From s-sarbacker at NORTHWESTERN.EDU Wed Mar 1 03:34:58 2006 From: s-sarbacker at NORTHWESTERN.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 06 21:34:58 -0600 Subject: Yoga Consultation CFP Message-ID: <161227077518.23782.5735153693131621871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues, Following the deadline extension, we too would like to strongly encourage people to consider submitting a proposal. We will look at this year's response as an indication of what areas are drawing particular interest in the academic community with respect to the topic, so we hope there will be an enthusiastic response. Best Wishes, Stuart Sarbacker Northwestern University ***** Yoga in Theory and Practice Consultation Stuart Ray Sarbacker, Northwestern University, Department of Religion, 4-140 Crowe Hall, 1860 Campus DR, Evanston, IL 60208, USA; W: 847-491-2615; s-sarbacker at northwestern.edu. Christopher Key Chapple, Loyola Marymount University, Department of Theological Studies, Los Angeles, CA 90045, USA; W: 310-338- 2846; cchapple at lmu.edu. This new consultation seeks to elucidate historical and philosophical issues related to the theory and practice of yoga in its historical contexts and contemporary manifestations. We are interested in proposals that address thematic issues in the study of yoga and those that address issues of sectarian and religious identity associated with yoga. For 2006, we especially welcome proposals relating to the following topics: 1) Buddhist and Jaina yoga; 2) The "dark side" of the guru; 3) Meditation and ethics in yoga; 4) Late medieval to early modern yoga; and 5) Yoga and Tantra. We particularly welcome proposals that address issues such as the relationship between theory and practice in sectarian traditions and the pervasiveness of spiritual and religious ideologies in manifest or latent form within contemporary yoga. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 1 14:05:19 2006 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 06 09:05:19 -0500 Subject: review of Clay Sanskrit Library Message-ID: <161227077521.23782.1501570302029374317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The review below appeared in the March 3, 2006 online ed. of Chronicle of Higher Education Allen From the issue dated March 3, 2006Seduced by SanskritBy WILLIS G. REGIER When I was young and amorous, I fell in love with Sanskrit. I was unworthy, and I left it, but I don't regret our meeting. It was a glorious and passionate affair. I first met Sanskrit at the end of The Waste Land, reciting with Eliot "Datta," "Dayadhvam," "Damyata" ("give," "sympathize," "control") and "Shantih shantih shantih" ("peace peace peace"). I picked up the mantra "Om" from Hesse's Siddhartha and discovered "karuna" ("compassion") on Aldous Huxley's utopian Island. I saw that Sanskrit was smart, sophisticated, and out of my league. Yet I dared to hope. Sanskrit has long had a starry reputation. Schopenhauer vaunted the Vedas and Upanishads, Nietzsche the Laws of Manu. Emerson was carried away by the Bhagavad-Gita. I respected those guys but noted that they had been dependent on translations. I had to wonder: What about Sanskrit itself? What did it sound like? How did it feel on the lips and tongue? Hard to get, is what it is, and well protected. Its standard alphabet is a thicket of characters and ligatures. The literature is so phonic that words change spelling to adapt to sounds that come before and after. Nouns compound into words a line long. Ten classes of verbs throw off showers of participles. Difficulty was one of Sanskrit's attractions for me. In 1974 it lured me and 11 other undergraduate and graduate students to a seminar table at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, eager to get closer to it. In a week we were 10; in two weeks, six and faltering. Some lost heart at irregular conjugations, others were sunk by syntax, and one decided that his heart belonged to Japanese. By the time we finished simple fables, our dozen was down to three. We left flirtation far behind with Vedic, the most ancient Sanskrit, 4,000 years old. We worked through the Soma hymns of the Rig Veda, as if our souls depended on it. Soma was a god, who lived in a drink of the same name that gave worshipers visions (the ancestor of the soma of Huxley's Brave New World). We parsed, translated, and drank beer, lots of beer, trying every trick to relive old-time religion. The next spring, we leaped forward to a 12th-century AD erotic epic poem: Jaya-deva's Gita Govinda. Here was Krishna, another incarnation of the diety Vishnu, divinely sensual, in love with Radha: Punish me, lovely fool! Bite me with your cruel teeth! Chain me with your creeper arms! Crush me with your hard breasts! Angry goddess, don't weaken with joy! Still, devotion flickered, and I strayed * because I could court Sanskrit literature faster through translation. I grew dependent, like Nietzsche and Emerson. My own avatar appeared at just the right time: In 1973 the University of Chicago Press began to publish a complete translation of the magnificent Sanskrit epic Vyasa's Mahabharata. Volume 2 appeared in 1975, Volume 3 in 1978. Wendy Doniger brought out her selection of hymns, The Rig Veda: An Anthology, with Penguin in 1981. In 1984 Princeton University Press commenced a translation (still in progress, with the latest volume translated by Robert P. Goldman and Sally J. Sutherland Goldman) of the other great Sanskrit epic, the Ramayana of Valmiki. I might as well admit that deep down I still love Sanskrit. I have long consoled myself that further translations will eventually reconcile us. Now, it seems, love is once more within my grasp. Late last year, New York University Press launched the Clay Sanskrit Library, now at 15 volumes. The library bears the name of its guiding genius and financier, John Clay, a scholar-millionaire who studied Sanskrit at the University of Oxford, graduated with honors, then made a fortune by investing in Japan when Japanese business was moving into high-end engineering. In November 1999, Clay contacted Richard Gombrich, a professor emeritus of Sanskrit at Oxford, and proposed that they undertake a tremendous project. He envisioned 100 handsome books, every one a fresh translation of a Sanskrit classic. Clay wanted affordable editions that could be read with pleasure. Gombrich, who loved the idea, is now general editor of the series. What James Loeb did for the Latin and Greek classics, Clay intends to do for Sanskrit. "There's a new Bhagavad Gita every two weeks," Doniger told me, but the Clay series is "big news." The eminent Sanskrit scholar Sheldon I. Pollock told me that it is "the most important development in the popularization of Sanskrit studies in the West since their inception two centuries ago." Doniger has signed on to translate Harsha's plays; Pollock, who translated two volumes of the Princeton Ramayana, will contribute five volumes of other works. Clay and Gombrich have further enlisted other notable translators from Europe, Australia, and North America. The 15 volumes out to date lure like Loeb's, with translations that tempt you to try the originals. The Sanskrit text appears on the left page and an English translation on the right. To help matters further, the Sanskrit texts in the Clay books are accented and transliterated, and show word and compound divisions. The books line up on my shelf like bright Bodhisattvas ready to take tough questions or keep quiet company. They stake out a vast territory, with works from two millennia in multiple genres: aphorism, lyric, epic, theater, and romance. Why care about Sanskrit literature? It is candid about sex, appreciates the power of money, and confronts the duplicities of war and religion. Its indispensable word is "dharma" * duty, calling, or moral law. It is boisterous and fantastic, like the novels of John Barth, who has been praising Sanskrit fiction for decades. The Clay volumes will soon include three fifth-century works by Kalidasa, the most celebrated of Sanskrit poets. The first, already out, is his long poem, The Birth of Kumara (translated by David Smith), a court epic in which the war god Kumara is not yet born but is anticipated in the meeting and wedding of his parents, Uma and Shiva. Love, ascetism, eroticism, and spirituality all come together. Due soon are the shorter poem "The Cloud Messenger" (translated by Sir James Mallinson), which delves into the many moods of love, and the play The Recognition of Shakuntala (translated by Somadeva Vasudeva), which presents the wooing of a modest young woman by a mighty king. Isabelle Onians gives us especially good notes, the better for being plentiful. Her volume is Dandin's What Ten Young Men Did, an adventure book. A teenage prince suddenly disappears, and his nine friends scatter in all directions to look for him. When they reunite, each has an amazing story to tell. Mantra-Gupta, for example, recounts persuading a foolish old king to bathe in a lake to make himself young and handsome; then the youth kills the king and takes his place. Dharma is one thing, but success another. Vasudeva's translation of Kshemendra's The Grace of Guile (in the volume Three Satires) gives early proof that the Clay series will introduce works seldom seen on lists of Sanskrit classics. In this strange manual, Muladeva, a master thief, is hired to teach a young man how to get ahead. The first lesson is sanctimony; the second, greed; and so on through depravity, deception, and quackery. Only after those can virtue be appreciatively taught. The series also amply demonstrates that Sanskrit literature allows imagination to range. For an early sighting of a flying machine, look to the translation of Budhasvamin's The Emperor of the Sorcerers, translated by Mallinson. Other books introduce portions of the Sanskrit epics the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. The volumes of the Ramayana are reprinted under license from Princeton, which has itself announced but not yet scheduled three more volumes. At roughly half the price, the Clay volumes * so far Ramayana Book One: Boyhood (translated by Robert P. Goldman), Ramayana Book Two: Ayodhya (translated by Pollock), and Ramayana Book Four: Kishkindha (translated by Rosalind Lefeber) * are more likely to lure the shy. A fourth volume is due out soon. The Mahabharata is very deep and very long * longer than the Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Thebaid, Beowulf, The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, and even The Da Vinci Code combined. It has been often abridged and retold, and translated into English more or less in its entirety twice before, in the 19th century, first by K.M. Ganguli and then by M.N. Dutt. But for the aspiring lover, those translations can baffle as much as the Sanskrit original. Clay approached Chicago to license its translations of the Mahabharata, but Chicago declined. So Clay began his own. His Mahabharata starts in the middle of things, with the last quarter of the third book of the epic's 18 books. It is an inspired choice. Translated by William J. Johnson, the volume contains four distinct episodes, each important within the epic's internal machinery, and indicative of the boggling variety of Sanskrit literature. Here are the stories of Savitri, who brought her husband back from the dead; the virgin birth of Karna, son of the Sun; the trial-by-riddle of Prince Yudhisthira; and the Mahabharata's capsule version of the Ramayana. Meanwhile Chicago is pressing ahead with its translations. The Chicago Mahabharata began in 1973 as a project of J.A.B. van Buitenen, who proposed to translate all of it himself. He completed only five of the 18 books before he died, and the project stalled. Now a student of his, James L. Fitzgerald, has taken over the project. In 2004 he brought out a volume containing The Book of the Women and the first part of The Book of Peace, 850 pages of painstaking scholarship and fine-tuned translation. He has also lined up commitments from his own distinguished team to translate the remaining volumes. Which Mahabharata will finish first? Fitzgerald hopes that the Chicago set will be complete by 2012. Clay and NYU hope to beat that by two years. The Chicago set will have 10 copiously annotated volumes; the editors of the Clay series estimate that their set will need 32 compact volumes. The two projects are thus very different. In the last pages of "What is a Classic?," Sainte-Beuve imagined literary paradise. He saw Virgil, Horace, Montaigne, and others conversing on a hill, while Voltaire paced about impatiently. First among them all was Homer, "likest a god"; with him were Vyasa and Valmiki, the legendary authors of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, "so long ignored by us." Today excuses for ignorance are fast disappearing. As with true love, the seductions of Sanskrit do not fade with time. I still thrill at the pleasures that Sanskrit literature gives me. If you are looking for new passion, try something old. Sanskrit literature is coming to us in splendor. Willis G. Regier is director of the University of Illinois Press. He is editor of Book of the Sphinx (University of Nebraska Press, 2004) and of Masterpieces of American Indian Literature (re-issued by the University of Nebraska Press, 2005). A SELECTION OF RECENT TRANSLATIONS FROM SANSKRIT The Birth of Kumara, translated by David Smith (Clay Sanskrit Library, New York University Press, 2005) The first volume of translations of the poems of Kalidasa. *** The Mahabharata, Volume 7, edited and translated by James L. Fitzgerald (University of Chicago Press, 2004) This volume resurrects the Chicago edition of Vyasa's Mahabharata, begun in 1973 but dormant since 1981. In addition, the Clay Sanskrit Library has begun its own translations of the Mahabharata, starting in the middle with Book Three, translated by William J. Johnson, and Book Nine, translated by Justin Meiland (Clay Sanskrit Library, New York University Press, 2005). *** The Ramayana, Book One, edited and translated by Robert P. Goldman; Book Two, edited and translated by Sheldon I. Pollock (Book Three will be out shortly); Book Four, edited and translated by Rosalind Lefeber (Clay Sanskrit Library, New York University Press, 2005) This translation of the first parts of India's most beloved epic, by Valmiki, is licensed from the Princeton University Press and also includes the transliterated Sanskrit text. *** The Rig Veda: An Anthology: One Hundred and Eight Hymns, translated and annotated by Wendy Doniger (Penguin Books, 1981) Doniger's well-annotated translation of selected hymns gives a good idea of the Rig Veda, the taproot of Sanskrit literature. Penguin Classics has brought out a 2005 selection of her translations, The Rig Veda. *** What Ten Young Men Did, edited and translated by Isabelle Onians (Clay Sanskrit Library, 2005) The story by Dandin (sixth to seventh century) is a romp and indicative of Sanskrit fiction, in which hard facts and unfettered fantasy take turns. http://chronicle.com Section: The Chronicle Review Volume 52, Issue 26, Page B13 From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Mar 1 17:42:00 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 06 10:42:00 -0700 Subject: review of Clay Sanskrit Library Message-ID: <161227077523.23782.9894153611273705896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regier should have inlulded the most recent publication as well: Joel Tatelman (Editor & translator). The Heavenly Exploits: Buddhist Biographies From The Divyavadana. The Clay Sanskrit Library, 2005. Joanna Kirkpatrick =================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen W Thrasher" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:05 AM Subject: review of Clay Sanskrit Library The review below appeared in the March 3, 2006 online ed. of Chronicle of Higher Education Allen From the issue dated March 3, 2006Seduced by SanskritBy WILLIS G. REGIER When I was young and amorous, I fell in love with Sanskrit. I was unworthy, and I left it, but I don't regret our meeting. It was a glorious and passionate affair. I first met Sanskrit at the end of The Waste Land, reciting with Eliot "Datta," "Dayadhvam," "Damyata" ("give," "sympathize," "control") and "Shantih shantih shantih" ("peace peace peace"). I picked up the mantra "Om" from Hesse's Siddhartha and discovered "karuna" ("compassion") on Aldous Huxley's utopian Island. I saw that Sanskrit was smart, sophisticated, and out of my league. Yet I dared to hope. Sanskrit has long had a starry reputation. Schopenhauer vaunted the Vedas and Upanishads, Nietzsche the Laws of Manu. Emerson was carried away by the Bhagavad-Gita. I respected those guys but noted that they had been dependent on translations. I had to wonder: What about Sanskrit itself? What did it sound like? How did it feel on the lips and tongue? Hard to get, is what it is, and well protected. Its standard alphabet is a thicket of characters and ligatures. The literature is so phonic that words change spelling to adapt to sounds that come before and after. Nouns compound into words a line long. Ten classes of verbs throw off showers of participles. Difficulty was one of Sanskrit's attractions for me. In 1974 it lured me and 11 other undergraduate and graduate students to a seminar table at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, eager to get closer to it. In a week we were 10; in two weeks, six and faltering. Some lost heart at irregular conjugations, others were sunk by syntax, and one decided that his heart belonged to Japanese. By the time we finished simple fables, our dozen was down to three. We left flirtation far behind with Vedic, the most ancient Sanskrit, 4,000 years old. We worked through the Soma hymns of the Rig Veda, as if our souls depended on it. Soma was a god, who lived in a drink of the same name that gave worshipers visions (the ancestor of the soma of Huxley's Brave New World). We parsed, translated, and drank beer, lots of beer, trying every trick to relive old-time religion. The next spring, we leaped forward to a 12th-century AD erotic epic poem: Jaya-deva's Gita Govinda. Here was Krishna, another incarnation of the diety Vishnu, divinely sensual, in love with Radha: Punish me, lovely fool! Bite me with your cruel teeth! Chain me with your creeper arms! Crush me with your hard breasts! Angry goddess, don't weaken with joy! Still, devotion flickered, and I strayed * because I could court Sanskrit literature faster through translation. I grew dependent, like Nietzsche and Emerson. My own avatar appeared at just the right time: In 1973 the University of Chicago Press began to publish a complete translation of the magnificent Sanskrit epic Vyasa's Mahabharata. Volume 2 appeared in 1975, Volume 3 in 1978. Wendy Doniger brought out her selection of hymns, The Rig Veda: An Anthology, with Penguin in 1981. In 1984 Princeton University Press commenced a translation (still in progress, with the latest volume translated by Robert P. Goldman and Sally J. Sutherland Goldman) of the other great Sanskrit epic, the Ramayana of Valmiki. I might as well admit that deep down I still love Sanskrit. I have long consoled myself that further translations will eventually reconcile us. Now, it seems, love is once more within my grasp. Late last year, New York University Press launched the Clay Sanskrit Library, now at 15 volumes. The library bears the name of its guiding genius and financier, John Clay, a scholar-millionaire who studied Sanskrit at the University of Oxford, graduated with honors, then made a fortune by investing in Japan when Japanese business was moving into high-end engineering. In November 1999, Clay contacted Richard Gombrich, a professor emeritus of Sanskrit at Oxford, and proposed that they undertake a tremendous project. He envisioned 100 handsome books, every one a fresh translation of a Sanskrit classic. Clay wanted affordable editions that could be read with pleasure. Gombrich, who loved the idea, is now general editor of the series. What James Loeb did for the Latin and Greek classics, Clay intends to do for Sanskrit. "There's a new Bhagavad Gita every two weeks," Doniger told me, but the Clay series is "big news." The eminent Sanskrit scholar Sheldon I. Pollock told me that it is "the most important development in the popularization of Sanskrit studies in the West since their inception two centuries ago." Doniger has signed on to translate Harsha's plays; Pollock, who translated two volumes of the Princeton Ramayana, will contribute five volumes of other works. Clay and Gombrich have further enlisted other notable translators from Europe, Australia, and North America. The 15 volumes out to date lure like Loeb's, with translations that tempt you to try the originals. The Sanskrit text appears on the left page and an English translation on the right. To help matters further, the Sanskrit texts in the Clay books are accented and transliterated, and show word and compound divisions. The books line up on my shelf like bright Bodhisattvas ready to take tough questions or keep quiet company. They stake out a vast territory, with works from two millennia in multiple genres: aphorism, lyric, epic, theater, and romance. Why care about Sanskrit literature? It is candid about sex, appreciates the power of money, and confronts the duplicities of war and religion. Its indispensable word is "dharma" * duty, calling, or moral law. It is boisterous and fantastic, like the novels of John Barth, who has been praising Sanskrit fiction for decades. The Clay volumes will soon include three fifth-century works by Kalidasa, the most celebrated of Sanskrit poets. The first, already out, is his long poem, The Birth of Kumara (translated by David Smith), a court epic in which the war god Kumara is not yet born but is anticipated in the meeting and wedding of his parents, Uma and Shiva. Love, ascetism, eroticism, and spirituality all come together. Due soon are the shorter poem "The Cloud Messenger" (translated by Sir James Mallinson), which delves into the many moods of love, and the play The Recognition of Shakuntala (translated by Somadeva Vasudeva), which presents the wooing of a modest young woman by a mighty king. Isabelle Onians gives us especially good notes, the better for being plentiful. Her volume is Dandin's What Ten Young Men Did, an adventure book. A teenage prince suddenly disappears, and his nine friends scatter in all directions to look for him. When they reunite, each has an amazing story to tell. Mantra-Gupta, for example, recounts persuading a foolish old king to bathe in a lake to make himself young and handsome; then the youth kills the king and takes his place. Dharma is one thing, but success another. Vasudeva's translation of Kshemendra's The Grace of Guile (in the volume Three Satires) gives early proof that the Clay series will introduce works seldom seen on lists of Sanskrit classics. In this strange manual, Muladeva, a master thief, is hired to teach a young man how to get ahead. The first lesson is sanctimony; the second, greed; and so on through depravity, deception, and quackery. Only after those can virtue be appreciatively taught. The series also amply demonstrates that Sanskrit literature allows imagination to range. For an early sighting of a flying machine, look to the translation of Budhasvamin's The Emperor of the Sorcerers, translated by Mallinson. Other books introduce portions of the Sanskrit epics the Mahabharata and the Ramayana. The volumes of the Ramayana are reprinted under license from Princeton, which has itself announced but not yet scheduled three more volumes. At roughly half the price, the Clay volumes * so far Ramayana Book One: Boyhood (translated by Robert P. Goldman), Ramayana Book Two: Ayodhya (translated by Pollock), and Ramayana Book Four: Kishkindha (translated by Rosalind Lefeber) * are more likely to lure the shy. A fourth volume is due out soon. The Mahabharata is very deep and very long * longer than the Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Thebaid, Beowulf, The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, and even The Da Vinci Code combined. It has been often abridged and retold, and translated into English more or less in its entirety twice before, in the 19th century, first by K.M. Ganguli and then by M.N. Dutt. But for the aspiring lover, those translations can baffle as much as the Sanskrit original. Clay approached Chicago to license its translations of the Mahabharata, but Chicago declined. So Clay began his own. His Mahabharata starts in the middle of things, with the last quarter of the third book of the epic's 18 books. It is an inspired choice. Translated by William J. Johnson, the volume contains four distinct episodes, each important within the epic's internal machinery, and indicative of the boggling variety of Sanskrit literature. Here are the stories of Savitri, who brought her husband back from the dead; the virgin birth of Karna, son of the Sun; the trial-by-riddle of Prince Yudhisthira; and the Mahabharata's capsule version of the Ramayana. Meanwhile Chicago is pressing ahead with its translations. The Chicago Mahabharata began in 1973 as a project of J.A.B. van Buitenen, who proposed to translate all of it himself. He completed only five of the 18 books before he died, and the project stalled. Now a student of his, James L. Fitzgerald, has taken over the project. In 2004 he brought out a volume containing The Book of the Women and the first part of The Book of Peace, 850 pages of painstaking scholarship and fine-tuned translation. He has also lined up commitments from his own distinguished team to translate the remaining volumes. Which Mahabharata will finish first? Fitzgerald hopes that the Chicago set will be complete by 2012. Clay and NYU hope to beat that by two years. The Chicago set will have 10 copiously annotated volumes; the editors of the Clay series estimate that their set will need 32 compact volumes. The two projects are thus very different. In the last pages of "What is a Classic?," Sainte-Beuve imagined literary paradise. He saw Virgil, Horace, Montaigne, and others conversing on a hill, while Voltaire paced about impatiently. First among them all was Homer, "likest a god"; with him were Vyasa and Valmiki, the legendary authors of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, "so long ignored by us." Today excuses for ignorance are fast disappearing. As with true love, the seductions of Sanskrit do not fade with time. I still thrill at the pleasures that Sanskrit literature gives me. If you are looking for new passion, try something old. Sanskrit literature is coming to us in splendor. Willis G. Regier is director of the University of Illinois Press. He is editor of Book of the Sphinx (University of Nebraska Press, 2004) and of Masterpieces of American Indian Literature (re-issued by the University of Nebraska Press, 2005). A SELECTION OF RECENT TRANSLATIONS FROM SANSKRIT The Birth of Kumara, translated by David Smith (Clay Sanskrit Library, New York University Press, 2005) The first volume of translations of the poems of Kalidasa. *** The Mahabharata, Volume 7, edited and translated by James L. Fitzgerald (University of Chicago Press, 2004) This volume resurrects the Chicago edition of Vyasa's Mahabharata, begun in 1973 but dormant since 1981. In addition, the Clay Sanskrit Library has begun its own translations of the Mahabharata, starting in the middle with Book Three, translated by William J. Johnson, and Book Nine, translated by Justin Meiland (Clay Sanskrit Library, New York University Press, 2005). *** The Ramayana, Book One, edited and translated by Robert P. Goldman; Book Two, edited and translated by Sheldon I. Pollock (Book Three will be out shortly); Book Four, edited and translated by Rosalind Lefeber (Clay Sanskrit Library, New York University Press, 2005) This translation of the first parts of India's most beloved epic, by Valmiki, is licensed from the Princeton University Press and also includes the transliterated Sanskrit text. *** The Rig Veda: An Anthology: One Hundred and Eight Hymns, translated and annotated by Wendy Doniger (Penguin Books, 1981) Doniger's well-annotated translation of selected hymns gives a good idea of the Rig Veda, the taproot of Sanskrit literature. Penguin Classics has brought out a 2005 selection of her translations, The Rig Veda. *** What Ten Young Men Did, edited and translated by Isabelle Onians (Clay Sanskrit Library, 2005) The story by Dandin (sixth to seventh century) is a romp and indicative of Sanskrit fiction, in which hard facts and unfettered fantasy take turns. http://chronicle.com Section: The Chronicle Review Volume 52, Issue 26, Page B13 From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Wed Mar 1 19:06:50 2006 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 06 11:06:50 -0800 Subject: Vimzatikaa Message-ID: <161227077525.23782.5478445961466725101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In 1989 K Mimaki, M Tachikawa and A Yuyama published photos of the only known ms of Vasubandhu's Vimzatikaa. The editio princips was published in 1925 by S Levi, on the basis of copies made at his request; he did not have access to the original in making his edition, although he had seen it in Nepal. All subsequents editions, to my knowledge, have copied L, often with conjectural emendations. What I am wondering is if there is any published (or unpublished) collation of the now published palm-leaf ms. With apologies for cross-posting to Indology and H-Buddhism, J Silk -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies Director of South & Southeast Asian Languages Program UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310) 206-8235 fax: (310) 825-8808 silk (at) humnet.ucla.edu From s-sarbacker at NORTHWESTERN.EDU Thu Mar 2 21:49:15 2006 From: s-sarbacker at NORTHWESTERN.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker) Date: Thu, 02 Mar 06 15:49:15 -0600 Subject: Yoga Consultation CFP (part 2) Message-ID: <161227077527.23782.9110558050325856176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues, As a number of people have asked more more specifics as to our call for papers, I wanted to reiterate that the Yoga Consultation is a program unit within the American Academy of Religion, and the current call for papers is for panels at the AAR's Annual Meeting in Washington, D.C. in November. The previous deadline for submission was March 1st, which has been changed to March 7th. Submissions are to be done on-line through the OP3 system, which should save time for everyone. The call for papers for our unit and the link to the OP3 system can be found at: http://www.aarweb.org/annualmeet/2006/call/list-call.asp?PUNum=AARPU161 We would highly encourage people "on the fence" to submit a proposal, as we are trying to cast the net as wide as possible this year. Thanks so much for the enthusiastic response, and we look forward to reading the proposals. Best Wishes, -- Dr. Stuart Sarbacker Lecturer in Religion Director of Undergraduate Studies Department of Religion Northwestern University http://www.religion.northwestern.edu/faculty/sarbacker.html From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Mar 3 16:07:02 2006 From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 06 10:07:02 -0600 Subject: vidyAvRddha etc Message-ID: <161227077533.23782.1332870788654795843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Doctor Nair, I recently saw two of these terms occurring together in the Udyogaparvan: 5.139 vs. 53 of the Poona critical edition (in the context of Kar.na's response to K.r.s.na's appeal to him to witch sides on the eve of the war): vidyaav.rddhaa vayov.rddhaa.h k.satriyaa.h k.satriyar.sabha | v.rthaam.rtyu.m na kurviira.ms tvatk.rte madhusuudana || A quick search through some electronic texts I have also turned up the following, from Maitreyyupani.sad 2.24: dhanav.rddhaa vayov.rddhaa vidyaav.rddhaas tathaiva ca | te sarve j~naanav.rddhasya ki.mkaraa.h "si.syaki.mkaraa.h || I hope this helps. Best, Whitney Cox ---- Original message ---- >Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 19:34:02 +0500 >From: Maheswaran Nair >Subject: vidyAvRddha etc >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > >Hello, >Can anyone please tell me in which Sanskrit text the mention about >vidyAvRddha(jNAnavRddha), vayovRddha and dhanavRddha occurs? >Thanks in advance. >K.Maheswaran Nair >Dept. of Sanskrit >University of Kerala >India. From McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Mar 3 01:09:34 2006 From: McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 06 12:09:34 +1100 Subject: Biardeau's Le Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227077529.23782.13998584305972070928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends Could one of you learned folk please direct me to a review of M. Biardeau's Le Mahabharata: en recit fondateur de brahmanisme etc (2002)? With thanks and greetings McComas =============================== Dr McComas Taylor Centre for Asian Societies and Histories Faculty of Asian Studies The Australian National University ACTON ACT 0200 Tel: +61 2 6125 3179 Fax: +61 2 6125 8326 Email: mccomas.taylor at anu.edu.au Location: Room E4.26 Baldessin Precinct Building From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Fri Mar 3 14:34:02 2006 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Fri, 03 Mar 06 19:34:02 +0500 Subject: vidyAvRddha etc Message-ID: <161227077531.23782.17736029729463963965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Can anyone please tell me in which Sanskrit text the mention about vidyAvRddha(jNAnavRddha), vayovRddha and dhanavRddha occurs? Thanks in advance. K.Maheswaran Nair Dept. of Sanskrit University of Kerala India. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Mar 4 03:05:31 2006 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 06 03:05:31 +0000 Subject: Name of river in Kathiawar Message-ID: <161227077535.23782.14806843449870998877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Apologies for cross-posting] Dear Colleagues, Thanks for the suggestions about the dak.si.naa-patha. I have solved that matter but now I have another question. In Kathiawar, there is the town Bhavnagar on the coast. My map of India shows a river runs through that town. Further upstream that river has two tributaries, one of which has a small town Vallabhapur on its banks. Could somebody with local knowledge or a better map tell what this river is called -- both the tributary and the main river at Bhavnagar. I'm doing research with a specific text which may give for a possible name of Vallabhi before it became famous -- unfortunately the text is only in Chinese and Tibetan versions. best wishes, Stephen Hodge From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Sat Mar 4 03:08:45 2006 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 06 08:08:45 +0500 Subject: vidyAvRddha etc Message-ID: <161227077537.23782.11347789674884277865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Whitney Cox, Thanks for giving the reference. K.Maheswaran Nair ----- Original Message ----- From: Whitney Cox Date: Friday, March 3, 2006 9:37 pm Subject: Re: vidyAvRddha etc > Dear Doctor Nair, > > I recently saw two of these terms occurring together in the > Udyogaparvan: 5.139 vs. 53 of the Poona critical edition (in > the context of Kar.na's response to K.r.s.na's appeal to him > to witch sides on the eve of the war): > > vidyaav.rddhaa vayov.rddhaa.h k.satriyaa.h k.satriyar.sabha | > v.rthaam.rtyu.m na kurviira.ms tvatk.rte madhusuudana || > > A quick search through some electronic texts I have also > turned up the following, from Maitreyyupani.sad 2.24: > > dhanav.rddhaa vayov.rddhaa vidyaav.rddhaas tathaiva ca | > te sarve j~naanav.rddhasya ki.mkaraa.h "si.syaki.mkaraa.h || > > I hope this helps. > > Best, > Whitney Cox > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 19:34:02 +0500 > >From: Maheswaran Nair > >Subject: vidyAvRddha etc > >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > > >Hello, > >Can anyone please tell me in which Sanskrit text the > mention about > >vidyAvRddha(jNAnavRddha), vayovRddha and dhanavRddha occurs? > >Thanks in advance. > >K.Maheswaran Nair > >Dept. of Sanskrit > >University of Kerala > >India. > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Sun Mar 5 21:31:40 2006 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 06 15:31:40 -0600 Subject: E-mail Message-ID: <161227077539.23782.9844700946259821100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know whether the Oriental Institute, Baroda, has an e-mail address? Thanks. Patrick From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Mar 5 23:17:41 2006 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 06 18:17:41 -0500 Subject: Name of river in Kathiawar In-Reply-To: <001501c63f38$92b5bc20$6c684e51@zen> Message-ID: <161227077542.23782.17121766941907093787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear stephen, Vallabhi was the name of the Port in Bhavanagar. Kalunbhar, Shatrunjayi and Malan are the rivers in and around Bhavnagar. I am not sure if they have waters flowing now or whether they are dry. Shatrunjayi is by Shatrunjaya Hill (Palitana). This is just based on memory associated with the place, and is not substantiated with any geaographic or historical sources. Bindu Quoting Stephen Hodge : > [Apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear Colleagues, > > Thanks for the suggestions about the dak.si.naa-patha. I have > solved that > matter but now I have another question. In Kathiawar, there is > the town > Bhavnagar on the coast. My map of India shows a river runs > through that > town. Further upstream that river has two tributaries, one of > which has a > small town Vallabhapur on its banks. Could somebody with local > knowledge or > a better map tell what this river is called -- both the tributary > and the > main > river at Bhavnagar. I'm doing research with a specific text > which may give > for a possible name of Vallabhi before it became famous -- > unfortunately the > text is only in Chinese and Tibetan versions. > > best wishes, > Stephen Hodge > > From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Mar 5 23:27:59 2006 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 06 18:27:59 -0500 Subject: E-mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077544.23782.1388679314401163924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patrick, I would try contacting the Vice Chnacellor of MSUniversity, Vadodara. His email is: manojsoni at msubaroda.ac.in Bindu Quoting Patrick Olivelle : > Does anyone know whether the Oriental Institute, Baroda, has an > e-mail address? > Thanks. > > Patrick > > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Mar 6 14:24:50 2006 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 06 08:24:50 -0600 Subject: E-mail In-Reply-To: <000f01c640cb$e882e8f0$a8c809c0@ifpindia.org> Message-ID: <161227077548.23782.11510865834962214769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all who sent me the e-mail address to individuals at the Oriental Institute, Baroda. Patrick From deviprasad at IFPINDIA.ORG Mon Mar 6 03:13:10 2006 From: deviprasad at IFPINDIA.ORG (Deviprasad) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 06 08:43:10 +0530 Subject: E-mail Message-ID: <161227077546.23782.5444441438274458014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respect Patrick, Good Morning. You can write to Mukund Wadekar, the Director of MS Oriental Research Institute, Baroda. His ID mlwadekar at hotmail.com with best wishes yours deviprasad Deviprasad Mishra Research Assistant French Institute, # 11 Saint Louis Street P. B - 33, Pondicherry 605 001 Ph: +91-413-2331307/2334168 Cell - 09443068996 Fax: +91-413 2339534 www.ifpindia.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Olivelle" To: Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:01 AM Subject: E-mail > Does anyone know whether the Oriental Institute, Baroda, has an e-mail address? > Thanks. > > Patrick > > > From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Mon Mar 6 15:33:21 2006 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 06 09:33:21 -0600 Subject: Bibliography Message-ID: <161227077550.23782.8201916377512532910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends: I am trying to get the full bibliography of an article by V. Raghavan published in 1968 and dealing with Bhaskara's commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. If any of you can help me with the title, journal, page numbers, I'd be most grateful. Thanks. Patrick From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Mon Mar 6 15:42:18 2006 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 06 16:42:18 +0100 Subject: Bibliography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077552.23782.17257167384401100722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Bhaaskara's Giitaabhaa.sya" by V. Raghavan was published in the Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde S?dasiens 12-13 - Erich Frauwallner Festschrift, 1968, pp. 281-294 and republished in Dr. V. Raghavan Commemoration Volume (Selected articles of the Late Dr. V. Raghavan on the Epics & Puraa.nas), ed. S.S. Janaki, N. Gangadharan & R.S. Bhattacharya, Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1991, pp. 398-413 >Dear Friends: > >I am trying to get the full bibliography of an article by V. Raghavan >published in 1968 and dealing with Bhaskara's commentary on the >Bhagavad Gita. If any of you can help me with the title, journal, >page numbers, I'd be most grateful. Thanks. > >Patrick Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve BELGIUM Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 or 58 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) E-mail: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Mar 6 18:24:53 2006 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 06 Mar 06 18:24:53 +0000 Subject: Name of river in Kathiawar Message-ID: <161227077554.23782.14305264477164201333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Thank you to all those who replied on and of list to my hydronyn enquiry -- and also to my earlier query about the dak.si.naa-patha. Just one final question for Bindu -- how is the Malan written in devanagari ? Does it have long or short "a"s ? Many thanks, Stephen Hodge From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Mar 7 12:55:43 2006 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 06 06:55:43 -0600 Subject: Bibliography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077558.23782.13825452735663950386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everyone for being so helpful in getting the details of Raghavan's article. Patrick From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 7 12:05:04 2006 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 06 12:05:04 +0000 Subject: Bibliography In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077556.23782.14666662208706165724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also: Raghavan, V. `The Upadesasahasri of Sankaracarya and the mutual chronology of Sankaracarya and Bhaskara', Wiener Zeitschrift fûr die Kunde Süd- und Ostasiens, 11 (1967), 137-139. NB that one of the two surviving fragments of Bhaskara's commentary is in the Wellcome Library in London (library.wellcome.ac.uk). The fragments only partially overlap. Best, Dominik On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Christophe Vielle wrote: > "Bhaaskara's Giitaabhaa.sya" by V. Raghavan was published in the Wiener > Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde S?dasiens 12-13 - Erich Frauwallner Festschrift, > 1968, pp. 281-294 > and republished in Dr. V. Raghavan Commemoration Volume (Selected articles > of the Late Dr. V. Raghavan on the Epics & Puraa.nas), ed. S.S. Janaki, N. > Gangadharan & R.S. Bhattacharya, Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1991, > pp. 398-413 > > >> Dear Friends: >> >> I am trying to get the full bibliography of an article by V. Raghavan >> published in 1968 and dealing with Bhaskara's commentary on the >> Bhagavad Gita. If any of you can help me with the title, journal, >> page numbers, I'd be most grateful. Thanks. >> >> Patrick > > > Dr. Christophe Vielle > Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > Institut orientaliste > Place Blaise Pascal 1 > B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve > BELGIUM > Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 or 58 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) > E-mail: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be > From Scharf at BROWN.EDU Wed Mar 8 02:41:48 2006 From: Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 06 21:41:48 -0500 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: <005b01c63b0f$a4456f80$9ab7fea9@skknet.net> Message-ID: <161227077561.23782.3054928736818065141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I believe Plamen attempted to point out 25.2.06 Given the premises:in A 1. Wherever there is smoke there is fire 2. There's smoke on the mountain It is a deduction, not induction, to conclude 3. There is fire on the mountain. This is no less a deduction than in B 1. All men are mortal 2 Socrates is a man Therefore 3 Socrates is mortal To establish the major premise in B or the vyApti in A is another matter. Induction is involved in establishing a vyApti and is objected to on these grounds by, for example, the Carvaka, as being only probable, not universal. The same charge could be laid against B1. If it is argued that B1 is universal because it is an analytic statement rather than inductive, a similar argument could be put forward with regard to 1 by defining smoke as that which is produced by fire. If it is admitted that B1 requires verification just as A1 is admitted in the Indian arena, the same sort of reasoning from anvaya and vyatireka would be used. One could for instancce put forward the counterexample to B1, of Yuddhisthira, who obtained heaven with his body. -- ************************************************** Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept Brown University PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/Scharf/ http://sanskritlibrary.org/ ************************************************** From Scharf at BROWN.EDU Wed Mar 8 03:31:22 2006 From: Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 06 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit grad student fellowship summer and fall Message-ID: <161227077563.23782.704795380185776012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Please bring the attached fellowship to the notice of qualified graduate students and encourage them to apply. Thank you. Sincerely, Peter Scharf Sanskrit graduate student Summer and fall fellowship The Sanskrit Library Project at Brown University invites graduate students with expertise in Sanskrit, and comfort working with data files to apply for a fellowship for the summer and fall to join an NSF-funded project to develop an internet-based digital Sanskrit library. The project integrates Sanskrit digital archives, digital lexica, and linguistic software in a richly inter-linked environment to facilitate philological and linguistic research. The fellowship provides a stipend of $1,650/mo for two months during the summer and four and a half months beginning September 1, as well as tuition for one course, and the graduate student health fee in the fall semester. Particularly desirable skills include experience with Sanskrit lexicography and grammar, digital data files, and computational methods. Interested persons are requested to send a letter of application, c.v., relevant papers, and two recommendations to Peter Scharf, Department of Classics, Brown University, PO Box 1856, Providence, RI 02912, USA by April 1. Application materials may be emailed to scharf at brown.edu. -- ************************************************** Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept Brown University PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/Scharf/ http://sanskritlibrary.org/ ************************************************** From rhayes at UNM.EDU Wed Mar 8 05:50:26 2006 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 06 22:50:26 -0700 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077565.23782.8998497664191173117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What Peter M. Scharf wrote on the Indian inference schema (which I resist calling a syllogism) is exactly right (or at least is in exact agreement with what I believe---we could both be wrong). If the classical Indian schema is taken as a whole, that is, if how one arrives at vy?pti is taken into account, then the schema as a whole cannot yield the certainty of a deductive argument. It can yield only a probable (but perhaps highly reasonable) conclusion. That it is fallible is its greatest strength, I would dare to opine. But that is perhaps a matter of taste. I thrive on uncertainty and get overcome with nausea when people start having fits of certainty about things. The only cure I have found for imagined certainty is a healthy dose of mockery. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From rhayes at UNM.EDU Wed Mar 8 16:46:38 2006 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 06 09:46:38 -0700 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: <003101c642ac$7e78ec60$9ab7fea9@skknet.net> Message-ID: <161227077569.23782.16101961761756746088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 13:33 +0100, Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > I believe the way we arrive at the universal (and apodictic) character > of the invariable concomitance (vyapti) has nothing to do with the > Indian inferential mechanism It could be argued that the use of positive and negative examples is to give a precedent for seeing an instance of the pak?a with an instance of the hetu, and to give a precedence for seeing both absent at the same time and the same place. The presence of the examples, if it has any purpose at all, seems to be to give a basis for believing that there is a vy?pti. The proposition that there is a vy?pti is synthetic, not analytic. When unpacks the full implications of anvaya and vyatireka, it amounts to saying "In every instance observed so far, the hetu has been present only when the pak?a has not been absent." This leaves open the possibility, as Peter observed, that future observations may well deviate from the past. It is not part of the very definition of smoke that it is accompanied by fire; it has simply been observed so far that smoky loci and also fiery. This makes the inferential schema one that yields high probability but not certainty. So the inference schema is much like Hume's famous example of the sun rising tomorrow; it is by no means certain that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that the sun will probably rise tomorrow is how the smart money bets. There are, of courses, cases cited in Indian philosophy of lines of reasoning that involve analytic claims. We have the famous example of the barren woman's son. By definition a barren woman has no children. Somewhat more interesting is the example of the horned hare. I have heard animated arguments among Tibetans over whether it is an analytic truth or a synthetic truth that hares have no horns. If anyone settles that dispute definitively, I'll let you know. As an aside, here in New Mexico a favorite joke to pull on visitors is to tell them that somewhere out in the arid foothills there is a huge jack rabbit that has antlers. It's called a jackalope. Tourists are advised to keep their eyes open for them. Once when a Tibetan geshe was visiting New Mexico, his friend bought a statue of a jackalope in a tourist shop and said "See, Geshe-la, this proves that it's not impossible for a rabbit to have horns. One can imagine such a thing. If one can imagine something, it's not a logical impossibility. So it can't be true by definition that rabbits do not have horns. It's a synthetic truth." The geshe was unimpressed. He said "That's not a rabbit. If it were, it would not have horns. It's a jackalope." -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From srangan at YORKU.CA Wed Mar 8 17:48:50 2006 From: srangan at YORKU.CA (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 06 12:48:50 -0500 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: <1141836399.4825.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <161227077572.23782.9580562578885625475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members This debate reminds me of the controversy in the philosophy of science in the twentieth century as to whether the hypothetico-inductive model put forward by people such as Carl Hempel was genuinely deductive, or whether it was inductive. According to this model of science, scientists formulate hypotheses, which then constitute a universally quantified premise (much like the first premise of the standard syllogism) in an argument with standard deductive properties, and the goal then is to find instances in reality that contradict the deductive implications of the argument, thus falsifying the hypothesis. Thus, consider the hypothesis "the sun rises every day." According to the hypothetico-deductive model, we'd sub this into modus ponens, p -> q (if p then q) p .'. q (therefore q) where p is something like "the sun rises every day" and q would be some observational consequence, like "the sun rises on Tuesday". Find an instance of the sun not rising on Tuesday, and one would be licensed to make the following modus tollens: p -> q ~q (not q) .'. ~p (therefore not p) Every one could agree that modus ponens and modus tollens is deductive, but the question was whether the hypothetico-deductive model, which supplies premises with hypotheses is deductive. Few doubted that it was. But the critics always pointed out that hypotheses rarely come to people in a flash (though Hemple liked to think this) and they were usually the result of some type of inductive generalization. So, which is it? Could the argument over whether it is deductive or inductive be merely a word game, where each measures the argument in a different way (some counting the process of hypothesis formation as part of the inference, while others include it outside)? Doesn't this mirror the argument over whether the vyapti is part of the Nyaya inference or not? I don't think it's a word game, but rather has to do with how we define deductive arguments. Of course, the canonical criterion of a deductive argument is that it has an argument form whose premises cannot all be true while the conclusion is false. However, invalid deductive arguments are, on the normal understanding, deductive arguments that fail this criterion. To complicate things, inductive arguments seem to fail the criterion of deductivety, but seem ok altogether. In other words, both inductive arguments and invalid deductive arguments fail to preserve the truth of a conclusion along all true premises in some distribution of truth values across atomic propositions. So, then, the question is, how can we tell the difference between an invalid deductive argument and an inductive argument? This question always comes up in a critical thinking class, for it is not obvious how in real life we are to treat arguments that fail the test for deductivety. If they are invalid deductive arguments, they're bad arguments. If they're invalid arguments, then they may be good arguments of a different kind. And the answer to the question is: it depends upon how the authors of the argument regard their argument. Thus, I suggest to determine whether the Nyaya scheme is deductive or inductive, we need to not evaluate it from the perspective of our ideal of deductivity, but from how they regarded their arguments. Did they see it as yeilding apodictic necessity? Or did they regard it in some other fashion. My suspicion is the former, but I'm no expert in Nyaya logic. Best, Shyam (Ranganathan) Department of Philosophy York University, Toronto From srangan at YORKU.CA Wed Mar 8 18:07:58 2006 From: srangan at YORKU.CA (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 06 13:07:58 -0500 Subject: Indian Syllogism -- correction In-Reply-To: <1141840130.440f19027677e@mymail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <161227077574.23782.2599218716526148357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members Forgive me. My email program sent my message before I finished checking it. I've corrected the errors bellow. The most important corrections are: (a) the criterion of a *valid* deductive argument is that the conclusion cannot be false while the premises are all true (b)if an argument fails the criterion of valid deductivity, it may either be an invalid deductive argument (which is a bad argument) or a inductive argument (which may be a good argument) Sincere apologies Shyam Quoting Shyam Ranganathan : Dear list members This debate reminds me of the controversy in the philosophy of science in the twentieth century as to whether the hypothetico-inductive model put forward by people such as Carl Hempel was genuinely deductive, or whether it was inductive. According to this model of science, scientists formulate hypotheses, which then constitute a universally quantified premise (much like the first premise of the standard syllogism) in an argument with standard deductive properties, and the goal then is to find instances in reality that contradict the deductive implications of the argument, thus falsifying the hypothesis. Thus, consider the hypothesis "the sun rises every day." According to the hypothetico-deductive model, we'd sub this into modus ponens, p -> q (if p then q) p .'. q (therefore q) where p is something like "the sun rises every day" and q would be some observational consequence, like "the sun rises on Tuesday". Find an instance of the sun not rising on Tuesday, and one would be licensed to make the following modus tollens: p -> q ~q (not q) .'. ~p (therefore not p) Every one could agree that modus ponens and modus tollens is deductive, but the question was whether the hypothetico-deductive model, which supplies premises with hypotheses is deductive. Few doubted that it was. But the critics always pointed out that hypotheses rarely come to people in a flash (though Hemple liked to think this) and they were usually the result of some type of inductive generalization. So, which is it? Could the argument over whether it is deductive or inductive be merely a word game, where each measures the argument in a different way (some counting the process of hypothesis formation as part of the inference, while others include it outside)? Doesn't this mirror the argument over whether the vyapti is part of the Nyaya inference or not? [Correction here:] I don't think it's a word game, but rather has to do with how we define deductive arguments. Of course, the canonical criterion of a [*valid*] deductive argument is that it has an argument form whose premises cannot all be true while the conclusion is false. However, invalid deductive arguments are, on the normal understanding, deductive arguments that fail this criterion. To complicate things, inductive arguments seem to fail the criterion of deductivety, but seem ok altogether. In other words, both inductive arguments and invalid deductive arguments fail to preserve the truth of a conclusion with all true premises in some distribution of truth values across atomic propositions. So, then, the question is, how can we tell the difference between an invalid deductive argument and an inductive argument? [Correction here:] This question always comes up in a critical thinking class, for it is not obvious how in real life we are to treat arguments that fail the test for deductivety. If they are invalid deductive arguments, they're bad arguments. If they're [*inductive*] arguments, then they may be good arguments of a different kind. And the answer to the question is: it depends upon how the authors of the argument regard their argument. [Correction:] Thus, I suggest to determine whether the Nyaya scheme is deductive or inductive, we need to not evaluate it from the perspective of our ideal of deductivity, but from how they [the Nyaya philosophers ] regarded their arguments. Did they see it as yeilding apodictic necessity? Or did they regard it in some other fashion. My suspicion is the former, but I'm no expert in Nyaya logic. Best, Shyam (Ranganathan) Department of Philosophy York University, Toronto From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG Wed Mar 8 12:33:24 2006 From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 06 13:33:24 +0100 Subject: Indian Syllogism Message-ID: <161227077567.23782.5305129548770043798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe the way we arrive at the universal (and apodictic) character of the invariable concomitance (vyapti) has nothing to do with the Indian inferential mechanism, in the same way as the way we arrive at the universality of "All men are mortal" is not part of the Aristotelian syllogism. Our certitude that the major premise is true is arrived at by means of practice, experience (both ordinary and extraordinary), or authority. There is no whatsoever difference between Universal affirmative: All men are mortal Socrates is a man .:. Socrates is mortal and All dhumavan paksas are vahniman Parvato dhumavan .:. Parvato vahniman Both are perfect examples of deductive reasoning. Particular affirmative: Some mortals are men (the condition being zoon politikon) Socrates is a mortal (zoon politikon) .:. Socrates is a man and Some vahniman paksas are dhumavan (the upadhi being wet indhanam) Parvato vahniman (where the fuel is wet) .:. Parvato dhumavan Best regards, Plamen Indian Logic Forum - http://nyaya.darsana.org Nyaya Experts Registry - http://www.darsana.org/experts.html From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Mar 9 02:14:16 2006 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 06 21:14:16 -0500 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks Message-ID: <161227077576.23782.8735173097713376208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HINDUTVA GROUPS DEFEATED IN THEIR ATTEMPT TO SAFFRONIZE TEXTBOOKS IN CALIFORNIA Sacramento, California, March 8, 2006, 5:30 p.m. PST The intense struggle over the presentation of ancient Indian history in school books in California has ended this afternoon at 5:30 p.m. PST, with total victory over the right wing and sub-sectarian Hindutva foundations, the so-called Vedic Foundation (VF) and the Hindu Education Foundation (HEF). The California State Board of Education (SBE) voted unanimously to overturn the sectarian and politically motivated distortions pushed through by the two obscurant Hindutva foundations during an earlier phase of the review process for history textbooks. On February 27, a sub-committee of the SBE had also voted unanimously to overturn a majority of the disputed changes. This decision is a victory for Californians, particularly for Indian Americans, and by implication for all Americans and all others worldwide who are interested in the historically correct depiction of Indian history. More than a hundred of South Asian scholars from across the United States and more than fifty American and international Indologists had written to the Board, protesting the changes proposed by the Hindutva groups. The SBE had also received important scholarly input from South Asian Studies faculty (Title VI) as well as other Indologists. In addition, many Indian American community organizations and many private individuals have been working diligently to ensure that ahistorical and sectarian content proposed by Hindutva groups does not infect California school textbooks. We must wholeheartedly applaud the courage of various individuals and community organizations, who in spite of being constantly harassed, abused and threatened by various Hindutvavadins, stood their ground and put in a tremendous effort to defend the educational futures of their children. Today, all involved in fighting for this goal have expressed their admiration of the State Board for rejecting the most egregious edits proposed by the Hindutva groups that attempted to sanitize caste and gender oppression. The victory over the machinations of the VF & HEF is especially poignant as it has been achieved on International Women's day, March 8th. We must applaud the State Board for voting on the side of historical accuracy, and for not caving to the intimidation and blackmail tactics of HEF and VF who, failing to obtain any academic or other scholarly support, have now turned to a politically connected law firm and are issuing threats of legal action in a desperate attempt to intimidate the Board of Education, and to force the Board to divert precious resources that could have gone towards the education of California school children. We also must commend the SBE staff for having patiently considered a wide variety of views from community groups, as well as from scholars. With the changes recommended by the SBE, the textbooks are a vast improvement over earlier textbooks and are now largely free of errors. We must note with appreciation the stance taken by Ms. Ruth Green, President of the History-Social Science Sub-committee, that the textbooks should represent the plurality of scholarly opinion. We must also thank the community organizations such as Friends of South Asia (FOSA), Federation of Tamil Sangams of North America (FeTNA), various Dalit organizations (Ambedkar.org, New Republic India, Dalit Freedom Network, Dalit Sikh temples), Coalition Against Communalism (CAC), Indian American Public Education Advisory Council (IPAC). We must especially commend the representatives of Dalit organizations, who urged the SBE to restore references to Dalits and the Caste System, which had been deleted from the textbooks on HEF's and VF's recommendations. Individual Dalits and their organizations have suffered the crassest abuse and vituperation from the self-styled representatives of the Hindu Indo-American community. Their eloquent and moving testimonies which outlined the daily depredations that Dalits face was crucial as it laid bare the hollowness and dishonesty of the HEF and VF agenda. The combined efforts against the attempts by Hindutva groups to distort California's textbooks have resulted in a crushing defeat of these obscurantist views. After a long struggle, historical accuracy and a balanced depiction of life in ancient India has prevailed, not the sugar-coated version of a hoary, mythical Golden Age that never was. In gratitude to all involved, Michael Witzel See: item 19 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ ________________________________________________________ If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. (Qu'on me donne six lignes ?crites de la main du plus honn?te homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.) Cardinal Richelieu, Minister of Louis XIII (Quoted: January 1641, in "Mirame") ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 direct line: 496 2990 < http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/> From rhayes at UNM.EDU Thu Mar 9 18:02:17 2006 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 06 11:02:17 -0700 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: <1141840130.440f19027677e@mymail.yorku.ca> Message-ID: <161227077578.23782.17098668743968565711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2006-03-08 at 12:48 -0500, Shyam Ranganathan wrote: > So, which is it? Could the argument over whether it is deductive or inductive be > merely a word game, where each measures the argument in a different way (some > counting the process of hypothesis formation as part of the inference, while > others include it outside)? Doesn't this mirror the argument over whether the > vyapti is part of the Nyaya inference or not? Yes, you have captured the debate precisely. Like you, I don't think this is a word game at all. Over the years, however, I have noticed a slight shift in the definition of inductive argument. When I was a young pup, I was taught that an inductive argument is one in which a generalization is formed from particular observations. Now, as an old dog, I teach the young pups in my classes that an inductive argument is one that is not deductive in nature, but one that nevertheless offers a good reason to believe a conclusion on the basis of evidence. Deductive arguments are valid or invalid; and valid arguments are sound or unsound. Inductive arguments, on the other hand are strong or weak. When I first started writing about Buddhist logic, I was using such terms as "valid" and "sound" to refer to arguments that the Buddhists called "good" or "correct" (samyak). At the time I was taking a graduate course in philosophy of logics, and my professor, Hans Herzberger, warned me off using the terminology of deductive logic when writing of Dign?ga. He demonstrated that an argument considered "correct" by Dign?ga could still yield a false conclusion. The failures all stemmed from making new empirical discoveries. For example, if a North American has repeatedly observed that all mammals give live birth to their young, it would be considered a "correct" argument to conclude when one sees a mammal, that the animal gives live birth to its offspring. If one were then to visit Australia and see one of the mammals there than lays eggs, one's previously "correct" argument would yield a false conclusion. This is something no deductive argument can do. (Do Australian human beings give live birth or lay eggs? Never having been south of the equator, I remain agnostic on this matter.) > To complicate things, inductive arguments seem to fail the criterion > of deductivety, but seem ok altogether. Right. Almost all the arguments that we make in daily life are, in fact, pretty much like the canonical arguments used in classical India. The classical Indian inferential schema works beautifully in practical life. Like life itself, it has risks, but one learns to minimize them by careful empirical observation. The deductive argument, on the other hand, is rather barren and uninteresting. It works only when the major premise is analytic. How often are we called upon in real life to make inferences about the marital status of bachelors? > Thus, I suggest to determine whether the Nyaya scheme is deductive or inductive, > we need to not evaluate it from the perspective of our ideal of deductivity, but > from how they regarded their arguments. Did they see it as yeilding apodictic > necessity? Or did they regard it in some other fashion. My suspicion is the > former, but I'm no expert in Nyaya logic. For a long time I have tried to discuss Indian inferential schemata in their own terms. One imposes unrealistic expectations on them when they are called deductive. They just end up looking like failed deductive arguments. A hundred years ago or so this "failure" was seen by some as evidence that the philosophers of classical India were substandard logicians. If one sees Ny?ya as trying to present an Aristotelian syllogism, then the Ny?ya inferential scheme ends up looking like a rather poor, at at least clumsy, attempt at a syllogism. If, on the other hand, one looks at what the Indians were actually trying to do in anum?na theory, it turns out they were doing an excellent job at practical reasoning. I see it, therefore, as a practice in charity of interpretation to see the classical Indians as offering something more like Peirce's abductive logic (or inference to the best explanation) than something like mathematical deduction or Boolean algebra. Perhaps this is caving in to political correctness of some kind, but I do think there is rather more at stake here than politesse. (I hope so; I'm a complete failure at being polite.) -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes From srangan at YORKU.CA Thu Mar 9 18:53:52 2006 From: srangan at YORKU.CA (Shyam Ranganathan) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 06 13:53:52 -0500 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: <1141927337.4431.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <161227077580.23782.1167682602672549871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, and Prof. Hayes Prof. Hayes wrote: > When I first started writing about Buddhist logic, I was using such > terms as "valid" and "sound" to refer to arguments that the Buddhists > called "good" or "correct" (samyak). At the time I was taking a graduate > course in philosophy of logics, and my professor, Hans Herzberger, > warned me off using the terminology of deductive logic when writing of > Dign??ga. He demonstrated that an argument considered "correct" by > Dign??ga could still yield a false conclusion. The failures all stemmed > from making new empirical discoveries. For example, if a North American > has repeatedly observed that all mammals give live birth to their young, > it would be considered a "correct" argument to conclude when one sees a > mammal, that the animal gives live birth to its offspring. If one were > then to visit Australia and see one of the mammals there than lays eggs, > one's previously "correct" argument would yield a false conclusion. This > is something no deductive argument can do. (Do Australian human beings > give live birth or lay eggs? Never having been south of the equator, I > remain agnostic on this matter.) Could the problem here be merely the conflation of "validity" with "soundness" with the idea of samyak? Certainly, sound arguments cannot yeild false conclusions, for a sound argument is simply a valid argument with true premises and thus a true conclusion. But a valid argument can certainly yeild a false conclusion, provided that some or all of the premises are false. Thus, in the example you provide, the false premiss is that mamals give live birth to their young. While I know even less about Buddhist logic than I do about Nyaya, it seems to me suspicious that 'samyak' could be both 'validity' and 'soundness', as these are distinct concepts. >The deductive argument, on the other > hand, is rather barren and uninteresting. It works only when the major > premise is analytic. How often are we called upon in real life to make > inferences about the marital status of bachelors? Ah. I'm quite sure this is not true. As a proof that this must not be so, consider an argument with a necessarily false premise, such as "p and not p", where "p" is any proposition that one cares (for instance, "I ate breakfast today"). According to the standard definition of deductive validity --- a valid argument is an argument with no distribution of truth values across its atomic propositions such that all the premises turn out to be true while the conclusion is false ---*any* argument that employs this claim as a premise will be valid, for there will be no distribution of truth values across the atomic propositions such that all the premises will be true while the conclusion is false. Self contradictory premises are certainly not analytically true. And moreover, none of the other premises in such an argument need to be analytic either. Thus, if we continue with "p" means "I ate breakfast this morning" and say "q" is "I love seitan" and "r" is "Frege was a proto-Nazi", the argument p and not p (I ate breakfast this morning, and I didn?t eat breakfast this morning) q (I love seitan) therefore r (therefore Frege was a proto-Nazi) is deductively valid. None of these premises are analytic. Or, if one likes, consider a Humean example where "p" is "the sun rises every day" and "q" is "the sun rises on tuesdays." Modus ponens with these propositions is perfectly deductive and valid: p->q (if the sun rises every day, then the sun will rise on tuesday) p (the sun rises every day) .'. q (the sun will rise on tuesday) Nothing analytic here, but this is the very archetype of a valid deductive inference we teach in our symbolic logic classes. > For a long time I have tried to discuss Indian inferential schemata in > their own terms. One imposes unrealistic expectations on them when they > are called deductive. They just end up looking like failed deductive > arguments. A hundred years ago or so this "failure" was seen by some as > evidence that the philosophers of classical India were substandard > logicians. If one sees Ny??ya as trying to present an Aristotelian > syllogism, then the Ny??ya inferential scheme ends up looking like a > rather poor, at at least clumsy, attempt at a syllogism. If, on the > other hand, one looks at what the Indians were actually trying to do in > anum??na theory, it turns out they were doing an excellent job at > practical reasoning. > > I see it, therefore, as a practice in charity of interpretation to see > the classical Indians as offering something more like Peirce's abductive > logic (or inference to the best explanation) than something like > mathematical deduction or Boolean algebra. Perhaps this is caving in to > political correctness of some kind, but I do think there is rather more > at stake here than politesse. (I hope so; I'm a complete failure at > being polite.) > I certainly agree that if it turned out that all of our efforts to use the concepts of deductive logic to discuss Nyaya or Buddhist logic turned out that we were painting their efforts as failed, we would be well advised to revise our conceptualization of their efforts. But so far, it seems that the trouble we've been having is in distinguishing between the *scheme* and the propositions that are substituted into the scheme. It is the scheme that determines validity, not the propositions. And we thus need some way of conceptualizing the scheme apart from the employments of the schemes that so many of the Indian philosophers gave in their writings. And here, it is their intentions that make a big difference: how did they regard their schemes? One way to test this would be to see if Nyaya or Buddhist logicians regarded facts that contradicted the conclusions of their argument schemes as having implications for the truth of the premises in the argument. If something like modus tollens could be observed in their thinking, we have a straight forward deductive system at play. Best Shyam Shyam Ranganathan Department of Philosophy York University (Toronto) From rhayes at UNM.EDU Thu Mar 9 21:29:46 2006 From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 06 14:29:46 -0700 Subject: Indian Syllogism In-Reply-To: <002c01c643bf$db4b5680$9ab7fea9@skknet.net> Message-ID: <161227077584.23782.12828556981736261058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2006-03-09 at 22:24 +0100, Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > > If something like modus tollens could be observed in their thinking, we have a straight forward > > deductive system at play. > > Anvaya-vyatireki is a clear case of modus tollens. > > If there is smoke on the hill, then there is fire on the hill. > There is no fire on the hill. > Therefore, there is no smoke on the hill. Perhaps there is no real point in being careful, but I tend to do so anyway. The inferential schema used in India can be translated into modus tollens, as it can also be translated into set theoretical language. Like any translation, there may be some distortions. The classical Indian schemata as they were used in India were neither framed as something that can be handled by our propositional calculus, as modus tollens is, nor was they framed in terms of the relations among sets. They were framed in terms of examples of two particular things co- existing in a particular locus (anvaya) and in terms of two particular things being absent in a locus (vyatireka). From those particular observations, both of which are necessary, one derives a vy?pti. I would suggest that the statement of the vy?pti, given the limitations on observation, can only be a reasonable proposition, but never a certainty (ni?caya). For that reason I would take care to avoid using the language of deduction, because, as I said earlier, such language may raise expectations that cannot be fulfilled. There is nothing more I have to say on this. I have stated my reasons for exercising terminological caution, and nothing anyone has said yet has shown me that such caution is seriously misleading anyone or misrepresenting classical Indian inferential schemata. This whole issue is of such little consequence that there is no obvious point in wasting further time and bandwidth on it. -- Richard Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG Thu Mar 9 21:24:31 2006 From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 06 22:24:31 +0100 Subject: Indian Syllogism Message-ID: <161227077582.23782.6143395034916616670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > If something like modus tollens could be observed in their thinking, we have a straight forward > deductive system at play. Anvaya-vyatireki is a clear case of modus tollens. If there is smoke on the hill, then there is fire on the hill. There is no fire on the hill. Therefore, there is no smoke on the hill. The absence of probandum (sAdhyAbhAva) here is contrapositively regarded as the vyApya (pervaded), while the absence of probans (sAdhanAtyaya) is correctly intuited in the third instance of parAmarZa as the vyApaka (pervading). Best regards, Plamen From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 10 16:09:35 2006 From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 08:09:35 -0800 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077587.23782.16546903938014956470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Michael, I am probably not the only one to have now become very much interested to see this "balanced depiction of life in ancient India" and enjoy its "historical accuracy" ... Where can this California textbook be seen / ordered? On many points the new description must be better than the earlier HEF-VF version. However, I do have some doubts on ancient India's "polytheism" (your previous message) which seems to be not less a one-sided (and hence inclomplete and incorrect) description of the situation than exclusive monotheism. If I am not mistaken some sophisticated 'theistic' systems with a single highest god (or God) (various brands of theistic Vedanta, ancient ;Saiva and ancient Vai.s.nava sects) have been around in India for centuries and perhaps millennia, apart from polytheistic and even atheistic systems (anii;svara Saamkhya). Don't even Christianity, Judaism and Islam have their angels / powers apart from their "highest God" without becoming polytheisms ? The term 'polytheism' has anyway its own specific history (the hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria used it to refer polemically to the non-Jewish religions of antiquity) which may not make it the most suitable term to describe Hinduism (or even only ancient Hinduism, Brahmanism or Vedism). Jan Houben Jan E.M. Houben, Directeur d'Etudes, Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, A la Sorbonne, 45-47, rue des Ecoles, 75005 Paris -- France. J_E_M_Houben at yahoo.com Homepage: http://home.planet.nl/~j.e.m.houben Website: www.jyotistoma.nl __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU Fri Mar 10 18:08:46 2006 From: lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 10:08:46 -0800 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks In-Reply-To: <20060310160935.2389.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227077591.23782.856166389224023598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan, I think you have touched on an important issue. I tell my undergraduates that, while there are certainly many "gods" in that complex family of religious traditions that we have labeled "Hinduism," for any given Hindu, there is one and only one supreme being. Obviously, if you talk to different Hindus from differing theological traditions, you will discover a number of different supreme beings (God or Goddess, capital "G"). But if we draw conclusions from this about a religion called "Hinduism" we can easily be mislead. All best wishes, Lance On 10 Mar 2006 at 8:09, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > If I am not mistaken some sophisticated > 'theistic' systems with a single highest god (or > God) (various brands of theistic Vedanta, ancient > ;Saiva and ancient Vai.s.nava sects) have been > around in India for centuries and perhaps > millennia, apart from polytheistic and even > atheistic systems (anii;svara Saamkhya). Don't > even Christianity, Judaism and Islam have their > angels / powers apart from their "highest God" > without becoming polytheisms ? The term > 'polytheism' has anyway its own specific history > (the hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria used it > to refer polemically to the non-Jewish religions > of antiquity) which may not make it the most > suitable term to describe Hinduism (or even only > ancient Hinduism, Brahmanism or Vedism). ---------------------- Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego From jkirk at SPRO.NET Fri Mar 10 20:17:30 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 13:17:30 -0700 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks Message-ID: <161227077597.23782.3321316578803352923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the other hand, if one takes into consideration the differences between women's religious practices and those of men in India, and village practices as well as urban sophisticated practices, we often, even if not usually, find that village women are very polytheistic in their religious ceremonies, rituals, and beliefs, rarely saying that they are "worshipping God (Ishwar, or whomever)," unless some ideologue has gotten to them. The same, by the way, used to apply to Muslim village women in Bangladesh, who observed ritual practices of appeasement to local deities having nothing to do with Islam (I don't refer to Muslim saints here). By this time, however, with the highly funded influence over the past thirty years of Wahhabist Islam in Bangladesh, the villagers have probably by now changed their ways. Joanna Kirkpatrick ========================================================== > Jan, > > I think you have touched on an important issue. I tell my > undergraduates that, while there are certainly many "gods" in that > complex family of religious traditions that we have labeled > "Hinduism," for any given Hindu, there is one and only one supreme > being. Obviously, if you talk to different Hindus from differing > theological traditions, you will discover a number of different > supreme beings (God or Goddess, capital "G"). But if we draw > conclusions from this about a religion called "Hinduism" we can > easily be mislead. > > All best wishes, > > Lance From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Mar 10 18:19:54 2006 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 13:19:54 -0500 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks Message-ID: <161227077593.23782.2566072630500315481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance, In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:08:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU writes: I tell my undergraduates that, while there are certainly many "gods" in that complex family of religious traditions that we have labeled "Hinduism," for any given Hindu, there is one and only one supreme being. This is a categorical statement that is not defensible. Certainly, this was not true of my family tradition in which I grew up. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Mar 10 18:26:18 2006 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 13:26:18 -0500 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks Message-ID: <161227077595.23782.840144649032130111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (I am reformatting and resending this since the quotes in my last post were lost in transit through AOL.) Lance, This is a categorical statement that is not defensible. Certainly, this was not true of my family tradition in which I grew up. Regards S. Palaniappan In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:08:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU writes: I tell my undergraduates that, while there are certainly many "gods" in that complex family of religious traditions that we have labeled "Hinduism," for any given Hindu, there is one and only one supreme being. From rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 10 22:18:57 2006 From: rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM (Ravindran Sriramachhandran) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 14:18:57 -0800 Subject: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks In-Reply-To: <4411502E.31664.2B497B@lnelson.sandiego.edu> Message-ID: <161227077599.23782.4348224665187172182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> lance this is certainly not true of western tamilnadu where i grew up, in fact (coming from an 'orthodox' vaishnavite family) i was even 'advised' not to go siva temples. no talk about one supreme being, and at times when the local pujari used the word 'bhagawan' (ofcourse 'perumal' was preferable) he made clear that he meant vishnu and not siva. regards ravi Lance Nelson wrote: Jan, I think you have touched on an important issue. I tell my undergraduates that, while there are certainly many "gods" in that complex family of religious traditions that we have labeled "Hinduism," for any given Hindu, there is one and only one supreme being. Obviously, if you talk to different Hindus from differing theological traditions, you will discover a number of different supreme beings (God or Goddess, capital "G"). But if we draw conclusions from this about a religion called "Hinduism" we can easily be mislead. All best wishes, Lance On 10 Mar 2006 at 8:09, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > If I am not mistaken some sophisticated > 'theistic' systems with a single highest god (or > God) (various brands of theistic Vedanta, ancient > ;Saiva and ancient Vai.s.nava sects) have been > around in India for centuries and perhaps > millennia, apart from polytheistic and even > atheistic systems (anii;svara Saamkhya). Don't > even Christianity, Judaism and Islam have their > angels / powers apart from their "highest God" > without becoming polytheisms ? The term > 'polytheism' has anyway its own specific history > (the hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria used it > to refer polemically to the non-Jewish religions > of antiquity) which may not make it the most > suitable term to describe Hinduism (or even only > ancient Hinduism, Brahmanism or Vedism). ---------------------- Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. From lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU Fri Mar 10 22:46:46 2006 From: lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 14:46:46 -0800 Subject: Monotheism (was: Crushing Defeat) In-Reply-To: <20060310221857.59551.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227077601.23782.14197018703998856903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The fact that theologically educated Vaisnavas, as Ravindran points out, refuse to acknowledge Siva as Bhagavan, and avoid setting foot in Siva temples, seems to support my original point, doesn't it? They acknowledge Visnu as the single supreme being. Or am I missing something? But I do acknowledge, and welcome, the suggestion that not all Hindus, especially perhaps women, are theologically correct in their practice. But then the same would seem to apply to Roman Catholic villagers in Mexico, men and women, for whom the Virgin of Guadalupe and other saints (who may in fact be stand-ins for indigenous deities) are worshipped most seriously (and not just "reverenced" as the official theology would require). My colleague at USD, Orlando Espin, writes about this. Are we then going to deny that Christianity is monotheistic? For that matter, I have also had Vietnamese students who are astounded and upset to learn that the Buddha is not a god. Thanks for you help on this! Lance On 10 Mar 2006 at 14:18, Ravindran Sriramachhandran wrote: > this is certainly not true of western tamilnadu where i grew up, in fact (coming > from an 'orthodox' vaishnavite family) i was even 'advised' not to go siva temples. > no talk about one supreme being, and at times when the local pujari used the word > 'bhagawan' (ofcourse 'perumal' was preferable) he made clear that he meant vishnu > and not siva. -- Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego From jkirk at SPRO.NET Fri Mar 10 23:12:09 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 16:12:09 -0700 Subject: Monotheism (was: Crushing Defeat) Message-ID: <161227077603.23782.8738820061702839257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would not apply the term "theologically correct" to any discussion of religion(s) in India. There was no "church" comparable to that in Mexico, complete with theological doctrines and institutions. Buddhism also does not have any one, central hierarchical "church" per se from which theological doctrine issues. Therefore, if some villagers or non-monastics think and act as if the Buddha were a god, no problem. Frankly, I find the term "theology" to be not useful in the context of many of the world's religions or "spiritual practices." Joanna ========================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Nelson" To: Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Monotheism (was: Crushing Defeat) > The fact that theologically educated Vaisnavas, as Ravindran points > out, refuse to acknowledge Siva as Bhagavan, and avoid setting foot > in Siva temples, seems to support my original point, doesn't it? > They acknowledge Visnu as the single supreme being. Or am I missing > something? > > But I do acknowledge, and welcome, the suggestion that not all > Hindus, especially perhaps women, are theologically correct in their > practice. But then the same would seem to apply to Roman Catholic > villagers in Mexico, men and women, for whom the Virgin of Guadalupe > and other saints (who may in fact be stand-ins for indigenous > deities) are worshipped most seriously (and not just "reverenced" as > the official theology would require). My colleague at USD, Orlando > Espin, writes about this. Are we then going to deny that Christianity > is monotheistic? > > For that matter, I have also had Vietnamese students who are > astounded and upset to learn that the Buddha is not a god. > > Thanks for you help on this! > > Lance > > On 10 Mar 2006 at 14:18, Ravindran Sriramachhandran wrote: > >> this is certainly not true of western tamilnadu where i grew up, in fact >> (coming >> from an 'orthodox' vaishnavite family) i was even 'advised' not to go >> siva temples. >> no talk about one supreme being, and at times when the local pujari used >> the word >> 'bhagawan' (ofcourse 'perumal' was preferable) he made clear that he >> meant vishnu >> and not siva. > > > -- > Lance Nelson > Theology & Religious Studies > University of San Diego From lmfosse at CHELLO.NO Fri Mar 10 16:58:12 2006 From: lmfosse at CHELLO.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 17:58:12 +0100 Subject: SV: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize Californian textbooks In-Reply-To: <20060310160935.2389.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227077589.23782.16073302317685761064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan, This is an interesting question. Wouldn't the answer depend upon whether you refer to "Hinduism" as a collective term for Indian religions, or to Vaishnavism, Shaivism etc. separately? And as for Buddhism, although the religion in principle is atheistic, there is plenty of room for gods at various levels of the universe. Vedic religion was to my mind certainly polytheistic, so there would seem to be little scope for assuming that India was "always" monotheistic, if that is what our Hindutva friends are claiming. Whether Christianity is monotheistic or polytheistic would to me seem a matter of definition. The arguments concerning the trinity are as far as I can see rather murky, but then an elementary particle can be both a wave and a particle, so maybe it is just a quirk of language. Part of the problem with the Hindutvavadis is that they project modern understanding and interpretation into the hoary past. But so do our own theologians and quite a few other academics, as far as I can see. The difference between "us" and "them" may not always be as great as we think. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at chello.no http://www.linguistfinder.com/translators.asp?id=2164 > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P? vegne av > Jan E.M. Houben > Sendt: 10. mars 2006 17:10 > Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Emne: Re: Crushing Defeat of Hindutva attempts to saffronize > Californian textbooks > > Dear Michael, > I am probably not the only one to have now become very much > interested to see this "balanced depiction of life in ancient > India" and enjoy its "historical accuracy" ... Where can this > California textbook be seen / ordered? On many points the new > description must be better than the earlier HEF-VF version. > > However, I do have some doubts on ancient India's > "polytheism" (your previous message) which seems to be not > less a one-sided (and hence inclomplete and incorrect) > description of the situation than exclusive monotheism. > > If I am not mistaken some sophisticated > 'theistic' systems with a single highest god (or > God) (various brands of theistic Vedanta, ancient ;Saiva and > ancient Vai.s.nava sects) have been around in India for > centuries and perhaps millennia, apart from polytheistic and > even atheistic systems (anii;svara Saamkhya). Don't even > Christianity, Judaism and Islam have their angels / powers > apart from their "highest God" > without becoming polytheisms ? The term > 'polytheism' has anyway its own specific history (the > hellenized Jew Philo of Alexandria used it to refer > polemically to the non-Jewish religions of antiquity) which > may not make it the most suitable term to describe Hinduism > (or even only ancient Hinduism, Brahmanism or Vedism). > > Jan Houben > > Jan E.M. Houben, > Directeur d'Etudes, > Sources et Histoire de la Tradition Sanskrite Ecole Pratique > des Hautes Etudes, A la Sorbonne, 45-47, rue des Ecoles, > 75005 Paris -- France. > J_E_M_Houben at yahoo.com > Homepage: http://home.planet.nl/~j.e.m.houben > Website: www.jyotistoma.nl > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around http://mail.yahoo.com From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Mar 11 01:05:53 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 18:05:53 -0700 Subject: Monotheism (was: Crushing Defeat) Message-ID: <161227077608.23782.3347220966159838999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, in Thailand for example the sangha is---but the sangha there does not dictate belief in the manner that some Christian institutions were/still are able to do over the centuries. Buddhist sanghas don't carry out belief inquisitions. The only persons they are able to punish, for breaking vinaya rules, are errant monastics. Same goes for Sri Lanka. The nature of the Buddhist sangha in Theravada countries, at least, is that it is not a "church" in our sense of the term, with dogmatic rights over all the faithful and institutions that legislate belief. Thus, for example in recent times, to offer but one example, the monk Buddhadasa in Thailand outraged some of the Bangkok samgha hierarchy with views that they considered unacceptable, but they could do nothing. He made his own Suan Mokh ashram in southern Thailand and became famous. Joanna ========================================================= "Buddhism also does not have any one, central hierarchical "church" per se from which theological doctrine issues." Doesn't that depend on the country? In some Southeast Asian countries the Sangha is very thoroughly organized. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Mar 10 23:27:26 2006 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 18:27:26 -0500 Subject: Monotheism (was: Crushing Defeat) Message-ID: <161227077606.23782.14875414300598716178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Buddhism also does not have any one, central hierarchical "church" per se from which theological doctrine issues." Doesn't that depend on the country? In some Southeast Asian countries the Sangha is very thoroughly organized. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 11 03:47:13 2006 From: rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM (Ravindran Sriramachhandran) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 06 19:47:13 -0800 Subject: Monotheism (was: Crushing Defeat) In-Reply-To: <44119156.10247.4596E1@lnelson.sandiego.edu> Message-ID: <161227077610.23782.2070733529712035550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> lance i see that i messed up in my previous mail. while we were asked not to go to 'sivan' temples we were defnitely 'required' to go to 'mariamman' temples and 'karupparayan' temples (the 'perumal' in my neighbourhood had a complex ritual relationship with both the 'rayan' and the 'amman'). as long it was not siva...my mom, who is as 'orthodox' as they come, would even go to st. antony's but never to the 'murugan' and 'iswaran' temples. i remember even being told that as long as one did not go 'sivan' temples one could still hope for 'vaikuntam', regardless of what one did. ravi Lance Nelson wrote: The fact that theologically educated Vaisnavas, as Ravindran points out, refuse to acknowledge Siva as Bhagavan, and avoid setting foot in Siva temples, seems to support my original point, doesn't it? They acknowledge Visnu as the single supreme being. Or am I missing something? But I do acknowledge, and welcome, the suggestion that not all Hindus, especially perhaps women, are theologically correct in their practice. But then the same would seem to apply to Roman Catholic villagers in Mexico, men and women, for whom the Virgin of Guadalupe and other saints (who may in fact be stand-ins for indigenous deities) are worshipped most seriously (and not just "reverenced" as the official theology would require). My colleague at USD, Orlando Espin, writes about this. Are we then going to deny that Christianity is monotheistic? For that matter, I have also had Vietnamese students who are astounded and upset to learn that the Buddha is not a god. Thanks for you help on this! Lance On 10 Mar 2006 at 14:18, Ravindran Sriramachhandran wrote: > this is certainly not true of western tamilnadu where i grew up, in fact (coming > from an 'orthodox' vaishnavite family) i was even 'advised' not to go siva temples. > no talk about one supreme being, and at times when the local pujari used the word > 'bhagawan' (ofcourse 'perumal' was preferable) he made clear that he meant vishnu > and not siva. -- Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 11 15:34:31 2006 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Anderson) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 07:34:31 -0800 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp - correction Message-ID: <161227077617.23782.5530180896702449431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Dean Anderson" To: Indology Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:01:21 +0530 Subject: Re: 'Hindu' stamp - correction Is there a picture of the stamp available somewhere? Best, Dean Anderson On 3/11/06, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > > Correction: the words I have attributed to Kallidai may not be his. > They are part of a general summary of the opinions who those who do > not like the stamp. > > Valerie J Roebuck > > At 1:52 pm +0000 11/3/06, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > > >I have just been asked a question about a controversy that has > >persisted since last November, and wonder whether anyone on this > >list may be able to help. The matter concerned last year's UK > >Christmas stamps, which showed six different representations of the > >Madonna and Child, all intended to be from different cultures: > > >...According to Kallidai, 'The image features a man with a "tilak" > >marking on his forehead, identifying him as a Vaishnava Hindu, while > >the woman has the traditional "kumkum" mark on her forehead > >identifying her as a married Hindu woman.' > --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Mar 11 16:17:16 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 09:17:16 -0700 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp Message-ID: <161227077619.23782.1217135510684098376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If this painting is in a Mumbai gallery, does it not suggest that it was painted in India by an Indian artist? My guess (it's only that) is that it was painted by a Christian artist, perhaps wanting to indicate conversion, or just wanting to show the holy family as Indians. I wonder why the Royal Mail never gave the artist's name. Knowing the name would allow for a more persuasive "reading" of this picture. Presumably it was signed, but then perhaps it was not. The tilak on the man's forehead could be a slim version of a Vaisnava mark in that it's vertical, but very attenuated and not typical. (Strikes me as an artist's fancy.) (It's certainly not a full fledged Vaisnava tilak mark). The general style of the picture strikes me as 10th-early 20th c, along the lines of Chughtai or the Bengal School. The Virgin and Child (no tilaks) were represented in 16th c and later Mughal art and interior decoration (ceiling paintings). These representations were inspired by the importation of holy family pictures by missionaries from Europe, some of whom made it to the court of Akbar and also to later courts. That tilaks were applied in this case is a weird feature, considering the general run of such depictions in India. It might have merely been an idiosyncrasy of the artist. An interesting mystery unless someone comes forward with the artist's name and the name of the gallery, where some record giving provenance might be available. Here you can see a Vaisnava tilak photo and a bit about the mark http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/sects/vaishnavism.htm Here a Shaivite tilaka mark and discussion http://www.sripremananda.org/english/e1_swami/e1d_mahashivaratri/e1d_vibhuti_002.htm Generally speaking, Vaisnava marks are two verticals, often in a V shape, and Shaiva marks are three horizontal lines. Sorry I don't know of any specific scholarly study of these. Joanna Kirkpatrick From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Mar 11 16:19:11 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 09:19:11 -0700 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp--PS Message-ID: <161227077621.23782.5766693224018149156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hmm--notice that the devotee on the far left has blonde (yellow) hair. One wonders if the artist was making a political statement? Joanna From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Mar 11 16:28:20 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 09:28:20 -0700 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp--correction Message-ID: <161227077623.23782.15499225401517535980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Typo--- The general style of the picture strikes me as 10th-early 20th c, should read 19th-early 20thc Sorry ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkirk" To: Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: Re: 'Hindu' stamp > If this painting is in a Mumbai gallery, does it not suggest that it was > painted in India by an Indian artist? My guess (it's only that) is that > it was painted by a Christian artist, > perhaps wanting to indicate conversion, or just wanting to show the holy > family as Indians. I wonder why the Royal Mail never gave the artist's > name. Knowing the name would allow for a more persuasive "reading" of this > picture. Presumably it was signed, but then perhaps it was not. > > The tilak on the man's forehead could be a slim version of a Vaisnava mark > in that it's vertical, but very attenuated and not typical. (Strikes me as > an artist's fancy.) (It's certainly not a full fledged Vaisnava tilak > mark). The general style of the picture strikes me as 10th-early 20th c, > along the lines of Chughtai or the Bengal School. > > The Virgin and Child (no tilaks) were represented in 16th c and later > Mughal art and interior decoration (ceiling paintings). These > representations were inspired by the importation of holy family pictures > by missionaries from Europe, some of whom made > it to the court of Akbar and also to later courts. That tilaks were > applied in this case is a weird feature, considering the general run of > such depictions in India. It might have merely been an idiosyncrasy of the > artist. > > An interesting mystery unless someone comes forward with the artist's name > and the name of the gallery, where some record giving provenance might be > available. > > Here you can see a Vaisnava tilak photo and a bit about the mark > http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/sects/vaishnavism.htm > Here a Shaivite tilaka mark and discussion > http://www.sripremananda.org/english/e1_swami/e1d_mahashivaratri/e1d_vibhuti_002.htm > > Generally speaking, Vaisnava marks are two verticals, often in a V shape, > and Shaiva marks are three horizontal lines. Sorry I don't know of any > specific scholarly study of these. > Joanna Kirkpatrick From jkirk at SPRO.NET Sat Mar 11 18:25:33 2006 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 11:25:33 -0700 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp Message-ID: <161227077625.23782.18230062911477038406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/nov/02stamp.htm "It is an Indianised version of a European print of The Holy Family with St Anne and the two angels, according to the city art gallery. It has a European theme it [in?] a Mughal setting." I see 2 other figures, one of which could be St Anne and one an angel---maybe part of the picture was left off the stamp. Joanna K. From athr at LOC.GOV Sat Mar 11 18:32:23 2006 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 13:32:23 -0500 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp Message-ID: <161227077627.23782.14858298230138221434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First, I couldn't swear to it, but I think it is not particularly unusual for Indian Christian women to wear the bindu. It probably varies from region to region and caste-like group to group. Second, is it necessarily sectarian, in history, for an Indian man to wear a tilak on his forehead? I think Roberto de Nobili successfully argued against opponents and was supported in Rome, that it was a matter of aesthetics and marking social position, and could therefore be continued by converts to Christianity. Admittedly, I don't think it's been common more recently. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> jkirk at SPRO.NET 03/11/06 1:25 PM >>> From: http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/nov/02stamp.htm "It is an Indianised version of a European print of The Holy Family with St Anne and the two angels, according to the city art gallery. It has a European theme it [in?] a Mughal setting." I see 2 other figures, one of which could be St Anne and one an angel---maybe part of the picture was left off the stamp. Joanna K. From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Sat Mar 11 13:52:08 2006 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 13:52:08 +0000 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp In-Reply-To: <001b01c64498$0ef4a670$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227077612.23782.5726285497524338809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just been asked a question about a controversy that has persisted since last November, and wonder whether anyone on this list may be able to help. The matter concerned last year's UK Christmas stamps, which showed six different representations of the Madonna and Child, all intended to be from different cultures: http://www.royalmail.com:80/portal/rm/jump2?catId=16200174&mediaId=16300346 The problem arose over the 68p stamp, which shows a man and a woman with tilak marks on their foreheads worshipping the infant Jesus (who hasn't got a tilak). The Royal Mail claims that the design is based on a 17th century painting now in a Mumbai gallery. I assumed that the couple were meant to be Mary and Joseph, portrayed as Indians. However, some Hindus, such Ramesh Kallidai of the Hindu Forum, read the scene as depicting a Hindu couple worshipping Christ, which seemed to them to imply the conversion of Hindus to Christianity. They found it 'disrespectful'. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4396204.stm According to Kallidai, 'The image features a man with a "tilak" marking on his forehead, identifying him as a Vaishnava Hindu, while the woman has the traditional "kumkum" mark on her forehead identifying her as a married Hindu woman.' My enquirer would like to know whether the tilaks shown are indeed recognisably Vaishnava, and if there is anything written on the history of such markings, or their meaning in artistic representations of this period. And I would like to know if anyone is familiar with the painting on which the stamp is said to be based. What we can see of it on the stamp seems unlikely to be 17th century, unless it has been greatly adapted, but of course such photos can be misleading. Any thoughts? Valerie J Roebuck From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Sat Mar 11 14:03:56 2006 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 14:03:56 +0000 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp - correction Message-ID: <161227077614.23782.6876485996524314820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction: the words I have attributed to Kallidai may not be his. They are part of a general summary of the opinions who those who do not like the stamp. Valerie J Roebuck At 1:52 pm +0000 11/3/06, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: >I have just been asked a question about a controversy that has >persisted since last November, and wonder whether anyone on this >list may be able to help. The matter concerned last year's UK >Christmas stamps, which showed six different representations of the >Madonna and Child, all intended to be from different cultures: >...According to Kallidai, 'The image features a man with a "tilak" >marking on his forehead, identifying him as a Vaishnava Hindu, while >the woman has the traditional "kumkum" mark on her forehead >identifying her as a married Hindu woman.' From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Sat Mar 11 18:56:08 2006 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 18:56:08 +0000 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp - correction In-Reply-To: <20060311153431.93482.qmail@web60225.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227077629.23782.19138370289522035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You can see the whole set of stamps on this page: http://www.royalmail.com:80/portal/rm/jump2?catId=16200174&mediaId=16300346 and a bigger one of the 'Hindu' stamp on this page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4396204.stm At 7:34 am -0800 11/3/06, Dean Anderson wrote: >Is there a picture of the stamp available somewhere? My impression of the date was the same as Joanna's: At 9:17 am -0700 11/3/06, jkirk wrote: >The tilak on the man's forehead could be a slim version of a >Vaisnava mark in that it's vertical, but very attenuated and not >typical. (Strikes me as an artist's fancy.) (It's certainly not a >full fledged Vaisnava tilak mark). The general style of the picture >strikes me as [19th]-early 20th c, along the lines of Chughtai or >the Bengal School. Valerie From e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK Sat Mar 11 19:14:40 2006 From: e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 06 19:14:40 +0000 Subject: Jain icon representing the released spirit Message-ID: <161227077631.23782.17468178030265016252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology members, could anyone offer info or references to work on the history / symbology / ritual use of 'cutout' images (of Jinas I believe) found in jain art? An example, with the caption "Jain icon representing the released spirit", may be seen at: http://www.werner-forman-archive.com/India.htm Many thanks Elizabeth De Michelis Dr Elizabeth De Michelis University of Cambridge Faculty of Divinity Tel +44-(0)1223-763015 West Road Fax +44-(0)1223-763014 Cambridge, UK CB3 9BS From phbernede at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 13 16:54:37 2006 From: phbernede at YAHOO.COM (Pascale Haag) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 08:54:37 -0800 Subject: Cannu Bha.t.ta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077637.23782.7243352441887756491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a detailed summary of all arguments regarding this question in Jon Yamashita's (unpublished) thesis on the Chapter on Grammar of the Sarvadar"sanasa.mgraha. Jon M. Yamashita, A Translation and Study of the Paa.ninidar"sana Chapter of the Sarvadar"sanasa.mgraha. A Dissertation in Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Presented to the Faculties of the University of Pennsylvania in Partial Fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, Ann Arbor, Michigan, UMI Dissertation Services, 1998. Hope this helps. Best, Pascale Haag. Matthew Kapstein wrote: I have recently noticed that in his introduction to K. Klostermaier's trans. of ch. 16 of the Sarvadars'anasa.mgraha (Adyar 1999), K. Kunjunni Raja affirms the argument of Ananthalal Thakur (that appeared in the Adyar Library Bull. vol. 25) that one Cannu Bha.t.ta and not Saaya.na Maadhava was the real author of the SDS. Do any of the kind readers of the list know of additional critical discussion of this re-attribution, or have any further information to bring to bear upon the question? Matthew Kapstein --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 13 16:39:52 2006 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 10:39:52 -0600 Subject: Cannu Bha.t.ta In-Reply-To: <1141939786.4387.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <161227077635.23782.14284700177395219110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have recently noticed that in his introduction to K. Klostermaier's trans. of ch. 16 of the Sarvadars'anasa.mgraha (Adyar 1999), K. Kunjunni Raja affirms the argument of Ananthalal Thakur (that appeared in the Adyar Library Bull. vol. 25) that one Cannu Bha.t.ta and not Saaya.na Maadhava was the real author of the SDS. Do any of the kind readers of the list know of additional critical discussion of this re-attribution, or have any further information to bring to bear upon the question? Matthew Kapstein From lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU Mon Mar 13 19:20:28 2006 From: lnelson at SANDIEGO.EDU (Lance Nelson) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 11:20:28 -0800 Subject: Majapahit? Meaning? Derivation? Message-ID: <161227077646.23782.7359679421042594635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Learned colleagues: I'd appreciate it if anyone can enlighten me as to the meaning and derivation of "Majapahit," the name of Hindu-Buddhist kingdom of East Java c. 13-16th cent. CE. Seems kind of Sanskritic, but is it? Many thanks! Lance -- Lance Nelson Theology & Religious Studies University of San Diego From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 13 17:37:11 2006 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 11:37:11 -0600 Subject: Cannu Bha.t.ta In-Reply-To: <20060313165437.85738.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227077640.23782.6062130302804555500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitry Olenev has called my attention to a discussion on this topic in 2002, before I joined the list, on which one may consult the archives. Unless there is new information forthcoming, please do not burden the list with material already discussed. I thank prof. Olenev for his intervention. Matthew Kapstein From r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ Mon Mar 13 02:59:30 2006 From: r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 15:59:30 +1300 Subject: [Fwd: CBETA P5 XML files] Message-ID: <161227077633.23782.3586109510304852360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Of interest to some on the list? Best, Richard -----Forwarded Message----- From: Christian Wittern To: TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu Subject: CBETA P5 XML files Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:23:03 +0900 Announcement The Chinese Buddhist Electronic Text Association (CBETA) is proud to announce the immediate availability of a new set of XML files, which confirm to the Text Encoding Initiatives (TEI) guidelines and schema. The files are available for download at http://www.cbeta.org/xml/download.htm . The new release of a set of XML files by CBETA is a very significant step for the whole project. For this release, the files have been thoroughly checked and updated to confirm to the latest version of the TEI Guidelines (P5). The internal encoding has been converted to Unicode; characters that have no equivalent in Unicode are represented using the TEI "gaiji" module. For the first time ever, this is a release where every single character is identified in a way that is in accordance with international, open standards and thus allows easy interchange and handling by all conformant XML tools. The set of files comes with documentation for the extensions made by the CBETA project (using the standard TEI ODD extension mechanism) and with equivalent schema definitions using the DTD language, the W3C Schema language and Relax NG as defined by the ISO. These files are available in the link labelled "schema". All together, the collection of digital files now holds the equivalent of about 100 printed volumes. With this release, they become available to every interested researcher in a new format, which opens up completely new avenues for investigation. We hope this will not only provide a genuine service to the Chinese Studies and Buddhist Studies research communities, but will also be used as a an example for the encoding of new texts and as a test bed for tools developped to do new interesting things with these texts. The download of the texts is available as two bundles (one for the texts from the Taisho Tripitaka, Volumes 1-55 and 85, the other from the Zokuzokyo "Supplement", covering Volumes 1-5, 7-10 and 54-88) as well as individual volumes from these collections. Any questions might be directed to service (at) cbeta.org or to cwittern (at) gmail.com. With warm regards, Christian Wittern Advisor, CBETA Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: http://indica-et-buddhica.org Littledene | telephone/telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 27 482 9986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney[use"@"]iconz.co.nz From gimello at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 13 21:05:03 2006 From: gimello at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Robert M. Gimello) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 16:05:03 -0500 Subject: Majapahit? Meaning? Derivation? In-Reply-To: <4415557C.31457.D1638@lnelson.sandiego.edu> Message-ID: <161227077648.23782.7801847534235994213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the term "Majapahit" is not Sanskritic in origin. I seem to recall having read somewhere that it was originally the name of the village that, at the turn 14th century, became the capital city of the new E. Java empire so named, and that the meaning of the word was something like "bitter fruit." R. M. Gimello Harvard From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Mar 13 18:30:30 2006 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 19:30:30 +0100 Subject: Cannu Bha.t.ta In-Reply-To: <20060313165437.85738.qmail@web32410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227077642.23782.3614649057981960425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 13.03.2006 um 17:54 schrieb Pascale Haag: > There is a detailed summary of all arguments regarding this > question in Jon Yamashita's (unpublished) thesis on the Chapter on > Grammar of the Sarvadar"sanasa.mgraha. > > Jon M. Yamashita, A Translation and Study of the Paa.ninidar"sana > Chapter of the Sarvadar"sanasa.mgraha. A Dissertation in Asian and > Middle Eastern Studies Presented to the Faculties of the University > of Pennsylvania in Partial Fulfillment of the requirements for the > degree of Doctor of Philosophy, Ann Arbor, Michigan, UMI > Dissertation Services, 1998. This thesis is completely available online in PDF format under this link: http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI9913541/ hope it helps Peter Wyzlic From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Mar 13 19:26:04 2006 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 06 20:26:04 +0100 Subject: Cannu Bha.t.ta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077644.23782.15391235857911031362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 13.03.2006 um 19:30 schrieb Peter Wyzlic: > Am 13.03.2006 um 17:54 schrieb Pascale Haag: > >> There is a detailed summary of all arguments regarding this >> question in Jon Yamashita's (unpublished) thesis on the Chapter on >> Grammar of the Sarvadar"sanasa.mgraha. >> >> Jon M. Yamashita, A Translation and Study of the Paa.ninidar"sana >> Chapter of the Sarvadar"sanasa.mgraha. A Dissertation in Asian and >> Middle Eastern Studies Presented to the Faculties of the >> University of Pennsylvania in Partial Fulfillment of the >> requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, Ann Arbor, >> Michigan, UMI Dissertation Services, 1998. > > This thesis is completely available online in PDF format under this > link: > > http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI9913541/ Sorry for replying to myself. After posting I saw that the PDF link goes to the UMI repository and not to thesis directly. The download links at the UPenn site are a bit deceiving at first sight :) Peter Wyzlic From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 14 09:18:45 2006 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Anderson) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 01:18:45 -0800 Subject: 'Hindu' stamp - correction Message-ID: <161227077650.23782.5886884031180793416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 9:17 am -0700 11/3/06, jkirk wrote: >The tilak on the man's forehead could be a slim version of a >Vaisnava mark in that it's vertical, but very attenuated and not >typical. (Strikes me as an artist's fancy.) (It's certainly not a >full fledged Vaisnava tilak mark). This type of tilak is very common in some places. Although I've seen it identified as a Vaishnava tilak, I've also seen non-Vaishnavas wearing it who simply consider it a different style of tilak. Best, Dean Anderson --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 14 15:22:54 2006 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 10:22:54 -0500 Subject: an interesting Mahabharata ms Message-ID: <161227077656.23782.3973656654543345023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has bought two minuscule script Bhagavatapurana scrolls, one from Sam Fogg (ex-Newberry Library) and another from an American private person. Some art historian, it may have been Vidya Dehejia, told me that these scrolls were particularly characteristic of Alwar. Ours are not on silk but on paper, in one case backed by silk (probably by Newberry). The style is to my amateur eyes not dissimilar to the Edinburgh one, but our ills. take up a smaller fraction of the width of the scroll than yours appear to. How wide is yours? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Tue Mar 14 15:10:23 2006 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 15:10:23 +0000 Subject: an interesting Mahabharata ms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077652.23782.1635813284671001414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I wonder whether most of you know that Edinburgh University Library possesses an unusual and interesting scroll manuscript of the Mahabharata with a considerable number of fine miniatures. Three of those miniatures have featured on covers of books that you may have come across: (in chronologic order of publication), my own The Sacred Thread (2nd edn), Richard King's Indian Philosophy and Will Johnson's translation of the Sauptikaparvan. However, the library has now mounted some more, along with some background information on the manuscript (partly drawn from my own notes on the manuscript), on its web site as its "Book of the Month" for March. It can be accessed at and I do recommend a look. Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW From pf at CIX.CO.UK Tue Mar 14 15:14:00 2006 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (pf) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 15:14:00 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227077654.23782.16481976990433692716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please find attached the programme of the 9th Jaina Studies Workshop at SOAS, March 23-24. The Workshop will be opened by the Annual Jain Lecture which will be delivered by Prof Johannes Bronkhorst of the University of Lausanne. The Conference is free. All are Welcome! yours Dr Peter Flugel Centre of Jain Studies, SOAS PROGRAMME: JAINISM AND SOCIETY (8th JAINA STUDIES WORKSHOP AT SOAS, 23-24.3.2006) Thursday 23.3.2006, 18.00-19.30, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre=20 School of Oriental and African Studies, Russell Square, London WC1 The Annual Jain Lecture Johannes Bronkhorst (University of Lausanne) Jainism, window on early India Reception: Brunei Gallery Cafe, 19.30 Friday 24.3.2006, SOAS, Russell Square, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre,=20 9.00 Robert del Bonta (San Francisco) >From Herodotus to the late 18th century: descriptions of unidentified=20 Jainas Dharma Candra Jain (University of Jodhpur) The concept of society in Jainism Satya Ranjan Banerjee (University of Calcutta) Jain society in the reigns of Jain kings 10.50 Tea and Coffee Sushil Jain (Assumtion University, Canada) Jaina contribution to the science of polity with respect to Somadeva's=20 Nitivakyamrtam Hampa P.Nagarajaiah (University of Bangalore) The concept of sastradana in Jainism: Socio-cultural dimensions Kornelius Kr=FCmpelmann (University of Muenster) The Sthanangasutra: An encyclopaedic text of the Svetambara canon =09 13.05 Lunch =09 Werner Menski (SOAS) Jainism as natural law=20 Peter Flugel (SOAS) Jaina law and the Jain community Ravindra K. Jain (JNU, New Delhi) Religious response to social unrest: The rise of the Kanji Svami Panth in= contemporary Jainism 15.50 Tea and Coffee Ulrich Oberdieck (Freiburg) Caste identity of the Agravals in an Uttaranchal market town Jitendra B. Shah (L.D. Institute, Ahmedabad) Jain Societies in Ahmedabad Anne Vallely (University of Ottawa) You are what you eat: Negotiations of identity among contemporary Jains Julia Hegewald (University of Heidelberg) Domes, tombs and minarets: Islamic influences on Jaina architecture 19.30 Conference Dinner All Welcome! Inquiries: Department for the Study of Religions, Faculty of Arts and=20 Humanities, SOAS, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H OXG, 7898 4028, sh87 at soas.ac.uk, http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Mar 14 22:32:36 2006 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 16:32:36 -0600 Subject: Majapahit In-Reply-To: <11BC2208-1C16-40DC-B251-B1276D1B314D@osu.edu> Message-ID: <161227077660.23782.15881484474744241194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I am not mistaken, the language of the Majapahit was Old Javanese, not Bahasa Indonesia! Matthew Kapstein From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Tue Mar 14 22:15:00 2006 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 17:15:00 -0500 Subject: Majapahit In-Reply-To: <6F4D2D9B-4AE2-4ABE-85B4-BDB572FDD5E3@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <161227077658.23782.10390191003444464455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John C. Huntington (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) The Ohio State University Dear Majapahit Folks, 1) "Maja" is the Indonesian name of a large green fruit and "pahit" means "bitter" in Indonesian http://www.eastjava.com/books/discovery/html/temple-maja.html a) Bhasa Indonesia Dictionaries do not list maja 2) I have not been able to find easily the botanical name. 3) A photo of the plant can be seen at http://www.eastjava.com/books/discovery/html/temple-maja.html 4) The fruit can be seen at: http://flickr.com/photos/namakulia/ SCROLL to the Bottom of the page! 5) Thumb Piano made from the dried rind of the fruit can be seen at: http://www.shop.com/op/~Kalimba_thumb_piano,_'Bundar'-prod-12755232 6) A translation of the Usada Cukildaki with medical uses of Maja is at: http://www.ringingrocks.org/www/lontar_vol3/usada%20cukildaki/pages/ engtxt.htm If I find more in the next few days (especially the botanical name) I will send it on John From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Wed Mar 15 04:09:20 2006 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 06 23:09:20 -0500 Subject: Majapahit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077662.23782.8167011278211169577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John C. Huntington, Professor (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) Department of the History of Art The Ohio State University Columbus, OH, U.S.A. Mat is absolutely right. I slipped up (thank you Mat). John On Mar 14, 2006, at 5:32 PM, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > If I am not mistaken, the language of the Majapahit was Old > Javanese, not Bahasa Indonesia! > > Matthew Kapstein From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Fri Mar 17 10:56:02 2006 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 06 10:56:02 +0000 Subject: a new publication In-Reply-To: <4416DCDF.7090303@ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227077665.23782.18420382481273091126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Without this posting, perhaps fewer of you than it deserves would become aware of the following new publication, covering the full range of Indian studies from classical Indology to contemporary issues: India in Warsaw / Indie w Warszawie, ed. by Danuta Stasik and Anna Trynkowska, Elipsa, Warszawa, 2006. 389 pp. ISBN 83-7151-721-1. I ought to declare an interest, since Mary and I are among the half dozen non-Polish contributors to the volume, which is mainly in English, although several articles are in Polish with English summaries. It arises out of a conference held to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the resumption of Indian studies at Warsaw after the Second World War. Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW From e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK Fri Mar 17 11:07:57 2006 From: e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 06 11:07:57 +0000 Subject: a new publication In-Reply-To: <441A95C2.40503@ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227077668.23782.11401235472914163142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear John thanks for this. Is a table of contents available anywhere on the web, or could you kindly circulate it? best regards Elizabeth Dr Elizabeth De Michelis University of Cambridge Faculty of Divinity Tel +44-(0)1223-763015 West Road Fax +44-(0)1223-763014 Cambridge, UK CB3 9BS --On Friday, March 17, 2006 10:56 +0000 John Brockington wrote: Dear Colleagues, Without this posting, perhaps fewer of you than it deserves would become aware of the following new publication, covering the full range of Indian studies from classical Indology to contemporary issues: India in Warsaw / Indie w Warszawie, ed. by Danuta Stasik and Anna Trynkowska, Elipsa, Warszawa, 2006. 389 pp. ISBN 83-7151-721-1. I ought to declare an interest, since Mary and I are among the half dozen non-Polish contributors to the volume, which is mainly in English, although several articles are in Polish with English summaries. It arises out of a conference held to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of the resumption of Indian studies at Warsaw after the Second World War. Yours John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW From pf at CIX.CO.UK Fri Mar 17 11:42:00 2006 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (pf) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 06 11:42:00 +0000 Subject: BOOK LAUNCH (NEW SERIES) , SOAS, THURSDAY MARCH 23 Message-ID: <161227077670.23782.11025848814221642781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Collegues and Friends, The Centre of Jaina Studies requests the pleasure of your company for the launch of the first volume of the new Routledge Advances in Jaina Studies series, Studies in Jaina History and Culture: Disputes and Dialogues Edited by Peter Fl?gel, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, UK. The series will be inaugurated before the Annual Jain Lecture of the SOAS Centre of Jaina Studies by Professor Johannes Bronkhorst of the University of Lausanne on 'Jainism, window on early India', at the Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre, London School of Oriental and African Studies, Russell Square, London WC1, Thursday, March 23, 6pm. . The launch and lecture are followed by a reception in the Brunei Gallery Cafe. No RSVP. Inquiries: Sara Hamza SOAS Centres Office sh87 at soas.ac.uk Routledge Advances in Jaina Studies Series editor: Peter Fl?gel, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, UK Jaina Studies have become an important part of the Study of Religion. This series provides a medium for regular scholarly exchange across disciplinary boundaries. It will include edited volumes and monographs on Jainism and the Jains. Vol. I Studies in Jaina History and Culture: Disputes and Dialogues Edited by Peter Fl?gel, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, UK Studies in Jaina History and Culture breaks new ground by investigating the doctrinal differences and debates amongst the Jains rather than presenting Jainism as a seamless whole whose doctrinal core has remained virtually unchanged throughout its long history. The focus of the book is the discourse concerning orthodoxy and heresy in the Jaina tradition, the question of omniscience and Jaina logic, role models for women and female identity, Jaina schools and sects, religious property, law and ethics. The internal diversity of the Jaina tradition and Jain techniques of living with diversity are explored from an interdisciplinary point of view by fifteen leading scholars in Jaina studies. The contributors focus on the principal social units of the tradition: the schools, movements, sects and orders, rather than Jain religious culture in abstract. The book provides a representative snapshot of the current state of Jaina studies that will interest students and academics involved in the study of religion or South Asian cultures. Contents Part 1: Orthodoxy and Heresy 1. Adda or the Oldest Extant Dispute between Jains and Heretics (Suyagada 2,6) William Bollee 2. The Later Fortunes of Jamali Paul Dundas 3. The Dating of the Jaina Councils: Do Scholarly Presentations Reflect the Traditional Sources? Royce Wiles Part 2: The Question of Omniscience and Jaina Logic 4. The Jain-Mimamsa Debate on Omniscience Olle Qvarnstorm 5. Why must there be an Omniscient in Jainism? Sin Fujinaga 6. Implications of the Buddhist-Jaina Dispute over the Fallacious Example in Nyaya-Bindu and Nyayavatara-Vivrti Piotr Balcerowicz Part 3: Role Models for Women and Female Identity 7. Restrictions and Protection: Female Jain Renouncers Sherry E. Fohr 8. Thinking Collectively about Jain Satis: The Uses of Jain Sati Name Lists M. Whitney Kelting 9. Religious Practice and the Creation of Personhood among Svetambar Murtipujak Jain Women in Jaipur Josephine Reynell Part 4: Sectarian Movements 10. Rethinking Religious Authority: A Perspective on the Followers of Srimad Rajacandra Emma Salter 11. A Fifteenth Century Digambar Mystic and his Contemporary Followers: Taran Taran Svami and the Taran Svami Panth John E. Cort 12. Demographic Trends in Jaina Monasticism Peter Fl?gel Part 5: Property, Law and Ethics 13. Architectural, Sculptural and Religious Change: A New Interpretation of the Jaina Temples at Khajuraho Julia A. B. Hegewald 14. Jaina Law as an Unofficial Legal System Werner Menski 15. Ahimsa and Compassion in Jainism Kristi L. Wiley Index March 2006: 234x156: 512pp Hb: 0-415-36099-4: ?95.00 launch prize: ?66.50 Forthcoming: Vol II History, Scripture and Controversy in a Medieval Jain Sect, by Paul Dundas, University of Edinburgh, UK The subject of this fine book is the history and intellectual activity of the medieval Svetambara Jain disciplinary order, the Tapa Gaccha. The overall theme of this book is the consolidation from the thirteenth century by the Tapa Gaccha of its identity as the dominant Svetambara Jain disciplinary order. Thanks to the author?s exceptional knowledge of the field, the topic is shown in practice to be central to our understanding of many of the key questions scholars have been asking about the history and development, not just of Jainism, but of South Asian religious traditions in general, including the way in which traditions establish and maintain their authority in relation to texts, the relationship between text, commentary and tradition, attitudes to female religiosity, and tensions both within and between sects. Paul Dundas is Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland. His previous book, The Jains, is also available from Routledge. December 2006: 234x156: 256pp Hb: 0-415-37611-4: ?65.00 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 17 16:34:36 2006 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 06 16:34:36 +0000 Subject: Position at the Austrian Academy of Sciences (fwd) Message-ID: <161227077672.23782.9910117575692521345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften The Austrian Academy of Sciences, Austria's leading institution for non-university scientific research, invites applications for the fixed term position of Director of the Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia in Vienna, Austria. The position will be available from 1 January 2007. The Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia is a Research Institute of the Austrian Academy of Sciences and currently has seven research fellows. The Institute's research focus is the study of the cultures of Asia. The results of these studies aim to broaden the knowledge of Asia-specific fields and promote the understanding of the diverse developments, contacts and mutual influences of the cultures of Asia. Acquirement of outside research funding as well as international cooperation is required for the long term maintenance and further growth of the Institute. The initial appointment is fixed term for a period of six years, full-time, employed directly by the Austrian Academy of Sciences. It is required that the director lives in or will move to Vienna or its vicinity. It is not required that the candidate speaks German, although a reading ability and his willingness to learn German are of advantage. The Academy expects the applicant to have or show evidence of: ? The equivalent to a German "Habilitation" (or comparable scholarly research) in either Indology or Buddhist Studies ? Publications on and experience in critical text work and historical-critical interpretation ? An outstanding publications record, especially in international journals ? Documented long term experience in leadership of research groups and of international projects ? International research experience or experience at a prominent research institution comparable to the Austrian Academy of Sciences ? Good knowledge of the international scholarly community ? Strong interpersonal and communication skills, ability to work with a team, diplomacy and leadership skills, and the ability to oversee projects and working teams ? Demonstrated strong organizational skills ? Experience in the acquirement of outside funding The Austrian Academy of Sciences is interested in increasing the number of qualified women among its employees, especially in directorial positions, and therefore expressly encourages women to apply. Applications should be made in the form of a detailed CV and publication list, a cover letter with a statement of research interests, and off-prints of the applicant's three most important publications. They should be directed to: Aktuarin der philosophisch-historischen Klasse Ms. Lisbeth Triska ?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften Dr. Ignaz Seipel-Platz 2 A-1010 Wien Austria. Further information about the Academy and the Institute can be found at the Academy's home page: http://www.oeaw.ac.at or that of the Institute: http://www.oeaw.ac.at/ias/index.html Submission deadline: 31 May 2006 From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Sun Mar 19 18:47:01 2006 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 06 12:47:01 -0600 Subject: SARDS online - WOW! In-Reply-To: <1FL2e9-04reeO0@fwd31.sul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227077677.23782.4275067764916224121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists, We owe a deep debt of gratitude to Professor Slaje and his colleagues for this impressive undertaking. A quick look at the list of Abbreviations will show how useful this tool will be! On Sun, 19 Mar 2006, Walter Slaje wrote: > South Asia Research Documentation Services (SARDS) 2 ... > http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/ Best wishes, Tim Cahill Loyola University From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Sun Mar 19 18:28:00 2006 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 06 18:28:00 +0000 Subject: SARDS online Message-ID: <161227077674.23782.15497892925013982493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> South Asia Research Documentation Services (SARDS) 2 SARDS 2 is an electronic database containing bibliographic references to South Asia research articles published in journals, collective volumes, conference proceedings, Festschriften, etc. Its focus is on the humanities and social sciences. To date, over 56.000 fully indexed citations have been made electronically searchable, covering a period of Indological research from 1786 until 2000: http://www.indologie.uni-halle.de/Sards2/ It gives me real pleasure to publicly express my thanks to Andreas Pohlus (Halle) and to his exceptionally gifted son Balthasar Pohlus (Berlin), by whose programming expertise apparently unsurmountable difficulties could be overcome and the present search tool could be brought to fruition. Walter Slaje -------------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun Mar 19 19:13:29 2006 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 19 Mar 06 20:13:29 +0100 Subject: SARDS online - WOW! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077679.23782.4855572662629015177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Timothy C. Cahill schrieb: > Indologists, > > We owe a deep debt of gratitude to Professor Slaje and his > colleagues for this impressive undertaking. A quick look at the list > of Abbreviations will show how useful this tool will be! > > Indeed, the usefulness of this tool is enormous, as should be, and will be, our gratitude! One issue, however, springs to mind for the regular user of bibliographical databases: the help page of SARDS2 describes how one can copy entries to word processing software, which basically amounts to copying strings of letters through copy-and-paste. This seems to be the only form of data export that is currently envisaged. How about export to bibliographical tools like Endnote, via a Z39.50 gateway? Or how about (more or less) standardized bibliographical export formats like BibTeX or TEI's XML structure? Are these being envisaged as potential future additions? Implementing more sophisticated import/export possibilities, or even devising special application programming interfaces (API) which allow for combining individual bibliographical databases into meta search engines, would increase the utility of SARDS2 even further - especially since people will probably feel more inclined to suggest additions to the database and point out possible lacunae if for their input they actually get data in return that widespread bibliographical software can readily process. Well, speaking for myself, I most certainly would! SARDS itself could also profit from such export/import facilities because they would also facilitate data import into the SARDS database (with some post-processing to accommodate, for instance, customised keywording schemes). - Just some food for thought. Once more: thanks to Walter Slaje (and especially to Balthasar Pohlus :-)) for this wonderful resource. Birgit Kellner From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Mar 20 17:10:08 2006 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 06 12:10:08 -0500 Subject: help in identifying mss scroll script Message-ID: <161227077683.23782.18353943786156527803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I have been asked to help another colleague in the effort to identify the script and language contained in a manuscript scroll. I am way out of my league here (and do not recognize the script myself). I have improved the contrast in the images, compressed them a bit for ease of downloading, and placed them in a temporary location on our web server for you to look at: In the forwarded background correspondence below, I have changed names to initials, to follow protocol for group-forwarding of the emails of others. Many thanks for any suggestions. David Magier South/Southeast Asia Librarian Columbia University Libraries ________________________________ Dear Mr. David Magier; Carol P. -a friend from the Butler library, suggested that I forward a research request to you - the response from other researchers - is partially listed below. Attached are a few images from a scroll that a scholar (and supporter of our library here at the Cooper-Hewitt) has asked us to research. These scholars have noted that the language origin is probably from Tibet/Nepal/India -not earlier language forms found in the areas -in present day Iran-Iraq-Turkey-Greece-Balkan states. Researcher is looking for language - possible translation - and approx date written. Could let us know who to ask (if not Columbia). Thanks. SvD ________________________________ Dear Mr. Van Dyk, The seal looks almost Medusa-like. One could expect some kind of Graeco-Bactrian, perhaps, but the script, which looks very repetitive, is not like any Graeco-Bactrian or later Greek-based writing systems (e.g. Hephthalite) that I have seen. Given its repetitive nature, it may be some kind of prayer (or curse). Robert McChesney's suggestion to let an Indologist take at look at it is a good idea. Sorry that I cannot be of any help here. Best, PBG ________________________________ Dear PBG: as you can see from the e-mail response below, Robert McChesney from NYU suggested that I contact you concerning the attached scroll inscriptions - a researcher wants to know what language it is, a translation if possible & approximate age. Thanks. SvD ________________________________ This is not one of the Arabic script-based languages: Arabic, Persian (Farsi, Dari), Chaghatay Turkish, OttomanTurkish, Urdu. My best suggestion would be to try an Indologist. I have no one to suggest but Columbia would be the place to look. On the off chance that this originates from Inner Asia the best person I can think of is PBG. Good luck. RM ------------ Dear RM - we spoke a week or so ago about translating an inscription from a scroll that a researcher thinks is Afghani - attached are a few shots that were forwarded to me at the museum. IS at the Met indicated that the script was not cuneiform -not Mesopotamian -his area of expertise. Can you give us a lead or know who I should forward these images to? Many Thanks. SvD From arlo.griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Mar 20 15:10:43 2006 From: arlo.griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 06 16:10:43 +0100 Subject: Leiden Indological Summer School Message-ID: <161227077681.23782.9533636304874559312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, My apologies for adding another item to the series of announcements for summer activities, and a reminder at that. We still have a few places open in our Indological Summer School (), and would be grateful if you could bring the Summer School to your students' attention. Arlo Griffiths Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden, the Netherlands From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Mar 21 08:51:00 2006 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 06 08:51:00 +0000 Subject: SARDS online - WOW! In-Reply-To: <441DAD59.8060200@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227077685.23782.6737077096686374464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Liebe Frau Kellner, vielen Dank f?r Ihre wichtigen Hinweise! Hier herrscht z.Z. ganz sch?ne Hektik, aber Herr Pohlus wird in der Sache sicher noch auf Sie zukommen. Noch ist nicht alles in trockenen T?chern. Im ?brigen hatten wir urspr?nglich die Beteiligung externer Beitr?ger vorgesehen, dies zun?chst aber rausgenommen, jetzt steht es wieder drin. Wenn Sie Ihre Datens?tze zur Verf?gung stellen k?nnten - nichts lieber als das. Mit herzlichen Dank und besten Gr??en, Ihr Walter Slaje ---------------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Mar 21 09:36:00 2006 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 06 09:36:00 +0000 Subject: SARDS online - WOW! (Sorry) In-Reply-To: <1FLcsQ-0bbqjY0@fwd28.sul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <161227077687.23782.12022836388786684848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for this erroneously publicly posted mail, which was intended for Birgit Kellner only. Walter Slaje "Walter Slaje" schrieb: > Liebe Frau Kellner, > > vielen Dank f?r Ihre wichtigen Hinweise! Hier herrscht z.Z. ganz sch?ne Hektik, > aber Herr Pohlus wird in der Sache sicher noch auf Sie zukommen. Noch ist nicht > alles in trockenen T?chern. Im ?brigen hatten wir urspr?nglich die Beteiligung > externer Beitr?ger vorgesehen, dies zun?chst aber rausgenommen, jetzt steht es > wieder drin. Wenn Sie Ihre Datens?tze zur Verf?gung stellen k?nnten - nichts > lieber als das. > > Mit herzlichen Dank und besten Gr??en, > > Ihr Walter Slaje > > ---------------------------------- > Prof Dr Walter Slaje > Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 > D-99425 Weimar (Germany) > Tel/Fax: +49-(0)3643 501391 > www.indologie.uni-halle.de > > Ego ex animi mei sententia spondeo ac polliceor > me studia humanitatis impigro labore culturum et provecturum > non sordidi lucri causa nec ad vanam captandam gloriam, > sed quo magis veritas propagetur et lux eius, qua salus > humani generis continetur, clarius effulgeat. > Vindobonae, die XXI. mensis Novembris MCMLXXXIII. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Mar 21 16:03:55 2006 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 06 11:03:55 -0500 Subject: help in identifying mss scroll script: the upshot Message-ID: <161227077689.23782.7132838293315961959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to everyone who took a look at those peculiar manuscript scrolls and attempted to help figure out which language/script they might be. There were lots of speculative responses pointing to about 6 different parts of the world (ranging from Semitic to Soghdian to Devanagari to Dravidian to Burmese), but no one felt confident about any sort of identification, EXCEPT Prof. Oktor Skjaervo of Harvard, who felt it was Bactrian Greek, and who pointed me to Prof. Nicholas Sims-Williams of SOAS. He is a Bactrian specialist whose opinion below seems to be the final word on the matter. Another great example of the power of the internet for broad scholarly communication! Thanks again to all. David Magier Columbia University Libraries ------------ Forwarded Message ------------ Dear Mr Magier, Professor Skjaerv? has forwarded your message to me since he recognized the script as the Bactrian variety of Greek script, which is a speciality of mine. Unfortunately the manuscript seems to be a modern forgery, of which there are many on the market nowadays. The letters are mostly correctly written, presumably copied from genuine documents, but they are not joined up as they would be in a real text and therefore cannot be transcribed, let alone translated. I cannot tell whether or not the sealing is authentic, as the photo is quite blurred, but it seems to be attached to the document the opposite way up to the writing. I am sorry to be the bringer of disappointing news. All the best, Nicholas Sims-Williams ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 22 15:23:56 2006 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Anderson) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 06 07:23:56 -0800 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode Message-ID: <161227077693.23782.5396100374724197588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I and a few others on this list have been agitating to get Vedic Accents added to the Unicode standard. I received the following email today. I'll post more details when I get them. I'd be interested in finding out if any members of this list or others plan on attending. Dean Dr. Dean Anderson Director East West Cultural Institute ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: MJain at mit.gov.in Date: Mar 22, 2006 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Vedic Accents in Unicode To: Dean Anderson , Uma Umamaheswaran Dear Sirs, Government of India is very much concerned with the encoding of the Vedic accents in the Unicode. Dr. Om Vikas has proceeded on deputation to Indian Institute of Information Technology & Management, Gwalior (India). We are planning to organize a workshop of Vedic/ Sanskrit scholars and all the stake holders to discuss the issues and build consensus wrt to encoding of Vedic accents, in the second week of the April, in Delhi. We hope to evolve some consensus, so that we may proceed further. regards, Manoj Jain Joint Director Government of India Ministry of Communications & IT Department of Information Technology New Delhi 110003 Phone +91-11-24301240 Fax +91-11-24363076 "Dean Anderson" 21-03-2006 15:07 To "Uma Umamaheswaran" --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Mar 22 19:28:10 2006 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 06 11:28:10 -0800 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode Message-ID: <161227077697.23782.2851341852983390053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings, At 7:23 AM -0800 3/22/06, Dean Anderson wrote: >I and a few others on this list have been agitating to get Vedic >Accents added to the Unicode standard. I know that at one time there was an Indic list-serve for Unicode concerns (http://www.unicode.org/~emuller/iwg/) but it's current status is unclear. On a related note, however, I have been encoding some Sanskrit text in unicode and have been unable to locate the equivalent of a headline ellipsis in the Devanagari range (0900-097F) or under "General Punctuation" (2000-206F). Can someone tell me if this has been encoded in a non-obvious manner or as a variant form of another glyph? Otherwise, this would appear to be another candidate for addition to the standard. Paul Hackett Dept. of Religion Columbia University From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 22 14:51:08 2006 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 06 14:51:08 +0000 Subject: Academic Network for European Research related to India (fwd) Message-ID: <161227077691.23782.1828560042763156684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For general interest ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The European Commission has recently launched a new project, the 'Academic Network for European Research related to India' (ANERI). The project aims to strengthen the ties between the European Union and India. It also seeks to promote funding for specific types of India-focused research. Further details about the ANERI project can be found at: http://www.eias.org/research/2006/aneri.html --------------------------------------- From ferenc.ruzsa at ELTE.HU Wed Mar 22 15:41:53 2006 From: ferenc.ruzsa at ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 06 16:41:53 +0100 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode Message-ID: <161227077695.23782.1651076416819762750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, I am not in a position to actively participate in such efforts, but I would like to draw the attention of those who can to the problem of the underring characters. When in a text we have besides Sanskrit e.g. Hindi or Tamil or Pali words as well, it would be very nice to distinguish vocalic r and l (underring) from retroflex r /l (underdot). But in the present Unicode standard (as far as I know) the underring characters are not defined. Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: ferenc.ruzsa at elte.hu From alberto.pelissero at UNITO.IT Thu Mar 23 06:39:05 2006 From: alberto.pelissero at UNITO.IT (alberto pelissero) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 06 07:39:05 +0100 Subject: Academic Network for European Research related to India (fwd) Message-ID: <161227077699.23782.2057626714288166001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Caro Stefano, dopo la visita di aprile sar? il caso di dare un'occhiata a questo bando. Tenendo conto del tuo congedo si potrebbe anche provare, ma aspetiamo a vedere di che si tratta. A presto, Alberto ----Original Message---- From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Date: Mar 22, 2006 3:51:08 PM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subj: Academic Network for European Research related to India (fwd) For general interest ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The European Commission has recently launched a new project, the 'Academic Network for European Research related to India' (ANERI). The project aims to strengthen the ties between the European Union and India. It also seeks to promote funding for specific types of India-focused research. Further details about the ANERI project can be found at: http://www.eias.org/research/2006/aneri.html --------------------------------------- From alberto.pelissero at UNITO.IT Thu Mar 23 06:57:52 2006 From: alberto.pelissero at UNITO.IT (alberto pelissero) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 06 07:57:52 +0100 Subject: apologies Message-ID: <161227077701.23782.6752319914038080354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for having sent to the list a personal message.Sorry,Alberto Pelissero From ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Mar 23 17:42:29 2006 From: ph2046 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul G. Hackett) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 06 09:42:29 -0800 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode In-Reply-To: <002301c64e9a$8a525720$1607b59d@elte.hu> Message-ID: <161227077708.23782.12279780708389049215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 5:55 PM +0100 3/23/06, Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >Yes, combining diacritics are a possible solution, but it is much >nicer and more stable (and easier to convert) when we have a single >character representing one phoneme (letter). This may be true, but such an approach would not conform to the principles of Unicode, since the standard aims at encoding characters (abstract linguistic components) and not glyphs (surface / appearance forms). See: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/#CharactersVsGlyphs FYI, early versions of the standard did encode some composite forms, but these have since been deprecated. Paul Hackett Columbia University From arlo.griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Mar 23 11:22:27 2006 From: arlo.griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 06 12:22:27 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Vedic Accents and Unicode Message-ID: <161227077703.23782.13958779293734071145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded on behalf of Kengo Harimoto. Arlo Griffiths Begin forwarded message: > From: Kengo Harimoto > Date: March 23, 2006 10:59:33 AM GMT+01:00 > To: Arlo Griffiths > Subject: Re: Vedic Accents and Unicode > >> But in the present Unicode standard (as far as I know) the >> underring characters are not defined. >> > > They have COMBINING RING BELOW (unicode 0325/UTF8 CCA5). I can > produce l? and r? using the latter. Some fonts, applications, or > displaying systems may not display properly, but that's a different > issue. > > As for Devanagari Vedic accents, there are at least Unicode 0951 > (DEVANAGARI STRESS SIGN UDATTA) like in ?? and 0952 (DEVANAGARI > STRESS SIGN ANUDATTA) ??. > > -- > kengo harimoto From ferenc.ruzsa at ELTE.HU Thu Mar 23 16:55:02 2006 From: ferenc.ruzsa at ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 06 17:55:02 +0100 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode Message-ID: <161227077706.23782.18152465349984730344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, combining diacritics are a possible solution, but it is much nicer and more stable (and easier to convert) when we have a single character representing one phoneme (letter). Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: ferenc.ruzsa at elte.hu -----Eredeti ?zenet----- Felad?: "Arlo Griffiths" C?mzett: Elk?ldve: 2006. m?rcius 23. 12:22 T?rgy: Fwd: Vedic Accents and Unicode > Forwarded on behalf of Kengo Harimoto. > > Arlo Griffiths > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Kengo Harimoto >> Date: March 23, 2006 10:59:33 AM GMT+01:00 >> To: Arlo Griffiths >> Subject: Re: Vedic Accents and Unicode >> >>> But in the present Unicode standard (as far as I know) the underring >>> characters are not defined. >>> >> >> They have COMBINING RING BELOW (unicode 0325/UTF8 CCA5). I can produce >> l? and r? using the latter. Some fonts, applications, or displaying >> systems may not display properly, but that's a different issue. >> >> As for Devanagari Vedic accents, there are at least Unicode 0951 >> (DEVANAGARI STRESS SIGN UDATTA) like in ?? and 0952 (DEVANAGARI STRESS >> SIGN ANUDATTA) ??. >> >> -- >> kengo harimoto > From ferenc.ruzsa at ELTE.HU Thu Mar 23 18:05:30 2006 From: ferenc.ruzsa at ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 06 19:05:30 +0100 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode Message-ID: <161227077710.23782.1950606385190963590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was referring to the r/l underring characters, not to vedic accents in Devanagari. Sorry for having been unclear. Ferenc -----Eredeti ?zenet----- Felad?: "Paul G. Hackett" C?mzett: Elk?ldve: 2006. m?rcius 23. 18:42 T?rgy: Re: Vedic Accents and Unicode > At 5:55 PM +0100 3/23/06, Ferenc Ruzsa wrote: >>Yes, combining diacritics are a possible solution, but it is much nicer >>and more stable (and easier to convert) when we have a single character >>representing one phoneme (letter). > > This may be true, but such an approach would not conform to the principles > of Unicode, since the standard aims at encoding characters (abstract > linguistic components) and not glyphs (surface / appearance forms). See: > > http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/#CharactersVsGlyphs > > FYI, early versions of the standard did encode some composite forms, but > these have since been deprecated. > > Paul Hackett > Columbia University > From sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA Fri Mar 24 13:30:05 2006 From: sanjay.kumar at MAIL.MCGILL.CA (Sanjay Kumar) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 06 08:30:05 -0500 Subject: Vedic Accents and Unicode In-Reply-To: <36A4A8CE-C294-48F6-9A54-F54E371AA766@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227077712.23782.13954972779461401832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a side note: The vertical line above a letter (??) represents svarita (??????), not udaatta (??????); the latter is never marked and all unmarked letters before ?????? (??) are identified as udaatta. Sanjay Kumar Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University, Montreal, Canada -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Arlo Griffiths Sent: March 23, 2006 6:22 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: Fwd: Vedic Accents and Unicode Forwarded on behalf of Kengo Harimoto. Arlo Griffiths Begin forwarded message: > From: Kengo Harimoto > Date: March 23, 2006 10:59:33 AM GMT+01:00 > To: Arlo Griffiths > Subject: Re: Vedic Accents and Unicode > >> But in the present Unicode standard (as far as I know) the >> underring characters are not defined. >> > > They have COMBINING RING BELOW (unicode 0325/UTF8 CCA5). I can > produce l? and r? using the latter. Some fonts, applications, or > displaying systems may not display properly, but that's a different > issue. > > As for Devanagari Vedic accents, there are at least Unicode 0951 > (DEVANAGARI STRESS SIGN UDATTA) like in ?? and 0952 (DEVANAGARI > STRESS SIGN ANUDATTA) ??. > > -- > kengo harimoto From eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 27 09:40:46 2006 From: eastwestcultural at YAHOO.COM (Dean Anderson) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 06 01:40:46 -0800 Subject: New software package for Sanskrit text generation Message-ID: <161227077714.23782.6961506043945600400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of this software and/or have any comments about its utility? Dean Anderson East West Cultural Institute SOUTHERN NEWS - TAMIL NADU Mar 25, 2006 New software package for Sanskrit text generation Saturday March 25 2006 00:00 IST TIRUCHY: In a major breakthrough in Sanskrit and Vedic electronic text generation, two senior executives of BHEL, Tiruchy, A V Jagannadha Rao and S Ravikrishnamoorthy, both of whom are also the developers of the versatile software NTRANS, have produced an advanced package. According to a press release, the new software is capable of automatically performing the ?sandhi? (conjunction) - both ?akshara sandhi? and ?svara \n sandhi? - in accordance with the rules of Sanskrit or Vedic \n grammar. The package also facilitates text generation for \n recitation in the basic form of ?pada paatha? (basic \n word-by-word) or in any of the advanced forms of ?krama? \n (two-word), ?jata? (forward and reverse two-word) and \n ?ghana? (complex three-word) conjunction. Books in \n Sanskrit or Grantha scripts that have been published so far \n contain only the basic word-by-word text. The new software has been \n developed in accordance with the Krishna Yajurveda Taittiriya \n Samhita. The authors of the package conducted a \n lecture-cum-demonstration of the software at the Sringeri Sankara \n Mutt, Srirangam. The software has been developed in \n accordance with the Krishna Yajurveda Taittiriya \n Samhita \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n NEW RSS-FEED on Transcendental \nMeditation (TM) and related programs http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/NDMeditation/rss \n ------------------------------",1] ); //--> ?akshara sandhi? and ?svara sandhi? - in accordance with the rules of Sanskrit or Vedic grammar. The package also facilitates text generation for recitation in the basic form of ?pada paatha? (basic word-by-word) or in any of the advanced forms of ?krama? (two-word), ?jata? (forward and reverse two-word) and ?ghana? (complex three-word) conjunction. Books in Sanskrit or Grantha scripts that have been published so far contain only the basic word-by-word text. The new software has been developed in accordance with the Krishna Yajurveda Taittiriya Samhita. The authors of the package conducted a lecture-cum-demonstration of the software at the Sringeri Sankara Mutt, Srirangam. The software has been developed in accordance with the Krishna Yajurveda Taittiriya Samhita --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates. From pf at CIX.CO.UK Mon Mar 27 09:44:00 2006 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (pf) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 06 10:44:00 +0100 Subject: MA Scholarship Message-ID: <161227077716.23782.9493004326040216926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jain Studies MA Scholarship 2006 This award is sponsored by the Jain Spirit Magazine. The total value of this scholarship is ?5000, and it is awarded to students registered at SOAS for an MA degree with a major in Jaina Studies. Applications by letter, accompanied by a short CV, should be submitted by e-mail to the Centre of Jaina Studies at the Department of the Study of Religions at SOAS, University of London. Contact: Dr Peter Fl?gel jainstudies at soas.ac.uk From hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE Mon Mar 27 11:15:32 2006 From: hahn.m at T-ONLINE.DE (Michael Hahn) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 06 13:15:32 +0200 Subject: Address of Dr. Tissa Rajapatirana Message-ID: <161227077718.23782.5320503333389812112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, especially those living in Australia, Can anyone provide me with the current postal and --- if existing --- e-mail address of Dr. Tissa Rajapatirana? He will certainly be pleased to learn that finally the the first part of a new edition of Aryasura's Jatakamala (on which we worked together in Bonn 30 years ago) has just been released: Aryasuras Jatakamala. Philologische Untersuchungen zu den Legenden 1 bis 15. Teil 1: Einleitung, Textausgabe, Anh?nge, Register. Von Albrecht HANISCH. Marburg 2005. lxxxvii, 255 S. ? 48,00. ISBN 3-923776-43-6 (Indica et Tibetica 43.1) Aryasuras Jatakamala. Philologische Untersuchungen zu den Legenden 1 bis 15. Teil 2: Philologischer Kommentar. Von Albrecht HANISCH. Marburg 2005. ix, 409 S. ? 52,00. (Indica et Tibetica 43.2) A Table of Content is available under www.iet-verlag.de Michael Hahn Prof. Dr. Michael Hahn Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie FB 10, Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Wilhelm-Roepke-Str. 6 D-35032 Marburg Germany Tel.: +49-6421-282-4740 or 4741 Fax: +49-6421-282-4995 E-mail: hahnm at staff.uni-marburg.de URL: staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~hahnm From veerankp at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 27 12:28:52 2006 From: veerankp at GMAIL.COM (veeranarayana Pandurangi) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 06 17:58:52 +0530 Subject: library acquisions Message-ID: <161227077721.23782.1309993532499032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear collegues, I want to know the procedures of acquisitions of books in the libraries around the world; to be precise, whether they buy multiple copies of a given title or a single copy especially when a library is in initial stage? veeranarayana pandurangi JR Rajasthan Sanskrit University, Jaipur. From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 28 13:56:35 2006 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 06 08:56:35 -0500 Subject: help with Savarkar poem Message-ID: <161227077722.23782.9724575398801602181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am getting some tape recordings I made in Pune, or rather then Poona, back in 1970 into order before donating them to the Library of Congress. Among them is a young lady singing a setting of a poem of V.D. Savarkar of his longing for India from across the sea, and the dejected state of his motherland. The refrain in Sanskrit in Naya punar api mAm. I believe it is a translation, not an original poem in Sanskrit. I have of course access to Savakar's complete works here, but would be grateful if anyone can tell me offhand, saving me perhaps a prolonged search: 1. What is the title and/or first line of the Marathi original? 2. Is the translation by S. himself or by another? 3. If the latter, where is it published? 4. Where was either the original or the trans. originally published? I am also posting this to the Maharashtra Studies Group. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Mar 28 14:36:28 2006 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Deshpande, Madhav) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 06 09:36:28 -0500 Subject: help with Savarkar poem Message-ID: <161227077724.23782.16816025957154729746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The famous poem by Savarkar begins with the Marathi words: ne majasi ne parat maatRbhUmIlA, sAgarA prAN taLamaLalA "O Ocean, take me back to my Motherland. My soul is in torment." If you need the full wording, I can probably find it somewhere in my collection of Marathi books. Madhav M. Deshpande -----Original Message----- From: Indology on behalf of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Tue 3/28/2006 8:56 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: help with Savarkar poem I am getting some tape recordings I made in Pune, or rather then Poona, back in 1970 into order before donating them to the Library of Congress. Among them is a young lady singing a setting of a poem of V.D. Savarkar of his longing for India from across the sea, and the dejected state of his motherland. The refrain in Sanskrit in Naya punar api mAm. I believe it is a translation, not an original poem in Sanskrit. I have of course access to Savakar's complete works here, but would be grateful if anyone can tell me offhand, saving me perhaps a prolonged search: 1. What is the title and/or first line of the Marathi original? 2. Is the translation by S. himself or by another? 3. If the latter, where is it published? 4. Where was either the original or the trans. originally published? I am also posting this to the Maharashtra Studies Group. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Tue Mar 28 17:39:04 2006 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 06 09:39:04 -0800 Subject: help with Savarkar poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077729.23782.12772455374492739795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen, Madhav has answered your first question already. The poem is generally referred to with "saagaraa praa.na ta.lama.lalaa." That is also likely to be its title at the time of its first publication. The Skt tr is most likely to have been done by Dr. G. B. Palsule/Pa.lasule, in whose recent death Pune has lost one of its great Sanskritists. You may find the tr in Palsule's book Agnija, which consists of tr of Savarkar poems. The original publication of the tr could have taken place in an issue of the (defunct) Skt periodical Bhaaratavaa.nii. Another less likely possibility is the Skt periodical ;Saaradaa, which, fortunately, is still being published, albeit irregularly. The original was written in 1906 as I recall, but anytime between 1906 and 1910 is possible. A commercial recording of the original as a chorus song was done by Lata Mangeshkar and her siblings in the late 1960s. It is a little too ornamental for the heart-touching simplicity of the poem in my view. A rendition by the great Marathi music director, the late Sudhir Phadke, is more in keeping with the poem's feeling and is, as far as I know, found only in private collections. The movie on Savarkar's life produced by Sudhir Phadke in the late 1990s and released in 2001/2002 contains another (I believe, partial) musical rendering. ashok aklujkar From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 28 14:52:48 2006 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 06 09:52:48 -0500 Subject: help with Savarkar poem Message-ID: <161227077727.23782.645020603363425215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, Thanks, no need to search yet. I think there are at least indexes of first lines in each vol. of his collected works, if not a consolidated index. I can probably find it OK. Allen >>> mmdesh at UMICH.EDU 03/28/06 9:36 AM >>> The famous poem by Savarkar begins with the Marathi words: ne majasi ne parat maatRbhUmIlA, sAgarA prAN taLamaLalA "O Ocean, take me back to my Motherland. My soul is in torment." If you need the full wording, I can probably find it somewhere in my collection of Marathi books. Madhav M. Deshpande -----Original Message----- From: Indology on behalf of Allen W Thrasher Sent: Tue 3/28/2006 8:56 AM To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Subject: help with Savarkar poem I am getting some tape recordings I made in Pune, or rather then Poona, back in 1970 into order before donating them to the Library of Congress. Among them is a young lady singing a setting of a poem of V.D. Savarkar of his longing for India from across the sea, and the dejected state of his motherland. The refrain in Sanskrit in Naya punar api mAm. I believe it is a translation, not an original poem in Sanskrit. I have of course access to Savakar's complete works here, but would be grateful if anyone can tell me offhand, saving me perhaps a prolonged search: 1. What is the title and/or first line of the Marathi original? 2. Is the translation by S. himself or by another? 3. If the latter, where is it published? 4. Where was either the original or the trans. originally published? I am also posting this to the Maharashtra Studies Group. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From Scharf at BROWN.EDU Wed Mar 29 02:53:21 2006 From: Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 06 21:53:21 -0500 Subject: help with Savarkar poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077731.23782.8409397722889563756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Inquiries regarding our previous advertisement and discussion with the Brown University administration lead us to revise our advertisement for a Sanskrit fellowship as follows. The fellowship now offers more money per month instead of tuition for one course and is open to post-docs. In either case it begins in September rather than in the summer. Please bring it to the attention of qualified candidates. Sanskrit fellowship The Sanskrit Library Project at Brown University invites graduate students or post-docs with expertise in Sanskrit, and comfort working with data files to apply for a fellowship for the fall to join an NSF-funded project to develop an internet-based digital Sanskrit library. The project integrates Sanskrit digital archives, digital lexica, and linguistic software in a richly inter-linked environment to facilitate philological and linguistic research. The fellowship provides a stipend of $1,977/mo for four and a half months beginning September 1, plus health and dental insurance. Particularly desirable skills include experience with Sanskrit lexicography and grammar, digital data files, and computational methods. Interested persons are requested to send a letter of application, c.v., relevant papers, and two recommendations to Peter Scharf, Department of Classics, Brown University, PO Box 1856, Providence, RI 02912, USA by April 1. Application materials may be emailed to scharf at brown.edu. posted at: http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/SanskritLibrary/AssistantAd2.htm See also http://sanskritlibrary.org/ -- ************************************************** Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept Brown University PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/Scharf/ http://sanskritlibrary.org/ ************************************************** From Scharf at BROWN.EDU Wed Mar 29 03:15:06 2006 From: Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 06 22:15:06 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Fellowship Message-ID: <161227077733.23782.5824771463398465798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Inquiries regarding our previous advertisement and discussion with the Brown University administration lead us to revise our advertisement for a Sanskrit fellowship as follows. The fellowship now offers more money per month instead of tuition for one course and is open to post-docs. In either case it begins in September rather than in the summer. Please bring it to the attention of qualified candidates. (Again with the correct header!) Sanskrit fellowship The Sanskrit Library Project at Brown University invites graduate students or post-docs with expertise in Sanskrit, and comfort working with data files to apply for a fellowship for the fall to join an NSF-funded project to develop an internet-based digital Sanskrit library. The project integrates Sanskrit digital archives, digital lexica, and linguistic software in a richly inter-linked environment to facilitate philological and linguistic research. The fellowship provides a stipend of $1,977/mo for four and a half months beginning September 1, plus health and dental insurance. Particularly desirable skills include experience with Sanskrit lexicography and grammar, digital data files, and computational methods. Interested persons are requested to send a letter of application, c.v., relevant papers, and two recommendations to Peter Scharf, Department of Classics, Brown University, PO Box 1856, Providence, RI 02912, USA by April 1. Application materials may be emailed to scharf at brown.edu. posted at: http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/SanskritLibrary/AssistantAd2.htm See also http://sanskritlibrary.org/ -- ************************************************** Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept Brown University PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/Scharf/ http://sanskritlibrary.org/ ************************************************** From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 29 08:13:28 2006 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (jagan nadh) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 06 08:13:28 +0000 Subject: Manuscripts found Message-ID: <161227077735.23782.18033029288236729659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegues Thousand year old manuscripts were found from Trichur Kerala .details can be viewd in the following link http://www.hindu.com/2006/03/27/stories/2006032704320700.htm JAGANADH.G M.A N.L.P RASHTRIYA SANSKRIT VIDYAPEETHA THIRUPATI ANDHRAPRADESH INDIA E-MAIL- navadipanyaya at hotmail.com/jaganadhg at gmail.com From e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK Wed Mar 29 14:23:19 2006 From: e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 06 15:23:19 +0100 Subject: Jain icon representing the released spirit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227077740.23782.12648089686231492836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Julia many thanks about this - sorry to hear about your knee. I wish you all the best with it. I was hoping to see you in London, but I got quite a virulent flu the day before the conference and I was wiped out in bed for a couple of days so I could not make it. I would have enjoyed learning more about Jainism as I do not know a lot about it. I trust the conference was good and that you were happy with the proceedings there. It's nice to see your name popping up here and there all the time... Re this particular siddha image: I always liked it immensely and I now have it on the homepage of my new website www.divinity.cam.ac.uk.modernyoga (The site should be uploaded before the end of the week) So I wanted the info for two reasons: my own interest and to add some notes / references about it in the 'site info' page of the website. I will be delighted to receive any information or comment you have about such images when you get the time - no special hurry. With all best wishes, Julia, hope to see you soon Best regards Elizabeth --On Wednesday, March 29, 2006 15:47 +0200 Julia Hegewald wrote: Dear Elizabeth, I have been moving about a lot between India, UK and Canada and have not been able to reply. I'm just going to have my knee operated and will be in hospital for a while but once I'm out I will try to send you some material on Siddha representations. I hope it can wait that long. All best wishes, Julia. From e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK Wed Mar 29 14:24:50 2006 From: e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 06 15:24:50 +0100 Subject: sorry Message-ID: <161227077742.23782.11856962572565731988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry as you will have gathered my personal message to Julia was posted to the list. Regards EDM Dr Elizabeth De Michelis University of Cambridge Faculty of Divinity Tel +44-(0)1223-763015 West Road Fax +44-(0)1223-763014 Cambridge, UK CB3 9BS From Julia.Hegewald at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Mar 29 13:47:22 2006 From: Julia.Hegewald at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Julia Hegewald) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 06 15:47:22 +0200 Subject: Jain icon representing the released spirit In-Reply-To: <2640443.1142104480@dhcp118.divinity.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227077737.23782.13104023961063446782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Elizabeth, I have been moving about a lot between India, UK and Canada and have not been able to reply. I'm just going to have my knee operated and will be in hospital for a while but once I'm out I will try to send you some material on Siddha representations. I hope it can wait that long. All best wishes, Julia.