From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Thu Mar 1 01:12:10 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 20:12:10 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067819.23782.6215867273340744659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, I did not make any point about whether the West should have "allowed the Soviets to occupy Afghanistan unopposed" and I am frankly not interested in geopolitical arguments unblemished by a human perspective. I sympathise to some extent with the remark made here to the effect that arguing about past blame is sterile, so I will point out that there are two, not one, policies concerning Afghanistan in effect _right now_, one with real effect, one symbolic. The one with real effect is the Washington policy (faithfully implemented by the UN) of economically punishing a people (16 million Afghans) who are already known to be in such drastic straits (leave aside for the moment the actions of Washington that helped bring this about) that many are at present starving to death; this in retaliation for no more than the exercise by the government of the Taleban of their right of sovereignty under the UN charter (the same right under which Norway refuses to extradite suspects facing the death penalty to the US). The other is the Taleban policy, only recently announced despite their having been in power for almost five years, of destroying some of the most visible pre-Islamic monuments in the country. This being an academic list, I would expect people to be wary of attributing 'inherent' qualities to whole populations (as Dr. Fosse does when he accuses "Afghans" as a whole of "religious fanaticism") before first considering contingent responses to circumstances. Given first that the rise of the Taleban coincided with utter despair among ordinary Afghans that the ongoing war among gangs of rival mujahideen -- all of them established with American arms and money -- could ever be resolved and law and order established, there are excellent reasons (not forgetting the alleged Pakistani support for the Taleban) other than such inherent fanaticism for the Taleban's rise, and this has been widely commented on. Given second that the Taleban's announcement coincides with increasing starvation and despair in Afghanistan, where prices have at least doubled following the UN sanctions, and given that the Taleban have been in power for over four years without destroying the Bamiyan statues, there is every argument for seeing their latest policy too as a contingent response to desperate circumstances rather than as an inherent outgrowth of their 'fanaticism'. Dr. Fosse - when you, as an Indologist, a Norwegian, a human being, are complicit in the international policy that says the Taleban government must be treated as international pariahs and the Afghan people as legitimate casualties of an extradition dispute, what right do you have to protest when they behave desperately and irrationally? When the Afghans have been subjected first to widespread destruction by the Russians, then to the funding and arming of disparate private groups by the wealthiest country in the world to the point where the nation's capital became the permanent battleground of those groups, and then to the active and effective hostility of that same country with all other nations (except a few like Pakistan and Turkmenistan) acquiescing, by what logic can you attribute their adoption of extreme ideologies and desperate (and unpleasant) actions to their inherent failings rather than to the pressure of contingent circumstance? Forgive me, but if your hypocrisy is not clear to you it is quite revolting to me; you sound like a German of, say, 1941, complaining that Poles are violent terrorists by nature. Regards, Rohan. >As for responsibility, it has to be distributed. The Afghans cannot be >blamed for trying to liberate their country. However, they can be blamed >for in-fighting, tribalism, and religious fanaticism which are not >conducive to restoring the country. The Soviets must take the main >responsibility for destroying Afghan society and its vulnerable economy. >The West must take responsibility for not helping (enough) after the war >was over. Let me remind you, by the way, that the Taliban are relative >latecomers. The Afghans that received American help (through Pakistan, >which manipulated the situation according to its own needs) in the eighties >were not quite so extreme as the Taliban. > >Are you suggesting that the West should have allowed the Soviets to occupy >Afghanistan unopposed, by the way? I am not entirely convinced that India's >generals would have been comfortable with the Soviets firmly established in >Afghanistan. That would put them uncomfortably close to India, and if I >remember my Kautilya, there should be at least one country between yourself >and your ally. From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Mar 1 04:41:26 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 23:41:26 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067824.23782.3830044351854928727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vaNakkam >> Mr. Oberoi's comments are, at the least, uncalled for, >> inappropriate, and unhelpful. And so are the comments of RohitChopra who seconded RohanOberoi's ideas !! Is this any exception/surprise ??? No Muslim, educated or not, intellectual or not, will ever come out of the closet and condemn the acts of the Taliban - the reason being, if they did condemn it, then they are violating the teachings of Mohammed (their prophet) and hence violating what is in koran. How could they do it ? http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/014.qmt.html#014.035 http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html#021.052 to http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html#021.059 It is foolish to expect the muslim community to condemn the taliban's action to destroy statues of gods of other religions. In the eyes of hardcore Islamists, statues of Buddha are idols of false gods which must be destroyed as per Mohammed's words. The talibans are just following what is in their religion, turning their clock back to the 7-th and 8-th century !!! This is one side to the reality which must not be forgotten !! Another side is all this need for assistance and that Afghanistan is isolated and all that stuff ..... - Suresh ----- Original Message ----- From: Ravi Chaudhary To: Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:05 PM Subject: Re: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Mr. Oberoi's comments are, at the least, uncalled for, inappropriate, and unhelpful. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Mar 1 04:45:26 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 23:45:26 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: <00c001c0a209$e214e740$149dfea9@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <161227067828.23782.12790031737466836559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't resonate with the harsh language and angry tone in Mr. Oberoi's posting, but it seems to me that he is making a point which is not trivial: Though one may condemn this particular act of the Taliban, and may even attribute it to some inherent feature in the rigid version of their religion, as scholars, i.e. as dispassionate observers/commentators, perhaps we must take into account the dire economic problems the psychological frustrations resulting from their political isolation, and such other factors which might have contributed to their drastic decision. Indeed, such understanding could enable us to avert similar actions there or elsewhere in the world. In other words, one may condemn what they are doing, but one may also try to understand the human/pressing/political factors which might have lead the Afghan leaders to this particular move. Such an attempt to understand does not mean that one condones the act. Though I am personally very opposed to the Taliban decision, I think Mr. Oberoi is bringing to our attention an important aspect of the situation. Best regards, VVRaman From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Mar 1 05:38:13 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 00:38:13 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067830.23782.10662992838013200600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "the dire economic problems the psychological frustrations resulting from their political isolation" this is a result of the hardcore islam followed by the talibans themselves. - Suresh From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 06:29:20 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 01:29:20 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067834.23782.6686858354374982480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Oberoi/Ven. Tantra: I think that the main point was to express sadness at the loss of a great monument. This seemed to me, from the postings, to be clear. I don't think that anyone made a generalization about Afghans. Surely, anyone who destroys so ancient and valuable a monument is some sort of fanatic or at least not in his or her full senses. Mr. Oberoi - as for your posting in regards to Dr. Fosse's comments, no one can make such a huge judgement about complicity. How can one ascertain such a thing? Over the last couple weeks, I have noticed that you two have changed postings around to suit your own personal use. These kinds of postings are just a waste of time for the rest of the list. This list shouldn't be used as one's own personal soapbox. If you're going to post something, there should be at least some attempt to be constructive or add something to an argument. It's easy to say anything over the internet as you don't have to look the other person in the eye or even hear their voice: all you have to do is push the button. Let's please have less of this game playing and more constructive discussion. Lynken Ghose >Dr. Fosse - when you, as an Indologist, a Norwegian, a human being, >are complicit in the international policy that says the Taleban >government must be treated as international pariahs and the Afghan >people as legitimate casualties of an extradition dispute, what right >do you have to protest when they behave desperately and irrationally? >When the Afghans have been subjected first to widespread destruction >by the Russians, then to the funding and arming of disparate private >groups by the wealthiest country in the world to the point where the >nation's capital became the permanent battleground of those groups, >and then to the active and effective hostility of that same country >with all other nations (except a few like Pakistan and Turkmenistan) >acquiescing, by what logic can you attribute their adoption of extreme >ideologies and desperate (and unpleasant) actions to their inherent >failings rather than to the pressure of contingent circumstance? >Forgive me, but if your hypocrisy is not clear to you it is quite >revolting to me; you sound like a German of, say, 1941, complaining >that Poles are violent terrorists by nature. > >Regards, >Rohan. > > > > > > > >As for responsibility, it has to be distributed. The Afghans cannot be > >blamed for trying to liberate their country. However, they can be blamed > >for in-fighting, tribalism, and religious fanaticism which are not > >conducive to restoring the country. The Soviets must take the main > >responsibility for destroying Afghan society and its vulnerable economy. > >The West must take responsibility for not helping (enough) after the war > >was over. Let me remind you, by the way, that the Taliban are relative > >latecomers. The Afghans that received American help (through Pakistan, > >which manipulated the situation according to its own needs) in the >eighties > >were not quite so extreme as the Taliban. > > > >Are you suggesting that the West should have allowed the Soviets to >occupy > >Afghanistan unopposed, by the way? I am not entirely convinced that >India's > >generals would have been comfortable with the Soviets firmly established >in > >Afghanistan. That would put them uncomfortably close to India, and if I > >remember my Kautilya, there should be at least one country between >yourself > >and your ally. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 02:41:08 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 02:41:08 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067821.23782.3756526503187379784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dr. Fosse - when you, as an Indologist, a Norwegian, a human being, >are complicit in the international policy that says the Taleban >government must be treated as international pariahs and the Afghan >people as legitimate casualties of an extradition dispute, what right >do you have to protest when they behave desperately and irrationally? >When the Afghans have been subjected first to widespread destruction >by the Russians, then to the funding and arming of disparate private >groups by the wealthiest country in the world to the point where the >nation's capital became the permanent battleground of those groups, >and then to the active and effective hostility of that same country >with all other nations (except a few like Pakistan and Turkmenistan) >acquiescing, by what logic can you attribute their adoption of extreme >ideologies and desperate (and unpleasant) actions to their inherent >failings rather than to the pressure of contingent circumstance? >Forgive me, but if your hypocrisy is not clear to you it is quite >revolting to me; you sound like a German of, say, 1941, complaining >that Poles are violent terrorists by nature. > I second that, it seems almost to comply to the classic definition of orientalist stereotyping. It is interesting that if a white European or American group or individual commits a reprehensible action, it is always made out to be the case of an "pathological, disturbed individual" or the work of some aberrant group (such as David Korresh's cult for instance). This is the idea the western media reinforces and one that echoes popular western sentiment as well. However, if any other population commits the same action, then a generalization is made about the innate negative qualities of that group, people, population or even civilization. Thus neo-nazi white supremacist groups are conveniently designated part of a lunatic fringe in chiefly white, western societies, whereas the Taliban is supposed to represent the innate "fanaticism" of all Afghans or even Islam. What is equally sad is that an equal number of Indians on this list jump to the same easy conclusions mirroring in the in-built assumptions of a centuries-old means of representing the geographical equivalent of the subcontinent. This is one of the infections of colonialism, that ironically, infects most strongly those who stridently makes claims about the purity of Indian (which, in their opinion, is Hindu) culture. Unfortunately there still is a reliance on the categories of neo-liberal democracy, which is based on so-called universals that in actu have their provincial roots in European history, and thus innately endorse a white, male ideology. The same neo-liberal democracy allows for affluent western countries to choke third world countries in the name of "justice" or "world peace". Additionally, the models of "civil society" cannot account for the historical specificty of formulations of community in cultures other than those European provinces where these models were formulated. Arms exports to the third world form a significant source of revenue for affluent developed and postindustrial nations. It is on the basis of this money that the west can afford to make those "democratic, liberal" generalizations about "fanatics" and Islam. Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 03:05:15 2001 From: Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ravi Chaudhary) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 03:05:15 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067822.23782.7491425472180685768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:12:10 -0500, rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU wrote: ........ etc etc. Mr. Oberoi?s comments are, at the least, uncalled for, inappropriate, and unhelpful. I empathize and share the pain Dr Fosse must have felt on reading Mr. Oberoi?s comments. Art and the appreciation for art, transcends all cultures, is universal. The art in danger, is art that belongs to all of us, a legacy left to mankind by the unknown great artists who created these wonderful sculptures over two thousand years ago. The question to be addressed is what can be done if anything? For starters perhaps ...a communication attempt by members of this list to the leaders of countries who could influence these - would be destroyers of art. Regards Ravi From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 1 11:39:31 2001 From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 03:39:31 -0800 Subject: eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067843.23782.15996978557681810718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't it a puSpAkSI, listed among the women who cannot be dancers in some Sanskrit texts on classical dance? Regards, Marina Orelskaya --- john grimes wrote: > Friends; > Does anyone know of the Indian name for a woman's > eyes where the > white (cornea) is visible under the pupil. Do such > eyes have spiritual > significance? John Grimes > MSU __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Mar 1 04:36:17 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 04:36:17 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067826.23782.8881237814735346036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, Afghans in the US strongly appealed to President Reagan not to support certain groups, knowing their nature; but the President threw American support behind these groups because they were the most fanatical. These groups continued fighting each other after the Soviets were thrown out. Moreover, the Afghan militias existed well before the Soviet invasion -- they were a creation of Pakistan, at least, so you will find the claim here : http://www.jochen-hippler.de/Aufsatze/Afghanistan__Von_der__Volksdem/ afghanistan__von_der__volksdem.html The author claims that a Pakistani General told him that the Pakistani ISI began constituting the Afghan militias in 1972. AFAIK, Rabbani and Hekmatyar date from back then, etc. There is much to be said on the topic, but this is Indology. -Arun Gupta From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 06:16:28 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 06:16:28 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067832.23782.11011032524102642454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Suresh, Save your polemic. I am sure Dr Fosse can answer for himself. As for your generalization about ALL Muslims: >No Muslim, educated or not, intellectual or not, will >ever come out of the closet and condemn the acts of >the Taliban - the reason being, if they did condemn it, >then they are violating the teachings of Mohammed (their >prophet) and hence violating what is in koran. How could >they do it ? THIS IS ONLY PROOF OF YOUR POOR LOGICAL SENSE. LAST I HEARD THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD. SO I WONDER HOW YOU, A MUSLIM-HATER, CAN KNOW WHAT ALL - EACH AND EVERYONE OF THEM BELIEVE IN. >It is foolish to expect the muslim community >to condemn the taliban's action to destroy statues of >gods of other religions. In the eyes of hardcore Islamists, >statues of Buddha are idols of false gods which must be >destroyed as per Mohammed's words. The talibans are just >following what is in their religion, turning their clock >back to the 7-th and 8-th century !!! This is one side to >the reality which must not be forgotten !! WHAT EXACTLY WAS THE STATE OF ISLAM IN THE 7TH AND 8TH CENTURY? DO YOU EVEN KNOW? YOUR POOR KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY HAS BEEN SHOWN UP AS WELL AS WELL AS YOUR COMPLETE UNFAMILIARITY WITH THE KORAN. Please respond to my mail on logical grounds instead of making apologetic, genteel noises about "inappropriateness" and displaying prurient vindication. Your mail has exactly the tone of apology of a colonized type... And for once, just for once, stop parroting the views of the RSS, and try and debate beyond those crude stereotypes and bigotry. Yours-in-appropriateness Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Mar 1 08:02:50 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 08:02:50 +0000 Subject: bamiyan In-Reply-To: <002301c0a225$4a32b260$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227067838.23782.6361406393250465777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Rajesh Kochhar and Ravi Chaudhary for their sane and constructive comments. Any suggestions about the form such a communication should take? Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Rajesh Kochhar: >When there is fire, the first task is to put it out , not discuss how it >started. >May I suggest we focus our attention and energies on the problem at hand. >More specifically,can we do some thing to save the Bamiyan heritage? If >not, can we at least put our joint concern on record and convey it to >some suitable agency? Ravi Chaudhary: >Art and the appreciation for art, transcends all cultures, is universal. >The art in danger, is art that belongs to all of us, a legacy left to >mankind by the unknown great artists who created these wonderful sculptures >over two thousand years ago. > >The question to be addressed is what can be done if anything? > > >For starters perhaps ...a communication attempt by members of this list to >the leaders of countries who could influence these - would be destroyers >of art. From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Thu Mar 1 14:32:19 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 09:32:19 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067846.23782.6470839283714036303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The latest report from the BBC is that the demolitions have already begun with tanks and rocket launchers. There is no word on the Bamiyan statues specifically (but then they are surely not the only ones worth preserving). I'll just make the points that I think are important, and end my contribution (or hindrance) to this issue. Everyone's interest here is, or was, in the preservation of the statues. It may be too late for that now. The Taleban are in power in Afghanistan and can carry out the decision they have taken. Western governments at present have pretty much zero influence over them because the West has chosen a stance of unrelenting enmity to the Taleban. Perhaps some Sunni clerics and figures in Pakistan still have some influence, and if anyone knows who they are they should make every effort to get strong statements or fatwas from them. Apart from that, Indologists can probably register their unhappiness for the record as a group if they feel that is a record worth keeping. If Indologists (or anyone, really) want to make an effective difference to this sort of issue in the future they should be speaking out against the policy of isolating entire countries and starving their populations through UN sanctions. For example, I haven't heard Sumerologists or Assyriologists say a word about the effect that turning Iraq into a gigantic poorly stocked ration shop since 1991 has had on the preservation and maintenance of the Iraqi government's priceless collection of Babylonian, Assyrian, and other Mesopotamian relics. Who knows how much has already been lost there?. Lastly, commenting on the degree of fanaticism, folly, or other perceived qualities of the Taleban in particular or Afghans in general is squarely outside the professional competence of Indologists and serves no useful purpose. I have made my objections to Dr. Fosse's remarks clear enough that I think they need no restatement, except to say that his last note on the subject, like his first, displays prejudices and stereotypes that are best discussed elsewhere. I do apologise for the angry tone of my last email to him, which was quite inappropriate for this forum (but not for the content of its arguments). Regards, Rohan. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Mar 1 14:44:34 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 09:44:34 -0500 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227067848.23782.4764961668928092655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job posting is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact position posters directly for any further information. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl =========================== South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Librarian University of Illinois Library at Urbana-Champaign Position Available: April 1, 2001. A full time tenured or tenure-track faculty position. Duties & Responsibilities: Reporting to the Head of the Asian Library, the South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Librarian is responsible for all aspects of collection management and development for South Asia and Middle East, including selection of information resources, storage and weeding decisions, faculty liaison, collection interpretation, evaluation, budgetary management, and resource sharing. The librarian provides bibliographic and reference services to faculty, students, and visiting scholars, performs original cataloging and complex copy cataloging of Arabic and/or Indic languages publications, supervises support staff, serves as liaison with faculty and students for the Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, and represents the University in the national programs such as SAMP and MECAP. In addition, as one of four professional librarians in the Asian Library, the South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Librarian will be responsible for supervising one Asian Library processing function (e.g. acquisitions, cataloging, circulation), and will perform other responsibilities as assigned. Environment: The Asian Library is one of the six units within the Area Studies Division of the University Library system. It serves the faculty and students of the Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, the Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures, and the Center for East Asian and Pacific Studies, and members of the local community, as well as visiting scholars from across the nation and the world. Staff consists of 4 FTE professional librarians and 6 FTE support staff and student assistants. The Asian collection contains over 330,000 volumes, of which 130,000 volumes are South Asian and Middle Eastern language materials. In addition to Indic, Arabic, and Persian, the Asian Library includes an extensive collection of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean language materials. Qualifications: Required: MLS from an ALA accredited library school or its equivalent; strong English-language communication skills; linguistic and subject expertise in Arabic and/or Indic languages as well as knowledge and understanding of South Asia and/or Middle East culture, and willingness to develop and supervise the area of non-specialization; knowledge of or experience in reference and collection development; cataloging experience, including experience with LC classification, LCSH, LCRI, AACR2, MARC format and familiarity with a bibliographic utility, preferably OCLC; knowledge of library applications of computer technology and online databases and electronic information; a strong commitment to excellence in public service and the ability to work effectively in a culturally diverse environment; demonstrated initiative, flexibility, creativity, and the ability to handle multiple responsibilities; evidence of research orientation and ability to meet university requirements for promotion and tenure. Preferred: Working knowledge of Persian; evidence of an understanding of the publishing and book trade industry in South Asia and/or the Middle East as well as methods of acquiring materials; the ability to work effectively with faculty, students, staff, and the community; excellent oral, written, and interpersonal communication skills; supervisory experience; experience in an academic or research library. Desired: Coursework or advanced degree in South Asian and/or Middle Eastern studies or related field of study; at least two years experience in a South Asian and/or Middle Eastern studies library in the US. Salary & Rank: Salary is competitive, and is commensurate with experience and credentials for appointment as Assistant or Associate Professor. Librarians have faculty rank and must demonstrate excellence in librarianship, research and university/professional/community service in order to meet university standards for tenure and promotion. Terms of Appointment: Twelve month appointment; 24 work days vacation per year; 11 paid holidays; 12 annual sick leave days (cumulative), plus an additional 13 days (non-cumulative) per year if necessary; health insurance, requiring a small co-payment, is provided to employee (coverage for dependents may be purchased); participation in State Universities Retirement System is compulsory (includes several private options), 8% of staff member's salary is withheld and is tax exempt until retirement); newly hired university employees are covered by the Medicare portion of Social Security and are subject to its deduction. Campus and Community: The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is a comprehensive, major public university (Research Level I) that is ranked among the best in the country. It provides undergraduate and graduate education in more than 150 fields of study and conducts both theoretical and applied research, and provides public service to the state and the nation. The University has an administrative, academic, and support staff of over 12,000. Many of the academic units of the university are recognized for national leadership in instruction and research. Detailed information about the University can be found on its web page, http://www.uiuc.edu. The UIUC Library is the largest state university library and the third largest academic library in the United States with a collection of more than nine million volumes. The Library employs approximately 100 library faculty and 300 library staff. The Library's web page is http://www.library.uiuc.edu. Urbana-Champaign, located about 150 miles south of Chicago, has a combined population of over 100,000 including a student population of over 36,000. Champaign County is home to more than 175,000 people and provides the advantages of a rural setting with the cultural benefits of a major university and an urbanized area; for more information see http://www.cuout.com. Apply: Send letter of application and complete resume with the names, addresses, telephone numbers and e-mail addresses (where available) of three references to: Cindy Kelly, Head, Library Human Resources, University of Illinois Library at Urbana-Champaign, 1408 West Gregory Drive, Urbana, IL 61801. Phone 217-333-8169. E-mail mokelly at uiuc.edu. Electronic applications are acceptable initially, but must be followed by a hard copy with signature. Deadline: In order to ensure maximum consideration, applications and nominations should be received by March 1, 2001--extended deadline: 16 March 2001. The search will remain open until an appointment is made. THE UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS IS AN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION/EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Mar 1 15:13:41 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 10:13:41 -0500 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: <01C0A240.9DBA1AC0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227067856.23782.16075237279896497564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This discussion is now futile since the statue has just been destroyed. Lars Martin Fosse has written as follows: >This is an oversimplification. The Taliban regime is behind a number of >acts that may be construed as inimical towards the US and other western >countries, such as support of "terrorism" and drug smuggling. It is irrelevant whether they are inimical to US or not. Once in a while you get some leaders who claim to be more sincere in their faith than others. We have seen it happen in China during cultural revolution and in Combodia during its own cultural revolution and unless it is checked, is going to happen in India if VHP and RSS get into an absolute majority. US itself if going through a minor cultural revolution with the election of Bush with help of right wing Christians and equally conservative majority in the Supreme Court.. His initiatives already announced foretell of more to come that will tear down the separation of church and state regardless of what he publicly says. --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Predestination was doomed from the start. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Mar 1 15:29:30 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 10:29:30 -0500 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: <6ops9t8c2ino8bmfsad30rhts0g79d7me2@4ax.com> Message-ID: <161227067860.23782.6120066023288641556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Aditya Mishra's posting reminds me of what I wrote elsewhere in the context: It is not impossible for religious fanatics in any tradition to engage in outrageous behavior, quoting from their scriptures to justify their actions, and (in many instances) they would be perfectly on target too, because (God knows) many scriptures and canonical texts have elements which, irrespective of their appropriateness in times past, are intolerable, unacceptable, and worthy of condemnation by all decent and enlightened people today, whatever their religious affiliation. Every human institution, of no matter what antiquity, inherent merit, or positive attributes, needs to change and evolve, or else it stagnates and rots, and in this interwoven world, its stench can affect other human beings too. Positive transformations within a religious system can occur only when it is fortunate to produce bold visionaries, enlightened religious leaders and thoughtful scholars. This is happening in a number of contexts all over the world, but there is potential for the opposite to happen to hapen as well. V. V. Raman From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 1 10:12:15 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 11:12:15 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067840.23782.9429731002988397592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU [SMTP:rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU] skrev 1. mars 2001 02:12: Congratulations on a fine piece of rhetoric! I realize that this thread has already generated so much heated mail that it is unwise to continue. I'll therefore give a few comments and then step down from my soapbox. > The one with > real effect is the Washington policy (faithfully implemented by the > UN) of economically punishing a people (16 million Afghans) who are > already known to be in such drastic straits (leave aside for the > moment the actions of Washington that helped bring this about) that > many are at present starving to death; this in retaliation for no more > than the exercise by the government of the Taleban of their right of > sovereignty under the UN charter (the same right under which Norway > refuses to extradite suspects facing the death penalty to the US). This is an oversimplification. The Taliban regime is behind a number of acts that may be construed as inimical towards the US and other western countries, such as support of "terrorism" and drug smuggling. Since the West has behaved atrociously in a number of places of this world, I won't make a moral song and dance about it, but I will suggest that the Taliban are faced with the dilemma of the man in the lion's den: if you walk into a lion's den and get mauled by the lion, you can blame the lion for being cruel and insensitive, or you can blame yourself for being stupid. My point is that the Taliban have been asking for trouble. They should have been busy rebuilding their country and soliciting help where help could be had, instead they invite enmity from potential friends. > This being an academic list, I would expect people to be wary of > attributing 'inherent' qualities to whole populations (as Dr. Fosse > does when he accuses "Afghans" as a whole of "religious fanaticism") > before first considering contingent responses to circumstances. First of all: if I were to say that Germans in the thirties were Nazis, it would normally be understood that not ALL Germans were Nazis, only a large group of them. When I say that Afghans can be accused of religious fanaticism, I am not saying that they ALL are religious fanatics, but that there are enough fanatics around to make a difference. Your literalism does you little credit. Normal discourse is usually shorthand. Given > first that the rise of the Taleban coincided with utter despair among > ordinary Afghans that the ongoing war among gangs of rival mujahideen > -- all of them established with American arms and money -- could ever > be resolved and law and order established, there are excellent reasons > (not forgetting the alleged Pakistani support for the Taleban) other > than such inherent fanaticism for the Taleban's rise, and this has > been widely commented on. I am also aware of the background for the Taliban's rise to power. That is part of the Afghan tragedy. However, explaining why the Taliban came to power is not quite the same thing as excusing their actions, which could at least be said to be unwise. Given second that the Taleban's > announcement coincides with increasing starvation and despair in > Afghanistan, where prices have at least doubled following the UN > sanctions, and given that the Taleban have been in power for over four > years without destroying the Bamiyan statues, there is every argument > for seeing their latest policy too as a contingent response to > desperate circumstances rather than as an inherent outgrowth of their > 'fanaticism'. It seems to me that this is what I suggested myself, in a slightly different language. I interpret the Taliban threat to destroy statues as a ploy to gain political or economic advantages. As far as I remember, they have made similar threats before. > Dr. Fosse - when you, as an Indologist, a Norwegian, a human being, In this context, I think I'll settle for being human being. I don't speak on behalf of Norway. > are complicit in the international policy that says the Taleban > government must be treated as international pariahs and the Afghan > people as legitimate casualties of an extradition dispute, what right > do you have to protest when they behave desperately and irrationally? Did I say they should be treated as international pariahs? I don't think I did. My point is, however, that they are not simply behaving desparately, they are being stupid. They have other options, such as not to support Islamic militant groups in other countries (and Osama bin Laden), stopping the export of heroin (they banned it recently, after the crops failed, I believe, but how serious this is, remains to be seen). Etc. And they might cooperate better with the aid organizations that are already in Afghanistan. > When the Afghans have been subjected first to widespread destruction > by the Russians, then to the funding and arming of disparate private > groups by the wealthiest country in the world to the point where the > nation's capital became the permanent battleground of those groups, > and then to the active and effective hostility of that same country > with all other nations (except a few like Pakistan and Turkmenistan) > acquiescing, by what logic can you attribute their adoption of extreme > ideologies and desperate (and unpleasant) actions to their inherent > failings rather than to the pressure of contingent circumstance? You forget that the policies of the Taliban make it difficult for a Western nation to support them. Don't forget the way they treat women: how would you "sell" this to female Western voters? I don't buy the idea that Taliban politics are merely the result of contingent circumstance. Their cultural policies are a tragedy, destroying Afghanistan's own heritage, and this has not been forced upon them by the West. But I will concede that Western policies toward Afghanistan have been detrimental to Afghan interest, and, as I already said, callous. As for the infighting among the various mujahideen groups, I believe M. Hasan Kakar in "Afghanistan. The Soviet Invasion and the Afghan Response, 1979-1982" claims that the Pakistanis generated the split among the Afghan groups in the Pakistani interest. However, I believe that the Afghans were always somewhat divided, so that a split could easily have been generated anyway. The Pakistanis were responsible for the distribution of American aid to the mujahideen, and they explicitly supported the religious groups, again in their own interest. Which perhaps explains some of the religious fanaticism. > Forgive me, but if your hypocrisy is not clear to you it is quite > revolting to me; you sound like a German of, say, 1941, complaining > that Poles are violent terrorists by nature. Oh dear, here I go again, being revolting. I really shouldn't do it! Rohit Chopra wrote: >I second that, it seems almost to comply to the classic definition of >orientalist stereotyping. It is interesting that if a white European or >American group or individual commits a reprehensible action, it is always >made out to be the case of an "pathological, disturbed individual" or the >work of some aberrant group (such as David Korresh's cult for instance). We are not talking about individuals or groups, but of a political movement. If you care to check out European history and political debate, you will find that we have had our own "Taliban movements" (albeit a few centuries ago), and we have had modern movements that were just as reprehensible as the Taliban, if not more so. And we have criticized them in the same manner. This is not a case of "white vs. brown", but a case of "the Enlightenment" and "liberalism" vs. medieval theocracy. In other constellations, it might be a case of "the Enlightenment" and "liberalism" vs. fascism or some other reactionary or authoritarion ideology. (I here use "the Enlightenment" and "liberalism" as symbolic of a set of attitudes and values). >Thus neo-nazi white >supremacist groups are conveniently designated part of a lunatic fringe in >chiefly white, western societies, whereas the Taliban is supposed to >represent the innate "fanaticism" of all Afghans or even Islam. The neo-nazi groups are (for the time being, at least) a lunatic fringe. This is both a statistical and a political fact: they are simply marginal. The Taliban are not marginal. I did not say that the Taliban represent the "innate fanaticism" of all Afghans or even Islam". Here, you are putting words in my mouth, and you are doing so maliciously. Ideologically, the Taliban seem to be fairly isolated, even the Iranians are critical of them. Islam is not a monolithic phenomenon, and it would be idiotic to claim that the Taliban are "typical" of that religion. Enough said. Except: I still don't fathom why the greatest culprit of them all, the Soviet Union, is so conveniently forgotten in this debate. The Russians are now busy doing to Tchechenya what they were doing to Afghanistan, using more or less the same tactics and methods. The West is not exactly standing up to them (rather to the contrary, I suspect), but that does not unburden the Russians of all guilt. All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Mar 1 16:22:36 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 11:22:36 -0500 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067862.23782.12253409266336655740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen Satkurunathan has written as follows: >Muslim (political) party to urge Taliban against destroying statues > >http://www.indiaabroaddaily.com/2001/02/28/28taliban.html > >Rauf Hakeem > >"This decree is wrong and has been taken without the proper understanding >of Islamic tolerance," said Hakeem. He appealed to all governments to join >in pressuring the Afghan authorities from carrying out the order He can say anything because he lives in Sri Lanka which is a Buddhist majority state where Buddhists are no more tolerant of minorities than Afghanitanis. --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: If I save the whales, where do I keep them? From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 1 19:24:45 2001 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 11:24:45 -0800 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art (Yahoo News) In-Reply-To: <000b01c0a211$cfe1cf40$149dfea9@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <161227067870.23782.7310644830009816874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010301/ts/afghan_statues_dc_4.html Afghans Smash Ancient Statues, Defy World Appeals ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - The radical Taliban movement began smashing all statues from Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s rich cultural past Thursday, turning its back on urgent international appeals to save the ancient artifacts. In Kabul, Mullah Qudratullah Jamal, the ruling Taliban's information and culture minister, said centers where the campaign had been unleashed included Bamiyan Province -- site of two soaring statues of the Buddha hewn from a solid cliff that are the most famous relics of Afghanistan's history. ``All statues will be destroyed,'' he told reporters. ''Whatever means of destruction are needed to demolish the statues will be used.'' ``The work began early during the day. All of the statues are to be smashed. This also covers the idols in Bamiyan,'' he said. Russia, Germany, India and Pakistan condemned the destruction and appealed to the Taliban to reconsider. International alarm was first sparked Monday, when Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar ordered the smashing of all statues, including the two famous Buddhas that soar 125 feet and 174 feet above Bamiyan. The United Nations (news - web sites) cultural agency UNESCO Wednesday appealed directly to the Taliban -- a fundamentalist movement that regards all human likenesses of divinity to be un-Islamic -- to reverse its decision. ``UNESCO considers this to be a crisis,'' Christian Manhart, head of UNESCO's Asian division in the cultural heritage department, told Reuters. Muslim Pakistan, one of Taliban's very few foreign supporters, joined the international chorus Thursday. ``Pakistan attaches great importance to and supports the preservation of the world's historical, cultural and religious heritage,'' the foreign ministry said. ``We appeal to the Afghan government to take measures to fully protect Afghanistan's rich historical monuments, sites and artifacts which are part of the world's cultural heritage.'' India Vows Action India said it would try to stop the destruction. ``The government of India will raise this issue at every international forum including the United Nations. We will make all attempts to stop the demolition of Lord Buddha's statue,'' parliamentary affairs minister Pramod Mahajan told parliament. ``This is not only a statue, but a legacy of humanity. Nobody should demolish it,'' he said. Thailand and Sri Lanka -- both largely Buddhist nations -- have made similar appeals. Earlier this week, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) urged the Taliban ``to do all in their power to preserve the unique and irreplaceable relics of Afghanistan's rich heritage, both Islamic and pre-Islamic,'' a spokesman said. Russia denounced the Taliban step as vandalism. ``This intention (to destroy the statues) can only be classed as an assault on cultural and historical treasures, not only of the Afghan people but of world civilization,'' the Russian foreign ministry said in a statement Thursday. ``The Taliban's vandalism against material objects of the rich spiritual heritage of the ancient Afghan world shows their clear enmity to common human values,'' it added. Germany condemned the Taliban action. ``Germany is appalled by the willful destruction of cultural artifacts in Afghanistan. The damage to culturally unique Buddha statues by the Taliban cannot be justified,'' the foreign ministry said in a statement issued in Berlin. Taliban officials insist there will no reversal. Statues Declared Un-Islamic The Taliban has steadily conquered most of Afghanistan in recent years, and now controls its cities and highways. The destruction of artifacts -- also under way in the national museum in Kabul, which housed a prized collection of early Buddhist statues -- has inflicted new damage to the Taliban's already poor ties with most countries. Heavily criticized for its restrictions on women and for its public executions, the Taliban is recognized by only three states: Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan has suffered destruction at the hands of many conquerors in the past. Most recently it suffered a Soviet invasion in 1979, an anti-communist insurgency backed by the West in the 1980s and a civil war in the 1990s. The United Nations estimates that up to 600,000 Afghans have been displaced or have become refugees this year because of conflict and a devastating drought. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 1 21:23:49 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 13:23:49 -0800 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067877.23782.8029109910502768466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Send a letter expressing your opinion of the Taliban's proposed >destruction of the Baniyan Buddhas and other artifacts to: > > >Mullah Rahmatullah Kakayzada Khybanay Shamsheer >Consul-General >Consulate of the Taliban Islamic Movement of Afghanistan >Karachi Defence Housing Association (D.H.A.) >Bungalow No. 33 >Street No. 27 >District 11, Phase V (five) >Karachi >PAKISTAN > > >John C. Huntington All folks of South Asia have lost irreplaceable treasures today. Indeed lovers of Indic art incl. art historians Huntingtons (John/Susan) will mark this as sad. May be a good website devoted to Afghan art and urging to save what is left will help. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Mar 1 07:57:39 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 13:27:39 +0530 Subject: bamiyan Message-ID: <161227067836.23782.9436731751924676274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When there is fire, the first task is to put it out , not discuss how it started. May I suggest we focus our attention and energies on the problem at hand. More specifically,can we do some thing to save the Bamiyan heritage? If not, can we at least put our joint concern on record and convey it to some suitable agency? rajesh kochhar From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 18:52:15 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 13:52:15 -0500 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067866.23782.8191359813401859652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bob Peck wrote.. >As an example, Matthew 6:6 becomes an Eastern sadhana on the power in >the >lower ?heart? or gut. Matthew 6.6 works on the gut, but I think it is not direct. It first prompts us to get into our shells and be what we really are, then springs a surprise by offering the whole wide world; typical of Jesus overflowing with leadership. It is like indra who liberates the intellect (sEndra yoniH yatrAsou kezAnto vivartate vyapohya zIrSa kapAle.. Tai.U.), generating udAna, which indirectly hits other parts like heart/gut /pelvis etc in the next cycle. So my conclusion is, it works on head and liberates it first, and the liberated head will now lead the whole body. Count me out of the regular gang of head and ego bashing philosophers (east and west). Either there are no tools for liberation or everything is a tool; you can't have some tools like heart etc excluding head/ego. The above argument also explains my position on tantra etc: Even the weakest person on the the earth has enough supply of the so called "kundalini" etc. Research is fine, but there is no need to raise the supply as tantrics want it. The problem is mismanagement of demand which is controlled by head/ego. The way to handle them is by training the head in leadership which prompts renunciation, thereby managing the demand. All the best Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 1 22:03:20 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 14:03:20 -0800 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067879.23782.4337716666590824639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> this iconoclasm is stunning. They dared to kick the violin down the street. try to Relax and move forward. Make new art. It should be abstract and non-representational. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 1 15:00:37 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 15:00:37 +0000 Subject: Librarian position at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign--deadline extended (fwd) Message-ID: <161227067851.23782.615309874169984068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:03:35 -0600 From: Hans Henrich Hock To: aiis at uchicago.edu, arm2 at email.psu.edu, Subject: Librarian position at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign--deadline extended Dear Friends and Colleagues, Would you please help us in publicizing the fact that the application deadline for the position of South Asian and Middle Eastern Librarian at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign has been extended? We are naturally very keen on getting a good number of qualified applicants, so that the eventually selected candidate will help complement our revived and very active Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies. The job description is given below. Thanks very much for all your help and best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock Director, Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign website: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Librarian University of Illinois Library at Urbana-Champaign Position Available: April 1, 2001. A full time tenured or tenure-track faculty position. Duties & Responsibilities: Reporting to the Head of the Asian Library, the South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Librarian is responsible for all aspects of collection management and development for South Asia and Middle East, including selection of information resources, storage and weeding decisions, faculty liaison, collection interpretation, evaluation, budgetary management, and resource sharing. The librarian provides bibliographic and reference services to faculty, students, and visiting scholars, performs original cataloging and complex copy cataloging of Arabic and/or Indic languages publications, supervises support staff, serves as liaison with faculty and students for the Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, and represents the University in the national programs such as SAMP and MECAP. In addition, as one of four professional librarians in the Asian Library, the South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Librarian will be responsible for supervising one Asian Library processing function (e.g. acquisitions, cataloging, circulation), and will perform other responsibilities as assigned. Environment: The Asian Library is one of the six units within the Area Studies Division of the University Library system. It serves the faculty and students of the Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies, the Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures, and the Center for East Asian and Pacific Studies, and members of the local community, as well as visiting scholars from across the nation and the world. Staff consists of 4 FTE professional librarians and 6 FTE support staff and student assistants. The Asian collection contains over 330,000 volumes, of which 130,000 volumes are South Asian and Middle Eastern language materials. In addition to Indic, Arabic, and Persian, the Asian Library includes an extensive collection of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean language materials. Qualifications: Required: MLS from an ALA accredited library school or its equivalent; strong English-language communication skills; linguistic and subject expertise in Arabic and/or Indic languages as well as knowledge and understanding of South Asia and/or Middle East culture, and willingness to develop and supervise the area of non-specialization; knowledge of or experience in reference and collection development; cataloging experience, including experience with LC classification, LCSH, LCRI, AACR2, MARC format and familiarity with a bibliographic utility, preferably OCLC; knowledge of library applications of computer technology and online databases and electronic information; a strong commitment to excellence in public service and the ability to work effectively in a culturally diverse environment; demonstrated initiative, flexibility, creativity, and the ability to handle multiple responsibilities; evidence of research orientation and ability to meet university requirements for promotion and tenure. Preferred: Working knowledge of Persian; evidence of an understanding of the publishing and book trade industry in South Asia and/or the Middle East as well as methods of acquiring materials; the ability to work effectively with faculty, students, staff, and the community; excellent oral, written, and interpersonal communication skills; supervisory experience; experience in an academic or research library. Desired: Coursework or advanced degree in South Asian and/or Middle Eastern studies or related field of study; at least two years experience in a South Asian and/or Middle Eastern studies library in the US. Salary & Rank: Salary is competitive, and is commensurate with experience and credentials for appointment as Assistant or Associate Professor. Librarians have faculty rank and must demonstrate excellence in librarianship, research and university/professional/community service in order to meet university standards for tenure and promotion. Terms of Appointment: Twelve month appointment; 24 work days vacation per year; 11 paid holidays; 12 annual sick leave days (cumulative), plus an additional 13 days (non-cumulative) per year if necessary; health insurance, requiring a small co-payment, is provided to employee (coverage for dependents may be purchased); participation in State Universities Retirement System is compulsory (includes several private options), 8% of staff member's salary is withheld and is tax exempt until retirement); newly hired university employees are covered by the Medicare portion of Social Security and are subject to its deduction. Campus and Community: The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is a comprehensive, major public university (Research Level I) that is ranked among the best in the country. It provides undergraduate and graduate education in more than 150 fields of study and conducts both theoretical and applied research, and provides public service to the state and the nation. The University has an administrative, academic, and support staff of over 12,000. Many of the academic units of the university are recognized for national leadership in instruction and research. Detailed information about the University can be found on its web page, http://www.uiuc.edu. The UIUC Library is the largest state university library and the third largest academic library in the United States with a collection of more than nine million volumes. The Library employs approximately 100 library faculty and 300 library staff. The Library's web page is http://www.library.uiuc.edu. Urbana-Champaign, located about 150 miles south of Chicago, has a combined population of over 100,000 including a student population of over 36,000. Champaign County is home to more than 175,000 people and provides the advantages of a rural setting with the cultural benefits of a major university and an urbanized area; for more information see http://www.cuout.com. Apply: Send letter of application and complete resume with the names, addresses, telephone numbers and e-mail addresses (where available) of three references to: Cindy Kelly, Head, Library Human Resources, University of Illinois Library at Urbana-Champaign, 1408 West Gregory Drive, Urbana, IL 61801. Phone 217-333-8169. E-mail mokelly at uiuc.edu. Electronic applications are acceptable initially, but must be followed by a hard copy with signature. Deadline: In order to ensure maximum consideration, applications and nominations should be received by March 1, 2001--extended deadline: 16 March 2001. The search will remain open until an appointment is made. THE UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS IS AN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION/EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER From juftina at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 15:09:02 2001 From: juftina at HOTMAIL.COM (tina debruyn) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 15:09:02 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067854.23782.15064627810789669627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sorry but i think it is a shame that you are fighting about this instead of talking constructively!We all must feel sad about the fact that a part of human art will be destroyed in a few days! Tina >From: Rohit Chopra >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art >Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 02:41:08 +0000 > >>Dr. Fosse - when you, as an Indologist, a Norwegian, a human being, >>are complicit in the international policy that says the Taleban >>government must be treated as international pariahs and the Afghan >>people as legitimate casualties of an extradition dispute, what right >>do you have to protest when they behave desperately and irrationally? >>When the Afghans have been subjected first to widespread destruction >>by the Russians, then to the funding and arming of disparate private >>groups by the wealthiest country in the world to the point where the >>nation's capital became the permanent battleground of those groups, >>and then to the active and effective hostility of that same country >>with all other nations (except a few like Pakistan and Turkmenistan) >>acquiescing, by what logic can you attribute their adoption of extreme >>ideologies and desperate (and unpleasant) actions to their inherent >>failings rather than to the pressure of contingent circumstance? >>Forgive me, but if your hypocrisy is not clear to you it is quite >>revolting to me; you sound like a German of, say, 1941, complaining >>that Poles are violent terrorists by nature. >> > >I second that, it seems almost to comply to the classic definition of >orientalist stereotyping. It is interesting that if a white European or >American group or individual commits a reprehensible action, it is always >made out to be the case of an "pathological, disturbed individual" or the >work of some aberrant group (such as David Korresh's cult for instance). >This is the idea the western media reinforces and one that echoes popular >western sentiment as well. However, if any other population commits the >same >action, then a generalization is made about the innate negative qualities >of >that group, people, population or even civilization. Thus neo-nazi white >supremacist groups are conveniently designated part of a lunatic fringe in >chiefly white, western societies, whereas the Taliban is supposed to >represent the innate "fanaticism" of all Afghans or even Islam. > >What is equally sad is that an equal number of Indians on this list jump to >the same easy conclusions mirroring in the in-built assumptions of a >centuries-old means of representing the geographical equivalent of the >subcontinent. This is one of the infections of colonialism, that >ironically, >infects most strongly those who stridently makes claims about the purity of >Indian (which, in their opinion, is Hindu) culture. Unfortunately there >still is a reliance on the categories of neo-liberal democracy, which is >based on so-called universals that in actu have their provincial roots in >European history, and thus innately endorse a white, male ideology. The >same >neo-liberal democracy allows for affluent western countries to choke third >world countries in the name of "justice" or "world peace". Additionally, >the >models of "civil society" cannot account for the historical specificty of >formulations of community in cultures other than those European provinces >where these models were formulated. Arms exports to the third world form a >significant source of revenue for affluent developed and postindustrial >nations. It is on the basis of this money that the west can afford to make >those "democratic, liberal" generalizations about "fanatics" and Islam. > >Rohit > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 1 15:25:25 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 15:25:25 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067858.23782.5266014001599644861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:41:26 -0500, L. Suresh Kumar-LSK wrote: >vaNakkam > >>> Mr. Oberoi's comments are, at the least, uncalled for, >>> inappropriate, and unhelpful. > >And so are the comments of RohitChopra who seconded >RohanOberoi's ideas !! Is this any exception/surprise ??? > >No Muslim, educated or not, intellectual or not, will >ever come out of the closet and condemn the acts of >the Taliban - the reason being, if they did condemn it, >then they are violating the teachings of Mohammed (their >prophet) and hence violating what is in koran. How could >they do it ? Muslim (political) party to urge Taliban against destroying statues http://www.indiaabroaddaily.com/2001/02/28/28taliban.html Rauf Hakeem "This decree is wrong and has been taken without the proper understanding of Islamic tolerance," said Hakeem. He appealed to all governments to join in pressuring the Afghan authorities from carrying out the order Raveen From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 20:58:01 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 15:58:01 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Message-ID: <161227067872.23782.1137264547383716512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members: I received this in my inbox with an address to write to in order to protest the destruction of the monuments in Bamiyan etc. By the way, many Muslims are appalled at this too: many of them say tolerance is a major part of the Muslim religion. Lynken Ghose >Send a letter expressing your opinion of the Taliban's proposed >destruction of the Baniyan Buddhas and other artifacts to: > > >Mullah Rahmatullah Kakayzada Khybanay Shamsheer >Consul-General >Consulate of the Taliban Islamic Movement of Afghanistan >Karachi Defence Housing Association (D.H.A.) >Bungalow No. 33 >Street No. 27 >District 11, Phase V (five) >Karachi >PAKISTAN > > >John C. Huntington _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 21:06:02 2001 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 16:06:02 -0500 Subject: Idolaters (Plight of Buddhist art) Message-ID: <161227067874.23782.6988287165234373373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir 9.5: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Sahih Bukhari, Book 75: Volume 8, Book 75, Number 345: Narrated Jarir: Allah's Apostle said to me. "Will you relieve me from Dhi-al-Khalasa? " Dhi-al-Khalasa was an idol which the people used to worship and it was called Al-Ka'ba al Yamaniyya. I said, "O Allah's Apostle I am a man who can't sit firm on horses." So he stroked my chest (with his hand) and said, "O Allah! Make him firm and make him a guiding and well-guided man." So I went out with fifty (men) from my tribe of Ahrnas. (The sub-narrator, Sufyan, quoting Jarir, perhaps said, "I went out with a group of men from my nation.") and came to Dhi-al-Khalasa and burnt it, and then came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have not come to you till I left it like a camel with a skin disease." The Prophet then invoked good upon Ahmas and their cavalry (fighters). Rustam ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 22:45:14 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 17:45:14 -0500 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067881.23782.15354602735460394997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are we the control room to discuss current events? Why not let us go back to the sweet old topic discontinued in December Re: Violence in Indian historical process? We can take up Afghan stuff when it becomes history. Have fun Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 1 17:24:16 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 18:24:16 +0100 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067864.23782.9798854208180826889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the Taliban are really destroying the statues, I owe them an apology. They are sincere in their fanaticism, however deluded, whereas I thought they were really asking for money or political concessions. As for Mr. Oberoi's apology, it is accepted. But he should not feel too contrite. I am used to the rhetorical flourishes on this list, and I would not state my opinions on this or that if I were afraid of other people's opinions, or for that matter of their anger. I can live with Mr. Oberoi's views on me, just as I am sure that he can live with my views on him (they are not quite so angry). All the best, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 1 19:17:33 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 19:17:33 +0000 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067868.23782.4894373068668065366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know why secular Indians should accuse Indologists of Eurocentrism, when they lament the destructive policies of the Afghan Taliban. I do not know why Hindutva-vadi Indians should accuse the same Indologists of Eurocentrism, when they reject the out-of-India theory of Aryan origins. I hope Indians, secular or otherwise, can see things from a balanced perspective, instead of boiling down everything to conspiracy theories. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Mar 2 01:43:27 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 20:43:27 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067887.23782.17016378052498756844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vaNakkam A personal note : I and my family still have excellent cordial relations with our Muslim neighbors for over 30 years as close family friends. I am no Muslim hater. Hatred & Anger will destroy oneself eventually. ----- "Islamic tolerance" - Is this not a contradiction in itself ? Raveen-ji pointed out this news item. Does this say anything except the unwritten rule of exceptions to everything ? No. Its fine to condemn this from SriLanka, but from within Afghanistan ? Why is that we dont hear strong condemnation to the effect that the destruction of idols and statues is against Koran/Islam from, let us say, Pakistan/Bangladesh/ MiddleEastern nations and notably from SaudiArabia ?? Muslims or Muslim nations urging the Taliban from destroying these statues to preserve art/heritage is one thing. To say such destruction is against Islam is another. We need to understand the difference between the views of a Muslim person both as an individual and as a Muslim. As an individual, this person could speak out his/her thoughts. As a Muslim, it is next to impossible for the entire Muslim community to denounce what Mohammed did several centuries ago - destruction of statues and idols of gods/goddesses of other religions. In the views of hardcore Islam followers like Taliban, ( those who are members of Taliban and others elsewhere who are in line with the ideas of Taliban ) - it is just impossible for these people to condemn the destruction of statues and idols of other cultures/religions. A person born into a Christian or a Hindu family could live as an atheist in their adult life. No one can force them. This person has denounced his/her belief in the Gods/Goddesses of the religion of their parents. But can a person born in a Muslim family denounce Allah and lead a life of a atheist publicly ? Privately, one could. From the Koran, this person cannot denounce any other God/Goddess as Koran says all other Gods/Goddesses are false and Allah is the only true God. So if this Muslim person denounces Allah, he/she ceases to become a Muslim immediately and is labelled a Kafir or an infidel. http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/014.qmt.html#014.035 http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html#021.052 to http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/021.qmt.html#021.059 Similarly condemning the acts of Taliban is fine personally as individuals. But to say, 'this is against Islam', is saying, what Mohammed did several centuries ago was wrong, & this would lead them earning a fatwa. Some argue that this is a way of the Talibans to attract attention to the internal problems in their nation. This is like keeping on connecting two points on a paper via several curvy lines avoiding the shortest way - a simple straight line. Can one then deny the straight line is the only way to connect the two points ? No. Because these two points can be connected via 1000s of curved lines. To keep repeating Islam is a peaceful tolerant religion is just ignoring the straight line between two points and focussing on the curvy lines. Whether this is deliberate or unintentional, is left to those who say it. I request members to read the links at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/muslim-politician/messagesearch?query=democrac y%20is Here is one observation ( of course this person is only saying his views and not on behalf of all Muslims ) ---- from - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/muslim-politician/message/552 But what do we make of a concept of "Islamic democracy"? I agree; Iran's system is corrupt and needs accountability and reform. But "popular rule"? How Islamic is the concept? Often times, it seems Khatami is just out to take any interesting Western idea and force its Islamization. One cannot take a few ideas from the West and ignore the rest. The basic concept of democracy is, must we be reminded, un-Islamic. There is no concept of popular sovereignty. One may make an argument for popular accountability, in light of the rule of God, but often times, I wonder what "Islamic democracy" really means. After all, does this mean political parties? Advocating blatantly un-Islamic ideas such as secularism? Or rather Islamic parties of different concerns and orientations? I'd be interested in other people's opinions. ---- Right from the time, the Semitic religions came to this earth, we have noticed the death and destruction of other civilizations. It is just one more act of savagery to that list. And it is sad. vaNakkam - Suresh ----- Original Message ----- From: Raveen Satkurunathan To: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 10:25 AM Subject: Re: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art > On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:41:26 -0500, L. Suresh Kumar-LSK > wrote: > > >vaNakkam > > > >No Muslim, educated or not, intellectual or not, will > >ever come out of the closet and condemn the acts of > >the Taliban - the reason being, if they did condemn it, > >then they are violating the teachings of Mohammed (their > >prophet) and hence violating what is in koran. How could > >they do it ? > > Muslim (political) party to urge Taliban against destroying statues > > http://www.indiaabroaddaily.com/2001/02/28/28taliban.html From ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Mar 2 05:19:16 2001 From: ljmccrea at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Lawrence Mccrea) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 23:19:16 -0600 Subject: Summer Sanskrit at University of Chicago Message-ID: <161227067892.23782.14295683767896053887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *************************************************************************************************** SUMMER SANSKRIT AT UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO This summer the Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago will be offering intensive courses in Introductory (first year), Intermediate (second year) and Advanced (third/fourth year) Sanskrit. The courses run from June 25 through August 24, 2001. Descriptions follow: INTRODUCTORY SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3 The first two sections of the course sequence are spent mastering the reading and writing of the Devanagari script and studying the grammar of the classical Sanskrit language. The remaining section is devoted to the reading of simple Sanskrit texts, reinforcing the students? grammatical knowledge. The aim is to bring students to the point where they are comfortably able, with the aid of a dictionary, to read simple narrative Sanskrit. Offered as part of The Summer Institute for Ancient and Medieval Languages. (9 weeks, June 25 - August 24, 10:00 - 12:00 AM, MTWThF, Instructor: Yigal Bronner, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations) INTERMEDIATE SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3 This course sequence is designed for students who have studied the basics of Classical Sanskrit grammar and have some experience in reading simple Sanskrit texts. The courses will consist of the reading of excerpts from Sanskrit epic, dramatic and poetic works and, depending on time available and student interest, narrative and/or philosophical prose. The goal of the course is to develop facility in reading by exposing students to a variety of styes and genres of Classical Sanskrit literature. Prerequisite: At least one year prior study of Sanskrit. Offered as part of The Summer Institute for Ancient and Medieval Languages. (9 weeks, June 25 - August 24, 10:00 - 12:00 AM, MTWThF, Instructor: Lawrence McCrea, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations) ADVANCED SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3 This course sequence is designed for students with significant experience in the reading of Sanskrit texts. The courses will consist of the reading and analysis of extended portions of Classicl Sanskrit philosophical and poetic works. The goal of the course is to give students a subtantive acquaintance with some of the major monuments of Sanskrit thought and culture. Prerequisite: At least two years prior study of Sanskrit. Offered as part of The Summer Institute for Ancient and Medieval Languages. (9 weeks, June 25 - August 24, 12:00 - 2:00 PM, MTWThF, Instructor: Lawrence McCrea, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations) For further information on tuition, registration, fees, etc., please contact: Summer Session Office Graham School of General Studies University of Chicago 5835 South Kimbark Ave., Judd 207 Chicago, IL 60637-1608 Telephone: 773/702-6033 Fax: 773/702-6814 Web-site: http://grahamschool.uchicago.edu/summer/ ********************************************************************************* From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Mar 1 23:44:47 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 01 23:44:47 +0000 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067883.23782.5486170386135038695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just want to point out one important thing : Rohan Oberoi wrote : [US and Russia-led sanctions] this in retaliation for no more than the exercise by the government of the Taleban of their right of sovereignty under the UN charter (the same right under which Norway refuses to extradite suspects facing the death penalty to the US). Only Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the UAE have recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. So I wonder if the Taliban govt. has any sovereign powers at all under international law. Given the "great game" in Central Asia, one might wonder why China is not acting at cross-purposes to the US and Russia ? The answer is that the Taliban have tried exporting their ideology to the Uighurs of China. The Taliban are isolated internationally for extremely good reasons. One should remember that despite being Islamic for over a millenium, Afghans had a cultural heritage worth preserving, that the Taliban are destroying. The Quran preaches a form of tolerance only to the non-believers who are people of the Book, and not to idolators. As a practical matter, Muslim rulers have often granted dhimmi status to those who are not Jews or Christians. So it is true that the Taliban are practicing a primitive and barbaric form of Islam, and it is also true that Islam does not have to be practiced in this way. It is a tragedy that the non-Islamic Afghan cultural heritage is being destroyed. However, if the creativity and cultural impulse that created that heritage in the first place is extinct, then the greater tragedy has already occurred. On the other hand, maybe we can create faster than the Taliban can destroy. -Arun Gupta From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 2 01:04:12 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 01:04:12 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067885.23782.4708273421748017960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tina, Your point is accepted. It's at times like these that I feel that as a graduate student one is lost in an ivory tower with limited agency. Any suggestions on what I can do to put in my two bits of effort will be welcome Rohit > >sorry but i think it is a shame that you are fighting about this instead of >talking constructively!We all must feel sad about the fact that a part of >human art will be destroyed in a few days! Tina > > >>From: Rohit Chopra Reply-To: Indology To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: Re: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 02:41:08 >>+0000 >> >>>Dr. Fosse - when you, as an Indologist, a Norwegian, a human being, are >>>complicit in the international policy that says the Taleban government >>>must be treated as international pariahs and the Afghan people as >>>legitimate casualties of an extradition dispute, what right do you have >>>to protest when they behave desperately and irrationally? When the >>>Afghans have been subjected first to widespread destruction by the >>>Russians, then to the funding and arming of disparate private groups by >>>the wealthiest country in the world to the point where the nation's >>>capital became the permanent battleground of those groups, and then to >>>the active and effective hostility of that same country with all other >>>nations (except a few like Pakistan and Turkmenistan) acquiescing, by >>>what logic can you attribute their adoption of extreme ideologies and >>>desperate (and unpleasant) actions to their inherent failings rather than >>>to the pressure of contingent circumstance? Forgive me, but if your >>>hypocrisy is not clear to you it is quite revolting to me; you sound like >>>a German of, say, 1941, complaining that Poles are violent terrorists by >>>nature. >>> >> >>I second that, it seems almost to comply to the classic definition of >>orientalist stereotyping. It is interesting that if a white European or >>American group or individual commits a reprehensible action, it is always >>made out to be the case of an "pathological, disturbed individual" or the >>work of some aberrant group (such as David Korresh's cult for instance). >>This is the idea the western media reinforces and one that echoes popular >>western sentiment as well. However, if any other population commits the >>same action, then a generalization is made about the innate negative >>qualities of that group, people, population or even civilization. Thus >>neo-nazi white supremacist groups are conveniently designated part of a >>lunatic fringe in chiefly white, western societies, whereas the Taliban is >>supposed to represent the innate "fanaticism" of all Afghans or even >>Islam. >> >>What is equally sad is that an equal number of Indians on this list jump >>to the same easy conclusions mirroring in the in-built assumptions of a >>centuries-old means of representing the geographical equivalent of the >>subcontinent. This is one of the infections of colonialism, that >>ironically, infects most strongly those who stridently makes claims about >>the purity of Indian (which, in their opinion, is Hindu) culture. >>Unfortunately there still is a reliance on the categories of neo-liberal >>democracy, which is based on so-called universals that in actu have their >>provincial roots in European history, and thus innately endorse a white, >>male ideology. The same neo-liberal democracy allows for affluent western >>countries to choke third world countries in the name of "justice" or >>"world peace". Additionally, the models of "civil society" cannot account >>for the historical specificty of formulations of community in cultures >>other than those European provinces where these models were formulated. >>Arms exports to the third world form a significant source of revenue for >>affluent developed and postindustrial nations. It is on the basis of this >>money that the west can afford to make those "democratic, liberal" >>generalizations about "fanatics" and Islam. >> >>Rohit >> >> >> >> >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Fri Mar 2 03:10:29 2001 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (kr) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 03:10:29 +0000 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067890.23782.17184994064367933159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LKG-ji, I think your argument is out of place. At this moment, Islam is not on trial, but the blasting of the Bamiyan Buddhas. None of a sensible person can defend this destruction in any point of view. Babri Masjid demolition or the demolition of Hindu temples in Pakistan and Bangladesh or the deliberate Hindu/Christian/Buddhist temple demolitions and damages in Sri Lanka are no different from the above one. We defend(ed) at least one of them with our own linear logic. Let alone a constructive action, it seems to me, many of us even do not want to lament about any of these happenings (including the Afgan one). However we catch every drop of opportunity to make more fuss and a lengthy moral lecture only because we need an excuse to blame our opponents for the happenings. If you people are not able to blow a soap bubble, at least save the bytes of others by keeping the feud off the forum or in other fora (of course, there are many in every regional language ;-)). It may make the list moderator?s net-babysitting much easier. [Agreed, this is the only environment my kind of readers can have something to say ;-)] -/kr From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Fri Mar 2 11:36:13 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 06:36:13 -0500 Subject: Bamiyan and Islamic apologist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067901.23782.5288177094787852759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The obstreperous Islamist hate monger Samar Abbas has struck again as follows: > "A Taleban spokesman in the United States, Sayed > Rahmatullah Hashmi, told the BBC the statues were being > destroyed to retaliate for the 1992 demolition of the ancient > mosque at Ayodhya in India by Hindu activists." Why it took them 9 years to retaliate for an alleged act done in a far off land by people of different faith? --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: There is nothing in a caterpillar that tells you it's going to be a butterfly. - Buckminster Fuller From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Fri Mar 2 11:44:28 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 06:44:28 -0500 Subject: Bamiyan background Message-ID: <161227067904.23782.7698835950984016835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since there seems to be a feeling here (ref. Tina's post) that the only problem in Afghanistan is the destruction of art objects, I thought a few pointers to information (without comment) might help the more thoughtful here put the issue in perspective. 1. "In Hunger, Cold and War, Afghans Only Find Death", New York Times, 1 Mar 2001, (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/01/world/02AFGH.html). 2. "Afghan currency in freefall amid fears of harsher UN sanctions", Agence France-Presse, 5 Dec 2000, (http://www.afghanradio.com/news/2000/december/dec5o2000.htm). 3. "Afghan currency plunges to all-time low", Agence France-Presse, 20 Jan 2001: "Afghanistan's currency on Saturday plunged to an all-time low a day after tough UN sanctions took effect..." (http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.ptd.net/webnews/wed/at/Qafghan-currency.RRjq_BJK.html+sanctions+afghan+currency&hl=en). 4. "Letter to U.N. Security Council", Human Rights Watch, 15 Dec 2000, (http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/12/afghan-ltr-1215.htm). 5. "Islamabad criticises "humanitarian crisis" caused by sanctions on Kabul", Agence France-Presse, 25 Feb 2001, (http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/6686f45896f15dbc852567ae00530132/da0a2c84ea70e4c6c12569ff003933f4?OpenDocument). 6. "Economic, Humanitarian, and Political Impact of the UN Imposed Sanctions on Afghanistan", Online Center for Afghan Studies, November 1999 (http://www.afghan-politics.org/Reference/Sanctions/economic_sanctions_Nov_99.htm). From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Fri Mar 2 12:51:16 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 07:51:16 -0500 Subject: addressee In-Reply-To: <003501c0a313$42cfe1c0$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227067909.23782.15984915652428716308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar has written as follows: > share the >answer, if obtained, with the listists. Please explain to me who are the leftists and where do find them? --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts. ... John Locke From rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU Fri Mar 2 07:52:12 2001 From: rkandia at MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU (kr) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 07:52:12 +0000 Subject: Re.: Bamiyan & Ayodhya Message-ID: <161227067898.23782.14972787352148130142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quoting Samar Abbas : > Various reasons have been given for the motive behind Taleban's > actions, ranging from UN sanctions, Quran, etc. Taleban are not the type >to engage in double-speak. They themselves have clearly stated the reasons >for their actions : > > "A Taleban spokesman in the United States, Sayed > Rahmatullah Hashmi, told the BBC the statues were being > destroyed to retaliate for the 1992 demolition of the ancient > mosque at Ayodhya in India by Hindu activists." > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1196000/1196363.stm > > Without no Ayodhya solution, no Bamiyan solution. Is it a threat or a plea for insanity? So, according to your/Taleban logic, 1. Taleban clocks/communication system are nine years slower than the rest of the world 2. Talebans have real trouble in distinguishing from one kind of kafir from another 3. Buddhists in Sri Lanka/Myanmar/Thailand can demolish any Islamic structure in 2010 as a retaliation for the blown up Bamiyan Buddhas 4. To get a solution for Chechniyan issue, plant three powerful bombs in Ukraine 5. Next to pass the flute-note to Indonesia, and set ?bonfire? on Buddhist & Hindu architectures with reasons rooted on last century East Timor riots -/kr From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 2 16:19:10 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 08:19:10 -0800 Subject: Bamiyan and Islamic apologist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067919.23782.13660170106475114036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While the obscurantist and destructive act of the Taliban stands condemned, it is not clear with what face do the Hindutva sympathizers in India and elsewhere e.g., this list condemn Islam ... so soon after an equally contemptible act of destroying the Babri Mosque. Some of the lead actors of that drama are unpenitent till today and are in positions of power ... Advani, Murli Manohar Joshi etc... So does Hinduism stand condemned since then? I'd appreciate a cheerful :-) but considered answer. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rpeck at NECA.COM Fri Mar 2 14:14:29 2001 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 09:14:29 -0500 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067916.23782.17042251837065427184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Bhadraiah wrote.. >>As an example, Matthew 6:6 becomes an Eastern sadhana on the power in >the >>lower ?heart? or gut. > >Matthew 6.6 works on the gut, but I think it is not direct. It first prompts >us to get into our shells and be what we really are, then springs a surprise >by offering the whole wide world; >....... >So my conclusion is, it works on head and liberates it first, and the >liberated head will now lead the whole body. Count me out of the regular >gang of head and ego bashing philosophers (east and west). Sadhanas seem to me to be equivalent to exercise, eating and sleeping. I agree the head leads and the ego is essential, but it is not the process nor the end. When life is fully experienced, ego and conscious thought drop away and only the process remains which is very wholistic and everything then becomesis a tool as you write. >Either there are no tools for liberation or everything is a tool; you can't >have some tools like heart etc excluding head/ego. You do need special tools to step into the game of life or to change it do you not? > >The above argument also explains my position on tantra etc: Even the weakest >person on the the earth has enough supply of the so called "kundalini" etc. The average person only has kundalini if there is a real need for it. A little lady lifts a car to free a child using kundalini, yes? You however, cannot lift a car (I assume), but you could develop your strength to be able to do so, but then you need to find a car that needs to be lifted. >Research is fine, but there is no need to raise the supply as tantrics want >it. The problem is mismanagement of demand which is controlled by head/ego. >The way to handle them is by training the head in leadership which prompts >renunciation, thereby managing the demand. Again what about the unplanned? The emergencies? The challenges? What if there is something beyond your present comprehension and wisdom? regards Bob Peck rpeck at neca.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 2 17:19:29 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 09:19:29 -0800 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067926.23782.16290196071539706598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Sri Lanka with a powerful army planning an invasion of Talibans? The active monks usually proclaim that they spread Buddhism by army and violence. Pakistan, Israel and India support their cleansing efforts wirh 100s of millions and training/weapons. --- Aditya Mishra wrote: > Raveen Satkurunathan has written as follows: > > >Muslim (political) party to urge Taliban against destroying statues > > > >http://www.indiaabroaddaily.com/2001/02/28/28taliban.html > > > >Rauf Hakeem > > > >"This decree is wrong and has been taken without the proper understanding > >of Islamic tolerance," said Hakeem. He appealed to all governments to join > >in pressuring the Afghan authorities from carrying out the order > > He can say anything because he lives in Sri Lanka which is a Buddhist > majority state where Buddhists are no more tolerant of minorities than > Afghanitanis. > --- > Yours sincerely, > Aditya Mishra > Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com > Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya > ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 > Random thought of the day: > If I save the whales, where do I keep them? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Mar 2 06:25:25 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 11:55:25 +0530 Subject: SV: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067894.23782.1130354255093737307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU wrote: > Western governments at present have pretty much zero influence over > them because the West has chosen a stance of unrelenting enmity to the > Taleban. The above statement is correct. Non-American westerners should think about the wisdom of blindly following US-Zionist foreign policy:- 1. The US armed the Taleban to fight the USSR. Now, only a few years later, they refuse to support their old allies, thereby providing indirect support to the Communists. Europeans should think about whether they want to help the US in supporting the Communists in Afghanistan, from where they may regroup to restore the USSR. This is the secret hope of Russian Communists, who are providing military support to their allies in the North. Have Europeans forgotten the 100 million killed by Communism? 2. One day, Playboy-President Bill Clinton wakes up to find he is about to be impeached over Monica cigarettes. So he decides to bomb `rogue state' Afghanistan because it `opposes Israel, the center of the Universe'. Viola! Bill Clinton is miraculously saved from impeachment. 3. Now, when priceless statues are being destroyed, the US only says, "Hand over Bin Laden" 4. More than 1000 innocent Palestinians were killed by Israel using helicopter gunships during the last 2 months. No protest from the US over this massacre. Yet, Bin Laden, who is alleged to have killed fewer than 100 people, is hunted down. 5. After imposing a total economic blockade on Afghanistan, and attempting to bomb the people into submission, the US now hopes that somehow the Taleban will listen to them. Surely, not a very logical action to follow? Europeans should think twice before blindly following the US line. > If Indologists (or anyone, really) want to make an effective > difference to this sort of issue in the future they should be speaking > out against the policy of isolating entire countries and starving > their populations through UN sanctions. I agree. This is the only way any difference can be made in future. Perhaps Indologists may wish to write to the UN urging it to lift sanctions against the Taleban. Samar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 2 20:08:09 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 12:08:09 -0800 Subject: Dandin in Sanskrit and Tamil Message-ID: <161227067943.23782.8848517996145987085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> International Journal of Hindu Studies Volume 4, Number 1, April 2000 (112 pages) The many lives of Dandin: The Kavyadarsa in Sanskrit and Tamil Anne E. Monius __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Mar 2 06:59:54 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 12:29:54 +0530 Subject: Bamiyan & Ayodhya In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067896.23782.581927977113946438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Various reasons have been given for the motive behind Taleban's actions, ranging from UN sanctions, Quran, etc. Taleban are not the type to engage in double-speak. They themselves have clearly stated the reasons for their actions : "A Taleban spokesman in the United States, Sayed Rahmatullah Hashmi, told the BBC the statues were being destroyed to retaliate for the 1992 demolition of the ancient mosque at Ayodhya in India by Hindu activists." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1196000/1196363.stm Without no Ayodhya solution, no Bamian solution. L. Suresh Kumar-LSK wrote: > No Muslim, educated or not, intellectual or not, will ever come out of > the closet and condemn the acts of the Taliban Sanghis have no moral right to criticise the Taleban - look at what they did in Ayodhya, Bangalore, etc. While reprehensible to European humanists, Talebanis are just reacting to what Sanghis did to Babri Masjid in 1992, in the only language Sanghis understand. Indologists should understand this. Instead, Sanghis are probably happy that at least some people are buying their theory of "Buddhists are Hindus". But before the Sanghis break out in jubilation at the destruction of "anti-Vaidik" Buddhist art, many Hindu idols are also being smashed too : "There are also a number of Hindu shrines in Bakhtiar province " http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1196000/1196363.stm Sanghis smash mosques - Talebanis smash temples. Sanghi Indian PM Vajpayee justifies Ayodhya - Talibani Afghan PM Omar justifies Bamiyan. Action followed by reaction. Who is right, who is wrong? Samar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 2 13:02:14 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 13:02:14 +0000 Subject: Tibetan Job at Oxford (fwd) Message-ID: <161227067913.23782.6680092846009537163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:11:49 +0000 From: Ulrich Pagel UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD INSTRUCTORSHIP IN TIBETAN Applications are invited for this post, which is tenable from the 1 October 2001. The appointment is tenable for a fixed term of five years (subject to a satisfactory review after the first year), stipend on the scale ?16,775 - ?19,482. Applicants should have a native command of Tibetan and considerable experience of teaching Tibetan as a foreign language (central dialect is preferred but not obligatory). Further particulars may be obtained from the office of Mr Louis Fong, Secretary to the Oriental Studies Board, Pusey Lane, Oxford, OX1 2LE (fax no. 01865 278190; tel. No 01865 288202 or email: jane.webber at orinst.ox.ac.uk), to whom 8 copies of applications (or one from candidates who are based overseas) should be sent no later than Monday 2 April 2001. Further particulars are also available on the web at www.admin.ox.ac.uk/fp/ or www.orinst.ox.ac.uk/jobs.htm The University is an Equal Opportunity Employer. The Michael Aris Memorial Trust for Tibetan and Himalayan Studies 10 Parkfields London SW15 6NH Voice-Mail: 00 44 (0)20 8788 1966 24hr Fax: 00 44 (0)20 8785 4789 E-Mail: anthony at serindia.demon.co.uk From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 2 18:33:16 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 13:33:16 -0500 Subject: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067935.23782.16424995548670066440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Samar Abbas wrote.. >2. One day, Playboy-President Bill Clinton wakes up to find he is >about to >be impeached over Monica cigarettes. So he decides to bomb >`rogue state' >Afghanistan because it `opposes Israel, the center of >the Universe'. >Viola! Bill Clinton is miraculously saved from >impeachment. Please turn your clock forward by 40 days. The new prez is George W. Bush, now we know the recount also. I understand Taliban has its back to a wall, and there is a limit any one can take. But the interesting thing about civilizations is that every thing is taken to the limit, and at the time of doing it nobody cares about limits. The element of self control is missing. The bipolar world was gone, and the unipolar world order is now under question as more skeletons are coming out of the cupboard. Hopefully some wounds may heal like in Vietnam. But with more and more freetrade we are heading towards a multi-polar world controlled by beurocracies like UN. Isolating trouble makers and providing them with food supplies till tempers cool may be a good idea. But this works only when UN becomes powerful enough to talk tough and make sure its sponsors themselves dont create trouble. Best, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Mar 2 20:06:44 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 15:06:44 -0500 Subject: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067940.23782.15573793071752559218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isolating trouble makers and providing them with food supplies till tempers cool may be a good idea. But this works only when UN becomes powerful enough to talk tough and make sure its sponsors themselves dont create trouble. --------------- Its not a good idea in general and even less so for cases like this. A cancerous tumour needs to be isolated and drugs are designed to choke of its blood supply by inhibiting growth of blood vessels. If list members have any illusions about the taleban they may like to visit the following website. It has pictures and movies of public throat slitting, execution, amputation, .. atrocities against women. http://my.rawa.org/ Also I appealing to the moderater Mr. wujastyk to check all messages with political content. Thats not what this list is supposed to discuss as I have been told once. For example the posts by samar abbas, rohan oberoi et al are blatantly politically motivated. If the moderatoer cannot regulate such emails( regardless of sender ) he stands accused of double standards. On a personal note, I am going to unsubscribe from this list. RB From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 2 17:04:04 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 17:04:04 +0000 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067922.23782.6423542737553490154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 03:10:29 +0000, kr wrote: > >Babri Masjid demolition or the demolition of Hindu temples >in Pakistan and Bangladesh or the deliberate Hindu/Christian/Buddhist >temple demolitions and damages in Sri Lanka are no different >from the above one. We defend(ed) at least one of them with our >own linear logic. You have missed another country in South Asia where it is the state policy to break and rebury and idols found. It happens on a daily basis in Maldives. Countless Buddhist, Hindu and Animist statues have been destroyed by this action a great loss to humanity. Now Sri Lanka has already destroyed well over 1,560 Hindu Temples and Christian Churches so far. It is a deliberate policy in subjugating an ethnic minority by psychological warfare probably taught to them by the Special Forces trainers from the US. Unfortunately unlike the Quran nothing in their Tripitikas says that a place of worship should be left alone or does it? Source http://www.tamilcanadian.com/eelam/hrights/html/Temples.html From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri Mar 2 17:46:25 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 17:46:25 +0000 Subject: Minorities in Afghanistan Message-ID: <161227067929.23782.12646105051601562509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know how many followers of minority religions are still there in Afghanistan? Before Talibans, there used to a thriving community of Hindu/Sikh traders in Afghanistan, mostly Khatris. They have been present in Afghanistan and central Asia since ancient times. Some of their clans may actually have originated in Afghanistan or nearby region. >?From what I have read in the news, they have all fled. At one time many religions besides Buddhism, including Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Manichianism and Christianity flourished in that region. It was certainly a major center of Buddhism once. Yashwant From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Mar 2 12:21:08 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 17:51:08 +0530 Subject: addressee Message-ID: <161227067907.23782.9970733823637516411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The best people to answer this question are the Taliban. Perhaps the questioner would address the question to the right source and share the answer, if obtained, with the listists. rajesh kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic > >Why it took them 9 years to retaliate for an alleged act done in a far off and by people of different faith? > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 2 17:45:31 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 18:45:31 +0100 Subject: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067931.23782.528575762971082128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen Satkurunathan [SMTP:tawady at YAHOO.COM] skrev 2. mars 2001 18:04: > Now Sri Lanka has already destroyed well over 1,560 Hindu Temples and > Christian Churches so far. It is a deliberate policy in subjugating an > ethnic minority by psychological warfare probably taught to them by the > Special Forces trainers from the US. I am afraid that this kind of policy is considerably older than the US special forces (who may not even care much for it, for all I know). The Christian Church certainly liked to destroy pagan shrines and build churches in the same place, this happened in a number of places here in Norway, for instance, during the introduction of Christianity. Muslims have been doing this in India for centuries as we all know (although perhaps not quite so often as assumed in some quarters). One of the problems with Truth is that people who think they have found it, often get intolerably intolerant. But then of course, the opposite too has its negative aspects.... Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri Mar 2 19:18:25 2001 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 20:18:25 +0100 Subject: Islam and Idols (Re: Plight of Buddhist art) Message-ID: <161227067938.23782.3204231081746969875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.V. Raman wrote: > 1. Even people who are not very versed in Islamic doctrines may be aware that > the Taliban's position may be argued to be perfectly consistent with some of > the passages and teachings of the Holy Qu'ran. So they're excused! What will be next: bombs on the museum in New Delhi and next Mouskwa and NewYork? The Qu'ran is just words, only human interpretation van make a meaning. Everyone is responsable for the way he or she reads a book. No one is excused from responsability. The motive if the Tallies is just to prove to themselvs they've got some power and to divert the attention from the fact that they made a mess of Afghanistan. How can you expect that roughes who think they can solve any problem with a gun can read and understand such a complicated book as the Qu'ran? > > 2. However, the behavior of someone who is destructive should be > distinguished from excusing or applauding the act, which, I am sure is not what > some scholars are doing in this context. But it needs to pointed out that what > many people are vehemently reacting to is not the faith that inspires the > action of the Taliban, but the action's appropriateness in the age in which we > live. You cab explain opportunity, but what about motive? > > 3. It is not impossible for religious fanatics of any tradition to engage in > disgustingly > outrageous behavior, quoting from their scriptures to justify their actions, > and (in many instances) they would be perfectly on target too, because (God > knows) many scriptures and canonical texts have elements which, irrespective > of their appropriateness in times past, are intolerable, unacceptable, and > worthy of condemnation by all decent and enlightened people today, irrespective > of their religious affiliation. Stop blaming the islam, it's people who commit these crimes! > > 4. Most dispassionate students of culture and religion will grant that Islam > has made great contributions to art and architecture, to scholarship and > literature and more, and that it also preaches a great many decent human > values. But none of this can justify or condone what this particular group is > doing today in many contexts. Irrelevant! Islam preaches nothing, the words come from peoples mouths. > > 5. Every human institution, of no matter what antiquity, inherent merit, or > positive attributes, needs to change and evolve, or else it stagnates and rots, > and in this interwoven world, its stench can affect other human beings too. > Positive transformations within a religious system can occur only > when it is fortunate to produce bold visionaries, enlightened religious leaders > and thoughtful scholars. This is happening in a number of contexts all over the > world. One would hope that thinkers and scholars, both Muslim and others, who > wish well for this great and rich tradition, would persuade the mullahs and > others in power that hurtful and destructive behavior in the name of their > religion heaps more ignominy than glory on it. Just a bit of common sense might do! Visionairies scare me because they just don't have it. erik > From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Fri Mar 2 20:36:37 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 01 20:36:37 +0000 Subject: Cultural war in India Message-ID: <161227067946.23782.1551938948348528596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The comparable act to the vandalism going on in Afghanistan would be for Hindus to declare open season on the destruction of all mosques and Islamic art in India. While the destruction of a place of worship is contemptible, the significance of the Babri Masjid in the scheme of things is next to zero. If the government had acquired under eminent domain for some purpose other than a Ram temple, I doubt that anyone would have said anything. So, the Taliban excuse of Ayodhya is a bit of BS, to put it politely. In any case, they are destroying primarily Buddhist artifacts -- and this hits Sri Lankans, Japanese, Taiwanese, etc. much more than Hindus. The Dalit Buddhists are supposed to ally politically with Muslims against Hindus, and I doubt this will dent their alliance. In India, there are two vocal groups -- one side cannot say anything good about Islam and the other cannot say anything bad. For instance, when Dr. Fosse wrote : "Otherwise, all we can do, is lament the folly of religious fanatics if they go through with this." he was equated to a Nazi. This is a symptom of the Indian "secular" disease, correctly called pseudo-secularism, that nothing, no matter how truthful, can be said about anything Islamic. Being sensitive to the sentiments of minorities in India means never being able to speak the truth or even tolerate it from non-Indians. It doesn't matter what the Taliban do -- ensure by their behavior that they are not recognized by any but three countries, ensure by their behavior that they are not a member of the OIC ( Org. of Islamic countries), put all kinds of restrictions on women, even humiliate the Pakistan soccer team for wearing shorts and no beards -- labelling them as religious fanatics is a crime against humanity. There are any number of excuses -- ranging from dire circumstances to actions of the anti-secular Indians -- proferred for Taliban behavior. It never occurs to the p-secularist that two wrongs do not make a right. The other symptom of Indian p-secularism is that any and all vituperation is justified against Hindus. It can be an Islamic sect, the Deendar Anjuman blowing up churches in Karnataka, but it is still Hindus' fault, because someone or the other says so. Conversely, despite numerous news-items of Pakistani army regulars fighting alongside the Taliban, Pakistani help to the Taliban is only "alleged". Thus, anyone who teaches Sanskrit, sets up a Hindu school, restores an old Hindu temple, publicly reveres the Bhagavad Gita, sings Vande Mataram is at best, a Hindu revivalist who poses a danger to the peace. The fine distinctions that we must draw in the case of the Taliban -- that maybe, perhaps, and only because of dire circumstances, one or two of them might be religious fanatics, and then, because of the statutes of multi-culturalism, we should not even say that -- all these evaporate when the Indian p-sec. addresses Hindus. I had thought the p-sec. was a phantom, an invention of the Hindu right, but you have witnessed it on this list. You all are also aware of the other set, those who can speak no good of Islam. It is very easy for them to take the most extreme example -- Taliban or Saudi Arabians, Timur or Aurangzeb -- and label these as the archetypes of Muslims. The extreme Muslim fundamentalist/fanatic and this set agree on the definition of Islam, no other version is legitimate. There is a middle ground, where the truth is not mangled and is politely spoken and accepted. I hope that the Indologists who love India use their scholarship and all the interesting things that they can educate people about to expand this middle ground. -Arun Gupta From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 3 09:44:26 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 04:44:26 -0500 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067957.23782.11912522325012890462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Bob Peck wrote wrote.. >When life is fully experienced, ego and conscious thought drop away >and only the process remains which is very wholistic and everything >then >becomesis a tool as you write. We are just taking sides to explain a point here, I don't mean either of us are for or against anything (head etc). :) I am only addressing the popular rhetoric. The argument about ego dropping off is well known, but you should know I am the Johny Cochran of "ego". :-) Another way of looking at it is, in my view the ego will simply grow bigger, stronger and wider in scope. The concept "I am Bhadraiah" will one day hopefully become "I am viSNu". viSNu also has an ego (self concept)! At the end, the "process" (yajna) will go also away. >>Research is fine, but there is no need to raise the supply as >>tantrics >>want it. The problem is mismanagement of demand which is >>controlled by >>head/ego. The way to handle them is by training the >>head in leadership >>which prompts renunciation, thereby managing the >>demand. >Again what about the unplanned? The emergencies? The challenges? What >if >there is something beyond your present comprehension and wisdom? Each one of the eternal symbols is directly born of the unknown, so facing the unknown is never a problem for any of them. indra went to the farthest distance to chase vRtra accompanied by maruts when no other gods (including rudra and viSNu) dared to join him. Intellgence, leadership or other qualities of the head have no limits either. I don't deny limits are observed in lab, but this is because agni gets his first portion of soma before indra. Back to distortions, I see none in original texts because nobody understood them anyway. Even in later texts there are no distortions in general, other than those created by (deep)sleep walkers; but we have to be specific here. Regards Bhadraiah http://homes.acmecity.com/friends/harmonica/301 yahoogroup..... http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/VedicRitual _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sat Mar 3 04:45:07 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 04:45:07 +0000 Subject: Locative of tanU Message-ID: <161227067949.23782.6049878943205074306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Could someone advise me on the following problem: Word tanU (MW 435.2) has loc.sing. as tanvI couple of times in RV. In taittirIya-saMhitA there appears to be one occasion of tanuvi form of the same case --- in TS 4.3.13.1d (according to Vedic Concordance) The question is: could the form tanuvi be considered as valid, or does it appear in TS only due to some special circumstances? Could it be assumed that tanuvi occurs in other MSS? Best regards, Dmitri. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 3 06:45:45 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 06:45:45 +0000 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227067955.23782.72115241775967666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am not an Indologist and have a query that I am sure you would be able to help me with. Recently, a colleague of mine who works on early Renaissance Spain told me that through Spain the Panchatantra and one other Indian epic (which he could not remember) made their way into European folklore. I would be grateful if anyone could provide me with guidance about this. Regards Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sat Mar 3 14:23:47 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 08:23:47 -0600 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227067973.23782.16402943604072074855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- De: Rohit Chopra Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Fecha: S?bado 3 de Marzo de 2001 12:56 AM Asunto: Query >Dear Indologists, My dear friend I recieved your letters by Vediccultural group news letter. >I am not an Indologist and have a query that I am sure you would be able to >help me with. Recently, a colleague of mine who works on early Renaissance >Spain told me that through Spain the Panchatantra and one other Indian epic >(which he could not remember) made their way into European folklore. I would >be grateful if anyone could provide me with guidance about this. My name is Hare krsna das, I am student of literature spanish lenguage inm de U A de C. Yes it is right, I avery scholars in this field know very well that the Muslim imperium bring from India the Damila Camila work, this is a trasculturizade narrations from Hitopadesa a Pancatantra. The King Juan the Sage, has in his court, scholars from different sides, muslim, Juwis and christhian, And the Arabic poeple carrierd to Spain many historys form the India puranic works, For exempla I found the same history of Ajamila in the crihstina catholic works called The Miracles form our Lady (Virgen Mary), transcultirized to spanish catholic folk, Even the spanish recived so much sanscrit words. So the muslim invation let to the europeans people many things form Indias arts. >Regards >Rohit > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat Mar 3 05:41:46 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 11:11:46 +0530 Subject: addressee Message-ID: <161227067953.23782.8203839305687882938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LISTISTS ARE THE MEMBERS OF THE ( INDOLOGY ) LIST -----Original Message----- From: Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, March 02, 2001 6:27 PM Subject: Re: addressee >Rajesh Kochhar has written as follows: >> share the >>answer, if obtained, with the listists. >Please explain to me who are the leftists and where do find them? >--- >Yours sincerely, >Aditya Mishra >Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com >Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya >ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 >Random thought of the day: > I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts. ... John Locke From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Sat Mar 3 16:34:59 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 11:34:59 -0500 Subject: Bihar's oriental library to go on Net Message-ID: <161227067959.23782.3658572188402059264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In case you have not read it else where it may be of interest to you. Patna, Mar 2 - A beautiful catalog of ancient and rare manuscripts will now be available online. The internationally acclaimed Khuda Baksh Oriental Public Library here is soon going to put its collection on the Net. The library has 21,000 rare manuscripts and 200,000 printed books in various languages including Urdu, Arabic, Persian, Turkish and French. "Jehangirnamah," or memoirs of Jehangir, and "Padshanamah," having 18 exquisite miniatures and seven drawings of buildings, and 113 paintings by the famous court artists of emperor Akbar are the major attractions of the library. It has preserved a unique copy of the manuscript of diwan (minister) Hafiz Shiraji containing autographs and writings of Mughal emperors Humayun and Jehangir. Besides putting all these rare manuscripts, books and paintings on the Net the library is also planning to reproduce them in English, Hindi and Urdu languages for mass circulation in a bid to fulfill the wish of the country's first prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru who wrote in the visitors book here in 1953 "I should like to see the manuscripts being reproduced using the latest techniques so others can see them and enjoy". "Under the development program of the library, all the details about its activities, other matters and future plans would be made available on the Internet for the benefit of the scholars and viewers the world over," director of the Khuda Baksha library, Mohammad Zaiuddin Ansari said. He said the library was already computerized. The library is planning to put on the Net its entire background, history and its activities and functions in the first phase, Ansari said adding the library authorities would take up digitization of the rare manuscripts in the second phase of the program. And in the third phase, the director said, the online catalog of all the printed books would be completed. The library has instituted a research fellowship on the lines of the one offered by the university grants commission, in a bid to popularize and accelerate research work. Ansari said the library had won international recognition for having rich collections of manuscripts, rare books and original paintings of Mughal, Rajput, Turkish and Iranian schools. The library is also planning to publish the biography of the architects of modern India like Rajendra Prasad, Maulana Mazarul Haque, Zakir Hussain and Fakruddin Ali Ahmed in Hindi, English and Urdu languages, he added. Meanwhile the Indian government is planning to send "Tarikh-e-Khandan-Timuria," which is the prized possession of the Khuda Baksha Oriental Library, for display at the festival of India in Malaysia in April. The manuscript, the only one of its kind available in the world, contains 132 paintings by the court painter of Akbar the great and also the writings of Mughal emperor Jehangir. --India Abroad News Service --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: No matter which way you go, it's uphill and against the wind. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Mar 4 01:21:45 2001 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 01 17:21:45 -0800 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067962.23782.13897190413115271547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:45 AM 03/03/2001 +0000, you wrote: >I am not an Indologist and have a query that I am sure you would be able to >help me with. Recently, a colleague of mine who works on early Renaissance >Spain told me that through Spain the Panchatantra and one other Indian epic >(which he could not remember) made their way into European folklore. I would >be grateful if anyone could provide me with guidance about this. >Rohit _____________ You can start by reading pp. xliii-xliv of: Olivelle, Patrick, trans. 1997. The Pa?catantra: The Book of India's Folk Wisdom. The World's Classics. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 4 03:17:13 2001 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 01 03:17:13 +0000 Subject: Yogacara in XXth century China Message-ID: <161227067964.23782.11831738644765281826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I?m looking for informations and eventual bibliography of an alleged yogacara "renaissance" in China during the first decades of last century. Anything concerning this topic will be most welcome. Jesualdo Correia _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Mar 4 06:41:51 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 01 06:41:51 +0000 Subject: Wrong ideas, wrong words and wrong meanings Message-ID: <161227067967.23782.2168782962640283880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the best of my knowledge, the English word "idol" is misused in describing the deities of RAma. KrishNa, Buddha installed in temples with proper religious procedure.The word idol was once used to indicate a small doll used in black magic. The practitioners of black magic were the original idolaters.The misuse of the English words to describe the ancient eastern concepts is widespread.The second example of misuse is the coining and promoting the terms like Hinduism, Shikhism, Buddhism, Jainism and Zoroastrism by the western writers.Christians do not use the words Jesusism or Christism to describe their religion. It is Christianity.The western writers tried to promote the term Mohammedism. However it was opposed by Muslims who use the term Islam for their religion.The meaning of the suffix "-ism" is a kind of ideology without the God's revelation and procedure for salvation.The label "-ism" makes true sense in words like Communism, Capitalism, Nepotism, Humanism etc.Originally the term secular meant anybody who is not Christian.Nowadays it means different things to different people in different contexts.Identifying a religion by the name of a single prophet may lead to a future conflict. What would happen if the greater prophet appeared in future?Are the followers going to rename their religion without conflict or with conflict? In Physics,on the other hand we have the theory of Newton, then theory of Eistein and so on.All of them however are the part of the overall sysstem of knowledge called Physics. Similar logic existed in the ancient India.Teachings of Vi.sNu were Aagama of Vi.sNu, teachings of Shiva were Aagama of Shiva, teaching of Buddha were Aagama of Buddha and so on. The wisdom of the existence of the God and practices to be followed to realize Him distilled out over the centuries through the contribution of many many Prophets and Saints was treated as Nigama.The condensed knowledge that stood the test of time was called Dharma similar to Deen of the ancient Parsi people.Thus Nigama is the river flowing with ever fresh waters of merging knowledge streams checked and rechecked by personal experiences of millions of Saints and Prophets small or great. It was not a pond of knowledge belonged to a single the first or the last prophet and which could start smelling foul within centuries after the death of the prophet thus leading to ideological fights.It is interesting to note that the new technical knowledge checked experimentally by scientists and engineers gets classified while copies of the ancient unchecked, mistranslated, rewritten, even manipulated scriptures are spread in millions all over the world with claims like the first and the last revelation from the God direct. Human psychology is involved here. Two human beings sharing the same technical knowledge (like making of atom bomb) feel insecure. However when they share their ignorance they feel secure. Religious leaders are on the forefront in inflating egos and spreading ignorance in today's world at the same time suppressing small voices trying to tell the other side of the story.Around 1991 or 1992, the ethnic news weekly Indiawest from California published the summary of the original article by Dr.Tahir Mahmood, professor of Law, Delhi University published in Times of India.It was said in the article that Prophet of Islam had stated on more than one occasion that divine fragrance came to him from the side of India.The son-in-law of the Prophet and the fourth Caliph Hazrat Ali had said once, "Of all places on the Earth, the holiest and the most fragrant is India". The ancient Arabs were in always good relations with the ancient India.Arab role in the destruction of the ancient temples is minimal.Even to this day, there exist ancient shrines scattered all over the Middle east from Egypt to Arabia.It was the Turkish custom to destroy the temples and build tombs over the dead people.To the best of my knowledge (please correct me if I were wrong), there is no tomb (round cylindrical structure and building) on the spot where the Prophet (pbuh)of Islam is resting eternally.It was reported in the ancient Hindu scriptures that at the place where the living God was once playing,in future the tomb of the dead would be erected. When Bauddha round stoops were built in the ancient India, some felt that prophecy was fulfilled. No, it was fulfilled when the tomb called Taj-Mahal was built on the bank of KrishNa's YamunA river. True Islam should be separated from practices of Turks with the ancient totem of Wolf. Thanks. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Mar 4 13:47:04 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 01 13:47:04 +0000 Subject: Taliban discussion Message-ID: <161227067969.23782.7036052735733841707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, everyone, for your contributions on this topic. The subject is now closed. May I remind members to keep contributions short; about 2k is recommended. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sun Mar 4 14:41:19 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 01 14:41:19 +0000 Subject: Taliban discussion Message-ID: <161227067971.23782.18297935243741506811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Historical facts : Genghis Khan and Aurangzeb are the previous two rulers who attacked the Bamiyan Buddha statues. This is as per an NYT quote from retired archaelogist Rakhaldas Sengupta, 75, who had spent many years working to restore the statues. -Arun Gupta From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Mon Mar 5 02:13:34 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 01 20:13:34 -0600 Subject: Asking?? Message-ID: <161227067996.23782.11690663757575180219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My dear Sirs: Namaste. I working in a research. Therefore I need that your can help for looking about some funds in the Changchou ruins in South China maked by the archelogist in this places the last century. If you do have some information, becuase I need know all about the estatigraphic, the dates of this grounds, etc. I will be very please for any help. My name is Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez from the U A de C in Saltillo Coah. North-Mexico. Atte. At the service of yours. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Mar 5 00:35:49 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 00:35:49 +0000 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227067975.23782.17711782546280002293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the (probable) scientific name for the saarasa bird ? I can't get to any suitable reference materials right now. Tks Stephen Hodge From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Mar 5 01:22:55 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 01:22:55 +0000 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227067977.23782.6980586225723335058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MW gives saarasa 1209.1 Indian or Siberian crane, Ardea Sibirica From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Mon Mar 5 13:47:20 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 07:47:20 -0600 Subject: Invation Message-ID: <161227067998.23782.15822769275536724390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My dear Sirs: Namaste to all you. Now we are invitating to every indolgist and Indian's literature students and fans, of Spanish language, for participe in the next Forum about Letras y Filsof?a de la Cultura Hind?. It will be spread by scholars and students of Latinamerica and other countrys of this speak. If you know somebody that want to participe in this pleased re-send the invitation. Only given your answer this letter with your name and school and wait for more information. Atty. Horacio Fco. Arganis Juarez >???From U A de C. From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Mar 5 15:09:06 2001 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 09:09:06 -0600 Subject: Invation Message-ID: <161227068006.23782.2345266323804881041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly send an invitation. Rasik Vihari Joshi Professor of Sanskri and Philosophy -----Mensaje original----- De: Radha-Govinda Mandir [mailto:govinda at MCSA.NET.MX] Enviado el: Lunes, 05 de Marzo de 2001 07:47 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Asunto: Invation My dear Sirs: Namaste to all you. Now we are invitating to every indolgist and Indian's literature students and fans, of Spanish language, for participe in the next Forum about Letras y Filsof?a de la Cultura Hind?. It will be spread by scholars and students of Latinamerica and other countrys of this speak. If you know somebody that want to participe in this pleased re-send the invitation. Only given your answer this letter with your name and school and wait for more information. Atty. Horacio Fco. Arganis Juarez >???From U A de C. From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Mar 5 09:11:13 2001 From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 10:11:13 +0100 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227067981.23782.12133541208967524549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forwarded that query to my colleague Ditte Bandini. An article by her discussing this subject will appear in the next number of: "Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik". She claims that saarasa is not specific enough to identify a certain kind of bird, since it matches to any bird living in the swamps. Dmitri schrieb: > > MW gives > saarasa 1209.1 Indian or Siberian crane, Ardea Sibirica -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences >Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 5 10:38:33 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 10:38:33 +0000 Subject: TeX's Babel goes Indic Message-ID: <161227067983.23782.12175134181597508007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Forwared message ----- Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:12:05 GMT To: indology Subject: TeX Babel goes Indic CTAN:/tex-archive/macros/latex/packags/babel has now Babel release 3.7 >From the announcement file: What's new in release 3.7? Actually babel 3.7 is very much like the later releases of babel 3.6 (from 3.6k onwards). The concept of language attributes is new in this release. And support for a number of languages has been added. Here is a list of the changes since babel 3.6j: [...] - Support for typesetting Sanskrit in transliteration will be made available in a later release of babel 3.7. - Support for typesetting Kannada, Devnagari and Tamil will be made available in a later release of babel 3.7. - Support for typesetting Greek has been enhaced. Code from the kdgreek package (suggested by the author) was added and \greeknumeral has been added. - A language attribute has been added to the \mark... commands in order to make sure that a greek header line comes out right on the last page before a language switch. - Support for typesetting Basque is now available thanks to Juan Aguirregabiria. - Support for typesetting Serbian with latin script is now available thanks to Dejan Muhamedagi'c and Jankovic Slobodan. - Support for typesetting Hebrew (and potential support for typesetting other rigth-to-left written languages) is now available thanks to Rama Porrat and Boris Lavva. [...] - Support for typesetting Latin is now available, thanks to Krzysztof Konrad .Zelechowski. - The concept of language attributes is introduced. It is intended to be used for giving the user some control over the use of the features a language definition file provides. It's first uses are for the Greek language, where the user can select to use the \pi o\lambda\upsilon\tau o\nu\kappa\acute{o} (``Polutoniko'' or multiaccented) Greek way of typesetting texts, and for the Latin language where both modern and medieval Latin are supported. These attributes wil possibly find wider use in future releases. Reinhard Zierke for the CTAN team From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 5 10:39:40 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 10:39:40 +0000 Subject: Babel correction Message-ID: <161227067985.23782.11051692968249994509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Forwarded message ----- I wrote: CTAN:/tex-archive/macros/latex/packags/babel has now Babel release 3.7 That is of course a typo. The correct directory is CTAN:/tex-archive/macros/latex/required/babel Reinhard Zierke From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Mon Mar 5 11:08:03 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 12:08:03 +0100 Subject: New digitised manuscripts available now Message-ID: <161227067987.23782.13819394577703814644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, just to inform you that we have started publishing some significant new manuscripts, including the famous Atharva-Veda manuscript from the University Library at T?bingen (PaippalAda recension/Kashmir, ,SAradA script, birch bark, very large, beautiful manuscript). Please check out our updated www.e-ternals.com site. Also available now: a hitherto unpublished manuscript, probably by Nampillai. The Tattva-viveka by Pillai Lokacharya is now also available in full resolution quality, for libraries, archives and people with really huge machines... In future, we will publish as much as we can in two versions: (1) Full-resolution (up to 400 MB per image), for libraries, archives, museums, research centres, (2) Multimedia-enhanced versions with our special manuscript-reading software, resolution reduced in such a way that individual fibres can be seen, but not almost microscopic like the full resolution. This version loads pages very fast, even from the CD, and contains software for zooming in and out very swiftly, moving the page on the screen, turning pages, etc. We are now also starting to publish meta-data, transliterations/transcriptions, translations, critical editions and secondary literature. This will include some so far unpublished works by Rudolph Roth, also held in the University Library of T?bingen. Other scholars and researchers interested in contributing work are cordially invited to contact me directly to discuss possibilities. We would also like to announce that we have developed an algorithm for digitally blackening palm leaves. This algorithm works with ALL palm-leaf manuscripts. Physical blackening is destructive. It also has to be repeated regularly. Our algorithm beautifully "blackens" the palm-leaf text non-intrusively. We are able to perform this painless operation within seconds, and we will now offer blackened versions of physically unblackened palm leaf manuscripts, in addition to the "authentic" ones. The blackened versions are easier to read, while the authentic versions give you the security you need for creating critical editions. Positive side-effect: we are now able to PRINT such manuscripts as well. I believe this is a first! Reproduction was so far not possible, unless the manuscript was physically blackened before--which eventually destroys it and counteracts the principle of non-intrusive publishing. Finally, we would like to report successful completion of a micro-film digitisation project done for the German National Library in Berlin. We are now able to digitise micro-film, even material that is already decaying and cannot be read any more with the usual micro-film reading/printing equipment. Of course the quality is not comparable to digitisation directly from the original, but in many cases manuscripts have vanished after micro-filming, or there are no possibilities to digitise them in addition. In such cases it seems reasonable to digitise the micro-film. We would like to draw your attention to the fact that enormous quantities of micro-film even in very reputable institutions in the US, the UK, France and Germany have already degraded beyond useability. We would also like to announce the beginning of the second stage of e-ternals.com project Guarnieri (sounds good, doesn't it...). This project develops a special software for performing music directly from digitised facsimile. We invite institutions and individuals who own manuscripts to partner with us in digitising and publishing. We are also interested in finding people who have successfully digitised material but find it hard to publish it. We are also looking for sponsors interested in contributing towards digitisation of heritage materials. Please contact me directly if you are also working in this area and would like to find out if there are possibilities for cooperation. With kind regards, Gunthard Gunthard Mueller e-ternals.com Unter den Linden 15 72762 Reutlingen Germany Phone: +49-7121-370411 Fax: +49-7121-336988 gm at e-ternals.com From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Mar 5 10:43:20 2001 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 12:43:20 +0200 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <00f601c0a510$54e7a1a0$7e19893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227067989.23782.7344665339719281415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Paul Thieme saarasa designates the "Antigone- Kranich" (Grus antigone); see his article: "Kranich und Reiher im Sanskrit", in "Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 1 (1975), pp. 3-36, esp. pp. 5-8. For an illustration of this bird, see Salim Ali, "The Book of Indian Birds", 2nd ed., Bombay 1943, p. 333 ("The Sarus Crane"). With best regards, Roland Steiner From mlbd at VSNL.COM Mon Mar 5 08:07:16 2001 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 13:37:16 +0530 Subject: Conferences Message-ID: <161227067979.23782.18178050252342636870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, Does anyone know about the following conferences to be held in 2001-02 a.. Indian Studies Conference in Poland b.. International Conference on the Mahabharata in Canada c.. Seminar on Ayurveda in Lisbon d.. International Association of Tibetan Studies e.. International Association of Buddhist Studies . Sincerely, Rajeev Jain -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 5 14:43:43 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 14:43:43 +0000 Subject: British Library manuscripts Message-ID: <161227068004.23782.2837420503044153321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The British Library has been busy converting its old printed catalogues of manuscripts into machine-readeable format. The work has been carried out on the catalogues of western manuscripts, not the catalogues from the Oriental and India Office Collections. However, there are still a number of manuscripts of indological importance listed. For further information, go to http://molcat.bl.uk/msscat/ and after "entering", search the Descriptions using terms imaginatively, such as, for example, "Sanskrit", "Sanscrit", "Hindoo" and so forth. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From dimitrov at STUD-MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Mon Mar 5 14:13:49 2001 From: dimitrov at STUD-MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Dragomir Dimitrov) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 15:13:49 +0100 Subject: Modern Maithili script Message-ID: <161227068001.23782.10965376426435584607.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, can someone tell me whether the Modern Maithili script is still being used in certain parts of India (Bihar, around Darbhanga?) and Nepal? Or has it been totally replaced by the Devanagari script? If the Maithili script is still being used by certain people (e.g. some Brahmans in Darbhanga), are there any books, magazines, newspapers published recently in this script? Is there any Maithili font available? I have only one specimen of a text written in the Maithili script around the end of the 19th cent. to be seen in Grierson's "Linguistic Survey of India", vol. 5, part 2. Calcutta 1903, pp. 56-58. I am now looking for more recent specimens. Thank you very much for your assistance! Best regards, Dragomir Dimitrov ******************************************* Dragomir DIMITROV, M.A. Fachgebiet Indologie, FB 10 Philipps-Universitaet Marburg Wilhelm-Roepke-Str.6F D-35032 Marburg, GERMANY ******************************************* Tel.: 0049 6421 282 2184, 0049 177 7172924 Fax: 0049 6421 282 4995 dimitrov at stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de http://stud-www.uni-marburg.de/~Dimitrov/ From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Mar 5 13:39:48 2001 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 15:39:48 +0200 Subject: Query on Panchatantra Message-ID: <161227067993.23782.15944289210005248038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues. as Rohit Chopra's question seems not to have got full answer, let me briefly outline the history of the way of the Panchatantra through successive translations to Europe. A Middle Persian translation of an early Sanskrit recension -- both of which are not preserved to us -- was further translated into several Near Eastern languages: Syriac, Arabic and Hebrew. From these, at least three European translations were made during the Middle Ages: the Old Spanish mentioned by Chopra and Das, the Latin by John of Capua and the Greek. These became all well known and were translated further, e.g. John's verion into Middle High German and Middle English and the Greek one into several Slavic languages. A fourth time the text arrived in Europe in the 17th century, when the French translation of the Persian Anwar-i Suhaili -- founded on the Arabic Kalila was Dimna -- was published by David Sahid and Gilbert Gaulmin (see my article in Studia Orientalia 85, 1999, 193-197), a fifth in 1724, when Antoine Galland's French translation of the Humayun-name, the Turkish adaptation of the Anwar-i Suhaili appeared. Regards Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Tue Mar 6 02:54:49 2001 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 21:54:49 -0500 Subject: Yoga Nidra Message-ID: <161227068012.23782.17133505262958896587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga Nidra? Is the nidra of sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? Thank you. Harsha V. Dehejia From EmperorYao at AOL.COM Tue Mar 6 04:38:13 2001 From: EmperorYao at AOL.COM (Mike Korvink) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 01 23:38:13 -0500 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <161227068009.23782.18404447331342406527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am unable to find the books: "Indo-Sumerian: a new approach to the problems of the Indus Script" by J V Kinnier Wilson and "The Bronze Age Harappans: A Bio-Anthropological Study of the Skeletons Discovered at Harappa" by Pratap C. Dutta Any assistance putting me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards, Michael Korvink From gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue Mar 6 09:18:58 2001 From: gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Gautama Vajracharya) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 03:18:58 -0600 Subject: Summer Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227068023.23782.6329397116020788484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> INTENSIVE SUMMER SANSKRIT At the request of a small community of Sanskrit students here in Madison Wisconsin, I am planning to teach an intensive Sanskrit course this summer. Following the Paninian grammar and tradition, I intend to teach the course in an ancient Indian style closely imitating the Pathasala or Gurukula type of Sanskrit schools found in India and Nepal. Thus the beginning students will be learning not only the basic vocabulary and grammar, but also the skills of speaking the language and chanting Sanskrit verses. Both of these skills, I believe, are extremely valuable for learning the language. Another important feature of my course will be a strong emphasis on writing Sanskrit sentences. A language, either ancient or modern, cannot be properly learnt without using it both in writing and speaking. All students, therefore, will be required to write at least one full page a day as a mandatory homework. Advanced students, who are interested in improving their knowledge of Sanskrit with chanting, writing and speaking are also encouraged to take this course. The main purpose of this course is not only to provide students with an alternative, but also to preserve the traditional way of learning Sanskrit. The international scholarly community is quite aware that this ancient Indian heritage is rapidly disappearing even in India. Therefore, I sincerely request the members of the community for their full support. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- Intensive Summer Sanskrit Monday through Friday 8:30-11:30 a.m. June 11 August 10 Tuition: $ 1,500 Classes will be held in the vicinity of the University of Wisconsin, Madison, a beautiful city with plenty of trees and lakes. The exact location of the classroom will be announced toward the end of May. For more information call (608) 238-9946 or write to me directly at the following addresses: 6105 Driftwood Avenue, Madison, WI 53705 or Dr. Gautama V. Vajracharya From jage at LOC.GOV Tue Mar 6 14:05:24 2001 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 09:05:24 -0500 Subject: Pending Conferences Message-ID: <161227068017.23782.10221510021424000751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tuesday, March 6, 2001 I deleted the message asking for information about future Indological conferences. Then I found this in the December 2000 'MLBD newsletter' (Motilal Banarsidass): "The International Conference on the Mahabharata, organized by the Chair in Hindu Studies, Concordia University, is going to be held at Concordia Univesity, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, from 7th to 9th June 2001. The themes are Methodological Problems of Teaching the Mahabharata; and Character Analysis Based on Ethical Issues." Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Tue Mar 6 14:32:00 2001 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 09:32:00 -0500 Subject: Pending Conferences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068020.23782.5629587647452438928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The dates of the MBh Conference in Montreal have been changed to May 18 - 20. Patricia On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:05:24 -0500 "James E. Agenbroad" wrote: > Tuesday, March 6, 2001 > I deleted the message asking for information about future Indological > conferences. Then I found this in the December 2000 'MLBD newsletter' > (Motilal Banarsidass): "The International Conference on the Mahabharata, > organized by the Chair in Hindu Studies, Concordia University, is going to > be held at Concordia Univesity, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, from 7th to 9th > June 2001. The themes are Methodological Problems of Teaching the > Mahabharata; and Character Analysis Based on Ethical Issues." > > Regards, > Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) > The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official > views of any government or any agency of any. > Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library > of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 6 18:23:48 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 10:23:48 -0800 Subject: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068031.23782.6621806694362205546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 6 19:23:48 2001 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 11:23:48 -0800 Subject: Yoga Nidra In-Reply-To: <005e01c0a5e8$d048c6c0$157c7586@carleton.ca> Message-ID: <161227068028.23782.3742557434765784726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some references that may be of use: Bhagavata Purana 3.9.21, 3.11.32 Identified with Yogamaya. 10.2.15 Brahma-samhita. 5.12, 5.17, 5.47 Jan --- "Harsha V. Dehejia" wrote: > Friends: > > Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga > Nidra? Is the nidra of > sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? > > Thank you. > > Harsha V. Dehejia __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 6 19:39:53 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 11:39:53 -0800 Subject: Yoga Nidra Message-ID: <161227068033.23782.12123223081540435979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Friends: Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga Nidra? Is the nidra of sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? Thank you. Harsha V. Dehejia >>> Ancient Tamil literature talks of Seshasayi having yoganidra sleep. Kind regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ghezziem at TIN.IT Tue Mar 6 13:04:16 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 13:04:16 +0000 Subject: R: (no subject) Message-ID: <161227068014.23782.15417641127915105356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friend, You can try to write, in my name, to dr. Marino Faliero, who has prepared the web page of the Department of Oriental Studies of Rome. The address of the site is: http:/pop.let.uniroma1.it/DSO:links/dsosrch.htm The personal e-mail of dr. Faliero is: faliero at uniroma1.it All the best, Yours Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Mike Korvink >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: (no subject) >Data: Mar, 6 mar 2001 4:38 > > I am unable to find the books: > > "Indo-Sumerian: a new approach to the problems of the Indus Script" by J V > Kinnier Wilson > > and > > "The Bronze Age Harappans: A Bio-Anthropological Study of the Skeletons > Discovered at Harappa" by Pratap C. Dutta > > Any assistance putting me in the right direction would be greatly > appreciated. > > Best Regards, > Michael Korvink From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Mar 6 21:26:25 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 13:26:25 -0800 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068039.23782.3317500304445297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse writes, of the recent article by N.S. Rajaram in the _Organizer_ (the RSS propaganda sheet), found at http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm: > A delightful read. I have a question concerning the following quote: > > "Where Witzel and his cohorts are holding up threat to "India and objective > scholarship" as their red flag,..." > > Since Witzel is mentioned together with his "not-so-eminent sidekick Steve > Farmer" (sorry Steve!) my question is: How many cohorts are there in a > two-man team? It reminds me of a story of Lyndon Johnson's told in the Pentagon papers. After winning a hand on a bluff, the losers ask the poker player what cards he had in his hand. He answers reluctantly, "Aces." The inevitable question pops up: "How many aces?" Answer: "One aces." In this case, Witzel had "one cohorts." Cheers, Steve From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Tue Mar 6 22:38:02 2001 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 14:38:02 -0800 Subject: Yoga Nidra In-Reply-To: <005e01c0a5e8$d048c6c0$157c7586@carleton.ca> Message-ID: <161227068042.23782.13899877984241562400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kaalidaasa, Raghu-va.m;sa 13.6: naabhi-praruu.dhaamburuhaasanena sa.mstuuyamaana.h prathamena dhaatraa / amu.m [= ocean] yugaantocita-yoga-nidra.h sa.mh.rtya lokaan puru.so 'dhi;sete // >Friends: > >Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga Nidra? Is the nidra of >sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? > >Thank you. > >Harsha V. Dehejia From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 6 23:36:42 2001 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 15:36:42 -0800 Subject: Yoga Nidra In-Reply-To: <20010306193953.31657.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068045.23782.9907059502684745237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > <<< > Friends: > > Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga Nidra? Is the nidra of > sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? > > Thank you. > > Harsha V. Dehejia > >>> > > Ancient Tamil literature talks of Seshasayi having yoganidra sleep. > > Kind regards, > SM > The classical Tamil text cilappatikAram (pre-Kalidasa?) mentions "aRi tuyil" ("conscious" sleep) or yoga nidra of viSNu at ATakamATam (thought to be Thiruvanantapuram's Padmanabhaswamy Temple) "ATakamATattu aRituyil amarntOn2" (cilapp: 26:62) >?From the Cologne Tamil Text Thesaurus at: http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/indologie/tamil/ttt_search.html Qcil26x62 \BT ATakamATattu aRituyil amarntOn2 \et Qcil26x63 \BT cETam koNTu cilar nin2Ru Etta \et Translation by R. Parthasarathy, "The Cilappatikaram of Ilanko Atikal", Columbia University Press, 1992: page 229, lines 70-71: "...appeared with offerings from ViSNu who sleeps in a trance at ATakamATam and blessed him". The Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon on the meaning of the phrase "aRituyil": otl aRituyil aRituyil a state of sleep in which the person is conscious of the outer world Regards, P. Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mccc at UEVORA.PT Tue Mar 6 17:36:06 2001 From: mccc at UEVORA.PT (Mariana Caixeiro) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 17:36:06 +0000 Subject: Help: diacritics true type fonts for Mac Message-ID: <161227068025.23782.16477410066319006382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members I went through all the privious messages related to diacritic or transliteration fonts for macintosh and I did not find any sugestion for this system. Information is only available for windows. Can I get information about how can I get a diacritics font to use with Mac Os 9.4. ? I have a old Normyn but it is not a true type font. Please could one of you informe me about this? Thank you Mariana Caixeiro From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Mar 6 20:55:59 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 21:55:59 +0100 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068036.23782.11122456077105576395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 6. mars 2001 19:24: > http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm A delightful read. I have a question concerning the following quote: "Where Witzel and his cohorts are holding up threat to "India and objective scholarship" as their red flag,..." Since Witzel is mentioned together with his "not-so-eminent sidekick Steve Farmer" (sorry Steve!) my question is: How many cohorts are there in a two-man team? (Those with a penchant for military history will know that this is a variety of the old US Marines question from the Korean war: "How many hordes are there in a Chinese platoon?") Regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Mar 7 04:14:45 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 01 23:14:45 -0500 Subject: info on a recent seminar in delhi Message-ID: <161227068048.23782.17738045942853794377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: SG Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 10:15 AM INTERNATIONAL SEMINAR ON 'SEWA HI PARMO DHARMAH': SEWA INTERNATIONAL organised a one-day seminar at the prestigious India International Center in Delhi on February 27, where German Professors from Universities in Germany participated. The renowned Professors were Indologist Dr. Edmund Weber, Dean of Institute of Inter-Cultural Understanding, Dr. Carl Wilhelm-Dahm, a retired Professor of Theology and Sociology, Dr. Axel H. Swinne, Dean of Sociology and Editor of Studios Iriteus, and a Social Economist, The Professors with their families visited various Sewa Projects in the city of Delhi on 26th February and were very much impressed by the quantum of Sewa activity as well as the quality being offered. They visited a TB clinic run by Shri Ramakrisnha Mission since 1933 and couple of Sewa activities run by Sewa Bharati Delhi. Dr. Edmund Weber initiated the discussion with the "prevailing view in the West that Hindu Philosophy does not deal with Charity and Hindus do not carry out any Sewa activity". He mentioned that the German Professors have embarked on this tour to get the first hand feel of the Charity and Sewa being performed by Hindus in Hindusthan. He applauded the Sewa activities being done by various organisations like RSS, VHP, Vanavasi Kalyan Ashram, Sewa Bharati, because he has witnessed the activity himself while visiting the slums and hospitals that are run by these organisations. Ma. Suryanarayan Rao, senior Pracharak and earlier Pramukh of Sewa Vibhag of RSS presented the keynote address for the seminar. He dealt in details the Philosophical, Cultural and social lineage of Hindus regarding Sewa. He extensively quoted various Sages and Saints of Bharat like Veda Vyasa, Tulsidas, Surdas, Tukaram, Ravidas and some more who inspired people to serve the society as well as the whole animate world. He also discussed the mindset of the person offering Sewa and the benefactor, as known to Hindus. Swami Dayananda Saraswati, an authority on Hindu Philosophy and an expert on Sewa, blessed the Seminar with an elaboration on state of Sewa in Hindu Philosophy. He quoted the Upanishads to support his statement that Hindu Philosophy as well as way of life has probably encouraged the followers to sacrifice for the welfare of the whole world. Very informative papers written by Dr. Madhav Mehendale on History of Sewa in Bharat and Jain Sadhwi Dr. Sadhana Jain on "Jain view of Sewa" were read at the seminar. Shri Shyam Gupta, Joint General Secretary of VHP described the concept of Ekal Vidyalaya (Single teacher school). Various organisations like Chinmaya Mission, VHP, Friends of Tribal Society, Sewa Bharati, Vanavasi Kalyan Kendra, produced the report of their Sewa activities in the country. In the valedictory session Dr. Dahm and Dr. Swinne explicated their impressions of their visits to Sewa Projects and the deliberations of the day. They said that "they had a different view of the Hindu charity before they came here to India, being their maiden visit, and are carrying a very positive view of Hindu charity now." Dr. Dahm said that, "he has been enlightened by certain new concepts like the Pracharaks and full timers not receiving any remuneration for the service they offer to the society as this does not exist in their country." Dr. Dahm was also impressed by the system of "Vanaprasthi"s joining the activity instead of "moving out with the dog" after retirement. Dr. Swinne said that "Shri Suryanarayana Rao emphasized the process of motivating youth and people and this is the key to encourage people to join this movement and that might uplift the people." He stressed "the need for motivating people as this had helped Germany to rise from the devastation of the II World war." Swami Gokulananda Maharaj, President of Ramakrishna Mission Delhi, bestowed the seminar with his valedictory message. Swamiji elaborated the concept of Sewa as professed by Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa and followed by Swami Vivekananda. Swamiji quoted some of the experiences of Swami Vivekananda to prove his points. The German Professors hoped that such deliberations with the experts between the West and the East, more so with Hindu scholars, should be conducted often so that the world can be presented with a better and purposeful way of Charity. The German Professors also attended a conference in Jawaharlal Nehru University on a similar theme. However, the Professors commented that the Seminar conducted by SI provided them with philosophical, cultural & historical background as well as contemporary information while the JNU conference failed to throw any light on the issue. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Mar 7 04:32:18 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 10:02:18 +0530 Subject: nidrajog Message-ID: <161227068050.23782.16794431643963657907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I once met a person,from Punjab, whose surname was NI(N)DRAJOG. rajesh kochhar From: Ashok Aklujkar Subject: Re: Yoga Nidra >Kaalidaasa, Raghu-va.m;sa 13.6: >naabhi-praruu.dhaamburuhaasanena sa.mstuuyamaana.h prathamena dhaatraa / >amu.m [= ocean] yugaantocita-yoga-nidra.h sa.mh.rtya lokaan puru.so >'dhi;sete // > >>Friends: >> >>Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga Nidra? Is the nidra of >>sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? >> >>Thank you. >> >>Harsha V. Dehejia From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 7 11:08:31 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 11:08:31 +0000 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <00f601c0a510$54e7a1a0$7e19893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227068053.23782.15535066062971412188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a recent article on this topic in the BSOAS, by Julia Leslie. DW On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Does anybody know the (probable) scientific name for the saarasa bird > ? I can't get to any suitable reference materials right now. > > Tks > Stephen Hodge > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 7 11:50:43 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 11:50:43 +0000 Subject: Conferences In-Reply-To: <00d701c0a54b$fec61ae0$2c9909ca@ravi> Message-ID: <161227068059.23782.10687974208258651838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Motilal Banarsidass wrote: > Does anyone know about the following conferences to be held in 2001-02 > > a.. Indian Studies Conference in Poland To be held in Krakow, September 2001. Second circular has gone out. Contact Lidia Sudyka, Institute of Oriental Philology al. Mickiewicza 9/11 31-120 Krak?w, Poland FAX: (48 12) 22-67-93 or try email at iforien at vela.filg.uj.edu.pl > c.. Seminar on Ayurveda in Lisbon Was to have been held in May, but has been postponed to late October. Organiser: Ana Salema -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 7 11:53:08 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 11:53:08 +0000 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227068061.23782.2960164796020458471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> oops. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:35:00 -0000 From: jl6 at soas.ac.uk Subject: Re: Query It's not in the BSOAS but in the JIP no 26 (1998), 455-487. Title: 'A bird bereaved: the identity and significance of Valmiki's kraunca.' ijl =========================== > On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Stephen Hodge wrote: > > > Does anybody know the (probable) scientific name for the saarasa > > bird ? I can't get to any suitable reference materials right now. From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Wed Mar 7 11:54:54 2001 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 11:54:54 +0000 Subject: Conferences Message-ID: <161227068064.23782.8562075783450624381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, As an addition to Dominik's recent message about the Krakow conference, more precise contact details; also, a repeat of details about the Mahabharata conference: >Does anyone know about the following conferences to be held in 2001-02 Answers about the two that I know about are added below. > > a.. Indian Studies Conference in Poland The 2nd International Conference on Indian Studies, to be held at the Jagiellonian University in Krakow, Poland, on 19th-23rd September 2001. Contacts: Renata Czekalska or Halina Marlewicz (e-mail: indconf at vela.filg.uj.edu.pl). > b.. International Conference on the Mahabharata in Canada International Conference on the Mahabharata, Concordia University, Montreal, Canada, on 18th-20th May 2001 (note that these are revised dates). Contact: Shrinivas Tilak (e-mail: shrinivast at hotmail.com). Yours sincerely John Brockington Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Mar 7 11:47:46 2001 From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 12:47:46 +0100 Subject: Query Message-ID: <161227068056.23782.12862167972419706885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, My colleague Ditte Bandini asked me to send her comment to the list: > > The article by Leslie is based on several hypotheses which are not > valid. I don't exlucde that the antigone crane is meant in the > Ramayana-passage she quotes, but it might as well several other birds. I > am discussing her article as well as that of Thieme in the forthcoming > StII. > > D.Bandini Dominik Wujastyk schrieb: > > There is a recent article on this topic in the BSOAS, by Julia Leslie. > > DW > > On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Stephen Hodge wrote: > > > Does anybody know the (probable) scientific name for the saarasa bird > > ? I can't get to any suitable reference materials right now. > > > > Tks > > Stephen Hodge > > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences >Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Wed Mar 7 20:56:07 2001 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 12:56:07 -0800 Subject: new edition of "The Roots of Ayurveda" Message-ID: <161227068069.23782.470686379232153761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, would an errata be available online ? I have had your book for a couple of years now, and have carefully been doing Sarasvati pUja to it thus far. Your mail will help me break the vow soon. Thanks, -Srini. Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > A new edition of my book has been published by Penguin India. Dated 2001, > it contains many updates and corrections to the first edition. > > Best, > Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 7 16:54:44 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 16:54:44 +0000 Subject: new edition of "The Roots of Ayurveda" Message-ID: <161227068066.23782.14704465453001152978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A new edition of my book has been published by Penguin India. Dated 2001, it contains many updates and corrections to the first edition. Best, Dominik From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 8 00:13:21 2001 From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 19:13:21 -0500 Subject: Yoga Nidra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068076.23782.488623888281592694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here's one reference from the MarkaNDeya PurANa (Devi-mAhAtmyam section): YoganidrA.m yadA vi.SNur-jagatyekArNavIk.rte / AstIrya ;se.sa.mabhajat kalpAnte bhagavAn prabhu.h // Swami Tyagananda Vedanta Society Boston > >Friends: > > > >Are you aware of any work that has been done on Yoga Nidra? Is the nidra of > >sheshashayi Vishnu considered yoga nidra? > > > >Thank you. > > > >Harsha V. Dehejia From Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 7 22:01:16 2001 From: Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ravi Chaudhary) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 22:01:16 +0000 Subject: An article mentioning History of Science Message-ID: <161227068071.23782.7409997189570523911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wish we could leave the rhetoric aside. How valid is the rest of the article on the history of science in India. Is that worthy of discussion ? regards Ravi Chuadhary From Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 7 23:37:32 2001 From: Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ravi Chaudhary) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 01 23:37:32 +0000 Subject: An article mentioning History of Science Message-ID: <161227068074.23782.3017828829396568420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I meant to refer to this article referred by Mr Madhuresan How valid are the theories of Seidenberg, and Playfair ? Could some light be shed ? Regards On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:23:48 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 8 17:10:09 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 01 12:10:09 -0500 Subject: An article mentioning History of Science Message-ID: <161227068079.23782.15209662030731225873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please check this.. http://www.crystalinks.com/newton.html Hopefully it is accurate, and shows how Newton had to fight it out at political level for several decades to get his theories accepted by scientists of his time, never mind the fact he made a few mistakes. His opponents also did not necessarily have any better ideas like relativity, but it took decades for a scientific idea to get accepted. About that article on science in India? We are in for the long haul :-) Best, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Mar 8 17:48:53 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 01 18:48:53 +0100 Subject: SV: An article mentioning History of Science Message-ID: <161227068082.23782.15988193618285816202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ravi Chaudhary [SMTP:Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 8. mars 2001 00:38: > How valid are the theories of Seidenberg, and Playfair ? The references for Seidenberg's papers are: Seidenberg, A. 1962. The Ritual Origin of Geometry. Archive for History of Exact Sciences 1:488-527. Seidenberg, A. 1978. The Origin of Mathematics. Archive for History of Exact Sciences 18:301-342. Seidenberg's papers are serious research and contain much interesting information. However, he has not met with general approval as far as his main hypothesis is concerned ("Vedic origins"). An indirect critique of Seidenberg is found in Carl B. Boyer. A History of Mathematics, page 7. (Seidenberg's papers are mentioned in the bibliography). Boyer essentially says that we cannot determine where geometry originated, nor for that matter whether it originated in one or several places independently. A discussion of John Playfair and Indian Astronomy is found in Thomas Trautmann "Aryans and British India" (p 84-89). The bottom line is that his views on the primacy of Indian astronomy were rejected by no less a man than the Marquis de Laplace. (I recommend Trautmann's book for a number of reasons.) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From tawady at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 8 19:19:53 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 01 19:19:53 +0000 Subject: Munda Substratum in Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227068084.23782.14581613620415219039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listers Some in this list have indicated a possible Munda (Austric) substratum in many of the Indic languages including that of Dravidian ones in South India. Although no major conclusive studies have been done on that premise, there are at least two marginal communities in the neighboring island nation of Sri Lanka who are at the verge of cultural extinction that show possible vestiges of Austric origins. They are the hunter-gatherer Veddas and "untouchable" Rodis. Both are fast forgetting any vestiges of non- Sinhalese ancestral languages unless some one records them for posterity. These are two articles which records some of the non IA or Dr. words used by these communities Who are the Rodis by Assif Husein http://groups.yahoo.com/group/varalaaRu/message/208 and Vel Worship in Sri Lanka by Dr. (Mrs.) Vimala Krishnapillai http://groups.yahoo.com/group/varalaaRu/message/207 for more information on Veddas of Sri Lanka try www.vedda.org Regards Raveen From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Fri Mar 9 03:44:05 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 01 03:44:05 +0000 Subject: SV: An article mentioning History of Science Message-ID: <161227068087.23782.17040239735407097262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An interesting web-page with info. on Seidenberg's ideas : http://math.truman.edu/~thammond/history/AbrahamSeidenberg.html E.g., Abraham Seidenberg advanced a theory that mathematics arose from a common origin, and that some the mathematics was preserved by an oral tradition, and very likely a religious tradition, perhaps one like the one seen in the Indian Sulvasutras. .... It is common to argue that counting and other elementary mathematics arose spontaneously throughout the world in response to a practical, or perhaps psychological, need. Abraham Seidenberg argues instead for a diffusion theory, that counting arose only once, and then spread throughout the world. etc. -Arun Gupta From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 9 11:13:38 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 01 11:13:38 +0000 Subject: new edition of "The Roots of Ayurveda" In-Reply-To: <3AA6A067.9E4EC305@mentor.com> Message-ID: <161227068089.23782.13872887005631195624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Srini Pichumani wrote: > Dominik, would an errata be available online ? :-) Yes, errata have been online since shortly after first publication. But I only mention some of the major points, not every typo. And in a burst of activity when I was doing the revision last year, I came up with quite a few more things which I have not bothered to add to the online errata, I'm afraid. See http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/roots-errata.hmtl There's no way you can avoid buying another copy, or two or three... :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 9 11:39:40 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 01 12:39:40 +0100 Subject: SV: new edition of "The Roots of Ayurveda" Message-ID: <161227068091.23782.5555165707337292958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk [SMTP:ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] skrev 9. mars 2001 12:14: > There's no way you can avoid buying another copy, or two or three... :-) Thank you for a wonderful business idea, Dominik! We will now all start *adding* errata to our otherwise perfect books, so that we can later remove them and have others buy our books several times over. (Why didn't I think of this myself? Why are other always so much smarter?) Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Fri Mar 9 17:50:51 2001 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 01 17:50:51 +0000 Subject: dharmapada (Sanskrit cribs for Pali texts) Message-ID: <161227068093.23782.4419222130969031020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On February 21, 2001, Phillip Ernest wrote: > Sanskrit translations of Pali texts Dhammapada with Skt ch?y?: Vidyabhawan Sanskrit Grantahmala 150. Third edition, 1983. Chowkhamba Vidyabhawan, Varanasi. From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sat Mar 10 03:54:59 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 01 21:54:59 -0600 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068095.23782.7368770845143380689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> >> "Where Witzel and his cohorts are holding up threat to "India and objective >> scholarship" as their red flag,..." >> I have a cuestion? >> Since Witzel is mentioned together with his "not-so-eminent sidekick Steve >> Farmer" (sorry Steve!) my question is: How many cohorts are there in a >> two-man team? May some of your said me where is the refutation from Witzel about the Rajaram dicheperment? I t is truth the Witzel is conservative of the europeism and Aryan invaderistic? Dr. Lolo Duran from U A de C > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Mar 10 06:07:42 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 01:07:42 -0500 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists In-Reply-To: <01c0a915$e1f4d460$LocalHost@mexnet.mcsa.net.mx> Message-ID: <161227068097.23782.16905326647623218165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Dr. Duran, since you asked publically an opener answer: This "German Romantic Colonialist Missionary Racist Communist" (NS Rajaram), along with his one man cohorts, S. Farmer, has already debunked N. Jha's and NS. Rajaram's "decipherment" in two articles in the "communist rag" FRONTLINE (Chennai) of Oct. 13, 2000,sqq. and in the equally red OUTLOOK, or so do some Hindutvavaadins say. See all papers and links at: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm and also, with subsequent discussion, at: http://www.safarmer.com/frontline/ and http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html And, please, do not forget to expand your knowledge and check NS Rajaram's pertinent articles in the Indian version of the Voelkische Beobachter, "The Organiser" of Oct. or Nov. 2000 http://www.organiser.org/ (same text as = PRAGNA of Oct. 2000: http://www.pragna.org/Art21001.html ) and cf. also http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm which reveal all the secret reasons, unimaginable to outside observers, for my writing above papers. Actually, also Amartya Sen's! Cf. also The Hindu Research Centre, http://www.hvk.org/articles/1200/124.html Finally, I can assure you that I am as conservative as Rajaram's statement (above) indicates. And certainly, as Aryan-invaderistic as the evidence will hold, i.e. little or none, so far. Please see my pertinent papers on the issue (via my website http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm), and watch out for the next and/or the second next issue of EJVS at http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ where most of these never-ending Aryan Questions will be dealt with, Euro-centrically from Massachusetts, and otherwise. Enjoy! Yours, qbsm, The M. Witzel =============== >May some of your said me where is the refutation from Witzel about the >Rajaram dicheperment? I t is truth the Witzel is conservative of the >europeism and Aryan invaderistic? >Dr. Lolo Duran >from U A de C >>> ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sat Mar 10 14:34:36 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 08:34:36 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Lord_Krishna_was_recognised_by_scholar=C2=92s_time_ago?= Message-ID: <161227068099.23782.14891488648976650738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- De: Subhash Chander Para: Radha-Govinda Mandir Fecha: Viernes 9 de Marzo de 2001 3:15 PM Asunto: RE: Acuso Recibo My dear friends: The last night I recibe this letter from this person. Therefore I answer the next lines. But My more humbly request to all of your that are very prominents and sages teachers. It to be more neutral in the words that we are using in the study of the literature consider sacra by living religions. And is very healthy and objective don't used corrosive, ambigue, laberintine, and offensive words.( Tribal, mythology or idols, for the hagiographical or protohistoric or traditional text like this man). Because we are incursioning in nor friendly skys of hiperspace and we become easy prize for the vaisnava-apolgetic fighters. If you want a exempla of this, I could sen to you outside of this list or only if the chairman of this list let me, I can send with anonimus or pseudonymous and interesting paper. But please read the next. > >I think you want to know what are basic books of >Hinduism? Three Vedas (Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samveda); >and Upnishadas (Vedanta). Bhagvad Gita is an (the >last) Upnishada. Puranas are books mainly on rituals, and they do not >give good philosophical view of Hinduism. There are >also other books which are just mythological stories >relating to different gods (including to Krishna); >and they are not exactly historical and nor very >philosophical - they did not contribute to my webpage >and are therefore not mentioned. > >Pranam, >Subhash Answer: Lord Krishna was recognised by scholar?s time ago by Horacio Fco. Arganis Juar?z Time to time, there are attempts of looking for more evidences to support our understanding about the historical means of our spiritual knowledge. But in the eagerness of get out our doubts, some time we are contributing with news founds. But is necessary maintain in mind, don?t be offensive in the name of to be ourselves so called racionalistics or cientifics and used hypercritical language for Lord Krishna and vedic history. For example is very used in the Indological books even from hindus authors, words like mythology that means- mitos- untruth, int the greek root of the spanish word men-ti-ra, falsity, Sanskrit- mithya. Other example is when some traditional believers said, ?In this work I will be probing that Lord Krishna was a historical personality?, etc.. Because, Lord had been recognised for time ago like historical fact: Dr. Bimabihari Majumdar 1968: ?The westerns scholars at first treated Krishna as a myth... But many of the orietalist in the present century have arrived at the conclusion that Krishna was a ksatrya warrior who fought at Kuruksetra,...? (1). Dr. R. C. Majumdar 1958: ?There is now a general consensus of opinion in favour of the historicity of Krishna. Many also hold the view that Vasudeva the Yadava hero, the cowherd boy Krishna in Gokula..were one and the same person.? (2) Horace H. Wilson, 1870: ?Rama and Krishna, who appear to have been originally real and historical characters,..? (3) Dr. Thomas J. Hopkins, 1978: ?From a strictly scholarly, historical standpoint, the KRISNA WHO APPEARS in the Bhagavad-Gita is the princely Krishna of the Mahabharata... Krishna the historical prince and charioteer of Arjuna.? (4) The New British Encyclopaedia: ?Vasudeva-Krisna, a Vrisni prince who was presumably also a religious leader levitated to the godhead by the 5th century B C.? (5) Rodolf Otto, 1933: ?That Krishna himself was a historical figure is indeed quite indubitable.? (6). 1.-Majundar, Bimabihari. Krishna in the History and Legend. University of Calcutta. 1969 pp. 5 2.-Majundar, R. C. The History and Culture of the Indian people, vol. i pp. 303. 3.-Wilson, Horace H. The Visnu Purana. Nag publisher?s 1989 pp.ii 4.- Hopkins, Thomas j. et al. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Five destined Scholars on the Krishna movement in the West. Grooves Press, N.Y. l983, pp.144. 5.-The New Encyclopaedia Britannic, 1984 vol. 7 micropedia, pp.7 6.- Otto, Rodolfo.The Original Gita, cit for Majumdar Bimabihari, ot. cit. pp.5 > From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Sat Mar 10 16:13:09 2001 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 11:13:09 -0500 Subject: Naciketas? Message-ID: <161227068102.23782.15623067635663498732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Which is the best English spelling of the lead character's name in the Katha Upanishad (i.e., in terms of how the name should be pronounced)? Naciketas Nachiketas Natchiketas Something else? Help on this will be appreciated. Dr. George Cronk Chair, Department of Philosophy and Religion Bergen Community College Paramus, NJ 07508 http://www.bergen.cc.nj.us/faculty/gcronk/Dept1.html From hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Mar 11 02:12:14 2001 From: hoysala at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Shikaripura Harihareswara) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 18:12:14 -0800 Subject: Enquiry - How do I unsubscribe temporarily for three weeks? Message-ID: <161227068111.23782.11833977270252782548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sri "Administrator" of the List, Please advice me how do I unsubscribe to the List temporarily for about three weeks? Thanks! -Harihareswara ====== From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 10 23:23:36 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 18:23:36 -0500 Subject: Gnoli's translation of zivadRSti Message-ID: <161227068109.23782.1962637911548424409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can anyone verify (or not) if the translation of Somananda's zivadRSti in "Hindu Theology" by Jose Pereira page 364 is Gnoli's translation from East and West Vol. VIII (1957). I know that the footnote at the end of the translation seems to say it is but I ask the question because what appears to be also indicated as a quote from Gnoli's translation in "The Doctrine of Recognition", R.K. Kaw page 66 (see footnote 3) is different from what appears in Pereira's book. I was in NY the other day to photocopy Gnoli's article from the NYPL but unfortunately the journal "East and West" was in storage and not available. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sun Mar 11 00:35:40 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 18:35:40 -0600 Subject: thanks !!!! Message-ID: <161227068125.23782.4330475133948026848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Okey Dr. Wizel: I shall pass your nice and documented letter to my friend Dr. L. Duran. At your service Horacio Fco. Arganis J. PD.- congratulations for you comments in the Steven Rosen's book. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Mar 10 18:43:50 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 18:43:50 +0000 Subject: Naciketas? In-Reply-To: <007801c0a97d$0a3dc3c0$70692c3f@dfqyq> Message-ID: <161227068104.23782.11911609347176098499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naciketas, representing the stem form of the word in Sanskrit, is generally used by scholars. The c represents unaspirated palatal c, a bit like the second consonant in "church". (Ch is used for the aspirated version, like the *first* consonant in that word.) In older texts, "ch" may be used for the unaspirated version and "chh" for the aspirated version. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Dr. George Cronk writes: >Which is the best English spelling of the lead character's name in the >Katha Upanishad (i.e., in terms of how the name should be pronounced)? > >Naciketas >Nachiketas >Natchiketas >Something else? From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Mar 11 02:53:09 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 18:53:09 -0800 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068121.23782.7846490632268207399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upandhya writes: > The following site talks about the presence of horses at the Indus site > (claiming that horses were known to inhabitants of the Harappan > civilization) , and also contains a brief critique of Witzel and Farmer: > > http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/horse1.htm > > S.Kalyanaraman seems to be involved in some way with this site, as a letter > written to him by some archaeologist is published on it. > > Would appreciate any comments on this. I'm recovering from a serious accident and can't get involved much in List discussions at present, Satya, but nota bene: All this material (including S. Kalyanaraman's notoriously confused web pages) is hardly news to regulars on this List. I suggest that before you try to get anyone to discuss Kalyanaraman's opinions on this List that you spend a few hours wading through his labyrinthal website (best of luck!). S.A. Farmer From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 10 20:07:45 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 01 20:07:45 +0000 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068107.23782.2534557001522650524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In one of his articles (whose links M.Witzel gave), Rajaram says that the Indian horse was distinct from the Central Asian horse and that the Rg Veda talks of horses having thirty four ribs (seventeen on each side). He also says that horse bones have been found at all levels at Harappan sites. I would appreciate it if M. Witzel or others could talk a bit about Rajaram's horse(es) or give some references. In particular i wish to know about whether there is disagreement between respected archaeologists on this issue. As regards the Harappan seals, it is true that no horse seals have been found, but does that really mean anything? Seals depicting bulls have been found, but not seals depicting cows afaik. As an aside, i wish to know how an industrial engineer gets to figure so prominently in the present debate. -Satya >From: Michael Witzel >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: SV: An article mentionig Indologists >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:07:42 -0500 > >Dearest Dr. Duran, > >since you asked publically an opener answer: > >This "German Romantic Colonialist Missionary Racist Communist" (NS >Rajaram), along with his one man cohorts, S. Farmer, has already debunked >N. Jha's and NS. Rajaram's "decipherment" in two articles in the "communist >rag" FRONTLINE (Chennai) of Oct. 13, 2000,sqq. and in the equally red >OUTLOOK, or so do some Hindutvavaadins say. > >See all papers and links at: >http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm >and also, with subsequent discussion, at: >http://www.safarmer.com/frontline/ and >http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html > >And, please, do not forget to expand your knowledge and check NS Rajaram's >pertinent articles in the Indian version of the Voelkische Beobachter, "The >Organiser" of Oct. or Nov. 2000 http://www.organiser.org/ (same text as = >PRAGNA of Oct. 2000: http://www.pragna.org/Art21001.html ) and cf. also >http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm which reveal all the secret >reasons, unimaginable to outside observers, for my writing above papers. >Actually, also Amartya Sen's! >Cf. also The Hindu Research Centre, >http://www.hvk.org/articles/1200/124.html > >Finally, I can assure you that I am as conservative as Rajaram's statement >(above) indicates. And certainly, as Aryan-invaderistic as the evidence >will hold, i.e. little or none, so far. >Please see my pertinent papers on the issue (via my website >http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm), >and watch out for the next and/or the second next issue of EJVS at >http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ where most of these never-ending >Aryan Questions will be dealt with, Euro-centrically from Massachusetts, >and otherwise. > >Enjoy! Yours, qbsm, The M. Witzel > >=============== > > >May some of your said me where is the refutation from Witzel about the > >Rajaram dicheperment? I t is truth the Witzel is conservative of the > >europeism and Aryan invaderistic? > >Dr. Lolo Duran > >from U A de C > >>> > >======================================================== >Michael Witzel >Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University >2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA > >ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) >home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > >Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 11 02:02:36 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 01 02:02:36 +0000 Subject: SV: An article mentionig Indologists Message-ID: <161227068113.23782.13967373607906139806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following site talks about the presence of horses at the Indus site (claiming that horses were known to inhabitants of the Harappan civilization) , and also contains a brief critique of Witzel and Farmer: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/horse1.htm S.Kalyanaraman seems to be involved in some way with this site, as a letter written to him by some archaeologist is published on it. Would appreciate any comments on this. -Satya >From: Satya Upadhya >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: SV: An article mentionig Indologists >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:07:45 -0000 > >In one of his articles (whose links M.Witzel gave), Rajaram says that the >Indian horse was distinct from the Central Asian horse and that the Rg Veda >talks of horses having thirty four ribs (seventeen on each side). He also >says that horse bones have been found at all levels at Harappan sites. > >I would appreciate it if M. Witzel or others could talk a bit about >Rajaram's horse(es) or give some references. In particular i wish to know >about whether there is disagreement between respected archaeologists on >this >issue. > >As regards the Harappan seals, it is true that no horse seals have been >found, but does that really mean anything? Seals depicting bulls have been >found, but not seals depicting cows afaik. > >As an aside, i wish to know how an industrial engineer gets to figure so >prominently in the present debate. > >-Satya > > > >>From: Michael Witzel >>Reply-To: Indology >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: Re: SV: An article mentionig Indologists >>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:07:42 -0500 >> >>Dearest Dr. Duran, >> >>since you asked publically an opener answer: >> >>This "German Romantic Colonialist Missionary Racist Communist" (NS >>Rajaram), along with his one man cohorts, S. Farmer, has already debunked >>N. Jha's and NS. Rajaram's "decipherment" in two articles in the >>"communist >>rag" FRONTLINE (Chennai) of Oct. 13, 2000,sqq. and in the equally red >>OUTLOOK, or so do some Hindutvavaadins say. >> >>See all papers and links at: >>http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm >>and also, with subsequent discussion, at: >>http://www.safarmer.com/frontline/ and >>http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html >> >>And, please, do not forget to expand your knowledge and check NS Rajaram's >>pertinent articles in the Indian version of the Voelkische Beobachter, >>"The >>Organiser" of Oct. or Nov. 2000 http://www.organiser.org/ (same text as = >>PRAGNA of Oct. 2000: http://www.pragna.org/Art21001.html ) and cf. also >>http://www.organiser.org/21jan2001/cover2.htm which reveal all the secret >>reasons, unimaginable to outside observers, for my writing above papers. >>Actually, also Amartya Sen's! >>Cf. also The Hindu Research Centre, >>http://www.hvk.org/articles/1200/124.html >> >>Finally, I can assure you that I am as conservative as Rajaram's statement >>(above) indicates. And certainly, as Aryan-invaderistic as the evidence >>will hold, i.e. little or none, so far. >>Please see my pertinent papers on the issue (via my website >>http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm), >>and watch out for the next and/or the second next issue of EJVS at >>http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ where most of these never-ending >>Aryan Questions will be dealt with, Euro-centrically from Massachusetts, >>and otherwise. >> >>Enjoy! Yours, qbsm, The M. Witzel >> >>=============== >> >> >May some of your said me where is the refutation from Witzel about the >> >Rajaram dicheperment? I t is truth the Witzel is conservative of the >> >europeism and Aryan invaderistic? >> >Dr. Lolo Duran >> >from U A de C >> >>> >> >>======================================================== >>Michael Witzel >>Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University >>2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA >> >>ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) >>home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm >> >>Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sun Mar 11 14:20:53 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 01 19:50:53 +0530 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227068123.23782.4953698654081072665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of the two Himalayan rivers Indus and Brahmaputra ( both about 1800miles / 2900km ) which one is the longer and by how much? rajesh kochhar From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Mar 12 02:43:59 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 01 21:43:59 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Bamiyan, Ayodhya and Abuse of History Message-ID: <161227068127.23782.5067646034845830632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: sikhimail at yahoo.com Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:17am Subject: Bamiyan, Ayodhya and the Abuse of History To understand why the reflex reaction of both Islamists and Marxists to Taliban madness is to draw parallels between Bamiyan and Ayodhya, we must first enquire under what circumstances these parallels would be valid. **** 1) Once upon time, there stood a magnificent mosque in Bamiyan, one of the holiest among mosques of Afghanistan. 2) Barbaric Buddhist invaders overran the Hindu Kush region, putting to sword many infidels, ie, Muslims, along the way. The barbarians boastfully recorded that they made a great pile of the skulls of the infidels, which is not surprising, considering that the invading Buddhists regarded the massacre of infidels as a sacred duty enjoined upon them by the Buddha. 3) On successfully completing the destruction of regions in and around Bamiyan, and massacring, as usual, a great many infidels, the invaders proceed to destroy the beautiful Bamiyan mosque, because they regarded the destruction of holy places of infidels as a sacred duty of true believers, mandated by none other then the Buddha himself. 4) Then both to give total satisfaction to their Buddha, as well as to render the humiliation of the subjugated Muslims complete, they erect a statue of the Buddha at the very place where the mosque once stood. And they also bury the minarets and other debris of the mosque beneath the Buddha statue, and the pathway leading up to it. 5) Years, decades, centuries pass, throughout which, Muslims keep attempting to regain their holy site at Bamiyan. Oral histories record many battles fought, and many lives sacrificed. 6) Then, when Muslim assertiveness grows in magnitude towards the end of 20th century, and also Buddhist dominance diminishes, a movement to regain the lost Bamiyan site gains popularity. By this time, not only have the Buddhists ceased to offer prayers at the site, but also, the Muslims have begun to do so. 7) At this point, Marxist 'historians' of Afghanistan, who, having successfully exploited a 'socialist' system to their advantage, had thrived on state patronage, had converted institutions into their pocket burroughs, step in. They release pamphlets, the most notorious of them titled, quite unabashedly, "The Political Abuse of History" (!), arguing that, let alone the Bamiyan mosque, no mosque was ever destroyed by the Buddhist rulers and invaders in Afghanistan. The mosque that was allegedly destroyed, they claim, was actually situated in Burkina Faso. Even as these 'historians' side blatantly with Buddhist communalists, they claim that theirs is an 'objective' and 'independent' historical analysis. They also advance some crackpot theories, such as that "Muslim" is an articificial construct whereas "Buddhist" is a very real and meaningful identity. 'Logic' such as this is offered as proof of the non- existence of the Bamiyan mosque. 8) The government of Afghanistan attempts to resolve the dispute by settling the question of whether a mosque existed at the Bamiyan site before the Buddha statues were erected. A dialogue is arranged between the contending parties: the Buddhist and Muslim activists. Lo and behold, who are representing the Buddhist side as its 'experts' and consels but these very 'objective' and 'independent' Marxist historians! To top it all, these 'historians' run away from the debate soon after joining it, because they cannot counter the mass of evidence gathered by the Muslim side establishing the existence of the mosque! 9) Dialogue is totally shelved; the Marxists go back to their pamphleteering, duly amplified by Marxist publications, some of them bearing names such as, paradoxically enough, "The Muslim". Attitudes harden, matters come to a boil. Muslim hordes destroy the Bamiyan statue. Even as many Muslims are pleased that the statues are gone, they would nevertheless regard and condemn the demolition as a criminal act, not because it is "unIslamic" -- of course there exists no scriptural justification for it -- but because the canons of modern, secular law that Afghanistan is governed by say so. **** If that is how the events in Afghanistan have played out, then comparing the shelling of the Buddha statues to the demolition of Babri Masjid would be quite in order, even setting aside arguments such as that neither the antiquity nor the artistic/archaeological significance of babri Masjid is a tenth of that of Bamiyan statues. Is it that this logic is lost on Marxists? Certainly not. Marxists are conditioned to go on the offensive whenever they find themselves in an inconvenient situation. The strategy is to let loose a stream of bombast, bluff and bluster, turn the tables using even manifestly crude logic, and thereby throw opponents off-balance ensuring that the latter will never gain enough time to collect their wits while the situation lasts. Later on, the situ- ation will be forgotten anyway, and the uncomfortable questions that the Marxists would have been compelled to answer in more ideal conditions would never have been asked in the first place. Marxist 'historians' have been peddling lies regarding the destruction of Hindu holy places by Islamic invaders and rulers. The foremost among the lies is the brazen assertion that even if there had been the odd demolition, it was not motivated by religious considerations. It was all political or economic. Temples were targetted for their wealth. Mosques were erected to proclaim -- and thank God for -- political victory. Today, at the dawn of 21st century, we have ready evidence to counter these lies. Everybody is agreed that the Taliban are "medieval", right? If these guys would -- despite the countervailing, modernizing 21st century influences around them, despite international outcry -- destroy defenceless "idols" standing unadorned and unattended to; and do so not only completely unprovoked but on the grounds that scripture commanded them to do so; .... what would they have done if they had really lived in medieval times, invaded Ayodhya, encountered resistance from the infidels, suffered losses - though incosequential in the end -- on account of this resistance, and witnessed 'idol worship' wherever they went? In the context of discussing the Taliban offensive, bringing the destruction of the Babri Masjid into the picture is to place a red herring in the path of inquiries such as the above. The Marxists, naturally, want to evade these questions. Shout and scream and do a song and dance about Babri Masjid and VHP/RSS's 'hypocrisy', and hope that the situation will pass: that's their strategy. I'm afraid it may yet succeed, if one goes by the precedents, and yet another oportunity to expose the tissue of Marxist lies may yet go un-seized. Sikhivahan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 12 14:42:15 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 06:42:15 -0800 Subject: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia In-Reply-To: <01C0AAF7.8E9446A0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068137.23782.15970674577459759255.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It was M.G.S. Hodgson who in 1970 coined this term: "by the sixteenth century, most of the East Christian, Hindu, and Theravada Buddhist peoples found themselves more or less enclaved in an Islamicate world where Muslim standards of taste commonly made their way even into independent kingdoms, like Hindu Vijayanagar or Norman Sicily." (p.120, Hodgson, Rethinking world history: essays on Europe, Islam and World history, Edited by E. Burke III, Cambridge Univ. Press) Because you are interested in Hindu, Hindutva, Islamicate culture of North India, this will be interesting: P. B. Wagoner, "Sultan among Hindu Kings", J. Asian Studies, 55, 4, 1996: 851-880. Regards, SM --- Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dominik Wujastyk [SMTP:ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] skrev 12. mars 2001 13:11: > > The North Carolina Center for South Asia Studies and the > > Triangle South Asia Consortium announce: > > The First Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia: > > May I ask a stupid question? What is the difference between "Islamic" and > "Islamicate"? > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Mon Mar 12 13:52:33 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 07:52:33 -0600 Subject: Asking?? Message-ID: <161227068135.23782.14806053591833134771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- De: Radha-Govinda Mandir Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Fecha: Lunes 5 de Marzo de 2001 8:10 AM Asunto: Asking?? My dear Sirs: Namaste. I working in a research for my thesis about the history of Srimad Bhagavatam. But I am very curious about the papers of criticism to counter criticism of Rajaram and Witzel et al. Could some of your send me by e-mail of this informations, becuase I had problems for open the web-sites. Also, I need that your can help for looking about some funds in the Changchou ruins in South China maked by the archelogist in this places the last century. If you do have some information, becuase I need know all about the estatigraphic, the dates of this grounds, etc. I will be very please for any help.If you had new founds of somethiong like that please send me. My name is Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez from the U A de C in Saltillo Coah. North-Mexico. Atte. At the service of yours. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 12 16:17:02 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 08:17:02 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia Message-ID: <161227068149.23782.13752180441505052015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Thank you for the information! I have never heard the term before, but when I see it explained, it seems fairly logical to create such a term. Islamicate then becomes "Islamic without the religion of Islam" or "non-Islamic but Islam-influenced". Quite neat. Lars Martin >>> Thanks for kind acknowledgement. Yes, to many South Indians, some temple practices of Northern Hindus appear highly Islamicate. One of the main differences between Hindi vs. Urdu and the creation of Devanagari vs. Islamic scripts is the Hindus' efforts to "come out" of their Islamicate culture. This is one reason why an easy Roman based script is not acceptable to many politicians. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Mon Mar 12 15:07:31 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 10:07:31 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Bamiyan, Ayodhya and Abuse of History In-Reply-To: <007e01c0aa9e$4d6fc860$149dfea9@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <161227068140.23782.18171574480460418084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Even though this topic has been closed by the list owner "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" has written as follows: >If that is how the events in Afghanistan have played out, then >comparing the shelling of the Buddha statues to the demolition of >Babri Masjid would be quite in order, even setting aside >arguments such as that neither the antiquity nor the >artistic/archaeological significance of babri Masjid is a tenth >of that of Bamiyan statues. By his own argument if the artistic significance of Babri masjid was so trivial, what was the need to demolish it other than to attract world wide attention? In this sense both are the outcome of the same desire. >Is it that this logic is lost on Marxists? Certainly not. You are just a faithful follower of Hitler who called his opponents marxists but signed a secret treaty with Stalin. --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Never make anything simple and efficient when a way can be found to make it complex and wonderful. From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Mar 12 15:13:26 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 10:13:26 -0500 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227068144.23782.1546806526014631999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This question should be answerable by a consultation of an encyclopedia, a world almanac, or a visit to your university or public library. It is an easy one by that route but on the other hand it will be pure chance if any on the list know it offhand and by memory, as they might what is the best book in English on the karma doctrine, or the best in French on Indo-Aryan origins. Sincerely, Allen W. Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> Rajesh Kochhar 03/11 9:20 AM >>> Of the two Himalayan rivers Indus and Brahmaputra ( both about 1800miles / 2900km ) which one is the longer and by how much? rajesh kochhar From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Mar 12 16:41:44 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 11:41:44 -0500 Subject: 2 points to note Message-ID: <161227068153.23782.5037461230229905124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vaNakkam 1. It is clearly a forwarded article. Aditya made the first MISTAKE by attributing the article to me. 2. Aditya wrote "You are just a faithful follower of Hitler ..." This is A MISTAKE OF GRAVE PROPORTIONS. I demand an unqualified apology from Aditya on this public forum. I am not a supporter of Hitler, faithful or not. 3. This sort of personal accusations has to stop. Hence, I also request the list owner to revoke the posting privileges of Aditya for making such nauseating comments on others. 4. It needs to be reminded to Aditya that I am on this forum for 99% solely to read and learn from the postings from many distinguished scholars. Hence, an occasional posting from me ! - Suresh ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic To: Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: Bamiyan, Ayodhya and Abuse of History > Even though this topic has been closed by the list owner "L. Suresh > Kumar-LSK" has written as follows: > > >If that is how the events in Afghanistan have played out, then > >comparing the shelling of the Buddha statues to the demolition of > >Babri Masjid would be quite in order, even setting aside > >arguments such as that neither the antiquity nor the > >artistic/archaeological significance of babri Masjid is a tenth > >of that of Bamiyan statues. > By his own argument if the artistic significance of Babri masjid was so > trivial, what was the need to demolish it other than to attract world wide > attention? In this sense both are the outcome of the same desire. > > >Is it that this logic is lost on Marxists? Certainly not. > You are just a faithful follower of Hitler who called his opponents marxists > but signed a secret treaty with Stalin. > > --- > Yours sincerely, > Aditya Mishra > Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com > Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya > ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 > Random thought of the day: > Never make anything simple and efficient when a way can be found > to make it complex and wonderful. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 12 12:11:27 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 12:11:27 +0000 Subject: Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia Message-ID: <161227068130.23782.9350287009327863049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 09 March 2001 17:36 -0500 From: afroz taj The North Carolina Center for South Asia Studies and the Triangle South Asia Consortium announce: The First Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia: South Asian Islamic Aesthetics: Music and Literary Production April 13, 14, and 15, 2001 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill http://www2.ncsu.edu:8010/tsac/islam.html If you are interested in attending this Workshop, please send an email message to John Caldwell (caldwell at unity.ncsu.edu). Space is limited, so we will accept requests on a first come first served basis until all spaces are full. Program for Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia Topic for 2001: South Asian Islamic Aesthetics -- Music and Literary Production North Carolina Center for South Asia Studies Venue: Toy Lounge, Dey Hall (4th floor) University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, April 13-15, 2001 April 13, 2:00-5:00 pm. Poetry, Power and Place 2:00 pm. Paul Losensky (Indiana University), "Building a Career: Architecture in the Life and Poetry of Kalim Kashani" 3:00 pm. Break 3:30 pm. Nargis Virani (Washington University at St. Louis), "Pluralist or Garbled Poetics? The Mulamma?at of Jalal-al-Din Rumi" 4:30-5:00 pm. Comment and Discussion: Shantanu Phukan April 14, 8:30 a.m.- 12:30 pm Literary and Musical Genres in Local Languages and Contexts 8:30 am. F. Nalini Delvoye (?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes and Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud, Paris), "Dhrupad Songs in Braj Language: Catering to the Taste of Indo-Persian Rulers in Medieval India" 9:30 am. Farina Mir (Columbia University), "Representations of Piety and Community in Late-nineteenth-century Punjabi Qisse" 10:30 am. Break 11:00 am. Christopher Lee (Iowa State University), "Traditional, Progressive, Modern and Timely: Four discourses of and about Urdu poetry in Varanasi, India." 12:00 - 12:30 pm, Comment and Discussion: Frances Pritchett (Columbia University) April 14, 2:15-5:15 p.m. Modern literary responses to saint cults 2:15 pm. Farooq Hamid (University of Pennsylvania), "Hagiography Continuing and Continued: The Case of a Medieval Chishti Sufi, Farid ad-Din Ganj-i Shakar (d. 664/1265)" 3:15 pm. Break 3:45 pm. Kelly Pemberton (University of California at Berkeley), "Shattering the Mirror: Urdu Literature, Reformist Discourses, and the Shaping of Muslim Consciousness in the Sufi Milieu" 4:45-5:15 pm, Comment and Discussion: Regula Qureshi (University of Alberta) April 14, 8 p.m. A Concert of Hindustani light classical music by Jyoti Swaroop Pande, featuring performance of marsiya and soz pieces. April 15, 9:00 a.m.- Noon. Muharram performance traditions in practice 9:00 am. Amy Bard (Harvard University), "'He Made Me Able to Light Up the Gathering': Zahidah Baji and the Mediation of Music and Text in Shi?i Majlis-e?aza" 10:00 am. Break 10:30 -12 pm Workshop Wrap-up and Discussion: Carl Ernst Dr. Afroz Taj Assistant Professor Hindi-Urdu Program, NCSU Director of Public Programs, NC Center for South Asia Studies http://sasw.chass.ncsu.edu/fl/faculty/taj/hindi/ 919-515-9302 (office) 919-515-6981 (fax) Room 138, 1911 Building Dept. of Foreign Languages and Literature North Carolina State University Raleigh NC 27695 919-851-1119 102 Trinity Woods Dr. Raleigh NC 27607 ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Mar 12 12:22:53 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 13:22:53 +0100 Subject: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia Message-ID: <161227068133.23782.2057553910465407478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk [SMTP:ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] skrev 12. mars 2001 13:11: > The North Carolina Center for South Asia Studies and the > Triangle South Asia Consortium announce: > The First Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia: May I ask a stupid question? What is the difference between "Islamic" and "Islamicate"? Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Mar 12 16:01:30 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 17:01:30 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture in South Asia Message-ID: <161227068146.23782.12977085240063938821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 12. mars 2001 15:42: > It was M.G.S. Hodgson who in 1970 coined this term: > "by the sixteenth century, most of the East Christian, Hindu, > and Theravada Buddhist peoples found themselves more or less > enclaved in an Islamicate world where Muslim standards of taste > commonly made their way even into independent kingdoms, > like Hindu Vijayanagar or Norman Sicily." > (p.120, Hodgson, Rethinking world history: essays on > Europe, Islam and World history, Edited by > E. Burke III, Cambridge Univ. Press) > > Because you are interested in Hindu, Hindutva, Islamicate > culture of North India, this will be interesting: > P. B. Wagoner, "Sultan among Hindu Kings", J. Asian Studies, > 55, 4, 1996: 851-880. Thank you for the information! I have never heard the term before, but when I see it explained, it seems fairly logical to create such a term. Islamicate then becomes "Islamic without the religion of Islam" or "non-Islamic but Islam-influenced". Quite neat. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Mon Mar 12 22:17:38 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 17:17:38 -0500 Subject: question Message-ID: <161227068157.23782.12162387996230129730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is more a matter of geology than Indology, but it's interesting that the best figures I can find from the Encyclopaedia Britannica (available online) are exactly equal for the two rivers (see http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_table/0,5716,126476,00.html). There is some very detailed Brahmaputra information on NASA's site (see http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/DAAC_DOCS/geomorphology/GEO_4/GEO_PLATE_F-13.HTML) but, reassuringly for those concerned about productive use of their taxpayer dollars, no one seems to have analysed it carefully to estimate the length of the river with greater precision. Funk & Wagnall's encyclopaedia, on the other hand (see http://www.funkandwagnalls.com/encyclopedia/getpage.asp?abspage=/articles/012000b/012000553.asp) puts the length of the Indus at 2736km (1700miles) and the Brahmaputra (http://www.funkandwagnalls.com/encyclopedia/getpage.asp?abspage=/articles/003002a/003002286.asp at 2700km (1680miles), so a careful selection of sources gives the prize to the Indus. More honestly, the degree of precision involved probably doesn't allow us to answer this question using the published figures from encyclopaedias (and probably almanacs, though I haven't looked any up). Allen, it's all very well to direct people in the US to their 'university or public library', but Dr. Kochhar's email was from India, and you must have some idea of the deficiencies of university and public libraries in India. Regards, Rohan. >This question should be answerable by a consultation of an >encyclopedia, a world almanac, or a visit to your university or public >library. It is an easy one by that route but on the other hand it >will be pure chance if any on the list know it offhand and by memory, >as they might what is the best book in English on the karma doctrine, >or the best in French on Indo-Aryan origins. > >Sincerely, > >Allen W. Thrasher > > > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. > >>>> Rajesh Kochhar 03/11 9:20 AM >>> >Of the two Himalayan rivers Indus and Brahmaputra ( both about >1800miles / 2900km ) which one is the longer and by how much? >rajesh kochhar From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 12 17:32:20 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 17:32:20 +0000 Subject: 2 points to note Message-ID: <161227068155.23782.4821872004872611226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Suresh, By forwarding the article, you clearly signal your agreement with it. Thus, Aditya's characterization would hold. As for 'personal accusations', you have certainly indulged in your fair share of them. Over the last three months, you have sent me, not to mention some others on this list, at least 5 mails with completely offensive language. Now that you *think* you are on the receiving end, you sing a different tune. You want the moderator of the list to stop Aditya's posting privileges for his 'nauseating' remarks. What about your nauseating remarks about Muslims and Islam? They are far more offensive than anything Aditya has said. Thus, your posting privileges should also be stopped. What was the point in forwarding this article? Even as an ex-post-facto first-principles argument, it is devoid of any validity whatsoever. It is just a piece of junk and as such whatever it may signify is meaningless and cannot contribute to any discussion. All that it signified is your approval of it, which says something about your understanding of history. Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Mar 13 03:36:26 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 19:36:26 -0800 Subject: Herodotus/Mahabharata question Message-ID: <161227068162.23782.6904727754391750966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quick bibliographical question: There is a famous passage in Herodotus (esp. 3.102), raised in discussing the tribute Indians paid to the Achaemenids, that speaks of giant Indian ants that supposedly brought gold to the surface when digging their tunnels. Could someone point me to the Mahabharata passages that tell the same or a similar story? The story is discussed, among other places, by B. Lauffer, 'Die Sage von den goldgrabenden Ameisen,' T'oung Pao (1908) 9:429-452. Unfortunately, I no longer have a copy of that article at hand. The story illustrates the kinds of story that could pass fairly readily between India and Greece after the late 6th century BCE, thanks apparently to the Persian conquests in that period in NW India. I'm interested in such communications since I'm trying to track down evidence of more important (if indirect) influences of the Achaemenids on the canonization of Vedic sources in the 6th-5th centuries. From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 13 03:40:00 2001 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 01 19:40:00 -0800 Subject: Nobel prize winner on Indian identity Message-ID: <161227068165.23782.1102077088817836283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Amartya Sen on Indian National Identity >???From Indian Express March 4, 2001 Section II Pg. 8 Those who argue that the Indian identity has to be in some way derivative on Hindu identity point out not only that the Hindus constitute a large majority of people in this country, but also that historically Hinduism has been the mainstay of the Indian civilization. There is clearly some substance in this argument, and the counter arguments can be considered only after the basic facts of the case have been recognized. There are three distinct issues here: (1) The first is not concerned with history at all. Identity is not a matter of discovery ? of history any more than of the present ? and has to be chosen with reasoning. Even if it were the case that Indian history were primarily Hindu history, we still would have to determine how a pluralist and multi-religious population can share an Indian identity without sharing the same religion. This, of course, is the basis of secularism in India, and our reasoning about priorities in dealing with competing conceptions of Indian identity need not be parasitic on history. The makers of the Indian constitution recognized that fully, as did the United States in adopting a largely secular constitution for a mostly Christian population. The need to reason and choose cannot be given over to the observation of history, and this point relates to a more general claim I have tried to defend elsewhere ? in a lecture to the Asiatic Society entitled `On Interpreting India's Past' ? arguing that while we cannot live without history, we need not live within it either. (2) The second point is more historical. India has been a multi- religious country for a very long time. Aside from the obvious and prominent presence of Muslims in India for well over a millennium (Muslim Arab traders started settling in what is now Kerala from the 8th century), India has had Christians from atleast the 4th century, Jews from the time of the fall of Jerusalem, Parsis from the 7th century, and Sikhs from the time that religion was born. Also pre- Muslim India was not, as it is sometimes claimed, mainly a Hindu country, since Buddhism was the dominant religion in India for many hundreds of years and Jainism was also had an equally long history and, in fact, a large continuing presence. Since there is so much discussion these days against Hindus converting to any other religion, it is perhaps worth remembering that arguably the greatest emperor of India was Asoka in the third century B.C. (the main rival to Asoka's claim would be from a Muslim called Akbar), and that Asoka did convert to Buddhism from what would have been the-then form of Hinduism. (3) I come now to the third reason against making the Indian identity dependent on the Hindu identity. Hindus are defined in 2 quite distinct ways. When the number of Hindus is counted, and it is established that the vast majority of Indians are in fact Hindu, this is not a counting of religious belief, but essentially of ethnic background. But when generalizations are made about, say, the divinity of Rama, or the sacred status of the Ramayana, beliefs are involved. By using the two approaches together, a numerical picture is constructed in which it is supposed that a vast majority of Indians believe in the divinity of Rama and the sacred status of the Ramayana. For a large proportion of the Hindus, however, that attribution would be just a mistake, since millions of people who are defined as Hindu in the first approach do not share these beliefs which is central to the second approach. Indeed, by making this attribution, the champions of Hindu politics undermine the rich tradition of heterodoxy that has been so central to the history of the Hindu culture. It is not often recognized that Sanskrit (including Pali and Prakrit) has a larger literature in the atheistic and agnostic tradition than exists in any other classical language. In the 14th century, Madhavacharya's remarkable book called Sarvadarshanasamgraha (`the collection of philosophies') which has one chapter each on the major schools of Hindu belief, devoted the entire first chapter to arguments in favour of the atheistic position. The route to Indian identity via a Hindu identity does not, I would argue, survive critical scrutiny for each of these 3 reasons. They point firmly towards a broader and inclusionary understanding of the Indian identity. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Mar 13 00:45:53 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 00:45:53 +0000 Subject: Devanagari/Ranjana (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) Message-ID: <161227068160.23782.556158992010648808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Yes, to many South Indians, some temple practices of Northern Hindus > appear highly Islamicate. Some North Indian practices have been influenced by Muslims, for example the use of vail. But which temple practices? > One of the main differences between Hindi vs. Urdu and the > creation of Devanagari vs. Islamic scripts is the Hindus' > efforts to "come out" of their Islamicate culture. Devanagari was not created in response to "urdu" script. The script in North India continuously evolved from Brahmi to Devanagari. The term "Devanagari" is often used for script forms from say 10-11th century, but the dividing lines are fairly artificial and have been drawn for convenience of naming only. Devanagari has been continuously in use. The Urdu script is derived from Farsi (in turn from Arabic), it adds several Indian sounds. The South Indian scripts too have evolved from Brahmi. Tamil script has retained the original Brahmi shapes better than all the Indian scripts. Yashwant Languages & Scripts of India http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/scripts.html ps: A page on Lanydza/Ranjana script of Tibet/Nepal has been added. Many charms from the region use this script for sacred mantras. It is very close to Devangari. It is still often used by the Newar. It represents one of the last surviving calligraphy traditions of North India. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 13 09:38:30 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 09:38:30 +0000 Subject: Buddhist Studies Position in Bangkok (fwd) Message-ID: <161227068171.23782.9965685594770751352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:34:28 +0000 From: Ulrich Pagel Ven. Adisai Pabasaro, Ph.D International Program in Buddhist Studies Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University?s International Program in Buddhist Studies in Wat Mahatat, Bangkok, Thailand, invites applications for either a male or a female instructor of Buddhist Studies specializing in Theravada Buddhism, but with a general understanding of the issues in Mahayana Studies would be preferred. Degree requirements: Master Degree in Buddhist Studies from a West European/North American/Australian/NZ university, with a bilingual fluency in English. Responsibilities: Teaching the contents of various academic papers taken from international Buddhist Studies, Religious Studies, or Consciousness journals, which MCU has in its library. As the student body is composed of Bhikkhus and lay people from various Asian countries, certain Teaching English as a Second Language (TESL) techniques will need to be employed Chief among these are speaking slowly, clear pronunciation and the avoidance of using idiomatic speech. The basic method for teaching academic papers would be putting them on an overhead projector and going through them paragraph by paragraph, explaining and discussing the author?s style, structure and methodologies used in arriving at her or his conclusions. An example of previous papers studied in this way have been Hoffman's paper on the role of Saddha, Keown's paper on Morality in the Visudhimagga, Gombrich?s paper on Why Six Former Buddhas?, Karunadasa's paper on Sassatavaada and Ucchedavaada, Bucknell?s paper on Dependent Origination. Aside from this direct style of teaching the lecturer would be free to develop her or his own ideas for lecture periods. Other duties would be in assisting various students to craft their academic essays and dissertations. Furthermore, assistance will be needed in modernizing MCU?s Buddhist Studies library. The appointment is for one year, beginning July, 2001, and may be renewable. The contract would be for lecturing 6 hours per week while providing 10 office hours per week. In exchange, MCU will also provide housing, health insurance, and research assistants /interpreters, for any research that the lecturer might wish to undertake for her or his own personal scholarship, as well as facilitating contacts within Thai Buddhist society. The Department will begin reviewing applications April 1st and will continue until the position is filled. Send a letter of application, curriculum vitae, graduate school transcript, and three references to: Ven. Adisai Pabasaro, Ph.D International Program in Buddhist Studies Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University Wat Mahatat Bangkok, 10200 Thailand Direct inquiries to: phraadisai at yahoo.com. From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Mar 13 07:54:42 2001 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 10:54:42 +0300 Subject: Herodotus/Mahabharata question In-Reply-To: <3AAD9539.1A532FF3@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227068168.23782.5842479884821751883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve, I think you would find useful the whole chapter on "Gold-Digging Ants" in Klaus Karttunen's book "India in Early Greek Literature", Helsinki 1989 (Studia Orientalia, ed. by the Finnish Oriental Society, 65), pp. 171-176, with reference to Mbh 2, 48.4. All the best Yaroslav. Tue, 13 Mar 101 06:36 +0300 MSK Steve Farmer wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Quick bibliographical question: > > There is a famous passage in Herodotus (esp. 3.102), raised in > discussing the tribute Indians paid to the Achaemenids, that > speaks of giant Indian ants that supposedly brought gold to the > surface when digging their tunnels. Could someone point me to the > Mahabharata passages that tell the same or a similar story? The > story is discussed, among other places, by B. Lauffer, 'Die Sage > von den goldgrabenden Ameisen,' T'oung Pao (1908) 9:429-452. > Unfortunately, I no longer have a copy of that article at hand. > > The story illustrates the kinds of story that could pass fairly > readily between India and Greece after the late 6th century BCE, > thanks apparently to the Persian conquests in that period in NW > India. I'm interested in such communications since I'm trying to > track down evidence of more important (if indirect) influences of > the Achaemenids on the canonization of Vedic sources in the > 6th-5th centuries. > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Tue, 13 Mar 101 10:45 +0300 MSK From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Mar 13 18:57:54 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 10:57:54 -0800 Subject: Herodotus/Mahabharata question Message-ID: <161227068184.23782.106059454054178741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Yaroslav. I've since found much data in the Indology archives from 1996 on the gold-digging "ants" (see "marmot"). http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html > Dear Steve, > I think you would find useful the whole chapter on "Gold-Digging Ants" > in Klaus Karttunen's book "India in Early Greek Literature", Helsinki 1989 (Studia > Orientalia, ed. by the Finnish Oriental Society, 65), pp. 171-176, with reference to > Mbh 2, 48.4. > All the best > Yaroslav. > > Tue, 13 Mar 101 06:36 +0300 MSK Steve Farmer wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > > > Quick bibliographical question: > > > > There is a famous passage in Herodotus (esp. 3.102), raised in > > discussing the tribute Indians paid to the Achaemenids, that > > speaks of giant Indian ants that supposedly brought gold to the > > surface when digging their tunnels. Could someone point me to the > > Mahabharata passages that tell the same or a similar story? The > > story is discussed, among other places, by B. Lauffer, 'Die Sage > > von den goldgrabenden Ameisen,' T'oung Pao (1908) 9:429-452. > > Unfortunately, I no longer have a copy of that article at hand. > > > > The story illustrates the kinds of story that could pass fairly > > readily between India and Greece after the late 6th century BCE, > > thanks apparently to the Persian conquests in that period in NW > > India. I'm interested in such communications since I'm trying to > > track down evidence of more important (if indirect) influences of > > the Achaemenids on the canonization of Vedic sources in the > > 6th-5th centuries. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 13 19:00:19 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 14:00:19 -0500 Subject: Nobel prize winner on Indian identity Message-ID: <161227068187.23782.3489557327467489816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That was a funny article by Prof Amartya Sen. I see that kind of stuff in daily news papers in India, nothing 'nobel' quality in it. >There are three distinct issues here: >(1) The first is not concerned with history at all....Even if it were >the >case that Indian history were primarily Hindu history, we still >would have >to determine how a pluralist.. The first point by Prof Amartya Sen was about "what India should be" under the current constitution. I fully respect the constitution, and it is a taboo to think about future. But unfortunately changes do happen, mostly for economic reasons and everything is a cycle (Prof Sen as an economist should know better than us). That is the reason why civilizations change hats from anarchy to dictatorship to communism to democracy to capitalism to. Afghanistan was a multi religious country and even today it has minorities, then why is it an Islamic country now? Was'nt India an Islamic state under Akbar? Was'nt Shivaji a Hindu raja as he called himself in the modern sense of the word Hindu at least limited to the area ruled by him? Why this denial? Can I say that India was not a colonized state before 1857 because there still some minor kings and queens who were holding out against the British? >(2) The second point is more historical. India has been a multi- >religious country for a very long time. ...Also pre-Muslim India was >not, >as it is sometimes claimed, mainly a Hindu country, since >Buddhism was the >dominant religion Whoever said "mainly a Hindu country" did not use the word "exclusively". Therefore that person was right! This is a non-issue. Does he Prof Sen imply that the people he terms as Hindus were in "minority" in pre-muslim India? >(3) I come now to the third reason ... Hindus are defined in 2 quite >distinct ways Which are those two? I suppose he means "ethnic" and "belief" as I understand from later wording. I like to see a hypothesis stated first and proven next. Do I have to cull out the hypothesis from a proof? >When the number of Hindus is counted, and it is established that the >vast >majority of Indians are in fact Hindu, this is not a counting of >religious >belief, but essentially of ethnic background. But when >generalizations are >made about, say, the divinity of Rama, or the >sacred status of the >Ramayana, beliefs are involved. Does he indirectly shows a disinterest in belief based method? If so, then Hindus are ethnic and one should not count religious belief. That means people living in India who think Rama as divine and also people who think Allah (peace be to the world) as divine are both Hindus(!).. Can I say so? Or does he mean that "believing in Rama's divinity" is not a worthy belief, but believing in divinity of other religions is only a worthy belief? >For a large proportion of the Hindus, however, that attribution would >be >just a mistake, since millions of people who are defined as Hindu >in the >first approach do not share these beliefs which is central to >the second >approach. Indeed, by making this attribution, the >champions of Hindu >politics undermine the rich tradition of hetero Hai (mythical or historical but not divine) Ram! So what is this "richness" of tradition "without" a belief about the greatness of an object of worship or adoration? Can I claim a "rich" Sankaran tradition by saying Sankara was just an ordinary advaitist on the street? Is a figure like "Rama" only great when he is mythical or historical but not divine? I am confused! Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 13 14:04:01 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 14:04:01 +0000 Subject: Electronic Mahabharata: supplementary passages released (fwd) Message-ID: <161227068174.23782.6602142367311799619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:40:43 +0000 (GMT) From: John Smith The project to create a complete, accurate electronic text of the Mahabharata has now reached completion, with the release of the supplementary passages (star passages and Appendix I passages). Like the main text, the supplementary material can be downloaded by visiting the following website: http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/john/mahabharata/statement.html John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk Sidgwick Avenue * Tel. 01223 335140 Cambridge CB3 9DA * Fax 01223 335110 From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 13 20:17:02 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 15:17:02 -0500 Subject: Nobel prize winner on Indian identity Message-ID: <161227068190.23782.1518330074095585310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A little more on the "research methodology" of the Prof Sen: >Also pre-Muslim India was >not, as it is sometimes claimed, mainly a >Hindu >country, since Buddhism was the dominant religion.. Prof Sen rejects the idea that pre-muslim India is "mainly a Hindu country" on the ground that Buddhism was the "dominant" religion. Now the phrase "mainly a Hindu country" is in terms of number of Hindus living at that time. It doesn't need a historian to prove that only a few Hindus converted to Buddhism. Buddhism was dominant because the "few" Buddhists who converted in those days were closer to kings and enjoyed advisory positions. Prof Sen got confused between quantity (number of Hindus) and political power. So using his logic, as a BJP coalition is in power today we have a Hindu India! Hurrah! Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 13 23:26:30 2001 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 15:26:30 -0800 Subject: Asoka's "conversion" (Re: Nobel prize winner on Indian identity) Message-ID: <161227068198.23782.10577636140330482810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Y. Malaiya wrote: >Religions "of-the-book" are today followed by a majority >of the humanity. Many Hindus too feel compelled to come up >with a definition of Hinduism that "fits" the formulas used >to define Islam or Christianity. But is it necessary? Islam was the rulers' faith for 6-7 centuries in the North. Naturally, a syncretism did develop. For example, granth-sahib mentions sahib 100s of times. Does Shri Dayanand Saraswati's success in Punjab and his redefininitions of meanings of the vedas reflect an urge in west India to show some books (veda, gita) paralleling kitabi religions with emphasis on koran, bible, etc.? Sincerely yours, Prasad _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Mar 13 21:36:00 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 16:36:00 -0500 Subject: RSG: conference announcement from SARAI Message-ID: <161227068193.23782.16435033830549569185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> =========== Rajasthan in the New Millennium - cfp Dear Rajasthanwalas Greetings from Jaipur!!! The Institute of Rajasthan Studies is organizing the IV International Conference: Rajasthan in the new millennium: History, Polity, Society, culture, Religion and economy. The conference will be held at Jaipur from 28 December - 29 December 2001. In case if the scholars are interested in panels we welcome the idea and request you to invite the panelists. The scholars are requested to send their abstract by May 30, 2001 to Dr. Varsha Joshi (joshivarsha at hotmail.com). More details of the conference will be send in our second call letter. Any suggestions regarding the sub-themes are most welcome. Yours sincerely Surjit Singh From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Mar 13 16:50:28 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 16:50:28 +0000 Subject: Asoka's "conversion" (Re: Nobel prize winner on Indian identity) Message-ID: <161227068178.23782.6846290451477172544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prasad Velusamy wrote: >Amartya Sen on Indian National Identity >From Indian Express March 4, 2001 Section II Pg. 8 >..... and that Asoka >did convert to Buddhism from what would have been the-then form of >Hinduism. What was the "the-then form of Hinduism"? What was this religion's name? Today it is often taken for granted that there were distinct religions "Buddhism" and "Hinduism", and people "converted" from one to other. The concept of mutual exclusiveness of "religions" originally appears to have come from overseas to India. Many text mention a number of faiths. I don't recall seeing anything before 7-8th century that would clearly separate Buddhism from what can be termed as "Hinduism". For example, the separate religious traditions identified in Manimekhalai are Shaiva, Brahmavadi, Vaishnava, Vedavadi, Ajivika, Jain, Samkhya, Vaisheshika, and materialist in addition to Buddhism. Religions "of-the-book" are today followed by a majority of the humanity. Many Hindus too feel compelled to come up with a definition of Hinduism that "fits" the formulas used to define Islam or Christianity. But is it necessary? When someone accepted say Vaishnavism, can we say he converted from the Vedic-Hindu faith? Ashoka's grandfather Chandragupta is prominently mentioned as having become a Jain monk in Jain tradition. Some believe that for a while Ashoka leaned towards Jainism. It has been common in India for kings to support multiple traditions at the same time. In fact King Kharvel (born in the family of Rajarshi Vasu) declares himself in his inscription (approx 2nd cent. BCE): ... sava pasaNDa-puujako, sava devaayatan-sa.nskaarako ... (worshipper of all sects, enhancer of all shrines) Yashwant From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 13 23:14:39 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 18:14:39 -0500 Subject: How long are the Indus and Brahmaputra (Was re: question) Message-ID: <161227068196.23782.2584919667878528839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar wrote: Of the two Himalayan rivers Indus and Brahmaputra ( both about 1800miles / 2900km ) which one is the longer and by how much? Allen Thrasher wrote: This question should be answerable by a consultation of an encyclopedia, a world almanac, or a visit to your university or public library. It is an easy one by that route ... I thought the mathematicians on the list would jump on this. The question of how long is a river is not that simple a question. Because the shape of a river is whats known as a "fractal" the length of the river depends on the scale at which the measurement is taken (in a much more fundamental way than just the accuracy of the measuring device). I.e. a river curves back and forth and as you go to finer and finer scales it still curves back and forth so the length keeps increasing. See http://life.csu.edu.au/complex/tutorials/tutorial3.html (For "How long is the coast of Britain?" substitute "How long is the Indus river?".) Or better yet see "The Fractal Geometry of Nature" by Mandelbrot . Best, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 13 18:17:00 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 18:17:00 +0000 Subject: Nobel prize winner on Indian identity Message-ID: <161227068181.23782.16667824922633436623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prasad Velusamy quotes Amartya Sen on Indian National Identity, From Indian Express March 4, 2001, Section II Pg. 8 1. I think the entire article is available online, at the archives of the newspaper, Indian Express (as also other newspapers). A link to the URL would usually suffice, rather than quoting large parts of somebody else's writings. Just basic netiquette, and one can be on the safe side of copyright issues. (The same goes for those who forward mails from people who are not members of this list.) 2. Re: Amartya Sen's statements, I have so far resisted a temptation to respond to it, in whatever manner. He does make pertinent points for what India should do in the future, and how much of its history needs to be forgotten. Apart from the cliche about repeating history, valid points can be raised against some of his other observations. e.g. a. From what "then-form" of Hinduism did Asoka "convert"? Yashwant Malaiya has already brought this up. b. Divine identity of Rama - I suggest that those who would plainly deny any kind of divinity to Rama and Krishna form a minority of the population that would call themselves Hindu (not only in India, but also in Nepal, Indonesia and elsewhere). As always, it is urban, educated India that assumes that it knows what is good for the vast majority of Indians, and imposes its own values and beliefs on the rest. The point can be easily decided, if someone were to take a simple headcount, provided it can be done without the Sens and the Shahi Imams and the Joshis and the Singhals of the world raising the prospect of resultant communal disturbances. c. The first chapter of Madhava's sarvadarzanasa.mgraha (on the cArvAka school) would argue not only against any kind of theism within Hinduism, but also equally well against any other kind of theistic belief. "Hinduism" can stand without a strict theism. Christianity and Islam cannot. The issue is very simple, as far as the cArvAkas are concerned. I doubt if the cause of harmony in a multicultural and multireligious society like contemporary India can be served by citing the cArvAkas who lived a thousand years ago. India's secularists seem to construct alternative fantasies about India's past, while criticizing some others for fantasizing about India's pre-Islamic history. The construction of social and national identity always needs some kind of myth. America has its myth of the "American dream". Never mind that the dream was built by decimating some and enslaving others. Western Europe has its myth of a glorious past of "science and rational thought". Never mind that the credit really belongs to Greece and Italy. The USSR tried a new myth of communist plenty, with disastrous results. It is a pipedream to think that one can systematically debunk all the old myths and still have some kind of stability or cohesiveness in one's society. The needs of India today demand some creative usage of its old myths and perhaps some construction of new ones. One can gauge how sucessful a myth is, by following its electoral fortunes. Still, I look forward to the day when people can discuss Indian history in a down-to-earth manner, without a lot of tendentious posturing. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 14 02:31:24 2001 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 18:31:24 -0800 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068207.23782.4177035962687679904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A friend forwarded this. Has Wendy O'Flaherty written a paper on the myths of Gita and "Bagger Vance"? Appreciations for giving the URL for the Phil. Inquirer piece. Thanks. ------------------ One of my students brought me a newspaper article from the Philadelphia Inquirer (11/19/00) entitled "Big-screen Caddy is a Hindu Hero in Disguise." It contends, among other things, that the current movie "The Legend of Bagger Vance" is based on the Bhagavad Gita. The character "Bagger Vance," whose name is a pun on "Bhagavan," is based on Krishna and the character Rannulph Junuh (played by Matt Damon) is Arjuna. The movie is set in the post-WWI American south and centers on an epic golf match. The article discusses the Gita at length and relates that Drexel University in Philadelphia recently sponsored an interdisciplinary course on the Gita. Wendy Doniger of the U. of Chicago was among the "high-profile" lecturers. Here is the newpaper's report of her lecture: "The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think," she said, in a lecture titled "The Complicity of God in the Destruction of the Human Race." Throughout the Mahabharata, the enormous epic of which the Gita is a small part, Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous and self-destructive behaviors such as war in order to relieve "mother Earth" of its burdensome human population and the many demons disguised as humans. "The Gita is a dishonest book; it justifies war," Doniger told the audience of 150, and later acknowledged: "I'm a pacifist. I don't believe in 'good' wars." Several in the sudience objected to her reading of the Gita, but she tendered no apologies and "begged" her listeners to plunge deeper into the Upanishads and other great literature of Hinduism. "Reading the Bhagavad Gita without reading the Mahabharata is like reading the Sermon on the Mount," she said, "without knowing about the Crucifixion." Personally, I find Doniger's reading of the Gita appalling, insulting and blatantly anti-Hindu. I'm saddened that Drexel Univ. chose her to speak on the Gita, apparently without rebuttal except from a few audience members. I'm also distressed that her views are reported without a counter-opinion in a major US newspaper. Imagine what Americans think of the Gita after reading this. What can be done about this injustice? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 14 00:09:41 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 19:09:41 -0500 Subject: length of river Brahmaputra etc Message-ID: <161227068204.23782.14393624788698583238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List: To answer the question concerning the length of the Brahmaputra vs. the Indus, there is this stat from the 1998 World Almanac - Brahmaputra - 1,770 miles Ganges - 1,560 miles Indus - 1,800 miles Lynken Ghose _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Mar 14 07:18:43 2001 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 01 23:18:43 -0800 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068214.23782.11481482435138299947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For an interview with the author of Bagger Vance, take a look at: http://www.harpercollins.com/baggervance/bagger_tee5.html Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley __________ At 06:31 PM 03/13/2001 -0800, you wrote: >A friend forwarded this. Has Wendy O'Flaherty written >a paper on the myths of Gita and "Bagger Vance"? > >Appreciations for giving the URL for the Phil. Inquirer piece. > >Thanks. > >------------------ > >One of my students brought me a newspaper article from the >Philadelphia Inquirer (11/19/00) entitled "Big-screen Caddy is a >Hindu Hero in Disguise." It contends, among other things, that the >current movie "The Legend of Bagger Vance" is based on the Bhagavad >Gita. The character "Bagger Vance," whose name is a pun >on "Bhagavan," is based on Krishna and the character Rannulph Junuh >(played by Matt Damon) is Arjuna. The movie is set in the post-WWI >American south and centers on an epic golf match. > >The article discusses the Gita at length and relates that Drexel >University in Philadelphia recently sponsored an interdisciplinary >course on the Gita. Wendy Doniger of the U. of Chicago was among >the "high-profile" lecturers. Here is the newpaper's report of her >lecture: > >"The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think," >she said, in a lecture titled "The Complicity of God in the >Destruction of the Human Race." >Throughout the Mahabharata, the enormous epic of which the Gita is a >small part, Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous >and self-destructive behaviors such as war in order to >relieve "mother Earth" of its burdensome human population and the >many demons disguised as humans. > >"The Gita is a dishonest book; it justifies war," Doniger told the >audience of 150, and later acknowledged: "I'm a pacifist. I don't >believe in 'good' wars." >Several in the sudience objected to her reading of the Gita, but she >tendered no apologies and "begged" her listeners to plunge deeper into >the Upanishads and other great literature of Hinduism. >"Reading the Bhagavad Gita without reading the Mahabharata is like >reading the Sermon on the Mount," she said, "without knowing about >the Crucifixion." > >Personally, I find Doniger's reading of the Gita appalling, insulting >and blatantly anti-Hindu. I'm saddened that Drexel Univ. chose her >to speak on the Gita, apparently without rebuttal except from a few >audience members. I'm also distressed that her views are reported >without a counter-opinion in a major US newspaper. Imagine what >Americans think of the Gita after reading this. What can be done >about this injustice? > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Wed Mar 14 05:07:41 2001 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 00:07:41 -0500 Subject: National Identity Message-ID: <161227068220.23782.3352215523997354965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends: I would like to enter the foray about India's national identity, whether composite or Hindu, with one small but pertinent observation. Even if we accpet the concept of the composite identity as Prof. Sen would have us do, there is no doubt that many Hindu ideas and beliefs are all pervasie. As an example the idea of a previous and a future birth, which is a Hindu doctrine, is accepted by Indian Christians and Indian Muslims, for whom it is non-doctrinal. Harsha Dehejia From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Mar 13 23:48:17 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 00:48:17 +0100 Subject: How long are the Indus and Brahmaputra (Was re: question) Message-ID: <161227068201.23782.15932228466532695450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That was a very thoughtful message. On a more flippant note: I thought the Indus kept changing its bed, thus creating continuous political and military upheaval where it is considered the political border... Mathematically, I think one way of doing it would be to decide on a common resolution (or fractal scale) for both rivers (assuming that rivers have comparable curving properties), then vectorize. I would venture a guess that there is probably a geometrical standard for this type of resolution, because otherwise relative geometry would be difficult. I promise I won't produce any more silly input on this issue... Yours, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Harry Spier wrote: > Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > > Of the two Himalayan rivers Indus and Brahmaputra ( both about 1800miles / > 2900km ) which one is the longer and by how much? > > Allen Thrasher wrote: > > This question should be answerable by a consultation of an > encyclopedia, a world almanac, or a visit to your university or public > library. It is an easy one by that route ... > > I thought the mathematicians on the list would jump on this. The question > of how long is a river is not that simple a question. Because the shape of > a river is whats known as a "fractal" the length of the river depends on the > scale at which the measurement is taken (in a much more fundamental way than > just the accuracy of the measuring device). I.e. a river curves back and > forth and as you go to finer and finer scales it still curves back and forth > so the length keeps increasing. > > See http://life.csu.edu.au/complex/tutorials/tutorial3.html > (For "How long is the coast of Britain?" substitute "How long is the Indus > river?".) > > Or better yet see "The Fractal Geometry of Nature" by Mandelbrot . > > Best, > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 14 04:20:39 2001 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 05:20:39 +0100 Subject: Lankaavataara-suutra Message-ID: <161227068212.23782.2161476028316658550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: > 2] Is the date of the Sanskrit version of the suutra known or are there > any conjrctures on it? You can refer to Lambert Schmithausen's article "A note on Vasubandhu and the Lankaavataarasuutra" in Asiatische Studien 46.1 (1992). He argues that the Suutra is later than Vasubandhu's Tri.m?sikaa. > And in the Chapter on dhaara.nii, the version of > Bodhiruci has a mention of ".daaka and .daakinii" (T. XVI 671 viii 565a6) > also (I don't know if it is there in the Sanskrit version) It is also in the Sanskrit Version (Nanjio's edition 262, 13 ). With kind regards, Martin Delhey University of Hamburg _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 14 15:21:08 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 07:21:08 -0800 Subject: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture Message-ID: <161227068233.23782.13677911529100853297.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Yashwant wrote >> One of the main differences between Hindi vs. Urdu and the >> creation of Devanagari vs. Islamic scripts is the Hindus' >> efforts to "come out" of their Islamicate culture. >Devanagari was not created in response to "urdu" script. The >script in North India continuously evolved from Brahmi to >Devanagari. The term "Devanagari" is often used for script >forms from say 10-11th century, but the dividing lines >are fairly artificial and have been drawn for convenience of >naming only. Devanagari has been continuously in use. >The Urdu script is derived from Farsi (in turn from Arabic), >it adds several Indian sounds. I understand that Devanagari script was not created as a response to Urdu script, and it evolved from Ashokan Brahmi script. The question is whether the Moghul rulers used Urdu or Devanagari script in their administration. Pardon my ignorance. If devanagari was widely used say in 1600, 1700, 1800 & 1900 AD, why then was a big political movement to enforce Devanagari? Under the nominal headship of Kashi Maharaj, the Devanagari Pracharini Sabha in 19th century and its lobbying efforts and British support? Also then, why scholars refer to as "one language, two scripts"? The two scripts represent more of religious affliations than anything else. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Mar 14 12:47:15 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 07:47:15 -0500 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: <01C0AC79.E09734C0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068228.23782.3760466388890172384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Why should we care about what Americans think about the Gita? Is the intrinsic value or the Gita dependent on this? There are many Americans today who think highly of what the Gita has to say, many others who feel otherwise, and the vast majority don't even know about the work. 2. Is allowing a scholar to express her views (however unacceptable and distasteful to us it may be) injustice? Many people, scholars and others, Americans, Christians, non-Christians, speak out against Christianity too. L.M.Fosse wrote: As of now this is true of India too, and of a few other countries in the world. Whether we like it or not, this is a fact. There are forces in the world (they exist within America too) which would like to subvert this system. Pathetic is the plight of (thinking) people who have to live in places where your tongue will be cut off (or its equivalent) when you speak against what the people in power believe to be the TRUTH. 3. By the way, there have been Hindu thinkers who have criticized the Gita too. Personally, I did not like what Doniger wrote, and I published a strongly worded rebuttal to her. Best regards, VVRaman March 14, 2001 From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 14 16:07:49 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 08:07:49 -0800 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068236.23782.2446595572288046538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Raman wrote: >3. By the way, there have been Hindu thinkers who have criticized the Gita too. >Personally, I did not like what Doniger wrote, and I published a strongly >worded rebuttal to her. Is this "strongly worded rebuttal" available in this list or in the cyberspace? Yes, highly regarded Sanskritists from India also tell their observations about Gita. Experts have simialr views as those of eminent Indologists like Wendy Doniger. Regards, SM <<< Indira Vishvanathan Peterson, Prof. of Sanskrit, The Norton Anthology, World Masterpieces, p. 958, 1995: "There is reason to believe that the Gita, originally an independent philosophical dialogue similar to earlier and contemporary texts such as the Upanishads and the Buddhist scriptures, was deliberately placed in the popular MBh. epic.., This new configuration of elements fortified a view that was at once revolutionary for its time (ca. first century AD) and designed to preserve the Hindu social hierarchy. By the end of the first century BC, the Buddhist and Jain religions had gained a considerable following among the Indian masses and among kings and merchants as well. Focusing on the problem of karma - the belief that all actions involve inevitable consequences that must be suffered thru' many lives- Buddhism in particular offered people from all walks of life a religious path on which ethical action could be combined with contemplative spiritual practices, eventually leading to liberation from the burden of karma.In the Hindu social order, on the other hand, rigid and hierarchical correlations between birth and occupation locked people into existential situations that held no such prospect of ultimate freedom. .. The Gita appears to have been the response of brahman thinkers who stood to lose the most from the potential disintegration of the Hindu social system. Thru' Krishna's teachings, the anonymous author of the Gita articulates a new doctrine that will justify the hierarchies of class and social duty (he uses the word lokasaMgraha, social solidarity) at the same time that it offers universal access to the ultimate goal of emancipation. .. The text synthesizes the contemplative vision of the Buddhists and the sages of the Upanishads..." >>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Wed Mar 14 13:30:46 2001 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 08:30:46 -0500 Subject: Lankaavataara-suutra In-Reply-To: <015e01c0ac3e$8d0f16a0$9f13e195@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <161227068231.23782.14934641366826164485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't have the article with me now, but Christian Lindtner wrote an article in Asiatische Studien ('97? '98?) trying to prove that Nagarjuna quotes from the Lankavatara. I was skeptical, but he makes an interesting argument. Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion 114C Miner Hall Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 ph# (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Martin > Delhey > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:21 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Lankaavataara-suutra > > > Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: > > > 2] Is the date of the Sanskrit version of the suutra known or are there > > any conjrctures on it? > > > You can refer to Lambert Schmithausen's article "A note on Vasubandhu and > the Lankaavataarasuutra" in Asiatische Studien 46.1 (1992). He argues that > the Suutra is later than Vasubandhu's Tri.m?sikaa. > > > > And in the Chapter on dhaara.nii, the version of > > Bodhiruci has a mention of ".daaka and .daakinii" (T. XVI 671 > viii 565a6) > > also (I don't know if it is there in the Sanskrit version) > > > It is also in the Sanskrit Version (Nanjio's edition 262, 13 ). > > > With kind regards, > Martin Delhey > University of Hamburg > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP Wed Mar 14 00:21:50 2001 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 09:21:50 +0900 Subject: Lankaavataara-suutra Message-ID: <161227068210.23782.17743469840370297578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I would like to ask some questions on the Lanka-avataara-suutra: I know that this suutra has been translated (at least) three times in Chinese: 1. by Gu.nabhadra (who came from the Central India), around the middle of the 5th century; 2. by Bodhiruci (who came also from the Central India), in the first half of the 6th century; 3. by 'Sik.saananda (who came from Khotan), at the beginning of the 8th century. So, here are my questions: 1] Are there any other (lost) Chinese translations (date?, translator?)? 2] Is the date of the Sanskrit version of the suutra known or are there any conjrctures on it? 3] Are the approximative date and the place of the original text known? or are there any conjectures on these points? Here is the background of my questions: My interest in this text is limited to a little point: it it related to the history of .daakinii. There is a mention of ".daaka and .daakinii" in the sanskrit version of this suutra, in the Chapter on the meat-eating; in the Chinese versions by Bodhiruci and "Sik.saananda, we read "raak.sasa and raak.sasii", instead of ".daaka and .daakinii" (T. XVI 671 viii 563a24-25; T. XVI 672 vi 624a3-4; D. T. Suzuki, The Lankaavataara suutra, London, 1932 ; reprint 1968, p.216), and this seems to be one of the oldest mention of this category of beings. And in the Chapter on dhaara.nii, the version of Bodhiruci has a mention of ".daaka and .daakinii" (T. XVI 671 viii 565a6) also (I don't know if it is there in the Sanskrit version) [this is perhaps the earliest mention of these words in the Chinese Buddhist literature]. Thank you in advance for any insight on these points. Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Mar 14 10:05:30 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 10:05:30 +0000 Subject: Job posting for Indology (fwd) Message-ID: <161227068217.23782.4548505371231272903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:39:19 -0500 From: Christopher Minkowski LECTURER IN BENGALI, CORNELL UNIVERSITY The Department of Asian Studies invites applications for a full-time Lecturer position in Bengali language beginning August, 2001. Initial contract for one-year probationary period, followed by three-year renewable contract. Renewal is based on merit and contingent on the continued availability of program funding. Minimum qualifications: Bachelor's degree; near-native proficiency in Bengali; explicit understanding of the properties of Bengali as well as basic knowledge of the linguistic and cultural background of Bengali; familiarity with language-teaching methodologies, including technology-related pedagogy, and ability to work autonomously as an instructor at all levels of the language. Letters of application, CV and three letters of recommendation to Chair, Bengali Committee, Department of Asian Studies, 388 Rockefeller Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853. Contact: Chris Capalongo: (ph) 607-255-9099; (email) cmc40 at cornell.edu. Applications received by April 4 will be ensured full consideration; consideration of applications will continue until position is filled. Cornell is an Affirmative Action / Equal Opportunity Employer. From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Wed Mar 14 15:58:20 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 10:58:20 -0500 Subject: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture Message-ID: <161227068238.23782.6783136990209205114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Maduresan wrote: >I understand that Devanagari script was not created as a response to >Urdu script, and it evolved from Ashokan Brahmi script. The question >is whether the Moghul rulers used Urdu or Devanagari script in their >administration. Pardon my ignorance. If devanagari was widely used >say in 1600, 1700, 1800 & 1900 AD, why then was a big political >movement to enforce Devanagari? Under the nominal headship of Kashi >Maharaj, the Devanagari Pracharini Sabha in 19th century and its >lobbying efforts and British support? Also then, why scholars refer >to as "one language, two scripts"? The two scripts represent more of >religious affliations than anything else. I don't have references on hand right now, but British policy, I believe, replaced Urdu in the Arabic script with Hindi in the Nagari script around 1881-1882 in Bihar. That seems to indicate that wide use of Devanagari (as distinct from use of Devanagari for religious purposes) significantly postdates the decline of Islamic political power in northern India. Regards, Rohan. From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Wed Mar 14 16:17:08 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 11:17:08 -0500 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: <01K16GWJCJ1SXUN2ZD@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: <161227068241.23782.17763059630459805074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "V.V. Raman" has written as follows: >L.M.Fosse wrote: right to discuss and criticize other people's religion.> >As of now this is true of India too, and of a few other countries in the world. I disagree with his statement. The censorship in India is more ubiquitous than anywhere else. Salman Rushdie was banned in India before Iran. To this day it is impossible to write or produce any film without running the risk of official censorship be the TRUTH. >3. By the way, there have been Hindu thinkers who have criticized the Gita too. >Personally, I did not like what Doniger wrote, and I published a strongly >worded rebuttal to her. I for one would not disagree much from her views. Gita is a mythical book more appealing to Kitabi western religions who cannot accept that there may be a religion that does not derive its existence on one or more book. --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Mar 14 10:26:32 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 11:26:32 +0100 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068223.23782.7483374717625994112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prasad Velusamy [SMTP:prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 14. mars 2001 03:31: > Personally, I find Doniger's reading of the Gita appalling, insulting > and blatantly anti-Hindu. I'm saddened that Drexel Univ. chose her > to speak on the Gita, apparently without rebuttal except from a few > audience members. I'm also distressed that her views are reported > without a counter-opinion in a major US newspaper. Imagine what > Americans think of the Gita after reading this. What can be done > about this injustice? America is a free society, and consequently people have the right to discuss and criticize other people's religion. ("Right of free speech"). On the other hand, as a Hindu disagreeing strongly with Doniger, YOU (or anybody sharing your opinions) have the right to speak out against her, or to write and publish a rebuttal, showing why you think she is wrong and criticizing her views on Hinduism (you would of course have to find a publisher or newspaper willing to print your rebuttal). Drexel university was not required to have a "counterspeaker". There are countless venues for debate and statements in a free society, from the simple soap-box to the university hall or newspaper front page. Any theme such as Doniger's can be reiterated and redebated anywhere in society. Your challenge is to do this in such a manner that you convince. And incidentally: I rather like the Gita, and prefer it to the upanishads. So Doniger and I would not see eye to eye on this. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Mar 14 16:27:42 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 11:27:42 -0500 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: <20010314160749.78980.qmail@web13010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068243.23782.1190826360055248396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathean Madhuresan asked: (Response to Prof. Wendy Doniger: by Prof. V. V. Raman) Thinkers and scholars, historians and religious people from many traditions and cultures have reflected and commented upon the Bhagavad Gita which is one of most influential works in world literature. The work has not only mythical and metaphysical dimensions, but also profound esoteric, ethical, and philosophical components. The Gita is presented in the form of a dialogue between the intelligent hero Arjuna and Krishna, a personage who is regarded in the Hindu tradition as the embodiment of spiritual wisdom. The questions explored range from the doctrinal foundations of a major religious tradition to subtle metaphysics about the ultimate nature of Reality. Superficially, the Gita urges the hesitant Arjuna to take up arms against a sea of evil, and destroy the enemies. It is this aspect of the work that prompted Professor Wendy Doniger to declare recently in a lecture that "The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think. The Complicity of God in the Destruction of the Human Race." This is a valid, if superficial perspective to take, and may be expected from one who is ignorant of metaphysical subtleties, mythical symbolism, and Hindu culture. But when it comes from a highly regarded scholar of Indian studies associated with a prestigious university, one is somewhat disappointed, not to say shocked. Surely, Wendy Doniger knows better than to make such a simplistic statement to an audience which may not be well acquainted with the complexities of the culture she is commenting upon. It would be perfectly legitimate to present this (not highly original) critique of Krishna in a scholarly symposium, or at least preface it by saying that hers is a non-traditional approach to a work that has been generally praised by many perceptive thinkers. As if to underscore her proclivity for provocative proclamations, she went on to declare that "The Gita is a dishonest book," which, on any account is not a very intelligent, not to say a plain stupid, thing to say about a book that has enjoyed a pedestal of sanctity in the hearts and minds of millions of people over many generations. Her justification for the judgment is even more naove: "It justifies war: I'm a pacifist. I don't believe in 'good' wars." If all she got out of the Gita was that the book justifies wars, then sadly, even with all her expertise in archaic Sanskrit and in mythology, she seems to be in dire need of a little basic education on the nature and content of religious texts. I am sure Ms Doniger is aware of Moses sending spies into Canaan, of Gibeah's trickery in war, of Elisha praying to God to blind his enemies, etc. which are reported in the Old Testament. From this to declare to a not very well informed audience that the Old Testament is a dishonest book is not only silly, if not sacrilege, but is irresponsible too; and certainly unbecoming of a reputed scholar. But then, given Ms Doniger's obsessive interpretations of Indian myths, we may be grateful she did not detect in the Gita any homophilic relationship between Krishna and Arjuna. Bookish academics need to remember that when it comes to analyzing works regarded as sacred by vast numbers of people, sound scholarship is like the firmness of bones, while appreciation and sensitivity are like flesh and blood. Without the latter, the former is merely an ugly skeleton: morbid and monstrous, lifeless and lamentable. With the latter, scholarship becomes robust and living. Ignoring this fact has led to many otherwise meaningful commentaries. [This is only part of my posting. I don't wish to put out the entire response here. If anyone wishes, I will be happy send the remaining part in a personal e-mail if you write to me.] Best regards, VVRaman From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 14 17:04:36 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 12:04:36 -0500 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068246.23782.12871320741141923101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The situation with gIta is pretty complicated. 1. As Wendy said gIta is part of mahAbhArata without which it is out of context. Over the last many centuries Hindus themselves misunderstood many aspects of this great book. 2. More misunderstandings are caused by mixup of contexts between different chapters which present apparently contradictory methods. I can give details if any one is interested. 3. Misunderstandings are the problem of readers and commentators, not the book itself. 4. As for censorship, government of any society has its reason to limit social unrest. Just because Rushdie and some book distributors want to make a quick buck, India doesn't have to suffer damage to life and property. 5. I agree with Prof Fosse that America is a free society, but here is a sample of the audience she is probably targeting: http://www.allexperts.com/Board.asp?Category=946 That was my favorite joint. As scholars we think everybody in the society reads our works and knows everything we do. It is far from true. When America protests against teaching creation, it is because America wants to bring up their younger generation as free citizens, not as prejudiced robots. There is no need to teach reverence for gIta, but inconsistent teaching affects students. As for violence, has any US president apologized sitting on his knees at Hiroshima? I know Wendy Doniger will say Oppenhiemer is a gIta enthusiast. Was gIta an official scripture of US army during world war II? If Iraq invades Kuwait next time, is Wendy going to garage her SUV because no more oil will flow? It is a fashion these days to talk of peace, and point to conflicts elsewhere for stock market performance, but some gutsy economists at Princeton Economics Institute had predicted conflicts coming up in 2003 (they also predicted 1846 on Nasdaq-100 a year ago in Jan 2000!). Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Wed Mar 14 19:26:37 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 14:26:37 -0500 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068254.23782.11395030387400162801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since this my second post of the day therefore I will not be able to respond any more on this issue but here is my take. Bhadraiah Mallampalli has written as follows without referring to my earlier message: >4. As for censorship, government of any society has its reason to limit >social unrest. Just because Rushdie and some book distributors want to make >a quick buck, India doesn't have to suffer damage to life and property. You cannot have a cake and eat it too. My point was to state that India is one of the most repressive and reprehensible state as far as freedom of speech is concerned and to claim otherwise and try to compare with US is hypocritical at best. Record of India is no better than that of Iran or Afghanistan in this matter. Any writer has a right to make money as well as to freedom of speech. It is people who damage property should be censored and controlled and not the artists and writers. Maintenance of law of order has been the standard excuse of all dictators including Hitler, Mussolini and Indira Gandhi. >That was my favorite joint. As scholars we think everybody in the society >reads our works and knows everything we do. It is far from true. No rational scholar has that illusion and if you had one better get back to real life. >As for violence, has any US president apologized sitting on his knees at >Hiroshima? I know Wendy Doniger will say Oppenhiemer is a gIta enthusiast. That is where I disagree with Wendy since I am not a pacifist utopian like her. Whether Oppenhiemer or some one else is gita enthusiast has to relevance to the value of gita itself to any scholar. No one has to apologize for any past acts of violence since the evolution of human race is based on the survival of species which is mostly a result of violence and control of territories. No one remembers the vanquished in the war howsoever just he/sahe may have been. Victors always write history and demonize the losers. Even Ramayan was written to demonize Ravan who was in fact more justified to fight against the invading forces of Ram. A unbiased study of Ramayan shows Ravan to have been a person of much higher moral values than Ram who killed a Sudra and banished his flawless wife but we do not give up worshiping Ram and building temples for him whether in Ayodhya or other cities. Has Ram or worshippers of Ram ever apologized to Ravan or his descendants? Of course this question is only rhetorical since Ram and Ravan both are fictional characters but my point is that an outdated apology does not serve any purpose and cannot undo the past injustices. As I had said in my earlier post, skepticism is the hallmark of Hinduism as I see it since it does not have any established code book or unchallengeable authority. Vedas were known as Shruti because if they were to be written down they would become static and it is only the western Scholars who resorted to writing down Vedas and in process destroyed the uniqueness of Hinduism. They distorted the character of Gita too by advertising it as a book attributed to god like the books of Kitabi religions. I see no reason to get upset if some one challenges the writings in Gita or Vedas or Ramayan or whatever else. --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Spark's Sixth Rule for Managers: If a subordinate asks you a pertinent question, look at him as if he had lost his senses. When he looks down, paraphrase the question back at him. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 14 22:28:24 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 14:28:24 -0800 Subject: Devanagari (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068264.23782.1982218579108056666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > The official languages used by the British were > earlier Farsi and > Urdu. ... > However in much of north India, for non-government > purposes, people generally used > Devanagari. The term "non-government purposes" seems to need qualification. True most people had their Gita and prayer "pothi"'s in Devanagari, but for all other purposes they seemed to use the Perso-Arabic aka Urdu script. For example, I have not seen a single Punjabi trader using 'Nagari even for business purposes. As late as 1970, if you bought 2 seers of mustard oil from a Punjabi Lala in Delhi or western UP, like as not he'd write down your order as 2 superscript where is the Urdu commercial code for "sarson" or mustard and the Urdu letter the marker for the "tel" or oil. But they used Roman numerals! But Rohan's right about Bihar. But when Bihar in 1881, decided in favor of Hindi in Devanagari script over Urdu in Persian script, it was seen primarily as a manifestation of the Hindu Muslim communal conflict. (cf Paul R Brass, Language, Religion and Politics in North India, CUP) I do not have the book to hand so can't give page numbers. In fact, this can be seen more clearly in the alacrity with which the Punjabi Hindus took up the demand for Devanagari. In fact this was the political baptism for Lala Lajpat Rai (incidentally the patron saint of my alma mater) who wrote in Urdu all his life. In 1882, he joined the Arya Samaj and spearheaded the demand for Hindi in Devanagari script. He could neither read nor write Devanagari at that time. There is some evidence that he never learnt it. Soon in Punjab, one could see three language-script-religion complexes viz., Urdu-Persian-Muslim, Hindi-Devanagari-Hindu and the Punjabi-Gurmukhi-Sikh. In fact it is well known that right from the census of 1911 onwards, the Hindus of Punjab started returning their mother tongue as Hindi as opposed to the Census Official's category called Hindustani. In fact, it would appear that by 1941, the information pertaining to mother tongue was considered so unreliable that it was not collected at all by the Census people. (Brass) In this context, the quote from McEldowney seems not really relevant since language itself was not the issue. But the remark by S Madhuresan does seem to be. > One of the main differences between Hindi vs. Urdu > and the creation of Devanagari vs. Islamic scripts > is the Hindus' efforts to "come out" of their > Islamicate culture. As an aside, is not the current trend towards an inclusive Hinduism also a manifestation of the same trend i.e., of a Hindu effort to come out of an Islamicate (or a composite Hindu-Muslim culture, if you will) culture? One index of this is temple building with a renewed vigor. Some of these temples are billed as " Nagara style temples, first time in the last 1000 years". What is meant of course is first time since Mahmud of Ghori. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jage at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 14 20:03:51 2001 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 15:03:51 -0500 Subject: Book about 'Bagger Vance' Message-ID: <161227068259.23782.2118196098532376178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, March 14, 2001 I have not seen it but the following book sounds relevant: Rosen, Steven. Gita on the green : the mystical tradition behind Bagger Vance. New York : Continuum, 2000. 176 p. ISBN: 0826413013. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 14 20:21:36 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 15:21:36 -0500 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068261.23782.9501054067832210858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >India is one of the most repressive and reprehensible state as far >as >freedom of speech is concerned and to claim otherwise and try to >compare >with US is hypocritical at best. Record of India is no >better than that >of Iran or Afghanistan in this matter. This can't be generalized because every ruling party was different. Mostly when Congress party rules, you won't see any exciting news. When others rule there is lot of news, either because they are in a hurry to show some results, or they respect freedom of speech. Some censorship is needed to protect innocent people. How about listening to a Viromax ad driving with family? Sorry if this offends some one. While Rushdie's book was censored, publishing of its most notorious contents in national news papers was "NOT" censored and we read every word of it. A discerning reader was never denied what he wants to read. It is upto you if you compare to Pakistan or Afghanistan. Journalism picked up well in Indian youth as an adventurous career after Gurumurthy's success. India may have a long way to go, but stereotypic attitude and remarks of US and BBC reporters don't measure up. >Victors always write history and demonize the losers. That is precisely what I am saying. I don't want anybody to apologize for past wrongs. But Prof Wendy Doniger seems to think that the present peace and tranquility in developed world has just "happened" some how. On the contrary it happened because of past victories and present deterrence. As a activist for pacifism she has a right to say what she wants to say, and pacifists even opposed world wars, but giving a one-sided presentation to "students" is not a professional attitude. A professor has to give a complete view, and state one's own views at the end of the class. It is a role conflict (confusion about svadharma) between being an activist and a professor. Re: creation teaching in school: Apologies if anybody took offence. My opinion is that such stories may not mean what they appear to convey. It has to be studied by scholars, but told to children as a mythology. I don't think semetic religions are kitabi, but they were made so. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Wed Mar 14 22:36:47 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 16:36:47 -0600 Subject: Looking for???? Message-ID: <161227068281.23782.983055954222002736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks very much: There is somebodym that he can send me the s?nscrit tex in romanic letter of follow quotes: Uttara-Gita bhasya of Gaudapada, text ii.46 and Mathara-vritti Karika 2 and 51???? You can send me like this: sarva dharma etc-- Thanks very much. It is for my research, ***************************************** Horacio Fco. Arganis JU?rez U A de C. From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Mar 14 17:06:44 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 17:06:44 +0000 Subject: Devanagari (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) Message-ID: <161227068248.23782.12458979502955645874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU wrote: >I don't have references on hand right now, but British policy, I >believe, replaced Urdu in the Arabic script with Hindi in the Nagari >script around 1881-1882 in Bihar. That seems to indicate that wide >use of Devanagari (as distinct from use of Devanagari for religious >purposes) significantly postdates the decline of Islamic political >power in northern India. The official languages used by the British were earlier Farsi and Urdu. Ordinary Hindus generally used Devanagari for religious, literary and business purposes. Some Hindus had started using Urdu script as the primary one, I have heard that some residents of Delhi wrote the mantras in Urdu script. However in much of north India, for non-government purposes, people generally used Devanagari. Philip McEldowney in "Colonial Administration and Social Developments in Middle India: The Central Provinces, 1986-1921" writes ===== The entire issue of official languages for the Central Provinces was not finally decided until 1871, after an Indian group from Jabalpur petitioned the government in favor of Hindi, instead of Urdu. The Chief Commissioner agreed that the official language should be "the language of the people." Both the petitioners and the Chief Commissioner presented statistics which showed that Hindi was definitely the popular language of the northern province. A few British officials opposed Hindi, describing it as an "inferior tongue." But the Chief Commissioner concluded that "two great errors" had been made by previous administrations. First, mere official convenience was consulted, instead of keeping to the broad principle that we should recognize but two official languages--the language of the governing nation (English) and the language of the people; and, second, we did not apprehend the strong affection felt for the Hindi language by the mass, and believed erroneously that by perservering in the use of Urdu we could naturalize it. It is my view that not even in the North-West Provinces has Urdu taken such a hold on the people that it will very long be able to maintain its place as the official language. (50)" The Chief Commissioner's forecast proved correct, though the decision produced much stronger controversy there than in the Central Provinces. ===== Incidentally the first Hindi weekly in Devanagari "Udanta Martanda" was started in 1826 from Calcutta. The first daily "Samachar Sudhavarshan" was started in 1854. In 1873 Mahendra Bhattacharya's "Padarth-vigyan" (Chemistry) text appeared in Hindi. Yashwant From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Mar 14 11:37:20 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 17:07:20 +0530 Subject: gita Message-ID: <161227068226.23782.6042733642427626805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Surely,Gita's place in the history of world civilization cannot depend on testimonial from an individual, university, media,or a country.It would be ironical if those who adhere to Gita's philosophy take umbrage at its being variously interpreted.After all, in the pre-war days Krishna with his philosophy that would go into Gita happily coexisted with Arjuna who thought otherwise . rajesh kochhar From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Mar 14 17:31:26 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 01 17:31:26 +0000 Subject: Devanagari (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) Message-ID: <161227068251.23782.7387270019035030439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry, the title of Philip McEldowney's thesis should have been "Colonial Administration and Social Developments in Middle India: The Central Provinces, 1886-1921" I had the period as 1986-1921. Also I should mention that Central Provinces has a southern section (Nagpur region) where Marathi was common. It is now part of Maharashtra. I assume that in the quote "northern province" refers to northern part of "Central Provinces", now part of MP/Chhatisgarh states. Yashwant From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Mar 15 04:31:00 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 04:31:00 +0000 Subject: Devanagari (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) Message-ID: <161227068268.23782.17021485866031167657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Lakshmi Srinivas's statement that there is some evidence that Lala Lajpat Rai never learned Devanagari, here is a notice of the book Lala Lajpat Rai wrote while in prison around 1921-22. It is from the "75 years ago" section of the Tribune. Since it is short, I'm reproducing it below. The question then is what does "in Hindi" and "written by Lala Lajpat Rai" actually mean ? E.g., did someone transcribe the work to Devanagari ? -Arun Gupta http://www.tribuneindia.com/98oct11/edit.htm#4 75 YEARS AGO Lala Lajpat Rai?s latest publication HISTORY of Ancient India in Hindi. Price Rs 2-4, cloth-bound Rs 2-12. The Tribune reviewer writes: It is a deplorable fact that our young men are quite ignorant of their past history. A nation, which feels no interest or delight in the glories of its past, cannot be expected to have a bright future. Lala Lajpat Rai, in his preface, refers to the apathy of our young men, and it is with a view to providing useful and necessary information regarding that period of Indian history that the book has been written. Lalaji has taken great pains to compile this book. He says that he has gone through almost all books available on the subject. The book has a further charm of its own on account of its being written within the precincts of the jail. There are four illustrations and three maps in the book. The photo of the author is given in the beginning. There are four very useful appendices attached to the book. They are full of reliable and important information. We have great pleasure in recommending the book to our young men and also to our nationalist workers because we feel that every Indian must know as to what his ancestors have done in the past to enrich literature, philosophy and other branches of the world?s knowledge. The work is very useful for women and children, affords an interesting as well as an easy reading and can be introduced as a text book in boys? and girls? schools. We trust that Lalaji?s desire in this direction will be adequately appreciated. Can be had from Raj Pal, Manager, Saraswati Ashram, Lahore. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 15 14:13:53 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 06:13:53 -0800 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: <01K16OKM0Z3SXPUQ34@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> Message-ID: <161227068278.23782.11407948739247881392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Raman, Are you a professor of Sanskrit? The response sounds more like writings from Church or Mosque. Philology, Study of Myth involve lifetime training and working at it. Indira and Wendy have done that. Sri. Bhadriah whose interpretations of prANA, upanishads are pretty novel to read Science into them writes: "I understand it is not possible to discuss everything in a presentation, but a more relaxed reflection on the topic should have made her realize the omission. The message of gIta was kriSNa's pacifism was timely and arjuna's pacifism is not." I'm sure when Doniger or Indira Peterson write about Gita, they have done the reflections for years as academic professionals of Sanskrit texts. Doniger isn't "ignorant". Regards, SM --- "V.V. Raman" wrote: > (Response to Prof. Wendy Doniger: by Prof. V. V. Raman) > > This is a valid, if superficial perspective to take, and may be > expected from one who is ignorant of metaphysical subtleties, mythical > symbolism, and Hindu culture. But when it comes from a highly regarded > scholar > of Indian studies associated with a prestigious university, one is somewhat > disappointed, not to say shocked. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 15 11:34:10 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 06:34:10 -0500 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068273.23782.16957820435341526389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Then it's perfectly proper (and sometimes desirable) to be provocative. Thank you Prof Valerie Roebuck, I do that myself many times to invite more discussion.. a typical interview technique to steer the the interviewer towards one's stronghold. kriSna played a dual role in mahAbhArata as a strategist and pacifist. On one hand he kept preparing pANDavAs for the battle, but when he was sent as an ambassador he said even five villages are ok for them. His role as a pacifist was improperly ignored. I understand it is not possible to discuss everything in a presentation, but a more relaxed reflection on the topic should have made her realize the omission. The message of gIta was kriSNa's pacifism was timely and arjuna's pacifism is not. Best regads Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 15 14:52:16 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 06:52:16 -0800 Subject: Scripts (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) In-Reply-To: <20010314222824.3176.qmail@web124.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227068284.23782.16912076041589887773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a request for info from the venerable list. 1. Is Gurmukhi script given any patronage by Punjabis? How are the administrative affairs conducted in print? Gurmukhi? 2. Does Marathi have a historic script? Or, is it the same as Devanagari? If there was a switch, when? 3. Is Maithili still used by Bihar pundits? 4. What about Kashmir? Is it made into Devanagari script now? Urdu or Sarada? Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Mar 15 08:38:08 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 08:38:08 +0000 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068270.23782.7779075368412944893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, if it's an introduction aimed at students: no, if it's a public lecture aimed at an audience with previous knowledge of the subject. Then it's perfectly proper (and sometimes desirable) to be provocative. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Bhadraiah Mallampalli writes: >A professor has to give a >complete view, and state one's own views at the end of the class. It is a >role conflict (confusion about svadharma) between being an activist and a >professor. From aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET Thu Mar 15 13:42:48 2001 From: aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET (Aditya, the Cheerful HIndu Skeptic) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 08:42:48 -0500 Subject: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068275.23782.605178791570220536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli has written as follows: >kriSna played a dual role in mahAbhArata as a strategist and pacifist. On >one hand he kept preparing pANDavAs for the battle, but when he was sent as >an ambassador he said even five villages are ok for them. His role as a >pacifist was improperly ignored. Not enough information is available to say that the demand for 5 villages was reconciliatory and whether it was ignored properly or improperly without knowing the names and sizes of the villages and the total number of villages and their sizes that would have been left for Kauravas. There is no mention in Mahabharat about any other conditions attached to this offer. We have go by only what is disclosed by the Vyas since Mahabharat is such a marathon hodge podge of so many stories. --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: We'll keep repeating history until we get a passing grade. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Mar 15 15:19:04 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 10:19:04 -0500 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita In-Reply-To: <20010315141353.51117.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068286.23782.756226605799277172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My understanding is that this forum is for the exchange of ideas, information, perspectives, insights among scholars, and not for asking or posting people's CVs. So I will have to ignore this irrelevant ad hominem query. However, if anyone is interested in such personal matters, one is welcome to send me an e-mail, and I will be glad to exchange such info. Best regards, VVRaman March 15, 2001 From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Thu Mar 15 16:47:31 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 10:47:31 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Lord_Rama_was_recognised_by_scholar=C2=92s_time_ago?= Message-ID: <161227068321.23782.11283432028552725431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My dear friends: I'm working in philological-critique research in one Document of Colonial Saltillo City. But, eventoungh I heard in how , supposedly It is and Indo- About India culture; logical- science or study, forum and read , some about one fanatical adherent in the fundamentalis scepticism and other superfluous postures ( Vid. The antiscientific and subjetive limititations of skcepticism in Historia de las doctrinas Filosoficas, por el Dr. Raul Gutierrez Saenz from UNAM, UI, UBM. Editorial Esfinge. Mexico. 1971, I answer other time the next lines. My more humbly request to all of your that are very prominents and sages teachers. It to be more neutral in the words that we are using in the study of the literature consider sacra by living religions. And is very healthy and objective don't used corrosive, ambigue, laberintine, and offensive words.( Tribal, mythology or idols, fictitious characters whit historical personality in the hagiographical or protohistoric or traditional texts). Because we are incursioning in nor friendly skys of hiperspace of feelings, subjetivism , using our own tittle degree to adroctinatitions in the sciences circles and we become easy prize for the vaisnava-apolgetic fighters. If you want a exempla of this, I could send to you outside of this list or only if the chairman of this list let me, I can send with anonimus or pseudonymous, an interesting paper. But please read the next. But is necessary maintain in mind, don?t be offensive in the name of to be ourselves so called racionalistics or cientifics and used hypercritical language for Rama and vedic history. For example is very used from Hindus authors, words like mythology that means- mitos- untruth, int the greek root of the Spanish word men-ti-ra, falsity, Sanskrit- mithya. Other example is when some traditional believers said, "In this work I will be probing that such and such was a historical personality", etc.. Because, Rama had been recognised for time ago like historical fact. I can given to you one antologhy; but please observer with open eyes. nor with the liver, this follow: Horace H. Wilson, 1870: "Rama and Krishna, who appear to have been originally real and historical characters,.." (1) W.J. Wilkins: "In north India, He is, perhaps the Visnu incarnation more popular and in truth, Ramayana, the work when there is found the history ...it has the more beautiful legends in the Hindu sacred scriptures. Ramayana it is occupied very extensive in the history of life of Rama" ...There is confirmation uncommon, but real, that support the historic of hero (Rama)." (2) E. Royston Pike in the authorised adaptation for Elsa Cecilia Frost Translation: "Rama. In the Hinduism, the septum avatara or incarnation of Visnu y he was the hero of the grant Epic poem Ramayana (the Gesta of Rama)..and relate all the biography...Vid. (3) The Nobel Laureate and cientifical historian of life of Jesus, Albert Schweitzer: "Rama like Krishna, is a national deific hero and later consider as a manifestation of Visnu." (4) Steven Rosen: ""Even to day, B.B. Lal. a top Indian archaeologist, continues to uncover important finds. Director-General of the Archaeological Survey From 1968-1972, Lal is still working diligently in his chosen field. In fact he is currently directing an Indian national project: Archaeology of the Ramayana Sites". Firsts conserved in 1977 by the Indian Institute for Advance Study in Shimla and the Archaeological Survey of India, the project calls for rigorous, Although it should see completion sometime later this years. The goal of the project is to prove the historicity of the stories in the Ramayana...Great succes has alrteady bee achieved"..(5) Bibliography 1.-.-Wilson, Horace H. The Visnu Purana. Nag publisher?s 1989 pp.ii 2.--Wilkins, W.J. Mitolog?a Hind?. Edicomunicaciones, S.A. Espa?a, pp. 172-173. 3.-Pike, E. Royston, Diccionario de las Religiones. Fondo de Cultura Econ?mica. M?xico. 1951. 4.-Schwietzer, Albert. El Pensamiento de la India. Fondo de Cultura Econ?mica. M?xico. 1935 pp.161. 5.-Rosen, Steven. Archeology and the Vaisnava Tradition. Firma KLM Pravate Limtied. Calcutta. 1989 pp. 6 From jkcowart at ADNC.COM Thu Mar 15 22:03:54 2001 From: jkcowart at ADNC.COM (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 14:03:54 -0800 Subject: Book about 'Bagger Vance' Message-ID: <161227068297.23782.2720654341985523823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------- For those who may wish to refer to Pressfield's The Legend of Bagger Vance in courses on the Gita or on religion and culture: The following precursor from 1972, in which a Scots- man named Shivas Irons (partly a pun on "Chivas" Regal Scotch Whisky) is the mystical protagonist, may also be of interest. Murphy, Michael. Golf in the Kingdom. 1972; rpt. New York: Penguin USA, 1997. That work was followed post-Bagger by: Murphy, Michael. The Kingdom of Shiva's Irons. 1st ed. New York: Broadway Books, 1997. Also possibly relevant (in the light of sports as action): Murphy, Michael and Rhea A. White. In the zone: Tran- scendent experience in sports. New York: Penguin/ Arkana, 1995. A thematic comparison of all three with respect to the actual principles of the Gita itself might make a good term paper for an able student. J. Kingston Cowart, M.S. San Diego, California < -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1089 bytes Desc: not available URL: From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 16 00:38:30 2001 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 16:38:30 -0800 Subject: SV: "Bagger Vance" & Doniger on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068308.23782.3085649049017403622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Lars Fosse schrieb: << On the other hand, as a Hindu disagreeing strongly with Doniger, YOU (or anybody sharing your opinions) have the right to speak out against her, or to write and publish a rebuttal, showing why you think she is wrong and criticizing her views on Hinduism (you would of course have to find a publisher or newspaper willing to print your rebuttal). Drexel university was not required to have a "counterspeaker". There are countless venues for debate and statements in a free society, from the simple soap-box to the university hall or newspaper front page. Any theme such as Doniger's can be reiterated and redebated anywhere in society. Your challenge is to do this in such a manner that you convince. >> A small clarification. As I mentioned in my original email, this is part of the forwaded mail that I received. As for defending Gita, there are many here and elsewhere. Example, you might have seen Prof. Raman's rebuttal yesterday. Regards, Prasad _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 15 16:52:53 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 16:52:53 +0000 Subject: Enquiry - How do I unsubscribe temporarily for three weeks? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010310181214.008e5570@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <161227068289.23782.10555336353398936731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See the web page http://www.indology.org.uk for all information. Shortcut: got to http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/indology.html and "change settings". On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Shikaripura Harihareswara wrote: > Dear Sri "Administrator" of the List, > Please advice me how do I unsubscribe to the List > temporarily for about three weeks? > Thanks! > -Harihareswara > ====== > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 15 17:02:38 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 17:02:38 +0000 Subject: 2 points to note In-Reply-To: <007801c0ab13$53f3f880$149dfea9@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <161227068292.23782.15602578975507956100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I also think that Aditya's remarks were unacceptable, and sufficiently poorly judged as to warrant his exclusion from INDOLOGY. I have cancelled his membership. On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, L. Suresh Kumar-LSK wrote: > 3. This sort of personal accusations has to stop. > Hence, I also request the list owner to revoke the posting > privileges of Aditya for making such nauseating comments on others. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 15 22:06:58 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 17:06:58 -0500 Subject: Scripts (Re: SV: Workshop on Islamicate Culture) Message-ID: <161227068300.23782.14341095175059263078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>> Swaminathan Madhuresan 03/15 9:52 AM >>> This is a request for info from the venerable list. 1. Is Gurmukhi script given any patronage by Punjabis? YES. It is the official script for Panjabi in India, as a Scheduled Language. How are the administrative affairs conducted in print? Gurmukhi? YES. 2. Does Marathi have a historic script? Or, is it the same as Devanagari? If there was a switch, when? It is Devanagari, with some variations in letter forms from that used in North India. 3. Is Maithili still used by Bihar pundits? 4. What about Kashmir? Is it made into Devanagari script now? Urdu or Sarada? The most common script for it is Perso-Arabic. The administrative language of Jammu and Kashmir State is Urdu, which is taught much more in the schools than Kashmiri. Printing in Sarada continued into the 20th c. but as far as I can find has been extinct for some decades. Traditional Kashmiri Hindu poetry I believe tends to be printed in Nagari. Kashmiri poetry is now usually in Perso-Arabic but may also be printed in Nagari and even Roman (I am referring to printing for Kashmiris, not scholarly or language instruction works for a foreign or cosmopolite audience). In neither of these is there a settled and agreed upon system to deal with sounds peculiar to Kashmiri, of which there are a good number. There are eds. of Hindu, particularly Kashmiri Shaiva, religious classics in Sanskrit that are both in Nagari and Arabic script, the Arabic script version starting at the 'back' of the book if the binding is held to the left. Allen Thrasher Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Thu Mar 15 20:39:10 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 20:39:10 +0000 Subject: Devanagari, Scripts, freedom (Re: SV: Workshop ) Message-ID: <161227068294.23782.784221040609207694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >True most people had their Gita and >prayer "pothi"'s in Devanagari, but for all other >purposes they seemed to use the Perso-Arabic aka Urdu >script. For example, I have not seen a single Punjabi >trader using 'Nagari even for business purposes. I have also seen Punjabi (Sikh) traders using Urdu script. In Punjab, Urdu script was standard, even for Hindus (and Sikhs). It should be rememberd that undivided Punjab was a Muslim majority region, "P" in Pakistan is said to stand for Punjab. However in much of the rest of North India, Devanagari was the main script for Hindus. I have seen stacks of business correspondence (mostly postcards) from the early part of the century in some families, almost all in some form of Devanagari. See: http://www.harappa.com/post/card2.html . (The script is incorrectly identified as Modi.) I have a book on Banpur town (Bundelkhand region) that has photographs of letters from Rani of Jhansi to the Raja of Banpur. They are in Devanagari. I have seen nothing to suggest that in my region (MP) the common people ever learned the Urdu/Farsi script. Those in the business of writing government doucments did learn Urdu. I think many Kayasthas (the professional writers) during the Mughal rule and early british period often learned Urdu script first (or at the same time as Devanagari). It may also be true for some traders in Delhi, I have read that at one time, they wrote mantras in Urdu script. Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >1. Is Gurmukhi script given any patronage by Punjabis? >How are the administrative affairs conducted in print? >Gurmukhi? It is now the official script in Indian Punjab. I think for quite a while it was only used for religious purposes. It is based on Takari script, used by Khatri traders (the Sikh Gurus were Khatri), related to Sharada script for the hills. >2. Does Marathi have a historic script? Or, is it the same >as Devanagari? If there was a switch, when? Marathi script used to be Modi. It had the special feature that you could write one (or several) words without lifting the tip of the pen. I think it was used until 18th century, however it it still occasionally taught. >3. Is Maithili still used by Bihar pundits? I have seen printed books using Devanagari. >4. What about Kashmir? Is it made into Devanagari script now? >Urdu or Sarada? Kashmiri language was largely oral only. I think Urdu is the official language & script there. The Kashmiri Hindus sometimes use Devanagari for writing Kashmiri. Sharada has not been in use for quite some time. aditya2 at MEDIAONE.NET wrote: >My point was to state that India is one of the most repressive and >reprehensible state as far as freedom of speech is concerned and to claim >otherwise and try to compare with US is hypocritical at best. Record of >India is no better than that of Iran or Afghanistan in this matter. That is false. In India I have seen regular newspapers, tabloids, and small newspapers criticise and ridicule politicians, businessmen and administrators etc frequently. They sometimes write offensively in a way I have never seen in USA. I know a popular biweekly magazine in India that regularly criticizes various religions, specially Hindu traditions. It is hard to imagine that happening in Pakistan, Iran or Afghanistan. Yashwant From giravani at JUNO.COM Thu Mar 15 22:16:43 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 01 22:16:43 +0000 Subject: Syllabic versus Alphabetic Scripts Message-ID: <161227068302.23782.14380924454941819103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the best of my knowledge, Devanagari is syllabic script while Roman is alphabetic script. I do not know the category of the ancient Indian Brahmi script. Is their any reason for the ancient Indians going in the direction of syllabic Devanagari instead of alphabetic script? Devanagari produces almost all sounds of Sanskrit faithfully. Was this true of Brahmi? Was Brahmi ever used to write Sanskrit? When did the Granth script of South India come into existence? What is the earliest inscrition(or writing) in Devanagari found in India? I read that Vietnam has Devanagari inscription from 8th century AD. Thanks. N.R.JOshi. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 16 00:28:10 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 00:28:10 +0000 Subject: Syllabic versus Alphabetic Scripts Message-ID: <161227068305.23782.1140564713480917299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thiru. N. R. Joshi wrote: >To the best of my knowledge, Devanagari is syllabic script while >Roman is alphabetic script. True, the nagari script is syllabaries, M. Deshpande's Sanskrit book has several pages running to encompass all consonant-clusters of Sanskrit in nagari. But, Harvard-Kyoto system used here or with diacritics in academic printed works is simpler. >I do not know the category of the ancient Indian Brahmi >script. Is their any reason for the ancient Indians going in the direction >of syllabic Devanagari instead of alphabetic script? >Devanagari produces >almost all sounds of Sanskrit faithfully. >Was this true of Brahmi? Was Brahmi ever used to write Sanskrit? Because vedas and Panini preceded Ashoka, and the syllabaries in grammars formed due to oral memory traditions, brahmi is syllabic too. But around 150 AD only we have Skt. inscriptions. Prof. Witzel wrote about some short ones in Mathura little earlier. >When did the Granth script of South India come into existence? What is the >earliest inscrition(or writing) in Devanagari found in India? I read that >Vietnam has Devanagari inscription >from 8th century AD. Thanks. N.R.JOshi. Vietnam and regions near it have much earlier inscriptions employing South Indian grantham letters. Grantham was due to Pallavan rule. Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From giablik at LIBERO.IT Fri Mar 16 00:33:10 2001 From: giablik at LIBERO.IT (=?utf-8?Q?Stefano_Pell=C3=B2?=) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 01:33:10 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227068311.23782.859094065024374751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a graduate in Persian studies at Venice University, Italy, and I'm interested in three specific aspects of Persian culture in islamic India: Persian literature written by Hindus (e.g. the Chahar Chaman by Chandra Bhan Brahman), from either a linguistic or a religious point of view; interpretative works of Indian culture written in Persian by Muslims, such as the Tuhfat al-Hind by Mirza Khan b. Fakhr al-Din; traditional studies on Persian language written in India (in the field of lexicography, grammar, etc.), such as the works by Hansawi and Arzu. I would be grateful if you could suggest me names of scholars and/or centres involved in this kind of research, both in India (I'm going there in April) and Europe. Thank you in advance Yours sincerely, Stefano Pell? From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Mar 16 04:09:01 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 04:09:01 +0000 Subject: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068314.23782.7932648623794858700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reference-Wendy on Geeta. What is the difference between An American University and an American Christian Church? Churches routinely teach that Hebroo was the mankind's first and original language and address Mahatma Gandhi in their sermons as Hindu Gandhi.In future, I expect more attacks on Mahabharata and ShriKrishna. They are paid to do that.More than 20 million dollars are spent (conservative estimate) by the western world to study the ancient pagan, heathen, Hindu India. Why? Thanks. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 16 14:24:33 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 06:24:33 -0800 Subject: Uiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068325.23782.502019062954469305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2 points to note. 1. American Universities and Churches are quite distinct. 2. The popular European attraction is the Indo-German/European, Aryan connection with Sanskrit. See, the books by Leon Poliakov, The Aryan myth, M. Olender, The language of the Paradise. There was competion between Hebrew and Sanskrit once William Jones clinched the Sanskrit connexion. Politicians used Sanskrit for different goals. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 16 14:53:19 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 06:53:19 -0800 Subject: Welcome to the indological group In-Reply-To: <984745847.1873.47952.s3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <161227068327.23782.8171973289197894215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It appears new open forums for discussing Indic heritage are blooming. I received the following message, and the procedure to subscribe and to unsubscribe are included. I have seen busy lists like IndianCivilization, IndicTraditions. And, it looks the indology is diversifying. Regards, SM --- indological Moderator wrote: > > Hello, > > I've added you to my indological group at Yahoo! Groups, a free, > easy-to-use email group service. As a member of this group, you > may send messages to the entire group using just one email address: > indological at yahoogroups.com. Yahoo! Groups also makes it easy to > store photos and files, coordinate events, and more. > I have taken the liberty of subscribing you in the hope that you > will switch your discussion to this list which is promised to be open and > unrestricted. > > To start sending messages to members of this group, > simply send email to > > indological at yahoogroups.com > > If you do not wish to belong to indological, you may > unsubscribe by sending an email to > > indological-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > You may also visit the Yahoo! Groups web site to modify your > subscriptions: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > Regards, > > Moderator, indological > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > TO START SENDING messages to members of this group, simply send email > to indological at yahoogroups.com > > If you do not wish to belong to the indological group, you > can unsubscribe by replying to this message, or by sending an email to > indological-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > Regards, > > Moderator, indological > > > P.S. If you would like to learn more about the indological group, > please visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indological > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Fri Mar 16 14:39:42 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 08:39:42 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Krsna_in_Gita_n=C2=BA1?= Message-ID: <161227068375.23782.16657003359247079066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik: PLase, my teacher send me his paper, He is may teacher in sanscrit and india philosphy. I think it is very nice paper. You can check his corriculum with Dr. Witzel in Harvard. Krishna in the Bhagavad-g?t? >A Beginning Ontology >This is a paper originally presented to the Committe on Study of Religion, >at the University of California at Los Angeles by Hridayandanda Goswami MA >and Ph D. From Harvard and it is the first draft, the original was show in >the BGT of sep/oct , Nov/Dec 1994 and Jan/feb 1995. > >Introduction > I attempt in this paper to clarify certain essential teachings of the >Bhagavad-g?t? which are traditionally "zones of puzzlement" among scholars. >These areas focus on a single point: the nature and status of God, Krishna, >according to the G?t?. My strong conviction is that the G?t? itself is a >lucid, self-explanatory work, and therefore the occasional practice of >commentators to force on it extraneous doctrines often renders the text >obscure where it is bright, esoteric where it is literal, and impersonal >where it is intensely personal. I am operating here on an ancient principle >which holds that certain Vedic literatures are svata--pr?m?yam, literally >"evident in or by themselves". As stated in the Bhavibya-pur?na: > rig-yajur-s?m?rtharv?r ca bh?ratam pa?ca-r?trakam > m?la-r?m?yana? caiva veda ity eva sabdit?h > pur?n?ni ca y?n?ha vaisvav?ni vido viduh > svatah-pr?m?nyam eteb?? n?tra ki?cid vic?ryate > ?The rig Veda, Sama Veda, Atharva Veda, Mah?bh?rata, Pa?car?tra and >original R?m?yana are all considered by authorities to be Veda. The knowers >also know that those Pur?nas dedicated to Lord Visnu enjoy the same status. >These literatures are self-evident, and there is nothing at all to speculate >about them.? > It should be noted at once that the above exegetic principle does not do >away with intellectual response to the scriptures. Rather it is a call for >sober hermeneutical practices, in which we first struggle to comprehend a >scriptural message on its own terms, through careful study of its internal >structures of meaning. > We get some historical flavor of this methodology by turning to a >fascinating theological debate which took place almost 500 years ago in >Benares between Sr? Caitanya Mah?prabhu, the founder of Gaud?ya Vaisnavism, >and Prak?s?nanda Sarasvat?, a leading ?sankarite sanny?s? of the time. After >hearing Prak?s?nanda's interpretation of Ved?nta-s?tra, Sr? Caitanya >Mah?prabhu replied: ?The Veda is evident by itself. It is the crown-jewel of >all evidence. By interpreting it, the self-evident quality is lost.? >[Caitanya-carit?m?ta, ?di-l?l?, 7.132] The original text, in medieval >Bengali, is: > svatah-pram?na veda -- pram?ma-siromani, laksar? karile >svatah-pram?nat?-h?ni. > >The quality of self-evidence mentioned above is especially apparent, in my >view, in the Bhagavad-g?t?, which is part of the Mah?bh?rata. I have >therefore selected five specific areas, vital to the Bhagavad-g?t?'s >message, which are especially prone to misinterpretation, and I have >attempted to demonstrate from the Bhagavad-g?t? itself the consistent, and >self-evident view of the speaker, Lord sr? Krishna, especially as He >describes Himself. > The first topic is the G?t?'s strong montheism, in which the many gods of >the Hindu pantheon are sharply relegated to the status of subordinate >servitors to the Supreme Lord. The second topic is that of the separate >individuality of Krishna as God, distinct from, and transcendental to, the >individual entities, who are tiny expansions of the Lord. Third, I have >shown that within the G?t?, Krishna is understood to be the supreme >controller. The fourth subject is the delicate issue of monism. I believe to >have clearly shown that despite certain statements in the G?t? to the effect >that "Krishna is everything," there is nothing like a bald monistic doctrine >in the G?t?. Finally, in the fifth section, I have argued from the >Bhagavad-g?t? itself that Krishna comes to this world in a spiritual, >eternal form, and not a material body, such as those we inhabit. > As mentioned above, these five topics ineluctably lead to a single >conclusion: that the real and final topic of the Bhagavad-g?t? is Krishna >Himself, who is inseparably related to, and yet eternally transcendental to >the individual souls, of whom we are specimens. This doctrine of >bhed?bheda-tattva, or the inconceivable, simultaneous difference and >non-difference of the Lord and the individual souls, is Sr? Caitanya's >reading of the Bhagavad-g?t?, and Vedic literature in general. > I have included the topic that Krishna is the controller to drive home the >point that the Godhead being talked about in the Bhagavad-g?t? is not a >vague, wispy Deity, whose true ineffable status is but indirectly hinted at >by the hierarchical language of mortals. Completely to the contrary, we have >in the G?t? a full-blown expression of an omnipotent, omniscient, >omnibenevolent Supreme Lord, commanding, and even poignantly entreating, the >individual souls enmeshed in m?y? to return to Him in His divine abode. > I call this paper a "Beginning Ontology" because the constraints of time >and space have permitted only an introductory statement about the Godhead, >as He is conceived in the Bhagavad-g?t?. In fact, the points made herein are >amplified by the rest of the Bhagavad-g?t?. At the very least, I hope this >paper will stimulate the reader to investigate the G?t? as far as possible >on its own terms. There are certainly esoteric passages in religious >scriptures, including the Vedic books. But the guiding Vedic principle is >that we should interpret that which is ambiguous, that which plainly calls >for explication of hidden meanings. There are many such statements in the >Sanskrit scriptures, but the fundamental message, the central theme is >generally clear. > The verses quoted here are all my own translations, unless otherwise >indicated, and I have given great stress on literal accuracy in their >rendering. I have endeavored to avoid, thereby, unfounded flights of poetic >inspiration, and dubious constructions devised to legitimate tentative >insights. My conclusions reflect what I have learned from the Bhagavad-g?t? >As It Is, [The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, Los Angeles, 1989] whose >translation and purports are the the unique devotional scholarship of His >Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. > The point of view here is clearly in the tradition of ?r?p?da Madhv?c?rya, >?r?p?d R?m?nuj?c?rya, ?r? Caitanya Mah?prabhu, and other illustrious >Vaisnava scholars, who opposed the monistic interpretation of sr?p?da >?Sankar?c?rya, and those in his line. In a sense, one gets here a glimpse of a millennial theological debate in action. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 16 09:37:08 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 10:37:08 +0100 Subject: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068316.23782.16810700002631165170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan R.Joshi [SMTP:giravani at JUNO.COM] skrev 16. mars 2001 05:09: > Reference-Wendy on Geeta. What is the difference between An American > University and an American Christian Church? Churches routinely teach that > Hebroo was the mankind's first and original language This sounds like a very American phenomenon. I grew up in the Norwegian Bible belt, but no one ever claimed as far as I can remember that Hebrew was mankind's first language. (The Bible of course says so, but most modern Christians realize that they are dealing with a myth and not with history). and address Mahatma > Gandhi in their sermons as Hindu Gandhi.In future, I expect more attacks on > Mahabharata and ShriKrishna. They are paid to do that.More than 20 million > dollars are spent (conservative estimate) by the western world to study the > ancient pagan, heathen, Hindu India. Why? Thanks. Probably because India is an interesting country. Most of the people that study India today are agnostics (or more or less indifferent to personal religion), not fervent Christians, as far as I can see. Seen from a Christian point of view, Hinduism is of course "pagan", but seen from an atheist or agnostic point of view, there is no difference between Christianity and Hinduism when it comes to religious truth value. Most agnostics would analyze both religions from a sociological, historical or doctrinal point of view and not show much interest in whether one of these religions is truer than the other. No doubt, Christian theologians will attack Hinduism in the future - you're competition - but I don't see many attacks coming from universities (unless it is the sort of critique that university people hand out in all directions anyway). Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Fri Mar 16 20:58:55 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 12:58:55 -0800 Subject: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068335.23782.14723805136858037998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Narayan R.Joshi wrote: > > > Reference-Wendy on Geeta. What is the difference between An American > > University and an American Christian Church? Churches routinely teach > that > > Hebroo was the mankind's first and original language > Lars Martin Fosse wrote in reply: > > This sounds like a very American phenomenon. I grew up in the Norwegian > Bible belt, but no one ever claimed as far as I can remember that Hebrew > was mankind's first language. (The Bible of course says so, but most modern > Christians realize that they are dealing with a myth and not with history). > > I don't believe the Bible does say so. Please cite your source. Nor have I ever heard it suggested in the American church circles in which I have traveled or am familiar, which is a very wide range. The Bible says everyone spoke one language after the Flood until God "confuse[d] their language so they will not understand each other," and "confused the language of the whole world." (Gen. 11:7, 9, NIV.) It does not say that Hebrew was the language existing since the Creation of Adam and Eve, nor that it somehow survived until the "Hebrew" tribe came into being some considerable period later. No doubt some ignoramus would assume so, and has at one time or another, but I fail to see why ignorance should be seen as a "very American" trait. Kindly cite your source. :-) Actually, it--this language theory--sounds Indian in origin. I -have- heard it asserted by some (Pakistani) Muslims that Arabic is God's language, and Michael Witzel recently reviewed a book by Dr. Madhusudan Mishra which purports to show the development of the holy Vedic language from primitive utterances in a Sarasvati-based Eden, "They were godly people who spoke little words with profound meaning." Or prehaps the assumption that our gods are just like us is a more universal phenomenon. American universities are generally large educational complexes. Some American universities were originally founded by American church organizations, but most such large or well-known universities have long since severed such connections. There are some church-connected colleges and universities, especially of the medium and smaller sizes, and some of them are noted for their scholarship as well as for their teaching. (There are also state-funded universities and self-funding universities.) According to its website, the University of Chicago was founded by John D. Rockefeller, the legendary capitalist, who called the University "the best investment I ever made." Doesn't sound like a church. David From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Mar 16 12:37:00 2001 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 13:37:00 +0100 Subject: Nepali dictionary Message-ID: <161227068319.23782.11719277422138061681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, do you know of any *good* Nepali-English dictionary online? Thank you for the information, eg -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Macerata, ITALY Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Tantric Studies Journ. of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org ********************************************************* From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Fri Mar 16 15:01:54 2001 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 15:01:54 +0000 Subject: Q: Historical Tamil syntax Message-ID: <161227068330.23782.6003157341462875566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to know how far back we can trace the following usage in Modern Tamil: The "future" form (historically derived from the non-past) is also used in case of states considered to be intrinsic or permanent, even if the referent is not alive. For example, 1) avar nalla uyaramaay iruppaar He was quite tall. [In English, 'was' is required if the referent is dead.] 2) madurai maNi iyer na_nRaaka shaNmugapriyaa paaDuvaar. Madurai Mani Iyer was good at singing Shanmugapriya. It does not seem easy to find examples of such situations from the oldest Tamil texts. Whether a given form is considered a participle or a finite verb also seems to vary with the authority consulted, making it harder to classify a given sentence as nominal or not. [These cannot be waved away as historical presents. Use of past forms here change the meaning: saying paaDi_naar in 2) makes it seem to refer to a specific concert; saying iruntaar in 1) sounds strange.] From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 16 15:46:21 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 15:46:21 +0000 Subject: New "indological" group at Yahoogroups Message-ID: <161227068332.23782.7752627259552915645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Several of you have kindly written to draw my attention to the new forum called "indological". I am aware of it, and of the stated goal of the group, which is expressed in such regrettable terms. "Indological" has been set up by Aditya, whom I recently unsubscribed from INDOLOGY on the grounds that he called another member "Hitler". It is a pity that people who are unsubscribed from this list become angry. But I can quite see how easy it would be to get cross and hurt, and I regret having to be instrumental in that. But as I have said so very, very often in this forum, I will not tolerate rudeness and bad conduct in our conversation. I am sure "indological" will achieve all the the success it deserves. Best wishes, -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Mar 16 21:33:47 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 16:33:47 -0500 Subject: expert needed on Kristapurana of Thomas Stephens, S.J. Message-ID: <161227068338.23782.6322099447372011278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know anyone working on the texts of the Kristapurana or other Konkani works of Thomas Stephens, S.J.? Is Shantaram Bandelu who edited the Kristapurana back in 1956 still alive? Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Fri Mar 16 23:23:26 2001 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (George Cronk) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 18:23:26 -0500 Subject: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068340.23782.16615395149992051063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Bible rarely refers to Hebrew as a language (although it refers to "Hebrews" from time to time), and it never states that Hebrew was the "original" language. Quite the contrary, the "original" language is depicted as lost, having been eclipsed by the many human languages inflicted on the human race by God as a way of preventing the construction of the Tower of Babel. Further, there is certainly no mainstream (i.e., non-cultic) form of Christianity that claims that Hebrew (or any other language) was the "original" language. I am not even aware of any Christian cults that make this bizarre claim. Christianity as such has no position whatever on the question of what the "original" language was. From a Christian point of view, this is a completely irrelevant question, theologically speaking. Re: American universities and American Christian churches: No close connection at all. If anything, we have too much "separation of church and state" in our educational system. In my entire life (I am 52), I have not heard more than ten mentions of Gandhi during Christian church services, and they have all been very respectful (if anything, utterly uncritical). What nonsense comes up on this "scholarly" list all too regularly! Maybe this sort of thing should be shipped out to "Yahooooo!" Dr. George Cronk Chair, Dept. of Philosophy & Religion Bergen Community College Paramus, New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Martin Fosse" To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 4:37 AM Subject: SV: UNiversity and Church > Narayan R.Joshi [SMTP:giravani at JUNO.COM] skrev 16. mars 2001 05:09: > > Reference-Wendy on Geeta. What is the difference between An American > > University and an American Christian Church? Churches routinely teach > that > > Hebroo was the mankind's first and original language > > This sounds like a very American phenomenon. I grew up in the Norwegian > Bible belt, but no one ever claimed as far as I can remember that Hebrew > was mankind's first language. (The Bible of course says so, but most modern > Christians realize that they are dealing with a myth and not with history). > > and address Mahatma > > Gandhi in their sermons as Hindu Gandhi.In future, I expect more attacks > on > > Mahabharata and ShriKrishna. They are paid to do that.More than 20 > million > > dollars are spent (conservative estimate) by the western world to study > the > > ancient pagan, heathen, Hindu India. Why? Thanks. > > Probably because India is an interesting country. Most of the people that > study India today are agnostics (or more or less indifferent to personal > religion), not fervent Christians, as far as I can see. Seen from a > Christian point of view, Hinduism is of course "pagan", but seen from an > atheist or agnostic point of view, there is no difference between > Christianity and Hinduism when it comes to religious truth value. Most > agnostics would analyze both religions from a sociological, historical or > doctrinal point of view and not show much interest in whether one of these > religions is truer than the other. > > No doubt, Christian theologians will attack Hinduism in the future - you're > competition - but I don't see many attacks coming from universities (unless > it is the sort of critique that university people hand out in all > directions anyway). > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sat Mar 17 00:29:06 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 01 19:29:06 -0500 Subject: SV: UNiversity and Church In-Reply-To: <002101c0ae70$1b5ca340$b1692c3f@dfqyq> Message-ID: <161227068343.23782.8794912757733735726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sacred Language 1. Many ancient peoples believed that their languages came from a divine source. This is/was a perfectly reasonable assumption in a frameork which regards the Divine as the source of everything, especially the blessings of culture and civilization. 2. Hinduism, Judaism, and Islam are perhaps the only major religions which (at least in classical times) did not encourage (sometimes prohibited) the translation of their primary scriptures from their respective languages [Sanskrit, Hebrew (language of Canaan, as the Bible says), Arabic] which were regarded as sacred. 4. Christians, on the other hand, were only too eager to by translating the New Testament. 5. In this context, ardent missionaries like William Carey unwittingly did great service to the systematic publication of books in many languages in India. By 1832 The Serampore Press near Calcutta had printed 212,000 volumes in 40 different languages and dialects. 6. I am not defending or attacking missionaries, merely recalling some historical facts. V. V. Raman March 16, 2001 From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Mar 17 01:32:25 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 01:32:25 +0000 Subject: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068345.23782.17851253384657289223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.V. Raman wrote: > 2. Hinduism, Judaism, and Islam are perhaps the only major religions which (at > least in classical times) did not encourage (sometimes prohibited) the > translation of their primary scriptures from their respective languages > [Sanskrit, Hebrew (language of Canaan, as the Bible says), Arabic] which were > regarded as sacred. Although it depends on what you mean by "classical", this is exactly the case with Judaism. Although the standard Torah compiled and promulgated by Ezra and Nehemiah in the decades following the return of the exiles from Babylon is written in Hebrew, this language was not understood by many of the exiles who instead were fluent in Aramaic. Indeed some late parts of the Tanakh (what Christians call the Old Testament) are written in Aramaic. Those parts which were not already in Aramaic were soon translated into that language (the so-called targums) and these were in use for centuries, well into medieval times. One should also recall the translation of the Tanakh into Greek under the earlier Ptolomaic dynasty (3rd century BCE) in Egypt (aka the Septuagint) -- this was also widely used instead of the Hebrew version by Alexandrian etc Jews who could not read the Hebrew. There seems to have been not restrictions on the use of translations provided they were accurate -- the concern that pious Jews should have access to their religious laws seems to have been paramount. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 17 10:18:02 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 05:18:02 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068356.23782.3954146403909029866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly check this. It is a sample of how gIta is misunderstood. The list is endless. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VedicRitual/message/14 >There is none of the polemic so characteristic of disputatious Indian >philosophy; ... >only the Vedic ritual [mainly "yajnas"] beloved of the >Mimansakas is condemned outright. Please check b.g.3.9 yajnArthAt karmaNo 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanaH tad-artham karma kaunteya mukta-sangaH samAcara "Any work done for other than yajna is a cause of bondage", meaning yajna is not bondage. If there is a doubt that yajna may not remove existing bondages or give freedom, b.g. 3.11 devAn bhavayatAnena te deva bhavayantu vaH parasparam bhavayantaH sre- yaH param avapsyatha "The gods having been pleased by the yajna will please you, mutually pleasing one another, the supreme you will achieve". Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sat Mar 17 12:01:12 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 07:01:12 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068365.23782.13498318059974286313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. I thank Dr. Upadhya for drawing attention to D. D. Kosambi's interpretation of the Bhagavad Gita. Most readers here must be familiar with this work and with scores of other scholarly commentaries on this world classic. 2. Please understand that my comments were made in the context of provocative statements [, etc.] made to a general audience which may not have had much familiarity with the work at all. 3. We live in a culture-sensitive world. A symposium on Gita in a non-Hindu cultural matrix could inform, educate, and enlighten people on the positive elements of other culures so as to build bridhges of understanding and mutual respect so direly needed in the new century. Of course in the course of a discussion one can draw attention to some of the not-so-positive elements in a text or a tradition. 4. I am not denying anybody the right to criticize the Gita or any sacred book for that matter qua scholars. Certainly, in a symposium on the work in which scholars and students of the Gita are present, controversial theses may be presented and mutually critiqued. 5. I am well aware my own comments are open to criticism also, and I welcome them. That is what scholarly exchanges are all about. In matters of interpretation, it is not so much , as looking from another perspective. 6. I was referring primarily to the attitude and tone of a scholar in the analysis of a work that are held in reverence by millions of people, never mind if these are misguided or enlightened people. 7. And I think the adherants of the religion (at least some of them) can present their own perspectives with comparable severity: which I what I did. 8. Surely, if this group is interested in initiating a symposium on the Gita, that is fine by me. But that may not be the wish of all the participants, given that there is an enormous volume of literature on the topic in many libraries.In any event, that's for other members to decide. With best regards, VVRaman March 17, 2001 From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 17 07:34:26 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 07:34:26 +0000 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068349.23782.16070711117525524789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been reading D.D. Kosambi's "Myth and Reality", in which he gives his interpretation of the Bhagavad Gita. In view of V.V. Raman's recent post on the subject (and the fact that the matter is cleary controversial), i am giving some extracts from Kosambi's book. The reason for this is that Kosambi seems to be agreeing with Doniger's interpretation (which Dr Raman seeks to refute) at least in the main lines, so far as i can tell from reading those who are refuting her(I haven't read Doniger's own interpretation of the Gita as yet). Comments from Dr Raman and others would be much appreciated. p.s. In extract given below, "Mbh" refers to the "Mahabharata". ------------------------------------------------------------ After giving the background on the Gita, Kosambi writes (pgs 16-19, 26, and 37) : The Gita has attracted minds of bents entirely different from each other and from that of Arjuna.Each has interpreted the supposedly divine words so differently from all the others that the original seems far more suited to raise doubts and to split a personality than to heal an inner division. Any moral philosophy which managed to receive so many variant interpretations from minds developed in widely different types of society must be highly equivocal. No question remains of its basic validity if the meaning be so flexible..... The Gita sets out each preceding doctrine in a masterly and sympathetic way without naming or dissecting it, and with consummate skill passes smoothly on to another when Arjuna asks, "why then do you ask me to do something so repulsive and clearly against this?" Thus, we have a brilliant (if plagiarist)review-synthesis of many schools of thought which were in many respects mutually incomapatible. The incompatibility is never brought out; all views are simply facets of the one divine mind. The best in each system is derived, naturally, as from the high God. There is none of the polemic so characteristic of disputatious Indian philosophy; only the Vedic ritual [mainly "yajnas"] beloved of the Mimansakas is condemned outright. The Upanisads are well--if anonymously-represented, though the Svetasvatara Upanisad alone contains the germ of "bhakti", and none the theory of perfection through a large succession of rebirths. This function of "karma" is characterestically Budhist. Without Budhism, G.2.55-72 would be impossible. The "brahma nirvana" of G.2.72, and 5.25 is the Budhist ideal state of escape from the effect of "karma". We may similarly trace other--unlabelled--schools of thought such as Sankhya and Mimansa down to early Vedanta (G.15.15 supported by the reference to the "Brahma Sutra" in G.13.4). This helps date the work as somewhere between 150-350 A.D., nearer the later than the earlier date. The ideas are older, not original, except perhaps the novel use of "bhakti". The language is high classical Sanskrit such as could not have been written much before the Guptas, though the metre still shows the occasional irregularity (G.8.10, 8.11, 15.3 , etc.) in "tristubhs", characterestic of the "Mbh" as a whole. The Sanskrit of the high Gupta period, shortly after the time of the Gita, would have been more careful in versification.... ...To put it bluntly, the utility of the Gita derives from its peculiar fundamental defect, namely dexterity in seeming to reconcile the irreconciliable. The high god repeatedly emphasizes the great virtue of non-killing ("ahimsa"), yet the entire discourse is an incentive to war. So G.2.19 ff. says that it is impossible to kill or be killed. The soul merely puts off an old body as a man his old clothes, in exchange for new; it cannot be cut by weapons, nor suffer from fire fire, water or the storm. In G.11, the terrified Arjuna sees all the warriors of both sides rush into a gigantic Visnu-Krishna's innumerable voracious mouths, to be swallowed up or crushed. The moral is pointed by the demonaic God himself (G.11.33): that all the warriors on the field had really been destroyed by him; Arjuna's killing them would be a purely formal affair whereby he would win the opulent kingdom. Again, though the "yajna" sacrifice is played down or derided, it is admitted in G.3.14 to be the generator of rain, without which food and life would be impossible. This slippery opportunism characterises the whole book. Naturally, it is not surprising to find so many Gita lovers imbued therewith. Once it is admitted that material reality is gross illusion, the rest follows quite simply; the world of "doublethink" is the only one that matters..... No one could object to the interpolation of a story ("akhyana") or episode. After all, the Mbh purports to be the recitation in the Naimisa forest to the assembled sages and ascetics by a bard Ugrasravas, who repeated what Vyasa had sung to Janamejaya as having been reported by Sanjay to Dhritrastra! The brahmins were dissatisfied with the profit derived from the Gita, not with its authenticity. So, we have the "Anu Gita" as a prominent sequel to in the 14th Canto. Arjuna confesses that he has forgotten all the fine things told before the battle, and prays for another lesson. Krishna replies that it would be impossible even for him to dredge it out of his memory once again; the great effort was not to be duplicated. However, an incredibly shoddy second Gita is offered instead which simply extols brahminism and the brahmin. Clearly, that was felt necessary at the time by the inflators though no one reads it now, and it cannot be compared to the first Gita even for a moment. Secondly, the Gita as it stands could not possibly help any ksatriya in an imminent struggle, if indeed he could take his mind off the battle long enough to understand even a fraction thereof. The ostensible moral is: "Kill your brother, if duty calls, without passion; as long as you have faith in Me, all sins are forgiven." Now the history of India always shows not only brothers but even father and son fighting to the death over the throne, without the slightest hesitation or need for diving guidance. Indra took his own father by the foot and smashed him (Rig Veda 4.18.12), a feat which the brahmin Vamadeva applauds Ajatasatru, king of Magadha, imprisoned his father Bimbisara to usurp the throne, and then had the old man killed in prison. Yet, even the Budhists and Jains, as well as the "Brhadaranyaka Upanisad" (2.1) praise the son (who was the founder of India's first great empire) as a wise and able king. The "Arthasastra" (A.1.17-18) devotes a chapter to precautions against such ambitious heirs-apparent; and shows in the next how the heir-apparent could circumvent them if the were in a hurry to wear the crown. Krishna himself at Kuruksetra had simply to point to the Yadava contingent, his own people, who were fighting in the opposite ranks. The legend tells us that all the Yadavas ultimately perished fighting among themselves. Earlier, Krishna had killed his maternal uncle Kamsa. The tale gains a new and peculiar force if it be remembered that under mother-right, the new chief must always be the sister's son of the old. Thirdly, Krishna as he appears in Mbh is singularly ill-suited to propound any really moral doctrine. The most venerable character of the epic, Bhisma, takes up the greatest of Mbh "parvans" ("Santi") with preaching morality on three important questions: King-craft ("raja-dharma"), conduct in distress ("apada-dharma"), and emancipation ("moksa dharma"). As regent, he had adminstered the kingdom to which he had freely surrendered his own right. He has shown irrestible prowess and incomparable knightly honour throughout his long life of unquestioned integrity. The sole reproach anyone can make is that he uses far too many words for a man shot full of arrows, dying like a hedgehog on a support of of its own quills. Still, Bhisma seems eminently fitted to teach rectitude. But Krishna? At every single crisis of the war, his advice wins the day by the crookedest of means which could never haver occurred to others. To kill Bhisma, Sikhandin was used as a living shied against whom that perfect knight would not raise a weapon, because of doubtful sex. Drona was polished off while stunned by the deliberate false report of his son's death. Karna was shot down against all rules of chivalry when dismounted and unarmed; Duryodhana was bludgeoned to death after a foul mace blow that shattered his thigh. This list is by no means the the complete list of iniquities. When taxed with these transgressions, Krishna replies bluntly at the end of the "Salya parvan" that the man could not have been kiled in any other way, that victory would never have been won otherwise. The calculated treachery of the "Arthasastra" saturates the actions of this divine exponent of the "Bhagavad Gita". It is perhaps in the same spirit that leading modern exponents of the Gita and of "Ahimsa" like Rajaji have declared openly that non-violence is all very well as a method of gaining power, but to be scrapped when power has been captured: "When in the driver's seat, one must use the whip."..... ...That Krishna had risen from the pre-Aryan people is clear from a Paninian reference (Pan. 4.3.98, explained away by the commentator Patanjali) to the effect that neither Krishna nor Arjuna counted as Ksatriyas. But his antiquity is considerable, for he is the one god who uses the sharp wheel, the missile discus, as his peculiar weapon. This particular weapon is not known to the Vedas and went out of fashion well before the time of the Budha. Its historicity is attested only by cave paintings (fig. 1.17) in Mirzapur which show raiding horse charioteers (clearly enemies of the aboriginal stone-age artists) one of whom is about to throw such a wheel. The event and the painting may fairly be put at around 800 b.c. by which date the dark god was on the side of the angels, no longer an aborignee himself.... .....Modern life is founded upon sciene and freedom. That is, modern production rests in the final analysis upon accuarate cognition of material reality (science) and recognition of necessity (freedom). A myth may grip us by its imagery, and may indeed have portrayed some natural phenomenon or process at a time when mankind had not learned to probe nature's secrets or to discover the endless properties of matter. Religion clothes some myth in dogma. "Science needs religion" is a poor way of saying that the scientists and those who utilize their disoveries must not dispence with social ethics. There is no need to dig into the Gita or the Bible for an ethical system sandwiched with pure superstition. Such books can still be enjoyed for their aesthic value. Those who claim more usually try to shackle the minds of other people, and to impede man's progress, under the most specious claims. Individual human perfection on the spiritual plane becomes much easier when every individual's material needs are satisfied on a scale agreed upon as reasonable by the society of his day.... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 17 16:14:57 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 08:14:57 -0800 Subject: University and Church Message-ID: <161227068386.23782.8078435689634168241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > This sounds like a very American phenomenon. I grew up in the Norwegian > Bible belt, but no one ever claimed as far as I can remember that > Hebrew was mankind's first language. (The Bible of course says so, but most > modern Christians realize that they are dealing with a myth and not with >history). Don't know whether the Bible says Hebrew as mankind's first language. But definitely there was a big movement among European intelligentsia to deny Hebrew as the first language by IE scholars of Europe once the European and Sanskrit connection was established. Maurice Olender, The Languages of Paradise: Race, Religion, and Philology in the Nineteenth Century, Harvard University Press, 1992. In the Foreword (p.vii) starts: "Where was Paradise? In what blessed region of the world did God place the Garden of Eden, and what language did Adam and Eve speak when they lived there? Did the first couple, at the dawn of history, converse in *Hebrew*, as Saint Augustine quite naturally assumed? Or, should we, as Leibnitz believed, look for a more primitive idiom, the language of the Scythian continent, supposedly the root of the various languages spoken by the so-called Indo-European peoples and thus, in the eyes of scholars, the original speech of humankind?" Augustine (354-430 CE) held that Hebrew was the first language. Johann Gottfried Herder (1744-1803) went for Sanskrit from the heights of Indian mountains and, he said Ganges is the river of Paradise. Ferdinand de Saussure (1857-1913) rejected Hebrew and went for Aryan. Augustine's view on the centrality of Hebrew was shattered by the IE data and, 19th century saw the raising of sanskrit in European mind. Wide ramifications followed. Hegel, Reason in History, 1830 "The pretension takes up again the old notion of a primary, paradisaical state of man, which the theologians had elaborated after their fashion by asserting, for example, that God had spoken with Adam in Hebrew." p. x "These myths were steeped in erudition, informed by profound knowledge of Hebrew and Sanskrit, fortified by comparative study of linguistic data, mythology, and religion. .... As scholars established the disciplines of Semitic and Indo-European studies, they also invented the mythical figures of the Hebrew and the Aryan, a providential pair which, by revealing to the people of the Christianized West the secret of their identity, also bestowed upon them the patent of nobility that justified their spiritual, religious, and political domination of the world." Like Tom Trautmann's great book on Aryans and the British, Maurice's book also deserves a wider audience and deep study. David Salmon wrote: <<< No doubt some ignoramus would assume so, and has at one time or another, but I fail to see why ignorance should be seen as a "very American" trait. Kindly cite your source. :-) Actually, it--this language theory--sounds Indian in origin. I -have- heard it asserted by some (Pakistani) Muslims that Arabic is God's language, and Michael Witzel recently reviewed a book by Dr. Madhusudan Mishra which purports to show the development of the holy Vedic language from primitive utterances in a Sarasvati-based Eden, "They were godly people who spoke little words with profound meaning." Or prehaps the assumption that our gods are just like us is a more universal phenomenon. >>> Usually European ideas reach Indian subcontinent after a time lag. Yours, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Mar 17 08:49:01 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 08:49:01 +0000 Subject: Interpreting the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068353.23782.3596963127809993280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> D D Kosambi, as quoted by Satya Upadhyaya, writes: >Ajatasatru, king of >Magadha, imprisoned his father >Bimbisara to usurp the throne, and then had the old man killed in prison. >Yet, even the Budhists and Jains, as well as the "Brhadaranyaka Upanisad" >(2.1) praise the son (who was the founder of >India's first great empire) as a wise and able king. The canonical Buddhist text, the Diigha Nikaaya, in fact portrays Ajaatasattu as being tormented by guilt for this act, and suffering terrible consequences because of it (see e.g. the Saama??aphala Sutta). The Ajaata'satru of the UpaniSads is probably not the same man (see previous discussion on this list). Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sat Mar 17 17:02:59 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 12:02:59 -0500 Subject: University and Church In-Reply-To: <20010317161457.56896.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068389.23782.11648929060543350284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. As often happens in cross-talk, I am a little lost about the thrust of this thread. 2. Yes, St. Augustine thought that Hebrew was the fist language, even as ancient Egyptians thought that Thoth created speech and writing, Icelandic people that Odin did it, ancient Hindus thought that Brahma gave speech and writing to human beings, Muslims think that Arabic is the language of the Gods, , etc. 3. In a poetic sense all were/are probably right. In a (modern) literal sense it is difficult to understand what these statements mean. 4. So where do we go from here, beyond the recognition that in pre-modern times most origin questions were generally settled by invoking a divine (supernatural) principle? V. V. Raman March 17, 2001 From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sat Mar 17 19:04:38 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri Semenov) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 12:04:38 -0700 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068401.23782.4133721070563590988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta wrote: > Gita is not a science, but it shares a characteristic of the hard > sciences, and that is understanding comes from practice. That's a good point. Do you happen to know of anyone who won at least one village using gItA as a guide? Regards, Dmitri. From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sat Mar 17 19:38:33 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri Semenov) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 12:38:33 -0700 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068407.23782.12462304714176560422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > pANDavAs won bhArata kingdom when they were outnumbered by 18:11. The > pacifism of Buddha emasculated the armies and India lost its identity, and > by the time Sankara brought back gIta it was too late. The invaders already > got enough momentum to maintain technological lead in cannon technology, gun > powder etc. Hopefully gIta will again help in future :-) I meant a historic event that might be verified. And it should be in the context of civil war. Not just any war. The problem Arjuna was advised on was who to fight in civil war. And that is a lot different from fighting war with foreigners. From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sat Mar 17 20:39:45 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 12:39:45 -0800 Subject: University and Church Message-ID: <161227068412.23782.14917043655712164712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Fosse, I enjoy (most) European "teasing" of Americans, but I had you dead to rights. Can't let an opportunity like that pass. ;-) It would appear, thanks to the remarkable erudition on this list, that we were both wrong, since Hebrew as God's tongue has obviously had respectable Christian support. Can't get much more pre-certified-orthodox than Augustine, I suppose. Thankfully, the idea has not survived into modern times, though 1955 is a little too close for comfort. Regards, David From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Mar 17 12:00:52 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 13:00:52 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068362.23782.6149999378214233140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Salmon [SMTP:dsalmon at SALMON.ORG] skrev 16. mars 2001 21:59: > Lars Martin Fosse wrote in reply: > > > > This sounds like a very American phenomenon. I grew up in the Norwegian > > Bible belt, but no one ever claimed as far as I can remember that Hebrew > > was mankind's first language. (The Bible of course says so, but most > modern > > Christians realize that they are dealing with a myth and not with > history). > > > > > I don't believe the Bible does say so. Please cite your source. I am afraid I have to eat humble-pie here. I should have checked the biblical text instead of relying on my obviously mistaken memory. The Bible only says that men spoke the same language, and that God confused them so that they shouldn't become too powerful. > No doubt some ignoramus would assume so, and has at one time or another, but > I fail to see why ignorance should be seen as a "very American" trait. > Kindly cite your source. :-) Here, I am afraid that I fell prey to that very tempting European sport called "tease the Americans" :-). (You know, America, that vast nation of country bumpkins). I suppose I should apologize for that - there may be sensitive souls on the list. The bottom line is that your description of attitudes in American churches apparently matches my own description of the attitudes of the Norwegian churches completely. So together, we have hopefully killed the idea that Hebrew is regarded as the world's first language by Christians. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 17 13:28:16 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 13:28:16 +0000 Subject: Brahma/Brahmin Deer skin seat and dress Message-ID: <161227068371.23782.13398835093277970459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why does Brahma/brahmins sit upon and wear a dress made of deer skin while doing sacrifices? What kind of deer is it?, Indian art depicts Brahma's upper garments with a black antelope. Thanks for your help, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 17 13:22:08 2001 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 14:22:08 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068368.23782.9182620334203758497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Lars Martin Fosse wrote: So together, we have > hopefully killed the idea that Hebrew is regarded as the world's first > language by Christians. > But it should be noted that this view indeed existed in Christian Europe. It seems have to be discarded by the 19th century. Refer e.g. to the Encyclopedia Britannica. (Section on "Historical Attitudes toward language"). Regards, Martin Delhey _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 17 19:29:43 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 14:29:43 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068404.23782.15254502744275117193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dmitri wrote >Do you happen to know of anyone who won at least one village using >gItA as >a guide? pANDavAs won bhArata kingdom when they were outnumbered by 18:11. The pacifism of Buddha emasculated the armies and India lost its identity, and by the time Sankara brought back gIta it was too late. The invaders already got enough momentum to maintain technological lead in cannon technology, gun powder etc. Hopefully gIta will again help in future :-) Can we have less of euology (for or against Bible, gIta or whatever) and some more logic? Best, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sat Mar 17 15:06:24 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 15:06:24 +0000 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068379.23782.13758348431801869271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The short answer is that, IMO, D. D. Kosambi does not understand the Gita very well. The long answer is probably more than list members would be willing to read. Still, I bluntly state that a materialist ( as D. D. Kosambi appears to be by the closing part of the citation ) cannot understand the Gita, any more than a non-mathematical philosopher can understand Einstein's General Relativity. If you have not by direct experience understood the following, then, with no disrespect intended, I don't care if you are all the current and future Sanskritists of Chicago and Harvard rolled into one, you have not understood a thing, in my opinion : 2.40 swalpam apy asya dharmasya trAyate mahato bhayAt. A scholar of Sanskrit is one who knows the language very well. To draw an analogy, it is someone who can identify the origin of the pigments in a painting, how the paints were made, the origin of the canvas, the order in which brush strokes were made, what the brush was made of, etc. But that does not make one into a competent art critic. -Arun Gupta From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 17 20:08:29 2001 From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 15:08:29 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita In-Reply-To: <3AB3BD38.C5DA1FCB@pipeline.com> Message-ID: <161227068429.23782.13705072089054446060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I feel a careful study of the Gita makes it pretty obvious that Krishna's purpose was not really to teach Arjuna how to fight the war but what Arjuna's "duty" was at that time and how he should carry out his "duty." In the historical context, it so happened that at that time Arjuna's duty was to fight for a just and righteous cause. If Gita taught war, it would have no relevance to most of us today who are unlikely to go and fight a war. But generations of practitioners can testify to its continued relevance and importance in showing us a way when we are confused about the nature of our duty and the best way of carrying it out. That, at least, is my understanding of the Gita. A much respected commentary on the Gita in Marathi is titled Karma-rahasya ("The Secret of Work"). It was written at the beginning of the last century by Bal Gangadhar Tilak. Best wishes, Swami Tyagananda Vedanta Society Boston >Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > > > pANDavAs won bhArata kingdom when they were outnumbered by 18:11. The > > pacifism of Buddha emasculated the armies and India lost its identity, and > > by the time Sankara brought back gIta it was too late. The invaders already > > got enough momentum to maintain technological lead in cannon > technology, gun > > powder etc. Hopefully gIta will again help in future :-) Dmitri Semenov wrote: >I meant a historic event that might be verified. >And it should be in the context of civil war. Not just any war. >The problem Arjuna was advised on was who to fight in civil war. >And that is a lot different from fighting war with foreigners. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 17 15:11:49 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 15:11:49 +0000 Subject: Serious warning about "indological@yahoogroups.com" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068382.23782.18442630108741491877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As you know, Aditya Mishra has set up another discussion list, "indological at yahoogroups.com" which espouses his values more closely than INDOLOGY. It has been brought to my attention by a member of INDOLOGY that: > Aditya, whoever he is, has taken my e-mail (since i am a subscribes to > ur indology list and one'e e-mail is displayed in ur list) and has > mischeviously added me onto another list of his own. There are other > indology list members whose names have been added (without our prior > permission, of course). It looks as though Aditya has taken about seventy names from INDOLOGY and subscribed them all to his indological group without permission or consultation. This happened on 16 March 2001. There is even a suggestion that when a member discovered this, and unsubscribed from indological, Aditya resubscribed them once again, against their wishes. Aditya has said in his list: >I did subscribe a few people originally and a few of them have chosen to >unsubscribe but I see no need to do resubscribe any one now. This is a very serious matter, and it is likely to be a breach of Yahoo's Terms of Service. None of this has anything to do with INDOLOGY, or me, but I feel it is appropriate to pass on the information here, since Aditya has targetted INDOLOGY members. If you have a complaint you wish to make to Yahoo, the form is at http://add.yahoo.com/fast/help/abuse/cgi_abuse -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sat Mar 17 23:46:04 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 15:46:04 -0800 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068435.23782.16395858286813471385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Arun Gupta wrote: > > > Gita is not a science, but it shares a characteristic of the hard > > sciences, and that is understanding comes from practice. > Dmitri wrote: > > That's a good point. > Yes, it is, I think, but I probably wouldn't be able to pass a college-level introductory class on "Hindu Religion" if I had to cite even basic sources from memory. We left my level of expertise heretofore. But as an ex-soldier, I have my own experiential "take" on the Gita that I think I could surely transform into an interpretation well within the range of what passes for student understanding, i.e., a good grade, were I to spend a few minutes cramming the text. My point is: If I could do that, out of my very limited experience of war, why could not Dr. Doniger, who is a self-asserted pacifist, have a somewhat similar catharsis, resulting in her own particular "take"? Especially given that her audience apparently was composed of college students. Professors are expected to strike provocative poses before students in order to stimulate interest and insight. The more curious and serious among them will then come and take the actual courses, thus bestowing knowledge benignly upon the world and helping to keep the professors employed. Is Prof. Doniger not entitled to act as a good teacher should, even on an American campus? I think one can answer a bad idea with a better idea, but I don't think one can support a claim she isn't competent to judge simply on the ground that she is not a devotee, if there is any of that in what Dr. Gupta is saying. It may help, to be sure, I don't know. But as a professor fulfulling her function, part of which is stimulating thought and interest among students, is not what she is said to have said (I agree with the observor who noted that it is always hearsay, never an actual text or transcript) still well within the boundaries of both academic and personal liberty and academic standards? We are dealing with mass ignorance here, remember, when we speak of raw college students. I have one in the house now and then. As one old codger to another, IMHO, David From noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 17 10:29:27 2001 From: noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM (Noorjahan Begum) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 15:59:27 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227068359.23782.6362921361299941993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stefano Pello, You can find some literature of Indian mix Culture written in Percian script by Muslims, Which is called Dakhini Hindi or Dakhini Urdu (In a form of Epics). You will find it in Salarjung Museum and State Central Library of Hyderabad, India. Noorjahan >From: Stefano Pell? >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:33:10 +0100 > >I am a graduate in Persian studies at Venice University, Italy, and I'm >interested in three specific aspects of Persian culture in islamic India: >Persian literature written by Hindus (e.g. the Chahar Chaman by Chandra >Bhan Brahman), from either a linguistic or a religious point of view; >interpretative works of Indian culture written in Persian by Muslims, such >as the Tuhfat al-Hind by Mirza Khan b. Fakhr al-Din; traditional studies on >Persian language written in India (in the field of lexicography, grammar, >etc.), such as the works by Hansawi and Arzu. I would be grateful if you >could suggest me names of scholars and/or centres involved in this kind of >research, both in India (I'm going there in April) and Europe. > Thank you in advance > > Yours sincerely, > Stefano Pell? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Mar 17 16:06:31 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 16:06:31 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068394.23782.7873504665574086107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Delhey wrote: > But it should be noted that this view indeed existed in Christian Europe. It > seems have to be discarded by the 19th century. Refer e.g. to the > Encyclopedia Britannica. (Section on "Historical Attitudes toward > language"). Not quite the same view but similar are quoted with approval in the introduction to the 1955 ed of Biblical Hebrew in the once prestigious Teach Yourself series (R.K. Harrison): "[Hebrew] is the eternal mother-tongue of all true religion" and "This is the language which God spoke". One assumes that his motives are to encourage the study of Hebrew among Christians as he deplores the lack of interst among theology students. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From athr at LOC.GOV Sat Mar 17 21:32:05 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 16:32:05 -0500 Subject: SV: SV: UNiversity and Church Message-ID: <161227068418.23782.12179646880519047224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I presume that when it says "this is the language which God spoke, it means that this is the language in which he inspired the Hebrew Bible" and in which when he talked with the Patriarchs and Prophets, he addressed them. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> Stephen Hodge 03/17 11:06 AM >>> Martin Delhey wrote: > But it should be noted that this view indeed existed in Christian Europe. It > seems have to be discarded by the 19th century. Refer e.g. to the > Encyclopedia Britannica. (Section on "Historical Attitudes toward > language"). Not quite the same view but similar are quoted with approval in the introduction to the 1955 ed of Biblical Hebrew in the once prestigious Teach Yourself series (R.K. Harrison): "[Hebrew] is the eternal mother-tongue of all true religion" and "This is the language which God spoke". One assumes that his motives are to encourage the study of Hebrew among Christians as he deplores the lack of interst among theology students. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Sat Mar 17 22:10:01 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 17:10:01 -0500 Subject: Teach Yourself Books In-Reply-To: <001301c0af06$6ebcb7a0$f11f893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227068422.23782.11114807374104614877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Stephen Hodge wrote: > > Not quite the same view but similar are quoted with approval in the > introduction to the 1955 ed of Biblical Hebrew in the once prestigious > Teach Yourself series (R.K. Harrison): "[Hebrew] is the eternal > mother-tongue of all true religion" and "This is the language which > God spoke". One assumes that his motives are to encourage the study > of Hebrew among Christians as he deplores the lack of interst among > theology students. This is ther first time I have heard mention of this fascinating series on this list. I really did 'teach myself Sanskrit' with Michael Coulson's excellent book, and did the same with the much less challenging Teach yourself Latin years ago. Did anyone else on the list learn Sanskrit this way? In fact, I would be very interested in hearing from anybody who worked through the whole of one of these books on his or her own and became proficient in a language on that basis. Too bad there are no Dravidian volumes. There are books for self-instruction in Tamil and other Dravidian languages listed in the back of my Hippocrene pocket Apte Dictionary, but I inquired through the U of T bookstore and found that they are out of print. I worked part way through Teach Yourself Hebrew years ago, but I got drunk and lost it. Too bad: it seemed to be a pretty easy language to learn how to read. Or maybe it was divine grace: it is God's own language, after all. P. ERnest University of Toronto From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 17 22:22:58 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 17:22:58 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068426.23782.13300852131944126431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta states the following: My comments are below. They just address the portion of Dr. Gupta's message which I have included - >If you have not by direct experience understood the following, then, >with no disrespect intended, I don't care if you are all the current >and future Sanskritists of Chicago and Harvard rolled into one, you >have not understood a thing, in my opinion : > >2.40 swalpam apy asya dharmasya trAyate mahato bhayAt. > >A scholar of Sanskrit is one who knows the language very well. >To draw an analogy, it is someone who can identify the origin of >the pigments in a painting, how the paints were made, the origin of >the canvas, the order in which brush strokes were made, what the brush >was made of, etc. But that does not make one into a competent art critic. I think I agree with what I see as the spirit of this. The scientific study of religion is good for certain types of analyses but somewhat limited when it comes to interpreting religious ideas. If you grapple with an idea with too much scholarly distance or in too "objective" a fashion, you begin to ask the wrong kinds of questions. However, as scholars and teachers, we are sometimes put into the position where we have to give it our best shot: so, I empathize with the scholarly plight at times too. Lynken Ghose _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sat Mar 17 18:03:14 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 18:03:14 +0000 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068397.23782.10025950812003061931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shri Nair : No disrespect was intended towards D. D. Kosambi or anyone else. I however, wish to draw attention to a problem I see in methodology of understanding the Gita (or any other text of practical religion). Gita is not a science, but it shares a characteristic of the hard sciences, and that is understanding comes from practice. A student of physics is hardly said to have understood physics if he or she cannot successfully complete the exercises given in the book. Reading a scientific paper in physics is really a participatory exercise. The reader has to take out pen, paper, calculator, or experimental apparatus and do something to create understanding in himself. The very greatest of scientists read the abstract and then attempt to reconstruct the whole on their own, an attempt at self-discovery. Reading Einstein's papers, figuring out that the German style dates to the early twentieth century, placing the work in the context of the times and of Einstein's life and circumstances, produces a lot of value -- but not an understanding of the work itself, e.g., the theory of General Relativity. There is only one way to do understand General Relativity and that is to work through it yourself or with the help of someone who has done it already, your friendly neighborhood physics professor. Likewise, no amount of textual analysis will give one an understanding of the Gita. Practice the meditation described in the Gita, it will be more enlightening. The historicity or lack thereof of the author of the Gita should not give you pause. Even if historians manage to prove that Euclid never existed, that his work is the amalgamation of many authors (e.g., like Bourbaki), you still have to work through geometry to understand it. If a Doniger or Kosambi has not done the equivalent, their pronouncements on the meaning of the Gita are not of value to any serious student. -Arun Gupta From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 17 20:57:16 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 20:57:16 +0000 Subject: Upgrade to Prof. Yano's web-based Pancanga program Message-ID: <161227068415.23782.3633665947124867554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Yano's extraordinarily useful and sophisticated web-based tool for calculating various Indian eras and dates is located at http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/pancanga/index.html Prof. Yano has written to announce an upgrade to the program, and he has most generously made his algorithms publicly available. Dominik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:18:18 +0900 From: Michio YANO Subject: pancanga Dear Dominik, I have been working for upgrading the Perl version of pancanga program. There are several new features as you will see. I have decided to make the source script of the perl version open to the public. [...] I will appreciate if you announce about our new version. With best wishes, Michio YANO Tel +81-75-705-1781 Faculty of Cultural Studies Fax +81-75-705-1799 Kyoto Sangyo University e-mail: yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp Kyoto 603-8555 Japan http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/ From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Sat Mar 17 19:59:05 2001 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 20:59:05 +0100 Subject: e-mail address of Frederick M. Asher Message-ID: <161227068409.23782.4562113013973436365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, could anybody please help me with the e-mail address of Frederick M. Asher? Thanks very much Juergen Neuss, M.A. Freie Universit?t Berlin Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a 14195 Berlin Germany From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Sat Mar 17 17:05:54 2001 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 01 22:35:54 +0530 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068391.23782.9016741794939649257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Gupta, D.D.Kosambi was not a mere materialist; he was a highly reputed scholar of scientific materialism which is otherwise called dialectical and historical materialism. His contribution to the interpretation of Indian history and culture need not be certified by anyone. His knowledge of Sanskrit evidenced by his critical study and edition of Nitisataka also needs no certification. K.Maheswaran Nair Thiruvananthapuram Kerala,India ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arun Gupta" To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Interpreting the Gita > The short answer is that, IMO, D. D. Kosambi does not understand the Gita > very well. > > The long answer is probably more than list members would be willing to read. > Still, I bluntly state that a materialist ( as D. D. Kosambi appears to be by > the closing part of the citation ) cannot understand the Gita, any more than > a non-mathematical philosopher can understand Einstein's General Relativity. > > If you have not by direct experience understood the following, then, > with no disrespect intended, I don't care if you are all the current > and future Sanskritists of Chicago and Harvard rolled into one, you > have not understood a thing, in my opinion : > > 2.40 swalpam apy asya dharmasya trAyate mahato bhayAt. > > A scholar of Sanskrit is one who knows the language very well. > To draw an analogy, it is someone who can identify the origin of > the pigments in a painting, how the paints were made, the origin of > the canvas, the order in which brush strokes were made, what the brush > was made of, etc. But that does not make one into a competent art critic. > > -Arun Gupta > From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Sun Mar 18 00:09:44 2001 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 00:09:44 +0000 Subject: [Persian culture in islamic India] Message-ID: <161227068432.23782.11236131501105579746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On March 16, 2001, Stefano Pell? wrote > traditional studies on Persian language written in India > (in the field of lexicography, grammar, etc.) Vogel mentions seven lexicographic works dealing with Persian and Sanskrit. The most well-known of these is the P?ras?prak??a of KRSNad?sa, dating from the time of Akbar. It was edited by Albrecht Weber in 1887. The two oldest are from 1365. See p. 380 - 381 in Claus Vogel Indian Lexicography. Wiesbaden 1979. A History of Indian Literature, Vol. 5, Fasc. 4. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 18 14:07:03 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 09:07:03 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068441.23782.6257458297048996364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Arun Gupta wrote.. >If a Doniger or Kosambi has not done the equivalent, their >pronouncements >on the meaning of the Gita are not of value to any >serious student. It may be a tyranny to define requirements such as meditation on academic work. It is possible, but not easy to say any view is right or wrong, especially with a book having so many apparently contradicting views. I do agree that meditation can find the inner unity in the book, but it is so slippery even an expert can skid somewhere or other. My intention was not to disprove or disapprove Wendy or Kosambi or any one else. I just want to check if people are consistent with their own stated intentions; and if any texts are overlooked. gIta is not for winning. Within Hindu society if every body follows it who should win? It is a survival guide to find "something that works". That is the reason why every Hindu finds oneself at least in some corner, even if one does not find one's own self (hope you got the pun). As for Krishna's war tactics, I thought the rules were already broken when Bhishma started killing 10,000 soldiers a day because a mahArathi can only fight with a mahArathi. Can someone clarify? Krishna only matched a broken rule with another. As for India's (gIta based) history after Krishna (but after Sankara): whether they won any village.. Hindus hadn't learnt anything from gIta at least not until this century how to match an Amalekite massacre which had been the template of the foreign invaders. Even SivAji did not try to match the methods. Now Hindus know ofcourse - it is called the communal riot. Gandhi knew that British were not barbaric. He understood the British legal system. So he brought out ahimsa and satyAgraha from gIta as weapons to win back independence. I would say Gandhi was a near success, but wasn't quick enough to change his tactics and allowed a Nehru to monopolize the system. Vajpayee's handling of Kargil was in the spirit of a sthitaprajJa. But having said all this, students do get a cue from a professor how to getter better grades or jobs. Best, Regards _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Sun Mar 18 11:56:30 2001 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 11:56:30 +0000 Subject: Yahoo (was Serious warning about "indological@yahoogroups.com") Message-ID: <161227068438.23782.4163132964829385729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In case you are unaware of this: Yahoo, by default, allows group moderators to add Yahoo members without permission to their groups. If you don't want this to happen, you need to go to "My Preferences" and edit it so as to disable this. [Members of the Indo-Iranian group, or some others which were part of egroups may have become part of Yahoo groups when the two merged. And they may not aware of this bizarre policy of Yahoo.] Regards Nath From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sun Mar 18 20:34:35 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 14:34:35 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Krsna_in_the_Gita_n=C2=BA_3?= Message-ID: <161227068463.23782.16619263797254562971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2. Krishna and the individual souls are distinct entities. As Lord Krishna is eternally the Supreme Person, so the individual souls are, of logical necessity, eternally distinct from and subordinate to the Lord: ?Never did I not exist, nor you, nor all these kings. And it is certainly not (the case) that we shall not exist, all of us, for ever after. [na tv ev?ham j?tu n?sam na tvam na tva? neme jan?dhip?? na caiva na bhavi?y?ma? sarve vayam ata? param 2.12] Here Krishna clearly states that "all of us" [sarve vayam] will exist forever, just as I (Krishna), you (Arjuna) and all these kings have always existed at all times in the past. Indeed, never was there a time when we did not exist. In the previous verse, Krishna chastized Arjuna for taking the body to be the self. Similarly, in the verse immedaitely following, Krishna will describe the soul as deh?, the owner of the body, different from deha, the body. Indeed the entire first half of the second chapter of the Bhagavad-g?t? makes it clear that our real identity is eternal soul and not the body. Thus having said that a learned person (pa??ita) sees the soul, and not the body, as primary, it is certain that Krishna is speaking of the real person, the soul, as He begins to explain to Arjuna the fundamental ontology of the world. After all, how can the Lord be apa??ita, or foolish? Thus it is the real K???a, the eternal Krishna, and the real Arjuna, the eternal Arjuna, who have always existed and always will exist. And all of us, says Krishna, will continue to exist in the future. Similarly, later in the G?t?, we find the following: ?There are two [classes of] beings in this world, the perishable and the imperishable. All created forms are perishable, but a soul who stands at the summit is imperishable. ?The Supreme Person, however, is another, and He is declared to be the Supersoul. It is that inexhaustible Lord who has entered the three worlds and sustains them. ?Because I am beyond the perishable beings, and greater even than the imperishable, I am thus celebrated in this world, and in the Vedas, as the Supreme Person. One who knows Me in this way to be the Supreme Person is a knower of everything, and he worships Me with all his heart.? [Bg 15.16-19] There are many significant lessons in these four ?lokas of the G?t?. Krishna has defined the term puru?ottama as: the Supreme Person who stands beyond both the conditioned souls entangled in the snare of m?y?, and ?even beyond the highest soul?, e.g. a liberated soul who stands at the highest point of spiritual perfection. Indeed Monier-Williams in his Oxford Sanskrit dictionary describes k??a-stha? as the pure soul standing on the unchanging, spiritual platform. Since Krishna emphatically declares that the puru?ottma is beyond even the liberated soul, we can hardly translate puru?a here as "man" or anything indicative of a material position, since this would not even apply to the k??a-stha or the liberated soul, and what to speak of the Supreme Person who stands far beyond such a pure soul. Krishna uses the word api, "even" to make explicit that "I am beyond even the liberated soul. In other words, it is not the G?t?'s philosophy that one becomes Krishna, or equal to Krishna, by spiritual liberation. A normal reader would not question that Krishna is beyond the conditioned soul, but here the Lord emphasizes by the world api that He is beyond even the liberated soul who stands at the summit of spiritual perfection. The finality of this understanding of the supreme personal individuality of Krishna is confirmed at 15.19 wherein Krishna states that one who understands Him in this way [evam] as the Supreme Person [puru?ottama] is the knower of everything [sarva-vit] and worships the Lord with all his heart. [bhajati m?m sarva-bh?vena bh?rata 15.19] In other words, Krishna explicitly rejects the notion that realization of the personal feature of the Lord is a mere prelude to an eventual impersonal understanding. Earlier in the fifteenth chapter, Krishna states that the living being in this world is eternally a fragmental part [a??a] of the Lord. [mamaiv???o j?va-loke j?va-bh?ta? san?tana? 15.7] The soul is further said to be indivisible [acchedyo 'yam 2.24], and so the fragmental status is not effectuated in time, but is a pre-eternal, never-ending fact: [na tvev?ha? j?tu n?sa? na tvam neme jan?dhip?? na caiva na bhavi?y?mah sarve vayam atah param 2.12] As Lord K???a simply puts its, God is not one of the ordinary living beings, nor even one of the liberated souls; rather: ?the Supreme Person is someone else ? [uttama? puru?as tv anya? 15.17] We have already demonstrated that Krishna claims to be absolutely cognizant and the source of all other cognition. He makes the same claim in the thirteenth chapter where Lord Krishna introduces the terms k?etra, ?the field (i.e. the body)? and k?etra-j?a, ?the knower of the field (i.e. the soul who is conscious of the body).? The Lord concludes this discourse by asserting that although each soul is the knower of his field, i.e. his particular body, ?I am the knower of all fields, meaning all bodies [k?etra-j?a? c?pi m?? viddhi sarva-k?etre?u bh?rata 13.3]. In the same thirteenth chapter, Krishna describes both the individual soul and the Lord as puru?a, but the contrast is striking. The individual soul is a purusa, but he is (a) ?situated in material nature,? (b) ?trying to enjoy the material qualities?, and thus (c) compelled by his attachments to those qualities to take birth in high and low species of bodily encangement [puru?a? prak?ti-stho hi bhu?kte prak?ti-j?n, k?ra?a? gu?a-sa?go 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu 13.22]. In the very next ?loka, the Lord describes Himself also as puru?a, but the difference between the two puru?as could not be more clear, for Krishna is said to be the supreme or transcendental purusa? [purusa? para?]. The use of the adjective parah to denote the supreme purusa is sigificant, for this word not only entails the notion of supremacy, but also a strong sense of "the other". Indeed, para is often used in Sanskrit to indicate the opposite of ?tma- or sva- 2 , both of which indicate "self" or "one's own". In fact, ?tma is the simple reflexive pronoun in Sanskrit. In other words, para has the unenquivocal sense of here of the wholly other who is supreme. In this same ?loka, Lord Krishna also uses the term param?tm?, describing Himself thus as the "Supreme Soul". It should be noted that the adjective parama [used with ?tm? to form param?tm?], is almost identical to para, as regards the notion of supremacy, but that parama does not convey the sense of being the "other" in contrast to one's self. It is this wider term para that Krishna employs to distinguish Himself, as purusa, from the ordinary puru?a who is struggling vainly to exploit the Lord's material creation. Thus the G?t?'s claim that the indiviual soul is eternally distinct from the Supreme Soul is a strong one, and not a vague or esoteric articulation. The Lord is also said to be the maintainer of the living beings [sarva-bh?c caiva 13.5]. It is natural that the Lord maintain the living beings, for they are stated in the G?t? to be the Lord's own energy: ?Besides the material nature, there is another superior energy of Mine. Know it to be the living being ? [apareyam itas tv any?m prak?ti? viddhi me par?? j?va-bh?t?m ] The living being trapped in the clutches of m?y?, the Lord's illusory material energy, can only escape her control by surrendering to the Lord. He cannot escape by his own autonomous decision or endeavor: [daiv? hy e?? gu?a-may? mama m?y? duratyay?, m?m eva ye prapadyante m?y?m et?m taranti te 7.5]. From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sun Mar 18 20:37:13 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 14:37:13 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Krsna_in_the_Gita_n=C2=BA_4?= Message-ID: <161227068466.23782.8339638053743270402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 4. Krishna is everything Lord Krishna strongly and repeatedly declares in the Bhagavad-g?t? that He is the source of all that be. It follows that God is not only distinct from His creative energies, but He is also one with them since they are eternally resting on Him. Sr? Caitanya Mah?prabhu thus stated that the philosophy of the G?t? is acintya-bhed?bheda-tattva, which means that God is inconceivably one with, and simultaneously different from, His creation. We shall survey Krishna's statements that He is the source of everything, and then see how this claim is logically linked to the claim that ?all things are Krishna.? Sri Krishna declares in the Bhagavad-g?t?: ?I am the source of everything, from Me everything emanates.? [aham sarvasya prabhava? matta? sarvam pravartate 10.8]. Similarly, He states: ?I am the origin and the annihilation of the entire cosmos.? [aha? k?tsnasya jagata? prabhava? pralayas tath? 7.6] Krishna goes on to say, ?There is nothing else beyond Me, O Dhana?jaya. All this world rests on me like pearls strung on a thread.? [matta? paratara? n?nyat ki?cid asti dhana?jaya, mayi sarvam ida? protam s?tre ma?i-ga?? iva 7.7] And as previously quoted, ?Neither the hosts of gods nor the great sages know my origin, for in all respects I am the origin of the gods and great sages.? [10.2] Krishna is not only the source of the living beings, but of their qualities as well: ?Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from confusion [and ten other qualities], in their various types, are states of being of the living entities, and they all come from Me.? [buddhir j??nam asammoha? bhavanti bh?v? bh?t?n?m matta eva p?thag-vidh?? 10.4-5] ?The seven primordial sages, and the four Manus owe their existence to me for they are born of My mind.? [mahar?aya? sapta p?rve catv?ro manavas tath? mad-bh?v? m?nas? j?t? 10.7] Let us now examine the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad-g?t?, wherein Lord K???a claims [10.20-38] to be the superlative examplar in seventy categories. Here is a sample verse from that section: ?Of the ?dityas I am Vi??u; of lights I am the radiant sun; of the Maruts I am Mar?ci; of stars I am the moon.? [?dity?n?m aha? vi??ur jyoti??? ravir a??um?n, mar?cir marut?m asmi nak?atr???m aha? ?a??] To read monism into all of this would be a transparent misreading of the text, for a serious look at the entire chapter makes abundantly clear what K???a is actually saying. First, we notice that most of Krishna's statements, cited above, to the effect that He is the source of everything come from this same tenth chapter, namely verses 10.2, 10.4-5, 10.7, and 10.8. Krishna precedes, then, His identification of Himself with the greatest items of this world by emphasizing that He is the source of all these things. Recall that in the seventh chapter Krishna stated that all the things of this world are His energy, or prak?ti [7.4-6] and that He is therefore the source of all that be. That Krishna is referring to the same ontological state of affairs becomes clear when we notice the repeated use here of the word vibh?ti, which indicates the following: expansion, manifestation of might, great power, glory etc. Arjuna introduces this term when he says to Krishna: ?You should speak about your own divine glories, those by which you pervade these worlds and abide in them.? [vaktum arhasy a?e?e?a divy? hy ?tma-vibh?taya?, y?bhir vibh?tibhir lok?n im??s tva? vy?pya ti??hasi 10.16]. The word for "glories" here is vibh?taya?, the plural form of vibh?ti. But that is just the beginning of this word's career in the tenth chapter of the G?t?. Arjuna then says, ?O Jan?rdana (Krishna), please describe again, and extensively, your mystic power and might for as I listen to this ambrosia, I find no satiation.? [vistare??tmano yoga? vibh?ti? ca jan?radana, bh?ya? kathaya t?ptir hi ???vato n??ti me 'm?tam 10.18] Again, the word for "might" is vibh?tim. Lord Krishna then answers, agreeing to explain His own divine opulences, and again the word vibh?taya?, plural of vibh?ti, is used 10.19]. In the very next ?loka, the Lord begins His identification of Himself with the 70 categories mentioned above. At the end of the narration, Krishna says, ?O burner of the foe, there is no end to my divine powers, and so I have given some example of the extension of my glory.? [n?nto 'sti mama divy?n?? vibh?t?n?m parantapa, e?a t?dde?atah prokto vibh?ter vistaro may? 10.40] Predictably the word vibh?ti is used twice in this vese, and it is repeated in the following verse, wherein Lord Krishna says: ?Whater glorious, beautiful, or mighty being there may be, understand that it is born of but a spark of my splendor. [yad yad vibh?timat sattvam ?r?mad ?rjitam eva v?, tat tad ev?vagaccha tvam mama tejo-'??a-sambhavam10.41]. Here the word vibh?ti-mat means "that which possesses vibh?ti, i.e. power, glory etc. By using the word vibh?ti no less than six times, Lord K???a makes clear that He is talking about His powers, His properties, His opulences etc. In the seventh chapter, there are three "identification verses" [7.9-11] which exactly resemble in meter, language, and content the "identification verses" of the tenth chapter [10.20-38]. These three verses, as in the tenth chapter, are preceded by an elaborate analysis of how Lord Krishna is the source of all that be, matter and spirit being His superior and inferior potencies. At the conclusion of 7.9-11, K???a declares that all of these opulences that He has identified Himself with in fact come from Him, and are resting in Him, but He is not in them. [matta eveti t?n viddhi na tv aha? te?u te mayi 7.12]. It also bears mentioning that one who rightly understands the sense in which K???a is the source of everything does not then consider that all beings are God, but rather worships the real God with wholehearted devotion: ?I am the source of all, from me all proceeds. Knowing this, the wise worship Me with all their being.? [aha? sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate, iti matv? bhajante m?m budh?? bh?va-samanvit?? 10.8] The purpose of the identification verses is to nourish the devoted thesists, as K???a explains in the verse immediately following the above ?loka: ?Their minds in Me, their lives dedicated to Me, the devotees enlighten one another, always speaking about Me, and thus they are satisfied and rejoice. [mac-citt? mad-gata-pr??? bodhayanta? parasparam kathayanta? ca m?? nitya? tu?yanti ca ramanti ca 10.9]. Further, Arjuna explicitly states that it is just to facilitate such meditation on the Lord, that he is requesting Krishna to describe His glories: ?Always thinking of You, O Yogin, how can I know You? In which various forms, my Lord, am I to think about You? Describe to me at length Your glories etc.? [katha? vidy?m aha? yogin tv?? sad? paricintayan, ke?u ke?u ca bh?ve?u cintyo 'si bhagavan may? vistare??tmano yoga? vibh?ti? ca jan?rdana bh?ya? kathaya 10. 17-18]. There is hardly a doctrine of pantheism in the Bhagavad-g?t?. The real message is quite clear: surrender to Krishna. There is one instance where Lord K???a says that after many births, one in knowledge surrenders to the Lord, realizing that ?V?sudeva (K???a) is everything.? [bah?n?? janman?m ante j??nav?n m?m prapadyate v?sudeva? sarvam iti 7.19] Similarly, there is an instance where Arjuna tells Krishna, ?You cover everything and thus You are everything.? [sarva? sam?pno?i tato 'si sarvam 11.40] In these cases also, there is devastating evidence against the impersonal, monistic interpretation. In the first instance, Lord Krishna's statement comes in the midst of a discussion of four types of people who do not surrender to God, and four types who do. Krishna's point in the verse we have cited [7.19] is that surrender to Krishna is the symptom and proof that one is actually in knowledge, after many lifetimes of seeking the truth. In fact, the learned one who realizes that Krishna is everything is one of the four classes of men who surrender to the Lord. We have already explained at length the many verses in chapter seven, preceeding 7.19, which claim that K???a is the source of everything, and that He is identical with the opulent features of this world in the sense that such items, composed of the inferior modes of nature (sattva, rajas, tamas) are but expansions of the Lord's power. And the verses following 7.19 emphasize that it is Krishna alone who is to be worshiped, and not other gods. In other words, the topic under discussion is nothing but surrender to Krishna, and an elaborate ontological explanation in this very chapter has clarified that Krishna is to be identified with the wonderful things of this world only in the sense that such items rest on Him. It was explicitly stated that Krishna is simultaneouly aloof, that He is ?not in them.? [na tv aha? te?u te mayi 7.12] Similarly, Arjuna declares to Krishna: ?You are everything because You entirely possess everything.? [sarvam sam?pno?i tato 'si sarvam] Arjuna's statement is in response to the cosmic vision of God, in which Krishna devours all the universe, and all beings are subdued by the Lord's omnipotent feature of time. That is, in the context of God's absolute domination of the subordinate living beings, Arjuna utters His prayer, ?You are everything!? Still, it is worthwhile to take a closer look at the somewhat complex ontology operating here, and Krishna Himself provides us such a focused metaphysical analysis in the ninth chapter of the G?t? [9.4-10] where He intentionally speaks in apparently contradictory language: ?By Me in My unmanifested form, I pervade this whole universe. All beings are situated in Me, but I am not situated in them. The beings are also not situated in me. Behold My mystic power. I am the maintainer of all beings; I am not also situated in them. My self is the source of the beings. Just as the great wind, which goes everywhere, is situated in the sky, similarly understand that all beings are situated in Me.? [9.4-6]3 Lord Krishna here makes several ontological distinctions between Himself, God, and the many living beings like ourselves: 1. Krishna states that He individually pervades the entire universe. There is no similar claim for any of the individual living beings. [9.4] 2. All beings are situated in Krishna, but He is not in them. [9.4] 3. Krishna is the maintainer of all beings, but not they of Him. [9.5] 4. Krishna is the source (bh?vana) of all beings, but not they of Him. [9.5] 5. Lord Krishna compares Himself to the sky, and the living beings to the air which moves within the sky but does not mix with it. [9.6] This metaphor is further developed at 13.3 wherein Krishna compares the sky to the soul which does not mix with the body. Krishna states at 13.3 that although the sky extends everywhere (sarva-gatam) because of its sublety (sauk?matv?t) it does not mix with anything, and hence nothing can taint it (nopalipyate). At 9.6, then, Krishna means to state that although the great winds blow throughout space or sky, the sky is never covered by the air, which is a grosser element in the traditional cosmology. By analogy, then, although God contains all living beings within His existence, because of His being superior, He can not be affected by the inferior qualities of the beings which He contains. Indeed, Krishna states that He pervades the universe in an unmanifest form (avyakta-m?rtin?), and the term avyakta here, "unmanifest", is clearly related to the concept of subtlety in 13.33. This sense of subtlety as a cause or condition of imperceptibility is explicity given at 13.6, where it is said that ?the Absolute is incomprehensible because of its subtlety.? [s?k?matv?t tad avij?eyam]. This very word s?k?matv?t, is given at 13.33, to mean "because of its subtlety". Thus the analogy of the sky and the air [9.6] is meant to explicate the same message given at 9.4-5: although Sr? Krishna is all-pervading, and although all beings live and exist within His existence, He is always distinct and superior, and is never affected by the inferior qualities of the living beings that He contains. Thus it is very difficult to mount anything like a serious argument for monism from the statements of the Bhagavad-g?t?. From govinda at MCSA.NET.MX Sun Mar 18 20:38:20 2001 From: govinda at MCSA.NET.MX (Radha-Govinda Mandir) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 14:38:20 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Krsna_in_the_Gita_n=C2=BA_5?= Message-ID: <161227068470.23782.1768485374116259172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 5. Krishna has spiritual form In the Bhagavad-g?t?, Lord Krishna stresses the personality of the Godhead as the highest feature of the Absolute Truth and therefore the goal of the yoga process. For example, at 8.8, Krishna states: ?One who is engaged in the practice of yoga, meditating with undeviating consciousness on the Supreme Divine Person, goes to that Supreme Person. One who constantly remembers Him as the primeval scholar, the steady ruler, smaller than the smallest, the creator of everything, as He whose inconceivable form is luminous like the sun and beyond darkness one who remembers Him thus attains to that Supreme Divine Person.?4 [8.8-10] Similarly, Arjuna declares Krishna to be the ?eternal divine person,? [puru?a? ???vata? divyam 10.12] and later he says ?I consider You the eternal Person.? [san?tanas tvam puru?o mato me 11.18] At this point it is good to recall the strict ontological rule which Krishna enunciated at the very beginning of His teaching, ?Of the termporary there is no real existence, and of the eternal there is no cessation.? [n?satao vidyate bh?vo n?bh?vo vidyate sata? 2.16] Thus when Arjuna declares Krishna to be the eternal person, it is understand that Krishna's personality has no beginning or end, and indeed Arjuna states that Krishna is ajam, "unborn" [10.12]. It is signficant that Krishna states that not only He Himself, but in fact individual souls in general are beginningless: ?Know that both material nature and the individual person [puru?a] are beginningless. It is the accidental qualities and transformations of prak?ti that come into being.? [prak?tim puru?a? caiva viddhy an?d? ubh?v api, vik?r??? ca gu???? caiva viddhi prak?ti-sambhav?n]. So the san?tana-puru?a, the "eternal person", can not refer to a material form. As Krishna is an eternal, supreme, divine person, it is natural that He has an abode, and that is also described within the G?t?: ?The sun does not brighten it, nor the moon, nor fire, and going to it, they never return ---that is My supreme abode.? [na tad bh?sayate s?ryo na ?a???ka na p?vakah yad gatv? na nivartante tad dh?ma paramam mama 15.6] Similarly: ?It is said to be unmanifest and indestructible, and they call it the supreme destination. Having achieved it, they never return from My supreme abode.? [avyakto 'k?ara ity uktas tam ?hu? parama? gatim, yam pr?pya na nivartante tad dh?ma paramam mama 8.21] According to the Bhagavad-g?t?, the supreme personality of the Godhead is not merely myth, poetry or symbol, but rather spiritually tangible form and being, which is avyakta, unmanifest, only to the materially conditioned soul. Thus in the seventh chapter of the G?t?, Lord Krishna says, ?The unintelligent think that I am unmanifest, but that I have become a manifest, visible person, for they do not know My supreme nature which is inexhaustible and of incomparable excellence. [avyakta? vyaktim ?pannam manyante m?m abuddhaya?, param bh?vam aj?nanto mam?vyayam anuttamam 7.24] So important is this ?loka that we shall examine its key terms in detail. Lord K???a says that ?the unintelligent (abuddhaya?, plural of abuddhi, literally "those without intelligence") think (manyante) that I am avyaktam, unmanifest, but that I have become vyaktim, a manifest person.? The term avyaktam contrasts with the term vyaktim not only in the sense of the invisibile versus the visible, but also in contrasting a type of impersonal existence with a personal, individual reality. This sense of avyakta as impersonal, in contrast to the personal, is clearly evident at 12.1, and 12.3, and is also strengthened by the fact that here at 7.24, Lord Krishna contrasts avyaktam not with its immediate antonym vyaktam, "the manifest", but with the cognate vyaktim which more specifically indicates a manifest, individual person. Krishna says, then, ?The unintelligent think that I am impersonal and unmanifest, but that I have become a distinct, visible, individual person. They think this because they do not know my supreme, transcendental nature (param bh?vam) ? The param bh?vam, or "supreme nature" mentioned here is clearly the transcendental nature of the vyakti, or visible personal identity of K???a. It is diffcult to find another straightforward reading of this simple Sanskrit sentence. Lord Krishna's statement at 7.24 contrasts in a curious way with another use of the terms avyakta and vyakti at 8.18. There the Lord says, ?On the coming of the day (of Brahm?) all the individual beings come forth from the unmanifest, and on the coming of the night (of Brahm?), they are merged into the very place that is called the avyakta.? [avyakt?d vyaktaya? sarv?? prabhavanty ahar-?game, r?try-?game pral?yante tatraiv?vyakta-sa?j?ake 8.18] There are several significant features of this statement. Krishna uses the term vyaktaya?, the plural nominative form of vyakti?, and He says that all these vyaktis (my translation: all the individual beings) come forth from the unmanifest, avyakta, during the day of Brahm?. Since there is clearly a plurality of living beings mentioned here (and everywhere else in the G?t?), and since the term vyakti is here used to describe the beings at their specific stage of manifestation, coming forth on the coming of Brahm?'s day, it is clear in this context also that the term vyakti refers to an individual, manifest person, active within the world. Because one might tend to associate the term with the conditioned souls visible in this world, Krishna takes care to emphasize, when using the word to refer to Himself, that He does not, as do the conditioned souls, acquire a visible form upon coming to this world. Indeed the entire argument at 7.24 is that Lord Krishna does not assume His visible, personal form at all, but that His personal form is His superior nature, param bh?vam. Indeed, Krishna explains almost immediately after this, at 8.20, that the param bh?vam [inflected here as paro bh?va? since it shifts to the nominative from the accusative] is beyond the avyakta, the unmanifest from which the ordinary souls come forth on the coming of Brahm?'s day. Although Lord Krishna describes that paro bh?va? as being a superior avyakta or unmanifest realm, we find at 8.21 that here the paro bh?va? actually refers to the Lord's supreme abode. In other words, although His supreme abode is not manifest to ordinary persons, Krishna descends from His abode so that we can see Him as He is. This is the highest sense of avat?ra. The same term paro bh?va? has been used at 7.24 to indicate the spiritual nature of Krishna's personality, and at 8.20, the term is used specifically to describe the spiritual quality of the Lord's abode, but in either case, it is clear that the paro bh?va? at 8.20, or indeed the param bh?vam mentioned at 7.24, are beyond the avyakta mentioned at 8.18, as the status from which conditioned souls, also called vyaktis, come forth to manifest in this world. The conclusion is that the G?ta affirms the spiritual personality of the Lord, which is not a mere symbol, incarnation, way of getting at, etc. etc., an unmanifest impersonal Absolute Truth. But it is not by mental speculation that the personal form of the Lord is to be known. Thus the term vyaktim is used also at 10.14, when Arjuna says to Krishna, ?Neither the gods nor the demons, O blessed Lord, know Thy personality (vyaktim). [na hi te bhagavan vyaktim vidur dev? na d?nav?? 10.14] Rather, ?It is by devotion that one knows Me in truth, as I actually am.? [bhakty? m?m abhij?n?ti y?v?n ya? c?smi tattvata? 18.55] The fact that Lord Krishna is ultimately to be known as the Supreme Person is made even more explicit at the beginning of the twelfth chapter. Arjuna asks the Lord, ?Who are the greatest knowers of yoga--- those who are Your devotees, always engaged in worshiping You, or those who worship the unperishing unmanifest? [eva? satata-yukt? ye bhakt?s tv?m paryup?sate, ye c?py ak??ram avyakta? te??? ke yoga-vittam?? 12.1] Here Arjuna places in direct competition personal devotion to Krishna and worship of the avyakta, the unmanifest feature of the Absolute. Krishna at once replies, ?Always engaged in fixing their minds on Me, those who worship Me with transcendental faith I consider to be most intimately united with Me in yoga.? [mayy ?ve?ya mano ye m?? nitya-yukt? up?sate, ?raddhay? parayopet?s te me yuktamatam? mat?? 12.2] Both in Arjuna's original question [12.1], and in Lord Krishna's reply, the personal pronoun indicating Krishna (Arjuna's tv?m, You, and Krishna's m?m, Me) are used to indicate the personal concept of God, in contrast to the impersonal unmanifest. The artificiality of the impersonal path for the eternal individual soul is made clear at 12.5, wherein Lord Krishna says that in contrast to the path of bhakti, which is susukham kartum, ?very joyful to perform? [9.2], the path of meditation on the unmanifest, the ineffable, all-pervading absolute is just the opposite, it is du?kham, or miserable to perform. Indeed, Krishna calls the impersonal path kle?o 'dhikataras, or ?exceedingly troublesome? [12.5]. Krishna also states: ?Because I inhere in a human-like body, foolish people disrespect Me, for they do not understand My transcendental nature.? [avaj?nanti m?m m??h?? m?nu??? tanum ??ritam, param bh?vam aj?nanto 9.11]. It is certainly noteworthy here that Lord K???a repeats the exact same words as in 7.24, i.e. ?not knowing My transcendental nature? [param bh?vam aj?nanto 7.24, 9.11]. Thus the unintelligent [abuddhaya?] who think that K???a has assumed His personal form, are compared to the foolish [m??h??] who disrespect K???a because He appears in a human-like body. Krishna states at 9.11 that He inheres in a human-like body. The Sanskrit phrase is m?nu??m (human-like) tanum (a body) ??ritam (I) have inhered in. That which is inherent is essential and intrinsic, and this notion that the Lord originally manfests in a spiritual form is also indicated elsewhere in the G?t?. Let us turn to chapter four of the G?t? wherein Lord K???a elaborately describes His descent into this world. Lord Krishna states: ?Although I am unborn and My Self never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all beings, utilizing My own energy I appear by My own potency. Whenever there is a decline of dharma, O Bh?rata, and a prominent rise of adharma (irreligion), at that time I manifest My Self. To deliver the pious, and to destroy the evil-doers, and to establish dharma, I appear in every age. [4.6-8]6 ? From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Mar 18 13:55:13 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 14:55:13 +0100 Subject: SV: University and Church Message-ID: <161227068444.23782.5720336169867959302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 17. mars 2001 17:15: > Don't know whether the Bible says Hebrew as mankind's first language. > But definitely there was a big movement among European intelligentsia > to deny Hebrew as the first language by IE scholars of Europe once the > European and Sanskrit connection was established. > > Maurice Olender, The Languages of Paradise: Race, Religion, and Philology > in the Nineteenth Century, Harvard University Press, 1992. Thanks for the reference! Looks the sort of book I love, it is now on my list of books to buy! When this issue popped up, I assumed from the use of tenses in the original email that the writer was referring to *modern* attitudes. However, it is important to remember that we are dealing with at least three periods: 1. The 19th century. With a few exceptions, practically everything done at that time is now obsolete or superceded. For Indological, political and a number of other purposes, the 19th century is an intellectual museum where the ideas are as outmoded as the horse taxi. (Of course, some 19th century ideas have survived, but one should always check and see if the idea in question is not simply an archaeological artifact before discussing it). 2. The first half of the 20th century. Much work done in Indology and on other subjects is still valid (more or less), but beware of ideological stuff. 3. The period since World War II. Here you will find a lot of relevant material, and although some of it is becoming obsolete, most of the views and analyses debated as valid subjects of discussion in the West is found in this period. > Usually European ideas reach Indian subcontinent after a time lag. The problem with India is not simply that things reach India late, but that ancient, colonial Indology is presented to the Indian public as if there had been no development. In fact, colonial Indology has been instrumentalized in certain quarters for political reasons, and that partly precludes serious information on modern Western Indology from being communicated to the Indian public. In all political propaganda, things have to be kept simple and repetitive. If you introduce nuances and contradictory evidence, then the propaganda ceases to be effective. (People start thinking instead of reacting). The situation is of course not completely hopeless, but books and papers written and published in the West will usually be out of reach for most Indians. The answer would be to publish in India, and I believe more Western scholars are doing this now. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From bvi at AFN.ORG Sun Mar 18 19:56:28 2001 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 14:56:28 -0500 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068453.23782.2647788005513486857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:08 PM 3/17/01 -0500, Swami Tyagananda wrote: >I feel a careful study of the Gita makes it pretty obvious that >Krishna's purpose was not really to teach Arjuna how to fight the war but >what Arjuna's "duty" was at that time and how he should carry out his >"duty." In the historical context, it so happened that at that time >Arjuna's duty was to fight for a just and righteous cause. > If Gita taught war, it would have no relevance to most of us today >who are unlikely to go and fight a war. But generations of practitioners >can testify to its continued relevance and importance in showing us a way >when we are confused about the nature of our duty and the best way of >carrying it out. That, at least, is my understanding of the Gita. In Bg. 8.7 Krishna recommmends duty be carried out while remembering Him, with activities offered to Him and intelligence fixed on Him. In Bg. 15.15 Krishna says the Vedas are meant to understand Him alone. In Bg. 18.55 Krishna says He can be known only by devotional service (bhakti) and when one knows Him in that way one can enter the kingdom of God. In Bg. 18.65 Krishna says the most confidential part of knowledge is to fix one's mind on Him, become His devotee, worship Him, and offer homage to Him. It seems to me, devotion to Krishna is what is stressed in Bhagavad-gita and a nice translation of the Gita which captures its devotional mood is the one written by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada called Bhagavad-gita As It Is. His influence has resulted in many thousands of people taking a serious interest both in devotion to Krishna and in Bhagavad-gita. Best wishes, Chris Beetle From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 18 16:59:57 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 16:59:57 +0000 Subject: Brahma/Brahmin Deer skin seat and dress Message-ID: <161227068447.23782.8895396971324269063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the krishna ajinam used in vedic sacrifices refers to the leather of an antelope? Is it used as a seating for the sacrificial priests? Is the same deer skin tied to yajna-upavita? ---------------- Why does Brahma/brahmins sit upon and wear a dress made of deer skin while doing sacrifices? What kind of deer is it?, Indian art depicts Brahma's upper garments with a black antelope. Thanks for your help, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 18 23:10:13 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 18:10:13 -0500 Subject: Question for the Kashmir Shaivism experts Message-ID: <161227068460.23782.17483050490544948056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I need the source of the following verse quoted in translation in Mark Dyczkowski's "The Doctrine of Vibration",SUNY 1987 page 63. But I'm confused by his footnote to the verse. "Nothing perceived is independent of perception and perception differs not from the perceiver, therefore the universe is nothing but the perceiver [himself]." With the following footnote: I.P.V.V., I, p. 710, saMvitprakAza quoted in M.M. p. 20 and Sp.Pra. p.114: jJAtRtaiva uktA . Where: I.P.V.V. = IzvarapratyabhijJAvivRtivimarzinI M.M. = mahArthamaJjarI Sp.Pra. = spandapradIpikA I think that what he's saying is that the verse is quoted in the mahArthamaJjarI as coming from the saMvitprakAza. But the verse is quoted in the spandapradIpikA and attributed there to the Atmasaptati . See Mark Dyczkowski's "The Stanza's on Vibration",SUNY,1992, page 164 where the verse occurs in his translation of spandapradIpikA. Is it the case that: 1) The verse comes from the Atmasaptati and is wrongly attributed to saMvitprakAza in the mahArthamaJjarI . or 2) The verse comes from saMvitprakAza and is wrongly attributed to Atmasaptati in the spandapradIpikA . Note that Dyczowski in his notes to his translation of spandapradIpika in "The Stanza's on Vibration" indicates an occurance where another verse quoted in spandapradIpika is attributed in that text to the Atmasaptati but is in fact from saMvitprakAza . See page 143 "The Stanza's on Vibration" and footnotes 47 and 48 on that page. He attributes this error to the fact that chapter II of saMvitprakAza is called AtmasaMstuti . See page 288 under section "AtmasaMstuti" . Also do we know anything about the Atmasaptati? Who its author is or if its quoted elsewhere? Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sun Mar 18 19:19:46 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 19:19:46 +0000 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068450.23782.645077811239071689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a second issue that I must raise with regard to criticisms like those given by Doniger and Kosambi. Doniger or Kosambi would be justified in saying that the Gita is an incitement to war, if they could find many historical cases in which the Gita was actually used to justify or incite war. If they had such examples, they would have a justifiable opinion based on the historical use of the text, even if the actual meaning of the text is something different. But no such evidence is forthcoming, as far as I am aware. And a double standard becomes apparent. For instance, I am reading "The Political Language of Islam" by the Arabicist, Bernard Lewis (Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies, Princeton). Here is some of what he says about jihad : "In the Quran and still more in the Traditions ...[jihad] has usually been understood as meaning 'to wage war'. The great collections of hadith all contain a section devoted to jihad, in which the military meaning predominates. The same is true of the classical manuals of sharia law. There were some who argued that jihad should be understood in a moral and spiritual, rather than a military sense.....The great majority of classical theologians, jurists and traditionists, however understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense, and have examined and expounded it accordingly." "According to Muslim teaching, jihad is one of the basic commandments of the faith, an obligation imposed on all Muslims by God, through revelation. In an offensive war, it is an obligation of the Muslim community as a whole (fard kifaya); in a defensive war, it becomes a personal obligation of every adult male Muslim (fard ayn)... "This obligation is without limit of time or space. It must continue until the whole world has either accepted the Islamic faith or submitted to the power of the Islamic state." etc. If I trust the scholarship of Bernard Lewis, then here is are injunctions that are far more direct incitements to war than Krishna's call to Arjuna. Moreover, the historical case that these were interpreted as such is extremely strong. The historical case that Muslim rulers used the Quranic jihad as a justification for the wars they waged, though not discussed here, is extremely strong. (One merely has to read through the surviving proclamations of the various rulers.) That various attempts at deconstruction have been made to show that political and economic objectives were being masked by religious ones is besides the point. That the religious text was used (or misused) is a fact. The point is that Bernard Lewis, as far as I have read, nowhere calls the Quran an incitement to war. The point is that anyone who said such a thing would be branded a bigot, a purveyor of hatred, (and if a Hindu) a Hindu reactionary/retrogressive/fanatic/fascist. Yet with far less justification, Doniger and Kosambi are said to be presenting scholarly views about the Gita being an incitement to war, We may disagree with these opinions, but that we ought to respect them. Why ? Why not apply the same standard to everyone ? Cite to me one scholar, the equivalent of a Doniger or Kosambi who in a public lecture to a general audience says about the Quran what either of these say about the Gita, gets cited in a wide-circulation newspaper, and has the entire academic community making excuses for them, and I will hold my peace. -Arun Gupta From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Mar 18 22:59:54 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 22:59:54 +0000 Subject: University and Church Message-ID: <161227068457.23782.170413043329555587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For hundreds of years the story of the Tower of Babel was sacrosanct, and with it,as a corollary, the belief that Hebrew was the original language of mankind. With the discovery of Sanskrit (1785 AD) by European scholars, custodians of the Pentateuch were alarmed by the prospect that Sanskrit would bring down the Tower of Babel. To anticipate the danger, they pilloried Sanskrit as a priestly fraud, a kind of pidgin classic concocted by Brahmins from Greek and Latin elements.Tower of Babel was huge ziqqurat called E-temen-an-ki. In the highest story there was a great shrine. To the south of Etemenanki was a complex of large and lofty buildings and vast courtyards. There was the temple(E-sag-ila) of Marduk, the tutelary god of Babylon and the supreme deity of the Babylonian pantheon since the reign of Hammurabi (Amrephel).There used to annual celebrations of the Marriage of the God.To me it looks like the temple complex of the south Indian style where the entrance Gopura is sometimes taller than the main sanctuary of the deity. When Cyrus the great conquered Babylon,all temples and deities were saved intact. Cyrus the great prostrated in front of Marduk and burnt incense.He promised Babylonians that their gods were his gods too.He made Jews free and gave them money to build their temple on their return. Cyrus the great knew the ancient world and respected the ancient traditions.Cyrus the Great was Persian and not Turk.This is the difference between Arya and Wolf. Thanks. From mudra at INCH.COM Mon Mar 19 04:16:29 2001 From: mudra at INCH.COM (venantius j pinto) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 01 23:16:29 -0500 Subject: expert needed on Kristapurana of Thomas Stephens, S.J. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068474.23782.3340408396300918369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Allen, Try the Thomas Stephens Konknni Kendr at Alto Porvorim, Goa at the address below. http://www.goacom.com/tskk/ Perhaps you could also try Francisco Alves, currently at alvesf at georgetown.edu On a contemporary vein a Rev. Dr William Barboza had recently worked at the TSKK to revise his translation of the Konknni Bible prior to publication - to be put out by the Mangalore Diocese. I have a feeling that you will find help at the TSKK. venantius j pinto Allen W. Thasher wrote: >Does anyone know anyone working on the texts of the Kristapurana or >other Konkani works of Thomas Stephens, S.J.? > >Is Shantaram Bandelu who edited the Kristapurana back in 1956 still >alive? > >Thanks, > >Allen > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. Venantius J Pinto 664 West 163rd Street, #57 New York, NY 10032-4527 Tel/Fax: 212.928.3955 mudra at inch.com From ghezziem at TIN.IT Mon Mar 19 08:02:46 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 08:02:46 +0000 Subject: R: e-mail address of Frederick M. Asher Message-ID: <161227068477.23782.4380945345311226513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for my shamelessness, dear Berliner colleague! I have read Your message, and I beg You a favour. In August I shall come in Berlin for the ICAS 2, but all the hotels signalised by the organising committee are too expensive for me and my husband. How can I find a cheap Gasthof or a double room in a private house? Many thanks in advance, and sorry again for the annoyance, sincerely Yours Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Juergen Neuss >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: e-mail address of Frederick M. Asher >Data: Sab, 17 mar 2001 19:59 > > Dear list members, > could anybody please help me with the e-mail address of Frederick M. Asher? > Thanks very much > > Juergen Neuss, M.A. > Freie Universit?t Berlin > Institut f?r Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte > K?nigin-Luise-Str. 34 a > 14195 Berlin > Germany From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 19 17:52:35 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 09:52:35 -0800 Subject: Reading Indus script as Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <002601c0ae5c$2f6a6520$db9ea8cf@David> Message-ID: <161227068493.23782.7086288811231662098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for giving Prof. Witzel's review and related web locations of Madhusudan Mishra's recent assertion that Indus writing is Sanskrit. Also, is Prof. Mishra's work in cyberspace? Thanks, SM --- David Salmon wrote: > > I don't believe the Bible does say so. Please cite your source. [...] > > No doubt some ignoramus would assume so, and has at one time or another, but > I fail to see why ignorance should be seen as a "very American" trait. > Kindly cite your source. :-) Actually, it--this language theory--sounds > Indian in origin. I -have- heard it asserted by some (Pakistani) Muslims > that Arabic is God's language, and Michael Witzel recently reviewed a book > by Dr. Madhusudan Mishra which purports to show the development of the holy > Vedic language from primitive utterances in a Sarasvati-based Eden, "They > were godly people who spoke little words with profound meaning." Or prehaps > the assumption that our gods are just like us is a more universal > phenomenon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 19 16:41:34 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 11:41:34 -0500 Subject: remarks on interpretation of scripture and Gita etc Message-ID: <161227068483.23782.8910495455665468686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members: - I just wanted to clarify my remarks on the "scientific" study of religion that I made in response to one of Dr. Arun Gupta's postings. - I think that Dr. Gupta raised an important issue in one of his previous postings concerning the interpretation of texts. I have seen this issue come up on other lists, yet it has never been adequately addressed on the lists that I have subscribed to. - People often question scholarly interpretations of religious ideas by saying that a knowledge of Sanskrit etc. is not enough to qualify; in addition, to be an expert, someone should also have a personal "experience" of the doctrines talked about in the text. - The usual response is that, as scholars, we should take an "objective" or "dispassionate" stance, or, we should stay distant enough so as not to get personally involved with our subject. It is only in this way that we can assure biases from not creeping in and influencing our interpretations. In addition, these types of biases are often attributed to followers of a particular religion. - However, I think that there is a middle ground between the extreme scholarly distance of "objectivity" or "dispassion" and the extreme "passion" of the type of theologian who puts forth theories in order to justify his or her particular slant on things. In my opinion, this middle ground is what we should strive for. - I would disagree with Dr. Arun Gupta on one thing: I think that "experience" may be too much to ask for. Also, experience is not very easily verifiable. I would propose two slightly more easy-to-obtain-and-verify criteria. - a) Is the scholar also putting him or herself in the position of admitting that they are "learning something" from the tradition in addition to just "learning about" it? (The words in quotes come from my former late MA advisor, Wilhelm Halbfass). - b) Is the scholar in question willing to admit ignorance and even wonder at the ideas expressed in these texts: i.e. step down a little in his/her estimation of their own expertise on religious matters? Sincerely, Lynken Ghose _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 19 17:16:15 2001 From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 12:16:15 -0500 Subject: remarks on interpretation of scripture and Gita etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068490.23782.8574529874262853413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:41 AM 3/19/01 -0500, Lynken Ghose wrote: >- However, I think that there is a middle ground between the extreme >scholarly distance of "objectivity" or "dispassion" and the extreme >"passion" of the type of theologian who puts forth theories in order to >justify his or her particular slant on things. In my opinion, this middle >ground is what we should strive for. > Greetings. I appreciate the "middle ground" idea and feel that this is the best that can be hoped for specially with regard to those texts/matters which deal with the themes that transcend the intellect. The insights arrived at as a result of a supersensuous or mystic experience cannot always be verified or judged merely through the tools of logic and textual analysis. The transcendent experience may not contradict reason but it is often inaccessible or unintelligible to it. Wisdom lies in realizing that reason can take us far but not far enough. There are matters whose truth can be verified only through personal experience. So long as the possibility of that experience is not denied to any person, it is unreasonable to dismiss it only through intellectual tools. Swami Tyagananda Vedanta Society, Boston From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 19 19:23:42 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 14:23:42 -0500 Subject: remarks on interpretation of scripture and Gita etc Message-ID: <161227068497.23782.10210471616288831442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I like to extend the mathematics parallel mentioned by Prof. Arun Gupta. It is not entirely true to say that a non-mathematician may not understand general relativity. We will discuss this at the end. Now, how do mathematicians themselves study their own subject? (I request mathematicians on this list to help.) When they study algebraic spaces like Abel spaces or Jacobi spaces, do they really conceptualize them in their mind, or do they just juggle some symbols on a piece of paper like someone who knows square root only as a button on the calculator? I suppose it is not the latter. If some conceptualization is involved, the next question is do they perceive those spaces personally as if they are experiencing a virtual reality show? Or do they merely conceptualize them without a 'picture' in mind, in the sense, without using their sensory nervous systems? I suppose both these cases are equivalent. It is just a transformation of language from concept level to sensory level or vice versa. Now, the word 'passion' has its implications: positive or negative. Negative: The presence of passion, arguing from gIta itself, is rajoguNa and inferior to dispassion. So I would argue a dispassionate study is actually greater than a passionate study! Now a dispassionate study is an even greater challenge if one belongs to an entirely different faith. Positive: Passion happens when the concepts (such as Abel spaces etc) interact with the physical body and mind. The subjects (mathematics or vedAnta) do not stand in vacuum. They are supported by a live combination of body/mind, and this combination is soluble in the very subjects they support. So the presence of passion is actually an evidence of an interchange of information, either from subject to object or from object to subject. (Don't ask me which of the entities (mathematics/vedAnta or body/mind) takes on the role of subject and which of them takes on the role of object:-) It is the place where subject and object ends meet. How do non-mathematicians understand relativity? If one subject meets the object, then the object can be retranslated out to any "other" subject as well! Hence it is the place where different subjects meet. As a corollary it is also a place where different objects meet. (Sounds new age?) Radha-Govinda Mandir: Thanks for the precious rare-to-find dvaita assertion over advaita. We will wait for the personified Krishna. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 19 23:16:29 2001 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 15:16:29 -0800 Subject: remarks on interpretation of scripture and Gita etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068500.23782.10190908310066090223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lynken, Please write to me at janbrz at microtec.net as I only visit this mailbox rarely. I only use it for these lists and not for personal correspondence. As far as Rupa Goswami's books are concerned, what exactly are you looking for? Since I have most of them, I haven't really been on the lookout for who is publishing what. The most prolific current source of published texts in the Gaudiya tradition is Hari Das Shastri, Purana Kalidaha, Vrindavan, Mathura, U.P. I don't know if there is any faster way of reaching them. Would you mind sending me the email address in Vermont again? I may look into that. Thanks for thinking of me. Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Mon Mar 19 23:59:20 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 15:59:20 -0800 Subject: Interpreting the Gita Message-ID: <161227068504.23782.7585807508040193022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta wrote: > > The point is that Bernard Lewis, as far as I have read, nowhere calls > the Quran an incitement to war. The point is that anyone who said such > a thing would be branded a bigot, a purveyor of hatred, (and if a Hindu) > a Hindu reactionary/retrogressive/fanatic/fascist. > > Yet with far less justification, Doniger and Kosambi are said to be > presenting scholarly views about the Gita being an incitement to war, > We may disagree with these opinions, but that we ought to respect them. > Why ? > > Why not apply the same standard to everyone ? Cite to me one scholar, > the equivalent of a Doniger or Kosambi who in a public lecture to a > general audience says about the Quran what either of these say about > the Gita, gets cited in a wide-circulation newspaper, and has the entire > academic community making excuses for them, and I will hold my peace. > > -Arun Gupta > > I will grant you some of this, although there are a great many persons who have described Islam, which means "peace," as I recall, in those terms, and there must have been a few scholars amongst them. The last well-known "scholar"? who attempted something like that was Rushdie, if I remember. Yes, scholars can be intimidated. They can be scared off from even wanting anything to do with a controversial subject, which might be another reason why funding for research and study into these kinds of subjects is hard to come by. That is why I speak up, perhaps. I am retired. Let me ask: Would not your opinion, as voiced, be viewed as intimidating (if not intended to intimidate) by craven and lowly persons still on the tenure track and and likely to cause them to fear to voice their own views, as I am quite sure Prof. Doniger is not? Is it good that any teacher should be intimidated from speaking his or her mind, especially if on an American campus? As for Prof. Doniger in particular, are teachers of and about the Gita customarily also able to do the same concerning the Quran? Cut the perfessor a little slack this time. The difficulties an American teacher of Islamic studies must face these days (are there any in the group, or are "we" too antediluvian?) must be equally horrific. IMHO. David From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 19 17:05:28 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 17:05:28 +0000 Subject: remarks on interpretation of scripture and Gita etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068486.23782.10264792638246816339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Lynken Ghose's interesting clarifications, I would like to add the concept of privacy. I hold certain beliefs, some of them only vague or imperfectly articulated, which are very close to my sense of self, and which I have no wish to share with people outside my family. I think that it should be possible to be a private person and still be a fully-functioning scholar. I mean this in the sense that one does not be need to bare one's soul in public in order to deal very professionally and adequately with historical and cultural questions questions. It is possible to point to cases where personal faith obtrudes into matters of interpretation. This is often said of Zaehner's tr. of the Bhagavadgita. However, in that particular case, I find his tr. is actually richer and more profound because Zaehner took religious matters very seriously at a personal level. Yes, to some extent one can say that, for instance, his "buddhi" = "soul" may seem to stretch a point, but his arguments for this equation (in the gita) are very cogent. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Mon Mar 19 11:36:48 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 17:06:48 +0530 Subject: doha by rahim Message-ID: <161227068480.23782.12400889987079773946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a small book on Rahim, written by Vijayendra Snatak,and published by Sahitya Akademi,New Delhi,1990. It contains the following couplet by Rahim: Ochhon kaam barhey karen,to na barhai hoye Jyon Rahim Hanumant ko, Giridhar kahe na koye. Is the first line correct? From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Tue Mar 20 01:27:05 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 17:27:05 -0800 Subject: Reading Indus script as Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227068507.23782.5021716189887510943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oh, Professor Witzel, of course! And they told me it was quite someone else who used this pseudonym! ;-) Your review is at http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/. Dr. Mishra has a website at www.indusscript.net. I haven't surveyed the site yet. This will take me over my limit for the day, I fear, depending on when they start the clock running. I suppose the machine would work on GMT. But at least it is short. I'll send it again if it's given the chop. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swaminathan Madhuresan" To: Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 9:52 AM Subject: Reading Indus script as Sanskrit > Thanks for giving Prof. Witzel's review and related web locations > of Madhusudan Mishra's recent assertion that Indus writing is Sanskrit. > Also, is Prof. Mishra's work in cyberspace? > > Thanks, > SM > > From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 20 03:19:59 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 19:19:59 -0800 Subject: doha by rahim In-Reply-To: <002601c0b068$e26c2740$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227068510.23782.458734023941704365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > There is a small book on Rahim, written by > Vijayendra Snatak,and published by Sahitya > Akademi,New Delhi,1990. It contains the following > couplet by Rahim: > > Ochhon kaam barhey karen,to na barhai hoye > Jyon Rahim Hanumant ko, Giridhar kahe na koye. > > > Is the first line correct? dear mr rk the first line is not correct,it is not meeting with the statement of second line.But the person who wrought ,had gone long back,so who will there to correct it? ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 20 04:15:45 2001 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 01 20:15:45 -0800 Subject: Apologies In-Reply-To: <20010319231629.13474.qmail@web9102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068512.23782.15292761260621722379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My miserable apologies. I have seen people do this so many times and never thought I would have to do it myself one day. AARGH. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 20 14:13:10 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 06:13:10 -0800 Subject: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068519.23782.9683676995542983241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For a review of a book (book author: Jeff Kripal) http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITvishnuframeset.htm -------------------------------- >?From RISA-L list: Subject: Two Responses from Jeff Kripal From: william garlington Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 20:49:35 -0800 (PST) > List members might be interested in the following responses from Jeff Kripal (who is not a current member of risa-l) concerning the criticisms leveled at _Kali's Child_. The first, which is more personal and confessional in nature, is entitled "Secret Talk : The Politics of Scholarship in Hindu Tantrism," while the second, "Textuality, Sexuality, and the Future of the Past: A Response to Swami Tyagananda," is addressed directly to Swami Tyagananda's rebuttal and is more technical in orientation. Both can be accessed at: http://www.hds.harvard.edu/dpa/news/bulletin.html ---------------------------- Comments by Prof. Witzel on Indus Sanskrit: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-1.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rpeck at NECA.COM Tue Mar 20 13:00:54 2001 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 08:00:54 -0500 Subject: passion objectivity Message-ID: <161227068516.23782.7891928268202527463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology Members: in reference to Lynken Ghose and the responses to: >- However, I think that there is a middle ground between the extreme >scholarly distance of "objectivity" or "dispassion" and the extreme >"passion" of the type of theologian who puts forth theories in order to >justify his or her particular slant on things. In my opinion, this middle >ground is what we should strive for. Cannot the question be answered with the difference between dhAranA and dhyAna? I interpret dhArana as the application of an idea or concept onto an object of the mind or labeling it, DhyAna is the reverse, with the object projecting back its own nature. Bhadraiah's question of mathematics being a good example. This site seems to be a good example of the exchange of nAma or ideas and concepts. I question however, the acceptance of dhyAna. This seems ironic since India seemed to introduce this practice to the world. I have a suspicion that members of this groups reject the metaphysical nature of dhyAna because of the discipline of academia which requires the labeling of events or objects of the mind. Does not true scholarship require the mastery of DhArAna first, but then the search for DhyAna as a particular field is chosen? The results of dhyAna can then be subject to normal academic review that then separates it from pure belief. regards, Bob Peck rpeck at neca.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 20 10:03:19 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 10:03:19 +0000 Subject: Lectureship in Buddhist Studies (SOAS) (fwd) Message-ID: <161227068514.23782.3999390962576775697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:26:30 +0000 From: Ulrich Pagel SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES DEPARTMENT OF THE STUDY OF RELIGIONS Lectureship in Buddhist Studies Vacancy No: 01-33 5-Year Fixed Term UK pounds 20.75K - 33K p.a. inclusive Applications are invited for a newly established lectureship in Buddhist Studies within the Department of the Study of Religions. The appointee will be expected to teach courses in Buddhism in India and South East Asia, will have a proven record of excellence in research and will possess competence in relevant research languages. Applicants should have completed, or be close to completing, a PhD in a field relevant to the post. The lectureship is a 5-year fixed term appointment, to commence on 1 September 2001 or as soon as possible thereafter. The appointment will be made on Lecturer A, or Lecturer B scale, depending on qualifications and experience, plus London Allowance. Membership of USS will be available. Informal enquiries to Professor Brian Bocking, Department of the Study of Religions, bb at soas.ac.uk An application form and job description may be obtained from the Human Resources Department, School of Oriental and African Studies, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H 0XG (Tel: 020 7692 5359. Fax number: 020 7692 1496. E-mail address: personnel at soas.ac.uk). All applications must be sent directly to the HR Department. Overseas candidates may apply directly by letter supported by a full curriculum vitae and the names, addresses, telephone and fax numbers and email addresses of three referees. Short-listed applicants will be invited to meet members of the Department informally before the interview. Closing date: 4 May 2001 PS If you are interested in a job-description, you may also contact Ulrich Pagel (up1 at soas.ac.uk) who will send you that document via email as a Microsoft Word attachment. Note, however, that application forms are only available from Human Resources. _________________________ Dr. Ulrich Pagel Language and Religion in Tibet and Middle Asia Department of the Study of Religions School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG Great Britain tel: 0044 020 78 98 47 82 tel: 0044 020 77 13 07 23 (home) fax: 0044 020 78 98 47 79 e.mail: up1 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/Religions/home.html From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 20 15:11:29 2001 From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 10:11:29 -0500 Subject: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) In-Reply-To: <01C0B157.67770BA0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068524.23782.6783649114888053015.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:03 PM 3/20/01 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >I would like to point out, that although the contents of the book may be >offensive to many Hindus, it is only fair to say that critique of >Christianity by many secularized people (agnostics/atheists) in the West is >just as, or even more, offensive. Thus Hindus should not feel that they are >being treated differently from others. This is quite true and I fully support this statement. > They are just facing the brunt of >free speech in a society that values free speech higher than religion (one >of the reasons why the Rushdie affair had such devastating consequences in >many places and brought Muslims into such disrepute. The fact that the book >was insensitive to Muslim beliefs is of no consequence to the Western >person, who simply believes that people shouldn't be too sensitive about >their views and beliefs). Here I would like to add that it is not always a matter of only sensitivity/insensitivity. Just as often there are issues of misrepresentation and distortion (including mistranslation and misdocumentation as I discovered in my study of Kripal's book Kali's Child). Swami Tyagananda Vedanta Society, Boston From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Tue Mar 20 15:35:16 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 10:35:16 -0500 Subject: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) In-Reply-To: <01C0B157.67770BA0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068529.23782.5321071734517192882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: A perfectly valid observation, and I tend to agree with this. But there is an important difference: Most of the critiques of traditions/religions come from Western scholars/thinkers/commentators, expressing themselves in a Western language within a Western cultural matrix. In the Hindu context, however, these come most often from scholars/thinkers/commentators in a non-Hindu cultural matrix, who express themselves in the languages of the people who had for more than a century dominated the Hindu world politically, culturally, and economically. That is why, though offensive-to-a-tradition expositions are well within the norms of enlightened scholarly discussions, feelings of hurt and anger on the part of once-dominated/marginalized peoples tend to be harsh also. I would like to emphasize that I am not arguing for any restriction on free thought or speech, but am trying to understand and explain the phenomenon of cultural rage. There are/have been Hindu thinkers who engage(d) in criticism of their own culture/religion in Indian languages and within India. Responses to them within the Hindu world are of a different nature. V. V. Raman March 20, 2001 From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 20 16:04:21 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 11:04:21 -0500 Subject: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068531.23782.17485639737561946715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suppose the issue is also a distinction between serious and careless scholarship. When Prof. Wendy Doniger says "gIta is a dishonest book", what does it mean? Dishonesty is a complicated concept. Even honesty not straight forward. Good is good. Bad is not good. Honesty is to do good when one has the opportunity to do bad without being noticed. Dishonesty is appearing as doing good, but actually doing bad because nobody is seeing. 1. What is "good" in the case of kurukSetra war? 2. What "good" does gIta present to public? 3. What "bad" is it actually doing? 4. Where does it deceive public? 5. Who was cheated? gIta is a book crammed with concepts borrowed from all over the earlier literature. For theological matters, it has many conflicting views because on one hand it says yajna is perfectly good enough for reaching "param", and at a different place it says 'navedayajnAdhyanairnadAnair nacakriyAbhairnatapobhrugraiH". Readers have to live with it. For practical matters, all Hindu zAstrAs are saying perform your dharma. Why only gIta? All purANAs, and epic stories (rAmAyaNa etc) contain long discussions on what is the dharma and how to decide in different situations. Even rAma broke some rules to secure win for dharma. Even if gIta were not propounded by Krishna, rest of the zAstrAs would be saying the same thing - arjuna must fight. As for religious intimidation and frustration, it is common. I also faced it at an NYC religious study group, which was otherwise a great memory for me. Such things only go against the spirit of freedom and harden attitudes. Let us live with it. (This is my 15th post, see you all in April). Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Tue Mar 20 16:39:13 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 11:39:13 -0500 Subject: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068533.23782.17368606518910894756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm sure no one will seriously defend a right not to be offended. Nevertheless, claiming that this is an issue of "free" Western societies versus touchy Hindu/Muslim ones is overstating the case. Many European countries have laws in force to the present day, criminalising precisely the sort of "right not to be offended" on the basis of which Dr. Fosse assigns the entire Muslim population of the world (approximately 1.2 billion people) to "disrepute". I could mention the following articles of the Norwegian Penal Code: 95, which punishes insulting the flag of a foreign state with one year's imprisonment; 101, which punishes defaming the King or Regent with five years; 130, which punishes defaming public authorities with one year; 142, which prohibits blasphemy. With special reference to this question of blasphemy, since the West is claimed to be a society "that values free speech higher than religion", the UK has successfully prosecuted under the blasphemy laws as recently as 1979, and European Court of Human Rights upheld their use by the British Board of Film Classification as recently as 1996. And that's without even mentioning how Western societies punish free speech when it conflicts with commercial interest (more of a "sacred cow" than religion) as in the case of Jon Johansen. Free speech is an issue that all societies deal with. Caricatured stereotypes about "the Western person's" approach contrasted with the "disreputable" Muslim's serve only to distort the issue. Regards, Rohan. >I would like to point out, that although the contents of the book may be >offensive to many Hindus, it is only fair to say that critique of >Christianity by many secularized people (agnostics/atheists) in the West is >just as, or even more, offensive. Thus Hindus should not feel that they are >being treated differently from others. They are just facing the brunt of >free speech in a society that values free speech higher than religion (one >of the reasons why the Rushdie affair had such devastating consequences in >many places and brought Muslims into such disrepute. The fact that the book >was insensitive to Muslim beliefs is of no consequence to the Western >person, who simply believes that people shouldn't be too sensitive about >their views and beliefs). > >Lars Martin Fosse > > > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway >Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) >Email: lmfosse at online.no From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 20 19:54:00 2001 From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 11:54:00 -0800 Subject: India Office Library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068550.23782.12834970559945200024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, could anyone provide me with the postal address of India Office Library in London? And what are the possibilities of obtaining a xerox copy of a manuscript from there? Regards, Dr Marina Orelskaya c/o Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages University of Pune Ganeshkhind Road Pune 411007 Maharashtra India __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU Tue Mar 20 19:33:42 2001 From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 13:33:42 -0600 Subject: doha by rahim In-Reply-To: <20010320031959.9481.qmail@web2204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068542.23782.6984276819658409921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Actually, the text does meet the 13, 11 matra requirement of the Doha genre. Doha: The Doha is a rhyming couplet, each of the two lines containing 24 matras. Each line is further divided into two feet. The first and the third feet of a hoda have 13 matras each and the second the fourth feet contain 11 matras each. On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, SuryaPrakash Sharma wrote: > --- Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > > There is a small book on Rahim, written by > > Vijayendra Snatak,and published by Sahitya > > Akademi,New Delhi,1990. It contains the following > > couplet by Rahim: > > > > Ochhon kaam barhey karen,to na barhai hoye > > Jyon Rahim Hanumant ko, Giridhar kahe na koye. > > > > > > Is the first line correct? > dear mr rk > the first line is not correct,it is not meeting with > the statement of second line.But the person who > wrought ,had gone long back,so who will there to > correct it? > > > ===== > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Mar 20 19:08:13 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 14:08:13 -0500 Subject: Nazir Akbarabadi Workshop at Columbia Message-ID: <161227068540.23782.8461692180528400916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following even announcement is being posted to your listserv or mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact event organizers directly for any further information. The SARAI events calendar is at: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl/conferences.html ============ Nazir Akbarabadi: Poet of the People?* A workshop on the Urdu poet Vali Muhammad Nazir (ca 1735-1830) will be held at Columbia University's Southern Asian Institute on May 12, 2001, from 10-5. In the morning session, we will read a few short poems by Nazir: a self-portrait, a description of Holi, and Banjara-nama, among others. In the afternoon, we will consider the critical reception of Nazir and attempt to place him within his cultural context. Registered participants will receive in advance a packet of materials (texts in Urdu and in transliteration, literal translations, and critical evaluations). The morning session will be chaired by Fran Pritchett, and the afternoon by Aditya Behl. To register, please provide a mailing address to Phil Oldenburg (pko1 at columbia.edu) at the Southern Asian Institute. Lunch will be provided. The Institute is located on the 11th floor of the International Affairs Building, 420 West 118th Street, New York. *PANOPTICAL? PANTHEISTIC? PASSIONATE? PEDAGOGIC? PEDERASTIC? PERSIANATE? POETIC? POLITICAL? POPULAR? PORNOGRAPHIC? PROBLEMATIC? PROGRESSIVE? PROLIX? PROSAIC? From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Tue Mar 20 20:15:51 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 15:15:51 -0500 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? In-Reply-To: <3AB7B1CB.9C25790E@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227068552.23782.11882732056576712326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not many people/scholars would mind the statement that there are passages in the Gita which (at least from certain perspectives) may seem to be mutually inconsistent, even contradictory. Many may even agree with this statement which has been made by others before. But to call the work is unnecessarily provocative, attributing sinister, petty, and unethical motives to the author(s), in order to mislead the readers. This is what I (and perhaps many others) found offensive. V. V. Raman March 20, 2001 From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Mar 20 15:03:29 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 16:03:29 +0100 Subject: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068521.23782.4877498876137493633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan [SMTP:smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM] skrev 20. mars 2001 15:13: > For a review of a book (book author: Jeff Kripal) > http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITvishnuframeset.htm The author of the review makes the following remark: >One just has to replace the word karma with belief in immaculate >conception of Mary and rebirth with resurrection of Christ and dish it to >a Christian to see how offensive the tone of the article is. I would like to point out, that although the contents of the book may be offensive to many Hindus, it is only fair to say that critique of Christianity by many secularized people (agnostics/atheists) in the West is just as, or even more, offensive. Thus Hindus should not feel that they are being treated differently from others. They are just facing the brunt of free speech in a society that values free speech higher than religion (one of the reasons why the Rushdie affair had such devastating consequences in many places and brought Muslims into such disrepute. The fact that the book was insensitive to Muslim beliefs is of no consequence to the Western person, who simply believes that people shouldn't be too sensitive about their views and beliefs). Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From torella at UNIROMA1.IT Tue Mar 20 15:09:43 2001 From: torella at UNIROMA1.IT (raffaele torella) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 16:09:43 +0100 Subject: Question for the Kashmir Shaivism experts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068526.23782.5278874123809852513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear list members, > >I need the source of the following verse quoted in translation in Mark >Dyczkowski's "The Doctrine of Vibration",SUNY 1987 page 63. But I'm >confused by his footnote to the verse. > >"Nothing perceived is independent of perception and perception differs not >from the perceiver, therefore the universe is nothing but the perceiver >[himself]." > >With the following footnote: >I.P.V.V., I, p. 710, saMvitprakAza quoted in M.M. p. 20 and Sp.Pra. p.114: >jJAtRtaiva uktA . > >Where: I.P.V.V. = IzvarapratyabhijJAvivRtivimarzinI >M.M. = mahArthamaJjarI >Sp.Pra. = spandapradIpikA > >I think that what he's saying is that the verse is quoted in the >mahArthamaJjarI as coming from the saMvitprakAza. But the verse is quoted >in the spandapradIpikA and attributed there to the Atmasaptati . See Mark >Dyczkowski's "The Stanza's on Vibration",SUNY,1992, page 164 where the verse >occurs in his translation of spandapradIpikA. > >Is it the case that: >1) The verse comes from the Atmasaptati and is wrongly attributed to >saMvitprakAza in the mahArthamaJjarI . >or >2) The verse comes from saMvitprakAza and is wrongly attributed to >Atmasaptati in the spandapradIpikA . > >Note that Dyczowski in his notes to his translation of spandapradIpika in >"The Stanza's on Vibration" indicates an occurance where another verse >quoted in spandapradIpika is attributed in that text to the Atmasaptati but >is in fact from saMvitprakAza . See page 143 "The Stanza's on Vibration" >and footnotes 47 and 48 on that page. He attributes this error to the fact >that chapter II of saMvitprakAza is called AtmasaMstuti . See page 288 >under section "AtmasaMstuti" . > >Also do we know anything about the Atmasaptati? Who its author is or if its >quoted elsewhere? > >Many thanks in advance, > > >Harry Spier >371 Brickman Rd. >Hurleyville, New York >USA 12747 Dear Mr Spier, in fact Samvitprakasa and Atmasamstuti are most likely to be different titles of the same work. Or, to be more precise, Samvitprakasa is certainly the title of the first prakarana, which may have been then extended to the whole work. Each of the seven prakaranas which have come down to us probably also had a somewhat independent life of its own. The verse you mention is not found in the MSS of the SP, but it is to be noted that the second prakarana, the context of which this verse would fit very well, had, according to the number recorded by the Srinagar MS, nineteen verses more than the 60 that have come down to us. Thus it seems very probable that Atmasaptati is either a mistake for Atmasamstuti (which is the title of the second prakarana) or an approximate reference to the number of the verses (79) that composed it. With best wishes, Raffaele Torella -- Raffaele Torella, Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza" (fax:+39- 06-4451209) From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Mar 20 16:26:36 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 17:26:36 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068535.23782.691729272208297051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swami Tyagananda [SMTP:tyag at EARTHLINK.NET] skrev 20. mars 2001 16:11: > Here I would like to add that it is not always a matter of only > sensitivity/insensitivity. Just as often there are issues of misrepresentation > and distortion (including mistranslation and misdocumentation as I discovered > in my study of Kripal's book Kali's Child). I have read your critique, and as far as I can see (I do not know any Bengali), you seem to have a fairly strong case. But then you use the philological method :-). I would like to add that judging from the description in the review, (and provided the quotes are correct), this is not a book I would find extremely convincing. Psychoanalysis of God does not strike me as a sensible pursuit. For people who would like to criticize religion, there are a number of approaches. Psycho-babble is in my opinion not one of them. V.V. Raman wrote: >But there is an important difference: >Most of the critiques of traditions/religions come from Western >scholars/thinkers/commentators, expressing themselves in a Western language >within a Western cultural matrix. >In the Hindu context, however, these come most often from >scholars/thinkers/commentators in a non-Hindu cultural matrix, who express >themselves in the languages of the people who had for more than a century >dominated the Hindu world politically, culturally, and economically. >That is why, though offensive-to-a-tradition expositions are well within the >norms of enlightened scholarly discussions, feelings of hurt and anger on the >part of once-dominated/marginalized peoples tend to be harsh also. >I would like to emphasize that I am not arguing for any restriction on free >thought or speech, but am trying to understand and explain the phenomenon of >cultural rage. >There are/have been Hindu thinkers who engage(d) in criticism of their own >culture/religion in Indian languages and within India. Responses to them within >the Hindu world are of a different nature. Point well taken. Hindus and Muslims are now experiencing many of the feelings of hurt and frustrations that Christians have had to live with for the last century or so ever since they started to be attacked by their secular critics. As you point out, the critics of the Eastern religions sometimes come from societies with a more or less colonial past, which in itself puts salt in the wounds. An interesting point here is that whereas the colonial critics of Hinduism/Islam often were more or less fervent Christians, the modern critic tends to be a secularized agnostic or rationalist, influenced by sociological rather than theological thinking, or by the natural sciences. The basis for the critique has thus changed entirely, and the challenge for Hindus and Muslims lies in coming to terms with "modern knowledge" and the "spirit of the enlightenment" if they want to counter the criticism. I am afraid that such criticism is unavoidable in open societies because the Eastern religions sometimes implicitly or explicitly challenge ideas that are perceived as fundamental to Western values and culture. Although it has been tried on a regular basis during the last couple of centuries, it has proven itself well-nigh impossible to emigrate to a different society, and yet remain within a cultural cocoon. Emigrant groups have to work this out among themselves, and it is always hard work. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Mar 20 18:04:39 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 18:04:39 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068538.23782.15731561081763004654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Hinduism is full of garbage, and it will be a task of generations to clean it all out" -- this is a paraphrase of something that Dadaji Pandurang Shastri Athavale has often repeated. No Hindu I know takes offence at it, because Dadaji has spent his life teaching bhakti, on the basis of the Gita, to uplift people's lives. (See www.swadhyay.org.) There are similar criticisms from Mahatma Gandhi, Vivekananda, and many, many others. Very rarely have Hindus been offended by these. The reason is that these leaders are seen to be working for the Indic Tradition, for the uplift of Hindus. The criticism is to energize Hindus, not to denigrate them, destroy them or to impose an alien ideology. The authority to criticize arises from participation and practice (exactly like learning Gita or learning physics). Knowledge of the ancient language of religious texts is not sufficient to give any weight. It is incorrect to say that Hindus cannot take criticism; from one who loves them, they will accept anything. -Arun Gupta From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Mar 20 17:11:51 2001 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 18:11:51 +0100 Subject: query In-Reply-To: <39DC8420.4586E119@home.com> Message-ID: <161227068556.23782.10133355471370677700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members, Can someone tell me the etymological derivation of the word 'morayaa', referring to Ganesha. Is morayaa a Marathi word? Is the referent a corruption of mayur? Thanks, John Grimes, MSU From giravani at JUNO.COM Tue Mar 20 19:52:56 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 19:52:56 +0000 Subject: reviews and comments Message-ID: <161227068548.23782.685445637496540819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What happened between the Prophet of Islam and his wives is nobody's business. Rushdie's book is trash with four letter word scattered several times.It is not example of objective thinking but throwing trash everywhere. Hindus do not go searching drainages of the houses of the other people. When they enter the house of the other, they visit the little sanctuary(Devagriha) of the deities in the house.Hindus are trying to understand Islam through centuries of efforts from Saints like Guru Nanak,Kabir and Meher Baba.Hindus could discuss the birth of Jesus Christ in the line of David who was involved in adultry. But they do not do that. They are trying to understand the meaning of "In Jesus Christ, the God uniquely reconciled with Himself".Hindus believe that no avatAra takes place without reason. Hindus are trying to find out the reasons of avatAra of Jesus and Prophet Mohammad in the ancient history of middle east. Both Makka and Sea of Galili were holy places thousands of years before the patriarch Abraham the Hebrew. Whose holy places were these? By knowing their history Hindus might get the clues for their own prehistory which was messed up by alien scholars.I am not worried about attacks on Krishna. He will defend himself. The sun does not need the candle of Wendy to illuminate himself.Thanks. From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Mar 20 19:38:51 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 20:38:51 +0100 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068545.23782.2172530429875506336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Gita is certainly not totally consistent. The Gita could be called dishonest if that inconsistancy was intended and could have been avoided. However, exactly that is a human impossibility--on the matters with which the Gita is concerned, human consistency is impossible. It follows that the Gita is not dishonest in this. Conversely, if the Gita were "dishonest", then I may add that a basic principle of Greek tragedy would make it "dishonest", too: the human condition of not being ABLE to decide and act right, even when bitterly wanting to do so. There is a difference between man and the divine, and no human knowledge and intent can bridge it. Nothing we theorize can be totally consistent. Nothing we do can really be perfectly right. What is dishonest would be to assume that when you remove the veil you become god. In fact, isn't it exactly dishonest to claim to be able to provide a consistent view of the world. It seems a bit uninformed by now to expect a consistent view of the world from the Gita or any other human attempt at understanding the world... Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > I suppose the issue is also a distinction between serious and careless > scholarship. When Prof. Wendy Doniger says "gIta is a dishonest book", what > does it mean? > > Dishonesty is a complicated concept. Even honesty not straight forward. Good > is good. Bad is not good. Honesty is to do good when one has the opportunity > to do bad without being noticed. Dishonesty is appearing as doing good, but > actually doing bad because nobody is seeing. > > 1. What is "good" in the case of kurukSetra war? > 2. What "good" does gIta present to public? > 3. What "bad" is it actually doing? > 4. Where does it deceive public? > 5. Who was cheated? > > gIta is a book crammed with concepts borrowed from all over the earlier > literature. For theological matters, it has many conflicting views because > on one hand it says yajna is perfectly good enough for reaching "param", and > at a different place it says 'navedayajnAdhyanairnadAnair > nacakriyAbhairnatapobhrugraiH". Readers have to live with it. > > For practical matters, all Hindu zAstrAs are saying perform your dharma. Why > only gIta? All purANAs, and epic stories (rAmAyaNa etc) contain long > discussions on what is the dharma and how to decide in different situations. > Even rAma broke some rules to secure win for dharma. Even if gIta were not > propounded by Krishna, rest of the zAstrAs would be saying the same thing - > arjuna must fight. > > As for religious intimidation and frustration, it is common. I also faced it > at an NYC religious study group, which was otherwise a great memory for me. > Such things only go against the spirit of freedom and harden attitudes. Let > us live with it. (This is my 15th post, see you all in April). > > Best regards > Bhadraiah > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Tue Mar 20 20:38:00 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 21:38:00 +0100 Subject: India Office Library Message-ID: <161227068554.23782.6053378956378441336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi there. Here is the address: The British Library Oriental and India Office Collections (OIOC) 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB UK Concerning your manuscripts, how about faxing them your request. Here is the fax number: +44-20-7412-7850. Regards, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com marina orelskaya wrote: > Dear list members, > could anyone provide me with the postal address of > India Office Library in London? And what are the > possibilities of obtaining a xerox copy of a > manuscript from there? > Regards, > > Dr Marina Orelskaya > c/o Department of Sanskrit > and Prakrit Languages > University of Pune > Ganeshkhind Road > Pune 411007 > Maharashtra > India > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Wed Mar 21 03:15:23 2001 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 01 22:15:23 -0500 Subject: Lantsa In-Reply-To: <20010320141310.97399.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068558.23782.16441487028857861893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings- Can anyone recommend resources (books, papers, etc.) dealing with lantsa script and its history? thank you Dante Rosati dante at interport.net From benjy_fleming at ALTAVISTA.COM Wed Mar 21 18:17:08 2001 From: benjy_fleming at ALTAVISTA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 10:17:08 -0800 Subject: rajasuya and black goatskins Message-ID: <161227068569.23782.6687357533067667934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Mar 21 09:18:27 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 10:18:27 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068563.23782.6628514009782789944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU [SMTP:rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU] skrev 20. mars 2001 17:39: > Many European countries have laws in force to the present day, > criminalising precisely the sort of "right not to be offended" on the > basis of which Dr. Fosse assigns the entire Muslim population of the > world (approximately 1.2 billion people) to "disrepute". > > I could mention the following articles of the Norwegian Penal Code: > 95, which punishes insulting the flag of a foreign state with one > year's imprisonment; 101, which punishes defaming the King or Regent > with five years; 130, which punishes defaming public authorities with > one year; 142, which prohibits blasphemy. Your knowledge of Norwegian law is very commendable. However, these paragraphs exist for historic reasons. They are never used. When the Satanic Verses appeared, Norwegian Muslims tried to stop the Norwegian edition by resorting to paragraph 142. The court decided that the right of free speech was more important. This was nothing new. The same paragraph was wilfully brought to the test by the Norwegian writer Arnulf Oeverland in the 1930's. Oeverland used explicitly blasphemic language and practically asked for a court case. He got it, and the court decided to give free speech precedence over blasphemy. As for flags, I believe the American flag is being burned here quite regularly. And people on occasion see fit to insult the royal house without repercussions. With special reference to > this question of blasphemy, since the West is claimed to be a society > "that values free speech higher than religion", the UK has > successfully prosecuted under the blasphemy laws as recently as 1979, > and European Court of Human Rights upheld their use by the British > Board of Film Classification as recently as 1996. Could you give some more details about the cases in question? In Norway, the "Life of Brian" was prohibited by the film censor's office when it came in the seventies because it was regarded as blasphemous, but it was later shown on TV in the nineties without any paragraphs having been changed. Instead, perceptions of morality have changed. The same goes for erotic/pornographic material. The film censor's office primarily existed in order to protect the Norwegian population agaist excessive violence and pornography, and "Life of Brian" is the only time it was used against blasphemy, I believe because of strong protests from Christian milieus. According to the latest signals, the institution of film censor is now about to disappear. Mind you: the film censor's office is/was not a court but a public body that worked according to its own discretion based on certain general guidelines. However, Norway does have a paragraph against racism ("the racism paragraph") which has actually been used. It was a rather extreme case of racist ideology in an extremist party, and the party leader was convicted after two court cases, one in a lower court (where he won) and one in Norway's high court, where he lost by one vote, I believe. The lower court wanted to uphold the right of free speech, the minority in the high court wanted the same. If, however, this view had carried the day, the racism paragraph would have become utterly meaningless. There have been attempts in parliament to remove the blasphemy paragraph altogether, but so far this has not happened. There may be people in parliament who want to keep it in reserve as a legal instrument for future use, I can only speculate. If anything, I believe that the other Scandinavian states are as liberal as Norway, if not more so. So your argument is null and void as far as Scandinavia is concerned. You also have to show that the blasphemy paragraph not only exists, but is used in practice to establish your case when other Western states are concerned. Apparently, you can do so for Britain. If you have more cards up you sleeve, please show them. And that's without > even mentioning how Western societies punish free speech when it > conflicts with commercial interest (more of a "sacred cow" than > religion) as in the case of Jon Johansen. I am not familiar with this case. > Free speech is an issue that all societies deal with. Caricatured > stereotypes about "the Western person's" approach contrasted with the > "disreputable" Muslim's serve only to distort the issue. I still claim that the Rushdie affair had a very unfortunate effect on Muslim reputation (just as the recent blowing up of the Buddha statues in Bamiyan). In Norway, the effect was immediate. Groups that had either actively supported or passively tolerated Muslims until then, suddenly became very critical of them. Since then, Norwegian authorities and press have constantly been exerting pressure on the local Muslims for various reasons such as arranged marriages (usually referred to as "forced marriages"), female circumcision etc. Before the Rushdie affair, informed people preferred to look the other way and leave it to Asian and African immigrants to "modernize" in peace. When you are in a Muslim country, you should preferably not spend your days chasing pigs into mosques. In the West, the fatwa against Rushdie was such a pig, and the reaction was accordingly. Please remember that most Westerners do not see Muslims as members of diversified groups of very different persuasions. Westerners tend to lump them all together, and this means that when a group of Muslims commit an obnoxious act, all tend to get blamed. This is obviously unfair, but it is the way things are. Even in India, where Hindu nationalist don't seem awfully preoccupied with giving nuanced accounts of Muslim attitudes and behaviour. Would you claim that Muslims have gained respect in Western societies during the last years? My impression is that this is not the case, but that is admittedly based on casual observation. If you have hard facts to the contrary, please show them. I have a feeling that you read me the way a certain man reads the Bible. I am not going to make a song and dance about it, I regard it more as your problem than mine, but it would be nice for the debate if you your interpretations of my attitudes and words were less "twisted" in a certain direction. All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Mar 21 05:28:04 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 10:58:04 +0530 Subject: doha by rahim Message-ID: <161227068561.23782.5075378815960410556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SUPPOSE I change the first foot to:Barhon kaam ochhey karey? -----From: Naseem Hines > : The Doha is a rhyming couplet, each of the two lines containing 24>matras. Each line is further divided into two feet. The first and the third feet of a hoda have 13 matras each and the second the fourth feet contain 11 matras each. >> > Ochhon kaam barhey karen,to na barhai hoye >> > Jyon Rahim Hanumant ko, Giridhar kahe na koye. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Mar 21 18:36:55 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 13:36:55 -0500 Subject: Dr. Roodbergen's address? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068572.23782.2977535884375324587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate very much if anyone can give me the mailing and emailing address for Dr. J.A.F. Roodbergen in Amsterdam. Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Mar 21 15:18:20 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 16:18:20 +0100 Subject: Indian IT politics Message-ID: <161227068565.23782.9939719227974733236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net: Could anybody please tell me where I can find information on India's IT politics? Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Mar 21 17:45:52 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 01 17:45:52 +0000 Subject: Lantsa (Ranjana script) Message-ID: <161227068568.23782.12582660780615083700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rosati wrote: >Can anyone recommend resources (books, papers, etc.) dealing with lantsa >script and its history? I would also be interested in knowing about the history. It is said that the script come in use in 953 A. D., which seems right since it is an early form of devanagari. The form probably emereged in the Magadh region (Nalanda etc.). There is a book "Ranjana Lipi Varnamala" published by the Newar community (Lipu Thapu Guthi). I have some information on it if someone is interested. The Soyombo Alphabet invented in 1686 by the Mongolian monk Zanabazar is based on Lantsa/Devanagari. Yashwant Ranjana script http://malaiya.tripod.com/ranjana From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Mar 22 08:14:58 2001 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 00:14:58 -0800 Subject: Address Message-ID: <161227068576.23782.10553316714785940920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Does anyone know the e-mail address of Kirsti Evans, author of Epic Narratives in the Hoysala Temples (1997)? Thanks for any help, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From RMcDermott at BARNARD.EDU Thu Mar 22 13:42:54 2001 From: RMcDermott at BARNARD.EDU (Rachel McDermott) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 08:42:54 -0500 Subject: looking for Dr. Kumkum Roy Message-ID: <161227068581.23782.5490437451606824845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, Does anyone have a current e-mail or mailing address for Kumkum Roy? With thanks -- Rachel Rachel McDermott Dept. of Asian and Middle Eastern Cultures Barnard College New York, NY 10027 From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Mar 22 04:24:03 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 09:54:03 +0530 Subject: Indian IT politics In-Reply-To: <01C0B222.8E777700.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068574.23782.10424134753925370665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Could anybody please tell me where I can find information on India's > IT politics? See `Indian Government Chokes Software Industry in Tamil Nadu' (by Thanjai Nalankilli) http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/01/03.html Samar Abbas From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 22 13:30:10 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 13:30:10 +0000 Subject: Lantsa (Ranjana script) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068579.23782.17446114452204195819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The 2v book Nepalamandala by M S Slusser (Princeton 1982) has a very useful appendix on Nepalese and related scripts and their historical development. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Mar 22 14:13:32 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 14:13:32 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068583.23782.16569530500699062902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following appeared on RISA-L, and may be of interest. It is a little long, so I take it to eat up my quota of posts for the day. -Arun Gupta (http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg04165.html) From: john grimes Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:20:54 -0800 (PST) All, I have resisted for long enough. I had a conversion with Jeff Kripal 12 years ago in Miami, Ohio in which he did not want to acknowledge that an avatara, a paramahamsa (as defined by certain traditions, devotees, scriptures - not as defined by him) existed or can exist. "Human beings are human beings, mortal and fallible and there ends the matter. Don't speak of siddhis and selflessness, of jnana, bala, aisvarya, sakti, virya, and tejas)." A voice propounding reason, of scientific thinking, of empiricism, of psychoanalysis and homoeroticism. Perhaps I protest too much and it was/is I that am the deluded one performing my magic act of transference to protect that which does not really exist. Now, after all these years and so much energy has been expended and after having read Kripal's most recent responses to the Kali's Child controversy (available at http://www.hds.harvard.edu/dpa/news/bulletin.html), I will add my two cents worth: "The turtle told the fish that he had just returned to the lake from a walk on the land. The fish said, you mean swimming in water. No replied the turtle, walking on dry land. But when the turtle tried to explain that one can't swim on land, that it is solid and one walks on it, the fish said, there is nothing like that." It appears to me that Jeff Kripal cannot image that a paramahamsa, a siddha, an avatara is anything other than a male (or female) human being. Interesting isn't it? When the Buddha was asked, "what is the truth," he remained silent. When the Christ was asked by Pilate, "What is the truth," he remained silent. When the Upanisadic sage Bahva was asked by the seeker Vaskalin, "What is the truth," he remained silent. When I am asked, "What is the truth, I remain silent." My silence imitates their silence. On the surface of it, both answers appear the same. But Buddha, Christ, Bahva remained silent because their wisdom embodies the ineffability of Reality. My silence, on the other hand, is from my ignorance in that I do not know Reality. Superficial similarities may be very very misleading. Yes, through a person's eyes he (Ramakrishna, Buddha, etc) looks to be a male human being - at least the initial superficial appearance. But beware warn the texts: Yat bhavo tat bhavasi - as one thinks so one gets. Throughout India's history there have been many sages, siddhas, paramahamsas, avatars, etc (in modern times, see the words of Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Shirdi Sai Baba, Bhagavan Nityananda, etc) that have boldly declared that they are not their physical bodies and that they do not "look" at the world as "normal" individuals do. Yes, they apparently inhabit a human body, but they declare they are not their body (mano buddhyahankara cittani naham, cidananda rupah sivoham sivoham) Thus, to attribute "normal" human motives, delusions, imperfections to them is merely to describe one's own naivete, one's own ignorance. The quotes are legion and can easily be provided. Thus, when Kripal applies psychological theories, psychoanalytic perspectives, homoeroticism, sexuality, and transference theories to Ramakrishna, it is not that Swami Tyagananda or any other critic has missed, "the forest for the trees," as Kripal replies, but that beings such as Ramakrishna are neither forests nor trees. To reduce Ramakrishna to an ordinary, mortal, physical, homoerotic physical human being is to misunderstand, refuse to acknowledge or be incapable of even conceiving of, what a paramahamsa or an avatar is. First and foremost, according to their own words as well as to scriptural references they are not merely fallible human beings operating from desire prompted, ego-centered presuppositions. When that is acknowledged as even a possibility, then all the other "red-herrings" (arguing over how a particular term is to be translated or whether sentence A or B has been overtly/covertly left out of a given edition or whether Kripal speaks fluent or halting Bengali are seen to be rather insignificant and inapplicable. Ramakrishna's life history notes countless experiences in which he went into ecstasy (samadhi) from childhood on - were they all acts of transference to escape the pain, the embarrassment (of what pray tell)? It is entirely within the realm of conceivability that an individual may be virtually if not totally selfless and thus self-interest just does not enter into the equation. It is within the realm of possibility that Ramakrishna went into samadhi at the sight of numerous objects - not as an act of transference - but because of his nature. Ecstatic bliss need not be the same as momentary happiness. Spirituality need not be aberational secularity. To go North is definitely not to go South. His relationships with his young male disciples, with his wife, with females, with things in this material world just may not be motivated, nor adequated described by Freudian theories. If there is "no one home - no egotistic personality" there is no one to protect and nothing to "transfer" or escape from. Moment to moment, from Bliss to Bliss. There may, just may, be paramananda and the bliss of experiencing it. Is it conceivable? Is it possible? Could it be that there are beings who are radically different in motive, from you and me? Those who have eyes to see may see and such sight has nothing to do with one's physical eyes. It would be like hearing that a woman is a foreign land and then searching in a geography book for this strange entity. Alas, one needs to expand one's imagination, one's understanding of the phenomena under scrutiny. I agree with Kripal that a homoerotic/gay/and/or . . . . ./ paramahamsa could, in theory, exist. There is nothing to prevent such. I strongly disagree with him that Ramakrishna was a homoerotic paramahamsa. The diagnosis missed the mark. Ramakrishna may have been mad, but as the Brahmani said, for God, not sexually. I apologize for this outburst but it is time that someone included another voice/ perspective into the discussion. I rest in silence. John Grimes, MSU From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Thu Mar 22 19:18:41 2001 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 14:18:41 -0500 Subject: University and Church Message-ID: <161227068585.23782.13969552423415383785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 3/17/01 3:43:33 PM, dsalmon at SALMON.ORG writes: >It would appear, thanks to the remarkable erudition on this list, that >we were both wrong, since Hebrew as God's tongue has obviously had respectable >Christian support. Can't get much more pre-certified-orthodox than >Augustine, I suppose. Thankfully, the idea has not survived into modern >times, though 1955 is a little too close for comfort. I just got back from vacation and am slowly going through my e-mail. A few years ago two of my aunts came to visit for a few days. I fielded the inevitable question of "What exactly is Sanskrit and why do you study it?" In the course of the following discussion, the eldest aunt (over 80 years old) expressed the belief that if a child grew up without being taught a language, he or she would speak Hebrew by default. I assume one can attribute this belief to the one-room schools or small churches of rural Wisconsin in the 1920s and 30s. All the best, Brian -------------------- BrianDanaAkers.com sfauthor at aol.com From aryabuddha at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 22 22:57:04 2001 From: aryabuddha at YAHOO.COM (Arya Buddha) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 14:57:04 -0800 Subject: Rebuilding Great Lord Buddha of Bamiyan Message-ID: <161227068593.23782.14697359034787484783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We have heard from our friends that you are maybe the most distinguished assembly of scholars. We seek your help. We are Arya Buddha Association. One of our aims is to rebuild the image of the Great Lord Buddha of Bamiyan, one of our greatest heritage. We have carefully monitored the news from reports and personal information. We are sure that it is possible and we are confident it will happen. Four images, one in India, one in Srilanka and the original too will be restored. We have news clips at our web-site. They have demaged the original further, but a large part of it still stands. You know that image not completely of stone, but done in clay. We will try to obtain som fragments of the original, if fate will assist us. The so called demage is only a step to full restoration. Some of you have the capability to assist. Please help. We are too small to do anything ourselves. Arya Buddha Association M.A. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Thu Mar 22 20:09:16 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 15:09:16 -0500 Subject: University and Church In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068587.23782.11142716471023452382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Brian Akers wrote: > > In the course of the following discussion, the eldest aunt (over 80 years > old) expressed the belief that if a child grew up without being taught a > language, he or she would speak Hebrew by default. > I guess that God would really have had to say, 'let there be light', etc., in Esperanto. How odd of God to choose the Japanese. P From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Thu Mar 22 23:39:40 2001 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 18:39:40 -0500 Subject: Rebuilding Great Lord Buddha of Bamiyan (& WEBSITE??) In-Reply-To: <20010322225704.81497.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068595.23782.7106781692853691303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Arya Buddha wrote: > We have heard from our friends that you are maybe the > most distinguished assembly of scholars. We seek your > help. > > We are Arya Buddha Association. One of our aims is to > rebuild the image of the Great Lord Buddha of Bamiyan, > one of our greatest heritage. > > Arya Buddha Association > M.A. ============================================================================ Dear MA, Thank you for your wonderful project. I belong to a Buddhist E-GROUP here in America, and a small group of us are now discussing the possibility of putting together a website dedicated the artists and the Sangha who created this world art treasurer. Our intent is learn more about the culture, the Sangha, and the artists who created this artistic treasure of humanity. We would love to include your pictures and inspirations of your project in our website project in future as we make progress in developing the needed knowledge. Our thought is to approach a university group who has knowledge of the history and culture of that place and time, to assist us to learn as much as possible about the life and times of that culture long ago, and the Sangha and the artists who created this great treasuer. We would seek to learn about that period of history, and share such as knowledge and pictures as we can find to share with the world via this website. Perhaps we can establish communication between our two complimentary projects, and assist eachother as we go forward in these tasks. We would welcome any information referrals and sources of knowledge from the INDOLOGY list who is able to contribute with knowledge and inspiration to both of these complimentary tasks. Any comments ? Avi Dey Coordinator, Hindu Temple Library Project Virginia, USA > [admin note: changed date from Thu, 22 Mar 1973 18:39:40 -0500] From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 22 22:54:59 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 22:54:59 +0000 Subject: reviews and comments (Freud, Vishnu, Kali, Indus Samskrut) Message-ID: <161227068589.23782.16732176379946191238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In RISA-L, John Grimes wrote: http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg04165.html John Grimes told an Indian story: >"The turtle told the fish that he had just returned to the lake from >a walk on the land. The fish said, you mean swimming in water. No >replied the turtle, walking on dry land. But when the turtle tried >to explain that one can't swim on land, that it is solid and one >walks on it, the fish said, there is nothing like that." Was it used by Ramakrishna Paramahamsa too? About 1400 years ago, a Tamil saint told a similar parable: kuuval aamai kuraika.tal aamaiyaik kuuvaloo.tu okkumoo ka.tal e_n_ral pool paavakaarika.l paarppu aritu e_nparaal teevateeva_n civa_n perunta_nmaiyee Vivekananda used the tamil story just changing aamai to fish: -------------------------- Why We Disagree - Swami Vivekanada 15th September 1893. I will tell you a little story. You have heard the eloquent speaker who has just finished say, 'Let us cease from abusing each other,' and he was very sorry that there should be always so much variance. But I think I should tell you a story which would illustrate the cause of this variance. A frog lived in a well. It had lived there for a long time. It was born there and brought up there, and yet was a little, small frog. Of course, the evolutionists were not there then to tell us whether the frog lost its eyes or not, but, for our story's sake, we must take it for granted that it had its eyes, and that it every day cleansed the water of all the worms and bacilli that lived in it with an energy that would do credit to our modern bacteriologists. In this way it went on and became a little sleek and fat. Well, one day another frog that lived in the sea came and fell into the well. 'Where are you from?' 'I am from the sea.' 'The sea! How big is that? Is it as big as my well?' and he took a leap from one side of the well to the other. 'My friend,' said the frog of the sea, 'how do you compare the sea with your little well?' Then the frog took another leap and asked, 'Is your sea so big?' 'What nonsense you speak, to compare the sea with your well!' 'Well then,' said the frog of the well, 'nothing can be bigger than my well; there can be nothing bigger than this; this fellow is a liar, so turn him out.' That has been the difficulty all the while. I am a Hindu, I am sitting in my own little well and thinking that the whole world is my little well. The Christian sits in his little well and thinks the whole world is his well. The Mohammedan sits in his little well and thinks that is the whole world. I have to thank you of America for this great attempt you are making to break down the barriers of this little world of ours, and hope that, in the future, the Lord will help you to accomplish your purpose. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 22 22:56:16 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 01 22:56:16 +0000 Subject: IT in TN (was: Indian IT politics) Message-ID: <161227068591.23782.512250725747239797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A survey of where IT is in Tamilnadu stands can be found from the following Harvard study. READINESS FOR THE NETWORKED WORLD: A QUIET INFORMATION REVOLUTION IN TAMIL NADU January 2001 Colin Maclay with the assistance of Mridul Chowdhury Information Technologies Group Center for International Development Harvard University It is available in pdf format at the website of the CID, Harvard Univ. You can download a copy using the URL http://www2.cid.harvard.edu/india/pdfs/nadu0101.pdf _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Mar 23 01:09:26 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 01 01:09:26 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Overposting Message-ID: <161227068597.23782.14187100904895918384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm on the warpath again about large postings to the list. Please keep your messages down to a screenful of information. I'll have to start cancelling subscriptions if the spate of undisciplined large posts continue. Special offenders are [X] Gunthard Mueller [X] Radha-Govinda Mandir [X] Rohit Chopra [X] Satya Upadhya [X] Jan Brzezinski [X] Prasad Velusamy [X] "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" [X] Arun Gupta [X] Lars Martin Fosse Please, people, keep your postings *short*. Especially Radha-Govinda Mandir. (Public service job announcements are exempt from the size rule.) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Fri Mar 23 05:22:50 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 01 05:22:50 +0000 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068599.23782.15352770896099477240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: "The Gita is certainly not totally consistent" -- My current understanding is limited; but I would venture the hypothesis that the Gita is paradoxical rather than "not totally consistent". Better understanding will resolve the paradoxes. -Arun Gupta From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Fri Mar 23 17:42:06 2001 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 01 09:42:06 -0800 Subject: Thanks! (+ message for Dominik) Message-ID: <161227068608.23782.18024596971586802097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars, your signature, address, phone numbers etc alone seem to quite chunky ;-))) Unlike Madhuresan, Venkataraman Iyer etc who are way too shy to ever give their address, you seem to tack on quite a few lines and characters in every post. On your last post, they alone were a 1/3 screenful -- on my Toshiba 750CDM laptop where I read e-mail via Netscape 4.61 (with headers set to brief, and toolbars turned off, for increased me) ! -Srini. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Mar 23 09:07:36 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 01 10:07:36 +0100 Subject: Thanks! (+ message for Dominik) Message-ID: <161227068601.23782.18432111966051862957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Samar Abbas, Mahadevan, Birgit Kellner, and Venkatraman Iyer for their information on Indian IT. All info has been very useful. Special message for Dominik: Sorry for writing those long mails. I'll try to curb my communicative urges better in the future. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Fri Mar 23 11:24:14 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 01 12:24:14 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Overposting Message-ID: <161227068603.23782.11251012802349371736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, quantity is a measure of frequency and volume, right? Please check how many mails I wrote the last couple of months. Hardly any. I can't really write less without going off the list altogether... Everybody please check e-ternals.com for new developments. Take care, Gunthard. gm at e-ternals.com Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I'm on the warpath again about large postings to the list. > > Please keep your messages down to a screenful of information. I'll have > to start cancelling subscriptions if the spate of undisciplined large > posts continue. > > Special offenders are > > [X] Gunthard Mueller > [X] Radha-Govinda Mandir > [X] Rohit Chopra > [X] Satya Upadhya > [X] Jan Brzezinski > [X] Prasad Velusamy > [X] "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" > [X] Arun Gupta > [X] Lars Martin Fosse > > Please, people, keep your postings *short*. Especially Radha-Govinda > Mandir. > > (Public service job announcements are exempt from the size rule.) > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 23 17:23:47 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 01 17:23:47 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] Overposting Message-ID: <161227068605.23782.11431233202365579307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not posted a mail in the last 3 weeks! So why the "discipline". Since I don't like being 'disciplined' by anyone in this schoolmarmish manner, please unsubscribe me from the list rohit >From: Gunthard Mueller >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Overposting >Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:24:14 +0100 > >Dominik, >quantity is a measure of frequency and volume, right? >Please check how many mails I wrote the last couple >of months. >Hardly any. >I can't really write less without going off the list altogether... > >Everybody please check e-ternals.com for new developments. >Take care, >Gunthard. > >gm at e-ternals.com > >Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > I'm on the warpath again about large postings to the list. > > > > Please keep your messages down to a screenful of information. I'll have > > to start cancelling subscriptions if the spate of undisciplined large > > posts continue. > > > > Special offenders are > > > > [X] Gunthard Mueller > > [X] Radha-Govinda Mandir > > [X] Rohit Chopra > > [X] Satya Upadhya > > [X] Jan Brzezinski > > [X] Prasad Velusamy > > [X] "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" > > [X] Arun Gupta > > [X] Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Please, people, keep your postings *short*. Especially Radha-Govinda > > Mandir. > > > > (Public service job announcements are exempt from the size rule.) > > > > -- > > Dominik Wujastyk > > Founder, INDOLOGY list. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 24 13:23:57 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 05:23:57 -0800 Subject: The artful destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha Message-ID: <161227068610.23782.1475531052107110860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, it has left us all speechless, hasn?t it. In Jakarta we viewed beautiful French TV5 footage of a tremendous cloud of smoke and dust in the aftermath of a mortar blast striking the standing Bamiyan Buddha. By achieving new heights of poignant post-modernity, the Taleban authorities have paid great hommage to those illustrious patriarchs of Surrealism - Luis Bu?uel and Salvador Dali. We nominate the Taleban?s stunning installation for the Grand Prix d'Art 2001. Bravo! Ven. Tantra Jasmine Hermitage __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bvi at AFN.ORG Sat Mar 24 17:19:33 2001 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Krishna-kripa das) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 12:19:33 -0500 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068613.23782.17528289602149591510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:22 AM 3/23/01 +0000, Arun Gupta wrote: >Re: "The Gita is certainly not totally consistent" -- >My current understanding is limited; but I would venture >the hypothesis that the Gita is paradoxical rather than >"not totally consistent". Better understanding will resolve >the paradoxes. I agree. And regarding consistency, Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." It is interesting that even Arjuna appears to have difficulty in following Krishna's argument and thus in the beginning of chapters 3 and 5, for example, he asks for clarification as to what is better, renunciation or work in devotion. Krishna then proceeds to clear up Arjuna's doubts. Another point is that Krishna advises in 4.34 that one try to understand the truth by inquiring submissively from and rendering service to one who has seen the truth. If this procedure is not followed it is perhaps not surprising that the Gita will appear paradoxical. The 'truth' referred to there is described in the following verse, 4.35, and is that all beings are within Krishna. Best wishes to everyone, Chris Beetle From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Sat Mar 24 20:50:41 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 15:50:41 -0500 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? Message-ID: <161227068620.23782.16194146903244163872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps this is the one: http://dalitstan.org/journal/genocide/genocide.html -- Rohan. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 24 16:03:08 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 16:03:08 +0000 Subject: Delhi Sultanate Message-ID: <161227068611.23782.17378575028485267201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Narayan R. Joshi" wrote: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0103&L=indology&P=R3163 <<< Even to this day, there exist ancient shrines scattered all over the Middle east from Egypt to Arabia.It was the Turkish custom to destroy the temples and build tombs over the dead people.To the best of my knowledge (please correct me if I were wrong), there is no tomb (round cylindrical structure and building) on the spot where the Prophet (pbuh)of Islam is resting eternally.It was reported in the ancient Hindu scriptures that at the place where the living God was once playing,in future the tomb of the dead would be erected. When Bauddha round stoops were built in the ancient India, some felt that prophecy was fulfilled. No, it was fulfilled when the tomb called Taj-Mahal was built on the bank of KrishNa's YamunA river. True Islam should be separated from practices of Turks with the ancient totem of Wolf. Thanks. >>> http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0103&L=indology&P=R11039 <<< When Cyrus the great conquered Babylon,all temples and deities were saved intact. Cyrus the great prostrated in front of Marduk and burnt incense.He promised Babylonians that their gods were his gods too.He made Jews free and gave them money to build their temple on their return. Cyrus the great knew the ancient world and respected the ancient traditions.Cyrus the Great was Persian and not Turk.This is the difference between Arya and Wolf. Thanks. >>> This is interesting. Are the founders of Delhi sultanate Turk or Persian Aryans? Is it your claim that basically there is not much difference between Iranians and Indians who speak Aryan languages? Kind regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From bvi at AFN.ORG Sat Mar 24 22:30:16 2001 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 17:30:16 -0500 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068622.23782.18029577569804895383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:17 PM 3/24/01 +0100, Gunthard Mueller wrote: >It is one way to approach the Gita as ultimate religious >reference, and another to try to understand it as a work >of religious literature. >If you come from the former angle, you will see truth >in the Gita itself, no matter what it says, and you will >not be concerned about paradoxes, consistency, and >other such measly nitty-gritty. >If you try to understand it as a work of religious >literature, you have to develop your own viewpoint. >That's a lot harder. >I assume that the indology list is not a place of >devotion, but of analysis. I suppose it is for the list founder to judge the relevance of my contribution. The Gita itself indicates that knowledge results in devotion (10.8) and that devotion results in knowledge (10.10). One could see devotion as a tool to gain insight into the Gita, and one could argue that a devotional interpretation is, at the very least, a valid way of appreciating its meaning. As far as the Gita's paradoxes, Arjuna seems ultimately to have transcended them at least by his own admission (Bg. 18.73). Best wishes, Chris Beetle > >gm at e-ternals.com > >Chris Beetle wrote: > >> At 05:22 AM 3/23/01 +0000, Arun Gupta wrote: >> >Re: "The Gita is certainly not totally consistent" -- >> >My current understanding is limited; but I would venture >> >the hypothesis that the Gita is paradoxical rather than >> >"not totally consistent". Better understanding will resolve >> >the paradoxes. >> >> I agree. >> >> And regarding consistency, Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is >> the hobgoblin of little minds." >> >> It is interesting that even Arjuna appears to have >> difficulty in following Krishna's argument and thus in the >> beginning of chapters 3 and 5, for example, he asks for >> clarification as to what is better, renunciation or work in >> devotion. Krishna then proceeds to clear up Arjuna's doubts. >> >> Another point is that Krishna advises in 4.34 that one try to >> understand the truth by inquiring submissively from and rendering >> service to one who has seen the truth. If this procedure is >> not followed it is perhaps not surprising that the Gita will appear >> paradoxical. The 'truth' referred to there is described in the following >> verse, 4.35, and is that all beings are within Krishna. >> >> Best wishes to everyone, >> Chris Beetle > From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 24 19:12:40 2001 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 19:12:40 +0000 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? Message-ID: <161227068615.23782.12357232534353897423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I was sharply interrupted another day in the middle of a lecture I was giving on the Hindu Caste System ( which is not at all my speciality)by someone who asked whether I knew there is in the Internet a site about the "holocaust" the hindus perpetrated on the pariahs along history, etc. Does someone know about this site? It may be also one of those "planted" by people other than the harijans themselves, as a piece of desinformation.Or perhaps there is indeed something going on for a long time which does constitute a strong case. Jesualdo Correia _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Sat Mar 24 19:17:15 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 20:17:15 +0100 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068617.23782.2975649232762451340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is one way to approach the Gita as ultimate religious reference, and another to try to understand it as a work of religious literature. If you come from the former angle, you will see truth in the Gita itself, no matter what it says, and you will not be concerned about paradoxes, consistency, and other such measly nitty-gritty. If you try to understand it as a work of religious literature, you have to develop your own viewpoint. That's a lot harder. I assume that the indology list is not a place of devotion, but of analysis. Running for cover, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Krishna-kripa das wrote: > At 05:22 AM 3/23/01 +0000, Arun Gupta wrote: > >Re: "The Gita is certainly not totally consistent" -- > >My current understanding is limited; but I would venture > >the hypothesis that the Gita is paradoxical rather than > >"not totally consistent". Better understanding will resolve > >the paradoxes. > > I agree. > > And regarding consistency, Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is > the hobgoblin of little minds." > > It is interesting that even Arjuna appears to have > difficulty in following Krishna's argument and thus in the > beginning of chapters 3 and 5, for example, he asks for > clarification as to what is better, renunciation or work in > devotion. Krishna then proceeds to clear up Arjuna's doubts. > > Another point is that Krishna advises in 4.34 that one try to > understand the truth by inquiring submissively from and rendering > service to one who has seen the truth. If this procedure is > not followed it is perhaps not surprising that the Gita will appear > paradoxical. The 'truth' referred to there is described in the following > verse, 4.35, and is that all beings are within Krishna. > > Best wishes to everyone, > Chris Beetle From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 24 20:47:48 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 01 20:47:48 +0000 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? Message-ID: <161227068619.23782.15009992069942945125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have come across a horrendously communal website called the Hindu Holocaust Museum which, I think, is run by some RSS-BJP thugs. However, I don't think that is the same one you are looking for. In any case, the URL for this is www.mantra.com/holocaust/ > > Dear Members, > > I was sharply interrupted another day in the middle of a >lecture I was giving on the Hindu Caste System ( which is not >at all my speciality)by someone who asked whether I knew there is >in the Internet a site about the "holocaust" the hindus perpetrated >on the pariahs along history, etc. > Does someone know about this site? It may be also one of those >"planted" by people other than the harijans themselves, as a piece of >desinformation.Or perhaps there is indeed something going on for a long >time >which does constitute a strong case. > >Jesualdo Correia > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Mar 25 01:37:25 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 01:37:25 +0000 Subject: Red Indian Holocaust Message-ID: <161227068624.23782.13920216578333751007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the best of my knowledge, to this day there is almost 50% American Indian (Red Indians) tribal population in Spanish and Portuguese America spread from Mexico to the southernmost tip of the south America continent. This is not the case with English speaking countries like US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Is it OK to remove the people completely, occupy their country, change the names and then tender apology. What about Irish Famine holocaust? What about Vietnamese holocaust caused by 29 million gallons of Agent Orange Dioxin? Thanks. From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Mar 25 02:02:22 2001 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 03:02:22 +0100 Subject: Red Indian Holocaust Message-ID: <161227068626.23782.9506413539849576804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"Narayan R.Joshi" wrote: >To the best of my knowledge, to this day there is almost 50% American >Indian >(Red Indians) tribal population in Spanish and Portuguese America spread >from Mexico to the southernmost tip of the south America continent. This is >not the case with English speaking countries like US, Canada, Australia and >New Zealand. Is it OK to remove the people completely, occupy their >country, change the names and then tender apology. What about Irish Famine >holocaust? What about Vietnamese holocaust caused by 29 million gallons of >Agent Orange Dioxin? Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree with you and I very much doubt that no matter the evidences which might be gathered it's absolutely unlikely that one could characterize anything within the array of hindu ideological exagerations as able to produce any holocaust.If there is something which distinguishes Hindu civilization from many others is its tolerance.I visited the site in question and it didn?t convince me. Jesualdo Correia _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 25 09:53:32 2001 From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 11:53:32 +0200 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? Message-ID: <161227068629.23782.14395954027625229291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is simply disgusting how all kinds of fanatics abuse the sad historical fact of the genocide committed by the Nazis to spread hatred against other religious or ethnic communities. Presenting the own group as the victims of the alleged horrible crimes committed by the other group (and stating that this behaviour is an intrinsic characterstic of the other group) is the first step to committing genocide and other kinds of mass murder. This was the strategy (or, to a certain degree, the paranoia) of Hitler, this is the strategy /paranoia of Neonazis and this is the strategy /paranoia of those groups who create websites like those mentioned in the previous postings. Really disgusting. Martin Delhey University of Hamburg _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Sun Mar 25 17:13:09 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 12:13:09 -0500 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? Message-ID: <161227068634.23782.17883057614885081007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun writes: >Changiz Khan and his Mongols, the non-Muslim Arabs were "pagans" and >by some stretch of the imagination could be termed "Hindus". But >terming Shiahs as Hindus ( Samar Abbas terms the Shia-Sunni conflict >as the second Hindu-Muslim war) really is something. In doing so, >Samar Abbas (unwittingly) points us to the source of all this poison, >war and killings over the centuries -- this tendency to divide the >world into believer and kafir, even within the people who believe in >the same Prophet and Holy Book. This is a grandiose statement of pseudo-analysis that reveals nothing other than your own anti-Christian, anti-Muslim paranoia. Any dispassionate survey of war and killing among "holy book" cultures (Christianity, Islam) and other cultures (Buddhist, Hindu, etc) cannot but reveal that the tendency to divide people into friendly and enemy groups, and to make that the pretext for violence, is one that will find justification no matter what the alleged inclusivity of the high philosophy of the cultures involved. Just look at anti-Tamil pogroms among the Buddhists of Sri Lanka (neither of the peoples involved being people of a book) or the recent killing of Muslim Madurese by animist Dyaks in Indonesia. Please stop making this list a vehicle for your antifactual paranoias. Regards, Rohan. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Mar 25 08:21:21 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 13:51:21 +0530 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068628.23782.1706951669643124943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following are websites alleging a `Hindu Holocaust': -Hindu Holocaust Museum : www.mantra.com/holocaust/ -Hindu Holocaust Memorial Museum http://www.cul.com/holocaust/welcome.htm -Where is ...? http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9089/holocaust/ -HKush : http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html Not just Hindutvadins, but Islamists claim 100million+ dead over 1500 years of constant war.The figure of 100million+ would include casualties from both sides over 1500 years (626AD-2000) : - The pre-Islamic Arab - Early Muslim (`1st Hindu-Muslim') conflict:5mill - Shiah-Sunni (ie. `2nd Hindu-Muslim') war:20mill. - Mongol-Arab (ie. `Hindu-Muslim') wars, with Genghis Khan as a `Hindu' or pagan who slaughtered Persian and Arab Muslims: 50 millions. Islam was almost destroyed by Hindus in this devastating conflict. - Turkic-Hindi war of 1000 years: 30-100 million. Also, Shivaji, Genghis Khan, Halaku slaughtered millions of Muslims; the Hindu Holocaust Museum makes no mention of these persons killed: - http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/DBG.CHAP3.HTM - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/articles/0,3266,36506,00.html Incidentally, the bedoiun Arab-Early Muslim conflict is viewed as the first Hindu-Muslim war: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html www.isvara.it/biblio/doc_en/vedic_arabia.html The pre-Islamic Arabs, referred to as `Kafirs' in the Quran are considered to have been Hindus. The Koranic injunctions in favour of total war against `Kafirs' is hence translated to mean total war against `Hindus' by modern-day Talibans, who view the 1500 year Hindu-Muslim war as one of good against darkness and evil. Hindutvadins believe the same, except that they consider Islam as `total evil'. Samar Abbas [ On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Jesualdo Correia wrote: > .. someone who asked whether I knew there is in the Internet a site > about the "holocaust" the hindus ] From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sun Mar 25 13:02:54 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 14:02:54 +0100 Subject: Hindu holocaust site? Message-ID: <161227068631.23782.10471424819069298082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Changiz Khan and his Mongols, the non-Muslim Arabs were "pagans" and by some stretch of the imagination could be termed "Hindus". But terming Shiahs as Hindus ( Samar Abbas terms the Shia-Sunni conflict as the second Hindu-Muslim war) really is something. In doing so, Samar Abbas (unwittingly) points us to the source of all this poison, war and killings over the centuries -- this tendency to divide the world into believer and kafir, even within the people who believe in the same Prophet and Holy Book. One practical implication of calling Shias Hindus is that Kashmir is then a Hindu-majority state, and the legitimacy in Islam of the Sunni-led jihad as a liberation struggle for Muslims ruled by non-Muslims is completely undermined. The Jihad can only be justified as Muslims fighting to subdue the Kafirs (the good old Dar-ul-Aman/ Dar-ul-Harb nonsense). Thus Samar Abbas has in one post, completely confirmed the Hindutva fears. -Arun Gupta From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sun Mar 25 13:33:15 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 14:33:15 +0100 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068633.23782.13080431922902932665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Gunthard Mueller has a good point. The devotee may overlook the paradoxes/inconsistencies in the Gita. No need to run for cover. I am open to the possibility that ultimately I will find the Gita inconsistent. But it is too early for me to judge one way or the other. Meanwhile, what Dr. Mueller writes is true of quantum mechanics as well. We have Neils Bohr saying : "If anyone says he can think about quantum problems without getting giddy, that only shows that he has not understood the first thing about them." and Richard Feynman's "I think I can safely say that nobody understands Quantum Mechanics" (that included himself). Without the shraddha that quantum mechanics is meaningful, it would be all too easy for a student of the subject to give up. But if one keeps at it the paradoxes are resolved and an operational comfort-level is reached. Whether this comes from indoctrination or familiarity or devotion -- you tell me ! But there are an enormous number of experiments which require quantum mechanics for explanation -- true. But Gita is about subjective experience. You can access only your own inner state and no-one else's, and physics-type experiments are not possible, even in principle. There are a number of people whom Hindus consider to be of high character who assure us students that the Gita is meaningful. My claim is that like Quantum Mechanics, Gita requires shraddha and practice to bring understanding. Textual analysis (of QM text, or Gita) will not get you much, and will show inconsistencies that are ultimately, not real. (You are of course, free to decide that Gita or QM is not your cup of tea. But you would not be so free with comments about QM if you did not understand it.) Which brings me to my third complaint about Professor Doniger's statement -- it seems to me that she seeks to undermine students' shraddha. But who is she to decide what is worthwhile to understand ? -Arun Gupta From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Sun Mar 25 23:26:47 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 18:26:47 -0500 Subject: Uninformed discussion on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068646.23782.6508714783601708966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages to date, > yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of > the work. How is this possible? > Wasn't he the bassist for Led Zeppelin? P From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Mar 26 00:13:27 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 19:13:27 -0500 Subject: discussion on the Gita( ramble on ) Message-ID: <161227068648.23782.10244201998587362629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wasn't he the bassist for Led Zeppelin? Are you kidding john paul jones analysed the gita? . If I remember, someone called peter grant managed the band. Anyway better them than indologists. RB The information contained in this message is intended only for the confidential use of the recipient(s) named above. This message is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or any agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately. SMG reserves the right to monitor and review all content sent to and from this email address. Messages sent to and from this address may be stored on the SMG email system. From D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET Sun Mar 25 21:02:40 2001 From: D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 23:02:40 +0200 Subject: doha by rahim In-Reply-To: <002601c0b068$e26c2740$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227068636.23782.9778499723394952901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:06 19-3-01 +0530, you wrote: >There is a small book on Rahim, written by Vijayendra Snatak,and published >by Sahitya Akademi,New Delhi,1990. It contains the following couplet by Rahim: > >Ochhon kaam barhey karen,to na barhai hoye >Jyon Rahim Hanumant ko, Giridhar kahe na koye. > > >Is the first line correct? In 'rahiim ke dohe', published by the 'raa.s.trabhaa.saa pracaar samiti, vardhaa', 1978, dohaa 121 reads: cho.te kaama ba.re kare.m, to na ba.raaii hoi; jyo.m rahiima hanuma.mta kaha/, giradhara kahe na koi. Metrically correct, gives sense, but might well be a lectio facilior: the common 'cho.te' (small,little) for 'ocho.m' (insignificant), the ending of which is not clear to me. Dick Plukker India Instituut, Amsterdam From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Mar 25 22:21:25 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 23:21:25 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Overposting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068638.23782.4061170688793643438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a note on the criteria I used when I named names: I simply sorted the month's postings in order of size, and mentioned those who had posted the largest messages. No special animus in this, just number of bytes. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Mar 25 22:26:32 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 23:26:32 +0100 Subject: Red Indian Holocaust In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068640.23782.3067678461622682618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although important, this is not an appropriate subject for discussion in the INDOLOLGY list. Do not continue with thread, please. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From aryabuddha at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 25 22:30:31 2001 From: aryabuddha at YAHOO.COM (Arya Buddha Asso) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 23:30:31 +0100 Subject: About Rebuilding Great Lords of Bamiyan Message-ID: <161227068642.23782.10802524632135564517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We thank Mr. Avi Dey for his suggestions. We would be delighted to see the actions of his group. Their website and study of the great heritage of Buddhism in Arya/Gandhar region will be great inspiration to us. The URL of our website is http://geocities.com/aryabuddha/. We kindly invite you all to visit. You are the greatest of scholars, people of considerable influence on individuals, organizations and governments. You will make our dreams come true. We are very few. We can only hope to get things done as catalyst. Can someone reconstruct our paintings electronically and create edited pictures of the Great Lord as he appeared in full glory? Can someone have a cast prepared so that small (say 9") replicas of the Great Lord along with the cliff setting can be cast in clay. Buddhists and other friendly people can keep them in their homes. We can have mantras on birchbark that can be placed in these replicas. Some people in Pakistan make some replicas, however artists in India are expert. We apologize that we have some limitations, we hope you will forgive us for those. Arya Buddha Association M.A. PS: Does anyone know how we can get birchbark? From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Mar 25 22:34:59 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 01 23:34:59 +0100 Subject: Uninformed discussion on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068644.23782.891971548351147539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages to date, yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of the work. How is this possible? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Mar 26 09:05:55 2001 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 01:05:55 -0800 Subject: On the light side...Vedic CDROMs In-Reply-To: <000701c063ff$49414b00$0dcc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227068658.23782.2218753682376926203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is not to be taken seriously. _____________________ At 11:49 PM 12/11/2000 -0600, Claude Setzer wrote: >What if there had been well made CD-ROM's in Vedic Times?????????? Oh, but there were! It's just that the technology was lost by the time of the BrAhmaNas. However, "The Cybernetic Code of the RomVeda" requires of an astute researcher not burdened by decades of boring linguistic scholarship. Surely, someone will rise up to the challenge soon enough. In the meantime, here are a few hints: The technology is attributed to Siddhi RAma, "The Rama of Fantastic Powers" (not to be confused with Parazu RAma, who came much, much later). It was esoterically known as "siddhiH om" which, thanks to sandhi, becomes "siddhir om." When repeated correctly, siddhir om, siddhirom, siddhirom, it granted the reciter the hidden powers (siddhis) to burn the disk. The modern term, Compact Disk, is nothing but a confused, garbled reading of modern Indologists. The original name, here restored for the first time, is KampakathA Dezika, "The Master of Trembling Tales" (the reason for such a name remains obscure). What do you think ViSNu's discus -his cakra- "really" represents? Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Mon Mar 26 01:35:57 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 02:35:57 +0100 Subject: Rani of Jhansi's letters (Re: Devanagari, ..) Message-ID: <161227068651.23782.6859183969585940732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have placed images of two letters by Lakshmibai, the Rani of Jhansi to the Raja of Banpur at http://malaiya.tripod.com/jhansi.html I think they are in the hand of some scribe, with the Rani's stamp. The dialect is Bundelkhandi. They are quite readable, both the language and the script are fairly modern (1857CE). Commercial letters can be much harder to read because of the speed of writing. Yashwant ----------------------- On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 I wrote: >However in much of the rest of North India, Devanagari was >the main script for Hindus. I have seen stacks of business >correspondence (mostly postcards) from the early part of >the century in some families, almost all in some form of >Devanagari. >I have a book on Banpur town (Bundelkhand region) that has >photographs of letters from Rani of Jhansi to the Raja of >Banpur. They are in Devanagari. I have seen nothing to >suggest that in my region (MP) the common people ever >learned the Urdu/Farsi script. Those in the business >of writing government doucments did learn Urdu. From giravani at JUNO.COM Mon Mar 26 02:40:56 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 03:40:56 +0100 Subject: Likes and Dislikes in Science Message-ID: <161227068653.23782.7339798406552343828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> March 26, 2001 is the Hindu Luni-solar New year day called Var.sa PratipadA or UgAdi or Gudhi PAdavA.This is first day when the Sun and the Moon are together after the day of Vernal Equinox(March21), the natural, scientific new year day based purely on astronomical configuration in the sky without anthropological mumbo jumbo.However there are likes and dislikes in science too. The scientist and inventor Edison did not like alternating current of Tesla. Some scientists did not like Fuzzy logic of Dr. Lofti Jadeh and Dr.Jadeh was even insulted by his former student in a conference. However Japanese liked Fuzzy logic and they invited Dr.Jadeh to inaugurate the fast train they designed.So some anthropologist impose their ideas of fecundity cult, fertility goddess and harvest festival on the ancient Hindu calendar. Let us examine the calendar briefly. Under the sign of Aries of pioneering spirit, HanumAna first reached LankA. His birth day comes on the full moon day of the first month Caitra. Under the sign of Taurus, the sign of determination,Buddha determined to find the Truth and he did. His birthady comes on the full moon day of the second month VaishAkha. Under the sign of Gemini(the pair), on the full moon day of Jye.stha, SAvitrI brought back life her husband and remained eternal pair. So SatyavAn-SAvitri Vrata ie celebrated under the Vata tree. Under the sign of Cancer, sign of mother,VyAsa PorNimA is celebrated on the full moon day of the fourth month Aa.sAdha.Who could be a mother greater than VyAsa who fed us with the milk of GeetA? Under the sign of Leo,the full moon day of the fifth month ShrAvaNa is auspicious day to perform SatyanArAyaNa poojA.In this month Kri.sNa was born with Leo sun sign and Taurus rising sign. The formidable combination of lion and bull brought the utter ruin to the Kuru Empire of the arrogant and wicked Kuru-kauravas. Under the sign Virgo, the sign of gambling, the dice games are played on the full moon day called KojAgiri PorNimA of the seventh month Aashvina. On the full moon day of KArtika, the temples of Shankara are decorated with lights. This is the TripurAri PorNimA. On this day Shankara destroyed all three floating cities of Asuras in one stroke of his trident. Under the sign of Sagittarius, the sign of Jupiter, the bithday of Guradeva DattAtreya is celebrated on the full moon day of the nineth month MArgashIr.sa. Finally in the last month of FAlguna(Falgu means trivia), on the full moon day HorikA (HolI) is celebrated followed by Ranga pancamI(Color festival). In the ancient Russia this was the month of Pancakes called DhiradIs in Maharashtra. This is the month of sport matches, fun, frolic and all trivias in the ancient Russia and it is also the same to this day in India.This is the month of Vasant(Basanta) festival(Welcoming Spring season) and it was called BahAra in the ancient Iran. One reason to bring fecundity cult, fertility goddess and harvest festival into picture to imply indirectly that the ancient cultures like India and Iran that existed bfore Copernicus revolution did not know astronomical calculations and their celebrations were based on the harvests. Except Buddha's birthday all these full moon day celebrations were in place before 550 BCE.Is it possible for Hindus to cook these festivals within a period of 400 years from 950 BCE(Aryans still cutting forests in the north India according to some Indologists)to 550 BCE? Happy New Year to all.Thanks. From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Mon Mar 26 04:51:20 2001 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 06:51:20 +0200 Subject: Help with address Message-ID: <161227068655.23782.7917981216206243330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should appreciate it if someone could pass on to me Edwin Gerow's email address and/or fax number. Many thanks, Ken -- Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Ph: +45 3532 8832 Leifsgade 33,5 Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk If mail address fails use: zysk at spam.hum.ku.dk From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Mon Mar 26 13:21:19 2001 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 08:21:19 -0500 Subject: Help with address In-Reply-To: <3ABECAC8.D521D00A@hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227068670.23782.5150833782029614340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kenneth, I have his e-mail address, though not his fax #. Edwin.Gerow at directory.Reed.EDU Hope this helps. Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion 114C Miner Hall Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 ph# (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 26 16:22:14 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 08:22:14 -0800 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068675.23782.5210795470106343070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Arun Gupta wrote: > Textual analysis of QM text, or Gita) > will not get you much, and will show inconsistencies > that are ultimately, > not real. I wonder if you can compare the study of a physics text with that of Geetha. For example, the so called caramazloka "SarvadharmAn parityajya" etc (Bh.G 18.66), has been interpreted differently by different traditional commentators and the consequent inconsistencies in other teachers' thought thrown up by their interpretation were and are for their followers very real. Needless to say, all these different interpretations co-exist and are "vedavAk" for the adherents of different sects. > > Which brings me to my third complaint about > Professor Doniger's statement -- > it seems to me that she seeks to undermine students' > shraddha. But who > is she to decide what is worthwhile to understand? But you may be interested to know that a traditional teacher in one very theistic, vaishnava tradition in the 14th cent. is said to have advised a prominent disciple clearly "Read once (i.e., do not waste time reading) the Brahma sutra bhashya and other Sanskrit texts of our tradition, but continue the study of the bhakti texts like our ancestors did". Would you consider this statement as undermining the student's sraddha since this statement clearly included the Geethabhashya also? Actually the followers of this teacher took the advice seriously and continued the study of the Tamil bhakti texts with extra energy and transmitted a vast commentarial literature on the Tamil texts. Perhaps students may take Prof Doniger's advice or ignore it. I don't suppose teachers *decide* what is worthwhile ... but I'd better let the teachers on this list talk on this subject :-) Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Mar 26 15:36:11 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 10:36:11 -0500 Subject: [David Magier : SARAI has new address] Message-ID: <161227068673.23782.12698108162136678852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear South Asian Studies colleagues, please note the new address for SARAI (South Asia Resource Access on the Internet): http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl Please adjust all your SARAI bookmarks, and any links to SARAI you might have on other pages, and please pass this news along to colleagues. Since SARAI has moved, the International Directory of South Asia Scholars, where many of you are listed on the web, has also moved. Its new direct address is: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl/directory.html Please type your name in the box (in the SEARCH IDSAS box) to see your existing entry, and just email me any updates or changes. If for some reason you are NOT listed (!), please compose an entry with the following elements: Name: Title: Affiliation: Mail address: phone(s): fax: email: web-page: Short statement of activities, teaching and/or research interests, and list of publications (including appropriate keywords and detailed descriptions so that others can search for your entry): Please browse the IDSAS to look at other people's entries (try keyword search "Rajasthan") to get an idea of the appropriate content and format of your entry. Then compose it and email it (plain text please, no diacritics or fancy fonts or anything) to me for inclusion in the Directory. Feel free to send questions. All the best, David Magier South Asia Librarian, Columbia University and Editor of SARAI (and IDSAS) P.S. It was nice to see many of you at the AAS meetings in Chicago! From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Mon Mar 26 05:13:16 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 10:43:16 +0530 Subject: lunisolar calendar Message-ID: <161227068657.23782.7711893081894323904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Narayan R.Joshi >March 26, 2001 is the Hindu Luni-solar New year day called Var.sa PratipadA >or UgAdi or Gudhi PAdavA.This is first day when the Sun and the Moon are >together after the day of Vernal Equinox(March21), ______________RESPONSE______________ This is not correct. In principle,the "Hindu LuniSolar New Year" should start with Amavasya preceding the Vernal Equinox,so that the Vernal Equinox occurs in the first lunar month (and not in the last) Since this calendar has a year length that is too long , during the last 1500 years excess of about three weeks has accumulated.That is why the actual correlation of a Samkranti with an equinoctial os solsticial colure ,which would have existed in say AD 300 is now only symbolic.(E.g. Makara Samkranti,13/14 Jan. is still celebrated as Uttarayani, although winter solstice would have already occurred 21 /22 Dec.) FINALLY,a question.What is the basis for the statement that "Except Buddha's birthday these full-moon day celebrations were in place before 550BCE "Also, how old is the Buddha Jayanti celebration? Rajesh Kochhar? From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Mon Mar 26 10:34:08 2001 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 11:34:08 +0100 Subject: SV: Uninformed discussion on the Gita In-Reply-To: <01C0B5EA.A1EFDCC0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068664.23782.4689048719635397334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dominik Wujastyk [SMTP:ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] skrev 26. mars 2001 00:35: > > The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages to date, > > yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of > > the work. How is this possible? > > OK, you got me interested. What are the exact bibliography data? The (rather) comprehensive bibliography of Przyluski's works put together by Alexander W. MacDonald and Marcelle Lalou mentions only two articles that deal inter alia with the Bhagavadgita (see A.W. MacDonald et Marcelle Lalou: L'oeuvre de Jean Przyluski. Paris 1970, No. 40 and No. 114). Dominik Wujastyk possibly means the monograph of ?tienne Lamotte? That is: Lamotte, ?tienne: Notes sur la Bhagavadgita. Paris: Geuthner, 1929 (Soci?t? Belge d'?tudes orientales) Peter Wyzlic -- Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn http://www.uni-bonn.de/indologie/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Mar 26 09:43:45 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 11:43:45 +0200 Subject: SV: Uninformed discussion on the Gita Message-ID: <161227068660.23782.3730730706141068840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk [SMTP:ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK] skrev 26. mars 2001 00:35: > The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages to date, > yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of > the work. How is this possible? OK, you got me interested. What are the exact bibliography data? Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From Sidsel.Hansson at TEOL.LU.SE Mon Mar 26 10:03:45 2001 From: Sidsel.Hansson at TEOL.LU.SE (Sidsel Hansson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 12:03:45 +0200 Subject: Ref Buddhist studies Message-ID: <161227068662.23782.6449969420137869450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Olle In case you missed it, se denna referansen som ?r relevant f?r ditt Riksbankenprojekt. Sidsel Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:14:15 +1200 >Reply-To: Indology >From: Richard B Mahoney >Subject: Re: Uninformed discussion on the Gita >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Dear Dominik, > >On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:34:59PM +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages >> to date, yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and >> fundamental study of the work. How is this possible? > > >It may be that most posters have taken de Jong's criticism of >Przyluski's later work to heart.[1] Apparently ... > > In later publications Przyluski succumbed to a mania of > comparatism which led him to discover everywhere non-Indian > influences. > >This sounds like a disturbing condition. One really wouldn't want >to spend much time with someone who had developed it. 8-) > > > >[1] p. 46 in de Jong, J.W. `A Brief History of Buddhist Studies >in Europe and America' (Delhi: Sri Satguru, 1987) > >-- >------------------------ Richard Mahoney ------------------------- >78 Jeffreys Rd +64-3-351-5831 >Christchurch New Zealand >--------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------- From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Mon Mar 26 00:14:15 2001 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 12:14:15 +1200 Subject: Uninformed discussion on the Gita In-Reply-To: <"from ucgadkw"@UCL.AC.UK> Message-ID: <161227068650.23782.37183025983065050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:34:59PM +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages > to date, yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and > fundamental study of the work. How is this possible? It may be that most posters have taken de Jong's criticism of Przyluski's later work to heart.[1] Apparently ... In later publications Przyluski succumbed to a mania of comparatism which led him to discover everywhere non-Indian influences. This sounds like a disturbing condition. One really wouldn't want to spend much time with someone who had developed it. 8-) [1] p. 46 in de Jong, J.W. `A Brief History of Buddhist Studies in Europe and America' (Delhi: Sri Satguru, 1987) -- ------------------------ Richard Mahoney ------------------------- 78 Jeffreys Rd +64-3-351-5831 Christchurch New Zealand --------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------- From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Mar 26 10:24:41 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 12:24:41 +0200 Subject: SV: Ref Buddhist studies Message-ID: <161227068666.23782.5597463829603720960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sidsel Hansson [SMTP:Sidsel.Hansson at TEOL.LU.SE] skrev 26. mars 2001 12:04: Hei Sidsel, er du klar over at du sendte meldingen nedenfor til Indology? Gar det forovrig bra der borte? Lars Martin > >Olle > > In case you missed it, se denna referansen som ar relevant for ditt > Riksbankenprojekt. > Sidsel > Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:14:15 +1200 > >Reply-To: Indology > >From: Richard B Mahoney > >Subject: Re: Uninformed discussion on the Gita > >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > > >Dear Dominik, > > > >On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:34:59PM +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > >> The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages > >> to date, yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and > >> fundamental study of the work. How is this possible? > > > > > >It may be that most posters have taken de Jong's criticism of > >Przyluski's later work to heart.[1] Apparently ... > > > > In later publications Przyluski succumbed to a mania of > > comparatism which led him to discover everywhere non-Indian > > influences. > > > >This sounds like a disturbing condition. One really wouldn't want > >to spend much time with someone who had developed it. 8-) > > > > > > > >[1] p. 46 in de Jong, J.W. `A Brief History of Buddhist Studies > >in Europe and America' (Delhi: Sri Satguru, 1987) > > > >-- > >------------------------ Richard Mahoney ------------------------- > >78 Jeffreys Rd +64-3-351-5831 > >Christchurch New Zealand > >--------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------- > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Mar 26 11:28:08 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 12:28:08 +0100 Subject: Uninformed discussion on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068668.23782.12761071001582154060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Phillip Ernest wrote: > > yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of > Wasn't he the bassist for Led Zeppelin? Good god, no! Your are thinking of John Paul Jones. To say that JPJ's latest solo album Zooma is an extraordinary musical achievement, although at times overwhelming, especially in its opening tracks, Zooma and Grind, which seem to refer powerfully to the relentless mechanisation of modern life, and that his use of eight and more strings on his bass guitars is heroic, but that the dependence on Pro Tools in production seems to take away from the naturalness and musicality of which, as is demonstrated in old Zep tracks such as Ramble On, Jones is eminently capable and which are, dare one say it, more succesfully achieved in the recent virtuoso release Out Bound by bassist Stu Hamm, would take us far beyond the remit of the INDOLOGY discussion. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU Mon Mar 26 19:44:47 2001 From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 13:44:47 -0600 Subject: doha by rahim In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010325225333.00ab4260@pop5.inter.nl.net> Message-ID: <161227068680.23782.15351176010204886285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In this doha, the balance is off by one additional matra in the second line. In the second line, the work 'ko' is correct and should not be changed to 'kaha'. The meaning also changes with the change and does not remain constant with the meaning of the original, i.e. If the great ones do little jobs, they are not praised. Just like nobody addresses Hanuman as the 'giridhar'. The above doha alludes to the two mythological episodes. The first is, Lord Krishna, yet a cowhearding youth, carried mount Gowardhan to provide shelter from torrential rains and floods for the residents of the Braja region, got the title of 'Giridhar', i.e. the one who carries/holds a mountain. The second story refers to the episode when Hanuman was sent to find the 'sanjeevani buTi' he carried the entire hill, just like Krishna had done when still a child. however, nobody calls Hanuman the 'Giridhar'. ___________________________________________________________ On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Dick Plukker wrote: > At 17:06 19-3-01 +0530, you wrote: > >There is a small book on Rahim, written by Vijayendra Snatak,and published > >by Sahitya Akademi,New Delhi,1990. It contains the following couplet by Rahim: > > > >Ochhon kaam barhey karen,to na barhai hoye > >Jyon Rahim Hanumant ko, Giridhar kahe na koye. > > > > > >Is the first line correct? > > In 'rahiim ke dohe', published by the 'raa.s.trabhaa.saa pracaar samiti, > vardhaa', 1978, dohaa 121 reads: > > cho.te kaama ba.re kare.m, to na ba.raaii hoi; > jyo.m rahiima hanuma.mta kaha/, giradhara kahe na koi. > > Metrically correct, gives sense, but might well be a lectio facilior: the > common 'cho.te' (small,little) for 'ocho.m' (insignificant), the ending of > which is not clear to me. > > > Dick Plukker > > India Instituut, > Amsterdam > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 26 20:06:16 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 15:06:16 -0500 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068683.23782.18055047860065430431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just as Dominik was surprised that basic Indological research on the Gita has hardly been mentioned, I am surprised to see that no one, as far as I remember, has mentioned that some of the paradoxes in the text may also be explained by pointing out the several text layers in the Gita. This really is an old hat - orientalist, colonialist eh?-, but which older "Hindu" text does not have such layers? To interpret the Upanisads or the Gita as a unitary text is about as bad as doing the same thing with the Hebrew Bible, based on the various Christian or Mormon points of view. (Valid for a Christian/Mormon but telling us little about the authors' intent of the Hebrew Bible). In addition, some 75 years ago, FO Schrader has pointed to the Kashmiri version which is a few dozen Slokas shorter than the Vulgate... which, of course, raised a storm of protest in India (not in Kashmir!). The last detailed critical & historical discussion of the Gita is by M. Jezic, of a few years ago (in a paper in English), [I think in an Indian festschrift ; must check the data], and note the even more detailed one by Malinar, Angelika. Rajavidya : das koenigliche Wissen um Herrschaft und Verzicht ; Studien zur Bhagavadgita / Angelika Malinar. Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1996. xii, 505 p. ; 25 cm. (Purana research publications, Tuebingen, ISSN 0931-9158 ; v. 5) This has been reviewed in IIJ, by JW de Jong I believe, a few years ago... So, perhaps instead of all those inappropriate comparisons with quantum physics or what not, a little reading of the Skt. text with an open mind and an eye to its textual layers would do an INDOLOOGY List good. At least, I thought it was one for Indological Studies, not for broadcasting religious or personal philosophical persuasions, for which we have many other lists... MW. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From kevenkat at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 27 00:14:50 2001 From: kevenkat at YAHOO.COM (Venkat Kesaraju) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 16:14:50 -0800 Subject: On the light side...Vedic CDROMs In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20001212002648.00e498a0@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227068692.23782.5870235676511574090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> HA Ha HA Ha Ha Great !!!! I loved the post. I am waiting for more. We could do with some humor in this forum- if it does not offend anybody. Cheers Venkat --- Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > The following is not to be taken seriously. > > _____________________ > > At 11:49 PM 12/11/2000 -0600, Claude Setzer wrote: > > >What if there had been well made CD-ROM's in Vedic > Times?????????? > > Oh, but there were! > It's just that the technology was lost by the time > of the BrAhmaNas. > However, "The Cybernetic Code of the RomVeda" > requires of an astute > researcher not burdened by decades of boring > linguistic scholarship. > Surely, someone will rise up to the challenge soon > enough. > In the meantime, here are a few hints: > The technology is attributed to Siddhi RAma, "The > Rama of Fantastic Powers" > (not to be confused with Parazu RAma, who came much, > much later). > It was esoterically known as "siddhiH om" which, > thanks to sandhi, becomes > "siddhir om." When repeated correctly, siddhir om, > siddhirom, siddhirom, it > granted the reciter the hidden powers (siddhis) to > burn the disk. > The modern term, Compact Disk, is nothing but a > confused, garbled reading > of modern Indologists. The original name, here > restored for the first time, > is KampakathA Dezika, "The Master of Trembling > Tales" (the reason for such > a name remains obscure). > > What do you think ViSNu's discus -his cakra- > "really" represents? > > Best, > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley ===== VENKAT KESARAJU 10 Petunia Drive Apt# 1K North Brunswick, NJ - 08902 USA Phone:(732)940-1215(H),(201)804-7231(W),(732)768-4123(C) E-mail:kevenkat at yahoo.com,kevenkat at hotmail.com vkesaraju at axc.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Mar 26 22:41:41 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 17:41:41 -0500 Subject: Text layers in the Gita Message-ID: <161227068687.23782.13271432965994135478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re text layers in the Gita see also A.L. Basham, The Origins & Development of Classical Hinduism, chapter 6 The Bhagavad-gita and Theism. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Mon Mar 26 18:23:18 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 19:23:18 +0100 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068677.23782.7675000354667766053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> IMO, comparison of the teaching of Quantum Mechanics to the Gita is appropriate in more ways than one. To me, both Gita and Quantum Mechanics teach some practical methods to do something (live life, predict and compute physical phenomena). This is at an operational level. In the cases of Gita and Quantum Mechanics there is significant disagreement among practitioners about the meaning of what it is that we are doing, with no harm to the operational level. You may fill in a list of different interpretations for the Gita; for Quantum Mechanics there are the Copenhagen interpretation (Bohr), the causal interpretation (Bohm), the many-worlds interpretation (Everett), the transactional interpretation (Cramer), and several others I am not familiar with. Please note that in Quantum Mechanics, all the practitioners come up with the same predictions for experiments, calculate in the same way, etc.; the problems arise, to quote one on-web paper, "... just where concepts like understanding, meaning, or sense are dealt with. They appear when we ask what quantum mechanics might mean for our view of the world (Weltanschauung) or even when we ask questions after the why of the theory in a very broad sense. On this level there certainly is a problem." 95% of the practitioners of physics do not worry about interpretational issues; and neither should practitioners of the Gita (IMO). The conflicts among interpreters are irrelevant to Quantum Mechanics and to Gita (IMO). -Arun Gupta From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Mon Mar 26 18:56:08 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 19:56:08 +0100 Subject: is the Gita dishonest? Message-ID: <161227068678.23782.7677523233050254248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To keep myself out of trouble, I'm using up my second post for today with the following, also from an online essay : The Copenhagen Interpretation was primarily the product of Neils Bohr and Werner Heisenberg, who were strongly supported by Max Born, Wolfgang Pauli and John von Neumann. Among those opposed to the Copenhagen Interpretation have been Albert Einstein, Erwin Schroedinger, Louis de Broglie, Max Planck, David Bohm, Alfred Land?, Karl Popper and Bertrand Russell. While those supporting the Copenhagen Interpretation constitute a "school" and an "orthodoxy", those opposed to it have widely divergent views. But the latter have been uniformly vilified as too simple-minded or too "old fashioned" to understand such "modern" ideas as acausality and positivism. Soviet physicists also opposed the Copenhagen Interpretation, but on the grounds that it is an "idealism", to be contrasted to a "dialectical materialist" view of reality. --- -Arun Gupta From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Mar 27 01:02:44 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 20:02:44 -0500 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <3ABFD1F6.36464CF2@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227068694.23782.10453593028167266578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G. Mueller brings up an important point. However, I would like to suggest that a search for possible layers within the text of the BG and Mbh do not obviate the need to study the received shape of these texts. On the other hand, they offer us a dimension which is not available otherwise. While it is true that the final shape attained by these texts needs to be studied as having influenced their interpretation for most of later period, a reconstruction of earlier layers provides us significant insight into the evolving history (albeit hypothetical) of how the transmitters of the text possibly responded to emerging religious and philosophical trends. The tradition itself admits alternative shapes of the text of the Mbh (cf. manvaadi bhaaratam kecit aastiikaadi tathaapare, and the Suutra reference to Bhaarata-mahaabhaarataacaaryaa.h, suggesting a Bhaarata text different from the Mahaabhaarata). Thus, one direction of study, in my opinion, complements the other. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Gunthard Mueller wrote: > I don't think anybody on this list would argue against the significance of > attempts to see if there is an original version to be found, of identifying > any authentic first text, of analysing and interpreting it. > But-- in the case of the Gita, the Septuaginta and so many other > influential works, it may not have been any Urversions that had the immense > cultural impact, but the derivational packages into which they developed. > So I find it perfectly understandable if these derivational packages are > analysed in the shape and form in which they were presented and through > which they shaped and formed their audience. > > Wouldn't you agree that literary texts can take on a momentum > far beyond the control of the authour. A particular shape may > be imposed (norming/denorming; ie attempts at canonization, > or interpolations, historic layers, or syntheses). A particular function > might be imposed, of which the author may not have dreamt, or a > particular interpretation --maybe quite alien to the original intent--, > to the point of unrecognizability. Ancillary texts (commentaries, > exegetic works, vitae of members of a tradition following this text, ...) > may start surrounding the text, antibody-like. The original cell may > get less and less visible. A larger picture emerges, or many larger pictures. > At this point, the text may have become many texts. > Isn't the Gita a text that took on just such a dynamism of its own. > And isn't it even itself an interpolation in another text. > > I see no contradiction between studying these forms of the texts > and the reconstructed Urtext, as long as one is conscious of the fact that we > are dealing with very different animals. > > On a different note, I believe that some of the matters with which the Gita > or other religious texts are concerned cannot be tackled purely with the > tools of logic, and will therefore never be totally harmonizable, no matter > whether an individual authour writes on them with black ink on white paper > in monitored real time, or whether the text is a historical amalgamation... > > Sorry to Dominik for writing another rather long mail. > If it helps, please consider half of it devoid of meaning... > > Yours, > Gunthard Mueller > > gm at e-ternals.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin Gansten wrote: > > > >This really is an old hat - orientalist, colonialist eh?-, but which older > > >"Hindu" text does not have such layers? To interpret the Upanisads or the > > >Gita as a unitary text is about as bad as doing the same thing with the > > >Hebrew Bible, based on the various Christian or Mormon points of view. > > >(Valid for a Christian/Mormon but telling us little about the authors' > > >intent of the Hebrew Bible). > > > > I would disagree with that, as far as readings of the Gita alone are > > concerned. For one thing, the Hebrew Bible is a far longer text; and from > > what I am given to understand -- though no Hebraist myself -- the books > > comprising it vary considerably in style, etc. The Gita has but 700 or so > > verses (the Kashmiri version, incidentally, is some 45 verses longer, not > > shorter), and the style is internally consistent -- as, in my opinion, is > > the doctrinal content. It is synthetic, certainly, but historically > > multi-layered? I think not. > > > > The traditional Vedantic view of the Gita *and* all the (classical) > > Upanishads as a unitary corpus (zaastraikaarthya), on the other hand, *is* > > comparable to a unitarist interpretation of the Bible. Whether we need to > > label it 'bad', even from a scholarly point of view, is a different matter. > > In my view, ahistorical readings of a text are not necessarily 'bad' unless > > actually posing as historical. > > > > Martin Gansten > > Lund University > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Mar 27 04:29:08 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 23:29:08 -0500 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010326234948.007ff9c0@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227068696.23782.2797590166302690134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These are the joys of quoting from memory, away from the texts, and using similes: 1. Similes carry only so far: 5% or 95%. Mine was merely given to drive the point home, comparandum: reading ANY text as unitary, not to dissect/interpret the Bible. Result: the author's intent (mine) has already been misunderstood and reinterpreted a few hours after writing: >I would disagree ... For one thing, the Hebrew Bible is a far longer text;.... >-- the books comprising it vary considerably in style, etc. They are not even all in the same language, Hebrew. Some parts are in Aramaic. See above. Point is: they are read as a *unitary* text --and in antiquated *English etc.* at that-- by most (not specially educated) Christians, Mormons. >The Gita has but 700 or so >verses (the Kashmiri version, incidentally, is some 45 verses longer, not >shorter), sorry, my memory! > and the style is internally consistent 2. But that is precicely the bone of contention, and has been for 150 years or so. I am not going to start discussing that question again here. I merely wanted to draw Members' attention to it. Since it had not been mentioned. However, small point: the grammar, for example, isn't so consistent: Krishna sometime talks "Vedic" and says (made up example) maa ..... (several words)... vadhiiH! And in another section, he speaks 'good' Epic, but bad non-Paninean Skt., such as (made up) maagaccha! (univerb., with wrongly put imperative). Not the same style, as far as I am concerned: Old fashioned (Vedic) VS. common North Indian Epic Koine. No time to check exact examples. You can find them easily enough if you wish. >-- as, in my opinion, is >the doctrinal content. 3. That precisely has been denied by some. They see here some 4 different doctrines. See Jezic and / or Molinar (or many older publications) for details. > It is synthetic, certainly, but historically >multi-layered? I think not. Then, all 4 points of view are contemporary? Fine, but even then it can be shown that one at least, (Ksatriyas') killing with no "guilt" attached, is quite old, and seen in the Veda. >The traditional Vedantic view of the Gita *and* all the (classical) >Upanishads as a unitary corpus ... *is* >comparable to a unitarist interpretation of the Bible. Whether we need to >label it 'bad', even from a scholarly point of view, is a different matter. 5. Of course it is bad: yet, note that I merely called it "bad" only from the point of view of the authors' *original* intent. And ADDED that it is *fine* in the Christian, Mormon case (or the Vedantic view of the Upanisads), from THEIR (later) point of view. Even a scholarly one, but *only* if one studies these *later* traditions... <> >In my view, ahistorical readings of a text are not necessarily 'bad' unless >actually posing as historical. Which is of course how the Gita is usually interpreted, as the unified text of the (real) words of (a historical) Krishna, Kali Yuga date attached. -- As one high level Delhi politician, well before the BJP, once told me: "Since sound is eternal, what we need is just the proper type of radio to listen to Krishna!" I agree. This *is a challenge* for the high tech contributors on this list. Would love to see it (-:-) Solves all our philological problems. But until that very distant day ... back to square one. ................ ( Well, small correction, I hear that we can at least listen, if not to Krishna himself, then to Vyaasa giving his version, once per year [on Janai Purnima?], at Poona... Through someone, sitting in coils of wire connected to a mosquito screen window, shaking to and fro, hence: Kampakatha-Dezika (Epic, for *Dezastha). Pune inhabitants will know better .... Madhav? ) MW ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Mon Mar 26 21:49:48 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 01 23:49:48 +0200 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068685.23782.16847841211826001824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This really is an old hat - orientalist, colonialist eh?-, but which older >"Hindu" text does not have such layers? To interpret the Upanisads or the >Gita as a unitary text is about as bad as doing the same thing with the >Hebrew Bible, based on the various Christian or Mormon points of view. >(Valid for a Christian/Mormon but telling us little about the authors' >intent of the Hebrew Bible). I would disagree with that, as far as readings of the Gita alone are concerned. For one thing, the Hebrew Bible is a far longer text; and from what I am given to understand -- though no Hebraist myself -- the books comprising it vary considerably in style, etc. The Gita has but 700 or so verses (the Kashmiri version, incidentally, is some 45 verses longer, not shorter), and the style is internally consistent -- as, in my opinion, is the doctrinal content. It is synthetic, certainly, but historically multi-layered? I think not. The traditional Vedantic view of the Gita *and* all the (classical) Upanishads as a unitary corpus (zaastraikaarthya), on the other hand, *is* comparable to a unitarist interpretation of the Bible. Whether we need to label it 'bad', even from a scholarly point of view, is a different matter. In my view, ahistorical readings of a text are not necessarily 'bad' unless actually posing as historical. Martin Gansten Lund University From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Mon Mar 26 23:34:14 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 01:34:14 +0200 Subject: Text layers in the Gita Message-ID: <161227068689.23782.5608857729519526664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't think anybody on this list would argue against the significance of attempts to see if there is an original version to be found, of identifying any authentic first text, of analysing and interpreting it. But-- in the case of the Gita, the Septuaginta and so many other influential works, it may not have been any Urversions that had the immense cultural impact, but the derivational packages into which they developed. So I find it perfectly understandable if these derivational packages are analysed in the shape and form in which they were presented and through which they shaped and formed their audience. Wouldn't you agree that literary texts can take on a momentum far beyond the control of the authour. A particular shape may be imposed (norming/denorming; ie attempts at canonization, or interpolations, historic layers, or syntheses). A particular function might be imposed, of which the author may not have dreamt, or a particular interpretation --maybe quite alien to the original intent--, to the point of unrecognizability. Ancillary texts (commentaries, exegetic works, vitae of members of a tradition following this text, ...) may start surrounding the text, antibody-like. The original cell may get less and less visible. A larger picture emerges, or many larger pictures. At this point, the text may have become many texts. Isn't the Gita a text that took on just such a dynamism of its own. And isn't it even itself an interpolation in another text. I see no contradiction between studying these forms of the texts and the reconstructed Urtext, as long as one is conscious of the fact that we are dealing with very different animals. On a different note, I believe that some of the matters with which the Gita or other religious texts are concerned cannot be tackled purely with the tools of logic, and will therefore never be totally harmonizable, no matter whether an individual authour writes on them with black ink on white paper in monitored real time, or whether the text is a historical amalgamation... Sorry to Dominik for writing another rather long mail. If it helps, please consider half of it devoid of meaning... Yours, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com Martin Gansten wrote: > >This really is an old hat - orientalist, colonialist eh?-, but which older > >"Hindu" text does not have such layers? To interpret the Upanisads or the > >Gita as a unitary text is about as bad as doing the same thing with the > >Hebrew Bible, based on the various Christian or Mormon points of view. > >(Valid for a Christian/Mormon but telling us little about the authors' > >intent of the Hebrew Bible). > > I would disagree with that, as far as readings of the Gita alone are > concerned. For one thing, the Hebrew Bible is a far longer text; and from > what I am given to understand -- though no Hebraist myself -- the books > comprising it vary considerably in style, etc. The Gita has but 700 or so > verses (the Kashmiri version, incidentally, is some 45 verses longer, not > shorter), and the style is internally consistent -- as, in my opinion, is > the doctrinal content. It is synthetic, certainly, but historically > multi-layered? I think not. > > The traditional Vedantic view of the Gita *and* all the (classical) > Upanishads as a unitary corpus (zaastraikaarthya), on the other hand, *is* > comparable to a unitarist interpretation of the Bible. Whether we need to > label it 'bad', even from a scholarly point of view, is a different matter. > In my view, ahistorical readings of a text are not necessarily 'bad' unless > actually posing as historical. > > Martin Gansten > Lund University From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Tue Mar 27 06:30:42 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 08:30:42 +0200 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068699.23782.10901184907222140769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I haven't been following the Gita thread, but judging from the tone of Michael Witzel's latest post, I assume that it has (like most discussions on this list) already generated a good deal of heat. Not wishing to be dragged into one of these pointless back-and-forths, I will refrain from further posting after this one. I simply wished to make two points: that Witzel's comparison with the Hebrew Bible was an inapt one, and that scholars are not unanimous in considering the Gita historically multi-layered. >Mine was merely given to drive the point home, comparandum: reading ANY >text as unitary, not to dissect/interpret the Bible. I am not sure I understand this. Do you really mean to say that, axiomatically, NO text can ever be unitary? This is what it sounds like to me; but the idea seems rather a fantastic one -- especially if we are discussing a text that fills only some 30-40 printed pages. >Not the same style, as far as I am concerned: >Old fashioned (Vedic) VS. common North Indian Epic Koine. >No time to check exact examples. You can find them easily enough if you wish. Having just completed a Sanskrit-to-Swedish translation of the Gita (the first for nearly a century: Stockholm, forthcoming), I am aware of the examples. It would be easy to satirize over this by 'reconstructing' a text where the passages containing maa + augmentless aorist make up the earliest strata, but I'll refrain. The argument, in my opinion, carries little weight. Surely it is not necessary to point out that archaic turns of phrase frequently survive changes in grammar? We all use such archaisms in everyday speech. >Then, all 4 points of view are contemporary? Fine, but even then it can be >shown that one at least, (Ksatriyas') killing with no "guilt" attached, >is quite old, and seen in the Veda. Nobody is denying (or at least I am not) that the Gita builds on and attempts to harmonize older sources and ideas. The question I was addressing is whether the Gita itself (those 30-40 pages) was composed in 'layers', over time -- something I find highly unlikely. The Gita is a synthetic text: it starts out with conflicting points of view and tries to synthesize them. But synthesis doesn't always sit well with the scholarly community, which makes its living chiefly by analysis! >Of course it is bad: yet, note that I merely called it "bad" only from >the point of view of the authors' *original* intent. Then you would deny that a later text could throw any light on the original intent of an earlier text (by dealing with the same subjects, proceeding from the same sort of experiences, etc)? I disagree with that, though I wouldn't go to the extent of saying that 'of course' you are wrong... That's it. Nothing further from me on this subject. Regards, Martin Gansten From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 27 18:09:01 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 10:09:01 -0800 Subject: Text layers of the Gita Message-ID: <161227068717.23782.11912174549139020062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professors Vassilkov, G. v. Simson and Indologists, Alexander C. Soper, Literary evidence for early Buddhist art in China, p. 212 "Finally, Maitreya was the Buddha-to-be, who in the far distant future is to return to a purified and happy world, attain Enlightenment, and lead countless hosts to salvation. ... The last-named role must have been the primary one. It seems clear that Maitreya was first of all, the Buddhist solution to the yearning for a Messiah that took on such strength over the whole Near and Middle East in the centuries after Alexander. The strongest encouragement toward defining His personality and mission probably came into India from the outside world. The Indian mind, with its instinct for expansion and multiplication, was entirely capable of projecting the Buddha idea into the future. ... The Maitreya myth was unlike all other Buddhist projections across space and time in being unique, not merely a duplication or an equivalent of something else. .. 'Saakyamuni had come to be counted the seventh of those who had come in succession to preach and to convert, Maitrreya was the single saviour imaginable in the future.... The similarity between these themes and those of the great saviour cults of the lands farther to the west is unmistakable. (though the Buddhist version was purged of all terror and destruction, and Maitreya was pictured neither as a conqueror nor as a judge.) In view of the general pressure exerted by Iranian culture on Northwest India in the age of foreign rulers between the Mauryan and Guptan dynasties, it is most likely that the resemblance points to Persia as a source. In this connection there may be more than a coincidence in the fact that the very name Maitreya is phonetically close to Mitra; and that His occasional pseudonym Ajita has the same meaning as Mithra's epithet, which the Romans rendered as "invictus". .. The belief in Maitreya's golden age must have developed fairly early, since it is recorded in Hinayana and Mahayana texts, and there in the Pali versions as well as in the Sanskrit sUtras that were translated into Chinese." Given that Dualism from Iran exerted a wide ranging influence, For example, in the last chapter on apocalypse in the Bible, does Krushna of the Bhagavad Gita represent a Messiah who descends to earth and preach to the embattled people? In the Tamil bhakti texts that swept across all of India in the next centuries, we do not find mentions of God coming and preaching to devotees. Instead, it is the devotee who always petitions and begs for grace 'aruL'. In the whole of Indian literature, gItA is unique in that here the God gives personal advice. Does this theme, like Maitreya Bodhisattva, come from Northwest and Iran? For the insertion of Gita into MBh later, see the 1969 article in IIJ: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9901&L=indology&P=R18704 Politicians like Gandhi used gita as though does not mention the benefit of maintaining the varnashrama system. Gandhi, knowing no samskrut, used Besant's english version. Thanks, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Tue Mar 27 15:29:13 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 10:29:13 -0500 Subject: SV: Ref Buddhist studies In-Reply-To: <01C0B5F1.2FBAF020.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227068707.23782.15233751116082411351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Unitary visions of sacred works 1. Unitary visions of sacred works rest on the conviction that the higher truths are . Any tampering with them is inappropriate. 2. In the Hindu tradition, this thesis was handled by independent thinkers in at least two ways: (a) The higher truths may be looked upon from different perspectives (darshanas). (b) This thesis is unacceptable (the heterodox schools). 3. The existence of countless in the Hindu world points to a healthy diversity of views/philosophies/paths/ which could, by and large, co-exist. 4. However, just as it is easier for an external intruder (colonizing power) to , in the modern world, it is easier for an indigenous government to . Hence the need to encourage and establish the thesis that there is but one origin/foundation for everything in a culture/religion/nation. 5. Unfortunately, historical scholarship is not always cooperative in this matter. Such scholarship is therefore looked upon with suspicion, and this leads to conflicts. V. V. Raman March 27, 2001 From zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE Tue Mar 27 08:44:31 2001 From: zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 10:44:31 +0200 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010327083042.007fc870@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227068703.23782.8364716737070639815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Die, 27 M?r 2001 schrieb Martin Gansten: > >Of course it is bad: yet, note that I merely called it "bad" only from > >the point of view of the authors' *original* intent. > > Then you would deny that a later text could throw any light on the original > intent of an earlier text (by dealing with the same subjects, proceeding > from the same sort of experiences, etc)? > Having just completed a Sanskrit-to-Swedish translation of the Gita [...] I hope that in your translation you have translated verse 12:1 in such a way that _avyakta_ refers to prak.rti, like in Saa:nkhya (which is how Madhva sees it), and not to the nirgu.na brahman (as in Sankara's view). See my article "Is Krishna Seen Or Not? Madhv?c?rya on Bhagavadg?t? 12:1," Journal of Vaisnava Studies 5 (3) (1997), pp. 55-63. At the time, when I was studying Madhva, I found it highly refreshing to see how also in India in the 13th century a theologian could, through a critical reading of the text, turn to an older historical layer for support of his innovative doctrine. And Madhva's commentary is a nice, old example of how a later text can bring out the original intent of an earlier one after that intent has been obscured by another interpretation (in German I would say an 'Umdeutung' rather than a 'Deutung') for a few centuries. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik, Universit?t M?nchen From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Mar 27 17:31:01 2001 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 11:31:01 -0600 Subject: Text layers in the Gita Message-ID: <161227068701.23782.6276748333250449994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is any historical analysis of the layers of the text of the Gita capable of demonstrating that there was an earlier version in which Arjuna began the battle with compulsion , as a pacifist, and a later version with Krishna's sermon making him joyfully enter the battle ? If it were so, a historical growth from pacifism to agonism brought about by a certain philosophic school/social or caste order located at a particular period in Indian histiory would be discernable and would be of some use to history writing. If not analysis of textual layers proves nothing more than the fact that the text has grown, something that traditional pundits have also known for ages. Also it implies a debunking of the cultural preservation of the text through a combined effort of pundits, performers, vyaasas and phiosophers to make meaning relevant for the lives of the people as a living not just 'historical' text. Has anybody been able to isolate the text of jaya, bhaarat and MBh? Would like to learn of this. One has to take the Gita as a solely 'spoken' and preserved text to see its justification, both wordly and spiritual , for a just and unavoidable war. One may disagree with Krishna and say that even after the denial of five villages Pandavas should not have fought their brothers to commit the sin of fatrcide or civil war. But I dont see what textual layers prove or how Gita becomes a warmongering or'dishonest' book. best wishes, Bharat Gupt Associate Professor, Delhi University, From ramesh at ITS.CALTECH.EDU Tue Mar 27 19:32:19 2001 From: ramesh at ITS.CALTECH.EDU (Ramesh Srinivasan) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 11:32:19 -0800 Subject: MahiSAsuramardini translation Message-ID: <161227068721.23782.13380568687223758467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for translations of the "MahiSAsuramardini stotra" (the first verse starts with "ayi girinandini nandita medini ..."). This is a very popular stotra sung as part of NavarAtri worship. I am also interested in the mythology behind this hymn. Any pointers in this regard would be most helpful. Thank you, Ramesh From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Tue Mar 27 10:59:45 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 12:59:45 +0200 Subject: Bhagavadgita 12.1 In-Reply-To: <01032712125903.00471@vidyasagara> Message-ID: <161227068705.23782.15962849959483542950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I hope that in your translation you have translated verse 12:1 in such a >way that _avyakta_ refers to prak.rti, like in Saa:nkhya (which is how >Madhva sees it), and not to the nirgu.na brahman (as in Sankara's >view). I follow neither commentator -- nor even Ramanuja, though his interpretation is, in my opinion, generally more consistent with the tone of the text. As for the passage you mention, I have translated ak.saram avyaktam with 'det of?rg?rbara, oformade'. In my notes I have relied on the internal consistency which I see in the text, relating the list of attributes in 12.1-3 (ak.sara, anirdezya, avyakta, sarvatraga, acintya, kuu.tastha, acala, dhruva) to such passages as 2.24-25 and 15.16 (nitya, sarvagata, sthaa.nu, acala, sanaatana, avyakta, acintya, avikaarya ... ak.sara, kuu.tastha). To me it seems clear that they refer to the individual self, as opposed to prak.rti or iizvara. I will read your JVS article with pleasure. My views are presented in the current issue of the same journal (or so I'm told -- I haven't seen it yet). Regards, Martin Gansten From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Tue Mar 27 18:55:05 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 13:55:05 -0500 Subject: Uninformed discussion on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068719.23782.11104790779780567871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hey, wow, this is what I was looking for! Glad to know I'm not the only Indologist who loves to crank up _physical Graffiti_ almost as much as he loves to read the giitaa-- even if I do get my bassists and Indologists mixed up sometimes. I have long been planning to translate a selection of Zep lyrics into Sanskrit. Choosing appropriate metres will be an interesting challenge. But that comes after my rendering of Jewel's _Night Without Armor_-- as Petrarch with his favorite Decameron tale, I feel that her masterpiece deserves to be rescued from the perishability of the vernacular. But usually only after I have ingested a substantial amount of Soma. P On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Phillip Ernest wrote: > > > > yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of > > > Wasn't he the bassist for Led Zeppelin? > > Good god, no! Your are thinking of John Paul Jones. To say that JPJ's > latest solo album Zooma is an extraordinary musical achievement, although > at times overwhelming, especially in its opening tracks, Zooma and Grind, > which seem to refer powerfully to the relentless mechanisation of modern > life, and that his use of eight and more strings on his bass guitars is > heroic, but that the dependence on Pro Tools in production seems to take > away from the naturalness and musicality of which, as is demonstrated in > old Zep tracks such as Ramble On, Jones is eminently capable and which > are, dare one say it, more succesfully achieved in the recent virtuoso > release Out Bound by bassist Stu Hamm, would take us far beyond the remit > of the INDOLOGY discussion. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Tue Mar 27 16:06:36 2001 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 18:06:36 +0200 Subject: SanAtana Dharma Message-ID: <161227068709.23782.13919432266675175828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi! Many hindus have for a couple of centuries called their religion for "SanAtana Dharma". Do this refer only to the exercise of hinduims by the hindus or do it also include the religion as "an act of God" as well, like sRSTi, sthiti, saMhAra, anugraha etc. Jon. From juftina at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 27 17:22:10 2001 From: juftina at HOTMAIL.COM (tina debruyn) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 18:22:10 +0100 Subject: Sankat Mochan Message-ID: <161227068713.23782.11496801492500788536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaste, Is there anybody who can give me a copy of an English translation of the Sankat Mochan please? Thanks for helping, Tina De Bruyn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Mar 27 17:53:42 2001 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 20:53:42 +0300 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010327083042.007fc870@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227068711.23782.10916421638939613380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is a pity that Martin Gansten took decision to refrain from further posting on the subject. Otherwise I would ask him how it is possible that a supposedly unitary text - the GItA - just after its culmination point, i.e. after the inspired theistic hymn and the magnificent poetic vision of VizvarUpa in Chapter 12, suddenly turns to rather dull JnAna-oriented, SAMkyaic speculations and classifications, and further on, up to the end of the poem in Chapter 18, with an exception of some small "synthetic" interpolations, in letter and in spirit contradicts the GItA's basic ideas (of karma-yoga and theism/bhakti), but resembles rather the SAMkhyaic AnugItA - a text written at least 6 centuries later than the GItA's "core". And, after all, many Ancient Indian texts grew as a result of adding subsequent "interpolation layers" in the end; as, e.g., the first that comes to mind now - Milindapanha, whose first chapters were supposedly written in NW India in the very beginning of 1st century AD, while its last part - in Shri Lanka at least 5 or 4 centuries later. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov Tue, 27 Mar 101 09:30 +0300 MSK Martin Gansten wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: Not wishing to be > dragged into one of these pointless back-and-forths, I will refrain from > further posting after this one. > >Mine was merely given to drive the point home, comparandum: reading ANY > >text as unitary, not to dissect/interpret the Bible. > Do you really mean to say that, > axiomatically, NO text can ever be unitary? ... the idea seems rather a fantastic one -- especially if we are > discussing a text that fills only some 30-40 printed pages. > > Nobody is denying (or at least I am not) that the Gita builds on and > attempts to harmonize older sources and ideas. The question I was > addressing is whether the Gita itself (those 30-40 pages) was composed in > 'layers', over time -- something I find highly unlikely. The Gita is a > synthetic text: it starts out with conflicting points of view and tries to > synthesize them. But synthesis doesn't always sit well with the scholarly > community, which makes its living chiefly by analysis! > That's it. Nothing further from me on this subject. > > Regards, > Martin Gansten > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Tue, 27 Mar 101 19:51 +0300 MSK From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Mar 27 20:12:43 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 21:12:43 +0100 Subject: Uninformed discussion on the Gita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068724.23782.518999170628706190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > The discussion of the Gita this month has generated 50 messages to date, > yet not one citation of Jean Przyluski's famous and fundamental study of > the work. How is this possible? Sorry everyone. It wasn't Przyluski's book I was thinking of, it was Lamotte's _Notes sur la Gita_ (Paris 1929). I was dredging up a memory from twenty-five years ago, so perhaps I can be forgiven. As a student under Gombrich and Zaehner, I remember being told that without first reading this little study by Lamotte, I should consider that I had nothing to offer by way of informed comment on the Gita. In his own Gita book, Zaehner makes a rather provocative, but nevertheless valid point that Lamotte and other authors he has mentioned "unlike most commentators on the Gita, were primarily intereseted in the actual content of the Gita, not in what they thought that content ought to be." -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From s-lindquist at THE-FOUNDRY.NET Tue Mar 27 18:05:53 2001 From: s-lindquist at THE-FOUNDRY.NET (Steven E. Lindquist) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 01 23:35:53 +0530 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <2001Mar27.205343@YV1041.spb.edu> Message-ID: <161227068715.23782.14054227016218836494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Note: I am stepping away from the argument of BhG as unitary or not, as I more concerned here with the larger issues of method] Is it not possible, however, to look at a text as both a series of layers AND as a unified whole? An academic double-vision, as it were? That is, by looking at the intentions/arguments of various layers of a text along with the intentions/arguments of the text as a whole, we can then see how these two aspects intersect? Witzel has (perhaps not directly enough for some) argued as much in a Rgveda paper on the interaction of the Kuru 'state' and the books of the Rgveda reaching there present form (citation not at hand). It seems to me that this is an important way of understanding historically why and how texts are brought together, how they become thought of as unitary, and how they gain the authority that they have. This also seems an interesting means for attempting to theorize what a redactor may have intended (cf. Patton's "Myth as Argument"), how texts become canon, and why people believe what they believe. Perhaps this is not completely appealing to people who do have faith in the particular text, idea, or god, etc. under analysis, but it seems to me to be at least a sympathetic, yet historically informed, way to approach these issues. regards, s -- Steven E. Lindquist email: s-lindquist at the-foundry.net In the US: In India: Doctoral Candidate AIIS Junior Fellow/Affiliated Research Scholar Dept. of Asian Studies Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute University of TX at Austin Pune, Maharashtra -- From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Mar 27 22:56:35 2001 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 01:56:35 +0300 Subject: Text layers of the Gita In-Reply-To: <20010327180901.91914.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068726.23782.17050893341890139388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tue, 27 Mar 101 21:09 +0300 MSK Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Given that Dualism from Iran exerted a wide ranging influence, for example, > in the last chapter on apocalypse in the Bible, does Krushna > of the Bhagavad Gita represent a Messiah who descends to earth > and preach to the embattled people? In the Tamil bhakti texts that swept > across all of India in the next centuries, we do not find mentions > of God coming and preaching to devotees. Instead, it is the devotee > who always petitions and begs for grace 'aruL'. In the whole > of Indian literature, gItA is unique in that here the God gives > personal advice. Does this theme, like Maitreya Bodhisattva, come > from Northwest and Iran? Dear Professor Madhuresan, I would better say that the idea of a Savior did not necessarily come from the West, but rather that it was an idea which appeared almost simultaneously in different parts of the ancient civilized world in the so-called "Axial period" - when archaic, mythological religions, based on the concept of "Eternal Return", were replaced by the soteriological (Salvation) religions. Historically the idea of King-Savior seems to be recorded first of all in Iran, but it does not mean that all other ancient peoples merely borrowed it from Iranians. We know that in India the cult of Vasudeva existed already in Panini's time (5th century BC). And we know also from the MahAbhArata that "Vasudeva" was in fact something like a term for a God's incarnation on Earth, a Messiah: suffice it to say that, according to the Mbh, Krishna had to fight against some "false Vasudevas", who had appeared in different kingdoms of India. And there was also a definitely historical Indian "King-Savior" - Ashoka. At the same time similiar ideas spread even in China where Iranian or Greek influence is highly problematic... Sorry, it is too late now and I have no more energy and time to dwell on this interesting topic. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Wed, 28 Mar 101 00:57 +0300 MSK From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 28 01:07:39 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 02:07:39 +0100 Subject: SanAtana Dharma Message-ID: <161227068728.23782.8486172051625871057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Many hindus have for a couple of centuries called their religion for >"SanAtana Dharma". Do this refer only to the exercise of hinduims by >the hindus or do it also include the religion as "an act of God" as well, >like sRSTi, sthiti, saMhAra, anugraha etc. Jon. The label, sanAtana has a specific meaning as it is used for a century or so in Punjab. I am enjoying the observations of Agehananda Bharati, The Denial of Caste in Modern Urban parlance, 1987 "the most conspicuous example being of course that of the Arya Samaj (Jones 1966), where every member or believer is encouraged to call himself or herself a brahmin by adding "Sharma" to the name. This, in the fourth generation of Arya Samajists, has since been passed on like a "true" caste name, from father to son and daughter. This causes much mirth among articulate non-Arya samaji Hindus, ie., sanAtanis [3], who scoff at "Sharmas" when they suspect that they are *us taraH ke sharma* "Sharmas of *that* kind", ie., Arya Samajis whose forebears were really of low caste background, and that their conversion to the Samaj made them or their ancestors think they were actual brahmins in the traditional, sanatani sense of the word." "[3] It should be registered that the identification as "sanAtani" (i.e., belonging to the "eternal" religion) in the Panjab and closely adjacent regions is purely privative, quite different from other parts of the country. In the Panjab, "I am a sanAtani" means only "I am not an Arya Samaji" and "I am not a Sikh" (and of course, not a Muslim or Christian) much as the Hawaiian Japanese statement, "I am a Buddhist" means little but "I am not a Christian." ---------------------- Agehananda Bharati also writes elsewhere in the same paper: " During World War II many English girls befriended by black G.I.s thought they were American Indians. It is said that whenever a British girl asked a soldier, "are you American Indian" he would say "yea, yea, babe, American Indian." There was, in that ad hoc hierarchy, nothing wrong with being black, but American Indian was a notch nobler, and more productive." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Mar 28 06:32:33 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 07:32:33 +0100 Subject: SanAtana Dharma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068730.23782.2633335472065359989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This sounds unlikely. Young British women of that period were great cinema goers, and knew a good deal about Americans from Hollywood films. (Not much to do with Indology, I know, but when has that ever stopped us?) Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Venkatraman Iyer writes >Agehananda Bharati also writes elsewhere in the same paper: >" During World War II many English girls befriended by >black G.I.s thought they were American Indians. It is >said that whenever a British girl asked a soldier, >"are you American Indian" he would say "yea, yea, babe, >American Indian." There was, in that ad hoc hierarchy, >nothing wrong with being black, but American Indian >was a notch nobler, and more productive." From jtheve at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Wed Mar 28 15:19:03 2001 From: jtheve at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Jose Thevercad) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 10:19:03 -0500 Subject: Mayans and Mayamuni Message-ID: <161227068734.23782.2093176688755490189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the latest scholarly position on the early 20th century theory that the Mayan civilization of Central America derives from ancient Indian civilization, spreading to Central America from India via South East Asia? Does the Central American 'Maya' refer to the Mayamuni found in the Epics and in vastusastraic texts? Jose Thevercad From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Mar 28 17:01:39 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 12:01:39 -0500 Subject: RSG: Needed: TRANSLATOR OF ASSAMESE "RAMAYANA" FOLIO Message-ID: <161227068739.23782.6182773644140733524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have any suggestions for Ken Robbins? Please respond directly to him at rajanawab at aol.com Thanks. David Magier ---------- From: Ken Robbins Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 18:45:27 EST Subject: Needed: TRANSLATER OF ASSAMESE "RAMAYANA" FOLIO To: magier at columbia.edu Dear David, Could you post this non-Rajasthan request on the RSG list? I have, what I believe to be, an 18th century folio from an Assamese "Ramayana". Does anyone know anyone who could read the inscription? Thank you Ken Robbins From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Wed Mar 28 11:32:12 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 12:32:12 +0100 Subject: Text layers in the Gita Message-ID: <161227068732.23782.1765933210704843025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Otherwise I would ask him how it is possible that a supposedly unitary text - the GItA - just after its culmination point, i.e. after the inspired theistic hymn and the magnificent poetic vision of VizvarUpa in Chapter 12, suddenly turns to rather dull JnAna-oriented, SAMkyaic speculations and classifications...." Because the author was not looking for a Pulitzer Prize, was not out to create a work of literature ? Is it only "devotees" who come to the Gita with preconceptions of what it should be ? -Arun Gupta From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Mar 28 20:46:11 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 15:46:11 -0500 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT: Overseas Director Message-ID: <161227068742.23782.10945561576260263164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the JOBS section of SARAI. Please contact job posters directly for any further information. David Magier ======== "Applications are called for the position of part-time Overseas Director of the American Institute for Sri Lankan Studies(AISLS) for all or part of the year 2001-2002. Applicants should possess a PhD, have a scholarly agenda in Sri Lanka, must be a member of AISLS, and agree to spend 15% of their time working in conjunction with the Executive Officer of the AISLS Sri Lanka Office. The Sri Lanka Office operates under the direction of the Executive Committee of AISLS. Preference will be given to applicants with administrative experience. The remuneration is fixed at $6000 a year but a shorter appointment can be negotiated and the remuneration will be pro-rated. The Overseas Director will have office space and computer facilities at the Sri Lanka Office and will work with the full time Executive Officer of that office in a variety of functions including assisting US scholars in Sri Lanka, cultivating relationships with Sri Lankan institutions, assisting US scholars to obtain materials published in Sri Lanka, organizing workshops and facilitating collaborative ventures. Applicants should sent a letter of interest and a cv to Chandra R. de Silva, President AISLS, Department of History, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia 23529, E mail: cdesilva at odu.edu " From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 28 21:40:14 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 16:40:14 -0500 Subject: Indian Gazeteers Search Message-ID: <161227068744.23782.17496000227338663553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dan, LC has practically all of it frequently in multiple editions, and a year or so ago bought what is hopefully all of it in the IDC microform editions. Alternatively, you can look at FirstSearch limiting the search to WorldCat, which is a version of OCLC, the gigantic online union catalog which supports among other things the interlibrary loan system. I would also expect the Research Triangle universities would have most of this. Contact Avinash Maheshwary the South Asia Bibliographer at Duke . Good luck, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> "J. Daniel White" 03/28 11:54 AM >>> Fellow Indologists, In trying to locate the library availability in the U.S. of the colonial Indian gazeteers, I have tried both major U.S. library search engines, First Search and Eureka, with little success. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks. Dan White ================================================================= J. Daniel White, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Studies Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Charlotte 9201 University City Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28223 USA Telephone: (704) 687-4601 Fax: (704) 687-3002 Email: jdwhite at email.uncc.edu From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Wed Mar 28 16:54:14 2001 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 16:54:14 +0000 Subject: Indian Gazeteers Search Message-ID: <161227068740.23782.18369501152138241931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fellow Indologists, In trying to locate the library availability in the U.S. of the colonial Indian gazeteers, I have tried both major U.S. library search engines, First Search and Eureka, with little success. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks. Dan White ================================================================= J. Daniel White, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Studies Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Charlotte 9201 University City Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28223 USA Telephone: (704) 687-4601 Fax: (704) 687-3002 Email: jdwhite at email.uncc.edu From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Mar 28 21:56:04 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 16:56:04 -0500 Subject: Thrasher to India Message-ID: <161227068755.23782.13058123286078816452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be on leave in India from April 3 to April 18. I will be attending the Delhi World Sanskrit Conference, consulting with our field office, and visiting a couple of antiquarian dealers in Varanasi. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Mar 28 15:33:02 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 17:33:02 +0200 Subject: SV: Mayans and Mayamuni Message-ID: <161227068737.23782.220499109236506881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jose Thevercad [SMTP:jtheve at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA] skrev 28. mars 2001 17:19: > What is the latest scholarly position on the early 20th century theory that > the Mayan civilization of Central America derives from ancient Indian > civilization, spreading to Central America from India via South East Asia? > Does the Central American 'Maya' refer to the Mayamuni found in the Epics and > in vastusastraic texts? This is not a theory taken seriously by scholarship. It is rather due to some amateur enthousiasts' imagination. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Mar 29 02:55:18 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 18:55:18 -0800 Subject: Book help? Message-ID: <161227068750.23782.12978771522740512295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know where I can buy a new or used copy of H. Falk's _Schrift im alten Indien_ (1993), which I need quickly? Neither Stanford nor UC Berkeley currently has a copy, and the book is out of print. I'd also be happy to borrow a copy from anyone for a day or so, if he or she were willing to FedEx it to me overnight (charging my FedEx account). I would have it back in their hands in less than a week. If any of my Indology friends can help, please email me directly, and don't respond on List. Thanks! From Sherabx at AOL.COM Thu Mar 29 01:57:48 2001 From: Sherabx at AOL.COM (Sherab Ebin) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 01 20:57:48 -0500 Subject: Addresses' Message-ID: <161227068748.23782.764214964835515009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does amyone know the email or snail mail addresses of a group of grad students and professors who were at U.C,. berkeley from'72 to '85 or so, To limit the query, i am searching out people in sanskrit, hindi, prakrits, tibetan, Buddhist studies, chinese, japanese. if any of you are still around, you may remember me. regards, sherab ebin email sherabx at aol.com much love, From lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Wed Mar 28 22:32:24 2001 From: lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Lukas Werth) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 00:32:24 +0200 Subject: demons and possession in old sources Message-ID: <161227068746.23782.2966746539333829069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody suggest old sources to me which deal with demon (bhut, pret, Tamil pey) possession and exorcism - preferably from 1200 AD downwards? Lukas Werth From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 29 14:47:54 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 06:47:54 -0800 Subject: Text layers in the Gita Message-ID: <161227068756.23782.12156571744164857301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Finally, an argument about chronological layers in the Gita needs >to clearly state at what point of time the Gita came to be seen as >an independent text to be studied, instead of being merely a part >of the great epic. Was it considered independent text first by Sankaracharya? What are the quotations of BhG in pre-Sankaran Sanskrit texts? Interestingly, there is no direct (or urging Arjuna to fight) mention of Gita in Alvars' bhakti poetry. Are there any? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Mar 29 07:53:45 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 08:53:45 +0100 Subject: Text layers in the Gita (fwd) Message-ID: <161227068753.23782.16597106851385058951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:30:10 -0000 From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Text layers in the Gita Hello Dominik, I've temporarily unsubscribed from the Indology list, as I won't be able to check my email regularly for now. Will rejoin later. I just wanted to make a couple of points on the Gita thread, which you could forward to the list, if you feel it's okay. If the jnana-yoga and Samkhya related enumerations in the last few chapters of the text are late additions to a text that reaches its climax in Krishna's theophany, then the references to Samkhya and jnana-yoga in all the earlier chapters should also be suspected. On the other hand, verse 3 in chapter 3 clearly states that jnana- yoga is for the Samkhyan, while karma-yoga is for the Yogin. This theme occurs throughout chapters 2 and 3, which form Krishna's immediate answer to Arjuna's quandary about the impending war. This jnana vs. karma argument closely parallels the age-old tension between monk and householder in Indian society. A reconciliation of both ideals in the context of theistic bhakti is acknowledgedly a historically late development in India. A strong textual, historical and cultural argument can therefore be made that the chapters with a high emphasis on Bhakti are late additions to the Gita. If so, the theophany of Krishna can be seen as an insertion into an old text that emphasized karma-yoga for the fighting Kshatriya and the courtly Brahmin, reserving jnana for those who retire to the forest. This would have been in the interests of upholding the social order. Needless to say, I don't think this argument is very sound as far as the text of the Gita is concerned. Numerous counter-arguments can be raised to it, based on the internal structure of the text itself. However, to think that the jnana-yoga and Samkhya related chapters are "dull" and are therefore late additions to the text would be equally unsound. Finally, an argument about chronological layers in the Gita needs to clearly state at what point of time the Gita came to be seen as an independent text to be studied, instead of being merely a part of the great epic. If it was surprising that nobody mentioned Lamotte in this discussion, it is even more surprising that nobody has yet mentioned van Buitenen's comments about the text and its epic context. Could not the few additional verses in the Kashmiri version be viewed as late additions to the 700-verse Gita? Yours, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 29 19:19:20 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 11:19:20 -0800 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <20010329144754.48092.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068760.23782.18076011570070303365.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Interestingly, there is no direct (or urging Arjuna > to fight) > mention of Gita in Alvars' bhakti poetry. Are there > any? I don't think so either. As far as I know, the reference to Krishna as charioteer (to Arjuna) itself is very rare in the AzvAr poetry. It occurs once in a verse by tirumGkai (periyatirumozi 2.3.1) as "pArttan tEr mun ninRAnai" etc.. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 29 19:47:37 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 11:47:37 -0800 Subject: Text layers in the Gita Message-ID: <161227068762.23782.13006283013250987744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri. LS wrote: >I don't think so either. As far as I know, the >reference to Krishna as charioteer (to Arjuna) itself >is very rare in the AzvAr poetry. It occurs once in a >verse by tirumGkai (periyatirumozi 2.3.1) as "pArttan >tEr mun ninRAnai" etc.. No old sculpture in Srivaishnava Tirupatis depicting Krushna teaching Gita to Arjuna either! Our Parthasarathy in AllikkENi looks more like the standard Hindu joint family portrait, rather than teaching Arjunan to fight wars. Tamil bhAratam knows Arjunan marrying Pandya princess (pac e_nRa tiru niRamum ... - villi), rather than being taught gita. Possibly, the Maratha period saw the production of the paintings with Krishna-Arjuna samvAdam. The nationalist usages of Gita where we can show one messiah and one book teaching us to the kitabi religionwallahs (bible, koran). Early Indologists saw their own bible in the gita and translated it 100s of times, and Indians started appreciating gita more and more (Tagore effect).Now plaster-of-paris gitopadsham artisan pieces in all Hindu homes. Quantum theory & Gita: the South Dravidians pronounce quantum as 'condom' using tamil rules of voicing T after N. See The Hindu story: Tinglish...random musings http://www.the-hindu.com/2001/03/29/stories/13290671.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Thu Mar 29 18:41:38 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 13:41:38 -0500 Subject: Rev. Pope's Tamil In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD049C57F3@smgmail.phl.smginc.com> Message-ID: <161227068758.23782.11697137025106174246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list: I wonder if the list has any opinions about the value of the Rev. Pope's (standard?) Tamil self-instruction text? It is the only text I can find here in Toronto that looks like it will be of any use to me. A friend of mine in Berkeley says he can send me the texts on modern and ancient Tamil by the Harts. I am not really very happy with the Pope book, and expect the harts' books to be better. P. Ernest From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Mar 29 22:26:25 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 17:26:25 -0500 Subject: Indian Gazeteers Search Message-ID: <161227068764.23782.2202699791865384356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dan, Enter Gazetteer (singular) AND India. I got over 500. Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> "White, Dan" 03/29 1:26 PM >>> Allen, Thanks for the information. I tried a boolean (keyword) search yesterday on Eureka and FirstSearch WorldCat and came up with only a few references: Gazeteers on Kashmir and Bihar, I think they were. What do you suggest entering to get the whole listing of gazeteers? Have a great time at the Sanskrit Congress. I thought of going, but knew that with only a month to go in the semester and the temptation to stay on for a while to do some research over in Udaipur presented too many obstacles. I am in the process of translating the Ekalingamahatmyam right now since it has never been translated from the original medieval Skt. and am finding the Sanskrit interestingly challenging and lots different from the thirty years I have spent in the more classical Puranas, Sastras, etc. My thanks again for the help and my best wishes for your trip, Dan -----Original Message----- From: Allen W Thrasher To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: 3/28/01 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Indian Gazeteers Search Dear Dan, LC has practically all of it frequently in multiple editions, and a year or so ago bought what is hopefully all of it in the IDC microform editions. Alternatively, you can look at FirstSearch limiting the search to WorldCat, which is a version of OCLC, the gigantic online union catalog which supports among other things the interlibrary loan system. I would also expect the Research Triangle universities would have most of this. Contact Avinash Maheshwary the South Asia Bibliographer at Duke . Good luck, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. >>> "J. Daniel White" 03/28 11:54 AM >>> Fellow Indologists, In trying to locate the library availability in the U.S. of the colonial Indian gazeteers, I have tried both major U.S. library search engines, First Search and Eureka, with little success. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks. Dan White ================================================================= J. Daniel White, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Studies Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Charlotte 9201 University City Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28223 USA Telephone: (704) 687-4601 Fax: (704) 687-3002 Email: jdwhite at email.uncc.edu From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Mar 29 23:30:09 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 01 18:30:09 -0500 Subject: Indian Gazeteers Search Message-ID: <161227068766.23782.10441595385338366209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.google.com/search?q=Gazetteer+India From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 30 08:52:05 2001 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 00:52:05 -0800 Subject: Luders' Varuna Message-ID: <161227068770.23782.5877698851892144100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One colleague is asking whether there is any English or French translation of Luders' work assembled as the Varuna set. Is there? Thanks. Beatrice From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Thu Mar 29 23:58:25 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 00:58:25 +0100 Subject: Story of a Ph.D. Message-ID: <161227068768.23782.12235416256382912168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a great site, http://www.goodnewsindia.com/. Visit it to cheer yourself up. A story from there, that may be of interest to Indologists, http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/transitions/pandey.html -Arun Gupta From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Fri Mar 30 10:09:23 2001 From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela Sandness) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 05:09:23 -0500 Subject: Luders' Varuna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068772.23782.14906131026721275829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Le 3/30/01 3:52 AM, ??B. Reusch?? a ?crit?: > One colleague is asking whether there is any English or French > translation of Luders' work assembled as the Varuna set. Is there? > > Thanks. > > Beatrice > I wrote to the publisher in this regard and received the response that the rights for translation had never been sold. All the better for one's German..... Best wishes, Adela Sandness From puthusserir at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 30 16:07:28 2001 From: puthusserir at YAHOO.COM (Puthusseri Ramachandran) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 08:07:28 -0800 Subject: Text layers in the Gita In-Reply-To: <20010329144754.48092.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227068774.23782.1764942723304666204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What is the first translalion of Gita in Tamil? What is the period of Pattanaar's Gita? Puthusseri Ramachandran --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > >Finally, an argument about chronological layers in > the Gita needs > >to clearly state at what point of time the Gita > came to be seen as > >an independent text to be studied, instead of being > merely a part > >of the great epic. > > Was it considered independent text first by > Sankaracharya? > What are the quotations of BhG in pre-Sankaran > Sanskrit texts? > Interestingly, there is no direct (or urging Arjuna > to fight) > mention of Gita in Alvars' bhakti poetry. Are there > any? > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Mar 30 21:00:18 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 13:00:18 -0800 Subject: Sakalya references Message-ID: <161227068777.23782.17584714195975734640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are there any useful collections & discussions of all early references to Sakalya & his tradition? Can someone point me to a recent bibliography? Thanks, S. Farmer From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 31 02:44:51 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 18:44:51 -0800 Subject: demons and possession in old sources In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010330233410.0094e890@popserv.rz.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <161227068785.23782.1590708657512898184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lukas Werth wrote: > At 22:09 30.03.01 +0100, you wrote: > >>Can anybody suggest old sources to me which deal > with demon (bhut, pret, > >>Tamil pey) possession and exorcism - preferably > from 1200 AD downwards? > >>Lukas Werth > > > >There are thousands of poems in ancient and > medieval > >Tamil describing spirit possession, 'veRi". Singing > >veRi (veRi pATutal, veRiyATTu, veRi-ayratal) was > considered demanding. > >In sangam and prabandham literature a love-sick > girl often > >feigns the frenzied possession. Parents often > >arrange exorcism by vEla_n priests, kaTTuvicci > ladies > >.... to scare the demon away, but in vain. > >Needless to say, when scholars knowing Tamil well, > >with a grounding in Sanskrit and modern advances > >in shamanism, indology devotes years into Tamil, > >new breakthroughs will be made in understanding > >ancient Indian religion that includes drumming, > blood > >sacrifice, dance, songs and possession as important > >components. > > > >Let me give a poem of about 2000 years antiquity > >describing spirit possession: > > > >----------------------------------------------------- > > > > In that confused time > > when no one realized > > that it was the broad fragrant chest > > of the chieftain in the countryside of forests > and waterfalls > > descending from high mountains where aNaGku > dwells > > which caused [my] desire and suffering, > > the women of ancient wisdom proclaimed: > > > > "She will be soothed > > by worshipping NeTuvEL > > whose strong arms are famous > > for wiping out those > > who do not bow to him." > > > > In the awe-inspiring midnight, > > to invite Muruku, > > red millet mixed with blood > > was scattered as offerings, > > to the loud singing in the shrine, > > the spear was garlanded, > > the threshing-floor polished. > > > > while [my] lover came to cure me > > of the debilitating illness of love, > > like a mighty tiger who moves fast, > > hiding in a shelter watching the elephants > as its prey, > > so that the watchmen of the large house > > in our beautiful home > > do not see him. > > > > He wears wreaths with many flowers > > buzzing with honey bees, > > which grow in plenty near the waterfalls > > on the slopes fragrant with sandal. > > > > He comes to fulfill the desire of my heart > > with his lust, > > and whenever I make love to him > > so that I swoon in the soul's ecstasy, > > > > I must laugh, really, > > when I see the waste > > spent here on the useless priest with the > spear! > > > > - akanAn2URu 22 > > > >The female author is called "The Lovely Eyed One > >who Sang About Religious Frenzy" (veRi pATiya > >kAmakkaNNiyAr). > > > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >I would translate kaLam as sacrificial altar > >here, not as threshing floor. Few more chnages > >may be needed. > > > >This quoted translation is from K. Zvelebil, > >"The nature of Sacred power", Acta Orientalia, > >40 (1980), p. 157-192. > > > >Tamil literature talks of tAkkaNaGku (afflicting > aNaGku) > >often. Probably the same as tAkurANi/TAkurANi in > North > >India. These demons/goddesses attack as well as > nourish > >(mAri/maGgalA/sItala). > > > >Considering Muruku-Skanda as a demon, Iravatham > Mahadevan > >identifies a shrivelled deity(demon) in Indus > seals: > >I. Mahadevan, 'Murukan' in the Indus script, > >p. 21-40. J. Inst. of Asian studies (Madras), > >vol. XVI, no. 2, March 1999. > > > >Prof. Peter J. Claus (email= pclaus at csuhayward.edu) > has written > >articles about bhUta worship in TuLu country. pEy > theme among > >modern Christians in Madras is analyzed in > >The Anthropology of evil (edited by David Parkin.) > >B. Blackwell, 1985. > > > >Best wishes, > >V. Iyer > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > Thank you for this interesting reply. The poem is > beautiful, was unknown to > me. I fail to recognize the comparison to spirit > possession in it, however. > > "Anthropology of Evil" is known to me, and I do have > first-hand experience > of spirit possession and exorcism in Tamil Nadu > (among Christians, too). > > Perhaps I should state the motive for my short > question: possession in > ritual, foremostly by goddesses (like those you > refer to) is an important > feature of non-brahmanical religion - linked > frequently to bloody sacrifice > - in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere in India. The people I > was with drank the > blood of buffaloes and goats they sacrificed when > the goddess was in them. > Ecstatic ritual also includes well-known practices > like piercing of tongs, > walking over hot coal - you know it. > I also believe such practices can at least be traced > into the Devi Mahatmya > (as analyzed by David Coburn): the frenzy of the > goddess killing the > buffalo demon in myth parallels possession. > Besides, you have evil spirits possessing mostly > women, which makes > exorcism necessary (like the spirits of women who > died in childbirth). At > many temples, possessed women with their relatives > who seek help are a > common sight (as in Sufi shrines). Note that this is > not necessarily the > same as in reigious ritual. Islam or Christianity do > not know possession by > god - though they do know religious ecstasy - but > possession by jins is a > prominent Islamic theme. > Now, I was wondering how long back this sort of > spirit possession in South > Asia can be traced. > > > Lukas Werth in Atharva veda shonak and pappalad versions ,there are many suktas dedicated to drive them off from the house or from the body of any one,ref>av 1.7/1-5;2/11/1-5;etc..,there are many medicines also suggested,to drive them off,also there are many mantras to protect against the black magic and kratyaa,adeadly killer one. etc.., spsharma ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Mar 30 21:09:05 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 22:09:05 +0100 Subject: demons and possession in old sources Message-ID: <161227068779.23782.16016345210526951413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anybody suggest old sources to me which deal with demon (bhut, pret, >Tamil pey) possession and exorcism - preferably from 1200 AD downwards? >Lukas Werth There are thousands of poems in ancient and medieval Tamil describing spirit possession, 'veRi". Singing veRi (veRi pATutal, veRiyATTu, veRi-ayratal) was considered demanding. In sangam and prabandham literature a love-sick girl often feigns the frenzied possession. Parents often arrange exorcism by vEla_n priests, kaTTuvicci ladies .... to scare the demon away, but in vain. Needless to say, when scholars knowing Tamil well, with a grounding in Sanskrit and modern advances in shamanism, indology devotes years into Tamil, new breakthroughs will be made in understanding ancient Indian religion that includes drumming, blood sacrifice, dance, songs and possession as important components. Let me give a poem of about 2000 years antiquity describing spirit possession: ----------------------------------------------------- In that confused time when no one realized that it was the broad fragrant chest of the chieftain in the countryside of forests and waterfalls descending from high mountains where aNaGku dwells which caused [my] desire and suffering, the women of ancient wisdom proclaimed: "She will be soothed by worshipping NeTuvEL whose strong arms are famous for wiping out those who do not bow to him." In the awe-inspiring midnight, to invite Muruku, red millet mixed with blood was scattered as offerings, to the loud singing in the shrine, the spear was garlanded, the threshing-floor polished. while [my] lover came to cure me of the debilitating illness of love, like a mighty tiger who moves fast, hiding in a shelter watching the elephants as its prey, so that the watchmen of the large house in our beautiful home do not see him. He wears wreaths with many flowers buzzing with honey bees, which grow in plenty near the waterfalls on the slopes fragrant with sandal. He comes to fulfill the desire of my heart with his lust, and whenever I make love to him so that I swoon in the soul's ecstasy, I must laugh, really, when I see the waste spent here on the useless priest with the spear! - akanAn2URu 22 The female author is called "The Lovely Eyed One who Sang About Religious Frenzy" (veRi pATiya kAmakkaNNiyAr). ---------------------------------------------------------- I would translate kaLam as sacrificial altar here, not as threshing floor. Few more chnages may be needed. This quoted translation is from K. Zvelebil, "The nature of Sacred power", Acta Orientalia, 40 (1980), p. 157-192. Tamil literature talks of tAkkaNaGku (afflicting aNaGku) often. Probably the same as tAkurANi/TAkurANi in North India. These demons/goddesses attack as well as nourish (mAri/maGgalA/sItala). Considering Muruku-Skanda as a demon, Iravatham Mahadevan identifies a shrivelled deity(demon) in Indus seals: I. Mahadevan, 'Murukan' in the Indus script, p. 21-40. J. Inst. of Asian studies (Madras), vol. XVI, no. 2, March 1999. Prof. Peter J. Claus (email= pclaus at csuhayward.edu) has written articles about bhUta worship in TuLu country. pEy theme among modern Christians in Madras is analyzed in The Anthropology of evil (edited by David Parkin.) B. Blackwell, 1985. Best wishes, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From garzilli at SHORE.NET Fri Mar 30 21:30:56 2001 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 23:30:56 +0200 Subject: IJTS vol. 5, no. 1 (March 30, 2001) Message-ID: <161227068781.23782.13154955901842810440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am glad to announce vol. 5, no. 1 of the > *International Journal of Tantric Studies*. > ISSN 1084-7553 > Copyright 1995-2001 Asiatica Association onlus. All rights reserved. http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ijts/vol5_no1/toc.asp The journal started its publication in June 1995 and is one of the oldest academic journals on the Web, the oldest in the Tantric field. I am glad to announce that Roberto Donatoni (University of Turin) has joined us in the editorial board. Other editors: Michael Witzel (Managing Editor), Ludovico Magnocavallo (Technical Editor), Minoru Hara, Karel van Kooji, David N. Lorenzen, Benjamin Preciado, Michael Rabe, Debabrata Sensharma, Enrica Garzilli (Editor-in-chief: garzilli at shore.net or garzilli at asiatica.org) TABLE OF CONTENTS - NOTE FROM THE EDITOR - PAPER: *The Realm of the Divine: Three MaNDalas from the NiSpannayogAvalI * by Terence M. Hays - NEW TITLES: Constantina R. Bailly, Douglas R. Brooks, Swami Durgananda, William H. Mahony, Paul Muller-Ortega, S. P. Sabharathnam, *Meditation Revolution: A History of Theology of the Siddha Yoga Lineage *, New York: Agama Press, 1997. (EG) Steven Sadleir, *Looking for God: A Seeker's Guide to Religious and Spiritual Groups of the World *, 1st Perigee edition, New York: Penguin Putnam Inc., 2000. (EG) S. N. Sridhar and Nirmal K. Mattoo (eds.), *Ananya: A Portrait of India*, New York: The Association of Indians in America, 1997. (EG) Mario Piantelli, *ZaGkara e il KevalAdvaitavAda*, 2nd. rev. ed., Roma: Azram VidyA, 1998. VidyAraNya, *La liberazione in vita: jIvanmuktiviveka *, transl. by Roberto Donatoni, Milano: Adelphi, 1995. (EG) (p.s. The NEW TITLES page will be open for a few days) ABSTRACT OF THE PAPER * The Realm of the Divine: Three MaNDalas from the NiSpannayogAvalI * by Terence M. Hays The NiSpannayogAvalI was written by AbhayAkaragupta, a Buddhist monk who lived in the 11th-12th century, and contains the descriptions of a number of Tantric maNDalas. The paper, after offering a brief overview of the historical setting of AbhayAkaragupta and his work, gives the translation, based on Sanskrit texts and their Tibetan Peking edition, of the depiction of three maNDalas, the "Five Guardian maNDala" the "NairAtmA maNDala", and the "Sambara maNDala". NOTE: The journal has a copyright on every single paragraph, all over the world. Infringements to the law -- as it happened to the JSAWS -- will be pursued legally. * * * * * NEW ASIATICA ADDRESS: Via Vincenzo Bellini, 4 -- 20122 Milano, Italy Tel: +39+02+76011 736. Fax: +30+02+77809364 NOTE: * We do not give guest accounts*. In order to cover our deficit and to publish the IJTS 1995-2001 book, starting from this issue members have to pay an annual fee instead of a life fee. *The fee amount will remain the same, as well as the institutional fee*. Old members will still have their life membership. Please read the Note from the Editor. http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ijts/vol5_no1/ednote.asp If you want to subscribe to the IJST mailing list (free, 2-3 msgs *per year*) mailto: ijts-subscribe at asiatica.org Happy reading! EG -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Macerata, Italy Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Tantric Studies Journ. of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org ********************************************************* From lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE Fri Mar 30 21:34:10 2001 From: lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Lukas Werth) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 01 23:34:10 +0200 Subject: demons and possession in old sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068783.23782.1661091805586313059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 22:09 30.03.01 +0100, you wrote: >>Can anybody suggest old sources to me which deal with demon (bhut, pret, >>Tamil pey) possession and exorcism - preferably from 1200 AD downwards? >>Lukas Werth > >There are thousands of poems in ancient and medieval >Tamil describing spirit possession, 'veRi". Singing >veRi (veRi pATutal, veRiyATTu, veRi-ayratal) was considered demanding. >In sangam and prabandham literature a love-sick girl often >feigns the frenzied possession. Parents often >arrange exorcism by vEla_n priests, kaTTuvicci ladies >.... to scare the demon away, but in vain. >Needless to say, when scholars knowing Tamil well, >with a grounding in Sanskrit and modern advances >in shamanism, indology devotes years into Tamil, >new breakthroughs will be made in understanding >ancient Indian religion that includes drumming, blood >sacrifice, dance, songs and possession as important >components. > >Let me give a poem of about 2000 years antiquity >describing spirit possession: > >----------------------------------------------------- > > In that confused time > when no one realized > that it was the broad fragrant chest > of the chieftain in the countryside of forests and waterfalls > descending from high mountains where aNaGku dwells > which caused [my] desire and suffering, > the women of ancient wisdom proclaimed: > > "She will be soothed > by worshipping NeTuvEL > whose strong arms are famous > for wiping out those > who do not bow to him." > > In the awe-inspiring midnight, > to invite Muruku, > red millet mixed with blood > was scattered as offerings, > to the loud singing in the shrine, > the spear was garlanded, > the threshing-floor polished. > > while [my] lover came to cure me > of the debilitating illness of love, > like a mighty tiger who moves fast, > hiding in a shelter watching the elephants as its prey, > so that the watchmen of the large house > in our beautiful home > do not see him. > > He wears wreaths with many flowers > buzzing with honey bees, > which grow in plenty near the waterfalls > on the slopes fragrant with sandal. > > He comes to fulfill the desire of my heart > with his lust, > and whenever I make love to him > so that I swoon in the soul's ecstasy, > > I must laugh, really, > when I see the waste > spent here on the useless priest with the spear! > > - akanAn2URu 22 > >The female author is called "The Lovely Eyed One >who Sang About Religious Frenzy" (veRi pATiya >kAmakkaNNiyAr). > >---------------------------------------------------------- >I would translate kaLam as sacrificial altar >here, not as threshing floor. Few more chnages >may be needed. > >This quoted translation is from K. Zvelebil, >"The nature of Sacred power", Acta Orientalia, >40 (1980), p. 157-192. > >Tamil literature talks of tAkkaNaGku (afflicting aNaGku) >often. Probably the same as tAkurANi/TAkurANi in North >India. These demons/goddesses attack as well as nourish >(mAri/maGgalA/sItala). > >Considering Muruku-Skanda as a demon, Iravatham Mahadevan >identifies a shrivelled deity(demon) in Indus seals: >I. Mahadevan, 'Murukan' in the Indus script, >p. 21-40. J. Inst. of Asian studies (Madras), >vol. XVI, no. 2, March 1999. > >Prof. Peter J. Claus (email= pclaus at csuhayward.edu) has written >articles about bhUta worship in TuLu country. pEy theme among >modern Christians in Madras is analyzed in >The Anthropology of evil (edited by David Parkin.) >B. Blackwell, 1985. > >Best wishes, >V. Iyer > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > Thank you for this interesting reply. The poem is beautiful, was unknown to me. I fail to recognize the comparison to spirit possession in it, however. "Anthropology of Evil" is known to me, and I do have first-hand experience of spirit possession and exorcism in Tamil Nadu (among Christians, too). Perhaps I should state the motive for my short question: possession in ritual, foremostly by goddesses (like those you refer to) is an important feature of non-brahmanical religion - linked frequently to bloody sacrifice - in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere in India. The people I was with drank the blood of buffaloes and goats they sacrificed when the goddess was in them. Ecstatic ritual also includes well-known practices like piercing of tongs, walking over hot coal - you know it. I also believe such practices can at least be traced into the Devi Mahatmya (as analyzed by David Coburn): the frenzy of the goddess killing the buffalo demon in myth parallels possession. Besides, you have evil spirits possessing mostly women, which makes exorcism necessary (like the spirits of women who died in childbirth). At many temples, possessed women with their relatives who seek help are a common sight (as in Sufi shrines). Note that this is not necessarily the same as in reigious ritual. Islam or Christianity do not know possession by god - though they do know religious ecstasy - but possession by jins is a prominent Islamic theme. Now, I was wondering how long back this sort of spirit possession in South Asia can be traced. Lukas Werth From puthusserir at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 31 15:47:21 2001 From: puthusserir at YAHOO.COM (Puthusseri Ramachandran) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 07:47:21 -0800 Subject: Gita translaion in world languages Message-ID: <161227068797.23782.16456443292159100252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gita has been translated into Malayalam around A. D. 1400, ie. about 600 years back by Madavapanikker of Kannassa school of Poets. It is considered as the first of its kind in any of the languages of the world. We, are planning to celebrate the 6th century of the Gita translaion in co-operation with the schoolers of Indology. We want to know whether any other arealer translation? Puthusseri Ramachandran __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Mar 31 16:15:33 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 08:15:33 -0800 Subject: India's UGC to fund jyotissastra Message-ID: <161227068799.23782.4437645763583326204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: > The initiative came in a circular from the University Grants Commission > (UGC) to India's universities: inviting them to set up departments of > Vedic Astrology leading to doctoral degrees, starting from the next > academic year. Since so-called distance learning is hot these days, maybe they'll hook up with Pandit Vamadeva Shastri (OK, David Frawley = Rajaram's coauthor) in teaching the masses Vedic Astrology correspondence courses. See http://www.vedanet.com. ;^( From torfats at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 31 08:52:17 2001 From: torfats at HOTMAIL.COM (ravindran sri) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 09:52:17 +0100 Subject: Rev. Pope's Tamil Message-ID: <161227068788.23782.6430793836328980499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> you should try the lindholm and paramasivam book. probably the best and even kerslake (published by cls). ravi >From: Phillip Ernest >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Rev. Pope's Tamil >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:41:38 -0500 > >Dear list: > >I wonder if the list has any opinions about the value of the Rev. Pope's >(standard?) Tamil self-instruction text? It is the only text I can find >here in Toronto that looks like it will be of any use to me. A friend of >mine in Berkeley says he can send me the texts on modern and ancient Tamil >by the Harts. I am not really very happy with the Pope book, and expect >the harts' books to be better. > >P. Ernest _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Mar 31 10:39:32 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 11:39:32 +0100 Subject: India's UGC to fund jyotissastra Message-ID: <161227068790.23782.17395793871511763541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "An inauspicious sign of India's new direction" by Peter Popham. The Independent, 31 March 2001. --- The initiative came in a circular from the University Grants Commission (UGC) to India's universities: inviting them to set up departments of Vedic Astrology leading to doctoral degrees, starting from the next academic year. --- Full text of article: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=63951 -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Sat Mar 31 16:42:24 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 11:42:24 -0500 Subject: Rev. Pope's Tamil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227068801.23782.10239763733399342097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List: This is to thank on-list all those who have generously written me on- and off-list about Pope's Tamil primer, and others. Please continue to write, if anyone thinks of anything new. It has all been very helpful. P. Ernest On Sat, 31 Mar 2001, ravindran sri wrote: > you should try the lindholm and paramasivam book. probably the best and even > kerslake (published by cls). > ravi > > > >From: Phillip Ernest > >Reply-To: Indology > >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Subject: Rev. Pope's Tamil > >Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:41:38 -0500 > > > >Dear list: > > > >I wonder if the list has any opinions about the value of the Rev. Pope's > >(standard?) Tamil self-instruction text? It is the only text I can find > >here in Toronto that looks like it will be of any use to me. A friend of > >mine in Berkeley says he can send me the texts on modern and ancient Tamil > >by the Harts. I am not really very happy with the Pope book, and expect > >the harts' books to be better. > > > >P. Ernest > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 31 13:28:41 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 14:28:41 +0100 Subject: demons and possession in old sources Message-ID: <161227068791.23782.9797208293526023043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Lukas Werth schrieb: >Thank you for this interesting reply. The poem is beautiful, was unknown to >me. I fail to recognize the comparison to spirit possession in it, however. The whole akanAn2URu poem 22 is about "oracle women of ancient wisdom" (mutuvAyp peNTir atuvAy kURa) diagnosing that Muruku (=Murukan/SubrahmaNya) has possessed the young girl. The vElan priest is called in and does exorcism to drive away the Muruku spirit supposedly invading the girl. Both oracle priestesses and velan shaman are utterly clueless, as to the real nature of the disease. It's worth reading K. Zvelebil's paper. He translates few more sangam poems depicting god-possession upon the priests or people. ----------- Another poem where Muruku is possessed by an ancient pulaitti priestess. Here, a jumping cow is compared to the Muruku-possessed pulaitti. ERu uTai peru nirai peyartara peyarAtu ilai putai peru kATTu talai karantu irunta val vil maRavar oTukkam kANAy cellal cellal ciRakka nin2 uLLam muruku mey paTTa pulaitti pOla tAvupu teRikkum An2 mEl puTai ilagku oL vAL pun2ai kazalOy E - puRanAn2URu 259 G. L. Hart and H. Heifetz, The four hundred songs of War and Wisdom: An anthology of poems from Classical Tamil, The PuRanAn2URu, Columbia Univeristy Press, 1999, page 157 " " Though the large herd moves on behind its leading bull, they do not. They are there, hanging back. You cannot see the warriors who hold powerful bows as they crouch in hiding within the great leaf-shrouded forest. Do not go! Do not go after the cows that leap and gambol as if they were low-caste women whose bodies has been possessed by a god, You who wear war anklets and by your side a shining sword! KOTaipATiya PerumpUtra_nAr sings .... TiNai: karantai. TuRai: cerumalaital and/or piLLaippeyarcci .... Note: line 5: "Low-caste woman" is the translation of pulaitti. People of low caste were (and are) thought to have powers over the spirit world; hence they often are mediums, prophesying while possessed. line 6: "A god" is the translation of muruku. This could also mean Murugan. " " >Now, I was wondering how long back this sort of spirit possession in South >Asia can be traced. You mention buffalo sacrifices, blood-drinking, etc., You must be familiar with: A. Hiltebeitel, "The Indus Valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through Reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of Va-hanas." Anthropos 73:5-6 (1978):767-97 (He calls the famous seal as proto-mahisha). A. Hiltebeitel, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees (SUNY 1989) Berkson, Carmel, The divine and demoniac : Mahisa's heroic struggle with Durga, OUP, 1995 Since gods like Murukan routinely descend to possess shamans of both genders in Sangam poems, and this is where it first gets recorded so eloquently when literacy comes into the South India, the spirit possession of gods must have been present few thousands of years before the beginning of our common era. BTW, what is the etymology of Sanskrit "bali"? Thanks and kind regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sat Mar 31 14:30:08 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 15:30:08 +0100 Subject: India's UGC to fund jyotissastra Message-ID: <161227068793.23782.3901492270940613168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Independent's article on Vedic astrology draws some of its language directly from : http://www.epw.org.in/35-42/comm4.htm Vedic Astrology - An Open Letter to the Chairman, UGC Other discussion in the Indian press seems to indicate that the UGC head sees a demand for traditional pandits, and wants the universities to meet that demand : http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/250700/detEXC01.htm UGC plans course on temple rituals http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20000726/ina26002.html Future is an MA in rituals & astrology -- UGC's chief Being a traditional pandit is certainly a legitimate profession, and education should be provided for, and the opportunity should be used to expose them to modern science as well. I believe that establishing such courses and education is not for a government body like the University Grants Commission; it is for institutions like the trusts that run the Hindu temples. (Of course, while autonomous, these are government appointed.) The focus on Vedic astrology is a tactic being used by opponents to run the entire idea out of town. While this is understandable, I think the focus has to be that this is not a proper government activity; Hindus should organize and fund it themselves. -Arun Gupta From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Mar 31 14:30:32 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 15:30:32 +0100 Subject: Likes and Dislikes in Science Message-ID: <161227068795.23782.14885536651190890439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A humam vocal tract can produce approximately 50 to 52 distinct sounds. These sounds are used in speech by many (if not all)languages of the world.However many languages do not have enough letters(or graphemes)to transcribe the sounds of their speech faithfully.Roman script used for many European languages is one such example. Europeans have struggled over centuries with their inadequate letters of alphabet that cannot transcribe perfectly sounds of their languages. They have to remember spellings and improvise different sounds for the same letters.The Initial Teaching Alphabet(ITA) devised by Sir James Pitman for English has 44 characters, 24 of them are old standbys, 14 of them ligatures of standard characters and 6 completely new letters. Though the alphabet is longer, it is simpler in that each character stands for a single sound and one sound only. The idea to teach children to read and write a vastly easier orthography which, once grasped, allows them to graduate to Standard English without too much of a jolt on finding the combination of four letters O-U-G-H used in words "though", "cough","through" and "thought" have different sounds. In contrast NAgarI script has properties that other scripts try to emulate.It has approximatelt 36 consonants and 16 (or 15) vowels. The same letter is pronounced in the same way in almost all the time.THere is no need to remember spellings because short and long vowels are incorporated in pronunciation. The NAgarI script has capability to transcribe all sounds of Sanskrit and other related Indian languages faithfully.In 1867 AD, Melville Bell(the father of Alexander Graham Bell, the inventor of telephone) published a book called "Visible Speech-The Science of Universal Alphabetics". His "Visible Speech" was entirely different from what we understand today as sonograph. Melville invented new symbols(or letters) to which he called "Visible Speech".This was because his new symbols specified the pronunciation of word sounds so accurately, that speech thus symbolized could be repeated by anyone else familiar with the method.Melville perhaps did not know that such system (phonetic orthographty of NAgarI script)was in use from thousands of years in India. Or he knew but wanted to promote his own originality and creativity which is good.Europeans struggling to write Sanskrit words in their books with Roman letters often take help of additional symbols(diacritical marks) but maintain their originality. On the contrary in India, English is never written by using NAgaRI script which is capable of doing that with very few diacritical marks for sounds "a" in words like "bat", "cat" and "hat" etc.Would not that be natural for Indians the way Roman script is for Europeans? Now in my opinion having many scripts in India is an asset. If south Indian languages were written with NAgarI script in addition to their own scripts (like Urdu in NAgarI script and in modified Arabic), it will open new market and other parts of India will be exposed to the pool of words from the south Indian languages. It is the choice of the people- would one like to engage the population in new creative endeavors or engage into arguments about the birth of Urdu in the camp of the Turk of Gazni? Cultures that do not like their own achievements and sacrifice originality for emulations of the other cultures will simply end up one day as a footnote in the history of the civilization of the world. Thanks. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Mar 31 21:02:15 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 01 16:02:15 -0500 Subject: Ordering texts from K.S.T.S. series Message-ID: <161227068803.23782.11634638824558331303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Could someone tell me how to order books from the Kashmir Series of Texts and Studies (K.S.T.S.). Is there a catalogue and/or list of whats still in print. Also in particular I'm looking for ziva dRSTi no. LIX in the series . Are there also other good editions of ziva dRSTi? Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com