From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Feb  1 01:23:49 2002
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 02 17:23:49 -0800
Subject: Any suggestions - 2
In-Reply-To: <4888818.3221473713@pm593-21.dialip.mich.net>
Message-ID: <161227070375.23782.8568594113305755399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It's also important to determine which sort of Tamil Brahmins are concerned
-- Smarta Brahmins (Iyers)?  Vaisnava Brahmins (Iyengars)?  There is also at
least one smaller category -- Sivacaryas, who are proper Saiva Brahmins.
Even within Tamil Nadu, these groups do not respect one another.  And within
the Vaisnava Brahmins, the VaTakalai group considers the Tenkalai's
converted Sudras, while the Tenkalais think the VaTakalai must have some
Portuguese blood to be so light-skinned.  There are 18 major points of
difference between the VaTakalai's and Tenkalais.   Among the Smartas, there
are also several divisions, and certainly there has never been any love lost
between Iyers and Iyengars.  I'm not sure either group even considers
Sivacaryas Brahmins.  It's even more interesting to delve into the relations
between different non-Brahmin castes (and within the castes).  George Hart

On 1/31/02 10:48 AM, "Madhav Deshpande" <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> wrote:

> In the 17th-18th century text Vedavicaara that I am editing and
> translating, there is an interesting line explaining why the draaviDa
> brahmans of the south do not have any interaction/co-participation with the
> gurjara brahmans, though the gurjaras are technically considered to be
> draaviDas.  The text says:
>
> gau.dadezavad gurjaradeze 'py anaacaarabaahulyaat te.saam
> aacaaryazaapa-dagdhatvaat keraladeziiyabraahma.naadivat
> samvyavahaaraabhaava.h
>
> Like the the GauDa region, there is profusion of misbehavior (anaacaara)
> even in the Gurjara region, and hence, by being cursed by the aacaarya
> (who?), there is no dealing with them, as there is no dealing (for similar
> reasons) with brahmans from Kerala etc.
>
> I wonder if anyone has come across this story of some aacaarya cursing the
> brahmans of Kerala and Gurjara regions for their supposed misbehavior?  I
> suppose the anaacaara in Kerala refers to the relations of brahmans with
> nayar women.  What sort of anaacaara is alleged for the Gurjara brahmans?
>
>                                       Madhav Deshpande
>




From Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI  Fri Feb  1 08:17:35 2002
From: Asko.Parpola at HELSINKI.FI (Asko Parpola)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 02 10:17:35 +0200
Subject: Anaacaaras of the Kerala Brahmins
Message-ID: <161227070378.23782.17340903038498028287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Madhav, 

        There are several -- only partly overlapping -- lists of the 64
anaacaaras of the Kerala Brahmins, the oldest and best known being
included in the S'?nkara-Smrti. My wife has focused on these rules and
studied how far they still apply in Kerala, and I have edited and
translated the original text of this passage of the S'?nkara-Smrti and
its Malayalam commentary in the appendices of her book:

Parpola, Marjatta, 2000.  Kerala Brahmins in Transition: A Study of a
Namp?tiri Family. (Studia Orientalia, 91.) Helsinki: The Finnish
Oriental Society. xii, 436 pp., 55 ill., bibl., index. Pb 34 Euro. ISBN
951-9380-48-5. 

The cheapest and quickest way to get the book is to order it directly
from the distributor, the bookshop of all learned societies in Finland:

Tiedekirja
Kirkkokatu 14
FIN-00170 Helsinki
Finland

tel. +358-9-635177
fax +358-9-635017
e-mail: tiedekirja at tsv.fi

The preferred mode of payment is by credit card; if you are faxing the
credit card number, please give also the cvv or cvc code, i.e. the
3-digit number shown on the signature side of the card.  If the payment
is made by cheque, the rather high costs of cashing the cheque have to
be added.

With best regards,  Yours,  Asko





Madhav Deshpande wrote:
> 
> In the 17th-18th century text Vedavicaara that I am editing and
> translating, there is an interesting line explaining why the draaviDa
> brahmans of the south do not have any interaction/co-participation with the
> gurjara brahmans, though the gurjaras are technically considered to be
> draaviDas.  The text says:
> 
> gau.dadezavad gurjaradeze 'py anaacaarabaahulyaat te.saam
> aacaaryazaapa-dagdhatvaat keraladeziiyabraahma.naadivat
> samvyavahaaraabhaava.h
> 
> Like the the GauDa region, there is profusion of misbehavior (anaacaara)
> even in the Gurjara region, and hence, by being cursed by the aacaarya
> (who?), there is no dealing with them, as there is no dealing (for similar
> reasons) with brahmans from Kerala etc.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has come across this story of some aacaarya cursing the
> brahmans of Kerala and Gurjara regions for their supposed misbehavior?  I
> suppose the anaacaara in Kerala refers to the relations of brahmans with
> nayar women.  What sort of anaacaara is alleged for the Gurjara brahmans?
> 
>                                         Madhav Deshpande




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Feb  1 21:54:29 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 02 13:54:29 -0800
Subject: Gnoli Felicitation Volume (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227070380.23782.15986316956930107219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:48:49 +0200
From: raffaele torella <torella at uniroma1.it>
To: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK
Subject: Gnoli Felicitation Volume

Dear Dominik,
I should like to inform the members of Indology that the volume in
honour of Raniero Gnoli that I have edited has just come out. Many
members of the list are among the contributors.

Thank you very much!

Yours,
Raffaele
-- 
Prof. Raffaele Torella
Chair of Sanskrit
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali
Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza'
fax +39 06 4451209

------------------------------------------------------------------------
IsIAO
ISTITUTO ITALIANO PER L'AFRICA E L'ORIENTE
SERIE ORIENTALE ROMA

LE PAROLE E I MARMI
Studi in onore di Raniero Gnoli nel suo 70? compleanno

A cura di RAFFAELE TORELLA

con la collaborazione di Claudio Cicuzza, Marino Faliero, Bruno Lo Turco,
Francesco Sferra, Vincenzo Vergiani

e la partecipazione di Alvar Gonz?lez-Palacios

SOR XCII, 1/2, Roma 2001, due volumi indivisibili, 1010 pagine, EUR 165,00


Distribuito da Herder, International Book centre,
120, Piazza Montecitorio, 00186 Roma, Italy.

In Italia da Libreria Distributrice Degrassi,
61/a, Via Fonteiana, 00152 Roma.

In India, Bangladesh, Nepal e Sri Lanka da Munshiram Manoharlal,
Publishers (P) Ltd., Post Box 5715 54, Rani Jhansi Road, New Delhi 110055.




Indice generale

Magistro eidemque fratri d. (Gh. Gnoli)
Prologo (R. Torella)
Bibliografia selezionata di Raniero Gnoli

Le parole

Bakker, Hans: The Archaeological Site of Mansar. An Iconological Approach
to Indian History: an Example

Baldissera, Fabrizia: The Satire of Tantric Figures in Some Works of
Ksemendra

Bansat-Boudon, Lyne: ?Nandyante sutradharah?, Contribution d'Abhinavagupta
? la question de la b?n?diction liminaire dans le th??tre

Bhattacharya, Kamaleshwar: Laksana, Laksana, and Apophaticism in Sankara's
Commentary on Taittiriyopanisad II, 1

Boccali, Giuliano: L'immagine dei monti fra itihasa e kavya

Bongard-Levin, Gregory M.: Brahman Canakya in the Graeco-Roman Tradition

Bouy, Christian & Filliozat, Pierre-Sylvain: L'Amrtanadopanisad selon
Sankarananda, Dara Sukoh et Anquetil Duperron

Bronkhorst, Johannes: Mimamsa Versus Vaisesika. Parthasarathi and Kumarila
on the Creation and Dissolution of the World

Brunner, H?l?ne: Mantras et mantras dans les Tantras Siva?tes

Cicuzza, Claudio: Il capitolo XXX del Samvarodayatantra

De Jong, Jan Willem: Buddha's First Meditation in the Lalitavistara

De Rossi Filibeck, Elena: Due fogli manoscritti da Tabo conservati nel
Fondo Tucci

Dvivedi, Vraj Vallabh: Tantresu vaidikakarmakandasya prabhavah

Forte, Antonino: The Five Kings of India and the King of Kucha who
according to the Chinese Sources went to Luoyang in 692

Franco, Eli: Dharmakirti's Reductionism in Religion and Logic

Funayama, Toru: On the date of Vinitadeva

Goodall, Dominic: The Saiddhantika Parakhyatantra, its Account of
Language, and the Interpolation of the Eighth Chapter of the Published
Pauskaragama

Granoff, Phyllis: Art and Religious Doctrine: Some Comments on the Hidden
and Secret in Medieval Indian Religious Tradition

Gr?nbold, G?nther: "Saptavara". A Dharani Collection from Nepal

Hahn, Michael: Text-Critical Remarks on Aryasura's Mahisa- and
Satapattrajataka (Studies in Aryasura's Jatakamala. III)

Hanneder, J?rgen: Sahib Kaul's Presentation of Pratyabhijna Philosophy in
his Devinamavilasa

Hara, Minoru: Hindu Concepts of Anger: manyu and krodha

Hattori, Masaaki: The Problem of Grammatical Gender in the apoha Theory

Isaacson, Harunaga: Ratnakarasanti's Hevajrasahajasadyoga (Studies in
Ratnakarasanti's Tantric works I)

Krasser, Helmut: On the Dates and Works of Sankaranandana

Jambuvijaya, Muni: Anuyogadvarasutravivaranesu granthantarebhya uddhrtah
katicana

Lo Turco, Bruno: Moksopaya III.25

Maggi, Mauro: Three Indian Loanwords in Khotanese

Orofino, Giacomella: Notes on the Early Phases of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism

Padoux, Andr?: Sambapancasika. Les cinquante strophes de Samba [? la
gloire du soleil]

Pellegrini Sannino, Agata: A proposito del Buddha e della sua
"illuminazione"

Pensa, Corrado: Osservazioni circa l'investigazione meditativa (Satipanna)
nell'opera di Achan Maha Boowa

Piano, Stefano: A proposito del Kaccit-Prasna sul Raja-Dharma: appunti per
un'edizione critica

Piantelli, Mario: Riletture "spiritualizzate" degli anga dello Yoga
classico

Pingree, David: Ravikas in Indian Astronomy and the Kalacakra

Radicchi, Anna: Rileggendo Natyasastra VI-VII

Scherrer-Schaub, Cristina A.: Contre le libertinage. Un opuscule de Tabo
adress? aux tantristes h?r?tiques?

Seyfort Ruegg, David : A note on the Relationship between Buddhist and
'Hindu' Divinities in Buddhist Literature and Iconology: the
laukika/lokottara Contrast and the Notion of an Indian 'Religious
Substratum'

Sferra, Francesco: La Tantravatadhanika di Abhinavagupta

Slaje, Walter: Observations on the Making of the Yogavasistha (caitta,
nanartha and vah)

Snellgrove, David: The Relationship of Buddhism to the Royal Brahmanical
Cult in the Khmer Empire

Steinkellner, Ernst: Is the Ultimate Cognition of the Yogin Conceptual or
Non-conceptual? Part 1: A Critical Edition of the Tantristic Tattvasiddhi,
Final Section

Torella, Raffaele: The Word in Abhinavagupta's Brhad-Vimarsini

Torricelli, Fabrizio: Zhang Lo-Tsa-Ba's Introduction to the Aural
Transmission of Samvara

Wezler, Albrecht: On Vallabhadeva's Characterization of the Meghaduta as a
'kelikavya'


I marmi

Introduzione (A. Gonz?lez-Palacios)

Del Bufalo, Dario: Il granito della Colonna

Giuliano, Antonio: Manda en Costentinnoble et en Alixandre pour Homes Grex
et Sarazins

Gonz?lez-Palacios, Alvar: Le origini della Tarsia in marmi colorati: quel
che si sa e qualcosa che non si sa

Heikamp, Detlef: Zum Herkules und Kakus von Baccio Bandinelli

Elenco degli autori




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Feb  2 01:16:50 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 02 17:16:50 -0800
Subject: Inclusion in new Portal website (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227070382.23782.6259696453635281286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nice to know the INDOLOGY website is attracting high-profile attention
like this.  This also draws attention to the field of Indology itself, at
a national level in the UK, at least to some extent.

D

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:51:40 -0000
From: Nick Walford <n.walford at britac.ac.uk
To: "'d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk'"
<d.wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk
Subject: Inclusion in new Portal website

Dear Resource Owner

The British Academy, the United Kingdom's's
national Academy for the
Humanities and Social Sciences, is developing a
web site, PORTAL, which
is a directory designed as an entry point to
academic resources available
online for researchers working in higher
education.

Your resource:

INDOLOGY: Internet Resources for Indological
Scholarship

located at:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html

has been selected for inclusion in this
directory, and a link has been set
up to your site. Each directory entry gives the
title of the resource, its
URL, a number of
keywords and a brief description. I append for
your information copies
of the policy statement on the choice of sites
for the directory and
its copyright and disclaimer notices.

Entries also include some basic cataloguing
information. We hope that
appearing in our directory is acceptable. If it
is, and to ensure that the
cataloguing information is accurate, could you
please confirm that your
resource is hosted by:

University College, London.

If you would prefer that your resource is not
cited in PORTAL, please
let me know and we will not include it.

Responses can be sent by replying to this
email, or by post to:
The British Academy
10 Carlton House Terrace
London
SW1Y 5AH
England

Yours,
Abigail Cooke
Web Content Manager
The British Academy


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------
Enclosures:

1. PORTAL Collection Policy

Selection of sites for the PORTAL Directory is
based on the following
general guidelines:

Resources:

The resources at the site are within the
general area of the Humanities and
Social Sciences.
The resources are appropriate for research in
higher education or similar
scholarly contexts.
The resources can be:
primary resources e.g. electronic texts, image
archives, bibliographies;
secondary guides to primary resources, e.g.
collections of site pointers,
lists of specialised archives;
general reference data e.g. encyclopedias,
library directories.

Sites:

The site has substantive content, i.e. has a
large resource or range of
resources e.g. holdings of text or data, not
just an individual student's
bibliography.
The site has long-term content, i.e. has
material of continuing interest
e.g. excavation catalogues, not just a
particular conference programme.
The site shows that it aims to meet normal
research and scholarly practice
in choosing and making public its materials.
The site clearly declares who is responsible
for it.
The site content is actively maintained.
The site has proper functionality i.e. active
links, working tools etc.
The site offers free use, i.e. there is no
subscription charge, though users
may be required to register.

The Academy reserves the right to remove a site
reference at any time.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------

2. PORTAL Copyright Statement:

(c) Copyright in all PORTAL pages is held by
The British Academy, 2001.

Links may be made to the PORTAL site, and to
individual PORTAL pages. PORTAL
pages may be copied for individual use, and for
educational use. They may
not be copied and distributed for financial
gain; and they may not be
included in further collections or compilations
without permission from the
Academy.

In using resource sites to which the PORTAL
Directory refers, please check
copyright policies declared on the sites
themselves.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------

3. PORTAL Disclaimer:
We are grateful to all those who have agreed to
our including an entry for
their resource site in the PORTAL Directory.
The Directory pages have been
made in good faith, applying the PORTAL Policy
criteria for Resources and
Sites to include. However the PORTAL pages are
derived from, and contains
pointers to, external pages which are not
controlled by the British Academy.
The Academy does not accept any responsibility
for the accuracy of these
external pages' content, or liability for the
consequences of using the
information contained in the external pages.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Feb  2 04:23:23 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 02 20:23:23 -0800
Subject: Peter Skilling Numata Lectures at Oxford (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227070385.23782.8780528752657357456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:58:29 +0000
From: Ulrich Pagel <up1 at soas.ac.uk>

Illusion, Conversion, Emptiness, Protection:
Reflections on the Mahasutras of the Mulasarvastivadins


All lectures are on Mondays at 5.00 in the Oriental Institute


Numata Lectures by Peter Skilling


1. The M?lasarv?stiv?dins: Who, what, where, and when?


2. The Mah?s?tras: An Introduction


3. Metaphors of Illusion: The M?y?j?la-s?tra


February 5
4. A King Converts: The Bimbis?rapratyudgama-s?tra


February 11
5. Emptying the Mind: The ??nyat? S?tras


February 18
6.  The Power of the Buddha: The Dhvaj?gra and Vai??l?prave?a S?tra


February 25
7. Alliance with the Divine: Mah?sam?ja and ???n??iya S?tras

-- 




From Slaje at T-ONLINE.DE  Sat Feb  2 12:51:01 2002
From: Slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 02 13:51:01 +0100
Subject: Gnoli Felicitation Volume (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227070387.23782.10113964837372267075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Raffaele,

I have just seen your announcement of the Gnoli Fel. Vol. Before possibly
placing an order it, would be helpful for me to know whether the contributors
will receive a copy of the book, or an offprint of their articles, or both, or
neither of them?

Second, since there is only one month left for me before my departure from here:
how many units exactly do you expect me to teach? Should I teach a class and if,
on what level? Or give one / several lectures? Or would it be more advisable -
in view of our Mokospaya (-Tika) cooperation, to read selected passages from
Bhaskara?s commentary - as I once suggested it already to Bruno?


Awaiting your instructions,


Yours,

as always,

Walter



------------------------------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-Loens-Str. 1, D-99425 Weimar (Germany)
Tel/Fax: (+49)03643-501391 (office: (+49)0345-55-23650)
e-mail: slaje at t-online.de (office: slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de)




From Slaje at T-ONLINE.DE  Sat Feb  2 13:01:19 2002
From: Slaje at T-ONLINE.DE (Walter Slaje)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 02 14:01:19 +0100
Subject: Gnoli Felicitation Volume (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227070390.23782.14443508848506608672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Mortified for having erroneously posted all of the INDOLOGY members a personal
message intended for R. Torella!


Walter SLAJE

------------------------------------------------
Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje
Hermann-Loens-Str. 1, D-99425 Weimar (Germany)
Tel/Fax: (+49)03643-501391 (office: (+49)0345-55-23650)
e-mail: slaje at t-online.de (office: slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de)




From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Mon Feb  4 15:37:50 2002
From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 02 07:37:50 -0800
Subject: e-mail of Jitendra B. Shah
In-Reply-To: <E16Xk0G-00045q-00@listserv2.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070395.23782.10291410238152431583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Jitendra Shah" <<sambodhi at ad1.vsnl.net.in>



>Does anybody have an e-mail address for Dr. Jitendra B. Shah, director
of

>the L.D. Institute of Indology in Ahmedabad?

>

>Thank you.
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From ev.declercq at RUG.AC.BE  Mon Feb  4 14:21:52 2002
From: ev.declercq at RUG.AC.BE (Eva De Clercq)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 02 14:21:52 +0000
Subject: e-mail of Jitendra B. Shah
Message-ID: <161227070392.23782.9653130786723913871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anybody have an e-mail address for Dr. Jitendra B. Shah, director of
the L.D. Institute of Indology in Ahmedabad?

Thank you.




From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK  Tue Feb  5 11:34:20 2002
From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 12:34:20 +0100
Subject: Ruefully accepting the strengthening  of police.
Message-ID: <161227070401.23782.7654872081353898781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nice rhyme but the composition is somehow missing the meter and rythm of
good old Sanskrit poetry.

Perhaps you better write us in Sanskrit or any other classical Indian
language, as this is a list for academic discussion on indology only.

Sincerely,
Ulrich Kragh
University of Copenhagen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Bowles" <a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: Ruefully accepting the strengthening of police.


> I tap this out now at dawn,
> as radio-music switches on;
> through the house the solo cello Swan
> of old Saint-Saens
> glides, its once assuaging
> beauty now forlorn.
>
>                                                 November 2001
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> PAGE
>
>
> PAGE  3
>




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Tue Feb  5 21:31:54 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 14:31:54 -0700
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
Message-ID: <161227070407.23782.12831365841134294535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"...the faults of the eye organ are defined as the eye's attachment to
forms. The eye runs after the forms in the external world.....

The Katha Upanisad says, "The self existent  pierced   the senses
outward and so one looks outward and not within oneself. However a wise
man, seeking immortality and turning his eyes inward, sees the inner Self"
(paranci khani vyatrnat svayambhustasmat  paran pasyati
nantaratman.kascitdhirahpratyagatmanamaiksadavrttacaksuramrtatvamicchan)."

Is there anything in this verse which equates which the exposition above the
quotation about the "faults of the eye organ"?

I recently found this on some website and ask the list folks if they would
kindly tell me chapter and verse from the Katha Up. which I don't have--they
might have it at the local state U library, but if someone here knows this
one, it probably would save me a parking ticket on that campus :-)

Thanks for any help with this. Joanna Kirkpatrick




From jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Feb  5 23:25:15 2002
From: jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Frits Staal)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 15:25:15 -0800
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
In-Reply-To: <036e01c1ae8c$88579460$2930cece@JKIRK>
Message-ID: <161227070410.23782.6100610686589755116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The verse is the first of Valli 4. The first half is a general statement
but the second uses kascit and aiksat so refers to a past event affecting a
particular person (i.e., Naciketas); but I cannot answer your other question.

At 02:31 PM 2/5/02 -0700, you wrote:
>"...the faults of the eye organ are defined as the eye's attachment to
>forms. The eye runs after the forms in the external world.....
>
>The Katha Upanisad says, "The self existent  pierced   the senses
>outward and so one looks outward and not within oneself. However a wise
>man, seeking immortality and turning his eyes inward, sees the inner Self"
>(paranci khani vyatrnat svayambhustasmat  paran pasyati
>nantaratman.kascitdhirahpratyagatmanamaiksadavrttacaksuramrtatvamicchan)."
>
>Is there anything in this verse which equates which the exposition above the
>quotation about the "faults of the eye organ"?
>
>I recently found this on some website and ask the list folks if they would
>kindly tell me chapter and verse from the Katha Up. which I don't have--they
>might have it at the local state U library, but if someone here knows this
>one, it probably would save me a parking ticket on that campus :-)
>
>Thanks for any help with this. Joanna Kirkpatrick
>
Frits Staal

http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Wed Feb  6 01:44:49 2002
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 19:44:49 -0600
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
In-Reply-To: <036e01c1ae8c$88579460$2930cece@JKIRK>
Message-ID: <161227070412.23782.9042238711418631899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The quote is from Katha Upanishad 4.1 -- see also Aitareya Upanishad
1.1-3. About the connection with the quotation regarding the eye's
attachment, I am not sure.

Patrick



>"...the faults of the eye organ are defined as the eye's attachment to
>forms. The eye runs after the forms in the external world.....
>
>The Katha Upanisad says, "The self existent  pierced   the senses
>outward and so one looks outward and not within oneself. However a wise
>man, seeking immortality and turning his eyes inward, sees the inner Self"
>(paranci khani vyatrnat svayambhustasmat  paran pasyati
>nantaratman.kascitdhirahpratyagatmanamaiksadavrttacaksuramrtatvamicchan)."
>
>Is there anything in this verse which equates which the exposition above the
>quotation about the "faults of the eye organ"?
>
>I recently found this on some website and ask the list folks if they would
>kindly tell me chapter and verse from the Katha Up. which I don't have--they
>might have it at the local state U library, but if someone here knows this
>one, it probably would save me a parking ticket on that campus :-)
>
>Thanks for any help with this. Joanna Kirkpatrick




From a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Tue Feb  5 11:02:54 2002
From: a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Adam Bowles)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 22:02:54 +1100
Subject: Ruefully accepting the strengthening  of police.
Message-ID: <161227070398.23782.16808542140227811399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I tap this out now at dawn,
as radio-music switches on;
through the house the solo cello Swan
of old Saint-Saens
glides, its once assuaging
beauty now forlorn.

                                                November 2001







PAGE


PAGE  3




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Wed Feb  6 05:34:32 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 22:34:32 -0700
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
Message-ID: <161227070415.23782.3744192442411472605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks--

I also inquired on another list about a citation in a Buddhist sutra. The
only reply so far cites the Threefold Lotus Sutra, and as I understand, that
did not originate in India.  Can you tell me if I'm correct here or not?  I
am looking only for indigenous Indian sources of this concept or figure.

Joanna
==============
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Olivelle" <jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad


> The quote is from Katha Upanishad 4.1 -- see also Aitareya Upanishad
> 1.1-3. About the connection with the quotation regarding the eye's
> attachment, I am not sure.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> >"...the faults of the eye organ are defined as the eye's attachment to
> >forms. The eye runs after the forms in the external world.....
> >
> >The Katha Upanisad says, "The self existent  pierced   the senses
> >outward and so one looks outward and not within oneself. However a wise
> >man, seeking immortality and turning his eyes inward, sees the inner
Self"
> >(paranci khani vyatrnat svayambhustasmat  paran pasyati
>
>nantaratman.kascitdhirahpratyagatmanamaiksadavrttacaksuramrtatvamicchan)."
> >
> >Is there anything in this verse which equates which the exposition above
the
> >quotation about the "faults of the eye organ"?
> >
> >I recently found this on some website and ask the list folks if they
would
> >kindly tell me chapter and verse from the Katha Up. which I don't
have--they
> >might have it at the local state U library, but if someone here knows
this
> >one, it probably would save me a parking ticket on that campus :-)
> >
> >Thanks for any help with this. Joanna Kirkpatrick
>
>




From a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Tue Feb  5 11:55:30 2002
From: a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Adam Bowles)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 02 22:55:30 +1100
Subject: Ruefully accepting the strengthening  of police.
Message-ID: <161227070404.23782.11181352057242304968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For reasons I do not fully understand, I must apologise to the list.  I did
not send this 'poem' to which Ulrich Kragh has replied.  It is quite
possible that a virus has infected my mailing list.

Once again, I apologise.

Adam Bowles

-----Original Message-----
From: Ulrich T. Kragh <utkragh at HUM.KU.DK>
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 5 February 2002 10:36
Subject: Re: Ruefully accepting the strengthening of police.


>Nice rhyme but the composition is somehow missing the meter and rythm of
>good old Sanskrit poetry.
>
>Perhaps you better write us in Sanskrit or any other classical Indian
>language, as this is a list for academic discussion on indology only.
>
>Sincerely,
>Ulrich Kragh
>University of Copenhagen
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Adam Bowles" <a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU>
>To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:02 PM
>Subject: Ruefully accepting the strengthening of police.
>
>
>> I tap this out now at dawn,
>> as radio-music switches on;
>> through the house the solo cello Swan
>> of old Saint-Saens
>> glides, its once assuaging
>> beauty now forlorn.
>>
>>                                                 November 2001
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PAGE
>>
>>
>> PAGE  3
>>
>




From jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Feb  6 18:15:59 2002
From: jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Frits Staal)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 10:15:59 -0800
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
In-Reply-To: <003b01c1af36$4eab0490$2930cece@JKIRK>
Message-ID: <161227070422.23782.1169321455377341249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Better look at Leon Hurvitz' translation 1976 reprinted in paper Columbia
Press.

At 10:47 AM 2/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Apologies to the list for my stupidity.   I had somehow got the erroneous
>idea that this sutra was written much later in E Asia.  The internet never
>fails to amaze--i just found this URL containing Burton Watson's edition of
>the LS and am proceeding to study it.
>http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/
>
>joanna K
>====================
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tenzin Bob Thurman" <tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU>
>To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 9:23 AM
>Subject: Re: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
>
>
>> Hi Joanna,
>> The Lotus Sutra, with its associated texts, most certainly originated in
>> India, as well as the figure of Avalokiteshvara, who certainly is
>> involved with "gazing!"
>> Bob Thurman
>>
>>
>
Frits Staal

http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Wed Feb  6 17:47:11 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 10:47:11 -0700
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
Message-ID: <161227070420.23782.4095725728352926050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Apologies to the list for my stupidity.   I had somehow got the erroneous
idea that this sutra was written much later in E Asia.  The internet never
fails to amaze--i just found this URL containing Burton Watson's edition of
the LS and am proceeding to study it.
http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/

joanna K
====================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tenzin Bob Thurman" <tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad


> Hi Joanna,
> The Lotus Sutra, with its associated texts, most certainly originated in
> India, as well as the figure of Avalokiteshvara, who certainly is
> involved with "gazing!"
> Bob Thurman
>
>




From tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Wed Feb  6 16:23:04 2002
From: tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Tenzin Bob Thurman)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 11:23:04 -0500
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
Message-ID: <161227070418.23782.1522564434885881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi Joanna,
The Lotus Sutra, with its associated texts, most certainly originated in
India, as well as the figure of Avalokiteshvara, who certainly is
involved with "gazing!"
Bob Thurman




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Wed Feb  6 19:15:41 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 12:15:41 -0700
Subject: eye (gaze)
Message-ID: <161227070424.23782.17214292508576826873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all for help.

Internet results :

Found quotation on the eye organ in Meditation Sutra here

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/the_sutra_of_meditation_on_the_bodhisattv
a_universal_virtue.htm

Got more educated about the Lotus sutra here
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/lotus.html

Cheers
Joanna Kirkpatrick




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Wed Feb  6 19:17:03 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 12:17:03 -0700
Subject: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
Message-ID: <161227070427.23782.7967120494665642703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Will do--thanks--J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frits Staal" <jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad


> Better look at Leon Hurvitz' translation 1976 reprinted in paper Columbia
> Press.
>
> At 10:47 AM 2/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Apologies to the list for my stupidity.   I had somehow got the erroneous
> >idea that this sutra was written much later in E Asia.  The internet
never
> >fails to amaze--i just found this URL containing Burton Watson's edition
of
> >the LS and am proceeding to study it.
> >http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Buddhism/LotusSutra/
> >
> >joanna K
> >====================
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tenzin Bob Thurman" <tbt7 at COLUMBIA.EDU>
> >To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 9:23 AM
> >Subject: Re: eye (gaze) in the Katha Upanishad
> >
> >
> >> Hi Joanna,
> >> The Lotus Sutra, with its associated texts, most certainly originated
in
> >> India, as well as the figure of Avalokiteshvara, who certainly is
> >> involved with "gazing!"
> >> Bob Thurman
> >>
> >>
> >
> Frits Staal
>
> http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal
>
>




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Feb  7 01:45:00 2002
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 19:45:00 -0600
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.43.0202011352020.804-100000@Anat-lws119.anat.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070429.23782.11189246438974981971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends:

I have a question about a reading in Manu 11.58 (or 57 in some
editions). All editions read the paada-a as: retaHsekaH svayoniiSu.
This is, of course, the grammatically correct reading. But most of my
manuscripts -- especially the important southern manuscripts in
Grantha, Telugu, and Malayalam scripts -- read svayonyaasu [sometimes
svayonaasu]. Can you account for the form -yonyaasu? Have you seen it
elsewhere? It is not recorded in the dictionaries. Thanks for your
help.

Patrick Olivelle




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Feb  7 02:41:21 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 21:41:21 -0500
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <p05010423b8878b39a405@[216.62.200.30]>
Message-ID: <161227070432.23782.12827600766825069359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The only possibility that comes to my mind is that svayonyaasu somehow
represents something like the base svayonya, fem svayonyaa, loc
svayonyaasu.  I have not seen it, but may be similar to jaatya from jaati.
Best,

                                        Madhav

--On Wednesday, February 6, 2002 7:45 PM -0600 Patrick Olivelle
<jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU> wrote:

> Friends:
>
> I have a question about a reading in Manu 11.58 (or 57 in some
> editions). All editions read the paada-a as: retaHsekaH svayoniiSu.
> This is, of course, the grammatically correct reading. But most of my
> manuscripts -- especially the important southern manuscripts in
> Grantha, Telugu, and Malayalam scripts -- read svayonyaasu [sometimes
> svayonaasu]. Can you account for the form -yonyaasu? Have you seen it
> elsewhere? It is not recorded in the dictionaries. Thanks for your
> help.
>
> Patrick Olivelle




From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Thu Feb  7 06:48:33 2002
From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 02 22:48:33 -0800
Subject: Query: yonya
In-Reply-To: <p05010423b8878b39a405@[216.62.200.30]>
Message-ID: <161227070434.23782.4085746032930595455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See Vishva Bandhu's Vaidika-padaanukrama-ko;sa, Sa,mhitaa section, vol. 4,
p. 2616, for the occurrence of yonya in .Rgveda 8.45.30 and explanation
according to Paa.nini 5.3.103 (;saakhaadibhyo yat).

ashok aklujkar

On 06-02-2002 17:45, "Patrick Olivelle" <jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU> wrote:

> Friends:
>
> I have a question about a reading in Manu 11.58 (or 57 in some
> editions). All editions read the paada-a as: retaHsekaH svayoniiSu.
> This is, of course, the grammatically correct reading. But most of my
> manuscripts -- especially the important southern manuscripts in
> Grantha, Telugu, and Malayalam scripts -- read svayonyaasu [sometimes
> svayonaasu]. Can you account for the form -yonyaasu? Have you seen it
> elsewhere? It is not recorded in the dictionaries. Thanks for your
> help.
>
> Patrick Olivelle




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  7 11:50:28 2002
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 03:50:28 -0800
Subject: (email)address V.S. Rajam
In-Reply-To: <B887633F.E48%aklujkar@interchange.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <161227070439.23782.15246680651630342886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,
does anyone know the whereabouts or preferably an
email address of V.S. Rajam (author of, among
other things, A Comparative Study of Two Ancient
Indian Grammatical Traditions, and 10 years later
-- I think it's the same person -- a Reference
Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry)?
Thanks, Jan Houben

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Feb  7 13:52:02 2002
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 07:52:02 -0600
Subject: Query: yonya
In-Reply-To: <B887633F.E48%aklujkar@interchange.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <161227070443.23782.8717389686627420648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks Madhav, Ashok and Georg for your insights. These are very helpful.

Patrick




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Feb  7 09:19:38 2002
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 10:19:38 +0100
Subject: Query
In-Reply-To: <p05010423b8878b39a405@[216.62.200.30]>
Message-ID: <161227070436.23782.11038364577227431115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

yonyA- may be a "hybrid" extension of the stem yonI; cf. Edgerton,
Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary 10.6: "... such stems are made to
end in -yA, keeping feminine gender; see Dict. s.vv. zriyA, striyA (=
zrI, strI); HiraNyavatI (-tyA); these may be Sanskritizations of
Middelindic forms."

G.v.Simson

>Friends:
>
>I have a question about a reading in Manu 11.58 (or 57 in some
>editions). All editions read the paada-a as: retaHsekaH svayoniiSu.
>This is, of course, the grammatically correct reading. But most of my
>manuscripts -- especially the important southern manuscripts in
>Grantha, Telugu, and Malayalam scripts -- read svayonyaasu [sometimes
>svayonaasu]. Can you account for the form -yonyaasu? Have you seen it
>elsewhere? It is not recorded in the dictionaries. Thanks for your
>help.
>
>Patrick Olivelle




From ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Feb  7 17:59:13 2002
From: ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Lawrence Mccrea)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 11:59:13 -0600
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
Message-ID: <161227070445.23782.10195213234279523554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        I would like to draw the attention of all interested parties to the
website for "Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism", a
collaborative research project exploring the structure and social
context of Sanskrit science and systematic knowledge from 1550 to 1750,
a period which winessed a rich flowering of Sanskrit scholarship in many
fields, yet ended in a radical diminution of Sanskrit's cultural power
with the coming of colonialism.  The project, funded by the National
Endowment for the Humanities and the National Science Foundation, is
organized and directed by Professor Sheldon Pollock of the University of
Chicago, and combines the researches of a dozen scholars from seven
countries. The project website is at
<http://dsal.uchicago.edu/sanskrit>.  The website contains the project
proposal, information on and working papers by project participants, and
will soon provide access to digital images of unpublished manuscripts
gathered in the course of the project, and to the database of Sanskrit
works and authors from the period which will be constructed as part of
the project.

Lawrence McCrea
Lecturer, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
University of Chicago




From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR  Thu Feb  7 12:10:01 2002
From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 13:10:01 +0100
Subject: (email)address V.S. Rajam
In-Reply-To: <20020207115028.5001.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227070441.23782.17160034073997857854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 03:50 07/02/02 -0800, Jan E.M. Houben wrote:
>Dear friends,
>does anyone know the whereabouts or preferably an
>email address of V.S. Rajam (author of, among
>other things, A Comparative Study of Two Ancient
>Indian Grammatical Traditions, and 10 years later
>-- I think it's the same person -- a Reference
>Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry)?

Very useful book!

I wish her thesis would be published.

>Thanks, Jan Houben

Her E-mail adress is:
<rajam at best.com>

Regards

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Feb  7 21:20:05 2002
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 13:20:05 -0800
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
In-Reply-To: <3C62C070.5E158415@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070447.23782.16428934062187152204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Might I humbly suggest that there is no such thing as a Sanskrit Knowledge
System, any more than there is an English Knowledge System or a Latin
Knowledge System.  Wouldn't it be more accurate to call it an Indic
Knowledge System or a South Asian Knowledge System?  There are tens (and
probably hundreds) of thousands of manuscripts on various aspects of
"knowledge" in many South Asian languages besides Sanskrit in the period
under consideration.  For the most part, these follow the same "system" as
the Sanskrit works.  George Hart

On 2/7/02 9:59 AM, "Lawrence Mccrea" <ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

>       I would like to draw the attention of all interested parties to the
> website for "Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism", a
> collaborative research project exploring the structure and social
> context of Sanskrit science and systematic knowledge from 1550 to 1750,
> a period which winessed a rich flowering of Sanskrit scholarship in many
> fields, yet ended in a radical diminution of Sanskrit's cultural power
> with the coming of colonialism.  The project, funded by the National
> Endowment for the Humanities and the National Science Foundation, is
> organized and directed by Professor Sheldon Pollock of the University of
> Chicago, and combines the researches of a dozen scholars from seven
> countries. The project website is at
> <http://dsal.uchicago.edu/sanskrit>.  The website contains the project
> proposal, information on and working papers by project participants, and
> will soon provide access to digital images of unpublished manuscripts
> gathered in the course of the project, and to the database of Sanskrit
> works and authors from the period which will be constructed as part of
> the project.
>
> Lawrence McCrea
> Lecturer, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
> University of Chicago
>




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Thu Feb  7 22:54:12 2002
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 14:54:12 -0800
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.43.0202071549300.5243004-100000@loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070452.23782.16710390958081962235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, but there's still no such thing as "Sanskrit Knowledge Systems."
Yes, Sanskrit did carry prestige -- but so what.  The problem with this
terminology is that it assumes that all important and significant works in
India during the period under consideration were written in Sanskrit.
Sorry, Tim et al., but this is just not true -- there are works in Telugu,
Kannada, Urdu, Bengali, Marathi, various kinds of Hindi, and even Tamil, and
they vastly outnumber anything in Sanskrit.  I strongly object to the
tendency some have to make Sanskrit a hermeneutically closed entity.  The
fact is, Sanskrit is simply part of an extremely complex interplay between
many languages, traditions, cultures, and religions.  Sometimes Sanskrit
mediated this interplay, sometimes it did not.  But however one looks at the
matter, there are absolutely no such thing as Sanskrit Knowledge Systems.
To suppose so is to begin with a demonstrably erroneous and incorrect
perspective.  Sanskrit is a language, not a culture or system of thought,
and it does not exist outside a rich context of many languages and
traditions.  Latin is a language much like Sanskrit in its prestige and
influence, but I doubt if you could find any Latinist who would approve the
term "Latin Knowledge Systems."  George Hart

On 2/7/02 2:13 PM, "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU> wrote:

> I suppose one reason that those involved decided to use the plural
> ("systems") is because they feel that there is no single knowledge system
> operative for the period in question.  Moreover, they might also feel that
> Sanskrit works have often been seen as authoritative *particularly
> because* they were written in Sanskrit.  This elite status of the Sanskrit
> language in the period discerned (1550-1750) is pretty well established
> throughout the subcontinent. No regional langauge compares in this way;
> nor do languages such as Pali, Ardhamagadhi, or classical Tamil carry
> comparable prestige throughout the subcontinent over these 200 years. For
> this reason, many ideas and arguments conceived in vernaculars came to be
> articulated in Sanskrit.
>
> A quick glance at the web site reveals a broad representation of South
> Asians, including native Tamil speakers. Given the plurality of the
> "knowledge systems" [="sastras"?] involved, I suspect that there will be
> *plenty* of material to consider, most of it published. (This is evident
> from quickly browsing the bibliographies cited on the site.)  No doubt
> other projects could be pursued which attempt an even greater range of
> inclusiveness.  What the NEH project aims at is certainly ambitious, if
> not comprehensive.
>
> best wishes,
> Tim Cahill
>




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Thu Feb  7 22:13:16 2002
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 16:13:16 -0600
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
In-Reply-To: <B8882F85.1C02%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070450.23782.13202942778970669850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I suppose one reason that those involved decided to use the plural
("systems") is because they feel that there is no single knowledge system
operative for the period in question.  Moreover, they might also feel that
Sanskrit works have often been seen as authoritative *particularly
because* they were written in Sanskrit.  This elite status of the Sanskrit
language in the period discerned (1550-1750) is pretty well established
throughout the subcontinent. No regional langauge compares in this way;
nor do languages such as Pali, Ardhamagadhi, or classical Tamil carry
comparable prestige throughout the subcontinent over these 200 years. For
this reason, many ideas and arguments conceived in vernaculars came to be
articulated in Sanskrit.

A quick glance at the web site reveals a broad representation of South
Asians, including native Tamil speakers. Given the plurality of the
"knowledge systems" [="sastras"?] involved, I suspect that there will be
*plenty* of material to consider, most of it published. (This is evident
from quickly browsing the bibliographies cited on the site.)  No doubt
other projects could be pursued which attempt an even greater range of
inclusiveness.  What the NEH project aims at is certainly ambitious, if
not comprehensive.

best wishes,
Tim Cahill




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  8 01:10:24 2002
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 17:10:24 -0800
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
In-Reply-To: <B8884594.1C06%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070458.23782.8176579001660757411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

re: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems
> I doubt if you could find any
> Latinist who would approve the
> term "Latin Knowledge Systems."

How about Greek-Latin Knowledge Systems in Europe
from ca. 0-1700 C.E. (vis-a-vis Celtic, Germanic,
Gothic Knowledge Systems which gradually
disappeared)? Esp. from 500 C.E. having a special
link with the Church (with church rituals in
Latin), with philosophy and emerging sciences, as
far as allowed by the Church and Christianity,
preferably in Latin, legal knowledge systems of
justice and injustice (Inquisition!) preferably
in Latin. The systems were of course not closed
but to see how and why they interacted and with
what, they are to be studied.
If a Latinist does not approve of the idea of
Latin Knowledge Systems it is perhaps because
these had gradually become so all-embracing and
all-pervading that nothing was left in Europe to
compare and contrast these Systems with (Systems
still plural, with countercurrents also in Latin)
-- until the Orient ... and then there were
indologists ...
Jan Houben


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Fri Feb  8 00:35:27 2002
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 02 18:35:27 -0600
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
In-Reply-To: <B8884594.1C06%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070456.23782.6200983948893384477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear "Indologists",

   Well, I must agree with George Hart when he points out that there was
an extremely complex interplay between people of the period in question
and that these people were diverse (lang., rel., culture, etc.).  And I'll
also agree that scholars should not assume that Sanskrit works were most
important or most significant.  Moreover, I'm happy that to hear an
acknowledgement that Sanskrit sometimes mediated in the interplay between
all these.  If this last is true, then I don't see a huge problem with
learning about the content of Sanskrit texts in the period.  The purpose
of my message was to point out that the shakers and movers behind this
project did not assume that a single system was operative.  (NB: I'm not
part of the group, and so reference to "Tim, et al" isn't quite
appropriate.)

   My hunch is that the label "Sanskrit Knowledge Systems" approximates
the use of the term "sastra".  No doubt the collective no. of works in
Telugu, Urdu, Bengali, Marathi, Tamil, etc. outnumber the texts written in
Skt during 1550-1750.  (I can't see how my message gave the impression
that I was arguing for BIG numbers.)  And I'm sure that a number of them
had a pan-regional impact. I sure hope there are coordinated initiatives
underway to publish, translate, interpret, criticize and, yes, even
celebrate the vernacular / regional works.  When that's underway, and when
this NEH project has produced its results, we ought to be in a better
position to see the interplay more clearly.  In any event, I'm glad to see
that *this* project will treat a period that has received less attention
than others, and my interest is piqued that such a period has been defined
as especially significant.

   After browsing through the web site, my main problem is with the word
"prosopography!"

best wishes,
Tim Cahill




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Feb  8 00:30:54 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 02 00:30:54 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
In-Reply-To: <B8884594.1C06%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070454.23782.216796266142045042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, George Hart wrote:


> Sorry, Tim et al., but this is just not true -- there are works in Telugu,
> Kannada, Urdu, Bengali, Marathi, various kinds of Hindi, and even Tamil, and
> they vastly outnumber anything in Sanskrit.

How could you leave out Persian?!

As a participant of the project, I can say that we are very aware of the
kind of linguistic and epistemological plurality that George refers to.
I hope that people will be interested in the writing and ideas that come
out of this project, and not judge it merely by it's title. But it's a
good title, I think, and it manages to say something important, even if it
doesn't capture quite everything the project is about.

Best,
Dominik

--
Dr Dominik Wujastyk
Wellcome Senior Research Fellow
Wellcome Centre for the History of Medicine at UCL.
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/histmed/




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  8 21:56:52 2002
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 02 13:56:52 -0800
Subject: praa.na and sun
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020207130619.028d3070@moka.ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <161227070461.23782.11544579386171164446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,
Q: Which texts on yoga and tantra identify or
link the sun and praa.na?

Clarification:
1. It seems a quite widespready idea to link
these two in modern presentations of yoga and
meditation, see a few quotes under (6) randomly
selected from the internet (first two suitable
hits after search on "prana sun").
2. Several vedic texts identify, directly or
indirectly, praa.na and the sun, e.g. Ath.Veda
11.4.12, S'atapatha Braahma.na 10.4.1.23,
Aitareya Braahma.na 1.19 and 5.31.3, Ait.
Aara.nyaka 2.2.1, and Pras'na Up. 2.5ff. Most
massively, and most convincingly to common sense,
these texts present as the cosmic counterpart of
praa.na not the sun (suurya, aaditya, savit.r)
but the wind, vaayu.
3. Some of these late Vedic texts link praa.na
and knowledge/insight/consciousness (prajnaa)
(Kau.siitaki Up) -- the Brahma Suutra seem
S'ankara's commentary (2.4.15-16) are unwilling
to accept this.
4. The Yoga-vaasi.s.tha presents a much closer
link between praa.na and knowledge -- cf.
Dasgupta in his hist. of indian philosophy,
1922:259: "From the movement of praa.na there is
the movement of citta, and from that there is
knowledge (sa.mvit)." In Jaideva Singh's
text+transl. of S'iva Suutras with K.semaraaja's
comm. I find, apart from ref. to a "bodily"
praa.na beyond which the aspirant should try to
go, a quoted statement according to which, in the
transl. of Singh, "consciousness is, at first,
transformed into praa.na" (praak sa.mvit praa.ne
pari.nataa). According to Singh (p. 227), here
"praa.na ... does not mean life-breath. It means
the universal Life-force which brings about both
subject and object." There is a link with three
breath-channels associated with sun, moon and
agni, but there is no convincing link with the
sun specifically.
5. As far as I could see, the link between
praa.na and the SUN is not made in the classical
sources on yoga (yoga-suutra and major
commentaries). Nor in the few tantric sources I
looked at. Did anyone encounter an "afterlife" in
later sources of any Sanskrit or Indic knowledge
system of the link sun-praa.na which we find in
vedic texts which in their formulation seem too
distant to be a direct source for the "popular"
ideas referred to under (6)?
6.
- http://home.att.net/~uy/page14.html an article
of a certain Yogi Baba Prem on "a little known
text called the Shiva Svarodaya":
"Hamsa usually means swan. It can also mean the
supreme soul, individual soul, prana, sun, Shiva,
the list could go on and on."
- quote from a link which seemed defective:
"Solar prana - this is that vital and magnetic
fluid which radiates from
the sun, and which is transmitted to man's
etheric body...It is... emitted ... "
www.inetport.com/~one/dkprana.html

Thanks for following my query till here, Jan
Houben



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com




From jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Feb  9 00:10:04 2002
From: jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Frits Staal)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 02 16:10:04 -0800
Subject: praa.na and sun
In-Reply-To: <20020208215652.86478.qmail@web11701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227070463.23782.16193652336176687782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have not followed this discussion but only a detail re. #6: hamsa does
not mean swan but goose - obvious also for semantic reasons unlike swan
which is a typically European-Romantic (Wordsworth?) bird.

At 01:56 PM 2/8/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Dear friends,
>Q: Which texts on yoga and tantra identify or
>link the sun and praa.na?
>
>Clarification:
>1. It seems a quite widespready idea to link
>these two in modern presentations of yoga and
>meditation, see a few quotes under (6) randomly
>selected from the internet (first two suitable
>hits after search on "prana sun").
>2. Several vedic texts identify, directly or
>indirectly, praa.na and the sun, e.g. Ath.Veda
>11.4.12, S'atapatha Braahma.na 10.4.1.23,
>Aitareya Braahma.na 1.19 and 5.31.3, Ait.
>Aara.nyaka 2.2.1, and Pras'na Up. 2.5ff. Most
>massively, and most convincingly to common sense,
>these texts present as the cosmic counterpart of
>praa.na not the sun (suurya, aaditya, savit.r)
>but the wind, vaayu.
>3. Some of these late Vedic texts link praa.na
>and knowledge/insight/consciousness (prajnaa)
>(Kau.siitaki Up) -- the Brahma Suutra seem
>S'ankara's commentary (2.4.15-16) are unwilling
>to accept this.
>4. The Yoga-vaasi.s.tha presents a much closer
>link between praa.na and knowledge -- cf.
>Dasgupta in his hist. of indian philosophy,
>1922:259: "From the movement of praa.na there is
>the movement of citta, and from that there is
>knowledge (sa.mvit)." In Jaideva Singh's
>text+transl. of S'iva Suutras with K.semaraaja's
>comm. I find, apart from ref. to a "bodily"
>praa.na beyond which the aspirant should try to
>go, a quoted statement according to which, in the
>transl. of Singh, "consciousness is, at first,
>transformed into praa.na" (praak sa.mvit praa.ne
>pari.nataa). According to Singh (p. 227), here
>"praa.na ... does not mean life-breath. It means
>the universal Life-force which brings about both
>subject and object." There is a link with three
>breath-channels associated with sun, moon and
>agni, but there is no convincing link with the
>sun specifically.
>5. As far as I could see, the link between
>praa.na and the SUN is not made in the classical
>sources on yoga (yoga-suutra and major
>commentaries). Nor in the few tantric sources I
>looked at. Did anyone encounter an "afterlife" in
>later sources of any Sanskrit or Indic knowledge
>system of the link sun-praa.na which we find in
>vedic texts which in their formulation seem too
>distant to be a direct source for the "popular"
>ideas referred to under (6)?
>6.
>- http://home.att.net/~uy/page14.html an article
>of a certain Yogi Baba Prem on "a little known
>text called the Shiva Svarodaya":
>"Hamsa usually means swan. It can also mean the
>supreme soul, individual soul, prana, sun, Shiva,
>the list could go on and on."
>- quote from a link which seemed defective:
>"Solar prana - this is that vital and magnetic
>fluid which radiates from
>the sun, and which is transmitted to man's
>etheric body...It is... emitted ... "
>www.inetport.com/~one/dkprana.html
>
>Thanks for following my query till here, Jan
>Houben
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
>http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
Frits Staal

http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Feb  9 14:23:37 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 02 14:23:37 +0000
Subject: praa.na and sun
In-Reply-To: <200202082358.g18NwbX18301@socrates.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <161227070465.23782.6106020591884433538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Frits Staal wrote:

> I have not followed this discussion but only a detail re. #6: hamsa does
> not mean swan but goose - obvious also for semantic reasons unlike swan
> which is a typically European-Romantic (Wordsworth?) bird.

Ahh, Frits.  According to received Indological opinion, you would be
absolutely right, but Julia has been re-examining the identity of the
hamsa, and would not agree with what you say, I think.  I'll leave it to
her to state her view on this, if she wishes.  She has gone into a lot of
detail, and has sophisticated ornithological knowledge as well as the
Indological background.  As far as I can gather, "swan" is correct *in
some circumstances*.  But I must leave it to Julia to say any more.

Best,
Dominik




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Sun Feb 10 02:55:20 2002
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 02 20:55:20 -0600
Subject: Librarian position at UIUC
Message-ID: <161227070468.23782.2793102819455649291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><bigger><bigger>South Asian
Studies Librarian and

Assistant, Associate or Full Professor of Library Administration

</bigger></bigger></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><bigger><bigger>University
of Illinois Library at Urbana-Champaign


</bigger><bold>Position Available:

</bold>As soon as possible, after the closing date.  A full-time
tenured or tenure-track faculty position.


<bold>Duties and Responsibilities: </bold>Reporting to the Head of the
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programs such as SAMP.  In addition, as one of five professional
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be responsible for supervising one Asian Library processing function
(e.g. acquisitions, cataloging, circulation), and will perform other
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members. For more detailed information, please visit
<underline><color><param>0000,0000,00FF</param>http://www.library.uiuc.edu/</color></underline>.


The Library consists of more than 40 departmental libraries that are
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From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 10 16:06:56 2002
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 08:06:56 -0800
Subject: hamsa, goose and swan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0202091407180.13657-100000@socrates-b.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070473.23782.3647083933707618902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It does not help me much in my search for the
link between praa.na and the sun, but: Yes,
etymologically hamsa is indeed ghansa (cf.
Mayrhofer) whereas swan, the singing bird (?),
has perhaps something to do with sv?nati and
latin sonare (at least acc. to Duden
Herkunfstwoerterbuch s.v. Schwan; unfortunately
the online indo-european dictionary is still only
starting up and I could not find a suitable lemma
for swan/zwaan/Schwan at
http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/ied/index2.html).
Please, Dominik, request Julia to enlighten us on
the overlap between hamsa and swan.
Best, Jan

--- Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Frits Staal wrote:
>
> > I have not followed this discussion but only
> a detail re. #6: hamsa does
> > not mean swan but goose - obvious also for
> semantic reasons unlike swan
> > which is a typically European-Romantic
> (Wordsworth?) bird.
>
> Ahh, Frits.  According to received Indological
> opinion, you would be
> absolutely right, but Julia has been
> re-examining the identity of the
> hamsa, and would not agree with what you say, I
> think.  I'll leave it to
> her to state her view on this, if she wishes.
> She has gone into a lot of
> detail, and has sophisticated ornithological
> knowledge as well as the
> Indological background.  As far as I can
> gather, "swan" is correct *in
> some circumstances*.  But I must leave it to
> Julia to say any more.
>
> Best,
> Dominik


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com




From jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Feb 10 17:43:25 2002
From: jfstaal at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Frits Staal)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 09:43:25 -0800
Subject: hamsa, goose and swan
In-Reply-To: <20020210160656.76576.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227070476.23782.13231445303761606340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes, I am sorry that it throws no light on sun and breath but I do agree
that Dominik should please ask Julia to enlighten us but not without paying
pranams to my late countryman J.Ph.Vogel (= bird) who planted in my brain
the idea that hamsa, apart from the etymology, also means "goose". Or so I
recall, perhaps erroneously since I cannot now find his monograph "The
goose in Indian literature and art" of 1962 (Leiden: Brill).


At 08:06 AM 2/10/02 -0800, you wrote:
>It does not help me much in my search for the
>link between praa.na and the sun, but: Yes,
>etymologically hamsa is indeed ghansa (cf.
>Mayrhofer) whereas swan, the singing bird (?),
>has perhaps something to do with sv?nati and
>latin sonare (at least acc. to Duden
>Herkunfstwoerterbuch s.v. Schwan; unfortunately
>the online indo-european dictionary is still only
>starting up and I could not find a suitable lemma
>for swan/zwaan/Schwan at
>http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/ied/index2.html).
>Please, Dominik, request Julia to enlighten us on
>the overlap between hamsa and swan.
>Best, Jan
>
>--- Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Frits Staal wrote:
>>
>> > I have not followed this discussion but only
>> a detail re. #6: hamsa does
>> > not mean swan but goose - obvious also for
>> semantic reasons unlike swan
>> > which is a typically European-Romantic
>> (Wordsworth?) bird.
>>
>> Ahh, Frits.  According to received Indological
>> opinion, you would be
>> absolutely right, but Julia has been
>> re-examining the identity of the
>> hamsa, and would not agree with what you say, I
>> think.  I'll leave it to
>> her to state her view on this, if she wishes.
>> She has gone into a lot of
>> detail, and has sophisticated ornithological
>> knowledge as well as the
>> Indological background.  As far as I can
>> gather, "swan" is correct *in
>> some circumstances*.  But I must leave it to
>> Julia to say any more.
>>
>> Best,
>> Dominik
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
>http://greetings.yahoo.com
> 
Frits Staal

http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/staal




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Sun Feb 10 20:59:44 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 13:59:44 -0700
Subject: hamsa, goose and swan
Message-ID: <161227070481.23782.15324825905514202711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I can't resist offering my two taka on this dilemma. Ordinary folk in former
east Bengal-East Pakistan-Bangladesh solved the problem without really
solving it--goose is "haansh" and swan is "raaj haansh".
I also looked up swan in the only birds of India book I own, and didn't find
it. One (or two?) species of swans do migrate from Russia south to Indian
wetlands during winter, leaving again when the return migration rolls
around;  but whether there is or was an indigenous Indian swan beats me.
Joanna Kirkpatrick




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Feb 10 22:00:16 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 14:00:16 -0800
Subject: Indological bookshop virus
Message-ID: <161227070470.23782.9392465971624509875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've had an email from a company purporting to be an Indological
publisher, something like "Indological Books and CDs", associated with a
person with the surname Jain.  Very plausible.  There's a website and an
email address ending in the domain ".cc".  I haven't got the details to
hand because I've deleted it all.

But I'm pretty sure this is nothing more than a new way of distributing a
virus.  If you try to view the company's website, at
something.something.cc, you get asked to install a program, and offered a
file "readme.exe".  It's all viral stuff.

Stay clear of it.

Best,
Dominik




From asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Feb 10 23:43:22 2002
From: asg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Andrew Glass)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 15:43:22 -0800
Subject: Unicode-compliant font for transliterating Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227070491.23782.4047503009348465173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I know of two Unicode compliant fonts for transliterating Sanskrit.

The first is a unicode version of a font that I created with the help of
John Smith. It is available from the following site, and includes a keyboard
template for use with Microsoft Word. This font was created in order to be
able to transliterate Gandhari, but also includes the necessary diacritics
for Sanskrit, and many other languages.

http://staff.washington.edu/asg/Pages/Fonts.html

The second is being developed by the Titus Project. This font aims at a much
more comprehensive coverage of unicode code points.

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/unitest2.htm#TITUUT


Andrew Glass


----- Original Message -----
From: "mccomas" <mccomas at cres20.ANU.EDU.AU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 3:09 PM
Subject: Unicode-compliant font for transliterating Sanskrit


> Dear Friends
>
> Can anyone recommend a Unicode-compliant font for transliterating
Sanskrit?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> McComas
>




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Sun Feb 10 22:54:20 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 17:54:20 -0500
Subject: hamsa, goose and swan
In-Reply-To: <20020210160656.76576.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227070486.23782.13104109730395580435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends,

Forgive me for entering into a private conversation but I think the
swan is a Central Asian Bird that was domesticated by Eastern
Europeans and others.  It was certainly a game bird in the Kurgans at
Pazyryk in the trans Altai.

If there was a species of swan in early Indic regions it would be
interesting to know

John C. Huntington

>It does not help me much in my search for the
>link between praa.na and the sun, but: Yes,
>etymologically hamsa is indeed ghansa (cf.
>Mayrhofer) whereas swan, the singing bird (?),
>has perhaps something to do with sv?nati and
>latin sonare (at least acc. to Duden
>Herkunfstwoerterbuch s.v. Schwan; unfortunately
>the online indo-european dictionary is still only
>starting up and I could not find a suitable lemma
>for swan/zwaan/Schwan at
>http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/ied/index2.html).
>Please, Dominik, request Julia to enlighten us on
>the overlap between hamsa and swan.
>Best, Jan
>
>--- Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:
>>  On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Frits Staal wrote:
>>
>>  > I have not followed this discussion but only
>>  a detail re. #6: hamsa does
>>  > not mean swan but goose - obvious also for
>>  semantic reasons unlike swan
>>  > which is a typically European-Romantic
>>  (Wordsworth?) bird.
>>
>>  Ahh, Frits.  According to received Indological
>>  opinion, you would be
>>  absolutely right, but Julia has been
>>  re-examining the identity of the
>>  hamsa, and would not agree with what you say, I
>>  think.  I'll leave it to
>>  her to state her view on this, if she wishes.
>>  She has gone into a lot of
>>  detail, and has sophisticated ornithological
>>  knowledge as well as the
>>  Indological background.  As far as I can
>>  gather, "swan" is correct *in
>>  some circumstances*.  But I must leave it to
>>  Julia to say any more.
>>
>>  Best,
>>  Dominik
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
>http://greetings.yahoo.com




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Mon Feb 11 00:32:24 2002
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 19:32:24 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems on the Eve of Colonialism
Message-ID: <161227070493.23782.3739322703113855582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A brief, tardy, addendum to Jan Houben's response to George Hart's objections
to the notion of Sanskrit knowledge systems:

In fact, there are at least a few Classicists who would accept, if not quite
approve of, the term "Latin Knowledge Systems."  Admittedly, Classicists are
generally more comfortable with traditional terms like "epistemology," but
some readily recognize that a term like "Sanskrit knowledge systems"  refers,
by synecdoche, not to a language, strictly speaking, but to a linguistic
community. If we can talk about a Sanskrit poetics, why not Sanskrit
knowledge systems?

I think that classical languages like Latin and Sanskrit [and Tamil!] are
nicely suited to the task of converying traditional knowledge systems.  In
fact, I cannot think of another thing that classical languages actually do.
In this sense, they are not at all like natural languages.

Like others, I fail to see how a colloquium on Sanskrit knowledge systems
necessarily "assumes that all important and significant works in India during
the period under consideration were written in Sanskrit."

Anyway, George, it is encouraging to see that you continue to carry on the
good fight for Tamil, after all these years.

Best,

George Thompson



In a message dated 2/7/02 8:19:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM writes:


> re: Sanskrit Knowledge Systems
> > I doubt if you could find any
> > Latinist who would approve the
> > term "Latin Knowledge Systems."
>
> How about Greek-Latin Knowledge Systems in Europe
> from ca. 0-1700 C.E. (vis-a-vis Celtic, Germanic,
> Gothic Knowledge Systems which gradually
> disappeared)? Esp. from 500 C.E. having a special
> link with the Church (with church rituals in
> Latin), with philosophy and emerging sciences, as
> far as allowed by the Church and Christianity,
> preferably in Latin, legal knowledge systems of
> justice and injustice (Inquisition!) preferably
> in Latin. The systems were of course not closed
> but to see how and why they interacted and with
> what, they are to be studied.
> If a Latinist does not approve of the idea of
> Latin Knowledge Systems it is perhaps because
> these had gradually become so all-embracing and
> all-pervading that nothing was left in Europe to
> compare and contrast these Systems with (Systems
> still plural, with countercurrents also in Latin)
> -- until the Orient ... and then there were
> indologists ...
> Jan Houben
>




From Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Sun Feb 10 19:10:27 2002
From: Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 20:10:27 +0100
Subject: Indological bookshop virus
Message-ID: <161227070479.23782.14064887258707542648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wujastyk" <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:00 PM
Subject: Indological bookshop virus


> I've had an email from a company purporting to be an Indological
> publisher, something like "Indological Books and CDs", associated with a
> person with the surname Jain.  Very plausible.  There's a website and an
> email address ending in the domain ".cc".  I haven't got the details to
> hand because I've deleted it all.
>
> But I'm pretty sure this is nothing more than a new way of distributing a
> virus.  If you try to view the company's website, at
> something.something.cc, you get asked to install a program, and offered a
> file "readme.exe".  It's all viral stuff.
>
> Stay clear of it.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>




From vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET  Sun Feb 10 22:12:18 2002
From: vjroebuck at MACUNLIMITED.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 22:12:18 +0000
Subject: hamsa, goose and swan
In-Reply-To: <200202101731.g1AHVR301117@socrates.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <161227070484.23782.6346810848299062075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Yes, I am sorry that it throws no light on sun and breath but I do agree
>that Dominik should please ask Julia to enlighten us but not without paying
>pranams to my late countryman J.Ph.Vogel (= bird) who planted in my brain
>the idea that hamsa, apart from the etymology, also means "goose". Or so I
>recall, perhaps erroneously since I cannot now find his monograph "The
>goose in Indian literature and art" of 1962 (Leiden: Brill).

Yes, it's an excellent little book.  According to my notes, Vogel argues
convincingly that haMsa or rAjahaMsa is a mainly white form of the Indian
goose,  Anser indicus, while kalahaMsa is the greylag goose, Anser anser.
My understanding is that the swan is not native to South Asia, so when it
was eventually imported, the word haMsa was extended to that too.  But the
haMsas of classical Indian art are definitely stylized geese.

There's enough material in Indian art and literature to keep an
ornithologist happily employed for years.  (Starting with a famous Pahari
painting in the V & A, universally known as "The Lady with the Hawk" that
ought to be retitled, "The Lady with the Lugger Falcon".)

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK




From LubinT at WLU.EDU  Mon Feb 11 14:36:33 2002
From: LubinT at WLU.EDU (Timothy Lubin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 09:36:33 -0500
Subject: Early Indian Census Reports
Message-ID: <161227070497.23782.11356554848545256724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Friedlander,

Many thanks for making the Memorandum on the Census of British India of
1871-72 and the General Report on the Census of India for 1891available
on the web in digital format.  This greatly increases its utility (as
well as its ready availability) of this valuable resource.  I am using
it to track particular forms of religious practice and the application
of the ethno-religious categories "Aryan" and "Vedic" in the 19th
century.

The adding of more such material to your site will be an great
contribution to S. Asian studies.

Yours appreciatively,
Tim Lubin


Timothy Lubin
Assistant Professor (Religions of South Asia)
23 Newcomb Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450  USA

office: 540.463.8146; fax: 540.463.8498
lubint at wlu.edu   |   http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint




From mccomas at CRES.ANU.EDU.AU  Sun Feb 10 23:09:16 2002
From: mccomas at CRES.ANU.EDU.AU (mccomas)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 10:09:16 +1100
Subject: Unicode-compliant font for transliterating Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227070488.23782.8189345896014414950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends

Can anyone recommend a Unicode-compliant font for transliterating Sanskrit?

Thanks in advance

McComas




From LubinT at WLU.EDU  Mon Feb 11 17:10:42 2002
From: LubinT at WLU.EDU (Timothy Lubin)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 12:10:42 -0500
Subject: Early Indian Census Reports (APOLOGY for private messge)
Message-ID: <161227070499.23782.6724923369916721987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My apologies to the list for sending a private message to the list.  So
much for my smug belief that I would never be so clumsy....




From p.friedlander at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Mon Feb 11 01:17:02 2002
From: p.friedlander at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Peter Friedlander)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 12:17:02 +1100
Subject: Early Indian Census Reports
Message-ID: <161227070495.23782.1772270397405327959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,

You might be interested in this new online resource.

Online searchable text versions of the Memorandum on the Census of British India of 1871-72 and the General Report on the Census of India for 1891, are now accessible at this url. http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/census/

The reports contain data on Indian; geography, politics, population, occupations, ethnography, language, race, caste, tribe, literacy, infirmities and sex and age distribution. 
 
La Trobe University is currently trying to get funding to digitise and post more early Indian Census data on the web. 
To do so we need to demonstrate a National (and International) demand for this data. If you are interested in seeing more such data made available please send an Email to Dr Peter G. Friedlander to express your interest. Please include: your name, the name and address of any institution you are working for or studying at and the kind of research that you might use Census data for.

Regards

--------------------------------------------
Dr Peter G. Friedlander
Open Learning Buddhism/Hindi Co-ordinator
Asian Studies
La Trobe University, VIC 3086
Australia
Tel: (03) 9479 2064
Fax: (03) 9479 1880
http://www.chaf.lib.latrobe.edu.au/census




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Feb 11 21:36:22 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 16:36:22 -0500
Subject: hamsa, goose and swan
Message-ID: <161227070501.23782.12413090979985473645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe in some South Asian languages raj(a)hams(a) nowadays means not
"swan" but "flamingo."


Allen


Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Feb 11 22:07:42 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 17:07:42 -0500
Subject: Tamil and other South Asian publishing in Scandinavia?
Message-ID: <161227070503.23782.578407749869914627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Gombrich,

Thanks for the suggestion.  My colleague is going only to Sweden, I
find out, and I will give him Prof. Schalk's name.

Sincerely,

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.

>>> richard.gombrich at BALLIOL.OXFORD.AC.UK 01/28 5:15 AM >>>
Someone who is very much in touch with Tamils in Scandinavia is
Professor Peter Schalk, Professor of Religious Studies at the
University of Uppsala, Sweden.
--




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Feb 11 22:15:17 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 17:15:17 -0500
Subject: Tamil and other South Asian publishing in Scandinavia?
Message-ID: <161227070506.23782.10413794771981787090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to those who responded to my query, including Asko Parpola,
Richard Gombrich, Ken Zysk, Sivalingam Ramalingam, and N. S. Pirabu.

Sincerely,

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From lel at LEL.MSK.RU  Mon Feb 11 22:34:53 2002
From: lel at LEL.MSK.RU (Lielukhine D.N.)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 02 01:34:53 +0300
Subject: Unicode-compliant font for transliterating Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227070509.23782.10486964090627730856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You can try shri.ttf  font from http://indepigr.narod.ru/index1.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: mccomas <mccomas at cres20.ANU.EDU.AU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 2:09 AM
Subject: Unicode-compliant font for transliterating Sanskrit


> Dear Friends
>
> Can anyone recommend a Unicode-compliant font for transliterating
Sanskrit?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> McComas




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Feb 12 18:45:45 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 02 10:45:45 -0800
Subject: praa.na and sun (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227070512.23782.4885231949070426578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:36:45 -0800
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vidya at scripps.edu>
To: ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk
Subject: praa.na and sun

[...]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With respect to the points raised by Jan Houben, it seems to me that rather
than yoga or tantra texts, it is in the vedaanta texts that most references
will be found. As Sankara has already been mentioned, the following may be of
interest.

1. I don't think Sankara's commentary on brahmasuutra 2.4.15-16 discusses
   the kaushiitakii braahma.na upanishad at all. Instead, check his
   commentary on the concluding suutras in the first adhyaaya, first paada
   (from the suutra praa.nas tathaanugamaat to the one reading jiiva-mukhya-
   praa.na-lingaan neti cen na ..). This is where the said upanishad
   reference to praa.na and consciousness is the vishaya-vaakya. If I
   remember right, Sankara does not quite equate the two directly. Rather,
   the idea is that both denote brahman, but as limited by different
   upaadhi-s or by kriyaa and j~naana 'sakti-s respectively.

2. With respect to brahmasuutra-s 2.4.15-16, see one other suutra immediately
   prior to these in the same adhikara.na, the one that reads na vaayukriye
   p.rthag upade'saat. Here, contrary to common sense, praa.na is set apart
   from vaayu. In fact, from suutra 2.4.1 onwards, the term praa.na is used
   not just for the breath, but to denote all the organs, including the five
   sense organs, the five action organs and the mind (the internal organ).

3. See also Sankara's commentary on b.rhadaara.nyaka 2.4.11 - the particular
   merges into the general (the verb form used is praliiyate), in progession,
   and ultimately into the praj~naanaghana. See particularly,
   "karmendriyaa.naa.m vishayaa.h ... taani saamaanyaani praa.na-maatram.
   praa.na's ca praj~naana-maatram." This apparently equates praa.na with
   praj~naana, but if I have his sense right, Sankara is saying that the
   praa.na finally merges into pure consciousness. And as in point 1 above,
   note that Sankara maintains a distinction between karmendriya-s and
   j~naanendriya-s, the former merging into consciousness through praa.na
   and the latter through vij~naana-matra.

4. Here is where the connection to the sun comes in, at least as far as the
   advaita school and its upanishadic sources are concerned. There is a
   pra'snopanishad teaching of meditation on the maatra-s of Om, which is
   connected to the dhaara.naa-yoga in the eighth chapter of the giitaa, as
   also to chaandogya 8.6.5-6, which specifically mentions aaditya. These
   are tied in with the devayaana, which I have sufficient reason to believe
   forms the upanishadic precursor to various kinds of ku.n.dalinii yoga
   teachings. Briefly put, the praa.na leaves the microcosm of the human
   body through the naa.dii that rises upwards, and reaches the macrocosm
   of the aaditya-loka. I would suggest a look at Sankara's commentaries
   on the above, particularly those on giitaa 8.9-13, and chaandogya 8.6.5.

Best regards,
Vidyasankar




From jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK  Tue Feb 12 17:13:36 2002
From: jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK (Julia Leslie)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 02 17:13:36 +0000
Subject: hamsa (1)
Message-ID: <161227070515.23782.10105835622323831840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have so enjoyed catching up on this discussion thread. As Dominik
indicated, the (religious) symbolism of birds in Sanskrit literature is
a particular passion of mine, and I plan a monograph on the subject
as soon as I am able to finish the backlog of other work.

My basic premise is that we are unable to understand the underlying
symbolism involving a given bird if we cannot identify the specific
bird in question. Anyone who is interested in the one article in this
area thay I have completed so far might like to read:

'A Bird Bereaved: the identity and significance of Valmiki's kraunca.'
Journal of Indian Philosophy 26 (1998): 455-87.

I agree with Frits and others that Vogel's excellent work is the place
to start in relation to this question, but I also believe that there is
more to be said. I shall see if I can dig out my draft article, and send
the beginning of it in my next email.

Julia


Dr I J Leslie
Department of the Study of Religions
SOAS




From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 13 15:05:15 2002
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 07:05:15 -0800
Subject: Oppert Catalogue
In-Reply-To: <004801c1b34c$54ad1440$a56df050@lel>
Message-ID: <161227070534.23782.969557674434121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,

does anyone of you have access to the Catalogue of
Sanskrit MSS in Private  Collections of South India,
by Gustav Oppert, Madras, 1883 and 1885 (2 vols)? The
copy I have been trying to use has many pages missing.
           Regards,
       Marina Orelskaya


Dr Marina Orelskaya
c/o Department of Sanskrit
and Prakrit Languages,
University of Pune,
Ganeshkhind Road,
Pune 411007,
Maharashtra,
India

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Wed Feb 13 14:21:55 2002
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 08:21:55 -0600
Subject: Chakravarty
Message-ID: <161227070528.23782.1743914826900888170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All,

Does anybody know whether Chakravarty, or any of its spelling and
pronunciation variants, is ever used as a name by brahmins?

Hans Henrich Hock




From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU  Wed Feb 13 14:19:59 2002
From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Manring, Rebecca)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 09:19:59 -0500
Subject: Chakravarty
Message-ID: <161227070530.23782.1337900718121079154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Oh yes, it's definitely a brahmin name!

Rebecca J. Manring
Religious Studies
Indiana University


-----Original Message-----
From: hans henrich hock [mailto:hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:22 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Chakravarty

Dear All,

Does anybody know whether Chakravarty, or any of its spelling and
pronunciation variants, is ever used as a name by brahmins?

Hans Henrich Hock




From jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK  Wed Feb 13 09:25:06 2002
From: jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK (Julia Leslie)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 09:25:06 +0000
Subject: hamsa (2)
Message-ID: <161227070517.23782.3401702595649495235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As promised:

My concern is to ascertain the denotation of some specific uses of the
term hamsa. There seem to be two, mutually conflicting but equally
prevailing, views on the matter. Another option, a minority opinion, trails
in third place.
        The first view is usually held by Indian scholars who have perhaps
been influenced by the vernacular uses of the term: according to this
view, hamsa always denotes a swan. What might be called the old school
of Western scholars agrees. The second view is held by more recent
Western scholars, most of whom will have been persuaded by the work
of Jean Philippe Vogel (1953, 1962). Vogel concludes his famous 1953
article with the words: ?We may be certain that the Sanskrit word hamsa
always designated the goose and nothing else (p.24).? So certain is Vogel
of this identification that his much longer, posthumous 1962 publication
barely reconsiders the issue, repeatedly translating the term hamsa as
?goose? without further qualification. There is clearly a problem here:
either the term hamsa always denotes the swan or it always denotes the
goose, depending on your school of thought. But there is the third option
too. According to some of the earliest Western scholars, the hamsa is,
or at least can be, a flamingo.
        I begin with a brief consideration of some of the problems with
Vogel?s work. First, his assumption that a given bird name must always
denote the same species is false. As I discovered while researching the
term kraunca, this is simply not the case. One must judge each
occurrence of the term within its textual context. There can be no one
denotation of the term hamsa that would fit equally well all the contexts
in which it appears. Second, Vogel was an art historian and therefore
much of his work derives from the visual representation of the hamsa in
Buddhist sculptures. Since, to his mind, these figures suggest the goose,
Vogel takes this identification as the key and applies it wholesale. I
would argue to the contrary: many of the so-called hamsa sculptures
resemble no bird in the real world, neither goose nor swan. Those that do
look more like geese than anything else prove only that the sculptors
were familiar with the goose. It remains perfectly possible (but I have yet
to check) that the much earlier texts?for example, the Buddhist
Jatakas containing the stories for which these sculptures are mere
illustrations?provide less obviously ?goose-like? evidence. Third, Vogel
finds support for his identification in personal communications from
ornithologists to the effect that, while the goose is a common bird in
India, the swan is not. On the basis of this contemporary evidence, he
maintains not only that swans are not to be found in India today but, more
important, that they have never been found there. Ergo, as Vogel explains,
the term hamsa can never denote the swan. Having reached this
conclusion, Vogel is forced to explain away ?swan-like? qualities
attributed to the hamsa; for example, the adult swan?s radiant white
plumage is said to belong to ?the white goose? (1962: 10), but there is no
Indian white goose.
        Vogel?s work has evidently been instrumental in changing the
understanding of hamsa in Western scholarship. For a large number of
scholars, the problem has been solved. In my view, however, this is not
the case. Following Dave?s lead and that of my own work on Valmiki?s
kraunca, I intend to revisit the issue of the identification and
significance of the hamsa. I shall base my argument neither on
contemporary evidence nor on art-historical data but on ornithological
readings of early Sanskrit texts.
        I shall argue that the situation in Sanskrit literature is far more
complex than Vogel has allowed. The term hamsa and related variants  are
found in texts across the whole range of Sanskrit material: from the
celebrated hamsavati mantra in the Rgveda to the works of Kalidasa;
from both great epics to the fables of the Hitopadesa and the birth-
stories of the Buddha in the Jatakamala. As I hope to demonstrate, the
term is used in Sanskrit to denote, collectively or individually, a range of
large aquatic birds, including swans, geese, flamingos and some ducks.
... I conclude that, while the term hamsa may sometimes denote a
species of goose (perhaps even a flamingo?), on some specific occasions
it must denote a species of swan.
==========================

I hope all this is of some interest to the list. More important, I would be
delighted to receive any comments, criticisms, advice that might help me
on my way. Sparked by your enquiries, I am now eager to get back to this
corner of my research.
Julia


Dr I J Leslie
Department of the Study of Religions
SOAS




From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU  Wed Feb 13 14:31:44 2002
From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Manring, Rebecca)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 09:31:44 -0500
Subject: Chakravarty
Message-ID: <161227070532.23782.14347475341917327484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Hans,

I should hasten to add that my frame of reference is, as you know, Bengal!
And so I was speaking for the provenance of the name in that part of South
Asia.

Rebecca J. Manring
Religious Studies
Indiana University


-----Original Message-----
From: hans henrich hock [mailto:hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:22 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Chakravarty

Dear All,

Does anybody know whether Chakravarty, or any of its spelling and
pronunciation variants, is ever used as a name by brahmins?

Hans Henrich Hock




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Wed Feb 13 10:07:16 2002
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 10:07:16 +0000
Subject: hamsa (2)
In-Reply-To: <E16avj2-000AA2-00@mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com>
Message-ID: <161227070520.23782.15485025778448106817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Juilia,

Just a quick comment. My impression was that the translation by
'goose' was unacceptable at one time because of the connotations to
ordinary people in England (and perhaps elsewhere) of the word goose:
'the silly goose', etc. You simply couldn't use the word in
translating a poetic context. I don't think this necessarily meant
that people thought the ha.msa was a swan. They just avoided the
rendering 'goose' because at that time it would make Indian
literature appear ridiculous to the ordinary English reader. (Some
people nowadays would have a rather different impression of geese due
to wild-life programs, etc.)

>         The first view is usually held by Indian scholars who have perhaps
>been influenced by the vernacular uses of the term: according to this
>view, hamsa always denotes a swan. What might be called the old school
>of Western scholars agrees.

Lance Cousins

--
HEADINGTON, UK




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Feb 13 15:50:05 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 10:50:05 -0500
Subject: Lions and tigers (Was: hamsa)
Message-ID: <161227070536.23782.17208417306717037673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Georg v. Simson wrote:
<<In Hindi, zer may denote both tiger and lion -
people either do not know the distinction or they do not care because
they regard it irrelevant.>>

On the same line, in miniatures a lion is frequently represented as a
tiger with a mane, or even with what looks less like a mane than a
beard.  This pops up particular in representations of Vishnu Narasimha.
Has anyone worked on when this change starts?  And can it be correlated
with a decline in the population and spread of the Indian lion, so that
it was harder and harder to see one even in royal menageries?

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Feb 13 15:56:18 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 10:56:18 -0500
Subject: Oppert Catalogue
Message-ID: <161227070538.23782.5196272314235382375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Orelskaya,

LC seems to have this.  What pages do you want?

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.

>>> m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM 02/13 10:05 AM >>>
Dear list-members,

does anyone of you have access to the Catalogue of
Sanskrit MSS in Private  Collections of South India,
by Gustav Oppert, Madras, 1883 and 1885 (2 vols)? The
copy I have been trying to use has many pages missing.
           Regards,
       Marina Orelskaya


Dr Marina Orelskaya
c/o Department of Sanskrit
and Prakrit Languages,
University of Pune,
Ganeshkhind Road,
Pune 411007,
Maharashtra,
India

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Wed Feb 13 18:53:58 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:53:58 -0700
Subject: Indian ornithology
Message-ID: <161227070540.23782.14165432538420978962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I too have puzzled over the hamsa-swan-goose question, so if it's not
ungermane, I enclose here a statement about the mute swan's migratory reach,
which includes what is termed "northwestern India".  If that designation
applies to the historic Gandhara area, then the appearance of swan-like
birds in Buddhist sculpture might not be such a stretch from what may have
been observed in the natural world.  But I also wonder, given that Gandharan
Buddhist art shows powerful Greek esthetic influences, if the "art swan" may
have first appeared with Greek art in the area. (Let's not forget the figure
of Leda and the swan.)  A specialist's knowledge of Gandharan area art would
be welcome.
Another question:  are there any images of Devi Sarasvati's vahana, before
the modern period,  that clearly show a goose?  I suspect that the 19th
century English preference for the term swan over goose noted by Lance
Nelson also carried over into colonial influences on the popular commercial
poster arts, where Sarasvati is shown with a clearly drawn swan (no goose)
at her side.
--------------
Mute Swan:
Palearctic, Nearctic, Ethiopian: The mute swan breeds in the British Isles,
north central Europe and north central Asia. It winters as far south as
North Africa, the Near East, and to northwest India and Korea.  (Reilly,
1968; Granlund, McPeek, and Adams, 1994)

Joanna kirkpatrick




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Feb 13 12:01:35 2002
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 13:01:35 +0100
Subject: hamsa (2)
In-Reply-To: <E16avj2-000AA2-00@mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com>
Message-ID: <161227070522.23782.3027225528614266496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Julia Leslie,

thank you for sharing your ideas about the hamsa problem with us!
Your introduction looks promising. As you invite us to give our
comments, here come some suggestions:
I doubt that it is in all contexts meaningful to ask for the
ornithological identity of hamsa because this could result in
introducing distinctions that did not exist in the mind of an author
or an artist. An example from our culture would be the distinction
between crow and raven which simply does not exist in the mind of
many people. Thus "Rabe" in German often may denote both species.
This indifference does not only concern birds, but also rather
spectacular animals. In Hindi, zer may denote both tiger and lion -
people either do not know the distinction or they do not care because
they regard it irrelevant. And in the Ramayana, we may suspect that
the author(s) did not really know what bears looks like and that they
considered them to be a subspecies of ape/monkey.
So we should always ask ourselves what kind of knowledge an author is
likely to have had and how relevant an ornithological distinction is
in a given context. If you notice about Buddhist sculpture that
>                                   many of the so-called hamsa sculptures
>resemble no bird in the real world, neither goose nor swan
then the reason may be either that the artists were unable to
represent the birds in a more realistic way or that they did not care
to make distinctions that were irrelevant to them. There are quite a
lot of people who cannot even distinguish goose and duck.
And do not forget that animals in Indian culture develop a
folkloristic or literary or religious or philosophical identity of
their own. It would not surprise me if you would find instances where
the bird combines features that do not exist with any known
ornithological species.
So I am a bit sceptical about your conviction (or do I misunderstand
you?) that hamsa necessarily denotes something that exists in the
real world (as seen with our modern eyes). If we are fortunate, words
denote something that exists in our minds, and if we are less
fortunate, they do not do even this.
All this is just meant to stress the complexity of the question, and
the idea is in no way to discourage you. It is after all a legitimate
project to try to find out what species of bird we have to do with in
those cases where it seems to matter. And whether the swan, from the
viewpoint of natural history, is an option at all. (But even if it
were not, it could in a poetical context be more appropriate to
translate hamsa by "swan" than by "goose" - see Lance Cousin's
message about the translators of the 19th century).

Best regards,
Georg v.Simson




From jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK  Wed Feb 13 13:12:46 2002
From: jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK (Julia Leslie)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 13:12:46 +0000
Subject: hamsa (2)
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b88ff1c374ea@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227070524.23782.17527292433386343100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Georg,

You're right too! I shall have to be more careful in how I express
myself. As I hope I make clear in my kraunca article, it is indeed
very often the case that early Indian writers are completely
uninterested in the ornithological details that are of such interest to
me. Most of the time, we'll never know what bird they intend us to
envisage. (You can imagine my distress, I'm sure, when I track
down yet another commentary on a particular passage only to find
the unhelpful gloss: 'a bird'!) There is also the issue of mythological
creatures, created to meet a poetic need rather than to reflect the
real world.

No, my concern is far less ambitious than reconstructing the real
birds of a distant (and, I agree, often uninterested) past culture in
every bird reference. But *some* of these references may indeed
indicate a real bird, as in the case of Valmiki's kraunca. And then, I
believe, we need to figure out both its identity and its symbolic
significance. It's a sad thought, but perfectly possible, that I may not
find the kind of ornithological detail that I am looking for with regard
to the word hamsa. Wish me luck...

Julia

=========================
On 13 Feb 02, at 13:01, Georg von Simson wrote:

> Dear Julia Leslie,
>
> thank you for sharing your ideas about the hamsa problem with us!
> Your introduction looks promising. As you invite us to give our
> comments, here come some suggestions:
> I doubt that it is in all contexts meaningful to ask for the
> ornithological identity of hamsa because this could result in
> introducing distinctions that did not exist in the mind of an author
> or an artist. An example from our culture would be the distinction
> between crow and raven which simply does not exist in the mind of
> many people. Thus "Rabe" in German often may denote both species.
> This indifference does not only concern birds, but also rather
> spectacular animals. In Hindi, zer may denote both tiger and lion -
> people either do not know the distinction or they do not care because they
> regard it irrelevant. And in the Ramayana, we may suspect that the
> author(s) did not really know what bears looks like and that they
> considered them to be a subspecies of ape/monkey. So we should always ask
> ourselves what kind of knowledge an author is likely to have had and how
> relevant an ornithological distinction is in a given context. If you
> notice about Buddhist sculpture that >
> many of the so-called hamsa sculptures >resemble no bird in the real
> world, neither goose nor swan then the reason may be either that the
> artists were unable to represent the birds in a more realistic way or that
> they did not care to make distinctions that were irrelevant to them. There
> are quite a lot of people who cannot even distinguish goose and duck. And
> do not forget that animals in Indian culture develop a folkloristic or
> literary or religious or philosophical identity of their own. It would not
> surprise me if you would find instances where the bird combines features
> that do not exist with any known ornithological species. So I am a bit
> sceptical about your conviction (or do I misunderstand you?) that hamsa
> necessarily denotes something that exists in the real world (as seen with
> our modern eyes). If we are fortunate, words denote something that exists
> in our minds, and if we are less fortunate, they do not do even this. All
> this is just meant to stress the complexity of the question, and the idea
> is in no way to discourage you. It is after all a legitimate project to
> try to find out what species of bird we have to do with in those cases
> where it seems to matter. And whether the swan, from the viewpoint of
> natural history, is an option at all. (But even if it were not, it could
> in a poetical context be more appropriate to translate hamsa by "swan"
> than by "goose" - see Lance Cousin's message about the translators of the
> 19th century).
>
> Best regards,
> Georg v.Simson




From jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK  Wed Feb 13 13:12:46 2002
From: jl6 at SOAS.AC.UK (Julia Leslie)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 13:12:46 +0000
Subject: hamsa (2)
In-Reply-To: <p05100300b88fe8bb1684@[213.105.164.165]>
Message-ID: <161227070526.23782.5947923011074860440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lance,
You're right, of course. Hamsa often denotes the goose, which was
rejected in English translations for the reasons you describe. But
this has led to a blanket translation (goose) for all uses. Hence the
importance of Vogel's work. My concern is that 'goose' doesn't
always fit...
Julia
====================

On 13 Feb 02, at 10:07, L.S.Cousins wrote:

> Juilia,
>
> Just a quick comment. My impression was that the translation by
> 'goose' was unacceptable at one time because of the connotations to
> ordinary people in England (and perhaps elsewhere) of the word goose: 'the
> silly goose', etc. You simply couldn't use the word in translating a
> poetic context. I don't think this necessarily meant that people thought
> the ha.msa was a swan. They just avoided the rendering 'goose' because at
> that time it would make Indian literature appear ridiculous to the
> ordinary English reader. (Some people nowadays would have a rather
> different impression of geese due to wild-life programs, etc.)
>
> >         The first view is usually held by Indian scholars who have
> >         perhaps
> >been influenced by the vernacular uses of the term: according to this
> >view, hamsa always denotes a swan. What might be called the old school of
> >Western scholars agrees.
>
> Lance Cousins
>
> --
> HEADINGTON, UK




From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Feb 13 18:56:23 2002
From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 13:56:23 -0500
Subject: Chakravarty
Message-ID: <161227070542.23782.17369453655939764972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Hock:

If it helps to have a reiteration, Cakravarty and all its variants are
Brahmin names. At least, all the Cakrabartis I have met have been Brahmins.

Lynken Ghose



>-----Original Message-----
>From: hans henrich hock [mailto:hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU]
>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:22 AM
>To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>Subject: Chakravarty
>
>Dear All,
>
>Does anybody know whether Chakravarty, or any of its spelling and
>pronunciation variants, is ever used as a name by brahmins?
>
>Hans Henrich Hock




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Wed Feb 13 20:02:23 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 15:02:23 -0500
Subject: Indian ornithology
In-Reply-To: <006501c1b4bf$cc044670$2930cece@JKIRK>
Message-ID: <161227070546.23782.2917045477496559071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Earlier I tried to send an image of the Mauryan Vajrasana with its
"Geese" but we are restricted from sending images on this Indology
listserv  so it bounced back.

However in our Pala  (ca. 750-1300) sculpture archive, Sarasvati
occurs 23 times and is on a lotus with no vahana.

She occurs in the Nepal Iconographic database (all from drawings in
iconographic manuals of the 18-20th centuries) six times and is only
on a lotus if anything. The few stone images that we have photographs
of her in Nepal are also on lotuses. no Hamsa of any species

As for Gandhara, We have about 6000 images of Gandharan material in
the archive, including a good many stair casings on which mythic
animals are carved, lots of birds but no swans

such a survey is hardly definitive, but identifiable swans are not
commonly represented in Indic art before about 1300.

John



>I too have puzzled over the hamsa-swan-goose question, so if it's not
>ungermane, I enclose here a statement about the mute swan's migratory reach,
>which includes what is termed "northwestern India".  If that designation
>applies to the historic Gandhara area, then the appearance of swan-like
>birds in Buddhist sculpture might not be such a stretch from what may have
>been observed in the natural world.  But I also wonder, given that Gandharan
>Buddhist art shows powerful Greek esthetic influences, if the "art swan" may
>have first appeared with Greek art in the area. (Let's not forget the figure
>of Leda and the swan.)  A specialist's knowledge of Gandharan area art would
>be welcome.
>Another question:  are there any images of Devi Sarasvati's vahana, before
>the modern period,  that clearly show a goose?  I suspect that the 19th
>century English preference for the term swan over goose noted by Lance
>Nelson also carried over into colonial influences on the popular commercial
>poster arts, where Sarasvati is shown with a clearly drawn swan (no goose)
>at her side.
>--------------
>Mute Swan:
>Palearctic, Nearctic, Ethiopian: The mute swan breeds in the British Isles,
>north central Europe and north central Asia. It winters as far south as
>North Africa, the Near East, and to northwest India and Korea.  (Reilly,
>1968; Granlund, McPeek, and Adams, 1994)
>
>Joanna kirkpatrick




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Feb 13 21:31:31 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 16:31:31 -0500
Subject: Oppert Catalogue
Message-ID: <161227070550.23782.6021768159385583623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks.

A

>>> ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK 02/13 10:32 PM >>>
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Allen W Thrasher wrote:

> LC seems to have this.  What pages do you want?

Allen, you really are a marvel!

D




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Feb 14 03:32:48 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 19:32:48 -0800
Subject: Oppert Catalogue
In-Reply-To: <sc6a45bb.024@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227070544.23782.4319937199711064673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Allen W Thrasher wrote:

> LC seems to have this.  What pages do you want?

Allen, you really are a marvel!

D




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Feb 14 04:33:51 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 20:33:51 -0800
Subject: Burrow available again
Message-ID: <161227070548.23782.964834039978913879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Published in 1955 and long unavailable, Burrow's The Skt. Lang. is
available again:

The Sanskrit language / T. Burrow.
1st Indian ed.
Delhi : Motilal Banarsidass, 2001.

DW




From GRUENEN at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Thu Feb 14 08:12:17 2002
From: GRUENEN at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (gruenendahl)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 08:12:17 +0000
Subject: Oppert Catalogue
Message-ID: <161227070552.23782.2177544053338943971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A search in the Karlsruher Virtueller Katalog (Karlsruhe Virtual
Catalog)
http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/hylib/en/kvk.html (English version)
yields the following hits:


France:
Bibliotheque Nationale

Germany:
Goettingen
Tuebingen

Great Britain (COPAC):
Cambridge
London: Wellcome Library
Manchester

USA:
LoC


Best regards

Reinhold Gruenendahl


********************************************************************

Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien
(Dept. of Indology)

37070 Goettingen, Germany
Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83
Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61
gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de

FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm
In English:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm

GRETIL - Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts in Indian Languages
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Thu Feb 14 10:33:25 2002
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 11:33:25 +0100
Subject: (Fwd) The New Book on Jainism
Message-ID: <161227070554.23782.7366676511809710343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
my colleague Dr Jayandra Soni has asked me to forward the following message:

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From:                   J. Soni <soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de>
To:                     risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu
Subject:                The New Book on Jainism
Send reply to:          soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de
Date sent:              Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:08:04 +0100

List members may be interested to know that the new
book containing essays in Jainism, announced in October 2001
Vasantagauravam
Essays in Jainism
Felicitating Professor M. D. Vasantha Raj of Mysore
On the Occasion of his Seventy-fifth Birthday
Edited by Jayandra Soni
Mumbai: Vakils, Feffer and Simons Ltd.
Paperback (26 September, 2001), 224 pp.
ISBN: 81-87111-51-8

is now available outside India directly from me. The book costs
30 Euros (plus packing and postage outside Germany) and those
interested should contact me off the list (soni at mailer.uni-marburg.de)

The 15 essays in the book cover a wide range from philosophy to
ritual, literature and inscriptions. The cover page and full table of
contents can be seen here:

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~soni/vasantagauravam.html

Please forward this message to anyone else you think will be
interested.

J. Soni
University of Marburg, Germany
------- End of forwarded message -------?




From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Thu Feb 14 18:02:35 2002
From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 19:02:35 +0100
Subject: e-mail Patna Museum
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.44.0202132032360.2012-100000@Anat-lws119.anat.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070556.23782.3647427636218717469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

is it possible to contact the Patna Museum or any of its staff members
via e-mail? My search for a Website yielded no results.

thanks in advance

jn




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Fri Feb 15 05:40:38 2002
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 22:40:38 -0700
Subject: e-mail Patna Museum
Message-ID: <161227070559.23782.2345636009975135920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You might try sending an email to the American Inst. of Indian Studies
country director, Sri Pradeep Mahendiratta, in New Delhi. His email address
is on the AIIS website. Joanna Kirkpatrick




From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK  Fri Feb 15 09:08:38 2002
From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (John Brockington)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 09:08:38 +0000
Subject: hamsa
Message-ID: <161227070561.23782.164955247230139526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

Just a small contribution to this discussion in the form of a quote from my
_Righteous Rama_ (OUP, Delhi, 1985), p.95 + fn., discussing terms for fauna
in the Valmiki Ramayana:

...  All these names, ..., also appear occasionally in the second stage, in
which mention is also found of ... _raajahaMsa_ (either synonymous with
haMsa or more probably Phoenicopterus roseu Pallas, flamingo[15]) ... .

15  The latter identification makes much more appropriate Kaikeyii's
comparison of the hunchbacked Mantharaa with a _raajahaMsii_ (2.9.33).  On
the other hand, a fourth stage passage (3.1074*) pairs a _raajahaMsa_ and a
_haMsii_.


Yours

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies

Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies
7 Buccleuch Place
Edinburgh   EH8 9LW        U.K.

tel:  +131 650 4174
fax: +131 651 1258




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Fri Feb 15 14:23:19 2002
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 09:23:19 -0500
Subject: e-mail Patna Museum
In-Reply-To: <3C6C09CB.28818.B3692@localhost>
Message-ID: <161227070562.23782.5235195106538331159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As of last year the Patna Museum had not joined the technological
revolution.  Are you looking for photos of something there? We have
fairly major coverage of their holdings from two trips 1969-70 and
1984 or 5

John

>Dear List,
>
>is it possible to contact the Patna Museum or any of its staff members
>via e-mail? My search for a Website yielded no results.
>
>thanks in advance
>
>jn




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Feb 15 15:21:03 2002
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:21:03 -0500
Subject: Position: Harvard Divinity School, South Asia Religions
Message-ID: <161227070565.23782.8358027180951064411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Forwarded from:

H-ASIA
February 14, 2002

Position: Harvard Divinity School, South Asia Religions
************************************************************************
From: Diana Eck <dianaeck at fas.harvard.edu>

Harvard Divinity School
South Asian Religious Traditions

Harvard Divinity School announces a search for an assistant professor
in the field of South Asian Religious Traditions. We hope to appoint
a scholar who studies the Hindu, Jain, or Sikh traditions with a
concern for the methodological and theoretical issues involved in the
comparative study of the wide range of South Asian religions,
including Christianity. Advanced training and broad expertise in one
or more South Asian languages is essential. Candidates should be
familiar with forms of analysis that address race, gender, and social
location.

Applicants should be able to teach at both the doctoral and master's
level, to participate in the wider network of South Asian Studies at
Harvard, and to contribute to the Divinity School's ministerial
program. In addition to working with students in the Divinity School,
he or she will also teach undergraduate and graduate students who are
affiliated with the Faculty of Arts and Sciences through the
Committee on the Study of Religion.

Harvard University is an equal opportunity, affirmative-action
employer and encourages applications from and nominations of women
and/or ethnic minority candidates.

Letters of application or nomination, accompanied by a recent
curriculum vitae, letters of recommendation, a writing sample and/or
publications should be sent to Monica Beatty, Faculty Search
Coordinator, Harvard Divinity School, 45 Francis Avenue, Cambridge,
MA 02138. Attention: Diana L. Eck.  Review of applications will begin
March 1, 2002. Email: monica_beatty at harvard.edu or
dianaeck at fas.harvard.edu




From Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Sat Feb 16 14:58:00 2002
From: Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 02 15:58:00 +0100
Subject: 3rd Summer School in Spoken Sankrit
Message-ID: <161227070567.23782.960716663848848360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

SUMMER SCHOOL IN SPOKEN SANSKRIT 2002

The Department of Classical Indology offers you this unique opportunity to participate in a spoken Sanskrit course this summer under the tutelage of a Sanskrit native speaker. It is the aim of the course to enable students, particularly those pursuing Indological Studies, to overcome the perception of Sanskrit as a written language alone and, instead, to learn to pronounce, speak and recite it. The four-week course will make the study of Sanskrit a playful experience and demystify it.
 
Prerequisites: Elementary knowledge of Sanskrit and English
Organizer: Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels
Teacher: Shri Sadananda Das
Venue: South Asia Institute
Date: 02 - 27 September 2002
Fees: Euro 250,- (including teaching material)
Accomodation: can be arranged at the University Student Hostel

Registration: until 15.05.2002
by e-mail or letter to:
The Sekretariat, Dept. of Classical Indology,
South Asia Institute, Im Neuenheimer Feld 330,
69120 Heidelberg, Germany
Minimum number of participants is 10; Maximum number of participants is 15.

After confirmation please pay by cheque to the above address or by bank transfer to following account:
Universit?t Heidelberg
21911 Sparkasse Heidelberg BLZ 672 500 20
Reference: Sanskrit Summer School Sachkonto 54034 Kostenstelle 97028000

For further information please contact:
Christoph Emmrich
Tel. 06221/54-6303
Fax: 06221/54-6338
christoph.emmrich at urz.uni-heidelberg.de




From dean_anderson at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 17 01:20:45 2002
From: dean_anderson at YAHOO.COM (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 02 20:20:45 -0500
Subject: Chakravarty
Message-ID: <161227070570.23782.5422587904086914083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I know several Chakravarty's who are Brahmins.

Dean Anderson, PhD

----- Original Message -----
From: "hans henrich hock" <hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:21 AM
Subject: Chakravarty


> Dear All,
>
> Does anybody know whether Chakravarty, or any of its spelling and
> pronunciation variants, is ever used as a name by brahmins?
>
> Hans Henrich Hock
>




From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU  Sun Feb 17 17:21:03 2002
From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 12:21:03 -0500
Subject: Chakravarty
Message-ID: <161227070572.23782.3300108772505571064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The noted Gayatri Spivak Chakravarti regrets in a recent New York Times
profile that she was born a Brahmin: so Chakravartis must be all Brahmins.
But she also consoles herself, and presumably her following, that as a
Chakravarti she is of an "inferior cast".  There is no explanation for
inferiority, however; nor is it clear if other Chakravartis would share her
pride of inferiority.

T. P. Mahadevan




-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Anderson
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Sent: 2/16/02 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: Chakravarty

I know several Chakravarty's who are Brahmins.

Dean Anderson, PhD

----- Original Message -----
From: "hans henrich hock" <hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:21 AM
Subject: Chakravarty


> Dear All,
>
> Does anybody know whether Chakravarty, or any of its spelling and
> pronunciation variants, is ever used as a name by brahmins?
>
> Hans Henrich Hock
>




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Feb 17 23:20:56 2002
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 15:20:56 -0800
Subject: Chakravarty
In-Reply-To: <3C7024DB.1159.EE8CE@localhost>
Message-ID: <161227070577.23782.586838272658808205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to the Tamil Lexicon, Tamil Nayanar (cf. Malayam Nairs, Telugu
Naidus, all from nii, "lead"), are "Title of certain castes such as Cainar
(Jains), KaikkooLar, UTaiyar, and a section of VeeLaaLar."  These are all
extremely high castes -- indeed, on the basis of privilege, power, wealth,
and influence (and, often, even education), one could make a persuasive
argument that they are (and always have been) significantly higher than most
Brahmins.  Consulting only Sanskrit texts and speaking only (I stress only)
with Brahmins are activities that are fraught with peril -- they give a very
strange and inaccurate picture of South India (and, I suspect, North India
as well).  It is good to remember that 2-3% of South Indians are Brahmins
and that over 90% of South Indians are non-vegetarians.  Chakravarti is also
a name found among Tamil Brahmins.  George Hart

On 2/17/02 12:47 PM, "Robert Zydenbos" <zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> wrote:

> Am 17 Feb 2002 um 12:21 schrieb Mahadevan, Thennilapuram:
> 
>> The noted Gayatri Spivak Chakravarti regrets in a recent New York Times
>> profile that she was born a Brahmin: so Chakravartis must be all Brahmins.
> 
> This generalisation is not correct. In Bengal and Assam there are many
> brahmins named Chakravarti / Chakrabarti / Chakraborti; but on the other
> hand there was a famous Jaina scholar from Tamilnadu a few decades ago
> named A. Chakravarti, and he belonged to the Nayanar caste, i.e., very 'low'
> according to brahmins.
> 
> Robert Zydenbos
> Universit?t M?nchen
> 




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Feb 18 02:46:48 2002
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 18:46:48 -0800
Subject: Chakravarty
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0202180043100.19793-100000@socrates-b.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070581.23782.10177452684561420334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Well, let's see.  Virtually no one in Bengal is a vegetarian by tradition.
In South India, the traditional vegetarians are Brahmins and a very few of
the other high castes -- certainly under 10%.  I don't know who K T Achaya's
(K. T. Acharya?) is -- but it sounds as if he is a Brahmin.  Perceptions
vary according to one's group -- I have a Tamil Brahmin friend who is quite
convinced that 25% of the Tamil population is Brahmin -- just because he
sees mostly Brahmins.  He is a quite honest, decent man -- and this
impression of his is not based on any kind of prejudice, just his own
experience, which, of course, is misleading.  Surely, there is no part of
India that is more than 20% vegetarian.  I'm not sure about Gujarat -- not
long ago, a Gujarati told me that most people (not the Patels and Brahmins)
do eat meat.  In any event, Dalits aren't vegetarians, and most middle
castes are not.  That, together with the Muslims, surely makes up 80% of the
Indian population.  My point is just that, as India is still a highly
cellular society, most people see it from their own particular perspective.
One has to be quite careful with testimony from a particular group --
whether Brahmins or Dalits or anyone else -- as they tend to reflect the
views, prejudices, and convictions of the cell to which they belong.  I do
certainly agree that most non-vegetarians eat meat rarely.  But it should be
pointed out that many groups eat all sorts of things -- termites, a kind of
vegetarian bat, blood fried with masala and the like in Tamil Nadu.  Some
dalits apparently eat rats.  Hardly surprising for semi-marginal groups that
have trouble getting enough protein.  The Sangam poems are full of
descriptions of various kinds of meat, including termites.  They are
actually detailed enough that one could almost recreate the dishes (if one
wished).  I don't suppose we want to get into whether Rama eats meat in the
Valmiki Ramayana....  George Hart

On 2/17/02 4:48 PM, "Dominik Wujastyk" <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, George Hart wrote:
>
>> and that over 90% of South Indians are non-vegetarians.  Chakravarti is also
>
>> From memory, K T Achaya's book "Indian food : a historical companion" says
> that 50% of the population of India is vegetarian at the present time.
> So I think more than 10% of S. Indians must be vegetarian.  Perhaps it's
> hard to judge precisely.  I once asked my Kannadiga driver whether he was
> vegetarian: "Yes, completely vegetarian.  Except on Sundays when my wife
> cooks mutton."
>
> DW
>




From zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE  Sun Feb 17 20:47:07 2002
From: zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 21:47:07 +0100
Subject: Chakravarty
In-Reply-To: <CB8422FFBC65D51191C90060945777794391D8@locke.howard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070574.23782.9013157974486432413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 17 Feb 2002 um 12:21 schrieb Mahadevan, Thennilapuram:

> The noted Gayatri Spivak Chakravarti regrets in a recent New York Times
> profile that she was born a Brahmin: so Chakravartis must be all Brahmins.

This generalisation is not correct. In Bengal and Assam there are many
brahmins named Chakravarti / Chakrabarti / Chakraborti; but on the other
hand there was a famous Jaina scholar from Tamilnadu a few decades ago
named A. Chakravarti, and he belonged to the Nayanar caste, i.e., very 'low'
according to brahmins.

Robert Zydenbos
Universit?t M?nchen




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Feb 18 00:48:45 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 02 00:48:45 +0000
Subject: Chakravarty
In-Reply-To: <B8957AD8.1CBC%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070579.23782.15772527626442174571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, George Hart wrote:

> and that over 90% of South Indians are non-vegetarians.  Chakravarti is also

>?From memory, K T Achaya's book "Indian food : a historical companion" says
that 50% of the population of India is vegetarian at the present time.
So I think more than 10% of S. Indians must be vegetarian.  Perhaps it's
hard to judge precisely.  I once asked my Kannadiga driver whether he was
vegetarian: "Yes, completely vegetarian.  Except on Sundays when my wife
cooks mutton."

DW




From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Mon Feb 18 22:17:49 2002
From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 02 14:17:49 -0800
Subject: Chakravarty
In-Reply-To: <CB8422FFBC65D51191C90060945777794391D8@locke.howard.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070584.23782.15707208960873351893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 17-02-2002 09:21, "Mahadevan, Thennilapuram" <tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU>
wrote:

>  she [= Gayatri Spivak Chakravarti] also consoles herself, and presumably her
following, that as a
> Chakravarti she is of an "inferior cast".  There is no explanation for
> inferiority, however; nor is it clear if other Chakravartis would share her
> pride of inferiority.

According to my understanding, Bhattacharyas are frequently considered to be
superior Brahmins in Bengal, for such reasons as: (a) maintaining a greater
purity of their person through not eating outside their household or through
eating only the food they themselves prepare, (b) stronger association with
Brahmanical learning, especially after the rise of Nava-dviipa as a centre
of learning.

As I have not read the relevant publication of Ms. GSC, I cannot be sure,
but I would not rule out the possibility that her quoted remark contained
sarcasm.

On 17-02-2002 12:47, "Robert Zydenbos" <zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> wrote:

> on the other
> hand there was a famous Jaina scholar from Tamilnadu a few decades ago
> named A. Chakravarti, and he belonged to the Nayanar caste, i.e., very 'low'
> according to brahmins.

Let us recall that Chakravarty is originally a title, essentially coming to
mean 'reigning personality (in a given field),' an old Indian equivalent of
"champion" or "grandmaster." It is unlike the last names that are derived
from place names, gotra names, profession names etc.

ashok aklujkar




From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU  Tue Feb 19 19:47:28 2002
From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 14:47:28 -0500
Subject: Nayanars (was: Chakravarty)
Message-ID: <161227070594.23782.9822183134482436992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Such a comfort to know that Brahmins get their comeuppance, and deservedly
so.
Mahadevan
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Zydenbos
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Sent: 2/19/02 2:02 PM
Subject: Nayanars (was: Chakravarty)

Op maandag 18 februari 2002 00:20, schreef George Hart:

> According to the Tamil Lexicon, Tamil Nayanar (cf. Malayam Nairs,
> Telugu Naidus, all from nii, "lead"), are "Title of certain castes
> such as Cainar (Jains), KaikkooLar, UTaiyar, and a section of
> VeeLaaLar."  These are all extremely high castes -- [...]
> Consulting only Sanskrit texts and speaking only (I stress only) with
> Brahmins are activities that are fraught with peril -- they give a
> very strange and inaccurate picture of South India (and, I suspect,
> North India as well).  [...]

I agree completely.

One of my Tamil teachers was a Nayanar, and he described the caste as 
"as low as one can be without becoming an untouchable". In this he was 
reproducing (with a bitter mien and tone of voice) what brahmins had 
wanted him to believe. But a Jaina Nayanar will laugh at a brahmin who 
tells him that he is 'low'.

The question of just who is 'high' and 'low' often remains open, esp. 
in South India. E.g., Brahmins in Karnataka look down upon Virasaivas, 
but the latter are quite capable of doing exactly the same in return, 
just like Jainas.

Robert Zydenbos
Universit?t M?nchen




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Feb 19 22:53:24 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 14:53:24 -0800
Subject: SOCIETY FOR SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES: POST-DOCTORAL RESEARCH              FELLOWSHIPS
Message-ID: <161227070587.23782.8039403833660086499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:02:49 +0000
From: Ulrich Pagel <up1 at soas.ac.uk>

SOCIETY FOR SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES
POST-DOCTORAL RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS

The Society for South Asian Studies (British Academy) seeks to
appoint two post-doctoral Research Fellows, each for a period of up
to two years, with effect from September 2002, to undertake and
complete research projects in any field of the arts, humanities and
social sciences of South Asia.

In each case the research will be undertaken in an appropriate
institution; i.e. a university department, museum or learned society
within the United Kingdom, with a specialist interest in the region.
It is the responsibility of the applicants to approach such an
institution and secure in writing an agreement from them to be host
to their project, to manage the grant, and to provide such resources
(office space, administrative support, etc.) as may be required. In
addition to pursuing their research, the Fellows will be expected to
participate in the activities of the institution (e.g. through
teaching or curatorial work). Preference will be given to
applications which make a positive and desired contribution to the
work of the institution, for example by focussing the research on
part of the collections (in the case of a museum), or complementing
research already in progress. Please note that applications cannot be
made by people already in a tenure-track or permanent post at such an
institution: the intention is to strengthen the work of the
department, museum or society through the addition of a team member
involved in a research project.

The topics and nature of the research project is for the applicant to
decide, but it should include a very significant component of
field-work or study in one of the countries of South Asia. This might
be independent site study, or research in libraries or archives, or
both. The Fellows should also be prepared to give lectures on their
research in appropriate branches of the British Council and in
research institutes in South Asia. The Society may undertake to
support the cost of international travel, but any additional cost for
field-work must be met either from the stipend or from further
applications, either to the Society or to other grant-giving bodies
(including the institutions in which their research is housed).

Applications
Candidates should normally be aged 35 or less, and must have
completed a PhD degree before 1 September 2002. Candidates still
registered for a higher degree at that date will be disqualified.

The absolute deadline for receipt of applications and supporting
material is 1 June 2002. Candidates should send applications to: Dr M
Willis, Chairman of the Society for South Asian Studies, Department
of Oriental Antiquities, The British Museum, London WC1B 3DG.

There are no application form. Applications should include:

1.	A detailed description of the proposed research, setting out
its aims and methods, and plans for publication. This statement
should also indicate how the project related to the work of the
proposed host institution (not to exceed 2,000 words).

2.	A curriculum vitae giving details of education, previous
research and publications.

3.	A letter from an appropriate authority in the proposed host
institution undertaking to manage the grant and provide any necessary
resources. A description of what resources (office space, computer
support, etc) the host institution is willing to provide should be
included in this letter.

4.	Letters of reference from two senior scholars familiar with
the candidate's research, to be sent directly to the Chairman of the
Society, to reach him by the deadline.

The Society reserves the right to make only one appointment, or in
the absence of satisfactory applications, to make no appointments in
the current year.

Salary: in the region of ?16,000-?18,000 per annum

Special instructions for applicants outside United Kingdom.
Applications are invited from citizens of all countries. For
information regarding universities, museums and learned societies in
the UK, potential applicants are directed to the appropriate British
Council reference library in their country of residence. The Officers
of the Society for South Asian Studies regret that due to a shortage
of staff they are unfortunately unable to suggest affiliations or
help in establishing them. Such arrangements should be made directly
with the appropriate university, learned society or museum in the UK.
-- 




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Feb 19 23:23:12 2002
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 15:23:12 -0800
Subject: Chakravarty
In-Reply-To: <B895AB18.1CC0%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070590.23782.8395496988378134759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 17 Feb 2002, George Hart wrote:

> Well, let's see.  Virtually no one in Bengal is a vegetarian by tradition.
[...]
> Valmiki Ramayana....  George Hart

The reason I cited Achaya (sic) is that his book is a careful piece of
historical writing, not based on subjective impressions.  It really is an
excellent and enjoyable book, which I recommend.

D




From zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE  Tue Feb 19 19:02:11 2002
From: zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 20:02:11 +0100
Subject: Nayanars (was: Chakravarty)
In-Reply-To: <B8957AD8.1CBC%ghart@socrates.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070592.23782.17358765509755198024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Op maandag 18 februari 2002 00:20, schreef George Hart:

> According to the Tamil Lexicon, Tamil Nayanar (cf. Malayam Nairs,
> Telugu Naidus, all from nii, "lead"), are "Title of certain castes
> such as Cainar (Jains), KaikkooLar, UTaiyar, and a section of
> VeeLaaLar."  These are all extremely high castes -- [...]
> Consulting only Sanskrit texts and speaking only (I stress only) with
> Brahmins are activities that are fraught with peril -- they give a
> very strange and inaccurate picture of South India (and, I suspect,
> North India as well).  [...]

I agree completely.

One of my Tamil teachers was a Nayanar, and he described the caste as 
"as low as one can be without becoming an untouchable". In this he was 
reproducing (with a bitter mien and tone of voice) what brahmins had 
wanted him to believe. But a Jaina Nayanar will laugh at a brahmin who 
tells him that he is 'low'.

The question of just who is 'high' and 'low' often remains open, esp. 
in South India. E.g., Brahmins in Karnataka look down upon Virasaivas, 
but the latter are quite capable of doing exactly the same in return, 
just like Jainas.

Robert Zydenbos
Universit?t M?nchen




From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Wed Feb 20 21:21:21 2002
From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 02 13:21:21 -0800
Subject: Volume in Italian -- in memory of W. Halbfass
Message-ID: <161227070596.23782.2305567317844858902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have been requested by Mr. Federico Squarcini to draw your attention to
the following publication. Sorry for the cross-postings.

A volume dedicated to the memory of Prof. Wilhelm Halbfass

Verso l'India, Oltre l'India. Scritti e ricerche sulle tradizioni
intellettuali sudasiatiche, Milano, Mimesis 2002 (pp. 372: ISBN
88-8483-061-3: Price 23 Euro).

Edited by Federico Squarcini, the volume consists of Italian translations of
more than 20 selected articles by eminent scholars on Southasian themes.

Table of contents:

Federico Squarcini
Introduzione. Andare verso, andare oltre.

Helga Halbfass
Dedicato a Wilhelm Halbfass.

Patrick Olivelle
Ricordando la figura di Wilhelm Halbfass.

1. Prima parte: verso l'India.
1.1. Ripensare e decostruire l'immagine 'India'.

Barbara A. Holdrege
Oltre l'ottica europea: lo studio comparativo come antidoto all'egemonia.

Brian K. Smith
Mettere in discussione l'autorit?: costruzioni e decostruzioni
dell'induismo.

Sheldon Pollock
Dalla storia letteraria alla cultura letteraria nella storia.

Romila Thapar
La ricerca di una tradizione storica: l'India antica.

Saverio Marchignoli
Che cos'? lo yoga? Traduzione ed egemonia alle origini dell'indologia
tedesca.

1.2. Rivedere la categoria 'filosofia' alla luce delle tradizioni
intellettuali sudasiatiche.

Wilhelm Halbfass
Darsana, Anviksiki e filosofia.

Johannes Bronkhorst
Perch? esiste la filosofia in India?

Jan E.M. Houben
Filosofia e filologia tra Oriente e Occidente. Appello per la salvaguardia
dell'ideodiversit?.

Jitendra Nath Mohanty
La razionalit? pratica nel pensiero indiano.

1.3. Ricerche e approfondimenti in seno a peculiari tradizioni
intellettuali.

Vincenzo Vergiani
La speculazione linguistica indiana: dalla grammatica alla filosofia del
linguaggio.

Ashok Aklujkar
Il punto di vista epistemologico di Bhartrhari.

George Cardona
Panini e i paniniya su che cosa ? o non ? possibile.

Federico Squarcini
Pluralismo, dissidenza e tradizione. Ripensando il ruolo del dissenso nelle
antichit? sudasiatiche.

Eli Franco
Lo scetticismo di Jayarasi. Discutendo in merito ai criteri di verit?.

2. Seconda parte: oltre l'India.
2.1. La prospettiva comparatista.

Francis Clooney
La prassi della teologia comparata. Con riferimento ad alcune recenti
pubblicazioni.

Giorgio Renato Franci
La bhakti induistica tra storia e mistica comparata. Alcuni temi e
questioni.

Bina Gupta
L'Uno e il Molteplice.

2.2. Comparare e raffrontare le antichit? euroasiatiche.

Boris Oguib?nine
Alcune considerazioni sui vari modi di ricostruire la cultura indoeuropea.

Edwin F. Bryant
Il dibattito sulle origini della civilt? indiana.

Klaus Karttunen
L'India nella mitologia greco-romana.

Federico De Romanis
Immagini dell'India nell'Egitto romano. Note in margine al Charition.

Those interested in buying copies of the volume can send their requests,
indicating in the subject *Verso L'india*, to the following e-address:
federico.squarcini at tin.it 




From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Feb 21 08:08:18 2002
From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 02 10:08:18 +0200
Subject: Oriya word: 'kalasaa' or 'ka.lasaa'
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0111091357240.13075-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070599.23782.834076155765497315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

During a recent tour in search for mss. among the Atharvavedins of Orissa, I
came across a ms. for AVP kaa.n.das 1-5 which had a note written on it, by
the former owner/user which said merely "kalasaa" (or, if my notes are
incorrect, perhaps with the retroflex lateral: "ka.lasaa", in any case with
long final -aa, thus not the same as (semi)tatsama ka.lasa 'jar'). Neither
of the two Oriya dictionaries available to me (NABA ABHIDHAANA and TARU.NA
;SABDAKO.SA) has a lemma "kalasaa".
    Still, several Atharvavedic priests claimed to know the word (but they
were not able to give a satisfactory explanation). I suspect this may be a
technical term having to do with some aspect of the ms.-transmission of the
AVP.
    If anyone has access to the PUUR.NACANDRA O.RIAA BHAA.SAAKO.SA, and
could check whether ka(.)lasaa is mentioned there, or if anyone can think of
possible cognates in related languages, I would be very grateful.

I may add: a (perhaps) similar case of a technical terms used by
Atharvavedic priests not registered in any of the Oriya dictionaries is
kaa.rhe.nii, obviously derived from kaa.rhibaa 'to extract', a term used for
the full recitation of repeated text given only once in full, and thereafter
in abbreviation in the mss.


-- Arlo Griffiths

CNWS / Instituut Kern
Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA  Leiden
the Netherlands




From pf at CIX.CO.UK  Thu Feb 21 10:48:00 2002
From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (=?utf-8?Q?Fl=C3=BCgel?=)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 02 10:48:00 +0000
Subject: Oriya word: 'kalasaa' or 'ka.lasaa'
In-Reply-To: <B89A7792.2409%A.Griffiths@let.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <161227070602.23782.11194900339443779883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you for all your heroic efforts!

Peter




From pf at CIX.CO.UK  Thu Feb 21 12:00:00 2002
From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (=?utf-8?Q?Fl=C3=BCgel?=)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 02 12:00:00 +0000
Subject: Oriya word: 'kalasaa' or 'ka.lasaa'
In-Reply-To: <memo.20020221104803.31451B@pf.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070604.23782.8180418813004316688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry, for accidentally sending private mail to the list.

Peter




From dean_anderson at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 22 20:25:57 2002
From: dean_anderson at YAHOO.COM (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 02 15:25:57 -0500
Subject: Kh instead of S in Yajur Veda
Message-ID: <161227070606.23782.16504770768606292473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav Deshpande mentions in "Genesis of Rgvedic Retroflexion..." that some
branches of Yajur Veda show 'kh' where the retroflex 's' is normally
expected. Where is this found? Is is associated with a particular Shakha or
geographical location? Are there any other aspects of the vedic literature
that show this?

Dean Anderson, PhD




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Sun Feb 24 18:13:17 2002
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 02 13:13:17 -0500
Subject: Kh instead of S in Yajur Veda
In-Reply-To: <002201c1bbdf$271e8fe0$2202a8c0@WorkGroup>
Message-ID: <161227070608.23782.2202116714457308879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This happens in the Zukla Yajurveda recitation, where the RV line
sahasraziir.sa.h puru.sa.h is pronounced as ...ziirkha.h purukha.h.  I am
responding to this email away from home, and don't have access to my
books, but if I remember correctly, the Zukla-YV Praatizaakhya deals with
this feature.
                              Madhav Deshpande

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Dean Anderson wrote:

> Madhav Deshpande mentions in "Genesis of Rgvedic Retroflexion..." that some
> branches of Yajur Veda show 'kh' where the retroflex 's' is normally
> expected. Where is this found? Is is associated with a particular Shakha or
> geographical location? Are there any other aspects of the vedic literature
> that show this?
>
> Dean Anderson, PhD
>




From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 25 08:17:33 2002
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 02 00:17:33 -0800
Subject: Oppert Catalogue
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.44.0202191452440.1792-100000@Anat-lws119.anat.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227070611.23782.15933894540681053966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to thank everyone who has replied to me
privately and on the list, regarding the Oppert
Catalogue.

               Marina Orelskaya



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From mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Feb 28 14:59:45 2002
From: mkapstei at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 02 08:59:45 -0600
Subject: sad news
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0201281834550.25992-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <161227070613.23782.15604061114091296576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With profound regrets, I forward the following
announcement from the Dean's Office of the
University of Chicago Humanities
Division
to the subscribers to the Indology list.
Matthew Kapstein

>         It is my sad duty to inform you that Norman Cutler, Chair and
> Associate Professor of South Asian Languages and Civilizations and in
the
> College, died in the night of February 26-27, presumably from
> complications of kidney disease.  We will greatly miss his gentle
spirit,
> his dedication to this Division and University, and his exemplary
> devotion to his chosen discipline and his fortunate students of Tamil.
> Please join me in a moment of silent reflection to honor his memory.