From H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Sep 5 09:42:57 2005 From: H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 05 11:42:57 +0200 Subject: Review Hart of Kavya in South India Message-ID: <161227076657.23782.5301330536890584673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A propos G. Hart's review of the book Kavya in South India : Old Tamil Cankam Poetry (Gonda Indological Studies X), Groningen 2001. Though it is generally unwise to write a reaction on a review in this case I feel I have to make an exception because in JAOS 124/1 (2004, appeared 2005), 180-184, Hart has managed to present what looks like a travesty of my book In Kavya in South India I argue that the current dating of Old Tamil Cankam poetry in the first centuries of our era is untenable. Instead, I try to show that the literary corpus dates only from the eighth or ninth century and that it consists mainly of adaptations in Tamil of certain genres known from Kavya literature and in particular genres written in Prakrit or Apabhramsa. According Hart the new, late, date of Cankam poetry I propose is based on four "claims". One of these claims is, in Hart's words, that the poems have the same style as Sanskrit prose Kavya and so must be derivative (my italics). Indeed, presented in this way my argument must sound nonsensical. However, Hart does not mention that before that I have tried to show that the scenes of the poems are fictive. More in particular I have argued that at the time of their composition the so-called heroic poems aimed to evoke scenes from a heroic past in which bards wandered from court to court in search of liberal patrons. These poems are to be dated after the period they describe, in the same way as the so-called love poems originate in a milieu far removed, physically as well as mentally, from the little villages depicted in them. This removes the basis on which the current early dating of Cankam poetry relies. This dating is mainly based on the assumption that the poems describe a contemporary society. This part of my argument is tucked away by Hart in the rather vague sentence that I spend "some time discussing the esthetic implications of akam (interior or love) poems, and claim they constitute a condescending and often sarcastic urban and sophisticated take on village live" (p. 180). After this, the agreement between the Tamil poems and Sanskrit Kavya appears in quite a different light. As the points of agreement are not restricted to the style of the poems but involve whole genres - village poetry (Sattasai) in Akam, minor operatic scenes (lasya) in the Kalittokai and festival songs (carcari) in the Paripatal - the possibility of independent origination becomes unlikely. Given the above conclusion that Cankam poetry is most probably to be dated much later than has been done so far, in the case of borrowing the role of Tamil as the source cannot be taken for granted. In trying to place the origin of Cankam poetry among the Pandyas of the eighth or ninth century, important information has been drawn from the inscriptions of that dynasty. All that Hart has to say on this point is to suggest some corrections on my translations of some phrases from the inscriptions. He says nothing about the main argument, namely that Tamil in Cankam poetry has exactly the same function as it has in the Pandya inscriptions, and only in the inscriptions of that dynasty. Twice Hart refers to a "great deal of evidence ... [which] suggest [s] strongly that the poems were composed between the first and the third centuries A.D." (p. 180 and 183), implying that my ideas would be completely out of touch with the actual state of affairs. On p. 183 he presents some of this "evidence". It includes the fact that Iravatham Mahadevan has shown that writing was used in that period by the common people in Tamil Nadu. Apart from the fact that Mahadevan is obviously carried away in his enthousiasm here (as I will show in a review of Mahadevan's book, to appear in ZDMG, some of the stone masons responsible for the inscriptions could not write or read at all), the main question is of course what all this means. Writing was also known at Asoka's court but as far as we know it did not lead to the production of literary works. Secondly, the names of some "Cankam" kings appear in early inscriptions. A "classic" case is of course the identification of the Irumporai kings mentioned in the Pugalur inscriptions (2nd century) with three generations of kings of that dynasty mentioned in the Patirruppattu. The identification keeps cropping up, most recently in Eva Wilden's review of my book in WZKS XLVI (2002), p. 124. I wonder if anyone has recently cared to have a look at the two sets of names, in which Ko Atan Cel Irumporai of the inscriptions corresponds to Celva-k-katunko Vali-y Atan of the Patirruppattu, Perunkatunkon to Perun-ceral Irumporai and Katunkon Ilankatunko to Ilan-ceral Irumporai. I for one fail to see any resemblance, but even if the names had been the same, what does this prove? Do we date Kalidasa in the Sunga period because in his Malavikagnimitra he has the names of the kings of that dynasty right? In fact, the same question applies to Hart's argument that the poems describe trade with the Romans. For so does the seventh-century writer Dandin in his Dasakumaracarita. I was somewhat surprised to see that Hart includes among the evidence the so-called Gajabahu synchronism, which has been relegated to the world of literary legend already more than twenty years ago by Obeyesekere. I was equally amazed by Hart's argument that the "poems name hundreds of poets and kings and string them together in a narrative that is chronologically coherent." For one thing this has nothing to do with the absolute dating of the poetry. Secondly, the "narrative" referred to is not found in the poems but in the later colophons. Furthermore, Hart uses a strange argument here. According to him it would be extremely unlikely that so many names could have been remembered for eight centuries, a reservation he does not make in the case of the transmission of the thousands of poems! Finally, Hart refers to some of the linguistic peculiarities in the poems, such as the rare use of Sanskrit loanwords in the poems and the absence of the present tense marker -kinr-. In this connection I would like to refer to my article "The Nature of the Language of Cankam Poetry", which has appeared South Indian Horizons (Felicitation Volume for Francois Gros), Pondicherry 2004, 365-387. Not that I claim to have solved the language problem in that article. What I have tried to do, is to deal with the language as a literary language, which might have been fashioned, or created, in accordance with a specific literary function. Of course I should not expect Hart graciously to connect two findings which I myself indeed presented in separation. Nonetheless, where he casts doubt on my identification of the poems of the Kalittokai as examples of lasyas, he could have mentioned the fact that I am not the only one to make that identification. In fact, as I have tried to show, the same identification appears to have been made by the persons who were responsible for the compilation of the Kalittokai. When all is said and done there does not seem to be real evidence for dating Cankam poetry in the beginning of our era. In addition to that, the claim that Cankam poetry is the product of a native Tamil culture undiluted by Sanskrit influences will most likely have to be revised. In a review of my book in his recent study of the Purananuru P. Marudhanayagam, the director of the Pondicherry Institute of Language and Culture, begins by calling me a traitor (utpakaivar) of the Tamil cause. In this way he makes it abundantly clear where he stands. This cannot be said of Hart, who professes to have proceeded carefully and dispassionately. Herman Tieken From Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK Wed Sep 7 15:32:49 2005 From: Peter.Bisschop at ED.AC.UK (Peter Bisschop) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 05 16:32:49 +0100 Subject: Hamburg professorship Message-ID: <161227076659.23782.2191989469066854533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Copied from http://www.verwaltung.uni-hamburg.de/stellenangebote/profs/ indologie.html -------- Im Fachbereich Fachbereich Orientalistik -Asien-Afrika-Institut - ist ab 01.10.2006 eine Stelle UNIVERSIT?TSPROFESSOR DER BESOLDUNGSGRUPPE W2 f?r "Indologie" zu besetzen / Kennziffer 1859/W2 Die Universit?t will den Anteil von Frauen an den Professuren erh?hen. Sie ist deshalb an Bewerbungen von Frauen besonders interessiert. Frauen werden nach dem Hamburgischen Hochschulgesetz bei gleichwertiger Qualifikation vorrangig ber?cksichtigt. Aufgabengebiet: Vertretung des Faches Indologie in der Forschung und Lehre. Der Forschungsschwerpunkt der Bewerberinnen/Bewerber muss auf dem Gebiet des indischen Buddhismus liegen und durch wissenschaftliche Publikationen dokumentiert sein, aus denen Vertrautheit mit Prim?rquellen des indischen Buddhismus, auch in ihren au?erindischen ?berlieferungsformen (tibetische und chinesische ?bersetzungen) hervorgeht. Von der/dem erfolgreichen Bewerberin/Bewerber wird Bereitschaft zur regionen?bergreifenden Zusammenarbeit im Asien-Afrika-Institut, vor allem im Hinblick auf den Buddhismus, erwartet. Lehrverpflichtung: 8 Lehrveranstaltungsstunden Einstellungsvoraussetzungen: Gem?? ? 15 Hamburgisches Hochschulgesetz. Die Universit?t Hamburg legt auch auf die Qualit?t der Lehre besonderen Wert. Deshalb sind Lehrerfahrungen und Vorstellungen zur Lehre darzulegen. Schwerbehinderte haben Vorrang vor gesetzlich nicht bevorrechtigten Bewerberinnen und Bewerbern gleicher Eignung, Bef?higung und fachlicher Leistung. Bewerbungen mit tabellarischem Lebenslauf, vorerst nur Schriften- und Lehrverzeichnis und eine Darlegung der Lehrerfahrung sowie der Vorstellungen zur Lehre werden unter Angabe der Kennziffer bis zum 18.11.2005 erbeten an den Pr?sidenten der Universit?t Hamburg, Referat Personal & Organisation -631.6-, Moorweidenstr. 18, 20148 Hamburg. Es wird gebeten, f?r Ihre Bewerbungen keine Originalunterlagen einzureichen. Aus Kostengr?nden werden ?bersandte Unterlagen nicht zur?ckgesandt, sondern nach Abschluss des Verfahrens vernichtet. Eine R?cksendung erfolgt nur, wenn ein ausreichend frankierter und adressierter R?ckumschlag beigef?gt ist. 1 Das Verfahren nach ? 14 Abs. 1 HmbHG ist durchgef?hrt worden. 2 Ver?ffentlicht in: ?Die Zeit? am 18.08.2005. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Sep 9 10:22:44 2005 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 05 06:22:44 -0400 Subject: Position in South Asia Media Studies at the University of Michigan Message-ID: <161227076662.23782.3644312041969248559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am forwarding the following ad for a position in South Asia Media Studies at the University of Michigan. Please circulate it to interested individuals. All correspondence regarding the position should be directed to the address given in the ad, and not to me personally. Thanks. Madhav M. Deshpande University of Michigan The Department of Screen Arts & Cultures and the Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at the University of Michigan invite applications for a tenure-track position in South Asian Media Studies, beginning in September 2006. Appointment is possible at any rank. A variety of sub-fields within South Asian film and television studies are possible. A candidate should be able to teach courses from introductory undergraduate lecture courses through graduate seminars, to supervise doctoral dissertations, and to participate actively in department programs as well as in area studies initiatives within a university community that encourages interdisciplinary efforts. Proficiency in at least two relevant languages is an advantage. We seek candidates who share a commitment to historically grounded scholarship that is both rigorous and original and who are drawn to the intellectual opportunities afforded by programs of significant contextual depth and theoretical sophistication. A Ph.D. in media/film studies or a related field is preferred. The University of Michigan is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply. Applicants should provide a CV, letters of recommendation, writing samples, evidence of teaching excellence and a research statement. The University is supportive of the needs of dual career couples. Review of applications will begin on 15 October and continue until the position is filled. Applications must be received by 15 November.. Please send materials to South Asian Media Studies Search Committee, Department of Screen Arts & Cultures, The University of Michigan, 2512 Frieze Building, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285. From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Sep 10 17:07:44 2005 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 05 13:07:44 -0400 Subject: vaidurya Message-ID: <161227076664.23782.2867391738965102017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm wondering if someone on list can help me better identify a gem: vai??rya (vai.duurya or vaiDUrya). Monier-Williams gives only a "cat's-eye gem." The Chinese corresponding term in Buddhist texts is not univocal -- sometimes believed to be lapis lazuli, sometimes beryl, sometimes other things. Does this term have a single referent in Sanskrit, or did it apply to different gems at different times and places in India? Thank you in advance. Dan Lusthaus From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Sep 10 20:33:33 2005 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 05 16:33:33 -0400 Subject: vaidurya In-Reply-To: <00d401c5b62a$29d62970$95339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <161227076669.23782.1373257504794496210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, I think it is Cat's eye (Chrysoberyl). It is also known as Sutramani or Lahsunia. It is the stone for planet Ketu (i.e. Dragon's tail). Bindu Quoting Dan Lusthaus : > I'm wondering if someone on list can help me better identify a > gem: vai?????rya > (vai.duurya or vaiDUrya). Monier-Williams gives only a "cat's-eye > gem." The > Chinese corresponding term in Buddhist texts is not univocal -- > sometimes > believed to be lapis lazuli, sometimes beryl, sometimes other > things. Does > this term have a single referent in Sanskrit, or did it apply to > different > gems at different times and places in India? > > Thank you in advance. > > Dan Lusthaus > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Sep 10 18:46:13 2005 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 05 19:46:13 +0100 Subject: vaidurya Message-ID: <161227076666.23782.15040838906204494579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dan, You wrote: I'm wondering if someone on list can help me better identify a gem: vai??rya [snip] Does this term have a single referent in Sanskrit, or did it apply to different gems at different times and places in India? *** I looked into this some years ago and, as far as I could tell, it is just blue beryl, though it would not be surprising if if it occasionally denoted something else. The term in Tibetan is also understood as beryl. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Sun Sep 11 04:09:08 2005 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 05 21:09:08 -0700 Subject: vaidurya In-Reply-To: <00d401c5b62a$29d62970$95339c04@Dan> Message-ID: <161227076671.23782.2852863981321428217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Historically, vaiduurya and beryl are cognates. So, one should expect vaiduurya to stand for the same gem as beryl does. vaiduurya becomes velura in Prakrit, from which, through metathesis, we get Veruu.la, the name of the place where in greenish-bluish stone the amazing top-to-bottom temple is carved. ashok aklujkar From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Sep 11 08:34:59 2005 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 05 01:34:59 -0700 Subject: vaidurya Message-ID: <161227076676.23782.1866156438929374657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm sending the reply below on behalf of Sally Sutherland Goldman, who was unable to send it directly to Indology. Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann _____ Vaidurya can refer to either "cat's-eye beryl," or" lapis lazuli." Caty's-eye beryl is traditionally said to be produced on a mountain in Sri Lanka (Mt. Vidura). Vaidurya is sometimes translated as emerald, which is a green variety of beryl. Lapis Lazuli, of course, comes largely from the mountains of Afghanistan (in the region of the Kokca River). See Mayrhofer, 1956-1980, vol. 3, p.267-68) and Apte s.v. See too, notes to the Ramayana translation (Pollock, notes to 3.30.9, LeFeber, notes to 4.13.5-8), (Goldman and Goldman, notes to 5.5.1.2-3,etc). Sally Sutherland Goldman _____ From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Sun Sep 11 14:50:55 2005 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 05 15:50:55 +0100 Subject: vaidurya In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050911013454.03d8eef8@calmail.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227076679.23782.4865460240445319644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Blue beryl. There's a detailed examination specifically on this issue in an article by Marianne Winder in the book "Studies on Indian Medical History" edited by Jan Meulenbeld and myself. (2nd edition published by Motilal Banarsidass.) Best, Dominik On Sun, 11 Sep 2005, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > I'm sending the reply below on behalf of Sally Sutherland Goldman, who was > unable to send it directly to Indology. > > Luis Gonz?lez-Reimann > _____ > > Vaidurya can refer to either "cat's-eye beryl," or" lapis lazuli." > Caty's-eye beryl is traditionally said to be produced on a mountain in Sri > Lanka (Mt. Vidura). Vaidurya is sometimes translated as emerald, which is a > green variety of beryl. Lapis Lazuli, of course, comes largely from the > mountains of Afghanistan (in the region of the Kokca River). See Mayrhofer, > 1956-1980, vol. 3, p.267-68) and Apte s.v. See too, notes to the Ramayana > translation (Pollock, notes to 3.30.9, LeFeber, notes to 4.13.5-8), (Goldman > and Goldman, notes to 5.5.1.2-3,etc). > > > Sally Sutherland Goldman > _____ > From r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ Sun Sep 11 05:48:03 2005 From: r.mahoney at ICONZ.CO.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 05 17:48:03 +1200 Subject: vaidurya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076674.23782.7180541860354494833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 16:09, Ashok Aklujkar wrote: > Historically, vaiduurya and beryl are cognates. So, one should expect > vaiduurya to stand for the same gem as beryl does. > > vaiduurya becomes velura in Prakrit, from which, through metathesis, we get > Veruu.la, the name of the place where in greenish-bluish stone the amazing > top-to-bottom temple is carved. For further refs on `veruliya' &c. see Edgerton BHSD, p. 509. Best' Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: indica-et-buddhica.org Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney[use"@"]iconz.co.nz From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Sep 12 11:57:31 2005 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 05 07:57:31 -0400 Subject: vaidurya Message-ID: <161227076682.23782.14770140047912798651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Stephen, Bindu, Ashok, Richard, Sally (via Luis) and Dominik for the many helpful suggestions and references. best, Dan From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Tue Sep 13 19:58:43 2005 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 05 20:58:43 +0100 Subject: Govinda Diksita Message-ID: <161227076684.23782.9306611044530391334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Raghavan's NCC, vol 6, p.198, the entry on Govinda Diksita makes reference to an article as follows For a traditional account of his life see IHQ. II.220-41. That's the Indian Historical Quarterly. But I've looked at IHQ 2, and there's nothing there about Gov. Dik. There *is* something about him in vol.6, according to the global index, but - drat - those pages are missing from the Cambridge UL copy of IHQ that I have been working with today. But the page numbers given for the vol.6 reference are not 220--41, and somehow I don't think it's the same reference. Does anyone know the correct reference for an article giving a trad. account of Govinda Diksita's life? This Govinda is the one who was a minister at Vijayanagara, then to the Nayak court at Tanjore, in the sixteenth and early seventeeth centuries. He wrote a work on music, the Sangitasudha. Many thanks in advance, Dominik From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Sep 14 10:26:07 2005 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 05 12:26:07 +0200 Subject: Govinda Diksita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076686.23782.1005175021480755366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Dienstag den, 13. September 2005, um 21:58, schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > In Raghavan's NCC, vol 6, p.198, the entry on Govinda Diksita makes > reference to an article as follows > > For a traditional account of his life see IHQ. II.220-41. > > That's the Indian Historical Quarterly. But I've looked at IHQ 2, and > there's nothing there about Gov. Dik. There *is* something about him in > vol.6, according to the global index, but - drat - those pages are > missing from the Cambridge UL copy of IHQ that I have been working with > today. But the page numbers given for the vol.6 reference are not 220--41, > and somehow I don't think it's the same reference. > > Does anyone know the correct reference for an article giving a trad. > account of Govinda Diksita's life? This Govinda is the one who was a > minister at Vijayanagara, then to the Nayak court at Tanjore, in the > sixteenth and early seventeeth centuries. He wrote a work on music, the > Sangitasudha. Just for the record: IHQ vol. 4, pp. 563-567 contains an article by C. S. Srinivasachari: "Progress in South Indian epigraphy". On pp. 566-567 the author shortly deals with the Tanjore Nayakas and mentions: "Details of his [Govindadiksita's] life are given in the Sahityaratnakara by his son ...]". This refers to Yajnanarayana(diksita): Sahityaratnakara. Peter Wyzlic From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 14 13:19:10 2005 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 05 14:19:10 +0100 Subject: Govinda Diksita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076689.23782.17282182087213707543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Peter. That's very useful. That's the bit of the journal that's missing in the Cambridge Univ. Library set. So there's only a very brief mention there, and this would seem not to be what Raghavan is referring to, which sounds longer. I'll see if I can get hold of the Sahityaratnakara. Many thanks again, Dominik On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Peter Wyzlic wrote: > Am Dienstag den, 13. September 2005, um 21:58, schrieb Dominik Wujastyk: > >> In Raghavan's NCC, vol 6, p.198, the entry on Govinda Diksita makes >> reference to an article as follows >> >> For a traditional account of his life see IHQ. II.220-41. >> >> That's the Indian Historical Quarterly. But I've looked at IHQ 2, and >> there's nothing there about Gov. Dik. There *is* something about him in >> vol.6, according to the global index, but - drat - those pages are missing >> from the Cambridge UL copy of IHQ that I have been working with today. But >> the page numbers given for the vol.6 reference are not 220--41, >> and somehow I don't think it's the same reference. >> >> Does anyone know the correct reference for an article giving a trad. >> account of Govinda Diksita's life? This Govinda is the one who was a >> minister at Vijayanagara, then to the Nayak court at Tanjore, in the >> sixteenth and early seventeeth centuries. He wrote a work on music, the >> Sangitasudha. > > Just for the record: IHQ vol. 4, pp. 563-567 contains an article by C. S. > Srinivasachari: "Progress in South Indian epigraphy". On pp. 566-567 the > author shortly deals with the Tanjore Nayakas and mentions: "Details of his > [Govindadiksita's] life are given in the Sahityaratnakara by his son ...]". > This refers to Yajnanarayana(diksita): Sahityaratnakara. > > Peter Wyzlic > From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Sep 14 21:59:17 2005 From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 05 16:59:17 -0500 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076700.23782.6471251610336384983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would be helpful if you would provide a bit more context -- when and where does your citation come from? In any event, although the word padminii is not used, the first story in K.semendra's Avadaanakalpalataa concerns a lust-maddened bull-elephant wreaking havoc while chasing down a female in heat. Perhaps something like this is the reference intended? Matthew Kapstein From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Sep 14 18:40:29 2005 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 05 18:40:29 +0000 Subject: Govinda Diksita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076692.23782.8104945258101447123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a wild guess: The reference in NCC 6 may have been adopted from the section on Govinda Diksita in: M. Krishnamachariar, History of Classical Sanskrit Literature (1937), p. 231, note 3: "For an elaborate account of his life, see N. K. Venkaesan on Govinda Diksita, AHQ, II, 220-241." Maybe someone at the NCC office didn't know what to do with "AHQ" and changed it into "IHQ". (But as far as I know, there is no "Venkatesan" among the contributors of the IHQ.) Of course, this begs the question: What could "AHQ" stand for? Well, perhaps the Journal of the Andhra Historical Research Society, which started as The quarterly journal of the Andhra Historical Research Society in 1926? Best regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Wed Sep 14 19:11:33 2005 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 05 21:11:33 +0200 Subject: Govinda Diksita=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0?= Message-ID: <161227076695.23782.2913971587280496902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >? I'll see if I can get hold of the >Sahityaratnakara. Perhaps the editor(s) and/or the translators of Govinda Diksita's Samgitasudha come up with some informations on the author: (1) Govinda DIkSita, SaMgItasUdhA, ed. by V. Raghavan, Madras 1940 (2) P. S. Sundaram Ayyar and Subrahmanya Sastri "SaMgItasUdhA, text and free translation" in: Journal of the Music Academy Madras 1, 1-2 (1930, 1932, 1933) [thus quoted from the bibliography in E. te Nijenhuis, Indian Music: History and Structure, Leiden/K?ln 1974 (Handbuch der Orientalistik II.6)] Hartmut Buescher From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Wed Sep 14 19:11:45 2005 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 05 21:11:45 +0200 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076698.23782.16977772374229212912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, about a king abducting a princess, I come across the following simile: jahaara raajatanayaaM gajaraa.d iva padminiim I do not know any mythological story about a king of elephants abducting a lotus-flower (of course, a possible meaning of padminii is "female elephant", but the male elephant usually do not abduct the female). Has somebody already come across this simile in kaavya, or such a story in any kathaa? Thank you, Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve BELGIUM Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Thu Sep 15 05:31:47 2005 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 05 07:31:47 +0200 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076703.23782.355925557033082202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >jahaara raajatanayaaM gajaraa.d iva padminiim Couldn't this simply mean 'like a mighty elephant [plucking] a lotus flower'? Elephants pulling up lotus flowers (to eat, I presume) is not an unusual image. Martin Gansten From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Thu Sep 15 07:22:21 2005 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 05 09:22:21 +0200 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050915073147.00b5d100@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227076705.23782.9544872010522897433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Matthew Kapstein wrote:] >It would be helpful if you would provide a bit more >context -- when and where does your citation come from? it is from the unpublished Jaiminiiyasa.mhitaa of the Brahmaa.n.dapuraa.na, a south-western "kaavya-kathaa" puraa.na from about 1150-1350 AD (contra my first attempt of dating in Proceedings of the DICSEP2, 2002), in the story of the conflict between the Hehayas and the Kosalas, an episode happening at the svaya.mvara of the daughter of the king of Videhas: athottasthau narendrANAM madhye hehayavardhanaH | jihIrSur hariNIM tUrNaM bhadrazreNyaH pratApavAn || tRNIkRtya nRpAn sarvAn kSaNena balagarvitaH | jahAra rAjatanayAM gajarAD iva padminIm || vikSobhya rAjasamitiM tarasA rAjaku?jaraH | dorbhyAM gRhitvA hariNIM nizcakrAma samAjataH ||6 > >In any event, although the word padminii is not used, >the first story in K.semendra's Avadaanakalpalataa >concerns a lust-maddened bull-elephant wreaking havoc >while chasing down a female in heat. Perhaps something >like this is the reference intended? > Thank you for the reference. I was also now thinking about the drama Kamaliniiraajaha.msa by Puur.nasarasvatii (active in Kerala in the beginning of the 14th century), which describes the love between the king of swans and a lotus flower of the Pampaa lake and in which the hero's rival is an elephant chief of the Vindhya mountain - however, here the furious elephant is stopped before being in position to abduct the flower. [Martin Gansten wrote] > >Couldn't this simply mean 'like a mighty elephant [plucking] a lotus >flower'? Elephants pulling up lotus flowers (to eat, I presume) is not an >unusual image. > >Martin Gansten Of course that could be well simply mean that, and the qualification of the gaja as raaj is justified by the play with the word raajaku?jara of the following verse. (in a previous /sikhari.nii verse, the princess was already presented: dvipAnAM mattAnAM mukham abhi madAndheva kariNI I shall thus try to find poetic examples for the image of the elephant pulling up lotus flowers. Thank you. [I wrote] >Dear List, > >about a king abducting a princess, I come across the following simile: > >jahaara raajatanayaaM gajaraa.d iva padminiim > >I do not know any mythological story about a king of elephants abducting a >lotus-flower (of course, a possible meaning of padminii is "female >elephant", but the male elephant usually do not abduct the female). >Has somebody already come across this simile in kaavya, or such a story in >any kathaa? > >Thank you, > >Dr. Christophe Vielle Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve BELGIUM Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Thu Sep 15 09:51:05 2005 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 05 09:51:05 +0000 Subject: Govinda Diksita Message-ID: <161227076709.23782.5312433640014435377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Having checked the respective volume, I can now confirm yesterday's guess: N. K. Venkatesam: "Govinda Deekshita : The minister of the Tanjore Nayak Kings." The quarterly journal of the Andhra Historical Research Society, vol. 2 (July, 1927), pp. 220-241. Best regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR Thu Sep 15 07:55:16 2005 From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean FEZAS) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 05 09:55:16 +0200 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants Message-ID: <161227076711.23782.10175727837942528603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The simile appears in the kumAra-saMbhava in the last verse of the third canto, where the mountain (himAlaya) carries home his daughter (umA) after the destruction of kAma by ziva. 3.76a sapadi mukulitAkSIM rudrasaMrambhabhItyA 3.76b duhitaram anukampyAm adrir AdAya dorbhyAm / 3.76c suragaja iva bibhrat padminIM dantalagnAM 3.76d pratipathagatir AsId vegadIrghIkRtAGgaH // "Just then the Mountain, having taken into his arms his daughter who deserved to be sympathized with and who had closed her eyes in fear of the anger of S'iva, went along his path, as does the elephant of the gods holding a lotus sticking to his tusk, with his body stretched to its full length on account of his great speed" (Kale's translation). Mallinatha says nothing about the suragaja and gives nalinIm as an equivalent of padminIm... It is difficult to suppose that later poets could have ignored this verse... J. Fezas (Langue et litt?rature sanskrite, Paris-3) > Message du 14/09/05 21:23 > De : "Christophe Vielle" > A : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Copie ? : > Objet : The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants > > Dear List, > > about a king abducting a princess, I come across the following simile: > > jahaara raajatanayaaM gajaraa.d iva padminiim > > I do not know any mythological story about a king of elephants abducting a > lotus-flower (of course, a possible meaning of padminii is "female > elephant", but the male elephant usually do not abduct the female). > Has somebody already come across this simile in kaavya, or such a story in > any kathaa? > > Thank you, > > Dr. Christophe Vielle > Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud > Institut orientaliste > Place Blaise Pascal 1 > B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve > BELGIUM > Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) > E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be > > From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Thu Sep 15 09:43:30 2005 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 05 11:43:30 +0200 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants In-Reply-To: <19551706.1126770916893.JavaMail.www@wwinf0802> Message-ID: <161227076714.23782.14187918446924174860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much, that is nice, and Vallabhadeva ad loc. (v. 75 ed. Murti/Janert) identifies the suragaja with Airaava.na, viz. the "royal" elephant of Indra: suragaja airaava.no vi.saa.nadh.rtaa.m naliniim udvahan yathaa pratipathagatir bhavaty evam adriraajo'bhuut P.S. read g.rhiitvaa in the extract I gave in my previous mail [Jean Fezas wrote] >The simile appears in the kumAra-saMbhava in the last verse of the third >canto, where the mountain (himAlaya) carries home his daughter (umA) after >the destruction of kAma by ziva. >3.76a sapadi mukulitAkSIM rudrasaMrambhabhItyA >3.76b duhitaram anukampyAm adrir AdAya dorbhyAm / >3.76c suragaja iva bibhrat padminIM dantalagnAM >3.76d pratipathagatir AsId vegadIrghIkRtAGgaH // > >"Just then the Mountain, having taken into his arms his daughter who >deserved to be sympathized with and who had closed her eyes in fear of the >anger of S'iva, went along his path, as does the elephant of the gods >holding a lotus sticking to his tusk, with his body stretched to its full >length on account of his great speed" (Kale's translation). Mallinatha >says nothing about the suragaja and gives nalinIm as an equivalent of >padminIm... > >It is difficult to suppose that later poets could have ignored this verse... >J. Fezas (Langue et litt??rature sanskrite, Paris-3) > Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve BELGIUM Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK Thu Sep 15 20:56:47 2005 From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 05 21:56:47 +0100 Subject: Govinda Diksita In-Reply-To: <43294409.31656.338CC7@localhost> Message-ID: <161227076717.23782.13299351052827771447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm infinitely grateful! Thank you so very much, Reinhold, Dominik On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, gruenendahl wrote: > Having checked the respective volume, I can now confirm > yesterday's guess: > > N. K. Venkatesam: > "Govinda Deekshita : The minister of the Tanjore Nayak Kings." > The quarterly journal of the Andhra Historical Research Society, > vol. 2 (July, 1927), pp. 220-241. > > Best regards > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > ******************************************************************** > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 G?ttingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 > gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Sep 16 16:16:51 2005 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 05 09:16:51 -0700 Subject: Govinda Diksita In-Reply-To: <432AEF2C.24206.18729B@localhost> Message-ID: <161227076722.23782.3635384921448207386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just want to take a few moments to thank Reinhold for his generosity and thoughtfulness in making this article available, diacritical problems notwithstanding. At the moment I have no need for the article, but the act of making it available is a model of scholarly generosity that points toward the community that , sometimes, we seem to forget exists. Thanks Reinhold! Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus of History, South Asian Studies & Comparative Religion University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195-3560 USA Co-editor, H-ASIA Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, gruenendahl wrote: > I've been asked for copies of the article on Govinda Diksita. Those > who have no access to > > The Quarterly Journal of the Andhra Historical Research Society, > vol. 2 (1927-28), pp. 220-241 > > may download scans of the article, together with an OCR-version in > Word-format, which is NOT PROOFREAD and should be used with > care, especially with regard to diacritics. > > The temporary address is: > > www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/temp.htm > > Please download "temp1.zip" from there (don't waste time with the > others, they are empty at present). > > Best regards > Reinhold Gr?nendahl > > > ******************************************************************** > > Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl > Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek > Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien > (Dept. of Indology) > > 37070 G?ttingen, Germany > Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 > Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 > gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de > > FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm > In English: > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm > > GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian > Languages > http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm > From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Sep 16 16:13:33 2005 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 05 16:13:33 +0000 Subject: Govinda Diksita Message-ID: <161227076719.23782.91593354872773105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been asked for copies of the article on Govinda Diksita. Those who have no access to The Quarterly Journal of the Andhra Historical Research Society, vol. 2 (1927-28), pp. 220-241 may download scans of the article, together with an OCR-version in Word-format, which is NOT PROOFREAD and should be used with care, especially with regard to diacritics. The temporary address is: www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/temp.htm Please download "temp1.zip" from there (don't waste time with the others, they are empty at present). Best regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Mon Sep 19 17:44:02 2005 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 05 10:44:02 -0700 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076730.23782.12572562712141111269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I recall, no reference has so far been made to the following in the responses so far given to help Dr. Vielle with his query: In Bhaagavata Puraa.na 8.2-3 (and possibly other sources) occurs the story of Gajendra-mok.sa (which is frequently referred to in making the point that God/Vi.s.nu protects his devotees in distress and is thus quite well-known). A king of elephants finds his leg/foot in the jaws of a graaha or nakra. No matter how hard he tries, he cannot extricate the leg/foot. He begins to pray to Vi.s.nu. As he sees Vi.s.nu approaching, he offers to him, even while he is in great distress, the lotus he has taken in his trunk (utk.sipya saambuja-karam ...). ashok aklujkar On 9/14/05 12:11 PM, "Christophe Vielle" wrote: > about a king abducting a princess, I come across the following simile: > > jahaara raajatanayaaM gajaraa.d iva padminiim > > I do not know any mythological story about a king of elephants abducting a > lotus-flower (of course, a possible meaning of padminii is "female > elephant", but the male elephant usually do not abduct the female). > Has somebody already come across this simile in kaavya, or such a story in > any kathaa? From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Sep 19 17:35:25 2005 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 05 12:35:25 -0500 Subject: Nyaya discussion list? Message-ID: <161227076728.23782.6895683200994148978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not to my knowledge but it will be interesting if you can start one forum ofr Nyaya discussin. Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]En nombre de Dominik Wujastyk Enviado el: Lunes, 19 de Septiembre de 2005 11:24 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Nyaya discussion list? Does there exist an online discussion list or forum for serious Nyaya studies? Many thanks, Dominik From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Sep 19 20:55:16 2005 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 05 13:55:16 -0700 Subject: H-ASIA: Murray Emeneau (Feb 24, 1904 - Aug 29, 2005) Message-ID: <161227076736.23782.1554860250879606913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following note was published today on H-ASIA and might be of interest to some members of the Indology list. Frank H-ASIA September 19, 2005 Obituary of Professor Murray Emeneau, Feb. 24, 1904 - Aug 29, 2005 (x-post University of California, Berkleyan) -------- Ed note: I have put together a bibliography of publications by Professor Emeneau, but there may be omissions, and I suspect the number of articles and chapters in volumes would be enormous. FFC ************************************************************************ Obituary Murray Emeneau 14 September 2005 Murray Barnson Emeneau, emeritus professor of linguistics and Sanskrit, died in his sleep on Aug. 29 at the age of 101, in his Berkeley home. He was an expert in "language areas" and the Dravidian languages of south and central India and founder of the Survey of California and Other Indian Languages. Born on Feb. 28, 1904, in Lunenberg, Nova Scotia, Emeneau, a Rhodes Scholar, received his Ph.D. at Yale University in 1931. He worked for several years as a lecturer and researcher in Sanskrit at Yale, where he was heavily influenced by Edward Sapir, one of the greatest linguists of the 20th century. On Sapir's suggestion, Emeneau went to India in 1936 to work on Toda, a non-literary Dravidian language. He stayed in India for three years, doing linguistic fieldwork on the Toda, Badaga, Kolami, and Kota languages. Emeneau was hired in the classics department at Berkeley in 1940 as an assistant professor of Sanskrit and general linguistics. He became an associate professor in 1943 and was promoted to full professor in 1946. He wrote 21 books and, by the time of his death, his other publications numbered in the triple digits. When Emeneau first went to India, no linguistic fieldwork on the non-literary Dravidian languages had been done. Emeneau created this field through work that includes grammars of Kolami and Toda and a three-volume Kota text. Another of Emeneau's major achievements in Dravidian studies is the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary, written with Thomas Burrow and first published in 1961. Emeneau is also generally seen as having initiated the modern field of "linguistic areas" in his 1956 article "India as a Linguistic Area," which was published in the issue of Language that honored Berkeley anthropologist Alfred L. Kroeber on his 80th birthday. Emeneau's work in this field continued with studies of mutual linguistic influences, including a 1962 book on Dravidian borrowings from Indo-Aryan. In the history of linguistics at Berkeley, he mediated between Kroeber's interest in "culture areas" and the larger-scale areal focus of Johanna Nichols, a professor of Slavic languages. He persuaded Berkeley to establish a Survey of California Indian Languages and a Department of Linguistics, which he chaired from 1953 to 1956. After a year's sabbatical, he resumed the post for one year. The Survey of California Indian Languages later became the Survey of California and Other Indian Languages, indirectly succeeding the Ethnographic and Linguistic Survey of California established by Kroeber in 1901. "It was and remains an immensely significant institution for the documentation of the indigenous languages of California and elsewhere in the United States outside Alaska and Hawaii," said Andrew Garrett, acting director of the survey and a Berkeley professor of linguistics. In the 1950s, '60s, and '70s, under the leadership of Mary Haas, a fellow student of Sapir's whom Emeneau hired, generations of graduate students documented words, grammatical structures, and texts in dozens of California languages, Garrett noted. Some of those languages have few or no remaining native speakers today, he added. Now, he said, the mission of the survey has expanded to include language documentation throughout the United States and in other parts of the Western hemisphere -- as well as numerous projects designed to make the results of that documentation accessible to native communities in California. "It is now probably the most important university archive of documentary material on the languages of the continental U.S.," Garrett said. Emeneau gave the Berkeley Faculty Research Lecture in 1956. On his retirement from the campus in 1971 he received its highest honor, the Berkeley Citation. Among his many other honors, Emeneau was the recipient of four honorary degrees, the Wilbur Lucius Cross Medal from Yale, and the Medal of Merit of the American Oriental Society. He was a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and the British Academy, and an honorary member of the Linguistic Society of India. He was the sole honorary member of the Philological Society, the oldest linguistic professional society in the English-speaking world. Emeneau is survived by a stepdaughter, Phyllis Savage, of Tustin. A campus memorial is tentatively planned for spring 2006. --Kathleen Maclay ------------------------------------------- A partial list of publications of the late Murray B. Emeneau Title Dravidian and Indian linguistics / M.B. Emeneau. Publisher Berkeley: University of California, Center for South Asia Studies, 1962. Title A union list of printed Indic texts and translations in American libraries / compiled by M. B. Emeneau, by the aid of a grant from the American Council Learned Societies. Publisher New York: Kraus Reprint Corp., 1967, c1935. Series American Oriental series ;v. 7. Note Reprint of the ed. published by American Oriental Society, New Haven, Conn. ISBN 0527026816 Title Dravidian studies : selected papers / by M.B. Emeneau. Publisher Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass, 1994. Series MLBD series in linguistics ;vol. 7] ISBN 8120808584 Title A Dravidian etymological dictionary by T. Burrow and M. B. Emeneau Publisher Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1961 Title Ritual structure and language structure of the Todas. Publisher Philadelphia, Oct. 1974. Series American Philosophical Society.Transactions, n.s.,v.64, pt.6 ISBN 0871696460 : Title Dravidian borrowings from Indo-Aryan, Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1962. Series University of California publications in linguistics;v. 26. Title Brahui and Dravidian comparative grammar. Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1962. Series University of California publications in linguistics; v. 27. Title Toda songs [edited by] M. B. Emeneau. Publisher Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1971. ISBN 0198151292 Title Toda grammar and texts. Publisher Philadelphia : American Philosophical Society, c1984. Series Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society ;v. 155. Title Kolami, a Dravidian language, by M. B. Emeneau. Edition [2d.ed.] Publisher Annamalainagar, Annamalai University, 1961. Series Annamalai University, Publications in linguistics, 2. Title Kota texts, pt. 1, by M.B. Emeneau. Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1944. Series University of California pubs in linguistics,v. 2, no. 1 Title Kota texts. Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1944-46. Description 2 v. Series University of California pubs in linguistics, v.2-3 Title Language and linguistic area : essays Publisher Stanford, Calif. : Stanford University Press, 1980. ISBN 0804710473 Title Sanskrit Sandhi and exercises Edition Second revised edition Publisher Berkeley: University of California Press, 1968 Title Jambhaladatta's version of the Vetalapancavinsati; a critical Sanskrit text in transliteration, with an introduction, and English translation, by M. B. Emeneau. Publisher New Haven, Conn. American oriental society, 1934. Series American Oriental series,v.4 Note "This edition of Jambhaladatta's version of the Vetalapancavinsati was submitted to the faculty of the Graduate School of Yale University in candidacy for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in 1931." . . Author Kalidasa. Uniform Title [ Sakuntala.] Title Abhijnana-Sakuntala. Translated from the Bengali recension by M.B. Emeneau Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1962. Title The strangling figs in Sanskrit literature Publisher Berkeley, Univ. of California P ress, 1949 Series University of California pubs in classical philology,v. 13, no. 10 Title Dravidian borrowings from Indo-Aryan, by M.B. Emeneau and T. Burrow Publisher Berkeley University of California Press 1962 Series University of California pubs in linguistics, v. 26 Author Bloomfield, Maurice, 1855-1928. Title Vedic variants: a study of the variant readings in the repeated mantras of the Veda by Maurice Bloomfield and Franklin Edgerton. Publisher Philadelphia : University of Pennsylvania, 1930- Description 3 v. Series Special publications of the Linguistic Society of America Note Vol 3 by M. Bloomfield, F. Edgerton and M.B. Emeneau. Contents v.1. The verb.--v.2. Phonetics.--v.3. Noun and pronoun inflection. Title Sanskrit studies of M.B. Emeneau : selected papers / edited by B.A. van Nooten. Publisher Berkeley, CA: University of California, Berkeley, 1988. Series Occasional paper / Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies, University of California, Berkeley; no. 13 Title India and historical grammar; lecture on diffusion and evolution in comparative linguistics, and lecture on India and the linguistic areas delivered as special lectures at the Linguistics Dept. of the Annamalai University in 1959, Publisher Annamalainagar: Annamalai University, 1965. Series Annamalai University pubs in linguistics, no.5 Title Dravidian linguistics; ethnology and folktales; collected papers Publisher Annamalainagar : Annamalai University, 1967. Series Annamalai University. Dept. of Linguistics. Pub no. 8 Title Dravidian comparative phonology; a sketch. Publisher Annamalainagar : Annamalai University, 1970. Series Annamalai University. Dept. of Linguistics. Pub no. 22 Note Revised version of the author's Sketch of Dravidian comparative phonology, 1959. Title Kolami, a Dravidian language. Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1955. Series University of California pubs in linguistics,v.12 Title A course in Annamese. Lessons in the pronunciation and grammar of the Annamese language, prepared by M.B. Emeneau ... with the collaboration of Diether von den Steinen ... Publisher Berkeley, Army Specialized Program, University of California, 1944. Note Multigraphed. Title An Annamese reader, prepared by Ly-duc-Lam, M.B. Emeneau, and Diether von den Steinen, for Army Specialized Training Program, University of California. Publisher Berkeley, Calif., 1944. Note Reproduced from type-written copy. Title Studies in Vietnamese (Annamese) grammar. Publisher Berkeley, University of California Press, 1951. Series University of California pubs in linguistics,v.8 Title Studies in Indian linguistics : Professor M. B. Emeneau Sastipurti volume / edited by Bhadriraju Krishnamurti. Publisher Poona : Centres of Advanced Study in Linguistics, Deccan College, and Annamalai University, 1968. FFC ****************************************************************** To post to H-ASIA simply send your message to: For holidays or short absences send post to: with message: SET H-ASIA NOMAIL Upon return, send post with message SET H-ASIA MAIL H-ASIA WEB HOMEPAGE URL: http://h-net.msu.edu/~asia/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Sep 19 16:24:08 2005 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 05 17:24:08 +0100 Subject: Nyaya discussion list? Message-ID: <161227076725.23782.18308930903230975776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does there exist an online discussion list or forum for serious Nyaya studies? Many thanks, Dominik From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG Mon Sep 19 18:09:12 2005 From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 05 21:09:12 +0300 Subject: Nyaya discussion list? Message-ID: <161227076733.23782.17498993808541937590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would also gladdly support the idea of starting such a forum by providing a proper domain, like http://nyaya.darsana.org , unlimited space, good connectivity (Texas), unlimited traffic and whatever software platform is needed for the forum. It needs only 3 or 4 dedicated moderators to take care of the subforums of pracina-nyaya, navya-nyaya, Buddhist logic, syncretic Nyaya-Vaisesika, Jaina and Lokayata logic. Plamen Gradinarov ----- Original Message ----- From: Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Nyaya discussion list? Not to my knowledge but it will be interesting if you can start one forum ofr Nyaya discussin. Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]En nombre de Dominik Wujastyk Enviado el: Lunes, 19 de Septiembre de 2005 11:24 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Nyaya discussion list? Does there exist an online discussion list or forum for serious Nyaya studies? Many thanks, Dominik -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 16.9.2005 _. From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET Tue Sep 20 12:40:10 2005 From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 08:40:10 -0400 Subject: [Indo-Eurasia] storytelling In-Reply-To: <03e301c5bdd6$741ee540$0eb48283@steinkellner> Message-ID: <161227076748.23782.7519987400375694272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I am forwarding a request for information from Victor Mair, a Sinologist at the Univ. of Pennsylvania. I will forward any responses to him, but if anyone wishes to respond to him directly, he would be grateful: vmair at sas.upenn.edu Thanks in advance from Victor and from me. George Thompson >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues, Are any of you familiar with the famous works of Indian story-literature that are listed below? A friend of mine has discovered a Chinese story from the mid-9th c. that is an exact mirror of a story found in Somadeva's (--> Raaja"sekharasuuri's [?]) collection and in the Kathaako"sa. She is particularly interested in finding out as much as she can about the Tamil collection of stories, but she would welcome information about any of the other collections as well. Best, Victor [diacriticals omitted; sorry for any other errors; the list is copied from my friend's message -- she is a Sinologist, not an Indologist; I've made a couple of corrections and notations in brackets, but they are by no means complete] ================ Brhatkathasaritsagara by Kashmiri Somadeva (1030 CE) Kathacoca [--> Kathaako"sa] by Kashmiri Ksmendra [--> K.semendra --> Raaja"sekharasuuri {?}] (990 CE) Brhatkathamanjari (by Ksmendra [--> K.semendra] also) Brhatkathaslokasamgraha by Nepalese Budhasvamin (tentatively 8th or 9th C CE) Vasudevahimdi by Samghadasaganin (no later than 6th century, possibly much earlier, even 1st or 2nd century CE) a Jaina narrative in popular dialect of Prakrit called Old Jaina Maharastri) Perunkatai by Konkuvelir (10th century, Tamil) (also Jain) Tantrakyana (1484) > From ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Sep 20 08:47:53 2005 From: ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Ernst Steinkellner) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 10:47:53 +0200 Subject: new book from Vienna Message-ID: <161227076739.23782.6586910520870930884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ernst STEINKELLNER ? Helmut KRASSER ? Horst LASIC (Eds.) Jinendrabuddhi?s Pram?n?asamuccayat??k? Chapter 1 Volume 1: Critical Edition, 273pp. Volume 2: Diplomatic Edition, 207pp. The present volume marks the beginning of a series of ?Sanskrit Texts from the Tibetan Autonomous Region? (STTAR) jointly published by the publishing houses of the China Tibetology Research Center, Beijing, and the Austrian Academy of Sciences, Vienna, on the basis of a ?General Agreement on Cooperative Studies of Copies of Sanskrit Texts and their Joint Publication" signed January 9, 2004. It is also the first result of a cooperation between the Chinese Tibetology Research Center and the Institute for Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia of the Austrian Academy of Sciences with the aim of making these unique jewels of philosophical and religious texts from the Buddhist past which are preserved in their original Sanskrit language in the TAR available in scholarly editions for the first time. This volume consists of two parts. The critically edited Sanskrit text of Jinendrabuddhi's Pram??asamuccaya??k?, chapter 1 (?on perception?) is accompanied by a diplomatic edition of the text. The editions are based on photocopies of a palm-leaf manuscript kept in Lhasa which, to our present knowledge, is the only one extent. Jinendrabuddhi's commentary of the second half of the eighth century CE is, moreover, the only commentary known to have been written on that work which marks the very beginning of the Buddhist tradition of epistemology and logic in the first half of the sixth century: Dign?ga's Pram??asamuccaya. The linguistic and interpretational value of Jinendrabuddhi's text is particularly great in view of the fact that Dign?ga's seminal work has not yet been discovered in the original Sanskrit, and that his various polemical treatises on other epistemological authors and schools of his time are unlikely to have been transmitted very long. Moreover, Jinendrabuddhi provides us with numerous quotations from works before Dign?ga which belong to all the traditions of brahmanical classical Indian philosophy, but have been irretrievably lost. The great import of Jinendrabuddhi's work has long been well-known through its Tibetan translation. Thus, the publication of its Sanskrit original will have far-reaching consequences for the knowledge and interpretation of the Indian philosophical traditions in their classical Gupta period expressions. BESTELLUNG / ORDER Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften Postfach 471 A-1011 Wien Postgasse 7/4, A-1010 Wien Tel +43-1-515 81 DW 3401- 3406 Fax +43-1-515 81-3400 E-Mail: verlag at oeaw.ac.at http://verlag.oeaw.ac.at/ UID-Nr.: AT U16251605 Menge ISBN 3-7001-3485-1 AUTOR/AUTHOR TITEL/TITLE Preis/Price Jinendrabuddhi?s Pram?n?asamuccayat??k? Chapter 1 ? 39,00 zuz?glich Versandspesen - plus shipping costs Bitte liefern Sie per / Please deliver by Normalpost / Surface mail Eilpost / Express mail Flugpost / Airmail Belasten Sie mit dem Rechnungsbetrag mein/unser Kreditkartenkonto. Please, charge invoice amount to my/our credit card account. VISA EURO/MASTER AMERICAN EXPRESS Nr.: ????? ?????????? Nr.: ?????????????????? Ablaufdatum/Expiry date: _________________ Ablaufdatum/Expiry date: _______________ From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Tue Sep 20 09:57:41 2005 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 11:57:41 +0200 Subject: 3rd volume of Oberhammer's "Terminologie der fpS in Indien" ? Message-ID: <161227076741.23782.10942272030884269423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, does anyone know when the 3rd volume of _Terminologie der fr?hen philosophischen Scholastik in Indien_ by G. Oberhammer & alii (Wien; vol. 1: 1991; vol. 2. 1996) will be published? Best wishes -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, university Paris 7, UMR 7597) (Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques) From ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Sep 20 11:28:35 2005 From: ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Ernst Steinkellner) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 13:28:35 +0200 Subject: 3rd volume of Oberhammer's "Terminologie der fpS in Indien" ? Message-ID: <161227076745.23782.10586687549530819765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is on its way from the bookbinders and will soon be on the market. Ernst Steinkellner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean-Luc Chevillard" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:57 AM Subject: 3rd volume of Oberhammer's "Terminologie der fpS in Indien" ? > Dear colleagues, > > does anyone know when the 3rd volume of > > _Terminologie der fr?hen philosophischen Scholastik in Indien_ > by G. Oberhammer & alii > (Wien; vol. 1: 1991; vol. 2. 1996) > > will be published? > > > Best wishes > > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard > (CNRS, university Paris 7, UMR 7597) > (Laboratoire d'Histoire des Th?ories Linguistiques) > From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG Tue Sep 20 10:33:29 2005 From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 13:33:29 +0300 Subject: Indian Logic Forum Message-ID: <161227076743.23782.3418837252649659979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A registration form has been set up on http://nyaya.darsana.org for all those colleagues who will be wishing to take part in the future Indian Logic Forum either as participants and reading members, or as moderators of panel discussions and specific forums. Thank you ----- Original Message ----- From: Plamen Gradinarov To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Nyaya discussion list? I would also gladly support the idea of starting such a forum by providing a proper domain, like http://nyaya.darsana.org , unlimited space, good connectivity (Texas), unlimited traffic and whatever software platform is needed for the forum. It needs only 3 or 4 dedicated moderators to take care of the subforums of pracina-nyaya, navya-nyaya, Buddhist logic, syncretic Nyaya-Vaisesika, Jaina and Lokayata logic. Plamen Gradinarov ----- Original Message ----- From: Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Nyaya discussion list? Not to my knowledge but it will be interesting if you can start one forum ofr Nyaya discussin. Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]En nombre de Dominik Wujastyk Enviado el: Lunes, 19 de Septiembre de 2005 11:24 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Nyaya discussion list? Does there exist an online discussion list or forum for serious Nyaya studies? Many thanks, Dominik -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 16.9.2005 _. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 16.9.2005 _. From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Sep 20 19:12:22 2005 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 15:12:22 -0400 Subject: The adbuction of the lotus-flower by the king of elephants Message-ID: <161227076753.23782.12683654180311433860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The King of Orissa was traditionally called the Gajapati (from what period I don't know). Could this somehow be connected? Was there a story about a Gajapati and a lady named Padmini? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Sep 20 15:51:28 2005 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 05 16:51:28 +0100 Subject: South Asian Art Position at the University of Michigan Message-ID: <161227076750.23782.11439619201112626619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Please circulate the following ad to interested individuals and groups. Do not correspond with me personally about the position, and send communications only to the address given in the ad. Best wishes, Madhav Deshpande TEXT OF THE AD: UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. The Departments of the History of Art and of Asian Languages and Cultures invite applications for a tenure-track position in South Asian Art, at the rank of assistant professor, to start in September 2006. Ph.D. required. Expected to pursue energetic research agenda; to teach a broad range of undergraduate courses and graduate seminars on the arts and artistic cultures of South Asia, including both the pre-modern and modern periods, as well as, on occasion, a survey course on Arts of Asia; to supervise doctoral dissertations; and to participate actively in departmental as well as in area studies initiatives within a large university community that encourages interdisciplinary dialogue. We seek candidates whose research demonstrates both contextual depth and theoretical sophistication. Proficiency in at least two relevant languages is an advantage. The University of Michigan is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer and is supportive of the needs of dual career couples. Applicants should provide a substantive letter of application, CV, writing sample, evidence of teaching excellence, a research statement, and three letters of recommendation to: South Asian Art Search Committee, Department of The History of Art The University of Michigan, 519 S. State Street, Rm. 110 Tappan Hall, Ann Arbor, MI 48109- 1357. Application deadline is December 12, 2005. From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Wed Sep 21 16:29:48 2005 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 05 11:29:48 -0500 Subject: Book Message-ID: <161227076756.23782.8857202600252269030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: This is not a self-promotion, but close!! Promotion of a student!! Don Davis has just published a book on Indian law as practised in Kerala during medieval times. A great and unique book throwing much needed light on law as practised on the ground. It is: The Boundaries of Hindu law, tradition, custom and politics in medieval Kerala, by Donald R. Davis, Jr., Torino, 2004, 186 p. The attachment will give you some idea of how to get a copy. CESMEO does wonderful work, but selling books efficiently is not one of them! Patrick CORPUS IURIS SANSCRITICUM ET FONTES IURIS ASIAE MERIDIANAE ET CENTRALIS A Series on Social and Religious Law of India, South-East and Central Asia, edited by Oscar Botto and published with the financial support of the Fondazione CRT. In the year 2000 the Series was awarded the prize "Ikuo Hirayama" by the Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres of the Institut de France, Paris. The Series aims to offer, particularly, to scholars: - Critical editions of juridical texts composed in Sanskrit and various languages of South-East and Central Asia, with translation, introduction, notes, index of verses and other appendices of use for consulting and examining the text philologically. - Translations of juridical texts hitherto untranslated with introduction and notes. - Monographs on juridical topics with bibliography and notes - Reproduction of rare manuscripts which are remarkable from an aesthetic point of view, with introductory remarks and notes. __________________________________________________________ Copyright : Comitato "Corpus Iuris Sanscriticum et fontes iuris Asiae Meridianae et Centralis " President : Dr. Irma Piovano c/o CESMEO, via Cavour 17, 10123 TORINO (Italy) - tel. (+39) 011.54.65.64 - fax (+39) 011.54 50 31 - E-mail cesme at tin.it Scientific Committee President OSCAR BOTTO, Emeritus Professor of Indology, University of Turin. Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Rome; Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres, Paris; Royal Swedish Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities, Stockholm. Vice President SIEGFRIED LIENHARD, Emeritus Professor of Indology, University of Stockholm. Royal Swedish Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities, Stockholm; Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Rome; Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres, Paris. Members COLETTE CAILLAT, Emeritus Professor of Indology, Universit? de Paris III. Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres, Paris; Royal Swedish Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities, Stockholm. OSKAR VON HIN?BER, Professor of Indology, University of Freiburg; Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz; Acad?mie des Inscriptions et Belles- Lettres, Paris. PATRICK OLIVELLE, Professor, Department of Asian Studies, The University of Texas. IRMA PIOVANO, Supervisor of the scientific activities and cultural relations of the CESMEO, Torino AKIRA YUYAMA, Emeritus Professor, International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology, Soka University, Tokyo NAME ?????????????????????????? UNIVERSITY???????????????????????. ADDRESS????????????????????????... FAX???????????. E-MAIL????????????. REF. NAME???????????????????????? I would like to receive to the above address the following volumes: * Daksa-smrti, Introduction, Critical edition, Translation and Appendices by Irma Piovano; with a foreword on the "Corpus Iuris Sanscriticum" by Oscar Botto, Torino, 2002, XVII, 143 p. * Le Code n?palais (AIN) de 1853, par Jean Fezas, Introduction et Texte, 2 Tomes, Torino, 2000, LXV, 842 p. * Samvarta Tradition (Samvarta-smrti and Samvarta-dharmasastra), Critically edited with English Translation by K.V. Sarma and S.A.S. Sarma, Torino, 2002, XIV, 161 p. * Sankara-smrti (Laghudharmaprakasika), Introduction, Critical edition, Translation and Appendix by N.P. Unni, Torino, 2003, XI, 396 p. * The Boundaries of Hindu law, tradition, custom and politics in medieval Kerala, by Donald R. Davis, Jr., Torino, 2004, 186 p. If you are interested in receiving the complete Series, the Editorial Board will send you the volumes free of charge after receiving the payment of the postage. (e.g. postage for 5 volumes to United States is 70 ?). Payment by money transfer to: Corpus Juris Sanscriticum et fontes juris Asiae Meridianae et Centralis Bank : Uni Credit Banca, Bank account n. 000040141295, ABI 02008, CAB 01051, CIN C, SWIFT code : UNCRITB1AF4, IBAN code : IT20C0200801051000040141295 Please send this coupon by fax (+39.011.545031) or by e-mail (cesme at tin.it) SIGNATURE From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 22 19:49:38 2005 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 05 15:49:38 -0400 Subject: question about gender of two names Message-ID: <161227076759.23782.11059080141194789309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A patron needs to know the gender of this person: PANDIT, Kavita Krishnakumar (1956- ) Temporal and Spatial Variation in Sectoral Labor Allocation during Development. Ohio State University [United States], 1987 (Ph.D. in Geography). Chairperson/Major Adviser: Emilio Casetti. xi, 159p. DAI 48, no.9 (Mar. 1988): 2423-A; UM 8726704. Kavita of course is female, but the middle name is male. Is there any part of the country where a woman may have a male middle name? Could this be from a patronimic naming system, as in the Maharashtrian 'middle names'? Attempts to get the information from Ohio State have been unavailing because of privacy laws (sic). A similar question from another source: In Rajasthan would Tilak be a man's given name or a woman's? In Sanskrit the common noun is masculine, but on the other hand one might speculate the meaning, "ornament," would also be appropriate for a woman. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Sep 22 20:48:10 2005 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 05 16:48:10 -0400 Subject: question about gender of two names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227076762.23782.4559803401610238357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kavita Krishnakumar Pandit Kavita is Female. In Gujarat, women write their husband's first name after their personal name and before their last name or surname. So it becomes like a middle name. To me it looks like Krishnakumar is Kavita's husband's name. Mostly men write their father's first name as their middle name in Gujarat and some parts of Maharashtra. I am not sure if in other parts of India also this practice is prevalent. In Rajasthan, Tilak would be a man's name. Tilak even in the sense of ornament would be masculine. Hope this helps. Bindu --On 22 ??????? 2005 15:49 -0400 Allen W Thrasher wrote: > A patron needs to know the gender of this person: > > PANDIT, Kavita Krishnakumar (1956- ) > > Temporal and Spatial Variation in Sectoral Labor Allocation during > Development. Ohio State University [United States], 1987 (Ph.D. in > Geography). Chairperson/Major Adviser: Emilio Casetti. xi, 159p. DAI > 48, no.9 (Mar. 1988): 2423-A; UM 8726704. > > Kavita of course is female, but the middle name is male. Is there any > part of the country where a woman may have a male middle name? Could > this be from a patronimic naming system, as in the Maharashtrian 'middle > names'? Attempts to get the information from Ohio State have been > unavailing because of privacy laws (sic). > > A similar question from another source: In Rajasthan would Tilak be a > man's given name or a woman's? In Sanskrit the common noun is masculine, > but on the other hand one might speculate the meaning, "ornament," would > also be appropriate for a woman. > > Thanks, > > Allen > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian > South Asia Team, Asian Division > Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 > 101 Independence Ave., S.E. > Washington, DC 20540-4810 > tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov > The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of > Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Sep 22 22:28:00 2005 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 05 18:28:00 -0400 Subject: question about gender of two names Message-ID: <161227076765.23782.15436067889154120316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bindu, Thanks for resolving the questions. Allen From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Sep 23 11:27:16 2005 From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 05 07:27:16 -0400 Subject: vaidurya Message-ID: <161227076767.23782.9890503909419828996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone else has brought to my attention that Cunningham, describing what he found at the third Stupa at Sanchi, reports on the seven precious items entombed there, and the vai.duulya was lapis lazuli. Are those items still preserved and available somewhere? Has anyone checked recently to determine whether it really was lapis lazuli or beryl? Thanks. Dan Lusthaus I promise this will be the last time I post on query on this topic. From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Fri Sep 23 11:39:33 2005 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 05 12:39:33 +0100 Subject: vaidurya In-Reply-To: <007701c5c031$c28edc00$7a309c04@Dan> Message-ID: <161227076770.23782.15560695044288514729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think these items must still be in the British Museum--see the thread 'Buddhist Relics from Bhilsa Topes' , on this list, January 2003. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK At 7:27 am -0400 23/9/05, Dan Lusthaus wrote: >Someone else has brought to my attention that Cunningham, describing what he >found at the third Stupa at Sanchi, reports on the seven precious items >entombed there, and the vai.duulya was lapis lazuli. Are those items still >preserved and available somewhere? Has anyone checked recently to determine >whether it really was lapis lazuli or beryl? > >Thanks. > >Dan Lusthaus > >I promise this will be the last time I post on query on this topic. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Sep 25 13:27:10 2005 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 05 09:27:10 -0400 Subject: New EJVS, 12-3: SSN Murthy: numbers in Rgveda Message-ID: <161227076772.23782.4133820812914096433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is to announce a new issue of EJVS, vol.12-3: Number Symbolism in the Vedas by S. S. N. Murthy It is availabe as pdf on our web site: http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/issues.html Brief intro: ... in the Vedas, one finds numbers such as 1, 3, 7 and 10 as the most used numbers... The symbolism associated with the single digit numerals was very well established in virtually all cultures, since counting began on the ten fingers... The Vedic Rsis also used large compound numbers like 21, 33, 34, 99, and 100 etc. very frequently ... but no serious attempt has been made far to see whether there is any hidden symbolism in these numbers... I have tabulated almost all the compound numbers mentioned in RV ... Keeping in mind that the Vedic Rsis followed the decimal system and were acquainted with some basic arithmetic operations like additions and multiplications etc. of smaller numbers (at least!), the first thing that strikes our mind ... is that there is a pattern or method in the use of numbers ... Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 direct line: 496 2990 http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG Mon Sep 26 10:25:06 2005 From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 05 15:55:06 +0530 Subject: question about gender of two names Message-ID: <161227076775.23782.10661906566509894519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, KAVITA is the name of a woman; Krishnakumar is the name of her father (if she is unmarried) or the name of her husband. Generally in south India women attach the names of their father (if unmarried) or that of her husband. Tilak is mostly the name of a man; or it may be the family name as in Maharashtra we have Bal Gangadhar Tilak. But generally the naming pattern varies in many parts of India which seems mostly a modern complication. For in the ancient India it was not at all complicated. Everybody had only one name (except the religious teachers,say, the saiva religious teachers, who had their initiatory names also which is mostly known only within their disciples). Thanks Ganesan Dr.T.Ganesan Charg? de Recherches Senior Research Assistant in Saivasiddhanta, French Institute 11, St. Louis Street PONDICHERRY-605001 INDIA Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org Web: www.ifpindia.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen W Thrasher" To: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 1:19 AM Subject: question about gender of two names A patron needs to know the gender of this person: PANDIT, Kavita Krishnakumar (1956- ) Temporal and Spatial Variation in Sectoral Labor Allocation during Development. Ohio State University [United States], 1987 (Ph.D. in Geography). Chairperson/Major Adviser: Emilio Casetti. xi, 159p. DAI 48, no.9 (Mar. 1988): 2423-A; UM 8726704. Kavita of course is female, but the middle name is male. Is there any part of the country where a woman may have a male middle name? Could this be from a patronimic naming system, as in the Maharashtrian 'middle names'? Attempts to get the information from Ohio State have been unavailing because of privacy laws (sic). A similar question from another source: In Rajasthan would Tilak be a man's given name or a woman's? In Sanskrit the common noun is masculine, but on the other hand one might speculate the meaning, "ornament," would also be appropriate for a woman. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From sellmers at GMX.DE Tue Sep 27 10:24:05 2005 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 05 12:24:05 +0200 Subject: haMsagAminI Message-ID: <161227076777.23782.5600737193347998530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues! "haMsagAminI" is a not uncommon epithet for young beautiful women. The usual rendering is "with a swan's gait" (or similar) which sounds a little strange to Western ears, however, because in Europe the way swans, geese and ducks walk is, as far as I can see, considered rather inelegant. I presume this is the reason why at least one translation I came across has "with a flamingo's gait" instead. This seems possible, but perhaps is just wrong. I wonder if anybody is aware of an article discussing this question or has his own theory about it. Any hints would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance, Sven ************************************** Dr. Sven Sellmer Adam Mickiewicz University Department of Oriental Studies ul. Miedzychodzka 5 PL - 60-371 Poznan Poland sellmers at gmx.de From sellmers at GMX.DE Tue Sep 27 10:52:17 2005 From: sellmers at GMX.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 05 12:52:17 +0200 Subject: Fw: Hamsa Message-ID: <161227076779.23782.13439145546382800527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harsha Dehejia" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:49 PM Subject: Hamsa > Sven: > > A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. > > Regards. > > Harsha > Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia > Ottawa, ON. Canada > > PS Can you post this on the Indologist as I am unable to do this as I have > a new computer address. > > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Sep 27 12:28:36 2005 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 05 13:28:36 +0100 Subject: Fw: Hamsa In-Reply-To: <003e01c5c351$8769eac0$5d01000a@krasnal> Message-ID: <161227076782.23782.6846459726376859371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Julia Leslie was preparing a comprehensive re-examination of the whole hamsa/swan/goose/flamingo issue, but sadly her premature death last year prevented that work being completed. I do remember several conversations, however, in which Julia noted that the various "hard" positions on the fixed identity of the hamsa were always wrong. It's not "always" a goose, or swan, flamingo, or mythical bird. In deciding how to understand what is meant by "hamsa", "rajahamsa" etc., in any passage, context is very important, Julia thought, including chronological, geographical and narrative context. Her 1998 "A Bird Bereaved" article in JIP demonstrated this method admirably. Unfortunately there isn't a simple, general answer about the identity of hamsa. Interestingly, Julia felt that it was indeed appropriate to understand "swan" in many cases, though not all. She deprecated the rigid identification of "hamsa" with "goose" which has become an automatic reflex in much indological writing since Vogel's 1962 book _The goose in Indian literature and art_, which she felt was based on a too-narrow selection of sources (mainly architectural and mainly Sinhalese). She felt that Dave's _Birds in Sanskrit Literature_ was often more nuanced, better informed ornithologically, and more appropriate. DW On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Sven Sellmer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harsha Dehejia" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:49 PM > Subject: Hamsa > > >> Sven: >> >> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >> >> Regards. >> >> Harsha >> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >> Ottawa, ON. Canada >> >> PS Can you post this on the Indologist as I am unable to do this as I have >> a new computer address. >> >> >> > From e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK Tue Sep 27 15:00:56 2005 From: e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 05 16:00:56 +0100 Subject: Investigating the Mind 2005: The Science and Clinical Applications of Meditation The Science and Clinical Applications of Meditation Message-ID: <161227076785.23782.381670382316927415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All some of you (or some of your students) may be interested to know about this public event and about the Mind and Life Institute. With best regards Elizabeth De Michelis =========================== The Mind & Life Institute presents: MIND & LIFE XIII Co-hosted by Georgetown University Medical Center and The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine The Dalai Lama will participate fully in all sessions REGISTRATION IS NOW OPEN - GOOD SEATING STILL AVAILABLE - SEE WEBSITE FOR DETAILS! Investigating the Mind 2005: The Science and Clinical Applications of Meditation, DAR Constitution Hall, Washington DC, November 8 - 10, 2005 CME Accredited (Jointly sponsored by The Mind & Life Institute and CME-accredited by Georgetown University Hospital.) For Conference and Registration Information go to: www.InvestigatingTheMind.org This latest Mind and Life public meeting "Investigating the Mind 2005: The Science and Clinical Applications of Meditation" builds on the growing interest in meditation within modern medicine and biomedical science that has arisen over the past thirty years and further explores the emerging clinical opportunities. CONFERENCE SESSIONS: 1. Meditation-Based Clinical Interventions: Science, Practice, and Implementation 2. Possible Biological Substrates of Meditation 3. Clinical Research I: Meditation and Mental Health 4. Clinical Research II: Meditation and Physical Health 5. Integration & Final Reflections SPEAKERS: Ajahn Amaro, B.Sc., Abhayagiri Monastery: Richard J. Davidson, Ph.D., University of Wisconsin-Madison: Jon Kabat-Zinn, Ph.D., U. of Mass. Medical School, Emeritus: Daniel Kahneman, Ph.D., Princeton University: Helen S. Mayberg, M.D., Emory University: Robert M. Sapolsky, Ph.D., Stanford University: Zindel V. Segal, Ph.D., University of Toronto: David S. Sheps, M.D., University of Florida: John F. Sheridan, Ph.D., Ohio State University: Wolf Singer, M.D., Ph.D., Max-Planck-Institut f?r Hirnforschung: Ralph Snyderman, M.D., Duke University Medical Center PANELISTS: Jan Chozen Bays, M.D., Great Vow Zen Monastery: Joan Halifax, Ph.D., Upaya Zen Center: Father Thomas Keating, OCSO, St. Benedict's Monastery: Margaret E. Kemeny, Ph.D., University of California-SF: Jack Kornfield, Ph.D., Spirit Rock Meditation Center: Matthieu Ricard, Ph.D., Shechen Monastery: Sharon Salzberg, R.N., Insight Meditation Society: Bennett M. Shapiro, M.D., Merck Research Laboratories, Emeritus: Esther M. Sternberg, M.D., National Institute of Mental Health: John D. Teasdale, Ph.D., MRC Cog. & Brain Sci. Unit, Emeritus: B. Alan Wallace, Ph.D., Santa Barbara Institute Meditation is becoming Mainstream in Western Medicine and Society Applications of meditation are now common in the treatment of stress, pain, and a range of chronic diseases in both medicine and psychiatry, and some approaches are currently the subject of NIH-supported clinical trials and research studies. At the same time, the power of our non-invasive technologies have made it possible to investigate the nature of cognition and emotion in the brain as never before, and to begin to explore the interfaces between mind, brain, and body, and the implications of particular forms of meditative practices for modulating and regulating biological pathways to restore or enhance homeostatic processes and perhaps extend the reach of both mind and body in ways that might potentially promote rehabilitation and healing as well as greater overall health and well-being. Recent studies are showing that meditation can result in stable brain patterns and changes over both short and long-term intervals that have not been seen before in human beings and that suggest the potential for the systematic driving of positive neuroplastic changes via such intentional practices cultivated over time. These investigations may offer opportunities for understanding the basic unifying mechanisms of the brain, mind and body that underlie awareness and our capacity for effective adaptation to stressful and uncertain conditions. Mind and Life Dialogues Mind and Life Institute XIII is the latest in a series of dialogues between scientists, the Dalai Lama, and other Buddhist contemplatives on areas of mutual interest at the intersection of western empirical science and the contemplative traditions and their associated methodologies, psychologies, and philosophies. Prior to 2003, all of these meetings have been held in private; however books describing them have been published and are widely available. Investigating the Mind 2005: The Science and Clinical Applications of Meditation is the second Mind and Life Dialogue that will be open to a large audience, consisting primarily of people working in the fields of medicine, clinical psychology, psychiatry, and neuroscience, as well as students in these fields. ? Copyright 2005 Mind and Life Institute, Boulder, CO, USA. All rights reserved. From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Tue Sep 27 20:05:27 2005 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 05 16:05:27 -0400 Subject: Hamsa In-Reply-To: <003e01c5c351$8769eac0$5d01000a@krasnal> Message-ID: <161227076788.23782.5240790700694253308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hamsa all over again!? Fortunately, I had the hamsa pictures left up on the web http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/Hamsa/hamsa%20index.html As one can easily see the early sculptors certainly intended to portray a goose John John C. Huntington (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) The Ohio State University On 27 Sep 2005, at 6:52 AM, Sven Sellmer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harsha Dehejia" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:49 PM > Subject: Hamsa > > > >> Sven: >> >> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >> >> Regards. >> >> Harsha >> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >> Ottawa, ON. Canada >> >> PS Can you post this on the Indologist as I am unable to do this >> as I have a new computer address. >> >> > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Tue Sep 27 23:44:15 2005 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 05 17:44:15 -0600 Subject: Hamsa Message-ID: <161227076790.23782.5495700455521181674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not only that, but parallel to the idea that a beautiful woman has the gait of a hamsa (swan or whatever you want), in the Kama Sutra is says the beautiful woman has the gait of an elephant. Perhaps we today do not appraise such gaits as beautiful or charming, but some ancients did. Both goose and elephant are real creatures, not fantastic animals, and I find it a stretch to assume that the hamsa in some classic texts is meant to be a mythical animal. Instead it's a poetic figure, and if it lives in ponds of golden lotuses and has mystical cries, and longs for Lake Manasarovar, so what? That's poetry. Joanna Kikrpatrick ================================= > Hamsa all over again!? > > Fortunately, I had the hamsa pictures left up on the web > > http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/Hamsa/hamsa%20index.html > > As one can easily see the early sculptors certainly intended to portray a > goose > > John > > > John C. Huntington > (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) > The Ohio State University =================== >>> >>> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >>> >>> Regards. >>> >>> Harsha >>> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >>> Ottawa, ON. Canada From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Sep 28 14:49:15 2005 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 08:49:15 -0600 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha Message-ID: <161227076793.23782.9211035817499684936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Indologers, This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am wondering about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? Thanks, Joanna Kirkpatrick ================================== > Dear list members, > > Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame > of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, > page 24: > > 'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means > "the sage of the oak tree people".' > > This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any > corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not > an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the > accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly > volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just > look at his references and I might have my answer already. > > Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? > > Sincerely, > > Greg Bungo From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 28 15:19:14 2005 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 11:19:14 -0400 Subject: Hamsa In-Reply-To: <000701c5c3bd$5f7251d0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227076795.23782.14700601913058514274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hamsa is Anser Indicus (bar-headed goose). Their nesting areas are in the Mountainous regions of central Asia north of the Himalayas. (No wonder they want to be in Mansarovara). They come to northern India and Myanmar during winter. They have light grey body, white head with two black bars on the back of the head. Depending on the context Hamsa can mean God, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Soul, vital air, and individual soul. Used as Paramahamsa, it means ascetic of the highest order. It is depicted as a beautiful bird in poetry and beautiful women's graceful slow walk is equated to that of Hamsa. It is the vehicle of Brahma. Bindu --On 27 ??????? 2005 17:44 -0600 jkirk wrote: > Not only that, but parallel to the idea that a beautiful woman has the > gait of a hamsa (swan or whatever you want), in the Kama Sutra is says > the beautiful woman has the gait of an elephant. Perhaps we today do not > appraise such gaits as beautiful or charming, but some ancients did. Both > goose and elephant are real creatures, not fantastic animals, and I find > it a stretch to assume that the hamsa in some classic texts is meant to > be a mythical animal. Instead it's a poetic figure, and if it lives in > ponds of golden lotuses and has mystical cries, and longs for Lake > Manasarovar, so what? That's poetry. > Joanna Kikrpatrick > ================================= > > > >> Hamsa all over again!? >> >> Fortunately, I had the hamsa pictures left up on the web >> >> http://huntingtonarchive.osu.edu/Hamsa/hamsa%20index.html >> >> As one can easily see the early sculptors certainly intended to portray >> a goose >> >> John >> >> >> John C. Huntington >> (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) >> The Ohio State University > =================== >>>> >>>> A hamsa is neither a swam or a duck but a mythic bird. >>>> >>>> Regards. >>>> >>>> Harsha >>>> Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia >>>> Ottawa, ON. Canada From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Sep 28 15:36:44 2005 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 11:36:44 -0400 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <002701c5c43b$cc719ec0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227076798.23782.12275030385064611832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought Shakya is a Kshatriya tribe in the foothills of the Himalayas. I don't know anything about Oak tree association here. Bindu --On 28 ??????? 2005 08:49 -0600 jkirk wrote: > Hello Indologers, > > This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am wondering > about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? > > Thanks, > Joanna Kirkpatrick > ================================== > > > >> Dear list members, >> >> Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame >> of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, >> page 24: >> >> 'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means >> "the sage of the oak tree people".' >> >> This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any >> corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not >> an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the >> accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly >> volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just >> look at his references and I might have my answer already. >> >> Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Greg Bungo From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Sep 28 18:39:40 2005 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 12:39:40 -0600 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha Message-ID: <161227076815.23782.11020690965725340870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aha--so whoever it was got the wrong tree! ----- Original Message ----- From: "diwakar acharya" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha > A"svagho.sa in the Saundarananda associates "saakyas with "saakav.rk.sa, > which is teak tree according to MW. > > Diwakar > > > > > > > ===================================== > Diwakar Acharya > Nepalese-German Manuscript Cataloguing Project (NGMCP) > Abteilung f. Kultur u. Geschichte Indiens u. Tibets > Asia-Africa Institute > University of Hamburg > Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 (HG) > D-20146 Hamburg > Germany > Tel.: +49 40 42838 6269, ~6267 > Fax: +49 40 42838 6917 > ===================================== > > > > >>From: jkirk >>Reply-To: Indology >>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >>Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha >>Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:49:15 -0600 >> >>Hello Indologers, >> >>This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am wondering >>about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? >> >>Thanks, >>Joanna Kirkpatrick >>================================== >> >> >> >>>Dear list members, >>> >>>Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame >>>of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, >>>page 24: >>> >>>'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means >>>"the sage of the oak tree people".' >>> >>>This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any >>>corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not >>>an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the >>>accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly >>>volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just >>>look at his references and I might have my answer already. >>> >>>Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? >>> >>>Sincerely, >>> >>>Greg Bungo From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Sep 28 18:42:13 2005 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 12:42:13 -0600 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha Message-ID: <161227076818.23782.17672941060134050900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition, this reply was posted on the Buddha-L list: "...it seems to me that Logan has landed in a muddle by assuming that s"aakya is derived from s"aaka, and then assuming that s"aaka is a terms that refers to oak. There's no evidence that I know of for such a use. S"aaka is a word that can be used to refer to vegetables, fruits, greens, and teak (according to Apte, it's also used to refer to the S"iri.sa tree--a kind of acacia). The term s"aaka can also be used as an alternative to s"aka, the word from which the s"aakya in S"aakyamuni is held to derive. But the fact that the same word can be used to denote two different things -- here a plant, there a group of people -- doesn't entail that one of these things is named after the other. And this is a good thing, given that the word s"aka is used in the Atharvaveda to refer to dung." Joanna ============================================ > As is well known, 'Shaakya' is a patronymic, meaning 'descendent of > Shaka'. The word 'Shaka' is a proper name, referring to the tribe, and > may not have a Sanskrit etymology. Nothing points to an oak tree. Since > 'shaka' also means the same as 'shak.rt', one probably doesn't want to go > further into etymologizing the Buddha's title. > > DW > > > > > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, jkirk wrote: > >> Hello Indologers, >> >> This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am wondering >> about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? >> >> Thanks, >> Joanna Kirkpatrick >> ================================== >> >> >> >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame >>> of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, >>> page 24: >>> >>> 'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means >>> "the sage of the oak tree people".' >>> >>> This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any >>> corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not >>> an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the >>> accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly >>> volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just >>> look at his references and I might have my answer already. >>> >>> Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Greg Bungo >> From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Sep 28 18:47:53 2005 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 12:47:53 -0600 Subject: Hamsa Message-ID: <161227076821.23782.4614500001697292613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, in fact if one checks on descriptions of the attributes of gorgeous women in the classics, she who walks like an elephant or a goose could easily have been of that overly zaftig build--in some descriptions her breasts are so heavy that they pull her shoulders down ~~: and she has difficulty running away from male pursuers. But then, elephants are said to be fast runners. Joanna ============= When my mother and aunt stayed with me in Pune for a week back in 1983, they remarked about my Tamil maid, a woman of full figure approaching middle age, "She walks like she were Queen Mary." I think the poets with their talk of geese and elephants were referring to something of the sort. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Sep 28 16:58:21 2005 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 12:58:21 -0400 Subject: Hamsa Message-ID: <161227076808.23782.14190103607471017888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When my mother and aunt stayed with me in Pune for a week back in 1983, they remarked about my Tamil maid, a woman of full figure approaching middle age, "She walks like she were Queen Mary." I think the poets with their talk of geese and elephants were referring to something of the sort. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D., Senior Reference Librarian South Asia Team, Asian Division Library of Congress, Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732; fax 202-707-1724; athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 28 16:07:04 2005 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 17:07:04 +0100 Subject: Hamsa In-Reply-To: <0C5A402F569373E197D588F2@tswle3a2.cul.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227076803.23782.18061255891098741620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Bindu Bhat wrote: > Hamsa is Anser Indicus (bar-headed goose). Their nesting areas are in the > Mountainous regions of central Asia north of the Himalayas. (No wonder they > want to be in Mansarovara). They come to northern India and Myanmar during > winter. They have light grey body, white head with two black bars on the back > of the head. Depending on the context Hamsa can mean God, Brahma, Vishnu, > Shiva, Soul, vital air, and individual soul. Used as Paramahamsa, it means > ascetic of the highest order. It is depicted as a beautiful bird in poetry > and beautiful women's graceful slow walk is equated to that of Hamsa. It is > the vehicle of Brahma. > Bindu > Sigh. DW From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Sep 28 16:13:12 2005 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 17:13:12 +0100 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <002701c5c43b$cc719ec0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227076806.23782.15624894167812517075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As is well known, 'Shaakya' is a patronymic, meaning 'descendent of Shaka'. The word 'Shaka' is a proper name, referring to the tribe, and may not have a Sanskrit etymology. Nothing points to an oak tree. Since 'shaka' also means the same as 'shak.rt', one probably doesn't want to go further into etymologizing the Buddha's title. DW On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, jkirk wrote: > Hello Indologers, > > This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am wondering > about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? > > Thanks, > Joanna Kirkpatrick > ================================== > > > >> Dear list members, >> >> Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame >> of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, >> page 24: >> >> 'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means >> "the sage of the oak tree people".' >> >> This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any >> corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not >> an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the >> accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly >> volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just >> look at his references and I might have my answer already. >> >> Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Greg Bungo > From acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Sep 28 16:02:45 2005 From: acharyadiwakar at HOTMAIL.COM (diwakar acharya) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 18:02:45 +0200 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <002701c5c43b$cc719ec0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227076801.23782.6199683307237619038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A"svagho.sa in the Saundarananda associates "saakyas with "saakav.rk.sa, which is teak tree according to MW. Diwakar ===================================== Diwakar Acharya Nepalese-German Manuscript Cataloguing Project (NGMCP) Abteilung f. Kultur u. Geschichte Indiens u. Tibets Asia-Africa Institute University of Hamburg Edmund-Siemers-Allee 1 (HG) D-20146 Hamburg Germany Tel.: +49 40 42838 6269, ~6267 Fax: +49 40 42838 6917 ===================================== >From: jkirk >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk >Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:49:15 -0600 > >Hello Indologers, > >This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am wondering >about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? > >Thanks, >Joanna Kirkpatrick >================================== > > > >>Dear list members, >> >>Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame >>of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, >>page 24: >> >>'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means >>"the sage of the oak tree people".' >> >>This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any >>corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not >>an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the >>accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly >>volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just >>look at his references and I might have my answer already. >> >>Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Greg Bungo From bclough at AUCEGYPT.EDU Wed Sep 28 21:04:17 2005 From: bclough at AUCEGYPT.EDU (bclough) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 21:04:17 +0000 Subject: Address Sought Message-ID: <161227076823.23782.5736019734189829532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Might anyone have the email address for Professor Tilmann Vetter? Please respond to me directly off list. Many Thanks, Brad Clough Bradley Clough (bclough at aucegypt.edu)/202-797-6122 Abdulhadi H. Taher Professor of Comparative Religion History Department (Postal Code #221) The American University in Cairo 113 Kasr El Aini Street, P.O. Box 2511 Cairo 11511 Egypt From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Thu Sep 29 03:51:04 2005 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 05 23:51:04 -0400 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <002701c5c43b$cc719ec0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227076825.23782.10423117926329829641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oak? maybe its a joke (sorry) I do not think so! Oaks grown in Europe, North America and California (a species called "live Oak") but not in India. My botanical references to India list no oaks. To be blunt, some one is making up something of no merit what so ever. John John C. Huntington, Professor (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) Department of the History of Art The Ohio State University Columbus, OH, U.S.A. On Sep 28, 2005, at 10:49 AM, jkirk wrote: > Hello Indologers, > > This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am > wondering > about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? > > Thanks, > Joanna Kirkpatrick > ================================== > > > > >> Dear list members, >> Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame >> of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, >> page 24: >> 'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means >> "the sage of the oak tree people".' >> This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any >> corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not >> an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the >> accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly >> volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just >> look at his references and I might have my answer already. >> Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? >> Sincerely, >> Greg Bungo > From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Thu Sep 29 04:38:58 2005 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 05 09:38:58 +0500 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha Message-ID: <161227076831.23782.8090864312166945637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello OK, but the association of Saaka with tree cannot be ignored.Of the seven lands-saptadviipa-the sixth one is saakadviipa the other six being jambu,plakSa,Saalmali,kuSa,krauNca and puSkara all denoting flora.Sabdakalpadruma(incidentally druma=tree) says:Saakyavamsatvaat Saakyah.SaakyaScaasau muniSceti Saakyamunih.tathaa hi Saako vrkSaviSeSah tatra bhavah vidyamaanah Saakyah.pituh Saapena kecit ikSvaakuvamSyaah gautamavamSajakapilamuneraaSrame SaakavrkSe krtavaasaaSca Saakyaa ucyante."SaakavrkSapraticchannam vaasam yasmaat pracakrire/tasmaadikSvaakuvamSyaste bhuvi Saakyaa iti Srutaah"(AmaraTiikaa) K.Maheswaran Nair Professor Department of Sanskrit University of Kerala India Un ----- Original Message ----- From: "John C. Huntington" Date: Thursday, September 29, 2005 9:21 am Subject: Re: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha > Oak? maybe its a joke (sorry) > > I do not think so! Oaks grown in Europe, North America and > California > (a species called "live Oak") but not in India. My botanical > references to India list no oaks. To be blunt, some one is making > up > something of no merit what so ever. > > John > > > > John C. Huntington, Professor > (Buddhist Art and Methodologies) > > Department of the History of Art > The Ohio State University > Columbus, OH, U.S.A. > > > > > > On Sep 28, 2005, at 10:49 AM, jkirk wrote: > > > Hello Indologers, > > > > This is a query that came to the Buddha-L list, and as I too am > > wondering > > about this translation of shakya--any comment, anyone? > > > > Thanks, > > Joanna Kirkpatrick > > ================================== > > > > > > > > > >> Dear list members, > >> Here's a quotation from the new book _Oak: The Frame > >> of Civilization_, by William Bryant Logan, Norton, 2005, > >> page 24: > >> 'The name of the historic Buddha, Shakyamuni, means > >> "the sage of the oak tree people".' > >> This surprised me, and I haven't been able to find any > >> corroboration on the internet or in my library. I'm not > >> an expert on Pali or Sanskrit, so I can't judge the > >> accuracy of this statement. The book is not a scholarly > >> volume, so there aren't footnotes -- otherwise I'd just > >> look at his references and I might have my answer already. > >> Was the Shakya tribe/clan really named after oak trees? > >> Sincerely, > >> Greg Bungo > > > From ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG Thu Sep 29 04:50:30 2005 From: ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG (Ganesan) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 05 10:20:30 +0530 Subject: E-mail address Message-ID: <161227076828.23782.1124326653932034385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does any one know the e-mail address of Prof.Harold Coward, please. ? I will be thankful if he informs me. Thanks Ganesan Dr.T.Ganesan Charg? de Recherches French Institute 11, St. Louis Street PONDICHERRY-605001 INDIA Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123 E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org Web: www.ifpindia.org From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Fri Sep 30 17:25:41 2005 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi Tripathi) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 05 12:25:41 -0500 Subject: Supernormal Powers in Ancient Indian Traditions Message-ID: <161227076840.23782.767596335183180914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Brad Clough, You may find very useful my Sanskrit Mahakavya "Ramapratapa-caritam"(2 vols) with Hindi and English translation and a long introduction, available at Chaukhamba Sanskrit Prakashan, Bunglow Road, Delhi-7. Ths Mahakavya deals with the life and teachings of Ramaprata who was a great sanskrit scholar of the twentieth century and a great Raja-yogi. He had several spritual powers such as Vaak-siddhi( all his words became truth) and Divya Drsti(divine transcental perception) which were experienced by thousands and thousands of persons. An Italian translation of this mahakavya "Vita Di Un Saggio(has been published in Milan (L#Oca Del Cairo) in 2005. You have selected an excellent topic and I wish you all success. Rasik Vihari joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]En nombre de bclough Enviado el: Viernes, 30 de Septiembre de 2005 11:56 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Asunto: Supernormal Powers in Ancient Indian Traditions Dear Colleagues, (Apologies to RISA subscribers for cross-listing) I am working on the topic of supernormal powers ("divine" ear and eye, knowledge of others' thoughts, memory of past lives, and other siddhis/rddhis) in Indian Buddhism, and would like to situate my work in the larger context of ancient Indian religions, and so I am looking for early Jain and Hindu treatments. I am aware of the Yoga Sutra chapter (and commentaries on it) on vibhutis, but am interested in other treatments as well. I am more interested in systematic discussions, but sustained narratives (from the epics, for example) of yogins and tapasvins displaying such powers would be worth considering as well. Any suggested references would be most appreciated! Brad Clough The American University in Cairo bclough at aucegypt.edu From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Fri Sep 30 13:45:40 2005 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 05 13:45:40 +0000 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <002701c5c43b$cc719ec0$2930cece@charlie> Message-ID: <161227076834.23782.7022771734476647358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not only in view of botanical evidence, I for one would suspect the origins of this idea not in India, but rather in 19th century British theories proposing a connection between Buddhists and Druids, for whom the oak seems to have been of special significance. This pedigree wouldn't make the idea particularly respectable, I guess. Best regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From bclough at AUCEGYPT.EDU Fri Sep 30 16:56:15 2005 From: bclough at AUCEGYPT.EDU (bclough) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 05 16:56:15 +0000 Subject: Supernormal Powers in Ancient Indian Traditions Message-ID: <161227076837.23782.2658254805967916506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, (Apologies to RISA subscribers for cross-listing) I am working on the topic of supernormal powers ("divine" ear and eye, knowledge of others' thoughts, memory of past lives, and other siddhis/rddhis) in Indian Buddhism, and would like to situate my work in the larger context of ancient Indian religions, and so I am looking for early Jain and Hindu treatments. I am aware of the Yoga Sutra chapter (and commentaries on it) on vibhutis, but am interested in other treatments as well. I am more interested in systematic discussions, but sustained narratives (from the epics, for example) of yogins and tapasvins displaying such powers would be worth considering as well. Any suggested references would be most appreciated! Brad Clough The American University in Cairo bclough at aucegypt.edu From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Fri Sep 30 23:59:39 2005 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 05 16:59:39 -0700 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <9C8D7180-098F-4287-9522-760BDD33B218@alma.unibo.it> Message-ID: <161227076845.23782.12846561313581660086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alex Passi wrote: >.... The same texts also says that they are living with their >sisters, "sakAhi bhagInihi", so as not to spoil their race. This >would suggest a multiple pseudo-etymology. First, they are not "living" with their sisters (the text has samvaasa), or only in the sense that we use the term 'cohabit' in contemporary English; they are having sex with their sisters, and the Pali goes out of its way to say "their very own [full] sisters," while other texts indicate that these are their agnatic half-sisters. The account of the incestuous origins of the Sakya clan from the sons and daughters (in some versions, half-sisters) of King Iskvaku appears in many sources. I have not seen it suggested elsewhere that this is related to the etymology of the name, although this fact itself does not suggest that it is not. If it is, however, it would, of course, only work in MIA; Skt sources, for example the Mulasarvastivada Vinaya version in Skt, refer to svakasvakaa bhaginii, opposed to vaimaat.rkaa bhaginii. (I have written rather a lot about this in a book now under review). JAS -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies Director of South & Southeast Asian Languages Program UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From a.passi at ALMA.UNIBO.IT Fri Sep 30 22:21:20 2005 From: a.passi at ALMA.UNIBO.IT (Alex Passi) Date: Sat, 01 Oct 05 00:21:20 +0200 Subject: Oak and the Tribe of the Buddha In-Reply-To: <433D4185.122.10EE9E1@localhost> Message-ID: <161227076842.23782.8698119326541174969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the association of the Shakyas (zAkya) with the Shaka (zAka) tree, there is a canonical source in dIghanikAya 3.1.16 (ambaTTha sutta). In the Pali episode -- basically the same one the Saundarananda refers to -- the sakya princes, sons of ukkAka (=ikSvAku), are said to take their dwelling in a sAka grove, thence the name. The same texts also says that they are living with their sisters, "sakAhi bhagInihi", so as not to spoil their race. This would suggest a multiple pseudo-etymology. Alex Passi Bologna