From goelsan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 1 07:49:59 2001 From: goelsan at YAHOO.COM (Sanjay Goel) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 00 23:49:59 -0800 Subject: Data migration / microfilm (was PDF (was publication of IASS papers on CDROM)) Message-ID: <161227066203.23782.5234313270710796798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik Wish you very happy new year. Got a Wicks and wilson scanner installed in our lab. bye Sanjay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 1 03:19:07 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 03:19:07 +0000 Subject: Derivation of the word/s Kannada & Karnaataka Message-ID: <161227066201.23782.13859942393905604830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >4. [...]Fragrance is indicated by the derivation from 'kammittu' >(=fragrant) + naadu(=country) which words when compounded become >Kannaadu. >5. Kannaadu, that is Kannada thus means the language of the fragrant >country, and the epithet 'fragrant'may be considered appropriate to the >Kannada country abounding as it does in sandal [wood] forests and >lotus ponds, the later being invariably described by Kannada poets as >one of its most characteristic features." The words kannaDa/karnATaka has nothing to do etymologically with "kammittu"=(fragrant). Happy 2001, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 1 01:02:59 2001 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 06:32:59 +0530 Subject: Dravidian origins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066198.23782.12435502958824321509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:37 PM 12/30/00 -0600, you wrote: >I must remind Dr.Zydenbos, that while India remains a poor >place (because of massive orderly looting by europeans), it >remains democratic and has taken great steps in breaking bonds >that hold back dalits. Even the priesthood is not the sole >prerogative of any one group now. Is it so? Can you give me an example of just one temple in South India where this change in priesthood has occurred in the recent times? It has always been an one way traffic from non-brahminized to brahminized customs and priests. Classical example is Pazhani Muruhan temple. >In addition to the head of >state,the leader of the major ruling political party in India >is a dalit. > >No country in Europe can claim having minorities or >the underclass as heads of state or occupying positions of power. > >It must also be pointed out that Europeans >have conducted the most horrific crimes ever and eliminated >entire civilizations. No amount of loud speaking can cover it up. > >Europe still has the greatest amount of racist attacks and >killings. >Compared to that the incidents in India are much less. >Remember India has almost 2.5 to 3 times more population and >many times poorer > >While Europe may have many good admirable things. Academic >prejudice and using old ideas to reinforce euro supremacist >notions is present in Europe. Recognizing some of such weaknesses >is definitely a sign of overall academic strength. Some of our >friends on this list have not yet realized that. > >Subrahmanya Often enough, your postings are bordering politics (especially the present day one of rewritng/revisionist Hindutva politics). I can understand and appreciate an occasional one; but not so regular. I don't know what is your agenda. If we start countering your points one by one, and you reply in continuum, then we would be discussing politics and not Indology thus deviating from the guidelines followed by the founder of this list. Hence I refrain from doing that. (After all, this is 2001 beginning. Why start a polemic?) Hope you understand. The title of this thread is Dravidian Origins. With regards, RM.Krishnan >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 1 15:09:59 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 15:09:59 +0000 Subject: Mirabai, Vidyapati, ... Message-ID: <161227066207.23782.12336947160464281733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Dearest Colleagues, I am looking for the most recent translation in any Western languages (Italian, too) of the Mirabai's Padavali (with the Hindi text) and Vidyapati's Padabali (translation and original text). Can anyone help me? Many Thanks, Daniela >>> A study contextualizing the bhakti poets: Myths, saints and legends in medieval India Author: Vaudeville, Charlotte. Oxford Univ. Press, Delhi, 1996. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Jan 1 21:00:41 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 16:00:41 -0500 Subject: Article on ancient Tamil society Message-ID: <161227066209.23782.16353643285131737758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Happy new year and new millennium. On this first day of the new millennium, please take a look at the following URL for a new look at the ancient Tamil society two millennia ago. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan/bards/Bards01.htm I hope members interested in society, religion, literature, and Tamil will find it of some interest. I have to thank the University of Cologne's IITS for their Digital Tamil Literature site which is a great resource for Tamil studies. I also thank Dominik for his help in mounting the article. I look forward to your comments. Regards S. Palaniappan From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 2 00:43:27 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 16:43:27 -0800 Subject: The white yajurveda and the black yajurveda,yajnavalkya and yoga Message-ID: <161227066211.23782.3544126463104914018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> sage yagyavalkya, he was the great person who is supposed to be the auther of yaga darshan as well as the so called white yajurveda.Let us think over the difference between the white and the black yajurveda.I had gone through the shukla Y.V of yajyavalkya,kanva samhita etc,and the black y.v eg,kathak,matryani,katha,tattariya,and kapishtthal etc..,in my opinion the purest form of mantras without any mixing of brahmanik mantra are called the white y.v where as the mantras added with brahmanic words(to clarify their meanings in a better way)are called krishna y.v. As far as yoga sidhhis are concerned not only yajnyavalkya but all yogi's eg patanjali,gheranda and goraksha also described variety of sidhis.The problem is that the authers gave very brief details about these siddhis.The present teachers of yoga philosophy are unable to explain them except the mere theoritical details given by the authers.The yogis who practice yoga and having experience donot want to talk about these sidhhis. They prefer to keep their vidya or sidhhi hidden.it is believed that bringing them to light will make them the looser.It is a fact also,realised by many including me.When i was at jodhpur(rajasthan INDIA),i met a yogi who was called mouni baba(the person who donot speak) for 9 years.then he was talking very little.Once i had a chance when i and he were alno.I had some doubts about yoga siddhis,which he clarified very easily,but soon after his other disciples came,and he stopped the topic saying ,the unautharised persons are coming let us stop it here.Later i asked him to teach yoga to atleast one person,but he replied ?you bring any authorised person,i will teach him,he got many disciples having very good adminstrative and financial positions,but noone went to him,to learn yoga,every body was going to him to get his personnel problem solved and they were getting the results.Thus a yogi left the world without teaching the yoga. spsharma The so called sidhha yogis says that if the right person approaches them,they will enlighten him. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From s-lindquist at THE-FOUNDRY.NET Mon Jan 1 13:35:18 2001 From: s-lindquist at THE-FOUNDRY.NET (Steven E. Lindquist) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 19:05:18 +0530 Subject: recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka/Yajnavalkya In-Reply-To: <20001231153841.26902.qmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066205.23782.2677453465251114446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yajnavalkya is credited with composing the White Yajurveda and not the Black. BAU 6.5.3 is, I believe, the first mention of this (and also a late part of this text). The SB has Yaj. as an authority on certain ritual matters, but his role is quite limited. The puranas are the earliest detailed info. on his break from his teacher (of the Black Yajurveda, hence he couldn't have written it), his life, etc. He is also said to have composed the Yajnavalkyasmriti. Tradition views all these "Yajnavalkyas" as the same person, whereas scholars have viewed have argued for 2, 3, etc. different people/schools. See Renou's article on Yajnavalkya and also the work of Bronkhorst. s -- Steven E. Lindquist email: s-lindquist at the-foundry.net In the US: In India: Doctoral Candidate AIIS Junior Fellow/Affiliated Research Scholar Dept. of Asian Studies Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute University of TX at Austin Pune, Maharashtra -- > From: "Ven. Tantra" > Reply-To: Indology > Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 07:38:41 -0800 > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka > > Re. the Yaaj~navalkya citation from Yaaj~navalkya. Is > this the Yaaj~navalkya believed to have authored the > two Yajur Ved? collections (sa^mhitaa) ? the earlier > ?Black? Taittiriiya Sa^mhitaa and the later ?White? > Vaajasaneyii Sa^mhitaa? One wonders which it is. > > VT > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 2 03:11:37 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 01 19:11:37 -0800 Subject: Mirabai, Vidyapati, ... Message-ID: <161227066217.23782.14578823318871267172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: <<< Dearest Colleagues, I am looking for the most recent translation in any Western languages (Italian, too) of the Mirabai's Padavali (with the Hindi text) and Vidyapati's Padabali (translation and original text). Can anyone help me? Many Thanks, Daniela >>> A study contextualizing the bhakti poets: Myths, saints and legends in medieval India Author: Vaudeville, Charlotte. Oxford Univ. Press, Delhi, 1996. dear sir, you can certainly get these books with hindi translation from following address: 1>MRS M.L.B.D,DELHI-7INIDA, 2.CHOUKHAMBHA ORIENTOLIA,DELHI-7. both are well known suppliers of religious books and will supply you requested books spsharma,ridhi88 at yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 2 01:40:49 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 01:40:49 +0000 Subject: Dravidian Origins Message-ID: <161227066213.23782.8772739980827160613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan wrote: >An important factor in the advancement of this community was the >Christian missionary activity. In 1858, the demand for Shanan women >to wear a cloth covering their breasts led to riots. But for the >missionary help, the Shanan women would not have been allowed to >wear a cloth covering their breasts in Southern Travancore which was > given by Sir Charles Trevelyen, the governor of Madras in 1859. The Dravidian low caste women, especially in Kerala, not (being allowed to) wearing breast cloths is recorded in a Telugu poem: Not entirely hidden, like the enormous breasts of those Gujarati women, and not open to view, like a Tamil woman's breasts, but rather, like the supple, half-uncovered breasts of a Telugu girl, neither concealed nor exposed: that's how a poem should be composed. Anything else is a joke. Telugu original: ghanatara-ghuurjarii-kuca-yuga-kriya guu.dhamu gaaka draavi.dii- stana-gati tee.ta gaaka aracaa.t' agu aandhra-vadhuu.ti cokkapun canu-gava-liila guu.dhatayu caa.tutanambunu leekay u.n.da cep- pinan adipo kavitvam' anipi~ncu nagi~nc' a.tugaakay u.n.dinan (From a poem at the right moment; VNRao, DShulman). Happy 2001, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 2 02:38:53 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 02:38:53 +0000 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066215.23782.8000567020670285011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Few years ago, Prof. Peter J. Claus, an anthropologist from California asked me how to explain the name of the herding caste name, "Golla". Gollas are found in all Indian region including the Deccan, Bihar, ... That time I did not have an answer to the Tulu expert, P. J. Claus who has written fieldwork regarding the yAdhavization phenomenon happening among various Golla tribes/castes. Online Tamil lexicon entry: *kOvalar* = 1) men of the sylvan tract, 2) herdsmen There are 100s of references for "kOvalar" as herdsmen in Sangam poetry and Alvar/NAyanmAr bhakti corpus. An example: kuRuntokai - "pal An2 kOvalar" tEvAram - "kollaivAyk kuruntu ocittuk kuzalum Utum kOvalan2um" (Krishna is the cowherd called Kovalan here.) In old times, Gollas were called "Govalas", usually rendered in English as Goalas. An example: Sir. Herbert Hope Risley, The People of India, 1908, Calcutta, p. 28: "In Bihar or the United Provinces the casteless tribes, Kols, Korwas, Mundas, and the like, who have not yet entered the Brahminical system, occupy the lowest place ... Then come the vermin-eating Musahars and the leather-dressing Chamars. This fisher castes, Bauri, Bind and Kewat, are a trifle higher in the scale; the pastoral *Goala*, the cultivating Kurmi, and the group of cognate castes from whose hands a Brahmin may take water follow in due order, and from them we pass to the trading Khatris, the landholding Babhans, and the upper crust of Hindu society." Obviously, tamil "kOvalar" > Govala (=Goala) > Golla. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 2 12:36:07 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 04:36:07 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066221.23782.1347010882089082793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A yogini in Rome writes: > In Ramayana, we find Queen Kausalya, mother of Rama, > practicing pranyama and introducing certain vedic > texts into the breathing. In order to do this, she > would have to practice a certain rhythm. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jan 2 03:05:04 2001 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (shrikant bahulkar) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 08:35:04 +0530 Subject: Dravidian Origins Message-ID: <161227066219.23782.5174667846377114118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Already there exists a Sanskrit verse similar to the Telagu one : no gurjariistana ivaatitaraa.m niguu.dho naandhriipayodhara ivaatitaraa.m prakaa'sa.h / artho giraa.m apihita.h pihita's ca ka'scit saubhaagyam eti maraha.t.tavadhuukucaabha.h // I do not remember the source of this verse at this moment. Shrikant Bahulkar Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > S. Palaniappan wrote: > >An important factor in the advancement of this community was the > >Christian missionary activity. In 1858, the demand for Shanan women > >to wear a cloth covering their breasts led to riots. But for the > >missionary help, the Shanan women would not have been allowed to > >wear a cloth covering their breasts in Southern Travancore which was > > given by Sir Charles Trevelyen, the governor of Madras in 1859. > > The Dravidian low caste women, especially in Kerala, not > (being allowed to) wearing breast cloths is recorded in a > Telugu poem: > > Not entirely hidden, > like the enormous breasts of those Gujarati women, > and not open to view, > like a Tamil woman's breasts, > but rather, > like the supple, half-uncovered breasts > of a Telugu girl, > neither concealed nor exposed: > > that's how a poem should be composed. > Anything else > is a joke. > > Telugu original: > > ghanatara-ghuurjarii-kuca-yuga-kriya guu.dhamu gaaka draavi.dii- > stana-gati tee.ta gaaka aracaa.t' agu aandhra-vadhuu.ti cokkapun > canu-gava-liila guu.dhatayu caa.tutanambunu leekay u.n.da cep- > pinan adipo kavitvam' anipi~ncu nagi~nc' a.tugaakay u.n.dinan > > (From a poem at the right moment; VNRao, DShulman). > > Happy 2001, > V. Iyer > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 2 19:43:32 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 11:43:32 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066225.23782.8869931924545844324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Important to know that a cognate of tamil kOvalar is found in North India with the name, Govala/Goala. kOval is an ancient town with major temples to both Vishnu and Shiva. C. P. Brown in his Telugu-English dictionary derives Golla from Gorre 'a kind of sheep'. Compare with the Tamil cognates from OTL: koRi 02 1. sheep; 2. aries, a constellation of the zodiac koRi-ttal 01 1. to nip off the husks of grains; to nibble grain; 2. to graze; to pick up food here and there, as cattle; to eat scantily; koRRi 1. young calf; 2. cow with a young calf. --- "Dr. N. Ganesan" wrote: > Few years ago, Prof. Peter J. Claus, an anthropologist from > California asked me how to explain the name of the > herding caste name, "Golla". Gollas are found in all Indian > region including the Deccan, Bihar, ... That time I did not > have an answer to the Tulu expert, P. J. Claus who has > written fieldwork regarding the yAdhavization phenomenon > happening among various Golla tribes/castes. > > Online Tamil lexicon entry: > *kOvalar* = 1) men of the sylvan tract, 2) herdsmen > > There are 100s of references for "kOvalar" as > herdsmen in Sangam poetry and Alvar/NAyanmAr bhakti corpus. > An example: > kuRuntokai - "pal An2 kOvalar" > tEvAram - "kollaivAyk kuruntu ocittuk kuzalum Utum kOvalan2um" > (Krishna is the cowherd called Kovalan here.) > > In old times, Gollas were called "Govalas", usually > rendered in English as Goalas. An example: > Sir. Herbert Hope Risley, The People of India, 1908, Calcutta, > p. 28: > "In Bihar or the United Provinces the casteless tribes, > Kols, Korwas, Mundas, and the like, who have not yet entered > the Brahminical system, occupy the lowest place ... Then > come the vermin-eating Musahars and the leather-dressing > Chamars. This fisher castes, Bauri, Bind and Kewat, are > a trifle higher in the scale; the pastoral *Goala*, the > cultivating Kurmi, and the group of cognate castes from > whose hands a Brahmin may take water follow in due order, > and from them we pass to the trading Khatris, the > landholding Babhans, and the upper crust of Hindu society." > > Obviously, tamil "kOvalar" > Govala (=Goala) > Golla. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 2 21:32:28 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 13:32:28 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066234.23782.10103175222155762359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > > Online Tamil lexicon entry: > *kOvalar* = 1) men of the sylvan tract, 2) herdsmen > > There are 100s of references for "kOvalar" as > herdsmen in Sangam poetry and Alvar/NAyanmAr bhakti > corpus. > An example: > kuRuntokai - "pal An2 kOvalar" > tEvAram - "kollaivAyk kuruntu ocittuk kuzalum Utum > kOvalan2um" > (Krishna is the cowherd called Kovalan here.) kOvalan < gopAla? > > In old times, Gollas were called "Govalas", usually > rendered in English as Goalas. An example: > Sir. Herbert Hope Risley, The People of India, 1908, > Calcutta, > p. 28: > "In Bihar or the United Provinces the casteless > tribes, > Kols, Korwas, Mundas, and the like, who have not yet > entered > the Brahminical system, occupy the lowest place ... > Then > come the vermin-eating Musahars and the > leather-dressing > Chamars. This fisher castes, Bauri, Bind and Kewat, > are > a trifle higher in the scale; the pastoral *Goala*, > the > cultivating Kurmi, and the group of cognate castes > from > whose hands a Brahmin may take water follow in due > order, > and from them we pass to the trading Khatris, the > landholding Babhans, and the upper crust of Hindu > society." > > Obviously, tamil "kOvalar" > Govala (=Goala) > > Golla. The common Hindi word for cowherd is "gvaala". Would it perhaps be less strained to derive it from Skt. gopaala? Another point for your consideration. The ancient Tamil name for the town of kOval (tirukkOvalUr) is iTaikazi. kOval could actually be a rendering of iTaikazi, influenced perhaps by the first part of the more obscure iTaikazi. (The name iTaikazi for the town seems to have been inadequately appreciated :-) and in time seems to have been totally superseded by kOval. The word iTaikazi itself seems to have reduced in meaning from town to temple to a passage in the temple. This progressive reduction in meaning is evident as we proceed from AzvAr hymns to commentaries on the hymns to hagiographies.) Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 2 18:42:27 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 13:42:27 -0500 Subject: Double truth etc Message-ID: <161227066223.23782.16459358057375642897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Sundaresan, I wrote.. >indra or viSNu may derive independently from Existence... but still >from >the highest stand point they are mere symbols. One correction please: Talking "Java": As indra, viSNu and others work with each other in the yajna while they run on different "threads", each of these interfaces do have "methods" unique to them; e.g., viSNu's famous three strides, his being the door guardian of gods (viSNu is the first perception of the Unknown); and indra's methods to kill vRtra; rudrA's ownership over what remains at the place of worship (Ai.Br or K.Br) (because the last perception of the Known is rudra, similar to Java's garbage collection algorithm which claims all unused memory to make it more efficient) and so on. The background object (brahman) has neither data nor methods. I guess in future we will have classes defined for all systems of philosophy. Till then I promise, no more Java on this list. About samAna being at navel: "(The priest) brahmaNacchAnsin is in here at the middle navel suture.." (kausItaki.Br pp 518 M.B.das). The embryo gets used to thinking of the navel as the source of nourishment for the first 9-10 months in the most formative stage of its nervous system, its neurology is designed to think that way, but this 'childhood experience' will continue to drive it even after the navel has been stitched up. I think we are just scratching the subject. More at VedicRitual egroup later. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mbauri at HOME.COM Wed Jan 3 00:02:18 2001 From: mbauri at HOME.COM (mbauri) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 16:02:18 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066231.23782.14674906806401349241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This fisher castes, Bauri, Bind and Kewat, are > a trifle higher in the scale; the pastoral *Goala..... Could anyone give some more information on the 'Bauri' caste ? Incidentally, there is also a last name 'Bauri' of Swiss or German origin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swaminathan Madhuresan" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: Re: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes > Important to know that a cognate of tamil kOvalar is found > in North India with the name, Govala/Goala. kOval is an > ancient town with major temples to both Vishnu and Shiva. > > C. P. Brown in his Telugu-English dictionary derives > Golla from Gorre 'a kind of sheep'. Compare with the > Tamil cognates from OTL: > > koRi 02 1. sheep; 2. aries, a constellation of the zodiac > > koRi-ttal 01 1. to nip off the husks of grains; to nibble grain; 2. to graze; > to pick up food here and there, as cattle; to eat scantily; > > koRRi 1. young calf; 2. cow with a young calf. > > --- "Dr. N. Ganesan" wrote: > > Few years ago, Prof. Peter J. Claus, an anthropologist from > > California asked me how to explain the name of the > > herding caste name, "Golla". Gollas are found in all Indian > > region including the Deccan, Bihar, ... That time I did not > > have an answer to the Tulu expert, P. J. Claus who has > > written fieldwork regarding the yAdhavization phenomenon > > happening among various Golla tribes/castes. > > > > Online Tamil lexicon entry: > > *kOvalar* = 1) men of the sylvan tract, 2) herdsmen > > > > There are 100s of references for "kOvalar" as > > herdsmen in Sangam poetry and Alvar/NAyanmAr bhakti corpus. > > An example: > > kuRuntokai - "pal An2 kOvalar" > > tEvAram - "kollaivAyk kuruntu ocittuk kuzalum Utum kOvalan2um" > > (Krishna is the cowherd called Kovalan here.) > > > > In old times, Gollas were called "Govalas", usually > > rendered in English as Goalas. An example: > > Sir. Herbert Hope Risley, The People of India, 1908, Calcutta, > > p. 28: > > "In Bihar or the United Provinces the casteless tribes, > > Kols, Korwas, Mundas, and the like, who have not yet entered > > the Brahminical system, occupy the lowest place ... Then > > come the vermin-eating Musahars and the leather-dressing > > Chamars. This fisher castes, Bauri, Bind and Kewat, are > > a trifle higher in the scale; the pastoral *Goala*, the > > cultivating Kurmi, and the group of cognate castes from > > whose hands a Brahmin may take water follow in due order, > > and from them we pass to the trading Khatris, the > > landholding Babhans, and the upper crust of Hindu society." > > > > Obviously, tamil "kOvalar" > Govala (=Goala) > Golla. > > > > Regards, > > N. Ganesan > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 3 01:28:54 2001 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 17:28:54 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066240.23782.16081985241016130688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > > > > Online Tamil lexicon entry: > > *kOvalar* = 1) men of the sylvan tract, 2) herdsmen > > > > There are 100s of references for "kOvalar" as > > herdsmen in Sangam poetry and Alvar/NAyanmAr bhakti > > corpus. > > An example: > > kuRuntokai - "pal An2 kOvalar" > > tEvAram - "kollaivAyk kuruntu ocittuk kuzalum Utum > > kOvalan2um" > > (Krishna is the cowherd called Kovalan here.) > > kOvalan < gopAla? > > > > In old times, Gollas were called "Govalas", usually > > rendered in English as Goalas. An example: ... There is a very interesting and directly related DEDR entry: DEDR #2218: Te. kOvuramu ambush, lying in ambush Pa. kOp- (kOt-) = to tend (cattle) Ga. kOp- (kOt-) id. Go. kOpal, kopAl = cowherd; kOpAl = term of abuse applied to Gaiki graziers; kOpe = cowherdess koh- to tend cattle; kohval cowherd Kui. kOpa = to tend, herd (cattle, sheep); n. tending, herding ?Cf. 1416 Ta. kA. DED(S) 1838 where DEDR #1416 is: Ta. kA = to preserve, shelter, watch, guard...etc. That the aforementioned entry #2218 is not at all annotated with any relationship to Skt. gOpAla is puzzling. This then provides a basis for reasoning that Ta. kOvalan2 is indeed Dravidian nothing to do with Skt. gOpAla, which raises the question of why did Burrows and Emeneau not include Ta. kOvalan2 = cowherd in this entry? What gives? Regards, P. Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Jan 3 00:32:35 2001 From: jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (James Nye) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 18:32:35 -0600 Subject: Hobson-Jobson dictionary on the Web Message-ID: <161227066236.23782.13628103870346513698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ganesan, A detailed list of dictionaries under consideration in the Digital Dictionaries of South Asia project is available at . Final decisions on the precise dictionaries to be converted will be made this month by the project's advisory board after they have reviewed comments submitted last year by language teachers and linguists. At the end of the project, two years from now, there will be at least one language-to-English dictionary available for each of the South Asian languages listed on the second URL you cited. Additionally there will be a Web version of at least one monolingual dictionary for each of the modern languages taught most frequently in the U.S. Jim >Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:28:42 +0000 >From: "N. Ganesan" >Subject: Hobson-Jobson dictionary on the Web > >I found a nice link to the famous Hobson-Jobson dictionary. >Helpful for searching the Indian roots of certain english words. >http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hobsonjobson/index.html > >It looks dictionaries of more Indian languages will be available >from the same site in the future. >http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/dictionaries.html > >I know Sanskrit and Tamil dictionaries from the Cologne website, >are there any other web Indian language (to English) dictionaries >out there? > >Regards, >N. Ganesan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 2 20:28:42 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 01 20:28:42 +0000 Subject: Hobson-Jobson dictionary on the Web Message-ID: <161227066228.23782.1760841984554883072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found a nice link to the famous Hobson-Jobson dictionary. Helpful for searching the Indian roots of certain english words. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hobsonjobson/index.html It looks dictionaries of more Indian languages will be available from the same site in the future. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/dictionaries.html I know Sanskrit and Tamil dictionaries from the Cologne website, are there any other web Indian language (to English) dictionaries out there? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 3 00:33:16 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 00:33:16 +0000 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066238.23782.7613242380682197958.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >kOvalan < gopAla? The sangam tamil term for herdsmen, kOvalar is not likely shown to be from Skt. gopAla. Tamil "kOvalar" means people of the raised country - mullai and kuRiJci landscapes, and they are not from the 'marutam' riverine delta lands where farmers belong. Compare the parallels and synonyms for herdsmen: Tamil kuRumpar (=Ka. kurubaru), kOn2Ar, etc. have to do with hillocks, raised country, and kOvalar is related with kOn2Ar, kuRumpar - meaning hill-folk. MalaipaTukaTaam tells the kOvalar, kuRavar connection explicitly: "kOvalar kuRavaroTu oruGku iyaintu Arppa". VaLLi, Muruhan's love is a kuRatti, the daughter of the hill country in mythology. The Kongu country, full of hills and Western ghats, has a subdivision, kuRumpar country. "koGkil kuRumpil kurakkut taLiyAy" (Cuntarar Tevaram). kuRumpar, kuRavar, kOn2Ar, kOvalar: all have semantics to do with "hills". >The common Hindi word for cowherd is "gvaala". Would >it perhaps be less strained to derive it from Skt. >gopaala? In Tamil, cOttikam < skt. svastika; tam. cOti < skt. svAti. Parallel: gvaala < goala (Risley, 1908) < tam. kOvala, can we call it a back-formation? >Another point for your consideration. The ancient >Tamil name for the town of kOval (tirukkOvalUr) is >iTaikazi. kOval could actually be a rendering of >iTaikazi, influenced perhaps by the first part of the >more obscure iTaikazi. >(The name iTaikazi for the town seems to have been >inadequately appreciated :-) and in time seems to have >been totally superseded by kOval. The word iTaikazi >itself seems to have reduced in meaning from town to >temple to a passage in the temple. This progressive >reduction in meaning is evident as we proceed from >AzvAr hymns to commentaries on the hymns to >hagiographies.) I know "iTaikazi" as a passage in homes, temples and as well as in Sangam poetry. PaTTin2appAlai: " kuRu toTai neTu paTikkAl koTu tiNNai pal takaippin2 puzai vAyil pOku iTaikazi mazai tOyum uyar mATattu " Here obviously "iTaikazi" is the passage just as in our AzvAr legends. I don't know where iTaikazi is attested as the *earlier* name of "kOval"/"kOvalUr"?. Do you know any instance? Definitely it's not in sangam poetry. kOval attestation examples: a) tuJcA muzavin2 kOval kOmAn2 (akam) b) muraN miku kOvalUr nURi nin2 (puRam) This well attested town name kOval from sangam times cannot be from skt. gopAla for sure. Compare kOval with other village names: cikkal, cuziyal, cEynjal, nAval, marukal, mAkaRal, paRiyal, jnAzal, ... LS wrote once: >iTaiyar can perhaps be thought of as a hypercorrect >form of eTaiyar where eTai comes from the word for >goat (DED 4229 Ta. yATu, Te EDe). Ta. yATu could >however may underlie Skt. yAdava (Southworth). Like Tamil iTaiyar, Gollas of the Deccan and further North are related to Telugu gorre 'sheep' and tamil koRi, koRRi (sheep, cow). I believe neither the tamil town name "kOval" nor the herdspeople, 'kOvalar' come from skt. gopAla. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 3 14:53:08 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 06:53:08 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066250.23782.4537325234873708880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > This well attested town name kOval from sangam times > cannot be from skt. gopAla for sure. > Compare kOval with other village names: > cikkal, cuziyal, cEynjal, nAval, marukal, mAkaRal, paRiyal, jnAzal, ... The tamil words, kOval and kOvalar are independent of skt. gopAla. Like kOvalar, there are words in tamil: Evalar, kAvalar, pAvalar, nAvalar, mEvalar, and so on. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Wed Jan 3 14:30:24 2001 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 08:30:24 -0600 Subject: EJVS 6-2 Message-ID: <161227066248.23782.10407826487038454519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear interested readers of EJVS: The editors of EJVS have just announced the release of the latest issue of EJVS which contains two of my papers. Unfortunately, the second paper on nakSatras in Rgveda has some tables which are not convenient to read because of some formatting problems. I have reproduced below the tables after deleting all spaces between entries hoping to make the tables more readable. I have requested the editors to issue a correction for the same tables. Thanks for your patience. With best wishes for the new, millenium, year,....Narahari Achar (P. S . I am temporarily off the mailing from the list and my e-mail. I will be back on by the end of the month.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tables For the nakSatras in Rgveda paper Table 2. Variant names of nakSatras in samhita texts nakSatra no., TS, MS, KS, AV, deity 3, mRgazIrSa, invagA, invakA, mRgazIrSa, soma 4, ArdrA, bAhu, bAhu, ArdrA, rudra 6, tiSya, tiSya, tiSya, puSya, bRhaspati 13, svAtI, niStya, niStya, svAtI, vAyu 16, rohiNI, jyeSThA, jyeSThA, jyeSThA, indra 17, vicRtau, mUla, mUla, mUla, pitR 21, zroNA, zroNA, azvattha, zravaNa, viSNu 28, apabharaNi, bharaNi, apabharaNi, bharaNyaH, yama Table 3a. Variant deities of citrA and zatabhiSaj nakSatra . List, TS(IV. 4. 10), TB(1.5.1), TB(3.1.1), TB(3.1.4) 12,.citrA, indra, indra, tvaSTA, tvaSTA 22,.zatabhiSaj, indra, indra, varuNa,varuNa Table 3b. Names and deities of nakSatra #17 in different lists List, TS(IV. 4. 10), TB(1.5.1), TB(3.1.1), TB(3.1.4) Name, vicRtau, mUlavarhani, mUla, mUla Deity, pitR, nirRti, nirRti,prajApati ------------------------------------------------------------------------. Makoto FUSHIMI wrote: > We are pleased to announce that ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES, > vol. 6, issue 2 (Dec. 2000) has just been released. > > It contains following papers: > > 1. Kim Plofker > > How to interpret astronomical references in Vedic texts? > > 2. B. N. Narahari Achar > > Comments on "The Pleiades and the Bears viewed from inside the Vedic texts" > > 3.B. N. Narahari Achar > > Searching for nakSatras in the Rgveda > > This issue is now available on the EJVS web site. > > Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > > Makoto Fushimi > -- > FUSHIMI, Makoto From WIKNER at NAC.AC.ZA Wed Jan 3 06:51:50 2001 From: WIKNER at NAC.AC.ZA (Charles Wikner) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 08:51:50 +0200 Subject: Hobson-Jobson dictionary on the Web Message-ID: <161227066243.23782.2360224428036138603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 02 Jan 2001, N. Ganesan wrote: > I know Sanskrit and Tamil dictionaries from the Cologne website, > are there any other web Indian language (to English) dictionaries > out there? _The Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary_ of V S Apte at: http://www3.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~tjun/sktdic/index.html Regards, Charles. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Jan 3 09:46:41 2001 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 10:46:41 +0100 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth In-Reply-To: <8c.8b1487.2780d2db@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227066245.23782.15747941932859108368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > >.................................................... I was looking for >something >similar to the following. > >"In this world around which the moon god revolves demonstrating to even >ignorant ones so that they learn that there is decrease (like waning) and >there is increase (like waxing) ; there is dying (like setting) and there is >being born (like rising)...". Thanks in advance. > The moon was indeed considered as an example of death and rebirth. One of the classical Vedic riddles (brahmodya) was the question: "Who is born again", to which the correct answer was: "the moon", see George Thompson in JAOS 117 (1997): 14. (See also the Yaksha's questions to be answered by Yudhishthira, Mahabharata 3.297.47). Thus, the moon could be used to illustrate the endless cycle of death and rebirth, e.g. in a passage of the Shantiparvan of the Mbh. (in a context of epic Samkhya philosophy), Mbh. (Crit. Ed.)12. 293, in Ganguli's translation 12.305, where it is said that in consequence of ignorance, jIva, like Candramas (the moon), has to wax and wane thousands and thousands of times. ... Candramas has in reality full 16 portions. Only 15 of these are subject to increase and decrease. The sixteenth (i.e. that portion which remains invisible and which appears on the night of the New-moon) remains constant. This 16th part is then compared with the 16th part of jIva which is cit in its purity. As you see, death and rebirth is here not compared with the setting and rising of the moon, but with its waning and waxing. I would be very much interested in getting more anwers to Palaniappan's question! Best regards, Georg v. Simson From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 3 18:56:49 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 10:56:49 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066255.23782.5215017245561727556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cf. Sanskrit gOpa, gOpA/gOpI. --- Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > There is a very interesting and directly related DEDR entry: > DEDR #2218: > > Te. kOvuramu ambush, lying in ambush > Pa. kOp- (kOt-) = to tend (cattle) > Ga. kOp- (kOt-) id. > Go. kOpal, kopAl = cowherd; > kOpAl = term of abuse applied to Gaiki graziers; > kOpe = cowherdess > koh- to tend cattle; > kohval cowherd > Kui. kOpa = to tend, herd (cattle, sheep); n. tending, herding > ?Cf. 1416 Ta. kA. DED(S) 1838 > > where DEDR #1416 is: > Ta. kA = to preserve, shelter, watch, guard...etc. > > That the aforementioned entry #2218 is not at all annotated > with any relationship to Skt. gOpAla is puzzling. > This then provides a basis for reasoning that Ta. kOvalan2 > is indeed Dravidian nothing to do with Skt. gOpAla, which > raises the question of why did Burrows and Emeneau not > include Ta. kOvalan2 = cowherd in this entry? > What gives? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Wed Jan 3 19:04:31 2001 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 11:04:31 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Integrity of academia Message-ID: <161227066258.23782.9717562730101385593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta wrote: > The first law of Indology : just as rivers and streams find their way into > the sea, so any discussion will find its way to Tamil etymology, After all, what does etymologizing take ? Just a few arrows this way and that way. The paucity of accredited Dravidian experts on this list leads to a lot of speculation and irrational exuberance... just enjaay it while it lasts... it is your indelible fate. -Srini. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 3 17:02:08 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 17:02:08 +0000 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066253.23782.10013828676356885979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thiru. Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >The common Hindi word for cowherd is "gvaala". Would >it perhaps be less strained to derive it from Skt. >gopaala? Though popularly the herdsmen caste name "gvAla" in the North India is derived from Skt. gopAla (for eg. R. S. McGregor, Hindi-English dictionary, OUP), gopAla > gvAla is a long stretch of imagination. It is far easier and straight-forward to get gvAla from Dravidian. Like gvAla, jvAla(A), jvAr millet, dhvani - all will plausibly have Dravidian roots. jvAr (=skt. yavanAla) < jOLa, jonnelu, cOLa and similarly yamuna < tamil to_lunai, pl. see http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0010&L=indology&P=R3311 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0010&L=indology&P=R4481 With kind regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Jan 4 07:22:46 2001 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 01 23:22:46 -0800 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth In-Reply-To: <6a.9fa5326.277f6402@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227066262.23782.4573566007197711537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:14 AM 12/30/2000 -0500, S. Palaniappan wrote: > >I would appreciate if anybody could tell me if in any of the ancient north >Indian traditions, the moon is described as exemplifying the nature of life >as consisting of waxing and waning, dying and being born again. Thanks in >advance. G. von Simson already gave some useful references. The Rg Veda says that the Moon becomes new again and again as it is born: navo navo bhavati jAyamAnaH, 10.85.19 (repeated in TaittirIya SaMhitA 2.4.14). See the previous verse (RV 10.85.18) for a comparison with the Sun's movement. See also: VAjasaneya SaMhitA 23.45-46, and Zatapatha BrAhmaNa 13.2.6.10-11. I dealt in some detail with the ascending-descending nature of Vedic astronomical cycles and their relation to later ideas of rebirth in: Gonzalez-Reimann, Luis. 1988. Tiempo ciclico y eras del mundo en la India (Cyclical Time and World Ages in India). Mexico City: El Colegio de Mexico. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 11:21:01 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 03:21:01 -0800 Subject: Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066264.23782.8425455806111831733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members: I connection to a preface to my ?rendering? of the _Diamond Cutter Sutra_, might anyone have any interesting data on the life of Kumarajiva? ?i.e., beyond what I have compiled below. Is it the name alone that makes me think he was ?Indian?? Much obliged, Ven. Tantra *Kumarajiva* (CE 344?413). Great Indian (?) Buddhist scholar and missionary born in Kucha, present day Xinjiang, China. When his mother, a Kuchean princess, became a nun, he followed her into monastic life at the age of seven. He grew up in Buddhist centers. In 383, Chinese forces seized Kucha and took Kumarajiva to China. From 401 he was at the Ch?in court in the capital Chang?an (modern Xi?an). He taught and translated Buddhist scriptures into Chinese. With 500 scholar monks assisting him, he is said to have translated more than 100 Buddhist works. Twenty-four are authenticated. These include some of the most important titles in the Chinese Buddhist canon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 4 03:21:50 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 03:21:50 +0000 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066260.23782.5667192054074663371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Excerpts of an Expert's letter. Nice to know that etymologies of Golla from nonsanskrit sources kindle interest among academics. [Personal details withdrawn.] Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------- [...] I can't add knowledgeably to this long-awaited set of derivations. My instinct is that the kO- is from a Dravidian root having to do with mountain/forested uplands inhabited by people not a part of settled agricultural society. I would guess it is a term which refers both (but indirectly) to the physical environment as well as a social assessment category (i.e. a peripheral people with whom the society of "name-givers" (i.e. somebody called them kOvalar) had social/political/economic/etc. relationships. And, of course, not just ONE group, and not just in ONE location, at ONE time, but repeatedly, over centuries, to a variety of emerging social groups all around the Deccan from about the Vindhyas south to TN. Gonds, Kovi, Gollas etc. could have all been labeled similarly by local dominant groups at different times in history. While it was true that they most likely all raised some animals (sheep, goats, cattle, in mixed proportions to varying degrees and with varying reliance) it is not the animals to which the kO- refers. Virtually all peoples of the Deccan raised animals, and, at least as regards household ownership of animals, none more so than the wealthiest landowners. Regarding potential reference to animals, it is most likely that those kO-peoples, lacking lowland, multicrop land ownership were in a position to aggregate individual herds (their own and others) to take them to dry season pastures (in the uplands nearer to where they resided). In that sense kO- could have been associated with 'protection' and 'herding' and 'grazing' as well as 'upland' and 'forest'. In any case, I thoroughly agree it is not only difficult to derive Golla from Gopala, it is unnecessary. From a social or economic or political/ideological basis it is unlikely as well: there is not a lot of evidence for strictly cattle herders amongst any of the kO-people, at least not enough to label them 'cattle herders'. At best, they could perhaps have been a relatively unemployed miscellaneous "group" (occupationally, but not socially) who took the cattle of settled others to the hills and upland valleys in times of grass shortage or military unrest. This is a social/occupational phenomenon well-attested all over the Deccan in historic times. [...] _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 13:09:28 2001 From: girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM (Girish Bhaskaruni) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 05:09:28 -0800 Subject: Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066269.23782.11938027505994115842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hello V.T, i remember to have read about Kumarjiva long back in a book on Chinese Buddhism in thew University Library of Osmania University, Andhrapradesh, India. aumarajiva was a Indian Buddhist who migratedto China in 6 th century AD along with Dharmaraksha another Buddhist monk. I also remember that the photo of monastary where the Stupa of Kumarajiva was there in China was also given there. this is for your information with regards G.B --- "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > Dear List members: > > I connection to a preface to my ?rendering? of the > _Diamond Cutter Sutra_, might anyone have any > interesting data on the life of Kumarajiva? ?i.e., > beyond what I have compiled below. Is it the name > alone that makes me think he was ?Indian?? > > Much obliged, > > Ven. Tantra > > *Kumarajiva* (CE 344?413). Great Indian (?) Buddhist > scholar and missionary born in Kucha, present day > Xinjiang, China. When his mother, a Kuchean > princess, > became a nun, he followed her into monastic life at > the age of seven. He grew up in Buddhist centers. In > 383, Chinese forces seized Kucha and took Kumarajiva > to China. From 401 he was at the Ch?in court in the > capital Chang?an (modern Xi?an). He taught and > translated Buddhist scriptures into Chinese. With > 500 > scholar monks assisting him, he is said to have > translated more than 100 Buddhist works. Twenty-four > are authenticated. These include some of the most > important titles in the Chinese Buddhist canon. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 14:00:04 2001 From: girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM (Girish Bhaskaruni) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 06:00:04 -0800 Subject: 'Panis' - The Indus People Message-ID: <161227066272.23782.12351868061519122552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hello friends, You might have heard about the Rg Vedic tribe "Panis"- With whom the Divine Dog "Sarama" had a discussion. the discussion is in Rgveda it self. My question is "can the PANIS be identified with the people of Harappan civilisation???" Panis were discribed as trading people in Rgveda. they were also described as wealthy people.they were also regarded as Dasas. The above description suits the harappan people. The word for trade in sanskrit- 'VaaniJya' is derived from the root 'Pan' Now, in dravidian languages also the root 'Pan' is there. it means 'work' in dravidian languages. i feel it meant 'trade' in ancient times and it took a wider meaning in later times. The name for trading community in western india- 'Baniyas' is also derived from the same root. Now it is interesting to note that Gujarathis are included in 'Pancha Dravidas' >?From all the above, the PANIS of Rgveda may be the Harappan people.it gives the suggestion that some harappan people were there when Aryans migrated into India, they termed them as Panis based on their profession (trade was the main profession of harappan people).It is logical to think so. Regarding the Oral Tradition in ancient India i have an observation to make. as i said earlier the Rgvedic people might have been in contact with harappan people, thats why they developed the oral tradition in contrast to their enemies who had a developed writing system. though many scholars tried to derive that the Rgvedic people know writing from vague references, it remains a fact that vedic people were not well versed with writing. they might have tried to hide their texts, beliefs etc., from their enemies (probably harappan people)by maintaining oral tradition. i invite your opinion on this with regards G.B --- Kengo Harimoto wrote: > Hello List, > > There are two published texts on yoga ascribed to > Yaaj~navalkya: > > - The Yogayaaj~navalkya (published as TSS 134) > > - The B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti (ed. by Swami > Kuvalayananda and > Pandit Raghunathashastri Kokaje, published by The > Kaivalyadharma > S. M. Y. M. Samiti, Poona 1976) > > Despite similar titles, (note the difference between > yoga- and yogi-) > these two texts do not seem to be related to each > other. That is, the > B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti is not an expanded > version of the > Yogayaaj~navalkya. > > Vaacaspati quotes a verse from a text called the > Yogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti in his commentary on > Yogasuutra 1.1. This > verse exists in the B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti, > not in the > Yogayaaj~navalkya. > > Unfortunately, currently I do not have access to > these texts. So, I > cannot check if they use the term puuraka, recaka, > and kumbhaka. > > BTW, the commentary (vivara.na) on the Yogabhaa.sya > ascribed to > 'Sa"nkara mentions puuraka and recaka as the terms > used by others, > i.e., not in the Paata~njalayoga"saastra. > > Hauer thought the technique later known as puuraka, > recaka, kumbhaka > dates all the way back to the Atharvaveda. (Die > Anfaenge der > Yogapraxis im alten Indien, pp. 11-3) > > -- > kengo __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 14:04:16 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 06:04:16 -0800 Subject: re. Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066274.23782.3025845297120452277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks Girish and those off-list. See improvements, below. More please - more. VT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kumarajiva* (CE 344?413). Great Central Asian-Indian Buddhist scholar and missionary born in the Central Asian kingdom of Kucha, present day Xinjiang, China. His father was Kumarayana, the son of a former minister of an Indian kingdom who had renounced the right to his father?s position in order to become a monk. His mother was Jivaka, a Kuchean princess. When Kumarajiva was seven, his mother renounced the world. He followed her into the monastic life and they traveled throughout India and several other countries studying and living in Buddhist centers. Kumarajiva mastered several foreign languages and returned home to propagate Mahayana Buddhism. His fame spread far along the Silk Road to China. Keen to acquire such a brilliant talent, in 383 the ruler of the Former Ch?in dynasty ordered his army to invade Kucha and bring Kumarajiva to China. On the way back to China with the human treasure, the general learned that the dynasty had fallen. He thus he made Liang-chou a seat of independent rule and for eighteen years Kumarajiva was held as a captive scholar. In 401, Kumarajiva finally arrive at the Chinese capital of Ch?ang-an (modern Xi?an), at the invitation the ruler. He was given the position of Teacher of the Nation and immersed himself in teaching and translating Buddhist scriptures into Chinese. With 500 scholar monks assisting him, he is said to have translated more than 100 Buddhist works. Twenty-four are authenticated. These include some of the most important titles in the Chinese Buddhist canon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 17:37:51 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 09:37:51 -0800 Subject: Dravidian origins Message-ID: <161227066280.23782.16401511600305551927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:37 PM 12/30/00 -0600, Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: >>I must remind Dr.Zydenbos, that while India remains a poor >>place (because of massive orderly looting by europeans), it >>remains democratic and has taken great steps in breaking bonds >>that hold back dalits. Even the priesthood is not the sole >>prerogative of any one group now. Rm. Krishnan responded: >Is it so? Can you give me an example of just one temple in South India >where this change in priesthood has occurred in the recent times? It has >always been an one way traffic from non-brahminized to brahminized customs >and priests. Classical example is Pazhani Muruhan temple. prof. Dr. Subrahmanya's statement is a surprise! In the modern secularizing world, Hindu priesthood, and Head seats of Mutts including Saiva Siddhanta Adheenams, Srivaishnava Jeeyar TirumaTams, Veerasaiva Mutts and even the ancient Kanchi Mutt can be made available to serve by qualified Indians with training in agamas, pUjA, philosophy, Sanskrit, the local state language ..., irrespective of caste. Glad to note that indeed this thinking is happening in among Indian elites and those with power. That will definitely be a step forward in the first century of the third millennium. Dalitas got entry permit into the temples in the last century. When can they become priests? My best, SM Sn. Subrahmanya wrote: >In addition to the head of >state,the leader of the major ruling political party in India >is a dalit. > >No country in Europe can claim having minorities or >the underclass as heads of state or occupying positions of power. > >It must also be pointed out that Europeans >have conducted the most horrific crimes ever and eliminated >entire civilizations. No amount of loud speaking can cover it up. > >Europe still has the greatest amount of racist attacks and >killings. >Compared to that the incidents in India are much less. >Remember India has almost 2.5 to 3 times more population and >many times poorer > >While Europe may have many good admirable things. Academic >prejudice and using old ideas to reinforce euro supremacist >notions is present in Europe. Recognizing some of such weaknesses >is definitely a sign of overall academic strength. Some of our >friends on this list have not yet realized that. > >Subrahmanya Rm. Krishnan responded: <<< Often enough, your postings are bordering politics (especially the present day one of rewritng/revisionist Hindutva politics). I can understand and appreciate an occasional one; but not so regular. I don't know what is your agenda. If we start countering your points one by one, and you reply in continuum, then we would be discussing politics and not Indology thus deviating from the guidelines followed by the founder of this list. Hence I refrain from doing that. (After all, this is 2001 beginning. Why start a polemic?) Hope you understand. The title of this thread is Dravidian Origins. With regards, RM.Krishnan >>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 18:51:18 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 10:51:18 -0800 Subject: Vyaasa's three-fold typology of historians Message-ID: <161227066283.23782.1181725444152179340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Eric Wolf, Europe and the people without history: Were there actually three types of "historians" in India? Was there a deliberate design not to develop/evolve historical writing in India because a major language shift to IA was takingplace. Efforts went more into mythmaking rather than history, is it not? --- Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > S.D.Kulkarni, in his The Puraanas: The Encyclopaedia of Indian History > and Culture (vol II 1993: 47-48) argues that kings in ancient India > maintained three types of recorders: (1) the Suta narrated the exploits of > the kings of the past; (2) the Maagadha recorded prominent events in the > lives of those kings who have departed in the recent past; and (3) the > Bandin described the wars and other exploits of the ruling monarchs. > In support Kulkarni quotes the Mahaabhaarata (Aadi parvan, part 1: > 240-241). A quick check, however, could not trace this reference in the > critical edition. Does it come from another version? Has any list member > worked on this or related issue? > S.Tilak __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Jan 4 11:41:57 2001 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 12:41:57 +0100 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka In-Reply-To: <200101022359.f02NxLM26617@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227066267.23782.11737405052191062273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello List, There are two published texts on yoga ascribed to Yaaj~navalkya: - The Yogayaaj~navalkya (published as TSS 134) - The B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti (ed. by Swami Kuvalayananda and Pandit Raghunathashastri Kokaje, published by The Kaivalyadharma S. M. Y. M. Samiti, Poona 1976) Despite similar titles, (note the difference between yoga- and yogi-) these two texts do not seem to be related to each other. That is, the B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti is not an expanded version of the Yogayaaj~navalkya. Vaacaspati quotes a verse from a text called the Yogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti in his commentary on Yogasuutra 1.1. This verse exists in the B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti, not in the Yogayaaj~navalkya. Unfortunately, currently I do not have access to these texts. So, I cannot check if they use the term puuraka, recaka, and kumbhaka. BTW, the commentary (vivara.na) on the Yogabhaa.sya ascribed to 'Sa"nkara mentions puuraka and recaka as the terms used by others, i.e., not in the Paata~njalayoga"saastra. Hauer thought the technique later known as puuraka, recaka, kumbhaka dates all the way back to the Atharvaveda. (Die Anfaenge der Yogapraxis im alten Indien, pp. 11-3) -- kengo From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 20:43:32 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 12:43:32 -0800 Subject: Riddles (prahElikaah) in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227066284.23782.9285633144625603003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SuryaPrakash Sharma wrote: Dmitri. > dear friend, the riddle asked may be having one of the folloing meaning:- it actually reveals the humem life,saying that the morning when the men is child,he walks on four legs ie two each hands,and two legs.During afternoon when,he is a young men he walks on two legs,in evening that is , when he becomes an aged person he walks on three legs that is two his own legs and one stick.to support him while walking.I cannot give any reference because i am here at US far away from my home in "india" where all the reference documents , mostly on vedas,yoga,and other philosophical subjects are left, > ------------------------------ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 4 21:03:09 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 13:03:09 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066286.23782.5060297786021117626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ven. Tantra" wrote: A yogini in Rome writes: > In Ramayana, we find Queen Kausalya, mother of Rama, > practicing pranyama and introducing certain vedic > texts into the breathing. In order to do this, she > would have to practice a certain rhythm. VT It is a well known fact that in ancient times,the men and women both were daily practising the ritualistic fire at their houses to clean the atmosphere,simultaneously they were practicing yoga regularly without fail,to keep their inner self clean and pure.Rama himself was a great yogi,having a perfect yoginy"seeta" his wife.The mantra,koushlya was chanting may be true,but it is very difficult to say exactly which mantra she used to chant.there are many rituals.and hymes each one having its own rythm,which are to be chanted mentally only while breathing in and out. spsharma __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 4 14:40:53 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 14:40:53 +0000 Subject: Chariot wheels Message-ID: <161227066276.23782.11881536583598908050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I add as well a new link mentioned briefly by M. Witzel on one aspect >of this kind of mythologizing -- involving K. N. Sethna's widely repeated >claims that chariots are supposedly depicted on Harappan inscriptions ("Is >Sethna's Chariot Pulled by Rajaram's Horse?"). There is obvious a partly >humourous intent to the webpage, which was >composed to counter S. Kalyanaraman's defense of "Rajaram Horse II," >but it introduces new evidence as well. >See: >Steve Farmer. This is the earliest reference I could find hypothesising about "chariot" wheels in IVC seals. This was given few years ago, in this list. K. D. Sethna, The Aryans, the domesticated horse and the spoked chariot-wheel, JAS Bombay ns 38, 1963, p. 44-68. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 4 15:19:52 2001 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 15:19:52 +0000 Subject: Vyaasa's three-fold typology of historians Message-ID: <161227066278.23782.15293093913038493946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S.D.Kulkarni, in his The Puraanas: The Encyclopaedia of Indian History and Culture (vol II 1993: 47-48) argues that kings in ancient India maintained three types of recorders: (1) the Suta narrated the exploits of the kings of the past; (2) the Maagadha recorded prominent events in the lives of those kings who have departed in the recent past; and (3) the Bandin described the wars and other exploits of the ruling monarchs. In support Kulkarni quotes the Mahaabhaarata (Aadi parvan, part 1: 240-241). A quick check, however, could not trace this reference in the critical edition. Does it come from another version? Has any list member worked on this or related issue? S.Tilak _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 00:59:43 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 01 16:59:43 -0800 Subject: PROBLEM OF WORD PANIS Message-ID: <161227066297.23782.1702130757277131277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear Mr girish, I read your article about panis,i appriciate the labour you done,to enlighten us,but still i suggest you the following facts:- 1>the people of harappa (and mohanjodaro)were also aryans.Refer the research submitted by Dr fatahsingh"Ex directer of rajasthan puratatwa vibhaga. 2>the panis were persons who worships coin"in place of GOD".even today there are persons belonging to this community,they are so called baniyas.As you said the "WORD" banian and PANI are derived from the same root. 3>The story of panis and indra is not a history but a riddle to explain some natural secrets.I advise you to refer the translation of vedas by Swamy dayananda saraswati,or Acharya vaidhyaNatha shashtri the later one's translation is in english available. 4>As the majority of hindu religous people beleaves veda as devine and not history,I suggest you to look at their original translations to define the riddles of natural secrets etc.., 5>the fire ituals also impliments the hymes for various purposes.these purposes clarifies the relation between the ritual,material used,and the purpose to be served.the ritualist pandits either ignorent about it or donot want to tell others?so you have to get it some how. 6>since last 25 years i am constantly in touch with vedas and fire rituals,.I am basically an aeronautical engineer,but convinced that the fire is the root cause of modern science,The word "indra" many times used for the"sun" etc..,One of the dictionary ment to solve the riddles and secrets of veda is "NIGHANTU and NIRUKTA" of yask.WHITH NUMBER OF EXAMPLES HE HAD SOLVED THE MYSTERY OF VEDIC MANTRAS. spsharma --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri Jan 5 00:31:50 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 00:31:50 +0000 Subject: re. Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066288.23782.15772251007593910817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think Kumarajiva was never in India. Many translators from Sanskrit in China were Kuchean, Khotanese, Parthian, Sogdian or Yueh-chih, but Kumarajiva is best known. Note that the language of Kucha was Indo-European, even though the region is in China. Buddhism survived in the region perhaps until 15th cent. I'n not sure if the people there were related to the "Caucasian" mummies found there. Yashwant PS: Sanskrit is still taught in China. From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri Jan 5 00:42:41 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 00:42:41 +0000 Subject: re. Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066290.23782.11137287740463153577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm sorry, I was mistaken. Kumarajiva had probably visited India for a few years as a boy. Yashwant From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 00:50:09 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 00:50:09 +0000 Subject: re. Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066293.23782.18347398247483530642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:31:50 +0000, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: [...] > >Note that the language of Kucha was Indo-European, even though >the region is in China. Buddhism survived in the region perhaps >until 15th cent. > >I'n not sure if the people there were related to the >"Caucasian" mummies found there. > >Yashwant Tocharian is an extinct branch of IE which was used in Xinjiang before being replaced by Turkish languages. Raveen From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 5 00:59:11 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 00:59:11 +0000 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066295.23782.13680318510670401773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to those who have given me valuable references on this question, both on the list and off it. >Despite similar titles, (note the difference between yoga- and yogi-) >these two texts do not seem to be related to each other. That is, the >B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti is not an expanded version of the >Yogayaaj~navalkya. Yaajnavalkyasm.rti is a more generic Dharmazaastra text, while my impression of the other text is that it is more focussed on Yoga. The Sm.rti has a commentary called Baalakrii.daa, by Vizvaruupa, traditionally equated with Surezvara, disciple of Zankara, and the more widely known Mitaak.sara commentary by Vijnaanezvara. Interestingly, verse 3. 110 in the Sm.rti must be a reference to the other Yoga text - yogazaastram ca mat-prokta.m jneya.m yogam abhiipsataa. The Yaajnavalkyasm.rti is available online from the Indology site, as prepared by Prof. Ikari's team from Kyoto, following the Nirnayasagar edition (1949). >Unfortunately, currently I do not have access to these texts. So, I >cannot check if they use the term puuraka, recaka, and kumbhaka. The Yaajnavalkyasm.rti does not. I don't have Yogayaajnavalkya with me, so any help would be greatly appreciated. By the way, one cannot find all three terms directly in the Ramayana or the Mahabharata also. General references to praa.naayaama are there in both epics. >BTW, the commentary (vivara.na) on the Yogabhaa.sya ascribed to >'Sa"nkara mentions puuraka and recaka as the terms used by others, >i.e., not in the Paata~njalayoga"saastra. This was what prompted my original request for references. In a 1998 paper in JIP, T. S. Rukmani interprets this "anye" (others) as a reference to Vaacaspati Mizra, and argues that the vivara.na is therefore a later text. I doubt whether the vivara.na on the Yogasuutrabhaa.sya is by the author of the Brahmasuutrabhaa.sya, but I nevertheless question the assertion that the reference in the vivara.na is a straightforward one to Vaacaspati Mizra. In the bhagavadgiitaabhaa.sya (4. 29), the terms puuraka, recaka and kumbhaka are used as a matter of course, in order to explain the sacrifice of praa.na in apaana and vice versa, controlling the movement of both. There is also a full description of baahya and aabhyantara v.rttis in this connection. Here, "apare" (others) comes from the Giitaa verse itself, but the Bhaas.ya clearly shows that Zankara himself was quite aware of all these details. Swami Tyagananda pointed to the Zvetaazvatarabhaa.sya reference, but the attribution of this commentary to Zankara is doubted. On the other hand, after the work of Raghavan, Ingalls and Mayeda, there is now no doubt whatsoever about the Giitaabaa.sya. >Hauer thought the technique later known as puuraka, recaka, kumbhaka >dates all the way back to the Atharvaveda. (Die Anfaenge der >Yogapraxis im alten Indien, pp. 11-3) That is a v. interesting piece of information. Any Atharvavedic references available? Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 11:23:50 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 03:23:50 -0800 Subject: re. Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066299.23782.41305715235176523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanking Messrs. Yashwant and Raveen for their splendid daubs of color. Re. <> Clarification: Are we saying that IE Tocharian was the ?dominant? language of Kucha at the time of Kumarajiva? When was it replaced by Turkish languages? VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 5 16:32:09 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 08:32:09 -0800 Subject: Kumarajiva Message-ID: <161227066308.23782.12445501431169003122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re. < Subject: Re: Kumarajiva>> Sir, your blood pressure? VT Jasmine Cave Hermitage __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Fri Jan 5 15:55:41 2001 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 10:55:41 -0500 Subject: Kumarajiva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066306.23782.10640544784186948861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm terribly sorry to be a critic, and I hope I can avoid the lable of one who uses this list for intemperate personal comments, but: For heaven's sake, doesn't anybody take the trouble to use reference books and do any research anymore before crying to the list for BASIC information?! There is really quite alot reliably known about Kumarajiva, easily accessible to anyone who should qualify as a member of this list, that is, bona fida scholars. Let's avoid this list being a replacement for Introduction to Asian Cultures 101, please. Much has been published even long ago by Johannes Noble, Zenryu Tsukamoto and many others, not to mention works in Japanese...not to mention that one can learn alot about Tocharian from any encylopedia, for instance! good gracious, what a way to start a new year :-( Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Fri Jan 5 12:16:57 2001 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 12:16:57 +0000 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066302.23782.11390692955198931483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The Yaajnavalkyasm.rti does not. I don't have Yogayaajnavalkya > with me, so any help would be greatly appreciated. There is a controversy regarding the date and authorship of these two texts: 1) Yogayajnavalya[samhita] 2) Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmrti /BYS/ For the discussion on this problem see these articles: P. C. Divanji, Brhad Yogi Yajnavalkya-Smrti and Yoga Yajnavalkya, ABORI 34 (1953): 1-29 S. Kuvalayananda and R. Kokaje, A Reply to Sri P. C. Divanji's Comments on Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmrti, ABORI 37 (1956): 279-289 C. T. Kenghe, Some Further Observations on the Problem of the Original Yogayajnavalkya. ABORI 52 (1971): 49-65 M. L. Gharote and V. B. Bedekar, The Real One, in Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmrti, Engl. transl., Lonavla: S.M.Y.M. Samiti, 1982, pp. 134-167 Good summary of this discussion has Kane, History of Dharmasastra, vol.1, pt. 1, 2nd ed., pp. 449-459, and vol. 5, pt. 2, 2nd ed., pp. 1403-1408. BYS has the terms recaka-puraka-kumbhaka (in 8th chapter on pranayama), but be aware that this text is quite late (cca 7-10th c.). -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 5 12:43:38 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 12:43:38 +0000 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066304.23782.3331662405865901707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >BYS has the terms recaka-puraka-kumbhaka (in 8th chapter on pranayama), but >be aware that this text is quite late (cca 7-10th c.). Tirumantiram 568 from 6-7th century. ERutal pUrakam Ir eTTu vAmattAl ARutal kumpam aRupattu nAlu atil URutal muppattu iraNTu ati rEcakam mARutal on2Rin2 kaN vajncakam AmE. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 6 00:58:14 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 16:58:14 -0800 Subject: Kali's Child and controversy Message-ID: <161227066314.23782.11470243222572465068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra wrote: Friends, I happened meet Swami Tyagananda here in Boston today and he was kind enough to give me a copy of his rebuttal to "Kali's Child" of Jeffrey Kripal. I spent this afternoon going through Swami's notes and the paper he presented at AAR. I have not read "Kali's child". What appears to me it's a product of ignorance and immature knowledge in Sanskrit and Bengali. It's not clear if the book is written with a bias or ran out of hand. Have people read this book? Do you have an opinion? Is it an example of Rajaram on the other side? The greater scare is how many such books are in the making with cursory knowledge and borrowed translations? Let 2000 end with these thoughts and let's aim for cultural research without bias in the coming century! I will like to hear if anyone has read the book and has an opinion. Best regards, Bijoy Misra i have gone through the letter of shree bmishra, Although i have not gone through the books refered by him,but in india there are many people,who beleive that the eight bhairavas[or 64 bhairavasas believed] are the sons of godess durga or kali.As all the shakti's are the appearence of parvati the wife of lord shiva,and the 10 mahavidhyas among which godess kali is the first and kamala is the last one,also are nothing but the various appearences of godess parvati,the bhairavas are supposed to be the son,s of lord shiva,so they are automatically are the sons of kali or durga or parvati. There are many books each one defines the bhairava in a different way,some worships bhairava calling hime as the form of lord shiva,others call them the sons of shakti etc.., It is all upto a person how he realises,the god. spsharma --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 6 01:13:17 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 17:13:17 -0800 Subject: Finding books Message-ID: <161227066316.23782.4114592348406747231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Daniela Rossella wrote: Dearest Colleagues, I am eagerly looking for a lot of Sanskrit texts (with or without a translation in a Western language) and, as usual, I have sent my order to a number of Indian bookshops. On 13th December "Motilal Banarsidass" and "Books & Periodical Agency" have written to me "ok", but, afterwards, unfortunately, I don't have received no more any news. The "Indian Books Centre" has not these texts; and "Biblia Impex" did not answer a word. So, can someone give to me an advice? Many thanks in advance and sorry for this annoyance. Yours, Daniela Rossella ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 6 01:16:35 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 17:16:35 -0800 Subject: Finding books Message-ID: <161227066318.23782.4198018927430025352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Daniela Rossella wrote: Dearest Colleagues, I am eagerly looking for a lot of Sanskrit texts (with or without a translation in a Western language) and, as usual, I have sent my order to a number of Indian bookshops. On 13th December "Motilal Banarsidass" and "Books & Periodical Agency" have written to me "ok", but, afterwards, unfortunately, I don't have received no more any news. The "Indian Books Centre" has not these texts; and "Biblia Impex" did not answer a word. So, can someone give to me an advice? Many thanks in advance and sorry for this annoyance. Yours, Daniela Rossella ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** dear friend in jan fsecond week i am going india,ther if possible i wll try to help you.you can send your required list at my email address given below:- i will forword your requirement to indian suppliers and try to get you your requirements; spsharma, --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 5 20:06:26 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 20:06:26 +0000 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066310.23782.18039221910319203725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lubomir Ondracka wrote: >There is a controversy regarding the date and authorship of these two >texts: >1) Yogayajnavalya[samhita] >2) Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmrti /BYS/ Great, I'll check the references you've cited. I suppose I really have to go back to the invaluable Kane. Meanwhile, just to satisfy my curiosity quickly - is there evidence to differentiate between a Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmrti text and a plain Yajnavalkyasmrti? The 1949 Nirnayasagar edition available online just has the latter title, and seems to be a much smaller text, with only three adhyAyas. See ftp://ftp.ucl.ac.uk/pub/users/ucgadkw/indology/texts/ Best regards, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 5 22:01:36 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 01 22:01:36 +0000 Subject: Catechu Message-ID: <161227066312.23782.16578327146975771878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists, E.B. Cowell, The Sarva-Dar"sana-Sa.mgraha, MLBD, 1996, gives in Ch. I The Chaarvaaka System. "In this school the four elements, earth & c., are the original principles; from these alone, when transformed into the body, intelligence is produced, just as the inebriating power is developed from the mixing of certain ingredients; (1) and when these are destroyed, intelligence at once perishes also. " (1) KiNwa is explained as "drug or seed used to produce fermentation in the manufacture of spirits from sugar, bassia &c." Colebroke quotes from "SaGkara: "The faculty of thought results from a modification of the aggregate elements in like manner as sugar with a ferement and other ingredients becomes an inebrieating liquor; and as betel, areca, lime and extract of catechu chewed together have an exhilarating property not found in those substances severally." " Even though Cowell does not specify the book/article by H. T. Colebrooke, he refers to Colebrooke's Essays at a different place in the SDS. In A. C. Burnell's vaMza brAhmaNa also, Colebrooke's Essays is cited. It looks Colebrooke's Essays was popular in the late 19th century and, this is where possibly the "SaGkaran remark on Lokayatas be located? Can an Indologist give the "SaGkara quotation that Colebrooke cites, please? a) Miscellaneous essays, by H. T. Colebrooke, London, Tr?bner & Co., 1873. 3 v. front. b) Essays on the religion and philosophy of the Hindus, Colebrooke, H. T. (Henry Thomas), 1765-1837. London and Edinburgh, Williams and Norgate; [etc., etc.] 1858. Many thanks, N. Ganesan Note: Maadhava AchArya, SDS, Ch. I, p. 10, "Thus it has been said- The fire is hot, the water cold, refreshing cool the breeze of morn; By whom came this variety? from their own nature it was born." What is the original shlokam translated here? Let me cite the corresponding lines from JayamkoNTAr's kArANai vizupparaiyan2 maTal: "kAtaR kalavik kan2iyiruppak kAykavarntu cEtap paTumcitaTTut tiNNarkAL! mun2n2Irkku nAtamum, nANmalarkku nARRamum, veNmatikkuc cItamum uNTAkac ceytArAr? ..." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 6 02:26:04 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 02:26:04 +0000 Subject: Dravidian golla and Hindi gvAla Message-ID: <161227066326.23782.5181537538018366649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Telugu, golla = a herdsman, a shepherd, ... (C. P. Brown, Telugu-English dictionary, p. 389 ) Further, Brown records that "golla" is derived from "gorri" = A sheep. DED 1799 Ta. koRi sheep ... Te. goRe, goRRe sheep .... For the Telugu word "goRe", compare the Tamil cognates: a)koRi 02 1. sheep; 2. aries, a constellation of the zodiac b)koRi-ttal 01 1. to nip off the husks of grains; to nibble grain; 2. to graze; to pick up food here and there, as cattle; to eat scantily; c)koRRi 1. young calf; 2. cow with a young calf. gvaala in Hindi meaning herdsmen does not seem to be transmuted from Skt. gopAla, even though this is popularly attested in modern dictionaries. Consider Hindi jvAr < ka. jOLa, ta. cOLam, co_n_nal, tel. jonna. (Though Mayrhofer 1953 EWA derives yananala from yavana - Greek, Ionian etc.!) Just as hindi jvAr (= millet ...) < drav. jOLa, the Hindi word gvAla ultimately has roots in drav. golla, and not Skt. gopAla. Regards, N. Ganesan a) Like jvAr < drav. jOLa, and gvAla < drav. golla, Hindi kvAn/kuA_n 'well" seem to be related with DED 1518 Ta. tank, reservoir, lake, Ka. koLa, koNa. .... It appears hindi kvAn < drav. koNa b) This process seems to be working in Skt. jvAla, dhvani. Are jvAla and dhvani IE? and are they attested in old Persian? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Sat Jan 6 01:42:10 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 02:42:10 +0100 Subject: Airyanam Vaejah near Kazakhstan? Message-ID: <161227066321.23782.18443206734716848145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Manfred Hutter discusses the plausible geographical origin and date of Zarathustra and the Gathas in RELIGIONEN IN DER UMWELT DES ALTEN TESTAMENTS, vol. I, Kohlhammer, Stuttgart/Berlin/Koeln, 1996. A few of his conclusions might be interesting. 1. Airyanam Vaejah is to be localized north of Khwarezm, it could have extended as far as Kazakhstan (p. 195). 2. He bases his dating on linguistic, "avestisch-textinterner", and archaeological evidence, and concludes (p. 197): "Fasst man linguistische, textinterne und archaeologische Indizien zusammen, so hat folgender Zeitansatz die groesste Wahrscheinlichkeit: Als maximale Obergrenze fuer das Auftreten Zarathustras ist die Mitte des 2. Jts. v. Chr. anzusetzen, eine Untergrenze ist um das Jahr 1100 zu ziehen, wobei eine Datierung ins 12. Jh. am guenstigsten sein duerfte." So, Hutter dates Zarathustra to the twelfth century BC, while the EB, 15th edition (s.v. Zoroaster) still has "born c. 628 BC, probably Rhages (Rayy), Iran - d. c. 551, site unknown" (Micropaedia, vol. 12, p. 934). This article in EB appears to have no references to literature later than 1970, and may have been written about thirty years ago (by F.K., = the Most Rev. Franz Cardinal Koenig, Archbishop of Vienna 1956-85). On the other hand, the Macropaedia article (s.v. Zoroastrianism and Parsiism) by J. Duchesne-Guillemin, obviously written somewhat later, does not attempt to date Zarathustra at all: "All that may safely be said is that Zoroaster lived somewhere in eastern Iran, far from the civilized world of western Asia, before Iran became unified under Cyrus II the Great." Should I now regard Hutter's dating as more reliable than Koenig's? What is the general opinion among modern Iranologists? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sat Jan 6 02:17:18 2001 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 03:17:18 +0100 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka In-Reply-To: <200101052359.f05NxTd06400@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227066323.23782.14816565433821449864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Vidyasankar Sundaresan and the list members, [Since I am receiving Indology in digest, I am going to comment on multiple messages.] > Meanwhile, just to satisfy my curiosity quickly - is there evidence > to differentiate between a Brhadyogiyajnavalkyasmrti text and a > plain Yajnavalkyasmrti? Oh, they are totally different. Or maybe a few shared verses? Kane and other references given by Ondracka, et al, should answer the question regarding between the two, I think. Or, if at all possible, just a look at the two makes it clear that they are different :-) But the Trivandrum Sanskrit Series is hard to come by. The plain Yaaj~navalkyasm.rti is a dharma"saastra and the B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti is a yoga"saastra. Shingen Takagi also wrote a couple of articles on the B.rhadyogiyaaj~navalkyasm.rti and the Yogayaaj~navalkyasm.rti. (Sorry I do not have the reference at the moment. But they are in Japanese anyway.) > This was what prompted my original request for references. In a 1998 > paper in JIP, T. S. Rukmani interprets this "anye" (others) as a > reference to Vaacaspati Mizra, and argues that the vivara.na is > therefore a later text. I doubt whether the vivara.na on the > Yogasuutrabhaa.sya is by the author of the Brahmasuutrabhaa.sya, but > I nevertheless question the assertion that the reference in the > vivara.na is a straightforward one to Vaacaspati Mizra. Rukmani's articles are not very much reliable (to say the least). Since it happens that the Vivara.na on the Yogabhaa.sya is what I dealt with in my dissertation, I am a bit familiar with the issue :-) > In the bhagavadgiitaabhaa.sya (4. 29), the terms puuraka, recaka and > kumbhaka are used as a matter of course, in order to explain the > sacrifice of praa.na in apaana and vice versa, controlling the > movement of both. There is also a full description of baahya and > aabhyantara v.rttis in this connection. Here, "apare" (others) comes > from the Giitaa verse itself, but the Bhaas.ya clearly shows that > Zankara himself was quite aware of all these details. Swami > Tyagananda pointed to the Zvetaazvatarabhaa.sya reference, but the > attribution of this commentary to Zankara is doubted. On the other > hand, after the work of Raghavan, Ingalls and Mayeda, there is now > no doubt whatsoever about the Giitaabaa.sya. If you read the Vivara.na on YS 2.28--55, there are rather frequent reference to others/aacaaryas/yoga"saastraantara. The impression I got from examining them is that the author was quite familiar with a yoga"saastra that teaches 6-a"nga yoga. The a"ngas lack yama and niyama of 8-a"nga of the Paata~njalayoga"saastra, but at least aasanas and praa.naayaama were among them. There are further interesting observations possible. I once wrote a short article in Japanese on the issue, but that was rather like suutras (due to space limitation) and not quite intelligible even from my own perspective. (Again, since it is in Japanese, I do not want to ask anyone to bother.) I have been trying to rewrite the whole thing in English, but haven't finished editing and yet to submit to any journal. Some of the highlights from my observations would be: 1) that I thought the yoga"saastra could have been ascribed to Hira.nyagarbha (see the Vivara.na on YS 3.39), the legendary original teacher of yoga. 2) and that the yoga"saastra appears to be quite similar (if not the same) yoga"saastra "Sa"nkara knew. As you are aware, "Sa"nkara was familiar with more than one yoga"saastras, including the Paata~njalayoga"saastra. Compare the BSBh 2.1.3: yoga"saastre .api ``atha tattvadar"sanopaayo yoga.h'' iti samyagdar"sanaabhyupaayatvenaiva yogo.a"ngiikriyate| (BSBh NSP ed. p. 438, ll. 8--9) Vivara.na 2.28: tathaa caacaaryair uktam, ``yogas tattvaj~naanaartha.h'' i iti|| (Vivara.na, p. 208, ll. 9--13) BSBh 4.2.10: ata eva padmakaadiinaam aasanavi"se.saa.naam upade"so yoga"saastre (BSBh NSP ed. p. 949, l. 15) Vivara.na 2.46: "saastraantaraprasiddhaani naamaani padmaasanaadiini pradar"syante|| (p. 225, l. 18) etc. Interestingly, Jacobi somehow thought that the reference in the BSBh 2.1.3 was to Hira.nyagarbha's yoga"saastra. (See his ``Ueber das urspruengliche Yogasystem,'' in Kleine Schiriften, p. 701, n. 2.) > Any Atharvavedic references available? AV 15.15--7 was what Hauer dealt with. But Eliade did not think the excercise in the AV was already praa.naayaama (Yoga, p. 104). -- kengo From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 6 06:07:04 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 06:07:04 +0000 Subject: Ajatasatru in Upanisads Message-ID: <161227066329.23782.13955700551178463369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ajatasatru, King of Magadha, is recognised to have been a contempory of the Budha. Now, we also have an Ajatasatru in the Upanisads. Could someone tell me whether these two Ajatasatru's are one and the same? Thanking you, Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 6 07:25:32 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 07:25:32 +0000 Subject: Yogacara idealism Message-ID: <161227066332.23782.13729473099156910008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:45:17 -0500, Birgit Kellner wrote > >You have not read carefully enough what I wrote. I pointed out that >two of the instances you cite in support of the thesis >"only ideas are real" are ill-chosen, because the statements they make >are *compatible* with the assumption that external objects exist and >are real. These instances were DignAga's AlambanaparIkSA and >DharmakIrti's sahopalambhaniyama-inference. I have *not* stated that >YogAcAra does not deny external reality; on this issue (and on Dan >Lusthaus' ideas) I have no firm opinion as yet, and I actually doubt >that it is useful to discuss such a general and vaguely formulated >thesis with respect to a school of thought as diverse as YogAcAra. At >any rate, it is important to >be careful in choosing one's textual support for statements made about >Indian philosophers - yours were not carefully chosen. And again: > >Let me try to state, in simple terms, why the sahopalambhaniyama-inferences >as presented >in this form does not state that "only ideas are real" and let me >assume, for the sake of argument, that no additional assumptions over >and above the inference as given in this form are to be introduced: Images >appear >in perceptual cognitions. These are said to be not different from the >perceptual cognitions themselves. >Leaving aside the many meanings which this "non-difference" can have, >one is at any rate justified in concluding that perceptual cognitions >*directly* >apprehend only what is given within them, or within consciousness. But >this does not preclude that blue objects, composed of atoms, *exist* - >only access to them is not possible in a direct fashion and must be >explained in a more indirect fashion. Hence, the >reality or existence of external entities is not per se incompatible >with the sahopalambhaniyama-inference. It may be possible to derive a >denial of some sort of external reality from other passages in >DharmakIrti's texts, but not from this one. > I am tempted to quote directly from several scholars i have read, who would disagree with what Mr/Ms Kellner says. It is tedious work, but i will try. I request Mr/Ms Kellner (forgive me, but i can't make out ur sex from ur name) and also other Budhist scholars (Stephen Hodge, etc) to comment on what follows: M.Hiriyana in "Outlines of Indian Philosophy" writes (pgs 204-206): "Budhistic idealism also is of two types: The first of them is pure subjectivism...The followers of this view are known as Yogacara...In fact in the triple factor commonly assumed wherever experience arises--"knower", "known", and "knowledge"--the last alone is here taken to be true. There is neither subject nor object but only a succession of ideas. The specific form which cognition at any particular instant assumes is determined in this view, not by an outside object presented to it, but by past experience. That is, the stimulus always comes from within, never from without. It is in no way dependent upon objects existing outside, but is to be traced to an impression ("vasana") left behind by past experience, which in its turn goes back to another impression, that to another experience and so on indefinitely in a beginningless series. At no particular stage in the series, it must be noted, is the experience due to an external factor. In other words, the ideas signify nothing but themselves. Since the Yogacara believes in the reality of nothing but these ideas ("vijnana"), he is also designated as "vijnana-vadin". We may mention some of the main arguments by which this extreme view is maintained. First comes the obvious analogy of dreams where experience arises without corresponding objects, and internal thoughts appear as external. The second argument is based upon the view which the Yogarcara holds in common with the rest of the Budhists that cognition becomes aware of itself. In self-cognizing cognition, we have a case in which what is known is identical with what knows; and the Yogacara argues that the same may be the case in all experience, there being no reason why an explaination which is not absurd in one case must be so in another. In the awareness of a jar also,knowledge and the known may be identical. All knowledge is thus only self-knowledge and the distinction felt between jnana and content is a delusion. A third support which the Yogacara cites in favour of his view is the invariable association ("sahopalambha-niyama") existing between cognition and its content. Thoughts and things always appear together; and neither without the other. There is consequently no need to assume that they are distinct, and they may well be viewed as different phases of one and the same factor. Lastly, it is argued that the so called objects are seen to impress different persons differently and even the same person at different times-- a circumstance which would be inexplicable if the objects were real, each having its own defined character. The arguments are much the same as those commonly advanced whenever subjectivism is sought to be maintained except for the additional circumstance that everything is conceived here as momentary. But they are by no means convincing. To take the last of them as an example: It is stated that objects of experience cannot have any intrinsic nature, for no two persons agree in their perceptions of them. The argument assumes not only that there is no agreement whatever between one perceiver and another in this respect, but also that when anything is presented, it must be apprehended precisely as it is. But it is forgotten that the content apprehended may have a subjective side and may, at the same time, point to a real object outside. Individual variations in the matter of perception do not, therefore, necessarily mean the non-existence of external objects." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I will deal with Dignaga later (i think its easier to be convinced that he was an idealist). Let us stick for now to Dharmakirti, and take a look at his "Sahopalambha niyama" (which Hiriyana has discussed above) and how modern scholars see it. On page 14 of his book "Perception: An essay on classical Indian theories of knowledge", B.K. Matilal writes (pg 14): "The classic argument of Dharmakirti in favor of Budhistic phenomenalistic idealism is summed up in an oft-quoted line from one of his lost works: "sahopalambha-niyanad abhedo nila-taddhiyoh", "the blue and our awareness of blue are non-distinct, for they are always apprehended together." The general idea is that if two entities are always and necessarily revealed together in our consciousness, we will have hardly any criterion for distinguising between them. The notion of blue as external to our awareness of it is thereby rendered extremely dubious. To counter this, Udayana has put his point synoptically in the following line-- "na grahya-bhedam avadhuya dhiyo 'sti vrttih": "There is no awareness that arises (in us) repudiating the distinctness of the apprehensible (object from the apprehension self)." -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Sat Jan 6 03:27:55 2001 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 08:57:55 +0530 Subject: Finding books Message-ID: <161227066327.23782.16694473545735450716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rosella, What books would you like to have? My daughter runs a book business. You may ask at They publish books and also deal books. With regards Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Professor of Sanskrit & Director Centre for Vedanta Studies University of Kerala Kariavattom P.O. Thiruvananthapuram,Kerala,India,PIN 695 581 E-mail ---------- > From: SuryaPrakash Sharma > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Finding books > Date: Saturday, January 06, 2001 6:43 AM > > Daniela Rossella wrote: > Dearest Colleagues, I am eagerly looking for a lot of Sanskrit texts (with > or without a translation in a Western language) and, as usual, I have sent > my order to a number of Indian bookshops. On 13th December "Motilal > Banarsidass" and "Books & Periodical Agency" have written to me "ok", but, > afterwards, unfortunately, I don't have received no more any news. The > "Indian Books Centre" has not these texts; and "Biblia Impex" did not answer > a word. So, can someone give to me an advice? > Many thanks in advance and sorry for this annoyance. > Yours, > Daniela Rossella > > ***************************************************** > Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella > Piazza Buzzati, 5 > 43100 PARMA (Italy) > tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 > cell. +39.0338 3198904 > ghezziem at tin.it > ***************************************************** > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 6 18:34:35 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 10:34:35 -0800 Subject: Dravidian golla and Hindi gvAla Message-ID: <161227066349.23782.6579592690533957860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ganesan, Plse bear with me. This is my last post on this thread. Indeed if golla > gvAla, how does it become kOvalan. Is it because the short 'o' was lacking in Old Tamil? I believe it is much simpler to derive the radical syllable of the Tamil word kOnAr (milkman), kOvalar from Skt go, gau than to look for it in a complicated essay on old Tamil literary landscapes. In any case the Old Tamil root for hills seems to be kvR where v stands for a vowel such as 'u', so it is not clear how one derives kOnAr and kOvalar (which do not even agree on the second consonant) from the root word for 'hill'. And oh btw before I forget, which came first, the sheep or the hills? First it was the rivers, now it is the castes. One point about these proposed etymologies: strange that there is a tendency to derive 'yamuna' from Dr roots while at the same time there is an adamant, almost fanatical, refusal to acknowledge that Tamil river names can not at all be satisfactorily derived using Dr roots. This brings me to M Witzel's point about Tamil scholars liking to believe that Tamils are autochthonous in Tamilnadu (cf EJVS paper on Substratum languages in the Rigveda). In a world where etymologies are a matter of faith, I prefer being a Dravida Kazhagam adherent :-) although without the "tamiz oru kATTumirANTI mozhi" rider :-) Also, I can not understand how a word for 'millet' in Hindi could be borrowed from Tamil when millet is originally an African crop. Also, most agricultural terminology in Dr, IA itself is shown to be borrowed from elsewhere (cf Masica). I see one of two things happening (sometimes both): 1. Common borrowings from third sources are attributed to Dr loans 2. Phonetic resemblances are used, with the help of complicated reasoning involving Tamil literary landscapes or equally extraneous stuff, to set up etymologies without adequate phonological/morphological considerations. Something of an Indological Soundex algorithm :-) Thanks and Warm Regards, LS --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > In Telugu, golla = a herdsman, a shepherd, ... > (C. P. Brown, Telugu-English dictionary, p. 389 ) > Further, Brown records that "golla" is derived from > "gorri" = A sheep. DED 1799 Ta. koRi sheep > ... Te. goRe, goRRe sheep .... > > For the Telugu word "goRe", compare the Tamil > cognates: > a)koRi 02 1. sheep; 2. aries, a constellation of the > zodiac > b)koRi-ttal 01 1. to nip off the husks of grains; to > nibble grain; 2. to > graze; > to pick up food here and there, as cattle; to eat > scantily; > c)koRRi 1. young calf; 2. cow with a young calf. > > gvaala in Hindi meaning herdsmen does not seem to be > transmuted from Skt. gopAla, even though this is > popularly > attested in modern dictionaries. > > Consider Hindi jvAr < ka. jOLa, ta. cOLam, co_n_nal, > tel. jonna. > (Though Mayrhofer 1953 EWA derives yananala from > yavana - Greek, Ionian etc.!) > > Just as hindi jvAr (= millet ...) < drav. jOLa, > the Hindi word gvAla ultimately has roots in drav. > golla, > and not Skt. gopAla. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > a) Like jvAr < drav. jOLa, and gvAla < drav. golla, > Hindi kvAn/kuA_n 'well" seem to be related with > DED 1518 Ta. tank, reservoir, lake, Ka. koLa, koNa. > .... It appears hindi kvAn < drav. koNa > > b) This process seems to be working in > Skt. jvAla, dhvani. Are jvAla and dhvani IE? > and are they attested in old Persian? > Thanks. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 6 18:01:10 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 13:01:10 -0500 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066338.23782.13355899905873271379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Prof. Georg von Simson and Prof. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann for their very valuable information. This helped confirm my suspicion that the moon as an example of rebirth was a north Indian idea. The excerpt I had quoted occurred in a CT poem by mutukaNNan2 cAttan2Ar whom I discuss in my article “Bards, Priests, Washerwomen, and the Ancient Tamil Society” at the Indology site, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan/bards/Bards01.htm The influence of north Indian religions on the early Tamil society has not been properly delineated until now. The theory of anaGku proposed by George Hart has contributed to this significantly for the past 25 years. Not having realized that the Dravidian linguistic phenomenon of radical u/o alternation was in operation in words such as poli and pulai, Dr. Hart had proposed that untouchability and caste system was indigenous to Tamil culture. This led to Hart’s paradoxical view of CT groups associated with the sacred being polluted people! This has misled a plethora of later work by scholars of religion and anthropology deriving the present plight of some Tamil people to beliefs traceable to the CT society. A proper linguistic analysis would have led to the conclusion that those associated with the sacred indeed were considered to be auspicious, just the opposite of Hart’s view. But, then this linguistic phenomenon seems to have outwitted Burrow and Emeneau as well. For instance, they include Ka pul ‘mean’ in DEDR 4301 with an implied *pul- but include Ta. pul ‘meanness’ and Ka. pol, polla ‘meanness’ in DEDR 4547 with an implied *pol-. As a result, it has not been realized until now that Jainism and Buddhism have a lot to do with the origin of untouchability in South India. The degradation of groups such as Ta. pulaiyan2, Ka. poleya, Ka. poleye should be attributed to these religions and not Vedic Brahmins. If anything, it seems Vedic Brahmins were not very disruptive and got along fine with native Tamil culture during CT days. The appellation, dark age, is very apt for the Kalabhra interregnum that followed the CT. The influence of Jainism and Buddhism had erased the historical memory regarding key CT cultural practices. Even the Bhakti cult which overthrew the influence of Jainism and Buddhism could not disavow all the ‘cultural baggage’ adopted from those religions. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jan 6 18:15:42 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 13:15:42 -0500 Subject: Correction:Re: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066344.23782.16508978702762873261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/6/2001 12:02:20 PM Central Standard Time, Palaniappa at AOL.COM writes: > The > degradation of groups such as Ta. pulaiyan2, Ka. poleya, Ka. poleye should > be attributed to these religions and not Vedic Brahmins. The above line should read: The degradation of groups such as Ta. pulaiyan2, Ka. poleya, Kod. poleye.. should be attributed to these religions and not Vedic Brahmins. I regret the error. Regards S. Palaniappan From jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Sat Jan 6 21:14:59 2001 From: jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (John Dunne) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 15:14:59 -0600 Subject: Yogacara idealism In-Reply-To: <18906331.20010106162151@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227066351.23782.5424500565716123536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is just a quick note in regard to sahupalambhaniyama; the following supports Birgit Kellner's position. [Abbreviations: PS = Pramaa.nasamuccaya; PSV = PS-v.rtti; PV = Pramaa.navarttika] In brief, Dharmakiirti's argument from the sahopalambhaniyama are NOT his primary critique against the existence of external objects (baahyaartha). This argument on its own cannot be used for this purpose because, to restate Dr. Kellner's point in a slightly different fashion, the sahoplambhaniyama is necessary to demonstrate the impossibility of external objects, but it is not in itself sufficient evidence for any such demonstration. This is best understood by recalling the primary purpose for the presentation of the sahopolambhaniyama: namely, to demonstrate that pramiti (equated here with pramaa.naphala) and pramaa.na are not distinct entities.The upshot is that the aakaara ("image") in cognition, inasmuch as it is identical to that cognition, is at once the means of knowledge (pramaa.na) and the knowledge itself (pramiti/pramaa.naphala). This holds true REGARDLESS of whether or not one accepts external objects. Dignaaga makes this point in PSV ad PS1.1.8cd-10 (Hattori 1968:28-29; cf. Hattori's notes, 1.55-67, pp.97-107). Dharmakiirti discusses the same issue at several points, the most salient being PV3.311-319 and PV3.334-341. Now, it is true that in the latter section (PV3.334-341), Dharmakiirti does indeed make an argument for the nonexistence of external objects (334-336). However, within that same section, he specifically explains how sahopalambhaniyama ALSO holds true when the object of perception is assumed to be other than the mind (PV3.339). This quite clearly demonstrates that the argument from the sahopalambhaniyama is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate the nonexistence of external objects. And without wishing to be harsh, I would say that any claims to the contrary are simply uninformed. If the argument from the sahopalambhaniyama is not sufficient to disprove external objects, why then would Dharmakiirti dismiss external objects when discussing this niyama at PV3.334-336? The reason is that he has already presented his definitive argument against external objects, and he is here simply building on that earlier discussion. The definitive argument is found at PV3.194-224, where Dharmakiirti analyses the possibility of citrataa in both the object of cognition and cognition itself. The upshot of this argument is that, at the highest level of analysis, external objects cannot exist because they cannot pass the test of being either one (eka) or many/variegated (citra, which in the finaly analysis amounts to being sthuula). When pushed to its limit, this argument leads to the conclusion that Dharmakiirti is an aliikaakaaravaadin, as is demonstrated by the earliest known commentaries on PV, namely, those of Devendrabuddhi and S'aakyabuddhi. At the risk of seeming immodest I will add that, in addition to covering portions of the above in my dissertation, I have also recently presented a (quite rough) paper on the topic along with translations of the relevant passages from PV. I hope to have some of this in print before too terribly long. Yours, John Dunne ========================= John D. Dunne Assistant Professor Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 6 15:44:54 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 15:44:54 +0000 Subject: pottakam = cuvaTi, and Hindi jOD- Message-ID: <161227066336.23782.13348200455446109804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a continuation of old mail on "pustaka". Both Paali and Tamil have "pottakam" for pustakam. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0012&L=indology&P=R25045 Consider the other word for "pottakam" in Tamil: cuvaTi. This "CuvaTi" has been used for books from ancient times which then were written on palm leaves and got bundled together. The verbal root for "cuvaTi" is "cuvaTutal" with meanings such as 1) joining (='poruntutal') 2) adding as a pair (='kUTTutal') 3) to impress a tracemark or footprint etc., Also, cuvaTi-ttal = to decorate (OTL) (OTL) cuvaTi 01 1. Ola book; 2. book, in general; 3. file, bundle, as of records. [In the Ola book, leaves are "joined" together]. (OTL) cuvaTu 01 1. track, footstep; 2. noise caused by foot-fall; 3. impression; 4. sign, indication; 5. scar, cicatrice, weal; [...] 12. tie; strap, as of harness; band, as of the ridge of a house; 13. strirrup 'cOTu/cuvaTu' are equivalent words like the pair kOTu/kuvaTu (Burrow derives skt. kapaTa from kuvaTu). OTL entries: cOTi= pair, cOTu= 1) a kind of legging for warriors, 2) pair, couple, brace, set 2) mate partner 3) pair of shoes, slippers. cOTu in the sense of protective shoes has been used from ancient times. mElOraik kIzOr kuRukik kuRaittiTTa kAl *cOTu* aRRa kazaRkAl iruGkaTaluL nIlac cuRAp piRazva pOn2Ra pun2al nATan2 nErArai aTTa kaLattu. - kaLavazi nARpatu "In the battle field where the king of the water-rich country routed his enemies, the shoe-strapped legs of the those sitting above (and riding horses) were severed by those below resembled the hungry sharks attacking from below in the dark seas." - Translated by Chandra. Interestingly, this "cOTu/cuvaTu" etc., (=to add, to join, to collect, to pair together etc.) from Dravidian is used in MIA in a variety of instances. R. S. McGregor, Oxford Hindi-English dictionary entries: a) jOTA [cf. H. joDA and juTnA, juTAnA], a pair b) jOD 1. a join; union, connection, joint, patch, seam c) jODtI = f. reg. adding, addition; counting d) jODan joining .. e) jODnA [*yoTayati; Pkt. jOdei] 1. to join; to unite, to connect, to attach f) jODlA = twin g) jODA = 1. a pair, a couple ... h) jODA = joined, ... i) jODI = a vehicle drawn bt two horses or bullocks. [Also: juT = a pair juTnA = to join juTAnA= to cause to collect juTAv = collecting, amassing juTTi = small bundle as of grass juDnA = to be joined juDAnA = to cause to be joined jutnA/jOtnA = to be attached jutAi= ploughing jutAnA= to cause be yoked ...] C. P. Masica, Aryan and Non-Aryan elements in North Indian agriculture, p. 100 Aryan and Non-Aryan in India, 1979. " joTA (Hindi) "ropes which go around the bullocks' necks" Skt. yOktra- 'thong, halter' (RV) *yuj, *yu fr. IE. " Rather than from IE roots, hindi jOTA and tamil cOTu are related in a straight forward manner. Regards, N. Ganesan ----------------------------- >The Pali "potthaka" is usually explained by Tamilists >from the following root words. Online Tamil Lexicon: > >I) pottu 1. covering, stopping, closing up; 2. mending, >botching, closing a hole; 3. rent or puncture; > >II) pottu-tal 01 1. to bury; 2. to cover, close, as the mouth, >eyes or ears, with the fingers or otherwise; 3. to close the >fingers together; 4. to mend, patch,botch, as baskets or bags; >5. to stitch; 6. to hide, conceal; 7. to beat, flog; 8. to >light, as a fire; 9. to tie, string together, as a wreath; >10. to invent, imagine; 11. to mix,unite; 12. to be filled Prof. Bharat Gupt wrote: <<< All these meanings of pusta are covered in the definitions of pusta gven in the Natyasastra in the context of costume and stage props. As the NS is a 5th cent bc text, the pre-sangam evidence of the use of pusta is clearly available and it is obvious that pusta was common to Tamil and Sanskrit at a very early date. >>> Thanks for the comments, but nowadays the NS dating has been brought forward by several centuries, is it not? Kind regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat Jan 6 21:21:51 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 16:21:51 -0500 Subject: Yogacara idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066334.23782.17841077269267822830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Saturday, January 06, 2001, 2:25:32 AM, Satya Upadhya wrote: SU> I am tempted to quote directly from several scholars i have read, who would SU> disagree with what Mr/Ms Kellner says. It is tedious work, but i will try. I SU> request Mr/Ms Kellner (forgive me, but i can't make out ur sex from ur name) SU> and also other Budhist scholars (Stephen Hodge, etc) to comment on what SU> follows: The quotes you indicate do not in fact disagree with what I have said, which once more suggests that you did not read carefully enough what I wrote before. As Hiriyanna states, "There is consequently no NEED to assume that they (sc. thoughts and things) are distinct, and they may well be viewed as different phases of one and the same factor" (emphasis mine). That is, from the sahopalambhaniyama-argument itself, it follows that the assumption of external reality is not NECESSARY in order to explain cognitions, but from this argument itself it does not follow that it is not POSSIBLE. Note also Matilal's rather cautious remark in this direction: "The notion of blue as external to our awareness of it is thereby (sc. by the sahopalambhaniyama-argument) rendered extremely DUBIOUS." Now, whether the tenet that the assumption of external reality is UNNECESSARY in order to explain human cognitive experience is counted as "idealism" is a matter of one's standards for idealism, but it should nevertheless be borne in mind that these arguments do not claim that external reality does not exist. --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner (Ms.) Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Jan 6 18:10:42 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 18:10:42 +0000 Subject: Yogacara idealism Message-ID: <161227066341.23782.14663798315405211715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya wrote: > I am tempted to quote directly from several scholars i have read, who would > disagree with what Mr/Ms Kellner says. It is tedious work, but i will try The trouble with the scholars you say you have read, such as Hiriyana here, is that they are not specialists (afaik) on Yogacara. You are, of course, perfectly entitled to reject the views of somebody like Lusthaus but he does specialize in Yogacara and might therefore be considered better informed. > "Budhistic idealism also is of two types: The first of them is pure > subjectivism...The followers of this view are known as Yogacara...In fact in > the triple factor commonly assumed wherever experience arises--"knower", > "known", and "knowledge"--the last alone is here taken to be true. There is > neither subject nor object but only a succession of ideas. Your author mentions in his first line "pure subjectivism" and then says "there is neither subject nor object" -- this seems a strange form of subjectivism to me. Moreover, where do the Yogacarins say that "knowledge" is true ? The term "ABHUUTA-parikalpa" is used synonymously for "vij~naana" ! > The specific form which cognition at any particular instant assumes is determined in this > view, not by an outside object presented to it, but by past experience. Note: "the SPECIFIC form" is what is determined. Have you come across the common example given in a number of Yogacaara texts, such as in Sthiramati's .tiikaa on the Madyaanta-vibhaaga (ad I.4), about a certain X which is experienced as liquid fire by hell denizens, pus and excrement by pretas, water by humans and am.rta by gods ? There is also the analogy involving the illusory elephant given by Vasubandhu in his Trisvabhaava-nirde`sa (vv27-30) where he distinguishes between "vij~aana" and "tattva" (v30). This seems strongly to suggest that there is some kind of external "object" though its _specific_ form is determined by the vaasanaas. I won't comment on the remainder of your quote for lack of time but perhaps the above is enough to contradict Hiriyana's presentation of the Yogacaara position. I would urge you, as has already been done, to read the primary sources yourself, restricting your reading intitially to the recognized classical Yogacaara authors (Maitreya, Asa`nga, Vasubandhu and Sthiramati). The position of both Dignaaga and Dharmakiirti is problematic -- in the Tibetan tradition which directly inherited and exhaustively studied their doctrinal lineage, they are considered more as Sautraantikas. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge PS: If I may speak for her, Birgit Kellner is a she as far as I know :) From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Jan 6 18:27:56 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 18:27:56 +0000 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066347.23782.10790274114111325025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > This led to > Hart’s paradoxical view of CT groups associated with the sacred being > polluted people! An interesting parallel exists in Japan with the "eta", a group whose social status and role later became similar to Indian out-castes / polluted peoples. During (and prior to) the Nara Period (C6th CE) in Japan Buddhism had just begun to make inroads but the native Shinto beliefs were still very pervasive. One trait of Shinto is the idea of "imi" (taboo / pollution). In its more extreme manifestation, anything which altered the natural balance of things was "imi", death, for example, and any contact which objects which caused a disturbance to the natural harmony was to be avoided because of the associated dangers. The people who eventually became "eta" were precisely those people who were thought to be endowed with extra-ordinary powers that made them immune to and able to deal with e.g. death, slaughtering, leather-working etc. At that time, the "eta" also were often orphans who were customarily adopted and raised by Buddhist monastic establishments. A gradual down-grading of the "eta" ocurred during the following centuries and was also accompanied by a parallel social devaluation of women in general, entertainers and a number of other occupational classes, a process that seems to have been motivated by a desire born of fear to control social groups who had previously been considered to be endowed with special abilities that did not conform to the status quo. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 7 07:48:56 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 23:48:56 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066361.23782.8423709397281087801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> yes, to con firn that someone else remarked saying Nathamuni, author of Yoga-Rahasya - a text of the 8th century AD - available today(?)- talks of "kumbhaka" when he talks about different techniques vt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 7 00:20:48 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 00:20:48 +0000 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066354.23782.18232745173536516632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >Another point for your consideration. The ancient >Tamil name for the town of kOval (tirukkOvalUr) is >iTaikazi. kOval could actually be a rendering of >iTaikazi, influenced perhaps by the first part of the >more obscure iTaikazi. My last request for reference. "Ancient name for the town of kOval is iTaikazi".?? I have read "kOval" as the place name, but not iTaikazi, in CT. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 7 00:34:08 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 00:34:08 +0000 Subject: Dravidian golla and Hindi gvAla Message-ID: <161227066356.23782.411231673782218605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >Indeed if golla > gvAla, how does it become kOvalan. >Is it because the short 'o' was lacking in Old Tamil? >I believe it is much simpler to derive the radical >syllable of the Tamil word kOnAr (milkman), kOvalar >from Skt go, gau than to look for it in a complicated >essay on old Tamil literary landscapes. In my earlier post suggesting Drav. golla > Hindi gvAla, the name kOvalar is mentioned nowhere. The different names in Dravidian for herdsmen like golla/goLLa (Telugu), kOvalar, kuRumpar and iTaiyar (Tamil) and Kurubaru/kuruva/kuruma (Kannada) come from different roots, and none of them, I believe, derive from skt. gopAla. Tel. golla is recorded by C. P. Brown among others are from goRRe 'sheep' (DED 1799). In South India even powerful landlord caste names do not come from Sanskrit. In Andhra, the landed castes kApu, kamma and the titles nAyuDu, nAyAka, Reddi have clear Dravidian roots. Then, how come a tribe of *low* social status called "golla" come from Sanskrit? As you derive golla from skt. gopAla, but the problem I see is their position in social hierarchy and low amount of sanskritization. Also, note that mostly they tend sheep and goats, and not cows. So, shepherd gollas naturally connect with goRRi 'sheep', rather than IE go, gau 'cow'. It is far easier to go from Dr. golla to Hindi gvAla than the romantic idea of skt. gopAla roots. >2. Phonetic resemblances are used, [...] , to set up etymologies without >adequate >phonological/morphological considerations. Insisting on a Sanskrit source derivation for the low status golla tribe is a good example. IE go, gau for sheep/goat herding golla tribe? But, I understand the problem: Even "pAdiri" Caldwell said Skt. draviDa > dramiDa > tamizh. It took quite a while to reverse the arrows to "prove" that "tamizh" indeed is the root, and not the other way around. But even now many Indologists are puzzled to learn that tamizh gave birth to draviDa. See my reply to Walker Trimble at: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9812&L=indology&P=R29464 Regards, N. Ganesan --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > In Telugu, golla = a herdsman, a shepherd, ... > (C. P. Brown, Telugu-English dictionary, p. 389 ) > Further, Brown records that "golla" is derived from > "gorri" = A sheep. DED 1799 Ta. koRi sheep > ... Te. goRe, goRRe sheep .... > > For the Telugu word "goRe", compare the Tamil > cognates: > a)koRi 02 1. sheep; 2. aries, a constellation of the > zodiac > b)koRi-ttal 01 1. to nip off the husks of grains; to > nibble grain; 2. to > graze; > to pick up food here and there, as cattle; to eat > scantily; > c)koRRi 1. young calf; 2. cow with a young calf. > > gvaala in Hindi meaning herdsmen does not seem to be > transmuted from Skt. gopAla, even though this is > popularly > attested in modern dictionaries. > > Consider Hindi jvAr < ka. jOLa, ta. cOLam, co_n_nal, > tel. jonna. > (Though Mayrhofer 1953 EWA derives yananala from > yavana - Greek, Ionian etc.!) > > Just as hindi jvAr (= millet ...) < drav. jOLa, > the Hindi word gvAla ultimately has roots in drav. > golla, > and not Skt. gopAla. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > a) Like jvAr < drav. jOLa, and gvAla < drav. golla, > Hindi kvAn/kuA_n 'well" seem to be related with > DED 1518 Ta. tank, reservoir, lake, Ka. koLa, koNa. > .... It appears hindi kvAn < drav. koNa > > b) This process seems to be working in > Skt. jvAla, dhvani. Are jvAla and dhvani IE? > and are they attested in old Persian? > Thanks. > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 7 14:25:42 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 06:25:42 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066367.23782.15044785005882269230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While inquiring into the origins of recaka, puuraka and kumbhaka, we should not neglect maatra, which is equally as important and fundamental to the discipline of pranayama as ?the three phases of respiration.? I presume maatra (time/count/ratio) correlates to Patanjali?s kaala. It seems that Patanjali used terms that were less technical and more literary, in order to be precise. Somewhere in Part II, he introduces several terms. If I?m not mistaken, baahya means, ?exhale? and ?bhyantara means, ?inhale.? Stambavrtti refers to the retention of the breath after exhalation or inhalation. This holding of the breath is supposed to be ?stable and supporting like a pillar.? Doesn?t _k?la_ refers to the ?duration? of exhalation, inhalation and retention? VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 7 15:43:09 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 07:43:09 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066369.23782.6728805084766266352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > yes, to confirm that someone else remarked saying > Nathamuni, author of Yoga-Rahasya - a text of the 8th > century AD - available today(?)- talks of "kumbhaka" > when he talks about different techniques Any relation with Nathamuni famous for the rediscovery and redaction of Srivaishnava Azhvar poetry? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 7 17:09:48 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 12:09:48 -0500 Subject: Variations in Satvalekaras Taittiriya Samhita Message-ID: <161227066372.23782.14972332335388567062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I've just made photocopies of chapters 5 and 7 of book 4 of Satvalekars edition of the Taittiriya Samhita from the Oriental Collection of the New York Public Library. At the end of each paragraph Satvalekar has what appears to be a list of variations in the section followed by a number with the conjunction "ca". (I'm using Harvard-Kyoto transliteration but will be placing the accent in front of the vowel it applies to.) For example at the end of TS.4.5.1 he has: (hast'e,_dikSvi,-S'ava,_ubhAbh_yAM, dvAvi&zAtizca) ||1 || which appears to be variations on the text as follows: 1) hast_e | hast'e 2) d_ikSu | d_ikSvi 3) iS'avaH | iS'ava 4) _ubhAbhy'Am_uta | _ubhAbhy_Am_uta Each paragraph of the text is followed by a similar list of variations. Can someone clarify for me what exactly Satvalekar is refering to. I was under the impression that there are no variations to the TS. Also what does the number with the conjunction "ca" refer to? Also at various places within the text he has placed asterixes sometimes followed by a single dash or by two dashes and sometimes preceeded by a dash. (see last lines of verse 4.5.9 and most lines of 4.5.11 and others). What do these symbols -*,*-,*-- refer to? As I mentioned I only have photocopies of chapters 4.5 and 4.7 and get into New York rarely so I can't refer to any notes or introduction of Satvalekars edition. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET Sun Jan 7 07:20:13 2001 From: kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET (Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 12:20:13 +0500 Subject: Airyanam Vaejah near Kazakhstan? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066359.23782.14009926941538140386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members A happy new millennium and a new year to all! This informed discussion brings to mind some very striking similarities between Zoroastrianism and the Vedic Tradition which might necessitate a review of accepted datings and placings. As an example of my contention, consider the three essential principles of Zoroastrianism : HUMATA, HUKTA and HUVRASHTA - Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds. Since the consonant pronounced as 's' in Sanskrit is usually observed to be aspirated in Persian as 'h' (e.g. Sapta-Sindhu = Hapta-Hindu), these three words explicating the basis of that faith may be Sanskritised as SUMATI, SU-UKTI and SUVRATASTHA without the slightest change in the meanings! The prefix "su" means 'good'. MATI is Sanskrit for the mind or intellect, UKTI for speech and VRATA for actions, conduct or behaviour. (VRATA-STHA describes a person committed to a certain pre-meditated act). The ease with which these three words - Humata, Hukta and Huvrashta - can be rendered into Sanskrit with unchanged meaning and fairly close pronunciation, might indicate the existence of a definite link between the two cultures. Two possibilities, perhaps among others, then arise. Either Zoroaster belonged to a region much nearer the Western frontiers of the Vedic Culture, or the Vedic Culture itself was extensive enough to include lands beyond the currently accepted limit. "Airyanam" Vaejeh, incidentally, makes a clear reference to the word "ARYA" - further indication of a commonality between the two cultures that is uncanny! There was apparently a tradition in ancient Egypt of the concept of MA'AT, something that might be equated with that of 'righteousness'. It was during the Hyksos usurpation of a part of Egypt with its capital at Memphis that the last Pharoah in that line, Apepi (Apophys) [c.1580 B.C.E.], conspired with his Prime Minister, Joseph (great-grandson of Abraham), and had the Egyptian Pharoah, Seqenenre-Tao (with his capital at Thebes), murdered in a futile attempt to extort the famed Egyptian secrets of kingship! (Seqenenre's mortal remains show clear signs of a violent end) One wonders, therefore, whether "Ma'at" isn't the same as the Sanskrit 'Mati' or the Zoroastrian 'Humata'? I request list members to comment. Regards BCP At 02:42 1/6/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Dear listmembers, > >Manfred Hutter discusses the plausible geographical origin and date of >Zarathustra and the Gathas in RELIGIONEN IN DER UMWELT DES ALTEN >TESTAMENTS, vol. I, Kohlhammer, Stuttgart/Berlin/Koeln, 1996. A few of his >conclusions might be interesting. > >1. Airyanam Vaejah is to be localized north of Khwarezm, it could have >extended as far as Kazakhstan (p. 195). > >2. He bases his dating on linguistic, "avestisch-textinterner", and >archaeological evidence, and concludes (p. 197): "Fasst man linguistische, {REST DELETED} Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan Kurundwad House 10A Mangaldas Road Pune - 411 001 India ================================================ "Until the Lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter" - (Attributed to a Black African Leader) =========================================================== From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 7 13:34:27 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 13:34:27 +0000 Subject: Yogacara idealism Message-ID: <161227066364.23782.15005721929025771897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The post i am sending now has been rejected twice before. Hope it can be read. Interesting to note that John Dunne believes that Dharmakirti denies the reality of external objects. Aside to John Dunne: According to you, has the "sahopalambha niyama" been successfully refuted by other Indian philosophers? -Satya > >I had sent the following msg yesterday to indology but it got rejected (2 >post limitation). Hence, am sending again. One point to be noted is this: >how do the opponents of the Yogacara view the sahopalambha niyama i.e. how >do they understand it? The argument, as they see it, can be framed in two >different ways: in the first way, one may conclude that the "object has no >reality apart from the idea, which means that it is the same as the idea." >In the second way, one may conclude that "the idea and the object are >experienced as identical and hence have to be admitted as identical." >[words >in quotes from "What is living and what is dead in Indian philosophy" , pgs >375 and 377] > >As i mentioned down below, one may understand the "sahopalambha niyama" >better if one reads the refutation of this argument by the opponents of the >Yogacara position (Vaibhasika budhists, Jains, Mimansakas, >Nyaya-Vaisesikas, >etc.). Such refutations do exist, and i have mentioned those who refute >this >argument in my post below. > >Comments from Stephen Hodge, birgit kellner and others would be much >appreciated. > >As an aside, i have to wonder whether being a Mahayana Budhist scholar >makes one develop a bias (so that any refutations, traditional or modern, >of >any Budhist idealistic arguments, like the "sahopalambha niyama", are not >taken seriously). > >-Satya > > > > >In his "What is living and What is dead in Indian Philosophy", D.P. > >Chattopadhyaya writes in the chapter "Idealism and Logic: A >clarification" > >(pgs 56-59): > > > >"Though Indian idealism, generally speaking, seeks its sanction from the > >outright condemnation of the pramanas, a section of the later > >representatives of Vijnana-vada--apparently flouting the attitude of >their > >own predecessors or the earlier Vijnana-vadins--somehow or other develop >a > >keen interest in the problems of the pramanas. The most prominent of them > >are Dignaga, Dharmakirti and their followers. They cannot do this without > >taking the pramanas seriously. And the fact is that they attach great > >importance to these. As Dharmakirti opens one of his shorter works with >the > >assertion: "All successful human action presupposes right knowledge. >Right > >knowledge is twofold, namely direct experience ("pratyaksa") and >inference > >("anumana"). Thus these philosophers remain idealists, wanting to outgrow > >at > >the same time the anxiety of their fellow philosophers to condemn or >reject > >the truth of experience and reason. > > > >Are we then to amend the generalised claim that obscurantism is one of >the > >main pillars of Indian idealism? We are going to argue that we need not >do > >this, for the commitment to idealism on the part of these philosophers > >does > >not fully fit with their enthusiasm for logic. > > > >To begin with, let us not the fact that are quite indisputable. > > > >First, ther is no doubt that Dignaga and Dharmakirti are fully committed >to > >the general metaphysical position of vijnana-vada, or the view that ideas > >and ideas alone are real. As a matter of fact, some of the most > >sophisticated arguments in defense of this view are evolved by them. > >Secondly, there is no doubt either that they are among the most advanced >of > >the Indian thinkers who discuss the problems of the pramanas, admitting >the > >validity of these. As it is rightly pointed out, they infuse Indian logic > >and epistemology with a new vitality and introduce reforms of far >reaching > >consequence into these. > > > >However, admitting both these facts, we are still left with an important > >question. How far does their renewed interest in the pramanas strictly > >agrees with their commitment to idealism? Are they logicians in the real > >capacity of being idealists? The question is too important to be > >overlooked, > >though for discussing it even in bare outlines we have to digress into >some > >technical details of their writings. > > > >To begin with , the actual interpreters of Dignaga and Dharmakirti see >some > >difficulty about the question and none of them manages to claim > >straightaway > >that the Masters write their works on the pramanas with an exclusive > >commitment to idealism. > > > >The most important interpreter of Dignaga is Jinendrabudhi, without whose > >detailed commentary on the main work of Dignaga (Pramana samuccya), it > >would > >be practically incomprehensible for modern scholars. Jinendrabudhi is > >placed > >in the 8th century A.D. Most popular among commentars of Dharmakirti are > >Vinitadeva and Dharmatottara. The special importance for us of >Vinitadeva's > >commentary is its simplicity and literalism. He is primarily interested >in > >explaining the plain meaning of what Dharmakirti says. Vinitadeva belongs > >to > >the 7th century A.D. Dharmottara, who belongs roughly to the next >century, > >is more scholastic. For understanding his commentary we have often to > >depend > >on a subcommentary written on it called the > >"Nyayabindu-tika-tippani"--often > >referred to briefly as "tippani"--by somebody whose name is controversial > >but who is probably a junior contempory of Dharmottara. > > > >These then are the interpreters of Dignaga and Dharmakirti, on whom we >have > >to depend. It is therefore not of little interest to note that that none >of > >them finds it permissible to assert outright that the discussion of the > >pramanas on the part of the Masters is fully consistent with their > >idealism..... > > > >...Interestingly, the same difficulty is felt by Vinitadeva, when he >wants > >to be clear about the actual metaphysical position from which Dharmakirti > >writes on the pramanas. He can see that this position is not that of the > >uncompromising idealist. So he says that Dharmakirti has the intention of > >explaining the views of both the Sautantrikas and Yogacaras. This cannot > >but > >appear strange to us, when we remember that Sautantrika is the name of an > >earlier form of Budhist philosophy, whose firm commitment to the reality >of > >the external world is obligatory for the Yogacaras or Vijnana-vadins to > >reject outright. Dharmottara makes no comment on this point, but his > >commentator--the author of the "tippani"--comes out with the startling > >declaration that , though otherwise a famous follower of Vijnana-vada, > >Dharmakirti in fact writes the work on logic not from the viewpoint of >the > >idealist but accepting for the purpose the standpoint of the Sautantrikas > >i.e. admitting the reality of the world." > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Chattopadhyaya then goes on to describe the above in some detail (giving > >extensive quotes from the original sources). > > > >He also gives the "Sahopalambha-niyama" argument in some detail in his > >book, > >and then goes on to give the refutations of this particular argument from > >four different directions--from the Vaibhashika buddhist Subhagupta; the > >Jain philosopher Akalanka ; Kumarila Bhatta of the Mimansa school; and >the > >Nyaya-Vaisesika philosophers. > > > >Comments on the above, from Birgit Kellner, Stephen Hodge, and other > >Budhist > >scholars, sincerely solicited. > > > >-Satya > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 01:06:19 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 17:06:19 -0800 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066390.23782.1428771827992969548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > >Another point for your consideration. The ancient > >Tamil name for the town of kOval (tirukkOvalUr) is > >iTaikazi. kOval could actually be a rendering of > >iTaikazi, influenced perhaps by the first part of > the > >more obscure iTaikazi. > > My last request for reference. "Ancient name for > the town of kOval is iTaikazi".?? > I have read "kOval" as the place name, but not > iTaikazi, in CT. I had forgotten your appetite for references :-) I'm away from my books but you may want to check EI v. 8, Inscriptions of Rajendra. I remember this to have some text concerning a closely associated caturvedimangalam and the temple iTaikazi. Regards, LS PS: What about cEntan tiruvaicaippa (verse 4 or 5)? Do you have the text of it? It does, I remember, refer to a "tiruviTaikkazi" but it may be a different one. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 01:19:37 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 17:19:37 -0800 Subject: Dravidian golla and Hindi gvAla Message-ID: <161227066393.23782.11116891859299305966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > In South India even powerful landlord caste names > do not come from Sanskrit. In Andhra, the landed > castes kApu, kamma and the titles nAyuDu, nAyAka, > Reddi have clear Dravidian roots. Then, how come > a tribe of *low* social status called "golla" > come from Sanskrit? As you derive golla from > skt. gopAla, but the problem I see is their > position in social hierarchy and low amount > of sanskritization. Also, note that mostly > they tend sheep and goats, and not cows. > So, shepherd gollas naturally connect with > goRRi 'sheep', rather than IE go, gau 'cow'. I think it'd be a hard sell to insist that *low* caste names have to come from Dr roots. > > It is far easier to go from Dr. golla to > Hindi gvAla than the romantic idea of > skt. gopAla roots. Hey, I'm not romantic about shepherds (most of them are men :-), sheep or their woolly by-product :-) Nor am I romantic about Skt or Dr roots :-) In fact I'm not even romantic about etymologies ... plse look up my post in Indology in which I had sent the url of an interview with D Shulman. Plse review his comments on the obsession with etymologies in the South Indian context. I fully subscribe to his views. Yes, I do sometimes react to posts on etymologies. Especially when I find something far more obvious ... as in the case of a suggested etymology yamuna < tozunai etc I hope you understand. LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 01:31:08 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 17:31:08 -0800 Subject: Moon and Cycle of death and rebirth Message-ID: <161227066398.23782.1118706832320847776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > S. Palaniappan to reply the details asked my sp,i would give her reference of a hyme of yajurveda(i am not getting reference,but it is available in all the branches of yajurveda,that is TS,MS,KS,VS etc.,"ko ekaki charati,kaschit jayate punah,ko himasya bheshajam,kaschit aasiit pilippilla,THAT IS WHO MOVES ALONE,WHO TAKES BIRTH AGAIN AND AGAIN,WHAT IS THE MEDICINE FOR COLD,AND WHICH IS LOOSENED ONE. THE NEXT RITUAL REPLIES AS FOLLOWS:SUURYA EKAAKII CHARATI,CHANDRAMA JAYATE PUNAH,AGNIR HIMASYA BHESHAJAM,RAATRII ASIIT PILLIPPILLAH,THAT IS THE SUN MOVES ALONE,THE MOON TAKE BIRTH AGAIN AND AGAIN.FIRE IS THE MEDICINE OF COLD AND NIGHT IS THE LOOSENED ONE. IT LEARLY DEFINES THAT THE PATH TOWORDS MOON IS FOR THOSE WHO HAS TO TAKE REBIRTH.where as the yogis and liberated souls goes through the SUN. (unfortunately my documents and index to YV is not with me,you can find it from any YV index ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 02:14:19 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 18:14:19 -0800 Subject: question on recaka-pUraka-kumbhaka Message-ID: <161227066400.23782.10705838949124908639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: <> According to my informant, yes. Nathamuni is the yogi-musician, the disciple of Nammalvar or Shathakopa. He composed two texts: Nyayatattva and Yogarahasya. The former is an extensive work on the darshana's, Nyaya, Mimamsa and Vedanta. Nathamuni's grandson was Yamunacharya. There are many indirect references to Yogarahasya, but apparently, the text is lost. vt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 7 23:23:10 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 18:23:10 -0500 Subject: Variations in Satvalekaras Taittiriya Samhita Message-ID: <161227066383.23782.6343909997479764866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Valerie Roebuck wrote: >Harry Spier writes: > > > >Each paragraph of the text is followed by a similar list of variations. >Can > >someone clarify for me what exactly Satvalekar is refering to. I was >under > >the impression that there are no variations to the TS. Also what does >the > >number with the conjunction "ca" refer to? > >There's something very similar in J. L. Shastri's edition of the TaittirYya >UpaniSad (UpaniSatsaMgrahaH, Motilal Banarsidass, 1970, pp. 21-31). Here >it appears to be a sort of aide-memoire, giving the initial word (or two) >of each paragraph followed by the number of verses in it. > Satvalekar at the end of each chapter of his edition of Taittiriya Samhita has such a list that Valerie Roebuck describes. I.e. the first word of each paragraph of that chapter followed by what appears to be a word count for the paragraph. But in addition after each paragraph of the chapter Satvalekar has a list of what appear to be variations and within the body of the paragraph numeric references to where the variations apply. From the example I gave in my original posting it can be seen that most of the variations he lists are variations in accentuation but not all. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jan 8 00:19:48 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 19:19:48 -0500 Subject: Yogacara idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066375.23782.2271790444052392024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First a general remark concerning Satya Upadhya's message on Buddhist pramANa, SautrAntika and YogAcARa, which might also be of interest considering Stephen Hodge's comment about there being a problem taking DharmakIrti to be a YogAcArin; further below a few more specific remarks (or rather quibbles). The problem, hinted at by Chattopadhyaya, how pramANa-tenets can be advanced by an idealist arises only when being an idealist is taken to mean that a philosopher is to advance only idealistic arguments about the world at large. Once it is taken into account that DharmakIrti advances a number of arguments on different levels of philosophical discourse that address diverse religious and philosophical concerns, the problem quite simply vanishes: Some of the arguments that he advances address YogAcAra concerns and are to be interpreted on the background of YogAcAra doctrines, others do not. This insight is neither new nor revolutionary; the fact that DharmakIrti's commentators sometimes say "this definition has been advanced in a fashion that is consistent both with SautrAntika and YogAcAra", and at other times say nothing of that sort can be taken as an indication that the relevance of certain doctrinal notions to some contexts and their irrelevance to others was perfectly clear to them (though they might have held different views about which notions are relevant in which contexts, of course). For this reason, I generally prefer to attribute adjectives like "idealist" or "representationalist" to specific tenets or arguments rather than to the philosophers that hold or advance them - Tibetan doxographical assertions, which are interesting in their own rights, nonwithstanding. This means that it is of course possible to rely on tenets found in DharmakIrti's works in order to find out what YogAcAra is and what it isn't, or rather what it can be and cannot be - one simply has to be careful what arguments to rely on. I believe, and I think that John Dunne would agree with me on this, that the sahopalambhaniyama-argument is not a particularly good argument to rely on for such an investigation, and I frankly don't understand why it is considered as necessary by Satya Upadhya to concentrate on this argument for an examination of whether or not YogAcAra can be considered as "idealism". John has indicated a couple of better starting-points in his message. Here come a few more specific remarks: >> >The most important interpreter of Dignaga is Jinendrabudhi, without whose >> >detailed commentary on the main work of Dignaga (Pramana samuccya), it >> >would >> >be practically incomprehensible for modern scholars. Jinendrabuddhi is the only one whose commentary on DignAGas PS has been transmitted. Arguing that he is *therefore* the most important interpreter of DignAga is quite a stretch - philosophically speaking, I would say that DharmakIrti is the most important interpreter of DignAga. Furthermore, even if it is not possible to make textual sense of a text without reading a certain commentary, this does not mean that one has to accept all philosophical interpretations of that commentary, nor that these interpretations are particularly important either historically or philosophically. >>Most popular among commentars of Dharmakirti are >> >Vinitadeva and Dharmatottara. Most populare where, when, and with whom? Dharmottara's importance for the development of the Buddhist epistemological tradition nonwithstanding, I fail to see the crucial importance of VinItadeva, whose textual interpretations - and philosophical interpretations he hardly provides anyway - are on the whole treated with great scepticism by (guess whom) Dharmottara. Arriving at an idea about the philosophical impact of DharmakIrti's writings on the basis of VinItadeva's commentary seems a quite futile undertaking to me, given the character of VinItadeva's work. >> Dharmottara, who belongs roughly to the next >>century, >> >is more scholastic. For understanding his commentary we have often to >> >depend >> >on a subcommentary written on it called the >> >"Nyayabindu-tika-tippani"--often >> >referred to briefly as "tippani"--by somebody whose name is controversial >> >but who is probably a junior contempory of Dharmottara. Actually, the TippanI is only transmitted for a part of the first chapter of the NyAyabinduTIkA, so we cannot depend on it for reading Dharmottara's NyAyabinduTIkA on the whole. What *we* rely on most in case of problematic passages is the sub-commentary of Durvekamizra, entitled "DharmottarapradIpa". >> > >> >These then are the interpreters of Dignaga and Dharmakirti, on whom we >>have >> >to depend. It is therefore not of little interest to note that that none >>of >> >them finds it permissible to assert outright that the discussion of the >> >pramanas on the part of the Masters is fully consistent with their >> >idealism..... These are by no means the only interpreters of DignAga and DharmakIrti, nor are they necessarily the most competent ones for all contexts and purposes. Furthermore, I would like to know on what basis it is asserted that neither of them finds it "permissible" to claim full consistency between idealism and the discussion (which one in particular?) of pramANas. As stated above, idealist notions are simply not relevant to certain arguments in DharmakIrti's works, so it is quite understandable why certain interpreters do not regard it as necessary to expressly state full consistency with idealism, or YogAcAra. In general, it is quite dubious to argue from "N.N. does not state that A is fully consistent with B" to "N.N. does not consider it as permissible to state that A is fully consistent with B". I do not state that this my message is fully consistent with English grammar, yet I would consider it permissible to do so (provided that it were necessary, and provided, of course, it really were fully consistent with English grammar :-)). --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Jan 7 20:20:41 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 20:20:41 +0000 Subject: Variations in Satvalekaras Taittiriya Samhita In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066381.23782.11027287582973579456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier writes: > >Each paragraph of the text is followed by a similar list of variations. Can >someone clarify for me what exactly Satvalekar is refering to. I was under >the impression that there are no variations to the TS. Also what does the >number with the conjunction "ca" refer to? There's something very similar in J. L. Shastri's edition of the TaittirYya UpaniSad (UpaniSatsaMgrahaH, Motilal Banarsidass, 1970, pp. 21-31). Here it appears to be a sort of aide-memoire, giving the initial word (or two) of each paragraph followed by the number of verses in it. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jan 8 01:24:42 2001 From: fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Makoto FUSHIMI) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 20:24:42 -0500 Subject: EJVS 6-2 In-Reply-To: <3A533780.F68A7B51@memphis.edu> Message-ID: <161227066395.23782.16184124303097227663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now the tables in the following article is replaced in the website. Please use fixed-width font in your Browser for better appearance of the tables. > > 3.B. N. Narahari Achar > > > > Searching for nakSatras in the Rgveda > > > > This issue is now available on the EJVS web site. > > > > Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs Sincerely yours, Makoto Fushimi -- FUSHIMI, Makoto From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Jan 7 20:31:56 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 20:31:56 +0000 Subject: Ajatasatru in Upanisads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066378.23782.7520685472049968759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya writes: >Ajatasatru, King of Magadha, is recognised to have been a contempory of the >Budha. Now, we also have an Ajatasatru in the Upanisads. Could someone tell >me whether these two Ajatasatru's are one and the same? I have briefly discussed this question in the Introduction to my translation of The UpaniSads (Penguin India, 2000), pp. xiii-xv--see references given there. To summarize: I think they are not, but some others, notably J. Bronckhorst (The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India, Franz Steiner, Stuttgart, 1986, pp. 112-3), think they are. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 04:46:19 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 01 20:46:19 -0800 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066404.23782.12760158296774239157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Deare Dr karve, i am sending you an article concerned with your surname"karve" spsharma, "Narayan R.Joshi" wrote: Raveen Satkurunathan"--Many South Indian derived Sinhalese coastal castes in Sri Lanka namely Karave---claim that they are descendants of Kurus of Mahabharat fame...". I do not know connection between Karave and Kuru is based on true tradition or just based on phonetic similitude. I know however that Kurus and Kambojas in the past did reach Shri Lanka as attested by the presence of these name in the ancient cave inscriptions of Lanka.The Rajput queen Padmini who prefered fire to the capture of Allauddin Khilji was the princess of Lanka from the princely family related to the ancient Kambojas. The Sinhelese believe their connection to the north-west of the Indian sub-continent.And the ancient names of states of Gujarat, Maharashtra,and Karnatak were different. The ancient name of the Jog fall(near Sharvati) from Karnatak state is available. All this information project pre-history of India different from the one we are told to accept without questioning.Thanks. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Jan 8 00:30:01 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 00:30:01 +0000 Subject: Airyanam Vaejah near Kazakhstan? Message-ID: <161227066386.23782.5896455000610225396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan wrote: > One wonders, therefore, whether "Ma'at" isn't the same as the Sanskrit 'Mati' > or the Zoroastrian 'Humata'? This is dubious, I think. For one thing the vocalization of Egyptian words is merely a convention as they were not indicated in hieroglyphic script so nobody knows whether "ma'at" was really pronounced thus.. Also etymologically, the word "ma'at" is a feminine noun (-t ending) derived from the verb " m*' "-- "be proper, be true". I do not know what the conventions for plain text representation of Egyptian sounds is, but here my "*" is a glotteral stop and " ' " (as in yr ma'at) is the consonantal 'ayin gutteral -- i.e the latter is not just a little apostrophe that happnes to get in the way. Thus "m*' " is a tripartite root which is attested as far back as the Pyramid Texts. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 8 02:24:17 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 02:24:17 +0000 Subject: Govala/Golla and tamil KOvalar tribes Message-ID: <161227066402.23782.9118373529947676040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >>Another point for your consideration. The ancient >>Tamil name for the town of kOval (tirukkOvalUr) is >>iTaikazi. kOval could actually be a rendering of >>iTaikazi, influenced perhaps by the first part of >>the more obscure iTaikazi. N. Ganesan wrote: << My last request for reference. "Ancient name for the town of kOval is iTaikazi".?? I have read "kOval" as the place name, but not iTaikazi, in CT. >> LS wrote: >I had forgotten your appetite for references :-) Without the references, one never knows whether it's the mailer's personal view, or attested in original sources. >I'm away from my books but you may want to check EI v. >8, Inscriptions of Rajendra. I remember this to have >some text concerning a closely associated >caturvedimangalam and the temple iTaikazi. But the temple iTaikazi in Rajendra I's mid-11th century inscription is at least 1000 years later than kOval in CT. >Regards, LS >PS: What about cEntan tiruvaicaippa (verse 4 or 5)? Do >you have the text of it? It does, I remember, refer to >a "tiruviTaikkazi" but it may be a different one. TiruviTaikkazi, in Tanjore disrict is famous for the Muruhan temple, and at a far distance to kOval which really is in S. Arcot! Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 8 05:22:56 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 05:22:56 +0000 Subject: Yogacara idealism Message-ID: <161227066407.23782.2863512759177206628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> birgit kellner on Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:19:48 -0500: >I believe, and I think that John >Dunne would agree with me on this, that the >sahopalambhaniyama-argument is not a particularly good argument to >rely on for such an investigation, and I frankly don't understand why >it is considered as necessary by Satya Upadhya to concentrate on this >argument for an examination of whether or not YogAcAra can be >considered as "idealism". --> The sahopalambha niyama argument can be framed in two different ways (as i pointed out in my earlier post). You do not dispute this, so i presume u agree with what i said on how the two variations of the argument can be framed. --> In both variations of this argument, there is a denial of the independent existence of the external object. This is why i think it serves the purpose of "idealism". >Jinendrabuddhi is the only one whose commentary on DignAGas PS has >been transmitted. Arguing that he is *therefore* the most important >interpreter of DignAga is quite a stretch - philosophically speaking, >I would say that DharmakIrti is the most important interpreter of >DignAga. --> Do you dispute the fact that the PS is the most important work of Dignaga? >>Furthermore, even if it is not possible to make textual sense >of a text without reading a certain commentary, this does not mean >that one has to accept all philosophical interpretations of that >commentary, nor that these interpretations are particularly important >either historically or philosophically. --> How do you propose to make sense out of the PS if you refuse to follow the commentary of Jinendrabudhi, if his is the only commentary on the work. I am not saying u need to follow him blindly, but you do have to recognize his importance. > > >>Most popular among commentars of Dharmakirti are > >> >Vinitadeva and Dharmatottara. > >Most populare where, when, and with whom? Dharmottara's importance for >the development of the Buddhist epistemological tradition >nonwithstanding, I fail to see the crucial importance of VinItadeva, >whose textual interpretations - and philosophical interpretations he >hardly provides anyway - are on the whole treated with great >scepticism by (guess whom) Dharmottara. Arriving at an idea about the >philosophical impact of DharmakIrti's writings on the basis of >VinItadeva's commentary seems a quite futile undertaking to me, >given the character of VinItadeva's work. > --> I have taken a look at Vinitadeva's commentary, and i personally found it to be illuminating in as much as we get the hint from him first that Dharmakirti may be writing his book ["Nyaya Bindu"] not from the Yogacara position but from the Sautantrika position. --> Your argument that we ought to disregard Vinitadeva because Dharmottara disagrees with him appears presumptious. To give an example, Kumarila Bhatta of the Mimansa school has three major commentators--Parthasarathi Mishra being the most important one. On a few important issues, Parthasarathi disagrees with the other commentators on interpreting Kumarila. This doesn't mean that we need to disregard what the other commentators wrote. >Actually, the TippanI is only transmitted for a part of the first >chapter of the NyAyabinduTIkA, so we cannot depend on it for reading >Dharmottara's NyAyabinduTIkA on the whole. What *we* rely on most in >case of problematic passages is the sub-commentary of Durvekamizra, >entitled "DharmottarapradIpa". --> As i have read, the Tippani is quite clear in that Dharmakirti does not discuss the problem of perception from the Yogacara standpoint, and that he actually assumes the position of a Sautantrika philosopher, assuming for the purpose the reality of the external world. Here is a sentence from the Tippani (19), as quoted by Chattopadhyaya in his book: "bahyanayena Sautantrika-matanusarena acaryena laksanam krtam". >These are by no means the only interpreters of DignAga and >DharmakIrti, nor are they necessarily the most competent ones for all >contexts and purposes. At least give some names if you dispute this so strongly. (I may mention that Chattopadhyaya is a highly respected scholar, so one would not expect him to make such childish mistakes as you imply.) Furthermore, I would like to know on what basis >it is asserted that neither of them finds it "permissible" to claim >full consistency between idealism and the discussion (which one in >particular?) of pramANas. --> As i understand, if you wish to work with pramanas you have to admit the independent existence of external objects (or else you have to change your defn. of the pramanas, as Dignaga in fact does). If you insist that ideas-and ideas alone- are real, and still wish to work with pramanas, then you do have a problem. --> I understand that you (and Stephen Hodge) dispute this claim that the Yogarcara philosophers admit the reality of only ideas, but that is not what i have read. (Already i gave u extensive quotes of Hiriyanna and Chattopadhyaya for this purpose.) Would you care to comment on why there is this seemingly appaling discrepancy between how scholars are viewing the Yogacara? As stated above, idealist notions are simply >not relevant to certain arguments in DharmakIrti's works, so it is >quite understandable why certain interpreters do not regard it as >necessary to expressly state full consistency with idealism, or >YogAcAra. --> As i mentioned earlier, you either admit the independent existence of objects in the world or you deny this and admit that only ideas are real. If you deny them, and still wish to work with pramanas (which presuppose the independent existence of objects) then you have a problem. --> It is for this purpose that Dignaga drops the principle of "abhranta" ("non-illusory") in his defn of perception , so as to make his work on pramanas consistent with the denial of external objects with Yogacara. [ Vachaspati Mishra (c. 9th century), reacting to Dignaga's defn. of perception, comments that: "The master has dropped the characterestic of non-illusoriness, since this non-illusoriness is suicidal for his whole system." (quoted in Chattopadhyaya 65)] Dharmakirti includes the principle of "abhranta" in his defn. of perception and he no longer remains a Yogacara when he does that, and that is why he creates a problem for his commentators. >In general, it is quite dubious to argue from "N.N. does >not state that A is fully consistent with B" to "N.N. does not consider it >as permissible to state that A is fully consistent with B". I agree. I had typed out some intro material, and had clarified in my last post that Chattopadhyaya goes into details after the intro. I wanted u to read the intro, because your views are a lot different from his and also several other scholars on the Yogacara. Here is another quote from Chattopadhyaya (pgs 62-63): "There is thus no doubt that in his logic Dharmakirti is making statements that are apparently peculiar for a strict Vijnana-vadin. He says "arthakriya-samarthya-laksanatvad vastunah": a real thing ("Vastu": real thing?) is that which is characterised by the capacity of producing practical success. What does Dharmakirti mean by this? What, in particular, does he mean by "object", when as a Vijnana-vadin he is convinced that only knowledge or idea is real? Dharmakirti comes out with a remarkable answer to this. "How knowledge," he says, "which is the sole existing reality, can appear in the form of objects, even i do not know..Just as people, under the spell of magic, see pieces of mud, etc. not in their own form but in certain other forms, so does knowledge appear there not in its own form but in the form of objects" (NB i.14). This is way of saving idealism no doubt, and, as we shall see, it is perhaps the way in which Dignaga also wants to save idealism. But the consequence of this for logic is disastrous. It means that as a consistent idealist he cannot really speak of objects over and above bare knowledge, which, for the purposes of logic, he is obliged to do. When he is doing this, he is acting like one under the general spell of magical illusion--deluded by the appearance of objects where there are actually none. The discussion of the pramanas, in other words, are discussions only within the general framework of illusion. This is the position of the Sunya-vadins, Maya-Vadins, and early Vijnana-vadins. And if this is also the real position of Dignaga and Dharmakirti, what after all does their enthuiasm for discussing right knowledge of objects really mean? Apparently it is not easy to reconcile logic with idealism and Dharmakirti perhaps feels that the easiest way to proceed in logic is to feign indifference to the problem of such reconciliation. Thus, he declares, "Closing, like elephants, our eyes to the real situation, we proceed like ordinary people to consider the nature of objects" (PV iii.353-5). This, it is not difficult to see, is more of the nature of the admission of a crisis than a resolution of it. The crisis is most sharply felt in the understanding of direct experience or perception as a pramana..." -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 14:15:34 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 06:15:34 -0800 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066416.23782.15590883120865683301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CilappatikAram (5th cent. ?) has karunaTar, and later texts has the country name as kan2n2a- in tamil texts. Do we have other examples where -mn- become -nn- in Kannada? as in kam-nADu to kannADu. --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Am Sam, 30 Dez 2000 schrieb N. Ganesan: > > > Both the words, Karnataka and KannaDa go back to the > > same roots in Dravidian, and they are not from any > > other langauge root as far as I can see. I would > > very much appreciate and request Kannada scholars like > > Prof. Vasundara Filliozat, Dr. Harihareshvara > > and Prof. R. Zydenbos on this list to explain > > how the words, KannaDa and Karnataka are explained > > in KannaDa sources. [...] > > > karnATaka/kannAD can be explained in two ways: > > a) "kalnAD" = boulder country, part of Deccan, > > also, 'malEnAD' in Hassan area. > > or > > b) "karunAD" = country of black earth, > > Usually black earth signifies fertility > > and hence praised. > > I seek guidance from KannaDa experts as to > > whether a) or b) is correct. > > The etymology of "Kannada" is unclear. According to R. > Narasimhacharya in his _History of the Kannada Language_, it was H. > Gundert (of the famous Malayalam dictionary) who first suggested > kar-naa.du "the black country", and Caldwell apparently saw no better > explanation. But Narasimhacharya writes that "the Kannadigas themselves > are not likely to designate their language 'the black country > language'" (which I agree with, since most of the land is not black). > Others have suggested karu-naa.du "the elevated country". > > N.'s own suggestion is that 'Kannada' derives from kammitu-naa.du, > "land of fragrance", analogous to the meanings of sweetness and > pleasantness given to 'Telugu' and 'Tamil', and referring to lotus > ponds and the sandalwood that grows in Karnataka. I think that N.'s > explanation does not look bad, esp. since there is also a word 'kammu' > meaning "fragrance" (with derivatives like kammida.l, 'a fragrant > woman', etc.), so the land could have been kam-naa.du, from which > 'Kannada' as name of the language is derived. ('Kar.naa.ta' etc. look > very much like Sanskritisations.) > > Robert Zydenbos > Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik > Universit?t M?nchen > E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li > Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 8 14:43:31 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 09:43:31 -0500 Subject: More on Taittiriya Samhita texts Message-ID: <161227066419.23782.16404182181142943248.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Firstly one of the list members has replied to me privately about my question about the word lists following each paragraph in Satvalekaras edition of the T.S. He has indicated that these are a list of each 50th word in the paragraph with a difference of accentuation or sandhi because the section is treated as an independent unit. Can someone answer the following regarding TS texts and manuscripts: 1) dIrgha svarita Satvalekaras edition and Sastri and Rangacharyas edition of the TS do not mark dIrgha svarita (Satvalekar has svarita where my chanting books for the Rudram have dIrgha svarita. Sastri and Rangacharyas edition does not have the 4th kANDa). Is dIrgha svarita not marked in TS manuscripts (or generally in the texts) ? 2) Double chandrabindu Sastri and Rangacharyas edition of the TS has two chandrabindus one above the other over virama before following "s" which is part of a conjunct consonent. Examples: (&& is two chandrabindus over virama, & is one chandrabindu over virama) "sadanamayuddiva&& stabhAnAntarikSaM", "ya&& svaghiti... " and " varUtha&& svAhA " but "pitRNA& sadanam...". One of the list members sent me a private posting a while ago indicating that there is both a "long" and a "short" anusvAra in recitation but indicated that this has to do with the length of the preceeding vowel. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 8 18:38:57 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 10:38:57 -0800 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066425.23782.8702150434087343280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Prof. Robert Zydenbos schrieb: > Not many, but they exist: e.g., words in which the first element is > 'kem-' ("red"), such as ken-niiru "red water, blood", ken-nettar "red > blood", ken-naalige "red tongue". Perhaps, the above examples are problematic to decide the source of kannaDa to be from kammi- (fragrance). Parallel examples from tamil: 1) cem + nIr = cennIr (red water, blood) 2) cem + nAy = cennAy (red dog) 3) cem + naNTu = cennaNTu (red crab) 4) cem + taNal = centaNal (red fire) ... Any examples where -amn- (or -amVn-) in any position of a Kannada word going to -ann-? Thanks, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Jan 8 11:40:32 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 11:40:32 +0000 Subject: Airyanam Vaejah near Kazakhstan? Message-ID: <161227066412.23782.647633756100944770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan wrote: I am glad you found the little I wrote of help. > What are your views about the main subject of my message? I would like very > much to hear. I am not in a position to help you as my main field of expertise, for what it's worth, is Buddhology. I think there are others on the list much more qualified to speak on IA comparative linguistics -- I just happen to have an old interest in Egyptian matters dating from my early days before I got seduced by things further east. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET Mon Jan 8 07:32:24 2001 From: kurundwadsenior at WMINET.NET (Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 12:32:24 +0500 Subject: Airyanam Vaejah near Kazakhstan? In-Reply-To: <00e201c0790a$4145c820$ba2c893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227066409.23782.300313491721593076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen (pardon my addressing you rather familiarly thus!) Thank you for the comment about a proposed relationship between the Sanskrit "MATI", the Avestan "HUMATA" and the Egyptian "MA'AT". It was most enlightening, to say the very least. What are your views about the main subject of my message? I would like very much to hear. Thank you again Regards BCP At 00:30 1/8/2001 -0000, Stephen Hodge wrote: >Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan wrote: > >> One wonders, therefore, whether "Ma'at" isn't the same as the >Sanskrit 'Mati' >> or the Zoroastrian 'Humata'? > >This is dubious, I think. For one thing the vocalization of Egyptian >words is merely a convention as they were not indicated in >hieroglyphic script so nobody knows whether "ma'at" was really >pronounced thus.. Also etymologically, the word "ma'at" is a feminine >noun (-t ending) derived from the verb " m*' "-- "be proper, be true". >I do not know what the conventions for plain text representation of >Egyptian sounds is, but here my "*" is a glotteral stop and " ' " (as >in yr ma'at) is the consonantal 'ayin gutteral -- i.e the latter is >not just a little apostrophe that happnes to get in the way. Thus >"m*' " is a tripartite root which is attested as far back as the >Pyramid Texts. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > > Bhalchandrarao C Patwardhan Kurundwad House 10A Mangaldas Road Pune - 411 001 India ================================================ "Until the Lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter" - (Attributed to a Black African Leader) =========================================================== From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Jan 8 13:33:12 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 14:33:12 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066414.23782.1229963588702761565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Sam, 30 Dez 2000 schrieb N. Ganesan: > Both the words, Karnataka and KannaDa go back to the > same roots in Dravidian, and they are not from any > other langauge root as far as I can see. I would > very much appreciate and request Kannada scholars like > Prof. Vasundara Filliozat, Dr. Harihareshvara > and Prof. R. Zydenbos on this list to explain > how the words, KannaDa and Karnataka are explained > in KannaDa sources. [...] > karnATaka/kannAD can be explained in two ways: > a) "kalnAD" = boulder country, part of Deccan, > also, 'malEnAD' in Hassan area. > or > b) "karunAD" = country of black earth, > Usually black earth signifies fertility > and hence praised. > I seek guidance from KannaDa experts as to > whether a) or b) is correct. The etymology of "Kannada" is unclear. According to R. Narasimhacharya in his _History of the Kannada Language_, it was H. Gundert (of the famous Malayalam dictionary) who first suggested kar-naa.du "the black country", and Caldwell apparently saw no better explanation. But Narasimhacharya writes that "the Kannadigas themselves are not likely to designate their language 'the black country language'" (which I agree with, since most of the land is not black). Others have suggested karu-naa.du "the elevated country". N.'s own suggestion is that 'Kannada' derives from kammitu-naa.du, "land of fragrance", analogous to the meanings of sweetness and pleasantness given to 'Telugu' and 'Tamil', and referring to lotus ponds and the sandalwood that grows in Karnataka. I think that N.'s explanation does not look bad, esp. since there is also a word 'kammu' meaning "fragrance" (with derivatives like kammida.l, 'a fragrant woman', etc.), so the land could have been kam-naa.du, from which 'Kannada' as name of the language is derived. ('Kar.naa.ta' etc. look very much like Sanskritisations.) Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Jan 8 18:04:03 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 18:04:03 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066421.23782.6703409731435558451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 8 Jan 2001, um 6:15 schrieb Swaminathan Madhuresan: > CilappatikAram (5th cent. ?) has karunaTar, and > later texts has the country name as kan2n2a- in tamil texts. "karuna.tar" is a variation I have not yet seen! But the Sanskritised "kar.naa.ta" seems to have existed already before then, and the question arises from which source the Cilappatikaaram word has come. > Do we have other examples where -mn- become -nn- in Kannada? > as in kam-nADu to kannADu. Not many, but they exist: e.g., words in which the first element is 'kem-' ("red"), such as ken-niiru "red water, blood", ken-nettar "red blood", ken-naalige "red tongue". In Kannada the treatment of the final nasal in such short units of meaning in general seems somewhat flexible, and this also shows in Old Kannada orthography: e.g., an anusvaara at the end of a word may stand for an n or m, cf. e.g. Old Kannada manu.sya.m = Modern Kannada manu.syanu (the modern language demands a euphonic 'u' at the end, because final consonants are no longer tolerated), and then the anusvaara turns into n, as we also see in the accusative: OKa manu.syana.m (note the n) = ModKa manu.syanannu. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 8 18:13:03 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 01 18:13:03 +0000 Subject: Commonness of Indian syntax Message-ID: <161227066423.23782.16440478661233205770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >plse look up my post in Indology in which I had sent the url of an >interview with D Shulman. Plse review his comments on >the obsession with etymologies in the South Indian >context. I fully subscribe to his views. David Shulman works mostly on 17-18th century texts nowadays. He never worked on Classical Tamil texts, and his interests is premodern South India. He did/does *not* work in anything concerning ancient India at all. (I too admire his writings, and on many occasions Shulman has asked me some info on old tamil books, he has promised to write a book on Kamban someday. ) Because Shulman does not study ancient texts in detail, he etymologizes wrongly using late purANic material. aalavaay, nelvaay, etc., are common village names in TN and Kerala. See Dr. Palaniappan's post: <<< Alavay is a compound made up of Alam and vAy where Ta. Alam means banyan tree and Ta. vAy should be interpreted as "place". Thus AlavAy means "the banyan tree place" in much the same way "alaivAy" (aka.266.20) refers to "place of waves". Originally it seems to have meant only a location inside Madurai and not the whole of Madurai. What is the significance of the banyan tree place? That is where dakSiNAmUrti is located along with his disciples. The importance of dakSiNAmUrti cult in the mythology/history of Madurai, Potiyil, Agastya, and Tamil grammatical, literary, and aesthetic traditions has not been fully recognized by scholars till now. [In another mail] > The AlavAy myth > as the snake encircling Madurai, a fine analysis in > D. Shulman, Tamil temple myths, 1980; On the contrary, David Shulman and following him William Harman have simply missed the mark in understanding the true history of the name AlavAy. William Harman (Sacred Marriage of a Wedding Goddess, p. 39) says, "Shulman (1980, 125) theorizes that this etymology may accurately reflect the ancient origins of the association of Madurai with a serpent, and that ziva's role came later. Specifically, he presents the possibility that before ziva's explicit association with the snake of Madurai, there may have been a temple dedicated to a snake in that city. The four early temples associated with Madurai were those to the virgin (kan2n2i), viSNu (kariyamAl), kALi, and the Serpent (AlavAy). Given ziva's frequent association with serpentine symbolism, it would have been a simple matter to identify a temple dedicated to a serpent with ziva, the hypothetical latecomer of the group of four." [...] S. Palaniappan >>> These are the words of Shulman on Indian syntax referred by LS: << In addition, however, there is a certain common basis for all of the Indian languages. The division that we use, as Indo-Aryan or Indo-European and Dravidian languages, may have some historical and typological relevance but it is not close to the reality of the actual Indian linguistic experience. For example, if you typologise not on the basis of etymology but on the basis of syntax then in all Indian languages you find a common syntactical field. If you read medieval Sanskrit with the awareness of at least one Indian mother language, you will find the similarity. We have been blinded by one sort of typological difference and so we have become insensitive to the underlying common nature of the Indian linguistic zone. It depends on where you are rooted . I feel I belong to this area, specifically, to Mylapore. >> Many linguists have written about the large Dravidian substratum in Sanskrit, due to Aryan ingressions people switched language to IA. One of the main arguments is the IA Syntax influenced by Dravidian. Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti in June 98 << [...] I am not a Sanskritist or a IE-ist. Such a transformation of Skt phonological system is possible only under a contact situtaion. And retroflexion is one of the so many other features of Middle Indic both in phonology, morphology and syntax that look to a Dravidian source. A phonlogical rule shared by both IA and Drav is the emergence of the favourite syllable type (C)V:C or (C)VCC to the elimination of *(C)V:CC. H.Hock's argument that both IA and Drav developed retroflexes on parallel lines is not defensible, because Dravidian had both *_t and *.t basically in a large no of morphmes. >> Also, see that Telugu did not borrow syntax from Sanskrit: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9605&L=indology&P=R6701 >Yes, I do sometimes react to posts on etymologies. >Especially when I find something far more obvious ... >as in the case of a suggested etymology yamuna < >tozunai etc The above Linguists' statements on Syntax etc. make seeking the roots of North Indian words from Dravidian legitimate. Also, the Indus culture has been shown to be non-Aryan conclusively, and Indian and foreign scholars have published books/articles that the high IVC language was Dravidian. If Drav. cOLam/jOLa > Hindi jvAr > yavanala, I suggest to_luna > *yavuna > yamuna. t-/c- example: tOkai=cOkai=peacock feather. yuavuna/yamuna like draviDa/dramiDa. -m- in yamuna was chosen because of the twin river history where yamuna got most waters which flowed in the now dried up Sarasvati. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 9 09:17:13 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 09:17:13 +0000 Subject: Yogacara idealism Message-ID: <161227066428.23782.8271174750444473950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya wrote: >--> As i understand, if you wish to work with pramanas you have to admit the >independent existence of external objects (or else you have to change your >defn. of the pramanas, as Dignaga in fact does). If you insist that >ideas-and ideas alone- are real, and still wish to work with pramanas, then >you do have a problem. How so? Do expand upon the following terms - "independence", "existence", "externality", "object-ness"; and then upon the phrase "independent existence of external objects". In what sense does one who talks of the pramaa.nas have to accept it? How would you disprove the statement that it is only an idea, to think that external objects exist independently? Or do you mean to say that only the naivest of naive realists can work with pramaa.nas? The merest gandha-maatra of idealism would close the door to pramaa.nas, wouldn't it? Vidyasankar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 9 18:16:38 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 10:16:38 -0800 Subject: Karwe in Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227066439.23782.3632177550337704518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the Marathi Karve from Sanskrit 'karma'? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 9 18:49:27 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 10:49:27 -0800 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066445.23782.14461878039710154728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > What also occurs to me in this connection is the example of ta.n + > niir giving ta.n.niir ("cool water", as in Tamil), where we see the 'n' > being assimilated to the '.n', while on the other hand we also have > the word tampu as an alternative (and the standard modern word) > for ta.npu "coolness", where we see assimilation in the opposite > direction: the '.n' becomes labialised. In Tamil?? taNpu never becomes tambu. tambu, the standard modern word, means "younger brother". tampi/tampu is from "tan2" 'one's own' and *not* from taN- 'cool'. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 9 17:57:22 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 12:57:22 -0500 Subject: Karwe in Maharashtra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066435.23782.17681879194713618860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Karve" or "Karwe" is a family name among Brahmins of Maharashtra. The name is attested at least as far back as the Peshwa period. Members of this family were family priests for the Peshwas. I have never seen it used as a name of a caste in Marathi. Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, N. Ganesan wrote: > Dear Listers, > > Is Karwe in Maharashtra used for a caste or only as > family names? Iravati Karwe ... > > Are Karwes Brahmins or farmers or something else say > 2-3 centuries ago? > > Thanks, > N. Ganesan > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jan 9 13:50:38 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 13:50:38 +0000 Subject: OCR for romanized Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227066431.23782.18435947076999502246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Winkler is not an INDOLOGY meber yet, so please send replies both to the list and to jakob.winkler at t-online.de Thank you -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Dear Indology List Members > I have a question regarding OCR. I want to get me a scanner and was > wondering which OCR software I need to be able to read romanised > Sanskrit. I would prefer a rather inexpensive program which is able to > recognize diacritics. The software does not to be capable to read any > Indic letters or transform Latin characters into e.g. Devanagari. > > I can be contacted at Jakob.Winkler at t-online.de > > Thank you very much. > > Jakob Winkler > > > > __________________________________________ Chris Wooff mailto:C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk Sent with Mulberry 2.0.5 From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 9 19:52:00 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 14:52:00 -0500 Subject: Karwe in Maharashtra In-Reply-To: <20010109181638.13360.qmail@web312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066448.23782.9733898412965851063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't see any connection between the Marathi family name "karve" and the Sanskrit word karma. It does not look like it is related to their ancestral home, which is the town of Muru.d in Konkan. There may be a family history, Karve-kula-v.rttaanta, which may shed light on the significance of the name. Many such family histories have been published in Maharashtra. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Is the Marathi Karve from Sanskrit 'karma'? > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 9 20:42:07 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 15:42:07 -0500 Subject: Structure of the Rudram Message-ID: <161227066453.23782.13049295714580246625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The tapes and chanting books I have of the Rudram all have the following structure: -------- TS 4.5.1 followed by: namaste astu bhagavanvizvezvarAya mahAdevAya tryambakAya tripurAntakAya trikAlAgnikAlAya kAlAgnirudrAya nIlakanThAya mRtyunjayAya sarvezvarAya sadAzivAya zrIman mahAdevAya namaH | followed by: TS 4.5.2 thru TS 4.5.11 followed by: tryAmbakaM yajAmahe sugandhim puSTivardhanaM | urvArukamiva bandhanAnmRtyormukSIya mAmRtAt | Yo rudro agnau yo apsu ya oSadhISu yo rudro vizvA bhuvanA viveza tasmai rudrAya namo astu | tamuSTuhi yaH sviSuH sudhanvA yo vizvasya kSayati bheSajasya | yakSvAmahe saumanasAya rudram namobhirdevamasuraM duvasya | ayaM me hasto bhagavAnayaM me bhagavattaraH | ayaM me vizvabheSajoya& zivAbhimarzanaH | Ye te sahasramayutaM pAzA mRtyo martyAya hantave | tAnyajnasyamAyayA sarvAnava yajAmahe | mRtyave svAhA mRtyave svAha | Om namo bhagavate rudrAya viSNave mRtyurme pAhi | prANAnAM granthirasi rudro mA vizAntakaH | tenAnnenApyAyasva | Namo rudrAya viSNave mRtyurme pAhi | followed by: TS 4.7.1 thru TS 4.7.11 followed by: iDA devahUrmanuryajnanIrbRhaspati rukthAmadAni za&siSadvizvedevaH sUktavAcaH pRthivi mAtarmA mA hi&sIrmadhu maniSye madhu janiSye madhu vakSyAmi madhu vadiSyAmi madhmatIm devebhyovAcamudyAsa& zuzrUSeNyAM manuSyebhyastaM mA devA avantu zobhAyai pitaronumadantu | ----------- 1)Can anyone give me any references in the religious literature (of any period) stating that the Rudram should be chanted in this form. I already have the reference to TS 5.7.3.3 from Gonda's article "Satarudriya" refering to "zatarudriya" (TS 4.5) and "vasor dhArA" (TS 4.7.1 thru TS 4.7.11) together. What I'm really looking for is a reference in the religious literature to the inclusion of the mantra "namaste astu bhagavanvizvezvarAya ... mahAdevAya namaH |" between TS.4.5.1 and 4.5.2 (A Hindu website I found states that this mantra is always included in the Rudram chant but gives no references or authorities), and to the inclusion of the verses I've indicated that follow TS 4.5.11 and 4.7.11. 2)The names "rudram","namakam","camakam". Can anyone give me references to these names in the literature (of any period). Or give me any other information about them such as how far back these are known etc. Gonda in his article gives a reference to the name "rudrAH" from ViSnu sMrti as refering to the zatarudriya but no reference to the use of the names "rudram","namakam" or camakam". 3)Gonda in his article states that the zatarudriya is chanted daily in zaivite temples. Would that be only TS.4.5 i.e. the zatarudriya or would it be namakam and camakam in the form I've indicated above. Also is it only the taittiriya samhita version of the Rudram that is chanted in Saivite temples today or would some Saivite temples use the versions from other samhitas. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 9 15:57:51 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 15:57:51 +0000 Subject: Karwe in Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227066433.23782.8362546550012887964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listers, Is Karwe in Maharashtra used for a caste or only as family names? Iravati Karwe ... Are Karwes Brahmins or farmers or something else say 2-3 centuries ago? Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 9 18:12:12 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 18:12:12 +0000 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066437.23782.4143006560307450805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Dec 2000 05:32:30 +0000, Narayan R.Joshi wrote: >I know >however that Kurus and Kambojas in the past did reach Shri Lanka as >attested by the presence of these name in the ancient cave inscriptions of >Lanka. Dear Mr. Joshi, My references regarding attestation of tribal/ethnic groups in ancient Sri Lanka only mention derivations (prakrit versions) of Kamboja, Maurya, Murunda, Mlecha and Dravida. I am unable to locate Kuru. Can you help please ? Raveen From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 9 18:28:48 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 18:28:48 +0000 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066441.23782.910890458968392981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For the Sri Lankan caste name, Karava, please consider the tamil name kaLamar. (More on Jaffna naLavar, Kannada kaLabaru who were ruling TN their name sanskritized as Kalabhra, karunATu 'black country' (Cf nallamalai hills in AP where nalla = black and river Krishna) ..) BTW, karaiyar 'shore folk, fisherman' is different from karavar. In Dravidian, -m-/-v- does not become -y-. Dravidian makes skt svAmi as sAmi,sAvi, sOvi, sOmi but not sAyi. Saayi happens in the North India For example in Bengal gosAyi. That's why Gowda and foll. him, Emeneau's derivation of sAyaNa from sAyi utterly fanciful. It is much easier to get it from Dravidian words. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Wed Jan 10 00:44:46 2001 From: jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (John D. Dunne) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 18:44:46 -0600 Subject: Manjushree CSX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066460.23782.18347318242905844338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. I have found a message in the archive which seems to suggest that Manjushree CSX does not in fact follow CSX coding. That is, the character locations will not correspond to the ASCII locations used for CSX fonts in Windows. Am I correct? That is, is it indeed the case that Manjushree CSX does not use the CSX character locations used by Windows TTF CSX fonts? If I am correct in this, has anyone written a conversion program/macro? I do not have the time to do so now. If I am not correct, then is there a more basic problem with cross-platform (Mac ==> PC) compatability of the Manjushree CSX font? Even using the most advanced of conversion utilities, I can find no means to preserve CSX (ascii) character locations for documents encoded in Mac word processors with the manjushree font. As you can see, I am not particularly knowledgable about Macs, although I know my way around PCs. Thanks in advance for any information. Yours, John Dunne ========================= John D. Dunne Assistant Professor Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Jan 9 18:40:46 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 19:40:46 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: <20010108183857.10845.qmail@web312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066443.23782.7812283772949816765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 8 Jan 2001, um 10:38 schrieb Swaminathan Madhuresan: > --- Prof. Robert Zydenbos schrieb: > > Not many, but they exist: e.g., words in which the first element is > > 'kem-' ("red"), such as ken-niiru "red water, blood", ken-nettar > > "red blood", ken-naalige "red tongue". > > Perhaps, the above examples are problematic to decide the source of > kannaDa to be from kammi- (fragrance). Parallel examples from tamil: > [...] > > Any examples where -amn- (or -amVn-) in any position of a Kannada word > going to -ann-? I cannot think of any right now. But why should we consider all this 'problematic'? Do your Tamil examples not confirm the suggestion? What also occurs to me in this connection is the example of ta.n + niir giving ta.n.niir ("cool water", as in Tamil), where we see the 'n' being assimilated to the '.n', while on the other hand we also have the word tampu as an alternative (and the standard modern word) for ta.npu "coolness", where we see assimilation in the opposite direction: the '.n' becomes labialised. The quality of the final nasal in such short syllables seems to have been of lesser importance than its nasality. And in any case, 'Kanna.da' remains an odd word. All the proposed explanations assume that the second part is derived from naa.du: but why should the aa have been shortened? Perhaps we should not expect proper nouns to be exemplary for phonetic rules. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Tue Jan 9 20:22:14 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 20:22:14 +0000 Subject: Accents in word nirukta Message-ID: <161227066451.23782.4265089222320901712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists! Does the word "nirukta" occur with different accent? Say, are there examples of accent on nir- -ruk- -ta ? Best regards, Dmitri. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Jan 10 02:39:25 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 21:39:25 -0500 Subject: Manjushree CSX In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010109183049.009801d0@facstaff.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227066462.23782.16507591168980984896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As the creator of Manjushree CSX, I can say that its Windows version pretty much follows the ascii locations used in CSX fonts, with one or to minor differences, which I cannot recollect at this point. I believe ascii 160 could not be shown in MS Word and the character assigned to it had to be assigned to a different ascii code. The Mac version of Manjushree CSX is somewhat different from the Windows version in that it also makes use of the so-called upper ascii numbers, i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 15, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 and 29. These codes can be use for characters on MS Word on Mac, but not on Windows. The Mac version of Manjushree CSX uses these codes for showing vowels with combinations of accents, length, and nasality. These are useful for special purposes, but are not included in the old standard CSX coding. I have used these for some of my publications on Panini and the Pratisakhyas. I hope this explains the nature of this font. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 9 Jan 2001, John D. Dunne wrote: > Greetings. > > I have found a message in the archive which seems to suggest that > Manjushree CSX does not in fact follow CSX coding. That is, the character > locations will not correspond to the ASCII locations used for CSX fonts in > Windows. > > Am I correct? That is, is it indeed the case that Manjushree CSX does not > use the CSX character locations used by Windows TTF CSX fonts? > > If I am correct in this, has anyone written a conversion program/macro? I > do not have the time to do so now. > > If I am not correct, then is there a more basic problem with cross-platform > (Mac ==> PC) compatability of the Manjushree CSX font? Even using the most > advanced of conversion utilities, I can find no means to preserve CSX > (ascii) character locations for documents encoded in Mac word processors > with the manjushree font. > > As you can see, I am not particularly knowledgable about Macs, although I > know my way around PCs. > > Thanks in advance for any information. > > Yours, > > John Dunne > > > ========================= > John D. Dunne > Assistant Professor > Languages and Cultures of Asia > University of Wisconsin-Madison > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 9 22:06:30 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 22:06:30 +0000 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066455.23782.4392492579412507147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dravidian makes skt svAmi as sAmi,sAvi, sOvi, sOmi but not sAyi. Saayi >happens in the North India For example in Bengal gosAyi. > >That's why Gowda and foll. him, Emeneau's derivation of sAyaNa from sAyi >utterly fanciful. It is much easier to get it from Dravidian words. The linguistic landscape of northern Karnataka and southern Maharashtra is noticeably different from that of southern Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. Perhaps it was so even in the 13th century. Besides, the Sena dynasty ruling in Bengal (12th c.) is said to have been of Karnata origin. From where in Karnata? Is it possible that svaami -> saayi is a southern influence in Bengali, but only a feature of central Dravidian languages? Or is svaami -> saayi a Bengali influence on the languages of the Deccan plateau? Given documented historical interactions between Bengal and central India, extending into the Deccan, careful analysis of central Dravidian languages and eastern Prakrits is required. Southern Dravidian may not have all the answers to all such questions. Another possibility - was Saaya.na's family a relatively recent immigrant from the north? Between the 9th and 13th centuries, many Brahmin families seem to have newly arrived in the south. There are even people surnamed Mizra, in Tamil country proper. Thus, Zrivatsaanka Mizra (Kuuranaaraaya.na) of Vizi.staadvaita tradition and Jnaanottama Mizra (author of Candrikaa, comm. on Surezvara's Nai.skarmyasiddhi) of Advaita tradition. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 9 23:32:07 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 01 23:32:07 +0000 Subject: Karave caste and Kurus Message-ID: <161227066458.23782.10991567372514304314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:28:48 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >For the Sri Lankan caste name, Karava, please consider >the tamil name kaLamar. (More on Jaffna naLavar, >Kannada kaLabaru who were ruling TN their name >sanskritized as Kalabhra, karunATu 'black country' >(Cf nallamalai hills in AP where nalla = black >and river Krishna) ..) > >BTW, karaiyar 'shore folk, fisherman' is different from >karavar. The equivalent Tamil caste name is Karaiyar (not Karavar, still found in TN and Jaffna), it became Karava or Karave in Sinhalese via Kaurava. (Karaiyar->Kaurava -> Karava ?) By the late 13th century in Tamil Nadu Karaiyar had Sanskritized their name to Kaurava(r). Similalrly Parathavar another fisher caste had Sanskritized its name into Bharatha(r), all alluding North Indian 'Aryan' Kshatriya ancestry. These castes always had a dominant element in them; there were not all poor fisher folks. The fish 'mudalalis' (merchants) were wily entrepreneurs who had made a lot of money in colonial period trading. When these Karaiyar found themselves in Sri Lanka (just before and after Portuguese colonial period) it was easy for them to use the Kaurava ?origin myth? to assimilate with the dominant Indo-Aryan Sinhalese. Although ?high? caste Sinhalese Buddhist prelates still will not accept these caste members into their Buddhist orders. Some of the South Indian derived Karave, Salagama (cinnamon peelers) and Durave (toddy tapers) were able to use the colonial education system to become the new Sinhala elites. Thus began their ?heavily funded? effort to Arayanize them in local books and newspapers. There are number of website dedicated to this caste myth. For your reference try Nobodies to Somebodies - The Rise of the Colonial Bourgeoisie in Sri Lanka' by Kumari Jayawardena, 2000, Social Scientists' Association and Sanjiva Books. ISBN 955-9102-26-5. Caste Conflict and Elite Formation, The Rise of the Karava Elite in Sri Lanka 1500 - 1931. Michael Roberts 1982, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. ISBN 81-7013-139-1 Social Change in Nineteenth Century Ceylon. Patrick Peebles. 1995, Navrang ISBN 81-7013-141-3. Following is a book written due to the ?heavy? funding of the Karava elites :-) But it is useful in understanding the caste myth. The Karava of Ceylon - Society and Culture' M. D. Raghavan, Emeritus Ethnologist, National Museums of Ceylon, K. V. G. de Silva 1961 . For Tamil Nalavar of Sri Lanka it most probably have to be derived from Sinhala Nahalava. They are the reverse of the Karave, Duarve and Salagama. They are Sinhalese who have become Tamils over a period of time. Raveen > In Dravidian, -m-/-v- does not become -y-. >Dravidian makes skt svAmi as sAmi,sAvi, sOvi, sOmi >but not sAyi. Saayi happens in the North India >For example in Bengal gosAyi. > >That's why Gowda and foll. him, Emeneau's derivation >of sAyaNa from sAyi utterly fanciful. It is much easier >to get it from Dravidian words. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Jan 10 11:16:07 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 06:16:07 -0500 Subject: Manjushree CSX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066473.23782.16141628851586922628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar makes a good point. I have successfully read with my Mac version of Manjushree CSX the Sanskrit texts created by Professor Tokunaga. The same can be read with the Windows version of Manjushree CSX. However, I have not tried to read texts created with Mac Manjushree CSX with any Windows based CSX fonts. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >If I am not correct, then is there a more basic problem with cross-platform > >(Mac ==> PC) compatability of the Manjushree CSX font? Even using the most > >advanced of conversion utilities, I can find no means to preserve CSX > >(ascii) character locations for documents encoded in Mac word processors > >with the manjushree font. > > It seems to be a Mac non-compatibility issue. I have encountered > it when going across platforms happens with John Smith's Times > CSX+ fonts too. There are Mac and PC fonts, but text encoded > on a Mac will not get mapped properly when viewed on PCs, and > vice versa. The problem seems to lie with the fact that the Mac > systems assign the characters to non-standard locations. I don't > know if the newer Mac OS's take care of this. > > The only solution lies in a utility that takes text encoded on > one type of machine and goes through a reassigning process for > the other. If well written, such a thing should work for every > font that strictly follows the CSX standards, irrespective of > who developed the font. I haven't found any such thing yet. > > Best, > Vidyasankar > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 10 07:27:14 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 07:27:14 +0000 Subject: Manjushree CSX Message-ID: <161227066466.23782.1933669820465363947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >If I am not correct, then is there a more basic problem with cross-platform >(Mac ==> PC) compatability of the Manjushree CSX font? Even using the most >advanced of conversion utilities, I can find no means to preserve CSX >(ascii) character locations for documents encoded in Mac word processors >with the manjushree font. It seems to be a Mac non-compatibility issue. I have encountered it when going across platforms happens with John Smith's Times CSX+ fonts too. There are Mac and PC fonts, but text encoded on a Mac will not get mapped properly when viewed on PCs, and vice versa. The problem seems to lie with the fact that the Mac systems assign the characters to non-standard locations. I don't know if the newer Mac OS's take care of this. The only solution lies in a utility that takes text encoded on one type of machine and goes through a reassigning process for the other. If well written, such a thing should work for every font that strictly follows the CSX standards, irrespective of who developed the font. I haven't found any such thing yet. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Wed Jan 10 09:50:15 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 10:50:15 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: <20010109184927.14467.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066469.23782.9540683604270110805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Die, 09 Jan 2001 schrieben Sie: > --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > > What also occurs to me in this connection is the example of ta.n + > > niir giving ta.n.niir ("cool water", as in Tamil), where we see the 'n' > > being assimilated to the '.n', while on the other hand we also have > > the word tampu as an alternative (and the standard modern word) > > for ta.npu "coolness", where we see assimilation in the opposite > > direction: the '.n' becomes labialised. > > In Tamil?? taNpu never becomes tambu. > tambu, the standard modern word, means "younger brother". > tampi/tampu is from "tan2" 'one's own' and *not* from taN- 'cool'. Sorry, there is a misunderstanding here: everything in my paragraph is not Tamil, but Kannada (cf. that I wrote "ta.n.niir _as_ in Tamil"). ta.npu for "coolness" is never used in modern Kannada: it is always tampu. (In case anyone wonders: Tamil tambi 'younger brother' is Kannada tamma.) -- Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 10 10:56:25 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 10:56:25 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066471.23782.3265448423047826587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >ta.npu for "coolness" is never used in modern Kannada: it is always >tampu. Do we have a Kannada example in the reverse direction? Ie., Xam + nY ---> XannY where X & Y are Kannada strings with one or more letters. Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Jan 10 16:49:26 2001 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 11:49:26 -0500 Subject: Bengali sAyi ? Message-ID: <161227066478.23782.2016369875010322244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is no Bengali word 'gosAyi'; the proper Bengali word for Skt. gosvAmI is 'gosAi~'[the final syllable being-short i and candravindu] or in old orthography 'gosAin~'[the final syllable is the nasal of the palatal group]. Jogesh Panda __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jan 10 07:14:07 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 12:44:07 +0530 Subject: caste names/surnames Message-ID: <161227066464.23782.6611582910797508762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tendency to seek Sanskrit or scriptural origins for all names and words should be resisted.Whole vocabulary and life style have existed beyond the catchment area of texts. Even where textual origins are possible, the tendency is to seek prestige-enhancing antecedents. Surely origins of all castes and caste names cannot possibly be source of pride to their current bearers. It is however rarely if ever one comes across non-flattering etymology. Rajesh Kochhar From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 10 17:48:30 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 12:48:30 -0500 Subject: GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066484.23782.14252626692634380653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "N. Ganesan" >In Bengali, when is the name gosAyi first attested? >Approximately like 16th century?? >Today, we hear both gosvAmi and gosAi. The popular "hanumAn chAlIsA" in Hindi has the word gosAi. Regards _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 10 15:02:57 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 15:02:57 +0000 Subject: GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066475.23782.6186970969554707562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Bengali, when is the name gosAyi first attested? Approximately like 16th century?? Today, we hear both gosvAmi and gosAi. Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Wed Jan 10 17:46:55 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 18:46:55 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066481.23782.17942485888286942285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 10 Jan 2001, um 10:56 schrieb N. Ganesan: > >ta.npu for "coolness" is never used in modern Kannada: it is always > >tampu. > > Do we have a Kannada example in the reverse direction? > Ie., Xam + nY ---> XannY where X & Y are Kannada strings > with one or more letters. I cannot think of any example right now; on the other hand, I do not know whether we should consider the difference e / a important here. RZ From Jakob.Winkler at T-ONLINE.DE Wed Jan 10 18:46:32 2001 From: Jakob.Winkler at T-ONLINE.DE (Jakob Winkler) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 01 19:46:32 +0100 Subject: OCR for reading diacritics Message-ID: <161227066486.23782.2971972603776584243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: OCR for reading diacritics Dear Indology List Members I have a question regarding OCR. I want to get me a scanner and was wondering which OCR software I need to be able to read romanised Sanskrit. I would prefer a rather inexpensive program which is able to recognize diacritics. The software does not to be capable to read any Indic letters or transform Latin characters into e.g. Devanagari. I can be contacted at Jakob.Winkler at t-online.de Thank you very much. Jakob Winkler From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Thu Jan 11 00:46:02 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 00:46:02 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit, Dravidian, Prakrit (Re: GosvAmi) Message-ID: <161227066488.23782.8424718869604188545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there a - well-recognized procedure one can use to identify if a word is from Sanskrit or Dravidian? - Is there somewhere a rigorously analyzed list of words (used in Sanskrit and/or North Indian languages) that have been shown to be derived from Dravidian (like kalaa etc. )? I have specially been interested in finding Hindi words of Dravidian origin. In cases, when a word is derived from Prakrit (or Apabhramsha), it can be harder to trace its origin. Many words in South India must have come from Prakrits, rather than from Sanskrit directly. The name "Kannan" in Tamilnadu, is from Prakrit KaNha, as is "Kanhaiya" in North India. Yashwant From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 11 01:03:48 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 01:03:48 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066490.23782.4079081545814218036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Do we have a Kannada example in the reverse direction? >>Ie., Xam + nY ---> XannY where X & Y are Kannada strings >>with one or more letters. Dr. Zydenbos: >I cannot think of any example right now; on the other hand, I do not >know whether we should consider the difference e / a important >here. At least in Tamil, it is very important. -run- where n is dental assimilates to -n2n2- where n2 is alveolar. Eg., karunATu > kan2n2ATu if we apply Tamil sandhi. But there are no examples for -amn- becoming -ann- as far I know in Tamil. Probably none exist in Kannada as well (but I'd like to be shown an example of -amn- > -amm-. (I can understand .n "softening" to m, but the reverse is not possible in tamil, ie., m > _n or .n does not happen.) Until another example with an -amn > -ann exists, kannADu from kammitu- 'fragrance' remains doubtful (at least to me). Cf. Even though Tamil poets sang for millennia that tamil = 'sweetness', nobody accepts that's the origin of the name of the said language. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 11 17:15:49 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 09:15:49 -0800 Subject: GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066504.23782.4856582719281821122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "N. Ganesan" >In Bengali, when is the name gosAyi first attested? >Approximately like 16th century?? >Today, we hear both gosvAmi and gosAi. Bhadraiah Mallampalli chimed in: <> Are we talking here bull, literally? It has been said that Indians tend to retrace everything to their particular background. Or was someone not implying a Tamil origin? Never mind. AC Bhaktivedanta in his multi-volume _CC_ trans. with commentary gives an admirable exegesis on gosvami. But then you can bet it is slanted to his own particular party. Books tell us that go-swami is Sanskrit for "Cow-Master", a honorific term for a holy man, or denoting the Supreme Being; another version is "gosain". It's one of countless terms that contain go- (which is the origin of English cow and German Kuh, you know that). "Go-dhuli" (cow-dusting) is Hindi for dusk, i.e. "when the cows go home and raise a lot of dust"; Go-pal = Cow-keeper, also Krishna Go-dan = the gift of a cow (to a Brahmin) Go-dhan = wealth in cattle Go-kul = a herd (literally clan) of cattle, etc. There was even a measure of distance called go or gau (short for go-ruta = "cow-call"), which was supposed to denote the distance that a cow's mooing could be heard. Depending on era and place (India, Sri Lanka, Nepal), a go was 2 1/4 to 10 miles; an exaggeration? of data migration? VT [Concerning something else: I also find it odd that I don't even own a camera after so many episodes.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 11 17:40:10 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 09:40:10 -0800 Subject: GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066507.23782.6209188646767037792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > "Go-dhuli" (cow-dusting) is Hindi for dusk, i.e. "when > the cows go home and raise a lot of dust"; On dhUli, linguists connect it to tamil tukaL/tUL Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Jan 11 12:08:53 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 13:08:53 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066493.23782.153590301232925414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 11 Jan 2001, um 1:03 schrieb N. Ganesan: > >I cannot think of any example right now; on the other hand, I do not > >know whether we should consider the difference e / a important > >here. > > At least in Tamil, it is very important. Do you know an example? Because what you mention is the following concerns something else - > -run- where n is dental assimilates to > -n2n2- where n2 is alveolar. Eg., karunATu > kan2n2ATu > if we apply Tamil sandhi. One question to be considered is whether Tamil sandhi should be applied to Kannada. :-) Kannada (where a distinction between n and n2 is nowhere recorded, unlike in Tamil) goes further in consonant assimilation in compounds, as we can see, e.g., in words in which the first element is he+[consonant], meaning 'large'. (The Kannada adjective hiriya is the cognate of Tamil periya; hiridu < OKa piridu 'what is large / old / great / senior'.) The r is obviously lexically important, as we can see in older literature: per-maram 'large tree', but later it becomes hem-mara; cf. also heb-bera.lu 'large finger = thumb', hed-daari 'big road = highway', hej-jiga.ne 'large leech'. If the tapped r in the above examples can be assimilated to the following consonant to become just about anything (even a labial nasal, as in hemmara), then an assimilation of m > n is only to be expected. Cf. also hindu 'what is behind' (OKa pindu, cognate of Tamil pin2), which produces compounds like him-me.t.tu- 'to turn back, retreat', him-ma.di 'heel' etc. Here we see that an originally alveolar and a labial nasal can be assimilated; and from all the above examples we see that the preceding consonant is assimilated to the following. So I still believe that R. Narasimhacharya's suggestion Kannada < kam + naa.du deserves serious consideration. It may be a pity that apparently there are no other short syllables with the structure (C)Vm- that form such compounds; but I do not see any principle why the suggestion should be rejected. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Jan 11 12:24:49 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 13:24:49 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: <3A5DB065.29072.4EC355@localhost> Message-ID: <161227066497.23782.417660127495224736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction: in my previous message I had written > It may be a pity that apparently there are no other short syllables > with the structure (C)Vm- that form such compounds; this should be the structure (C)am- (I have already given examples of (C)em-). RZ From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 11 14:38:19 2001 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 20:08:19 +0530 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066499.23782.10196930290569032022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:03 AM 1/11/01 +0000, you wrote: >Until another example with an -amn > -ann exists, kannADu from >kammitu- 'fragrance' remains doubtful (at least to me). >Cf. Even though Tamil poets sang for millennia that >tamil = 'sweetness', nobody accepts that's the origin of >the name of the said language. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan I do not think the meanings of "sweetness" and "fragrance" are the primary ones. They could be secondary derived ones through usage. To derive the word "Tamil" or "kannaDa" through these meanings may not lead us anywhere except to pamper the respective speakers. If these languages are naturally evolved and not synthetic ones, then such etymologies do not give credit to the respective speakers. Looking at the geography of karnAtakA (large plateau with small hills and raised places) and through early Tamil references, the derivation kal+nAdu = kan2n2du > kan2n2Da has more plausibility. After all kal originally meant precisely small hills. With regards, RM.Krishnan From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jan 11 15:07:14 2001 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 20:37:14 +0530 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) In-Reply-To: <3A5DB065.29072.4EC355@localhost> Message-ID: <161227066502.23782.8937084398975484775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 01:08 PM 1/11/01 +0100, you wrote: >One question to be considered is whether Tamil sandhi should be >applied to Kannada. :-) Kannada (where a distinction between n >and n2 is nowhere recorded, unlike in Tamil) goes further in >consonant assimilation in compounds, as we can see, e.g., in >words in which the first element is he+[consonant], meaning 'large'. >(The Kannada adjective hiriya is the cognate of Tamil periya; hiridu >< OKa piridu 'what is large / old / great / senior'.) The r is obviously >lexically important, as we can see in older literature: per-maram >'large tree', but later it becomes hem-mara; cf. also heb-bera.lu >'large finger = thumb', hed-daari 'big road = highway', hej-jiga.ne >'large leech'. > >If the tapped r in the above examples can be assimilated to the >following consonant to become just about anything (even a labial >nasal, as in hemmara), then an assimilation of m > n is only to be >expected. An assimilarion similar to 'hemmara' is there in Tamil too. peru+mAn = pemmAn (meaning God, especially Siva) >Cf. also hindu 'what is behind' (OKa pindu, cognate of >Tamil pin2), which produces compounds like him-me.t.tu- 'to turn >back, retreat', him-ma.di 'heel' etc. Here we see that an originally >alveolar and a labial nasal can be assimilated; and from all the >above examples we see that the preceding consonant is >assimilated to the following. > >So I still believe that R. Narasimhacharya's suggestion Kannada < >kam + naa.du deserves serious consideration. It may be a pity that >apparently there are no other short syllables with the structure >(C)Vm- that form such compounds; but I do not see any principle >why the suggestion should be rejected. > > > >Robert Zydenbos >Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik >Universit?t M?nchen From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 12 02:43:43 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 21:43:43 -0500 Subject: Once again: Double anunasika in Taittiriya Samhita Message-ID: <161227066511.23782.7489123799038356519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I just asked a question on the list about what appears to be a symbol for a "double anunasika" in the Taittirya Samhita. I.e. in the text at some places where one would expect "anunAsika" there occurs two chandrabindus one above the other over virama (instead of a single chandrabindu over virama). The observation has been sent to me that this "double chandrabindu" symbol only but not always occurs before sibilants or h followed by a consonent; but only occurs after a short vowel. Examples (H-K convention & = anunAsika) TS.1.2.7.1 ...dakSiNamuzannuzaMta&& syonassyona&& svA TS.1.2.9.1 ...devaissa&&skRtaM TS.1.3.4 ...yantAsi varUtha&& svAhA TS.1.3.10.1 ...puSNo ra&&ha but TS.1.1.13.2 ... ta& sa&srAvabhAgAsstheSU TS.1.1.13.3 ... yajJa& svAhA etc. Can someone tell me: a) The meaning of the "double chandrabindu" symbol. b) The rule for when it occurs instead of the normal symbol "candrabindu" for anunAsika. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 12 02:53:14 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 01 21:53:14 -0500 Subject: One more try: dIrgha svarita in Taittiriya Samhita Message-ID: <161227066514.23782.1930086862420663572.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Also one more try re: dIrgha svarita in the Taittiriya Samhita. My chanting book for the Rudram from the Taittiriya Samhita marks dIrgha svarita (with two vertical lines above the letter) but as far as I can see neither Sastri and Rangacharyas nor Satavekaras edition appear to mark "dIrgha svarita" in any special way and mark it the same way they mark normal svarita with one vertical line above the letter. Can anyone tell me: a) Do Taittiriya Samhita manuscripts distinguish dIrgha svarita. b) What is the rule for when there should be a "dIrgha svarita" instead of a regular "svarita". Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 12 01:39:20 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 01:39:20 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066509.23782.17365483006403783129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Palaniappan's essay: Bards, Priests, Washerwomen, and the Ancient Tamil Society http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/palaniappan/bards/Bards032.htm The author shows how "izicin2ar" means "smearers" formed from the verb, izicutal = 'to daub, to smear' and not low birth person. OTL: izicu-tal = to smear, plaster, spread over izuku-tal = 2. to extend, spread over; 3. to settle, as particles of dust; 4. to procrastinate, linger; to be tardy; to daub; to smear, rub over, as mortar izucutal = izukutal izukupaRai = small drum shaped like an hour-glass PuRanAn2URu 287 starts with the lines: tuTi eRiyum pulaiya eRi kOl koLLum izicin2a ... In a post CT text, ciRupaJcamUlam feeding izici2ar is mentioned, here izicin2ar is not portrayed good. pakkam paTAmai oruvaRkup pATu ARRal takkam paTAmai tavam allAt takkAr izicin2ark kEyAn2um pacittArkku UN Ittal kazi cin2am kAttal kaTan2 In the Srivaishnava shrine of aTTapuyakarap perumAL at Kanchi, Tirumangai Alvar sings of Vishnu "smeared" with sandal paste. ..mEn2i am cAntu iziciya kOlam.. (periya tirumozi). Why were Drummers in ancient Tamil called as "Smearers"? Possibly, the following information can be considered. Modern mRdangam players smear a paste of rava/flour with water on the drum membrane. M. Deshpande has given a Skt. verse: ko na yaati va"sam loke mukhe pi.n.dena puurita.h m.rdango mukhalepena karoti madhuradhvanim On one side of the m.rdangam, the 'karaNai' black clay paste has to be resmeared often with great care. See the CilappatikAram epic mentioning clay paste smeared on the percussion drums. maN kaNai muzavum vaNar kOTTu yAzum paN kan2i pATalum parantan2a orucAr. Muraja and Muralii have been suggested to be from Dravidian (DED 4076). Can I be guided here with the parallel passage from Natyashastram where drums are smeared with some pastes? The possibility of the daubing drum membranes and the izicin2an2 ('drummer') has not been realized in all these years until now. Regards, N. Ganesan Note 1: Possibly Tamil society had no Untouchability to start with. But whether leather working has anything to do with Indian Untouchalility in the later centuries, I do not know. KathAsaritsAgaram has this story on a Vii.naa gut string maker. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9704&L=indology&P=R2453 Any relations with Japanese Untouchability? http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0001&L=indology&P=R12575 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0101&L=indology&P=R3333 Note 2: The North Indian religions emphasizing extreme ascetism was higly detrimental to the music and musicians in South India. In this regard, Theravada and Jain rejection of music need to be studied in contrast with the Tamil popular bhakti movement from 6th century that swept across all India. Now Indian religion is essentially Bhakti. Buddha in Pali Vinaya forbids all monks to stop watching dances, music. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9802&L=indology&P=22843 The boy Saint JnAnasambandhar was always with his pANar bards, and in icons he is never without cymbals. The popular Tamil bhakti movement incorporated all musicians from the start, and in direct contrast to Jainism and Buddhism which eschewed music totally. Some Tevaram quotes: i) niruttar kItar iTar kaLaiyAy, (Let Shiva remove any ills happening to dancers and bards). ii) Mesemerised by music, Shiva grants boons and sword to Raava.na, iii) Homas, Vedic chants and Tamil music: antaNar vELviyum arumaRait tuzan2iyum centamizk kItamum cIrin2Al vaLartara Also, tamizOTu icaip pATal maRantaRiyEn2. For sure attainment of Heaven, the poet prescribes music. kItattai mikap pATum aTiyArkku en2Rum kETu ilA vAn2 ulakam koTutta nALO? iv) See a Tevaram which chides Jainas for not understanding music: pAzi uRai vEzam nikar pAz amaNar cUzum uTalALar uNarA Ezin2 icai yAzin2 mozi Ezai avaL vAzum iRai tAzum iTam Am kIz icai koL mEl ulakil vAz aracu cUz aracu vAza aran2ukku Aziya cilkAzi ceya Ez ulakil Uzi vaLar kAzi nakarE. Note 3: Parpola considers NArada muni with NarayaNa, kinnaram, etc. from Dravidian root, nara- 'gut string' and says has relations with the Near East. Fairservis wrote IVC seals with harp, twin drum might have been called as paaN 'bard'. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0003&L=indology&P=R7015 Any relation between India and ancient Near East in musicology? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 12 16:07:24 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 08:07:24 -0800 Subject: Re. GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066522.23782.16649446993994370230.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some interesting feedback. 1. Mr. Ganesan, regarding ?Tamil origins,? says that these types of statements are found in Tamil Sri Vaishnava literature. In fact, some acharyas ask, ?Who is man here? Only Krishna is.? **Of course, Goswami would be found in Tamil literature, because Tamil has adopted countless Sanskrit words in a country where everything?s as old as the hills. I?m sure he has deeper intent of inquiry. Yet, let me please point out that the translation of "cow-master" is given in the Oxford U.P. Hindi dictionary. Naturally, "cow-master" cannot be taken too literally ? any term including the "cow" simply denotes something exalted, holy. 2. Subhash Kak states that "cow-master" is popular but the wrong meaning, citing Yaska's _Nirukta_ [?] having the following meanings for "gauh": <> **Yes, in old paintings, the cow would sometimes be depicted as carrying the whole world in its womb. Depictions like these were even common in Siam during the Ayutthaya period. <> **Probably the same as above. Thus, the meaning to take here is "ray of light," making Gosvami "master of wisdom." But, again, the above interpretations seem a bit foot-loose to me. In a similar way that you get interpretations of the word "guru", lit. more like "heavy," to mean "from darkness" (gu) "to light" (ru) ? while others have it ?remover of darkness.? Sanskrit, being very dependent on interpretation, the very same word can be used in many different ways, depending on context; and to some minds, things have an all-too-avid tendency to get bent and stretched so far and often that they magically become whatever one wants them to be. 3. Vishal Agarwal remarks, with regard to the word Goswami and the related Gosain (prefixed to numerous saints like Tulasidasa), that it is understood traditionally in Hindi to mean "he who has mastered/controlled his senses" because the word 'go' also means 'indiriyas'. **Yes, the senses, but also the genitals. Again: translation by very liberal extension and at the same time subjective interpretation. But of course, a Goswami would certainly be credited with having his or her senses fully liberated. In general, with Indophiles, ?we? very often hyperbole, exaggerate, and claim a deeper context and meaning to things that may not be there at all. This is quite pronounced and we expose ourselves to a great deal of ridicule for it. Don?t you find India itself a very sort of "conspiracy theory" country? It?s like everything is cloaked as having some profound ulterior purpose, scheme or meaning behind it, even when there may be none. Finally, in another uniquely sub-continental vein, I have found many Indians to truly relish others taking forceful punches at their culture. Even from within. What else can account for the rapt attention that the likes of a UG Krishnamurti commands in contemporary Hindustan? Thanking my friends, VT Email this story to a friend __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 12 16:21:49 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 08:21:49 -0800 Subject: Re. GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066525.23782.5247239070910863283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is this a personal conversation between some people?? I don't remember reading this sort of thing in Indology list. --- "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > Some interesting feedback. > > 1. Mr. Ganesan, regarding ?Tamil origins,? says that > these types of statements are found in Tamil Sri > Vaishnava literature. In fact, some acharyas ask, ?Who > is man here? Only Krishna is.? > > **Of course, Goswami would be found in Tamil > literature, because Tamil has adopted countless > Sanskrit words in a country where everything?s as old > as the hills. FYI. Lot of Vaishnavism went from Tamil lands to Bengal, and not the other way around. I have not come across Goswami in early Vaishnava literature in Tamil. Do you know any instance in Tamil? I'll be interested. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 12 16:40:56 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 08:40:56 -0800 Subject: KarnATaka/KannaDa Message-ID: <161227066528.23782.10886328165853562355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But the Sanskritised "kar.naa.ta" seems to have existed already before >then, and the question arises from which source the Cilappatikaaram word >has come. Interested in the early Sanskrit attestations of KarnaaTa. What are the texts in Sanskrit that we find KarnaaTa or KannaDa or variants thereof? In any case, the CilappatikAram attestation of karunATar and possibly earlier (But what are those??) Skt. KarnATa militate against R. Narasimhacharya's fanciful etymology of KarnATaka from 'fragrance'. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 12 17:13:35 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 09:13:35 -0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227066531.23782.12491250049132097446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Is this a personal conversation between some people?? I don't remember reading this sort of thing in Indology list. >> It doesn?t matter. It?s about data flow. Who belongs to it? I beg their pardon. << Lot of Vaishnavism went from Tamil lands to Bengal, and not the other way around ... I have not come across Goswami in early Vaishnava literature in Tamil. Do you know any instance in Tamil?>> I personally don?t. Rgrds. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 12 05:13:24 2001 From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 10:43:24 +0530 Subject: Makarasankramana-Shubhachintanam Message-ID: <161227066516.23782.7707846919420305960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tilaas Tilagudiibhuuya Shakti-maadhurya-vardhanaah: / Samaveto'stu No Yatna Evam Jn~aana-vivardhane // -Shreenandah: _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 12 15:35:22 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 15:35:22 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066519.23782.15012642163235694071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Do you know an example? In Tamil, I do not know of (C)am + n- becoming (C)amm-. I believe if kam- 'fragrant' + nADu ---> kannaDa is the *ONLY* example, kannaDa formed out of 'fragrant land' may need a review. >Kannada (where a distinction between n >and n2 is nowhere recorded, unlike in Tamil) goes further in >consonant assimilation in compounds, as we can see, e.g., in >words in which the first element is he+[consonant], meaning 'large'. >(The Kannada adjective hiriya is the cognate of Tamil periya; hiridu >< OKa piridu 'what is large / old / great / senior'.) The r is obviously >lexically important, as we can see in older literature: >per-maram 'large tree', but later it becomes hem-mara; cf. also heb-bera.lu >'large finger = thumb', hed-daari 'big road = highway', hej-jiga.ne 'large >leech'. For OKa. per-maram > pemmara(hemmaara), see parallel consonant assimilation in Tamil: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4239 This again is an example with (C)e- and not with (C)a-. >Not many, but they exist: e.g., words in which the first element is >'kem-' ("red"), such as ken-niiru "red water, blood", ken-nettar >"red blood", ken-naalige "red tongue". There are many examples in Tamil: cem + nIr = cennIr 'blood, red water'. >If the tapped r in the above examples can be assimilated to the >following consonant to become just about anything (even a labial >nasal, as in hemmara), then an assimilation of m > n is only to be >expected. Yes, both in Tamil and Kannada assimilation of m > n is to be expected. But it is conditional. Ie., m > n happens ONLY if the vowel preceding m is e or i. See below. >Cf. also hindu 'what is behind' (OKa pindu, cognate of >Tamil pin2), which produces compounds like him-me.t.tu- 'to turn >back, retreat', him-ma.di 'heel' etc. Here we see that an originally >alveolar and a labial nasal can be assimilated; Again, these examples are related to what you gave before with -(C)em. Now, what is given is examples with -(C)im > -(C)in, and closely related with -(C)em > -(C)en. These assimilations are routine in Tamil as well, pin2 + tu = pintu (Cognate with Ka. pindu/hindu). Parallel Tamil examples: tEn2 'honey' + mozi = tEmmozi, tEmozi; tIm ('sweet') + mozi = tImmozi, >?From mUn2Ru 'three' we have mummai, mummalam and so on. Ka. himmaDi, Ka. himmeTTu, Ta. tImmozi, Ta. mummalam etc. are relevant and have any bearing in the formation of Kannada. What is needed is -ann- < -amn- and not -mm- examples. >and from all the >above examples we see that the preceding consonant is >assimilated to the following. >So I still believe that R. Narasimhacharya's suggestion Kannada < >kam + naa.du deserves serious consideration. R. N's suggestion kam 'fragrant' + nADu is dubious, and no other examples of this assimilation (C)amn > (C)ann exist in either Kannada or Tamil. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 13 02:11:17 2001 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 01 20:11:17 -0600 Subject: New Book On Sarasvati. Message-ID: <161227066533.23782.16379569133510133345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is good to see that more Indian scholars are now contributing to the study and understanding of Indian history. ========================================================= Announcing release of Book on Sarasvati Announcing the release, by Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi, Hon'ble Minister for Human Resources Development, Govt. of India, of the volume, SARASVATI by Dr. S. Kalyanaraman. The author and publishers would appreciate it if this message is given the widest publicity and the volume is recommended for acquisition by libraries, institutions and all readers interested in archaeo-metallurgy, environmental sciences, history, culture, religion, language and civilization studies. All sale proceeds will go to a non-profit trust devoted to historical and cultural studies. Available from Amazon.com online booksellers. ISBN 81-901126-0-0 Publisher: Babasaheb (Umakanta Keshav) Apte Smarak Samiti, Bangalore. Price: US $150 (All countries other than India) Format: Hardcover Number of Pages: 1150 Number of Illustrations: 670 Subjects/Topics of Book: 1. River Sarasvati 2. Indian Civilization 3. Rigveda 4. Indus Script 5. Archaeology Synopsis: The first volume of a quintet is a comprehensive life-history of River Sarasvati. Intertwined with this life-history is the life-history of Bha_rata's (India's) ancient civilization dated to ca. 5500 Before Present (BP). The volume details the exciting discoveries related to the ancient courses of the river using satellite images and evidence provided by archaeology, epigraphic inscriptions contained on weapons, bangles, seals and tablets, ancient texts and the tradition of many parts of Bha_rata, that is India. The sections of the volume include: River Sarasvati: discovry and revival; ground-truth; culture, arts and crafts; gold, silver-smith; bronze-age Bha_rata; archaeology, language, writing system; Goddess Sarasvati; Concept of Cyclical Time; Rigveda and Linguistic Area; Bha_ratam Janam. The next four volumes will relate to: script, language, technology (including archaeo-metallurgy, Soma) and the continuing tradition of Sarasvati Civilization in Bha_rata and many other parts of the world. Review Excerpts: A paradigm shift in studies related to Ancient India. The book establishes the indigenous evolution of culture in Bha_rat, from the Vedic times and is thoroughly documented with an index and bibliography. A possible break-through in methodology to decipher the script is also indicated; the inscriptions may be lists of weapons of the bronze-age in its evolutionary stages. Author Biography: Dr. S. Kalyanaraman is a scholar in civilization studies. He has compiled a multi-lingual comparative dictionary for over25 ancient Indian languages; created a encyclopaedic website http://sarasvati.simplenet.com He has also authored the books: Public Administration in Asia (2 vols.), River Sarasvati: Legend, Myth and Reality, Indian Alchemy: Soma in the Veda (in press: Munshiram Manoharlal, Delhi) and contributed many articles in scholarly journals. Orders for copies (Price: Rs. 1000) within India: Secretary, Bharatiya Itihasa Sankalana Samiti, 528C, Shaniwar Peth, Pune 411030. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 13 08:48:47 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 00:48:47 -0800 Subject: Re. GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066536.23782.2017074077955620761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan writes: <> Yes, it would seem evident. Gau.diiya-Vai.s.nava-sampradaaya scribes its own lineage [down from Adi-Om-ville] as passing through Panca-Dravida, South India. The pivotal figure is Maadhvaacarya, no. 5 in its para-historical patriarchy. Nos. 20&21, Maadhavendra Purii and Iizvara Purii, are the seminal Bengalis of a purely historical Gau.diiya (Bengali) school. _Gaura-ga.noddeza-diipikaa_ is said to provide this run down. Important to note, however, that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu himself spent six years walking, mostly alone, throughout southern India. His most celebrated meeting was with Ramananda Raya in the Andra country, who agreed to immigrate to Caitanya?s base of operations, which was not in Bengal but in Jaganatha Puri, Orissa. After Caitanya?s six-year pilgrimage, he never left Puri, save bodysurfing sessions drifting north along the coast. pranams, VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 13 14:13:05 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 14:13:05 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066541.23782.9406205478394859413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yesterday, I wrote: >Ka. himmaDi, Ka. himmeTTu, Ta. tImmozi, Ta. mummalam >etc. are relevant and have any bearing in the formation of Kannada. >What is needed is -ann- < -amn- and not -mm- examples. Sorry for the error. This should read as: Ka. himmaDi, Ka. himmeTTu, Ta. tImmozi, Ta. mummalam etc. are not relevant and they do not have any bearing in the formation of the language name, Kannada. What is needed is -ann- < -amn- and not -mm- examples. --------------------------- RZ>I cannot think of any example right now; on the other hand, I do RZ>not know whether we should consider the difference e / a important RZ>here. We can only show Ka. and Tam. assimilation examples in -e(/i)mn- > -e(/i)nn-. But NOT with -amn- > -ann-. RZ>Do you know an example? Because what you mention is the RZ>following concerns something else - NG>> -run- where n is dental assimilates to NG>> -n2n2- where n2 is alveolar. Eg., karunATu > kan2n2ATu NG>> if we apply Tamil sandhi. This mentioned assimilation from -rn-/-run- > -nn- has direct relevance in the relation between KannaDa and KarnATaka than what is given below. >One question to be considered is whether Tamil sandhi should be >applied to Kannada. :-) The type of assimilation happens in Sanskrit as well, not just in Tamil. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R4239 >Kannada (where a distinction between n >and n2 is nowhere recorded, unlike in Tamil) goes further in >consonant assimilation in compounds, as we can see, e.g., in >words in which the first element is he+[consonant], meaning 'large'. >(The Kannada adjective hiriya is the cognate of Tamil periya; hiridu >< OKa piridu 'what is large / old / great / senior'.) The r is obviously >lexically important, as we can see in older literature: per-maram 'large >tree', but later it becomes hem-mara; cf. also heb-bera.lu 'large finger = >thumb', hed-daari 'big road = highway', hej-jiga.ne 'large leech'. Thanks for confirmation in Kannada as well. All the above have to do with assimilation from -rum-/-rm- > -mm-. Sanskrit and Tamil examples are listed in the URL above. But, these have nothing to do with -nn- in KannaDa. R. N's suggestion kam 'fragrant' + nADu is dubious, and no other examples of this assimilation (C)amn > (C)ann exist in either Kannada or Tamil. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Jan 13 15:44:12 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 15:44:12 +0000 Subject: Greetings Message-ID: <161227066543.23782.3484366841858516060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wish all "Shubha Makar SankramaNa"and Pongula". Yellabelli Tagori,Vande mAtAdrI. Tilagula ghyA ANi Goda bolA. We make efforts on this day to stick together with sweetness of GUla and oilyness of Sesame seeds.We make also efforts to further discussions where knowledge is exchanged and avoid arguments where ignorance is exchanged. We also try to discover truth in the prehistory of India instead of creating truths or fabricating multiple meaning labels. All Bharatiya BhA.sA Bhaginis are beautiful.In some parts of India today our Bhaginis decorated with Abhu.saNAs are visiting temples to exchange(VAnavasA) SaubhAgya Danam. In the same way our BhA.sA BhaginIs (from Akini to BhaginI) are loaded with SarasvatI AbharaNAs and all of us enjoy their beauty enhanced with their AlankArAs. To the best of my knowledge Sanskrit word "kalA"(phase)is related to the root "kal" (to count).KalA(moon's phase) is beautiful Sanskrit word.In the process of Sanskritization, the literal translation of the term Complex number from mathematics is presented as Ka.thiNa SankhyA. Instead the term KalAyanI SankhyA looks more appropriate. A complex number has KalA(phase) and Ayanam(amplitude).Four years ago somebody suggested Sanskritized terms Paru.sa-ganak for hardware and Mridu-ganak for software.Literal translations become funny. Concepts should be caught in new Sanskrit terms. Calculations is one function of computers. Hence the name Sanganak is also short of true concept. Computers are Ketaka (encoders-Sanketaka and decoders-Viketaka).Thanks. From ppsmb at BGL.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jan 13 10:54:02 2001 From: ppsmb at BGL.VSNL.NET.IN (ppsmb) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 16:24:02 +0530 Subject: Happy Sankranti. Message-ID: <161227066538.23782.16033921219483272362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> WISH YOU A HAPPY MAKARA-SANKRANTI. with regards, srivara. Srinivasa.Varakhedi. Asst.Prof. of Navya Nyaya. Poornaprajna Vidyapeetham. Bangalore 28. Ph: 91-80-664026. E-mail: srivara at india.com . From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Sat Jan 13 16:45:14 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 17:45:14 +0100 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066545.23782.839326532115275935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Naga Ganesan wrote: > Note 3: Parpola considers NArada muni with NarayaNa, > kinnaram, etc. from Dravidian root, nara- 'gut string' > and says has relations with the Near East. > Fairservis wrote IVC seals with harp, twin drum > might have been called as paaN 'bard'. > http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0003&L=indology&P=R7015 > Any relation between India and ancient Near East in > musicology? > As far as I know, the etymology of kinna:ru (long a), "lyre", and na:ru or na'ru or nu'a:ru, "musician" is not in any way transparent. Kinna:ru is thought to have entered Akkadian from West Semitic, I think. There is a Hurrian derivation, kinnaruhuli, "kinnaru-player", or perhaps "kinnaru-maker"? attested at Alalah in Syria. Kinnaru is attested from Old Babylonian times (eighteenth century BC) and later at Ugarit. I do no know if it is attested earlier, perhaps at Ebla? The Greek form is kinura (kinyra), with short vowels, attested as a personal name (written ki-nu-ra) already in a Linear B tablet from Pylos in Greece (thirteenth century BC). I do not see how kinna:ru can be related to na:ru, which in its turn is supposed to be associated in some way with Sumerian NAR, "musician". If the second part of kinnaru is related to Dravidian nAr, nAri, nAram etc., the first part kin- must be explained, and then a Semitic or Hurrian origin is excluded, but perhaps not a Sumerian origin? I do not believe that Sanscrit kinnara- (!) has anything to do with kinna:ru, if that has been asserted. There is a Hurrian root kinn- attested in names like Kinnari, Kinnanni, Kinnuzzi and perhaps Kinnitanni. If the word is Hurrian, the suffix -ar- is easy to explain as an iterative suffix, but one would have expected the -a- to be short. (There are lots of such Hurrian words consisting of a root plus -ari/-are.) In Hurrian kinnaruhuli, however, the -a- seems to be short; it is spelled ki-in-na-ru-hu-li. The meaning of kinn- is not known. Literature on Hurrian music: M. Duchesne-Guillemin, "Sur la restitution de la musique hourrite", in REVUE DE MUSICOLOGIE 66, 1980. About Harfe, Laute and Leier (in German), see Reallexikon der Assyriologie. Regarding the status of leather workers (called A$GAB and a$kapu), which Naga Ganesan asked me about in private correspondence, they were highly respected and in fact among the most important experts in Near East societies, since they also made parts for weapons, chariots, horses, and armour. Musicians and singers, too, were highly regarded, as they took part in all kinds of rituals. There were no "polluted" castes in Near East societies. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 13 23:09:34 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 01 23:09:34 +0000 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066548.23782.15689853266661311010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a rk from the Rg Veda (iv.25): "O Agni, O Asura, this ritual (yajna) of ours is full of cows, of sheep (aviman), of horses, of food, of offspring; may thou be always without anger being in our assembly (sabhavan), a friend, like a human being (nvrat-sakha), possessing huge wealth and vast waters." Some questions: 1. How is that Agni, who is one of the Gods in the Rg Veda, is being referred to as an "Asura" here, when we know that the term is actually used to refer to people in derogatory terms. 2. Is there any great difference between the meanings of "Asura" and "rakshasa"? 3. The word "aviman" (one full of sheep) is used here. Does this mean that the Vedic seers were raising and tending sheep at one time? 4. Who exactly were the "Asuras"? [I have heard some very interesting theories--identifying them with the Assyrians, the Persians, the Charvakas, the Indus Valley inhabitants, etc.--but would like to know the recent opinions on this matter.] 5. Is it true that the Vedic thinkers were thinking of God(s) in more human terms than is done today (calling the God(s) their friend, etc.) Thanking you, Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From Ian at GODDARD.NET Sun Jan 14 06:22:52 2001 From: Ian at GODDARD.NET (Ian Goddard) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 01:22:52 -0500 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066550.23782.1013746568920670245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://users.erols.com/igoddard/yoga.htm o---------------------------------------------o o---------------------------------------------o LOGICAL MODEL OF THE YOGA PHILOSOPHY by Ian Williams Goddard Originating in India in the 5th century AD, the system of numeration used throughout the world today has proven to facilitate extreme accuracy in the modelling of the physical universe. As we shall observe, our Hindu number system also accurately models -- and thus explains and validates as logical -- central metaphysics of the Hindu philosophy of yoga, or mystical union. BRAHMAN: CONTRADICTION OR TRUTH? The supreme truth in Hinduism is Brahman. Deities such as Shiva and Vishnu represent mere aspects of Brahman. According to Hindu scripture, "Brahman is all"[1] and yet "Brahman is without attributes."[2] Having zero attributes, Brahman is called "sunya," which is Sanskrit for void and the number zero. "Sunya: void; the Nothing which is All. Sunya Brahman: [the brahman as the Void]; Supreme Nothingness." Glossary of Sanskrit terms [3] According to scripture, Brahman contains all forms and yet is formless; is the knower, knowledge, and the known and yet is "bereft of knower, knowledge, and known."[4] How can Brahman be all and nothing? How can Brahman be and also not-be x, y, and z? This all-and-nothing paradox is the nexus of centur- ies of confusion and dispute, not only between East and West but within Eastern philosophical systems. I believe the following resolves this Hindu paradox via, appropriately enough, the Hindu number system. NUMBERS: MAPPING THE FACE OF REALITY The claim that x is equal to all and x is equal to nothing is true if, and only if, all is equal to nothing; for, if x = a and x = 0, then a = 0. But how could everything possibly be equal to nothing? Hindu scripture says that "Brahman is one" (is an undivided unity) but appears to be many due to the process of "differentiation." [5] The mathematical definition of difference is that which is obtained by subtraction.[6] The operation of subtraction is therefore both the indicated and logical model of the process by which Brahman appears to be many. "Treat the laws and relationships of integers like those of the celestial bodies." George Cantor The subtraction table models a system wherein that one system (the whole table) is populated with many attributes by the same process that Brahman is pop- ulated by many: by the process of differentiation: (fixed-pitch font required) 0 1 2 3 ____________ 0 | 0 1 2 3 | | | 1 |-1 0 1 2 | | | 2 |-2 -1 0 1 | | | 3 |-3 -2 -1 0 | -------------- Just Like Brahman THE TABLE IS ALL & NOTHING Exactly like Brahman, the whole table (as a model of a whole universe, or the All) contains all and yet is itself equal to nothing, because the sum of all differences between all differentiated numbers will always equal zero no matter how many or few numbers are differentiated. All difference = 0. ERGO: it's a mathematic fact that the sum (yoga) of all differences (Brahman) equals zero (sunya). The all-and-nothing Brahman paradox is therefore not a contradiction but is in fact logically true with respect to the nature of the identity of the All, where the All is a whole system wherein all members are derived from differentiation, which is the means by which Brahman appears to contain many and by which any identity n is defined as n (a number n is primary its difference from zero). The significance of difference lies in the fact that difference -- from zero difference, or same as, to nonzero differences -- defines the causal structure of identity, which in turn defines the fundamental nature of every thing and existence. Therefore, using the example of the zero-sum of all difference to model the supreme identity is not arbitrary, but is the exact model indicated. (The differentiation table, or identity matrix, serves as a comprehensive model of the structure of identity; a more complete analysis of this is here: http://www.erols.com/igoddard/identity.htm) MORE YOGA PUZZLES SOLVED The differentiation table explains not only how Brahman can be all and nothing, but it explains many if not all aspects of yogic philosophy such as the profoundly mystical and seemingly absurd principle of "Ajati," which declares that nothing ever exists or is ever actually created (the same is referred to in Buddhism as the "nonarising" of all apparent phenomena). The nonarising of things defines their void-like, or nonexistent, nature. As the Hindu scripture Mandukya Upanishad says: "[N]either the mind nor the objects perceived by the mind are ever born. ... That which is non-existent [0] in the beginning and in the end, is necessarily non-existent [0] in the middle. The objects we see are illusions, still they are regarded as if real." Mandukya Upanishad [7] If there is no difference, and then difference arises, yet the sum of All difference is equal to no difference(0), then in fact only nothing arises, hence the nonarising known as "Ajati." LOGICAL UNION OF ATMAN AND BRAHMAN Yoga means "union," the union of the identity of the individual, the Atman, with the iden- tity of the supreme Brahman, which is the All. As the differential matrix shows, the identity of each thing relative to itself is zero, which is the same identity as the identity of the All. The zero of self-relation defines the Absolute, or nonrelative, nature of identity expressed in the differentiation n - n = 0, which means that there is no (0) difference between n and n, and therefore n = n -- the definition of identity. So the Absolute identity of each thing (0) is the same as, and thus is united with, the Abso- lute identity of everything (0); which also ex- plains why Hindu scripture proclaims that the absolute nature of things is nonexistent (0). THE GOAL OF YOGA EQUALS ZERO (SUNYA) The goal of the practice of yoga is to condition the mind to become like zero and in so doing, to establish an identity-union between the finite self, the Atman, and the infinite All, Brahman. "Everything is 'I', and I am no thing." Ramesh Balsekar, "The Final Truth" [8] The traditional yoga lifestyle strives toward the goals of asceticism, which seeks to zero-out all desires, attachments, emotions, and ego clinging. The goal of yoga is essentially to cause the mind to become like zero. In fact, the goal of medita- tion (the central feature of the yoga lifestyle) is to zero-out thoughts, to zero-out the mind and realize the true condition of reality... zero. To know the supreme become like the supreme... zero. "He who contemplates on sunya...is absorbed into space. . . think on the Great Void un- ceasingly. The Great Void, whose beginning is void, whose middle is void, [and] whose end is void...By contemplating continually on this, one obtains success [nirvana]." The Siva Samhita [9] Buddhists agree with Hindus: "[I]t is only through the understanding of voidness that liberation from cyclic exist- ence is possible. ...Insight into voidness is therefore called 'the gateway to liberation.'" Geshe Rabten, "Echoes of Voidness" [10] IN CONCLUSION The central teachings of the philosophy of yoga amount to a logical description of the differen- tial structure of identity and the zero-sum of all differences, proving that (1) the "All" can be all and nothing (zero); (2) the arising of infinite differences cannot constitute a devia- tion from nothing (zero); and (3) the Absolute (i.e., nonrelative) identity of each individual entity, which is zero, equals the Absolute iden- tity of the All, hence their logical union (yoga). This essay demonstrates how the most radically "mystical" and heretofore inexplicable aspects of the Hindu philosophy of yoga can be logical. __________________________________________________ --- (c) 1998 Ian Williams Goddard --- - free to copy nonprofit with author attribution - -------------------------------------------------- References________________________________________ [1] "The Upanishads," translated by Eknath Easwaran. Petaluma California: Nilgiri Press, 1987, page 60. [2] "Viveka-Cudamani," by Sri Sankaracarya, trans- lated by Mohini M. Chatterji. Adyar India: The Theo- sophical Publishing House, 1932, verse 469, p. 177. [3] Glossary of Sanskrit Terms in Integral Yoga Literature: http://www.miraura.org/lit/skgl.html [4] "Thus Spake Sri Sankara," Madras India: Sri Ramakrishna Math, 1969, page 35. [5] "The Siva Samhita," translated by Srisa Chandra Vasu. New Delhi India: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1979, chapter 1, verse 67, page 10. [6] "The Penguin Dictionary of Mathematics," edited by J. Daintith & R.D. Nelson. Penguin Books, 1989, p. 95. [7] "The Mandukyopanishad." Mysore India: Sri Rama- krishna Ashram, 1974, chapter 4, verse 28, p. 31. [8] "The Final Truth, Guide To Ultimate Understanding," by Ramesh S. Balsekar. L.A.: Advaita Press, 1989, p.77. [9] "The Siva Samhita" (for details, see ref. [5]), chapter 5, verses 47, 160, and 161, pages 61 and 79. [10] "Echoes of Voidness," by Geshe Rabten, translated by Stephen Batchelor. London: Wisdom Publications, 1983, p.128. *************************************************************** VISIT Ian Williams Goddard ---> http://www.erols.com/igoddard _______________________________________________________________ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jan 14 20:42:48 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 12:42:48 -0800 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066568.23782.4503888111057644242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gunthard Mueller writes, of asuras/ahuras and devas/daeuuas in Indian and Iranian sources: > So we might have a case where the Indians and the Iranians > referred to the gods of the respective others as "demons" or > "dangerous gods". > While this would be a nice mutually supportive parallelism, > this theory is otherwise difficult to prop up. Could you expand on the difficulties that you see in supporting this theory? The evidence to me seems pretty overwhelming, especially in light of the positive views of asuras in early strata of the Rgveda. The reversal of attitudes towards the asuras in later RV hymns and the Brahmanas, when viewed in light of the *consistently* negative views of daeuuas in the Gathas, would seem to me to hold a critical clue to resolving the Zarathustra/Gathas dating problem. The probability of this increases when we note that the level of abstraction of theistic concepts in later RV 10 hymns are similar to those found in the Gathas -- and quite different from those found in older hymns in the RV family books. Taken together, these two pieces of data suggest that the Gathas date from no earlier than the latest RV strata, e.g. in mandala 10, which were presumably composed long after the Indo-Iranian language split. This gives poignancy to Jean Kellens' words (2000: 46) that "It is hardly an exaggeration to say the Old Avesta is the eleventh mandala of the Rigveda, only written in a slightly different dialect." Even early redaction principles in the texts are similar, as witnessed by the fact that the Gathas (like the RV) are organized systematically by meter and hymn length. As Kellens points out in the same place, on the average every other verse of the Gathas has an RV parallel. In any case, the demonization of the gods of bordering civilizations occurred everywhere in the premodern world, as witnessed by much evidence from the Middle East, Europe, China, and even Mesoamerica. It is difficult to believe that something else was involved in the asuras/ahuras case. The sharp reversal in attitudes towards the asuras found in late RV and later Vedic sources appears to be strong prima facie evidence of extended contact between Indian and Iranian civilizations long after their linguistic split. Considering that final redaction of the RV did not apparently occur until well into the first millennium BCE, the implications of this could run deep. I assume that there are probably strong counterarguments to these views, which I would be interested in hearing. I also assume that George Thompson might have informed opinions on this issue. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sun Jan 14 07:17:09 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 12:47:09 +0530 Subject: asura/ahura Message-ID: <161227066553.23782.5006851722434665941.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term asura in the Rv does NOT mean rakshas.Rather it has the same meaning as in Avesta ( e g Ahura Mazda).When the later meaning of Asura was introduced is a separate question.Also, the word sura formed by removing a from asura is a later -day construct. Rajesh Kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Satya Upadhya >Here is a rk from the Rg Veda (iv.25): > >"O Agni, O Asura, this ritual (yajna) of ours is full of cows, of sheep >(aviman), of horses, of food, of offspring; may thou be always without anger >being in our assembly (sabhavan), a friend, like a human being >(nvrat-sakha), possessing huge wealth and vast waters." > >Some questions: >1. How is that Agni, who is one of the Gods in the Rg Veda, is being >referred to as an "Asura" here, when we know that the term is actually used >to refer to people in derogatory terms. > >2. Is there any great difference between the meanings of "Asura" and >"rakshasa"? > >3. The word "aviman" (one full of sheep) is used here. Does this mean that >the Vedic seers were raising and tending sheep at one time? > >4. Who exactly were the "Asuras"? [I have heard some very interesting >theories--identifying them with the Assyrians, the Persians, the Charvakas, >the Indus Valley inhabitants, etc.--but would like to know the recent >opinions on this matter.] > >5. Is it true that the Vedic thinkers were thinking of God(s) in more human >terms than is done today (calling the God(s) their friend, etc.) > >Thanking you, >Satya From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jan 14 23:38:34 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 15:38:34 -0800 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066573.23782.7463710369179704965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gunthard Mueller writes: > Steve: > thanks for your interesting comments on the Gatha - Rigveda relationship. > I am not in principle against the theory of mutually aggressive nomenclatura > in the case of asura vs. daeuua, and you are perfectly right to point to the > close exchange that was probably going on between the Indian and the Iranian > cultural contexts in Rigvedic times. > But I feel that if there really was an entire cultural conflict behind this > linguistic issue, would one not assume that such a cultural conflict is > evident in more than just this particular parallel? > As I am not aware of any other such evidence, it seems to me that explaining > this development of two religious terms with a cultural conflict is like > explaining a pot hole with an earthquake. Sorry for being a bit flowery. I > do agree that that a pot hole may be caused by an earthquake, but in that > case we should find a lot more if we go digging. And it is this evidence > (which would have to be pretty massive in the case of a cultural > conflict, wouldn't you think?) which I am at least not aware of. There aren't many places you could *look* for such evidence outside the Vedas and Gathas, Gunthard. And that evidence does exist in both sets of texts -- in the case of the Vedas, even more clearly in post-RV works than in the RV's late strata. You really don't need to imagine massive cultural clashes to explain this conflict. Priestly rivalries alone could get the job done. Similar bifurcations showed up in numerous other premodern traditions without reflecting any massive cultural clashes, although they often involved some sort of geographical division. Think here of the priestly/doctrinal battles in ancient Egypt, of warrior Buddhist monks in Japan, or of the doctrinal battles marking the history of any Eurasian scholastic tradition. It is a fact that the trajectories of premodern traditions regularly diverged -- often as the result of some minor and not major historical event. Once a minor doctrinal divergence was encoded in a religious canon, path dependencies helped ensure its continuation. I suspect that in the case of the Late-RV/Old-Avestan split we have an early example of this phenomenon. Somewhat later conflicts of this sort in India can, of course, be seen in the battles between different Vedic branches or in the conflicts accompanying the emergence of Jainism and Buddhism. Despite the fuller documentation we have in these cases, we still don't understand the deep grounds of these conflicts fully. Nor could anyone easily claim that they were results of some major cultural clash. So perhaps you don't need earthquakes to explain most of the potholes in history. My best, Steve From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Jan 14 23:52:42 2001 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 15:52:42 -0800 Subject: Kumbha Mela sequence In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010114160237.01e32010@mercury.ci.uw.edu.pl> Message-ID: <161227066576.23782.11480161716279649968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:09 PM 01/14/2001 +0100, Artur Karp wrote: >It's not clear to me in what sequence the Melas take place in the four >cities (Allahabad, Hardwar, Ujjain, Nasik). Allahabad - and then? _______________ The sequence is: PrayAga (Allahabad) Nasik Ujjain HaridvAra (Hardwar) It is determined astrologically, by the position of Jupiter in the "fixed" constellations (ie. sidereal positions). PrayAga-------- Jupiter in Taurus (with Sun and Moon in Capricorn) Nasik------------ Jupiter in Leo (with Sun and Moon in Cancer) Ujjain------------ Jupiter in Scorpio (when the Sun enters Libra) Hardwar------ Jupiter in Aquarius (when the Sun enters Aries) Jupiter has a 12-year cycle, so it takes place in a different site every 3 years. See Kane, History of Dharmasastra, vol. 5, pt. 1: 287. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Jan 14 16:09:47 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 16:09:47 +0000 Subject: Ancient names of regions in Jambudveepa Message-ID: <161227066561.23782.17188324559222568948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (1)Raveen(Jan1)said he had knowledge about Kamboja,Maurya,Murunda,Mlecha and Dravida from Prakrit versions of tribal groups in ancient ShriLanka but could not find reference to Kurus.My question to Raveen and to all-what is the difference between Kurus and Kambojas? (2)I did not have any intension to relate Karave to Kurus because I have no information about the castes or JAtis from Shri LankA. I was referring to the time period between 1000 BCE to 326 BCE.In the past 2500 years of known history many many changes might have happened in the names of castes and JAtis. (3)This is also true for the names of different geographical and political regions of India. Geographically India was Jambudveepa and Lanka, Ratnadveepa or Sinhalayo.To the best of my knowledge, in the known history of 2500 years of India , there never existed liguistic states before 1950.NOw I am talking about the situation before 326 BCE. Alexanders historians knew South India by the name Tabropane (TAmraparNI-river and port name) because Indian ships from the port of TAmraparNI near Madras were bigger in size than ships from Middle-east.However Indians were not calling South India by that name because names of kingdoms all over in the ancientr India were derived from dynasty names which in turn were derived from proper names of the celebrated kings. Ishwaku, Magadha,Kosal,Anga,Vanga,Kalinga, Cola, Cher, Pandya, Shibi, Sauvira, GAndhara,Kuru, Kamboja were all propers names of kings given to their kingdoms. In the same way the ancient name of some region ofthe present Karnatak was "Kuntala Desha" after the proper name of the king "Kuntala".THere are exceptions to the rule. Also I do not say Kuntal and Kannada are related because I do not have information how the names had changed after 326 BCE. The modern languages is continuous dynamic linguistic process. I , single person, cannot study every detail of every part of India from 550 BCE to this day, Languages are changing even today.However pre-history of India to me looks very different when I find the Kerala king signing trade agreement with king Soloman(1000 BCE) in Sanskrit. Persian king Daurius called his mother tongue Arya BhA.sA. HIs order to build Suvez canal was in that language. One can rename Arya BhA.sA by different fabricated name in the way the old Periplus was suppressed and replaced by new Periplus of Erythrean seas.Fabricated labels is the trick. From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL Sun Jan 14 15:09:59 2001 From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 16:09:59 +0100 Subject: Kumbha Mela sequence Message-ID: <161227066556.23782.8305502899447374738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers, It's not clear to me in what sequence the Melas take place in the four cities (Allahabad, Hardwar, Ujjain, Nasik). Allahabad - and then? -- and then? -- and then? I would be most grateful for your advice. Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Sun Jan 14 15:37:01 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 16:37:01 +0100 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066558.23782.15308523245330100954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Satya, here are some thoughts about your questions 1 and 5. Asura is related to Avestan ahura "divine being, god", Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda (the Asura Mahaa, as it were). It seems that "divine being, god", without qualification as "good" or "bad", is the Indo-Aryan meaning. After the split-up of the Indo-Aryan framework of cultures into an Indian and an Iranian branch, the word seems to have gradually aquired a potential negative tinge in the Indian branch. One theory assumes that this might have been caused by conflicts between the Indian and Iranian cultural complexes. The fact that the Iranians used this word to refer to their gods is thought to have inspired the Indian side to consider the word to refer to enemy gods, in other words, "bad gods", or demons. The earlier Indian texts would still refer to "good Indian gods" as asuras, too, but when the conflict grew stiffer, this usage would gradually fade out in favour of "bad foreign gods", and then just "bad gods/demons" in general. Interestingly, the Iranians also had a word for "bad gods/ demons" -- it is related to the Indian word for "(good) god" (deva)... Which is derived from an Indo-European root meaning "divine being/god" which can be found in many other Indo-European branches. So we might have a case where the Indians and the Iranians referred to the gods of the respective others as "demons" or "dangerous gods". While this would be a nice mutually supportive parallelism, this theory is otherwise difficult to prop up. I am not aware of any conclusive external evidence in the textual sources to decide this matter. (I have not monitored this issue recently, so I may not be up-to-date.) This brings me to your question 5: I think one should also keep in mind that from a general Indo-European point of view divine forces have not been thought to be reliably beneficient, nor as reliably damaging, either... In the earliest Greek songs, just like in early Indian texts, the gods have to be INVOKED. By singing/praying, the god was thought to be asked to appear, very much in person. The god's power is exerted in the presence of the praying human, or it is not exerted at all. The god may even be invoked by some other human, and asked to act in favour of that other person. And that person may be an enemy! In many early texts, humans often find themselves incapable of pleasing all gods simultaneously. Their presence may be mutually exclusive. It turns out to be at the root of human suffering that humans can never be in harmony with ALL divine forces. In the early Greek epic, for example, it may not be enough to be protected by Athene. If Poseidon wants to destroy you, he might eventually be able to do it, even against Athene. The gods don't seem to have been "good" or "bad" in a pre-defined way -- they may act in your favour today, but they could also act against you tomorrow. In other words, they are gods who grant favours. But humans could do something to improve their situation. For one, there was "the Sun who sees everything and who hears everything", a formulation that is there almost identically in both Homeric Greek and Vedic. By fulfilling apparent ethical norms (in this case, not lying, not committing fraud, etc.) humans seem to be able to influence the gods in their favour. And it is, after all, possible to communicate with the god. There is a beautiful poem by Sappho in which she invokes Aphrodite and describes very precisely how she envisages the way the goddess personally arrives and talks to the singer. In this poem (7th/6th century BC), she actually quotes the goddess, who asks Sappho "What has befallen your heart again? Why do you call me again? What do you want me to do for you, you troubled soul?". These poems are very formulaic in structure, but in their best form they are exquisite expressions of a very personal (should I say bhakti-like...) relationship with the god. The gods are never thought of as "merely" human. They are always on another level, even though it is possible to communicate with them in song, in prayer, in dreams, in visions. For example, in the above-mentioned poem, Sappho very drastically describes herself as painfully love-sick, to the point of madness, but the goddess of love, smiling with her never-dying face, daughter of Zeus/Dyaus, sitting on a cheerfully painted throne, "twister of tricks", comes across as an incredibly serene, happy, extremely powerful agent who has everything totally under control, who always knows a way out, not like Sappho, who is suffering and feeling mentally confused. It is this difference that makes humans call on the gods for help. The Greek word "hieros", later meaning "holy", orginally seems to have meant just "powerful". (According to a popular theory it may be related to Vedic is.ira, such as in is.irena manasaa, which seems to be the equivalent of hieron menos in the Greek epic). So the gods were the "powerful ones". But even the human mind could be called hieros (the above example in Greek epic refers to Achilles), and in the Odyssey the word was even used once for a gigantic fish in the ocean. So while the gods, being immortal, were in a different dimension from humans, their qualities could be described with the same attributes as human qualities. And it is exactly this which makes it possible to communicate with them. They do speak Vedic and Greek, and they do smile, even if their smile appears on a never-dying face. Best wishes, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com From Schlerath at T-ONLINE.DE Sun Jan 14 16:17:26 2001 From: Schlerath at T-ONLINE.DE (B. Schlerath) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 17:17:26 +0100 Subject: AW: Some questions on Asuras In-Reply-To: <3A61C79C.33778A49@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227066563.23782.88136702389575479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning asura- some remarks: a. To explain the the post-rgvedic meaning asura- it is not necessary to assume conflicts between Indians and Iranians. - deva- and asura- are different types or aspects of gods although Varun.a, Agni, Indra and Soma are invoked mostly as deva, but also as asura. b. mazdaa is OI medhaa. Ahura Mazda is "Lord Wisdom" c. deva- means originally "the Heavenly one", "living in the heaven" Best regards Bernfried Schlerath -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]Im Auftrag von Gunthard Mueller Gesendet: Sonntag, 14. Januar 2001 16:37 An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Betreff: Re: Some questions on Asuras Dear Satya, here are some thoughts about your questions 1 and 5. Asura is related to Avestan ahura "divine being, god", Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda (the Asura Mahaa, as it were). It seems that "divine being, god", without qualification as "good" or "bad", is the Indo-Aryan meaning. After the split-up of the Indo-Aryan framework of cultures into an Indian and an Iranian branch, the word seems to have gradually aquired a potential negative tinge in the Indian branch. One theory assumes that this might have been caused by conflicts between the Indian and Iranian cultural complexes. The fact that the Iranians used this word to refer to their gods is thought to have inspired the Indian side to consider the word to refer to enemy gods, in other words, "bad gods", or demons. The earlier Indian texts would still refer to "good Indian gods" as asuras, too, but when the conflict grew stiffer, this usage would gradually fade out in favour of "bad foreign gods", and then just "bad gods/demons" in general. Interestingly, the Iranians also had a word for "bad gods/ demons" -- it is related to the Indian word for "(good) god" (deva)... Which is derived from an Indo-European root meaning "divine being/god" which can be found in many other Indo-European branches. So we might have a case where the Indians and the Iranians referred to the gods of the respective others as "demons" or "dangerous gods". While this would be a nice mutually supportive parallelism, this theory is otherwise difficult to prop up. I am not aware of any conclusive external evidence in the textual sources to decide this matter. (I have not monitored this issue recently, so I may not be up-to-date.) This brings me to your question 5: I think one should also keep in mind that from a general Indo-European point of view divine forces have not been thought to be reliably beneficient, nor as reliably damaging, either... In the earliest Greek songs, just like in early Indian texts, the gods have to be INVOKED. By singing/praying, the god was thought to be asked to appear, very much in person. The god's power is exerted in the presence of the praying human, or it is not exerted at all. The god may even be invoked by some other human, and asked to act in favour of that other person. And that person may be an enemy! In many early texts, humans often find themselves incapable of pleasing all gods simultaneously. Their presence may be mutually exclusive. It turns out to be at the root of human suffering that humans can never be in harmony with ALL divine forces. In the early Greek epic, for example, it may not be enough to be protected by Athene. If Poseidon wants to destroy you, he might eventually be able to do it, even against Athene. The gods don't seem to have been "good" or "bad" in a pre-defined way -- they may act in your favour today, but they could also act against you tomorrow. In other words, they are gods who grant favours. But humans could do something to improve their situation. For one, there was "the Sun who sees everything and who hears everything", a formulation that is there almost identically in both Homeric Greek and Vedic. By fulfilling apparent ethical norms (in this case, not lying, not committing fraud, etc.) humans seem to be able to influence the gods in their favour. And it is, after all, possible to communicate with the god. There is a beautiful poem by Sappho in which she invokes Aphrodite and describes very precisely how she envisages the way the goddess personally arrives and talks to the singer. In this poem (7th/6th century BC), she actually quotes the goddess, who asks Sappho "What has befallen your heart again? Why do you call me again? What do you want me to do for you, you troubled soul?". These poems are very formulaic in structure, but in their best form they are exquisite expressions of a very personal (should I say bhakti-like...) relationship with the god. The gods are never thought of as "merely" human. They are always on another level, even though it is possible to communicate with them in song, in prayer, in dreams, in visions. For example, in the above-mentioned poem, Sappho very drastically describes herself as painfully love-sick, to the point of madness, but the goddess of love, smiling with her never-dying face, daughter of Zeus/Dyaus, sitting on a cheerfully painted throne, "twister of tricks", comes across as an incredibly serene, happy, extremely powerful agent who has everything totally under control, who always knows a way out, not like Sappho, who is suffering and feeling mentally confused. It is this difference that makes humans call on the gods for help. The Greek word "hieros", later meaning "holy", orginally seems to have meant just "powerful". (According to a popular theory it may be related to Vedic is.ira, such as in is.irena manasaa, which seems to be the equivalent of hieron menos in the Greek epic). So the gods were the "powerful ones". But even the human mind could be called hieros (the above example in Greek epic refers to Achilles), and in the Odyssey the word was even used once for a gigantic fish in the ocean. So while the gods, being immortal, were in a different dimension from humans, their qualities could be described with the same attributes as human qualities. And it is exactly this which makes it possible to communicate with them. They do speak Vedic and Greek, and they do smile, even if their smile appears on a never-dying face. Best wishes, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sun Jan 14 22:53:40 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 17:53:40 -0500 Subject: Yogacara idealism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066566.23782.3071607310520733101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A last (I promise!) clarification on Satya Upadhya's last message on "Yogacara idealism": -->> The sahopalambha niyama argument can be framed in two different ways (as SU> i pointed out in my earlier post). You do not dispute this, so i presume u SU> agree with what i said on how the two variations of the argument can be SU> framed. Presuming that the discussion of the sn-argument is still motivated by the question that initiated it, namely whether or not YogAcAra can be considered "idealism", my contributions so far aimed to point out that the sn-argument is not the best starting-point to investigate this issue. Therefore I did not enter any detailed discussions of this particular argument up to this point, for which reasons you are not entitled to attribute to me any agreement or disagreement with your interpretations. -->> In both variations of this argument, there is a denial of the SU> independent existence of the external object. The "two versions", as you put them, are "the object has no reality apart from the idea, which means that it is the same as the idea", and "the idea and the object are experienced as identical and hence have to be admitted as identical." A literal translation of the sn-argument runs as "blue and its perception are non-different, because they are necessarily perceived together". Leaving aside the fact that there are different intepretations of the expression "non-different" (abheda) amongst DharmakIrti's commentators, note that the argument merely states that what is perceived, i.e. the phenomenal object of a perceptual cognition, and its perception are non-different. The argument does not directly address the status of external objects. The main difficulty in your above rephrasings of this argument is the ambiguity of the word "object": You read the argument as talking about external objects; in fact, it deals with phenomenal object, with percepts, images, representations - in other words, that which appears in perception. This is one reason why the sn-argument cannot be taken to directly address the existence of external objects. -->> Do you dispute the fact that the PS is the most important work of SU> Dignaga? I fail to see what this has to do with the sn-argument. -->> How do you propose to make sense out of the PS if you refuse to follow SU> the commentary of Jinendrabudhi, if his is the only commentary on the work. SU> I am not saying u need to follow him blindly, but you do have to recognize SU> his importance. The question is not "making sense" in terms of textual understanding (please note also that both PS and PST are, for the most part, extant only in Tibetan translation, which, no matter how good the translation is, always imposes limits on understanding). The question is whether or not the PST can, or should be, a somehow privileged source for understanding the sn-argument - this I would rather doubt. -->> I have taken a look at Vinitadeva's commentary, and i personally found SU> it to be illuminating in as much as we get the hint from him first that SU> Dharmakirti may be writing his book ["Nyaya Bindu"] not from the Yogacara SU> position but from the Sautantrika position. What exact subject-matter from the NyAyabindu are you talking about? If you are talking about the definition of perception, the above statement is incorrect, as VinItadeva is one of those commentators who declare the qualifier "non-erroneous" (abhrAnta) in the definition to mean "reliable"/"non-belying" (avisaMvAdakatva) precisely because the definition is to be applicable on BOTH YogAcAra and SautrAntika presuppositions. Apart from that, note that this interpretation solely applies to the definition of perception - not to the composition of the NyAyabindu as such. -->> Your argument that we ought to disregard Vinitadeva because Dharmottara SU> disagrees with him appears presumptious. This was not my argument. My argument was that you lumped VinItadeva and Dharmottara together as those commentators of DharmakIrti that we should mainly rely on. I thought this to be quite ironic, because precisely amongst these commentators, you will find much disagreement and, in fact, a huge difference in approach to writing a commentary. -->> As i have read, the Tippani is quite clear in that Dharmakirti does not SU> discuss the problem of perception from the Yogacara standpoint, and that he SU> actually assumes the position of a Sautantrika philosopher, assuming for the SU> purpose the reality of the external world. Here is a sentence from the SU> Tippani (19), as quoted by Chattopadhyaya in his book: "bahyanayena SU> Sautantrika-matanusarena acaryena laksanam krtam". As I stated above, there is a controversy amonst commentators regarding the interpretation of the qualifier "abhrAnta" in the DharmakIrtian definition of perception. VinItadeva and KamalazIla, perhaps also ZAntarakzita, interpret "abhrAnta" as "avisaMvAdaka" ("non-belying"/"reliable") in order to harmonize the definition with both YogAcAra and SautrAntika presuppositions, whereas Dharmottara interprets it "not erroneous with respect to an object-suppoert", i.e. as solely based on SautrAntika presuppositions (the Tippani merely reiterates his view). This disagreement, by the way, calls into question your sweeping generalization that "Dharmakirti includes the principle of "abhranta" in his defn. of perception and he no longer remains a Yogacara when he does that, and that is why he creates a problem for his commentators". The key issue underlying the discussion of "abhrAnta" is whether error is assumed to be due solely to conceptualization or also due to deficient sense-faculties: In the former case, perceptions like that of a double-moon which arise from damaged senses would either have to be admitted as correct or as instances of conceptual error - both approaches create further problems. In the latter case, problems arise regarding DignAga's definition of perception solely by the qualifier "devoid of conceptualization". DharmakIrti clearly advocates both sensory and conceptual error, whereas DignAga's position is - as I see it - more difficult to reconstruct. There are passages like the famous list of "pseudo-perceptions" in PS I 7cd-8ab which may indicate an acceptance solely of conceptual error, but then there are others in which sense-faculties are also mentioned as producing error. There is quite a bit of scholarly discussion on this issue (articles by Masaaki Hattori, Eli Franco, Toru Funayama), and I shall not go into further details. At any rate, commentators introduced the criterion of a harmonization with YogAcAra- and/or SautrAntika-presuppositions rather as a tool in order to justify their respective interpretations of this expression, and in order to harmonize DharmakIrti's definition with that of DignAga - the question as to whether DignAga/DharmakIrti ARE YogAcArins or SautrAntikas was not their main concern in this context. SU> At least give some names if you dispute this so strongly. (I may mention SU> that Chattopadhyaya is a highly respected scholar, so one would not expect SU> him to make such childish mistakes as you imply.) I am not interested in exegesis of Chattopadhyaya, whose work is not available to me so that I cannot pass judgment on it (from the passages you quote, it seems to me that his English terminology is simply not refined enough to capture the implications of the arguments presented by DharmakIrti etc.), but in understanding and assessing arguments by Buddhist epistemologists. Chattopadhyaya should have taken into account commentaries and texts by Devendrabuddhi, ZAkyabuddhi, ZAntarakSita and PrajJArakaragupta. See for yourself whether he did, and how. -->> As i understand, if you wish to work with pramanas you have to admit the SU> independent existence of external objects (or else you have to change your SU> defn. of the pramanas, as Dignaga in fact does). If you insist that SU> ideas-and ideas alone- are real, and still wish to work with pramanas, then SU> you do have a problem. DignAga does not provide an explicit definition of pramANas, so I would find it quite difficult to actually find a definition that he "changed". Furthermore, as you state the "problem", I think it is put in an overly crude fashion which does not do justice to problems that Buddhist epistemologists in fact had to deal with. As such, the notion of "working with pramANas" is sufficiently broad as to include representationalist, idealist, and whatever other presuppositions. The question is always what criteria are produced for (a) the production of cognitions and (b) their justification - on both issues, you can of course develop representationalist or idealist approaches. At the risk of stating the obvious: It always depends on what problems you want to solve through what approach. -->> I understand that you (and Stephen Hodge) dispute this claim that the SU> Yogarcara philosophers admit the reality of only ideas, but that is not what SU> i have read. (Already i gave u extensive quotes of Hiriyanna and SU> Chattopadhyaya for this purpose.) Would you care to comment on why there is SU> this seemingly appaling discrepancy between how scholars are viewing the SU> Yogacara? For the umpteenth time: I do not dispute the claim that YogAcAra philosophers admit the reality of only ideas. I have no opinion on this issue, because (a) the statement "admitting the reality of only ideas" is too vague, I think, to yield any philosophically interesting understanding of the issues at hand, and (b) I am not competent enough to assess the works ascribed to AsaGga, Vasubandhu, Sthiramati, DharmapAla and so forth in this respect. I merely aimed to point out that the sn-argument, and now also the dispute on "abhrAnta", are not good starting-points for looking into this question. SU> "There is thus no doubt that in his logic Dharmakirti is making statements SU> that are apparently peculiar for a strict Vijnana-vadin. He says SU> "arthakriya-samarthya-laksanatvad vastunah": a real thing ("Vastu": real SU> thing?) is that which is characterised by the capacity of producing SU> practical success. Well, if mental events alone are accepted as real, then this statement would have to be interpreted as propunding that mental events are characterized by their capacity for the fulfilment of a purpose/realization of a goal. "vastu" is merely some state of affairs that is real, it need not be a material object, or an external entity. "arthakriyA" can certainly also be interpreted on these presuppositions, so this particular statement would not strike me as peculiar for a "strict" VijJAnavAdin. SU> Dharmakirti comes out with a remarkable answer to this. "How SU> knowledge," he says, "which is the sole existing reality, can appear in the SU> form of objects, even i do not know..Just as people, under the spell of SU> magic, see pieces of mud, etc. not in their own form but in certain other SU> forms, so does knowledge appear there not in its own form but in the form of SU> objects" (NB i.14). This passage does not appear in NB, so please recheck your sources. On the whole, I have the impression that you are not reading my messages thoroughly, or if you do, that you are not taking my statements into account properly when you compose yours. Otherwise I would not have to repeat myself for so many times, and I would not encounter statements in your messages again that I had already clarified before. You also have not made use of the important contribution by John Dunne, who pointed out many revealing passages and ideas that should assist in investigating the avobe issues. Furthermore, it seems to me that your key interest lies in defending Chattopadhyaya rather than evaluating his interpretations on the background of primary sources - which are, after all, what one should mainly be interested in, unless one were to establish Chattopadhyaya as an original philosopher rather than a scholar of Indian Philosophy. I consider this a rather unhelpful approach to discussing these issues, which is unlikely to generate any further or deeper understanding - which is why I shall bow out now and consider this thread closed at least from my side. --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jan 15 02:59:28 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 18:59:28 -0800 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066582.23782.4049434582360151466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bjarte Kaldhol writes: > I can see some difficulties in measuring "the level of abstraction of > theistic concepts" at different times, and names like Artadama (if from > Rta-dhaman) in the fourteenth century BC would reveal some degree of > abstraction among Indo-Aryans already in the second millennium. Also, in > the Ancient Near East, abstractions (as well as physical objects, for > instance a kinna:ru at Ugarit!) were regarded as gods and received > offerings. All points granted. Levels of abstraction are relative, and ancient peoples worshipped many levels of them. There are also difficulties in precisely measuring abstractness. But, despite these problems, every serious premodernist recognizes that such differences exist -- and would have no difference distinguishing (say) Indra beating up Vrtra or YHWH stolling in the garden from abstract concepts of Virtue or Justice or abstract pantheons or the One. Moreover, I think that pretty good methods can be worked out distinguishing such things. My original comment also stands: We find obvious differences in levels of abstraction in theistic concepts when we compare early RV strata with later RV strata or with the Gathas. Do you *really* mean to dispute that? > According > to Hutter, Zarathustra was not a monotheist; Ahura Mazda is merely "an der > Spitze der Ahuras", and in OA "Ahura Mazda" is not even a fixed name at > Zarathustra's time. No one in this thread has claimed that the Mazdeans (let alone "Zarathustra" -- which always makes me want to ask, with Pliny and Humbach, "Which one?") were monotheists. (For references, see Humbach 1991: 48-9.) Best regards, Steve Farmer From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Sun Jan 14 21:39:24 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 01 22:39:24 +0100 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066571.23782.15725888411851644090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Bernfried Schlerath to point to the mazdaa-medhaa equation. You are right. deva- meaning "heavenly" is certainly correct, at least for the original meaning, though I like using "divine" because it actually uses the very same root... And it's difficult to tell when words based on this root in various IE linguistic settings mean literally "heavenly" or more abstractly "god". Steve: thanks for your interesting comments on the Gatha - Rigveda relationship. I am not in principle against the theory of mutually aggressive nomenclatura in the case of asura vs. daeuua, and you are perfectly right to point to the close exchange that was probably going on between the Indian and the Iranian cultural contexts in Rigvedic times. But I feel that if there really was an entire cultural conflict behind this linguistic issue, would one not assume that such a cultural conflict is evident in more than just this particular parallel? As I am not aware of any other such evidence, it seems to me that explaining this development of two religious terms with a cultural conflict is like explaining a pot hole with an earthquake. Sorry for being a bit flowery. I do agree that that pot hole may be caused by an earthquake, but in that case we should find a lot more if we go digging. And it is this evidence (which would have to be pretty massive in the case of a cultural conflict, wouldn't you think?) which I am at least not aware of. Maybe that evidence is there, and I am just not aware of it? I haven't followed the issue for a while, so maybe somebody else is more qualified than me to elaborate on what is currently input on this issue. Best regards, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com "B. Schlerath" schrieb: > Concerning asura- some remarks: > a. To explain the the post-rgvedic meaning asura- it is not necessary to > assume conflicts between Indians and Iranians. - deva- and asura- are > different types or aspects of gods although Varun.a, Agni, Indra and Soma > are invoked mostly as deva, but also as asura. > b. mazdaa is OI medhaa. Ahura Mazda is "Lord Wisdom" > c. deva- means originally "the Heavenly one", "living in the heaven" > Best regards Bernfried Schlerath > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]Im Auftrag von > Gunthard Mueller > Gesendet: Sonntag, 14. Januar 2001 16:37 > An: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Betreff: Re: Some questions on Asuras > > Dear Satya, > here are some thoughts about your questions 1 and 5. > > Asura is related to Avestan ahura "divine being, god", > Zoroastrian Ahura Mazda (the Asura Mahaa, as it were). > It seems that "divine being, god", without qualification > as "good" or "bad", is the Indo-Aryan meaning. After the > split-up of the Indo-Aryan framework of cultures into > an Indian and an Iranian branch, the word seems to > have gradually aquired a potential negative tinge in > the Indian branch. One theory assumes that this might > have been caused by conflicts between the Indian and > Iranian cultural complexes. The fact that the Iranians > used this word to refer to their gods is thought to > have inspired the Indian side to consider the word to > refer to enemy gods, in other words, "bad gods", or demons. > The earlier Indian texts would still refer to "good Indian > gods" as asuras, too, but when the conflict grew stiffer, > this usage would gradually fade out in favour of "bad > foreign gods", and then just "bad gods/demons" in general. > Interestingly, the Iranians also had a word for "bad gods/ > demons" -- it is related to the Indian word for "(good) god" > (deva)... > Which is derived from an Indo-European root meaning > "divine being/god" which can be found in many other > Indo-European branches. > So we might have a case where the Indians and the Iranians > referred to the gods of the respective others as "demons" or > "dangerous gods". > While this would be a nice mutually supportive parallelism, > this theory is otherwise difficult to prop up. I am not aware > of any conclusive external evidence in the textual sources > to decide this matter. (I have not monitored this issue recently, > so I may not be up-to-date.) > > This brings me to your question 5: > I think one should also keep in mind that from a general > Indo-European point of view divine forces have not > been thought to be reliably beneficient, nor as > reliably damaging, either... > In the earliest Greek songs, just like in early Indian texts, > the gods have to be INVOKED. > By singing/praying, the god was thought to be asked > to appear, very much in person. The god's power is exerted > in the presence of the praying human, or it is not exerted > at all. The god may even be invoked by some other > human, and asked to act in favour of that other person. > And that person may be an enemy! > In many early texts, humans often find themselves > incapable of pleasing all gods simultaneously. Their > presence may be mutually exclusive. It turns out to > be at the root of human suffering that humans can > never be in harmony with ALL divine forces. > In the early Greek epic, for example, it may not be enough > to be protected by Athene. If Poseidon wants to destroy you, > he might eventually be able to do it, even against Athene. > The gods don't seem to have been "good" or "bad" in > a pre-defined way -- they may act in your favour today, > but they could also act against you tomorrow. In other > words, they are gods who grant favours. > But humans could do something to improve their situation. > For one, there was "the Sun who sees everything and who > hears everything", a formulation that is there almost > identically in both Homeric Greek and Vedic. By fulfilling > apparent ethical norms (in this case, not lying, not committing > fraud, etc.) humans seem to be able to influence the gods in > their favour. > And it is, after all, possible to communicate with the god. > There is a beautiful poem by Sappho in which she invokes > Aphrodite and describes very precisely how she envisages > the way the goddess personally arrives and talks to the singer. > In this poem (7th/6th century BC), she actually quotes the > goddess, who asks Sappho "What has befallen your > heart again? Why do you call me again? What do > you want me to do for you, you troubled soul?". > These poems are very formulaic in structure, but > in their best form they are exquisite expressions > of a very personal (should I say bhakti-like...) > relationship with the god. > The gods are never thought of as "merely" human. > They are always on another level, even though > it is possible to communicate with them in song, > in prayer, in dreams, in visions. > For example, in the above-mentioned poem, > Sappho very drastically describes herself as > painfully love-sick, to the point of madness, > but the goddess of love, smiling with her > never-dying face, daughter of Zeus/Dyaus, > sitting on a cheerfully painted throne, "twister > of tricks", comes across as an incredibly serene, > happy, extremely powerful agent who has > everything totally under control, who always > knows a way out, not like Sappho, who is suffering > and feeling mentally confused. > It is this difference that makes humans call on the > gods for help. The Greek word "hieros", later meaning "holy", > orginally seems to have meant just "powerful". (According > to a popular theory it may be related to Vedic is.ira, > such as in is.irena manasaa, which seems to be the > equivalent of hieron menos in the Greek epic). So the gods > were the "powerful ones". But even the human mind could > be called hieros (the above example in Greek epic refers to > Achilles), and in the Odyssey the word was even used once > for a gigantic fish in the ocean. > So while the gods, being immortal, were in a different > dimension from humans, their qualities could be described > with the same attributes as human qualities. And it is exactly > this which makes it possible to communicate with them. > They do speak Vedic and Greek, and they do smile, even if > their smile appears on a never-dying face. > > Best wishes, > Gunthard > > gm at e-ternals.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Mon Jan 15 01:24:58 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 01:24:58 +0000 Subject: Ahura Mazda Message-ID: <161227066578.23782.16118363602402740648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the best of my knowledge, Ahura Mazda is neither the invention nor the discovery of the ancient Zoroastrian, or Persian or Iranian people. Ahura Mazda was also worshipped by Sumerians and Babylonians long before 550 BCE when Persians established their empire. There are difference of opinions among scholars whether Cyrus the Great was Zoroastrian or not. Daurius was and he belonged to Kavi family.Behind a man flying on a bird with ring in hand there is the ancient myth. Nowadays different scholars gave different interpretation to the bearded man with ring in hand and with wings like a bird. The same myth relates to pre-Islamic Al Khidra and also to the Al Khidar from Holy Kuran. There is an old temple dedicated to Al Khidar in Kuwait even today. Behind all stories there is the God from the Garden of Eden of the Old Testament. Yakshas were half or step brothers of Rakshsas. They were different from Adityas(children of Aditi-wife of Kashyapa-also called Devas-epithet), Daityas were children of second wife Diti of Kashyapa,DAnavas were children of Danu.To the best of my knowledge, connecting the word Ahura to Asur produces complicated results. There could be one of two consonants or vowels before the word Ahura that were dropped due to linguistic changes. This is also true with the name of the ancient people Assyrians. The names Sumerians, Assyrians, Medes, are fabricated names just like the name MAyA of the people from the Central America. Indian scholars taking these names as original names when try to related them to Sanskrit names (like Assyrians to Asuras) become laughing stocks among the people who fabricated these names for their own ease in writing these ancient names. Also Indra appears to be an epithet of the king of Adityas. First Indra had a son by name Jayanta. Also the meaning of word Indra could be dispersion because the rainbow is called Indra-Dhanu.sya. Indra is also recognized as the ruler of the dispersion of water-rain. The word Indra is also used as Narendra, Mrigendra. The word Indriya (senses) could be related to Indra meaning dispersion because Indriyas have to be contolled to conserve spiritual enery. Indra was famous in disturbing the spiritual practices of the ancient sages by sending his damsels.Indra was king of Svarga. However the word Suvarga was also mentioned.Thanks From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Jan 15 01:26:11 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 02:26:11 +0100 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066580.23782.6951427137734751587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Steve Farmer wrote: 1. > The reversal of attitudes towards the > asuras in later RV hymns and the Brahmanas, when viewed in light > of the *consistently* negative views of daeuuas in the Gathas, > would seem to me to hold a critical clue to resolving the > Zarathustra/Gathas dating problem. The probability of this > increases when we note that the level of abstraction of theistic > concepts in later RV 10 hymns are similar to those found in the > Gathas -- and quite different from those found in older hymns in > the RV family books. Taken together, these two pieces of data > suggest that the Gathas date from no earlier than the latest RV > strata, e.g. in mandala 10, which were presumably composed long > after the Indo-Iranian language split. I can see some difficulties in measuring "the level of abstraction of theistic concepts" at different times, and names like Artadama (if from Rta-dhaman) in the fourteenth century BC would reveal some degree of abstraction among Indo-Aryans already in the second millennium. Also, in the Ancient Near East, abstractions (as well as physical objects, for instance a kinna:ru at Ugarit!) were regarded as gods and received offerings. In this connection I would like to remind my readers of the difficult interpretation of "the gods Midra$$el" and "the gods Uruwana$$el/Aruna$$el" in the treaty between a Hittite and a Hurrian king. It is very strange that Mitra and Varuna have received Hurrian abstract suffixes here. Was this a Hurrian innovation, or did it correspond to something that already existed in Indo-Aryan? In Onofrio Carruba's paper, which I have discussed earlier, he cites Gernot Wilhelm, who suggests that we should regard the expressions as denoting "die Vertragsnumina als ein evtl. konkretisiertes Abstraktum... das wie ein Kollektiv behandelt wird". Carruba himself says (p. 64-65): "Wenn wir uns die urspruengliche Bedeutung beider Goetterbezeichnungen und ihre Eigenschaften ins Gedaechtnis zurueckrufen, so heisst mitra- "Vertrag, Buendnis", und der Gott gilt als Vertragsbeschuetzer; bei Varuna ist die Bedeutung noch unsicher, scheint aber auf "Wahrheit" und auf den vor allem bei Vertraegen sie beschuetzenden "Schwur"... hinzudeuten." What has happened, then, is that the abstractions "treaty, alliance" and "truth", as qualities of Mitra and Varuna, have been deified. This is indeed remarkable, but there are some parallels in other Hurrian texts. 2. > In any case, the demonization of the gods of bordering > civilizations occurred everywhere in the premodern world, as > witnessed by much evidence from the Middle East, Europe, China, > and even Mesoamerica. It is difficult to believe that something > else was involved in the asuras/ahuras case. The sharp reversal > in attitudes towards the asuras found in late RV and later Vedic > sources appears to be strong prima facie evidence of extended > contact between Indian and Iranian civilizations long after their > linguistic split. In the Ancient Near East of the second millennium, foreign gods were as a rule respected and highly regarded. They could even be brought back to the city of a conqueror and venerated there. The demonization of the daevas is regarded by Manfred Hutter as a somewhat gradual phenomenon, particularly strong in post-islamic times. According to Hutter, Zarathustra was not a monotheist; Ahura Mazda is merely "an der Spitze der Ahuras", and in OA "Ahura Mazda" is not even a fixed name at Zarathustra's time. He says explicitly that "die feste Wendung "Ahura Mazda" sich jedoch erst in jungavestischer Zeit als Eigenname durchgesetzt hat". Hutter cites a plural form of Mitra used in Y. 46,5, mithroibiio (strangely reminiscent of the Hurrian plural "Midra$$el"!), and comments that Zarathustra in this way succeeded in avoiding the singular form, "die lautlich mit dem Gottesnamen zusammenfaellt". Zarathustra does not like Mitra, but he simply cannot get rid of him. Hutter dates the arrival of the Medes in the Iranian plateau to about 1000 BC, and he thinks the Gathas were composed farther to the north before this time. He notes that the name Assara Maza$ is mentioned in an Assyrian text from the ninth or eighth century BC, and that the teachings would have needed some time to spread to the Medes in the west. Archaeologically, the use of horse-drawn chariots in the area east of the Aral Sea is known from about 1600 BC, so the terminology of horses and horse races (in the Avesta) could be very old. (By the way, horse-drawn chariots were used in warfare in Anatolia in the eighteenth century, as attested in the Anitta text.) 3. > I assume that there are probably strong counterarguments to these > views, which I would be interested in hearing. I also assume that > George Thompson might have informed opinions on this issue. I, too, would be very interested in George Thompson's views! Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol, Oslo From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Jan 15 09:59:29 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 10:59:29 +0100 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066585.23782.3531169533413808474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Steve Farmer wrote: > We find obvious differences in > levels of abstraction in theistic concepts when we compare early > RV strata with later RV strata or with the Gathas. Do you > *really* mean to dispute that? No, I cannot dispute that. The question is, how do we explain these differences, and how do we date them? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jan 15 22:39:22 2001 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 14:39:22 -0800 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066604.23782.17699099078715375281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: > Steve Farmer wrote: > > > We find obvious differences in > > levels of abstraction in theistic concepts when we compare early > > RV strata with later RV strata or with the Gathas. Do you > > *really* mean to dispute that? > > No, I cannot dispute that. The question is, how do we explain these > differences, and how do we date them? These obviously aren't questions that we can settle in a couple of posts. But I think that a preliminary answer is suggested if we consider similar transformations that took place in other ancient traditions. The fact is that if you chronologically rearrange early stratified canons just about anywhere you run into the same phenomenon (i.e., increased abstractness in concepts over time) -- in Chinese texts in the Warring States period (i.e., early fifth to late third centuries BCE), in heavily layered Egyptian funereal traditions (in successive redactions of the pyramid and coffin texts and Bk of the Dead), in successive strata of the Pentateuch or Torah, in early Homeric exegeses, in stratified Vedic or Buddhist traditions, or in thickly layered Mesoamerican texts like the Books of Chilam Balam. Similar processes can also be identified in less densely stratified cuneiform texts, normally operating at somewhat slower rates. This supports your observation about abstract deities of particular sorts (also abstract pantheons, etc.) appearing at early dates in the Ancient Middle East. So the short answer is that I think that this increase in abstractness is closely connected to the early layering of traditions. We find it showing up whenever texts (written or oral) become relatively "fixed" and start accumulating over time. The phenomenon is less evident in Perry-Lord type oral situations (e.g., in the Homeric corpus), although you can even find it here in a primitive form. I've previously argued that I think that simple exegetical processes explain most of these transformations -- arising from redactors in later layers confronting conflicting data in earlier ones. The speed with which such transformations occur may even include some dating clues. But I too am under the gun and must leave it at that for now. Thanks to Bjarte et al. for the suggestive data and comments! Regards, Steve Farmer From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Jan 15 20:39:44 2001 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 15:39:44 -0500 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066600.23782.3921697468295749799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pleasures of the holidays and the pressures of other duties have both kept me from participating in recent List discussions, but as some of you know this issue is of great interest to me. Unfortunately, I am presently in the unhappy position of severely bending a deadline. I cannot give this discussion the attention that it deserves, because further delays in delivering a manuscript to a very patient editor will lead to the deadline's breaking point. So perhaps a few words, with apologies, will suffice. There seems to be some evidence in both Avestan and in Vedic of some small measure of contact and mutual awareness of each other. Some of this evidence comes in the form of onomastics. Two examples [one from Iranian, ther other from Indic]: [1] the name of a Zoroastrian, dAztAGni, appears to contain an isolated form of the Vedic word agni, as well as an isolated form of the Vedic verb dAz- [i.e., dAzta- found only in one other proper name in Avestan, dAztAiiAni, in this case the name of a hostile person]. Given the isolation of both dAzta- and -aGni in Iranian, it is possible that this name [as well as dAztAiiAni] is Indic, and that the bearer of the name may have belonged to an Indic clan in contact with Iranians. [2] the name of a patron in the RV at 8.46.21-24, pRthuzravas kanIta: the latter has been connected [by Hoffmann and Witzel] to the name of a certain Scythian prince, Kanites, which is attested on a Scythian coin. Briefly, this may be evidence of a Vedic patron [to whom this dAnastuti is being offered], who bears an Iranian name. The eighth book of the RV, well-known for its "Iranian connections" seems to attest here the participation of an Iranian, or at least a person with an Iranian name, in the Vedic rituals of exchange. This has been discussed on the List in the past. There is other evidence as well, and of other kinds, but the matter is difficult. For example, not very long ago on the List H.H. Hock pointed out that the Avestan change of s > h may in fact be fairly late. In one of his recent posts Bjarte Kaldhol has noted [citing M. Hutter] that the name Assara Maza$ is mentioned in an Assyrian text from the ninth or eighth century BCE. This is also cited by A. Hintze in a recent article, as evidence of the late date of this phonological change. This lateness makes it more difficult to distinguish proto-Iranian from proto-Indic, as we've seen already in the discussion of the presumably Indo-Aryan forms attested in the Mitanni texts. Similarly, when I look for evidence [not only linguistic but also cultural] for identifying what is proto-Iranian and what is proto-Indic, in Avestan and in Vedic texts, well, I am frequently confronted with the problem of not being able to clearly distinguish the one from the other. But this difficulty is double-edged, because it exposes, I think, an important point: that in our oldest Indo-Iranian texts there remains significant evidence not only of a common linguistic and cultural inheritance, but also of an ascertainable measure [though admittedly small and steadily shrinking through time] of continued contact. In fact, the paper that I should be writing now touches on another aspect of these very issues. I hope to have the chance to discuss them on the List in the near future. Best wishes, and with apologies for being in such a rush: the clock is ticking loudly! George Thompson From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Jan 15 15:06:27 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 16:06:27 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066590.23782.4248104776931134897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 13 Jan 2001, um 14:13 schrieb N. Ganesan: 7F00,0000,0000> Sorry for the error. This should read as: > > Ka. himmaDi, Ka. himmeTTu, Ta. tImmozi, Ta. mummalam > etc. are not relevant and they do not have any bearing in > the formation of the language name, Kannada. > What is needed is -ann- << -amn- and not -mm- examples. But you have still not explained what is so important about the vowel, and why the examples with 'e' are irrelevant. It may well be that there are no other examples, and that this does not matter either, for: how many monosyllabic lexemes that become the first element in compounds are there? hiC- ('C' here stands for 'consonant'), muC-, keC-, kaC- and a few numerals, and I think this is all. They are about as rare as Dravidian adjectives are; and with such few instances, it seems difficult to draw statistically binding conclusions. 7F00,0000,0000> The type of assimilation happens in Sanskrit as well, > not just in Tamil. > 0000,8000,0000http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi- shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R42397F00,0000,0000 I had a look at it, but it seems to concern Prakrit, and not Sanskrit, :-) and the combination r+n gives .n.n (cerebral). Anyhow, the Tamil example does look good and confirms that the old suggestion karu- naa.du is a serious possibility - even if it is Tamil and not Kannada. But I am still not entirely convinced that kam-naa.du is impossible, or that the parallel examples with kem- are not relevant. The question would of course be solved if we find an old inscription that explicitly tells us the etymology - but I don't think that we should hold our breath waiting for that, and for the time being we should perhaps keep the question open. RZ Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1929 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 15 16:06:59 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 16:06:59 +0000 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa (was: Karave caste and Kurus) Message-ID: <161227066596.23782.808490481812589720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Anyhow, the Tamil example does look good and confirms that the old >suggestion karu-naa.du is a serious possibility - even if it is Tamil and >not Kannada. Do we know when is the earliest representaion of KarnATa(ka) in Sanskrit? In Kannada inscriptions? >But I am still not entirely convinced that kam-naa.du is impossible, >or that the parallel examples with kem- are not relevant. You have written that KarnATaka looks like a "Sanskritization" of an early Kannada word. Are you thinking that that Kannada word is kam-nADu? If so, is changes from kam-naa.du to kar-naa.tu rather routine? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Mon Jan 15 10:59:21 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 16:29:21 +0530 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066587.23782.3798050188700548492.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can of course easily understand evolution within the Rgveda itself. But what are the arguments to suggest that the Gathic sophistication must be later than and not parallel with the early-Rv "simplicity" ? rajesh kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Steve Farmer wrote: > >> We find obvious differences in >> levels of abstraction in theistic concepts when we compare early >> RV strata with later RV strata or with the Gathas. Do you >> *really* mean to dispute that? > >No, I cannot dispute that. The question is, how do we explain these >differences, and how do we date them? > >Best wishes, > >Bjarte Kaldhol From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 15 23:41:19 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 18:41:19 -0500 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066606.23782.17079511018499133498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Prof Gunthard Mueller/B. Schlerath and others for explaining about good/bad qualities of gods. In my opinion the gods are in general meant to do good, but they have to first establish themselves and arrange for their own food. After that they do the good that is expected of them. This has the usual philosophical implications. One such example is aditi - the mother of gods, who also has a male form as death as per Br.U.1.2.6. where aditi (as a "he") eats all possible beings and concepts. Once aditi had his fill, he may later acquire a feminine form and creates the gods etc. I wouldn't believe Avestan opinions are final, because there may be a lot of missing literature to the contrary. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From sellmer at INDO.UNI-KIEL.DE Mon Jan 15 17:58:51 2001 From: sellmer at INDO.UNI-KIEL.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 18:58:51 +0100 Subject: priya Message-ID: <161227066598.23782.15775126746610623949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know of articles or monagraphs dealing with the words priya (Pali piya), or with other expressions meaning "dear" etc.? (I.e., besides Meinrad Scheller's "Vedisch priya-..."). Many thanks for any help, Sven Sellmer, M.A. Seminar f. Orientalistik Abteilung f. Indologie Leibnizstr. 10 24118 Kiel Germany sellmer at indo.uni-kiel.de From venkitesh at ETH.NET Mon Jan 15 15:46:54 2001 From: venkitesh at ETH.NET (Venkiteshwaran) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 21:16:54 +0530 Subject: history of indian chemistry & agriculture Message-ID: <161227066593.23782.15197079582779169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear members i am writing a paper on the history of indian chemistry and agricultural science it focuses basically on the history of literature on these subjects looking forward to help in terms of suggestions, bibliography, sources etc thanking everyone in advance dr.muthulakshmy lecturer in vedanta sree sankara university of sanskrit vanchiyoor trivandrum kerala, india From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 15 21:28:22 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 01 21:28:22 +0000 Subject: KarnATaka/KannaDa Message-ID: <161227066602.23782.11620953279946870425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RZ>"karuna.tar" is a variation I have not yet seen! But the RZ>Sanskritised "kar.naa.ta" seems to have existed already RZ>before then, Kamban in his RamayaNam uses the form, karunaTar: Eti yAtavar, Ez tiRal kogkaNar, cEtirAcar, telugkar, karunaTar, Kam. 1.19.1-2 DED does not list 'karu' to mean "height, raised up platform" etc. Does Kannada has that meaning? Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 16 02:29:15 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 02:29:15 +0000 Subject: Yogacara idealism Message-ID: <161227066608.23782.7558598525630780479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> birgit kellner on Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:53:40 -0500 > >A last (I promise!) clarification on Satya Upadhya's last message on >"Yogacara idealism": --> My last post to u on this matter as well. >The argument does not directly >address the status of external objects. --> It is my humble suggestion that you have not yet read the refutation of the saholpalambha argument by the opponents of the Yogacara position (most notable of these being the Nyaya-Vaisesika,Mimansaka, Jain, and Vaibhasika Budhists). I would suggest that you do so to at least gain some perspective on how the philosophical opponents of the Yogacara view this argument (and how they refute it). --> There does seem to be a remarkable uniformity in how the opponents of the Yogacara view this argument, and the views of these scholars (opponents of Yogacara) would not be in agreement of your views on this matter, in my opinion. --> Here is how the Mimansaka Kumrila Bhatta views this argument: " You assert: 'The real reason for the co-comprehension is the identity of the conception of the object comprehended.' But this is never true. And certainly, you have not been questioned by me to afford you the occasion for making any wild assertion you please. None experiences the character of both the comprehender and the comprehended with regard to a single entity. Nor can such a dual character be ever established by inference, specially on the assumption that everything is sensation (for inference means the knowledge of something from something else)." -Kumarila Bhatta, Sloka Vartika, sunya-vada 64 --> Above is the basic objection of Kumarila; he goes on to point out several other absurdities in the sahopalambha argument. --> Here are just a few words of the Jain philosopher Akalanka on this argument: "Many persons perceive a blue thing at one and the same time. Now, here though a person cognizes "the blue", he does not cognise the "cognition of the blue" occuring in another person's mind. If the blue and the cognition of the blue were identical, he would have perceived even the cognition of the blue occuring in anothe person's mind." And then again, says Akalanka--"na hi jatu visajnanam maranam pratidhavati"--death does not result from the mere knowledge or the idea of the poison. "If venom is not an external reality but only a form of consciousness or an idea, how could there take place the phenomenon of death on taking it? We do not die simply on account of our having an idea of the venom. " --quotes from "Akalanka's criticism of Dharmakirti's philosophy" by N.J. Shah (pgs 175-177) --> The Vaibhasika Budhist Subhagupta says: "When one entertains the view that the mind alone is real, how can one fulfill the elementary duties such as charities, etc.?..When one practises repeatedly and several times a charity-thought (i.e. charity in the form of mere thought, or more simply, the bare idea of charity), it never releases anybody from poverty." --Subhagupta, Bahyartha Sidhi, 5-6 The main difficulty in your >above rephrasings of this argument is the ambiguity of the word >"object": You read the argument as talking about external objects; in >fact, it deals with phenomenal object, with percepts, images, >representations - in other words, that which appears in perception. >This is one reason why the sn-argument cannot be taken to directly >address the existence of external objects. --> I will again repeat what i had written earlier. In his Pramana Vartika (iii.353-5), Dharmakirti says: "How knowledge which is the sole existing reality can appear in the form of objects, even i do not know...just as people under the spell of magic, see pieces of mud, etc. not in their own form but in certain other forms, so does knowledge appear there not in its own form but in the form of objects." [--> I had earlier specified that the above quote was from the NB; i was wrong .] > >-->> Do you dispute the fact that the PS is the most important work of >SU> Dignaga? >I fail to see what this has to do with the sn-argument. --> u have snipped out the context in which i made the above statement. You had earlier said that Jinendrabudhi is not the most important commentator of Dignaga in ur earlier post (in response to what i had claimed earlier). But, if the PS is the most important work of Dignaga, and if it is only Jinendrabudhi's commentary on this work that we now have available, then it would appear that ur earlier statement was erroneous. > >-->> Your argument that we ought to disregard Vinitadeva because >Dharmottara >SU> disagrees with him appears presumptious. >This was not my argument. My argument was that you lumped VinItadeva >and Dharmottara together as those commentators of DharmakIrti that we >should mainly rely on. I thought this to be quite ironic, because >precisely amongst these commentators, you will find much disagreement >and, in fact, a huge difference in approach to writing a commentary. --> u will also find some serious differences between the commentators of Kumarila Bhatta (in particular on Kumarila's views on "Moksha") between Parthasarathi Mishra (the major commentator of Kumarila), and the other commentators of Kumarila. But just because two commentators disagree with each other does not mean that we cannot take a look at both of them (to better understand the source book). --> Vinitadeva's book is also important in that it is simple and straightforward. (Dharmottara is a lot more scholarly). >As I stated above, there is a controversy amonst commentators >regarding the interpretation of the qualifier "abhrAnta" in the >DharmakIrtian definition of perception. VinItadeva and KamalazIla, >perhaps also ZAntarakzita, interpret "abhrAnta" as "avisaMvAdaka" >("non-belying"/"reliable") in order to harmonize the definition with both >YogAcAra and SautrAntika >presuppositions, whereas Dharmottara interprets it "not erroneous with >respect to an object-suppoert", i.e. as solely based on SautrAntika >presuppositions (the Tippani merely reiterates his view). --> "Abhranta", so far as i understand, is taken to mean "non-illusory". That is how Vachaspati Mishra (considered to be very reliable normally) defines this word. > >The key issue underlying the discussion of "abhrAnta" is whether error is >assumed to be due >solely to conceptualization or also due to deficient sense-faculties: >In the former case, perceptions like that of a double-moon which arise >from damaged senses would either have to be admitted as correct or as >instances of conceptual error - both approaches create further >problems. In the latter case, problems arise regarding DignAga's >definition of perception solely by the qualifier "devoid of >conceptualization". --> Which is why Vachaspati Mishra remarks that "The Master [Dignaga] has dropped the characterestic of non-illusoriness ["Abhranta"], since he knows this non-illusoriness is suicidal for his whole system." But why is it so? Stcherbatsky, while commenting on this, explains: such an addition could be "interpreted as excluding the view of the Yogacaras, for whom all emperical cognition was a hopeless illusion" (Budhist Logic 156). If ideas, and ideas alone are real, then all knowledge of ordinary life are necessarily illusory. In other words, to talk of right perception as non-illusory amounts to the surrender of the Yogacara position, something which Dignaga does not wish to do. >DharmakIrti clearly advocates both sensory and conceptual error, >whereas DignAga's position is - as I see it - more difficult to >reconstruct. --> In fact Dignaga's position on sensory and conceptual error has, to my knowledge, been reconstructed quite satisfactorily. >There are passages like the famous list of >"pseudo-perceptions" in PS I 7cd-8ab which may indicate an acceptance >solely of conceptual error, but then there are others in which >sense-faculties are also mentioned as producing error. --> You, of course, do not tell me which " others" you are referring to here. At any rate, commentators introduced the criterion of a harmonization with YogAcAra- and/or >SautrAntika-presuppositions rather as a tool in order to justify their >respective interpretations of this expression, and in order to >harmonize DharmakIrti's definition with that of DignAga - the question >as to whether DignAga/DharmakIrti ARE YogAcArins or SautrAntikas was >not their main concern in this context. --> Since sectarian jealousies and sharp disputations were a common feature of Indian philosophy, it is not difficult to see why the commentators would feel uncomfortable in discussing as to whether Dharmakirti is speaking from the Sautantrika position (in his works on logic). [ One remembers that the Sautantrika is a school within Hinayana Budhism, while the Yogacara is within the Mahayana Budhism.] There is no dispute about Dignaga, to my knowledge: he speaks from the Yogacara position even when he deals with logic (since he cleverly changes the ordinary meaning of perception and drops the principle of non-illusion). >I am not interested in exegesis of Chattopadhyaya, whose work is not >available to me so that I cannot pass judgment on it (from the >passages you quote, it seems to me that his English terminology is >simply not refined enough to capture the implications of the arguments >presented by DharmakIrti etc.), but in understanding and assessing >arguments by Buddhist epistemologists. >Chattopadhyaya should have taken into account commentaries and texts by >Devendrabuddhi, ZAkyabuddhi, ZAntarakSita and PrajJArakaragupta. See >for yourself whether he did, and how. --> No doubt, the reason why his English terminology is not "refined enough" is because he is criticising the Yogacara position (a school of thought u are obliged to defend, being a Tibetan Budhist scholar). --> In the foreward of his book Chattopadhyaya himself says that his book is a "draft for discussion". So if one were to read it expecting fancy and obscure terminology (which some modern scholars are very fond of afaik), then one would indeed be dissappointed. --> Never the less, here is the American philosopher Dale Reipe's estimate of Chattopadhyaya (from Reipe's book "Objectivity and Subjectivism in the Philosophy of Science with Special Reference to India", pg 93): "It seems clear that without a knowledge of Debiprasad's Lokayata we cannot understand the main ideas and arguments of classical to modern Indian philosophy, and without "What is living and what is dead in Indian philosophy", we cannot fathom the development of Indian metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics as we find them today. As a worthy student of Surendranath Dasgupta, Debiprasad has become his successor as the most important historian of Indian philosophy of his own time." > >DignAga does not provide an explicit definition of pramANas, so I >would find it quite difficult to actually find a definition that he >"changed". --> Several prominent scholars, ancient and modern, would disagree with you here, but again, i'll let this pass. >For the umpteenth time: I do not dispute the claim that YogAcAra >philosophers admit the reality of only ideas. I have no opinion on >this issue, because (a) the statement "admitting the reality of only >ideas" is too vague, I think, to yield any philosophically interesting >understanding of the issues at hand, and (b) I am not competent >enough to assess the works ascribed to AsaGga, Vasubandhu, Sthiramati, >DharmapAla and so forth in this respect. I merely aimed to point out >that the sn-argument, and now also the dispute on "abhrAnta", are not >good starting-points for looking into this question. --> Yes, you have indeed said time and again that "i have no opinion on this" when asked whether the Yogacara was an idealistic school, when asked whether it denied external objects, etc. When you do not have an opinion on such basic questions, and continue to be evasive with these kind of statements, (despite claiming to be a Budhist scholar) it does seem a little odd to me. -->On the other hand, when it comes to the sahopalambha niyama, you quite strongly protest to the effect that this argument does not deny the independent existence of external objects (even though that is how the opponents of the Yogacara have viewed this). --> No doubt, a frank admission on ur part ( to the effect that the Yogacara denies the reality of external objects) would mean that no one on this List would take Tibetan Budhist scholars seriously anymore (since Tibetan Budhism is really Mahayana Budhism as is well known). >SU> Dharmakirti comes out with a remarkable answer to this. "How >SU> knowledge," he says, "which is the sole existing reality, can appear in >the >SU> form of objects... (NB i.14). > >This passage does not appear in NB, so please recheck your sources. --> It is from the Pramana Vartika iii.353-5. Sorry about the mix up. > >On the whole, I have the impression that you are not reading my >messages thoroughly, or if you do, that you are not taking my statements >into account >properly when you compose yours. --> Not difficult to understand why since my views on the Yogacara are radically different from yours. >Otherwise I would not have to repeat myself >for so many times, and I would not encounter statements in your >messages again that I had already clarified before. --> What clarifications? The clarification that "I do not have an opinion on this" when it comes to fundamental questions like whether the Yogacara denies the reality of external objects? >You also have not made >use of the important contribution by John Dunne, who pointed out >many revealing passages and ideas that should assist in investigating >the avobe issues. --> I did take a look at what John Dunne had written, but i do not believe it has any bearing on the issues we are now discussing. >Furthermore, it seems to me that your key interest lies in defending >Chattopadhyaya rather >than evaluating his interpretations on the background of primary >sources - which are, after all, what one should mainly be interested >in, unless one were to establish Chattopadhyaya as an original >philosopher rather than a scholar of Indian Philosophy. --> I have read the primary sources in parts (i will definitely read them in full when i have more time). Further, my interest lies not in defending Chattopadhyaya but in criticising the Yogacara. I believe the Mahayana Budhism (and also Hindu idealism) did great damage to India in the past (by weakening the fighting spirit of the Indian people), and some of the idealistic ideas (like "karma", etc. )are continuing to be an obstacle to social progress, especially at the grass roots rural level. > >I consider this a rather unhelpful approach to discussing these >issues, which is unlikely to generate any further or deeper >understanding - which is why I shall bow out now and consider this >thread closed at least from my side. > --> Likewise. Best, Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 16 02:59:00 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 02:59:00 +0000 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066612.23782.14204342232449681986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Gunthard Mueller, Steve Farmer, and others for their viws on this subject. One of the things which you haven't touched so far, in my opinion, is the fact that some very definite philosophy and practices (like their cosmogony, for example) is discussed in several books like the Bhagawad Gita, some of the Upanisads, Puranas, etc. Now, the question is: should we look into these books, and examine what has been said about the asuras here, to identify in effect who the asuras were? To give an example, the Visnu Purana talks of the fact that the Asuras declared that the "slaughter (of animals in sacrifice) is not conducive to religious merit...if Indra, after having attained to godhead by numerous sacrifices, feeds upon sami and other woods, then an animal which eats leaves is superior to him. If it be a fact that a beast slain in sacrifice is exalted to heaven, why doesn not the worshipper slaughter his own father? If a man is really satiated by the food which another person eats, then sraadhas should be offered to people who are travelling abroad, and they, trusting to this, should have no need to carry food along with them" (iii.18.14-26 (tr. Muir)). --> In the Maitrayani Upanisad is mentioned: " Verily, Brahaspati (the teacher of the gods) became Sukra (the teacher of the Asuras), and for the security of Indra created this ignorance ("avidya") for the destruction of the Asuras (devils). By this (ignorance) men declare that the inauspicious is auspicious, and that the auspicious is inauspicious. They say that there should be attention to law (dharma) which is destructive of the Veda and of other scripture (sastra). Hence, one should not attend to this (teaching). It is false. It is like a barren woman. Mere pleasure is the fruit thereof as also of one who deviates from the proper course. It should not be entered upon" (vii.9. (tr. Hume)). --> Above views, it is not hard to see, are the views of the Charvakas. --> Consider also now the cosmogony of the asuras as given in the Bhagawad Gita--"aparaspara sambhutam kim anyat kama haitukam"--the world originated from the union of the male and the female and that it could not have any other cause than kama or the sexual urge. (xvi.8) --> Above is the view of the Tantriks as is well known. --> Now, do the above passages (and other passages like these) need to be studied in order to understand who the asuras originally were? --> Also, how does one account for the fact that the Jain philosopher Gunaratna identifies the Tantrikas with the Lokayatikas? -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL Tue Jan 16 02:35:20 2001 From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 03:35:20 +0100 Subject: Kumbha Mela sequence In-Reply-To: <200101142349.f0ENnur17556@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227066610.23782.7745337824297434550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 15:52 01-01-14 -0800, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >The sequence is: > >PrayAga (Allahabad) >Nasik >Ujjain >HaridvAra (Hardwar) > >It is determined astrologically, by the position of Jupiter in the "fixed" >constellations (ie. sidereal positions). > >PrayAga-------- Jupiter in Taurus (with Sun and Moon in Capricorn) >Nasik------------ Jupiter in Leo (with Sun and Moon in Cancer) >Ujjain------------ Jupiter in Scorpio (when the Sun enters Libra) >Hardwar------ Jupiter in Aquarius (when the Sun enters Aries) > >Jupiter has a 12-year cycle, so it takes place in a different site every 3 >years. > >See Kane, History of Dharmasastra, vol. 5, pt. 1: 287. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the reference. The official U.P. government Kumbh Mela page at http://www.kumbhallahabad.com/ made me wonder. It looks like their sequence is Hardwar-----------Jupiter in Aquarius (Sun and Moon in Cancer or Leo) Allahabad---------Jupiter in Aries or Taurus (Sun and Moon in Capricorn) Ujjain---------------Jupiter in Leo (Sun in Aries) Nasik---------------Jupiter in Leo (Sun and Moon in Leo) With regards, Artur Karp From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 16 08:58:14 2001 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 09:58:14 +0100 Subject: priya In-Reply-To: <003b01c07f1c$d1a16100$2472f586@indo.unikiel.de> Message-ID: <161227066614.23782.355354052048970709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sven Sellmer asks: >Does anybody know of articles or monagraphs dealing with the words priya >(Pali piya), or with other expressions meaning "dear" etc.? (I.e., besides >Meinrad Scheller's "Vedisch priya-..."). Minoru Hara: "A note on the Sanskrit phrase devAnAM priya-", Indian Linguistics (Poona) 30, 1969 (= Katre Felicitation Vol., Pt. II), pp. 13-26. Regards, G.v.Simson From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 16 15:19:35 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 10:19:35 -0500 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066624.23782.15448652227798218497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Visnu Purana talks of the fact that the Asuras declared that the > >"slaughter (of animals in sacrifice) is not conducive to religious >merit... Asuras, like Satan, talk a hundred things to mislead gods. So you shouldn't be getting into the asurAs' trap. :-) Veda permits animals to be slain as per its prescription. Remember gods like aditi have to commit their part of violence before they establish themselves, like a US President or a university professor has to fight his way up to top before he can deliver his/her goods. Every Vedic symbol is an eater while it is trying to establish itself; but it becomes food when it caters to others. These concepts are very elaborately explained in Br.U. Eater/food model is just a two element model at the highest level; but at lower level it expands into a whole food chain starting form viSNu, aditi, varuNa and so on ending with agni or soma. >--> In the Maitrayani Upanisad is mentioned: " Verily, Brahaspati (the >teacher of the gods) became Sukra Good one! A counter strategy by gods or cold war tactics? >--> Consider also now the cosmogony of the asuras as given in the >Bhagawad >Gita--"aparaspara sambhutam kim anyat kama haitukam" gIta is right in its own way when it says kAma, krodha, mada, lobha, moha and mAtsaryAs must be eliminated. But gIta's kAma is not same as vedic kAma. gIta's kAma is a dirty word. Vedic kAma is a sacred principle as defined by Br.U 1.4.17 "Let me have a wife so that I may have children, let me have wealth so that I may perform rites, this much indeed is desire (kAma)". Veda implies that kAma is asking for wife, children, wealth needed for performing rites and aspiring for divine wealth of Vedic knowledge; looking for anything more is a theft. I dare say gIta's definition of kAma has to be ignored in view of Br.U 1.4.17. >--> Above is the view of the Tantriks as is well known. Even if kAma means sex, IMO, originaly tantra had a much wider meaning than sex. Tantras are either conjectures/techniques which were invented before there was a proof of why they work, or they were pieces of forgotten Vedic knowledge, or they were pre-Vedic experiments. Legend says vizvAmitra invented gAyatri but didn't know its meaning till he became brahmarSi, so gAyatri mantra is quoted by some people as tantra. Tantras may be pre-vedic experiments like kuNDalini or vedic concepts like nigaDAs or praiSAs whose meaning is forgotten. It is also possible that even in the Vedic days, many people who did not have enough intelligence practiced some Vedic ideas as tantras. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 16 15:36:32 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 10:36:32 -0500 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066626.23782.14651263912171042443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the state of a god before establishing himself/herself is defined as asura, and the state after establishing oneself is defined as daiva, then all the daiva-asura battles logically reduce to the battles between the pre and post forms of the daivas. So ultimately there are neither daivas nor asuras, which is advaita. From provisioning perspective, the physical and mental resources of the human/animal body are limited, so the entities have to compete with each other to minimise the usage and maximize effectiveness. Hope this helps for now. Why are Prof Jeff Kripal et al still using the old Freudian Psychoanalysis which badly needs an update? It is time to move on to Psychophysics and Neurolinguistics which have borrowed advanced and scientific ideas from fields like AI. Best Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 16 02:51:28 2001 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 10:51:28 +0800 Subject: Skjema In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066616.23782.213705844667871427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hei georg, Kan du v?re s? snill ? levere tilbake biblioteketsskjemaet jeg satte i posthyllen din, med opplysninger om klassetimene dine? Tusen takk! Ruth -- *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Jan 16 02:52:26 2001 From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 10:52:26 +0800 Subject: Apology Message-ID: <161227066619.23782.2116480702479499154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for the private message I inadvertently sent to Indology. Best regards, Ruth Schmidt -- *********************************************** Ruth Laila Schmidt Dept of East European and Oriental Studies University of Oslo P.O. Box 1030 Blindern N-0315 Oslo, Norway Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86 Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40 Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Jan 16 12:32:55 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 13:32:55 +0100 Subject: Karnataka/KannaDa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066621.23782.14807254102491025683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 15 Jan 2001, um 16:06 schrieb N. Ganesan: > Do we know when is the earliest representaion of KarnATa(ka) > in Sanskrit? In Kannada inscriptions? I do not have editions of Karnatakan inscriptions with me at present, so unfortunately I cannot check. But Kar.naa.ta does occur in the oldest Kannada grammar, the ;Sabdama.nidarpa.nam (9th century) - unfortunately without explanation of the meaning. > >But I am still not entirely convinced that kam-naa.du is impossible, > >or that the parallel examples with kem- are not relevant. > > You have written that KarnATaka looks like a > "Sanskritization" of an early Kannada word. > Are you thinking that that Kannada word is kam-nADu? > If so, is changes from kam-naa.du to kar-naa.tu rather > routine? The 'r' occurs in Sanskritised words to 'explain' or 'justify' why there is a retroflex sound later in that word (the best known example being 'Draavi.da'). Once the r was in place, the Sanskritisers were consistent and also made the first n retroflex. (When the Kannada Sahitya Parishad was founded, there was a day-long debate over whether it should be named "Kar.naa.taka Saahitya Pari.sattu" [retroflex n] or "Karnaa.taka Saahitya Pari.sattu" [dental n]; the problem was finally solved by calling it "Kanna.da Saahitya Pari.sattu"). Am 15 Jan 2001, um 21:28 schrieb N. Ganesan: > Kamban in his RamayaNam uses the form, karunaTar: > > Eti yAtavar, Ez tiRal kogkaNar, > cEtirAcar, telugkar, karunaTar, > > Kam. 1.19.1-2 > > DED does not list 'karu' to mean "height, raised up > platform" etc. Does Kannada has that meaning? Yes, that also exists, and this too has been put forward as an explanation of the name: "greatness" or "loftiness" or "hardness". The Kanna.da Ratnakoo;sa (publ. Kanna.da Saahitya Pari.sattu) gives as one meaning "ettara" ("height") and actually proceeds, in the same entry: "karunaa.du = ettaravaada naa.du; Kanna.danaa.du" ("high land; Kannada land"). But this little dictionary gives no reference to where this meaning is found (and my better dictionaries have not yet come over from India, like the inscriptions; sorry). "High land" to me seems a more probable candidate than "black land" or "stone land", because (a) most of the land is not black, but ochre, and I do not think that this was very different in ancient times, (b) the typical hills that mark the eastern part of Karnataka (given as a reason for this etymology) are usually called 'be.t.ta' and not 'kallu' (the word 'be.t.ta' also enters into the names of many of these hills). (Karu 'height' + naa.du > Kan-naa.du would of course nicely fit the pattern of Tamil 'nerunal'.) So there are quite a number of explanations to choose from. I have to admit that the question did not interest me very much until now; but it is annoying and calls for an answer. RZ Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 16 22:53:54 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 17:53:54 -0500 Subject: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066634.23782.8517930563144383668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I found a reference to a 25 page publication, Suutraantaraparigrahavicaara, by Vaasudeva Zaastrii Abhyankara dated to sometime around 1922. Has anyone seen this publication? Would like to have a photocopy of it, if anyone has access to it. The booklet deals with the debate over the question of which ritual Suutra should be followed by participants in a sacrifice. There was a major fight in Pune in 1922 among the Rigvedi and Yajurvedi brahmins over this issue, and this booklet attempts to resolve this issue in its own way. Thanks for assistance. Madhav Deshpande From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 17 02:04:09 2001 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 18:04:09 -0800 Subject: Re. GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066643.23782.698159067717284550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Goswami was used in Bengal as a general title of respect, originally for the wealthy (where "go" means land, rather than cattle, but where both are indicative of material, rather than spiritual riches). >?From there it came to be applied to spiritual leaders. To look for Tamil roots for this usage would likely be futile. Certainly the interpretation "go" = senses, svami = master, therefore Goswami = "one who has mastered the senses" seems to be a very much latter day interpretation. It is certainly not found in the first couple of generations of Gaudiya literature. Jan Brzezinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 16 18:18:58 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 18:18:58 +0000 Subject: nAdasvaram, the wind instrument Message-ID: <161227066628.23782.13395417268919493390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the thread "Musical trees and rivers?", Dr. C. Wedemeyer asked about instruments called vanaspati and nadii. The following are my thoughts concerning only nadi which I believe is the famous wind instrument of South India. I will write about what Vanaspati might mean as a kind of harp in the near future. V. Sundaresan: >Alternatively, is there a textual reason that the word could be nAdi, >derived from nAda, instead of nadI? N. Mohkamsing: >In Skt. musicology the traditional classification of musical instruments, >as promulgated by the NATyashAstra, is as follows: (1) lutes (tata); (2) >flute (su.shira); (3) ghana (cymbals); and (4) avanaddha (drums). TAla and >muraja are representative members of the last two types respectively. That >means that the first two types are assumably also represented by >instruments denoted as "vanaspati-nady-ucchaTaa-". In his latest mail on his question: >"nady" could either be emended to read naadi (and thus be a >wind instrument--perhaps a kind of flute?) A popular reed instrument is called nAdasvaram. This wind instrument's players are the teachers (naTTuvanAr) for BharatanATyam dancers all over the world. Nadasvaram has the word, nADa 'reed'. Dravidian has both naDa/nADa as 'reed'. Like yATu 'goat' > yAdava, nADasvaram is now popularly known as nAdasvaram. Monier-Williams lists: cf. %{nadI}) Mn. MBh. &c. ; = %{naDa} , reed RV. i , 32 , 8; (%{I}) f. see %{nadI4}. Some references on the nAdasvaram wind instrument (not including those in Tamil) which will be useful in understanding nadi/nAdi: a)Nazir Jairazbhoy "A Preliminary Survey of the Oboe in India" , Ethnomusicology, xiv: 375-8 8 (1970) b)Nazir Jairazbhoy, "The South Asian Double-Reed Aerophone Reconsidered" , Ethnomusicology xxiv/1: 147-55 (January 1980) c) Yoshitaka Terada, Multiple interpretations of a charismatic individual: the case of the great Nagasvaram musician, T. N. Rajarattinam Pillai. PhD thesis, 1992, Univ. of Washington, Seattle, 361p. BTW, An inscribed urn containing Aryadeva's ashes have been found near Kanchi. (Will give the ref. later). Did Aryadeva spend some time in South India? Was he born in Sri Lanka? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Jan 16 18:35:22 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 19:35:22 +0100 Subject: "pakSatA" in (Navya-)NyAya Message-ID: <161227066630.23782.7775005766689448494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for passages in NyAya literature which specify the notion of "pakSatA" (i.e. being the logical subject of an inference). Jitendranath Mohanty relates its being investigated in terms of (a) presence or absence of a desire to establish the probandum and (b) presence or absence of certainty regarding the presence of the probandum and adduces the SiddhAntamuktAvalI as textual support ("Reason and Tradition in Indian Thought", Oxford 1992: Clarendon Press, pp.102ff.). What interests me in particular is the idea (according to Mohanty) that inference in some cases takes place WITHOUT uncertainty and WITHOUT the desire to establish the probandum, as for instance when the presence of a raincloud is spontaneously inferred from hearing thunder. I would like to know whether this particular approach to defining "pakSatA" is evidenced in earlier NyAya sources (pre Navya-NyAya, that is), and, in particular, whether there are any passages that provide further details on the notion of such spontaneous inferences. Of course, passages from non-NyAya works would be of interest as well. (If anyone's interested: This query is prompted by DharmakIrti's statements in PramANavArttikasvavRtti 27,15-22). Any hints will be appreciated, -------- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From sanjay26 at IP.ETH.NET Tue Jan 16 14:29:09 2001 From: sanjay26 at IP.ETH.NET (S. Deshpande) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 19:59:09 +0530 Subject: Please suspend membership Message-ID: <161227066622.23782.4198065516902576264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please suspend my membership to the Indology Listserver till Feb 20 as I am away at excavations. Sanjay Deshpande sanjay26 at ip.eth.net From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 17 01:18:35 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 20:18:35 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066636.23782.1996371391952365986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/13/2001 10:55:16 AM Central Standard Time, bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO writes: > > As far as I know, the etymology of kinna:ru (long a), "lyre", and na:ru or > na'ru or nu'a:ru, "musician" is not in any way transparent. The etymology proposed by Dr. Asko Parpola is simple. According to him, kinnara is a compound of Dr. kil + nara. The first portion means "to resound'. > Kinna:ru is > thought to have entered Akkadian from West Semitic, I think. Parpola says: "There are, however, also the following phonetically and semantically very similar words from the Near East, about whose relation to the Indian material Mayrhofer is hesitant (1956, I, 210 "Aber sollte der Anklang...blosser Zufall sein?"): Old Babylonian *kinnArum 'lyre' ... attested in Mari (18th cent. B.C.) and slightly later in Ras Shamra (Ugarit), ..." He adds, "We know for certain that Harappan traders visited and probably even resided for long periods in Mesopotemia and the islands of Failaka and Bahrain in the Persian Gulf, at least from the 24th to the 20th century B.C. (Gadd 1932; Parpola, Parpola, and Brunswig 1977). A Harappan seal (which in its round form agrees with the seals of the Persian Gulf civilization but differs from the native Harappan square seals found in India), inscribed with the Indus script characters, was excavated in 1970 in Bahrain. In the present context it is significant that this seal was associated with a cneiform tablet, dated with the help of orthographic conventions to approximately the 20th century B.C.: the tablet contained three Amorite personal names (Brunswig and Parpola, in press). The Amorites, who in the early second millennium B.C. penetrated Mesopotamia fromthe west in growing numbers, constituted a very considerable ethnic component of the Old "Babylonian kingdom of Mari, where the word kinnArum is first attested. (contd.) Regards S. Palaniappan From sivadasi at EROLS.COM Wed Jan 17 01:27:16 2001 From: sivadasi at EROLS.COM (Katherine K. Brobeck) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 20:27:16 -0500 Subject: TIRTHANKA Message-ID: <161227066637.23782.9856036990988540952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sirs: Is there any text, translated into English, or article, that lists the precise locations of all the Tirthanka listed in The Vana Parva, Mhb. ? So many seem to be still unidentified in the several lists I've seen. Kathie Brobeck From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jan 17 01:34:58 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 20:34:58 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums (contd.) Message-ID: <161227066639.23782.15791104295368971645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From the above evidence it seems possible that all the Near Eastern words, Old Babylonian kinnArum included, actually go back to an Amorite etymon. Yet the word looks decidedly non-Semitic in its structure (Jussi Aro, oral communication). It would seem possible to connect Dravidian kin-nara(m) with kinnArum by assuming that it was, as a cultural word, borrowed by the Amorites from Harappan traders in the entrepots of the Persian Gulf (cf. the later introduction of the instrument and its name from Canaan to Egypt: Helck 1962, 540). This would have taken place in the 20th century B.C., leaving just enough time for the kinnArum to become a thoroughly assimilated Amorite item by the 18th century. The Amorites cannot have reached the Persian Gulf much earlier, and the word was in all probability borrowed just there and not in Mesopotamia, because the word is not found in Sumerian." > There is a > Hurrian derivation, kinnaruhuli, "kinnaru-player", or perhaps > "kinnaru-maker"? attested at Alalah in Syria. Kinnaru is attested from Old > Babylonian times (eighteenth century BC) and later at Ugarit. See Parpola's quote above. > Musicians and singers, too, were highly regarded, as they took part > in all kinds of rituals. There were no "polluted" castes in Near East > societies. Based on my research, the same was true of the Classical Tamil society as well. Due to a cultural discontinuity in the post-CT period caused by religions espousing vegetarianism, an understandable folk etymology was coined, which interpreted the terms referring to the CT musicians and the priests as outcastes! This folk etymology has commanded the allegiance of the Tamil scholars ever since (more than 1500 years). Anthropological findings pertaining to the contemporary society have been retroactively and anachronistically deemed to apply to the society of the CT period. Scholars have failed to take into account the discontinuity in the Tamil value system after the CT period. Regards S. Palaniappan From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Jan 17 01:43:07 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 20:43:07 -0500 Subject: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil In-Reply-To: <3A016880.13797.672790@localhost> Message-ID: <161227066641.23782.119002200168411528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List: Does anyone know of any books that are designed or could be used for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil or the classical literary forms of other Dravidian languages, and that could be used by someone who knows Sanskrit but no Dravidian? P. Ernest From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 17 05:08:06 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 21:08:06 -0800 Subject: Re. GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066645.23782.8907823193001640531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << Goswami was used in Bengal as a general title of respect, originally for the wealthy (where "go" means land, rather than cattle, but where both are indicative of material, rather than spiritual riches)... From there it came to be applied to spiritual leaders. >> Your interesting comments seem to imply that the sanctifier ?go,? in connection to Goswami, functions more or less in the same way that ?Maharaj? does ? as the title meant originally for literal ?kings? was applied to indicate an individual?s perceived spiritual exaltedness ? and became a title for holy men. Earthly sovereignty has long been a metaphor for spiritual ascension in India. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Tue Jan 16 20:54:00 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 01 21:54:00 +0100 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066632.23782.6234507156325475158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, In my first post on this subject there was probably a misunderstanding. I thought somebody (Parpola?) had asserted that Akkadian kinna:ru was attested in the third millennium, and wrote: >Kinnaru is attested from Old Babylonian times (eighteenth century BC) and later at >Ugarit. I do not know if it is attested earlier, perhaps at Ebla? Kinna:ru is not attested until c. 1700 BC. It now appears that what is attested at Ebla in the third millennium BC might be the word for "musician" or "singer", na:ru (II), probably in its Sumerian form, (LU2) NAR. If this word is Dravidian, or related to Dravidian words, it is indeed an early attestation. There are several derivations: na:rtu (II) or nuartu or na'ratu - female musician, Sum. MUNUS.NAR na:ru:tu - profession of musician, musicianship (with Akk. abstract suffix) nargallu - chief musician, Sum. (LU2) NAR.GAL, attested in Old Akkadian A plant name, narinnu, looks suspiciously like a Hurrian nominal derivation in -inni, but might be totally unrelated. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Wed Jan 17 16:45:34 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 08:45:34 -0800 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227066651.23782.1852796459782562183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please suspend my membership to the Indology Listserver till further information as i will be away from my destination. thanks suryaprakashsharma, ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Wed Jan 17 14:26:23 2001 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 09:26:23 -0500 Subject: TIRTHANKA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066647.23782.17941811947644846838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kathie, have you looked at "Geography of the MBh" by B. S. Suryavanshi (Ramanand Vidya Bhawan, 1986), and "Indian Places of Pilgrimage in India" by S.M.Bhardwaj (Munshiram Manoharlal,1999)? On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:27:16 -0500 "Katherine K. Brobeck" wrote: > Dear Sirs: > Is there any text, translated into English, or article, > that lists the precise locations of all the Tirthanka > listed in The Vana Parva, Mhb. ? So many seem to > be still unidentified in the several lists I've seen. > Kathie Brobeck ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 17 18:22:40 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 13:22:40 -0500 Subject: Some questions on Asuras Message-ID: <161227066659.23782.8949524219567206326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Satya Upadhyaya Those were just some of my speculations. Some times I may sound overbearing or oh-so-convincing as I was writing from my long time study (and "practice") of the literature, I don't close out other possibilities. Until we have all pieces of the puzzle in place nothing is final. Best, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 17 15:20:42 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 15:20:42 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066649.23782.13086224918673027883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, N. Ganesan wrote: > Can I be guided here with the parallel passage from > Natyashastram where drums are smeared with some pastes? > > The possibility of the daubing drum membranes and > the izicin2an2 ('drummer') has not been realized > in all these years until now. Chapter six in the Kalpasthana of the Susrutasamhita teaches how to make up a caustic paste (k.saaraagada) and smear it on drums (dundhubhi), banners, and town doorways. Once this paste has been applied, and the drums have been beaten loudly so that everyone can hear, any general poisons affecting the populace will be banished. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Jan 17 20:24:02 2001 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 15:24:02 -0500 Subject: "pakSatA" in (Navya-)NyAya Message-ID: <161227066661.23782.15195074380208391189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indology wrote: > > I am looking for passages in NyAya literature which specify the > notion of "pakSatA" (i.e. being the logical subject of an > inference). Examples of pre-GaGgeza discussions of pakSatA presented in a formal-ontological scheme are Udayana's KusumAJjalI [third stavaka]and MaNikaNTha's nyAyaratna. Depending on the emphasis of your enquiry, pakSatA in its latent form can be traced to the works of Jayanta BhaTTa [nyAyamaJjarI, anumAna section]JJAnazrImitra, RantakIrti, RatnAkarazAnti and others. In later navyanyAya, pakSatA has been discussed and commented upon by RaghunAtha, JagadIza and GadAdhara. The commenterial tradition continues to kAlizaGkara siddhAntavAgIza [kroDapatrasamgraha] and beyond. > Jitendranath Mohanty relates its being investigated in > terms of (a) presence or absence of a desire to establish the > probandum and (b) presence or absence of certainty regarding the > presence of the probandum and adduces the SiddhAntamuktAvalI as > textual support ("Reason and Tradition in Indian Thought", Oxford > 1992: Clarendon Press, pp.102ff.). > What interests me in particular is the idea (according to Mohanty) > that inference in some cases takes place WITHOUT uncertainty and > WITHOUT the desire to establish the probandum, as for instance when > the presence of a raincloud is spontaneously inferred from hearing > thunder. > The point of your interest in pakSatA and the example you quote from Mohanty [as discussed in siddhAntamuktAvalI] seem to me to be different from the Navya variety of pakSatA. This concept or notion of pakSatA is an approximation of the old nyAya category of sAmAnyatodRSTa anumAna. I do not have the Mohanty book with me, so cannot comment further on this point. Prof. Mohanty is knowledgeable, so I need to know the context in which he uses the siddhAntamuktAvalI to be able to talk about it. But I would like to offer a general caution regarding siddhAntamuktAvalI used as an example of NavyanyAya. This work is a revisionist approach to the Navya variety of nyAya [claasical nyAya updated with navya terminologies,and navyanyAya understood according to the concepts of classical nyAya]. Best wishes, Jogesh Panda __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 17 21:18:27 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 16:18:27 -0500 Subject: SV: Apology Message-ID: <161227066665.23782.14476681692752668382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >Hardly! It is the Norwegian word for "form" (from Greek skheema). I >think >it is limited how much well-being you can get from filling out >forms! :-) If the word skheema in "Greek" means form, it becomes schema in "geek"! In computer jargon schema is a word for a database structure or form. Have fun Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 17 16:47:04 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 16:47:04 +0000 Subject: GosvAmi Message-ID: <161227066654.23782.16378711739291607719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan's original question: >In Bengali, when is the name gosAyi first attested? >Approximately like 16th century?? >Today, we hear both gosvAmi and gosAi. The intent of this query was to find out when does sAi/ii, gosAii is first used in North India. It appears 15-16th centuries is a good estimate. Hence, sAyaNa, a KannaDiga name of the 13-14th centuries need not have saaii from gosaaii, a Northern form of some centuries late. Ven. Tantra wrote: >Or was someone not implying a Tamil origin? Never mind. At least it's not me who implied Tamil origin for gosvAmi. Ven. Tantra wrote: >Of course, Goswami would be found in Tamil >literature, because Tamil has adopted countless >Sanskrit words in a country where everything?s as old >as the hills. Goswami is not found in early Vaishnava literature of Tamil. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Jan 17 22:01:03 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 17:01:03 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066669.23782.8553870371051944001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The possibility of the daubing drum membranes and > the izicin2an2 ('drummer') has not been realized > in all these years until now. Chapter six in the Kalpasthana of the Susrutasamhita teaches how to make up a caustic paste (k.saaraagada) and smear it on drums (dundhubhi), banners, and town doorways. Once this paste has been applied, and the drums have been beaten loudly so that everyone can hear, any general poisons affecting the populace will be banished. The pakhawaj is always played by smearing the bass drum head with flour paste just like the mridangam. double headed drums are also depicted in harappa. http://www.tabla.com/tablahs1.html#archeology From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Jan 17 22:05:52 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 17:05:52 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066671.23782.1187426588360596419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pakhawaj is always played by smearing the bass drum head with flour paste just like the mridangam. double headed drums are also depicted in harappa. http://www.tabla.com/tablahs1.html#archeology incidentally the site mentions arched harps depicted in harapa too. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Jan 17 17:50:09 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 17:50:09 +0000 Subject: Apology Message-ID: <161227066656.23782.10580092611111532779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:52:26 +0800, Ruth Laila Schmidt wrote: >I apologize for the private message I inadvertently sent to Indology. > >Best regards, > >Ruth Schmidt I was intrigued by the title Skjema. Is it related to Kshema in Skr for well-being? From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jan 17 19:23:06 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 20:23:06 +0100 Subject: SV: Apology Message-ID: <161227066663.23782.15291753474225246036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan [SMTP:vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK] skrev 17. januar 2001 18:50: > I was intrigued by the title Skjema. Is it related to Kshema in Skr for > well-being? Hardly! It is the Norwegian word for "form" (from Greek skheema). I think it is limited how much well-being you can get from filling out forms! :-) Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Jan 17 21:58:43 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 22:58:43 +0100 Subject: "pakSatA" in (Navya-)NyAya In-Reply-To: <0B7995CB.2E449359.4D9F4CA0@netscape.net> Message-ID: <161227066666.23782.10708662177788419056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wednesday, January 17, 2001, 9:24:02 PM, Jogesh Panda wrote: JP> Depending on the emphasis of your enquiry, pakSatA in its latent form can be traced to the works of Jayanta BhaTTa [nyAyamaJjarI, anumAna section]JJAnazrImitra, RantakIrti, RatnAkarazAnti and JP> others. Thank you for your helpful reply. I was going over the anumAna section of the NyAyamaJjarI, but could not find discussions of my main point of interest: Whether inference necessarily presupposes uncertainty and/or the desire to establish the probandum. It is possible, of course, that this question is not discussed in connection with the concept of "pakSatA" in such "early" sources (I actually expected to find such discussions under the heading of "anumeya", but with no luck so far) - at any rate, in case I overlooked some important passages in the NyAyamaJjarI, I would be grateful for more concrete suggestions. JP> The point of your interest in pakSatA and the example you quote from Mohanty [as discussed in siddhAntamuktAvalI] seem to me to be different from the Navya variety of pakSatA. This concept or JP> notion of pakSatA is an approximation of the old nyAya category of sAmAnyatodRSTa anumAna. I do not have the Mohanty book with me, so cannot comment further on this point. Prof. Mohanty is JP> knowledgeable, so I need to know the context in which he uses the siddhAntamuktAvalI to be able to talk about it. But I would like to offer a general caution regarding siddhAntamuktAvalI used as JP> an example of NavyanyAya. This work is a revisionist approach to the Navya variety of nyAya [claasical nyAya updated with navya terminologies,and navyanyAya understood according to the concepts JP> of classical nyAya]. Mohanty summarizes the pertinent passages from the siddhAtnamuktAvalI while discussing the psychological dimensions of inferential processes. In particular, he states: "While such is the mental process involved in inferring, there are also specifiable psychological conditions which must be satisfied in order that an inferential process may take place". By "such is the mental process", he refers to the common sequence of (a) cognizing the probans, (b) remembering the inseparable relation between probans and probandum, (c) cognizing the probandum. He then goes on to state that "these conditions have been discussed by the NyAya logicians under the title PakSatA". I.e. answering the question as to when an object is a logical subject of an inference (pakSa), "NyAya logicians want to exclude all those circumstances under which one would not infer." It is precisely because I am hesitant to draw any conclusions from a brief discussion in the siddhAntamuktAvalI that I am looking for earlier discussions. DharmakIrti, for instance, holds that every inference is necessarily preceded by an error regarding the probandum (or by doubt). This claim is defended against an opponent who argues that, when spontaneously inferring fire from smoke, no preceding error is given. I have not so far been able to locate accounts of such "spontaneous" inferences in pre-DharmakIrtian or at least pre-Udayana sources. -------- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Jan 17 22:53:35 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 01 23:53:35 +0100 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066673.23782.15337696699061784932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote (in part): > The etymology proposed by Dr. Asko Parpola is simple. According to him, > kinnara is a compound of Dr. kil + nara. The first portion means "to resound'. Is such a nominal compound possible in a Dravidian language c. 2000 BC? Do we know anything about nominal compounds before IA influence? Is the assimilation supposed to have taken place in Dravidian or Semitic? Parpola: > "We know for certain that Harappan traders visited and probably even resided > for long periods in Mesopotemia and the islands of Failaka and Bahrain in the > Persian Gulf, at least from the 24th to the 20th century B.C. (Gadd 1932; > Parpola, Parpola, and Brunswig 1977). A Harappan seal (which in its round > form agrees with the seals of the Persian Gulf civilization but differs from > the native Harappan square seals found in India), inscribed with the Indus > script characters, was excavated in 1970 in Bahrain. In the present context > it is significant that this seal was associated with a cuneiform tablet, dated > with the help of orthographic conventions to approximately the 20th century > B.C.: the tablet contained three Amorite personal names (Brunswig and > Parpola, in press). The Amorites, who in the early second millennium B.C. > penetrated Mesopotamia from the west in growing numbers, constituted a very > considerable ethnic component of the Old "Babylonian kingdom of Mari, where > the word kinnArum is first attested. I have no objections; this sounds reasonable. But there was also a contact across the Iranian plateau from the fourth millennium, especially connected with the lapis lazuli trade. This connection might not have broken off in the 20th century. Parpola: >From the above evidence it seems possible that all the Near Eastern words, Old Babylonian kinnArum included, actually go back to an Amorite etymon. Yet the word looks decidedly non-Semitic in its structure... Agreed, this word cannot be Semitic. Parpola: > It would seem possible to connect Dravidian kin-nara(m) with kinnArum by assuming that it was, as a cultural word, borrowed by the Amorites from Harappan traders in the entrepots of the Persian Gulf (cf. the later introduction of the instrument and its name from Canaan to Egypt: Helck 1962, 540). This would have taken place in the 20th century B.C., leaving just enough time for the kinnArum to become a thoroughly assimilated Amorite item by the 18th century. The Amorites cannot have reached the Persian Gulf much earlier, and the word was in all probability borrowed just there and not in Mesopotamia, because the word is not found in Sumerian." It is true that the word is not attested in Sumerian, but this does not mean that it could not have been Sumerian. *Kinnari would equally have been possible in Hurrian, where it would denote "something that is repeatedly kinn-ing". Since we do not know the meaning of the root kinn-, it is useless to speculate, but I find a Hurrian etymology very tempting, since the addition of -ari to a root is one of the most common ways of making Hurrian nouns. A few examples: ellari - sheep ha$ari - oil herari - upper arm hiari - gold hurmari - an animal pedari - ox tiari - spindle kakkari - a kind of cake purulzari - a temple functionary Neither in Hurrian nor in Dravidian the -a- would be long. The lenghtening of this vowel may be an analogy from na:ru, "musician, singer", something that happened in the course of adapting the word to a Semitic language. It is worth noting that the Greek vowels in kinura are short, and that there are several derivations in Greek: kinuros - wailing kinu:romai - lament, bewail Kinuras - a mythical king, a priest of Aphrodite in Cyprus, originally from Byblos Also, we should note that the Greek word kinara means "artichoke". So, finding etymologies is a tricky business! By the way, among the hundreds of Hurrian names known from Mari, four were female musicians/singers, perhaps kinna:ru players? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Jan 17 23:05:05 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 01 00:05:05 +0100 Subject: SV: Apology Message-ID: <161227066676.23782.6960350336954110847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But it might be easier to recognize the Norwegian word samband (connection)! Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: Bhadraiah Mallampalli > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: SV: Apology > Date: 17. januar 2001 22:18 > > >From: Lars Martin Fosse > > >Hardly! It is the Norwegian word for "form" (from Greek skheema). I >think > >it is limited how much well-being you can get from filling out >forms! :-) > > If the word skheema in "Greek" means form, it becomes schema in "geek"! In > computer jargon schema is a word for a database structure or form. > > Have fun > Bhadraiah > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 18 22:28:11 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 01 17:28:11 -0500 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066680.23782.4138100960177896106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Ian Goddard >http://users.erols.com/igoddard/yoga.htm Thanks for the URL. I think it is a good beginning. >Originating in India in the 5th century AD, the system of numeration >used >throughout the world... What was discovered in 5AD? I believe brAhmaNas already knew number systems based 10 (the count of stomas, syllables of meters etc). Relevance to Indology: Technology and mathematics are going to invade every subject and Indology is no exception. I suppose we can discuss the outlines and take the details to another forum. Relativity as a concept is known since eternity (vyAvahArika satya etc). The process of discovery itself is a way to take the mind from relative existence to the higher existence, if not absolute. Galileo proved that the statement "Every thing rotates around the earth" is only a relative truth. Einstien used relativity to remove the most important piece of illogic namely "action at a distance", so the concept became popular with him. Your statement that people in general ignore the basic truths and seek after higher truths is quite valid (which itself has philosophical implications); and your articles on different topics like space, time and motion do seem to represent yogic way of thinking. Infact the mind/body actually works (even for a Socrates) according to those rules of finding absolute truth as you explained, but "we" deviate from the rules thinking something else is the truth. As a result we knowingly or unknowingly avoid the meditations, but they seem to keep happening due to natural physical laws. Inspite of the striking similarity with yoga, I am sorry to say this is not necessarily Indology, because all this can be developed under any other banner, even though they may not come to the same conclusions such as yoga. Number systems based on 10 are Indian, but your hypotheses can be proved using Roman numerals also! (Romans sure knew absolute zero, which is all you need to determine the whole truth!) I do not know western philosophical systems, but back to Indology, in my opinion philosophers since Buddha's time did not go beyond the basics and ignored the complexities which their Vedic ancestors knew in much greater depth; and the discourse was limited to space, time, causation, lower self and higher self. I agree this was important, but as gauDapAda used to say we are 'capable of knowing' (much higher). Now going by the symmetry of these models, it should all work like a Euclidian space, where every combination of numbers must be possible. Unfortunately that is not the case. If you add variables like "limited" and unlimited", "knowing" and "forgettting", "front" and "back", "up" and "down", "you " and "me", "left" and "right" and so on, the complicatons will escalate in such a way that an organism has to spend all its life only to decide how to life a tea cup. There are favorite short cuts, and that is what Vedic brAhmaNAs are all about (IMO). Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Jan 18 20:39:37 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 01 20:39:37 +0000 Subject: SV: Apology Message-ID: <161227066678.23782.16334178543290145426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:05:05 +0100, Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: >But it might be easier to recognize the Norwegian word samband >(connection)! > >Bjarte Kaldhol Yes. Cognate with 'bandhu' in Sanskrit >> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >> >> >Hardly! It is the Norwegian word for "form" (from Greek skheema). I >>think >> >it is limited how much well-being you can get from filling out >forms! >:-) On the other hand, you will get some well-being by being in top form. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 19 15:07:44 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 07:07:44 -0800 Subject: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil Message-ID: <161227066689.23782.15652458167817286800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Phillip Ernest wrote: >Does anyone know of any books that are designed or could be used for >self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil or the classical literary >forms of other Dravidian languages, and that could be used by someone who >knows Sanskrit but no Dravidian? I would also like to hear about good treatments of historical grammars of literary Dravidian languages like Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam. If you are in Toronto which has 200,000+ Tamils living, it should be easy to find Tamil teachers at different levels. Nowadays multimedia presentaions are available. For example, UPenn site has one Tamil program. http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/plc/tamilweb/tamil.html For classical Tamil grammar, consult: V. S. Rajam, A reference grammar of classical Tamil poetry, American Philosophical Society, 1992. 1081 p. For learning Tamil, Dr. Ganesan listed some books in 1997, http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9707&L=indology&P=R358 Best wishes, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Jan 19 14:41:13 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 09:41:13 -0500 Subject: GItA verse XVI-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066686.23782.6602668620328425487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Narayan R.Joshi" has written as follows: >To the best of my knowledge, the verse 8 of Chapter16 of GItA describes the >view of people of AasurI category. The words Daiva and Aasura are >adjectives to the various people. Aasura people think that this world is >created without any reason and it is without the God, the creator and hence >only use of this world is enjoyment. This is the view of Aasura people >only , not of DaivI people. Among people all are included, such as Sura, >Asura, Deva, Daitya, DAnava,Manu.sya,Gandharva, Kinnara,Yaksha, RAkshasa, >NAga, Sarpa,VAnara, SuparNa etc. Devotee PralhAda belonged to Asura people >but he was of DaivI category because he was devotee of NArAyaNA. The same >is true of Rakshasa Bibhi.saNa, brother of RAvaNa.Thanks. Gita is not unique in labeling nonbelievers with the most obnoxious adjectives and epithets and therefore betrays its own human origin. It is easy to see that Deva and Asurs were two different sects who hated the guts of each other just like communists and capitalists of this day. To the followers of Asur or Ahur , the word Dev or Devil is as repugnant as Asur is to the followers of the Dev. You cannot take the label given by one to its enemy to define the true nature of the enemy. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Happiness isn't something you experience; it's something you remember. ... Oscar Levant From ghezziem at TIN.IT Fri Jan 19 10:31:52 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 10:31:52 +0000 Subject: R: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil Message-ID: <161227066682.23782.13763748635070787290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest colleague, You can try to find both books and sites in the Web Page of the Department of Oriental Studies of Roma's University (Italy), written both in Italian and in English: http://pop.let.uniroma1.it/DSO/links/dsolink.htm http://pop.let.uniroma1.it/DSO/links/dsosrch.hts (search engines). About Your studies, I may contact some Italian Professors and ask to them an advice (I am too a sanskritist). If You want, You can write directly to me. Sorry, it is a little help! Love, Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Phillip Ernest >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil >Data: Mer, 17 gen 2001 1:43 > > Dear List: > > Does anyone know of any books that are designed or could be used for > self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil or the classical literary > forms of other Dravidian languages, and that could be used by someone who > knows Sanskrit but no Dravidian? > > P. Ernest From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 19 17:23:17 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 12:23:17 -0500 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066697.23782.12735250330277131330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Correction: >an organism has to spend all its life only to decide how to life a >tea >cup. Please read as "to lift a tea cup." I said Prof Goddard's work gives the look of yoga. It also gives the feel of yoga because (IMO) it is yoga. It is Prof Goddard's privilege to explain this item, but it is just too tempting not to continue. This note is going to be a bit longer than I want it to be, because I have to explain the underlying terminology also. It will be the last one. When I see an object "A" moving one way relative to another object it is half the truth. When I also see the object "B" moving back relative to object "A" it is the other part of the truth. When I see both at the same time I feel a little dizzy sensation, which is no other than vyAna. I am not good at physiological psychology but they explain this dizziness as relaetd to some kind of sense of balance in optical nervous system which helps in navigation. Basically vyAna has a physical equivalent in all parts of the body and sense organs, because it "vyApt" - spread out. Well, if one goes with a preconceived intention of looking for vyAna, one may not always find it because the preconceived intention itself is the "known" somatic stimulus called agni. And this "known" is only a part of the truth, and one has to look for the other part to get to vyAna. Looking for the other part is nowhere but oneself and this leads to "not this, not this" etc. Now the "short cut" that I mentioned earlier is just another name for the "path of least resistance". The path of most resistance is agni, because being the known material object it resists any attempts to destroy it. As of today we have two ways to arriving at the path of least resistance. Tensor analysis approach of relativity, and fuzzy logic approach. Tensor analysis: The foundations laid by Prof Goddard's in this field help us to define similar mechanism of finding absolute truth for limited and unlimited (details to be worked out). Once we have limited and unlimited, known and unknown are a piece of cake. Remember known, unknown etc are multi-dimensional data structures which include not only space and time, but also neuro-fuzzy linguistic values of nearby or faraway space-time structures (to be explained in next paragraph). Whatever is within the limited space is known, and whatever is outside of it is unknown. The next step will be to define indra, bRhaspati as tensors. If bRhaspati is the "known" controlled by the "unknown", it is a covariant tensor differentiation (a change in known divided by a change in unknown). But change in one variable divided by change in another itself presupposes a cause-effect relationship! Basically Einstein had replaced the cause-effect relationship of "action at a distance" to an infinitesimal chain at tensor level. There is a cause-effect chain as long as you see duality. Now the path of least resistance is derived by interaction of the tensors (indra etc) as these tensors attempt to find the absolute truth. Another way of looking at the picture is using neuro-fuzzy technology. The relativity approach is only good for space-time continuums, but when "hard" objects interact or collide we have a different situation. I speak to a person, I don't speak to a space-time continuum. I eat a piece of bread, again not a space-time. Then I also give names to these objects using whatever language I know. I can not give a "perfect" name to any object because there is not always enough time for me to find a perfect name. If I have to cross a road I judge the distance as "near" or "far" and take a quick decision instead of attempting to measure in yards, feet and inches. This is called fuzzy linguistics, which is another name for a set of "hard" objects, but the object also "know" some "rules" that help them in interacting in such a way as to arrive at a path of least resistance. There are also times when we do not perceive any "hard objects", and that is when the system is taking care of itself (driving involuntarily on a well known route), and this is the neuro part of it. References in a subsequent mail if any one is interested. Thanks for the attention Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Jan 19 13:04:13 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 13:04:13 +0000 Subject: GItA verse XVI-8 Message-ID: <161227066684.23782.7180840947460108484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To the best of my knowledge, the verse 8 of Chapter16 of GItA describes the view of people of AasurI category. The words Daiva and Aasura are adjectives to the various people. Aasura people think that this world is created without any reason and it is without the God, the creator and hence only use of this world is enjoyment. This is the view of Aasura people only , not of DaivI people. Among people all are included, such as Sura, Asura, Deva, Daitya, DAnava,Manu.sya,Gandharva, Kinnara,Yaksha, RAkshasa, NAga, Sarpa,VAnara, SuparNa etc. Devotee PralhAda belonged to Asura people but he was of DaivI category because he was devotee of NArAyaNA. The same is true of Rakshasa Bibhi.saNa, brother of RAvaNa.Thanks. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Jan 19 18:33:50 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 13:33:50 -0500 Subject: dev- / Devil In-Reply-To: <3A687B11.6853A107@anthosimprint.com> Message-ID: <161227066708.23782.16939130336793686522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gunthard Mueller has written as follows: >"Devil" is not related to dev-. Devil is ultimately a derivative of Ancient Greek di?bolos, >an agent noun of diab?llein (different ablaut) "to throw around, mislead, confuse". >The original meaning is the "misleader, confuser". (di? "through/around", b?llein "to >throw", related to English/German ball/Ball). >Di?bolos is used as a synonym of Satan in the Greek Christian tradition, from where >it reached Latin (as diabolus), with the same meaning. Legalese and proverbial advocatus >diaboli "devil's advocate". The Latin form -- and concept... -- entered most European >languages, e.g. Ital. diabolo, Engl. devil, German Teufel, etc. I am not sure whether Greek or Latin derivation have any mention of Asur or Ahur too and the two concepts may be unrelated. I was thinking about the mid eastern tradition where Asur or Ahur was worshiped. In Arabian Nights and other folklore , "dev" is considered an evil spirit as synonym for Jinn. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Use your own judgement; then do as I say. From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Fri Jan 19 18:57:47 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 13:57:47 -0500 Subject: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil In-Reply-To: <20010119150744.1598.qmail@web314.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066711.23782.13847667506483325126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you for your advice; I'll check these out. It's true that Toronto has a huge South Asian population-- the largest, I think, of any city outside of the Subcontinent. And yet no Dravidian language is taught at the University of Toronto, and our once-great Sanskrit department is now embodied in a single professor. I shall have to teach myself Tamil from books, or try to overcome my social ineptitude and look about for living instructors. P From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 19 19:21:06 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 14:21:06 -0500 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066712.23782.8589875260414142721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Sundaresan IN my opinion the six systems of thought can only handle static systems. In other words they work on snapshots of reality at different times, comparing one snapshot to another, but how do we "move" from one snapshot to another? Even with snake and rope, it is said that when the torch is lighted one can figure out what is what; but who will light the torch for us and how? A dynamic system does not need a cause for creation or destruction because it knows where it is going. If this is not indology then other things are much less of Indology. I know it is a hard sell, so I resign. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Jan 19 20:21:17 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 15:21:17 -0500 Subject: dev- / Devil Message-ID: <161227066714.23782.3549329365408390074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"Devil" is not related to dev-. Devil is ultimately a derivative of Ancient Greek di?bolos, >an agent noun of diab?llein (different ablaut) "to throw around, mislead, confuse". (di? "through/around", b?llein "to >throw", related to English/German ball/Ball). both roots have the same meaning? Is there a connection between dev-devatA and diety. With the advent of christianity was there any demonization of pagan greek gods? From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Jan 19 16:12:26 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 16:12:26 +0000 Subject: FWD A request for 20th century Tamil songs Message-ID: <161227066691.23782.7800245339284120949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:18:25 -0800 From: Peter Schalk Subject: request - Peter Schalk Dear friends, I read and heard about songs in Tamil from the beginning of the 20th century in which Ilam is praised. I am interested about these songs for a publication. I am not speaking about Tamililam, but about Ilam. It refers to the island as a whole. If you know such a song and where and when it was sung please contact me by email, fax or phone (see below). If you can write down the text in Tamil in Tamil script, I would be grateful. If you know somebody who knows, please contact that person. If you want to remain anonymous, tell me. Here I give the first reference to the word ilam in history. The earliest now available reference to the word ilam is in a Tamil inscription from about the 1st -2nd century AD. It was found in Tirupparankunram in present Tamilnadu. The Tamil script and its predecessor Vatteluttu, was not yet in use. The script was Pirami (Brahmi) that was also used in Northern India and in the island, but adopted to Dravidian languages. This special Pirami is also called Dravidi by some Western scholars in the tradition of Georg B?hler. Some South Indian scholars use the label Tamili. Some say Southern Brahmi to contrast it with Northern or Asokan Brahmi. The first line of the inscription which is written on a stone-bed, runs: erukatur ilakutumpikan polalaiyan "Polalaiyan, [resident of] Erukatur, the husbandman [ householder] from Ilam." The word for ilam is written as ila with short i and the retroflex approximant l. I have amended it to ilam. Short i stands also for long i like short u stands for long u in -ur in Erukatur. My amending does not break any convention. The donor of the inscription is evidently a householder from Ilam, but residing in Erukatur. Ilam refers here to the island as a whole. One important point is that this toponym is a little older than cinkalam. The implications you can imagine yourself. Regards Peter Schalk R?dbetsgatan 17 754 49 Uppsala Sweden Phones: +46 18 252682, +46 70 4947669 (mobile). Fax: +46 18 241786 From youmar at YAHOO.IT Fri Jan 19 16:24:04 2001 From: youmar at YAHOO.IT (youri martini) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 17:24:04 +0100 Subject: maps Message-ID: <161227066693.23782.14318258865292929560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do you Know Antique Maps of India sites? ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From youmar at YAHOO.IT Fri Jan 19 16:39:52 2001 From: youmar at YAHOO.IT (youri martini) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 17:39:52 +0100 Subject: pictures Message-ID: <161227066695.23782.9133280098682367291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do You know mughals emperors pictures sites? ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 19 17:41:16 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 17:41:16 +0000 Subject: The meaning of Polal- in Tamil inscription Message-ID: <161227066701.23782.18116580192646586249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Schalk, Just saw your mail forwarded to the Indology list. Question 1: Is the "polal" in Polalaiyan in the early inscription connected with the word, "po_lil" (flower garden-pond)? We know in many instances the travelling merchant guilds built and paid for the maintenance the "po_lil" gardens. Usually Trade was divided into 5 departments among these merchants. Their camps were called "aim po_lil" (= 5 po_lil). There are KannaDa and Tamil inscriptions describing the "po_lil" of the merchant guilds. The famous town recording the merchant guild inscription is the aihoLe inscription in Karnataka. AihoLe has another name ayyavoLe (< ayyapoLe) where -v- < -p- change has occured. Po_lilvAycci is situated right on the trade route between Central Kerala and TN, And new Merchant Guild 500's inscriptions are found near Tiruchy. Hence, is it possible Po_lalaiyan is a Merchant from I_lam? Question 2: What does I_lam mean? Tamil litetature records it as toddy and gold. Was there a letter "c" as the first letter I_lam/cI_lam? Does I_lam mean "date palm tree"? Note also Ikkam/Iccam etc. denote 'date palm' tree. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------------- From: Peter Schalk Dear friends, [...] Here I give the first reference to the word ilam in history. The earliest now available reference to the word ilam is in a Tamil inscription from about the 1st -2nd century AD. It was found in Tirupparankunram in present Tamilnadu. The Tamil script and its predecessor Vatteluttu, was not yet in use. The script was Pirami (Brahmi) that was also used in Northern India and in the island, but adopted to Dravidian languages. This special Pirami is also called Dravidi by some Western scholars in the tradition of Georg B?hler. Some South Indian scholars use the label Tamili. Some say Southern Brahmi to contrast it with Northern or Asokan Brahmi. The first line of the inscription which is written on a stone-bed, runs: erukatur ilakutumpikan polalaiyan "Polalaiyan, [resident of] Erukatur, the husbandman [ householder] from Ilam." The word for ilam is written as ila with short i and the retroflex approximant l. I have amended it to ilam. Short i stands also for long i like short u stands for long u in -ur in Erukatur. My amending does not break any convention. The donor of the inscription is evidently a householder from Ilam, but residing in Erukatur. Ilam refers here to the island as a whole. One important point is that this toponym is a little older than cinkalam. The implications you can imagine yourself. Regards Peter Schalk R?dbetsgatan 17 754 49 Uppsala Sweden Phones: +46 18 252682, +46 70 4947669 (mobile). Fax: +46 18 241786 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Jan 19 17:48:10 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 17:48:10 +0000 Subject: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil Message-ID: <161227066705.23782.1720481288431126445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > For classical Tamil grammar, consult: > V. S. Rajam, A reference grammar of classical Tamil poetry, > American Philosophical Society, 1992. 1081 p. The problem with this book, valuable though it may be in other respects, is that it is not designed for self-tuition nor does it contain all that one might need to learn the language successfully. I also expressed an interest in learning classical Tamil early last year on the list and, combined with my own independent investigations, I have the distinct impression that classical Tamil is very poorly served for learning purposes. This I find extremely surprising given the obvious importance of Tamil studies as we learn on a weekly, if not daily basis, on this list. The end result has been that I have given up the idea and decided to concentrate on other better served languages Books that deal with modern Tamil do not seem to be much help since, as far as I understand, the modern grammar is considerably different to the classical. When I began learning classical Mongolian several years ago, it was not difficult to find at least four suitable books despite the fact that one might assume classical Mongolian has a rather more restricted appeal than classical Tamil. Perhaps one of the Tamil experts might like to fill the gap and consider creating such a book for independent study ? I am sure that they would find a good market for it :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 19 18:29:31 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 18:29:31 +0000 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066707.23782.3648121412905299499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah gAru, this tying together of relativity theory, yoga, via negativa approach of "neti, neti", yajna, computer technology, prANa-s, anna and attA, etc. seems like a lot of arthavAda. To some it would surely look like anarthavAda. You keep mentioning pictures and puzzles, and about getting various pieces from all over the place, with the hope that one can "get" all the pieces and "complete" it, after which one can be sure about it. Some of us lesser mortals would like to know if you could clarify what this "it" is, that one is supposed to get, eventually. Will we ever get "it", or are we always condemned to only asymptotically approaching it, whatever that "it" may be? Is it a delightfully crazy thing like Zaphod Beeblebrox's quest? But why on earth (or heaven) should all this be called Indology? One Indian's unique outlook on life perhaps, but ... Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Fri Jan 19 17:36:17 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 18:36:17 +0100 Subject: dev- / Devil Message-ID: <161227066699.23782.18054703040769784458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Devil" is not related to dev-. Devil is ultimately a derivative of Ancient Greek di?bolos, an agent noun of diab?llein (different ablaut) "to throw around, mislead, confuse". The original meaning is the "misleader, confuser". (di? "through/around", b?llein "to throw", related to English/German ball/Ball). Di?bolos is used as a synonym of Satan in the Greek Christian tradition, from where it reached Latin (as diabolus), with the same meaning. Legalese and proverbial advocatus diaboli "devil's advocate". The Latin form -- and concept... -- entered most European languages, e.g. Ital. diabolo, Engl. devil, German Teufel, etc. Regards, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com "Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic" wrote: > "Narayan R.Joshi" has written as follows: > > >To the best of my knowledge, the verse 8 of Chapter16 of GItA describes the > >view of people of AasurI category. The words Daiva and Aasura are > >adjectives to the various people. Aasura people think that this world is > >created without any reason and it is without the God, the creator and hence > >only use of this world is enjoyment. This is the view of Aasura people > >only , not of DaivI people. Among people all are included, such as Sura, > >Asura, Deva, Daitya, DAnava,Manu.sya,Gandharva, Kinnara,Yaksha, RAkshasa, > >NAga, Sarpa,VAnara, SuparNa etc. Devotee PralhAda belonged to Asura people > >but he was of DaivI category because he was devotee of NArAyaNA. The same > >is true of Rakshasa Bibhi.saNa, brother of RAvaNa.Thanks. > Gita is not unique in labeling nonbelievers with the most obnoxious > adjectives and epithets and therefore betrays its own human origin. > > It is easy to see that Deva and Asurs were two different sects who hated the > guts of each other just like communists and capitalists of this day. To the > followers of Asur or Ahur , the word Dev or Devil is as repugnant as Asur is > to the followers of the Dev. > > You cannot take the label given by one to its enemy to define the true > nature of the enemy. > > Have a peaceful and joyous day. > Aditya Mishra > Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org > Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya > ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 > Random thought of the day: > Happiness isn't something you experience; it's something you remember. ... Oscar Levant From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Fri Jan 19 17:40:35 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 18:40:35 +0100 Subject: dev- / Devil Message-ID: <161227066703.23782.3585035374006145054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, typo in my message from a second ago. Ital. diavolo, not diabolo. Also, I should mention a theory according to which the -v- is due to secondary borrowing from Byzantine Greek (-b- pronounced -v-). Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Gunthard Mueller wrote: > "Devil" is not related to dev-. Devil is ultimately a derivative of Ancient Greek di?bolos, > an agent noun of diab?llein (different ablaut) "to throw around, mislead, confuse". > The original meaning is the "misleader, confuser". (di? "through/around", b?llein "to > throw", related to English/German ball/Ball). > Di?bolos is used as a synonym of Satan in the Greek Christian tradition, from where > it reached Latin (as diabolus), with the same meaning. Legalese and proverbial advocatus > diaboli "devil's advocate". The Latin form -- and concept... -- entered most European > languages, e.g. Ital. diabolo, Engl. devil, German Teufel, etc. > > Regards, > Gunthard > > gm at e-ternals.com > > "Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic" wrote: > > > "Narayan R.Joshi" has written as follows: > > > > >To the best of my knowledge, the verse 8 of Chapter16 of GItA describes the > > >view of people of AasurI category. The words Daiva and Aasura are > > >adjectives to the various people. Aasura people think that this world is > > >created without any reason and it is without the God, the creator and hence > > >only use of this world is enjoyment. This is the view of Aasura people > > >only , not of DaivI people. Among people all are included, such as Sura, > > >Asura, Deva, Daitya, DAnava,Manu.sya,Gandharva, Kinnara,Yaksha, RAkshasa, > > >NAga, Sarpa,VAnara, SuparNa etc. Devotee PralhAda belonged to Asura people > > >but he was of DaivI category because he was devotee of NArAyaNA. The same > > >is true of Rakshasa Bibhi.saNa, brother of RAvaNa.Thanks. > > Gita is not unique in labeling nonbelievers with the most obnoxious > > adjectives and epithets and therefore betrays its own human origin. > > > > It is easy to see that Deva and Asurs were two different sects who hated the > > guts of each other just like communists and capitalists of this day. To the > > followers of Asur or Ahur , the word Dev or Devil is as repugnant as Asur is > > to the followers of the Dev. > > > > You cannot take the label given by one to its enemy to define the true > > nature of the enemy. > > > > Have a peaceful and joyous day. > > Aditya Mishra > > Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org > > Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya > > ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 > > Random thought of the day: > > Happiness isn't something you experience; it's something you remember. ... Oscar Levant From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Sat Jan 20 01:25:57 2001 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 19:25:57 -0600 Subject: Tibetan names (for citation) Message-ID: <161227066720.23782.3577488510277400245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Colleagues and friends, I need to know the proper forms for citing some Tibetan authors. The five names are below, followed in some cases by (the same?) names in square brackets as listed on WorldCat. (Do Tibetologists prefer hyphens?) Sa-skya PaN chen (PaNDita) kun dga' rgyal mtshan [Sa-skya Pandi-ta Kun-dga'-rgyal-mtshan (1182-1251)] sNar thang lo tsA ba dGe 'dun dpal [Dge-'dun-dpal, Snar-than lo-tsa-ba] dPang lo tsA ba Blo gros brtan pa [Blo-gros-brtan-pa, Sne-than-pa] Rin-spuns-pa Nag-dban-'jig-rten-dban-phyug-grags-pa [Rin-spuns Nag-dban-jigs-grags kyis brtsams] Si-tu Pan-chen Chos-kyi-'byun-gnas. (1699-1774) Being unable to read Tibetan, I can't distinguish titles from names, nor do I know of the conventions which Tibetologists use in listing such names. Further, the entries below list two works (commentaries on Dandin's Kavyadarsa) which have nearly the same title. I have alphabetized texts by title according to the usual traditional alphabetical order. Is the following order correct? Snyan ngag Me long gi grel pa Dbyangs can ngag gi rol mtsho: a commentary on Dandin's Kavyadarsha. author: Bstan-'dzin-chos-kyi-ni-ma, Khams-sprul IV (1730-1779) [Tashijong, 1969] Snyan ngag me long gi grel pa Dbyangs can rol mtsho: a commentary on Dandin's Kavyadarsha. author: Mi-pham-rgya-mtsho, 'Jam-mgon 'Ju, (1846-1912) [New Delhi: 1969] The former work is described on WorldCat as: "by the Fourth Khams-sprul Bstan-dzin-chos-kyi-nyi-ma; together with his Lha Chen Po Khyab Jug Gi Jug Pa Bcui Gtam Rgya Bal Mkhas Pai Zhal Rgyun, a poetic rendering of the story of the ten avatars of Vishnu." (But this would be something quite different than the subtitle indicates: a com. on Dandin's KA.) How do the names given in the WorldCat description relate to the one given as "author" i.e., Mi-pham-rgya-mtsho? Any help would be greatly appreciated. best wishes, Tim Cahill From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 19 20:36:45 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 01 20:36:45 +0000 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066716.23782.622763460920137910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >IN my opinion the six systems of thought can only handle static systems. In There are more than six systems of thought, but the "standard" six darzanas are by no means static. >dynamic system does not need a cause for creation or destruction because it >knows where it is going. If this is not indology then other things are much >less of Indology. I know it is a hard sell, so I resign. My intention is not to offend or to force you to "resign". However, it seems to me that nothing much useful comes out of conflating philosophical views of ultimate reality with a restricted set of disciplines that may be called Indology. Best regards, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Jan 20 05:54:37 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 00:54:37 -0500 Subject: dev- / Devil In-Reply-To: <200101191843.NAA09672@bc.seflin.org> Message-ID: <161227066726.23782.13600374308369884939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen Satkurunathan has written as follows: >Dear Aditya > >Arabian Nights has Basra as its center, a region which was Arabised after >Islamic conquest but originally Iranian. In Avestan Iran Deivo were the bad >gods and Asuras were the good ones, a reversal of role compared to Indo- >Aryans. Many speculate that had to do with some ancient conflicts between >Iranian and Indian branch of the once very closely related Aryan people. >Because using Indo-European linguitics Dev is what everybody else >maintained as God except the Iranians. Hence the Iranians deliberately >changed the order of hierachy under intense conflict with their neibhours >(in Caucus, Central Asia ???) I totally agree with your observation. I was responding originally to the reference made in Chapter 16 of Gita about the practices that were ascribed to Asurs and thereby misrepresenting Asurs. Obviously writer of Gita should have known better if it was the omniscient god. Even with the contemptuous tone of the Chapter 16, there are many admirable qualities of a supposed Asur which can be challenged as being better than what the writer of Gita considered as virtues. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they would like. ... Max Beerbohm From jussi.nyblom at HELSINKI.FI Fri Jan 19 23:18:41 2001 From: jussi.nyblom at HELSINKI.FI (Jussi Nyblom) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 01:18:41 +0200 Subject: Books on historical Malayalam Message-ID: <161227066718.23782.10141702938502836213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > I would also like to hear about good treatments of historical > grammars of literary Dravidian languages like Kannada, Telugu > and Malayalam. As for Malayalam, I have found the following books rather useful: L. V. Ramaswami Ayyar, The evolution of Malayalam Morphology, Ernakulam, 1936 (Reprint: Thrissur: Kerala Sahitya Akademi, 1993 [distributed by National Book Stall, Kottayam]), 185 p. Michail S. Andronov, A Grammar of the Malayalam Language in Historical Treatment (Beitrage zur Kenntnis sudasiatischer Sprachen und Literaturen: 1), Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1996, 212 p. [useful also for beginners specially interested in historical matters as it includes the rudiments of modern Malayalam grammar] Much remains to be done, though. Best regards, Jussi Nyblom, almost graduated in Indology jussi.nyblom at helsinki.fi From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 20 02:38:16 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 02:38:16 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066722.23782.17789801492845818592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Chapter six in the Kalpasthana of the Susrutasamhita teaches how to make up >a caustic paste (k.saaraagada) and smear it on drums (dundhubhi), banners, >and town doorways. Once this paste has been applied, and the drums have >been beaten loudly so that everyone can hear, any general poisons affecting >the populace will be banished. >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list. I was reading about the taNNumai drum in CT. It appears taNNumai is comparable to what we call as mRdangam today. Its name contains the prefix, taN 'cool', and its percussion sound is described soft ('ta_laGku' or 'aritta kural taNNumai'). Usually the bards 'pANar' were gifted with young calfs, and the soft calf-leather was utilized as taNNumai membranes. kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 kaiyatai vaLLuyirt taNNumai pOla - naRRiNai 310:9-10 The suspended leathers of the taNNumai drum were tightly strapped: 'vici uRu taNNumai' - puRam 89:7 The important information that the drums were smeared with a flour paste, and were played with the drummer's hands just as maddaLam or mRdangam is given by patiRRuppattu poem: "..... maak kaN taNNumai kaival iLaiyar kaiyalai a_luGka" - patiRRuppattu 51: 33-34. "maak kaN taNNumai" clearly states the application of flour paste on the drums and one of the earliest literary attestations of this ancient Indian practice mentioned in Natyasastram, Susruta Samhita, and so on. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 20 04:51:37 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 04:51:37 +0000 Subject: maps Message-ID: <161227066724.23782.4589353744737077143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> try these URLs http://www.murrayhudson.com/CountryofIndia.htm http://www.raremaps.de/mapsindia.html http://www.earlymaps.com/asia/india.htm http://www.go.com/WebDir/Travel/Places_to_visit/Asia/By_country/India/Maps_of_India Cheers rohit >From: youri martini >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: maps >Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:24:04 +0100 > >Do you Know Antique Maps of India sites? > >______________________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 20 12:15:11 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 07:15:11 -0500 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066728.23782.15152516829824936447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Sundaresan, >it seems to me that nothing much useful comes out of conflating > >philosophical views of ultimate reality with a restricted set of > >disciplines that may be called Indology. This is the "it" I was trying to explain in all my posts. :-) What I find is that just one cycle which is yajna contains all subjects, all darshanas, all rituals, all gods, in fact everything one can or can not conceive of. This one cycle can be anything, a breathing cycle, or a thought cycle, or a life cycle or whatever. That is the reason why it looks like I am merging various subjects. It is not me who is merging. The khichdi is already out there, I am just reading out its contents as I see. According to this model, yajna as a cycle is not just a circle or ellipse or a piece of a sine wave. It has all the necessary twists and turns, because its components (known, unknown and desirable) get mixed up quickly. These twists and turns are all standard, call it dIkSa, puroruc, prAtaranuvAka, jyotiSToma or whatever names of chapters one can see in any brAhmaNa. People do not see "all" these symbols in "each" cycle because they make approximations for large chunks of the cycle by calling the chunks with a different name. But I repeat "all" the vedic symbols exist in "each" cycle. Giving a different name to a chunk of its contents does not change the nature of yajna. Chemistry is all about protons, neutrons and electrons. So why not talk only in terms of these three? Why talk of elements? Why talk of sugars, aldehydes, toluene's, and so on? We need these higher combinations because it makes sense to denote some combinations with certain names. In the same way yajna is a simple and flexible system of "darshana" consisting of a few handful of basic elements, but at the same time one can make complex combinations to represent real world situations. In spite of its complexity, the cycle also unwinds quickly and disappears into thin air at the slightest hint of advaita. When a child plays with a reel of thread it gets messed up in no time and looks as if it is an insolvable puzzle. We know very well the child was just playing at random and doesn't have enough cunning to purposely entangle the thread to make it useless. Theoretically it is possible to separate out the thread but practically it looks impossible. Same goes for yajna. Scholars are comfortable to talk in the six or more darshanas. But I find that using agni etc is the most natural way to discuss; as much as Sanskrit scholars find it more natural to converse in Sanskrit than English. I am trying to reintroduce this simple, flexible and the most reliable ancient system of darshana, which at the same time meets the specifications of the latest technological or scientific advances, simply because no subject is outside of it - in PRACTICAL TERMS. I mean practical terms, because every one can claim brahman is the background of everything, but practically if any one claims it supports relativity such claims will be ridiculed. The currently available darshanas can not handle this complexity because they became prisoners of their own jargon. Again this is just my view. As all subjects are included in it, the description of "it" (yajna) will never be "complete". It will be complete only when the yajna goes away. If we do not use the yajna paribhASa, I believe we are either losing valuable information or simply we are not in control. If I may repeat, the existing darshanas are also a part of the yajna because they can not be logically out of it. Indologists who are working on such subjects are in minority but even one in 1000 is enough for me. My description may be crude but somebody will improve it in the next 200 years. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 20 20:04:20 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 12:04:20 -0800 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066736.23782.7390142462674326796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Its name contains the prefix, taN 'cool', and its > percussion sound is described soft ('ta_laGku' or > 'aritta > kural taNNumai'). Usually the bards 'pANar' were > gifted > with young calfs, and the soft calf-leather was > utilized as > taNNumai membranes. > > kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 kaiyatai > vaLLuyirt taNNumai pOla - naRRiNai 310:9-10 > Here the reference seems to be to the pANar eating calf meat (valci - food). Does this reference allow the extrapolation that the calf leather was used as membranes? Does "vaLLuyir" refer to the drum or to the sound it produces, although according to commentary "peritAka olikkum taNNumai" (u ve ca pub. p.560). The one clue, imho, this verse gives to the nature of the taNNumai is that it was hollow ("uL yAtum illatOr pOrvai amcol"); Although the simile is most apt, isn't it kind of strange considering all drums are hollow? Is this perhaps a common idiom ? > The important information that the drums were > smeared with a flour paste, and were played with > the drummer's hands just as maddaLam or mRdangam > is given by patiRRuppattu poem: > > "..... maak kaN taNNumai > kaival iLaiyar kaiyalai a_luGka" > > - patiRRuppattu 51: 33-34. > > "maak kaN taNNumai" clearly states the application > of flour paste on the drums and one of the earliest > literary attestations of this ancient Indian > practice > mentioned in Natyasastram, Susruta Samhita, and so > on. However according to the commentary that I have "mAkkaN taNNumai" - "kariya kaNNaiyuTaiya taNNumai", so it would seem mA is used in one of its more common senses viz., black/dark instead of flour. (Kazhagam edition, p.241). Do you have any other commentary ... u ve ca perhaps? Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Jan 20 12:30:41 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 12:30:41 +0000 Subject: Tibetan names (for citation) Message-ID: <161227066730.23782.15482090364638035695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Timothy C. Cahill wrote: > I need to know the proper forms for citing some Tibetan authors. The > five names are below, followed in some cases by (the same?) names in > square brackets as listed on WorldCat. (Do Tibetologists prefer hyphens?) The general trend seems to be to hyphenate the individual sematic units of Tibetan names -- at least that's what was being done in the big Tib-Eng dictionary that is being produced at SOAS when I was involved in it, with the root letter of the first syllable capitalized.. Thus, for your examples (correcting the various spelling errors) -- the second element aftrr the comma is the person's title: > Sa-skya PaN chen (PaNDita) kun dga' rgyal mtshan ** Kun-dga' rGyal-mtshan, Sa-skya Pandi-ta > sNar thang lo tsA ba dGe 'dun dpal ** dGge-'dun-dpal, sNar-thang Lo-tsa-ba > dPang lo tsA ba Blo gros brtan pa ** bLo-gros-brtan-pa, dPang Lo-tsa-ba > Rin-spuns-pa Nag-dban-'jig-rten-dban-phyug-grags-pa ** Ngag-dbang 'Jigs-rten-dbang-phyug-grags-pa, Rin-spungs-pa > > Si-tu Pan-chen Chos-kyi-'byun-gnas Chos-kyi-'byun-gnas, Si-tu Pan-chen > I have alphabetized texts by title according to the usual traditional alphabetical order. Is the > following order correct ? Basically OK but I have modified slightly as follows: sNyan-ngag me-long-gi grel-pa dByangs-can ngag-gi-rol-mtsho: a commentary on Dandin's Kavyadarsha. author: bsTan-'dzin Chos-kyi-nyi-ma, Khams-sprul IV (1730-1779) [Tashijong, 1969] > sNyan-ngag me-long-gi grel-pa Dbyangs-can rol-mtsho: a commentary on > Dandin's Kavyadarsha. > author: Mi-pham rGya-mtsho, 'Jam-mgon 'Ju, (1846-1912) [New Delhi: 1969] Can't help with the rest -- and I am also not sure what you mean by the following since I am unfamilar with what you call WorldCat -- is it something feline :) If you want more info off-list, pls contact me privately. > How do the names given in the WorldCat description relate to the one given > as "author" i.e., Mi-pham-rgya-mtsho? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Jan 20 15:18:05 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 15:18:05 +0000 Subject: Karnatak/Kannada Message-ID: <161227066732.23782.8797318089772351149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the postings related to Karnatak/Kannada thread, it was interesting to see the relationship between Kannada adjective hiriya and Tamil Periya (meaning-old/great/senior)and between hindu and pindu.Is Kannada word HudagA (boy,son)related to any Tamil word? It was also reported that the word "ayyavole"<"ayyapole. Here one can see interchange of sounds "V" and"P" similar to VaNijya (BaniyA-trader) and PaNi.Such interchange is observed elsewhere, e.g., Sanskrit Vijaya and Persian Piroja.Perhaps Sanskrit Var.sA(rain) might be related to Marathi "PAUsa"(rain). Could Tamil Periya be realated to Sanskrit Vari.s.tha (distinguished, senior)or VaraNya(desirable) or Vidura(wise)?I also see sound shifting between "P" and "B" like Pirami and Brahmi.My question is this-Is there any book available describing sound changes(like Grimm's rule)among Sanskrit and South Indian languages like Tamil, Telagu, Malayalam, Kannada and Marathi? One has to admit that at least some parts of Six Darzanas discuss Philosophy of Word and Meaning related to Sanskrit(may be of even other language) words(Gaurinath Sastri). Sanskrit Garmmarians-phoneticians took great efforts in developing terminology to describe minute variations (length, accent, nasality) in sounds of Sanskrit language. What was the purpose of all these efforts? Is anything wrong if we say hiriya in place of Periya or Periya in place of Vari.s.tha or Vidura(assumption is made)? In the age of computers and space travel, we get along with English where words are lined next to each other without many inflections.What was the need of the ancient cattle grazing and horse riding Aryans or their descendants to make efforts in developing a language with elaborate inflections? Was this an accident or conscious efforts? I do not see today's cattle grazers engaging themselves in linguistic science.It is said that language in its primitive stage was not dissolvable into parts. Was precisely broken language a necessity to solve philosophical problems? Was it misused to perform magic(like Indrajit of RAmAyaNa) by sacrificing an animal in Yajnya or used to get salvation by chanting God's name?By the way Islam the newest religion has animal sacrifice and of course the ancient Jews definitely sacrificed animals at the alter in the Temple. Thanks. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Sat Jan 20 19:21:56 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 19:21:56 +0000 Subject: My Apology (Re: dev- / Devil) Message-ID: <161227066734.23782.7070857821302979283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:54:37 -0500, Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: >Raveen Satkurunathan has written as follows: > >>Dear Aditya >> >>Arabian Nights has Basra as its center, a region which was Arabised after >>Islamic conquest but originally Iranian. In Avestan Iran Deivo were the [..] My apologies to the list. That was a personal email to Aditya (which I did not make clear to him) and I did not want to bore this list with such mundane details :-) Raveen From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 21 04:37:07 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 20:37:07 -0800 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066744.23782.6699499006476628632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli, Thank you for your grippingly lucid and obvious post. Are you not rearticulating of the general basis of the history of metaphysical/religious traditions, which have always been founded on the same sort of cunning multi-level marketing of "sacredness," "Grand Plan" and "redemption"? Would you be going for a piece of the general market share? Whether accurate or false, in accordance to this model, could not "IT" or "yajna-as-cycle" be designated by just about any thing or term? Why the preference for sacrifice? We invite simplification. rgrds VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 21 01:37:30 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 20:37:30 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066740.23782.17626169794034710695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas raises some valid points. The information contained in Ganesan's posting has several problems. If Ganesan's source is "tamizar icai" by A. N. Perumal, we can infer the lack of philological rigor of the book. In a message dated 1/19/2001 8:38:25 PM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > I was reading about the taNNumai drum in CT. > It appears taNNumai is comparable to what we call as mRdangam today. > > Its name contains the prefix, taN 'cool', and its > percussion sound is described soft ('ta_laGku' or 'aritta ? kural taNNumai'). tazaGku kural was not a soft sound. It was used to describe the sound of thunder as in tazagku kural ERoTu muzagki vAn2am (naR.7.5) The Online Tamil Lexicon glosses it as 'to sound, roar, resound'. In fact, naR. 298 which Ganesan quoted for tazaGku actually describes the fearsome sound produced by the taNNumai played by the hunters of the pAlai landscape. ? Usually the bards 'pANar' were gifted > with young calfs, and the soft calf-leather was utilized as ? taNNumai membranes. > > kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 kaiyatai ? vaLLuyirt taNNumai pOla - naRRiNai 310:9-10 There are two major problems here. First of all the reading kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 is an error. Both Auvai Duraisamy's edition and the Rajam edition which forms the basis for the Cologne Data base have only kaLiRu peRu valci. They were right to take the correct reading as kaLiRu peRu valci. (Not having tamizar icai, I cannot say which edition was its source.) But the error is understandable for anyone knowing the Tamil orthography. It was not only Perumal who has made the error, but also UVS library's 1989 edition edited by H. Venkataraman. It is significant that UVS was not the editor of this naRRiNai publication. If only Perumal or Venkataraman had checked the following lines, he could have figured out the correct reading. veLiRu il kaRpin2 maNTu amar aTutoRum kaLiRu peRu valci pANan2 eRiyum taNNumai kaNNin2 alaIyar tan2 vayiRu E (aka.106.11-13) It should be noted that the 1990 UVS library's akanAn2URu (kaLIRRiyAn2ai nirai) publication edited by vE. civacuppiramaNiyan2, Rajam edition as found in Cologne, and kazakam publication edited by po.vE. cOmacuntaran2Ar all agree on the reading 'kaLiRu'. I have not seen other evidence within the CT texts that the bards were customarily given calves as gifts. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 21 01:46:47 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 20:46:47 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums (contd.) Message-ID: <161227066742.23782.17218729078803267696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the other hand, aka.106 clearly says that the bard received the elephants as gifts in every battle fought by the king. This further confirms the reading kaLiRu. Moreover, the tradition of giving elephants to bards/poets is attested numerous times using many synonyms for kaLiRu too. (This is just to overcome any doubts about the akanAn2URu reading itself.) Consider the following. vAl uLai puraviyoTu vaya kaLiRu mukantukoNTu yAm avaN nin2Ru um varutum nIyir um (perumpANARRuppaTai 27-28) kaLiRu mukantu peyarkuvam en2in2 E (puR. 368.1) vEza mukavai nalkumati (puR. 369.27) iruppu mukam ceRitta Entu maruppin2 varai maruL mukavaikku vantan2en2 peruma (puR.370.20-21) matiyattu an2n2a en2 viciyuRu taTAri akal kaN atira AkuLi toTAlin2 paNai maruL neTu tAL pal piNar taTam kai pukar mukam mukavaikku vanticin2 peruma (puR.371.17-20) viLagku tiNai vEntar kaLam toRum cen2Ru pukar mukam mukavai polika en2Ru Etti koNTan2ar en2pa periyOr yAn2 um am kaN mA kiNai atira oRRa (puR. 373.28-31) The tradition of the bards receiving elephants is overwhelming. So the Rajam edition and Duraisamy Pillai edition are correct. UVS library publication and whatever else may be the source for tamizar icai are wrong. Now on to the interpretation of "x" peRu valci. When Venkataraman said in his patavurai that the pANan2 skinned the calf and ate it, obviously Venkataraman was not aware of the fact that valci not only meant food but also meant livelihood. He also did not check UVS' explanation for the following line from kuRuntokai. Or An2 valci cIr il vAzkkai (kuRu. 295.4) Here the hero's life before he married the heroine is described as a poor one with the livelihood he earned from a single cow (oru pacuvin2Al varum Utiyattaik koNTu uNNum uNavaiyuTaiya celvacciRappillAta vAzkkai). It is obvious that the hero was not eating the single cow. After all, how long can a single cow last as food for a person? Not to mention the problem of preservation! As for the calf leather being used to make the taNNumai, there is no evidence for it in CT. If the whole thesis was based on naR.310, it is simply invalid As for mA- in mAkkaN, it can be shown that LS was right in interpreting it as black. In the CT, we have evidence for some type of clay, maN, being applied to the drum, but not flour. taNNumai was played by land-owning farmers, farm laborers, and warriors also. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 20 22:21:20 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 01 22:21:20 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066738.23782.13117021228888557615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does "vaLLuyir" refer to the drum or to the sound it >produces, although according to commentary "peritAka >olikkum taNNumai" (u ve ca pub. p.560). Regarding the sound produced by taNNumai drums: maTivAyt taNNumai ta_laGku kural kETTa (naRRiNai 298:3) maRappaTai nuvalum arikkural taNNumai in2n2icai kETTa tun2n2aru maRavar (puRam 270:8-11) In the 14-15th century, AruNagirinAthar describes the taNNumait tALam well: "taritarit taritari taritari riririri taTutaTu TuTTuTu TuTuTuTu TuTuTuTu takutaku takutaku tattaku takuven2a" Regarding the interpretation that mA could refer to mAvu='flour', and the bards getting calves and so, the taNNumai drums could have been covered with calf-hide, instead of the mature leather, pl. refer to p. 114-117, tami_lar icai, Int. Inst. of Tamil Studies, 1984. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jan 21 18:59:30 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 01 13:59:30 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066750.23782.10996866940931835355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/21/2001 9:36:53 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Tamizar icai, makes use of the original naRRiNai edition > done by Pinnattuur NarayaNasamy Ayyar. The original > edition, and also the U.V.CaaminAtaiyar Library > edition, presumably checking with the available mss. > in the UVS library, ignores A. Duraisamy Pillai's > emendation and uses 'kan2Ru'. Duraisamy Pillai had additional manuscripts which neither Narayanasamy Iyer nor UVS had. Pillai states that as a result he had considerable new information which was unavailable earlier. He also says that new commentaries had to be written for some poems. Pillai did not emend the text as Ganesan puts it. So when the 1989 UVS library publication ignored Pillai's edition, they have chosen to ignore valuable new information. I doubt if UVS would have done it if he were alive. Pillai's edition came out in 1966-68. When A. N. Perumal's book was published in the 1980s, he too has chosen to go with an obsolete edition. Pillai had the title "urai vEntar" (king of commentators). After all, Hart-Heifetz whose translation is quoted by Ganesan rely on Pillai enormously. So to have ignored his work without adequate reasons is not defensible. The calf "kan2Ru" in naR.310 needs a decent burial. Let us not worry about the leather:-) > Probably the patrons who > cannot afford to gift Elephants to bards, gave some > cattle away along with calves, This type of speculation is useless in trying to identify critical textual variants given the nature of bardic poetry and aka.106. Otherwise, one can even say that the patrons could have given the poor bards some rope, "kayiRu". It will fit the text and the bards could have used the rope to pack the food items or to take whatever animals they were given:-) Moreover, we started with the case where calves -no accompanying cows- were said to be given to the bards. We cannot defend that position citing examples where cows and calves are given. > Sangam poetry is full of the descriptions by > bards of their poverty and so on. Perhaps, > some chieftains rich with cattle after raids > donated some. Cattle-raids in CT are well-known. That is not the issue. What has to be shown from CT texts is that the bards were customarily singled out to be given calves by themselves. Barring that, there is simply no basis to have "kan2Ru" in naR. 310. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 21 15:36:30 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 01 15:36:30 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066746.23782.7995621073010805241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 kaiyatai vaLLuyirt taNNumai pOla - naRRiNai 310:9-10 There are two major problems here. First of all the reading kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 is an error. Both Auvai Duraisamy's edition and the Rajam edition which forms the basis for the Cologne Data base have only kaLiRu peRu valci. They were right to take the correct reading as kaLiRu peRu valci. (Not having tamizar icai, I cannot say which edition was its source.) But the error is understandable for anyone knowing the Tamil orthography. It was not only Perumal who has made the error, but also UVS library's 1989 edition edited by H. Venkataraman. >>> The reading "kan2Ru" (calf) in the naRRiNai poem also has a long history. Tamizar icai, makes use of the original naRRiNai edition done by Pinnattuur NarayaNasamy Ayyar. The original edition, and also the U.V.CaaminAtaiyar Library edition, presumably checking with the available mss. in the UVS library, ignores A. Duraisamy Pillai's emendation and uses 'kan2Ru'. Probably the patrons who cannot afford to gift Elephants to bards, gave some cattle away along with calves, Some chieftains spent lot of energy in cattle raids to get cattle and calves. vaiyakam pulampa vaLaIya pAmpin2 vai eyiRRu uynta matiyin2 maRavar kai akattu uynta kan2Ru uTai pal An2 - puRam 260:16-18 "He was renowned for defeating the brave men who used to appear in battle before his walls and seize great herds to take back to their own city. He crossed the flood of arrows they had loosed at him upon the raft of his war drum and he killed them and he freed his herds. Like the moon which escapes from between the sharp fangs of the devouring serpent as the whole world grieves for it, he would return with fame with a herd of many cows and calves that he had wrested from the warrior MaRavars." -Translation by Hart-Heifetz. Also, another vivid description of a big cattle raid and taking calves and mature herds: in2am talai tarUum tuLagku imil nal ERRu tazUu piNar eruttam tAza pUTTiya am tUmpu akal amai kamam cela peyta tuRu kAz valciyar tozu aRai vauvi kan2Ru uTai peru nirai man2Ru niRai tarUum nErA van2 tOL vaTukar perumakan2 - akam 253:13-18 Sangam poetry is full of the descriptions by bards of their poverty and so on. Perhaps, some chieftains rich with cattle after raids donated some. Is the consensus that maak kiNai, maak kaN taNNumai etc. refer to a black paste, something like what we see on one side of today's mRdangam? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jan 21 16:45:09 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 01 16:45:09 +0000 Subject: Smering the Drums Message-ID: <161227066749.23782.13399395787362764952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are many examples of gifts of cow-calf 'kaRRA' pair to brahmins, poets, ... Let me just cite two exapmples: a) Gifting calf-cow pair to brahmins is mentioned in an ancient poem cited in the TolkAppiyam commentary (tol. poruL. 90. nac.) vELvinilai pon2n2iRainta poRkOTTup poRkuLampiR *kaRRA*tan tin2makizA n2antaNarai yin2puRuppar - cen2n2itan2 mAnilamE yAn2ulakam pOn2Ratu vAn2RukaLpOrt tAn2ulaka maNNulakA man2Ru. b) In medieval times, a bard seeking kaRRA pair from Vallaik kALatti MutaliyAr: peRRA LorupiLLai yen2man2ai yATTiyap piLLaikkuppAl paRRAtu kaJci kuTikkun taraman2Ru pAlirakkac ciRRALu millaiyiv vellA varuttamun tIravoru *kaRRA* taravallai yOvallai mAnakark kALattiyE! The poet describing his wife giving birth, and the pitiable poverty description of his homefront etc., are highly reminiscent of Sangam poems of the wandering minstrels. In this poem he seeks explicitly a cow-calf pair to feed the infant. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Sun Jan 21 23:00:46 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 01 18:00:46 -0500 Subject: tracing a quotation! Message-ID: <161227066754.23782.2224838342637270977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his commentary Baalabodhinii on Mamma.ta's Kaavyaprakaaza (7th reprint, 1965, p. 557), Vaamanaacaarya Jha.lkiikar cites a passage "agnir iva raaja.h" to illustrate the function of the so-called iva-samaasa. In his argument, not only is agnir-iva a compound, the bigger compound is inclusive of -raaja.h as well, and this accounts for the a-stem treatment of raaja.h with the Paninian samaasaanta affix -.tac (Panini: raajaaha.hsakhibhya.s .tac). I have looked all over for the source of the passage agnir iva raaja.h with Vedic indices etc. without success. Any further insight on the passage is welcome. Best, Madhav Deshpande From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Jan 21 19:01:02 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 01 19:01:02 +0000 Subject: Puzzle of Small and Big India Message-ID: <161227066752.23782.2408478261912190023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The German author Holger Kersten(Jesus lived in India-pub:Elements Book Ltd) mentions in his book that in ancient times, India referred to a land that extended far beyond her current geographic borders. Tibet and Mongolia also belonged to India, and in the west Iran of today was also included. I am not interested in the other part of the book.. But by this sentence only I am puzzled. This is so because in the known history after Candragupta's entry into Afghanistan (about 320 BCE), the borders of India went on shrinking(small India). I do not know where did German author get his information of big India and in what pre-historic era this big India existed. Indians did not have any knowledge of such big India ever existed in the past. However there appears to be the double linguistic connection between India and Georgia in the Caucasus. First connection Indo-Aryan- Georgian Navi(NaukA-boat),tani(tanu-body), mala(MAlA-garland),bandva(bandha- to tie). There is Tamil connection too-tsitai(Tamil-tsitel-red),tsuro(tsuri- udder),karri(karri-wind).This is interesting. Did Dravidians come from Caucasus to South India or they first went to Central Asia and then entered North India through Khyber pass.I am inclined to believe Dravidians went from South India to Georgia or they simply had trade contacts. Thanks. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Jan 22 05:16:40 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 00:16:40 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066758.23782.1117238347074245621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The manuscript-based reasons for choosing the reading 'kaLiRu peRu valci' in naR.310 have been stated already in the earlier post. In a message dated 1/21/2001 10:45:20 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > There are many examples of gifts of cow-calf 'kaRRA' pair > to brahmins, poets, ... These are irrelevant to the present discussion involving the bards. Or according to Ganesan, were the life and status of CT bards equivalent to that of the post-CT brahmins and poets? > Let me just cite two exapmples: > > a) Gifting calf-cow pair to brahmins is > mentioned in an ancient poem cited in the > TolkAppiyam commentary (tol. poruL. 90. nac.) > > vELvinilai > > pon2n2iRainta poRkOTTup poRkuLampiR *kaRRA*tan > tin2makizA n2antaNarai yin2puRuppar - cen2n2itan2 > mAnilamE yAn2ulakam pOn2Ratu vAn2RukaLpOrt > tAn2ulaka maNNulakA man2Ru. This is most likely a post-CT poem. What is being offered to the brahmins here is a gold cow with a gold calf and not a single real live calf. Clearly this looks like a hiraNyagarbha ceremony. Is this brahminic ceremony a justifiable evidence for building the case for the bard receiving a calf, skinning it, and using the leather for making a drum? In any case, we are not seeking the justification for the reading "kaRRA peRu valci" but rather "kan2Ru peRu valci". > > b) In medieval times, a bard seeking kaRRA pair > from Vallaik kALatti MutaliyAr: > > peRRA LorupiLLai yen2man2ai yATTiyap piLLaikkuppAl > paRRAtu kaJci kuTikkun taraman2Ru pAlirakkac > ciRRALu millaiyiv vellA varuttamun tIravoru > *kaRRA* taravallai yOvallai mAnakark kALattiyE! > > The poet describing his wife giving birth, and the > pitiable poverty description of his homefront etc., > are highly reminiscent of Sangam poems of the > wandering minstrels. In this poem he seeks explicitly > a cow-calf pair to feed the infant. Apart from the objections raised earlier, this kind of justification is anachronistic. Also, there is no evidence of a bard requesting a calf as a gift. But I have already given examples of bards seeking elephants as gifts. Even by this logic, kan2Ru is not a winner, but kaLiRu is. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 22 01:18:04 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 01:18:04 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066756.23782.7857416785259635921.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> UVS library edition of NaRRiNai: > > kan2Ru peRu valcip pANan2 kaiyatai > vaLLuyirt taNNumai pOla - naRRiNai 310:9-10 > Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >Here the reference seems to be to the pANar eating >calf meat (valci - food). What puzzles me is several years after A. Duraisamy Pillai wrote his reading "kaLiRu peRu valcip pANan2", Tamil scholars in the prestigious UVS library and Int. Inst. of Tamil studies etc., continue to use "kan2Ru peRu valci" supported by the available mss. The problem may be the non-availability of Mr. Pillai's mss. for verification. I have a 5-volume publication listing Tamil mss. worldwide, published by Tamil university at Thanjavur. Its First volume lists all known CT mss.: only two naRRiNai mss. so far known to the academic world, one at Annamalai university given by P. Narayanasami Ayyar, and the other full mss. of NaRRiNai is at UVS library. >The one clue, imho, this verse gives to the nature of >the taNNumai is that it was hollow ("uL yAtum illatOr >pOrvai amcol"); Although the simile is most apt, >isn't it kind of strange considering all drums are >hollow? Is this perhaps a common idiom ? The description of the drum is so scanty, I guess everything is not clear. Was only one side wrapped in leather while the other side left open?? >However according to the commentary that I have >"mAkkaN taNNumai" - "kariya kaNNaiyuTaiya taNNumai", >so it would seem mA is used in one of its more common >senses viz., black/dark instead of flour. (Kazhagam >edition, p.241). Do you have any other commentary ... >u ve ca perhaps? I chose mA to mean flour instead of black soil (the karaNai soil with high iron content) because of what U. VE. Saminathaiyar writes on mAk kiNai drum. mA is not the black earth on the kiNai drums because kiNai drums shine like full moon. If black soil is smeared CT says: "maN kaNai muzavam" ... The OTL entry: mA 06 1. flour, meal, dough, powder; 2. dust; The "mA" paste is applied on the kiNaip paRai drum as well as taNNumai drums. "aGkaN mAkkiNai atira oRRa" puRam 373 "arikkUTu mAkkiNai iriya oRRi" puRam 378 "teL kaN mAk kiNai teLirppa oRRi" puRam 397 etc. The CT editor UVS says kiNaippaRai resembles the Full Moon. If the mA flour is black or black earth (which is described differently as maN kaNai muzavu), then the kiNai drums cannot be looking like full moon! "20. kiNaip paRaikku muzu mati uvamai; matiyat tan2n2aven2 viciyuRu taTaari; mAka vicumpin2 veNtiGkaL, mUvaintAn2 muRai muRRak, kaTan2aTuvaT kaNTan2n2ave n2iyam; (puRanA. 371:17, 400:1-4)" (p. 590, eTTut tokaiyuL eTTAvatAkiya puRanAn2URu mUlamum uraiyum, UVS Edition, 6th reprinting, 1963). Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU Mon Jan 22 10:46:55 2001 From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 05:46:55 -0500 Subject: tracing a quotation! Message-ID: <161227066764.23782.13686266368334643049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav, Is the compound agnirivaraajah definitely a literal quotation? I ask because it could be seen as paraphrasing or otherwise referring to MBh 12.68.41ff., which reads, in part [regarding the king]: kurute paNca rUpANi kAlayuktAni yaH sadA / bhavaty agnis tathAdityo mRtyur vaiZravaNo yamaH // 41// yadA hy AsId ataH pApAn dahaty ugreNa tejasA / mithyopacarito rAjA tadA bhavati pAvakaH //42// yadA paZyati cAreNa sarvabhUtAni bhUmipaH / kSemaM ca kRtvA vrajati tadA bhavati bhAskaraH //43// etc Jim Fitzgerald From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Jan 22 11:20:40 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 06:20:40 -0500 Subject: tracing a quotation! In-Reply-To: <00d701c08460$b3ca99a0$ecc94ed8@tys.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <161227066766.23782.4092901618889634236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Jim, for your response. Not only is "agniriva raaja.h" given in quotation marks in the printed edition of Baalabodhinii, the grammatical argument seems to suggest that -raaja.h be part of a compound with the preceding. That is how Jha.lkiikar tries to explain the nominative form raaja.h, on the analogy of compounds like dharmaraaja.h. Best, Madhav On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, James L. Fitzgerald wrote: > Madhav, > > Is the compound agnirivaraajah definitely a literal quotation? I ask > because it could be seen as paraphrasing or otherwise referring to MBh > 12.68.41ff., which reads, in part [regarding the king]: > > kurute paNca rUpANi kAlayuktAni yaH sadA / > bhavaty agnis tathAdityo mRtyur vaiZravaNo yamaH // 41// > > yadA hy AsId ataH pApAn dahaty ugreNa tejasA / > mithyopacarito rAjA tadA bhavati pAvakaH //42// > > yadA paZyati cAreNa sarvabhUtAni bhUmipaH / > kSemaM ca kRtvA vrajati tadA bhavati bhAskaraH //43// etc > > Jim Fitzgerald > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jan 22 16:22:42 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 08:22:42 -0800 Subject: Spoken Tamil grammar Message-ID: <161227066772.23782.6655057011076250959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A recent book on spoken Tamil: Author: Schiffman, Harold F. Title: A reference grammar of spoken Tamil Publisher: Cambridge, U.K. ; New York : Cambridge University Press, 1999. Description: Book xxii, 232 p. ; 26 cm. ISBN: 0521640741 (hb) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Mon Jan 22 10:15:51 2001 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 11:15:51 +0100 Subject: Puzzle of Small and Big India Message-ID: <161227066762.23782.14230615981649184114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What he referred to was the limited geographical knowledge in Europe during the Middle Ages, India was a mythical place somewhere out there and just a word for the unknown land on the other side of Jerusalem, which was thought of as the centre of the world. There was no big India, but an unknown mythical India. Narayan R.Joshi wrote: > The German author Holger Kersten(Jesus lived in India-pub:Elements Book Ltd) > mentions in his book that in ancient times, India referred to a land that > extended far beyond her current geographic borders. Tibet and Mongolia also > belonged to India, and in the west Iran of today was also included. I am > not interested in the other part of the book.. But by this sentence only I > am puzzled. This is so because in the known history after Candragupta's > entry into Afghanistan (about 320 BCE), the borders of India went on > shrinking(small India). I do not know where did German author get his > information of big India and in what pre-historic era this big India > existed. Indians did not have any knowledge of such big India ever existed > in the past. However there appears to be the double linguistic connection > between India and Georgia in the Caucasus. First connection Indo-Aryan- > Georgian Navi(NaukA-boat),tani(tanu-body), mala(MAlA-garland),bandva(bandha- > to tie). There is Tamil connection too-tsitai(Tamil-tsitel-red),tsuro(tsuri- > udder),karri(karri-wind).This is interesting. Did Dravidians come from > Caucasus to South India or they first went to Central Asia and then entered > North India through Khyber pass.I am inclined to believe Dravidians went > from South India to Georgia or they simply had trade contacts. Thanks. > > From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 22 16:22:23 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 11:22:23 -0500 Subject: Logic of Yoga Message-ID: <161227066770.23782.14982778624525422241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "Ven. Tantra" >Are you not rearticulating ...same sort of cunning multi-level >marketing >of "sacredness," "Grand Plan" and "redemption"? veda paraibhASa is only recommended for those who know atleast one method of arriving at truth under ANY circumstances, including some prANAyAma just in case the idea can not be expressed in words where one can (cunningly) use words like vyAna to fill the gaps. In other words it is for them who don't need any redemption or at least who are not looking for such thing. Redemption is always optional. >Why the preference for sacrifice? We invite simplification. As I said earlier even at Vedic times every one was not equally intelligent. So they corectly predicted that people will forget, and designed the ritual as a symbolic way to represent/remember the complexity of the knowledge, not unlike the techniques a ghanApAThi uses to remember the chants. We can not deny there is a significance to these techniques themselves, but let us go one step at a time. The scope of Chemistry expanded after discovery of sub-atomic particles. If scholars use agni etc, the scope of lingustics or any other subject will expand (IMO) because that is the simplest possible convention, because even the preparations the body makes before speaking out a syllable are included in this convention. I hope this concludes the discussion. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From pamela at UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Jan 22 18:56:54 2001 From: pamela at UCHICAGO.EDU (Pam Lothspeich) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 12:56:54 -0600 Subject: query: fonts Message-ID: <161227066780.23782.17718835056372136477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am interested in finding a good devanagari font for Hindi and a roman transliteration font for Windows. Ideally, I would be like to be able to perform search and replace commands in Words. Does anyone have information on the fonts available through Linguists Software, Krishnasoft or Saralsoft? Krishnasoft seems to allow one to switch between roman and devanagari without rekeyboarding. Any information on good fonts would be greatly appreciated. Pam Lothspeich From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Mon Jan 22 19:27:08 2001 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 13:27:08 -0600 Subject: query: fonts Message-ID: <161227066782.23782.8349263998770856460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These are available: Please see information on the Indology web site. Go to "Virtual Archive of Indic etexts" page, then got to "Sanskrit Texts by Vedic Engineering," then to "full details of texts, fonts, and software available." The basic font set is US$5 and needed word processor that runs in MS Word (Best in version 95, but ok in newer versions) or stand-alone is US$30. Both will be sent by email after receipt of payment. Be sure to see notes on how to send money. (Do NOT send wire transfer!) Word contains font sensitive search. To use it, type the word you want to find with VedaPad and then paste it into search box and select font sensitive and case sensitive. This gives information about texts available, cost, and how to order. In addition to these, I also have Monier Williams/Cappeller dictionary on CD-ROM for $45 plus $5 shipping and handling. (Requires Windows 95/98) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam Lothspeich" To: Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: query: fonts > Hello, > > I am interested in finding a good devanagari font for Hindi and a roman > transliteration font for Windows. Ideally, I would be like to be able to > perform search and replace commands in Words. Does anyone have information > on the fonts available through Linguists Software, Krishnasoft or > Saralsoft? Krishnasoft seems to allow one to switch between roman and > devanagari without rekeyboarding. Any information on good fonts would be > greatly appreciated. > > Pam Lothspeich > From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 22 18:31:49 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 13:31:49 -0500 Subject: Old Russian words for linguist and linguistics Message-ID: <161227066776.23782.9297212943445756338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly check this URL which discusses the synonyms for the word linguist in different languages. http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/5/5-1192.html The old Russian word "Yazykoved" might interest the group. Any luck with trying "yajna-kovid" or "yajnik-o-vedet"? Also says the word for linguistics is "jazykoznanie". Is this 'yajnic jnani"? :-) Where is old Russian spoken, and how different it is from new? Any other coincidence other than linguist? Thanks in advance. Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Jan 22 11:32:27 2001 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 13:32:27 +0200 Subject: Puzzle of Small and Big India Message-ID: <161227066768.23782.12600383376442900443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > > What he referred to was the limited geographical knowledge in Europe > during the Middle Ages, India was a mythical place somewhere out there > and just a word for the unknown land on the other side of Jerusalem, > which was thought of as the centre of the world. There was no big India, > but an unknown mythical India. > > Narayan R.Joshi wrote: > ... The original question was not of Middle Ages but of "ancient times", when there also was some geographical knowledge. According to Ptolemy, India consisted of two parts, India on this side and India on the other side of the Ganges and the latter also included all Southeast Asia. Therefore we still have Indonesia or the Indian Archipelago (with Greek n?sos, island) and that is also why "East Indies" originally got its plural. But Iran and Central Asia (as well as China and Sri Lanka) were dealt with separately, they were not considered part of India. The idea of the Western border of India they had in the ancient West changed, some put it along the Indus, some, probably following the western border of the Mauryas, along the Hindukush. As far as the Middle Ages are concerned, Eric was right. For several authors India really was a mythical land somewhere beyond Jerusalem and in some cases Iran (and still more often Ethiopia) seems to be included. New information started to come in the 13th and 14th centuries and now also Ptolemy was studied again. Then came Columbus and further confused the things with his "West Indies". Regards Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From rv19 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 22 08:39:52 2001 From: rv19 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Rupa Viswanath) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 14:09:52 +0530 Subject: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066760.23782.4532999389159219669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Specifically for Cankam literature the Int'l Institute of Tamil Studies published a two volume set by J. Vacek and S.V. Subramaniam, "A Tamil Reader: Introducing Sangam Literature," 1989. Though the authors mention that the book is designed for those with some modern Tamil, I think you could use it quite easily, especially if you could consult a teacher occasionally. The first volume is an introduction plus selected poems; the second is a list of vocabulary in the poems. Each poem is presented in Tamil script and English transliteration, followed by translation and detailed grammatical and prosodic analysis. And they are arranged, roughly, in order of difficulty. I have found these volumes to be enormously useful, at least as a place to start. I agree with Stephen Hodges that Classical Tamil grammar is quite different from the modern, but for basic grammatical categories, as well as common sandhi changes (which are covered in the above volumes, but at lightning speed) it may be useful to consult a modern Tamil grammar. Best, Rupa At 01:57 PM 1/19/01 -0500, you wrote: >Thank you for your advice; I'll check these out. > >It's true that Toronto has a huge South Asian population-- the largest, I >think, of any city outside of the Subcontinent. And yet no Dravidian >language is taught at the University of Toronto, and our once-great >Sanskrit department is now embodied in a single professor. I shall have >to teach myself Tamil from books, or try to overcome my social ineptitude >and look about for living instructors. > >P From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Mon Jan 22 19:57:50 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 14:57:50 -0500 Subject: Books for self-instruction in Classical Literary Tamil In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010122133546.00ae18d0@pop.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <161227066784.23782.5009671309794893450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Rupa Viswanath wrote: Much thanks for the advice given below. I will see if I can find this book in the U of T library, to begin with. P > Specifically for Cankam literature the Int'l Institute of Tamil Studies > published a two volume set by J. Vacek and S.V. Subramaniam, "A Tamil > Reader: Introducing Sangam Literature," 1989. > > Though the authors mention that the book is designed for those with some > modern Tamil, I think you could use it quite easily, especially if you > could consult a teacher occasionally. The first volume is an introduction > plus selected poems; the second is a list of vocabulary in the poems. Each > poem is presented in Tamil script and English transliteration, followed by > translation and detailed grammatical and prosodic analysis. And they are > arranged, roughly, in order of difficulty. I have found these volumes to > be enormously useful, at least as a place to start. > > I agree with Stephen Hodges that Classical Tamil grammar is quite different > from the modern, but for basic grammatical categories, as well as common > sandhi changes (which are covered in the above volumes, but at lightning > speed) it may be useful to consult a modern Tamil grammar. > > Best, > Rupa From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Jan 22 19:03:49 2001 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 20:03:49 +0100 Subject: Old Russian words for linguist and linguistics Message-ID: <161227066778.23782.1496243820168794905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First, "yazykoved" is not "Old Russian". In Old Russia there were no linguists, and no term for them. The term was coined by scholars in the 19th century as a Russian equivalent to Western "linguist". The first element "yazyk" has nothing in common with *yajna* and means simply "tongue" (in both meanings). The second element is really a little archaic, it is the verbal root which is not used in modern everyday landuage: *vedat'", old Russian *vedati - 'to know'. The verb goes back to the same common Indo-European root as Sanskrit *Veda*. In the scholarly term "yazykoznanije" the first element is the same: *yazyk* 'language', and the second one "znanije" is surely related to Sanskrit jnAna, as well as to Greek *gnosis*. "Znanije" is the word of ancient origin, but preserved in modern language, as many others. Old Russian disappeared, or, to be exact, turned into modern Russian. Its closest relative, "Church Slavonic" is still used in religious service. Old Russian and even modern Russian preserve *many* words which are close both in meaning and form to Sanskrit (as the words belonging to common Indo-European heritage). All the best, Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" To: Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Old Russian words for linguist and linguistics > Kindly check this URL which discusses the synonyms for the word linguist in > different languages. > > http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/5/5-1192.html > > The old Russian word "Yazykoved" might interest the group. Any luck with > trying "yajna-kovid" or "yajnik-o-vedet"? > > Also says the word for linguistics is "jazykoznanie". Is this 'yajnic > jnani"? :-) > > Where is old Russian spoken, and how different it is from new? Any other > coincidence other than linguist? > > Thanks in advance. > Regards > Bhadraiah > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Jan 22 16:42:14 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 01 22:12:14 +0530 Subject: Puzzle of Small and Big India In-Reply-To: <3A6C1A40.5045FCB6@Helsinki.Fi> Message-ID: <161227066774.23782.8440406872214966408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, K. Karttunen wrote in response to N.Joshi: > According to Ptolemy, India consisted of two parts, India on this side > and India on the other side of the Ganges and the latter also included > all Southeast Asia. There are likewise two Indias in German maps of the early 20th century: one, Vorderindien or Nearer India comprising the modern subcontinent, and the other Hinterindien or Further India comprising South-East Asia. As far as I am aware, most European languages (except English) preserve this nomenclature. `Indonesia' is variously referred to as East Indies, Ost Indies, etc. Likewise, the Arabic `Hind' refers to all of this territory, indeed `Hind' is often specifically referred to as including Indonesia, Burma, etc. in Muslim chronicles. The Persian `Hindustan' however refers to northern India only. The English preferred to restrict `India' to their territory, hence the perceived `reduction' in size. Samar From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Jan 23 14:19:56 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 01 09:19:56 -0500 Subject: agnir iva raaja.h In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066790.23782.16262844417204643985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I detected that the citation "agnir iva raaja.h" is at least as old as Bha.t.toji Diik.sita's Zabdakaustubha where he says: agnir iva raaja.h vaayur iva paaza.h ity aadi parizi.s.ta-udaahara.nam sa.mgacchate. This could refer to some text called Parizi.s.ta or may simply mean "remaining examples. In any case, it looks like a citation and begs for a source. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > In his commentary Baalabodhinii on Mamma.ta's Kaavyaprakaaza (7th reprint, > 1965, p. 557), Vaamanaacaarya Jha.lkiikar cites a passage "agnir iva > raaja.h" to illustrate the function of the so-called iva-samaasa. In his > argument, not only is agnir-iva a compound, the bigger compound is > inclusive of -raaja.h as well, and this accounts for the a-stem treatment > of raaja.h with the Paninian samaasaanta affix -.tac (Panini: > raajaaha.hsakhibhya.s .tac). I have looked all over for the source of the > passage agnir iva raaja.h with Vedic indices etc. without success. Any > further insight on the passage is welcome. Best, > > Madhav Deshpande > From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Jan 23 16:06:18 2001 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 01 10:06:18 -0600 Subject: query: fonts In-Reply-To: <200101221857.f0MIv8007969@midway.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <161227066786.23782.17629461534001422082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Pam, Try Itranslator98. It's the best thing I've found for exactly these jobs. You input a word following the conventions we use on listservs like Indology, (i.e., "life" is jIvana), and it turns it into both devanagari and transliteration, in nice fonts. As for searches, since the initial "code" requires no special font, you can fully search documents without the usual problems the MSWord poses with unique fonts. The software is free--a plus--and the designers are extraordinarily helpful and generous with there time should you encounter any difficulties. Here's the URL to download the software: http://sanskrit.bhaarat.com/Omkarananda/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html Christian At 12:56 PM 1/22/01 -0600, you wrote: >Hello, > >I am interested in finding a good devanagari font for Hindi and a roman >transliteration font for Windows. Ideally, I would be like to be able to >perform search and replace commands in Words. Does anyone have information >on the fonts available through Linguists Software, Krishnasoft or >Saralsoft? Krishnasoft seems to allow one to switch between roman and >devanagari without rekeyboarding. Any information on good fonts would be >greatly appreciated. > >Pam Lothspeich From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue Jan 23 14:02:08 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 01 15:02:08 +0100 Subject: looking for an article Message-ID: <161227066788.23782.3215191971828939468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, I am trying to locate the foolowing article: B.L.Sharma, "Paksata: the motivational conditions of inference according to Navya-Nyaya", Darshana 21, 1966, 103-107. Publication data is taken from Potter's "Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophy", where the journal "Darshana" is listed as "Darshana International" (Moradabad), 1(1961)-16(1976). Nonwithstanding the puzzling fact that No.21 is supposed to have appeared in 1966 and No.16 in 1976, I tried to order the article via Germany's "Bibliothekenverbund". The order was returned, and I was informed that the article is not contained in this issue of the journal. [Which may also mean that the issue does not exist!] My question: Could anyone with access to the publication data of "Darshana" (or to the article in question) be so kind as to check the above data for me? Assistance will be greatly appreciated, -------- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Jan 23 16:17:25 2001 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 01 17:17:25 +0100 Subject: book Message-ID: <161227066792.23782.6168884428704106314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Do you know how to get the following book since I was informed that it is not possible to buy it. Akira YUYAMA, *Eug?ne Burnouf. The Background to his Research into the Lotus Sutra*, Bibliotheca Philologica et Philosophica Buddhica vol. III, Editor-in-chief Yuichi Kajiyama, The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology, Soka University, Hachioji, Tokyo, 2000, xiv+ 192 p. Thank you, Enrica *********************************************************** Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia, ITALY Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journal of Tantric Studies Journal of South Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org *********************************************************** From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Tue Jan 23 18:01:53 2001 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 01 19:01:53 +0100 Subject: book In-Reply-To: <3A6DAE95.9AB45820@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227066794.23782.13186515211202829485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Enrica Garzilli wrote: > Do you know how to get the following book since I was > informed that it is not possible to buy it. > > Akira YUYAMA, *Eug?ne Burnouf. The Background to his Research > into the Lotus Sutra*, Bibliotheca Philologica et > Philosophica Buddhica vol. III, Editor-in-chief Yuichi > Kajiyama, The International Research Institute for Advanced > Buddhology, Soka University, Hachioji, Tokyo, 2000, xiv+ 192 > p. You can get it directly from the International Research Institute, the address is: The International Research Institute for Advanced Buddhology, Soka University 1-293 Tangi, Hachioji, Tokyo 192-8577, Japan e-Mail: iriab at s.soka.ac.jp Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 23 20:57:52 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 01 20:57:52 +0000 Subject: Bodhi leaves' sound Message-ID: <161227066799.23782.15942233633792303025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Bodhi tree from times immemorial have been important in Indian culture and religion. The bodhi tree leaves make a constant noise in the forests, and these leaves have been imitated in metal to make garlands for cattle, waist girdles (kAnchI/mekhalA) for children, girls. My question is whether Sanskrit or other Indian literature compares the sound from the leaves of a living Bodhi/Asvattha tree with a) waves (from the sea) or b) harp/lute (VeeNaa or Yaazh) or c) bees ? Thanks for any comments, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From shimj at USA.NET Wed Jan 24 03:41:45 2001 From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 01 03:41:45 +0000 Subject: [looking for an article] Message-ID: <161227066797.23782.9064306078924176867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As far as I know, Darshan Internatioal is a quaterly magazine, and could be counted of its volume number as quarter. If my guess is correct Darshana 21(1966) should be vol.6 no.l(1966). But I am not quite sure. Jaekwan Shim Dept. of Philosphy Kangnung Univ. South Korea. Birgit Kellner wrote: Dear list-members, I am trying to locate the foolowing article: B.L.Sharma, "Paksata: the motivational conditions of inference according to Navya-Nyaya", Darshana 21, 1966, 103-107. Publication data is taken from Potter's "Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophy", where the journal "Darshana" is listed as "Darshana International" (Moradabad), 1(1961)-16(1976). Nonwithstanding the puzzling fact that No.21 is supposed to have appeared in 1966 and No.16 in 1976, I tried to order the article via Germany's "Bibliothekenverbund". The order was returned, and I was informed that the article is not contained in this issue of the journal. [Which may also mean that the issue does not exist!] My question: Could anyone with access to the publication data of "Darshana" (or to the article in question) be so kind as to check the above data for me? Assistance will be greatly appreciated, -------- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From ghezziem at TIN.IT Wed Jan 24 09:23:52 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 01 09:23:52 +0000 Subject: about congresses and so on Message-ID: <161227066800.23782.15276606026093123474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Colleagues, I have a problem. In Italy, it is very difficult receive information about congresses, symposia, conferences and so on; no sites in the web pages of the Italian Oriental Departments are really well informed about this (obviously, I don't lay the blame upon my dear and affectionate Italian colleagues!). For example, the last year I have gone in Prague and in Marburg only by means of a personal invitation; and, in April, I shall go at the WSC in Delhi newly by a personal invitation from professor Vachaspati Upadhyaya. In any case, I beg to all List members to inform all (if it is not a problem or an annoyance) when similar opportunities happen. Indology is, in my mind, the most efficient online indianistic "meeting". With the greatest gratitude, Daniela Rossella ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Wed Jan 24 08:47:41 2001 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 01 09:47:41 +0100 Subject: [looking for an article] Message-ID: <161227066802.23782.12618229261306962649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> La "Bibliography of Nyaya-Vaisesika" de K. Hota et A.R. Mishra.- Poona, CASS, 1993 donne effectivement DI, 6.I comme reference pour cet article. Malheureusment la BCU n'a pas ce periodique. A+ Francois Obrist At 03:41 24.01.2001 KST, you wrote: >As far as I know, Darshan Internatioal is a quaterly magazine, and could be >counted of its volume number as quarter. If my guess is correct Darshana >21(1966) should be vol.6 no.l(1966). But I am not quite sure. > >Jaekwan Shim > >Dept. of Philosphy >Kangnung Univ. >South Korea. > > > >Birgit Kellner wrote: > Dear list-members, > > I am trying to locate the foolowing article: > B.L.Sharma, "Paksata: the motivational conditions of inference > according to Navya-Nyaya", Darshana 21, 1966, 103-107. > > Publication data is taken from Potter's "Encyclopedia of Indian > Philosophy", where the journal "Darshana" is listed as "Darshana > International" (Moradabad), 1(1961)-16(1976). Nonwithstanding the > puzzling fact that No.21 is supposed to have appeared in 1966 and > No.16 in 1976, I tried to order the article via Germany's > "Bibliothekenverbund". The order was returned, and I was > informed that the article is not contained in this issue of the > journal. [Which may also mean that the issue does not exist!] > > My question: Could anyone with access to the publication data of > "Darshana" (or to the article in question) be so kind as to check the above >data for me? > > Assistance will be greatly appreciated, > >-------- >Best regards, > >Birgit Kellner >Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies >Vienna University > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > -------------------------------------------- Francois Obrist Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire (BCU) Section de langues et civilisations orientales CH-1015 Lausanne email: Francois.Obrist at bcu.unil.ch tel. : +41 21 692 4836 Fax : +41 21 692 4845 : From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Wed Jan 24 11:37:08 2001 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 01 13:37:08 +0200 Subject: Puzzle of Small and Big India Message-ID: <161227066805.23782.4699845277851443988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > There are likewise two Indias in German maps of the early 20th century: one, > Vorderindien or Nearer India comprising the modern subcontinent, and the other > Hinterindien or Further India comprising South-East Asia. As far as I am > aware, most European languages (except English) preserve this nomenclature. > `Indonesia' is variously referred to as East Indies, Ost Indies, etc I did not mention "Hinterindien" as it is not English. But I think it is now antiquated in most European languages and an equivalent of South-East Asia is used instead. I have myself learned the Finnish equivalent ("Taka-Intia") in school about 40 years ago, but even then it was said to be antiquated. East Indies etc. are also antiquated and Indonesia (note the old German translation Inselindien) commonly used in different languages. But as I wrote, all these terms using India are originally founded on the Geography of Ptolemy. > The English preferred to restrict `India' to their territory, hence the perceived > `reduction' in size. The English East Indies contained South-East Asia and Indonesia, too, and even West Indies for Caribian islands was still commonly used about 100 years ago. Indonesia was known as the Dutch India or Dutch East Indies, in the 19th century also as the Indian Archipelago. Samar himself mentioned the term "Further (also Farther) India, beside this also Indochina was used. Regards Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jan 25 14:42:25 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 01 06:42:25 -0800 Subject: about congresses and so on Message-ID: <161227066808.23782.8539011286307610053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also, check the Conferences and Events on South Asia section in SARAI maintained by Dr. David Magier, Columbia university. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/ --- "Dr Y. Vassilkov" wrote: > Dear Dr. Rosella, > The International Institute for Asian Studies in Leiden, the > Netherlands, publishes the IIAS Newsletter (sent to all major Orientalist > institutions of Europe), in each number of which there is "International > Conferences Agenda" for a year ahead. You can also try the IIAS homepage: > http://www.iias.nl . I hope you will find it useful. > Best regards, > > Yaroslav Vassilkov > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniela Rossella" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 10:23 AM > Subject: about congresses and so on > > > > Dearest Colleagues, I have a problem. In Italy, it is very difficult > receive > > information about congresses, symposia, conferences and so on; no sites in > > the web pages of the Italian Oriental Departments are really well > informed > > about this (obviously, I don't lay the blame upon my dear and > affectionate > > Italian colleagues!). For example, the last year I have gone in Prague and > > in Marburg only by means of a personal invitation; and, in April, I shall > go > > at the WSC in Delhi newly by a personal invitation from professor > Vachaspati > > Upadhyaya. In any case, I beg to all List members to inform all (if it is > > not a problem or an annoyance) when similar opportunities happen. > Indology > > is, in my mind, the most efficient online indianistic "meeting". > > With the greatest gratitude, > > Daniela Rossella > > > > ***************************************************** > > Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella > > Piazza Buzzati, 5 > > 43100 PARMA (Italy) > > tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 > > cell. +39.0338 3198904 > > ghezziem at tin.it > > ***************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Jan 25 09:47:10 2001 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 01 10:47:10 +0100 Subject: about congresses and so on Message-ID: <161227066806.23782.442321719978716498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Rosella, The International Institute for Asian Studies in Leiden, the Netherlands, publishes the IIAS Newsletter (sent to all major Orientalist institutions of Europe), in each number of which there is "International Conferences Agenda" for a year ahead. You can also try the IIAS homepage: http://www.iias.nl . I hope you will find it useful. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniela Rossella" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 10:23 AM Subject: about congresses and so on > Dearest Colleagues, I have a problem. In Italy, it is very difficult receive > information about congresses, symposia, conferences and so on; no sites in > the web pages of the Italian Oriental Departments are really well informed > about this (obviously, I don't lay the blame upon my dear and affectionate > Italian colleagues!). For example, the last year I have gone in Prague and > in Marburg only by means of a personal invitation; and, in April, I shall go > at the WSC in Delhi newly by a personal invitation from professor Vachaspati > Upadhyaya. In any case, I beg to all List members to inform all (if it is > not a problem or an annoyance) when similar opportunities happen. Indology > is, in my mind, the most efficient online indianistic "meeting". > With the greatest gratitude, > Daniela Rossella > > ***************************************************** > Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella > Piazza Buzzati, 5 > 43100 PARMA (Italy) > tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 > cell. +39.0338 3198904 > ghezziem at tin.it > ***************************************************** From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jan 25 16:07:13 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 01 16:07:13 +0000 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066810.23782.290307507020345990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Let me just cite two examples: > > a) Gifting calf-cow pair to brahmins is > mentioned in an ancient poem cited in the > TolkAppiyam commentary (tol. poruL. 90. nac.) > > vELvinilai > > pon2n2iRainta poRkOTTup poRkuLampiR *kaRRA*tan > tin2makizA n2antaNarai yin2puRuppar - cen2n2itan2 > mAnilamE yAn2ulakam pOn2Ratu vAn2RukaLpOrt > tAn2ulaka maNNulakA man2Ru. Dr. S. Palaniappan wrote: << This is most likely a post-CT poem. What is being offered to the brahmins here is a gold cow with a gold calf and not a single real live calf. [...] >> The commentary on this poem talks of an actual cow with a calf. While being gifted to the brahmins, the cow's horns and the hoofs are covered with gold ornaments. ---- In a puRam poem, the memorial stone erecting ceremony of a Chieftain is described. In this, the chief's ability of taking calves and their feeding cows ( *kan2RoTu kaRavai*) from his enemies is particularly praised, and the poet asks "will the bards' groups come today without knowing the sad news that the chief has died?". Is it possible that bards visited routinely chiefs after their winning of cows and calves? paral uTai marugkin2 patukkai cErtti maral vakuntu toTutta ce pU kaNNiyoTu aNi mayil pIli cUTTi peyar poRittu in2i naTTan2ar E kal um kan2RoTu kaRavai tantu pakaivar OTTiya neTuntakai kazintamai aRiyAtu in2Ru um varum kol pANaratu kaTumpu E - puRam 264 Regards, N. Ganesan > > b) In medieval times, a bard seeking kaRRA pair > from Vallaik kALatti MutaliyAr: > > peRRA LorupiLLai yen2man2ai yATTiyap piLLaikkuppAl > paRRAtu kaJci kuTikkun taraman2Ru pAlirakkac > ciRRALu millaiyiv vellA varuttamun tIravoru > *kaRRA* taravallai yOvallai mAnakark kALattiyE! > > The poet describing his wife giving birth, and the > pitiable poverty description of his homefront etc., > are highly reminiscent of Sangam poems of the > wandering minstrels. In this poem he seeks explicitly > a cow-calf pair to feed the infant. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 26 01:56:16 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 01 20:56:16 -0500 Subject: Copies of manuscripts and recordings of T.S. wanted Message-ID: <161227066812.23782.13361251079703519727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can anyone tell me if it is possible to obtain either microfilm or photocopies of manuscripts of the Taittiriya Samhita or fairly large portions of it, at least 1 kANDa at a reasonable price. I'm also interested in copies of recordings of the TS or at least 1 kANDa of it. (I already have the reference to the recordings of the Delhi Vedic Trust and am checking that.) Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jan 26 07:04:07 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 01 02:04:07 -0500 Subject: Smearing the Drums Message-ID: <161227066813.23782.4080460211691162051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/25/2001 10:08:00 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > The commentary on this poem talks of an actual cow with a calf. > While being gifted to the brahmins, the cow's horns and the hoofs > are covered with gold ornaments. It will be good if Ganesan gives the reference for the commentary and also the actual quote referring to the information stated above. Thanks. Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jan 26 15:27:07 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 01 15:27:07 +0000 Subject: Musicians in the Near East Message-ID: <161227066815.23782.4405337173026933944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: >Regarding the status of leather workers (called A$GAB and a$kapu), which >Naga Ganesan asked me about in private correspondence, they were highly >respected and in fact among the most important experts in Near East >societies, since they also made parts for weapons, chariots, horses, and >armour. Musicians and singers, too, were highly >regarded, as they took part in all kinds of rituals. There were no >"polluted" castes in Near East societies. One key development in Indian cultural/religious history is the Sacred Cow concept. When did this happen? After IA migrations or before ??? Refer to "Beef eating in the Veda" thread in the archives (Feb '97). When beef eating came to be avoided, anything to do with the dead cow also might have become "low" in Indian societal hierarchy over the course of centuries. But I think initially Indian society had no untouchability. Interestingly while we find utility objects and written documents on leather in the Near East, Indian written texts are found on palm leaves, tree barks, cloth, but not on leather. Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote on the relations between leather and music instruments: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9704&L=indology&P=R2808 I do not know whether the devadasi tradition in India and the musicians in the ancient Near East had been compared. Saskia Kersenboom-Story in her books like Nityasumangali and articles describe the creation of the devadasi institution invested with auspiciousness, they show pot-lamp (kumbhaarti) in front of idols to remove the Evil eye etc. Kersenboom compares old Tamil texts, the saiva aagamas, with the devadasi system, And uses a sacred power concept ( K. V. Zvelebil, The nature of sacred power, AO, 1979 ) to describe the devadasi institution. Eric M. Meyers, vol. 4, The Oxford encyclopaedia of Archaeology in the Near East, 1997 has an article by Joachim Braun, Professor of Musicology, Bar-Ilan university called "Musical instruments", p. 70-79 "In the first half of the second millennium BCE in old Babylonia and later, but especially in the Iron age, in other Near Eastern areas, two forms of the female drum player, the most notable indigenous type, appear on deep-relief terracotta plaques. The figures are naked but adorned with a wig or head cover and a disk (drum) is pressed against the chest with both hands (Rashid, 1984, ills. 91-95) ... It is probably at this time that the drum (tOph in the Hebrew Bible) acquired a function in both the cultic and everyday life of the lower strata of the population." "Harp: ... There are representations since the eighteenth dynasty of the vertical angular harp, which is considered an import from elsewhere in the Near East; smaller harps are depicted as well - the portable "shoulder harp" and the "laddle harp". All of these instruments, mostly built from expensive wood from Lebanon and designed as works of art, seem to have been used only in the highest circles of society." "Lyre: The primary musical instrument in the Near East was the Lyre ... The elaborate Sumerian assymetrical lyres have a resonator in the form of a bull (upright, it is some 150 cm high) or are ornamental with a bull's head (portable, 100-120 cm), ... In the late third - early second millennium BCE, when large standing lyres were still in use (in Babylon; in Anatolia..), and the first modified forms appeared in the hands of naked dancing women (Negev rock etching, 19th century BCE; Anati, 1963, p.210) ... The Sumerian grand royal lyre was replaced by a simply built, small (some 40-50 cm), portable, symmetrical, and sometimes asymmetrical, instrument. For the first time it was held horizontally, in front of the musician; it was played mostly by musicians of low social status, Semitic travelling merchants, and women - the latter often depicted naked (Rashid, 1984, ills. 47, 59, 72, 80; Behn, 1954, p 185; Porada, 1956, figs. g-j)." "Lute: Instruments of the lute type are the most mobile, dynamic, and subject to change among all chordophones. ... In the Old Babylonian period, the musicians are often naked men and women... While attested in Canaan in two more finds (naked female bronze statuette; IAA, no. M969; dancing minstrel on a terracotta plaque; Hebrew Union College, no. 23.095)... In Egypt the instrument became very popular and was played by naked females (1961a, p. 98) and on some occasions by men, possibly in a cultic context. In the earliest depictions, lutes are generally shown with two-three strings marked with decorative tassels at the tuning box. A long, frequently fretted neck emerges from a small, resonator out of wood or tortoise shell and covered with animal hide." The stringed instruments were often depicted with naked women in the ancient Near East. Probably their sacredness comparable to the Great Goddess? Regards, N. Ganesan J. Braun lists many refs. including, Bathja Bayer, The material relics of music in ancient Palestine and its environs: An archaeological inventory, Tel Aviv, 1963 Anne Kilmer et al., Sounds from the Silence: Recent discoveries on ancient Near Eastern music, Berkeley, 1976 Claire Polin, Music in the ancient Near East, NY, 1954 S.A.Rashid, Musikgeschichte in Bildern; vol 3, Mesopotamien. Leipzig, 1984 Joan Rimmer, Ancient musical instruments of Western Asia in the British museum, 1969. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Jan 27 04:40:53 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 01 04:40:53 +0000 Subject: Arabian Goddesses Message-ID: <161227066817.23782.6586591389142973784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the book, "The Parthians" by the author Malcolm A.R. Colledge, there is a photograph of statues of three ladies (or may be one man in the middle and two ladies- I am not sure). The book described the photo as the religious relief of the goddess Allat between two acolytes above a lion from Hatra.The figure of Allat is imitated from Athena of Greek Art but transmuted in Parthian style. The two lesser goddesses raise their right hand in blessings. The height of statues is 1.28 meters and they are in Iraq museum. What puzzles me is that the dress of two lesser goddesses look like Indian saries and they look like wearing bangles.The middle figure is slightly taller than the side figures and has separate upper garment from the lower one having multiple folds (like Indian dhoti or sari)hanging from waist. It also has a cap like a cowherd boy while the lesser side goddesses have crowns.The Phoenix journal of 1965(vol.XI) has the same photo on page 226 with the title "Relief of Manat, al Lat, and al Uzza. To the best of my knowledge, the Prophet of Islam said these were the ladies of the exalted status from the very ancient history of Arabia.The kingdom of Hatra existed in the Middle-east around 1AD.Arabia was always in close contact with south India hundreds of years before Islam. Arabs were trade partners of India through the Red Sea.The question is-Are these Arabian Goddesses wearing Indian saries or Indian Goddesses wearing Arabian saries. Was there sari in India around 1AD? Before Islam there were temples of deities all over Middle-east. The Phoenix journal also shows the photos of King Sanatruq and his daughter Princess Wasfari. She also looks like wearing sari with the right hand raised in blessing and left hand holding to sari.She has a crown and nice long necklace.Around 250 AD another famous kingdom was established at Palmyra in Syro-Arabian desert by its first ruler Odenathus (Arabian- Udhaina). There were stories about Lunar race king Udayan in India.These Arab king had strong Armenian mixture in them from very ancient time (2000 BCE). Before 1AD Armenians were not Christians and of course they were not Muslims.There were Hurrian temples of the goddess Khebha sitting on lion. And the name of the governer of Jerusalem was Abdi-Kheba (the servant of Goddess- Devi-Bhritya).Ancient Hebrews were also influenced by Armenians.It is possible that the ancient Armenians and Georgians (these are different from Medes and Persians-Iranian-Aryans)might have deities in their temples. Thanks. From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Sat Jan 27 15:38:40 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 01 10:38:40 -0500 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066821.23782.13753345624751298847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By all means by the book, but don't take it seriously without also reading a few reputable works on related subjects, such as: 1. Mallory, JP, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans", 1989. 2. Erdosy, G, "Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia", 1997. 3. Deshpande, MM, and Bronkhorst, J, eds, "Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia", 1999 Try www.bookfinder.com for good prices on used books. Regards, Rohan Oberoi >Hi all! >I am thinking in buying the book of Cradle of Civilization by David Frawley, >and other two authors. >Any comments would be very appreciated. >Thank you!!! >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From meditaentuser at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 27 15:08:40 2001 From: meditaentuser at HOTMAIL.COM (Omar Jedi) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 01 15:08:40 +0000 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066819.23782.7106227171264783604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all! I am thinking in buying the book of Cradle of Civilization by David Frawley, and other two authors. Any comments would be very appreciated. Thank you!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jan 27 15:56:22 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 01 15:56:22 +0000 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066822.23782.12767994326210618262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Jan 27 15:29:03 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 01 16:29:03 +0100 Subject: SV: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066825.23782.15249908861449945925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Omar Jedi [SMTP:meditaentuser at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 27. januar 2001 16:09: > Hi all! > I am thinking in buying the book of Cradle of Civilization by David Frawley, > and other two authors. > Any comments would be very appreciated. Frawley is particularly popular with Hindu nationalists, but does not have a high standing among professional Indologists in general, at least not in the West. You may check the Indology archives for discussions concerning Frawley's views. My personal opinion is that he is not worth your money. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM Sun Jan 28 13:22:15 2001 From: vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM (vijay shankar) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 01 05:22:15 -0800 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066827.23782.9615908559402590613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also see Rajesh Kochhar:The Vedic People.Orient Longman,2000. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mcclanafan at AOL.COM Sun Jan 28 18:11:57 2001 From: mcclanafan at AOL.COM (Hilda McClanahan) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 01 18:11:57 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227066829.23782.4870184586864121686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Me newphew who is Belgian, has studied Indology in Leiden (The Netherlands) and Gent (Belgium) for his undergraduate studies. He wants to continue studying Indology and also wants to visit South America. Does anyone know of a University in South America that has a Department in Indology? Your reactions will be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your reply. Sincerely, Hilda McClanahan van Eggermont e-mail: mcclanafan at aol.com fax : 859-281 From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Jan 28 21:16:58 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 01 21:16:58 +0000 Subject: Cakra-varti Rajah Message-ID: <161227066831.23782.16039622090602833352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naram-Sin(2291-2255 BCE) in his reign chose the path of war and, at least for a while, was rewarded by success. To the title of 'King of Agade', he could proudly add those of 'King of the four regions(of the World)'(shar kibrat 'arbem) and 'King of Universe' (shar kishshati). Here the word 'shar' means a king. Is not this title similar to the title of the ancient Indian kings, namely Cakra-varti Rajah or Catur(four)-varti Rajah? It appears that kibret means four (Catur)and kishshati means Universe (Cakra-varti). His father Manishtusu (2306-2292 BCE) king of Kish subjugated Anshan and Shirikum (southwest Iran). In the known history in the middle of sixth century BCE, Cyrus the Great took similar title-King of Kings, King of Parshua and Anshan and Parshumas, King of four quarters.This title was known in the Middle-East for at least 2500 years. Now overland route linked India commercially with coasts of Greece as early as 4000 BCE. The excavations in ancient Sumer and Akkad have furnished evidence of this fact. The commercial relations of Akkadians reached in the Eat to India 2000 years before King Solomon's time. Teakwood from India has been recovered at Nippur from levels of 4000 BCE. So there is 3000 years' long history of India prior to the so-called meeting (around 1000 BCE) between horse riders(aryans) and Elephant riders (non-Aryans). Certainly the south India must be in contact with those Middle-east countries 3000 years prior to 1000 BCE.Now the Indian title Cakra-varti cannot be Dravidian because to the best of my knowledge sound combination like 'Cr' as in Cakra does not appear in Dravidian. So it appears that the title Cakra-varti was brought to India by Aryans. In that case Dravidians who knew Middle-east countries did not learn anything. It appears that they simply were faceless traders without any kings or titles like Cakra-varti Rajah. Could there be any explanation different from this? Thanks. From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Jan 28 23:58:26 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 01 23:58:26 +0000 Subject: Error Correction Message-ID: <161227066837.23782.9889091403611563593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for spelling errors! Here are the corrections. ....in the Eat should be read as --in the East. Also I meant sound combination 'kr'as in Cakra and not 'Cr'. Apology. From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jan 29 06:13:50 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 01:13:50 -0500 Subject: [looking for an article] In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010124094740.006c2cbc@pop-server.unil.ch> Message-ID: <161227066839.23782.7498413017922483290.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks everyone for helping me with the query as given below; the article is indeed contained in No.6/1 of "Darshana", issue January 1966. --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University >>Birgit Kellner wrote: >> Dear list-members, >> >> I am trying to locate the foolowing article: >> B.L.Sharma, "Paksata: the motivational conditions of inference >> according to Navya-Nyaya", Darshana 21, 1966, 103-107. >> >> From lel at LEL.MSK.RU Sun Jan 28 23:10:59 2001 From: lel at LEL.MSK.RU (iplel) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 02:10:59 +0300 Subject: Cakra-varti Rajah Message-ID: <161227066835.23782.5001779475844369272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Joshi Your attempt to interpret the word cakra (circle, a wheel) as four is very artificial and wrong. This political concept firstly, then the title cakravartin and sanskrit term cakra are well known in ancient (see, for example the concordance Vaidikapada), first of all, Buddhist literature. Its meaning is evident and can be interpreted as the 'whole world' in political concept and title. Its meaning in Arthashastra evident, too - see I.7.9, VI.2.39-40 where cakra is identified with other important political term, maNDala (circle, too), and especially IX.I.17-18 (cakravarti-kZetra). And in early epigraphy, as I know, this titul is not mentioned. Best wishes. D.Lielukhine, Moscow From mahipali at SLTNET.LK Sun Jan 28 22:26:54 2001 From: mahipali at SLTNET.LK (Mahinda Palihawadana) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 04:26:54 +0600 Subject: Skt verse on poet, poetaster and plagiarist Message-ID: <161227066833.23782.14390737383245601098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could any one help trace the source of the verse kavir anuharati-cchAyAm/ arthaM kukaviH/ padaM chauraH? (BTW this verse was used in a literary debate called kukavi-vAda in 1930s in Sri Lanka, the controversial purist Sinhala grammarian Munidasa Kmaratunga usng it to argue that the Sinhala scholar- poet ZrI RAhula was a poetaster and not a real poet, because many verses in his works contained ideas borrowed from Sanskrit poetry.) Thanks and best wishes. Mahinda Palihawadana From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 29 05:40:44 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 05:40:44 +0000 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066842.23782.10203141788685615366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From - >3. D.N.Jha's review of Trautman's Aryans and British India at >http://www.indolink.com/Book/archive.html "...some scholars in contemporary India have tried to whip up the Aryanness of the Hindus as against the followers of Islam. The degree of their success is difficult to assess but one thing is quite clear: the champions of the idea of the Aryan as a race in the biological sense today have much in common with our erstwhile imperial masters." The question is whether these said people think of Aryan as a "race in the biological sense", when they talk of the Aryanness of Hindus. For one, I doubt if many have the sophistication to distinguish a false idea of "biological race" from other equally (or more) false ideas of race. For another, inasmuch as they object to conversions of Hindus to other religions, they must surely agree that Muslims in India belong to the same "race(s)" as other Indians in their immediate neighbourhoods. As for Frawley, the author of the "Cradle of Civilization", he would share little with the erstwhile imperial masters of India. I think Trautmann (and Jha) have to talk of a different kind of Indomania, in the 20th and 21st centuries. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Jan 29 09:24:43 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 09:24:43 +0000 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066844.23782.2356938763204015054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:40:44 -0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >From - > >>3. D.N.Jha's review of Trautman's Aryans and British India at >>http://www.indolink.com/Book/archive.html > >"...some scholars in contemporary India have tried to whip up the Aryanness >of the Hindus as against the followers of Islam. The degree of their success >is difficult to assess but one thing is quite clear: the champions of the >idea of the Aryan as a race in the biological sense today have much in >common with our erstwhile imperial masters." > >The question is whether these said people think of Aryan as a "race >in the biological sense", when they talk of the Aryanness of Hindus. >For one, I doubt if many have the sophistication to distinguish a >false idea of "biological race" from other equally (or more) false >ideas of race. The American Anthropological association has decided that the idea of race itself is unscientific with no basis in biology and has asked the US Govt. to drop race as a category in census. From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jan 29 04:19:47 2001 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 09:49:47 +0530 Subject: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization Message-ID: <161227066840.23782.2205336369353272658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Also see 1.R.S. Sharma, Looking for the Aryans, Orient Longman, Chennai, 1994. 2. R.S. Sharma, Advent of the Aryans in India, Manohar, Delhi, 1999. 3. D.N.Jha's review of Trautman's Aryans and British India at http://www.indolink.com/Book/archive.html D.N.Jha ----- Original Message ----- From: vijay shankar To: Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Need comments on book Cradle of civilization > Also see > Rajesh Kochhar:The Vedic People.Orient Longman,2000. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 29 14:52:35 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 09:52:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Earthquake relief fund Message-ID: <161227066851.23782.8304087454261681724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Forwarded from SARAI. >X-Sender: 18009.jayesh at mail.propoor.org >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:15:55 +0800 >From: "Jayesh A. Parekh" >Subject: Earthquake relief fund >To: unlisted-recipients:; (no To-header on input) > >Dear Friends, > >As you know Gujarat has been devastated by an earthquake. >The aftershocks are continuing and affected people are living on >roads and fields. ProPoor is organizing relief in the form of >food, shelter and blankets in Ahmedabad and other parts of >Gujarat with the help of our Propoor Trust in Gujarat. > >Should you be interested in helping please send funds either >to Singapore or India per info below: > >1/ In Singapore: > >Mail your US dollars or Singapore dollars or Indian Rupees >cheque or bank draft to: > >"ProPoor Infotech Centre" >12 Prince Edward Road >#04-09 Podium B, >Bestway Building, >Singapore 079212. > >Phone: +(65) 227 1184 >Fax: +(65) 227 1180 >Email: jayesh at propoor.org >website: http://www.propoor.org > >DEPOSIT directly OR Wire Transfer into: > >Name of Bank: DBS Bank >The Development Bank of Singapore Ltd, >Shenton Way Branch, >6 Shenton Way, DBS Building, >Singapore 068809 >Phone: +(65) 220 1111 > >Account Name: ProPoor Infotech Centre > >Account Number: 0001-005340-01-9-022 USD > >Swift Code: DBSSSGSG or Telex No: RS 24455 > >If you wish to walk into any DBS Bank, they will gladly >deposit your Singapore dollars in the above account. > >We will collect all the funds in Singapore and wire transfer >the full amount to the Propoor Trust in Gujarat. > >2/ From India: > >Send Cheques/Checks/Bank Drafts to: > >"Propoor Infotech Centre Trust" >LIFE Building, Racecourse Ring Road, >Rajkot 360 001, Gujarat, India > >Account no: SB-7277 >The Lakshmi Vilas Bank Ltd >Malaviya Road >Rajkot 360 002, India > >3/ From outside Singapore/India: > >Please wire transfer to India in US dollars or Indian >Rupees to: > >Bank: HSBC Bank New York >Account no: 000-03381-2 >SWIFT: MRMDUS-33 >with advice to credit the amount to >Propoor Infotech Centre Trust, Rajkot >Account SB-7277 in The Lakshmi Vilas Bank Limited, >Malaviya Road, Rajkot, India. > > >The names of all the donors will be listed on the Propoor website: > >http://www.propoor.org > >Sincere thanks in advance for your help. >Please inform us of the amount deposited/sent so that we >can track each contribution. > >If you have friends who may want to help please forward this >message to them - cut & paste the information above. Thanks. >Sorry for any duplicate messages. > >warm regards, >Jayesh Parekh > >______________________________________ >ProPoor InfoTech Centre >12 Prince Edward Road >04-09 Podium B Bestway Bldg >Singapore 079212 > >Phone: +65-227-1184 Fax: 227-1180 >e-mail: jayesh at propoor.org >www.propoor.org >______________________________________ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jan 29 11:02:21 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 11:02:21 +0000 Subject: Buddhism Job in Canada (fwd) Message-ID: <161227066846.23782.3934330280645870517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Wilfrid Laurier University. The Department of Religion and Culture invites applications for a tenure stream appointment (subject to budgetary approval), commencing July 1, 2001. Candidates should be able to contribute to the understanding of contemporary religious diversity. The area of specialization is open, but the department has needs in the study of Buddhism, Islam, East Asian and Native traditions. Candidates should be qualified in the academic study of religion and be able to support the development of the Department's graduate and undergraduate programmes. Applicants must show evidence or promise of teaching ability, and of research and publication of sufficient quality to warrant appointment to the Graduate Faculty. The candidate is expected to have a completed PhD by the time of appointment. Applications, including curriculum vitae, transcripts, representative publications, and teaching dossier (e.g., course evaluations, course outlines), should be sent to Professor Michel Desjardins, Chair of the Search Committee, Department of Religion and Culture, Wilfrid Laurier University, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3C5, (5198840710, ext. 3323, . Letters assessing the applicant should be sent directly from three referees. Information about the Department can be found at the Religion and Culture website . The deadline for receipt of all materials is March 20, 2001. In accordance with Canadian immigration requirements, this advertisement is directed to Canadian citizens and permanent residents of Canada. Wilfrid Laurier University is committed to employment equity and welcomes applications from all qualified women and men, including persons in a visible minority, persons with disabilities, and aboriginal people. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jan 29 17:04:28 2001 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 12:04:28 -0500 Subject: RSG: India earthquake assistance info Message-ID: <161227066855.23782.10404262012626165938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: southasia at columbia.edu Colleagues, I am sure you have all been reading the papers on this tragedy, and probably have also been asked by friends about where they should contribute money. My advice is to go to the South Asian Journalists' Website (www.saja.org) where there is a box on the earthquite that includes links and suggestions. Phil Oldenburg From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Mon Jan 29 11:17:14 2001 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 12:17:14 +0100 Subject: Help With Texts Message-ID: <161227066848.23782.12547020799329626737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am having difficulty locating the following Sanskrit texts and was hoping someone might be able help me with acquiring copies of them. This is the information I have: 1. Caraka Samhita with Jejjata's commentary (2 vols., 1940-41) 2. Caraka Samhita with Yogindranatha's commentary. Two editions: 1. 3 vols. (incomplete): 1920-30 2. Jaipur, 1982. In particular, I need Cikitsasthana, Chapter 2 [in 4 parts (padas)], on vajikarana. If anyone can help, please respond to my personal email (below). Many thanks, Ken Zysk -- Kenneth G. Zysk University of Copenhagen Department of Asian Studies Leifsgade 33, 5 DK-Copenhagen S Denmark Phone: +45.35.32.88.32 FAX: +45.35.32.88.35 Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk If email fails use: zysk at spam.hum.ku.dk From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Mon Jan 29 11:28:47 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 12:28:47 +0100 Subject: Error Correction Message-ID: <161227066849.23782.1989811468674161222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Narayan R. Joshi, I am afraid your errors are not only those of spelling. You wrote: >It appears that kibret means four (Catur)... It is not kibrat (sic) that means "four", but arbaim (sic). This phrase, $ar kibrat(im) arbaim, means "king of the four edges/rims/shores" (of Mesopotamia), in Sumerian written as LUGAL.AN.UB.DA.LIMMU2.BA. Also, to think that Cakravarti has anything to do with relations between India and the Neolithic Near East of 4000 BC - if this is what you mean - is absurd. At this early date, there were no 'Aryan' speakers anywhere, no cities, no empires and therefore no "kings of the four edges of the world". Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: Narayan R.Joshi > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Error Correction > Date: 29. januar 2001 00:58 > > Sorry for spelling errors! Here are the corrections. ....in the Eat should > be read as --in the East. Also I meant sound combination 'kr'as in Cakra > and not 'Cr'. Apology. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 29 15:10:54 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 15:10:54 +0000 Subject: godhUli and goloka Message-ID: <161227066853.23782.13132769431591235055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In one of the early Tamil attestations of go-dhUli, the cattle herds of the Kongars going to water fords producing much of godhuuli, and that cow-dust goes to fill up the skies. van2pulam tumiya pOki kogkar paTu maNi Ayam nIrkku nimirntu cellum cEtu A eTutta ce nila kurUu tukaL akal iru vicumpin2 Un2Ri tOn2Rum -akanAn2URu 79:5-8 In a slightly later poem quoted by the ancient grammar TolkAppiyam commentator, the godhUli is praised heavily: the gifting of cattle herds with cows and calves to brahmins creates a goloka on this very bhUloka! The gifted herds raise so much godhUli that the dust makes the goloka in the skies get covered with soil dust from the bhUloka with the end result that the goloka appears to be bhUloka! Have seen published paintings (Pahari, Rajsthani) where Krishna comes to the village with the herds in the evening. The godhUli cherished by gopas and gopikAs. Are there descriptions in Sanskrit (epics?) where the godhUli (eg., Krishna's herds) from the bhUloka are said to reach goloka, part of Heaven? Many thanks. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jan 29 17:20:39 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 17:20:39 +0000 Subject: Earthquake Relief Fund: Address to send Contributions Message-ID: <161227066856.23782.14539490463500894247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please send your generous and kind contibutions to India's Earth Quake Relief Fund. Please make checks payable to "Millennium Festival-ICC(earthquake)" and mail the checks to Ms. Simran Singh, Indian Consulate, 1990 Post Oak Blvd, #600, Houston, TX 77056. In the USA, Contact phone numbers: 281 499-4931, 281-568-4995, 281 933-6169,713 988-5140 and 713 468-4339 Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Tue Jan 30 00:01:20 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 01 19:01:20 -0500 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066858.23782.6000997940918332914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dead Language Talking by Manu Joseph 2:00 a.m. Jan. 29, 2001 PST MUMBAI, India -- Some of the most forward-looking engineering students in India will soon be learning the ancient language of Sanskrit. The decision by the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Delhi to offer science courses based on Sanskrit teachings is raising eyebrows at a school that is essentially India's answer to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. After all, there are no treatises in Sanskrit on nuclear physics or genetic engineering. Or as one undergraduate put it, "Yes, I know Sanskrit. It's an ancient Indian language, right? But we're all too preoccupied with learning here. We don't want Sanskrit," he said. But the idea isn't to counter science as we know it today, its backers say. It's to widen the spectrum of the student's database, and to give them a sense that Indians didn't begin learning about science the day the English colonized them. Ancient Indians are credited with having made amazing discoveries in astronomy, architecture, medicine and other fields. They had a unique method of calculation, which is now called Vedic Mathematics. Most of the information of that age was recorded in Sanskrit -- a language that hasn't been widely used in a thousand years. "Our notion of science comes from (the) West, in the same way that our notion of education, politics, literature, et cetera, come from the West," said Wagish Shukla, a mathematics professor at IIT, Delhi, who is also a Sanskrit scholar. "We have become an intellectual colony of the West under amnesia, regarding the knowledge society we were. "The problem today is that inputs from Sanskrit are disenfranchised from our education. For instance, when a student wants to understand a particular issue, he or she is debarred from finding out what Vedanta or Nyaya or Mimamsa (ancient Indian knowledge bases) has to say about it." Two courses have been proposed: Knowledge Orders in Sanskrit Texts and Building Scientific Discourse the Indian Way. The courses will concentrate on how Indian thinkers approached and developed academic discipline. For instance, what did they mean by "proof," "observation," "rule" and other scientific definitions. "There are things of value in Sanskrit texts," Shukla said. "They will have to be annotated and retold for the contemporary science worker. Translations of Sanskrit texts make no attempt to integrate that knowledge into a usable product for the present-day worker in science. In any case, most of the Sanskrit texts, have not even been published." He also pointed out that some original Sanskrit texts will be discussed -- "perhaps through English" -- for a better understanding. That's no consolation for many students in IIT (Delhi). There are murmurs of muffled protests, but since it is an elective the students can simply avoid it. "Going back to the roots is all fine, but I don't think I will take up Sanskrit," said Subhajit Sanyal, a Ph.D. student in the computer science department in IIT, Delhi. "There are some students who are very curious to explore what old Indian texts have to say about various things, but such guys are very few." While the IIT administration has confirmed that it will be including Sanskrit courses soon, the exact time of inception is yet to be finalized. There are six Indian Institutes of Technology in different parts of the country, but at this point only the Delhi campus has decided to include Sanskrit in the curriculum for undergraduate, postgraduate and doctorate students. Sanskrit is taught at other universities throughout the country, but not in the context of using it to understand scientific and mathematic principles. Sanskrit is believed to be over 3,000 years old. It constantly evolved throughout its long history. By about 1000 AD, original Sanskrit had almost vanished and given way to newer Indian languages that had evolved along the way. The 1951 Indian census report said that among a population of 362 million Indians, only 555 spoke Sanskrit. Today, those who understand or speak Sanskrit are predominantly academicians concerned with the subject. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Nothing soothes me more after a long and maddening course of pianoforte recitals than to sit and have my teeth drilled. ... George Bernard Shaw From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 01:38:43 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 01:38:43 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066860.23782.11647981875577783355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Only in India does anything to do with Sanskrit evoke a negative response in the hands of know-it-all commentators. American universities have a humanities and social science requirement, every term, for science and engineering majors. Courses offered typically include Chinese, Japanese, French and Russian languages, in addition to psychology, economics, philosophy etc. Nobody complains about aerospace technology in old Chinese texts or about nuclear engineering in French. The IITs have only a few required courses for freshmen, and two elective courses for seniors. What is so very wrong with offering an elective on nyAya and other Indian schools, when the IITs already offer elective courses on Aristotle, Hegel, Kant and Russell? Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Jan 30 01:41:51 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 01:41:51 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066862.23782.13399464505058079912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic quoted: > "There are things of value in Sanskrit texts," Shukla said. "They will have > to be annotated and retold for the contemporary science worker. This sounds really interesting -- one awaits the results with great curiosity ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Jan 30 04:42:35 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 04:42:35 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066865.23782.4229006950618871946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm also told that the Bhagavad Gita is extremely popular at one of the Indian Institutes of Management. Horror of horrors ! How can this be permitted ? The Gita isn't used at Wharton or at Stanford. Only Indologists and descendants of the flower children pay any attention to that primitive superstitious book. Quick, let us find a Times of India correspondent to write about it. We should point out that IIM using the Gita is antiquated, irrelevant, anti-secular, anti- Muslim, Hindu revivalist, caste-ist, fascist. The Gita is written in a dead language which no respectable person should want to learn. A few sneers will help. --- Such are the disasters that are born in India. I think "Paritranaya sadhunam..." etc., is long overdue. -Arun Gupta From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 12:36:38 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 07:36:38 -0500 Subject: Information on book needed Message-ID: <161227066874.23782.7902129371640105283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A while ago I came across a reference to a book about the training of a Vaidika in a Vedashala but I can no longer find the reference. As far as I can remember the title was something like "The Making of a Vaidika"? or "The Making of a Vaidika in 'some area of India' "? . Searching the Library of Congress website didn't turn up anything. If any of the members recognize this can they give me the bibliographic reference. Also if anyone knows of any books or articles on the training of Vaidikas can they also let me know about those. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Tue Jan 30 13:13:49 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 08:13:49 -0500 Subject: Did you hear this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066877.23782.13148364861300079615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta has written as follows: >I'm also told that the Bhagavad Gita is extremely popular at one of the >Indian Institutes of Management. You are confused about the issue. Gita is a religious text regardless of which language it is written and has no place in secular studies any where. > >Horror of horrors ! How can this be permitted ? The Gita isn't used at >Wharton or at Stanford. Only Indologists and descendants of the flower >children pay any attention to that primitive superstitious book. Quick, let >us find a Times of India correspondent to write about it. We should point >out that IIM using the Gita is antiquated, irrelevant, anti-secular, anti- >Muslim, Hindu revivalist, caste-ist, fascist. You are unwittingly right so far but no more in the next sentence. >The Gita is written in a dead >language which no respectable person should want to learn. A few sneers will >help. > Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: 4th Rule of Bureaucracy: Information deteriorates upward. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Tue Jan 30 13:19:52 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 08:19:52 -0500 Subject: Did you hear this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066880.23782.10962584705480884774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan has written as follows: >In India, if Establishment is to be rejected, then students will demand >sanskrit since the "secular" Establishment in India is very anti-sanskrit. >Any idea of sanskrit evokes images of molten lead down the ears a la Manu This is your imagination. I have no evidence to accept that Indian "establishment" is anti-sanskrit. If anything, it is either pro-British English or pro-native languages. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: What part of my brilliance don't you understand. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Jan 30 16:30:21 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 08:30:21 -0800 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066883.23782.15925959676272721117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Arun Gupta wrote: > I'm also told that the Bhagavad Gita is extremely > popular at one of the > Indian Institutes of Management. > > Horror of horrors ! How can this be permitted ? But that's precisely the point :) Why should students of IIT read the Gita? Isn't there enough religion/ popular philosophy already in the ambience promoting the "hum kitne mahaan the" worldview? In any case, if they don't read the Gita in the IIT, it's not a major problem. We have it on Vidyasankar's authority that they all end up in the US. There's enough Gita in the Indian community here to last them a lifetime :) Why should IIT students learn Sanskrit? If they must learn languages, why not modern Indian languages? What's wrong with 21st (or the 20th) century that one must go back in time? Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET Tue Jan 30 03:07:45 2001 From: xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET (Francis Parmar) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 08:37:45 +0530 Subject: Earthquake Relief Fund: Address to send Contributions Message-ID: <161227066864.23782.1621641760416201208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, It is quite heartening for us in Ahmedabad and Gujarat to realise that people from all over are concerned and want to help. A lot of help is pouring in for the immediate relief in areas that have got media attention. I believe more needs to be done for far flung smaller towns and villages that have received no media attention. Besides, long term rehabilitation is another area that needs to be thought of. Some sort of adoption of an area may be of help. Once more, thanks for the concern expressed. Francis Parmar, SJ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 30 09:21:39 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 10:21:39 +0100 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066867.23782.9689918429581587793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. januar 2001 02:39: > Only in India does anything to do with Sanskrit evoke a > negative response in the hands of know-it-all commentators. It is tempting to mention a parallel phenomenon. In he 70's, Norwegian students rebelled against the obligatory course in Latin for students in the Humanities (apart from budding doctors, who received a stripped down course, we never burdened the "scientists" with such niceties). In spite of the importance of Latin for the study of European languages and history (just think of the sources in that language), our students decided that it was a completely unnecessary burden and should be replaced by something "relevant". They had their way. Today, not even doctors learn any Latin, and are reportedly unable to communicate with foreign colleagues in the usual professional jargon. I suspect that Sanskrit in India is regarded much like Latin here: something dusty and irrelevant. And I also suspect that an attempt to introduce it as an elective is likely to fail. Unless special privileges are granted to people who know Sanskrit, in other words: unless it pays off, I don't think the new initiative will cut much dice among up-and-forward moving new technologists. They have better things to do. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Jan 30 10:27:49 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 10:27:49 +0000 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066869.23782.11564365022759862047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:21:39 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. januar 2001 >02:39: >> Only in India does anything to do with Sanskrit evoke a >> negative response in the hands of know-it-all commentators. > >It is tempting to mention a parallel phenomenon. In he 70's, Norwegian >students rebelled against the obligatory course in Latin for students in >the Humanities I have also heard that students in other european countries rebelled against the teaching of Latin. This was part of student protests in the 1960s in many countries against the Establishment. Rejecting Latin was part of rejecting Establishment. In India, if Establishment is to be rejected, then students will demand sanskrit since the "secular" Establishment in India is very anti-sanskrit. Any idea of sanskrit evokes images of molten lead down the ears a la Manu From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 12:02:44 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 12:02:44 +0000 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066872.23782.4380231662782701847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >unless it pays off, I don't think the new initiative will cut much dice >among up-and-forward moving new technologists. They have better things to >do. Actually, I am surprised that one elective course out of some thirty plus elective courses available to students at one IIT out of six makes such news. Out of a few hundred graduating students per year, about thirty students sign up on average, for each such elective. The less popular ones get about five students and still remain on the course catalogs. Big deal ... As for better things to do, senior students tend to take those electives in which they can get by easily, without having to work hard. Their attention is on applying to graduate school (abroad) and looking for jobs. Vidyasankar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jan 30 11:03:17 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 12:03:17 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066871.23782.2246882514913609687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan [SMTP:vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK] skrev 30. januar 2001 11:28: > > I have also heard that students in other european countries rebelled > against the teaching of Latin. This was part of student protests in the > 1960s in many countries against the Establishment. Rejecting Latin was part > of rejecting Establishment. > > In India, if Establishment is to be rejected, then students will demand > sanskrit since the "secular" Establishment in India is very anti-sanskrit. > Any idea of sanskrit evokes images of molten lead down the ears a la Manu I think India's business and technology community may have more prosaic reasons for rejecting Sanskrit: money. There is not much money-making to be had from Vedic mathematics or any other part of India's ancient science history. Old knowledge, in India as elsewhere, is simply obsolete or superseded. What matters, all the time, is new knowledge, the latest stuff. If you want to hang on, that will take most of your time. Old knowledge are for historians of various kinds. Interesting enough, but not exactly a money-making machine. I don't think there will be much success with the business/technology community. But the future will tell! All the best, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 18:37:18 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 13:37:18 -0500 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066887.23782.13569077082628325899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think we are missing several pooints. India became colonized precisely because its "materialistic" technology got outdated. So there is nothing wrong if engineers leave India to US to acquire the technology. As long as intellectual property rights are not violated, there is nothing wrong for these migrants to pass on technology to India via joint ventures etc, as is happening now at Silicon Valley. Again not miss another important point, the materialistic progress is also dependent upon the base which is spiritual technology. The western materialistic progress is based on centuries of philosophical and other foundations of Aristotle, Socrates et,al. Can any one say the spiritual technology of Aristotel is obsolete? On the contrary Aristotle has made a strong come back when his panspermia (sperms in space) has become the foundation for "Intelligent Desgin" and struck a death blow to Darwinism on one hand and something-out-of-nothing Creationism on the other hand. I do claim that the thoery of jAtavedas (Ai.Br), which proposes that beings are pre-conceived according to a cosmic logic; which clearly precedes Aristotle, can be a good starting point for those who care. Now about "those who care": There is a story of a crab exporter in India who dispatched crabs in open containers without lids and saved money. The crabs reached the destination intact, and everybody wondered how. It was explained that if one crab was going up another one pulled it back. Never mind the cynicism, I think the Govt of India is trying to prove where the money is. Irrespective of the outcome the importance given to Sanskrit will create a demand for teachers, and a competitive effect on other local languages.. generating the much feared supply side economics. By the way India doen't always need "latest" technology. There is also another thing called "appropriate technology" which is a logical corollary of supply side economics, and uses what is available in abundance instead of the "latest". Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Tue Jan 30 11:57:58 2001 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 13:57:58 +0200 Subject: Skt verse on poet, poetaster and plagiarist In-Reply-To: <200101282226.f0SMQrL12103@laknet.slt.lk> Message-ID: <161227066876.23782.1586290601514634679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An ironical stanza in the Aaryaa metre beginning with the words kavir anuharati cchaayaa.m is found in the modern collection Subhaa.sita-ratna-bhaa.n.d.aagaara edited by Naaraaya.n Raam Aachaarya, 8th edition, Bombay: Nirnaya Sagar Press, 1952, p. 37, stanza no. 12 (unfortunately without giving the source): kavir anuharati cchaayaa.m padam eka.m paadam ekam ardha.m vaa | sakalaprabandhahartre saahasakartre namas tasmai || "A poet imitates the idea ("shadow"), [viz.,] one word, one line, or one half. Obeissance [however,] to this thief of a whole literary work, the doer of a criminal act!" With best regards, Roland Steiner From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 14:43:12 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 14:43:12 +0000 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066882.23782.16224724056346624016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I did not see this mentioned: In the USA, many Doctoral programs required a modern European language learning. People, esp. Asians, used to be afraid of it. In my own field (Structural Dynamics of Aeronautical structures), PhD students needed to know languages like German. I graduated from a program started by von Braun, Bernard Goethert, ... ('Doc' Bernard always loved Indians, he visited our dorm many times). Transonic flow, windtunnel studies etc. etc., used to be in German journals lot of times. But things have changed, PC and Computers are largely responsible for it. Most of the Doctoral programs in Sciences and Engg. have dropped off the European language requirement altogether. Even in Humanities, there is a problem in the US: H. Schiffman told me that hard to sustain teaching any language in the US because it is very antognistic to any language except English. So, while the trend in the US universities is to move away from modern languages enriched in Science/Engg. research, in India the trend seems to be opposite. In any case, if Sanskrit is taught in Engg. Instituitions, classical literature from Tamil and other Indian languages can also be included as electives. Regards, N. Ganesan <<<<<< Vidyasankar Sundaresan skrev: > Only in India does anything to do with Sanskrit evoke a > negative response in the hands of know-it-all commentators. It is tempting to mention a parallel phenomenon. In he 70's, Norwegian students rebelled against the obligatory course in Latin for students in the Humanities (apart from budding doctors, who received a stripped down course, we never burdened the "scientists" with such niceties). In spite of the importance of Latin for the study of European languages and history (just think of the sources in that language), our students decided that it was a completely unnecessary burden and should be replaced by something "relevant". They had their way. Today, not even doctors learn any Latin, and are reportedly unable to communicate with foreign colleagues in the usual professional jargon. I suspect that Sanskrit in India is regarded much like Latin here: something dusty and irrelevant. And I also suspect that an attempt to introduce it as an elective is likely to fail. Unless special privileges are granted to people who know Sanskrit, in other words: unless it pays off, I don't think the new initiative will cut much dice among up-and-forward moving new technologists. They have better things to do. Lars Martin Fosse _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jan 30 16:42:14 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 16:42:14 +0000 Subject: Japanese scholar's work on Kerala Message-ID: <161227066885.23782.7846339078416306245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was given pointers for URLs on the work among Kerala groups done by a scholar from Japan. http://www.fasid.or.jp/public/ancestor.html http://www.fasid.or.jp/public/twisted.html May be of interest to some Indologists, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Tue Jan 30 19:24:43 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 01 19:24:43 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066889.23782.5731881096613063558.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >But that's precisely the point :) Why should students >of IIT read the Gita? Isn't there enough religion/ >popular philosophy already in the ambience promoting >the "hum kitne mahaan the" worldview? A. It is an elective, and not compulsary. B. Management folks apparently find something useful in the Gita. (For that matter they find useful things in Zen.) Why deny them ? C. An unrealistic view of "Hum kitne mahaan the" stems from ignorance. Knowledge is the only way around it. A little education will keep us technical sorts from coming and bothering Indology :-):-) D. Most of our education is "Wo log kitne mahaan the", and this causes a lot of minds to lose their balance. Far too many Indians suffer from one complex or another fostered by the current education system. E. IIT students should have the opportunity to learn Sanskrit, if they want to. Instead, we had the situation e.g., in IIT Madras, when I was there, the only language courses were German and (remedial) English; not even modern Indian languages. F. Other Indian language courses will follow a Sanskrit offering. The whole colonial (West is the only good) mindset has to change. The Marxist mindset (anything Indian is bad) has to change. -Arun Gupta From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 31 00:53:18 2001 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 00:53:18 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066891.23782.11727643117157238957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: > > Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan has written as follows: > >In India, if Establishment is to be rejected, then students will demand > >sanskrit since the "secular" Establishment in India is very anti-sanskrit. > >Any idea of sanskrit evokes images of molten lead down the ears a la Manu > > This is your imagination. > I have no evidence to accept that Indian "establishment" is anti-sanskrit. > If anything, it is either pro-British English or pro-native languages. Evidence: A premier institution established to create think tanks, and policy makers and academics, the JNU, is yet to begin teaching Sanskrit at any level. It has had a full School of Languages and Culture but without Sanskrit. No matter of chance, a matter of deliberate choice made to demean sanskrit. The Nehruvian mind-set had no place for sanskrit. best, Bharat Gupt,Associate Professor,Delhi University, PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA.mobile:9810077914 tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 06:12:28 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 01:12:28 -0500 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066902.23782.4588905779626975649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Rohit Chopra >denouncing the Nehruvian vision as 'western' or 'elitist'. 'western' and 'technology' are not the problems. But 'elitist' is. Elitism is a belief that managers are born. I have seen this elitism ingrained in Indian public sector. Management is taught in schools because it was proven that managers can be made. Ofcourse brahminism can also be accused as elitist, but the accusation is true only for a brahmin who does not know his books. Elite or not, a brahmin is expected to be detached first, then he excercises the authority. Those who accuse Nehru to elitism expected a little more detachment from him and his followers. It could have worked wonders and avoided the rise of Hindutva. Isn't the same lack of detachment also seen in the current leaders who claim Nehru's heritage? Attachment is a silent demoralizer. It drains confidence of people in themselves. >Why not other languages This question is similar to "Why Ram mandir? Why not kriSNa janmasthan?". Work on the most unacceptable one, the rest will get accepted with no effort(!) I believe Sanskrit is important because a lot of literature is in that language. Best, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 02:08:31 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 02:08:31 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066893.23782.9577310543202019077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >No matter of chance, a matter of deliberate choice made to demean sanskrit. >The Nehruvian mind-set had no place for sanskrit. > >best, > >Bharat Gupt,Associate Professor,Delhi University, Dear Professor Gupt, Could you please elaborate what you mean by the 'Nehruvian mindset'? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 03:01:26 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 03:01:26 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066896.23782.9381771811692120767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >communalists still proceed with their venture. Those who are against them >ideologically are evaded. Recently, an international Bhagavad Gita seminar >was organised in my city, Trivandrum. As everyone knows, Gita is one of the >Prasthanatraya on which Vedanta is based. My centre, the Centre for Vedanta >Studies, of the University of Kerala, which is a unique centre, was not >even informed about the event, not to speak of being invited to Dear Prof. Nair, You probably got off better for not having been invited/informed. This was the "international conference" that "unanimously" passed a resolution to label the Gita as India's "national scripture" - a very stupid attempt to create an illusion of a "kitAbI" religion. The range of people associated with this "international conference" was amazing - from Justice V. R. Krishna Iyer of Marxist sympathies to a few contemporary Swamis with VHP sympathies. I doubt if any sensible person would have been able to make a positive impact upon such strange bedfellows. Not that the said "conference" has made an impact upon anything in India, besides passing meaningless resolutions. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 03:30:41 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 03:30:41 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066898.23782.604124010467212662.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr K.Maheswaran Nair Thank you. I agree entirely with whatever you say. I believe Sanskrit should be taught as a subject in all humanities and higher educational institutes in India. The demagogues of the Sangh Parivar have hijacked and communalised Sanskrit, using it as an emblem of their ideology. Sanskrit thus becomes a weapon in the hands of the pro-Sangh Parivar and Hindutva brigade, who use it to attack the Indian left and secularists or the 'westernized elite'. The latter are falsely accused of being anti-Sanskrit and by implication anti-India. But, one can wholeheartedly endorse that Sanskrit should be taught in India and also be secular at the same time. One can also be comfortable with elements of 'western' civilization, which whether we like it or not, have played a role in our history due to the unfortunate historical reality of colonization. In fact, a lot of people who take a pro-Hindutva stand seem to have no problems reaping the fruits of western technology, whether in computing or medicine, while at the same time denouncing the Nehruvian vision as 'western' or 'elitist'. If I understand correctly, the Nehruvian vision included a strong emphasis on technological and scientific development through an emphasis on industrialisation. Industrialisation as a historical phenomenon originated in the west, at least the last I heard. Whether the Nehruvian emphasis on technology translated into unqualified success is debatable, as the reliance of Indian industry on imports and license-Raj bureacracy were impediments. It is hoped that the so-called 'knowledge economy' may fulfill that earlier promise, though of course, it will not benefit most of India's citizens. Thus those of us who criticize and rubbish the Nehruvian vision as elitist, should not forget that, by the same standards applied, all of us too are 'elitist'. I should also point out that it is the Nehruvian vision which it makes it possible for all of us today - whether we be in India or abroad (in the west or elsewhere) to have this conversation on this online discussion forum. However, one question about Sanskrit which you would be in the best position to answer. I do not have a background in the language or the historical context in which it emerged as an Indian language; neither am I versed with the diachronic or synchronic linguistic work on it. However, I do have some understanding, background and training in Indian history. I believe Sanskrit was an elitist language, akin to Latin or Greek. It was a Brahmanical language and the language of the people, at specific historical moments were other languages, such as Pali. Why is it that just Sanskrit should be taught? Why not other languages that have been forgotten? I agree that a vast number of great texts have been written in Sanskrit, but is it not elitist to dismiss the works in other languages as comparatively irrelevant in the sense of not being worthy for much-needed resuscitation. Is that not elitist, since it makes the presumption that the language of the Brahmanical and privileged castes is authentically Indian and thus worth preserving, whereas the languages of other, comparatively less privileged segments of society - the common people - are not? I will draw an analogy from the 'west' - which will annoy some on this list, but it is only an analogy and is used here for purely heuristic value. In medieval Europe, Latin was the privileged language in several European languages and other languages, vernaculars such as French were looked down upon. Again, it is undeniable that a majority of seminal texts were written in Latin; however there was also equally wonderful work written in these other languages. Did not the same happen in India? Should we then not call for the teaching of all ancient and neglected Indian languages; should we not also call for a revival of more recent but neglected languages and 'dialects' such as Hindustani and Urdu (many of which I believe are artifically termed dialects and are thus denied the privileges accorded to 'languages'). I would also like to raise another point here to pre-empt a section of pro-RSS pro Hindutva advocates who communalize language issues in India. This segment will often not consider Urdu a legitimate Indian language based on the communal assumptions. My own understanding is that Urdu is an Indian (and also a Pakistani) language since it was the language of a region that covered what is now both India and Pakistan. Thus Punjabi Hindus, in my grandparents generation, learnt Urdu as a first language. In fact, Hindustani - the language with words with Sanskrit, and Urdu roots as well as Persian and Arabic etymological connections is a more representative North Indian language than the completely artifical Sanskritized Doordarshan Hindi which unfortunately has become the only 'authentic' version of Hindi that the Indian state endorses. This is not meant as a criticism of Sanskrit, but only to point another instance of how languages, contemporary and ancient, have been used as political tools in the politics of post-Independence India. Once again thanks for your mail. It is heartening to see non-communal views. >From: Swantham >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Did you hear this? >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:10:09 +0530 > >For whom tolls the bell? >Hello, >The Amarakosa says "Samskrtam krtrime" and so it has ever been a mother >tongue of any people. Sanskrit has been politicised in India. It is used by >the Hindu communalists as an instrument to rally people behind them. >Sanskrit is taught in ten days in the so-called 'Sibirams' and those who >attended such sibirams speak anything and everything as if it is Sanskrit. >Sanskrit is in this way, being corrupted everyday in India. But the Hindu >communalists still proceed with their venture. Those who are against them >ideologically are evaded. Recently, an international Bhagavad Gita seminar >was organised in my city, Trivandrum. As everyone knows, Gita is one of the >Prasthanatraya on which Vedanta is based. My centre, the Centre for Vedanta >Studies, of the University of Kerala, which is a unique centre, was not >even informed about the event, not to speak of being invited to >participate. At the same time, I was invited by the Bylorussian >Metropolitan-sponsored Theology Dept. of the European Humanities >University, Minsk to deliver lectures on Vedanta. My experience is that >Sanskrit as such is being protected by scholars outside India rather than >the Hindu communalists here. I don't think that all Sanskritists in India >are on the part of the communalists. Recently when there was a Sanskrit >students conference at Sampurnand University, Benares organised by the >'hidden communal forces', students revolted, which is a good sign. The >regime is extending their efforts to implement their 'hidden agenda' in the >field of Sanskrit studies also. Alert! >With regards, >Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair >Professor of Sanskrit & >Director, >Centre for Vedanta Studies, >University of Kerala, >Kariavattom P.O. >Trivandrum. >---------- > > From: Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic > > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > > Subject: Did you hear this? > > Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 5:31 AM > > > > Dead Language Talking by Manu Joseph > > > > 2:00 a.m. Jan. 29, 2001 PST > > > > MUMBAI, India -- Some of the most forward-looking engineering students >in > > India will soon be learning the ancient language of Sanskrit. > > > > The decision by the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Delhi to >offer > > science courses based on Sanskrit teachings is raising eyebrows at a >school > > that is essentially India's answer to the Massachusetts Institute of > > Technology. After all, there are no treatises in Sanskrit on nuclear >physics > > or genetic engineering. > > > > Or as one undergraduate put it, "Yes, I know Sanskrit. It's an ancient > > Indian language, right? But we're all too preoccupied with learning >here. >We > > don't want Sanskrit," he said. > > > > > > But the idea isn't to counter science as we know it today, its backers >say. > > It's to widen the spectrum of the student's database, and to give them a > > sense that Indians didn't begin learning about science the day the >English > > colonized them. > > > > Ancient Indians are credited with having made amazing discoveries in > > astronomy, architecture, medicine and other fields. They had a unique >method > > of calculation, which is now called Vedic Mathematics. > > > > Most of the information of that age was recorded in Sanskrit -- a >language > > that hasn't been widely used in a thousand years. > > > > "Our notion of science comes from (the) West, in the same way that our > > notion of education, politics, literature, et cetera, come from the >West," > > said Wagish Shukla, a mathematics professor at IIT, Delhi, who is also a > > Sanskrit scholar. "We have become an intellectual colony of the West >under > > amnesia, regarding the knowledge society we were. > > > > "The problem today is that inputs from Sanskrit are disenfranchised from >our > > education. For instance, when a student wants to understand a particular > > issue, he or she is debarred from finding out what Vedanta or Nyaya or > > Mimamsa (ancient Indian knowledge bases) has to say about it." > > > > Two courses have been proposed: Knowledge Orders in Sanskrit Texts and > > Building Scientific Discourse the Indian Way. > > > > The courses will concentrate on how Indian thinkers approached and >developed > > academic discipline. For instance, what did they mean by "proof," > > "observation," "rule" and other scientific definitions. > > > > "There are things of value in Sanskrit texts," Shukla said. "They will >have > > to be annotated and retold for the contemporary science worker. >Translations > > of Sanskrit texts make no attempt to integrate that knowledge into a >usable > > product for the present-day worker in science. In any case, most of the > > Sanskrit texts, have not even been published." > > > > > > He also pointed out that some original Sanskrit texts will be discussed >-- > > "perhaps through English" -- for a better understanding. That's no > > consolation for many students in IIT (Delhi). There are murmurs of >muffled > > protests, but since it is an elective the students can simply avoid it. > > > > "Going back to the roots is all fine, but I don't think I will take up > > Sanskrit," said Subhajit Sanyal, a Ph.D. student in the computer science > > department in IIT, Delhi. "There are some students who are very curious >to > > explore what old Indian texts have to say about various things, but such > > guys are very few." > > > > While the IIT administration has confirmed that it will be including > > Sanskrit courses soon, the exact time of inception is yet to be >finalized. > > > > There are six Indian Institutes of Technology in different parts of the > > country, but at this point only the Delhi campus has decided to include > > Sanskrit in the curriculum for undergraduate, postgraduate and doctorate > > students. > > > > Sanskrit is taught at other universities throughout the country, but >not >in > > the context of using it to understand scientific and mathematic >principles. > > > > Sanskrit is believed to be over 3,000 years old. It constantly evolved > > throughout its long history. By about 1000 AD, original Sanskrit had >almost > > vanished and given way to newer Indian languages that had evolved along >the > > way. > > > > The 1951 Indian census report said that among a population of 362 >million > > Indians, only 555 spoke Sanskrit. Today, those who understand or speak > > Sanskrit are predominantly academicians concerned with the subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > Have a peaceful and joyous day. > > Aditya Mishra > > Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org > > Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya > > ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 > > Random thought of the day: > > Nothing soothes me more after a long and maddening course of >pianoforte recitals than to sit and have my teeth drilled. ... George >Bernard Shaw _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Jan 31 08:52:07 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 03:52:07 -0500 Subject: How Earthquake affects the poor Message-ID: <161227066904.23782.5801593650356743038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While all of us are saddened by the catastrophe, I find this article in Rediff equally timely to remind us that we are not facing just one calamity. Poor take to scavenging for buried riches Josy Joseph in Ahmedabad Several poor people in the city are searching for treasures in the debris of dream-houses and plush apartments that came down on January 26 in the massive earthquake. Overnight, scavenging has become a full-time engagement for several hundred people, most of them living in the shanties lining the Sabarmati river. "Yesterday I made Rs 500," says Jagdish, dressed in a torn T-shirt and a pair of faded jeans. He admits openly that he could never have dreamt of making so much a money in a day, if not for the earthquake. His hands are proof of his hard work: the left palm is wrapped in dirty bandage, which covers a deep wound he sustained while searching the debris of apartments and other buildings. He is just one among the many hundreds in the city who are searching for anything, from treasures to mangled iron pieces, to make a living. Jagdish, a vegetable vendor till the day of the earthquake, earned his Rs 500 from selling several kilogrammes of iron scrap. "Some of the flats have collapsed, and there are no people in other apartments, so where can I sell my vegetables?" Jagdish justifies his new-found vocation. While some of the best-known apartments of the city have either fully or partially collapsed, others are lying vacant. Residents are spending their day and night out in the open, or in their vehicles, for fear of another quake. Says Dinesh Purabia, another one scavenging in the debris near Sardar Patel Bridge at Paldi, on the Sabarmati, "My house too has developed cracks and there is no job to do. So I am searching here." Jessi Solanki, a young woman feverishly rummaging through the debris, is unmindful of injuries or dangers that it could pose. "If I can make about Rs 50, we can have a good dinner. How else will I feed my kids?" The main dumping site for the city's debris is one side of the bridge where, even as thousands stare down from above, the scavengers fight it out with the police for going through the debris. Pratap Paramar shows a bleeding cut on his nose. "They beat me with lathis," he says. "The policemen are chasing us away not for nothing. They are also searching the debris for valuable items," Pratap says, trying to bite down his pain. "Some policemen have even got silver and gold ornaments from here. That is why they want the poor like us to leave," he claims. The earthquake did no harm to them. "It is the rich who have died. I was out in the open, my family and I did not face any problems," says Pratap. Most of the scavengers at the site are from the nearby slum cluster of Kagdivad. Police officials, placed on special duty by the municipal commissioner, say the scavengers are "a nuisance, they are disturbing our work". Meanwhile, the residents of the city are also increasingly facing the menace of theft. With their valuables dumped mostly in cars, the residents are spending their nights out in the open, exposed to easy theft. "A few of my neighbours have lost some valuables, but what can we do?" says a resident of Manasi apartments, a portion of which collapsed during the Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone he can blame it on. ... Jones' Law From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 03:59:00 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 03:59:00 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066900.23782.6899472585139244110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Exactly. One of my colleagues, who is a scholar of ancient Indian texts, Hinduism and the Vedas, points out that now such scholars are in the precarious position of being 'used' by communal forces, who quote them out of context and politically exploit these scholar's legitimate claims for the study of Sanskrit. By the way I would like to ask all those who demand the revival of Sanksrit on political grounds - ie like those who support Hindutva ideology - whether they know Sanskrit. My question also is, given that they had a political interest in the language, could they not teach themselves the language? I do know of enough people, who out of interest and love for a language, have taught themselves a language or have learnt it in non-formal, non-university contexts. Please note, lest my words be interpreted wrongly or I be misquoted, that I am *not* saying that people interested in Sanskrit should have to learn it themselves. MY POSITION IS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE - language departments in India have been cannibalized, being the first casualties of budgetary restrictions and the general attitude of state educational bodies that only science and technology count as important. PLEASE ALSO NOTE THAT I AM NOT ANTI-TECHNOLOGY OR ANTI-TECHOLOGICAL EDUCATION. However, what has happened in the case of sanskrit and regional Indian languages, has also happened, to a lesser degree admittedly, to most humanities subjects in India. In the politics of education in post-independence India, the humanities and social sciences - with the possible exception of economics - have been treated as not worthy of study since they are 'non-utilitarian' and not 'practical'. These subjects have been dismissed since the mistaken prejudice is that they cannot get one 'a job in the real world'. This is unfortunate, since these are as valid forms of knowledge as scientific knowledge, and given that the two forms of knowledge can enhance each other and also provide constructive critique of each other. - Rohit > >>communalists still proceed with their venture. Those who are against them >>ideologically are evaded. Recently, an international Bhagavad Gita seminar >>was organised in my city, Trivandrum. As everyone knows, Gita is one of >>the >>Prasthanatraya on which Vedanta is based. My centre, the Centre for >>Vedanta >>Studies, of the University of Kerala, which is a unique centre, was not >>even informed about the event, not to speak of being invited to > >Dear Prof. Nair, > >You probably got off better for not having been invited/informed. >This was the "international conference" that "unanimously" passed >a resolution to label the Gita as India's "national scripture" - >a very stupid attempt to create an illusion of a "kitAbI" religion. >The range of people associated with this "international conference" >was amazing - from Justice V. R. Krishna Iyer of Marxist sympathies >to a few contemporary Swamis with VHP sympathies. I doubt if any >sensible person would have been able to make a positive impact >upon such strange bedfellows. Not that the said "conference" has >made an impact upon anything in India, besides passing meaningless >resolutions. > >Vidyasankar > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jan 31 06:31:00 2001 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 06:31:00 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066916.23782.12769224586076527688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rohit Chopra wrote: > > >No matter of chance, a matter of deliberate choice made to demean sanskrit. > >The Nehruvian mind-set had no place for sanskrit. > > > >best, > > > >Bharat Gupt,Associate Professor,Delhi University, > > Dear Professor Gupt, > Could you please elaborate what you mean by the 'Nehruvian mindset'? In the present context, Nehru shared the general Marxist denigration of things in Indian heritage related to religion, hence to the traditional arts like music, rituals, yogic practices, various skills of mind-training like as.taavadhaana, ancient theatre and so forth. For more details, please bear with me and wait for my forthcoming book India since Freedom: A Cultural Decline or Revival? best, Bharat Gupt,Associate Professor,Delhi University, PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA.mobile:9810077914 tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Jan 31 12:49:04 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 07:49:04 -0500 Subject: How Earthquake affects the poor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066914.23782.11184421279123995647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am sorry for accidentally sending this off topic message to this list which was meant for other lists that I subscribe to. As a result I have lost my share of posting 2 messages to this list for today. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Wed Jan 31 02:40:09 2001 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 08:10:09 +0530 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066895.23782.1070904858179875621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For whom tolls the bell? Hello, The Amarakosa says "Samskrtam krtrime" and so it has ever been a mother tongue of any people. Sanskrit has been politicised in India. It is used by the Hindu communalists as an instrument to rally people behind them. Sanskrit is taught in ten days in the so-called 'Sibirams' and those who attended such sibirams speak anything and everything as if it is Sanskrit. Sanskrit is in this way, being corrupted everyday in India. But the Hindu communalists still proceed with their venture. Those who are against them ideologically are evaded. Recently, an international Bhagavad Gita seminar was organised in my city, Trivandrum. As everyone knows, Gita is one of the Prasthanatraya on which Vedanta is based. My centre, the Centre for Vedanta Studies, of the University of Kerala, which is a unique centre, was not even informed about the event, not to speak of being invited to participate. At the same time, I was invited by the Bylorussian Metropolitan-sponsored Theology Dept. of the European Humanities University, Minsk to deliver lectures on Vedanta. My experience is that Sanskrit as such is being protected by scholars outside India rather than the Hindu communalists here. I don't think that all Sanskritists in India are on the part of the communalists. Recently when there was a Sanskrit students conference at Sampurnand University, Benares organised by the 'hidden communal forces', students revolted, which is a good sign. The regime is extending their efforts to implement their 'hidden agenda' in the field of Sanskrit studies also. Alert! With regards, Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Professor of Sanskrit & Director, Centre for Vedanta Studies, University of Kerala, Kariavattom P.O. Trivandrum. ---------- > From: Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Did you hear this? > Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 5:31 AM > > Dead Language Talking by Manu Joseph > > 2:00 a.m. Jan. 29, 2001 PST > > MUMBAI, India -- Some of the most forward-looking engineering students in > India will soon be learning the ancient language of Sanskrit. > > The decision by the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Delhi to offer > science courses based on Sanskrit teachings is raising eyebrows at a school > that is essentially India's answer to the Massachusetts Institute of > Technology. After all, there are no treatises in Sanskrit on nuclear physics > or genetic engineering. > > Or as one undergraduate put it, "Yes, I know Sanskrit. It's an ancient > Indian language, right? But we're all too preoccupied with learning here. We > don't want Sanskrit," he said. > > > But the idea isn't to counter science as we know it today, its backers say. > It's to widen the spectrum of the student's database, and to give them a > sense that Indians didn't begin learning about science the day the English > colonized them. > > Ancient Indians are credited with having made amazing discoveries in > astronomy, architecture, medicine and other fields. They had a unique method > of calculation, which is now called Vedic Mathematics. > > Most of the information of that age was recorded in Sanskrit -- a language > that hasn't been widely used in a thousand years. > > "Our notion of science comes from (the) West, in the same way that our > notion of education, politics, literature, et cetera, come from the West," > said Wagish Shukla, a mathematics professor at IIT, Delhi, who is also a > Sanskrit scholar. "We have become an intellectual colony of the West under > amnesia, regarding the knowledge society we were. > > "The problem today is that inputs from Sanskrit are disenfranchised from our > education. For instance, when a student wants to understand a particular > issue, he or she is debarred from finding out what Vedanta or Nyaya or > Mimamsa (ancient Indian knowledge bases) has to say about it." > > Two courses have been proposed: Knowledge Orders in Sanskrit Texts and > Building Scientific Discourse the Indian Way. > > The courses will concentrate on how Indian thinkers approached and developed > academic discipline. For instance, what did they mean by "proof," > "observation," "rule" and other scientific definitions. > > "There are things of value in Sanskrit texts," Shukla said. "They will have > to be annotated and retold for the contemporary science worker. Translations > of Sanskrit texts make no attempt to integrate that knowledge into a usable > product for the present-day worker in science. In any case, most of the > Sanskrit texts, have not even been published." > > > He also pointed out that some original Sanskrit texts will be discussed -- > "perhaps through English" -- for a better understanding. That's no > consolation for many students in IIT (Delhi). There are murmurs of muffled > protests, but since it is an elective the students can simply avoid it. > > "Going back to the roots is all fine, but I don't think I will take up > Sanskrit," said Subhajit Sanyal, a Ph.D. student in the computer science > department in IIT, Delhi. "There are some students who are very curious to > explore what old Indian texts have to say about various things, but such > guys are very few." > > While the IIT administration has confirmed that it will be including > Sanskrit courses soon, the exact time of inception is yet to be finalized. > > There are six Indian Institutes of Technology in different parts of the > country, but at this point only the Delhi campus has decided to include > Sanskrit in the curriculum for undergraduate, postgraduate and doctorate > students. > > Sanskrit is taught at other universities throughout the country, but not in > the context of using it to understand scientific and mathematic principles. > > Sanskrit is believed to be over 3,000 years old. It constantly evolved > throughout its long history. By about 1000 AD, original Sanskrit had almost > vanished and given way to newer Indian languages that had evolved along the > way. > > The 1951 Indian census report said that among a population of 362 million > Indians, only 555 spoke Sanskrit. Today, those who understand or speak > Sanskrit are predominantly academicians concerned with the subject. > > > > > > Have a peaceful and joyous day. > Aditya Mishra > Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org > Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya > ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 > Random thought of the day: > Nothing soothes me more after a long and maddening course of pianoforte recitals than to sit and have my teeth drilled. ... George Bernard Shaw From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 09:21:31 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 09:21:31 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066908.23782.17535250372411348013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >it's not a major problem. We have it on Vidyasankar's >authority that they all end up in the US. There's :-)) It feels nice to be called an authority, but my view seems to be different from most others. Nowadays, an increasing number of IIT students get diverted into management courses, or find jobs in industry, without applying to graduate school abroad. The place of Sanskrit in Indian education elicits a wide variety of responses. In my opinion, the key to understanding the problem is that under Chacha Nehru and Indira Didi, it was not Sanskrit vs. Tamil, it was not Sanskrit vs. Urdu, and it was not Sanskrit vs. any other modern Indian language. It always was Hindi vs. everything else, with a never ending debate about whether Urdu is Hindi or not, and whether Hindi is Hindustani or not. If good Sanskrit studies find a more congenial home outside India, there is a clear historical reason for it. Bringing up competing claims of Tamil and Urdu does not begin to address the problem with language education policy. It only reveals a mental block against Sanskrit, as encoded in the schoolgoing child's phalam phale phalAnI, sansk.rt kabhI nA AnI. On the other hand, creating space for Sanskrit may be a good precedent for Tamil and modern Indian languages. And why not? A huge amount of information is available in a wide variety of our languages. Every time a smart biotech firm in the West patents things like neem and turmeric, Indians lose by not paying good attention to indigenous texts. There may be some financial incentive after all. Vidyasankar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jan 31 08:52:57 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 09:52:57 +0100 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066910.23782.7033077276582789389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli [SMTP:vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. januar 2001 19:37: > India became colonized precisely because its "materialistic" technology got > outdated. So there is nothing wrong if engineers leave India to US to > acquire the technology. As long as intellectual property rights are not > violated, there is nothing wrong for these migrants to pass on technology to > India via joint ventures etc, as is happening now at Silicon Valley. My impression is rather that India got colonized because of a breakdown of the Indian state system, in other words for a combination of political and military reasons. The Indian princes and kings that fought the British had the same kind of technology, taught them by the ubiquitous "military advisers" who flourished then the way they do now. The British finally moved into a power vacuum created by Indian in-fighting (a lesson to everybody, by the way).But I see no reason to lament that Indian citizens go to the US and acquire new knowledge! :-) > Again not miss another important point, the materialistic progress is also > dependent upon the base which is spiritual technology. The western > materialistic progress is based on centuries of philosophical and other > foundations of Aristotle, Socrates et,al. Can any one say the spiritual > technology of Aristotel is obsolete? I don't quite see Aristotle as a spiritual technologist. If anything, that description would probably fit Plato better than Aristotle. What has survived of Aristotle's work as relevant to modern times is above all his discussions of ethics and other things not related to the "natural world". Certain ethical and political problems are constant and endemic, and in such matters even ancient philosophers still count. On the contrary Aristotle has made a > strong come back when his panspermia (sperms in space) has become the > foundation for "Intelligent Desgin" and struck a death blow to Darwinism on > one hand and something-out-of-nothing Creationism on the other hand. I can't see that Darwinism has been dealt a death blow (rather to the contrary). If that had been the case, I think Scientific American would have told me, but it hasn't mentioned the matter since I became a subscriber some years ago. Some people may *think* that Darwinism has been dealt a death blow, but that is not quite the same thing. I do > claim that the thoery of jAtavedas (Ai.Br), which proposes that beings are > pre-conceived according to a cosmic logic; which clearly precedes Aristotle, > can be a good starting point for those who care. This hypothesis seems to be beyond falsification or verification. Living beings seem to evolve in interaction with their environment (land creatures may evolve into fish-like creatures like the wales, for instance, just like some dinosaurs evolved into ichtyosaurs). It is likely, I think, that life evolves according to basic natural laws, but apart from that I can't see anything preconceived about it. > By the way India doen't always need "latest" technology. There is also > another thing called "appropriate technology" which is a logical corollary > of supply side economics, and uses what is available in abundance instead of > the "latest". I agree with that, ideally speaking. But mostly, as far as I can see, engineers, doctors, and businessmen go for the latest, whether it is needed or not. The latest and most sophisticated simply has the highest prestige. All the best, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Jan 31 09:02:41 2001 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 10:02:41 +0100 Subject: Epics on CD Message-ID: <161227066906.23782.13616323459086383391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers, after being offline for some time I would like to obtain information about wether these texts are available on CD in the US: mahAbhArata rAmAyaNa zakuntalA Texts should be in Sanskrit and english translation plus a search function. If possible let me know vendors and prices. Any help is mostly appreciated. Regards -- Tobias Grote-Beverborg ********************** D?rener Str. 272 D-50935 K?ln fon: 0221.3465777 mobil: 0177.6848202 fax: 0177.99.6848202 email: grotebev at uni-koeln.de From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 17:00:21 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 12:00:21 -0500 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066920.23782.11228414780886291645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Lars Martin Fosse >My impression is rather that India got colonized because of a >breakdown of >the Indian state system, Breakdown of state system is the result of not being up-to-date with political theories (what is going on elsewhere in the world). The dhArmic kingdoms are obsolete with cultures who live by different rules. >The Indian princes and kings that fought the British had the same >kind of >technology, I believe the European equipment, artillery techniques and training are superior and more systematic. In any case the Indian kings deserved to lose. Imagine rANi of jhAnsi riding a horse when Germans are making submarines. >I see no reason to lament that Indian citizens go to the US and >acquire >new knowledge! :-) Agree with you. But you hadn't seen national news papers all through 1970s and 1980s. They all cried brain drain for 20 full years. When top public sector managers were happily emulating the dynasty and mismanaging, the new graduates had no way to go but out. The computer age of 1990s turned the tables and exposed the missed opportunities. An average employee in any Insurance company in US is hardly a graduate. But even tellers in Indian banks are professionally certified cost accountants and company secretaries. What stopped them in bidding multi-billion dollar insurance contracts in US? >I don't quite see Aristotle as a spiritual technologist. If anything, >that >description would probably fit Plato better than Aristotle. What >has >survived of Aristotle's work as relevant to modern times is above >all his >discussions of ethics and other things not related to the >"natural world". >Certain ethical and political problems are constant >and endemic, and in >such matters even ancient philosophers still >count. Please check http://www.panspermia.org Right from childhood, we have been taught to ridicule Aristotle's observations on how flies are born from cow dung as a refutation of panspermia. A bad test case can not be used to reject a good theory. Certain philosophical matters are too delicate to be brushed away. >I can't see that Darwinism has been dealt a death blow (rather to the >contrary). If that had been the case, I think Scientific American >would >have told me, but it hasn't mentioned the matter since I became >a >subscriber some years ago. Some people may *think* that Darwinism >has been >dealt a death blow, but that is not quite the same thing. I may have been harsh on creationism, because most religious scriptures have mythologies of spontaneous creation. But I think the phrase "death blow" is appropriate for Darwinism. Scientists are finding that there is not enough time from the time cooling of earth till now, for micro-organisms to evolve into full blow humans. Also, most mutations observed during the last 100 years of cancer research are found to be cancerous. Beneficial mutations are hard to find or prove. >>I do claim that the theory of jAtavedas (Ai.Br), which proposes that >> >>beings are pre-conceived according to a cosmic logic; which clearly >> >>precedes Aristotle, can be a good starting point for those who care. >This hypothesis seems to be beyond falsification or verification. I hate to impose an assumption of "truth value in scriptures" on scholars who are working on other fields not related to mine. It is unethical on part if I attempted such a thing. All I am attempting to say for now, is that Vedic speculations are made under as much good faith as Aristotle did. >Living beings seem to evolve in interaction with their environment >(land >creatures may evolve into fish-like creatures like the wales, >for >instance, just like some dinosaurs evolved into ichtyosaurs). It >is >likely, I think, that life evolves according to basic natural >laws, Evolution is not proven yet. >but apart from that I can't see anything preconceived about it. Intelligent Design starts with the assumption of a preconceived genes created in space which come into contact with a host planet. We all take the existing human or other animal bodies for granted and study how they are made or how they think and behave. As an extension we also study how to get liberation etc. The way it goes according to my view, Vedas make no such assumption. The inner psycho-somatic reflexology (did I coin a new phrase?) is not just the result of a structure of body/mind which is created by "somebody"; but it is intricately linked to the logic itself. prANAyAma re; jAtavedas etc is a piece of cake. One can pick up any off-the-shelf plug and play mind stilling package from a nearby yoga school. But explaining in words acceptable to scientists can take decades. Btw, jAtavedas is a higher concept. There are more basic proposals still pending for acceptance. >I agree with that, ideally speaking. But mostly, as far as I can see, >engineers, doctors, and businessmen go for the latest, whether it is > >needed or not. The latest and most sophisticated simply has the >highest >prestige. Just an example, India can not afford the package of Kellogg's cereals. Consider how much garbage will be created with India's population. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 31 12:39:52 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 12:39:52 +0000 Subject: Vedic sculpture in Naples? Message-ID: <161227066912.23782.3397803625917957162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The MLBD Newsletter for Jan 2001 contains the following amusing and extraordinary report: -- Vedic Sculpture in Ancient Italy The National Archaeological Museum in Naples is to open its "secret collection" of frescoes, mosaics and statues to the public next month. The 250 exhibits depict sexual activity involving gods and goddesses, satyrs, nymphs, and pygmies. ... -- The presuppositions and misunderstandings in this report and its title are so profound that one is left in stunned speechlessness. (This is not meant as a criticism of the Newsletter as a whole, which is obviously a useful publication.) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From indological at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 14:10:37 2001 From: indological at HOTMAIL.COM (harsh v. singh) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 14:10:37 +0000 Subject: Indological catalogue 2001 Message-ID: <161227066918.23782.8526153068207624085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, We are in the field of publication of books in Indology for the past 4 decades and have earned a name for our services. We have come up with our new subject wise catalogue which we are also sending as an email attachment to interested scholars. Hence kindly write to us for free comprehensive catalogue on Indology covering many topics. With regards, Yours truly, H.V. Singh INDOLOGICAL BOOK HOUSE 42-43, JAWAHAR NAGAR, POST BOX NO. 2165 DELHI 110007 INDIA _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jan 31 17:29:04 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 17:29:04 +0000 Subject: cEtu 'calf' and cEtA(=kaRRA) 'calf-cow' Message-ID: <161227066922.23782.1453188226880944771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In sangam and post-sangam literature, it appears that cEtu is used to mean 'calf' and cEtA (= cEtu + A) means 'cow with a calf'. The other parallel term for 'cow with a calf' is kaRRA (=kan2Ru + A). Even today in districts like Dharmapuri and Coimbatore, village farmers use the word, cEtA to mean 'cow with a calf'. Of course, cEtu has another well-known meaning which is 'red'. For example: a) cEtAmpal 'red water-lily', b) cEtAram 'scarlet ixora'. The scarlet ixora flower is also called 'ceccai, cintUram' connected to 'red' as well. Consider the word, cEy = 1) 'red' 2) 'child, youth'. Comparing with a similar pair (pEy/pEtu), pEy = pEtu = 'confusion, frenzy, madness', cEy and cEtu are equivalents. cEtu, like cEy, will then have basically two meanings: 1) 'red' and 2) 'child, youth'. From sangam times onwards, 'cEtu' is used in the sense of 'calf'. In the Tamil version of the BRhatkathA by KoGkuvELir called PeruGkatai, cEtA is clearly mentioned as milch cows feeding their calf. In the following, a herd comprising only of cows that feed their calves is collected by excluding the cows that have weaned their calves and the pregnant cows. Calves that stopped taking milk from their mothers, and have been weaned off are called nAku in Tamil literature. nAku cUl nIGkiya cEtAt tokuttut kuLampum kOTum viLaGku pon2 uRIit taLaiyum tAmpum aLaikaTai mattum kazuvum kalan2um vazuvila piRavum paimpon2in2 iyan2Ravai pARpaTa vakuttuk kun2RAk kOTi koTuttu uvappOrum PeruGkatai 1:39:64-69 Tiru. U. V. Saminathaiyar, the grand editor of PeruGkatai and CT texts, comments: "nAku - pAl uNNutalai viTTa kiTAri; pAn2maRai nAku - periyapurANam. nAku nIGkiya cEtA, cUl nIGkiya cEtA en2ka; en2Ratu kaRavaip pacukkaLai." Obviously, here cEtA means cows feeding calves, and not 'red cows'. What is interesting in the above PeruGkatai lines is the gifting of these milch cattle whose horns and hooves are decorated with gold ornaments. Possibly, pon2 'gold' ornaments could also mean any shining (such as brass) sheetmetal ornaments. See below Sri. M. Raghava Aiyangar's comments on a poem quoted by Naccin2Arkkin2iyar's TolkAppiyam commentary. In PeruGkatai, as in sangam poetry, many times cEtA/cEtAn2 'calf-cow' and their dairy products such as milk, butter, ghee, curds and buttermilk are mentioned. Evidently in these instances, cEtA means 'calf-cow' and not 'red cow'. For example, a mother feeding the sweet milk of a cEtA from PeruGkatai: nalattaku cEtA naRuneyt tImpAl alaittu vAyp peyyum an2puTait tAyin2 PeruGkatai 2:17:6-7 In the sangam literature, there are instances where the dairy products along with the cEtA 'calf-cow' are mentioned. For example: a) cEtu An2 veNNey ve puRattu uruka - aka. 394:6 b) In the NaRRiNai poem, when the cEtA touches the kAntaL flowers, the poured-out pollen makes the calf and the cow to become afraid. cilampin2 mEynta ciRu kOTTu cEtu A alagku kulai kAntaL tINTi tAtu uka *kan2Ru tAy* maruLum kun2Ra nATan2 - naR. 359 c) In the Brahmin section of the village, the cooking of their vegetarian food is described in detail (lines 301-310). Here, the buttermilk and butter of a cEtA 'calf-cow' are important ingredients. maRai kAppALar uRai pati cEppin2 ... *cEtu A* naRu mOr veNNeyin2 mAtuLattu uruppuRu pacu kAy pOzoTu kaRi kalantu - perum. 301, 306-7 d) In one of the early Tamil attestations of go-dhUli, the cattle herds of the Kongars going to water fords producing much of godhuuli, and that cow-dust goes to fill up the skies. van2pulam tumiya pOki kogkar paTu maNi Ayam nIrkku nimirntu cellum cEtu A eTutta ce nila kurUu tukaL akal iru vicumpin2 Un2Ri tOn2Rum -akanAn2URu 79:5-8 e) kuzavic cEtu A mAnti - naR. 213:4 Here, kuzavic cEtu means 'baby/infant calf'. Cf. pal AvuL uyttuviTin2um *kuzak kan2Ru* vallatu Am tAy nATik kOTalai - nAlaTi 111 f) In a poem quoted by Naccin2Arkkin2iyar in his commentary on the ancient grammar TolkAppiyam, the godhUli is praised heavily: the gifting of cattle herds with cows and calves to brahmins creates a goloka (which is really a part of the Heaven acc. to purANas) on this very bhUloka! The gifted herds raise so much godhUli that the dust makes the goloka in the skies get covered with soil dust from the bhUloka with the end result that the goloka of the Heaven appears to be bhUloka! vELvinilai ----------- TolkAppiyam commentary (tol. poruL. 90. nac.) pon2 niRainta poRkOTTup, poRkuLampiR *kaRRA* tantu in2makizAn2 antaNarai in2puRuppar - cen2n2itan2 mAnilamE An2ulakam pOn2Ratu; vAn2 tukaL pOrttu An2ulakam maNNulakAm an2Ru! Sri. Mu. Raghava Aiyangar, in his Peruntokai anthology, comments on this poem. "itan2aik kapilai kaNNiya vELvinilai en2par tolkAppiyan2Ar. cEtAvin2aik koTukkak karutiya koTai en2patu naccin2Arkkin2iyam. poRkOTu - azakiya kompu. pon2 niRainta kOTum, poR kuLampum, kan2Rum uTaiyavAka An2iraiyai aLittu en2ka. in2makizAn2 - mukattAn2 in2imaiyum, akattAn2 makizvumAy. cenn2i vELviyil aLitta aak koTaiyAl pUlOkam kOlOkam pOlavum, avvAn2iraiyin2in2Ru ezunta tULi pOrttalAl, kOlOkam pUlOkam pOlavum mARalAyin2a en2ka." Note that kaRRA 'calf-cow' herds are mentioned in the poem (probably composed after tol. which is supposed to be the first tamil book), Naccin2Arkkin2iyar uses cEtA. g) Finally, a poem refering to cEtA's ghee and curd by medieval AuvaiyAr. ciRukkIrai vevvaTakuJ cEtAvi n2eyyum maRuppaTAt taNTayiru mAnti - veRuttEn2ai vaJcikkuG koRkaikku man2n2avan2ER pittAn2E kaJcikkum puRkaikkuG kai. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jan 31 23:50:59 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 01 23:50:59 +0000 Subject: Indological catalogue 2001 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066924.23782.2888880778077813487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indological Book House, This list is NOT to be used for advertising, however polite and however appropriate to the topic of this list. The terms and scope of this list are fully explained on the website http://www.indology.org.uk Your subscription is being cancelled. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, harsh v. singh wrote: > Dear Indologists, > We are in the field of publication of books in > Indology for the past 4 decades and have earned a name for our services. We > have come up with our new subject wise catalogue which we are also sending > as an email attachment to interested scholars. Hence kindly write to us for > free comprehensive catalogue on Indology covering many topics. > With regards, > Yours truly, > H.V. Singh > INDOLOGICAL BOOK HOUSE > 42-43, JAWAHAR NAGAR, > POST BOX NO. 2165 > DELHI 110007 > INDIA > > _________________________________________________________________________