From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Mon Dec 1 02:04:05 2003 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 03 18:04:05 -0800 Subject: increasinggreed/desires like salt water Message-ID: <161227073533.23782.15443752580298470536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone happen to know examples of what is obviously a proverbial expression, which I know in two forms: 1. For a rich man his thirst for wealth increases just like thirst for salt water 2. lusts are just like salt water--the more they are enjoyed, the more they are craved both referring of course to the idea that the more one drinks salt water the thirstier one becomes. I have several Buddhist examples, but I suspect this must be a common expression... JAS PS: on the principle that it is better to teach a man to fish than to feed him, how would one go about searching for proverbs like this? (I suspect that such things do not qualify as nyaayas, for which we have Jacob's three books...of course, I cannot find my copies now...). -- Jonathan Silk Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Dec 1 02:24:36 2003 From: baums at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Stefan Baums) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 03 18:24:36 -0800 Subject: increasinggreed/desires like salt water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073536.23782.1791695114067812425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > PS: on the principle that it is better to teach a man to fish > than to feed him, how would one go about searching for proverbs > like this? B?htlingk?s Indische Spr?che (plus August Blau?s index in Abhandlungen f?r die Kunde des Morgenlandes IX.4) and Sternbach?s Mah??subh??ita?sa?graha (to the extent available, i.e., a through g?) can help. At least they served me well in a similar situation, tracking down the Sanskrit inscription on Rasmus Rask?s gravestone; full report here: http://staff.washington.edu/baums/rask/ It still takes a lot of digging, though. Best wishes, Stefan PS. What are ?Jacob?s three books?? -- Stefan Baums Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Mon Dec 1 05:38:51 2003 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 03 21:38:51 -0800 Subject: Jacob--the same Col. who brought you the Upanishad index In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073539.23782.8567272245757377999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry to Stefan: I list Jacob's books here: Author Jacob, George Adolphus. Title A handful of popular maxims current in Sanskrit literature / collected by G. A. Jacob. ... Edition 2d ed. rev. and enl. Publisher Bombay : Tuk?r?m J?vaj?, 1907-1911. Description 3 v. 21 cm. Note Title in Sanskrit at head of t.p.; text in English and Sanskrit. Note Includes bibliographical references and index. Contents [pt. 1]. A handful of popular maxims current in Sanskrit literature.-- [pt. 2]. A second handful of popular maxims current in Sanskrit literature. 1909.-- [pt. 3]. A third handful of popular maxims current in Sanskrit literature. 1911. The title of vol. 2, which for some reason is the only one I ever input into my own list of cited works, has the Skt title: laukikanyaayaanjali.h dvitiiyo bhaaga.h , then as in English: mine is the third edition, 1925, published by Nirnaya Sagar Press. Apparently there is a recent reprint of all three vols in 1: Delhi : N??r??jan??, 1983. And as I wrote earlier, I cannot put my hands on my own copies now... -- Jonathan Silk Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From a.passi at ALMA.UNIBO.IT Mon Dec 1 07:25:33 2003 From: a.passi at ALMA.UNIBO.IT (Alex Passi) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 03 08:25:33 +0100 Subject: increasinggreed/desires like salt water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073541.23782.1958055965881934191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An absolute gold mine for proverbs was recommended to me by prof. Aklujkar about three years ago, and is presumably still available: bhAratIya kahAvata saMgraha (Proverbs of India) in three volumes, by vizvanAtha dinakara naravaNe. The latest reprint (original copyright, 1978) I have knowledge of was published in Pune by bhAratIya vicAra sAdhanA prakAzana in 1997. It is a monumental work. All the entries have English translations, and a brief paragraph in English for the general subject of each chapter. Cheers, Alex Passi From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Mon Dec 1 17:28:20 2003 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 03 09:28:20 -0800 Subject: Col. Jacob Message-ID: <161227073544.23782.16128677260889766425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Dundas kindly sent me the attached supplementary ref. to a reprint: Colonel G. A. Jocab [sic !]; A Handful of Popular Maxims Current in Sanskrit Literature, Chaukhamba Sanskrit Pratisthan, Delhi 1995. JAS -- Jonathan Silk Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Mon Dec 1 18:18:53 2003 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 03 10:18:53 -0800 Subject: Medical question: Awareness of genetic damage Message-ID: <161227073547.23782.7233436323614973771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One for the medical specialists: is there any evidence in Indian medical literature--ore elsewhere-- of an awareness of inbreeding depression, that is, what we now understand as the process that inbreeding can lead to expression of recessive alleles? What I am specifically wondering about is this: is there any indication that when ancient Indian people saw children born from close relatives, and the children suffered from visible genetic damage, they attributed that damage to their parentage, rather than for instance attributing it simply to karma? (Of course, I know they didn't attribute it to genes per se...) (I am, by the way, aware of the huge debate over whether pre-modern people could have figured out the principle of inbreeding depression from observation--I'm not asking about that in general, but rather the ancient Indian case in particular.) (As a contast, Medieval [European] literature seems to show no awareness of inbreeding depression, perhaps because in that case any visible genetic damage was understood as divine retribution on the child for the sin of the parents.) thanks in advance, jonathan -- Jonathan Silk Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Dec 2 15:47:14 2003 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 03 15:47:14 +0000 Subject: Medical question: Awareness of genetic damage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073549.23782.1079890462531927247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Jonathan Silk wrote: > What I am specifically wondering about is this: is there any > indication that when ancient Indian people saw children born from > close relatives, and the children suffered from visible genetic > damage, they attributed that damage to their parentage, rather than > for instance attributing it simply to karma? (Of course, I know they > didn't attribute it to genes per se...) Good question! One of the standard categories of disease causation in ayurveda is kulajaroga. But I think your starting point might be the passage in Carakasamhita's Sarirasthana, chapter 3, on the formation of the fetus and on hereditary diseases. At verse 15, the text says: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \subsection{Bharadv\={a}ja still disagrees} % 15 Bharadv\={a}ja said, `If the embryo does develop out of the combination of these various factors which go to make an embryo, how does it cohere? And if it does cohere, how does the embryo, which is born out of a combination, get born with a human form? Because a human is said to arise from a human. If this is so, the argument must be that it is born in the form of a human because a human arises from a human, just as a cow arises from a cow, and a horse from a horse. In this case, the original statement that the embryo arises from a combination is illogical.' \subsubsection{The problem of inherited deficiencies} `And if a human arises from a human, why do those born from stupid, blind, crippled, dumb, dwarfish, stammering, freckled, insane, leprous, or scabrous people not resemble their parents? Perhaps the idea is that the self knows form by means of its own eye, sound by its own organ of hearing, scent by its own organ of smell, taste by its own organ of taste, touch by its own organ of touch, ideas by means of its own organ of understanding? And that for this reason those born of people who are stupid etc., do not resemble their parents? `But in this case too, there would be a problem with contradicting the earlier proposition. For if things were as described, then when the senses were present, the self would have cognition, but when they were not present, it would not have any cognition. And when both situations obtained, the self would be both have a cognition and not have one, and would be mutable. `And if it were the case that it is the act of seeing, etc., which enables the self to have knowledge of objects, then someone with no senses would have no cognition because of the absence of vision, etc. Not having any cognition, it would therefore not be a cause. Not being a cause, it could not be a self. Thus, this claim would be mere verbal construction, without referent.' So said Bharadv\={a}ja. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's more in that section. V. interesting. Translated in my Roots book. Best, Dominik From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Tue Dec 2 19:33:38 2003 From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard Mahoney) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 03 08:33:38 +1300 Subject: Unicode font -- Gentium Message-ID: <161227073552.23782.10406711461472186821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, The following font -- mentioned recently on H-Buddhism -- may be of interest. At present it includes most Latin and Greek glyphs in Unicode 3.0: Gentium -- a typeface for the nations http://scripts.sil.org/gentium Best regards, Richard MAHONEY -- Richard MAHONEY | internet: homepages.comnet.net.nz/~r-mahoney Littledene | telephone / telefax: ++64 3 312 1699 Bay Road | cellular: ++64 25 829 986 OXFORD, NZ | e-mail: r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Dec 3 16:30:00 2003 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 03 16:30:00 +0000 Subject: 5th-7th Dec: CLOSURE of INDOLOGY website Message-ID: <161227073561.23782.12944407709455533124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a reminder that the web server that hosts the INDOLOGY website be closed down for the weekend of the 5th/6th/7th December 2003 for maintenance. This will mean a shutdown from 17:00hrs on Friday 5th December until 09:30hrs on Monday 8th December. DW From torella at UNIROMA1.IT Wed Dec 3 23:36:33 2003 From: torella at UNIROMA1.IT (raffaele torella) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 03 00:36:33 +0100 Subject: fax IGNCA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073554.23782.15665598078181299060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I urgently need the fax number of the IGNCA. Thanks a lot. Raffaele Torella -- Prof. Raffaele Torella Chair of Sanskrit Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza' fax +39 06 4451209 From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Thu Dec 4 07:02:00 2003 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 03 07:02:00 +0000 Subject: fax IGNCA Message-ID: <161227073559.23782.13561028390266438260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raffaele, sometimes they switch their fax over to phone or switch it even off. Better call Tripathi also by phone (23382119) or tell the IGNCA by email that a fax is coming: gctripathi235 at yahoo.com kauladvaita at rediffmail.com Best, Walter "raffaele torella" schrieb: > Dear Members, > I urgently need the fax number of the IGNCA. > Thanks a lot. > > Raffaele Torella > -- > > > > Prof. Raffaele Torella > Chair of Sanskrit > Dipartimento di Studi Orientali > Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza' > fax +39 06 4451209 > -- ------------------------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel./Fax: ++49-(0)3643-501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de From yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP Thu Dec 4 01:23:38 2003 From: yanom at CC.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio YANO) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 03 10:23:38 +0900 Subject: fax IGNCA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073556.23782.14916281871245199138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I met Dr. Advaitavadini Kaul from IGNCA in Helsinki this summer. She gave me a name card in which FAX number is written as: 91-11-3388280 but probably you should add <2> between <11> and <3388280> Yours, Michio YANO Tel +81-75-705-1781 Faculty of Cultural Studies Fax +81-75-705-1799 Kyoto Sangyo University e-mail: yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp Kyoto 603-8555 Japan http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/ From harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri Dec 5 18:37:05 2003 From: harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 03 13:37:05 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Lecturership at University of Pennsylvania In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073564.23782.2722780569772992766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward this announcement to the list. To what it contains I would like to add that applications are invited from outside, as well as from within, the USA. Harunaga Isaacson The University of Pennsylvania Department of South Asia Studies Lectureship in Sanskrit and South Asian Studies The Department of South Asia Studies invites applications for a one-year lecturership, renewable for a second year subject to satisfactory performance, to teach Sanskrit as well as courses on ancient Indian history and culture. The teaching load is three courses per semester, two of which will be elementary and intermediate Sanskrit, the third to be decided in accordance with the successful candidate's skills and areas of interest. Review of applications begins on February 1, 2004. Short-listed candidates will be interviewed at the Association for Asian Studies meeting in San Diego in March 2004. Please address applications, including an up-to-date curriculum vitae, sample publications, a statement of research interests, and the names of three referees with their U.S. mail and e-mail addresses to: Chair, Sanskrit Search Committee, Department of South Asia Studies, 3600 Market Street, Suite 501B, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104. Qualifications: A PhD in Sanskrit or a related field is preferred but not required; ABD candidates will be seriously considered. Salary will be commensurate with qualifications and experience. The University of Pennsylvania is an equal opportunity affirmative action employer; women and minority candidates are strongly encouraged to apply. -- Harunaga Isaacson Temporary departmental address (during the academic year 2003--2004): South Asia Studies University of Pennsylvania 3600 Market Street, Suite 501B Philadelphia, PA 19104-2653 USA tel. +1 215 898 6047 From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Tue Dec 9 02:44:39 2003 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 03 18:44:39 -0800 Subject: foundlings Message-ID: <161227073567.23782.10157686995839595922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I am interested in any information anyone might have on foundlings (in ancient India, I mean). I know about the process of adoption, even including the young man who gives himself (because his parents are dead, or unable to give him). What I am interested in is infants, primarily, who are abandoned, and thus adopted by others. There is a very long and detailed history of this in Europe and the Classical world (connected, not incidentally, with oblation, another issue which in India is yet to be explored), but all I know about it in India is a couple of Buddhist examples, and it is these I am seeking to understand. In fact, I'm not even sure of what a foundling is called. In his English-Skt dictionary, Monier-Williams gives a few equivalents, but since the proffered terms do not turn up in PW, pw, MW (or for that matter in Pali in CPD), I suspect they must simply be neologisms MW invented himself (or perhaps that were in use, but not found in classical sources). Do the Dharma texts discuss this issue of foundlings? Is there some ritual for adoption of a foundling, comperable to the adoption rituals sketched by Kane, perhaps? The Buddhist sources I have suggest, although they are not 100% clear on this, that a family that found an infant might simply pretend that the wife of the family had given birth. (There is a little vignette, in which some neighbors basically say: Hey, she didn't look pregnant, to which another replies: well, some people just don't show, that's all.) By the way, unlike the European case(s), there is no mention of anything being left with the abandoned infant, such as a token (although we do have modern Indian examples of such things, such as in the story studied by AK Ramanujan as a modern Oedipus tale, in which a cloth is left). The absence of a token also makes me wonder how anyone who found the baby would know its caste, a matter which is of grave concern (and apparently legal controversy) in more formal adoptions. thanks in advance for any and all advice! -- Jonathan Silk Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Tue Dec 9 12:34:11 2003 From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 03 06:34:11 -0600 Subject: foundlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073573.23782.3176162029042587422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan: The closest we get is the sixth kind of son called "apaviddha" -- that is a child who has been abandoned by the parents and then adopted by someone else. See Manu 9.171. It is not clear from the texts whether this child is a baby, a toddler, or an older child. The age is left undefined. Patrick From Somadevah at AOL.COM Tue Dec 9 17:20:29 2003 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 03 12:20:29 -0500 Subject: etexts Message-ID: <161227073580.23782.5382645392860334912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, here are some etexts: http://homepage.mac.com/somadevah/Etexts.html hope they are useful, Somdev Vasudeva From asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Dec 9 03:22:23 2003 From: asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Andrew Glass) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 03 12:22:23 +0900 Subject: Sanskrit word order sort program In-Reply-To: <045601c35c7f$d1091060$2e33893e@zen> Message-ID: <161227073570.23782.9929374688123977339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, I'm not sure if you've managed to locate a copy of Excel yet. If you have, I wanted to let you know that I've recently updated the sort coding macro that I use to sort Sanskrit and Gandhari text. It will now sort Tibetan, and can perform conversions to Devanagari and some other things. The interface is not also, a little more user-friendly. The file is available as a txt file from my web page: http://staff.washington.edu/asg/pages/fonts.html under the heading VBA Macros for Indologists. Best wishes, Andrew From Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Dec 9 13:14:09 2003 From: Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 03 14:14:09 +0100 Subject: foundlings Message-ID: <161227073576.23782.10622419324799311024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The right of parents to abandon or sell their children (son) is mentioned in Vasisthasmrti XIV.1-2. More evidence in texts on slavery? Best wishes Axel Michaels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Silk" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 3:44 AM Subject: foundlings > Dear Friends, > > I am interested in any information anyone might have on foundlings > (in ancient India, I mean). I know about the process of adoption, > even including the young man who gives himself (because his parents > are dead, or unable to give him). What I am interested in is infants, > primarily, who are abandoned, and thus adopted by others. > > There is a very long and detailed history of this in Europe and the > Classical world (connected, not incidentally, with oblation, another > issue which in India is yet to be explored), but all I know about it > in India is a couple of Buddhist examples, and it is these I am > seeking to understand. In fact, I'm not even sure of what a foundling > is called. In his English-Skt dictionary, Monier-Williams gives a few > equivalents, but since the proffered terms do not turn up in PW, pw, > MW (or for that matter in Pali in CPD), I suspect they must simply be > neologisms MW invented himself (or perhaps that were in use, but not > found in classical sources). > > Do the Dharma texts discuss this issue of foundlings? Is there some > ritual for adoption of a foundling, comperable to the adoption > rituals sketched by Kane, perhaps? The Buddhist sources I have > suggest, although they are not 100% clear on this, that a family that > found an infant might simply pretend that the wife of the family had > given birth. (There is a little vignette, in which some neighbors > basically say: Hey, she didn't look pregnant, to which another > replies: well, some people just don't show, that's all.) > > By the way, unlike the European case(s), there is no mention of > anything being left with the abandoned infant, such as a token > (although we do have modern Indian examples of such things, such as > in the story studied by AK Ramanujan as a modern Oedipus tale, in > which a cloth is left). The absence of a token also makes me wonder > how anyone who found the baby would know its caste, a matter which is > of grave concern (and apparently legal controversy) in more formal > adoptions. > > thanks in advance for any and all advice! > -- > Jonathan Silk > Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures > Center for Buddhist Studies > UCLA > 290 Royce Hall > Box 951540 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 > phone: (310)206-8235 > fax: (310)825-8808 > silk at humnet.ucla.edu From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG Tue Dec 9 23:41:18 2003 From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 03 17:41:18 -0600 Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? Message-ID: <161227073586.23782.5739583457555971000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone recommend good sources on the clothing of medieval India? Dean Anderson South and Central Asia Research Institute From reicht at POST.TAU.AC.IL Tue Dec 9 20:57:08 2003 From: reicht at POST.TAU.AC.IL (Tamar Reich) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 03 22:57:08 +0200 Subject: foundlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073583.23782.10359353557206197316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan, The Mahabharata is not a Dharma text, but Karna is probably the most famous foundling in Indian literature. Tamar Reich Assistant Professor Department of Religious Studies The University of Calgary email: treich at ucalgary.ca Quoting Jonathan Silk : > Dear Friends, > > I am interested in any information anyone might have on foundlings > (in ancient India, I mean). I know about the process of adoption, > even including the young man who gives himself (because his parents > are dead, or unable to give him). What I am interested in is infants, > primarily, who are abandoned, and thus adopted by others. > > There is a very long and detailed history of this in Europe and the > Classical world (connected, not incidentally, with oblation, another > issue which in India is yet to be explored), but all I know about it > in India is a couple of Buddhist examples, and it is these I am > seeking to understand. In fact, I'm not even sure of what a foundling > is called. In his English-Skt dictionary, Monier-Williams gives a few > equivalents, but since the proffered terms do not turn up in PW, pw, > MW (or for that matter in Pali in CPD), I suspect they must simply be > neologisms MW invented himself (or perhaps that were in use, but not > found in classical sources). > > Do the Dharma texts discuss this issue of foundlings? Is there some > ritual for adoption of a foundling, comperable to the adoption > rituals sketched by Kane, perhaps? The Buddhist sources I have > suggest, although they are not 100% clear on this, that a family that > found an infant might simply pretend that the wife of the family had > given birth. (There is a little vignette, in which some neighbors > basically say: Hey, she didn't look pregnant, to which another > replies: well, some people just don't show, that's all.) > > By the way, unlike the European case(s), there is no mention of > anything being left with the abandoned infant, such as a token > (although we do have modern Indian examples of such things, such as > in the story studied by AK Ramanujan as a modern Oedipus tale, in > which a cloth is left). The absence of a token also makes me wonder > how anyone who found the baby would know its caste, a matter which is > of grave concern (and apparently legal controversy) in more formal > adoptions. > > thanks in advance for any and all advice! > -- > Jonathan Silk > Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures > Center for Buddhist Studies > UCLA > 290 Royce Hall > Box 951540 > Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 > phone: (310)206-8235 > fax: (310)825-8808 > silk at humnet.ucla.edu > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From Somadevah at AOL.COM Wed Dec 10 12:17:27 2003 From: Somadevah at AOL.COM (Somadeva Vasudeva) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 03 07:17:27 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_AW:_Medieval_Indian_clothing=3F?= Message-ID: <161227073601.23782.12130104013337814221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Can anyone recommend good sources on the clothing of medieval India? There are fairly detailed descriptions of costume in the Bhaavaprakaa"sana of "Saaradaatanaya. For instance 10.179?186 gives an unflattering description of the appearance of the seven "tribal" Vaibhaa.sika castes etc. Of course these describe the literary universe (na.tyadharma) and not ordinary life (lokadharma). "Saaradaatanaya is to me easier to understand than Naa.tya"saastra plus (corrupt) Abhinavabhaaratii. Somdev Vasudeva From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Dec 10 09:02:12 2003 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 03 09:02:12 +0000 Subject: etexts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073591.23782.6773390265808322586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies to Somadeva Vasudeva for the delay in processing some of the texts he advertised in the previous message. He had sent them to me some time ago, but major construction work in this department and various reorganisations of GRETIL behind the scenes kept me from it. (It may be mentioned that accented texts will now be processed adequately.) As from today, most of Dr. Vasudeva's files are available from GRETIL in various encodings and with pada indices. The rest will follow shortly, along with other materials. Best regards Reinhold Gr?nendahl ******************************************************************** Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien (Dept. of Indology) 37070 G?ttingen, Germany Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83 Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61 gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm In English: http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Dec 10 07:29:42 2003 From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 03 09:29:42 +0200 Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? In-Reply-To: <000201c3bead$f55a47a0$210110ac@Lifebook> Message-ID: <161227073588.23782.5757188902977292779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I cannot say anything about whether this is a good source, since I have myself never looked at it yet, but perhaps it's worth a peek: La vie publique et priv?e dans l'Inde ancienne : (IIe si?cle av. J.C.-VIIIe si?cle environ) / *Fasc. 7* Les costumes / par Anne-Marie Loth ; pr?f. de Jeannine Auboyer Paris, Presses Universitaires de France 1979 Arlo Griffiths > From: Dean Anderson > Reply-To: Indology > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:41:18 -0600 > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? > > Can anyone recommend good sources on the clothing of medieval India? > > Dean Anderson > South and Central Asia Research Institute From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Dec 10 09:45:59 2003 From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 03 10:45:59 +0100 Subject: AW: Medieval Indian clothing? In-Reply-To: <000201c3bead$f55a47a0$210110ac@Lifebook> Message-ID: <161227073595.23782.6623510686385573290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *Can anyone recommend good sources on the clothing of medieval India? RAjazekharaSUri's SaDdarzanasamuccaya provides fragments of information on the clothing of the followers of some philosophical traditions. Himal Trikha Department for Southasian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University, Austria From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Dec 10 08:20:05 2003 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 03 11:20:05 +0300 Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073593.23782.5679429921791639297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is also a book: Roshen Alkazi. Ancient Indian Costume. New Delhi: Art Heritage, 1983 (An abridged edition: New Delhi: National Book Trust, India, 1996, 1998. "India - The Land and the People" Series), but it ends with the Gupta Period. Yaroslav Vassilkov Wed, 10 Dec 103 10:29 +0300 MSK Arlo Griffiths wrote to INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk: > I cannot say anything about whether this is a good source, since I have > myself never looked at it yet, but perhaps it's worth a peek: > > La vie publique et priv?e dans l'Inde ancienne : (IIe si?cle av. J.C.-VIIIe > si?cle environ) / *Fasc. 7* Les costumes / par Anne-Marie Loth ; pr?f. de > Jeannine Auboyer > > Paris, Presses Universitaires de France 1979 > > Arlo Griffiths > > > > From: Dean Anderson > > Reply-To: Indology > > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:41:18 -0600 > > To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk > > Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? > > > > Can anyone recommend good sources on the clothing of medieval India? > > > > Dean Anderson > > South and Central Asia Research Institute > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Wed, 10 Dec 103 11:14 +0300 MSK From gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE Wed Dec 10 13:15:46 2003 From: gruenen at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 03 13:15:46 +0000 Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? In-Reply-To: <2003Dec10.112005@YV1041.spb.edu> Message-ID: <161227073598.23782.12658866624346800046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG Fri Dec 12 05:08:41 2003 From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (Dean Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 03 23:08:41 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE:_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_=C2=A0_AW:_Medieval_Indian_clothing=3F?= In-Reply-To: <180.239ef28b.2d0868d7@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227073604.23782.9100630001997289437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for all the great references! Dean From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Dec 15 19:03:49 2003 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 03 19:03:49 +0000 Subject: OpenType Devanagari Font Sanskrit 2003 (fwd) Message-ID: <161227073607.23782.1506986921684353626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: OpenType Devanagari Font Sanskrit 2003 Dear Indologists, As of 15th December 2003, the OpenType Unicode font "Sanskrit 2003" is available. This Devanagari font was developed by Swami Satchidananda and me during the past two years. "Sanskrit 2003" is the first font in the history of Devanagari typography including COMPLETE ligatures of ALL conjunct consonants attestable by quotations from original Sanskrit works described in my German linguistics book on "Conjunct Consonants in Sanskrit". "Sanskrit 2003" is documented in my 100-page technical manual http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/itmanual2003.pdf Regards, Ulrich Stiehl, Heidelberg From silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU Tue Dec 16 17:39:12 2003 From: silk at HUMNET.UCLA.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 09:39:12 -0800 Subject: A peculiarity about foundlings Message-ID: <161227073612.23782.7710911762710386858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Patrick and others who helped (or will help) out about foundlings. I am wondering about a treatment in MBh 49.19-21, which treats of the k.rtima as follows (my translation may well need correction!!): Of what sort is the created son who is called a son due to having been received (into a family), or where he would be recognized, Bh?rata, were the standard the father's seed or the mother's womb [that is, who is recognized as equivalent to a natural child]? He should be designated a contrived son who has been abandoned on a road by his mother and father, and whose mother and father are not known. The mastership (that is, parenthood) of one without master (that is, a foundling) should be recognized as residing in one who would nourish him, and his caste becomes the caste of his adoptive parents. kiid.rza.h k?taka.h putra.h samgrahaad eva lakshyate | zukram kshetram pramaa.nam vaa yatra lakshyeta bhaarata || maataapit.rbhyaam samtyaktam pathi yam tu pralakshayet | na ca asya maataapitarau j?aayete sa hi k.rtrima.h || asvaamikasya svaamitvam yasmin sampratilakshayet | savar.nas tam ca posheta savar.nas tasya jaayate || According to the Dharma texts, this description should rather fit the apaviddha, I would think, and I would appreciate any thoughts about whether or not one should sense any distance between the treatments in the Dharma literature and the MBh here. JAS PS: I make an artificial distinction in my trans. of the MBh verses between k.rtaka and k.rtima, but understand them as equivalent. -- Jonathan Silk Department of East Asian Languages & Cultures Center for Buddhist Studies UCLA 290 Royce Hall Box 951540 Los Angeles, CA 90095-1540 phone: (310)206-8235 fax: (310)825-8808 silk at humnet.ucla.edu From slaje at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Dec 16 10:00:00 2003 From: slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 10:00:00 +0000 Subject: Frauwallner Reprint (GIPh) Message-ID: <161227073609.23782.13203704016926186439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just out in the series "Indologica Halensis": E. Frauwallner's "Geschichte der indischen Philosophie" has now been made availabe as a reprint in paperback format, in a new typesetting. Erich Frauwallner: Geschichte der indischen Philosophie - I. Band Die Philosophie des Veda und des Epos / Der Buddha und der Jina / Das Samkhya und das klassische Yoga-System. Herausgegeben von Andreas Pohlus. Band 4.1. Aachen: Shaker Verlag 2003. ISBN 3-8322-1076-8. 25.00 EUR. Erich Frauwallner: Geschichte der indischen Philosophie - II. Band Die naturphilosophischen Schulen und das Vaisesika-System / Das System der Jaina / Der Materialismus. Herausgegeben von Andreas Pohlus. Band 4.2. Aachen: Shaker Verlag 2003. ISBN 3-8322-2226-X. 22.80 EUR. Orders (also for review copies) can be placed online with Shaker Publishers: http://www.shaker.de/Online-Gesamtkatalog/Booklist.idc?Reihe=275 Season's Greetings and a Happy new Year! Walter Slaje ------------------------------------------- Prof Dr Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1 D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel./Fax: ++49-(0)3643-501391 www.indologie.uni-halle.de From acollins at GCI.NET Tue Dec 16 19:20:40 2003 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 10:20:40 -0900 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073617.23782.16500575841164002121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmates, I'm new to this list and thought it might be appropriate to introduce myself. I am a practicing psychologist with a second Ph.D. in Indic Studies from the University of Texas at Austin. My research interests are in Indian psychology, primarily Rgveda, Upanisads, Samkhya-Yoga, Vedanta, and via interpretation of the epics. I was previously on the core faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies in East/West Psychology. For several years I was informally associated with members of the University of Chicago's South Asia program, and have given seminars there, at the Univ. of Wisconsin South Asia annual meeting (several times), the Association for Asian Studies, University of Minnesota, Alaska Pacific University, Chicago Institute for Psychoanalysis, American Psychological Association, etc. Published papers have appeared in the Journal of Indian Philosophy, Journal of Indo-European Studies, other journals and edited books (Vishnu on Freud's Desk, Is the Goddess a Feminist?, etc.). Here is my question. I have a distinct memory of reading, in translation, a poem from Sanskrit saying goodbye to worldly life on entering nirvana or moksa. I do not believe this was a Buddhist text, but may rather have been ascribed to Sankara. I have looked through various sources but find nothing like this among his devotional songs, or elsewhere. I suspect (remember?) that there is a subgenre of literature on this topic: leave-taking on transcending the world, almost sentimentally touching on each part of the world, the senses in turn, the joys of life. Can anybody steer me toward these texts (if indeed they exist)? Alfred Collins Anchorage, Alaska USA From acollins at GCI.NET Tue Dec 16 20:20:38 2003 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 11:20:38 -0900 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073622.23782.11105289829421324622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, but no, that is not it. The poem I remember (?) has a nostalgic feeling, saying goodbye to a world that, in some sense, will be missed. The Nirvana Satakam celebrates nirvana, does not linger on the threshold to wave goodbye. I have begun to suspect I am confounding some Chinese or Japanese Buddhist tradition with Sankara. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: Bindu Bhat Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:07 am Subject: Re: introduction and a question > Are you refering to Niravana Satakam (Manobuddhihankara ....) also > known as > Atma Satakam? > > http://www.kriyayogalahiri.com/message/messageuk/pdfuk/message-23.pdf > > Bindu > > --On 16 ??????? 2003 10:20 -0900 Alfred Collins > wrote: > > Dear listmates, > > > > I'm new to this list and thought it might be appropriate to > introduce> myself. I am a practicing psychologist with a second > Ph.D. in Indic > > Studies from the University of Texas at Austin. My research > interests> are in Indian psychology, primarily Rgveda, Upanisads, > Samkhya-Yoga, > > Vedanta, and via interpretation of the epics. I was previously > on the > > core faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies in > East/West> Psychology. For several years I was informally > associated with members > > of the University of Chicago's South Asia program, and have given > > seminars there, at the Univ. of Wisconsin South Asia annual meeting > > (several times), the Association for Asian Studies, University of > > Minnesota, Alaska Pacific University, Chicago Institute for > > Psychoanalysis, American Psychological Association, etc. Published > > papers have appeared in the Journal of Indian Philosophy, > Journal of > > Indo-European Studies, other journals and edited books (Vishnu > on Freud's > > Desk, Is the Goddess a Feminist?, etc.). > > > > Here is my question. I have a distinct memory of reading, in > > translation, a poem from Sanskrit saying goodbye to worldly life on > > entering nirvana or moksa. I do not believe this was a Buddhist > text,> but may rather have been ascribed to Sankara. I have > looked through > > various sources but find nothing like this among his devotional > songs, or > > elsewhere. I suspect (remember?) that there is a subgenre of > literature> on this topic: leave-taking on transcending the world, > almost> sentimentally touching on each part of the world, the > senses in turn, the > > joys of life. Can anybody steer me toward these texts (if > indeed they > > exist)? > > > > Alfred Collins > > Anchorage, Alaska USA > From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU Tue Dec 16 18:24:41 2003 From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 13:24:41 -0500 Subject: Medieval Indian clothing? In-Reply-To: <000201c3bead$f55a47a0$210110ac@Lifebook> Message-ID: <161227073614.23782.3972652897356316776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Depending by what you mean as "medieval" there is always sculpture and painting (is Ajanta too early?) Khajuraho has some very small reliefs that also depict rather more ordinary people. Then there are the souvenir books from the British period depicting persons of various castes in traditional costume.Susan had one of her students do a master's thesis on one Balser, Trevel Morley, 1971- Title Ethnographic types in Colonial India : a study of a nineteenth-century album of paintings on Mica / by Trevel Morley Balser Publish info Columbus, Ohio : Ohio State University, 1998 While the costumes are for the most part very villagey, there is still some Mughal influence in various details. JOhn >Can anyone recommend good sources on the clothing of medieval India? > >Dean Anderson >South and Central Asia Research Institute From wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Dec 16 20:45:33 2003 From: wmcox at UCHICAGO.EDU (Whitney Cox) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 14:45:33 -0600 Subject: introduction and a question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073624.23782.11822737032518164506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Collins, Perhaps you mean the final verse of Bhart.rhari's Vairaagya"sataka (Chowkambha ed.): maatar medini taataa maaruta sakhe teja.h subandho jala bhraatar vyoma nibaddha eva bhavataam antya.h pra.naanaa~njali.h | yu.smatsa"ngava"sopajaatasuk.rtasphaarasphurannirmala- j~naanaapaastasamastamohamahimaa liiye parabrahma.ni || In Ingalls' translation (An Anthology of Sanskrit Court Poetry, p 12): My father wind and you my mother earth, Fire, my friend, water, my near relation And you my brother sky; in this last breath Of mortal life I send you salutation. >???From living ever with you comes this birth Of uncontaminated wisdom with increase Of goodness that all darkness and all folly cease As now I live in brahma in my death. Whitney Cox From bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Dec 16 20:07:43 2003 From: bb145 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Bindu Bhat) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 15:07:43 -0500 Subject: introduction and a question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073619.23782.9355379282293846451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you refering to Niravana Satakam (Manobuddhihankara ....) also known as Atma Satakam? http://www.kriyayogalahiri.com/message/messageuk/pdfuk/message-23.pdf Bindu --On 16 ??????? 2003 10:20 -0900 Alfred Collins wrote: > Dear listmates, > > I'm new to this list and thought it might be appropriate to introduce > myself. I am a practicing psychologist with a second Ph.D. in Indic > Studies from the University of Texas at Austin. My research interests > are in Indian psychology, primarily Rgveda, Upanisads, Samkhya-Yoga, > Vedanta, and via interpretation of the epics. I was previously on the > core faculty at the California Institute of Integral Studies in East/West > Psychology. For several years I was informally associated with members > of the University of Chicago's South Asia program, and have given > seminars there, at the Univ. of Wisconsin South Asia annual meeting > (several times), the Association for Asian Studies, University of > Minnesota, Alaska Pacific University, Chicago Institute for > Psychoanalysis, American Psychological Association, etc. Published > papers have appeared in the Journal of Indian Philosophy, Journal of > Indo-European Studies, other journals and edited books (Vishnu on Freud's > Desk, Is the Goddess a Feminist?, etc.). > > Here is my question. I have a distinct memory of reading, in > translation, a poem from Sanskrit saying goodbye to worldly life on > entering nirvana or moksa. I do not believe this was a Buddhist text, > but may rather have been ascribed to Sankara. I have looked through > various sources but find nothing like this among his devotional songs, or > elsewhere. I suspect (remember?) that there is a subgenre of literature > on this topic: leave-taking on transcending the world, almost > sentimentally touching on each part of the world, the senses in turn, the > joys of life. Can anybody steer me toward these texts (if indeed they > exist)? > > Alfred Collins > Anchorage, Alaska USA From acollins at GCI.NET Wed Dec 17 06:21:54 2003 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 03 21:21:54 -0900 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073626.23782.2952365163860418311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, thank you, that is certainly the sort of poem I remembered. I don't think it is the same one, but of the same genre. Thanks again, Al Collins ----- Original Message ----- From: Whitney Cox Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:45 am Subject: Re: introduction and a question > Dr. Collins, > > Perhaps you mean the final verse of Bhart.rhari's Vairaagya"sataka > (Chowkambhaed.): > > maatar medini taataa maaruta sakhe teja.h subandho jala > bhraatar vyoma nibaddha eva bhavataam antya.h pra.naanaa~njali.h | > yu.smatsa"ngava"sopajaatasuk.rtasphaarasphurannirmala- > j~naanaapaastasamastamohamahimaa liiye parabrahma.ni || > > In Ingalls' translation (An Anthology of Sanskrit Court Poetry, p 12): > > My father wind and you my mother earth, > Fire, my friend, water, my near relation > And you my brother sky; in this last breath > Of mortal life I send you salutation. > From living ever with you comes this birth > Of uncontaminated wisdom with increase > Of goodness that all darkness and all folly cease > As now I live in brahma in my death. > > > Whitney Cox > From acollins at GCI.NET Wed Dec 17 18:11:11 2003 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 03 09:11:11 -0900 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073631.23782.12171400305134340718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re the Zen reference, Yes, I think I was confabulating Chinese and Indian texts, perhaps because the liminal feeling is similar. My interest is in this very special moment on the verge, which seems to open the possibility of an enlightenment that endures in life, which of course is fundamental in Zen. I think this is imagined in the Vrindavan world, and what Sri Atmananda (Krsna Menon) called "the world between the guru and disciple," (his Malayalam Radhamadhavam): a third realm distinct from ordinary life and moksa. I talked about this at Madison this year in connection to psychoanalysis, but left out the poem I am now searching for, obviously! My main text was the Samkhya Karika where prakrti says to purusa "nasmi naham na me." More on this at my website braindance.us, see the East-West Psychology page. Al Collins ----- Original Message ----- From: jkirk Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:27 am Subject: Re: introduction and a question > Posted by Joanna Kirkpatrick > > Perhaps you are thinking of the famous death poems of Zen monks > and other > poets in Japan? Like Saigyo's death poem, written perhaps a decade > earlieraccording to La Fleur, 2003 (his translation): > > Let it be in spring > and under the cherry blossoms that > I die, while the moon > is perfect at midmonth, like > it was for his peaceful passing. (refers to the Buddha, of course) > > ========= > > > Yes, thank you, that is certainly the sort of poem I remembered. > I don't > think it is the same one, but of the same genre. Thanks again, > > > > Al Collins > > > From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Dec 17 16:27:00 2003 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 03 09:27:00 -0700 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073629.23782.10668043180292424396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Posted by Joanna Kirkpatrick Perhaps you are thinking of the famous death poems of Zen monks and other poets in Japan? Like Saigyo's death poem, written perhaps a decade earlier according to La Fleur, 2003 (his translation): Let it be in spring and under the cherry blossoms that I die, while the moon is perfect at midmonth, like it was for his peaceful passing. (refers to the Buddha, of course) ========= > Yes, thank you, that is certainly the sort of poem I remembered. I don't think it is the same one, but of the same genre. Thanks again, > > Al Collins > From acollins at GCI.NET Thu Dec 18 18:28:05 2003 From: acollins at GCI.NET (Alfred Collins) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 03 09:28:05 -0900 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073637.23782.13224143252874727650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Atmananda, Krishna Menon, was a great sage of a couple of generations ago, semi-famous for a while among Europeans, though with a large Indian following as well. His son, Sri Padmanabha Menon, Sri Adwayananda, was my teacher. He died three years ago. Sri Padmanabha Menon's son, who is rumored to be the successor, still lives in the family home in Malakara, near Chengannur, not too far from Kotayam, on the Pamba river about equidistant from Trivandrum and Cochin. You can read about Atmananda in Arthur Koestler's book The Lotus and the Robot, in Joseph Campbell, and in Jeff Masson's My Father's Guru. He is identified as Gurunathan in the last reference. Raja Rao, the novelist, was Atmananda's disciple, and it was through Raja (then teaching at the University of Texas) that I met his son. An "experimental" school started by Sri Adwayananda's disciples and called the Sri Atmananda Memorial School, is operating in Malakara. It has had very positive notice by national educ ational officials. A branch has opened in Austin, Texas. You might have heard of Krsna Menon as the "police saint of Malabar." He was a police officer, I believe stationed in Trivandrum. At any rate, Campbell met him at a Trivandrum hotel and that is where European disciples stayed (before my time). There was an article in the Kerala papers that I saw after Sri Adwayananda passed with some history. Al Collins ----- Original Message ----- From: Maheswaran Nair Date: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:21 am Subject: Re: introduction and a question > I would like to know more about Sri Atmananda (Krsna Menon).Though > I am here in Trivandrum I have no connection with anyone knowing him. > Thanks in advance. > K.Maheswaran Nair > University of Kerala > Trivandrum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alfred Collins > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:41 pm > Subject: Re: introduction and a question > > > Re the Zen reference, Yes, I think I was confabulating Chinese and > > Indian texts, perhaps because the liminal feeling is similar. My > > interest is in this very special moment on the verge, which seems > > to open the possibility of an enlightenment that endures in life, > > which of course is fundamental in Zen. I think this is imagined > > in the Vrindavan world, and what Sri Atmananda (Krsna Menon) > > called "the world between the guru and disciple," (his Malayalam > > Radhamadhavam): a third realm distinct from ordinary life and > > moksa. I talked about this at Madison this year in connection to > > psychoanalysis, but left out the poem I am now searching for, > > obviously! My main text was the Samkhya Karika where prakrti says > > to purusa "nasmi naham na me." More on this at my website > > braindance.us, see the East-West Psychology page. > > > > Al Collins > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jkirk > > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:27 am > > Subject: Re: introduction and a question > > > > > Posted by Joanna Kirkpatrick > > > > > > Perhaps you are thinking of the famous death poems of Zen monks > > > and other > > > poets in Japan? Like Saigyo's death poem, written perhaps a decade > > > earlieraccording to La Fleur, 2003 (his translation): > > > > > > Let it be in spring > > > and under the cherry blossoms that > > > I die, while the moon > > > is perfect at midmonth, like > > > it was for his peaceful passing. (refers to the Buddha, of course) > > > > > > ========= > > > > > > > Yes, thank you, that is certainly the sort of poem I remembered. > > > I don't > > > think it is the same one, but of the same genre. Thanks again, > > > > > > > > Al Collins > > > > > > > > > > From gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET Fri Dec 19 01:47:31 2003 From: gthomgt at ADELPHIA.NET (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 03 20:47:31 -0500 Subject: On the Scandal of Soma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073640.23782.13315986835126759839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [forwarded from Lars Martin Fosse's email list, with apologies to those who may receive it twice: Dear List, Last year I was invited by the editors of a new journal on traditional Indian modes of thought to write an article for their next issue. This journal is intended to introduce a general audience to the whole range of darshanas, with special attention to yoga. Several scholars have been invited to write non-technical introductions to these traditions, alongside of articles by yogic practitioners, photographic essays on traditional holy sites, etc. Well, it was decided by the editors that an accessible article on Soma would be of interest to its intended audience. And so I set out to do something that I had never done before: to write something for a general audience instead of for other scholars. It took me a long time to find the right tone and diction. The tone and diction of the academic lecture or paper was not wanted. Footnotes were discouraged. Well, I tried to write an article about Soma that was informal but serious. I briefly contrasted the yoga traditions, which I consider to be indigenous to the Indian subcontinent and not readily apparent in oldest Vedic, with the Soma tradition, which clearly isn't indigenous at all but obviously very evident in the Rgveda. I gently gave the Indo-European and Central Asian background to some of the material, sprinkled in Avestan cognates in order to show the Indo-Iranian origins of some things, and pointed out the absence of Avestan cognates in other cases to show that other things were more likely to be indigenous. And I concluded by presenting a translation [along with the Sanskrit text, which the editors insisted on] of a famous Soma hymn, Rgveda 10.119, which I have lectured on in many places, and written about in a recent issue of the "Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies." Well, it was a pleasure to learn that the editors, and others among whom the article circulated, enjoyed the paper very much. And so the work of editing, re-formatting diacritics, proofreading galleys, etc. proceeded, and the paper was due to be published this month. Last week, I received a telephone call from one of the editors, who by the sound of his voice seemed to be quite agitated. Apparently, within a few days of publication, and after having held the article for about five months, the editors had decided that a few references in the article to nativist historians and their revisionist views of India as the cradle of civilization were a 'serious digression' which needed to be edited out of my article. When I pointed out that my remarks on yoga were also a digression, the rather nervous fellow suggested that some digressions were more appreciated than others. Well, to be brief, the editors did want to publish the article, but they didn't want to deal with 'undocumented charges' against 'nativist historians' [and they were terrified of stirring up 'controversy'] Of course, when I gladly offered to document the charges [regarding recent attacks on Romila Thapar and the Rajaram Harappan horse hoax] my offer was politely rejected. So, not as averse to controversy as they, I decided to publish the article elsewhere. The point of this anecdote is this: I am utterly persuaded that these editors, apparently innocent -- until recently -- of any knowledge of the Hindutva culture wars, had been informed by someone with influence on them, in the final stages of the editorial process, that reference to such things as the vicious attack on Thapar and Rajaram's fraud, was politically incorrect. So, if in fact the Hindutva-vadins are winning the culture war against 'Western Orientalists', it is not simply because scholars have not tried to reach a broader non-academic audience. Think of Michael Witzel's efforts [along with Steve's] to confront the Hindutva propaganda-war in various public places. Well, for the moment, my effort to confront this propaganda-machine has been thwarted. But I have decided to find some other place to publish my 'Soma for the Masses' article, perhaps with some discussion of the politics involved in the matter. In any case, I believe that we have to work harder to get the message out that scholars are not "evil-doers," to use the favorite term of the idiot who is presently the president of my country. It may well be necessary to bring this 'controversy' to the attention of more right-minded people, who will otherwise remain unaware of it. Best wishes, George Thompson From swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM Thu Dec 18 17:21:34 2003 From: swantam at ASIANETINDIA.COM (Maheswaran Nair) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 03 22:21:34 +0500 Subject: introduction and a question Message-ID: <161227073634.23782.17016114578458961107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to know more about Sri Atmananda (Krsna Menon).Though I am here in Trivandrum I have no connection with anyone knowing him. Thanks in advance. K.Maheswaran Nair University of Kerala Trivandrum ----- Original Message ----- From: Alfred Collins Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 11:41 pm Subject: Re: introduction and a question > Re the Zen reference, Yes, I think I was confabulating Chinese and > Indian texts, perhaps because the liminal feeling is similar. My > interest is in this very special moment on the verge, which seems > to open the possibility of an enlightenment that endures in life, > which of course is fundamental in Zen. I think this is imagined > in the Vrindavan world, and what Sri Atmananda (Krsna Menon) > called "the world between the guru and disciple," (his Malayalam > Radhamadhavam): a third realm distinct from ordinary life and > moksa. I talked about this at Madison this year in connection to > psychoanalysis, but left out the poem I am now searching for, > obviously! My main text was the Samkhya Karika where prakrti says > to purusa "nasmi naham na me." More on this at my website > braindance.us, see the East-West Psychology page. > > Al Collins > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jkirk > Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:27 am > Subject: Re: introduction and a question > > > Posted by Joanna Kirkpatrick > > > > Perhaps you are thinking of the famous death poems of Zen monks > > and other > > poets in Japan? Like Saigyo's death poem, written perhaps a decade > > earlieraccording to La Fleur, 2003 (his translation): > > > > Let it be in spring > > and under the cherry blossoms that > > I die, while the moon > > is perfect at midmonth, like > > it was for his peaceful passing. (refers to the Buddha, of course) > > > > ========= > > > > > Yes, thank you, that is certainly the sort of poem I remembered. > > I don't > > think it is the same one, but of the same genre. Thanks again, > > > > > > Al Collins > > > > > > From zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Fri Dec 19 10:29:49 2003 From: zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 03 11:29:49 +0100 Subject: On the Scandal of Soma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227073643.23782.18378581068186699214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Freitag, 19. Dezember 2003 02:47 schrieb George Thompson: > Last year I was invited by the editors of a new journal on > traditional Indian modes of thought to write an article for their > next issue. This journal is intended to introduce a general audience > to the whole range of darshanas, [...] > The point of this anecdote is this: I am utterly persuaded that these > editors, apparently innocent -- until recently -- of any knowledge of > the Hindutva culture wars, had been informed by someone with > influence on them, in the final stages of the editorial process, that > reference to such things as the vicious attack on Thapar and > Rajaram's fraud, was politically incorrect. [...] George: Perhaps it is in order here to be a little less polite and inform us which journal this is. That would (a) perhaps give us a clue as to who is pressuring the journal, (b) tell us which journal not to waste our time on. > Best wishes, RZ -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie Universit?t M?nchen From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Dec 19 12:12:37 2003 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 03 12:12:37 +0000 Subject: lecturership in Sanskrit (fwd) Message-ID: <161227073646.23782.9649185468557000104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:08:54 -0500 From: Rosane Rocher Subject: lecturership in Sanskrit Dear colleagues and friends, Would you kindly inform potential candidates of the following announcement? SANSKRIT and SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES The Department of South Asia Studies at the University of Pennsylvania invites applications for a one-year lecturership, renewable for a second year subject to satisfactory performance, to teach Sanskrit as well as courses on ancient Indian History and Culture. The teaching load is three courses per semester, two of which will be elementary and intermediate Sanskrit, the third to be decided in accordance with the successful candidate's skills and areas of interest. Review of applications begins on February 1, 2004. Short-listed candidates will be interviewed in March 2004. Please address applications, including an up-to-date CV, sample publications, a statement of research interests, and the names of three referees with their U.S. mail and e-mail addresses to: Chair, Sanskrit Search Committee, Department of South Asia Studies, 3600 Market Street, Suite 501B, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104. Qualifications: A Ph.D. in Sanskrit or a related field is preferred but not required; ABD candidates will be seriously considered. Salary will be commensurate with qualifications and experience. The University of Pennsylvania is an Equal Opportunity Affirmative Action Employer; women and minority candidates are strongly encouraged to apply. All best wishes, Rosane 72df17.jpg72df3f.jpg Rosane Rocher Professor of South Asian Studies (on leave 2003-2004) From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Dec 30 20:26:35 2003 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 03 15:26:35 -0500 Subject: help with Simhala script ms Message-ID: <161227073649.23782.15581676982511465703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another library has sent me photocopies of two pages of a Simhala script palmleaf manuscript, whose contents they have no idea of. Our Simhala cataloger is unable to read it. The script is highly cursive but to my eye neat and potentially legible. Is there anyone who could help the library find out what it is so that it may be cataloged? Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Asian Division Library of Congress Jefferson Building 150 101 Independence Ave., S.E. Washington, DC 20540-4810 tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library of Congress. From jkirk at SPRO.NET Wed Dec 31 18:56:34 2003 From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 03 11:56:34 -0700 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227073652.23782.474292438220117339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings of the season, dear Indologues, Is there anyone on the list who recites Vedas or Upanishads in Sanskrit, who has an appealing voice (not like Henry Kissinger, e.g.), and who may have made tapes of him or herself reciting? Please reply to me off list. I hope someone is out there who has done this. Please advise and thanks. All best wishes, Joanna Kirkpatrick