From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Mon Mar 1 10:49:19 2004 From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 04 11:49:19 +0100 Subject: Muray B. Emeneau's 1OOth birthday In-Reply-To: <15eab415d2ae.15d2ae15eab4@asianetindia.com> Message-ID: <161227073980.23782.12080071449951755451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> People who want to congratulate our colleague Murray B. Emeneau at the occasion of his 100th birthday (29-2-2004) can send a fax to Mrs. Schafer in Berkeley: 1+ 510 704 9952 Dr. Christophe Vielle Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud Institut orientaliste Place Blaise Pascal 1 B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve BELGIUM Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home) E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 2 20:12:01 2004 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 04 15:12:01 -0500 Subject: graaha/nakra/makara Message-ID: <161227073983.23782.10725572407639309736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remembered that I think I have seen another interpretation of Makara as a rasi, namely as a goat or maybe deer emerging from a snail shell. The latter presumably is a development from those representations of the makara in which the marine-animal tail is tightly wound in a spiral. Could the representations of the rasi also be influenced by Islamic representations of it? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Wed Mar 3 07:42:58 2004 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 04 07:42:58 +0000 Subject: graaha/nakra/makara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073985.23782.5036968626163703826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have seen mediaeval European versions like this (with a goat, naturally). Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK >I remembered that I think I have seen another interpretation of Makara >as a rasi, namely as a goat or maybe deer emerging from a snail shell. >The latter presumably is a development from those representations of the >makara in which the marine-animal tail is tightly wound in a spiral. > >Could the representations of the rasi also be influenced by Islamic >representations of it? > >Allen > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. >Senior Reference Librarian >Southern Asia Section >Asian Division >Library of Congress >Jefferson Building 150 >101 Independence Ave., S.E. >Washington, DC 20540-4810 >tel. 202-707-3732 >fax 202-707-1724 >athr at loc.gov >The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library >of Congress. From arganis at TODITO.COM Thu Mar 4 14:44:47 2004 From: arganis at TODITO.COM (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 04 14:44:47 +0000 Subject: asking?? Message-ID: <161227073987.23782.13207416651445767556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Professors: Pranam!!! I am looking for the e-mail address of Dr. Kim Knot from University of Leeds, UK. She is teachaer in this College. My best whishes Horacio F. Arganis U A de C. www.uadec.org.mx ___________________________________________________ - ?Toma el control con todito Card! L?der en Internet pre-pagado; www.toditocard.com - Evoluciona... ?es mejor con toditoshop! L?der de Comercio Electr?nico en M?xico; www.toditoshop.com From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK Thu Mar 4 14:58:30 2004 From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 04 14:58:30 +0000 Subject: asking?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073989.23782.15906110366918397858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 4/3/04 2:44 pm, Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez wrote: > Dearest Professors: > Pranam!!! I am looking for the e-mail address of Dr. Kim Knot from University > of Leeds, UK. She is teachaer in this College. > My best whishes > Horacio F. Arganis > U A de C. > www.uadec.org.mx Professor Kim Knott's e-mail address is k.knott at leeds.ac.uk John Brockington Professor J. L. Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Thu Mar 4 15:02:21 2004 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 04 16:02:21 +0100 Subject: asking?? Message-ID: <161227073993.23782.16632489575245969189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps here: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/about/senior_officers.htm Prof. Dr. Anand Nayak Universit? de Fribourg Institut de missiologie et de science des religions Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH- 1700 FRIBOURG (Switzerland) T?l: +41-26-300 74 38 ou +41-79-306 97 45 Fax: 41-26-300 97 68 Anand.Nayak at unifr.ch www.unifr.ch/imr -----Message d'origine----- De : Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] De la part de Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez Envoy? : jeudi, 4. mars 2004 15:45 ? : INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Objet : asking?? Dearest Professors: Pranam!!! I am looking for the e-mail address of Dr. Kim Knot from University of Leeds, UK. She is teachaer in this College. My best whishes Horacio F. Arganis U A de C. www.uadec.org.mx ___________________________________________________ - ?Toma el control con todito Card! L?der en Internet pre-pagado; www.toditocard.com - Evoluciona... ?es mejor con toditoshop! L?der de Comercio Electr?nico en M?xico; www.toditoshop.com From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Mar 5 14:37:32 2004 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 04 09:37:32 -0500 Subject: Kautilya In-Reply-To: <000201c402a4$45860680$2a7b4382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074000.23782.14978969317427087344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, I just recently found one: http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Arthashastra/index.htm yours cordially, Fran Pritchett On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > Do any of you know of an electronic edition with an English translation > of the Arthashastra? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 5 11:22:31 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 04 12:22:31 +0100 Subject: Kautilya Message-ID: <161227073995.23782.12996983059857152357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Do any of you know of an electronic edition with an English translation of the Arthashastra? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG Fri Mar 5 11:48:03 2004 From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 04 13:48:03 +0200 Subject: Kautilya Message-ID: <161227073997.23782.5516595785229287154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.orientalia.org/article371.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Lars Martin Fosse To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:22 PM Subject: Kautilya Dear members of the list, Do any of you know of an electronic edition with an English translation of the Arthashastra? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 5 16:08:06 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 04 17:08:06 +0100 Subject: SV: Kautilya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074002.23782.4795178056632505047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks! This is wonderful. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P? vegne av > Frances Pritchett > Sendt: 5. mars 2004 15:38 > Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Emne: Re: Kautilya > > > Dear Lars, > > I just recently found one: > http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Arthashastra/in dex.htm yours cordially, Fran Pritchett On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > Do any of you know of an electronic edition with an English > translation of the Arthashastra? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > From lel at LEL.MSK.RU Sat Mar 6 22:21:09 2004 From: lel at LEL.MSK.RU (Dmitriy N. Lielukhine) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 04 01:21:09 +0300 Subject: Kautilya Message-ID: <161227074005.23782.6540567970113232939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Be careful. R. Shamashastri translation is strongly obsolete (1915) and to use it hardly reasonably. Only rather qualitative translation is prepared by the author of the critical edition R.P.Kangle (it was publicated in India 1969, 1972, 1986, 1988, 1992 etc.). But this translation simply is not present in a network. Lielukhine D.N. Institute of Oriental Studies of Russian Academy of Sciences, Dep. of History., PhD, Member Secretary of "Oriental Epigraphy" ----- Original Message ----- From: Frances Pritchett To: Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Kautilya > Dear Lars, > > I just recently found one: > > http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Arthashastra/index. htm > > yours cordially, > Fran Pritchett > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > Do any of you know of an electronic edition with an English translation > > of the Arthashastra? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > From: > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Mar 7 12:45:35 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 04 13:45:35 +0100 Subject: SV: Kautilya In-Reply-To: <002801c403c9$53f520e0$a56df050@lel> Message-ID: <161227074008.23782.2368476245104445170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Lielukhine, I am aware that the translation by Kangle is the one to go by under normal circumstance. However, I am trying to devise a content analysis project for demonstration purposes, and in this context, any old translation will do as long as it is in electronic format. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P? vegne av > Dmitriy N. Lielukhine > Sendt: 6. mars 2004 23:21 > Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Emne: Re: Kautilya > > > Be careful. > R. Shamashastri translation is strongly obsolete (1915) and > to use it hardly reasonably. Only rather qualitative > translation is prepared by the author of the critical edition > R.P.Kangle (it was publicated in India 1969, 1972, 1986, > 1988, 1992 etc.). But this translation simply is not present > in a network. > > Lielukhine D.N. > Institute of Oriental Studies of Russian Academy of Sciences, > Dep. of History., PhD, Member Secretary of "Oriental Epigraphy" > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frances Pritchett > To: > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: Kautilya > > > > Dear Lars, > > > > I just recently found one: > > > > > http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/Artha shastra/index. htm > > yours cordially, > Fran Pritchett > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > Do any of you know of an electronic edition with an English > > translation of the Arthashastra? > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > From: > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > From arganis at TODITO.COM Sun Mar 7 23:34:46 2004 From: arganis at TODITO.COM (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 04 23:34:46 +0000 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <161227074010.23782.8284460498467846230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends: Thanks very mucch for your nice answers. Horacio F. Arganis ___________________________________________________ - ?Toma el control con todito Card! L?der en Internet pre-pagado; www.toditocard.com - Evoluciona... ?es mejor con toditoshop! L?der de Comercio Electr?nico en M?xico; www.toditoshop.com From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Tue Mar 9 06:36:12 2004 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 04 22:36:12 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about women? Message-ID: <161227074013.23782.1324277419301879027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anyone seen (other than in the story of Utpalavarna in the Mulasarvastivada Vinaya) a phrase, purported to be canonical ("The Blessed One said:"): Women bind men in eight ways: by dance, song, music, laughter, crying, appearance, touch [and here's the troublesome one] questions (?). The last item in Tibetan (all we have here) is rma 'byed pa, which might mean to ask a question, but more commonly, to wound. Any references much appreciated (and apologies for cross-listing to H-Buddhism and Indology)--JAS -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From pf at CIX.CO.UK Tue Mar 9 10:56:00 2004 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 04 10:56:00 +0000 Subject: invitation Message-ID: <161227074018.23782.15373684467845417432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> JAINA DOCTRINES AND DIALOGUES (6th JAINA STUDIES WORKSHOP AT SOAS) Tuesday 16.3.2004, School of Oriental and African Studies, Brunei Gallery Lecture Theatre 18.00-19.30 The 4th Annual Lecture On Jainism Nalini Balbir (Paris) "Thoughts on the meaning and the role of the Svet?mbara Canon in the history of Jainism" Wednesday 17.3.2004, School of Oriental and African Studies, Russell Square, Room 116 9.45-10.00 Tea and Coffee 10.00-10.40 Erik Seldeslachts (Gent) "Understanding Jaina geography" 10.40-11.20 Julia Hegewald (Oxford) "Meru, Samavasarana and Simhasana: The Recurrence of Three-Tiered Structures in Jaina Cosmology, Mythology and Ritual" 11.20-12.00 Hawon Ku Kim (University of Minnesota) "Formation of Identity: The Nineteenth-Century Jain Pilgrimage Site of Satrunjaya, Gujarat" 12.00-12.40 Peter Fluegel (SOAS) "The Lonkagaccha Re-Revisited" 12.40-13.40 Lunch 13.40-14.20 Frank Van Den Bossche (Gent) "Refutations of theism in Jainism and the West" 14.20-15.00 Eva DeClerq (Gent) "Doctrinal elements in Svayambhudeva's Paumacariu, with reference to his own sect" 15.00-15.40 Christopher Chapple (Los Angeles) "Classical Yoga and Jainism: A Comparison of Patanjali and Haribhadra" 15.40-16.20 Sin Fujinaga (Miyakonojo Miyazaki, Japan) "On Samudghata" 16.20-16.40 Tea and Coffee 16.40-17.20 Shalini Sinha (SOAS) "The Philosophy of the Self in Kundakunda" 17.20-18.00 Devendra Kumar Jain (Mumbai) "The Date of Kundakunda" 18.00-18.40 Jean-Pierre Osier (Paris) "Importance of faith in the last moments on account of Asadhara's Sagaradharmamrta VIII" All Welcome! Contact: Department for the Study of Religions, Faculty of Arts and Humanities, SOAS, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H OXG, 7898 4028, rw35 at soas.ac.uk From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Mar 9 11:41:53 2004 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 04 12:41:53 +0100 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074021.23782.16353916375695771750.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, I remember a loose parallel in Bhart.rhari's "Satakatraya (unfortunately, I do not have Kosambi's edition at hand; I could check it tomorrow): smitena bhaavena ca lajjayaa bhiyaa paraa"nmukhair ardhaka.taak.saviik.sa.naih / vacobhir iir.syaakalahena liilayaa samastabhaavai.h khalu bandhana.m striyaa.h // [In bad English:] "Women bind by combined manners: (1) smiling, (2) emotion, (3) bashfulness, (4) fear, (5) averted, half and side-looks, (6) words, (7) jealous quarrel, and (8) charm." "dance, song, music" in your quotation reminds one of the well-known formula nacca-giita-vaadita (e.g., Diighanikaaya I 6,11f.), or, in Ardhamaagadhii na.t.ta-giiya-vaaiya (Aupapaatikasuutra, ed. Leumann, p. 77, ? 107); the first three of the 64 arts, which are enumerated in the 3rd chapter of the Kaamasuutra, are giitam, vaadyam, n.rtyam. Best regards, Roland From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 9 21:51:19 2004 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 04 13:51:19 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074023.23782.9848967330912142207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Jonathan Silk wrote: > Has anyone seen (other than in the story of > Utpalavarna in the > Mulasarvastivada Vinaya) a phrase, purported to be > canonical ("The > Blessed One said:"): > > Women bind men in eight ways: by dance, song, music, > laughter, > crying, appearance, touch [and here's the > troublesome one] questions > (?). > > The last item in Tibetan (all we have here) is rma > 'byed pa, which > might mean to ask a question, but more commonly, to > wound. > Dear Jonathan, luckily this canonical passage is cited in the Sanskrit text of the samAhitA bhUmiH (belonging to the yogAcArabhUmiH), which I have, as you know, edited in my Ph.D. thesis (unfortunately, my dissertation has not been published yet). The passage runs as follows: ... aSTAbhiH sthAnaiH strI puruSaM badhnAti, tadyathA nRttena, gItena, hasitena , prekSitena, varNena, sparzena, Akalpena, vraNabhaGgena ca. The Tibetan translation of the samAhitA bhUmiH has rma 'byed pa, too. Quite obviously the Tibetan translators have tried to find a literal translation of the enigmatic vraNabhaGga. I was not able to solve the problem what the exact meaning of vraNabhaGga is. The corresponding passage in the Pali canon has vanabhaGga, for which, to the best of my knowledge, also no wholly convincing translation has been offered. I have collected some more materials, but they are rather difficult to interpret, either. I would like to suggest that we discuss further details of this problem off-list. However, if anyone has found evidence which gives a good hint what vraNabhaGga means in this context I would be very grateful for a message. Best wishes, Martin Delhey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Tue Mar 9 07:34:43 2004 From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 04 20:34:43 +1300 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074016.23782.688726699961705229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:36:12PM -0800, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Has anyone seen (other than in the story of Utpalavarna in the > Mulasarvastivada Vinaya) a phrase, purported to be canonical ("The > Blessed One said:"): > > Women bind men in eight ways: by dance, song, music, laughter, > crying, appearance, touch [and here's the troublesome one] questions > (?). > > The last item in Tibetan (all we have here) is rma 'byed pa, which > might mean to ask a question, but more commonly, to wound. > > Any references much appreciated (and apologies for cross-listing to > H-Buddhism and Indology)--JAS For what it's worth, a quick check of the Mahaavyutpatti and Yogaacaarabhuumi word lists threw up the following: rma: vraNa (Mvy 9486 & Yoga) 'byed pa: bheda, vicaya & vi-/bhaj:vibhajati (Yoga) Best regards, Richard Mahoney -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Mar 10 09:00:21 2004 From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 03:00:21 -0600 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: <20040309215119.46057.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227074028.23782.1447514554131792819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to explanations I received from the Tibetan mkhan-po with whom I studied many years ago, the late Sangs-rgyas-bstan-'dzin of Ser-lo, Nepal, rma-byed-pa in this context referred to teasing and poking fun in a way that was somewhat hurtful or embarrassing, which always seemed to me convincing as it conforms so well with immature men's experiences of women. As the Beatles put it: "She's the kind of girl who puts you down when friends are there, you feel the fool..." Matthew Kapstein From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Wed Mar 10 07:49:14 2004 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 07:49:14 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: <20040309215119.46057.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227074025.23782.13979083057665228046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ahem. Could it possibly be referring to the love-bites and scratches so popular in Indian love literature? These are generally thought to be endearing, and the sight of them the next morning makes the lovers feel amorous again. If this is not such a common idea in Tibetan literature, this would explain the confusion over the translation. Just a thought-- Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK At 1:51 pm -0800 9/3/04, Martin Delhey wrote: >--- Jonathan Silk wrote: >> Has anyone seen (other than in the story of >> Utpalavarna in the >> Mulasarvastivada Vinaya) a phrase, purported to be >> canonical ("The >> Blessed One said:"): >> >> Women bind men in eight ways: by dance, song, music, >> laughter, >> crying, appearance, touch [and here's the >> troublesome one] questions >> (?). >> >> The last item in Tibetan (all we have here) is rma >> 'byed pa, which >> might mean to ask a question, but more commonly, to >> wound. >> > >Dear Jonathan, > >luckily this canonical passage is cited in the >Sanskrit text of the samAhitA bhUmiH (belonging to the >yogAcArabhUmiH), which I have, as you know, edited in >my Ph.D. thesis (unfortunately, my dissertation has >not been published yet). > >The passage runs as follows: >... aSTAbhiH sthAnaiH strI puruSaM badhnAti, tadyathA >nRttena, gItena, hasitena , prekSitena, varNena, >sparzena, Akalpena, vraNabhaGgena ca. > > > >The Tibetan translation of the samAhitA bhUmiH has rma >'byed pa, too. Quite obviously the Tibetan translators >have tried to find a literal translation of the >enigmatic vraNabhaGga. >I was not able to solve the problem what the exact >meaning of vraNabhaGga is. The corresponding passage >in the Pali canon has vanabhaGga, for which, to the >best of my knowledge, also no wholly convincing >translation has been offered. >I have collected some more materials, but they are >rather difficult to interpret, either. >I would like to suggest that we discuss further >details of this problem off-list. >However, if anyone has found evidence which gives a >good hint what vraNabhaGga means in this context I >would be very grateful for a message. > >Best wishes, >Martin Delhey > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster >http://search.yahoo.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 10 19:59:40 2004 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 14:59:40 -0500 Subject: stock phrase about women? Message-ID: <161227074033.23782.5194547999735615415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie Roebuck's suggestion that vraNabhaGga refers to love-wounds sounds to me most plausible, but perhaps it's worth recording an idea I had before I read her message today. Could it mean "opening up (old) wounds," i.e. reminding their menfolk of past grievances? The reference then would be not just to ways in which women trap women by charming them (and even crying can be charming, as in the old chestnut from movies, "You're beautiful when you cry"), but to the ways women can manipulate men, whether by charm or otherwise. On the other hand, if the latter, one would expect nagging to be included as well. I had another idea that seems very improbable to me but which perhaps should be put down to be rejected. Could vraNa 'wound' figuratively refer to the vulva, as in English taboo 'gash'? This seems to me unlikely inter alia since Sanskrit generally addresses the physical phenomena of sex without much euphemism but also without deliberate foulness. Not to mention that a Buddhist text would be an odd place for such a vulgarism to occur. And if vraNa did mean 'vulva,' what would vraNabhaGga mean? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From Somadevah at AOL.COM Wed Mar 10 20:16:42 2004 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 15:16:42 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Re:_stock_phrase_about_women=3F?= Message-ID: <161227074036.23782.11975573709587928166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/3/04 9:56:26 pm, mdelhey at YAHOO.COM writes: > ... aSTAbhiH sthAnaiH strI puruSaM badhnAti, tadyathA > nRttena, gItena, hasitena , prekSitena, varNena, > sparzena, Akalpena, vraNabhaGgena? ca. > If emendation of the passage is warranted how about var.nabha"ngena (=svarabha"nga, vacobha"nga), the ``sweet stammering'' women are so commonly producing in kaavya. (I thought of vratabha"nga but that seems wholly negative) S.D.Vasudeva From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Thu Mar 11 00:13:34 2004 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 16:13:34 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074040.23782.4219046920235666025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Matthew suggested that the meaning of rma 'byed pa = vraNabhaNga may be > teasing and poking fun in a way that >was somewhat hurtful or embarrassing Paul Hackett similarly suggested (as I understand, on the basis of the Tibetan etymology only): it would seem to connote "to repeatedly injure [in the same manner]" or more colloquially, "to re-open [old] wounds," "to humiliate," etc. (After I wrote this, Allen Thrasher had some similar suggestions, also echoed earlier on H-Buddhism by Tony Duff and others) This idea has much to suggest it. BUT: the 8 cited items are supposed to be means by which women tempt men. Is it reasonable to think that they do so through humiliation? I can understand the suggestion that men--let us follow Matthew and say insecure men--would feel embarrassed by the teasing of women, but I at least do not follow how this would then bind the women to them. (I think we may leave aside the complex psychology by which some men are attracted to women who humiliate them--while this is true, it seems to me too arcane to stand as an explanation of which should no doubt be seen as a rather obvious list, offered without too much psychological subtlety.) Is it possible that, perhaps through some transference of meaning, we should take the word in a much 'lighter' sense of 'joshing', even 'coyly joshing'? In my off-list discussion with Martin Delhey, he and I seem agreed that there is something a bit strange in the Pali reading (at least as edited) vana-bhanga, that is with dental -n-, since we would certainly expect vaNa from vrana. It may be then that some Prakrit vaNa was understood in Skt as vrana, but in Pali as vana, which in any even strongly suggests that at some stage of the tradition(s) there was already either disagreement over the meaning of the term, or more likely no understanding of it at all. more grist for the mill. JAS -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 11 07:25:42 2004 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 23:25:42 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: <20040310204053.GM32158@mahoney.remote.comnet.co.nz> Message-ID: <161227074044.23782.8338951228608264776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Richard MAHONEY wrote: > On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 02:59:40PM -0500, Allen W > Thrasher wrote: > > [snip] > > > I had another idea that seems very improbable to > me but which > > perhaps should be put down to be rejected. Could > vraNa 'wound' > > figuratively refer to the vulva, as in English > taboo 'gash'? > > [snip] > > From Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary. > Version: 0.1a_8. [mw]: > > strIvraNa > 3[ str'I-vraNa ] m. the female organ Kpr. > > > Best regards, > > Richard MAHONEY Since there seem to be many colleagues out there who are very interested in the problem of how to understand rma byed pa and vraNa bhaGga, I would like to share some more of my findings with the list. The interpretation suggested by Allen W. Thrasher and Richard Mahoney, that is, to understand vraNa in the sense of strIvraNa, can, in my opinion, definitely not be ruled out. To the best of my knowledge, in Buddhist texts all the openings of the body are quite often referred to as vraNa. I have already considered this possibility before, but I was still unable to enter firm ground regarding the meaning of the whole compound vraNabhaGga. Somadeva's suggestion to emend the text is quite natural in view of the difficulties. However, vraNabhagGa is, in my opinion, clearly confirmed by the Tibetan translation rma 'byed pa, by Tibetan rma 'dral ba in another citation of this sermon in the yogAcArabhUmi (unfortunately a section which is not preserved in Sanskrit) and by the new text passage that has been found by Jonathan. Xuanzang's Chinese translation, however, has jiu li and cheng li as equivalents ("to perform the rites"?). Stephen Hodge's suggestion to interpret this in the sense of vandana is interesting, although I did not know that jiu li etc. can be understood in this way. I will think about this.But in my opinion it is hardly possible that Xuanzang had a Sanskrit text of the yogAcArabhUmi corrupted in two different places to something like *vandana instead of vraNa (or vraNabhaGga. The second YogAcArabhUmi passage mentioned above, however, contains a gloss, which seems to point in another direction. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult, either. Both the Tibetan and the Chinese expressions are somewhat problematic, but they possibly can go back to something like Skt. *sukumArAGga (to the best of my knowledge, usually this means something like "tender", "having a tender body (or limbs)"?). The meaning given in the PED seems to be inspired by Buddhaghosa's fanciful but not really convincing interpretation of the term. However, the passage from Chinese mentioned by Stephen Hodge may force me to consider this interpretation anew. To understand Pali vana- in this compound in the sense of "lust, desire" or the like is definitely a possibility. Meyer and Pischel offered this possibility (independently from each other) as early as 1909. vraNa may simply be a wrong Sanskritization of Middle Indic *vaNa = Skt. and pAli vana. This would, of course, indeed imply that the correct understanding of the whole word has been lost quite early in the text transmission (of the mUlasarvAstivAdin). This must be sufficient for the time being, since I am running out of time. Best wishes, Martin Delhey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Thu Mar 11 07:39:52 2004 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 04 23:39:52 -0800 Subject: vajraagni Message-ID: <161227074046.23782.1711304673374853836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Ratnagotravibhaaga 106.3, 118.17 we have the word varjaagni, evidently in the meaning lightning. I have found this word only in CDIAL 653b, the Skt being given as hypothetical for Old Awadhii bajaagi, fire caused by lightning. Has anyone seen the word elsewhere in Skt or MIA? -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 10 19:32:10 2004 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 01:02:10 +0530 Subject: a sloka to be identified Message-ID: <161227074030.23782.3820551116037179418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> te.saa.m uktau pramaa.na.m ca maduktau na katha.m bhavet / tasmaat subhaa.sita.m graahyam iti sarvatra ni"scita.m // `Their statements carry weight; why shouldn't mine? So it is everywhere agreed that "good counsel should be accepted".' Has anyone seen this sloka anywhere? An author I'm editing at the moment (Viire"svara, au of Rogaarogavaada) cites it as if it were a well-known dictum. He is arguing that his opinion is as good as anyone else's, in particular the opinions of ancient medical authors like Su"sruta. I suspect he is a nyaaya student, so perhaps this is a saying known to naiyaayikas? Only a guess. Best, Dominik From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Mar 11 03:36:29 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 03:36:29 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about women? Message-ID: <161227074042.23782.8860836256117740679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote: > Matthew suggested that the meaning of rma 'byed pa = vraNabhaNga may be > teasing and poking fun in a way that "was somewhat hurtful or embarrassing" > it would seem to connote "to repeatedly injure [in the same > manner]" or more colloquially, "to re-open [old] wounds," "to > humiliate," etc. > This idea has much to suggest it. BUT: the 8 cited items are supposed > to be means by which women tempt men. Is it reasonable to think that > they do so through humiliation? A couple of points: The Chinese equivalent citation given in the YBS is difficult to construe but does not suggest an overtly sexual connotation -- actually, C may be quite useless here since it suggests that "vandana" was read instead of "vra.na". How does the Chinese MSBhiV translate the term ? I am not sure if your specific passage occurs in the Chinese verson, but I found a passage which includes all the items in your list but also mentions "plying men with drink" and "picking flowers and plucking fruit" for them (Cf PED mentioned below). Could this latter item be the equivalent ? Unfortunately I do not have time to search through the Tibetan MSBhiV to cross-check. On the other hand, there is also a similar expression in Tibetan -- "rma 'byin" which is understood figuratively as "wounding through critical words". > In my off-list discussion with Martin Delhey, he and I seem agreed > that there is something a bit strange in the Pali reading (at least > as edited) vana-bhanga, that is with dental -n-, since we would > certainly expect vaNa from vrana. I too was puzzled by the dental "vana" form of the Pali -- as a derivative from "vanati", PED glosses it as "lust, desire", which may be relevent here. Your suggestion of an early divergence in the understanding of this term seems plausible. I also note that PED gives the compound "vana-bha'nga" under "vana" (wood, forest), glossed as "gleanings of the wood", ie "presents of wild flowers and fruit" -- as love tokens ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Thu Mar 11 08:26:07 2004 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 08:26:07 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: <000201c4071b$2e56d310$89684e51@zen> Message-ID: <161227074050.23782.1494128899365211713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As regards the eight ways in which men bind women (and vice versa) given at A IV 196f.: "a??hahi, bhikkhave, ?k?rehi puriso itthi? bandhati. katamehi a??hahi? ru??ena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; hasitena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; bha?itena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; ?kappena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; vanabha?gena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; gandhena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; rasena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati; phassena, bhikkhave, puriso itthi? bandhati. imehi kho, bhikkhave, a??hah?k?rehi puriso itthi? bandhati. te, bhikkhave, satt? subaddh?, ye phassena baddh?" ti. (Normyn font) The Pali expression vanabha'nga does not seem problematic in isolation. It is explained consistently both by Buddhaghosa in the A'nguttara commentary and in more detail in a series of Vinaya commentaries beginning with Sp III 527 & 529. Vanabha'nga is simply any growing thing gathered in the countryside (lit. forest) i.e. flowers, foliage and the like and (in this case) used in inter-personal relations or sexual play. (I notice one Sanskrit occurrence by the way - in the Raamaaya.na: 50480033 vanabha'nge ca ko 'syaartho raak.sasiinaa.m ca tarjane) As has been suggested, an earlier Prakrit form va.na- could either correspond to Sanskrit vana- or to Sanskrit vra.na-. So the Sanskrit sources cited could be following an older tradition of interpretation too. Or, we might be dealing with later more learned 'etymology'. Lance Cousins From karp at UW.EDU.PL Thu Mar 11 08:26:04 2004 From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 09:26:04 +0100 Subject: vajraagni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074048.23782.8698417787165683177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:39 2004-03-11, you wrote: >In the Ratnagotravibhaaga 106.3, 118.17 we have the word varjaagni, >evidently in the meaning lightning. I have found this word only in >CDIAL 653b, the Skt being given as hypothetical for Old Awadhii >bajaagi, fire caused by lightning. > >Has anyone seen the word elsewhere in Skt or MIA? CDIAL bajAgi from vajrAgni looks a bit oddly, one would expect bAjAgi (?) vajrAgni to be found in the Mbh once: 08012052c drauNAyaniM cAbhyahanat pRSatkair; vajrAgnivaivasvatadaNDakalpaiH Interestingly, Mbh. has also vaidyuta - agni: 01021009c tvam eva meghas tvaM vAyus tvam agnir vaidyuto 'mbare 12232018c vaidyuto 'gnir ivAkAze pazyaty AtmAnam AtmanA 12294020c vaidyuto 'gnir ivAkAze dRzyate ''tmA tathAtmani Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Wed Mar 10 20:40:53 2004 From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 09:40:53 +1300 Subject: stock phrase about women? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074038.23782.15619154367649344290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 02:59:40PM -0500, Allen W Thrasher wrote: [snip] > I had another idea that seems very improbable to me but which > perhaps should be put down to be rejected. Could vraNa 'wound' > figuratively refer to the vulva, as in English taboo 'gash'? [snip] >?From Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary. Version: 0.1a_8. [mw]: strIvraNa 3[ str'I-vraNa ] m. the female organ Kpr. Best regards, Richard MAHONEY -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 11 17:52:01 2004 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 09:52:01 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074060.23782.5402442586958141447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "L.S. Cousins" wrote: > As regards the eight ways in which men bind women > (and vice versa) > given at A IV 196f.: I suspect that the sutta according to which men, too, bind women in eight ways is a later addition by the Pali recension of the old canon. There is no corresponding sUtra in the Chinese ekottarAgama (T 125) p. 765c, where another recension of the sUtra on women binding men is found. Moreover, the second yogAcArabhUmi passage mentioned by me in an earlier message (zi 101a4ff. in the Peking [or "Qianlong"] edition seems only to presuppose that women bind men in eight ways and not vice versa. > ... > The Pali expression vanabha'nga does not seem > problematic in > isolation. It is explained consistently both by > Buddhaghosa in the > A'nguttara commentary and in more detail in a series > of Vinaya > commentaries beginning with Sp III 527 & 529. > Vanabha'nga is simply > any growing thing gathered in the countryside (lit. > forest) i.e. > flowers, foliage and the like and (in this case) > used in > inter-personal relations or sexual play. (I notice > one Sanskrit > occurrence by the way - in the Raamaaya.na: > 50480033 vanabha'nge ca ko 'syaartho raak.sasiinaa.m > ca tarjane) I see no cogent reason why we have to adopt an interpretation of a canonical term simply because it is put forward in the commentaries of the Theravaada tradition. Moreover, I am, in view of the incidents narrated earlier in the Raamaaya.na, quite convinced that vanabhanga has an entirely different meaning (something like "destruction of the forest") there, but maybe I am too hasty in this regard (I have not studied the passage in any detail). > As has been suggested, an earlier Prakrit form > va.na- could either > correspond to Sanskrit vana- or to Sanskrit vra.na-. > So the Sanskrit > sources cited could be following an older tradition > of interpretation > too. Or, we might be dealing with later more learned > 'etymology'. > Lance Cousins I agree that the Sanskritization vra.na can be based on an old tradition of interpretation. And suddenly I am not too sure anymore that Pali vana- reflects the original wording. Yet another problem to think about .. Martin Delhey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 11 22:36:05 2004 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 14:36:05 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074067.23782.8670536294187152146.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "L.S. Cousins" wrote: > What would be the motive for such a later addition ? > Are you > postulating a growing tendency towards gender > equality in the > developing Theravaada ? No, I am not. The reason for an addition may be quite simple. There are other places in the Pali canon in which a mutual attraction of men and women is described. It seems to me quite natural that at a certain point in the transmission of the canonical texts the second sutta was added because it was believed that in this case, too, the same is true for both women and men. In my opinion, this is far more probable than the opposite case, namely, that a part of the tradition came to the conclusion that one of Buddha's sermons can be disregarded because it is a forgery or even simply not worth to be transmitted. > I don't think anybody has suggested that. But to > ignore the > commentaries is not very sensible, especially in a > case like this. It > is clear that we are not dealing with a single > isolated comment but > rather with a established tradition of exegesis in > the Vinaya > commentaries. Most probably what we have here is the > reason given by > the Theravaada tradition or its sources for the > interpretation of > Middle Indian *va.nabha'nga as equivalent to > Sanskrit vana-. > > But the fact that this is clearly the traditional > interpretation in > the Pali sources does not prove that it is the > original meaning of > the 'canonical' passage (which may well have had > variations both in > form and in interpretation from an early date). > Quite obviously, concerning the commentarial interpretation of vanabhanga, we simply misunderstood each other. I do not suggest to simply ignore the commentarial traditions (they must, of course, always be taken in consideration when dealing with the root texts; even when one is inclined not to follow their interpretation they are still worthwhile in understanding the commentators' thought itself), and you obviously do not think that their interpretation, well-established as it is, has to be in accordance with the original meaning. Your suggestion that the reading vanabhanga in itself is a result of this interpretation of an earlier *va.nabhanga is very inspiring. I shall definitely think about it. It is a possiblity which I have neglected so far. Martin Delhey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Mar 11 16:10:28 2004 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 17:10:28 +0100 Subject: a sloka to be identified In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074055.23782.7149023174336163722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >Sheldon has improved my translation, for which many thanks: > > > >> te.saa.m uktau pramaa.na.m ca maduktau na katha.m bhavet / >> tasmaat subhaa.sita.m graahyam iti sarvatra ni"scita.m // >> >> > > Their statements carry weight; why shouldn't mine? > Therefore in every case it's clear that whatever is > well said (= well argued) should be accepted. > >Dominik > > For what it's worth, I went through files on my harddisk, or rather, had a search program speed through them. Nothing turned up in (in comparison to Dominik's text) earlier NyAya texts like the NyAyabhUSaNa or the NyAyamaJjarI, or the NyAyabhASya; I ran searches for "uktau" and "subhASita" respectively, to be on the safe(r) side of potential typos in the files. As for the translation, I had thought along similar lines in terms of construction, but in slightly different terms. The first half calls into question, and implicitly rejects, that the weight (authority, reliability) of a statement depends on the speaker. This is patently unreasonable, for the quality of the statement counts, and not the speaker. Such seems to be the reasoning. But then I would expect "tasmAt" to be a part of the iti-clause, and "sarvatra ni'scitam" to serve, as it were, as an emphatic rhetorical "door-slammer". In that case, it seems more plausible to me that the author of the verse, whoever it was, would emphasise that this principle is obvious, or clear, or known, everywhere, and not necessarily that it is clear in every case. This would be my suggestion, of course very hypothetical as I don't know the context (where, for instance, do the duals in the first half come from? What's with the strange position of "ca"? Metri causa?): "Their statements carry weight; why shouldn't mine? Therefore [i.e. because it is unreasonable to accord weight to statements on the basis of the speaker] what is well said should be accepted - this is ascertained/clear everywhere [so don't even think about arguing with me any further]." (or: "as is ascertained/clear everywhere") Best regards, Birgit Kellner From paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT Thu Mar 11 17:24:42 2004 From: paolo.magnone at UNICATT.IT (Paolo Magnone) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 18:24:42 +0100 Subject: a sloka to be identified In-Reply-To: <40508F74.9050809@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227074057.23782.1372476795697732007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, I should like to put forward a different interpretation that struck me on first reading the zloka, which might not be altogether unreasonable in itself (although, of course, I don't know about the context) especially as it appears to me to suit the syntax better. Here it is: Their statements carry weight, but mine don't: how can that be? [And yet it so happens:] therefore [sound reasoning is not enough but] one should [also] ensure refinement of speech, as everybody knows. I think this deals satisfactorily, inter alia, with Birgit's misgivings about the 'strange' position of ca -- now correlative of na -- (and the "uktau" must surely be locatives?). This also restores some plausible meaning to "tasmAt" as a conclusive conjuction. Otherwise, "tasmAt" does not really carry any conclusive force at all, because no proper inference is in sight. It rather amounts to saying: "Their statements carry weight: how can you say mine don't? Therefore, they do!" which is rather poor logic, I daresay. Best, Paolo Magnone =============== ORIGINAL MESSAGE =============== On 11/03/2004 at 17.10 Birgit Kellner wrote: >Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >>Sheldon has improved my translation, for which many thanks: >> >> >> >>> te.saa.m uktau pramaa.na.m ca maduktau na katha.m bhavet / >>> tasmaat subhaa.sita.m graahyam iti sarvatra ni"scita.m // >>> >>> >> >> Their statements carry weight; why shouldn't mine? >> Therefore in every case it's clear that whatever is >> well said (= well argued) should be accepted. >> >>Dominik [...] >As for the translation, I had thought along similar lines in terms of >construction, but in slightly different terms. The first half calls into >question, and implicitly rejects, that the weight (authority, >reliability) of a statement depends on the speaker. This is patently >unreasonable, for the quality of the statement counts, and not the >speaker. Such seems to be the reasoning. But then I would expect >"tasmAt" to be a part of the iti-clause, and "sarvatra ni'scitam" to >serve, as it were, as an emphatic rhetorical "door-slammer". In that >case, it seems more plausible to me that the author of the verse, >whoever it was, would emphasise that this principle is obvious, or >clear, or known, everywhere, and not necessarily that it is clear in >every case. > >This would be my suggestion, of course very hypothetical as I don't know >the context (where, for instance, do the duals in the first half come >from? What's with the strange position of "ca"? Metri causa?): > >"Their statements carry weight; why shouldn't mine? Therefore [i.e. >because it is unreasonable to accord weight to statements on the basis >of the speaker] what is well said should be accepted - this is >ascertained/clear everywhere [so don't even think about arguing with me >any further]." (or: "as is ascertained/clear everywhere") > >Best regards, > >Birgit Kellner ================================================= From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Thu Mar 11 19:10:15 2004 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S. Cousins) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 19:10:15 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: <20040311175201.33950.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227074064.23782.3045268026136723749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Delhey writes: >I suspect that the sutta according to which men, too, >bind women in eight ways is a later addition by the >Pali recension of the old canon. What would be the motive for such a later addition ? Are you postulating a growing tendency towards gender equality in the developing Theravaada ? >There is no >corresponding sUtra in the Chinese ekottarAgama (T >125) p. 765c, where another recension of the sUtra on >women binding men is found. I have the impression that the source for the Chinese translation of the Ekottaraagama is rather late, but others may be better informed on that. >Moreover, the second >yogAcArabhUmi passage mentioned by me in an earlier >message (zi 101a4ff. in the Peking [or "Qianlong"] >edition seems only to presuppose that women bind men >in eight ways and not vice versa. If there were originally two suttas, I do not find it surprising that sometimes only the one referring to the effect of women on men is cited in later sources. If there was originally only one, the decision to add a second discourse presenting the effect of men on women would certainly be most interesting and would need to be accounted for. It should be noted that groups of small suttas each presenting a slightly different angle on matters are quite common in the A'nguttara. > > The Pali expression vanabha'nga does not seem >> problematic in >> isolation. It is explained consistently both by >> Buddhaghosa in the >> A'nguttara commentary and in more detail in a series >> of Vinaya >> commentaries beginning with Sp III 527 & 529. >> Vanabha'nga is simply >> any growing thing gathered in the countryside (lit. >> forest) i.e. >> flowers, foliage and the like and (in this case) >> used in > > inter-personal relations or sexual play. > >I see no cogent reason why we have to adopt an >interpretation of a canonical term simply because it >is put forward in the commentaries of the Theravaada >tradition. I don't think anybody has suggested that. But to ignore the commentaries is not very sensible, especially in a case like this. It is clear that we are not dealing with a single isolated comment but rather with a established tradition of exegesis in the Vinaya commentaries. Most probably what we have here is the reason given by the Theravaada tradition or its sources for the interpretation of Middle Indian *va.nabha'nga as equivalent to Sanskrit vana-. But the fact that this is clearly the traditional interpretation in the Pali sources does not prove that it is the original meaning of the 'canonical' passage (which may well have had variations both in form and in interpretation from an early date). Lance Cousins From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 11 14:40:51 2004 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 04 20:10:51 +0530 Subject: a sloka to be identified Message-ID: <161227074053.23782.17829424726882669032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sheldon has improved my translation, for which many thanks: > te.saa.m uktau pramaa.na.m ca maduktau na katha.m bhavet / > tasmaat subhaa.sita.m graahyam iti sarvatra ni"scita.m // Their statements carry weight; why shouldn't mine? Therefore in every case it's clear that whatever is well said (= well argued) should be accepted. Dominik From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Mar 12 00:05:46 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 04 00:05:46 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about women? Message-ID: <161227074072.23782.6111630729337615551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Delhey wrote: > However, vraNabhagGa is, in my opinion, clearly confirmed by > the Tibetan translation rma 'byed pa, by Tibetan rma > 'dral ba in another citation of this sermon in the > yogAcArabhUmi (unfortunately a section which is not > preserved in Sanskrit) Whereabouts does the "rma 'dral-ba" occur ? I cannot turn up anything and there is nothing listed under that in Yokoyama's Index. > Xuanzang's Chinese translation, however, has jiu li > and cheng li as equivalents ("to perform the rites"?). > Stephen Hodge's suggestion to interpret this in the > sense of vandana is interesting, although I did not > know that jiu li etc. can be understood in this way. I > will think about this. Yokoyama's Index gives a number of examples where it forms part of compounds equivalent to "vandana" > But in my opinion it is hardly > possible that Xuanzang had a Sanskrit text of the > yogAcArabhUmi corrupted in two different places to > something like *vandana instead of vraNa (or > vraNabhaGga. Having translated from Chinese / Tibetan the Paryaya-samgrahani, the Vivarana-samgrahani and now in process of the Vastu-samgrahani, I have concluded that either the scribal quality of Xuanzang's YBS left something to be desired -- there are many misreadings which can be attributed to scibal confusion or the limited abilties of Xuanzang's team to read Indic script. There are also many cases were the translators have completely misunderstood the meaning and syntax of the underlying Sanskrit as can be established by the Tibetan text (not so hot either in terms of translation quality) and canonical Pali / Sanskrit parallels. I do not know if this applies to the earlier portions of the YBS as I have not yet scrutinized them in fine detail. > vraNa may simply be a wrong Sanskritization of Middle > Indic *vaNa = Skt. and pAli vana. This would, of > course, indeed imply that the correct understanding of > the whole word has been lost quite early in the text > transmission (of the mUlasarvAstivAdin). Whatever the original term may have been, I think you must be right about the loss of understanding. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu Mar 11 23:58:56 2004 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 04 00:58:56 +0100 Subject: a sloka to be identified In-Reply-To: <200403111824420078.020A49BC@mail.tin.it> Message-ID: <161227074070.23782.12970335523158779285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paolo Magnone wrote: >Dear friends, > >I should like to put forward a different interpretation that struck me on first reading the zloka, which might not be altogether unreasonable in itself (although, of course, I don't know about the context) especially as it appears to me to suit the syntax better. Here it is: > > Their statements carry weight, but mine don't: how can that be? > [And yet it so happens:] therefore [sound reasoning is not enough but] > one should [also] ensure refinement of speech, as everybody knows. > >I think this deals satisfactorily, inter alia, with Birgit's misgivings about the 'strange' position of ca -- now correlative of na -- (and the "uktau" must surely be locatives?). > > > Ouch, that was painful! I really must have had a bad Sanskrit syntax day. Sincere apologies for this obvious blunder. >This also restores some plausible meaning to "tasmAt" as a conclusive conjuction. Otherwise, "tasmAt" does not really carry any conclusive force at all, because no proper inference is in sight. It rather amounts to saying: "Their statements carry weight: how can you say mine don't? Therefore, they do!" which is rather poor logic, I daresay. > > > I won't go into further details, as Dominik is first of all looking for a source of this verse, and not for a translation. Paolo's suggestion doesn't convince me because it requires supplying a fair bit of unstated information, and this seems unnecessary as more straightforward readings are, I believe, possible, even without leaving the poor author with "poor logic". One might also ask why the author should at this point have to produce waterproof logic, for as far as I remember, the text in question is an ironic treatise aiming to demolish the foundations of medical science. It would therefore not be that surprising if one found instances of sophistry in it, and this verse may be one of them (this might even be relevant regarding possible sources, if this is indeed a clear-cut quotation). But anyway, since it is rather pointless to discuss this further without more context, I'll leave it at that and humbly hope for a better syntax day tomorrow. Best regards, Birgit Kellner From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Mar 12 08:02:23 2004 From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 04 10:02:23 +0200 Subject: vajraagni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074075.23782.8473518347761570283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The word vajraagni- also pops up in my database at Divyaavadaana (ed. Vaidya) 269.027. na ;sastravajraagnivi.saa.ni pannagaa.h kurvanti pii.daa.m nabhaso 'vikaari.na.h/ AG > From: Jonathan Silk > Reply-To: Indology > Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:39:52 -0800 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: vajraagni > > In the Ratnagotravibhaaga 106.3, 118.17 we have the word varjaagni, > evidently in the meaning lightning. I have found this word only in > CDIAL 653b, the Skt being given as hypothetical for Old Awadhii > bajaagi, fire caused by lightning. > > Has anyone seen the word elsewhere in Skt or MIA? > -- > Jonathan Silk > Department of Asian Languages & Cultures > Center for Buddhist Studies > UCLA > 290 Royce Hall > Box 951540 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 > phone: (310)206-8235 > fax: (310)825-8808 > silk at humnet.ucla.edu From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Mar 12 10:05:30 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 04 10:05:30 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about women? Message-ID: <161227074078.23782.3195297237049620154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin, Just to save you some bother, pls disregard the relevent part of my revious msg. After a further careful search, I did find the occurence of rma 'dral-ba in the YBS you mentioned. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Fri Mar 12 10:36:02 2004 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 04 11:36:02 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE:_stock_phrase_about_women=3F=C2=A0?= Message-ID: <161227074080.23782.17167416395829021924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ? It is also interesting to note there is no unaminous understanding of the term "rma 'byed-pa" even among native informants. Matthew Kapstein tells us his infomant thought it meant "teasing / poking fun" -- a meaning which seems plausible. Yet I have just been looking at Sumatiratna's Mun-sel sgron-me (Tib-Mong Dictionary) and there we find this gloss in Tibetan (with same sense in Mong): "mo-mtshan gdangs-pa" -- I'll leave translations to others but the colloquial English would perhaps be "with spread / opened legs". So here we are back in the realm of the overtly sexual (pun unintended) ! I think Jonathan will eventually end up with a rather long footnote for this phrase :) In passing, could I also draw attention to this massive (approx 2900 pages) 2 volume Tibetan-Mongolian dictionary -- copies seem quite rare and little known even to Tibetologists -- but I have often found it exteremely useful for "decoding" Tibetan terms I have utterly failed to find anywhere else. Of course, there is no guarantee that the Mongolian (& sometimes accompanying Tib explanations) glosses are correct but they are very valuable all the same. For those who might be interested in tracking down a set, here are the details: Auth: Sumatiratna Title: Bod Hor kyi brda-yig ming-tshig don gsum gsal-bar-byed-pa mun-sel sgron-me Pub: Corpus Scriptorum Mongolorum (Ulan Batur 1959) From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Mar 13 03:04:54 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 03:04:54 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about men? Message-ID: <161227074086.23782.18009161513169207486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just an after-thought on what I wrote here: > So here we are back in the realm of the overtly sexual. It occurs to me that in the context of these eight means of binding men, the sudden mention of a rather sexually explicit item seems a bit out of context, a rather sudden "gear-change" as it were, Richard Mahoney's collection of passages nonwithstanding. All things considered, I would rank the suggested possible interpretations regarding the ultimate underlying / original meaning in my order of preference as follows: 1. Love-tokens in the form of flowers and fruit 2. Joshing banter 3. Open-spread vagina Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 13 11:35:49 2004 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 03:35:49 -0800 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: <000201c408a8$792851f0$93604e51@zen> Message-ID: <161227074090.23782.3199913994312556371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Stephen Hodge wrote: > Just an after-thought on what I wrote here: > > > So here we are back in the realm of the overtly > sexual. > > It occurs to me that in the context of these eight > means of binding men, the > sudden mention of a rather sexually explicit item > seems a bit out of > context, a rather sudden "gear-change" as it were, > Richard Mahoney's > collection of passages nonwithstanding. I definitely agree with you. Therefore, we are even unable to take for granted that the mUlasarvAstivAda term vra.nabhanga was understood in this way, let alone the original word underlying vra.nabhanga. The discussion confirmed my impression that the evidence we have is not sufficient to solve most of the problems I had in this context, although still very enlightening messages are coming in. Thanks to the many instructive and insightful remarks by the learned members of this list, the footnote I wrote some years ago will definitely become longer and more substantial (and I am of course also looking forward to reading Jonathan Silk's footnote ...). I hope to publish my critical edition of the Samaahitaa Buumi.h later this year. Many thanks to all of you who have shared (and are still sharing) their knowledge with me both on the list and off-list. I shall take the liberty to discuss some of the many interesting topics mentioned further via direct communication with some of you. Unfortunately, my schedule is rather tight at the moment; so please be patient. Martin Delhey Goettingen __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com From Somadevah at AOL.COM Sat Mar 13 10:55:52 2004 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 05:55:52 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Re:_stock_phrase_about_men=3F?= Message-ID: <161227074088.23782.5635689075646163211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > So here we are back in the realm of the overtly sexual. > This seems to me all very unlikely. On closer inspection it appears that striivra.na occurs in only one verse in all of the Sanskrit literature I have available, sometimes (dubiously) claimed to be part of the "Satakatraya of Bhrat.rhari and discussed by some Ala"nkaarikas and found in some anthologies. The verse is quoted by Mamma.ta as an example of the defect of "obscenity" (a"sliila) becoming a poetic virtue because of context (a renunciatory theme): uttaanocchuunama.n.duukapaa.titodarasa.mnibhe/ kledini striivra.ne saktir ak.rme.h kasya jaayate? This hardly qualifies it as a well-known expression in Sanskrit, it is a metphor (ruupaka) invented by one poet and not used by anyone else as far as I can see. The -bha"nga could be preceded by a word meaning "voice" as I already suggested. Or we could have a synonym for pattrabha"nga, the ornamental patterns ladies paint on their faces and chests. This would not conflict with aakalpa for those are ornaments put on. Or, if the Pali commentators are considered reliable vanabha"ngamight be taken as a synonym for pattracchedya, the art of making leaf-figures. An interesting discussion of such leaf-figures, under the name pattracchedya is given in B.rhatkathaa"slokasa.mgraha 9.2--7. Here "chedya" might indeed be a synonym for "bha"nga". This requires vana/vra.na to be derived from a Pkt. word meaning "leaf". S.D.Vasudeva From JFStaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Mar 13 19:55:31 2004 From: JFStaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Frits Staal) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 11:55:31 -0800 Subject: 17.703 a remarkable story (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074099.23782.6905374061787143620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Dominik: Am thrilled to read it as Gene Smith is one of my oldest friends! F. At 07:58 PM 3/13/04 +0530, you wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:09:26 +0000 >From: "Humanist Discussion Group (by way of Willard McCarty > )" >To: humanist at Princeton.EDU >Subject: 17.703 a remarkable story > > Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 17, No. 703. > Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London > www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/humanist/ > www.princeton.edu/humanist/ > Submit to: humanist at princeton.edu > > > > Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:05:33 +0000 > From: Willard McCarty > Subject: a remarkable story > >The most remarkable story of E. Gene Smith's preservation of Tibetan >literature is told in the latest Times Literary Supplement, no. 5267 for 12 >March 2004, in the Commentary column, p. 13. Smith, a Utah-born Mormon who >traces his lineage back to the brother of the prophet Joseph Smith, was >converted to Buddhism by a Tibetan scholar and lama Deshung Rinpoche on his >visit to the U.S. in 1960. Smith then began the studies necessary to read >and interpret the Tibetan canon (becoming in time perhaps the greatest >Western scholar of Tibetan literature). Sometime later the lama suggested >he go to India to locate and publish most important works of Tibetan >literature before they were lost forever. This became his life's work. He >eventually collected over 12,000 books of poetry, medicine, history, >biography and principally Buddhist religious texts, spanning 10 centuries >and comprising the largest collection in the West if not the world. Until >2001 this collection was housed in his 6-room duplex in Cambridge, >Massachusetts, the books covering every surface and floor in every room but >the kitchen; his bed was wedged between bookshelves. Then in 2001, after 40 >years of collecting, he found two angels, Shelley and Donald Rubin, who >have founded perhaps the largest museum of Himalayan art in the West and >have allotted ample space to Smith's Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center. > >Tibet is a land with an extraordinary scholarly tradition dating back to >the 7th century. Much of the literature exists only in the form of highly >perishable manuscripts and block-printed books, on strips of mulberry-husk >paper, bound together by straps of cloth. The centuries have taken their >toll; so also did the Chinese invasion. Without Smith's efforts much of not >all of what is now in safe hands would have been lost completely. Smith >estimates that scholars now have about 10% of what once existed, 80% of >what was well known. Little of this has been translated, so the culture >remains largely inaccessible to the West. Given the importance of this >literature not only in itself but for the transmission of Buddhism from >India through China to Japan, and from Japan to the West, much already of >great interest to many people is to be learned from this collection. > >The collection is going digital, at www.tbrc.org, where over 7,000 authors >and 20,000 book titles are already to be found. The ambition is to put all >of Tibetan literature online. > >The author of the article, Cynthia Haven, stresses the importance of online >publication for the rescuing and preservation of cultural treasures such as >the Tibetan canon. "If all that exists in Tibetan literature is online and >downloadable, it becomes virtually indestructible -- unlike the fragile, >ethereal tangkas that line the walls around Smith's offices, where >electronic reproduction can give only a whiff of the original." I hope she >is right about this virtual indestructibility. > >Comments? > >Yours, >WM > > [Note: If you do not receive a reply within 24 hours please >resend.] >Dr Willard McCarty | Senior Lecturer | Centre for Computing in the >Humanities | King's College London | Strand | London WC2R 2LS || +44 (0)20 >7848-2784 fax: -2980 || willard.mccarty at kcl.ac.uk >www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/ Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal/ From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Fri Mar 12 23:43:57 2004 From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 12:43:57 +1300 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: <000b01c4085e$3aa582d0$17674e51@zen> Message-ID: <161227074084.23782.1591993146188535925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 06:16:35PM +0000, Stephen Hodge wrote: [snip] > So here we are back in the realm of the overtly sexual (pun > unintended) ! I think Jonathan will eventually end up with a rather > long footnote for this phrase :) [rma 'byed pa] ... to add to the notes ;-) ... The "Sik.saasamuccaya has two distinct passages dealing with the vra.na-s in the sense mentioned by Edgerton, BHSD, p 520 (navavraNamukha). The first seems most relevant. i.) Sec. on preserving one's person (aatmabhaavarak.sa.na) Sub-sec. on the impurity (a"sucitva) of women's bodies "Ss 04 -- p 80 ln 14 udayanavatsaraajaparip.rcchaayaa.m ca vivar.nitaa.h kaamaa.h || d.r.s.tvaa vra.na.m [cf. rma mthong nas] dhaavati mak.sikaa yathaa | ^^^^^^^^ d.r.s.tvaa"suci.m dhaavati gardabho yathaa | "svaana"s ca "suunaa [46b] iva maa.msakaara.naat | tathaaiva dhaavanty abudhaa.h striye rataa.h || "Ss 04 -- p 82 ln 1 & p 82 ln 5 navavra.namukhai.h [cf. bu ga'i sgo ni dgu dag nas] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ prasravanty a"suci.m puutigandhikam | baalaa nimitta.m g.rh.nanti vacane dar"sane 'pi ca || uktaa.h pa"scaan na jaananti yo de"sa.h sarvakutsita.h | uccaaragocaraa baalaa.h khe.tasi"nghaa.nabhojina.h || jugupsaniiye rajyante vra.na.m d.r.s.tveva [cf. rma mthong ltar] mak.sikaa.h | ^^^^^^^^ kak.saasv aagharate svedo gandho vaayati kutsita.h || [snip] uccaareva durgandhaa.h striyo buddhai.h prakiirtitaa.h || tasmaad dhiinasya hiinaabhi.h striibhir bhavati sa"ngati.h | uccaarabhastraa.m yo g.rhyabaalaavaasa.m nigacchati || yaad.r"sa.m kurute karma taad.r"sa.m labhate phalam || ii.) Sec. on purifying one's person (aatmabhaava"sodhana) Sub-sec. on the four applications of mindfulness (sm.rtyupasthaana-s) Sub-sub-sec. on mindfulness of the body (kaaya) "Ss 13 -- p 230 ln 11 "Ss 13 -- p 231 ln 2 "Ss 13 -- p 232 ln 1 Best regards, Richard Mahoney -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sat Mar 13 17:42:43 2004 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S. Cousins) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 17:42:43 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about men? In-Reply-To: <20040313113549.98077.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227074095.23782.10150589882199233329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Looking further at the two Bandhanasuttas in the A'nguttaranikaaya (AN IV 196f.) on the eight ways in which a woman binds a man and the eight ways in which a man binds a woman, it seems to me that a little more can be said. The sequence is always the same in both cases but the list varies: Burmese sources: 1. ru.n.na 2. hasita 3. bha.nita 4. aakappa 5. vanabha'nga 6. gandha 7. rasa 8. phassa Sinhalese e.g. 1977 edition: 1. ruupa 2. hasita 3. bha.nita 4. giita 5. ru.n.na 6. aakappa 7. vanabha'nga 8. phassa The PTS edition is eclectic but the Mss it cites seem to correspond to the above. So we actually have two Pali lists. I do not doubt that if we had a critical edition using a wider range of Mss we would meet more variants. Clearly the same must have been true of the Sanskrit(-based) sources. No doubt we should expect such variations in a list which was probably well known to scribes in oral versions, both Prakrit and Sanskrit. Both versions are, I think, intended to approximate to an increasing level of intimacy. With the first four or six - tears, laughter, speech, dress - we have things heard or seen at a distance. With the last three of the Burmese list we have three of the objects of sense. The concluding sentence spells this out nicely: te hi bhikkhave satt? subaddh? {v.l. subandh?}, ye[va] phassena baddh?" ti {v.l. bandh? ti} 'those beings are thoroughly bound who are bound by contact'. (I ignore the variant of paasena for phassena taken by the PTS edition not from manuscript but from the nineteenth century Siamese edition.) In each case vanabha'nga is after the things seen and heard (at a distance) but before actual contact. This seems rather to support the interpretation of the Pali commentaries. It also seems to me that the list is rather deliberately gender neutral, as it would have to be for paired discourses of this kind. While all this suggests that the Pali version is quite old (i.e. pre-commentarial), it doesn't really address the meaning intended by the scribe(s) who wrote vra.na-. Lance Cousins From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Mar 13 19:44:38 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 19:44:38 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about women Message-ID: <161227074097.23782.13260188808413708846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have come across the following passage as, possibly, my final contribution to this stimulating collaborative discussion. It is from the Dhammapaada-atthakatha (4.195) dealing with the young monk Sundarasamudda's encounter with a courtesan. A translation, which clearly needs improving, is found in Burlinghame's 1920s version, "Legends of the Buddha" (PTS). The text seems to give a fairly exhaustive idea of "female wiles" we poor heterosexual males must guard against -- though here, evidently, dealing with a professional courtesan so the same range of skills might not have been expected in other women. As it includes in close proximity many of the items from the list of eight things that prompted this thread (naccena, giitena etc), although "vana-bha'ngena" is not mentioned specifically, I wonder whether one of the activities below might not be a synonym. Note also, that although these are the skills of a courtesan, there does not seem to be anything overtly or explicitly sexual as one might have expected -- all very demure so I wonder what the Buddhists of yore would have made of pole & lap dancers ! This again makes me think as I said before that our "vra.na-bha'nga" seems too explicit ain the context although Hartmut Buescher's msg is helpful here. Anyway, here's the passage: itthii purisa.m accaavadati vijambhati vinamati gilasati vilajjati nakhena nakha.m gha.t.teti, paadena paada? akkamati, ka.t.thena pathavi.m vilikhati, daaraka.m ulla`ngheti ola`ngheti, kii.lati kii.laapeti, cumbati cumbaapeti, bhu~njati bhu~njaapeti, dadaati aayaacati, katamanukaroti, ucca.m bhaasati, niica.m bhaasati, avicca? bhaasati, vivicca.m bhaasati, naccena giitena vaaditena roditena vilasitena vibhuusitena jagghati, pekkhati, ka.ti.m caaleti, guyhabha.n.daka.m caaleti, uuru.m vivarati, uuru.m pidahati, thana.m dasseti, kaccha.m dasseti, naabhi? dasseti, akkhi.m nikha.nati, bhamuka.m ukkhipati, o.t.tha? palikhati, jivha? nillaaleti, dussa.m mu~ncati, dussa.m bandhati, sirasa.m mu~ncati, sirasa.m bandhati Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 13 14:28:13 2004 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 19:58:13 +0530 Subject: 17.703 a remarkable story (fwd) Message-ID: <161227074093.23782.3589579416316295957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:09:26 +0000 From: "Humanist Discussion Group (by way of Willard McCarty )" To: humanist at Princeton.EDU Subject: 17.703 a remarkable story Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 17, No. 703. Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/humanist/ www.princeton.edu/humanist/ Submit to: humanist at princeton.edu Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:05:33 +0000 From: Willard McCarty Subject: a remarkable story The most remarkable story of E. Gene Smith's preservation of Tibetan literature is told in the latest Times Literary Supplement, no. 5267 for 12 March 2004, in the Commentary column, p. 13. Smith, a Utah-born Mormon who traces his lineage back to the brother of the prophet Joseph Smith, was converted to Buddhism by a Tibetan scholar and lama Deshung Rinpoche on his visit to the U.S. in 1960. Smith then began the studies necessary to read and interpret the Tibetan canon (becoming in time perhaps the greatest Western scholar of Tibetan literature). Sometime later the lama suggested he go to India to locate and publish most important works of Tibetan literature before they were lost forever. This became his life's work. He eventually collected over 12,000 books of poetry, medicine, history, biography and principally Buddhist religious texts, spanning 10 centuries and comprising the largest collection in the West if not the world. Until 2001 this collection was housed in his 6-room duplex in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the books covering every surface and floor in every room but the kitchen; his bed was wedged between bookshelves. Then in 2001, after 40 years of collecting, he found two angels, Shelley and Donald Rubin, who have founded perhaps the largest museum of Himalayan art in the West and have allotted ample space to Smith's Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center. Tibet is a land with an extraordinary scholarly tradition dating back to the 7th century. Much of the literature exists only in the form of highly perishable manuscripts and block-printed books, on strips of mulberry-husk paper, bound together by straps of cloth. The centuries have taken their toll; so also did the Chinese invasion. Without Smith's efforts much of not all of what is now in safe hands would have been lost completely. Smith estimates that scholars now have about 10% of what once existed, 80% of what was well known. Little of this has been translated, so the culture remains largely inaccessible to the West. Given the importance of this literature not only in itself but for the transmission of Buddhism from India through China to Japan, and from Japan to the West, much already of great interest to many people is to be learned from this collection. The collection is going digital, at www.tbrc.org, where over 7,000 authors and 20,000 book titles are already to be found. The ambition is to put all of Tibetan literature online. The author of the article, Cynthia Haven, stresses the importance of online publication for the rescuing and preservation of cultural treasures such as the Tibetan canon. "If all that exists in Tibetan literature is online and downloadable, it becomes virtually indestructible -- unlike the fragile, ethereal tangkas that line the walls around Smith's offices, where electronic reproduction can give only a whiff of the original." I hope she is right about this virtual indestructibility. Comments? Yours, WM [Note: If you do not receive a reply within 24 hours please resend.] Dr Willard McCarty | Senior Lecturer | Centre for Computing in the Humanities | King's College London | Strand | London WC2R 2LS || +44 (0)20 7848-2784 fax: -2980 || willard.mccarty at kcl.ac.uk www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Mar 13 21:23:31 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 04 21:23:31 +0000 Subject: stock phrase about women Message-ID: <161227074102.23782.12586747978266942173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> OK, just one more idea about the original meaning of "vana-bha'nga" -- does it have any connection with "patra-bha'nga, I wonder. This is mentioned a couple of times in the Kaama-suutra, although that brings up yet more problems since different translators have their own ideas about what *this* means. If, as per some of the Chinese parallels, we might be looking at "love-tokens" made from flowers, fruit etc, then there is also the charming custom of tearing leaves into little sexually suggestive shapes, also mentioned in the KS. Stephen Hodge4 From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Sun Mar 14 03:19:31 2004 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 04:19:31 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_stock_phrase_about_women=3F=C2=A0?= Message-ID: <161227074104.23782.16331781719662824038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: Hartmut Buescher wrote: > In spite of Stephen Hodge's noble ranking of possible interpretations -- > while this would, no doubt, be the preferable one should the correct > interpretation of vraNabhaGga depend on what appeals to us as the > most decent mode of behaviour No, you completely misunderstand me ! My suggested sequence of possible interpretations has nothing to do with my subjective views on decency (inter alia I have worked for years on tantric material) but is based on various possible lexical interpretations derived from Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan and Chinese. As has been suggested, there was a early Prakrit form X which seems to have given rise to two divergent meanings -- Pali and Chinese (in some cases) seem to approximate while Skt and Tib seem to concur at a literal level although the native Tibetan exegetical tradition has its own ideas about the precise connotation of the term. > the archaeological evidence, as suggested, may better not be lighthandedly > ignored, as it furnishes us with directly visible data of cultural codes of deportment > provided by the culture concerned itself. Yes, I said previously that this input of yours is extremely useful in conjunction with lexical considerations -- though not definitive in terms of what the original Prakrit form X might have meant. I assume that the artistic tradition which has these interesting erotic depictions arose centuries after the original meaning of the term X had become confused and thus it may only suggest one possible, albeit reasonable, interpretation of the word as it went through various linguistic permutations. > Therefore, we are not BACK "in the realm of the overtly sexual" and there is > not "a rather sudden 'gear-change' " from which, Stephen, we have to shrink > back -- all the eight sthAnas are directly related to sex (kAma). Again, I have no intrinsic objection to a overtly sexual or highly erotic interpretation, so this comment is rather unfair, and I agree that the series of eight items are indeed related to sexual seduction, though I still feel that they are not overtly sexual as a group but more general -- the quote I have supplied from the Dhammapada-atthakatha seems similar, as it undoubtedly revolves around sexual seduction but is not very overt to my mind [but then again, I'm Libra not Scorpio :) ] Having said this, once again, Hartmut, we should be grateful for bringing attention to the artistic tradition. I am sure Jonathan will now be writing an enormous footnote and thank us all for the wealth of suggestions this thread has generated. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Sun Mar 14 18:16:13 2004 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 10:16:13 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074122.23782.1571456198623240952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Without claiming for it any authenticity, I cite the reconstruction of the Mahaaayaanasamgraha passage referred to by HB offered by Nagao in his Shodaijoron (the reconstruction itself due to Aramaki Noritoshi): aaliina.m sarvadharme.su vijnaana.m sarvabiijakam / By the way, although zeugma is of course well known, I am somehow under the impression that the (?) term for one in medial position is mezzo-zeugma. Also entirely by the way, I am (was/will get back to) working on a study of precisely the opening stock phrase referred to once again by HB, evam mayaa zrutam ekasmin samaye, most particularly focussing on how commentaries have understood it, which proves to be most interesting. -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Mar 14 17:04:20 2004 From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 11:04:20 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:______________Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Sanskrit_syntax_problem:_Double_bind_constructions?= In-Reply-To: <90.439e5277.2d85e5d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227074117.23782.6901714303201518165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But in fact this is not a very good example of the phenomenon. sarvadharmANAm clearly is more closely connected to AlayaH here. Matthew Kapstein On Sun, 14 Mar 2004, Somadeva Vasudeva wrote: > In a message dated 14/3/04 4:03:40 pm, buescher at HUM.KU.DK writes: > > > > *sarvabIjakaM vijJAnaM sarvadharmANAm AlayaH // > > whereby sarvadharmANAm would also semantically be closely related to both > > the preceding and the subsequent elements. > > > > You mean a zeugma? In Skt. this is called a diipaka and listed already in the > Naa.tya"saastra as an ala"nkaara. > > > SD.Vasudeva > From Somadevah at AOL.COM Sun Mar 14 16:44:00 2004 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 11:44:00 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Sanskrit_syntax_problem:_Double_bind_constructions?= Message-ID: <161227074114.23782.14107015351185715320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 14/3/04 4:03:40 pm, buescher at HUM.KU.DK writes: > *sarvabIjakaM vijJAnaM sarvadharmANAm AlayaH // > whereby sarvadharmANAm would also semantically be closely related to both > the preceding and the subsequent elements. > You mean a zeugma? In Skt. this is called a diipaka and listed already in the Naa.tya"saastra as an ala"nkaara. SD.Vasudeva From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Sun Mar 14 19:55:21 2004 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 11:55:21 -0800 Subject: vajraagni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074125.23782.10420613564105621217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding varjaagni, Arlo Griffiths added to the MBh reference of Arthur Karp: >Divyaavadaana (ed. Vaidya) >269.027. na ;sastravajraagnivi.saa.ni pannagaa.h kurvanti pii.daa.m nabhaso >'vikaari.na.h/ This reading is the same as that in Cowell & Neil 416.20 = Mukhopadhyaya 121.3, and in fact the same verse is found in Azokaavadaanamaalaa published by Bongard-Levin vs. 261. Unfortunately, although much of the text is repeated verbatim, this verse is omitted by the K.semendra's Bodhisattvaavadaanakalpalataa, and hence we have no opportunity to see any Tibetan rendering here. In the Tibetan Ku.naalaavadaana, however, Toh. 4145 'dul ba su 237b2 we have: mtshon dang rdo rje dug dang sbrul rnams kyis // nam mkha' 'gyun zhing gnod byed mi nus so // . Here mtshon = zastra, rdo rje = varja(agni) and dug = vi.sa. What is peculiar about this is that the translators appear to have skipped agni, unless they consider the compound identical in meaning with varja alone. On the other hand, a Chinese version preserved in T. 2042 (L) 109c23-24 (juan 3) quite clearly understands varja and agni, as two entirely distinct items (for convenience, trans Przyluski: 292: ...c'est ne'st non plus la foudre ni le feu...). This, for what it is worth, is also how Hertel (Parizi.s.taparvan 263: Nicht Waffen, Blitze, Feurer, Gift...) understood the line (from Skt, of course). While it seems rather clear that the sense of varjaagni in the MBh context, as in the Ratnagotravibhaaga from which I originally cited it, means 'lightning," I wonder whether we may conclude that there is at least a good possibility that in the Divy it is to be taken rather as a dvandva (and in that sense, not the same word at all). JAS -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Sun Mar 14 22:10:30 2004 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 14:10:30 -0800 Subject: misprint Message-ID: <161227074128.23782.4345317950651867935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my citation of In the Tibetan Ku.naalaavadaana, Toh. 4145 'dul ba su 237b2: mtshon dang rdo rje dug dang sbrul rnams kyis // nam mkha' 'gyun zhing gnod byed mi nus so // , of course 'gyun is a mistype for 'gyur. Sorry. -- Jonathan Silk Department of Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Mar 14 15:32:42 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 15:32:42 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_stock_phrase_about_women=3F=C2=A0?= Message-ID: <161227074109.23782.3964818989779964409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm reposting this since it seems to have got lost in the ether. ******* Just one more idea about the original meaning of "vana-bha'nga" -- does it have any connection with "patra-bha'nga, I wonder. This is mentioned a couple of times in the Kaama-suutra, although that brings up yet more problems since different translators have their own ideas about what *this* means. If, as per some of the Chinese parallels, we might be looking at "love-tokens" made from flowers, fruit etc, then there is also the charming custom of tearing leaves into little sexually suggestive shapes, also mentioned in the KS. Stephen Hodge From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Sun Mar 14 15:53:34 2004 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 16:53:34 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions Message-ID: <161227074112.23782.5321371043926347191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear VyAkaraNa-savants, now and then we meet with ambivalent syntactic constructions in Sanskrit, that is, with cases where a particular part of a sentence -- say, a genitive construction -- is strategically placed so as to be connected to both the preceding and the subsequent elements with equal strength in terms of semantic possibilities. Recently I saw that, for example, Jan E. Houben (in: The saMbandha-samuddeza [Chapter on Relation] and BhartRhari's Philosophy of Language, Groningen 1995: 6 n. 8) shortly referred to this phenomenon. In the context of Buddhist studies it has been the phrase "ekasmin samaye" in the opening formular of sUtras ("Thus I have heard [: ?] once [: ?] the Buddha was staying .....") that has triggered a fairly large scholarship providing interpretations, references to which have been conveniently collected by Daniel Boucher (on p. 90 n. 1 of the contribution "The NagaropamasUtra .... " in: Sanskrit Texte aus dem buddhistischen Kanon: Neuentdeckungen und Neueditionen, Dritte Folge, G?ttingen 1996). With particular reference to Paul Harrison, Boucher's solution is to take "ekasmin samaye" as what I am here designating as "double bind construction" (being unaware of any existing technical terms to designate this phenomenon). The problem becomes more complex when we have to try to reconstruct the original Sanskrit wording of a philosophically significant passage, e.g., from the Tibetan. It is -- just to come up with an example without wishing to discuss the passage itself -- rather problematic, when Lamotte reconstructs the Sanskrit original of the term kun gzhi as a verb ["g?te (Aliiyate)"] in the MahAyAnasaMgraha I.2 passage chos kun sa bon thams cad pa'i / rnam par shes pa kun gzhi ste //, because Aliiyate has regularly (though, admittedly, not always) been translated by sbyor ba (just as in the immediately subsequent passage MSg I.3). On the basis of contextually related passages, I regard it as quite probable that the original Sanskrit read: *sarvabIjakaM vijJAnaM sarvadharmANAm AlayaH // whereby sarvadharmANAm would also semantically be closely related to both the preceding and the subsequent elements. Now, in view of such problems I would like to become more familiar with this type of double bind constructions in Sanskrit. The title of Prof. Deshpande's book "Ellipsis and Syntactic Overlapping ... " sounded attractive, but I had to realise that it was not pertinent to the present concern. The Speijer centennial volume "Studies in Sanskrit Syntax", ed. by H. H. Hock contains a long bibliography; yet, from the listed titles themselves I could not immediately spot those that might eventually help further. I am interested in all sorts of references drawing attention to instances of double bind constructions either in connection with more or less extended theoretical reflections, or just in form of (foot-)notes merely saying: "here occurs this phenomenon; I deal with it in such a way". For any pertinent information I would be grateful. Best regards, Hartmut Buescher From ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 15 04:11:07 2004 From: ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Lawrence McCrea) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 04 22:11:07 -0600 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: <5FA95E40EE2AD51190380090272724BB02737973@humxsrv1.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227074134.23782.12323083725272177147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Buescher, I can't point you to any secondary literature on this phenomenon, but it is quite common and well-known within the tradition. The principle that allows terms to construe backwards and forwards at the same time is generally referred to as the "si.mha-avalokana-nyaya"-- "the rule of the lion's glance". Lions are said, either when pursuing prey or fleeing a hunter (I've seen it explained both ways), to periodically leap into the air and cast a quick glance backwards to see what's behind them, and this provides an analogy for the grammatical phenomenon. There are brief entries on it in Apte, Monier-Williams, and MacDonell, but none cites any passages. MW, in his typically frustrating manner, says that it's found in commentaries on Mahabharata, 'Saankhaayana Braahma.na, and Taittiriya Prati'saakhya, but declines to cite passages. A couple of references are given in Miimaa.msaako.sa. You might also want to look at Abhyankar's _Dictionary of Sanskrit Grammar_. Hope this is helpful to you. Yours, Larry McCrea Lecturer, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University Quoting Hartmut Buescher : > Dear VyAkaraNa-savants, > > now and then we meet with ambivalent syntactic constructions in Sanskrit, > that is, with cases where a particular part of a sentence -- say, a > genitive > construction -- is strategically placed so as to be connected to both the > preceding and the subsequent elements with equal strength in terms of > semantic possibilities. > Recently I saw that, for example, Jan E. Houben (in: The > saMbandha-samuddeza > [Chapter on Relation] and BhartRhari's Philosophy of Language, Groningen > 1995: 6 n. 8) shortly referred to this phenomenon. > > In the context of Buddhist studies it has been the phrase "ekasmin samaye" > in the opening formular of sUtras ("Thus I have heard [: ?] once [: ?] the > Buddha was staying .....") that has triggered a fairly large scholarship > providing interpretations, references to which have been conveniently > collected by Daniel Boucher (on p. 90 n. 1 of the contribution "The > NagaropamasUtra .... " in: Sanskrit Texte aus dem buddhistischen Kanon: > Neuentdeckungen und Neueditionen, Dritte Folge, G?ttingen 1996). With > particular reference to Paul Harrison, Boucher's solution is to take > "ekasmin samaye" as what I am here designating as "double bind > construction" > (being unaware of any existing technical terms to designate this > phenomenon). > > The problem becomes more complex when we have to try to reconstruct the > original Sanskrit wording of a philosophically significant passage, e.g., > from the Tibetan. > It is -- just to come up with an example without wishing to discuss the > passage itself -- rather problematic, when Lamotte reconstructs the > Sanskrit > original of the term kun gzhi as a verb ["g?te (Aliiyate)"] in the > MahAyAnasaMgraha I.2 passage > chos kun sa bon thams cad pa'i / rnam par shes pa kun gzhi ste //, > because Aliiyate has regularly (though, admittedly, not always) been > translated by sbyor ba (just as in the immediately subsequent passage MSg > I.3). > On the basis of contextually related passages, I regard it as quite > probable > that the original Sanskrit read: > *sarvabIjakaM vijJAnaM sarvadharmANAm AlayaH // > whereby sarvadharmANAm would also semantically be closely related to both > the preceding and the subsequent elements. > > Now, in view of such problems I would like to become more familiar with > this > type of double bind constructions in Sanskrit. The title of Prof. > Deshpande's book "Ellipsis and Syntactic Overlapping ... " sounded > attractive, but I had to realise that it was not pertinent to the present > concern. The Speijer centennial volume "Studies in Sanskrit Syntax", ed. by > H. H. Hock contains a long bibliography; yet, from the listed titles > themselves I could not immediately spot those that might eventually help > further. > > I am interested in all sorts of references drawing attention to instances > of > double bind constructions either in connection with more or less extended > theoretical reflections, or just in form of (foot-)notes merely saying: > "here occurs this phenomenon; I deal with it in such a way". > > For any pertinent information I would be grateful. > > Best regards, > > Hartmut Buescher > From harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 15 07:12:57 2004 From: harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 02:12:57 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: <1079323866.40552cdb024e2@webmail.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227074139.23782.3589452376247595094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quoting Lawrence McCrea : > I can't point you to any secondary literature on this phenomenon, but it > > is quite common and well-known within the tradition. The principle that > allows > terms to construe backwards and forwards at the same time is generally > referred > to as the "si.mha-avalokana-nyaya"-- "the rule of the lion's glance". A very minor comment indeed: in my experience at least this indeed commonly invoked principle is generally referred to in primary sources (I have seen it in "saastric literature of various kinds, including Nyaaya and Vyaakara.na, kaavya-commentaries, tantra-commentaries etc.) as si.mhaavalokitanyaaya rather than as si.mhaavalokananyaaya. Harunaga Isaacson -- Harunaga Isaacson Temporary departmental address (during the academic year 2003--2004): South Asia Studies University of Pennsylvania 3600 Market Street, Suite 501B Philadelphia, PA 19104-2653 USA tel. +1 215 898 6047 From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Mar 15 08:05:11 2004 From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 10:05:11 +0200 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: <1079323866.40552cdb024e2@webmail.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227074142.23782.15806870091039440265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > MW, in his typically frustrating > manner, says that it's found in commentaries on Mahabharata, 'Saankhaayana > Braahma.na, and Taittiriya Prati'saakhya, but declines to cite passages. As usual, MW's source is PW. I quote from vol. VII, col. 976f.: si.mhaavalokita n. des L?wen Art und Weise zu blicken: mugdhabaala? adj. Bhaag. P. 3,2,28 instr. ?nena und ?nyaayena so, dass man bald vorw?rts, bald r?ckw?rts schaut, d. i. bald weiter greift, bald auf etwas Abgemachtes wieder zur?ckkommt Comm. zu TS. Praat. 2,51. 4,4. 13,3.15 zu ;Saa:nkh. Br. 13,6. 9. 16,1. Niilak. zu MBh. 3,14176. Accessible to me right now is only Whitney's ed. [New Haven 1868/reprint MLBD 1973] of the Taittiriiyapraati;saakhya. There I indeed find the word si.mhaavalokitanyaaya- in the commentary (given in footnotes) on 2.51, 4.4, 13.3, and 13.15. The comm. on the ;Saa:nkhaayana = Kau.siitaki Braahma.na for which no published source is quoted in vol. I of PW (p. IX), may be Udaya's Vyaakhyaa edithed by E.R. Sreekrishna Sarma, Wiesbaden 1976. -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5274128 From conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Mar 15 18:22:23 2004 From: conlon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Frank Conlon) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 10:22:23 -0800 Subject: 17.703 a remarkable story (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074144.23782.897739993952241819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues: I have lost the most recent e-mail address for Gene Smith. May I ask that someone post it either to the list or to me privately (at conlon at u.washington.edu). Thank you. Frank Frank F. Conlon Professor Emeritus University of Washington Co-editor, H-ASIA Managing Director, Bibliography of Asian Studies Online From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 15 19:52:27 2004 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: Re. Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: <5FA95E40EE2AD51190380090272724BB02737977@humxsrv1.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227074152.23782.16452699359399648428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Thieme also used the kaakaaksi-term (classes, c. 1966/7), which he presumably got from HIS teachers at Allahabad (1935-7) (such as the Paniniya Kamalakanta MIsra) MW On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Hartmut Buescher wrote: ========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, (Harvard Oriental Ser., Opera Minora) Harvard University www.shore.net/~india/ejvs 1 Bow Street (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Mon Mar 15 05:02:25 2004 From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 18:02:25 +1300 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: <1079323866.40552cdb024e2@webmail.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227074136.23782.10842393196899139630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, Mar 14, 2004 at 10:11:07PM -0600, Lawrence McCrea wrote: [snip] > > now and then we meet with ambivalent syntactic constructions in > > Sanskrit, that is, with cases where a particular part of a > > sentence -- say, a genitive construction -- is strategically > > placed so as to be connected to both the preceding and the > > subsequent elements with equal strength in terms of semantic > > possibilities. [snip] > The principle that allows terms to construe backwards and forwards > at the same time is generally referred to as the > "si.mha-avalokana-nyaya"-- "the rule of the lion's glance". Lions > are said, either when pursuing prey or fleeing a hunter (I've seen > it explained both ways), to periodically leap into the air and cast > a quick glance backwards to see what's behind them, and this > provides an analogy for the grammatical phenomenon. There are brief > entries on it in Apte, Monier-Williams, and MacDonell, but none > cites any passages. [snip] from "Sik.saasamuccaya p. 357 lns. 13--14 (Bendall's ed): sadaa 'pramaado [or sadaapramaado] hy am.rtasya muula.m satvaarthayu- <--- ^^^^^^^ ---> [ Cambridge MS f163b ---> ] ktasya ca bodhicitta.m | yad yoni"sa"s caiva vivekacittam aparigraha.h sarvasukhasya muulam iti || Best regards, Richard Mahoney -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Mon Mar 15 19:20:36 2004 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 20:20:36 +0100 Subject: Re. Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions Message-ID: <161227074146.23782.17593519367716396143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Aklujkar has sent me an important addition to the present discussion off-list. With his permission, it is now being shared with the list (note, however, that he sent his mail early in the morning [i.e., before he saw the other sugestions of Skt. names referring to double bind constructions]; it was me who returned late). HB Dear Mr. Buescher, In the following publication (a) to which Jan Houben refers in his footnote to which you refer and (b) to which you yourself later allude indirectly, you will notice that I have given the name "dehalii-diipa use of the genitive" to the grammatical phenomenon of double bind construction. >The Speijer centennial volume "Studies in Sanskrit Syntax", ed. by H. H. Hock. My article "Syntactic Gleanings ..." p. 4. or section 2.4.< Recently, Prof. Albrecht Wezler observed in a seminar at Kyoto in which we both participate that one could speak of the phenomenon also as kaakaak.si-golaka use. Subsequent to 1991, I have collected examples of cases other than the genitive similarly used. The sentence you have cited, however, will not do as a suitable example as others have pointed out. Nor should one confuse the phenomenon with the trope or figure of speech called diipaka. You may post this note on the Indology list if you wish. Unfortunately, I am unlikely to find the time needed to participate in further discussion. With best wishes. ashok aklujkar Scholar-in-residence at Kyoto University until end of March 2004 ? From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Mar 15 19:35:01 2004 From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 04 21:35:01 +0200 Subject: Re. Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions In-Reply-To: <5FA95E40EE2AD51190380090272724BB02737977@humxsrv1.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227074149.23782.12402095283717808508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The dehalii-diipa- or kaakaak.si-golaka-nyaaya came up in a recent discussion between myself and Werner Knobl. He provided me with the following references: Laukika-nyaayaanjali.h . A Handful of Popular Maxims Current in Sanskrit Literature. Parts I, II & III, Collected by Colonel G. A. Jacob: I 18 for kaakaak.si-golaka-nyaaya.h and I 30 for dehalii-diipa-nyaaya.h. Apte's Appendix E (pp. 52-76): kaakaak.si-golaka- 58b, dehalii-diipa- 62b-63a. A Vedic example seems to be the following Kuntaapa mantra, very corruptly transmitted especially as regards accentuation: AV ;Saunaka-Sa.mhitaa 20.135.12 (;Saa:nkh;SS 12.16.5, .RVKh 5.21.2) tv;am indra kap;otaaya +chinnapak.s;aaya v;a;ncate | +;sy;aamaaka.m pakv;a.m +p;iilu ca v;aar asmaa +ak.r.nor +bah;u || 'You, o Indra, provided for the staggering pigeon whose wings were clipped much ripe millet [cf. Bhaar;SS 6.18.1 ;syaamaake.su pakve.su] and p;iilu-fruit, [and your provided] water for it.' pakv;am here qualifies both the preceding and the following substantive nouns. Arlo Griffiths > From: Hartmut Buescher > Reply-To: Indology > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:20:36 +0100 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re. Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions > > Prof. Aklujkar has sent me an important addition to the present discussion > off-list. With his permission, it is now being shared with the list (note, > however, that he sent his mail early in the morning [i.e., before he saw the > other sugestions of Skt. names referring to double bind constructions]; it > was me who returned late). HB > > > Dear Mr. Buescher, > > In the following publication (a) to which Jan Houben refers in his footnote > to which you refer and (b) to which you yourself later allude indirectly, > you will notice that I have given the name "dehalii-diipa use of the > genitive" to the grammatical phenomenon of double bind construction. > >> The Speijer centennial volume "Studies in Sanskrit Syntax", ed. by H. H. > Hock. > My article "Syntactic Gleanings ..." p. 4. or section 2.4.< > > Recently, Prof. Albrecht Wezler observed in a seminar at Kyoto in which we > both participate that one could speak of the phenomenon also as > kaakaak.si-golaka use. > > Subsequent to 1991, I have collected examples of cases other than the > genitive similarly used. > > The sentence you have cited, however, will not do as a suitable example as > others have pointed out. Nor should one confuse the phenomenon with the > trope or figure of speech called diipaka. > > You may post this note on the Indology list if you wish. Unfortunately, I am > > unlikely to find the time needed to participate in further discussion. > > With best wishes. > > ashok aklujkar > Scholar-in-residence at Kyoto University until end of March 2004 > ? From H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Mar 16 13:06:46 2004 From: H.J.H.Tieken at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 04 14:06:46 +0100 Subject: Vacancy: Chair of Sanskrit at Leiden University Message-ID: <161227074154.23782.227022226216360687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Within the next two weeks, the following position will be advertised in Dutch and international newspapers. LEIDEN UNIVERSITY FACULTY OF ARTS CHAIR OF SANSKRIT Professor in the field of Sanskrit (1.0) This professorship covers the entire breadth of the field of Sanskrit. The candidate?s area of specialisation must fall within this field, and he or she must have a research record that reflects a broad cultural-historical approach and an international orientation. This chair is pivotal within the Department of Indology (TCZCA) Vacancy number 4-050. The appointment involves the following: - teaching in the field Sanskrit in all of its varieties; - conducting research in the field of the chair; - initiating, stimulating and supervising doctorate research; - sharing in the administration of the Department of Indology, the School of Asian, African and Amerindian Studies CNWS, the Faculty of Arts, as well as other organisations relevant to the field of the chair and to the department. - carrying the responsibility for the Department of Indology as long as other chairs within the department are vacant; - promoting the interests of the field of the professorship and the department, in the Netherlands as well as abroad. The successful candidate will hold a doctorate and possess: - sound knowledge of Sanskrit and familiarity with the various genres of the literature of this language. The successful candidate is specialised in an area that falls within the broad field of Sanskrit. Good knowledge of Vedic will be considered advantageous; - sound knowledge of the culture, both present and past, of the Indian subcontinent. A good knowledge a modern Indian language will be considered advantageous; - an excellent research track record in the field of the professorship, reflected in a substantial list of field-related publications with renowned publishers or in leading journals. The successful candidate?s work reflects a strongly international orientation; - excellent teaching skills as well as considerable experience in academic teaching in various formats; - Proven administrative and management skills, and a willingness to take an active part in administrative and managerial tasks within the department, the relevant research institutes and the Faculty of Arts; If the candidate is not a native speaker of Dutch, he or she will be expected to become competent in Dutch within two years. The application procedure will include a trial lecture and an assessment of the candidate?s managerial skills. Applicants, as well as those who wish to bring candidates to the attention of the appointments committee, should apply in writing to the Dean of the Faculty of Arts at the following address within four weeks from the publication of this advertisement: Professor T. van Haaften c/o Faculty of Arts P.O. Box 9515 2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands The application should contain a curriculum vitae, a list of publications and a plan for future research. Potential candidates can obtain further information on this position from the Faculty of Arts Office, which can be reached at +31 (0)71 - 527 23 18 or via e-mail: m.l.p.remmerswaal at let.leidenuniv.nl. This information can also be accessed at www.leidenuniv.nl/let/faculteit/index.html, under the heading Hoogleraarsvacatures. Further information regarding this chair can be obtained from the Dean of the Faculty; he can be reached at the telephone number above. The University of Leiden wishes to employ more women, and therefore particularly encourages women to apply. From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 17 10:13:49 2004 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (jagan nadh) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 04 10:13:49 +0000 Subject: Nalabhudaya Message-ID: <161227074157.23782.8359886562085784001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegues Any body can give me a list of woks done in the Nalabhudaya of Vamanabhattabana.(ie-Mpil,.P.H.D works ,Books etc..other recent works) Jaganadh.G/Dept.of Sanskrit/University of Kerala/India _________________________________________________________________ Get head-hunted by 10,000 recruiters. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/44798.asp Post your CV on naukri.com today. From navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 17 10:25:37 2004 From: navadipanyaya at HOTMAIL.COM (jagan nadh) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 04 10:25:37 +0000 Subject: Nalabhyudaya Message-ID: <161227074160.23782.14742983113691491928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegues Any body can give me a list of works done in Nalabhyudaya of VAmanabhattabana.(Ie Mphil.P.h.D woks etc.. other recent works Jaganadh.G/Dept of Sanskrit /Univerity of Kerala /India _________________________________________________________________ Join BharatMatrimony.com. http://www.bharatmatrimony.com/cgi-bin/bmclicks1.cgi?72 Unmarried? Join Free. From drdj at UMICH.EDU Wed Mar 17 16:15:55 2004 From: drdj at UMICH.EDU (Donald R. Davis, Jr.) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 04 11:15:55 -0500 Subject: Verse attributed to Kalidasa Message-ID: <161227074163.23782.1018495155067998920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though another scholar asked this question on the RISA list some time ago, no response came forth. I am asking it again here at a student's prompting. The student is interested in a Sanskrit version of an English verse usually titled "Salutation to the Dawn" and attributed to Kalidasa. The only information I was able to find is that "Salutation of the Dawn" is mentioned in Harvey Cushing's The Life of Sir William Osler (London: Oxford University Press; 1940): 1041, indicating the poem was inscribed in a copy of Osler's 1913 Silliman Foundation address, with his note indicating he didn't know who wrote it. Cushing, in a footnote, comments: "Said to be from the Sanskrit, the poem was published, as an inserted frontispiece, in 'Words in Pain', Lond., G.M. Bishop, 1919." One of several versions I have found reads: Look to this day! For it is life, the very life of life. For yesterday is but a dream And tomorrow is only a vision But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness And tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore, to this day! Such is the salutation of the dawn. Can anyone provide a Sanskrit original for this verse and/or confirm its origins in Kalidasa or Sanskrit literature generally? Thanks for any leads, Don Davis Dept of Asian Languages & Cultures University of Michigan From buescher at HUM.KU.DK Wed Mar 17 16:40:29 2004 From: buescher at HUM.KU.DK (Hartmut Buescher) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 04 17:40:29 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit syntax problem: Double bind constructions Message-ID: <161227074166.23782.17043400002283652214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With many thanks to both Ashok Aklujkar and Harunaga Isaacson, I am forwarding the following exchange to the list. HB Dear Mr. Buescher, At Prof. Aklujkar's suggestion, I forward you the following e-mail he wrote, which may if it seems fitting to you be posted/forwarded further to INDOLOGY. With best wishes, Harunaga Isaacson [clip] Dear Haru, I think the following will serve to clarify the issues further. If you agree, pl forward the following text to . Thanks and best wishes. ashok Dear Mr. Buescher, The following additional observations were made in two off-line exchanges between Prof. Harunaga Isaacson and myself. With HI's agreement, I suggest that you should post them on the? Indology list in the interest of clarifying the issues further. AA: Could you cite some passages where si.mhaavalokita-nyaaya or simhaavalokana-nyaaya is actually used for a simultaneous two-way (backward and forward) connection rather than for a connection only with what precedes? Also, does such a backward connection always deal with syntax (especially with an immediately preceding word), not content? The reason [behind my asking these questions] is that if the si.mhaavalokita-nyaaya matches the double bind (syntactic) construction phenomenon exactly, I need not use the Skt name I suggested in 1991. AA: Incidentally, according to Miimaa.msaa-ko;sa vol 7, p. 4324. lokana is the form in Bhuvane;sa-nyaaya-saahasrii and lokita in Bhaa.?.?a-cintaa-ma.ni. HI: No doubt the si.mhaavalokita-/simhaavalokana-nyaaya should be studied more carefully. We can distinguish between different usages of it, I think. Here is however an instance where it appears to be explicitly used in a case of syntactic connection with both what precedes and what follows: in an attempt to avoid the first of 3 do.sas which some have found in Kiraataarjuniiya 1.1 (the three are that there is no nominative referring to the agent of ayu"nkta in b, that vidita in c is apparently active (kartari) not passive (karma.ni), and that there is punarukti in the expression dvaitavane vane in d), the learned and ingenious commentator Vidyaamaadhava [around 1200 AD according to PK Gode] writes i.a.: uttaraardhaadau sthita.m sa iti pada.m si.mhaavalokitanyaayenordhvam adha"s ca sambadhyate. HI: By the way, the expression dehaliidiipanyaaya is used by Hariva.m"sa"sarma (a commentator on the Suurya"sataka) to describe the connection of vaasarasya with both the preceding praarambhe and the following vyuparatisamaye in Suurya"sataka 3. HI: kaakaak.sinyaaya or kaakaak.sivat (or, though I believe less commonly attested, kaakaak.sigolakanyaaya) are also expressions that should be taken into consideration, certainly. AA: The Kiraataarjuniiya 1.1 instance is indeed syntactic. The only difference from the situation I addressed is that veditum intervenes in the puurvaardha connection of sa.h with ayu:nkta and var.ni-li:ngii vidita.h intervene in the uttaraardha connection of samaayayau. AA: Glad to find that someone (long ago?) thought along the same lines as I did. The greater appropriateness in using the dehaliidiipanyaaya is that it captures the feature of there being only one divider (dehalii) or only one item at the juncture of two words and the feature that this intruder relates to or illumines (diipa) both the words simultaneously. HI: I agree with you that dehaliidiipa is in some respects a more appropriate expression. a.a From Somadevah at AOL.COM Thu Mar 18 00:45:43 2004 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 04 19:45:43 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Sanskrit_syntax_problem:_Double_bind_constructions?= Message-ID: <161227074169.23782.13999033100914018749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Hartmut Buescher, You are quite right, using rhetorical terminology in prosaic examples is not called for (nor all that easy if it is genitives (=non-kaarakas) that are your samples). If your examples are poetry and contain a single expression that needs to be read repeatedly without changing its meaning, then quite commonly this is a diipaka (KP 10.103: sak.rdv.rttis tu dharmasya...): for example: kiva.naa.nah dha.na.m .naaaa.na.m pha.nama.nii ke"saraa~i siihaa.na.m/ kulabaaliaa.na.m ttha.naaa kutto chippanti amuaa.na.m// ?The wealth of misers, the hood-jewels of serpents, the manes of lions, the breasts of [fem.] well-keepers, how can these be touched while not dead.? Lit. ?of them not dead?. The pass. verb and the gen. amuaa.na.m must be construed with all of these objects (the main one (prak.rta) being of course ttha.naaa). If it is not a diipaka then (perhaps second most frequent) it might be a tulyayogitaa, where no emphasis is placed on the prak.rta and aprak.rta status of the objects. In fact Da.n.din labels verses as containing diipaka which later rhetoricians would identify as tulyayogitaa. Da.n.din?s classification of diipakas is very simple (2.97: jaatikriyaagu.nadravyavaacinaikatra vartinaa sarvavaakyopakaara"s cet tam aahur diipaka.m yathaa) the only criterion is what class of word is read repeatedly. This seems to me so vague that it might even be possible to include the genitive double-bind examples, though I have no example to show this was ever done (anyway they hardly constitute poetry). As for the si.mhaavalokitanyaaya I have little to add except that I could send you some more references if this interests you. Just two points. 1) In his article Prof. Aklujkar has suggested that these genitive double-bind constructions are ?a kind of "sle.sa?". However, in a "sle.sa we need to have two distinct meanings when a word is read twice. This is not the case in the examples cited: sa eva hi kalau "saktivaikalyaan n.R.naa.m pravibhaktaa"ngo d.r"syate. Here n.R.naam means the same in both cases, if there is a nuance of difference it is far too slight to be considered even an artha"sle.sa, where only a minor shift in meaning is expected. 2) As regards the appropriateness of using the dehaliidiipanyaaya rather than the si.mhaavalokitanyaaya it should be noted that this nyaaya is also used in a related but different way. This might prove confusing. For instance, in the Kaarikaavalii comms. it is used in an example to remove a doubt as to the meaning of the word yava by reading the remainder of the sentence. Should it mean diirgha"suuka-grains or ka"ngu-grains (whatever these are?): Kaarikaavalii "sabdakha.n.da 4 (81): yathaa yavamaya"s carur bhavatiity atra yavapadasya diirgha"suukavi"se.se aaryaa.naa.m prayoga.h ka"ngau tu mlecchaanaam / tatra hi ``athaanyaa o.sadhayo mlaayante .athaite modamaanaas ti.s.thanti / vasante sarvasasyaanaa.m jaayate patra"saatanam / modamaanaa"s ca ti.s.thanti yavaa.h ka.ni.h"saalina iti?? vaakya"se.saad diirgha"suuke "saktir nir.niiyate ka"ngau tu "saktibhramaat prayoga.h / Dinakarii ad loc (2.4): yavapadasyety asya dehaliidiipanyaayenaanvaya.h / tatra hi taad.r"sadvividhavyavahaare, ka"ngau diirgha"suuke vaa yavapadasya "saktir iti sandehe sati yavapadasya iti vaakya"se.saad diirgha"suuke "saktir nir.niiyate ityanvaya.h / Raamarudrii 1(7): yavapadasyety asyeti / dehaliidiipeti / dehaliistho diipo bhavanaantarbahisthavi"svavastuprakaa"sakatvena sa.mbadhnaati tathokta.sa.s.thyantapadam api puurvatana"saktigrahe uttaratra prayoge caanvetiityartha.h / The Raamarudrii commentary, by the way gives a nice definition of the si.mhaavalokita- and ma.n.duukapluti-nyaayas. Raamarudrii 1(8): si.mhaavalokitetyaadi / si.mhas tu svag.rhaan nirgatya duura.m gatvaa puna.h paraav.rtya svag.rha.m pa"syati tadvad uttaratra ke.su cid vaakye.su puurvatanapadasyaanvayo naasti kvacid uttaravaakye puurvatanapadasyaanvaya.h saa si.mhaavalokanaa / uttaravaakye.su ekatra puurvapadasyaanvaya.h ekatra naanvaya.h punar vaakyaantare ca tadanvayas tatra ma.n.duukapluti.h / uttaravaakye.su krame.na sarvatra puurvapadaanvayo ga"ngaasrota iti vibhaagau bodhya.h / best wishes, Somdev Vasudeva From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 18 18:39:31 2004 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 10:39:31 -0800 Subject: Women Message-ID: <161227074175.23782.16323384398670000883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recall that Stephanie Jamison gave a paper on a related issue at the "Between the Empires Conference" at the University of Texas last year. The proceedings are not yet published but perhaps she could supply a copy. RIchard Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Martin Fosse" To: Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: Women > Dear members of the list, > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about Sanskrit texts > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. Typically, > the courtesan fits this description, but the student would also like to > know if there are texts that describe more "mainstream" women in this > manner. Such women could for instance be aristocrats or religious > specialists. I would be grateful for any references/suggestions. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Mar 18 20:13:15 2004 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 12:13:15 -0800 Subject: Women In-Reply-To: <000e01c40d23$5dc67480$97b74382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074185.23782.1143999497090150691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Would you happen to know the email address of the right Jamison? jamison at humnet.ucla.edu -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From hanneder at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE Thu Mar 18 18:17:40 2004 From: hanneder at INDOLOGIE.UNI-HALLE.DE (Juergen Hanneder) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 19:17:40 +0100 Subject: Women In-Reply-To: <000801c40d16$29c90ce0$de974382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074192.23782.1159748320939083279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not sure whether this is of much help for the purpose, because one would have to go through a fair amount of Sanskrit text, but in the Mok.sopaaya alias Yogavaasi.s.tha there are quite a few women with soteriological "knowledge". These women are the main actors in a plot, by the way superior to their husbands in knowledge and agency; the most important ones, Liilaa and Cuu.daalaa are queens. References can be given on request. Kind regards, Juergen Hanneder From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 18 18:23:26 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 19:23:26 +0100 Subject: Women Message-ID: <161227074172.23782.43130138850462657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about Sanskrit texts that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. Typically, the courtesan fits this description, but the student would also like to know if there are texts that describe more "mainstream" women in this manner. Such women could for instance be aristocrats or religious specialists. I would be grateful for any references/suggestions. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 18 19:37:13 2004 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 19:37:13 +0000 Subject: Women In-Reply-To: <000801c40d16$29c90ce0$de974382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074177.23782.7614236748107019325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not Sanskrit, but chapter 4 "Nayaka Anthropology" in Symbols of Substance: Court and State in Nayaka Period Tamilnadu, by Rao, Shulman and Subrahmanyam, explores some Telugu and Tamil narrative texts which privilege the feminine voice (a recognized feature of S. India bhakti poets), and - most interestingly - discusses the expression of internalized thought and feeling in the female characters of these narratives. Best, Dominik On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear members of the list, > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about Sanskrit texts > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. Typically, > the courtesan fits this description, but the student would also like to > know if there are texts that describe more "mainstream" women in this > manner. Such women could for instance be aristocrats or religious > specialists. I would be grateful for any references/suggestions. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 18 19:45:22 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 20:45:22 +0100 Subject: SV: Women In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074180.23782.13635973581908819247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Dominik! I'll pass this on to Grethe, she would probably be interested. Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P? vegne av > Dominik Wujastyk > Sendt: 18. mars 2004 20:37 > Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Emne: Re: Women > > > Not Sanskrit, but chapter 4 "Nayaka Anthropology" in Symbols > of Substance: Court and State in Nayaka Period Tamilnadu, by > Rao, Shulman and Subrahmanyam, explores some Telugu and Tamil > narrative texts which privilege the feminine voice (a > recognized feature of S. India bhakti poets), and - most > interestingly - discusses the expression of internalized > thought and feeling in the female characters of these narratives. > > Best, > Dominik > > > On Thu, 18 Mar 2004, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about > Sanskrit texts > > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. > > Typically, the courtesan fits this description, but the > student would > > also like to know if there are texts that describe more > "mainstream" > > women in this manner. Such women could for instance be > aristocrats or > > religious specialists. I would be grateful for any > > references/suggestions. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > From: > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 18 19:58:21 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 20:58:21 +0100 Subject: SV: Women In-Reply-To: <06cf01c40d18$5a1ca760$ae565f80@allrsdelld8200> Message-ID: <161227074182.23782.3414917828813351194.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for the info, Richard! I have tried to track down Stephanie Jamison's email address, but there seems to be at least two Stephanie Jamisons in US akademia. Would you happen to know the email address of the right Jamison? Best regards, Lars Martin From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P? vegne av > Richard Salomon > Sendt: 18. mars 2004 19:40 > Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Emne: Re: Women > > > I recall that Stephanie Jamison gave a paper on a related > issue at the "Between the Empires Conference" at the > University of Texas last year. The proceedings are not yet > published but perhaps she could supply a copy. > > RIchard Salomon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lars Martin Fosse" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:23 AM > Subject: Women > > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about > Sanskrit texts > > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. > > Typically, the courtesan fits this description, but the > student would > > also like to know if there are texts that describe more > "mainstream" > > women in this manner. Such women could for instance be > aristocrats or > > religious specialists. I would be grateful for any > > references/suggestions. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > From: > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > > > From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET Fri Mar 19 03:31:08 2004 From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 04 22:31:08 -0500 Subject: Women In-Reply-To: <000e01c40d23$5dc67480$97b74382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074189.23782.10272524518046754295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin, I have not seen this but it may be useful also: Jewels of Authority : Women and Textual Tradition in Hindu India by Patton, Laurie L.; Oxford University; New Delhi 2002. Best, George Thompson > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about > Sanskrit texts > > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. > > Typically, the courtesan fits this description, but the > student would > > also like to know if there are texts that describe more > "mainstream" > > women in this manner. Such women could for instance be > aristocrats or > > religious specialists. I would be grateful for any > > references/suggestions. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > From: > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > > > From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Mar 19 08:47:20 2004 From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 02:47:20 -0600 Subject: Women In-Reply-To: <20040318181740.BC79D3067A@nirvana.indologie.uni-halle.de> Message-ID: <161227074195.23782.2133841779936637311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some of the important figures in the Ga.n.davyuuhasuutra are also women. And don't forget the goddess chapter of the Vimalakiirtinirdes'a. Diana Paul edited an anthology of Buddhist texts on women that has some additional examples as well. Of course, in the Tamil Buddhist tradition Manimekhalai is very well known---your student may be interested in the works of Paula Richman and Anne Monius on this central text. My article, "The Illusion of Spiritual Progress," in Buswell and Gimello, eds., Paths to Liberation, offers an example of some of the problems surrounding the interpretation of attributions of agency, etc., to women in the Buddhist tantric traditions. Matthew Kapstein From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Fri Mar 19 19:43:01 2004 From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 11:43:01 -0800 Subject: Women Message-ID: <161227074208.23782.5386125800038641179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Doug Osto at SOAS is writing a dissertation on Gandavyuha with a focus on role of women as kalyanamitras. R. Salomon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Kapstein" To: Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 12:47 AM Subject: Re: Women > Some of the important figures in the Ga.n.davyuuhasuutra > are also women. And don't forget the goddess chapter > of the Vimalakiirtinirdes'a. Diana Paul edited an > anthology of Buddhist texts on women that has some > additional examples as well. Of course, in the Tamil > Buddhist tradition Manimekhalai is very well known---your > student may be interested in the works of Paula Richman and > Anne Monius on this central text. > > My article, "The Illusion of Spiritual Progress," in Buswell > and Gimello, eds., Paths to Liberation, offers an example > of some of the problems surrounding the interpretation > of attributions of agency, etc., to women in the Buddhist > tantric traditions. > > Matthew Kapstein > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Mar 19 12:22:03 2004 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 12:22:03 +0000 Subject: mail anomalies Message-ID: <161227074198.23782.5574636790693885494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Something odd seems to be happening here over the past few weeks, fairly regularly, with incoming msgs from the Indology list -- I am getting some msgs, including mys own, several days after they were presumably posted, sometimes I am getting replies long before the preceding msgs to which they reply themselves finally arrive. Eg. I got Jonathan's correction ('gyun = 'gyur) three days before I got the relevent msg it corrects ! The recent msg from Vasudeva posted 13/03 finally arrived here on 18/03 -- this was particularly annoying because I sent a msg making the same points several days before the 13/03 but it never got posted so I had to resend it -- only to be told off-list by Arlo Griffiths that somebody had already made those suggestions which I had not yet seen at that point. This problem seems to be unique to the Indology list as far as I am concerned but any suggestions would be appreciated. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 19 21:18:58 2004 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 13:18:58 -0800 Subject: Women In-Reply-To: <000801c40d16$29c90ce0$de974382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074215.23782.15410461168042237565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some information on this topic can be found in my article: >"Language, Gender and Power: The Sexual Politics of Language and >Language Acquisition in Traditional India" in Invented Identities: >The Interplay of Gender, Religion and Politics in India" Julia >Leslie and Mary McGee eds. Oxford University Press, April 2000. > Dear members of the list, > >On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about Sanskrit texts >that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. Typically, >the courtesan fits this description, but the student would also like to >know if there are texts that describe more "mainstream" women in this >manner. Such women could for instance be aristocrats or religious >specialists. I would be grateful for any references/suggestions. > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > >From: >Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo - Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >E-mail: lmfosse at online.no >DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. >MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY >MALICIOUS OPERATORS. -- Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 642.2409 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 19 13:36:16 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 14:36:16 +0100 Subject: SV: Women In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074201.23782.12943358974554055573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, George! I passed this on to my student. LM From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] P? vegne av > George Thompson > Sendt: 19. mars 2004 04:31 > Til: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Emne: Re: Women > > > Lars Martin, > > I have not seen this but it may be useful also: > > Jewels of Authority : Women and Textual Tradition in Hindu > India by Patton, Laurie L.; Oxford University; New Delhi 2002. > > Best, > > George Thompson > > > > > > > > Dear members of the list, > > > > > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about > > Sanskrit texts > > > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. > > > Typically, the courtesan fits this description, but the > > student would > > > also like to know if there are texts that describe more > > "mainstream" > > > women in this manner. Such women could for instance be > > aristocrats or > > > religious specialists. I would be grateful for any > > > references/suggestions. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > > > From: > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > > 0674 Oslo - Norway > > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > > > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > > > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > > > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > > > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > > > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > > > > > > > > From chlodwig.h.werba at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Mar 19 15:35:10 2004 From: chlodwig.h.werba at UNIVIE.AC.AT (srutavega) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 16:35:10 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?striihitopade=C2=B4saaya?= In-Reply-To: <000801c40d16$29c90ce0$de974382@Winston> Message-ID: <161227074205.23782.15064233685354927256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleague, Please give Your student a hint to the 12th stanza of the manu.syavarga of Amarasi.mha's Naamalingaanu?saasana (Ak. II 6,12cd)! namaskaarapuurva.m saadhayati ?srutavega.h. > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]Im Auftrag von Lars > Martin Fosse > Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 18. M?rz 2004 19.23 > An: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Betreff: Women > > Dear members of the list, > > On behalf of a student, I would like to ask you about Sanskrit texts > that portray women described as having knowledge and agency. Typically, > the courtesan fits this description, but the student would also like to > know if there are texts that describe more "mainstream" women in this > manner. Such women could for instance be aristocrats or religious > specialists. I would be grateful for any references/suggestions. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET Fri Mar 19 18:25:44 2004 From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 18:25:44 +0000 Subject: Verse attributed to Kalidasa In-Reply-To: <004401c40c3b$2035d860$c484d38d@lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu> Message-ID: <161227074212.23782.13979789656814674679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have you had any replies on this yet? My reaction on reading it was that it didn't sound very Indian--unless it's a *very* free translation. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK At 11:15 am -0500 17/3/04, Donald R. Davis, Jr. wrote: >Though another scholar asked this question on the RISA list some time ago, >no response came forth. I am asking it again here at a student's prompting. >The student is interested in a Sanskrit version of an English verse usually >titled "Salutation to the Dawn" and attributed to Kalidasa. > >The only information I was able to find is that "Salutation of the Dawn" is >mentioned in Harvey Cushing's The Life of Sir William Osler (London: Oxford >University Press; 1940): 1041, indicating the poem was inscribed in a copy >of Osler's 1913 Silliman Foundation address, with his note indicating he >didn't know who wrote it. Cushing, in a footnote, comments: "Said to be from >the Sanskrit, the poem was published, as an inserted frontispiece, in 'Words >in Pain', Lond., G.M. Bishop, 1919." > >One of several versions I have found reads: > >Look to this day! For it is life, the very life of life. For yesterday is >but a dream And tomorrow is only a vision But today well lived makes every >yesterday a dream of happiness And tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, >therefore, to this day! Such is the salutation of the dawn. > >Can anyone provide a Sanskrit original for this verse and/or confirm its >origins in Kalidasa or Sanskrit literature generally? > >Thanks for any leads, > >Don Davis >Dept of Asian Languages & Cultures >University of Michigan From JFStaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Sat Mar 20 19:38:12 2004 From: JFStaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Frits Staal) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 04 11:38:12 -0800 Subject: Gene Smith Message-ID: <161227074232.23782.18354944762897959871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was thrilled to read your "remarkable story" on Gene Smith who happens to be one of my oldest friends. But I saw that important things were missing and mentioned it to Dominik Wujastyk who encouraged me to write about it to the Indology list. I had to read the TLS article first and there I found some of the things I had missed and that would be of interest to Indologists but they were mentioned in a rather confusing and misleading manner. And so I would like to add a few observations even though this is not my field. Cynthia Haven, author of the TLS commentary, writes how she visited Smith in his "Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center" (TBRC) in New York where his collection is now housed thanks to Shelley and Donald Rubin. She adds by way of explanation: "Until 2001, this astonishing collection was housed in Smith's six-room duplex in Cambridge, Massachussets." But later in the article, when she describes how Smith shows her some books from his collection, she writes: "These are Indian reprints of Tibetan works Smith supervised during his years as a Library of Congress employee in New Delhi, collecting books of all languages and publishing them under Public Law 480, with money generated from the sale of excess agricultural commodities. The books he published, gathered from escaping Tibetans, might otherwise have simply vanished." It is the latter information that was missing from the Indology list story; but it needs some updating. Smith was in Delhi and elsewhere in Asia for many decades as a Field Director for the Library of Congress. After his retirement, he went with his books to Cambridge, Mass., where they were housed in his flat. That was prior to 2001, true, but prior to those few years they were in Asia, constantly being added to and published in hundreds and hundreds of volumes that have been on the bookshelves of Tibetan institutes all over the world for almost half a century. They may soon be streaming over the world and be "virtually indestructible," as you comment on, but much of that material has already been studied, translated and made accessible by scholars of Tibetan. Rare Tibetan texts are now being published in China in great quantities also and these are becoming increasingly available. These are some of the facts that deserve to be known by the readers of your Indology excerpt from the TLS commentary. Frits Staal http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal/ From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Mar 20 18:01:28 2004 From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 04 12:01:28 -0600 Subject: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? In-Reply-To: <405C7F9D.7020307@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227074222.23782.12391194424950874969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you referring to the conversion of scanned text, that is to say, a system of Devanagari optical character recognition? The convention of writing Devangari with a bar linking the syllables has posed an obstacle for software development in this area. Perhaps some of the other list members are more up to date than I in their knowledge of current progress to resolve this. But if you are speaking of conversion of coded devanagari input, unicode or otherwise, there should be no formal obstacle to the creation of suitable conversion macros. Matthew Kapstein From Somadevah at AOL.COM Sat Mar 20 19:16:16 2004 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 04 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Convert_Devanagari_into_romanized_text:_any_automatic_tools=3F?= Message-ID: <161227074229.23782.12347502334539595066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 20/3/04 5:30:43 pm, birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT writes: > I was wondering whether there are any utilities which can convert > Devanagari writing into romanized text and also implement proper > word-separation. I doubt that something like this would be possible, but > maybe I'm thinking along the wrong lines. > Going from Roman to Devanaagarii is comparatively easy. Probably the best way is to write a PERL text filter. For instance, if you take the huge and fabulous (despite many typos) collection of "saastric etexts available from the Raasthriya Sanskrita Vidyaapeetha (http://sansknet.org/) you will need to convert them to whatever encoding you use. They have helpfully provided a couple of conversion programs to do this. For me (mac os x) these produced a number of unexpected errors (tp for pt etc.) because there are often several ways to input conjunct characters, so I ended up spending an afternoon writing a PERL filter. Still not perfect but the remaining errors can be removed by hand when reading through the texts. I have never tried word-separation but it is not impossible. There are electronic Sanskrit parsers available, see for instance "Desika" at http://tdil.mit.gov.in/nlptools/ach-nlptools.htm. best wishes, Somdev Vasudeva (happy to send the PERL filter for Sansknet to anyone who needs it) From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sat Mar 20 23:22:14 2004 From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 04 17:22:14 -0600 Subject: Gene Smith In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040320113338.00a0aaa0@socrates.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227074236.23782.6813149618662419964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I hate to take exception to the remarks of the learned Prof. Staal, it is simply not true that much of the Tibetan material so admirably published in South Asia under the guidance Gene Smith has already been "studied, translated and made accessible" by scholars of Tibet. Of the roughly 5000 volumes of Tibetan materials published under the PL480 program, only a small fraction, probably fewer than 10%, have been made the object of serious study of any kind, much less translated. Because much of the printing was done using relatively poor quality paper, and because many of the US collections have not been carefully maintained, a large share of the texts now available pose conservation problems, even before anyone will ever study them. Hence the great value of Gene Smith's present efforts to scan and distribute e-versions of these materials. Matthew Kapstein From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat Mar 20 17:30:05 2004 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 04 18:30:05 +0100 Subject: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? Message-ID: <161227074219.23782.4957959415551927355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear fellow list-members, I was wondering whether there are any utilities which can convert Devanagari writing into romanized text and also implement proper word-separation. I doubt that something like this would be possible, but maybe I'm thinking along the wrong lines. A main difficulty I see is that spacing in Devanagari and romanized text is not identical, and that it is not possible to automatically convert Devanagari spacing into romanized spacing. Take, for instance, DharmakIrti's PramANavArttika verse 301: kriyAsAdhanam ity eva sarvaM sarvasya karmaNaH | sAdhanaM na hi tat tasyAH sAdhanaM yA kriyA yataH || If I were to write this up for Devanagari presentation in LaTeX, for instance, I would join strings of words like this: kriyAsAdhanamityeva sarvaM sarvasya karmaNaH | sAdhanaM na hi tattasyAH sAdhanaM yA kriyA yataH || If a program were to convert the text written for Devanagari into text suitable for romanized presentation, it would have to have the full Sanskrit lexicon available, with all paradigms and forms of inflection, and it would have to compute all Sandhi rules. (Most likely even this would produce garbage, there being too many possibilities in the lexicon, but perhaps with a more context-sensitive lexicon this might work.) But even then, how is the program to know that "kriyAsAdhanam" is a compound and not a phrase "kriyA sAdhanam"? In systems where text is entered in romanized form and then converted to Devanagari through some processor (like LaTeX), this could be circumvented with a hyphenation convention. One could write "kriyA-sAdhanam" and write a program that (a) ignores dashes for Devanagari conversion and (b) takes dashes into consideration when converting from Devanagari to proper romanized text ("leave hyphenated words together, and perform separations on all other strings"). But when you have e.g. a straightforward Devanagari text, not hyphenated or tagged in any form, how could you possibly handle such ambiguities? Thanks in advance for any suggestions and comments, best regards, Birgit Kellner From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat Mar 20 18:26:13 2004 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 04 19:26:13 +0100 Subject: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074226.23782.18397286664519906780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, I'm not talking about OCR. What I'm talking about is that in Devanagari, words are not always separated by spaces, but in romanized Sanskrit they are. I am talking about conversion from non-separated Devanagari text to romanized text where all words are separated with spaces. If you know of any macros that can do this, please let me know. I'm having a hard time even imagining this would be possible, let alone writing macros for this purpose ... Best regards, Birgit Kellner Matthew Kapstein wrote: >Are you referring to the conversion of scanned text, >that is to say, a system of Devanagari optical character recognition? >The convention of writing Devangari with a bar linking the syllables >has posed an obstacle for software development in this area. >Perhaps some of the other list members are more up to date than >I in their knowledge of current progress to resolve this. > >But if you are speaking of conversion of coded devanagari input, >unicode or otherwise, there should be no formal obstacle to >the creation of suitable conversion macros. > >Matthew Kapstein > > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun Mar 21 11:51:30 2004 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 04 12:51:30 +0100 Subject: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227074248.23782.15351699531482466773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thanks, Arlo (and thanks to all the others who have so far responded on the list and off-list). The Sanskrit Reader project as such sounds very interesting, indeed. But on the website I find no information about whether it is completed, on what platforms it is available, whether it can be downloaded somewhere ... has anyone seen or used the software already? These things make me wish there were a central inventory of ongoing software projects, something like a forum where people can enter short descriptions of their projects, with URLs, and linked from the main INDOLOGY site. If there's general interest in this, I could look into setting it up at our institute's website, where we have forum software installed already. Best regards, Birgit Best regards, Birgit Kellner Arlo Griffiths wrote: >Is the following reference of help? > >http://www.sanskritreader.de/ > >Arlo Griffiths > > > From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun Mar 21 10:55:32 2004 From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 04 12:55:32 +0200 Subject: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? In-Reply-To: <20040321011153.GA267@mahoney.remote.comnet.co.nz> Message-ID: <161227074243.23782.17492834986624284679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the following reference of help? http://www.sanskritreader.de/ Arlo Griffiths > From: Richard MAHONEY > Reply-To: Indology > Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:11:53 +1200 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? > > Dear Birgit, > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 07:26:13PM +0100, Birgit Kellner wrote: >> No, I'm not talking about OCR. >> >> What I'm talking about is that in Devanagari, words are not always >> separated by spaces, but in romanized Sanskrit they are. I am talking >> about conversion from non-separated Devanagari text to romanized text >> where all words are separated with spaces. If you know of any macros >> that can do this, please let me know. I'm having a hard time even >> imagining this would be possible, let alone writing macros for this >> purpose ... > > December last, Peter Scharf mentioned that he and a colleague were > working on producing `morphological generation and analysis software > for Sanskrit'. This software may be able to parse non-separated > Devanagari text and then convert it into separated Romanised text. You > might like to mail Scharf about the status of his project. > > > Kind regards, > > Richard > > > -- > Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney > Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 > Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 > OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Sun Mar 21 01:11:53 2004 From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard MAHONEY) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 04 13:11:53 +1200 Subject: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? In-Reply-To: <405C8CC5.3020404@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227074239.23782.5849962518408999815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Birgit, On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 07:26:13PM +0100, Birgit Kellner wrote: > No, I'm not talking about OCR. > > What I'm talking about is that in Devanagari, words are not always > separated by spaces, but in romanized Sanskrit they are. I am talking > about conversion from non-separated Devanagari text to romanized text > where all words are separated with spaces. If you know of any macros > that can do this, please let me know. I'm having a hard time even > imagining this would be possible, let alone writing macros for this > purpose ... December last, Peter Scharf mentioned that he and a colleague were working on producing `morphological generation and analysis software for Sanskrit'. This software may be able to parse non-separated Devanagari text and then convert it into separated Romanised text. You might like to mail Scharf about the status of his project. Kind regards, Richard -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney Littledene | telephone / telefax (man.): ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG Mon Mar 22 09:00:48 2004 From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 04 11:00:48 +0200 Subject: Convert Devanagari and... Indology.Ru Message-ID: <161227074251.23782.10524320301713162045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: Birgit Kellner To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Convert Devanagari into romanized text: any automatic tools? > These things make me wish there were a central inventory of ongoing > software projects, something like a forum where people can enter short > descriptions of their projects, with URLs, and linked from the main > INDOLOGY site. There is one already existing, but I don't have the time to make it public and announce it properly. The address is www.academic.indology.net One can post software codes, upload gifs, articles and white papers up to 300K. If this is not enough we can also install the specialised PhProject or DotProject script at www.sanskrit.indology.net to handle only this specific project. If there are volunteers to take the lead of the project, please contact me privately and we can arrange the subdomain, the script clean install and the administrative privileges. The only drawback is that the server is commercial (owned and managed by Eurasia Academic Publishers), not academic, and scholars usually have suspicions towards non-academics, mainly because the latter have to pay for the pleasure to engage in indological studies, while academics are paid for the selfsame pleasure. Anyway, I have also the pleasure to announce the launch of the Russian INDOLOGY portal at www.indology.ru Best regards, Plamen Gradinarov Ph.D., D.Sc., Founder Eurasia Academic Publishers www.orientalia.org www.indology.net www.slavica.org From pf at CIX.CO.UK Tue Mar 23 19:34:00 2004 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 04 19:34:00 +0000 Subject: Centre of Jaina Studies Event Message-ID: <161227074254.23782.9276350958728119976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends of the Centre of Jaina Studies at SOAS, You are invited to a special lecture by Prof W. Bollee of the University of Heidelberg entitled 'Notes on Mahapurusas in ancient Indian literature' (see attachment). The lecture will take place on Friday 16 April, SOAS Brunei Gallery, 4-5 pm. The lecture is public. Everyone is welcome! (no rsvp required). Dr Peter Fluegel Chair of the Centre of Jaina Studies Department of the Study of Religions Faculty of Arts and Humanities School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies From SkoraKM at HIRAM.EDU Thu Mar 25 10:56:06 2004 From: SkoraKM at HIRAM.EDU (Skora, Kerry) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 04 05:56:06 -0500 Subject: History of Religion Message-ID: <161227074262.23782.16071552723509694381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/HR/home.html Kerry Martin Skora Assistant Professor Department of Religious Studies Hiram College Hiram, OH 44234 USA office: 330-569-5149 fax: 330-569-5130 email: skorakm at hiram.edu > ---------- > From: Lars Martin Fosse > Reply To: Indology > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 5:51 AM > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: History of Religion > > Dear members of the list, > > Does anybody have a web address for the journal History of Religion? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 25 10:51:35 2004 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 04 11:51:35 +0100 Subject: History of Religion Message-ID: <161227074258.23782.11755957970977489082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, Does anybody have a web address for the journal History of Religion? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse From: Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse at online.no DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 26 12:03:54 2004 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 04 12:03:54 +0000 Subject: Online ordering of Sanskrit and Prakrit MSS from the Wellcome Library Message-ID: <161227074266.23782.5902865651372651571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The online ordering system for Sanskrit and Prakrit manuscripts from the Wellcome Library has had a major update, and has moved from the main INDOLOGY website page to the "Digital Art and Manuscripts" page of the website: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet-art.html The Wellcome Library has mounted a system for the online ordering of paper, film, or digital copies of the 1000 MSS described in vol.I of the library's Handlist of Sanskrit & Prakrit MSS. The service could be extended to offer similar access to the 1000 MSS described in vol.II of the library's Handlist. This would be subject to genuine demand from users. The library can be emailed at library at wellcome.ac.uk Dominik Wujastyk From arganis at TODITO.COM Fri Mar 26 13:31:48 2004 From: arganis at TODITO.COM (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 04 13:31:48 +0000 Subject: History of Religion Message-ID: <161227074269.23782.7066681545628045246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Dear members of the list, > > Does anybody have a web address for the journal History of Religion? Dearest Professor? www. ICJ.org > Best regards, MC Horacio Fco. Arganis. > Lars Martin Fosse > > From: > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse at online.no > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > ___________________________________________________ - ?Toma el control con todito Card! L?der en Internet pre-pagado; www.toditocard.com - Evoluciona... ?es mejor con toditoshop! L?der de Comercio Electr?nico en M?xico; www.toditoshop.com From smets at ORI.UCL.AC.BE Sat Mar 27 07:04:54 2004 From: smets at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Sandra SMETS) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 04 08:04:54 +0100 Subject: BhP 3.26.32-49 Message-ID: <161227074272.23782.109251374237107658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I am currently studying the speculative portions of the Jaiminiiyasa.mhitaa of the Brahmaa.n.dapuraa.na (under the direction of Christophe Vielle). I found a passage that is parallel to BhP 3.26.32-49. This text enumerates the characteristics or properties of the gross and the subtle elements. I also found such an enumeration in AhirbudhnyaSa 7.21-40. Could anyone help me in finding other parallels or sources of this section ? Thank you very much for your help. Sandra SMETS Institut orientaliste - Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud-Est Place Blaise Pascal, 1 B-1348 Louvain-la-Neuve Belgique From pf at CIX.CO.UK Sat Mar 27 14:28:00 2004 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 04 14:28:00 +0000 Subject: jaina studies scholarship Message-ID: <161227074276.23782.14989752276647178690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Scholarships offered by the Centre of Jaina Studies Jain Spirit Scholarship. This award is sponsored by the Jain Spirit Magazine. The total value of this scholarship is ?5000, and it is awarded to students registered in the Department of the Study of Religions for postgraduate research on Jainism. Students can apply for any amount within the total sum of this scholarship. Deadline 31 August. Enquiries: P. Fl?gel (pf8 at soas.ac.uk). Centre of Jaina Studies Department of the Study of Religions Faculty of Arts and Humanities School of Oriental and African Studies University of London Thornhaugh Street Russell Square London WC1H OXG Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776 E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 30 23:15:04 2004 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 04 18:15:04 -0500 Subject: Verse attributed to Kalidasa Message-ID: <161227074279.23782.2945969978370817966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This quote came up on the list back in 1995. If you do a search in the Indology archives under "Look to this day" you get a number of hits, the pertinent ones of which have the subjects Nietzsche and Rig Veda, Help with source, and "Look to this day" quote. We didn't get very far. Nothing like it is in Rueckert's translation of the Atharvaveda, and I never got around to checking the rest of his translations and poems, which is one line of pursuit that occurred to me. It was also stated that there was a slightly similar statement in Kahlil Gibran, whose style it reminds me of. Thinking about the issue now, I also wonder if it might be from one of F. W. Bain's marvelous Orientalist books (imitations of Kathasaritsagara). But Bain sticks closer than this to sentiments actually expressed in Sanskrit. Could someone have taken something from him and modified it? I recently investigated Elbert Hubbard, the late 19th-c. American sage, publisher, and Arts and Crafts Movement activist, while helping my parents prune their library. This sounds like something he might have used. I will see if I can check his larger works for it. Later... I have looked through Christian Scholz's Computer-Index zu Friedrich Ruckert (Frankfurt am Main, etc.: Lang, 1978), which contains the text of Rueckert's poetry as well as a concordance, looking at all citations for Tag and its inflections, and for Morgen and Moergenrot, and found nothing similar. I also scanned the first line or two of the sonnets or verses or sections in those works which were divided. So it looks like Rueckert is one line that can be ruled out. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. >>> drdj at UMICH.EDU 3/17/2004 11:15:55 AM >>> Though another scholar asked this question on the RISA list some time ago, no response came forth. I am asking it again here at a student's prompting. The student is interested in a Sanskrit version of an English verse usually titled "Salutation to the Dawn" and attributed to Kalidasa. The only information I was able to find is that "Salutation of the Dawn" is mentioned in Harvey Cushing's The Life of Sir William Osler (London: Oxford University Press; 1940): 1041, indicating the poem was inscribed in a copy of Osler's 1913 Silliman Foundation address, with his note indicating he didn't know who wrote it. Cushing, in a footnote, comments: "Said to be from the Sanskrit, the poem was published, as an inserted frontispiece, in 'Words in Pain', Lond., G.M. Bishop, 1919." One of several versions I have found reads: Look to this day! For it is life, the very life of life. For yesterday is but a dream And tomorrow is only a vision But today well lived makes every yesterday a dream of happiness And tomorrow a vision of hope. Look well, therefore, to this day! Such is the salutation of the dawn. Can anyone provide a Sanskrit original for this verse and/or confirm its origins in Kalidasa or Sanskrit literature generally? Thanks for any leads, Don Davis Dept of Asian Languages & Cultures University of Michigan From cln at SAS.UPENN.EDU Wed Mar 31 22:55:30 2004 From: cln at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 04 17:55:30 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Ad for Marathi instructor Message-ID: <161227074283.23782.3571641975300072315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please respond to Dr. Gambhir directly. Christian > >A Position for Marathi Instructor > >The University of Pennsylvania is seeking a part time instructor for >teaching Beginning Marathi in the academic year 2004-5. >Applicants must have a college degree in Marathi language, literature, >linguistics or any other related discipline. >The salary may depend on the number of enrollments. > > >Interested candidates should send a CV and a letter of interest to the >following address: > > >Dr. Vijay Gambhir >vgambhir at sas.upenn.edu >Department of South Asia Studies >University of Pennsylvania >Philadelphia, PA. 19104-2615 > > > Christian Lee Novetzke Assistant Professor of South Asia Studies 3600 Market Street, Suite 501b Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA Email: cln at sas.upenn.edu Website: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln Tel (215) 898-7475 Fax: (215) 573-2138