From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Fri Dec  3 15:42:35 2004
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 04 10:42:35 -0500
Subject: Indological Spam
In-Reply-To: <a06110400bdd619958a48@[80.40.42.120]>
Message-ID: <161227075468.23782.4706386217955716628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bagchee is a bit of a pain to say the least

If you have a filter in your settings for your e-mail you can make a
filter and never see another one. My filter is under "special" in the
menu bar but yours may be somewhere else in "Settings" or
"Preferences," I have found my filtering options very useful.

However Bagchee occasionally alerts me to a useful book that I then
buy from someone who is much cheaper.

John



>What do members do about spam from firms who presumably collect our
>email addresses from these lists?  At present I am being plagued by
>an Indian bookseller's firm called Bagchee.com, who keep sending
>'newsletters' about 150k in size.  I've had 4 during the past week.
>The 'unsubscribe' button on their website does not work.  Messages
>sent to their email address bounce back labelled 'User mailbox
>exceeds allowed size'.  Messages sent to 'postmaster' or 'abuse' @
>their ISP don't seem to be delivered either.  Legal sanctions seem to
>work only with firms based in the same country.
>
>Does anyone know how to deal with this nuisance?
>
>(With apologies for cross-posting)
>
>Valerie J Roebuck
>Manchester, UK




From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET  Fri Dec  3 13:40:43 2004
From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 04 13:40:43 +0000
Subject: Indological Spam
Message-ID: <161227075463.23782.14651252331820642214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What do members do about spam from firms who presumably collect our
email addresses from these lists?  At present I am being plagued by
an Indian bookseller's firm called Bagchee.com, who keep sending
'newsletters' about 150k in size.  I've had 4 during the past week.
The 'unsubscribe' button on their website does not work.  Messages
sent to their email address bounce back labelled 'User mailbox
exceeds allowed size'.  Messages sent to 'postmaster' or 'abuse' @
their ISP don't seem to be delivered either.  Legal sanctions seem to
work only with firms based in the same country.

Does anyone know how to deal with this nuisance?

(With apologies for cross-posting)

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK




From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG  Fri Dec  3 14:21:12 2004
From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 04 16:21:12 +0200
Subject: Indological Spam
Message-ID: <161227075465.23782.13418626178917213570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At least this is a list-specific spam, not about Vyagra (some may contend
that vyagra spam is also list specific) and it does not affect my Y-Indology
mail. There are lot of places where a DoS attack against bagchee.com can be
set up.

But I woul recommend Clamav with Spam Assassin. And report the intruder to
http://www.spamassassin.org

Best,
Plamen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Valerie J Roebuck" <vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 3:40 PM
Subject: Indological Spam


> What do members do about spam from firms who presumably collect our
> email addresses from these lists?  At present I am being plagued by
> an Indian bookseller's firm called Bagchee.com, who keep sending
> 'newsletters' about 150k in size.  I've had 4 during the past week.
> The 'unsubscribe' button on their website does not work.  Messages
> sent to their email address bounce back labelled 'User mailbox
> exceeds allowed size'.  Messages sent to 'postmaster' or 'abuse' @
> their ISP don't seem to be delivered either.  Legal sanctions seem to
> work only with firms based in the same country.
>
> Does anyone know how to deal with this nuisance?
>
> (With apologies for cross-posting)
>
> Valerie J Roebuck
> Manchester, UK
>
>




From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE  Tue Dec  7 14:42:00 2004
From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje)
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 04 14:42:00 +0000
Subject: Attention of Elliot Stern
Message-ID: <161227075470.23782.7540751559290840782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Elliot, I lost your address. Should you happen to read this, please email me:

slaje at t-online.de

Thanks,

Walter

--------------------------
Prof Dr Walter Slaje
Hermann-Loens-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar (Germany)
Tel./Fax: ++49-(0)3643-501391
www.indologie.uni-halle.de




From arganis at TODITO.COM  Wed Dec  8 23:35:04 2004
From: arganis at TODITO.COM (Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez)
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 04 23:35:04 +0000
Subject: looking?
Message-ID: <161227075472.23782.15234061420693761710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Profesors: Namaste!!! I am looking for two clasicals on line: William James, The Varietes of Religious Experience and any of Rodolph Otto works about Comparative Misticism. Some of your fine persons have or know the webe sites about this? Thanks very much.
Pfr. Horacio F. Arganis J.
IEFAC



___________________________________________________
- ?Toma el control con todito Card! L?der en Internet pre-pagado; www.toditocard.com
- Evoluciona... ?es mejor con toditoshop! L?der de Comercio Electr?nico en M?xico; www.toditoshop.com




From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Dec  9 15:39:00 2004
From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat)
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 04 10:39:00 -0500
Subject: looking?
In-Reply-To: <W4881530995322051102548904@front-end3.todito.com>
Message-ID: <161227075474.23782.3507863968898929606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Horacio,
Please, check the following websites:
<http://www.emory.edu/EDUCATION/mfp/james.html#varieties>
<http://www.bytrent.demon.co.uk/index.html>
There is some information there about William James (Varieties of religious 
experiences) and Rudolf Otto (Idea of the Holy)
I hope it helps.

Bindu


--On 08 ??????? 2004 23:35 +0000 Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez 
<arganis at TODITO.COM> wrote:

> Dear Profesors: Namaste!!! I am looking for two clasicals on line:
> William James, The Varietes of Religious Experience and any of Rodolph
> Otto works about Comparative Misticism. Some of your fine persons have or
> know the webe sites about this? Thanks very much. Pfr. Horacio F. Arganis
> J.
> IEFAC
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________
> - ?Toma el control con todito Card! L?der en Internet pre-pagado;
> www.toditocard.com - Evoluciona... ?es mejor con toditoshop! L?der de
> Comercio Electr?nico en M?xico; www.toditoshop.com




From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Dec 10 11:57:03 2004
From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 04 11:57:03 +0000
Subject: INDOLOGY outage: Weekend closure of central computing facilities              8/9th January 2005
Message-ID: <161227075477.23782.10348694212234665429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Weekend of 8th/9th January 2005
CLOSURE of Computing Facilities
-------------------------------

UCL Information Systems, which hosts the INDOLOGY website, is planning a
weekend outage of computing and networking services in order to undertake
remedial electrical work.

This outage will run from 17.00hrs on Friday 7th January until 19:00hrs on
Sunday 9th January.  During this time, the INDOLOGY website will be down,
or at best only intermittently available.


DW




From e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK  Sat Dec 11 17:45:32 2004
From: e.demichelis at DIVINITY.CAM.AC.UK (Elizabeth De Michelis)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 04 17:45:32 +0000
Subject: DHIIR (Cambridge, UK) closing down
Message-ID: <161227075479.23782.13816875155316479261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

11.12.2004

Dear Colleagues,

Re: DHIIR (Cambridge, UK) closing down

Those of you who know about the DHIIR
(http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/dhiir/), University of Cambridge, UK, or who
have an interest in research on yoga, Ayurveda and their modernisation may
be interested in the following:

The DHIIR (especially known over the last few years for its research on the
modernisation of yoga and Ayurveda) closed down at the end of September
2004. This step was taken as it was unanimously agreed that any further
funding should now be used to sponsor active laboratory research in
Ayurveda. The latter type of research, of course, could not be carried out
at the Faculty of Divinity.

Former DHIIR staff have since moved on to other things: I remain at the
Faculty of Divinity as CARTS Reseach Fellow, where I will continue my
research on Modern Yoga and related subjects. My former Research
Assistants, Ms Dagmar Benner and Mr Mark Singleton, have resumed work on
their PhD theses and Mrs Rajashree Dhanaraj, former DHIIR
Secretary-Coordinator, is still working for the University of Cambridge,
but now at the Department of Public Health & Primary Care.

Further information about these and future developments will be found in
the closing-down issue of the DHIIR Newsletter (pls request if interested)
and, in due course, on my website at: www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/modernyoga

With best regards

                                                                                                                Elizabeth De Michelis, former Director, DHIIR


Dr Elizabeth De Michelis
University of Cambridge
Faculty of Divinity             Tel +44-(0)1223-763015
West Road                       Fax +44-(0)1223-763014
Cambridge, UK      CB3 9BS
for details of recently published book please see
http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/CARTS/dhiir/publications/modyoga.html




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Dec 14 01:55:19 2004
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 04 20:55:19 -0500
Subject: EJVS 11-2: no Indus 'script'
Message-ID: <161227075481.23782.629217106595194796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following may be of interest to members:

ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES     (EJVS)
Vol. 11 (2004)  Issue 2 (December 13) : 19-57      ( C)  ISSN 1084-7561

The Collapse of the Indus-Script Thesis:
The Myth of a Literate Harappan Civilization

By Steve Farmer,  Richard Sproat,  and Michael Witzel

Abstract

Archaeologists have long claimed the Indus Valley as one of the four
literate centers of the early ancient world, complete with long texts
written on perishable materials. We demonstrate the impossibility of the
lost-manuscript thesis and show that Indus symbols were not even evolving
in linguistic directions after at least 600 years of use. Suggestions of
how Indus inscriptions were used are examined in nonlinguistic symbol
systems in the Near East that served important religious, political, and
social functions without encoding speech or serving as formal memory aids.
Evidence is reviewed that the Harappans'slack of a true script may have
been tied to the role played by their symbols in controlling large
multilinguistic populations; parallels are drawn to the later resistance
of priestly elites to the literate encoding of Vedic sources and to
similar phenomena in esoteric traditions outside South Asia. Discussion is
provided on some of the academic and political forces that helped sustain
the Indus-script myth for over 130 years and on ways in which our findings
transform current views of the Indus Valley and of the place of writing in
ancient civilizations in general.

The paper is available at:
http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm (fsw2.pdf)
and, of course, the EJVS website:
http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/issues.html

A discussion of the present paper is scheduled to appear in SCIENCE
Magazine on Dec. 17, 2004.
http://www.sciencemag.org

-------------------
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University
1 Bow Street , Cambridge MA 02138
1-617-495 3295           Fax: 496 8571
direct line:       496 2990
http://witzel at fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From bimahony at DAVIDSON.EDU  Wed Dec 15 21:44:19 2004
From: bimahony at DAVIDSON.EDU (Mahony, Bill)
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 04 16:44:19 -0500
Subject: Announcement of Muktabodha Graduate Fellowship
Message-ID: <161227075483.23782.4323828532581057756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGY Colleagues,

Please feel free to announce these dissertation research fellowships to any
students you feel would be qualified and interested in applying.

Thank you,

William K. Mahony
Professor of Religion
Davidson College
President,
Muktabodha Indological Research Institute.

***********


NAME OF FELLOWSHIP:

Muktabodha Indological Research Institute
Dissertation Research Fellowships in Hindu Studies


AMOUNT OF AWARD

$10,000 per student, to be used between June 2005 and December 2006.


QUALIFICATIONS:

Applicants must have completed their doctoral coursework in a Religion,
South Asian Studies, or related program and are now undertaking their
dissertation research. Fellows will normally use their grants to support
them while undertaking research in India.


FIELDS OF STUDY:

Preference will be given to the study of textual sources of the Hindu
Tantric tradition. However, applications from other fields of Hindu studies
are also welcome.


APPLICATION DEADLINE:

February 15, 2005.


ANNOUNCEMENT OF AWARDS:

Approximately March 15, 2005.


FOR APPLICATION MATERIALS, PLEASE CONTACT:

Muktabodha Indological Research Institute
www.muktabodha.org
info at muktabodha.org
P. O. Box 8585
Emeryville, CA  94662  USA
510-655-2170




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Dec 17 01:39:28 2004
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 04 20:39:28 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075486.23782.10611037981806031975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Our recent paper (Farmer, Sproat, WItzel) on the non-existent  Indus
'script'

available at:
http://www.safarmer.com/fsw2.pdf
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm (fsw2.pdf)
and, of course, the EJVS website:
http://users.primushost.com/~india/ejvs/issues.html

has been discussed in today's Science Magazine

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5704/2028?etoc

Cheers, MW


 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
Harvard University                   www.shore.net/~india/ejvs
1 Bow Street                         (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies)
Cambridge MA 02138, USA

phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From rlamb at HAWAII.RR.COM  Fri Dec 17 17:50:40 2004
From: rlamb at HAWAII.RR.COM (rlamb)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 07:50:40 -1000
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <p0601020dbde8c6837a9f@[128.146.41.35]>
Message-ID: <161227075501.23782.15122954200338327053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Huntington wrote:

> Thbis is from a connected server and is copied from the web site
>
> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5704/2028?etoc

The above page is only available to paid subscribers.

rl




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Fri Dec 17 07:32:09 2004
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 08:32:09 +0100
Subject: Hindi geographical names
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0412162036250.3467@ls03.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227075488.23782.6898684186233230533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Memebers:

I was asked (by the Polish Geodetical Service) to prepare a list of Indian
geographical names - with their Polish, Hindi and English versions.
Being unable to locate in Poland any detailed map of India in Devanagari
characters, I would like to ask for your kind assistance in determining
the Hindi equivalents (Kyoto transcription, with retroflex consonants) of
the following geographical names:

Paithan Dam
Aharbal Falls
Barehipani Falls
Nohkalikai Falls
Nohsngithiang Falls
Kynrem Falls
Hogenakal Falls
Gugamal N.P.
Marine N.P.
Neora Valley N.P.
Moiling N.P.
Namdapha N.P.
Balphakram N.P.
Intanki N.P.
Krem Um Lawan Cave
Krem Maw Tynhiang Cave
Borra Cave

Peaks:

Baintha Brakk
Barabar
Batura
Chameringu
Changabang
Chogolisa
Dapha Bum
Dhond
Dapjo Pahar
Falchan Kangri
Gasherbrum
Gurudongmar
Kangto
Kephyaklo
Kokthang
Kolahoi
Kunyang Chhish
Langpo Peak
Lulupo
Lungreng Tlang
Masherbrum
Mathuri
Namprik Phuk
Nunkun
Panchchuli
Pangol kha
Pemikhangchhen
Rakaposhi
Rataban
Richi La
Saramati
Saser Kangri
Satopanh
Shispare
Singarsi Peak
Sonam
Tatakuti
Tent Peak
Tungar

Towns:

Dhamtari
Dhurbi
Dindori
Godda
Gondia
Gumla
Haflong
Harda
Kasargode
Katnio
Keonjhar
Khurda
Koraput
Madikeri
Nongstoin
Orai
Oras
Orraiya
Painavu
Pakur
Parlakhemundi
Pathanamthitta
Perambalur
Rajouri
Reckong Peo
Saiha
Sidhi
Theni
Tinsukia
Tura


Thanking you in advance,

Artur Karp

South Asian Studies Deptt
University of Warsaw
Poland




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Fri Dec 17 17:08:16 2004
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 10:08:16 -0700
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075496.23782.17141498052632840165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Would somebody please give me the URL for Science article again because I
could not access it from the original post, for some unknown reason.
Thanks
Joanna Kirkpatrick

--------------------------------


Wow, I just read the article. Possehl actually SAID that???
("I don't think his ideas are interesting or viable, and I'm surprised they
have raised interest").
I am apalled. I disagree with Steve, as everyone will have noticed by now,
but his ideas are clearly extremely interesting and not to be taken lightly.

All the best,
Signe




From cohens at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Dec 17 16:18:59 2004
From: cohens at MISSOURI.EDU (Cohen, Signe)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 10:18:59 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075493.23782.2928184295296170055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Wow, I just read the article. Possehl actually SAID that???
("I don't think his ideas are interesting or viable, and I'm surprised they have raised interest"). 
I am apalled. I disagree with Steve, as everyone will have noticed by now, but his ideas are clearly extremely interesting and not to be taken lightly. 

All the best,
Signe




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Fri Dec 17 18:27:41 2004
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 11:27:41 -0700
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075506.23782.14267220172269459237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I must read it at our local uni. library it seems
Thanks to all who re-sent the URL
Joanna
==============================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Anderson" <dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"


> If you can connect through an affiliated university, you can usually get
> online access to these kinds of articles. For example, the universities
> here allow internet access at the library where these can be read.
>
> Dean Anderson
> South and Central Research Institute
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of rlamb
> >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:51 AM
> >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> >Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
> >
> >
> >John Huntington wrote:
> >
> >> Thbis is from a connected server and is copied from the web site
> >>
> >> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5704/2028?etoc
> >
> >The above page is only available to paid subscribers.
> >
> >rl
> >
>




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Fri Dec 17 18:08:05 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 12:08:05 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <41C31C70.2020600@hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <161227075503.23782.13206520263742314581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If you can connect through an affiliated university, you can usually get
online access to these kinds of articles. For example, the universities
here allow internet access at the library where these can be read.

Dean Anderson
South and Central Research Institute

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of rlamb
>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:51 AM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>John Huntington wrote:
>
>> Thbis is from a connected server and is copied from the web site
>>
>> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5704/2028?etoc
>
>The above page is only available to paid subscribers.
>
>rl
>




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Fri Dec 17 17:24:02 2004
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 12:24:02 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <000d01c4e45a$fffff2d0$2930cece@charlie>
Message-ID: <161227075498.23782.18266768523552464846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thbis is from a connected server and is copied from the web site

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5704/2028?etoc

John


>Would somebody please give me the URL for Science article again because I
>could not access it from the original post, for some unknown reason.
>Thanks
>Joanna Kirkpatrick
>
>--------------------------------
>
>
>Wow, I just read the article. Possehl actually SAID that???
>("I don't think his ideas are interesting or viable, and I'm surprised they
>have raised interest").
>I am apalled. I disagree with Steve, as everyone will have noticed by now,
>but his ideas are clearly extremely interesting and not to be taken lightly.
>
>All the best,
>Signe




From a.griffiths at THEOL.RUG.NL  Fri Dec 17 15:40:48 2004
From: a.griffiths at THEOL.RUG.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 16:40:48 +0100
Subject: Hindi geographical names
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20041217071158.032dc570@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227075491.23782.13912153771119790748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here are the few topographical names I am fairly confident about (in
Tokunaga-Fujii code), none of them are in fact Hindi, all are Oriya:


> Barehipani Falls

        ba.rheipaa.ni (if the falls inside Simlipal Tiger Reserve are meant)

> Towns:
>
> Keonjhar

        kendujhara

> Khurda

        khordaa

> Koraput

        koraapu.t

> Parlakhemundi

        (there are 100s of spellings, here is one:) Parlaakimedi


Arlo Griffiths
Institute of Indian Studies
University of Groningen
Oude Boteringestraat 23
9712 GC Groningen
the Netherlands

email: a.griffiths at theol.rug.nl
phone: +31-50-3635587




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Dec 17 22:17:59 2004
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 17:17:59 -0500
Subject: Hindi geographical names
Message-ID: <161227075511.23782.10695692043570153236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur,

Do you or the PGS have access to the current Survey of India maps?  I
believe nowadays they are pretty likely to have diacritics.  The system
goes back to British times. I can't seem to quickly find an account of
what the romanization system is called or what it is.   It was named
after one of the colonial Surveyors General.

The older US Army maps of India, still for sale until fairly recently,
were copies of British era maps.

Is your goal a map with names in Hindi Devanagari, or with a good
transliteration of the local names?

If a romanization, using the SOI romanizations, which are official, has
much to recommend it.  However, looking at the catalog records for some
SOI publications, I suspect that there is a convention of not bothering
to put a macron over final vowels, since it is usual they are long.
Look at our catalog <catalog.loc.gov> and search for the title District
Maps of Assam, India (LCCN 98687088) and observe at the end of the
Incomplete Contents note "Tinsukia."  So maybe you do need the
Devanagari maps.

Have you checked any of them in the index to the Schwartzberg atlas?

The GeoNet Names Server <http://gnswww.nima.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp>
 has some of your places, judging from a few quick sample searches.  It
also supposedly allows the use of Unicode and displays special
characters for diacritics after you download the fonts.  One can also
download separately the names file for each country.  NB it has a
warning about the presence of errors in the Pakistan and Afghanistan
files.  I believe a few of your names are in Pakistan.

Hope this helps.

Allen




Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
of Congress.

>>> karp at UW.EDU.PL 2004-12-17 2:32:09 >>>
Dear List Memebers:

I was asked (by the Polish Geodetical Service) to prepare a list of
Indian
geographical names - with their Polish, Hindi and English versions.
Being unable to locate in Poland any detailed map of India in
Devanagari
characters, I would like to ask for your kind assistance in
determining
the Hindi equivalents (Kyoto transcription, with retroflex consonants)
of
the following geographical names:

Paithan Dam
Aharbal Falls
Barehipani Falls
Nohkalikai Falls
Nohsngithiang Falls
Kynrem Falls
Hogenakal Falls
Gugamal N.P.
Marine N.P.
Neora Valley N.P.
Moiling N.P.
Namdapha N.P.
Balphakram N.P.
Intanki N.P.
Krem Um Lawan Cave
Krem Maw Tynhiang Cave
Borra Cave

Peaks:

Baintha Brakk
Barabar
Batura
Chameringu
Changabang
Chogolisa
Dapha Bum
Dhond
Dapjo Pahar
Falchan Kangri
Gasherbrum
Gurudongmar
Kangto
Kephyaklo
Kokthang
Kolahoi
Kunyang Chhish
Langpo Peak
Lulupo
Lungreng Tlang
Masherbrum
Mathuri
Namprik Phuk
Nunkun
Panchchuli
Pangol kha
Pemikhangchhen
Rakaposhi
Rataban
Richi La
Saramati
Saser Kangri
Satopanh
Shispare
Singarsi Peak
Sonam
Tatakuti
Tent Peak
Tungar

Towns:

Dhamtari
Dhurbi
Dindori
Godda
Gondia
Gumla
Haflong
Harda
Kasargode
Katnio
Keonjhar
Khurda
Koraput
Madikeri
Nongstoin
Orai
Oras
Orraiya
Painavu
Pakur
Parlakhemundi
Pathanamthitta
Perambalur
Rajouri
Reckong Peo
Saiha
Sidhi
Theni
Tinsukia
Tura


Thanking you in advance,

Artur Karp

South Asian Studies Deptt
University of Warsaw
Poland




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Fri Dec 17 23:20:05 2004
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 18:20:05 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <000d01c4e45a$fffff2d0$2930cece@charlie>
Message-ID: <161227075513.23782.13808730737157206130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I have read with great interest the Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel
article and have a couple of questions.

Why has no one compared the to what is to me a very obvious
comparison, Chinese seals?
Seals range in date from Zhou times onto the present and had the
language not been a forerunner of modern Chinese through a process of
continuous development, would have presented very similar problems to
those of the Harappan seals. All inscriptions are very short, one to
maybe eight characters, extremely varied in content, with some 2000
or so recognized as early as the Shang dynasty.  Shang inscriptions,
mostly on oracle bones, are also short but there are thousands of
them sometimes as many as twenty or so on one ox scapula so we do
have longer texts and more diverse texts(in a sense).  However, these
are an artifact of a fortune telling tradition which as is well known
is unique to China. Bronze inscriptions from the Shang are equally
terse often only one or two characters.

If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were intended
a marker of possessions, the very diversity of signifier type seems
to suggest that there were indeed individualized, they would parallel
the Chinese usage almost exactly.

As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient civilizations-
we know for example that the Shang had brushes, a few have been
found, and silk, impressions of which have been found on bronze
vessels which were originally wrapped in the material. Did they write
on silk or bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as I am aware
none has come to light yet. But the assumption is that they probably
did, because their successors did. We simply do not know who the
successors of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.

While certain types of ephemera is predictable, detailed usage is not
so without the finding something such a palm-leaf manuscripts one
cannot say they did exist, but not finding them in an area in which
there virtually no ephemera is being found simply is not a case for
"proving" that longer texts did not exist.

As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be ostracized
from society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known
alphabet.

If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system,  then there
should probably a comparison to a parallel system found on Indic
punch marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi stupa two
(which, by the way, will be on our website in just a few days) or the
auspicious markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi one Toranas.  There are
some survivals from Harappan symbology  on these sites tree chaityas,
for example.

It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel  have left a great
many unexplored comparisons in both languages and in symbol systems,
I know of more that dozen more that have proven to be very
challenging and bear some relationship to the problems that the raise.

Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
How could one even imagine where draw a line?  Ho Ping-ti in his
Cradle of the East
found the clearly made potter's marks on the bottom of 6000 before
present Yang Shao culture to be at a  minimum "proto-writing." The
Chinese wrote with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to have
done. Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay. I for one will
continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of belongings
and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way of literature
whether it is said using pictorial glyphs, logographic glyphs,
ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs (even with ligatures).

Best of Holidays to all

John




From jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE  Fri Dec 17 18:55:18 2004
From: jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE (John Peterson)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 19:55:18 +0100
Subject: Hindi geographical names
In-Reply-To: <05E5C454-5042-11D9-9604-000D93515A04@theol.rug.nl>
Message-ID: <161227075508.23782.3473905441774745435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The only one I noticed off-hand was Gumla, which is practically the same
in Hindi: gumlaa (if it's the one in Jharkhand that you mean).

Hope it helps anyway!

John


-- 
John Peterson
FB 7, Sprachwissenschaft
Universit?t Osnabr?ck
D-49069 Osnabr?ck
Germany
Telephone: (+49) (0)541-969 4252
Telefax: (+49) (0)541-969 4256
Homepage: http://www.SouthAsiaBibliography.de/




From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET  Sat Dec 18 03:15:25 2004
From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 04 22:15:25 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <p06010210bde90960266d@[128.146.41.35]>
Message-ID: <161227075515.23782.8702453995933465512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

I post a message from Steve Farmer, who is not a member of this list, but
who has been receiving messages from list members.  I would recommend to the
list managers that it would be a good idea to subscribe him to the list, so
that list members can discuss his thesis with them.

Best wishes,

George Thompson
.....................

Dear George,

I just noted a thread starting on the old Indology List. I never
bothered to join the List after the old one died in late 2000. But now
I've answered John Huntington's post on it, through him (whom I don't
know). Would you or someone else be willing to post it there? I don't
mind going on the List, but petitioning for permission to be on Lists
isn't my style.

Here's the post.

Dear John,

Unfortunately, I never bothered to join the Indology List after the old
List faded away and real discussion ended on it, back in late 2000 or
early 2001, I guess. So I can't answer your questions on the List. I'm
really busy right now, but I wouldn't mind talking about these issues
on the List, but petitioning first to a committee to join isn't my
style.

So please repost this to the List for me. It is written in haste, but
my points are clear. I'm willing to come onto the List if invited if a
discussion develops.

Tell Signe that Possehl objects because, obviously, we burn him in our
paper! (Look at footnote 5, e.g.)

To your questions:

You write:

> If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were intended a
> marker of possessions, the very diversity of signifier type seems to
> suggest that there were indeed individualized, they would parallel the
> Chinese usage almost exactly.

We don't claim that they were markers of possession, John. We draw much
more elaborate parallels with Near Eastern symbol systems. On the
'markers of possession' idea, see my last comment in this post.

> As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient civilizations-
> we know for example that the Shang had brushes, a few have been found,
> and silk, impressions of which have been found on bronze vessels which
> were originally wrapped in the material. Did they write on silk or
> bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has
> come to light yet. But the assumption is that they probably did,
> because their successors did. We simply do not know who the successors
> of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.

We deal with 'missing markers' of manuscript production at length. We
investigated the Shang dynasty materials in some depth when researching
that section. (One of my regular collaborators, BTW, is John Henderson,
the specialist on early China.) In any event, rejection of the
"perishable manuscript thesis" is key to our work. The evidence is
strong that they didn't write on perishable materials.

> As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
> pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be ostracized from
> society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known alphabet.

Not just the Greeks but everyone in the Mediterranean region. And the
texts were quite long. We deal with this at length in our paper, pp. 22
ff.

> If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system, then there
> should probably a comparison to a parallel system found on Indic punch
> marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi stupa two (which, by
> the way, will be on our website in just a few days) or the auspicious
> markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi one Toranas. There are some
> survivals from Harappan symbology on these sites tree chaityas, for
> example.

We've looked at this extensively, although we don't deal with this in
the paper. We don't find any evidence of such survivals -- visual
similarities are subjective and often deceptive -- but we are willing
to discuss this issue further. You are talking about over a
millennium-long gulf here, of course. Punch mark coins do not have any
clear parallels with known Indus signs, or at least not any that aren't
fortuitous.

> It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel have left a great many
> unexplored comparisons in both languages and in symbol systems, I know
> of more that dozen more that have proven to be very challenging

Well, John, there are what -- 6000 or so languages? And several hundred
scripts? A few specifics here would be appreciated. :^) We can't
discuss them all.

> Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
> itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
> the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
> How could one even imagine where draw a line?

One way to draw a line is to talk about semantic range. Over 50% of the
Indus corpus is made up of 20 signs. This includes signs on at least a
dozen different types of inscriptions -- not just on seals. How wide
would that semantic range be?  Compare this with Shang oracle bones, if
you want. As I often point out, the "Harappan Wisemen" would have a
vocabulary using all known Indus symbols (300-400 by most counts) much
less than Koko the Signing Gorilla or the average 3-year-old child on
this model. Better leave those Harappan Wisemen with their
nonlinguistic signs. :^) (Or embrace Koko: http://www.koko.org/ ) (Koko
reportedly is capable of rebus signing too, but I suspect Penny may
have something to do with that. I live in the Santa Cruz mountains near
Koko. I can hear her beating her chest in the morning, unprompted by
Penny.)

> Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made potter's
> marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao culture to be at
> a minimum "proto-writing."

Garbage science, much derided among Sinologists. I follow that field
closely. There have also been similar claims in the last year, also
similarly and rightly derided.

> The Chinese wrote with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to
> have done. Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay. I for one
> will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
> belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way of
> literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs, logographic
> glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs (even with >
> ligatures).

Besides the seals there were over a dozen different types of objects
that carried symbols. The idea that they were all identity markers can
be easily falsified, although it does take a longer discussion. But NB:
the usual claim is that this was a fully literate society, and whatever
you think of the symbols, I think Witzel, Sproat, and Farmer have
killed off that idea once and for all.

Best,
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of John
Huntington
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 6:20 PM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"


Dear Colleagues,

I have read with great interest the Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel
article and have a couple of questions.

Why has no one compared the to what is to me a very obvious
comparison, Chinese seals?
Seals range in date from Zhou times onto the present and had the
language not been a forerunner of modern Chinese through a process of
continuous development, would have presented very similar problems to
those of the Harappan seals. All inscriptions are very short, one to
maybe eight characters, extremely varied in content, with some 2000
or so recognized as early as the Shang dynasty.  Shang inscriptions,
mostly on oracle bones, are also short but there are thousands of
them sometimes as many as twenty or so on one ox scapula so we do
have longer texts and more diverse texts(in a sense).  However, these
are an artifact of a fortune telling tradition which as is well known
is unique to China. Bronze inscriptions from the Shang are equally
terse often only one or two characters.

If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were intended
a marker of possessions, the very diversity of signifier type seems
to suggest that there were indeed individualized, they would parallel
the Chinese usage almost exactly.

As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient civilizations-
we know for example that the Shang had brushes, a few have been
found, and silk, impressions of which have been found on bronze
vessels which were originally wrapped in the material. Did they write
on silk or bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as I am aware
none has come to light yet. But the assumption is that they probably
did, because their successors did. We simply do not know who the
successors of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.

While certain types of ephemera is predictable, detailed usage is not
so without the finding something such a palm-leaf manuscripts one
cannot say they did exist, but not finding them in an area in which
there virtually no ephemera is being found simply is not a case for
"proving" that longer texts did not exist.

As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be ostracized
from society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known
alphabet.

If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system,  then there
should probably a comparison to a parallel system found on Indic
punch marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi stupa two
(which, by the way, will be on our website in just a few days) or the
auspicious markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi one Toranas.  There are
some survivals from Harappan symbology  on these sites tree chaityas,
for example.

It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel  have left a great
many unexplored comparisons in both languages and in symbol systems,
I know of more that dozen more that have proven to be very
challenging and bear some relationship to the problems that the raise.

Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
How could one even imagine where draw a line?  Ho Ping-ti in his
Cradle of the East
found the clearly made potter's marks on the bottom of 6000 before
present Yang Shao culture to be at a  minimum "proto-writing." The
Chinese wrote with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to have
done. Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay. I for one will
continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of belongings
and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way of literature
whether it is said using pictorial glyphs, logographic glyphs,
ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs (even with ligatures).

Best of Holidays to all

John




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Sun Dec 19 03:17:22 2004
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 04 03:17:22 +0000
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075518.23782.9558480048352246335.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Huntington wrote:

> However, these are an artifact of a fortune telling tradition
It is good to see that the recent Farmer et al article is generating
interest and debate from a wide range of scholars.  Nevertheless, it seems
somewhat trivializing to characterize one of the central aspects of Shang
state ritual in this manner.  Moreover, the divinatory purpose may not have
been quite as straightforward as popularly assumed -- see Sarah Allen's "The
Shape of the Turtle" (SUNY 1991) pp112-123.  She hypothesizes that the aim
of the divination was not to foretell the future as popularly supposed to
control it by influencing divine forces with quantified sacrifices.

> Did they write on silk or bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as
> I am aware none has come to light yet. But the assumption
> is that they probably did, because their successors did.
More than that, we know that the Shang people used the precursor characters
of *ce* (an assembled scroll of bamboo strips) and *dian* (a bamboo script
scroll placed on a table, later = a volume etc) and others which indicate
scribal activities.  Thus even if no samples have survived, we have
secondary evidence that writing was extensively, though perhaps not widely,
used.  These are the kind of secondary markers associated with writing that
are completely missing from the Harappan symbol system, which Farmer et al
claim proves the non-existence of any extensive "literature" in the IVC.

> As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
> pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be ostracized
> from society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known
> alphabet.
If you re-read Farmer et al carefully, you will find that all the putative
ostraca were inscribed before the pot was broken (with one dubious
exception) contra the Greek etc practice.

> Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
> itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
> the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
> How could one even imagine where draw a line?  Ho Ping-ti in his
> Cradle of the East found the clearly made potter's marks on the bottom of
> 6000 before present Yang Shao culture to be at a  minimum
> "proto-writing."
But many other scholars are more cautious -- as far as I know, the consensus
seems to be that they are merely identifying marks used by the potters.
Their form and number are very limited, around 100 only, and show no
development from their use c4700BCE down to the end of the Zhou period. On
the other hand, Shang pottery has been found with characters identical to
those on the oracle-bones.  It would therefore seem that the pottery marks
have no connection with the development of true writing in China.  Also see
John DeFrancis "Chinese Prehistoric Symbols and American Proofreaders
Marks", Journal of Chinese Linguistics 19.1 116-121 (1991).

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Sun Dec 19 22:30:11 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 04 16:30:11 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKKDFGLJBBKJBLEMCIEBPDMAA.gthomgt@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <161227075520.23782.4940759064984442183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Although I personally welcome spirited discussion on this list... given
the already contentious nature of the debate about the recent
Farmer-Witzel-Sproat theory and its connection with other topics that
have created controversy on this list in the past, it might be better to
consider the opinions of those who like the peaceful environment here
and take discussion of this thesis to another list like the yahoo
indology list where it has been posted as:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4841?threaded=1 by Steve
Farmer

And
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4847?threaded=1 by
Michael Witzel.

Or perhaps another venue.

Best,

Dean Anderson

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>George Thompson
>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 9:15 PM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>Dear List,
>
>I post a message from Steve Farmer, who is not a member of
>this list, but who has been receiving messages from list
>members.  I would recommend to the list managers that it would
>be a good idea to subscribe him to the list, so that list
>members can discuss his thesis with them.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>George Thompson
>.....................
>
>Dear George,
>
>I just noted a thread starting on the old Indology List. I
>never bothered to join the List after the old one died in late
>2000. But now I've answered John Huntington's post on it,
>through him (whom I don't know). Would you or someone else be
>willing to post it there? I don't mind going on the List, but
>petitioning for permission to be on Lists isn't my style.
>
>Here's the post.
>
>Dear John,
>
>Unfortunately, I never bothered to join the Indology List
>after the old List faded away and real discussion ended on it,
>back in late 2000 or early 2001, I guess. So I can't answer
>your questions on the List. I'm really busy right now, but I
>wouldn't mind talking about these issues on the List, but
>petitioning first to a committee to join isn't my style.
>
>So please repost this to the List for me. It is written in
>haste, but my points are clear. I'm willing to come onto the
>List if invited if a discussion develops.
>
>Tell Signe that Possehl objects because, obviously, we burn
>him in our paper! (Look at footnote 5, e.g.)
>
>To your questions:
>
>You write:
>
>> If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were
>intended a
>> marker of possessions, the very diversity of signifier type seems to
>> suggest that there were indeed individualized, they would
>parallel the
>> Chinese usage almost exactly.
>
>We don't claim that they were markers of possession, John. We
>draw much more elaborate parallels with Near Eastern symbol
>systems. On the 'markers of possession' idea, see my last
>comment in this post.
>
>> As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient
>civilizations-
>> we know for example that the Shang had brushes, a few have
>been found,
>> and silk, impressions of which have been found on bronze
>vessels which
>> were originally wrapped in the material. Did they write on silk or
>> bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has
>> come to light yet. But the assumption is that they probably did,
>> because their successors did. We simply do not know who the
>successors
>> of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.
>
>We deal with 'missing markers' of manuscript production at
>length. We investigated the Shang dynasty materials in some
>depth when researching that section. (One of my regular
>collaborators, BTW, is John Henderson, the specialist on early
>China.) In any event, rejection of the "perishable manuscript
>thesis" is key to our work. The evidence is strong that they
>didn't write on perishable materials.
>
>> As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
>> pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be
>ostracized from
>> society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known alphabet.
>
>Not just the Greeks but everyone in the Mediterranean region.
>And the texts were quite long. We deal with this at length in
>our paper, pp. 22 ff.
>
>> If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system, then there
>> should probably a comparison to a parallel system found on
>Indic punch
>> marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi stupa two (which, by
>> the way, will be on our website in just a few days) or the
>auspicious
>> markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi one Toranas. There are some
>> survivals from Harappan symbology on these sites tree chaityas, for
>> example.
>
>We've looked at this extensively, although we don't deal with
>this in the paper. We don't find any evidence of such
>survivals -- visual similarities are subjective and often
>deceptive -- but we are willing to discuss this issue further.
>You are talking about over a millennium-long gulf here, of
>course. Punch mark coins do not have any clear parallels with
>known Indus signs, or at least not any that aren't fortuitous.
>
>> It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel have left a
>great many
>> unexplored comparisons in both languages and in symbol
>systems, I know
>> of more that dozen more that have proven to be very challenging
>
>Well, John, there are what -- 6000 or so languages? And
>several hundred scripts? A few specifics here would be
>appreciated. :^) We can't discuss them all.
>
>> Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
>> itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
>> the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
>> How could one even imagine where draw a line?
>
>One way to draw a line is to talk about semantic range. Over
>50% of the Indus corpus is made up of 20 signs. This includes
>signs on at least a dozen different types of inscriptions --
>not just on seals. How wide would that semantic range be?
>Compare this with Shang oracle bones, if you want. As I often
>point out, the "Harappan Wisemen" would have a vocabulary
>using all known Indus symbols (300-400 by most counts) much
>less than Koko the Signing Gorilla or the average 3-year-old
>child on this model. Better leave those Harappan Wisemen with
>their nonlinguistic signs. :^) (Or embrace Koko:
>http://www.koko.org/ ) (Koko reportedly is capable of rebus
>signing too, but I suspect Penny may have something to do with
>that. I live in the Santa Cruz mountains near Koko. I can hear
>her beating her chest in the morning, unprompted by
>Penny.)
>
>> Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made potter's
>> marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao culture
>to be at
>> a minimum "proto-writing."
>
>Garbage science, much derided among Sinologists. I follow that
>field closely. There have also been similar claims in the last
>year, also similarly and rightly derided.
>
>> The Chinese wrote with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to
>> have done. Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay.
>I for one
>> will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
>> belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way of
>> literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs, logographic
>> glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs (even with >
>> ligatures).
>
>Besides the seals there were over a dozen different types of
>objects that carried symbols. The idea that they were all
>identity markers can be easily falsified, although it does
>take a longer discussion. But NB: the usual claim is that this
>was a fully literate society, and whatever you think of the
>symbols, I think Witzel, Sproat, and Farmer have killed off
>that idea once and for all.
>
>Best,
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
>John Huntington
>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 6:20 PM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>I have read with great interest the Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel
>article and have a couple of questions.
>
>Why has no one compared the to what is to me a very obvious
>comparison, Chinese seals? Seals range in date from Zhou times
>onto the present and had the language not been a forerunner of
>modern Chinese through a process of continuous development,
>would have presented very similar problems to those of the
>Harappan seals. All inscriptions are very short, one to maybe
>eight characters, extremely varied in content, with some 2000
>or so recognized as early as the Shang dynasty.  Shang
>inscriptions, mostly on oracle bones, are also short but there
>are thousands of them sometimes as many as twenty or so on one
>ox scapula so we do have longer texts and more diverse
>texts(in a sense).  However, these are an artifact of a
>fortune telling tradition which as is well known is unique to
>China. Bronze inscriptions from the Shang are equally terse
>often only one or two characters.
>
>If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were
>intended a marker of possessions, the very diversity of
>signifier type seems to suggest that there were indeed
>individualized, they would parallel the Chinese usage almost exactly.
>
>As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient
>civilizations- we know for example that the Shang had brushes,
>a few have been found, and silk, impressions of which have
>been found on bronze vessels which were originally wrapped in
>the material. Did they write on silk or bamboo tallys or other
>such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has come to light
>yet. But the assumption is that they probably did, because
>their successors did. We simply do not know who the successors
>of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.
>
>While certain types of ephemera is predictable, detailed usage
>is not so without the finding something such a palm-leaf
>manuscripts one cannot say they did exist, but not finding
>them in an area in which there virtually no ephemera is being
>found simply is not a case for "proving" that longer texts did
>not exist.
>
>As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks
>used pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be
>ostracized from society. Also short inscriptions but, of
>course, in a known alphabet.
>
>If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system,  then
>there should probably a comparison to a parallel system found
>on Indic punch marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi
>stupa two (which, by the way, will be on our website in just a
>few days) or the auspicious markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi
>one Toranas.  There are some survivals from Harappan symbology
> on these sites tree chaityas, for example.
>
>It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel  have left a
>great many unexplored comparisons in both languages and in
>symbol systems, I know of more that dozen more that have
>proven to be very challenging and bear some relationship to
>the problems that the raise.
>
>Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language
>is itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition
>between the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to
>the ideographic. How could one even imagine where draw a line?
> Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made
>potter's marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao
>culture to be at a  minimum "proto-writing." The Chinese wrote
>with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to have done.
>Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay. I for one
>will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
>belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way
>of literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs,
>logographic glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs
>(even with ligatures).
>
>Best of Holidays to all
>
>John
>




From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET  Mon Dec 20 01:52:18 2004
From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 04 20:52:18 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <000001c4e61a$4ed2c2f0$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075522.23782.8374524601246137277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, I don't care at all what the list managers decide to do about this
matter, although other list members may indeed care.

I myself am deeply involved in the discussions of the IVC sign system [not a
script at all as far as anyone can tell].  I do not rely on this list for
information on this issue.  It just occurs to me that list members who may
want to know more about this matter might be better informed by having
access to the actual debate.

But if no one on this list cares about this, well then, I will not disturb
your peace.

Best,

George Thompson

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Dean
Anderson
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 5:30 PM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"


Although I personally welcome spirited discussion on this list... given
the already contentious nature of the debate about the recent
Farmer-Witzel-Sproat theory and its connection with other topics that
have created controversy on this list in the past, it might be better to
consider the opinions of those who like the peaceful environment here
and take discussion of this thesis to another list like the yahoo
indology list where it has been posted as:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4841?threaded=1 by Steve
Farmer

And
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4847?threaded=1 by
Michael Witzel.

Or perhaps another venue.

Best,

Dean Anderson

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>George Thompson
>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 9:15 PM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>Dear List,
>
>I post a message from Steve Farmer, who is not a member of
>this list, but who has been receiving messages from list
>members.  I would recommend to the list managers that it would
>be a good idea to subscribe him to the list, so that list
>members can discuss his thesis with them.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>George Thompson
>.....................
>
>Dear George,
>
>I just noted a thread starting on the old Indology List. I
>never bothered to join the List after the old one died in late
>2000. But now I've answered John Huntington's post on it,
>through him (whom I don't know). Would you or someone else be
>willing to post it there? I don't mind going on the List, but
>petitioning for permission to be on Lists isn't my style.
>
>Here's the post.
>
>Dear John,
>
>Unfortunately, I never bothered to join the Indology List
>after the old List faded away and real discussion ended on it,
>back in late 2000 or early 2001, I guess. So I can't answer
>your questions on the List. I'm really busy right now, but I
>wouldn't mind talking about these issues on the List, but
>petitioning first to a committee to join isn't my style.
>
>So please repost this to the List for me. It is written in
>haste, but my points are clear. I'm willing to come onto the
>List if invited if a discussion develops.
>
>Tell Signe that Possehl objects because, obviously, we burn
>him in our paper! (Look at footnote 5, e.g.)
>
>To your questions:
>
>You write:
>
>> If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were
>intended a
>> marker of possessions, the very diversity of signifier type seems to
>> suggest that there were indeed individualized, they would
>parallel the
>> Chinese usage almost exactly.
>
>We don't claim that they were markers of possession, John. We
>draw much more elaborate parallels with Near Eastern symbol
>systems. On the 'markers of possession' idea, see my last
>comment in this post.
>
>> As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient
>civilizations-
>> we know for example that the Shang had brushes, a few have
>been found,
>> and silk, impressions of which have been found on bronze
>vessels which
>> were originally wrapped in the material. Did they write on silk or
>> bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has
>> come to light yet. But the assumption is that they probably did,
>> because their successors did. We simply do not know who the
>successors
>> of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.
>
>We deal with 'missing markers' of manuscript production at
>length. We investigated the Shang dynasty materials in some
>depth when researching that section. (One of my regular
>collaborators, BTW, is John Henderson, the specialist on early
>China.) In any event, rejection of the "perishable manuscript
>thesis" is key to our work. The evidence is strong that they
>didn't write on perishable materials.
>
>> As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
>> pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be
>ostracized from
>> society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known alphabet.
>
>Not just the Greeks but everyone in the Mediterranean region.
>And the texts were quite long. We deal with this at length in
>our paper, pp. 22 ff.
>
>> If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system, then there
>> should probably a comparison to a parallel system found on
>Indic punch
>> marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi stupa two (which, by
>> the way, will be on our website in just a few days) or the
>auspicious
>> markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi one Toranas. There are some
>> survivals from Harappan symbology on these sites tree chaityas, for
>> example.
>
>We've looked at this extensively, although we don't deal with
>this in the paper. We don't find any evidence of such
>survivals -- visual similarities are subjective and often
>deceptive -- but we are willing to discuss this issue further.
>You are talking about over a millennium-long gulf here, of
>course. Punch mark coins do not have any clear parallels with
>known Indus signs, or at least not any that aren't fortuitous.
>
>> It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel have left a
>great many
>> unexplored comparisons in both languages and in symbol
>systems, I know
>> of more that dozen more that have proven to be very challenging
>
>Well, John, there are what -- 6000 or so languages? And
>several hundred scripts? A few specifics here would be
>appreciated. :^) We can't discuss them all.
>
>> Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
>> itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
>> the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
>> How could one even imagine where draw a line?
>
>One way to draw a line is to talk about semantic range. Over
>50% of the Indus corpus is made up of 20 signs. This includes
>signs on at least a dozen different types of inscriptions --
>not just on seals. How wide would that semantic range be?
>Compare this with Shang oracle bones, if you want. As I often
>point out, the "Harappan Wisemen" would have a vocabulary
>using all known Indus symbols (300-400 by most counts) much
>less than Koko the Signing Gorilla or the average 3-year-old
>child on this model. Better leave those Harappan Wisemen with
>their nonlinguistic signs. :^) (Or embrace Koko:
>http://www.koko.org/ ) (Koko reportedly is capable of rebus
>signing too, but I suspect Penny may have something to do with
>that. I live in the Santa Cruz mountains near Koko. I can hear
>her beating her chest in the morning, unprompted by
>Penny.)
>
>> Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made potter's
>> marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao culture
>to be at
>> a minimum "proto-writing."
>
>Garbage science, much derided among Sinologists. I follow that
>field closely. There have also been similar claims in the last
>year, also similarly and rightly derided.
>
>> The Chinese wrote with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to
>> have done. Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay.
>I for one
>> will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
>> belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way of
>> literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs, logographic
>> glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs (even with >
>> ligatures).
>
>Besides the seals there were over a dozen different types of
>objects that carried symbols. The idea that they were all
>identity markers can be easily falsified, although it does
>take a longer discussion. But NB: the usual claim is that this
>was a fully literate society, and whatever you think of the
>symbols, I think Witzel, Sproat, and Farmer have killed off
>that idea once and for all.
>
>Best,
>Steve
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
>John Huntington
>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 6:20 PM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>I have read with great interest the Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel
>article and have a couple of questions.
>
>Why has no one compared the to what is to me a very obvious
>comparison, Chinese seals? Seals range in date from Zhou times
>onto the present and had the language not been a forerunner of
>modern Chinese through a process of continuous development,
>would have presented very similar problems to those of the
>Harappan seals. All inscriptions are very short, one to maybe
>eight characters, extremely varied in content, with some 2000
>or so recognized as early as the Shang dynasty.  Shang
>inscriptions, mostly on oracle bones, are also short but there
>are thousands of them sometimes as many as twenty or so on one
>ox scapula so we do have longer texts and more diverse
>texts(in a sense).  However, these are an artifact of a
>fortune telling tradition which as is well known is unique to
>China. Bronze inscriptions from the Shang are equally terse
>often only one or two characters.
>
>If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were
>intended a marker of possessions, the very diversity of
>signifier type seems to suggest that there were indeed
>individualized, they would parallel the Chinese usage almost exactly.
>
>As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient
>civilizations- we know for example that the Shang had brushes,
>a few have been found, and silk, impressions of which have
>been found on bronze vessels which were originally wrapped in
>the material. Did they write on silk or bamboo tallys or other
>such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has come to light
>yet. But the assumption is that they probably did, because
>their successors did. We simply do not know who the successors
>of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.
>
>While certain types of ephemera is predictable, detailed usage
>is not so without the finding something such a palm-leaf
>manuscripts one cannot say they did exist, but not finding
>them in an area in which there virtually no ephemera is being
>found simply is not a case for "proving" that longer texts did
>not exist.
>
>As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks
>used pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be
>ostracized from society. Also short inscriptions but, of
>course, in a known alphabet.
>
>If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system,  then
>there should probably a comparison to a parallel system found
>on Indic punch marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi
>stupa two (which, by the way, will be on our website in just a
>few days) or the auspicious markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi
>one Toranas.  There are some survivals from Harappan symbology
> on these sites tree chaityas, for example.
>
>It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel  have left a
>great many unexplored comparisons in both languages and in
>symbol systems, I know of more that dozen more that have
>proven to be very challenging and bear some relationship to
>the problems that the raise.
>
>Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language
>is itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition
>between the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to
>the ideographic. How could one even imagine where draw a line?
> Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made
>potter's marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao
>culture to be at a  minimum "proto-writing." The Chinese wrote
>with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to have done.
>Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay. I for one
>will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
>belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way
>of literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs,
>logographic glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs
>(even with ligatures).
>
>Best of Holidays to all
>
>John
>




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Mon Dec 20 04:56:34 2004
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 04 21:56:34 -0700
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075525.23782.4871377590995834094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well--I certianly care and wouldd like to see the discussion continued here.
However, if not I can always go to the other list.
Joanna Kirkpatrick
=========================
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" <gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"


> Well, I don't care at all what the list managers decide to do about this
> matter, although other list members may indeed care.
>
> I myself am deeply involved in the discussions of the IVC sign system [not
a
> script at all as far as anyone can tell].  I do not rely on this list for
> information on this issue.  It just occurs to me that list members who may
> want to know more about this matter might be better informed by having
> access to the actual debate.
>
> But if no one on this list cares about this, well then, I will not disturb
> your peace.
>
> Best,
>
> George Thompson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Dean
> Anderson
> Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 5:30 PM
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
> Although I personally welcome spirited discussion on this list... given
> the already contentious nature of the debate about the recent
> Farmer-Witzel-Sproat theory and its connection with other topics that
> have created controversy on this list in the past, it might be better to
> consider the opinions of those who like the peaceful environment here
> and take discussion of this thesis to another list like the yahoo
> indology list where it has been posted as:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4841?threaded=1 by Steve
> Farmer
>
> And
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/INDOLOGY/message/4847?threaded=1 by
> Michael Witzel.
>
> Or perhaps another venue.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
> >George Thompson
> >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 9:15 PM
> >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> >Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
> >
> >
> >Dear List,
> >
> >I post a message from Steve Farmer, who is not a member of
> >this list, but who has been receiving messages from list
> >members.  I would recommend to the list managers that it would
> >be a good idea to subscribe him to the list, so that list
> >members can discuss his thesis with them.
> >
> >Best wishes,
> >
> >George Thompson
> >.....................
> >
> >Dear George,
> >
> >I just noted a thread starting on the old Indology List. I
> >never bothered to join the List after the old one died in late
> >2000. But now I've answered John Huntington's post on it,
> >through him (whom I don't know). Would you or someone else be
> >willing to post it there? I don't mind going on the List, but
> >petitioning for permission to be on Lists isn't my style.
> >
> >Here's the post.
> >
> >Dear John,
> >
> >Unfortunately, I never bothered to join the Indology List
> >after the old List faded away and real discussion ended on it,
> >back in late 2000 or early 2001, I guess. So I can't answer
> >your questions on the List. I'm really busy right now, but I
> >wouldn't mind talking about these issues on the List, but
> >petitioning first to a committee to join isn't my style.
> >
> >So please repost this to the List for me. It is written in
> >haste, but my points are clear. I'm willing to come onto the
> >List if invited if a discussion develops.
> >
> >Tell Signe that Possehl objects because, obviously, we burn
> >him in our paper! (Look at footnote 5, e.g.)
> >
> >To your questions:
> >
> >You write:
> >
> >> If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were
> >intended a
> >> marker of possessions, the very diversity of signifier type seems to
> >> suggest that there were indeed individualized, they would
> >parallel the
> >> Chinese usage almost exactly.
> >
> >We don't claim that they were markers of possession, John. We
> >draw much more elaborate parallels with Near Eastern symbol
> >systems. On the 'markers of possession' idea, see my last
> >comment in this post.
> >
> >> As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient
> >civilizations-
> >> we know for example that the Shang had brushes, a few have
> >been found,
> >> and silk, impressions of which have been found on bronze
> >vessels which
> >> were originally wrapped in the material. Did they write on silk or
> >> bamboo tallys or other such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has
> >> come to light yet. But the assumption is that they probably did,
> >> because their successors did. We simply do not know who the
> >successors
> >> of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.
> >
> >We deal with 'missing markers' of manuscript production at
> >length. We investigated the Shang dynasty materials in some
> >depth when researching that section. (One of my regular
> >collaborators, BTW, is John Henderson, the specialist on early
> >China.) In any event, rejection of the "perishable manuscript
> >thesis" is key to our work. The evidence is strong that they
> >didn't write on perishable materials.
> >
> >> As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks used
> >> pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be
> >ostracized from
> >> society. Also short inscriptions but, of course, in a known alphabet.
> >
> >Not just the Greeks but everyone in the Mediterranean region.
> >And the texts were quite long. We deal with this at length in
> >our paper, pp. 22 ff.
> >
> >> If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system, then there
> >> should probably a comparison to a parallel system found on
> >Indic punch
> >> marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi stupa two (which, by
> >> the way, will be on our website in just a few days) or the
> >auspicious
> >> markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi one Toranas. There are some
> >> survivals from Harappan symbology on these sites tree chaityas, for
> >> example.
> >
> >We've looked at this extensively, although we don't deal with
> >this in the paper. We don't find any evidence of such
> >survivals -- visual similarities are subjective and often
> >deceptive -- but we are willing to discuss this issue further.
> >You are talking about over a millennium-long gulf here, of
> >course. Punch mark coins do not have any clear parallels with
> >known Indus signs, or at least not any that aren't fortuitous.
> >
> >> It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel have left a
> >great many
> >> unexplored comparisons in both languages and in symbol
> >systems, I know
> >> of more that dozen more that have proven to be very challenging
> >
> >Well, John, there are what -- 6000 or so languages? And
> >several hundred scripts? A few specifics here would be
> >appreciated. :^) We can't discuss them all.
> >
> >> Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language is
> >> itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition between
> >> the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to the ideographic.
> >> How could one even imagine where draw a line?
> >
> >One way to draw a line is to talk about semantic range. Over
> >50% of the Indus corpus is made up of 20 signs. This includes
> >signs on at least a dozen different types of inscriptions --
> >not just on seals. How wide would that semantic range be?
> >Compare this with Shang oracle bones, if you want. As I often
> >point out, the "Harappan Wisemen" would have a vocabulary
> >using all known Indus symbols (300-400 by most counts) much
> >less than Koko the Signing Gorilla or the average 3-year-old
> >child on this model. Better leave those Harappan Wisemen with
> >their nonlinguistic signs. :^) (Or embrace Koko:
> >http://www.koko.org/ ) (Koko reportedly is capable of rebus
> >signing too, but I suspect Penny may have something to do with
> >that. I live in the Santa Cruz mountains near Koko. I can hear
> >her beating her chest in the morning, unprompted by
> >Penny.)
> >
> >> Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made potter's
> >> marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao culture
> >to be at
> >> a minimum "proto-writing."
> >
> >Garbage science, much derided among Sinologists. I follow that
> >field closely. There have also been similar claims in the last
> >year, also similarly and rightly derided.
> >
> >> The Chinese wrote with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to
> >> have done. Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay.
> >I for one
> >> will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
> >> belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way of
> >> literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs, logographic
> >> glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs (even with >
> >> ligatures).
> >
> >Besides the seals there were over a dozen different types of
> >objects that carried symbols. The idea that they were all
> >identity markers can be easily falsified, although it does
> >take a longer discussion. But NB: the usual claim is that this
> >was a fully literate society, and whatever you think of the
> >symbols, I think Witzel, Sproat, and Farmer have killed off
> >that idea once and for all.
> >
> >Best,
> >Steve
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> >John Huntington
> >Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 6:20 PM
> >To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> >Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
> >
> >
> >Dear Colleagues,
> >
> >I have read with great interest the Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel
> >article and have a couple of questions.
> >
> >Why has no one compared the to what is to me a very obvious
> >comparison, Chinese seals? Seals range in date from Zhou times
> >onto the present and had the language not been a forerunner of
> >modern Chinese through a process of continuous development,
> >would have presented very similar problems to those of the
> >Harappan seals. All inscriptions are very short, one to maybe
> >eight characters, extremely varied in content, with some 2000
> >or so recognized as early as the Shang dynasty.  Shang
> >inscriptions, mostly on oracle bones, are also short but there
> >are thousands of them sometimes as many as twenty or so on one
> >ox scapula so we do have longer texts and more diverse
> >texts(in a sense).  However, these are an artifact of a
> >fortune telling tradition which as is well known is unique to
> >China. Bronze inscriptions from the Shang are equally terse
> >often only one or two characters.
> >
> >If as seems to be the case Harappan civilization seals were
> >intended a marker of possessions, the very diversity of
> >signifier type seems to suggest that there were indeed
> >individualized, they would parallel the Chinese usage almost exactly.
> >
> >As for ephemera and the lack there of for most ancient
> >civilizations- we know for example that the Shang had brushes,
> >a few have been found, and silk, impressions of which have
> >been found on bronze vessels which were originally wrapped in
> >the material. Did they write on silk or bamboo tallys or other
> >such ephemera, as far as I am aware none has come to light
> >yet. But the assumption is that they probably did, because
> >their successors did. We simply do not know who the successors
> >of the Harappans were so there can be no such assumption.
> >
> >While certain types of ephemera is predictable, detailed usage
> >is not so without the finding something such a palm-leaf
> >manuscripts one cannot say they did exist, but not finding
> >them in an area in which there virtually no ephemera is being
> >found simply is not a case for "proving" that longer texts did
> >not exist.
> >
> >As for the inscribed shards, it is well known that the Greeks
> >used pottery shards to mark with the names of persons to be
> >ostracized from society. Also short inscriptions but, of
> >course, in a known alphabet.
> >
> >If the symbols are part of a symbolic notations system,  then
> >there should probably a comparison to a parallel system found
> >on Indic punch marked an tribal coins of the symbols on Sanchi
> >stupa two (which, by the way, will be on our website in just a
> >few days) or the auspicious markings on the Bharhut and Sanchi
> >one Toranas.  There are some survivals from Harappan symbology
> > on these sites tree chaityas, for example.
> >
> >It seems to me that Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel  have left a
> >great many unexplored comparisons in both languages and in
> >symbol systems, I know of more that dozen more that have
> >proven to be very challenging and bear some relationship to
> >the problems that the raise.
> >
> >Indeed the line between a symbol system and a written language
> >is itself a variety of shades of gray, think of the transition
> >between the Chinese pictorial glyph, to the logographic, to
> >the ideographic. How could one even imagine where draw a line?
> > Ho Ping-ti in his Cradle of the East found the clearly made
> >potter's marks on the bottom of 6000 before present Yang Shao
> >culture to be at a  minimum "proto-writing." The Chinese wrote
> >with sharp tools just as the Harappans appear to have done.
> >Babylonians wrote with sharp sticks in wet clay. I for one
> >will continue to think of the Harappan seals as identifiers of
> >belongings and, "this belongs to Charlie," not much in the way
> >of literature whether it is said using pictorial glyphs,
> >logographic glyphs, ideographic glyphs, or alphabetic glyphs
> >(even with ligatures).
> >
> >Best of Holidays to all
> >
> >John
> >
>




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Mon Dec 20 05:02:47 2004
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 06:02:47 +0100
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKKDFGLJBBKJBLEMCCEDDDMAA.gthomgt@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <161227075527.23782.12328184213644401234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am one of those list members who do want to know more about this matter
and would like to have access to the ongoing debate on the status of the IVC
sign system.

After all, what's more Indology than this?

Best,

Artur Karp


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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Mon Dec 20 07:16:19 2004
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 08:16:19 +0100
Subject: Hindi geographical names
Message-ID: <161227075530.23782.2198865132930430061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Memebers:

My list is now considerably shorter. Many thanks to all who have already
helped.  My only Devanagari
map of India is too small (1: 4 500 000) to include every important
element. The GNS list does not show
retroflex consonants. Long vowels are represented, but not systematically.
If any of  Indian list members would
consult Devanagari maps of India they may have on hand (or - perhaps -
indexes to Hindi school atlases) ,
their help would be greatly appreciated. It quite might be that there are
somewhere on the Net electronic versions
of India maps in Devanagari script, with standardized Hindi versions
of  geographical names, but I am not
aware of it. Are there any? Survey of India maps are not yet freely
available on the Net:

http://www.gisdevelopment.net/policy/india/technology/intech021.htm





Aharbal Falls
Nohkalikai Falls
Nohsngithiang Falls
Kynrem Falls
Hogenakal Falls
Gugamal N.P.
Marine N.P.
Neora Valley N.P.
Moiling N.P.
Namdapha N.P.
Balphakram N.P.
Intanki N.P.
Krem Um Lawan Cave
Krem Maw Tynhiang Cave
Borra Cave

Peaks:


Chameringu
Changabang
Dapha Bum
Dhond
Gurudongmar
Kangto
Kephyaklo
Kokthang
Kolahoi
Langpo Peak
Lulupo
Lungreng Tlang
MAthuri
Namprik Phuk
Nunkun
PangolAkha
Pemikhangchhen
RAtaban
Richi La
Saramati
Saser Kangri
Singarsi Peak
Sonam
TatakUti
Tent Peak
TungAr

Towns:

Dhurbi
Godda
Nongstoin
Oras
Pakur
Perambalur
Reckong Peo



Thanking you in advance,

Artur Karp

South Asian Studies Deptt
University of Warsaw
Poland




From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG  Mon Dec 20 09:33:37 2004
From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 11:33:37 +0200
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <001301c4e650$47dc2b40$2930cece@charlie>
Message-ID: <161227075532.23782.14861037932563413522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

jkirk wrote:

>Well--I certianly care and wouldd like to see the discussion continued here.
>However, if not I can always go to the other list.
>
I don't think IVC pertains to Indology at all. It is about time for the
"Harappans" to set up their own list. Just because the Thracs settled
down on the territory of Bulgaria does not make the Thracology part of
the Slavic Studies. Or Egyptology part of the Arabic Studies.

Best,
Plamen
http://www.indology.net




From treich at UCALGARY.CA  Mon Dec 20 18:13:00 2004
From: treich at UCALGARY.CA (Tamar Reich)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 12:13:00 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075538.23782.10555532625023227175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,
I have not been able to download the original articel despite all efforts.
Is there something I can do about it?
Tamar Reich


---- Original Message -----
From: "Artur Karp" <karp at UW.EDU.PL>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"


>I am one of those list members who do want to know more about this matter
> and would like to have access to the ongoing debate on the status of the
> IVC
> sign system.
>
> After all, what's more Indology than this?
>
> Best,
>
> Artur Karp
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 2004-12-17
>




From rlamb at HAWAII.RR.COM  Mon Dec 20 22:59:09 2004
From: rlamb at HAWAII.RR.COM (rlamb)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 12:59:09 -1000
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20041220210813.0353cfd0@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227075547.23782.14731426769173510100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:

> At 20:24 2004-12-20, you wrote:
>
>> I'll email it to you.
>>
>> Dean Anderson
>

I am in the same situation as others and would greatly appreciate the file.

Ramdas Lamb




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Mon Dec 20 19:24:06 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 13:24:06 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <002801c4e6bf$8c2455b0$6a01a8c0@tri.ucalgary.ca>
Message-ID: <161227075541.23782.15432501077725103520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'll email it to you.

Dean Anderson

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>Tamar Reich
>Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:13 PM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>Friends,
>I have not been able to download the original articel despite
>all efforts. Is there something I can do about it? Tamar Reich
>
>
>---- Original Message -----
>From: "Artur Karp" <karp at UW.EDU.PL>
>To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>>I am one of those list members who do want to know more about this
>>matter  and would like to have access to the ongoing debate on the
>>status of the  IVC  sign system.
>>
>> After all, what's more Indology than this?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Artur Karp
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 2004-12-17
>>
>




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Mon Dec 20 21:07:22 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 15:07:22 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.61.0412201653140.1284@anat-lws119>
Message-ID: <161227075545.23782.13675984029264810187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Is there any bar to interested parties joining up or just passively
reading the ScholarlyServices or
>Indology at yahoo lists?  Not every list has to cover every topic.  The
main thing is that the topic gets an intelligent
>discussion *somewhere*, and that interested parties should know where
that is and be able to participate.

Actually, there is a rather significant bar to ScholarlyServices it
seems. And opinions apparently vary about the amount of "intelligent"
discussion on the Indology list since most professional Indologists no
longer post there!

Perhaps there is a need for a list that straddles this one and
ScholarlyServices?

Dean Anderson




From d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Dec 20 16:56:43 2004
From: d.wujastyk at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 16:56:43 +0000
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <001301c4e650$47dc2b40$2930cece@charlie>
Message-ID: <161227075534.23782.8633740053376543799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, jkirk wrote:

> Well--I certianly care and wouldd like to see the discussion continued here.
> However, if not I can always go to the other list.
> Joanna Kirkpatrick

I think Joanna has hit the nail on the head here: if this particular
discussion is already thriving on some other list, like ScholarlyServices,
then why divert it from there to here, or duplicate things?  Is there any
bar to interested parties joining up or just passively reading the
ScholarlyServices or Indology at yahoo lists?  Not every list has to cover
every topic.  The main thing is that the topic gets an intelligent
discussion *somewhere*, and that interested parties should know where that
is and be able to participate.

(This is just my personal view, not a committee view.)

Best,
Dominik




From zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE  Mon Dec 20 18:39:33 2004
From: zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 19:39:33 +0100
Subject: search for source of verses
Message-ID: <161227075536.23782.160168249643981063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With apologies for possible cross-posting -

Recently, while reading the Anubhavasuutra, a Virasaiva text from the
14th century, I came across the verse

yathaa kalaa tathaa bhaavo yathaa bhaavas tathaa mana.h
yathaa manas tathaa d.r.s.tir yathaa d.r.s.tis tathaa sthalam

to which a student of mine said that she had read something similar she
had learnt during a dance class and supposedly is foudn in Bharata's
Naa.tya;saastra:

yathaa hastas tathaa d.r.s.tir yathaa d.r.s.tir tathaa mana.h
yathaa manas tathaa bhaavo yathaa bhaavo tathaa rasa.h

In view of the similarity of these verses, we are wondering whether
both are derived from a still older verse. Does anyone have a
suggestion?

RZ




From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 21 05:05:27 2004
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 21:05:27 -0800
Subject: search for source of verses
In-Reply-To: <7DCC468F-52B6-11D9-8637-000D9334B862@uni-muenchen.de>
Message-ID: <161227075550.23782.1055261941203713308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The "dance verse" is

yato hastastato dR.STiryato dR.STistato manaH
yato manastato bhAvo yato bhAvastato rasaH

This one comes from the Nandibharata text, some parts
of which are published as two different works:
AbhinayadarpaNa and BharatArNava, both ascribed to
NandikeSvara. In the former the verse is repeated
twice, as ## 37 and 247, in the latter it is included
in the Appendix as # 9 (wrongly marked as 2 in 1998
edition). The original Nandibharata exists in few
remaining fragments incorporated in various
substitutes for the work.
I recollect having seen this verse quoted (without
reference to the source) in some other dance manuals
(both published and unpublished).
In modern dance practical traditions it is mostly
learnt from the AbhinayadarpaNa book.
I also suspect that it could be added to Nandibharata
much later and the original source of the verse is now
lost.
As far as my knowledge goes, NATyaSAstra doesn't have
it.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Marina Orelskaya

Dr Marina Orelskaya
c/o Department of Performing Arts
University of Pune
Ganeshkhind Road
Pune 411007
India.

--- Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> wrote:

> With apologies for possible cross-posting -
>
> Recently, while reading the Anubhavasuutra, a
> Virasaiva text from the
> 14th century, I came across the verse
>
> yathaa kalaa tathaa bhaavo yathaa bhaavas tathaa
> mana.h
> yathaa manas tathaa d.r.s.tir yathaa d.r.s.tis
> tathaa sthalam
>
> to which a student of mine said that she had read
> something similar she
> had learnt during a dance class and supposedly is
> foudn in Bharata's
> Naa.tya;saastra:
>
> yathaa hastas tathaa d.r.s.tir yathaa d.r.s.tir
> tathaa mana.h
> yathaa manas tathaa bhaavo yathaa bhaavo tathaa
> rasa.h
>
> In view of the similarity of these verses, we are
> wondering whether
> both are derived from a still older verse. Does
> anyone have a
> suggestion?
>
> RZ
>




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From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Mon Dec 20 20:11:08 2004
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 21:11:08 +0100
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <007001c4e6c9$7a4fed90$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075543.23782.644589352023818021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 20:24 2004-12-20, you wrote:

>I'll email it to you.
>
>Dean Anderson

Dear Dean,

Would you mind if I asked for the same?

Artur Karp



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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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From opfallon at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 21 06:32:58 2004
From: opfallon at YAHOO.COM (oliver fallon)
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 04 22:32:58 -0800
Subject: IVC on Indology list
In-Reply-To: <E1CgXRc-0003rX-Ih@lsrv-mail.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227075552.23782.16913294746958153539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is a matter of opinion as to the nature of the IVC whether it is a topic for this list. It would seem essential that the discussion stays here as this is the only well moderated list that covers all aspects of classical Indology. As those who disrupted the list have moved on and are now disrupting other lists such as 'Abhinavagupta' we should regard this as a haven where intelligent discussion of this very interesting theory can take place. Where topics are clearly labelled, those with no interest can simply skate over posts which they do not want to read. A specific Harrappa/IVC list would be interesting only if well moderated and if the major researchers were regular contributors.

Oliver Fallon


---------------------------------
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 Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today!




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Tue Dec 21 10:50:05 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 04 04:50:05 -0600
Subject: IVC on Indology list
In-Reply-To: <41C7D4A6.6040004@orientalia.org>
Message-ID: <161227075558.23782.12758943713646179771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe that the IVC is directly relevant to Indology even if one does
not subscribe to some of the more extreme views that would seek to
identify the Harappans as Aryans. There are unmistakable connections
between the Harappans and later Indic systems that are almost
universally accepted by the most mainstream of scholars.

A few examples: the Harappan weight system is still used in India today.
A field at the Harappan city of Kalibangan was ploughed in distinct way
still in use in that part of South Asia. There are undeniable
connections between designs of carts, boats, clothing styles including
the practice among women of wearing red ochre in the part of their hair;
and of religious practices such as the veneration of the pipal and
banyan trees, etc. More speculative, but still widely accepted, are the
identification among Harappan remains of proto-Ziva, Pazupati (or
MahiSa); the Mother Goddess/Durga; the seven rishis/krittikas;
nakSatras, yoga asanas, etc. These are generally, but not universally,
considered to be part of a Dravidian substratum that mixed with Aryanism
to give rise to later Indic/Vedic/Hindu thoughts and practices.

Regarding some of the other lists, unfortunately they usually have a
rather low signal-to-noise ratio and one is often forced to wade through
pages of uniformed speculation by those who have not taken the time to
do the most basic research. This, combined with the highly emotional
attacks (sadly prevalent among mainstream academics as well as
traditionalists) has tended to drive most professional Indologists away.
Having said that, however, there some very valuable and well-informed
opinions on those sites.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>Plamen Gradinarov
>Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 1:46 AM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: IVC on Indology list
>
>I really wonder why academics are so retrofascinated by
>such primitive forms of scholarly communication like lists and
>quasi-usenet groups.

What alternative would you suggest? I personally would like to see
scholarly discussion move more in the direction of electronic
communication such as that in Witzel's EJVS. I feel that the old system
of print journals with limited distribution and access only impede
academic progress. We have seen that on this list with members having
difficulty in accessing the discussions in Science about the Witzel,
Farmer, Sproat article. Certain fast moving fields like physics or one
of my old areas of research, neuroscience, have tended to move away from
print journals to a remarkable degree because the internet is so much
more conducive to rapid exchange of ideas.

Respectfully,

Dean Anderson




From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET  Tue Dec 21 07:30:57 2004
From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 04 07:30:57 +0000
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <41C7593D.4080801@hawaii.rr.com>
Message-ID: <161227075554.23782.2421891304282836648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Me, too!  (I also have problems accessing the pdf document on Steve's website.)

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

At 12:59 pm -1000 20/12/04, rlamb wrote:
>Artur Karp wrote:
>
>>At 20:24 2004-12-20, you wrote:
>>
>>>I'll email it to you.
>>>
>>>Dean Anderson
>>
>
>I am in the same situation as others and would greatly appreciate the file.
>
>Ramdas Lamb




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 21 15:33:01 2004
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 04 07:33:01 -0800
Subject: List committee: option NOMAIL for holiday/trip abroad/etc.
Message-ID: <161227075563.23782.3869620629982318461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Listmembers,

With the holiday season approaching,
I draw your attention to the possibility
to set your subscription to
NOMAIL, which means that you will not receive any

messages from the list.
Also practical if you go abroad for a while.
You are still actually a member, and
whenever you want to start getting messages again

you can yourself set mail
delivery to normal again.
The link to the subscription management page can
be found on the INDOLOGY website,
and I paste it here below as well (make sure that
that everything is on one line):

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=indology

After logging in, see the option for NOMAIL under
Miscellaneous (bottom of the page).

With best season's greetings and best wishes for
the new year.

On behalf of the Committee,
J.H.




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From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Tue Dec 21 16:35:25 2004
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 04 09:35:25 -0700
Subject: IVC on Indology list
Message-ID: <161227075565.23782.14922016510288956145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If only! The EJVS is a signal contribution. I wish it would soon be followed
by the major iranica journals and a few others also going electronic.
Joanna Kirkpatrick
=======================


> What alternative would you suggest? I personally would like to see
> scholarly discussion move more in the direction of electronic
> communication such as that in Witzel's EJVS. I feel that the old system
> of print journals with limited distribution and access only impede
> academic progress. We have seen that on this list with members having
> difficulty in accessing the discussions in Science about the Witzel,
> Farmer, Sproat article. Certain fast moving fields like physics or one
> of my old areas of research, neuroscience, have tended to move away from
> print journals to a remarkable degree because the internet is so much
> more conducive to rapid exchange of ideas.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Dean Anderson




From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG  Tue Dec 21 07:45:42 2004
From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 04 09:45:42 +0200
Subject: IVC on Indology list
In-Reply-To: <20041221063258.35962.qmail@web50407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227075556.23782.9194778921337380156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

oliver fallon wrote:

>A specific Harrappa/IVC list would be interesting only if well moderated and if the major researchers were regular contributors.
>
There is already such list. Dr. Kalyanaraman created it yesterday:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/hinducivilization

Best,
Plamen

PS. I really wonder why academics are so retrofascinated by such
primitive forms of scholarly communication like lists and quasi-usenet
groups.




From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG  Tue Dec 21 13:47:42 2004
From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov)
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 04 15:47:42 +0200
Subject: IVC... and ICMS
In-Reply-To: <00de01c4e74a$d549b470$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075560.23782.9446555956176940781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dean Anderson wrote:

>>I really wonder why academics are so retrofascinated by
>>such primitive forms of scholarly communication like lists and
>>quasi-usenet groups.
>>
>>
>
>What alternative would you suggest? I personally would like to see scholarly discussion move more in the direction of electronic
>communication such as that in Witzel's EJVS. I feel that the old system of print journals with limited distribution and access only impede academic progress.
>
Dear Dean,

I am totally with you and would even propose to make several steps
further: Let us set up an Indological Content Management System (ICMS)
combining the features of multiple electronic journals, the TTF
versatility of published book, the dynamic nature of online discussions,
the Open Spirit of GFDL, and the comprehensive substance of an
encyclopedic dictionary and original text repository, all in one.

In short, I am thinking about customizing the best solution now
available at the CMS market, namely, the Wikipedia, and come up with a
special clone of the English Wikipedia (about 2 Gigs of data) in 24
hours for all of us to experiment.

Best Regards,
Plamen




From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG  Wed Dec 22 00:03:15 2004
From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 04 02:03:15 +0200
Subject: The Indopedia project
Message-ID: <161227075567.23782.12221271579405571047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As promised, the universal scholarly communication and content
management system has been set up for holiday experiments.

http://www.indopedia.org

Any page is open for editing, the major task being the categorial
framework. Every change is documented in a separate version of the
article changed. So everyone is invited to change and add whatever
deemed necessary.

The base code is Western European, but in the end of the testing period
it will be changed to UTF-8 to allow for full-fledged diacritics,
Devanagari, and other Indic and Eastern scripts.

Why Wikipedia fork? Because there is not even an article on Indology in
the Wikipedia, and because most of the terminological entries are not
appropriate there, being redirected to another open project called
Wiktionary. Which is clearly far away from the Indology.

If there is interest to this project, a special discussion  forum can be
set up.

Best regards,
Plamen




From srangan at YORKU.CA  Wed Dec 22 14:41:12 2004
From: srangan at YORKU.CA (Shyam Ranganathan)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 04 09:41:12 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <41C69C71.5080705@orientalia.org>
Message-ID: <161227075574.23782.2592825392643679396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Quoting Plamen Gradinarov <plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG>:

> I don't think IVC pertains to Indology at all. It is about time for the
> "Harappans" to set up their own list. Just because the Thracs settled
> down on the territory of Bulgaria does not make the Thracology part of
> the Slavic Studies. Or Egyptology part of the Arabic Studies.
>

Dear list members

I am very troubled by the idea that we can a priori decide what is relevant to
Indology over and above bringing to bear geographic considerations.

Morally, I find the idea alarming that only certain cultural traditions ought
to be studied in a field like Indology. Does that mean that I and my family's
experiences have no place in the study of Canada as data, because my parents
were immigrants to Canada?

As well, I think we stand to loose a lot if we decide a priori that IVC doesn't
fall within the scope of Indology. Perhaps current theories suggest that there
is relatively little connection between IVC and "India" but our knowledge in
this realm is very shaky. It seems premature to write out a study of IVC from
the context of Indology on current research. Moreover, as Dean Anderson points
out, there is a strong historical and cultural connection between IVC and
latter India and Dravidian culture.

None of this is meant to suggest that we need to disrupt the peace on the
Indology list, only that the topic should be allowed to be discussed here in
the manner of other discussions. It would certainly be a shame if it
overshadowed other issues.

Best,

Shyam

*************************************************************************
Shyam Ranganathan
Department of Philosophy, York University, Toronto     (http://shyam.org/)
Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://www.iep.utm.edu/1/editors.htm)
                      (http://www.yorku.ca/srangan/DesiredArticleList.htm)

*************************************************************************




From jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE  Wed Dec 22 09:12:16 2004
From: jpeterso at UNI-OSNABRUECK.DE (John Peterson)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 04 10:12:16 +0100
Subject: The Indopedia project
In-Reply-To: <41C8B9C3.1080706@orientalia.org>
Message-ID: <161227075569.23782.16029860081768222271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Plamen,

are you sure the address is correct?
>
> http://www.indopedia.org
>

I just tried to open it but got an error message saying that it doesn't
exist.

All the best,
John

-- 
John Peterson
FB 7, Sprachwissenschaft
Universit?t Osnabr?ck
D-49069 Osnabr?ck
Germany
Telephone: (+49) (0)541-969 4252
Telefax: (+49) (0)541-969 4256
Homepage: http://www.SouthAsiaBibliography.de/




From plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG  Wed Dec 22 09:39:16 2004
From: plamen at ORIENTALIA.ORG (Plamen Gradinarov)
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 04 11:39:16 +0200
Subject: The Indopedia project
In-Reply-To: <3018.131.173.152.221.1103706736.squirrel@webmail.rz.uni-osnabrueck.de              >
Message-ID: <161227075571.23782.489273717808004191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Peterson wrote:

>I just tried to open it but got an error message saying that it doesn't exist
>
Hello, John!

The address is correct, http://www.indopedia.org - probably your parent
DNS server is not yet updated. The domain has been registered yesterday.
The global propagation takes usually 48-72 hours. It has been already
indexed by some WHOIS servers
http://www.whois.sc/indopedia.org

If using Windows, open Windows/Hosts and add temporarily

67.19.65.133    indopedia.org

Thanks,
Plamen




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Thu Dec 23 11:48:26 2004
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 04 12:48:26 +0100
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <41C940C4.3040303@orientalia.org>
Message-ID: <161227075576.23782.9501676124957041445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From: "Ferenc Ruzsa" <ferenc.ruzsa at axelero.hu>
To: "Artur Karp" <karp at uw.edu.pl>
Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"

Dear Artur,

[...]

Another request:
for some mysterious reason I cannot post to the Indology mailing list.
Could you forward this message for me?

Yours,
Ferenc

--- Msg. to Indology --------

Friends,

reflecting on the no-script thesis some questions occurred to me.

1.) Is it only the paraphernalia of writing (tablets, ink-pots, paper
manufacturing equipment or whatever) that we do not find in the Indus
Culture? I think that there is a curious lack of religious objects, temples,
cemeteries. Does that suggest that they were irreligious and immortal?

2.) What is the situation in those ages where we know for sure that  writing
was a well estabilished practice? I mean -- from at least the rule of Ashoka
we have evidence of the widesprad use of script(s) in India. Do we find in
the corresponding archeological layers remnants of those writing tools etc.?

Marry Xmas to everyone,

Ferenc


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From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET  Thu Dec 23 18:02:33 2004
From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 04 13:02:33 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <6.0.2.0.2.20041223124628.0354f9f0@poczta.uw.edu.pl>
Message-ID: <161227075578.23782.17804206507213069748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

A brief response to the questions of Ferenc Ruzsa:

--- Msg. to Indology --------

Friends,

reflecting on the no-script thesis some questions occurred to me.

<<1.) Is it only the paraphernalia of writing (tablets, ink-pots, paper
manufacturing equipment or whatever) that we do not find in the Indus
Culture? I think that there is a curious lack of religious objects, temples,
cemeteries. Does that suggest that they were irreligious and immortal?>>

There is *no* lack of religious objects and cemeteries in IVC [whereas there
*is* a lack of temples].  Therefore, one does not need to answer your
rhetorical and of course illogical question.

<<2.) What is the situation in those ages where we know for sure that
writing
was a well estabilished practice? I mean -- from at least the rule of Ashoka
we have evidence of the widesprad use of script(s) in India. Do we find in
the corresponding archeological layers remnants of those writing tools
etc.?>>

This is a good question, and here is an answer to it from Steve Farmer:
"Yes. We find them in great abundance. For discussion and references, see
Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel pp. 25-6."  Recall the post-Indus rock and cliff
inscriptions discovered by Jettmar.  Also, the paper discusses the discovery
of writing utensils at Taxila.

<<Marry Xmas to everyone,

Ferenc>>

Thanks for the good wishes, Ferenc, but I am married to someone else!

Best wishes to you.

George




From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET  Fri Dec 24 01:17:54 2004
From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 04 20:17:54 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKKDFGLJBBKJBLEMCOEGLDMAA.gthomgt@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <161227075581.23782.16464031868783941616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With regard to writing paraphernalia, I should have mentioned Richard
Salomon's *Indian Epigraphy*, pp.126ff.: a nice survey of the range of
materials on which Indic inscriptions have been found.

Farmer, Sproat & Witzel of course duly cite this source.

Best again to all,

George




From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU  Fri Dec 24 19:27:28 2004
From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 04 11:27:28 -0800
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <000001c4e9ec$3bd4ec20$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075585.23782.12274464984633561368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wonder if the zi.s.tas would care to comment on what has always
seemed to me a classic case of circular reasoning: the IVC looks
like, and should be understood at least in part as, a precursor to
later Indian developments (e.g., in the cases of Ziva, ritual
bathing, status of certain animals), but primarily so seen in light
of those later developments--thus one proves the other. Is there a
way to de-link the IVC objects/evidence from their retrospective
reconstructions, and still establish some continuity with later
Indian facts?
--
Jonathan Silk
Department of Asian Languages & Cultures
Center for Buddhist Studies
UCLA
290 Royce Hall
Box 951540
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540
phone: (310)206-8235
fax:  (310)825-8808
silk at humnet.ucla.edu




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Fri Dec 24 19:10:17 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 04 13:10:17 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKKDFGLJBBKJBLEMCOEGLDMAA.gthomgt@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <161227075583.23782.5599822497868434282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A small point of information pertaining to the discussion between George
and Ferenc.

Although it is true there are significant remains of religious objects
and cemeteries in the IVC they are rather scanty when one considers that
the civilization lasted for over 700 years. The common explanation is
much of the remains were made of perishable materials that have not
lasted over the millennia -- this could also be relevant to the script.

Regarding burial practices there is some evidence indicating both
cremation and fractional burials which would, once again, reflect
practices in South and Central Asia respectively which is to be expected
since the IVC was a transition zone between these two regions.

Dean Anderson




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Fri Dec 24 21:26:52 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 04 15:26:52 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <p06002030bdf21cde812d@[169.232.227.8]>
Message-ID: <161227075588.23782.1889742513463135456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The ones you mention: Ziva, ritual bathing, status of certain animals,
etc. are indeed some of the items that could be accused of 'circularity'
and they are likely only in the light of some of the more firm
identifications like weights, dress, tools, pipal/banyan worship, etc.
that can be considered as native to South India as opposed to either
part of the larger Mesopotamian-South-Central Asian axis or simply
universal. This is the problem with the attempts to postulate a Harappan
origin of the Brahmi script: the letters that are similar between them
are almost all more-or-less common symbols in many scripts. In the same
way, Mother Goddesses and 'hero' motifs are common throughout the entire
region.

That there is continuity is undoubted; what it means in terms of culture
and ideology is not so clear.

Dean Anderson

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>Jonathan Silk
>Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 1:27 PM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>I wonder if the zi.s.tas would care to comment on what has
>always seemed to me a classic case of circular reasoning: the
>IVC looks like, and should be understood at least in part as,
>a precursor to later Indian developments (e.g., in the cases
>of Ziva, ritual bathing, status of certain animals), but
>primarily so seen in light of those later developments--thus
>one proves the other. Is there a way to de-link the IVC
>objects/evidence from their retrospective reconstructions, and
>still establish some continuity with later Indian facts?
>--
>Jonathan Silk
>Department of Asian Languages & Cultures
>Center for Buddhist Studies
>UCLA
>290 Royce Hall
>Box 951540
>Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540
>phone: (310)206-8235
>fax:  (310)825-8808
>silk at humnet.ucla.edu
>




From karp at UW.EDU.PL  Sat Dec 25 22:24:01 2004
From: karp at UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 04 23:24:01 +0100
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <1103726472.41c98788b365f@webmail.yorku.ca>
Message-ID: <161227075590.23782.15919613888921261730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Artur,

it is becoming more and more embarassing, but I still cannot reach Indology
directly. Could you pass this on?
Thank you again,
Ferenc

--- Msg to Indology ---------------

Friends,

I am afraid that I made a fool of myself, as professor Thompson pointed out
in not unclear terms. Still I think that what I *wanted* to ask has not yet
been fully answered.
One of the central arguments of Farmer et al. is based on silence, lack of
data of a particular kind. I think they have shown quite convincingly that
compared to several other literate cultures this lack is conspicuous. My two
points were:
1. Is it not true that the IVC is irregular in other important respects?
2. Is there no similar lack of writing accessories in the archeological
record of this area in historical times?

To the second, George Thompson forwarded

>from Steve Farmer:
>"Yes. We find them in great abundance. For discussion and references, see
>Farmer, Sproat, and Witzel pp. 25-6."

There is a single sentence relevant: "Finds of writing utensils from early
historical times are also common not far from Indus teritories, as shown for
example in Marshall's own reports of his long-term excavations at Taxila
(Marshall 1951)."
The reference is probably to "Marshall, J., 1953: Taxila. 3 Vols. Cambridge:
Cambridge University Press" from the References Cited.
I have to admit that I do not have acces to these volumes; but I would be
quite content if someone conversant with the field could say something like
a rough estimate: in the last three centuries BCE how many writing tools
have been found at how many sites?
If the answer is well above 20 pieces and 3 sites, that would make the
no-lost-mss thesis stronger.
On the other hand, if the answer is something like "four pieces at a single
site", one could convincingly argue that as in this age, when Brahmi and
Kharosthi scripts are known to have existed, all mss. and almost all writing
tools have disappeared, the same might be the case with the IVC.

Dear George,

><<Marry Xmas to everyone,
>Ferenc>>
>Thanks for the good wishes, Ferenc, but I am married to someone else!

Apologies to your wife -- I should have written "Marry Xmas to everyone
else". It is so easy to cause some merriment! (As it is probably more than
obvious to you I am not a native speaker of English.)

Sincerely yours,
Ferenc
--------------------------------------------------------
Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD
associate professor of philosophy
E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest
e-mail: ferenc.ruzsa at elte.hu


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From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET  Sun Dec 26 15:29:40 2004
From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 04 10:29:40 -0500
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <000001c4e9ff$4a47d390$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075608.23782.5299675612784991107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, I am no ziSTa when it comes to IVC, but I have paid attention to the
general discussion.  Since genuine IVC ziSTas have not made appearance on
the list in a long while, maybe it is not presumptuous of me to comment.

It seems to me that IVC ziSTas have at times acknowledged this very
circularity that Jonathan refers to, but typically they have returned
thereafter, with a polite tipping of the hat in passing, to their familiar
and indeed circular beaten paths.

Let us take the treatment of proto-Ziva in Parpola 1994 [chapter 10].

This interpretation of some very famous seals [M-304 & M-305; Parpola 1994's
Fig. 10.18 ('Proto-Siva') & Fig. 10.9 ('deity in "yogic" posture'] is a
brilliant, fascinating tour-de-force, a great example of what is called
"thick description."  Whenever I read this chapter I am dazzled again.  It
ranges over so much Sanskrit literature, Vedic, Epic, Puranic, and also
moves gracefully between old Dravidian etymologies and passages from early
Tamil literature; iconography from Buddhist and Hindu traditions of late
historical periods; Mesopotamian iconography that is sometimes as much as
4000 years older than their Indic parallels [whereas the later Indic
parallels are sometimes 2000-3000 years younger than their IVC parallels;
there is a great deal of IE and Dravidian etymologizing, etc. etc.

It is a grat story, or maybe I should say that is a chapter in an even
greater story: a unified theory of all of Indian history.

For Dean, some of the elements of this story are "undoubted."  But I think
that there is a lot that is doubtful in this grand narrative, not only in
the general telling, but also in the details.

This doesn't mean that I think that the whole story is wrong or worthless
[far from it!].  It means that in my view much of it is speculative and that
little of it has been truly demonstrated beyond a reasonable "doubt."

I don't think that I am alone in having such a view.

A note to Ferenc: I agree with your point that finds of 20+ pieces at
several sites, instead of only a few at one site, would in fact strengthen
"the no-lost-mss" thesis.  I also do not have access to the volumes of
Maarshall right now, but if you take a look at Salomon's  epigraphy survey
you will find that many of the paraphernalia are found at IVC-neighboring
sites.  Also, one might compare the inscribed pots and potshards discussed
in Salomon's *Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara.*  To be sure, there is
a significant difference between "much evidence" and "a little evidence,"
but perhaps there is a more significant difference between "a little
evidence" and "absolutely none."

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 26 18:29:46 2004
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 04 13:29:46 -0500
Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami
Message-ID: <161227075593.23782.5638651887515820563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology colleagues,

Does anyone know if the tsunami that struck the coastal areas of Andhra,
Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry caused any damage to the manuscript libraries in
Chennai and Pondicherry. For instance, if my memory is correct, the U.V.S library is
not very far from the sea and a low-rise building at that.

Thanks.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET  Sun Dec 26 18:38:54 2004
From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 04 13:38:54 -0500
Subject: FW: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
Message-ID: <161227075595.23782.13779114384784751494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

I sent this post earlier this morning, but apparently it did not reach the
list.

GT
................

Well, I am no ziSTa when it comes to IVC, but I have paid attention to the
general discussion.  Since genuine IVC ziSTas have not made appearance on
the list in a long while, maybe it is not presumptuous of me to comment.

It seems to me that IVC ziSTas have at times acknowledged this very
circularity that Jonathan refers to, but typically they have returned
thereafter, with a polite tipping of the hat in passing, to their familiar
and indeed circular beaten paths.

Let us take the treatment of proto-Ziva in Parpola 1994 [chapter 10].

This interpretation of some very famous seals [M-304 & M-305; Parpola 1994's
Fig. 10.18 ('Proto-Siva') & Fig. 10.9 ('deity in "yogic" posture'] is a
brilliant, fascinating tour-de-force, a great example of what is called
"thick description."  Whenever I read this chapter I am dazzled again.  It
ranges over so much Sanskrit literature, Vedic, Epic, Puranic, and also
moves gracefully between old Dravidian etymologies and passages from early
Tamil literature; iconography from Buddhist and Hindu traditions of late
historical periods; Mesopotamian iconography that is sometimes as much as
4000 years older than their Indic parallels [whereas the later Indic
parallels are sometimes 2000-3000 years younger than their IVC parallels;
there is a great deal of IE and Dravidian etymologizing, etc. etc.

It is a grat story, or maybe I should say that is a chapter in an even
greater story: a unified theory of all of Indian history.

For Dean, some of the elements of this story are "undoubted."  But I think
that there is a lot that is doubtful in this grand narrative, not only in
the general telling, but also in the details.

This doesn't mean that I think that the whole story is wrong or worthless
[far from it!].  It means that in my view much of it is speculative and that
little of it has been truly demonstrated beyond a reasonable "doubt."

I don't think that I am alone in having such a view.

A note to Ferenc: I agree with your point that finds of 20+ pieces at
several sites, instead of only a few at one site, would in fact strengthen
"the no-lost-mss" thesis.  I also do not have access to the volumes of
Maarshall right now, but if you take a look at Salomon's  epigraphy survey
you will find that many of the paraphernalia are found at IVC-neighboring
sites.  Also, one might compare the inscribed pots and potshards discussed
in Salomon's *Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara.*  To be sure, there is
a significant difference between "much evidence" and "a little evidence,"
but perhaps there is a more significant difference between "a little
evidence" and "absolutely none."

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From acollins at GCI.NET  Sun Dec 26 23:25:17 2004
From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 04 14:25:17 -0900
Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami
Message-ID: <161227075597.23782.733878526968681091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wonder about the Adyar Library, also near the Madras beach.

Al Collins

----- Original Message -----
From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
Date: Sunday, December 26, 2004 9:29 am
Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami

> Dear Indology colleagues,
>
> Does anyone know if the tsunami that struck the coastal areas of
> Andhra,Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry caused any damage to the
> manuscript libraries in
> Chennai and Pondicherry. For instance, if my memory is correct,
> the U.V.S library is
> not very far from the sea and a low-rise building at that.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan
>




From rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 27 00:32:07 2004
From: rsriramachandran at YAHOO.COM (Ravindran Sriramachhandran)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 04 16:32:07 -0800
Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami
In-Reply-To: <d0ecbe144e49.41cec9cd@gci.net>
Message-ID: <161227075599.23782.5134734944938173649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

friends
rest assured the "precious material" in UV Saminata
Iyer library and the Theosophical Society Library are
safe, both these libraries are atleast a KM away fromk
the beach (though it is true that the UVS library is
low lying).....would it be possible to wait for a few
days while we bury the dead, evacuate people and
prepare for the after shocks.
ravi


--- Alfred Collins <acollins at GCI.NET> wrote:

> I wonder about the Adyar Library, also near the
> Madras beach.
>
> Al Collins
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>
> Date: Sunday, December 26, 2004 9:29 am
> Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami
>
> > Dear Indology colleagues,
> >
> > Does anyone know if the tsunami that struck the
> coastal areas of
> > Andhra,Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry caused any
> damage to the
> > manuscript libraries in
> > Chennai and Pondicherry. For instance, if my
> memory is correct,
> > the U.V.S library is
> > not very far from the sea and a low-rise building
> at that.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Regards
> > S. Palaniappan
> >
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com




From acollins at GCI.NET  Mon Dec 27 02:31:48 2004
From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins)
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 04 17:31:48 -0900
Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami
Message-ID: <161227075602.23782.10957985712187926967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ravi,

I did not mean to ignore the tragedy of lost human life.  The fishermen living on the shore near the Adyar Library took me out in their boats one day many years ago. I read that hundreds of them were at sea during the tsunami and are lost.  They were beautiful people and I greatly mourn the loss.  I intend to contribute to the reconstruction effort and I am sure many others here will also want to do so.

Al




From veerankp at SIFY.COM  Mon Dec 27 12:09:37 2004
From: veerankp at SIFY.COM (NKP veera)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 04 18:09:37 +0600
Subject: Indological libraries and teh tsunami
Message-ID: <161227075604.23782.10966421057004064211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Quoting  Palaniappa at AOL.COM:

I was also afraid of such a situation since IFP library in pondy will be the first to be hit in such a case. Fortunately there is no such horrible effect on the city of pondy. I called a freind yesterday for this.
veeranarayana

> Dear Indology colleagues,

Does anyone know if the tsunami that struck<br>the coastal areas of Andhra,
Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry caused any<br>damage to the manuscript libraries in
Chennai and Pondicherry. For<br>instance, if my memory is correct, the U.V.S library is
not very far<br>from the sea and a low-rise building at that.

Thanks.

Regards
S.<br>Palaniappan




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Dec 28 01:02:35 2004
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 04 20:02:35 -0500
Subject: Tsunami and Solempattai, Tamil Nadu
Message-ID: <161227075610.23782.522808235335614899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A member of the public has asked for help in locating a Catholic
orphanage in Tamil Nadu where she sponsors a boy.  She is very concerned
to know if he has been injured or killed by the tsunami.  The orphanage
is supposedly in Solempattai, TN, but she sends her donations and
letters to Angelo Project, Sacred Heart Foundation, with an address in
St. Thomas Mount, Chennai.  She is not sure whether the orphanage is
there or the letters are forwarded to someplace else in the state.  I
have been unable to find any town or village named Solempattai in the
sources available to me.  She is sure about the spelling.  The American
foundation that makes the connection between orphans and individual
sponsors is still closed for the Christmas holiday.  Does anyone know
anything about Solempattai, Tamil Nadu?  Is it a neighborhood in
Mylapore or elsewhere in Chennai?

I have already checked the Indian Christian Directory with no success,
searched on every search engine, sent an email to the Archbishop of
Madras, etc.

I'd be most grateful for any help.  Please feel free to forward as
appropriate.


Thanks,

Allen Thrasher


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
of Congress.




From Geoffrey.Samuel at NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU  Mon Dec 27 16:39:29 2004
From: Geoffrey.Samuel at NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU (Geoffrey Samuel)
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 04 22:39:29 +0600
Subject: Red ochre on IVC figurines
In-Reply-To: <E1Cgtv8-0001cn-6y@lsrv-mail.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227075606.23782.15932463530529383863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A brief note on the "practice among women of wearing red ochre in the
part of their hair". This has become one of the more frequently cited
continuities between IVC and later Indic cultures and is (as far as I
know) based on the red ochre visible in the hair-parting of Indus
Valley figurines of women.

I was able to look at a number of these figurines a couple of years
ago, at Theresa McCullough's gallery in London, and it seems that (1)
the red ochre is found on both male and female figurines, and (2)
there are traces of red ochre all over the body of the figurines, not
just in the hair parting.

This suggests, rather to my disappointment I must admit, that the red
ochre on the figurines may be nothing to do with the modern practice
of married women placing sindhur in their hair parting. Any comments?

Geoffrey

>Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:50:05 -0600
>From:    Dean Anderson <dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG>
>Subject: Re: IVC on Indology list

[etc]

>
>A few examples: the Harappan weight system is still used in India today.
>A field at the Harappan city of Kalibangan was ploughed in distinct way
>still in use in that part of South Asia. There are undeniable
>connections between designs of carts, boats, clothing styles including
>the practice among women of wearing red ochre in the part of their hair;


--

Geoffrey Samuel and Santi Rozario, School of Religious and
Theological Studies, Cardiff University, Humanities Building, Colum
Drive, Cardiff CF10 3EU, Wales UK
Tel. (029) 2087 4240. Fax +44-29-2087 4500.
e-mail: Geoffrey.Samuel at newcastle.edu.au, Santi.Rozario at newcastle.edu.au
Web site at http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~mbbgbs




From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Dec 29 15:26:05 2004
From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 09:26:05 -0600
Subject: "Sriika.n.tha the vedantin
Message-ID: <161227075614.23782.6999506540474611173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends,

Can anyone direct me to a reliable reference for the date and provenance
of "Sriika.n.tha, the author of the "sivaadvaita bhaa.sya on the Brahmasutras?

Thanks in advance,
Whitney Cox




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Wed Dec 29 17:26:21 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 11:26:21 -0600
Subject: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
In-Reply-To: <HLEGKKDFGLJBBKJBLEMCGEIJDMAA.gthomgt@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <161227075617.23782.1905368106751356974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think in general George and I agree on the inability to make
definitive statements about the IVC due to a lack of certain crucial
pieces of evidence. I should point out that I did not include the
proto-Ziva identification among those things that I consider "undoubted"
but rather among those that are widely, but not universally, accepted by
many mainstream scholars. Those familiar with the discussion of
IVC-South Asian continuity may note that I did not mention at all many
other much more controversial issues.

Regarding proto-Ziva other identifications have included MahiSa
(Hiltebeitel) and S.R. Rao (Agni). I cite these just as examples of
other scenarios all of which are possible since, at this time, we really
have no way to confidently judge at all.

Dean Anderson


>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>George Thompson
>Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 9:30 AM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Science Mag: "no Indus script"
>
>
>Well, I am no ziSTa when it comes to IVC, but I have paid
>attention to the general discussion.  Since genuine IVC ziSTas
>have not made appearance on the list in a long while, maybe it
>is not presumptuous of me to comment.
>
>It seems to me that IVC ziSTas have at times acknowledged this
>very circularity that Jonathan refers to, but typically they
>have returned thereafter, with a polite tipping of the hat in
>passing, to their familiar and indeed circular beaten paths.
>
>Let us take the treatment of proto-Ziva in Parpola 1994 [chapter 10].
>
>This interpretation of some very famous seals [M-304 & M-305;
>Parpola 1994's Fig. 10.18 ('Proto-Siva') & Fig. 10.9 ('deity
>in "yogic" posture'] is a brilliant, fascinating
>tour-de-force, a great example of what is called "thick
>description."  Whenever I read this chapter I am dazzled
>again.  It ranges over so much Sanskrit literature, Vedic,
>Epic, Puranic, and also moves gracefully between old Dravidian
>etymologies and passages from early Tamil literature;
>iconography from Buddhist and Hindu traditions of late
>historical periods; Mesopotamian iconography that is sometimes
>as much as 4000 years older than their Indic parallels
>[whereas the later Indic parallels are sometimes 2000-3000
>years younger than their IVC parallels; there is a great deal
>of IE and Dravidian etymologizing, etc. etc.
>
>It is a grat story, or maybe I should say that is a chapter in
>an even greater story: a unified theory of all of Indian history.
>
>For Dean, some of the elements of this story are "undoubted."
>But I think that there is a lot that is doubtful in this grand
>narrative, not only in the general telling, but also in the details.
>
>This doesn't mean that I think that the whole story is wrong
>or worthless [far from it!].  It means that in my view much of
>it is speculative and that little of it has been truly
>demonstrated beyond a reasonable "doubt."
>
>I don't think that I am alone in having such a view.
>
>A note to Ferenc: I agree with your point that finds of 20+
>pieces at several sites, instead of only a few at one site,
>would in fact strengthen "the no-lost-mss" thesis.  I also do
>not have access to the volumes of Maarshall right now, but if
>you take a look at Salomon's  epigraphy survey you will find
>that many of the paraphernalia are found at IVC-neighboring
>sites.  Also, one might compare the inscribed pots and
>potshards discussed in Salomon's *Ancient Buddhist Scrolls
>from Gandhara.*  To be sure, there is a significant difference
>between "much evidence" and "a little evidence," but perhaps
>there is a more significant difference between "a little
>evidence" and "absolutely none."
>
>Best wishes,
>
>George Thompson
>




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Wed Dec 29 17:40:39 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 11:40:39 -0600
Subject: Red ochre
In-Reply-To: <a06110401bdf597f8c0bd@[202.84.38.12]>
Message-ID: <161227075619.23782.12677483308054008019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Geoffrey,

Thank you for this fascinating observation. I have read a large
percentage of the writings about the IVC by mainstream scholars and this
is the first time I have heard this mentioned. It illustrates the
importance mentioned in another thread of not letting our preconceptions
color our interpretations.

Red ochre is found very widely across a vast region of the old world
during that time period. It covers so many cultures that I don't think
it could be attributed to any one of what we would consider separate
ethnic/ideological groups like Harappans (IVC), Mesopotamian, Aryans
(however you define that), Indo-Europeans, etc.

It is common among burials of that time. Of course, we find it in modern
India when it is applied to sacred idols. These may not be connected at
all and may simply be due to something as mundane as its bright color.

Has anyone seen any discussion of red ochre in this wider context or
what it might have symbolized? I have puzzled about it for years.

The interpretation that immediately springs to mind is red = blood =
vitality, life force, spirit. But this harks back to the early writings
of the times of Frazer and so much of those early theories have been
shown to be mistaken.

Dean Anderson

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk] On Behalf Of
>Geoffrey Samuel
>Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 10:39 AM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Red ochre on IVC figurines
>
>
>A brief note on the "practice among women of wearing red ochre
>in the part of their hair". This has become one of the more
>frequently cited continuities between IVC and later Indic
>cultures and is (as far as I
>know) based on the red ochre visible in the hair-parting of
>Indus Valley figurines of women.
>
>I was able to look at a number of these figurines a couple of
>years ago, at Theresa McCullough's gallery in London, and it
>seems that (1) the red ochre is found on both male and female
>figurines, and (2) there are traces of red ochre all over the
>body of the figurines, not just in the hair parting.
>
>This suggests, rather to my disappointment I must admit, that
>the red ochre on the figurines may be nothing to do with the
>modern practice of married women placing sindhur in their hair
>parting. Any comments?
>
>Geoffrey
>
>>Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:50:05 -0600
>>From:    Dean Anderson <dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG>
>>Subject: Re: IVC on Indology list
>
>[etc]
>
>>
>>A few examples: the Harappan weight system is still used in India
>>today. A field at the Harappan city of Kalibangan was ploughed in
>>distinct way still in use in that part of South Asia. There are
>>undeniable connections between designs of carts, boats,
>clothing styles
>>including the practice among women of wearing red ochre in
>the part of
>>their hair;
>
>
>--
>
>Geoffrey Samuel and Santi Rozario, School of Religious and
>Theological Studies, Cardiff University, Humanities Building,
>Colum Drive, Cardiff CF10 3EU, Wales UK Tel. (029) 2087 4240.
>Fax +44-29-2087 4500.
>e-mail: Geoffrey.Samuel at newcastle.edu.au,
>Santi.Rozario at newcastle.edu.au Web site at
>http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~mbbgbs
>




From McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU  Wed Dec 29 01:06:46 2004
From: McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU (McComas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 12:06:46 +1100
Subject: kingly associations and the colour blue/indigo
Message-ID: <161227075612.23782.5178154390204261030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends

Does the colour blue/indigo (nIla) have any specific kingly connotations in
Sanskrit literature?

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Yours

McComas
========================================
McComas Taylor
Centre for Asian Societies and Histories
Faculty of Asian Studies
The Australian National University
ACT 0200

(Baldessin Annex, Bldg 105A)

Tel. +61 2 6125 8658 (Wed-Fri)




From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Dec 30 00:08:26 2004
From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 18:08:26 -0600
Subject: Red ochre
In-Reply-To: <000001c4edcd$861c3290$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075624.23782.10920505427727537520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Red ochre and other red mineral substances, especially
cinnabar or vermilion, have played an important cultic
role in many societies, frequently in connection with
rites of the dead. For some aspects of the question
in early medieval Tibet, with reference also to selected
Chinese data, one may refer to my *The Tibetan Assimilation
of Buddhism,* ch.3, "The Mark of Vermilion."

Perhaps an additional point of comparison, pertinent in the
present context, is the later medieval ritual use of sinduura powder
in India -- in Buddhist tantric contexts it is a substance
particularly consecrated to the .daakinii.

Matthew Kapstein




From palaniappa at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 29 18:31:51 2004
From: palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 18:31:51 +0000
Subject: Tsunami and Solempattai, Tamil Nadu
Message-ID: <161227075622.23782.4428177682458990594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Allen,

The following link may be of help to you.

http://www.orphanage.org/asia/india/tnsss/

S. Palaniappan

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:02:35 -0500, Allen W Thrasher <athr at LOC.GOV> wrote:

>A member of the public has asked for help in locating a Catholic
>orphanage in Tamil Nadu where she sponsors a boy.  She is very concerned
>to know if he has been injured or killed by the tsunami.  The orphanage
>is supposedly in Solempattai, TN, but she sends her donations and
>letters to Angelo Project, Sacred Heart Foundation, with an address in
>St. Thomas Mount, Chennai.  She is not sure whether the orphanage is
>there or the letters are forwarded to someplace else in the state.  I
>have been unable to find any town or village named Solempattai in the
>sources available to me.  She is sure about the spelling.  The American
>foundation that makes the connection between orphans and individual
>sponsors is still closed for the Christmas holiday.  Does anyone know
>anything about Solempattai, Tamil Nadu?  Is it a neighborhood in
>Mylapore or elsewhere in Chennai?
>
>I have already checked the Indian Christian Directory with no success,
>searched on every search engine, sent an email to the Archbishop of
>Madras, etc.
>
>I'd be most grateful for any help.  Please feel free to forward as
>appropriate.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Allen Thrasher
>
>
>Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
>Senior Reference Librarian
>Southern Asia Section
>Asian Division
>Library of Congress
>Jefferson Building 150
>101 Independence Ave., S.E.
>Washington, DC 20540-4810
>tel. 202-707-3732
>fax 202-707-1724
>athr at loc.gov
>The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
>of Congress.




From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Dec 30 14:32:52 2004
From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 04 08:32:52 -0600
Subject: Red ochre
In-Reply-To: <000001c4edcd$861c3290$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075632.23782.16563071503645313968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Pace Prof. Witzel, my message was not
an exercise in "facile" comparison, but
a response to Dean Anderson's query:

"Has anyone seen any discussion of red ochre in this wider context or
what it might have symbolized?"

I of course made no assertion that either the Chinese and Tibetan
data, or the use of sinduura in Buddhist tantric contexts has
any interesting connection whatever with IVC. This, however, should
not stop anyone from pondering whether or not there seems
to be a coherent symbolic nexus to be found here.

Matthew Kapstein




From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM  Thu Dec 30 06:40:25 2004
From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 04 11:40:25 +0500
Subject: kingly associations and the colour blue/indigo
Message-ID: <161227075627.23782.17839860050773948433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,
NIla is the name of the son of King AjamIdha born to him in his wife NIlinI.(Vishnupurana 4,19). Another king who lived in Mahishmathi also is named NIla.(MB 2,31)
K.Maheswaran Nair
Dept. of Sanskrit
University of Kerala
India
<iswaran @rediffmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: McComas Taylor <McComas.Taylor at ANU.EDU.AU>
Date: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 6:36 am
Subject: kingly associations and the colour blue/indigo

> Dear Friends
>
> Does the colour blue/indigo (nIla) have any specific kingly
> connotations in
> Sanskrit literature?
>
> Thanks in advance for your insights.
>
> Yours
>
> McComas
> ========================================
> McComas Taylor
> Centre for Asian Societies and Histories
> Faculty of Asian Studies
> The Australian National University
> ACT 0200
>
> (Baldessin Annex, Bldg 105A)
>
> Tel. +61 2 6125 8658 (Wed-Fri)
>




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Dec 30 11:39:29 2004
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 04 20:39:29 +0900
Subject: Red ochre
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0412291800010.18471-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227075629.23782.779655354578261128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One has to be very careful in drawing parallels between the Indus Civ.
and later India (as has been pointed out in this thread).

In particular, red/ochre color and powder have been used forever,
apparently to symbolize blood/life: I do not recall the particular
reference (away from my books now), however, red powder was sprinkled
on the bodies of some Neanderthals in at least one burial (may be in N.
Iraq, just in that in which  flowers were laid on the bodies of a
Neanderthal man, Shanidar IV grave, Kurdistan, 60,000 BCE).

In short, "easy, obvious" comparisons, such as between finds of ochre
on prehistoric Pirak/Indus figurines  and the modern use of Sindura in
the partition of women's hair, as done by the former dir. of Indian
Archaeology, B.B. Lal, are facile but simply unprovable.

MW

On Dec 30, 2004, at 9:08 AM, Matthew Kapstein wrote:

> Red ochre and other red mineral substances, especially
> cinnabar or vermilion, have played an important cultic
> role in many societies, frequently in connection with
> rites of the dead. For some aspects of the question
> in early medieval Tibet, with reference also to selected
> Chinese data, one may refer to my *The Tibetan Assimilation
> of Buddhism,* ch.3, "The Mark of Vermilion."
>
> Perhaps an additional point of comparison, pertinent in the
> present context, is the later medieval ritual use of sinduura powder
> in India -- in Buddhist tantric contexts it is a substance
> particularly consecrated to the .daakinii.
>
> Matthew Kapstein
>
>
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University
1 Bow Street , Cambridge MA 02138
1-617-495 3295           Fax: 496 8571
direct line:       496 2990
http://witzel at fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE  Fri Dec 31 10:43:00 2004
From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 10:43:00 +0000
Subject: Strauss Reprint
Message-ID: <161227075636.23782.8168041121318795168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just out in the Series "Indologica Halensis":

A paperback reprint of Otto Strauss' "Indische Philosophie" has been made availabe in a new typesetting by A. Pohlus:

Otto Strauss: Indische Philosophie. Herausgegeben von Andreas Pohlus. (Geisteskultur Indiens. Klassiker der Indologie. Band 5.) Aachen: Shaker Verlag 2004. ISBN 3-8322-3107-2.
EUR 22,80 only.


Orders (also for review copies) can be placed online with Shaker Publishers:
http://www.shaker.de/Online-Gesamtkatalog/Booklist.idc?Reihe=275

Happy New Year!

Walter Slaje

-------------------------------------------
Prof Dr Walter Slaje
Hermann-Loens-Str. 1
D-99425 Weimar (Germany)
Tel./Fax: ++49-(0)3643-501391
www.indologie.uni-halle.de




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Dec 31 04:05:43 2004
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 13:05:43 +0900
Subject: IVC on Indology list
In-Reply-To: <00de01c4e74a$d549b470$0300000a@LIFEBOOK>
Message-ID: <161227075634.23782.15171156770211216920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The perceptive reader will have noticed that my last post on ochre was 
not a reply to M. Kapstein, but to the general Indus/ ochre thread. 
Aoplogies: I should have cut out his reply.  om, shaantih.

---

However, now  I see that my related, earlier msg had not gone through 
due to formatting problems, thus repeated here:
=====================

A few notes on D. Anderson's message, below:
On Dec 21, 2004, at 7:50 PM, Dean Anderson wrote:

> >>....There are unmistakable connections
> between the Harappans and later Indic systems that are almost
> universally accepted by the most mainstream of scholars.

"some connections" would be the keyword. Their nature and extent is 
very much in question.

> > A few examples: the Harappan weight system is still used i. 
> ...Kalibangan was ploughed in distinct way... designs of carts, boats, 
> clothing styles.... women of wearing red ochre in the part of their 
> hair; ... veneration of the pipal and banyan trees, etc.

Certainly. But not that all of this is part of the everyday, village, 
"small tradition" --
of Pan-(North?) India.  Many of these items are indeed found in the 
Rgveda, as (should have been) well-known since Kuiper's seminal paper 
of 1955:  Kuiper, F.B.J. (1955) ?Rigvedic loan-words,? in O. Spies 
(ed.) Studia Indologica. Festschrift f?r Willibald Kirfel zur 
Vollendung seines 70. Lebensjahres, Bonn: Orientalisches Seminar.

He found non-IE/non-IA loan words only in the areas of nature, 
agriculture, music/dance, folk religion -- but nothing of the 
(supposed/imagined) high level Indus religion/astronomy/town planning 
-- and what not.  But then, what do you expect from post-Mature Indus 
village & small town shamans/priests?

> More speculative, but still widely accepted, are the
> identification among Harappan remains of proto-Ziva, Pazupati (or
> MahiSa); the Mother Goddess/Durga; the seven rishis/krittikas;
> nakSatras, yoga asanas, etc. These are generally, but not universally,
> considered to be part of a Dravidian substratum that mixed with 
> Aryanism
> to give rise to later Indic/Vedic/Hindu thoughts and practices.

"less widely accepted" indeed. All of them have been disputed by 
competent scholars.  This is the field of popular papers/books (and 
some rather inventive/speculating colleagues who print their 
speculations as facts).

To show *direct* links between  Mature Indus and Vedic data is much 
harder. Some of these  features are too general. (The proto-Ziva may  
just be a stone age Eurasian hunter deity, see the Celtic, SE European 
inspired Gundestrup vessel with "Ziva" = cernunnos 'the horned one', 
and others in Eurasia and N.America). Others (medieval Hinduism) are 
divided in space & time by xxx miles/years

Of course, I am constantly on the lookout for serious links and 
possibilities. The scenario would be, as above: acculturation between 
village/small town post Indus people and speakers of IA, especially in 
the non-IA (river names!)  Satlej-Kuruksetra area, where the late 
Harappans indeed moved to.

For example, Kuiper thought that the RV Rsi Agastya and Kavasa have 
Drav. names. Plus his 'Munda'  poets: "A bilingual poet" (his last 
paper of 2000): jarbhari turphari... which was made fun of by medieval 
Buddhist: the Veda has no meaning...

There are some serious possibilities, such as Indus influence on the 
Vedic form of the IE/Eurasian horse sacrifice (see Possehl & 
undersigned) but the evidence is weak. More on these topics to follow 
in due time.

As for a Dravidian substratum, that also is under discussion. Since the 
Brahuis in Baluchistan have been ruled out, for decades (Elfenbein), as 
remnants of the Indus population (they arrived from C. India in the 2nd 
mill. CE only!), your next Dravidians would be in C. India.

The early RV does *not* have Dravidian loan words (EJVS 1999) but some 
300 from other languages; the Drav. words  come in only during the 
middle and late RV periods. The (by and large) unanswered question is : 
from where and how?

According to Southworth (Seventies) the old Drav. vocabulary is 
pre-agricultural; we can now add that they have Sumerian loans (Blazek 
& Boisson 1991) for that. All not very conducive for a scenario of 
Drav. speakers as bearers of the Indus civ. -- that must have been 
populated, anyhow,  by a NUMBER of peoples/languages (EJVS 1999)

In sum, another though popular myth (as we also stress in our EJVS 11-2 
paper)

> Regarding some of the other lists, unfortunately they usually have a
> rather low signal-to-noise ratio and one is often forced to wade 
> through
> pages of uniformed speculation by those who have not taken the time to
> do the most basic research. This, combined with the highly emotional
> attacks (sadly prevalent among mainstream academics as well as
> traditionalists) has tended to drive most professional Indologists away

oM/tathaa.  (cause & effect!)

> Having said that, however, there some very valuable and well-informed
> opinions on those sites.

By Whom? And where?
Please let us know !



Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University
1 Bow Street , Cambridge MA 02138
1-617-495 3295           Fax: 496 8571
direct line:       496 2990
http://witzel at fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm




From treich at UCALGARY.CA  Fri Dec 31 19:47:33 2004
From: treich at UCALGARY.CA (Tamar Reich)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 13:47:33 -0600
Subject: sanaatana dharma
Message-ID: <161227075639.23782.9024564509509400636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Risa folk,
When was the term sanaatana dharma first used and who introduced it? Can
anyone refer me to a good article on the history of the term?
Tamar Reich




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Fri Dec 31 21:05:49 2004
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 15:05:49 -0600
Subject: IVC on Indology list
In-Reply-To: <3DD30648-5AE1-11D9-968C-000A95EF9784@fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227075641.23782.14617122039512242560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>A few notes on D. Anderson's message, below:
>On Dec 21, 2004, at 7:50 PM, Dean Anderson wrote:
<snip>

I think we are agreed on the existence of connections if not the exact
details. The original context of this message was whether the IVC was
appropriate for Indology *at all* and my reply should be viewed with
that in mind.

>> More speculative, but still widely accepted, are the identification
>> among Harappan remains of proto-Ziva, <snip>

>"less widely accepted" indeed. All of them have been disputed by
>competent scholars.

I would be interested in any references you have for those in case I
have missed any.

>This is the field of popular papers/books (and
>some rather inventive/speculating colleagues who print their
>speculations as facts).

I think this is an unfair portrayal if you are referring to Possehl,
Kenoyer, Parpola, et. al. I have read most of their "popular" books as
well as their articles in specialist journals (in addition to some
papers prior to publication or that have not yet been published) and I
have always found them to make clear the speculative nature of their
ideas given the incomplete nature of our knowledge about the IVC.

One thing has just become clear to me since reading the FSW paper is the
new split between the "old school" like those mentioned above and those
supporting the Farmer, Witzel, Sproat position.

Congratulations on your publication, by the way. It was
thought-provoking as always and I eagerly look forward to more
discussion in the academic community. Have any linguists weighed in yet?

Dean Anderson