From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Oct  1 10:37:50 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 06:37:50 -0400
Subject: NDFL; was "Central Asian Linguists Wanted"
In-Reply-To: <f05001907b7ddeab59685@[130.225.203.70]>
Message-ID: <161227069779.23782.11791027769546445712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As Christian points out, the FLAS program continues to function.  However,
even under this program, the universities are generally trying to find
languages which will have a reasonable enrollment.  That means it is easier
to teach languages like Hindi/Urdu, but it is difficult to sustain
languages like Pashtu.  That is why it has been difficult to find
institutions teaching Pashtu.  At the University of Michigan, Hindi/Urdu
teaching costs are covered through reasonably high enrollments, but the
teaching costs for Punjabi are covered through an endowment from the Sikh
community, while the teaching costs for Tamil are covered in part from a
contribution from the local Tamil Sangam.  But it has not been possible for
us to expand to include other languages from South Asia.


Madhav Deshpande

--On Monday, October 01, 2001, 11:46 AM +0200 "Christian K. Wedemeyer"
<wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK> wrote:

> NDFL was not "allowed to lapse."  It merely had its name changed to
> FLAS (Foreign Language and Area Studies), so as to camouflage its
> Cold War/Sputnik roots.
>
> Even as we speak, students continue to be funded by this program. .
> .and who knows?  Some of them may even be able to get jobs now!
>
> Best,
>
> Christian
>
>
>> What ever happened to all those graduate students whose PhDs were partly
>> subsidized by the National Defense Foreign Languages Act in the 60s?
>> All retired by now, or gone?  When was the NDFL program allowed to lapse?
>>
>> Joanna Kirkpatrick
>> =======================================
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dominik Wujastyk" <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
>> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:42 AM
>> Subject: Central Asian Linguists Wanted (fwd)
>>
>>
>>>  Hmm.  I wondered whether this would happen.  Interesting.
>>>
>>>  ---------- Forwarded message ----------



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Mon Oct  1 14:23:07 2001
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 09:23:07 -0500
Subject: NDFL; was "Central Asian Linguists Wanted"
In-Reply-To: <1190890922.1001918270@MMDESH>
Message-ID: <161227069781.23782.11371452698323050035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This, in fact, is the problem almost anywhere you go.  Perhaps there
is a chance that in the aftermath of these attacks, universities and
the federal government will put money into supporting languages that
won't attract huge enrollments are strategically important.  Will
they show the foresight to do so?

Hans Henrich Hock


>As Christian points out, the FLAS program continues to function.  However,
>even under this program, the universities are generally trying to find
>languages which will have a reasonable enrollment.  That means it is easier
>to teach languages like Hindi/Urdu, but it is difficult to sustain
>languages like Pashtu.  That is why it has been difficult to find
>institutions teaching Pashtu.  At the University of Michigan, Hindi/Urdu
>teaching costs are covered through reasonably high enrollments, but the
>teaching costs for Punjabi are covered through an endowment from the Sikh
>community, while the teaching costs for Tamil are covered in part from a
>contribution from the local Tamil Sangam.  But it has not been possible for
>us to expand to include other languages from South Asia.
>
>
>Madhav Deshpande
>
>--On Monday, October 01, 2001, 11:46 AM +0200 "Christian K. Wedemeyer"
><wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK> wrote:
>
> > NDFL was not "allowed to lapse."  It merely had its name changed to
> > FLAS (Foreign Language and Area Studies), so as to camouflage its
> > Cold War/Sputnik roots.
> >
> > Even as we speak, students continue to be funded by this program. .
> > .and who knows?  Some of them may even be able to get jobs now!
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Christian
> >
> >
> >> What ever happened to all those graduate students whose PhDs were partly
> >> subsidized by the National Defense Foreign Languages Act in the 60s?
> >> All retired by now, or gone?  When was the NDFL program allowed to lapse?
> >>
> >> Joanna Kirkpatrick
> >> =======================================
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dominik Wujastyk" <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
> >> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:42 AM
> >> Subject: Central Asian Linguists Wanted (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >>>  Hmm.  I wondered whether this would happen.  Interesting.
> >>>
> >>>  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
>
>
>***************************************************************
>Madhav M. Deshpande
>Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
>Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
>3070 Frieze Building
>The University of Michigan
>Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
>***************************************************************




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Mon Oct  1 15:55:58 2001
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 09:55:58 -0600
Subject: NDFL; was "Central Asian Linguists Wanted"
Message-ID: <161227069783.23782.478774941942689793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What about the Monterrey School languages set-up? Isn't that government
funded? they must be working over time now..............Joanna K
=========================================================

> This, in fact, is the problem almost anywhere you go.  Perhaps there
> is a chance that in the aftermath of these attacks, universities and
> the federal government will put money into supporting languages that
> won't attract huge enrollments are strategically important.  Will
> they show the foresight to do so?
>
> Hans Henrich Hock




From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK  Mon Oct  1 09:46:56 2001
From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 11:46:56 +0200
Subject: NDFL; was "Central Asian Linguists Wanted"
Message-ID: <161227069777.23782.16563020470709971647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NDFL was not "allowed to lapse."  It merely had its name changed to
FLAS (Foreign Language and Area Studies), so as to camouflage its
Cold War/Sputnik roots.

Even as we speak, students continue to be funded by this program. .
.and who knows?  Some of them may even be able to get jobs now!

Best,

Christian


>What ever happened to all those graduate students whose PhDs were partly
>subsidized by the National Defense Foreign Languages Act in the 60s?
>All retired by now, or gone?  When was the NDFL program allowed to lapse?
>
>Joanna Kirkpatrick
>=======================================
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dominik Wujastyk" <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
>Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:42 AM
>Subject: Central Asian Linguists Wanted (fwd)
>
>
>>  Hmm.  I wondered whether this would happen.  Interesting.
>>
>>  ---------- Forwarded message ----------




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Oct  1 20:14:58 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 16:14:58 -0400
Subject: experience in buying Indian manuscripts
Message-ID: <161227069787.23782.2525342739929607348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If any person or institution has any recent experience in buying
significant number of Indian manuscripts, either Devanagari or Tamil,
from sources outside the subcontinent, could they please contact me
off the list?  I need guidance with reference to what are reasonable
values for tax deductions.  It is primarily a question of
unillustrated mss, not of illustrated ones that would be in the usual
art market.

Thanks,

Allen Thrasher

Library of Congress




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Oct  1 17:04:14 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 01 18:04:14 +0100
Subject: Sri Sankaracarya Gurukul Samskrta Pattrika
Message-ID: <161227069785.23782.15918010488576743202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sheldon Pollock is searching for a rare journal called Sri Sankaracarya
Gurukul Samskrta Pattrika, published by the Vani Vilas Press in (I think)
the 1920/30s.

Does anyone know the location of a copy of this publication?

Best,
Dominik




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Oct  2 16:46:02 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 01 17:46:02 +0100
Subject: Ed Bryant's book now available
Message-ID: <161227069790.23782.12781168399909057298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 20:32:41 -0400
From: Edwin F. Bryant <edbryant at rci.rutgers.edu>
To: Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>


 Dear Dominik,

Hope all is well with you.  I have recently resubscribed to Indology,
after removing myself from all lists over the summer so as to complete
the translation of the Bh.P. 10th book, which is now complete (although
editing is proving to be a formidable task).

Anyway, my book: The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture: The
Indo-Aryan Migration Debate is finally available.  It was published by
OUP, ISBN  0-19-513777-9

I don't know what the policy of the reconfigured list is wrt members
informing colleagues of their newly-published work is, and everyone may be
completely exasperated with the I-A topic (I can assure you that I am),
but I have had a lot of requests for info about the book.  If you think
this info may be of interest to the list, and posting such info is in line
with the new Indology regs, would you care to forward the info to the
members?  I, of course, can do so (even though I feel a bit awkward
promoting my own work), but I didn't want to do so without your approval.

[...]

Best wishes,  Edwin Bryant




From A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Oct  3 10:39:07 2001
From: A.Griffiths at LET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 01 12:39:07 +0200
Subject: snakes and wells
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.33.0109141558360.21555-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069792.23782.11258395851759788631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear fellow Indologists,

Can anyone confirm for me that in (ancient, Vedic) India, (harmful) snakes
were thought to live in or near water-wells? Can anyone provide me with
references?

Thank you very much,

-- Arlo Griffiths

CNWS / Instituut Kern
Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA  Leiden
the Netherlands


***The immediate cause for this query is a passage from the AV (Paipp.),
6.14.5, where snakes belonging to the jungle and belonging to arma's
(ara.nyeya.m caarm[i]yeya.m) are made to vanish. I would like to take up
K.T. Schmidt's suggestion ('Zu einigen Archaismen in Flexion und Wortschatz
des Tocharischen', in W. Meid (ed.) Studien zum Indogermanischen Wortschatz,
Innsbruck [1987], 287-300), adopted also by Mayrhofer, that Vedic ;arma-
means 'well, source' rather than 'abandoned resting place' as proposed by
Rau in 1976 and maintained in 1983.
    Although Schmidt does not mention this, taking Vedic ;arma- as
'Wasserwort' would also finally solve the problem posed by the mantra VS
30.11/TB 3.4.9.1 ;armebho hastip;am  "To armaa.h [one should consecrate] a
mahout" (unconvincingly Falk, ZDMG 1981, p. 169).***




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Oct  3 13:45:11 2001
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 01 14:45:11 +0100
Subject: snakes and wells
In-Reply-To: <B7E0B76B.1973%A.Griffiths@let.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <161227069794.23782.3898816405366875315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Arlo Griffith,

it is well known that the half-divine nAgas (poisonous snakes, cobra
snakes) are closely associated with water and with sacred places along
rivers; see Charles Autran, L'epopee indoue, Paris 1946, ch. III and IV;
you might also check Jean Philippe Vogel, Indian serpent lore, the nAgas in
Hindu legend and art, London 1926.
As far as snakes in water-wells are concerned, what comes immediately to my
mind is the famous parable of the Man in the Well, Mahabharata 11.5-6. Here
a large nAga (vs. 5.13, additional line in some mss.: mahAnAgam apazyata;
vs. 5.20 kUpAdhastAc ca nAgena; vs. 6.7 yas tatra vasate 'dhastAn mahAhiH)
is imagined at the bottom of the well (5.10 udApAna, otherwise kUpa).
But this is, of course, much later than your AV passage.

Regards,

Georg v. Simson

>Dear fellow Indologists,
>
>Can anyone confirm for me that in (ancient, Vedic) India, (harmful) snakes
>were thought to live in or near water-wells? Can anyone provide me with
>references?
>
>Thank you very much,
>
>-- Arlo Griffiths
>
>CNWS / Instituut Kern
>Universiteit Leiden
>Postbus 9515
>2300 RA  Leiden
>the Netherlands
>
>
>***The immediate cause for this query is a passage from the AV (Paipp.),
>6.14.5, where snakes belonging to the jungle and belonging to arma's
>(ara.nyeya.m caarm[i]yeya.m) are made to vanish. I would like to take up
>K.T. Schmidt's suggestion ('Zu einigen Archaismen in Flexion und Wortschatz
>des Tocharischen', in W. Meid (ed.) Studien zum Indogermanischen Wortschatz,
>Innsbruck [1987], 287-300), adopted also by Mayrhofer, that Vedic ;arma-
>means 'well, source' rather than 'abandoned resting place' as proposed by
>Rau in 1976 and maintained in 1983.
>    Although Schmidt does not mention this, taking Vedic ;arma- as
>'Wasserwort' would also finally solve the problem posed by the mantra VS
>30.11/TB 3.4.9.1 ;armebho hastip;am  "To armaa.h [one should consecrate] a
>mahout" (unconvincingly Falk, ZDMG 1981, p. 169).***




From per.kvarne at IKS.UIO.NO  Thu Oct  4 08:51:06 2001
From: per.kvarne at IKS.UIO.NO (=?utf-8?Q?Per_Kv=C3=A6rne?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 01 09:51:06 +0100
Subject: e-mail
Message-ID: <161227069796.23782.7815525486560322337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Wujastyk,

As I find myself less and less involved in Indology, kindly remove my
name from the address list.

Yours sincerely,

Per Kvaerne




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Thu Oct  4 16:50:51 2001
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 01 18:50:51 +0200
Subject: the role of colonies for British governance
Message-ID: <161227069798.23782.5728407025140461845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,

this is a relatively modern question pertaining to colonial history in
India: I recall having read, but not where, about the phenomenon that
British governance in colonies - India, in particular - played a crucial
role in establishing administrative and political practices on the British
isles themselves - contrary to common belief, it was not the case that
forms of administration which already existed in Britain were simply
exported to the colonies; rather, forms of administration which developed
in the colonies were later taken "back home". In other words, colonies
served as a kind of "testing ground" for administrative practices.

Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read this, nor am I sure that this
specific type of interaction between colonial and "home" governance was
postulated expressly with regards to administration. It might also have
been described within a wider framework of customs and social values.

I would appreciate any bibliographical references on this topic,

best regards,

Birgit Kellner
Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
Vienna University




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Fri Oct  5 09:34:11 2001
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 01 11:34:11 +0200
Subject: Vaadakalaadaa and paataku.n.tana
Message-ID: <161227069800.23782.6715934001013118539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In an astrological Sanskrit text I recently came upon two words that I
couldn't identify: vaadakalaadaa and paataku.n.tana. There is some
probability of their being medical terms. Does anyone know, or have any
suggestions?

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Oct  5 21:50:35 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 01 17:50:35 -0400
Subject: the role of colonies for British governance
Message-ID: <161227069802.23782.14779177965032807150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Birgit,

You might try signing on to H-Asia, which is for history (in the
widest sense, including current history and political science), and
posting this question there as well.  I vaguely recall that there are
some who think the pageantry the British adopted in India from the
Mughals heavily influenced royal pageantry at home.  This would be a
parallel case.  However that may be, you can find out how to get onto
H-Asia from its website http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~asia/

Allen

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Oct  8 09:55:11 2001
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 01 12:55:11 +0300
Subject: the role of colonies for British governance
Message-ID: <161227069804.23782.6890638128365643031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Birgit,

there must be some more special written about this, but in any case
Moorhouse in his book India Britannica emphasizes the role of the I.C.S.
as a sort of new creation later used as a model elsewhere, too.
According to Moorhouse the very word "civil servant" was coined in
British India.

All the best
Klaus


--
Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D.
Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Oct 10 18:23:21 2001
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 01 14:23:21 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Mahaasu=C3=B1=C3=B1avaadin?=
Message-ID: <161227069807.23782.17322150735841536293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Colleagues:

somewhere someone--in the back of my mind I think it might have been
Bechert--once remarked on the term in the Kathaavatthu cy (and
elsewhere?) which alternates in spelling Mahaasu??avaadin /
Mahaapu??av?din. Does anyone remember where this was discussed?

many thanks
--


Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Box 208287
Yale University
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Oct 11 20:21:39 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 01 16:21:39 -0400
Subject: Deussen, System des Vedanta, 2nd ed.
Message-ID: <161227069809.23782.16353570797632609116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A catalog offers the 2nd ed. (1906) of Paul Deussen's System Des
Vedanta.  The pagination is close to the original ed. of 1883 but not
identical.  Does anyone know offhand if the 2nd ed. was significantly
revised or expanded?

Thanks,

Allen Thrasher

Library of Congress




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Oct 12 17:52:21 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 01 13:52:21 -0400
Subject: Deussen, System des Vedanta, 2nd ed.
Message-ID: <161227069814.23782.9649836724777922690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks very much, Paul, for the information.

Allen




From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Fri Oct 12 16:08:50 2001
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 01 17:08:50 +0100
Subject: Deussen, System des Vedanta, 2nd ed.
In-Reply-To: <sbc5c68c.047@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227069811.23782.5000018891663061613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Allen W Thrasher wrote:

> A catalog offers the 2nd ed. (1906) of Paul Deussen's System Des
> Vedanta.  The pagination is close to the original ed. of 1883 but not
> identical.  Does anyone know offhand if the 2nd ed. was significantly
> revised or expanded?

Our library has the third ed. (Leipzig: Brockhaus, 1920), which is an
anastatic reprint of the 2nd ed. In the preface, Deussen says that he has
changed only a few things, a few corrections here and there and some
additions in the references. But he claims that the work remained
essentially the same (Roman pages ix-x).

All the best
Peter Wyzlic

--
Peter Wyzlic
Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn
Regina-Pacis-Weg 7
D-53113 Bonn




From somadeva at LYCOS.COM  Mon Oct 15 18:42:42 2001
From: somadeva at LYCOS.COM (somadeva vasudeva)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 01 11:42:42 -0700
Subject: Cok.sa, Cauk.sa
Message-ID: <161227069816.23782.13509354496400126639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list-members,

I am hoping someone might be able to explain the exact identity of the Cok.sas/Cauk.sas.

The existence of "aaryacok.sas" is attested already in  the copper-plate Grant of Bhulu.n.da III, year 50 (of Gupta era) in the list: paa"supataa aaryacok.saa.h devaprasaadakaa"s ca gandhaduupabalicarusatropayogaadi.suupayojamaanaas...

The  Abhinavabhaaratii  (GOS) vol.\ 2, 17.38 states that they are Ekaayanas of the Bhaagavata faith:  bhaagavatavi"se.saa ye ekaayana[aa] iti prasiddhaa.h, but   Bhagavadutpala ad B.rhatsa.mhitaa 86.43ab states that they are rogues: cok.saa du.s.taa iti prasiddhaa.h. Are these different groups of Cok.sas?


Somadeva Vasudeva
Wolfson College, Oxford


Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S.
http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp




From falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Tue Oct 16 14:34:39 2001
From: falk at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Harry Falk)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 01 16:34:39 +0200
Subject: Cok.sa, Cauk.sa
Message-ID: <161227069818.23782.10857769936002333108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

there might be a relationship with the title/place derivative (?)
cukhsa as it appears on the Taxila copper plate (Konow CII 2,1:28)
and on the Taxila silver vase of Jihonika (Konow: 82).
harry falk

somadeva vasudeva schrieb:
>
> Dear list-members,
>
> I am hoping someone might be able to explain the exact identity of the Cok.sas/Cauk.sas.
>
> The existence of "aaryacok.sas" is attested already in  the copper-plate Grant of Bhulu.n.da III, year 50 (of Gupta era) in the list: paa"supataa aaryacok.saa.h devaprasaadakaa"s ca gandhaduupabalicarusatropayogaadi.suupayojamaanaas...
>
> The  Abhinavabhaaratii  (GOS) vol.\ 2, 17.38 states that they are Ekaayanas of the Bhaagavata faith:  bhaagavatavi"se.saa ye ekaayana[aa] iti prasiddhaa.h, but   Bhagavadutpala ad B.rhatsa.mhitaa 86.43ab states that they are rogues: cok.saa du.s.taa iti prasiddhaa.h. Are these different groups of Cok.sas?
>
> Somadeva Vasudeva
> Wolfson College, Oxford
>
> Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S.
> http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Oct 18 10:10:02 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 01 11:10:02 +0100
Subject: York University Assistant Professor,              South Asians Religions and Cultures (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069820.23782.2359002183664429868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Location:       Canada

The Division of Humanities in the Faculty of Arts, York University,
invites applications for a tenure-stream position at the Assistant
Professor level in South Asian Religions and Cultures. Applicants
should have the appropriate scholarly strengths to conduct research in
South Asian religions and cultures within a broad interpretive
framework and to teach at the introductory and advanced levels in the
Division's interdisciplinary Foundations and upper-level courses. The
successful applicant will also be expected to teach in the Religious
Studies Programme. Duties may include teaching in the proposed graduate
Programme in the Humanities. Candidates should be actively engaged in a
program of scholarly research. A Ph. D. or equivalent is essential.


Salary depends upon qualifications and experience. The position, to
commence July 1, 2002, is subject to budgetary approval by the
University.


York University has an Affirmative Action Program with respect to its
faculty and librarian appointments. The designated groups are: women,
racial/visible minorities, persons with disabilities and aboriginal
peoples. Persons in these groups must self-identify in order to
participate in the Affirmative Action Program. The Division of
Humanities welcomes applications from persons in these groups. The
Affirmative Action Program can be found on York's website at
www.yorku.ca/acadjobs/index.htm or a copy can be obtained by calling
the affirmative action office at 416-736-5713. Canadian citizens and
permanent residents will be considered first for this position.


Applicants should send a letter of application, including a c.v., and
arrange for three confidential letters of recommendation to be sent no
later than<bold> January 7, 2002</bold> to:

Professor
Doug Freake, Chair

Division of Humanities

York University

Rm. 207 Vanier College

4700 Keele Street

North York, Ontario

CANADA, M3J 1P3




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Oct 22 11:19:18 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 01 12:19:18 +0100
Subject: Fs.Parpola (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069822.23782.18198257657372495674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:10:44 +0300
From: Klaus Karttunen <Klaus.Karttunen at Helsinki.Fi>


VidyArNavavandanam. Essays in Honour of Asko Parpola. Edited by Klaus
Karttunen and Petteri Koskikallio. 511 p. Studia Orientalia 94. Helsinki
2001. ISSN 0039-3282 ISBN 951-9380-52-3. Price 250 Finnish Marks.

Sold by:
Bookstore Tiedekirja
Kirkkokatu 14
FIN-00170 Helsinki, Finland
Tel +358 9 635 177
Fax +358 9 635 017
e-mail: tiedekirja at pp.kolumbus.fi
http://www.tsv.fi


CONTENTS
Preface (Klaus Karttunen)
Select Bibliography of Asko Parpola?s Publications (Petteri Koskikallio)
Tabula Gratulatoria

Bakker, Hans: DakSiNAmUrti
Bodewitz, Henk: The saMvargavidyA and its Context in Two SAmavedic Texts
Brockington, John: Indra in the Epics
Bronkhorst, Johannes: The Origin of MImAMsA as a School of Thought
Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi, Gabriela: Reflections of Hindu Mythology in Tamil Folktales
Elizarenkova, T. Y.: Contribution to the Functioning of dvA?r-/du?r- in
the Rgveda
Falk, Harry: Suicidal Self-Scorching in Ancient India
Fujii, Masato: The Brahman Priest in the History of Vedic Texts
Gail, Adalbert J.: AmoghapAza-Lokezvara in Orissa
Gerow, Edwin: Why the Fish Laughed, and Other Matters Relating to (the
Indian Indian Sense of) ?Humor?
H?meen-Anttila, Virpi: Back to ZunaHzepa: Remarks on the Gestation of
the Indian Literary Narrative
Handelman, Don: Cosmos Encrusted: Ziva, Andhaka, BhRGgin, and the
Emptying of Infinity
Hara, Minoru: A Note on the Sanskrit Verb pA-
Heesterman, J. C.: Gift, Marriage and the Denial of Reciprocity
Hiltebeitel, Alf: BhISma's sources
Houben, Jan E. M.: The Vedic horse-sacrifice and the changing use of the
term ahiMsA: An Early Insertion in TB 3.9.8?
Howard, Wayne: PrAcIna Kauthuma traditions of South India: Letters from
L. S. Rajagopalan , 1985?1988
Jamison, Stephanie: The Rigvedic SvayaMvara? Formulaic Evidence
Karttunen, Klaus: Studies in the GRhya Prayogas of the JaiminIya
SAmaveda 2. SthAlIpAka
Knipe, David M.: Balancing raudra and zAnti: Rage and Repose in States
of Possession
Koivulehto, Jorma: Zum fr?hen iranischen und indoiranischen
lexikalischen Einfluss auf das Finnisch-Ugrische
Mahadevan, Iravatham: Indus-like Symbols on Megalithic Pottery: New Evidence
Mylius, Klaus: Einige Aufgaben der Jinismus-Forschung zu Beginn des 3. Jahrtausends
Padoux, Andr?: mantra, devatA, ?mantradevatA?. Quelques observations sur
les mantras tantriques
Potts, Daniel: A ?Lost? Seal from Harappa in the Nicholson Museum
Sarianidi, V.: Indo-Iranian problem in the light of the latest
excavations in Margiana
Smith, Frederick M.: The Recent History of Vedic Ritual in Maharashtra
Smith, William: StrIrAjya: Indian Accounts of Kingdom of Women
Tikkanen, Bertil: Burushaski --skir ?Father-in-law? and --skus ?Mother-inlaw?
Vasilkov, Jaroslav: Indo-Iranian Vayu and Gogolean Viy: An Old
Hypothesis Revisited
Witzel, Michael: A First Link between the Rgvedic Panjab and
Mesopotamia: zimbala/zalmali, and GISgisimmar

--
Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D.
Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094




From lel at LEL.MSK.RU  Mon Oct 22 17:47:30 2001
From: lel at LEL.MSK.RU (Lielukhine D.N.)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 01 21:47:30 +0400
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227069824.23782.8188341382343658018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues !

Please, visit my new variant of epigraphy publication -
Early Kadamba Inscriptions, which for the first time I place on my page
http://indepigr.narod.ru/index1.htm  (later it will be publicated by
Oriental
Institute). Be sure, download new version of ttf-font before. All your
opinions (as about this publication, as about usualness of this type
publications), remarks, advices and recommendations will be
helpful and very interesting for me.
Here I place, too, english translations of 2 my articles, "Texts of
Political tradition and Early Kadamba inscriptions" and "Socio-political
structure of early society and state as it reflected in Sanskrit
inscriptions from Nepal", which can be interested for Indologists.


Lielukhine D.N.
Oriental institute, Dep. of History
Member secretary of "Epigraphy of the Orient"
e-mail: lel at lel.msk.ru




From tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU  Tue Oct 23 01:50:10 2001
From: tmahadevan at HOWARD.EDU (Mahadevan, Thennilapuram)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 01 21:50:10 -0400
Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India
Message-ID: <161227069826.23782.5204090781687869100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Professor Thompson:
Long ago you posted a message on padapATa in Avestan.  I wrote you for the
reference, and I know you sent it.  I am not able to find it just now, so if
you have a moment, will you kindly send it to me again?
Mahadevan

-----Original Message-----
From: George Thompson [mailto:GthomGt at CS.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 2:27 PM
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject: Re: Mnemonics in Ancient India


It is good to see that there is so much interest in this topic.

A couple of points:

First, the discussion began with Steve Farmer's comments re pre-modern
European mnemonics, which developed the use of the visual cue into very
elaborate 'memory palaces,'  from mnemonics in ancient India, which appear
to
be primarily a matter of strenuous rote memorization.  Though it is clear
that later, post-Vedic Vaidikas may have used mudrAs and something like
proto-maNDalas, it should be noted that there is no mention of these devices
in Vedic texts themselves.  Or perhaps I should say that there is no use of
these TERMS in Vedic.  Is there reference to such techniques [i.e., the use
of visual cues] using other terms?  By the way, both Malamoud [mentioned by
A. Sandness] and Staal himself have mentioned yet another device: that of
the
rather forceful, 'rhythmic' steering of the Veda-student's head back and
forth at the hand of the teacher.

Steve Farmer's point that the Vedic vikRtis may well be byproducts of rote
memorization of Vedic texts, instead of mnemonic techniques in the strict
sense, is interesting and deserves further consideration. As Staal has
repeatedly emphasized, these vikRtis function to prevent the unconscious
substitution of a synonym or an approximate homonym in the slot given to a
particular element in the transmitted text.  The obligation to observe
sandhi
alternation in the recitation of these vikRtis seems to serve the same
function.  That is, the vikRtis are a backup device intended to inhibit
unconscious substitution.  They are not simply tour de force displays of
skill, as the memorization of a text 'backwards and forwards' would appear
to
be.

This suggests that in Vedic there is in fact a kind of ekAgratA [to borrow
the term used by S.R. Mehta].  The vikRti, as a mnemonic device -- if that
is
in fact what it is -- is just one manifestation of that single focus which I
think is characteristic of Vedic in general: that is, focus not only on the
received text, but also on the language of that text -- in particular on the
ANALYSIS of that language.  This involves not only the analysis of its
phonological shape [in the prAtizAkhyas], but also the analysis of semantic
features [as in the nirukta tradition, and even in the brAhmaNas to some
extent], as well as syntactic and morphological features.  These late Vedic
activities are the predecessors of the astonishing Paninian tradition which
was the first systematic linguistic analysis of a language ever attempted.

I believe that metalinguistic operations like these can be traced back even
to the Rgveda, where metalinguistics and poetics are thoroughly intertwined
[of course, the metaphor *speech* = *weaving* is widespread in the RV].

Well, there are other things to be said about Vedic smRti [memory], but I've
probably already exceeded the acceptable limits of a single post.  In
closing, I would agree with Arlo Griffith and Dominik Wujastyk that Harry
Falk has done the hard work of examining the evidence and should not be
dismissed by reference to the unpublished remarks of Patrick Olivelle and
unnamed others.  Reference to Patrick Olivelle in this context is just as
unfair to Patrick himself as it is to Falk.

At least so it seems to me.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL  Tue Oct 23 02:50:17 2001
From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 01 04:50:17 +0200
Subject: Plans for mass conversion of Dalits to Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.40.0110221217180.10228-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac .uk>
Message-ID: <161227069828.23782.7352202604599867563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to http://www.ambedkar.org/News/milldBuddhism.htm

One million dalits will embrace Buddhism in Delhi on Nov 4


"Durban, September 02, 20:24

About one million dalits will embrace Buddhism in a mass ceremony in Delhi
on November 4, Ram Raj, leader of the All Indian Confederation of SC/ST
organisations, who is attending the World Conference against Racism here,
claimed on Sunday".

According to http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010904/haryana.htm#7

2 lakh Dalits prepare to embrace Buddhism

"Fatehabad, September 3

The All-India Confederation of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes
Organisations, an apex body of various Dalit  organisations in the country,
has been mobilising the Dalits to embrace Buddhism to express their
resentment against what they call "the brahmanical social order" in the
country. The confederation will organise a  ceremony at Ram Lila Ground
here on November 4 in this regard. The confederation hopes that more than
two lakh Dalits from Haryana alone would embrace Buddhism during the mass
conversion function."


I would be very grateful for any bit of additional information.

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Tue Oct 23 16:41:42 2001
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 01 12:41:42 -0400
Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India
Message-ID: <161227069830.23782.16056136256848467747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello again Mahadevan,

Discussion of ortho-epic diasceuasis and of a kind of padapATha in Avestan
begins with several aricles by Karl Hoffmann, which are collected in his
*Aufsaetze zur Indo-Iranistik* [1975], as well as in the essay "Altiranisch"
in *Handbuch der Orientalistik [Erste Abteilung, Vierter Band*, on Iranistik
[1958].  There is some discussion, in English, also in his article in the
Encyclopaedia Iranica on "Avestan Language."

Humbach in his 1991 edition of the Gathas and other Old Avestan texts
discusses phenomena such as prefix repetition and sandhi in the Gathas.  See
also the edition of Kellens and Pirart: *Les textes vieil-avestiques* [esp.
volume One, 1988].

Hope that helps!

George Thompson




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Oct 24 15:18:31 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 01 16:18:31 +0100
Subject: ISO 15919 (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069833.23782.8017655187384786921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:14:00 +0100
From: Dr Anthony P Stone <stone_catend at compuserve.com>
Subject: ISO 15919

To: Members of the Conv-Dev mailing list

Dear Colleagues

I am glad to tell you that ISO 15919, 'Transliteration of Devangari and
related Indic scripts into Latin characters', has now been published and
is available from National Standards Bodies.

Hearty thanks again to all who contributed to this project.

Tony Stone

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader for ISO 15919 (Transliteration of
Indic scripts) under ISO/TC46/SC2/WG14.
20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK.
Tel/Fax: +44 (0) 1582 626647  [Fax requires prior voice call]
   Thinking aloud on transliteration:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE  Thu Oct 25 10:46:46 2001
From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 01 12:46:46 +0200
Subject: GArgIya-JyotiSa ed
Message-ID: <161227069836.23782.3584265361534729936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>?From John E. Mitchiner's introduction to his edition of the Yuga-PurANa
(Bibliotheca Indica, 1986), it may be supposed that the author was at that
time planning to produce an edition of the unedited GArgIya-JyotiSa (of
which the Yuga-PurANa is a chapter), obviously an important old
astro-nomical/-logical tract dealing with various other subjects.
Has somebody heard about such a work in progress?

Dr. Christophe Vielle
Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud
Institut orientaliste
Place Blaise Pascal 1
B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve
BELGIUM
Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home)
E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Oct 25 18:04:03 2001
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 01 21:04:03 +0300
Subject: R.N.Dandekar: biodata
Message-ID: <161227069838.23782.2132733112280594327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
        could anybody give me (or make a reference to) any recent/latest
biographical data on Professor R.N.Dandekar? I have to update my foreword to
a volume of his selected works translated into Russian ten years ago.
Have not heard much about him since then.
Many thanks in advance,
                                                Ya.V.
---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Institute of Oriental Studies
Thu, 25 Oct 101 20:55 +0300 MSK




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Oct 27 11:24:58 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 01 12:24:58 +0100
Subject: announcement of position (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069840.23782.6324671305619567293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies in the School of
Arts and Sciences of the University of Pennsylvania, has been
authorized to make a full-time tenure-track appointment in the area
of the languages, literature, philosophy, culture, and society of
South Asia between 1000 BCE and 1000 CE. The appointment will be
made as of July 1, 2002. The individual will be expected to have
excellent skills in Sanskrit, as well as competence in other relevant
languages. The primary duties include teaching at both the
undergraduate and graduate levels offering specialized classes based
on texts in the original languages, as well as more generalized and
survey classes. The individual must have a firm and demonstrable
commitment to research and publication. Ph.D. required by August,
2002. Salary will depend on qualifications and experience.
The review of applications will begin on December 3, 2001 and will
continue until the position is filled.
Please address applications, including an up-to-date curriculum
vitae, sample publications, a statement of research interests, and
the names of three referees with their U.S. mail and e-mail addresses
to:
Professor David Silverman, Chair
Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
847 Williams Hall
University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6305
THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA IS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY/AFFIRMATIVE
ACTION EMPLOYER




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Oct 29 16:41:28 2001
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 08:41:28 -0800
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
Message-ID: <161227069844.23782.10625148592185906543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Might I humbly suggest that when Mr. Michaels entitles the book he
edits "Traditional Scholarship in India," he perpetuates an extremely
wrong and unfortunate stereotype: that in traditional India, only the
Brahmins were learned.  The fact is, most of Tamil literature is by
non-Brahmins, and it is quite as extensive as Sanskrit.  And, in
Sanskrit and the Prakrits, an enormous amount of literature was
produced by various non-Brahmins (e.g. Jains and Buddhists) who were
not Brahmins and Pundits (which, incidentally, is a Dravidian word).
Even low castes have their own literary traditions in South India --
are we to suppose they are somehow inferior as human beings and their
rich traditions are not worthy to be placed beside that of people who
happen to be Brahmins?  WE MUST GET BEYOND RACIAL AND CASTE
STEREOTYPING WHEN WE DESCRIBE PREMODERN INDIA.  With respect and
hope, George Hart, Prof. of Tamil, Berkeley.
--




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Mon Oct 29 09:42:03 2001
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 10:42:03 +0100
Subject: Book announcement
Message-ID: <161227069842.23782.15905157926585912250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just released:

Axel Michaels (ed.)
The Pandit: Traditional Scholarship in India (Festschrift Paramesvara
Aithal)
Delhi: Manohar, 2001;  260 pp., ? Rs.
(South Asia Institute, New Delhi Branch, Heidelberg University; South
Asian Studies, No. XXXVIII)

Contents:

Foreword by Hermann Berger
Preface

I. Introduction
Ashok Aklujkar, Pandita and Pandits in History.
Axel Michaels, Traditional Sanskrit Learning in Contemporary India.

II. Roles and Functions
Ashok Aklujkar, The Pandits from a pinda-brahmanda Point of View.
Axel Michaels, The Pandit as a Legal Adviser: rajguru, rajpurohita and
dharmakarin.
Christopher M. Minkowski, The Pandit as a Public Intellectual: The
Contoversy over virodha or Inconsistency in the Astronomical Sciences

III: Traditions and Biographies
Bettina B?umer, Tantric Pandits in Varanasi: A Brief Survey.
Jim Benson, Shamkarabhatta's Family Chronicle: The Gadhivamshavarnana.
Madhav M. Deshpande, Pandit and Professor: Transformations in the 19th
Century Maharashtra.
Monika Horstmann, A Pandit among the Modernists and a Modernist among
the Pandits.

IV. Transmission and Scholarship
Johannes Bronkhorst, Traditional and Modern Sanskrit Scholarship: How Do
They Relate to Each Other?
Harry Falk, The Galitas in the Rigveda Padapatha: On the Origins of the
Samhitapatha and the Padapatha.
Gaya Caran Tripathi, Samskritapandulipinam samrakshane
panditanamavadanam.
Albrecht Wezler, Some Remarks on Nirukta 1.20 sakshatkrtadharmana
rishayo, etc.

(copies can be ordered from Manohar Pblishers, 4753/23 Ansari Rd,
Daryaganj, New Delhi 110033, e-mail: manbooks at vsnl.com)




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Mon Oct 29 16:56:44 2001
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 10:56:44 -0600
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
In-Reply-To: <p05101007b80337045ee6@[192.168.1.29]>
Message-ID: <161227069846.23782.7972458895725803545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Hart is making a good point.  Too often we (and that includes
me) tend to forget the role of non-Brahmins in the Indian
tradition--in spite of the fact that we all know better (or should).

Hans Henrich Hock



>Might I humbly suggest that when Mr. Michaels entitles the book he
>edits "Traditional Scholarship in India," he perpetuates an extremely
>wrong and unfortunate stereotype: that in traditional India, only the
>Brahmins were learned.  The fact is, most of Tamil literature is by
>non-Brahmins, and it is quite as extensive as Sanskrit.  And, in
>Sanskrit and the Prakrits, an enormous amount of literature was
>produced by various non-Brahmins (e.g. Jains and Buddhists) who were
>not Brahmins and Pundits (which, incidentally, is a Dravidian word).
>Even low castes have their own literary traditions in South India --
>are we to suppose they are somehow inferior as human beings and their
>rich traditions are not worthy to be placed beside that of people who
>happen to be Brahmins?  WE MUST GET BEYOND RACIAL AND CASTE
>STEREOTYPING WHEN WE DESCRIBE PREMODERN INDIA.  With respect and
>hope, George Hart, Prof. of Tamil, Berkeley.
>--




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Oct 29 17:34:58 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 12:34:58 -0500
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
In-Reply-To: <3BDD246B.A8C03E2C@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227069849.23782.3883046603322970201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

G. Hart & H. Hock have their points.

However, the book is entitled : "The Pandit", and its deals with
traditional PANDITs in INDIA. Otherwise, A. Michaels --as a long time
resident of the Kathmandu Valley-- could easily have included, for example,
the still persisting traditional Buddhist Sanskrit scholarship. etc. etc.
I would also take a look at Aklujkar's paper first, before sounding off.

The title says it all.

=============
>Just released:
>
>Axel Michaels (ed.)
>The Pandit: Traditional Scholarship in India (Festschrift Paramesvara
>Aithal)
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Oct 29 17:39:43 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 12:39:43 -0500
Subject: Re AgnidaNDa
In-Reply-To: <p05100300b7da37949236@[128.146.41.35]>
Message-ID: <161227069852.23782.7198601183136274056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A belated  answer to  an older discussion:


Leaving the agnidanda apart for the moment, I think all available
information on the Patan Agnimath (agiMmaTha) indicates that it has
traditionally been run by the Newari speaking Rajopadhyaya Brahmins,
indeed for many centuries (probably from 1140 CE, and certainly from 1430
CE onwards).

For details see:

MW, Agnihotra-Rituale in Nepal. In: Formen kulturellen Wandels und andere
Beitrage zur Erforschung des Himalaya, ed. B. Kolver u. S. Lienhard, St.
Augustin: VGH  Wissenschaftsverlag 1986, 157-187

MW,  Meaningful ritual. Structure, development and interpretation of the
Tantric Agnihotra ritual of Nepal. Ritual, State and History in South Asia.
Essays in honour of J.C. Heesterman, ed. A.W. van den Hoek, D.H.A. Kolff,
M.S.Oort, Leiden 1992, 774-827

Cf. also the  booklet by Aishvarya Dhar Sharma, in Newari, of the mid-Eighties.

Mary Slusser's brief description of the Agnimath in her "Nepalamandala" is
based on  slightly incorrect  information: these Brahmins are not Saiva but
vegetarian Vaishnava, and  the aahavaniiya, the most important fire altar
in the 'temple', is dedidated to Visnu, not Shiva/Rudra.

>While I am aware of the your information regarding the priests at the
>Agnimath,  our information on the Brahmin and the Joshi caste came
>from the priest and his wife directly I will have to suggest that it
>is the de facto situation at the time of our visit.(September-October
>1994)

That may be true NOW. Already when one of the last Agnihotrins died in c.
1980, the Rajopadhyayas had trouble to find a successor. One of them told
me that the local (Buddh.) farmers (Jyapus) had threatened to take over the
running of the fire temple, upon which the Rajopadhyayas finally convinced
a former Kathmandu school teacher, a Raj., to take over. His wife, however,
complained to me about this (kasto dukh cha...)

It may be that a change has taken place upon the passing of the then
officiating Rajopadhyaya (who theoretically always must be the oldest male
of the Raj. group).

>>I would like to stress that the officiating priests in the agnimaTha in
>>Patan in Nepal are not Joshi but Raajopaadhyaaya. In common parlance they
>>are called DyaH Bhajuu. Joshi, you must know, in caste hierarchy of the
>>Newars are not regarded as Brahmins, and their status is lower than that of
>>the Raajopaadhyaaya.

We have to countercheck, thus, on the Joshi claim. It may be a
misunderstanding that has arisen from the fact that the Agnihotrin always
has to offer a lot of grain homas for his local 'parishioners' when they
ask for it. These requests are based on the predictions of a local Joshi,
made on their birthday, of pending dangers for the coming year.

I would doubt that an actual Joshi has taken over by now. But who knows?

>>In order to make the picture much more clear, let me allow presenting a
>>translation of the core part of the document:

>>We hereby grant the agnidaNDa, which has been enjoyed by Dharmaa?ngada
>>PaNDita to                you as long as you live. Take one-seventh of the
>>income from the praayashcitta in. the form of produce, and enjoy it. Keep on
>>giving your blessings to us.
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Oct 29 21:20:45 2001
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 13:20:45 -0800
Subject: The Pandit: Traditional Scholarship in India
Message-ID: <161227069856.23782.5979013949292704885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I should add to my comments: the book looks quite interesting and
valuable.  My only quibble is not the main title (The Pandit), but
the addition of "Traditional Scholarship in India," which implies to
me that the book covers the whole of traditional scholarship.  As we
know, what pandits do is no doubt important, but is only the tip of
the iceberg as far as traditional learning goes.  We should at least
acknowledge the existence of the rest of the iceberg.  George Hart
--




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Mon Oct 29 19:54:59 2001
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 01 22:54:59 +0300
Subject: R.N.Dandekar
Message-ID: <161227069854.23782.14059134457783451586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am most grateful to Vishal Agarwal and Klaus Karttunen
for bio-bibliographic data on Professor R.N.Dandekar.
                                                      Ya.V.
---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Institute of Oriental Studies
Mon, 29 Oct 101 22:50 +0300 MSK




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Oct 30 15:36:08 2001
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 07:36:08 -0800
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
In-Reply-To: <3BDE8118.ABA71F6@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227069863.23782.4911835486562559300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Michaels,

I do agree that it is unfair to bandy terms like racism and casteism,
and I apologize.  Of course, I did not mean to use the terms
personally -- indeed, I am quite aware that the scholars represented
in your book are all excellent.  Sadly, the history of Indological
studies has, for historical reasons, been dominated by a kind of
strange bias that has had quite noxious effects, one of which has
been to feed the causes of Hindu extremism, of casteism, and of the
myth that Brahmins, as the "scholars" of India, are somehow superior
intellectually and culturally (and even racially) to others.  This
is, purely and simply, a construction, fed by Western biases and by
the fact that the great majority of Western scholars have gotten
their understanding of traditional India from Brahmins.  I myself
have a pretty good Sanskrit basis -- I spoke Sanskrit with several
pandits in Madras for a year, reading alankaara and tarka texts, and
I have even written a Sanskrit primer, for which I wrote the Sanskrit
sentences.  I have lived in a Tamil milieu for 35 years (my wife is
from Madurai), and I know the culture quite well.

In any case, I do apologize -- I did not wish to brand anyone with
ignominious epithets; rather I wanted to point to biases in the field
(which I still feel are there).  I would like to suggest that it
would be useful to take a look at traditional Indian scholarship from
a non-Brahmin perspective, including both high and low castes.  Such
a book would profoundly surprise many people.

As an addendum, I would remark the following: 1. Brahmins in South
India are less than 3% of the population; 2. Kalidasa, from his name,
must have been a Sudra (and how about Sudraka and the Suutas and
Magadhas who were bards and recited the epics); 3. In many
non-Brahmin caste groups of Tamil Nadu, some of them quite low, there
are extraordinarily rich non-Brahmin traditions that are quite as
rich as anything the Brahmins have; 4. One of the most learned groups
I have encountered is a group of low-caste people that performs
villuppaattu -- they use both Tamil and Telugu, and have broad
learning in Hindu things that few if any Brahmins have.  I could go
on and on.  Suffice it to say that we should become aware that
Brahmins represent only one of many important and central learning
traditions of India.  The days when we thought we could understand
traditional India by looking at the Vedic and other Brahmanical
traditions are, in my view, long gone. George Hart

PS You say that topics like caste and bias should not be considered
in this group.  I must profoundly and respectfully disagree.  It is
my belief and experience that the field of Indology is riddled with
biases and inaccurate ideas.  These DO reflect racist and caste views
of the past.  There is no way around this.  In my view, it is
critically important to the field that we do a better job of
confronting these biases.  One of the ways we can do that is to
listen to each other and to be open and frank.  The fact that we
inherit a tradition that is biased does not reflect on any of us
personally.  Nor does it make books such as the one you edited any
less valuable.  It DOES mean that we all need to see such things in a
much wider context.  Your title does not give that context, and that
sparked my criticism.  I look forward to reading the book -- and,
again, I extend my apologies, as I did not mean to impugn anyone's
scholarship or motives, which, I realize, are of the highest order.
--




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Oct 30 16:47:09 2001
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 08:47:09 -0800
Subject: Dasa
In-Reply-To: <619707.3213430548@[141.211.72.120]>
Message-ID: <161227069869.23782.3068387376622594244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Of course, in modern India, the suffix -daasa does not denote a
Sudra.  But in premodern India, according to Apte and others, -daasa
was a suffix meant for Sudras much as -sarma was (and is) for
Brahmins and -varma for Ksatriyas.  So the question I'd ask Maadhav
(who knows much more Sanskrit than I do) is: are there any known
Brahmin names from before the 5th century AD that end in -daasa?  Of
course, one could suppose that Kaalidaasa was not the poet's original
name and that he took it as a sort of poetic name because of his love
for the Goddess.  Still, it would be interesting to find parallels.
I admit that, given the milieu of the Gupta court and its patronage
of Brahmanical Hinduism, it is a distinct possibility that Kaalidaasa
was a Brahmin.  GH.
--




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Tue Oct 30 15:01:52 2001
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 09:01:52 -0600
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
In-Reply-To: <3BDE8118.ABA71F6@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227069860.23782.13545345272477765943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My apologies, dear colleague,

Hans Henrich Hock


>Dear Mr. Hart,
>
>Thank you for the attention you gave to my e-mail, BUT:
>1. Are nowadays "reviews" or comments on books acceptable before even
>leafing through the book?
>2. The book is not only on Sanskrit Pandits! The name Monika Horstmann
>should have indicated that. She deals with a non-Sanskrit Pandit (H.P.
>Dvivedi). Similarily Madhav Deshpande and Ashok Aklujkar discuss at
>length Maharashtrian scholarship as I have partly in my article focussed
>on the non-Sanskrit/Brahmin legal adviser of the king of Nepal. Moreover,
>ustads and professors are also traditional scholars: both are discussed
>in the book.
>3. The book deals with traditional scholarship in India (and Nepal, by
>the way: another severe case of hegemony?), but not with all traditional
>scholarship. I can?t see why your impression that it is a book on all
>traditional scholarship in India should be automatically implied by the
>title. Titles are always cutting a long story short. A more precise title
>could have been: "The Pandit: On traditional and modern Vedic, Sanskrit,
>Hindi, Nepali, Kannarese, Marathi etc. scholarship in India, Nepal, North
>America and some parts of Europe." But the times are over when publishers
>accepted such titles as we are both aware. (Do you remember the full
>title of Hobson-Jobson?: "A Glossary of colloquial anglo-indian words and
>phrases, and of kindred terms, etymological, historical, geographical and
>discursive").They wish to have an interesting, concise title which does
>justice to the contents and is not too misleading. I think the current
>title does exactly that.
>4.Further, the book is a Festschrift for P.Aithal who is a renowned South
>Indian not North Indian Scholar.
>5. All who know me (or my publications) are aware that I am the last
>person (by  German indological standards at least!) who stands for the
>superiority of Brahmins or Sanskrit in terms of Indian literature and
>religion. The South Asia Institute at Heidelberg University, with a focus
>on modern South Asia and its languages (including Tamil) where I am
>employed leaves no opportunity for such an attitude nor does my own firm
>commitment to a field-work oriented research of several Indian religions
>(plural!). My book on Hinduism (which is currently translated into
>English by Princeton University Press) is further proof of this.
>Given these facts, I find it astounding and hurtful to be accused of any
>kind of "RACIAL AND CASTE
>STEREOTYPING" and can only hope that you reconsider those comments after
>a careful look at the book and in
>the light of my comments. (I shall ask the editor to send you a
>complimentary copy).
>
>Best wishes,
>Axel Michaels
>
>p.s. I had hoped that this list would not get again into discussions on
>moral or political topics. However, as an editor I  felt that I should
>answer you in this open form in order to "protect" the contributors.
>
>George Hart wrote:
>
> > Might I humbly suggest that when Mr. Michaels entitles the book he
> > edits "Traditional Scholarship in India," he perpetuates an extremely
> > wrong and unfortunate stereotype: that in traditional India, only the
> > Brahmins were learned.  The fact is, most of Tamil literature is by
> > non-Brahmins, and it is quite as extensive as Sanskrit.  And, in
> > Sanskrit and the Prakrits, an enormous amount of literature was
> > produced by various non-Brahmins (e.g. Jains and Buddhists) who were
> > not Brahmins and Pundits (which, incidentally, is a Dravidian word).
> > Even low castes have their own literary traditions in South India --
> > are we to suppose they are somehow inferior as human beings and their
> > rich traditions are not worthy to be placed beside that of people who
> > happen to be Brahmins?  WE MUST GET BEYOND RACIAL AND CASTE
> > STEREOTYPING WHEN WE DESCRIBE PREMODERN INDIA.  With respect and
> > hope, George Hart, Prof. of Tamil, Berkeley.
> > --




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Tue Oct 30 19:12:33 2001
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 11:12:33 -0800
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
In-Reply-To: <3BDEECF7.7FA865AF@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227069876.23782.758745588622242018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for your gracious response.  I plead guilty to posting
something impetuously that I should not have posted -- I could  quite
easily have raised the same points without any sort of apparent
personal implications (which, of course, I did not intend).  It is
good to keep in mind that, with the click of a mouse, messages on
this forum go out to many different people, and, once sent, they
cannot be recalled.  Once again, my apologies and thanks.  GH.

>  > As an addendum, I would remark the following: 1. Brahmins in South
>>  India are less than 3% of the population; 2. Kalidasa, from his name,
>>  must have been a Sudra (and how about Sudraka and the Suutas and
>>  Magadhas who were bards and recited the epics); 3. In many non-Brahmin
>>  caste groups of Tamil Nadu, some of them quite low, there are
>>  extraordinarily rich non-Brahmin traditions that are quite as rich as
>>  anything the Brahmins have; 4. One of the most learned groups I have
>>  encountered is a group of low-caste people that performs villuppaattu
>>  -- they use both Tamil and Telugu, and have broad learning in Hindu
>>  things that few if any Brahmins have.  I could go
>>  on and on.  Suffice it to say that we should become aware that Brahmins
>>  represent only one of many important and central learning traditions of
>>  India.
>
>I agree. As an ddendum to the addendum I like to remark the following: It
>is not justified to identify the term "pandit" with brahminhood? In fact,
>one result of the conference and the book is to see how widely the term
>was applied and that it was not at all restricted to Brahmins.
>
>With many thanks for your apologies and best wishes,
>Axel Michaels


--




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Tue Oct 30 10:29:44 2001
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 11:29:44 +0100
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
Message-ID: <161227069858.23782.12463455232236019433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Hart,

Thank you for the attention you gave to my e-mail, BUT:
1. Are nowadays "reviews" or comments on books acceptable before even
leafing through the book?
2. The book is not only on Sanskrit Pandits! The name Monika Horstmann
should have indicated that. She deals with a non-Sanskrit Pandit (H.P.
Dvivedi). Similarily Madhav Deshpande and Ashok Aklujkar discuss at
length Maharashtrian scholarship as I have partly in my article focussed
on the non-Sanskrit/Brahmin legal adviser of the king of Nepal. Moreover,
ustads and professors are also traditional scholars: both are discussed
in the book.
3. The book deals with traditional scholarship in India (and Nepal, by
the way: another severe case of hegemony?), but not with all traditional
scholarship. I can?t see why your impression that it is a book on all
traditional scholarship in India should be automatically implied by the
title. Titles are always cutting a long story short. A more precise title
could have been: "The Pandit: On traditional and modern Vedic, Sanskrit,
Hindi, Nepali, Kannarese, Marathi etc. scholarship in India, Nepal, North
America and some parts of Europe." But the times are over when publishers
accepted such titles as we are both aware. (Do you remember the full
title of Hobson-Jobson?: "A Glossary of colloquial anglo-indian words and
phrases, and of kindred terms, etymological, historical, geographical and
discursive").They wish to have an interesting, concise title which does
justice to the contents and is not too misleading. I think the current
title does exactly that.
4.Further, the book is a Festschrift for P.Aithal who is a renowned South
Indian not North Indian Scholar.
5. All who know me (or my publications) are aware that I am the last
person (by  German indological standards at least!) who stands for the
superiority of Brahmins or Sanskrit in terms of Indian literature and
religion. The South Asia Institute at Heidelberg University, with a focus
on modern South Asia and its languages (including Tamil) where I am
employed leaves no opportunity for such an attitude nor does my own firm
commitment to a field-work oriented research of several Indian religions
(plural!). My book on Hinduism (which is currently translated into
English by Princeton University Press) is further proof of this.
Given these facts, I find it astounding and hurtful to be accused of any
kind of "RACIAL AND CASTE
STEREOTYPING" and can only hope that you reconsider those comments after
a careful look at the book and in
the light of my comments. (I shall ask the editor to send you a
complimentary copy).

Best wishes,
Axel Michaels

p.s. I had hoped that this list would not get again into discussions on
moral or political topics. However, as an editor I  felt that I should
answer you in this open form in order to "protect" the contributors.

George Hart wrote:

> Might I humbly suggest that when Mr. Michaels entitles the book he
> edits "Traditional Scholarship in India," he perpetuates an extremely
> wrong and unfortunate stereotype: that in traditional India, only the
> Brahmins were learned.  The fact is, most of Tamil literature is by
> non-Brahmins, and it is quite as extensive as Sanskrit.  And, in
> Sanskrit and the Prakrits, an enormous amount of literature was
> produced by various non-Brahmins (e.g. Jains and Buddhists) who were
> not Brahmins and Pundits (which, incidentally, is a Dravidian word).
> Even low castes have their own literary traditions in South India --
> are we to suppose they are somehow inferior as human beings and their
> rich traditions are not worthy to be placed beside that of people who
> happen to be Brahmins?  WE MUST GET BEYOND RACIAL AND CASTE
> STEREOTYPING WHEN WE DESCRIBE PREMODERN INDIA.  With respect and
> hope, George Hart, Prof. of Tamil, Berkeley.
> --




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Tue Oct 30 16:35:48 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 11:35:48 -0500
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
In-Reply-To: <p05101000b8046e12f402@[192.168.1.29]>
Message-ID: <161227069867.23782.1897474021290318697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Hart's statement that Kaalidaasa, from his name which includes the
word daasa, must be a zuudra is very strange.  There are any number of
Brahmins in Maharashtra and elsewhere who have names like Raamadaasa,
K.r.s.nadaasa, etc. and there is no necessary reason to believe that any
name that includes the word daasa must be a zuudra name.
                                        Madhav

--On Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:36 AM -0800 George Hart
<ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU> wrote:

> Dear Prof. Michaels,
>
> I do agree that it is unfair to bandy terms like racism and casteism,
> and I apologize.  Of course, I did not mean to use the terms
> personally -- indeed, I am quite aware that the scholars represented
> in your book are all excellent.  Sadly, the history of Indological
> studies has, for historical reasons, been dominated by a kind of
> strange bias that has had quite noxious effects, one of which has
> been to feed the causes of Hindu extremism, of casteism, and of the
> myth that Brahmins, as the "scholars" of India, are somehow superior
> intellectually and culturally (and even racially) to others.  This
> is, purely and simply, a construction, fed by Western biases and by
> the fact that the great majority of Western scholars have gotten
> their understanding of traditional India from Brahmins.  I myself
> have a pretty good Sanskrit basis -- I spoke Sanskrit with several
> pandits in Madras for a year, reading alankaara and tarka texts, and
> I have even written a Sanskrit primer, for which I wrote the Sanskrit
> sentences.  I have lived in a Tamil milieu for 35 years (my wife is
> from Madurai), and I know the culture quite well.
>
> In any case, I do apologize -- I did not wish to brand anyone with
> ignominious epithets; rather I wanted to point to biases in the field
> (which I still feel are there).  I would like to suggest that it
> would be useful to take a look at traditional Indian scholarship from
> a non-Brahmin perspective, including both high and low castes.  Such
> a book would profoundly surprise many people.
>
> As an addendum, I would remark the following: 1. Brahmins in South
> India are less than 3% of the population; 2. Kalidasa, from his name,
> must have been a Sudra (and how about Sudraka and the Suutas and
> Magadhas who were bards and recited the epics); 3. In many
> non-Brahmin caste groups of Tamil Nadu, some of them quite low, there
> are extraordinarily rich non-Brahmin traditions that are quite as
> rich as anything the Brahmins have; 4. One of the most learned groups
> I have encountered is a group of low-caste people that performs
> villuppaattu -- they use both Tamil and Telugu, and have broad
> learning in Hindu things that few if any Brahmins have.  I could go
> on and on.  Suffice it to say that we should become aware that
> Brahmins represent only one of many important and central learning
> traditions of India.  The days when we thought we could understand
> traditional India by looking at the Vedic and other Brahmanical
> traditions are, in my view, long gone. George Hart
>
> PS You say that topics like caste and bias should not be considered
> in this group.  I must profoundly and respectfully disagree.  It is
> my belief and experience that the field of Indology is riddled with
> biases and inaccurate ideas.  These DO reflect racist and caste views
> of the past.  There is no way around this.  In my view, it is
> critically important to the field that we do a better job of
> confronting these biases.  One of the ways we can do that is to
> listen to each other and to be open and frank.  The fact that we
> inherit a tradition that is biased does not reflect on any of us
> personally.  Nor does it make books such as the one you edited any
> less valuable.  It DOES mean that we all need to see such things in a
> much wider context.  Your title does not give that context, and that
> sparked my criticism.  I look forward to reading the book -- and,
> again, I extend my apologies, as I did not mean to impugn anyone's
> scholarship or motives, which, I realize, are of the highest order.
> --




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Tue Oct 30 18:23:16 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 13:23:16 -0500
Subject: Dasa
In-Reply-To: <p05101004b80488fc42e3@[192.168.1.29]>
Message-ID: <161227069874.23782.4585832715973794832.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Also in premodern times, right back into Vedic times, we have names with
Daasa referring to Brahmins.  One example is that of the Vedic expert
Pratardana.h Daivodaasi.h referred to in Zaa.mkhaayana Braahma.na (26.5),
the son of Devadaasa, a Brahmin who raises important questions regarding
sacrificial details.  So I would not take the prescriptive statements cited
by Apte too seriously.  Best,


Madhav

--On Tuesday, October 30, 2001, 8:47 AM -0800 George Hart
<ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU> wrote:

> Of course, in modern India, the suffix -daasa does not denote a
> Sudra.  But in premodern India, according to Apte and others, -daasa
> was a suffix meant for Sudras much as -sarma was (and is) for
> Brahmins and -varma for Ksatriyas.  So the question I'd ask Maadhav
> (who knows much more Sanskrit than I do) is: are there any known
> Brahmin names from before the 5th century AD that end in -daasa?  Of
> course, one could suppose that Kaalidaasa was not the poet's original
> name and that he took it as a sort of poetic name because of his love
> for the Goddess.  Still, it would be interesting to find parallels.
> I admit that, given the milieu of the Gupta court and its patronage
> of Brahmanical Hinduism, it is a distinct possibility that Kaalidaasa
> was a Brahmin.  GH.
> --



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From GRUENEN at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE  Tue Oct 30 16:47:54 2001
From: GRUENEN at MAIL.SUB.UNI-GOETTINGEN.DE (GRUENENDAHL)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 16:47:54 +0000
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
Message-ID: <161227069865.23782.5743447341470390677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George Hart wrote:

> I could go on and on.


Please, don't.


R. Gruenendahl
********************************************************************

Dr. Reinhold Gruenendahl
Niedersaechsische Staats- und Universitaetsbibliothek
Fachreferat sued- und suedostasiatische Philologien
(Dept. of Indology)
37070 Goettingen
Germany
Tel (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 52 83
Fax (+49) (0)5 51 / 39 23 61
gruenen at mail.sub.uni-goettingen.de



FACH-INFORMATIONEN INDOLOGIE, GOETTINGEN:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindolo.htm

In English:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm

*********************************************************************




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Tue Oct 30 18:09:59 2001
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 01 19:09:59 +0100
Subject: Axel Michaels edited book "The Pandit"
Message-ID: <161227069872.23782.13399929214638540816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> As an addendum, I would remark the following: 1. Brahmins in South
> India are less than 3% of the population; 2. Kalidasa, from his name,
> must have been a Sudra (and how about Sudraka and the Suutas and
> Magadhas who were bards and recited the epics); 3. In many non-Brahmin
> caste groups of Tamil Nadu, some of them quite low, there are
> extraordinarily rich non-Brahmin traditions that are quite as rich as
> anything the Brahmins have; 4. One of the most learned groups I have
> encountered is a group of low-caste people that performs villuppaattu
> -- they use both Tamil and Telugu, and have broad learning in Hindu
> things that few if any Brahmins have.  I could go
> on and on.  Suffice it to say that we should become aware that Brahmins
> represent only one of many important and central learning traditions of
> India.

I agree. As an ddendum to the addendum I like to remark the following: It
is not justified to identify the term "pandit" with brahminhood? In fact,
one result of the conference and the book is to see how widely the term
was applied and that it was not at all restricted to Brahmins.

With many thanks for your apologies and best wishes,
Axel Michaels