From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Nov  1 16:46:59 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 02 11:46:59 -0500
Subject: Buddhist verses
Message-ID: <161227071578.23782.18415669993795482207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Your first citation seems to refer to parts of verse 5, 1st Kozasthaana of Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakoza:
        anaasravaa maargasatyam trividham caapy asamsk.rtam /
        aakaazam dvau nirodhau ca tatraakaazam anaav.rti.h //
My edition of the work does not have a verse index, but check this text for other passages as well.
                                                Madhav Deshpande

> ----------
> From:         NKP verra
> Reply To:     Indology
> Sent:         Friday, November 1, 2002 6:08 AM
> To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject:           Buddhist verses
> 
> I am not able to find a few Buddhist verses quoted in Nyaayasudhaa (NS) of Jayatirtha. Edition published by  Uttaradimatha 1982 onwords.
> 
> I hope somebody of you will help me.
> Verses are> -> 
> 
> aakaa> "> sau dvau nirodhau ca nitya.m trayam amsa.msk.rta.m/ (NS  p.3849)
> 
> pradiipasyeva nirvaa.nam aa> "> srayas tasya taayina.h/ (NS  p.3895)
> 
> jaa.dyasa.mv.rtidu.hkhaantapuurvado.savirodhi yat/ (NS  p.3074)
> 
> sahopala.mbhaniyamaadabhedo niilataddhiyo.h/ (NS  p.3978)
> 
> bhedas tu bhraantibuddyaiva d.r> "> sytendauvivaadvaye/ (NS  p.3981)
> 
> also one verse from Vi.s.nutattvanirnayatiikaa (VTNT) of Jayatirtha Madhvaraaddhaantasa.mvardhaka sabhaa edition.
> 
> buddhipuurvavinaa> "> so hi pratisa.mkhyaanirodhagii.h/ (VTNT.p.205)
> 
> 
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> 
> 




From harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU  Fri Nov  1 18:33:07 2002
From: harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Harunaga Isaacson)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 02 13:33:07 -0500
Subject: Buddhist verses
In-Reply-To: <60D386B60521234BB917967801F3A30F2A4A70@lsa-m4.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071580.23782.4369954853715335702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Quoting Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU>:

> Your first citation seems to refer to parts of verse 5, 1st Kozasthaana of
> Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakoza:
>         anaasravaa maargasatyam trividham caapy asamsk.rtam /
>         aakaazam dvau nirodhau ca tatraakaazam anaav.rti.h //

aakaa"sa.m (NKP verra's aakaa"sau was I suppose a typo) dvau nirodhau ca 
nitya.m trayam asa.msk.rtam is exactly  J~naanasaarasamuccaya 21ab (though I 
wouldn't exclude that there might be earlier occurrences). (See K. Mimaki's 
contribution to Jonathan A. Silk (ed.): Wisdom, Compassion, and the Search for 
Understanding: The Buddhist Studies Legacy of Gadjin M. Nagao. Honolulu 2000.) 
I have seen some other citations of the line (and of the whole verse) in 
Buddhist tantric texts.

> sahopala.mbhaniyamaadabhedo niilataddhiyo.h/ (NS  p.3978)

This famous, very often quoted, line is Pramaa.navini"scaya 1.55ab.

Aside from the Abhidharmako"sa, the other text that NKP verra should check is 
the Tattvasa.mgraha of "Saantarak.sita. 

> buddhipuurvavinaa?so hi pratisa.mkhyaanirodhagii.h/ (VTNT.p.205)

for instance looks like a variant (or corruption) of Tattvasa.mgraha 2323cd. 

Excuse brevity of reply and incompleteness of bibliographical references, due 
to lack of time.
 
Harunaga Isaacson




From veerankp at SIFY.COM  Fri Nov  1 11:08:08 2002
From: veerankp at SIFY.COM (NKP verra)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 02 17:08:08 +0600
Subject: Buddhist verses
Message-ID: <161227071574.23782.602570625863973203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not able to find a few Buddhist verses quoted in Nyaayasudhaa (NS) of Jayatirtha. Edition published by  Uttaradimatha 1982 onwords.

I hope somebody of you will help me.
Verses are?

aakaa?sau dvau nirodhau ca nitya.m trayam amsa.msk.rta.m/ (NS  p.3849)

pradiipasyeva nirvaa.nam aa?srayas tasya taayina.h/ (NS  p.3895)

jaa.dyasa.mv.rtidu.hkhaantapuurvado.savirodhi yat/ (NS  p.3074)

sahopala.mbhaniyamaadabhedo niilataddhiyo.h/ (NS  p.3978)

bhedas tu bhraantibuddyaiva d.r?sytendauvivaadvaye/ (NS  p.3981)

also one verse from Vi.s.nutattvanirnayatiikaa (VTNT) of Jayatirtha Madhvaraaddhaantasa.mvardhaka sabhaa edition.

buddhipuurvavinaa?so hi pratisa.mkhyaanirodhagii.h/ (VTNT.p.205)


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From veerankp at SIFY.COM  Fri Nov  1 11:15:34 2002
From: veerankp at SIFY.COM (NKP verra)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 02 17:15:34 +0600
Subject: Subject Buddhist verses
Message-ID: <161227071576.23782.11614299047426008199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not able to find a few Buddhist verses quoted in Nyaayasudhaa (NS) of
Jayatirtha. Edition published by  Uttaradimatha 1982 onwords.

I hope somebody of you will help me.
Verses are?

aakaa?sau dvau nirodhau ca nitya.m trayam amsa.msk.rta.m/ (NS  p.3849)

pradiipasyeva nirvaa.nam aa?srayas tasya taayina.h/ (NS  p.3895)

jaa.dyasa.mv.rtidu.hkhaantapuurvado.savirodhi yat/ (NS  p.3074)

sahopala.mbhaniyamaadabhedo niilataddhiyo.h/ (NS  p.3978)

bhedas tu bhraantibuddyaiva d.r?sytendauvivaadvaye/ (NS  p.3981)

also one verse from Vi.s.nutattvanirnayatiikaa (VTNT) of Jayatirtha
Madhvaraaddhaantasa.mvardhaka sabhaa edition.

buddhipuurvavinaa?so hi pratisa.mkhyaanirodhagii.h/ (VTNT.p.205)

veeranarayana


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From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Fri Nov  1 19:31:23 2002
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 02 20:31:23 +0100
Subject: Buddhist verses
In-Reply-To: <1036175587.3dc2c8e31b699@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071582.23782.14575166153013079054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--On Freitag, 1. November 2002 13:33 -0500 Harunaga Isaacson 
<harunaga at SAS.UPENN.EDU> wrote:

> aakaa"sa.m (NKP verra's aakaa"sau was I suppose a typo) dvau nirodhau ca
> nitya.m trayam asa.msk.rtam is exactly  J~naanasaarasamuccaya 21ab
> (though I  wouldn't exclude that there might be earlier occurrences).
> (See K. Mimaki's  contribution to Jonathan A. Silk (ed.): Wisdom,
> Compassion, and the Search for  Understanding: The Buddhist Studies
> Legacy of Gadjin M. Nagao. Honolulu 2000.)  I have seen some other
> citations of the line (and of the whole verse) in  Buddhist tantric texts.

Add to which, the Tibetan text of the JJAnasArasamuccaya, together with 
Sanskrit fragments (like this one) and a French translation can be found in 
an earlier publication by Mimaki: "La r?futation bouddhique de la 
permanence des choses (sthirasiddhidUSana) et la preuve de la momentan?it? 
des choses (kSaNabhaGgasiddhi)", Coll?ge de France, PICI fasc. 41, Paris, 
1976.

Best regards,

Birgit Kellner




From indologia at LATINMAIL.COM  Sat Nov  2 03:22:46 2002
From: indologia at LATINMAIL.COM (humanidades India)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 02 22:22:46 -0500
Subject: Looking???
Message-ID: <161227071584.23782.5748587336448582577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My dear Sirs:
Namaste. I am looking references about the Sabaras people and Pulkasas. Some of your erudite  persons had references of them??
Are they mentioned in the Mahabharata? could your send the number of quotes??? geographical ubiactions, etc???
Atently
Horacio Francisco Arganis
U A de C.


_________________________________________________________
http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.




From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET  Sat Nov  2 08:08:08 2002
From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 02 08:08:08 +0000
Subject: Looking???
In-Reply-To: <20021102032244.8D0D83BA280@smtp.latinmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227071586.23782.7236845316095411925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr Arganis

"Paulkasa" is mentioned, paired with "CaNDAla", in bRhadAraNyaka
upaniSad IV.3.22.

I presume you are already using the mAnavadharmazAstra.

>My dear Sirs:

Please note that some of us "Sirs" are "Madams"!

Dr Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

>Namaste. I am looking references about the Sabaras people and
>Pulkasas. Some of your erudite  persons had references of them??
>Are they mentioned in the Mahabharata? could your send the number of
>quotes??? geographical ubiactions, etc???
>Atently
>Horacio Francisco Arganis
>U A de C.
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Sat Nov  2 13:36:31 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 02 08:36:31 -0500
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
Message-ID: <161227071589.23782.9746316287161075889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell, there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.  Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any suggestions are welcome.

                                                                          Madhav Deshpande




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Sat Nov  2 14:39:58 2002
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 02 08:39:58 -0600
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
In-Reply-To: <60D386B60521234BB917967801F3A30F2A4A73@lsa-m4.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071590.23782.4909768891899941351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav:

I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.


The reference to the Chinese with the work c?na is problematic. The
term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
?China?, like ?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as c?na came to be
known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
began to flourish.

We do have, however, the mention of ?aka in the compound ?akayavana
by Pata?jali (on P??ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
we have the progression from yavana in P??ini, to yavana and ?aka in
Pata?jali, to yavana, ?aka, and c?na in the MDh and the Mah?bh?rata.

I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
evidence to the contrary.

Patrick

>A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
>references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
>there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
>Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
>for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
>from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
>references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
>Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
>times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
>references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
>suggestions are welcome.
>
>
>Madhav Deshpande




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Sat Nov  2 15:21:27 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 02 10:21:27 -0500
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
Message-ID: <161227071593.23782.15196352479985364566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Patrick.  This would be certainly useful to my colleague.

                                        Madhav

> ----------
> From:         Patrick Olivelle
> Reply To:     Indology
> Sent:         Saturday, November 2, 2002 9:39 AM
> To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject:           Re: References to China in Sanskrit lit
> 
> Madhav:
> 
> I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
> append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.
> 
> 
> The reference to the Chinese with the work c> "> na is problematic. The
> term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
> probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
> Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
> the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
> older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
> time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
> Z?China?, like Z?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
> the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
> Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as"c> "> na came to be
> known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
> earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
> been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
> little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
> began to flourish.
> 
> We do have, however, the mention o- > -> aka in the compoun- > -> akayavana
> by Pata?jali (on Py?z?ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
> in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
> we have the progression from yavana in Py?z?ini, to yavan- and > -> aka in
> Pata?jali, to ya-ana, > -> aka,"and c> "> na in the MDh and the Mahy?bhy?rata.
> 
> I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
> expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
> 1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
> evidence to the contrary.
> 
> Patrick
> 
> >A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
> >references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
> >there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
> >Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
> >for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
> >from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
> >references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
> >Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
> >times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
> >references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
> >suggestions are welcome.
> >
> >
> >Madhav Deshpande
> 
> 




From beitel at GWU.EDU  Sat Nov  2 16:24:35 2002
From: beitel at GWU.EDU (beitel)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 02 11:24:35 -0500
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
Message-ID: <161227071595.23782.8562662012791234857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For some reflections that preceded the previous debate on INDOLOGY, see also
my Rethinking the Mahabharata (2001), pp. 29-31.

Alf Hiltebeitel


>===== Original Message From Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> =====
>Thanks, Patrick.  This would be certainly useful to my colleague.
>
>                                        Madhav
>
>> ----------
>> From:         Patrick Olivelle
>> Reply To:     Indology
>> Sent:         Saturday, November 2, 2002 9:39 AM
>> To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>> Subject:           Re: References to China in Sanskrit lit
>>
>> Madhav:
>>
>> I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
>> append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.
>>
>>
>> The reference to the Chinese with the work c> "> na is problematic. The
>> term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
>> probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
>> Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
>> the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
>> older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
>> time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
>> Z?China?, like Z?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
>> the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
>> Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as"c> "> na came to be
>> known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
>> earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
>> been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
>> little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
>> began to flourish.
>>
>> We do have, however, the mention o- > -> aka in the compoun- > -> akayavana
>> by Pata?jali (on Py?z?ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
>> in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
>> we have the progression from yavana in Py?z?ini, to yavan- and > -> aka in
>> Pata?jali, to ya-ana, > -> aka,"and c> "> na in the MDh and the
Mahy?bhy?rata.
>>
>> I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
>> expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
>> 1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
>> evidence to the contrary.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> >A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
>> >references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
>> >there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
>> >Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
>> >for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
>> >from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
>> >references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
>> >Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
>> >times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
>> >references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
>> >suggestions are welcome.
>> >
>> >
>> >Madhav Deshpande
>>
>>




From lel at LEL.MSK.RU  Sat Nov  2 22:11:46 2002
From: lel at LEL.MSK.RU (Lielukhine D.N.)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 02 01:11:46 +0300
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
In-Reply-To: <p05100362b9e9926ab2d6@[66\.136\.200\.17]>
Message-ID: <161227071597.23782.11084101045058369450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

But what about Kautilya Arthashastra (I AD):

02.11.114 ciinapaTTaaZca ciinabhuumijaa ?

China, in my mind, must be known in India 100-200 years before

D.Lielukhine

PO> Madhav:

PO> I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
PO> append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.


PO> The reference to the Chinese with the work c?na is problematic. The
PO> term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
PO> probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
PO> Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
PO> the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
PO> older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
PO> time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
PO> ?China?, like ?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
PO> the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
PO> Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as c?na came to be
PO> known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
PO> earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
PO> been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
PO> little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
PO> began to flourish.

PO> We do have, however, the mention of ?aka in the compound ?akayavana
PO> by Pata?jali (on P??ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
PO> in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
PO> we have the progression from yavana in P??ini, to yavana and ?aka in
PO> Pata?jali, to yavana, ?aka, and c?na in the MDh and the Mah?bh?rata.

PO> I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
PO> expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
PO> 1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
PO> evidence to the contrary.

PO> Patrick

>>A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
>>references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
>>there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
>>Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
>>for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
>>from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
>>references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
>>Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
>>times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
>>references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
>>suggestions are welcome.
>>
>>
>>Madhav Deshpande



--
Best regards,
 Lielukhine                            mailto:lel at lel.msk.ru




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Sun Nov  3 21:59:06 2002
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 02 15:59:06 -0600
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
In-Reply-To: <11137027801.20021103011146@lel.msk.ru>
Message-ID: <161227071599.23782.17575851341005342283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not sure what you mean by "100-200 years before"  - before what?
Clearly the Artha cannot be dated, at least as  we have it, to a time
long before 1st cent BCE, which would be the upper limit -- I think
-- for "ciina" in India.

Patrick



>But what about Kautilya Arthashastra (I AD):
>
>02.11.114 ciinapaTTaaZca ciinabhuumijaa ?
>
>China, in my mind, must be known in India 100-200 years before
>
>D.Lielukhine
>
>PO> Madhav:
>
>PO> I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
>PO> append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.
>
>
>PO> The reference to the Chinese with the work c?na is problematic. The
>PO> term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
>PO> probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
>PO> Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
>PO> the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
>PO> older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
>PO> time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
>PO> ?China?, like ?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
>PO> the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
>PO> Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as c?na came to be
>PO> known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
>PO> earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
>PO> been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
>PO> little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
>PO> began to flourish.
>
>PO> We do have, however, the mention of ?aka in the compound ?akayavana
>PO> by Pata?jali (on P??ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
>PO> in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
>PO> we have the progression from yavana in P??ini, to yavana and ?aka in
>PO> Pata?jali, to yavana, ?aka, and c?na in the MDh and the Mah?bh?rata.
>
>PO> I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
>PO> expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
>PO> 1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
>PO> evidence to the contrary.
>
>PO> Patrick
>
>>>A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
>>>references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
>>>there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
>>>Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
>>>for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
>>>from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
>>>references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
>>>Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
>>>times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
>>>references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
>>>suggestions are welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>Madhav Deshpande
>
>
>
>--
>Best regards,
>  Lielukhine                            mailto:lel at lel.msk.ru




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Nov  4 17:09:26 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 02 17:09:26 +0000
Subject: Yigal Bronner
Message-ID: <161227071602.23782.16561198026260508534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have added new documents to the INDOLOGY website (www.indology.org.uk)
concerning Yigal Bronner.

DW




From indologia at LATINMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  5 01:20:10 2002
From: indologia at LATINMAIL.COM (humanidades India)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 02 20:20:10 -0500
Subject: Rig Veda
Message-ID: <161227071604.23782.424749097074431257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends:
I am looking the web site of Dr. Talegeri historical analysis of Rig Veda??
Do you know this place???
Horacio F. Arganis
U A de C
www.uadec.mx


_________________________________________________________
http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Tue Nov  5 08:47:11 2002
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 03:47:11 -0500
Subject: Rig Veda
Message-ID: <161227071606.23782.5699559348002146581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You can find online versions of his books at www.voi.org which will forward
you to http://www.bharatvani.org/

The specific book you are looking for is at:
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/rig/

To my knowledge, Shrikant Talageri not a Dr. but a bank clerk.

It would also be useful to read Dr. Michael Witzel's review of Talageri's
book at:
http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0702/ejvs0702a.txt for the first of 3
parts in HTML format
or
http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0702/ejvs0702article.pdf
for the whole thing in PDF format.

Talageri wrote a response to Witzel although I don't have a reference for
it.

I think you will find it a rather, uh, interesting exchange.

Dean Anderson, PhD


----- Original Message -----
From: "humanidades India" <indologia at LATINMAIL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:20 PM
Subject: Rig Veda


> Dear Friends:
> I am looking the web site of Dr. Talegeri historical analysis of Rig
Veda??
> Do you know this place???
> Horacio F. Arganis
> U A de C
> www.uadec.mx
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.
>




From nattier at HAWAII.EDU  Tue Nov  5 21:28:37 2002
From: nattier at HAWAII.EDU (Jan Nattier)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 11:28:37 -1000
Subject: bhagavat
In-Reply-To: <000c01c28503$ed370fc0$2402a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227071615.23782.5370745273823964244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For a paper on the so-called "ten epithets" of the Buddha in
early Chinese translations, I would appreciate hearing whether
any of the list members have ever seen an explanation of the
meaning of this term as "world-honored one" (or anything
close) in any Indian source (not necessarily Buddhist).

with thanks in advance,
Jan Nattier




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Nov  5 12:05:31 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 12:05:31 +0000
Subject: conference announcement (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071608.23782.3029638482057053864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 10:40:04 -0500
From: Joseph S. Alter <jsalter+ at pitt.edu>
Subject: conference



        http://www.ucis.pitt.edu/asianmedicine

Please click on the above link for information on a conference called Asian
Medicine: Nationalism, Transnationalism and the Politics of Culture being
held at the University of Pittsburgh, Nov. 14, 15, 16.




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Tue Nov  5 19:45:41 2002
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 14:45:41 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071610.23782.16880949307762622959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mallory and Mair say in page 171 of _The Tarim Mummies_ that:

"It might be recalled that the Buddha was Zakyamuni ('Sage of the Zakyas',
i.e. the Sakas) and, within an Indic context, Buddhism was a kind of
'Iranian heresy'."

I have never heard of Buddha's teaching linked with Iranians -- at least
during his lifetime. Is this true?

Dean Anderson, PhD




From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  5 23:29:20 2002
From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 15:29:20 -0800
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071616.23782.6459435312441197010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I agree with John Huntington (below) that Mair & Mallory's statement as
quoted (I hope not out of context!) is way beyond the pale. But it should
also be pointed out that an Iranian component in some forms of Buddhism is
not out of the question, though controversial. A sober treatment of the
issue is David Alan Scott's "The Iranian Face of Buddhism," in East and West
n.s. 40 (1990): 43-77.

Richard Salomon

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Huntington" <huntington.2 at OSU.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?


> >Mallory and Mair say in page 171 of _The Tarim Mummies_ that:
> >
> >"It might be recalled that the Buddha was Zakyamuni ('Sage of the
Zakyas',
> >i.e. the Sakas) and, within an Indic context, Buddhism was a kind of
> >'Iranian heresy'."
> >
> >I have never heard of Buddha's teaching linked with Iranians -- at least
> >during his lifetime. Is this true?
> >
> >Dean Anderson, PhD
>
>
>
>
> I am afraid that this belongs in the same pile as the "Orissa as the
> Birthplace of the Buddha' theory
>
> John C. Huntington
>




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Tue Nov  5 21:09:36 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 16:09:36 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c28503$ed370fc0$2402a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227071612.23782.4557874912090199759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Mallory and Mair say in page 171 of _The Tarim Mummies_ that:
>
>"It might be recalled that the Buddha was Zakyamuni ('Sage of the Zakyas',
>i.e. the Sakas) and, within an Indic context, Buddhism was a kind of
>'Iranian heresy'."
>
>I have never heard of Buddha's teaching linked with Iranians -- at least
>during his lifetime. Is this true?
>
>Dean Anderson, PhD




I am afraid that this belongs in the same pile as the "Orissa as the
Birthplace of the Buddha' theory

John C. Huntington




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Tue Nov  5 23:51:13 2002
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 16:51:13 -0700
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071621.23782.8559488043171309231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See for a start
Boyce, Mary. A history of Zoroastrianism. 3rd impression, with corrections.
Leiden ; New York : E.J. Brill, 1996,
and other works by Boyce--as I recall, she somewhere mentions possible
influences or at least parallels to Buddhism and includes references. I
don't know if anything more recent has appeared.
Joanna Kirkpatrick
==============================================

----- Original Message -----
From: <dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 12:45 PM
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?


> Mallory and Mair say in page 171 of _The Tarim Mummies_ that:
>
> "It might be recalled that the Buddha was Zakyamuni ('Sage of the Zakyas',
> i.e. the Sakas) and, within an Indic context, Buddhism was a kind of
> 'Iranian heresy'."
>
> I have never heard of Buddha's teaching linked with Iranians -- at least
> during his lifetime. Is this true?
>
> Dean Anderson, PhD
>




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Nov  6 00:37:23 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 19:37:23 -0500
Subject: bhagavat
Message-ID: <161227071623.23782.862210059426749018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Certainly should take into account the use of bhagavat in the Bhagavadgiitaa to refer to teacher-god Krishna, in the Jain canonical literature to refer to Mahaaviira, and the occasional use of this term to refer to respected teachers in the Upani.sads.  In later Hindu texts the words bhqagavat and the feminine bhagavatii are routinely used to refer to gods and goddesses.  The Vaishnava use of the term bhaagavata as a devotee of bhagavat (= Vishnu) is attested in inscriptions, and is attested in the title of the Bhaagavata-Puraa.na.  There is a late traditional verse explaining the meaning of the term bhaga in bhagavat:

        aizvaryasya samagrasya viiryasya yazasa.h zriya.h /
        j~naanavairaagyayoz caiva .sa.n.naam bhaga itiira.naa //

The term bhaga, according to this verse, has six meanings:  complete (ruler-like) prosperity, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and dispassionate nature.  So a person endowed with these is termed bhagavat.  The earlier usage is probably also related to the respectful address form bhago cited in Panini, and bhagava.h found in the Upani.sads.

                                                        Madhav Deshpande

> ----------
> From:         Jan Nattier
> Reply To:     Indology
> Sent:         Tuesday, November 5, 2002 4:28 PM
> To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject:           bhagavat
> 
> For a paper on the so-called "ten epithets" of the Buddha in
> early Chinese translations, I would appreciate hearing whether
> any of the list members have ever seen an explanation of the
> meaning of this term as "world-honored one" (or anything
> close) in any Indian source (not necessarily Buddhist).
> 
> with thanks in advance,
> Jan Nattier
> 
> 




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Wed Nov  6 01:08:12 2002
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 20:08:12 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071625.23782.14866145529054356721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the replies!

No, I don't think I got it out of context although he does just drop it as
an aside in the middle of a paragraph. It surprised me because Mallory tends
to usually adhere rather closely to mainstream opinions. Since the book is
not intended for a purely scholarly audience, there is unfortunately no
reference as to why he says this. I'll have to look up the Boyce reference.

I could certainly see how there might have been Iranian influence in later
Buddhism as it travelled out of NW India into Central Asia but this would be
so much later that there wouldn't be any relation between Zakyamuni and the
Sakas. In any case, I can't see anything in early Buddhism that can't be
attributed to the Indian milieu of its birth.

Now this has me doubting Mallory. Buddhism is not my designated field of
obsession.  Just to confirm what he says: is it generally accepted that
Buddhism left India via the NW and entered Central Asia and from there to
the Tarim basin and that the Chinese got it from that direction?

Dean Anderson




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov  6 02:51:47 2002
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 02 21:51:47 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c28503$ed370fc0$2402a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227071627.23782.10802810177174061587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 5 Nov 2002 dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG wrote:

> Mallory and Mair say in page 171 of _The Tarim Mummies_ that:
>
> "It might be recalled that the Buddha was Zakyamuni ('Sage of the Zakyas',
> i.e. the Sakas) and, within an Indic context, Buddhism was a kind of
> 'Iranian heresy'."



Well, in spite of some (expected) denials on the list:

Victor Mair and I have talked about this problem some years ago. I have
now summed up a few of my points (not comprehensively yet!) in a brief
History of Old India, in press at Munich, to be out in March:

(Machine translation of the German text added):


(a) Intro:  Late Vedic immigration of "western" tribes into Bihar:


... Ferner kann der Stammesname des Buddha, Sakya (Skt. Shakya) der erst
nachvedisch im Palikanon (ca. 250 v. Chr.) belegt ist, nicht von der
Eigenbenennung der noerdlichen Iranier (Saka) getrennt werden, die sonst
aber erst nach 140 v. Chr. ueber Sistan nach Indien gekommen sind.  Die
Sakya stehen jedoch nicht allein da.


(( Furthermore the tribal name of the Buddha, Sakya (Skt. Shakya),
attested only in post-Vedic times, in the Pali canon (approx. 250 BC), can
not be seperated from the self-designation of the northern Iranians
(Saka), who otherwise entered India only after 140 BC., via Sistan. ))


Wie schon erwaehnt, muss man auch waehrend der vedischen Periode staendig
mit Neuankoemmlingen aus Iran und Afghanistan, wie den mittelvedisch
belegten Salva, rechnen. Westliche Einwanderer in den Osten sind die
Malla, die fuer das Jaiminiya-Brahmana noch in der Wueste von Rajasthan
wohnten, und die Vriji (Pali Vajji), die der Grammatiker Panini (ca. 400
v. Chr.) noch als einen Stamm in der Indusebene kannte.

((As already mentioned, one must constantly expect, also during the Vedic
period,  newcomers from Iran and Afghanistan, like the Salva, attested in
middle Vedic. Western immigrants into the east are the Malla, who
lived, acc. to  the Jaiminiya Brahmana, still in the desert of Rajasthan,
and the Vriji (Pali Vajji), whom the grammarian Panini (approx. 400 BC)
still knew as a tribe in the Indus plains.  ))


Beide erscheinen in den Pali-Texten als Nachbarn der Sakya, sind also wohl
erst gegen Ende der vedischen Zeit in den Osten, in die Gegend der
vedischen Koenigreiche Kosala und Videha einwandert... Im Palikanon treten
dort eine ganze Reihe von oligarchisch regierten Staemmen auf, die
teilweise in der Vajji-Konfderation zusammengefasst sind. Im Vajji-Bund
waren die Videha aber nur einer von vielen Staemmen.  ...


((Both appear in the Pali texts as neighbours of the Sakya, thus probably
have immigrated only towards the end of vedic period into the east, into
the area of the vedic kingdoms of Kosala and Videha... In the Pali canon
appear a number of oligarchically  governed tribes that are
partly combined in the Vajji confederation. In the Vajji confederation the
Videha were, however, only one of many tribes. ...))





(b) The peculiarities of the Sakya:

...  Dazu kommen noch einige, durch das ploetzliche Auftreten der Sakya in
Bihar fast zu erwartende iranische Anklaenge. Sie sind aber von der
Forschung bisher ebenfalls ganz vernachlaessigt worden und sollen hier nur
stichwortartig genannt werden:

((In addition, there are some Iranian resemblances which can be expected
because of the sudden occurrence of the Sakya in Bihar. They were,
however, completely neglected by research so far, and will only be
enumarated here summarily: ))


Der Name der Sakya selbst sowie der einiger spaetvedischer Koenige und
Adligen (Balhika Pratipiya, Cakra Sthapati, was an die ostiranischen
Landschaften Baktrien und Caxra erinnert); die legendaere Sakya-Sitte,
urspruenglich wie im fruehen Iran nur Schwestern zu heiraten;  die in den
Upanishaden zuerst auftretende Idee vom Abwiegen der Schuld (zuerst
aegyptisch, dann zoroastrisch, iranisch); die runden Grabhuegel der
oestlichen Voelker, die an die zentralasiatischen Kurgans erinnern, u.dgl.

((The name of the Sakya themselves, as well as that of some late vedic
kings and nobles (Balhika Pratipya, Cakra Sthapati, which reminds of the
east Iranian lands of Bactria and Caxra); the legendary Sakya custom of
originally marrying, as in early Iran, only their sisters; the idea of
weighing one's guilt, first found in the Upanishads, (first Egyptian, then
Zoroastrian, Iranian); the round grave mounds [[= stupa]] of the eastern
peoples, that remind of the central Asian kurgans, etc.))


Jede Tatsache besagt fuer sich genommen nicht viel, aber zusammengenommen
sind sie doch auffaellig. Wahrscheinlich haben wir es hier mit einem
spaetvedischen iranischen Einfluss zu tun, so wie er sich etwa tausend
Jahre spaeter mit den zoroastrisch gepraegten Bhoja-Brahmanen in Bihar
wiederholt hat.

((Each fact does not mean much by itself, but when collected they are
nevertheless remarkable. Probably we have to see here late vedic Iranian
influence, as it repeated about a thousand years later with the
Zoroastrian-like Bhoja Brahmanen in Bihar.))

====

Hope this opens a new vista for the period JUST BEFORE the time of
the Buddha. His Sakya are already more or less Indianized as per the Pali
texts.


MW
 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET  Wed Nov  6 07:30:17 2002
From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 07:30:17 +0000
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0211052041390.15201-100000@is08.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071629.23782.353891306867787497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 9:51 pm -0500 5/11/02, Michael Witzel wrote:
>...the idea of
>weighing one's guilt, first found in the Upanishads, (first Egyptian, then
>Zoroastrian, Iranian);

Where does this occur in the UpaniSads?

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK




From rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Nov  6 16:32:27 2002
From: rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Richard Salomon)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 08:32:27 -0800
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071639.23782.403674737921573083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, there is no reasonable doubt about this. It is also confirmed by recent
manuscript and epigraphical discoveries. Please see, for example, my
"Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara" (Seattle/London 1999), esp. chapter
8 .

Richard Salomon

>  Just to confirm what he says: is it generally accepted that
> Buddhism left India via the NW and entered Central Asia and from there to
> the Tarim basin and that the Chinese got it from that direction?
>
> Dean Anderson
>




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Wed Nov  6 18:26:19 2002
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 13:26:19 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071643.23782.15624214702941412544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 11/6/02 11:30:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rsalomon at U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes:


> Yes, there is no reasonable doubt about this. It is also confirmed by recent
> manuscript and epigraphical discoveries. Please see, for example, my
> "Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara" (Seattle/London 1999), esp. chapter
> 8 .
>
> Richard Salomon
>
> >  Just to confirm what he says: is it generally accepted that
> > Buddhism left India via the NW and entered Central Asia and from there to
> > the Tarim basin and that the Chinese got it from that direction?
> >
> > Dean Anderson
> >
>

I think that there may be some confusion here.  The point of the Mair-Mallory
"Iranian hypothesis" -- it seems to me -- was that certain specific elements
of early Buddhism cannot be said to have Indic antecedents and therefore may
be better explained as having Central Asian or Iranian origins.  The specific
element discussed in the cited passage is the stupa, which, as Michael Witzel
has pointed out, has no antecedent in India, but may rather have one in the
Central Asian kurgans.  Instead of dismissing the suggestion as Eurocentric
speculation, maybe we should carefully consider the evidence.

In any case, Witzel knows perfectly well that at a date later than the late
Vedic dates that he discusses, Buddhism did indeed leave India via the NW and
entered Central Asia, etc., and he also knows perfectly well that Buddhism is
in general an Indic "heresy."  His point was that among the Vedic peoples who
formed some portion of the cultural background of the Buddhist homeland there
were also -- clearly present -- some Iranian elements.  There is no
reasonable doubt about this either [for more evidence see a recent article by
me in the recent JAOS Festschrift for Stanley Insler].

I think that Witzel's model of a broad cultural area with permeable borders
-- and clear evidence of cultural exchange in many directions -- is a very
good one for early Indo-Iranian.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Wed Nov  6 18:42:20 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 13:42:20 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
In-Reply-To: <026401c285b2$18534b20$7b565f80@universidny7ip>
Message-ID: <161227071645.23782.4298198334905670935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is also abundant  confirmation of this the translator's
colophons in the Chinese translations of the sutras. See Zurcher's
Buddhist Conquest of China and his extensive bibliography therin

JOhn


>Yes, there is no reasonable doubt about this. It is also confirmed by recent
>manuscript and epigraphical discoveries. Please see, for example, my
>"Ancient Buddhist Scrolls from Gandhara" (Seattle/London 1999), esp. chapter
>8 .
>
>Richard Salomon
>
>>   Just to confirm what he says: is it generally accepted that
>>  Buddhism left India via the NW and entered Central Asia and from there to
>>  the Tarim basin and that the Chinese got it from that direction?
>>
>>  Dean Anderson
>>




From ghezziem at TIN.IT  Wed Nov  6 15:02:47 2002
From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 16:02:47 +0100
Subject: an advice
Message-ID: <161227071636.23782.1069479239405791670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dearest friends and colleagues, has maybe someone of You the address of this
professor? A very dear Italian friend of mine is eagerly lokking for it.
Many thanks in advance,
Yours Daniela

> Professor Emeritus G Singh
>
> Since he retired from Queen's in 1992, Professor Singh has been active in
> teaching and publishing.
>
> Besides giving lectures in Italy at Trieste University, Macerata University
> and Urbino University, he has also published 12 books. These include Ezra
> Pound as Critic, Macmillan; F R Leavis: A Literary Biography, Duckworth;
> Ezra Pound: Poesie, Newton Compton, Rome, a unique anthology of poets in
> English, French, German, Spanish and Italian who wrote poems for their
> wives, Preface by Carlo Bo, Transeuropa, Ancona; his own book of poems Il
> Tempo Cammina su di Noi, Preface by Mario Luzi; and a 520-page volume of
> essays by Singh and his former colleague at Queen's, Gabrielle Barfoot,
> entitled Il Novecento Inglese e Italiano: Saggi Critici e comparativi.
>
> As a Leopardi scholar of international repute, Singh has brought out three
> books on Leopardi, Leopardi filosofo antifilosofo, Uomo, and Fanciulli e
> Fanciullezza, to mark the bicentenary of Leopardi's birth this year. He also
> gave a series of five lectures on Leopardi as part of the Leopardi Chair at
> Macerata University and, in collaboration with Michele dell'Aquila of Bari
> University, organised the International Congress at Penne (Italy) on
> Leopardo il nostro contemporaneo, with such eminent speakers as Mario Luzi,
> Emilio Bigi and Franco Foschi.
>
> Singh is also editing an anthology of tributes to Giacomo Leopardi from
> poets from all over the world (including Seamus Heaney, Ted Hughes, Mario
> Luzi, Andrea Zanzotto, Jorges Giull?n and Rafael Alberti), Introduction by
> Mario Luzi and Presentation by Franco Foschi. Singh's edition of Leopardi's
> Zibaldone will shortly be published by Newton Compton Editori, Rome and his
> book Q D Leavis: A Critical Introduction, will be published in the United
> States.
>
> Professor Singh is currently editing and translating the lectures he had
> invited Mario Luzi (a Queen's honorary graduate) to give at the University


******************************************************************
Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella
Department Assistant -
University of Perugia (Italy)
University of Milano (Italy)
home address: piazza Buzzati, 5
43100 PARMA (Italy)
tel. & fax +39.0521.773854
cell. +39.338 3198904
ghezziem at tin.it
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/area/idsas/ROSSELLA,Daniela.htm
******************************************************************




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Nov  6 16:49:12 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 16:49:12 +0000
Subject: Weekend 22-24 Nov: INDOLOGY website temporarily off the air
Message-ID: <161227071641.23782.1371326792363953568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The computers which host the INDOLOGY website will be shut down over the
weekend 22-24 Nov, while new wiring is installed.

DW

>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:42:45 +0000 (GMT)
>Subject: Weekend 22-24 Nov: CLOSURE of Computing & Networking Facilities
>
>Weekend of 22nd/23rd/24th November 2002
>CLOSURE of Computing and Networking Facilities
>----------------------------------------------
>
>Further to the recent message from Estates and Facilities Division,
>please note that the interruption of power to the Kathleen Lonsdale
>Building over the weekend of 22nd/23rd/24th November will mean a
>SHUTDOWN OF ALL CENTRAL NETWORK AND COMPUTING SERVICES from 17.00hrs
>on Friday 22nd November and all day on Saturday 23rd.
>
>During this period, all IS systems, including electronic mail,
>will be unavailable. Unexpected problems or machine failures
>could cause this period to be extended into Sunday 24th and the
>morning of Monday 25th November, so the whole weekend should be
>considered AT RISK.




From Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU  Wed Nov  6 23:03:19 2002
From: Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU (Sumit Guha)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 18:03:19 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as a Kenyan heresy
Message-ID: <161227071647.23782.2540738710051110013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
If the coincidence of two consonants between the name of a north Iranian
people and the ethnonym of Gautama's clan is sufficient for Michael Witzel
to provide a connection, let me offer a longer and deeper genealogy: over a
decade ago, mtDNA studies established that all specimens of homo sapiens
sapiens (including therefore Maya) are descended from one female who lived
in East Africa c.142,000 years B.P.

As a historical personage, the Buddha was first of all the founder of a
religion that drew on and rejected certain extant traditions see, for
example the lists of other teachers rejected by Pasenadi (Prasenajit of
Magadha). A satisfactory linkage to Iran would have to be more than the
chance coincidence of phonemes: it would have to show that the doctrines
accepted and rejected by the Buddha were prevalent in north-east Iran in
the formative period of the religion(where the inscription of Daryaush
printed in D.C. Sircar would seem to place the Saka around 500 BCE.)

Furthermore, ethnonyms travel and change: I find "pahalvaans" in 18th
century house-censuses from Maharashtra but I doubt they are residues of
the expeditions of Jamshid and Nushirwan.

Sumit Guha




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Thu Nov  7 01:26:11 2002
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 02 20:26:11 -0500
Subject: Talageri reply
Message-ID: <161227071649.23782.1123272167211915832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is the URL for Talageri's reply to Witzel's review of his book.

http://www.bharatvani.org/general_inbox/talageri/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Nov  7 14:26:57 2002
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 09:26:57 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as a Kenyan heresy
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021106174114.00d4ccd0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071653.23782.9939809270473574648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Sumit Guha wrote:

> If the coincidence of two consonants between the name of a north Iranian
> people and the ethnonym of Gautama's clan is sufficient for Michael Witzel
> to provide a connection,.... [etc.  etc. instead: "African Eve"]

Hmm, funny, but only applicable if my name were PN Oak.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can talk in an off-at-a-
tangent fashion... I had hoped, not on this list. --  A few points:


* "North Iranian" refers to a language and all those, regardless of
origins, who  speak it.

In case, the O.Pers. Saka situated north of Merw/Bactria/Sogdia:
Saka tigraxauda, haumavarga, and those 'across the
sea' = Scythians in Ukraine,  of Darius (= Daarayava[h]ush) at 519 BCE+,
and those who became the Khotanese Saka and those Saka (Skt. S'aka, zaka)
who entered Bactria/Sakastaan = Sistan, and later S. Asia around 140 BCE.
(Plus the modern Ossete, Yaghnobi).


* Skt. zaakya  (Pali sakya is a longer story!) is normal Vrddhi derivative
from zaka. Thus more than 2 consonants in common with the N.Ir. Saka (~
Skt. zaka)


* Worse, I thought I had *begun* to offer a few more items that point to
Iran/C. Asia, beyond the 2 consonants. Conveniently forgotten in the
reply.


Second,

> doctrines... accepted and rejected by the Buddha were prevalent in
north-east Iran in
> the formative period of the religion(where the inscription of Daryaush
> printed in D.C. Sircar would seem to place the Saka around 500 BCE.)

N.E. Iran? See above : from Ukraine to Xinjiang, well north of present
Iran/Afghanistan.

And why must Buddha's *teaching* come from there, if a connection between
Zaka and Zaakya is made??  Not what I said.  Rereading advised.

Incidentally, the whole story about the multi-ethnic/multi-religious
Bihar of Buddha's time has not yet been written. I only gave some
initial hints in my email. More to come, or see HOS-Opera Minora vol. 2
(1997: 307 sqq).


> Furthermore, ethnonyms travel and change:

Precisely what I suggested ("Indianized"). So why the uproar?


*  Could  the reason be that I pointed to a region *outside* the
subcontinent?   If so, why not say so?

As historian, Prof. Guha could perhaps explain to us where the Indian
yavana, parthava, zaka, kuSANa, tukhara, abhira, hUNa/harahUNa,
gurjara/Gujar, turuSka, taajika came from. Not to speak of the Bhoja
brahmins with their abhyanga etc., and  their sun worship.

Yours, eager to know,

MW

 ==========================================================================
Michael Witzel                       witzel at fas.harvard.edu
                                     www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
Harvard University                   www.shore.net/~india/ejvs
2 Divinity Avenue                    (Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies)
Cambridge MA 02138, USA

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
my direct line (also for messages) :  617- 496 2990




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Thu Nov  7 16:37:40 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 11:37:40 -0500
Subject: b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion or              doctrine.
In-Reply-To: <000c01c28503$ed370fc0$2402a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227071657.23782.7551146710844941841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear "Iranian Heresy" Discussants

Mitochondrial DNA and Old Iranian phonemes aside, I think what
offends me as as much as anything is the prioritizing of Iranian
religion by the use of the term "heresy".

According to the OED there are several ways of understanding the word

     1. a.  Theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in
opposition, or held to be contrary, to the 'catholic' or orthodox
doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any
church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox.
          b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion
or doctrine.

2. By extension, Opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics,
science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as
authoritative. Also with a and pl.

  3. In sense of?[an]  Opinion or doctrine characterizing particular
individuals or parties; a school of thought; a sect.

In my experience the first two meanings are much more thought of as
the "meaning" of the word "heresy" than the third. Therefore, debate
is more about the English usage of ""herasy"  that influences and
cultural fertilizations.

I might allow that linguistically and methodologically Buddhism might
have some roots that extended back into into the Iranian historical
continuum, but a conscious "heresy" in the sense that Shakyamuni and
his predecessors in Upanishadic thought were staging a
"confrontational" debate with the Iranian priests is simply
ahistorical speculation. Following the proven ideas of J. Mark
Kenoyer of continuity in Indic civilization, seems much more to the
point. A close reading of the Pali canon and the agamas, strongly
suggests that here was a brahmanical dual deity religion with Brama
and the "deity" of the Brahmanical priest hood, and Shakra (Indra)
the deity of the  Kashatrya and Vaisha communities. I can explain
this at length and refer to contemporaneous  sculptures illustrating
Shakyamuni being greeted and/or offered puja by Brahma and Indra as
evidence of their 1) having been imp;ortant  and 2) moved by the
Buddhists into a secondary position).  While religious historiqals
will immediately point out that Brahma and Indra have Vedic and
thereby Indo-aryan origins, the Vedas had been in India for at least
a thousand years and the Buddhist assumption of primacy over the two
gods, was hardly "heretical."  Indeed, not at all, because it
included both Indra and Brahma as major players in the formation of
Buddhism and did so in a very non-confrontational  but completely
inclusive way.

Thus, if one finds it necessary to speak of Iranian roots for
Buddhism, as a kind of higher historyor grand overview, that is
probably true, but as a "heresy" or anything like a confrontational
voice in opposition to "Iranian relgion" absolutely not..

Now on another note, During the second  through sixth centuries, both
Bodhisattva imagery and crowned Buddha imagery was indeed influenced
by by Kushan, Parthian and Sassanian kingship imagery and
incorporated royal regalia into the Buddhist Iconographic vocabulary,
Much, perhaps too much, has been made of this in the art historical
literature of this connection. In my opinion, it is much more likely
that persons familiar with the Iranian courts recounted the richness
of the courts and from that the depictions of Buddhas and tenth rank
bodhisattvas who were by definition in Akanistha paradise, simply to
on the qualities of the greatest luxury known at the time. This usage
certainly did not stem from ar have any part in a Buddhist "heresy."
Indeed, not. because it was an acceptance of the richness and the
power of the Iranian courts.

Sarvamangalam

John




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Thu Nov  7 19:24:38 2002
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 12:24:38 -0700
Subject: b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion or              doctrine.
Message-ID: <161227071663.23782.12923124331601294633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I couldn't figurout why the heresy term crept into the discussion, but I
meant my comments to be taken as ignoring that term for all the reasons
adduced so far. Joanna Kirkpatrick
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Huntington" <huntington.2 at OSU.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 9:37 AM
Subject: b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion or
doctrine.


Dear "Iranian Heresy" Discussants

Mitochondrial DNA and Old Iranian phonemes aside, I think what
offends me as as much as anything is the prioritizing of Iranian
religion by the use of the term "heresy".

According to the OED there are several ways of understanding the word

     1. a.  Theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in
opposition, or held to be contrary, to the 'catholic' or orthodox
doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any
church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox.
          b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion
or doctrine.

2. By extension, Opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics,
science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as
authoritative. Also with a and pl.

  3. In sense ofS[an]  Opinion or doctrine characterizing particular
individuals or parties; a school of thought; a sect.

In my experience the first two meanings are much more thought of as
the "meaning" of the word "heresy" than the third. Therefore, debate
is more about the English usage of ""herasy"  that influences and
cultural fertilizations.

I might allow that linguistically and methodologically Buddhism might
have some roots that extended back into into the Iranian historical
continuum, but a conscious "heresy" in the sense that Shakyamuni and
his predecessors in Upanishadic thought were staging a
"confrontational" debate with the Iranian priests is simply
ahistorical speculation. Following the proven ideas of J. Mark
Kenoyer of continuity in Indic civilization, seems much more to the
point. A close reading of the Pali canon and the agamas, strongly
suggests that here was a brahmanical dual deity religion with Brama
and the "deity" of the Brahmanical priest hood, and Shakra (Indra)
the deity of the  Kashatrya and Vaisha communities. I can explain
this at length and refer to contemporaneous  sculptures illustrating
Shakyamuni being greeted and/or offered puja by Brahma and Indra as
evidence of their 1) having been imp;ortant  and 2) moved by the
Buddhists into a secondary position).  While religious historiqals
will immediately point out that Brahma and Indra have Vedic and
thereby Indo-aryan origins, the Vedas had been in India for at least
a thousand years and the Buddhist assumption of primacy over the two
gods, was hardly "heretical."  Indeed, not at all, because it
included both Indra and Brahma as major players in the formation of
Buddhism and did so in a very non-confrontational  but completely
inclusive way.

Thus, if one finds it necessary to speak of Iranian roots for
Buddhism, as a kind of higher historyor grand overview, that is
probably true, but as a "heresy" or anything like a confrontational
voice in opposition to "Iranian relgion" absolutely not..

Now on another note, During the second  through sixth centuries, both
Bodhisattva imagery and crowned Buddha imagery was indeed influenced
by by Kushan, Parthian and Sassanian kingship imagery and
incorporated royal regalia into the Buddhist Iconographic vocabulary,
Much, perhaps too much, has been made of this in the art historical
literature of this connection. In my opinion, it is much more likely
that persons familiar with the Iranian courts recounted the richness
of the courts and from that the depictions of Buddhas and tenth rank
bodhisattvas who were by definition in Akanistha paradise, simply to
on the qualities of the greatest luxury known at the time. This usage
certainly did not stem from ar have any part in a Buddhist "heresy."
Indeed, not. because it was an acceptance of the richness and the
power of the Iranian courts.

Sarvamangalam

John




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Thu Nov  7 12:27:17 2002
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 13:27:17 +0100
Subject: New Book
Message-ID: <161227071651.23782.13123486794521425773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Luis,

Congratulations on your new publication. I am interested in contents, thank
you.

Best,

eg

*************************
Dr. Enrica Garzilli
University of Macerata
Editor-in-Chief, IJTS & JSAWS
http://www.asiatica.org
*************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luis Gonzalez-Reimann" <reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:36 AM
Subject: New Book


> Dear friends,
>
> The following book has just come out:
>
> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann. 2002. The Mahabharata and the Yugas: India's Great
Epic
> Poem and the Hindu System of World Ages. New York: Peter Lang.
>
> If anybody would like to see the table of contents please email me
directly.
>
> Best,
>
> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
>
>




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Nov  7 18:31:18 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 13:31:18 -0500
Subject: b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion or              doctrine.
Message-ID: <161227071660.23782.4592240189962141684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I accept most of John's comments.  However, I very much doubt that the Buddhist subordination of Brahma and Indra to the Buddha was not deemed "heretical" by others and that it was "non-confrontational."  The evidence from the Puranas like the Vishnupurana account that Vishnu takes the avataara as Buddha to teach false doctrines to demons so that they will be permanantly doomed is a reflection of how such mythological warfare was carried on.  No wonder that Shiva is depicted in the Shivamahapurana as destroying the city of the Asuras after they were deliberately led astray by a Jain-monk incarnation of Vishnu.  Also consider the Hindu accounts that Raavana had put all the gods in his prison, and needed to be freed.  So I would carefully look at the mythological counter-stories as evidence of confrontational feelings on various sides.  I cannot imagine Brahmins in ancient times not being shocked to see representations of tiny Indra and Brahma at the feet of imposingly tall statues of the Buddha offering homage to him.

                                                Madhav Deshpande

> ----------
> From:         John Huntington
> Reply To:     Indology
> Sent:         Thursday, November 7, 2002 11:37 AM
> To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject:           b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion or              doctrine.
> 
> Dear "Iranian Heresy" Discussants
> 
> Mitochondrial DNA and Old Iranian phonemes aside, I think what
> offends me as as much as anything is the prioritizing of Iranian
> religion by the use of the term "heresy".
> 
> According to the OED there are several ways of understanding the word
> 
>      1. a.  Theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in
> opposition, or held to be contrary, to the 'catholic' or orthodox
> doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any
> church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox.
>           b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion
> or doctrine.
> 
> 2. By extension, Opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics,
> science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as
> authoritative. Also with a and pl.
> 
>   3. In sense ofS?[an]  Opinion or doctrine characterizing particular
> individuals or parties; a school of thought; a sect.
> 
> In my experience the first two meanings are much more thought of as
> the "meaning" of the word "heresy" than the third. Therefore, debate
> is more about the English usage of ""herasy"  that influences and
> cultural fertilizations.
> 
> I might allow that linguistically and methodologically Buddhism might
> have some roots that extended back into into the Iranian historical
> continuum, but a conscious "heresy" in the sense that Shakyamuni and
> his predecessors in Upanishadic thought were staging a
> "confrontational" debate with the Iranian priests is simply
> ahistorical speculation. Following the proven ideas of J. Mark
> Kenoyer of continuity in Indic civilization, seems much more to the
> point. A close reading of the Pali canon and the agamas, strongly
> suggests that here was a brahmanical dual deity religion with Brama
> and the "deity" of the Brahmanical priest hood, and Shakra (Indra)
> the deity of the  Kashatrya and Vaisha communities. I can explain
> this at length and refer to contemporaneous  sculptures illustrating
> Shakyamuni being greeted and/or offered puja by Brahma and Indra as
> evidence of their 1) having been imp;ortant  and 2) moved by the
> Buddhists into a secondary position).  While religious historiqals
> will immediately point out that Brahma and Indra have Vedic and
> thereby Indo-aryan origins, the Vedas had been in India for at least
> a thousand years and the Buddhist assumption of primacy over the two
> gods, was hardly "heretical."  Indeed, not at all, because it
> included both Indra and Brahma as major players in the formation of
> Buddhism and did so in a very non-confrontational  but completely> 
> inclusive way.
> 
> Thus, if one finds it necessary to speak of Iranian roots for
> Buddhism, as a kind of higher historyor grand overview, that is
> probably true, but as a "heresy" or anything like a confrontational
> voice in opposition to "Iranian relgion" absolutely not..
> 
> Now on another note, During the second  through sixth centuries, both
> Bodhisattva imagery and crowned Buddha imagery was indeed influenced
> by by Kushan, Parthian and Sassanian kingship imagery and
> incorporated royal regalia into the Buddhist Iconographic vocabulary,
> Much, perhaps too much, has been made of this in the art historical
> literature of this connection. In my opinion, it is much more likely
> that persons familiar with the Iranian courts recounted the richness
> of the courts and from that the depictions of Buddhas and tenth rank
> bodhisattvas who were by definition in Akanistha paradise, simply to
> on the qualities of the greatest luxury known at the time. This usage
> certainly did not stem from ar have any part in a Buddhist "heresy."
> Indeed, not. because it was an acceptance of the richness and the
> power of the Iranian courts.
> 
> Sarvamangalam
> 
> John
> 
> 




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Thu Nov  7 21:21:10 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 16:21:10 -0500
Subject: Heresy   doctrine.
In-Reply-To: <60D386B60521234BB917967801F3A30F2A4A9C@lsa-m4.lsa.adsroot.itcs.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071665.23782.2662721149034123453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav is quite right to point out the the Brahmins would not have
liked the subordination of Brahma and Indra-- Certainly not. My
intention was to point out that there is not confrontational rhetoric
about how awful the Brahmanical traditions were in Buddhist
literature. Such is limiteed to the conversions of various Brahmins
and their followers. Bad enough, I suppose to an unconverted Brahmin,
but not horror tales such as we have in the Christian discussions of
Mani

John



>I accept most of John's comments.  However, I very much doubt that
>the Buddhist subordination of Brahma and Indra to the Buddha was not
>deemed "heretical" by others and that it was "non-confrontational."
>The evidence from the Puranas like the Vishnupurana account that
>Vishnu takes the avataara as Buddha to teach false doctrines to
>demons so that they will be permanantly doomed is a reflection of
>how such mythological warfare was carried on.  No wonder that Shiva
>is depicted in the Shivamahapurana as destroying the city of the
>Asuras after they were deliberately led astray by a Jain-monk
>incarnation of Vishnu.  Also consider the Hindu accounts that
>Raavana had put all the gods in his prison, and needed to be freed.
>So I would carefully look at the mythological counter-stories as
>evidence of confrontational feelings on various sides.  I cannot
>imagine Brahmins in ancient times not being shocked to see
>representations of tiny Indra and Brahma at the feet of imposingly
>tall statues of the Buddha offering homage to him.
>
>                                                 Madhav Deshpande
>
>>  ----------
>>  From:         John Huntington
>>  Reply To:     Indology
>>  Sent:         Thursday, November 7, 2002 11:37 AM
>>  To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>  Subject:           b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a
>>heretical opinion or              doctrine.
>>
>>  Dear "Iranian Heresy" Discussants
>>
>>  Mitochondrial DNA and Old Iranian phonemes aside, I think what
>>  offends me as as much as anything is the prioritizing of Iranian
>>  religion by the use of the term "heresy".
>>
>>  According to the OED there are several ways of understanding the word
>>
>>       1. a.  Theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in
>>  opposition, or held to be contrary, to the 'catholic' or orthodox
>>  doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any
>>  church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox.
>>            b. with a and pl. An instance of this; a heretical opinion
>>  or doctrine.
>>
>>  2. By extension, Opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics,
>>  science, art, etc., at variance with those generally accepted as
>>  authoritative. Also with a and pl.
>>
>>    3. In sense ofS?[an]  Opinion or doctrine characterizing particular
>>  individuals or parties; a school of thought; a sect.
>>
>>  In my experience the first two meanings are much more thought of as
>>  the "meaning" of the word "heresy" than the third. Therefore, debate
>>  is more about the English usage of ""herasy"  that influences and
>>  cultural fertilizations.
>>
>>  I might allow that linguistically and methodologically Buddhism might
>>  have some roots that extended back into into the Iranian historical
>>  continuum, but a conscious "heresy" in the sense that Shakyamuni and
>>  his predecessors in Upanishadic thought were staging a
>>  "confrontational" debate with the Iranian priests is simply
>>  ahistorical speculation. Following the proven ideas of J. Mark
>>  Kenoyer of continuity in Indic civilization, seems much more to the
>>  point. A close reading of the Pali canon and the agamas, strongly
>>  suggests that here was a brahmanical dual deity religion with Brama
>>  and the "deity" of the Brahmanical priest hood, and Shakra (Indra)
>>  the deity of the  Kashatrya and Vaisha communities. I can explain
>>  this at length and refer to contemporaneous  sculptures illustrating
>>  Shakyamuni being greeted and/or offered puja by Brahma and Indra as
>>  evidence of their 1) having been imp;ortant  and 2) moved by the
>  > Buddhists into a secondary position).  While religious historiqals
>>  will immediately point out that Brahma and Indra have Vedic and
>>  thereby Indo-aryan origins, the Vedas had been in India for at least
>>  a thousand years and the Buddhist assumption of primacy over the two
>>  gods, was hardly "heretical."  Indeed, not at all, because it
>>  included both Indra and Brahma as major players in the formation of
>>  Buddhism and did so in a very non-confrontational  but completely>
>>  inclusive way.
>>
>>  Thus, if one finds it necessary to speak of Iranian roots for
>>  Buddhism, as a kind of higher historyor grand overview, that is
>>  probably true, but as a "heresy" or anything like a confrontational
>>  voice in opposition to "Iranian relgion" absolutely not..
>>
>>  Now on another note, During the second  through sixth centuries, both
>>  Bodhisattva imagery and crowned Buddha imagery was indeed influenced
>>  by by Kushan, Parthian and Sassanian kingship imagery and
>>  incorporated royal regalia into the Buddhist Iconographic vocabulary,
>>  Much, perhaps too much, has been made of this in the art historical
>>  literature of this connection. In my opinion, it is much more likely
>>  that persons familiar with the Iranian courts recounted the richness
>>  of the courts and from that the depictions of Buddhas and tenth rank
>>  bodhisattvas who were by definition in Akanistha paradise, simply to
>>  on the qualities of the greatest luxury known at the time. This usage
>>  certainly did not stem from ar have any part in a Buddhist "heresy."
>>  Indeed, not. because it was an acceptance of the richness and the
>>  power of the Iranian courts.
>>
>>  Sarvamangalam
>>
>>  John
>>
>>




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Thu Nov  7 14:54:02 2002
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 16:54:02 +0200
Subject: Buddhism as Iranian heresy?
Message-ID: <161227071656.23782.5530772228051902112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bob Thurman wrote:
>
> Dear Dean,
> Yes to your question in the last para. There have been previous
> Eurocentric speculations about
> influence on sculptures of Buddha from Gandhara, Zoroastrian influence
> on the Amitabha cult of Mahayana, and so on, all with some basis, all
> controversial. Earlier Iranian-Indic Vedic period interactions,
> migrations, etc., as alluded to by Prof. Witzel, are surely probable,
> but the idea that "Buddhism," i.e. the social/religious/intellectual
> movement founded by Shakyamuni, would have inspiration from Iranian
> sources is what is out of left field...
There was a time when the idea of Sakya(muni) derived from saka AND
Buddhism derived from Iranian ideas actually was part of "Eurocentric
speculations". There was an article on this by Breloer ("Die ZAkya",
ZDMG 94, 1940, 268-294 ) and I wonder, whether there is something
similar in late works of Mrs. Rhys Davids on her "Aryan Buddhism". But
Michael makes a different case and is perhaps acceptable.

Greetings
Klaus

--
Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D.
Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094




From Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU  Thu Nov  7 23:31:14 2002
From: Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU (Sumit Guha)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 18:31:14 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as a Kenyan heresy
Message-ID: <161227071673.23782.14901086577187941832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
I do regret that a joking reference to our common African descent should
have so upset Herr Professor Witzel and led him to bombard the list with so
much irrelevant information.

The relevant question simply is:

The Buddha as a founder of a major religion is located in a religious
milieu and tradition.

What were the geographical boundaries of that tradition at the relevant
time? (By boundaries of the tradition I mean the zone within which schools
of thought regularly contended and communicated.)

If this boundary extended North of Merv, I would be happy to see the evidence.

But as far as I can see the named personages in the tradition appear to
have lived, preached and argued within north India.

Whether some branch of the Saka came to North India in the first half of
the 1st millennium BCE
simply has no bearing on this issue - nor does the veritably Pauranika spew
of names that adorn Professor Witzel's rejoinder.
Sincerely,
Sumit Guha




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Fri Nov  8 01:44:50 2002
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 19:44:50 -0600
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
In-Reply-To: <6934127758.20021108003756@lel.msk.ru>
Message-ID: <161227071675.23782.6604850122938997770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not sure whete "100-200 years upt to I cent AD" came. I am not
sure whether I wrote this. Be that as it may, yes, I do not think the
Artha as we have it goes back further the 1st cent BCE -- if that. My
only point was that "ciina" probably did not enter the Indian
vocabulary earlier than 1st cent BCE -- it of course could have been
much later. AND whether "ciinapatta" refers to China is quite another
issue.

Patrick


>Hello Patrick,
>   100-200 years up to I cent. A.D. It, nevertheless more real date KA.
>   Reflection in shastra a concrete material (and a mention of China
>- the concrete fact)
>   hardly could take place both under laws of a genre, and for other
>reasons (hardly it is possible to assume,
>   that the Chinese merchants for the first time have brought their
>goods in I cent. AD and at once this information
>   has been included in KA). Opinion of K.P. Jayaswal, that ciina =
>Zina, in my opinion is not absolutely correct.
>
>Monday, November 4, 2002, 12:59:06 AM, you wrote:
>
>PO> I am not sure what you mean by "100-200 years before"  - before what?
>PO> Clearly the Artha cannot be dated, at least as  we have it, to a time
>PO> long before 1st cent BCE, which would be the upper limit -- I think
>PO> -- for "ciina" in India.
>
>PO> Patrick
>
>
>
>>>But what about Kautilya Arthashastra (I AD):
>>>
>>>02.11.114 ciinapaTTaaZca ciinabhuumijaa ?
>>>
>>>China, in my mind, must be known in India 100-200 years before
>>>
>>>D.Lielukhine
>>>
>>>PO> Madhav:
>>>
>>>PO> I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
>>>PO> append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.
>>>
>>>
>>>PO> The reference to the Chinese with the work c?na is problematic. The
>>>PO> term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
>>>PO> probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
>>>PO> Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
>>>PO> the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
>>>PO> older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
>>>PO> time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
>>>PO> ?China?, like ?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
>>>PO> the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
>>>PO> Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as c?na came to be
>>>PO> known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
>>>PO> earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
>>>PO> been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
>>>PO> little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
>>>PO> began to flourish.
>>>
>>>PO> We do have, however, the mention of ?aka in the compound ?akayavana
>>>PO> by Pata?jali (on P??ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
>>>PO> in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
>>>PO> we have the progression from yavana in P??ini, to yavana and ?aka in
>>>PO> Pata?jali, to yavana, ?aka, and c?na in the MDh and the Mah?bh?rata.
>>>
>>>PO> I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
>>>PO> expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
>>>PO> 1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
>>>PO> evidence to the contrary.
>>>
>>>PO> Patrick
>>>
>>>>>A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
>>>>>references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
>>>>>there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
>>>>>Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
>>>>>for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
>>>>>from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
>>>>>references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
>>>>>Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
>>>>>times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
>>>>>references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
>  >>>>suggestions are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Madhav Deshpande
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Best regards,
>>>   Lielukhine                            mailto:lel at lel.msk.ru
>
>
>
>--
>Best regards,
>  Lielukhine                            mailto:lel at lel.msk.ru




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Thu Nov  7 21:54:56 2002
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S. Cousins)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 21:54:56 +0000
Subject: Buddhism as a Kenyan heresy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0211070117400.8878-100000@is07.fas.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071671.23782.2444422750676288694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel wrote:

>* Skt. zaakya  (Pali sakya is a longer story!) is normal Vrddhi derivative
>from zaka. Thus more than 2 consonants in common with the N.Ir. Saka (~
>Skt. zaka)

Actually, I think it is the other way round. An originally Middle
Indian name Sakka was subsequently Sanskritized to "Saakya and later
Pali Sakya, perhaps under the influence of the Iranian term at a
rather late date.

Lance Cousins

--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Nov  8 04:26:39 2002
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 02 23:26:39 -0500
Subject: Buddhism as a Kenyan heresy
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021107181511.00d5aac0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071678.23782.16621507985744554501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, another tangent on a tangent from S. Guha:

At least we know now,  where this comes from.


At 06:31 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, S. Guha  wrote:

>I do regret that a joking reference to our common African descent should
>have so upset Herr Professor Witzel and led him to bombard the list with so
>much irrelevant information.

"Herr" Witzel was not uspet at all about our common ancestors.
Instead,  he has written, in the intro chapter of  the book mentioned in
his original email:

"Wie wir nun aufgrund von genetischen Untersuchungen wissen, stammen alle
nun lebenden Menschen von einer Mutter in Afrika ("African Eve") ab, deren
mitochondrisches DNA wir alle in uns tragen. Ebenso haben wir einen nicht
unbedingt gleichzeitigen Stammvater, der sich aufgrund von Mutationen im
Y-Chromosom nachweisen laesst. Bekanntlich ist etwa vor 50.-75.000 Jahren
eine Gruppe von anscheinend nur 2.000-10.000 dieser neuen Menschen ueber
den Nahen Osten nach Europa und ueber Suedarabien oder den damals trockenen
Persischen Golf nach Indien eingewandert, von wo sie bis nach Ostasien und
Australien gelangten."

Second, the "irrelevant information"  was necessary to dispel some wrong
notions (e.g. on N.Iranian).
Apparently it still has not yet helped to inform the historian Guha well
enough, for :

>The relevant question simply is:
>The Buddha as a founder of a major religion is located in a religious
>milieu and tradition.

The complex social and religious  INDIAN milieu (in Bihar) has been
referred to several times in earlier emails. Closer study advised.

>What were the geographical boundaries of that tradition at the relevant
>time? (By boundaries of the tradition I mean the zone within which schools
>of thought regularly contended and communicated.)

As Prof. Guha will know, this  is easily visible e.g. in the older
Upanisads (see summary in Olivelle's Up. transl., or in more detail in
OpMin 2):

Gandhara and Madra to Videha.

However, trade extended much beyond  that. The Balhika  (Bactria) name is
attested from the Atharvaveda onwards.
See Persica 9 (1980).

Trade in fact seems to have extended even to the Altai and beyond, see the
recent paper by Y. Vasilkov (in Russian only) on the finds of Indian-made
bronze mirrors and the old Indian silk shirt, found in Saka etc.graves
there (400 BCE--).
No one has recorded --like Herodotos-- what they may have talked about at
their caravan stops.

>If this boundary extended North of Merv, I would be happy to see the
evidence.

This was not said (about boundaries of tradition). Re-reading advised.

>But as far as I can see the named personages in the tradition appear to
>have lived, preached and argued within north India.

(And Nepal). And, who doubted that? Re-reading advised.

>Whether some branch of the Saka came to North India in the first half of
>the 1st millennium BCE
>simply has no bearing on this issue - nor does the veritably Pauranika spew
>of names that adorn Professor Witzel's rejoinder.

So says Prof. Guha. ---  Still, lack of background information; as for "no
bearing", a study of the (Kosala-)Videha social situation is re-advised
(summary in OpMin 2).
And, see additional notes above.

Hope this helps.
Cheers, MW




From lel at LEL.MSK.RU  Thu Nov  7 21:37:56 2002
From: lel at LEL.MSK.RU (Lielukhine D.N.)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 02 00:37:56 +0300
Subject: References to China in Sanskrit lit
In-Reply-To: <p0510036db9eb4c3d814b@[66\.136\.200\.17]>
Message-ID: <161227071668.23782.18049291623483929327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Patrick,
  100-200 years up to I cent. A.D. It, nevertheless more real date KA.
  Reflection in shastra a concrete material (and a mention of China - the concrete fact)
  hardly could take place both under laws of a genre, and for other reasons (hardly it is possible to assume,
  that the Chinese merchants for the first time have brought their goods in I cent. AD and at once this information
  has been included in KA). Opinion of K.P. Jayaswal, that ciina = Zina, in my opinion is not absolutely correct.

Monday, November 4, 2002, 12:59:06 AM, you wrote:

PO> I am not sure what you mean by "100-200 years before"  - before what?
PO> Clearly the Artha cannot be dated, at least as  we have it, to a time
PO> long before 1st cent BCE, which would be the upper limit -- I think
PO> -- for "ciina" in India.

PO> Patrick



>>But what about Kautilya Arthashastra (I AD):
>>
>>02.11.114 ciinapaTTaaZca ciinabhuumijaa ?
>>
>>China, in my mind, must be known in India 100-200 years before
>>
>>D.Lielukhine
>>
>>PO> Madhav:
>>
>>PO> I have had to deal with this in connection to the date of Manu. I
>>PO> append some comments of mine in my intro to Manu.
>>
>>
>>PO> The reference to the Chinese with the work c?na is problematic. The
>>PO> term is not used by Pata?jali or the Dharmas?tras. The word was
>>PO> probably derived from a central Asian language and is related to the
>>PO> Qin (Chin) dynasty (221-206 B.C.E.), which, although short lived, was
>>PO> the first to unify China. The term itself, however, may have been
>>PO> older, because the Qin was a state in Northwest China prior to that
>>PO> time with strong trade connection with Central Asia. The term
>>PO> ?China?, like ?India? itself, is not a term of self-identification by
>>PO> the Chinese. The term came back to China probably from India via
>>PO> Buddhist monks and texts.  When a people known as c?na came to be
>>PO> known in India is difficult to estimate. The term?s absence in the
>>PO> earlier literature, however, makes it likely that it could not have
>>PO> been know before the 1st century B.C.E. It was during this time or a
>>PO> little earlier under the Han dynasty that Chinese trade with the west
>>PO> began to flourish.
>>
>>PO> We do have, however, the mention of ?aka in the compound ?akayavana
>>PO> by Pata?jali (on P??ini 2.4.10). So, the word yavana must have been
>>PO> in circulation by the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. Interestingly,
>>PO> we have the progression from yavana in P??ini, to yavana and ?aka in
>>PO> Pata?jali, to yavana, ?aka, and c?na in the MDh and the Mah?bh?rata.
>>
>>PO> I doubt whether the term ciina could have come to India until the
>>PO> expansion of foreign trade under the Han dynasty. An upper limit of
>>PO> 1st cent BCE appears to me reasonable, unless there is strong
>>PO> evidence to the contrary.
>>
>>PO> Patrick
>>
>>>>A colleague of mine in Chinese studies was wondering how old
>>>>references to China are in Sanskrit sources.  As far as I can tell,
>>>>there are references to ciina in Manu, Mahabharata, Ramayana,
>>>>Milindapanha etc.  My question is what would be a reasonable date
>>>>for these references.  For example, if the Mahabharata covers a span
>>>>from 400 B.C. to 400 A.D., where would we reasonably locate the
>>>>references to ciina?  The same question about Manu and Milinda.
>>>>Evidently there is a debate about the names of China in ancient
>>>>times among historians of China, and the dates of the earliest
>>>>references in Sanskrit may have a bearing on some arguments.  Any
>>>>suggestions are welcome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Madhav Deshpande
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Best regards,
>>  Lielukhine                            mailto:lel at lel.msk.ru



--
Best regards,
 Lielukhine                            mailto:lel at lel.msk.ru




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Fri Nov  8 15:28:38 2002
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 02 08:28:38 -0700
Subject: Insects in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227071685.23782.13611637036351794009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Jan,
Suggest that your friend apply to the academic Buddhism list known as
Buddha-L.
Since he doesn't subscribe, he could send a query to the main moderator,
Prof Richard Hayes, asking if Hayes could put his query on the list. He
would need to supply an email address so people could reply to him off list,
unless he wants to sub.
Prof. Hayes's email is richard.hayes at mcgill.ca
Regards,
Joanna Kirkpatrick
==============================================
 a query regarding the approach of Buddhism towards insects, vermin etc.
> - apart from, and in addition to the general notion of "abandonment of
harm to sentient beings". He has in mind such instances as using
insecticides against vermin
> destroying people's crops or killing "noxious" insects such as wasps or
hornets
> endangering human life, or farmers inadvertently killing dew-worms.
> Are there any specific textual references to insects you may be aware of?
> In appreciation of your metta and karuna,
> Jan Filipsky
> Jan Filipsky, PhD.
> Oriental Institute
> Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8
> The Czech Republic




From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Nov  8 15:03:32 2002
From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 02 09:03:32 -0600
Subject: Insects in Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20021108134431.0097ad90@lorien.site.cas.cz>
Message-ID: <161227071683.23782.10827334635152399692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Refer to
Peter Harvey, An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics: Foundations, Values and
Issues. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2000. Chapter four
provides considerable information on issues relating to pest
control and other matters concerning our treatment of animals.
The most useful feature of Harvey's work is his extensive
documentation of the manner in which normative directives
are actually interpreted in practice in a great many Buddhist
societies.

Matthew Kapstein




From filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ  Fri Nov  8 12:44:31 2002
From: filipsky at SITE.CAS.CZ (Jan Filipsky)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 02 13:44:31 +0100
Subject: Insects in Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227071680.23782.11889683826654492236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Netters,

a colleague of mine, who is not a member of Indology, has approached me

with a query regarding the approach of Buddhism towards insects, vermin
etc.

- apart from, and in addition to the general notion of "abandonment of
harm to sentient beings". He has in mind such instances as using
insecticides against vermin

destroying people<fontfamily><param>Tahoma</param>'</fontfamily>s crops
or killing "noxious" insects such as wasps or hornets

endangering human life, or farmers inadvertently killing dew-worms.

Are there any specific textual references to insects you may be aware
of?

In appreciation of your metta and karuna,

Jan Filipsky

Jan Filipsky, PhD.

Oriental Institute

Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8

The Czech Republic

phone ++420 /266 053 729


home: U Pentlovky 466/7, 181 00 Praha 8

phone ++420 /233 557 453

cellular ++420 603 118 432
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From Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI  Fri Nov  8 18:26:42 2002
From: Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 02 20:26:42 +0200
Subject: Sangam Tamil artefacts with Brahmi inscriptions
Message-ID: <161227071687.23782.2043665495235622662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
        I received today from Dr N. Kannan the following message, of which I am
forwarding some relevant parts. Dr Kannan and the Tamil Heritage
Foundation are making available digital images of new, sensational
discoveries of ancient Tamil artefacts partly going back to Sangam
times, many containing long Brahmi inscriptions. For the context of
these discoveries, I would like to refer to R. Nagaswamy's book "Roman
Karur" (Madras 1995), on the cover of which is depicted one of the gold
rings (with mithuna) now illustrated at this site. I have thanked Mr
Kannan for the great service The Tamil Heritage Foundation is doing to
scholarship. At the same time, I have stressed the importance of having
these objects examined by scientists in laboratories with high
credentials to make certain that the objects are genuine and to date
them more exactly.
        With best regards, AP

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: You are invited to view our webpages
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:55:10 +0100
From: Kannan <nkannan at freenet.de>
To: Asko.Parpola at Helsinki.Fi

Dear Prof.Parpola:

Greetings from Germany and from Tamil Heritage Foundation
<http://www.tamil-heritage.org>

We are a non-political, non-governmental organization present in the
internet since November 8, 2002. We are interested in the digital
preservation of ancient Tamil manuscripts in India and elsewhere. We do
feature sections that deal with the antiquity of Dravidian civilization.
In such an effort we have opened a section at

http://www.tamil-heritage.org/monument/oodu/sangkam.html

One of the main feature of this section is the clay tablets of Sangam
period. I found them at Perur (near Coimbatore) in a religious monastry
cum Arts College. I discussed about these clay tablets with Tamilnadu
archeologists and other scholars.

.....

Yours truely,
N.Kannan PhD

?
________________________________________________________
Narayanan Kannan Ph.D
Director
Tamil Heritage Foundation
http://www.tamil-heritage.org

Geleener Strasse 23
71034 Boeblingen
Germany

Homepage: http://nkannan0.tripod.com
eMail: nkannan at t-online.de, nkannan at freenet.de

Telephone: +49 7031 632403
Fax: +49 7031 286737
Mobile: +49 7031 1604821285
?




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Nov 11 16:27:40 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 02 16:27:40 +0000
Subject: Wednesday November 20th - Seminar in Humanities Computing (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071689.23782.2971889260058972036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just for general information.

DW

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:19:24 +0000
From: CCH Office <cch at kcl.ac.uk>
Subject: Wednesday November 20th - Seminar in Humanities Computing

Please find below details of the next Seminar in Humanities Computing.

Wednesday 20th November
1pm
Room 5E Strand Campus, King's College London.

Peter Robinson, Director of the Centre for Technology in the Arts at De
Montfort University, will be giving a seminar on 'A new publishing
system for electronic texts'. For brief details, please see abstract
below. For further details, please visit the Seminar webpage:

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/seminar/02-03/seminar_robinson.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over the last decade, many humanities scholars have been persuaded by
the promise and the power of encoding schemes for electronic texts to
create texts, sometimes very large and complex, encoded using these
schemes. This is specially true of SGML/XML based encodings, with the
implementation of the Text Encoding Initiative being particularly
influential in the community. However, scholars who have made such texts
have typically discovered that software to publish them is too expensive
for their limited budgets, or too difficult to use, or lacking essential
facilities, or all three of these.

In this talk I will present and discuss Anastasia, an electronic
publishing software designed to address the need for an adequate,
affordable and user-friendly system. Anastasia has been developed in the
last five years in a partnership between the Centre for Technology and
the Arts, De Montfort University, and a new electronic publishing
company, Scholarly Digital Editions (SDE). Anastasia stands for
'Analytic system tools and SGML integration application'. As this
implies, it is able to handle all valid SGML and XML documents, with no
limits on their complexity.

Centre for Computing in the Humanities, Room 11bb,
King's College London, Strand, London WC2R 2LS
Tel: +44 20 7848 2739
Fax: +44 20 7848 2980




From indologia at LATINMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 11 22:22:18 2002
From: indologia at LATINMAIL.COM (humanidades India)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 02 17:22:18 -0500
Subject: Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227071691.23782.17688827957288632386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dearest Friends:
I am looking references about diamonds, pearls, sapphire in the Mahabharata??? Could your send the cuotes???
Horacio F. Arganis
U A de C.


_________________________________________________________
http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Nov 11 23:04:18 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 02 23:04:18 +0000
Subject: CSX+ (Notice for Indology List (fwd))
Message-ID: <161227071694.23782.9923448647149679595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Forwarded message ---
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:54:41 +0100
From: Ulrich.Stiehl <Ulrich.Stiehl at t-online.de>
Subject: Notice for Indology List

New CSX+ Font - Compatible with Windows 95/98/ME/2000/XP
========================================================

The old CSX+ font designed for DOS and old Windows 3.1,
is not compatible with the newer releases of Windows.
See the various Read-me-files at John Smith's ftp site

 ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts/

After digging into some Windows internals, I mananged to
create a new font with the original CSX+ encoding, which
is compatible with Windows 1995/1998/ME, NT 2000 and XP
in conjunction with Word 1997/2000/XP.

Only Roman style has been made so far, downloadable at
http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/polfonts.htm

This style is sufficient for reading the CSX+ encoded
Mahabharata supplementary files at John Smith's site,
which contain diacritics for proper names etc. etc.
that are invisible for users of the old CSX+ font,
since the old CSX+ font "swallows" some diacritics
in the more recent versions of Windows and Word.

Should someone need the other CSX+ styles (Bold etc.),
please send a request to ulrich.stiehl at t-online.de

Should someone need a new Windows font for the old
Norman font (which is also incompatible with modern
Windows; see the read-me-files at John Smith's site),
such a new Norman font could be made too, if needed.

Ulrich Stiehl, Heidelberg (Germany)




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Nov 11 23:09:34 2002
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 02 00:09:34 +0100
Subject: SV: CSX+ (Notice for Indology List (fwd))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0211112302370.25447-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227071696.23782.7990005137710248969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Only Roman style has been made so far, downloadable at
http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/polfonts.htm

Thank you for taking the trouble!

>Should someone need a new Windows font for the old
Norman font (which is also incompatible with modern
Windows; see the read-me-files at John Smith's site),
such a new Norman font could be made too, if needed.

I would like to subscribe to such a font, if possible!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ  Mon Nov 11 23:33:48 2002
From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 02 12:33:48 +1300
Subject: Asha Archives Manuscript Catalogue
Message-ID: <161227071699.23782.2758299607634183370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have made the `Asha Archives Manuscript Catalogue' available at:

 http://homepages.comnet.co.nz/~r-mahoney/asha_cat/asha_cat.html


The Catalogue is available in various forms: PDF, CSX+ and UTF-8 text,
and UTF-8 XHTML. Many thanks to those who have permitted this.


Regards,

 Richard Mahoney


--
Richard Mahoney    |  E-mail: rbm49 at ext.canterbury.ac.nz
78 Jeffreys Road   |          r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz
Fendalton          |  Telephone: 0064-3-351-5831
CHRISTCHURCH 8005  |  Cellular: 0064-25-829-986
NEW ZEALAND        |  http://homepages.comnet.co.nz/~r-mahoney




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Wed Nov 13 17:43:28 2002
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S. Cousins)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 02 17:43:28 +0000
Subject: JOURNAL> JPTS Vol. XXVII
Message-ID: <161227071701.23782.9783834288232892629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The latest issue of the Journal of the Pali Text Society (Vol. 
XXVII), is now available.
ISBN 0 86013 407 5. Price: 18.75 pounds sterling.

edited by O. von Hinueber and R.F. Gombrich

Contents:

Notes on Sri Lankan Temple Manuscript Collections
by Anne M. Blackburn, pp. 1-59

Liinatthapakaasinii and Saaratthama?juusaa : The Puraa.na.tiikaas and
the .Tiikaas on the Four Nikaayas
by Primoz Pecenko, pp. 61-113

A Study of the Campeyya Jaataka, Including Remarks on the Text of the
Sa"nkhapaala Jaataka
by Thomas Oberlies, pp.115-46

The Colophons of Burmese Manuscripts
by Heinz Braun, pp. 147-53

On a New Edition of the Syaamara.t.thassa Tepi.taka.t.thakathaa
by Peter Skilling, pp. 155-58

Some Citation Inscriptions from South-East Asia
by Peter Skilling, pp. 159-75
--
The contact details for the PTS are:

The Pali Text Society, 73 Lime Walk, Headington, Oxford
OX3 7AD, U.K.
Tel.: +44 (0)1865 742 125
Fax: +44 (0)1865 750 079 (mark: For Pali Text Society)
E-mail: pts at palitext.demon.co.uk
Web site: http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk

L.S. Cousins
(PTS President)




From asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Nov 14 20:05:54 2002
From: asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Andrew Glass)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 02 12:05:54 -0800
Subject: Norman Font and CSX+ Font for Windows 1995/1998/2000/XP (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071708.23782.9121064142442850051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On the subject of fonts, Indologists using Windows ME/2000/XP and/or
Word 1997/2000/XP (even on Windows 95 and 98), or almost any editor or
word processor under the GNU/Linux or BSD operating systems, should
consider using Unicode as the encoding method for their files, and use a
Unicode font.  Unicode offers considerable advantages over earlier
methods for encoding diacritics in Indological transliteration.
Foremost among these is that unicode has dedicated code points for all
of the diacritics needed for the transliteration of Indian texts.
Thus, files that use a mixture of European and Indological diacritics
need only use one font for everything.  Also, Unicode in
contradistinction to CSX+ or Norman, is an internationally agreed-upon
standard, and is very well supported by the current generation of Web
browsers (e.g. Mozilla 1.x, Netscape 7, and Internet Explorer 6). This
means that Sanskrit transliteration can be displayed on a web page
with correct diacritics without requiring a visitor to download and
install a custom font - one can use any of the default unicode fonts
that came with the operating system.  Almost all email programs now
support unicode, too, so it is also possible to send transliterations
of Sanskrit text in email.  (One just needs to find out how to input
them: we provide solutions to that on our webpages, for Windows and
GNU/Linux or BSD respectively, addresses at the foot of the email).

However, at this point the standard Serif fonts supplied with
Windows do not include all of the diacritics needed for Sanskrit
transliteration: particularly the retroflexes are missing.  (GNU/Linux
and BSD do not suffer from this to quite the same degree: their included
and widely used bitmaps fonts cover the whole range of
Indological diacritics.)  There are now several font options for
Indologists interested in using unicode:

   1.  The Early Buddhist Manuscripts Project's Gandhari Unicode font.
   This font is based on the original URW+ Postscript fonts donated to
   the free software community, has been extended to display the
   special diacritics necessary for Gandhari and comes with Roman,
   Italic, Bold, and Bold Italic styles. It contains more than 700
   glyphs including all diacritics used for Indological transliteration and
   European languages as well as modern Greek, IPA and a complete set
   of Indologically relevant Unicode combining diacritics.  An input
   method for Microsoft Word is provided, as well as a system-wide
   Windows input method so that users can type Unicode characters
   directly into email, databases, spread sheets, etc.  This latter
   input method will work with any of the unicode fonts listed in this
   email.  Gandhari Unicode is free and open source software: it is
   licensed under the GNU General Public License
   (http://depts.washington.edu/ebmp/software.html)

   2. URW+ Palladio UNI.  This 16-bit Unicode TrueType font includes
   all diacritics defined by ISO 15919 (Transliteration of Indic
   Scripts covering all ancient and modern languages of India).  It
   also includes all diacritics for Western, Central, and Eastern
   European languages so that this font can be used by Indologist
   using pretty much any European language.
   (http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/polfonts.htm#UNI)

   3. Titus Cyberbit Basic.  This font includes, among other
   characters, a (nearly) complete set of Korean, Japanese, and
   Chinese characters.  Bold and Italic variants of this font are not
   yet available.  The font has a size of about 13 MB.  N.B.: The font
   does not provide full coverage of Latin diacritics, Ancient Greek,
   Armenian, Georgian and the like.
   (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/indexe.htm?/unicode/unitest2.htm)

Other utilities:

   4. John Smith provides tools for converting your existing files
   with CSX+ encoding to Unicode from his web site.
   (ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/programs/README)

   5. James Kass has much unicode related information and many links
   on his site.  (http://home.att.net/~jameskass/)

   6. For users of Windows XP and/or Office XP, the Early Buddhist
   Manuscripts Project has developed an input method for Unicode
   Devanagari.  This input method allows the user to enter text using
   the same conventions as for transliteration and the computer will
   display the corresponding text in Devanagari including correct
   conjuncts.  Currently, the most convenient and aesthetically pleasing
   font to use with this input method is the Arial Unicode OpenType font,
   included with Office XP.
   (http://depts.washington.edu/ebmp/downloads/Devanagari.exe)

Andrew Glass
Stefan Baums

http://staff.washington.edu/asg/
http://students.washington.edu/baums/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dominik Wujastyk" <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:42 AM
Subject: Norman Font and CSX+ Font for Windows 1995/1998/2000/XP (fwd)


> -- Forwarded message --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Norman Font and CSX+ Font for Modern Releases of Windows and Word
> 
> Besides the new CSX+ font, which is now fully compatible with modern
> Windows (95/98/ME/2000/XP) and modern Word (1997/2000/XP), a similar
> new font for K.R.Norman encoding is now downloadable from this site:
> 
>   http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/polfonts.htm
> 
> Ulrich Stiehl, Heidelberg
>




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Nov 14 14:42:06 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 02 14:42:06 +0000
Subject: Norman Font and CSX+ Font for Windows 1995/1998/2000/XP (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071703.23782.5667991998316140908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

-- Forwarded message --
------------------------------------------------------------------

Norman Font and CSX+ Font for Modern Releases of Windows and Word

Besides the new CSX+ font, which is now fully compatible with modern
Windows (95/98/ME/2000/XP) and modern Word (1997/2000/XP), a similar
new font for K.R.Norman encoding is now downloadable from this site:

  http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/polfonts.htm

Ulrich Stiehl, Heidelberg




From cln at SAS.UPENN.EDU  Thu Nov 14 16:15:18 2002
From: cln at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 02 21:45:18 +0530
Subject: Forwarding a Call for Papers - Please Distribute
Message-ID: <161227071706.23782.5381422062890331669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

I'm forwarding this call for papers on behalf Madhu Kishwar.  Please
respond to her directly with any questions.

All the best,

Christian

____________________

Call for Papers

The Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), in collaboration
with India International Centre, will host a regional conference of the
International Association of the History of Religions (IAHR) in New Delhi
from December 18-21, 2003.  Last date for submission of abstracts: December
15, 2002.  Final date for confirmation of accepted proposals: January 31,
2003.

The dates of the conference have been shifted from December 11-14, 2003 to
December 18-21, 2003, in response to requests from several participants.

The conference aims to encourage rigorous secular studies of religious
traditions in India: Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism,
Christianity, Islam and Sikhism, including their various sects and
branches.  Furthermore, in order to promote the study of religions in India
as a careful secular discipline, the conference hopes to establish a
process for bringing together, on a regular basis, scholars in India who
are working in the field of religion.

Topics might include, but are not limited to:  1) studies of traditional
religious texts with a special focus on notions of the common or public
good; ideal forms of gender and familiar relations; theories of justice and
political authority; and relations between deities and mortals, rulers and
ruled, or nature and humans; 2) the interrelationships among religions
theologies, canons, philosophies, practices, and folk beliefs; 3)
historical and contemporary studies of growth or decay of syncretic
traditions in religious texts and practices; the role and function of
pilgrimage centres, as well as the management of religious institutions;
and the rise, decline, and renewal of shramanic traditions within Indic
civilisation; 4) the politics of conversion in history or in contemporary
India; and the limits of religions authority and the role of dissenters and
outsiders; 5) the impact of nationalism on beliefs and practices; Gandhi's
religion; and Hindu-Muslim relations; 6) special methodological concerns in
the study of Indic religions; and 7) the contributions of Indic religions
to cosmological speculation in 20th century science.

Please see our website for proposal submission, registration, programme,
accommodation, and contact information: www.indicreligions.com

Or email: madhukishwar at indicreligions.com or madhuk at csdsdelhi.org

Sincerely,


Madhu Kishwar
Convenor

Professors T. N. Madan and Robert Thurman
Co-Chairs


Phone number in Delhi: 91-0-9818048892

Christian Lee Novetzke
Assistant Professor                                     820 Williams Hall,
UPenn
South Asia Studies                                      36th and Spruce Streets
University of Pennsylvania                              Philadelphia, PA
19104-6305
                                                         Tel: (215) 898-7475
Webpage:
<http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln/index.html>www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln/index.html




Phone number in Delhi: 91-0-9818048892

Christian Lee Novetzke
Assistant Professor                                     820 Williams Hall,
UPenn
South Asia Studies                                      36th and Spruce Streets
University of Pennsylvania                              Philadelphia, PA
19104-6305
                                                         Tel: (215) 898-7475
Webpage:
<http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln/index.html>www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln/index.html




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Sat Nov 16 19:18:28 2002
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 14:18:28 -0500
Subject: Are Buddhist sutras considered "apaurusheya"?
Message-ID: <161227071712.23782.869412909061870342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As the readers of this list are no doubt aware, the Vedas are traditionally
considered "apaurusheya", i.e. "divine and not of human composition". They
are considered pre-existent realities that are only "cognized" or "seen" by
the authors ascribed to them.

I was wondering if the Buddhist sutras are considered as having a similar
status since I seem to remember reading somewhere that the celestial beings
in heaven are portrayed as chanting certain sutras (to future Buddhas and
Bodhisattvas?). Or are the sutras traditionally ascribed to particular human
authors?

I assume this system has only become prevalent with the rise of the Mahayana
and Vajrayana systems.

Dean Anderson




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Sat Nov 16 21:17:48 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 16:17:48 -0500
Subject: Are Buddhist sutras considered "apaurusheya"?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c28da4$f1eeb0a0$2402a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227071714.23782.15898952904581023668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The sutra are the spoken words of Shakyamuni  Buddha, on on occasion
>one of his followers as authorized by Shakyamuni. Some Manayana
>sutras are taught in celestial realms but the majority are taught in
>locations such as Vaishali, Sravasti, Jetavana arama, the Veluvana
>and the like. Gridhakuta the Vulture's peak at Rajagriha is
>especially important for Mahayana sutras.  In the introcuction to
>the majority of sutras there is the a formula "thus i have heard,
>when the Buddha was staying at XXXX."

John





>As the readers of this list are no doubt aware, the Vedas are traditionally
>considered "apaurusheya", i.e. "divine and not of human composition". They
>are considered pre-existent realities that are only "cognized" or "seen" by
>the authors ascribed to them.
>
>I was wondering if the Buddhist sutras are considered as having a similar
>status since I seem to remember reading somewhere that the celestial beings
>in heaven are portrayed as chanting certain sutras (to future Buddhas and
>Bodhisattvas?). Or are the sutras traditionally ascribed to particular human
>authors?
>
>I assume this system has only become prevalent with the rise of the Mahayana
>and Vajrayana systems.
>
>Dean Anderson




From Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU  Sat Nov 16 21:35:06 2002
From: Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU (Sumit Guha)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 16:35:06 -0500
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227071716.23782.14055279090148044485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
In a previous posting I had posed the issue as follows

<<The relevant question simply is:
The Buddha as a founder of a major religion is located in a religious
milieu and tradition.

What were the geographical boundaries of that tradition at the relevant
time? (By boundaries of the tradition I mean the zone within which schools
of thought regularly contended and communicated.)

If this boundary extended North of Merv, I would be happy to see the evidence.

But as far as I can see the named personages in the tradition appear to
have lived, preached and argued within north India.>>

In his rejoinder, Professor Witzel says no one has denied this. In that
case, of course any DOCTRINAL  connection of Buddhism with Iran obviously
disappears.

But as Professor Witzel is so anxious that his Thought be carefully
examined, I shall consider why he feels it necessary throw in so much
Central Asian ethnology into the discussion.
*******************************************************************
 From the beginning of Western studies of cultural change until at least
the mid-twentieth century, the field was dominated by two overlapping
explanatory models:

1. Diffusionism - which argued (or assumed) that significant innovations
occurred once in human history and then diffused to all other areas. Egypt
was at one time a popular center for this model: so if pyramids were found
in Central America it was because Egyptians had sailed (on papyrus boats or
otherwise) to America and instructed the natives.

2. Sometimes independent of, but often overlapping diffusionism, was racism
- one "race" (usually Nordic) was the bearer of the significant
achievements of mankind.
                   *********************************

Now, since Professor Witzel has admitted that no doctrinal connection can
be found with Central Asia or the Sakas, then he must be arguing for either
of the following:

A. Saka and Sakya were "ethnically" related, using a "functional" model of
ethnicity.

This would imply that at the time of Gautama's birth these several
communities, despite speaking distinct languages, and being separated by
several thousand miles WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED EACH OTHER as related to each
other AND UNRELATED TO other, linguistically and spatially closer communities.

There no evidence for this, or for the presence of the complex institutions
of social communication that would allow such long-range affiliations to be
socially reproduced in 5th century BCE Asia.

So if that is not likely to be what Professor Witzel meant, then it must be:

B. Sakya were Saka by "racial" descent. Let us frame this in the language
of genetics. (There would obviously be similarities between Saka and Sakya
as they shared our common African ancestry. But this is evidently not what
Professor Witzel's line of argument proposes.)

On the other hand, as only identical twins are genetically identical, he
cannot argue that the two populations were exactly the same. So a rational
version of this hypothesis would state that samples of Saka and Sakya would
be found to be genetically closer to each other than to other populations
among whom each of them lived.

Since genetic distance generally increases with separation in space and in
time, this hypothesis is intrinsically improbable, but not impossible.

BUT EVEN IF the improbable suggestion B turned out to be correct, the only
way it could possibly affect Buddhism as a religious doctrine would be if
the genetic constitution of the Sakya impinged on it via a racial
collective unconscious as postulated by the self-proclaimed Aryan, C.G.
Jung, in the early 20th century. Let us say that there is no evidence for
this either.


*******************************************************************************
So, in his tenacious defense of the Central Asian connection of Buddhism,
Professor Witzel has to depend upon either Model A or Model B, and both are
obviously extremely shaky in presuppositions, logic and evidence.
If he goes further along this path, he is highly liable to find himself up
the creek on a papyrus boat, with Thor Heyerdahl, and without a paddle.


Sincerely,
Sumit Guha




From cln at SAS.UPENN.EDU  Sat Nov 16 12:04:35 2002
From: cln at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 17:34:35 +0530
Subject: Indic Religions Conference - Proposal Deadline Extension
Message-ID: <161227071710.23782.16643731622247622043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello,

On behalf of Madhu Kishwar, I'm passing along this message regarding the
upcoming Indic Religions Conference in Delhi.  Please write directly to her
with queries.

Yours,

Christian

___________________

Due to popular demand, we have extended the proposal deadline for the
CSDS/IAHR Indic Religions Conference.  The new deadline is January 31st,
2003.  We look forward to reading your paper and panel proposals.

Sincerely,

Madhu Kishwar, Convenor

Website:  http://www.indicreligions.com



Phone number in Delhi: 91-0-9818048892

Christian Lee Novetzke
Assistant Professor                                     820 Williams Hall,
UPenn
South Asia Studies                                      36th and Spruce Streets
University of Pennsylvania                              Philadelphia, PA
19104-6305
                                                         Tel: (215) 898-7475
Webpage:
<http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln/index.html>www.sas.upenn.edu/~cln/index.html




From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Sun Nov 17 00:05:44 2002
From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 18:05:44 -0600
Subject: Are Buddhist sutras considered "apaurusheya"?
In-Reply-To: <003e01c28da4$f1eeb0a0$2402a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227071720.23782.806473192429717767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This raises some interesting, knotty questions in fact.
You should know that "apaurusheya" means that the Vedas
are not even authored by the gods -- purushas are all
individual beings, not just humans. In general, Buddhists
found this view of scriptural authority to be objectionable,
and in works such as Santarakshita's Tattvasamgraha very
detailed philosophical refutations of the apaurusheyatvam of
the Vedas are given. Buddhist scriptures, whether the early suttas,
Mahayana sutras, or tantras, were, by contrast, generally
given careful ascription to divine or human authors, by means
of the five "ascertainments" of speaker, audience, place, time
and teaching. Nevertheless, some of the metaphysical
speculations associated with the theory of Buddha-nature
seem to countenance spontaneous eruptions of the Dharma,
authored by no discernible person, except perhaps the dharmakaya.
Some studies that discuss at least some of these issues include
Ronald Davidson's contribution to R. Buswell, Chinese Buddhist
Apocrypha
Janet Gyatso's "Letter Magic" in her edited vol. In the Mirror of Memory
and my "The Purificatory Gem and Its Cleansing" in
my book The Tibetan Assimilation of Buddhism

Matthew Kapstein




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Nov 16 23:21:26 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 23:21:26 +0000
Subject: Hindu Spirituality Conference. (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071718.23782.17331312656393345910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:03:21 +0000
From: neill walker <njwalk710 at HOTMAIL.COM>
Reply-To: Indology Committee <INDOLOGYCOMMITTEE at liverpool.ac.uk>
To: INDOLOGYCOMMITTEE at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Hindu Spirituality Conference.

15/11/2002.

Please find enclosed the most up-to-date information on
the Hindu Spirituality Conference, Saturday 21 December
2002, 10am-5pm, in Edinburgh, at The Indian Consulate,
and organized by The EICWS.

Please communicate this information to anyone who you
think will be interested. Also, please list the event
on SARAI.

In Peace and Happiness,

Neill.

Hindu Spirituality Conference
Saturday 21 December 2002, 10am-5pm,
Consulate General of India, Edinburgh,
17, Rutland Square, Edinburgh, EH1 2BB.

Organized by The Edinburgh International Centre for World Spiritualities,
EICWS, Scottish Charity, SC 030155.

Conference Schedule.

10-10.05: Introduction
by The Consulate General of India, Edinburgh. (tbc)

10.05-10.40: An Overview of Hindu Spirituality
by Rev Prof Frank Whaling, Professor Emeritus,
The Study of World Religions, Edinburgh University.

10.40-11.15: The Spirituality of the Bhagavad Gita
by Rita Goswami, co-Director, The Life Foundation UK.

11.15-11.30: Tea/Coffee break

11.30-12.05: The Contribution of Women to Hindu Spirituality
by Sister Jayanti, European Director, The Brahma Kumaris
World Spiritual University (BKWSU).

12.05-12.40: Ahimsa and Gandhi
by George Paxton, of the Gandhi Foundation (UK).

12.40-1: Question and Discussion Session.

1-2: Lunch Break

2-2.20: Talk on Hindu Spirituality and Meditation, by Sahaj Marg.

2.20-3: Workshop on The Practice of Hindu Spirituality, by Sahaj Marg;
2.20-3: Workshop on The Teacher/Student Relation
in Hindu Spirituality led by Bhakti Bhalab Puri goswami,
Resident Spiritual Master ISKCON Scotland (tbc).

3-3.20: Hindu Spirituality and Education
by Jay Lakhani, Director, The Vivekananda Centre, London.

3.20-3.40: Tea/Coffee break

3.40-4: Hinduism and the Findings of Modern Science
by Jay Lakhani, Director, The Vivekananda Centre, London.

4-4.30: Hindu Spirituality and Poetry,
Manjula Parekh, reading and singing from Kabir;
Dr Sisir K Tewari, Bengali Cultural Association,
reading from Rabindranath Tagore.

4.30-4.50: Question and Discussion Session.

4.50-5: Blessing
by the Priest of The Hindu Mandir, Glasgow.

Admission Free,
Donations Welcome.

It is hoped to publish proceedings, subject to sponsorship.

Individuals and organizations are very welcome
to send information, newsletters, publications,
and letters, etc, to be given out to those who
are attending the conference.

More specific information on travel and accommodation
options, and on the location of the venue, are available
on request. Arrangements with speakers will be made on
an individual basis.

IMPORTANT: Since the capacity of the venue is limited
it is essential that you confirm your attendance in
advance with Neill Walker at the contact below,
subject to availability of places.

The EICWS is a Scottish Charity which celebrates
the strength and diversity of the world?s spiritual
traditions in Scotland and internationally. The EICWS
has an educational charitable purpose. This conference
on Hindu Spirituality is part of a series of conferences
on the spiritual traditions being organized by The EICWS.
Earlier this year there was a conference on Baha'i
Spirituality, and further conferences will continue
next year.

For All Communications About The Conference:
Contact: Neill Walker, 4 William Black Place,
South Queensferry, Edinburgh, EH30 9PZ, Scotland.
Ph: +44-131-331-4469.
E-mail: njwalk710 at hotmail.com

The Conference Venue Address:
Consulate General of India, Edinburgh,
17, Rutland Square, Edinburgh, EH1 2BB,
(Ph :+44-131-229-2144 Fax :+44-131-229-2155
indian at consulate.fsnet.co.uk)




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Nov 18 00:19:43 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 02 00:19:43 +0000
Subject: Conference announcement (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071722.23782.3084207973814218793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:37:26 +0100
From: Armin W. Geertz <geertz at teologi.au.dk>
Subject: Conference announcement



Call for Papers
IAHR Regional Conference
Theme: Religions in the Indic Civilisation
Organised by
Centre for the Study of Developing Societies, Delhi
in collaboration with
India International Centre, New Delhi

December 18 - 21, 2003
New Delhi, India


Madhu Kishwar
Convenor

Professors T. N. Madan and Robert Thurman
Co-chairs
Phone: (91-11) 395-1190; 3942199
Submission of Proposals, Manuscripts and Other Conference
Fax: (91-11) 394-3450
Correspondence via E-mail to madhuk at csdsdelhi.org

The Indic universe gave birth to four major world religions, as well as a
vast diversity of schools of metaphysical thought and religious practice.
It has witnessed dramatic and sometimes cataclysmic encounters with
non-Indic religious traditions.

The sub-continent also nurtured several persecuted religious traditions
(e.g., Jews, Zoroastrians, Bahaiis) from different parts of the world.
Within the Indic world, the diverse communities developed innovative ways
of living together that are being continuously reworked, as well as modes
of religious dialogue and renewal that often altogether bypass theological
differences. Through this process, they evolved many common cultural
symbols, socio-religious practices and codes of behaviour that facilitate
non-antagonistic coexistence among them, even while they retain their
specific identities. Consequently, the dividing lines between various
religious communities as well as between folk and classical religious
traditions have retained a great deal of fluidity and complexity.

And yet, too often, the interrelations of ethno-religious communities
living in the sub continent have been viewed in the scholarly literature
through simplistic and misleading stereotypes. It is surprising and ironic
that in contemporary India the scholarly study of religion has not become
a well-established discipline within the academic world. While many of the
highly regarded universities in various parts of the world contain
well-developed departments for the study of Indic religions, no university
in India hosts similar rigorous programmes of religious studies.  One of
the consequences of this failure is the continuing hold of misleading
stereotypes of the nature of Indic religious thought and practice.

This Conference aims to encourage rigorous secular studies of religious
traditions in India: Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Buddhism,
Neo-Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Sikhism including their various
sects and branches.

The Conference also hopes to establish a process for bringing together on
a regular basis scholars in India who are working in the field of religion
to promote the study of religions in India as a rigorous secular
discipline.

Panels, symposia and individual papers are welcome on themes that include,
but are not limited to the following, offered as examples: 1. Studies of
traditional religious texts with a special focus on:


- Notions of the common or public good; norms about accumulating and
sharing income and wealth;

- Ideal forms of gender, generational, conjugal and familial relations;

- Theories of kingship, justice and political authority; - Relations
between the divine and mortals, rulers and ruled, nature and human beings.

2. Interrelationships among religious dogmas, theologies, philosophies,
folk beliefs, and actual practices; varying concepts of the canonical in
religious traditions

3. Historical and contemporary studies of

- The growth or decay of syncretic traditions in religious texts,
practices and norms;

- The role and functions of dharmasthans, pilgrimage centres as well as
the control and management of religious institutions;

- The rise, decline and renewals of shramanic religious traditions within
Indic civilisation

4. The politics of religious conversion historically and/or in
contemporary India; Limits of religious authority within specific systems
of religious beliefs, norms, and practices for participants, dissenters
and outsiders.

5. The historical and contemporary impact of the rise of nationalism on
religious beliefs and practices, Gandhi's religion, and Hindu-Muslim
relations in 20th Century Indic civilization.

6. Special methodological concerns in the study of religions within Indic
civilization, and ways of approaching their resolution.

7. Contributions of Indic religions to cosmological speculation in 20th
century science.




Those who wish to submit preliminary ideas for major addresses, panels or
symposia to the Programme Committee chaired jointly by Professors T. N
Madan and Robert Thurman for possible selection should send a three
hundred word abstract to:  madhuk at csdsdelhi.org.

There will be a total of two hours allocated per session, including
presentations and discussion. Unless otherwise indicated, the person who
submits the proposal for a panel or symposium will be considered the
chair. He or she should list at least two but no more than four scholars
who make a commitment to present a paper on the topic, as well as one
other person who will respond to the panel of speakers. Each presenter
will have 20 minutes to give their paper; the respondent will have 10
minutes at the end of the presentations to make comments on the papers.
The remaining time will be devoted to discussion from the floor.

The abstracts for panels or symposia should include the main title of the
session and fully delineated subtitles for each of the presentations.

It will be the responsibility of the organiser of each of the panels or
symposia to make all efforts to assure that the scholars who will present
a paper are fully committed to participate, as well as confirm the
accuracy of the titles of the papers and the names of the participants
accepted as part of the agenda of the Conference.

Kindly furnish the following information along with the abstracts:

Name/s
Designation (Prof/Dr/Ms/Mr)
Institution
Type of Presentation
(Panel/Symposia/Major address)

Mailing address and phone number of correspondent, including, if possible,
E-mail address

For panel/symposia submissions, please provide full names and mailing
addresses of all the panelists, specifying the name of the panel organiser
along with their e-mail addresses.

Last date for submission of abstracts has been extended to December 15
2002.

Final Date for Confirmation of accepted proposals: January 31, 2003

Postal correspondence:
The Programme Committee, IAHR Conference
Centre for the Study of Developing Societies
29 Rajpur Road, Delhi-110054, (India)
Fax: 0091-11-394 3450
Programme Dates:
December 18, 2003: Opening of the Conference & Inaugural Address followed
by dinner
December 19, 2003: Academic Sessions
December 20, 2003: Academic Sessions
December 21, 2003: Academic Sessions (Full Day) and the farewell dinner

Registration Fee:
Local Participants: Early Bird (July 31, 2003): Rs 500; Late Registration:
Rs 600
Foreign Participants: Early Bird (July 31, 2003): US $ 175; Late
Registration: US $ 200
Full Time Students: Rs 300
Full Time Students: US $ 75

Accommodation:
The India International Centre, the venue of our Conference, has very
comfortable air-conditioned rooms. The occupancy rates are as follows:
Single Room: US$ 40 (without breakfast) plus taxes
Double Occupancy: US$ 65 (without breakfast) plus taxes

Programme Committee

Ashis Nandy D.L. Sheth Muzaffar Alam Rama Kant Agnihotri Shail MayaramShiv
Visvanathan Suresh Sharma Wagish Shukla

Internationa Committee

Prof. P. Kumar (Chair) Prof. A. Geertz (Gen. Secretary, IAHR) Prof. A.
Khan (Canada) Prof. Karma Oraon, Indian Association for the Study of
Religions


_______________________________

Armin W. Geertz
Professor, Dr. Phil.

Department of the Study of Religion
University of Aarhus, Taasingegade 3
DK-8000 Aarhus C, Denmark
ph.: +45-89422306
fax: +45-86130490
e-mail: geertz at teologi.au.dk
website: http://www.teo.au.dk

General Secretary of the
International Association for
the History of Religions (IAHR)
(http://www.iahr.dk)
_______________________________




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Nov 18 15:34:37 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 02 10:34:37 -0500
Subject: summer program in Gujarat
Message-ID: <161227071724.23782.5829315110304182668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I forward an announcement about a new summer school program in Gujarat

Allen Thrasher

I wonder if I can request you to share information about a summer
program I
have developed for Gujarat. The web address is
http://isc.temple.edu/jjhala/templeindia/.



Marcia J. Frost
Assistant Professor of Economics
Wittenberg University
Springfield, OH 45501
937-327-7935




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Wed Nov 20 01:24:03 2002
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 02 20:24:03 -0500
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227071726.23782.11129850891580560269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

Although Sumit Guha shows no signs of being interested in such things, I
would remind other list members of earlier discussions on this list
concerning these matters.  I recall one that took place in May 1998 or
thereabouts, and which can be tracked down on the list archives under the
subject "Iranians in Ancient India."

If discussion of an Iranian presence in ancient India offends, well, let us
turn instead to a discussion of Indians in ancient Iran.  There is good
evidence for such a presence too, if anyone is interested.  Does this subject
offend anyone?

As for Central Asia in general, there is no question whatsoever that there is
a significant Central Asian substratum present in early Indic and Iranian
languages and cultures.

I am presently working on the very good evidence that suggests that the Vedic
Soma cult has significant roots in some Central Asian substrate language.
The evidence is purely linguistic and philological.  No Jungian Aryanism in
it whatsoever.

This "Iranian heresy" business is NOT an attack on the indigenous origins of
Buddhism by racialist theorists.  To persist in saying so is sheer blindness,
induced by uninformed poltical correctness.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG  Wed Nov 20 03:34:22 2002
From: dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG (dean_anderson at SACARI.ORG)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 02 22:34:22 -0500
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227071728.23782.4781448000997563648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> If discussion of an Iranian presence in ancient India offends, well, let
us
> turn instead to a discussion of Indians in ancient Iran.  There is good
> evidence for such a presence too, if anyone is interested.  Does this
subject
> offend anyone?

It doesn't offend me but it does interest me. Could you elaborate?

Dean Anderson




From Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU  Wed Nov 20 23:56:30 2002
From: Sumit_Guha at BROWN.EDU (Sumit Guha)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 02 18:56:30 -0500
Subject: LAST POST on Sakas etc
Message-ID: <161227071731.23782.4824301868553572542.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

It is amusing to find the same position being labeled Hindu primordialist a
la P.N. Oak by Professor Witzel and blind political correctness by
Professor Thompson.

Professor Thompson writes:

<<This "Iranian heresy" business is NOT an attack on the indigenous origins
of Buddhism by racialist theorists.  To persist in saying so is sheer
blindness,induced by uninformed poltical correctness.>>


Actually, ideas (or "discourses") have logical implications QUITE
INDEPENDENT of the good or bad intentions of those who propound them. I
attribute no motives whatever to anybody who writes on this subject and
would never dream of falling into the ad hominem fallacy of regarding such
an attribution as equivalent to a refutation.

The Iranian connection of Buddhism could be proven by AND ONLY BY one or
more of the following arguments:

1. It arose out of religious debates current from Iran up to the eastern
Gangetic plain

2. IF NOT THE ABOVE, THEN
connected by an ethnic identity that was recognized by Saka and Sakya alike

3. IF NOT THAT, THEN
by having its origins in psychic traits somehow inherited by both separate
populations (the Jungian route)

4. OR, FINALLY, because the populations were genetically close to each
other than to intervening populations (William Z. Ripley for example).

No one has seriously defended (1) or (2).
(Soma and its ritual was of no significance in Buddhism, nor was Surya
whose iconic representations easily show his Central Asian links, apart
from other evidence).

AND IF we give up (1) and (2) AND STILL insist on the connection, it can
only founded (3) and/or (4).

This conclusion says nothing about the personal beliefs, motives and
outlook of the scholars concerned.

Anyway, I think this topic grows tedious to many list members. I shall be
happy to continue the discussion off the list.

sincerely,
Sumit Guha




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Nov 20 21:51:45 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 02 21:51:45 +0000
Subject: CSX+ Font: Now all 4 styles available: Roman, Bold, Italic,              Bold Italic (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071729.23782.13662281137768892331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:59:53 +0100
From: Ulrich.Stiehl <Ulrich.Stiehl at t-online.de>
Subject: CSX+ Font: Now all 4 styles available: Roman, Bold, Italic,
     Bold Italic

As of today, all 4 styles are available of the new CSX+ font

Of the newly designed font (with the old unchanged encoding),
which is now compatible with Word and Windows of ALL versions
from old Word for Windows 3.1 up to Word for Windows XP 2002,
all four styles (Roman, Bold, Italic, Bold Italic) have been
finished today. The fonts are NOT downloadable on my font site
(http://home.t-online.de/home/ulrich.stiehl/polfonts.htm), but
ONLY available via email (as pacsxp4.zip, size: 180 kilobyte),
because I want to learn (for myself and for the GRETIL site),
how many Indologists still work with and use CSX+ encoding.
Please send request via email to ulrich.stiehl at t-online.de
For technical details on this new font visit my font site.

Ulrich Stiehl, Heidelberg




From sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU  Thu Nov 21 10:16:34 2002
From: sogbs at CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU (Geoffrey Samuel)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 02 10:16:34 +0000
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227071734.23782.11690390205292790908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Speaking for myself, I don't find it at all tedious, and would
welcome further  discussion on the list.

Geoffrey Samuel

>Anyway, I think this topic grows tedious to many list members. I shall be
>happy to continue the discussion off the list.
>
>sincerely,
>Sumit Guha

--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * *
Geoffrey Samuel and Santi Rozario, School of Social Sciences, University
of Newcastle, NSW 2308, Australia (CRICOS provider number 00109J).
Web site at http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~mbbgbs
Postal address July-Dec 2002: c/o G. Samuel, Oriental Institute, Pusey Lane,
Oxford OX1 2LE, UK. Home telephone numbers October-December 2002:
Geoffrey in Oxford 01865 429479; Santi in Manchester 0161 226 4795
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * *




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Thu Nov 21 16:37:31 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John Huntington)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 02 11:37:31 -0500
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <a05111b02ba0262ff0ff9@[213.105.144.99]>
Message-ID: <161227071736.23782.8786845814870676561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have to agree.  could the principles in the discussion put together
a position presentation (very short) and let us see where it goes.

I for, one have no biases in either direction, it more a matter of
timing and historical context for me.

If we push the veil of history back far enough, we'll get back to the
African eve problem, and I do not think that is the point or the
purpose, rather closer ties would seem more appropriate.

What about the later phases of Iranian influence for example in
Kushan and post-Kushan thinking?

John .

>Speaking for myself, I don't find it at all tedious, and would
>welcome further  discussion on the list.
>
>Geoffrey Samuel
>
>>Anyway, I think this topic grows tedious to many list members. I shall be
>>happy to continue the discussion off the list.
>>
>>sincerely,
>>Sumit Guha

--
John C. Huntington, Professor
    (Buddhist Art and Methodologies)
Department of the History of Art
108 North Oval Mall
The Ohio state University
Columbus, OH 43210-1318 U.S.A.

huntington.2 at osu.edu
Phones:
Direct Line to office (614) 688-8198
Main Department Office: (614) 2927481
Fax: (614) 292-4401

Please visit the Huntington Archive website at
http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Fri Nov 22 13:11:32 2002
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 02 14:11:32 +0100
Subject: Voiced aspirate consonants and neighing (or other animal              cries)
In-Reply-To: <31.26ebbbac.2a1281ec@cs.com>
Message-ID: <161227071739.23782.10522589323801080171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear professor George Thompson,

it might be a pleasant "r?cr?ation"
(from other threads discussions)
if you could offer a comment
on my 9th of May 2002 post
<http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=P&S=&P=978>
as you had promised to do,
or if some other learned member could give an answer.

The question was whether there was a metaphor (involving animal cries)
for the sanskrit grammarians (or phoneticians)
in the description of sanskrit voiced consonants as ghoSavant
(and also in the description of other types of consonants)

To sum up the argument,
we see in a 13th century Tamil grammatical text
(mayilainAtar's commentary on nan2n2Ul)
an explaination in Tamil about the pronunciation
of those sanskrit occlusive consonants
that do not exist in the Tamil script,
i.e. kh, g, gh, ch, j, jh, Th, D, Dh, th, d, dh, ph, b & bh,
because Tamil script has only k, c, T, t, p (& _r)

If we select the occlusives of [k kh g gh] of the first series,
the respective prononciation of [kh], [g] & [gh]
are explained by specifying
the verbe collutal "to say, to pronounce"
by means of the converb (Tamil vin2ai eccam) of another verb.

The converb used as a specifier to the verb collutal is
"urappi" for kh, ch, Th, th & ph
"eTuttu" for g, j, D, d & b
"kan2aittu" for gh, jh, Dh, dh & bh

kan2aittu is the converb of kan2aittal
which is often used to express the cries of animals,
like the horse or other species
(Ex. kan2aitta mEti "bellowing buffalo" (Tev.1.69.6),
   kan2aikkum An2ai "roaring elephant" (Tev. 5.37.8)
although it has other meanings
  (see for instance George Hart[1999:13] )

eTuttu is the converb of eTuttal,
which had really many meanings, one of them being "to raise".
(the T.Lex mentions 25 meanings
and then gives 2 full pages of complex verbal expressions
based on eTuttal, as if it had been used to be the equivalent
of a sanskrit preverb.)

urappi is the converb of urapputal,
which has several meanings, one of them
being "to frighten by roaring/ to roar in a frightening way"
  (tev. 4.107.3)

So, in order to make this message short,
let me try one last time to ask you
and other scholars this question:

Was the 13th century Tamil Scholar
(also proficient in Sanskrit)
who explained to his tamil students
the pronunciation of gh, jh, etc.
by using as a specifier
a verb usually used
for animal cries
simply routinely translating into Tamil
an ordinary sanskrit metaphor?

If the answer is yes,
can you provide references?

Thanks for your attention

Best wishes

-- Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard
  (CNRS, University Paris 7,
History of Linguistics Research Team [UMR 7597, HTL])


At 11:06 14/05/02 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated 5/9/02 8:42:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes:


 > :    jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
 >

Dear Professor Chevillard,

Please accept my apologies for not responding sooner to your request for
information on this matter.  I have been away for several days at a
conference, and now I must depart for a few more days to retrieve my son, who
is returning home from school.

I will try to offer a response to your questions upon my return.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Nov 22 22:35:58 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 02 17:35:58 -0500
Subject: Voiced aspirate consonants and neighing (or other animal              cries)
Message-ID: <161227071741.23782.4784701258997960422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have not seen the use of animal cries used in Sanskrit phonetic texts as metaphors specifically for explaining voiced, aspirated consonants, though the animal cries as well as cries of buttermilk selling women from Saurashtra etc. are cited to explain vowel length, pitch, nasality of anusvaara etc.  There are also descriptions of particular consonant clusters using animal cries.  Here are a few examples from the Zik.saasamgraha edited by Ram Prasad Tripathi, Sampurnananda Samsk.rta Vizvavidyaalaya, Banaras1989 (Gopinath Kaviraaja Granthamaalaa, vol. 3).

Verse 70, Yaajn~valkyazik.saa, p. 8: U.smaa "aspiration" should be pronounced like the exhailed breath of a young snake.

Verse 185, YZ, p. 24:  The geminate in the word kukku.ta should be pronounced like the pronunciation of two k-sounds by a rooster in love.

Verse 186: Just as a mare moves her vulva when she sees a stallion, so one should pronounce sounds in the word dundubhi.

Verse 187, YZ, p. 24:  Just as a woman excited in love makes sounds each day, so should one pronounce the sound in si.mhyasi.

Verse 190, YZ, p. 24:  Just as a Sauraa.s.tran woman says araaM, so should the ranga sound be pronounced without the velar n.

Verse 59, Paaraazariizik.saa, p. 51:  Just as a ghost in an empty house screems but is not seen, so sould one pronounce the sounds in the example upajjman.

Verse 64, PZ, p. 51:  Just as a woman kisses her son again and again with affection, so sould one pronounce the sounds in the example yun~jaana.

One can add a few more to this sample, but I have not seen exact parallels to the Tamil descriptions.  Best,

                                                                                Madhav Deshpande
> ----------
> From:         Jean-Luc Chevillard
> Reply To:     Indology
> Sent:         Friday, November 22, 2002 8:11 AM
> To:   INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> Subject:           Re: Voiced aspirate consonants and neighing (or other animal              cries)
> 
> Dear professor George Thompson,
> 
> it might be a pleasant "r?cr?ation"
> (from other threads discussions)
> if you could offer a comment
> on my 9th of May 2002 post
> <http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=P&S=&P=978>
> as you had promised to do,
> or if some other learned member could give an answer.
> 
> The question was whether there was a metaphor (involving animal cries)
> for the sanskrit grammarians (or phoneticians)
> in the description of sanskrit voiced consonants as ghoSavant
> (and also in the description of other types of consonants)
> 
> To sum up the argument,
> we see in a 13th century Tamil grammatical text
> (mayilainAtar's commentary on nan2n2Ul)
> an explaination in Tamil about the pronunciation
> of those sanskrit occlusive consonants
> that do not exist in the Tamil script,
> i.e. kh, g, gh, ch, j, jh, Th, D, Dh, th, d, dh, ph, b & bh,
> because Tamil script has only k, c, T, t, p (& _r)
> 
> If we select the occlusives of [k kh g gh] of the first series,
> the respective prononciation of [kh], [g] & [gh]
> are explained by specifying
> the verbe collutal "to say, to pronounce"
> by means of the converb (Tamil vin2ai eccam) of another verb.
> 
> The converb used as a specifier to the verb collutal is
> "urappi" for kh, ch, Th, th & ph
> "eTuttu" for g, j, D, d & b
> "kan2aittu" for gh, jh, Dh, dh & bh
> 
> kan2aittu is the converb of kan2aittal
> which is often used to express the cries of animals,
> like the horse or other species
> (Ex. kan2aitta mEti "bellowing buffalo" (Tev.1.69.6),
>    kan2aikkum An2ai "roaring elephant" (Tev. 5.37.8)
> although it has other meanings
>   (see for instance George Hart[1999:13] )
> 
> eTuttu is the converb of eTuttal,
> which had really many meanings, one of them being "to raise".
> (the T.Lex mentions 25 meanings
> and then gives 2 full pages of complex verbal expressions
> based on eTuttal, as if it had been used to be the equivalent> 
> of a sanskrit preverb.)
> 
> urappi is the converb of urapputal,
> which has several meanings, one of them
> being "to frighten by roaring/ to roar in a frightening way"
>   (tev. 4.107.3)
> 
> So, in order to make this message short,
> let me try one last time to ask you
> and other scholars this question:
> 
> Was the 13th century Tamil Scholar
> (also proficient in Sanskrit)
> who explained to his tamil students
> the pronunciation of gh, jh, etc.
> by using as a specifier
> a verb usually used
> for animal cries
> simply routinely translating into Tamil
> an ordinary sanskrit metaphor?
> 
> If the answer is yes,
> can you provide references?
> 
> Thanks for your attention
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> -- Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard
>   (CNRS, University Paris 7,
> History of Linguistics Research Team [UMR 7597, HTL])
> 
> 
> At 11:06 14/05/02 -0400, you wrote:
> In a message dated 5/9/02 8:42:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR writes:
> 
> 
>  > :    jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
>  >
> 
> Dear Professor Chevillard,
> 
> Please accept my apologies for not responding sooner to your request for
> information on this matter.  I have been away for several days at a
> conference, and now I must depart for a few more days to retrieve my son, who
> is returning home from school.
> 
> I will try to offer a response to your questions upon my return.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> George Thompson
> 
> 




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Nov 22 23:56:01 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 02 23:56:01 +0000
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071743.23782.1864295248557062242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:10:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Troy Dean Harris <troyoga at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism

[...]

George Thompson, in private correspondence, remarked to me:

"Again, to call Buddhism an "Iranian heresy" is certainly tendentious and
provocative, but it is not entirely wrong."

And I agree with this; this playful rebound off prevailing Vedic edifice,
according to which - in any case - Buddhism is explicitly a heretical
movement. However, what I really find striking here is that those taking
cover behind predictable barricades face the additionally irksome prospect
that their treasured national heresiarch may very well turn out to be of
non-Indian origin. More undermining still is the clear implication that
the very notion of "India" itself is largely a historical misnomer.

Nevertheless, I wonder why in spite of indisputable evidence of Iranian
cultural presence in ancient Magadha/Bihar, we repeatedly find the date
"140 BCE" as the starting point for mass Iranian migration into India? I
refer to Michael Witzel:

Furthermore the tribal name of the Buddha, Sakya (Skt. Shakya), attested
only in post-Vedic times, in the Pali canon (approx. 250 BC), can not be
separated from the self-designation of the northern Iranians (Saka), _who
otherwise entered India only after 140 BC._ via Sistan.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=indology&P=R1051
(italics mine).

Perhaps it is just a matter of my lack of background knowledge in these
matters, but would not Magadha have been a fully developed cultural sphere
even well before the traditionally accepted times of the quasi-historical
Buddha? For as you have plainly set forth, Magadha itself is an Iranian
term:

Magus, "sun-priest" is not attested in Vedic [but] is a borrowing from
Iranian into Skt. [This] seems clear, esp. in light of the variant form
magu (cf. Avest. moGu, Old Pers. magu).

Mayrhofer in KEWA [II.544, under "magaH"] cites zAkadvIpa as possibly =
"Sakenland"...derived clearly from Iranian.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R28931&D=1&F=P&O=D.

_________

I actually find the proposition quite endearing that to some degree the
code-word "Buddha" represents a yet undecipherable compendium of Old
Iranian asceto-shamano-philosophic lore.

Regards,

Troy Dean Harris





Homepage: www.apsara.clara.co.uk/troyoga




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Nov 23 00:11:55 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 02 00:11:55 +0000
Subject: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071745.23782.6283481145488211093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:10:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Troy Dean Harris <troyoga at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Saka, Sakya and Buddhism


[...]
George Thompson, in private correspondence, remarked to me:

"Again, to call Buddhism an "Iranian heresy" is certainly tendentious and
provocative, but it is not entirely wrong."

And I agree with this; this playful rebound off prevailing Vedic edifice,
according to which - in any case - Buddhism is explicitly a heretical
movement. However, what I really find striking here is that those taking
cover behind predictable barricades face the additionally irksome prospect
that their treasured national heresiarch may very well turn out to be of
non-Indian origin. More undermining still is the clear implication that
the very notion of "India" itself is largely a historical misnomer.

Nevertheless, I wonder why in spite of indisputable evidence of Iranian
cultural presence in ancient Magadha/Bihar, we repeatedly find the date
"140 BCE" as the starting point for mass Iranian migration into India? I
refer to Michael Witzel:

Furthermore the tribal name of the Buddha, Sakya (Skt. Shakya), attested
only in post-Vedic times, in the Pali canon (approx. 250 BC), can not be
separated from the self-designation of the northern Iranians (Saka), _who
otherwise entered India only after 140 BC._ via Sistan.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0211&L=indology&P=R1051
(italics mine).

Perhaps it is just a matter of my lack of background knowledge in these
matters, but would not Magadha have been a fully developed cultural sphere
even well before the traditionally accepted times of the quasi-historical
Buddha? For as you have plainly set forth, Magadha itself is an Iranian
term:

Magus, "sun-priest" is not attested in Vedic [but] is a borrowing from
Iranian into Skt. [This] seems clear, esp. in light of the variant form
magu (cf. Avest. moGu, Old Pers. magu).

Mayrhofer in KEWA [II.544, under "magaH"] cites zAkadvIpa as possibly =
"Sakenland"...derived clearly from Iranian.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R28931&D=1&F=P&O=D.

_________

I actually find the proposition quite endearing that to some degree the
code-word "Buddha" represents a yet undecipherable compendium of Old
Iranian asceto-shamano-philosophic lore.

Regards,

Troy Dean Harris





Homepage: www.apsara.clara.co.uk/troyoga




From indologia at LATINMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 23 13:42:03 2002
From: indologia at LATINMAIL.COM (humanidades India)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 02 08:42:03 -0500
Subject: King words
Message-ID: <161227071749.23782.11882603273025914934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dearest friends:
Nasmate!! I am looking the more used words in the Mahabharata for Kings: raja, nripa or some thing like that?? I haven't any sanscrit editions or lingusitic studies about this in my area. So, could of your gently personas scholars in sanscrit send one answer , bibliographical references??. It os for my thesis work.
Horacio F. Arganis
www.uadec.mx


_________________________________________________________
http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.




From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK  Sat Nov 23 10:21:42 2002
From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (John Brockington)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 02 10:21:42 +0000
Subject: two queries
In-Reply-To: <a05111b02ba0262ff0ff9@[213.105.144.99]>
Message-ID: <161227071747.23782.14910116836760219758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

1)  Can anyone tell me the date of birth (year is sufficient) of Professor
V. Venkatachalam, who died earlier this year?  He was a former VC of
Sampurnanand and Kameshwar Singh Sanskrit Universities and President of the
Indian Council for Philosophical Research.

2)  Does anyone have an up-to-date e-mail address for Thomas Oberlies?  I
have only his Freiburg one, which is no longer operational.

With thanks

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies

Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies
7 Buccleuch Place
Edinburgh   EH8 9LW        U.K.

tel:  +131 650 4174
fax: +131 651 1258




From Scharf at BROWN.EDU  Sat Nov 23 23:21:41 2002
From: Scharf at BROWN.EDU (Peter M. Scharf)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 02 18:21:41 -0500
Subject: Voiced aspirate consonants and neighing (or other animal              cries)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021122140318.00a6e1a0@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <161227071752.23782.16211004406024347053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sanskrit grammarians do use animal sounds as analogies to speech
sounds.  Though it may have been an explanation provided by a modern
traditional teacher (I cannot find the references at present in a
quick glance through the commentaries), one explanation of the use of
the vowels 'u U 3u' under Pa 1.2.27 UkAlo 'jjhrasvadIrghaplutaH to
explain the three durations of vowels in Sanskrit is that it imitates
the crowing of the rooster.
Sincerely,
Peter Scharf

>Was the 13th century Tamil Scholar
>(also proficient in Sanskrit)
>who explained to his tamil students
>the pronunciation of gh, jh, etc.
>by using as a specifier
>a verb usually used
>for animal cries
>simply routinely translating into Tamil
>an ordinary sanskrit metaphor?
>
>If the answer is yes,
>can you provide references?
>
>Thanks for your attention
>
>Best wishes
>
>-- Dr. Jean-Luc Chevillard
>  (CNRS, University Paris 7,
>History of Linguistics Research Team [UMR 7597, HTL])

--
**************************************************
Peter M. Scharf             (401) 863-2720 office
Department of Classics      (401) 863-2123 dept
Brown University
PO Box 1856                 (401) 863-7484 fax
Providence, RI 02912        Scharf at brown.edu
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Classics/Scharf/
http://sanskritlibrary.org/
**************************************************




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Nov 25 16:36:36 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 11:36:36 -0500
Subject: two queries
Message-ID: <161227071760.23782.7972374967329693344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If this is the V. Venkatachalam who wrote "Sankaracharya, the ship of
enlightenment," "Visva-drshti," "Bhasa" and the catalog of the
manuscripts in the Sindiya Pracya Samsthana, he was born in 1925,
according to the Library of Congress catalog <catalog.loc.gov>.

Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
of Congress.




From sbaums at GMX.NET  Mon Nov 25 19:40:51 2002
From: sbaums at GMX.NET (Stefan Baums)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 11:40:51 -0800
Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.44.0211251526390.3404-100000@Anat-lws119.anat.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227071761.23782.14968001024263187285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> but a lot of diacritical letters required for
> translitering Indic scripts have not been defined by the Unicode
> consortium

Could you give examples?  In my experience, all characters used in
Indology _are_ in Unicode; for a very few, one has to use combining
diacritics, but most are even available precomposed, and this
difference would be hidden from the end user anyway.  Maybe you would
like to give the Gandhari Unicode font a try:

   http://depts.washington.edu/ebmp/software.html

This is a font that does cover all Indological diacritics, and in
recent versions does not use the Private Use Area anymore.  I do think
that Unicode is the one character encoding that Indologists should
migrate to, and then the regrettable incompabilities between
institute's private encodings that you mention will disappear.

Best regards,
Stefan Baums

--
Stefan Baums
Asian Languages and Literature
University of Washington




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Nov 25 10:07:44 2002
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 12:07:44 +0200
Subject: two queries
Message-ID: <161227071754.23782.12583676480276765085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

John Brockington wrote:
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> 1)  Can anyone tell me the date of birth (year is sufficient) of Professor
> V. Venkatachalam, who died earlier this year?  He was a former VC of
> Sampurnanand and Kameshwar Singh Sanskrit Universities and President of the
> Indian Council for Philosophical Research.
1925
--
Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D.
Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094




From asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov 25 21:22:33 2002
From: asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Glass)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 13:22:33 -0800
Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20021125194051.GB819@deepthought>
Message-ID: <161227071763.23782.783394481425123455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I should clarify a point in the last posting. The Gandhari Unicode font
(GU) does contain characters in the Private Use area (PUA). However, since
the new version of GU contains a complete set of combining diacritics, it
is nolonger necessary to use the PUA glyphs. I have kept the PUA characters
in the font for the sake of backwards compatibility with older versions.
Also the precomposed characters in the PUA often look better than
composite glyphs created with combining diacritics, so some people,
particularly typesetters, will prefer to continue using the PUA characters. This will
be the case until I produce an OpenType version of the font.

However, as Stefan Baums pointed out in his posting, only a very few
characters will require combining diacritics or PUA glyphs, for normal
Indological work. The GU font was created for transliteration of Gandhari,
which requires numerous special diacritics. Most of the PUA glyphs in the
GU font are for Gandhari, Nuristani and Dardic. So this complaint about
Unicode fonts should really be a minor concern. The benefits of
standardization presented by Unicode are far greater.

Andrew Glass

_____________________
Andrew Glass
Department of Asian Languages & Literature
353521
University of Washington
Seattle, Washington 98195
asg at u.washington.edu

On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Stefan Baums wrote:

> > but a lot of diacritical letters required for
> > translitering Indic scripts have not been defined by the Unicode
> > consortium
>
> Could you give examples?  In my experience, all characters used in
> Indology _are_ in Unicode; for a very few, one has to use combining
> diacritics, but most are even available precomposed, and this
> difference would be hidden from the end user anyway.  Maybe you would
> like to give the Gandhari Unicode font a try:
>
>    http://depts.washington.edu/ebmp/software.html
>
> This is a font that does cover all Indological diacritics, and in
> recent versions does not use the Private Use Area anymore.  I do think
> that Unicode is the one character encoding that Indologists should
> migrate to, and then the regrettable incompabilities between
> institute's private encodings that you mention will disappear.
>
> Best regards,
> Stefan Baums
>
> --
> Stefan Baums
> Asian Languages and Literature
> University of Washington
>




From jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK  Mon Nov 25 14:02:34 2002
From: jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK (Julia Leslie)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 14:02:34 +0000
Subject: publication
Message-ID: <161227071756.23782.1630557854126117267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,

Those of you engaged in the teaching of Indian religions may be
interested to know about the following new publication from C. Hurst
Publishers.

Indian Religions
A Historical Reader of Spiritual Expression and Experience
Peter Heehs (ed.)

Indian Religions is a specially commissioned reader of the key
written and oral texts by spiritual teachers from India, from the Rig
Veda (3,500 BC) to the present day.   All the major traditions -
Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism and 'new' Indian
religions -  are included. The texts are presented in overlapping
sections, each comprising a historically and thematically defined
stage of a religion.  This allows the development of the various
traditions to be followed without their being isolated from one
another. No single book could adequately select texts representing
all aspects of Indian religion (ritual, institutions, ethics, myth,
philosophy, experience), hence the focus of this reader is on
individual religious experience.  And since most Indian traditions
preserve texts featuring experiential religion, and this selection
covers a wide range of traditions, the book provides an unusually
comprehensive introduction to the history of religions of South Asia.
The introduction discusses the phenomenon of spiritual experience
and its relationship to organised religion, and current controversies
in the study of mysticism. The book will appeal to all readers
interested in India and Eastern religions, and to undergraduate
students of religions and of South Asian culture.

Peter Heehs is Director of Historical Research at the Sri Aurobindo
Ashram Archives, Pondicherry, India, and contributes to Modern
Asian Studies, History Today and Art India.

x, 600pp.  Published 6 November, 2002

Pbk: ?16.50 1-85065-496-4

Hbk: ?45.00 1-85065-497-2

Contents: Introduction  I: Foundations (c. 1200 BCE to c. 300 CE) -
The Vedas -  The Upanishads -  Jainism -  Theravada Buddhism -
Sankhya and Yoga  II: Developments (c. 200 BCE to c. 1000 CE) -
The Bhagavad Gita -  Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism -  Tantra -
 The Puranas III: Elaborations (c. 150 to 1700 CE) - Spiritual
Philosophies - Indo-Persian Sufism IV: Reformulations (c. 700 to
1850) -  Devotional Mysticism -  The Sant Tradition -  Sikhism -
Popular Yoga Traditions - Popular Sufism V: Continuity and
Innovation (1850 to 2000) - Twelve Spiritual Teachers of Modern
India -  Four Spiritual Poets of Modern India.

(If you wish to request a course adoption copy of this book, please
write to Michael Dwyer -- hurst at atlas.co.uk -- stating the name of
the course and the number of students enrolled.)


TO ORDER A COPY OF: INDIAN RELIGIONS
SEE BELOW

Please complete the form below and return together with your
payment to:

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Telephone 0207-240-2666;  Fax 0207-240-2667;  Email:
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--



--------------------------------
Michael J. Dwyer (Director)
C. Hurst & Co. (Publishers) Ltd.
Africa Centre, 38 King Street
Covent Garden
London WC2E 8JZ
Phone: 020-7240-2666; Fax: 020-7240-2667
Mobile phone: 07720 049409
Email: hurst at atlas.co.uk
www.hurstpub.co.uk/




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Nov 25 15:27:40 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 15:27:40 +0000
Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071758.23782.2025467609150144427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:35:57 +0100
From: Ulrich.Stiehl <Ulrich.Stiehl at t-online.de>

Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists

A few days ago, I offered a new CSX+ font, compatible with latest versions of
Word and Windows. Exactly 10 indologists asked for a copy of the new CSX+ font.
For comparison, the new Itranslator software has been downloaded by more than
1200 users so far. This means that CSX+ encoding is practically "dead". Another
"dead" encoding is REE used by approx. 5 indologists worldwide. This means that
the text files, available from the GRETIL site in CSX+ and REE encoding, are
destined for a minority of approx. 15 indologists worldwide, who still use CSX+
or REE encoding. This deplorable situation is due to the fact that many
indological institutes devised their own priprietary schemes of transliteration.
For instance, in Germany, the universities at Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg,
Heidelberg, etc. etc. use their own transliteration encodings incompatible among
each other and incompatible with CSX+, REE and other encodings devised by
institutes in France, Italy etc. etc. Some are of the opinion that Unicode is a
way out of this encoding jungle, but a lot of diacritical letters required for
translitering Indic scripts have not been defined by the Unicode consortium, so
that these additional diacritics must be defined by font makers in the "Private
Use Area" (hexadecimal range E000-F8FF).

Ulrich.Stiehl at t-online.de




From sbaums at GMX.NET  Tue Nov 26 01:33:29 2002
From: sbaums at GMX.NET (Stefan Baums)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 17:33:29 -0800
Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0211251311080.51184-100000@dante25.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <161227071771.23782.15490624554076791606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To be even more precise: _all_ characters needed for the
transliteration of post-Vedic Sanskrit are available in Unicode in
precombined form.  Only for some characters with Vedic accent markings
are combining diacritics necessary.  (This is a white lie: a combining
diacritic is also needed for the encoding of upper-case jihvamuliya,
but surely that should not stop us.)  I enclose complete varnamalas
below.  This email is Unicode-encoded, so if your software supports
Unicode and is configured correctly you will be able to cut-and-paste
the characters from this email to other programs, save the email and
open it in your word processor, etc.

   a ? i ? u ? ? ? ? ? e o ai au
   ? ? ? ? ?
   k kh g gh ?
   c ch j jh ?
   ? ?h ? ?h ?
   t th d dh n
   p ph b bh m
   y r l v
   ? ? s
   h

   ? ?  ?? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ? ?i ? i ? ? ?u ? u

   A ? I ? U ? ? ? ? ? E O AI AU
   ? ? ? H? ?
   K KH G GH ?
   C CH J JH ?
   ? ?H ? ?H ?
   T TH D DH N
   P PH B BH M
   Y R L V
   ? ? S
   H

   ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ? ?I ?I ? ? ?U ?U

Best regards,
Stefan Baums

PS.  "Combining diacritic" means that e.g. ?? (long i with acute
accent) is encoded in two parts: a long i followed by a combining
acute accent.  With the right font technology, the acute accent will
automatically be positioned correctly on top of the long i, so that
the user need not concern himself at all with this technicality.

--
Stefan Baums
Asian Languages and Literature
University of Washington




From sbaums at GMX.NET  Tue Nov 26 01:56:42 2002
From: sbaums at GMX.NET (Stefan Baums)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 17:56:42 -0800
Subject: tardy response to two questions
In-Reply-To: <178.124f4403.2b142a9d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <161227071775.23782.2060113479381276677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> But in fact it also has the sense 'ear', as is
> shown by Avestan gaoSa, as well as Skt. compounds like azvaghoSa.

Is it not preferable to interpret the name AzvaghoSa as "horse-voiced"
instead of "horse-eared," just as Buddhaghosa would seem to mean
"having the voice," not "ears," "of the Buddha"?  Having the voice of
a horse (strong, clear) is certainly desirable in a general way, but
maybe there is some more particularly Buddhist idea behind this
animal-voice imagery, cf. the oft-invoked siMhanAda.

Stefan Baums

--
Stefan Baums
Asian Languages and Literature
University of Washington




From jkirk at SPRO.NET  Tue Nov 26 02:55:22 2002
From: jkirk at SPRO.NET (jkirk)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 19:55:22 -0700
Subject: Looking??
Message-ID: <161227071779.23782.12367465976202935553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sydney Mintz wrote a book about the sugar cane-- J Kirkpatrick
-----------
Mintz, Sidney Wilfred, 1922-
Sweetness and power : the place of sugar in modern history / Sidney W.
Mintz.
New York : Penguin Books, 1986, c1985.
xxx, 274 p., [12] p. of plates : ill. ; 20 cm.
===========================================



> Dear List:
>  I am looking for historical information about the sugar cane. You konw,
the ancientness, family, the firts references about it.???
> Your ever friend.
> Horacio F. Arganis
> www.uadec.mx




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Tue Nov 26 01:38:37 2002
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 20:38:37 -0500
Subject: tardy response to two questions
Message-ID: <161227071769.23782.5266488619696116927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

I think that it was Calvert Watkins who characterized philology as "slow
reading."  Well, perhaps it will be accepted that my tardy responses to
recent list discussions are at least partially attributable to philological
concerns of the sort that Watkins had in mind, and not just to laziness or
irresponsibility.  Indeed, I am a very slow reader, in any case.

I sincerely apologize to Jean-Luc Chevillard for forgetting to respond to his
interesting question.  If it were not an interesting question I would have
answered promptly with some kind of generically 'correct' answer.
Fortunately, Madhav Deshpande and Peter Scharf have come to my rescue with
their typically thorough and incisive posts, to which I have nothing to add.
Of course, in Old Indo-Iranian there is no evidence for the technical
phonological sense for ghoSa that one starts to see first, I suppose [Madhav?
Peter?], in the prAtizAkhyas.

Perhaps I can make a seamless segue here to the topic of Iranians in ancient
India, etc.

The word ghoSa in Skt./gaoSa in Avestan [and the associated verbal forms] is
an Indo-Iranian isolate which must be supposed to be borrowed from a Central
Asian substrate language [see the recent article on such words by A.
Lubotsky].  Rgvedic attestations suggest that ghoSa can cover human speech
and animal vocalizations as well.  It also covers the sound of thunder, soma
stones, chariots, the stamping of the feet in dance, as well as the obscure
articulations of the gods.  But in fact it also has the sense 'ear', as is
shown by Avestan gaoSa, as well as Skt. compounds like azvaghoSa.  I have in
preparation a paper on "The Language of *daEuuas*", which basically asserts
that that language was Vedic; that is, that there was some measure of mutual
knowledge between speakers of Avestan and speakers of Vedic, in the old days
after the linguistic divide . Those people referred to in the RV as *a'deva*
or *devani'd* were in some cases Iranians, and Mazdayasnians.  Likewise whose
people who were known in Avestan as *daevayasna* were in some cases Vedic.
The evidence for this needs to be sorted out, and I intend to correlate this
with Lubotsky's proposal for a Central Asian substratum.

The well-known motif that one finds in Late Avestan that distinguishes
between an Ahuric lexicon [with positive connotations] and a Daevic lexicon
[with negative connotations] seems to correlate, at times, with the lexicon
of words derivable from the substrate language proposed by Lubotsky.  Since
we've been talking about ears, let us consider these ear-words:

The Ahuric word 'uS-' has many IE cognates, including Eng. 'ear', Grk 'ous',
Lat. 'auris', etc.  But no Sanskrit cognate.

The Daevic word kar at na on the other hand does have a Skt cognate 'karNa', but
it lacks a sure IE etymology.  It appears in Lubotsky's list of inherited
words

Then there's gaoSa [= Vedic ghoSa], referring mostly to Ahuric ears, except
for kauruuO-gaoSa "bald-eared" of the god of drought, ApaoSa.   Lacking a
good IE etymology, it appears in Lubotsky's list of words borrowed from this
substrate language

Furthermore, there is the insight that can be gotten from the study of
onomastics.  When we consider the many  contributions of Michael Witzel to
these questions, we must acknowledge that he has led the way into the study
of Vedic onomastics, in the footsteps of his teachers K. Hoffmann and F.B.J.
Kuiper.  These are the proper inflluences, strictly philological, on him,
instead of the bizarrely uninformed suggestions of Sumit Guha that he has
been influenced by some Jungian Aryanism.  Besides Witzel's many articles and
those of Hoffmann, the monographs on Iranian onomastics by M. Mayrhofer and
R. Schmitt should be consulted.  Some onomastic examples: tuSAspa in Indic
can only be an Iranian name, because the final member -aspa, 'horse' can only
be Iranian.  Likewise, the Iranian name dAztAgni must be an Indic name
because the final member -agni, can only be Indic.

In conclusion, the point is this: in conjunction with the archaeological
researches of F. Hiebert, C.C. Lamberg-Karlovsky, et al., the philological
work of M. Witzel, et al, reveals the outlines of an extraordinarily rich
exchange of several cultures of early Central and South Asia in early
Indo-Iranian texts.  The crude distinctions of earlier generations must be
abandoned. The careful distinctions of recent philology must be embraced.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From indologia at LATINMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 26 01:49:52 2002
From: indologia at LATINMAIL.COM (humanidades India)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 20:49:52 -0500
Subject: Looking??
Message-ID: <161227071773.23782.12751833693478411651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Dear List:
 I am looking for historical information about the sugar cane. You konw, the ancientness, family, the firts references about it.???
Your ever friend.
Horacio F. Arganis
www.uadec.mx



_________________________________________________________
http://www.latinmail.com.  Gratuito, latino y en espa?ol.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Nov 26 00:02:23 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 00:02:23 +0000
Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227071767.23782.1489572222061689778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:01:15 -0500
From: Harry Spier <harryspier at hotmail.com>

Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists



Re: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists

I think the fact that so few copies of the new CSX+  fonts were downloaded
versus downloads of itranslator99 may give a false impression that CSX+
encoding is not being used anymore.  My own experience has been that in
practice (at least for english and sanskrit) Dr. Smiths fonts work problem
free.  I've been using them for years now in all versions of WORD and
WINDOWS (including 2000 and XP)and QUARKXPRESS without any problems .
(Except for the strange fact that CSX+ m with under-dot in a QUARKXPRESS
file when exported to a PDF file or printer with an Adobe driver is changed
to u with umlaut.  But in this case I think this is a QUARKXPRESS bug, since
when exported to WORD etc. there is no problem, or in printing if the
printer has a non-Adobe driver installed there again is no problem.) I don't
use the characters that have now been indicated as problematic and I'm
wondering how often in practice these would be used by Indologists.  Of
course the "u" with umlaut would be used with German.  The only time I see
"c" with curlyque underneath is in reprints of some 19th century books
(Whitneys grammar etc.).  How often in practice do indologists use grave or
acute accents?  (I'm only familiar with Taittiriya accents where I use
single straight quote, double straight quote [dirgha svarita], and
underline.).  My own impression was that (at least in terms of on-line
texts) CSX+ was the most common diacritical encoding.  I suspect that
Itranslator99 is used mainly for its VERY USER FRIENDLY conversion of ITRANS
to Devanagari.  In this case also I had the impression that for Windows
XDVNG was the more common devanagari encoding (at least for on-line texts).

Regards,
Harry


Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747




From GRUENEN at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Tue Nov 26 07:49:18 2002
From: GRUENEN at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 07:49:18 +0000
Subject: CSX+ ... and GRETIL
Message-ID: <161227071783.23782.9161830858526511603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,


Ulrich Stiehl's personal score is 1,200 requests for "Itranslator"
against 10 / 5 for his CSX+ / REE fonts, which leads him to the
conclusion that "the files available from the GRETIL site ... are
destined for a minority of approx. 15 indologists worldwide."
Think of them what you will, but they certainly are busy bees,
each and every one of them having to visit the GRETIL site an average
of 26 times a day - if I may throw in a bit of statistics, too.


But maybe it's a different ball game altogether. For a start, we
should distinguish between fonts and encodings: Although I'm
one of the dinosaurs who, for want of alternatives, use REE
encoding for certain jobs, I haven't used an REE-based font since
around 1989, - and, for reasons explained to Ulrich Stiehl on earlier
occasions, have no intention of doing so in future. And as I infer
from Dominik Wujastyk's response, there does not seem to be a
pressing demand for a new CSX+ font either.


As for encodings, to me REE - like CSX(+) - is just one way of
coping with THE congenital defect of the "personal computer": 437,
the mother of all codepages, was shaped according to the needs of the
English-speaking parts of the world, and later attempts to patch
it up may differ in elaborateness, but not in principle. Anyway,
for the basic needs of GRETIL, one encoding is as good as any
other, as long as it is unambiguous. As for fonts, if Ulrich Stiehl
feels called upon to design fonts for REE and CSX+, that's all
very fine, but it has little to do with GRETIL's three basic
principles: no frames, no frills, no font packages. And, most
importantly, it should not be forgotten that GRETIL is only
intended as a reference tool!


The practical reasons why I opted for REE encoding as a
platform are explained in the introduction:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gret_ree.htm#Intro
In addition, CSX(+) not only covers the characters needed for
Dravidian languages etc., it also provides a much broader basis of
communication: I have no idea how many of you actually use
CSX(+), but I have reason to assume that many know how to
handle it, i.e., convert it to the encoding of choice.


It goes without saying that GRETIL cannot cover the entire
range of encodings used for Indian languages. But as it happens,
two more were intended to follow shortly, i.e., Kyoto-Harvard (KyH)
and UTF-8 (Roman). More on this soon to follow in a separate message.



Best regards

Reinhold Gruenendahl


P.S. Please, don't follow up the KyH and UTF-8 links presently
hidden in the source code of the GRETIL archive pages. Until
further notice, this will only produce error messages!

********************************************************************

Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien
(Dept. of Indology)

37070 Goettingen, Germany
Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83
Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61
gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de

FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm
In English:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm




From mccomas at CRES.ANU.EDU.AU  Mon Nov 25 22:19:29 2002
From: mccomas at CRES.ANU.EDU.AU (mccomas)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 09:19:29 +1100
Subject: CSX+ Encoding and other Encodings used by Indologists (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20021125194051.GB819@deepthought>
Message-ID: <161227071765.23782.11536045367467753108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends

I had a look at some of the Unicode fonts earlier in the year. They seemed
to support all the diacritics that I needed. The major problem for me was
that the two of the packages I use, NVivo and Endnote, did not support
Unicode, so I stuck with Times CSX. If you are considering a shift to
Unicode, make sure that the packages you use can handle it.

With greetings

McComas

. At 11:40  25/11/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > but a lot of diacritical letters required for
> > translitering Indic scripts have not been defined by the Unicode
> > consortium
>
>Could you give examples?  In my experience, all characters used in
>Indology _are_ in Unicode; for a very few, one has to use combining
>diacritics, but most are even available precomposed, and this
>difference would be hidden from the end user anyway.  Maybe you would
>like to give the Gandhari Unicode font a try:
>
>    http://depts.washington.edu/ebmp/software.html
>
>This is a font that does cover all Indological diacritics, and in
>recent versions does not use the Private Use Area anymore.  I do think
>that Unicode is the one character encoding that Indologists should
>migrate to, and then the regrettable incompabilities between
>institute's private encodings that you mention will disappear.
>
>Best regards,
>Stefan Baums
>
>--
>Stefan Baums
>Asian Languages and Literature
>University of Washington




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Tue Nov 26 15:16:05 2002
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 10:16:05 -0500
Subject: tardy response to two questions
Message-ID: <161227071786.23782.11026871134546236990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 11/26/02 12:39:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU writes:


> Can yo uplease provide a reference for the article by A. Lubotsky to which
> you refer.

Sorry.  I should have cited it fully, but I seem to be always in a hurry
these days.

Alexander Lubotsky: "The Indo-Iranian Substratum," in *Early Contacts between
Uralic and Indo-European: Linguistic and Archaeological Considerations
[Papers presented at an international symposium held atTvarminne Research
Station of the University of Helsinki 8-10 January, 1999]* edited by C.
Carpelan, A. Parpola & P. Koskikallio, published by Suomalais-Ugrilaisen
Seuren Toimituksia, Me'moires de la Socie'te' Finno-Ugrienne, no. 242,
Helsinki 2001.

In the same volume is another article of interest, by C. Carpelan and A.
Parpola: "Emergence, Contacts and Dispersal of Proto-Indo-European,
Proto-Uralic and Proto-Aryan in Archaeological Perspective."  There is much
discussion here of loan words from proto-IE and proto-Aryan into
proto-Uralic. If Asko Parpola is presently on the List, it would be
interesting to hear from him about these, as well as about the possibility of
loan words in the other direction [which are not mentioned in this article].

As for azvaghoSa, again, I have been a bit hasty, a bit elliptical, and
probably not a little tendentious.  I agree with Stefan Baums that within a
Buddhist context "horse-voiced" is preferable.  Similarly, buddhaghoSa, not
  at all "-eared"!  But in terms of reconstructing, from both the Iranian and
the Indic branches, what the meaning of the proto-form is in this unknown
substrate, it is impossible to decide whether "voice" or "ear" is preferable
[although Mayrhofer, KEWA I.364, asserts that 'Pferdeohe' is the older
meaning of this name].

In Old Persian 'gauSa' is always 'ear': Darius says [at DB 2.74] "Phraortes
was seized and led to me. I cut off his nose and ears [gauSA] and tongue..."

Well, I hope that this clarifies my previous post.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 26 21:17:20 2002
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 13:17:20 -0800
Subject: Insects in Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <003101c2873b$837469e0$2930cece@JKIRK>
Message-ID: <161227071788.23782.16164254612787744147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In additions to J.Kirk's and Matthew Kapstein's
responses one could refer to LAMBERT
SCHMITHAUSEN, 1997 Maitri and Magic - Aspects of
the Buddhist Attitude Toward the Dangerous in
Nature, Publikationen zur Buddhismuskunde im
Verlag der Akademie, Vienna. It deals with the
Buddhist attitude -- basically maitrii -- to
dangerous and obnoxious animals (including but
not limited to insects).
Jan Houben

--- jkirk <jkirk at SPRO.NET> wrote:
> Dear Jan,
> Suggest that your friend apply to the academic
> Buddhism list known as
> Buddha-L.
> Since he doesn't subscribe, he could send a
> query to the main moderator,
> Prof Richard Hayes, asking if Hayes could put
> his query on the list. He
> would need to supply an email address so people
> could reply to him off list,
> unless he wants to sub.
> Prof. Hayes's email is richard.hayes at mcgill.ca
> Regards,
> Joanna Kirkpatrick
> ==============================================
>  a query regarding the approach of Buddhism
> towards insects, vermin etc.
> > - apart from, and in addition to the general
> notion of "abandonment of
> harm to sentient beings". He has in mind such
> instances as using
> insecticides against vermin
> > destroying people's crops or killing
> "noxious" insects such as wasps or
> hornets
> > endangering human life, or farmers
> inadvertently killing dew-worms.
> > Are there any specific textual references to
> insects you may be aware of?
> > In appreciation of your metta and karuna,
> > Jan Filipsky
> > Jan Filipsky, PhD.
> > Oriental Institute
> > Pod vodarenskou vezi 4, 182 08 Praha 8
> > The Czech Republic


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com




From mccomas at CRES.ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Nov 26 02:40:37 2002
From: mccomas at CRES.ANU.EDU.AU (mccomas)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 13:40:37 +1100
Subject: tardy response to two questions
In-Reply-To: <20021126015642.GA1671@deepthought>
Message-ID: <161227071777.23782.8748050571099119504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends

If I remember correctly one of the early Chinese visitors to India (Hsuan
Tsang?) had heard of AzvaghoSa and translated his name as ma-ming =
`horse-voice'. This suggests that in the seventh century or so, the Indians
understood his name to name just that.

McComas

At 05:56  25/11/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > But in fact it also has the sense 'ear', as is
> > shown by Avestan gaoSa, as well as Skt. compounds like azvaghoSa.
>
>Is it not preferable to interpret the name AzvaghoSa as "horse-voiced"
>instead of "horse-eared," just as Buddhaghosa would seem to mean
>"having the voice," not "ears," "of the Buddha"?  Having the voice of
>a horse (strong, clear) is certainly desirable in a general way, but
>maybe there is some more particularly Buddhist idea behind this
>animal-voice imagery, cf. the oft-invoked siMhanAda.
>
>Stefan Baums
>
>--
>Stefan Baums
>Asian Languages and Literature
>University of Washington




From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Tue Nov 26 05:38:19 2002
From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Greg Bailey)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 16:38:19 +1100
Subject: tardy response to two questions
Message-ID: <161227071781.23782.17665000548292423567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear George,

Can yo uplease provide a reference for the article by A. Lubotsky to which
you refer.

Thanks,

Greg Bailey

----------
>From: George Thompson <GthomGt at CS.COM>
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: tardy response to two questions
>Date: Tue, Nov 26, 2002, 12:38 PM
>

> Dear List,
>
> I think that it was Calvert Watkins who characterized philology as "slow
> reading."  Well, perhaps it will be accepted that my tardy responses to
> recent list discussions are at least partially attributable to philological
> concerns of the sort that Watkins had in mind, and not just to laziness or
> irresponsibility.  Indeed, I am a very slow reader, in any case.
>
> I sincerely apologize to Jean-Luc Chevillard for forgetting to respond to his
> interesting question.  If it were not an interesting question I would have
> answered promptly with some kind of generically 'correct' answer.
> Fortunately, Madhav Deshpande and Peter Scharf have come to my rescue with
> their typically thorough and incisive posts, to which I have nothing to add.
> Of course, in Old Indo-Iranian there is no evidence for the technical
> phonological sense for ghoSa that one starts to see first, I suppose [Madhav?
> Peter?], in the prAtizAkhyas.
>
> Perhaps I can make a seamless segue here to the topic of Iranians in ancient
> India, etc.
>
> The word ghoSa in Skt./gaoSa in Avestan [and the associated verbal forms] is
> an Indo-Iranian isolate which must be supposed to be borrowed from a Central
> Asian substrate language [see the recent article on such words by A.
> Lubotsky].  Rgvedic attestations suggest that ghoSa can cover human speech
> and animal vocalizations as well.  It also covers the sound of thunder, soma
> stones, chariots, the stamping of the feet in dance, as well as the obscure
> articulations of the gods.  But in fact it also has the sense 'ear', as is
> shown by Avestan gaoSa, as well as Skt. compounds like azvaghoSa.  I have in
> preparation a paper on "The Language of *daEuuas*", which basically asserts
> that that language was Vedic; that is, that there was some measure of mutual
> knowledge between speakers of Avestan and speakers of Vedic, in the old days
> after the linguistic divide . Those people referred to in the RV as *a'deva*
> or *devani'd* were in some cases Iranians, and Mazdayasnians.  Likewise whose
> people who were known in Avestan as *daevayasna* were in some cases Vedic.
> The evidence for this needs to be sorted out, and I intend to correlate this
> with Lubotsky's proposal for a Central Asian substratum.
>
> The well-known motif that one finds in Late Avestan that distinguishes
> between an Ahuric lexicon [with positive connotations] and a Daevic lexicon
> [with negative connotations] seems to correlate, at times, with the lexicon
> of words derivable from the substrate language proposed by Lubotsky.  Since
> we've been talking about ears, let us consider these ear-words:
>
> The Ahuric word 'uS-' has many IE cognates, including Eng. 'ear', Grk 'ous',
> Lat. 'auris', etc.  But no Sanskrit cognate.
>
> The Daevic word kar at na on the other hand does have a Skt cognate 'karNa', but
> it lacks a sure IE etymology.  It appears in Lubotsky's list of inherited
> words
>
> Then there's gaoSa [= Vedic ghoSa], referring mostly to Ahuric ears, except
> for kauruuO-gaoSa "bald-eared" of the god of drought, ApaoSa.   Lacking a
> good IE etymology, it appears in Lubotsky's list of words borrowed from this
> substrate language
>
> Furthermore, there is the insight that can be gotten from the study of
> onomastics.  When we consider the many  contributions of Michael Witzel to
> these questions, we must acknowledge that he has led the way into the study
> of Vedic onomastics, in the footsteps of his teachers K. Hoffmann and F.B.J.
> Kuiper.  These are the proper inflluences, strictly philological, on him,
> instead of the bizarrely uninformed suggestions of Sumit Guha that he has
> been influenced by some Jungian Aryanism.  Besides Witzel's many articles and
> those of Hoffmann, the monographs on Iranian onomastics by M. Mayrhofer and
> R. Schmitt should be consulted.  Some onomastic examples: tuSAspa in Indic
> can only be an Iranian name, because the final member -aspa, 'horse' can only
> be Iranian.  Likewise, the Iranian name dAztAgni must be an Indic name
> because the final member -agni, can only be Indic.
>
> In conclusion, the point is this: in conjunction with the archaeological
> researches of F. Hiebert, C.C. Lamberg-Karlovsky, et al., the philological
> work of M. Witzel, et al, reveals the outlines of an extraordinarily rich
> exchange of several cultures of early Central and South Asia in early
> Indo-Iranian texts.  The crude distinctions of earlier generations must be
> abandoned. The careful distinctions of recent philology must be embraced.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George Thompson
>




From rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ  Tue Nov 26 08:14:40 2002
From: rbm49 at EXT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard Mahoney)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 21:14:40 +1300
Subject: CSX+ ... and GRETIL
In-Reply-To: <135B801286C@mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de>
Message-ID: <161227071784.23782.8574228270660092332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 07:49:18AM +0000, gruenendahl wrote:

[snip]

> ... I have no idea how many of you actually use CSX(+), but I have
> reason to assume that many know how to handle it, i.e., convert it
> to the encoding of choice.

Finding it hard to resist the temptation to give a link ...

 ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/programs/

John Smith's `README' is---as always---extremely informative.

For those with a fondness for things Unicode, `csxp2ur' is absolutely
essential ;-)


Regards,

 Richard Mahoney


--
Richard Mahoney    |  E-mail: rbm49 at ext.canterbury.ac.nz
78 Jeffreys Road   |          r.mahoney at comnet.net.nz
Fendalton          |  Telephone: 0064-3-351-5831
CHRISTCHURCH 8005  |  Cellular: 0064-25-829-986
NEW ZEALAND        |  http://homepages.comnet.co.nz/~r-mahoney




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Nov 27 21:50:35 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 02 16:50:35 -0500
Subject: Modern Sanskrit literature online audio
Message-ID: <161227071790.23782.13225200888105136635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Library of Congress has put recordings of modern Sanskrit literature
read by its authors freely available online as part of its South Asian
Literary Recordings Project, along with literature in many other South
Asian modern languages.  The project is described in the Scout Report
forwarded below.  The Sanskrit authors recorded are Rewa Prasad Dwivedi,
Ram Karan Sharma, and Rama Kant Shukla.

Allen Thrasher




>From The Scout Report, Copyright Internet Scout Project 1994-2002.
http://scout.wisc.edu/


15. The South Asian Literary Recordings Project [Real Audio]
http://www.loc.gov/acq/ovop/delhi/salrp/

Undertaken by the Library of Congress' New Delhi Office, this impressive
project was designed to create an audio archive of South Asian authors
reading their own work in the original language of its publication. The
project began in earnest during April 2000, and by September 2002 (when
this
site was launched), eighty authors had been recorded. The site features
readings in 22 different languages, including Hindi, Bengali, Sindhi,
Gujarati, Nepali, and English. The authors reading in English include
some
of the most prolific and accomplished South Asian authors of the last
century. Those featured readings on the site include Keki N. Daruwalla,
Anne
Ranasinghe, and Mulk Raj Anand, whose career has spanned over
seventy-five
years. Additionally, a brief profile of each author is included with
their
representative audio recordings. Persons interested in learning more
about
South Asia's vast and prodigious literary tradition in the 20th century
will
find this site a valuable resource. [KMG]



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
Senior Reference Librarian
Southern Asia Section
Asian Division
Library of Congress
Jefferson Building 150
101 Independence Ave., S.E.
Washington, DC 20540-4810
tel. 202-707-3732
fax 202-707-1724
athr at loc.gov
The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library
of Congress.