From mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Aug  1 19:21:33 2001
From: mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Sara McClintock)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 01 14:21:33 -0500
Subject: query: jodi.mga
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0107301210340.4778-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac. uk>
Message-ID: <161227069505.23782.15432292932964055463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

I have a query concerning a Sanskrit term from the Tattvasa.mgrahapa~njikaa of
Kamala'siila (8th century Buddhist 'saastric work). The term is jodi.mga, a
word which does not appear in the Sanskrit-English dictionaries available to me
here. The Tibetan translation has ro sreg mkhan, which would seem to indicate a
person whose job is burning corpses. The term occurs twice, both in the same
context but differing slightly with regard to syntactical relations to other
words in the sentence.

The context in which the phrase appears is one in which the author is trying to
establish that mental qualities such as compassion and so on are capable of an
extraordinary degree of perfection (praka.r.saparyanta). An example is then
given:

First instance (TSP ad TS 3409-3412): yathaa 'srotriyajodi.mganairgh.r.nyam
Second instance (TSP ad TS 3437-3412): 'srotriyasya jodi.mganairgh.r.nyavat

In both instances, the Tibetan indicates a dvandva relation between the terms
'srotriya and jodi.mga. I am especially confused by the genitive 'srotriyasya
in the second instance, and I am at a loss as to how to account for it.

My tentative translation of the first instance is: "like the cruelty of
brahmins and jodi.mgas." The idea is that just as compassion can be cultivated
to an extraordinary degree, so too can cruelty. Remember, this is a Buddhist
text which at points is quite critical of Brahmanic religion (especially animal
sacrifice), so the idea that brahmins are cruel fits the overall tenor of the
work.

One possibility that comes to mind is that the 'srotriyajodi.mga is a
particular kind of brahmin. Or perhaps jodi.mga is an alterative for jo.ti.mga,
which Monier-Williams identities as an ascetic who subjects himself to severe
penances. Or perhaps I am overlooking something relatively obvious. In any
case, I would appreciate any insight or ideas that Indology list subscribers
might have.

Thank you very much in advance.
Sara McClintock




From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK  Wed Aug  1 12:30:49 2001
From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 01 14:30:49 +0200
Subject: Fwd:  Steelmaking, Gupta Dynasty, West Bengal
Message-ID: <161227069502.23782.2411386820268265744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Below is a query from a colleague of mine (an expert in ancient
Chinese metallurgy).  Any assistance would be appreciated.  You can
contact him directly at the email address(es) in his signature file,
or send them to me and I will forward them to him.

Many thanks,

Christian


>"Donald B. Wagner" <DWag at a...> wrote:
>
>Dear friends,
>
>I wonder if anyone can help me find an article for which I only have
>an incorrect or incomplete reference:
>
>Lohuizen-de Leeuw, J. E. Van
>Recent discoveries of the historical period in India, South Asian
>Archaeology, New Jersey 1973.
>
>An article by Olga A. Papachristou and Leonid M. Schwertschkow in Der
>Anschnitt (a German journal on mining history), 1993, 45.4: 122-131
>has this reference in its bibliography.
>
>Endnote 20 on p. 130 of the Anschnitt article refers to pp. 257 f of
>the Lohuizen article for a discovery in 1967 of 15 steelmaking
>furnaces in West Bengal dated to the Gupta Dynasty.
>
>This is important to me, but I can't find the article. It is not in
>the book 'South Asian Archaeology 1973', edited by Van Lohuizen,
>which doesn't even have a page 257.
>
>Can anyone help?
>
>Regards,
>Don Wagner
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------
>dr.phil. Donald B. Wagner
>Senior Research Fellow
>Nordic Institute of Asian Studies
>Leifsgade 33
>DK-2300 Copenhagen S
>Denmark
>tel. +45-3254 8844 or direct +45-3254 1524-208
>fax +45-3296 2530
>http://staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner
>
>Note change of e-mail address: <dbwagner at g...>
>If that doesn't work try: <DWag at a...>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------
>--- End forwarded message ---




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Aug  1 20:17:50 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 01 16:17:50 -0400
Subject: query: jodi.mga
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010801140143.0099b100@Pop3.norton.antivirus>
Message-ID: <161227069507.23782.7527586584454729527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I see the word jo.dia listed in the sense of a hunter in the Jain Prakrit
dictionary AbhidhAnarAjendra (vol. 4, p. 1651).  The other possibly related
word may be jho.ti.mga attested from old to modern Marathi in the sense of
a goblin or a kind of ghost.  This may be related to the Marathi verb
jho.da.ne "to beat, to batter, to whack" and the related word jho.dii in
the sense of a beating, see A Dictionary of Old Marathi, S.G. Tulpule and
Anne Feldhaus, p. 272.  The word jodi.mga may be possibly related to such
Prakrit sources.  I would check other Prakrit sources.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande

--On Wednesday, August 01, 2001, 2:21 PM -0500 Sara McClintock
<mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I have a query concerning a Sanskrit term from the
> Tattvasa.mgrahapa~njikaa of Kamala'siila (8th century Buddhist 'saastric
> work). The term is jodi.mga, a word which does not appear in the
> Sanskrit-English dictionaries available to me here. The Tibetan
> translation has ro sreg mkhan, which would seem to indicate a person
> whose job is burning corpses. The term occurs twice, both in the same
> context but differing slightly with regard to syntactical relations to
> other words in the sentence.
>
> The context in which the phrase appears is one in which the author is
> trying to establish that mental qualities such as compassion and so on
> are capable of an extraordinary degree of perfection
> (praka.r.saparyanta). An example is then given:
>
> First instance (TSP ad TS 3409-3412): yathaa
> 'srotriyajodi.mganairgh.r.nyam Second instance (TSP ad TS 3437-3412):
> 'srotriyasya jodi.mganairgh.r.nyavat
>
> In both instances, the Tibetan indicates a dvandva relation between the
> terms 'srotriya and jodi.mga. I am especially confused by the genitive
> 'srotriyasya in the second instance, and I am at a loss as to how to
> account for it.
>
> My tentative translation of the first instance is: "like the cruelty of
> brahmins and jodi.mgas." The idea is that just as compassion can be
> cultivated to an extraordinary degree, so too can cruelty. Remember, this
> is a Buddhist text which at points is quite critical of Brahmanic
> religion (especially animal sacrifice), so the idea that brahmins are
> cruel fits the overall tenor of the work.
>
> One possibility that comes to mind is that the 'srotriyajodi.mga is a
> particular kind of brahmin. Or perhaps jodi.mga is an alterative for
> jo.ti.mga, which Monier-Williams identities as an ascetic who subjects
> himself to severe penances. Or perhaps I am overlooking something
> relatively obvious. In any case, I would appreciate any insight or ideas
> that Indology list subscribers might have.
>
> Thank you very much in advance.
> Sara McClintock



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From mdelhey at YAHOO.COM  Wed Aug  1 21:49:20 2001
From: mdelhey at YAHOO.COM (Martin Delhey)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 01 23:49:20 +0200
Subject: query: jodi.mga
Message-ID: <161227069509.23782.4473794301793956964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In  the Abhisamayaala.mkaaraalokaa the compound
'srotriyajotinganairgh.r.nyavat seems to occur (Wogihara's edition 145: 17).
I have found this reference in Keira's and Ueda's Sanskrit Word-Index (Tokyo
1998) to this work. I don't have the edition at hand. Therefore I can't say
anything about the context.

Best regards,
Martin Delhey
University of Hamburg



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Aug  2 12:51:17 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 01 08:51:17 -0400
Subject: query: jodi.mga
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001080211160573@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069513.23782.11713042052262469895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Maanak Hindii Koza of Ramchandra Varma, vol. 2, cites both jo.ti.mga
"shiva" and jho.ti.mga "one who has long hair".  Combined with the
occurrence of jho.ti.mga in Marathi, these words seem to be widely used in
Indo-Aryan vernaculars. These words seem to be related to jodi.mga/joti.mga
and its variant kaapaalika.  The Kaapaalikas were indeed feared and had a
ghost-like appearance in the eyes of the common people.

Madhav Deshpande

--On Thursday, August 02, 2001, 11:16 AM +0100 Harunaga Isaacson
<Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE> wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:49:20 +0200, Martin Delhey <mdelhey at YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
>
>> In  the Abhisamayaala.mkaaraalokaa the compound
>> 'srotriyajotinganairgh.r.nyavat seems to occur (Wogihara's edition 145:
> 17).
>> I have found this reference in Keira's and Ueda's Sanskrit Word-Index
> (Tokyo
>> 1998) to this work. I don't have the edition at hand. Therefore I can't
>> say anything about the context.
>
> This d.r.s.taanta seems to occur in a number of works related
> to/influenced by the so-called 'Buddhist pramaa.na school'. No doubt
> specialists will be able to provide several references. Note that in the
> presumable source for the example (Dharmakiirti's svav.rtti, Gnoli's
> edition p. 111 l. 1) we find "srotriyakaapaalikagh.r.naavat. For those
> later authors who substitute the word jo.ti"nga (joti"nga and jodi.mga
> seem indeed to be errors or variant orthographies for this) this word
> appears to have been synonymous with kaapaalika.
>
> I have noticed that in the case of the Tantric Buddhist Tattvasiddhi
> (still unpublished---I have read a draft of an edition of a part of the
> text prepared by Prof. Steinkellner and soon to appear, I believe, in the
> Festschrift for Raniero Gnoli), the Tibetan translation of that work
> (Otani 4531) renders the jo.ti"nga of the Sanskrit (a slightly different
> wording of the same d.r.s.taanta: yathaa "srotriyajo.ti"ngaadau gh.r.naa)
> with brtul zhugs chen po (Peking f. 41v5) as if translating Sanskrit
> mahaavrata/mahaavratin.
>
> The word thus appears to denote a "Saiva kaapaalika ascetic. I have a
> recollection, however, that in a conversation some years ago with Prof.
> Sanderson, no doubt the most widely read scholar of "Saivism, he told me
> that the word does not occur in texts of the "Saivas themselves. It may
> well, therefore, have had negative connotations (cf. the material from
> Prakrit and Marathi languages adduced by Madhav Deshpande).
>
> Harunaga Isaacson



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Thu Aug  2 10:16:05 2001
From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson)
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 01 11:16:05 +0100
Subject: query: jodi.mga
Message-ID: <161227069511.23782.15025019924239386222.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:49:20 +0200, Martin Delhey <mdelhey at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>In  the Abhisamayaala.mkaaraalokaa the compound
>'srotriyajotinganairgh.r.nyavat seems to occur (Wogihara's edition 145:
17).
>I have found this reference in Keira's and Ueda's Sanskrit Word-Index
(Tokyo
>1998) to this work. I don't have the edition at hand. Therefore I can't say
>anything about the context.

This d.r.s.taanta seems to occur in a number of works related to/influenced
by the so-called 'Buddhist pramaa.na school'. No doubt specialists will be
able to provide several references. Note that in the presumable source for
the example (Dharmakiirti's svav.rtti, Gnoli's edition p. 111 l. 1) we
find "srotriyakaapaalikagh.r.naavat. For those later authors who substitute
the word jo.ti"nga (joti"nga and jodi.mga seem indeed to be errors or
variant orthographies for this) this word appears to have been synonymous
with kaapaalika.

I have noticed that in the case of the Tantric Buddhist Tattvasiddhi (still
unpublished---I have read a draft of an edition of a part of the text
prepared by Prof. Steinkellner and soon to appear, I believe, in the
Festschrift for Raniero Gnoli), the Tibetan translation of that work (Otani
4531) renders the jo.ti"nga of the Sanskrit (a slightly different wording
of the same d.r.s.taanta: yathaa "srotriyajo.ti"ngaadau gh.r.naa) with
brtul zhugs chen po (Peking f. 41v5) as if translating Sanskrit
mahaavrata/mahaavratin.

The word thus appears to denote a "Saiva kaapaalika ascetic. I have a
recollection, however, that in a conversation some years ago with Prof.
Sanderson, no doubt the most widely read scholar of "Saivism, he told me
that the word does not occur in texts of the "Saivas themselves. It may
well, therefore, have had negative connotations (cf. the material from
Prakrit and Marathi languages adduced by Madhav Deshpande).

Harunaga Isaacson




From jkirk at MICRON.NET  Fri Aug  3 17:41:24 2001
From: jkirk at MICRON.NET (jkirk)
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 01 11:41:24 -0600
Subject: ISO FDIS 15919 approved (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069517.23782.14778535173122943744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Will this be published in hard copy or on the internet? J Kirkpatrick
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------


> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 14:32:29 +0100
> From: Dr Anthony P Stone <stone_catend at compuserve.com>
> Subject: ISO FDIS 15919 approved
>
> Dear Colleagues on the Conv-dev mailing list
>
> You will be pleased to hear that ISO FDIS 15919 "Transliteration of
> Devanagari and related Indic scripts into Latin Characters" has been
> approved at its final vote.   We now await the publication of this
> International Standard as ISO 15919.
>
> I heartily thank all those who have made this result possible by their
> participation in the technical discussions.   Without this mailing list
> it would not have been possible to reach a consensus within the allotted
> time, and it has been a pleasure to work with the members.
>
> Many thanks,  Tony Stone
>
> Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader for ISO 15919 (Transliteration of
> Indic scripts) under ISO/TC46/SC2/WG14.
> 20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK.
> Tel/Fax: +44 (0) 1582 626647  [Fax requires prior voice call]
> Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com
>    Thinking aloud on transliteration:
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm
>




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Aug  3 14:18:57 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 01 15:18:57 +0100
Subject: ISO FDIS 15919 approved (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069515.23782.8667697054442068082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 14:32:29 +0100
From: Dr Anthony P Stone <stone_catend at compuserve.com>
Subject: ISO FDIS 15919 approved

Dear Colleagues on the Conv-dev mailing list

You will be pleased to hear that ISO FDIS 15919 "Transliteration of
Devanagari and related Indic scripts into Latin Characters" has been
approved at its final vote.   We now await the publication of this
International Standard as ISO 15919.

I heartily thank all those who have made this result possible by their
participation in the technical discussions.   Without this mailing list
it would not have been possible to reach a consensus within the allotted
time, and it has been a pleasure to work with the members.

Many thanks,  Tony Stone

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader for ISO 15919 (Transliteration of
Indic scripts) under ISO/TC46/SC2/WG14.
20 Harding Close, Redbourn, St Albans, Herts, AL3 7NT, UK.
Tel/Fax: +44 (0) 1582 626647  [Fax requires prior voice call]
Email: stone_catend at compuserve.com
   Thinking aloud on transliteration:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Aug  3 22:24:45 2001
From: mcclint at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Sara McClintock)
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 01 17:24:45 -0500
Subject: query: jodi.mga
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001080211160573@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069519.23782.5648236406737501909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you Madhav Deshpande, Martin Delhey and Harunaga Isaacson for your
helpful and interesting responses to my query.

Sara McClintock




From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK  Sat Aug  4 08:34:37 2001
From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer)
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 01 10:34:37 +0200
Subject: Studia Indoloczne (?)
In-Reply-To: <200107302259.AAA03655@gitte.hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <161227069521.23782.10915910542561763885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends,

I am trying to track down an article reported to be published in a
journal (?) called "Studia Indoloczne."  The Danish Royal Library
cannot seem to find the journal, and I have not found it in either
COPAC, the Library of Congress, or MELVYL.

The article is by Jens Braarvig, "Bhavya on Mantras: Apologetic
Endeavours on Behalf of the Mahayana," and it is said to have
appeared in the journal _Studia Indoloczne_ 4 (1997), 31-39.  The
referring article is Ron Davidson's "Masquerading as PramaNa," in
_Dharmakirti's Thought and its Impact on Indian and Tibetan
Philosophy_ (Wien, 1999), fn. 18, p. 29.

Has anyone heard of "Studia Indoloczne" and/or know where I might be
able to track down a copy?

Thanks in advance,

Chr. Wedemeyer
K?benhavns Universitet




From torella at UNIROMA1.IT  Sat Aug  4 15:36:20 2001
From: torella at UNIROMA1.IT (raffaele torella)
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 01 17:36:20 +0200
Subject: Studia Indoloczne (?)
In-Reply-To: <f0433010ab7916347b677@[130.225.200.65]>
Message-ID: <161227069524.23782.16776415654061189924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Friends,
>
>I am trying to track down an article reported to be published in a
>journal (?) called "Studia Indoloczne."  The Danish Royal Library
>cannot seem to find the journal, and I have not found it in either
>COPAC, the Library of Congress, or MELVYL.
>
>The article is by Jens Braarvig, "Bhavya on Mantras: Apologetic
>Endeavours on Behalf of the Mahayana," and it is said to have
>appeared in the journal _Studia Indoloczne_ 4 (1997), 31-39.  The
>referring article is Ron Davidson's "Masquerading as PramaNa," in
>_Dharmakirti's Thought and its Impact on Indian and Tibetan
>Philosophy_ (Wien, 1999), fn. 18, p. 29.
>
>Has anyone heard of "Studia Indoloczne" and/or know where I might be
>able to track down a copy?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Chr. Wedemeyer
>K?benhavns Universitet

If, as it seems likely, the journal you are looking for is "Studia
indologiczne", you may contact its Co-Editor, Dr. Piotr Balcerowicz
(Warsaw University): piotr at orient.uw.edu.pl.

Regards,
Raffaele Torella
--



Raffaele Torella,
Dipartimento di Studi Orientali
Universita' di Roma "La Sapienza"
(fax:+39- 06-4451209)




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Sat Aug  4 22:44:44 2001
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 01 18:44:44 -0400
Subject: Studia Indoloczne (?)
In-Reply-To: <Your message of Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:34:37 +0200>
Message-ID: <161227069526.23782.1714776972595917928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm forwarding this bibliographic query to the listserv of CONSALD
(Committee on South Asian Libraries and Documentation -- which
consists of a few dozen of my colleagues who are South Asia
Librarians). I also tried searching a number of sources and could not
locate anything resembling this citation... I will be very interested
to see if someone can hunt it down, as no libraries in the appear to
have this journal (if this is, indeed, its name).

David Magier
South Asia Librarian,
Columbia University

> Dear Friends,
>
> I am trying to track down an article reported to be published in a
> journal (?) called "Studia Indoloczne."  The Danish Royal Library
> cannot seem to find the journal, and I have not found it in either
> COPAC, the Library of Congress, or MELVYL.
>
> The article is by Jens Braarvig, "Bhavya on Mantras: Apologetic
> Endeavours on Behalf of the Mahayana," and it is said to have
> appeared in the journal _Studia Indoloczne_ 4 (1997), 31-39.  The
> referring article is Ron Davidson's "Masquerading as PramaNa," in
> _Dharmakirti's Thought and its Impact on Indian and Tibetan
> Philosophy_ (Wien, 1999), fn. 18, p. 29.
>
> Has anyone heard of "Studia Indoloczne" and/or know where I might be
> able to track down a copy?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chr. Wedemeyer
> Kbenhavns Universitet
>




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Aug  5 10:00:19 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 01 11:00:19 +0100
Subject: ISO FDIS 15919 approved (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069530.23782.8201282137037469767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just a note for those who may not quite get what this is about. In 1898
the World Congress of Orientalists agreed on a transliteration for
Sanskrit.  The new standard, largely worked out by Tony Stone, is the
first public, official standard to recognise Indic transliteration.  As a
public BSI / ISO standard there is *some* chance now that fonts and other
facilities for doing romanized Sanskrit on computers may get support from
manufacturers, something that was plain impossible as long as romanized
Indic wasn't registerd as a public standard.

There are other benefits too, which I won't go into here.

Dominik

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 19:47:12 +0100
From: Dr Anthony P Stone <stone_catend at compuserve.com>
To: Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: ISO FDIS 15919 approved (fwd)

Dear Dominik

Many thanks for your other, congratulatory message.
[...]

Anyway, the answer, which I will send to J Kirkpatrick separately, is that
it will be published as hard copy, available from National Standards
Bodies.  I am not in the picture with regard to any possible electronic
publication by ISO or any National Standards Body.

ISO is particular about copyright.  But I hope it will be possible for me
to put some pages on the Web about 'How to use ISO 15919'.

Regards,  Tony

Dr Anthony P. Stone, Project Leader for ISO 15919 (Transliteration of
Indic scripts) under ISO/TC46/SC2/WG14.
   Thinking aloud on transliteration:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/translit.htm




From nowmonika at POCZTA.ONET.PL  Sun Aug  5 09:16:45 2001
From: nowmonika at POCZTA.ONET.PL (Monika Nowakowska)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 01 11:16:45 +0200
Subject: Studia Indoloczne (?)
Message-ID: <161227069528.23782.2460126726989249324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've already sent the details to Christian K. Wedemeyer but here it is
again for all the interested:
"Studia Indologiczne", published by Oriental
Institute, Warsaw University, since 1994.
Studia Indologiczne 4 (1997) contain the Proceedings of the
International Seminar on Buddhist Studies, Liw 25 June 1994; ed. by
Agata Bareja-Starzynska and Marek Mejor.
Several copies of the journal have been sent all over the world and
should be
available in some libraries.
With regards,
Monika Nowakowska
Warszawa



--

Jest niezly ... i liscik napisze
OnetKomunikator [ http://ok.onet.pl/instaluj.html ]





From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK  Mon Aug  6 08:42:30 2001
From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 01 10:42:30 +0200
Subject: Studia Indoloczne (?)
Message-ID: <161227069532.23782.2572076576414007899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to Monika Nowakowska, David Magier, and raffaele torella (did
I forget anyone?) for their help with "Studia IndoloGIczne."  I was
apparently the victim of a typo, but am back on track now "with a
little help from my friends. . ."

Thanks again,

Christian Wedemeyer




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Mon Aug  6 20:20:11 2001
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 01 16:20:11 -0400
Subject: "BMAC writing"
In-Reply-To: <2001Aug6.232639@YV1041.spb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069537.23782.8940251070209814642.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The second article by J.W.Wilford contains some wild
>phantasies, like suggestions of "a possible Chinese connection" (that
>is, imaginary links between the Anau script and Chinese writing dated
>by at least 2000 years later!).


I must note that this in not so wild a fantasy,   The Shang dynasty
definitely had writing in the second millenium bce and  Ho Ping-ti in
his Cradle of the East, points out that there are markers scratched
on the bases of Yang Shao pottery that easily date to mid fifth
millenium. I am certainly no expert in these fields, but it appears
that the Chinese had a notation system of some sort long before the
"seal" came into existence.  Victor Maier,  who was cited by Wilford,
certainly is however, and deserves a fair hearing.

I must also note that the cutting of the marks on the seal are so
unlike Harappan seals, that it simply cannot be of that area.
Perhaps a "blank" was traded cut with someone elses marks?

In my opinion, we shoud all wait u;ntil the corpus is a bit bigger than "one"

John





>But there are, at the same time, more
>sober remarks."In a story going around the Penn campus, when Dr.
>Hiebert showed the inscribed object to Dr. Robert Dyson, retired
>director of the University Museum of Archaeology, Dr. Dyson said: "
>Good job, Fred. Now go out and find a hundred more like it".
>         Surely we have to agree with Prof. Parpola: "We must wait for
>some more excavation at Anau, perhaps other similar seals
>will emerge". And perhaps not.
>                                                                 Ya.V.
>
>Wed, 01 Aug 101 00:46 +0300 MSK Kengo Harimoto wrote to
>INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK:
>
>>  How timely!
>>
>>  I just read today an article at the NY Times site about this seal:
>>
>>  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/31/science/social/31SEAL.html
>>
>>  It at least gives everyone a clear picture of the inscription on the
>>  object.
>>
>---
>Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
>Institute of Oriental Studies
>Mon, 06 Aug 101 21:30 +0300 MSK




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Mon Aug  6 20:26:39 2001
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 01 23:26:39 +0300
Subject: "BMAC writing"
In-Reply-To: <20010731234613W.kharimot@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069535.23782.2110976362491072557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        Many thanks to Kengo Harimoto for reference to the NY Times site with
a new article (by the same J.N.Wilford) on the Anau seal. It contains a much better ]
view of the seal with inscription. The third sign has no parallels in the
known Indus records. So the writing is not so much "Indus-like", as it
seemed to me.
        Meanwhile I recieved a letter from Asko Parpola who is not yet on
the new Indology list at the moment (thanks to Petteri Koskikallio and Dominik Wujastyk,
who both forwarded my posting to him). Prof. Parpola says he is not sure it is real
writing, "and in any case it is not Indus script".
        But if it is not the "classical" Indus script as we know it, that does not
mean that it is necessarily "BMAC script". There are many other possibilities. For
example:
        we still face the fact that the form of the seal is typical
of the Indus Valley Civilization (while there is nothing like that among hundreds of
known BMAC seals). So may be this seal is from the Indus region, but from an earlier
period, when the "classical" Indus form of writing has not yet been developed -
in other words, could not the Anau seal represent an earlier form of the Indus
script? The shiny black jet, of which the seal is made, is a hard stone, and the seal,
found in the context of about 2300 B.C., could well be made several centuries earlier.
        Another possibility is that it is not "real writing", but an imitation of
writing. Such imitation is a well-known cultural phenomenon often emerging on barbaric
peripheries of great civilizations.Anau region could well be a transit point from where
Indus trade goods (coming, let us say, from Shortugai) were forwarded further to the
West. Local people could use this "imitation seal" in the same way as some people do now
at the black markets putting phony labels "Made in Italy" or "in the USA" and so on
on their home-made junk clothes...
        And why can not we suggest, after all, that this writing
belongs to another civilization, different both from BMAC and from
the Indus (though closer to the last one, judging from the form of the seal)?
        The second article by J.W.Wilford contains some wild
phantasies, like suggestions of "a possible Chinese connection" (that
is, imaginary links between the Anau script and Chinese writing dated
by at least 2000 years later!). But there are, at the same time, more
sober remarks."In a story going around the Penn campus, when Dr.
Hiebert showed the inscribed object to Dr. Robert Dyson, retired
director of the University Museum of Archaeology, Dr. Dyson said: "
Good job, Fred. Now go out and find a hundred more like it".
        Surely we have to agree with Prof. Parpola: "We must wait for
some more excavation at Anau, perhaps other similar seals
will emerge". And perhaps not.
                                                                Ya.V.

Wed, 01 Aug 101 00:46 +0300 MSK Kengo Harimoto wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK:

> How timely!
>
> I just read today an article at the NY Times site about this seal:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/31/science/social/31SEAL.html
>
> It at least gives everyone a clear picture of the inscription on the
> object.
>
---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Institute of Oriental Studies
Mon, 06 Aug 101 21:30 +0300 MSK




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Tue Aug  7 10:19:58 2001
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 01 13:19:58 +0300
Subject: "BMAC writing"
In-Reply-To: <p05100301b794a9fec7da@[128.146.41.35]>
Message-ID: <161227069540.23782.6934266302855758445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

        I would consider a PROTO-Chinese connection or Shang dynasty
parallels worthy of discussion, but in NYTimes' 2nd article the accent
is made on the parallels with "not an early script, but one that was
not used until about 200 B.C.", that is a script "practiced in the
Western Han dynasty of 206 B.C. to A.D. 9".
        Probably all this is due to typical journalistic distortion
of scholarly opinions. You are quite right: we shall better wait not
only for new excavations, but also for a regular publication of the
seal in a scholarly magazine and its first scientific interpretations.

                                                                Ya.V.

Mon, 06 Aug 101 23:20 +0300 MSK John C. Huntington wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK:

> >The second article by J.W.Wilford contains some wild
> >phantasies, like suggestions of "a possible Chinese connection" (that
> >is, imaginary links between the Anau script and Chinese writing dated
> >by at least 2000 years later!).
>
>
> I must note that this in not so wild a fantasy,   The Shang dynasty
> definitely had writing in the second millenium bce and  Ho Ping-ti in
> his Cradle of the East, points out that there are markers scratched
> on the bases of Yang Shao pottery that easily date to mid fifth
> millenium. I am certainly no expert in these fields, but it appears
> that the Chinese had a notation system of some sort long before the
> "seal" came into existence.  Victor Maier,  who was cited by Wilford,
> certainly is however, and deserves a fair hearing.
>
> I must also note that the cutting of the marks on the seal are so
> unlike Harappan seals, that it simply cannot be of that area.
> Perhaps a "blank" was traded cut with someone elses marks?
>
> In my opinion, we shoud all wait u;ntil the corpus is a bit bigger than "one"
>
> John
>

---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Institute of Oriental Studies
Tue, 07 Aug 101 13:08 +0300 MSK




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Aug  8 12:22:14 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 01 08:22:14 -0400
Subject: new: EJVS- 7-5: Staal on Vedic Geometry & the History of Science
Message-ID: <161227069542.23782.5693936886042084769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Frits Staal has added an important addendum to my  "Autochthonous Aryans"
(EJVS 7-3).
His article (EJVS 7-5, just published)  is entitled:

"There Is No Proof But ...
Addendum to EJVS 7-3 on Vedic Geometry & the History of Science"

It is available (email version) on my web site as:
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-5.htm

and as pdf file (with diacritics) as:
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJ-staal.pdf

and it will also appear on the EJVS site shortly.
http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html

M. Witzel
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Aug  8 12:22:20 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 01 08:22:20 -0400
Subject: HINDI version of Frontline paper
Message-ID: <161227069544.23782.9084135679460928615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer and I are happy to announce that our "Horseplay" piece in
Frontline of Oct. 13, 2000 has now also been published in HINDI, by Sahmat,
New Delhi.

This piece  exposes N Jha's and NS  Rajaram's fantasy "decipherment" of the
Indus script  (e.g,  "100 noisy crows"!) and the closely linked horse seal
fraud (featuring a "translation" of the half-bull-turned-horse seal
inscription that allegedly refers to a horse!).

The Hindi version is available at the following URL as pdf file.

http://www.safarmer.com/frontline/hindi.html

and via my web site

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm



Enjoy!

M. Witzel
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/




From petteri.koskikallio at HELSINKI.FI  Wed Aug  8 13:11:54 2001
From: petteri.koskikallio at HELSINKI.FI (Petteri Koskikallio)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 01 16:11:54 +0300
Subject: 12th World Sanskrit Conference: First Circular
Message-ID: <161227069546.23782.7516166485274996708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

12th WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE
Helsinki, Finland, 14-19 July, 2003


As decided by the International Association of Sanskrit Studies (IASS)
at its 10th and 11th World Sanskrit Conferences held in Bangalore (India)
in 1997 and in Turin (Italy) in 2000, the 12th World Sanskrit Conference
will be held in Helsinki (Finland), from the 14th to the 19th of July,
2003. The conference is organized by the IASS and the Department of
Indology, Institute for Asian and African Studies, University of
Helsinki. The organisers look forward to welcoming fellow scholars to
Helsinki for the conference.


MODE OF OPERATION AT THE 12th WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE

The 12th World Sanskrit Conference will operate in 14 parallel sections
organized by scholars specializing in the particular field. They will
be responsible for selecting the papers to be presented in the section,
for supervising the meetings of the section and for editing the papers
subsequently in a separate volume. The chairpersons may modify the title
of their section and volume, for example by giving it a specific theme.
        To guarantee a high scholarly level for the conference, we have
asked the chairpersons to pre-select a proportion of the speakers by
invitation. Scholars wishing to present a paper but not directly
contacted by the respective chairpersons in advance will be in
competition with each other. Titles and abstracts of unsolicited papers
should be sent to the conference organizers in Helsinki; they will be
forwarded to the relevant chairpersons, who will review them and select
the best.


SECTIONS AND CHAIRPERSONS

The 14 sections and their chairpersons, who have all kindly agreed to
accept their demanding task, are indicated below. Specific themes, as
well as individual speakers and the titles of their papers, will be
announced on the web-page of the conference and in its later circulars,
as and when this information becomes available.

1. Veda - Asko Parpola, Masato Fujii
2. Epics - Muneo Tokunaga, Robert P. Goldman
3. Puranas - Hans Bakker, Petteri Koskikallio
4. Agamas and Tantras - Bruno Dagens, Alexis Sanderson
5. Vyakarana - George Cardona, Madhav Deshpande
6. Linguistics - Bertil Tikkanen, Heinrich Hettrich
7. Poetry, Drama and Aesthetics - Edwin Gerow, Virpi H?meen-Anttila
8. Scientific Literature - Michio Yano, Dominik Wujastyk
9. Buddhist Studies - Richard Gombrich,
10. Jaina Studies - Colette Caillat, Nalini Balbir
11. Philosophy - Johannes Bronkhorst, Albrecht Wezler
12. History and Epigraphy - Klaus Karttunen, Richard Salomon
13. Law and Society - Patrick Olivelle, Harry Falk
14. Art and Archaeology - Adalbert J. Gail, Gerd J. R. Mevissen


PAPERS

The time for presenting a paper at the conference is limited to either
15 or 30 minutes including discussion; the length of the written version
intended for publication is to be agreed with the chairpersons. Papers
offered without special invitation will be selected on the basis of
one-page abstracts (200-400 words). The abstracts are to be submitted
at least on paper but preferably also in electronic form, either by
e-mail or on a diskette, by the end of December, 2002. The decision
about acceptance or refusal of the paper will be notified by the end
of February, 2003. Invited speakers are asked to send the abstract
of their paper by the end of May, 2003. The papers presented will be
published afterwards in a series of volumes.


CONFERENCE FEE AND REGISTRATION FORMS

The conference fee is EUR 175 for participants who are not members of
the IASS, EUR 150 for members of the IASS, and EUR 75 for students.
If the fee is paid later than the end of March, 2003, it will be
increased by EUR 25; and there is a cancellation fee of EUR 25. Banking
details will be given in the second circular.
        The registration form, the abstract form and (later) the hotel
registration form will be available at the web-site of the conference
(http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/aakkl/12wsc).


CONFERENCE VENUE

The conference will be held in the handsome premises of the University
of Helsinki, in the centre of Helsinki. Reservations for accommodation
have been made in hotels of different categories, most of them within
walking distance. A list of the hotels and their prices (approximately
between EUR 170 and 50 per day) will be given in the second circular.


PRE- AND POST-CONFERENCE TOURS

Participants who wish to visit places of interest in Finland, Sweden
(e.g. Stockholm), Russia (e.g. St. Petersburg), or Estonia, Latvia or
Lithuania before or after the conference will have an opportunity to
make individual travel arrangements. A selection of the most popular
pre- or post-conference tours with their prices will be given later.


FLIGHTS TO FINLAND

SAS (Scandinavian Airlines System), the Official Airline of the 12th
World Sanskrit Conference, will offer special conference fares for the
participants.


CIRCULARS

- First circular: general information + pre-registration form,
in July/August 2001
- Second circular: more detailed information about the programme,
accommodation, travel, etc. + registration form + hotel reservation form,
in August 2002
- Third circular: provisional schedule, interim list of participants,
other updated information, in March 2003

This circular and other information relating to the conference can be
found on the conference homepage, which will be updated at least on the
above-mentioned dates. The 2nd and 3rd circulars will be sent to all
those who have returned a completed pre-registration form.


ORGANIZING COMMITTEE

President:  Asko Parpola
Secretary:  Petteri Koskikallio
Other Finnish Members:  Virpi H?meen-Anttila
                        Klaus Karttunen
                        Bertil Tikkanen
International Members:	
        Ram Karan Sharma (President of the IASS)
        John Brockington (Secretary General of the IASS)
        Colette Caillat (Former Treasurer of the IASS)
        Bruno Dagens (Treasurer of the IASS)


ADDRESSES

Mailing address:
        12th World Sanskrit Conference
        Institute for Asian and African Studies
        P.O.Box 59
        FIN-00014 University of Helsinki
        FINLAND

Visiting address of the Institute:
        Unioninkatu 38 B, Helsinki

Phone:  +358-15-444130 (Petteri Koskikallio)
        +358-9-19122674 (Asko Parpola)
Fax:    +358-9-19122094
web-site: http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/aakkl/12wsc

e-mail: petteri.koskikallio at helsinki.fi
        asko.parpola at helsinki.fi
        klaus.karttunen at helsinki.fi
 




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Fri Aug 10 02:00:39 2001
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 01 22:00:39 -0400
Subject: Death of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227069548.23782.250346012576399969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to publicly thank Sheldon Pollock for his generous offer to
distribute his article to all interested parties.  Having just read the
article, I would like to add my voice to the chorus of stutis that it has
already received.  It is a valuable discussion of what appears to have been,
in some sense, the final days of oiving Sanskritic culture in India.

As a Vedicist, I surely have an antiquarian's view of the pre-moderrn,
pre-colonial culture examined by Pollock.  From my distant vantage point,
Sanskrit authors like jagannAtha, siddhicandra, and kavIndra seem almost like
our contemporaries, even though I accept Pollock's general point that in
spite of their closeness to us in time, we still don't know very much about
them.  If we compare these authors to, say, vizvAmitra or vasiSTha, however,
I think it is clear that we are dealing with very different universes.
Little known to us though they may be, jagannAtha, et al., are, in my
opinion, recognizably our peers.  This is not true of our Vedic authors,
whose cultural universe in my view shares frustratingly little with ours.
But that is not the point that I wish to make in this note.

Rather, I'd like to defend the use of the term "death" to refer to the
condition of Sanskrit at this time.  Madhav Deshpande has expressed his
misgivings re this term, but he was responding, if I recall, on an e-mail
list that is rampant with Yahoo-Indologists.  In that context, applying the
term "death" to Sanskrit is surely inflammatory, and therefore best to be
avoided.  Like Madhav, I surely wouldn't use the term in the company of such
folks.  Pollock himself, in the present article, has also expressed
misgivings about the connotations and appropriateness of the metaphor
"language death."

But in the company of this list's members I certainly would accept this as a
legitimate concept.  If one were to take a brief look at contemporary
journals of linguistics, it would quickly become clear that language death is
a topic of significant, vital concern [see also the related topics: language
extinction, language preservation, endangered languages, etc].  The term
'language death' has a more or less clear definition for linguists.  It
refers to a specific condition: that point at which a given language no
longer operates as anyone's first language, that point at which there are no
longer native speakers of the language.  At that point the language is said
to be dead, even if there may be a Kroeber who has survived his Ishi, and can
make some sense of what has 'survived' of this language in transcriptions and
in grammars.  In fact, languages are dying at an alarming rate, and many
linguists are clearly concerned about this.

The peculiarity of Sanskrit, as of other classical languages, is that even
after it has reached that point beyond which it cannot claim any native
speakers [pace those "Speak Sanskrit" communities which have perhaps
recklessly experimented with their children's first language acquisition], it
continues to have a sort of after-life, in the case of Sanskrit a quite
strong after-life. In my view, this is what Pollock has examined in his
present article.

For the sake of brevity, I would suggest that the question of whether or not
Sanskrit is dead is, or should be considered, an empirical question.  Is
there a point at which Sanskrit stopped being the native language for a given
speaker or community of speakers?

To put this question differently: what are the features of all natural
languages, and do classical languages like Sanskrit or Latin exhibit all of
these features?  If in fact it has lost one or more of these features, when
exactly did it do so?

There is a certain unpredictability, fluiditiy, drift, creativity and
innovation, outright borrowing, external influences from other languages,
etc., in all natural languages [like Vedic] that one fails to see in the
epigonic after-life of classical languages [like Classical Sanskrit].

The question of the death of Sanskrit can be answered rationally by
determining whether and to what extent it possesses the features that are
characteristic of all natural languages.

If I am not mistaken, the evidence offered by Pollock suggests that Sanskrit
at this late stage in its history lacks some of these features.  But perhaps
I am mistaken.

I would be grateful if list members could clarify this issue for me.

Best wishes,

George Thompson




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Aug 10 12:24:43 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 08:24:43 -0400
Subject: Death of Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <71.10f3d6c1.28a49a47@cs.com>
Message-ID: <161227069550.23782.9877321565953469523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

            My views on "the death of Sanskrit" are not determined by
whether I write to Indology on Yahoo or at Liverpool.  I think we are
confusing the term "language death" used by linguists with what happened to
Sanskrit in the 17th century.  If "loss of use as the first language" is
the criterion for language death, I would have no problem using this term
with reference to Sanskrit.  However, in that case, Sanskrit "as a first
language" died its death perhaps even before Panini, and certainly by
Patanjali's time.  I have myself argued for such a state of affairs and I
have no problem with that.  After that what we have is the rebirth and
survival of Sanskrit as a learned elite language of high culture.  As I
understand Sheldon's arguments, they don't deal with the first death of
Sanskrit as a first language, but with the second death, if I can call
that.  What is the death of a learned second language?  Sheldon is dealing
with the increasingly restrictive environment in which this learned second
language found itself.  There I do like his analysis, and agree with his
depiction.  However, in this role of being a learned, and now perhaps a
tertiary (rather than a second) language, Sanskrit continues to be used in
India in completely altered circumstances.  There is a tendency among
scholars to discount this late phase, in part because there are no good
English language sources on the Sanskrit literature produced in the last
hundred years or so, and because the Sanskrit reading materials in our
class-rooms exclusively deal with the classical phase.  However, there is
an immense Sanskrit production during the last two hundred years which is
basically unknown to modern western scholarship.  The five hundred pages of
S.B. Varnekar's History of Modern Sanskrit Literature (in Marathi), Ashok
Aklujkar's work on Appa Shastri Rashivadekar's contributions to emerging
Sanskrit monthly magazines (written in Sanskrit), annual Sanskrit debate
competitions at various Indian institutions in which Ashok and Vidyut
Aklujkar, I and so many others took part, annual Sanskrit drama
competitions held in places like Pune, Bombay, and Ujjain, all of this kind
of Sanskrit production cannot be simply discounted by marking the final
death of Sanskrit with Jagannaatha.  Post-Jagannaatha circumstances under
which Sanskrit continued to be used are indeed different.  They are
ever-more restrictive with the loss of status to Sanskrit as the language
of higher learning, and yet the works produced in Sanskrit, just since
independence in 1947, number to many hundred.  I would hope that the
investigation into the life and death of Sanskrit would seriously take into
account its current state of affairs.   Last time I was in Pune in 1999, I
attended the publication ceremony for Professor G.B. Palsule's epic length
Sanskrit work on Savarkar's life.  The entire function took place in
Sanskrit.  We need to account for this continued use of Sanskrit.  There
are some interesting linguistic studies of this modern Sanskrit.  In the
west, only Hans Hock had done some interesting work with modern spoken
Sanskrit.  One can find some fine linguistic analysis by Aralakatti in his
book on modern spoken Sanskrit.  If Sanskrit died a second death at the
time of Jagannaatha, it still has an on-going life after its second death,
distinctly different from its previous lives, and yet a life that needs a
serious academic investigation.  Around 1920s, a Marathi author N.C. Kelkar
published a series of essays titled "Revival of Sanskrit Studies" (in
Marathi:  Sa.msk.rta vidyece punar-ujjiivana) describing how Sanskrit
studies were enjoying a sort of revival under the newly emerging British
system of education in India during the last decades of the 19th century.
One of these days, I would like to translate these essays into English.
Varnekar's History of Modern Sanskrit Literature needs to be translated
into English as well.  Perhaps, Ashok can take up this project.

            The history of lives of Sanskrit may be like the Nine Lives of
Cats.  Reports of its final death may be premature.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande

--On Thursday, August 09, 2001, 10:00 PM +0000 George Thompson
<GthomGt at CS.COM> wrote:

> I would like to publicly thank Sheldon Pollock for his generous offer to
> distribute his article to all interested parties.  Having just read the
> article, I would like to add my voice to the chorus of stutis that it has
> already received.  It is a valuable discussion of what appears to have
> been, in some sense, the final days of oiving Sanskritic culture in India.
>
> As a Vedicist, I surely have an antiquarian's view of the pre-moderrn,
> pre-colonial culture examined by Pollock.  From my distant vantage point,
> Sanskrit authors like jagannAtha, siddhicandra, and kavIndra seem almost
> like our contemporaries, even though I accept Pollock's general point
> that in spite of their closeness to us in time, we still don't know very
> much about them.  If we compare these authors to, say, vizvAmitra or
> vasiSTha, however, I think it is clear that we are dealing with very
> different universes. Little known to us though they may be, jagannAtha,
> et al., are, in my opinion, recognizably our peers.  This is not true of
> our Vedic authors, whose cultural universe in my view shares
> frustratingly little with ours. But that is not the point that I wish to
> make in this note.
>
> Rather, I'd like to defend the use of the term "death" to refer to the
> condition of Sanskrit at this time.  Madhav Deshpande has expressed his
> misgivings re this term, but he was responding, if I recall, on an e-mail
> list that is rampant with Yahoo-Indologists.  In that context, applying
> the term "death" to Sanskrit is surely inflammatory, and therefore best
> to be avoided.  Like Madhav, I surely wouldn't use the term in the
> company of such folks.  Pollock himself, in the present article, has also
> expressed misgivings about the connotations and appropriateness of the
> metaphor "language death."
>
> But in the company of this list's members I certainly would accept this
> as a legitimate concept.  If one were to take a brief look at contemporary
> journals of linguistics, it would quickly become clear that language
> death is a topic of significant, vital concern [see also the related
> topics: language extinction, language preservation, endangered languages,
> etc].  The term 'language death' has a more or less clear definition for
> linguists.  It refers to a specific condition: that point at which a
> given language no longer operates as anyone's first language, that point
> at which there are no longer native speakers of the language.  At that
> point the language is said to be dead, even if there may be a Kroeber who
> has survived his Ishi, and can make some sense of what has 'survived' of
> this language in transcriptions and in grammars.  In fact, languages are
> dying at an alarming rate, and many linguists are clearly concerned about
> this.
>
> The peculiarity of Sanskrit, as of other classical languages, is that even
> after it has reached that point beyond which it cannot claim any native
> speakers [pace those "Speak Sanskrit" communities which have perhaps
> recklessly experimented with their children's first language
> acquisition], it continues to have a sort of after-life, in the case of
> Sanskrit a quite strong after-life. In my view, this is what Pollock has
> examined in his present article.
>
> For the sake of brevity, I would suggest that the question of whether or
> not Sanskrit is dead is, or should be considered, an empirical question.
> Is there a point at which Sanskrit stopped being the native language for
> a given speaker or community of speakers?
>
> To put this question differently: what are the features of all natural
> languages, and do classical languages like Sanskrit or Latin exhibit all
> of these features?  If in fact it has lost one or more of these features,
> when exactly did it do so?
>
> There is a certain unpredictability, fluiditiy, drift, creativity and
> innovation, outright borrowing, external influences from other languages,
> etc., in all natural languages [like Vedic] that one fails to see in the
> epigonic after-life of classical languages [like Classical Sanskrit].
>
> The question of the death of Sanskrit can be answered rationally by
> determining whether and to what extent it possesses the features that are
> characteristic of all natural languages.
>
> If I am not mistaken, the evidence offered by Pollock suggests that
> Sanskrit at this late stage in its history lacks some of these features.
> But perhaps I am mistaken.
>
> I would be grateful if list members could clarify this issue for me.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George Thompson




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Aug 10 15:37:18 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 11:37:18 -0400
Subject: SV: Death of Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <01C121B2.B3F5A4C0.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227069554.23782.9085790292495673787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--On Friday, August 10, 2001 3:38 PM +0200 Lars Martin Fosse
<lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

> Madhav M. Deshpande [SMTP:mmdesh at UMICH.EDU] skrev 10. august 2001 14:25:
>> Last time I was in Pune in 1999, I attended the publication ceremony for
> Professor G.B. Palsule's epic
>> length Sanskrit work on Savarkar's life.
>
> Would it be possible to get the bibliographic info on Palsule's work?
>
> Apart from that, I support Madhav's view that Skt. is not entirely dead.
> We need to know more about what is written in Skt today, it is likely to
> be an important source for people studying Neo-Hinduism and Hindu
> politics. Apart from that, I see no intrinsic reason why modern Sanskrit
> works should be devoid of literary merit. That would depend on the
> writer, not the language employed.
>
> Some years ago, I came across a Sanskrit translation of a short story by
> Tolstoj. I would like to ask: is this a lone bird in the sky, or is there
> a broader translation activity in the same vein?
>
> It would also be interesting to know how many people in India today are
> able to read a work composed in Sanskrit, their sociological profile etc.
> (I am sure not everyone is a Brahmin!).
>
> Lars Martin Fosse
>
> Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo
> Norway
> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
> Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
> Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
> Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
> Email: lmfosse at online.no

Palsule's epic poem on Savarkar's life is titled (if my memory serves me)
viira-vainaayakam (about 400 printed pages) published by Sharada Prakashan,
Pune.  I will see if I can get a more exact bibliographic reference.

                                                Madhav




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Aug 10 18:53:40 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 14:53:40 -0400
Subject: Death of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227069556.23782.14152870563178119339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is also  the continued use of Sanskrit as a liturgical language
and in private devotions - which also involves the creation of new
hymns, ritual texts, and purana-like texts.

Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Aug 10 13:38:48 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 15:38:48 +0200
Subject: SV: Death of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227069552.23782.17382567483747887543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav M. Deshpande [SMTP:mmdesh at UMICH.EDU] skrev 10. august 2001 14:25:
>Last time I was in Pune in 1999, I attended the publication ceremony for
Professor G.B. Palsule's epic
>length Sanskrit work on Savarkar's life.

Would it be possible to get the bibliographic info on Palsule's work?

Apart from that, I support Madhav's view that Skt. is not entirely dead. We
need to know more about what is written in Skt today, it is likely to be an
important source for people studying Neo-Hinduism and Hindu politics. Apart
from that, I see no intrinsic reason why modern Sanskrit works should be
devoid of literary merit. That would depend on the writer, not the language
employed.

Some years ago, I came across a Sanskrit translation of a short story by
Tolstoj. I would like to ask: is this a lone bird in the sky, or is there a
broader translation activity in the same vein?

It would also be interesting to know how many people in India today are
able to read a work composed in Sanskrit, their sociological profile etc.
(I am sure not everyone is a Brahmin!).

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Aug 10 20:32:50 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 16:32:50 -0400
Subject: Stefano Borgia, early patron of Indology
Message-ID: <161227069560.23782.3384889202743991199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Until Sept. 16 there is a major exhibit in in the Museon Nazionale
Archeologico in Naples of the collections of Stefano Cardinal Borgia,
1731-1804, head of the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith
(e.g. of the missions) , a major patron of "Oriental" studies in
general, and collector of works of art and books from all parts of the
globe.  It is accompanied by two very thorough and beautifully printed
books from Electa Napoli (Lire 70,000/Euro 36.15):

Nocca, Marco, ed.
Le quattor voci del mondo : arte, cultura e saperi nella collezione
di Stefano Borgia 1731-1804 : Giornate Internazionale di Studi,
Velletri Palazzo Comunale - Sala Tersicore, 130-14 Maggio 2000

Germano, Anna and Nocca, Marco, eds.
La collezione Borgia : curiosita' e tesori da ogni parte del mondo

The former is a symposium on Borgia's activities and collections, the
latter the catalog.

His collections eventually wound up divided between Naples (the
M.N.A. and the Capodimonte), the Vatican (Library and various of the
Museums), and the Congregation (and elsewhere?  I haven't gone through
the book yet).

There is also a room devoted to his collections at the Capodimonte.
I'm not sure if it's permanent or temporary.

Among those he sponsored was the Capuchin Indologist Paulinus a
Sancto Bartholomeo, prominent in early typography.

There is an article in the catalog on a Keralan Bhagavata manuscript
by Indology's own Raffaele Torella.

I missed this because it closed in Velletri just before I arrived in
Italy.  Upon coming to Naples purely for tourism I was joyfully
surprised to discover it had moved there, but when I went it was
closed for the day for a manifestazione by the staff.  I saw the one
room at Capodimonte but couldn't go back to the Museo Archeologico the
next day because I didn't have the heart to drag two teenage nephews
along, who were already getting worn down by a week of high culture in
90 degree plus heat Farenheit (high 30's Celsius).

Allen



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Fri Aug 10 21:50:05 2001
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 17:50:05 -0400
Subject: Yet more on the Death of Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0108102020330.13506-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069562.23782.1960632535599479409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One thing that has not been taken into account is the large and very
active Sanskrit community in both Newar and Parbatia Nepal.  I have
no idea the numbers, but in the Buddhist communities that we  work in
many of the senior Vajracharya teachers are quite fluent and there
are a lot of Shakya scholars who also know the language. I have met
and worked with Local priests, at various shrines who read and
completely understood, long tracts of Sanskrit.

Moreover, although I only know one personally, I am certain that
among the Hindu community there are also significant numbers of
Brahmins who also know Sanskrit very well. Sanskrit, "Buddhist
Sanskrit" at least, is certainly alive and well in Nepal.

Whether you could call any of these scholars "Sanskrit Panditas" or
not is a little less clear to me but there is clearly a high level
knowledge base among the most educated priests.

Also what about the Kerala Vedic priests? Wouldn't some of them know
Sanskrit well also?

John
--

*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
|
*     Visit the Huntington Photographic Archive
|          of Buddhist and Related Arts at:
*     http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/
|
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Aug 10 19:23:17 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 01 20:23:17 +0100
Subject: SV: Death of Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <233184.3206432238@[141.211.72.120]>
Message-ID: <161227069558.23782.2966508356621610732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To what extent is it possible to do some demographics on this issue?  At
least some part of this topic can surely be grasped quantitatively.

How many Sanskrit-functioning pandits were active in, say 1600?  1700?
1900?  Where would we look for statistics?

I think there is probably some mileage in counting manuscripts too, in
various interesting ways.  (By work, by author, by repository, etc.)

Dominik




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Aug 12 11:10:40 2001
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 01 14:10:40 +0300
Subject: Indian bronze
Message-ID: <161227069564.23782.6082073970578135198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,
        I need information on chemical composition of Indian bronze
(percentage of copper, tin and other metals) preferably in VI-V centuries B.C.
Could anybody give me a reference or a hint?
        Many thanks in advance,
                                                Yaroslav Vassilkov
---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Institute of Oriental Studies
Sun, 12 Aug 101 13:50 +0300 MSK




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Aug 12 18:39:41 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 01 14:39:41 -0400
Subject: Death of Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <3B76C1B7.97C5855A@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227069568.23782.16991340537777359666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Axel Michael remembers correctly, even after a quarter century,  that I had
prepared a paper on the Skt. traditions of Nepal. However, this old paper
was restricted to Vedic Traditions, and it was published in local (now
defunct) general interest journal:

On the history and the present state of Vedic tradition in   Nepal.
Vasudha,  15, No. 12, Kathmandu 1976, 17-24; 35-39
(cf. also: Zur Geschichte der Rajopadhyayas von Bhaktapur. Folia Rara.
Festschrift W. Voigt, ed. by H. Franke et al.,  Wiesbaden  1976, pp.
155-175)

Since it is virtually unavailable I may scan it  and put it up on my
website as
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicNepal.htm
Keep looking  (I will announce it)

The same topic, but with stress on the manuscript traditions is taken up
again, 25 years later,  in a fortcoming volume celebrating the 30 years of
the NGMPP (Nepal German Manuscript Preservation Project) as:  "Medieval
Veda Tradition as Reflected  in Nepalese Manuscripts"

http://www.uni-hamburg.de/Wiss/FB/10/IndienS/NGMPP/index.html


>As regards the death of Sanskrit in Nepal, I remember a draft article of
>Michaels Witzel on the situation of Sanskrit learning in this Himalayan
>kingdom. However, as far as I know that study has never been published.
>Mahes Raj Pant, presently Lepzig (?), had also published a book on the
>same subject.

Mahesh is again at Hamburg now (until the end of the year):
"Mahes Raj Pant" <mahesrajpant at hotmail.com>

His well-balanced book incorporating both South Asian and "Western"
perspectives:

On Sanskrit education / Mahes Raj Pant.
Kathmandu : Pant, 1979.
viii, 202 p. ; 20 cm.

(available at Harvard, Chicago Libraries, etc)


Hope this helps !


MW>

========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/




From Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Sun Aug 12 17:49:43 2001
From: Axel.Michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 01 19:49:43 +0200
Subject: Death of Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227069566.23782.6086620322670942724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

Perhaps it might interested you that two years ago a conference on some
topics, which Sh. Pollock raised, was held at the University of
Heidelberg (I should have invited him!). (details:
www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/index.htm, click "Konferenzen" in the
German version). The conference was dedicated to Pt. P. Aithal who
represents a generation of Sanskrit learning which is hard to replace.
But this does not necessarily mean the death of Sanskrit.
 I  attach the list of papes which are (with, in some cases, slightly
different titles, some additions and other variations) in press with
Manohar Publications and should be relased within this year.
As regards the death of Sanskrit in Nepal, I rememeber a draft article of
Michaels Witzel on the situation of Sanskrit learning in this Himalayan
kingdom. However, as far as I know that study has never been published.
Mahes Raj Pant, presently Lepzig (?), had also published a book on the
same subject.

Best wishes
Axel Michaels

-----

The Pandit: the future of traditional Sanskrit scholarship


List of papers

Albrecht Wezler, Hamburg
Some Remarks on Nirukta 1.20 s?ksh?tkritadharm?na rishayah

James Benson, Oxford
Shamkarabhatta`s Family Biography: the G?dhivamshavarnanam

Johannes Bronkhorst, Lausanne
Traditional and Modern Sanskrit Scholarship

Monika Boehm-Tettelbach, Heidelberg
A Pandit Among the Modernists and a Modernist Among the Pandits

G. C. Tripathi, Allahabad
samskrita-p?ndulipi-parampar?y?h samrakshan?rtham bh?rat?ya-pandit?n?m
avad?nam

Ashok Aklujkar, Vancouver
The Pandits from a pindabrahm?nda Point of View

Christopher Z. Minkowski, Ithaca
The Pandit as Public Intellectual in the 19th Century: The Controversy
over
avirodha or Inconsistency in the Astronomical Sciences

Madhav Deshpande, Ann Arbor
The Pandit and the Professor in 19th Century Maharashtra

Axel Michaels, Heidelberg
The Pandit as a Legal Adviser

S. Sarma Peri, Marburg
Traditional Way of Sanskrit Teaching and Learning (Memorization,
Rezitation,
guru-shishya-relationship)

Harry Falk, Berlin
The galitas of the Rigveda and the Origin of samhitap?tha and padap?tha

Parameswara Aithal, Heidelberg
Traditional Memory Techniques in Sanskrit Studies

K. Krishna Bhat, Mangalagangotri
The Impact of Traditional Study Skills of Sanskrit in the Pursuit of
Modern
Education

Bettina B?umer, Berne, Vienna, Benares
Tantrik Pandits in Benares




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Mon Aug 13 18:41:50 2001
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 01 14:41:50 -0400
Subject: Indian bronze
In-Reply-To: <2001Aug12.141041@YV1041.spb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069571.23782.17843786522184992805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One person who might know the answer is Chandra Reedy [that is not a
mis spelling for Reddy] at <Chandra.Reedy at MVS.Udel.edu>

She usually works on later stuff but may have knowledge of resources
on earlier materials

John

>Dear colleagues,
>         I need information on chemical composition of Indian bronze
>(percentage of copper, tin and other metals) preferably in VI-V centuries B.C.
>Could anybody give me a reference or a hint?
>         Many thanks in advance,
>                                                 Yaroslav Vassilkov
>---
>Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
>Institute of Oriental Studies
>Sun, 12 Aug 101 13:50 +0300 MSK




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Aug 14 18:04:16 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 01 14:04:16 -0400
Subject: Stefano Borgia, early patron of Indology
Message-ID: <161227069573.23782.16794494716627790429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have been asked about whether Cardinal Borgia belonged to THOSE
Borgias - a matter I ment to mention in my original message.  The
Velletri Borgias claimed descent from a knight who came from Spain in
the 12th century, so any connection to the Renaissance Borgias (who came
from Spain c. 1400) was remote.  On the other hand, there is a partial
resemblance in the arms.  In addition, the family had portraits of the
more reputable of the Spanish Borgias, namely St. Francis Borgia, Pope
Calixtus III, and Card. Carlo Borgia (17th c.), (these are now owned by
the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, formerly Propaganda
Fide), which implies they claimed kin.  Stefano also owned the missal of
Pope Alexander VI, but it would certainly be the sort of thing he would
want purely on bibliophilic motives if none others; reproductions from
it are a mainstay of the Vatican giftshops.

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Aug 14 19:07:46 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 01 15:07:46 -0400
Subject: good article on religion, patronage, and coercion in India
Message-ID: <161227069576.23782.1955175985233612204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following is an excellent article on a subject we have been hearing
about a lot:

Giovanni Verardi
Religions, rituals, and the heaviness of Indian history
Annali (Istituto Universitario Orientale, Napoli), 56, 1996, 215-253.

Verardi argues that Brahmanism (not 'Hinduism,' a term he agrees in
rejecting) is a religion of the book (the Veda) which book marks it off
from other religions and makes it incompatible with them, and that it
has an orthodoxy as well as an orthopraxy.  He maintains that Brahmanism
has been willing to exercise coercion, not excluding lethal force, in
maintaining or restoring its hegemony, and that the use of force by the
state has played a crucial role in the decline of Buddhism and lesser
decline of Jainism within India.  He says that the claim that
persecution had to wait until the Muslims comes from a historiography
influenced by Indian or specifically Hindu nationalism and Western
exoticism which wished to find a non-persecuting religion.  This is
backed with much evidence from archeology, art, epigraphy, literature,
and tradition.

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Wed Aug 15 10:41:59 2001
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 01 06:41:59 -0400
Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT
Message-ID: <161227069581.23782.10829912319270112854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following position announcement is being forwarded to your mailing
list or listserv from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. The
direct url for this announcement is:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/southasia/cuvl/jobs/TRLN.html
Please contact the TRLN directly as indicated for any further
information.
David Magier

----------------------------------

South Asian Studies Library Fellow
  Triangle Research Libraries Network (TRLN)

The Triangle South Asia Consortium (TSAC) is a Title VI National Resource
Center funded by the U.S. Department of Education and comprised of the
South Asia programs of Duke University, the University of North Carolina at
Chapel Hill, North Carolina State University, and North Carolina Central
University.  The mission of TSAC is to promote the study of the South Asian
subcontinent and to coordinate research, teaching, and cultural programming
for South Asia across the consortium's constituent universities.  The
Triangle Research Libraries Network (TRLN) facilitates the implementation
of cooperative collection development and user services among TSAC
libraries to ensure the availability of resources for teaching and
research.

TRLN seeks an energetic individual with a strong subject and language
background in South Asian studies and an interest in working in research
libraries to participate in the creation of a new collaborative model for
collection development and public service.  Based at Duke University
Libraries, the position works closely with the newly defined TRLN South
Asia Librarian, who coordinates all library activities related to South
Asian studies in the four libraries. The South Asian Studies Library Fellow
will be appointed for a one-year period, with renewal possible for an
additional two years.  The position reports to the Head of the
International and Area Studies Department in Perkins Library at Duke
University.

Working closely with the TRLN South Asia Librarian and other librarians
throughout TRLN, the Fellow will gain hands-on knowledge of collection
development, acquisitions, cataloging and public services work.  The Fellow
will become familiar with the functioning of research libraries and will
work closely with faculty in TSAC to implement the new model.   The
principal goal is to build coordinated collections and provide outstanding
service to scholars and students locally as well as to remote users of
TRLN's South Asian resources.

QUALIFICATIONS
Required: Advanced degree in a field of South Asian studies with some
working experience in research libraries; ability to work effectively with
faculty, students, and library staff; knowledge of Hindi or Urdu; and
excellent oral and written communication skills in English.  Highly
desirable: knowledge of other South Asian vernacular languages.
Applications from persons who also have a degree in librarianship are also
encouraged.

SALARY AND BENEFITS
Salary and rank dependent on qualifications and experience; minimums are
$34,800 for Assistant Librarian; $37,300 for Senior Assistant Librarian;
$40,650 for Associate Librarian; $46,750 for Librarian.  Comprehensive
benefits package.

APPLICATION
Send cover letter, detailed resume, and the names, mailing and e-mail
addresses, and telephone numbers of three references to: Sharon A.
Sullivan, Director, Personnel Services, Perkins Library, Box 90194, Duke
University, Durham, NC 27708.  Review of applications will begin in
mid-September and continue until the position is filled.

Duke University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer.  The
Perkins Library System has a strong commitment to Affirmative Action and is
actively seeking to increase the racial and ethnic diversity of our staff.




From wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK  Wed Aug 15 09:55:42 2001
From: wedemeyer at HUM.KU.DK (Christian K. Wedemeyer)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 01 11:55:42 +0200
Subject: Position announcement - South Asian Studies Fellow - Duke              University Libraries
Message-ID: <161227069578.23782.6005278922600569885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This position was announced on the Yahoo! INDOLOGY list, and I
thought it would be of interest to members of this list.

>"Sharon A Sullivan" <s.sullivan at duke.edu> wrote:
>
>                     South Asian Studies Library Fellow
>                 Triangle Research Libraries Network (TRLN)
>
>The Triangle South Asia Consortium (TSAC) is a Title VI National
>Resource Center funded by the U.S. Department of Education and
>comprised of the South Asia programs of Duke University, the
>University of North
>Carolina at Chapel Hill, North Carolina State University, and North Carolina
>Central University.  The mission of TSAC is to promote the study of the South
>Asian subcontinent and to coordinate research, teaching, and cultural
>programming for South Asia across the consortium's constituent
>universities.  The Triangle Research Libraries Network (TRLN)
>facilitates the
>implementation of cooperative collection development and user
>services among TSAC libraries to ensure the availability of
>resources for teaching and
>research.
>
>TRLN seeks an energetic individual with a strong subject and language
>background in South Asian studies and an interest in working in
>research libraries to participate in the creation of a new
>collaborative model for collection development and public service.
>Based at Duke University
>Libraries, the position works closely with the newly defined TRLN South
>Asia Librarian, who coordinates all library activities related to South
>Asian studies in the four libraries. The South Asian Studies Library
>Fellow will be appointed for a one-year period, with renewal possible for an
>additional two years.  The position reports to the Head of the
>International and Area Studies Department in Perkins Library at Duke
>University.
>
>Working closely with the TRLN South Asia Librarian and other librarians
>throughout TRLN, the Fellow will gain hands-on knowledge of collection
>development, acquisitions, cataloging and public services work.  The
>Fellow will become familiar with the functioning of research libraries and
>will work closely with faculty in TSAC to implement the new model.   The
>principal goal is to build coordinated collections and provide outstanding
>service to scholars and students locally as well as to remote users of
>TRLN's South Asian resources.
>
>QUALIFICATIONS
>Required: Advanced degree in a field of South Asian studies with some
>working experience in research libraries; ability to work effectively
>with faculty, students, and library staff; knowledge of Hindi or Urdu; and
>excellent oral and written communication skills in English.  Highly
>desirable: knowledge of other South Asian vernacular languages.
>Applications from persons who also have a degree in librarianship are
>also encouraged.
>
>SALARY AND BENEFITS
>Salary and rank dependent on qualifications and experience; minimums
>are $34,800 for Assistant Librarian; $37,300 for Senior Assistant
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>APPLICATION
>Send cover letter, detailed resume, and the names, mailing and e-mail
>addresses, and telephone numbers of three references to: Sharon A.
>Sullivan, Director, Personnel Services, Perkins Library, Box 90194,
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>mid-September and continue until the position is filled.
>
>Duke University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer.
>The Perkins Library System has a strong commitment to Affirmative Action
>and is actively seeking to increase the racial and ethnic diversity of our
>staff.




From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Thu Aug 16 02:16:30 2001
From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 01 13:16:30 +1100
Subject: Identification of a verse in the Ganezapuraa.na
In-Reply-To: <sb79306a.095@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227069583.23782.11576254276271478149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,


Can anybody help me with the following verse which is 2.5.9ab of the Gopal
Narayan and Sons edition (Bombay 1892) of the Ga.nezapuraa.na.  I have
checked Books 3, 12 and 13 of the MBh and a p?da Index of Manu.  Somehow it
rings a bell, but it cannot locate another instance of it.

pati.m vinaa na caanyaasti gati.h sadyo.sitaa.m prabho

Thanks,


Greg Bailey




From tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK  Fri Aug 17 18:55:05 2001
From: tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 01 20:55:05 +0200
Subject: Translation of Hand Christian Andersen's fairy tales into Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227069585.23782.4321773874925433883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of Indology,

I received a letter from a Hans Christian Andersen museum here in
Denmark asking me about Sanskrit translations of his fairy tales.
They brought to my attention a citation from the 5. April 1865 entry
of Andersen's diary.  In the diary Andersen narrates that during a
concert arranged by the queen dowager he was informed by
Christian H. Kalkar that he would soon receive a Sanskrit
translation of his fairytales Calcutta.

This seems to be all the information availble.  Apparently there is
no record of Andersen ever receiving the book from Calcutta.

The museum are now seeking further information and hope to be
able to procure a copy of the Sanskrit translation for their collection.

It seems that the year 1865 is rather early date for a Sanskrit
translation of Andersen's works.  A plausible explanation could be
that someone in Calcutta mistook a collection of Sanskrit fables for
Andersen's fairy tales, perhaps because of some similarity in the
stories.  (Perhaps Andersen had even read Sanskrit fables; the
Hitopade;sa and the Pa~ncatantra were available in Europe during
his lifetime.)  The museum, however, emphasises that since
Andersen got the information from Kalkar, a respectable theologian
and scholar, we need to take it seriously.  But Kalkar was not a
Sanskritist and we do not know the source who informed him about
the translation, so it is possible that he was mistaken.

Would any of you happen to know anything about this?  Any
information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Mon Aug 20 17:21:01 2001
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 01 19:21:01 +0200
Subject: new: EJVS- 7-5: Staal on Vedic Geometry & the History of              Science
Message-ID: <161227069587.23782.6932170689831260259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

F. Staal suggests in his Addendum to Michael Witzel?s brilliant
"Autochthonous Aryans" (EJVS 7-3) that - more than 20 years ago - I had
proposed in my thesis "Beweisverfahren in der vedischen Sakralgeometrie"
(Hamburg, 1978) an autochthonous theory of Vedic geometry. This is true, but
in doing this I did not deny any relationship between Vedic geometry and
other geometries. I was concerned with the historical and ritual conditions
that led to the development of Vedic sacral geometry and as a consequence to
proofs of certain theorems. In lack of other sources than we have got, i.e.
the Sulvasutras and related texts as well as the archaeological remains, I
still believe that the development from pre-geometrical knowledge of placing
bricks and a geometrical theory of how to operate with geometrical forms has
primarily to do with the construction of altars and the use of bricks in
various shapes and forms.  At least, I tried to demonstrate how such a
knowledge could have developed from the ritual background, and in a review of
my thesis David Pingree (Isis 72 (1981), 140f.) basically agreed to it. This
does by no means imply that I am saying that such an elementary geometrical
knowledge could not have been influenced by Eurasian links or that it must
have been limited to India or that all this knowledge is originating from
India. However, "the burden of proof always is with the one who proposes such
an exchange."
I wish I still could contribute more substantially to the fascinating
discussion which developed in the past twenty years, but my interests have
gone in another direction.
Axel Michaels


Michael Witzel wrote:

> Frits Staal has added an important addendum to my  "Autochthonous Aryans"
> (EJVS 7-3).
> His article (EJVS 7-5, just published)  is entitled:
>
> "There Is No Proof But ...
> Addendum to EJVS 7-3 on Vedic Geometry & the History of Science"
>
> It is available (email version) on my web site as:
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-5.htm
>
> and as pdf file (with diacritics) as:
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJ-staal.pdf
>
> and it will also appear on the EJVS site shortly.
> http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html
>
> M. Witzel
> ========================================================
> Michael Witzel
> Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
> 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA
>
> ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
> home page:  http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
>
> Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Fri Aug 24 00:58:25 2001
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 01 19:58:25 -0500
Subject: Trubachov?  Trubachev, O.N.
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001082400400542@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069591.23782.14515961936067290449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav,

   It is in Russian, available at 22 libraries (including UW Madison). For
details, see below.  (I found it using WorldCat.)

best,
Tim

Assistant Professor
Religious Studies Dept.
Loyola University
New Orleans, LA  70118
ph. (504) 865-3183

-----------------------
ndoarica v Severnom Prichernomore:  rekonstruktsiia reliktov
iazyka : etimologicheskii slovar /
Author(s): Trubachev, O.N.
Moskva: Nauka, 1999.
Pp. 318 [1] maps; 23 cm.
Language: Russian
ISBN: 5020116750; LCCN: 99-235151




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Aug 24 02:17:52 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 01 22:17:52 -0400
Subject: Trubachov?  Trubachev, O.N.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.33.0108231953570.52794-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069593.23782.393882750343625466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Tim.  UM library has received it and it is being processed.
Thanks.  I would like to hear from those who know about his theories.


Madhav

--On Thursday, August 23, 2001, 7:58 PM -0500 "Timothy C. Cahill"
<tccahill at LOYNO.EDU> wrote:

> Madhav,
>
>    It is in Russian, available at 22 libraries (including UW Madison). For
> details, see below.  (I found it using WorldCat.)
>
> best,
> Tim
>
> Assistant Professor
> Religious Studies Dept.
> Loyola University
> New Orleans, LA  70118
> ph. (504) 865-3183
>
> -----------------------
> ndoarica v Severnom Prichernomore:  rekonstruktsiia reliktov
> iazyka : etimologicheskii slovar /
> Author(s): Trubachev, O.N.
> Moskva: Nauka, 1999.
> Pp. 318 [1] maps; 23 cm.
> Language: Russian
> ISBN: 5020116750; LCCN: 99-235151



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Aug 23 23:40:05 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 01 00:40:05 +0100
Subject: Trubachov?
Message-ID: <161227069588.23782.17846912610189172560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Recently I saw a reference to a book (collected articles?) by Trubachov,
titled INDOARICA IN THE NORTH BLACK SEA REGION, published by Nauka
(Moscow?) in 1999.  Has anyone seen this book?  Is it in English or
Russian?  Our university library at Michigan does not have this book.  Any
suggestions on how to get hold of this book will be welcome.  Thanks.


                               Madhav Deshpande




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Fri Aug 24 14:53:19 2001
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 01 09:53:19 -0500
Subject: WorldCat  (OCLC FirstSearch)
In-Reply-To: <01C12CA2.644EE260.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227069597.23782.18349248569116366405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lars,

   It is proprietary, and so restricted to universities and other
subscribers.  The URL is:

http://newfirstsearch.oclc.org/

You can read a description of the service there. WorldCat is valuable
because it provides bibliographic info for all major library holdings in
North America and Europe. This service is especially convenient if your
library has a link on their web site. You can then use it from an office
to order through interlibrary loan with ease. (No passwords, addresses,
etc.)

   There might be a "public" portal accessible via some obscure,
round-about route. If anyone knows of one  I think many independent
scholars would benefit.

best,
Tim Cahill




From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Aug 24 15:03:08 2001
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 01 11:03:08 -0400
Subject: Trubachov?
Message-ID: <161227069598.23782.16079107967836364169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think it must be the following.  Perhaps those who know Russian can
confirm or disconfirm.

LC Control Number: 99235151
Type of Material:  Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)

Personal Name:     Trubachev, O. N. (Oleg Nikolaevich)
Main Title:        Indoarica v Severnom Prichernomor1e :
rekonstruktsiia reliktov
                      iazyka : etimologicheskii slovar1 / O.N.
Trubachev.
Published/Created: Moskva : Nauka, 1999.
Description:       318, [1] p. : maps ; 23 cm.
ISBN:              5020116750
Notes:             Includes bibliographical references (p.
303-[319]).
Subjects:          Indo-Aryan languages--Ukraine--Black Sea Lowland.
                   Black Sea Lowland
(Ukraine)--Languages--Etymology.
LC Classification: PK179 .T78 1999
Other System No.:  (DLC)   99235151
CALL NUMBER:       PK179 .T78 1999
                   Copy 1
-- Request in:     Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies
Reading Rms
-- Status:         Not Charged

--------------------------------------------------------------------
DATABASE NAME:     Library of Congress Online Catalog

Allen





Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Independence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.

>>> Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> 08/23 7:40 PM >>>
Recently I saw a reference to a book (collected articles?) by
Trubachov,
titled INDOARICA IN THE NORTH BLACK SEA REGION, published by Nauka
(Moscow?) in 1999.  Has anyone seen this book?  Is it in English or
Russian?  Our university library at Michigan does not have this book.
 Any
suggestions on how to get hold of this book will be welcome.
Thanks.


                               Madhav Deshpande




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Aug 24 09:35:05 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 01 11:35:05 +0200
Subject: SV: Trubachov?  Trubachev, O.N.
Message-ID: <161227069595.23782.13577947655094068419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Timothy C. Cahill [SMTP:tccahill at LOYNO.EDU] skrev 24. august 2001 02:58:
>    It is in Russian, available at 22 libraries (including UW Madison).
For
> details, see below.  (I found it using WorldCat.)

Tim, how exactly does one use WorldCat?  I am not familiar with it. Does
one have to work at a university, or is it available to ordinary punters
like myself?

Best regards,

Lars Martin

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Aug 27 10:27:26 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 06:27:26 -0400
Subject: Help with reading
In-Reply-To: <3B89FDFD.58FDF53A@hum.ku.dk>
Message-ID: <161227069602.23782.5637900568443846041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As best as I can read this verse, it goes:

                        C= laghu-linga.m caalayed yo


Madhav

--On Monday, August 27, 2001, 9:59 AM +0200 Kenneth Zysk <zysk at HUM.KU.DK>
wrote:

> Dear All:
>
> If someone has a clear copy of the Shubdakalpadruma handy, could you
> please confirm the following reading:
>
> Vol. 2, page 807, col. 2 (top): a quotation from Ratimanjari:
>
> I cannot make out pada C: caalayed yo ??
>
> Please confirm or correct.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Ken
>
> --
> Kenneth Zysk
> Department of Asian Studies
> University of Copenhagen  Ph:  +45 3532 8832
> Leifsgade 33,5    Fax: +45 3532 8835
> DK-2300 Copenhagen S    Denmark  Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk
>
> If mail address fails use: zysk at spam.hum.ku.dk



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Aug 27 15:36:57 2001
From: ghart at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (George Hart)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 08:36:57 -0700
Subject: Tamil Sangam Literature -- Herman's Tieken's book
Message-ID: <161227069609.23782.10958156025515165050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I notice the message reproduced at the end of these comments in
Indology in July.  While I have not yet seen Prof. Tieken's book, I
can certainly respond to the ideas on the back cover.  There is
overwhelming and indisputable evidence that the anthologies were not
written as late as the ninth or tenth century.  It is, moreover,
quite certain that the Sangam anthologies were not patterned after
Prakrit or Sanskrit.  Let me make a few brief points.

1. Language.  This is absolutely indisputable.  The Sangam texts use
very different (and demonstrably much more archaic) forms and
vocabulary than later texts of the sixth century onward.  Many verb
forms that disappeared by the sixth century can be shown to be part
of an older Dravidian  verb system that is quite consistent with an
age of the second or third century.  The vocabulary is also quite
different from that of later works -- it has much less Sanskrit, and
uses words that are not attested later.  A good source for these
older forms is V. S. Rajam's A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil
Poetry : 150 B.C.-pre-fifth/sixth Century A.D. Philadelphia, Pa.,
American Philosophical Society, 1992.


2. Content.  While the akam (love) poems share some themes with
Prakrit and even Sanskrit (as I have shown), they are still radically
unlike the poems in those languages.  Prakrit has nothing like the
five tiNais, and it is not nearly as carefully worked out, with stock
speakers, stock images for each landscape, ragas (called paNs) for
each, and the like.  There is absolutely nothing like the PuRam
(heroic) poems of the PuRananuru and the Patirruppattu in Prakrit or
Sanskrit.  That is because the Puram poems are mostly written as
imitations of the productions of low-caste bards and drummers.

3. Culture.  The poems show a coherent culture that is utterly
different from the 9th or 10th century.  It is clear, if one reads
the Purananuru, that the poems are directly about events the authors
have heard of.  Many of the poems concern marginal people at the
borders of society.  This is not the case of the Sanskrit or Prakrit
traditions.  Where is there anything like the famous Kalittokai poem
of the lame man pursuing the hunchback woman?

4. History.  The poems name hundreds of poets and kings -- and string
them together in a narrative that is chronologically coherent.  The
names are quite unlike the names of the 9th and 10th century.  There
are many historical facts that have been confirmed by archeological
and other evidence -- some kings who appear on coins, or in datable
contemporary inscriptions (1st-3rd century), Roman coins, description
of trade also found in outside sources, and the like.

5. Literary theory and usage.  The Tolkappiyam describes theories and
systems that are mostly quite foreign to Sanskrit and Prakrit, but
which fit Sangam literature quite well.  Its grammar describes some
forms that are quite old (as shown by the earliest inscriptions), and
even the writing system it describes, with the puLLi, has now been
shown to be as early as the second century or even earlier.  The
Sangam poems do not use anything related to Sanskrit meter, unlike
the poems of later times.  By the ninth and tenth centuries, almost
all literature in Tamil divided its stanzas into four parts, like
Sanskrit and Prakrit (though they never actually borrowed Sanskrit
meters).

6. Hindu, Buddhist, and Jaina elements.  In the Sangam poems, Murugan
has not yet been identified with Kartikeya -- he is a folk spirit
that possesses people and must be propitiated.  There is not much
mention of Visnu or Siva, while it is clear that Jainism and Buddhism
are both present in Tamil Nadu.   Many of the gods are local and do
not appear in later literature.  All of this accords perfectly with
what we know of that period, and does not fit at all the later period.

This is only a cursory response -- it seems almost a waste of time to
go on, as the evidence is so abundant and convincing.  The fact is,
the poems are quite unaware of Prakrit or Sanskrit literature --
though they do know of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (which fits
with their accepted date of 1st-3rd century AD).  They do not
resemble Prakrit or Sanskrit literature enough to be modeled upon
them -- I have argued that both Tamil and Prakrit/Sanskrit use the
same body of conventions, which they got through southern (Tamil and
Maharastri) folk traditions.  But the poems themselves are quite
different and work in very different ways.  Finally, there is a
convincing -- and enormous -- body of coherent and mutually
reinforcing historical, linguistic, cultural, religious and literary
evidence that shows clearly the poems are much earlier than the 9th
or 10th century.  Yes, some 9th or 10th century poets might have
decided to write some "old" literature based on Prakrit and Sanskrit.
But would they have invented hundreds of archaic forms and words that
fit the development of Dravidian?  Would they have eschewed
Prakrit/Sanskrit ideas and metrical patterns?  Would they have
carefully gotten rid of almost all their Sanskrit words and invented
hundreds of words that are not found in the other 9th century
literature?  Would they have made up the names of hundreds of poems
and kings and woven them into a huge corpus that is chronologically
consistent (and fits with inscriptional and numismatic evidence)?
Tiken's argument (if it is correctly reflected in the blurb on the
back cover) just does not make sense.  It is as if one were to claim
the Vedas were written in the 10th century AD by a group of people
who wanted to reflect an idealized past.  Indeed, the Sangam works
contain much more historical information than the Vedas -- it would
be much easier to 'prove' that the Vedas were written in the 10th
century than that the Sangam poems were. What is it about some
European Sanskritists that makes them unwilling to accept that a non
Indo-European people could create a great literature on their own in
South Asia?  The evidence of the non-derivative nature of Sangam
literature is absolutely convincing.  I hope that some will read the
translation of the Purananuru that Heifetz and I recently published.
How these poems could be derived from the Sanskrit/Prakrit tradition
utterly mystifies me -- and I have read most of the kavya literature
(Kalidasa, Magha, Bharavi) in the original.  And I have read the
Prakrit poems with the chaayaa anuvaada.  By the way, the Purananuru
is one of the seminal texts of premodern India -- it is quite as
important as the epics and the Vedas for understanding the
development of South Asian culture.

 From George Hart, Prof. of Tamil and Chair of Tamil Studies, Univ. of
California, Berkeley, USA

Here is the message from the July forum:

Did Tamil Cankam poetry describe a contemporary society, or an
idealized pure Tamil society of the past, as it was imagined in a
time already greatly influenced by North-Indian Sanskrit culture ... ?

The following recent publication is perhaps of interest to readers of
this list because of the challenging thesis on the relative
chronology of early Tamil poetry and Sanskrit Kaavya defended in it.

Title: Kaavya in South India: Old Tamil Cankam Poetry. Author: Herman
Tieken Publ.: Groningen: Egbert Forsten, 2001

 From the back cover: "Old Tamil Cankam poetry consists of eight
anthologies of short poems on love and war, and a treatise on grammar
and poetics. The main part of this corpus has generally been dated to
the first centuries AD and is believed to be the product of a native
Tamil culture. The present study argues that the poems do not
describe a contemporary society but a society from the past or one
not yet affected by North-Indian Sanskrit culture. Consequently the
main argument for the current early dating of Cankam poetry is no
longer valid. Furthermore, on the basis of a study of the historical
setting of the heroic poems and of the role of Tamil as a literary
language in the Cankam corpus, it is argued that the poetic tradition
was developed by the PaaNTiyas in the ninth or tenth century. ... ...
the identification of the various genres of Cankam poetry with
literary types from the Sanskrit Kaavya tradition ... indicates that
in Cankam poetry Tamil has been specifically assigned the role of a
Praakrit. ... "

Jan E.M. Houben Kern Institute P.O. Box 9515 NL-2300 RA Leiden
J.E.M.Houben at let.leidenuniv.nl
--




From zysk at HUM.KU.DK  Mon Aug 27 07:59:57 2001
From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 09:59:57 +0200
Subject: Help with reading
Message-ID: <161227069600.23782.11625963568857232928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear All:

If someone has a clear copy of the Shubdakalpadruma handy, could you
please confirm the following reading:

Vol. 2, page 807, col. 2 (top): a quotation from Ratimanjari:

I cannot make out pada C: caalayed yo ??

Please confirm or correct.

Many thanks,

Ken

--
Kenneth Zysk
Department of Asian Studies
University of Copenhagen  Ph:  +45 3532 8832
Leifsgade 33,5    Fax: +45 3532 8835
DK-2300 Copenhagen S    Denmark  Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk

If mail address fails use: zysk at spam.hum.ku.dk




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Mon Aug 27 15:42:03 2001
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 10:42:03 -0500
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001082715391517@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069635.23782.2603152632529521490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

   For Harappa the site there's a *fantastic* site by Mark Kenoyer at:

http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html

   The Religion Dept. at Rutgers University has a frequently updated site
called the Virtual Religion Index. The web sites listed contain brief
descriptions. The Hinduism section is at:

http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/hindu.html

   The on-line Ramayana at Syracuse Univ. is very nice:

http://webdev.maxwell.syr.edu/southasiacenter/ramayana/storybook/

   One source that I briefly glanced through at a Barnes & Noble book
store a few wees ago is: The Complete Idiot's Guide to Religion Online.
Bruce Lawrence. Macmillan, 1999.

   Prof. Gene Thursby has an excellent set of resources linked to his home
page at Florida:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby

One link leads to the mirror site of the UK based "Shiva Shakti Mandalam"-
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/

   Some other sites, which may or may not be 'academically appropriate':

Hindu Temples Reference center:
www.mandirnet.org

International Soc. of Divine Love
www.isdl.org/index2.html

Tattvavaada
www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html

Vedanta Page
www.sarada.com/


best,
Tim




From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Mon Aug 27 16:14:31 2001
From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 11:14:31 -0500
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001082715391517@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069613.23782.10537973884304962709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Professor Deshpande,

I have a collection of about 100-150 URLs concerning Hinduism and other
South Asian religions.  On each of these, I have a four or five sentence
summary and evaluation.  I compiled the list while working for Encyclopedia
Britannica's Britannica Internet Guide.  You can check the latter at
www.britannica.com for more URLs.  I can send to you the sites I
reviewed.  The files are large so I should send them off-list.  I can also
send them to anyone else who is interested.

In addition, you might ask Fran Pritchett, who I believe has compiled her
own extensive list for use in her teaching.

Christian

At 03:39 PM 8/27/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello Colleagues,
>
>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of
> URLs which would be helpful as a
>source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something
>that would cover from IE
>background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put
>together such a collection of
>URLs?   Best,
>
>                                                Madhav Deshpande




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Aug 27 16:18:37 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 12:18:37 -0400
Subject: SV: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <01C12F1E.02AE8280.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227069611.23782.12664022025809911218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Lars.
                            Madhav

--On Monday, August 27, 2001 5:30 PM +0200 Lars Martin Fosse
<lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:

> Madhav Deshpande [SMTP:mmdesh at UMICH.EDU] skrev 27. august 2001 16:39:
>>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of
> URLs which would be helpful as a
>> source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something
> that would cover from IE
>> background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put
> together such a collection of
>> URLs?   Best,
>
> Hello, Madhav,
>
> here are a few Hindu web sites. In case you want a collection of Hindutva
> sites as well, I have a few of those as well, but I believe the sites
> below are less "political".
>
> http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/veda.html
> http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/image-gallery-vedicdeity.html
> http://www.hindunet.org/home.shtml
> http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5084/agni.html
>
> The following web sites offers critique of Hinduism from a Dalit point of
> view:
>
> http://www.ambedkar.org/
>
> Hope this is of some help.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lars Martin
>
>
> Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo
> Norway
> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
> Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
> Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
> Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
> Email: lmfosse at online.no




From j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM  Mon Aug 27 20:34:39 2001
From: j_e_m_houben at YAHOO.COM (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 13:34:39 -0700
Subject: Vedic Workshop: announcement / reminder
Message-ID: <161227069621.23782.17880973029767246203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Third International Vedic Workshop, "The Vedas:
Texts, Language and Ritual"

will take place in Leiden from Wednesday May 29 to
Sunday June 2, in the year 2002. The workshop is being
organized under the joint auspices of Leiden
University's Kern Institute of Indology, the
Department of Comparative linguistics, and the
International Institute of Asian Studies, with
Professors H.W. Bodewitz and A.M. Lubotsky as
convenors.

The academic program will start on Thursday May 30
with a panel on "The Religion of the Rigveda". The
main part of the workshop, Friday through Sunday, will
consist of a number of brief papers on various topics
concerning Vedic texts, language and ritual.

Paper-proposals in the form of abstracts (up to 500
words) are invited of prospective participants.
Admission will be strictly on the basis of the
abstract. The topic and methodology should suit the
tradition of these Vedic workshops (Harvard 1989,
Kyoto 1999; for an orientation: see the proceedings of
the first International Vedic Workshop, held at
Harvard University in June 1989, published as Inside
the Texts, Beyond the Texts: New Approaches to the
Study of the Vedas, ed. by M. Witzel, 1997).

The organizing committee for the present 3rd IVW:

Professors H.W. Bodewitz and A.M. Lubotsky, Dr. J.E.M.
Houben, Drs. A. Griffiths

contact emailaddresses:
J.E.M.Houben at let.LeidenUniv.nl
A.Griffiths at let.LeidenUniv.nl

http://iias.leidenuniv.nl/iias/agenda/3rdIVW/index.html

Instituut Kern, Universiteit Leiden

Postbus 9515

NL-2300 RA Leiden, the Netherlands






__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Mon Aug 27 18:59:12 2001
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 14:59:12 -0400
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001082715391517@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069615.23782.2956344921093892876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Hello Colleagues,
>
>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection
>of URLs which would be helpful as a
>source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.
>Something that would cover from IE
>background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone
>put together such a collection of
>URLs?   Best,
>
>                                                Madhav Deshpande

Mahadev et al,

I do not work with Hinduism much but I have found the following
useful for Shakta studies:
http://www.hubcom.com/tantric/
Seem reasonably accurate and well maintained.

John C. Huntington




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Mon Aug 27 19:12:43 2001
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 15:12:43 -0400
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001082715391517@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069617.23782.2344747662409680902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Colleagues,

I would welcome a copy of any "off-list files" sent  to Mahadev
Deshpande.  I do not do much with Hinduism but many of my students do.

Thank you

John

>Hello Colleagues,
>
>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection
>of URLs which would be helpful as a
>source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.
>Something that would cover from IE
>background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone
>put together such a collection of
>URLs?   Best,
>
>                                                Madhav Deshpande




From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA  Mon Aug 27 19:20:53 2001
From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela Sandness)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 15:20:53 -0400
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010827110853.00b1cd70@scoop.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069619.23782.9294893657481173169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Christian,
I would appreciate having a set for teaching purposes.

Thanks in advance,
Adela Sandness


Le 8/27/01 12:14 PM, ??Christian Lee Novetzke?? <cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU> a
?crit?:

> Professor Deshpande,
> 
> I have a collection of about 100-150 URLs concerning Hinduism and other
> South Asian religions.  On each of these, I have a four or five sentence
> summary and evaluation.  I compiled the list while working for Encyclopedia
> Britannica's Britannica Internet Guide.  You can check the latter at
> www.britannica.com for more URLs.  I can send to you the sites I
> reviewed.  The files are large so I should send them off-list.  I can also
> send them to anyone else who is interested.
> 
> In addition, you might ask Fran Pritchett, who I believe has compiled her
> own extensive list for use in her teaching.
> 
> Christian
> 
> At 03:39 PM 8/27/01 +0100, you wrote:
>> Hello Colleagues,
>> 
>>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of
>> URLs which would be helpful as a
>> source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something
>> that would cover from IE
>> background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put
>> together such a collection of
>> URLs?   Best,
>> 
>>                                                Madhav Deshpande
> 




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Aug 27 14:39:14 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 15:39:14 +0100
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
Message-ID: <161227069604.23782.5947565118819680987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Colleagues,

     I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of URLs which would be helpful as a
source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something that would cover from IE
background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put together such a collection of
URLs?   Best,

                                               Madhav Deshpande




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Aug 27 15:30:37 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 01 17:30:37 +0200
Subject: SV: URLs for a Hinduism course
Message-ID: <161227069606.23782.15985040063592943951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav Deshpande [SMTP:mmdesh at UMICH.EDU] skrev 27. august 2001 16:39:
>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of
URLs which would be helpful as a
> source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something
that would cover from IE
> background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put
together such a collection of
> URLs?   Best,

Hello, Madhav,

here are a few Hindu web sites. In case you want a collection of Hindutva
sites as well, I have a few of those as well, but I believe the sites below
are less "political".

http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/veda.html
http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/image-gallery-vedicdeity.html
http://www.hindunet.org/home.shtml
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5084/agni.html

The following web sites offers critique of Hinduism from a Dalit point of
view:

http://www.ambedkar.org/

Hope this is of some help.

Best wishes,

Lars Martin


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Tue Aug 28 07:41:13 2001
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 01 09:41:13 +0200
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
Message-ID: <161227069624.23782.9962474749459712410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Madhav,

some links are listed on the Hompage of our Dept.:

http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/links (click first "Religion allg.", then "Hinduismuslinks")

As far as I remember, more such links could be found on Gudrun B?hnemann?s Homepage and on
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#Religionen

Best greetings and wishes
Axel

Madhav Deshpande wrote:

> Hello Colleagues,
>
>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of URLs which would be helpful as a
> source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something that would cover from IE
> background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put together such a collection of
> URLs?   Best,
>
>                                                Madhav Deshpande




From huntington.2 at OSU.EDU  Tue Aug 28 15:43:52 2001
From: huntington.2 at OSU.EDU (John C. Huntington)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 01 11:43:52 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Update_on_Gedrum_B=C3=BChnemann'_site?=
In-Reply-To: <3B8B4B19.4348F65B@urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Message-ID: <161227069629.23782.9040617510650538932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

Axel Michaels, in his response to Mahadev's request for Hindu sites
gave the Goettingen address for Gudrun's site,

It is now at<http://imp.lss.wisc.edu/~gbuhnema/>

John




>Dear Madhav,
>
>some links are listed on the Hompage of our Dept.:
>
>http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/links (click first "Religion
>allg.", then "Hinduismuslinks")
>
>As far as I remember, more such links could be found on Gudrun
>B?hnemann?s Homepage and on
>http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#Religionen
>
>Best greetings and wishes
>Axel
>
>Madhav Deshpande wrote:
>
>>  Hello Colleagues,
>>
>>       I am trying to find a good academically appropriate
>>collection of URLs which would be helpful as a
>>  source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.
>>Something that would cover from IE
>>  background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone
>>put together such a collection of
>>  URLs?   Best,
>>
>>                                                 Madhav Deshpande




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Tue Aug 28 09:51:58 2001
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 01 11:51:58 +0200
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
Message-ID: <161227069627.23782.12678656911909923910.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Correction:

http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND
Click "Links" + "Religion allg." + "Hinduismuslinks"
Sorry
AM

Madhav Deshpande wrote:

> Hello Colleagues,
>
>      I am trying to find a good academically appropriate collection of URLs which would be helpful as a
> source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.  Something that would cover from IE
> background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone put together such a collection of
> URLs?   Best,
>
>                                                Madhav Deshpande




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Tue Aug 28 15:57:37 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 01 11:57:37 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Update_on_Gedrum_B=C3=BChnemann'_site?=
In-Reply-To: <p05100300b7b16b471802@[128.146.41.35]>
Message-ID: <161227069631.23782.12335962471874365091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While I am honored by being called "mahadev", my parents were Vaishnava and
named me 'Madhav'.  Best,


Madhav Deshpande

--On Tuesday, August 28, 2001, 11:43 AM -0400 "John C. Huntington"
<huntington.2 at OSU.EDU> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Axel Michaels, in his response to Mahadev's request for Hindu sites
> gave the Goettingen address for Gudrun's site,
>
> It is now at<http://imp.lss.wisc.edu/~gbuhnema/>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>> Dear Madhav,
>>
>> some links are listed on the Hompage of our Dept.:
>>
>> http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/links (click first "Religion
>> allg.", then "Hinduismuslinks")
>>
>> As far as I remember, more such links could be found on Gudrun
>> B?hnemann?s Homepage and on
>> http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#Religionen
>>
>> Best greetings and wishes
>> Axel
>>
>> Madhav Deshpande wrote:
>>
>>>  Hello Colleagues,
>>>
>>>       I am trying to find a good academically appropriate
>>> collection of URLs which would be helpful as a
>>>  source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.
>>> Something that would cover from IE
>>>  background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone
>>> put together such a collection of
>>>  URLs?   Best,
>>>
>>>                                                 Madhav Deshpande



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Tue Aug 28 18:29:28 2001
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 01 14:29:28 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Update_on_Gedrum_B=C3=BChnemann'_site?=
Message-ID: <161227069633.23782.18239302431994237744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Buhnemann's site has been always quickly accessible from the
Asiatica Association's site of annotated links

http://www.asiatica.org/resources/

best -- enrica

--
Dr. Enrica Garzilli
University of Macerata, Italy
Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Tantric Studies
Journ. of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org
******************************************************

"John C. Huntington" wrote:
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Axel Michaels, in his response to Mahadev's request for Hindu sites
> gave the Goettingen address for Gudrun's site,
>
> It is now at<http://imp.lss.wisc.edu/~gbuhnema/>
>
> John
>
> >Dear Madhav,
> >
> >some links are listed on the Hompage of our Dept.:
> >
> >http://www.sai.uni-heidelberg.de/IND/links (click first "Religion
> >allg.", then "Hinduismuslinks")
> >
> >As far as I remember, more such links could be found on Gudrun
> >B?hnemann?s Homepage and on
> >http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/fiindole.htm#Religionen
> >
> >Best greetings and wishes
> >Axel
> >
> >Madhav Deshpande wrote:
> >
> >>  Hello Colleagues,
> >>
> >>       I am trying to find a good academically appropriate
> >>collection of URLs which would be helpful as a
> >>  source of information on Hinduism for undergraduate students.
> >>Something that would cover from IE
> >>  background and Harappan Civilization to modern times.  Has anyone
> >>put together such a collection of
> >>  URLs?   Best,
> >>
> >>                                                 Madhav Deshpande

***




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Aug 29 10:10:15 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 06:10:15 -0400
Subject: URLs for a Hinduism course
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.33.0108271019590.75190-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069638.23782.13723082664358029249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Tim.  Now I have a good deal of sites to recommend to students.


Madhav

--On Monday, August 27, 2001, 10:42 AM -0500 "Timothy C. Cahill"
<tccahill at LOYNO.EDU> wrote:

> Dear Indologists,
>
>    For Harappa the site there's a *fantastic* site by Mark Kenoyer at:
>
> http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html
>
>    The Religion Dept. at Rutgers University has a frequently updated site
> called the Virtual Religion Index. The web sites listed contain brief
> descriptions. The Hinduism section is at:
>
> http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/hindu.html
>
>    The on-line Ramayana at Syracuse Univ. is very nice:
>
> http://webdev.maxwell.syr.edu/southasiacenter/ramayana/storybook/
>
>    One source that I briefly glanced through at a Barnes & Noble book
> store a few wees ago is: The Complete Idiot's Guide to Religion Online.
> Bruce Lawrence. Macmillan, 1999.
>
>    Prof. Gene Thursby has an excellent set of resources linked to his home
> page at Florida:
>
> http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby
>
> One link leads to the mirror site of the UK based "Shiva Shakti Mandalam"-
> http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/
>
>    Some other sites, which may or may not be 'academically appropriate':
>
> Hindu Temples Reference center:
> www.mandirnet.org
>
> International Soc. of Divine Love
> www.isdl.org/index2.html
>
> Tattvavaada
> www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
>
> Vedanta Page
> www.sarada.com/
>
>
> best,
> Tim



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Wed Aug 29 11:41:45 2001
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 07:41:45 -0400
Subject: Request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.33.0108271019590.75190-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069640.23782.2108517640279223689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Will someone be able to supply me with the e-mail address of
Professor Horst Brinkhaus. Thank you.

Patrick Olivelle




From jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU  Wed Aug 29 13:25:10 2001
From: jpo at UTS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Patrick Olivelle)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 09:25:10 -0400
Subject: Request
In-Reply-To: <v03110702b7b2a55292d2@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227069647.23782.13410777917349741879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to all who replied to my request.

Patrick




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Aug 29 16:00:22 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 12:00:22 -0400
Subject: URLs useful for a Hinduism class
Message-ID: <161227069649.23782.10495130810195486058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

[Thanks to all those who made suggestions for URLs.  Here is a select list
that I put together for my Hinduism class this semester.]
                                            Madhav Deshpande

URLs USEFUL FOR HINDUISM CLASS STUDENTS


http://www.harappa.com
(on Indus Valley Civilization)

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/CONTENTS.HTM
(general info on Ancient India)

http://www.san.beck.org/EC7-Vedas.html
(general website on Vedic literature)

http://www.picatype.com/dig/dc/dc0aa03.htm
(on the Rigvedic river Sarasvati)

http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/00786.html
(on Aryans)

http://folklore.ee/folklore/vol8/veda.htm
(Orality vs. Written Text: Mediaeval Developments in Vedic Ritual
Literature)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Soc/w_ary.html
(women in Hindu Society)

http://www.mnet.fr/aiindex/ch2.html
(communalism and history in India)

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/hindu/holymen
(Sadhus and Swamis, Holy men of India)

http://www.zapme.com/net/class/pr/pr_rel_hindu_history.html
(an excellent general website with essays on various topics)

http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/sahistory.html
(useful site with lots of essays on Coming of Aryans, Vedas etc.)

http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/hindu.html
(good collection of websites relating to Hinduism)

http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/veda.html
(on Vedas)

http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/image-gallery-vedicdeity.html
(Vedic deities)

http://www.hindunet.org/home.shtml
(general website for Hinduism)

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/
(Advaita Vedanta tradition)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5084/agni.html
(on Vedic ritual)

http://www.ambedkar.org/
(offers critique of Hinduism from a Dalit point of
view)

http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/special/ramayana
(Ramayana)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2178/
(Tribute to Hinduism)

http://adaniel.tripod.com/brahmosamaj.htm
(Brahmo Samaj, a reformist Hindu movement in Bengal)

http://www.hindu.dk/english/1a/default.htm
(Daily life and Hinduism)

http://www.rootsworld.com/rw/feature/pune.html
(Ganesh festival in Pune, India)

http://www.Rochester.edu/college/REL/rel249/durga/index.html
(worship of Durga)

http://india.indiagov.org/culture/festival/festival.htm#fest
(Festivals in India)

http://www.rochester.edu/college/REL/rel249/ganesha/
(On Ganesha)

http://www.compulink.co.uk/~ganesh/default.htm
(Ganesh worship)

http://hindusaktha.freeservers.com/
(Goddess worship)

http://www.rochester.edu/college/REL/rel249
(excellent info on Hindu divinities)

http://www.kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/exhib/meetgod/meetgod/meetgod.htm
(meting God:  elements of Hindu devotion)

http://www.members.xoom.it/kundalini/kundalini_eng/index.html
(general Hinduism, Shavism, and Yoga)

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/alvars/nammalvar/preface.html
(Tamil saint Nammalvar)

http://www.si.edu/organiza/museums/freer/puja/lesson_contents.html
(Intro to Hindu Puja ritual)

http://www.rama.avatara.org/
(Rama devotion)

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/sankara-life.html
(biography of the philosopher Shankara)

http://www.home.att.net/~s-prasad/ramanuja.htm
(on the philosopher Ramanuja)

http://www.vedanta.com/vivekananda1.html
(on Vivekananda)

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/alvars/index.html
(Tamil Alvar saints)

http://www.avatara.org/
(info on Avataras of Vishnu)

http://www.parallel.park.org/India/Durga/dp_index.htm#directory
(festival of Durgapuja in Bengal)

http://www.easternreligions.com/hinduism-n.html
(general intro to Hinduism)

http://www.lalwani.demon.co.uk/sonney/wedding.htm
(Hindu wedding rituals)

http://www.vaishnava.com/main.htm
(Intro to Vaishnavism)

http://www.teleport.com/~rravi/wedding/wedding.html
(on Hindu wedding rituals)

http://www2.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/yoga.html
(excellent intro to Yoga)

http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/programs/identity2000.htm
(lots of useful links)

http://www.asia.si.edu/devi/index.htm
(goddess worship in Hinduism)

http://www.goloka.com/index.html
(Vaishnava ideas)

http://www.picatype.com/dig/dig.htm
(good on archaeology; also features Sir William Jones's "Sacontala")

http://cofah.utsa.edu/drinka/pie/pie.html
(good for introducing students to Indo-European comparisons)

http://www.kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/
(great resource on Nepali Buddhist (and Hindu) culture and works of art)

http://religion.rutgers.edu/vri/hindu.html
(lots of useful links)

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/tantra/
(on Tantrik Hinduism)

http://www.mandirnet.org
(on Hindu temples)

http://www.rit.edu/~mrreee/dvaita.html
(on the philosophy of Madhvacharya)




From sbaums at GMX.NET  Wed Aug 29 12:56:09 2001
From: sbaums at GMX.NET (Stefan Baums)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 14:56:09 +0200
Subject: Request
In-Reply-To: <p05010424b7b2852d8bab@[216.62.201.2]>
Message-ID: <161227069642.23782.2144551277946301530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

HBrinkhaus at indo.uni-kiel.de

--
Stefan Baums
Asien-Instituttet
K?benhavns Universitet




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Aug 29 13:58:29 2001
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 01 14:58:29 +0100
Subject: Request
In-Reply-To: <p05010424b7b2852d8bab@[216.62.201.2]>
Message-ID: <161227069645.23782.1241922105711522873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Will someone be able to supply me with the e-mail address of
>Professor Horst Brinkhaus. Thank you.
>
>Patrick Olivelle

 <hbrinkhaus at indo.uni-kiel.de>

Best regards,

G.v.Simson




From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Aug 30 19:08:27 2001
From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 01 14:08:27 -0500
Subject: Films
Message-ID: <161227069651.23782.1683163004505276211.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone help me get copies (PAL or VHS) of these three films?:


Namaca Mahima (1937; Sohrab Modi, producer; Baburao Apte, director)

Patit Pavan (1955; D.K. Films, producers; Vasant Painter, director)

Sant Namdev (1998; Ajay Phutane, producer and director (?))


Thank you.

Christian




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Aug 30 20:12:26 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav M. Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 01 16:12:26 -0400
Subject: Films
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010830140153.00ce3ee0@scoop.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069654.23782.10831222872181582443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Christian,

            In the past, I have purchased VHS versions of several old
Marathi films from Mr. Mohan Ranade's
                                    Neelam Audio & Video, Inc
                                    13003 Trina Drive
                                    Philadelphia, PA 19116-1813
                                    (215) 969-1232.
If the films you are looking for are available for distribution in any
form, Mr. Ranade should be able to help you locate them.

Madhav Deshpande


--On Thursday, August 30, 2001, 2:08 PM -0500 Christian Lee Novetzke
<cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU> wrote:

> Can anyone help me get copies (PAL or VHS) of these three films?:
>
>
> Namaca Mahima (1937; Sohrab Modi, producer; Baburao Apte, director)
>
> Patit Pavan (1955; D.K. Films, producers; Vasant Painter, director)
>
> Sant Namdev (1998; Ajay Phutane, producer and director (?))
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Christian



***************************************************************
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
3070 Frieze Building
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-1285, USA
***************************************************************




From J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK  Fri Aug 31 07:51:02 2001
From: J.L.Brockington at ED.AC.UK (John Brockington)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 01 08:51:02 +0100
Subject: Request
In-Reply-To: <p05010424b7b2852d8bab@[216.62.201.2]>
Message-ID: <161227069656.23782.13433718346814474386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

on 29/8/01 12:41 pm, Patrick Olivelle wrote:

> Will someone be able to supply me with the e-mail address of
> Professor Horst Brinkhaus. Thank you.
>
> Patrick Olivelle
>

hbrinkhaus at indo.uni-kiel.de

John Brockington


Professor J. L. Brockington
Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies
7 Buccleuch Place
Edinburgh   EH8 9LW        U.K.

tel:  +131 650 4174
fax: +131 651 1258