From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jan 2 02:41:58 2007 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 07 21:41:58 -0500 Subject: Berlin Indology (2) Message-ID: <161227078982.23782.9672513024877742954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, Before Christmas, I have written to you about the planned closure of the Berlin Indology department. Many of you have already written to the Berlin authorities then. However, a second push may not hurt, as the case is by *no means* closed yet. So, please, those of you who have not yet written, do so now during the New Year break! As you know, we have set up an email address to which you can send your letters: berlinindology at gmail.com If you want to write *directly* to the various authorities concerned, please let me know, and I will then send you the proper addresses. [[ By the way, someone (the World Sanskrit Association?) should organize such efforts worldwide, as cutbacks in all classical fields, from Latin and Greek to Chinese, are and will be with us for a while. Eventually, even administrators and politicians will recognize that you have to know a bit more about the world's civilizations than just current elections and economics... ]] With many thanks and best wishes for 2007, Michael Witzel ----------------------- Please select from the following or compose a letter yourself. Just a few lines will do! ================================================= To whom it may concern: A few days weeks we have learned, worldwide, that Indian Studies in Berlin are to be abolished. I therefore write to you to request to preserve the world famous Institute of Indology. This does not only concern modern South Asian Studies, that still are well represented, but also ?Classical Indology? or ?Indian Philology?. Classical Indian Philology has existed at Berlin since 1821, and the discipline has been continued at Humboldt University even after 1945 by Professors Ruben and Morgenroth, as well as at the new institute of the Freie Universitaet (Prof.s Bruhn and Falk). Indology prominently deals with the indigenous weltanschauung, religion and history of thought, as they are represented in Sanskrit and other texts. Without this kind of background modern India cannot be understood. The study of the Sanskrit language, that was one of the official languages in India until 1835, is essential for any understanding of the immense number of Indian texts, from c. 1500 BCE until today, for example in fields such as traditional Indian medicine (Ayurveda) or indigenous Indian linguistics (Panini), a field that has supplied important stimuli to western linguistics. As is obvious even from this minimal discussion, modern India can only be understood -- just as any other important civilization ? if one studies its foundational texts and their impact during the medieval and modern periods. (I have constantly experienced that myself during my five years stay in South Asia.) Indian history, spanning some 5000 years, is becoming ever more important even in the political arena, for example during the past elections of 2004, which had the effect that even classical philologists were drawn into the fray, whether they wanted or not. Consequently, both modern as well a classical Indology are essential. We appeal to you to continue both branches of our discipline. Berlin Indology can look back, as mentioned, to a tradition spanning some 200 years. Many internationally famous scholars have emerged from Berlin. In the early 19th century, the study of India belonged to one of the major points of Humboldt?s reform of the German Universities. This should not be forgotten now that India receives great attention worldwide, as it grows economically and politically. Finally, it may be added that German Indology has a very good name in India, as Indologists have seriously endeavored to study Indian culture without prejudice. This long-standing and continuing attitude of German intellectuals towards Indian civilization has made Indology the best ambassador in India. It will be met with disbelief both in India and worldwide if the German capital will have to do without an Indian Institute. The preservation of the internationally highly regarded Indology of Berlin therefore is important also for the reputation of Berlin as a place of research. The demolition of Indology would also be unreasonable in view of the large collections of manuscripts of the Prussian State Library and the Academy, as well as the rich holdings of the Museum of Indian Art. It would bring 200 years of a great tradition to an end. We therefore sincerely appeal to you to preserve the discipline and its BA., M.A., and PhD. courses. Anything but this would be a disaster, a waste of material and human capital. Yours faithfully, X.Y. (official position) (address) (email) ================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 direct line: 496 2990 < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 2 23:50:05 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 07 17:50:05 -0600 Subject: Pancaratna of the MBh? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20070102194056.00bb8d00@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227078986.23782.11675899645192389736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhagavadgita+Bhagavadgitamala Visnusahasranama Anusmrti from the Anusasanaparvan of the Mbh. Bhismastavaraja Gajendramoksana -- Dominik Wujastyk On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Martin Gansten wrote: > On another list, someone asked what 'the 5 gems or most admired episodes of > the MBh' mentioned by Monier-Willams under the heading pa?caratna might be. > I suspect that some people on Indology would know? > > Martin Gansten > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 3 00:14:44 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 07 18:14:44 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227078988.23782.10874499526405682475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The closure of Skt and Hindi undergraduate teaching at Cambridge, and of Skt at Berlin, reminds us all of the crisis facing our field. There are sub-critical but still serious threats to the subject at many other universties in Germany and elsewhere. I would like to initiate here on the INDOLOGY list a conversation about the aims and values of Sanskrit teaching in western universities. If we can jointly develop a set of plausible arguments for the value and importance of our field, then I will post it as a document on the INDOLOGY website for general information, use and reference. I have been heartened and interested to see in The Economist's "The World in 2007" magazine, currently on the bookstands, p.39, an article that mentions the Cambridge closure in the following terms: In October 2006, for example, Cambridge University awarded India's Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, an honorary doctorate. As such things go, this was a fairly high-profile affair. There was much talk of the university's strong historica connection with India and its plans for deepening that relationship. There was less talk about the fact that, for the first time since the 1860s, new students are no longer able to take a BA in Hindi or Sanskrit. Surely a case not so much of looking to the future as turning your back on the past. If we can develop the right kind of statement about the value of classical Indian studies, I would be willing to explore the possibilities of releasing it as a press release, though I have no experience in doing this. As a start, I give here the three reasons I stated in my letter to the Berlin authorities for supporting the study and teaching of Sanskrit. ------------------------------------ 1. Indology is a field of study that offers students a rigorous intellectual training that is applicable to almost any of their future fields of study and employment. 2. It is a field full of fascination, since it introduces a beautiful, profound culture that viewed the world very differently from us today. This experience is inherently enlarging and promotes inter-cultural tolerance and understanding. 3. And Indology is a field that has assumed a special relevence and importance due to the contemporary international politics of global conflict in Asia, and the extraordinary economic rise of China and India. This is precisely a time where Asian studies, including Indology, should be encouraged and developed. ------------------------------------ I invite you to add to this list, or to change or improve the wording in any way you wish. I consider argument 3 to be the weakest from the internalist point of view. But the fortunes of Asian studies have often risen and fallen in tune with the politics of the day. Although it may be opportunistic, I think it is still worth attempting to make use of the contemporary fascination with the rise of India as a world economic power. Best, Dominik Wujastyk From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Tue Jan 2 18:40:56 2007 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 07 19:40:56 +0100 Subject: Pancaratna of the MBh? In-Reply-To: <20060623132958.74518.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227078984.23782.394957338843713747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On another list, someone asked what 'the 5 gems or most admired episodes of the MBh' mentioned by Monier-Willams under the heading pa?caratna might be. I suspect that some people on Indology would know? Martin Gansten From utkragh at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jan 3 05:09:17 2007 From: utkragh at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Ulrich Timme Kragh) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 00:09:17 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227078993.23782.11562544371768399094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quoting Dominik Wujastyk : > 2. It is a field full of fascination, since it introduces a beautiful, > profound culture that viewed the world very differently from us today. > This experience is inherently enlarging and promotes inter-cultural > tolerance and understanding. >???From an ethno-centric Western point of view, I think this second point could be nuanced somewhat as follows: Our society and culture has reached its present state through the choices we and our ancestors have made throughout its long political and cultural line of development. And just like the location of any spatial object can only be determined in relation to at least two other objects in space, the development and state of our society and culture - the choices we made and where that has taken us - can only be understood when seen from the perspective of other cultures. Studying cultures foreign to our own, determined by the different choices they made and the interests they took, is therefore absolutely essential to our self-understanding. It is a window into a different universe but just as much a mirror for ourselves. In this regard, the study of the historically two major cultural centers of the Far East, viz. India and China, is fundamental. Sincerely, Tim ______________________ Dr. Ulrich Timme Kragh Post-Doctoral Associate Dept. of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University 1 Bow St., Cambridge 02138 MA, USA Tel. +1-617 625 7078 From sb4 at SOAS.AC.UK Wed Jan 3 02:12:31 2007 From: sb4 at SOAS.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 02:12:31 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227078990.23782.12373659482864768228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 4. Some of the world's best books are in Sanskrit. From theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL Wed Jan 3 05:42:45 2007 From: theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL (Ithamar Theodor) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 07:42:45 +0200 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227078995.23782.11293061771479293056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is not unlikely that Skt. sources will play a greater role in the future, as sources for ideas concerning global ethics and nonviolence. Ithamar Theodor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominik Wujastyk" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 2:14 AM Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > The closure of Skt and Hindi undergraduate teaching at Cambridge, and of > Skt at Berlin, reminds us all of the crisis facing our field. There are > sub-critical but still serious threats to the subject at many other > universties in Germany and elsewhere. > > I would like to initiate here on the INDOLOGY list a conversation about > the aims and values of Sanskrit teaching in western universities. If we > can jointly develop a set of plausible arguments for the value and > importance of our field, then I will post it as a document on the INDOLOGY > website for general information, use and reference. > > I have been heartened and interested to see in The Economist's "The World > in 2007" magazine, currently on the bookstands, p.39, an article that > mentions the Cambridge closure in the following terms: > > In October 2006, for example, Cambridge University awarded India's Prime > Minister, Manmohan Singh, an honorary doctorate. As such things go, > this was a fairly high-profile affair. There was much talk of the > university's strong historica connection with India and its plans for > deepening that relationship. There was less talk about the fact that, > for the first time since the 1860s, new students are no longer able to > take a BA in Hindi or Sanskrit. Surely a case not so much of looking > to the future as turning your back on the past. > > If we can develop the right kind of statement about the value of classical > Indian studies, I would be willing to explore the possibilities of > releasing it as a press release, though I have no experience in doing > this. > > As a start, I give here the three reasons I stated in my letter to the > Berlin authorities for supporting the study and teaching of Sanskrit. > > > ------------------------------------ > > 1. Indology is a field of study that offers students a rigorous > intellectual training that is applicable to almost any of their future > fields of study and employment. > > 2. It is a field full of fascination, since it introduces a beautiful, > profound culture that viewed the world very differently from us today. > This experience is inherently enlarging and promotes inter-cultural > tolerance and understanding. > > 3. And Indology is a field that has assumed a special relevence and > importance due to the contemporary international politics of global > conflict in Asia, and the extraordinary economic rise of China and > India. This is precisely a time where Asian studies, including Indology, > should be encouraged and developed. > > ------------------------------------ > > I invite you to add to this list, or to change or improve the wording in > any way you wish. > > I consider argument 3 to be the weakest from the internalist point of > view. But the fortunes of Asian studies have often risen and fallen in > tune with the politics of the day. Although it may be opportunistic, I > think it is still worth attempting to make use of the contemporary > fascination with the rise of India as a world economic power. > > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Jan 3 15:49:45 2007 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 09:49:45 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <002e01c72f21$17735890$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079011.23782.1216999836207974392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I want to agree with Lars about the importance of integrating Sanskrit and Classical India studies into the broader institutional commitment to the study about South Asia. This is how we have built a strong program at the University of Texas at Austin. The other kinds of arguments for the importance of Sanskrit is what is called here "inside baseball"; it is preaching to the choir -- it will convince all of us, but not the institutional leaders who count. The question then is how to present Sanskrit studies as an essential and central part of the study about South Asia. This is not a difficult thing to do; and many suggestions have already been made. But infighting among South Asianists could be the greatest danger; and there are many examples of this in American institutions. When scholars of contemporary South Asia denigrate classical studies, or vice versa, we have a real problem. This is what eliminated Sanskrit from the University of Toronto many decades ago; and it has debilitated many other fine programs. But making Sanskrit a stand-alone area of importance will be a losing argument. It may feel good, but it will not produce results. And the blending of undergraduate education in South Asia into our programs is another essential component; many programs have suffered because of an exclusive focus on graduate education. We have to make the teaching about South Asia, not only to students who focus on the regions (majors in the American system) but also to the general student body, a significant part of the institutions undergraduate educational program. It difficult for the administration to ignore a department when it teaches over 2000 students each semester, as our does. Best, Patrick Olivelle At 11:22 AM +0100 1/3/07, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Some years ago, I and a few other people took the initiative to creating a >Nordic Institute in India. In connection with that, we developed a >comprehensive argument for the importance of Indic studies in general. In my >opinion, the importance of Sanskrit has to be argued within such a >framework. > >In our justification, we stressed >1. The economic importance of South Asia >2. The geopolitical importance of South Asia > Here, among other things, we discussed South Asia in the global >context and regional conflict as a global concern. >3. The cultural importance of South Asia. > The last point discussed South Asia as a cradle of cultures and >South Asia as a linguistic laboratory. > >Sanskrit and Sanskritic culture is the key to understanding Hinduism, but >also to a comprehensive understanding of Buddhism and Jainism. Understanding >Sanskrit and the cultural patterns and conflicts that are rooted in >Sanskritic culture is of the utmost importance for any in-depth >understanding of India and Hinduism in general. We cannot afford to ignore >it. In a broader political perspective, knowledge of Sanskrit therefore has >instrumental value. > >I am afraid that aesthetic arguments are not likely to win any battles. The >narrow-minded politicians and bureaucrats that define university policies >today deep down think in terms of instrumentality and mass production of >students (that, at least, is the case in Norway). Indologists need to get >out of their ivory towers, they need to participate in public debates and >show that Sanskritic studies have a practical aspect. Public debates on >India and South Asia should not be left to social anthropologists and >sociologists alone. > >Lars Martin Fosse > >(Incidentally, the Nordic Institute was realized and today is an integral >part of the study of South Asia in Scandinavia). > > >From: >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo - Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no >http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From phmaas at ARCOR.DE Wed Jan 3 09:29:46 2007 From: phmaas at ARCOR.DE (Philipp Maas) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 10:29:46 +0100 Subject: Aw: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227078998.23782.6426973580137671694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> a) Our knowledge of "the Indian culture", which is strongly dependent on Sanskrit sources, is still in its infancy. Thousands of texts are not yet published, and millions of manuscripts wait to be collated. We need much more?not less?specialists to work on these sources. b) The present position of Indology as an academic field located at the outskirts of the humanities is not a natural one. It is the result of the eurocentric attitude which governed Western university politics throughout their history. The relative weakness of Indology in terms of funding is not to be taken as a sign for a lack of importance, it is a sign for the need of improvement. Philipp Maas ----- Original Nachricht ---- Von: Dominik Wujastyk An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Datum: 03.01.2007 01:14 Betreff: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > The closure of Skt and Hindi undergraduate teaching at Cambridge, and of > Skt at Berlin, reminds us all of the crisis facing our field. There are > sub-critical but still serious threats to the subject at many other > universties in Germany and elsewhere. > > I would like to initiate here on the INDOLOGY list a conversation about > the aims and values of Sanskrit teaching in western universities. If we > can jointly develop a set of plausible arguments for the value and > importance of our field, then I will post it as a document on the INDOLOGY > website for general information, use and reference. > > I have been heartened and interested to see in The Economist's "The World > in 2007" magazine, currently on the bookstands, p.39, an article that > mentions the Cambridge closure in the following terms: > > In October 2006, for example, Cambridge University awarded India's Prime > Minister, Manmohan Singh, an honorary doctorate. As such things go, > this was a fairly high-profile affair. There was much talk of the > university's strong historica connection with India and its plans for > deepening that relationship. There was less talk about the fact that, > for the first time since the 1860s, new students are no longer able to > take a BA in Hindi or Sanskrit. Surely a case not so much of looking > to the future as turning your back on the past. > > If we can develop the right kind of statement about the value of classical > Indian studies, I would be willing to explore the possibilities of > releasing it as a press release, though I have no experience in doing > this. > > As a start, I give here the three reasons I stated in my letter to the > Berlin authorities for supporting the study and teaching of Sanskrit. > > > ------------------------------------ > > 1. Indology is a field of study that offers students a rigorous > intellectual training that is applicable to almost any of their future > fields of study and employment. > > 2. It is a field full of fascination, since it introduces a beautiful, > profound culture that viewed the world very differently from us today. > This experience is inherently enlarging and promotes inter-cultural > tolerance and understanding. > > 3. And Indology is a field that has assumed a special relevence and > importance due to the contemporary international politics of global > conflict in Asia, and the extraordinary economic rise of China and > India. This is precisely a time where Asian studies, including Indology, > should be encouraged and developed. > > ------------------------------------ > > I invite you to add to this list, or to change or improve the wording in > any way you wish. > > I consider argument 3 to be the weakest from the internalist point of > view. But the fortunes of Asian studies have often risen and fallen in > tune with the politics of the day. Although it may be opportunistic, I > think it is still worth attempting to make use of the contemporary > fascination with the rise of India as a world economic power. > > > Best, > Dominik Wujastyk > From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Wed Jan 3 10:22:37 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 11:22:37 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <001601c72efa$01507420$0101c80a@userb092132c7c> Message-ID: <161227079000.23782.8590112679474405602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some years ago, I and a few other people took the initiative to creating a Nordic Institute in India. In connection with that, we developed a comprehensive argument for the importance of Indic studies in general. In my opinion, the importance of Sanskrit has to be argued within such a framework. In our justification, we stressed 1. The economic importance of South Asia 2. The geopolitical importance of South Asia Here, among other things, we discussed South Asia in the global context and regional conflict as a global concern. 3. The cultural importance of South Asia. The last point discussed South Asia as a cradle of cultures and South Asia as a linguistic laboratory. Sanskrit and Sanskritic culture is the key to understanding Hinduism, but also to a comprehensive understanding of Buddhism and Jainism. Understanding Sanskrit and the cultural patterns and conflicts that are rooted in Sanskritic culture is of the utmost importance for any in-depth understanding of India and Hinduism in general. We cannot afford to ignore it. In a broader political perspective, knowledge of Sanskrit therefore has instrumental value. I am afraid that aesthetic arguments are not likely to win any battles. The narrow-minded politicians and bureaucrats that define university policies today deep down think in terms of instrumentality and mass production of students (that, at least, is the case in Norway). Indologists need to get out of their ivory towers, they need to participate in public debates and show that Sanskritic studies have a practical aspect. Public debates on India and South Asia should not be left to social anthropologists and sociologists alone. Lars Martin Fosse (Incidentally, the Nordic Institute was realized and today is an integral part of the study of South Asia in Scandinavia). From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From strauchi at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Wed Jan 3 10:30:44 2007 From: strauchi at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (strauchi@zedat.fu-berlin.de) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 11:30:44 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079002.23782.3341183224376622703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think we should differ between arguments for Indian studies in general (i.e the importance of India, Indian culture etc.) and arguments for classical Indology including Sanskrit etc. Both types of arguments are important, but we have to link them properly. Otherwise it is quite possible that we are said: Ok, we completely agree, Indian studies are important, but one minor point can be dismissed: these old-fashioned languages. As far as I understand the present-day situation in Indology and other antiquities, we have to argue especially in favour of our threatened classical departments. In this sense I suggest an argument like this: Only the profound knowledge of Sanskrit and Middle Indian languages and the literature transmitted in these languages opens the way to a deep and differentiated understanding of Indian culture. Ingo Strauch > From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jan 3 19:41:20 2007 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 11:41:20 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079013.23782.6050687520877008871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to second what Patrick says. In my experience at Berkeley, Sanskrit is an integral and essential part of our South Asia program -- but it is only one of many South Asian languages we teach (including Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Tamil, Bengali, and soon, I hope, Telugu). If we argued for a department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies or something of the sort, the administration would not pay us any heed at all. After all, while the importance of Latin for the study of the West is indisputable, we do not find departments of Latin and European Studies anywhere. I would add to Patrick's observation that it is important to involve local South Asian communities in our programs. At Berkeley, we have raised money from the Tamil, Telugu, Bengali, and Punjabi communities for our programs. I did approach some members of the community with the hope that they would raise money for Sanskrit, but they demurred because we do not adhere to their Hindu(tva) tenets. In reading over the suggestions on this list, I find a sort of nostalgia -- for the time when Sanskrit and South Asian Studies were synonymous. Much fine work was done then, but times have changed, and at most institutions Sanskrit will only be supported as part of a broader South Asian Program, including modern South Asia and modern languages. It's worth remarking that about 1.5 billion people live in South Asia -- more than Europe, North and South America combined. It is easier to argue with deans for Hindi/Urdu, the third most widely spoken language in the world, than it is for Sanskrit, whom 500 people claimed to speak in the last census. But it is possible (and necessary) to make a compelling case for Sanskrit as part of a broader program. George Hart On Jan 3, 2007, at 7:49 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > I want to agree with Lars about the importance of integrating > Sanskrit and Classical India studies into the broader institutional > commitment to the study about South Asia. This is how we have built > a strong program at the University of Texas at Austin. The other > kinds of arguments for the importance of Sanskrit is what is called > here "inside baseball"; it is preaching to the choir -- it will > convince all of us, but not the institutional leaders who count. > The question then is how to present Sanskrit studies as an > essential and central part of the study about South Asia. This is > not a difficult thing to do; and many suggestions have already been > made. But infighting among South Asianists could be the greatest > danger; and there are many examples of this in American > institutions. When scholars of contemporary South Asia denigrate > classical studies, or vice versa, we have a real problem. This is > what eliminated Sanskrit from the University of Toronto many > decades ago; and it has debilitated many other fine programs. > > But making Sanskrit a stand-alone area of importance will be a > losing argument. It may feel good, but it will not produce results. > > And the blending of undergraduate education in South Asia into our > programs is another essential component; many programs have > suffered because of an exclusive focus on graduate education. We > have to make the teaching about South Asia, not only to students > who focus on the regions (majors in the American system) but also > to the general student body, a significant part of the institutions > undergraduate educational program. It difficult for the > administration to ignore a department when it teaches over 2000 > students each semester, as our does. > > Best, > > Patrick Olivelle > > > > At 11:22 AM +0100 1/3/07, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >> Some years ago, I and a few other people took the initiative to >> creating a >> Nordic Institute in India. In connection with that, we developed a >> comprehensive argument for the importance of Indic studies in >> general. In my >> opinion, the importance of Sanskrit has to be argued within such a >> framework. >> >> In our justification, we stressed >> 1. The economic importance of South Asia >> 2. The geopolitical importance of South Asia >> Here, among other things, we discussed South Asia in the global >> context and regional conflict as a global concern. >> 3. The cultural importance of South Asia. >> The last point discussed South Asia as a cradle of cultures and >> South Asia as a linguistic laboratory. >> >> Sanskrit and Sanskritic culture is the key to understanding >> Hinduism, but >> also to a comprehensive understanding of Buddhism and Jainism. >> Understanding >> Sanskrit and the cultural patterns and conflicts that are rooted in >> Sanskritic culture is of the utmost importance for any in-depth >> understanding of India and Hinduism in general. We cannot afford >> to ignore >> it. In a broader political perspective, knowledge of Sanskrit >> therefore has >> instrumental value. >> >> I am afraid that aesthetic arguments are not likely to win any >> battles. The >> narrow-minded politicians and bureaucrats that define university >> policies >> today deep down think in terms of instrumentality and mass >> production of >> students (that, at least, is the case in Norway). Indologists need >> to get >> out of their ivory towers, they need to participate in public >> debates and >> show that Sanskritic studies have a practical aspect. Public >> debates on >> India and South Asia should not be left to social anthropologists and >> sociologists alone. >> >> Lars Martin Fosse >> >> (Incidentally, the Nordic Institute was realized and today is an >> integral >> part of the study of South Asia in Scandinavia). >> >> >> From: >> Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >> 0674 Oslo - Norway >> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 >> Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >> E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no >> http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 3 11:46:07 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 12:46:07 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <5e8f1342400b0e3ed01b9a898d06fbdc@helsinki.fi> Message-ID: <161227079008.23782.18223580677693597467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In discussions such as this it can be helpful to know what is already there. A still rudimentary collection of position papers can be found here: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#Indolpos For the wider context see: Hans Ulrich GUMRECHT: The powers of philology.Urbana : University of Illinois Press 2003 (German edition: Die Macht der Philology. Frankfurt 2003) Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Wed Jan 3 10:54:35 2007 From: klaus.karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 12:54:35 +0200 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <002e01c72f21$17735890$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079005.23782.15482823059175458699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I rather agree with Lars Martin. It is not much use to say that "Indology is a field of study that offers students a rigorous intellectual training that is applicable to almost any of their future fields of study and employment", many other fields are capable of the same claim. The fascination of the study and the aesthetic value are also poor arguments. What matters is the importance of India (and South Asia) and the essential role of Sanskrit in understanding it. To cultural and religious arguments we could also add linguistics and history -- everywhere Sanskrit is important. Klaus Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Professor of South Asian and Indoeuropean Studies Institute for Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B) 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND Tel +358-(0)9-191 22674 Fax +358-(0)9-191 23100 Email?Klaus.Karttunen at helsinki.fi From HWTULL at MSN.COM Wed Jan 3 20:08:09 2007 From: HWTULL at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 15:08:09 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079016.23782.13500219353941368012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree wholeheartedly with Patrick. From an institutional standpoint, I've always thought it important to stress that the study of India (and this certainly applies to the study of Sanskrit and Sanskrit texts) is hardly a "completed" field. It is my understanding that thousands of manuscripts remain unedited and untranslated, and many that have been translated are provisional or partial; indeed, the RV, arguably the oldest living textual tradition falls into this latter category (at least for the English-speaking world). Additionally, administrators need to know that Sanskritists in western institutions are trained far too late; whereas students of classical languages begin their training as high school students--or at the latest as undergraduates--Sanskrit students invariably begin their studies in graduate school. I've been associated with a number of American academic institutions over the years, and I have never found a lack of undergraduate interest in classical Indian studies (though I have consistently seen a lack of institutional support). Now, despite Patrick's excellent advice, I cannot resist suggesting what I consider unique about the study of Sanskrit. Sanskrit's perfected structure introduces humanities students to a rigorous way of thinking that simply does not exist in other parts of the humanities curriculum (at best, it is approximated in studying other languages). The closest concept is that of the algorithm, the step-by-step procedures used by mathematicians to solve problems. For first-year Sanskrit students, at least, "learning" Sanskrit is really a matter of learning sets of rules, and gaining the necessary mental sophistication to understand how and when to apply those rules. In my experience, math, physics, and computer science students always seem to move more quickly than students from other disciplines in first-year Sanskrit--I think because they are already trained to think algorithmically. So, I would say that studying Sanskrit really does offer something unique for humanities students in the realm of high-level mental training and discipline. Herman Tull Non-affiliated ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Olivelle To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit I want to agree with Lars about the importance of integrating Sanskrit and Classical India studies into the broader institutional commitment to the study about South Asia. This is how we have built a strong program at the University of Texas at Austin. The other kinds of arguments for the importance of Sanskrit is what is called here "inside baseball"; it is preaching to the choir -- it will convince all of us, but not the institutional leaders who count. The question then is how to present Sanskrit studies as an essential and central part of the study about South Asia. This is not a difficult thing to do; and many suggestions have already been made. But infighting among South Asianists could be the greatest danger; and there are many examples of this in American institutions. When scholars of contemporary South Asia denigrate classical studies, or vice versa, we have a real problem. This is what eliminated Sanskrit from the University of Toronto many decades ago; and it has debilitated many other fine programs. But making Sanskrit a stand-alone area of importance will be a losing argument. It may feel good, but it will not produce results. And the blending of undergraduate education in South Asia into our programs is another essential component; many programs have suffered because of an exclusive focus on graduate education. We have to make the teaching about South Asia, not only to students who focus on the regions (majors in the American system) but also to the general student body, a significant part of the institutions undergraduate educational program. It difficult for the administration to ignore a department when it teaches over 2000 students each semester, as our does. Best, Patrick Olivelle At 11:22 AM +0100 1/3/07, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Some years ago, I and a few other people took the initiative to creating a >Nordic Institute in India. In connection with that, we developed a >comprehensive argument for the importance of Indic studies in general. In my >opinion, the importance of Sanskrit has to be argued within such a >framework. > >In our justification, we stressed >1. The economic importance of South Asia >2. The geopolitical importance of South Asia > Here, among other things, we discussed South Asia in the global >context and regional conflict as a global concern. >3. The cultural importance of South Asia. > The last point discussed South Asia as a cradle of cultures and >South Asia as a linguistic laboratory. > >Sanskrit and Sanskritic culture is the key to understanding Hinduism, but >also to a comprehensive understanding of Buddhism and Jainism. Understanding >Sanskrit and the cultural patterns and conflicts that are rooted in >Sanskritic culture is of the utmost importance for any in-depth >understanding of India and Hinduism in general. We cannot afford to ignore >it. In a broader political perspective, knowledge of Sanskrit therefore has >instrumental value. > >I am afraid that aesthetic arguments are not likely to win any battles. The >narrow-minded politicians and bureaucrats that define university policies >today deep down think in terms of instrumentality and mass production of >students (that, at least, is the case in Norway). Indologists need to get >out of their ivory towers, they need to participate in public debates and >show that Sanskritic studies have a practical aspect. Public debates on >India and South Asia should not be left to social anthropologists and >sociologists alone. > >Lars Martin Fosse > >(Incidentally, the Nordic Institute was realized and today is an integral >part of the study of South Asia in Scandinavia). > > >From: >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo - Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no >http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jan 3 21:35:34 2007 From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 15:35:34 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079020.23782.6414261576277308006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, I have been following today?s discussion with great interest: this discussion is past due among members of our field, and I think that there has been a good start to it today. Dominik?s idea of posting a sort of ?mission statement? on the INDOLOGY web site is a commendable one, and I would like to add another suggestion into the discussion. While it is natural to feel rancor when your livelihood is threatened, I don?t think that demonizing the various deans, chancellors, provosts etc. who work at all of our institutions is really productive: it is their job to look to the fiscal bottom line, just as it is our job to teach and to research. The complaints from administrative types that I have most frequently encountered about the study (especially the linguistic study) of premodern India are two: low student enrollment beyond the most elementary level, and the lack of high-profile, income-generating research projects. The caricature (and caricature it is) that they have of the indologist is a misanthrope who resents undergraduate teaching, and who works over her own arcane research in a vacuum from the larger intellectual life of the university. Of course, this simply isn?t true. A great many scholars of early India of my acquaintance are very gifted and successful teachers, at all levels of instruction. And some of the most intrinsically valuable recent work in the field has been the result of long-term, multiple-investigator projects that more closely resemble research in the natural and social sciences than the traditional indological monograph. The books and studies produced from places like Groningen, Halle, Chicago et cetera are very good Indology and present a model of research funding that is increasingly going to be attractive to university administrators the world over. This is where my suggestion comes in. This listserve has proven to be an extremely effective means of communication and tool to foster discussion within members of our field. I would like to propose that we further extend this by having the INDOLOGY site house an archive of a.) syllabi and other pedagogical materials that members of the list have successfully used and b.) successful applications for research grants (or even unsuccessful applications with reviewers comments, if anyone would be so selfless). In addition to allowing us to take stock of our core interests and professional principles, as Dominik rightly suggests, this would help us to improve our practices as teachers and as researchers. Many of our colleagues work in institutions where they are the only indologist, or one of a small handful, and this would be a great help for those who don?t have the luxury of existing courses they can adopt, or the direct advice of fellow workers in the field. Speaking as someone at the beginning of my research career, it would be extremely useful to have a model of a successful application to the NSF/AHRC/DFG etc as a way to help structure my own research, and (again, this is just my editorializing) I would be especially interested in exploring the collective approach used so successfully by some of our colleagues. This is a somewhat tricky subject, I realize (more so than syllabi) since research proposals are proprietary documents, but I think that it would be easy enough to have a password protected archive the use of which would be limited to approved members of the list. Other attempts at this already exist: there is the Project South Asia page (http://projectsouthasia.sdstate.edu/ focusing on the area-studies field as a whole), while my colleague Manan Ahmed at the University of Chicago has proposed a more exhaustive, wiki-based collection of teaching materials, including images, lecture notes, etc. But one dedicated to our field would obviously be all the more useful. Every effort needs to be made to ensure that Indology and its allied subjects are seen for what they are, crucial areas of global humanistic study. We may do this by making our case in as many public fora as possible, but also by laboring to ensure that our work as teachers and as researchers are as principled and as compelling as any branch of knowledge. A very happy new year to you all, Whitney From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Wed Jan 3 20:40:50 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 07 21:40:50 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079018.23782.4193365092190332735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Herman Tull wrote: > Now, despite Patrick's excellent advice, I cannot resist > suggesting what I consider unique about the study of > Sanskrit. Sanskrit's perfected structure introduces > humanities students to a rigorous way of thinking that simply > does not exist in other parts of the humanities curriculum > (at best, it is approximated in studying other languages). I have heard a similar argument made in favour of Latin. In fact, the same argument can be made for such languages as Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish, just to mention a few. All these languages enforce a rigorous way of thinking, indeed both Finnish and Hungarian do so better than Sanskrit, which both Finnish and Hungarian outshine in terms of "perfection". If you are thinking of cultural content associated with Sanskrit, its main attraction is its profound "otherness", not its logical structure. Seen from a Western point of view, Sanskritic culture is the greatest and most fascinating "alternative" intellectual laboratory we can imagine. Thus, the study of Sanskrit contributes to our own self-understanding just as well as to our understanding of India, and indeed to the understanding of mankind. However, such philosophical values are of little consequence to the hard-nosed people who run our universities these days. They are out there like hungry dogs threatening to kill us, and we have to throw them a bone or two, otherwise we will not be able to pursue the really interesting questions we love so much. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Herman Tull > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 9:08 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > I agree wholeheartedly with Patrick. From an institutional > standpoint, I've always thought it important to stress that > the study of India (and this certainly applies to the study > of Sanskrit and Sanskrit texts) is hardly a "completed" > field. It is my understanding that thousands of manuscripts > remain unedited and untranslated, and many that have been > translated are provisional or partial; indeed, the RV, > arguably the oldest living textual tradition falls into this > latter category (at least for the English-speaking world). > Additionally, administrators need to know that Sanskritists > in western institutions are trained far too late; whereas > students of classical languages begin their training as high > school students--or at the latest as undergraduates--Sanskrit > students invariably begin their studies in graduate school. > I've been associated with a number of American academic > institutions over the years, and I have never found a lack of > undergraduate interest in classical Indian studies (though I > have consistently seen a lack of institutional support). > > Now, despite Patrick's excellent advice, I cannot resist > suggesting what I consider unique about the study of > Sanskrit. Sanskrit's perfected structure introduces > humanities students to a rigorous way of thinking that simply > does not exist in other parts of the humanities curriculum > (at best, it is approximated in studying other languages). > The closest concept is that of the algorithm, the > step-by-step procedures used by mathematicians to solve > problems. For first-year Sanskrit students, at least, > "learning" Sanskrit is really a matter of learning sets of > rules, and gaining the necessary mental sophistication to > understand how and when to apply those rules. In my > experience, math, physics, and computer science students > always seem to move more quickly than students from other > disciplines in first-year Sanskrit--I think because they are > already trained to think algorithmically. So, I would say > that studying Sanskrit really does offer something unique for > humanities students in the realm of high-level mental > training and discipline. > > Herman Tull > Non-affiliated > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Patrick Olivelle > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 10:49 AM > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > > I want to agree with Lars about the importance of integrating > Sanskrit and Classical India studies into the broader institutional > commitment to the study about South Asia. This is how we > have built a > strong program at the University of Texas at Austin. The other kinds > of arguments for the importance of Sanskrit is what is called here > "inside baseball"; it is preaching to the choir -- it will convince > all of us, but not the institutional leaders who count. The question > then is how to present Sanskrit studies as an essential and central > part of the study about South Asia. This is not a difficult thing to > do; and many suggestions have already been made. But > infighting among > South Asianists could be the greatest danger; and there are many > examples of this in American institutions. When scholars of > contemporary South Asia denigrate classical studies, or vice versa, > we have a real problem. This is what eliminated Sanskrit from the > University of Toronto many decades ago; and it has debilitated many > other fine programs. > > But making Sanskrit a stand-alone area of importance will > be a losing > argument. It may feel good, but it will not produce results. > > And the blending of undergraduate education in South Asia into our > programs is another essential component; many programs have suffered > because of an exclusive focus on graduate education. We have to make > the teaching about South Asia, not only to students who focus on the > regions (majors in the American system) but also to the general > student body, a significant part of the institutions undergraduate > educational program. It difficult for the administration to ignore a > department when it teaches over 2000 students each semester, as our > does. > > Best, > > Patrick Olivelle > > > > At 11:22 AM +0100 1/3/07, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >Some years ago, I and a few other people took the > initiative to creating a > >Nordic Institute in India. In connection with that, we developed a > >comprehensive argument for the importance of Indic studies > in general. In my > >opinion, the importance of Sanskrit has to be argued within such a > >framework. > > > >In our justification, we stressed > >1. The economic importance of South Asia > >2. The geopolitical importance of South Asia > > Here, among other things, we discussed South Asia in the global > >context and regional conflict as a global concern. > >3. The cultural importance of South Asia. > > The last point discussed South Asia as a cradle of cultures and > >South Asia as a linguistic laboratory. > > > >Sanskrit and Sanskritic culture is the key to > understanding Hinduism, but > >also to a comprehensive understanding of Buddhism and > Jainism. Understanding > >Sanskrit and the cultural patterns and conflicts that are rooted in > >Sanskritic culture is of the utmost importance for any in-depth > >understanding of India and Hinduism in general. We cannot > afford to ignore > >it. In a broader political perspective, knowledge of > Sanskrit therefore has > >instrumental value. > > > >I am afraid that aesthetic arguments are not likely to win > any battles. The > >narrow-minded politicians and bureaucrats that define > university policies > >today deep down think in terms of instrumentality and mass > production of > >students (that, at least, is the case in Norway). > Indologists need to get > >out of their ivory towers, they need to participate in > public debates and > >show that Sanskritic studies have a practical aspect. > Public debates on > >India and South Asia should not be left to social > anthropologists and > >sociologists alone. > > > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > >(Incidentally, the Nordic Institute was realized and today > is an integral > >part of the study of South Asia in Scandinavia). > > > > > >From: > >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > >0674 Oslo - Norway > >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > >E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no > >http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 08:36:07 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 00:36:07 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079024.23782.3452858812569069111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, You are bringing up an important point where the Indology List (and the proposed FAQ section) can perform a central role. In the many reactions one important aspect remained unmentioned. If, as a group representing classical Indology, we want to go courageously forward "making the argument for sanskrit" we should also look courageously at the (more distant and more recent) past, without trying to escape or evade it in a cowardish and hypocrit way. Let me illustrate the problem by quoting selectively from Jean Filliozat's article "Tamil and Sanskrit in South India" (which appeared in Tamil Culture IV, 1955; repr. in Laghu-prabandhah, Leiden: Brill 1974): "The first knowledge of Indian literatures in Europe came chiefly from South India and from Dravidian sources, particularly from Malayalam and Tamil speaking peoples. European missionaries were chiefly working in Tamilnad ... It was at the end of the eighteenth century that the situation changed. At that time, *for political reasons, the main centre of activity of the Europeans in India passed from South India to Calcutta.* [Jean Filliozat's emphasis] Here, Sanskrit was dominant ... The other main reason for a relative neglect was not thus accidental. It was *the consequence of a gradual rise of racial theories.* [Jean Filliozat's emphasis] Preparing these, first arose ideas of a primitive purity of humanity and a very ancient and poetical language like Sanskrit was thought to be a worthy representative of such primitive purity. ... " In other words, whether we are happy with it or not, the heritage of South Asian and Sanskrit studies within the context of the cultural and political history of Europe is of quite mixed nature. See in this context also : Sheldon Pollock's "Deep Orientalism? Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj" in: Breckenridge & van der Veer 1993: 77?133; a German translation of this article by Martin Pfeiffer appeared on pages 335-371 of the volume: S. Conrad & S. Randeria (ed.) Jenseits des Eurozentrismus. Postkoloniale Perspektiven in den Geschichts- und Kulturwissenschaften. Frankfurt: Campus-Verlag 2002. Now there comes an important remark by Jean Filliozat from the mentioned article: "In spite of the discredit into which have fallen the racial ideas, their effect on the formation of conceptions has not yet vanished in all circles of Indologists." In other words, as I see it, certain phenomena which have been explained by racial theories before WWII are still appearing as phenomena but the old racial ideas are cut off because of their political undesirability leaving us with unexplained phenomena still requiring either redefinition or an explanation. This is clear in the work of several European indologists of end 19th-beginning 20th century, including this great scholar with somewhat clumsy political insight, Erich Frauwallner. My grappling with this problem can be found in two articles: "Why did rationality thrive, but hardly survive in Kapila's "System"? On the pramaa.nas, rationality and irrationality in Saa.mkhya (Part I)." Asiatische Studien / ?tudes Asiatiques 53.3 (1999): 491-512. and "'Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the pramaa.nas in the history of Saa.mkhya." ?tudes de Lettres 2001.3: La rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia: 165-194. Another angle to the same problem is what I call "the genetic explanation for the wonder that was India". After having been "out" for some post-WWII decades genetic explanations are experiencing a come back in technologically more advanced ways but not necessarily in conceptually more advanced ways. A more fruitful direction than the "genetic" one is a "memetic" explanation, as I argued in: "Memetics of Vedic Ritual, Morphology of the Agnistoma." In: The Vedas: Texts, Language and Ritual, (ed. by Griffiths and Houben): 385-415. Groningen : Egbert Forsten, 2004. *prabandha-gaurava-bhayaan neha pratanyate, tata evaavadhaaryam.* In other words, perhaps not in stepping forward to university authorities etc. but as a necessary inhouse exercise, not only political aspects of Indology's past are to be addressed, but also the scholarly, scientific and comparative problematic phenomena themselves, whether real or not, that were once conveniently explained by convenient myths -- myths which are still quite alive and as such well-known to the larger public including university authorities etc... Jan Houben Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d'Etudes, Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, A la Sorbonne, 45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. J_E_M_Houben at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From acollins at GCI.NET Thu Jan 4 12:35:16 2007 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 03:35:16 -0900 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <1H2Qv5-1z36sy0@fwd33.sul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227079044.23782.5916117582335035686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aside from "Orientalism" (Pollock, and I add Ronald Inden, his colleague at Chicago for many years), the obstacle to Sanskrit (and this applies to Tamil as well) is our failure to use it culturally, whether in reference to the India of today or the West (or China for that matter). Classical Indian thought is eminently useful, and was used for instance in the popular culture of the sixties and before. Less controversially, yogic and Buddhist practices are part of mainstream psychotherapy (I refer to biofeedback and meditation, particularly mindfulness). Marriott's 3-M Samkhya-based analysis of Indian society has enormous practical implications for contemporary Indian social thought, though he has not written much if anything about this, and his Indian-based ideas are even relevant outside India. Buddhist thinking has been inspirational in the development of complexity theory (Francisco Varela, etc.), rightfully in my view. The general point is that Sanskrit culture (and Tamil) is good to think with, both in contemporary India and outside the subcontinent. My own work focuses on a critical culture theory drawn partly from psychoanalysis, partly from Samkhya-yoga. Again, the Indian ideas are useful today. I note that Gerald Larson has made this point for years with reference to philosophy. Al Collins From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 12:31:24 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 04:31:24 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <459CE93C.30831.B19B0A@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079042.23782.7127207145907218904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reinhold, With "few years ago" you are really referring to my report of the DMG meeting in 1995, more than TEN years ago? It follows below. If you read it in a detached scholarly mind you will see that I refer to "selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft" NOT to support the claims made in any article (the one to which I refer in that article I called and considered provocative and it has proven its healthy provocative character ever since) but to illustrate the promising continuity with a discontinuous past which was one of the topics of that memorable meeting in Leipzig -- the first DMG meeting in Leipzig after WWII, and a kind of Neugr?ndung for the all-Germany DMG after decades of interruption. Let me cite one of the "notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft" namely the one in Band 99 for the years 1945-1949 which appeared in 1950: "Bericht ?ber die Neugr?ndung der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft (Mainz e.V.): Als Folge der Besetzung Deutschlands im Mai 1945 musste die Deutsche Morgenl?ndsische Gesellschaft, die ihren Sitz in Leipzig hatte, und deren Gesch?ftsf?hrung sich in Berlin im Geb?ude der (ehemals Preussischen) Akademie der Wissenschaften befand, ihre wissenschaftliche T?tigkeit unterbrechen ... " To the "essential reading for a well-informed discussion on this sensitive topic" I now propose to add Beyond Orientalism: The Work of Wilhelm Halbfass and its Impact on Indian and Cross-Cultural Studies, ed. by Eli Franco and Karin Preisendanz; See also my review article of Beyond Orientalism, ed. by K. Preisendanz and E. Franco, Amsterdam 1997): Orientalism, its critique, and beyond." IIAS-Newsletter, no. 15 p. 16. International Institute for Asian Studies, 1998. Further my two articles on Samkhya which I mentioned earlier. And as an article with useful bibliographic references but otherwise marred by distortive readings we may now also add Reinhold Gruenendahls article. Cheers, Jan Houben *** from IIAS Newsletter no. 7 Winter 1996 *** 25-29 September 1995 Leipzig, Germany Indology at the 26th Deutscher Orientalistentag Promising continuity with a discontinuous past. On 25-29 September 1995 the 26th Deutscher Orientalistentag (German Orientalist Meeting) took place in Leipzig, the city which, with neighbouring Halle, became the seat of the newly founded German Oriental Society (DMG, Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft) exactly 150 years ago. The aim of the DMG to which the founders in 1845 agreed was "to promote all aspects of the knowledge of Asia and of the countries closely related to it in every aspect, and to propagate participation of this in wider circles. Hence the Society will deal not only with oriental literature ('morgenl?ndische Literatur') but also with the history of these countries and the research of their situation both earlier and more recent times." By Jan E.M. Houben This and other information about the history of the DMG can be found in a recently published booklet on the history of the Society (Die Anf?nge der Deutschen Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, 1995). Another booklet also published last year by the society, Die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft, is devoted more to its present activities. According to this second booklet (p. 7), the 'knowledge' of Asia and related countries which the Society has traditionally sought to promote concentrates on the knowledge of languages, literatures, history, religions and philosophies, forms of law and society, archaeology, and the art and material culture of the people living in these areas. Nowadays, however, social and political scientific problems from the past and present are tending to receive the bulk of the attention. The booklet mentions 21 disciplinary areas, ranging from Japanology to Africanistics. Since its inception, many non-Germans have become members of this learned society, just as the founding fathers of the Society themselves were often members of other Orientalist societies such as the Asiatic Societies in Paris, London, and Calcutta. The first learned Orientalist society without explicit missionary intentions, incidentally, was the Dutch Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen (Batavian Society of Arts and Sciences), founded in 1779 in Batavia (present-day Jakarta) in what was then the Dutch colony of the East Indies. The British followed in 1784 with the foundation of the Asiatic Society of Bengal. The next Asiatic Societies were founded after the Napoleonic wars in Paris (1822) and London (1823). The German Tradition of Indology The present meeting of the German Oriental Society was the 26th in a series of meetings which started in 1921, also in Leipzig, and which have taken place regularly since then at intervals of a few years. The meeting opened on 25 September with an address by Professor Annemarie Schimmel (Prof. Em. Harvard University/Bonn), after which the conference was split into different disciplinary areas (Fachgruppen) and work groups (Arbeitskreise). As far as my own area of indology is concerned, the contributions of the participants were, generally speaking, qualitatively and quantitatively impressive. Attention was directed mainly towards the above- mentioned traditional concerns of languages, literatures, history, religions and philosophies, to a lesser extent to forms of law and society in the South Asian past. The contributions shed light on the progress of solid, mainly philological, research in the areas of Sanskrit etymology, Vedic literature and culture, manuscriptology, Indian medicine, Indian and Buddhist texts and philosophies, as well as on early German missionaries in South India. The concentration on the languages and literatures, especially the emphasis given to the ancient sources, may seem esoteric to non-indologists, but is in itself justified in view of the enormous amount of important material of which a great part is still to be made accessible on the basis of manuscripts. Several of the contributions by indologists at the 'Orientalistentag' concerned texts and manuscripts of the so-called Turfan Collection, with which German indologists have had a special bond since Heinrich L?ders and Albert Gr?nwedel von Le Coq started their expeditions to the Turfan Oasis in Chinese Turkestan in 1902-1914. The lexicographic particularities of these texts are the subject of a German project, now in progress, for a special multi-volume dictionary of the Sanskrit texts in the Turfan Collection. Another enormous collection of material has been made in a cooperative enterprise between Germany and Nepal. Since 1970 more than 150,000 manuscripts comprising almost 5,000,000 pages have been filmed in this project under the guidance of Prof. Albrecht Wezler (Hamburg). The original microfilms are kept in Nepal, copies of the films have been sent to Berlin. None of the c. 30 contributions at this 26th meeting dealt directly with recent modern political or social themes, nor did modern theoretical developments in linguistic sciences attract much interest. Nevertheless, the rich material which generations of German indologists have been making available for scholarly research will be of great value for providing historical dimensions to modern theories in the fields of social, linguistic, political, and religious sciences. The continuity between German indology and its glorious past -- B?htlingk and Roth's Petersburger Dictionary (1850-1875) and Wackernagels Altindische Grammatik (1896) are still standard works for Indologists as well as for linguists, to mention just two examples -- was physically visible in the presence at the conference of two senior, leading scholars of German indology -- indeed of indology in general -- namely Profs. Wilhelm Rau and Paul Thieme, both actively participating in the discussions (the latter even presented a contribution). Vergangenheit Bewaltigung To the extent that indology in general owes a great debt to the contributions of German indology, it also has to come to terms with some of the more problematic aspects of the history of the latter. I am referring here, of course, to the positive relations which some indologists at least maintained with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' before and during the period of the Second World War period. Essential reading for a well-informed discussion on this sensitive topic should comprise S. Pollock's provocative "Deep Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj" (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, 1993), passages from Halbfass' India and Europe (Albany, 1988), and selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft. Besides the discontinuity of the years 1945-48 (on 4-6 June 1948 the German Oriental Society was re-founded in Mainz), another hiatus in the history of the Society was clearly felt in Leipzig: East German (DDR) indologists and orientalists were never officially represented in the refounded Oriental Society. The September 1995 DMG meeting in Leipzig was the first held on former DDR territory since the foundation of this state in 1949 and its collapse forty years later. Under the theme of continuity and the discontinuous past of Germany and German indology, two contributions concerning the historiography of indology deserve a special mention. Dr. Luitgard Soni (Univ. of Marburg) reported on her investigations into the scholarly and personal career of a remarkable personage in German indology, Charlotte Krause who went to India as a young woman to do research on the Jaina tradition in the 1920s, and remained there till her death in 1980; the other contribution was the presentation of the plans to publish a "Who's Who in Western Indology" by Dr. Klaus Karttunen (Univ. of Helsinki, Finland), who has already collected a huge amount of data on well-known and less well-known Western indologists of the past. Contributions such as these show that Indology is reaching maturity; it is only to be hoped that a well-informed discussion of the above-mentioned, more problematic sides of its history, and more generally of the problems of Orientalism and of indology "beyond Orientalism" (a book with this title in honour of Prof. W. Halbfass is now being edited by Drs. K. Preisendanz and E. Franco), will not be shunned either. Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d'Etudes, Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, A la Sorbonne, 45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. J_E_M_Houben at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 12:35:58 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 04:35:58 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <1H2Qv5-1z36sy0@fwd33.sul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227079046.23782.16484804978447082047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, bravo, see my review article of Beyond Orientalism (ed. by K. Preisendanz and E. Franco, Amsterdam 1997): Orientalism, its critique, and beyond." IIAS-Newsletter, no. 15 p. 16. International Institute for Asian Studies, 1998. JH --- Walter Slaje wrote: > > In my view, the distortive and illusory > claims made about the > > presumed history of "Orientalism" in general > and Indology in particular are the > > single most corruptive factor for the > reputation of these fields of learning. > > Bravo! > > WS > > -------------------------------- > Prof Dr Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum > et > provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam > gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, > qua > salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris > MCMLXXXIII. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 14:40:43 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 06:40:43 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079056.23782.2574689032457691171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, In view of the turn the discussion of the explosively sensitive topic of the history of Indology is taking it is probably indeed better to face this problem in a trans-national context and keep it for a separate thread (and a section in the planned Indology FAQ). Probably no general rule can be stated about how to defend and promote the study of Sanskrit in different countries and in different situations. If Sanskrit studies are supported by a steady flow of state subsidy the arguments are indeed to be addressed to the university policy makers. If universities are already habituated to attract and use private sources a full-fledged market oriented approach is to be adopted. In either case it does not seem useful to argue for Sanskrit in isolation simply because in the several millennia of its history it always has been in interaction with non-sanskritic languages, cultures and literatures. While many may feel hesitant to adopt a "marketing" approach for Sanskrit (and other ancient and modern languages of the Indian subcontinent) because this might turn out to be self-defiant (at the end there is no direct economic advantage to be expected from Sanskrit), a good argument in favor of keeping Sanskrit provisions at universities even with low student enrollment is thoroughly economic: while oak bark is measured per kg, cinnamon is measured per gram. In other words the student number criteria valid for psychology or sociology or religious studies cannot be applied to what are "small" languages at our universities but languages with a richer literature and/or more speakers than many of the European languages except English. Cheers, JH --- Antonio Ferreira-Jardim wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > As interesting as a discussion about > orientalism in the context of the > history of western research on sanskrit may be > - it would appear to me > to be very tangential to the real issue at hand > which is precisely how > to make an effective argument for the retention > of sanskrit teaching. > > For many Indologists, the language and practice > of politics and > economics does not come easily. However, I > truly believe that in order > to preserve (and hopefully even grow) the > teaching of sanskrit at > universities around the world, Indologists need > to embrace modern > fiscal arguments based on Markets and > Marketing. Having worked in both > a University bureaucratic environment and in a > major political party > environment, from my own experience I am > personally very sceptical > about the efficacy of proforma style letters to > relevant stakeholders. > They are often a-dime-a-dozen and from the > perspective of > management/politicians - written by people > with no familiarity with > the situation on the ground. Unfortunately the > saying that "all > politics is local" is even more pertinent in > the context of university > administrations. > > To put it simply, university administrators and > politicians are often > talking at cross-purposes to humanities > academics. The former is > concerned about tax dollars, fiscal > accountability, fiscal efficiency, > product sales (in this case - students enrolled > in classes) and > opportunities for return to scale. The former > is often not interested > in the long history of sanskrit, nor its > historical, religious, > linguistic and social importance to many people > across the > Asia-pacific region. > > This is perhaps because indologists often fail > to articulate in any > coherent way the MARKET-VALUE of sanskrit's > importance. On a micro > level, nor do indologists generally seem to be > good marketers of > sanskrit-learning to students. Nor are > important funding/relationship > ties often struck with local consulates, the > local ex-pat community, > local religious communities of differing > sectarian traditions. Until > this is done effectively, I fear that sanskrit > teaching will continue > to decline in the West. As a side note, it is > interesting to note the > relative health of sanskrit teaching in the > United States - perhaps > because US universities and departments are so > reliant on building > these important local relationships, private > endowments, heavily > marketing to students and making the "market" > case for sanskrit - > rather than simply reliant on an often fickle > budgetary allocation > from the State. > > To this end, it would be worth establishing how > much trade to India > and other asian countries to whom sanskrit > remains an important > historico-religious language is worth for each > particular European > nation. India is a growth economy and > opportunities for trade and > business partnerships will only improve over > time. Tying the teaching > of sanskrit in western universities into the > emerging Indian economy > is a very valuable exercise in attempting to > make a case for continued > funding. It is not too far a link to suggest > that understanding the > cultural and religious traditions of India > through her language (and > Sanskrit remains one of the official languages > of India) can ONLY help > to build important financial relationships. I > think that such a > preliminary market-based argument is a good > foundation to build a > coherent and persuasive argument for continued > funding. > > A more aggressive and enthusiastic embrace of > marketing methods to > entice students into taking up Sanskrit coupled > with a more modern and > accessible approach to teaching the language > will also help a great > deal towards making the case for sanskrit as a > viable course of study > for undergraduates. Sanskrit DOESN'T have to > necessitate poor levels > of enrolment. In previous years at my home > university in Australia, > enrolments in sanskrit outstripped those in > Latin, Greek and Hebrew > combined. The main reason was a really engaging > lecturer (I won't name > the person) who used to get out into the Indian > and Hindu community > and spruik sanskrit on campus, hand out flyers, > get up in front of > senior high school students and encourage > students to study sanskrit > and also address first year students in any > discipline and explain the > importance and excitement of learning sanskrit. > This is obviously an > extreme example of a highly dedicated > individual - but perhaps we are > heading into extreme times. > > In summary, I would really favour moving away > from the hackneyed and > often ineffective route of letter-writing to > senior University > bureaucrats in favour of: > > 1) More heavily and enthusiastically promoting > sanskrit to relevant groups, > 2) Forming financial and friendship bonds with > relevant local communities, > 3) Making the argument for sanskrit at a > university level (in > conjunction with local consuls, religious > groups etc) based on market > principles such as the growing financial > importance of India and the > centrality of sanskrit to her growing > mercantile population. > > Feel free to shout these ideas down. I just > thought a different > perspective might be useful here. > > Kind regards, > > Antonio Ferreira-Jardim > University of Queensland > > > On 1/4/07, Walter Slaje > wrote: > > > In my view, the distortive and illusory > claims made about the > > > presumed history of "Orientalism" in > general and Indology in particular are the > > > single most corruptive factor for the > reputation of these fields of learning. > > > > Bravo! > > > > WS > > > > -------------------------------- > > Prof Dr Walter Slaje > > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > > > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac > polliceor > > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum > et > > provecturum > > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam > captandam > > gloriam, > > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, > qua > > salus > > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris > MCMLXXXIII. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jan 4 14:24:14 2007 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 09:24:14 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079054.23782.8747338749032251329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I welcome the useful discussion initiated by Dominik. However, I cannot refrain from some comment and even some nindaa. It has been suggested: > >> I would really favour moving away from the hackneyed and > often ineffective route of letter-writing to senior University > bureaucrats << FYI : Letter writing (to the state minister in question) has * saved the both the Institutes at Bonn and Cologne in the early Nineties (the state of Northrhine-Westfalia, wanted to combine them). This before internet and email. * saved the Cologne institute just a few years ago. It has *not* worked for Muenster, and we learned about Bochum too late. (NB: all 4 universities are in the same rust belt state!). The same applies to Cambridge: we heard about it too late. To repeat myself, a clearing house and concerted action, e.g., by the Skt. Association, is required. HOWEVER: If I count correctly, out of the 18 participants in this conversation only 5 have actually taken action and written to the Berlin authorities. Looking at all the energy being spent here, why can't the other 13 colleagues spend 2 minutes and write 4-5 lines to : berlinindology at gmail.com (or if you prefer, ask me for pertinent email addresses of the various authorities involved, and then write to them individually). This stance is typical of many lists: talk, no action. I remind members of the meta-discussion about the CA schoolbook matter on the RISA (Religion in S. Asia) list: again talk, no action, and only when the initial damage had been done. (One RISA member even was well informed before this happened but intentionally did not take any action...) Of course, taking action brings about its own (personal) risks. NOT in the current Berlin case though. (Sure, all other points, such as local communities, local politics, modern languages, etc. granted.) Cheers, Michael > Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 direct line: 496 2990 < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Jan 4 08:34:56 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 09:34:56 +0100 Subject: Pancaratna of the MBh? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079022.23782.10732213328829708124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to add a few details to Dominik Wujastyk's earlier reply: The "five gems" collected in the Pancaratna are usually attributed to the Mahabharata, but only three of them are part of the constituted text of the BORI edition: Bhagavadgita (6.14-40), Bhismastavaraja (12.47), and Visnusahasranamastotra (13.135) The Anusmrti is handed down only in Southern mss. of the MBh (14, App. 17B), while the Gajendramoksana is hitherto undocumented in the entire MBh tradition, although the colophons of countless Pancaratna prints and mss. attribute it to the Santiparvan (MBh 12), sometimes to the "AAnu'saasanika" of the Santiparvan, possibly reflecting the state of affairs before these two split into separate parvans. Occasional accretions apart, the Pancaratna text of the Gajendramoksana episode is more or less identical with the version preserved in the Visnudharma (chap. 67 of my edition, vol. 2), whereas it has no textual parallels with the version of the Bhagavata-Purana. What is more, the Visnudharma has the Gajendramoksana episode side by side with the Anusmrti (chap. 68). [A parallel to the Visnudharma version of the Gajendramoksana is found in the Vamana-Purana (chap. 58 of the Kasiraj edition), the exact relation of which is too complex to unfold here.] For an electronic text of the Visnudharma see: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gret_utf.htm#Vdha As indicated, the Pancaratna is a collection of enourmous popularity, frequently used for recitation and available to this day in countless manuscripts and modern print version. The earliest reference to the collection as such (though without the name Pancaratna) seems to be in Vidyaakara Vaajapeyin's Nityaacaarapaddhati (pre-1500, according to Kane), where the recitation of "the five stotras" is mentioned in connection with the cleansing of the temple (pp. 492-495). Interestingly enough, Vidyaakara names the Visnudharma and the VamanaP as sources for the Gajendramoksana, and the Visnudharma alone for the Anusmrti. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Jan 4 09:42:00 2007 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 09:42:00 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution Message-ID: <161227079026.23782.18117918581150917226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In other words, ... but as a necessary > inhouse exercise, not only political aspects of > Indology's past are to be addressed, but also the > scholarly, scientific and comparative problematic > phenomena themselves, whether real or not, that > were once conveniently explained by convenient > myths -- myths which are still quite alive ... Jan, if you mean this serious, then I fail to understand why you are referring to the myths created by "Deep Orientalism" and by papers of others' along such lines as almost dogmatically true? In light of Gruenendahl's latest study on the subject, not much remains of the accusations put forward there. In fact, he debunks them as myths in a meticulously sober, scholarly manner. Before the issue is being carried on any further in the way it just seems to be getting started, I strongly recommend first to study Gruenendahl's arguments closely, and only then revert to this subject in the present Sanskrit context, or leave it. R. Gruenendahl, Von der Indologie zum Voelkermord. Die Kontinuitaetskonstrukte Sheldon Pollock's und seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisfuehrung. In: Jaina-ItihAsa-Ratna. Festschrift fuer Gustav Roth zum 80. Geburtstag. Hrsg. v. U. Huesken, P. Kieffer-Puelz und A. Peters. Marburg: Indica et Tibetica Verlag 2006: 209-236. Best, Walter ---------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From sb4 at SOAS.AC.UK Thu Jan 4 10:36:05 2007 From: sb4 at SOAS.AC.UK (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 10:36:05 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution Message-ID: <161227079033.23782.2284227659658912554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Slaje" > Before the issue is being carried on any further > in the way it just seems to be getting started, I > strongly recommend first to study Gruenendahl's > arguments closely, and only then revert to this > subject in the present Sanskrit context, or leave > it. > > R. Gruenendahl, Von der Indologie zum > Voelkermord. > Die Kontinuitaetskonstrukte Sheldon Pollock's und > seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisfuehrung. > In: Jaina-ItihAsa-Ratna. Festschrift fuer Gustav > Roth zum 80. Geburtstag. Hrsg. v. U. Huesken, P. > Kieffer-Puelz und A. Peters. Marburg: Indica et > Tibetica Verlag 2006: 209-236. Is there any hope of an English translation of this important article? I ask because in the UK education system these days (I cannot speak directly for the past, or for other places) it is generally only students whose primary and secondary education has taken place outside the UK who are able to read German with any facility. Indeed, although increasing numbers of students in UK universities in all disciplines do (for financial reasons) fall into this category, the fact that German is hardly taught in non-fee-paying schools in the UK -- or, indeed, to Sanskrit students in UK universities as a matter of course -- means that, if important Indological literature is to be produced in German and not translated, it is difficult to see how the UK could sensibly sustain a proper Indological tradition, will or no will. I make these points, I hasten to add, with nothing but the deepest respect for my colleagues overseas, and because Cambridge University is physically located in the UK. Simon Brodbeck SOAS, London From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Thu Jan 4 10:11:46 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 11:11:46 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20070103153534.AII46030@m4500-03.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227079028.23782.10510835802602902278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Whitney Cox wrote: > research. The complaints from administrative types that I > have most frequently encountered about the study (especially > the linguistic study) of premodern India are > two: low student enrollment beyond the most elementary level, > and the lack of high-profile, income-generating research > projects. This is at the core of the matter. In Oslo, and presumably elsewhere, subjects are funded according to enrollment and the production of "study points". It is also difficult to see how Sanskrit could generate income-generating research projects on a large scale. Nor is it ever likely that there will be a large number of Sanskrit students. This is simply because there are no jobs for them outside a university. If the authorities invented a position of "municipal Indologist" and required every municipality to have one, there would be lots of Sanskrit students. As it is, most students study Indology as a companion to some other line of study (again, Oslo experience). E.g. history of religion, Sanskrit's hottest customer in Oslo after comparative linguistics were abrogated. Thus, the study of Sanskrit must be justified through its intellectual merits. Sanskrit is a key to understanding not only India's past, but also its present. Any justification of Sanskrit directed at political authorities and university administrations must in my opinion emphasize this connection between India's ancient traditions and the political issues of today (e.g. Hindutva). I don't want to demonize anybody, I realize that university administrations must live with the directives they get from their governments. But it is clear to me that subjects with many students and relatively few teachers will try to "catch" positions occupied by scholars with few students - such as Sanskrit. This is normal Darwinism and not very shocking, but it is not a "good thing". Thus, it is a good idea to create position papers and other material that are available on the Indology site. We need clear presentations of what Indologists do, and what their contribution is to society. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Thu Jan 4 10:14:00 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 11:14:00 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <20070104083607.13875.qmail@web30109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079030.23782.17710491548668427612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben writes: In other words, as I see it, certain phenomena which have > been explained by racial theories before WWII are still > appearing as phenomena but the old racial ideas are cut off > because of their political undesirability leaving us with > unexplained phenomena still requiring either redefinition or > an explanation. Jan, could you please be more concrete and precise here? Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Thu Jan 4 10:35:55 2007 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 11:35:55 +0100 Subject: Pancaratna of the MBh? In-Reply-To: <459CCA40.11644.38900A@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079035.23782.3763092750634807321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Dominik Wujastyk and Reinhold Gr?nendahl for their kind replies, which have been forwarded to the original questioner. Martin Gansten From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Jan 4 11:38:00 2007 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 11:38:00 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <459CE93C.30831.B19B0A@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079039.23782.10892471588480772338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In my view, the distortive and illusory claims made about the > presumed history of "Orientalism" in general and Indology in particular are the > single most corruptive factor for the reputation of these fields of learning. Bravo! WS -------------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Jan 4 10:47:09 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 11:47:09 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <20070104083607.13875.qmail@web30109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079037.23782.11389402757441696665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 Jan 2007 at 0:36, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > ... we should also look courageously at the (more > distant and more recent) past, without trying to > escape or evade it in a cowardish and hypocrit > way. And, I may add, without reinventing the past according to our own preconceptions. Only a few years ago, Professor Houben advanced a similar argument when he claimed that "German indology" was in some way involved in "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". (for an online version of his paper see: http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn7/south/houben.html) However, at closer inspection, "the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the 'Zeitschrift der deutschen morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft'" he draws on in support say nothing of the kind, as I have tried to show in a recent paper. Of course, Professor Houben is free to ignore my paper, but should he consider taking up the issue in the present context, I should like to ask what kind of evidence he intends to produce this time. Two criteria would be very helpful: 1) that the evidence is concrete and verifiable by book, chapter and verse; 2) that it is relevant to the context. I have not read Jean Filliozat's article yet. From Professor Houben's quotes I gather that he saw "a gradual rise of racial theories" as a major factor in the history of Indology, but here, too, I cannot see that anything is said about the evidence he produces in support of this view. The same applies to Sheldon Pollock's "Deep Orientalism?...". I'm prepared to discuss any point in Pollock's paper Professor Houben or other members of this list may find intellectually convincing according to the above criteria, although I cannot see how this could possibly contribute to the declared intention of the present debate in any way. In my view, the distortive and illusory claims made about the presumed history of "Orientalism" in general and Indology in particular are the single most corruptive factor for the reputation of these fields of learning. And wasn't that what it was all about? Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Thu Jan 4 17:59:12 2007 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 12:59:12 -0500 Subject: Why Teach or Study Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227079059.23782.7320120475936910735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for cross posting I cannot believe, that I am writing this after all the discussion that has taken place on the net. I am neither a "Sanskritist" nor a "Linguist"? Just an cranky, old, art historian who has specialized in Buddhist Art for nearly 45 years. As "humanists" we study those essential activities that define our humanity. Regardless of whether it is our inborn nature to kill each other, make self-realizing and defining art, interact socially, or discuss human goals and ideals,, we are ever so slightly different than other members of the animal kingdom in many respects. Language has long facilitated speculation about human potential. Undoubtedly the rich Burials of the paleolithic era were brought about through the speculation about the nature of death and the potential of an after life. By the time recorded (regardless of whether it is written or remembered) language enters the world arena the entire panoply of religious and philosophical speculations are extant. Chinese, Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit carry within their gleaming traditions, the fundamental underlying ideas of humanity at the highest level. Speculation on what the human mass and what the individual human can and or should become are explicated by some of the most profound thinkers the world has ever known. Whether we speak of Confucius, Plato, or Shakyamuni we speak of persons who altered their world and changed the shape of humanity. Sanskrit, with its surviving thousands of texts contains a totality of positivity regarding the human condition and the potential of achievement in the human state of existence. One cannot be an "educated humanist" without a knowledge of one or more of these key languages. By that I do not mean fluency but an understanding of the content of the language's literature and to attain that, the would community needs the scholars of the language who must have the appropriate fluency to read and interpret the content into modern languages. No one questions the need for Chinese, Greek, or Latin in academia. What kind of preposterous Euro-American centrism suggests that the Sanskritic base of knowledge is not worth knowing? I truly shudder at the parochialism of such a view. The South Asian Indic community is undergoing a vast diaspora at this very moment. When I first moved to Columbus Ohio to join the university faculty there was virtually no Indic community present. Today the Indic community number approximately 5000 and is rapidly growing! The same is true around the world. What a slap in the face of our neighbors and colleagues! Knowing the traditions of our collective "fathers" demands that we study the philosophical and religious speculations of our ancestors so that we can understand their hopes and aspirations for humanity itself. Indeed that historical consciousness and collective awareness of the human past is one of the defining features of being human. And, for a fifth of the world's population, Sanskrit is fundamental to that understanding. If plato is required reading , then Nagarjuna should be also! John John C. Huntington, Professor (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) Department of the History of Art The Ohio State University Columbus, OH, U.S.A. From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Jan 4 13:59:14 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 14:59:14 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <408671.62074.qm@web30112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079051.23782.9934262316415338344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So now it's Professor Houben's > article of Beyond Orientalism (ed. by K. Preisendanz and E. Franco, > Amsterdam 1997): Orientalism, its critique, and beyond." > IIAS-Newsletter, no. 15 p. 16. International Institute for Asian Studies, 1998. However, this says nothing about his current position on the claims cited in my earlier message. Are they unceremoniously dropped, or does he stick to them courageously (I think that was the word), in spite of the objections I raised? Has he taken notice of my point, and - are these claims open for debate? "Making the argument for Sanskrit" is not entirely unrelated to the style of discussion on this list, I think. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM Thu Jan 4 12:53:51 2007 From: antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 07 22:53:51 +1000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <1H2Qv5-1z36sy0@fwd33.sul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227079049.23782.12807808038946002835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, As interesting as a discussion about orientalism in the context of the history of western research on sanskrit may be - it would appear to me to be very tangential to the real issue at hand which is precisely how to make an effective argument for the retention of sanskrit teaching. For many Indologists, the language and practice of politics and economics does not come easily. However, I truly believe that in order to preserve (and hopefully even grow) the teaching of sanskrit at universities around the world, Indologists need to embrace modern fiscal arguments based on Markets and Marketing. Having worked in both a University bureaucratic environment and in a major political party environment, from my own experience I am personally very sceptical about the efficacy of proforma style letters to relevant stakeholders. They are often a-dime-a-dozen and from the perspective of management/politicians - written by people with no familiarity with the situation on the ground. Unfortunately the saying that "all politics is local" is even more pertinent in the context of university administrations. To put it simply, university administrators and politicians are often talking at cross-purposes to humanities academics. The former is concerned about tax dollars, fiscal accountability, fiscal efficiency, product sales (in this case - students enrolled in classes) and opportunities for return to scale. The former is often not interested in the long history of sanskrit, nor its historical, religious, linguistic and social importance to many people across the Asia-pacific region. This is perhaps because indologists often fail to articulate in any coherent way the MARKET-VALUE of sanskrit's importance. On a micro level, nor do indologists generally seem to be good marketers of sanskrit-learning to students. Nor are important funding/relationship ties often struck with local consulates, the local ex-pat community, local religious communities of differing sectarian traditions. Until this is done effectively, I fear that sanskrit teaching will continue to decline in the West. As a side note, it is interesting to note the relative health of sanskrit teaching in the United States - perhaps because US universities and departments are so reliant on building these important local relationships, private endowments, heavily marketing to students and making the "market" case for sanskrit - rather than simply reliant on an often fickle budgetary allocation from the State. To this end, it would be worth establishing how much trade to India and other asian countries to whom sanskrit remains an important historico-religious language is worth for each particular European nation. India is a growth economy and opportunities for trade and business partnerships will only improve over time. Tying the teaching of sanskrit in western universities into the emerging Indian economy is a very valuable exercise in attempting to make a case for continued funding. It is not too far a link to suggest that understanding the cultural and religious traditions of India through her language (and Sanskrit remains one of the official languages of India) can ONLY help to build important financial relationships. I think that such a preliminary market-based argument is a good foundation to build a coherent and persuasive argument for continued funding. A more aggressive and enthusiastic embrace of marketing methods to entice students into taking up Sanskrit coupled with a more modern and accessible approach to teaching the language will also help a great deal towards making the case for sanskrit as a viable course of study for undergraduates. Sanskrit DOESN'T have to necessitate poor levels of enrolment. In previous years at my home university in Australia, enrolments in sanskrit outstripped those in Latin, Greek and Hebrew combined. The main reason was a really engaging lecturer (I won't name the person) who used to get out into the Indian and Hindu community and spruik sanskrit on campus, hand out flyers, get up in front of senior high school students and encourage students to study sanskrit and also address first year students in any discipline and explain the importance and excitement of learning sanskrit. This is obviously an extreme example of a highly dedicated individual - but perhaps we are heading into extreme times. In summary, I would really favour moving away from the hackneyed and often ineffective route of letter-writing to senior University bureaucrats in favour of: 1) More heavily and enthusiastically promoting sanskrit to relevant groups, 2) Forming financial and friendship bonds with relevant local communities, 3) Making the argument for sanskrit at a university level (in conjunction with local consuls, religious groups etc) based on market principles such as the growing financial importance of India and the centrality of sanskrit to her growing mercantile population. Feel free to shout these ideas down. I just thought a different perspective might be useful here. Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim University of Queensland On 1/4/07, Walter Slaje wrote: > > In my view, the distortive and illusory claims made about the > > presumed history of "Orientalism" in general and Indology in particular are the > > single most corruptive factor for the reputation of these fields of learning. > > Bravo! > > WS > > -------------------------------- > Prof Dr Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et > provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam > gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua > salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. > From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 08:48:41 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 00:48:41 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <459E15EC.16478.329C7B@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079067.23782.5036463744968297640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good morning, Reinhold, See my previous comments on that memorable meeting in Leipzig, and why I referred to the mentioned issues of ZDMG ... My position is clear to those who take the time to read my previous mails on Making the Argument for Sanskrit. I have no further comments to add at this moment, and still a lot of homework to do among which, yes, also writing to the Berlin authorities -- rest assured, in my letters to them I will not refer to the sensitive period in German-European-International indology. Cheers, JH --- gruenendahl wrote: > On 4 Jan 2007 at 6:40, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > > > In view of the turn the discussion of the > > explosively sensitive topic of the history of > > Indology is taking it is probably indeed > better > > to face this problem in a trans-national > context > > and keep it for a separate thread (and a > section > > in the planned Indology FAQ). > > > I fully agree with Professor Houben's > proposition to decouple the two issues. It > will > be remembered, I hope, that it was not my idea > to insinuate a connection between > them. > > Then why not start the separate thread now? > > Before the discussion (if any) turns to more > complex issues, I should like to assess the > current state > of affairs by asking a few simple questions: > > Does Professor Houben or any other member of > this list maintain any of the following > positions > (all quoted from his paper: > http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn7/south/houben.html): > > 1) That there was a "positive relations which > some indologists at least maintained with the > German government > and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan > race' before and during the period of the > Second World War period", > and if so, where do these relations surface in > indological writings of that period? > > 2) that "selected articles and notices of the > volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of > the Zeitschrift [der] Deutsche[n] > Morgenl?ndische[n] Gesellschaft" would yield > any evidence > in support of position #1, and if so, which; > > 3) that "S. Pollock's provocative "Deep > Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond > the Raj" > (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The > Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, 1993)", > make > "essential reading for a well-informed > discussion" in so far as [my addition:] it > contains an intellectually > sound argument in support of his claims or > position #1, and if so, which. > > Please correct me if I should have > misinterpreted Professor Houben's positions in > any way. > By settling these simple questions in his > favour, I think, Professor Houben could rally > more support for > his case than by any other means. > > As indicated, two criteria would be very > helpful: 1) that the evidence is concrete and > verifiable by book, > chapter and verse; 2) that it is relevant to > the context. > > > > > As for the prospected FAQ section, a section > for FRF (frequently repeated fabrications) may > also > be a good idea. > > > Greetings > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > > ******************************************************************** > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und > Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische > Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 Goettingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 > gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic > Texts in Indian Languages > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 11:19:49 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 03:19:49 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <459E22D9.25929.651A72@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079073.23782.875577836080567019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reinhold, As for the proposed discussion, since you are preparing a BOOK on this topic I propose you FINISH THAT FIRST and I will write a review of it. Anyway, before or after my coming travels I don't expect to have anything to add to what I have stated and published in the mentioned articles (but apparently you are not interested in reading those articles because you are too much attached to your own construct of my position on the basis of a brief citation from my conference report). Moreover, most list-members may not yet have read your article on Indology and genocide, so I wonder whether a list-discussion will be very useful now. In the mean time I will try to get hold of the thesis which was recently reported to have been defended in Aix-Marseille with the title "L'extension anthropologique de la philologie : histoire des ?tudes sanscrites en Allemagne (1808-1914) by Pascale Rabault-Feuerhahn." As for your request for my comments, in order not to burden the list with a repetition, the mail I sent yesterday to the list starts "With "few years ago" you are really referring to my report of the DMG meeting in 1995, more than TEN years ago? It follows below. ... " If it did not reach you, it is available in the archive. Best, JH --- gruenendahl wrote: > On 5 Jan 2007 at 0:48, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > > > Good morning, Reinhold, > > See my previous comments on that memorable > > meeting in Leipzig, and why I referred to the > > mentioned issues of ZDMG ... My position is > clear > > to those who take the time to read my > previous > > mails on Making the Argument for Sanskrit. I > have > > no further comments to add at this moment, > and > > still a lot of homework to do among which, > yes, > > also writing to the Berlin authorities -- > rest > > assured, in my letters to them I will not > refer > > to the sensitive period in > > German-European-International indology. > > Cheers, > > JH > > Good morning, Jan, > please bear with my ignorance, but which > "previous comment" did you have in > mind? > > Regards > Reinhold > > > ******************************************************************** > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und > Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische > Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 G?ttingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 > gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic > Texts in Indian Languages > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 5 08:10:04 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 09:10:04 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <183242.55129.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079064.23782.17462953464557129790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 Jan 2007 at 6:40, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > In view of the turn the discussion of the > explosively sensitive topic of the history of > Indology is taking it is probably indeed better > to face this problem in a trans-national context > and keep it for a separate thread (and a section > in the planned Indology FAQ). I fully agree with Professor Houben's proposition to decouple the two issues. It will be remembered, I hope, that it was not my idea to insinuate a connection between them. Then why not start the separate thread now? Before the discussion (if any) turns to more complex issues, I should like to assess the current state of affairs by asking a few simple questions: Does Professor Houben or any other member of this list maintain any of the following positions (all quoted from his paper: http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn7/south/houben.html): 1) That there was a "positive relations which some indologists at least maintained with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' before and during the period of the Second World War period", and if so, where do these relations surface in indological writings of that period? 2) that "selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift [der] Deutsche[n] Morgenl?ndische[n] Gesellschaft" would yield any evidence in support of position #1, and if so, which; 3) that "S. Pollock's provocative "Deep Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj" (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, 1993)", make "essential reading for a well-informed discussion" in so far as [my addition:] it contains an intellectually sound argument in support of his claims or position #1, and if so, which. Please correct me if I should have misinterpreted Professor Houben's positions in any way. By settling these simple questions in his favour, I think, Professor Houben could rally more support for his case than by any other means. As indicated, two criteria would be very helpful: 1) that the evidence is concrete and verifiable by book, chapter and verse; 2) that it is relevant to the context. As for the prospected FAQ section, a section for FRF (frequently repeated fabrications) may also be a good idea. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK Fri Jan 5 09:33:43 2007 From: elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 09:33:43 +0000 Subject: Flood's _Tantric Body_ Message-ID: <161227079071.23782.9002669446773006433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed colleagues, if any of the Sanskritists amongst you read Gavin Flood's _Tantric Body_ could they please get in touch with me at my personal address. Thanks in advance. Happy New Year to all! Elizabeth De Michelis Dr Elizabeth De Michelis Oriel College, Oriel Square, Oxford, UK OX1 4EW Tel: 01865-276550 email: elizabeth.demichelis at oriel.ox.ac.uk http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/modernyoga/ From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 5 09:05:14 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 10:05:14 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <848450.21826.qm@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079069.23782.8945397461221281055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 5 Jan 2007 at 0:48, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Good morning, Reinhold, > See my previous comments on that memorable > meeting in Leipzig, and why I referred to the > mentioned issues of ZDMG ... My position is clear > to those who take the time to read my previous > mails on Making the Argument for Sanskrit. I have > no further comments to add at this moment, and > still a lot of homework to do among which, yes, > also writing to the Berlin authorities -- rest > assured, in my letters to them I will not refer > to the sensitive period in > German-European-International indology. > Cheers, > JH Good morning, Jan, please bear with my ignorance, but which "previous comment" did you have in mind? Regards Reinhold ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 18:13:01 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 10:13:01 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <459E80A3.6461.AA799@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079092.23782.3269448241294578656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reinhold, I still insist you first have a look at the articles, to which I drew your kind attention not only yesterday but also in our extended email exchange more than two years ago. I am very happy with my 1995 conference report -- that is why I pasted it again in a previous message -- but it is a conference report and not a research paper. By the way, did you notice that it has become quite silent on the list since you tried to open the discussion on the "Indology and the disastrous ideology of pure Aryan race" topic (on which see also Halbfass 1988: 139-140)? Let others read your well-documented and cleverly argued article liberating each and every German indologist of the 1900-1945 period from any possible association with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the pure Aryan race, not only the heroic Heinrich L?ders but also W?st, Schubring, Sieg, Frauwallner (but he was Austrian? but didn't he study and publish in Germany?); I for my part I am now more and more looking forward to seeing the announced book. Cheers, Jan --- gruenendahl wrote: > Dear Jan, > I have no idea which fate had a hand in this > failed delivery, but anyway, I've > been able to open your mail dated Thu, 4 Jan > 2007 04:31:24 - > 0800 from home, and I came back to send you at > least these comments: > > > In whatever mind I read your report before, and > I have read it quite a few > times, I assure you, I now learn that it cannot > have been a "detached > scholarly" one. If this remark is already part > of your argument, I really don't > know what to reply. > > Now, a "detached scholarly mind" (like yours, I > suppose) would have seen > that you > "refer to 'selected articles and notices of the > volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and > 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die > Deutsche Morgenl?ndische > Gesellschaft' NOT to support the claims made in > any article (...), but to > illustrate the promising continuity with a > discontinuous past which was one > of the topics of that memorable meeting in > Leipzig". > > This almost sounds as if you referred to the > ZDMG for no particular purpose > at all. Now, the paragraph from which you take > this quote is headed > "Vergangenheit Bewaltigung" and deals > specifically and exclusively with > "some of the more problematic aspects of the > history" of "German > indology", not with general aspects of > continuity and discontinuity, as you > now try to assert. And it is in this context, > particularly with regard to "the > disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" > that you refer to Pollock and > "selected articles and notices" of the ZDMG. > Doesn't it come as a natural > conclusion to the reader that those ominous > articles of the ZDMG (of > course, you don't name one) support that > ideology in one way or another? > But let's say you didn't refer to these > articles as evidence for "positive > relations which some indologists at least > maintained with the German > government and its disastrous ideology of the > 'pure Aryan race'", what other > evidence can you name in support of these > "positive relations", if not the > ZDMG - which say nothing of the kind, I may > remind you with reference to > my article? > > I have no intention to discuss any particulars > of Pollock's article before we > are through with your report, but the stance > that it has "proven its healthy > provocative character ever since" is just the > all-purpose post-orientalist > 'argument' along the lines of "Said's > 'Orientalism' (or you name it ...) may be > bogus, but it did so much good just the same!" > I beg to differ on that! > > As for the various writings you adduce post > festum, is this to be taken as an > indication that your report cannot stand on its > own feet in this regard? And > now you want to see my book first, and a thesis > from Aix-Marseille ... > anything else I can help out with, perhaps? I > feel like I'm taken on a Cook's > tour, if you don't mind me saying this. > > One last thing I have time for today: I didn't > know that your publications > have a kind of sell-by date attached to them. > So please enlighten my: is > your 1995 report now obsolete, although it is > still riding the waves on the > web, or has it become some kind of classic that > is beyond the nit-picking of > ordinary mortals? > > > > In view of the evidence so far (your articles > haven't arive yet)I should like to > reassert my questions: > > Does Professor Houben or any other member of > this list maintain any of the > following positions > (all quoted from his paper: > http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn7/south/houben.html): > > 1) That there was a "positive relations which > some indologists at least maintained > with the German government > and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan > race' before and during the period of > the Second World War period", > and if so, where do these relations surface in > indological writings of that period? > > 2) that "selected articles and notices of the > volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945- > 49) of > the Zeitschrift [der] Deutsche[n] > Morgenl?ndische[n] Gesellschaft" would yield > any > evidence > in support of position #1, and if so, which; > > 3) that "S. Pollock's provocative "Deep > Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power > Beyond the Raj" > (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The > Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, > 1993)", make > "essential reading for a well-informed > discussion" in so far as [my addition:] it > contains an intellectually > sound argument in support of his claims or > position #1, and if so, which. > > > That's all I have time for due to reduced > opening hours. > > Greetings > Reinhold > > > ******************************************************************** > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und > Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische > Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 Goettingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 > gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic > Texts in Indian Languages > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 20:31:27 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 12:31:27 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <48035.31534.qm@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079095.23782.16143336271857766942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Reinhold, Since you have by now two times "asserted" (sic) your questions to the list and since no reaction came so far, since moreover my own position is sufficiently clearly stated and accessible(although you do have to take the effort to search and read the articles published in well-known places, but for anyone close to a library a period of two years should suffice), I think it is appropriate to stop the discussion on this list in the present form in order not to bore to death our fellow indology lovers. They should at least remain sufficiently inspired to write letters to the Berlin authorities. I wait for your book and write the review. Promise. Good night. Jan --- "Jan E.M. Houben" wrote: > Dear Reinhold, > I still insist you first have a look at the > articles, to which I drew your kind attention > not > only yesterday but also in our extended email > exchange more than two years ago. I am very > happy > with my 1995 conference report -- that is why I > pasted it again in a previous message -- but it > is a conference report and not a research > paper. > By the way, did you notice that it has become > quite silent on the list since you tried to > open > the discussion on the "Indology and the > disastrous ideology of pure Aryan race" topic > (on > which see also Halbfass 1988: 139-140)? Let > others read your well-documented and cleverly > argued article liberating each and every German > indologist of the 1900-1945 period from any > possible association with the German government > and its disastrous ideology of the pure Aryan > race, not only the heroic Heinrich L?ders but > also W?st, Schubring, Sieg, Frauwallner (but he > was Austrian? but didn't he study and publish > in > Germany?); I for my part I am now more and > more > looking forward to seeing the announced book. > Cheers, > Jan > > > > > --- gruenendahl > wrote: > > > Dear Jan, > > I have no idea which fate had a hand in this > > failed delivery, but anyway, I've > > been able to open your mail dated Thu, 4 Jan > > 2007 04:31:24 - > > 0800 from home, and I came back to send you > at > > least these comments: > > > > > > In whatever mind I read your report before, > and > > I have read it quite a few > > times, I assure you, I now learn that it > cannot > > have been a "detached > > scholarly" one. If this remark is already > part > > of your argument, I really don't > > know what to reply. > > > > Now, a "detached scholarly mind" (like yours, > I > > suppose) would have seen > > that you > > "refer to 'selected articles and notices of > the > > volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and > > 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die > > Deutsche Morgenl?ndische > > Gesellschaft' NOT to support the claims made > in > > any article (...), but to > > illustrate the promising continuity with a > > discontinuous past which was one > > of the topics of that memorable meeting in > > Leipzig". > > > > This almost sounds as if you referred to the > > ZDMG for no particular purpose > > at all. Now, the paragraph from which you > take > > this quote is headed > > "Vergangenheit Bewaltigung" and deals > > specifically and exclusively with > > "some of the more problematic aspects of the > > history" of "German > > indology", not with general aspects of > > continuity and discontinuity, as you > > now try to assert. And it is in this context, > > particularly with regard to "the > > disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" > > that you refer to Pollock and > > "selected articles and notices" of the ZDMG. > > Doesn't it come as a natural > > conclusion to the reader that those ominous > > articles of the ZDMG (of > > course, you don't name one) support that > > ideology in one way or another? > > But let's say you didn't refer to these > > articles as evidence for "positive > > relations which some indologists at least > > maintained with the German > > government and its disastrous ideology of the > > 'pure Aryan race'", what other > > evidence can you name in support of these > > "positive relations", if not the > > ZDMG - which say nothing of the kind, I may > > remind you with reference to > > my article? > > > > I have no intention to discuss any > particulars > > of Pollock's article before we > > are through with your report, but the stance > > that it has "proven its healthy > > provocative character ever since" is just the > > all-purpose post-orientalist > > 'argument' along the lines of "Said's > > 'Orientalism' (or you name it ...) may be > > bogus, but it did so much good just the > same!" > > I beg to differ on that! > > > > As for the various writings you adduce post > > festum, is this to be taken as an > > indication that your report cannot stand on > its > > own feet in this regard? And > > now you want to see my book first, and a > thesis > > from Aix-Marseille ... > > anything else I can help out with, perhaps? I > > feel like I'm taken on a Cook's > > tour, if you don't mind me saying this. > > > > One last thing I have time for today: I > didn't > > know that your publications > > have a kind of sell-by date attached to them. > > So please enlighten my: is > > your 1995 report now obsolete, although it is > > still riding the waves on the > > web, or has it become some kind of classic > that > > is beyond the nit-picking of > > ordinary mortals? > > > > > > > > In view of the evidence so far (your articles > > haven't arive yet)I should like to > > reassert my questions: > > > > Does Professor Houben or any other member of > > this list maintain any of the > > following positions > > (all quoted from his paper: > > > http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn7/south/houben.html): > > > > 1) That there was a "positive relations which > > some indologists at least maintained > > with the German government > > and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure > Aryan > > race' before and during the period of > > the Second World War period", > > and if so, where do these relations surface > in > > indological writings of that period? > > > > 2) that "selected articles and notices of the > > volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945- > > 49) of > > the Zeitschrift [der] Deutsche[n] > > Morgenl?ndische[n] Gesellschaft" would yield > > any > > evidence > > in support of position #1, and if so, which; > > > > 3) that "S. Pollock's provocative "Deep > > Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power > > Beyond the Raj" > > (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The > > Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, > > 1993)", make > > "essential reading for a well-informed > > discussion" in so far as [my addition:] it > > contains an intellectually > > sound argument in support of his claims or > > position #1, and if so, which. > > > > > > That's all I have time for due to reduced > > opening hours. > > > > Greetings > > Reinhold > > > > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM Fri Jan 5 02:46:14 2007 From: antonio.jardim at GMAIL.COM (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 12:46:14 +1000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: <12469eafe3088e7d852c330ad96b4298@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227079061.23782.9685300538032706833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With regard to some comments, Perhaps Professor Witzel and I disagree about the effectiveness of letter-writing campaigns by academics generally. That said, I have personally written a short note myself in solidarity to the relevant State and Federal Education Ministers as well as the German equivalent of the Berlin University Vice-Chancellor. Others should do so as well. My essential point however remains. We should perhaps begin to frame our arguments in different ways and not rely on letters from international scholars to persuade the bean-counters in various University administrations. Without a realisation of the growing commercialisation of Higher Education around the world, Indologists risk being swept away in its wake. Professor Witzel does raise an excellent point about the international sanskrit association however. Surely it is within the aims and objectives of this association to take an activist role in challenges such as this? Would it be appropriate for someone to update this list on the Association's response to the Berlin situation? Professor Kirk I am very aware of the ongoing battle in the US with the forces of Hindutva revisionism. It goes without saying that academic researchers should never accept funding by those who wish to tie funding to ideological and revisionist outcomes. At this stage though, as far as I am aware, the US situation seems to be relatively contained therein. In Australia and the rest of Europe (to my knowledge) we don't have elected school boards or an elected judiciary so there is far less scope for the kind of tactics that the saffron forces have used in the US. In a peculiar way though, perhaps the California case will inspire more people to learn sanskrit as its ongoing relevance in even modern political debate becomes more obvious! Kind regards, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim UQ Australia On 1/5/07, Michael Witzel wrote: > I welcome the useful discussion initiated by Dominik. However, I cannot > refrain from some comment and even some nindaa. It has been suggested: > > > >> I would really favour moving away from the hackneyed and > > often ineffective route of letter-writing to senior University > > bureaucrats << > > FYI : Letter writing (to the state minister in question) has > * saved the both the Institutes at Bonn and Cologne in the early > Nineties (the state of Northrhine-Westfalia, wanted to combine them). > This before internet and email. > * saved the Cologne institute just a few years ago. > > It has *not* worked for Muenster, and we learned about Bochum too late. > (NB: all 4 universities are in the same rust belt state!). > > The same applies to Cambridge: we heard about it too late. > > To repeat myself, a clearing house and concerted action, e.g., by the > Skt. Association, is required. > > > HOWEVER: > > If I count correctly, out of the 18 participants in this conversation > only 5 have actually taken action and written to the Berlin authorities. > > Looking at all the energy being spent here, why can't the other 13 > colleagues spend 2 minutes and write 4-5 lines to : > berlinindology at gmail.com > (or if you prefer, ask me for pertinent email addresses of the various > authorities involved, and then write to them individually). > > This stance is typical of many lists: talk, no action. > > I remind members of the meta-discussion about the CA schoolbook matter > on the RISA (Religion in S. Asia) list: again talk, no action, and only > when the initial damage had been done. (One RISA member even was well > informed before this happened but intentionally did not take any > action...) Of course, taking action brings about its own (personal) > risks. NOT in the current Berlin case though. > > (Sure, all other points, such as local communities, local politics, > modern languages, etc. granted.) > > Cheers, > Michael > > > Michael Witzel > Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 > 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 > direct line: 496 2990 > > > > < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> > From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 5 12:28:36 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 13:28:36 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <20070105111949.68960.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079075.23782.10514403953559378810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, Jan, I cannot reply in full before Monday! As for the article you introduced in addition to support your point, I simply couldn't find the copy (if I made one) and therefore had to order the book - so please don't rush to conclusions. Thanks for pointing out yesterday's e-mail. Indeed, I didn't get it, and when I tried to open it now, my mail program blocked! None the less, I'd be interested to continue the discussion! Greetings Reinhold ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 5 21:06:59 2007 From: amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Andrea Marion Pinkney) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 16:06:59 -0500 Subject: South Asia Times Font ? Message-ID: <161227079097.23782.15856666872254717173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I am trying to update some old documents that I created using the (non-unicode) font "South Asia Times". I didn't put the old font on my new computer, and now I'm not finding a link online to download it again. Would anyone have a copy of this font they could mail to me off-list -- or perhaps a better Internet sleuth than me could direct me to a link to download it? With many thanks, Andrea Andrea Pinkney Ph.D. Candidate Columbia University Department of Religion From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 5 15:45:23 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 16:45:23 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" Message-ID: <161227079078.23782.538707628642788039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jan, I have no idea which fate had a hand in this failed delivery, but anyway, I've been able to open your mail dated Thu, 4 Jan 2007 04:31:24 - 0800 from home, and I came back to send you at least these comments: In whatever mind I read your report before, and I have read it quite a few times, I assure you, I now learn that it cannot have been a "detached scholarly" one. If this remark is already part of your argument, I really don't know what to reply. Now, a "detached scholarly mind" (like yours, I suppose) would have seen that you "refer to 'selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft' NOT to support the claims made in any article (...), but to illustrate the promising continuity with a discontinuous past which was one of the topics of that memorable meeting in Leipzig". This almost sounds as if you referred to the ZDMG for no particular purpose at all. Now, the paragraph from which you take this quote is headed "Vergangenheit Bewaltigung" and deals specifically and exclusively with "some of the more problematic aspects of the history" of "German indology", not with general aspects of continuity and discontinuity, as you now try to assert. And it is in this context, particularly with regard to "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" that you refer to Pollock and "selected articles and notices" of the ZDMG. Doesn't it come as a natural conclusion to the reader that those ominous articles of the ZDMG (of course, you don't name one) support that ideology in one way or another? But let's say you didn't refer to these articles as evidence for "positive relations which some indologists at least maintained with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", what other evidence can you name in support of these "positive relations", if not the ZDMG - which say nothing of the kind, I may remind you with reference to my article? I have no intention to discuss any particulars of Pollock's article before we are through with your report, but the stance that it has "proven its healthy provocative character ever since" is just the all-purpose post-orientalist 'argument' along the lines of "Said's 'Orientalism' (or you name it ...) may be bogus, but it did so much good just the same!" I beg to differ on that! As for the various writings you adduce post festum, is this to be taken as an indication that your report cannot stand on its own feet in this regard? And now you want to see my book first, and a thesis from Aix-Marseille ... anything else I can help out with, perhaps? I feel like I'm taken on a Cook's tour, if you don't mind me saying this. One last thing I have time for today: I didn't know that your publications have a kind of sell-by date attached to them. So please enlighten my: is your 1995 report now obsolete, although it is still riding the waves on the web, or has it become some kind of classic that is beyond the nit-picking of ordinary mortals? In view of the evidence so far (your articles haven't arive yet)I should like to reassert my questions: Does Professor Houben or any other member of this list maintain any of the following positions (all quoted from his paper: http://www.iias.nl/iiasn/iiasn7/south/houben.html): 1) That there was a "positive relations which some indologists at least maintained with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' before and during the period of the Second World War period", and if so, where do these relations surface in indological writings of that period? 2) that "selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945- 49) of the Zeitschrift [der] Deutsche[n] Morgenl?ndische[n] Gesellschaft" would yield any evidence in support of position #1, and if so, which; 3) that "S. Pollock's provocative "Deep Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj" (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, 1993)", make "essential reading for a well-informed discussion" in so far as [my addition:] it contains an intellectually sound argument in support of his claims or position #1, and if so, which. That's all I have time for due to reduced opening hours. Greetings Reinhold ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Jan 5 15:52:53 2007 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 16:52:53 +0100 Subject: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) In-Reply-To: <891c3d0ef6ab77d0225615ae6e8d67fb@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227079080.23782.2817705072362254118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, since it is my post which is planned to be sacked when I leave office in 2012 I would like to thank Michael for his enduring efforts, which outshine everything that has been done in this respect anywhere in Germany. May I recall the basic fact: it was planned that the dept. of Indian Philology moved to the Humboldt-University in town. This was not a bad idea, given the depts. of Indian history already there. The shift over there was planned to be accompanied by a shift of the Egyptian Archaeology from there to us, the Free University. This way no university would have been forced to augment its staff, just a swapping of depts. with no financial burden involved would take place. Unfortunately, the Egyptian Archaeology refused to move and the president of the Humboldt universtiy missed the occasion to kick them over par ordre du moufti. Our president had firmly planned for a future without Indian Philology. Now that I cannot go - because the Egyptian Archaeologists don't come - he still sticks to this plan. What is worse: he refuses to talk about our field with me or anyone else who could make him change his mind. He and his colleague at the Humboldt-University should be reminded that no higher authority, like the senator for education and sciences in town or the Wissenschaftsrat, has ever pleaded for a closure of Indian Philology, and that even with the missed swapping no additional personal is to be paid anywhere. All arguments regarding the importance of the field, its long history in town, Sanskrit, Indian history etc. will be accepted as important, but they will not be taken into account. At least at present. No one should expect an instant result; however, as long as complaints from all over the world keep pouring in these two presidents will be reminded of something they have to deal with. Just say that - there never was a plan to erase Indian philology - no additional money is needed since the swapping would not have changed the number of staff - Michael Witzel schrieb: > Dear List members, > > Before Christmas, I have written to you about the planned closure of > the Berlin Indology department. > > Many of you have already written to the Berlin authorities then. > > However, a second push may not hurt, as the case is by *no means* > closed yet. > > So, please, those of you who have not yet written, do so now during the > New Year break! > > As you know, we have set up an email address to which you can send your > letters: > > berlinindology at gmail.com > > > If you want to write *directly* to the various authorities concerned, > please let me know, and I will then send you the proper addresses. > > > [[ By the way, someone (the World Sanskrit Association?) should > organize such efforts worldwide, as cutbacks in all classical fields, > from Latin and Greek to Chinese, are and will be with us for a while. > Eventually, even administrators and politicians will recognize that > you have to know a bit more about the world's civilizations than just > current elections and economics... ]] > > With many thanks > and best wishes for 2007, > Michael Witzel > > ----------------------- > > Please select from the following or compose a letter yourself. > > Just a few lines will do! > > ================================================= > > To whom it may concern: > > A few days weeks we have learned, worldwide, that Indian Studies in > Berlin are to be abolished. I therefore write to you to request to > preserve the world famous Institute of Indology. > > This does not only concern modern South Asian Studies, that still are > well represented, but also ?Classical Indology? or ?Indian Philology?. > > Classical Indian Philology has existed at Berlin since 1821, and the > discipline has been continued at Humboldt University even after 1945 by > Professors Ruben and Morgenroth, as well as at the new institute of the > Freie Universitaet (Prof.s Bruhn and Falk). Indology prominently deals > with the indigenous weltanschauung, religion and history of thought, as > they are represented in Sanskrit and other texts. Without this kind of > background modern India cannot be understood. > > The study of the Sanskrit language, that was one of the official > languages in India until 1835, is essential for any understanding of > the immense number of Indian texts, from c. 1500 BCE until today, for > example in fields such as traditional Indian medicine (Ayurveda) or > indigenous Indian linguistics (Panini), a field that has supplied > important stimuli to western linguistics. > > As is obvious even from this minimal discussion, modern India can only > be understood -- just as any other important civilization ? if one > studies its foundational texts and their impact during the medieval and > modern periods. (I have constantly experienced that myself during my > five years stay in South Asia.) Indian history, spanning some 5000 > years, is becoming ever more important even in the political arena, for > example during the past elections of 2004, which had the effect that > even classical philologists were drawn into the fray, whether they > wanted or not. > > Consequently, both modern as well a classical Indology are essential. > We appeal to you to continue both branches of our discipline. > > Berlin Indology can look back, as mentioned, to a tradition spanning > some 200 years. Many internationally famous scholars have emerged from > Berlin. In the early 19th century, the study of India belonged to one > of the major points of Humboldt?s reform of the German Universities. > This should not be forgotten now that India receives great attention > worldwide, as it grows economically and politically. > > Finally, it may be added that German Indology has a very good name in > India, as Indologists have seriously endeavored to study Indian culture > without prejudice. This long-standing and continuing attitude of German > intellectuals towards Indian civilization has made Indology the best > ambassador in India. It will be met with disbelief both in India and > worldwide if the German capital will have to do without an Indian > Institute. > > The preservation of the internationally highly regarded Indology of > Berlin therefore is important also for the reputation of Berlin as a > place of research. The demolition of Indology would also be > unreasonable in view of the large collections of manuscripts of the > Prussian State Library and the Academy, as well as the rich holdings of > the Museum of Indian Art. It would bring 200 years of a great tradition > to an end. > > We therefore sincerely appeal to you to preserve the discipline and its > BA., M.A., and PhD. courses. Anything but this would be a disaster, a > waste of material and human capital. > > > Yours faithfully, > > X.Y. > > (official position) > (address) > (email) > ================================== > Michael Witzel > Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University > 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 > 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 > direct line: 496 2990 > > > > < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/ > > <*> Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > > <*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/join > (Yahoo! ID required) > > <*> To change settings via email: > mailto:INDOLOGY-digest at yahoogroups.com > mailto:INDOLOGY-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > INDOLOGY-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Jan 5 17:13:29 2007 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 18:13:29 +0100 Subject: Berlin Indology-full text In-Reply-To: <891c3d0ef6ab77d0225615ae6e8d67fb@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227079086.23782.17990639532032573046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (sorry for the truncated text which was sent earlier) Dear list members, since it is my post which is planned to be sacked when I leave office in 2012 I would like to thank Michael for his enduring efforts, which outshine everything that has been done in this respect anywhere in Germany. May I recall the basic fact: it was planned that the dept. of Indian Philology moved to the Humboldt-University in town. This was not a bad idea, given the depts. of Indian history already there. The shift over there was planned to be accompanied by a shift of the Egyptian Archaeology from there to us, the Free University. This way no university would have been forced to augment its staff, just a swapping of depts. with no financial burden involved would take place. Unfortunately, the Egyptian Archaeology refused to move and the president of the Humboldt university missed the occasion to kick them over par ordre du moufti. Our president had firmly planned for a future without Indian Philology. Now that I cannot go - because the Egyptian Archaeologists don't come - he still sticks to this plan. What is worse: he refuses to talk about our field with me or anyone else who could make him change his mind. He and his colleague at the Humboldt-University should be reminded that no higher authority, like the senator for education and science in town or the Wissenschaftsrat, has ever pleaded for a closure of Indian Philology, and that even with the missed swapping no additional personal is to be paid anywhere. All arguments regarding the importance of the field, its long history in town, Sanskrit, Indian history etc. will be accepted as important, but they will not be taken into account. At least at present. No one should expect an instant result; however, as long as complaints from all over the world keep pouring in these two presidents will be reminded of something they have to deal with. Just say that - there never was a plan to erase Indian philology - no additional money is needed since the swapping would not have changed the number of staff - South Asian studies in Germany are important for similar studies in your country (don't laugh). The fact that you write is more important compared to what and how much you write. Still, some sort of impetus may not be superfluous. To all who have already written, and to those who do it now, I feel deeply obliged. Please address your contribution to The President of the Humboldt University, Berlin The President of the Free University, Berlin The Senator for Science and Education, Senate of Berlin through Michael's distributer: berlinindology at gmail.com Thank you so much, Harry Falk From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Fri Jan 5 17:14:41 2007 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 18:14:41 +0100 Subject: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) In-Reply-To: <00a001c730e9$d4ae89b0$0101c80a@userb092132c7c> Message-ID: <161227079089.23782.3220235998189426160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you! The addressees are named in the full text which should reach you soon. Best regards, Harry Falk Ithamar Theodor schrieb: > I, for one, would like to write a letter and send it through e-mail. > Kindly supply the name and position of the person or persons to be > addressed, and my letter will shortly follow. > > With best regards, > Ithamar Theodor > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Falk" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) > > >> Dear list members, >> since it is my post which is planned to be sacked when I leave office >> in 2012 I would like to thank Michael for his enduring efforts, which >> outshine everything that has been done in this respect anywhere in >> Germany. >> May I recall the basic fact: it was planned that the dept. of >> Indian Philology moved to the Humboldt-University in town. This was >> not a bad idea, given the depts. of Indian history already there. The >> shift over there was planned to be accompanied by a shift of the >> Egyptian Archaeology from there to us, the Free University. This way >> no university would have been forced to augment its staff, just a >> swapping of depts. with no financial burden involved would take place. >> Unfortunately, the Egyptian Archaeology refused to move and the >> president of the Humboldt universtiy missed the occasion to kick them >> over par ordre du moufti. >> Our president had firmly planned for a future without Indian >> Philology. Now that I cannot go - because the Egyptian Archaeologists >> don't come - he still sticks to this plan. What is worse: he refuses >> to talk about our field with me or anyone else who could make him >> change his mind. >> He and his colleague at the Humboldt-University should be reminded >> that no higher authority, like the senator for education and sciences >> in town or the Wissenschaftsrat, has ever pleaded for a closure of >> Indian Philology, and that even with the missed swapping no additional >> personal is to be paid anywhere. >> All arguments regarding the importance of the field, its long >> history in town, Sanskrit, Indian history etc. will be accepted as >> important, but they will not be taken into account. At least at >> present. No one should expect an instant result; however, as long as >> complaints from all over the world keep pouring in these two >> presidents will be reminded of something they have to deal with. Just >> say that >> - there never was a plan to erase Indian philology >> - no additional money is needed since the swapping would not have >> changed the number of staff >> - >> >> >> Michael Witzel schrieb: >>> Dear List members, >>> >>> Before Christmas, I have written to you about the planned closure of >>> the Berlin Indology department. >>> >>> Many of you have already written to the Berlin authorities then. >>> >>> However, a second push may not hurt, as the case is by *no means* >>> closed yet. >>> >>> So, please, those of you who have not yet written, do so now during >>> the New Year break! >>> >>> As you know, we have set up an email address to which you can send >>> your letters: >>> >>> berlinindology at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> If you want to write *directly* to the various authorities concerned, >>> please let me know, and I will then send you the proper addresses. >>> >>> >>> [[ By the way, someone (the World Sanskrit Association?) should >>> organize such efforts worldwide, as cutbacks in all classical fields, >>> from Latin and Greek to Chinese, are and will be with us for a while. >>> Eventually, even administrators and politicians will recognize that >>> you have to know a bit more about the world's civilizations than just >>> current elections and economics... ]] >>> >>> With many thanks >>> and best wishes for 2007, >>> Michael Witzel >>> >>> ----------------------- >>> >>> Please select from the following or compose a letter yourself. >>> >>> Just a few lines will do! >>> >>> ================================================= >>> >>> To whom it may concern: >>> >>> A few days weeks we have learned, worldwide, that Indian Studies in >>> Berlin are to be abolished. I therefore write to you to request to >>> preserve the world famous Institute of Indology. >>> >>> This does not only concern modern South Asian Studies, that still are >>> well represented, but also ?Classical Indology? or ?Indian Philology?. >>> >>> Classical Indian Philology has existed at Berlin since 1821, and the >>> discipline has been continued at Humboldt University even after 1945 >>> by Professors Ruben and Morgenroth, as well as at the new institute >>> of the Freie Universitaet (Prof.s Bruhn and Falk). Indology >>> prominently deals with the indigenous weltanschauung, religion and >>> history of thought, as they are represented in Sanskrit and other >>> texts. Without this kind of background modern India cannot be >>> understood. >>> >>> The study of the Sanskrit language, that was one of the official >>> languages in India until 1835, is essential for any understanding of >>> the immense number of Indian texts, from c. 1500 BCE until today, for >>> example in fields such as traditional Indian medicine (Ayurveda) or >>> indigenous Indian linguistics (Panini), a field that has supplied >>> important stimuli to western linguistics. >>> >>> As is obvious even from this minimal discussion, modern India can >>> only be understood -- just as any other important civilization ? if >>> one studies its foundational texts and their impact during the >>> medieval and modern periods. (I have constantly experienced that >>> myself during my five years stay in South Asia.) Indian history, >>> spanning some 5000 years, is becoming ever more important even in the >>> political arena, for example during the past elections of 2004, which >>> had the effect that even classical philologists were drawn into the >>> fray, whether they wanted or not. >>> >>> Consequently, both modern as well a classical Indology are >>> essential. We appeal to you to continue both branches of our >>> discipline. >>> >>> Berlin Indology can look back, as mentioned, to a tradition spanning >>> some 200 years. Many internationally famous scholars have emerged >>> from Berlin. In the early 19th century, the study of India belonged >>> to one of the major points of Humboldt?s reform of the German >>> Universities. This should not be forgotten now that India receives >>> great attention worldwide, as it grows economically and politically. >>> >>> Finally, it may be added that German Indology has a very good name in >>> India, as Indologists have seriously endeavored to study Indian >>> culture without prejudice. This long-standing and continuing attitude >>> of German intellectuals towards Indian civilization has made Indology >>> the best ambassador in India. It will be met with disbelief both in >>> India and worldwide if the German capital will have to do without an >>> Indian Institute. >>> >>> The preservation of the internationally highly regarded Indology of >>> Berlin therefore is important also for the reputation of Berlin as a >>> place of research. The demolition of Indology would also be >>> unreasonable in view of the large collections of manuscripts of the >>> Prussian State Library and the Academy, as well as the rich holdings >>> of the Museum of Indian Art. It would bring 200 years of a great >>> tradition to an end. >>> >>> We therefore sincerely appeal to you to preserve the discipline and >>> its BA., M.A., and PhD. courses. Anything but this would be a >>> disaster, a waste of material and human capital. >>> >>> >>> Yours faithfully, >>> >>> X.Y. >>> >>> (official position) >>> (address) >>> (email) >>> ================================== >>> Michael Witzel >>> Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University >>> 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 >>> 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 >>> direct line: 496 2990 >>> >>> >>> >>> < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> >>> >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/ >>> >>> <*> Your email settings: >>> Individual Email | Traditional >>> >>> <*> To change settings online go to: >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/join >>> (Yahoo! ID required) >>> >>> <*> To change settings via email: >>> mailto:INDOLOGY-digest at yahoogroups.com >>> mailto:INDOLOGY-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com >>> >>> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >>> INDOLOGY-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >>> >>> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >>> >> > From theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL Fri Jan 5 16:52:00 2007 From: theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL (Ithamar Theodor) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 18:52:00 +0200 Subject: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) Message-ID: <161227079083.23782.17306441808178581866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I, for one, would like to write a letter and send it through e-mail. Kindly supply the name and position of the person or persons to be addressed, and my letter will shortly follow. With best regards, Ithamar Theodor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Falk" To: Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) > Dear list members, > since it is my post which is planned to be sacked when I leave office in > 2012 I would like to thank Michael for his enduring efforts, which > outshine everything that has been done in this respect anywhere in > Germany. > May I recall the basic fact: it was planned that the dept. of Indian > Philology moved to the Humboldt-University in town. This was not a bad > idea, given the depts. of Indian history already there. The shift over > there was planned to be accompanied by a shift of the Egyptian Archaeology > from there to us, the Free University. This way no university would have > been forced to augment its staff, just a swapping of depts. with no > financial burden involved would take place. Unfortunately, the Egyptian > Archaeology refused to move and the president of the Humboldt universtiy > missed the occasion to kick them over par ordre du moufti. > Our president had firmly planned for a future without Indian Philology. > Now that I cannot go - because the Egyptian Archaeologists don't come - he > still sticks to this plan. What is worse: he refuses to talk about our > field with me or anyone else who could make him change his mind. > He and his colleague at the Humboldt-University should be reminded that > no higher authority, like the senator for education and sciences in town > or the Wissenschaftsrat, has ever pleaded for a closure of Indian > Philology, and that even with the missed swapping no additional personal > is to be paid anywhere. > All arguments regarding the importance of the field, its long history > in town, Sanskrit, Indian history etc. will be accepted as important, but > they will not be taken into account. At least at present. No one should > expect an instant result; however, as long as complaints from all over the > world keep pouring in these two presidents will be reminded of something > they have to deal with. Just say that > - there never was a plan to erase Indian philology > - no additional money is needed since the swapping would not have changed > the number of staff > - > > > Michael Witzel schrieb: >> Dear List members, >> >> Before Christmas, I have written to you about the planned closure of the >> Berlin Indology department. >> >> Many of you have already written to the Berlin authorities then. >> >> However, a second push may not hurt, as the case is by *no means* closed >> yet. >> >> So, please, those of you who have not yet written, do so now during the >> New Year break! >> >> As you know, we have set up an email address to which you can send your >> letters: >> >> berlinindology at gmail.com >> >> >> If you want to write *directly* to the various authorities concerned, >> please let me know, and I will then send you the proper addresses. >> >> >> [[ By the way, someone (the World Sanskrit Association?) should organize >> such efforts worldwide, as cutbacks in all classical fields, from Latin >> and Greek to Chinese, are and will be with us for a while. Eventually, >> even administrators and politicians will recognize that you have to know >> a bit more about the world's civilizations than just current elections >> and economics... ]] >> >> With many thanks >> and best wishes for 2007, >> Michael Witzel >> >> ----------------------- >> >> Please select from the following or compose a letter yourself. >> >> Just a few lines will do! >> >> ================================================= >> >> To whom it may concern: >> >> A few days weeks we have learned, worldwide, that Indian Studies in >> Berlin are to be abolished. I therefore write to you to request to >> preserve the world famous Institute of Indology. >> >> This does not only concern modern South Asian Studies, that still are >> well represented, but also ?Classical Indology? or ?Indian Philology?. >> >> Classical Indian Philology has existed at Berlin since 1821, and the >> discipline has been continued at Humboldt University even after 1945 by >> Professors Ruben and Morgenroth, as well as at the new institute of the >> Freie Universitaet (Prof.s Bruhn and Falk). Indology prominently deals >> with the indigenous weltanschauung, religion and history of thought, as >> they are represented in Sanskrit and other texts. Without this kind of >> background modern India cannot be understood. >> >> The study of the Sanskrit language, that was one of the official >> languages in India until 1835, is essential for any understanding of the >> immense number of Indian texts, from c. 1500 BCE until today, for example >> in fields such as traditional Indian medicine (Ayurveda) or indigenous >> Indian linguistics (Panini), a field that has supplied important stimuli >> to western linguistics. >> >> As is obvious even from this minimal discussion, modern India can only be >> understood -- just as any other important civilization ? if one studies >> its foundational texts and their impact during the medieval and modern >> periods. (I have constantly experienced that myself during my five years >> stay in South Asia.) Indian history, spanning some 5000 years, is >> becoming ever more important even in the political arena, for example >> during the past elections of 2004, which had the effect that even >> classical philologists were drawn into the fray, whether they wanted or >> not. >> >> Consequently, both modern as well a classical Indology are essential. We >> appeal to you to continue both branches of our discipline. >> >> Berlin Indology can look back, as mentioned, to a tradition spanning some >> 200 years. Many internationally famous scholars have emerged from Berlin. >> In the early 19th century, the study of India belonged to one of the >> major points of Humboldt?s reform of the German Universities. This should >> not be forgotten now that India receives great attention worldwide, as it >> grows economically and politically. >> >> Finally, it may be added that German Indology has a very good name in >> India, as Indologists have seriously endeavored to study Indian culture >> without prejudice. This long-standing and continuing attitude of German >> intellectuals towards Indian civilization has made Indology the best >> ambassador in India. It will be met with disbelief both in India and >> worldwide if the German capital will have to do without an Indian >> Institute. >> >> The preservation of the internationally highly regarded Indology of >> Berlin therefore is important also for the reputation of Berlin as a >> place of research. The demolition of Indology would also be >> unreasonable in view of the large collections of manuscripts of the >> Prussian State Library and the Academy, as well as the rich holdings of >> the Museum of Indian Art. It would bring 200 years of a great tradition >> to an end. >> >> We therefore sincerely appeal to you to preserve the discipline and its >> BA., M.A., and PhD. courses. Anything but this would be a disaster, a >> waste of material and human capital. >> >> >> Yours faithfully, >> >> X.Y. >> >> (official position) >> (address) >> (email) >> ================================== >> Michael Witzel >> Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University >> 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 >> 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 >> direct line: 496 2990 >> >> >> >> < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/ >> >> <*> Your email settings: >> Individual Email | Traditional >> >> <*> To change settings online go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/join >> (Yahoo! ID required) >> >> <*> To change settings via email: >> mailto:INDOLOGY-digest at yahoogroups.com >> mailto:INDOLOGY-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> INDOLOGY-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > From acollins at GCI.NET Sat Jan 6 05:35:28 2007 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 07 20:35:28 -0900 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <48035.31534.qm@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079100.23782.17025539337510505335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have no desire to pour ghrta onto this fire, but regarding Nazism and German Indology, I believe that J.W. Hauer was involved with the ideology in the late 1930s. Further, at this time he was closely associated with the psychologist C.G. Jung who also fell into the trap. This is long-term memory research and not documented, but a quick google revealed the following: "To briefly summarize my judgement," wrote Jakob Wilhelm Hauer, Professor of Religion at the University of Tuebingen and member of the Secret Service of the S.S., "every undertaking and activity of anthroposophy necessarily arises out of the Anthroposophical world view. The anthroposophical world view is in the most important points directly opposed to National Socialism. Therefore, schools which are built out of the anthroposophical world view and led by anthroposophists mean danger to true German education." My own teacher, Edgar Polome, fled Belgium one step ahead of the Wehrmacht. I add that I am myself a Jungian psychologist and an admirer of Hauer's work on yoga. Alfred Collins From hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU Sat Jan 6 06:01:35 2007 From: hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 07 00:01:35 -0600 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" Message-ID: <161227079103.23782.4096004037596013133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not to forget W?st! Hans Henrich Hock ---- Original message ---- >Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:35:28 -0900 >From: Alfred Collins >Subject: Re: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > >I have no desire to pour ghrta onto this fire, but regarding Nazism and German Indology, I believe that J.W. Hauer was involved with the ideology in the late 1930s. Further, at this time he was closely associated with the psychologist C.G. Jung who also fell into the trap. This is long-term memory research and not documented, but a quick google revealed the following: "To briefly summarize my judgement," wrote Jakob Wilhelm Hauer, Professor of Religion at the University of Tuebingen and member of the Secret Service of the S.S., "every undertaking and activity of anthroposophy necessarily arises out of the Anthroposophical world view. The anthroposophical world view is in the most important points directly opposed to National Socialism. Therefore, schools which are built out of the anthroposophical world view and led by anthroposophists mean danger to true German education." > >My own teacher, Edgar Polome, fled Belgium one step ahead of the Wehrmacht. > >I add that I am myself a Jungian psychologist and an admirer of Hauer's work on yoga. > >Alfred Collins Hans Henrich Hock Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit Department of Linguistics 4080 FLB, MC-168 University of Illinois 707 S. Mathews Urbana, IL 61801-3652, USA Tel. 1-217-333-3563, Fax 1-217-244-8430 E-mail hhhock at uiuc.edu Ceterum censeo curiam internationalem iuris criminalis esse instituendam consensu senatus populique americani From theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL Sun Jan 7 15:42:04 2007 From: theodor at RESEARCH.HAIFA.AC.IL (Ithamar Theodor) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 07 17:42:04 +0200 Subject: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) Message-ID: <161227079106.23782.12008183489881599143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harry, Enclosed please find a copy of my letter sent today. With best regards, Ithamar The Chair Department of Indian Philology Free University Berlin I am writing this letter in order to express my deep concern in regards to the plan of closing down the Classical Indian Studies program at your university. I would not repeat the known facts of the long and glorious history of 186 years of first class Indological research in Berlin. I would also avoid mentioning the important contribution of the German Indologists to the field worldwide. What I would like to very briefly state, is that I believe that the field of classical Indology is not only to contribute to the study of the past, rather, it has an important role to play in the future, too. I am an Indologist living in Israel, and am planning to enter the emerging field of peace studies; to my mind, Sanskrit literature will gradually come to occupy a major place as a rich source of ideas for the construction of theories in the area of Global Nonviolence and hence, another aspect of its importance. I hope that this considered, it will help the authorities overcome the difficulties, and allow Classical Indological Studies to continue in Berlin. Respectfully, Ithamar Theodor M.Litt., PhD Dept. of Asian Studies University of Haifa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Falk" To: Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [Y-Indology] Berlin Indology (2) > Dear list members, > since it is my post which is planned to be sacked when I leave office in > 2012 I would like to thank Michael for his enduring efforts, which > outshine everything that has been done in this respect anywhere in > Germany. > May I recall the basic fact: it was planned that the dept. of Indian > Philology moved to the Humboldt-University in town. This was not a bad > idea, given the depts. of Indian history already there. The shift over > there was planned to be accompanied by a shift of the Egyptian Archaeology > from there to us, the Free University. This way no university would have > been forced to augment its staff, just a swapping of depts. with no > financial burden involved would take place. Unfortunately, the Egyptian > Archaeology refused to move and the president of the Humboldt universtiy > missed the occasion to kick them over par ordre du moufti. > Our president had firmly planned for a future without Indian Philology. > Now that I cannot go - because the Egyptian Archaeologists don't come - he > still sticks to this plan. What is worse: he refuses to talk about our > field with me or anyone else who could make him change his mind. > He and his colleague at the Humboldt-University should be reminded that > no higher authority, like the senator for education and sciences in town > or the Wissenschaftsrat, has ever pleaded for a closure of Indian > Philology, and that even with the missed swapping no additional personal > is to be paid anywhere. > All arguments regarding the importance of the field, its long history > in town, Sanskrit, Indian history etc. will be accepted as important, but > they will not be taken into account. At least at present. No one should > expect an instant result; however, as long as complaints from all over the > world keep pouring in these two presidents will be reminded of something > they have to deal with. Just say that > - there never was a plan to erase Indian philology > - no additional money is needed since the swapping would not have changed > the number of staff > - > > > Michael Witzel schrieb: >> Dear List members, >> >> Before Christmas, I have written to you about the planned closure of the >> Berlin Indology department. >> >> Many of you have already written to the Berlin authorities then. >> >> However, a second push may not hurt, as the case is by *no means* closed >> yet. >> >> So, please, those of you who have not yet written, do so now during the >> New Year break! >> >> As you know, we have set up an email address to which you can send your >> letters: >> >> berlinindology at gmail.com >> >> >> If you want to write *directly* to the various authorities concerned, >> please let me know, and I will then send you the proper addresses. >> >> >> [[ By the way, someone (the World Sanskrit Association?) should organize >> such efforts worldwide, as cutbacks in all classical fields, from Latin >> and Greek to Chinese, are and will be with us for a while. Eventually, >> even administrators and politicians will recognize that you have to know >> a bit more about the world's civilizations than just current elections >> and economics... ]] >> >> With many thanks >> and best wishes for 2007, >> Michael Witzel >> >> ----------------------- >> >> Please select from the following or compose a letter yourself. >> >> Just a few lines will do! >> >> ================================================= >> >> To whom it may concern: >> >> A few days weeks we have learned, worldwide, that Indian Studies in >> Berlin are to be abolished. I therefore write to you to request to >> preserve the world famous Institute of Indology. >> >> This does not only concern modern South Asian Studies, that still are >> well represented, but also ?Classical Indology? or ?Indian Philology?. >> >> Classical Indian Philology has existed at Berlin since 1821, and the >> discipline has been continued at Humboldt University even after 1945 by >> Professors Ruben and Morgenroth, as well as at the new institute of the >> Freie Universitaet (Prof.s Bruhn and Falk). Indology prominently deals >> with the indigenous weltanschauung, religion and history of thought, as >> they are represented in Sanskrit and other texts. Without this kind of >> background modern India cannot be understood. >> >> The study of the Sanskrit language, that was one of the official >> languages in India until 1835, is essential for any understanding of the >> immense number of Indian texts, from c. 1500 BCE until today, for example >> in fields such as traditional Indian medicine (Ayurveda) or indigenous >> Indian linguistics (Panini), a field that has supplied important stimuli >> to western linguistics. >> >> As is obvious even from this minimal discussion, modern India can only be >> understood -- just as any other important civilization ? if one studies >> its foundational texts and their impact during the medieval and modern >> periods. (I have constantly experienced that myself during my five years >> stay in South Asia.) Indian history, spanning some 5000 years, is >> becoming ever more important even in the political arena, for example >> during the past elections of 2004, which had the effect that even >> classical philologists were drawn into the fray, whether they wanted or >> not. >> >> Consequently, both modern as well a classical Indology are essential. We >> appeal to you to continue both branches of our discipline. >> >> Berlin Indology can look back, as mentioned, to a tradition spanning some >> 200 years. Many internationally famous scholars have emerged from Berlin. >> In the early 19th century, the study of India belonged to one of the >> major points of Humboldt?s reform of the German Universities. This should >> not be forgotten now that India receives great attention worldwide, as it >> grows economically and politically. >> >> Finally, it may be added that German Indology has a very good name in >> India, as Indologists have seriously endeavored to study Indian culture >> without prejudice. This long-standing and continuing attitude of German >> intellectuals towards Indian civilization has made Indology the best >> ambassador in India. It will be met with disbelief both in India and >> worldwide if the German capital will have to do without an Indian >> Institute. >> >> The preservation of the internationally highly regarded Indology of >> Berlin therefore is important also for the reputation of Berlin as a >> place of research. The demolition of Indology would also be >> unreasonable in view of the large collections of manuscripts of the >> Prussian State Library and the Academy, as well as the rich holdings of >> the Museum of Indian Art. It would bring 200 years of a great tradition >> to an end. >> >> We therefore sincerely appeal to you to preserve the discipline and its >> BA., M.A., and PhD. courses. Anything but this would be a disaster, a >> waste of material and human capital. >> >> >> Yours faithfully, >> >> X.Y. >> >> (official position) >> (address) >> (email) >> ================================== >> Michael Witzel >> Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University >> 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 >> 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 >> direct line: 496 2990 >> >> >> >> < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/ >> >> <*> Your email settings: >> Individual Email | Traditional >> >> <*> To change settings online go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/join >> (Yahoo! ID required) >> >> <*> To change settings via email: >> mailto:INDOLOGY-digest at yahoogroups.com >> mailto:INDOLOGY-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> INDOLOGY-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > From mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 8 02:58:07 2007 From: mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM (Mahes Raj Pant) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 07 02:58:07 +0000 Subject: PuTakinii Message-ID: <161227079109.23782.4581058075835365160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Could you tell me where PuTakiniipurii lies ? I have a few Sanskrit letters addressed to RaamahRdaya, a Nepalese pundit of early 18th century, by the Queen Indraavatii and the pundits Bhavanaatha SharmaN and Bhaiyaaraama. Mahes Raj Pant _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 8 03:17:02 2007 From: mahesrajpant at HOTMAIL.COM (Mahes Raj Pant) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 07 03:17:02 +0000 Subject: PuTakinii Message-ID: <161227079112.23782.6950669115499347932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List I have a few Sanskrit letters from the town of PuTakinii by the Queen Indraavatii and the pundits Bhavanaatha Sharman and Bhaiyaaraama. As I cannot identify the queen and both pundits from the said town, could you tell me where PuTakiniipurii lies ? Bhavanaatha Sharman seems to be a great fan of Udayana and his NyaayakusumaNjali and other works, as his letter reveals. The addressee is RaamahRdaya, a Nepalese pundit of the 18th century. Mahes Raj Pant _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Jan 8 11:43:48 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 07 12:43:48 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <48035.31534.qm@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079114.23782.13498589815172165067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respected contributors to this discussion, Let me first thank you for your contributions, to which I shall reply shortly in a separate message (provided that privilege will be granted to me). Here I'd like to make a statement of intent to counter possible misconceptions. As the subject heading indicates, the issue I proposed to discuss is: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". A few facts first, tiresome though this may be: 1) The quote in the subject heading is from Jan Houben's report on the proceedings of the indological section of the Leipzig congress of German orientalists in 1995. 2) The paragraph from which this quote was taken is headed "Vergangenheit Bewaltigung". 3) The term "Vergangenheitsbew?ltigung" was specially coined, and is exclusively reserved, for efforts of post-1945 German society to come to terms with the crimes committed under the National Socialist regime 1933-1945 ("to come to terms with" being my provisional translation of "bew?ltigen") . Now, if Jan Houben uses this term in connection with what he calls "German indology", it comes as a natural conclusion that "German indology" must have been invlolved in these crimes in one way or another - otherwise there would be no need for "Vergangenheitsbew?ltigung". Next, Jan Houben's report gives an unmistakable hint as to the possible connection between "German indology" and those crimes, viz., "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". In this context Houben explicitly refers to Sheldon Pollock's "Deep Orientalism? ...", where it is maintained that "German Indologists qua Indologists, by means of their specific epistemological tools and sense of scholarly purpose as Indologists, helped to effect the "fascisization" of Germany Indologically" (Pollock 1993:88). What Pollock conceives as the major contribution to that effect is stated in no uncertain terms: "In German Indology of the NS era, a largely nonscholarly mystical nativism deriving ultimately from a mixture of romanticism and protonationalism merged with that objectivism of Wissenschaft earlier described, and together they fostered the ultimate "orientalist" project, the legitimation of genocide" (Pollock 1993:96). And for this purpose, Pollock claims, "German indology" helped to fabricate "the antithesis and finally essentialized dichotomy between 'Indo-German' and 'Semite'" (Pollock 1993:82). I hope not to overstretch my argument, or to offend Jan Houben's strict academic criteria, when I say that his stance on the role of indology in "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" is very much the same article, only repackaged with a decorative "Aryan" label. What I have done so far in this discussion, and what I'm doing in the book Jan Houben is waiting to review, is to assess the evidence advanced in support of these claims. In principal, I see no reason why the assessment of his 1995 report should include his 1997 article and other material he introduces post festum. Frankly, his demand reminds me of another post-orientalist all-purpose stance, viz., "The line of argument in Said's 'Orientalism' (or you name it ...) may be defective, but so much progress has been made since then!", implying that it's perfectly acceptable to throw into the air whatever crosses your mind and then wait what happens. Notwithstanding, I shall take account of all evidence Jan Houben adduces there in support of his 1995 claim of a connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". But that will have to be done in a separate message (provided that I'm still granted the right to reply). Again, all I have asked of Jan Houben is to provide evidence for the insinuated connection. My question does not imply a statement on "German indology" beyond expressing my reservation towards Jan Houben's way of 'theorizing' it. But as you will know by now, I have indeed made a statement on the validity of Jan Houben's theory in my recent contribution to the Festschrift Gustav Roth (2006). My statement is a negative one, and I arrived at it after examining all the evidence he provides there. Now, if Jan Houben sticks to his theory after he has read my article - both of which is evident -, I may be forgiven for having asked what evidence he has for maintaing it. Another question would be how he intends to refute my objections to his theory, but I did not mean to raise a detailed discussion of my article here and now, considering that many of you do not know it. And I think if we want to continue this discussion in a useful manner, we should confine it to what we know! Here and the for the time being. the only thing I assume is a knowledge of Jan Houben's report, which can easily be acquired thanks to the online version. Not so Houben, who now draws my article into the debate, knowing full well that most members of this list have probably not read it. Just the same, he insinuates beforehand that it is aimed at "liberating each and every German indologist of the 1900-1945 period from any possible association with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the pure Aryan race". It is the nature of such accusations that the accused cannot reply to them in a useful way. So this point will have to be left to the discretion of those who read my article. But allow me to say this much: The point I really am trying to make is that I find the evidence - so far as any is provided in Houben's report, or in Pollock's article - inconclusive! The only hint at evidence that I can detect in Houben's report is his reference to the ZDMG (which Houben now tries to interpret differently). Consequently, that is what I have taken as the basis of my assessment, the result of which was that the ZDMG yields virtually nothing that could support Houben's case. All Houben or other members of this list would have to do in order to refute this part of my argument is to quote evidence from the ZDMG that proves me wrong. This doesn't even require knowledge of my article beyond what is said here, only of the indological articles published in the ZDMG between, say, 1939 and 1945. EVIDENCE is the keyword here. A statement that cannot be supported by evidence may be taken as an opinion, a belief, an emotion, in short, anything but a verifiable argument. If anyone has opinions, beliefs or emotions about "German indology" and feel this is the place to air them, I shall be the last person to object. As for me, they are perfectly entitled to any opinion, belief or emotion towards "German indology" they can conceive of, or have others conceive for them - as long as they don't expect me to take them for something else like, say, detached scholarship. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Jan 8 16:08:34 2007 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 07 17:08:34 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <48035.31534.qm@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079118.23782.4807014311000938861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Prof. Houben wrote in his last email (Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:13:01 -0800) to this list: > By the way, did you notice that it has become > quite silent on the list since you tried to open > the discussion on the "Indology and the > disastrous ideology of pure Aryan race" topic [...]? I cannot see what this remark should mean. Anyway, I find it better not to remain silent any longer, esp., as I am one of the co-editors of the series, in which the Gustav Roth Festschrift and Reinhold Gr?nendahl's article appeared. I am limiting myself just to a few points. As for the statement, > Let > others read your well-documented and cleverly > argued article liberating each and every German > indologist of the 1900-1945 period from any > possible association with the German government > and its disastrous ideology of the pure Aryan > race, not only the heroic Heinrich L?ders but > also W?st, Schubring, Sieg, Frauwallner (but he > was Austrian? but didn't he study and publish in > Germany?); Any careful reader of Reinhold Gr?nendahl's article in the Gustav Roth Festschrift (2006) will be surprised at this insinuation, especially in the case of W?st. In his own words Gr?nendahl (2006: 212) says: "Hier erkennt man deutlich die Handschrift W?sts, dessen erkl?rtes Ziel es war, das durchweg philologisch gepr?gte Fach in eine von v?lkischer Ideologie bestimmte Handlangert?tigkeit umzudefinieren." ("Here one clearly recognizes W?ste's signature whose explicit aim was to redefine the completely philogically oriented discipline as an activity that is subsidiary to 'v?lkisch' ideology".) Or, what should the question of Frauwallner's Austrian nationality suggest? Again, in Gr?nendahl's own words (2006: 207, n. 46): "Der Hinweis auf die Tatsache, da? Frauwallner ?sterreicher war, soll selbstverst?ndlich nicht dazu dienen, die Verantwortung f?r dessen Thesen etwa auf eine '?sterreichische Indologie' abzuw?lzen [...]; Frauwallner selbst [stellt] sich nachdr?cklich in die Tradition einer 'deutschen Indologie". ("The reference to the fact that Frauwallner was Austrian should not in any way at all be used to shift the responsibility of his [Frauwallner's] theses, say, onto an 'Austrian Indology' [...]; Frauwallner [puts] himself emphatically in the tradition of a 'German Indology'.") I am looking forward to _evidence_ with regard to Dr Gr?nendahl's questions instead of, I think, giving mere allegations. With kind regards, Roland Steiner From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 9 04:05:34 2007 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 07 23:05:34 -0500 Subject: Why Teach or Study Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227079121.23782.17268577842011227686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well said, John. I could not said it better. Madhav M. Deshpande ________________________________ From: Indology on behalf of John C. Huntington Sent: Thu 1/4/2007 12:59 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Why Teach or Study Sanskrit? Sorry for cross posting I cannot believe, that I am writing this after all the discussion that has taken place on the net. I am neither a "Sanskritist" nor a "Linguist"- Just an cranky, old, art historian who has specialized in Buddhist Art for nearly 45 years. As "humanists" we study those essential activities that define our humanity. Regardless of whether it is our inborn nature to kill each other, make self-realizing and defining art, interact socially, or discuss human goals and ideals,, we are ever so slightly different than other members of the animal kingdom in many respects. Language has long facilitated speculation about human potential. Undoubtedly the rich Burials of the paleolithic era were brought about through the speculation about the nature of death and the potential of an after life. By the time recorded (regardless of whether it is written or remembered) language enters the world arena the entire panoply of religious and philosophical speculations are extant. Chinese, Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit carry within their gleaming traditions, the fundamental underlying ideas of humanity at the highest level. Speculation on what the human mass and what the individual human can and or should become are explicated by some of the most profound thinkers the world has ever known. Whether we speak of Confucius, Plato, or Shakyamuni we speak of persons who altered their world and changed the shape of humanity. Sanskrit, with its surviving thousands of texts contains a totality of positivity regarding the human condition and the potential of achievement in the human state of existence. One cannot be an "educated humanist" without a knowledge of one or more of these key languages. By that I do not mean fluency but an understanding of the content of the language's literature and to attain that, the would community needs the scholars of the language who must have the appropriate fluency to read and interpret the content into modern languages. No one questions the need for Chinese, Greek, or Latin in academia. What kind of preposterous Euro-American centrism suggests that the Sanskritic base of knowledge is not worth knowing? I truly shudder at the parochialism of such a view. The South Asian Indic community is undergoing a vast diaspora at this very moment. When I first moved to Columbus Ohio to join the university faculty there was virtually no Indic community present. Today the Indic community number approximately 5000 and is rapidly growing! The same is true around the world. What a slap in the face of our neighbors and colleagues! Knowing the traditions of our collective "fathers" demands that we study the philosophical and religious speculations of our ancestors so that we can understand their hopes and aspirations for humanity itself. Indeed that historical consciousness and collective awareness of the human past is one of the defining features of being human. And, for a fifth of the world's population, Sanskrit is fundamental to that understanding. If plato is required reading , then Nagarjuna should be also! John John C. Huntington, Professor (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) > Department of the History of Art The Ohio State University Columbus, OH, U.S.A. From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 9 15:21:20 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 07:21:20 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <20070108170834.h8e5v7immtgmossg@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <161227079135.23782.14861381015545565848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am happy to note that no one less than Dr. Ronald Steiner has now stepped forward to give a clear and convincing answer to Dr. Gruenendahl's first question. Greetings, Jan Houben Prof. Dr. Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d'Etudes, Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, A la Sorbonne, 45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. J_E_M_Houben at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 9 16:21:11 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 08:21:11 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A3C9CA.18026.20AACA0@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079141.23782.15996613340168381340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> that's a deal! satyam eva jayate. Greetings, Jan gruenendahl wrote: Dear Jan, There is a nice saying by F. Max M?ller (1872): "Wer nicht der Wahrheit die Ehre geben, wer nicht offen sagen kann, 'ich habe mich geirrt', in dem wohnt der wahre Geist der Wissenschaft nicht." The somewhat inadequate English translation (1888): "Whoever cannot yield to the voice of truth, whoever cannot say, ' I was wrong', knows little as yet of the true spirit of science." Our positions being as they are, there may come a point where one of us will have to say he was wrong. Can we agree to say it then? ______________________ As for the delay in my reply, there is a very profane reason I hesitate to mention, but I'm confident it will not be long now! Greetings Reinhold ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Jan 9 10:42:48 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 11:42:48 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <20070108170834.h8e5v7immtgmossg@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <161227079127.23782.12635661848845790789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (I appologize for falling behind with replies, and sincerely hope that this debate does not distract attention from more important issues, as Jan Houben implies [see below]. But then, I cannot recall that anyone ever objected against maintaining several threads at the same time, and it is the decision of individual members whether they join or ignore this discussion.) Anyway, here is my reply to Jan Houben's contribution dated Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:13:01, some aspects of which have already been taken up in Roland Steiner's reply: Jan Houben wrote: > I still insist you first have a look at the > articles (...). I am very happy > with my 1995 conference report (...) but it > is a conference report and not a research paper. I cannot see where I gave Jan Houben reason to accuse me of having mistaken his remarks for "research" or anything of the kind, considering that I made it a point to show that they are entirely unfounded. And yes, I shall examine his articles, as he insists, but separately, provided this discussion is not shut down. > By the way, did you notice that it has become > quite silent on the list since you tried to open > the discussion on the "Indology and the > disastrous ideology of pure Aryan race" topic (on > which see also Halbfass 1988: 139-140)? (Cf. my introductory remark.) When I decoupled the said issue from the thread "Making the Argument for Sanskrit", to which Jan Houben had introduced it of his own accord, I only did as he had proposed, it will be remembered. My reasoning may again be "marred by distortive readings" when I assume Jan Houben refers to "Halbfass 1988:139-140" because that's where he has found evidence for a connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". This is a typical example of the kind of discourse strategies I have made it my pastime to examine, simply by following up the references provided by the author in question. I have stuck to this approach throughout the article in which Jan Houben's report is treated, and shall do so in the book to follow - which gives Jan the opportunity to come forward with a preview of my book, should he lack the patience to wait for the occasion to write his review. Now, the passage Jan Houben refers to is from a chapter in which Halbfass deals with "Developments Following Hegel & Schopenhauer", both of whom can hardly pass off as indologists. In fact, Halbfass does not deal with indology at all on these pages, but with "the Aryan myth and speculative ideas about India", and the protagonists he mentions in this context are (in order of appearance): Gobineau, E. de Michelis, G. Lanz-Liebenfels and his "Ariosophic" movement (whose "Ostara" journal was read by Hitler), A. Schuler, G. von List, Mathilde Ludendorff and the "Ludendorff movement" (fought in a seven-years legal battle by Johannes Hertel; just the same, he features in Pollock's illusory "NS indology"), Alfred Rosenberg (NS ideologist and author of "Der Mythus des Zwanzigsten Jahrhunderts"), H. Blavatsky and H.S. Olcott, founders of the Theosophical Society (basic information on the key figures is easily available on the web). Within the confines of two pages, Halbfass's survey cannot go far beyond naming these protagonists. (Some of them are also treated in my article.) What is important here: Halbfass does by no means suggest that any of these figures should be regarded as indologists, nor does he propose a direct connection between their "speculative ideas" and indological research. So will anyone be so kind as to enlighten me how Halbfass's survey can serve as evidence of a connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", as Houben insinuates? If this approach can be discarded as a "construct" with such ease as displayed by Jan Houben (Fri, 5 Jan 2007 03:19:49), I have little hope that the former standards of academic debate can survive the constant doses of ignorance and charlatanry dispensed to them in postmodern / postorientalist / postcolonial (you name it) discourse for much longer. Let me give a brief example (which cannot be unfolded here in all its complexity): Pollock corroborates his musings on the would-be problematic side of indology with the following quote from "the proto-fascist Houston Stuart Chamberlain" (whom no one will seriously consider an indologist, I hope): "Indology must help us to fix our sights more clearly on the goals of our culture (...)" (quot. Pollock 1993:86; no reference provided). However, Chamberlain's exercise in opacity actually reads (1905:25): "(...) der Indoarier mu? uns helfen, die Ziele unserer Kultur deutlicher ins Auge zu fassen." I leave it to the discretion of the reader whether this switch from "the Indo-Aryan" to "Indology" at the beginning of Pollock's "quote" should be attributed to ignorance, charlatanry or whatever, but I, for one, cannot see anything "healthy" in this, as Jan Houben has argued. That said, I admire Jan Houben all the more for his proposition to "look courageously at the (...) past , without trying to escape or evade it in a cowardish and hypocrit way" (Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:36:00), especially when this includes the more immediate past and the present, so far as they are eclipsed by postorientalism, postcolonialism etc. But of course, in these spheres courage has to be weighed against considerations of professional standing, career prospects and personal acquaintance (some other aspect of detached scholarship). Nevertheless, remaining silent in public may be taken as tacit endorsement, and can come down to hypocrisy when coupled with lobbying behind the scenes. (More to follow, if it doesn't "bore to death our fellow indology lovers", as Jan Houben fears.) Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Jan 9 11:14:59 2007 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 12:14:59 +0100 Subject: Digital Tevaram (new publication: IFP / EFEO, 2007) Message-ID: <161227079129.23782.11233281299164654295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following publication has recently appeared (January 2007) and is available from the French Institute of Pondicherry (). Digital Tevaram. Kaninit Tevaram. V.M. Subramanya Aiyar, Jean-Luc Chevillard, S.A.S. Sarma. Collection Indologie n? 103, IFP / EFEO, 2007 [CD-ROM] Language : Tamil, English. 200 Rs (7 ?) The ?Digital Tevaram? is a multi-feature CD-ROM edition of a collection of 800 Tamil hymns to Siva, possibly dating back to the 7th and 8th centuries, attributed to three authors (Sambandar, Appar and Sundarar), traditionally called Tevaram, and constituting the initial part of the Tamil Saiva Scriptures. This electronic edition of the Tamil text, furnished with many maps, [which allow the user to locate the 274 traditional sites to which the Tevaram hymns are attached], 109 MP3 audio recordings [illustrating the 24 pan.-s, or musical modes, which are used in the Tevaram hymns and confronting the users of the CD with the variety of vocal styles that are met with today] and a complete English rendering by the late V.M. Subrahmanya Ayyar (1906-1981), combines the features of the two traditional book-forms of Tevaram: 1. arrangement according to musical modes (pan-s), as in panmurai editions of Tevaram, and 2. arrangement according to sites (stalam-s), as in talamurai editions. It also incorporates a concordance, and can be used as a "pre-dictionary" of Tevaram. Keywords: Tevaram, Saivism, Hymns to Siva, talamurai (hymns classified according to sites), panmurai (hymns classified according to musical modes) Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris 7, UMR 7597 "HTL") & S.A.S. Sarma (EFEO, Pondicherry Center) From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Jan 9 13:53:00 2007 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 13:53:00 +0000 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" Message-ID: <161227079132.23782.3136966315294329108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have only this brief remark to make in addition to the previous ones of Houben, Gruenendahl and Steiner: Pushed by the preceding argument over the issue, I critically re-read Gruenendahl's paper, and again, with no little delight. Knowledge of the past depends on "sources of knowledge" and on the way they are examined. In the absence of pramaa.nas, there can hardly be "knowledge". The same applies to twisted pramaa.nas. Let there be no doubt that Gruenendahl uses a flawless, proven and powerful method for researching the past: Scrutinizing those sources and reporting them faithfully. And then, of course, confronting them with the way they had been presented and been subjected to interpretation elsewhere. His approach remains a sober and scholarly one, even though some may feel uncomfortable seeing a long-cherished idea beginning to vanish. In any case, we have to accept Gruenendahl's results as established until someone succeeds in refuting his investigation by equal methods. In all, it is not unlikely that we are witnessing the destruction of - intentionally or unintentionally - construed "histories" by the powers of factual truth. At one point, reality inevitably catches up with unfounded theories. WS ---------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Jan 9 15:58:50 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 16:58:50 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <20070109152120.23638.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079138.23782.12259562659646960117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jan, There is a nice saying by F. Max M?ller (1872): "Wer nicht der Wahrheit die Ehre geben, wer nicht offen sagen kann, 'ich habe mich geirrt', in dem wohnt der wahre Geist der Wissenschaft nicht." The somewhat inadequate English translation (1888): "Whoever cannot yield to the voice of truth, whoever cannot say, ' I was wrong', knows little as yet of the true spirit of science." Our positions being as they are, there may come a point where one of us will have to say he was wrong. Can we agree to say it then? ______________________ As for the delay in my reply, there is a very profane reason I hesitate to mention, but I'm confident it will not be long now! Greetings Reinhold ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Tue Jan 9 22:35:17 2007 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 17:35:17 -0500 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079150.23782.14026172591625428044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, With regard to the question of evidence, which I too think is obligatory if not required, perhaps it will be of some interest to illustrate what I would take to be fairly good evidence of complicity with, or at least consent to, "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" which we have been discussing. The example that I offer comes not from an Indologist, let me say, but nevertheless from a well-known classicist and historian, Franz Altheim. When I was a graduate student at the Univ. of California at Berkeley, I frequently visited the library's room where little-used or duplicate books were withdrawn from circulation and offered for sale. That is how I acquired many valuable books and papers, like H. Oldenberg's Rgveda Noten, vol 1, as well as his "Zur Geschichte der altindischen Prosa." I also acquired Altheim's *Die Krise der Alten Welt im 3. Jahrhundert n. zw. und ihre Ursachen: Bildteil von E. Trautmann-Nehring: Dritter Band: Goetter und Kaiser* 1943. This book was a curiosity which sat on the library's sale shelf for many months. It seems that no one was willing to touch it. As a result, every few months its price was cut in half, so that I eventually bought it for one dollar. The book was published by "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung Verlag, Berlin-Dahlem, 1943" -- a rather ominous title, given the date of publication. But what makes this book good evidence of complicity or consent is that it was preceded by the following Gleitwort: "Ein Volk lebt so lange gluecklich in Gegenwart und Zukunft, als es sich seiner Vergangenheit und der Groesse seiner Ahnen bewisst ist." Signed by Heinrich Himmler, Reichsfuehrer. Was it common that books published in Germany during the war years would have had a Gleitwort from the likes of Himmler? Is there any evidence that any Indological books published in Germany from that period may have had such a stamp of approval? Best wishes, George Thompson JN wrote: > dear jan houben, > > would it be possible for you to please come up with the evidence you > have been asked for? > > respectfully, > jn > > > From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Jan 9 18:24:11 2007 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 19:24:11 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <20070109152120.23638.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079144.23782.11904772772947359990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben wrote: > I am happy to note that no one less than Dr. Ronald Steiner Dear Jan, You are probably refering to me, "Roland", to suggest a contextually philological conjecture. In that case, I missed the argument involved here when you say "no one less than", I'm afraid. Is indeed another more estimated person than myself intended? > has now stepped forward to give a clear and convincing answer to > Dr. Gruenendahl's first question. If you don't mind, I would like to encourage you to do as philologists do: First, re-read and try to understand Reinhold Gr?nendahls first question exactly (esp. his last sentence: "where do these relations surface in indological writings of that period?"). For a better understanding, it could be helpful to re-read questions nos. 2 and 3, too. Second, read your insinuation with regard to Gr?nendahl's article exactly ("your well-documented and cleverly argued article liberating each and every German indologist of the 1900-1945 period from any possible association with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the pure Aryan race") in order to understand my response properly. It could also be advisable to re-read Gr?nendahl's article. Finally, you should say that your insinuation has been against the written facts. Third, read and try to understand my "step forward", as you say, in the light of your new understanding once again. To give you an interpretatory hint: I showed that your characterisation of Gr?nendahl's article ("liberating each and every German indologist ...") goes against the written facts. Further, in that email, I said nothing about where relations between Indologists and the German government surfaced in indological (!) writings of the Nazi period. With kind regards, Roland Steiner From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Wed Jan 10 05:06:28 2007 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 21:06:28 -0800 Subject: More oil on the fire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079156.23782.10270635113868681028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At the risk of putting more oil on an already raging fire (indeed, so far the water which might have quenched it seems to have spread it even further), I might just mention a perhaps interesting book which sits almost entirely unread on my shelf: Christopher Hale, Himmler's Crusade: The True Story of the 1938 Nazi Expedition into Tibet (Bantam) The main story concerns Ernst Sch?fer, but in my very quick glance I did notice a most uncomplimentary discussion of Sven Hedin (who was, of course, not German). If nothing else, the book has some interesting photos which I, at least, had not seen before. Moreover, there is a discussion of the film _Geheinmis Tibet_, which as far as I know is not now publically available, although I would be delighted to learn that I am wrong about this. The above, of course, may have nothing whatsoever to do with German Indology... -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310) 206-8235 fax: (310) 825-8808 silk (at) humnet.ucla.edu From jneuss at ARCOR.DE Tue Jan 9 20:08:33 2007 From: jneuss at ARCOR.DE (JN) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 21:08:33 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <20070109152120.23638.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079147.23782.6832128330288404067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear jan houben, would it be possible for you to please come up with the evidence you have been asked for? respectfully, jn -- ________________________________________ J?rgen Neu?, M.A. Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a D-14195 Berlin Germany From r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ Tue Jan 9 10:23:23 2007 From: r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ (Richard Mahoney) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 07 23:23:23 +1300 Subject: DIGITAL EDITION> Companion to Digital Humanities Message-ID: <161227079124.23782.14650562389443470897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Of interest to some? Best regards, Richard Mahoney -----Forwarded Message----- From: Humanist Discussion Group (by way of Willard McCarty ) To: humanist at Princeton.EDU Subject: 20.379 Companion to Digital Humanities online! Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:08:18 +0000 Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 20, No. 379. Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/cch/research/publications/humanist.html www.princeton.edu/humanist/ Submit to: humanist at princeton.edu Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:34:37 +0000 From: John Unsworth Subject: Companion to Digital Humanities online I'm pleased to announce that the complete text of _A Companion to Digital Humanities_, ed. Susan Schreibman, Ray Siemens, John Unsworth (Oxford: Blackwell, 2004) is now freely available online, at http:// www.digitalhumanities.org/companion/ -- please forward this announcement to other lists and communities who may be interested in the news. Thanks very much to Blackwell for agreeing to this arrangement, and to Jonathan Gorman of the UIUC libraries (and the UIUC Gradaute School of Library and Information Science) for modifying XTF (from the California Digital Library) so that it works with the Blackwell DTD. The editors encourage you to consider buying the paperback when it comes out in the fall of 2007. Also, if you spot typos or other errors in the text, please send them to John Unsworth unsworth at uiuc.edu -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 27 482 9986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ----------------------------------------------------------- Philologica: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/philologica/ Repositorium: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/repositorium/ From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Wed Jan 10 08:15:15 2007 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 00:15:15 -0800 Subject: More oil on the fire? In-Reply-To: <45A4A7CC.8704.4F1ACB@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079163.23782.8121605162748385150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am saddened that my casual reference appears to have been taken as some sort of veiled attack against one of our colleagues, or his opinions or positions. Nothing could be further from my intent. I intended, in fact, no particular claim at all, and merely thought myself of my "contribution," if it can be called that, as akin to a comment one might insert into a rather heated discussion at a cocktail party (perhaps with the naive intention of calming what seems to him, from the sidelines, unneccessarily contentious): "By the way, I've noticed something that seems, but is after all perhaps not at all, tangentially related to what you were talking about..." That this could have given the impression of encoded criticism I sincerely regret, and hope my colleague will accept my apology for inadvertently conveying that impression. If he concludes that I am a fool, as one might judge someone at a cocktail party who makes sometimes nonsensical asides or apparent non sequitors, well, better that than he think me malicious or disrespectful. Indeed respectfully, JAS -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310) 206-8235 fax: (310) 825-8808 silk (at) humnet.ucla.edu From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Jan 10 01:15:28 2007 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 02:15:28 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A418A5.4080607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227079153.23782.15555127594736713021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 09.01.2007 um 23:35 schrieb George Thompson: > The example that I offer comes not from an Indologist, let me say, > but nevertheless from a well-known classicist and historian, Franz > Altheim. > > When I was a graduate student at the Univ. of California at > Berkeley, I frequently visited the library's room where little-used > or duplicate books were withdrawn from circulation and offered for > sale. That is how I acquired many valuable books and papers, like > H. Oldenberg's Rgveda Noten, vol 1, as well as his "Zur Geschichte > der altindischen Prosa." I also acquired Altheim's *Die Krise der > Alten Welt im 3. Jahrhundert n. zw. und ihre Ursachen: Bildteil von > E. Trautmann-Nehring: Dritter Band: Goetter und Kaiser* 1943. > > This book was a curiosity which sat on the library's sale shelf for > many months. It seems that no one was willing to touch it. As a > result, every few months its price was cut in half, so that I > eventually bought it for one dollar. > > The book was published by "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung Verlag, Berlin- > Dahlem, 1943" -- a rather ominous title, given the date of > publication. But what makes this book good evidence of complicity > or consent is that it was preceded by the following Gleitwort: > > "Ein Volk lebt so lange gluecklich in Gegenwart und Zukunft, als es > sich seiner Vergangenheit und der Groesse seiner Ahnen bewisst > ist." Signed by Heinrich Himmler, Reichsfuehrer. > > Was it common that books published in Germany during the war years > would have had a Gleitwort from the likes of Himmler? Is there any > evidence that any Indological books published in Germany from that > period may have had such a stamp of approval? I would say, that the "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung Verlag" as the publication unit of the "Ahnenerbe" was special in several regards. The "Ahnenerbe" was originally an association funded by the SS (in the mid-thirties), later it became directly a department of or in the SS. Its leading figure was Himmler himself, the chief executive and scholarly directors belonged also to the SS. At the onset, it was a playground for certain un-academic theories that Himmler wanted to support in some way (mainly the prehistorical symbol theories of Herman Wirth and the so-called "Welt-Eis-Lehre", a cosmogonical theory by the Austrian Hanns H?rbiger). Later in the thirties, the first director Herman Wirth was replaced by the indologist Walther W?st; and under W?st the organisation took a more "scholarly" turn. One objective was to gain a foothold in the universities or, generally, in the academic world (mainly directed against similar activities of Alfred Rosenberg). This involved funding of research projects. And in this context one has to see the publication of Franz Altheim. It is the output of a project for which he got financial support from the Ahnenerbe (or the SS if you like). Detailed background information on Altheim's involvement can be found in a monograph by V. Loseman (based not only on published but also on unpublished archive materials): Losemann, Volker: Nationalsozialismus und Antike : Studien zur Entwicklung des Faches Alte Geschichte 1933 - 1945 / Volker Losemann. - Hamburg : Hoffmann und Campe, 1977. - 283 p. - (Historische Perspektiven ; 7). - ISBN 3-455-09219-5 Short version of the original Ph.D. thesis: Losemann, Volker: Antike und Nationalsozialismus, Marburg, Univ., Diss., 1975 So far I know, Walther W?st was the only indologist who was a member the Ahnenerbe. Its main focus was at first Germanic folklore (under the perspective of H. Wirth's symbol theories), later under W?st cultural or university politics (infiltration into the university system, taking over of scholarly journals etc.). After the breakout of the war the Ahnenerbe became even more sinister; a natural sciences department was build under the label "kriegswissenschaftliche Zweckforschung". Medical doctors who belonged to this department were involved in experiments with human beings (e.g. S. Rascher in Dachau). On this see the recent publication of Heather Pringle: The master plan : Himmler's scholars and the Holocaust / Heather Pringle. - London : Fourth Estate, 2006. - xii, 463 p. : ill. - ISBN 0-00-714812-7 Gerd Simon, a scholar in German studies from T?bingen, has announced for 2007 or 2008 a monograph on Walther W?st and his role. According to the announcement the title will be: Mit Akribie und Bluff ins Zentrum der Macht : Walther W?st und das 'Etymologische und vergleichende W?rterbuch des Altindoarischen' / Gerd Simon unter Mitwirkung von Dieter M. Walther Back. ISBN 3-932613-05-8 (Due in 2008, according to the list of publications: http:// homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/gerd.simon/Werbung.pdf) All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jan 10 16:01:27 2007 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 08:01:27 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A4E0B1.13021.12D579D@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079172.23782.9867068278149180519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to suggest humbly that this subject has been sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, I thought the Indology list is concerns issues and ideas pertaining to classical Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, occasionally, in the other classical language of India, Tamil (which is non-Indo-European and certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan race," whatever that is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of the history of the Third Reich, perhaps they could start another list. George Hart From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 10 07:36:57 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 08:36:57 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <12283.76892.qm@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079158.23782.3413988309835153346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Jan 2007 at 8:21, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > that's a deal! I'm glad to hear it, Jan. So allow me to suggest the following terms of trade (pardon my "business English", unfamaliar territory!): 1) You or other members of the list tender items of what they consider evidence in support of a connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". Tenders have to comply with the following criteria: 1a) The tendered items must relate to both aspects of the issue, viz., (i.) indology, AND (ii.) "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", in order to establish a relation between them. 1b) The tendered items must be verifiable. 1c) For the purpose of verification they must be specified as precisely as possible. 1d) They must be tendered in a way that allows other members of the list to follow the line of argument. 1e) Preference is given to primary evidence, i.e., writings of a predominantly indological nature that may contribute in any way to "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". 2) I have the right to examine each item tendered individually before I accept the tender. 3) Should I find the item suitable for the said purpose, I shall make a clear and unambiguous statement to the following effect: "I accept this as a valid argument in support of a connection between indology and the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". 4) Should I find the item unsuitable for the said purpose, I have the right to reject the tender, and the tenderer is obliged to declare himself clearly and unambiguously in either of these two ways: 4a) "I hold firm because the examination of the tendered item (under #2) is flawed for the following reason(s): ..." (to be specified and then submitted to the same procedure). 4b) "I withdraw this item and all claims to the effect that it can serve as evidence of a connection between indology and the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". 5) After every item tendered has been examined, the trade is closed and either you or I will "yield to the voice of truth", as M?ller put it, and admit: "I was wrong". Do you accept these terms? Greetings Reinhold ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 10 07:46:05 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 08:46:05 +0100 Subject: More oil on the fire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079161.23782.16159430019670421488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Jan 2007 at 21:06, Jonathan Silk wrote: > At the risk of putting more oil on an already > raging fire (...) > I might just mention a perhaps > interesting book which sits almost entirely > unread on my shelf: > > Christopher Hale, Himmler's Crusade: The True > Story of the 1938 Nazi Expedition into Tibet > (Bantam) (...) > The above, of course, may have nothing whatsoever to do with German Indology... [I haven't quite made out yet what the predominant view on this debate is: "boring to death" or a "raging fire", notions I find mutually exclusive - and equally irrelevant. The same applies to other such "flattering metaphors", by the way.] I'd be at a loss to come up with anything that could be less qualified to contribute to the present issue than what Jonathan Silk chanced to pick up in a "very quick glance" at a "book almost entirely unread". By the way, it revisits what is familiar territory at least to those who take notice of similar (not always scholarly) publications in German, too (just a hint, in case someone is short of more titles to throw at me) - but they probably didn't give the "true" story, as the rather boastful title implies. Jonathan Silk himself seems to have at least a faint sense of this remoteness, shrouded in exquisite irony, of course. Jonathan Silk didn't impart whether he now expects me to enter into a discussion with him. Therefore let me make it clear that I have no intention to take up such random hints at books unless they include a precise reference ("chapter and verse") to material considered relevant to (who saw it coming first?): the connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". "A very quick glance" at an "interesting book (...) almost entirely unread" - that about says it for standards of academic debate, and I thank Jonathan Silk for making this clear. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 10 09:02:10 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 10:02:10 +0100 Subject: More oil on the fire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079165.23782.16307171130157227330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Silk, there may indeed have been a misunderstanding on my part, and if so, I would have to apologize. A "discussion at a cocktail party" - why didn't I think of that in the first place? That would allow us to easily pass from one subject to another, taking a quick glance at this and that instead of struggling with "arguments", "evidence" and all that! Let me assure you that I didn't see any veiled attack in your comments, and I certainly don't take anyone for a fool, as you insinuate, especially not if I don't even know the person. So may I sum up that you have "no particular claim at all" to make concerning the issue I'm trying to debate here? Then I could move on to other things. Respectfully Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jan 10 16:55:48 2007 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 10:55:48 -0600 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070110112629.01d92d20@pop.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227079177.23782.15495241921730781310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please allow me to second this motion as well. The issue, if it is to be further aired, should be aired in its own forum. As I recall, this all began as a digression from the topic of justifying the study of Sanskrit in the contemporary academy. Its proliferation pretty well illustrates the parable of the pipal seed -- like karman, it begins small but in the end takes over the neighborhood. It may be well to recall that Indology is not the only field in which questions of the nazi or far-right ideological background of certain figures has become controversial (Heidegger in Philosophy, Paul de Man in Literary Theory, Eliade in Religion, G. Frege (who of course long preceeded the nazis) in symbolic logic, etc., as well as the many Japanese militarists who resurfaced in prominent academic positions after the war). There are troubling issues raised by this that certainly deserve to be aired, but they can and should be probed appropriately in the context of 20th century intellectual and political history. Matthew Kapstein On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Rosane Rocher wrote: > Please allow me to second this motion. > Rosane Rocher > > At 11:01 AM 1/10/2007, you wrote: >> I would like to suggest humbly that this subject has been >> sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, I thought the >> Indology list is concerns issues and ideas pertaining to classical >> Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, occasionally, in the other >> classical language of India, Tamil (which is non-Indo-European and >> certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan race," whatever that >> is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of the history of the >> Third Reich, perhaps they could start another list. George Hart > From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Jan 10 16:27:26 2007 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 11:27:26 -0500 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <7295918C-6EB5-474C-AF0B-FCE66C77BBA6@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227079174.23782.16253792782778999690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please allow me to second this motion. Rosane Rocher At 11:01 AM 1/10/2007, you wrote: >I would like to suggest humbly that this subject has been >sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, I thought the >Indology list is concerns issues and ideas pertaining to classical >Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, occasionally, in the other >classical language of India, Tamil (which is non-Indo-European and >certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan race," whatever that >is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of the history of the >Third Reich, perhaps they could start another list. George Hart From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Wed Jan 10 10:57:33 2007 From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 11:57:33 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A418A5.4080607@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227079168.23782.15523694154395716955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear George, "Ahnenerbe" was an institution run by Himmler and the likes. Its chief was Alfred Rosenberg, a fanatical nazi, hanged N?rnberg 1946. Altheim was a classical philologist, became professor 1948 in Halle for "History of Antiquity" and taught from 1950-1964 at the Free University Berlin, which was founded with the substantial help of the American forces in Berlin. He had been close to the Nazis, but was, different from many others, also a very productive and leading historian. In the present discussion we have to keep in mind: - Altheim is NOT an indologist (and the discussion centres around indologists and not around indo-arians christened indologists, nor historians writing inter alia on matters Indian). Yesterday by chance I looked up the history of the German Research Foundation in the 3rd Reich described in a recent research publication and checked the register for indologists. Only one was found dealt with, Heinrich L?ders, and he was not part of those scientists who did whatever the party asked from them. Instead, he was hated for opposing their streamlining the society. Altheim may have had his convictions. Sticking to one's convictions is not a crime in itself, however, he should have listed to Herbert Spencer: "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." By the way, George, did you read the book? Did it contain anything that was worth remembering? Harry Falk From rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 10 20:05:17 2007 From: rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM (Ravindran Sriramachhandran) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 12:05:17 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <7295918C-6EB5-474C-AF0B-FCE66C77BBA6@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227079186.23782.16942501770223414382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> anbulla peraciriyar avargalukku nandri, nandri, nandri for asking the debate to be shifted elsewhere and also pointing out that tamil has nothing to do with 'pure aryan race' (i am still chuckling). vanakkam ravi ravindran sriramachandran dept. of anthropology columbia university new york, ny - 10027. --- George Hart wrote: > I would like to suggest humbly that this subject has > been > sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, I > thought the > Indology list is concerns issues and ideas > pertaining to classical > Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, > occasionally, in the other > classical language of India, Tamil (which is > non-Indo-European and > certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan race," > whatever that > is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of the > history of the > Third Reich, perhaps they could start another list. > George Hart > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. From rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 10 20:09:36 2007 From: rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM (Ravindran Sriramachhandran) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 12:09:36 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <513430.28680.qm@web53512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079188.23782.11063066466263686921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear all i am really sorry i meant to write to prof. hart and made a mistake while writing the address...sorry once again ravi --- Ravindran Sriramachhandran wrote: > anbulla peraciriyar avargalukku > nandri, nandri, nandri for asking the debate to be > shifted elsewhere and also pointing out that tamil > has > nothing to do with 'pure aryan race' (i am still > chuckling). > vanakkam > ravi > > ravindran sriramachandran > dept. of anthropology > columbia university > new york, ny - 10027. > > > --- George Hart wrote: > > > I would like to suggest humbly that this subject > has > > been > > sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, > I > > thought the > > Indology list is concerns issues and ideas > > pertaining to classical > > Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, > > occasionally, in the other > > classical language of India, Tamil (which is > > non-Indo-European and > > certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan > race," > > whatever that > > is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of > the > > history of the > > Third Reich, perhaps they could start another > list. > > George Hart > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at > www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 10 11:48:50 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 12:48:50 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A4C69D.4060100@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227079170.23782.15382412298428063559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 10 Jan 2007 at 11:57, Harry Falk wrote: > Dear George, > "Ahnenerbe" was an institution run by Himmler and the likes. Its chief > was Alfred Rosenberg, a fanatical nazi, hanged N?rnberg 1946. Allow me one correction: Alfred Rosenberg was the chief ideologue and in charge of an authority the name of which would be puzzling by its mere length. Second in charge of the Ahnenerbe was Walther W?st, Munich indologist, and as far as I know, he was acquitted ... But that doesn't matter in the present context, I believe. ... More on this when I reply to other contributions; apologies for the delay. The problem has been solved now. Greeetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From HWTULL at MSN.COM Wed Jan 10 18:35:01 2007 From: HWTULL at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 13:35:01 -0500 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" Message-ID: <161227079181.23782.14635304678084430604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bravo, Prof. Hart! Nonetheless, the discussion has been instructive. It reminds us all of the importance of looking at scholars' moods and motivations in understanding any derived body of knowledge. Herman Tull ----- Original Message ----- From: George Hart To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:01 AM Subject: Re: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" I would like to suggest humbly that this subject has been sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, I thought the Indology list is concerns issues and ideas pertaining to classical Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, occasionally, in the other classical language of India, Tamil (which is non-Indo-European and certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan race," whatever that is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of the history of the Third Reich, perhaps they could start another list. George Hart From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Wed Jan 10 19:20:21 2007 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 14:20:21 -0500 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A4C69D.4060100@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227079183.23782.15845384422181548655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harry, I thank you [and Peter Wyzlic] for providing the background to "Ahnenerbe." I will defer to those who would like to see this discussion end, but first I will answer your question: I have read only portions of the book. I have interest, of course, in the territory that it covers, but not quite so much interest in or knowledge of the era. I prefer to till Vedic soil. What I have read [passages dealing with Buddhism, Gandhara, Zoroastrianism, etc.] revealed no evidence of the ideology that this discussion has been about. I should add that this volume also has a veru useful collection of 142 photographs that illustrate the art, architecture, coinage, of the period, as well as the landscape. Best wishes, George Thompson Harry Falk wrote: > > By the way, George, did you read the book? Did it contain anything > that was worth remembering? > Harry Falk > > From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Wed Jan 10 17:35:07 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 07 18:35:07 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079179.23782.9699709619817845084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Matthew Kapstein wrote: > It may be well to recall that Indology is not the only field > in which questions of the nazi or far-right ideological > background of certain figures has become controversial > (Heidegger in Philosophy, Paul de Man in Literary Theory, > Eliade in Religion, G. Frege (who of course long preceeded > the nazis) in symbolic logic, etc., as well as the many > Japanese militarists who resurfaced in prominent academic > positions after the war). And let us not forget the Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists, Italian and East-European Fascists etc. etc. The role and behaviour of intellectuals in dictatorial societies is a highly complex matter. It is interesting both from a historiographical and biographical point of view. But it is not a specifically Indological problem unless ideological views colour a scholar's Indological production to the point where it becomes irrelevant. To claim that X was a Nazi is less interesting than demonstrating that X's Nazi views had a clear impact on his scholarship. We have to live with the fact that if a great mathematician becomes a mass-murderer, he does not become a lesser mathematician, only a more revolting human being. Moral or political deficiencies in a scholar or artist are not necessarily relevant to the evaluation of their production. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Matthew Kapstein > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:56 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the > 'pure Aryan race'" > > Please allow me to second this motion as well. > The issue, if it is to be further aired, should be aired in > its own forum. As I recall, this all began as a digression > from the topic of justifying the study of Sanskrit in the > contemporary academy. Its proliferation pretty well > illustrates the parable of the pipal seed -- like karman, it > begins small but in the end takes over the neighborhood. > > It may be well to recall that Indology is not the only field > in which questions of the nazi or far-right ideological > background of certain figures has become controversial > (Heidegger in Philosophy, Paul de Man in Literary Theory, > Eliade in Religion, G. Frege (who of course long preceeded > the nazis) in symbolic logic, etc., as well as the many > Japanese militarists who resurfaced in prominent academic > positions after the war). There are troubling issues raised > by this that certainly deserve to be aired, but they can and > should be probed appropriately in the context of 20th century > intellectual and political history. > > Matthew Kapstein > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Rosane Rocher wrote: > > > Please allow me to second this motion. > > Rosane Rocher > > > > At 11:01 AM 1/10/2007, you wrote: > >> I would like to suggest humbly that this subject has been > >> sufficiently explored in this list. In any event, I thought the > >> Indology list is concerns issues and ideas pertaining to classical > >> Indian studies, whether in Sanskrit or, occasionally, in the other > >> classical language of India, Tamil (which is non-Indo-European and > >> certainly does not represent the "pure Aryan race," whatever that > >> is). If some members wish to pursue aspects of the history of the > >> Third Reich, perhaps they could start another list. George Hart > > From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Jan 11 08:32:22 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 09:32:22 +0100 Subject: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread Message-ID: <161227079190.23782.12556181523198763559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (My pending replies to the thread in question will follow soon, provided it will not be shut down.) George Hart, Rosane Rocher, Matthew Kapstein and Herman Tull have argued that the issues discussed in the thread on indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" "has been sufficiently explored in this list" (Hart). Far be it from me to cast doubt on the wisdom of those whom I consider examples of what detached scholarship really means. But according to the general conventions of academic debate, an issue is considered "sufficiently explored" when it has reached a point where a decision can be made. May I therefore as the respected champions of this courageous proposal whether they now consider Jan Houben's claim of a connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" as valid or invalid? (Or may I take it from their eventual silence to my humble request that they prefer not to bring this issue to the point of decision?) satyam eva jayate Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 11 14:55:04 2007 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 09:55:04 -0500 Subject: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread In-Reply-To: <45A60425.30154.E4179@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079192.23782.1249407192669620169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the primer on the general conventions of academic debate. May those who consider themselves in a position to contribute to a resolution of this and other complex and contentious issues lay out their evidence and arguments in fully circumstanced academic publications rather than in the ping-pong of an electronic list in which extended discussion tends to generate more heat than light. Now back to my own time at place, which, for today's segment of academic enquiry, happens to be Calcutta, 1802-1806. A good day to all, Rosane Rocher At 03:32 AM 1/11/2007, you wrote: >(My pending replies to the thread in question >will follow soon, provided it will not be >shut down.) > > >George Hart, Rosane Rocher, Matthew Kapstein and Herman Tull have argued that >the issues discussed in the thread on indology >and "the disastrous ideology of the >'pure Aryan race'" "has been sufficiently explored in this list" (Hart). > >Far be it from me to cast doubt on the wisdom of >those whom I consider examples >of what detached scholarship really means. But according to the general >conventions of academic debate, an issue is >considered "sufficiently explored" when >it has reached a point where a decision can be made. > >May I therefore as the respected champions of >this courageous proposal whether >they now consider Jan Houben's claim of a >connection between indology and "the >disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" as valid or invalid? > >(Or may I take it from their eventual silence to >my humble request that they prefer >not to bring this issue to the point of decision?) > > >satyam eva jayate > >Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > >******************************************************************** > >Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl >Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek >Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien >(Dept. of Indology) > >37070 Goettingen, Germany >Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 >Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 >gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de > >FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: >http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm >In English: >http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > >GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages >http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jan 11 16:04:28 2007 From: amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Andrea Marion Pinkney) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 11:04:28 -0500 Subject: HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070111162941.045ab398@ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227079199.23782.14077080571606043927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I recently sent in my letter, for what it's worth. In the interest of moving debate back to the Berlin-crisis, I would urge other list-members to devote some evergy to please send letters of support to the Berlin Indology account. Sincerely, Andrea Quoting Jean-Luc Chevillard : > Dear Rheinhold, > > you should remember that LIVERPOOL-INDOLOGY > is a general purpose indological mailing list. > > However important the question you are discussing with Jan Houben > is, > you cannot claim all the bandwidth > (there have already been more than 30 messages with the title > "Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" > " > > If that question has waited several years for a clarification, > it can certainly wait for a few more years :-) > > I, for one, > consider that the important topic which was > "HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN?" > has been HIJACKED by an important > BUT NOT SO URGENT > debate > between you and JH ..... > > Please remember that there are sometimes priorities .... > > I won't add anything to that thread > (and won't answer any comment you make on my message) > because that would be a transmutation > of debate into noise > > Best wishes > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > (CNRS, Universit? Paris 7, Laboratoire > d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques [UMR 7597]) > > At 16:18 11/01/2007, you wrote: > > >Dear Professor Rocher, > >thank your for your reply. > > > >As for conventions of debate, it seems I > >underrated the degree to which not replying > >to the question has already been developed into an art form. > > > >Respectfully > >Reinhold Gr?nendahl > From toke_knudsen at MAC.COM Thu Jan 11 19:21:35 2007 From: toke_knudsen at MAC.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 11:21:35 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit (was: Re: How to salvage Sanskrit in Berlin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079216.23782.10097720470775033685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thursday, January 11, 2007, at 02:10PM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: >Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list of >particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes unexpectedly, in >their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a rhetorical device, >but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. > >examples off the top of my head: > >Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. >Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, > scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic > Society of America. >Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. Also: T. S. Eliot (1888?1965), poet, dramatist, and literary critic. Toke From drm8 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Jan 11 17:09:29 2007 From: drm8 at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Rustin Mellins) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 12:09:29 -0500 Subject: HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN In-Reply-To: <1168531468.45a6600c07445@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227079207.23782.4741068610253989760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I certainly agree with Andrea and others that the most effective immediate response to the current crisis is to send letters in support of the Sanskrit program in Berlin. As a component of a more comprehensive strategy to redress cutbacks in Sanskrit programs throughout the world, would it be feasible or helfpul to conduct studies to investigate whether studying Sanskrit expedites linguistic capacity more generally? Statistical evidence might well strengthen the argument for Sanskrit studies. David Mellins Quoting Andrea Marion Pinkney : > Dear List, > > I recently sent in my letter, for what it's worth. > In the interest of moving debate back to the Berlin-crisis, I > would > urge other list-members to devote some evergy to please send > letters of support to the Berlin Indology account. > > Sincerely, > Andrea > > > > > Quoting Jean-Luc Chevillard : > > > Dear Rheinhold, > > > > you should remember that LIVERPOOL-INDOLOGY > > is a general purpose indological mailing list. > > > > However important the question you are discussing with Jan > Houben > > is, > > you cannot claim all the bandwidth > > (there have already been more than 30 messages with the title > > "Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan > race'" > > " > > > > If that question has waited several years for a clarification, > > it can certainly wait for a few more years :-) > > > > I, for one, > > consider that the important topic which was > > "HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN?" > > has been HIJACKED by an important > > BUT NOT SO URGENT > > debate > > between you and JH ..... > > > > Please remember that there are sometimes priorities .... > > > > I won't add anything to that thread > > (and won't answer any comment you make on my message) > > because that would be a transmutation > > of debate into noise > > > > Best wishes > > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > > (CNRS, Universit? Paris 7, Laboratoire > > d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques [UMR 7597]) > > > > At 16:18 11/01/2007, you wrote: > > > > >Dear Professor Rocher, > > >thank your for your reply. > > > > > >As for conventions of debate, it seems I > > >underrated the degree to which not replying > > >to the question has already been developed into an art form. > > > > > >Respectfully > > >Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > From drdavis at WISC.EDU Thu Jan 11 19:18:22 2007 From: drdavis at WISC.EDU (Donald R. Davis, Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 13:18:22 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079214.23782.5680759851006804552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Marcel Mauss (1872-1950) the famous French sociologist and member of the Ann?e Sociologique studied Sanskrit. Best, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list > of particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes unexpectedly, > in their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a rhetorical > device, but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. > > examples off the top of my head: > > Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. > Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, > scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic > Society of America. > Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. > > Dominik > > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rustin Mellins wrote: > >> I certainly agree with Andrea and others that the most effective >> immediate response to the current crisis is to send letters in >> support of the Sanskrit program in Berlin. As a component of a more >> comprehensive strategy to redress cutbacks in Sanskrit programs >> throughout the world, would it be feasible or helfpul to conduct >> studies to investigate whether studying Sanskrit expedites >> linguistic capacity more generally? Statistical evidence might well >> strengthen the argument for Sanskrit studies. >> >> David Mellins From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jan 11 21:23:17 2007 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 13:23:17 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079227.23782.12673823992746888097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also of course T.S. Eliot who studied Sanskrit at Harvard, whence his Upanisad citation in "The Wasteland." (I think Gary Tubb knows the details of his Sanskrit coursework.) Rich Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald R. Davis, Jr." To: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Marcel Mauss (1872-1950) the famous French sociologist and member of the Ann?e Sociologique studied Sanskrit. Best, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list of > particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes unexpectedly, in > their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a rhetorical device, > but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. > > examples off the top of my head: > > Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. > Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, > scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic > Society of America. > Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. > > Dominik > > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rustin Mellins wrote: > >> I certainly agree with Andrea and others that the most effective >> immediate response to the current crisis is to send letters in >> support of the Sanskrit program in Berlin. As a component of a more >> comprehensive strategy to redress cutbacks in Sanskrit programs >> throughout the world, would it be feasible or helfpul to conduct >> studies to investigate whether studying Sanskrit expedites >> linguistic capacity more generally? Statistical evidence might well >> strengthen the argument for Sanskrit studies. >> >> David Mellins From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Jan 11 19:33:15 2007 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 13:33:15 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <45A68D7E.5080708@wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227079218.23782.10813438476379374759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. Robert Oppenheimer, father of the A-Bomb, was considered by the late Murray Emeneau to have have been his best student and quoted the Giitaa, in Skt., at Los Alamos. With this maybe we can qualify for US Defense Department funding.... Matthew Kapstein From gthomgt at COMCAST.NET Thu Jan 11 20:33:27 2007 From: gthomgt at COMCAST.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 15:33:27 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <0538CD0E-0110-1000-F62D-89968EF393AC-Webmail-10014@mac.com> Message-ID: <161227079224.23782.15148099862574650706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sir William Jones. He was in touch with Ben Franklin & indirectly with Th. Jefferson, both of whom collected word-lists from various languages, including Sanskrit lists. See this website posted by Mark Liberman at Univ. of Pennsylvania: http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/coll002/Liberman5.ppt George Thompson Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote: >On Thursday, January 11, 2007, at 02:10PM, "Dominik Wujastyk" wrote: > > > >>Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list of >>particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes unexpectedly, in >>their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a rhetorical device, >>but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. >> >>examples off the top of my head: >> >>Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. >>Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, >> scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic >> Society of America. >>Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. >> >> > >Also: > >T. S. Eliot (1888?1965), poet, dramatist, and literary critic. > >Toke > > > > From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Jan 11 15:18:06 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 16:18:06 +0100 Subject: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070111092344.01d9beb0@pop.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227079194.23782.6119583476881686272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Rocher, thank your for your reply. As for conventions of debate, it seems I underrated the degree to which not replying to the question has already been developed into an art form. Respectfully Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jan 11 16:36:22 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 16:36:22 +0000 Subject: Enough is enough ! (Re: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070111162941.045ab398@ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227079202.23782.13040839344793580440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > I, for one, > consider that the important topic which was > "HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN?" > has been HIJACKED by an important > BUT NOT SO URGENT > debate > between you and JH ..... yes, I agree. I would be glad if contributions on the topic of making the argument for Sanskrit could resume, if there are any. Best, Dominik From hwtull at MSN.COM Thu Jan 11 21:45:19 2007 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 16:45:19 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079230.23782.3572114277555908645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Leonard Bloomfield, W. D. Whitney, A. B. Keith, and F. Max Mueller, are all known to us as Sanskritists. But, let's not forget the significant contributions they made in fields outside Sanskrit: Bloomfield and Whitney to the study of language; Keith to constitutional law, and Max Mueller to the science of religion ("comparative religions") and the study of mythology. Indeed, I imagine the world largely knows these scholars through their "other" (non-Sanskrit) contributions to knowledge. Others in this category are M. Eliade, a prolific novelist as well as an important figure in the history of religions, and (to a lesser degree) Joseph Campbell, mythologist and James Joyce analyst. Herman Tull ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Salomon To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Also of course T.S. Eliot who studied Sanskrit at Harvard, whence his Upanisad citation in "The Wasteland." (I think Gary Tubb knows the details of his Sanskrit coursework.) Rich Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald R. Davis, Jr." > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Marcel Mauss (1872-1950) the famous French sociologist and member of the Ann?e Sociologique studied Sanskrit. Best, Don Davis Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list of > particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes unexpectedly, in > their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a rhetorical device, > but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. > > examples off the top of my head: > > Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. > Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, > scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic > Society of America. > Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. > > Dominik > > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rustin Mellins wrote: > >> I certainly agree with Andrea and others that the most effective >> immediate response to the current crisis is to send letters in >> support of the Sanskrit program in Berlin. As a component of a more >> comprehensive strategy to redress cutbacks in Sanskrit programs >> throughout the world, would it be feasible or helfpul to conduct >> studies to investigate whether studying Sanskrit expedites >> linguistic capacity more generally? Statistical evidence might well >> strengthen the argument for Sanskrit studies. >> >> David Mellins From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Thu Jan 11 15:45:35 2007 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 16:45:35 +0100 Subject: Enough is enough ! (Re: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread In-Reply-To: <45A6633D.2377.181B620@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079197.23782.5500824105198903364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rheinhold, you should remember that LIVERPOOL-INDOLOGY is a general purpose indological mailing list. However important the question you are discussing with Jan Houben is, you cannot claim all the bandwidth (there have already been more than 30 messages with the title "Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" " If that question has waited several years for a clarification, it can certainly wait for a few more years :-) I, for one, consider that the important topic which was "HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN?" has been HIJACKED by an important BUT NOT SO URGENT debate between you and JH ..... Please remember that there are sometimes priorities .... I won't add anything to that thread (and won't answer any comment you make on my message) because that would be a transmutation of debate into noise Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Universit? Paris 7, Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques [UMR 7597]) At 16:18 11/01/2007, you wrote: >Dear Professor Rocher, >thank your for your reply. > >As for conventions of debate, it seems I >underrated the degree to which not replying >to the question has already been developed into an art form. > >Respectfully >Reinhold Gr?nendahl From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 12 02:03:54 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 18:03:54 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45A4A5A8.19614.46BB4C@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079238.23782.17828619982765047533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good morning dear Reinhold and other list members still interested in this thread, Since uncertainties and doubts have arisen and are persisting regarding my conference report of the Deutsche Orientalisten Tag 1995 in Leipzig I propose that I give here my final and authoritative exegetical remarks on points which -- strangely enough, but anyway -- have turned out to be problematic. Why is this exegesis final and authoritative? (1) I am the author of the report, so it is to be assumed that I knew what I wanted to say unless there are reasons to believe otherwise. (2) The sense I attribute to the sentences emerges from them straightforwardly and effortlessly. (3) The interpretation is in accordance with my earlier email message to you which, dear Reinhold, I sent to you on 16 June 2004 (!), and which I paste below for the refreshment of your memory. (4) The interpretation is also in full accordance with publications of mine which appeared after the conference report. Although I referred to these articles as important for my view you have neglected them ever since, going even to the extent of publishing an immature pamphlet in which you spent 12 out of 28 pages on a detailed view which you attribute to me solely on the basis of a distorted reading of the mentioned conference report without seeking interpretational help from these later publications. Regarding the nature of the current list-discussion headed by a phrase quoted from my 1995 report, I agree that if you read any other statement of mine that can upset YOUR construction of MY view as 100 percent identical with another view under discussion in your pamphlet this might undermine this pamphlet so it was for you strategically required, counter to generally accepted scholarly method, to postpone reading them for two years and playing now innocence as if it is only now that I have drawn your attention to them: your pamphlet otherwise explodes like a budbuda. The message pasted below exposes the inadaquacy of your method. This also explains your hurry with the present discussion offending scholars who give their sincere observations and remarks. Well then, over to my authoritative exegetical remarks. Vergangenheit - Bewaltigung (I guess that Bewa"ltigung would have been more correct but here in Trivandrum I don't have a German dictionary at hand to check this) In your dealing with my conference report you felt hurt by "Vergangenheit - Bew"altigung" as you apparently felt it as a suggestion (I suppose) that German indologists of that time have committed crimes with which current German indologists would have to come to terms, or perhaps you are afraid that I am arguing that the current generation of German indologists has to be punished for the misdeeds of German indologists of the previous generation. The formulation Vergangenheit - Bewaltigung is in any case quite clearly distinct from Vergangenheitsbew"altigung which has a restricted meaning, so there is no reason to take Vergangenheit - Bewaltigung in the restricted sense of Vergangenheitsbew"altigung. The immediately next sentence in the 1995 report confirms this, as it says that : "To the extent that indology in general owes a great debt to the contributions of German indology, it also has to come to terms with some of the more problematic aspects of the history of the latter." We see here indeed the expression "to come to terms with" and "it" clearly refers here to indology in general; in view of recent misunderstandings I may add that the indologies of other countries (usually strongly interrelated) have their own problematic histories. It is not likely that at the time of writing the report I was thinking of a necessity to accuse and punish German indologists, because very soon after the conference report I gave a quite different suggestion of how we should try to get to terms with a problematic past: we should try to find deeper and more convincing explanations of phenomena which have been conveniently explained by racist theories. "Essential reading for a well-informed discussion", shows an orientation towards facts, and a readiness to open up for discussion any theory and interpretation ; "Essential reading for a well-informed discussion" does not point to a desire to propose and defend a theorie, and definitely not one that is identical with the one propounded in a publication to which I refer as a provocative article. Coming to the items which I mention for inclusion in a list "essential reading" there is the now controversial reference to certain issues of the ZDMG. As I mentioned in that message 16 June 2004 (see below), though somewhat hesitatingly because it was at that moment not fresh in my memory, there are notices of W"ust in the mentioned ZDMG issues, references to his organisational DMG activities explicitly in connection with the then current political situation, there are articles of Frauwallner (exercise for students and interested readers: try to find them, it is quite easy). All these fully justify the statements in the terms in which they were made in the conference report (provided they are not distortively reformulated). There is much more in these ZDMG issues, much that is very valuable, much good and solid philological work. But two persons we have, these are "some indologists at least" and they kept positive relations with the then German government which itself adhered to an ideology of the pure Aryan race. Obviously, I never suggested that the scholarly articles in issues in ZDMG would be fully or largely devoted to expounding, discussing or promoting Nazi-ideology, but those who explicitly keep positive relations with the then German government are automatically keeping sufficiently positive relations with the government's ideology of the pure Aryan race which turned out to be disastrous (that this ideology was never static and homogeneous is a different matter). The 16 June message and the present authoritative exegesis of the 1995 conference report prove me right in front of the nice quote from Max M"uller, but you don't have to shower your felicitations and flowers on me, nor do I expect any cows with gilded horns, I am happy with the confirmation from my own conscience. iti siddham I am sorry, dear Reinhold, that you have forced me to prove myself right and you wrong publicly. avadhiirita-suh.rd-vaakya-phalam etat. But perhaps this experience will help you avoid some beginners' mistakes when working on your book, beginners' mistakes such as attributing a detailed view to a person (whether a colleague or Bhartrhari or Dignaaga) without first carefully consulting all available statements of that person. Further doubts on the 1995 conference report can be addressed to me off-list, I will, moreover, keep a more elaborate exegesis ready in the near future (it will be available on demand), and post an update to my list of items that may be considered essential reading on our topic. -- When? When? I don't wan't to be taken on a cook's ride! -- On 5 May 2007 (that gives you enough time to read some articles), not one day earlier, nor one day later. Greetings and best wishes, JH (from Thiruvananthapuram) Vergangenheit Bewaltigung To the extent that indology in general owes a great debt to the contributions of German indology, it also has to come to terms with some of the more problematic aspects of the history of the latter. I am referring here, of course, to the positive relations which some indologists at least maintained with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' before and during the period of the Second World War. Essential reading for a well-informed discussion on this sensitive topic should comprise S. Pollock's provocative "Deep Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and Power Beyond the Raj" (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, 1993), passages from Halbfass' India and Europe (Albany, 1988), and selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft. Email sent to Reinhold Gruenendahl on 16 June 2004 Lieber Reinhold, Ich glaube Du zitierst ein Konferenzraport das in IIASNewsletter erschien sieben oder acht Jahre zur?ck? Ich muss mir die Teile des ZDMG noch mal anschauen. Ich meine einige Notizen des Walter W?st haben in der genannten Richtung gewiesen. (Ich weiss das anderen wie z.B. Heinrich L?ders den Nazismus heroisch abgelehnt haben.) Ich war damals erstaunt dass irgendwo in Nummer 99 von "Occupied Germany" gesprochen wurde. Ich kann die Seitezahlen suchen aber wahrscheinlich nicht bevor Juli. Ein Artikel dass "positive relations" aufweist wenigstens mit der Ideologie des "pure Aryan race" ist Frauwallner's Artikel oder Konferenz-Beitrag dass glaube ich 1938 oder 1939 erschienen ist (leider, weil ich Frauwallner's Methode sonst sehr bewundere). Siehe meinen Artikel Why did Saamkhya thrive but hardly survive in Etudes Asiatiques 53.3 ca. 1999. Der grosse Problem ist jetzt f?r mich nicht das Frauwallner und viele anderen so ?ffentlich dachten bevor ende WK II, aber: wie sollen wir die von Frauwallner wahrgenommene Muster sonst erkl?ren, wenn wir nicht mehr an Rassentheorien glauben wollen. Siehe f?r eine Idee vielleicht f?r eine Teilerkl?hrung: "'Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the pramaa.nas in the history of Saa.mkhya." ?tudes de Lettres 2001.3: La rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia: 165-194. Wenn Du etwas ?ber diese Problematik schreibst, bitte "keep me informed". Alles gute, Jan Translation of Email sent to Reinhold Gruenendahl on 16 June 2004 Dear Reinhold, I believe you cite [in your email] a conference report that appeared in the IIAS Newsletter seven or eight years back? I have to look again at these issues of the ZDMG. I believe that some notes of Walter W"ust have pointed in the mentioned direction. (I know that others such as Heinrich L"uders have rejected Nazihood heroicly.) At that time [when writing teh report] I was surprised to see that somewhere in no. 99 there was talk of "Occupied Germany". I can search the pagenumbers but probably not before July. An article that shows "positive relations" at least with the ideology of the "pure Aryan race" is the article or conference contribution of Frauwallner which appeared, I believe, in 1938 or 1939 (unfortunately, because I admire Frauwallner's method very much). See my article Why did Saamkhya thrive but hardly survive in Etudes Asiatiques 53.3 ca. 1999. The big problem is now for me not that Frauwallner and many others were publicly thinking like that before the end of WW II, but: how should we explain the patterns observed by Frauwallner and others in a different way, if we do not want to believe in racist theories any more. See for an idea perhaps for a partial explanation: "'Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the pramaa.nas in the history of Saa.mkhya." ?tudes de Lettres 2001.3: La rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia: 165-194. If you write something about this problematic, please keep me informed. Best wishes, Jan ity uktvaa viramaami --------------------------------- Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Thu Jan 11 17:04:19 2007 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 18:04:19 +0100 Subject: Enough is enough ! (Re: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070111162941.045ab398@ccr.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <161227079204.23782.16227168879857510543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is instructive to see how the attempt is choked to conduct a scholarly discussion here. The arguments for shutting down the thread are as follows: 1. The subject has been sufficiently explored. [Actually, the discussion has not even started.] 2. A topic dealing with the history of Indology (entitled "aspects of the history of the Third Reich") has nothing to do with issues and ideas pertaining to classical Indian studies. 3a. It is not possible to discuss this topic simultaneously with the topic: "HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN?" in two different threads on the same list. 3b. List-members are kept away from devoting energy to the "Berlin-crisis". 4. One should only deal with questions whose clarifications cannot wait for a few new years. Or, to put it summarily in simple words: Enough is enough! With kind regards, Roland Steimer From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 12 02:07:04 2007 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 18:07:04 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <195674.98613.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079240.23782.3088883600569562995.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:03 PM, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Good morning dear Reinhold and other list members still interested > in this thread, > > Since uncertainties and doubts have arisen and are persisting > regarding my conference report of the Deutsche Orientalisten Tag > 1995 in Leipzig I propose that I give here my final and > authoritative exegetical remarks on points which -- strangely > enough, but anyway -- have turned out to be problematic. Why is > this exegesis final and authoritative? > (1) I am the author of the report, so it is to be assumed that I > knew what I wanted to say unless there are reasons to believe > otherwise. > (2) The sense I attribute to the sentences emerges from them > straightforwardly and effortlessly. > (3) The interpretation is in accordance with my earlier email > message to you which, dear Reinhold, I sent to you on 16 June 2004 > (!), and which I paste below for the refreshment of your memory. > (4) The interpretation is also in full accordance with > publications of mine which appeared after the conference report. > Although I referred to these articles as important for my view you > have neglected them ever since, going even to the extent of > publishing an immature pamphlet in which you spent 12 out of 28 > pages on a detailed view which you attribute to me solely on the > basis of a distorted reading of the mentioned conference report > without seeking interpretational help from these later publications. > > Regarding the nature of the current list-discussion headed by a > phrase quoted from my 1995 report, I agree that if you read any > other statement of mine that can upset YOUR construction of MY view > as 100 percent identical with another view under discussion in your > pamphlet this might undermine this pamphlet so it was for you > strategically required, counter to generally accepted scholarly > method, to postpone reading them for two years and playing now > innocence as if it is only now that I have drawn your attention to > them: your pamphlet otherwise explodes like a budbuda. The message > pasted below exposes the inadaquacy of your method. This also > explains your hurry with the present discussion offending scholars > who give their sincere observations and remarks. > > Well then, over to my authoritative exegetical remarks. > > Vergangenheit - Bewaltigung (I guess that Bewa"ltigung would have > been more correct but here in Trivandrum I don't have a German > dictionary at hand to check this) > > In your dealing with my conference report you felt hurt by > "Vergangenheit - Bew"altigung" as you apparently felt it as a > suggestion (I suppose) that German indologists of that time have > committed crimes with which current German indologists would have > to come to terms, or perhaps you are afraid that I am arguing that > the current generation of German indologists has to be punished for > the misdeeds of German indologists of the previous generation. The > formulation Vergangenheit - Bewaltigung is in any case quite > clearly distinct from Vergangenheitsbew"altigung which has a > restricted meaning, so there is no reason to take Vergangenheit - > Bewaltigung in the restricted sense of Vergangenheitsbew"altigung. > The immediately next sentence in the 1995 report confirms this, as > it says that : > "To the extent that indology in general owes a great debt to the > contributions of German indology, it also has to come to terms with > some of the more problematic aspects of the history of the latter." > We see here indeed the expression "to come to terms with" and > "it" clearly refers here to indology in general; in view of recent > misunderstandings I may add that the indologies of other countries > (usually strongly interrelated) have their own problematic > histories. It is not likely that at the time of writing the report > I was thinking of a necessity to accuse and punish German > indologists, because very soon after the conference report I gave a > quite different suggestion of how we should try to get to terms > with a problematic past: we should try to find deeper and more > convincing explanations of phenomena which have been conveniently > explained by racist theories. > "Essential reading for a well-informed discussion", shows an > orientation towards facts, and a readiness to open up for > discussion any theory and interpretation ; "Essential reading for a > well-informed discussion" does not point to a desire to propose and > defend a theorie, and definitely not one that is identical with the > one propounded in a publication to which I refer as a provocative > article. > Coming to the items which I mention for inclusion in a list > "essential reading" there is the now controversial reference to > certain issues of the ZDMG. > As I mentioned in that message 16 June 2004 (see below), though > somewhat hesitatingly because it was at that moment not fresh in my > memory, there are notices of W"ust in the mentioned ZDMG issues, > references to his organisational DMG activities explicitly in > connection with the then current political situation, there are > articles of Frauwallner (exercise for students and interested > readers: try to find them, it is quite easy). All these fully > justify the statements in the terms in which they were made in the > conference report (provided they are not distortively > reformulated). There is much more in these ZDMG issues, much that > is very valuable, much good and solid philological work. But two > persons we have, these are "some indologists at least" and they > kept positive relations with the then German government which > itself adhered to an ideology of the pure Aryan race. Obviously, I > never suggested that the scholarly articles in issues in ZDMG would > be fully or largely > devoted to expounding, discussing or promoting Nazi-ideology, but > those who explicitly keep positive relations with the then German > government are automatically keeping sufficiently positive > relations with the government's ideology of the pure Aryan race > which turned out to be disastrous (that this ideology was never > static and homogeneous is a different matter). > > > The 16 June message and the present authoritative exegesis of the > 1995 conference report prove me right in front of the nice quote > from Max M"uller, but you don't have to shower your felicitations > and flowers on me, nor do I expect any cows with gilded horns, I am > happy with the confirmation from my own conscience. > > iti siddham > > I am sorry, dear Reinhold, that you have forced me to prove > myself right and you wrong publicly. > > avadhiirita-suh.rd-vaakya-phalam etat. > > But perhaps this experience will help you avoid some beginners' > mistakes when working on your book, beginners' mistakes such as > attributing a detailed view to a person (whether a colleague or > Bhartrhari or Dignaaga) without first carefully consulting all > available statements of that person. > > Further doubts on the 1995 conference report can be addressed to > me off-list, I will, moreover, keep a more elaborate exegesis ready > in the near future (it will be available on demand), and post an > update to my list of items that may be considered essential reading > on our topic. > > -- When? When? I don't wan't to be taken on a cook's ride! -- > > On 5 May 2007 (that gives you enough time to read some articles), > not one day earlier, nor one day later. > > Greetings and best wishes, JH (from Thiruvananthapuram) > > > Vergangenheit Bewaltigung > To the extent that indology in general owes a great debt to the > contributions of German indology, it also has to come to terms with > some of the more problematic aspects of the history of the latter. > I am referring here, of course, to the positive relations which > some indologists at least maintained with the German government and > its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' before and during > the period of the Second World War. Essential reading for a well- > informed discussion on this sensitive topic should comprise S. > Pollock's provocative "Deep Orientalism: Notes on Sanskrit and > Power Beyond the Raj" (in Van der Veer and Beckenridge, The > Postcolonial Predicament, Philadelphia, 1993), passages from > Halbfass' India and Europe (Albany, 1988), and selected articles > and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the > Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft. > > Email sent to Reinhold Gruenendahl on 16 June 2004 > Lieber Reinhold, > Ich glaube Du zitierst ein Konferenzraport das in IIASNewsletter > erschien sieben oder acht Jahre zur?ck? Ich muss mir die Teile des > ZDMG noch mal anschauen. Ich meine einige Notizen des Walter W?st > haben in der genannten Richtung gewiesen. (Ich weiss das anderen > wie z.B. Heinrich L?ders den Nazismus heroisch abgelehnt haben.) > Ich war damals erstaunt dass irgendwo in Nummer 99 von "Occupied > Germany" gesprochen wurde. Ich kann die Seitezahlen suchen aber > wahrscheinlich nicht bevor Juli. Ein Artikel dass "positive > relations" aufweist wenigstens mit der Ideologie des "pure Aryan > race" ist Frauwallner's Artikel oder Konferenz-Beitrag dass glaube > ich 1938 oder 1939 erschienen ist (leider, weil ich Frauwallner's > Methode sonst sehr bewundere). Siehe meinen Artikel Why did > Saamkhya thrive but hardly survive in Etudes Asiatiques 53.3 ca. > 1999. Der grosse Problem ist jetzt f?r mich nicht das Frauwallner > und viele anderen so ?ffentlich dachten bevor ende WK II, aber: wie > sollen wir > die von Frauwallner wahrgenommene Muster sonst erkl?ren, wenn wir > nicht mehr an Rassentheorien glauben wollen. Siehe f?r eine Idee > vielleicht f?r eine Teilerkl?hrung: "'Verschriftlichung' and the > relation between the pramaa.nas in the history of Saa.mkhya." > ?tudes de Lettres 2001.3: La rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in > Asia: 165-194. Wenn Du etwas ?ber diese Problematik schreibst, > bitte "keep me informed". > Alles gute, Jan > > Translation of Email sent to Reinhold Gruenendahl on 16 June 2004 > Dear Reinhold, > I believe you cite [in your email] a conference report that > appeared in the IIAS Newsletter seven or eight years back? I have > to look again at these issues of the ZDMG. I believe that some > notes of Walter W"ust have pointed in the mentioned direction. (I > know that others such as Heinrich L"uders have rejected Nazihood > heroicly.) At that time [when writing teh report] I was surprised > to see that somewhere in no. 99 there was talk of "Occupied > Germany". I can search the pagenumbers but probably not before > July. An article that shows "positive relations" at least with the > ideology of the "pure Aryan race" is the article or conference > contribution of Frauwallner which appeared, I believe, in 1938 or > 1939 (unfortunately, because I admire Frauwallner's method very > much). See my article Why did Saamkhya thrive but hardly survive in > Etudes Asiatiques 53.3 ca. 1999. The big problem is now for me not > that Frauwallner and many others were publicly thinking like that > before the end > of WW II, but: how should we explain the patterns observed by > Frauwallner and others in a different way, if we do not want to > believe in racist theories any more. See for an idea perhaps for a > partial explanation: "'Verschriftlichung' and the relation between > the pramaa.nas in the history of Saa.mkhya." ?tudes de Lettres > 2001.3: La rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia: 165-194. If > you write something about this problematic, please keep me informed. > Best wishes, Jan > > ity uktvaa viramaami > > > --------------------------------- > Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from > real people who know. From kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Jan 12 02:26:04 2007 From: kiparsky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Paul Kiparsky) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 18:26:04 -0800 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <195674.98613.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227079243.23782.17524042070131065170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for the preceding empty message. I meant to ask Reinhold Gruenendahl if he would be willing to post a copy of his critique of Pollock's article somewhere on the Web, at least temporarily until the volume where it appears reaches the libraries. Paul Kiparsky From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Jan 11 17:31:51 2007 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner (univie)) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 18:31:51 +0100 Subject: Enough is enough ! (Re: A question concerning the proposal to shut down the previous thread In-Reply-To: <20070111180419.hv4tyiore2k4csk4@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: <161227079209.23782.15559627524377189895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Roland Steiner schrieb: > It is instructive to see how the attempt is choked to conduct a > scholarly discussion here. The arguments for shutting down the thread > are as follows: > > 1. The subject has been sufficiently explored. [Actually, the > discussion has not even started.] > 2. A topic dealing with the history of Indology (entitled "aspects of the > history of the Third Reich") has nothing to do with issues and ideas > pertaining > to classical Indian studies. > 3a. It is not possible to discuss this topic simultaneously with the > topic: "HOW TO SALVAGE SANSKRIT IN BERLIN?" in two different threads > on the same list. > 3b. List-members are kept away from devoting energy to the > "Berlin-crisis". > 4. One should only deal with questions whose clarifications cannot > wait for a few new years. > > Or, to put it summarily in simple words: Enough is enough! > > With kind regards, > Roland Steimer > With all due respect - nothing is choked here. But discussions sometimes develop in such a way that one side insists on certain points whereas the other side, not necessarily for bad reasons, but perhaps simply due to lack of time and access to materials (in this case: R. Gr?nendahl's article that was just published), does not continue any longer. Especially when it comes to internet discussions, one cannot conclude from one party's reluctance to continue a discussion to their being wrong or unable to produce good arguments, or, for that matter, to their "choking" the debate. One has to accept that people devote their energy to a debate when they can (i.e. have no further pressing obligations), and when they are willing to do so. In my humble opinion, the main reason why many of us (including myself) feel that "enough is enough" is that Reinhold Gr?nendahl's paper is not available to us so that we can read it and make up our own mind. Without us doing so, this discussion has little merit at the present point, which is of course not to say that is is of no interest in principle! I myself would warmly welcome a more nuanced exchange on the topic at some later point in time, when the audience and the debate participants are better informed. What I really don't get is the angry and aggressive undertone (overtone? "Unterton" in German) both in Roland Steiner's and, to a larger extent, in Reinhold Gr?nendahl's messages. I just don't understand why they are so angry (but perhaps I am misreading their contributions; moods often get misunderstood in e-mail communication); certainly, more nuanced, neutral and less emotional messages have a better chance to contribute to whatever discussion one might want to lead. Best regards, Birgit Kellner From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jan 11 19:09:02 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 19:09:02 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit (was: Re: How to salvage Sanskrit in Berlin) In-Reply-To: <1168535369.45a66f49e74c3@cubmail.cc.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227079211.23782.2723153543936882493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list of particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes unexpectedly, in their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a rhetorical device, but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. examples off the top of my head: Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic Society of America. Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. Dominik On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rustin Mellins wrote: > I certainly agree with Andrea and others that the most effective > immediate response to the current crisis is to send letters in > support of the Sanskrit program in Berlin. As a component of a more > comprehensive strategy to redress cutbacks in Sanskrit programs > throughout the world, would it be feasible or helfpul to conduct > studies to investigate whether studying Sanskrit expedites > linguistic capacity more generally? Statistical evidence might well > strengthen the argument for Sanskrit studies. > > David Mellins From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Thu Jan 11 19:46:11 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 20:46:11 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079221.23782.15992062247024864128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Matthew Kapstein wrote: > J. Robert Oppenheimer, father of the A-Bomb, was considered > by the late Murray Emeneau to have have been his best student > and quoted the Giitaa, in Skt., at Los Alamos. > With this maybe we can qualify for > US Defense Department funding.... We should not overlook the possibility that Sanskrit may be used by people who would interest the spooks in our secret services... In other words, Sanskrit may have strategic value, and we should try to close the Sanskrit gap as quickly as possible. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Matthew Kapstein > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:33 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Thu Jan 11 21:51:35 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 22:51:35 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <045201c735c6$b62a4a10$cf565f80@allrsdelld8200> Message-ID: <161227079232.23782.11849004606501545980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some more information on Sanskrit and the West may be available in Eric J. Sharpe's book "The Universal Gita". Sharpe discusses the influence of the Gita on Eliot among others. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Richard Salomon > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:23 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > Also of course T.S. Eliot who studied Sanskrit at Harvard, > whence his Upanisad citation in "The Wasteland." (I think > Gary Tubb knows the details of his Sanskrit coursework.) > > Rich Salomon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Donald R. Davis, Jr." > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:18 AM > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > > Marcel Mauss (1872-1950) the famous French sociologist and > member of the > Ann?e Sociologique studied Sanskrit. > > Best, > > Don Davis > Dept of Languages & Cultures of Asia > University of Wisconsin-Madison > > Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Further to David's point below, it could be useful to > compile a list of > > particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes > unexpectedly, in > > their backgrounds. Using such a list would be purely a > rhetorical device, > > but could still be effective in winning some hearts and minds. > > > > examples off the top of my head: > > > > Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. > > Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, > > scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the > Linguistic > > Society of America. > > Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of > structuralism. > > > > Dominik > > > > > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, David Rustin Mellins wrote: > > > >> I certainly agree with Andrea and others that the most effective > >> immediate response to the current crisis is to send letters in > >> support of the Sanskrit program in Berlin. As a component of a more > >> comprehensive strategy to redress cutbacks in Sanskrit programs > >> throughout the world, would it be feasible or helfpul to conduct > >> studies to investigate whether studying Sanskrit expedites > >> linguistic capacity more generally? Statistical evidence might well > >> strengthen the argument for Sanskrit studies. > >> > >> David Mellins > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Jan 11 21:53:23 2007 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 07 22:53:23 +0100 Subject: Position: academic assistant at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna Message-ID: <161227079235.23782.145053367306195442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gaenszle - the new and first professor for "Neue Indologie" at the University of Vienna - asked me to forward the following job announcement. Please distribute it further to potential applicants who might not be subscribers of this list. Best regards, Birgit Kellner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Position of an Academic Assistant at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna The Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, Faculty of Philology and Humanities (ID No. 13/238-06/07/MB), announces the vacancy of the position of an academic assistant and invites applications. Employment can start as soon as possible. The contract will be limited to a period of four years. *Extent of position*: 50% (half-time) *Requirements*: University degree (doctorate) in South Asian Studies or any other field of the humanities with a focus on modern South Asia. *Additional qualifications*: Teaching competence and research interests in areas of Modern South Asian Studies (culture and society, language and literature, history and social processes); familiarity with at least one modern language of northern South Asia. Readiness to participate in the administration of teaching and research. Applicants should be proficient in German or ready to acquire competence within the span of two years; good knowledge of English is required. IT competence specific to the discipline and local (fieldwork) experience are an advantage. The University aims at an increased representation of women among its staff, especially in leading positions and among the academic faculty, and therefore explicitly encourages qualified women to apply. In the case of equal qualification, preference will be given to female applicants. *ID No.: 13/238-06/07/MB* Applications will be received between January 9, 2007 and January 30, 2007. Applications should be sent to: Personalabteilung der Universit?t Wien, Dr. Karl Lueger-Ring 1, A-1010 Wien. For the German text of this job advertisement, see http://www.univie.ac.at/personal-mitteilungsblatt/artikel.php?Art_ID=2916&sub1=869&sub2=647 From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Jan 12 08:05:11 2007 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 03:05:11 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079250.23782.9501803989576025021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Matt Kapstein was not blaming the A-Bomb on the Gita, but merely reporting a well-known fact, which is that when Oppenheimer witnessed the first A-bomb test, his spontaneous reaction to the awesome power of the explosion was to recite, from memory, BG 11.32: K?lo 'smi lokak?ayak?t prav?ddho Lok?n sam?hartum iha prav?tta? ?te 'pi tv?? na bhavi?yanti sarve ye 'avasthit?? pratyan?ke?u yodh?? which, I think we might agree, was an apt utterance for that occasion. Dan Lusthaus ----Original Message--- Speculations to the effect that it may have been Oppenheimer's brush with indology, or his familiarity with the Bhagavadgita (which Heinrich Himmler also was familiar with, by the way), that triggered him to construct the atom bomb can be discarded as absurd fabrications, attributable to ignorance, charlatanry, or worse. Reinhold Gr?nendahl From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 12 07:04:31 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 08:04:31 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079245.23782.5341129458048511648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 11 Jan 2007 at 13:33, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > J. Robert Oppenheimer, father of the A-Bomb, > was considered by the late Murray Emeneau > to have have been his best student and > quoted the Giitaa, in Skt., at Los Alamos. Here it could be pointed out to the Berlin authorities that better job opportunities may have caused Oppenheimer to pursue a career in indology instead of constructing a weapon of mass destruction, the effects of which Berlin escaped only narrowly. (Sadly, this cannot be said for the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.) NOTE: Speculations to the effect that it may have been Oppenheimer's brush with indology, or his familiarity with the Bhagavadgita (which Heinrich Himmler also was familiar with, by the way), that triggered him to construct the atom bomb can be discarded as absurd fabrications, attributable to ignorance, charlatanry, or worse. satyam eva jayate Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 12 07:32:20 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 08:32:20 +0100 Subject: A question concerning the history of Samkhya Message-ID: <161227079248.23782.6877138973764062527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the last paragraph of his essay entitled "WHY DID RATIONALITY THRIVE, BUT HARDLY SURVIVE ...?" (Asiatische Studien 53, 1999, pp. 491-512), Jan Houben makes cursory mention of two papers by Erich Frauwallner, best known perhaps for his "Geschichte der indischen Philosophie" (1953). Apart from that work and an article of 1958, Jan Houben includes a bibliographical reference to two papers Frauwallner published before the Second World War (Houben 1999:507, note 40: "Cf. FRAUWALLNER 1938 and 1939"). Jan Houben makes no further reference to these pre-WW2 articles, being a two- page abstract of a conference paper published in the Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft (ZDMG 92, 1938, pp. *9*-*10*), and the full version of that same conference paper, published in the Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, (WZKM 46, 1939, pp. 267-291). Here is the context of Jan Houben's bibliographical reference to Frauwallner's papers (1999:507): "The observation that rationality was relatively strong in early Samkhya has been made, in varying formulations, by earlier scholars (...). In pre-second world-war Europe, explanations for such large cultural phenomena commonly involved the notion of races and their inborn propensities and capacities." Now, if we hypothetically transpose the said historical observation to another sphere, viz., contemporary concerns that rationality may not survive the onslaught of irrationality for much longer, it may be asked what lessons the history of Samkhya may provide for the present. The question to which I invite special attention is how these lessons, if any, can then be brought to the awareness of a wider public. If this can be achieved, it may well add to the renown of our field of learning as a bulwark of rationality, and thus help to secure its future. NOTE: I'm obliged to Jan Houben for drawing my attention to his essay, which shows that Frauwallner's "notion of races" remains within the general conceptual framework of that period. This confirms my own assessment (publ. in Festschrift Gustav Roth; see esp. 2006:227-230), showing that the contributions of Frauwallner and other indologists to the ZDMG (vols. 1938-1944) show no connection with an "ideology of the 'purity of race'". REFERENCES (select) to Jan Houben's essay in recent postings to this list: direct: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:36:07 indirect: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 03:19:49, and passim satyam eva jayate Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 12 13:34:22 2007 From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 08:34:22 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <45A69F17.7050204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <161227079260.23782.3122457034328048964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friedrich Nietszche also studied Sanskrit. Bob T George Thompson wrote: > Sir William Jones. He was in touch with Ben Franklin & indirectly > with Th. Jefferson, both of whom collected word-lists from various > languages, including Sanskrit lists. > > See this website posted by Mark Liberman at Univ. of Pennsylvania: > > http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/coll002/Liberman5.ppt > > George Thompson > > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote: > >> On Thursday, January 11, 2007, at 02:10PM, "Dominik Wujastyk" >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Further to David's point below, it could be useful to compile a list >>> of particularly famous people who had Sanskri, sometimes >>> unexpectedly, in their backgrounds. Using such a list would be >>> purely a rhetorical device, but could still be effective in winning >>> some hearts and minds. >>> >>> examples off the top of my head: >>> >>> Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician. >>> Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, >>> scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic >>> Society of America. >>> Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism. >>> >> >> Also: >> >> T. S. Eliot (1888?1965), poet, dramatist, and literary critic. >> >> Toke >> >> >> >> > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Jan 12 16:33:22 2007 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 10:33:22 -0600 Subject: River In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079257.23782.1856840887805843000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does any of you know a river named Nairanjanaa? I have not been able to find this in any index. It occurs in Asvaghosa's Buddhacarita (12.90). This is where the future Buddha meets the five mendicants. Thanks, Patrick From kachru at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Jan 12 16:43:52 2007 From: kachru at UCHICAGO.EDU (Sonam Kachru) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 10:43:52 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit (was: Re: How to salvage Sanskrit in Berlin) Message-ID: <161227079265.23782.5660248041248920341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, In Professor Wujastyk's list of those influenced by Sanskrit studies--(1) Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous mathematician; (2) Leonard Bloomfield (1887--1949), structural linguist, behaviourist, scholar of American Indian languages, and founder of the Linguistic Society of America; (3) Ferdinand de Saussure (1857--1913), linguist, founder of structuralism--there are non-trivial relations indicative of major motivations in the development of both mathematics and the humanities. Grassmann's work in group theoretic algebra, and Saussure's attempt to give linguistics a rigorous foundation proved pivotal to the Bourbaki movement, (them who gave us a rigorous set- theoretic definition of 'structure', and who alone seem to know exactly what they mean by such generalities). Among the founding members of Bourbaki was one Andre Weil (brother of Simone Weil), who studied Sanskrit for a number of years, and took it seriously enough to wish for a post at Aligarh Muslim University. Weil is also responsible for the divination of structure in Levi Strauss' field notes as being something more than mere metaphor. This story about the migration of abstract concepts between disciplines has recently been told in a somewhat pop manner in Amir D. Aczel, "The Artist and the Mathematician: The Story of Nicolas Bourbaki, The Genius Mathematician Who Never Existed," though the work is very light on the core mathematical ideas, and does not even begin to address the conceptual possibilities that would be opened up by a study of Panini, Patanjali et. al. (Even just from Saussure's dissertation). Aczel is influenced (to a largely uncredited degree) by the historical and conceptual insights of David Aubin, particularly his PhD diss. "A Cultural History of Catastrophes and Chaos: Around the Institut des Hautes Etudes Scientifiques, France 1958-1980," (1998, Princeton U.), which is a better place to try and probe the conceptual issues involved. A complete story of the relevance of the rigors of Sanskrit grammar and the ideas enactivated thereby would require a more comprehensive assessment of the inspirations behind such (academically) disparate fields as modernist poetry and algebraic group theory in the years following the dissemination and slow digestion of the achievements of the Indian / (here, = Sanskrit) intellectual traditions. It could go on to include such intellectuals as Irving Babbitt (professor of Comp. Lit, Harvard, end of 19th century, with 2 years Pali with Sylvain Levi, a year of Sanskrit with Lanman); T. S. Eliot, (Babbit's student), with at least three documented years of serious Indology, etc. On the side of mathematics we would have to consider such figures as L.E.J. Brouwer and Hermann Weyl. Something of this kind has been performed for Sinology by such literary critics as Hugh Kenner in his "The Pound Era." Perhaps we could begin such a study with the attested last words of Herbert Coleridge, first editor of the project that would become the OED: "I must begin Sanskrit..." From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Jan 12 17:09:45 2007 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 11:09:45 -0600 Subject: River In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079272.23782.9643801323797614800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's generally identified with the Lilajan River in Gaya district, Bihar. Matthew Kapstein From kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Fri Jan 12 10:27:55 2007 From: kengo.harimoto at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 11:27:55 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <004d01c73620$636cda40$91369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <161227079252.23782.13825353814493343168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope this does not go out of hand, but... On Jan 12, 2007, at 9:05, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > a > well-known fact, which is that when Oppenheimer witnessed the first > A-bomb > test, his spontaneous reaction to the awesome power of the > explosion was to > recite, from memory, BG 11.32: > > K?lo 'smi lokak?ayak?t prav?ddho > > Lok?n sam?hartum iha prav?tta? > > ?te 'pi tv?? na bhavi?yanti sarve > > ye 'avasthit?? pratyan?ke?u yodh?? Is this entirely accurate? According to the more widely accepted version of the occasion, Oppenheimer _thought of_ the verse in the form of "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds," at the Trinity test. See for example: http://www.aps-pub.com/proceedings/1442/Hijiya.pdf This article, published in the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, deals exactly with the effect of the Bhagavadg?t? on Oppenheimer. We can watch Oppenheimer himself recalling the occasion at: http://www.atomicarchive.com/Movies/Movie8.shtml This was shot in 1965, twenty years after the test. The tone of the above mentioned article in fact is to blame the G?t? for the invention of the atomic bomb (which I myself find is completely absurd). On the other hand, the G?t? is (in a way) blamed for Holocaust as well. This, at least, is a sad and ironic coincidence. In the context of current discussion, I wonder if listing famous people (such as above) who had some Sanskrit background is helpful for furthering the cause to maintain indological studies. Perhaps it depends on how we spin it ;) Wikipedia has an entry "Sanskrit in the West": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit_in_the_West As a little lighter note, in the domain of popular culture, Madonna had a song in Sanskrit. And as a little geeky note, the theme of the TV show Battlestar Galactica is allegedly the Gayatri Mantra. But, however I try, I cannot hear it as Sanskrit. All the best, -- kengo harimoto From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 12 10:30:05 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 11:30:05 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <004d01c73620$636cda40$91369c04@Dan> Message-ID: <161227079255.23782.17669166944053390658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12 Jan 2007 at 3:05, Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Matt Kapstein was not blaming the A-Bomb on the Gita, ... Dear Professor Lusthaus, Neither did I suggest he was doing that, as you may conclude from my previous message. On the other hand, I cannot see how Professor Kapstein's remark could possibly serve as an argument in the present case. To be frank, I doubt the usefulness of what I'd like to call the "name-dropping-approach" (for want of a better word), even if it was restricted to indologists (which is clearly not the case with Oppenheimer). But then, the last sentence in Professor Kapstein's remark may also indicate that it was made in a more light-hearted vein. Very early on in this discussion, I had drawn attention to the book by Gumbrecht, which may save many people the trouble of having to re-invent the wheel for making a similar argument. Besides, isn't there is a draft petition ready to be signed? The very last thing I would expect from Berlin authorities in charge is that they take more than a cursory look at petitions - they probably get piles of them every day. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From jkirk at SPRO.NET Fri Jan 12 18:33:08 2007 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 11:33:08 -0700 Subject: River Message-ID: <161227079278.23782.17501795480020024922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to recall that it also occurs in Kalidasa's Meghaduta. Sometimes spelled Niranjanaa? Joanna Kirkpatrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: River > Does any of you know a river named Nairanjanaa? I have not been able to > find this in any index. It occurs in Asvaghosa's Buddhacarita (12.90). > This is where the future Buddha meets the five mendicants. Thanks, > > Patrick > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/624 - Release Date: 1/12/2007 > 2:04 PM > > From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 12 16:39:47 2007 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 11:39:47 -0500 Subject: River In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079263.23782.3832095102005304571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Patrick, Falgu river in Bodhgaya, Bihar is also known as Niranjana River. Could it be the same as the Nairanjana, that you mention? Bindu --On Friday, January 12, 2007 10:33 AM -0600 Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Does any of you know a river named Nairanjanaa? I have not been able to > find this in any index. It occurs in Asvaghosa's Buddhacarita (12.90). > This is where the future Buddha meets the five mendicants. Thanks, > > Patrick From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 12 17:01:01 2007 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 12:01:01 -0500 Subject: River In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079267.23782.1761360066953288097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick, this is the Pali Neranjanaa, where you can find many more detail (Vinaya I 1 sqq; see details in Malalasekara's Dictionary of Pali Proper Names. Several (pseudo-)etymologies of the name. Identified with the modern Niilaajanaa (N?l?jan?), which originates in Harzaribhagh, joins the Mohanaa, to form the river Phalgu. (Cunningham's Ancient Geography of India, p. 524, etc etc.) Cheers, Michael On Jan 12, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Does any of you know a river named Nairanjanaa? I have not been able > to find this in any index. It occurs in Asvaghosa's Buddhacarita > (12.90). This is where the future Buddha meets the five mendicants. > Thanks, > > Patrick > > Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 direct line: 496 2990 < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 12 17:01:23 2007 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 12:01:23 -0500 Subject: River In-Reply-To: <41E4391110F0968A6D399999@tswle3a2.cul.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227079270.23782.7345182293247275996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In modern times it is also known as Lilanja river. Sometimes also called Nirjhara. Bindu --On Friday, January 12, 2007 11:39 AM -0500 Bindu Bhatt wrote: > Hi Patrick, > Falgu river in Bodhgaya, Bihar is also known as Niranjana River. Could it > be the same as the Nairanjana, that you mention? > Bindu > > --On Friday, January 12, 2007 10:33 AM -0600 Patrick Olivelle > wrote: > >> Does any of you know a river named Nairanjanaa? I have not been able to >> find this in any index. It occurs in Asvaghosa's Buddhacarita (12.90). >> This is where the future Buddha meets the five mendicants. Thanks, >> >> Patrick From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Fri Jan 12 18:12:36 2007 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 13:12:36 -0500 Subject: River In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079276.23782.13491457184742008000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is the Phalgu that runs north to south between the Bodhgaya and Sugata's place to the east. I have published quite a bit on this in my "Sowing the Seeds of the Lotus: A Journey to the Great Pilgrimage Sites of Buddhism," part I [Lumbini and Bodhgaya], in Orientations, vol. 16, no. 11 (Nov. 1985), pp. 46-61. Some of the year it is quite fordable during the rainy season, it can be a bit more difficult. Cheers John On Jan 12, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > Does any of you know a river named Nairanjanaa? I have not been > able to find this in any index. It occurs in Asvaghosa's > Buddhacarita (12.90). This is where the future Buddha meets the > five mendicants. Thanks, > > Patrick > > > -- > BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Teach CanIt if this mail (ID 189500960) is spam: > Spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=s&i=189500960&m=a072e6a0a32d > Not spam: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=n&i=189500960&m=a072e6a0a32d > Forget vote: https://antispam.osu.edu/b.php? > c=f&i=189500960&m=a072e6a0a32d > ------------------------------------------------------ > END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Jan 12 19:39:56 2007 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 13:39:56 -0600 Subject: River In-Reply-To: <716D2DAC-7054-42F0-BFE8-737B80579AF0@osu.edu> Message-ID: <161227079281.23782.13502850392509957968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for all who enlightened me (no pun intended!) on this important river. Patrick From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 12 19:52:59 2007 From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 14:52:59 -0500 Subject: River In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079283.23782.3115006601454627474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Patrick, happy new year! In traditional Tibetan accounts, Nairanjana river is near Bodhgaya, and it is where Siddhartha and five ascetic companions practiced austerities until he abandoned them and they abandoned him and went off to Saranath. He then ate his square meal given by Sujata, washed, clothed himself in the patched and washed shroud rags, and walked to the Bodhi tree for his final day and night of confronting Mara and attaining full enlightenment. Today there is a small stupa at the place, near a dried up riverbed, and many Tibetan prayer flags and a plaque. Best BOb T From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Jan 12 17:26:50 2007 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 18:26:50 +0100 Subject: Vienna assistant position: now complete with application requirements Message-ID: <161227079274.23782.17532017235693114234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, the announcement of an assistant position at the Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies in Vienna was incomplete in that it contained no information about the documents that are required for application. Since this information is a bit hidden on the university's website, allow me to specify: A list of the required documents can be found at: http://www.univie.ac.at/personal-mitteilungsblatt/index.php?Alias_ID=1&sub1=965&Art_ID=1991 In short, these are: - application form ("Bewerbungsbogen"), linked on that page (found here: http://www.univie.ac.at/personal/form/doc/20060621_PA.B3_Bewerbungsbogen.doc) - CV (signed by the applicant) - birth certificate (photocopy) - certificate of nationality (photocopy) - certificates of educational qualifications, in this case especially the required university degree (photocopy) For the sake of completeness, the full English text of the job advert is reposted further below. Apologies for the oversight, and best regards, Birgit Kellner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Position of an Academic Assistant at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, University of Vienna The Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies, Faculty of Philology and Humanities (ID No. 13/238-06/07/MB), announces the vacancy of the position of an academic assistant and invites applications. Employment can start as soon as possible. The contract will be limited to a period of four years. *Extent of position*: 50% (half-time) *Requirements*: University degree (doctorate) in South Asian Studies or any other field of the humanities with a focus on modern South Asia. *Additional qualifications*: Teaching competence and research interests in areas of Modern South Asian Studies (culture and society, language and literature, history and social processes); familiarity with at least one modern language of northern South Asia. Readiness to participate in the administration of teaching and research. Applicants should be proficient in German or ready to acquire competence within the span of two years; good knowledge of English is required. IT competence specific to the discipline and local (fieldwork) experience are an advantage. The University aims at an increased representation of women among its staff, especially in leading positions and among the academic faculty, and therefore explicitly encourages qualified women to apply. In the case of equal qualification, preference will be given to female applicants. *ID No.: 13/238-06/07/MB* Applications will be received between January 9, 2007 and January 30, 2007. Applications should be sent to: Personalabteilung der Universit?t Wien, Dr. Karl Lueger-Ring 1, A-1010 Wien. For the German text of this job advertisement, see http://www.univie.ac.at/personal-mitteilungsblatt/artikel.php?Art_ID=2916&sub1=869&sub2=647 From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Jan 13 02:50:01 2007 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 07 19:50:01 -0700 Subject: River Message-ID: <161227079286.23782.8134842318619878320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I checked and found that my recollection of Niranjaraa being cited in Meghaduta is wrong. Lots of other rivers are there, but not that one. It wasn't on the Megh's route :) Joanna Kirkpatrick From glhart at BERKELEY.EDU Mon Jan 15 15:41:52 2007 From: glhart at BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 07:41:52 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079292.23782.1582275662934932098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I find myself perplexed, to say the least, that apparently the most potent argument for Sanskrit is that it has influenced a few (dead) white men. Surely Kalidasa and Ilango did not care in the slightest what white people would think of their work. And certainly any dean approached about the importance of Sanskrit would be puzzled at these arguments. South Asia contains about 1.5 billion people. Their cultures and ways of thought have been deeply influenced by the classical tradition contained in Sanskrit (and Tamil). Are we then to argue that the importance of Sanskrit is that it influenced Oppenheimer or Eliot in some minor way? Is this not slightly narcissistic? George Hart From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Jan 15 19:08:29 2007 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 11:08:29 -0800 Subject: Herbert Coleridge on Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079326.23782.13646664201068644988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Herbert Coleridge's study of Sanskrit, cited by Dominik: I remember reading somewhere that upon being told by his doctor that he had only six months to live, he replied "Then I must began Sanskrit in the morning." Perhaps apocryphal, and in any case not likely to affect the powers that be; but amusing for us. Rich Salomon > Supposing one wanted to make Grassmann and the other celebrities listed > part of an "argument for Sanskrit", it would have to be shown first that > whatever they achieved in other fields was in some way "influenced by > Sanskrit", resp. their knowledge of it, as is claimed here. How many > years that would take I find it difficult to predict. I disagree. Well, it would depend what one was trying to do. But I specifically used the word "rhetorical" in my original posting. Remember to whom we are talking. We are attempting to gather arguments that might appear in a press release or be part of a document submitted to university administrators. Such a document should not be more than one or two sides of A4 at the very most. It has to be hard-hitting and very clear. It would be pointless to present a document that tried to make lengthy, specialist arguments, even if they were achievable, which I doubt. The sentence I have in mind might go something like this (with thanks to Sonam Kacchru): An education in the Sanskrit language has been part of the intellectual formation of a surprisingly large number of leading scholars in many different fields, including T. S. Eliot (poet), Hermann Weyl (Bourbaki mathematician), J. Robert Oppenheimer (physicist, Manhattan Project), Irving Babbitt (cultural critic, founder of New Humanism), Hermann G?nther Grassmann (mathematician), Ferdinand de Saussure (linguist, founder of structuralism), Leonard Bloomfield (linguist, founder of the Linguistic Society of America), Herbert Coleridge (founding editor of the Oxford English Dictionary), and many others. I think Patrick's point, about situating Sanskrit within South Asian Studies, is one of the most important we have heard so far. We are not only thinking of the Berlin authorities, incidentally. The argument for Sanskrit and classical Indian studies needs to be made at Cambridge and much more widely too. Dominik From acollins at GCI.NET Mon Jan 15 20:50:00 2007 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 11:50:00 -0900 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079314.23782.11178729662256785051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the main point that should be made is that classical Indian studies are of enormous relevance to contemporary Western (and Chinese and Japanese) culture, and Sanskrit is a fundamental tool for the pursuit of those studies. In addition to the areas already mentioned (poetry, literary studies, philosophy, linguistics, political science, etc.) I would cite psychology and psychotherapy. Several branches of psychotherapy are greatly indebted to Indian thinking (Buddhist, yogic): mindfulness is used by thousands of therapists and there are a large number of books and research studies on it. Biofeedback and relaxation strategies based on yoga (pranayama, etc.) are also widespread. Both Freud (the death instinct aka "nirvana principle") and Jung (the idea of the self as center of the personality) were deeply influenced by Indian thought, and this continued in Winnicott, Kohut, and Bion. Sudhir Kakar's work carries this on to the present day. Al Collins From hwtull at MSN.COM Mon Jan 15 17:34:47 2007 From: hwtull at MSN.COM (Herman Tull) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 12:34:47 -0500 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <09C684F7-6A50-4A9A-8352-599ED148D629@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227079299.23782.4835191652023950212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As Dominic points out these are two separate (and unequal) arguments. Professor Hart's argument is, of course, the primary one. However, the DWM ("dead white male") argument, though a minor point, is not entirely uncompelling. It shows that Sanskrit and Indological studies have long been an important part of the western academic tradition. That it was studied by DWMs is a reflection of the reality of Western universities prior to about 1970--largely populated by white (and often privileged) males (whether in physics, law, medicine, or Indology). This is no longer the case; indeed, the broadening of the social, sexual, and ethnic spectrum at western universities is all the more reason to continue these studies, bringing new perspectives to the field (not just the limited view of the the DWMs) as we move forward. I know it appears narcissistic to extol these DWM scholars (for, by extension, we implicitly extol ourselves), but Dominic started this thread by trying to get us to raise the profile of the field within the context of Western universities. I think the DWM argument, at least in a minor key, and along with the other more important argument about South Asian Studies in general, is one which will get at least a modest response. Great scholars and great programs, at least in the public's perception, are invariably linked. Universities unabashedly exploit these links in representing themselves, in what appears to be a never ending quest to raise their own profiles. Herman Tull ----Original Message Follows---- From: George Hart Reply-To: Indology To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:41:52 -0800 I find myself perplexed, to say the least, that apparently the most potent argument for Sanskrit is that it has influenced a few (dead) white men. Surely Kalidasa and Ilango did not care in the slightest what white people would think of their work. And certainly any dean approached about the importance of Sanskrit would be puzzled at these arguments. South Asia contains about 1.5 billion people. Their cultures and ways of thought have been deeply influenced by the classical tradition contained in Sanskrit (and Tamil). Are we then to argue that the importance of Sanskrit is that it influenced Oppenheimer or Eliot in some minor way? Is this not slightly narcissistic? George Hart From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Mon Jan 15 11:58:06 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 12:58:06 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit (was: Re: How to salvage Sanskrit in Berlin) In-Reply-To: <20070112104352.AIP76252@m4500-03.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227079288.23782.4803069664509031955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 12 Jan 2007 at 10:43, Sonam Kachru wrote: > Dear All, > > In Professor Wujastyk's list of those influenced by Sanskrit > studies--(1) Hermann Grassmann (1809-1877), famous > mathematician; ... Supposing one wanted to make Grassmann and the other celebrities listed part of an "argument for Sanskrit", it would have to be shown first that whatever they achieved in other fields was in some way "influenced by Sanskrit", resp. their knowledge of it, as is claimed here. How many years that would take I find it difficult to predict. Now, take Grassmann. He was a mathematician with an interest in language (etymology). But he turned to Sanskrit (the Rgveda exclusively) quite late in life: his "W?rterbuch zum Rig-Veda" was published in 1873, his translation (2 vols.) 1876 and 1877, the year he died. Not much time for influence left in his case! (mutatis mutandis in other cases) Of course, none of this is pathbreaking news, and it can be extended ad infinitum, as a look at Windisch's "Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie" (2 parts, 1917/1920; for Grassmann see p. 364f.) will show. But as pointed out earlier, I don't consider this a useful approach at all. Should Berlin authorities feel the need for counsel on indology, plenty of it is available to them, we may rest assured. The problem, as far as I understood it, is that they don't want any. So why not just ask them to seek it before they make decisions the desastrous consequences of which cannot be reversed? The only address I can provide is: berlinindology at gmail.com (There was another address, but I didn't keep it. Perhaps someone may be able to help out.) Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From chrishaskett at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 15 21:22:10 2007 From: chrishaskett at YAHOO.COM (Chris Haskett) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 13:22:10 -0800 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079324.23782.7482517024599650112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following some of the comments from earlier today, I ask you to consider a somewhat profane idea from a na?ve upstart--Shaw's treatment of the 'fuddy-duddies' points out a point that I don't think we've taken explicit note of yet: Sanskrit remains, for most people, something distant, exotic, or mystic. How many times has each of us had to explain to an otherwise well-educated acquaintance that it was never written onto dunes, for example? That is in part the problem we are confronted with in proving Sanskrit?s importance. However, that very fact should work in Sanskrit?s favor. To my eyes, at least, the presence of a trained Sanskritist on the faculty of any university greatly increases its prestige and credibility. When I tell people I am an Indologist, I get a glazed look. When I tell people I teach Sanskrit (and here in middle America at a state university we had 9 students, 3 undergrad, finish beginning Sanskrit last semester, this after initial enrollment reached the maximum 20) I get almost instant, and totally undeserved, awe and respect. Many may regard Sanskrit as a pedantic oddity of the university, something they do not understand the reasons for studying, but not in the same way that they cynically look at ?underwater basket-weaving? and the like. Most people may not know much about what Sanskrit is, but they do have the sense that it is quite profound and difficult?something with real gravitas. The point is, there is a degree of respect and veneration accorded to Sanskrit in the quotidian public eye that we may have lost sight of, and that should be somehow capitalized upon. There may be drawbacks to that approach, but I don?t think its something that should be overlooked. Chris Haskett PhD candidate, LCA, UW-Madison __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 15 15:07:11 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 15:07:11 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <45AB7A5D.28291.844851@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079290.23782.10762712953295522604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, gruenendahl wrote: > Supposing one wanted to make Grassmann and the other celebrities listed > part of an "argument for Sanskrit", it would have to be shown first that > whatever they achieved in other fields was in some way "influenced by > Sanskrit", resp. their knowledge of it, as is claimed here. How many > years that would take I find it difficult to predict. I disagree. Well, it would depend what one was trying to do. But I specifically used the word "rhetorical" in my original posting. Remember to whom we are talking. We are attempting to gather arguments that might appear in a press release or be part of a document submitted to university administrators. Such a document should not be more than one or two sides of A4 at the very most. It has to be hard-hitting and very clear. It would be pointless to present a document that tried to make lengthy, specialist arguments, even if they were achievable, which I doubt. The sentence I have in mind might go something like this (with thanks to Sonam Kacchru): An education in the Sanskrit language has been part of the intellectual formation of a surprisingly large number of leading scholars in many different fields, including T. S. Eliot (poet), Hermann Weyl (Bourbaki mathematician), J. Robert Oppenheimer (physicist, Manhattan Project), Irving Babbitt (cultural critic, founder of New Humanism), Hermann G?nther Grassmann (mathematician), Ferdinand de Saussure (linguist, founder of structuralism), Leonard Bloomfield (linguist, founder of the Linguistic Society of America), Herbert Coleridge (founding editor of the Oxford English Dictionary), and many others. I think Patrick's point, about situating Sanskrit within South Asian Studies, is one of the most important we have heard so far. We are not only thinking of the Berlin authorities, incidentally. The argument for Sanskrit and classical Indian studies needs to be made at Cambridge and much more widely too. Dominik From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Mon Jan 15 16:24:41 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 17:24:41 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <09C684F7-6A50-4A9A-8352-599ED148D629@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227079294.23782.12857723325222173818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I support George Hart's point of view here. The strongest argument for Sanskrit is the fact that the language is fundamental to the understanding of India's cultural and religious tradition, combined with the fact that India is an emerging global power with a vast economic, military and political potential. Understanding India is important, not simply for intellectual and philosophical reasons, although they are important enough, but because it is materially important for ourself. Trying to deal with societies which we don't understand can easily set us on the road to perdition, as we have seen clearly during the last few years. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > George Hart > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:42 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > I find myself perplexed, to say the least, that apparently > the most potent argument for Sanskrit is that it has > influenced a few (dead) white men. Surely Kalidasa and > Ilango did not care in the slightest what white people would > think of their work. And certainly any dean approached about > the importance of Sanskrit would be puzzled at these > arguments. South Asia contains about 1.5 billion people. > Their cultures and ways of thought have been deeply > influenced by the classical tradition contained in Sanskrit > (and Tamil). Are we then to argue that the importance of > Sanskrit is that it influenced Oppenheimer or Eliot in some > minor way? Is this not slightly narcissistic? George Hart > From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Mon Jan 15 17:00:27 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 18:00:27 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <002601c738c1$a8e65760$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079297.23782.12687312264213521066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the remarks I made below in support of George Hart's argument, I would like to add another argument which I believe is relevant to the scaling of Indological and South Asian studies at Western universities: the enormous dimensions of the subject! As a cultural and linguistic region, India is VAST. Sanskrit literature and culture is equally vast, and complex. This means that a proper understanding of India, its languages, society and culture requires a rich flora of academic positions and good number of Indological / South Asian institutes. The down-scaling we are now seeing will a few years from now probably be seen as a serious mistake. The problem is that so much modern university politics are driven by student number considerations, not the need for knowledge and competence in the absolute sense of the word. This means that we must also address the politicians, not simply the university deans who often have to act with both hands tied behind their backs. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Lars Martin Fosse > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 5:25 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > I support George Hart's point of view here. The strongest > argument for Sanskrit is the fact that the language is > fundamental to the understanding of India's cultural and > religious tradition, combined with the fact that India is an > emerging global power with a vast economic, military and > political potential. Understanding India is important, not > simply for intellectual and philosophical reasons, although > they are important enough, but because it is materially > important for ourself. Trying to deal with societies which we > don't understand can easily set us on the road to perdition, > as we have seen clearly during the last few years. > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 > 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no > http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf > Of George > > Hart > > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 4:42 PM > > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > > > I find myself perplexed, to say the least, that apparently the most > > potent argument for Sanskrit is that it has influenced a few (dead) > > white men. Surely Kalidasa and Ilango did not care in the > slightest > > what white people would think of their work. And certainly > any dean > > approached about the importance of Sanskrit would be > puzzled at these > > arguments. South Asia contains about 1.5 billion people. > > Their cultures and ways of thought have been deeply > influenced by the > > classical tradition contained in Sanskrit (and Tamil). Are > we then to > > argue that the importance of Sanskrit is that it influenced > > Oppenheimer or Eliot in some minor way? Is this not slightly > > narcissistic? George Hart > > From jneuss at ARCOR.DE Mon Jan 15 18:29:07 2007 From: jneuss at ARCOR.DE (JN) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 19:29:07 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <003101c738c6$a846a2b0$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079301.23782.7285053100450406377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> lars martin fosse wrote: (...) > The problem is that so much modern university politics are driven by > student number considerations, not the need for knowledge and competence > in the absolute sense of the word. (...) I am not really sure about the first part of this statement as our Berlin Institute has witnessed a steady and relatively steep increase in student numbers over the last 10 years, which in my view reflects a general increasing interest in south asia. Supposedly in order to deprive us of an argument concerning good "customer response", a few years ago, the authorities have restricted the enrolment for our discipline even without prior consultation of the head of our department (as far as I know). eversince the student numbers remain stagnant on the level fixed by the authorities. i suppose other indological departments have also witnessed an increase in student numbers? if so, that would possibly serve as an argument to show that the present scaling-down efforts are against a general public trend. greetings jn -- ________________________________________ Juergen Neuss, M.A. Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a D-14195 Berlin Germany From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Mon Jan 15 18:46:05 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 19:46:05 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079303.23782.3150220078653452507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J?rgen Neuss wrote: > i suppose other indological departments have also witnessed > an increase in student numbers? if so, that would possibly > serve as an argument to show that the present scaling-down > efforts are against a general public trend. We have to make a difference between classical Indology and modern South Asian studies. As far as Oslo is concerned, there has been an increase in students with an interest in modern studies, as far as I can see. The problem is Sanskrit as such. Sanskrit has always attracted some students, but never many. A good year would see 3-6 students, of whom perhaps 1-3 would take an examination. A bad year might see no students at all. In Oslo, at least, the number of students - or "study points" - matters. The problem for Sanskrit seems to be that it is badly integrated into modern studies. (I would be interested to know if others here have a different experience). In Oslo, the "modernists" don't seem to be much interested in Ancient India, whereas the "classicists" have also tended to take an interest in the modern stuff. (E.g.: my last student did Sanskrit and Pali very well and then also went to India to study some Hindi. On the other hand, an attempt to teach Hindi students at least some Sanskrit failed, I believe partly for bureaucratic reasons). This imbalance is unfortunate, because it creates the impression that ancient India may be dispensed with. We seem to need more integration without sacrificing the methods and approaches of classical studies. Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of JN > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:29 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > lars martin fosse wrote: > > (...) > > The problem is that so much modern university politics are > driven by > > student number considerations, not the need for knowledge and > > competence in the absolute sense of the word. > (...) > > I am not really sure about the first part of this statement > as our Berlin Institute has witnessed a steady and relatively > steep increase in student numbers over the last 10 years, > which in my view reflects a general increasing interest in > south asia. Supposedly in order to deprive us of an argument > concerning good "customer response", a few years ago, the > authorities have restricted the enrolment for our discipline > even without prior consultation of the head of our department > (as far as I know). > eversince the student numbers remain stagnant on the level > fixed by the authorities. > i suppose other indological departments have also witnessed > an increase in student numbers? if so, that would possibly > serve as an argument to show that the present scaling-down > efforts are against a general public trend. > > greetings > > jn > -- > ________________________________________ > Juergen Neuss, M.A. > > Freie Universitaet Berlin > Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte > Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a > D-14195 Berlin > Germany > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 15 20:25:51 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 20:25:51 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <003e01c738d5$69f127b0$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079308.23782.17215876564906592689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What you say, Lars, suggests to me that one has to distinguish, and win, the argument that a knowledge of classical India (with languages) is relevant (and important) for understanding modern India. This is an argument that has been made successfully in many universities, especially in America, where Sanskrit has been successfully supported in partnership with departments of South Asian Studies, Religious Studies, Sociology and Anthropology. As a classic statement of this view, one might take, e.g., Milton Singer's remark, "In and around Madras City, and especially in Mylapore, the author found India's Great Tradition of Sanskritic Hinduism still a pervasive force in the lives of ordinary people." (When a Great Tradition Modernizes, 1972, p.xiii). Incidentally, there are several interesting arguments made in Milton Singer (ed.), Introducing India in Liberal Education: Proceedings of a Conference Held at the University of Chicago, May 17, 18, 1957. University of Chicago, 1957. Some of these essays are obsolete, others could be dusted off and restated for contemporary times. It is interesting to see many of the most prominent scholars of India in the mid-20th century -- W. Norman Brown, Milton Singer, Robert Redfield, Bernard Cohn, Karl Potter, Ernest Bender, Walter Spink, Horace Poleman -- addressing the several of the issues we are addressing today, though from the point of view of creating a new department, not saving an existing one. Dominik On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > We have to make a difference between classical Indology and modern South > Asian studies. As far as Oslo is concerned, there has been an increase in > students with an interest in modern studies, as far as I can see. The > problem is Sanskrit as such. Sanskrit has always attracted some students, > but never many. A good year would see 3-6 students, of whom perhaps 1-3 > would take an examination. A bad year might see no students at all. In Oslo, > at least, the number of students - or "study points" - matters. The problem > for Sanskrit seems to be that it is badly integrated into modern studies. (I > would be interested to know if others here have a different experience). In > Oslo, the "modernists" don't seem to be much interested in Ancient India, > whereas the "classicists" have also tended to take an interest in the modern > stuff. (E.g.: my last student did Sanskrit and Pali very well and then also > went to India to study some Hindi. On the other hand, an attempt to teach > Hindi students at least some Sanskrit failed, I believe partly for > bureaucratic reasons). This imbalance is unfortunate, because it creates the > impression that ancient India may be dispensed with. We seem to need more > integration without sacrificing the methods and approaches of classical > studies. > > Lars Martin Fosse From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 15 20:55:05 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 20:55:05 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <09C684F7-6A50-4A9A-8352-599ED148D629@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227079317.23782.17159500814938696672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear George, I hope I haven't suggested that the "Oppenheimer Argument", if we may give it that nickname, is "the most potent argument for Sanskrit." Certainly not. I think I said, actually, that I thought Patrick's posting of 3 Jan, made the arguments most likely to be influential in today's climate. I still think the Oppenheimer argument has something to recommend it as a short piece of rhetoric, aimed at people outside India. One of the stereotypes that scholars outside India are up against is that of Sanskrit as a quintessentially abstruse and useless subject. One only has to remember Bernard Shaw's Pygmalion, where two complete old fuddy-duddies discover each other with delight, -- THE GENTLEMAN. I am myself a student of Indian dialects; and-- THE NOTE TAKER [eagerly] Are you? Do you know Colonel Pickering, the author of Spoken Sanscrit? THE GENTLEMAN. I am Colonel Pickering. Who are you? THE NOTE TAKER. Henry Higgins, author of Higgins's Universal Alphabet. PICKERING [with enthusiasm] I came from India to meet you. HIGGINS. I was going to India to meet you. -- Although Shaw himself was very interested in language, and might have read a book on Spoken Sancrit with interest, he certainly used this encounter to portray his characters as slightly dotty ivory-tower academics. So, making a list of very famous Dwems who have a bit of Sanskrit in their background may be a surprise, and a pertinent one, to many of those to whom we would make the argument for Sanskrit. I am assuming that the audience for the argument we are trying to make is at universities and in funding bodies outside India, where saying "Sanskrit and Tamil were important to C. V. Raman/P. C. Ray/S. Bose/K. C. Sen" would be met with incomprehension. It's all about who one is talking to, isn't it? -- An argument based on the size of India's population (the "1.5 billion" argument) has never cut any mustard in the past. Rather, it has invoked the whole Oxfam/poverty/starving children complex of ideas. However, nowadays that is changing. "1.5 billion" is beginning to be seen as "1.5 billion" consumers and producers. I'm not an economist, but what I see for myself in India does not support this argument. Never mind. Probably I'm wrong. And certainly the "Giant Economy" argument, as a variant of the "1.5 billion" argument, is convincing to many policy formers today. But it is only of use to us if it is strongly coupled with the argument that knowing India's classical past can help to understand the present. Best, Dominik On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, George Hart wrote: > I find myself perplexed, to say the least, that apparently the most > potent argument for Sanskrit is that it has influenced a few (dead) > white men. Surely Kalidasa and Ilango did not care in the slightest what > white people would think of their work. And certainly any dean > approached about the importance of Sanskrit would be puzzled at these > arguments. South Asia contains about 1.5 billion people. Their cultures > and ways of thought have been deeply influenced by the classical > tradition contained in Sanskrit (and Tamil). Are we then to argue that > the importance of Sanskrit is that it influenced Oppenheimer or Eliot in > some minor way? Is this not slightly narcissistic? George Hart From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 15 21:11:15 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 21:11:15 +0000 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit : a Real Problem and Directions for a Solution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079321.23782.1992879440063345505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 Jan 2007, Antonio Ferreira-Jardim wrote: [... many very pertinent points] > In summary, I would really favour moving away from the hackneyed and > often ineffective route of letter-writing to senior University > bureaucrats in favour of: > > 1) More heavily and enthusiastically promoting sanskrit to relevant groups, > 2) Forming financial and friendship bonds with relevant local communities, > 3) Making the argument for sanskrit at a university level (in > conjunction with local consuls, religious groups etc) based on market > principles such as the growing financial importance of India and the > centrality of sanskrit to her growing mercantile population. And what about advertising? Taking out space in appropriate publications or on local radio stations, and talking up the subject? Everyone else advertises, because of course it works. Dominik From jneuss at ARCOR.DE Mon Jan 15 20:11:34 2007 From: jneuss at ARCOR.DE (JN) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 21:11:34 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <003e01c738d5$69f127b0$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079306.23782.1835036716868866137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > We have to make a difference between classical Indology and modern South > Asian studies. As far as Oslo is concerned, there has been an increase in > students with an interest in modern studies, as far as I can see. The > problem is Sanskrit as such. Sanskrit has always attracted some students, > but never many. A good year would see 3-6 students, of whom perhaps 1-3 > would take an examination. A bad year might see no students at all. I agree, that it is necessary to make this difference. But for our Institute, which traditionally had and still retains a strong focus on Sanskrit the numbers are much better. I think the present beginners course for Sanskrit has about 30 or more students regularly attending. Given the fact, that this is practically unbearable for reasonable instruction, we even would need an additional Sanskrit teacher, which we can only dream of. The question how many of these students will take an examination oor even a degree is however another one. We have seen and still see many students giving up for a variety of reasons. Economic problems were certainly a factor of increasing importance during the last years. > In Oslo, at least, the number of students - or "study points" - matters. > The problem > for Sanskrit seems to be that it is badly integrated into modern > studies. I would be interested to know if others here have a different > experience). In Oslo, the "modernists" don't seem to be much interested > in Ancient India, > whereas the "classicists" have also tended to take an interest in the > modern stuff. We have witnessed something similar here in Berlin. While we as "classicists" would have been happy to be unite with the "modernist" department of the Humboldt University they did not like us to join them. One reason may have been that in the process a certain cut-down in posts was feared, but I also know, that one particular person wanted to avoid being constantly confronted with his own ignorance of Sanskrit. I find this pretty fatal, as I consider a certain amount of knowledge of Sanskrit and Sanskrit literature indispensable for the understanding of medieaval or modern India. (E.g.: my last student did Sanskrit and Pali very well and then > also went to India to study some Hindi. That's very clever if one has the capability for it and, of course, if one can economically afford to do so. I consider Hindi (or any other modern Indian language, depending on the field/region one is interested in) to be an indipensable for any field work. > On the other hand, an attempt to teach > Hindi students at least some Sanskrit failed, I believe partly for > bureaucratic reasons). bureaucratic reasons??? Anyway, Hindi students should be encouraged to learn (at least some) Sanskrit as it helps much, not only with regard to Hindi vocabulary. > This imbalance is unfortunate, because it creates the > impression that ancient India may be dispensed with. This impression can only grow in people ignorant of the facts. > We seem to need more > integration without sacrificing the methods and approaches of classical > studies. Yes, certainly. As elsewhere we need tobuilt networks. As I said, we would have been happy to unite with the "moddernist" department of the HU and the anthropological department of our own university to form an integrated department of South Asian Studies. That would have been really attractive for students and promising regarding profound and relevant research. greetings jn -- ________________________________________ J?rgen Neu?, M.A. Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a D-14195 Berlin Germany From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Mon Jan 15 20:31:47 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 21:31:47 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079310.23782.8499181377651663637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jn wrote: > > Sanskrit failed, I believe partly for bureaucratic reasons). > bureaucratic reasons??? If I understood the problem correctly, 1 semester of obligatory Sanskrit + 2 / 4 semesters of Hindi could not be fitted into the loan framework of the Statens Laanekasse, which gives loans to students. Courses have to be standardized, and not exceed a certain length. The Chinese department managed to get around this rule so that students can do basic Chinese in three years instead of one year (but I don't remember the details here). Norwegian students get a loan plus a stipend, but they are required to finish their courses within a previously determined timeframe, and the university/Laanekasse are very strict. No "eternal students" allowed. Standardized time applies. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Mon Jan 15 20:42:12 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 21:42:12 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079312.23782.11303239272868261197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujatyk wrote: > What you say, Lars, suggests to me that one has to > distinguish, and win, the argument that a knowledge of > classical India (with languages) is relevant (and important) > for understanding modern India. This is precisely my point, Dominik. Exactly how this is done, is another matter. We have to remember that our intended audience (in the end, politicians who decide university funding) has lost all traces of "Geist" (at least in my part of the world), if I may be cruel. I don't have much faith in the DWM argument (the average Scandinavian politician wouldn't know who they were anyway), a carefully reasoned argument based on the concept of "instrumental knowledge" seems more promising to me. My own attitude towards knowledge is primarily philosophical, not instrumental, but I know I won't go far with that. However, we are not the only ones with this problem - the university of Oslo practically closed down Italian because there were too few students. This shows how far the "market thinkers" are willing to go. The humanities and the social sciences in this country have become a meat-grinder for people who would otherwise end up in the unemployment statistics. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of > Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:26 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Making the Argument for Sanskrit > > What you say, Lars, suggests to me that one has to > distinguish, and win, the argument that a knowledge of > classical India (with languages) is relevant (and important) > for understanding modern India. > > This is an argument that has been made successfully in many > universities, especially in America, where Sanskrit has been > successfully supported in partnership with departments of > South Asian Studies, Religious Studies, Sociology and Anthropology. > > As a classic statement of this view, one might take, e.g., > Milton Singer's remark, "In and around Madras City, and > especially in Mylapore, the author found India's Great > Tradition of Sanskritic Hinduism still a pervasive force in > the lives of ordinary people." (When a Great Tradition > Modernizes, 1972, p.xiii). > > Incidentally, there are several interesting arguments made in > > Milton Singer (ed.), Introducing India in Liberal > Education: Proceedings > of a Conference Held at the University of Chicago, May 17, 18, 1957. > University of Chicago, 1957. > > Some of these essays are obsolete, others could be dusted off > and restated for contemporary times. It is interesting to > see many of the most prominent scholars of India in the > mid-20th century -- W. Norman Brown, Milton Singer, Robert > Redfield, Bernard Cohn, Karl Potter, Ernest Bender, Walter > Spink, Horace Poleman -- addressing the several of the issues > we are addressing today, though from the point of view of > creating a new department, not saving an existing one. > > Dominik > > > > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > We have to make a difference between classical Indology and modern > > South Asian studies. As far as Oslo is concerned, there has been an > > increase in students with an interest in modern studies, as > far as I > > can see. The problem is Sanskrit as such. Sanskrit has always > > attracted some students, but never many. A good year would see 3-6 > > students, of whom perhaps 1-3 would take an examination. A bad year > > might see no students at all. In Oslo, at least, the number of > > students - or "study points" - matters. The problem for > Sanskrit seems > > to be that it is badly integrated into modern studies. (I would be > > interested to know if others here have a different experience). In > > Oslo, the "modernists" don't seem to be much interested in Ancient > > India, whereas the "classicists" have also tended to take > an interest > > in the modern stuff. (E.g.: my last student did Sanskrit > and Pali very > > well and then also went to India to study some Hindi. On the other > > hand, an attempt to teach Hindi students at least some Sanskrit > > failed, I believe partly for bureaucratic reasons). This > imbalance is > > unfortunate, because it creates the impression that ancient > India may > > be dispensed with. We seem to need more integration without > sacrificing the methods and approaches of classical studies. > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jan 15 21:08:05 2007 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 07 22:08:05 +0100 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079319.23782.6601565679122038897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JN schrieb: > I agree, that it is necessary to make this difference. But for our > Institute, which traditionally had and still retains a strong focus on > Sanskrit the numbers are much better. I think the present beginners > course for Sanskrit has about 30 or more students regularly attending. > Given the fact, that this is practically unbearable for reasonable > instruction, we even would need an additional Sanskrit teacher, which > we can only dream of. The question how many of these students will > take an examination oor even a degree is however another one. We have > seen and still see many students giving up for a variety of reasons. > Economic problems were certainly a factor of increasing importance > during the last years. > > A similar observation holds good for the Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies in Vienna. The number of students who enrolled in beginner's Sanskrit increased to such an extent that this winter term, two parallel courses were needed and could fortunately also be offered. (The maximum number of students for a course was set at 30.) As J?rgen Neuss rightly points out, it is of course another question how many students will successfully complete the course, but the large numbers of initial enrollment show that interest in Sanskrit is far from non-existent. One might actually be led to believe that classical Tibetan would draw more students, given the great popularity of all things Tibetan in society at large, but this is currently not the case, at least not in Vienna. Best regards, Birgit Kellner From jpb at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Jan 16 15:17:32 2007 From: jpb at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Joel Brereton) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 07 09:17:32 -0600 Subject: Fourth International Vedic Workshop Message-ID: <161227079328.23782.7447736568654532324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Our apologies to those who have already received notice or who have seen this post on another list, but we want to be sure that everyone is aware of the Fourth International Vedic Workshop, which will take place in Austin, Texas, at The University of Texas, from Thursday, May 24 through Sunday, May 27, 2007. This conference will bring together scholars from different countries across the world and provide a forum for them to share their research and to explore new approaches to the study of the Vedas. In accordance with the theme of the conference, "The Vedas in Culture and History," we invite papers that explore the relation of Vedic texts to the social and political history of the Vedic period, to religious movements of early India, to various facets of material and intellectual culture in India, and to the later traditions of India. That is to say, we invite papers not only on the Veda itself but also on the Vedic tradition and the relation between the Veda and other aspects of Indic culture. We have now established a website for the conference, which you can access at http://www.utexas.edu/cola/insts/southasia/conferences/vedic/. The website provides complete information concerning the workshop and its practicalities, such as submission of abstracts, registration, and the venue for the conference. In brief, early registration will be available through February 28, 2007 and regular registration through May 23. Abstracts submitted by February 1 will receive notification concerning acceptance before the early registration deadline. The final date for submission of abstracts is March 1. Registration for the workshop is now available online through a secure link on the website. If you have any difficulty accessing the website or if this method of online registration is not possible for you, please contact Joel Brereton (jpb at uts.cc.utexas.edu). We can arrange to send registration materials and other information by regular mail. We are planning to schedule sessions of the workshop from Thursday morning through Sunday evening, so we hope that participants will be able arrive on Wednesday, May 23, and depart on Monday, May 28. For additional information, you are welcome to contact either Patrick Olivelle (jpo at uts.cc.utexas.edu) or Joel Brereton at the University of Texas. Yours, Patrick Olivelle and Joel Brereton From kachru at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Jan 16 15:42:10 2007 From: kachru at UCHICAGO.EDU (Sonam Kachru) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 07 09:42:10 -0600 Subject: Making the Argument for Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227079331.23782.15311108801858003703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, My little e-mail suggesting that we consider connections between members in Professor Wujastyk?s list of Sanskrit- rich intellectuals was insufficiently contextualized. Mea Culpa. I had no intention of arguing for Sanskrit in that message. At most, the exercise was one of merely widening the scope of a premise in a possible argument for Sanskrit, and as used thereby by Prof. Wujastyk, I think suitable and necessary. That list, however, does not offer a sufficient hetu in the argument for Sanskrit. It would have to relate to an argument as something of an exemplum for the following point: the study of Sanskrit can diversely enrich us. As it has in the case of so-and-so, etc. By way of using Western figures as aapta-s in the exemplum, the argument achieves some measure of what Prof. Hart called ?narcissism?. Such an argument trades on a transitive relation based on Western aapta-s: if some person x is considered authoritative for knowing something about what enriches us, (or considered suitably ?enriching? in his or her own right), and person x considered subject y to be enriching, then we ought to consider y to be similarly enriching. Claim that subject y is only possible through education in Sanskrit, and this, presumably, yields an argument for not just Sanskrit, but also the continuing availability of Sanskrit and its riches. It is an argument, but not the only one. I would not wish to suggest that some such Western x be considered the exemplary aapta for what counts as enriching. We can find other exempla I would wish for exempla for the following points: that Sanskrit, all that is expressed therein and through it, has enriched the lives the peoples of India; that Sanskrit continues to so enrich the peoples of India; that we, in a non-parochial, non-historical sense, can be enriched by it as well. I would wish to argue for something stronger, something harder to exemplify in an argument: that in the absence of the means to make available that which is expressed in Sanskrit, we, in a non-historical and non- parochial sense of ?we,? are intolerably impoverished. I use this unspecified sense of ?enrichment? because I believe that an argument for Sanskrit rides parasitically on an argument for the Humanities, in its broadest sense. Two premises are required: (a) the value of the humanities, (b) the value of a non-parochial humanities. I think both (a) and (b). I have no knock-down argument to this effect, but I believe a Humanities concentred in any one insular heritage to be a Humanities unworthy of the highest ideals of a contemporary liberal democracy. I also believe that hobbling access to the deeply humane possibilities for enrichment (historical and current) afforded through such vehicles as Sanskrit is a public disservice. On this level, I agree with Professor Hart in lamenting an argument that would exclusively go through the Western tradition. (I do not know if this can be softened by suggesting that the point of appealing to such instances as early Eliot and Babbitt is to gesture to cases in which a distinctly non-parochial form of the ?Humanities? beckoned not only as a possibility, but as necessary; one still feels the one-sidedness.) perhaps the appeal to western aapta-s may function solely to shame someone antecedently convinced of the worth of the Humanities, but who has an impoverished conception of their possibilities. Let me say in closing, adapting a point from a fellow Kashmiri, Mr. Jayanta Bhatta, that I do indeed believe that ?shabdaiva lokasya prakaashah,? if ?loka? is here understood as something like lebens-welt, ?shabdah? as language and all that it enables. I am as convinced of being dimmer in the event of Bhartrhari?s absence, as I am in the event that of not being able to appreciate such experiments as Prof. Aklujkar?s translation of Carroll?s verse into Sanskrit. That any one might promote by their actions the possibility that such riches?brahmastamba?be eclipsed in the future saddens me; but this is no argument. But it is the virtue and weakness of a democracy that conviction, when supported in numbers, is sufficient to change the course of beaurocratic decisions. Let us then sign as many petitions as it takes. From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 17 13:44:37 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 07 14:44:37 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <0310FB10-0658-44D7-B645-C71896339A36@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <161227079333.23782.11400456502824590141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies to all members of the list who prefer not to here of this topic any more! Only today, when I tried to reduce the backlog of "deleted messages" filtered out by our mailer, I came across Jan Houben's reply dated Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:03:54 (along with Paul Kiparsky's copy Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:07:04) and various other postings to this list before and after. (The problem may persist.) Anyway, I'd like to give an assessment of the debate so far, if I'm allowed that privilege. It will be strictly to the point and as short as possible, but it may not be ready before Monday. Besides, I'd like to renew my call upon all list members for any evidence they have of a possible connection between indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" (offlist, if preferred). Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jan 18 18:08:27 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 07 18:08:27 +0000 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079336.23782.12517567866439993619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter, and anyone interested, There's a good description of the Ahnenerbe and the surrounding historical events and people in the book "The Occult Establishment" by James Webb (pp.321-4). His companion book "The Occult Underground" is also excellent as a survey of various secret cults and individual "illuminati" mainly in the 19 and 20 centuries. Webb writes well, and his research is thorough, including original use of archival sources, diaries and letters in several languages. His work is refreshing in that it gives a good account not only of British and American movements and characters, but also of German, Polish and Russian participants. Webb offers extracts from the diary of Wolfram Sievers as examples of the day-to-day events of the Ahnenerbe (p.323). Interestingly, "...at 4:00 [on 6 Jan 1944, Sievers] visited Professor Wuest at the university [of Munich] to talk about the Ahnenerbe publishing firm and their Sven Hedin Institute for Asian Exploration." Later in "Establishment", Webb mentions Eliade, H. Zimmer, J. W. Hauer and others of the extended circle of Jung and the Eranos Conferences from about 1930. Amongst them, Gustav Heyer and Baron Schrenk-Notzing were both active figures in Munich occult circles (p.395), though a link with the Ahnenerbe -- whose archives were destroyed -- is not established. There can be little doubt that Hauer, however, was convinced by NS anti-semitic, blood-and-soil, and other creeds, and considered Hitler "the genius of our people." I mention Webb's books because it's my experience that they aren't as well known as they deserve to be. Best, Dominik On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Am 09.01.2007 um 23:35 schrieb George Thompson: > >> The example that I offer comes not from an Indologist, let me say, but >> nevertheless from a well-known classicist and historian, Franz Altheim. >> >> When I was a graduate student at the Univ. of California at Berkeley, I >> frequently visited the library's room where little-used or duplicate books >> were withdrawn from circulation and offered for sale. That is how I >> acquired many valuable books and papers, like H. Oldenberg's Rgveda Noten, >> vol 1, as well as his "Zur Geschichte der altindischen Prosa." I also >> acquired Altheim's *Die Krise der Alten Welt im 3. Jahrhundert n. zw. und >> ihre Ursachen: Bildteil von E. Trautmann-Nehring: Dritter Band: Goetter und >> Kaiser* 1943. >> >> This book was a curiosity which sat on the library's sale shelf for many >> months. It seems that no one was willing to touch it. As a result, every >> few months its price was cut in half, so that I eventually bought it for >> one dollar. >> >> The book was published by "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung Verlag, Berlin-Dahlem, 1943" >> -- a rather ominous title, given the date of publication. But what makes >> this book good evidence of complicity or consent is that it was preceded by >> the following Gleitwort: >> >> "Ein Volk lebt so lange gluecklich in Gegenwart und Zukunft, als es sich >> seiner Vergangenheit und der Groesse seiner Ahnen bewisst ist." Signed by >> Heinrich Himmler, Reichsfuehrer. >> >> Was it common that books published in Germany during the war years would >> have had a Gleitwort from the likes of Himmler? Is there any evidence that >> any Indological books published in Germany from that period may have had >> such a stamp of approval? > > I would say, that the "Ahnenerbe-Stiftung Verlag" as the publication unit of > the "Ahnenerbe" was special in several regards. The "Ahnenerbe" was > originally an association funded by the SS (in the mid-thirties), later it > became directly a department of or in the SS. Its leading figure was Himmler > himself, the chief executive and scholarly directors belonged also to the SS. > At the onset, it was a playground for certain un-academic theories that > Himmler wanted to support in some way (mainly the prehistorical symbol > theories of Herman Wirth and the so-called "Welt-Eis-Lehre", a cosmogonical > theory by the Austrian Hanns H?rbiger). Later in the thirties, the first > director Herman Wirth was replaced by the indologist Walther W?st; and under > W?st the organisation took a more "scholarly" turn. One objective was to gain > a foothold in the universities or, generally, in the academic world (mainly > directed against similar activities of Alfred Rosenberg). This involved > funding of research projects. And in this context one has to see the > publication of Franz Altheim. It is the output of a project for which he got > financial support from the Ahnenerbe (or the SS if you like). Detailed > background information on Altheim's involvement can be found in a monograph > by V. Loseman (based not only on published but also on unpublished archive > materials): > > Losemann, Volker: Nationalsozialismus und Antike : Studien zur Entwicklung > des Faches Alte Geschichte 1933 - 1945 / Volker Losemann. - Hamburg : > Hoffmann und Campe, 1977. - 283 p. - (Historische Perspektiven ; 7). - ISBN > 3-455-09219-5 > Short version of the original Ph.D. thesis: Losemann, Volker: Antike und > Nationalsozialismus, Marburg, Univ., Diss., 1975 > > So far I know, Walther W?st was the only indologist who was a member the > Ahnenerbe. Its main focus was at first Germanic folklore (under the > perspective of H. Wirth's symbol theories), later under W?st cultural or > university politics (infiltration into the university system, taking over of > scholarly journals etc.). After the breakout of the war the Ahnenerbe became > even more sinister; a natural sciences department was build under the label > "kriegswissenschaftliche Zweckforschung". Medical doctors who belonged to > this department were involved in experiments with human beings (e.g. S. > Rascher in Dachau). On this see the recent publication of Heather Pringle: > The master plan : Himmler's scholars and the Holocaust / Heather Pringle. - > London : Fourth Estate, 2006. - xii, 463 p. : ill. - ISBN 0-00-714812-7 > > Gerd Simon, a scholar in German studies from T?bingen, has announced for 2007 > or 2008 a monograph on Walther W?st and his role. According to the > announcement the title will be: > > Mit Akribie und Bluff ins Zentrum der Macht : Walther W?st und das > 'Etymologische und vergleichende W?rterbuch des Altindoarischen' / Gerd Simon > unter Mitwirkung von Dieter M. Walther Back. ISBN 3-932613-05-8 > (Due in 2008, according to the list of publications: > http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/gerd.simon/Werbung.pdf) > > All the best > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Peter Wyzlic > pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Jan 19 13:37:51 2007 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 07:37:51 -0600 Subject: Silk In-Reply-To: <45B0A21B.20325.9DA637@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079346.23782.9673207743257902353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend of mine has inquired about a book dealing with the history of silk in India. Can any one help? Thanks. Patrick From rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri Jan 19 14:04:40 2007 From: rrocher at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Rosane Rocher) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 09:04:40 -0500 Subject: Silk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079349.23782.3890315060924394554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are several publications of the early 1790's by James Anderson, physician-general at Madras, about the cultivation of silk on the Coromandel coast. See the BL integrated online catalogue. Rosane At 08:37 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote: >A friend of mine has inquired about a book dealing with the history >of silk in India. Can any one help? Thanks. > >Patrick From joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU Fri Jan 19 14:45:28 2007 From: joseph.walser at TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 09:45:28 -0500 Subject: Silk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079351.23782.15614549959776618954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Even though it also deals with China, Syria and Rome, I recall that Xinru Liu's book, "Silk and Religion:An Exploration of Material Life and the Thought of People, AD 600-1200," had some interesting things to say about silk trade in India. In any case, she provides the "big picture" against which silk trade in India can be understood. Best, Joseph Walser Tufts University Patrick Olivelle wrote: > A friend of mine has inquired about a book dealing with the history of > silk in India. Can any one help? Thanks. > > Patrick From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jan 19 14:51:56 2007 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 09:51:56 -0500 Subject: Silk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079354.23782.5401444708222542794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick, below are some monographic references, and a short list of some journal articles (culled from the online Bibliography of Asian Studies) that might be useful. David Magier --On Friday, January 19, 2007 7:37 AM -0600 Patrick Olivelle wrote: > A friend of mine has inquired about a book dealing with the history of > silk in India. Can any one help? Thanks. > > Patrick MONOGRAPHS: Silk and empire / Author: King, Brenda M. Manchester ; New York : Manchester University Press, 2005 Life and times of Cantoo Baboo (Krisna Kanta Nandy), the banian of Warren Hastings: period covered, 1742-1804 / Author: Nandi, Somendracandra Bombay : Allied, 1978-1981 The changing fortunes of the Bengal silk industry, 1757-1833 / Author: Bag, Sailendra Kumar Howrah : S.K. Bag, 1989 Reviving a rural industry : silk producers and officials in India and Bangladesh, 1880s to 1980s / Author: Schendel, Willem van. Dhaka : University Press Ltd., 1995 The story of Kassimbazar silk merchants and commerce in the eighteenth century / Author: Mukherjee, Rila. Calcutta : Centre for Studies in Social Sciences, 1988 Merchants and companies in Bengal : Kasimbazar and Jugdia in the eighteenth century / Author: Mukherjee, Rila New Delhi : Pragati Publications, 2006 ----------- ARTICLES: 1. "The role of pykars in the silk industry of Bengal (c. 1765-1830)" Author: Bhadra, Gautam Journal: Studies in History (New Delhi) Vol: 3, no.2 (Jul-Dec, 1987) Page(s): 155-185 2. "The role of Pykars in the silk industry of Bengal (c.1765-1830)" - continued? Author: Bhadra, Gautam Journal: Studies in History (New Delhi) Vol: 4, nos.1-2 (Jan-Dec, 1988) Page(s): 1-35 3. "Silk filature and silk production: technological development in the early colonial context 1768-1833" Author: Bhadra, Gautam In: Kumar, Deepak, ed. Science and empire: essays in Indian context (1700-1947). Delhi: Anamika Prakashan, 1991. 205p. Page(s): 59-86 4. "The Tasar silk industry and its decline in Bengal and south Bihar: 1872-1921" Author: Chatterjee, Ruma Journal: Indian Historical Review (New Delhi) Vol: 17, nos.1-2 (Jul-Jan, 1990-1991) Page(s): 174-192 5. "Birbhum silk industry: a study of its growth to decline" Author: Gupta, Ranjan Kumar Journal: Indian Economic and Social History Review (Delhi) Vol: 17, no.2 (Apr-Jun, 1980) Page(s): 211-226 6. "Inter-Asian competition in the world silk market: 1859-1929 [India, China and Japan]" Author: Kaneko, Shinsuke In: Latham, A.J.H.; Kawakatsu, Heita, eds. Intra-Asian trade and the world market. London; New York: Routledge, 2006. xxi, 242p. (Routledge studies in the modern history of Asia) Page(s): 75-91 7. "The silk trade of Krisnakanta Nandy 1772-1780" Author: Nandy, Somendra Chandra Journal: Bengal Past and Present (Calcutta) Vol: 95, pt.2 (Jul-Dec, 1976) Page(s): 292-307 8. "The silk industry in Bengal during colonial rule: the 'de-industrialisation' thesis revisited" Author: Ray, Indrajit Journal: Indian Economic and Social History Review (Delhi) Vol: 42, no.3 (Jul-Sep, 2005) Page(s): 339-375 9. "Indian silk fabrics in the seventeenth century" Author: Sangar, S.P. Journal: Punjab History Conference: Proceedings (Patiala) Vol: 9th (1975) Page(s): 50-63 10. "The silk-weavers of Mandsaur in a sociological perspective" Author: Shah, K.K. Journal: Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bombay (Bombay) Vol: 67-68 (1992-1993) Page(s): 219-226 11. "Silk in northeastern and eastern India: the indigenous tradition" Author: Varadarajan, Lotika Journal: Modern Asian Studies (London) Vol: 22, pt.3 (Jul 1988) Page(s): 561-570 12. "Silk culture in Western India: the 'mutti experiment' (1830-47)" Author: Zanier, Claudio Journal: Indian Economic and Social History Review (Delhi) Vol: 21, no.4 (Oct-Dec 1984) Page(s): 463-497 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jan 19 15:24:08 2007 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 10:24:08 -0500 Subject: Silk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079356.23782.1330212648438326552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Irene Good (Harvard) has extensively researched this: different moth than the Chinese one, different feeding (Himalayan) plant, cocoons (kauzeya!) cut and left by moth before "harvesting', thus no boiling of live moths (how fitting!), etc etc. By the way, India silk (kauzeya = kau?eya ) is clearly distinguished from Chinese one (ciina-paTTa = c?napa??a) See Mbh, Arthashastra etc. I can provide Iren'e email if you write me privately. Cheers, Michael On Jan 19, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Patrick Olivelle wrote: > A friend of mine has inquired about a book dealing with the history of > silk in India. Can any one help? Thanks. > > Patrick > > Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 direct line: 496 2990 < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 19 09:26:29 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 10:26:29 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079339.23782.4981792612157891783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 18 Jan 2007 at 18:08, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > There's a good description of the Ahnenerbe and the surrounding historical > events and people in the book "The Occult Establishment" by James Webb > (pp.321-4). ... > > Webb offers extracts from the diary of Wolfram Sievers as examples of the > day-to-day events of the Ahnenerbe (p.323). Interestingly, "...at 4:00 > [on 6 Jan 1944, Sievers] visited Professor Wuest at the university [of > Munich] to talk about the Ahnenerbe publishing firm and their Sven Hedin > Institute for Asian Exploration." [Webb's book is not within my reach.] Sievers and W?st were among the highest-ranking officers of the Ahnenerbe (after Heinrich Himmler), and without knowing the details of their meeting in Munich, I would assume that Sievers consulted W?st in this capacity, not as an indologist. As far as I know, there were not Indologists in the "Hedin-Institut f?r Innerasien und Expeditionen" (Munich), founded as late as 16.1.1943 and directed by Ernst Sch?fer. It operated largely independently, but with organizational ties to the Ahnenerbe, Munich University and the ministry in charge. (Helmut Hoffmann joined as a Tibetologist; for details see Michael H. Kater, Das Ahnenerbe, 2001:213 and passim). More to the point, I'm not aware that the "ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" occupied the Hedin-Institut in any way, and having been founded that late, what influence could it have had on that ideology? > There can be little doubt that Hauer, however, was convinced by NS > anti-semitic, blood-and-soil, and other creeds, and considered Hitler "the > genius of our people." As far as I remember, evidence of Hauer's anti-semitic conviction is indirect (letters etc.), and not documented in his publications. But I would have to look that up. Anyway, I'm not aware that he propagated the "ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", but would have to check that, too. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 19 09:49:00 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 10:49:00 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079342.23782.10801481670164212715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 18 Jan 2007 at 18:08, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > There can be little doubt that Hauer, however, was convinced by NS > anti-semitic, blood-and-soil, and other creeds, and considered Hitler "the > genius of our people." A short addendum on Hauer: In 1940, he demanded a fundamental reorientation of all fields of learning (including natural science) according to the principals of "race science" (with reference to Galton, Gobineau, Clau? and H.F.K. G?nther), but it never came about, not even in his primary field of interest, religious studies. W?st voiced similar demands for indology (see my article), but also to no avail. On Hauer see, e.g., Horst Junginger: Von der philologischen zur v?lkischen Religionswissenschaft ... 1999 (with whom I do not agree on all points, as will be explained in my book). RG ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Jan 19 11:44:31 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 07 12:44:31 +0100 Subject: A question concerning the history of Samkhya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079344.23782.12453141493975825443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the light of Jan Houben's posting dated Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:03:54, which came to my belated attention on 17.1.2007, I see fit to get some things out of the way before I reply to the issue itself on Monday (weather permitting). Jan Houben strongly disapproves of the parody (or call it hoax ...) that started this particular thread. I see parody as a legitimate means of expression as long as it is clearly distinguished from serious business, and I gather from various examples in the archives of this list that at least some members see this in a similar way (see, e.g., #003826, 95/11/23). Whether parody is considered appropriate or otherwise depends very much on the position one sees oneself in. Anyway, parody has the potential to bring out aspects that cannot be expressed by other means. As for the case in hand, my hoax projects an assumed aspect of the history of Samkhya to an entirely different field to highlight the absurdity of a particular variety of contemporary discourse. (The serious business will follow on Monday; I didn't bring it up earlier because I was still waiting for Jan Houben's reply - which didn't reach me because it had filtered out by our mailing system.) What is not considered a legitimate means of expression, according to the rules of this list (www.indology.info/email/email-const.shtml), are "personal attacks of an ad- hominem nature". Whether some of Jan Houben's remarks qualify for this category "shall be a matter for the List committee", of which Jan Houben is a member (see www.indology.info/email/email-comm.shtml). I, for one, tend to take personal remarks lightly; whoever catches at this straw usually has little else to bring forward in support of his views. Should some members consider me unqualified for further discussion because of my use of parody, I'm prepared to live with that. Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ Sat Jan 20 07:23:08 2007 From: r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ (Richard Mahoney) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 07 20:23:08 +1300 Subject: PETITION> [Fwd: Researcher Support for Open Access to Research] Message-ID: <161227079358.23782.15313738236868252475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Apologies for cross-posting] Dear Colleagues, Some may like to express an opinion on this issue. Best regards, Richard Mahoney -----Forwarded Message----- From: Stevan Harnad To: dspace-general at mit.edu Subject: [Dspace-general] Researcher Support for Open Access to Research Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 05:46:34 +0000 Dear Colleagues, The European Commission, the European Research Advisory Board and the European Research Councils have recently each recommended adopting the policy of providing Open Access to research results: http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/science-society/pdf/scientific-publication-study_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/research/eurab/pdf/eurab_scipub_report_recomm_dec06_en.pdf http://erc.europa.eu/pdf/open-access.pdf (Very similar recommendations are also being made by governmental research organisations in the United States, Canada, Australia, and Asia.) There are non-research interests strongly lobbying against these recommendations, so a display of support by the research community is critically important. A consortium of European organisations working in the scholarly communication arena is now sponsoring a petition to the European Commission to demonstrate support for these recommendations on the part of the European and worldwide research community. Signatures may be added by individual researchers or universities and research institutions. I would strongly urge you to register your support. To sign the petition, please go to: http://www.ec-petition.eu/ The sponsoring organisations are JISC (Joint Information Systems Committee, UK), SURF (Netherlands), SPARC Europe, DFG (Deutsches Forschungsgemeinschaft, Germany), DEFF (Danmarks Elektroniske Fag- og Forskningsbibliotek, Denmark). Many thanks and best wishes, Stevan Harnad Chaire de recherche du Canada Professor of Cognitive Science Ctr. de neuroscience de la cognition Dpt. Electronics & Computer Science Universit? du Qu?bec ? Montr?al University of Southampton Montr?al, Qu?bec Highfield, Southampton Canada H3C 3P8 SO17 1BJ United Kingdom http://www.crsc.uqam.ca/ http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/ -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): +64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: +64 27 482 9986 OXFORD, NZ | email: r.mahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org ----------------------------------------------------------- Philologica: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/philologica/ Repositorium: http://indica-et-buddhica.org/repositorium/ From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 21 13:03:04 2007 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 07 05:03:04 -0800 Subject: Prof. em. Mme Caillat deceased on 15 January 2007 Message-ID: <161227079361.23782.7765719223913050176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded to the list: Mrs Colette Caillat, member of the Institute, died on January 15, 2007, the day of her eighty-sixth birthday. We will remember her as a demanding and precise scholar; as an excellent Professor; as an efficient and critical dissertation guide, entirely devoted to her students; as founder and director of a research team associated with the CNRS with remarkable results; and as the Director of the Institute of Indian Civilization who, during a very difficult time, succeeded in maintaining and developing the institution. Paris, January 19 2007, G Fussman --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jan 22 15:56:48 2007 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 07 09:56:48 -0600 Subject: palm leaf manuscript: script & identification? Message-ID: <161227079368.23782.105431961703927565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear David, It looks to me like Utkal script, from Orissa, but I don't have the reference materials with me to verify this just now. It someone who knows Utkal can be located, that might prove helpful. best, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies The University of Chicago Divinity School Directeur d'?tudes Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 22 15:42:30 2007 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 07 10:42:30 -0500 Subject: palm leaf manuscript: script & identification? Message-ID: <161227079363.23782.15479657139154209753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, a colleague from NY is seeking assistance in identifying a 215-page palm leaf manuscript. He is unsure of the language, the script, the age and the text of the mss, and I would like to provide any possible pointers. An image of one page of the manuscript is available online at: One colleague guessed it was a South Indian script, but another discounted that theory and wondered if it was some Bengali or Oriya script. I also wonder if it could be Southeast Asian. Advice anyone? Many thanks, David Magier South/Southeast Asia Librarian Columbia University Libraries From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 22 15:48:11 2007 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhatt) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 07 10:48:11 -0500 Subject: palm leaf manuscript: script & identification? In-Reply-To: <1AD4702F433FFDF4924C2CB6@dyn-iab-165-29.dyn.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227079366.23782.5741473806178491927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David, It is in Oriya. I cannot tell from the image how old it is. Bindu --On Monday, January 22, 2007 10:33 AM -0500 David Magier wrote: > Dear colleagues, > a colleague from NY is seeking assistance in identifying a 215-page palm > leaf manuscript. He is unsure of the language, the script, the age and > the text of the mss, and I would like to provide any possible pointers. > An image of one page of the manuscript is attached. One colleague guessed > it was a South Indian script, but another discounted that theory and > wondered if it was some Bengali or Oriya script. I also wonder if it > could be Southeast Asian. Advice anyone? > > Many thanks, > > David Magier > South/Southeast Asia Librarian > Columbia University Libraries From jneuss at ARCOR.DE Mon Jan 22 15:58:01 2007 From: jneuss at ARCOR.DE (JN) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 07 16:58:01 +0100 Subject: palm leaf manuscript: script & identification? In-Reply-To: <3EFE7686632DC4161683A31D@dyn-iab-165-29.dyn.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227079370.23782.3070336290422989505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hello david, the script is oriya and the script looks quite modern as does the leaf. the identification of the mss would require to look at more leaves, especially reading the colophones (if there are any). greetings jn -- ________________________________________ J?rgen Neu?, M.A. Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a D-14195 Berlin Berlin From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Mon Jan 22 16:42:53 2007 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 07 17:42:53 +0100 Subject: Professor Colette Caillat [1921-2007] Message-ID: <161227079372.23782.13419533821776644822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ute Huesken" To: Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 5:16 PM Subject: [Fwd: A sad news] Liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen, gerade erreicht mich die traurige Nachricht, dass Frau Professor Collette Caillat am letzten Montag in Paris verstorben ist. UH -------- Original-Nachricht -------- Betreff: A sad news Datum: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:57:49 +0100 Von: Nalini Balbir Dear All, It is my painful duty to inform you that Prof. Dr. Mrs *Colette CAILLAT* passed away on Monday 15 January 2007 in Paris, after an illness against which she tried to fight with great courage and dignity during six months. Mme Caillat (born 1921) started with classical studies in Latin and Greek, being particularly interested by grammatical and linguistic aspects. She was then almost naturally led to the study of Sanskrit, which she studied with Prof. Louis Renou (1896-1966), and Prof. Jules Bloch (1880-1953) when he replaced Renou who was in India. Although the main subject was Sanskrit, the tastes and special interests of Jules Bloch led him to entertain the students about Pali, Prakrit, Apabhramsha, modern Indo-Aryan languages, and about so many details of Indian life (the presence of Indian students in the class encouraged him to do so). As was expected from those who passed the prestigious competitive examination known in France as "Agr?gation", Mme Caillat was teaching at the same time in various secondary schools, until she could find a post at the National Centre of Scientific Research. She was then free to devote full time to Indian studies, starting with a M?moire on nominal derivation in Middle Indian which led her to read Jain texts. Since nobody in France was proficient in these texts, Renou addressed her to Prof. Walther Schubring (1881-1969) in Hamburg. This was a decisive meeting for the subsequent years: Schubring led her firmly on the path of Jain studies and encouraged her to participate in the Critical Pali Dictionary. In India, which she visited for the first time in 1963, she had established close contacts with Prof. A.N. Upadhye, Pandit D.D. Malvania, Prof. H.C. Bhayani, Pandit Sukhlalji and Muni Punyavijayaji. She worked several times in Mysore and in Ahmedabad, at the L.D. Institute of Indology, a place she continued to visit regularly over the years. Mme Caillat first taught Sanskrit and Comparative grammar at the University of Lyon (1960-1966). She was appointed at Sorbonne University (then University of Paris-3) in 1967, as the successor of Louis Renou who had died suddenly, and taught there until 1988, when she retired. She was elected a member of the Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres in 1987. She was a member of several academies and scholarly associations. Her contribution to the field of Jain studies and Middle Indo-Aryan linguistics is manifold. Apart from a number of articles, her main books are the following: - 1965/ Les expiations dans le rituel ancien des religieux jaina/, Paris, 1965 (D.Litt. thesis), translated into English as /Atonements in the Ancient Ritual of the Jaina Monks/, Ahmedabad, 1975 (L.D. Series 49). - 1966 /Drei Chedas?tras des Jaina-Kanons - Ay?radas?o, Vavah?ra, Nis?ha./ Bearbeitet von Walther Schubring. Mit einem Beitrag von Colette Caillat, Hamburg, 1966. - 1971 /Cand?vejjhaya, La Prunelle-cible/. Introduction, Edition critique, Traduction, Commentaire, Paris, 1971. - 1974-75 C. Caillat, A.N. Upadhye and Bal Patil, /Jainism/, Delhi, 1974-75. New edition, 2006. - 1981 /La cosmologie jaina/. Pr?sentation de Colette Caillat d'apr?s les documents recueillis par Ravi Kumar, Paris, 1981. /The Jain Cosmology/. English rendering by K.R. Norman, New Delhi; revised and enlarged edition, New Delhi, 2004. - 1985 Edition of /Recueil d'articles de Jules Bloch 1906-1955/, Paris, 1985. - 1999 Yog?ndu, /Lumi?re de l'Absolu/. Traduit de l'apabhramsha par Nalini Balbir et Colette Caillat, Paris, Payot, Rivages, 1999. (- 2007 co-edition, with Nalini Balbir, of the volume Jaina Studies, Proceedings of the World Sanskrit Conference, Helsinki, 2003; in the press). In 1981, Mme Caillat, who was the head of the research group "Equipe de philologie bouddhique et jaina", organised in Strasbourg the first International Jain Symposium outside India. The Proceedings were published in 1983 (/Indologica Taurinensia/ 11). In 1988, a Felicitation volume was offered to her (published as /Indologica Taurinensia/ 14). With regards to all, Yours sincerely, Nalini Balbir. From mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM Mon Jan 22 21:50:47 2007 From: mkmfolk at GMAIL.COM (Mahendra Kumar Mishra) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 07 03:20:47 +0530 Subject: palm leaf manuscript: script & identification? In-Reply-To: <3EFE7686632DC4161683A31D@dyn-iab-165-29.dyn.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227079374.23782.4942948576819262499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear Friend The script and language you have displayed is Oriya language in eastern India. I am a scholar on Oriya studies and I have edited the Bramhanda Purana. Can I help you? As the scholar of Oriya literature I have worked on it, I presume if you send me the first and last page I can tell you what is the content about. If you send the manuscript in photocopy or printed form this can be translated in to English language for the scholarship. But for this you have to commision the work here. best mahendra mishra www.asgporissa.org/mahendra On 1/22/07, David Magier wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > a colleague from NY is seeking assistance in identifying a 215-page palm > leaf manuscript. He is unsure of the language, the script, the age and the > text of the mss, and I would like to provide any possible pointers. An > image of one page of the manuscript is available online at: > > > > One colleague guessed it was a South Indian script, but another discounted > that theory and wondered if it was some Bengali or Oriya script. I also > wonder if it could be Southeast Asian. Advice anyone? > > Many thanks, > > David Magier > South/Southeast Asia Librarian > Columbia University Libraries > > From Julia.Hegewald at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Jan 23 07:44:13 2007 From: Julia.Hegewald at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Julia Hegewald) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 07 08:44:13 +0100 Subject: Conference on Jainism in Karnataka In-Reply-To: <1169277788.1446.15.camel@proliant> Message-ID: <161227079376.23782.16453288199549746881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jainism in Karnataka: Art, History, Literature and Religion 24th and 25th February 2007 National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS), Bangalore Saturday, 24th February 10:00-10:45 registration and coffee 10:45-11:00 welcome address (Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald) 11:00-11:30 keynote address (Prof. Dr. S. Settar) Literature panel: 11:30-12:00 Prof. Dr. Nagarajaiah Hampa (Bangalore) Jaina Literature in Karnataka: Early Phase (Up to the 9th century) 12:00-12:30 Prof. Dr. B.V. Sirur (Dharwad) Jaina Charite Literature with particular reference to the Gommatesvara Charite and the Padmavatipurana 12:30-13:00 Prof. Dr. R.V.S. Sundaram (Mysore) Elements of Jaina History in Kannada Literature 13:00-13:30 Prof. Dr. N.S. Taranath (Mysore) & Prof. Dr. Edward Noronha (Mysore) A Survey of Kannada Sources for a History of Jainism in Karnataka 13:30-14:30 lunch Religion panel: 14:30-15:00 Dr. Sucheta S. Desai (Dharwad) Ristas in Jainism 15:00-15:30 Vatsala Iyengar (Bangalore) Jain Goddesses and their Worship in Karnataka 15:30-16:00 Sabine Scholz (Heidelberg) The Revival of the Digambara Muni Tradition in Karnataka During the 20th Century 16:00-16:30 tea History panel 16:30-17:00 Prof. Dr. N. Subbarayalu (Pondicherry) Early Jainism in Tamil Nadu and Karnataka 17:00-17:30 Dr. P. N. Narasimha Murthy (Udipi) History of Jainism in Karnataka: Developments in the10th to 13th Centuries 17:30-18:00 Dr. S. Dibbada (Dharwad) The Destruction and Rebuilding of Jaina Basadis from a Historical Viewpoint 18:00-18:30 Dr. Pius F. Pinto (Heidelberg) History of Jainism During the Vijayanagara Period (1336-1565) 20:00 cultural evening and dinner Sunday, 25th February Art panel: 9:30-10:00 Dr. Parul P. Dhar (New Delhi) Jaina Art & Architecture of Karnataka: A Historiographical Perspective 10:00-10:30 Dr. Sharada Srinivasan (Bangalore) Jaina Bronzes from Karnataka 10:30-11:00 Dr. Julia A.B. Hegewald (Heidelberg) Sacred Symbols, Enlightened Beings and Temple Guardians: The Display of Holy Elements on Pillars in Jaina Temple Complexes in Karnataka 11:00-11:30 coffee Architecture panel: 11:30-12:00 Prof. Dr. M.S. Krishna Murthy (Mysore) Development of Jaina Temple Architecture in Southern Karnataka: From the Beginning to 1300 AD 12:00-12:30 Dr. K.M. Suresh (Hampi) Jaina Monuments in and Around Hampi Area 12:30-13:00 Prof. Miki Desai (Ahmedabad) Essential Differences in Plan Organisation and Formal Aspects of Southern Indian Jain Temples and those of Gujarat: Case Studies of Mudabidri and Palitana Temple Complex 13:00-13:30 Pratyush Shankar (Ahmedabad) Framework for Understanding Mudabidri Temples as Public Places 13:30-14:30 lunch 14:30-15:30 film on Shravanabelgola (Prof. Dr. S. Settar) 15:30-16:30 discussion and concluding session (Dr. Julia A.B. Hegewald) 16:30 tea and departure of delegates Conference venue: National Institute of Advanced Studies Indian Institute of Science Campus Bangalore 560 012 (Malleswaram, near Tata Institute) All are welcome. Please inform us by email of your intention to attend the seminar. Organisation: Dr. Julia A.B. Hegewald South Asia Institute (SAI) University of Heidelberg, Germany Julia.Hegewald at urz.uni-heidelberg.de Prof. Dr. S. Settar National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS), Bangalore, India settar at nias.iisc.ernet.in From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Tue Jan 23 17:36:42 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 07 18:36:42 +0100 Subject: Indology and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'" In-Reply-To: <45B0A21B.20325.9DA637@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de> Message-ID: <161227079378.23782.8523918411559911459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Previous contributions to this thread will be referred to by their date, e.g., Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:03:54, in order to facilitate retrieval from the INDOLOGY archives (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html).] __________________________________________________________ *THE QUESTION* Is there a connection between "German indology" of the National Socialist era (1933-1945) and "the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", and if so, where is the *EVIDENCE* for it? [Henceforth referred to as *THE QUESTION* and *EVIDENCE*] The above wording (in inverted commas) is Jan Houben's, but *THE QUESTION* itself harks back to Sheldon Pollock's "Deep Orientalism?..." (1993), where it is answered strongly in the affirmative. However, as I have tried to show in a recent article (see below), Pollock's discourse is based on conviction, not on *EVIDENCE* - a point which necessarily weakens the position of all those who have built their own argument on Pollock's discourse. __________________________________________________________ THE ASYMMETRY OF THE DEBATE The misunderstanding characterizing the debate between Jan Houben and me is indeed a fundamental one. I have addressed it in various contributions, but Houben's latest pronouncements (Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:03:54) suggests to me that my point still hasn't come across, and therefore I'd like to repeat it briefly: Our present debate was indirectly triggered by my contribution to the Festschrift Gustav Roth (2006), entitled: "Von der Indologie zum V?lkermord ? die Kontinuit?tskonstrukte Sheldon Pollocks und seiner Epigonen im Lichte ihrer Beweisf?hrung" (= "From indology to genocide - the continuity constructs of Sheldon Pollock and his epigones in the light of their submission of evidence"). The title of this article clearly states that my focus is on Pollock's "Deep orientalism? ..." (1993), especially - (1.) its "theorizing" of an alleged complicity of "German indology" with the crimes of the National Socialist era (1933-1945), - (2.) the *EVIDENCE* Pollock submits in support of this charge, and - (3.) the shape Pollock's theorizing takes in the hands of his numerous epigones, illustrated by Houben's report of the "Deutscher Orientalistentag" (=German Orientalist Congress) 1995. The guiding principle of my article, as well as of my approach in general, is to follow up as closely as possible whatever Pollock and his epigones present by way of evidence, or what could possibly be taken for such. I have no ambition to "construct" my own history of "German indology", let alone to liberate "each and every German indologist of the 1900-1945 period from any possible association with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the pure Aryan race", as Houben claims (Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:13:01), presumably against better knowledge. I strictly confine myself to a comprehensive evaluation of all *EVIDENCE* submitted to prove Pollock's claim of a relation between "German indology" and the National Socialist ideology. Speculations, opinions, etc., are outside the scope of my evaluation. The same applies to an aspect Houben tries to push to the foreground, viz., what he calls the "discontinuity" of the post-1945 era. But as long as the "continuity" bit of Houben's stance, i.e., the alleged involvement of "German indology" in NS ideology, has not been proven to rest on sound *EVIDENCE*, the question of a "discontinuity" simply doesn't arise! Should it turn out in the course of my evaluation that the submitted *EVIDENCE* is invalid, flawed, or illusory, I take the liberty to consider all pronouncements based on it misleading - as I have done in the said article. One more word on *EVIDENCE*: In my article I have chosen to discuss Jan Houben's 1995 report as an example of the epigonal wake of Pollock's "Deep orientalism?..." - a choice Houben has no "authoritative" say in, although he may find that hard to put up with. I chose his report to illustrate the percolation of Pollock's "Deep orientalism?..." down to the shallow postorientalist platitudes disseminated in countless remarks of similar hue. What raises Houben's above many others (to be treated elsewhere), and what attracted my attention, is - (1.) his attitude of the "well-informed" indologist handing out authoritative hints to those less knowledgeable in the field, and - (2.) his reference to "selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49)" of the Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft (ZDMG) in corroboration of the alleged connection between indology and the ideology of the National Socialist regime. That said, I can understand that Jan Houben is not happy with my choice - although he is still "very happy" with his report, as he assures. Nonetheless, he constantly tries to draw attention away from it by introducing other material, all of it published much later. A few years ago, when I was first led up that path with the same summary hints at post-1995 publications, it soon became clear that the post-festum material thrown into the debate was irrelevant to *THE QUESTION*, and therefore I didn't see any reason to give it further consideration. In view of Houben's recent insistence that I must comply with his will, no matter what, in order to prove myself qualified to discuss his 1995 report, I have looked into the matter again, and with the same result. This will be exemplified below with regard to his 1999 article in Asiatische Studien. I have also obediently revisited "Beyond Orientalism ..." ed. by E. Franco and K. Preisendanz, a book of 673 pages (without index), in which the discussion of pertinent racial theories does not go much beyond occasional references (e.g., Pollock's ideas are mentioned, but not discussed at any length). Therefore I see no reason to overburden the present discussion with these additional materials, unless Houben points out where exactly he sees *THE QUESTION* featuring in them. HOUBEN'S *STATEMENT* The bone of contention between Houben and me is the following section of his 1995 report: Vergangenheit Bewaltigung To the extent that indology in general owes a great debt to the contributions of German indology, it also has to come to terms with some of the more problematic aspects of the history of the latter. I am referring here, of course, to the positive relations which some indologists at least maintained with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' before and during the period of the Second World War period. Essential reading for a well-informed discussion on this sensitive topic should comprise S. Pollock?s provocative "Deep Orientalism (...)", passages from Halbfass' "India and Europe" [specified by Houben Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:13:01: "Halbfass 1988: 139-140"], and selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49) of the Zeitschrift f?r die Deutsche Morgenl?ndische Gesellschaft. As I have pointed out earlier (Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:43:48), the use of the term "Vergangenheitsbew?ltigung" in the chapter heading inevitably suggests some kind of involvement of "German indology" in the crimes committed during the National Socialist regime 1933-1945. But after I had pointed that out, Houben simply extended his "authoritative exegetical" title to the German language by brushing over this "restricted sense" of the term (Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:03:54). As for the accompanying reminder of his introductory appraisal (just leading over from the previous section), as well as his pseudo-psychological musings on "fear", "punishment" etc., they are all beside the point and will not concern me here. In the hope that this will preclude further accusations of "distortive reformulation" etc., I confine myself to Houben's own words, which unambiguously state that he sees the "more problematic aspects" of the history of "German indology" in a "positive relations" of "at least some" indologists "with the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". There can be no reasonable doubt that Houben's statement (henceforth: *STATEMENT*) answers *THE QUESTION* in the affirmative. HOUBEN'S *EVIDENCE* As for *EVIDENCE* in support of the above *STATEMENT*, Houben then presents a shortlist of "essential reading for a well-informed discussion of this sensitive topic", opening with Pollock's "Deep Orientalism?...". First, there can be no reasonable doubt that the "sensitive topic" Houben refers to is *THE QUESTION* of a connection between "German indology" of the National Socialist era (1933-1945) and "the German government and its disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", if only for the reason that there is no other "sensitive topic" in sight within miles of his *STATEMENT*. But supposing Houben would object that his reference to Pollock was not intended as an endorsement of Pollock's "theorizing" of that "sensitive topic", it may be asked how Pollock then comes to take pride of place in Houben's list of required reading on that same topic. In addition, it may be asked what purpose Houben's reference to Pollock's "Deep Orientalism?..." could possibly serve, other than as *EVIDENCE* in support of Houben's *STATEMENT*. The answer is: none - for the simple reason that there is no other aspect in Pollock's "Deep Orientalism?..." that Houben could refer to in the given context. In fact, the part of "Deep Orientalism?..." that deals with "German indology" is about little else than Pollock's "theory" of an involvement of German indologists in "the ultimate 'orientalist' project, the legitimation of genocide" (Pollock 1993:96). And there is another aspect of Pollock's "theorizing" that has to be considered here because it precludes the possibility that Houben may have referred to Pollock with regard to the "discontinuity theme", which now seems destined to become Houben's preferred escape route: Pollock doesn't even contemplate the possibility of a "discontinuity", or rather, his idea of "discontinuity" is a lethal one (Pollock 1993:111): From its colonial origins in Justice Sir William to its consummation in SS Obersturmf?hrer W?st, Sanskrit and Indian studies have contributed directly to consolidating and sustaining programs of domination. (...) In a postcolonial and post-Holocaust world, however, these traditional foundations and uses of Indology have disappeared, and the current self- interrogations within our field may (...) somehow be responding to this new impotence and the loss of purpose in scholarly activity that it implies. In other words, if Indological knowledge has historically been coexistent with vanished institutions of coercive power, then the production of such knowledge no longer serves its primary and defining purpose. Our obsession with orientalism over the past decade might suggest that Indologists, who have begun to realize their historical implication in domination only now that it has ended, no longer know why they are doing what they do". So much for Pollock's postcolonial funeral sermon. This is not the place to discuss his article at length - something I have taken up in my contribution to the FS Roth, and shall continue in a separate publication [cf. also Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:42:48]. The next item on Houben's list is "passages from Halbfass's 'India and Europe' (Albany, 1988)", later specified to "Halbfass 1988:139-140" (see Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:13:01). Now, in the said passage, Wilhelm Halfass merely lists some protagonists of "the Aryan myth and speculative ideas about India", none of whom are indologist, and none of whom Halbfass associated with the "ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". Furthermore, no trace of the "discontinuity theme" here either [cf. also Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:42:48]! Now to the third item on Houben's list, viz., "selected articles and notices of the volumes 92-98 (1938-44) and 99 (1945-49)" of the ZDMG. Following up Houben's summary hint, I have examined c. 700 pages of indological articles and notices in those volumes, with the result that they contain virtually nothing that could be related to an ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' (for details see my article). At closer inspection, even two oft-quoted conference abstracts by Erich Frauwallner (1938/1939; roughly 4 pages out of 700) do not fall into this category, although Frauwallner's concept of the history of Indian philosophy is based on race theory. I have treated that in my article, pointing out the features that distinguish Frauwallner's position from other views of that period. By contrast, I'm not aware that the writings Houben tries to impose on me as required reading treat this point in greater depth, and this alone would be enough to discard his demand as unreasonable. But just the same, I'll take a brief look at his essay entitled "Why Did Rationality Thrive, But Hardly Survive ...?" (Asiatische Studien 53, 1999, pp. 491-512), where Houben shows that Frauwallner's 1953 concept of the development of Samkhya from "scientific, presuppositionless" (1999:493) to "a period in which rationality steadily decreased" (1999:498) is basically the same as his argumentation in his abstracts of 1938 and 1939, with the significant difference that "the ethnic part was amputated from an earlier explanatory model" (1999:507; cf. Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:36:07). However important this observation may be for the "discontinuity theme", it is of no immediate relevance to *THE QUESTION*. And as for Frauwallner's earlier views on race, Houben himself observes that "in pre-second world-war Europe, explanations for such large cultural phenomena commonly involved the notion of races and their inborn propensities and capacities" (1999:507). As shown in my article, Frauwallner's race theory, so far as it emerges from his two short conference abstracts published in the ZDMG in 1938 and 1939, as well as the full conference paper published in the Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes, remains within these "commonly" held views and show no special affinity with NS ideology - in fact, they were in conflict with those of Alfred Rosenberg, chief NS ideologue, and Walther W?st. That Frauwallner later revised them just the same is sufficiently explained by the fact that, after 1945, theories of race in general, and "the Aryan" in particular, had fallen into disrepute, irrespective of their possible affinity with the NS ideology. [NOTE: Houben's himself points to his article in ?tudes de Lettres, 2001.3, as another example of his "grappling with this problem" of phenomena that remain "unexplained" because former explanations drawing on race theory have later been "amputated". As in the previous case, this relates to the "discontinuity theme", but not to *THE QUESTION*, and therefore this article can be left out of consideration here.] _______________________ Summing up, vols. 1938-1944 of the ZDMG yield no *EVIDENCE* that could in any way substantiate Houben's *STATEMENT* of a relation between German indologists and "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", especially not in the sense implied by Pollock's "Deep Orientalism? ...", the primary point of reference in the pertinent part of Houben's report. As for ZDMG 99 (1945-49), one may be tempted to think that Houben included this post-war volume in order to corroborate the "discontinuity theme" because the volume closes with the proceedings of the 1948 Mainz session of the DMG, convened to reorganize the Society and give it a new statute, according to which former NSDAP members are allowed to join only if they can produce a clearance certificate from the Allied authorities. But Houben mentions the Mainz session separately in the next paragraph of his report, without reference to vol 99. Therefore - if I'm allowed a bit of "unauthoritative" speculation - the inclusion of vol. 99 in the list of "essential reading" on the "sensitive topic" of "the disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race' may as well be intended to serve a different purpose, viz., to insinuate some kind of "continuity" beyond the end of the NS regime, because the proceedings of the Mainz session mention a number of indologists who also feature in Pollock's illusory "NS indology". Meanwhile, Houben may have realized that his reference to the ZDMG was somewhat inappropriate. At least I observe a remarkable change of discourse strategy in his recent attempt (Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:03:54) to minimize the wholesale implication of the ZDMG in his report to - (1.) "notices of W?st (...), references to his organizational DMG activities explicitly in connection with the then current political situation" and - (2.) "articles of Frauwallner" (Houben leaves it to his readers to find them for themselves) - which, as shown, do not fall into that category, and will not concern me here any further. As for Houben's ominous "notices of W?st" (also no reference provided), there is only one that I know of, viz. in ZDMG 96 (1942), pp. *13*-*15*, reporting that W?st, in his capacity as "Beauftragter im Kriegseinsatz der Geisteswissenschaften" ("commissary of the war effort of the arts/humanities") was authorized by the ministry of education to convene a conference of German orientalists (see the references to the 1942 proceedings, ed. by H.H. Schaeder, in my article). Things must be very desparate if one has to catch at this three-liner to support one's theorizing of ZDMG 92-99! (For the only indological contribution to that volume, Frauwallner's "Die Bedeutung der indischen Philosophie" (1942:158-169), cf. my article). Meanwhile, Houben concedes that these data may reduce the number of "at least some" to just two indologists, viz., Walther W?st and Erich Frauwallner, but he still seems to find the wholesale reference to ZDMG 92-99 fully justified, although the three items he actually draws on amount to no more than roughly 5 pages out of c. 700 dealing with indological topics. As indicated in my article, I see this gross exaggeration in the context of Pollock's impressive metaphor of a post-1933 "flood" of indological writings "that, without any overt commitment to National Socialism, fully embrace the terms of its discourse by their unchallenged participation in and acceptance of the Fragestellungen, the thematics, of NS Indology" (Pollock 1993:91). While Pollock is wise to avoid concrete references, his epigones sometimes show a tendency to expose themselves with all too courageous assertions. In later stages of the present debate, Houben tried to build his stance on circumstantial evidence of sorts, arguing that "those who explicitly keep positive relations with the then German government are automatically keeping sufficiently positive relations with the government's ideology of the pure Aryan race" (Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:03:54) - an automatism that conveniently exempts his "authoritative" pronouncements from the usual procedure of verification. Now, it is reasonable to assume such "positive relations (...) with the German government" in general for the six or so indologists Pollock lists as members of the NSDAP (Alsdorf, Breloer, Frauwallner, Hauer, R. Schmidt and W?st). However, Houben goes much further when he specifies these "positive relations" with regard to the "disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'". In my article I have tried to show that indications of the endorsement Houben presupposes here can only be found in the political speeches of Walther W?st. But whatever conclusions one draws from that, they cannot automatically be extended to other indologists, not even to those other members of the NSDAP, let alone to "German indology" as a whole. Hypothetically assuming that the six or so NSDAP members endorsed the "disastrous ideology of the 'pure Aryan race'", at least tacitly (as long as there is no evidence of public endorsement, except in W?st's political speeches), what conclusion would that allow beyond their personal political convictions, especially with regard to indology? Is indology in any way determined by the political convictions of indologists? Furthermore, I find it hard to imagine how anyone can recommend Pollock's "Deep Orientalism? ..." as "essential reading" without in some way approving the theory that Pollock's piece is all about, viz. that German indologists played an active role in the formation (or at least the dissemination) of that ideology with the "epistemological instruments of Indologie" (Pollock 1993:84) - which brings me back to the question of *EVIDENCE* ... More on this elsewhere. Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 Goettingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From dvf at UMICH.EDU Wed Jan 24 15:24:17 2007 From: dvf at UMICH.EDU (David Fiordalis) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 07 10:24:17 -0500 Subject: 12 Names of Surya Message-ID: <161227079383.23782.11322339617063092697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, A friend of mine who is an Iyengar Yoga instructor is interested in knowing where the list of 12 names of Surya included in the Iyengar practice manual may come from. They are: mitra, ravi, sUrya, bhAna, khaga, pUSan, hiraNyagarbha, marIci, Aditya, savitR, arka, and bhAskara. Does anyone know a text that lists these particular 12 as the names of Surya? I know there are other lists in the Mahabharata and elsewhere, but so far as I'm aware these include some different members. My apologies for cross-posting. David Fiordalis PhD Candidate Dept of Asian Languages and Cultures University of Michigan From jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE Wed Jan 24 14:19:38 2007 From: jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE (John Peterson) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 07 15:19:38 +0100 Subject: European studies on South Asian Languages Message-ID: <161227079381.23782.254649151198240996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I am presently preparing the regional report for Europe for the upcoming issue of "The Yearbook of South Asian Languages and Lingusitics", edited by Rajendra Singh. This edition of the "Regional Report - Europe" is to contain information on ALL linguistic work published since 2004 by authors working at a European institution or residing in Europe (similar reports are being done for other parts of the globe) and is intended to document the extent and variety of work done during this period. Although such a regional report can probably never really be fully exhaustive, I would like to cover as much work from as many scholars as possible and to overlook as little as possible. I would therefore be interested in hearing from anyone working in Europe on ANY aspects of South Asian languages about their work. This includes work on any language, language family or linguistic isolate spoken in South Asia (or previously spoken in South Asia) from any of the following areas: - Descriptive linguistics - Historical linguistics - Theoretical linguistics - Phonetics / Phonology - Typological studies - Sociolinguistics - Psycholinguistics - Areal studies - Computer linguistics and much, much more! Any information you could share with me on your own work or that of your colleagues would greatly be appreciated! All the best, John (Unfortunately, for reasons of space, I won't be including reviews in the report, sorry!) -- John Peterson FB 7, Sprachwissenschaft Universit?t Osnabr?ck D-49069 Osnabr?ck Germany Telephone: (+49) (0)541-969 4252 Telefax: (+49) (0)541-969 4256 Homepage: http://www.SouthAsiaBibliography.de/ From elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK Wed Jan 24 16:06:08 2007 From: elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 07 16:06:08 +0000 Subject: 12 Names of Surya In-Reply-To: <20070124102417.cqh5u723kkw44gk0@web.mail.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227079385.23782.11673737811141721101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear David, I do not know about the actual textual provenance of this list (someone else may know this), but it is found in the following book, where it is unattributed: Sadguru Sant Keshavadas, GAyatrI: The Highest Meditation, 2002 Motilal Banarsidass the book first came out in 1978 and has gone through many reprints since, we can therefore assume it has been quite successful and widely distributed. The list (with the full Sanskrit invocation for each name, such as OM MitrAya Nama.h etc) is found on pages 84-85, and is part of preparatory prayers to perform "SandhyA-vandana", a discipline of 16 kriyAs, explained in the book in fair amount of detail, "in which the universal light of GAyatrI is invoked" (:81). This particular list is indeed prescribed to accompany sun salutation performance. Do let me know if you get any further offline information, I'd be interested to know. Best regards EDM Dr Elizabeth De Michelis Oriel College, Oriel Square, Oxford, UK OX1 4EW Tel: 01865-276550 email: elizabeth.demichelis at oriel.ox.ac.uk http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/modernyoga/ On 24 Jan 2007, at 15:24, David Fiordalis wrote: > Dear List members, > > A friend of mine who is an Iyengar Yoga instructor is interested in > knowing > where the list of 12 names of Surya included in the Iyengar > practice manual may come from. > > They are: mitra, ravi, sUrya, bhAna, khaga, pUSan, hiraNyagarbha, > marIci, > Aditya, savitR, arka, and bhAskara. > > Does anyone know a text that lists these particular 12 as the names > of Surya? I know there are other lists in the Mahabharata and > elsewhere, but so far as I'm aware these include some different > members. > > My apologies for cross-posting. > > > David Fiordalis > > PhD Candidate > Dept of Asian Languages and Cultures > University of Michigan > From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Wed Jan 24 17:24:04 2007 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (=?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A9rard_Huet?=) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 07 18:24:04 +0100 Subject: European studies on South Asian Languages In-Reply-To: <1521.131.173.152.221.1169648378.squirrel@webmail.rz.uni-osnabrueck.de > Message-ID: <161227079387.23782.18327702690880017270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, I am by profession a computer scientist and logician. For the last 5 years, I have been working in computational linguistics for the Sanskrit language. This has resulted in a Web site with various Web services for Sanskrit linguistics, at http://sanskrit.inria.fr/ This effort is still going on. Various publications pertaining to this research have been published, please refer to my publications page http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/bib.html at items [78], [84] to [89] and [92]. I hope these informations are of help to your survey Best regards G. Huet Le 24 janv. 07 ? 15:19, John Peterson a ?crit : > Dear colleagues, > > I am presently preparing the regional report for Europe for the > upcoming > issue of "The Yearbook of South Asian Languages and Lingusitics", > edited > by Rajendra Singh. This edition of the "Regional Report - Europe" > is to > contain information on ALL linguistic work published since 2004 by > authors > working at a European institution or residing in Europe (similar > reports > are being done for other parts of the globe) and is intended to > document > the extent and variety of work done during this period. > > Although such a regional report can probably never really be fully > exhaustive, I would like to cover as much work from as many > scholars as > possible and to overlook as little as possible. I would therefore be > interested in hearing from anyone working in Europe on ANY aspects of > South Asian languages about their work. This includes work on any > language, language family or linguistic isolate spoken in South > Asia (or > previously spoken in South Asia) from any of the following areas: > > - Descriptive linguistics > - Historical linguistics > - Theoretical linguistics > - Phonetics / Phonology > - Typological studies > - Sociolinguistics > - Psycholinguistics > - Areal studies > - Computer linguistics > > and much, much more! > > Any information you could share with me on your own work or that of > your > colleagues would greatly be appreciated! > > All the best, > John > > (Unfortunately, for reasons of space, I won't be including reviews > in the > report, sorry!) > > -- > John Peterson > FB 7, Sprachwissenschaft > Universit?t Osnabr?ck > D-49069 Osnabr?ck > Germany > Telephone: (+49) (0)541-969 4252 > Telefax: (+49) (0)541-969 4256 > Homepage: http://www.SouthAsiaBibliography.de/ > > From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Thu Jan 25 15:42:01 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 07 16:42:01 +0100 Subject: BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT: Translation of 100-year old Urdu ms. Message-ID: <161227079390.23782.4217530955809368882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alberto M. Cacopardo and Ruth Laila Schmidt (eds.) My Heartrendingly Tragic Story Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah Khan 'Azar' The autobiography of Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah Khan 'Azar', a Kati from the Bashgal Valley in Afghanistan, was written in 1908, in exile in India, after a long period of service with the colonial rulers. In his account, Azar recollects the laws, customs, religion and history of his people, and adds his own life story. It is the only insider account of the Katis as they lived before their subjugation and conversion by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan in 1895-96, as well as an account of the Amir's campaign; and a rare description of his English masters by a colonial subject, at a time when the British Empire was at the height of its power. The entire original manuscript is reproduced in facsimile as the second part of the book. Extensive annotations by Alberto Cacopardo shed new light on the manuscript's historical background. Alberto Cacopardo is a member of the Istituto Italiano per l'Africa e l'Oriente and has done anthropological research on the cultures of the Hindu Kush. Ruth Laila Schmidt is professor of Urdu at the University of Oslo, and has done research on Urdu and the Dardic language Shina. ISBN 978-82-7099-432-8 331 pp. Hardcover Map, photographs Introduction by Georg Morgenstierne NOK 390,- EUR 46,80 Postage to Europe EUR 15; all other EUR 22 NOVUS PRESS, HERMAN FOSS GATE 19, NO-0171 OSLO, NORWAY E-mail: novus at novus.no Telefax, +47 2271 8107 http://www.novus.no From elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK Thu Jan 25 23:12:17 2007 From: elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 07 23:12:17 +0000 Subject: BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT: Translation of 100-year old Urdu ms. In-Reply-To: <007001c74097$5b3dbac0$3271d154@Winston> Message-ID: <161227079393.23782.11597778600293503585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Nile, maybe of interest? (I am assuming you do not subscribe do Indology) Will be in touch again early Feb re dinner. Very best Elizabeth On 25 Jan 2007, at 15:42, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Alberto M. Cacopardo and Ruth Laila Schmidt (eds.) > > My Heartrendingly Tragic Story > > Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah Khan 'Azar' > > The autobiography of Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah Khan 'Azar', a Kati > from the > Bashgal Valley in Afghanistan, was written in 1908, in exile in > India, after > a long period of service with the colonial rulers. In his account, > Azar > recollects the laws, customs, religion and history of his people, > and adds > his own life story. It is the only insider account of the Katis as > they > lived before their subjugation and conversion by Amir Abdur Rahman > Khan in > 1895-96, as well as an account of the Amir's campaign; and a rare > description of his English masters by a colonial subject, at a time > when the > British Empire was at the height of its power. > The entire original manuscript is reproduced in facsimile > as the > second part of the book. Extensive annotations by Alberto Cacopardo > shed new > light on the manuscript's historical background. > Alberto Cacopardo is a member of the Istituto Italiano per > l'Africa > e l'Oriente and has done anthropological research on the cultures > of the > Hindu Kush. > Ruth Laila Schmidt is professor of Urdu at the University > of Oslo, > and has done research on Urdu and the Dardic language Shina. > > ISBN 978-82-7099-432-8 > 331 pp. > Hardcover > Map, photographs > Introduction by Georg Morgenstierne > > NOK 390,- > EUR 46,80 > Postage to Europe EUR 15; all other EUR 22 > > NOVUS PRESS, > HERMAN FOSS GATE 19, > NO-0171 OSLO, NORWAY > E-mail: novus at novus.no > Telefax, +47 2271 8107 > http://www.novus.no > From elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK Thu Jan 25 23:16:16 2007 From: elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 07 23:16:16 +0000 Subject: BOOK ANNOUNCEMENT: Translation of 100-year old Urdu ms. In-Reply-To: <8DEEBD5E-4FFD-4CA6-90AF-ACFDDBF9D76B@oriel.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227079395.23782.14308216272827317865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, sorry for the message gone back to the list rather than to my colleague, as intended. Regards EDM On 25 Jan 2007, at 23:12, Elizabeth De Michelis wrote: > Dear Nile, > > maybe of interest? (I am assuming you do not subscribe do Indology) > > Will be in touch again early Feb re dinner. > > Very best > > Elizabeth > > On 25 Jan 2007, at 15:42, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > >> >> >> Alberto M. Cacopardo and Ruth Laila Schmidt (eds.) >> >> My Heartrendingly Tragic Story >> >> Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah Khan 'Azar' >> >> The autobiography of Shaikh Muhammad Abdullah Khan 'Azar', a Kati >> from the >> Bashgal Valley in Afghanistan, was written in 1908, in exile in >> India, after >> a long period of service with the colonial rulers. In his account, >> Azar >> recollects the laws, customs, religion and history of his people, >> and adds >> his own life story. It is the only insider account of the Katis as >> they >> lived before their subjugation and conversion by Amir Abdur Rahman >> Khan in >> 1895-96, as well as an account of the Amir's campaign; and a rare >> description of his English masters by a colonial subject, at a >> time when the >> British Empire was at the height of its power. >> The entire original manuscript is reproduced in facsimile >> as the >> second part of the book. Extensive annotations by Alberto >> Cacopardo shed new >> light on the manuscript's historical background. >> Alberto Cacopardo is a member of the Istituto Italiano per >> l'Africa >> e l'Oriente and has done anthropological research on the cultures >> of the >> Hindu Kush. >> Ruth Laila Schmidt is professor of Urdu at the University >> of Oslo, >> and has done research on Urdu and the Dardic language Shina. >> >> ISBN 978-82-7099-432-8 >> 331 pp. >> Hardcover >> Map, photographs >> Introduction by Georg Morgenstierne >> >> NOK 390,- >> EUR 46,80 >> Postage to Europe EUR 15; all other EUR 22 >> >> NOVUS PRESS, >> HERMAN FOSS GATE 19, >> NO-0171 OSLO, NORWAY >> E-mail: novus at novus.no >> Telefax, +47 2271 8107 >> http://www.novus.no >> > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jan 28 14:40:10 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 07 14:40:10 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit/Indian History job advertisement in Canada Message-ID: <161227079398.23782.13397522659552841135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Polity and Society University of Alberta, Edmonton Department of History and Classics Details at: http://www.careers.ualberta.ca/Opportunities/index.aspx?Page=47&CompNo=1025 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 29 13:09:10 2007 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 07 13:09:10 +0000 Subject: Archiving the old INDOLOGY website Message-ID: <161227079400.23782.8245153263881499837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message to this list on 2 Dec 2005 (http://tinyurl.com/2ll5q5), I announced that the INDOLOGY website would be moving away from the old UCL address (my own personal, college-provided web directory), to the new address http://indology.info I put a redirecting page at the old address. The old site at UCL hasn't been updated for a year, and the new site is a live concern, thanks to the excellent work of Richard Mahoney, and the ongoing financial support of the UK's Society for South Asian Studies (click logo on the website, bottom right). Today, I am taking the next logical step, which is to take the old website offline. I'll leave the forwarding page there, but it will only work for links to the main "front" page of the old website, not for any direct links to subsidiary pages "inside" the website. If you want to have a nice moment of nostalgia, you can always look at the old website in the WayBack Machine, where the whole web is archived: put the old URL "http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html" into the WayBack Machine at "http://www.archive.org". Best, Dominik -- Dr Dominik Wujastyk Senior Research Fellow University College London http://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 07:57:47 2007 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (JAGANADH GOPINADHAN) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 07:57:47 +0000 Subject: Visraga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079403.23782.9402373826297258989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Collegues How we can definr anuswara and visarga. Is it correct to say visarga as the pure consonent form of ha Any body can give referance on the history of anuswara and visarga. JAGANADH.G LINGUIST HDG-LTS C-DAC VELAYAMBALAM THIRUVANANTHAPURAM P-H+91 9895420624 E-MAIL- jaganadh at cdactvm.in,navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com http://sabdabodha.googlepages.com www.malayalammorph.blogspot.com www.malayalamresourceceter.org _________________________________________________________________ Latest from the world of gadgets and gizmos http://content.msn.co.in/Technology/Default.htm From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Jan 30 17:02:25 2007 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 10:02:25 -0700 Subject: British Library cuts Message-ID: <161227079408.23782.1938607219250412465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Part of and diagnostic of this farcical economic process: >?From the Guardian article....... "...It is another worrying example of the cultural and heritage infrastructure being cut away and of things like the Olympics taking more and more money." Joanna Kirkpatrick Bennington College, ret. ==================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony K. Stewart" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:39 AM Subject: British Library cuts > Dear Colleagues: > > Please take a moment to read the following articles about proposed cuts > to the British Library (services, collections) and the proposed > introduction of reader fees. > > Apologies for any cross listings. And perhaps some of our UK colleagues > can shed additional light on the subject and suggest an appropriate > response. > > http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2192972.ece > http://guardian.co.uk/books > > > Sincerely, > > tony > > > Tony K. Stewart > Professor of South Asian Religions & Literatures > Dept. of Philosophy and Religion > Campus Box 8103 > North Carolina State University > Raleigh, NC 27695-8103 USA > ph. +1.919.515.6335 > email > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.14/658 - Release Date: 1/29/2007 > 2:49 PM > > From tony_stewart at NCSU.EDU Tue Jan 30 16:39:46 2007 From: tony_stewart at NCSU.EDU (Tony K. Stewart) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 11:39:46 -0500 Subject: British Library cuts Message-ID: <161227079406.23782.10116043334508571160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: Please take a moment to read the following articles about proposed cuts to the British Library (services, collections) and the proposed introduction of reader fees. Apologies for any cross listings. And perhaps some of our UK colleagues can shed additional light on the subject and suggest an appropriate response. http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2192972.ece http://guardian.co.uk/books Sincerely, tony Tony K. Stewart Professor of South Asian Religions & Literatures Dept. of Philosophy and Religion Campus Box 8103 North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8103 USA ph. +1.919.515.6335 email From sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA Tue Jan 30 20:26:57 2007 From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA (Sanjay Kumar) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 15:26:57 -0500 Subject: Annual Sanskrit Conference: Friday, April 27, 2007 Message-ID: <161227079413.23782.3029824345241984004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Annual Sanskrit Conference Friday, April 27, 2007 Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University, Montreal, Canada You are invited to present papers in the third Annual Sanskrit Conference to be held at the Faculty of Religious Studies of McGill University on Friday, April 27, 2007. Presentations focusing on any aspect of religious or cultural traditions of India are welcomed. Interdisciplinary and comparative topics are also invited. Formal presentations should be no longer than 20 minutes; 10 minutes will be devoted to question and answer period. The language of the conference including the question and answer period will be Sanskrit. Requests for audiovisual equipment should be submitted at least a week before the conference date. The conference was inaugurated on May 4, 2005 to promote the use of Sanskrit as a language of research among modern scholars of Indian studies. It will serve as a forum in which various aspects of Indian religious and cultural traditions can be discussed in primary language of internal communication within the multi-lingual Hindu community until very recent time, and provide an intellectual atmosphere in which modern and traditional scholarships may be studied. Previous conferences have included participants from Canada, USA, and India. All are welcome to attend and participate in the seminar. For further information, please send inquiries to Sanjay Kumar at sanjay.kumar at mail.mcgill.ca . Sanjay Kumar Dr. R. Saraswati Sainath Shital Sharma -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ?????? ???????? ???????????????? ????-???????????????? ????????????????? ?????????? ????-?????????????? ??????-?????? ????????? ???????? ?????????? ???????-???????????????? ??????????? ???????-???????????????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ??????-?????? ????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????????? ????????? ??????? ? ????????????????????????-??????????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???????????? ? ???????????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??????????????????? ????????????????? ????????????? ???? ???????????????? ? ???? ?????????? ????????? ???????-???????????????? ????????????? ???????????????????? ??????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????????????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???? ?? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????????? ?????? ????????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???????? ????????????????? ????????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????????? ? ??? ? ?????????? ????????? ???????? ???? ???????-?????????? ????????????????????? ? ?????????????? ????-?????-???????-???????? ?????????????????????????????????? ????????????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ? ???????????? ????????? ?????????? ????? sanjay.kumar at mail.mcgill.ca ???????? ?????????? ? ???????? :- ?????????? ??? ??? ????????????? ????????? From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Tue Jan 30 17:45:54 2007 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 18:45:54 +0100 Subject: British Library cuts/Olympics In-Reply-To: <003601c74490$6b0f9070$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227079410.23782.11129975429279730533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We're having an Olympic debate in this country right now. The Olympics are not simply about 14 days of useless fun. They are about investment in projects that would otherwise be impossible for political reasons. In 1994, Norway hosted the winter olympics. Billions of kroner were injected into roads, sewers etc in Eastern Norway (the part of the country that was in the "oil shadow") without a beep of protest from the rest of the country. The Olympics are the way to go when you want to invest in infrastructure and develop a particular area. The whole country cooperates, the public at large shuts up, and the politicians can do pretty much what they like. In Norway, Northern and Western Norway would normally go ape if that much money were spent on projects in Eastern Norway - not to mention Oslo, the most hated and despised capital in the world. You don't get this effect with libraries, operas and other stuff for eggheads and the posh people. Best of all with the Olympics: if you get them, you can sell TV rights to the rest of the world, as well as souvenirs and other things. The rest of the world is happy to subsidize you investments in infrastructure. Not all Olympic projects are equally profitable, some turn out to be disappointments. But for politicians, they are very, very alluring. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of jkirk > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:02 PM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: British Library cuts > > Part of and diagnostic of this farcical economic process: > > From the Guardian article....... > "...It is another worrying example of the cultural and > heritage infrastructure being cut away and of things like the > Olympics taking more and more money." > > Joanna Kirkpatrick > Bennington College, ret. > ==================== > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony K. Stewart" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:39 AM > Subject: British Library cuts > > > > Dear Colleagues: > > > > Please take a moment to read the following articles about > proposed cuts > > to the British Library (services, collections) and the proposed > > introduction of reader fees. > > > > Apologies for any cross listings. And perhaps some of our > UK colleagues > > can shed additional light on the subject and suggest an > appropriate > > response. > > > > http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2192972.ece > > http://guardian.co.uk/books > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > tony > > > > > > Tony K. Stewart > > Professor of South Asian Religions & Literatures > > Dept. of Philosophy and Religion > > Campus Box 8103 > > North Carolina State University > > Raleigh, NC 27695-8103 USA > > ph. +1.919.515.6335 > > email > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.14/658 - Release > Date: 1/29/2007 > > 2:49 PM > > > > > From sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA Wed Jan 31 02:41:30 2007 From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA (Sanjay Kumar) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 21:41:30 -0500 Subject: Annual Sanskrit Conference: Friday, April 27, 2007 Message-ID: <161227079419.23782.14703553801893137348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Harshaji: I am surprised to hear that you did not receive my short article! I sent it on December 13 from Rishikesh. I will find and forward the email to you again as soon I have access to my computer. Presently, my computer is out of order. Sanjay Kumar -----Original Message----- From: Indology on behalf of Harsha Dehejia Sent: Tue 30/01/2007 6:44 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Re: Annual Sanskrit Conference: Friday, April 27, 2007 Sanjay: You were to send me a short note on DRISTI by December 15. What happened? Harsha from Bombay, India > Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:26:57 -0500> From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA> Subject: Annual Sanskrit Conference: Friday, April 27, 2007> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> > Annual Sanskrit Conference> > > > Friday, April 27, 2007> > > > Faculty of Religious Studies> > McGill University, Montreal, Canada> > > > You are invited to present papers in the third Annual Sanskrit Conference to be held at the Faculty of Religious Studies of McGill University on Friday, April 27, 2007. Presentations focusing on any aspect of religious or cultural traditions of India are welcomed. Interdisciplinary and comparative topics are also invited. Formal presentations should be no longer than 20 minutes; 10 minutes will be devoted to question and answer period. The language of the conference including the question and answer period will be Sanskrit. Requests for audiovisual equipment should be submitted at least a week before the conference date. > > > > The conference was inaugurated on May 4, 2005 to promote the use of Sanskrit as a language of research among modern scholars of Indian studies. It will serve as a forum in which various aspects of Indian religious and cultural traditions can be discussed in primary language of internal communication within the multi-lingual Hindu community until very recent time, and provide an intellectual atmosphere in which modern and traditional scholarships may be studied. > > > > Previous conferences have included participants from Canada, USA, and India.> > > > All are welcome to attend and participate in the seminar. For further information, please send inquiries to Sanjay Kumar at sanjay.kumar at mail.mcgill.ca . > > > > Sanjay Kumar> > Dr. R. Saraswati Sainath> > Shital Sharma> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > ?????? ???????? ????????????????> > ????-???????????????? ????????????????? ??????????> > ????-?????????????? ??????-?????? ????????? ???????? ??????????> > > > ???????-???????????????? ???????????> > > > ???????-???????????????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ??????-?????? ????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????????? ????????? ??????? ? ????????????????????????-??????????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???????????? ? ???????????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??????????????????? ????????????????? ????????????? ???? ???????????????? ? > > > > ???? ?????????? ????????? ???????-???????????????? ????????????? ???????????????????? ??????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????????????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???? ?? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????????? ?????? ????????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???????? ????????????????? ????????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????????? ? ??? ? ?????????? ????????? ???????? ???? ???????-?????????? ????????????????????? ? > > > > ?????????????? ????-?????-???????-???????? ?????????????????????????????????? ????????????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ?> > > > ???????????? ????????? ?????????? ????? sanjay.kumar at mail.mcgill.ca ???????? ?????????? ? > > > > > > ???????? :- > > ??????????> > ??? ??? ?????????????> > ?????????> > From harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 23:44:40 2007 From: harshadehejia at HOTMAIL.COM (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 07 23:44:40 +0000 Subject: Annual Sanskrit Conference: Friday, April 27, 2007 Message-ID: <161227079416.23782.15021162940975322885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sanjay: You were to send me a short note on DRISTI by December 15. What happened? Harsha from Bombay, India > Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:26:57 -0500> From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA> Subject: Annual Sanskrit Conference: Friday, April 27, 2007> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk> > Annual Sanskrit Conference> > > > Friday, April 27, 2007> > > > Faculty of Religious Studies> > McGill University, Montreal, Canada> > > > You are invited to present papers in the third Annual Sanskrit Conference to be held at the Faculty of Religious Studies of McGill University on Friday, April 27, 2007. Presentations focusing on any aspect of religious or cultural traditions of India are welcomed. Interdisciplinary and comparative topics are also invited. Formal presentations should be no longer than 20 minutes; 10 minutes will be devoted to question and answer period. The language of the conference including the question and answer period will be Sanskrit. Requests for audiovisual equipment should be submitted at least a week before the conference date. > > > > The conference was inaugurated on May 4, 2005 to promote the use of Sanskrit as a language of research among modern scholars of Indian studies. It will serve as a forum in which various aspects of Indian religious and cultural traditions can be discussed in primary language of internal communication within the multi-lingual Hindu community until very recent time, and provide an intellectual atmosphere in which modern and traditional scholarships may be studied. > > > > Previous conferences have included participants from Canada, USA, and India.> > > > All are welcome to attend and participate in the seminar. For further information, please send inquiries to Sanjay Kumar at sanjay.kumar at mail.mcgill.ca . > > > > Sanjay Kumar> > Dr. R. Saraswati Sainath> > Shital Sharma> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > ?????? ???????? ????????????????> > ????-???????????????? ????????????????? ??????????> > ????-?????????????? ??????-?????? ????????? ???????? ??????????> > > > ???????-???????????????? ???????????> > > > ???????-???????????????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ??????????????? ??????????????????? ????????????? ???? ?????? ???????? ????????? ?????????????? ? ????????????????? ??????-?????? ????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????????????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ????????? ???????? ???????????? ????????? ??????? ? ????????????????????????-??????????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???????????? ? ???????????????? ????????????? ????????????????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ? ??????????????????? ????????????????? ????????????? ???? ???????????????? ? > > > > ???? ?????????? ????????? ???????-???????????????? ????????????? ???????????????????? ??????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????? ?????? ? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ???????????????????? ?????? ?????????? ?????????????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???? ?? ?????????? ???????? ??????????? ? ?????????? ?????? ????????????????????? ????????????????? ? ???????? ????????????????? ????????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????????? ? ??? ? ?????????? ????????? ???????? ???? ???????-?????????? ????????????????????? ? > > > > ?????????????? ????-?????-???????-???????? ?????????????????????????????????? ????????????? ????????? ?????? ??????? ?> > > > ???????????? ????????? ?????????? ????? sanjay.kumar at mail.mcgill.ca ???????? ?????????? ? > > > > > > ???????? :- > > ??????????> > ??? ??? ?????????????> > ?????????> > From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jan 31 12:42:00 2007 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 07:42:00 -0500 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? Message-ID: <161227079422.23782.6926549159814924216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have reasons I can't publish yet. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jan 31 14:20:38 2007 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 09:20:38 -0500 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? Message-ID: <161227079427.23782.1589244292961636973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks very much. Allen Thrasher >>> veerankp at GMAIL.COM 01/31/07 9:03 AM >>> dear friend, there is one prof. Jaishankar lal shaw at VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, dept of philosophy. On 1/31/07, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this > list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some > classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have > reasons I can't publish yet. > > Thanks, > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. > -- V.N.K.Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshan, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajsthan Sanskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK Wed Jan 31 15:16:50 2007 From: elizabeth.demichelis at ORIEL.OX.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 15:16:50 +0000 Subject: Two modern yoga questions Message-ID: <161227079432.23782.137732742220760926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Esteemed Colleagues, Would any of you have information about the following: 1) anyone working on, or academic/analytical publications about Swami Ramdev. I am especially interested in the 'yoga phenomenon' he has created, including its therapeutic aspects, but also more generally in his personal history, related institutional histories, documents (key primary texts or other type of statements), controversies, etc. 2) A question relating to ISKCON. Up to the early 1990s at least (based on my fieldwork), ISKCON used to promote interest in its work by offering 'yoga courses' to the public. As far as I'm aware, these were mainly in the form of lectures on the Gita primarily (I believe), maybe of other devotional texts too. Does anyone know whether this practice continues or not, and if so whether it has changed in any way. (I am fairly sure that the practice of bhakti and other forms of yoga would be ongoing within ISKCON; my query however is specifically about offering of 'yoga courses' as a way to interact with the public). Many thanks in advance, Elizabeth De Michelis Dr Elizabeth De Michelis Oriel College, Oriel Square, Oxford, UK OX1 4EW Tel: 01865-276550 email: elizabeth.demichelis at oriel.ox.ac.uk http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/modernyoga/ From ersand at HUM.KU.DK Wed Jan 31 14:33:41 2007 From: ersand at HUM.KU.DK (Erik Reenberg Sand) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 15:33:41 +0100 Subject: Conference on secularism Message-ID: <161227079430.23782.6735291443784290607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, This is to inform you that we are arranging a conference on comparative secularism in Copenhagen 28th May to 1st June 2007. The conference carries the title Secularism and Beyond - Comparative Perspectives deadline is 15th February. As this is a topic which has a great bearing on South Asia you may want to check out the announcement on http://www.ku.dk/satsning/Religion/sekularism_and_beyond/index.asp . In case you may want to sign up you shall contact the secretary of the conference, Anders Berg S?rensen, on abs at ifs.ku.dk. Regards Erik Reenberg Sand Associate professor History of Religions Section Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Jan 31 20:40:32 2007 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 15:40:32 -0500 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079447.23782.12458961373963852578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a listing of hundreds of South Asianists (not all classical indologists!), searchable by country, please go to SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet) at: and then click on the link for the International Directory of South Asia Scholars. The direct link is: Here you can do a search on, say, keyword, "Zealand" and find a range of scholars at Victoria Univ. Wellington, University of Otago, University of Cantergury, Massey Univ., Auckland, etc. Eachg entry has full contact information, as well as a description of their areas of work. David Magier Columbia and Editor of SARAI --On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:42 AM -0500 Allen W Thrasher wrote: > If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this > list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some > classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have > reasons I can't publish yet. > > Thanks, > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jan 31 21:04:44 2007 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 16:04:44 -0500 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? Message-ID: <161227079450.23782.4186396046556629344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, David. Allen >>> David Magier 01/31/07 3:40 PM >>> For a listing of hundreds of South Asianists (not all classical indologists!), searchable by country, please go to SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet) at: and then click on the link for the International Directory of South Asia Scholars. The direct link is: Here you can do a search on, say, keyword, "Zealand" and find a range of scholars at Victoria Univ. Wellington, University of Otago, University of Cantergury, Massey Univ., Auckland, etc. Eachg entry has full contact information, as well as a description of their areas of work. David Magier Columbia and Editor of SARAI --On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:42 AM -0500 Allen W Thrasher wrote: > If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this > list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some > classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have > reasons I can't publish yet. > > Thanks, > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Jan 31 15:23:02 2007 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 16:23:02 +0100 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? In-Reply-To: <965fdc5f0701310603x767ed881k5f59141e62d8e694@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <161227079435.23782.3076077869873322993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One link can be found here (additions and corrections always welcome!): http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#NZ (When on the Christchurch site, go to "Religious Studies" in the upper left corner.) On 31 Jan 2007 at 19:33, veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote: > dear friend, > there is one prof. Jaishankar lal shaw at VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, dept of > philosophy. > Could this be Jaishankar Shaw, and could he have returned to Calcutta in the meantime? (Just guessing.) Greetings Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Jan 31 23:26:15 2007 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 16:26:15 -0700 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? Message-ID: <161227079453.23782.8731036341890928247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/area/idsas/McLEAN,Malcolm.htm this is who i drew a blank on joanna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen W Thrasher" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Kiwi indologists or programs?? > Thanks, David. > > Allen > >>>> David Magier 01/31/07 3:40 PM >>> > > For a listing of hundreds of South Asianists (not all classical > indologists!), searchable by country, please go to SARAI (South Asia > Resource Access on the Internet) at: > > > > and then click on the link for the International Directory of South Asia > Scholars. The direct link is: > > > > Here you can do a search on, say, keyword, "Zealand" and find a range of > scholars at Victoria Univ. Wellington, University of Otago, University of > Cantergury, Massey Univ., Auckland, etc. Eachg entry has full contact > information, as well as a description of their areas of work. > > David Magier > Columbia > and > Editor of SARAI > > --On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:42 AM -0500 Allen W Thrasher > wrote: > >> If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this >> list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some >> classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have >> reasons I can't publish yet. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Allen >> >> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian >> South Asia Team, Asian Division >> Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 >> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> Washington, DC 20540-4810 >> tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov >> The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of >> Congress. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.18/662 - Release Date: 1/31/2007 3:16 PM From w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK Wed Jan 31 17:00:22 2007 From: w.t.douglas at ABDN.AC.UK (Will Tuladhar-Douglas) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 17:00:22 +0000 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079440.23782.158010824406305398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rick Weiss is at Victoria - works on Siddha traditions in S. India. -WBTD. On 31 Jan 2007, at 12:42, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand > on this list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there > with some classical component, would they please contact me off the > list? I have reasons I can't publish yet. > > Thanks, > > Allen _ _ __ ___ _____ ________ Will Tuladhar Douglas w.t.douglas at abdn.ac.uk From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 14:03:30 2007 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 19:33:30 +0530 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079425.23782.1904677194293011803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friend, there is one prof. Jaishankar lal shaw at VICTORIA UNIVERSITY, dept of philosophy. On 1/31/07, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > > If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this > list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some > classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have > reasons I can't publish yet. > > Thanks, > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. > -- V.N.K.Pandurangi Head, Dept of Darshan, Yoganandacharya Bhavan, Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajsthan Sanskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026. From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Wed Jan 31 17:03:47 2007 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 07 22:33:47 +0530 Subject: 12 Names of Surya In-Reply-To: <20070124102417.cqh5u723kkw44gk0@web.mail.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227079438.23782.4328288709623146585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hallo, The list of 12 names of Surya included in the Iyengar practice manual come from the list of synonyms given in Amarakosa, Sabdaratnavali etc. Regards K.Maheswaran Nair Dept. of Sanskrit University of Kerala Trivandrum, India. Quoting David Fiordalis : > Dear List members, > > A friend of mine who is an Iyengar Yoga instructor is interested in knowing > where the list of 12 names of Surya included in the Iyengar practice > manual may come from. > > They are: mitra, ravi, sUrya, bhAna, khaga, pUSan, hiraNyagarbha, marIci, > Aditya, savitR, arka, and bhAskara. > > Does anyone know a text that lists these particular 12 as the names of > Surya? I know there are other lists in the Mahabharata and elsewhere, > but so far as I'm aware these include some different members. > > My apologies for cross-posting. > > > David Fiordalis > > PhD Candidate > Dept of Asian Languages and Cultures > University of Michigan From mark.allon at ARTS.USYD.EDU.AU Wed Jan 31 20:12:25 2007 From: mark.allon at ARTS.USYD.EDU.AU (Mark Allon) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 07 07:12:25 +1100 Subject: Kiwi indologists or programs?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227079444.23782.13492887509657384462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Alan, Doug Osto, who works on Mahayana Buddhist texts, Tibetan and Sanskrit, is at Massey: Dr. Douglas Osto Religious Studies Programme School of History, Philosophy and Politics Massey University Private Bag 11 222 Palmerston North, New Zealand Tel: 64 6 356 9099 ex. 7608 Regards Mark Dr Mark Allon University of Sydney Australia >If there are any New Zealanders or scholars living in New Zealand on this list, or anyone knowing of any South Asian programs there with some classical component, would they please contact me off the list? I have reasons I can't publish yet. > > >