From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 1 00:31:45 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 00:31:45 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit/Udru/Hindi (Re: Did you hear this?) Message-ID: <161227066926.23782.7212050388386777329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rohit Chopra wrote: >I believe Sanskrit was an elitist language, akin to Latin or Greek. >It was a Brahmanical language and the language of the people, at specific >historical moments were other languages, such as Pali. It was indeed an elitist language, used largely by scholars for past 15, maybe 20 centuries. It could be called brahmanical because often Brahmins specialized in it. But its use was not limited to the Brahmanic (Vedic/Puranic) traditions, it was used by Buddhists and Jains, even Sikhs. >In fact, Hindustani - the language with words with Sanskrit, and >Urdu roots as well as Persian and Arabic etymological connections is a >more representative North Indian language than the completely artifical >Sanskritized Doordarshan Hindi which unfortunately has become the >only 'authentic' version of Hindi that the Indian state endorses. Urdu, in its modern form (full for Farsi/Arabic words) was perhaps introduced by Vali (1667-1707). It became popular as a replacement of Farsi in Delhi. If You look at older forms of what is called "Urdu", you will see a lot less Farsi/Arabic. The poetry of Amir Khusrow is related to modern Hindi and not Urdu. Throughout much of India, Sanskrit words are much more easily understood than Farsi/Arabic ones. There is a lot of old literature in Hindi that modern English-medium educated Indians are unaware of. You can take the works included in Adi Granth as an example of what language was most easily understood, when it was compiled, in Punjab, as well as much of North and central India. Yashwant From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 1 06:38:37 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 01:38:37 -0500 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066936.23782.254309658082494019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Rohit Chopra >Mere technological superiority, in itself, does not lead to >colonialism. >What about intra-Asian colonialism? I do not condemn colonialism or any other social structure unless it turns unfair. Indians colonized many islands around the world and dominated. To some extent they face the same music Britishers faced in India. Some social structures like democracy offer better chance of equality and justice. Most others turn unfair sooner or later. >in the case of a technocratic community of Indians, it leads to >applying a >technological paradigm to understanding culture, where >everything can be >seen according to the principles of modular logic I understand that technocracy is far removed from reality. But aristocracy and technocracy are two sides of the same coin. When Elitism and Aristocracy control all resources, the creative effort of society is stifled and the intellect takes refuge in technocracy which is destined to be a failure. Please check this out.. http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Bionomics/MilitaryImplications.html The best guard against technocracy is to understand that social systems are non-linear. >By the way, would you agree that the class of Indians who leave for the US >and make big bucks working in technology are a modern day >equivalent of a >so-called 'westernized elite' Isn't it how societies work? Everybody works for his or her own benefit or immediate family, or country and world in that order? If nobody told these people their duties and responsibilities who is to blame? When people who occupy high places make claims about "sacrifices", what morals can we expect from mortals? Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 1 02:08:01 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 02:08:01 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066930.23782.2635056415755336947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Gupt, I look forward to reading your book. One question: does your own definition of Indian heritage include the cultural resources of Islamic and other cultures as well or only Hindu culture. I ask this not to be provocative for the sake of it, but to then position your own understanding of the 'Nehruvian mindset' to your own understanding of 'Indian heritage'. Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 1 02:21:43 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 02:21:43 +0000 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066932.23782.10321615378168862708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah, I agree that there is nothing wrong for migrants to pass on technology to India. But your logic for Indian colonization seems rather simplistic. Mere technological superiority, in itself, does not lead to colonialism. What about intra-Asian colonialism? Also what do you mean by 'materialistic' and, by implication, 'non materialistic' technology? Is not all technology - grounded in material indexes. My interest in this comes from my work which deals with how technology impacts the logic of social relations. It seems to me that in the case of a technocratic community of Indians, it leads to applying a technological paradigm to understanding culture, where everything can be seen according to the principles of modular logic - culture and technology are independent spheres, the globe is a level playing field etc, everything can be solved according to a well-defined action plan with specified and agreed upon standards etc, everything must be governed by doctrine ie codes and protocols (such as IPR). This is a reductive description (since I do not want to inflict long passages about the topic, on readers on this forum), though the essence of my view. By the way, would you agree that the class of Indians who leave for the US and make big bucks working in technology are a modern day equivalent of a so-called 'westernized elite'. If after independence, the English language guaranteed social mobility and elitism, would you not say that technology is the mantra of elitism and social mobility today? It does not matter that those who benefit directly from it may espouse Hindutva views, are they not still elitist? I stray from the topic, so I'll end here. Rohit >Bhadraiah Mallampalli [SMTP:vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. januar 2001 >19:37:India became colonized precisely because its "materialistic" >technology got outdated. So there is nothing wrong if engineers leave India >to US to acquire the technology. As long as intellectual property rights >are not violated, there is nothing wrong for these migrants to pass on >technology to India via joint ventures etc, as is happening now at Silicon >Valley. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 1 15:11:54 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 07:11:54 -0800 Subject: Did you hear this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066941.23782.13718177628186174828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >it's not a major problem. We have it on > Vidyasankar's > >authority that they all end up in the US. There's > > :-)) It feels nice to be called an authority, but my > view seems to be different from most others. It was just a gentle aside on IIT alumni, of whom I know a few on this list, representing a wide spectrum ranging from Sanskrit to Tamil, Hindi etc :-)) > It only reveals a mental block > against Sanskrit, as encoded in the schoolgoing > child's > phalam phale phalAnI, sansk.rt kabhI nA AnI. You've omitted the next line of the doggerel: Ani to bhi bhool jAni ("even if I get it I'm bound to forget it"), a telling comment on the perceived inapplicability/uselessness of Sanskrit. > On the other hand, creating space for Sanskrit may > be a good precedent for Tamil and modern Indian > languages. Surely this is somewhat hieratic? To be introduced in the curriculum, why should modern Indian languages need any kind of precedent? Isn't it enough that these languages are mother tongues of students? Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 1 08:42:24 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 08:42:24 +0000 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066937.23782.11450066799191426819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I know that this is not Indology -- but! Can you provide me with a living >example of evolution? We hear so much about Darwinism and evolution, but is >it not a case of evolution happened in the past, evolution will happen in >the future, but evolution is not happening just now?! > >I am asking about evolved living entities, not microbes etc. A question of time scales. Evolution would happen over tens of thousands of years, but nobody has lived that long. It can be seen as what is called a quasi-steady state approximation. There is a long-term time dependence, but this is so slow that one would not see changes in the short-term. Also, there is no one universal view of evolution. What people think about it today is approximately neo-Darwinian evolution, not strict Darwinism. Some think evolution occurs through accumulated changes. Others argue for jerky genetic mutations and sudden breaks in speciation events. A few people are even reconsidering Lamarckian evolution nowadays. See Science (the journal), 7 April 2000, p. 38, and 30 Jun 2000, p. 2318. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Feb 1 04:34:22 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 10:04:22 +0530 Subject: Indological catalogue 2001 Message-ID: <161227066934.23782.13769152715891746006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Will it not be better for commercial concerns not to post directly but through the List founder? rajesh kochhar -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk >Dear Indological Book House, > >This list is NOT to be used for advertising, however polite and however >appropriate to the topic of this list. > >The terms and scope of this list are fully explained on the website > http://www.indology.org.uk > >Your subscription is being cancelled. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list. > >On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, harsh v. singh wrote: > >> Dear Indologists, >> We are in the field of publication of books in >> Indology for the past 4 decades and have earned a name for our services. We >> have come up with our new subject wise catalogue which we are also sending >> as an email attachment to interested scholars. Hence kindly write to us for >> free comprehensive catalogue on Indology covering many topics. >> With regards, >> Yours truly, >> H.V. Singh >> INDOLOGICAL BOOK HOUSE >> 42-43, JAWAHAR NAGAR, >> POST BOX NO. 2165 >> DELHI 110007 >> INDIA >> >> _________________________________________________________________________ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 1 18:31:59 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 10:31:59 -0800 Subject: Shankaracharya and Sikhism Message-ID: <161227066943.23782.17521611356330664442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are informative exchanges between Professor Gupt and Professor Mann on the relations between Shankara and Sikhism in the RISA list. Are there any studies on the relationship between Shankara's system and Sikhism? Thanks in advance, SM Web Discussion: --------------- http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg03960.html Prof. Gupt > The religious practise prescribed by Nanak follows the Shankara's >Advaita of the Formless worship (nirguna sampradaaya) through meditation on >name of God/guru. http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg03979.html Prof. Mann http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg04000.html http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg04012.html On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Bharat Gupt wrote: [QUOTE] > Now to the basic conceptual issue. I am a loss to understand where the > very idea of Akaal Prukh emanates from if not from a Vedantic attributes > of Brahma. Certainly there is a long road from Shankar to Nanak with > accretions of various yogic sects as I had indicated in a later post, > But the without the fundamentals of Brahmavaada, Patnjali and Sphota > how can japa and simran have any relevance in terms of liberation of any > description, is difficult to understand. Your basis for deciding on "Akaal Prukh" as Nanak's designation for the divinity calls for some clerification. I appreciate the fact that you "only rely upon the originals and authentic translations (if at all needed)," but sometimes we all miss important details. Are you aware that more frequently used epithets in Nanak's writings relate to the divine sovereignty and come from Arabic and Persian: Sahib (137 times), Khasam (78 times), Patishah (23 times), and that Akal Purakh appears only once in his 350+ compositions? Happy reading of the Nanakbani. Gurinder Singh Mann University of California, Santa Barbara [QUOTE] __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Feb 1 09:58:56 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 10:58:56 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066939.23782.890541310912972392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rama Das [SMTP:dasa at ONE.NET.AU] skrev 1. februar 2001 02:54: > I know that this is not Indology -- but! Can you provide me with a living example of evolution? We hear so much about Darwinism and evolution, but is it not a case of evolution happened in the past, evolution will happen in the future, but evolution is not happening just now?! Since this is not Indology, I'll be very brief: 1. There is a vast literature on evolution and the various versions of the theory. If you want to know more, you may visit an academic bookshop. 2. Modern animal breeding is a good example of controlled evolution. We produce better and bigger (or smaller) cows, goats, sheep, dogs and what not. We manipulate milk production or fleshyness in cows, and we change the qualities of other animals through genetic techniques. Most of this happens in nature too, but incredibly slowly, so that the results only become visible after hundreds of thousands of years. As Vidyasankar has pointed out, Classical Darwinism has been modified, which is precisely what we would expect in a scientific theory. But that does not mean that darwinism is dead. To the contrary, check out Ernst Mayr's article in Scientific American, July 2000, p. 66ff. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From dasa at ONE.NET.AU Thu Feb 1 01:53:56 2001 From: dasa at ONE.NET.AU (Rama Das) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 11:53:56 +1000 Subject: SV: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066928.23782.738938763542467293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > ** Original Sender: Lars Martin Fosse > This hypothesis seems to be beyond falsification or verification. Living > beings seem to evolve in interaction with their environment (land creatures > may evolve into fish-like creatures like the wales, for instance, just like > some dinosaurs evolved into ichtyosaurs). It is likely, I think, that life > evolves according to basic natural laws, but apart from that I can't see > anything preconceived about it. > I know that this is not Indology -- but! Can you provide me with a living example of evolution? We hear so much about Darwinism and evolution, but is it not a case of evolution happened in the past, evolution will happen in the future, but evolution is not happening just now?! I am asking about evolved living entities, not microbes etc. ---- Ramadas ---- From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 2 03:16:23 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 19:16:23 -0800 Subject: Did you hear this? In-Reply-To: <20010130163021.20406.qmail@web124.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227066958.23782.11637728005219710946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > --- Arun Gupta wrote: > > I'm also told that the Bhagavad Gita is extremely > > popular at one of the > > Indian Institutes of Management. > > > > Horror of horrors ! How can this be permitted ? > > But that's precisely the point :) Why should > students > of IIT read the Gita? Isn't there enough religion/ > popular philosophy already in the ambience promoting > the "hum kitne mahaan the" worldview? > > In any case, if they don't read the Gita in the IIT, > it's not a major problem. We have it on > Vidyasankar's > authority that they all end up in the US. There's > enough Gita in the Indian community here to last > them > a lifetime :) > > Why should IIT students learn Sanskrit? If they must > learn languages, why not modern Indian languages? > What's wrong with 21st (or the 20th) century that > one > must go back in time? > > Thanks and Warm Regards, > > LS > > madam sansket is not dead language but it is alive in all the other languages spoken in the world?there are so many words belonging to sanskrit,and available in other indial languages,the english words "brother",and "sister" also are derived from sanskrit root words"bhraatra" ,"swashaa",so if you can learn sanskrityou will get the root from where all languages starting. thats all spsharma > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - > only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ===== __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 2 03:25:53 2001 From: ridhi88 at YAHOO.COM (SuryaPrakash Sharma) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 19:25:53 -0800 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? In-Reply-To: <20001227161626.2901.qmail@web2205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066960.23782.3854218694620745739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- SuryaPrakash Sharma wrote: > --- Dmitri wrote: > > Dear Indologists! > > > > Sanskrit word sa.mkiir.naa has a meaning in > > Monier-Williams > > > > special kind of mixed riddle > > > > Could someone give me an example of this kind of > > riddle? > > The older the riddle the better. > > > > Best regards, Dmitri. > reply by spshrma > the word sa.mkiir.naa can also be written as > samkeerna,as per nirukta theory of yask,means > narrower > one.if you find it suitable please do write to > suryaprakashsharma. > > > ===== > spsharma, i have tried in dictionaries but the example are not avilable.any how for your info the word is derived by using prefix sam to root word kr(for doing)and suffix na used to fom it. total word means the same as gived in your refered dictionary. thanks spsharma > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of > Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ===== __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 2 01:04:21 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 20:04:21 -0500 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066952.23782.9178915961662043722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Lakshmi Srinivas wrote.. >Surely this is somewhat hieratic? To be introduced in >the curriculum, why should modern Indian languages >need any kind of precedent? Isn't it enough that these >languages are mother tongues of students? Did we learn anything from Kali's Child? :-) Isn't Sanskrit read differently in different regions? It is impossible to introduce Sanskrit courses in any state without also hiring some local scholars. Otherwise what is interpreted in Bengal is useless in Karnataka. By the way the Sanskrit teacher must be necessarily bilingual to be able to teach Sanskrit into formal version of local language. I suppose the fears that local languages get neglected, or the opinion that local languages need not be taken up are not practical. By the way all this is pure technocratic discussion. >From: Rohit Chopra denouncing the Nehruvian vision >as 'western' or 'elitist'. It is not fair for any one to blame dynasty. India had dynasties all through its history. Nehruvian vision was constrained by fear of a repeat of East India Company if Industry is not controlled. But control raj missed out semiconductor and other revolutions. Basically it boils down to the other URL about military implicatons of complexity theory. A "one person's vision" however great, is not enough for a diverse land. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Fri Feb 2 02:34:32 2001 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 21:34:32 -0500 Subject: Indological catalogue 2001 Message-ID: <161227066956.23782.13433465710839239602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/1/01 8:03:49 PM, lnadybal at BELLATLANTIC.NET writes: >Cancelling someone's subscription for a single, polite and appropriate >infraction? Don't you think that's a bit rough? I think I agree. I read the Indology e-mail every day, but check the Indology site very infrequently. A *single* e-mail announcement is quite welcome. Publishers are an essential component of a healthy ecology. Brian From ghezziem at TIN.IT Thu Feb 1 22:03:05 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 22:03:05 +0000 Subject: R: Vedic sculpture in Naples? Message-ID: <161227066945.23782.778636675397691110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am a serious Italian indologist, and I feel me ashamed. Sorry by Italy. Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Dominik Wujastyk >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Vedic sculpture in Naples? >Data: Mer, 31 gen 2001 12:39 > > The MLBD Newsletter for Jan 2001 contains the following amusing and > extraordinary report: > > -- > Vedic Sculpture in Ancient Italy > > The National Archaeological Museum in Naples is to open its "secret > collection" of frescoes, mosaics and statues to the public next month. > The 250 exhibits depict sexual activity involving gods and goddesses, > satyrs, nymphs, and pygmies. ... > -- > > > The presuppositions and misunderstandings in this report and its title are > so profound that one is left in stunned speechlessness. > > (This is not meant as a criticism of the Newsletter as a whole, which is > obviously a useful publication.) > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 1 22:09:41 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 22:09:41 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066947.23782.1877467153088090769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > On the other hand, creating space for Sanskrit may > > be a good precedent for Tamil and modern Indian > > languages. > >Surely this is somewhat hieratic? To be introduced in >the curriculum, why should modern Indian languages >need any kind of precedent? Isn't it enough that these >languages are mother tongues of students? I distinguish among various levels of language education. I studied Marathi in Mumbai, and I think Punjabi children have to learn Tamil in Chennai. This is at the high school level. What might need more attention is some commitment to Indian languages at higher levels of education. Where are the people and resources for Tamil in Amritsar or Assamese in Mysore? Question - would this be necessary? Further question - where does Sanskrit fit into a picture of each linguistic state taking care of its own? Answer - in Europe, America and Japan. On the other hand, if someone somewhere in India does a little for Sanskrit, the experience may be instructive. It boils down to this. Should higher education in India give importance to Indian language material, from old Sanskrit and Tamil through 16th century languages to contemporary ones? I think yes, and I am an engineer. Cheers, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Feb 2 04:21:28 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 01 23:21:28 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit/Udru/Hindi (Re: Did you hear this?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066962.23782.10855051521785719756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yashwant Malaiya has written as follows: >Urdu, in its modern form (full for Farsi/Arabic words) was perhaps >introduced by Vali (1667-1707). It became popular as a replacement >of Farsi in Delhi. If You look at older forms of what is called "Urdu", >you will see a lot less Farsi/Arabic. The poetry of Amir Khusrow >is related to modern Hindi and not Urdu. Throughout much of India, >Sanskrit words are much more easily understood than Farsi/Arabic >ones. Urdu was as elitist as Sanskrit during muslim rule since it contained words from Farsi that was language of the rulers. It unfortunately became a symbol of Islam in India and Pakistan. It is not the language of masses in either country and one of the reasons for separation of Bangladesh was the imposition of Urdu as the official language of Pakistan. Except Pakistan and India muslims use the local language regardless of their religion. At one time English was also associated with the language of the British rulers but somehow it got de linked with the Raj but even to this day the English written in India is still the British version when the rest of the world and internet uses the American version. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you. \ The problem with any unwritten law is that you don't know where to go to erase it. ... Glaser and Way From lnadybal at BELLATLANTIC.NET Fri Feb 2 01:03:37 2001 From: lnadybal at BELLATLANTIC.NET (L. A. Nadybal) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 01:03:37 +0000 Subject: Indological catalogue 2001 In-Reply-To: <002101c08c08$4034c100$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227066949.23782.8126152877383032121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cancelling someone's subscription for a single, polite and appropriate infraction? Don't you think that's a bit rough? I was very pleased to have the info that was conveyed. What if a third party placed the notice as a news item stating what he or she had found? Even non-commercial TV and radio stations allow "non-commercial" mentions of their supporters names and brief mentions as to the nature of the commodities in which the deal. LN in DC At 10:04 AM 02/01/2001 +0530, you wrote: >Will it not be better for commercial concerns not to post directly but >through the List founder? >rajesh kochhar > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dominik Wujastyk > >>Dear Indological Book House, >> >>This list is NOT to be used for advertising, however polite and however >>appropriate to the topic of this list. >> >>The terms and scope of this list are fully explained on the website >> http://www.indology.org.uk >> >>Your subscription is being cancelled. >> >>-- >>Dominik Wujastyk >>Founder, INDOLOGY list. >> >>On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, harsh v. singh wrote: >> >>> Dear Indologists, >>> We are in the field of publication of books in >>> Indology for the past 4 decades and have earned a name for our services. >We >>> have come up with our new subject wise catalogue which we are also >sending >>> as an email attachment to interested scholars. Hence kindly write to us >for >>> free comprehensive catalogue on Indology covering many topics. >>> With regards, >>> Yours truly, >>> H.V. Singh >>> INDOLOGICAL BOOK HOUSE >>> 42-43, JAWAHAR NAGAR, >>> POST BOX NO. 2165 >>> DELHI 110007 >>> INDIA >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________________ > From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 2 01:49:56 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 01:49:56 +0000 Subject: Cakra-varti Rajah Message-ID: <161227066954.23782.12870237378598522924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Monier-Williams dictionary, Caturvarti is not present. Wheel is gilgul in Sumerian > IE *kwe-kwl-o is said to be related to Vedic cakra. Aryans have also borrowed the term cakra that ultimately goes back to Mesopotamia. Indian use of chakravartin is very late compared to Naram-Sin. See the Jaggayapeta stupa panel of the Cakravarti Rajah at Govt. Museum, Chennai which is usually dated to First century BC. Published, for example, Roy C. Craven, Indian art, Thames & Hudson, p. 76. Best wishes. ------------------ Mr. Narayan Joshi wrote: Naram-Sin(2291-2255 BCE) in his reign chose the path of war and, at least for a while, was rewarded by success. To the title of 'King of Agade', he could proudly add those of 'King of the four regions(of the World)'(shar kibrat 'arbem) and 'King of Universe' (shar kishshati). Here the word 'shar' means a king. Is not this title similar to the title of the ancient Indian kings, namely Cakra-varti Rajah or Catur(four)-varti Rajah? It appears that kibret means four (Catur)and kishshati means Universe (Cakra-varti). [snip] Now the Indian title Cakra-varti cannot be Dravidian because to the best of my knowledge sound combination like 'Cr' as in Cakra does not appear in Dravidian. So it appears that the title Cakra-varti was brought to India by Aryans. In that case Dravidians who knew Middle-east countries did not learn anything. It appears that they simply were faceless traders without any kings or titles like Cakra-varti Rajah. Could there be any explanation different from this? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri Feb 2 01:03:34 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 02:03:34 +0100 Subject: Urdu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067055.23782.12828065852648546341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Sa, 03 Feb 2001 schrieb Shailendra Raj Mehta: > Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > "Muslims in Kerala speak Malayalam, those in Tamilnadu speak > Tamil; (b) what is 'local'? Urdu is basically northwest Indian and > well rooted there, as Rohit Chopra already mentioned. " > > What about the Muslims in Karanataka and Andhra Pradesh? They all speak a > (very gracious) Deccani Urdu. Not even all the Muslims in Karnataka: in the coastal region they speak a variety of Malayalam. (I merely wished to point out that the stereotype of Urdu as a 'Muslim language', and that 'all Muslims speak Urdu, also when it is not locally rooted' is mistaken - I had the impression, itself perhaps mistaken, that this was still being believed here.) On another note: we should not forget the Karnatakan contribution to the development of Urdu (i.e., the Dakkani form) in the Bijapur-Gulbarga area, where it was cultivated at royal courts before it became fashionable to do so in the north. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri Feb 2 01:13:44 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 02:13:44 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit/Udru/Hindi (Re: Did you hear this?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067057.23782.3364377768727624919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Sa, 03 Feb 2001 schrieb Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic: > > My own > >experience is that it is better to speak Urdu in Delhi than Hindi > >(i.e., to say ";suruu karanaa" and "istemaal k." rather than > >"praarambha karanaa" and "prayoga k."), > I do not know where you got the idea that these are the words of Urdu and > not Hindi. Urdu would be " aap ka ism sharif?" instead of "what is your > name?". The usage that you quoted are obscurantism and examples of > Raghubiri Hindi which never got hold even in the academia. Perhaps precisely the opposite is more the case: the number of academic publications that follow the above distinction is rather innumerable, whereas for non-academicians (e.g., my daughter) Hindi may be "the language of Shahrukh Khan". In academia a certain terminology concerning these matters has already been established (based on a practice in the land, even if there are persons who disagree with it), and it seems not desirable to alter it. > >More or less; like in Canada or New Zealand. And why not? > Not so much in Canada which is more influenced by the media across the > border than by loyalty to the queen. Now wait a minute: what I learnt in school in Canada ;-) was distinctly more British than US-American, and Canadian dictionaries show the same. While some newspapers follow US spelling (maybe for the ease of spelling correction software?) and some persons do too, you will also find those who vehemently oppose it - more because they appreciate being distinct from Americans rather than because of 'loyalty to the queen'. In another message: > The acceptance of US form > internationally is due to its being more logical. So the European continent is not part of the international community, nor is the British commonwealth? Hm... RZ From goelsan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 2 12:02:13 2001 From: goelsan at YAHOO.COM (Sanjay Goel) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 04:02:13 -0800 Subject: Indology catalogue Message-ID: <161227066981.23782.7850290251512047207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some system for soft advertising will be usefull to the community. May be such mails can be sent to the founder with a request for further propogation. The founder can apply his judgement to propogate or not Sanjay Goel __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Feb 2 05:21:41 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 05:21:41 +0000 Subject: godhUli and goloka Message-ID: <161227066964.23782.6731371558094285046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Maharashtra, the evening hour is called godhUli or goraja hour because cows return home at that time. For wedding ceremonies, godhUli or goraja muhUrta is considered auspicious. Anyway thanks to Dr.Ganesan for sharing with us a nice Tamil verse.Regards N.R.Joshi. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 2 14:14:38 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 06:14:38 -0800 Subject: Hindi/Sanskrit/Urdu Message-ID: <161227066995.23782.7885951889156972965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > It is the East India Co. and Gilchrist which invented `Hindi' and >`Hindustani' as a Sanskritised form of Urdu. They and the pundits referred >to these as `Hindee' and `Hindoostanee'. In some book, I read that the sanskritized high Hindi is called RaghuvIri, named after the Chairman of the Commission that created official Hindi for administrtative purposes like radio. It was in Pundit Nehru times. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 2 14:17:00 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 06:17:00 -0800 Subject: godhUli and goloka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066997.23782.12660138457362736854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Tamilnadu also, very much the same. Early mornings and evenings of godhUli hours are considered highly auspicious, and hence ceremonies in temples, weddings, upanayanams, ... --- "Narayan R.Joshi" wrote: > In Maharashtra, the evening hour is called godhUli or goraja hour because > cows return home at that time. For wedding ceremonies, godhUli or goraja > muhUrta is considered auspicious. Anyway thanks to Dr.Ganesan for sharing > with us a nice Tamil verse.Regards N.R.Joshi. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 2 12:07:26 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 07:07:26 -0500 Subject: R: Vedic sculpture in Naples? Message-ID: <161227066983.23782.2109223398111576644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ancient looters or modern smugglers may have taken some sculptures to Italy, either to museums or for private collectors. Now this.. some scholars see cross in all cultures including vedic which preceded Jesus Christ! (Also talks of transmigration & Greece.) http://logon.org/english/s/p039.html have fun Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Feb 2 12:22:45 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 07:22:45 -0500 Subject: Vedic sculpture in Naples Message-ID: <161227066987.23782.17652676124822872514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ancient looters or modern smugglers may have taken some sculptures to Italy, either to museums or for private collectors." This is paranoia. Why not just assume it was bought from the craftsman or a previous owner? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Feb 2 08:00:52 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 08:00:52 +0000 Subject: sa.mkiir.naa -- any examples? In-Reply-To: <20010202032553.3686.qmail@web2206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227066968.23782.2486725533879179157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SuryaPrakash Sharma wrote: >> > Sanskrit word sa.mkiir.naa has a meaning in >> > Monier-Williams >> spsharma, >i have tried in dictionaries but the example are not >avilable.any how for your info the word is derived by >using prefix sam to root word kr(for doing)and suffix >na used to fom it. No, it is from kRR (or however you want to write *long* vocalic r), to scatter! BTW, the English words "brother" etc are not derived from bhraatR, etc, though they all go back to a common ancient source. There's a very good account of the process in T. Burrow, "The Sanskrit Language", reprint available in the laterst MLBD Newsletter. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Feb 2 08:13:47 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 08:13:47 +0000 Subject: R: Vedic sculpture in Naples? In-Reply-To: <20010201212050.RDNR26314.fep03-svc.tin.it@[212.216.131.228]> Message-ID: <161227066969.23782.17924836154587647495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The confusion may have been on the part of MLBD rather than the Italians. I suspect someone may have seen a notice about an exhibition of the Greek and Roman material from the "Museum Secretum" in Naples, and jumped to conclusions! Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK >I am a serious Italian indologist, and I feel me ashamed. >Sorry by Italy. >Daniela > >***************************************************** >Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella From shimj at USA.NET Fri Feb 2 08:41:47 2001 From: shimj at USA.NET (Jaekwan Shim) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 08:41:47 +0000 Subject: looking for a dictionary for Buddhist logic Message-ID: <161227066971.23782.16793682938840236698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, I'm looking for a dictionary or termonology for Buddhist logic or epistemology. I know "Terminologie der fruehen philosophischen Scholastik in Indien", published by the Oesterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften. But, years ago, I have heard of another dictionary for Buddhist logic or epistemology, probably, by Institut fur Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde of Wien. Any body know the title of that dictionary and how to order (if it exists)? many thanks, Jaekwan Shim Dept. of Philosophy Kangnung Univ. South Korea From kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE Fri Feb 2 09:22:39 2001 From: kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 10:22:39 +0100 Subject: R: Vedic sculpture in Naples? Message-ID: <161227066975.23782.10376575507217569002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The collection of the Museum in Naples contain at least 1 figurine of the godess Lakshmi, what has been found 1935 in Pompej (Insula I, Casa della Statuetta Indiana, #149425). Maybe they have one or two more? Regards, Katharina Kupfer -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Katharina Kupfer kupferka at uni-freiburg.de Sprachwissenschaftliches Seminar Albert-Ludwigs-Universitaet Freiburg Werthmannpl. 3 Phone: +49/761/203-3167 D-79085 Freiburg Fax: +49/761/203-3203 http://www.uni-freiburg.de/indogerm/kupfer.htm http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/tht.htm * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Fri Feb 2 05:54:49 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 11:24:49 +0530 Subject: The Farce that is HINDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227066966.23782.531579301797198844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Rohit Chopra wrote: > In fact, Hindustani - the language with words with Sanskrit, and Urdu > roots as well as Persian and Arabic etymological connections is a more > representative North Indian language than the completely artifical > Sanskritized Doordarshan Hindi which unfortunately has become the only > 'authentic' version of Hindi that the Indian state endorses. Hindee was basically invented by the British: "the term `Hindustani' was put into circulation by the British," the language is hence nowadays known as `Hinglish'. Hindee in general has had a debilitating impact on other regional languages. See the following article : `The Farce That Is Hindi,' Sushil Srivastava, EPW, http://www.epw.org.in/35-4344/disc.htm It is the East India Co. and Gilchrist which invented `Hindi' and `Hindustani' as a Sanskritised form of Urdu. They and the pundits referred to these as `Hindee' and `Hindoostanee'. Thus, Hindee is basically derived from the much older Urdu, but most of its speakers attempt to deny this. They hence live in a state of confusion, a state so well displayed in the present thread. Hindee was spread by the Brits in order to establish a new `lingua franca' for their empire. It is for this reason that this language is so dependant on English for its development (as noted by the above article). Indeed, the modern Hindee is almost fifty percent English; the modern generation hence refers to Hindi as `Hinglish' - a jocular reference to Gilchrist's invention. `When one is speaking something half-English, one might as well speak full English,' goes the usual logic, and the younger crowd has indeed largely discarded Hindi ie. Hinglish. Its heavy dependance on English is slowly becoming its nemesis. Indeed, two years back an English film (Titanic) beat all Hindee films at the box office for the first time in history. Last year, Mollywood had its worst year, mostly losing out to English films. Now, its funding (ie. the Mafia) has been exposed. So more bad news for Hindee. Also, a Boycott Bollywood website has been set up : http://members.tripod.com/~boycottB/ So still more bad news for Hindeee. Info on how the English invented Hindi and Hindustani also known as Hinglish : http://www.rc.umd.edu/praxis/containment/raley/raley.html Later, the Mahatma eagerly adopted this new dialect in order to forge an artificial Hindu-Muslim unity. However, he could never explain as to how his new `secular' creation was the only language in the world which somehow possessed two scripts. So most Hindus and Muslims rejected his pseudo-secular conspiracies aimed at creating a confused multi-racial Marxist-style melting-pot. In actual fact, Hindeee is an artificial p-sec language spoken by nobody. Regards, Samar From pf at CIX.CO.UK Fri Feb 2 11:33:00 2001 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (Peter Flugel) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 11:33:00 +0000 Subject: fonts Message-ID: <161227066979.23782.17621425882814995212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Has anyone experience with fonts for Word 2000? Please let me know some recommendations for transliterations and for Devanagari? Peter From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Fri Feb 2 11:24:28 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 12:24:28 +0100 Subject: Cakra-varti Rajah Message-ID: <161227066977.23782.9348919172485228855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Iyer, afraid I have to disagree with you on your etymology of Indo-European *kwe-kwl-o- (unfortunately no way yet to represent the correct IE transliteration characters on an HTML list). This word is documented in many Indo-European branches far away from Mesopotamia. It is generally considered to be of Indo-European origin, formed according to a well-known IE system of Ablaut and reduplication. The linguistic and areal spread of the word makes the IE origins of this word the simplest model, and therefore by ar the most acceptable one. Further, the use of the wheel, just like other features such as the use of horses for human purposes, are cultural features that suit the reconstructed nomadic origins of early Indo-European cultures very well. This, coupled with the documented spread of artwork including wheels and wheel-like abstractions seem to bolster the Indo-European reconstruction of this word. Your link with Sumerian gilgul is fascinating, though, because there may well be a link there, i.e. Sumerian taking over this word in an early stage of contact with Indo-European nomads. I wonder if some comments can be elicited from Sumerian and IE linguists? Yours, Gunthard Mueller gm at e-ternals.com Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > In the Monier-Williams dictionary, Caturvarti is not present. > > Wheel is gilgul in Sumerian > IE *kwe-kwl-o is said > to be related to Vedic cakra. Aryans have also borrowed > the term cakra that ultimately goes back to Mesopotamia. > > Indian use of chakravartin is very late compared to > Naram-Sin. See the Jaggayapeta stupa panel of the > Cakravarti Rajah at Govt. Museum, Chennai which > is usually dated to First century BC. Published, > for example, Roy C. Craven, Indian art, Thames > & Hudson, p. 76. > > Best wishes. > > ------------------ > Mr. Narayan Joshi wrote: > > Naram-Sin(2291-2255 BCE) in his reign chose the path of war and, at > least for a while, was rewarded by success. To the title of 'King of > Agade', he could proudly add those of 'King of the four regions(of > the World)'(shar kibrat 'arbem) and 'King of Universe' (shar > kishshati). Here the word 'shar' means a king. Is not this title > similar to the title of the ancient Indian kings, namely Cakra-varti > Rajah or Catur(four)-varti Rajah? It appears that kibret means four > (Catur)and kishshati means Universe (Cakra-varti). [snip] Now the > Indian title Cakra-varti cannot be Dravidian because to the best of > my knowledge sound combination like 'Cr' as in Cakra does not > appear in Dravidian. So it appears that the title Cakra-varti was > brought to India by Aryans. In that case Dravidians who knew > Middle-east countries did not learn anything. It appears that they > simply were faceless traders without any kings or titles like > Cakra-varti Rajah. Could there be any explanation different from > this? Thanks. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Feb 2 12:55:48 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 12:55:48 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit/Udru/Hindi (Re: Did you hear this?) Message-ID: <161227066989.23782.12387221433833697456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: > but even to this day the English written in India is still the British version when the rest > of the world and internet uses the American version. As far as I know, the English that is taught in UK schools and used in the media is still British English -- the same seems to be largely the case in New Zealand, Australia, many African countries and to a degree Canada. Fortunately there's still some life in the old dog yet :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Feb 2 13:02:43 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 13:02:43 +0000 Subject: Did you hear this? Message-ID: <161227066991.23782.3026782635636441091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SuryaPrakash Sharma wrote: > the english words "brother",and "sister" also are derived from sanskrit > root words"bhraatra" ,"swashaa",so if you can learn > sanskrityou will get the root from where all languages > starting. No, they are not -- that's like saying humans are descended from chimpanzees. In both cases, as far as I know, they are believed to derive from a common ancestor. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE Fri Feb 2 12:08:53 2001 From: grotebev at UNI-KOELN.DE (Tobias Grote-Beverborg) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 13:08:53 +0100 Subject: fonts Message-ID: <161227066985.23782.13892458759021273535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter Flugel schrieb: > > Has anyone experience with fonts for Word 2000? Please let > me know some recommendations for transliterations and for > Devanagari? Check out the webpage of the IITS Cologne , the IITS-Font is quite good for transliteration. It's similar to _Times New Roman_ and if you mix both they look pretty good. For Devanagari try _Xdvng_, I also got it from the web, but don't remember where. I can zip it and mail it to you if you want. Regards -- Tobias Grote-Beverborg ********************** D?rener Str. 272 D-50935 K?ln fon: 0221.3465777 mobil: 0177.6848202 fax: 0177.99.6848202 email: grotebev at uni-koeln.de From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri Feb 2 13:44:06 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 14:44:06 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit/Udru/Hindi (Re: Did you hear this?) In-Reply-To: <9sck7t04jjink3em2oe7cibrvit6gprhnm@4ax.com> Message-ID: <161227066993.23782.1418585496799725087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope I won't disturb Aditya's cheerfulness, or maybe I am a bit tired and fail to grasp the point, but there are a few things that I cannot follow, e.g.: Am 1 Feb 2001, um 23:21 schrieb Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Sk: > Urdu was as elitist as Sanskrit during muslim rule since it contained > words from Farsi that was language of the rulers. If this is a criterion for being ?litist, then I fear the vast majority of the world's languages are just that. It is in the nature of languages to borrow, also from ?lite languages. > It unfortunately became a symbol of Islam in India and Pakistan. It > is not the language of masses in either country No language is. > Except Pakistan and India muslims use the local language regardless > of their religion. (a) Muslims in Kerala speak Malayalam, those in Tamilnadu speak Tamil; (b) what is 'local'? Urdu is basically northwest Indian and well rooted there, as Rohit Chopra already mentioned. My own experience is that it is better to speak Urdu in Delhi than Hindi (i.e., to say ";suruu karanaa" and "istemaal k." rather than "praarambha karanaa" and "prayoga k."), because everybody understands the former, irrespective of whether Persian / Arabic once upon a time was / were ?litist or not. Urdu was not at all local in East Pakistan, but was local somewhere else, and so much so that it is not a "Muslim" language there; (c) maybe localness does not matter so much, as in: > At one time English was also associated with the language of the > British rulers but somehow it got de linked with the Raj There you go. > but even to this day the English written in India is still the > British version More or less; like in Canada or New Zealand. And why not? > when the rest of the world and internet uses the American version. Then I do not belong to the rest of the world. :-) > Have a peaceful and joyous day. You too. Sorry if there is some kind of misunderstanding in the above. RZ Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Feb 2 09:20:02 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 14:50:02 +0530 Subject: R: Vedic sculpture in Naples? Message-ID: <161227066973.23782.1955509866353423967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think MLBTD is on the list. Probably they can clarify. rajesh kochhar +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: Valerie J Roebuck >The confusion may have been on the part of MLBD rather than the Italians. >I suspect someone may have seen a notice about an exhibition of the Greek >and Roman material from the "Museum Secretum" in Naples, and jumped to >conclusions! > >Valerie J Roebuck >Manchester, UK > >>I am a serious Italian indologist, and I feel me ashamed. >>Sorry by Italy. >>Daniela >> >>***************************************************** >>Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 2 17:34:10 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 17:34:10 +0000 Subject: The Farce that is HINDI Message-ID: <161227067002.23782.13488743105881490137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:24:49 +0530, Samar Abbas wrote: >artificial Hindu-Muslim unity. However, he could never explain as to how >his new `secular' creation was the only language in the world which >somehow possessed two scripts. South Slavic Serbo-Croatian is also written in two scripts, Cyrillic for Serbian and Roman for Croatian. Raveen From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 2 18:13:12 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 18:13:12 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067003.23782.7273334146463642963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Was IVC violent? ---------------- In early 20th century, the prevailing scholarly view was that Mayan kings were peace loving and philosophical musers interested only in astronomy, and heavenly speculations. In recent years, when the Mayan civilization's script was decoded so their texts and inscriptions can be read, and as Mayan archaeology progresses, the old, romanticized view is overturned, and it becomes abundantly clear that the Mayas were a violent people. They sacrificed humans, and there was constant warfare amongst them. They took slaves from enemy states, and in late phases killed many captives and exhibited the dead bodies on show. Ultimately all this leads to abandonment of the Mayan cities. Looking at Tamil Nadu, archaeologically very few material remains to confirm the constant and incessant warfare among the many chiefs and kings in the first four centuries AD. Yet, when one reads the sangam texts of puRam poems, there are gory details of constant war and battles. The kings are accompanied by singing bards, drummers and minstrels. However, the musicians never participate in the fighting, acc. to sangam literature. The agricultural civilization's constant wars and descriptions of blood are very vivid, and they are not found in Sanskrit literature. Greek heroic poetry has been compared with the sangam corpus. For example in K. Kailasapathy, Tamil Heroic poetry, Oxford university press, 1968. The highly praised Sangam quality is "maRam" (valor) which is the opposite of "aRam" (dharma). MaRavar is a major caste among Tamils even today, and they assume the title, tEvar (< Skt. Deva). maRam 1. valour, bravery; 2. anger, wrath; 3. enmity, hatred; 4. strength, power; 5. victory; 6. war; 7. killing; murder; 8. yama; 9. injury; 10. vice, evil, sin; 11. a limb of kalampakam describing the refusal by mar6avars to give a girl of their clan to a king, in marriage. I wonder whether "maRam" is also well attested in old KannaDa texts. Sangam literature is full of it. "aRam" (dharma) is well attested in Tamil and KannaDa. For Kannada occurences, see http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0012&L=indology&P=R4228 The discontinuity from sangam times to the postsangam times is de-emphasizing the maRam aspects, and emphasizing "aRam" aspects in Life. In fact the immediately succeeding and a vast body of literature called 18 kIzhkkaNakku is full of dharmic teachings emphasizing aRam. Pallavan rule in fact patronizes the Sanskrit and Brahmins with large land grants. Probably the stability of Gupta dynasty in the North with their patronage of the Sanskrit culture provides a model to build kingdoms covering a wider area than hitherto possible. Earlier in sangam times when Tamils were transforming from an oral society towards literacy, the Brahmins and the Jainas were moving in, but the indigenous priests were the potters, washerfolk, conch shell cutters, and so on and their infuence is highly visible. The discontinuity from sangam to Pallavan era is accomplished by a radical shift of sponsorship from the native, often indigent, priests to the Brahmins. The Brahmins provided in Pallavan times an independent source of auspiciousness, magic and ritual which orignally were provided by people like musicians, potters, and washerfolk in earlier times. Pallavas desiring to build large area kingdoms stopped sponsoring the native priests and go for the Brahminical models of auspiciousness. State support started flowing to the Brahmins and the all encompassing Temple culture of South India was born. Old ways of several petty chieftains, each with a troupe of bards and constant battles, have come to pass when the kIzkkaNakku literature gets written emphasizing dharma, Pallavas rule, and the Brahmins and Temples flourish. The Indus Valley Culture (IVC) society was essentially oral, and their scripts did not evolve much and the script evolution is what one would expect if it was a literate society. A vast majority of the IVC seals has a mere 5 logographic signs, a main hurdle for their decoding. W. A. Fairservis and others suggest each animal symbol is totemic representing a kulam 'group' of folks. IVC has very few weapon remains left. Did these IVC groups also involve themselves in low-intensity, but constant conflicts? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Fri Feb 2 17:27:18 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 18:27:18 +0100 Subject: Cakra-varti Rajah Message-ID: <161227067000.23782.452138135575652245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those interested in these and similar speculations might enjoy reading an article by Gordon Whittaker in GOETTINGER BEITRAEGE ZUR SPRACHWISSENSCHAFT, Heft 1, Goettingen 1998, entitled "Traces of an Early Indo-European Language in Southern Mesopotamia". Whittaker attempts to show that the Sumerians were preceded by an IE people in the area. He connects Sumerian UMBIN, "wheel", with Sanscrit nabhi-, "navel", and OHG naba-, "wheel hub", and Sumerian GIGIR(A), "chariot, wagon", with PIE *kwekwlo- and Skt. cakra-. Some other parallels are: AB, "sea", Skt. ap- TEMEN, "foundation, cornerstone", Skt. dha:man- DIRIG, "glide away", Skt. dhrajati MAH(A), "great, grand", Skt. maha- PA(TE), "lord, ruler", Skt. pati- A similar attempt has been made by Douglas R. Frayne in "Indo-Europeans and Sumerians: Evidence for their Linguistic Contacts" in BCSMS, 25, 1993. Frayne relates Sum. TEMEN to Greek temenos and GIGIR to *kwekwlo- and cakra-. Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol, Oslo ---------- > From: Gunthard Mueller > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Cakra-varti Rajah > Date: 2. februar 2001 12:24 > > Dear Dr Iyer, > afraid I have to disagree with you on your etymology of Indo-European > *kwe-kwl-o- (unfortunately no way yet to represent the correct IE > transliteration characters on an HTML list). > This word is documented in many Indo-European branches far away > from Mesopotamia. It is generally considered to be of Indo-European > origin, formed according to a well-known IE system of Ablaut and > reduplication. The linguistic and areal spread of the word makes the > IE origins of this word the simplest model, and therefore by ar the most > acceptable one. > Further, the use of the wheel, just like other features such as the use > of horses for human purposes, are cultural features that suit the > reconstructed nomadic origins of early Indo-European cultures very > well. This, coupled with the documented spread of artwork including > wheels and wheel-like abstractions seem to bolster the Indo-European > reconstruction of this word. > > Your link with Sumerian gilgul is fascinating, though, because there > may well be a link there, i.e. Sumerian taking over this word in an > early stage of contact with Indo-European nomads. I wonder if some > comments can be elicited from Sumerian and IE linguists? > > Yours, > Gunthard Mueller > > gm at e-ternals.com > > Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > > > In the Monier-Williams dictionary, Caturvarti is not present. > > > > Wheel is gilgul in Sumerian > IE *kwe-kwl-o is said > > to be related to Vedic cakra. Aryans have also borrowed > > the term cakra that ultimately goes back to Mesopotamia. > > > > Indian use of chakravartin is very late compared to > > Naram-Sin. See the Jaggayapeta stupa panel of the > > Cakravarti Rajah at Govt. Museum, Chennai which > > is usually dated to First century BC. Published, > > for example, Roy C. Craven, Indian art, Thames > > & Hudson, p. 76. > > > > Best wishes. > > > > ------------------ > > Mr. Narayan Joshi wrote: > > > > Naram-Sin(2291-2255 BCE) in his reign chose the path of war and, at > > least for a while, was rewarded by success. To the title of 'King of > > Agade', he could proudly add those of 'King of the four regions(of > > the World)'(shar kibrat 'arbem) and 'King of Universe' (shar > > kishshati). Here the word 'shar' means a king. Is not this title > > similar to the title of the ancient Indian kings, namely Cakra-varti > > Rajah or Catur(four)-varti Rajah? It appears that kibret means four > > (Catur)and kishshati means Universe (Cakra-varti). [snip] Now the > > Indian title Cakra-varti cannot be Dravidian because to the best of > > my knowledge sound combination like 'Cr' as in Cakra does not > > appear in Dravidian. So it appears that the title Cakra-varti was > > brought to India by Aryans. In that case Dravidians who knew > > Middle-east countries did not learn anything. It appears that they > > simply were faceless traders without any kings or titles like > > Cakra-varti Rajah. Could there be any explanation different from > > this? Thanks. > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Fri Feb 2 21:15:55 2001 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 22:15:55 +0100 Subject: kinnaru (Smearing the Drums) Message-ID: <161227067005.23782.1128104737155128062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, It appears that kinnaru is older in Akkadian than I thought. The word is attested at Ebla as GI.NA.RU12. This means that it is unlikely to be Sumerian. It seems to be an Akkadianized foreign word, but at this early time (2400 BC?) it cannot have entered Akkadian through Amorite dialects. Some later texts from Ugarit give the impression that kinnaru was a drum; perhaps it was a general word for different kinds of musical instruments? Best wishes, Bjarte Kaldhol From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 2 22:21:16 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 22:21:16 +0000 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) Message-ID: <161227067009.23782.15996256602741608227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oxford encyclopaedia of Archaeology in the Near East describes that often times female musicians are portrayed naked in the ancient Near East, while they have some head ornaments and wigs. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0101&L=indology&P=29933 In Tamil sangam poetry, the viRaliyar, the female minstresses are often described in erotic terms, and they are said to be scantily clad. entu kOTTu alkul mukiz nakai maTavaral kUntal viRaliyar vazagkuka aTuppu E - pati. 18:5-6 pANTil viLakku parUu cuTar azala nal nutal viRaliyar ATum - pati. 47:6-7 aTi varunta neTitu ERiya koTi marugkul viRaliyar um E - puRa. 139:3-4 vIgku iRai taTaIya amai maruL paNai tOL Entu ezil mazai kaN van2aintu varal iLa mulai pU tukil alkul tEm pAy kUntal min2 izai viRaliyar nin2 maRam pATa - pati. 54:3-6 izai aNi polinta Entu kOTTu alkul maTavaral uN kaN vAL nutal viRali - puRa. 89:1-2 All this leads an early translator of pattuppATTu to write: "The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise her whole body could not have been described." (J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55) Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Fri Feb 2 23:09:48 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 23:09:48 +0000 Subject: The Farce that is HINDI Message-ID: <161227067011.23782.14843216165095401170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.angelfire.com/indie/himhindi/introch0.html -Arun Gupta From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM Fri Feb 2 22:16:13 2001 From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 01 23:16:13 +0100 Subject: The Farce that is HINDI Message-ID: <161227067007.23782.12890822778811757673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oh, by the way-- German was written in two alphabets until the 20th century, too. In the beginning of the century, my own grandfather, Franz Betz, a classical scholar and politician, used to work openly against the Nazis as long as it was possible (roughly until the emergency laws came into effect, 1933). On the cultural side, he tried to help make Germany less inward-bound and less nationalist by letting it adopt the Latin alphabet used by most of the rest of the western world, as replacement for the obscure Frakturschrift favoured by the traditionalists and of course the nationalists. Getting Germany out of the obscure Frakturschrift was only one of his minor concerns... Although of course at that time it was an issue loaded with symbolism. One of the lessons I find in all this: don't use alphabets/scripts to make a country more provincial. Use them to bring us all closer to each other. Teach them, simplify them, compute them... Yours, Gunthard gm at e-ternals.com Raveen Satkurunathan wrote: > On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:24:49 +0530, Samar Abbas wrote: > > >artificial Hindu-Muslim unity. However, he could never explain as to how > >his new `secular' creation was the only language in the world which > >somehow possessed two scripts. > > South Slavic Serbo-Croatian is also written in two scripts, Cyrillic for > Serbian and Roman for Croatian. > > Raveen From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Feb 3 00:19:13 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 00:19:13 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067013.23782.204156259976461701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:13:12 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >emphasizing aRam. Pallavan rule in fact patronizes the >Sanskrit and Brahmins with large land grants. Probably the stability >of Gupta dynasty in the North with their patronage of the Sanskrit >culture provides a model to build kingdoms covering a wider area than >hitherto possible. Earlier in sangam times when Tamils were >transforming from an oral society towards literacy, the Brahmins and >the Jainas were moving in, but the indigenous priests were the >potters, washerfolk, conch shell cutters, and so on and their >infuence is highly visible. The discontinuity from sangam to Pallavan >era is accomplished by a radical shift of sponsorship from the native, >often indigent, priests to the Brahmins. You are saying in pre-Pallava times, it was "indigenous priests" in contradistinction to Brahmins were the mainstay of priesthood. Please read Prof.S.Vaiyapuri Pillai's "Life of Amcient Tamils". It is at http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/5828/tcpthv.htm#castes. Prof.Vaiyapuri Pillai mentions: The section on "Fourfold Jathis" says: At the time of Tholkappiam (my words: the earliest Tamil literure), the four fold division of jatis were in vogue. Tholkappiyam mentions the fourfold division as Brahmins, Kings, vaishyas and Vellalas. (Thol. Marabus:71, 72, 77, 81). Purananuru 181 also refers to fourfold varnas., etc, etc...... The next section on Brahmins says: Of the fourfold varnas, Brahmins were considered as special. It was to Brahmins that (Tamil)Kings bowed. Ref Padirrupattu 63. Brahmins did the yagnas required by the Kings (Puram.224). Kings sent Brahmins as ambassadors to other countries(Puram 34). It was the brahmins who got the vedic religion and education (Puram 22). Those who gave trouble to brahmins were considered as great sinners (Puram 34) Kings preserved Brahmins by givin donations of Nadus.(Puram 122). Brahmins also became rulers sometimes. Tholkappiyam Marabu 80 says: Kingship can go to Brahmins. It was not considered degrading for brahmins to become rulers (Puram 200). So if Vaiyapuri Pillai is to be belived, it looks like brahmins had become well established by CT time. Any comments? From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 3 02:54:50 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 02:54:50 +0000 Subject: The Farce that is HINDI Message-ID: <161227067015.23782.14743517879424483124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > Hindee was basically invented by the British: What about Kabir (1398-?): "hIrA parA bajAr maiN rahA chhAr lapaTAy" Raidas (1398-1448)? "prabhujI tum chandan ham pAnI, jAkI a.ng a.ng bAs samAni" Amir Khosrow (1283-)? "raajaa pyaasaa kyo.n? gadahaa udaasaa kyo.n?" (loTaa na thaa) What about Ibrahim Adil Shah (-1618)? "bujhaauu diipak ko, tarAsuu diinkar aavegaa." The word "Hindavi" was used by Khusrow, "Hindi" was used by Sharfuddin Yazdi (1424). The word Urdu did not come into use until 1645, and even then what is now called Urdu continued to be often called Hindi well until 1850. >Indeed, the modern Hindee is almost fifty percent English; There are several Hindi newspapers on the web, in case one doesn't have access to printed ones. They do have English words, perhaps 5%. It is one thing to presents one's point of view, perhaps even stretch things a little bit, but why isn't there any hesitation in outright gross exaggeration (specially by an academic researcher). Yashwant From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Feb 3 08:15:08 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 08:15:08 +0000 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067017.23782.963082491703916664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps they were wearing diaphanous cotton garments, as we see in sculptures at Amaravati and elsewhere? (Sorry, I can't read Tamil, so I'm just having to guess how revealing they were!) Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK N. Ganesan writes > >All this leads an early translator of pattuppATTu to write: >"The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise >her whole body could not have been described." >(J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55) From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 3 13:42:58 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 08:42:58 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit/Udru/Hindi (Re: Did you hear this?) In-Reply-To: <3A7AC7B6.12769.30E6F1@localhost> Message-ID: <161227067022.23782.9987624778295377984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos has written as follows: >I hope I won't disturb Aditya's cheerfulness, Where did you get the idea that any disagreement with my post could ever disturb my cheerfulness? I just relish any and all discussions of ideas. >If this is a criterion for being ?litist, then I fear the vast majority of >the world's languages are just that. It is in the nature of languages >to borrow, also from ?lite languages. What I was trying to convey is the sycophancy of the speakers who wanted be associated with the rulers by copying their speech or manners. Those who could do it considered themselves to be better than the rest of masses. > >> Except Pakistan and India muslims use the local language regardless >> of their religion. > >(a) Muslims in Kerala speak Malayalam, those in Tamilnadu speak >Tamil; (b) what is 'local'? Exactly my point. Urdu was the language of muslims in Punjab, UP, Bombay and Hyderabad. > My own >experience is that it is better to speak Urdu in Delhi than Hindi >(i.e., to say ";suruu karanaa" and "istemaal k." rather than >"praarambha karanaa" and "prayoga k."), I do not know where you got the idea that these are the words of Urdu and not Hindi. Urdu would be " aap ka ism sharif?" instead of "what is your name?". The usage that you quoted are obscurantism and examples of Raghubiri Hindi which never got hold even in the academia. >understands the former, irrespective of whether Persian / Arabic >once upon a time was / were ?litist or not. Urdu was not at all local >in East Pakistan, but was local somewhere else, and so much so >that it is not a "Muslim" language there; (c) maybe localness does >not matter so much, as in: Language is somehow considered to a necessary condition for patriotism and nationalism and promoted so by the politicians who would split the hair and carve a new language when separatism suits their interest. Pakistani leadership tried to impose a national language on the new political entity that was created by the British in 1947 though even in west Pakistan Sindhi, Balochi and other languages were then and now the language of communication. It is the mujahirs of Pakistan who still insist on imposing an artificial language and in the process they have failed to assimilate in the mainstream of Pakistan. The issue of Urdu has been one of the root causes of disharmony and distrust both in India and Pakistan to this day. >More or less; like in Canada or New Zealand. And why not? Not so much in Canada which is more influenced by the media across the border than by loyalty to the queen. >Universit?t M?nchen So you are in Munich now? How is your wife and has she recovered completely? Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Philosophy poses questions that may never be answered, religion answers that may never be questioned. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 3 14:30:59 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 09:30:59 -0500 Subject: Hindi/Sanskrit/Urdu In-Reply-To: <20010202141438.13392.qmail@web313.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067024.23782.17576251007403099136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan has written as follows: >> It is the East India Co. and Gilchrist which invented `Hindi' and >>`Hindustani' as a Sanskritised form of Urdu. They and the pundits referred >>to these as `Hindee' and `Hindoostanee'. It was in the nature of British academics to invent new spellings and words to look down the native speakers and only now we are slowly reverting to natural spellings from such constructions as "Cawnpore", "Peking", "Singapore" etc imposed by the British whose hearing was not attuned to the voice of the local subjects. The difference in US and UK English is also mainly the attempt to get rid of some weirdness of their spellings. The acceptance of US form internationally is due to its being more logical. > In some book, I read that the sanskritized high Hindi is called RaghuvIri, > named after the Chairman of the Commission that created official > Hindi for administrtative purposes like radio. It was in Pundit Nehru times. I do remember Prof. Raghubir who had inherited the ignoble spirit of the British pseudo scholars and compiled several dictionaries in every field of study by coining new terms instead of adopting from other language. He had new names and symbols for all the elements of Periodic table regardless of who discovered them. He did not even like greek letters used in Mathematics and dy/dx etc. I do not know the source of his funding but it seems unlikely that Nehru would have approved him. There are still many demagog politicians in India who want to impose his invention on the poor voters but send their own children to English medium schools and prepare for TOEFL tests. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: I don't have a solution but I admire the problem. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Feb 3 10:23:31 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 10:23:31 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067019.23782.8378391421168477310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:13:12 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >hitherto possible. Earlier in sangam times when Tamils were >transforming from an oral society towards literacy, the Brahmins and >the Jainas were moving in, but the indigenous priests were the >potters, washerfolk, conch shell cutters, and so on and their >infuence is highly visible. The discontinuity from sangam to Pallavan >era is accomplished by a radical shift of sponsorship from the native, >often indigent, priests to the Brahmins. Terms like "indegenous priests", "Brahmins and the Jainas were moving in", "native" , "sponsorship" seem to be more ideological constructs. Is there any historical evidence to use these words? For example how do you prove that potter-priests were any more native than say Brahmins? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 3 11:25:21 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 11:25:21 +0000 Subject: Did the IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067020.23782.4429699989540920347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From Prof. Asko Parpola: > As you will see from my 1994 book (last chapter), I think the >Harappans worshipped a goddess of war and offered human sacrifices to her. >It is possible, however, as I now think, that this >"proto-Durgaa" was a relatively late addition to their pantheon, and >that Murugan whom I believe the Harappans also worshipped, might also >have acquired his warring nature at this late phase only, having at first >been mainly a fertily god associated with childbirth. I suspect >that the military functions of these divinities were imported partly from >Mesopotamia, partly from Afghanistan (by the incoming Daasas, the first >wave of the Aryans). As to the Old Tamils, though their traditions >undoubtedly go back to the Indus Vally, I think their martial heritage >largely derives from the Iron Age Megalithic culture >that diffused all over the peninsular India from the north and was probably >initiated by a new wave of originally Iranian-speaking Aryans around 800 >BC. In an article from 1984, and a new just submitted for publication, I am >connecting the Megalithic culture with the PaaNDavas and the PaaNDyas. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Feb 3 19:42:31 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 14:42:31 -0500 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) Message-ID: <161227067034.23782.17119296283008027649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/2/2001 4:21:40 PM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > In Tamil sangam poetry, the viRaliyar, the female minstresses > are often described in erotic terms, and they are said to be > scantily clad. Is "minstresses" a Freudian slip? :-) In any case, for the sake of members like Prof. Roebuck, it will be good if Dr. Ganesan can provide translations of the texts quoted below and demonstrate the eroticism he talks of. Of course, he can give his thesis some logical basis, if he can show that descriptions similar to the following are not used in case of women other than viRaliyar. And let the discussion be confined to CT please. > > entu kOTTu alkul mukiz nakai maTavaral > kUntal viRaliyar vazagkuka aTuppu E > - pati. 18:5-6 > > pANTil viLakku parUu cuTar azala > nal nutal viRaliyar ATum > > - pati. 47:6-7 > > aTi varunta neTitu ERiya > koTi marugkul viRaliyar um E > - puRa. 139:3-4 > > vIgku iRai taTaIya amai maruL paNai tOL > Entu ezil mazai kaN van2aintu varal iLa mulai > pU tukil alkul tEm pAy kUntal > min2 izai viRaliyar nin2 maRam pATa > > - pati. 54:3-6 > > izai aNi polinta Entu kOTTu alkul > maTavaral uN kaN vAL nutal viRali > > - puRa. 89:1-2 > Regards S. Palaniappan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 3 16:55:25 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 16:55:25 +0000 Subject: Goddess Ellammaa Message-ID: <161227067027.23782.4994422515677335075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in published references detailing or analyzing the popular goddess called ellammA. Particularly from the Andhra, Karnataka and Maharashtra regions. She is also called(/related with) ReNukA and Maari. A. Singaravelu Mudaliar, Abithana Chintamani, The encyclopaedia of Tamil literature (First edition: 1899) and other books tell about her life legends: ReNukA, wife of Jamadagni, lost her heart to a Gandharva named Citrasena by looking at his image in the river waters. Jamadagni orders Parashurama (their own son) to kill her for this crime (losing chastity, 'kaRpu' in tamil). Some ellammaa/maari temple stalapurANams state that only Ellamma's head is visible above the ground level and fit for worship because Parasuram revived Ellammaa by fixing her head on top of the body of a low caste lady. In the entry on Maari, the popular small-pox goddess, A. S. Mudaliar tells a variant of the above legend of the Goddess Maariyamman: KArtavIrya's sons kill Jamadagni, and irENukai commits satii. Indra orders VaruNa to extinguish the sati fire. irENukai, having lost her clothes in the fire, and with burns on her skin, drapes neem tree leaves and reaches the Pulaiyar quarters of the village (pulaiccEri, traditional funerary ritualists) and also, the washerfolks and partakes food among the Pulayas and VaNNaar (washermen). Finally Shiva appears on the scene, blesses Maari to become the village goddess to remove the small pox which resembles the burns she herself suffered and gives a powerful boon to hurt those who don't pray to her using her ChaNDALa-rUpam, (the version as recorded by Sri. Mudaliar). I think the tensions between ancient Dravidian models of auspiciousness invested in folks like washerwoman as recorded in the Sangam corpus versus the brahminical system is brought out vividly in the ellammA legends. In Karnataka and in temples like Periyapalayam in AP near Madras, girls not wearing clothes but only neem leaves visit ellamma temple on festive days. Devadasis are dedicated in modern Karnataka at the ellammaa temples. In Tamil, the root "el-" means bright, light, auspicious. ellavan2 = 'sun, moon'. 'ellappa nAvalar' was a famous poet. 'ellALan' was a Tamil king of Lanka mentioned in Sinhala chronicles like Mahavamsa. reNu means pollen which is yellow like turmeric, paddy and gold, all auspicious substances. In the sanskritization from ellammaa, the meaning 'light, auspicious' is translated and rendered as reNukA. In describing a King's white parasol, its light/brightness and viRal 'power, strength, victory' are compared. veL kuTai viLakkum viRal kezu vEntu E - puR. 213;2 In sangam poetry, viRaliyar dance and the pANtil viLakku 'bowl-lamp' is mentioned together. pANTil viLakku parUu cuTar azala nal nutal viRaliyar ATum - pati. 47:6-7 In the post-sangam poetry, temple dancers are usually mentioned with the kumbha-lamp. Eg., ANTAL and other Alvar saints and other medieval tamil lit. This makes one wonder whether the pANTil-viLakku (pANTil = (mud) bowl/small cup) is the proto-kuTaviLakku of dancers in postsangam times. In post-sangam times, devadAsi dancers, considered the ever auspicious women, had a main duty to wave pot-lamps in front of deities and kings for purposes of lustration or investing auspiciousness. "5. The task of waving the pot-lamp (kumbhAratti) is central to the phenomenon of the Devadasi. This ritual which removes the evil eye (dRSTi) from the God was the legitimation for the status of Devadasi and all rights and previleges that went with it. All devadasi informants remembered the kumbhArati ritual, some of them only that and nothing more. [...] The argument of the devadasi as remover of evil eye and harbinger of auspiciousness (mangalam) was elaborated by the present author in Nityasumangali, MLBD, 1987" (Saskia Kersenboom, TiruttaNi Koyil Sampradaya: The traditional repertoire of the devadasis of the Sri Subrahmanya Svami temple in Triuttani, p.47-58, JIAS, V, 2, 1988). Dubois and Beauchamp, Hindu manners, customs and ceremonies, OUP, 1906, p.149 "Whenever people in these positions have been obliged to show themselves in public, or to speak to strangers, they invariably call for the courtesans or dancing-girls from the temples to perform this [aratti] ceremony over them, and so avert any unpleasant consequences that might arise from the baleful glances to which they had been exposed. Kings and princes often have dancing girls in their employ who do nothing else but perform this ceremony. This aratti is also performed for idols. After the dancing-girls have finished all their other duties in the temple, they never fail to perform this ceremony twice daily over the images of the gods to whom their services are dedicated. It is performed with even more solemnity when these idols have been carried in procession through the streets so as to turn aside malignant influences, to which the gods are as susceptible as any ordinary mortal. [...] 1. The word aratti itself means trouble, misfortune, pain." Ellamma (=Yellamma) appears to be rooted in "bright/auspiciousness" aspects, and in modern Karnataka, nityasumangalis 'ever-auspicious' dancers are in these temples. Would be grateful for publications dealing with legends of the goddess ellamma/reNukaadevi, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Sat Feb 3 17:41:46 2001 From: mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Shailendra Raj Mehta) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 17:41:46 +0000 Subject: Hindi and Urdu Message-ID: <161227067030.23782.2646400591479725808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar, I am afraid your analysis of Hindi does not any hold water. (You spell Hindi in several different non-standard ways. I wonder why?) 1. Many others have pointed out that many languages have been written in multiple scripts. Serbo-Croatian and German have been mentioned. In addition virtually every language in India has been written in multiple scripts. Sanskrit, for example can be found in Devanagari, Roman, Grantha, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, and indeed dozens of other scripts (including many from South-East Asia). If you include the International Phonetic Alphabet, then every language is written in at least two scripts. Moreover, increasingly, Urdu in India is being written in the Devanagari script. I have personally read every single major Urdu poet in the original, and most Urdu short story writers too (I particularly enjoyed Sa?adat Hasan Manto), even though my knowledge of the Arabic script is imperfect. It is because they are all available in Devanagari. Your are probably aware of this, but in Uttar Pradesh and in much of North India, there is a large class of educated Muslims (the majority?) who cannot read the Arabic script at all. They read even the Q?uran in the Devanagari script. 2. But are you aware that a major intellectual feat (possibly unique in human history, as far as I know) is the project which is making available every major world text in Devanagari transliteration, with Hindi translation along side it, so that the sounds, phonetic structure and the music of the original might be enjoyed by anyone who knows Devanagari script/Hindi? I have read the Tirukkural and Kamban Ramayan this way, as well as the Q?uran, the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and much else besides. Moreover, and I have pointed this out before, with Unicode, script becomes irrelevant amongst Indian languages and before long one will be able to read Tamil, say, in Bengali script. 3. Contray to what you believe, Hindi is doing quite well. The quality and quantity of writers and writing in Hindi is as good as ever, though you would not get that impression if you read the colonial (or English) press. What has disappeared, though, is the mass of general interest magazines, but that is not unique to India, but a common consequence of the spread of TV. Actually, for the first time in history, a full time Hindi writer can be independent and depend solely on writing for a (very comfortable) living. 4. The only way in which one can get a pan-Indian view of writing in the Indian languages, contemporary or otherwise, is through Hindi, largely because of the wonderful translations done by Jnanpith, Sahitya Academy and others. The flavor of the original and much of the words can be preserved when moving from one Indian language to another in a way that is simply not possible, in, say, an English translation. 5. And Hindi films are doing very well, thank you. The conventional measure of a hit, is ticket sales in India, because that measure can be used to compare films over time. However, in the last several years, three other major sources of film revenue have become very important: overseas ticket sales, music rights and satellite rights. Each, of these is as important as the first. As a recent piece in India Today showed, a very large number of films in the year 2000 (the so called annus horribilis of Hindi cinema) were profitable even before release, when all of these revenue sources are combined. Their spread, too, is now global ? with major fan bases (most of it not among the Indian diaspora) in China, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Central Asia, Middle East, North and East Africa, the Caribbean, England, Russia, United States, Canada and parts of Latin America. (For example my Chinese, Malaysian and Indonesian students have seen most of the major Hindi films, both old and new.) With European, Japanese and Chinese film making endeavours in major decline, Hollywood has only one global competitor ? in Hindi (and to a lesser extend in Tamil) films. 6. Actually, the language that is in real trouble in India, and for that matter in Pakistan as well, is Urdu. Urdu and Hindi have a common grammatical base, and use identical verbs, adverbs and numbers. Hindi uses Sanskrit nouns and adjectives, while Urdu mainly relies on Persian and Arabic for them. Hinglish uses English nouns and adjectives. Thus, and this is important to understand, since no one, as far as I am aware, seems to have pointed this out before (I am writing a paper on it) the Hindi grammatical core remains in Hinglish, but the Urdu entirely disappears! Example ? Hindi: Ap ek prayog kIjIye. Urdu: Ap ek tajurbA kIjIye. Hinglish: Ap ek experiment kIjIye. Just as Urdu emerged from Hindi, so is Hinglish emerging from Hindi and in so doing is replacing almost all of the Urdu heritage. In fact, I am afraid, Urdu as we know it, is in danger of disappearing completely. And even sympathetic observers such as the politician Mulayam Singh Yadav (whose love for Urdu and for the Muslim heritage are second to none) have warned that the only future of Urdu in India is in the Devanagari script. I hope the irony is not lost on Samar Abbas. Shailendra Raj Mehta Purdue University. From mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Sat Feb 3 17:55:17 2001 From: mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Shailendra Raj Mehta) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 01 17:55:17 +0000 Subject: Urdu Message-ID: <161227067032.23782.7783387840608209677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: "Muslims in Kerala speak Malayalam, those in Tamilnadu speak Tamil; (b) what is 'local'? Urdu is basically northwest Indian and well rooted there, as Rohit Chopra already mentioned. " What about the Muslims in Karanataka and Andhra Pradesh? They all speak a (very gracious) Deccani Urdu. Shailendra Raj Mehta Purdue University From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Feb 4 07:36:02 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 02:36:02 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067038.23782.4496838966113384575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya has written as follows: >Here is the url of an extremely interesting article that you may wish to >read: > >http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2000-weekly/tapest-24-08-2000/#2 > >Comments? It is a very interesting speech by Justice Katju who is a well know Urdu poet but there are a few flaws in his observations and conclusions that Urdu is not a muslim language. While talking about Justice Reddy, it is worthwhile asking why was Urdu and not Telgu the language of instruction in Osmania if not due to it being a language related to the muslim ruler Nizam. Had Reddy gone to any other state, would he have learned Urdu equally well? Both Katju and Reddy became conversant in Urdu not because of any love of the language but primarily because they were planning a career in Judicial system where Urdu was the official language till 1947 as mentioned by Katju himself. It is just like English being the preferred language now due to its importance in the job market. It is true that when I went to school during last days of British Raj, 50% of both Hindu and Muslim students studied Urdu because of its being preferred in job market. Of course, English was a compulsory subject for all. The court language of Urdu was never easy to comprehend specially due to its script which makes it much harder at least for me to decipher since often one has to guess which dot belongs to which character in a string of characters. It is to the credit of Kamal Pasha who realized the failings of Arabic script and changed the script for Turkish. A common script for Hindi and Urdu would have made them indistinguishable. When Katju talks of language of the market place he does not mention that the market place does not have a script but only sound. The news in today's paper about the conversation between Musarraf and Bajpai was so easy and natural to conduct on telephone but had they communicated to each other in writing, it would have been impossible without an interpreter, Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everybody will respect you. - Lao-Tzu From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 4 05:14:39 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 05:14:39 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067036.23782.491913674026616367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the url of an extremely interesting article that you may wish to read: http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2000-weekly/tapest-24-08-2000/#2 Comments? -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Feb 4 09:50:34 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 09:50:34 +0000 Subject: fonts In-Reply-To: <3A7AA355.F6DA9188@uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: <161227067042.23782.2107699078105428223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tobias Grote-Beverborg writes: >For Devanagari try _Xdvng_, I also got it from the web, but don't >remember where. I can zip it and mail it to you if you want. Xdvng is certainly better than other Devanagari fonts I've seen, but the version I've got (for Mac) isn't complete. Various conjuncts with c and palatal s' seem to be missing. I'm still looking for a really good version of Devanagari for Mac! Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Sun Feb 4 17:14:07 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 12:14:07 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067053.23782.16259751648745365900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> That's an interesting perspective. Now that you put it that way, it seems the way knowledge of the Urdu script has been utterly marginalised in India since independence has helped to cut people off from the literature associated with the period of Mughal rule. If people cannot read Dagh or Ghalib, even though they could very easily if it were transliterated into Devanagari, it's easy for them to dismiss the period of Muslim rule in India as a time of barren oppression rather than the hugely influential part of India's cultural heritage that it was. Mandating six months instruction in the Urdu script to any child who reads or studies Hindi (as most do) could have remedied that. It seems the Hinduising establishment made a conscious decision to cut people off from this heritage, and I suspect the growing virulence of anti-Muslim prejudice in India today (much of it justified by angry rhetoric about the period of Muslim rule, rather than by anything in the present time) can be laid at the door of this. Regards, Rohan. >Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: > >> It is to the credit of Kamal Pasha who realized the failings of >Arabic >> script and changed the script for Turkish > >While it is true that Arabic script is particularly unsuited for >writing Turkish and a move to the use of a Roman script undoubtedly >helped improve literacy rates dramatically, one must realize that >Ataturk had other agendas at the same time arising from his >totalitarian programme of secularization. > >By virtually outlawing the use of Arabic script he was also able to >ensure access to older religious -- especially Sufi -- literature >became much more difficult and thus was able restrict the transmission >of most religious teaching. This is corroborated by the fact that he >also made all Sufi meeting places, the use of religious titles like >Sheikh, the "sema" ritual of the Mevlevis ete etc illegal. His covert >aim can be seen as little less that the outright elimination of Islam >from most areas of life. It is only in reecent years that Sufi >literature has begun to be easily available in romanized Turkish. > >A similar idea seems to lie in part behind the Communist Chinese >simplification of the Chinese script, the reduction of current >characters and the several attempts to replace the traditional script >with Pin-yin romanization. If people cannot read their classics, then >their minds will not be "polluted" by the ideas contained therein. > >Imagine what the level of religious understanding and knoweldge would >be in India now of all the religious and philosophical classics if the >British, for example, had outlawed devanagari and other traditional >scripts in favour of total romanization ! > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Feb 4 18:51:27 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 13:51:27 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067059.23782.11883606991088536509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU has written as follows: >That's an interesting perspective. Now that you put it that way, it >seems the way knowledge of the Urdu script has been utterly >marginalised in India since independence has helped to cut people off >from the literature associated with the period of Mughal rule. If >people cannot read Dagh or Ghalib, even though they could very easily >if it were transliterated into Devanagari, it's easy for them to >dismiss the period of Muslim rule in India as a time of barren >oppression rather than the hugely influential part of India's cultural >heritage that it was. I cannot at all agree with your conclusions. I find it much easier to read Ghalib's poetry in Devnagri than in Urdu script even though I can read both. One can reproduce those works on a CD without any need for a script as most cinema goers today do not care or know the script in which the dialogs and lyrics are written. I do not seen any great need to burden every child with another script just to read a few items. Moreover just because they do not read Urdu script does not by itself leads to the conclusion that Muslim rule was just oppression. I think the rule of Akbar was far less oppressive than many Hindu rulers of his time. It is OK for scholars, archaeologists and indologists to study ancient languages but to mandate it to all is no better than mandating Sanskrit or Pali or Swahili. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: I thought about being born again, but my mother refused. From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 4 08:22:35 2001 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 13:52:35 +0530 Subject: Goddess Ellammaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067040.23782.7202375585654348894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:55 PM 2/3/01 +0000, you wrote: >In Karnataka and in temples like Periyapalayam >in AP near Madras, Periayapalayam is in TN only. The Goddess is now-a-days called Bavani Amman. In the Month of Adi, especially all the four days of Adi VeLLi, it is a sea of humanity. Huge numbers of Tamilians (irrespective the caste origins, including Brahmins) visit there and fulfill their vows. The vow could be for anything like marriage, getting cured from various kinds of 'Ammai', getting well in life. etc. It must have been a tribal practice for centuries in the ThoNdai maNdalam region of the North Tamilnadu. The temple situated on the banks of the river AraNi is slowly getting brahminized, as elsewhere. Still the original practice of devotees, after taking bath in the river, (now-a-days, the river is dry most of the times; hence people pail water from the dug-out pits in the river bed) going around the temple three times and wearing neem leaves is still going on. People also bring goats and domestic fowl as offerings and leave and sacrifice them here. Thousands also make 'Pongal' here. Some also cook the slaughtered animals by the wayside and offer to guests and relatives who have assembled there, along with the Pongal. The temple appears to be a 'Pallipadai, if you look at Sanctum Sanctorum. It is a place to be visited during the month of Adi. In Tamilnadu, as elsewhere in India, the tribal temples slowly get converted to brahminized practices; initially half way with the uneasy practice of braminized customs and non-braminized customs existing side by side with a paNdAram offering Araththi to the godess. After some number of years (this could be even few decades), the brahmin priest takes over from the paNdAram. Gradually the non-brahmin customs gets modified. For example the tribal practice of a goat sacrifice will get changed to a bumpkin breakage (with kunkum paste mimicking blood) Earlier paNdAram would have poured/sprayed water over the goat and showed Araththi. Now the Brahmin priest would be spraying water placing camphor over the bumpkin, after kunkum is smeared over. The bumpkin with burning camphor would be used for Araththi to ward of evil and it would be broken outside of the temple. Eventually yAgam and other fire offerings of Brahmins would come along. The tribal practices will get stopped completely. With Regards, irAma.ki. >girls not wearing clothes but only neem >leaves visit ellamma temple on festive days. Devadasis are >dedicated in modern Karnataka at the ellammaa temples. > >In Tamil, the root "el-" means bright, light, auspicious. >ellavan2 = 'sun, moon'. 'ellappa nAvalar' was a >famous poet. 'ellALan' was a Tamil king of Lanka >mentioned in Sinhala chronicles like Mahavamsa. >reNu means pollen which is yellow like turmeric, >paddy and gold, all auspicious substances. In the sanskritization >from ellammaa, the meaning 'light, auspicious' is >translated and rendered as reNukA. > >Would be grateful for publications dealing with legends of >the goddess ellamma/reNukaadevi, >N. Ganesan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 4 14:22:58 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 14:22:58 +0000 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) Message-ID: <161227067045.23782.9825629075491177885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Roebuck wrote: >Perhaps they were wearing diaphanous cotton garments, as we see in >sculptures at Amaravati and elsewhere? Dr. Roebuck, Dr. Palaniappan, Yes, perhaps diaphanous garments. Usually the viRaliyar, dancing girls descriptions will include words like , " nuN izai" (=thin yarn). "izai" has another meaning which is "strings". Let me give two translations from G. Hart, H. Heifetz, The four hundred songs of war and wisdom, Columbia univ. press, 1999. My wish is more translations like these become available. > entu kOTTu alkul mukiz nakai maTavaral > kUntal viRaliyar vazagkuka aTuppu E > - pati. 18:5-6 [No translation published, Listers can give it a try.] [...] > > aTi varunta neTitu ERiya > koTi marugkul viRaliyar um E > - puRa. 139:3-4 "and for my dancing womwn too, waists as thin as vines and their feet aching from the long climb" (p. 88) > > vIgku iRai taTaIya amai maruL paNai tOL > Entu ezil mazai kaN van2aintu varal iLa mulai > pU tukil alkul tEm pAy kUntal > min2 izai viRaliyar nin2 maRam pATa > > - pati. 54:3-6 [No translation published] > > izai aNi polinta Entu kOTTu alkul > maTavaral uN kaN vAL nutal viRali > > - puRa. 89:1-2 > "Woman of the caste of bards! With your shining forehead and your eyes darkened by collyrium, with your simple simple manners and your sloping mons glowing with a string of pearls, ..." (p. 64) The words used here in the description of the dancers are alkul 'mons pubis' and mulai 'breast'. I guess in the agricultural civilization around the beginning of CE, fertility was significant to the society, and dancers added auspicious lustre to the kings and heros of war. Since 'alkul' and 'mulai' are employed, the scholar Prof. J. V. Chelliah wrote his logical conclusion: >"The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise >her whole body could not have been described." >(J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55) Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rospatt at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 4 14:53:08 2001 From: rospatt at HOTMAIL.COM (Alexander v. Rospatt) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 14:53:08 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227067049.23782.11793639623415577026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Experts, I am writing an encyclopedia article on Jainism and need to provide the population figure for Jains living in India. I only know of the Census of India from ca. 1982 which I believe gives the number of ca. 3 mio. Could anyone enlighten me where I can find more recent data on the Jain populuation. With many thanks, A.v.Rospatt _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Feb 4 21:16:10 2001 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 16:16:10 -0500 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) Message-ID: <161227067063.23782.16733356086778348405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/4/2001 8:23:05 AM Central Standard Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > entu kOTTu alkul mukiz nakai maTavaral > > kUntal viRaliyar vazagkuka aTuppu E > > - pati. 18:5-6 > [No translation published, Listers can give it a try.] There is no point in other listers trying to translate this. Clearly, Dr. Ganesan chose these excerpts to buttress his case that "In Tamil sangam poetry, the viRaliyar, the female minstresses are often described in erotic terms, and they are said to be scantily clad." To evaluate if these excerpts indeed support his case, we have to know Ganesan's understanding of these excerpts, not other listers'. So the lack of any published translations is immaterial. > [...] > > > > aTi varunta neTitu ERiya > > koTi marugkul viRaliyar um E > > - puRa. 139:3-4 > > "and for my dancing womwn too, waists as thin > as vines and their feet aching from the long climb" > (p. 88) > > > > > vIgku iRai taTaIya amai maruL paNai tOL > > Entu ezil mazai kaN van2aintu varal iLa mulai > > pU tukil alkul tEm pAy kUntal > > min2 izai viRaliyar nin2 maRam pATa > > > > - pati. 54:3-6 > [No translation published] See above. It will be good if Ganesan can give us his understanding of the excerpt. > > > > izai aNi polinta Entu kOTTu alkul > > maTavaral uN kaN vAL nutal viRali > > > > - puRa. 89:1-2 > > > > "Woman of the caste of bards! With your shining forehead > and your eyes darkened by collyrium, with your simple > simple manners and your sloping mons glowing with a > string of pearls, ..." (p. 64) > > The words used here in the description of the dancers are > alkul 'mons pubis' and mulai 'breast'. I am increasingly getting dismayed at the lack of proper philological analysis of Tamil texts and the resulting misunderstanding of Tamil literature and culture. alkul refers to a person's hip region beginning below the narrowest portion of the body where it curves outward and then slopes inward as thighs. The profile of this part of the woman's body is compared to the hood of the cobra as well as chariots. Ornaments and clothes are worn over this portion of the body. Often ill-informed scholars have interpreted this as "mons pubis". There is no evidence that in CT usage, it referred to "mons pubis". Hart and Heifetz translate "alkul" as "hips and thighs" in reference to the wives of a brahmin praised in puR.166 in puR. 339 as "hips" in reference to some non-viRaliyar women . But in other places like puR. 240 they translate alkul as "mound of love" in reference to the wives of a chieftain, in puR.341 as "sloping mons" in reference to a warrior's daughter or as in puR.389 as "zones of love" in reference to the women of a chieftain's family. This second set of translations is unwarranted. > I guess in the > agricultural civilization around the beginning of CE, > fertility was significant to the society, and dancers > added auspicious lustre to the kings and heros of war. This is not germane to the issue at hand. > > Since 'alkul' and 'mulai' are employed, the scholar > Prof. J. V. Chelliah wrote his logical conclusion: > >"The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise > >her whole body could not have been described." > >(J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55) > I see no logic in the conclusion of either Chelliah or Ganesan. It is yet to be shown that the words "mulai" and "alkul" are not used in the descriptions of non-viRaliyar women. In any case, I have already shown examples of the use of alkul in connection with other women. So there is simply no basis to single out the viRaliyar as being described in erotic terms or as scantily clad. Regards S. Palaniappan From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Feb 4 16:39:04 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 16:39:04 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067051.23782.11114492109891238265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: > It is to the credit of Kamal Pasha who realized the failings of Arabic > script and changed the script for Turkish While it is true that Arabic script is particularly unsuited for writing Turkish and a move to the use of a Roman script undoubtedly helped improve literacy rates dramatically, one must realize that Ataturk had other agendas at the same time arising from his totalitarian programme of secularization. By virtually outlawing the use of Arabic script he was also able to ensure access to older religious -- especially Sufi -- literature became much more difficult and thus was able restrict the transmission of most religious teaching. This is corroborated by the fact that he also made all Sufi meeting places, the use of religious titles like Sheikh, the "sema" ritual of the Mevlevis ete etc illegal. His covert aim can be seen as little less that the outright elimination of Islam from most areas of life. It is only in reecent years that Sufi literature has begun to be easily available in romanized Turkish. A similar idea seems to lie in part behind the Communist Chinese simplification of the Chinese script, the reduction of current characters and the several attempts to replace the traditional script with Pin-yin romanization. If people cannot read their classics, then their minds will not be "polluted" by the ideas contained therein. Imagine what the level of religious understanding and knoweldge would be in India now of all the religious and philosophical classics if the British, for example, had outlawed devanagari and other traditional scripts in favour of total romanization ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 4 14:52:46 2001 From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 20:22:46 +0530 Subject: Available Epics on CD Message-ID: <161227067047.23782.10972597117347066716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Critical Text of the Mahabharata has been made available on CD jointly by the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute and Spectrum Business Support Limited, Pune recently. Please contact any of them for obtaining the same -Shreenand (shreenandbapat at hotmail.com) >From: Tobias Grote-Beverborg >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Epics on CD >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:02:41 +0100 > >Dear Listmembers, >after being offline for some time I would like to obtain information >about wether these texts are available on CD in the US: > >mahAbhArata >rAmAyaNa >zakuntalA > >Texts should be in Sanskrit and english translation plus a search >function. If possible let me know vendors and prices. >Any help is mostly appreciated. >Regards >-- >Tobias Grote-Beverborg >********************** >D?rener Str. 272 >D-50935 K?ln >fon: 0221.3465777 >mobil: 0177.6848202 >fax: 0177.99.6848202 >email: grotebev at uni-koeln.de _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Feb 4 21:13:25 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 21:13:25 +0000 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067061.23782.4331243958876168916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the translations you quote, the descriptions would seem to apply quite well to the type of garments seen on female figures of all kinds (not just the musicians) in the scuptures of Amaravati, Sa?ci etc. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK N Ganesan writes: >Yes, perhaps diaphanous garments. Usually the viRaliyar, dancing girls >descriptions will include words like , " nuN izai" (=thin yarn). >"izai" has another meaning which is "strings".... > >Since 'alkul' and 'mulai' are employed, the scholar >Prof. J. V. Chelliah wrote his logical conclusion: >>"The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise >>her whole body could not have been described." >>(J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55) From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Sun Feb 4 21:23:18 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 21:23:18 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067065.23782.5403297800980663023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Stephen Hodge's comment : Imagine what the level of religious understanding and knoweldge would be in India now of all the religious and philosophical classics if the British, for example, had outlawed devanagari and other traditional scripts in favour of total romanization ! The knowledge of the classics would be much higher, because a ban on devanagari and traditional scripts would have triggered a revolt besides which 1857 would have seemed tame, and the British would have been thrown out of India in short order, and anglicization would be much less. The British were by policy very careful not to step on these kinds of toes. Re : script -- Mahatma Gandhi was in favor of everyone learning the Urdu script, learned it himself, and would have probably been in favor of Rohan Oberoi's solution. When Lord Mountbatten had Jinnah and Gandhi sign a statement calling on people to refrain from violence, Gandhi signed in Devanagari, Urdu and Roman. -Arun Gupta From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 4 22:04:58 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 01 22:04:58 +0000 Subject: Goddess Ellammaa Message-ID: <161227067067.23782.8651743106675311397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >bumpkin >breakage (with kunkum paste mimicking blood) I think it is a pumpkin that gets broken and smeared with kumkum. I don't think anybody bumps off a country bumpkin in lieu of a goat or fowl. :-)) Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 5 00:01:42 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 00:01:42 +0000 Subject: viRaliyar (Musicians in the Near East) Message-ID: <161227067069.23782.12762237156398846975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On devadasis and the Sangam Tamil relations, refer to Saskia Kersenboom-Story's Utrecht PhD thesis under the direction of K. Zvelebil. Zvelebil has analysed the Nature of Sacred power inherent in women in "The nature of Sacred power", Acta Orientalia, 40 (1980), p. 157-192. Kersenboom develops a theory of Devadasi institution as Converter systems of Uncontrolled/Inauspicious power into Controlled/Auspicious energy through the means of dance and music. S.C. Kersenboom-Story, "ViRali - Possible sources of the Devadasi tradition in the Tamil bardic period", J. of Tamil studies, No. 19, June 1981, p. 19-41. In the recent reprint of his book as an OUP paperback edition, Hart has a similar theory to Zvelebil as well. The book-title is The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their mileau and their Sanskrit counterparts, 1999 (First edition: 1975). Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Mon Feb 5 02:43:16 2001 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 03:43:16 +0100 Subject: fonts Message-ID: <161227067073.23782.13184279153894195006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie J Roebuck wrote: >I'm still looking for a really good version of Devanagari for Mac! Devanagari fonts are included with Mac OS 8.5 and later. In Mac OS 8.5 or 8.6, install "Multilingual Internet Access". In Mac OS 9, install "Language Kits". The 'Language Kit' software is not installed by default (Easy Install), it needs a Custom Install. You should pretend to do an OS install and select 'Custom install' or 'Customize', then select 'Language Kits'. Further customize by selecting the languages you want to install. For Devanagri you need to have the WorldScript-I extension in the Extensions folder inside the System folder (it should be installed automatically when you install Devanagari, or Gurmukhi). Easy, straightforward phonetic input is provided by the 'Devanagari-QWERTY' keyboard (likewise installed automatically). Text editors/word processors are vary in suitability for editing Devanagari, some have a rendering problem when reordering glyphs. SimpleText and several other editors will do fine. You can easily convert your Mac-Devanagari text to Unicode/UTF-8 using the free character set conversion utility "Cyclone" by Tomasz Kukielka. (Europe) (USA) HTH, Jaap -- From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Feb 5 00:46:54 2001 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 06:16:54 +0530 Subject: Goddess Ellammaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067071.23782.8312271479380990375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:04 PM 2/4/01 +0000, you wrote: >>bumpkin >>breakage (with kunkum paste mimicking blood) > >I think it is a pumpkin that gets broken and smeared with kumkum. >I don't think anybody bumps off a country bumpkin in lieu of a >goat or fowl. :-)) Sorry for the typo irAma.ki >Vidyasankar > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Mon Feb 5 11:54:46 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 06:54:46 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <005301c08ec9$40aca1c0$c195883e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227067085.23782.9921145818705281054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge has written as follows: >While it is true that Arabic script is particularly unsuited for >writing Turkish and a move to the use of a Roman script undoubtedly >helped improve literacy rates dramatically, one must realize that >Ataturk had other agendas at the same time arising from his >totalitarian programme of secularization. So what? Did you want him to be single item in his agenda? I think most of his reforms have been admirable and have brought Turkey to come out of its obscurantism of the medieval age after WWI. It is the only muslim country which still has legal separation between the church and state. >By virtually outlawing the use of Arabic script he was also able to >ensure access to older religious -- especially Sufi -- literature >became much more difficult and thus was able restrict the transmission >of most religious teaching. This is corroborated by the fact that he >also made all Sufi meeting places, the use of religious titles like >Sheikh, the "sema" ritual of the Mevlevis ete etc illegal. His covert >aim can be seen as little less that the outright elimination of Islam >from most areas of life. It is only in reecent years that Sufi >literature has begun to be easily available in romanized Turkish. There was no ban on translating sufi or any literature but you should remember that after WWI Turkey had to undergo very severe economic depression from which it has not yet recovered and people had other priorities than reading sufi poems. >A similar idea seems to lie in part behind the Communist Chinese >simplification of the Chinese script, the reduction of current >characters and the several attempts to replace the traditional script >with Pin-yin romanization. If people cannot read their classics, then >their minds will not be "polluted" by the ideas contained therein. New ideas always try to replace the old ones regardless of the script in which they are written. China has come a long way without giving up its script and communist philosophy while India with Nehruvian dictatorship and dynasty has not fared any better. > >Imagine what the level of religious understanding and knoweldge would >be in India now of all the religious and philosophical classics if the >British, for example, had outlawed devanagari and other traditional >scripts in favour of total romanization ! As a matter of fact they did make English mandatory in schools and did everything to degrade Devnagri script by preferring Urdu script in their courts so that there was little incentive to study Devnagri script. It was only Arya Samaja and Gandhi who hailed from non-Devnagri regions of India who kept the interest in Hindi written in Devnagri script alive. BTW, in British army Hindi was actually written in Roman script and soldiers were required to learn only one script. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Hands that help are far better than Lips that Pray. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Mon Feb 5 08:28:28 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 08:28:28 +0000 Subject: fonts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067077.23782.3941927855576082328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Arun Gupta and Jaap Pranger for their useful advice on Devanagari fonts. Part of the problem seems to be the rather elderly Mac I'm using. Yet another incentive to upgrade! Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From pf at CIX.CO.UK Mon Feb 5 09:55:00 2001 From: pf at CIX.CO.UK (=?utf-8?Q?Fl=C3=BCgel?=) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 09:55:00 +0000 Subject: == No Subject == In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067080.23782.6693767980638633181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Census of India 1991. Peter From fsanders at TISCALINET.IT Mon Feb 5 11:26:39 2001 From: fsanders at TISCALINET.IT (Fabian Sanders) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 12:26:39 +0100 Subject: suspend membership Message-ID: <161227067082.23782.14316044816195974827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, please suspend my membership (fsanders at tiscalinet.it) Thanks and regards Fabian Sanders From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 5 18:14:02 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 13:14:02 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067099.23782.589192551906764670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I heard of a rAmAyaNa in Hindustani that spoke of khaleefa dazarath, vazIr vaSiSTh, sultAn rAm, begum sIta etc. Any other interesting works known? Best Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mlbd at VSNL.COM Mon Feb 5 07:58:01 2001 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 13:28:01 +0530 Subject: Vedic Sculpture in Naples Message-ID: <161227067075.23782.3905735288955775533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Valerie J Roebuck, Kindly refer your mail written to Indology list on 2nd Feb. referring MLBD on account of the above subject. Please let us know the confusion you are refering to so that if it is our fault we may rectify or else give you clarification. Sincerely, Rajeev Jain ================ "A Very Happy New-Year To You" -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Mon Feb 5 14:12:44 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 14:12:44 +0000 Subject: Vedic Sculpture in Naples In-Reply-To: <012201c08f4a$272d3580$ed8fc3cb@ravi> Message-ID: <161227067089.23782.11590957774892235424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Jain Several of us list members were puzzled by an item on p. 9 of the January 2001 MLBD newsletter. A description of an exhibition of the "secret collection" of the National Archaeological Museum, Naples, is captioned "Vedic Sculpture in Ancient Italy". Since the material in this collection is predominantly Roman, we wondered how the misunderstanding arose. We wondered whether someone had seen the description of "sexual activity involving gods and goddesses, satyrs, nymphs and pygmies" and jumped to the conclusion that it must be Indian! But this still does not explain why it was called "Vedic". Yours sincerely Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK >Kindly refer your mail written to Indology list on 2nd Feb. referring >MLBD on account of the above subject. Please let us know the confusion >you are refering to so that if it is our fault we may rectify or else >give you clarification. Sincerely, Rajeev Jain From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Feb 5 13:04:58 2001 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 15:04:58 +0200 Subject: R: Vedic sculpture in Naples? Message-ID: <161227067087.23782.6488583170298041845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Katharina Kupfer wrote: > > The collection of the Museum in Naples contain at least 1 figurine of > the godess Lakshmi, what has been found 1935 in Pompej (Insula I, Casa > della Statuetta Indiana, #149425). Maybe they have one or > two more? > The so-called LakSmI (rather a yakSI) is a well known piece often discussed by art historians since it was found in the 1930s in the excavations of the above-mentioned house in Pompei by A. Maiuri. In the 1970s the late Elisabeth During Caspers showed that it had originally been one of the legs of an ornamental table. Myself, I pointed out in South Asian Archaeology 1995 that such tables were actually mentioned in several Greek and Latin sources. There are two similar pieces found in Maharashtra. However, this statuette, though part of the Museum collections in Naples, does not belong to that particular collection, which is a special collection of erotic art (Graeco-Roman), formerly not shown to public. I have never heard that there should be anything Indian in it. Regards Klaus -- Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D. Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography Institute of Asian and African Studies PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094 From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Mon Feb 5 16:32:29 2001 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 17:32:29 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227067091.23782.730998836861461050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour ou bonsoir, 1991 Census of India : Jains : 3,352,706 = 0.40% Voici l'adresse du "Census of India" (nouveau recensement annonce pour 2001) : http://www.censusindia.net/ adresse a laquelle vous pouvez vous adressez directement. En fait environ 5 millions d'adherents selon le site suivant : http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Jainism Pierre Amiel, traducteur de "Lord Mahavira" de Bool Chand et Sagarmal Jain, donne dans son avant-propos date de decembre 1997 le chiffre de "5 millions environ en Inde et quelques centaines de milliers dans le reste du monde", ce qui corrobore les chiffres annonces sur le site ci-dessus. Hope this help. Tout de bon Francois At 14:53 04.02.2001 -0000, you wrote: >Dear Experts, >I am writing an encyclopedia article on Jainism and need to provide the >population figure for Jains living in India. I only know of the Census of >India from ca. 1982 which I believe gives the number of ca. 3 mio. Could >anyone enlighten me where I can find more recent data on the Jain >populuation. >With many thanks, A.v.Rospatt >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > -------------------------------------------- Francois Obrist Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire (BCU) Section de langues et civilisations orientales CH-1015 Lausanne email: Francois.Obrist at bcu.unil.ch tel. : +41 21 692 4836 Fax : +41 21 692 4845 : From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Feb 5 17:43:54 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 17:43:54 +0000 Subject: E-mail of Ian Whicher Message-ID: <161227067093.23782.492965739135905855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists! I am looking for e-mail of Dr. Ian Whicher, the author of "Integrity of Yoga Darsana". Could someone help me? Regards, Dmitri. From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Mon Feb 5 18:04:13 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 18:04:13 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067095.23782.5677270308924119401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Markandey Katju in "A language trapped in identity crisis" http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2000-weekly/tapest-24-08-2000/#2 correctly mentions that Urdu is a native Indian language. He also correctly points out that 70 per cent words in Urdu are from Sanskrit. While many have attempted to point out the Urdu is not the language of Muslims only, no one has bothered to point out Hindi is not the language of Hindus only. A large number of Hindi authors have been Muslim, both modern as well as in the early periods. Their language is as Sanskritized as that of the Hindu authors. It is sad that only Hindus are expected to read Kabir, Rahim, Jayasi and many others. Will people of Pakistan ever know that "Hindi" is as much (if not more) a part of their heritage as Urdu? Yashwant From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 5 18:50:33 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 18:50:33 +0000 Subject: vezyA 'courtesan' Message-ID: <161227067101.23782.8150445078482776893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists, How is the name, vezyA 'courtesan' explained in terms of origins? It does not appear to be IE since it is attested only from the times of Mahabharata epic onwards. Take a look at the tamil verb, vEy- vEy-tal 1. to put on, as a garland; to wear, as crown; 3. to surround; 4. to set, as gems; 5. to be fitted with; 6. to bore; to open, blossom In ancient Tamil sangam literature, the dancing women who convert all inauspicious things into auspiciousness are given golden garlands and flowers regularly. To ward off the evil eye and increase auspiciousness, the brides, grooms and kings are tied with a golden plate (called bhAsinam 'bright head-band'). Since casting off the evil eye and causing auspiciousness to increase by their august presence is the prescribed duty (for eg., in the saiva agamas) of the devadasi, is the name vezyA related to vEy- (> vEs- > vEz-) 'to wear lustrous ornaments'. Regards, N. Ganesan Reference: ----------- S.C. Kersenboom-Story, "ViRali - Possible sources of the Devadasi tradition in the Tamil bardic period", J. of Tamil studies, No. 19, June 1981, p. 19-41. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Feb 5 21:42:36 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 21:42:36 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067103.23782.15238458296164361460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I have just completed a new interpretation of Samaadhi Paada of YS. The interpretation is radically different from established tradition and is the result of application of cognitive psychology and generative semantics to the MS. I hope it will be of interest to people interested in: - interpretation of Sanskrit MSS or - etimology of Sanskrit words or - semantics or - cognitive psychology perspective on yoga. The text of the interpretation is at http://www.theasis.net/ Best regards, Dmitri. From dr at SARASVATIRIVER.COM Mon Feb 5 18:09:53 2001 From: dr at SARASVATIRIVER.COM (Dilip Rajgor) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 01 23:39:53 +0530 Subject: suspend membership Message-ID: <161227067097.23782.6259834696306525388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, Please suspend my membership Thanks and regards Dilip Rajgor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fabian Sanders" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 4:56 PM Subject: suspend membership > Dear list, > please suspend my membership (fsanders at tiscalinet.it) > Thanks and regards > Fabian Sanders > From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 6 00:43:44 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 00:43:44 +0000 Subject: --- (Population figures) Message-ID: <161227067105.23782.17657752701557177446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> wrote: >1991 Census of India : > >Jains : 3,352,706 = 0.40% I think that should be a good estimate of the Jain population in India, (although I am aware of some scholars questioning the accuracy of the count). The Jain growth rate had dropped quite significantly during 1981-91 (from 2.31% in prior decade) to 0.46%. It is likely that the 2001 population is not much higher. The same should be true for other affluent, educated communites in India that are very urban. >En fait environ 5 millions d'adherents selon le site suivant : >http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Jainism I'm sure that the table "Major Branches of Jainism" is quite inaccurate. In 1914 AD, a private enumeration (Bharatavarshiya Digambara Jain Directory, a 7 year effort) of Digambaras gave the number 450,584. Assuming an undercount of about 10-15%, they were about 41-43% of the Jain population. I have a copy. There is a fairly reliable way for estimating the number of Jains in North America. A look at the past Jain Directories of North America suggests that a certain fraction of all Jains have the last name ?Jain?. Based on the most recent update of the Directory, this fraction is 7.6%. If we can count all those with last name Jain, we can get an estimate of the Jain population. a. The 1990 USA census reports that there were 815,447 Indians and 0.6% (i.e. about 4893) had the last name Jain. This would give about 64,400 Jains in 1990. b. Since 1990, the number of Indians and the number of Jains has gone up significantly. All individuals with a listed phone number (the information is about a year old) can be looked up on some of the web directories. In 1999, I found 2039 families/individuals with last name "Jain" listed. Since there are about 3.12 members per family, that gives 85,600 Jains in USA in 1999. I believe this is a fairly accurate estimate; the margin of error should not be more than a few percent. I would add at least another 10-15% to the 1999 estimate to account for recent arrival of software professionals in North America. Yashwant From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 6 01:49:07 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 01:49:07 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067109.23782.1370690707379785449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> wrote: >[...] in pre-Pallava times, it was "indigenous priests" in >contradistinction to Brahmins were the mainstay of priesthood. [...] >So if Vaiyapuri Pillai is to be belived, it looks like brahmins had become >well established by CT time. Any comments? Kamil Zvelebil in "Companion Studies to The History of Tamil Literature", 1992, p. 29: "Finally, there was the level representing the elite strata: the rulers, their minstrels and bards, priesthood, administrative apparatus, warriors. Fundamentally, they were closely connected with the land-owning ?middle? section of the national culture. ?Sanskritization? and ?Brahminization? of the ruling elite must have been rather thin, not at all very strong at that period; however, even our earliest textual evidence shows that it was never quite absent, although there was, too, a strong influence of Jainism/Buddhism." George L. Hart begins his "Woman and the Sacred in Ancient Tamilnad", JAS, XXXII, 2 with the statement: "We possess in ancient Tamil a large body poetry which antedates for all intents and purposes the incursion of Sanskrit culture into Tamilnad." Best wishes, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Feb 6 01:22:01 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 02:22:01 +0100 Subject: E-mail of Ian Whicher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067107.23782.18031181093704862790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Mo, 05 Feb 2001 schrieb Dmitri: > Dear Indologists! > > I am looking for e-mail of Dr. Ian Whicher, the author of > "Integrity of Yoga Darsana". Ian Whicher -- Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Feb 6 10:21:01 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 10:21:01 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067113.23782.13128486981218775651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:49:07 +0000, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > wrote: >>[...] in pre-Pallava times, it was "indigenous priests" in >>contradistinction to Brahmins were the mainstay of priesthood. >[...] >>So if Vaiyapuri Pillai is to be belived, it looks like brahmins had become >>well established by CT time. Any comments? > >Kamil Zvelebil in "Companion Studies to The History of >Tamil Literature", 1992, p. 29: >"Finally, there was the level representing the elite strata: the >rulers, their minstrels and bards, priesthood, administrative >apparatus, warriors. Fundamentally, they were closely connected >with the land-owning ?middle? section of the national culture. >?Sanskritization? and ?Brahminization? of the ruling elite must >have been rather thin, not at all very strong at that period; >however, even our earliest textual evidence shows that it was >never quite absent, although there was, too, a strong influence >of Jainism/Buddhism." > >George L. Hart begins his "Woman and the Sacred in Ancient >Tamilnad", JAS, XXXII, 2 with the statement: >"We possess in ancient Tamil a large body poetry which antedates >for all intents and purposes the incursion of Sanskrit culture >into Tamilnad." > >Best wishes, >V. Iyer To some extent, the statements of these kind does not tell us much. For every statement of this kind, so many counter examples can be brought which can render any statemnent meaningless. For example, if you take the statement "Tamil ... poetry...antedates.. Sanskrit culture", we know from the earliest days Indra and Varuna were worshipped as 'Thinai' gods. Indra is a quintessentially vedic aryan god and so is Varuna. Even Thirumal is Vishnu . Even at popular level, vedic deities held sway Vaiyapuri Pillai, without bringing in the words "sanskrtization" and "brahminization" has brought in enough evidence to show that the change was not that radical from Sangam to Pallavan times as suggested by Dr.Ganesan. Ganesan's words like 'state sponsorship' gives an impresion a state on the model of model western theories, while the social fact may only be powerful land owners . From ppsmb at BGL.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 6 05:39:20 2001 From: ppsmb at BGL.VSNL.NET.IN (ppsmb) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 11:09:20 +0530 Subject: suspend membership Message-ID: <161227067111.23782.12301655229381810754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list, please suspend my membership ( ppsmb at bgl.vsnl.net.in ). Thanks and regards, srivara. I would like to have the daily digest if it is available. srivara. From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Tue Feb 6 20:13:18 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 12:13:18 -0800 Subject: More on gotras Message-ID: <161227067119.23782.9460692213272181225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am ignorant of this subject and hesitate to comment. However, there is in the Indology archives a series of messages concerning potters, Brahmins and Rishis. The theory seems to be that indigenous potters were treated as Brahmins and priests in very early times. Question: could it be that those who trace their ancestry to a pot are recording in that manner their early status as potters, hence their origin as Brahmins? Do a search for "brahmin and pot" and check the box for substring search. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology.html or ignore :-) David From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Tue Feb 6 20:17:20 2001 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 12:17:20 -0800 Subject: More on gotras Message-ID: <161227067122.23782.6321115314794532908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please disregard previous message. I intended it for the IndianCivilization list. David From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 6 15:51:11 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 15:51:11 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067117.23782.15281238630634666060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V. Vijayaraghavan wrote: >To some extent, the statements of these kind does not tell us much. For >every statement of this kind, so many counter examples can be brought >which can render any statemnent meaningless. The summary statements by scholars like Hart and Zvelebil are valid for anyone studying sangam poetry thouroughly. Not many counterexamples can be given to make the scholars' summaries invalid. >For example, if you take the statement "Tamil .. poetry...antedates.. >Sanskrit culture", we know from the earliest >days Indra and Varuna were worshipped as 'Thinai' gods. Indra is >a quintessentially vedic aryan god and so is Varuna. Even Thirumal is >Vishnu . Even at popular level, vedic deities held sway. The ascription of Gods like Indra and VaruNa to tiNai landscapes seem to emanate from later layers of TolkAppiyam. For example, Tol. talks of puLLi, a "negative alphabet" (= -a), an invention that led to the non-samyuktaaksharam orthography of Tamil. However, the occurence of puLLi is later than the earliest Tamil inscriptions. The Sanskrit culture in sangam texts cannot be gotten from Tolkappiyam because Tol. has layers that are much later than sangam times. Sangam texts themselves give us descriptions of local priests whose rituals were to increase auspiciousness. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 6 12:37:37 2001 From: samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM (sthanesvar timalsina) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 18:22:37 +0545 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227067115.23782.12774102284599489539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 6 23:52:28 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 18:52:28 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067123.23782.16875286015020120450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Dmitri One quick question please. I.3 tadAdraSTuHsvarUpe~vasthAnaM which was split as tadA draSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM I like to split it as tadA adraSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM As everything perceived is a transformation (of what is already known such as agni or vAc), one has to transcend what is perceived; because what is not perceived alone is what stands apart. In many cases (such as above), even a chanting of the sUtra can locate a possible error. "draSTuHsvarUpe" seems to contain some apazruti, as it needs too much labor on a weaker ground. "adraSTuHsvarUpe" sounds perfect. Or did I misread the whole thing? Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 7 00:10:41 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 19:10:41 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067126.23782.18063192087793839038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like Shri Bhadraiah to explain the notion of apazruti in reading the rule as draSTuHsvarUpe? With sandhi in the sense of unbroken utterance, the rule must, in any case, read: tadAdraSTuHsvarUpe~vasthAnaM. Splitting it one way or the other, as far as I can see, is a question of interpretation, not of pronunciation. Consider the debates over the Bhagavad-giitaa line: naasato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate sata.h. There are commentaries, such as that one Madhva, which read this line as: naasata.h vidyate abhaava.h, naabhava.h vidyate asata.h. Whether one accepts this interpretation or not, the zruti "sounding" of the sandhied line remains the same. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > >From: Dmitri > > One quick question please. > > I.3 tadAdraSTuHsvarUpe~vasthAnaM which was split as > > tadA draSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM > > I like to split it as > > tadA adraSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM > > As everything perceived is a transformation (of what is already known such > as agni or vAc), one has to transcend what is perceived; because what is not > perceived alone is what stands apart. > > In many cases (such as above), even a chanting of the sUtra can locate a > possible error. "draSTuHsvarUpe" seems to contain some apazruti, as it needs > too much labor on a weaker ground. "adraSTuHsvarUpe" sounds perfect. > > Or did I misread the whole thing? > > Regards > Bhadraiah > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 02:05:00 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 21:05:00 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067129.23782.16749631331699864171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bhadraiah: Could you give us some more verses so that we can get the context a little better. Thanks, Lynken Ghose >From: Bhadraiah Mallampalli >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:52:28 -0500 > >>From: Dmitri > >One quick question please. > >I.3 tadAdraSTuHsvarUpe~vasthAnaM which was split as > >tadA draSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM > >I like to split it as > >tadA adraSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM > >As everything perceived is a transformation (of what is already known such >as agni or vAc), one has to transcend what is perceived; because what is >not >perceived alone is what stands apart. > >In many cases (such as above), even a chanting of the sUtra can locate a >possible error. "draSTuHsvarUpe" seems to contain some apazruti, as it >needs >too much labor on a weaker ground. "adraSTuHsvarUpe" sounds perfect. > >Or did I misread the whole thing? > >Regards >Bhadraiah >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 7 07:35:25 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 01 23:35:25 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?cakravartin=EF=BF=BDs_cremation?= Message-ID: <161227067133.23782.3766434105582910997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In _Mahaparinibbana Sutta_, Ananda, Gautama?s cousin and personal attendant, inquires of his guru concerning how to cremate the body of a Tathaagata (Buddha?). Gautama responds saying that it ought to be handled just as with the body of a deceased cakravartin (universal ruler), that is, ?It is first wrapped round with new linen, and then with teased cotton wool; up to five hundred layers of linen and five hundred layers of cotton wool. When that is done, the body is placed in an iron oil vessel, which is enclosed in another iron vessel. Then the body is burned on a funeral pyre built of all kinds of perfumed woods.? I am curious as to the effect this recipe would have on the body. Having next to no knowledge of Vedic crematory science, I get the impression that this is more like baking than reducing the body to ashes. Assuming the body, doubly enclosed in iron skillets, would not be directly touched by flames, would not the abundant mummy wraps function to absorb all the liquid and fat that the cadaver would exude when brought to extreme temperatures? VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 01:47:22 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 01:47:22 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit in India Message-ID: <161227067128.23782.12720292027642983865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If at all any justification is necessary for paying attention to Sanskrit in Indian higher education, read - http://www.timesofindia.com/070201/07mlkn8.htm, for what is happening at the University of Lucknow. Indians are happy to be fighting about Urdu vs. Hindi, when productive work needs to be done. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Wed Feb 7 03:40:52 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY Dmitri) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 03:40:52 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067131.23782.18135888748973837764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Bhadraiah, It is possible to split I.3 as tadA adraSTuH svarUpe avasthAnaM 1 2 3 4 In this case it might be translated as In that case that which has no impression 1 2 [has] in its own form standing apart 3 4 Or, paraphrased, as In that case unobservable relaxes in its natural form. It makes sense. Thus, on subliminal level I.3 might express equivalence: impressions stand apart from distorting influences in their natural from <=> unobservable relaxes in its natural form What is that unobservable? Overall, I tried to avoid references to such notions, but they might be in YS anyway. >In many cases (such as above), even a chanting of the sUtra can locate a >possible error. I didn't make any assumptions about YS having any metre or possessing an ease of chanting. Are there any reasons to make such assumptions? >"draSTuHsvarUpe" seems to contain some apazruti, as it needs >too much labor on a weaker ground. "adraSTuHsvarUpe" sounds perfect. What is apazruti? What is "weaker ground"? Thanks for the comment Bhadraiah. Best regards, Dmitri. From mnbhat at INDIA.COM Wed Feb 7 11:44:27 2001 From: mnbhat at INDIA.COM (Mahabaleshwar Bhat) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 06:44:27 -0500 Subject: Shankara... Message-ID: <161227067137.23782.10783615688533059494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could someone tell me the meaning of the Sanskrit words "Shankara" (as in Shakaracharya) and "Vivek" (as in Vivekananda) please? regards ------------------------------------ FREE Personalized Email at India.com Sign up at http://mail.india.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 7 16:32:39 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 08:32:39 -0800 Subject: SV: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067151.23782.13159050839981909943.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See Vaiyapuri Pillai's dating of TolkAppiyam which is substantially later than Sangam poetry: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9704&L=indology&P=R9079 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9807&L=indology&P=R3046 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9807&L=indology&P=R3550 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9807&L=indology&P=R11572 Prof. Jean-Luc Chevillard quoted G. Hart regarding the problems of dating different TolkAppiyam grammars: " I will today quote prof. George L. Hart III's viewpoint, as it appears on page 10 in his 1975 book (PAT): "The poems of Ancient Tamil, their milieu and their Sanskrit counterpart" University of California Press, ISBN 0-520-02672-1 "The _Tolkaappiyam_, a treatise on grammar and poetic convention, is generally said to have been written even before the anthologies. This claim, if true, would make that work of great importance in this investigation. However, Mahadevan has shown that the writing system described by the _Tolkaappiyam_, and specifically the part that calls for putting a dot (_puLLi_) over a letter to indicate that it is not followed by the vowel _a_ (as a _virAma_ in Sanskrit), was not used until several centuries after the period of the anthologies. In other words, parts of the _Tolkaappiyam_ are quite late, though some parts may be as early as has been generally claimed. Unfortunately, since it is quite impossible to separate the early parts of the _Tolkaappiyam_ from the later parts, that work cannot be relied upon for historical data on the period of the anthologies" (PAT, p.10)" - JLC on 16 Jul 98 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 7 14:58:17 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 09:58:17 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067147.23782.228586085841254638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just to correct my statement: There are commentaries, such as that one Madhva, which read this line as: naasata.h vidyate abhaava.h, naabhava.h vidyate sata.h. Madhva says: asata.h kaara.nasya sato brahma.naz caabhaavo na vidyate. (BG 2.16). Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > I would like Shri Bhadraiah to explain the notion of apazruti in reading > the rule as draSTuHsvarUpe? With sandhi in the sense of unbroken > utterance, the rule must, in any case, read: tadAdraSTuHsvarUpe~vasthAnaM. > Splitting it one way or the other, as far as I can see, is a question of > interpretation, not of pronunciation. Consider the debates over the > Bhagavad-giitaa line: naasato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate sata.h. > There are commentaries, such as that one Madhva, which read this line as: > naasata.h vidyate abhaava.h, naabhava.h vidyate asata.h. Whether one > accepts this interpretation or not, the zruti "sounding" of the sandhied > line remains the same. Best, > Madhav Deshpande > > On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > > > >From: Dmitri > > > > One quick question please. > > > > I.3 tadAdraSTuHsvarUpe~vasthAnaM which was split as > > > > tadA draSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM > > > > I like to split it as > > > > tadA adraSTuHsvarUpe avasthAnaM > > > > As everything perceived is a transformation (of what is already known such > > as agni or vAc), one has to transcend what is perceived; because what is not > > perceived alone is what stands apart. > > > > In many cases (such as above), even a chanting of the sUtra can locate a > > possible error. "draSTuHsvarUpe" seems to contain some apazruti, as it needs > > too much labor on a weaker ground. "adraSTuHsvarUpe" sounds perfect. > > > > Or did I misread the whole thing? > > > > Regards > > Bhadraiah > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Feb 7 10:57:47 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 10:57:47 +0000 Subject: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067135.23782.244375165233868671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:51:11 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: > >The ascription of Gods like Indra and VaruNa to tiNai landscapes >seem to emanate from later layers of TolkAppiyam > >The Sanskrit culture in sangam texts cannot be gotten >from Tolkappiyam because Tol. has layers that are much later >than sangam times. Then how do you place which layer i.e. the date a particular line of Thol. belongs to? If your theory is correct, then Thol. was constantly interfered with and lines added probabaly till 7th century and Thol. as we know is a late product So when does the worship of Indra and Varuna with Indra vizha and other things begin in old Tamilnadu? From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 7 11:58:04 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 11:58:04 +0000 Subject: kumbha melas (fwd) Message-ID: <161227067140.23782.14288993907637318379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:21:38 -0800 (PST) From: claudia wright Subject: kumbha melas [...] I'm in India recovering from the Mahakumbh and have been looking at the archive. I see there have been a couple of vague mails about dates and places of the Kumbh Melas. The sequence of the last 12 years, a full Kumbh cycle, was as follows: Jan 1989 Prayag Mahakumbh Nov 1991 Nasik Kumbh Mela Mar 1992 Hardwar Ardh Kumbh Mela Apr 1992 Ujjain Simhasth Mela Jan 1995 Prayag Ardh Kumbh Mela Mar 1998 Hardwar Kumbh Mela Jan 2001 Prayag Mahakumbh I'm afraid I can't fill you in on the astrological significances 'though..... Yours, James Mallinson From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 17:29:17 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 12:29:17 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067156.23782.17137105438601458910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the kind comments. I do not have definitive answers, but I can offer some discussion. The construction "tadA draSTuHsvarUpe" is a nightmare from a poet's point of view. Some times my father struggles for days for right words in cases like these. He writes Telugu poetry, and occasionally Sanskrit. Poetry in Telugu and to some extent classical Sanskrit is somewhat easy because they have strict rules about guru and laghu due to limited chandas. sUtrAs and vedic metres may not have rigid rules, but this is only a temporary relief. There are more complex and subtle rules like balam and sAma which dictate the outcome. I am only writing from my own experience and what I heard when my father was working with his poetry. I faintly remember there is some restriction on savarNa dIrgha sandhi whose first part has a light dIrghA ending and second part starting with a hrasva compound (like 'dr') having 'r'. I may be wrong. Just to play with meaningless words, 'tadhA draSTu' or 'tadAdrAStu' may provide some balam without any meaning or context or metre. The root cause why oral tradition is preferred to written tradition is because what is written can go wrong. I am curious what the oral tradition says about this sUtra. While chanting, "tadA" leaves at a different place and "draSTu" picks up somewhere else. If I teach some one "tadA draSTuHsvarUpe" I have to provide extra initiative for draSTu by taking a gasp in between, which gives me a feeling I am telling a lie or hiding some facts. My teaching is just coming from my lips, not from my heart. I think this is what they call as sAma. Every part of the body and mind has to contribute to the verse "at appropriate time", not just the lips. The gap indicates some missing literature. The rules for the "appropriate time" depend on the yajna and that is a different story. Now considering the relation to earlier sUtra, first we do chitta vRtti nirodhaM. chitta vRtti is a process of deduction based on perceived cause effect relationships between various objects found. nirodham demands that that such activity must stop. When does it stop? Only when we realize that all these chains are transformations (gold to a gold-chain). What are transformations? It is change of viewer ship from one viewer to another (gold-viewer to gold-chain-viewer). Why do people change viewer ship from one to another? Why not use empathy and see things from our own as well as from all other's point of view? Once this is done, there will be no more chitta vRtti. So the first sUtra tells us to see from the point of "every" viewer in the universe. When you see from every viewer's point of view, there is no more "draSTu". Or alternatively there are infinite number of viewers and infinite number of views. We are back to Prof Ian Goddard's all or nothing argument. Now if there is one object(iti), I can refute it saying 'neti'. If there are infinite objects how to refute all of them? It is by using the letter 'a' which is the ultimate instrument of negation. So we have adraSTu. Please also note that mANDUkya says 'a' represents vizva which is the entire manifested universe (all). So in addition to the regular unseen/non-perceivable, adraSTu also means all-seeing (a-draSTu). Therefore insertion of 'a' has a double philosophical advantage. Also the letter 'a' comes from the stomach and fills all gaps in pronunciation. I need to study naasato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate sata.h. Best regards Bhadraiah http://homes.acmecity.com/friends/harmonica/301 http://www.egroups.com/group/VedicRitual _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 7 12:26:04 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 13:26:04 +0100 Subject: SV: Did IVC have low-intensity wars? Message-ID: <161227067149.23782.15811191462085026653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan [SMTP:vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK] skrev 7. februar 2001 11:58: > Then how do you place which layer i.e. the date a particular line of Thol. > belongs to? If your theory is correct, then Thol. was constantly interfered > with and lines added probabaly till 7th century and Thol. as we know is a > late product You are rasing an extremely interesting methodical problem in Indology. The fact is that from the earliest times, India's ("anonymous") literature has been much tampered with, a fact which is easy to see if you look at the different manuscripts for the various texts. (Check for instance the critical apparatus of the Mahabharata). Separating the different chronological layers of a text that has grown over centuries is extremely complicated. Comparing manuscripts is one way of doing it: which sections are always found, which are found only in some manuscripts? Sometimes, you can show that a text section is different linguistically from other sections, or you may get an idea about the relative age of sections by comparing mythological or narrative motives. But names of gods are indeed problematic. Sometimes, new names are simply inserted where an older name stood, which means that the text (section) itself may be old, but the name recent. Therefore, saying when gods like Indra and Varuna entered the Tol. requires very careful argumentation, to say the least. Although I am not a Tamil specialist, I don't think that you will get an entirely definitive answer! Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Feb 7 11:29:40 2001 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 13:29:40 +0200 Subject: vezyA 'courtesan' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067142.23782.15328263510915260721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 5 Feb 01, at 18:50, N. Ganesan wrote: > How is the name, vezyA 'courtesan' explained in terms of origins? > It does not appear to be IE since it is attested only from the > times of Mahabharata epic onwards. Skt. ve"syaa ``prostitute, courtesan" has to be connected with Skt. ve"sa ``house; brothel; prostitution" which is already attested in the Vaajasaneyi-Sa.mhitaa (Kaa.nva recension), in Manu, etc. (cf. the noun vi"s ``habitation, settlement" and the root vi"s, or ve"s ``enter, settle in", already .Rgvedic and of Indo-European origin). Best regards, Roland Steiner From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 21:39:38 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 16:39:38 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067168.23782.6168854220522706771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Sri Sundaresan, there is also an etymology of indra - "idam adarzamitI" in aitareya upaniSat. The variation "idam darzamitI" lacks the punch. Any comments if necessary. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 17:01:37 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 17:01:37 +0000 Subject: Basava Message-ID: <161227067154.23782.11010514922012045974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What does Basava mean in KannaDa language? Anything to do with light, brightness, etc.? Thanks for the info, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Feb 7 18:37:10 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 18:37:10 +0000 Subject: Shankara... In-Reply-To: <384299525.981546267244.JavaMail.root@web569-mc> Message-ID: <161227067158.23782.6421199290958532746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Sanskrit indeclinable s'am (used as both an adverb and a noun) denotes auspiciousness, health and well-being, and is particularly associated with the God S'iva, giving him his titles S'ankara ("well-making") and S'ambhu ("well-being"). The great philosopher was called after the God. Viveka means "discrimination", "discernment", from vi-vic-, to winnow (grain), to discriminate, to discern. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Mahabaleshwar Bhat writes: >Could someone tell me the meaning of the Sanskrit words "Shankara" (as in >Shakaracharya) and "Vivek" (as in Vivekananda) please? From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Feb 7 13:23:28 2001 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 18:53:28 +0530 Subject: kumbha melas (fwd) Message-ID: <161227067144.23782.10972571911487639409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Kumbh in the Kumbh mela is the zodiacal sign Aquarius. The periodicity of 12 years corresponds to the orbital period of the planet Jupiter. Rajesh Kochhar +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:35 PM Subject: kumbha melas (fwd) >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:21:38 -0800 (PST) >From: claudia wright > >Subject: kumbha melas > >[...] >I'm in India >recovering from the Mahakumbh and have been looking at >the archive. I see there have been a couple of vague >mails about dates and places of the Kumbh Melas. The >sequence of the last 12 years, a full Kumbh cycle, was >as follows: > >Jan 1989 Prayag Mahakumbh > >Nov 1991 Nasik Kumbh Mela > >Mar 1992 Hardwar Ardh Kumbh Mela > >Apr 1992 Ujjain Simhasth Mela > >Jan 1995 Prayag Ardh Kumbh Mela > >Mar 1998 Hardwar Kumbh Mela > >Jan 2001 Prayag Mahakumbh > >I'm afraid I can't fill you in on the astrological >significances 'though..... > >Yours, > >James Mallinson From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Feb 7 19:34:35 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 19:34:35 +0000 Subject: cakravartin's cremation Message-ID: <161227067165.23782.6912075494864432187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra wrote: > I get the impression that this is > more like baking than reducing the body to ashes. The probable result would be complete carbonization as with charcoal with some calcination. > Assuming the body, doubly enclosed in iron skillets, > would not be directly touched by flames, would not the > abundant mummy wraps function to absorb all the liquid > and fat that the cadaver would exude when brought to > extreme temperatures? There are several factors one should consider here. First it would depend, I would think, on whether the containers were hermetically sealed -- unlikely since the resulting pressures from the vaporization of fluids and fats would result in a explosion or at least a bursting of the seams of the containers. Allowing that they were sealed but not hermetically then the cremation would take place within the containers with reduced oxygen which results in carbonization -- that's how charcoal is made -- with some calcination depending on how long heat is applied and ta what temperature.. Another point is the external heat of the fire -- even if the body was not touched directly by the flames, they would possibly heat up the metal until it was red hot -- the result would not exactly be baking. Also, allowing that the containers are not sealed, this amount of heat would first liquify and then vaporize the fats and other liquids which would expand / run out and burn off. The wrappings you mention would also be carbonized. All this would seem to make it easier to retrieve substantial remains / relics. However it is questionable whether the Buddha was cremated in that manner since the traditional account of the allocation and distribution of the Buddha's remains seems to talk of handfuls of ashes although some substantial pieces of bone and teeth would have remained. In modern crematoria, whether gas, oil or electric, in the West, it takes about 45 mins to cremate the body and coffin but even then large pieces of bone are left over. These are then collected and put into a smaller retort / cylinder where they are subjected to 30 mins or so at a higher temperature to reduce them still further. There are still largish peices of bone left since the finishing touches are done with a large electric coffee grinder (yes, enjoy your next cup of coffee). Hope this helps but to be conclusive perhaps a practical experiment might be arranged using an animal carcase ;) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ghezziem at TIN.IT Wed Feb 7 19:48:04 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 19:48:04 +0000 Subject: R: vezyA 'courtesan' Message-ID: <161227067160.23782.7368967910728223638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Furthermore, dearest friends, I add that vesha "abode, brothel", from vish "to go into", has a curious quasi-synonym vAsa "abode, habitation", from vas "to abide in"; and the vAsakasajjA is the nAyikA "who is ready in her bed-chamber", or, in the mind of other alamkArasAstrins, "who has her dress (vAsa "garment" from vas "to wear") ready". From the first rhetorical treatises, the vAsakasAjja is openly described as very similar to a veshya, exactly because she is waiting a lover (not a husband!) in her vAsagrha ("bed chamber"), or has very beautiful clothes (vAsa). As far as we now, from the antiquity a woman who is waiting in an habitation is suspect to be a prostitute; it is very different in the western etymology of "prostitute", which comes from Latin pro-stat, "to put the foot outside (the house)" so that the customers can see her. This is only a curiosity! Yours Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Roland Steiner >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Re: vezyA 'courtesan' >Data: Mer, 7 feb 2001 11:29 > > On 5 Feb 01, at 18:50, N. Ganesan wrote: > >> How is the name, vezyA 'courtesan' explained in terms of origins? >> It does not appear to be IE since it is attested only from the >> times of Mahabharata epic onwards. > > Skt. ve"syaa ``prostitute, courtesan" has to be connected with > Skt. ve"sa ``house; brothel; prostitution" which is already attested > in the Vaajasaneyi-Sa.mhitaa (Kaa.nva recension), in Manu, etc. > (cf. the noun vi"s ``habitation, settlement" and the root vi"s, or > ve"s ``enter, settle in", already .Rgvedic and of Indo-European > origin). > > Best regards, > Roland Steiner From ghezziem at TIN.IT Wed Feb 7 19:50:46 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 19:50:46 +0000 Subject: R: vezyA 'courtesan' Message-ID: <161227067162.23782.5897465598559474678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Furthermore, dearest friends, I add that vesha "abode, brothel", from vish "to go into", has a curious quasi-synonym vAsa "abode, habitation", from vas "to abide in"; and the vAsakasajjA is the nAyikA "who is ready in her bed-chamber", or, in the mind of other alamkArasAstrins, "who has her dress (vAsa "garment" from vas "to wear") ready". From the first rhetorical treatises, the vAsakasAjja is openly described as very similar to a veshya, exactly because she is waiting a lover (not a husband!) in her vAsagrha ("bed chamber"), or has very beautiful clothes (vAsa). As far as we now, from the antiquity a woman who is waiting in an habitation is suspected to be a prostitute; it is very different in the western etymology of "prostitute", which comes from Latin pro-stat, "to put the foot outside (the house)" so that the customers can see her. This is only a curiosity! Yours Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Roland Steiner >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Re: vezyA 'courtesan' >Data: Mer, 7 feb 2001 11:29 > > On 5 Feb 01, at 18:50, N. Ganesan wrote: > >> How is the name, vezyA 'courtesan' explained in terms of origins? >> It does not appear to be IE since it is attested only from the >> times of Mahabharata epic onwards. > > Skt. ve"syaa ``prostitute, courtesan" has to be connected with > Skt. ve"sa ``house; brothel; prostitution" which is already attested > in the Vaajasaneyi-Sa.mhitaa (Kaa.nva recension), in Manu, etc. > (cf. the noun vi"s ``habitation, settlement" and the root vi"s, or > ve"s ``enter, settle in", already .Rgvedic and of Indo-European > origin). > > Best regards, > Roland Steiner From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 21:29:08 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 21:29:08 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067167.23782.16954351108388461926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: yogasuutra 1. 3 - tadaa dra.s.tu.h svaruupe 'vasthaanam I don't want to throw a spanner into the works generated by enthusiasm, but here goes. I see no problem with tadaa dra.s.tu.h that will be solved by making it read tadaa adra.s.tu.h - suutras don't have to conform to rules of poetic composition. As a general rule, one should be careful not to read too much philosophical meaning into highly speculative reconstructions of text. This is especially a problem when such reconstruction is being done without critical evaluations of manuscripts and without consulting established lines of commentaries. It is highly prejudicial, to read "unobservable" here, and to say that the reading has to be adra.s.taa. The Sanskrit terms for unobservable or unobserved would be ad.rzya or ad.r.s.ta, not adra.s.taa. It is perfectly consistent in the Yoga school for the correct reading to be dra.s.taa. There is a good clue in the suutras themselves. See dra.s.taa d.rzi-maatra.h zuddho 'pi pratyayaanupazya.h, tadartha eva d.rzyasya aatmaa (2.20-21). Most importantly, I would draw attention to suutra 1.4, the very next one in the text - v.rtti-saaruupyam itaratra - 1. 4 kasya? v.rtti-saaruupyam api dra.s.tu.h eva | citta-v.rtti- nirodhe sattva-puru.sa-anyataa-khyaati.h | tasmin sati, cittasya niruddhaavasthaayaa.m, dra.s.tu.h puru.sasya sva- ruupe 'vasthaanam | itaratra, sattva-puru.sa-anyataa-khyaaty- abhaave, tasyaiva dra.s.tu.h pusu.sasya v.rtti-saaruupyam | tasmaat "tadaadra.s.tur" ity atra "dra.s.taa" iti paa.tha.h arthavad bhavati | puru.sa.h samaadhau na ki.mcit pazyati, tasmaad adra.s.taa bhavati iti cet | satya.m sa puru.sa.h asamprajnaate na ki.mcit pazyati | para.m tu samprajnaata- samaaadhaav-api citta-v.rtti-nirodha.h sambhavati, na vaa? savicaraadi-samaadhy-avasthaasu puru.sa.h vi.sayaan pazyaty eva, dra.s.taa ca bhavaty eva | Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 7 21:41:43 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 21:41:43 +0000 Subject: Goddess Ellammaa Message-ID: <161227067170.23782.9246744693628153855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The tensions between ancient Dravidian models of auspiciousness invested in folks like washerwomen, potters, shaman priests of Murukan called as vElans, and dancers like 'viRaliyar' as recorded in the Sangam corpus versus the brahminical system are brought out vividly in the various reNukA-ellammA legends and rituals. The transition accomplished in post-sangam period is clear from the name of the Goddess, mAri. Ethnographers often connect Dravidian goddess name "mAri" found all across the South with the tamil verb, mARu-tal 'to change'. Her physical body itself is a Changed one. Jamadagni, ("all devouring fire") seems to be symbolically related with the "pot-lamp" authority (kuTa viLakku) ever associated with devadaasis. The legend of Parasuraama Jaamadagnya, killing his mother and later completely wiping out all of the Kshatriyas and giving the whole earth away to Brahmins, seem to point mythologically to the Sanskritization process of Southern India. And, the popular Ellammaa-ReNukA-Maariyamman legends with a composite physique of a low-caste body fitted with a brahmin head marks the change of ritual authority from indigenous priests, vElan shamans of Murukan, viRaliyar-type dancers into the hands of brahmins. "The marriage of a Pariah god with a Brahman woman or of a Brahman goddess with a Pariah man, a god's double parentage (one set of parents being of high caste, the other of low caste, eg., Kaattavaraayan, Maturai Viiran), and the theme of the split body (eg. the story of ReNukA) seem to be various expressions of the paradox that the deity in question is both a Pariah and a Brahman. [...] ReNukA's story is very apt. She is one of Brahma's daughters and wife of a sage. When she realizes that she has the body of an Untouchable, she does not return to her husband (probably in heaven) but remains as Maariyamman on earth, where she brings disease and death but also cures and rebirth. Although she is involved in the violence and impure activities on earth, a part of her, symbolized by her Brahman head, remains in the realm of the transcendent, the pure. " (p. 90-91, Eveline Masilamani-Meyer's Kattavarayan essay in A. Hiltebeitel, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees: Essays on the Guardians of Popular Hinduism, SUNY, 1989.) A particularly important offering to ReNukA-Maari is the fire burning in pots. This is related with the 'pot-lamp' waving to add lustration to chiefs, kings done by devdasis from ancient times. "they (ie., men and women) form a procession towards the [Mariyamman] temple while each dances and carries a fire-pot (pU-caTTi) fire in it. The pUccaTTi used here is smaller than the one used only by the pUcAris in other places. It is carried with both hands outstretched. In front of these fire-bearers, other men in Mariyamman's garb, take the lead and dance without any pot. As soon as they enter the temple, the fire-pots are put down in front of the Goddess. They will be left there and removed much later by the priest." (p. 27, M. Biardeau, Brahmans and Meat-eating Gods, in A. Hiltebeitel, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees: Essays on the Guardians of Popular Hinduism, SUNY, 1989.) Has the ReNukaa legend in the MBh. been analyzed in Indological publications? Is the "ReNukAmAhAtmya, SahyAdrikhaNDa, Bombay, 1877" considered in modern scholarship? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Wed Feb 7 21:53:06 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (SUBSCRIBE INDOLOGY Dmitri) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 21:53:06 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067172.23782.11736492267419329518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:29:08 -0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >It is highly prejudicial, to read "unobservable" here, and >to say that the reading has to be adra.s.taa. The Sanskrit >terms for unobservable or unobserved would be ad.rzya or >ad.r.s.ta, not adra.s.taa. It is not so much a prejudice as it is inaccurate expression on my part. My rendering would be: 1. adra.s.tu -- that which has produced no impression 2. ad.rzya -- that which cannot be observed 1. means that one tried to see, what the sensory stimulation came from, but cannot grasp, or form percept of it. The thing to be percieved might be percieved but the subject is in such state that no percept is formed. 2. means the thing to be percieved is out of sight or is invisible, so the reason of non-perception is in the thing to-be-percieved, not in the state of the subject, like in 1. Hope it clarifies it. Best regards, Dmitri. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 8 08:19:08 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 00:19:08 -0800 Subject: cakravartin's cremation Message-ID: <161227067187.23782.3793365969962406069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Reviewing my point about the <> ? ?iron? can only be implied here, as the Pali ayasa, generally ?made of iron,? may also (if supported by Sanskrit) mean, ?made of gold.? Apart from that, the bit about the body being <<_doubly enclosed_ in iron skillets>> has elsewhere been rendered as ?they place the body in an iron vat, _and cover it with an iron lid_.? And so I think Steven Hodge has got it right in suggesting that <> Another poster has privately mentioned that the notion of such an elaborate ?baking? ? the sheer expense of which seems misplaced for a Buddha ? might only make sense if he were planned to be eaten! A thought worth pondering. In any case, such iron containers could hardly have been <>, as considered by Steven. Even modern household pressure-cookers need to let off steam. Moving on, as relates to the cremation of the Buddha?s body, the Mahaparinibbana text states: ?Just as in the burning of ghee or oil, where no residual cinder or ash remains; so with in the burning of Bhagvan?s body. No residual cinder or ash of the outer skin, inner skin, flesh, tendons, or oil of the joints was discerned. Only bone-relics remained. And as for the 500 twin-wrappings of linen and teased cotton wool, all were consumed _except the innermost and the outermost_.? S. Hodge also wrote: <> It is in fact very questionable whether the legendary Buddha is anything more than a composite mythological character [a subject worth delving now]. But YES, as you say, the _authors of the text_ do indeed relate that ?the relics were divided into eight potions. All the relics were divided and shared, nothing remained. The eight portions were honored by stupas: Seven in Jambudipa, and one in Ramagama by kings of the Naga race.? Two teeth are also mentioned: ?One honored in the Tavatimsa heaven, one in the realm of Kalinga... Thus were there eight burial mounds for the bone-relics, a ninth for the urn, and a tenth for the embers...? <> Correct. And these largish pieces in turn get pulverized into the final product, which is often misconstrued as ?the ashes,? not to be mistaken for a summer test cricket series. Innit. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 8 00:24:51 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 00:24:51 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067174.23782.15914105039171789282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Thank you Sri Sundaresan, there is also an etymology of indra - "idam >adarzamitI" in aitareya upaniSat. The variation "idam >darzamitI" lacks the >punch. Any comments if necessary. 1. There IS NO such variation as "idam darzam". It is not even a remote possibility here, so the question of punch or lack of it does not arise. 2. The usage of prefix a- is not restricted to negation. Here, it shows the past tense (I saw). Again, there is no place for "darzam" in the aitareya reference. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Feb 8 00:24:13 2001 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 01:24:13 +0100 Subject: Basava In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067176.23782.10270258097645286261.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Mit, 07 Feb 2001 schrieb N. Ganesan: > What does Basava mean in KannaDa language? > Anything to do with light, brightness, etc.? A tadbhava of Skt. v.r.sabha, "bull". (The religious thinker and saint Basava / Basava.n.na (12th cent.), who organised the Virasaiva community, is also considered an incarnation of Nandin.) Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Thu Feb 8 02:25:21 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 02:25:21 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067181.23782.5819895141984687596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:52:39 +0100, Kengo Harimoto wrote: >I would like to ask Dmitri if he considered the possibility that >draSTuH could be draSTR's genitive singular. (Hint: draSTR appears >four times in the sUtras: 1.3, 2.17, 2.20 (see Vidyasankar's cooment) >and 4.23.) Yes, I did. In fact it is interpreted this way in, say, RAma PrasAda's translation of VAcaspati Mizra gloss on VyAsacommentary. > >MMW does not have draSTu (m.) on p. 501, col. 1. nor draSTu as a noun >(p. 501, col. 2), nor the meaning percept, etc. on p.501, col. 2 of MW draSTu is given as initial stem of compounds. As far as meaning "percept", I think I made it quite clear that meanings given in my interpretation often are different from those in MW or other dictionaries. The meaning of words is derived according the scheme given, not from dictionaries. >I'm afraid to say that it is full of beginner's mistakes. (Everyone >who did not learn Sanskrit by the traditional way must remember being >unable to find a word ending -tu(H) or -tA in the dictionaries until >being told by the teacher it is a derivative from -tR in the first >year Sanskrit class. At least I do :-) Derivatives in -tu and in -tA are quite legal way to derive words from roots. Examples are dhAtu, vastu and devatA, vIratA. I explicitly assumed that whatever mechanism is present in Sanskrit for derivation, it might be present in YS. And the fact that draSTu is present in compounds like draSTukAma is an indication that draSTu might be a legally derived word. Sorry to hear, that one case of what you consider a mistake made you stop reading. I'm sure there some mistakes in what I did, but whether they will invalidate the whole interpretation remains to be seen. Best wishes, Dmitri. From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Thu Feb 8 01:52:39 2001 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 02:52:39 +0100 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: <200102072359.f17NxLY02458@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227067178.23782.13404274120824346635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello List, In order not to be harsh, just one comment on the new interpretation. I stopped reading it (yes, I downloaded the file) at 1.3 because: draSTuH was read as nominative singular. I would like to ask Dmitri if he considered the possibility that draSTuH could be draSTR's genitive singular. (Hint: draSTR appears four times in the sUtras: 1.3, 2.17, 2.20 (see Vidyasankar's cooment) and 4.23.) MMW does not have draSTu (m.) on p. 501, col. 1. nor draSTu as a noun (p. 501, col. 2), nor the meaning percept, etc. (Above may appear unclear without looking at Dmitri's work. I am referring to it.) I see him having put so much energy into the work (it is formatted beautifully), but learning to read Sanksrit by oneself appears to be quite difficult. I'm afraid to say that it is full of beginner's mistakes. (Everyone who did not learn Sanskrit by the traditional way must remember being unable to find a word ending -tu(H) or -tA in the dictionaries until being told by the teacher it is a derivative from -tR in the first year Sanskrit class. At least I do :-) -- kengo From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 8 14:43:02 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 06:43:02 -0800 Subject: Goddess Ellammaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067191.23782.15949272926793278730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> goddess ellamma/mari is generally angry, euphemistically she is called siitaladevi. In the 18/19th centuries she was hurting/curing with smallpox, and now even her shakti is tested to its limits. She is the AIDS-amma, and India's prayer is she does not let the new affliction grow to the order and magnitude that Africa faces. AIDS-amma in Karnataka: http://www.news.harvard.edu/science/current_stories/24.Feb.00/aids.html --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > The tensions between ancient Dravidian models > of auspiciousness invested in folks like washerwomen, potters, > shaman priests of Murukan called as vElans, and dancers like > 'viRaliyar' as recorded in the Sangam corpus versus the brahminical > system are brought out vividly in the various reNukA-ellammA legends > and rituals. The transition accomplished in post-sangam period is > clear from the name of the Goddess, mAri. Ethnographers often connect > Dravidian goddess name "mAri" found all across the South with the > tamil verb, mARu-tal 'to change'. Her physical body itself is a > Changed one. > > Jamadagni, ("all devouring fire") seems to be symbolically related > with the "pot-lamp" authority (kuTa viLakku) ever associated with > devadaasis. The legend of Parasuraama Jaamadagnya, killing his mother > and later completely wiping out all of the Kshatriyas and giving the > whole earth away to Brahmins, seem to point mythologically to the > Sanskritization process of Southern India. And, the popular > Ellammaa-ReNukA-Maariyamman legends with a composite physique of a > low-caste body fitted with a brahmin head marks the change of ritual > authority from indigenous priests, vElan shamans of Murukan, > viRaliyar-type dancers into the hands of brahmins. > > "The marriage of a Pariah god with a Brahman woman or of a Brahman > goddess with a Pariah man, a god's double parentage (one set of > parents being of high caste, the other of low caste, eg., > Kaattavaraayan, Maturai Viiran), and the theme of the split body > (eg. the story of ReNukA) seem to be various expressions of the > paradox that the deity in question is both a Pariah and a Brahman. > [...] > > ReNukA's story is very apt. She is one of Brahma's daughters > and wife of a sage. When she realizes that she has the body of an > Untouchable, she does not return to her husband (probably in heaven) > but remains as Maariyamman on earth, where she brings disease and > death but also cures and rebirth. Although she is involved in the > violence and impure activities on earth, a part of her, symbolized > by her Brahman head, remains in the realm of the transcendent, > the pure. " > (p. 90-91, Eveline Masilamani-Meyer's Kattavarayan essay in > A. Hiltebeitel, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees: Essays > on the Guardians of Popular Hinduism, SUNY, 1989.) > > A particularly important offering to ReNukA-Maari is the > fire burning in pots. This is related with the 'pot-lamp' > waving to add lustration to chiefs, kings done by devdasis > from ancient times. > "they (ie., men and women) form a procession towards the [Mariyamman] > temple while each dances and carries a fire-pot (pU-caTTi) fire in > it. The pUccaTTi used here is smaller than the one used only > by the pUcAris in other places. It is carried with both > hands outstretched. In front of these fire-bearers, other men > in Mariyamman's garb, take the lead and dance without any pot. > As soon as they enter the temple, the fire-pots are put down > in front of the Goddess. They will be left there and removed > much later by the priest." > (p. 27, M. Biardeau, Brahmans and Meat-eating Gods, in > A. Hiltebeitel, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees: Essays > on the Guardians of Popular Hinduism, SUNY, 1989.) > > Has the ReNukaa legend in the MBh. been analyzed in Indological > publications? Is the "ReNukAmAhAtmya, SahyAdrikhaNDa, Bombay, 1877" > considered in modern scholarship? > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 8 07:02:46 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 07:02:46 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067182.23782.14655694334069562902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Just to correct my statement: >There are commentaries, such as that one Madhva, which read this line as: >naasata.h vidyate abhaava.h, naabhava.h vidyate sata.h. Madhva says: >asata.h kaara.nasya sato brahma.naz caabhaavo na vidyate. (BG 2.16). To clarify a little further, for those who are wondering how asata.h abhaavao na vidyate, or why asat = kaara.na - Madhva interprets the word asat here as prak.rti, which is material cause. And sat = brahman, which is instrumental cause. For Madhva, unlike other vedAnta commentators, brahman is not the material cause of the universe. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Feb 8 07:49:53 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 07:49:53 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067185.23782.10010139722448781115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitri writes > >Derivatives in -tu and in -tA are quite legal way to derive words from >roots. Examples are dhAtu, vastu and devatA, vIratA. But they have to be added to the appropriate forms of the stem, not just any old how--see Macdonell's Sanskrit Grammar paras 182-3, pp.159-166. > >I explicitly assumed that whatever mechanism is present in Sanskrit >for derivation, it might be present in YS. And the fact that draSTu is >present in compounds like draSTukAma is an indication that draSTu might >be a legally derived word. This is a perfectly regular way of forming a compound with the infinitive minus final m plus kAma or manas, see Macdonell para 211b, p. 204. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From pieterjanve at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 8 12:55:43 2001 From: pieterjanve at HOTMAIL.COM (pieter-jan van eggermont) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 12:55:43 +0000 Subject: sabk-e-hindi/urdu poetry Message-ID: <161227067189.23782.13797171955024277263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for information on the local Indian influence in sabk-e-hindi/early Urdu poetry. It seems from my research on "Mirza Rafi Sauda" that the "highly persianised character" that is often taken as a standard for early Urdu poetry (with Persian poetry as its ancestor) might need some modification. The local Indian themes in Sauda's qasida are manifold : Hindu ceremonies and festivals, Braj-styled figures of speech, etc... I want to continue research on this theme in earlier sabk-e-hindi literature in order to look and redefine Indian influence on Persian literature (also outside the Indian subcontinent). Any information would be most welcome, as I haven't been able to contact any scholars working on this particular theme. Pieter-Jan van Eggermont _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 8 20:59:25 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 12:59:25 -0800 Subject: the British and Devanagari (Was: Urdu, Hindi, and Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227067207.23782.17728774504545419170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic" schrieb: > I have not heard about British printing any works in Sanskrit in any script > but which other script could have been used? Perhaps, regional scripts like Sarada, Telugu, Kannada, Tamil Grantha. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 8 18:58:04 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 13:58:04 -0500 Subject: the British and Devanagari (Was: Urdu, Hindi, and Sanskrit) Message-ID: <161227067200.23782.3771633208317352156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seem to recall the British made a decision that printing of Sanskrit works from government institutions would only be in Devanagari. But I have no idea where I heard this. Is this true? If so, what are the sources for the assertion and when, how, and why was the decision made? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Thu Feb 8 15:23:36 2001 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 15:23:36 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067193.23782.14228198977189870454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:39:04 -0000, Stephen Hodge wrote: >Imagine what the level of religious understanding and knoweldge would >be in India now of all the religious and philosophical classics if the >British, for example, had outlawed devanagari and other traditional >scripts in favour of total romanization ! It depend on what other limitations on printing they put in place, would it not? As long as they get printed, would the script make any difference? On the other hand, if the British had systematically stopped Indians from printing the classics (after all, there were laws restricting the ownership of printing presses in Company days, if not during the Crown Raj; goverment control of means of communication seems still remain close to the hearts of bureaucrats and politicians), would the script staying Nagari made any difference? After all, all these classics had to be edited from manuscripts which were in various scripts at different stages of their history. Those who used printed works, I suspect, would have learnt a systematic romanization in short order. Those who actually produce printed editions from manuscripts will need speicalized training, just as they do now. And not having to squint at the conjunct letters to make them out properly is payback enough. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Feb 8 20:50:25 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 15:50:25 -0500 Subject: the British and Devanagari (Was: Urdu, Hindi, and Sanskrit) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067202.23782.17258030632889699525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen W Thrasher has written as follows: >I seem to recall the British made a decision that printing of Sanskrit >works from government institutions would only be in Devanagari. But I >have no idea where I heard this. Is this true? If so, what are the >sources for the assertion and when, how, and why was the decision >made? I have not heard about British printing any works in Sanskrit in any script but which other script could have been used? British army did print their documents in Roman script. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of checks From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 8 20:55:49 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 15:55:49 -0500 Subject: the British and Devanagari Message-ID: <161227067204.23782.11580286807933078226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> But that was in Hindustani for the troops, not Sanskrit. They also used Romanized Nepali for the Gurkha regiments. Allen Thrasher From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Feb 8 20:59:43 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 15:59:43 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <04ca01c091eb$8178e5e0$6b2e893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227067209.23782.494643338378762523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge has written as follows: >Sorry, I perhaps I did not express myself well enough. What happened >under Ataturk was a very harsh and destructive repression of religious >beliefs and practices. This seems to be your personal opinion in your attempt to discredit Kamal Pasha's legacy which I do not share. >speaking, illegal at least until the 80s. According to my Turkish >Sufi friends, there was virtually a blanket ban on all Sufi texts I suspect that they are really fundamentalist Islamists masquerading as sufis since Turkey is even to this day is the only secular country whose population is predominantly muslim. There were many such Islamists during his time in India who launched a misguided movement called Khilafat. The word "Khilaf" was deliberately misused since it means "opposition" and has nothing to do with Caliph or Khalifa. Even Mahatma Gandhi was duped into supporting this movement which ultimately led to a demand for separate country and resulted in the formation of Pakistan. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: We promise according to our hopes and perform according to our fears. ... La Rochefoucauld From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Feb 8 16:22:07 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:22:07 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067196.23782.13153929793803248224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhyanath Rao wrote: > It depend on what other limitations on printing they put in place, would it > not? As long as they get printed, would the script make any difference? > On the other hand, if the British had systematically stopped Indians from > printing the classics (after all, there were laws restricting the ownership > of printing presses in Company days, if not during the Crown Raj; goverment > control of means of communication seems still remain close to the hearts of > bureaucrats and politicians), would the script staying Nagari made any > difference? Sorry, I perhaps I did not express myself well enough. What happened under Ataturk was a very harsh and destructive repression of religious beliefs and practices. One must also remember that, for example, the Mevlevi religious practice of Sema ("whirling") was still, technically speaking, illegal at least until the 80s. According to my Turkish Sufi friends, there was virtually a blanket ban on all Sufi texts being published afresh and none could be reprinted in banned Arabic script -- all that would have been available in pre-war years were old Ottoman lithographic copies or manuscripts in Arabic script and access to these diminished as each new generation grew up who could not read the old script which is far harder to master than Nagari as it does not represent Turkish very well. Hence, supposing the situation in India had been similar under the British -- a new script but no publication permitted of most old religio-philosophical texts in transliteration. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 8 17:05:30 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 17:05:30 +0000 Subject: A cremation ritual Message-ID: <161227067198.23782.8998476008526397920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a question whether the following cremation ceremony is recorded in "Hindu"/Buddhist/Jain literatures of ancient times. Also, anything similar in ethnographic literature recorded by anthropologists. Thanks in advance. Among Kongu Vellalas in the Western part of the Tamilnadu, traditionally barbers and washermen serve important functions in key life rituals. On the third day of a cremation funeral, close male relatives, barbers, ... go to collect the bones left. in a vessel. These bones will be put in a flowing river, usually kAviri, vAn2i(bhavAni) or noyyal/kAJci, and then the barber pours milk at the foot of a green tree, called pAccai that has milky sap, and then the barber exclaims "poli, poli". Online Tamil Lexicon: poli-tal poli-tal poli-tal 01 1. to flourish, prosper, thrive; 2. to be enlarged; to appear grand, as from dress; to swell in size, as rice in boiling; to grow full; 3. to abound, increase; 4. to bloom, as the countenance; to shine; 5. to be high, great or celebrated; 6. to be auspicious or fortunate; 7. to live long and prosperously, used as a benediction; Is this "poli" ceremony signify that "let the soul/spirit of the deceased person go and reside in the tree"? Incidentally, barbers serve as bards of the Kongu region. They sing the oral epic in praise of Kongu vellalas: Brenda Beck a) Elder brothers story, an oral epic of Tamil / collected and translated by Brenda E.F. Beck Madras, India : Institute of Asian Studies, 1992. 2 v. b) The three twins : the telling of a South Indian folk epic / Brenda E.F. Beck., Indiana University Press, c1982. 248 p. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Feb 8 22:46:06 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 22:46:06 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067212.23782.2236014709773221732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is moving away from Indology very rapidly but my last word on the matter: Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: > This seems to be your personal opinion in your attempt to discredit Kamal > Pasha's legacy which I do not share. Sorry, but it is not my personal opinion but based on testimony from many people I have met in Turkey. As far as I have been able to ascertain, their statements are an accurate account of the facts. Why, for example, were there no tekkes in Turkey until the Uskudar Tekke was re-opened in the 80s whereas there had been hundreds in pre-Ataturk days ? Why was Sema only legally performed once a year in Turkey, at Konya, and then as a tourist attraction ? Why was one old man arrested in the early 60s after the Sema there because he was praying while whirling ? Have you actually been to Turkey and spoken to many people ? I doubt it very much. > I suspect that they are really fundamentalist Islamists masquerading as > sufis since Turkey is even to this day is the only secular country whose > population is predominantly muslim. You suspect wrong and insult my friends -- they are leading Mevlevi and Naqshabandi Sufis, including some of the most famous Sufi musicians alive. They are certainly not fundamentalists whom they dislike since they know that they would also be banned under a fundamentalist Islamic regime -- after one all night session of ilahis in the early 80s, one of them remarked, "Of course, you realize we would all be locked up if we were in Iran now". Another said with sadness that perhaps the only good that would come out of Iranian etc fundamentalism might be highlight for the world the gulf between it and true Islam. hardly the views of "fundamentalists masqerading as Sufis". BTW: I personally am not a Muslim nor even a Sufi and hold no brief for them beyond personal friendship -- my contact over many trips to Turkey with such people was based on a love of the music. . I shall not comment on the remainder of your msg since it is a red herring and irrelevant to my point. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 9 14:45:30 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 06:45:30 -0800 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067218.23782.4830469970508572560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Chandran wrote: >> So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers >> if he wasn't a dvija. S. Hodge wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. >You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya >earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? For all the three var.nas, except the Shudras, "dvija" (twice-born) is applied. A good study of how this works in N. India: The twice-born, a study of a community of high-caste Hindus, Carstairs, G. M. (G. Morris), Indiana University Press, 1961. Application of varNa schemes onto anything like fauna or flora: Smith, Brian K., Classifying the universe : the ancient Indian varna system and the origins of caste, OUP, 1994 Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Fri Feb 9 13:08:07 2001 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 14:08:07 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) In-Reply-To: <200102082359.f18NxMY29453@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227067214.23782.11135252731521425520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Dmitri and List members, [I'm afraid this may not be going anywhere.] > Yes, I did. In fact it is interpreted this way in, say, RAma PrasAda's > translation of VAcaspati Mizra gloss on VyAsacommentary. The reason why I asked was that I know that everyone except you think it's draSTR. YBh (and VAcaspati and Shankara (whoever this Sankara may be)), Bhoja, BhAvagaNeCa, Nogoji BhaTTa, RAmAnandayati, Anantadeva, SadACivendra SarasvatI all think it's masculine genitive singular. (Don't ask me who they are.) > Sorry to hear, that one case of what you consider a mistake made you > stop reading. It was more like the last blow :-) Well, to be honest, not really. The real last blow came at 1.7. You totally missed very simple dvandva compound. [I'm going to remove rather harsh comment below.] -- kengo From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 9 20:00:50 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 15:00:50 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067234.23782.13135527365422199966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not again into the mine field (Sanskrit), but this one must be easy. There was the story of three fishes (kathAsaritsAgaram?): dIrghdarzi, prAptakAlajna and mandabuddhi who faced the problem of a drying lake. The first fish plans in advance and escapes to a river; the second one plays a trick on fishermen and eraches the river; while the third one perishes in the lake or gets caught. citta, saGkalpa and manas are similar to the three fish in that order as the three fish. Please check chAndogya upaniSat. 7.3.1 and 7.5.1 (chAndogya which is part of Agama, the last of the three valid pramANas as per YS 1.7) 7.3.1 defines manas (commonly translated as mind) as an entity that can view two objects (two forms of speech) at a time. manas has no further functionality, so it simply reacts to two or more stimuli and gets dragged one way or other. 7.4.1 defines saGkalpa (we will get to vikalpa later!)as higher than manas. What is saGkalpa? It is a determination that "We will tackle it when we come to it". 7.5.1 defines citta as higher than saGkalpa. citta is an active entity which has intelligence, consideration etc. advaita Azrama version translates citta as intelligence. So cittavRtti nirodham is not just "stopping the mind"; the latter is a crude procedure which in turn only results in more of vAc (speech) back to square-2 (square-1 being name). cittavRtti niridham is avoiding comtemplation, because it is too tiring to go on using intelligence to trouble-shoot every problem that comes up. So why not do "meditation" which is the next one explained in 7.6.1 and get rid of the source of these stimuli? I suppose the sUtras are going as per the sequence in chAndogya. (May I know clearly what is the question regarding the dvanda?) Thanks in advance Bhadraiah Home page.. http://homes.acmecity.com/friends/harmonica/301 egroup..... http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/VedicRitual _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Fri Feb 9 16:16:57 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 16:16:57 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067220.23782.11751585829908437193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:08:07 +0100, Kengo Harimoto wrote: >The real last blow came at 1.7. You totally missed very simple >dvandva compound. > Dear Kengo, I am well aware that the traditional deconstruction of the compuond in I.7 is dvandva. It does not however make an alternative derivation structure an error. There are many such differences. It is an ambiguity inherent to YS. Regards, Dmitri. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 9 22:15:23 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 17:15:23 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067236.23782.1816420259204529421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Bhadraiah Mallampalli >7.4.1 defines saGkalpa (we will get to vikalpa later!)as higher than manas. >What is saGkalpa? It is a determination that "We will tackle >it when we >come to it". saGkalpa is translated as "will" which is also found in the sentence "We will tackle...". (English is also good for word play! There was another good one somewhere in Ai. Br. which says "Anointment (of kings etc) is the ointment in the eye". More IE parallels on Vedic word play?) >So cittavRtti nirodham is not just "stopping the mind"; the latter is a >crude procedure which in turn only results in more of vAc >(speech) back to >square-2 (square-1 being name). I may have been harsh on "stopping the mind". If it is crudely done it can lead to a step down to vAc (speech), but if it is done intelligently it can lead to will. >cittavRtti niridham is avoiding comtemplation, because it is too tiring to >go on using intelligence to trouble-shoot every problem >that comes up. So >why not do "meditation" which is the next one >explained in 7.6.1 and get >rid of the source of these stimuli? Meditation (dhyAna) is possible only when the model is complete (pUrNamadaH.. etc). The model is complete only when we consider all the viewers, hence my original discussion re: infinite viewers. (I appreciate if any one kindly explains the question regarding the dvandva in YS I.7) Best regards Bhadraiah Home page.. http://homes.acmecity.com/friends/harmonica/301 egroup..... http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/VedicRitual _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 9 17:20:20 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 17:20:20 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067222.23782.14372778737333241769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It does not however make an alternative derivation structure an error. > >There are many such differences. It is an ambiguity inherent to YS. Hello Dmitri, I would suggest you take another look at the word citta, in the terms cittAntara, paracitta etc, in the other three pAdas of YS. "That which mind is fixed upon" presumes a mind, which has not yet been introduced anywhere in the first few sUtras. And similarly, also the word pratyaya. Other grammar can wait ... Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 9 18:04:21 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:04:21 +0000 Subject: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067224.23782.10016554409864264535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > For the word , cAkrika, Monier Williams gives "bard" as one of the > meanings. (He cites Wilson for this.) I would appreciate if someone > can give any actual examples of its occurrence in that meaning in > Sanskrit texts? Thanks in advance. Note that MW himself, under the closely related sense "proclaimer", cites Yajn. [yAjJ] 1.165, Hariv. 9047. The word occurs once in the MBh at 12.69.49a, bhikSukAMz cAkrikAMz caiva kSIbonmattAn kuzIlavAn. This is a list of people who should be removed from a city that comes under military threat, since they will otherwise cause harm (doSAya syur hi te 'nyathA): beggars, cAkrikas, eunuchs, lunatics and kuzIlavas. The pairing of cAkrikas with kuzIlavas perhaps suggests that some sense such as "bard" is intended, and it would make some sense to banish street performers at a time of crisis. (However, Nilakantha glosses cAkrikAn as zAkaTikAn, "carters", and kuzIlavAn as phAlalekhAn kInAzAn "hoe-wielding cultivators" -- perhaps not his most convincing interpretation.) Your word does not occur in the Ramayana. John Smith >>> In Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Sri Lanka, there are a caste who go by the name, cakkiliyar. Etymologically, cakkiliyar is related to Skt. cakri/cAkri. Cakkiliyar who speak a variety of Telugu play drums during festivals. Online Tamil Lexicon entries: cakkiliyan2 = chucklers, workers in leather cakkili = caste of shoemakers cakkilicci = 01 a woman of the Cakkili caste cAkkili = menial service Chuckler in Hobson-Jobson: CHUCKLER , s. Tam. and Malaya?l. shakkili, the name of a very low caste, members of which are tanners or cobblers, like the Chama?rs (see CHUMAR) of Upper India. But whilst the latter are reputed to be a very dark caste, the Chucklers are fair (see Elliot's Gloss. by Beames, i. 71, and Caldwell's Gram. 574). [On the other hand the Madras Gloss. (s.v.) says that as a rule they are of "a dark black hue."] Colloquially in S. India Chuckler is used for a native shoemaker. c. 1580.--"All the Gentoos (Gentios) of those parts, especially those of Bisnaga, have many castes, which take precedence one of another. The lowest are the Chaquivilis, who make shoes, and eat all unclean flesh. . . ."--Primor e Honra, &c., f 95. 1759.--"Shackelays are shoemakers, and held in the same despicable light on the Coromandel Coast as the Niaddes and Pullies on the Malabar."--Ives, 26. c. 1790.--"Aussi n'est-ce que le r?but de la classe m?pris?e des parrias; savoir les tschakel?s ou cordonniers et les vettians ou fossoyeurs, qui s'occupent de l'enterrement et la combustion des morts."--Haafner, ii. 60. [1844.--". . . the chockly, who performs the degrading duty of executioner. . . ."<-> Society, Manners, &c., of India, ii. 282.] 1869.--"The Komatis or mercantile caste of Madras by long established custom, are required to send an offering of betel to the chucklers, or shoemakers, before contracting their marriages."--Sir W. Elliot, in J. Ethn. Soc., N. S. vol. i. 102. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Fri Feb 9 18:28:59 2001 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 18:28:59 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067226.23782.3350360024797954537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:22:07 -0000, Stephen Hodge wrote: >[...] there was virtually a blanket ban on all Sufi texts >being published afresh and none could be reprinted in banned Arabic >script -- all that would have been available in pre-war years were old >Ottoman lithographic copies or manuscripts in Arabic script [...] Precisely. It is not the script reform, but the ban on reissues in the new script. That was not so explicit in the original post: Cf, Rohan Oberoi's comments in this thread. How quickly politics overwhlems logic! From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 9 19:16:50 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 19:16:50 +0000 Subject: (Private) Re: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067228.23782.3942823083883319007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:04:21 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >In Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Sri Lanka, there are a caste who go >by the name, cakkiliyar. Etymologically, cakkiliyar is >related to Skt. cakri/cAkri. Cakkiliyar who speak a variety of >Telugu play drums during festivals. > >Online Tamil Lexicon entries: >cakkiliyan2 = chucklers, workers in leather >cakkili = caste of shoemakers >cakkilicci = 01 a woman of the Cakkili caste >cAkkili = menial service > >Chuckler in Hobson-Jobson: > Is Arundathiyar of Tamil Nadu same as Cakkilliar ? In Sri Lanka they were are mostly brought to work as scavengers although many have found independent occupation as cobblers. A tradition, which has historic precedence. According to Mahavamsa, scavengers (Chandalas) were brought in by the original colonists from India (North or South ?) to keep the capital city of Anuradhpura clean and were settled in a village nearby named appropriately as Chandala Grama. Nowadays many Cakkiliar have converted to Buddhism or Christinanity and their unique Telugu dialect is giving away to Sinhala just like another uniquely Telugu speaking group in Sri lanka, namely the Kurava "gypsies". Raveen From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 9 19:24:26 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 19:24:26 +0000 Subject: (Private) Re: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067230.23782.16903651714313107167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry private message inadvertently sent to the entire list :-( Raveen From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 10 00:27:19 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 19:27:19 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <04f801c09221$0591ef40$6b2e893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227067238.23782.14264288668074214603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge has written as follows: >man arrested in the early 60s after the Sema there because he was >praying while whirling ? Have you actually been to Turkey and spoken >to many people ? I doubt it very much. Kamal Pasha died in 1928 therefore your statement about 60s does not apply to him unless you assume he is still alive. Just because you may have personally visited a country does not make you an expert on its history. Do you know Gen Musarraf's father was posted in Turkey when he was a child? He was schooled there and is a great admirer of Ataturk. I had great hopes from his assumption of power when I found out this fact. I wish he can rise to the level of Kamal Pasha and get Pakistan rid of the mullahs that have taken over in that country. >I shall not comment on the remainder of your msg since it is a red >herring and irrelevant to my point. I have discussed reforms of Ataturk only as they fall within the scope of this list due to their impact on the contemporary reformers in India which you did not find relevant to discuss. It is up to you to comment on whatever you choose and I will comment on the matters of my choice. Nobody can force either of us to do otherwise. I have the quota of only two messages per day on this list and have to use my own discretion on what subjects to respond. I regularly read newsgroups about Turkey and for more information you may visit http://www.ataturk.com/ . Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Life is a great teacher. Unfortunately, it kills all its pupils. ... Hector Berlioz From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 9 19:37:03 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 19:37:03 +0000 Subject: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067232.23782.12381602963100262133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is Arundathiyar of Tamil Nadu same as Cakkilliar ? I think their communty sangham is called Arundathiyar sangham. Read that Sri Lankan kings had been from Madurai Nayak dynasty from the book: Holt, John, / The religious world of Kirti Sri : Buddhism, art, and politics in late medieval Sri Lanka / John Clifford Holt. New York : Oxford University Press, 1996. Regards, N. Ganesan --------------------- In Sri Lanka they were are mostly brought to work as scavengers although many have found independent occupation as cobblers. A tradition, which has historic precedence. According to Mahavamsa, scavengers (Chandalas) were brought in by the original colonists from India (North or South ?) to keep the capital city of Anuradhpura clean and were settled in a village nearby named appropriately as Chandala Grama. Nowadays many Cakkiliar have converted to Buddhism or Christinanity and their unique Telugu dialect is giving away to Sinhala just like another uniquely Telugu speaking group in Sri lanka, namely the Kurava "gypsies". Raveen _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 10 02:15:36 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 21:15:36 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <05d001c092fd$8d9e0ae0$6b2e893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227067250.23782.11638759305651995330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge has written as follows: >I did say I would not comment anymore on this thread as it is not >Indological, but just briefly: But you could not resist to have the last word. Anything that you do not approve does not count. >No, but his legacy lived on for a long time -- you may applaud this >while I may deplore certain aspects. That's all. Does it mean anything? Can he be held liable for his successors and how can any reasonable person assume that his successors are following his own solutions? >No, but are your qualifications any better ? Of course. I have studied a lot more than you about his ideas and reforms and still follow the event in the country. Just as you were not born in India but have shown interest enough to join this list. I am also a subscriber to list on Turkish interests and have many email friends in that country. >> visit http://www.ataturk.com/ . >An impartial source of information ? What is your definition of impartial? Do you claim that only what you say or write is impartial? Are you accusing every one else to be partial? Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: There's a difference between a philosophy and a bumper sticker. From l_s_k at NETZERO.NET Sat Feb 10 03:56:46 2001 From: l_s_k at NETZERO.NET (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 22:56:46 -0500 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067252.23782.9613804918758365052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aditya, You have a wish that will remain as a wish unfulfilled. You dont need to be skeptical about this one :-) Cheers - Suresh ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 07:27 PM Subject: Re: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit > Do you know Gen Musarraf's father was posted in Turkey when he was a child? > He was schooled there and is a great admirer of Ataturk. > I had great hopes from his assumption of power when I found out this fact. I > wish he can rise to the level of Kamal Pasha and get Pakistan rid of the > mullahs that have taken over in that country. Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 04:26:36 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 01 23:26:36 -0500 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067254.23782.9374758708226107539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Sundaresan, Sri Sundaresan, >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan >>cittavRtti niridham is avoiding comtemplation, because it is too tiring to >>go on using intelligence to trouble-shoot every problem >>that comes up. >>So why not do "meditation" which is the next one >>explained in 7.6.1 and >>get rid of the source of these stimuli? >Neutralizing the stimuli within one's own cognitive apparatus is what > >cittav.rttinirodha is all about. One can't "get rid" of external >sources >of stimuli, unless one physically destroys the whole world. Thank you for your attention. But is there really anything that is external? I am not denying the external world, but whatever is in the external world is effectively and efficiently represented by speech (vAk) and prANa in their various transformations; irrespective of whether we agree speech and prANa really grasp the complete essence of the external world or not, and irrespective of whether we believe they can predict what will happen in the external world. They could care less, because they can handle any situation by taking any name or form depending on the situation. If there are still external objects to be handled, YS would have mentioned that :=) >And why suppose? I mean the positioning of the word citta is as per the same unbroken tradition. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 10 00:40:06 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 00:40:06 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067240.23782.14414069608665686272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >N. Chandran wrote: >>> So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers >>> if he wasn't a dvija. > >S. Hodge wrote: >>Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. >>You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya >>earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? > >For all the three var.nas, except the Shudras, "dvija" (twice-born) is >applied. A good study of how this works in N. India: Gautama Buddha (Shakyamuni) was a Shakya, who were a branch of Ikshavakus, thus (always) a Kshatriya. The previous Buddhas were either Brahmin or Khatriyas. Most of the immediate disciples of Gautam Buddha were Brahmin, as were a majority of the leaders of the Indian Buddhist Sangha. While Dvija really means any of the three higher varnas, since they can wear the upavita, if is sometimes used only for the Brahmins. Other than Brahmins, very few other communities in Indian have traditionally worn the sacred the thread. By the traditional brahmaical view, most of the so-called "upper castes" are sachchhUdra. It is practically impossible to show with absolute certainty that a supposed Vaishya or Kshatriya community was Vaishya or Kshatriya in antiquity (That is why some scholars have declared in the past that the two middle varnas have ceased to exist). It is also true for several Brahmin communities. Thus at the present time, the existence of four distinct varnas is a myth. Mahatma Gandhi combined the attributes all four varnas. Born a "vaishya", he defined dharma like a rishi, commanded a nation like a kshatriya, and cleaned toilets like a shudra. Perfectly acceptable. Varnas are no longer separated. (Gandhi's son married daughter of a very brahmanical brahmin, and it hasn't been considered to be pratiloma.) Yashwant From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Feb 10 00:56:32 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 00:56:32 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067242.23782.14561663604094462647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't know if it is my imagination but are this and Swaminathan's msg are repeats from last year -- I have long since deleted the original thread ? Vipaaka of email karma ? Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: Yashwant Malaiya To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 12:40 AM Subject: Re: dvija varNa > Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > >N. Chandran wrote: > >>> So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers > >>> if he wasn't a dvija. > > > >S. Hodge wrote: > >>Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. > >>You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya > >>earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? > > > >For all the three var.nas, except the Shudras, "dvija" (twice-born) is > >applied. A good study of how this works in N. India: > > Gautama Buddha (Shakyamuni) was a Shakya, who were a branch of > Ikshavakus, thus (always) a Kshatriya. The previous Buddhas were > either Brahmin or Khatriyas. Most of the immediate disciples of Gautam > Buddha were Brahmin, as were a majority of the leaders of the > Indian Buddhist Sangha. > > While Dvija really means any of the three higher varnas, since they can > wear the upavita, if is sometimes used only for the Brahmins. > > Other than Brahmins, very few other communities in Indian have > traditionally worn the sacred the thread. By the traditional > brahmaical view, most of the so-called "upper castes" are sachchhUdra. > It is practically impossible to show with absolute certainty > that a supposed Vaishya or Kshatriya community was Vaishya or Kshatriya > in antiquity (That is why some scholars have declared in the past that > the two middle varnas have ceased to exist). It is also true for several > Brahmin communities. Thus at the present time, the existence of four > distinct varnas is a myth. > > Mahatma Gandhi combined the attributes all four varnas. Born a "vaishya", > he defined dharma like a rishi, commanded a nation like a kshatriya, and > cleaned toilets like a shudra. Perfectly acceptable. Varnas are no longer > separated. (Gandhi's son married daughter of a very brahmanical brahmin, > and it hasn't been considered to be pratiloma.) > > Yashwant > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Feb 10 01:04:36 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 01:04:36 +0000 Subject: Urdu,Hindi,and Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227067245.23782.2692795918141441459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I did say I would not comment anymore on this thread as it is not Indological, but just briefly: Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic wrote: > Kamal Pasha died in 1928 therefore your statement about 60s does not apply > to him unless you assume he is still alive. No, but his legacy lived on for a long time -- you may applaud this while I may deplore certain aspects. That's all. > Just because you may have personally visited a country does not make you an > expert on its history. No, but are your qualifications any better ? > It is up to you to comment on whatever you choose and I will comment on the > matters of my choice Of course -- you are perfectly entitled to do so within the stated constraints of this list though big brother is watching :) > I regularly read newsgroups about Turkey and for more information you may > visit http://www.ataturk.com/ . An impartial source of information ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 01:10:14 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 01:10:14 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067247.23782.6764300650012584160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >cittavRtti niridham is avoiding comtemplation, because it is too tiring to >go on using intelligence to trouble-shoot every problem that comes up. So >why not do "meditation" which is the next one explained in 7.6.1 and get >rid >of the source of these stimuli? I suppose the sUtras are going as per the >sequence in chAndogya. Neutralizing the stimuli within one's own cognitive apparatus is what cittav.rttinirodha is all about. One can't "get rid" of external sources of stimuli, unless one physically destroys the whole world. And why suppose? Look at the sequence in chAndogya - naama < vAc < manas < saMkalpa < citta < dhyAna < vijnAna < bala < anna < ap < tejas < AkAza < smara < AzA < prANa. The yogasUtra gives no hint of such a scheme. And each vidyA in the upanishads comes with a particular context, which must be properly understood. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 06:40:22 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 06:40:22 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067256.23782.17064027148886420835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >situation >by taking any name or form depending on the situation. If there are still >external objects to be handled, YS would have mentioned that :=) It does. I already pointed out once to YS 2.20-21. Now I quote YS 2.22 - k.rtaartha.m prati na.s.tam apy ana.s.ta.m tad, anya- saadhaara.natvaat. The *tad* here is d.rzya, which would include all "external objects". Note that I have hitherto given only YS references, and have nowhere quoted any commentary. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 13:47:17 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 13:47:17 +0000 Subject: Goddess Ellamma Message-ID: <161227067259.23782.16440632802679673413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Rm. Krishnan wrote: >Gradually the non-brahmin customs get modified. For example the tribal >practice of a goat sacrifice will get >changed to a pumpkin breakage (with kunkum paste mimicking blood) Earlier >paNdAram would have poured/sprayed water over the goat and showed Araththi. >Now the Brahmin priest would be spraying water placing camphor over the >pumpkin, after kunkum is smeared over. The pumpkin with burning camphor >would be used for Araththi to ward off evil and it would be broken outside >of the temple. This process was put in place for a long time in India; In the North, this was happening much before than what can be observed in the South or East. D. L. Eck, Banaras: City of Light, p. 54 "The Buddhist jataka tales, like the Puranas, tell of the worship of yakshas, ... What is especially interesting to us is that in many of these tales various yakshas, yakshIs, and nagas are converted to the worship of the bodhisattva. These yakshas are said to be tree-dwelling deities who are to be propitiated with offerings of meat as well as the traditional incense and flowers. It is clear that the cultus of ancient Banaras included the form of worship called bali. The remnants of this ancient cultus are plainly visible today. When we see the trunks of great trees daubed with orange sindUr, swathed about with string, and sprinkled with water by circumambulating worshippers; when we see a plain stone in a "shrine" consisting of nothing but two bricks surmounted by a slab of rock; when we see worshippers bathing in a pool; when we see them smearing Ganesha or Hanuman with vermilion and sprinkling flowers in his lap - we are seeing something of this city's religious life that is pre-Shaiva, pre-Buddhist, and probably more than three thousand years old." In the thread, Etymology of Puujaa, A. Parpola wrote in October 1995: "If puujaa originally refers to worship, the Dravidian etymology from the root puucu 'to smear' is quite acceptable. We must remember that among the oldest objects of worship in South Asia are the sacred trees, and smearing the tree trunks with red-coloured powders and oils was an integral part of the early tree cult (cf. e.g. J. Auboyer, Daily life in ancient India, 1961, page 154). The Rgvedic sense 'to honour' may be due to a secondary widening of the meaning." In the exquisite words of the poet A.K.Ramanujan, a variant of the Ellamma/Mariyamman story: "A sage's wife, Mariamma, was sentenced by her husband to death. At the moment of execution she embraced an outcaste woman, Ellamma, for her sympathy. In the fray both the outcaste woman and the brahmin lost their heads. Later, the husband relented, granted them pardon and restored their heads by his spiritual powers. But the heads were transposed by mistake. To Mariamma (with a brahmin head and an outcaste body) goats and cocks but not buffaloes were sacrificed; to Ellamma (outcaste head and brahmin body) buffaloes instead of goats and cocks." (p. 24, Speaking of Siva, Penguin). Literally, we see as percentage of brahminness in the goddess' body increases, the "cleanliness" of offerings increase. Often, Indian middle castes claim beef or pork are less "clean" compared to goats or fowl, and avoid taking those flesh. Best wishes, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 15:19:02 2001 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 15:19:02 +0000 Subject: Mystics and Missionaries Message-ID: <161227067262.23782.16609844694090727137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The recent flurry of exchanges between Aditya Mishra and Stephen Hodge points to a deeper issue that I think warrants further discussion--the varying ways and patterns in which mysticism is connected with organized religion. Mystics affiliated with a given religion, for instance, may be recruited to attract newcomers and to "soften up" their initial resistance. Missionaries then take over and complete the job of formal conversion. S.Tilak _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sat Feb 10 21:47:47 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 16:47:47 -0500 Subject: Mystics and Missionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067274.23782.14154706021561345292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Satya Upadhya has written as follows: >There are mystics in hinduism as well, and there are hindu converts in >North America (caucasian and even sometimes blacks). [Just visit any Hare >Krishna temple.] Wonder whether your logic applies to hinduism as well. Surely does. I remember when HK used to accost at airports dressed in saffron uniform but now they have decided to adorn regular outfit. However, there is a difference from the mainline Hinduism which is not a messianic religion and therefore no missionaries. A native Hindu can only be outcasted but not incasted since there is no concept of conversion to Hinduism. There is no ritual that can be performed to convert a non-Hindu to Hinduism. It is only later day messiahs like Dayanand, Ramkrishnand, Mahesh Yogi and Prabhupad who have adopted western missionary techniques to their own brand of Hinduism and have been fairly successful. Let me add that the very first messianic religion, Buddhism, did originate in India and it did have missionaries. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: A psychiatrist is a fellow who asks you a lot of expensive questions your wife asks for nothing. ... Joey Adams From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 16:51:13 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 16:51:13 +0000 Subject: F.D.K. Bosch's book Message-ID: <161227067264.23782.7507100900826012758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, It was a tamil tradition in the ancient times to donate cows and calves covered with gold or gold-like ornaments to the priests. This gifting along with the Rgvedic ideas of born in a golden egg was fused together to create the HiraNyagarbha ceremony in the South India to make the kings presumably of shudra varNa into kshatriyas. Once this ceremony of gifting gold cows to brahmins was perfected, the same method was carried to South East Asia. The buddhist epic, maNimEkalai talks of a HiraNyagarbha ceremony in Java. A gold cow with an egg because birds are dvijas. Buddhist Manimekalai is polemical towards Brahmins and portrays a brahmin who stole cow as a pulaiya outcaste. The Telugu BasavapurANamu also is highly critical of the hiraNyagarbha ceremony. Are there any publications dealing with the hiraNyagarbha ceremony in South East Asia? What about Bosch's Golden Germ? Thanks for your help, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 10 17:36:11 2001 From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 17:36:11 +0000 Subject: Mystics and Missionaries Message-ID: <161227067266.23782.6103538621876939847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The recent flurry of exchanges between Aditya Mishra and Stephen Hodge >points to a deeper issue that I think warrants further discussion--the >varying ways and patterns in which mysticism is connected with organized >religion. Mystics affiliated with a given religion, for instance, may be >recruited to attract newcomers and to "soften up" their initial resistance. >Missionaries then take over and complete the job of formal conversion. > S.Tilak > There are mystics in hinduism as well, and there are hindu converts in North America (caucasian and even sometimes blacks). [Just visit any Hare Krishna temple.] Wonder whether your logic applies to hinduism as well. -Satya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 10 22:37:44 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 17:37:44 -0500 Subject: Summer SANSKRIT @ Harvard Message-ID: <161227067277.23782.18128557059954843994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as in the past 11 years, we are offering an Introductory Sanskrit course this Summer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. June 25 - August 17; exam period Aug. 14-17 Instructor: Michael Witzel This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fees: Application fee (non-refundable) $40 Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 3,600 Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American carrier) On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: $ 3,050 plus Housing deposit $ 680 Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) through June 7. Downloadable forms at the web site: http://www.dce.harvard.edu/summer/default.html Late registration June 7 - June 24 ($50 late fee). Monday, June 25-Friday, June 29 ($100 late fee) Catalogues/Information from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone 617- 495 4024 On-line catalogue: ================= http://www.dce.harvard.edu/summer/default.html (includes general information, downloadable forms etc.) This Sanskrit course: http://www.dce.harvard.edu/summer/2001/courses/sans.html For assistance call 617 - 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) =========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Ave. Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 10 22:42:58 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 17:42:58 -0500 Subject: R.Thapar/R.Prasannan on Aryans & Sarasvati Message-ID: <161227067279.23782.3955945275329830745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> During my stint at the College de France in January, my Paris colleagues drew my attention to an issue of the Courrier international (Paris), vol. 534, Jan. 25-31, 2001, p. 40-41. It deals with the Aryan Origins of the Indian Civilization (by Romila Thapar) and the Mystery of the Sarasvati (by R. Prasannan). R. Thapar's article (Sur les origines aryennes de la civilization indienne) is a French translation of her response to S. Farmer's and my paper in FRONTLINE of Oct.1`3, 2000. lead: "The Aryans, are they autochthonous or invaders? What were their relations with the old cities of the Indus? Hindu nationalists try to manipulate the facts in order to serve their territorial ambitions. The Indian historian Romila Thapar answers them." R. Prasannan's paper (D'Inde ou d'ailleurs? Le mystere du Sarasvati demeure) is a translation of an article in THE WEEK (Cochin). It questions the location of the Sarasvati (Arachosia or Kuruksetra). lead: "For centuries, the archaeologists have been investigating the disappeared course of the river Sarasvati, on whose banks the Rigveda should have been written. Complex history of a national myth." Those who want to read this may ask me, individually and off-list, for the web address. ---------------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sat Feb 10 18:03:39 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 18:03:39 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067268.23782.10057346151786496571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:20:20 -0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >I would suggest you take another look at the word citta, in >the terms cittAntara, paracitta etc, in the other three pAdas >of YS. -ta is a passive participle forming suffix. Root cit means (MW 395.2) to percieve, fix mind upon, attend to, observe, notice, etc. This is a transitive root. "That which mind is fixed upon" has a passive participle meaning derived from transitive "cit". So what's the problem with it? As far as agreement with other pAdas, I tried to make SamAdhi PAda coherent first. The major problem for "citta" as "mind" is I.37. All rendering of it that use "mind" meaning are quite a stretch. >"That which mind is fixed upon" presumes a mind, which >has not yet been introduced anywhere in the first few sUtras. YS is anuzAsana not zastra. Therefore, not all concepts are introduced, but only those, requiring special definition. >And similarly, also the word pratyaya. Meaning of pratyaya I use is an analogy with its use in Panini's grammar -- an affix that gives the word its final meaning. There are many parallels with grammar in YS (quite in agreement with traditional view of YS's Patanjali being the author of Mahabhazya as well), so I don't see what's wrong with my rendering of pratyaya -- the final step in formation of gestalt. >Other grammar can wait ... I'd like to hear about other grammar. Best regards and thanks for comments, Dmitri. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sat Feb 10 17:24:11 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 18:24:11 +0100 Subject: SV: Mystics and Missionaries Message-ID: <161227067291.23782.5360262143823349640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrinivas Tilak [SMTP:shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 10. februar 2001 16:19: > The recent flurry of exchanges between Aditya Mishra and Stephen Hodge > points to a deeper issue that I think warrants further discussion--the > varying ways and patterns in which mysticism is connected with organized > religion. Mystics affiliated with a given religion, for instance, may be > recruited to attract newcomers and to "soften up" their initial resistance. > Missionaries then take over and complete the job of formal conversion. > S.Tilak Isn't this a rather "conspiratorial" view of mysticism? As far as I can see, most religions have their mystics, and the relationship between the mystics and the clergy in general can be quite tense. This goes not only for Islam but also for Christianity. I believe several Medieval Christian mystics were condemned as heretics by the Church. As for the spread of Christianity, I can't see that mysticism played an important part. In Poland and Hungary, Christianity was adopted by the kings as a policy measure. Further east, in the Baltic, Christianity was introduced by the sword, an instrument which also played a part in the Christianization of Norway. In general, political elites seem to have played a crucial role in the spread of Christianity up through the middle ages. Modern missionary activitities are of course somewhat different, but even here politics and weaponry have played their part. As for the spread of Islam, it has been argued that Sufi mystics had an important role in the spread of Islam in South Asia. This is of course possible, but it hardly supports the view that mystics in general function as a kind of "third column" before missionaries start doing their dastardly deeds :-). Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sat Feb 10 18:27:46 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 18:27:46 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067270.23782.11894598665242712028.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:00:50 -0500, Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: >Please check chAndogya upaniSat. 7.3.1 and 7.5.1 (chAndogya which is part >of Agama, the last of the three valid pramANas as per YS 1.7) > ... First of all, there are no metaphysics in SamAdhi-PAda, as I see it, at all. Concepts are defined only to help understanding practical techniques. Therefore, all discussions about various types of mind, intelligence etc. seem to be out of place when reading SamAdhi-PAda. Second, it is a common assumption that YS has strong correspondence with some upanishads and with Samkhya. I can see no reason whatsoever why it is so. Rather, YS is being squeezed into the mold of metaphysical discources where it does not fit well and does not belong. Making an assumption that YS might be understood with concepts and ideas from Samkhya is a good example of cittavRtti called smR'ti. ;-) >(May I know clearly what is the question regarding the dvanda?) Hengo Harimoto made a remark that the first compound in I.7 is a dvandva compound that is an enumeration of valid cognitions. I responded to hin that another deconstruction is possible: see I.7 for details. A general remark. Listing Agama -- usually translated as testimony -- as a valid cognition is a gross error. How valid a testimony is? My view is that of Descartes: empirical data (rTa) always overweights testimony. That is why I made the interpretation we currently discuss. Best regards and thanks for your continuous attention, Dmitri. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 10 18:49:25 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 01 18:49:25 +0000 Subject: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067272.23782.7111885657592866340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:37:03 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >>Is Arundathiyar of Tamil Nadu same as Cakkilliar ? > >I think their communty sangham is called Arundathiyar sangham. > >Read that Sri Lankan kings had been from Madurai Nayak dynasty from >the book: >Holt, John, / The religious world of Kirti Sri : Buddhism, art, and politics >in late medieval Sri Lanka / John Clifford Holt. >New York : Oxford University Press, 1996. > >Regards, >N. Ganesan Noted Sri Lankan historian Lorna Srimathie Dewaraja is considered to be by many to be the ultimate source in the history of the last three Kings of kandy who were supposedly of Madurai Nayyakar origin. "Matrimonial Alliances between Tamilnad and the Sinhalese Royal Family in the 18th Century and the Establishment of a Madurai Dynasty in Kandy" was presented by her at the Fourth International Tamil Conference Seminar January 1974, Jaffna, Sri Lanka and is archived at http://www.tamilnation.org/cnfJA74/lorna.htm The accession of Sri Vijaya Rajasimha Author: K.W. Goonewardene, Date: 1995 Extract from the Sesquicentennial Commemorative Volume of the Royal Asiatic Society of Sri Lanka 1845-1995 archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/varalaaRu/message/121 he says of Lorna's work on kandyan kings "The first edition was a University of London doctoral dissertation by L.S. Dewaraja, it was entitled A Study of the Political, Administrative and Social Structure of the Kandyan Kingdom of.Ceylon, 1707-176a The Second Edition published in 1988 is an expansion of the first and is entitled The Kandyan Kingdom of Sri Sanka 1707- 1782. The first edition itself virtually displaced all the earlier writings as authorities on the subject and had served as an authority for other scholars to take-off not merely into the history of the period but also into such inquiries as those with regard to a Sinhala- Buddhist identity and communal relations at the present day." following is a bio on her Lorna Srimathie Dewaraja (Colombo, Sri Lanka) submitted: 1/23/95 (by mail) Lorna Srimathie Dewaraja Doctor 94/2 Lauries Road Colombo 4, SRI LANKA ph: 502666 Description of work: History of South Asia; special interests in history of Sri Lanka; the Kandyan Kingdom; French interests in Sri Lanka; history of the Muslims in Sri Lanka; foreign relations of Sri Lanka from ancient to modern times; spread of Buddhism; third world women and development; women and religion; position of women in Buddhism with special reference to Sri Lanka; women in politics with special reference to Sri Lanka and South Asia; the changing role of the Sangha in Sri Lanka; ethno-nationalism in South Asia. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/idsas/DEWARAJA,Lorna.htm From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 11 02:01:37 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 02:01:37 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067282.23782.5173315344436910495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >-ta is a passive participle forming suffix. >Root cit means (MW 395.2) to percieve, fix mind upon, attend to, observe, >notice, etc. This is a transitive root. >"That which mind is fixed upon" has a passive participle meaning derived >from transitive "cit". So what's the problem with it? Nothing, till one realizes that words like manas, buddhi and citta can have different meanings based on context. In some places, they refer to "internal organ", which is a material entity, and in other places, they can just refer to such things as "awareness", "will", "cognition" etc. One doesn't have to impose saa.mkhya upon the yogasuutras to realize this. Take the compound citta-v.rtti, which you take as "v.rttis beginning with citta". However, YS 1.5 says v.rttis are of five types, and 1.6 lists them as pramaa.na, viparyaya etc. This is a straightforward pointer to interpret citta-v.rtti as "v.rttis of the citta" - a different kind of tatpuru.sa. >As far as agreement with other pAdas, I tried to make SamAdhi PAda coherent >first. The major problem for "citta" as "mind" is I.37. All rendering of it >that use "mind" meaning are quite a stretch. Aren't you imposing a very Western mind vs. matter duality on an Indian school of thought? Similarly with your comment on the word aagama, on which you have imposed a Cartesian presumption. Beyond that, no comment. But see below. >>"That which mind is fixed upon" presumes a mind, which >>has not yet been introduced anywhere in the first few sUtras. >YS is anuzAsana not zastra. Therefore, not all concepts are introduced, but >only those, requiring special definition. In that case, the words kli.s.ta and akli.s.ta are introduced in YS 1.5, but the corresponding noun, kleza, is not defined till YS 2.3. Needs to be studied carefully, with respect to taking samaadhi-paada to be entirely independent of the rest of the text. >>And similarly, also the word pratyaya. >Meaning of pratyaya I use is an analogy with its use in Panini's grammar -- >an affix that gives the word its final meaning. samaadhi-paada has the following compounds - abhaava-pratyaya, viraama-pratyaya and bhava-pratyaya. Other compounds occur in the other three paadas. Are these merely different kinds of verbal affixes? >>Other grammar can wait ... >I'd like to hear about other grammar. Well, to take just one early case - your interpretation of YS 1.6 takes its list of nouns ending in the plural number as a copulative compound, but in 1.7, it takes a related list of nouns ending in the plural number as a different kind of compound. Again, without getting into saa.mkhya, and without getting into the possible identity of patanjali, why so? Best wishes, Vidyasankar From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 11 12:42:18 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 04:42:18 -0800 Subject: Mystics and Missionaries Message-ID: <161227067293.23782.11185262780414586220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Tilak wrote: << ??the varying ways and patterns in which mysticism is connected with organized religion. Mystics affiliated with a given religion, for instance, may be recruited to attract newcomers and to "soften up" their initial resistance. Missionaries then take over and complete the job of formal conversion.>> Aditya wrote: << It is only later day messiahs like Dayanand, Ramkrishnad, Mahesh Yogi and Prabhupad who have adopted western missionary techniques to their own brand of Hinduism and have been fairly successful ? Let me add that the very first messianic religion, Buddhism, did originate in India and it did have missionaries.>> And it still does. But who are they, really? Some points regarding this "mystic" " messianic" and "missionary" religion called "Buddhism" and the troubling historicity of its alleged founder "The Buddha." Why has this issue been so blaringly condoned by contemporary academia? Because the figure of "The Buddha" has become not only everybody's pinup boy, but also a universal figure upon which people's perfect dreams have been pinned? Has "The Mystical Buddha" become ? by tacit definition ? contemporary society's superlative god-man figure devoid of all the faults found in all other world religious? Has "The Buddha" become our contemporary folk hero, a "soft" and fuzzy repository of all the things acceptable to the liberal minded people? And does this furthermore warn us to the softened faculties of discernment of contemporary academicians whose lances dull when it comes to dissecting the Magnus Corpus of "The Buddha." I applaud Steve Farmer's Sep. 2000 posts re. "'Buddha' before the Pali Canon?" Steve has made a significant contribution by excellently articulating the essence of an inquiry that has gone too long unexplored. I don?t know why scholars continue to treat this Buddha Myth question so uncritically?or maybe I do know. A commonly held belief worth noting. There are those who believe that a historical human being called Gautuma, Sakyamuni, Angirasa, or what ever, certainly did exist. They believe "The Buddha" existed in a way more believable than, say, Jesus may or may have not existed. They believe in an "irreducible" human being even though admitting no available evidence. They would also concur with Steve's idea that 'hagiography has built a kind of superstructure unto this quasi-historical figure making it admittedly impossible to disentangle from the core being. 'True,' they confess, 'one cannot dismiss the possibility that "The Buddha" ever existed.' Yet, almost none of them feel much urge to ? at this point ? demand any list of existing evidence in support of that life. So irreducible to what: A sixth century BC sunnyasin who taught some sort of raja-yoga and espoused a special doctrine, who took on many ascetic disciples and enjoyed broad community support? Who are the real Buddhist missionaries today? The softened academic community? And what are their techniques? Regrds, Ven Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU Sun Feb 11 03:59:10 2001 From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 04:59:10 +0100 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: <200102100000.f1A008Y05579@orion.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <161227067284.23782.5033452669065366293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [I corrected the subject. Stupid mistake on my part.] > It is an ambiguity inherent to YS. No such thing as ambiguity in 1.7 (and in some other places). I was about to introduce the background of the number and definitions of pramANas in Indian philosophy, but just realized that MMW says ``cf. pramANa'' under prataykSa, etc. Did you do this? It seems your authority on the meaning of Sanskrit words is MMW. It appears that you are just trying to differ to everyone else. Other than that, what justification is there? You don't have a clue to the meanings of Sanskrit words without dictionaries, as not being a native speaker. Still, you even try to deliberately choose most unlikely meanings or interpretations. It seems that your assumption is that everyone else is wrong. Or is it that it must be wrong because everyone else reads that way? OTOH, I would suggest looking at other philosophical sUtras. You will find ambiguity in them, too. For one thing, SUtras are ambiguous by definition (except for Buddhist sUtras, and maybe others?). Try reading PANini's sUtras by themselves. They are usually accompanied by a BhASya. Unless you are being given instructions from a guru, who knows all the secrets concentrated in the sUtras (but how can you know he is trustworthy?), the folks like you and me, have to rely on the BhASyas to understand them. [Well, the MahAbhASya does not make our life much easier, though.] And the YS is not compiled out of blue without any connection to the context it was in. The discussion of pramANa was a very popular one. It may appear all the meanings are created equal in the dictionary, but given the context the text was in, there are meanings to choose from. In connection to 1.7, let me introduce YS 1.49 (CrutAnumAnaprajJAbhyAm anyaviSayA viCeSArthatvAt), where the word anumAna appears again. Interesting thing about this sUtra is that it refers to the definition of anumAna and Agama given in the BhASya. The sUtras do not give the definition of the pramANas. The BhASya on 1.7 says that the primary domain of anumAna and Agama is sAmAnya while that of pratyakSa is viCeSa. And, when you see anya, you should expect ablative. So, you should first suspect that the dual of the first compound may be ablative. You should also know that a pramANa roughly equivalent to Agama is called Cabda or Aptavacana in other schools. It might be called Cruti although it could be used in the sense of pratyakSa in other contexts. But that's what the BhASya does. Given all these, it seems natural to understand YS 1.49 as the BhASya says. In turn, YS 1.7 is the list of pramANas. The sUtra is so simple that even without the help of the BhASya, most everyone sees it as dvandva. [I may actually have done it wrong in my first year of learning Sanskrit :-(] One could get an F if [s]he translates such a simple sUtra in the way you did. So, one sUtra (1.49) appears to presuppose what is said in the BhASya (1.7). At this point, one has to question whether it is justifiable to see the YS and the YBh as simply a text and its commentary, composed at different times. There is even a view that the YS was compiled by the author of the YBh. Although I think it is a bit of stretch, it is likely that the PAtaJjalayogaCAstra, the combination of the YS and the YBh evolved as a whole. As a side issue, would you be surprised to hear that the author of a commentary on the PAtaJjalayogaCAstra did not have the same version of sUtras as we see today? I do admire your ambition and am surprised that one could do that much apparently without the help of a teacher. But it's kind of true that there are things that could only be learned from a teacher. Or, one needs a guidance to know which direction [s]he should go. -- kengo From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 11 10:39:22 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 05:39:22 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067287.23782.4012811339853162651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan >It does. I already pointed out once to YS 2.20-21. Now I quote >YS 2.22 - k.rtaartha.m prati na.s.tam apy ana.s.ta.m tad, anya- >saadhaara.natvaat. The *tad* here is d.rzya, which would include >all "external objects". Note that I have hitherto given only YS >references, and have nowhere quoted any commentary. I agree that external objects may be referred, but these are usually internalized as names, name being the closest mental faculty that represents external object. Even tatvamasi contains 'tat'. I agree that internal objects can be 'seen', so the word dRzya may be justified. I still have a question on 'neutralizing cognition'. Traditionally commentaries have placed a great emphasis on moral values, hence the mention of avoiding attraction of external objects, control of senses, neutralizing of cognition etc. But these items don't stand technical scrutiny. In fact one can argue other way also. The sense organs are merely transducers which convert light, sound and mechanical energy to chemical and electrical signals. It is the buddhi that handles them which needs to be fixed. So why beat up the sense organs or cognition? When zruti says "Eye is human wealth", it means the concepts created by the eye are also human wealth, and the concepts being same as objects, whatever objects are seen by the eye are also human wealth. So where is the question of attraction or acquisition when everything is mine? Also all these attractive or even unattractive things that ones sees are a creation of jAtavedas etc, which in turn are a form of prANa which is oneself. So why go after any objects, why not study jAtavedas themselves instead? So there is actually a case for full development of senses and cognition than otherwise. cittav.rttinirodha can not be neutralizing the stimuli within one's own cognitive apparatus. cit being one of the trio 'sat, cit and Anandam', playing with cit must be a lot more intelligent than usually portrayed. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Feb 11 15:02:17 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 10:02:17 -0500 Subject: New: HOS 57: Samaveda with 3 comm. Message-ID: <161227067295.23782.14918293008344510703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am glad to be able to announce a new release by the Harvard Oriental Series, vol. 57, the magnum opus by my old friend Prof. B.R. Sharma, his puurnaahuti, as he says. This is the first vol. (puurvaarcika) of the Samaveda Samhita of the Kauthuma School, published along with 3 commentaries. The second vol. (due late this year) will contain the uttaraarcika, the third one various indexes and a long introduction. --------------------------------------------------------- The Samaveda Samhita of the Kauthuma School With Padapatha and the Commentaries of Madhava, Bharata-Svamin and Sayana Edited by B. R. Sharma The Samaveda contains the earliest tradition of music from India. It presents largely Rigvedic textual material in a form arranged for singing in the solemn Srauta ritual. Since the first editions by Theodor Benfey (1848) and Satyavrata Samasrami (1874-1899), there has been no complete, accented edition that also included all its important commentaries. The present edition is based on manuscripts collected from all over India and Europe. B.R. Sharma, Dean of Samaveda studies, presents the accented text, its Padapatha, and the commentaries of Madhava, Bharata-Svamin and Sayana in three volumes of 2500 pages. These contain the Purvarcika and Uttaracika portions of the text, and a third volume the indexes and a detailed introduction to the whole work. Vols. 2 and 3 to appear soon. Harvard Oriental Series 7 1/2 x 10 1/2 944 pp. cloth ISBN 0-674-00588-0 (SHASAM) $95.00x (65.50 UK) Religion / Hinduism; also Music / Religious Libr. of Congr. PK2971 .H3 294.5'9213047--dc21 00-052626 ----------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Feb 11 16:07:26 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 11:07:26 -0500 Subject: Mystics and Missionaries In-Reply-To: <20010211124218.1763.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067301.23782.8584618722281968100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ven. Tantra" has written as follows: >And it still does. But who are they, really? Do you mean to say that you do not know who they are where they are? The Buddhism itself is a mission with a defined church called Sangha. The 3 sentences uttered daily as a prayer by them are : 1. Buddha sharanam gachhami 2. Sangham sharanam gacchami. 3. Dhammam sharanam gacchami (Parenthetically speaking, the current establishment in USA though limited by the First Amendment, has set up its own ritual in the form of Pledge of Allegiance. I cannot see any justification for its utterance at each and every public gathering, even a sport event or start of a school day etc.) Even though Buddhism is now considered a religion for intellectuals and freethinkers but obviously more rigid and allows very little individualism. It is claimed that Buddha was an atheist but the organization that he founded made him a god of his own church. In this respect Buddhism may be akin to Marxism as I consider Marxism practiced today to be no less a religion than christianity. A large number of missionaries were sent abroad by King Asoka who adopted Buddhism as his state religion. These missionaries are responsible for the spread of Buddhism throughout Asia. There are even Buddhist gideons worldwide who place Buddhist texts in your hotel rooms in many Asian cities. It is said that Siddarth's own son joined him and became a missionary. >I applaud Steve Farmer's Sep. 2000 posts re. "'Buddha' >before the Pali Canon?" Steve has made a significant >contribution by excellently articulating the essence >of an inquiry that has gone too long unexplored. I >don?t know why scholars continue to treat this Buddha >Myth question so uncritically?or maybe I do know. I missed his postings because I was too busy at the time. I will see if they are available in the archives. >did exist. They believe "The Buddha" existed in a way >more believable than, say, Jesus may or may have not >existed. They believe in an "irreducible" human being >even though admitting no available evidence. Th only physical evidence of Jesus's existence, the shroud has been shown to be a 13th century item but Buddha's teeth are supposed to be available and it may be possible to do DNA analysis to determine his age and time. Mohammed's hair is supposed to be preserved in Kashmir but no one has yet done DNA analysis on that so far. >irreducible to what: A sixth century BC sunnyasin who >taught some sort of raja-yoga and espoused a special >doctrine, who took on many ascetic disciples and >enjoyed broad community support? That is good enough explanation and what more do you need? However, his doctrine was revolutionary since the mainline practice was more individualistic and did not have any organization. I Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: The notion of a "record" is an obsolete remnant of the days of the 80-column card. ... Dennis M. Ritchie From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 11 11:32:30 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 11:32:30 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067289.23782.1555824541134895745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I agree that external objects may be referred, but these are usually >internalized as names, name being the closest mental faculty that >represents external object. Even tatvamasi contains 'tat'. I agree Hai Ram, it is impossible to discuss anything, if the context is not given due importance! There is no point in getting into a field like Yoga or Vedanta, without cultivating the mental discipline necessary for it. At the very least, there should be a little knowledge of the primary texts. Please don't take this badly; I wish you well. The "tat" in YS 2.21 refers to the d.rzya mentioned in YS 2.20. The "tat" in tattvamasi refers to "sad ekam eva advitIyam", as described in the beginning of that particular chapter in chAndogya. If you want to relate this to Yoga, this "tat" would correspond to the innermost dra.s.taa. This "tat" and that "tat" are not the same. The word "tat" in Sanskrit is just like the word "that" in English. It indicates something already described in the immediate context. If you mix up two different texts with their two different contexts wilfully, you end up with unnecessary confusion. I'm sure you have heard of GIGO. >that internal objects can be 'seen', so the word dRzya may be >justified. Who is justifying what, and to whom, here? Do you mean to say that someone should justify Patanjali's usage of d.rzya? >cittav.rttinirodha can not be neutralizing the stimuli within one's own >cognitive apparatus. cit being one of the trio 'sat, cit and Anandam', Check the dictionaries for how cit and citta can be different things, philosophically. And check the meaning of nirodha also (rudhir aavara.ne). You may want to read the yogasUtras for your purposes, but you seem to want to fit everything in this universe into a preconceived model of indrA, agnI, yajnA and jAtavedas (I use your transliterations here). If so, I am sorry - there can be no reasonable discussion any more. I'm unable to find indrA and bRhaspatI where you find them. >playing with cit must be a lot more intelligent than usually portrayed. I won't even begin to comment about this. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 11 15:13:20 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 15:13:20 +0000 Subject: vezyA 'courtesan' Message-ID: <161227067297.23782.6122628512734566254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. R. Steiner answered: >Skt. ve"syaa ``prostitute, courtesan" has to be connected with >Skt. ve"sa ``house; brothel; prostitution" which is already attested >in the Vaajasaneyi-Sa.mhitaa (Kaa.nva recension), in Manu, etc. >(cf. the noun vi"s ``habitation, settlement" and the root vi"s, or >ve"s ``enter, settle in", already .Rgvedic and of Indo-European >origin). Many thanks to Indologists who have been kind to provide answers both off- and on-line. The problem, however, is well described in a publication: "The French priest [Abbe Dubois] is shocked by the fact that any connection with courtesans or dancers attached to the temple is favourably looked upon according to the following proverb: Ve"sya dar"sanam pu.nyam paapa naa"sanam, which means literally 'to see a courtesan(or prostitute) is auspicious and the destruction of sin'[230]. This proverb does full justice to the devadasi as a nityasumangali, the ever-auspicious female. This auspiciousness is implored by society in the case of wedding ceremonies[231], in processions of the gods [232], and while carrying the sacred water to the temple [233]. Even after retirement from active temple-service the devadasis of Vaishnava temples were called Kali-yuga-lakshmi(goddess of prosperity in the worst world-period of kali)[234] and kali-yuga-parvati in Saiva temples [235]. The important function of the devadasis in South Indian temple ritual and society is well illustrated by another proverb: Urukku oru tEvaTiyAL Arukku en2Ru ATuvAL? 'The village has only one devadasi; for whom is she to dance?[236] This proverb implies that she suffers from overwork because all want her services, and as such is used by married women who feel that the burden of the household rests only on their shoulders. [230] Cf. Abbe Dubois, op. cit., p. 310; according to him the translation of this saying is "To have intercourse with a prostitute is a virtue which takes away sin", however dar"sana (Skt.) does not mean intercourse but 'seeing'. " (p. 47, S. C. Kersenboom, Nityasumangali). The dancing women in the Sangam period were routinely given gold ornaments, gold flowers and garlands. Even today, the devadasis in South Indian temples receive parivaTTam or paTTam "golden silk brocade" tied around their head, a great honor on festival days. Devadasis from ancient times in inscriptions and literature are called mANikkam, mANikkatti etc. 'ruby, jewel'. In the A.P., and KarnATaka they are called Basavi 'the bright one', a cognate in tamil is from vayattal, vayaGkutal, - all to do with 'lustre, auspiciousness'. Incidentally, vacavan2 (Cf. kuyavan, kucavan 'potter', Tulu kusave) is "poli-kALai" = steer used for "covering". Ellammaa/Maari where el- 'light, bright' etc., is fond of fire-pot offerings, reminescent of 'pot-lamp' lustration wavings reserved as Devadasi duty. Women going naked as offerings for goddess Ellamma whose legends of decapitation by Parasuramar reminds of erotic Lajjagauri sculptures where a naked woman with no head is depicted in early Indian sculpture: "The most ancient shrine of Ellamma is at Ugargol in Belgaum district, Karnataka. In a village named Chandra Giri, Karnataka, devotees proceed from home to temple in a state of nudity to worship ReNuka-Ellamma, the ancient Earth mother. Indian Antiquary (1882), pp. 122-3" (Pupul Jayakar, The Earth mother, p.223, Harper & Row). Tamil verb, vEy- vEy-tal 1. to put on, as a garland; to wear, as crown; 3. to surround; 4. to set, as gems; 5. to be fitted with; 6. to bore; to open, blossom Tamil noun, vEy has meanings like 'lute' and 'composition, as of a song' This root also gives birth to the Tamil word for king, vEntan2, who converts inauspicious uncontrolled natural power into auspicious and controlled power. Like devadasis receiving gold garlands, paTTam, parivaTTam 'silk cloth', titles of kings like paTvardhan, paTTa-kAr describe their auspicious state. Is it possible that cognates of tamil vEy- "to wear a crown/head-band, to be bright, to be auspicious" describing the function of courtesan dancers, was subsequently (re)interpreted with the Sanskrit root verb, viz- "to enter"? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 11 15:26:48 2001 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 15:26:48 +0000 Subject: SV: Mystics and Missionaries Message-ID: <161227067299.23782.16827094606469924188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote >Isn't this a rather "conspiratorial" view of mysticism? As far as I can see, most religions have their mystics, and the relationship between the mystics and the clergy in general can be quite tense.> All world religions (including Hinduism) are (or have been) missionary religions and most reveal a mystical dimension. Masao Abe ("Buddhism," In Our Religions edited by Arvind Sharma 1993: 69-138) has proposed a three-fold typology of missionary activity depending on the degree of pressure with which the obligation to convert others is felt by those belonging to a given organized religion--(1) emissary, (2) promissory, and (3) commissary. (# 1) involves, according to Professor Abe, minimizing the differences between one's religion and those of others (e.g. Buddhism); (# 2) promises more to the proselyte while emphasizing the difference between one's religion and those of others (e.g. Christianity); (# 3) places the followers of a religion under a commission to convert and maximizes its difference from other religions (e.g. Islam). If we accept this typology, all world religions have exerted pressure of one kind or another to proselytize (including, I presume, coercion and conspiracy). My interest is in understanding the role played by mystics affiliated with a given organized religion in that process. Hinduism does not figure in the above typology. However, in a personal conversation Professor Sharma told me that he discussed the issue with Professor Abe and they concurred that Hinduism may fall under the "exemplary" category to the extent that it presents a paradigmatic model and invites others to join in. In that sense its approach is closer to Buddhism. Shrinivas Tilak, Dept of Religion, Concordia University Montreal, Canada (514) 848 2065; 2069 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sun Feb 11 16:13:16 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 16:13:16 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067303.23782.17030192574523889408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 02:01:37 +0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >... words like manas, buddhi and >citta can have different meanings based on context. Quite agree with this. My point is that 1. It is not certain that VyAsa used the correct context for YS 2. The context should be assumed the same through the whole YS text, and not changed from one sUtra to the next. I assumed context for citta, vRttis etc. to be phenomena of perception. And, it turns out that it is possible to consistently interprete samAdhi-pAda in this context. >Take the compound citta-v.rtti, which you take as "v.rttis >beginning with citta". However, YS 1.5 says v.rttis are of >five types, and 1.6 lists them as pramaa.na, viparyaya etc. >This is a straightforward pointer to interpret citta-v.rtti >as "v.rttis of the citta" - a different kind of tatpuru.sa. I fail to see how it is a "straightforward pointer". Could you elaborate on this? OTOH: Distortions of sensation while it's being transformed into percept are quite kliSTa-akliSTa -- experimental conditions allow for setting level of intensity of various sources of distortions in quite controllable fashion. >Aren't you imposing a very Western mind vs. matter duality on >an Indian school of thought? Similarly with your comment on the >word aagama, on which you have imposed a Cartesian presumption. I try not to impose it. As a matter of fact, I don't have to resort to any metaphisics like duality mind vs. matter and like. What I use of Descart is the method of inquiry. Proof by reference to an authority is not accepted as a valid proof. This is a tradition going back to at least Pyrrho. But, let's assume that somehow (e.g. by a divine blessing), south of Himalayas reference to authority IS a valid proof. This assumption leads to a good question: Are the words of authority understood correctly? De facto, it is aknowledged by Indian scholastic tradition that there is a difficulty in understanding words of Vedas correctly. That is why there were grammars composed, nirukta written, etc. --- to restore original meaning of Vedas and other scriptures authority of which might be used as a proof. Am I wrong here? If I am at least partially correct, than the next question is: What are the reasons to believe that vyAsa got it right with YS? >>>And similarly, also the word pratyaya. >>Meaning of pratyaya I use is an analogy with its use in Panini's grammar -- >>an affix that gives the word its final meaning. ... >... Are these merely different kinds of verbal affixes? No, pratyaya is used in the sense "the final step in gestalt formation". Please, look in Mini-Dictionary section for explanations. >Well, to take just one early case - your interpretation of YS >1.6 takes its list of nouns ending in the plural number as a >copulative compound, but in 1.7, it takes a related list of >nouns ending in the plural number as a different kind of >compound. Again, without getting into saa.mkhya, and without >getting into the possible identity of patanjali, why so? Each compound may be re-constructed in many different ways without any violations of grammar. Usually, I considered several of them and selected one that made most sense in the context of the previous sUtras. It's quite possible to make a different choice and, thus, different meaning. Choices I made are fitting each other pretty well (that's very subjective!) and result in statements that 1. are practical in nature, not metaphisical 2. allow experimental verification (this is not subjective at all!) Hope there is more clarity and best reagrds, Dmitri. From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Feb 11 21:54:41 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 16:54:41 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067309.23782.10246069988611385454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dmitri has written as follows: >verecundiam did you mean verrecundiam? Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Real Programmers don't play tennis, or any other sport that requires you to change clothes. Mountain climbing is OK, and real programmers wear their climbing boots to work in case a mountain should suddenly spring up in the middle of the machine room. From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Sun Feb 11 17:54:20 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 17:54:20 +0000 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067305.23782.3080143901092915390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Kengo Harimoto, I'd be glad to discuss any type of arguments, especially grammatical ones, but not - ad hominem - ad populum - ad verecundiam - ad ignorantiam types. Best wishes, Dmitri. From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 11 23:03:48 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 18:03:48 -0500 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067311.23782.8804771086161203628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yashwant and Indology List: It is not clear from the scriptures what varn.a the Buddha was originally from, so one cannot state such a thing with certainty. Also, from what sources are you getting the information that the previous Buddhas were Brahmin or Ksatriya? In addition, where are getting the information that the immediate disciples and leaders of the early Buddhist communities were Brahmin? According to R. Gombrich's "Theravada Buddhism" (pp. 55-56), there were people of all castes in the community. Gombrich quotes a study done on a 5th cent. commentary to the Theragatha and Therigatha hymns, in which it is clear that the majority of the disciples were Brahmin, but certainly far from all. Are you concluding, from this study, that the most of the leaders were Brahmin? This connection is not made, as far as I know, in Gombrich. Lynken Ghose >From: Yashwant Malaiya >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: dvija varNa >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:40:06 +0000 > >Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > >N. Chandran wrote: > >>> So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers > >>> if he wasn't a dvija. > > > >S. Hodge wrote: > >>Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. > >>You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya > >>earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? > > > >For all the three var.nas, except the Shudras, "dvija" (twice-born) is > >applied. A good study of how this works in N. India: > >Gautama Buddha (Shakyamuni) was a Shakya, who were a branch of >Ikshavakus, thus (always) a Kshatriya. The previous Buddhas were >either Brahmin or Khatriyas. Most of the immediate disciples of Gautam >Buddha were Brahmin, as were a majority of the leaders of the >Indian Buddhist Sangha. > >While Dvija really means any of the three higher varnas, since they can >wear the upavita, if is sometimes used only for the Brahmins. > >Other than Brahmins, very few other communities in Indian have >traditionally worn the sacred the thread. By the traditional >brahmaical view, most of the so-called "upper castes" are sachchhUdra. >It is practically impossible to show with absolute certainty >that a supposed Vaishya or Kshatriya community was Vaishya or Kshatriya >in antiquity (That is why some scholars have declared in the past that >the two middle varnas have ceased to exist). It is also true for several >Brahmin communities. Thus at the present time, the existence of four >distinct varnas is a myth. > >Mahatma Gandhi combined the attributes all four varnas. Born a "vaishya", >he defined dharma like a rishi, commanded a nation like a kshatriya, and >cleaned toilets like a shudra. Perfectly acceptable. Varnas are no longer >separated. (Gandhi's son married daughter of a very brahmanical brahmin, >and it hasn't been considered to be pratiloma.) > >Yashwant _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sun Feb 11 18:10:07 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 18:10:07 +0000 Subject: SV: Mystics and Missionaries Message-ID: <161227067307.23782.2209222937935877858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:24:11 +0100, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: >Shrinivas Tilak [SMTP:shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 10. februar 2001 16:19: >> The recent flurry of exchanges between Aditya Mishra and Stephen >Hodge >> points to a deeper issue that I think warrants further discussion--the >> varying ways and patterns in which mysticism is connected with organized >> religion. Mystics affiliated with a given religion, for instance, may be >> recruited to attract newcomers and to "soften up" their initial >resistance. >> Missionaries then take over and complete the job of formal conversion. >> S.Tilak > >Isn't this a rather "conspiratorial" view of mysticism? As far as I can >see, most religions have their mystics, This discussion puts mysticism only in a religious context. There can also be "secular" mysticism. Concepts like race, blood, language, history , etc can take the place of zazen or other ultimate objects of mystical cintemplation. Hitler was also a mystic with race as the ultimate good . From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 12 02:52:11 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 01 21:52:11 -0500 Subject: New interpretation of Yoga Suutra Message-ID: <161227067313.23782.346567192602689734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan >Please don't take this badly; I wish you well. All comments accepted, no questions asked :-) That was lot of fun. >I'm unable to find indrA and bRhaspatI where you find them. Before I wind up my argument (or whatever is left of it, if any), I think Prof Dmtri rightly guessed that vRttis in I.6 may be in the temporal order in an act of perception. No idea if he was the first to hazard this speculation. In my opinion the order is five fold sAma.. the poet in me can't resist.. pramANo hiGkAro, viparyayaH prastAvaH.. I'll stop it there. indra, bRhaspati and the whole gang will surely hang around any message board where I.6 is posted (just IMO). Even chanting is not needed. No more on this topic, it is a promise, LOL. We are talking different languages.. Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 12 03:04:06 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 03:04:06 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067315.23782.5260210831093726659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Dmitri, I don't want to fully critique your 200+ page essay, for want of time and space. A few comments will do - 1. v.rttis = transformations, but of what? v.rttis beginning with citta implies that citta is itself the first transformation. Again, of what? Is there some preexisting thing that transforms into the citta etc., or does the citta come into being anew? 2. Does not your phrase "distortion of sensation" imply "cittasya v.rtti", thereby citta(gen)-v.rtti? Similary in your usage of the phrase "cittav.rtti called sm.rti" ... 3. Agama - like it or not, south of the Himalayas, "valid testimony" is an important pramA.na. I think if you look a little west, you will again find importance being given to it, in a different way perhaps. Given that the yogasUtra was born in and was transmitted in the country south of the Himalayas, why downgrade Agama, going by Pyrrho, if not Descartes? Your reinterpretation may well end up in the camps of Pyrrhus of Epirus, rather than Pyrrho of Elis. 4. It may or may not be fine methodologically, to assume that YS is one thing and the bhA.sya of vyAsa is a completely different thing. Objections raised by those who know something about the history of the school and its mss. should be taken seriously. I think Kengo is one, as he has worked on a critical edition of one of the commentaries. He mentioned this earlier on this list. Additionally, on what basis do you separate samAdhipAda from the latter three pAdas? E.g., sattva-puru.sa-anyatA-khyAti, prasa.mkhyaana and dharmamegha occur in the later pAdas. The bhA.sya brings up all these terms, under its discussion of citta-v.rtti-nirodha in YS 1.2 itself. Can you show that this explanation, using concepts from within YS itself, is unsound? Have you seen mss. containing only the samAdhipAda and none of the other three pAdas? All this boils down to the following. Is your project a new way of thinking about Yoga itself, or is it a new interpretation of a specific text named patanjali's yogasUtra? If the former, you have greater scope. If the latter, questions pertaining to the text and its transmission have to be discussed carefully, before proceeding with reinterpretation. Best wishes, Vidyasankar From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Mon Feb 12 13:06:14 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 08:06:14 -0500 Subject: mostruosit=?ISO-8859-1?B?4A==?= - horrible! Message-ID: <161227067326.23782.8501208509549368081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This clears up one mystery for me (namely, why so many of the angry messages on the bonsaikitten.com maildrop are in Italian). Those of you confused by this message (which, like mine, is of course wholly inappropriate for this list) should read this Wired article: "http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,41733,00.html" (of which a copy is appended). Saluti pederasti, Rohan. FBI Goes After Bonsaikitten.com by Declan McCullagh 10:10 a.m. Feb. 9, 2001 PST WASHINGTON -- A website devoted to squishing kittens into Mason jars is one of two things: A trenchant parody designed to provoke, or a nefarious kitty-mutilation scheme that must be stopped, and probably outlawed. Count the FBI among the many visitors to bonsaikitten.com who are anything but amused at the descriptions of how to use muscle relaxant, feeding tubes and Klein bottles to shape a perfect Bonsai Cat. FBI agents in the Boston field office have launched an investigation into the site. They also have served MIT with a grand jury subpoena asking for "any and all subscriber information" about the site, which was initially hosted in a campus dormitory but has since moved to a commercial provider. MIT said in a letter to bonsaikitten.com's pseudonymous webmaster, a graduate student using the alias Dr. Michael Wong Chang, that it will wait until Sunday to turn over records that would identify him by name. "I was surprised," Chang said. "I really thought that the FBI had better things to do. That's your tax dollars at work." Bonsaikitten.com is, of course, a joke devised by prankster MIT students -- who else would talk about "rectilinear kittens?" -- to provoke owners of kittens, an adorably fuzzy topic that's usually beyond parody. Bonsaikitten.com offers to sell visitors a custom-shaped kitten -- the site says "typical wait time for a fully shaped Bonsai Kitten is 3 to 4 months" -- but the site does not list prices or a mailing address for where to send money orders. It does, however, occasionally receive requests for more information. It also has sparked tens of thousands of hate-mail messages, anti-Bonsai Kitten groups on Yahoo, and even a blistering denunciation from the venerable Humane Society of the United States. For the site's fans, watching e-mail nastygrams arrive has become a kind of spectator sport: There's even a mailing list that lets bonsaikitten.com aficionados view any mail sent to the site's webmaster. A typical message: "This site is horrible! You should go in a mental hospital! You son of a bitch! I'll do my best to shut down this site and your disgusting hobby!" A gun-toting investigator from the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals reportedly stopped by campus and quizzed MIT network administrators about the intent of the site. Under state law, MSPCA investigators are deputized as "special state police officers" with investigation and arrest abilities. The combined efforts of animal rights proponents, including such ardent activists as the closed-subscription "meowmies" group, seem to have prompted the FBI to launch its investigation. "Why are they doing this?" asks Harvey Silverglate, a prominent Boston criminal defense attorney. "I think the answer is that political correctness has infected the FBI." "The kind of fanatical end of the spectrum animal protection movement has affected them," says Silverglate, a partner at Silverglate and Good. "They want to be the good guys. They massively run rampant over Americans' liberties but they want to be seen as nice fuzzy guys who want to protect kittens." Silverglate predicts that when the FBI realizes bonsaikitten.com is not serious, the bureau will quietly abandon its investigation. Ellen Kearns, an FBI agent in the bureau's Lakeville, Massachusetts office who is involved in the investigation, could not be reached for comment. Nadine Pellegrini, the assistant U.S. Attorney who signed the subpoena, refused to discuss the investigation. "I'm making no comment," Pellegrini said. The subpoena does not discuss what law the bonsaikitten.com operators allegedly violated. But Pellegrini hinted that it was based on a relatively recent federal statute: "I would assume there's a case, if there's a law, but I'm not making any comment." In December 1999, President Clinton signed a law that makes it a federal felony to possess "a depiction of animal cruelty" with the intent to distribute across state lines -- such as on the Internet. During a floor debate, Rep. Elton Gallegly (R-Calif.) claimed that "sick criminals are taking advantage of the loopholes in the local law and the lack of federal law on animal cruelty videos." The law, which observers at the time said probably violated the First Amendment, only applies to images, videos, and sound recordings that are distributed "for commercial gain" -- and bonsaikitten.com's tongue-in-cheek descriptions of mail-order cats in bottles appears to have given the FBI sufficient justification for an investigation. The national Humane Society, based in Washington, applauded the FBI's efforts. "If the FBI is looking into this, that's great," said spokeswoman Karen Allanach. "Anything to discourage animal cruelty would be very helpful. Allanach said she's not sure if the site is a parody -- and even if it isn't, it should be taken offline because it could encourage people to experiment on their own household pets. "It's totally promoting animal cruelty," Allanach said. "They consider it a sick joke. People will take it seriously. Animal cruelty is not funny. Animal torture is not funny. We would like bonsaikitten.com to be removed permanently." When asked whether someone has the First Amendment right to advocate for animal cruelty, Allanach replied: "That's a great question. That's at the heart of a lot of debate." Jered Floyd, a recent MIT graduate, says animal rights activists -- who have successfully pressured hosting services to ban bonsaikitten.com until rotten.com offered it server space -- don't have a sense of humor. "The First Amendment protects all speech, no matter how offensive some people may find it," Floyd says. "The site is clearly a humorous endeavor. The fact that a number of people seem to have very little sense of humor isn't relevant." A letter dated Feb. 1 from MIT lawyer Jeff Swope says that federal law requires the university to notify students when it receives subpoenas for information about them. It says that "pursuant to that legal process, MIT will produce such information, no earlier than Feb. 11, 2001." Copyright ? 2001 Wired Digital Inc., a Lycos Network site. All rights reserved. From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Mon Feb 12 08:31:25 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 08:31:25 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067317.23782.15035028861146303109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lynken Ghose comments: >In addition, where are getting the information that the immediate disciples >and leaders of the early Buddhist communities were Brahmin? >According to R. Gombrich's "Theravada Buddhism" (pp. 55-56), there were >people of all castes in the community. > >Gombrich quotes a study done on a 5th cent. commentary to the Theragatha and >Therigatha hymns, in which it is clear that the majority of the disciples >were Brahmin, but certainly far from all. Are you concluding, from this >study, that the most of the leaders were Brahmin? This connection is not >made, as far as I know, in Gombrich. The most numerous single var.na of those whose var.na identified is the brahmin, but we are not told the origins of many disciples. Obviously, those of whom nothing is said are more likely to be of a lower class. More to the point, this is all data from eight or nine hundred years later. To analyse it as 'scientific' information is absurd. Probably some of the information about well-known figures is correct, but as a whole it is likely to be part of the natural evolution of traditions. It cannot be used to reconstruct the social composition of early Buddhism. As regards Buddhas, of course, the claim that some were brahmins and some khattiyas is derived from the Mahaapadaana-suttanta (D II 2f.). Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Mon Feb 12 12:19:17 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 12:19:17 +0000 Subject: Late Victorian Holocausts Message-ID: <161227067321.23782.8548616869749501113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two articles from the Observer, the first an article by Mike Davis, a SUNY, Stony Brook historian : http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,436495,00.html about the deadly effect of the British Raj on India and a review of Mike Davis's book "Late Victorian Holocausts : El Ni?o, Famines and the Making of the Third World" http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,436292,00.html about the deadly effects of European colonialism, may be of interest. To quote from the review : "Late Victorian Holocausts will redefine the way we think about the European colonial project. After reading this, I defy even the most ardent nationalist to feel proud of the so-called 'achievements' of empire." -Arun Gupta From ghezziem at TIN.IT Mon Feb 12 13:43:27 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 13:43:27 +0000 Subject: mostruosit=?ISO-8859-1?B?4A==?= - horrible! Message-ID: <161227067323.23782.16893364602704805519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Cari amici miei e di Emilio, vi prego di leggere accuratamente questa circolare giuntami tramite la mailing list di ITALINDIA,la nota prestigiosa associazione di studi indologici alla quale appartengo. Grazie. Dearest friend of Daniela Rossella and of Emilio Ghezzi, please read the following e-mails what ITALINDIA, a famous Italian Indological Association, has sent to me. Thanks (sorry, it is in Italian! But You can visit the cited American site). ***************************************************** Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it **************************************************** Message: 1 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:25:40 -0000 From: "Michelguglielmo Torri" Subject: ITALINDIA 2001- senza numerazione (mostri e gattini) I: VI PREGO LEGGETE E INOLTRATE Cari amici, faccio circolare questo messaggio - con i cui sentimenti simpatizzo in modo totale - messaggio che ho ricevuto da alcuni amici, fra cui la nostra socia Chiara Albero. Fatelo circolare anche voi. Cordialmente. Michelguglielmo Torri ---------- Vi assicuro: ? terribilmente vero!!!!! Inoltrate a tutti quelli che conoscete, nella speranza che arrivi a qualche hacker in grado di farli saltare per aria. www.bonsaikitten.com e' un sito infame, dove un'organizzazione commercia gattini veri, VIVI, ridotti a bonsai da mettere sui mobili. E' una notizia apparsa oggi sulla prima pagina del Messaggero: questi gattini vengono fin da piccoli costretti in vasi e/o bottiglie di vetro di varia forma; crescendo il gattino assume la forma del contenitore rimanendo deformato. Viene narcotizzato per farlo stare buono, viene nutrito con delle flebo, le feci o l'urina vengono evacuate con dei tubicini infilati nel corpo. E' UN ORRORE !!! Il giornalista del Messaggero ha volutamente messo la url del sito affinche il popolo della rete faccia qualcosa; egli termina l'articolo dicendo "Mondo cane. Fateli sparire." E' questo quello che vi chiedo. Bombardiamo il sito, provochiamo un pesantissimo Denial of Service, mettiamo down anche il Provider che ospita il sito, violiamo il sito, facciamo qualsiasi cosa ma facciamola. [This message contained attachments] ----- Original Message ----- From: Flabor Vindex To: m.torri at flashnet.it Sent: gioved? 8 febbraio 2001 13.53 Subject: Da Flavio Bortolozzo, per fortuna ? uno scherzo di infimo gusto In merito al caso dei gattini-bonsai ho ricevuto questo messaggio di risposta dalla LAV (Lega Anti Vivisezione) di Roma. Cari amici, grazie per aver segnalato la presenza del sito www.bonsaikitten.com Questo sito ? apparso per la prima volta verso la fine del mese di dicembre u.s. ed ha subito scatenato le ire degli animalisti di tutto il mondo, subissando noi come LAV ed alre associazioni internazionali, di messaggi di protesta. Sono dunque partite le verifiche del caso, ed ? stato scoperto essere un sito ospitato dall'Istituto per la Tecnologia dell'Universit? del Massachusetts (MIT). Grazie all'interessamento del Responabile del MIT Network abbiamo scoperto che i dati relativi alla persona che ha registrato il dominio, un certo Sig. Michael WONG di New York, sono falsi. Il creatore del sito ? invece uno studente del MIT che ha ideato questo spazio per scherzo, un gioco fra amici. Quando si ? reso conto dell'attenzione suscitata, confermata anche dalla moltitudine di email di protesta inviategli da cittadini di tutto il mondo, ha deciso di rivendicare (anche legalmente) la propria libert? di espressione mantenendo il sito attivo senza prestare attenzione alle diverse richieste di oscuramento. Nonostante queste rivendicazioni e grazie alla pressione esercitata, i responsabili del MIT il 22 dicembre scorso hanno revocato la concessione dello spazio. Nei giorni scorsi, un nuovo allarme ? stato lanciato dalle pagine di uno dei principali quotidiani italiani ed ? tornato il fermento. Rispetto all'ipotesi di maltrattamento, un'associazione animalista locale, sta verificando che nessun animale abbia mai subito un simile trattamento, lo stesso studente ha dichiarato d'aver creato le foto del sito (gatto nel barattolo) con l'ausilio di un programma di computer grafica. E' importante che nessuno di voi invii nuovi messaggi di protesta perch? questa confermata attenzione alimenterebbe solo le manie di protagonismo del nostro studentello. Maggiore sar? l'attenzione prestata a questa faccenda e minore sar? la disponibilit? ad un dialogo costruttivo che conduca alla rimozione definitiva del sito incriminato. In seguito all'ultimo oscuramento, da qualche giorno, sembra aver trovato un nuovo server a cui appoggiarsi il quale non ? disposto a dare seguito alle proteste di animalisti e non. Potrete seguire l'evoluzione della situazione collegandovi al sito: http://www.hsus.org/programs/companion/bonsai_kitten.html realizzato dalla Humane Society degli Stati Uniti, proprio per dare risposte alle tante persone che da diverse parti del mondo, hanno manifestato il proprio sdegno. Saluti animalisti Ivan Miori LAV Action Team _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Mon Feb 12 14:54:02 2001 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 14:54:02 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 7 Feb 2001 to 8 Feb 2001 (#2001-40) Message-ID: <161227067328.23782.1748923194037638935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidyasankar, Here are some answers to your questions. >1. v.rttis = transformations, but of what? v.rttis beginning with > citta implies that citta is itself the first transformation. > Again, of what? Is there some preexisting thing that transforms > into the citta etc., or does the citta come into being anew? > >2. Does not your phrase "distortion of sensation" imply "cittasya > v.rtti", thereby thereby citta(gen)-v.rtti? Similary in your usage of > the phrase "cittav.rtti called sm.rti" ... One answer to both questions. Citta come into being anew each time. Now, what v.rttis are transformation of? The general picture here is this: There are several entities here. First is a sensation, or, more precisely, the stimulation of sense organs which is attended to. Last entity is a percept, or gestalt -- term is different in different traditions of research of perception. There might be several entities in-between them. There are two classes of transformations. First, is a change of an entity itself, second is a change of entity into another entity. Examples: change of sensation that does not produce another entity is an integration of stimulus with time. This integration is present when you look at a movie. Say, you look at a movie of falling ball. Actually there are 30 static pictures in a second, but the stimuli are integrated into one stimulus -- that of a falling ball. Other change of an entity without producing another entity might be demostrated by dependence of optical illusions from time. Now, why it is assumed that there are several entities and not a single one that changes as the process of perception proceeds? Because, sometimes it is possible to recollect both original sensation and the percept it produced. The recollected sensation might produce a new percept different from the first one. This is an experimental fact. The transformation of entity in itself would be expressed with citta(gen.)-v.rtti Transformation from sensation to the next entity would be expressed with citta(abl.)-v.rtti Since there are actually two classes of transformations involved why did I choose citta(abl.)-v.rtti in I.2? Because this choice leaves room for the transformations of citta(gen.) class while the other choice would be more restrictive by excluding inter-entity changes. In cases like this I presumed that Patanjali's choice was the most accurate and exact of all available alternatives. Sometimes I refer to one type of transformation, sometimes to the other one. That is the source of confusion. >3. Agama - like it or not, south of the Himalayas, "valid testimony" > is an important pramA.na. I think if you look a little west, you > will again find importance being given to it, in a different way > perhaps. Given that the yogasUtra was born in and was transmitted > in the country south of the Himalayas, why downgrade Agama, going > by Pyrrho, if not Descartes? It is not a downgrade but the other way around -- upgrade. My opinion is that the original meaning of YS (part of Agama too!) is more sophisticated and accurate than the commentaries to it composed later. >Your reinterpretation may well end >up in the camps of Pyrrhus of Epirus, rather than Pyrrho of Elis. No danger of that. The techniques described are useful, I'd say, very useful, so in the worst case, there are these techniques. >Objections raised by those who know something about the >history of the school and its mss. should be taken seriously. >I think Kengo is one, as he has worked on a critical edition of >one of the commentaries. He mentioned this earlier on this list. To get serious objections is the goal of my posting on the Indology. So far, Mr. Harimoto keeps saying that I am illiterate and criticise my rendering without reading it - the remark on ablative required by anya shows it, since I use meaning of anya that is not "different". I do hope for criticism like "here and there is research that indicates you are wrong", or "there is contradicition here and there" and not attacks ad hominem. >Can you show that this explanation, using concepts from within YS itself,is >unsound? That is an interesting question. I do have several objections against VyAsa point of view. On many occasions, it is counter-factual, on others it is plain vague, and on others it is self-contradicting. But there are two disctinct topics: subject of "cittav.tti nirodha" and history of YS interpretations - what this or that commentator thought about it. I am mostly interested in in subject matter, not in the history. So, excuse me, if I'll concentrate on YS itself, not on the history of commentaries to it. Best regards, Dmitri. From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 12 20:27:27 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 15:27:27 -0500 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067332.23782.13621647972516588703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indology List: In response to L. Cousins - I don't think that I would use the word "absurd" to categorize Gombrich's or anyone's attempt to capture the composition of the early sangha. It is an attempt but admittedly not one that is faultless. I'm not sure that I was labelling it "scientific", nor does Gombrich in his study. Thanks for the information on the Digha Nikaya as the source for the information about previous Buddhas. I didn't know that; however, I could have done without the "of course". Lynken Ghose >From: "L.S.Cousins" >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: dvija varNa >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:31:25 +0000 > >Lynken Ghose comments: > >>In addition, where are getting the information that the immediate >>disciples >>and leaders of the early Buddhist communities were Brahmin? >>According to R. Gombrich's "Theravada Buddhism" (pp. 55-56), there were >>people of all castes in the community. >> >>Gombrich quotes a study done on a 5th cent. commentary to the Theragatha >>and >>Therigatha hymns, in which it is clear that the majority of the disciples >>were Brahmin, but certainly far from all. Are you concluding, from this >>study, that the most of the leaders were Brahmin? This connection is not >>made, as far as I know, in Gombrich. > >The most numerous single var.na of those whose var.na identified is >the brahmin, but we are not told the origins of many disciples. >Obviously, those of whom nothing is said are more likely to be of a >lower class. > >More to the point, this is all data from eight or nine hundred years >later. To analyse it as 'scientific' information is absurd. Probably >some of the information about well-known figures is correct, but as a >whole it is likely to be part of the natural evolution of traditions. >It cannot be used to reconstruct the social composition of early >Buddhism. > >As regards Buddhas, of course, the claim that some were brahmins and >some khattiyas is derived from the Mahaapadaana-suttanta (D II 2f.). > >Lance Cousins > >-- >HEADINGTON, UK > >CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: >selwyn at ntlworld.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From mlbd at VSNL.COM Mon Feb 12 10:02:24 2001 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 15:32:24 +0530 Subject: Vedic Sculpture in Naples Message-ID: <161227067340.23782.14055352004062009288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, The above information was published in the Times of India (19th Feb.2001) Publicity Deptt ================ "A Very Happy New-Year To You" -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Valerie J Roebuck To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Vedic Sculpture in Naples > Dear Mr Jain > > Several of us list members were puzzled by an item on p. 9 of the January > 2001 MLBD newsletter. A description of an exhibition of the "secret > collection" of the National Archaeological Museum, Naples, is captioned > "Vedic Sculpture in Ancient Italy". > > Since the material in this collection is predominantly Roman, we wondered > how the misunderstanding arose. We wondered whether someone had seen the > description of "sexual activity involving gods and goddesses, satyrs, > nymphs and pygmies" and jumped to the conclusion that it must be Indian! > But this still does not explain why it was called "Vedic". > > Yours sincerely > > Dr Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > >Kindly refer your mail written to Indology list on 2nd Feb. referring > >MLBD on account of the above subject. Please let us know the confusion > >you are refering to so that if it is our fault we may rectify or else > >give you clarification. Sincerely, Rajeev Jain > From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Feb 12 11:09:39 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 16:39:39 +0530 Subject: The Farce that is HINDI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067319.23782.17386806669147920920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Raveen Satkurunathan wrote: > South Slavic Serbo-Croatian is also written in two scripts, Cyrillic for > Serbian and Roman for Croatian. But Hindee is written in a whole four scripts: Perso-Arabic, Devanagari, Kaithi for its Bihari `dialect' and Mahajani for its Rajasthani `dialect'. Now, which other language in the world has a whole 4 scripts ? Perhaps the Sanghvi linguists may wish to explain. Why, even the Mahatma would have a hard time explaining that. Moreover, the term `Serbo-Croation' itself indicates its origin lies in Judeo-Marxist multiculturalism of the Yugoslav era. Such hypotheses aimed at creating a Yugoslav melting-pot failed miserably, and I doubt whether the governments of Serbia and Croatia are now teaching `Serbo-Croatian' in their schools after the bitter civil war. They are no doubt teaching Serbian and Croatian, respectively. The official Sanghi linguists who for the past 50 years have claimed that Kaithi is merely a `derivative' of Devnagari and that Bihari is a dialect of `Hindi' can for themselves how much they can understand of a manuscript written in Kaithi: http://www.library.upenn.edu/etext/sasia/skt-mss/1876/5b.html { Mahagaapatistotra in Kaithi script } Kaithi appears as different from Hindee as Bengali from Hindee. Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > The word "Hindavi" was used by Khusrow, "Hindi" was used by Sharfuddin > Yazdi (1424) ... What about Kabir (1398-?) ... Raidas (1398-1448) ... > Amir Khosrow (1283-... Most of the personages above wrote in Punjabi, Avadhi and Rajasthani. The Muslims used Hindvi to refer to all languages of `Hind', which included South-East Asia. It was a purely geographical definition which had no linguistic basis, being akin to `European' or `Firangi'. Indeed, all languages of `Hind' were included in `Hindawi', including Bengali and Kannadiga. Indeed, when Khosrow et al write in `Hindwi', they merely mean that they are writing in one of the languages of Hind. Stretching Khosrow's geographical term to linguistics to its fullest extent would result in Thai and Malay being all dialects of `Hindi'. Surely, another contradiction for our official linguists. Likewise, many Indians confound all European languages as `Firangi', including Russian, English and French. That does not mean that the French (ie. Franks or the real Firangis) can claim that English or Polish are its dialects. Unfortunately, the official Sanghvi linguists are doing someting similar in the case of Khadi Bolee. But then, such fantasies are only expected of those who believe that the Taj Mahal is actually Tejo Mahalaya. Shailendra Raj Mehta wrote: >Actually, the language that is in real trouble in India...is Urdu. This exactly was the rationale behind the formation of Pakistan. At least the language of the Mughals survives there. Mr. Mehta's statement reveals that, in retrospect, Jinnah was right after all. Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 12 17:53:42 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 17:53:42 +0000 Subject: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067330.23782.3517941428351322421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Raveen wrote: >Is Arundathiyar of Tamil Nadu same as Cakkilliar ? Consider the Online Tamil Lexicon entries: cAlin2i 01 1. woman employed in pronouncing oracles under the influence of a spirit; 2. wife of VasiSTha cAlin2i 03 woman who deals in toddy aruntati * 1. name of the wife of vasis2t2ha, considered a paragon of chastity; 2. the scarcely visible star alcor of the great bear, supposed to be arundhati transformed aruntatIyar cobblers (TLS) The caste of Cakkiliyars calling themselves as aruntatiyar is probably related with their function as drummers and shamans in festivals of ancient Andhra Pradesh. The buffalo sacrifice to goddesses (like Durga) are conducted by their members. Shaman priestesses in Classical Tamil sangam literature are called cAlin2i(=arundhati). Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Sherabx at AOL.COM Mon Feb 12 23:37:29 2001 From: Sherabx at AOL.COM (Sherab Ebin) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 01 18:37:29 -0500 Subject: Indological catalogue 2001 Message-ID: <161227067334.23782.16803813765756813969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear sirs, i would very much like to receive your catalogues-address: j. g. sherab ebin 1325 w. 27th. street apt. 307 minneapolis, Minnesota, 55409, u.s.a. thank you for your consideration- sherab ebin From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 13 00:59:05 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 00:59:05 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067337.23782.6071926910249933632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank L.S.Cousins for his comments. >Lynken Ghose comments: > >According to R. Gombrich's "Theravada Buddhism" (pp. 55-56), there were >people of all castes in the community. I agree. >Gombrich quotes a study done on a 5th cent. commentary to the >Theragatha and Therigatha hymns, in which it is clear that the >majority of the disciples were Brahmin, but certainly far from >all. Are you concluding, from this study, that the most of the >leaders were Brahmin? This connection is not made, as far as I >know, in Gombrich. >?From what I have come across, it seems that a majority of the leaders of the Buddhist Sangha in India were Brahmin. It is possible that some of them were not Brahmin, but somehow they tradition paints them as Brahmin. In any case it is clear that Buddhism did not arise as a protest against the Brahmins, but because Siddhartha attained Bodhi. Many Brahmins supported Buddhism. It is my guess that a large fraction of the students in various Buddhist viharas were Brahmin (Another large fraction, specially in Magadh must have been Kayasthas). The last teacher of Nalanda was supported by a local wealthy brahmin. The brahmins have always belonged to different philosophical schools. Just like a brahmin can be a shaiva, vaishnava, saibaba devotee etc, he can be a Buddhist or Jain. Buddhist texts clearly convey the impression that brahmins were highly regarded (not because they were born so, but because of their learning and conduct). It appears that brahmins did not lose any prestige during the time Buddhism was popular. One notices that by the time Buddhism peaked in India, it was common for gods and princes to be shown wearing an upavita. >More to the point, this is all data from eight or nine hundred years >later. To analyse it as 'scientific' information is absurd. Probably >some of the information about well-known figures is correct, but as a >whole it is likely to be part of the natural evolution of traditions. >It cannot be used to reconstruct the social composition of early >Buddhism. True. But we can easily reject the view that Brahmins and Buddhism were mutually exclusive. Lance Cousins wrote: >As regards Buddhas, of course, the claim that some were brahmins and >some khattiyas is derived from the Mahaapadaana-suttanta (D II 2f.). For some information see: http://209.198.49.230/livres/001-28-bouddhas.htm Yashwant From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 13 01:42:43 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 01:42:43 +0000 Subject: HINDI scripts and dialects Message-ID: <161227067338.23782.14819110463792872705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a view going around that a language should be invariant as if it were carved in stone, and there should be one script associated with it, which should not vary. Fact is that in a natural form, a language varies from region to region. Variation regionally and temporally is gradual. The only way there can be an invariant language when one is artificially created, or when a dialect become a standard and "it's dialects" become more and more like the standard. English, even in England too had dialects and their traces can still be encountered. > But Hindee is written in a whole four scripts: Perso-Arabic, Devanagari, >Kaithi for its Bihari `dialect' and Mahajani for its Rajasthani `dialect'. >Now, which other language in the world has a whole 4 scripts ? If one looks at manuscripts and letters from say 60-80 years ago and older, one can see many more "scripts". The Kaithi manuscript is much more readable that many Hindi business letters from UP or MP from 1930's. Is every writing style a different script? Depends on the definition. All dialects of Hindi (even the standard Khari boli) are dialects. Take away all the dialects, there is nothing left. He says: >>What about Kabir (1398-?) ... Raidas (1398-1448) ... Amir Khosrow (1283- ... > Most of the personages above wrote in Punjabi, Avadhi and Rajasthani. One can see examples of their work on the web. It will very hard for anyone to identify a regional dialect in their work. None of the three wrote in Punjabi or Rajasthani obviusly. Did Kabir write in Avadhi? While an occasional term in his Bijak shows Avadhi influence, the language is not very regional. Sometimes regional dialects can be fairly easily identified, for example in case of Surdas, Mirabai or Baba Nanak. Hindi, because it has absorbed words from many languages, and because it encompasses many diverse dialects, is an extremely expressive language. Yashwant From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Tue Feb 13 07:37:22 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 07:37:22 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067348.23782.11154838795010297781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lynken Ghose, I don't particularly object to the attempt. It is always interesting to see what can be made of something. But I do think the method is absurd. Gombrich cites B.J.Gokhale here. He thinks that the data in the commentaries may be based on earlier sources. It may be, but it is precisely historical information about people that varies the most in our sources. So we have good reason to suppose that such things are added later. It is basic to the understanding of historical processes that very small, imperceptible changes in each generation add up to very large changes over centuries. Any historical method which ignores this is absurd. >I don't think that I would use the word "absurd" to categorize Gombrich's or >anyone's attempt to capture the composition of the early sangha. It is an >attempt but admittedly not one that is faultless. I'm not sure that I was >labelling it "scientific", nor does Gombrich in his study. On the particular issue we can certainly say (on the basis of much earlier sources) that some of the more well-known disciples of the Buddha were brahmins and khattiyas. A few were of much more humble origin. We do not know the social origins of many. This data is compatible with the view that most of the disciples were brahmins and khattiyas. It is also compatible with the view that many of the leaders of the community were brahmins and khattiyas, but the bulk of the community were of 'lower' class origin. In any case, we have no reliable information on the detailed make-up of society at large in this period. Brahmins and khattiyas could have been a very small minority or a much larger percentage of the population. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 13 21:21:24 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 13:21:24 -0800 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067362.23782.7665205473394049722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Y. Mallya wrote: > "Buddhist texts clearly convey the impression > that Brahmins were highly regarded (not because they were born so, but > because of their learning and conduct)". For early Buddhist rejection of Vedas, http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9605&L=indology&P=R5983 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From bprecia at COLMEX.MX Tue Feb 13 19:46:28 2001 From: bprecia at COLMEX.MX (Benjamin Preciado) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 13:46:28 -0600 Subject: Yucatan caste Message-ID: <161227067354.23782.2646977981430433511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Maya did not have any caste system. The New Spain society was divided in castes by the europeans and this system was not taken from indigenous peoples. It was applied all over the territory and not only in Yucatan. It was based on race lines and the europeans had the highest ranking, indigenous peoples, african slaves and all the posible intermarriage descent coming in the lower rankings. The indian revolt of Yucatan in the mid XIX century was called the Caste War because this division of society was still remembered then. Benjamin Preciado -----Mensaje original----- De: N. Ganesan [mailto:naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM] Enviado el: Martes, 13 de Febrero de 2001 10:55 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Asunto: Yucatan caste The Indian caste system and untouchability appear to have an independent comparable system in Japan. In the end, similar peoples came to be cast as untouchables, those who worked on leather and carcasses of dead animals in both the countries. Ancient Japanese notions of Sacred power called "imi" and purity/pollution concepts have something similar in Indian society also. What about caste among the Mayas in Yucatan? Do they have Purity-Pollution polarities as in Indian caste? Since Mayas are well known practicioners of human sacrifice, where are the animal and human scarificers situated in the Yucatan Mayan society? At the top or bottom of the hierarchy? Thanks, N. Ganesan ------------ Reed, Nelson. The caste war of Yucatan, Stanford University Press, 1964. Rugeley, Terry, Yucatan's Maya peasantry and the origins of the Caste War, University of Texas Press, 1996. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 13 20:36:01 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 15:36:01 -0500 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067356.23782.3549434651220548394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Yashwant Malaiya's comments - You state that "Buddhism did not arise as a protest against the Brahmins but because Siddhartha attained bodhi." It may well be true that the Buddha's main goal was not to one of protest against the Brahmins; however, the Vaaset.t.ha Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaaya and the Dhammapada etc. clearly state that the Buddha did not believe that one should be called a Brahmin by birth but by conduct. I am quoting B. Nanamoli's translation (Vaaset.t.ha Sutta): "One is not a brahmin by birth Nor by birth a non-brahmin. By action is one a brahmin, By action is one a non brahmin." Also, from the Dhammapada (385, Ross and Carter trans.) For whom the farther shore or the nearer shore Or both does not exist, Who is free of distress, unyoked That one I call a braahman.a You also state the following: "Buddhist texts clearly convey the impression that Brahmins were highly regarded (not because they were born so, but because of their learning and conduct)". The texts I have read merely state that someone should only be called a Brahmin if they are of good conduct. This is a slightly different statement that what you have said above, unless you are referring to other types of statements than the ones I have quoted above. You seem to be saying that the Buddha believed in the idea of Brahmin by birth but did not respect them because of this, but rather, because of their learning and conduct. In contrast, based on the scriptures I have quoted above, I would argue that the Buddha (as quoted in the Pali Canon) did not accept the caste system at all, as the caste system is something you are born into. Lynken Ghose >From: Yashwant Malaiya >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: dvija varNa >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:59:05 +0000 > >I thank L.S.Cousins for his comments. > > >Lynken Ghose comments: > > > >According to R. Gombrich's "Theravada Buddhism" (pp. 55-56), there were > >people of all castes in the community. > >I agree. > > >Gombrich quotes a study done on a 5th cent. commentary to the > >Theragatha and Therigatha hymns, in which it is clear that the > >majority of the disciples were Brahmin, but certainly far from > >all. Are you concluding, from this study, that the most of the > >leaders were Brahmin? This connection is not made, as far as I > >know, in Gombrich. > >From what I have come across, it seems that a majority of the >leaders of the Buddhist Sangha in India were Brahmin. It is >possible that some of them were not Brahmin, but somehow they >tradition paints them as Brahmin. In any case it is clear that >Buddhism did not arise as a protest against the Brahmins, but >because Siddhartha attained Bodhi. Many Brahmins supported >Buddhism. It is my guess that a large fraction of the students >in various Buddhist viharas were Brahmin (Another large fraction, >specially in Magadh must have been Kayasthas). The last teacher >of Nalanda was supported by a local wealthy brahmin. > >The brahmins have always belonged to different philosophical >schools. Just like a brahmin can be a shaiva, vaishnava, saibaba >devotee etc, he can be a Buddhist or Jain. > >Buddhist texts clearly convey the impression that brahmins were >highly regarded (not because they were born so, but because of >their learning and conduct). It appears that brahmins did not >lose any prestige during the time Buddhism was popular. One >notices that by the time Buddhism peaked in India, it was common >for gods and princes to be shown wearing an upavita. > > >More to the point, this is all data from eight or nine hundred years > >later. To analyse it as 'scientific' information is absurd. Probably > >some of the information about well-known figures is correct, but as a > >whole it is likely to be part of the natural evolution of traditions. > >It cannot be used to reconstruct the social composition of early > >Buddhism. > >True. But we can easily reject the view that Brahmins and Buddhism >were mutually exclusive. > >Lance Cousins wrote: > >As regards Buddhas, of course, the claim that some were brahmins and > >some khattiyas is derived from the Mahaapadaana-suttanta (D II 2f.). > >For some information see: >http://209.198.49.230/livres/001-28-bouddhas.htm > >Yashwant _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Tue Feb 13 15:37:35 2001 From: mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Shailendra Raj Mehta) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 15:37:35 +0000 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067342.23782.16437656454846788504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: << But Hindee is written in a whole four scripts: Perso-Arabic, Devanagari, Kaithi for its Bihari `dialect' and Mahajani for its Rajasthani `dialect'. Now, which other language in the world has a whole 4 scripts ? Perhaps the Sanghvi linguists may wish to explain. Why, even the Mahatma would have a hard time explaining that. >> Actually I answered that in a previous post. But let me do so again. Sanskrit has been written in more than 4 scripts. At least a dozen. Perhaps more. Does that make Sanskrit a farce? You continue the dialogue: Malaiya: >> The word "Hindavi" was used by Khusrow, "Hindi" was used by Sharfuddin >> Yazdi (1424) ... What about Kabir (1398-?) ... Raidas (1398-1448) ... >> Amir Khosrow (1283-... Abbas: >Most of the personages above wrote in Punjabi, Avadhi and Rajasthani. If so, Samar, then you set up such an impossibly high standard for the definition of a language that, all dialects too become, in your definition, separate languages. Khusro, Kabir, Raidas are completely comprehensible to modern speakers of Hindi, and are at least as close to modern Hindi as Shakespeare's English is to modern English. Did Shakespeare not write in English? Would you argue that "Elizabethan" was a separate language? Shailendra Raj Mehta wrote: >Actually, the language that is in real trouble in India...is Urdu. Samar wrote: >>This exactly was the rationale behind the formation of Pakistan. At least the language of the Mughals survives there. Mr. Mehta's statement reveals that, in retrospect, Jinnah was right after all.>> Shailendra: I said nothing of the sort. If you would like to believe it, that it is your prerogative. Oh, Urdu survives in India all right. It is just that Gulzar, Javed Akhtar and others sell more copies of their poetry in the Devanagari script than in the Arabic script. In fact I am not even sure that they publish in Arabic script anymore. For example, was Javed Akhtar's recent collection, "Tarkash", published in the Arabic script? Samar, you obviously feel passionately about many things, Urdu among them. But I daresay, a cool level headed analysis of the issues might help. Linguistic name calling, (calling Hindi, Hindee, or a farce, just because some English pamphleteer did so) is neither accurate nor justified. Shailendra Raj Mehta. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 13 16:55:17 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 16:55:17 +0000 Subject: Yucatan caste Message-ID: <161227067344.23782.12720093995878341054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Indian caste system and untouchability appear to have an independent comparable system in Japan. In the end, similar peoples came to be cast as untouchables, those who worked on leather and carcasses of dead animals in both the countries. Ancient Japanese notions of Sacred power called "imi" and purity/pollution concepts have something similar in Indian society also. What about caste among the Mayas in Yucatan? Do they have Purity-Pollution polarities as in Indian caste? Since Mayas are well known practicioners of human sacrifice, where are the animal and human scarificers situated in the Yucatan Mayan society? At the top or bottom of the hierarchy? Thanks, N. Ganesan ------------ Reed, Nelson. The caste war of Yucatan, Stanford University Press, 1964. Rugeley, Terry, Yucatan's Maya peasantry and the origins of the Caste War, University of Texas Press, 1996. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 13 17:35:42 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 17:35:42 +0000 Subject: Langauge of the Mughals (Hindi) Message-ID: <161227067346.23782.13557526612536483787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About language of the Mughals: >Samar wrote: > >>This exactly was the rationale behind the formation of Pakistan. At least >the language of the Mughals survives there. Mr. Mehta's statement reveals >that, in retrospect, Jinnah was right after all.>> The court language of the Moghuls was always farsi, right to the end. The family language of the Moghuls was Turkic. Many in Pakistan question use of Urdu as the national language, and suggest the Arabic or Farsi be the national language there. The last emperor did compose verses in Urdu, but Urdu never had any official position during the Moghul rule. Some Moghul courtiers supported Hindi poets and composed Hindi poetry themselves . Abdur Rahim Khankhana was the son of Turkmen mentor of Mughul emperor Akbar - Bairam Khan. Yashwant From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Feb 13 23:00:27 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 18:00:27 -0500 Subject: The Farce that is URDU Message-ID: <161227067366.23782.5499566462713217440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But Hindee is written in a whole four scripts: Perso-Arabic, Devanagari, Kaithi for its Bihari `dialect' and Mahajani for its Rajasthani `dialect'. Now, which other language in the world has a whole 4 scripts ? The official Sanghi linguists who for the past 50 years have claimed that Kaithi is merely a `derivative' of Devnagari and that Bihari is a dialect of `Hindi' can for themselves how much they can understand of a manuscript written in Kaithi: ********************** You dont need liguists to claim such things. The different scripts are mainly a change of font. Given a few days a speaker could read kaithi and devnagari with equal ease. I started reading bengali in 2 days with no formal training in the language, never having read the script before. Since I could speak the language I guessed half the words at first. My gujarati friend has the disavantage of being a non speaker but she can still read at a slow pace. frequent look up to the alphabet is needed at times. But it will only be a few days before she picks up speed. So leave alone hindi all indian languages have a very standard script system. Sindhi was also written using a brahmi based scripts like khojki. The specially modified arabic script for sindhi was designed later. RB From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 13 23:34:27 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 18:34:27 -0500 Subject: learning scripts (Was: the farce that is Urdu) Message-ID: <161227067368.23782.15541318486348330407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajarshi Banerjee said: <> I think people experience radically different degrees of difficulty in learning new scripts, even if they are based on the same structural principles. For instance, one could by the same principle as Banerjee implies call Greek and Cyrillic "changes of font" from the Latin script. There are of course many alphabets based on the Arabic script but in general the difference in "style" or "calligraphy" or "font" between these is less than that between the various modern scripts derived from Brahmi. I have repeatedly learned other Brahmic scripts than Nagari but the only one I can read easily without learning over again each time is Gujarati. The computer scientist and philosopher Douglas Hofstadter discusses the question of what is the "essence" or "minimum" of a letter in an alphabet in one of his books, I forget which. Some empirical or even just anecdotal research on this might be quite interesting, and also pertinent to language teaching and language policy. Indians may find it easier to learn multiple scripts than some others because they so often learn two or more scripts from nursery school. E.g. I have Kashmiri friends whose children learn English, Urdu, and Hindi and the corresponding scripts from that early age. I imagine there are few South Asians who are literate at all nowadays who don't know the Latin alphabet, whether or not they know English. I know Indians of humble station who have had no formal training in English who can read signs and very brief notes. I notice that when I tell people my main foreign language is Sanskrit tthey frequently ask questions that imply the script (about which they know nothing) must be a major difficulty. By the way, I would suspect that Khojki was developed by and for Hindus, in accord with David Dirringer's principle "Language follows religion." Frequently the script that is used for a sacred language is then adopted and adapted for a secular one. E.g. some Syrian Christians, particularly I believe the clergy, used the Syriac alphabet for Malayalam until some time in the last century, because they learned Syriac first to take part in the liturgy. Parallels are numberless in other places. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Tue Feb 13 23:55:11 2001 From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart Sarbacker) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 18:55:11 -0500 Subject: samApatti Message-ID: <161227067371.23782.1526341919760623869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Scholars, It was recently suggested to me that the term samApatti which is used in the context of the YogasUtra is also used (in a different sense?) in the context of "kingship." I'm wondering if anyone here has seen such a usage (in the kingship context) and could recommend relevant source materials to look at to explore this further. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Best Wishes, Stuart From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 13 21:05:56 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 21:05:56 +0000 Subject: Pore caste in Nepal Message-ID: <161227067360.23782.16828140641299956916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "During the cosmogonic New Year festival of Bisket jAtrA at Bhaktapur, Bhairava is erected as the linga in the form of the cross-shaped pole .... On the last day of the year (Caitra masant), a buffalo is sacrificed at the pITha of Bhadra-Kali and the Untouchables (Pore) bring its head up to the central Taumadhi square ..." (p.184, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees, 1989). Ethnographers record buffalo sacrices to village goddesses done by ex-untouchables in South India, and scholars usually connect the tamil term, pulaiyar 'outcaste' with meat, blood. TuLu "pole" (menstrual blood); Tamil pulAl/pulavu 'meat'. OTL entry: pulavu 1. dislike, abhorrence; 2. flesh, raw meat, fish; 3. smell of flesh or fish; 4. blood; English words pilaf/pulao, though wrongly assigned to Persian origin, appear to be from Dravidian. Sangam texts, for example, talk of rice mixed with meat ('pulavu') several centuries before. Is the caste name Pore in Nepal related with say, Poleya in Karnataka, or Pulaya in Kerala? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Feb 14 02:48:41 2001 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 21:48:41 -0500 Subject: VyAkaraNa question: contextual factors in determining meaning Message-ID: <161227067358.23782.11419144214150928770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list-members, I would like to know whether there exist any detailed studies of contextual factors that assist in the disambiguation of meaning, as posited by VaiAkaraNas and MImAMsakas. I am referring to such factors as "context" (prakaraNa), "purpose" (artha), "suitability" (sAmarthya), "propriety" (aucitya). In his "Indian theories of meaning" (1963, pp.48ff.), K. Kunjunni Raja refers to different lists of such factors as contained in the BRhaddevatA and VAkyapadIya. Before I start taking a closer look at the primary sources he indicates, I would like to know whether anyone else might already have done so and provided a systematic comparison of these lists as well as possibly divergent interpretations of the invididual items. I am particularly interested in whether extralinguistic, psychological factors may (or may not) have been viewed as relevant in this context. Most of the items listed by BhartRhari and others (at least as given by Kunjunni Raja) seem to be either linguistic (grammatical gender, semantic restrictions imposed by other linguistic items) or situational (context, purpose), but there do not appear any exclusively speaker- or hearer-related psychological factors. This may of course be explicable through the grammarians' background, but it is nevertheless of interest to the particular perspective from which I am looking at these lists. Any hints will be greatly appreciated, --- Best regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 13 22:36:57 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 22:36:57 +0000 Subject: Yucatan caste Message-ID: <161227067364.23782.6337725620826418777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:46:28 -0600, Benjamin Preciado wrote: >The Maya did not have any caste system. The New Spain society was divided in >castes by the europeans and this system was not taken from indigenous >peoples. It was applied all over the territory and not only in Yucatan. It >was based on race lines and the europeans had the highest ranking, >indigenous peoples, african slaves and all the posible intermarriage descent >coming in the lower rankings. >The indian revolt of Yucatan in the mid XIX century was called the Caste War >because this division of society was still remembered then. >Benjamin Preciado Dear Dr. Preciado, While agreeing that the Spanish colonialists did introduce a Caste like system in Latin America, we should still keep in mind that the indigenous societies of what is today Latin America did have a societies divided along class, mostly hereditary. I think what Dr. Ganesan is trying to find out is the about the concept of pollution with respect to the kinds of jobs they did (by birth) in determining their position in pre-Spanish indigenous societies specifically with respect to the many Maya groups. I am pretty sure that there should be relevant literature in this field. Anthropology journals dedicated to Latin American pre-colonial societies should be of some help. Thanks Raveen From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 04:32:07 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 23:32:07 -0500 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067373.23782.185017682513379305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lance Cousins: You stated: "It is basic to historical processes that very small imperceptible changes in each generation add up to very large changes over centuries. Any historical method which ignores this is absurd." I don't follow your reasoning processes here. I don't see how either Gombrich or I fit into the category you have described. I think that you have jumped to a lot of conclusions without fully explaining your train of thought. That makes for an unclear discussion. Gombrich offers some information from a study, which I quoted, in the interest of shedding some light on the composition of the early Buddhist community. In his description of the information Gombrich clearly mentions that this commentary is from circa 500 CE (although perhaps based on earlier material) and is therefore not entirely reliable. I don't recall ever stating that this was infallible information, nor does Gombrich. Nevertheless, it is interesting and it does state that there were people of lower castes involved in early Buddhism: that's all that was offered. In this commentary, according to Gombrich, there is information about 328 monks and nuns and the various castes that they belonged to. 21 are listed as from the s'uudra and outcastes. While we do have to be skeptical, because of the late date etc., the information cannot be entirely dismissed as "absurd." Instead, I think that we should try to consider every piece of information carefully and not rule out any possibility. Sincerely, Lynken Ghose >From: "L.S.Cousins" >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: dvija varNa >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:37:22 +0000 > >Dear Lynken Ghose, > >I don't particularly object to the attempt. It is always interesting >to see what can be made of something. But I do think the method is >absurd. > >Gombrich cites B.J.Gokhale here. He thinks that the data in the >commentaries may be based on earlier sources. It may be, but it is >precisely historical information about people that varies the most in >our sources. So we have good reason to suppose that such things are >added later. > >It is basic to the understanding of historical processes that very >small, imperceptible changes in each generation add up to very large >changes over centuries. Any historical method which ignores this is >absurd. > >>I don't think that I would use the word "absurd" to categorize Gombrich's >>or >>anyone's attempt to capture the composition of the early sangha. It is an >>attempt but admittedly not one that is faultless. I'm not sure that I was >>labelling it "scientific", nor does Gombrich in his study. > >On the particular issue we can certainly say (on the basis of much >earlier sources) that some of the more well-known disciples of the >Buddha were brahmins and khattiyas. A few were of much more humble >origin. We do not know the social origins of many. This data is >compatible with the view that most of the disciples were brahmins and >khattiyas. It is also compatible with the view that many of the >leaders of the community were brahmins and khattiyas, but the bulk of >the community were of 'lower' class origin. In any case, we have no >reliable information on the detailed make-up of society at large in >this period. Brahmins and khattiyas could have been a very small >minority or a much larger percentage of the population. > >Lance Cousins >-- >HEADINGTON, UK > >CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: >selwyn at ntlworld.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Feb 14 04:36:51 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 01 23:36:51 -0500 Subject: Prof. George Hart's e-mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067376.23782.9806038686721821042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List: Is anyone at liberty to give me Prof. George Hart's e-mail? Much thanks. P. Ernest From noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 13 19:06:43 2001 From: noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM (Noorjahan Begum) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 00:36:43 +0530 Subject: Summer SANSKRIT @ Harvard Message-ID: <161227067350.23782.4476912531031073899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Michael Witzel, I am very happy to see your advertisement of "Summer Sanskrit at Harvard".The aim of this course is to give a basic knowledge of Sanskrit as well as of Devanagari Script. I am professor Noorjahan Begum, Visiting Professor of Hindi & Sanskrit at Sofia University, Sofia, Bulgaria on deputation.I am planing to visit USA in this summer. I will be very happy to teach your students in this Summer if you accept my offer.i herewith attaching my short CV for your information. All the best. Prof. Dr. (Mrs.) Noorjahan Begum M.A.(Hindi)M.A.(Sanskrit)Ph.D., D.Litt. Visiting Prof. of Hindi and Sanskrit, Sofia University, Sofia, Bulgaria. CURRICULUM VITAE Name : Prof.Dr.(Mrs.) Noorjahan Begum Date of Birth : 2-1-1947 Place of Birth : Tanda -Faizabad (U.P.) India Mother Tongue : Urdu Nationality : Indian Designation : Visiting Professor of Hindi & Sanskrit , Dept. of Indology , Center for Eastern Languages and Cultures , 79Nycho Tsanov Str. , Sofia University , 1303 Sofia , Bulgaria. Phone : Res. 00 359 2 797194 Fax : 00 359 2 9801289, 00359-2-9814124 Email: noorjahan_begum at hotmail.com Permanent Address : Professor & Head, Department of Hindi , School of Humanities,University of Hyderabad,Hyderabad ? 500 046 (INDIA ) Phone : Res. 040 ? 3010373 Off. 040 - 3010500 ? 3450 Extn., Fax: 0091-40-3010120, Email: nbsh at uohyd.ernet.in Qualifications:1.M.A.(Hindi)First Class , First Rank , Gold Medalist . Andhra University , Waltair (A.P.) 1971. 2.M.A.(Sanskrit) University of Gorakhpur , (U.P.) 1973. 3.Ph.D. (Hindi) Andhra University Waltair. (A.P.) 1976. 4.D. Litt. (Hindi) Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha , Hyderabad. 1988. 5.Diploma in Russian Language, Andhra University,Waltair 1977 6.Diploma in Turkish Language,Anakara University, Ankara Turkey, 1994 Post-Graduate Teaching Experience: 24 years , from 1976 to till date. Languages known:Hindi , Sanskrit, Urdu, Arabic, English, Telugu, Russian , and Turkish Specialization:Bhakti Literature , Forms of Poetry , Aesthetics , Stylistics, Study of Sanskrit Language & Literature, Dakhini Hindi Literature & Translation. Experience in Abroad:Hindi & Sanskrit Languages teaching at Ankara University , Ankara Turkey from 1992 to 1996, and at Sofia University , Sofia Bulgaria from November 17th to till date. Publications: (a) Books : 1. Purakhyan ka Adhunik Hindi Prabandh KavyonPer Prabhav (Influence of Mythological Stories on Modern Hindi Epics) , Published by Jawahar Pustakalya , Sadar Bazar , Mathura, Mathura-281002. 1981. 2.Kadambari : Shuknasopdesh by Vanbhatta , Traslated into Hindi from Sanskrit, Published by Jawahar Pustakalaya , Sadar Bazar, Mathura ? 281002, 1981. 3.Krishna Bhakta Musalman Kavi(Muslim Poets of Krishna Bhakti cult)Published by Jawahar Pustakalaya, Sadar Bazar, Mathura, 1981 4. Hindi Sahitya mein Rupak Katha Kavya : Udbhav aur vikas. ( Origin and Development of Allegory in Hindi Literature) Published by Bhartiya Prakashan 1 U.B. Jawahar Nagar , Bunglow Road, Delhi ? 110007, 1990. 5.Awaz aur Admi by Prof. Mogani Tabassum,Translated into Hindi from Urdu entitled ?Dhwani aur Gazal? (Phonetics and gazal), published Sameer Prakashan , Tanda - Faizabad , U.P.(Address for correspondence) Faculty Quarter No. A/3 University of Hyderabad , Hyderabad -500 046, 1990 6. Hintche Gramer (Hindi Grammer in Turkish Language) Published by ABA Publications, Alaettin Sevimli , Rashatnuri sokak 21/3 Ankara , Turkey , 1996 7. Bhartiya Kavya Shastra (Articles on Indian Poetics for M.A. Hindi distence Education) Published by Andhra University, School of Correspondance Courses , Andhra University Waltair,1991 8.Translation to the Essays of Prof. U.R.Anant Murthy from Kannad into Hindi, with Nand Kumar Hegde, Published by Radhakrishana Prakashan,New Delhi , 1998. 9. A Novel " Kamotsav" Written by Shri G. Sheshendra Sharma , Translated into Hindi from Telugu.-In the Press. 10. A Dakhini Hindi Epic " Phoolban" by Ibne Nishati Edditted into Devanagri Script ? Received a Grant for Publication from University of Hyderabad ? in the 11. Hindi ke Pauranik kavya : Nav Mulyankan (Neo Criticism of Mythological Hindi Epics) ? In the press. 12. Aesthetics of Translation ? In the Press b)Publications in foreign Language: 1. Published a Hindi Grammar book entitled ? Hint?e Grammer? in Turkish Language. (b) Articles :Thirty five articles has been published in various magazine and five are accepted for publication. (c) Papers Presented :About seventy papers presented in different Conferences, Seminars , Symposia / Workshops. (e) Works in Progress : 1 One Major Project entitled ?? Bhaktikaleen Hindi Sahitya ke Bharatiya Tattwa Ka Jatiya Paksh? (The Phenomenon of Cast System of Indianness to the Hindi literature of Bhakti Cult?) Awarded By University Grant Commission , New Delhi, India, December 1997. 2. One Minor Project entitled ? ? Aesthetics of Dakhini Poetry? Awarded by Unassigned Grant Commission, University of Hyderabad , Hyderabad, India. 3. One Major Project -? Aesthetics of Translation? Awarded by ?Institute of Advanced Study, Rshtrapati Nivas Shimla, India. 4. Compiling Hindi ? Turkish ? Hindi - Dictionaries 5. Prepared a Hindi Course Material with the Students from Newzealand, who joined for a Crash Course of Hindi Language under ?Study India Program? in June 1999. (f) Ph.D.&M.Phil awarded: Nine Students have been awarded Ph.D.Degrees and34M.Phil.Degrees Ph.D.Under Supervision :Seven Ph.D. students are working under supervision. (g)Invitations from Abroad: 1. Presented a paper entitled ?Aesthetics of Subjective Philosophy of Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumy and Kabir? held on 15-17 December, 2000 at Ankara, Turkey. 2. Invited for presenting a paper entitled, ?Aesthetics Sense and the Total Human Personality? for ?The 15th International Congress for Aesthetics to be held at Tokyo, Japan, August 27 ? 31, 2001. 3. Presenting a paper on ?Advaita VedAnta, AdvaitvAda and Sufism at California University, USA, to be held 12-14 April 2001. Award : Received , Dr. Amedkar Fellowship Award , 24th September , 1998. National Dalit Sahitya Akademy, New Delhi, India. Prof. Noorjahan Begum _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 13 19:09:45 2001 From: noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM (Noorjahan Begum) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 00:39:45 +0530 Subject: Summer SANSKRIT @ Harvard Message-ID: <161227067352.23782.15376728730991706794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Michael Witzel, I am very happy to see your advertisement of "Summer Sanskrit at Harvard". As I can understand the aim of this course is to give a basic knowledge of Sanskrit as well as of Devanagari Script. I am professor Noorjahan Begum, Visiting Professor of Hindi & Sanskrit at Sofia University, Sofia, Bulgaria on deputation.I would like to visit USA in this summer. I will be very happy to teach your students in this Summer if you accept my offer.I herewith attaching my short CV for your information. All the best. Prof. Dr. (Mrs.) Noorjahan Begum M.A.(Hindi)M.A.(Sanskrit)Ph.D., D.Litt. Visiting Prof. of Hindi and Sanskrit, Sofia University, Sofia, Bulgaria. CURRICULUM VITAE Name : Prof.Dr.(Mrs.) Noorjahan Begum Date of Birth : 2-1-1947 Place of Birth : Tanda -Faizabad (U.P.) India Mother Tongue : Urdu Nationality : Indian Designation : Visiting Professor of Hindi & Sanskrit , Dept. of Indology , Center for Eastern Languages and Cultures , 79Nycho Tsanov Str. , Sofia University , 1303 Sofia , Bulgaria. Phone : Res. 00 359 2 797194 Fax : 00 359 2 9801289, 00359-2-9814124 Email: noorjahan_begum at hotmail.com Permanent Address : Professor & Head, Department of Hindi , School of Humanities,University of Hyderabad,Hyderabad ? 500 046 (INDIA ) Phone : Res. 040 ? 3010373 Off. 040 - 3010500 ? 3450 Extn., Fax: 0091-40-3010120, Email: nbsh at uohyd.ernet.in Qualifications:1.M.A.(Hindi)First Class , First Rank , Gold Medalist . Andhra University , Waltair (A.P.) 1971. 2.M.A.(Sanskrit) University of Gorakhpur , (U.P.) 1973. 3.Ph.D. (Hindi) Andhra University Waltair. (A.P.) 1976. 4.D. Litt. (Hindi) Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha , Hyderabad. 1988. 5.Diploma in Russian Language, Andhra University,Waltair 1977 6.Diploma in Turkish Language,Anakara University, Ankara Turkey, 1994 Post-Graduate Teaching Experience: 24 years , from 1976 to till date. Languages known:Hindi , Sanskrit, Urdu, Arabic, English, Telugu, Russian , and Turkish Specialization:Bhakti Literature , Forms of Poetry , Aesthetics , Stylistics, Study of Sanskrit Language & Literature, Dakhini Hindi Literature & Translation. Experience in Abroad:Hindi & Sanskrit Languages teaching at Ankara University , Ankara Turkey from 1992 to 1996, and at Sofia University , Sofia Bulgaria from November 17th to till date. Publications: (a) Books : 1. Purakhyan ka Adhunik Hindi Prabandh KavyonPer Prabhav (Influence of Mythological Stories on Modern Hindi Epics) , Published by Jawahar Pustakalya , Sadar Bazar , Mathura, Mathura-281002. 1981. 2.Kadambari : Shuknasopdesh by Vanbhatta , Traslated into Hindi from Sanskrit, Published by Jawahar Pustakalaya , Sadar Bazar, Mathura ? 281002, 1981. 3.Krishna Bhakta Musalman Kavi(Muslim Poets of Krishna Bhakti cult)Published by Jawahar Pustakalaya, Sadar Bazar, Mathura, 1981 4. Hindi Sahitya mein Rupak Katha Kavya : Udbhav aur vikas. ( Origin and Development of Allegory in Hindi Literature) Published by Bhartiya Prakashan 1 U.B. Jawahar Nagar , Bunglow Road, Delhi ? 110007, 1990. 5.Awaz aur Admi by Prof. Mogani Tabassum,Translated into Hindi from Urdu entitled ?Dhwani aur Gazal? (Phonetics and gazal), published Sameer Prakashan , Tanda - Faizabad , U.P.(Address for correspondence) Faculty Quarter No. A/3 University of Hyderabad , Hyderabad -500 046, 1990 6. Hintche Gramer (Hindi Grammer in Turkish Language) Published by ABA Publications, Alaettin Sevimli , Rashatnuri sokak 21/3 Ankara , Turkey , 1996 7. Bhartiya Kavya Shastra (Articles on Indian Poetics for M.A. Hindi distence Education) Published by Andhra University, School of Correspondance Courses , Andhra University Waltair,1991 8.Translation to the Essays of Prof. U.R.Anant Murthy from Kannad into Hindi, with Nand Kumar Hegde, Published by Radhakrishana Prakashan,New Delhi , 1998. 9. A Novel " Kamotsav" Written by Shri G. Sheshendra Sharma , Translated into Hindi from Telugu.-In the Press. 10. A Dakhini Hindi Epic " Phoolban" by Ibne Nishati Edditted into Devanagri Script ? Received a Grant for Publication from University of Hyderabad ? in the 11. Hindi ke Pauranik kavya : Nav Mulyankan (Neo Criticism of Mythological Hindi Epics) ? In the press. 12. Aesthetics of Translation ? In the Press b)Publications in foreign Language: 1. Published a Hindi Grammar book entitled ? Hint?e Grammer? in Turkish Language. (b) Articles :Thirty five articles has been published in various magazine and five are accepted for publication. (c) Papers Presented :About seventy papers presented in different Conferences, Seminars , Symposia / Workshops. (e) Works in Progress : 1 One Major Project entitled ?? Bhaktikaleen Hindi Sahitya ke Bharatiya Tattwa Ka Jatiya Paksh? (The Phenomenon of Cast System of Indianness to the Hindi literature of Bhakti Cult?) Awarded By University Grant Commission , New Delhi, India, December 1997. 2. One Minor Project entitled ? ? Aesthetics of Dakhini Poetry? Awarded by Unassigned Grant Commission, University of Hyderabad , Hyderabad, India. 3. One Major Project -? Aesthetics of Translation? Awarded by ?Institute of Advanced Study, Rshtrapati Nivas Shimla, India. 4. Compiling Hindi ? Turkish ? Hindi - Dictionaries 5. Prepared a Hindi Course Material with the Students from Newzealand, who joined for a Crash Course of Hindi Language under ?Study India Program? in June 1999. (f) Ph.D.&M.Phil awarded: Nine Students have been awarded Ph.D.Degrees and34M.Phil.Degrees Ph.D.Under Supervision :Seven Ph.D. students are working under supervision. (g)Invitations from Abroad: 1. Presented a paper entitled ?Aesthetics of Subjective Philosophy of Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumy and Kabir? held on 15-17 December, 2000 at Ankara, Turkey. 2. Invited for presenting a paper entitled, ?Aesthetics Sense and the Total Human Personality? for ?The 15th International Congress for Aesthetics to be held at Tokyo, Japan, August 27 ? 31, 2001. 3. Presenting a paper on ?Advaita VedAnta, AdvaitvAda and Sufism at California University, USA, to be held 12-14 April 2001. Award : Received , Dr. Amedkar Fellowship Award , 24th September , 1998. National Dalit Sahitya Akademy, New Delhi, India. Prof. Noorjahan Begum _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 05:10:28 2001 From: milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM (milton degeorge) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 05:10:28 +0000 Subject: Gonda and Puja Message-ID: <161227067378.23782.15121275972764531231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all, Would anyone know what the citation of Jan Gonda's article on puja? I have heard it may have 'puja' in the title? Thanks in advance, Milton DeGeorge Jr. Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Feb 14 14:17:03 2001 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 06:17:03 -0800 Subject: Prof. George Hart's e-mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067397.23782.15982245732617765532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ghart at socrates.berkeley.edu chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "Don't blame me...I voted for Kodos." On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Phillip Ernest wrote: > Dear List: > > Is anyone at liberty to give me Prof. George Hart's e-mail? > > Much thanks. > > P. Ernest > From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 14 14:23:20 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 06:23:20 -0800 Subject: Prof. George Hart's e-mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067395.23782.15546839878365723822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try ghart at socrates.berkeley.edu --- Phillip Ernest wrote: > Dear List: > > Is anyone at liberty to give me Prof. George Hart's e-mail? > > Much thanks. > > P. Ernest __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Wed Feb 14 11:43:21 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 06:43:21 -0500 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067389.23782.12151808877930846066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar, >>instead of cars to travel. Time to think about the sociological >>implications of 100 years of blind Hindee enforcement by Sanghis. > >Sometimes, I don't know whether to be amused or annoyed with the >blissful ignorance of recent Indian history in evidence on this >list. By Sanghis, I presume Samar refers to the VHPites and their >intellectual fathers in the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha. Perhaps, memory >needs to be refreshed. Till August 15, 1947, we had a few assorted >viceroys from England. After that date, we have had the Congress >party ruling over India for about 40 years out of the 54 years of >independence (that is 80% of the time, for those so inclined to >care). Those making decisions about "Hindee" were most often Nehru >and his dynastic successors, with their chosen language lords and >culture czars. How does Samar Abbas propose to account for 100 years >of enforcement by Sanghis? Are we talking something sensible here, or >is everything Indian to be held ransom to foolish political rhetoric? I sympathise with your frustration, and I do think Samar is being unnecessarily polemical and often wrong. But it isn't quite accurate to characterise the influence of 'Sanghis' as restricted to the brief period of BJP governance in independent India, for several reasons; - The Indian government pre-1947 was quite sensitive to prevailing Indian opinion, and certainly was not (as a lot of this sort of debate seems to assume) dictating policies without consideration of that opinion (which is not, of course, to claim that it was a democratic government - though whether present Indian governments meet that criterion either is also somewhat in question). - The Congress party, both before and after independence, had a strong (I personally would say dominant) Hindu right wing that can only be with difficulty distinguished from the Sangh (cf. B.G. Tilak). Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. Regards, Rohan. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 14 15:11:52 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 07:11:52 -0800 Subject: samApatti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067399.23782.15205652696928463477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May be useful, Gonda, Jan, 1966. Ancient Indian kingship from the religious point of view. Reprinted from 'Numen' III and IV [1965] with addenda and an index. Leiden: E. J. Brill. iv, 147 pp. 2nd impression 1969. --- Stuart Sarbacker wrote: > Dear Scholars, > > It was recently suggested to me that the term samApatti which is used > in the context of the YogasUtra is also used (in a different sense?) > in the context of "kingship." I'm wondering if anyone here has seen > such a usage (in the kingship context) and could recommend relevant > source materials to look at to explore this further. > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Best Wishes, > > Stuart __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Feb 14 07:28:41 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 07:28:41 +0000 Subject: Hindi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067384.23782.2692091783284982910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No, Shakespeare wrote in early Modern English. Chaucer wrote in Middle English. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Samar Abbas writes: > > Shakespeare wrote in Middle English. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 14 13:13:25 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 08:13:25 -0500 Subject: VyAkaraNa question: contextual factors in determining meaning In-Reply-To: <15716859847.20010213214841@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227067391.23782.16459798075651331413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Grammarians have been only marginally interested in the "extralinguistic psychological" factors. For example, consider Panini's rule k.rtyair adhikaarthavacane (2.1.33). This rule allows derivation of compounds like kaakapeyaa nadii, if some "additional significance is conveyed". The additional significance, as the commentators suggest is praise or blame of the river. While the grammarians thus admit that in some cases such "additional meanings" are of grammatical relevance, they have not generally gone into theorizing about how one understands these "additional" meanings. We do not hear of Vyanjanaa in the grammatical tradition until we come to the works of Naagezabha.t.ta, where we have contrary indications about its acceptance. You may look up an interesting paper by Saroja Bhate: "Vyanjana as Reflected in the Formal Structure of Language", in Paninian Studies, Professor S.D. Joshi Felicitation Volume, edited by Madhav Deshpande and Saroja Bhate, 1991, Michigan Papers on South and Southeast Asia, # 37, Center for South and Southeast Asian Studies, University of Michigan, pp. 55-64. K.P. Shukla, in his Sanskrit work (Vaiyaakara.naanaam anye.saam ca matena zabda-svaruupa-tac-chakti- vicaara.h, Varanasi, 1979, p. 125), refers to the factors cited by Birgit Kellner with the term abhidhaa-niyaamaka. They help one choose between alternative basic meanings. Shukla distinguishes between possible subsequent suggestions etc. from the initial determination from among alternative basic meanings (p. 127): kvacic ca prakara.naadinaa artha- bodhaanantaram vaktur boddhavyasya ca devadattader vailak.sa.nyena nava- navonme.sazaalinyaa pratibhayaa ca vyangyo 'py artha.h pratiiyate / ... ete ca sa.myogaadaya.h ... zaktyopasthitaanaam aneke.saam arthaanaam ekataramaatraarthe taatparyasya nir.nayadvaaraa tanmaatraarthavi.sayakaanvayabodhajanakaa bhavantiiti taatparyam / Best, Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, birgit kellner wrote: > Dear list-members, > > I would like to know whether there exist any detailed studies of > contextual factors that assist in the disambiguation of meaning, as > posited by VaiAkaraNas and MImAMsakas. > > I am referring to such factors as "context" (prakaraNa), "purpose" (artha), "suitability" (sAmarthya), "propriety" > (aucitya). In his "Indian theories of meaning" (1963, pp.48ff.), K. > Kunjunni Raja refers to different lists of such factors as contained > in the BRhaddevatA and VAkyapadIya. Before I start taking a closer > look at the primary sources he indicates, I would like to know whether > anyone else might already have done so and provided a systematic > comparison of these lists as well as possibly divergent > interpretations of the invididual items. > > I am particularly interested in whether extralinguistic, psychological factors may (or may not) have > been viewed as relevant in this context. Most of the items listed by > BhartRhari and others (at least as given by Kunjunni Raja) seem to be either > linguistic (grammatical gender, semantic restrictions imposed by other > linguistic items) or situational (context, purpose), but there do not > appear any exclusively speaker- or hearer-related psychological > factors. This may of course be explicable through the grammarians' > background, but it is nevertheless of interest to the particular > perspective from which I am looking at these lists. > > Any hints will be greatly appreciated, > > --- > Best regards, > > Birgit Kellner > Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > Vienna University > From benjy_fleming at ALTAVISTA.COM Wed Feb 14 16:18:25 2001 From: benjy_fleming at ALTAVISTA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 08:18:25 -0800 Subject: Sikhandin Message-ID: <161227067403.23782.2167556955111930528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I am searching for references to Sikhandin, specifically stories describing his transformation from a woman into a man via the yaksha named Sthuna who gives Sikhandini his male genetalia. I have found two brief referencse to this tale in the Adi Parvan of the Mahabharata (I, 63; I, 67), but would like to read some more lengthy and detailed accounts. Any references would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. B. Fleming Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Wed Feb 14 13:20:26 2001 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 08:20:26 -0500 Subject: VyAkaraNa question: contextual factors in determining meaning Message-ID: <161227067393.23782.17189505013794306389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The tantrayuktis, which are discussed in Ayurveda but are by no means limited to that discipline, provide important guidelines for the interpretation of scholarly texts. You might refer to the Tantrayuktivic?ra of N?lamegha, edited by N. E. Muthuswami as volume 1 of Kerala Pras?san?yurvedagrantrh?vali (Trivandrum, Government Ayurveda College, 1976). The 33-page Sanskrit text is accompanied by a 42-page appendix with citations from other Sanskrit works, and, in English, an 18-page editor?s introduction and a 44-page exposition of Tantrayukti by K.R Srikantha Murthy. Thomas Burke From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Feb 14 08:36:46 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 08:36:46 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067424.23782.14947144290394408690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lynken, I have made no comments about either you or Richard Gombrich. I am simply addressing the method. >I don't recall ever stating that this was infallible information, nor does >Gombrich. Nevertheless, it is interesting and it does state that there were >people of lower castes involved in early Buddhism: that's all that was >offered. In this commentary, according to Gombrich, there is information >about 328 monks and nuns and the various castes that they belonged to. 21 >are listed as from the s'uudra and outcastes. >While we do have to be skeptical, because of the late date etc., the >information cannot be entirely dismissed as "absurd." Instead, I think that >we should try to consider every piece of information carefully and not rule >out any possibility. We know that new materials are often created. Especially, people elaborate story material. So, if there is no story, they invent one. If nothing is said about the author of the verses, sooner or later someone will put in a plausible name and background. You have to remember that the people concerned were not interested in history. What they wanted was material for teaching dhamma which would motivate and please the hearer so as to advance them in their pursuit of the way. Perhaps some less worthy motivations sometimes too. They would have seen nothing wrong in adding names and dates. Accuracy in our sense would only matter in preserving the letter (dhamma) and spirit (attha) of the Buddha's teaching. To defend the traditions, you have to argue that they are based on texts written down in the Sinhalese dialect of Prakrit in the first century B.C. on the basis of earlier traditions brought from what we now call India or Pakistan in the third or second century B.C. This is not impossible, but it seems rather unlikely. There is no reason to suppose that the early followers of the Buddhist way were interested in such matters. Moreover, we consistently find that the traditions of other Buddhist schools vary both from the Pali traditions and among themselves. This suggests strongly (although it does not absolutely prove) that all traditions about such matters tell us more about Buddhism in the early centuries A.D. than about the earlier period. If I call the method of relying on unsupported sources from many hundreds of years later absurd, it is because the historicity of all sorts of legends can be defended in this way. The progress of historical research has consistently shown that late information (no matter how detailed) cannot be relied upon without supporting evidence. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Feb 14 15:55:20 2001 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 10:55:20 -0500 Subject: A difficult Pali word Message-ID: <161227067401.23782.2589190039063210620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the commentary to the Samyutta-nikaaya, the Saaratthappakaasinii: (PTS Woodward 1932: 199.27-200.9 (XVI.11)), there occurs the word tumbamatta, modifying paanaka. The passage is stating that Sakyamuni is picking up a robe discarded in a charnel ground, and the robe is covered with creatures. But for the life of me I cannot understand what tumbamatta might mean, unless tumba is taken as a unit of measure, and the expression is intended to mean something like "covered with creatures to the extent of a litre-bucket full" or something like that. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Note that a better text found in the Dhammagiri-Paali-Ganthamaalaa edition (Igatpuri: Vipassana research Institute, 1994): vol. 30, p. 175. The commentary is quoting Samyutta-nikaaya ii.221,15-17 (XVI.11.28). Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 11:31:20 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 11:31:20 +0000 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067386.23782.5153352519794410108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >its English inventors. Since the very fathers of the language spelled it >like this, and since Hindee is also known as Hinglish because of this, >surely there can be nothing wrong in this spelling? Surely then, there is nothing wrong with old and quaint spellings like Gentoo, Hindoo, Moslem, Cadi, Achmed, Mahomet, etc? >instead of cars to travel. Time to think about the sociological >implications of 100 years of blind Hindee enforcement by Sanghis. Sometimes, I don't know whether to be amused or annoyed with the blissful ignorance of recent Indian history in evidence on this list. By Sanghis, I presume Samar refers to the VHPites and their intellectual fathers in the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha. Perhaps, memory needs to be refreshed. Till August 15, 1947, we had a few assorted viceroys from England. After that date, we have had the Congress party ruling over India for about 40 years out of the 54 years of independence (that is 80% of the time, for those so inclined to care). Those making decisions about "Hindee" were most often Nehru and his dynastic successors, with their chosen language lords and culture czars. How does Samar Abbas propose to account for 100 years of enforcement by Sanghis? Are we talking something sensible here, or is everything Indian to be held ransom to foolish political rhetoric? Vidyasankar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Wed Feb 14 06:20:59 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 11:50:59 +0530 Subject: Hindi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067380.23782.12894984583639599370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Shailendra Raj Mehta wrote: > Sanskrit has been written in more than 4 scripts. At least a dozen. When I wrote that Hindee is the only language having four scripts, I meant SPOKEN language. Since Sanskrit is not a spoken language, it has the liberty to use any script it so desires. Sanskrit did not have any script when it spread across India, and as a result, adopted the scripts of the pre-Sanskritic languages. In fact, many Pundits oppose the writing down of Sanskrit words as they feel it "degrades the language of the gods". For this reason, Sanskrit technically does not have any script. Once again, there is no SPOKEN language anywhere in the world which has a whole FOUR scripts. > If so, Samar, then you set up such an impossibly high standard for the > definition of a language that, all dialects too become, in your definition, > separate languages. Just because German and English use the same script does not make them the same language. Also, what about Dutch and German ? > Did Shakespeare not write in English? Would you argue that > "Elizabethan" was a separate language? Because Beowulf was written in a dialect of old Germanic does not make English a dialect of German, which is something the official Sanghi historians are trying to do to Hindee for the last fifty years. Somehow, Magahi (its very name proves it is descended from Magadhi / Pali), Rajasthani (obviously of Hunnic origin) etc. are portrayed as mere dialects of Hindee. No mention is made of how the Sakas did not influence this Hindee (or is it supposed to be Apabrahmsa ?). Shakespeare wrote in Middle English. English is in turn derived from Anglo-Saxon, which is in turn derived from Germanic. Still then, English is not a dialect of German. However, it is almost universally recognised that different predominant scripts implies different languages. So only a few claim that Tamil is a `dialect' of Hindee. > Linguistic name calling, (calling Hindi, Hindee, or a farce, just because > some English pamphleteer did so) is neither accurate nor justified. The "English pamphleteer" in question is Mr. Sushil Srivastava. (http://www.epw.org.in/35-4344/disc.htm). Wonder, does that sound like an English name ? Also, Hindoostanee/Hindee is the spelling given to Hindi by its English inventors. Since the very fathers of the language spelled it like this, and since Hindee is also known as Hinglish because of this, surely there can be nothing wrong in this spelling? Likewise, the enforcement of Hindee is the cause of the Hindi-Cow-Belt being "the most backward region in the Indian subcontinent" [Mr.Srivastava, EPW, ibid.]. While Tamil Nadu, Andhra and Karnataka are heading for an IT revolution, Hindi-Cow-Belt still uses bullock-carts instead of cars to travel. Time to think about the sociological implications of 100 years of blind Hindee enforcement by Sanghis. Samar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Wed Feb 14 06:29:27 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 11:59:27 +0530 Subject: Langauge of the Mughals (Hindi) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067382.23782.5195579900475350327.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > The court language of the Moghuls was always farsi, right to the end. > The family language of the Moghuls was Turkic. Urdu remained as the language of the masses, while the elite spoke their ancestral Turkic/Persian/Pashto/Arabic. Having originated at the camps of Mahmud-e-Ghazni (whence the name `Urdu' or camp) at Ghazna, Urdu spread across the Indus-Ganges plains from the 11th century onwards. > Many in Pakistan question use of Urdu as the national language, > and suggest the Arabic or Farsi be the national language there. Likewise many in India question the use of Hindi as national language, and suggest Tamil or Sanskrit be the national language. Since Tamil is far older and has a much richer literature than Hindee, and is the language of the IT-literate state of India, its use as national language is far more rational than Hindee. > The last emperor did compose verses in Urdu, but Urdu never had > any official position during the Moghul rule. If an emperor could compose verses, surely what more does one need in the way of "official" encouragement ? Samar From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 17:03:55 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 12:03:55 -0500 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067412.23782.12167912827647164774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU >>>implications of 100 years of blind Hindee enforcement by Sanghis. I think many people are worried by the 'future' 100 years they may rule. But isn't religious involvement always irrational? Did you read the news items about Islamic leaders in India calling for destruction of TV sets as a cause of earthquakes? I think religion must be separated from state. It is when state fails that religion comes to control state. Traditionally as per purANAs the sages only used to visit kingdoms rarely to advise the kings. Otherwise sages never had a vested interest in state. >But it isn't quite accurate to characterise the influence of >'Sanghis' as >restricted to the brief period of BJP governance in >independent India, for >several reasons; To the best of my information, before and after independence, sanghis introduced sanskrit in their daily routine, not Hindi. Most of their 'military style commands' were in sanskrit. Another thing I heard they imposed was the marAThA legacy in leadership. >- The Indian government pre-1947 was quite sensitive to prevailing > Indian opinion, and certainly was not (as a lot of this sort of >debate seems to assume) dictating policies without consideration of > that opinion This story is similar to Jesus being crucified by Roman city mayor on the advise of Jewish priests. I would blame the mayor, not the Jews because the mayor was supposed to have absolute authority on his kingdom. Likewise the Viceroy was responsible for what happened before independence. I leave it to historians whether Viceroy acted out of avoiding headache or to purposely manipulate; but he may have played both ways to appease both Hindus and Muslims. (which is not, of course, to claim that it was a > democratic government - though whether present Indian governments > meet that criterion either is also somewhat in question). I don't deny that some rulers may not be democratic, but they were all promptly brought down through democratic elections. The exceptions were the two prime ministers who were assassinated. Even in those cases it was caused by frustrated members of some affected communities rather than by a 'military establishment' taking over. >- The Congress party, both before and after independence, had a >strong (I >personally would say dominant) Hindu right wing that can >only be with >difficulty distinguished from the Sangh (cf. B.G. >Tilak). Wasn't pre-independence politics already polarized on religious grounds? it is difficult to say what "caused" it first. Tilak organized religious festivals, but did he give out any hate speeches against others? >Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority >demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. I didn't hear anything in words, but it was well known that Indira Gandhi was shrewd. 1994 riots were the worst part. As for languages; we have to separate out literary issues and daily routine link language issues. Literary: In my opinion, sanskrit should have been more rightist than Hindi. Even stauch Tamil scholars on this list would welcome sanskrit courses in their home state than Hindi, because it may indirectly help a lot of literary works to/from Tamil. But sanskrit was not actively promoted either because the new rulers wanted to create a "new history" devoid of older sanskrit/farsi legacy; or because of pressure from the 'dead language' crowd. Link-language for people: Hindi was popularized to have something common between different states. The question arises why not English? This question was asked for 5 decades by every body, and that is why local language is first language, and English is second language in every state. Hindi is relegated to third language in most states except probably Tamil nadu where people learn on their own for jobs in north. Another reason for promotion of Hindi may be that Congress was pretty strong in UP belt. It may be north dominating south, rather than a Hindu agenda. At least that is what I guessed in my long public sector service in north India. The northern managers found it easier to do administration in Hindi rather than English. If you write some nonsense, they still say "Eh kya angrezi hai?" Best regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Wed Feb 14 17:49:31 2001 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 12:49:31 -0500 Subject: Sikhandin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067416.23782.8151636664119704446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The most complete account is in Udyoga Parvan, 5.189-194. Best, Patricia On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:24:53 +0000 "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Dear Mr. Fleming, > > Sikhandin story is analyzed in Wendy Doniger's recent book: > Splitting the Difference, 1999. For more refs, check the > endnotes. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > > > ---------------------- > Dear List Members, > I am searching for references to Sikhandin, specifically stories describing > his transformation from a woman into a man via the yaksha named Sthuna who > gives Sikhandini his male genetalia. I have found two brief referencse to > this tale in the Adi Parvan of the Mahabharata (I, 63; I, 67), but would > like to read some more lengthy and detailed accounts. Any references would > be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. > B. Fleming > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Wed Feb 14 18:09:27 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 13:09:27 -0500 Subject: Khojki & Hindus/ India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" Message-ID: <161227067421.23782.16176538010584271918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Malaiya wrote: >Oberoi wrote: > >>Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority >>demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. > >She was not one of my favorite politician (but she was popularly >elected by people on several occasions). But what "minority >demonization" Oberoi is talking about? My remarks referred to Gandhi's various campaigns to paint minority groups and political parties as anti-national, separatist, etc. and thereby to strengthen the Hindu majority vote behind her. Most notably, her campaign against the Akalis in the late 70's and early 80's. I'm surprised "Malaiya" doesn't know about this. I don't have any references at hand right now, but you could get some information even from a web search: http://www.epw.org.in/34-05/edit3.htm http://www.epw.org.in/34-12/comm2.htm http://inic.utexas.edu/asnic/sagar/sagar4.1.html http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.indiaserver.com/1999/04/20/stories/05202523.htm+indira+gandhi+akalis&hl=en >She was in some sense more Hindu that her father (who was a well >known agnostic), but she married a Zoroastrian and her two sons >married a Christian and a Sikh girl. How exactly did she "demonize" a >minority? And what "Hindu mobilisation"? Gandhi's demonisation of 1) Muslims in Kashmir and 2) Sikhs in Punjab in the early 80s, and her attempts to mobilise the Hindu vote, have been remarked on by many commentators. I'd suggest some reading. I recall a couple of very good commentaries from the period I had saved from a LEXIS-NEXIS search, but I don't have them now. Look up famous incidents like the 1982 Asiad "turban ban" in Haryana. Regards, Rohan. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 16:24:53 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 16:24:53 +0000 Subject: Sikhandin Message-ID: <161227067405.23782.9639726572387473764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Fleming, Sikhandin story is analyzed in Wendy Doniger's recent book: Splitting the Difference, 1999. For more refs, check the endnotes. Regards, N. Ganesan ---------------------- Dear List Members, I am searching for references to Sikhandin, specifically stories describing his transformation from a woman into a man via the yaksha named Sthuna who gives Sikhandini his male genetalia. I have found two brief referencse to this tale in the Adi Parvan of the Mahabharata (I, 63; I, 67), but would like to read some more lengthy and detailed accounts. Any references would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. B. Fleming _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Wed Feb 14 16:33:12 2001 From: mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Shailendra Raj Mehta) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 16:33:12 +0000 Subject: Hindi and Urdu again (sigh!) Message-ID: <161227067407.23782.15027866411811478693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Abbas piles error upon error without disregard for the truth. We learn from him that Urdu was the court language of the Mughals. That Shakespeare wrote in Medieval English. That Hindi became the official language of India because the "Sanghis" (whoever they are) willed it so a hundred years ago. That Kabir, Rahim, Raidas, Khusro, Jaisi, did not write in Hindi, and so on. That Tamil should be the national language of India because of its older and richer literature (by the way, old Tamil (say as in the Tirukkural, is incomprehensible to modern Tamils), and because it is the language of the "IT-literate state of India" (is that so?). That Hindi is a farce because it is written in four scripts. (Actually, if one were to do an analysis one would find that a minute fraction of 1% is written in any script other than Devanagari. Also, what would that make Urdu, since a significant fraction of it is written in each of Arabic, Devanagari and Roman scripts (e.g. web ghazals)? I have been a member of this list almost since its inception. Indeed it is difficult to find any other poster in the history of this list who has a higher noise to signal ratio. Not surprisingly it is difficult to find a many factual posts by him with which anyone agrees (I am sure there are some). And of course, his value judgements are in a class by himself. Shailendra Raj Mehta Purdue University From giravani at JUNO.COM Wed Feb 14 16:47:27 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 16:47:27 +0000 Subject: Multilingual Scholars Message-ID: <161227067410.23782.11180741335301712292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From this list today I came to know a multilingual scholar Dr.(Mrs.) Noorjahan Begum. I congratulate her on her multilingual qualifications. The Indology list needs to know many scholars like her from India. I personally request multilingual scholars from India participate in Indology list and make constructive contribution so that all us enjoy the multilingual rich heritage of India.My mother tongue is not Urdu. I watch and enjoy Pakistani family dramas in Urdu having almost 80% Sanskrit related words. I made a list of about 300 words I did not understand from about 300 dramas I watched from 1990. I asked meanings of those words to my Pakistani students. These were mostly Persian words. Once I knew their meanings, it was also became interesting hobby for me to trace the related Sanskrit word by using Grimm's rule and similar devices.I equally enjoyed the Qawali program of Shamshad Bano who sang in Urdu as well as in Telugu at Tahzeeb-i- Deccan Program in Houston in Nov 1999.However One thing I did not understand. If Urdu spread from the camp of Mahamood of Gazna from Afghanistan, then why does Urdu have 80% Sanskrit related words? Does this mean that people from Afghanistan in 1100 AD have Sanskrit related words in their language? Mahamood of Gazna was Turkish and not Mongolian. His mother tongue (I guess) was Turkish.Turkish language belonged to Altaic group while Persian-FArasi-Sanskrit belonged to Indo-Iranian-Aryan languages group. Why Urdu was promoted by Turkish kings instead of promoting their own different Turkish language? Muslim Arabs introduced Arabic script (around 800 AD) to Aryan lands of Iran and Afghanistan where Turkish people also came to know that script. Before 800 AD, what was the language of Afghan people and what script was used by them? And what was the script used by Turkish people from Turkmenistan before 800 AD when they got acquainted with Arabic script? What was the script used by Sassanian kings just before Arabs attacked them in about 700 AD? One can learn to appreciate our heritage from the ancient history of Asia.In the population of 70 million people of Maharashta, even 5000 copies of Marathi book are not sold. If Urdu is written simultaneouly in Arabic script and Devanagari script, the writer of Urdu will enjoy bigger market within the subcontinent. This market could be expanded to Afghanistan(birth place of Urdu) and then even to Iran and Arabia. All middle east countries enjoy good Indian movies from Bombay. They do not like Bollywood copying more more from Hollywood.To expand Urdu/Hindi market is the constructive activity. However it seems to me we lack this kind of constructive thinking. In Marathi, there is proverb-"TulA nako, malA nako, ghAl kutrAlA". It means-I do not want to eat. I will not allow you to eat. Let us throw it to the dog. Are not we people from the Indian heritage doing exactly the same in arguing about Urdu,Hindi and Sanskrit?May Allah change our attitude and let us hope Urdu will spread all over the middle east from Lebanon to Afghanistan!Amen! N.R.Joshi From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 22:08:04 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 17:08:04 -0500 Subject: Khojki & Hindus/ India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" Message-ID: <161227067433.23782.5922583283255197033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Arun Gupta >Since Bhindranwale was a separatist, how does "propping up >Bhindranwale" >(against the Akalis, to quote from one of the URLs >provided by Rohan >Oberoi) constitute Mrs. "Gandhi's various campaigns >to paint minority >groups and political parties as anti-national, >separatist, etc. and >thereby to strengthen the Hindu majority vote >behind her." I think Rohan is right. It may have been like viSNu becoming buddha to play trick on asuras and deviate them from path of vedic sacrifices(!) Indira Gandhi may have propped up Bhindranwale to delude Sikhs and Akalis so that she can later paint minority groups as anti-national. Hey I can create myths too! (Aren't we getting too close to current affairs?) Regards Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Feb 14 17:18:45 2001 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 17:18:45 +0000 Subject: Khojki & Hindus/ India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" Message-ID: <161227067414.23782.2181965482567414133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen Thrasher wrote: >By the way, I would suspect that Khojki was developed by and for >Hindus, in accord with David Dirringer's principle "Language follows >religion." Frequently the script that is used for a sacred language >is then adopted and adapted for a secular one. "Khojki" means the script of the (Ismaili) Khojas. You can see some some Ismaili Khojaki manuscripts on the web. Many of these manuscripts use traditional Hindu expression for conveying the Ismaili message like "Buj Nirinian", "Athar Ved", "Budh Avatar" etc. However Khojaki was not invented by Khojas, but rather used by them. Before them it (or an earlier form of it) was used in the region by others, specially Lohana and Bhatia traders. Incidentally a large fraction of Ismailis are former Lohanas and Bhatias. Jinnah, founder of Pakistan, of Bhatia ancestery, was a Khoja before he converted to Sunni sect. This is somewhat similar to Gurumukhi, used by the Sikh Gurus. They used a form of the the takari script of the the Khatri traders which itself was a form of Sharada script of Kashmir/hills. Oberoi wrote: >Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority >demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. She was not one of my favorite politician (but she was popularly elected by people on several occasions). But what "minority demonization" Oberoi is talking about? She was in some sense more Hindu that her father (who was a well known agnostic), but she married a Zoroastrian and her two sons married a Christian and a Sikh girl. How exactly did she "demonize" a minority? And what "Hindu mobilisation"? Yashwant From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Feb 14 22:42:36 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 17:42:36 -0500 Subject: learning scripts (Was: the farce that is Urdu) Message-ID: <161227067439.23782.14055846941695152312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think people experience radically different degrees of difficulty in learning new scripts, even if they are based on the same structural principles. ****************** Its a question of motivation vs laziness. It is indeed irritating to look at alien letters and the brain soon tunes out. My grand mother reads and writes very fluently nagari, urdu, bengali and english 4 scripts, all learnt during childhood , by abbas's definiton she should not exist. She is also has the highest speed amongst us in reading dissimilar scripts like gujarati, gurmukhi so as you say childhood exposure may help. By the way marathi script should be an easier read than gujarati for hindi speakers assumng we even want to differentiate. cuniform must have been a hard read because it all looks so similar. Ofcourse it was easy on the scribes. pigeon brains can differentiate between rotationally transformed images much faster than humans. This proves that the sumerians were pigeons and of course hindi never existed. RB From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Feb 14 22:47:11 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 17:47:11 -0500 Subject: Multilingual Scholars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067441.23782.18260557332157851422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Narayan R.Joshi" has written as follows: >From this list today I came to know a multilingual scholar Just one? I am sure that there are several more. > >students. These were mostly Persian words. Once I knew their meanings, it >was also became interesting hobby for me to trace the related Sanskrit word It is true with any language. There are so many words that some one uses in English that I do not know and have to consult a dictionary to understand the true intent of the writer or speaker. >understand. If Urdu spread from the camp of Mahamood of Gazna from >Afghanistan, then why does Urdu have 80% Sanskrit related words? You have started a sentence with "if" and without waiting for the answer went ahead with another question based on your assumed answer. Have you heard the meaning of "assume = ASS U ME"? It is making an ass of you and me. Your second question has no significance unless your assumption is correct. >group. Why Urdu was promoted by Turkish kings instead of promoting their >own different Turkish language? Whom do you call Turkish kings? Babar, Humayn, Akbar and all their dynasty was raised in India and were no more foreigner than Sonia Gandhi and her children. Just because a person is born in a certain country is no reason to assume that he./she cannot adopt another country. I myself was born in India but am now a naturalized US citizen and have no less loyal to US than any one born here. Muslim Arabs introduced Arabic script >subcontinent. This market could be expanded to Afghanistan(birth place of >Urdu) and then even to Iran and Arabia. Your assumption is again incorrect. Afghanistan is not birth place of Urdu. Persian and Arabic are two completely different languages and speaker of one does not necessarily know the other language even slightly. As a matter of fact Iranians are Shias and Afghanis are Sunnis and very bitter enemies of each other. >us throw it to the dog. Are not we people from the Indian heritage doing >exactly the same in arguing about Urdu,Hindi and Sanskrit?May Allah change >our attitude and let us hope Urdu will spread all over the middle east from >Lebanon to Afghanistan!Amen! N.R.Joshi Your are so off the mark that I do not what to say about your imagination and wishes. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: President Reagan noted that there are too many economic pundits and forecasters and decided on an excess prophets tax. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Feb 14 22:52:22 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 17:52:22 -0500 Subject: Khojki & Hindus/ India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" Message-ID: <161227067444.23782.18290469806015242667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm surprised "Malaiya" doesn't know about this. I don't have any references at hand right now, but you could get some information even from a web search: MAybe rohan oberoi was born after operation bluestar. I am surprised that he is unaware of the encouragement by indira gandhi to armed akali sects and militant groups in the earlu eighties and seventies. She reversed her stand only because sikh militancy went out of hand. Every one knows that bhindranwale was gandhis creation. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 15 00:01:07 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 19:01:07 -0500 Subject: Hindi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067446.23782.15796199889521880846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tilak published the newspaper Kesari in Marathi, and Marhatta in English, but nothing in Sanskrit. Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU > > >- The Congress party, both before and after independence, had a strong > > (I personally would say dominant) Hindu right wing that can only be > > with difficulty distinguished from the Sangh (cf. B.G. Tilak). > > In case you didn't know, Tilak published one newspaper in > Marathi, and another in Sanskrit. Are we talking about the > Hindi language or the Hindu religion? The two are different > things, you know. > > > Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority > > demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. > > So now Indira belonged to the Sangh Parivar too? She was not > one of my favorite people, but please cut her some slack. > > Surely, India has to be the only democratic country on this > earth where it is a crime for a politician like Indira to > acknowledge the culture of the majority of its people. > > Vidyasankar > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Wed Feb 14 21:41:13 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 21:41:13 +0000 Subject: Khojki & Hindus/ India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" Message-ID: <161227067427.23782.7148042856291459610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since Bhindranwale was a separatist, how does "propping up Bhindranwale" (against the Akalis, to quote from one of the URLs provided by Rohan Oberoi) constitute Mrs. "Gandhi's various campaigns to paint minority groups and political parties as anti-national, separatist, etc. and thereby to strengthen the Hindu majority vote behind her." If there ever was a fascist in modern Indian history, Mrs. Gandhi was it (suspension of civil liberties, "Indira is India", throwing opposition into jail, erasing distinction between State and Party, etc.) So I have no intention of defending Mrs. G. Just want to understand the point. -Arun Gupta From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET Wed Feb 14 21:49:31 2001 From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 21:49:31 +0000 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067429.23782.16127916959003748434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhadraiah Mallampalli is right; if you search you will find that many "Sanghi" legislators are taking their oath in Sanskrit. (Do + Sanskrit + oath on Google). -Arun Gupta From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 22:03:00 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 22:03:00 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067431.23782.5122008702623065473.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor D N Jha wrote in July 2000: >I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >relevant information/references? A. Hiltebeitel, On the Handling of the Meat, and Related matters, in Two South Indian Buffalo sacrifices, L'Uomo, 9, p. 171-199 Hiltebeitel, Alf. "The Indus Valley 'Proto-Siva', Reexamined through Reflections on the Goddess, the Buffalo, and the Symbolism of Vaahanas." Anthropos 73:5-6 (1978):767-97 Dr. Jogesh Panda's reply to Jha: >Buffaloes were sacrificed until recently [late 70s] by the DumbAls or >DumAls of Sonepur and Baud in the State of Orissa, though not in what might >be called a temple. These animals were/are sacrificed at the shrine of >KhambezvarI or StambhesvarI [also caled MAhezvarI by them]. References are >in the pre-1947 Gazateers. Kulke's Jagannath Cult book also has references >to buffalo sacrifice of the DumAls In the book, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees, Essays on the Guardians of popular Hinduism, State University of New York press, 1989 and in older works like 1) Slater, Gilbert, The Dravidian element in Indian culture, London, 1924 2) The village gods of south India. Whitehead, Henry, The village gods of south India. Calcutta, 1921. 3) Dravidian gods in modern Hinduism;. Elmore, Wilber T., Dravidian gods in modern Hinduism; 1915, there are descriptions of many many buffalo sacrifices offered to village goddesses all across the Dravidian South. These buffalo sacrifices are done in the axis connecting a "post"(khamba) and the goddess during festivals. The kambam post, also called kantu in tamil (Cf. skt. skandha), is many times forked at the head (indicative of the horned deity), and often explicitly identified with Mahisasura. The person who kills the buffalo with one stroke is usually from an ex-untouchable caste. "The Tamilas hire a Pariya (i.e. drummer) to perform the decapitation at their Badra K?li sacrifices."--Kittel, in Ind. Ant. ii. 170, 1873. Oftentimes the blood of the animal is smeared on the khambam "post" by the ritualists. Then a marriage ceremony between the goddess and the "post"(khamba/stambha/skandha) may follow. These "post" gods, eventually placed in the front of temples to Ellamma etc. go by the name, pOtturAja (pOttu = male buffalo in tamil), pOtarAjA in telugu, potrAj in Maharashtra. pOttaraiyan2(= pOtturAja) was a title common for Pallava kings, because he is paTTa-mahisha. My question is whether the khamba/stambha in East India where buffalo sacrifices are done represent Mahisasura? Is there still smearing of the blood of the sacrificed animal like buffalo as can be commonly observed in the South? Regards, N. Ganesan PS: What does dumbAla mean? In Tamil, "tUmpu" = a) tube b) musical instruments like horns and trumpets c) flute made of bamboo and, "tumpi" means bee as well as elephant because bees have a tube to suck honey, and elephants have tubular trunks. So, dumbAla/dUmbAla will mean musicians playing horn like instruments. Let me quote a sangam poem where kOTiyar (< kOTu 'horn') musicians use the "tUmpu" instuments. Oy kaLiRu eTutta nOy uTai neTu kai toku col kOTiyar tUmpin2 uyirkkum - aka. 111:8-9 The drav. caste name dombaru is clearly related to this tumpu/tUmpu. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Feb 14 22:30:47 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 22:30:47 +0000 Subject: A difficult Pali word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067437.23782.7846893316828275244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jonathan, The .tiikaas do indeed take it as a unit of measure. See CPD sv aa.lhaka. p.t to Spk I 281: paadagha.takan ti do.nassa catubhaago sa.n.thaanato khuddako, tasmaa paadagha.takappamaa.nan ti tumbamatta.m. I think they are correct. See also Mp III 48; Sv III 1011. Lance Cousins >In the commentary to the Samyutta-nikaaya, the Saaratthappakaasinii: >(PTS Woodward 1932: 199.27-200.9 (XVI.11)), there occurs the word >tumbamatta, modifying paanaka. The passage is stating that Sakyamuni >is picking up a robe discarded in a charnel ground, and the robe is >covered with creatures. But for the life of me I cannot understand >what tumbamatta might mean, unless tumba is taken as a unit of >measure, and the expression is intended to mean something like >"covered with creatures to the extent of a litre-bucket full" or >something like that. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 14 22:33:59 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 22:33:59 +0000 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067435.23782.17634210010544114567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU >- The Congress party, both before and after independence, had a strong > (I personally would say dominant) Hindu right wing that can only be > with difficulty distinguished from the Sangh (cf. B.G. Tilak). In case you didn't know, Tilak published one newspaper in Marathi, and another in Sanskrit. Are we talking about the Hindi language or the Hindu religion? The two are different things, you know. > Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority > demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. So now Indira belonged to the Sangh Parivar too? She was not one of my favorite people, but please cut her some slack. Surely, India has to be the only democratic country on this earth where it is a crime for a politician like Indira to acknowledge the culture of the majority of its people. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Wed Feb 14 17:38:28 2001 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 23:08:28 +0530 Subject: Summer SANSKRIT @ Harvard Message-ID: <161227067418.23782.11855174721031876819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr.NoorjahanBeegum, Thank you very much for your posting though it had to be directly sent to Dr.Witzel. I am interested in your paper "Advaita VedAnta, AdvaitvAda and Sufism ''.When it becomes possible will you please send me a copy? Wish you all the best. With regards Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Professor of Sanskrit & Director Centre for Vedanta Studies University of Kerala Kariavattom P.O. Trivandrum-Kerala-India-695 581 e-mail: swantham at techpark.net_______________________________________________________ __________________ From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Feb 15 04:16:54 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Cheerful Hindu Skeptic) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 01 23:16:54 -0500 Subject: The Farce that is URDU In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD049C5759@smgmail.phl.smginc.com> Message-ID: <161227067455.23782.13581987099335908510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajarshi Banerjee has written as follows: >You dont need liguists to claim such things. The different scripts are >mainly a change of font. Till just a few years back German used to be written in a font different from the other Roman fonts which made it harder for others to read it fluently. You are right in that fonts don't make a language and Bengali and Gujrati scripts can easily be read by any one who can read Devnagri since essentially they are variations of the same scripts. OTOH Urdu is an anomaly created by sycophant courtiers of Moguls kings to suit the taste of their rulers. Subsequently several poets like Katju used it to write great poetry which would touch the nerve of listeners who did not care the script in which the poet himself penned it. Urdu script was designed to make it easier to be read by Muslim invaders who were by that time neither conversant in their own native language farsi nor the language of the subjects just Macauley introduced the English language to teach the native Indian subjects. Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question ... or is it? From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 15 00:45:58 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 00:45:58 +0000 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067448.23782.7035660217207869985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Tilak published the newspaper Kesari in Marathi, and Marhatta in English, >but nothing in Sanskrit. > Madhav Deshpande I was under the impression that Kesari had a Sanskrit section, if not a separate edition. Perhaps not. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 15 01:10:29 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 01:10:29 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067450.23782.16290075582679921753.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Etymology of Puujaa: ------------------- Mayrhofer suggests the derivation of pUjA from Drav. 'pUcu' (to smear). "If puujaa originally refers to worship, the Dravidian etymology from the root puucu 'to smear' is quite acceptable. We must remember that among the oldest objects of worship in South Asia are the sacred trees, and smearing the tree trunks with red-coloured powders and oils was an integral part of the early tree cult (cf. e.g. J. Auboyer, Daily life in ancient India, 1961, page 154). The Rgvedic sense 'to honour' may be due to a secondary widening of the meaning. " "I just pointed out that smearing (implied by the Dravidian etymology from puucu 'to smear') constitutes an integral part of the early worship of trees. I referred to Auboyer's book, where red-coloured powders and oils are mentioned as the substances smeared on tree trunks. The red-coloured powders surely are substitutes for the blood of sacrificed victims, which continues being smeared on cult idols or trees in connection with bloody offerings. Red powder/blood is applied also on the forehead of human beings on such ritual occasions - this is the origin of the forehead mark (Dravidian poTTu, Sanskrit tilaka, Tiikaa / Tikaa < lalaaTikaa). The antiquity of the forehead mark and its Harappan / Dravidian origin in India is discussed extensively in my book 'Deciphering the Indus script' (1994), page 261-272." (Parpola in Indology). << On Puja The word puja is mainly used in the Agama texts and in the context of berapuja (image worship) located in the temples. Most Paancaratra and quite a few Vaikhanasa Agamas originated in the South and the word is most commonly used in most of these texts in the context of worship. I have not yet checked the etymological connections but it is most likely a Dravidian word. The Tamil word Puusaali (Sk.puujaari) might indicate its Dravidian origins. It is most common for South Indian Hindus to use the word Puja whereas most North Indian Hindus use the word Havan. The word puuja seems more at home in South Indian vernaculars than their counterparts in the North.>> Prof. P. Kumar in Indolgy. In Tamil, puucal means 'war, fight' from the root, puucutal 'to smear'. Skt. pUjAri seems to be from tamil pUcALi 'smearer'. In all of South India, pUcAri/pUjAri refers to nonbrahmin priests who often sacrifice animals to divinities. Dr. Narahari Rao wrote: " 'Pujari', by the way is also used as an epithet to refer to a caste that is equivalent of Elava community of Kerala. Certain section or sub-community of this caste has a certain function in bhutasAnas (the equivalent of temples for a sort of Spirits - a form of 'religious' practice specific to D.K.)." (D.K. = South Kanara). In Tamil, Izham means 'toddy' & Izhavar = toddy-tappers. The caste historians of cANAr/nATAr often connect the name cANAr with cAl- in cAlin2i 'woman who deals in toddy'. cakkiliyar (< Skt. cakra) drummers also go by the name aruntatiyar. cAlin2i and arundhati point to ancient possession rituals by priests and priestesses in front of deities offered with meat and liquor. iizhavas served as pUjAris in old times. "During the cosmogonic New Year festival of Bisket jAtrA at Bhaktapur, Bhairava is erected as the linga in the form of the cross-shaped pole .... On the last day of the year (Caitra masant), a buffalo is sacrificed at the pITha of Bhadra-Kali and the Untouchables (Pore) bring its head up to the central Taumadhi square ..." (p.184, Criminal Gods and Demon Devotees, 1989). Possibly, "pore" caste name in Nepal who are the ex-untouchables performing buffalo sacrifices all across Nepal in Bhadrakali-Bhairava cult, is related with Dravidian names as in Ka. Poleya, Mal. Pulaya, Tam. Pulaiyan. Scholars usually connect the tamil term, pulaiyar 'outcaste' with meat, blood. Telugu "pola" = flesh, smell of flesh, scales of a fish (C. P. Brown's Telugu dictioanry). Mal. "pula" taint, pollution, defilement (esp. by birth or death); pulayan = an outcaste. Kan. and TuLu "pole" (menstrual blood); Ka. poleya 'low caste man'; Tamil pulAl/pulavu 'meat'; puli 'tiger' (whose food is meat), pulai 'stench, bad odour' OTL entry: pulavu 1. dislike, abhorrence; 2. flesh, raw meat, fish; 3. smell of flesh or fish; 4. blood; English words pilaf/pulao, though wrongly assigned to Persian origin, appear to be from Dravidian. Sangam texts, for example, talk of rice mixed with meat ('pulavu') several centuries before. The revered editor of the Sangam tamil classics, Sri. U. V. Saminathaiyar, equates the name, "izicin2an2" who beat drums during festivals with "pulaimakan2" (p. 612, UVS, puRanAn2URu, 1963), and explains 'izicin2a - pulaiyA'; puRanA. 82:3. 289:10 (p. 463). The izicin2an2 "smearer" seems to refer to the sacrificing priests who slaughtered animals like buffalo and then smeared the victim's blood over wooden or stone "posts" representing divine/dead-heros as a way of honoring them. D. L. Eck, Banaras: City of Light, p. 54 "The Buddhist jataka tales, like the Puranas, tell of the worship of yakshas, ... What is especially interesting to us is that in many of these tales various yakshas, yakshIs, and nagas are converted to the worship of the bodhisattva. These yakshas are said to be tree-dwelling deities who are to be propitiated with offerings of meat as well as the traditional incense and flowers. It is clear that the cultus of ancient Banaras included the form of worship called bali. The remnants of this ancient cultus are plainly visible today. When we see the trunks of great trees daubed with orange sindUr, swathed about with string, and sprinkled with water by circumambulating worshippers; when we see a plain stone in a "shrine" consisting of nothing but two bricks surmounted by a slab of rock; when we see worshippers bathing in a pool; when we see them smearing Ganesha or Hanuman with vermilion and sprinkling flowers in his lap - we are seeing something of this city's religious life that is pre-Shaiva, pre-Buddhist, and probably more than three thousand years old." Drav. poTTu or Skt. tilaka are taken from divine memorials smeared with blood (kumkum) and oil. In India oil is connected with death (just like sacrificial blood) and it is never given as gifts in weddings etc. And it appears that pUcALi (skt. pUjAri) = izicin2an2 = "smearer" (of blood/vermilion/oil upon the icons). Grhyasutras mentioning animal sacrifices to honor visiting guests, and Rajatarangini refers to smearing the blood of one's slain enemy on one's forehead indicate the underpinning pan-Indian custom of "puucutal" - smearing. (Cf. pUcal = war) Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Thu Feb 15 10:22:28 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 05:22:28 -0500 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067459.23782.10328059966426864479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Vidyasankar's remarks: I'm not sure how the language Tilak published in proves his politics one way or another, so I'll leave Vidyasankar to explain that in a little more detail before saying anything about that. Regarding Indira Gandhi, his comments are cryptic and a little simplistic. My point was not that she was a member of the RSS but that she appropriated and used many of the key political strategies of the Sangh. I recall reading a quote from Advani from the early 80s specifically talking about how the BJP shed its moderate late-70s Janata Party image and moved to the right partly out of frustration at being outflanked by her in this way. I'd be happy to have a more in-depth discussion about this if any intelligent points can be made, but I'm not interested in commenting on bizarre non sequiturs like: >Surely, India has to be the only democratic country on this earth >where it is a crime for a politician like Indira to acknowledge the >culture of the majority of its people. I will say that this is the (disingenuous and obviously false) cry of wounded majoritarianism against democratic liberalism everywhere, and does not appear to be in response to anything I said. On Rajarshi's remarks: Since Rajarshi doesn't appear to have enough basic background information to distinguish between the Sikh extremists whom Indira supported from the moderate Akali politicians whom she did her best to discredit as anti-national, I don't think there's any point in taking her remarks any farther. On Arun Gupta's remarks: It is probably enough to point out here that Bhindranwale _was_ by sober criteria "anti-national" (at least from an Indian statist/nationalist viewpoint) and "separatist", and it would therefore be futile for anyone, Indira Gandhi included, to try to paint him as such. The people she did try to paint as such in Punjab were the moderate Akali political parties, who were obviously not. I will note that Arun could probably have figured this out for himself if he were interested in a constructive discussion and not in constructing petty polemics. Regards, Rohan. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 15 13:48:15 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 05:48:15 -0800 Subject: Tilak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067467.23782.6646673567568059670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did Tilak have knowledge of enough Sanskrit to publish writings in it? or, he used Sanskrit as is used by politicos? Regards, SM --- Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Tilak published the newspaper Kesari in Marathi, and Marhatta in English, > but nothing in Sanskrit. > Madhav Deshpande > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > In case you didn't know, Tilak published one newspaper in > > Marathi, and another in Sanskrit. [snip] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 15 15:17:45 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 07:17:45 -0800 Subject: Gonda and Puja In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067471.23782.9061888630037816823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gonda has an article on pUjA, but I forget where I have the reference. He has an article called "mantra" which details I have. Try checking in B?hnemann, Gudrun. P?uj?a : a study in Sm?arta ritual, Vienna, '88 Also, Huyler, Stephen P., Meeting God : elements of Hindu devotion Yale University Press, c1999. Good luck, SM --- milton degeorge wrote: > Hi all, > > Would anyone know what the citation of Jan Gonda's article on puja? I have > heard it may have 'puja' in the title? > > Thanks in advance, > > Milton DeGeorge Jr. > Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia > University of Wisconsin-Madison > E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 15 14:10:42 2001 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 09:10:42 -0500 Subject: Tilak In-Reply-To: <20010215134815.3922.qmail@web314.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067469.23782.8002619996163023489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tilak was well versed in Sanskrit as is clear from his Giitaarahasya and writings on Indian astronomy. In the Giitaarahasya, he is engaged in a serious debate with Zankara's Bhaa.sya. He had extensively read Sanskrit literature of different kinds. I do not know of an independent Sanskrit work by Tilak, but he composed a dedicatory verse in Sanskrit at the beginning of his Giitaarahasya, which ends with the line: zriizaaya janataatmane which nicely combines the dedication to God who is of the nature of the people of India. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Did Tilak have knowledge of enough Sanskrit to publish writings > in it? or, he used Sanskrit as is used by politicos? > > Regards, > SM > > --- Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Tilak published the newspaper Kesari in Marathi, and Marhatta in English, > > but nothing in Sanskrit. > > Madhav Deshpande > > > > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > > > In case you didn't know, Tilak published one newspaper in > > > Marathi, and another in Sanskrit. [snip] > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Feb 15 03:46:18 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 09:16:18 +0530 Subject: Khojki & India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067453.23782.6832576317969646621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rohan Oberoi wrote: >Indira Gandhi's well known Hindu mobilisation and minority >demonisation campaigns are only one facet of this. I agree with Mr.Rohan Oberoi-one of the few really secular persons left. Now, many on the list do not agree with him : On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > But what "minority demonization" Oberoi is talking about? Actually, it is certain most list members are aware of (although it is surprising many `Indian academic researchers' pretend not to know of) Mrs.Gandhi's mass murder of 300,000 Sikhs and her attack on the Sikh Golden Temple (http://burningpunjab.com). Likewise, her son Sanjay Gandhy personally directed the enforced sterlisation of thousands of Muslim and Dalit men as `population restriction'. Surely our `official historians' know that more than 90% of all men sterilised by him (no doubt with the support of his mother) were Muslim and Dalit, and that this program was suggested to Sanjay by his caste-brothers from the Sangh? : - "[T]he dominant and most influential segment of the sangh parivar leadership had countenanced Sanjay Gandhi's coercive family planning campaign; as far as the RSS establishment was concerned Sanjay Gandhi was the first ``leader'' with guts to target the Muslim slums and bastis." { Harish Khare, The Hindu, June 14, 2000 http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/06/14/stories/05142523.htm } I challenge anybody to name a woman anywhere in world history who has killed more people than Indira. There is very little difference between the Cong and the BJP: Both are dominated by upper-caste Hindi speakers (esp. Brahmins) from Hindi-Cow-Belt, both are almost fanatic in their religious zeal, both are violently anti-Tamil and anti-Urdu, both are fanatically pro-Hindi/pro-Sanskrit, and both have slaughtered millions of innocent persons not belonging to the sacred Hindi-Aryan race. If anything, the BJP's 10,000 murdered Muslims pales into peanuts compared to Congress' 300,000 Sikhs and 70,000 Muslims. Yeah, so Cong is `secular'. Right. Then, BJP is really secular. How will history judge mankind's greatest female killer? Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, Senr. Minister, Singapore, says : - "...to win the Hindi-Hindu vote in North India, [Indira] consciously or otherwise brought Hindu chauvinism to the surface and allowed it to become a legitimate force in Indian politics" - He says her actions led to the demolition of Babri Masjid. - "She was more determined and ruthless a political leader than Margaret Thatcher, Sirimavo Bandaranaike or Benazir Bhutto " {http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/09/18/stories/03180005.htm} Perhaps, Sanghis/Congis may now consider if Mr. Lee Yew is a `Talibani' or a `Paki'? A suggested etymology a la Pandit Oak: Arabic `Yehudi' -> English/Angulisthani `Jew' -> Singapori `Yew'. There are many upper-caste families in the Hindee-Cow-belt which have some some brothers/sisters in the Congress, others in the BJP. Rajiv Gandhy's cousin Mr. Arun Nehru is a BJP member, and there are truckloads of such examples from Nehru-Gandhy family. The Scindia family is another point. One mother in BJP, her own son in the Congress. So here we have the proof: 50 year Compani rule (1789-1947) + 40 years Congi rule (1947-1990s) + 5 year BJPi rule (1990s-2000) = > 100 year Sanghi rule So 100 year Sanghi rule, leading to Hindee enforcement, Babri, 300,000 Sikh graves,etc. 100 years of Congi/Sanghi rule has led to the present bias in Indian history, science and Indology. Another article by Mr.A.A.Engineer states: - "Indira... had even planned to inaugurate the Bharat Mata temple constructed by the VHP in Mathura" -"Indira... even tried to court the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, a RSS front... after conversion of a few Dalit families to Islam in Meenakshipuram district of Tamil Nadu." - Indira Gandhy demolished scores of Muslim buildings : - "His [Sanjay's] policies of forced family planning and demolition of structures belonging to minorities and weaker sections of society alienated them from Indira Gandhi." {ref.:`The BJP & its 20 years,' Asghar Ali Engineer, http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/06/01/stories/05012523.htm and `The Congress(I), secularism & minorities,' http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/temp/stories/05042523.htm } On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > [Indira] ... was in some sense more Hindu that her father Indira was willing to prostrate herself for one and a half hours in front of Pandit Saraswati, which is probably enough to prove that she was"Hindu": "Indira Gandhi ...prostrated before Sri Chandrashekhara Saraswati, the Kanchi Math Paramacharya, for 90 minutes..." S.Swamy, { http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/06/13/stories/05132524.htm } But then, her father was a Pundit himself, so he was probably more devout. Had he not died of syphilis by that day, maybe she would have prostrated herself before Panditji himself. On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > ... but she married a Zoroastrian and her two sons married a > Christian and a Sikh girl. Feroze Gandhy came from a family of Zoroastrian priests. Zoroastrian priesthood is hereditary, being preserved to the priestly caste of old Iran - the direct Iranian counterpart to India's Brahmins. They perform fire rituals similar to Vaidik worship. The Zoroastrian Brahmins were given shelter in Gujarat by Vaidik Brahmins when the former fled Islamic Iran c.700AD. Her mother - more a Sanatanist - did not accept Feroze's Brahminhood, and never reconciled herself. Her father however, being a devout Vaidik Pandit, accepted Feroze as a Brahmin. Also, most Vaidik Brahmins accepted Feroze as a Brahmin, and accordingly the marriage was performed as per Vaidik rituals. Indira's sons were hence both Brahmin, despite the Gandhi surname. Samar From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Feb 15 04:06:59 2001 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 09:36:59 +0530 Subject: Multilingual Scholars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067457.23782.16479346901620539268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Narayan R.Joshi wrote: > If Urdu spread from the camp of Mahamood of Gazna from > Afghanistan, then why does Urdu have 80% Sanskrit related words? Both Sanskrit and Farsi belong to the Indo-Iranian group of languages. Often, it is possible to trace an Urdu word to both a Sanskrit source, as well as a Persian source. So Aryan Hindus and Muslims both use the same word, Hindus being satisfied with the Sanskrit derivation, Muslims with the Farsi. Often, one can find a `Hindi' dictionary giving a Sanskrit derivation for a particular word in common use, while `Urdu' dictionaries give a Farsi derivation for the same word. Both communities understand the meaning, and continue to use it with no objection from religious leaders. What you found to be 80% Sanskrit can easily be transformed into 80% Farsi by an ordinary Farsi-Urdu scholar. > Why Urdu was promoted by Turkish kings instead of promoting their > own different Turkish language? Urdu is so full of Turkic words (30-50%) that it would have been easily understood by Turks - `Urdu' itself is a Turkic word. They would have treated it as their own language. However, they did not `lose' their own Turkic tongues. Babur wrote his memoirs in Chagatai Turkic. This is analagous to some German communities in America. > To expand Urdu/Hindi market is the constructive activity. However it > seems to me we lack this kind of constructive thinking. In Marathi, > there is proverb-"TulA nako, malA nako, ghAl kutrAlA". It means-I do > not want to eat. I will not allow you to eat. Let us throw it to the > dog. Are not we people from the Indian heritage doing exactly the same > in arguing about Urdu,Hindi and Sanskrit?May Allah change our attitude > and let us hope Urdu will spread all over the middle east from Lebanon > to Afghanistan!Amen! N.R.Joshi Agreed, that this kind of bickering perhaps does not benefit either side. Perhaps, some kind of agreement may be reached: Hindus accept Urdu is derived from Persian in Afghanistan and that Urdu was historically the link language across North India, in exchange, Muslims learn Sanskrit and assure its propagation. In that case, may Sanskrit spread across to Afghanistsan as well. Samar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 15 13:26:37 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 13:26:37 +0000 Subject: learning scripts (Was: the farce that is Urdu) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067461.23782.2575327355552705087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > The computer scientist and philosopher Douglas Hofstadter discusses > the question of what is the "essence" or "minimum" of a letter in an > alphabet in one of his books, I forget which. That will be Metamagical Themas. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 15 13:30:40 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 13:30:40 +0000 Subject: Farces and Khojki & India Gandhi's "minority demonisation" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067464.23782.6250167385080917980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These thread have run their course. Do not post further messages on these topics. iti lo.t -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Thu Feb 15 19:13:45 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 14:13:45 -0500 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067474.23782.1216886226003100746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is most common for South Indian Hindus to use the word Puja whereas most North Indian Hindus use the word Havan. The word puuja seems more at home in South Indian vernaculars than their counterparts in the North.>> Prof. P. Kumar in Indolgy. ***************** This is patently wrong stereo-typing. I would urge dravidologists to spend some time in north indian villages rather than quote some p. kumar. Also most people know that tilak was well versed in sanskrit. I would again urge draviologists to crane their neck northwards a little. RB From bprecia at COLMEX.MX Thu Feb 15 20:14:26 2001 From: bprecia at COLMEX.MX (Benjamin Preciado) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 14:14:26 -0600 Subject: Yucatan caste Message-ID: <161227067482.23782.7570208539129148486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Satkurunathan thre are plenty of good books on the ancient peoples of Meso-america. The classic account of their society is: Fr. Bernardino de Sahagun, Florentine Codex. General History of the things of New Spain. Found in several editions. For the Maya one of the latest and best is: The Maya. Edited by Peter Schmidt and M. de la Garza, RCS Libri, 1998. also: Linda Schele, Forest of Kings. (sorry but I do not have the details of the edition) greetings Benjamin Preciado. -----Mensaje original----- De: Raveen Satkurunathan [mailto:tawady at YAHOO.COM] Enviado el: Martes, 13 de Febrero de 2001 04:37 p.m. Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Asunto: Re: Yucatan caste On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:46:28 -0600, Benjamin Preciado wrote: >The Maya did not have any caste system. The New Spain society was divided in >castes by the europeans and this system was not taken from indigenous >peoples. It was applied all over the territory and not only in Yucatan. It >was based on race lines and the europeans had the highest ranking, >indigenous peoples, african slaves and all the posible intermarriage descent >coming in the lower rankings. >The indian revolt of Yucatan in the mid XIX century was called the Caste War >because this division of society was still remembered then. >Benjamin Preciado Dear Dr. Preciado, While agreeing that the Spanish colonialists did introduce a Caste like system in Latin America, we should still keep in mind that the indigenous societies of what is today Latin America did have a societies divided along class, mostly hereditary. I think what Dr. Ganesan is trying to find out is the about the concept of pollution with respect to the kinds of jobs they did (by birth) in determining their position in pre-Spanish indigenous societies specifically with respect to the many Maya groups. I am pretty sure that there should be relevant literature in this field. Anthropology journals dedicated to Latin American pre-colonial societies should be of some help. Thanks Raveen From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Feb 15 19:19:36 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 14:19:36 -0500 Subject: Sorry Message-ID: <161227067476.23782.11129883802398889368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Puja and Havan are not the same. We complain so much about Weterners not knowing enough about our culture or having misconceptions about it. I have oftn been surprised by how little many people from the North know about the South (of India). From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Thu Feb 15 19:35:24 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 14:35:24 -0500 Subject: Sorry Message-ID: <161227067480.23782.10913124272502048968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Puja and Havan are not the same. We complain so much about Weterners not knowing enough about our culture or having misconceptions about it. I have oftn been surprised by how little many people from the North know about the South (of India). *************** Every hindu knows that puja and havan are not the same. It reflects a very insulated mind set of dravidologists when they equate havan and puja when it comes to north indians. RB From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Feb 15 23:11:57 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 18:11:57 -0500 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? Message-ID: <161227067484.23782.10440870779528467310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some criticisms : 1. I object to the usage of Hindee / Hindoo. This is uncalled for. 2. Before anyone criticises others, please define secularism. 3. Harish Khare's Ashgar Ali Engineer's articles / comments along with those from TheHindu are very wellknown for their anti-Hindu bias. 4. Muslims in India are notorious for their high population growth rate. This is also a contentious issue in many nations. Their objection to controlling population, like all their arguments / reasoning / counter-arguments et al come from Quran, to which they have submitted their ability to think rationally. - Suresh From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Thu Feb 15 23:24:49 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 18:24:49 -0500 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? In-Reply-To: <009c01c097a4$c07815e0$d847e740@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <161227067487.23782.6044462408103394622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" has written as follows: >1. I object to the usage of Hindee / Hindoo. This is uncalled for. This is not the only instance of his name calling. >2. Before anyone criticises others, please define secularism. Samir Abbas is known through his plethora of postings to be a bull in the china shop and a rabid Islamist more suited to the filth that permeates SCI and has nothing to do with the definition of secularism. I have not read any of his posting to have contributed anything to the scholarly discussions on this list. --- Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: In judging others, folks will work overtime for no pay. ... Charles Edwin Carruthers From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Feb 15 23:34:31 2001 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 18:34:31 -0500 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067489.23782.15571207101582469232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Sambalpuri [language spoken in Western and parts of Southern Orissa, where KhambesvarI is worshipped by the DumAls or DumbAls] the word means 'to kill'. PUjA has certainly something to do with sacrifice and may be smearing of the sacrificial blood. Jogesh Panda __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU Thu Feb 15 23:45:18 2001 From: jsharma at HERMES.GC.PEACHNET.EDU (J.B. Sharma) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 18:45:18 -0500 Subject: Hindi as a farce Message-ID: <161227067491.23782.13561374322781185275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listmembers, Hindi remains a language which is the lingua- franca for hundreds of millions in contemporary India. It has a beautiful literature and is a very expressive language dear to many who are proud of its roots in Sanskrit. There is nothing insidious about that as it represents the personal choice of millions in a free country. As Indic polity has just become representative of its masses just a few decades ago, the evolution of Hindi has been dictated by the will of this polity. This is the essence of democratic process. To call it a farce is equivalent to representing a personal disain for the language, which once again is a personal choice. This is just fine, and it is better to not have anything to do with a language you dislike, but to make polemical proclamations dispariging a language in the name of scholarship is quite sad indeed ! Urdu is a beautiful language too with its own tradition of poetry and prose. It too is a product of historical forces, just like any other language. The word 'Ordo' is the Turco- Mongol name for a military camp, and the genisis of this language was indeed in the military camps of the Turks and later the Mongols. These camps were full of slaves captured as booty of war. There were way many more slaves in these camps than the turco-mongol masters. These slaves were of Indian origin and their language was rooted in the north-Indian dialect. As time went by, the turco-mongol masters retained their turkik and persian languages as the language of the new aristocrats, but the language of the 'booty of war', forced converts, and willing converts remained rooted in Indic dialect. With time, and the creation of this new muslim culture in the Sultanate of Hind, and Mughal India Urdu has generated its own literary corpus. So, neither Hindi, nor Urdu is a farce, and both are dear to their speakers, very much like the case for anyone holding the language and culture they were born into as dear to them. It really is not a subject for rational debate. Best to all, J.B. Sharma From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 15 19:32:23 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 19:32:23 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067478.23782.14699309046720587429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the smearing of blood of sacrficial animals, I got a reply from an Indologist off-line. -NG ----------------------------- >I think the answer is yes. You can check it from: >Biardeau, Madeleine, 1989. Histoires de poteaux: Variations v?diques >autour de la d?esse hindoue. (Publications de l'?cole Fran?aise >d'Extreme-Orient, 154.) Paris: Ecole Fran?aise d'Extreme-Orient. >With best regards, [...] _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Feb 16 01:24:46 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 20:24:46 -0500 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? Message-ID: <161227067498.23782.84112632636203083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vaNakkam. though i do not post most often, i read the mails here with avid interest. it is a learning experience for me about a lot of matters, that i did not get to learn in my school. some i understand, some i dont. but i hope this will certainly make me more aware of the topics. i sometimes wonder why the list moderator suddenly posts a mail to stop the further discussion about a topic/thread. of course there are many more topics to discuss but perhaps a thread should be allowed to die its own natural end than forcibly stop it. i thought the mail from SameerAbbas must get a strong rebuttal but reading the moderator's request to stop that thread as well as a good description of abbas' earlier mails from aditya, i shall be ignoring the future mails from sammer like i ignore rohan oberoi's emails on all other forums !!!!!!! a general perception one gets from reading newspapers, e-newspapers, internet sites, & the other mass media is that a lot of western influenced stuff gets imposed about india, hinduism and hindus. sadly, most of it is negative and stereo-typed. this is an idealogical war of the minds. while western positive contribution must be acknowledged, their negative influence must be strongly condemned. this should not be taken as an attack on the western scholars, for the underlying stuff being questioned is the influence of the mind/thoughts and not the person. anbudan LSK From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Fri Feb 16 01:37:19 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 20:37:19 -0500 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067500.23782.17232498716025703566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rohit Chopra has written as follows: >2. Please define what you mean by 'rationally' and why you reach the bizarre >conclusion that believing in the Quran means foregoing the ability to think >rationally. > >3. Whom are 'Muslims' notorious among? Perhaps among communal , prejudiced >people like you. Spare us the offensively communal sentiments please. Points very well taken. Communalism just breeds more communalism. This list has unfortunately become a debating ground for communalist of both sides and no one is holier than other. I had earlier touched the points raised by Suresh that demonstrated how he came to react the way he did. The words Hindee and Hindoo are used only to lampoon persons of certain group and are as offensive to them as Nigger, Jap. Paki or Jewboy are to other groups treated similarly in other parts of the world. Let us be rational and not offend the sensitivities of any other group howsoever one may hate that personally. Just as an aside, in my personal view, blind faith in any kind of scripture whether it is Koran, Gita, Bible, Dhammpad or Communist Manifesto can dull one's rational approach and ability to discuss its shortcomings. --- Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Most often a key ingredient in success is knowing what advice to completely ignore. From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Feb 16 03:09:29 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 22:09:29 -0500 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? Message-ID: <161227067506.23782.15587145622204329804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vaNakkam I would not like to debate with the likes of RohitChopra and RohanOberoi, based on the emails they have sent on other forums. It is no small wonder that SAJA [http://www.saja.org] gets criticised as a pseudo-secular-leftist organisation by many. I consider it a waste of my time, waste of online resources, and wasting others' too, in debating with these two in particular. The reason(s) 1. I am reminded of a proverb - 1000 men may lead a horse to a pond of water but none cannot make it drink. 2. Many elders advice thus : one should either know by oneself or atleast by learning or from others. if not, this person is just useless / unchangeable. - in tamil, it goes as "thanakkA theriyaNum, illaiya sollith theriyaNum, irandum illaiya, ithu thirunthAtha jenmam thAn". Hope this suffices. Learned members of this list would understand the above proverb and its usage in this context. ************************************************************* - http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/nov/27rajeev.htm and - from - http://202.54.124.133/news/2000/aug/23gopi.htm Given that the book is pregnant with factual errors such as the ones discussed, it becomes necessary to ask if Margolis can see straight, let alone think straight. And how is the book released? To rave reviews. How is the author of this tome rewarded? Well, he wins the SAJA ( South Asian Journalists Association) Award for his writing on India. ************************************************************* Kind regards - Suresh - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lsk/messagesearch?query=quran - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lsk/messagesearch?query=koran ----- Original Message ----- From: Rohit Chopra To: Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 07:39 PM Subject: Re: one of the few ..... ???? > >4. Muslims in India are notorious for their high population > >growth rate. This is also a contentious issue in many nations. > >Their objection to controlling population, like all their > >arguments / reasoning / counter-arguments et al come from Quran, > >to which they have submitted their ability to think rationally. > > > Suresh, > > 1. Have you read the Quran? > > 2. Please define what you mean by 'rationally' and why you reach the bizarre > conclusion that believing in the Quran means foregoing the ability to think > rationally. > > 3. Whom are 'Muslims' notorious among? Perhaps among communal , prejudiced > people like you. Spare us the offensively communal sentiments please. > > Rohit ************************************************************ ----- Original Message ----- From: L. Suresh Kumar-LSK To: Indology List Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 06:11 PM Subject: one of the few ..... ???? > Some criticisms : > > 1. I object to the usage of Hindee / Hindoo. This is uncalled for. > > 2. Before anyone criticises others, please define secularism. > > 3. Harish Khare's Ashgar Ali Engineer's articles / comments along > with those from TheHindu are very wellknown for their anti-Hindu bias. > > 4. Muslims in India are notorious for their high population > growth rate. This is also a contentious issue in many nations. > Their objection to controlling population, like all their > arguments / reasoning / counter-arguments et al come from Quran, > to which they have submitted their ability to think rationally. > > - Suresh ************************************************************ From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET Fri Feb 16 03:55:16 2001 From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 01 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: Lhasa to Nalanda - journey time by foot Message-ID: <161227067516.23782.18277115299126540013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm hoping that somebody on the list can answer this question. About how long would it take to walk from Lhasa or its environs to Nalanda in Bihar? References to 20th century journeys by foot in either direction between some specified location in India to or from the Lhasa area would help , such as books about Tibetan refugees' experiences. The aim is to form an idea of how long it might have taken the Buddhist monk zaantarakSita to travel to Tibet, and return in the 7th century. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America Telephone: 215-747-6204 email: emstern at bellatlantic.net From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 00:00:19 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 00:00:19 +0000 Subject: Hindi Message-ID: <161227067493.23782.10147158638266236184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >appropriated and used many of the key political strategies of the >Sangh. I recall reading a quote from Advani from the early 80s >specifically talking about how the BJP shed its moderate late-70s >Janata Party image and moved to the right partly out of frustration at >being outflanked by her in this way. I'd be happy to have a more Since this thread has already been pronounced to have run its due course, I'll limit myself to saying only this much - Co-opting the opposition, in order to disarm it, is a standard strategy adopted by the world's politicians. A particularly successful one, in many places. It is always pragmatism that wins over rigid ideology. In the USA, one aspect of this gains respectability, in the name of "bipartisanship". Secondly, Hindi language policy has never been decided by any Hindu right-wing leader. If those who are secular-minded can only see conspiracy theories everywhere, even within the ranks of those who introduced the word secular into the Indian Constitution, need one wonder why there has been a backlash to bring the real right-wing leaders into power? I presume, Rohan, you would not be able to see any difference between me and those who really support the VHP. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But if a mere liking for the Sanskrit language means that I am with the "Sanghis", so be it. Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 00:39:57 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 00:39:57 +0000 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? Message-ID: <161227067495.23782.9979374219772686741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >4. Muslims in India are notorious for their high population >growth rate. This is also a contentious issue in many nations. >Their objection to controlling population, like all their >arguments / reasoning / counter-arguments et al come from Quran, >to which they have submitted their ability to think rationally. > Suresh, 1. Have you read the Quran? 2. Please define what you mean by 'rationally' and why you reach the bizarre conclusion that believing in the Quran means foregoing the ability to think rationally. 3. Whom are 'Muslims' notorious among? Perhaps among communal , prejudiced people like you. Spare us the offensively communal sentiments please. Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Feb 16 02:03:24 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 02:03:24 +0000 Subject: Hindi as a farce Message-ID: <161227067502.23782.15868567308173489313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J.B. Sharma wrote: > The word 'Ordo' is the Turco- > Mongol name for a military camp. This is the accepted immediate source/sense of "urdu" but in Mongolian "ordu" also means 'the residence of the ruler' and 'palace'. It is also the source of the English word "horde" -- one of the few Mongolian words adopted in English -- as in the famed Golden Horde (altan ordu). Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Feb 16 02:18:05 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 02:18:05 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067504.23782.7131967262623145799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jogesh Panda wrote: > In Sambalpuri [language spoken in Western and parts of Southern Orissa, where KhambesvarI is worshipped by the DumAls or DumbAls] the word means 'to kill'. PUjA has certainly something to do with sacrifice and may be smearing of the sacrificial blood. ******* Can this also be connected with the Kondh Meriah sacrifices in Orissa which once involved human sacrifice until the 1850s when the British (interfering as usual) outlawed the practice and encouraged the substitution of the buffalo which is still used. As far as I understand, at the time of sacrifices, the victims were tied to a ceremonial pillar or stake. Also while the Kondhs did the sacrificing, it is said that it was the Dombhs who procured the victims and traded them. Also, human sacrifice was practised in the highland region of Phulbani, and much of Koraput and Kalahandi but not in the highlands of Ganjam whose inhabitants instead sactioned female infanticide. According to those Kondhs who worshipped the goddess Tari, it was she who taught humans about agriculture, hunting and warfare with iron weapons. When the earth was being created, it was an unstable morass. One day while Tari was peeling vegetables, she cut her finger and the blood fell on the ground which solidified and became fertile. Seeing the improvement this had caused, she told the Kondh to cut up all of her body. The Kondhas refused but instead began to obtain and sacrifice people from elsewhere. It was thought that no fertility was possible without human blood falling on the ground. Eventually, the Tari sect came to believe that human sacrifice was necessary for maintaining the well-being of the whole world, not just of their community. Those Kondhs who worshipped the male god Bura were the ones who practised female infanticide instead as they had a less flattering version of Tari's role in things -- women being a source of misfortune and hence surplus females ought to be eliminated. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 03:19:15 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 03:19:15 +0000 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? Message-ID: <161227067509.23782.10542324734315145062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >4. Muslims in India are notorious for their high population >growth rate. I think an Indologist mentioned in this list that Muslim population growth rate is not very much higher compared to Hindus. What are the stat figures? I agree that these postings have less and less Indological content. Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 03:27:25 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 03:27:25 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067511.23782.6361647123156017550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The smearing of buffalo sacrifical blood on posts/stones was/is common among the least studied populations of South India. English newspapers or elite castes do not write about them, and naturally westerners are least aware of them. "It is estimated, and probably conservatively, that eighty percent of the people of South India address their worship almost exclusively to minor, i.e. local and village deities, and yet these deities receive little attention in the studies of Hinduism." (W. Th. Elmore, Dravidian Gods in Modern Hinduism, 1925, p. ix). The sad thing is Humanities depts. in Indian universities have been "killed" by politics and issues of caste in post-1947 India. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 03:34:46 2001 From: cosmicomic at HOTMAIL.COM (Rohit Chopra) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 03:34:46 +0000 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? Message-ID: <161227067514.23782.5729598899433335395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Suresh You are completely incapable of accepting a point of view other than your own pro-RSS, Muslim-bashing viewpoint. As such you are fundamentally incapable of debate, since you cannot obviously rise above your own interests. Also, your emails seem to follow the same pattern on every list: when you cannot offer an answer to a perfectly reasonable question, you resort to personal attacks, meaningless railing against 'leftists', 'secularists' etc, and a lofty holier-than-thou attitude. As for your patrician refusal to 'debate', the pleasure, dear Suresh, is entirely mine, more than you can imagine. I may not be as learned as you are, and thus may not get what you perceive as the wonderfully profound significance of your proverb. However, I have the satisfaction of knowing that, unlike you, I do NOT need to make the Muslim population of India the scapegoat for anything and everything in this world. My apologies to members on this list as this mail has no direct Indological significance. Regards Rohit _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 16 14:11:06 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 06:11:06 -0800 Subject: Kanchi visit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067521.23782.4835595516192652965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Dr. Samar Abbas wrote: > Indira was willing to prostrate herself for one and a half hours in front > of Pandit Saraswati, which is probably enough to prove that she was"Hindu": > > "Indira Gandhi ...prostrated before Sri Chandrashekhara Saraswati, > the Kanchi Math Paramacharya, for 90 minutes..." > S.Swamy, > { http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/06/13/stories/05132524.htm } Did Madame Indira fall asleep? Like Reagan used to do. The old mutt swamis are not allowed to look at widows, but sometimes exceptions need to be made. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA Fri Feb 16 16:18:48 2001 From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 11:18:48 -0500 Subject: Vaishnavism Message-ID: <161227067532.23782.10914383474456157702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I will be grateful if anyone could suggest books that deal with the art, culture and ethos of Vaishnavism, that would include Shri Vaishnavism, Pushtimarga Vaishnavism and Chaitanya Vaishnavism. Thank you. Harsha V. Dehejia From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET Fri Feb 16 18:11:22 2001 From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 13:11:22 -0500 Subject: Lhasa to Nalanda - journey time by foot Message-ID: <161227067527.23782.16716215450455110065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Richard, Thank you for the prompt reply. The Free Library of Philadelphia apparently has a copy. So far as I have been able to determine, there is little or no information about the route zaantarakSita may have followed. He is generally thought to have lived and worked at Nalanda, but one or both of the Tibetan accounts situate him in "Nepal". I have developed a somewhat naive notion that he would have crossed the Kathmandu Valley on the way to Lhasa or environs from Nalanda, but my knowledge of the geography of the regions involved is so limited that I do not know what route or routes may have been established in his time. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America Telephone: 215-747-6204 email: emstern at bellatlantic.net Richard B Mahoney replied: Dear Eliot, On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:55:16PM -0500, Elliot M. Stern wrote: > I'm hoping that somebody on the list can answer this question. About how > long would it take to walk from Lhasa or its environs to Nalanda in Bihar? > References to 20th century journeys by foot in either direction between some > specified location in India to or from the Lhasa area would help , such as > books about Tibetan refugees' experiences. > > The aim is to form an idea of how long it might have taken the Buddhist monk > zaantarakSita to travel to Tibet, and return in the 7th century. > I'm not sure of "Saantarak.sita's route but for that of Marpa the Translator you could consult pp. xxvii ff. of: @Book{trungpa:life, editor = "Ch\"{o}gyam Trungpa", title = "The Life of Marpa The Translator: Seeing Accomplishes All", publisher = "Shambhala", stitle = "The Life of Marpa", year = "1995", key = "trungpa:1995", address = "Boston \& London", note = "a trans. of `Mar pa rnam thar' by Gtsang smyon He ru ka (1452--1507) by the N\={a}land\={a} Translation Committee under the direction of Ch\"{o}gyam Trungpa", } His journeys seem to have been protracted for various reasons not the least of which would have been the difficulty of acclimatisation. Many regards, Richard Mahoney -- ------------------------ Richard Mahoney ------------------------- 78 Jeffreys Rd +64-3-351-5831 Christchurch New Zealand --------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------- From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Feb 16 21:03:52 2001 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 16:03:52 -0500 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067537.23782.2046853503823916127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: > > Can this also be connected with the Kondh Meriah sacrifices in Orissa > which once involved human sacrifice until the 1850s when the British > (interfering as usual) outlawed the practice and encouraged the > substitution of the buffalo which is still used... Could as well be. The word 'meriah' is from *mer as in SBP [Sambalpuri] 'merkhamb', the central pillar on the rice paddy thrashing floor. The DumAls/DumbAls are, however, not related to the Dombs, but instead, are related to another farming tribe by the name of 'kulutA' or 'kulitA, thought to have descended from the kulUtas of Vedic/Classical times [at least so held by a famous kulitA, Professor Prahlad Pradhan, the Pali scholar]. Best wishes, Jogesh Panda __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From kready at BREARLEY.ORG Fri Feb 16 21:06:23 2001 From: kready at BREARLEY.ORG (Karen Ready) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 16:06:23 -0500 Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: <161227067539.23782.12787629092369406476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please can someone identify the source of satyam. brahmaa / jaganmithya / jivo brahmaiva na para Many thanks. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 16 16:12:55 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 16:12:55 +0000 Subject: one of the few ..... ???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067523.23782.11502508653778632652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is another thread which should stop now. Thank you. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Fri Feb 16 04:13:45 2001 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 17:13:45 +1300 Subject: Lhasa to Nalanda - journey time by foot In-Reply-To: <"from emstern"@BELLATLANTIC.NET> Message-ID: <161227067518.23782.7719392455188846575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Eliot, On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:55:16PM -0500, Elliot M. Stern wrote: > I'm hoping that somebody on the list can answer this question. About how > long would it take to walk from Lhasa or its environs to Nalanda in Bihar? > References to 20th century journeys by foot in either direction between some > specified location in India to or from the Lhasa area would help , such as > books about Tibetan refugees' experiences. > > The aim is to form an idea of how long it might have taken the Buddhist monk > zaantarakSita to travel to Tibet, and return in the 7th century. > I'm not sure of "Saantarak.sita's route but for that of Marpa the Translator you could consult pp. xxvii ff. of: @Book{trungpa:life, editor = "Ch\"{o}gyam Trungpa", title = "The Life of Marpa The Translator: Seeing Accomplishes All", publisher = "Shambhala", stitle = "The Life of Marpa", year = "1995", key = "trungpa:1995", address = "Boston \& London", note = "a trans. of `Mar pa rnam thar' by Gtsang smyon He ru ka (1452--1507) by the N\={a}land\={a} Translation Committee under the direction of Ch\"{o}gyam Trungpa", } His journeys seem to have been protracted for various reasons not the least of which would have been the difficulty of acclimatisation. Many regards, Richard Mahoney -- ------------------------ Richard Mahoney ------------------------- 78 Jeffreys Rd +64-3-351-5831 Christchurch New Zealand --------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------- From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 18:08:11 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 18:08:11 +0000 Subject: cAkrika and cakkiliyar Message-ID: <161227067525.23782.7000594097680968624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Raveen wrote: >>Is Arundathiyar of Tamil Nadu same as Cakkilliar ? Interestingly, Indic tradition record arundhatI as outcaste. arundhatIyar = cakkiliyar. "A myth preserved in the Skanda-PurANa (7.1.129.5-33) makes Arundhati the daughter of a lowcaste CANDAla, whom the Vedic sages asked for food during a drought. Food was given after the chief sage VasiSTha had married the girl called AkSamAlA ('garland of dice/eyes'). She practised austerity and became so brilliant that her lustre obstructed the sun (arkabimbam arundhata), whence her new name ArundhatI. This legend is referred to in Manu-SmRti 9.23: AkSamAlA, a woman of the lowest birth, being united to VasiSTha, ... became worthy of honor (transl. Buhler 1886:331)" (p. 256, Parpola, Saavitrii and Resurrection: The ideal of Devoted wife, Her forehead mark, SatI, and Human Sacrifice in Epic-PurANic, Vedic, Harappan-Dravidian and Near Eastern perspectives, Helsinki, 1998) akSamAlA, ('many eyed girl') signifies several yonis (Cf. Indra having 1000 eyes(=yonis) after Gotama cursed) and points to her devadasi relations. In Tamil, Mariyamman is always called "aayiram kaNNuLLa tAy" (= 1000 eyed lady). For Mari/Ellamma legends, see my postings on viRaliyar dancers, and Goddess Ellamma's devadasi connections. Interestingly, el- in Tamil means 'light' and she loves "fire-pot" offerings and devadasi duty is lustration by waving 'pot-lamp' (kuTaviLakku). No wonder akshamAlA/arundhatI in Sanskrit literature is lustrous obstructing the sun. Earlier I wrote: <<< Consider the Online Tamil Lexicon entries: cAlin2i 01 1. woman employed in pronouncing oracles under the influence of a spirit; 2. wife of VasiSTha cAlin2i 03 woman who deals in toddy aruntati * 1. name of the wife of vasis2t2ha, considered a paragon of chastity; 2. the scarcely visible star alcor of the great bear, supposed to be arundhati transformed aruntatIyar cobblers (TLS) The caste of Cakkiliyars calling themselves as aruntatiyar is probably related with their function as drummers and shamans in festivals of ancient Andhra Pradesh. The buffalo sacrifice to goddesses (like Durga) are conducted by their members. Shaman priestesses in Classical Tamil sangam literature are called cAlin2i(=arundhati). Regards, N. Ganesan >>> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Fri Feb 16 19:15:18 2001 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 20:15:18 +0100 Subject: Lhasa to Nalanda - journey time by foot Message-ID: <161227067529.23782.4768867868143450233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Elliot M. Stern wrote: > The aim is to form an idea of how long it might have taken the Buddhist monk > zaantarakSita to travel to Tibet, and return in the 7th century. > What do you mean in this case by "and return"? ZaantarakSita is thought to have died in Tibet after having been kicked by a horse. I tried to look up information on ZaantarakSita's travel but in vain. I only consulted the sources easily at hand, namely Mipham's commentary on ZaantarakSita's MadhyamakAlaMkAra; Snellgrove's Indo-Tibetan Buddhism; and The Blue Annals. However, I found the following reference regarding Atiza (982-1054), who travelled from Vikramalazila (at the Ganges) to Western Tibet (Guge) arriving in 1042: The monks of Vikramalazila seems only to have allowed the Tibetan escort to bring Atiza to Tibet but to return him within three years. The Tibetan biography of Atiza explains that according to dGe-bzes Lag-sor-pa, this would allow one year for each travel and one year for staying in Tibet. Another Tibetan source (ZaG rom), however, gives the timespan allowed as being only nine months (which thus also would seem plausible to a Tibetan writer/reader). These informations are found in the biography of Atiza; cf. Helmuth Eimer, "Rnam Thar Rgyas Pa: Materialen zu einer Biographie des Atiza", vol. 1, Asiatische Forschungen, band 67, Otto Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden 1979, p.227. I seem to remember having heard that the usual travel on foot/horse from Lhasa to Bodhgaya takes appr. 8 weeks in the good season - unless time was required for resting (and climate accommodation) in Kathmandu. There were several traderoutes that could be followed. A major route went along the Khali Khandaki gorge along the Western side of the Anna Purna mountains in Nepal via present day Mustang. I hope these few informations are of use. Sincerely, Ulrich T. Kragh Ph.D. student University of Copenhagen From f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU Fri Feb 16 19:25:13 2001 From: f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 20:25:13 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Q:_Mayrhofer's_W=C3=B6rterbuch?= Message-ID: <161227067534.23782.3615594866816369030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, it appears from a catalogue that a new edition of Mayrhofer's Etymological Dictionary is being published. 1. Is it significantly different from the previous one? 2. How much of it appeared yet? (According to the catalogue, vols. 1-2 and fasc. 1-3 of vol 3 [1998], but it does not say which letters of the alphabet have been covered.) Thanks for any info, Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at ludens.elte.hu From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Feb 17 01:25:49 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 20:25:49 -0500 Subject: Kanchi visit Message-ID: <161227067549.23782.12988265009538917665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I dont think anyone can become a Hindu or be called a Hindu just because they fall at the feet of Hindu saint !! This is just ridiculous !! Wonder how easily people come up with strange and stupid conclusions !!!! - Suresh > --- Dr. Samar Abbas wrote: > > Indira was willing to prostrate herself for one and a half hours in front > > of Pandit Saraswati, which is probably enough to prove that she was"Hindu": > > > > "Indira Gandhi ...prostrated before Sri Chandrashekhara Saraswati, > > the Kanchi Math Paramacharya, for 90 minutes..." > > http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/06/13/stories/05132524.htm From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 16 21:59:05 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 21:59:05 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067542.23782.943368226705476079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Hodge wrote: >Can this also be connected with the Kondh Meriah sacrifices in Orissa >which once involved human sacrifice until the 1850s when the British >(interfering as usual) outlawed the practice and encouraged the >substitution of the buffalo which is still used. Human sacrifice was fairly widespread in both space and time. "Human beings were sacrificed on the stone by cutting through theit necks and separating the head from the body. The bodies were kept together at one place, but the three heads were picked up and arranged in the form of a hearth. Food was cooked on this hearth." (S. Silva 1955. Traces of human sacrifices in Kanara. Anthropos 50:577-92) >?From Parpola, Savitri and Resurrection, 1998, p. 249 "One of the most famous Indus seals (fig. 2) depicts a horned deity standing inside a fig tree, and a human looking who wears a similar horned head-dress and kneels in front of the tree with hands raised in respectful salutation or prayer. The worshipper, probably the chief priest of the deity who possessed this seal, is flanked by a human faced markhor goat, and beneath the tree, a low altar or table on which is placed a human head, identifiable as that of a warrior from its 'double-bun' hairstyle which recurs everywhere in fighting scenes and is of Mesopotomian origin. ... The decapitated victim is likely to have been the groom in a 'sacred marriage' performed at the new year festiavl, ..." In the Buddhist DhonasAkha JAtaka, a king is advised by priests to sarifice 1000 captured princes. In the Dummedha-JAtaka, people worship a vaTa-yakSiNI by sacrificing different kinds of animals and by ornamenting the tree wth the entrails and blood of the victims and offering the raw flesh. They wish the yakshi will grant them children, and wealth. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Sat Feb 17 04:36:00 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 23:36:00 -0500 Subject: Kanchi visit Message-ID: <161227067561.23782.7340525436269687209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > --- Dr. Samar Abbas wrote: > > Indira was willing to prostrate herself for one and a half hours in front > > of Pandit Saraswati, which is probably enough to prove that she was"Hindu": Yes she was a hindu nobody is arguing that. Prostrating 3 hours or 20 days or if she kicked holy men around has nothing to do with it. Mr. abbas's posts are clumsy and devoid of logic. One wonders if he is realy an ISI agent who has been given a directive of learning hindoo culture. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Feb 16 23:51:41 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 01 23:51:41 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067543.23782.5177192457595043630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: > Human sacrifice was fairly widespread in both space and time. Indeed -- many examples are known from Europe. Do you know if, in India, the common fiction of the "willing victim" was current ? I also note that your examples all seem involve decapitation or at least the shedding and daubing of blood in some way. AFAIK, strangulation seems to have perhaps been more popular among Neolithic Europeans -- as witnessed by the well-preserved bodies, thought to have been sacrificial, retrived from various bogs. Though one supposes that blood sacrifices may have also been wide-spread but the bog-people are the only victims whose bodies happen to have survived. The Celts practised head-hunting and had a cult of skulls but for really gory sacrifices some of the Nordic people were outstanding as Roman (and later) accounts relate. The so-called "spread-eagle" sacrifice was particularly imaginative -- the victim's chest was cut open (while alive), the rib-cage expanded and the lungs pulled out and draped over the shoulders like wings ! After that, plain old decapitation seems rather boring :) One also wonders whether the practice of hanging, drawing and quartering is a vestige of some form of sacrifice. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 17 00:28:36 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 00:28:36 +0000 Subject: clarification Message-ID: <161227067546.23782.4660616482883643643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My earlier comment about cutting Indira Gandhi some slack seems to have sparked a lot of surprise in many people. I hold no brief for the lady, and I do think she made a big mess out of Punjab. However, the more she is blamed for visiting one or the other guru, or for behaving like a Hindu, the more right-wingers on both Hindu and Muslim sides gain in power. The result will only be a collision course that ends in a Balkanization of India. This may not be realized by those who desire not to be simplistic, but some things are really very simple. Then again, some who call themselves secular would perhaps be perfectly happy if India splits into numerous xyz-stans, with the inevitable population transfers and insane carnage. alam ativistareNa, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 17 00:59:25 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 00:59:25 +0000 Subject: source of quote? Message-ID: <161227067547.23782.5400413094213838918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Please can someone identify the source of > > satyam. brahmaa / jaganmithya / jivo brahmaiva na para > >Many thanks. The pada "brahma satya.m jagan mithyaa" is the first one in verse 20 of vivekacuu.daama.ni, attributed to Zankara. The vedaanta.di.n.dima (author?) has the verse - brahma satya.m jagan mithyaa jiivo brahmaiva naapara.h | jiivanmuktastu tadvidvaan iti vedaanta.di.n.dima.h || Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Feb 17 02:34:16 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 02:34:16 +0000 Subject: Criminals at large Message-ID: <161227067551.23782.17216258769709854793.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to my opinion, Indology is not the place to wash dirty linens of Indian politics, especially self-serving politics practiced by late Indira Gandhi. To the best of my knowledge, even after 17 years, the main criminals (like Jagadish Tytler, Sajjan and others) who encouraged and participated in the destruction of lives and property of our Sikh brothers are not put behind the bars-neither by the past Congress governments nor by the present BJP government. Are these criminals hiding behind Indra? Then somebody has say "Indraya TakshakAya SvAhA".Since no body is saying, I believe India has remained enslaved indirectly even after 1947.N.R.Joshi. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 17 03:15:30 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 03:15:30 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067554.23782.9081683309956286009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Do you know if, in > India, the common fiction of the "willing victim" was current ? Don't know. But I learnt of a curious practice: The children who were acting as gods at Ramlila were considered too "holy" and godly, and after the festival, they were poisoned. Now the practice is stopped by law. >I also note that your examples all seem involve decapitation or at >least the shedding and daubing of blood in some way. Yes, the old Indian practice is to cut the head off of sacrifial animals, and then smear the blood and fatty oil/lard etc., on the icons. When Brahmana texts talk of "severe" headache, it refers to immolation, and "sweat" means blood. Later, blood and animal fat is changed to vermilion and sesame oil respectively. It appears pUjALi/pUjAri = izicin2an2 = "smearer" of sacrifical blood/oil. >?From Indological publications, I learn that Vedic Brahmins replaced this cutting/chopping the head of animals with strangulation. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lnadybal at BELLATLANTIC.NET Sat Feb 17 04:13:51 2001 From: lnadybal at BELLATLANTIC.NET (L. A. Nadybal) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 04:13:51 +0000 Subject: Lhasa to Nalanda - journey time by foot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067556.23782.6494931195080208063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Stern, These extracts from books I have might help: 1. "The total travelling distance between Punakha (Bhutan)and Ramgamatty [across one pass and southward down a valley] on the northern bank of the Brahmaputra is 188 miles, which we effected in fifteen days". 2. "The distance travelled from Dewangiri [Bhutan, on Indo/Bhutan border, now called Samdrup Jongkhar] to Punakha [by a valley route north to Tashigang then west across mountain passes] was rather more than 250 miles, and the number of marches made was 26 - giving an average of about nine miles, five furlongs each march." >?From Report on Bhutan, by R. B. Pemberton, 1838. 3. Manning leaves Lhasa April 9, 1812 towards Cooch Bihar: Arr Phari Dzong 1 May Arr Tazigong 31 May via Rapasay, Bida-Balk, Matakah, Dumgong Arr Kantalbari 3 Jun Arr Cooch Bihar 10 Jun (two day stay at Kantalbari) >?From Narratives of Mission of George Bogle to Tibet and Thomas Manning to Lhasa, Clements Markham, 1875. 4. November 7, 1881 Sarat Chandra Das leaves Darjeeling for Tashilumpo, Tibet December 9, 1881 arrives >?From Journey to Lhasa and Central Tibet, S. C. Das, 1902 I hope these together give you the rough idea of the walks along the roughly parallel route that you described in the historical period concerned. I don't think much changed between walking in the 7th century and walking in the 19th. Regards Len Nadybal Washington DC At 10:55 PM 02/15/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I'm hoping that somebody on the list can answer this question. About how >long would it take to walk from Lhasa or its environs to Nalanda in Bihar? >References to 20th century journeys by foot in either direction between some >specified location in India to or from the Lhasa area would help , such as >books about Tibetan refugees' experiences. > >The aim is to form an idea of how long it might have taken the Buddhist monk >zaantarakSita to travel to Tibet, and return in the 7th century. > > >Elliot M. Stern >552 South 48th Street >Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 >United States of America >Telephone: 215-747-6204 >email: emstern at bellatlantic.net > From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL Sat Feb 17 04:07:47 2001 From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 05:07:47 +0100 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067558.23782.3074554696222353616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:59 01-02-16 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >In the Buddhist DhonasAkha JAtaka, a king is advised by priests >to sarifice 1000 captured princes. Is it not VenasAkha-jAtaka? Regards, A. Karp From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 17 18:38:32 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 10:38:32 -0800 Subject: Re. A difficult Pali word Message-ID: <161227067566.23782.6304857063398102058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote: <<...I cannot understand what tumbamatta might mean, unless tumba is taken as a unit of measure, and the expression is intended to mean something like "covered with creatures to the extent of a litre-bucket full" or something like that...>> I look at ?tum-? as tumescence and would render the phrase simply ?covered with growth? [growth = ?creatures? in the sense that Italians refer to fungi as ?animals?]. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 17 13:57:41 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 13:57:41 +0000 Subject: Khambesavri puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067564.23782.15500558668115423029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me describe a buffalo sacrifice to a Southern goddess: "1. a disaster occurs (either epidemic disease, draught or death of cattle etc.) [...] 7. a final 'heated' sacrifice is offered: a most precious animal, the buffalo. The head is severed and its front paw is cut off and placed i7:52 AM 2/17/01n the animal's mouth; this indicates total submission. [I learn that this practice is in the Vedic also -NG]. A lamp is placed on the buffalo's head, the fat from the abdmomen serving as oil for the flame which should appease the goddess and induce her to leave the village. [animal fat, blood get replaced with oil, kunkuma for daubing later. -NG] [...] For such goddesses a temporary image is made by the potter. Often its worship is held in the night while the villagers hide inside the house. Women are afraid of the envious eye of the goddess that may fall on them, and never participate in these rites. The procession of the goddess takes a gruesome aspect: to prevent Her looking at the village and its houses with a discontented, enviuous eye she is propitiated once more at midnight after the sacrificial buffalo was killed. An Outcaste man is brought to the scene of the sacrifice. He smears his body with blood from the beheaded buffalo, winds the intestines around his neck, and takes the liver in his mouth. A pot containing food soaked in blood is placed in his hands, and accompanied by men armed with sticks and old swords, he starts to go to the boundaries of the village. As this weird procession moves along they shout Bali! Bali! 'The sacrifice, the sacrifice!', and flourish their swords and sticks, to keep off evil spirits. The man carrying the bloody offering is held up by ropes, and even then often falls to the ground, saying that he sees the spirits. When he thus falls, limes are cut in two and thrown into the air, and lambs are sacrificed on the spot. The man recovers from his pretended swoon, and the procession goes forward. Sometimes the procession continues around the village while bloody rice is scattered to keep out the sakthis. The worship of the pEys ('devils, demons, ghosts') is considered even more dangerous. ..." Kersenboom, Nityasumangali, p. 52 paraphrasing Western accts (19th cent.). The bali offerings with meat, liquor and blood are well represented in Sangam literature. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 18 03:16:21 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 19:16:21 -0800 Subject: Re. A difficult Pali word Message-ID: <161227067576.23782.2761099741252675963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ?Heva, naked Eve, she had no navel. Gaze. A belly without a blemish. Bulging big, a buckler of taut vellum?? (Joyce, Ulysses). By ?tumescence? I would hope to imply ?swelling? e.g., ?tumor.? Further, ?tum-? (or ?tuma?) is likely an apostrophe form of Pali atuma=atta: Sanskrit aataman. *Tumburu* is an interesting term/name with perhaps some relevance. Its origin is obscure, its conjectured meaning highly enigmatic. The name appears in Central Asian Tocharian literature (Dimbure) and in Old Turkic (Dimburi) as recorded in their respective versions of the Sanskrit Maitreyasamtri-naataka where Tumburu is mentioned as a Gandharva together with Pa~ncazikha and Citrasena. These three Gandharvas are followers of Dhrtaraastra, a lokapaala, i.e., one of the ?Four World-Guardians,? specifically of the East. Tumburu is also the name of a yaksha and the brother of the Four Kumaarii, the four ?girl? deities or Mahaayaksinyah also referred to as Bhaginiis. The four Kumaarii are portrayed as standing on ships and living in the ocean. Their names appear repeatedly as Jaya, Vijaya, Ajita, Aparaajita. They have a brother called Kumara (though apparently not Kaartikeya). His ?real? name seems to have been *Tumburu*. Note also ?The Four Faces of Tumburu,? P.C. Bagchi, ?On Some Tantrik Texts Studied in Ancient Kambuja,? 2 parts (1929): 754-69 and (1930): 97-107. Online texts at http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/SCAN/51439.htm and http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/bag.htm. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 18 01:05:31 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 20:05:31 -0500 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067574.23782.11245980778949439354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lance Cousins: My replies are below. >I have made no comments about either you or Richard Gombrich. I am >simply addressing the method. I entirely agree with you about caution when it comes to quoting much later sources. However, in another posting, I also quoted two sources from the Pali Canon (Vasettha Sutta and Dhammapada) which seem to imply that early Buddhism did not accept the idea of caste as something one can be born into. Please take a little more time in reading all of my postings before responding. Since one of the distinctive features of the caste system seems to be the idea of being born into a certain jati or varna, to reject the idea of caste by birth seems to be a rejection of the caste system. The implication (in an earlier posting) that early Theravada Buddhism did not reject caste was what I originally reacted to. >To defend the traditions, you have to argue that they are based on >texts written down in the Sinhalese dialect of Prakrit in the first >century B.C. on the basis of earlier traditions brought from what we >now call India or Pakistan in the third or second century B.C. I don't know if defending or not defending the tradition is the issue: the issue is what did the tradition really say. Even if we throw out the commentary discussed by Gombrich because of its late date, it seems fairly clear that at least some of the suttas in the Pali Canon rejected caste as something one is born into. On a slightly different note, there are also suttas such as the Tevijja Sutta in the Digha Nikaya which poke fun at some of the brahmin religious teachers. Here, however, it is doubtful that this means that the Buddha was anti-brahmin; rather, it seems that, in this sutta, what he is rejecting is learnedness which has no basis in experiential knowledge. Best Wishes, Lynken Ghose _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 18 04:55:38 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 20:55:38 -0800 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067578.23782.8806454438079940997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lynken Ghose wrote: <> One is awestruck at the insistence of so many scholars to continue to speak on the subject of Buddhism as if one Sakyamuni actually existed. This is particularly troubling in light of the mere ?tissue of fable? and implausible history upon which ? perhaps better put ??Buddha-ism? so infirmly rests. Therefore, the question truly asks itself: Where is there any experiential knowledge upon which one bases ones presumption of the existence of a personal founder of the Buddha cult? In addition to the ?the Buddha,? there are other worryingly unqualified usages such as ?the caste system? and ?the tradition.? We could ask ourselves, are we in a scientific community or church here? rgrds, VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 17 22:08:25 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 01 22:08:25 +0000 Subject: A difficult Pali word Message-ID: <161227067569.23782.12431373606930896303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. J. Silk wrote: >I cannot understand what tumbamatta might mean, unless tumba is taken as a >unit of measure, and the expression is intended to mean something like >"covered with creatures to the extent of a litre-bucket full" or something >like that. Please consider the foll. Tamil words used in old literature. tumbu/tUmbu/tomba etc., have the meanings of tube, measure etc. like nALI/nADI. tumba = "measure" appears to be Dravidian. tumpA/tUmpA/tUmpai 1. hollowed gourd or rind of a gourd, used as a vessel; 2. a kind of drinking vessel tUmpu 1. tubularity; 2. tube; 3. sluice, outlet; 4. vent in a sluice; 5. channel for irrigation; 6. bamboo; 7. bamboo tube; 8. a flute made of bamboo; 9. a measure of capacity for grain; 10. leathern bucket for baling water; 11. gateway, doorway,; 12. path, way; 13. narrow or difficult path, defile, pass; 14. lead tUmpu a measure (TLS) tompai 1. grain bin, high wicker-basket used as a receptacle for grain; 2. a paraphernal article carried before an idol tompaimAlai a kind of cylindrical cloth stuck in hardened clay, as rice-plant tompaRai 1. granary, barn; 2. pot-bellied person, as resembling a grain basket tomparai granary (TLS) tomparam cooking pot (TLS) tompam pole-dancing tompan2 a person belonging to the tribe of tumblers, acrobats and pole-dancers tompakkUttATi -> tompan2 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 18 00:52:18 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 00:52:18 +0000 Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India Message-ID: <161227067572.23782.2169312913083001312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his theory of Caste origins in Tamil culture using sangam literature, George Hart has a paper, "Early evidence for Caste in South India", Dimesions of Social Life: Essays in honor of David B. Mandelbaum, 1987. Hart writes, "Brahmins are found in the poems presiding at the war sacrifice, in which the blood and intestines of dead enemies were symbolically cooked up (PuRam 26), and at a rite in which a king who died in bed was cut with a sword to make it appear that he had been killed in battle so that he could go to the Tamil Valhalla (puRam 93)." Cooking the blood and intestines of enemy king killed in battle using a hearth made of chopped heads is found in Sangam texts, Hart-Heifetz translation (puRam 93): "... and you quickened the battle so that kings fell, and you captured their royal drums and spread your fame! and then, with food you had created, you sacrificed on the killing field, using an oven of crowned heads after pouring out a torrent of blood into the cooking pot and stirring it with the ladle of an arm still braceleted! Ce_liya_n, murderous in battle! As Brahmins of the Four Vedas, calm through the breadth of their knowledge, devoted to restraint, surrounded you and kings carried out your orders, you completed the sacrifice established by tradition! ..." In medieval times, it is found in Karnataka, and well explained in kalingattup paraNi in Tamil: "Human beings were sacrificed on the stone by cutting through their necks and separating the head from the body. The bodies were kept together at one place, but the three heads were picked up and arranged in the form of a hearth. Food was cooked on this hearth." (S. Silva 1955. Traces of human sacrifices in Kanara. Anthropos 50:577-92) In another poem, brahmin experts of the four vedas cut and split the dead body so that the dead men can reach heaven. It was an ancient Tamil custom, even if a very young male child dies, his body was cut in two, and then buried or cremated (puRam 74). In fact, the tamil name, "veTTiyAn2" (=cutter/splitter) refering to ex-outcaste persons performing cremation rites refers to this ancient custom. Online Tamil Lexicon entry: veTTiyAn2 1. a village menial servant; 2. one who cremates corpses; 3. an insect that cuts off the leaves of crops >???From S. Palaniappan, Bards, Priests, Washerwomen, and the Ancient Tamil Society in INDOLOGY [Quote] In fact, a very powerful evidence can be presented regarding the status of funerary priests. Consider an excerpt from puR.93 and its translation by Hart and Heifetz given below. pITu il man2n2ar nOy pAl viLinta yAkkai tazIi kAtal maRantu avar tItu maruGku aRumAr aRam puri koLkai nAn2maRai mutalvar tiRam puri pacu pul parappin2ar kiTappi maRam kantu Aka nal amar vIznta nIL kazal maRavar celvuzi celka en2a vAL pOzntu aTakkal um uyntan2ar mAtO (puR.93.4-11) Kings without majesty, they evaded what would have been done had their deaths come naturally, of sickness, and their bodies taken to be laid out on ever green grass of the finest kind by Brahmins schooled in the Four Vedas and the principles of Righteousness, who would have then chanted, "Go to where the great warriors go! those who wear their splendid war anklets, those who have died in a good battle and kept faith in their manhood!" and forgetting any love they may have had for them, they would have then wounded the bodies with the sword so as to free them of sin and buried them. This song by auvaiyAr is interesting for the following reasons. Brahmins act as funerary priests in a burial. Moreover, the brahmins cut the body with the sword before burial. (According to Prof. Michael Witzel, this was not a Vedic custom.) Although Hart and Heifetz translate the word "pOzntu" as "would have wounded", the real meaning is ?would have split/cloven open?. This clearly disproves Hart?s theory of anaGku/pulai being the cause of low caste status. [END QUOTE] In Varanasi, the cremation priests are called mahAbrAhmaNas, and are considered highly inauspicious because of their dealings with death. This is a phenomenon found in all of India about the persons performing cremation or burial rites. Birth=Auspicious/Impure, Wedding = Auspicious/Pure and Death=Inauspicious/Impure(polluting). The polarities of Caste society (Louis Dumont calles Indians Homo Hierarchicus) Pure vs. Polluted is KannaDa maDi/pole, Tamil maTi/pulai, Telugu madugu/pola, acc. to Indianists. The question to Indologists is whether in the North, the brAhmaNas, experts in the Four vedas, ("nAn2maRai mutalvar" acc. to sangam lit.) participated in sacrifices involving human blood and intestines in ancient times? Also, did they cut the bodies of men in half before disposal? In Vedic, Epics?? Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sun Feb 18 06:54:33 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 06:54:33 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: <20010218045538.28685.qmail@web1006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067583.23782.1578649213176914153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra writes: >One is awestruck at the insistence of so many scholars >to continue to speak on the subject of Buddhism as if >one Sakyamuni actually existed. This is particularly >troubling in light of the mere ?tissue of fable? and >implausible history upon which ? perhaps better put >??Buddha-ism? so infirmly rests. Well, I think you are right that most - indeed, practically all - scholars would affirm the historical existence of the Buddha. There are problems in regard to his biography, it is true. We don't know how much of the discourses and Vinaya material which tell us about his life-story is old. Some of it probably is, but it is difficult to be sure what. We know that the Emperor Asoka was shown places associated with the Buddha's life-story around 150 years after his death. Since this is the earliest occurrence of writing in India, we cannot get earlier data from written sources. That said, however, the biographical material is probably later than the teachings. So for me the kind of passages we get in e.g. some of the Majjhimanikaaya discourses presenting those teachings show every sign of being the product of a single originating mind. Tying this down in detail is necessarily difficult because we have no independent corroboration. but I wouldn't doubt it myself. The tradition itself was concerned to preserve those essential teachings, not personal details of the life-story of its founder. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Feb 18 07:55:35 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 07:55:35 +0000 Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067580.23782.17089686664225772052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you *sure* this was meant literally? It sounds to me like a pretty good metaphor for warfare. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK N. Ganesan writes > >Cooking the blood and intestines of enemy king killed in battle >using a hearth made of chopped heads is found in Sangam texts, >Hart-Heifetz translation (puRam 93): >"... and you quickened the battle > so that kings fell, and you captured >their royal drums and spread your fame! >and then, with food you had created, you > sacrificed on the killing field, >using an oven of crowned heads after pouring > out a torrent of blood >into the cooking pot and stirring it with the > ladle of an arm still braceleted! >Ce_liya_n, murderous in battle! As Brahmins > of the Four Vedas, >calm through the breadth of their knowledge, >devoted to restraint, surrounded you >and kings carried out your orders, >you completed the sacrifice established >by tradition! ..." [Of another poem] >This song by auvaiyAr is interesting for the following >reasons. Brahmins act as funerary priests in a burial. Moreover, >the brahmins cut the body with the sword before burial. Also that the poet does not approve of the practice--VJR From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sun Feb 18 13:19:52 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 13:19:52 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067590.23782.15368508542875133681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lynken Ghose, You write: >Since one of the distinctive features of the caste system seems to be the >idea of being born into a certain jati or varna, to reject the idea of caste >by birth seems to be a rejection of the caste system. The implication (in an >earlier posting) that early Theravada Buddhism did not reject caste was what >I originally reacted to. Well, I didn't actually intend to address the issue of Buddhism and caste. I think it is more difficult than people often assume. I suppose that, if I have a view, it would be that the position of the Buddha or of early Buddhism in regard to 'caste' was probably critical rather than hostile. I suspect that it was taken for granted as a necessary evil and not actively campaigned against. But that said, I also suspect that the early Buddhist sangha may not have been uniform in its views on the matter. Certainly, Buddhist texts are opposed to the idea of the divine origin of the four var.nas. What is also clear is that there were brahmins who were Buddhists throughout the known history of Buddhism in India. And subsequently in Ceylon and South-East Asia. Indeed, there still are. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 18 13:45:07 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 13:45:07 +0000 Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India Message-ID: <161227067585.23782.9657731359872100957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Roebuck, In the first puRam poem that I quote, the 'cooking of blood' can be metaphorical, and as I quoted, Hart uses the word *symbolically*. But in the original Tamil poem, one can never be sure that it's metaphorical. Let me tell one aspect of sangam texts: they are extremely brief, (in fact, technique of suggestion called uLLuRai and uTanuRai/iRaicci in ancient Tol. grammar is full in sangam texts.dhvani idea to Skt. via gAthA saptasatI is likely). The whole corpus is small in volume. In sangam poems, most are akam (interior, love) poems where no names are mentioned. It looks as though love marriage is common and majority way in sangam poetry. But arranged marriages are extremely old: cousin marriages, a main cause for Dravidian kinship, and spread all across the South including Maharashtra, parts of Gujarat. The poetic convention of love marriages arose because it's rare and arranged marriages are boring as far as poetry making is concerned. Take another example: the bards and dancers often describe their poverty, but still many instances where kings donate hordes of elephants and chariots to the bards. Here the poetic convention when was a highly polished so that kings keep on donating elephants and chariots which are symbols of royalty. Yet, archaeologically, no sangam-times buildings or art as monumental as those found in the North is not available from the South. It's not clear whether the kings were in a real position in sangam times for these kinds of donations. The second puRam poem in original tamil is clear: brahmins, experts of 4 vedas, cut asunder the dead men. I do not think this cutting was done for a common man by Brahmins. The poem mentions kings. However, the common populace would have had its regular cremation rites specialists. Dr. Hodge asked whether the decapitation involves "willing victim". I do not know about human sacrifcies, but in animal sacrifices, the answer is yes. Turmeric water (symbol of auspiciousness) is sprinkled on horses, goats, buffaloes, ... There is an eerie silence among the devotees and the butchering priest (little possessed by now) waits until the sacrificial animal's nod (which I think is due to pouring of cold water) for his action. On rare occasions, the animal never shakes its head, then it is not killed (goddess is angry). Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 18 15:29:09 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 15:29:09 +0000 Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India Message-ID: <161227067588.23782.1027929042253737312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The second puRam poem in original tamil is clear: brahmins, >experts of 4 vedas, cut asunder the dead men. I do not think >this cutting was done for a common man by Brahmins. The poem >mentions kings. However, the common populace would have had >its regular cremation rites specialists. This shows how the indigenous customs spread into Indo-Aryan culture: before a group was assimilated, Brahmins would come into it and adopt those values most admired by that group in order to gain respect. Thus the custom would have gained a foothold in the Brahminic religion and would be perpetuated when descendants of the Brahmins wrote lawbooks or copied texts with the appropriate insertions. (Hart, The poems of ancient Tamil, OUP, 1999, paperback edition). A similar view on brahminical adaptation was expressed by Professors M. Witzel and M. Deshpande in this list, http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9605&L=indology&P=R576 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 18 23:02:13 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 18:02:13 -0500 Subject: Book wanted Message-ID: <161227067596.23782.9521291436946787069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I am looking for Whitney's translation of the Taittiriya Pratisakhya which is now out-of-print. Some bookdealers have it listed but when I check it is out of stock (There is a new reprint listed on the internet but it is for $150.00 !). If any of the list members have a copy they would like to sell then please let me know. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 19 02:07:35 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 18:07:35 -0800 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067600.23782.15568641164765820400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins wrote: <> Are we are saying that Asoka, the biggest cheese of his day, ordered it be published that he had visited sites associated with a legendary figure of uncertain name? <> Perhaps the mind of the author of those discourses? best rgrds, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 18 20:55:24 2001 From: milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM (milton degeorge) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 20:55:24 +0000 Subject: Website Message-ID: <161227067594.23782.12395745569312370930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all, Here's a simple question: What's the website for this list? Milton DeGeorge Jr. Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL Sun Feb 18 20:26:26 2001 From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 01 21:26:26 +0100 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with Buffalo sacrifice In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010217043853.024aca90@mercury.ci.uw.edu.pl> Message-ID: <161227067592.23782.3297061239576318531.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 21:59 01-02-16 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: In the Buddhist DhonasAkha JAtaka, a king is advised by priests to sarifice 1000 captured princes. Is it not VenasAkha-jAtaka? Regards, A. Karp On closer look, no mistake about the Jataka nr 353: it is known as DhonasAkha (Pali Proper Names Dictionary, Vol. I, p. 1162-1163 ) and as VenasAkha (Chattha-Sangayana CD-Rom). Regards, A.K. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 19 00:44:47 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 00:44:47 +0000 Subject: Meaning of Muria Message-ID: <161227067598.23782.6951777041501882258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kond people are Dravidian speakers, Ultimately their name, koND is related with goND, another central Dravidian speakers in Central India. Like kOn2Ar in tamil, these all could refer to herders. Muria also have a Drav. mother tongue, and they are a sub-group within Gonds. They wear a head gear made up of bison horns and conch shells. Conch bangles and cowrie shells were important in IVC, and conch shell cutters are major priests in old Tamil literature whose original title pArppAr in later periods goes to Vedic experts. What does Muria signify? In Tamil, the cognate is mUriyar(=strong people). The online Tamil lexicon: mUri 1. strength; 2. greatness; 3. antiquity; 4. old age; 5. buffalo; 6. ox, bullock; 7. taurus of the zodiac; 8. hump; For example, the bow broken by Rama to win Sita's hand is called "mUri vil"(=strong bow) in old literature. Murias exhibiting buffalo cults would have named themselves as "strong people". In Tamil and Skt. literature, we read that Mahisha (asura) is very strong. The mUr-khambam(merkhamb) post where the buffaloes are tied for sacrifice refers to mahisha myth. In the goddess (ultimately proto-durga) temples, the post where buffalo is sacrificed if forked, indicative of the horned mahiSa, and after the sacrifice, the victim's blood is smeared on the "post" to reinforce the mahiSa identity. Compare the parallel name "basava" (1) bull 2) man of basavi-devadasi group) in Kannada. In tamil, vacavan2 is cognate of kan. basava. and vacavan2 = poli-kALai, steer bull used for "covering" to impregnate. This vacavan2/vayavan2 is formed from vayam = strength (Cf. kuyavan2/kucavan2 'potter'). Compare Tamil Lexicon (OTL) entries: vayam 01 1. power, might; 2. victory, conquest viRal 01 1. victory; 2. bravery; 3. strength; 4. greatness; 5. distinctive excellence; 6. physical expression of emotion In Kannada, devadasis are basavis, and tamil sangam texts call dancing women as viRalis. Both have the same meaning, "strong women" which has to do with their auspicious ritual power to convert inauspicious/uncontrolled things into auspicious/controlled. Karnataka custom of marrying basavi devadasis to bulls (Nandin) in temples may have ancient antecedents. I've seen Wendy Doniger relating Rishyashringa myth with Enkidu bull-man tamed by a prostitute, and Parpola connecting the unicorn of IVC seals (motif borrowed from Mesopotamia) with Rishyasringa myth. I think the basavi devadasi marrying basava bulls may ultimately be related. Like Karnataka, Tamilnadu has the custom of marrying devadasis to stones (called nATTukkal), and let's see how people adapt when high govt. authorities and Chr. missionaries want to ban the ancient tradition: <<< "But by far the the most sorrow laden hour was spent in the village from which the little child was taken to the temple near our home ... they chained her fair young body to the cold and cruel stone ... married her to the god" (Carmichael 1907). In the 1920s, interim legislation was passed forbidding the dedication of minors. This meant that if a girl were to be dedicated before puberty some other type of ceremony had to be devised. The need for dedication before puberty was a very real concern for the isai vellala [farmers of music -NG] community who introduced a practice known euphemistically as the "Rose Garland Ceremony"(rOjA-pU-mAlai). This consisted of a rose garland, with the symbol of the marriage, the pottu, hidden in it, being placed around the neck of the young girl to be dedicated. Dedication continued, usually in secret from the authorities, but with the knowledge of the temple authorities and the local townsfolk and villagers (Amrit Srinivasan 1984). >> (p. 30, A-M. Gaston, Bharata Natyam: From temple to theater,1997). Muuriya/Muria also means buffalo, bull, strong man, just as basava/vacavan2 in South Dravidian. Ultimately, mUriyar, buffalos, and basavis are sacrifices in one sense. Regards, N. Ganesan In a thread, Proto-Siva started by me in 1996, I've been educated by scholars including M. Rabe and M. Witzel. There, on 3 Dec 1996 AmitaSarin at aol.com wrote: <<< Has anyone ever noted the similarity between the Proto-Siva on the Indus seals and the Bison-horn Maria? The headdress of the seated figure is exactly like those worn by the Maria Gonds in Central India. It is composed of bison horns with a long tuft of peacock feathers between them. Although these tribes now live in the jungles of Central India, their ancestors probably lived all over the sub-continent, perhaps even in the Indus Valley in the third millenium B.C.>> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 19 15:38:37 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 07:38:37 -0800 Subject: Meaning of Muria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067602.23782.16040308783433414164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Monier-Williams data on "zUlA" as harlot, does it have anything to do with marrying basavis/devadasis with trident pillars? --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > In Kannada, devadasis are basavis, and tamil sangam > texts call dancing women as viRalis. Both have the > same meaning, "strong women" which has to do with their > auspicious ritual power to convert inauspicious/uncontrolled > things into auspicious/controlled. Karnataka custom of marrying > basavi devadasis to bulls (Nandin) in temples may have ancient > antecedents. I've seen Wendy Doniger relating Rishyashringa > myth with Enkidu bull-man tamed by a prostitute, > and Parpola connecting the unicorn of IVC seals (motif > borrowed from Mesopotamia) with Rishyasringa myth. I think > the basavi devadasi marrying basava bulls may ultimately be related. > Like Karnataka, Tamilnadu has the custom of marrying > devadasis to stones (called nATTukkal), and let's see > how people adapt when high govt. authorities and Chr. > missionaries want to ban the ancient tradition: > <<< > "But by far the the most sorrow laden hour was spent in > the village from which the little child was taken to > the temple near our home ... they chained her fair > young body to the cold and cruel stone ... married > her to the god" (Carmichael 1907). > In the 1920s, interim legislation was passed forbidding > the dedication of minors. This meant that if a girl > were to be dedicated before puberty some other type of > ceremony had to be devised. The need for dedication > before puberty was a very real concern for the isai > vellala [farmers of music -NG] community who introduced > a practice known euphemistically as the "Rose Garland > Ceremony"(rOjA-pU-mAlai). This consisted of a rose garland, > with the symbol of the marriage, the pottu, hidden in it, > being placed around the neck of the young girl to be > dedicated. Dedication continued, usually in secret > from the authorities, but with the knowledge of the temple > authorities and the local townsfolk and villagers > (Amrit Srinivasan 1984). > >> > (p. 30, A-M. Gaston, Bharata Natyam: From temple to theater,1997). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 19 17:47:18 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 09:47:18 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit in Kerala (c. 1000 BCE) Message-ID: <161227067607.23782.7023723629368893569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Narayan Joshi writes: >I , single person, cannot study every detail of every >part of India from 550 BCE to this day, Languages are changing even >today.However pre-history of India to me looks very different when I find >the Kerala king signing trade agreement with king Soloman(1000 BCE) in >Sanskrit. Persian king Daurius called his mother tongue Arya BhA.sA. In Sanskrit?? This assertion made here makes me wonder. 1) Was it Vedic or Classical Sanskrit of the Epics that the Chera king was using in his treaty with Solomon in 1000 BCE? What is the reference on which this claim is based? 2) Has there been a complete revisioning of datings for Keralan history? For example, the Nambudiri brahmins who spearheaded the Sanskritization of Kerala, and created Malayalam out of old Tamil did not arrive there until 5th century CE or so. What is the basis for this revolutionary revisioning of Chera kings writing treaty atleast a millennium or more before the dates that is standard among Kerala historians? Sincerely, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 19 17:10:36 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 17:10:36 +0000 Subject: sULe in Kannada Message-ID: <161227067605.23782.13936510938341521837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Several Kannada inscriptions name the temple dancers as "sULe". How do Kannada experts and lexicographers explain the meaning of sULe? With kind regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Feb 19 22:20:42 2001 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 17:20:42 -0500 Subject: Re. A difficult Pali word Message-ID: <161227067609.23782.12699757452671040974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. J. Silk wrote: >I cannot understand what tumbamatta might mean, unless tumba is taken as a >unit of measure, and the expression is intended to mean something like >"covered with creatures to the extent of a litre-bucket full" or something >like that. In hindi, bengali tumba is the hollow gourd used for making the resonant chamber of stringed musical instruments like the veena, sarod etc. So some sort of container is implied matta means intoxicated in bengali tumba matta could mean pitcher drunk RB From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Feb 20 00:04:00 2001 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 19:04:00 -0500 Subject: Muria, Maria and Meriah Message-ID: <161227067613.23782.3144358091193295384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in partial response to N. Ganesan's query/theory. Muria [acc. to Elwin] is from mur-, the original inhabitants of the land; according to local ethnosophists [and local Anthropologists of the University at Raipur], muria is from Mura [stony land]. Maria is short for Abujhmaria [from AbujhmAr-placename, and the 'r' here is the 'r' with a dot under it/the retroflex D. Meriah does not have to do anything with maria or muria, philologically that is. The word meriah is the anglicised form of meriha, 'one that goes to the mer'/'one who is sacrificed at the mer'. It is a Saora or Sora word. The Munda-Dravidian convergence/interaction is yet to be studied. Who borrowed what from whom- not easy to tell. Caution pays, though. Best wishes. Jogesh Panda __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 20 06:01:05 2001 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 01 22:01:05 -0800 Subject: sULe in Kannada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067616.23782.2068490484943891016.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm by no means a lexicographer, but sULe as I understand it means prostitute. A common insult in kannaDa is sULe-magane lit. son of a prostitute (colloquially used with the effect similar to 'son of a bitch'). If you go to Hampi, you can even see the sULe bAzAr! chandan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "Don't blame me...I voted for Kodos." On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, N. Ganesan wrote: > Dear List, > > Several Kannada inscriptions name the temple dancers as "sULe". > How do Kannada experts and lexicographers explain the meaning > of sULe? > > With kind regards, > N. Ganesan > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 20 00:04:26 2001 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 00:04:26 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067611.23782.9039251962279659055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:19:52 +0000, L.S.Cousins wrote: >Dear Lynken Ghose, > > >What is also clear is that there were brahmins who were Buddhists >throughout the known history of Buddhism in India. And subsequently >in Ceylon and South-East Asia. Indeed, there still are. > >Lance Cousins >-- As far as Sri Lanka (Ceylon) is concerned there is not a Single "true" Brahmin Sinhala Buddhist except caste members such as the Salagama (formerly Cinnamon Peelers) claiming to be Namboothiri Brahmins from Kerala. Historically too, Brahmins as a noticeable community amongst Sinhala Sri Lankans (as opposed Tamil Sri Lankans who are mostly Hindus and still have a sizeable number of Brahmins amongst them) as a caste seem to have withered away at least 1,500 years ago. Although there are few epigraphic and literary evidence of one or two Brahmin notables most probably recent arrivals from some parts of India serving the Kings as sooth Sayers and as advisors. The ?evil Brahmana? is a topic of interest to the ?conservative? Buddhist clergy in their daily discourses to the lay people. Somehow the anti Tamilism of the clergy has also intertwined with the anti-Hinduism and anti- Brahmanism. Hence a story about a ?evil Brahmana? is in effect a story about the ?bad Tamils? . Raveen From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 20 12:36:12 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 04:36:12 -0800 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067623.23782.4640622770683360631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And so, if we may have your permission to thoroughly break faith with the millennia-long tradition of fairytale weaving.? Please, boys and girls, we do not wish to cause misunderstanding here, nor give conniptions to the closeted believers among us. Nor would we dare to attempt to dismiss the feasibility that "The Buddha" - whomever that may or may have not been - actually ever existed. Yet, at this point we really do need to "keep it real" and sincerely ask ourselves what true historical evidence there is in support of an "existence" - not "_alleged_ existence." So once again: A commonly held working presumption is that 'hagiography has built a superstructure on the historical figure to such a degree that it is impossible discern the historical substratum of *a presumed original figure*.' One would therefore discount practically everything the "tradition" has told him concerning that figure, and yet, one can still not suppose that this "conjuring tradition" could possibly have invented, and reinvented, its original premise out of - as it were - "a whole cloth." And it is upon this flaw, this rent cloth, this torn tissue that "the tradition" has inevitably constructed its "past" from its own contemporaneous dreams and aspirations. Or put like this: Trying to establish whether a person - or persons - called The Buddha, Siddhartha, Shakyamuni, Gotama, Angirasa, Bhagavan, The Jina, and so forth and so on, in fact ever lived on planet Earth is one thing; but ascertaining the "significance" of such an existence or non-existence - *such existences or non-existences* - is altogether something else. In the case of Buddhism, its entire history is crucially pinned on the vague mythic notion of a paranormal "Buddhic enlightenment" that more or less functions as "heaven" does in the Christian mythic sense. Yet still, it is left to the folks here and now to determine what that summum bonum might possibly have meant, or not meant. This really ought to be the thematic domain of the Academic Field of Buddhism - and not the Church. So we question: Have the pros been doing their job? Or have they rather inadvertently proved the old saying that "present perception reinvents the past," as the boat creates the wake, and not vice versa? Every soteriological movement seems to be founded on a similar sort of multi-level pandering of some exalted state-of-being called heaven, paradise, nirvaa.na, mok.sa, enlightenment, and the rest. But religionists have always been extremely chary to question the basis of the glib little ploy itself, as they would rather impulsively spend their time polemically deriding the virtue, authority and goal of the competition. Now, academia has traded hugely in these same market shares, which is exactly why it bodes so menacingly ? at least from a historiographic point of view ? to expose the blaring inconsistencies of certain remotely prehistoric religious figures. For to deal with this seriously would necessitate a radical shift in methodological tack away from a discourse on the influences of various historical players - philosophers, religious leaders, their antagonists, etc. - to a history of the very pathogenesis of the fraud-impulse itself. I have recently observed this syndrome of denial in the scholarly discussion as pertains to the history of the Dhyana-yoga School of Buddhism, otherwise known as Ch'an or Zen. In _Zen Buddhism: A History (vol. 1 Indian & China_), Heinrich Dumoulin does a remarkable job in substantially burying the Bodhidharma myth. But Yaroslav Vassilkov proves far more radical and thoroughgoing in discrediting the historicity of the hallowed Zen-figure Hui Nung, together with the sutra attributed to him. Ostensibly, Vassilkov's work is a new translation of _The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch_ in light of the documents unearthed at the Silk Road oasis town of Duhuang. But the thesis put forward in his long Introduction greatly out shines his work of translation. Interestingly, if not confusingly, Dumoulin hardly makes mention of Vassilkov's work. Dumoulin, one suspects, has too much at risk, as the meat of his literary career depends directly on the perpetuation of the Zen enlightenment myth. This may also demonstrate how analyzing cult in terms of its own highly specialized and stylized argot acts strongly to condone, if not altogether honor the cult-itself, and obviously precludes any thoroughgoing analysis. Frankly speaking, Buddhism today is a highly cultic, sentimental mess where, in the name of "tradition," even top-notch scholars persist in notorious rationalization and kid themselves into crediting purely human aspirations to a factitious paranormal being. Of first importance is to clean this mess up, because if we don't, the enchanted myth gets conferred on one more generation. Ven. Tantra Artistic reference: R. Christgau, "Missing the Point of the Many Masks," http://www.latimes.com/news/asection/20010218/t000014524.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Tue Feb 20 05:55:49 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 05:55:49 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067621.23782.14967159130413350295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen, Responding to my remark: >And subsequently >in Ceylon and South-East Asia. you comment: >As far as Sri Lanka (Ceylon) is concerned there is not a Single "true" >Brahmin Sinhala Buddhist except caste members such as the Salagama >(formerly Cinnamon Peelers) claiming to be Namboothiri Brahmins from >Kerala. Quite true. It is in South-East Asia where they remain. >Historically too, Brahmins as a noticeable community amongst Sinhala Sri >Lankans (as opposed Tamil Sri Lankans who are mostly Hindus and still have >a sizeable number of Brahmins amongst them) as a caste seem to have >withered away at least 1,500 years ago. Although there are few epigraphic >and literary evidence of one or two Brahmin notables most probably recent >arrivals from some parts of India serving the Kings as sooth Sayers and as >advisors. I doubt this. It seems much more likely that brahmins played some role in the capital cities and courts, at least down until the arrival of the Portuguese. Exactly as they do subsequently in South-East Asia. I agree that there is no evidence that their numbers were ever very large. >The ?evil Brahmana? is a topic of interest to the ?conservative? Buddhist >clergy in their daily discourses to the lay people. Somehow the anti >Tamilism of the clergy has also intertwined with the anti-Hinduism and anti- > Brahmanism. Hence a story about a ?evil Brahmana? is in effect a story >about the ?bad Tamils? . There is some truth in this. But are you not doing the very same thing when you refer to 'conservative, Buddhist clergy' and their daily discourses to the lay people ? Have they started to have daily discourses to the lay people. by the way ? What about the radical Buddhsit clergy ? I would have thought that the problem is the human tendency to classify into 'them and us' and generate anger against the other. Just the sort of thing that the Buddha and many other Indian teachers opposed. -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 20 15:20:43 2001 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 07:20:43 -0800 Subject: E-texts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067630.23782.12862894267213915310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are any e-text versions of the Puranas available online? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 20 16:41:15 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 08:41:15 -0800 Subject: Tamil Virtual University Message-ID: <161227067632.23782.9565564916425918357.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> CM inagurates TVU, http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2001/02/18/stories/0418223s.htm << Mr. Murasoli Maran, Union Minister for Industry and Commerce, who presided wanted the TVU to concentrate on promoting modern, scientific Tamil. ``Please leave the ancient texts and hard grammar to scholars and concentrate on aspects such as short term courses for tourists and visitors.'' >> I guess the Industry minister, (himself CEO of big businesses as well) wants (old) Tamil to be nurtured by foreigners. Like Sanskrit, i guess. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 20 10:06:35 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 10:06:35 +0000 Subject: Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin : Closure (fwd) Message-ID: <161227067619.23782.9074240168189364818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:08:25 +0100 From: Dr Hartmut-Ortwin Feistel Subject: Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin : Closure The reading rooms in Building 2 = Potsdamer Strasse , including the Oriental reading room, will be closed (probably) from the beginning of June to end of October; this will most likely also severely hamper or make completely impossible the use of special materials (manuscripts, films) here in Berlin. Orders for microfilms or other photographic materials will however be processed as usual. [...] Best regards Hartmut ========================= Dr Hartmut-Ortwin Feistel Orientabteilung Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin - Preussischer Kulturbesitz - Potsdamer Strasse 33 D-10785 Berlin Telefon +49-30-266-2415 Telefax +49-30-264-5955 http://www.sbb.spk-berlin.de http://www.sbb.spk-berlin.de/kohd ========================= From kevenkat at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 20 18:20:12 2001 From: kevenkat at YAHOO.COM (Venkat Kesaraju) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 10:20:12 -0800 Subject: Criminals at large In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067637.23782.8227325914046632227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "Narayan R.Joshi" wrote: > According to my opinion, Indology is not the place > to wash dirty linens of > Indian politics, especially self-serving politics > practiced by late Indira > Gandhi. Right on Sir, then where is the need for this posting? Aren't we misusing the Indology forum.Let us stop discussions on politics and get along with usual (Indological) discussions. >Since no > body is saying, I > believe India has remained enslaved indirectly even > after 1947.N.R.Joshi. Again no comments, since this is not the right forum for a debate on this topic. Venkat ===== VENKAT KESARAJU 49 D Reading Road Edison, NJ - 08817 Phone: 732-603-2726(Home) 201-804-7231(Work), 732-768-4123 (Cell) E-mail:kevenkat at yahoo.com,kevenkat at hotmail.com vkesaraju at axc.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 20 14:02:21 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 14:02:21 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067625.23782.10318365405481929712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> LC>>And subsequently in Ceylon and South-East Asia. Dr. Raveen Satkurunathan: >As far as Sri Lanka (Ceylon) is concerned there is not a Single >"true" Brahmin Sinhala Buddhist except caste members such as the >Salagama (formerly Cinnamon Peelers) claiming to be Namboothiri >Brahmins from Kerala. Dr. Lance Cousens: >Quite true. It is in South-East Asia where they remain. The foll. point is not mentioned so far in the discussion, and may be relevant. The situation in Ceylon and SE Asia is quite different in medieval times. Then, SE Asia had thriving Shaivism and kings professing Shaivaite religion are many. In Ceylon, no such recordings. Since ancient times from the east coast of India, Shaivism played a major role in SE Asia, but not among the Buddhists of Ceylon. By looking at the Brahmins in SE Asia, we cannot project many brahmins present in medieval Sinhala society. Dr. Lance Cousens: >I doubt this. It seems much more likely that brahmins played some role in >the capital cities and courts, at least down until the arrival of the >Portuguese. Exactly as they do subsequently in South-East Asia. I agree >that there is no evidence that their numbers were ever very large. See above. Brahmins in SE Asia is due to Shaivism. In art, we have huge Shaivaite temples in Khmer, monumental Hindu bronzes in Thailand, Indonesia, the entire script of SE Asia shows South Indian influence. In Indonesia, the word for moon is tiGkaL (a Drav. word in tamil, kannada; A. C. Burnell, vamza-brAhmaNa). There was a large syncretism between Mahayana Buddhism and Saivism in SE Asia happening for centuries. Buddhists of Ceylon constructed myths of much antiquity in the first some centuries CE. This is projected back by the West and IE specialists onto Buddha legends, as Ven. Tantra indiactes. The dating of Buddhist texts have vested interests, and are quite doubtful from a scholarly perspective. Regards, N. Ganesan Reference: a) Tamil shaivaite hymns were long used in Thailand's royal coronation ceremonies; See: Chulalongkorn, King of Siam, 1853-1910. Main Title: Phrar?atchaphith?i tr?iyamphaw?ai-tr?ipaw?ai, (ch?ak Phrar?atchaphith?i 12 d?u?an) [microform] / phrar?atchaniphon nai Phrab?at Somdet Phra Chunlach?omkl?ao Ch?aoy?uhua. Published/Created: [Bangkok] : Phray?a Chonlam?akphich?an, 2477 [1934] Notes: In Thai. "Phray?a Chonlam?akphich?an `Athib?od?i Krom Chonlaprath?an phim m?u?a pen Phray?a Y?u?n chingch?a." Description of a royal ceremony in which two Tamil devotional works, Tirupp?avai by ?Ant?al and Tiruvemp?avai by M?anikkav?acakar are recited. b) For some other Tamil texts in Thailand: Neelakanta Sarma, Textes sanskrits et tamouls de Thailande. Introd. par Jean Filliozat, 1972, Pondichery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Feb 20 14:46:03 2001 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 15:46:03 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Q:_Mayrhofer's_W=C3=B6rterbuch?= In-Reply-To: <000301c09856$9b562f60$d554b59d@dial.elte.hu> Message-ID: <161227067627.23782.17066483699071489640.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ferenc Ruzsa asked: >it appears from a catalogue that a new edition of Mayrhofer's Etymological >Dictionary is being published. > >1. Is it significantly different from the previous one? >2. How much of it appeared yet? (According to the catalogue, vols. 1-2 and >fasc. 1-3 of vol 3 [1998], but it does not say which letters of the alphabet >have been covered.) The new dictionary (Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindischen, starting in 1985) gives references to the research done since the first one was completed. In addition to that, one of the major differences is that it falls into two parts: Vol. I and II (complete with Lieferung 20, 1996) include the vocabulary of the older (i.e. Vedic) language, Vol. III, starting with Lieferung 21 (1997), contains words belonging to the later language only. Vol. III is complete as far as the letters of the alphabet are concerned. On page 569 in Lieferung 28 (2000) starts the Register (arranged according to the different ie. languages), which is almost complete now (Lieferung 30 has been published in 2000). Best regards, G.v.Simson From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 20 20:50:14 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 15:50:14 -0500 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067642.23782.17543599307838658346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge said: <> Ronald Hutton, in The Pagan Religions of the British Isles, their Nature and Legacy, (Oxford, UK and Cambridge, MA: Basil Blackwell, 1991) maintains there was no such practice, and the belief that there was is a misunderstanding of the texts. His main point throughout the book is that we know almost nothing about the pre-Christian religions of the later UK and Ireland, and most of what we think we know we don't. Also that the inhabitants were quickly and thoroughly converted to Christianity and few medieval or modern customs that are thought to be continuations of pre-Christian customs are. Allen Thrasher From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 20 20:59:06 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 15:59:06 -0500 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with buffalo sacrifice : correction Message-ID: <161227067644.23782.5503976163039072434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When I said Hutton said there was no such practice, I would referring to the "spread-eagle" sacrifice, not to Celtic headhunting. Allen From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Feb 20 17:39:10 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 17:39:10 +0000 Subject: Tamil Virtual University Message-ID: <161227067634.23782.9639659443083880060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is available at: http://www.tamilvu.org/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 20 19:22:03 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 19:22:03 +0000 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067640.23782.3353483551537002355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ven. Tantra" wrote: >would we dare to attempt to dismiss the feasibility >that "The Buddha" - whomever that may or may have not >been - actually ever existed. Yet, at this point we >really do need to "keep it real" and sincerely ask >ourselves what true historical evidence there is in >support of an "existence" - not "_alleged_ existence." The same arguments could be extended to any supposedly historical figure from India, couldn't they? Paucity of concrete evidence is the rule rather than the exception. I would offer just one note of caution. Perhaps one needs to inject a more critical attitude towards what is usually assumed about "the Buddha", but this need not result in an outright skepticism or even denial of the notion that a personality called Siddhartha/Gotama lived ca. 5th century BCE. One can be very comfortable with the notion that he was only one among many "buddhas", as I presume you are. I see your comments more as a criticism of how much most academicians are willing to believe in this regard, for whatever reason. Do you think that the majority of them have forsaken scholarly skepticism in favor of an extreme degree of credulity? Is the suspension of disbelief a tad too willing? :^) Clarifications welcome. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Feb 21 00:24:47 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 19:24:47 -0500 Subject: Tamil Virtual University Message-ID: <161227067648.23782.5116771295586432859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> this image at http://www.tamilvu.org/coresite/images/cwtmthru.gif is that of thiruvalluvar. looks feminine below the neck !!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Swaminathan Madhuresan To: Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:41 AM Subject: Tamil Virtual University > CM inagurates TVU, > http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2001/02/18/stories/0418223s.htm > > << > Mr. Murasoli Maran, Union Minister for Industry and Commerce, who presided > wanted the TVU to concentrate on promoting > modern, scientific Tamil. ``Please leave the ancient texts and hard grammar to > scholars and concentrate on aspects such as short > term courses for tourists and visitors.'' > >> > > I guess the Industry minister, (himself CEO of big businesses as well) > wants (old) Tamil to be nurtured by foreigners. Like Sanskrit, i guess. From f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU Tue Feb 20 22:51:45 2001 From: f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 01 23:51:45 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Q:_Mayrhofer's_W=EF=BF=BDrterbuch?= Message-ID: <161227067646.23782.10699929820156439472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. von Simson, thank you for the detailed and useful info. Sincerely yours, Ferenc From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Feb 21 00:50:32 2001 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 00:50:32 +0000 Subject: Khambesvari puujaa with buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227067650.23782.2240355787024392153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Ronald Hutton, in The Pagan Religions of the British Isles, their > Nature and Legacy, (Oxford, UK and Cambridge, MA: Basil Blackwell, > 1991) maintains there was no such practice, and the belief that there > was is a misunderstanding of the texts. His main point throughout the > book is that we know almost nothing about the pre-Christian religions > of the later UK and Ireland, and most of what we think we know we > don't. I didn't suggest this was necessarily done in the British Isles -- that's why I said Nordic (Scandinavia and Germany to be precise. AFAIK, the "spread-eagle" was an offering to Odin / Wotan partly in memory of his own sacrifice when he hung for nine days from the World Ash tree. Literary sources are bound to be limited and I must admit that I have not made a special study of primary sources to evaluate their reliability but I think Adam of Bremen's account (c10th CE) of the goings-on at Uppsala should be taken into account. I believe that the practice in continental Europe is also mentioned in Roman Latin sources but I do have references to hand. I'll look out for Hutton's book to see what he has to say. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 21 13:14:47 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 05:14:47 -0800 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067661.23782.14536970679226613528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sri Vidyasankar wrote: <> =>These arguments *must* be extended to every ancient and medieval figure. But I was mainly addressing the literalist camp. However, any supposedly historical figure supported solely by literary evidence, become by default a purely literary figure. When there exists not a thread of firsthand historical evidence in support of a presumed historical figure, that figure can only be considered legendary, if not epical or mythical. This is no sophisticated reasoning. <> =>The problem is this: as soon as we begin speaking in terms of "The Buddha," the backdrop shifts to that of a church and we're immediately obliged to offer incense and bend the knee. And this is how Buddhism is taught in the colleges, as if one were attending a Buddhist formation course. But be forewarned, The Historical Buddha will increasingly become a proverbial elephant standing in the middle of the cocktail party. <> =>This is what I believe could be called "the puranic interpretation of the Buddha." But I'm not sure. Do you mean "many buddhas" in the legendary sense that the early Buddhist friars did not claim to promulgate any "new" teaching, but a teaching that had only been lost and rediscovered many times before? A related legend is that Gotama was actually only one of a long series of avatara buddhas who came down at intervals to teach the same doctrine, but in a new idiom. There are twenty-four such buddhas with different names all of whom appeared before Gotama. Yet, you may also mean by "buddha" a trans-traditional paranormal being synonymous to the jivan-mukta or mahasiddha, a nirvan-ized or "liberated" person. And yes, for many this type of conception is far more comfortable, say, than the core Pali image of an ultimate, unsurpassable, "one and only Buddha" that no other paranormal being in the ascetic history of the universe can touch - a divine teacher of men and gods, and before whom none but the naive would refuse to bend the knee. So yes, the notion of "one among many buddhas" it is certainly more comfortable, more "agreeable." But I still feel it's wrong. It is common for spiritual seekers to go through a phase where they want to pin their highest ideals on the irreducible historical figure imagined to exist amid the compilation of nameless thinkers and Buddha myths. This approach is also "comforting" because it allows one to carefully form in ones mind an ideal, politically correct father-figure god with the option of changing it as time goes by. Just look at the myriad Buddha images existing throughout the cultures of the world. And it's true, one really does possess abundant freedom to pick and choose from the broad availability amalgamated literary sources; from the constricted figures coming through the sutta artifacts, to the other clearly diverse characterizations evident, say, with yogi Angirasa, our "kundalini Buddha," as found in the early episodes of the Vinaya text. There are other more marginal and ill-assorted materials, as well, like Suttanipada, Dammapada, and Jataka texts; and then of course we have the whole Mahayanic dispensation, which greatly elaborates the notion of perennial and celestial Buddhas. Sooner or later one is bound to sober up. -- Oh dear. Running long? VT. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 21 13:32:17 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 05:32:17 -0800 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067663.23782.15330706802131293410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Continued]: A study of the quasi-historicity and mythic background of the Jesus story could help in this regard. One becomes amazed how the Roman Church based its entire universal view on what can only be seen as a purely concocted figure called Jesus, "The Christ," but which was strongly imbued with the Orisis-Isis-Horus myth - thank god! For one learns from mythology that ?myth-in-itself? has a tremendous cultural validity. But for some funny reason, people accept Lords Shiva, Ram, Ganesh and Krsna as purely mythic beings. They understand the story as "only a story." Yet still, in doing so, they willingly entrust themselves to the stirring iconographic dramaturgy, allowing it to spiritualize and actuate their consciousness. "'And what about The Buddha?" "He's patently historically." Or so one thinks; and whenever one is challenged by the fairytale bio - "Well, that's just adornment added later to the *irreducibly historical* Buddha." Sri Vidyasankar wrote: <> =>I would like to know how inclined they would be to continuously refer to the figure of Jesus as "The Christ" when discussing the early history of Christianity. This is why it's so essential for the myth to remain myth, and for myth to remain mystery. But as with Christianity, creeping literalism impinged on the creation of the Buddha myth; and god only knows why the story took on its particular gloss, accreted _and bifurcated_ time after time. Hundreds of versions began to circulate. Multi-level racketeers stepped in and - _ta-daa!_ - Tupperware parties proliferated everywhere. To attract to more subscribers in their membership drive, appealing histories with astro-theological underpinnings were carefully drafted. Soon there arose contending Mafiosi who sought to control the entire market share? By the convening of the mid-third century Peacock Council, the muscle bound cult of state-decreed orthodoxy was staunchly entrenched, and the only remaining business at hand was to consolidate power, standardize dogma and silence all contention = heresy. <> =>Well, this is actually a very interesting mechanism - "suspended disbelief." It's key to all literary, theatrical and dramaturgical arts - and certainly no tragedy. It is through this apparent human need to be taken for a roller coaster ride of the emotions that allows catharsis to works its wonders. The willingness of audiences to suspend disbelief is precisely what has lent the Indian Epics such brilliant power over the vast communal consciousness, sustaining much universal appeal to this today. So the natural progression, then, should not be toward the skeptical, but "giving in" to the theatrical dimension of life - to renounce ones literalism and see the endeavors of the early Buddhist Church as an attempt to fabricate another grand puranic tapestry. It is a natural impulse for the Indian artist to stretch and string his audience out; to empower, inform and loom imagination - to involve the mind deeply and transfix it to the dream. But the Buddhist Theater developed quite late. It also coincided with advancements in writing technology and the crazed human endeavor to prove things literally. This dwarfed gestation and denied its troubadours ample time to explore the ragas. Rasa suffered, and as taste buds relate, the fare turned out quite fascistic in flavor. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 21 15:32:30 2001 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 07:32:30 -0800 Subject: Dancers: viRali, basavi, devadasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067667.23782.9613193078696043501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Rajaraja Cholan I, convened 400 best dancers from > his > kingdom and they were attached to his temple in > Tanjore > around 1000 CE. All their names are recrded on that > temple's walls. Note that all their names start as > "nakkan2" (< Skt. nagna 'naked'), not a single > devadasi > without nakkan2 in her name! Dr NG, A side remark. According to the MTL, 'Nakkan' seems to have had various meanings: 1. naked person (tiruvAymozi 10.8, 12000 paDi Com.) "ammaNamAyuLLavan tikamparanAkaiyAlE nakkanenRu pErAY" = "the naked person is dubbed nakkan since he's a digambara" 2. arhat (tiruviLaiyATalpurANam, pANTi. 10) 3. Siva. (tEvAram, 619,2) This is the commonest sense of "nakkan", "nakkapirAn" in the Vaishnava corpus also. Also, "nakkapirAntamar" = saivites. This corpus is temporally close to Rajaraja. 4. Ancient title of dancing girls attached to temples. There's an epigraphic ref (SII, ii, 261) quoted in the MTL: "ittaLi nakkan cOzakulacuntarikkup paGku onRum" which may be translated as "one share to nakkan cOzakulacuntari of this temple". Hope this helps, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Feb 21 08:34:38 2001 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 08:34:38 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067652.23782.6169441594245502167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan writes: >The foll. point is not mentioned so far in the >discussion, and may be relevant. > >The situation in Ceylon and SE Asia is quite different in medieval >times. Then, SE Asia had thriving Shaivism and kings professing >Shaivaite religion are many. In Ceylon, no such recordings. Since >ancient times from the east coast of India, Shaivism played a major >role in SE Asia, but not among the Buddhists of Ceylon. >By looking at the Brahmins in SE Asia, we cannot project many >brahmins present in medieval Sinhala society. When I referred to S.E. Asia, I meant the parts of S.E. Asia which are Southern Buddhist today. Indonesia is irrelevant to this. We should not read back a separation between 'Hindus' and 'Buddhists' which was far less in ancient times, especially before the coming of Islam, and completely anachronistic in the early period. >Dr. Lance Cousens: >>I doubt this. It seems much more likely that brahmins played some role in >>the capital cities and courts, at least down until the arrival of the >>Portuguese. Exactly as they do subsequently in South-East Asia. I agree >>that there is no evidence that their numbers were ever very large. > >See above. Brahmins in SE Asia is due to Shaivism. In art, we have >huge Shaivaite temples in Khmer, monumental Hindu bronzes in >Thailand, Indonesia, They are more important in the period when there is strong support from aristocracy/royalty. I suspect that, as in Ceylon, popular suspect remained largely with the Buddhist sangha. > the entire script of SE Asia shows South Indian >influence. Or, influence from Ceylon. Or, most likely, from both. And, of course, from South India mediated by Ceylon. Of course, there is no doubt that Shaiva religious activities were carried out in Cambodia and had important influences on the incoming Thais. At the same time, we now know that Buddhism using Pali as its scriptural language was present in a large area from central Burma to central Thailand from at least the early centuries A.D. I suspect that there were some brahmins present at royal courts throughout this period. The same is true for the worship of various deities. The majority of Buddhist laity do not reject the deities who have been worshipped or at least recognized among them from the earliest beginnings of Buddhism. This is especially true for Indra and Brahmaa (and a number of lesser figures). As the importance of Vishnu and Shiva grew among South Asians generally, so it grew among Buddhists - but, perhaps less universally and less strongly than among others. >In Indonesia, the word for moon is tiGkaL (a Drav. word >in tamil, kannada; A. C. Burnell, vamza-brAhmaNa). There was a large >syncretism between Mahayana Buddhism and Saivism in SE Asia >happening for centuries. I don't know whether syncretism is the right word, but certainly there is some measure of this at times. But this was certainly present in Ceylon also, if not on the same scale. Everywhere local religious traditions are also very important, as indeed in the Tamil country. >Buddhists of Ceylon constructed myths of much antiquity in the first >some centuries CE. Myth constructing is a rather widespread human activity. So you will have to be more specific. Which specific statements do you consider to be myths constructed in Ceylon ? Are you arguing that the Puraa.nas were written in Ceylon ? > This is projected back by the West and IE >specialists onto Buddha legends, as Ven. Tantra indiactes. That is nonsense. The Sinhalese and others could manage this by themselves ! > The dating >of Buddhist texts have vested interests, Irrelevant. What is the actual evidence ? Which texts are we talking about ? > and are quite doubtful from >a scholarly perspective. Now that first century A.D. Buddhist manuscripts have been found in Afghanistan, this position is very difficult to maintain in the extreme form you are putting forward. -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 21 18:57:48 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 10:57:48 -0800 Subject: Tamil Virtual University In-Reply-To: <005e01c09b9c$b6d527c0$149dfea9@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <161227067674.23782.4032126416483123578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" wrote: > this image at > http://www.tamilvu.org/coresite/images/cwtmthru.gif > is that of thiruvalluvar. > > looks feminine below the neck !!! My thinking is the gifted shilpi from a long line of traditonal sculptors, Tiru. Vai. Ganapati Sthapati wants to invoke zAntarasam in the huge Valluvar statue at Kumari munai. Does not the compassionate Avalokitezvara look (almost) feminine? My best, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 21 11:28:59 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 11:28:59 +0000 Subject: Website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067655.23782.5517079312056271967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, milton degeorge wrote: > Hello all, > Here's a simple question: What's the website for this list? The simple answer is http://www.indology.org.uk The hard answer is http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology/ -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 21 11:33:39 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 11:33:39 +0000 Subject: E-texts In-Reply-To: <20010220152043.51692.qmail@web9101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067657.23782.16614179887776877676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > Are any e-text versions of the Puranas available > online? Yes. See INDOLOGY's website. Also, get in touch with Peter Schriener. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 21 16:43:59 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 11:43:59 -0500 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067669.23782.4779709571911087345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra writes - >One is awestruck at the insistence of so many scholars >to continue to speak on the subject of Buddhism as if >one Sakyamuni actually existed. This is particularly >troubling in light of the mere ?tissue of fable? and >implausible history upon which ? perhaps better put >??Buddha-ism? so infirmly rests. I think it behooves anyone responding to a posting to read the posting carefully and as fairly as possible. You do not seem to have done that. I expressed caution in the first part of my posting, by saying "early Buddhism" seems to have thought... I also quoted actual Suttas in the Pali Canon. This kind of uncareful reading is a little too common on this list. You can read anything into someone's posting that you like if you pick out certain words and leave out others. This is especially easy to do on an internet discussion list as you don't ever have the opportunity of meeting the person face to face. Most scholars that I know do believe that there was a historical Buddha; however, I do not know of too many who would say that they have no doubt in this regard. I would fall into this category of tending to believe that there was a Buddha but still maintaining some doubt. >Therefore, the question truly asks itself: Where is >there any experiential knowledge upon which one bases >ones presumption of the existence of a personal >founder of the Buddha cult? Please prevent some evidence for your position. Otherwise, it's difficult to have a discussion. >In addition to the ?the Buddha,? there are other >worryingly unqualified usages such as ?the caste >system? and ?the tradition.? Again, you did not read the posting carefully. I mentioned the idea that one is born into a certain jati/varna as a possible defining factor. This was the factor that the Vaaset.t.ha Sutta seems to be arguing against. I am not sure if the Sutta mentions the words jaati and varn.a; however it clearly uses the term "brahmin." Also, in verses 58-59 the Sutta goes through various professions and argues against people being born into them: "for men are farmers by their acts"... etc. (B. Nanamoli Transl.) >We could ask ourselves, are we in a scientific >community or church here? I don't see how you are reaching this conclusion. Please explain your full train of thought. I also don't see how this adds anything constructive to the discussion. Sincerely, Lynken Ghose _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Wed Feb 21 20:37:37 2001 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 12:37:37 -0800 Subject: dharmapada (Sanskrit cribs for Pali texts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067682.23782.13571271000412309508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Sanskrit translations of Pali texts< Jaina, Komalacandra. 1973. Pali-pravesika. Varanasi: Tara Pablikesansa Pandeya, Rama-avadha; Misra Ravinatha. 1975 (third edn). Paki-prakrta-apabhramsa-samgraha. Varanasi: Visvavidyalaya Prakasana. Pathaka, Jagannatha. Date not given. Milindapanho [Milindaprasna] [vimaticchedaparyanta samskrtacchayayukta]. Varanasi, Dilli, Patana: Motilala Banarasidasa. As I recall, there is also a publication by Bhadanta Ananda Kausalyayana belonging to this category. I do not have the details handy. ashok aklujkar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 21 12:43:19 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 12:43:19 +0000 Subject: dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067659.23782.964299879451491234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>In Indonesia, the word for moon is tiGkaL (a Drav. word NG>in tamil, kannada; A. C. Burnell, vamza-brAhmaNa). There was a NG>large syncretism between Mahayana Buddhism and Saivism in SE Asia NG>happening for centuries. Dr. L. Cousins: << I don't know whether syncretism is the right word, but certainly there is some measure of this at times. But this was certainly present in Ceylon also, if not on the same scale. Everywhere local religious traditions are also very important, as indeed in the Tamil country. >> >?From Lokesh Chandra,1979, ODDiyAna: a new interpretation (L. Strenbach fel. volume): "the acculturation of 'Siva into Buddhist tradition may have takenplace in South India and thence it was transmitted to Indonesia where 'Siva-Buddha syncretism was deeply entrenched." The incoming Thais borrowed many Shaivaite practices from the Khmers. Among Cambodian kings we find many Shaivaites. And shaivaite monuments and art. Shaivaite brahminism is due to this. For example, Karaikkal Ammaiyar(5th century), a Tamil shaivaite saint is first reperesented under the feet of dancing Nataraja in Cambodia. Her images are many (many have been recently found also, an art historian from Leiden sent an email about this.) in Cambodia, and this is before we find representations of her in South India. We can compare the art findings of Shaiva and Vaishnavaite images from archaeology in Cambodia/Thailand and Ceylon. I would think those from Ceylon would be few orders less compare with those from mainland SE Asia. After the mahaayaana purge of the abhayagiri vihara, less and less brahmins or brahminical deities like Shiva/Vishnu are from Ceylon. OTOH, this syncretism continues to flourish in SE Asia in later centuries. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Wed Feb 21 20:43:26 2001 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 12:43:26 -0800 Subject: dharmapada (Sanskrit cribs for Pali texts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067684.23782.106857492477080516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please add to my last message: Sharma, Batuknath (Pandit). 1972. Pali Jatakavali. Varanasi. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 21 14:50:24 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 14:50:24 +0000 Subject: Dancers: viRali, basavi, devadasi Message-ID: <161227067665.23782.5223800981657468968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the thread on viRaliyar dancing women of the sangam literature, I quoted Prof. Dr. J.V. Chelliah who made a detailed study and translation of pattu-paaTTu (10 songs) of sangam literature. "The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise her whole body could not have been described." (J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55). http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R1709 Dr. V. J. Roebuck: >Perhaps they were wearing diaphanous cotton garments, as we see in >sculptures at Amaravati and elsewhere? Though it's possible that they were wearing thin garments, the poem does not explicitly mention cotton or garments. In this highly polished poem, more likely is the mekalaa girdle. Comparable is the Indian sculpture of dancers, yakshis, ... where they are well adorned with jewelry, yet their private parts are fully revealed. Let us take an example where the words, 'alkul' or 'mulai' is mentoned: izai aNi polinta Entu kOTTu alkul maTavaral uN kaN vAL nutal viRali - puRa. 89:1-2 "Woman of the caste of bards! With your shining forehead and your eyes darkened by collyrium, with your simple simple manners and your sloping mons glowing with a string of pearls, ..." (p. 64, Hart-Heifetz translation of puRam, Columbia UP, 1999). Professional experts like commentators and translators commonly translate 'alkul' as mons pubis or Venus' mound. For instance, "This seems to refer to the process of having attained puberty, which was accompanied by aNaGku, the dangerous and mysterious power, taking seat in the woman's in the woman's breasts, and by the light-colored spots, termed cuNaGku (cf. DED 2188 (a) yellow spreading spots on the body of women, regarded as beautiful), appearing on the alkul (Mons Veneris) and the breasts - the two parts of the female body which obviously belong to the most exciting erotogenic zones." (K.V.Zvelebil, The nature of Sacred power in old Tamil texts, Archive Orientalni, 1979). Few centuries after the sangam epoch, let me give a translation of a poem where viRali dancer and the heroine engage in suggestive, but inexplicit talks. The prabandham is caGkara rAcEntira cOzan2 ulA: viRali dancer: "Is your waist not a serpent with its jewel that dispels the dark?" arivai: "O viRali, if this were so, would it let its jewels slip away when I bow to our king in this street covered with jewels?" [Devadasi dancers go by the title, cULai/sULe 'light, lustre, jewel' (cf. cULAmaNi/cUDAmaNi) and maNikam 'ruby'.] viRali dancer: "Are those full breasts the hill of Agastya, who played at swallowing the roaring sea? arivai: "If that were so, would the sandal upon them burn and peel away when the south wind blows?" (Couplets: 277-280, Translation by D. Shulman). South wind is malayamArutam from malaya/potiyil. UVS Ayyar writes Potiyil is Potalaka of Buddhists in his puRanAn2URu edition. For the early viRali dancers and their connexion to devadasi institutions, Saskia Kersenboom, S.C. Kersenboom-Story, "ViRali - Possible sources of the Devadasi tradition in the Tamil bardic period", J. of Tamil studies, No. 19, June 1981, p. 19-41. Rajaraja Cholan I, convened 400 best dancers from his kingdom and they were attached to his temple in Tanjore around 1000 CE. All their names are recrded on that temple's walls. Note that all their names start as "nakkan2" (< Skt. nagna 'naked'), not a single devadasi without nakkan2 in her name! Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Feb 21 20:04:25 2001 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 15:04:25 -0500 Subject: dharmapada (Sanskrit cribs for Pali texts) In-Reply-To: <20010221185748.3169.qmail@web313.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067677.23782.10077977656330321619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List: I must plague the list, alas, with an undergraduate question. Pali is not taught at the University of Toronto anymore. I have begun to look at Pali myself, and am trying to get the hang of the phonetic changes. But it would be much easier if there were Sanskrit translations of Pali texts that I could use, especially editions that pair the Sanskrit and Pali. I seem to remember reading that there was some translation of at least basic Pali texts into Sanskrit (I know I have heard of a '_dharmapada_'). Professor Stella Sandahl, this university's lone Sanskrit professor, says she doesn't know of any such translations. I have yet to hear from Prof. Leonard Priestley, who as an expert in Indian Buddhism may know of texts Stella has not heard of. In the meantime, is anybody on the list able and willing to tell me of texts and editions of this sort? Much thanks. P. Ernest From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Feb 21 17:46:54 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 17:46:54 +0000 Subject: Dancers: viRali, basavi, devadasi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067671.23782.15165438713055579313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan writes >In the thread on viRaliyar dancing women of >the sangam literature, I quoted Prof. Dr. J.V. Chelliah >who made a detailed study and translation of >pattu-paaTTu (10 songs) of sangam literature. >"The songstress seems to have been quite naked, as otherwise >her whole body could not have been described." >(J. V. Chelliah, Pattupattu, SISS society, Madras, 1962, p. 55). >http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R1709 > >Dr. V. J. Roebuck: >>Perhaps they were wearing diaphanous cotton garments, as we see in >>sculptures at Amaravati and elsewhere? N. Ganesan writes >Though it's possible that they were wearing thin garments, >the poem does not explicitly mention cotton or garments. >In this highly polished poem, more likely is the mekalaa >girdle. Comparable is the Indian sculpture of dancers, >yakshis, ... where they are well adorned with jewelry, >yet their private parts are fully revealed. But in fact almost all these figures are meant to be wearing diaphanous garments: you can only see the hems and the areas where the cloth is bunched up. This is what gave rise to my suggestion above. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 22 04:13:46 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 01 20:13:46 -0800 Subject: re. dvija varNa Message-ID: <161227067689.23782.868374162422428744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Lynken Ghose, "dvija varNa" http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0102&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=37265 I'm looking at two components in a posting - its content and its process. I was not at all concerned with the content of your post, but its process, i.e., its fixations, imagery and idiom. I was therefore not "responding," but rather, deploying a curious splinter of speech in order to insight fertility of discourse, as well as morph fresh modes of application. If you mask off the introit and read that post again, you may possibly find its message less menacing. For added rap see recent ?tudes. Slam dunk. Your outs. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 22 00:39:21 2001 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 00:39:21 +0000 Subject: Dancers: viRali, basavi, devadasi Message-ID: <161227067687.23782.2316238466948664454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Comparable is the Indian sculpture of dancers, >>yakshis, ... where they are well adorned with jewelry, >>yet their private parts are fully revealed. >But in fact almost all these figures are meant to be wearing diaphanous >garments: you can only see the hems and the areas where >the cloth is bunched up. This is what gave rise to my suggestion above. Thanks for the suggestion. Perhaps. Also, we cannot neglect nakedness altogether. Victorian value systems are not applicable in ancient India. The devadAsis were called sULe/cULai ('light, lustre', Cf.cULAmaNi/cUDAmaNi) and mANikam ('ruby'). Our knowledge in this area is little, and further explorations are possible. As recently as 1995, the ancient practice of going naked as offerings to Goddess Ellamma continue. Goddess Ellamma myths make her an outcaste, and to Her, basavi devadasis are dedicated in large numbers. "The most ancient shrine of Ellamma is at Ugargol in Belgaum district, Karnataka. In a village named Chandra Giri, Karnataka, devotees proceed from home to temple in a state of nudity to worship ReNuka-Ellamma, the ancient Earth mother. Indian Antiquary (1882), pp. 122-3" (Pupul Jayakar, The Earth mother, p.223, Harper & Row). " RENUKAMBA'S REVENGE (Reuter's report from Bangalore, March 7, 1995) More than 1500 policemen stood guard in a southern Indian village on Tuesday to prevent Hindu pilgrims from carrying out a centuries-old tradition of trekking to a hill-top temple in the nude. Police sealed entry to the village of Chandragutti, 400 km (260 miles) northwest of Bangalore, where a week-long festival dedicated to the Hindu goddess Renukamba began on Tuesday, Dist. Police Chief Chandrasekhar said. Every year for centuries, thousands of low-caste Hindus would strip for a holy dip in the Varada river, then climb four km (2.5 mils) with their clothes off to offer prayers to the goddess at the hill-top temple. But police banned the nude pilgrimage in 1987 .... The worshippers then attacked police and paraded 10 police officials including two women constables naked along the banks of the river. Until 1986, more than 100,000 women men, and children used to make the pilgrimage every yesr." The Times of London (March 15, 1986) "Naked Worshippers Lay Bare Dignity of Police and Press: Each year devotees of the Hindu goddess, Renuka Devi, gather on the banks of the Varada river in Karnataka, strip and parade naked for two and a half miles to an ancient temple. They have been doing it for centuries, but recently the festival has become the centre of unenviable attention from the media and do-gooders anxious to reform the practice. At the weekend the festival went sour as thousands of pilgrims turned on their tormenters from the press, a group of social workers and the police, forcibly stripped them and paraded them through the dusty village streets." (W. Doniger, Splitting the Difference). Old habits die hard. Goddess Ellamma/Maari myths in different variants, were told in this list. She is connected with devadasi dancers, and is usually called "lady with 1000 yonis" in tamil poems and legends. From Maharashtra down South, Ellamma/Mari myth is the most widespread of all goddess myths, and Renukamahatmyam in the MBh. epic is called as first well-known "Sanskritization" at work (Goldman). The headless Lajjagauri sculptures in a love-ready posture of legs are related to the outcaste mAri/elli-amma whose head is chopped off. Regards, N. Ganesan Cautions L. C. Orr in her book on Temple women in medieval Tamilnadu, OUP, 2000: "Our knowledge of prostitutes - even in recent history, but certainly in earlier times - is far too slight for us to speculate about whether there were in fact "traditional" communities or castes of prostitutes in India and about how colonialism may have changed their circumstances. In Indian literature, from a very early period, there are references to vezyas and ga.nikaas ("prostitutes" or "courtesans"), but they are for the most part portrayed as ideal types or stock characters of various sorts, depending on the genre (e.g., as donors in Buddhist literature, as royal attendents in Epic literature, and as cultural beauties in Sanskrit drama). We know very little about what prostitution or concubinage actually entailed in various periods of Indian history or what relation there may be between the vezyas and gaNikas of literature and the forms of prostitution encountered (or created by) European colonists." Like calling some castes as "criminal", "devadasis" were called a caste by themselves! and was banned. But they were the "jewels" of old India. This may be the situation (ie., our lack of knowledge) in the ancient Near East still further removed in time. There also we find songstresses playing lute represnted as 'nude'. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0101&L=indology&P=R13973 "Prostitutes are mentioned together with various groups of women engaged in more or less relgious activities. Inana/Ishtar seems to have been presented as a protective goddess of prostitutes. In cult songs the goddess sometimes refers herself as a prostitute, and her temple is metaphorically called a tavern. It seems possible that prostitution was to some extent organised in the same way as other female activities (such as midwifery or wetnursing) and in some way manipulated through the temple organisation. But this is a subject which is still not clearly understood and where further research would shed light upon the exploitation of women in Mesopotamia." (p. 151, Gods, demons and symbols of ancient Mesopotamia, J. Black and T. Rickards). _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mirek at MS19.HINET.NET Wed Feb 21 20:17:14 2001 From: mirek at MS19.HINET.NET (Miroslav Rozehnal) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 04:17:14 +0800 Subject: dharmapada (Sanskrit cribs for Pali texts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067679.23782.9923535223754899243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 03:04 PM 2001/2/21 -0500, Phillip Ernest wrote >Dear List: > >I must plague the list, alas, with an undergraduate question. > >Pali is not taught at the University of Toronto anymore. I have begun to >look at Pali myself, and am trying to get the hang of the phonetic >changes. But it would be much easier if there were Sanskrit translations >of Pali texts that I could use, especially editions that pair the Sanskrit >and Pali. I seem to remember reading that there was some translation of >at least basic Pali texts into Sanskrit (I know I have heard of a >'_dharmapada_'). Professor Stella Sandahl, this university's lone >Sanskrit professor, says she doesn't know of any such translations. I >have yet to hear from Prof. Leonard Priestley, who as an expert in Indian >Buddhism may know of texts Stella has not heard of. In the meantime, is >anybody on the list able and willing to tell me of texts and editions of >this sort? We are publishing an online translation of the Pali Dhammapada. You can find it on: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/dhapa.htm Twenty new verses are added each month, the whole Dhammapada will be finished soon. You will need to download a ttf font to be able to read the text, go to http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading.htm and download from there. Don't miss also the main page http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw with many informations about Buddhism in general. Regards, Miroslav Rozehnal From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 22 13:37:09 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 05:37:09 -0800 Subject: Correction Message-ID: <161227067698.23782.8751145954879987654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a recent post http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0102&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=34920 I wrongly cited Yaroslav Vassilkov as authoring a book on "The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch." Author and title intended are as follows: Yamplosky, Philip B. _The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch (The Text of the Tun-Huang Manuscript)_. New York: Columbia University Press, 1967. Apologies, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ghezziem at TIN.IT Thu Feb 22 09:15:43 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 09:15:43 +0000 Subject: about a myth Message-ID: <161227067693.23782.12066197757629660406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest all, I have found this French opera (alias melodrama): Catel, Charles-Simon (1773-1830): Les Bayad?res (libr. E. V. de Jouy), tragi-com?die in 3 acts; first perf. 1810. The librettist, Jouy, sustained to have drawn his inspiration from a "pourana" (sic) in which is told that "Schirven" (Shiva, I suppose) descended in the world as "rajah Devendren", and, at the end, married a "bajad?re" who is disposed to be satI for him. Before to return in the Heaven, he consecrates and blesses forever all the devadasis. I don't know this myth. Can anyone help me? Thanks in advance, Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From rpeck at NECA.COM Thu Feb 22 14:50:10 2001 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 09:50:10 -0500 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067700.23782.14994820389360103122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >[Continued]: A study of the quasi-historicity and mythic background of the >Jesus story could help in this regard. One becomes amazed how the Roman >Church based its entire universal view on what can only be seen as a >purely concocted figure called Jesus, "The Christ," >A study of the quasi-historicity and mythic background of the I was raised believing in the Christ and then rejected Christianity out of hand. I then turned East and after much digging I found that the East also distorted truth. Without the Eastern bias I could question origin of critical words and found other meanings with the original? literal translations. (The five ?M?,s of Tantra or the slitting of the tongue in the hathayogapradipika are excellent examples) I then returned to words of Jesus and again looked at key words and found wide discrepancies of literal meanings and traditional meanings. As an example, Matthew 6:6 becomes an Eastern sadhana on the power in the lower ?heart? or gut. I would cite a Chinese? Proverb, ?The finger pointing at the moon?. The finger becomes important in formal religions and the moon is forgotten. Krishna and Christ are beautiful cultured fingers, but what were they teaching? Are we questioning fingers or the teachings? Regards Bob From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 22 10:44:18 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 10:44:18 +0000 Subject: posting limits Message-ID: <161227067696.23782.4756070373625705055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I remind members of this forum that the recommended upper limit for a posting is 2k, i.e., one screenful of ASCII text. And no more than 15 postings per month per person. I have suspended N Ganesan until the end of March, since he has been over-posting grossly. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Feb 22 21:24:26 2001 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 13:24:26 -0800 Subject: ApizalizikSA In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010222205841.007989b0@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227067707.23782.11160037788319787843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List-members, I am looking for a copy of Apizali-zikSA. It was apparently published once in 1934 in the short-lived Journal of Vedic Studies (Lahore) by Raghu Vira. Unfortunately our library (or any UC library for that matter) does not have this volume. Does anyone know if this zikSA has been published elsewhere? Thanks in advance, Chandan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "Don't blame me...I voted for Kodos." From rpeck at NECA.COM Thu Feb 22 20:55:54 2001 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 15:55:54 -0500 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067705.23782.9256107601573342396.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, In response to private communications: I did not wish to deny the message of early religious writers since I believe that in general they speak very accurately. To generalize: Early (religious sic) writings speak of two classes of people, the sleep walkers and the awakened. They teach of how the awakened state can be reached. The method appears to be universal concerning a power within the self that can be stimulated or controlled. For instance, soma of the RV or quickening of the Judaic/Christians. Later institutional leaders who were not awakened could not understand soma or quickening and had to translate writings as related to remote supernatural powers which became the basis for priesthood and religion. The original teachers therefore had to become god like. In assuming that the early writers knew what they were saying, and ignoring the later commentaries or later accepted meanings of words, very worthwhile, applicable and universal teachings can be obtained. (Note, the referenced 5 ?M?s of tantra can be seen as describing the world of the awakened and not a drunken sexual orgy as commonly interpreted) Regards, Bob Peck From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 22 21:44:39 2001 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 16:44:39 -0500 Subject: Missing the Point of the Many Masks [was: dvija varNa] Message-ID: <161227067709.23782.12660421397071363439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Bob Peck wrote.. >..had to translate writings as related to remote supernatural powers >which >became the basis for priesthood and religion. The original >teachers >therefore had to become god like. Attributing super natural powers or myth making may be done by awakened people as well. This seems to be a method of communicating their experiences to people. Historically it is natural to expect batches of awakened people followed by batches of sleepwalkers to be followed by awakened. >In assuming that the early writers knew what they were saying, and > >ignoring the later commentaries or later accepted meanings of words, We can't really have a cut off date for "later", is it yAjnavalkya, pataJjali, Sankara, sAyaNa or ramaNa maharSi? They are all inspired by the same spirit, but in different ways. To decide a cut off date is highly subjective, and depends on what you are looking for. I know one executive who always used to classify his tasks into phase-1 and phase-2. Whatever is easy goes into phase-1 and whatever is difficult goes into phase-2. Likewise for some interpreters, whatever is easy to understand is "knowledge portion" and rest (even in the simple upaniSats), is "ritual junk". The moment we get lazy, we start resisting anything new and try to freeze what we know. Ofcourse I dont deny careless and premature attempts. >5 ?M?s/splitting the tongue Please explain. Regards, Bhadraiah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Feb 23 00:33:31 2001 From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 19:33:31 -0500 Subject: Maths/Sanskrit help needed Message-ID: <161227067711.23782.7049637859595264599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namaskar. I hope Dr. (Prof Emeritus) Iswar Chakravartty would be able to help. regards - Suresh - http://www.lskumar.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin Gansten To: Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 02:58 PM Subject: Maths/Sanskrit help needed > I sincerely request the help of anyone out there who specializes in one or > more of the following: > 1. Indian mathematics; > 2. Indian astronomy; > 3. Corrupt/hybrid forms of Sanskrit. > In an 18th century (?) South Indian astrological MS, I have come across the > following passage: > > zakaabdaapi gate jyotir viraame vopadezata.h > svadezakaalabhedena padmaadricandraagniyutaa.h zakaabdaa.h kalivatsaraa.h > kalyaabdaarkagato maasayutaas trikhaadrize.sata.h > labdhayutaasturayutaa.m samaasair api sa.myuta.h * > kha.m vazvaaghno dinayuta.h dvizazevaagnibhaas tribhi.h > lalabdhek.sa (-) nair hiina.m zukravaaraadika.m dinam > dyuga.na.m ga.nanair hitvaa bhaajayed api bhaajakai.h > labdha.m raazihata.m ze.sa.m khaagnibhir bhaajanair v.rtaa > bhaagaze.sa.m khatarkaghna.m h.rtahaaraikadaa puna.h > vikalaaz ca bhavanty evam aya.m syaan madhyakhecara.h > gu.nakaaro raver bhaa.na ziirendur haaraka sm.rta.h > zarendu tarka.sa.dbhaago khakhaarbhaagnirvidhogu.na.h > zaradarkanidhiz candra vasavo haaraka sm.rta.h > > * (another, but usually less correct, transcript of the same text reads: > lubdayuktaas tu rahitaa.m samaasair api sa.myuta.h) > > I am able to discern only fragments of meaning in this: the second line > obviously deals with the difference between the Saka and Kali eras, and > later there is mention of weekdays, and of the mean motion of a planet (? > madhyakhecara); also some basic mathematical terms (like words for > multiplication and division) and words signifying numbers according to the > ar.navaadi system -- but the overall meaning of the passage utterly escapes > me. I would greatly appreciate any help from scholars with experience of > this sort of texts -- or just from better Sanskritists than myself! > > Regards, > Martin Gansten From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Thu Feb 22 19:58:41 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 01 20:58:41 +0100 Subject: Maths/Sanskrit help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067703.23782.203759806704907490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I sincerely request the help of anyone out there who specializes in one or more of the following: 1. Indian mathematics; 2. Indian astronomy; 3. Corrupt/hybrid forms of Sanskrit. In an 18th century (?) South Indian astrological MS, I have come across the following passage: zakaabdaapi gate jyotir viraame vopadezata.h svadezakaalabhedena padmaadricandraagniyutaa.h zakaabdaa.h kalivatsaraa.h kalyaabdaarkagato maasayutaas trikhaadrize.sata.h labdhayutaasturayutaa.m samaasair api sa.myuta.h * kha.m vazvaaghno dinayuta.h dvizazevaagnibhaas tribhi.h lalabdhek.sa (-) nair hiina.m zukravaaraadika.m dinam dyuga.na.m ga.nanair hitvaa bhaajayed api bhaajakai.h labdha.m raazihata.m ze.sa.m khaagnibhir bhaajanair v.rtaa bhaagaze.sa.m khatarkaghna.m h.rtahaaraikadaa puna.h vikalaaz ca bhavanty evam aya.m syaan madhyakhecara.h gu.nakaaro raver bhaa.na ziirendur haaraka sm.rta.h zarendu tarka.sa.dbhaago khakhaarbhaagnirvidhogu.na.h zaradarkanidhiz candra vasavo haaraka sm.rta.h * (another, but usually less correct, transcript of the same text reads: lubdayuktaas tu rahitaa.m samaasair api sa.myuta.h) I am able to discern only fragments of meaning in this: the second line obviously deals with the difference between the Saka and Kali eras, and later there is mention of weekdays, and of the mean motion of a planet (? madhyakhecara); also some basic mathematical terms (like words for multiplication and division) and words signifying numbers according to the ar.navaadi system -- but the overall meaning of the passage utterly escapes me. I would greatly appreciate any help from scholars with experience of this sort of texts -- or just from better Sanskritists than myself! Regards, Martin Gansten From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Feb 23 16:02:15 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 01 11:02:15 -0500 Subject: Delhi World Sanskrit Conference, April 2001. Message-ID: <161227067714.23782.5729055444707517117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 23 11:12:16 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 01 11:12:16 +0000 Subject: Delhi World Sanskrit Conference, April 2001. Message-ID: <161227067713.23782.1078785557870773101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm curious to know how many of us are going to this meeting. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Feb 23 20:54:42 2001 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 01 12:54:42 -0800 Subject: ApizalizikSA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067716.23782.16108983498096394100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raghu Vira's edn is said to have been reprinted in Raghu Vira 1981. Vedic Studies. Satapitaka Series vol. 272. See also: Yudhisthira Mimamsaka. samvat 2024 second edn. Siksa-sutrani. Ajamera: Bharatiya-pracyavidya-pratisthana. Journal of the Kerala Univ. Oriental Research Institute and Manuscripts Library XVIII.2-3 (1971):199-204. Sarma, Srikrsna. 1993. Acarya Apisali ki krtiyom ka samiksatmaka adhyayana. Dehli: Nirmal Book Agency. LC no. PK541 A35 S37 1993. van Nooten, B. A. 1973. "The structure of a Sanskrit phonetic treatise." In Oriental Studies II.2 (= Acta et Communicationes Universitatis Tartuensis), pp. 403-36. ed by Konks I; Numerkund, P.; Mall, L. This contains text and translation. The Varnoccarana-siksa edited and translated into Hindi by Swami Dayananda in Vikrama samvat 1936 (reprint 1974 A.D.: Bahalagadha (Sonipata-Harayana): Sri Ramalala Kapura Trust Granthamala 42) and considered to be a shorter recension of Paniniya-siksa by some scholars bears considerable similarity to Apisali-siksa. aklujkar >I am looking for a copy of Apizali-zikSA. It was apparently published >once in 1934 in the short-lived Journal of Vedic Studies (Lahore) by >Raghu Vira. Unfortunately our library (or any UC library for that >matter) does not have this volume. >chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu > || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Fri Feb 23 21:16:05 2001 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 01 13:16:05 -0800 Subject: 'Aasti' ? Message-ID: <161227067720.23782.13728185798101692170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "aasti" in colloquial Tamil usage typically means the inheritance that you get from your parents. -Srini. Martin Gansten wrote: > From my South Indian astrological texts, here is another word I haven't > been able to find in available dictionaries: aasti. From the context, it > would appear to be a monetary term: the native of such-and-such a horoscope > will earn so-and-so many aasti-s, etc. Could this perhaps be a Dravidian > loan-word? All suggestions appreciated. > > Thanks, > Martin Gansten From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Fri Feb 23 21:08:17 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 01 22:08:17 +0100 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010222205841.007989b0@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227067718.23782.87717905146883699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From my South Indian astrological texts, here is another word I haven't been able to find in available dictionaries: aasti. From the context, it would appear to be a monetary term: the native of such-and-such a horoscope will earn so-and-so many aasti-s, etc. Could this perhaps be a Dravidian loan-word? All suggestions appreciated. Thanks, Martin Gansten From noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 23 21:33:23 2001 From: noorjahan_begum at HOTMAIL.COM (Noorjahan Begum) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 03:03:23 +0530 Subject: 'Aasti' ? Message-ID: <161227067722.23782.5224349658540677022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten, Aasti is a loan - word from Telugu language(Dravidian). It denotes property. Prof. Noorjahan Begum >From: Martin Gansten >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: 'Aasti' ? >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:08:17 +0100 > >From my South Indian astrological texts, here is another word I haven't >been able to find in available dictionaries: aasti. From the context, it >would appear to be a monetary term: the native of such-and-such a horoscope >will earn so-and-so many aasti-s, etc. Could this perhaps be a Dravidian >loan-word? All suggestions appreciated. > >Thanks, >Martin Gansten _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Sat Feb 24 12:27:16 2001 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 07:27:16 -0500 Subject: 'Aasti' ? Message-ID: <161227067732.23782.14137629221445489101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/24/01 5:37:48 AM, Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE writes: << >>tatprabhumuulaat ayutadvaya-aastilaabhavaan 'on account of his master, he >>earns twenty thousand aasti-s.') > >How about: 'from his master, he comes to own [lit. becomes the possessor >of] a property of twenty thousand [currency units understood].' >> Since Sanskrit muula can mean 'capital, principal', shouldn't one translate 'from the capital of his master...'? Thomas Burke From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Sat Feb 24 07:28:59 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 08:28:59 +0100 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067724.23782.2458168708255166154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Srini Pichumani and Noorjahan Begum for their input on the meaning of 'aasti' in Tamil and Telugu. 'Property' and 'inheritance' do not exactly match the sense in which the word appears to be used in my texts, but at least they belong to the same sphere of meaning. (An example: tatprabhumuulaat ayutadvaya-aastilaabhavaan 'on account of his master, he earns twenty thousand aasti-s.') Regards, Martin Gansten From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Feb 24 08:30:51 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 08:30:51 +0000 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010224082859.007e4900@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227067726.23782.12433945534570445229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten writes: >'Property' and 'inheritance' do not >exactly match the sense in which the word appears to be used in my texts, >but at least they belong to the same sphere of meaning. (An example: >tatprabhumuulaat ayutadvaya-aastilaabhavaan 'on account of his master, he >earns twenty thousand aasti-s.') How about: 'from his master, he comes to own [lit. becomes the possessor of] a property of twenty thousand [currency units understood].' The idea of building up property (which could then be left to one's heirs) would fit quite happily with the suggestions put forward by Srini Pichumani and Noorjahan Begum. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Sat Feb 24 10:37:45 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 11:37:45 +0100 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067728.23782.13312538118930840548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>tatprabhumuulaat ayutadvaya-aastilaabhavaan 'on account of his master, he >>earns twenty thousand aasti-s.') > >How about: 'from his master, he comes to own [lit. becomes the possessor >of] a property of twenty thousand [currency units understood].' You're right; that could be it. Thank you. The meaning 'property' is supported by another passage which I just came across in the same text: g.rhak.setraadi-aastiv.rddhiz ca saukhya.m ca phala.m bhavet. Best, Martin Gansten From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 24 12:20:12 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 12:20:12 +0000 Subject: 'Aasti' ? Message-ID: <161227067730.23782.15320542337197008175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >How about: 'from his master, he comes to own [lit. becomes the possessor >of] a property of twenty thousand [currency units understood].' This is correct. aastika = 'possessor' (of belief in God), and naastika = 'non-possessor'. naasti is explaine as the opposite of aasti by pauranikas. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Feb 24 13:50:03 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 13:50:03 +0000 Subject: Indological Book House: bad business practice Message-ID: <161227067735.23782.2749907163317316129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It has been brought to my attention that the Indological Book House has been senting unsolicited email advertising to members of this list. The IBH has refused to stop sending such junk mail, even when requested. (The junk mail they are sending out appears to be a publications catalogue, but it is illegible on most computers.) I advise all members of INDOLOGY to treat the Indological Book House with great caution. Be aware that their business practice is poor and that if you once get onto their mailing list it may be hard to get off it again. If patrons of this list continue to be harassed by IBH, we shall need to take a stronger line, and start making it publicly known across the internet that this is a company to be avoided. Since this list reaches many hundreds of influential indologists, I would think that negative publicity here would have some impact with the company. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Feb 24 15:03:47 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 15:03:47 +0000 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067737.23782.6753437834268664432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkataraman Iyer writes: > >This is correct. aastika = 'possessor' (of belief in God), >and naastika = 'non-possessor'. naasti is explained as the >opposite of aasti by pauranikas. Surely these terms are usually taken as being derived from asti ("there is") and naasti ("there isn't"): hence "one who says there is/isn't [a God]?" Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 24 17:18:55 2001 From: milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM (milton degeorge) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 17:18:55 +0000 Subject: Saivagamas. Message-ID: <161227067741.23782.17293324040405252901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi all, Does anyone know of any English translations of the Saivagamas? Thanks in advance, Milton DeGeorge Jr. Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Sat Feb 24 16:45:21 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 17:45:21 +0100 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067739.23782.11608768898706529778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkataraman Iyer wrote: >This is correct. aastika = 'possessor' (of belief in God), >and naastika = 'non-possessor'. naasti is explaine as the >opposite of aasti by pauranikas. Naasti as in naastika negates asti (a verb: '[there] is'), not aasti. Aasti (as found in the text under discussion: the Dhruvanaa.dii) is a noun. Thomas Burke wrote: >Since Sanskrit muula can mean 'capital, principal', shouldn't one translate >'from the capital of his master...'? Not, I think, in the present context. The idiom of the text is highly stereotyped, and -muulaat is used very frequently, always in the sense of 'by means of, on account of' -- e.g., vyaapaaramuulaat 'by means of business', vivaahamuulaat 'on account of marriage', etc. Regards, Martin Gansten From girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 25 07:04:02 2001 From: girish_bvb at YAHOO.COM (Girish Bhaskaruni) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 01 23:04:02 -0800 Subject: Criminals at large In-Reply-To: <20010220182012.19943.qmail@web2302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067745.23782.3239046849439844228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hello venkat, happy to see you break the silence. yours girish --- Venkat Kesaraju wrote: > --- "Narayan R.Joshi" wrote: > > According to my opinion, Indology is not the place > > to wash dirty linens of > > Indian politics, especially self-serving politics > > practiced by late Indira > > Gandhi. > > Right on Sir, then where is the need for this > posting? > Aren't we misusing the Indology forum.Let us stop > discussions on politics and get along with usual > (Indological) discussions. > > >Since no > > body is saying, I > > believe India has remained enslaved indirectly > even > > after 1947.N.R.Joshi. > > Again no comments, since this is not the right forum > for a debate on this topic. > > Venkat > > > ===== > VENKAT KESARAJU > 49 D Reading Road > Edison, NJ - 08817 > Phone: 732-603-2726(Home) > 201-804-7231(Work), 732-768-4123 (Cell) > E-mail:kevenkat at yahoo.com,kevenkat at hotmail.com > vkesaraju at axc.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - > only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Feb 25 06:46:42 2001 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 01 06:46:42 +0000 Subject: Cakravartin RAjA Message-ID: <161227067743.23782.14462198881811661819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have enough knowledge of Sanskrit to know the difference between Cakra (wheel) and Catur(four).I was comparing two titles, one known in the ancient India(Cakravartin RAjA) and the other used (shar kibrat arbaim) by the ancient kings of the land between Tigris and Euphrates at the head of the Persian Gulf.I would like to thank Mr.Bjarte Kaldhol for correcting my confusion between kibrat and arbaim.We came to know through the subsequent postings that the word 'Cakravartin' was in use around 500 BCE in India. So all references of Cakravartin RAjA in the ancient Indian epics must either be imaginary or they could be post 1200 BCE when Elephant rider Dravidians from India first got acquainted with PIE speaking(or related dialect) horse riding Aryans.In the concept of Cakravartin monarch, a horse was sent in turn in all four (catur)directions followed by the army of the dynasty desiring to be declared Cakravartin. Other dynasties either challenge and fight or accept the sovereignty of the challenger. If they accept the sovereignty of Cakravartin, they had to send annual tribute and they were allowed to keep their kingdoms with certain other conditions.So the office of Cakravartin was a rotating office dependent on partly military might, partly diplomacy and partly network of related dynasties. Since the horse was sent in turn in all four directions, it was a kind of Caturvartin concept also.I am not saying that the ancient kings of Mesopotamia got this idea from India.My inquiry was about the learning by the ancient north and south Indians from the ancient Near East civilizations with whom they had commercial relations as far back as 4000 BCE.It appears from the present knowledge of the history of India prior to coming of Aryans that India had only faceless traders without kings and without any desire to learn from their Near East neighbors about their technology(Near East had knowledge of iron) or about their royal titles(king of four edges).Next I did not say that there was empire in the Near East around 4000 BCE. I referred to the empire of Naram-Sin(2291-2255BCE).Before him Sharru-kin(Sargon)(2371-2316 BCE) had empire. It might not be as large as the empires of the known history like Persian Empire.Sargon launched several military campaigns across Tigris towards Iran and along the Euphrates towards Syria making many kings his vassals. This was his empire. Even before Sargon, Sumerian city-states became vassals to the kings of Elam. Lugalannemundu overthrew Elamite rule and reunited Sumerian city-states and extended his influence beyond the limits of Sumer. This was another case of empire. Now these ancient cultures of Sumerians, Akkadians, Assyrians, Chaldaens, Babylonians had deities in their temples with priests attached to the temples. So there were priests, kings, merchants,peasants and slaves. The pre-Sumrian culture was Hurrian culture with temples of Goddess Kheba sitting on the lion. Its peculiar delicate geometrically painted pottery has been found at Abu Shahrein (the ancient Eridu). It was the great ancient prediluvian E.A. sanctuary, the place of Yahu-park transplanted from the East.There exist volumes of archaeological data indicating that the oldest culture at the head of the Persian Gulf came from the regions east of it-either from Iran or from India.So from the Near East the pointer is towards East.Thanks. From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 25 19:17:09 2001 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 01 14:17:09 -0500 Subject: 'Aasti' ? Message-ID: <161227067750.23782.14159602837695965157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Martin: Is there any way that you can post more of the text which you are working on? Thanks, Lynken Ghose >From: Martin Gansten >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: 'Aasti' ? >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:28:59 +0100 > >Thanks to Srini Pichumani and Noorjahan Begum for their input on the >meaning of 'aasti' in Tamil and Telugu. 'Property' and 'inheritance' do not >exactly match the sense in which the word appears to be used in my texts, >but at least they belong to the same sphere of meaning. (An example: >tatprabhumuulaat ayutadvaya-aastilaabhavaan 'on account of his master, he >earns twenty thousand aasti-s.') > >Regards, >Martin Gansten _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From ghezziem at TIN.IT Sun Feb 25 20:25:17 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 01 20:25:17 +0000 Subject: about a query of Dominik Message-ID: <161227067752.23782.7653762489583837914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I shall participate in WSC of Delhi. I am preparing a paper about the librettos of European melodramas which have drawn inspiration from Indian characters, myths, literary works, settings, panoramas, historical events and so on. I have already stored about 250 titles of operas. All the best, Daniela ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Sun Feb 25 20:41:14 2001 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 01 21:41:14 +0100 Subject: 'Aasti' ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067754.23782.12950901540206685202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there any way that you can post more of the text which you are working >on? At present it exists only in manuscript format. Excerpts will eventually (by the end of next year) be included in my doctoral thesis. Until then, if you have any particular questions, please feel free to contact me personally. Regards, Martin Gansten From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Feb 25 20:44:03 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 01 21:44:03 +0100 Subject: Syntax of action nouns Message-ID: <161227067756.23782.4380514971064484390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indology list! I am looking for bibliographic references to books/papers that deal with the syntax of nomina actionis and nomina agentis, particularly for Indo-Iranian languages, but generally for Indo-European, too. I'll be grateful to anybody who can help me! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Sun Feb 25 16:58:59 2001 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 01 22:28:59 +0530 Subject: 'Aasti' ? Message-ID: <161227067748.23782.16317161066748569681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, Aasti is of Sanskrit origin as noted in these discussions.Remember Panini's sutra Asti nasti disshtam matih(4/4/60). Aasti is used in Malayalam to denote asset as against liability for which the word is Baadhyataa. In writing accounts both Aasti and Baadhyataa are widely used in Malayalam in the meaning respectively of asset and liability. With regards Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Professor of Sanskrit & Dirctor Centre for Vedanta Studies University of Kerala ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Gansten" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 10:15 PM Subject: Re: 'Aasti' ? > Venkataraman Iyer wrote: > > >This is correct. aastika = 'possessor' (of belief in God), > >and naastika = 'non-possessor'. naasti is explaine as the > >opposite of aasti by pauranikas. > > Naasti as in naastika negates asti (a verb: '[there] is'), not aasti. Aasti > (as found in the text under discussion: the Dhruvanaa.dii) is a noun. > > Thomas Burke wrote: > > >Since Sanskrit muula can mean 'capital, principal', shouldn't one translate > >'from the capital of his master...'? > > Not, I think, in the present context. The idiom of the text is highly > stereotyped, and -muulaat is used very frequently, always in the sense of > 'by means of, on account of' -- e.g., vyaapaaramuulaat 'by means of > business', vivaahamuulaat 'on account of marriage', etc. > > Regards, > Martin Gansten > From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 26 16:33:55 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 11:33:55 -0500 Subject: Vedic tone notation, how ancient? Message-ID: <161227067758.23782.11910836294723236867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone tell me how old the use of various forms of notation to indicate the tones in Vedic chanting is, and what the evidence for this is? I need it for possible inclusion in an exhibit as an example of the beginnings of writing and musical notation. Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 26 17:51:14 2001 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 12:51:14 -0500 Subject: Vedic tone notation, how ancient? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067764.23782.16066328427365332621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For details see my old paper : On some unknown systems of marking the Vedic accents. Vishvabandhu Commemoration Volume = Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 12, 1974, 472-508 (with many misprints, comme d'habitude). Oldest MS known: Vajaseneyi Samhita of Sukla Yajurveda but accents of *older* Maitrayani Samhita style, c. 1200 CE (palaeography), from N.India, see front cover of: M. Witzel (ed.) Inside the texts, Beyond the Texts. New Approaches to the Study of the Vedas. (Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora 2). Cambridge 1997 Otherwise, 1428 CE in Nepal, for details see above paper. Nothing to be added since then. there are some wrong leads only. MW ================ >Could anyone tell me how old the use of various forms of notation to >indicate the tones in Vedic chanting is, and what the evidence for >this is? I need it for possible inclusion in an exhibit as an example >of the beginnings of writing and musical notation. > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov ==================== ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 26 19:25:35 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 14:25:35 -0500 Subject: Vedic tone notation, how ancient? Message-ID: <161227067766.23782.14896676762623331422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael, Thanks for the tips. Allen >>> Michael Witzel 02/26 12:51 PM >>> For details see my old paper : On some unknown systems of marking the Vedic accents. Vishvabandhu Commemoration Volume = Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 12, 1974, 472-508 (with many misprints, comme d'habitude). Oldest MS known: Vajaseneyi Samhita of Sukla Yajurveda but accents of *older* Maitrayani Samhita style, c. 1200 CE (palaeography), from N.India, see front cover of: M. Witzel (ed.) Inside the texts, Beyond the Texts. New Approaches to the Study of the Vedas. (Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora 2). Cambridge 1997 Otherwise, 1428 CE in Nepal, for details see above paper. Nothing to be added since then. there are some wrong leads only. MW ================ >Could anyone tell me how old the use of various forms of notation to >indicate the tones in Vedic chanting is, and what the evidence for >this is? I need it for possible inclusion in an exhibit as an example >of the beginnings of writing and musical notation. > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov ==================== ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 26 17:38:30 2001 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 17:38:30 +0000 Subject: Indological Book House: bad business practice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067760.23782.11205678399781735198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Indological Book House has sent me a strong reaction to my posting. They deny sending their publications lists to people who have not requested them, and they claim that they remove people from their mailing lists upon request. They also deplored my summary cancellation of their membership of this forum, which was carried out because they posted their advertisements to the list. IBH says it did not know that this was a breach of netiquette, and that the "rules" for INDOLOGY do not say "no advertising". (They do now, sigh!) I have written back to the company, saying that I think that a knowledge of netiquette can reasonably be expected from anyone with an internet account. I also noted that the experience of people who have written to me about recieving unsolicited IBH advertising does not match IBH's claims about good advertising practice. IBH also reminded me that they are a long-standing company dedicated to high quality publishing of indological books. I agree. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From tomoyuki.hori at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Mon Feb 26 17:44:46 2001 From: tomoyuki.hori at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Tomoyuki Hori) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 17:44:46 +0000 Subject: quiry Message-ID: <161227067762.23782.7606554044962271197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me the reference of the following work? J. Cort: Expanding the Field of Vision: Bhakti in the early Jain Tradition. It is mentioned by Olle Qvarnstrom (IIJ 41 (1998) p.48, footnote 28) as forthcoming without any details and I haven't been able to find it. Thanks in advance, Tomo -------------------- Tomoyuki Hori Wolfson College, Oxford From ghezziem at TIN.IT Mon Feb 26 21:31:16 2001 From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 21:31:16 +0000 Subject: R: Vedic tone notation, how ancient? Message-ID: <161227067768.23782.15094484527333533722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dearest Allen, You can write in my name to dr. Massimo Gentili-Tedeschi, chief librarian of the Musical Academy of Milano. He is very expert and extremely kind person. Also, he knows the most celebrated ethnomusicologist and the sites about musicological arguments. gentili at icil64.cilea.it Love, Daniela (It is strange: my next essay is about the Indian characters, plots, panoramas and stories in the Western melodrama's librettos!) ***************************************************** Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella Piazza Buzzati, 5 43100 PARMA (Italy) tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 cell. +39.0338 3198904 ghezziem at tin.it ***************************************************** ---------- >Da: Allen W Thrasher >A: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Oggetto: Vedic tone notation, how ancient? >Data: Lun, 26 feb 2001 16:33 > > Could anyone tell me how old the use of various forms of notation to > indicate the tones in Vedic chanting is, and what the evidence for > this is? I need it for possible inclusion in an exhibit as an example > of the beginnings of writing and musical notation. > > Thanks, > > Allen > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > > Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE > Southern Asia Section LJ-150 > Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 > Library of Congress U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 > Email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 27 03:16:51 2001 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 01 22:16:51 -0500 Subject: Some software tools for Indology Message-ID: <161227067772.23782.5736012885351382687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, If anyone is doing word searchs, analysis of e-texts with diacriticals, conversions from one encoding to another, or any other manipulation of e-texts you may want to look at the text editor TEXTPAD (available for windows only) as shareware ($27.00) from www.textpad.com which has the following features ( and much more) that I found very useful for this sort of thing. 1)"Regular expressions" allowed in the find command. This is a string definition metalanguage that allows you to specify almost any pattern of letters or groups of letters in the find command. 2) Characters can be specified by their character codes. This allows search strings to include letters with diacriticals and it makes it very easy to convert an e-text with diacriticals to any other encoding either with or without diacriticals. 3) "Bookmarking". You can specify bookmarking in your find commands which will then mark all lines with the string you are searching for. You can then copy the bookmarked lines to another window to print or do further work on. 4) A "sort" command with up to three different user defined sort columns. 5) A keystroke macro facility which allows you to execute a series of keystrokes on a single line save it as a macro but then execute it on each line in the file. This made it very easy to append a copy of the word containing the string I was interested in to the start of each line and then sort the results alphabetically. Also if anyone is doing any work with audio recordings they may want to look at the audio editor Cooledit 2000 for $69.00 from www.syntrillium.com. You can cut, paste, copy, position cursors on the audio file as easily as if it was a text file. You can display either raw wave or spectrogram and spectrum. I looked at a few others and it seemed the best value for money. I also found two free software packages specifically designed for phonetic analysis of speech. "speech analyzer" from SIL at www.sil.org and "SFS tools for speech research" from University College London at www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/resource/sfs/ . This is not public domain software but is available as long as the programs and documentation are not modified and the copywrite notice is not removed from them. Hope this is of use to some members. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 27 04:03:06 2001 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 01 04:03:06 +0000 Subject: Syntax of action nouns Message-ID: <161227067770.23782.17974197744390418342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >I am looking for bibliographic references to books/papers that deal with >the syntax of nomina actionis and nomina agentis, particularly for >Indo-Iranian languages, but generally for Indo-European, too. > >I'll be grateful to anybody who can help me! > >Best regards, > >Lars Martin Fosse > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Siegfried Lienhard's Tempusgebrauch und Aktionsartenbildung in der nodernen Hindi ( Stockholm Oriental Sutudies series, 1961) might be of some help. Jesualdo Correia _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 27 13:15:58 2001 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 01 07:15:58 -0600 Subject: Rigveda: A Historical Analysis - By Shrikant Talageri Message-ID: <161227067774.23782.2839711602172076747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a link to the online version of Shrikant Talageri's new book. ========================================================== The book "Rigveda: A Historical Analysis" (Delhi, 2000) by Shrikant Talageri is now available online at http://www.voi.org/books/rig/ Apparently a few minor errors of proof-reading (of the scanned text) are there which should hopefully be corrected soon. Sincerely, Vishal Agarwal _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 27 15:31:53 2001 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 01 07:31:53 -0800 Subject: about a myth In-Reply-To: <20010222082232.QBUR986.fep15-svc.tin.it@[212.216.132.3]> Message-ID: <161227067780.23782.18228276858736358372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A Tamil legend. Best wishes, SM --- Daniela Rossella wrote: > Dearest all, I have found this French opera (alias melodrama): > > Catel, Charles-Simon (1773-1830): Les Bayad?res (libr. E. V. de Jouy), > tragi-com?die in 3 acts; first perf. 1810. > > The librettist, Jouy, sustained to have drawn his inspiration from a > "pourana" (sic) in which is told that "Schirven" (Shiva, I suppose) > descended in the world as "rajah Devendren", and, at the end, married a > "bajad?re" who is disposed to be satI for him. Before to return in the > Heaven, he consecrates and blesses forever all the devadasis. I don't know > this myth. Can anyone help me? Thanks in advance, > Daniela > > > ***************************************************** > Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella > Piazza Buzzati, 5 > 43100 PARMA (Italy) > tel. & fax +39.0521.773854 > cell. +39.0338 3198904 > ghezziem at tin.it > ***************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 27 13:19:20 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 01 13:19:20 +0000 Subject: Third eye of Shiva Message-ID: <161227067776.23782.9624653886679579564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sanskritists, Need some help: Does Shiva's third eye on the forehead compared with moon? Is this common? Reading an ancient Tamil poem on Durga. Many Shiva attributes are told while describing her physical features. There is a phrase - "ta_nik ka.n vi.lagku nutal pi.rai", the meaning is "the forehead having a third eye and a forehead ornament (signifying her marriagee)". Thanks for your help, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Tue Feb 27 14:22:45 2001 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 01 15:22:45 +0100 Subject: Third eye of Shiva In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067778.23782.13171085512521206920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > >Need some help: Does Shiva's third eye on the forehead >compared with moon? Is this common? > It is common to associate Shiva's third eye with fire, and fire/sun and moon are opposites. KAma, the god of love, is, to mention an example, burnt by the fire emitted by this eye. A comparison of the eye with the moon would surprise me. It would also seem inappropriate because of the (crescent of the) moon being iconographically placed in Shiva's hair. Best regards, G.v.Simson From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 28 05:22:09 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 01 21:22:09 -0800 Subject: re. Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067788.23782.9685067255206279314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer writes: << BBC broadcasts that Buddhist statues are to be destroyed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1192000/1192195.stm Can Indologists do something? >> Our sympathies go out -- but this seems to be in the hands of political actors. And here it?s better to eschew the political. Two points: 1. BBC reports that the Taleban ?mistakenly think that Buddhists worship the Buddha and that the statues are therefore idols.? It is the BBC who is mistaken here. 2. Bearing in mind the legendary literature, one really does wonder what al-Bouddah might have done had caught his devotees fashioning images of his human form -- which he had apparently prohibited -- and worshipping those very forbidden idols. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 28 00:32:30 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 00:32:30 +0000 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067785.23782.16370423895512036706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> BBC broadcasts that Buddhist statues are to be destroyed: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1192000/1192195.stm Can Indologists do something? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 28 11:22:48 2001 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 03:22:48 -0800 Subject: re. Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067797.23782.12457839243553808643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Meeting with eminent Sri Lankan Buddhist clergy today in Singapore, the consensus view is that someone with connections to UNESCO -- ranking members of diplomatic missions, say -- should urge UNESCO to publicly announce that Buddhists worldwide are willing to take guardianship of all portable Buddhist art objects. We believed that this would spawn an immediate emergency fund raising drive, and that between the general Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Indian communities in Asia, we could come up with an attractive amount of money that could perhaps be pledged for some humanitarian projects in Afghanistan. Indian participation has strongly been suggested as the two nations have recently shown some ability to cooperate in a crisis. If anyone could help in the drafting a short plea along these lines, we could begin alerting various embassies right away. Singapore is a good for this as things are tight and tidy and English is the main language. Your off-list ideas would be appreciated. Best regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Wed Feb 28 09:59:33 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 04:59:33 -0500 Subject: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067794.23782.166056437894731812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since Dr. Fosse has decided to comment on a political issue on which I am at least as qualified as he is, I would like to point out that anyone who laments the (undeniable) folly of the Taleban authorities in seeking to destroy such a striking part of their country's history as 'the folly of religious fanatics', without commenting on 'the folly of Pentagon fanatics' who funded, armed, and trained Mujahideen thugs for their anti-Soviet crusade in such such numbers as to make the country unlivable (a circumstance without which a gang like the Taleban could not have come to power) and who then sought to isolate them and starve the people of Afghanistan, instead of taking any of the more constructive actions that Washington's undoubted degree of responsibility for the present crisis of the country would warrant (a circumstance without which the Taleban might not have taken such extreme positions) lays himself open to very justifiable charges of hypocrisy and Western ethnocentric prejudics. I recommend to anyone on the list who has not read it Jason Eliot's "An Unexpected Light: Travels in Afghanistan" (Picador 2000) which, along with an intelligent and sympathetic portrait of the country's people (rare in the current climate of hysteria and thinly veiled racism towards Afghans) also describes other less-known treasures of the country's past that have also been lost in the troubles since the 1980s. Regards, Rohan. >> Can Indologists do something? > >Probably not. I suspect that this announcement on the part of the Taliban >is an invitation to the powers that be to offer something in return for not >going through with the destruction. Possibly, the Taliban can be bought off >(economically or politically), but it probably takes more than whatever the >Indologists on this list can offer. Perhaps, we can turn to our governments >and implore them to bribe the Taliban not to go through with their plans. >We might, e.g., suggest that civilized governments of the world offer to >buy the statues that the Taliban want to destroy. > >Otherwise, all we can do, is lament the folly of religious fanatics if they >go through with this. > >Lars Martin Fosse > >Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse >Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, >0674 Oslo >Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 >Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 >Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 >Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) >Email: lmfosse at online.no > > From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Feb 28 07:25:09 2001 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 07:25:09 +0000 Subject: Plight of Buddhist art In-Reply-To: <20010228052209.29332.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227067790.23782.9865833439766067715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Venkatraman Iyer writes: > ><< BBC broadcasts that Buddhist statues are to be destroyed: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1192000/1192195.stm >Can Indologists do something? >> I feel so helpless about this. I believe that previously, eminent archaeologists etc have been able to use contacts with the less extreme factions in Afghanistan to protect the country's most important works of art. But this doesn't seem to be working any more. I'm left with this feeling that if--just supposing--an extreme faction had taken over in France, and was intent on destroying the contents of the Louvre, the world would have found some way of stopping them! It is Ven. Tantra who is mistaken here. And I don't find his posting helpful. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK > Ven. Tantra writes: >Our sympathies go out -- but this seems to be in the hands of political >actors. And here it?s better to eschew the political. > >Two points: > >1. BBC reports that the Taleban ?mistakenly think that Buddhists worship >the Buddha and that the statues are therefore idols.? It is the BBC who is >mistaken here. > >2. Bearing in mind the legendary literature, one really does wonder what >al-Bouddah might have done had caught his devotees fashioning images of >his human form -- which he had apparently prohibited -- and worshipping >those very forbidden idols. > >VT From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 28 09:07:17 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 10:07:17 +0100 Subject: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067792.23782.17500623555850518205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer [SMTP:venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 28. februar 2001 01:33: > BBC broadcasts that Buddhist statues are to be destroyed: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1192000/1192195 .stm > > Can Indologists do something? Probably not. I suspect that this announcement on the part of the Taliban is an invitation to the powers that be to offer something in return for not going through with the destruction. Possibly, the Taliban can be bought off (economically or politically), but it probably takes more than whatever the Indologists on this list can offer. Perhaps, we can turn to our governments and implore them to bribe the Taliban not to go through with their plans. We might, e.g., suggest that civilized governments of the world offer to buy the statues that the Taliban want to destroy. Otherwise, all we can do, is lament the folly of religious fanatics if they go through with this. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Feb 28 09:26:45 2001 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 10:26:45 +0100 Subject: eyes In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227067801.23782.14291178309263851182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends; Does anyone know of the Indian name for a woman's eyes where the white (cornea) is visible under the pupil. Do such eyes have spiritual significance? John Grimes MSU From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 28 11:56:50 2001 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 11:56:50 +0000 Subject: Third eye of Shiva Message-ID: <161227067799.23782.18361824843528056178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Need some help: Does Shiva's third eye on the forehead >>compared with moon? Is this common? Prof. G. von Simson: >It is common to associate Shiva's third eye with fire, and fire/sun and >moon are opposites. KAma, the god of love, >is, to mention an example, burnt by the fire emitted by this eye. A >comparison of the eye with the moon would surprise me. It would also seem >inappropriate because of >the (crescent of the) moon being iconographically placed in Shiva's hair. Thanks for the reply. I was testing to see if ever Shiva's eye is called moon. Tamil texts also agree that viruupaakshan's special eye is like fire (kan2al vizi kAyvatum kAman2aiyE). The poem on Durga mentions two crescent moons: one, an ornament on the forehead and the other as in Shiva's head. With respects, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Feb 28 10:57:59 2001 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 11:57:59 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067795.23782.1554150295593408014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU [SMTP:rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU] skrev 28. februar 2001 11:00: > Since Dr. Fosse has decided to comment on a political issue on which I > am at least as qualified as he is, I would like to point out that > anyone who laments the (undeniable) folly of the Taleban authorities > in seeking to destroy such a striking part of their country's history > as 'the folly of religious fanatics', without commenting on 'the folly > of Pentagon fanatics' who funded, armed, and trained Mujahideen thugs > for their anti-Soviet crusade in such such numbers as to make the > country unlivable (a circumstance without which a gang like the > Taleban could not have come to power) and who then sought to isolate > them and starve the people of Afghanistan, instead of taking any of > the more constructive actions that Washington's undoubted degree of > responsibility for the present crisis of the country would warrant (a > circumstance without which the Taleban might not have taken such > extreme positions) lays himself open to very justifiable charges of > hypocrisy and Western ethnocentric prejudics. Oh, my goodness!!! Since I, too, believe I have read a few pages on Afghanistan, let me point out a number of points: First of all, the Afghans started their fight against the Soviet intrusion quite early in the game. The fight against the Soviets was not "invented" by the West, although it certainly was exploited by the U.S. The Afghans were cast in the role as "monster killers", they were supposed to do to the Russians what the Vietnamese, helped by the Russians, had done to the Americans in Vietnam (and they largely succeeded). However, the basic fact is this: The Soviets tried to impose a communist regime on a population that resented this attempt. In the face of armed opposition, the Soviets consciously chose to destroy the country, including the vulnerable water systems, kill several million Afghan civilians and chase other millions away. The terrible situation that Afghanistan has today is partly the result of Soviet policies, the self-destructive behaviour of Afghan leaders and the callousness of the U.S. and other Western countries, which dumped an enormous amount of arms in Afghanistan during the war, but pulled out and ceased to show any interest as soon as the Soviet Union had been driven out. As for responsibility, it has to be distributed. The Afghans cannot be blamed for trying to liberate their country. However, they can be blamed for in-fighting, tribalism, and religious fanaticism which are not conducive to restoring the country. The Soviets must take the main responsibility for destroying Afghan society and its vulnerable economy. The West must take responsibility for not helping (enough) after the war was over. Let me remind you, by the way, that the Taliban are relative latecomers. The Afghans that received American help (through Pakistan, which manipulated the situation according to its own needs) in the eighties were not quite so extreme as the Taliban. Are you suggesting that the West should have allowed the Soviets to occupy Afghanistan unopposed, by the way? I am not entirely convinced that India's generals would have been comfortable with the Soviets firmly established in Afghanistan. That would put them uncomfortably close to India, and if I remember my Kautilya, there should be at least one country between yourself and your ally. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 28 17:49:26 2001 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 12:49:26 -0500 Subject: Islam and Idols (Re: Plight of Buddhist art) Message-ID: <161227067807.23782.14454086728477609855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just a question. Is destruction of idols against Islam? Or is it an essential part? Many of the world's art treasures are now in Islamic countries. There will be more when more regions turn Islamic. Are there any Muslim theologians opposed to destroying idols? Rustam ... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Feb 28 18:12:38 2001 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 13:12:38 -0500 Subject: Islam and Idols (Re: Plight of Buddhist art) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067809.23782.13211061918487425738.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Even people who are not very versed in Islamic doctrines may be aware that the Taliban's position may be argued to be perfectly consistent with some of the passages and teachings of the Holy Qu'ran. 2. However, the behavior of someone who is destructive should be distinguished from excusing or applauding the act, which, I am sure is not what some scholars are doing in this context. But it needs to pointed out that what many people are vehemently reacting to is not the faith that inspires the action of the Taliban, but the action's appropriateness in the age in which we live. 3. It is not impossible for religious fanatics of any tradition to engage in disgustingly outrageous behavior, quoting from their scriptures to justify their actions, and (in many instances) they would be perfectly on target too, because (God knows) many scriptures and canonical texts have elements which, irrespective of their appropriateness in times past, are intolerable, unacceptable, and worthy of condemnation by all decent and enlightened people today, irrespective of their religious affiliation. 4. Most dispassionate students of culture and religion will grant that Islam has made great contributions to art and architecture, to scholarship and literature and more, and that it also preaches a great many decent human values. But none of this can justify or condone what this particular group is doing today in many contexts. 5. Every human institution, of no matter what antiquity, inherent merit, or positive attributes, needs to change and evolve, or else it stagnates and rots, and in this interwoven world, its stench can affect other human beings too. Positive transformations within a religious system can occur only when it is fortunate to produce bold visionaries, enlightened religious leaders and thoughtful scholars. This is happening in a number of contexts all over the world. One would hope that thinkers and scholars, both Muslim and others, who wish well for this great and rich tradition, would persuade the mullahs and others in power that hurtful and destructive behavior in the name of their religion heaps more ignominy than glory on it. V. V. Raman From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Wed Feb 28 00:15:18 2001 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 13:15:18 +1300 Subject: Babel release 3.7 Message-ID: <161227067782.23782.3533950272114171665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, Harry Spier has just mentioned some useful programmes. While we are on the subject it may be timely for me to do the same. 8-) This was posted to comp.text.tex yesterday. For those of you typesetting translit. Skt., Tamil, and Devanagari et ceatera the proposed development of Babel may be of interest. Many regards, Richard Mahoney *************************************************************** CTAN:/tex-archive/macros/latex/packags/babel has now Babel release 3.7 >From the announcement file: What's new in release 3.7? Actually babel 3.7 is very much like the later releases of babel 3.6 (from 3.6k onwards). The concept of language attributes is new in this release. And support for a number of languages has been added. Here is a list of the changes since babel 3.6j: - Shorthands are expandable again. The disadvantage is that one has to type '{}a when the acute accent is used as a shorthand character. The advantage is that a number of other problems (such as the breaking of ligatures, etc.) have vanished. - Two new commands, \shorthandon and \shorthandoff have been introduced to enable to temporarliy witch off one or more shorthands. - Support for typesetting Sanskrit in transliteration will be made available in a later release of babel 3.7. - Support for typesetting Kannada, Devnagari and Tamil will be made available in a later release of babel 3.7. - Support for typesetting Greek has been enhaced. Code from the kdgreek package (suggested by the author) was added and \greeknumeral has been added. - A language attribute has been added to the \mark... commands in order to make sure that a greek header line comes out right on the last page before a language switch. - Support for typesetting Basque is now available thanks to Juan Aguirregabiria. - Support for typesetting Serbian with latin script is now available thanks to Dejan Muhamedagi'c and Jankovic Slobodan. - Support for typesetting Hebrew (and potential support for typesetting other rigth-to-left written languages) is now available thanks to Rama Porrat and Boris Lavva. - Hyphenation pattern files are now read inside a group; therefore any changes a pattern file needs to make to lowercase codes, uppercase codes and category codes are kept local to that group. If they are needed for the language, these changes will need to repeated and stored in \extras... - Support for typesetting Latin is now available, thanks to Krzysztof Konrad .Zelechowski. - The concept of language attributes is introduced. It is intended to be used for giving the user some control over the use of the features a language definition file provides. It's first uses are for the Greek language, where the user can select to use the \pi o\lambda\upsilon\tau o\nu\kappa\acute{o} (``Polutoniko'' or multiaccented) Greek way of typesetting texts, and for the Latin language where both modern and medieval Latin are supported. These attributes wil possibly find wider use in future releases. Reinhard Zierke for the CTAN team *************************************************************** -- ------------------------ Richard Mahoney ------------------------- 78 Jeffreys Rd +64-3-351-5831 Christchurch New Zealand --------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ---------------- From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Wed Feb 28 18:18:33 2001 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya Mishra) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 13:18:33 -0500 Subject: Islam and Idols (Re: Plight of Buddhist art) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227067811.23782.3193330882618311589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rustam Masalewala has written as follows: >Is destruction of idols against Islam? Or is it an essential part? Do you consider a mosque as idol too or not? What about the black stone in Kaaba? I understand it was used an idol even before Mohammad's time. >Many of the world's art treasures are now in Islamic >countries. There will be more when more regions turn >Islamic. Is this your prophecy or desire? --- Yours sincerely, Aditya Mishra Please note my new Primary email: aditya at cheerful.com Primary homepage: http://www.pompano.net/~aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: When I am sad, I sing, and then the world is sad with me. ... Anon. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 28 19:04:13 2001 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 14:04:13 -0500 Subject: Vidyasanka Message-ID: <161227067815.23782.16473965386921630340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan said: <> Come again? Could you explain? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Feb 28 16:09:39 2001 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 16:09:39 +0000 Subject: re. Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067805.23782.11930727321260489071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Going over the past and blaming different countries is no help. It is quite possible that the Taliban regime , isolated diplomatically and economically, wants to draw the attention of the world by this move. Just because they want to draw attention does not mean they won't carry out their stated aim. It is possible a UN inspired trust , with sufficient monetary incentives can lure Taleban to leave the archeological artifacts alone. On the other hand, Taleban may be angry at the UN imposing sanctions on them recently. But massive monetary and food handouts by diferent countries may help save the artifacts From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed Feb 28 15:47:20 2001 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 16:47:20 +0100 Subject: book: thanks Message-ID: <161227067803.23782.13812482287507229582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I should like to thank the 21 colleagues (including the author himself) who have responded to my query on Akira YUYAMA's book on Burnouf. Some of them has even offered to send me copy of the book or its photocopies. My sincere thanks, eg -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Dept. of Philosophical and Linguistic Sciences University of Perugia Piazza Morlacchi, 11 -06123 Perugia, Italy Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Tantric Studies Journ. of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org ********************************************************* From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 28 18:27:55 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 18:27:55 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Plight of Buddhist art Message-ID: <161227067813.23782.49524667331863152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> if I >remember my Kautilya, there should be at least one country between yourself >and your ally. If the Soviets had succeeded in Afghanistan, there would have been one country in between - Pakistan. The line of actual control in Kashmir ensures that Afghanistan and India do not really share a border. Gilgit is effectively with Pakistan. In a very real sense, the Taleban is a creation of Western policies towards the region. However, I think contemporary Indian political commentators look up to Goldsmith's Vicar of Wakefield as their ideal, rather than some old crooked Indian from two millennia ago. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 28 19:18:43 2001 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 01 19:18:43 +0000 Subject: Vidyasanka Message-ID: <161227067817.23782.1358924526768261260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ><>Goldsmith's Vicar of Wakefield as their ideal, rather than some old >crooked Indian from two millennia ago.>> > >Come again? Could you explain? Allen Thrasher A little tongue-in-cheek comment, but I actually meant to refer to the village schoolmaster, not to the good vicar. ... 'Twas certain he could write, and cipher too; Lands he could measure, terms and tides presage, And e'en the story ran--that he could gauge: In arguing too, the parson own?d his skill, For e?en though vanquish?d he could argue still; While words of learned length and thund'ring sound Amaz?d the gazing rustics rang?d around; ... Best, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.