From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  4 21:43:26 2005
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 05 22:43:26 +0100
Subject: Isogamy in Mahabharata 5.33.98
Message-ID: <161227076454.23782.5708410518651770443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In fact, my question was partly based on Goldman's work. Given their own
history of hypergamy, why would the Bhargavas introduce a rule requiring
isogamy?

Regards
S. Palaniappan

On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:44:43 -0500, adheesh sathaye
<adheesh at OCF.BERKELEY.EDU> wrote:

>Robert Goldman's _Gods, Priests, and Warriors_ (1976) examines the
>anuloma marriages of the Bhargava Brahmans in the Sanskrit Mbh.
>
>Best,
>
>
>Adheesh Sathaye
>University of Chicago
>
>On May 30, 2005, at 11.18 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
>
>> In Van Buitenen's translation of Mahabharata, we find in the Viduraniti
>> section (5.33.98)
>>
>> "If he weds in his rank and not beneath him
>> Is friendly and deals and converses with equals,
>> And gives first place to the quality,
>> He is wise and his ways are well-conducted."
>>
>> Given the instances of hypergamy seen in Mahabharata, has anybody
>> commented
>> on this?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Regards
>> S. Palaniappan
>>




From anna.luzia at LYCOS.COM  Thu Jun  9 09:39:54 2005
From: anna.luzia at LYCOS.COM (annette heitmann)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 05 04:39:54 -0500
Subject: Institutions teaching Sanskrit worldwide
Message-ID: <161227076458.23782.17169837036008131392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Try this:

http://www.fak12.uni-muenchen.de/ind/german-indology.htm#Anfang
and

this: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/Indology.html
and: 
http://www.duei.de/ifa/show.php/de/content/asien-internet/forschung-e-us.html
and check the documents listed.

Greetings,

A. L. Heitmann


----- Original Message -----
From: "McComas Taylor" <McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU>
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Institutions teaching Sanskrit worldwide
Date:         Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:39:08 +1100

> 
> priyamitrANi
> 
> namo namaH
> 
> I have a vague memory of seeing a list of institutions all over the world
> that teach Sanskrit, but I have been unable to relocate it. Can anyone help
> me?
> 
> With thanks in advance
> 
> McComas
> 
> 
> 
> ========================================
> McComas Taylor
> Centre for Asian Societies and Histories
> Faculty of Asian Studies
> The Australian National University
> ACT 0200
> 
> (Baldessin Annex, Bldg 105A)
> 
> Tel. +61 2 6125 8658 (Wed-Fri)
> 
> 


-- 
_______________________________________________
NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple dating sites at once.
http://datingsearch.lycos.com




From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Thu Jun  9 12:41:19 2005
From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 05 12:41:19 +0000
Subject: Institutions teaching Sanskrit worldwide
In-Reply-To: <20050609093954.218293384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <161227076461.23782.17683439870493030140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#IndolSem

(Please remove eventual line break.)


R.G.



********************************************************************

Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien
(Dept. of Indology)

37070 G?ttingen, Germany
Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83
Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61
gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de

FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm
In English:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm




From Scharf at BROWN.EDU  Thu Jun  9 19:16:57 2005
From: Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf)
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 05 15:16:57 -0400
Subject: elves: Indic counterpart?
In-Reply-To: <001b01c56019$df522a40$2930cece@charlie>
Message-ID: <161227076463.23782.14991235607141730418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Etymologically, elf derives from IE albho 'white' and is akin to 
Latin albus 'white' as in albino.  This hints to me that the ancient 
concept of elf was more at a ghost for which the Sanskrit term would 
be 'bhUta'.  But they hardly resemble Tolkeins elves.  As mentioned 
by MK, the vidyAdhara 'knowledge-bearers' of texts such as the 
brhatkathAschlokasangraha seem to share their preservation of 
knowledge and love of music however.  The menacing aspect of Yakzas 
and Gandharvas, however, should not exclude them from comparison to 
Tolkein's elves; the dwarves certainly considered them menacing.
Peter

-- 
**************************************************
Peter M. Scharf             (401) 863-2720 office
Department of Classics      (401) 863-2123 dept
Brown University
PO Box 1856                 (401) 863-7484 fax
Providence, RI 02912        Scharf at brown.edu
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/Scharf/
http://sanskritlibrary.org/
**************************************************




From ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Tue Jun 14 09:13:07 2005
From: ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Ernst Steinkellner)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 05 11:13:07 +0200
Subject: New from Vienna
Message-ID: <161227076465.23782.8084719619203804041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Very sorry, my fault. Try .../Mat.html
Best wishes,
Ernst Steinkellner
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Lusthaus" <vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: New from Vienna


> Dear Dr. Steinkellner,
>
> This new attempt at Dignaga's text is exciting news. However, the link
> doesn't work. The oeaw site gives this message:
>
> Die von Ihnen angeforderte Seite konnte nicht gefunden werden!
> The requested page was not found on the server!
>
> Is there a different link than www.oeaw.ac.at/Mat/dignaga_PS_1.pdf  ?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Dan Lusthaus
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ernst Steinkellner" <ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT>
> To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:54 AM
> Subject: New from Vienna
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
> Following the efforts of H. R. Rangaswamy Iyengar in 1930, the Muni
> Jambuvijaya in 1961, 1966,1976, and Masaaki Hattori in 1968, a further
> attempt at reconstructing the Sanskrit text of Dignagats Pramanasamuccaya
> with its Vrtti is now available for the first chapter "On Perception" as 
> PDF
> under the address www.oeaw.ac.at/Mat/dignaga_PS_1.pdf:
>
>
>
> Dignagats Pramanasamuccaya, Chapter 1. 




From vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 16 21:40:21 2005
From: vasubandhu at EARTHLINK.NET (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 05 17:40:21 -0400
Subject: New from Vienna
Message-ID: <161227076468.23782.8801880577781886978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the correction. Madhav Deshpande had already provided the working
URL. I have looked over the new reconstruction and find it very interesting,
to my mind an important improvement in many places over the text
used/imagined by Hattori. Thank you for making this available.

Best wishes,
Dan Lusthaus

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernst Steinkellner" <ernst.steinkellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: New from Vienna


> Very sorry, my fault. Try .../Mat.html
> Best wishes,
> Ernst Steinkellner




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Jun 17 19:32:05 2005
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 05 15:32:05 -0400
Subject: Library of Congress Asian Reading Room opens Saturdays
Message-ID: <161227076470.23782.13863378277891352923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

June 17, 2005
Press contact: Audrey Fischer (202) 707-0022, afis at loc.gov 
Asian Division contact: Judy Lu (202) 707-2385, julu at loc.gov 

ASIAN READING ROOM OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
TO OPEN ON SATURDAYS

A Pilot Program, April 9 to October 8, 2005 

	The Asian Reading Room of the Library of Congress has been open on Saturdays for a trial period of six months since April 9, 2005.  The hours of the Asian Reading Room are Monday through Saturday from 8:30 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. 
	The Asian Division houses more than 2.7 million items in more than 200 Asian languages.  The collection covers topics ranging from art to zoology. For many Asian languages, it holds the largest collection of material outside of Asia.
	The Asian Division offers reference services pertaining to all countries in South, Southeast and East Asia, as well as the Pacific Islands.  The Asian Division also provides patrons with access to a wide variety of electronic resources that are only available within subscribing libraries.  Books can be requested upon arrival in the reading room. However, patrons using the collections on Saturdays are encouraged to request materials in advance. Requests can be faxed to (202) 252-3336 or sent by email to asianrequest at loc.gov. All requests should include the title, language and call number of the materials requested; the name of the patron and the patron's reader registration ID number.
	The Asian Reading Room is located in Room 150 of the Library's Thomas Jefferson Building, 10 First St. S.E., Washington, D.C., one block north of the Capitol South Metro station. The Library's 21 reading rooms are open to members of the public over the age of 18. Those wishing to enter the reading rooms must first obtain a reader registration card in Room 140 of the James Madison Building, 101 Independence Ave. S.E., Washington, D.C. Patrons are advised to come in from the Madison Building to avoid long waiting lines to enter the Library from the Jefferson Building. After getting a reader's card at Room LM 140 in the Madison Building, take the tunnel on "G" level, follow the signage to the Jefferson Building and then to the Asian Reading Room (Room LJ 150) on the first floor.




From hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU  Thu Jun 23 13:59:50 2005
From: hhhock at EXPRESS.CITES.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 08:59:50 -0500
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
Message-ID: <161227076476.23782.2972224449011216882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, it is accepted; and it has a beautiful counterpart in 
Urdu and Persian _jaan_, also meaning 'life' as well as 
being used as an honorific/term of endearment.  The Hindi 
(etc.) _jii_ might well be a calque of the Persian word.  
The root is also contained in Hindi _jii-naa_ 'to live'.

Cheers-ji,

Hans Henrich Hock

---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:20:43 +0200
>From: Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL>  
>Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI  
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
>Dear Listmembers,
>
>Could anyone, please, direct me to bibliographical 
references re: etymology 
>of Hindi (also Gujarati, Marathi) honorific particle jI?
>
>Turner (CDIAL 5240) connects it with jIva (<jIvatu). Is 
this etymology 
>widely accepted?
>
>Best,
>
>Artur Karp
>South Asian Studies Department
>Oriental Institute
>University of Warsaw
>Poland
Hans Henrich Hock
Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit
Department of Linguistics
4080 FLB, MC-168
University of Illinois
707 S. Mathews
Urbana, IL  61801-3652, USA
Tel. 1-217-333-3563, Fax 1-217-244-8430
E-mail hhhock at uiuc.edu

Ceterum censeo curiam internationalem iuris criminalis esse instituendam consensu senatus populique americani




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 23 16:15:41 2005
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 09:15:41 -0700
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.58.0506231102520.1552400@neo1>
Message-ID: <161227076493.23782.17801240397646981663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

and Ojha (I assume, like Jha, from Upaadhyaaya);
and, in Marathi, the pair Naage;sa - Naagoji
(short i; the -o- points to Naaga-upaadhyaaya?);
and Bha.t.toji (short i; from
Bha.t.ta-upaadhyaaya?).
Jan Houben

--- "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>
wrote:

> > but -jii is not equivalent to upadhyaaya,
> -arjee is.
> > Thus, we find the pairs in Bengali
> > Chattopadhyay/Chatterji
> > Mukhopadhyay/Mukherjee
> > etc.
> 
> 
> but then there's "Jhaa" ...   Gee, this is
> getting complicated!
> 
> -Tim Cahill
> 


__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com 




From rhayes at UNM.EDU  Thu Jun 23 15:44:35 2005
From: rhayes at UNM.EDU (Richard P. Hayes)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 09:44:35 -0600
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050623164224.032d9820@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227076485.23782.382697841504567014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 2005-06-23 at 17:00 +0200, Artur Karp wrote:

> It's just that  I have personal difficulty with imagining someone repeating 
> during one short conversation several times something like "may you live!", 
> and then obtaining in answer a similar portion of "'may- you-live!"s. 
> Persian calque? Possibly. But I have some buts, oops - doubts.

Bho Artur-ji,

Doubts always make me spring into action, if only to express a few of my
own. A nirukti that I was told long ago by one of my Sanskrit
professors, but that I had a hard time accepting, was that "-jii" is
what is left of "upaadhyaaya" after a couple of millennia of truncation.
What makes this plausible, at least as a sort of folk derivation, is
that several modern surnames ending in upaadhyaaya were anglicized as "-
jee"--Mukherjee, Chatterjee, Banarjee and so on. The full explanation
given to me was that "upaadhyaaya" came to be affixed as a term of
respect even to people who were not teachers in much the same way that
"Se?or" and "monsieur" became terms of respect even to people who were
not lords, and "Mister" came to be applied even to people whom nobody
missed.
 
-- 
Richard Hayes
Department of Philosophy
University of New Mexico




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 23 15:08:32 2005
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 10:08:32 -0500
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050623164224.032d9820@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227076481.23782.10498034310792041669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It will seem less counter-intuitive if one
recalls not an imperative, but the Buddhist Skt expression
ayu.smant, "(long-)lived." used as an honorific
term of address throughout the Mahaayaana suutra
literature. The etymology seems sure when
one considers the Nepali form -jyuu, where the labial
of jiiv- is clearly preserved.

Matthew Kapstein




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 23 16:00:09 2005
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 11:00:09 -0500
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <1119541476.5567.22.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <161227076487.23782.13133840628304408927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

but -jii is not equivalent to upadhyaaya, -arjee is.
Thus, we find the pairs in Bengali
Chattopadhyay/Chatterji
Mukhopadhyay/Mukherjee
etc.

Nevertheless, I used to introduce my students to
linguistic change in India with the example
of the common invitation to lunch in Bronx English:

jeet?

which, with just a little more erosion will no doubt
someday be pronounced "jee" as well!

kyaa socte haiN, jii?

Matthew Kapstein




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Thu Jun 23 16:04:15 2005
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 11:04:15 -0500
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.62.0506231049110.3813@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227076490.23782.8748437187011872968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> but -jii is not equivalent to upadhyaaya, -arjee is.
> Thus, we find the pairs in Bengali
> Chattopadhyay/Chatterji
> Mukhopadhyay/Mukherjee
> etc.


but then there's "Jhaa" ...   Gee, this is getting complicated!

-Tim Cahill




From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 23 16:35:20 2005
From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 11:35:20 -0500
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
Message-ID: <161227076498.23782.11033619316027709784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thought that Prof. Kapstein's earlier suggestion made some 
good semantic sense, and the Nepali parallel was helpful; 
nevertheless,  I had long thought that jii was derived from 
skt. aarya.  Such at least is the suggestion of Nehru's 
Discovery of India, where Pandit-ji [sic!] in a footnote 
somewhere so derives it on the authority of some Indologist 
(I don't have a copy of the book to hand, so I can't give 
the reference for the moment.)

So maybe aarya => M.I. ayya/ajja....=> jii.  I admit that 
I'm at a loss to explain the vowel here, though maybe M.K.'s 
parallel can help here.  If Nepali jyuu comes from the same 
source (rather than jiiv), and we presume an -u stem change 
(like in Apabhra.m"sa or B.H.S.), we're then just an elided 
initial away from the form...

wc

---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:18:56 +0200
>From: Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL>  
>Subject: Re: Etymology of honorific particle jI  
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
>At 17:08 2005-06-23, you wrote:
>
>>It will seem less counter-intuitive if one
>>recalls not an imperative, but the Buddhist Skt expression
>>ayu.smant, "(long-)lived." used as an honorific
>>term of address throughout the Mahaayaana suutra
>>literature. The etymology seems sure when
>>one considers the Nepali form -jyuu, where the labial
>>of jiiv- is clearly preserved.
>>
>>Matthew Kapstein
>
>
>Thanks for your comment. I'd say the use of the 
Pali/Buddhist Skt 
>expressions Ayasmant/AyuSmant is contextually quite 
limited.JI, on the 
>contrary, has a very wide field of usage. I would still 
like to see 
>equivalents of modern Hindi usage in Sanskrit or Prakrit 
(even Apabhramsha) 
>texts. Are there any attested? I just looked for 'jIva' in 
the text of 
>Svapnavasavadatta and Abhijnanasakuntala and found it used 
for not more 
>than 10 times, in one phrase: ciraM jIva/jIvatu.
>
>Artur K.




From mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 23 16:43:41 2005
From: mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 11:43:41 -0500
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050623174039.02d53d58@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227076500.23782.11966255083189538472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

But, Artur,

why should one require a precedent in Skt, Pkt or even
Apabhramsha? In Tibetan, for instance, we have a particle
-lags (pronounced -laa), which is derived from a classical
Tibetan honorific form of the verb "to be," and which is
added to proper names in modern Tibetan as
a polite form of address, rather like -jii. So far as
I am aware, one has almost no literary evidence of this
usage before very recent times, and then in texts that
are adopting a deliberately colloquial register. If -jii
reflects Persian convention, in particular, then its
absence in earlier material is even more understandable.

Jan Houben's -oji examples, like Bengali -arjee, retain
some trace of the upasarga.

The use of upadhyaaya as a feminin honorific (maataajii etc.),
though I would consider this a most welcome development,
seems also to raise some questions.

Matthew Kapstein




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Jun 23 12:20:43 2005
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 14:20:43 +0200
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <018401c570c1$4db7b010$0eb48283@steinkellner>
Message-ID: <161227076473.23782.1615381537037870348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Listmembers,

Could anyone, please, direct me to bibliographical references re: etymology 
of Hindi (also Gujarati, Marathi) honorific particle jI?

Turner (CDIAL 5240) connects it with jIva (<jIvatu). Is this etymology 
widely accepted?

Best,

Artur Karp
South Asian Studies Department
Oriental Institute
University of Warsaw
Poland




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Jun 23 15:00:41 2005
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 17:00:41 +0200
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <10fa0709.10f2eaf5.824c700@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <161227076479.23782.7121032974555193328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 15:59 2005-06-23, you wrote:

>Yes, it is accepted; and it has a beautiful counterpart in
>Urdu and Persian _jaan_, also meaning 'life' as well as
>being used as an honorific/term of endearment.  The Hindi
>(etc.) _jii_ might well be a calque of the Persian word.
>The root is also contained in Hindi _jii-naa_ 'to live'.
>
>Cheers-ji,

Thank you, Hans-jii

It's just that  I have personal difficulty with imagining someone repeating 
during one short conversation several times something like "may you live!", 
and then obtaining in answer a similar portion of "'may- you-live!"s. 
Persian calque? Possibly. But I have some buts, oops - doubts.

Is jiiva/jiivatu attested in some sanskrit (prakrit) texts in expressions 
equivalent to maataa-jii, pitaa-jii? Or achhaa-jii? Or with the meaning of 
"yes, right"? Or in phrases like pitaa-jii ne kahaa? "My 
father-may-you-live! said". Strange, if I may say. Sounds a bit incongruous.

How and by whom was this etymology accepted?

Regards-jii

Artur Karp 




From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET  Thu Jun 23 16:07:17 2005
From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 17:07:17 +0100
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050623164224.032d9820@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227076507.23782.11393615118349237952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I remember being told something similar but not exactly the same, 
viz. that it came from jiiva, "life", "soul", so that you were 
literally saying "my father's soul said".  Not an impossible 
development, when in Sanskrit you could very well say "my guru's feet 
said..."

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

At 5:00 pm +0200 23/6/05, Artur Karp wrote:
>At 15:59 2005-06-23, you wrote:
>
>>Yes, it is accepted; and it has a beautiful counterpart in
>>Urdu and Persian _jaan_, also meaning 'life' as well as
>>being used as an honorific/term of endearment.  The Hindi
>>(etc.) _jii_ might well be a calque of the Persian word.
>>The root is also contained in Hindi _jii-naa_ 'to live'.
>>
>>Cheers-ji,
>
>Thank you, Hans-jii
>
>It's just that  I have personal difficulty with imagining someone 
>repeating during one short conversation several times something like 
>"may you live!", and then obtaining in answer a similar portion of 
>"'may- you-live!"s. Persian calque? Possibly. But I have some buts, 
>oops - doubts.
>
>Is jiiva/jiivatu attested in some sanskrit (prakrit) texts in 
>expressions equivalent to maataa-jii, pitaa-jii? Or achhaa-jii? Or 
>with the meaning of "yes, right"? Or in phrases like pitaa-jii ne 
>kahaa? "My father-may-you-live! said". Strange, if I may say. Sounds 
>a bit incongruous.
>
>How and by whom was this etymology accepted?
>
>Regards-jii
>
>Artur Karp




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Jun 23 16:18:56 2005
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 18:18:56 +0200
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.62.0506231004470.3813@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227076496.23782.5984529151215588314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 17:08 2005-06-23, you wrote:

>It will seem less counter-intuitive if one
>recalls not an imperative, but the Buddhist Skt expression
>ayu.smant, "(long-)lived." used as an honorific
>term of address throughout the Mahaayaana suutra
>literature. The etymology seems sure when
>one considers the Nepali form -jyuu, where the labial
>of jiiv- is clearly preserved.
>
>Matthew Kapstein


Thanks for your comment. I'd say the use of the Pali/Buddhist Skt 
expressions Ayasmant/AyuSmant is contextually quite limited.JI, on the 
contrary, has a very wide field of usage. I would still like to see 
equivalents of modern Hindi usage in Sanskrit or Prakrit (even Apabhramsha) 
texts. Are there any attested? I just looked for 'jIva' in the text of 
Svapnavasavadatta and Abhijnanasakuntala and found it used for not more 
than 10 times, in one phrase: ciraM jIva/jIvatu.

Artur K.




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Jun 23 16:56:00 2005
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 18:56:00 +0200
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <42dade48.11014d48.81e7600@m4500-02.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227076502.23782.3803192833489403667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 18:35 2005-06-23, you wrote:

>I thought that Prof. Kapstein's earlier suggestion made some
>good semantic sense, and the Nepali parallel was helpful;
>nevertheless,  I had long thought that jii was derived from
>skt. aarya.  Such at least is the suggestion of Nehru's
>Discovery of India, where Pandit-ji [sic!] in a footnote
>somewhere so derives it on the authority of some Indologist
>(I don't have a copy of the book to hand, so I can't give
>the reference for the moment.)

Dear Whitney-ji and all interested,

I don't remember that fragment in Nehru's Discovery. But I do 
remember  ajja/jje used in Epigraphia Indica as honorific particle AFTER 
the names of donors. Makes better sense than "may-you-live". Now, in 
Sanskrit drama Arya is used often, exactly in the contexts where one expect 
modern jI. "Arya tathA" sounds quite familiar. And it makes, decidedly, 
better sense considering social realities.

Artur K.




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Jun 23 18:16:47 2005
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 05 20:16:47 +0200
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.62.0506231132330.3813@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227076504.23782.6794284763903295980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 18:43 2005-06-23, you wrote:

>But, Artur,
>
>why should one require a precedent in Skt, Pkt or even
>Apabhramsha?


Dear Matthew,

Here are two articles of my belief.

Words survive only when they can continue to be used in useful contexts.

When we look for the etymology of words, we try to establish their original 
forms, testing our hyptheses not only via phonetic/morphophonetic laws, but 
also, wherever it's possible - by checking the contexts in which the 
supposed protoforms used to be used.

And so - if jIva (or upAdhyAya) are thought to be the predecessors of 
modern jI, then they should have been used in similar contexts. But they 
are not.

Equivalences like:

zRNotv AryaH/o/A - suno jI
pravizatu AryaH/oA - baiTho jI

point to Arya; and they seem more convincing than impossible constructions 
like: pravizatu jIva/jIvatu.

Regards, ji

Artur K.




From nlpdept at YAHOO.CO.IN  Fri Jun 24 05:12:12 2005
From: nlpdept at YAHOO.CO.IN (Srinivasa Varakhedi)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 05 06:12:12 +0100
Subject: Etymology of honorific particle jI
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20050623193123.032c3468@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227076509.23782.9815871034606223343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members,
 
Really it's an interesting issue. I would like to add here my two comments.
 
1. In india tradition there was a belief that one should not take the elders name, as calling by name will decrease younger's life-time. This belief might have made them to spell the word 'jIvatu' immediately after the elder's name spelt. Over the time of , the ending part might have been omitted.
 
2. Interestingly I found a unique expression as "Bhadram te" in Valmiki Ramayanam hundreds of times in different contexts. Some times this expression sounds odd. But, may this kind of expression was an habbit in conversation.
 
regards,
srivara.

Artur Karp <karp at UW.EDU.PL> wrote:
At 18:43 2005-06-23, you wrote:

>But, Artur,
>
>why should one require a precedent in Skt, Pkt or even
>Apabhramsha?


Dear Matthew,

Here are two articles of my belief.

Words survive only when they can continue to be used in useful contexts.

When we look for the etymology of words, we try to establish their original 
forms, testing our hyptheses not only via phonetic/morphophonetic laws, but 
also, wherever it's possible - by checking the contexts in which the 
supposed protoforms used to be used.

And so - if jIva (or upAdhyAya) are thought to be the predecessors of 
modern jI, then they should have been used in similar contexts. But they 
are not.

Equivalences like:

zRNotv AryaH/o/A - suno jI
pravizatu AryaH/oA - baiTho jI

point to Arya; and they seem more convincing than impossible constructions 
like: pravizatu jIva/jIvatu.

Regards, ji

Artur K.

		
---------------------------------
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From treich at UCALGARY.CA  Tue Jun 28 18:03:15 2005
From: treich at UCALGARY.CA (Tamar Reich)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 13:03:15 -0500
Subject: Anugita article
Message-ID: <161227076513.23782.1274152381759985953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Herman,
Yes, I did write an article about a section of the anugita, but it has not 
seen the light yet. How did it come to your attention? It was for a 
Felicitation volume for Wendy Doniger that was supposed to be published by 
Seven Bridges Press. However, the publication has been delayed for ever 
because of financial difficulties that the press is experiencing, and now 
the same articles, with minor changes, are under review at Columbia 
University Press.
Tamar Reich

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: email address Vassilkov


Dear Tamar,
Some time ago I came across a reference to an article by you on
something concerning the Anugita. If I remember wel it was published in
a Felicitation volume for Wendy Doniger. The problem is I cannot find
the reference again (even Google fails me). A student of mine is at the
moment writing an MA thesis on some part of the Anugita and therefore he
(and I) are very interested in your article. On the other hand, our
library is very slow and if it concerns a new publication it will take
at least another year for the book to be on the shelves. Is it possible
for you to send me a photocopy of the article.

Sincerely yours

Herman Tieken

-----Original Message-----
From: Tamar Reich [mailto:treich at UCALGARY.CA]
Sent: donderdag 2 september 2004 6:08
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: email address Vassilkov

Dear Herman,

I have these addresses on record, but I don't know if they are current.
Yaroslav Vassilkov
  yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU
  vassilkov at hotmail.com

Tamar Reich


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:38 AM
Subject: email address Vassilkov


> Dear members, could anyone help me with the email address of Y.
Vassilkov?
>
> Herman Tieken
>




From H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Jun 28 12:48:23 2005
From: H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 14:48:23 +0200
Subject: email address Vassilkov
Message-ID: <161227076511.23782.4751360146795611026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Tamar,
Some time ago I came across a reference to an article by you on
something concerning the Anugita. If I remember wel it was published in
a Felicitation volume for Wendy Doniger. The problem is I cannot find
the reference again (even Google fails me). A student of mine is at the
moment writing an MA thesis on some part of the Anugita and therefore he
(and I) are very interested in your article. On the other hand, our
library is very slow and if it concerns a new publication it will take
at least another year for the book to be on the shelves. Is it possible
for you to send me a photocopy of the article.

Sincerely yours

Herman Tieken 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tamar Reich [mailto:treich at UCALGARY.CA] 
Sent: donderdag 2 september 2004 6:08
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: email address Vassilkov

Dear Herman,

I have these addresses on record, but I don't know if they are current.
Yaroslav Vassilkov
  yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU
  vassilkov at hotmail.com

Tamar Reich


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:38 AM
Subject: email address Vassilkov


> Dear members, could anyone help me with the email address of Y.
Vassilkov?
>
> Herman Tieken
>




From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Jun 28 20:42:51 2005
From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 15:42:51 -0500
Subject: Kumaarila images
Message-ID: <161227076515.23782.14990073070917164926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

Does anyone know of there being any notice or surviving 
examples of representations of Kumaarila, whether sculptural 
or otherwise?

Thanks in advance,

Whitney




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Jun 29 01:15:27 2005
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 05 21:15:27 -0400
Subject: Kumaarila images
Message-ID: <161227076517.23782.17575091682242189765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One can see the depiction of Kumarila sitting in a self-sacrifice fire in the Sanskrit-language movie on Sankara's life that is now available in a DVD format.


Madhav M. Deshpande

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Professor of Sanskrit & Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages & Cultures
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA



-----Original Message-----
From: Indology on behalf of Whitney Cox
Sent: Tue 6/28/2005 4:42 PM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Kumaarila images
 
Dear friends,

Does anyone know of there being any notice or surviving 
examples of representations of Kumaarila, whether sculptural 
or otherwise?

Thanks in advance,

Whitney