From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  1 09:48:00 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 05:48:00 -0400
Subject: India's UGC to fund jyotissastra
Message-ID: <161227068805.23782.2230894899645524062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

That was a handy example of paranoid onesided journalism from UK. A more
balanced report can be assuredly found at India-today which has one of the
world's best journalistic standards.

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20000807/edits.html   (scroll down)

How many people know that India has a partisan approach to government-church
relationship, in which funds of Hindu temples end up in government coffers
to be spent/misused on public works? (This does not apply to minorities and
Hindu missions which claimed as "not Hindu".) If Hindus were to ask for a
refund, govt would go belly up or it has to legalize country liquor to make
more money. Public projects are invariably started with a pUja and Prime
ministers and presidents visit temples prompting people to become more
religious and contribute more, leading to higher collections. But what is
the return for Hindus? I suppose speaking in inflationary terms, British
govt spent more money on Hindu studies in 19th century than independent
India.

Why doesn't anyone question compassionate conservatism when it is a common
knowledge that most of the money will end up with Church, thanks to
propaganda against other religions? While UGC grants only go towards those
who already believe, compassionate funds will most probably go for
proselytizing or subsidize charitable activities of church so rest of the
money can be used for proselytizing.

Is it that only useful parts of the ancient practices(like grammar) must be
studied and other stuff(like ritual) must be discarded? How to separate out
both, when indra, the object of ritual worship is also the chief grammarian?
Astrology has 10% worth of astronomy. The latter is obsolete after
relativity, but if local scholars want to continue or improve their
tradition what is wrong? If an average US citizen today has no time to look
at the moon who is to blame? Is it that social activities like astrology
must be only taken up after achieving 100% opulence but not before? Is there
is a universal formula for social and economic growth of individual nations?
Do people have to only embrace pop culture and pokemons for a social
diversion? Why not apply this formula to their own battling cousins in
Europe? Why is the journalist still harping on the 5000 year old invasion?
Hasn't he updated himself about AMT replacing AIT?

Best regards,
Bhadraiah
_________________________________________________________________
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From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  1 15:20:03 2001
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 11:20:03 -0400
Subject: Ordering texts from K.S.T.S. series
Message-ID: <161227068811.23782.12053100845762440061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Lubomir,

Many thanks!

Harry

>From: Lubomir Ondracka <ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ>
>Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Re: Ordering texts  from K.S.T.S. series
>Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 13:29:52 METDST
>
> > Also in particular I'm looking for ziva dRSTi no. LIX in the series .
>
>You can get a good reprint of this title (ed. by Madhusudan Kaul) from the
>Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan in New Delhi for Rs 24! It was published by
>Aroma Publishing House (New Delhi) in 1991.
>
>--
>  Lubomir Ondracka
>=============================================
>  Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies
>  Charles University
>  Namesti Jana Palacha 2
>  116 38 Prague 1
>  Czech Republic
>---------------------------------------------
>  e-mail:   ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz
>---------------------------------------------
>  phone:    00420-2-21619356
>=============================================

_________________________________________________________________
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From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  1 15:50:11 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 11:50:11 -0400
Subject: Text layers in the Gita
Message-ID: <161227068817.23782.5135236227566532625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In my opinion, the sequence of chapters in gIta tentatively follows five
fold sAma. The climax of sAma is uthgItha which is in the middle, unlike
Hollywood style where climax is at the end. arjuna viSAda is hiGkAra, karma
yoga is prastAva, vizvarUpa is uthgItha, the boring sessions that follow are
pratihAra (withdrawal symptoms) and mokSa saMnyAsa yoga is nidhana.

Antonio De Nicolas of yogapsychology/indictraditions yahoogroups has a model
that relates the sequence of chapters in gIta to development of faculties of
human brain from baby to adult. He also authored books on Rgveda and
meditations.

Best regards
Bhadraiah
_________________________________________________________________
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From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Sun Apr  1 12:12:12 2001
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 13:12:12 +0100
Subject: India's UGC to fund jyotissastra
Message-ID: <161227068809.23782.3244051581597689274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is getting far away Indology's official focus, but we all know
who started it :-^).

Arun Gupta <suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET> wrote:
>Being a traditional pandit is certainly a legitimate profession,
>and education should be provided for, and the opportunity should be
>used to expose them to modern science as well.

>I believe that establishing such courses and education is not for a
>government body like the University Grants Commission; it is for
>institutions like the trusts that run the Hindu temples.

There is an interesting angle to this: A few years ago, one of the
priests at the Columbus, OH temple told me that visa aplications
under the ``religious officials'' category were being subjected
to closer scrutiny and evidence of proper training being demanded.
This might be of relevance as the cited articles specifically
referred to NRI demand.

I believe that Thirupati does run such courses, and also some
pathasalas asociated with some maths. Perhaps the demand is to
``open up'' the process more.

Also, note that the large temples in South India are under the
direct control of the state govts. Sometimes, it is necessary
to do an end run around them. Unfortunately, Americans, and often,
Western Europeans, don't understand how far government controls
extend into religious affairs in India. This is attributable to
socialist/marxist attitudes from Nehru days, which probably
explains why the reaction gets such bad press. Unfortunately, the
image of India as a democracy with ``basic freedoms'' blunts the
demand for reforms which even the East European contries can
carry out in peace: Would an article of constitution that explicitely
restricts the right to >freely< establish educational institutions
to ``minorities'' be tolerated, let alone defended, anywhere else
in the world?

Bhadraiah Mallampalli <vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Is it that only useful parts of the ancient practices(like grammar)
> must be studied and other stuff(like ritual) must be discarded?

Actually, just how useful is traditional grammar? Such things as
text processing or translation software may need comparative (as
distinct from historical) syntax/morphology, but I think that
studying Sanskrit or IE linguistics is actually inimical to that.
[Compare how the two groups treat aspect.]




From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ  Sun Apr  1 13:29:52 2001
From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 13:29:52 +0000
Subject: Ordering texts  from K.S.T.S. series
In-Reply-To: <F305YNIPukg3nOpj53X0000f37f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068807.23782.12265876360187619250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Also in particular I'm looking for ziva dRSTi no. LIX in the series .

You can get a good reprint of this title (ed. by Madhusudan Kaul) from the
Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan in New Delhi for Rs 24! It was published by
Aroma Publishing House (New Delhi) in 1991.

--
 Lubomir Ondracka
=============================================
 Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies
 Charles University
 Namesti Jana Palacha 2
 116 38 Prague 1
 Czech Republic
---------------------------------------------
 e-mail:   ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz
---------------------------------------------
 phone:    00420-2-21619356
=============================================




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr  1 15:42:19 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 16:42:19 +0100
Subject: India's UGC to fund jyotissastra
In-Reply-To: <F119KBKhwWn5WNW51QW0001d45f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068813.23782.3788143474895261999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote:

> That was a handy example of paranoid onesided journalism from UK.

I don't yet have any point of view on the content of the article I cited,
but if you wish to claim that it is "paranoid", then you *must* give your
reasons.  This is an academic list, and your criticism is not framed as an
academic claim.  Furthermore, the journalism was "from" India, not the UK.
The paper is published in the UK, but the journalist is resident in India:
I have no specific knowledge of his nationality, nor would it be
academically sound to use that information as part of my judgement on his
writing.

Again, I wish to insist upon the fact that the INDOLOGY list is for
academic discussion.  It is not a forum designed for the general
expression of personal opinion.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr  1 15:48:19 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 01 16:48:19 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] Qualifications for posting on this list
Message-ID: <161227068815.23782.10444970324813440494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To all INDOLOGY members

If classical Indian studies are not your field of professional endeavour,
then please reconsider whether this is the right forum for you.

See the guidelines governing INDOLOGY's content, at
        http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indology0.html

If you do not subscribe to the main indological journals, attend
indological conferences, or hold a professional appointment in some aspect
of classical Indian studies, please do not post messages to this list.

I shall be tightening up on this policy.  There are plenty of other
internet forums for the general discussion of Indian matters; and if you
do not find one that meets your needs, it is a simple matter to start a
group of your own at yahoogroups.  This particular INDOLOGY list was
formed for universtiy academics in Indian studies, and non-professionals
should not participate in this discussion list.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Mon Apr  2 16:07:49 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 01 09:07:49 -0700
Subject: the image of Bamian
Message-ID: <161227068827.23782.4054627233460889472.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1256000/1256394.stm

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU  Mon Apr  2 15:11:20 2001
From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 01 11:11:20 -0400
Subject: preta
Message-ID: <161227068823.23782.6199932888716520960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> How is the Sanskrit word, "preta", explained in terms of roots?
> It's a late one, occuring in the epics like MBh.

I have always explained it (to myself and others) as pra+itaH =
prakarshheNa itaH = totally gone!
I don't know if this is officially accepted as a valid derivation.
However, I find it amusing that if one uses a similar root gam instead,
then pra+gataH = advanced,  has a very pleasant meaning!
--
|Avinash Sathaye Phone:(859)277-0130(Home), (859)257-8832(Office) |
Web page: www.msc.uky.edu/sohum




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Mon Apr  2 15:12:41 2001
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 01 11:12:41 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Academic/Senior Academic Librarian - PVL #39367]
Message-ID: <161227068825.23782.4807185532111626888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

University of Wisconsin-Madison General Library System is currently
seeking applicants for the South/Southeast Asia bibliographer position.

Subject: Academic/Senior Academic Librarian - PVL #39367


University of Wisconsin-Madison General Library System
Academic/Senior Academic Librarian
South/Southeast Asian Librarian
PVL #39367

The University of Wisconsin-Madison is seeking applications for the
position of South/Southeast Asian Librarian, a 100% academic staff
appointment.  Benefits include 22 vacation days, sick leave, group
health
and life insurance and state retirement plan.  Minimum full-time salary
is
$38,882.

QUALIFICATIONS - Degree and Area of Specialization

REQUIRED:  MLS or significant library experience and an advanced degree
in
a field of South or Southeast Asian studies.  Strong commitment to
cooperative collection development among peer institutions.  Strong
commitment to collaborating with library staff in a rapidly changing
environment.  Strong commitment to service.  Good oral and written
communication skills.

PREFERRED:  Minimum of 1 year collection development experience.
Knowledge
of South or Southeast Asian book trade, current North American
collection
development and management practices, and teaching and research
trends.  Practical familiarity with the role of the Internet and digital
information in higher education.  Good reading knowledge of one or more
key
target area languages required and reading knowledge of French or Dutch
preferred.

PRINCIPLE DUTIES:  Assessing, selecting, and developing collections of
scholarly print and electronic resources from and about South and
Southeast
Asia.  Collaborating with technical services staff to provide access to
collections.  Assessing user needs and aligning collection policies and
user services with campus programs and priorities.  Designing and
implementing formal instructional programs, including, but not limited
to,
instructing students and faculty in the use of local and remote print
and
electronic resources.  Providing specialized reference services on a
routine basis.  Maintaining close contact with academic programs and
other
U.S. South and Southeast Asian library collections and libraries in the
target areas.

DEADLINE:  Applications must be received by Monday, April 30, 2001.
Send
letter of application, resume, and names, addresses, email addresses and
telephone numbers of three references to:  Sandra Guthrie, Personnel
Director, 365 Memorial Library, 728 State Street, Madison, WI 53706.
For
more information contact Sandra Guthrie at 608/262-8190.

Unless confidentiality is requested in writing, information regarding
the
names of applicants must be released upon request.  Finalists cannot be
guaranteed confidentiality.

UW-Madison is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr  2 14:51:53 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 01 15:51:53 +0100
Subject: preta (Re: demons and possession in old sources)
Message-ID: <161227068819.23782.16158886733159630491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

How is the Sanskrit word, "preta", explained in terms of roots?
It's a late one, occuring in the epics like MBh.

Regards,
N. Ganesan, PhD


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From sani at LING.UNIPI.IT  Mon Apr  2 15:06:10 2001
From: sani at LING.UNIPI.IT (Saverio Sani)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 01 17:06:10 +0200
Subject: preta (Re: demons and possession in old sources)
In-Reply-To: <F10956RFY6mTBb5VYUd0000f683@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068820.23782.12964976429974829639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Preta is pra-ita, pppfrom root i "t o go": there is an article of
Giacomo Ferrari of many yeras ago on SSL: he deals with this terme
and the root pra-i in the sens of to die




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Apr  3 00:02:56 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 01 20:02:56 -0400
Subject: New EJVS: WESTWARD HO! Talageri's Rgveda...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0103311135350.26757-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227068829.23782.8746089999866093966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am glad to announce another  issue of the

ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF VEDIC STUDIES

Vol. 7 (2001), issue 2 (March 31)      (143 k)


This issue deals, in some length, with a recent book aiming at "A
Historical Analysis" of the Rgveda.

Its author also  claims to have "invincibly"  shown
"...that India was the original homeland of the Indo-European family of
languages  ... based primarily on Puranic sources.   [here] ... we examine
in detail the actual data within the Rigveda. ...   far from contradicting
or disproving the theory put forward by us in our earlier  [1993] book,
this detailed analysis of the Rigveda emphatically confirms our theory. "

Let's see!

Read also ( Ed.'s Note) on some interesting Hindutva invectives, threats
and strong-arm tactics  aimed at intimidating legitimate research on the
Vedas ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
EJVS 7-2,    CONTENTS:

* EDITOR'S NOTE

* REVIEW ARTICLE  (Saavadhaanapattra no. 2):

Michael Witzel,

WESTWARD HO !   The Incredible Wanderlust of the Rgvedic Tribes Exposed by
S. Talageri

A Review of:  Shrikant G. Talageri, The Rigveda. A historical analysis.
New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan 2000, pp. xxiv, 520.   ISBN 81-7742-0s10-0.
Rs. 750; http://voi.org/books/rig/


As of today, preliminarily available at:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-2.htm

However, the review will presently be available at our regular website :

http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/

European mirror:   http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ejvs/


========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Tue Apr  3 02:38:05 2001
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 01 03:38:05 +0100
Subject: preta (Re: demons and possession in old sources)
Message-ID: <161227068831.23782.3319239375501601378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 15:51:53 +0100, N. Ganesan <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

>Dear List,
>
>How is the Sanskrit word, "preta", explained in terms of roots?
>It's a late one, occuring in the epics like MBh.
>
>Regards,
>N. Ganesan, PhD

M-W:

says preta < pre < pra +i

where i = to go

pre74ta
Entry  preta

Meaning  mfn. departed , deceased , dead , a dead person S3Br. Gr2S3rS.
MBh. ; m. the spirit of a dead person (esp. before obsequial rites are
performed) , a ghost , an evil being Mn. MBh. &c. (cf. RTL. 241 , 271 MWB.
219).

Entry  pre

Meaning  (%{pra-} 5. %{i}) cl. 2. P. %{prai9ti} (Ved. inf. %{prai9tos}
AitBr.) , to come forth , appear , begin RV. Br2A1rUp. MBh. ; to go on ,
proceed , advance (esp. as a sacrifice) RV. VS. ; to go forwards or
farther , come to , arrive at , enter (acc.) ib. S3Br. Up. MBh. ; to go out
or away , depart (this life , with or without %{asmAl at lokAt} , or %
{itas}) , die Br. Up. Mn. MBh. &c.: Intens. A1. %{pre7yate} , to drive or
go forth (said of Ushas) RV.
---------

Online M-W is not listing the root i even if i* is tried.
Neither does online Capellar's.
What gives?


Regards
P.Chandrasekaran.




From LubinT at WLU.EDU  Tue Apr  3 14:15:36 2001
From: LubinT at WLU.EDU (Timothy Lubin)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 01 10:15:36 -0400
Subject: More MSS in distress...
Message-ID: <161227068837.23782.4363333467408648412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

News today of more uncared-for manuscripts Indian collections:

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php3?id=11717&type=Bengal&theme=A




Timothy Lubin
Assistant Professor (Religions of South Asia)
Department of Religion
23 Newcomb Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450

office: 540-463-8146; fax: 540-463-8498
lubint at wlu.edu
http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint




From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK  Tue Apr  3 11:37:13 2001
From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 01 13:37:13 +0200
Subject: preta (Re: demons and possession in old sources)
Message-ID: <161227068833.23782.16736353704033582064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

P.Chandrasekaran wrote:
> Online M-W is not listing the root i even if i* is tried.
> Neither does online Capellar's.
> What gives?

I sent IITS an e-mail in early January to make them aware of this problem, but they never responded nor have they corrected the error.

Sincerely,
Ulrich T. Kragh
University of Copenhagen




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr  3 13:17:25 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 01 14:17:25 +0100
Subject: preta (Re: demons and possession in old sources)
Message-ID: <161227068835.23782.11670089452764812938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Consider the tamil words
pEy = 1. devil, goblin, fiend; 2. wildness
3. evil; 4. madness, 5. frenzy
pEtu =  bewilderment, confusion, consternation, possession.

The meaning of "pEtu" indicating frenzy, possession etc.
underlies the meaning of "pEy" as well. In fact,
Kannada has "pEtu, hEde" = demon (DED 3635) listed
in the DED entry starting as "pEy".

"pEy/pEtu"(= demon) is camparable with "cEy/cEtu" (= 1. red
and 2. child, calf). "cEtu Ampal" = red  water-lily.
The meaning of "cEtu A" refering to milch cow with a calf
is strengthened with evidence from sangam and post-sangam
textual references.  "cEtA" usually comes along with
dairy products like milk, butter or ghee.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0101&L=indology&P=R16626

Sanskrit "preta" with the meanings of dead person, the spirit
of the dead person appears  related with Kannada-Tamil pEtu (= spirit,
demon, spirit possession). pEtu > (skt.) prEta (Cf. kamuku > kramuka)
with the intrusive insersion of "r" (Note 1).

Kannada beLu/bELu (= tamil vEL), mentioned as in vENugrAma (Skt.),
is absorbed in beLagaum town name. Dr. Palaniappan's post:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9901&L=indology&P=R26227
Like beLu/bELu in beLagaam, -u in pEtu changes to -a in prEta.

prEta < drav. pEtu/pEy is strengthened by the fact that bhUta and
preta worship survives well to this day Dravidian lands.

Dr. L. Werth wrote: <<
... possession in ritual, foremostly by goddesses (like those you refer to)
is an important feature of non-brahmanical religion - linked frequently to
bloody sacrifice
- in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere in India. The people I was with drank the
blood of buffaloes and goats they sacrificed when the goddess was in them.
... I also believe such practices can at least be traced into the Devi
Mahatmya
(as analyzed by David Coburn): the frenzy of the goddess killing the
buffalo demon in myth parallels possession. ...
Now, I was wondering how long back this sort of spirit possession in
South Asia can be traced. >>>

Title searches with strings "Goddess Ellamma" (3-10 feb 2001) and
"Buffalo sacrifice" (14-20 feb 2001) in this list archives
may be interesting, I hope.

The god/demon spirit possession is really ancient. Parpola's recent
paper deals with it elaborately.
"The kaLam worship is at least two millennia old in South India
(cf. Old Tamil poems Akam 22 and KuRuntokai 362) but there is some
evidence to suggest that it is likely to go back even to the
Proto-Dravidian speaking Indus civilization (cf. Parpola 1997:182-186)."
[in p. 184 from A. Parpola, The iconography and cult of KuTTiccAttan,
175-206, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, Harvard UP, 1999).

Regards,
N. Ganesan

Note 1:
There are words from Dravidian loans in Sanskrit with a
hypercorrect insertion of "r". See discussion in Kuiper,
Aryans in the Rgveda, p. 70-71. Examples:
a) pav.la/pava_la > pravAla/pravADa
b) tami_l > dramiDa
c) kamuku > kramuka
d) From tamil words like tONi/toLai/tuNi > Skt. droNa
(vessel, archery master in the MBh).

K. Zvelebil, Tamil literature, E. J. Brill, 1975, p. 53
"It is obvious that the Sanskrit drAviDa, Pali damila, damiLo
and Prakrit dAviDa are all etymologically connected with
"tamizh" [48]

[48] The *r* in tamizh > drAviDa is a hypercorrect insertion,
cf. an analogical case of DED 1033 Ta. Ma. kamuku, Tu. kaGgu,
"areca palm"; Skt. kramu."
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr  3 16:29:17 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 01 17:29:17 +0100
Subject: naRRiNai 310 translated by G. Hart
Message-ID: <161227068839.23782.3940684000402854251.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     The following naRRiNai 310 poem is titled as
"What Her Friend said to the viRali minstrel" (tOzi kURRu).
Also, it could as well be the words of an angry para-strI
towards viRali.

Prof. Hart's translation is based on Pinnathur Narayanacami Ayyar
and U. V. Caminataiyar library editions. The palmleaves mss. consulted
are listed in the books. UVS library edition is based on what
UVS, the grand editor of sangam texts, prepared for publication.

The poem employs kaLiRu 'elephant' in the second line, and
'kan2Ru peRu valci' is in the ninth line. kan2Ru = calf.
Auvai DuraicAmip piLLai's edition has changed the "kan2Ru peRu
valci" to "kaLiRu peRu valci". Perhaps, Auvai was misled by
akanAn2URu 106 where the standard poetic convention of elephant gifts
from kings is present. However, in this naRRiNai poem expressing
anger, kan2Ru (calf) makes sense. "kaLiRu peRu valci" is used in
akanAn2URu 106 which is almost the opposite of naRRiNai 310 in
content. In aka. 106, the prostitutes tease and intend to make the
chief wife of the hero angry. In naRRiNai 310, a scolding poem
there is no place for expressing majesty of the king giving away
elephants and chariots to bards. The calf accentuates the motif of
a large drum covered with leather, but empty inside.

My take is what UVS and Narayanacami Ayyar edited directly from
palm leaves appears to be the correct reading of naRRiNai 310.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

---------------------------------------------
[Begin Hart's email]
Here's my take on the poem.  You can post it if you like.  George

   The green leaves that look like the ears of great bull elephants
   sway on the lotuses pouring out rays as if they were oil lamps,
   and young women who go to get drinking water run away in fear
   when the vaaLai fish jumps out from the deep water in his town --
   listen, foolish woman who want to arrange for him to meet
   his courtesan [lit. woman] tomorrow - you with your useless tongue,
   your stupid, small words -- you stayed with the mothers
   [of those women], and they agreed with you, completely
   clueless -- and at once you said your lovely words, didn?t you,
   mere coverings of emptiness like the huge taNNumai drum
   with its great voice in the hand of your PaaNan who is so low
   they give him a calf to eat. [lit.: who receives a calf].

[Note]
This pretty much follows Narayanasamy Aiyar.  Duraicamippillai makes
three major mistakes, I think.  1. He apparently interprets collalai
kolloo niiyee as ?don?t say.?  2. He takes taayaroTu ozipuTan as ?you
took leave of the mothers (and came here).?  3. He takes the reading
kaLiRu rather than kanRu, which is clearly preferable.

Note that the person addressed is not called a viRali -- that comes
from the commentaries and the later traditions.  As for the uLLurai,
Aiyar says, ?By saying that the vaaLai fish jumps up and glistens,
making the lotus suffer and the girls run away, [the poet suggests]
that the hero goes and stays with a new courtesan brought by you so
that we suffer [like the lotus] and his faithful concubines (kaamak
kizattiyar) run away [like the girls].?

D. does make the interesting suggestion that ?tomorrow? means that the
ViRali must procure a new woman for him every day.  He says, ?By
saying the leaves of the lotus sway [etc.]... there is the suggestion
?the hero is enjoying himself by being with courtesans in the
parattaiyar ceeri, so that we and the people of the house (cuRRam) who
live with the heroine who is the light of the house feel pain (varunta
-- like the lotus) and so that the courtesans who desire the nalam of
his chest and join themselves to it run away in confusion.  Would you
be a go-between, go to him, and stop his coming.??

Neither of these uLLuRais seems completely satisfactory to me.  For
one thing, both have to compare the young women who run away to the
hero?s courtesans, but there?s nothing in the poem to suggest that.
The fish jumping is probably supposed to be compared to the hero --
this is a sexual image that occurs in many poems, and it is
strengthened by the notion of the deep water.  By jumping, the fish
disturbs a normal scene -- the lotuses and the girls getting water --
just as the hero disturbs the tranquility of his family and its
domestic life (drinking water, oil lamp), which becomes agitated and
distressed.  The rest of the poem is pretty straightforward. - George
[End Hart's email]

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From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr  4 02:12:07 2001
From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala)
Date: Tue, 03 Apr 01 22:12:07 -0400
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
Message-ID: <161227068842.23782.15593322356380457604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Recent destruction of the Buddhas at Bamiyan has led many Islamic scholars
to state that such destruction is against Islam. Others have said that it is
consistent with Islam.

We must admire the Taliban for their honesty. They say what they believe,
and they practice what they say.

The Taliban leaders are not crazy. They are graduates of the theological
madarassas of Pakistan, all of them set up by graduates of the distinguished
Darul Uloom Deoband In India. The most influencial of them Darul Uloom
Haqqania was founded by the father of the current leader Maulana
Samiul-Haq's, Moulana Abdul Haq, himself a Deoband graduate.

Taliban do not have a policy of saying one thing for external consumption
and another for internal. They are respected for their steadfast adherence
to Islamic principles.

Rustam
...





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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Apr  4 09:36:47 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 11:36:47 +0200
Subject: SV: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
Message-ID: <161227068844.23782.983668166246730839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rustam Masalewala [SMTP:masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 4. april 2001 04:12:
> We must admire the Taliban for their honesty. They say what they believe,
> and they practice what they say.

I am sure your admiration for the Taliban is very commendable, but in case
you want to dig more deeply into their values and politics, may I suggest
the following book:

Ahmed Rashid: Taliban. Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia.
I. B. Tauris & Co., 2000.

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Apr  4 18:49:27 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 11:49:27 -0700
Subject: Skt. preta, drav. pEtu, and vaitaraNi
In-Reply-To: <001101c0bd25$9ea18900$c530893e@stephen>
Message-ID: <161227068856.23782.15567526848222226284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Also, of interest:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004&L=indology&P=R12922


--- Stephen Hodge <s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK> wrote:
> N. Ganesan wrote:
>
> > Tamil-Kannada words pEy/pEtu ('spirit of the dead') are rooted
> > in sounds like bE/pE (shouting when people get fear or become
> > afraid).
>
> Nice to see you are back !
> It may be completely coincidental and unconnected but do you know of
> the mantra syllable "pha.t" used in Buddhist tantra,  primarily to
> dispel internal or external negativity ?  Curiously, the Tibetans,
> following Tibetan pronunciation, say it as "phey".
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge


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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Apr  4 19:01:44 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 12:01:44 -0700
Subject: Wanderlust of the RV Tribes
Message-ID: <161227068858.23782.14876562241934957727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't know how many people have looked yet at Michael Witzel's long and
devastating analysis of S. Talageri's _The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis_
(2000). ("Westward Ho! The Incredible Wanderlust of the Rgvedic Tribes,
Exposed by S. Talageri," by Michael Witzel.) It shouldn't be overlooked.

Talageri's book has been held up by the usual parties (e.g., K. Elst, who
is described in Talageri's book as a researcher "whose brilliant writings
have contributed to, or aided, the Indian cause") as groundbreaking,
revolutionary, based on a fresh look at the old texts, etc.
Witzel shows that Talageri's new book is closely linked to earlier
propaganda pieces like Talageri's _The Aryan Invasion Theory and Indian
Nationalism_ -- a book high on the BJP's recommended booklist (see the
"Book Shop/Publications" link under http://www.bjp.org/organ.htm ).

Witzel shows that Talageri's new book on the RV is as methodologically
unsound as the endless stream of nationalistic apologetics put out by
Rajaram, Frawley, Danino, Elst, etc. Talageri's historical fictions are
based wholly on late sources like the Anukramanis & Puranas, and not
(as Talageri claims) on a reading of Old Vedic sources. (Indeed, Witzel
shows that Talageri's "invincible" study depends totally on Griffith's
Victorian RV translation!)

See the preliminary draft of Witzel's paper at
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-2.htm

For a Talageri sampler, see my chart (also cited in Michael's piece) of
Talageri's chronological absurdities at
http://www.safarmer.com/pico/talageri.html . Here we find, predictably,
that the RV took over 2,000 years to compose, and that its earliest strata
are the oldest texts on the planet.




From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Apr  4 19:07:05 2001
From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 12:07:05 -0700
Subject: Vedic Middle-Indicisms
In-Reply-To: <3ACB6F7B.FCCE33AE@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227068860.23782.7542320149857085116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List-members,

Does anyone know of literature after the Emeneau article discussing
Middle-Indicisms in the Veda?

Thanks,
chandan narayan





chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu
                   || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan

"Don't blame me...I voted for Kodos."




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Apr  4 19:07:39 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 12:07:39 -0700
Subject: Skt. preta, drav. pEtu, and vaitaraNi
In-Reply-To: <001101c0bd25$9ea18900$c530893e@stephen>
Message-ID: <161227068862.23782.1889969766429594680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From
 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004&L=indology&P=R12922

"the land, as it seems, was not clean enough for them. It is true, Arjuna
himself continued his travel and, having reached the Ocean coast, even married
the daughter of a local king (CitravAhana of MaNalUra) - but this episode may
be
interpreted as reflecting the leading role of non-brahminical elements
(kSatriyas) in establishing cultural and political contacts with Southern
regions."

Indologists may know that Tamil word for "sand" is maNal. maNalUr
is the village on the banks of (vaitaraNi?) river. Hindu tradition
is to do tarpaNa on a river bank. After this, cows are gifted to brahmins
even today. Look at the riverbanks in towns like KoDumuDi (on Kaveri),
Bhavani (on vAni) and Perur (on Noyyal/Kanchi).Monier-Williams
entry on vaitaraNi " ...
 a cow (given to Bra1hmans) that transports a dead man over that river".

Is the concept of golokam adjascent to svarga-lokam formed so that
these donated cows need to have a residence after depositing spirits
in the heaven? This looks the reason to donate cows to the priests.

Regards,
SM





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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr  4 13:00:19 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 14:00:19 +0100
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
In-Reply-To: <F142IEAOeIiGXix4A2D0000012e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068846.23782.2200447228601761592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While it is no doubt important, this is not an appropriate topic for
discussion on the INDOLOGY list.

Please desist.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE  Wed Apr  4 12:54:40 2001
From: lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Lukas Werth)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 14:54:40 +0200
Subject: SV: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
In-Reply-To: <01C0BCFB.AC2CBC40.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227068848.23782.7714781642726274892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 11:36 04.04.01 +0200, you wrote:
>Rustam Masalewala [SMTP:masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 4. april 2001 04:12:
>> We must admire the Taliban for their honesty. They say what they believe,
>> and they practice what they say.
>
>I am sure your admiration for the Taliban is very commendable, but in case
>you want to dig more deeply into their values and politics, may I suggest
>the following book:
>
>Ahmed Rashid: Taliban. Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia.
>I. B. Tauris & Co., 2000.
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
>Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
>Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
>0674 Oslo
>Norway
>Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
>Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
>Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
>Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
>Email: lmfosse at online.no
>


I have not read Rashid's book, but I think I have some idea of the argument
suggested in the title. There has long been a hypothesis that the Taliban
were ultimately sponsored by the USA because of an interest to get
Afghanistan pacified, and be eventually able to build an oil pipeline
through Afghanistan from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean.

While there may have been some ideas like this, I cannot believe this is
more than a small part of the story. In particular, I cannot believe that
the USA were so stupid in 1994, a heyday of anti-Islamic sentiments, to
help to set up Deoband madrassas, the one Islamic school in South Asia to
be known to harbour strong anti-Western ideas.

To regard the Taliban as an American mercinary troup (an expression I have
heard) misses out all the internal dynamics of the system. And, while the
movement cetainly was born in Pakistan, this does also not mean that they
are somehow foreign controlled (though their involvement in the hijacking
of an Indian aeroplane a few (2?) years back indicates relations to
military circles in Pakistan, as seems only natural, given their origin).

Without claiming to have any special knowledge about the Taliban and
Afghanistan, I would like to make a few points I have heard/read, and which
seem to make some sense to me: the Taliban are all ethnically Pathan, and
some dynamics of their movement are best explained by this fact. For
instance, leadership should be quite dynamic, and leaders are expected to
demonstrate their capacity to share followers around them, guide, help
them, and give them a feeling of belonging to (identity), or otherwise they
are likely to be superseded by other aspiring leaders. There is likely to
be, in a nutshell, a constant internal competition about leadership.
Second, for the rurally domnated Pathan, urban culture has long been the
abode of the evil/satan, and most restrictions and tyrannies they imposed
in the cities must be seen as an effort to drive the evil out of them.
Naturally, the first point aggravates the second one, because leaders (on
any level, probably) try to show their competence against their competitors
by ever being more enthusiastic in their purging efforts.
Third, the education of the Taliban is precarious: most do not even seem to
have/claim great competence in religious studies, but rather impose their
crude and rural ideas which get distilled through internal competition.

Having said this, let me emphasize that while I find the recent destruction
(and more to come, most likely) sad and regretful, I found the public
reaction somewhat pharisean. Afghanistan has been a clear victim of the
cold war; it suffered from its very worst consequences. Nobody, however,
seemed to bother much of what happened later to this tortured country (very
much in difference to other parts of the world, witness Bosnia). It was
only found convenient to drop a rocket on it when Clinton wanted to
distract the public from his own sexual proclivities. The Taliban are,
Pakistani madrasas notwithstanding, very much the result of the lack of
everything except weapons. Given this state of affairs, we should not be
surprised if they sometimes behave somewhat oddly, and if we want to save
Afghanistan to the world, we should do more than just cry out when they
destroy old statues, regrettable as this may be.

Lukas Werth




From tyag at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Apr  4 19:49:43 2001
From: tyag at EARTHLINK.NET (Swami Tyagananda)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 15:49:43 -0400
Subject: Smarta/Advaita connection
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010320100611.00934dd0@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <161227068864.23782.5406038844962954126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

RISA-community, greetings! A friend and student of mine, Rakesh
Vaidyanathan (rvaidyan at wharton.upenn.edu) is working on a thesis showing
the Smarta/Advaita linkage in the Indian tradition. He requested me for any
possible references to (1) the connection between Smarta and Advaita
traditions and (2) family history of neo-Hindu leaders such as Aurobindo,
Rabindranath Tagore et al.
         I shall be grateful for any possible clues--which could either
appear on this list or sent directly to Rakesh. Many thanks.

Swami Tyagananda
Vedanta Society
Boston




From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA  Wed Apr  4 20:40:00 2001
From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 16:40:00 -0400
Subject: MIT to make nearly all course materials available free on the              World Wide Web
Message-ID: <161227068868.23782.5829386073449058461.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ramesh Doraiswamy 
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 03:15 PM
Subject: MIT to make nearly all course materials 
         available free on the World Wide Web

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/nr/2001/ocw.html




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr  4 16:02:23 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 17:02:23 +0100
Subject: Skt. preta, drav. pEtu, and vaitaraNi
Message-ID: <161227068850.23782.15258047720089262392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A linguist friend, (not in the list) educated me:
<<<
        The Sanskrit prefix pra- is most certainly Indo-European,
cf. Greek pro-, Latin pro-, Lithuanian pra-, Old Church Slavonic
pro-, etc. meaning 'forth, forward, in front'. The Prakrit
developments link Sanskrit preta- literally 'gone forth' = 'deceased,
dead' directly with the Dravidian words (the meaning of pEy, 'devil',
from 'malevolent ghost = spirit of the dead'). Note such semantic
parallels as de-parted, literally 'gone off, away' = 'deceased, dead',
Latin ob-itus, literally, 'gone to(wards) or gone away' = 'deceased,
dead', whence English obituary etc.: here Latin itus 'gone' = Sanskrit
itaH 'gone', both from the Proto-Indo-European praeterite participle
*i-to-s.
>>>

Prof. Witzel's paper 'Substrates in OIA', "pra" was given as
an IVC word. Then, I thought skt. pra is connected with tamil
peru.

Tamil-Kannada words pEy/pEtu ('spirit of the dead') are rooted
in sounds like bE/pE (shouting when people get fear or become
afraid).

The sanskrit word, prEta (from IE 'ita'=gone) was likely to have
been coined to sound like Dravidian pEtu/pEy. [Compare
tamil verbs paku, vaku and skt. word bhakti:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9903&L=indology&P=R14768
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9904&L=indology&P=R2851
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9904&L=indology&P=R3267
].

Do we know pEtu 'spirit' was known in the North India.
Look at the name, vaitaraNi.

M-W dictionary:
vaitaraNI
f. N. of the Hindu1 Styx i.e. the river that flows between earth and
the lower regions or abode of departed spirits presided over by Yama
(it is described as rushing with great impetuosity , hot , fetid , and
filled with blood , hair and bones see RTL. 290 , 570) MBh. Pur. &c. ;
a cow (given to Bra1hmans) that transports a dead man over that river
Hcat. ; N. of a sacred river in Kalin3ga or Orissa (usually called
Baitaran2i1) MBh. Hariv. R. Pur. ; of a division of the lower regions
MW. ; of the mother of the Ra1kshasas L.

In dravidian, pEtaraN = pEtu + araN = "demon" + araN
Online Tamil Lexicon:
araN * 1. defence, four kinds, viz.,; 2. fortress, castle; 3. forest,
as a  defence; 4. spear
araN 01 1. compound wall, as of a temple or fort; 2. armour;
3. sandals, as protecting feet
araN 02 fear.

We know well about forts (tamil kOTTai, hindi. kOT) used by Dravidians
in the Indus and post-Indus eras. So many villages where post-Indus
culture are found archaeologically end in placenames with -kOT. (I
will give the list oneday). Dravidians in the North India in ancient
times worshipped Durga as kOTAvi (= tamil koRRavai = Durga).
koRRavai/kottavai -> koTAvi can be compared with
kARRavarAyan/kAttavarAyan (famous village deity in Tamilnadu)
with his equivalent kATamarAju of Telugu country.

So, pEtaraN in drav. means "fort of spirit world".
Like drav. vEL/vELir (the prefix in bELUru, beLagAm in KarnATaka)
clan-place changing to "vailasthaana" in Rgveda, pEtaraN -> skt.
vaitaraNi, (For p-/v- change, compare paNa and vaNiya/vaNij from
drav. paNNutal 'to make, to trade').

In Tamil sangam poetry, paRayar drummers officiating in funerals,
barbers, washermen, pANar bards, vELAr potters were the important,
indigenous priests before vedic brahmins took hold as the topmost
varNa. The varNa scheme was introduced from the North into the South.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R1548
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R1923
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R3781

In Tamil sangam poetry, terms like pArppAr and antaNar do not
necessarily mean brahmins of the topmost varNa chanting vedas. In
many instances pArppAr just means the "worshippers/eulogizers
/singers". Also, antaNar ("coolers" < taN- 'cool') could mean those
who pacify/cool spirits (of the dead). The phrase, "pulam puri
antaNar" means "the cool priests chanting/doing magic spells".

G. Hart's translation of naRRiNai 310 (3-Apr-2001 posting) refers to
pANar bards getting cattle. pANar visting chiefs after they emerge
victoriuos in cattle raid and would lead to cow-gifts naturally. In
a puRam poem, unfortunately the bards arrive after the chieftain is
dead even though he won a sizeable cattle herd. Donating cattle is not
much recorded because donating a cow is too pedestrian.
What the exagerated expressions in sangam poems says is about
donating away large quantities of elephants, chariots and horses.
Royal majesty indicators! In CilappatikAram, pANar bards awarded with
cattle gifts is beautifully expressed:
     iLa mA eyiRRi ivai kAN nin2 aiyar
     talai nALai vETTattut tanta nal An2 niraikaL
     kollan2 tuTiyan2 koLai puNar cIr valla
     nal yAzp pANar tam mun2Ril niRaintan2a  - Cilambu 12:14:1-4

antaNar priests being donated with cattle herds by Chola kings in an
ancient poem (tol. poruL. 90. nac.), and the real, live cows covered
with gold (or gold-like) ornaments is told in PeruGkatai 1:39:64-69
(=bRhatkathA) epic.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0101&L=indology&P=R14712
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0101&L=indology&P=R16626

The Dravidian custom of donating cattle to the native priests during
auspicious or ancestor-worship ritual occasions was converted into
the HiraNyagarbha ceremony of gifting pure gold cows laying a golden
egg (an RV theme). From Maharashtra down South, when Kings chose
Cakravartin model (B. Stein), huge quantities of gold was spent.
Heavy polemical criticism of this practice followed in buddhist epic
Manimekalai (tamil) and Basavapuranamu (telugu).

In Sum,
pEtaraN in drav. would mean "fort of the spirits", vaitaraNI is the
river to reach that yamaloka/pEtaraN. The cows donated to (funerary)
priests facilitated an easy reaching of spirits with less hazards.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




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From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Wed Apr  4 16:27:53 2001
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 17:27:53 +0100
Subject: Skt. preta, drav. pEtu, and vaitaraNi
Message-ID: <161227068852.23782.11158866442629104223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N. Ganesan wrote:

> Tamil-Kannada words pEy/pEtu ('spirit of the dead') are rooted
> in sounds like bE/pE (shouting when people get fear or become
> afraid).

Nice to see you are back !
It may be completely coincidental and unconnected but do you know of
the mantra syllable "pha.t" used in Buddhist tantra,  primarily to
dispel internal or external negativity ?  Curiously, the Tibetans,
following Tibetan pronunciation, say it as "phey".

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From juftina at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr  4 17:20:42 2001
From: juftina at HOTMAIL.COM (tina debruyn)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 18:20:42 +0100
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
Message-ID: <161227068854.23782.3159687976950577851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't understand why it is allowed then to sell the pieces of the
destructed Buddhas as antiquities.
Tina


>From: Rustam Masalewala <masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
>Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 22:12:07 -0400
>
>Recent destruction of the Buddhas at Bamiyan has led many Islamic scholars
>to state that such destruction is against Islam. Others have said that it
>is
>consistent with Islam.
>
>We must admire the Taliban for their honesty. They say what they believe,
>and they practice what they say.
>
>The Taliban leaders are not crazy. They are graduates of the theological
>madarassas of Pakistan, all of them set up by graduates of the
>distinguished
>Darul Uloom Deoband In India. The most influencial of them Darul Uloom
>Haqqania was founded by the father of the current leader Maulana
>Samiul-Haq's, Moulana Abdul Haq, himself a Deoband graduate.
>
>Taliban do not have a policy of saying one thing for external consumption
>and another for internal. They are respected for their steadfast adherence
>to Islamic principles.
>
>Rustam
>...
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr  4 20:13:01 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 01 21:13:01 +0100
Subject: vaitaraNi (2)
Message-ID: <161227068866.23782.8939504929871030164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0004&L=indology&P=R13070

"the land, as it seems, was not clean enough for them. It is true,
Arjuna himself continued his travel and, having reached the Ocean
coast, even married the daughter of a local king (CitravAhana of
MaNalUra) - but this episode may be interpreted as reflecting the
leading role of non-brahminical elements (kSatriyas) in establishing
cultural and political contacts with Southern regions."

Indologists may know that Tamil word for "sand" is maNal. maNalUr
is the village on the banks of (vaitaraNi?) river. Hindu tradition
is to do tarpaNa on a river bank. After this, cows are gifted to
brahmins  even today. Look at the riverbanks in towns like KoDumuDi
(on Kaveri), Bhavani (on vAni) and Perur (on Noyyal/Kanchi).

Monier-Williams
entry on vaitaraNi " ...
  a cow (given to Bra1hmans) that transports a dead man over that river".

Is the concept of golokam adjascent to svarga-lokam formed so that
these donated cows need to have a residence after depositing spirits
in the heaven? This looks the reason to donate cows to the priests.


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From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Thu Apr  5 12:19:28 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 05:19:28 -0700
Subject: Re. The artful destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha
Message-ID: <161227068872.23782.9755984295790523480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Tina Debruyn writes: <<I don't understand why it is allowed then to sell
the pieces of the destructed Buddhas...>>

Perhaps "expunged Buddhist graffiti" is more at it? Or, what does one
actually find more aesthetically pleasing - the upper or lower image?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1256000/1256394.stm

Ven. Tantra







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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Apr  5 13:52:46 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 06:52:46 -0700
Subject: Wanderlust of the IETribes !!
In-Reply-To: <F36BOh8s4KWiGtXsL1c0000331b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068879.23782.10974371833722667909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Subrahmanya S." <subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Both on Pg. 114 of Erdosy: 1995
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/446
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/452

I tried reading these egroup messages, but no success.
Because there are so many egroups nowadays, it's hard to be
a member of every one of them. Would the list owner open
it up for the public? Like Indology list or
Agathiyar list discussing Tamil matters
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/agathiyar/messages

If indictraditions and indiancivilization egroups become public,
it may attract even more populace.

Regards,
SM


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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  5 11:59:54 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 06:59:54 -0500
Subject: Wanderlust of the IETribes !!
Message-ID: <161227068870.23782.9629275890219377710.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't know how many people have looked yet at Shrikant Talageri's long and
devastating analysis of Michael Witzel's _Rigvedic: poets, chieftians andn
politics. (http://www.voi.org/books/rig/ch9.htm)
It shouldn't be overlooked.

Wittzels's articles has been held up by the usual euro-centric parties as
groundbreaking,revolutionary, based on a fresh look at the old texts, etc.

Witzels's admits that his article is closely linked to earlier
19th century orientalists like Oldenberg

Talageri shows that Witzels's views on the RV is as methodologically
unsound as the endless stream of trash put out by
missionaries and colonialists. Witzels's historical fictions are
based wholly on 19th century theories.
(Indeed, Talageri shows that Witzels's  study depends even on manufacturing
of Piltdown textual data and reminiscenses of the Urals !!).

See an expose of Witzels'Piltdown text'at
(http://voi.org/vishal_agarwal/AMT.html).

Witzel's incoherent writings in other papers have also been noticed
(http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/uttamapatala.html)

For a sampler of euro-supremacist writing:

1. "Something of this fear of the horse and of the thundering chariot, the
"tank" of the 2nd millennium B.C. is transparent in the famous horse
'Dadhikra' of the Puru king Trasadasya ("Tremble enemy"" in RV 4.38.8)
[.....]

2. "The first appearance of thundering chariots must have stricken the local
population with teror similar to that experienced by the Aztecs and the
Incas upon the arrival of the oron-clad, horse riding Spaniards."

Both on Pg. 114 of Erdosy: 1995
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/446
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/452

Regards,
Subrahmanya


http://www.voi.org/books/rig/ch9.htm
http://voi.org/vishal_agarwal/AMT.html
http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/uttamapatala.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/446
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivilization/message/452


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From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr  5 12:44:17 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 07:44:17 -0500
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
Message-ID: <161227068874.23782.3511081993346600355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Surely there was iconoclasm in "classical and medieval India" why
is it not a appropriate topic ?

Is this another example of covering up of any
topic that is uncomfortable to people studying the "Hindoos" ?
It seems that "Hindoos" can be only studied and put under a
microscope subject to guidelines set by Europeans. Data on Hindoos
has to be marshalled only to fit preconceived results.

Uncomfortable historical events of the "Hindoos" can be easily
censored and swept under.

It is probably time for the natives to study the
"indology scholars" themselves to find out their motives.

But then of course, the list owner has complete rights to
censor and select the topic.

Then, however, the claim to openminded scholarship is not valid.

Regards,
Subrahmanya

>

>While it is no doubt important, this is not an appropriate topic for
>discussion on the INDOLOGY list.
>


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From rpeck at NECA.COM  Thu Apr  5 13:07:05 2001
From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 09:07:05 -0400
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
Message-ID: <161227068876.23782.13213659877526810911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya wrote of euro-supremacist writing of the OIT.
:
Cannot the OIT concept be supported by the spread out of India of very
fundamental religious definitions and practices? Namely, the ?presence? of
an ?inner power? within the ?heart? that can be ?released? producing ?heaven
?.
The modern interpretation of those terms has varied considerably in India as
well as in the West when the interpretations were obviously shifted to point
to an external controlling spirit from a heaven above and ?heart? became
?cardia? instead of ?center?. (Christian influence?)

Regards,
Bob Peck rpeck at neca.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Apr  5 20:49:20 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 16:49:20 -0400
Subject: Wanderlust (pt. 2)
Message-ID: <161227068885.23782.10565910701334883204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(Contd.)

>(Indeed, Talageri shows that Witzels's  study depends even on manufacturing
>of Piltdown textual data and reminiscenses of the Urals !!).

Again, Subrahmanya has not read the text carefully but repeats others' web
chatter.
In my 1995 paper I only quoted the opinion of a (non-Vedic) scholar, with a
lot of qualifications, -- clearly indicating that I did *not* believe in
"reminiscences of the Urals"in the RV. Misrepresentation and libel.

>See an expose of Witzels'Piltdown text'at
>(http://voi.org/vishal_agarwal/AMT.html).

I have repeatedly dealt with that dead horse, also in INDOLOGY. The matter
is, in short, a mistranslation (it should have been a paraphrase), based on
misplacing one parenthesis.
How happy people are to have found one wrong translation in nearly 30 years
of publications!

(Incidentally, the Baudh. SrautaSutra  passage in question, late as it is,
cannot prove or disprove an "Aryan immigration" -- and that was not my aim
either. I used it as additional evidence. The matter is complex and can be
found discussed, in margine,  in the forthcoming issue of EJVS, 7-3,
footnotes 44-46.)

>Witzel's incoherent writings in other papers have also been noticed
>(http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/uttamapatala.html)

V. Agarwal (also well known to this list, see Archives) is of course
exactly the person from whom to expect an expert opinion. Amusingly, for
his present *long* discussion of my *2pp.* "brief communication" (not
"writings"!), he says that he has spent months and that he has taken the
help of several unspecified persons.

The result of this arduous search for faults is not encouraging:  Agarwal
has not done his homework well enough either. I briefly looked into the
matter during my stay at the College de France in January. Evidence is
already  on my server but I will publish a  note on this only when I get
time again, which is not likely to be before the early Summer. Again: there
are other, more urgent things to do rather than to engage in this sort of
futile tertiary excercises.

>For a sampler of euro-supremacist writing:
>
>1. "Something of this fear of the horse and of the thundering chariot, the
>"tank" of the 2nd millennium B.C. is transparent in the famous horse
>'Dadhikra' of the Puru king Trasadasya ("Tremble enemy"" in RV 4.38.8)
>[.....]
>
>2. "The first appearance of thundering chariots must have stricken the local
>population with teror similar to that experienced by the Aztecs and the
>Incas upon the arrival of the oron-clad, horse riding Spaniards."
>

Pray, what is "Euro- " and what is "supremacist" in these 2 sentences?
Only, that their author  happens to be a European.  That does not make him
supremacist or "invaderistic" (remember?)

These two sentences  deal with South Asian, originally "Afghani" (or at
best, "Bactrian") people (not "Euro-s") of the 2nd mill. BCE who used quick
horse-drawn chariots in sport and war.

Again, SuB. has not done his homework. I suggest (a) that he read HISMSELF
whom I intend to be on those chariots and (b) he read some account of the
battles of the 2nd millennium BCE Egyptians, Hittites and Hyskos or even of
Alexander and Poros. Or even Cesar in Britain.

The quick, light-weight chariot was of course used in battle (on even
ground!). And it is effictive because of its speed. Also, no one wants to
be run over by the horses or even the leigh-weight, but 2-man chariot.  I
invited SuB. et al.  long ago to stand still in front of an advancing line
of mounted police.  People did not even understand the reference then.
Maybe they never wanted to get close to that / a lathi charge...

SuB.  still seems to be fascinated by his/their invented "tanks thundering
down the Khyber" which, boringly : once again, is a line that I never
printed

People like SuB should move on and learn to stomach that someone can
criticize and deconstruct their new hero, Talageri (who has been mute so
far). No factual criticism of my deconstruction by anybody so far, just
the usual uninformed  but heavily opinionated web chatter, --  such as the
one above....

Onward, saffron soldiers! Chatter on!

MW>




========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA  Thu Apr  5 21:12:09 2001
From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 17:12:09 -0400
Subject: Samudra Manthan
Message-ID: <161227068895.23782.8775636444409084759.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends:

The Harivamsa give a very different and epistemological interpreation of
Samudra Manthan. Would any one know the exact interpreation and the
reference?

Many thanks.

Harsha Dehejia




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Apr  5 16:34:51 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 17:34:51 +0100
Subject: Librarian position (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227068881.23782.18208512762011534220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:35:15 -0600
From: Gudrun Buhnemann <gbuhnema at facstaff.wisc.edu>

----
>University of Wisconsin-Madison General Library System
>Academic/Senior Academic Librarian
>South/Southeast Asian Librarian
>PVL #39367
>
>The University of Wisconsin-Madison is seeking applications for the
>position of South/Southeast Asian Librarian, a 100% academic staff
>appointment.  Benefits include 22 vacation days, sick leave, group
>health
>and life insurance and state retirement plan.  Minimum full-time salary

>is
>$38,882.
>
>QUALIFICATIONS - Degree and Area of Specialization
>
>REQUIRED:  MLS or significant library experience and an advanced degree

>in
>a field of South or Southeast Asian studies.  Strong commitment to
>cooperative collection development among peer institutions.  Strong
>commitment to collaborating with library staff in a rapidly changing
>environment.  Strong commitment to service.  Good oral and written
>communication skills.
>
>PREFERRED:  Minimum of 1 year collection development experience.
>Knowledge
>of South or Southeast Asian book trade, current North American
>collection
>development and management practices, and teaching and research
>trends.  Practical familiarity with the role of the Internet and
digital
>information in higher education.  Good reading knowledge of one or more

>key
>target area languages required and reading knowledge of French or Dutch

>preferred.
>
>PRINCIPLE DUTIES:  Assessing, selecting, and developing collections of
>scholarly print and electronic resources from and about South and
>Southeast
>Asia.  Collaborating with technical services staff to provide access to

>collections.  Assessing user needs and aligning collection policies and

>user services with campus programs and priorities.  Designing and
>implementing formal instructional programs, including, but not limited
>to,
>instructing students and faculty in the use of local and remote print
>and
>electronic resources.  Providing specialized reference services on a
>routine basis.  Maintaining close contact with academic programs and
>other
>U.S. South and Southeast Asian library collections and libraries in the

>target areas.
>
>DEADLINE:  Applications must be received by Monday, April 30, 2001.
>Send
>letter of application, resume, and names, addresses, email addresses
and
>telephone numbers of three references to:  Sandra Guthrie, Personnel
>Director, 365 Memorial Library, 728 State Street, Madison, WI 53706.
>For
>more information contact Sandra Guthrie at 608/262-8190.
>
>Unless confidentiality is requested in writing, information regarding
>the
>names of applicants must be released upon request.  Finalists cannot be

>guaranteed confidentiality.
>
>UW-Madison is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer




From zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE  Thu Apr  5 15:48:22 2001
From: zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 17:48:22 +0200
Subject: Wanderlust of the IETribes !!
In-Reply-To: <F36BOh8s4KWiGtXsL1c0000331b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068883.23782.2234707372274665960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A few questions for S. Subrahmanya:

Am Don, 05 Apr 2001 schrieb Subrahmanya S.:

> I don't know how many people have looked yet at Shrikant Talageri's long and
> devastating analysis of Michael Witzel's _Rigvedic: poets, chieftians andn
> politics. (http://www.voi.org/books/rig/ch9.htm)
> It shouldn't be overlooked.

It _should be_ overlooked, if only because Talageri's complaint that
Witzel has not read him is now, after Witzel's last review, evidently
pointless - if it were not already so before.

Perhaps you can show us, on the basis of Witzel's recent text, why we
should dismiss his criticism of Talageri? That would be far more
constructive than referring to rambling internet diatribes by persons
who hold up other persons of proven mendaciousness as authorities.

> Witzels's admits that his article is closely linked to earlier
> 19th century orientalists like Oldenberg

Perhaps because Oldenberg has done good work? Have you thought of that
possibility? Even if Oldenberg was a mleccha and not a modern
rightwing Hindu jingoist or sympathiser?

> For a sampler of euro-supremacist writing: [...]

Perhaps you can explain to us how this can be called 'euro-supremacist'?

I, for one, would not mind if you would take a lot of time to think
about these questions before answering, or before writing about the
topic again.

RZ




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Apr  5 22:07:48 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 01 18:07:48 -0400
Subject: Wanderlust of the IE Tribes
Message-ID: <161227068887.23782.4035232739809270508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<re-sent, did not go through eralier>

Our old acquaintance,  Subrahmanya, is at it and at his favorite target
again
(check the INDOLOGY archives for "panzer" and "tank"!)

>Shrikant Talageri's long and
>devastating analysis of Michael Witzel's _Rigvedic: poets, chieftians andn
>politics. (http://www.voi.org/books/rig/ch9.htm)

SuB has not done his homework. If he had read my recent devastating
critique of Talageri's book
carefully, he would have noticed that T.'s 52 pp. criticism of my 46 pp.
paper  (1995) is  *moot* since it is based on his faulty analysis of the
Rgveda. For which see:

http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html, or go directly to EJVS7-2:
http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0702/ejvs0702b.txt  and
http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0702/ejvs0702c.txt

If Talageri's criticism had any merit I would already have responded in
detail.
I may still do so later  -- but only if and when I will have time *and
gusto* to engage in
this futile exercise of secondary and tertiary "research":
Discussing  *wrong* criticism, accusations etc., based on the *wrong*
analysis of a text in archaic Sanskrit that was only *read in Victorian
English,*  done by someone who has  neither Sanskrit nor the necessary
background in philolology, linguistics, archaeology or even biology.  Using
the wrong materials as basis for his work. Nor does any counterchecking.

We have other things to do.  ---  The tedious job to deconstruct the body
of T.'s book already took enough of my time that would have been better
used for original research -- such as  ongoing, more detailed analysis of
the Rgveda!

>Wittzels's articles has been held up by the usual euro-centric parties as
>groundbreaking,revolutionary, based on a fresh look at the old texts, etc.

Really? I would be glad to learn where -- since I do not keep track of
approval (nor of "devastating" analyses or web chatter criticism /
denunciations).
Will start to do so now as it will help to answer repetitive abuse such as
SuB's in one minute.

>Witzels's admits that his article is closely linked to earlier
>19th century orientalists like Oldenberg

And what is wrong with that? Nobody has refuted Oldenberg's 1888 book
[H. Oldenberg, Metrische und textgeschichtliche Prolegomena zu einer
kritischen Rigveda-Ausgabe, Berlin 1888, repr.  Wiesbaden : F. Steiner,
1982]

Certainly not our SuB. Nor Talageri who does not even *know* of Oldenberg's
fundamental investigation.

>Talageri shows that Witzels's views on the RV is as methodologically
>unsound as the endless stream of trash put out by
>missionaries and colonialists.

T. has not "shown" anything of that sort. Instead he is dead wrong in his
own 'analysis', see EJVS 7-2.

Didn't I just complain, in the editors' column of EJVS,  of stupid
correlation and identification of myself with 19th century people,
missionaries etc. If you needed any more proof, here it is.

I do not begin even talk ablout the value of *many* books written by
missionaries or local British administrators. Without them there would be
glaring gaps in our knowledge, e.g., of small languages  etc. etc. etc.

In sum: the usual rant of *current* Indian politics ...

>Witzels's historical fictions are based wholly on 19th century theories.

Nope.  Again, SuB has not done his homework. If so, he would (perhaps!)
have noticed that I use and quote the work of quite a number of 20th
century scholars, including fairly recent ones such at that of C. Ehret
(1988),  whose model is very close to what I think happened in the mid-1st
mill. BCE Greater Panjab.
If SuB thinks of other subjects, such as comparative linguistics, fine:
they are a 19th century product -- just like many other discoveries in the
(natural) sciences. But, it is people like Rajarshi  who are stuck in the
19th c.:   they have not noticed (see again EJSV 7-2 and forthc. 7-3)  that
all these fields have long since moved on...

[Ehret, C. Language change and the material correlates of language and
ethnic shift.   Antiquity 62, 1988, 564-74]


(continued with pt 2.  : pointed attacks)
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  6 01:15:34 2001
From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 01:15:34 +0000
Subject: RSS--a danger to Hinduism
Message-ID: <161227068889.23782.17746863546271858329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In an interesting article, a retired Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court
argues that the RSS has become a danger to Hinduism--paradoxial as this may
seem:

http://www.the-hindu.com/stories/05062524.htm

-Satya
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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  6 01:30:14 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 02:30:14 +0100
Subject: Lotus Lakshmi
Message-ID: <161227068891.23782.14756564910109493792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

In the sangam poetry, the lotus flower (tAmarai) is used as
a metaphor for Para-strI/gaNikA all the time. OTOH,
kuvaLai (black/blue water-lily) is used for the Wife
of the chieftain, probably the cross-cousin and legitimate
manager of the household.

The color semiotics using flower symbolism for contrasting
red vs. black in sangam times is interesting.
"red" -> active and "black" -> passive states!
These red vs. black can be seen in other things as well:
a) Murukan (Skanda) 'red' vs. Maal-Narayana 'black'
b) the new moon 'black' (pure state of Cit/Knowledge) vs.
rising sun (Enlightened Knowledge)
c) Black tilakam (during mensuration) vs. Red tilakam during weddings
and so on. In India, black is sometimes portrayed as bad
but many times as good though mysterious and hence awe-evoking.

Given that red lotus, ruby (mANikya), cULAmaNi/cUDAmaNi
implicitly refer to prostitutes, was Sriilakshmi, the red lotus
goddess, ever compared with gaNikA women in Sanskrit epics or later
poetry?

I haven't seen L. Sternbach's book on courtesans.
Manimekalai and Kamban explicitly compare vezyas with Lakshmi
saying that both leave men once they aren't rich enough.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

PS: There is another aspect: "White" lotus of Sarasvati with
Veena, - Maatangi. She more closely resembles viRali minstrels
receiving gold lotus, gold garlands. The great dancer,
T. Balasarasvati's grandmother VeeNai Dhanammal used to
play the instrument seated under a jasmine pavilion,
Devadasi streets had a Sarasvato temple. Sarasvati/VAc is
no wonder married to the most-abstracted god Brahma,
white colored and with a white swan vaahana. Brahma is the
bard par excellence reciting veda orally.

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From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET  Fri Apr  6 06:47:28 2001
From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 07:47:28 +0100
Subject: Lotus Lakshmi
In-Reply-To: <F315U9T3TGJ2TUSzbAU00000058@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068893.23782.6677073496249924229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't know if this is of any relevance, but in SI iconography ViSNu is
generally portrayed with two wives, S'rI DevI (=LakSmI), the senior, on his
right and BhU DevI (Earth Goddess) on his left.  The former holds a (red)
lotus bud, the latter an open (blue) water-lily.  There's a similar
arrangement with other Gods depicted with 2 wives, e.g. Murugan
(SubrahmaNya, KArttikeya).

Perhaps the implication in the poems you refer to is that the chieftain is
putting the mistress ahead of the wife?

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

N. Ganesan writes

>In the sangam poetry, the lotus flower (tAmarai) is used as
>a metaphor for Para-strI/gaNikA all the time. OTOH,
>kuvaLai (black/blue water-lily) is used for the Wife
>of the chieftain, probably the cross-cousin and legitimate
>manager of the household.




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Fri Apr  6 09:52:51 2001
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 10:52:51 +0100
Subject: Lotus Lakshmi
In-Reply-To: <F315U9T3TGJ2TUSzbAU00000058@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068898.23782.14581369593057718878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N. Ganesan wrote:

////////
>Given that red lotus, ruby (mANikya), cULAmaNi/cUDAmaNi
>implicitly refer to prostitutes, was Sriilakshmi, the red lotus
>goddess, ever compared with gaNikA women in Sanskrit epics or later
>poetry?
////////

The idea that zrI, personifying secular luck and prosperity, is fickle
(caNcalA, lolA) and ever prone to go from one man to the next can be found
throughout Sanskrit literature. It is a parallel to the European concept of
the fickleness of Fortuna (Greek Tyche). In Indian mythology we find
particularly tales about the precarious relation between Indra and SrI.
Thus one might expect to find her compared with a gaNikA. On the other
hand, epics and Puranas emphasize that zrI/LakSmI follows virtue, and that
makes the difference in comparison with the gaNikA: The gaNikA follows
money whereas zrI gives success to and bestows riches on the worthy man -
this is at least her standard image. But there may be exceptions?

Regards,
G.v.Simson




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr  6 20:27:29 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 13:27:29 -0700
Subject: Naayaka-Naayakii Bhaavam in Sufism
Message-ID: <161227068916.23782.6777534726337048656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the Tamil bhakti literature (c. 5th centuty beginning),
the saint-poets taking the female persona and longing for the beloved
God is common. Srivaishnava commentators on Alvars say in manipravalam:
"jnAnattil tan2 pEccu, prEmattil peN pEccu". Roughly -
"talk philosophy as men, but express love (for God) as women".

Do the Sufism also portray God-Devotee as lovers? Rumi? Earlier?
Rumi is an Afghan.

If Sufism does express this bhAva, is an Indian influence discernible?

Thanks,
SM


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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Apr  6 13:05:02 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 14:05:02 +0100
Subject: Wanderlust of the IETribes !!
In-Reply-To: <F36BOh8s4KWiGtXsL1c0000331b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068900.23782.16124778069333461819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Subrahmanya S. wrote:

> Witzels's admits that his article is closely linked to earlier
> 19th century orientalists like Oldenberg

You are wrong about this.  Witzel doesn't "admit" that he is closely
linked to scholars like Oldenberg.  As far as I can see, he proudly
proclaims it.  He does this on the basis that he has actually read
Oldenberg's writings, thinks them substantial, and agrees with certain of
his conclusions.

Your posting suggests that you disagree with Oldenberg, perhaps on the
grounds of his profession ("orientalist"), or perhaps because he lived in
the nineteenth century.  These categories are not amongst those which are
considered authoritative criteria for scholarly judgement by the
contemporary academy.

If you think Oldenberg's scholarship on vedic topics is faulty, please
give your reasons, based on a careful reading of Oldenberg and the Veda.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Apr  6 13:17:29 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 14:17:29 +0100
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
In-Reply-To: <F77ZodTWaSOiz8JDx2I0000349b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068902.23782.11313322047307067713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Subrahmanya S. wrote:

> Surely there was iconoclasm in "classical and medieval India" why
> is it not a appropriate topic ?

Iconoclasm in classical and medieval India *is* an appropriate topic!
Duh.

> It is probably time for the natives to study the
> "indology scholars" themselves to find out their motives.

Actually, many important studies of this topic already exist, by Schwab,
Inden, Breckenridge and van der Veer, Trautmann, and others.  These
authors are all natives, of course.

> But then of course, the list owner has complete rights to
> censor and select the topic.

Yes, I do.  So I insist that a discussion of the Taliban, their
motivation, our feelings about what has happened, and so forth, is
inappropriate in this forum.  I urge you in the strongest possible terms
to discuss this vitally important topic.  But please do so in an
appropriate forum, e.g., one designed for current affairs.  Not in
INDOLOGY.

> Then, however, the claim to openminded scholarship is not valid.

Yes, it is valid.  The INDOLOGY forum is designed for the open-minded,
scholarly discussion of any topic that falls within its defined scope,
which is clearly stated in the documentation available at
www.indology.org.uk

A fashion magazine could justifiably turn down submissions on engineering;
a physics journal could even turn down submissions on chemistry.  The
INDOLOGY forum deprecates submissions on current affairs.  It's a simple
matter to grasp, surely?

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Apr  6 13:24:43 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 14:24:43 +0100
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104061407060.5271-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227068904.23782.2433960987792722312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> Duh.

That slipped out, and I apologise unreservedly.  It's the sort of language
I don't like to see in the list, and I *really* shouldn't do it myself.

Apologies, Subrahmanya!

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Apr  6 14:30:59 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 15:30:59 +0100
Subject: Guest-professorship at Vienna University (Tibetan and/or Buddhist              Studies) (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227068907.23782.8791461556892184964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:26:39 +0100
From: Ulrich Pagel <up1 at soas.ac.uk>

Dear Colleagues,

A guest-professorship for Tibetan and/or Buddhist Studies was announced
by the University of Vienna at the Institute for Southasian, Tibetan
and Buddhist Studies (formerly Institutes for Indology and  for Tibetan
and Buddhist Studies) for the period of February 1, 2002 to Jannuary
31, 2004, as a temporary replacement of myself (taking a research
professorship at the Austrian Academy of Sciences during this period).
Your applications should reach our dean's office by May 2, 2001. Since
you would have to teach German, at least for a major part of your
activities, I add the original German announcement below for your
informatuion:

?<bold>Ausschreibung einer Planstelle eines/r Gastprofessors/in an der
Geistes- und Kulturwissenschaftlichen Fakult?t: Planstelle eines/r 
Gastprofessors/in f?r Tibetologie und/oder Buddhismuskunde.


</bold>Am Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde der
Universit?t Wien ist f?r die Zeit vom 1. Februar 2002 bis 31. J?nner
2004 die Stelle eines/r


Gastprofessors/in f?r Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde (Ersatz Prof.
Steinkellner) zu besetzen.


Die Lehrverpflichtung umfa?t 8 Stunden in Form von Vorlesungen,
?bungen, Proseminaren und Seminaren. Erw?nscht sind:
Arbeitsschwerpunkte auf den Gebieten der Religions-, Philosophie-,
Literatur-, Sozialgeschichte Tibets und/oder auf den Gebieten der
Religions-, Philosophie-, Literatur-, Sozialgeschichte der s?d-
und/oder zentralasiatischen buddhistischen Traditionen auf
philologischer Grundlage.


Bewerbungsvoraussetzung sind eine der Verwendung entsprechende
abgeschlossene inl?ndische oder gleichwertige ausl?ndische
Hochschulbildung, eine an einer ?sterreichischen Universit?t erworbene
oder gleichwertige Lehrbefugnis (venia docendi), oder eine der
Lehrbefugnis als Universit?tsdozent/in gleichzuwertende
wissenschaftliche Bef?higung f?r das Fach, das der zu besetzenden
Stelle entspricht.


Bewerbungen sind mit den ?blichen Unterlagen (Lebenslauf,
Publikationsliste, ?berblick ?ber die Lehrveranstaltungs- und
Vortragst?tigkeit) bis <bold>2. Mai 2001 </bold>an das Dekanat der
Geistes- und Kulturwissenschaftlichen Fakult?t der Universit?t Wien,
Dr. Karl Lueger-Ring 1, A-1010 Wien, zu richten.


Die Universit?t Wien strebt eine Erh?hung des Frauenamnteils
insbesondre in Leitungsfunktionen und beim wissenschaftlichen Personal
an  und foredrt deshalb qualifizierte Frauen ausdr?cklich zur Bewerbung
auf. Frauen werden bei gleicher Qualifikation vorrangig aufgenommen.


Kennzahl: 9A/20-2000/01"




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr  6 22:56:24 2001
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 15:56:24 -0700
Subject: Skt. preta, drav. pEtu, and vaitaraNi
In-Reply-To: <F29LiHdlQgdYXSVvR0W0000160c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068918.23782.6553303055605867819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > In Tamil sangam poetry, terms like pArppAr and
> antaNar do not
> necessarily mean brahmins of the topmost varNa
> chanting vedas. In
> many instances pArppAr just means the
> "worshippers/eulogizers
> /singers". Also, antaNar ("coolers" < taN- 'cool')
> could mean those
> who pacify/cool spirits (of the dead). The phrase,
> "pulam puri
> antaNar" means "the cool priests chanting/doing
> magic spells".
>

Welcome back, Dr NG.

This phrase "pulam puri antaNAr" occurs in pariPATal
6. There it stands for Vedic brahmins (the threaded
variety) and not, I submit, "the cool priests
chanting/doing magic spells".

The commentary is unambiguous on this point -
"maRaiyai virumpum antaNAr" (ParimElazakar). UVS, in
fact, gives a cross ref to pariPATal 1:46 wherein
parimElazakar explains why the word "pulam" stands for
the Veda. The original manuscripts seem to be corrupt
right at this spot and there's an editor's ellipsis
right in the middle of this sentence. However, UVS as
editor, gives in his notes the identity "pulam -
vEtam" in this context as well as in the locus under
discussion viz., pari 6:45.

Hope this helps,

LS

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr  6 15:16:18 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 16:16:18 +0100
Subject: Lotus Lakshmi
Message-ID: <161227068913.23782.12931451311851351779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
I don't know if this is of any relevance, but in SI iconography ViSNu
is generally portrayed with two wives, S'rI DevI (=LakSmI), the
senior, on his right and BhU DevI (Earth Goddess) on his left.  The
former holds a (red) lotus bud, the latter an open (blue) water-lily.
There's a similar arrangement with other Gods depicted with 2 wives,
e.g. Murugan (SubrahmaNya, KArttikeya). Perhaps the implication in the
poems you refer to is that the chieftain is putting the mistress ahead
of the wife?
>>>

Yes, the wife thru' arranged marriage is boring. She is bhUdevi,
"black" signifies earth, fertile, "passive", ... BhUdevi, the
"official" wife married to maintain family status and lineage, is
comparable to Devasena, the daughter of Indra, the king and wife of
Skanda. But Murukan is ever after VaLLi, the VeDDa girl from the
mountains just as Narayana is after zrI. Like vallI of Subrahmanya
from the mounatins, zrI is from the sea, in a sense, from the fringe
of the settled society.

The symbolism of the Wife (the chief one) with kuvaLai flowers and
parattai with lotues is amazing in sangam poems. I read in M.
Olender's book that "internal metaphors" like these were claimed to
be Aryan by 19th century philologists. When data from the sangam poems
come out and the implications fully grasped, it will be realized in
the future the basis for dhvani theory is Tamil. First formulated
succinctly as uLLuRai and uTa_nuRai (also called as "iRaicci"). As
you know, vellalas/vELir were the guys who controlled the land and
they are routinely said to be "kuvaLai mAlaiyar/kaNNiyar" in Tamil
poety for centuries. Naturally, bhUdevi has to have water-lily. She
is important no doubt, but not as attractive as zrI.

I was fortunate to discover the only lokaayata work in Tamil. A
beautiful poem with the identical etukai/prAsam of the letter "t"
after a long first syllable. In the entire world of Indian literature,
this prabandham of the 11th century by a Chola court poet is very
important, much more beautiful than JayarAsi. We have only bits and
small quotes on lokaayata by the system's polemical opponents. For a
full text on lokaayata, see the kArAn2ai vizupparaiyan2 maTal (in
tamil script):

http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai/pub/pm0060/valamatal.pdf

(Many Tamilologists like this so much, someday I hope they will
translate this work. A gift from Tamils to the Indic philosophy).

Found out that the maTal employs stories lauding kAmam, many are
previously told by AzvaghoSa also. Wasn't azvaghoSa rebellious,
against caste? The maTal text ridicules, satirizes and chides all
religions: Naturally, the 1) Jainism takes the maximum hit. Next comes
2) Buddhism 3) Vedic ritualists 4) kApAlikas/pAsupatas and 5)
advaitins. "Religion is of 6 kinds" is an ancient theme, JayamkoNTAr
puts the sixth and the best religion as lokaayatam! What is
interesting is the fact that Vishnu-Narayana's religion is never put
down. In fact, the hero and his girl are said to be exactly like
Vishnu with Lakshmi. The chastity 'kaRpu' as understood now was very
different in sangam times as well as in this maTal.

<<
The idea that zrI, personifying secular luck and prosperity, is fickle
(caNcalA, lolA) and ever prone to go from one man to the next can be
found throughout Sanskrit literature. It is a parallel to the
European concept of the fickleness of Fortuna (Greek Tyche). In
Indian mythology we find particularly tales about the precarious
relation between Indra and SrI. Thus one might expect to find her
compared with a gaNikA. On the other hand, epics and Puranas
emphasize that zrI/LakSmI follows virtue, and that makes the
difference in comparison with the gaNikA: The gaNikA follows money
whereas zrI gives success to and bestows riches on the worthy man -
this is at least her standard image. But there may be exceptions?
>>

I should have been more clear: Lakshmi is more like "il-parattai"
(=parastrI in the house), and  kAmakkizatti of the sangam times. Among
Dravidians, the patriarchy is strong. Only exception is devadasis
where matriarchy rules. In the buddhist epic maNimEkalai, citrApati is
a gaNikA. Her daughter mAdhavi's patron was kOvalan. mAdhavi's
daughter is maNimEkalai. citrApati advises maNi. to accept
udayakumaran. She points out that maNi.'s lineage is not the standard
one. They do not commit satI after the patron dies. Just as a honey
bee leaves a flower, and like the lute of a bard changes hands to
another upon his demise, gaNikAs choose another rich connoisseur
(rasika, cuvaiJar in tamil). CitrApati concludes saying that they
are like Lakshmi who leave men without money.

     vin2ai ozikAlait tiruvin2 celvi
     an2aiyEm Aki ATavart tuRappEm  - maNi. 18:21-22

Of course, gaNikAs are maGgalamukhiis: They are nitya-sumangalI 'ever
auspicious'. Proverbs like vEzya darzanam pApa naazanam, they generate
wealth by being auspicious and their performing arts are supposed
to ward off evil eye/spirits and generate weath for their patrons.
The Indian custom was that gaNikAs were honest towards a (rich) patron
like zrI. In zrIvaishnava tirupatis, inscriptions call devadasis,
as kaliyuga lakshmis. Kaamikaagama tells that devadasis accept the
priests and the rich in the town, but not outsiders.

In that sense, both gaNikAs and zrI are auspicious (bestowing
wealth) and virtuous.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




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From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Fri Apr  6 15:15:54 2001
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 17:15:54 +0200
Subject: Guest-professorship at Vienna University (Tibetan and/or              Buddhist              Studies) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104061530040.5271-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227068910.23782.12303495607692322930.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friday, April 06, 2001, 4:30:59 PM, Ernst Steinkellner wrote (via
Ulrich Pagel):

DW> A guest-professorship for Tibetan and/or Buddhist Studies was announced
DW> by the University of Vienna at the Institute for Southasian, Tibetan
DW> and Buddhist Studies (formerly Institutes for Indology and  for Tibetan
DW> and Buddhist Studies) for the period of February 1, 2002 to Jannuary
DW> 31, 2004, as a temporary replacement of myself (taking a research
DW> professorship at the Austrian Academy of Sciences during this period).
DW> Your applications should reach our dean's office by May 2, 2001. Since
DW> you would have to teach German, at least for a major part of your
DW> activities, I add the original German announcement below for your
DW> informatuion:

If I may be so bold as to add a small remark: It is not required that applicants teach German (the language), but
that they teach their classes in Tibetan and/or Buddhist Studies IN
German :-)

--------
Best regards,

Birgit Kellner
Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
Vienna University




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sat Apr  7 04:49:40 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 21:49:40 -0700
Subject: Chariots and Ships
Message-ID: <161227068926.23782.5062897792657057091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya, as always a cool-headed empiricist, writes:

> There is no evidence of any Indo European "war chariot" anywhere except
> in the fevered brains of entrenched eurocentic academics.

Can I suggest as bedtime reading M. Sparreboom's _Chariots of the Veda_
(1985), which copiously discusses the iconographical, archaeological, and
textual evidence? Or would you agree with D. Frawley that the composers of
the Vedas (aka the Mother Culture) were a maritime people? ("That's not a
chariot, that's a ship!")

saf




From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 04:15:13 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 01 23:15:13 -0500
Subject: Taliban, Darul Uloom Deoband and idols
Message-ID: <161227068924.23782.16471991156626568291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>Actually, many important studies of this topic already exist, by >Schwab,
>Inden, Breckenridge and van der Veer, Trautmann, and others.  These
>authors are all natives, of course.

These writers blame those belonging to a period
long ago and this is used as a smoke screen to cover up the
soft bigotry that is being perpetrated by Indologists now.

The problem is that many of the present day Indologists are
themselves racist and peddle old dogma with a different spin.

The fact is that Indology that exists today is completely
rigged. That is why Wizl. can get away with his loony ideas about
war chariot nonsense, but anyone who proposes that the IE homeland
was in the subcontinent is to be labelled as a hindu fundamentalist.

The old day Indologists tried to come up with skull sizes
to peddle Euro-supremacist nonsense, the present day peddlers
come up with fantasises about Indo-European war chariot skills.

There is no evidence of any Indo European "war chariot" anywhere except
in the fevered brains of entrenched eurocentic academics.
If at all Indo-European is a language family - how in the world
can one identify a so called "war chariot" based on a language
family ? A great leap of scholarly Indo-European faith indeed !!

"The intimate linkage between Proto-Indo-European and the
horse and the chariot is a myth". pg 51 - Wagon, Chariot and Carriage -
Symbol and status in the history of transport - Stuart Piggott


PREJUDICE ON THIS LIST:
The alacrity with which some link critcizing some obscure course on
astrology was posted on the list while at the same time trying
to smother any discussion of iconoclasm in Indian history is
an example of the anti-hindu bigotry and negationism that exists
among Indologists.

Regards,
Subrahmanya














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From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 05:13:40 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 00:13:40 -0500
Subject: Chariots and Ships
Message-ID: <161227068929.23782.13308887659440525317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

saf, as always a cool-headed empiricist, writes:

Can I suggest as bedtime reading M. Sparreboom's _Chariots of the Veda_
(1985), which copiously discusses the iconographical, archaeological, and
textual evidence? Or would you agree with D. Frawley that the composers of
the Vedas (aka the Mother Culture) were a maritime people? ("That's not a
chariot, that's a ship!")

saf
--------------------------

Thank you very much for the suggestion. I have the book with me.
Could you please point  me where there is evidence of the war chatiot ?

Also, keep in mind that this has to be in the RV not from later periods or
texts.


S.

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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sat Apr  7 08:17:36 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 01:17:36 -0700
Subject: Chariots and Ships
Message-ID: <161227068931.23782.4379763345744255313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya S. writes, of RV war chariots:

> Could you please point  me where there is evidence of the war chatiot ?
>
> Also, keep in mind that this has to be in the RV not from later periods or
> texts.

Start with the obvious verses on war chariots in RV 6.75, which are replete
with images of enemies being trampled by war-chariot horses. By the
despised standards of critical scholarship, like Oldenberg's, this is a
very late RV hymn. But by the revolutionary standards of S. Talageri, whom
you defend, it is found in the "oldest" and "hoariest" of RV books. See
again Talageri's fantastic chronology at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/talageri.html.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 02:43:26 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 03:43:26 +0100
Subject: CT phrase "pulam puri"
Message-ID: <161227068921.23782.5759826949842992721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>The phrase, "pulam puri antaNar" means "the cool priests chanting/doing
>>magic spells".

Tiru. LS wrote:
<<
This phrase "pulam puri antaNAr" occurs in pariPATal 6.  There it
stands for Vedic brahmins (the threaded variety) and not, I submit,
"the cool priests chanting/doing magic spells". The commentary is
unambiguous on this point - "maRaiyai virumpum antaNAr"
(ParimElazakar). UVS, in fact, gives a cross ref to pariPATal 1:46
wherein parimElazakar explains why the word "pulam" stands for
the Veda. The original manuscripts seem to be corrupt right at this
spot and there's an editor's ellipsis right in the middle of this
sentence. However, UVS as editor, gives in his notes the identity
"pulam - vEtam" in this context as well as in the locus under
discussion viz., pari 6:45.
>>

ParimElazakar, though his commentary is after a millennium  or so
later, is possibly right about paripATal 6:45 where "pulam" could be
the Veda. OTOH, it's certain that "pulam puri caGkam" in maNimEkalai
epic does not mean veda at all.

In the sangam poems describing wedding rituals (akam 86, 136) the
vedic brahmins, fire sacrifice, dakshiNai, are absent.

Sangam poems were written imitating the oral culture predating the
texts by a long time. From the oral culture, stock phrases are often
borrowed. "pulam puri" seems to be one such. "pulam" has meanings of
"sense, faculty of any organ of sense; sensation; consciousness;
perception by the senses;" (OTL entry). Oral bards in Kerala have been
recorded for a long time to be experts in in sorcery, magic, and
pacification of the souls. Using musical instruments like drums,
flute, oboe, conch shells and ritualistic dance, medium sensation,
possession and magic spells were done by shaman priests
in sangam poems. This ancient "pulam purital" seems to have been
applied later for the vedic, buddhist mantra recitals.

Also,
Please consider other occurences of the phrase "pulam puri" in old
tamil texts. For example:

   tEr vaN malaiyan2 muntai pEr icai
   pulam puri vayiriyar nalam puri muzavin2 - naR. 100:9-10

Note that here also "pulam puri" is present. vayir = bamboo. vayiriyar
= dancers, actors. vayiriyar were not experts in vedas or homa
rituals. Here vayiriyar are beating the muzA drums.A possession ritual
music is taking place. In sangam texts, we have blood sacrifices fed
upon drums during frenzied dances and music. (Many similarities to
worship of drums in Atharvaveda as well).

Written literature develops (usually) by imitating oral literature.
One of the features of oral literature is formulae (Lord's Singer of
Tales). In ancient cultures in India and worldwide, often possession
music arises from tribes who act as country priests specializing in
magic, spells, and oracle.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

PS: naRRiNai 100:10 has an important variant published
in UVS library edition:
"pulam piri vayiriyar nalam puri muzavin2".
The commentary is "vERRu nATTiliruntu vanta".
If so, it could mean pole-dancers.
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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Apr  7 14:19:53 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 10:19:53 -0400
Subject: Chariots and Ships
In-Reply-To: <F28buhhhETApmdUrmib0000169d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227068943.23782.6069544140960227431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Farmer suggested:
>bedtime reading M. Sparreboom's _Chariots of the Veda_
>(1985), which copiously discusses the iconographical, archaeological, and
>textual evidence?

SUBRAHMANYA:
> I have the book with me.
>Could you please point  me where there is evidence of the war chatiot ?

* Why doesn't he read the book himself?

* Second, he would have to check on all passages in the Rgveda dealing with
chariots. There are word indexes of the RV: Hermann Grassmann's,
Vishvabandhu's...
Look for ratha, ratheSTha,  and compare cakra, vaaja, etc.

>>Indology that exists today is completely
rigged. That is why Wizl. can get away with his loony ideas about
war chariot nonsense,

Oh netiquette....  Which one of my many aatmans (acc. to Rajaram) are you
talking about? In your last posts you seem to make a deliberate effort to
distinguish between them by different spellings. But you would have to give
us the key which spelling refers to which aatman.   --
Then, which nonsense, pray? Read all of the RV first, then come back with
details.

*His third job would be to check on the closely related Avestan texts: look
for ratha, rathI, rathaESta (Vedic ratheSTha).  Then you would have
Indo-Iranian chariots.

* His fourth job would be to check out the early Hittite, Greek, Latin,
Celtic  evidence. Please let us know what that is, and also the words for
chariot in these languages. And the consequences for IE reconstructions.

When you have done so, Subrahmanya,  let us know the results of your
comprehensive investigation.

ONLY AFTER you have done this, you may (perhaps) proclaim:

>>There is no evidence of any Indo European "war chariot" anywhere except
in the fevered brains of entrenched eurocentic academics.
If at all Indo-European is a language family - how in the world
can one identify a so called "war chariot" based on a language
family ?  <<

Euro-centric, again? Ever heard of the many non-European, non-"Caucasian"
linguists and philologists?

Next job: show that IE is NOT  a language family!
And, FYI:  Language families have a well defined vocabulary. No word for
objects without  an object, exc. in mythology. Then, show that ratha etc.
are just that - mythology.  Amar Chitra Katha.  Such as the Sintastha or
Oxus chariots?

Enough homework?  Just for two short paras of yours. --

If you do *not* do this background check,  you have to be content to be
called a propagandist, at best,  plus many other things...

***

The matter however, is a little more complicated than our budding
philologist and archaeologist Subrahmanya assumes:

"The intimate linkage between Proto-Indo-European and the
horse and the chariot is a myth". pg 51 - Wagon, Chariot and Carriage -
Stuart Piggott

* SuB.  should also let us know why.  (And when the 2-wheeled spoked,
horse-drawn chariot was first used, and by whom).

Since he won't be able to do all of the above, a HINT: results in
forthcoming EJVS 7-3, due within the month.  Look up  section 14.

In the meantime I suggest to Subrahmanya:

stop broadcasting invectives such as those above and do your homework!
Then come back.   How does the 'other list'  call his technique: spit and
run....

========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Apr  7 14:27:19 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 10:27:19 -0400
Subject: Chariots and Ships
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001040712564681@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227068945.23782.10505211968721642151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

ARUN GUPTA:

>Subramanyah S  ... wrote that the Indo-European war chariot is a figment
>of the imagination.

>Steven Farmer seems to be saying that the war chariot apparently
>appears first in RV VI, which, according to him and accepted theory,
>is a late Mandala.

I do not think he says that. He can speak for himself. -- However,  A.
Gupta's sentence misunderstands the matter at hand:

* Talageri thinks that all of Mandala 6 is the 'hoariest": of the Rgveda.
Which has just been debunked in EJVS 7-2:
http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0702/ejvs0702b.txt and ...0703.txt

* hymn 6.75, however, has been recognized, for the last 110 years, as a
late  addition to the core of RV.  Nevertheless, it describes the chariot
well enough.

There is, of course, much chariot evidence in the older sections of RV.
Easily available in Grassmann, when counterchecked against Oldenberg 1888
(limited summary in my 1995 paper).

>So, Farmer and Subramanyah appear to be in agreement.

Not at all, as above will indicate, and as S. Farmer certainly will point
out once the sun rises in California.

>That is, if "the Indo-European war chariot" means that chariots were
>part of the PIE culture.

That is the real question, See EJVS 7-3 (forthc.)

>Are chariots a late acquisition of the Indo-Aryans ?

No, see the Avestan evidence., with archaic terms, echoed by equally
archaic ones in Vedic..
Again, more in EJVS 7-3, section 14.

May cooler heads, such as in this thread, prevail...



========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 12:19:41 2001
From: attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM (S Bhatta)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 12:19:41 +0000
Subject: Idiom and Grammar
Message-ID: <161227068936.23782.9899201356497636613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Farmer,

I believe in earlier posts you have suggested, perhaps even admitted, your lack of proficiency in the idiom and grammar of Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise).

Thus, without this engendered, I fail to see how you merely can point your finger toward some passages which you cannot read in the original language and expect to be taken seriously.

In sum, I think that it is somewhat silly for you to get cocky and suggest bedtime readings to anyone when in fact it is you who cannot even read at bedtime.

SB






_____________________________________________________
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From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Sat Apr  7 11:56:46 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 12:56:46 +0100
Subject: Chariots and Ships
Message-ID: <161227068933.23782.3944788527561304720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subramanyah S quotes :

"The intimate linkage between Proto-Indo-European and the
 horse and the chariot is a myth". pg 51 - Wagon, Chariot and Carriage -
 Symbol and status in the history of transport - Stuart Piggott

and wrote that the Indo-European war chariot is a figment of the imagination.

Steven Farmer seems to be saying that the war chariot apparently
appears first in RV VI, which, according to him and accepted theory,
is a late Mandala.

So, Farmer and Subramanyah appear to be in agreement.
That is, if "the Indo-European war chariot" means that chariots were
part of the PIE culture.

Are chariots a late acquisition of the Indo-Aryans ?
-Arun Gupta




From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 13:37:18 2001
From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 13:37:18 +0000
Subject: Idiom and Grammar
Message-ID: <161227068938.23782.3717877137342151065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Even the latest Hindutva hero Talageri is unable to read Vedic Sanskrit as
M.Witzel has shown recently. I suggest that this heckling of genuine
scholars by anyone (including members of the saffron brigade) ought to be
stopped.

-Satya

>Dr. Farmer,
>
>I believe in earlier posts you have suggested, perhaps even admitted, your
>lack of proficiency in the idiom and grammar of Sanskrit (Vedic or
>otherwise).
>
>Thus, without this engendered, I fail to see how you merely can point your
>finger toward some passages which you cannot read in the original language
>and expect to be taken seriously.
>
>In sum, I think that it is somewhat silly for you to get cocky and suggest
>bedtime readings to anyone when in fact it is you who cannot even read at
>bedtime.
>
>SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at
>http://bol.rediff.com

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From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 14:14:45 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 15:14:45 +0100
Subject: Idiom and Grammar
Message-ID: <161227068940.23782.14940201503292380349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   As shown in this list by Sanskritists and Vedicists, even
the scholars heralded by the Hindutva men do not know
Vedic. People like Elst, Frawley, ... depend on Griffith's
translation.

By forcing the Indologists not to write on the web, I feel
that their specilaized knowledge acquired by spending decades
of research and teaching will not be available for the poor
Indians. Many millions want to hear from professional Sanskritists.
They want to educate themselves about the latest research about
Aryan ingressions.

Few days ago, Suresh-ji gave a nice pointer that MIT
is planning to make all their course work on the web for FREE!
Engineers know it costs $ 30,000 in tuition alone to attend MIT
a year. How can Indians afford MIT schooling? Think of
Harvard university tuition.

Like Lars Fosse and others have opined before, the Web is
a great resource. Hope Indologists write more in English
rather than their own tongues, and make the publications which
they deem are critical breakthroughs, available on the Web.

As I said before, many millions of Indians will be thankful
for intensive Indological researches to be known. They simply
can't afford the prices of journals and books and libraries.

What I see is by stopping the discussion of Indological knowledge
forcefully by nonscholarly means, advances in Indian history to be
made by Indians in the future gets a major stumbling block.
For example, the study of High Harappan language
which the Vedicists have shown that it isn't Sanskrit, may be
aided by Indians in the future.

Sincerely,
V. Iyer

Sri. S. Bhatta wrote:
<<<

Dr. Farmer,

I believe in earlier posts you have suggested, perhaps even admitted, your
lack of proficiency in the idiom and grammar of Sanskrit (Vedic or
otherwise).

Thus, without this engendered, I fail to see how you merely can point your
finger toward some passages which you cannot read in the original language
and expect to be taken seriously.

In sum, I think that it is somewhat silly for you to get cocky and suggest
bedtime readings to anyone when in fact it is you who cannot even read at
bedtime.

SB

>>>
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From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Sat Apr  7 14:51:56 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 15:51:56 +0100
Subject: Idiom and Grammar
Message-ID: <161227068948.23782.11656158244982437374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Contrary to Shri Venkatraman Iyer, I see the proliferation of
amateur histories as a direct result of the fact that no
professional historians, Indian or non-Indian, are making 20th
century history available to the general public in India.

For instance, I doubt that Professor Witzel would have ever written
a popular article, such as that in Frontline, except that he was
severely provoked by such works.

If it takes such provocation to draw Indologists out of their shells,
I am all for it :-)

-Arun Gupta




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr  7 16:29:26 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 17:29:26 +0100
Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India
Message-ID: <161227068950.23782.7487623799151914805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sangam poem: puRam 26:
 >"... and you quickened the battle
 >  so that kings fell, and you captured
 >their royal drums and spread your fame!
 >and then, with food you had created, you
 >    sacrificed on the killing field,
 >using an oven of crowned heads after pouring
 >    out a torrent of blood
 >into the cooking pot and stirring it with the
 >    ladle of an arm still braceleted!
 >Ce_liya_n, murderous in battle! As Brahmins
 >   of the Four Vedas,
 >calm through the breadth of their knowledge,
 >devoted to restraint, surrounded you
 >and kings carried out your orders,
 >you completed the sacrifice established
 >by tradition! ..."

Dr. V. J. Roebuck wrote:
>Are you *sure* this was meant literally?  It sounds to me like a pretty
>good metaphor for warfare.

Continuing the reply:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R14069

The above poem's original words in Tamil are:

urai cela muracu vauvi
muTi talai aTuppu Aka
pun2al kuruti ulai koLIi
toTi tOL tuTuppin2 tuzanta valciyin2 - puRam 26:7-10

This theme is widely attested in sangam pomes:

a)
poruntA tevvar arinta talai aTuppin2 [...] - puRam 372:5

"you made the field of flesh radiant with your
sacrifice on an oven of severed heads obtained
with toil from enemies who opposed you, with
kUviLam wood the fuel, with ridged guts tumbling,
as a barren sacrifical priestess stirred and turned them
with severed skulls set upon sticks and coked them
up into a ball of food that even animals would refuse
amd the male cook then intoned:
" May the fresh water poured from the burning mouth
   suffice as if for all the guests at a wedding!"
And, he lifted it on high! (Hart & Heifetz)

>?From the Ten Decads, identical theme:
b)
AN talai aNagku aTuppin2
vaya vEntar oL kuruti
cin2am tIyin2 peyarpu pogka
teRal aru kaTu tuppin2
viRal viLagkiya vizu cUrppin2
toTi tOL kai tuTuppu Aka
ATuRRa Un2 cORu
neRi aRinta kaTi vAluvan2
aTi otugki pin2 peyarA
paTaiyOrkku muruku ayara
amar kaTakkum viyan2 tAn2ai - matu. 29-39

c) From CilappatikAram:

pin2 tErk kuravaip pEy ATu paRantalai
muTit talai aTuppil piTart talait tAzi
toTit tOL tuTuppin2 tuzaIya Un2 cORu
maRap pEy vAluvan2 vayin2 aRintu UTTa - Cil. 126:241-4

Observe the word, pEy 'demon, spirit' which is worshipped by
sangam era priests, is given the strange food.

Given that A. Parpola writes that human sacrifices
were done in the IVC,
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R1923
it's possible that this metaphor (?) has a hoary
memory in it.

Regards,
V. Iyer




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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sun Apr  8 00:45:41 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 17:45:41 -0700
Subject: Idiom and Grammar (and chariots again!)
Message-ID: <161227068955.23782.15556586318316014889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a post yesterday, Subrahmanya S. -- defending S. Talageri's book on the
RV and attacking Michael Witzel -- claimed that I-E war chariots existed
only in the "fevered brains of entrenched eurocentic academics." I
responded by suggesting that Subrahmanya spend some time with M.
Sparreboom's _Chariots in the Veda_ (1985). When S. challenged me to point
to RV references to war chariots, I underlined one obvious hymn
(see infra) that contains explicit references of precisely this nature.

S. Bhatta then took up Subrahmanya's torch and -- since my evidence in
this case can't be faulted -- ignored that evidence and attacked my right
to point it out. Bhatta's apparent claim is that since I'm a comparative
historian and not a Vedic scholar I'm incapable of verifying my evidence:

> I believe in earlier posts you have suggested, perhaps even admitted, your lack of
> proficiency in the idiom and grammar of Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise).
> Thus, without this engendered, I fail to see how you merely can point your finger
> toward some passages which you cannot read in the original language and expect to
> be taken seriously.

Let me respond to this seriously, ignoring Bhaatta's ad hominem intent,
since it touches on real methodological issues in comparative history. My
present work involves research in many premodern fields, and I don't claim
by any means to be a Vedic scholar (although my copies of
Monier-Williams and of Macdonell's _Vedic Grammar_ are getting a bit worn
by now). I began looking intensely at Vedic traditions several years ago,
attempting to solve some puzzling theoretical questions about textual
layering and processes of canonization posed by my work in premodern
traditions outside India. But the fact that I came to Indology late doesn't
mean that I would fall into the amateurish trap (like Talageri) of basing
my opinions about any RV passage (let alone claiming that I had produced an
"invincible" interpretation of the whole text!!) based on Griffith's
Victorian translation or late-ancient sources like the
Anukramanis. (On Talageri's reliance on such materials and -- despite his
claims otherwise -- on Puranic texts as well, see Michael Witzel's
exhaustive analysis at http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html.)

If you want to do serious work as a comparative historian, you need to be
competent in a half dozen languages at a minimum; you are also expected to
verify any novel conclusion drawn from translated texts carefully against
the originals; but you cannot expect to become fluent in the
literally scores of languages that your research may require you to
investigate. Like comparative linguists and specialists in the ancient Near
East, comparative historians are forced to depend more heavily than most
premodernists on collaborators from other fields (resources that I heavily
cultivate in Indology, Sinology, and Mesoamerican studies; also
mathematics), all available philological tools (glossaries & word lists,
comparative grammars, etymological dictionaries, etc.), and on whatever
help is offered by the comparativist's knowledge of historically related
languages. Sanskrit idiom & grammar aren't *quite* so unfamiliar if you
approach them after years of studying (and producing scholarly translations,
in some cases) other premodern I-E languages like Latin & Greek,
and can read a half dozen other languages as well.

Any trained premodernist can make many valid inferences about the RV (if
not an "invincible" interpretation, like Talageri) if he or she
has the linguistic tools (as Talageri has not) to consult the
existing *scholarly* translations of the RV with notes in German
(Geldner), French (Renou), or Russian (Elizarenkova) -- and is willing to
doublecheck those translations when needed against Monier-Williams, the
_Vedic Indices_ of Macdonell-Keith, etc., and the mass of scholarly studies
in German, French, and other scholarly languages that Talageri hasn't taken
the time to learn.

You either do your homework or you don't.

In sum, I would never presume (unlike Talageri) to write a book on the RV
without becoming an RV Vedic expert -- although I might (and do) have
strong ideas about the the ways in which Vedic sources developed in layers
and were eventually canonized that I *do* routinely propose to Vedic
experts. (Like theorists in other fields, comparative historians propose,
but the specialists dispose.) But am I capable on my own of pointing to
obvious references to war chariots in RV 6.75 and other well-known
passages in the scholarly literature? I humbly submit that, after a quarter
century of historical training, and a reasonable understanding by now of
Vedic traditions, that I probably am.

In a related post, Arun Gupta writes:

> Steve[] Farmer seems to be saying that the war chariot apparently
> appears first in RV VI, which, according to him and accepted theory,
> is a late Mandala.

As M. Witzel correctly suggested earlier today, I did NOT imply that the war
chariot first appeared in RV 6. (I'm not sure what "first appeared" could
mean here, since RV 6 in the received text is made up of hymns from
different periods.)  I specifically picked an example of the war chariot
from RV 6.75 to underscore a point about Talaageri's book: RV studies,
using Oldenberg's methodologically tested means of detecting late additions
in the family books, showed long ago that RV 6.75 is a late hymn; but
Talageri (who has never read Oldenberg or the other classics of RV
scholarship, most of which even this outsider has read by now) claimed that
RV 6 is the oldest RV book; indeed, he dates it at the *youngest*
(supposedly a "conservative estimate") to between  3500 - 2900 BCE; see
here again http://www.safarmer.com/pico/talageri.html. Even a quick search
of the comparative data from Central Asia, the Middle East, and China would
have shown Talageri that no chariots existed anywhere on the planet in that
era -- let alone in S. Asia.

So the upshot of this is that a little study of comparative history can be
of real help to those interested in the RV. This includes non-Vedic
readers like Talageri who write "invincible" books on the RV based on
Victorian translations -- and comparativists like me who wouldn't presume
to do so.

S. Farmer




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Sun Apr  8 00:22:58 2001
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 19:22:58 -0500
Subject: Ivo Fiser article, Kamasutra
In-Reply-To: <200104072257.RAA154240@nadal.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227068952.23782.1846424184404775696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indologists (and others),

   Ivo Fiser, the author of *Indian erotics of the oldest period* (Praha:
1966), contributed an article on the text history of the Kamasutra to a
European journal (WZKS) sometime between 1991-1996 if memory serves.  I'd
appreciate the full reference if anyone has it.

best,
Tim Cahill

Assistant Professor
Religious Studies Dept.
Loyola University
New Orleans, LA  70118
ph. (504) 865-3183




From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Sun Apr  8 05:50:21 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 22:50:21 -0700
Subject: Tag-Team Wrestling [Commentary on the film]
Message-ID: <161227068957.23782.12166203728627043358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mike Witzel & Steven Farmer. A gleaming smile breaks across my
daughter?s face as she hears you rasping at the microphones again. She
sees you dressed in your ferocious get ups as coast-to-coast professional
tag-team duo threatening to destroy all upstart contenders or anyone else
so foolish as to enter the ring with you. So give us the low down: Is this
your willy-nilly bid to unmask the notorious Sham?Sham Brothers? You guys
are dope! You?re huge amusement. My *wife* even likes you more than *we*
do. Now, rumors say you?re on the verge of curing cancer. Is it so? But
don?t stop there ? there are mountains to ascend. You may even rewrite The
History of the World and reclaim lost honor for No. 2 Divinity Avenue.
Rock on dudes!

Ven. Tantra
PS. Shall we keep the screen-fulls brisk?


__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Sun Apr  8 05:52:01 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Sat, 07 Apr 01 22:52:01 -0700
Subject: Tag-Team Wrestling [Commentary on the film]
Message-ID: <161227068960.23782.9022836678235871228.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mike Witzel & Steven Farmer. A gleaming smile breaks across my
daughter?s face as she hears you rasping at the microphones again. She
sees you dressed in your ferocious get ups as coast-to-coast professional
tag-team duo threatening to destroy all upstart contenders or anyone else
so foolish as to enter the ring with you. So give us the low down: Is this
your willy-nilly bid to unmask the notorious Sham?Sham Brothers? You guys
are dope! You?re huge amusement. My *wife* even likes you more than *we*
do. Now, rumors say you?re on the verge of curing cancer. Is it so? But
don?t stop there ? there are mountains to ascend. You may even rewrite The
History of the World and reclaim lost honor for No. 2 Divinity Avenue.
Rock on dudes!

Ven. Tantra
Appended note: Shall we keep the screen-fulls brisk?



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 13:22:05 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 08:22:05 -0500
Subject: Chariots and Ships
Message-ID: <161227068968.23782.15140077716690091294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Stev Farmer writes, of RV war chariots:
Start with the obvious verses on war chariots in RV 6.75, which are replete
with images of enemies being trampled by war-chariot horses.
-------------

Could you please explain where there is "war chariot" in 6.75 ?
I also leafed through Sparreboom's book to find if there is
anything about 6.75 there and did not find it. It is possible
I may have missed it.
Also, I will greatly appreciate it if you could please point
me to where you found any writeup of 6.75 containing a war-chariot.

I should also point out that I thought we were talking of "war chariots" not
of enemies being trampled by chariot horses !! ?

How do you identify a war chariot ? - notice that Sparreboom admits
that there were probably many kinds of wheeled vehicles in SIVC.

Where is the evidence of any "indo-european war chariot" ?
Archeological or textual ?

If at all there is one such "indo-european war chariot" How do you
differentiate between a chariot of a indo-european speaker and a
non-indo-european speaker's chariot ?

Sparreboom writes in the introduction
"We are atleast on firm ground if we state that the Indo-Aryan tribes
when invading Iran and northwestern India, were chariot experts. But,
as mentioned above they were not the first to use wheeled vehicles
on Indian soil. Judging by the number of miniature cart models
apparently made locally, which have been excavated from different
harappan sites, this civilization knew a variety of vehicles.
Although it cannot be excluded that the Harappans developed a kind
of car used for warfare, the evidence is scant at best"
The reference is then given to a 1970 paper in JRAS by Stuart Piggott.

The Wagon, Chariot and Carriage book by Piggott was published in
1992.

First of all, it is very important not to be swayed by the
diversionary tactics of people like Wizl. and his cohorts.

They will indulge in all kinds of posturing and name calling-
because that is one way to shift attention away from answering
questions about evidence to justify the assumptions behind
their theories.

This so called "indo european war chariot" is a fake assumption
on which the Aryan invasion/migration into the Indian Subcontinent
has been built.

As S.Piggott points out - "The intimate linkage between Proto-Indo-European
and the horse and the chariot is a myth".

Such connections between the great vibrant Indo-Europeans, horses
and chariots exist only in the fantasy world of eurcentric academics.

S.Farmer accuses me of defending S.Talageri.
I have no such goal - I am sure S.Talageri is very capable of defending his
views.

My only agenda is to find out and learn more about the grounds
on which the Aryan Invasion/Migration theory has been built.

Regards,
Subrahmanya
_________________________________________________________________
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From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sun Apr  8 06:57:58 2001
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 12:27:58 +0530
Subject: NEW: Racist Newton didn't discover Gravity!
In-Reply-To: <3ACFB408.F326CCF3@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227068963.23782.9944698290643029341.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

AFTER AIT, ON TO NGT :  After first `proving' that the Aryans did not
destroy the Harappan civilization, saffron jawans went on to `prove' that
Aryans in fact were the creators of that civilization. Credit for this
goes to saffron researchers Rajaram, Jha & Oak (all Manuvadi Brahmins),
Vishal Agarwal (a Manuvadi Bania), F.Gautier & Elst (influenced by French
racist Jean-Marie Le-Pen) et al. who published numerous papers in research
journals like Organiser. Now, having `overthrown' the `AIT', Brahmin-Bania
saffronite researchers are now busy tearing down `another figment of
racist Euro-centric thinking', namely the `racist' theory that Newton
discovered gravity !, or NGT (Newton-Gravitational Theory):

- http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/01rss.htm : RSS junks Newton,Columbus
  "Indian astronomers Aryabhatt and Bhaskaracharya who existed 1,000 and
  500 years before Newton, were quite familiar with the gravitational force.
  .. Similarly, before Christopher Columbus reached America, Indians had
  already landed there. The booklet specifies that the specimen of Indian
  art found in the temples of Aztecs were ample proof in this regard. "

 How did the Vedic Brahmin-Banias reach America? Perhaps using Sindhu
submarines powered by prehistoric nuclear reactors. Note that, nuclear
fusion reactors already existed in Vedic times, as proven by Pandit
P.N.Oak and the above article.

 Many other `colonialist-communistic-racist-Victorian-Nazi' conspiracies
have been exposed by brave saffron soldiers. For more laughs about
saffronite `research' `exposing' the NGT :

http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2001/01/01/stories/0201000h.htm
http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010101/ifr01033.html
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_160519.html
http://www.the-hindu.com/2001/01/03/stories/03030007.htm

Samar




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sun Apr  8 07:13:11 2001
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 12:43:11 +0530
Subject: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem written before he was born!
In-Reply-To: <3ACFB408.F326CCF3@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227068966.23782.11993257413436978545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

AFTER AIT & NGT, NOW PTT ! After AIT, Saffron researchers are busy
unveiling another `racist Nazi' theory: PTT (Pythagoras Theorem-Theory),
which wrongly gives credit for Pythagoras theorem to Pythagoras :

  "Pythagoras's Theorem was written before he was born, in
   ancient Indian treatises called the Shilpa Sutras.
    The Times,
   http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-60843,00.html
   http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-60856,00.html

 Also, "Electrical energy was not a recent discovery, but was mentioned in
the ancient Vedic texts, along with magnetic and solar energy." and "
Wireless technology was invented by Sir Jagdish Chandra Bose, not Marconi"
So, plenty of `racist Euro-centric' theories to take care of: WET (Western
Electrical Theory), MET (Marconi Electrical Theory) etc.

For more laughs about AIT, PTT, NGT :
http://www.the-hindu.com/2001/01/03/stories/03030007.htm
http://www.ambedkar.org/News/hl/RSSlaunches.htm
http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010101/ifr01033.html
http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2001/01/01/stories/0201000h.htm

Samar




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sun Apr  8 20:15:20 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 13:15:20 -0700
Subject: Idiom and Grammar (and chariots again!)
Message-ID: <161227068988.23782.3786926196851943466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Bhatta writes:

> Dr. Fa[r]mer, the orality, how do you account for that in a translation. For example, if
> you were to read "Do you think that I cannot smash this grape with small of my hand?"
> This can be read with force as well as a lack of force. The multiple dimensions of
> words need to be conveyed to one orally; otherwise, you may never understand the
> sentence proper and could take off on the wrong path.

You are mistaken if you think that comparative historians rely naively on
translations or are oblivious to oral/literate issues of this sort. I spent
nearly a decade editing, translating, and annotating one of the most
abstruse premodern texts ever drawn up for oral debate, involving difficult
issues involving Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew philology. What makes
you think that when I approach Indian texts that I'd lose my rigor?

Subrahmanya writes:

> Could you please explain where there is "war chariot" in 6.75 ?
> I also leafed through Sparreboom's book to find if there is
> anything about 6.75 there and did not find it. It is possible
> I may have missed it.

With all respect, Subrahmanya, read the poem and look at the comments on it
by Geldner and many others (see infra). I'm not interested in pursuing the
chariot issue at present, simply because last year I discussed what I knew
of the pan-Eurasian evidence on it at length with S. Kalyanaraman, K. Elst,
S. Talageri, and N.S. Rajaram (in at least 50 long posts in
IndianCivilization and in a private online forum with M. Witzel, Talageri,
Rajaram, & Frawley, etc.). Most of that discussion revolved around the
non-existence of spoked chariots in the pre-historical eras in which Kak,
Rajaram, Talageri, Frawley, Danino, and other Indian nationalists and their
Western helpers imagine that the RV had its roots. The war use of chariots
doesn't, in fact, interest me much, since I agree with most people (NB:
including M. Witzel) that the movement of RV culture into India was a
question of slow migration and acculturation more than invasion in the
dated Wheeler sense. You are mistaken in labeling Witzel an invasionist on
the basis of a passing colorful reference in one of his two papers in the
1995 Erdosy volume to Vedic "tanks." If you read that paper as a whole, or
any of a half dozen related papers of his, you'd find that Witzel is
anything but an invasionist. (If Michael did not exist, Indian nationalists
would have to invent him -- and they have!)

Briefly on RV 6.75 (the RV hymn to weaponry and the chariot): I don't have
Sparreboom at hand, but the hymn speaks pretty clearly for itself. If
Sparreboom mentions it, I imagine it would be in relation to the reference
in 6.75.8 to the ratha-vaahana -- the wagon/platform/stand (often trans.,
e.g. by Keith, as 'platform,' but apparently etymologically related to
Engl.'wagon') on which the chariot was drawn to battle in late RV times.
Similar carriers are also well-known from non-Indian sources. In India, the
ratha-vaahana took on ritual significance in the mantra period, as we see,
e.g., in Taitt. Samhita 1.8.20, and other post-RV texts. For other
references in post RV texts see Macdonnel-Keith, _Vedic Index_ II, p. 205.
There are also classical discussions by Weber and Geldner. My notes say
that Sparreboom discusses the ratha-vaahana on p. 29, but I don't know
whether he specifically mentions the reference in RV 6.75.8.

As I already noted, I recognize that all of 6.75 is a late RV poem, as was
shown by Oldenberg 1888. I cited this example, as indicated yesterday,
because Talageri claimed that all of Bk. 6 came from the mid 4th - early 3d
millennium, when no chariots of any sort (let alone the sophisticated form
described in RV 6.75) existed anywhere on the planet. But I think there are
many obvious references to early uses of chariots in military operations
(and in cattle rustling, of course!) in much older strata of the family
books. But this isn't an issue that I find controversial, nor is it
pertinent to my current research.

Regards,
Steve Farmer




From attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 13:39:16 2001
From: attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM (S Bhatta)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 13:39:16 +0000
Subject: Idiom and Grammar (and chariots again!)
Message-ID: <161227068970.23782.1333043164922592963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Farmer,

I apologize, but please understand that my concern is your reliance upon translations, which can never convey that which must be communicated orally.

I realize we all must rely on print, but I am afraid your inexperience is being overshadowed by your lack of proficiency in the language.

As for Subrahmanya, you, as it is so easy to do with this contraption, emotionally fired off a response without properly understanding my post.

I am in no way defending 'Dubrahmanya,' as Dr. Witzel as so called him before and no where did i even suggest a hint of support.

As I said, I think it is silly for you to take an authorative position on the subject and to suggest readings to someone when in fact you cannot read the original.


Furthermore you wrote:

Bhatta's apparent claim is that since I'm a comparative
historian and not a Vedic scholar I'm incapable of verifying my evidence

The apparency of this claim resides within your mind Dr. Farmer. You are saying more than I ever thought. As all can see, I pointed out your lack of proficiency in Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise).



You then wrote:
although my copies of
Monier-Williams and of Macdonell's _Vedic Grammar_ are getting a bit worn
by now)

May I suggest Bohtlink und Roth's Sanskrit-Worterbuch (7 volumes); you will probably find these more suitable as many have before you.


You then wrote:
I began looking intensely at Vedic traditions several years ago,attempting to solve some puzzling theoretical questions about textuallayering and processes of canonization posed by my work in premodern
traditions outside India.

Question: How can you perform 'higher criticism' without an understanding of the originals? No translation is an exact equivalent as I am sure you know. How do you know for certain that you are not chasing a wild goose and ignoring the orality of the texts which you are studying?


You continued:
But the fact that I came to Indology late doesn't
mean that I would fall into the amateurish trap (like Talageri) of basing
my opinions about any RV passage (let alone claiming that I had produced an
"invincible" interpretation of the whole text!!) based on Griffith's
Victorian translation or late-ancient sources like the
Anukramanis.

You are alone once again on this one.

And then you wrote:
If you want to do serious work as a comparative historian, you need to be
competent in a half dozen languages at a minimum;

Here you claim serious work is contigent upon competency in language. I agree; this is precisely my point. And I would like once agian ask, how can you without a competency in Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise) do anything but amateurish work (your words).


Yopu wrote:
you are also expected to verify any novel conclusion drawn from translated texts carefully against the originals; but you cannot expect to become fluent in the literally scores of languages that your research may require you to investigate.

Of course not, even 'Sanskritists' are specialized. I doubt your cohort as you have so fondly called Dr. Witzel before, would claim intimate knowledge of the Tantras. But how do you account for the ORALITY of the language and the accuracy of the translation, some of which are based on non-critically edited editions. Please, describe your criteria for the process. Something this delicate could not rely on your subjective whims.


You wrote: Sanskrit idiom & grammar aren't *quite* so unfamiliar if you approach them after years of studying (and producing scholarly translations,in some cases) other premodern I-E languages like Latin & Greek,and can read a half dozen other languages as well.

But if i am correct, you have only dabbled with Sanskrit; so how could it ever be familiar enough to you?



You wrote:
Any trained premodernist can make many valid inferences about the RV (if not an "invincible" interpretation, like Talageri) if he or she has the linguistic tools (as Talageri has not) to consult the existing *scholarly* translations of the RV with notes in German
(Geldner), French (Renou), or Russian (Elizarenkova) -- and is willing to
doublecheck those translations when needed against Monier-Williams, the
_Vedic Indices_ of Macdonell-Keith, etc., and the mass of scholarly studies
in German, French, and other scholarly languages that Talageri hasn't taken
the time to learn.

Dr. Famer, the orality, how do you account for that in a translation. For example, if you were to read "Do you think that I cannot smash this grape with small of my hand?" This can be read with force as well as a lack of force. The multiple dimensions of words need to be conveyed to one orally; otherwise, you may never understand the sentence proper and could take off on the wrong path.


I am sorry! I black out seems to be in the making!! will continue. Will send now before all is lost.

b

_____________________________________________________
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http://bol.rediff.com




From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 17:44:53 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 13:44:53 -0400
Subject: SV: NEW: Racist Newton didn't discover Gravity!
Message-ID: <161227068983.23782.14945901196681004950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Prof Fosse wrote..
>I therefore politely suggest that the quarrel about who invented what
> >first is not a very interesting one. It is far more interesting when >the
>discovery of a natural law of of mathematical principles "take off" >in
>such a way that they become "world-shattering" events.

I have no option but agree.

Isn't the same true of Rgveda? Whereever it originated from, it became an
earth shattering event for residents of India, and it turned into their life
blood, they built stories and mythologies on it, and continue to discover
more even to date; whereas it fails to inspire any one outside their land?
If it is agreed that AIT/OIT are moot points, we can do substantial work
ahead.

Regards
Bhadraiah
_________________________________________________________________
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From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Sun Apr  8 14:33:34 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 15:33:34 +0100
Subject: NEW: Racist Newton didn't discover Gravity!
Message-ID: <161227068975.23782.8430011463572490409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Not to excuse the mangling of history, but to point out some things :

1. That Harappan culture declined for reasons other than Aryan invasions
   can be found in e.g., Jonathan Mark Kenoyer's book, and e.g., the Asia
   Society & Pakistan Govt. exhibition in New York (1997) on the Indus
   Valley civilization.  There are hardly saffronites.

2. From Alberuni, chapter XXVI "So Brahmagupta says : "Scholars have
   declared that the globe of the earth is in the midst of heaven...we
   say the earth on all its sides is the same; all people on earth stand
   upright, and all heavy things fall to the earth by a law of nature..."
   The inverse square law occurred to people other than Newton as well,
   Newton's genius was in being able to use the law to calculate orbits.

3. Pythagoras' Theorem was known much before him. Follow links from :
   http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/DigitalMathArchive/Euclid/java/html/babylon.html
   "There is evidence that Pythagoras' Theorem was discovered very early by
   the Chinese and the Indians (refer to Heath's discussion just after I.47),
   but exactly how early is not known. The earliest tangible record of
   Pythagoras' Theorem comes from Babylonian tablets dating to around
   1000 B.C."  [several hundred years before Pythagoras.]

4. Re: J.C. Bose and Marconi : you may want to look at
   http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1506/15060810.htm
   Marconi used in his experiments a receiver invented by Bose.
   Since then, the IEEE has recognized Bose's contributions
   (there was a feature in Spectrum as well) in wave propagation;
   the new edition of "Antennas" by John D. Kraus (a standard text
   in the field) also references Bose's papers in Chapter One
   (thanks, RP !).

5. The origin of chess is a vexed question, but as far as I know,
   India and China are the front-runners, Persia is not in the picture;
   Persian history itself names chess as an import.

-Arun Gupta




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 15:06:49 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 16:06:49 +0100
Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India
Message-ID: <161227068977.23782.11017542112236735040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

M. Biardeau was the first to recognize the ritual sacrifice
nature of war in the battlefield. Is the "ritual of battle"
in the Mahabharata epic intimately linked with descriptions
like the ones portrayed in Tamil sangam poems composed two
millennia ago?

-----------------
Sangam poem: puRam 26:
 >"... and you quickened the battle
 >  so that kings fell, and you captured
 >their royal drums and spread your fame!
 >and then, with food you had created, you
 >    sacrificed on the killing field,
 >using an oven of crowned heads after pouring
 >    out a torrent of blood
 >into the cooking pot and stirring it with the
 >    ladle of an arm still braceleted!
 >Ce_liya_n, murderous in battle! As Brahmins
 >   of the Four Vedas,
 >calm through the breadth of their knowledge,
 >devoted to restraint, surrounded you
 >and kings carried out your orders,
 >you completed the sacrifice established
 >by tradition! ..."

Dr. V. J. Roebuck wrote:
>Are you *sure* this was meant literally?  It sounds to me like a pretty
>good metaphor for warfare.

Continuing the reply:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R14069

The above poem's original words in Tamil are:

urai cela muracu vauvi
muTi talai aTuppu Aka
pun2al kuruti ulai koLIi
toTi tOL tuTuppin2 tuzanta valciyin2 - puRam 26:7-10

This theme is widely attested in sangam pomes:

a)
poruntA tevvar arinta talai aTuppin2 [...] - puRam 372:5

"you made the field of flesh radiant with your
sacrifice on an oven of severed heads obtained
with toil from enemies who opposed you, with
kUviLam wood the fuel, with ridged guts tumbling,
as a barren sacrifical priestess stirred and turned them
with severed skulls set upon sticks and coked them
up into a ball of food that even animals would refuse
amd the male cook then intoned:
" May the fresh water poured from the burning mouth
   suffice as if for all the guests at a wedding!"
And, he lifted it on high! (Hart & Heifetz)

>?From the Ten Decads, identical theme:
b)
AN talai aNagku aTuppin2
vaya vEntar oL kuruti
cin2am tIyin2 peyarpu pogka
teRal aru kaTu tuppin2
viRal viLagkiya vizu cUrppin2
toTi tOL kai tuTuppu Aka
ATuRRa Un2 cORu
neRi aRinta kaTi vAluvan2
aTi otugki pin2 peyarA
paTaiyOrkku muruku ayara
amar kaTakkum viyan2 tAn2ai - matu. 29-39

c) From CilappatikAram:

pin2 tErk kuravaip pEy ATu paRantalai
muTit talai aTuppil piTart talait tAzi
toTit tOL tuTuppin2 tuzaIya Un2 cORu
maRap pEy vAluvan2 vayin2 aRintu UTTa - Cil. 126:241-4

Observe the word, pEy 'demon, spirit' which is worshipped by
sangam era priests, is given the strange food.

Given that A. Parpola writes that human sacrifices
were done in the IVC,
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0102&L=indology&P=R1923
it's possible that this metaphor (?) has a hoary
memory in it.

Regards,
V. Iyer

_________________________________________________________________________
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From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Sun Apr  8 20:34:13 2001
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 16:34:13 -0400
Subject: tyaja dharmam etc.
In-Reply-To: <3AD0C6D2.D80F3034@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227068990.23782.1213297208508238170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List:

At the end of his article Sex and Yoga, J.M. (then J.L.) Masson quotes this
shloka:

tyaja dharmamadharmaM ca tyaja satyamasatyaM vaa
satyaasatye ubhe tyaktvaa yena tyajasi tattyaja

and gives no reference for it, presumably because it is so famous that it needs
none.  But I need one.  Where is it from?

P. Ernest




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Apr  8 15:32:25 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 17:32:25 +0200
Subject: SV: NEW: Racist Newton didn't discover Gravity!
Message-ID: <161227068980.23782.7238268370494392114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arun Gupta [SMTP:suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET] skrev 8. april 2001 16:34:
> 1. That Harappan culture declined for reasons other than Aryan invasions
>    can be found in e.g., Jonathan Mark Kenoyer's book, and e.g., the Asia
>    Society & Pakistan Govt. exhibition in New York (1997) on the Indus
>    Valley civilization.  There are hardly saffronites.

This has long since been recognized even by the "Invasionists" and is not a
bone of contention.

> 2. From Alberuni, chapter XXVI "So Brahmagupta says : "Scholars have
>    declared that the globe of the earth is in the midst of heaven...we
>    say the earth on all its sides is the same; all people on earth stand
>    upright, and all heavy things fall to the earth by a law of nature..."
>    The inverse square law occurred to people other than Newton as well,
>    Newton's genius was in being able to use the law to calculate orbits.

In general terms, it seems evident to me that any natural law or
mathematical principle can be discovered by anyone anywhere (provided they
have the knack for that sort of thing). We do not have to assume one
specific point of departure for all discoveries and inventions. I strongly
suspect that whereever you find grand architecture, somebody must have
understood something of natural laws and mathematics, even if they did not
write scholarly books on the subject. I therefore politely suggest that the
quarrel about who invented what first is not a very interesting one. It is
far more interesting when the discovery of a natural law of of mathematical
principles "take off" in such a way that they become "world-shattering"
events. And here Newton, as suggested above, is a case in point.

Let me give another example from a different field, "the discovery of
America". It is a fact that Norsemen operating from Greenland discovered
America before Columbus. So what happened? They spent 500 years getting
their timber in America. That's all. End of story. Not much, really. But
when Columbus discovered America, we had one of those "world-shattering"
events. A great rush of people from over here to over there. Indian
civilizations come crushing down under the European onslaught. Millions die
of war and desease. The Americas are taken over by a totally alien culture.
New nations are born, and the US, the world's most powerful superpower
these days, were created. So why bother with Leiv Eirikson at all? He would
only be significant if his discovery prompted Columbus' voyage to the new
world. That has of course been suggested, but it most probably didn't
happen. I think Columbus was quite capable of discovering America without
the help of Leiv Eirikson. The Norse discovery of the Americas is an
historical footnote. The one that matters is Columbus'.

And I politely suggest that this goes for many other "firsts" as well.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 22:20:46 2001
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 18:20:46 -0400
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots   miS  and  miil
Message-ID: <161227068996.23782.8501517766009835829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Someone has asked me if the two sanskrit roots for wink - miS - and - miil -
ultimately come from the same source. Is there a common source to these two
roots?

Many thanks,

Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

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From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 22:25:17 2001
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 18:25:17 -0400
Subject: Ref. for metaphor used by Abhinavagupta
Message-ID: <161227068999.23782.14249086759897034237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Can anyone give me a reference where Abhinavagupta uses the terms -
phalonmukhatA - and - phalAnunmukhatA - as metaphors for prArabdha and
saMcita karma.

Many thanks,


Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 18:16:00 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 19:16:00 +0100
Subject: naRRiNai 310 translated by G. Hart
Message-ID: <161227068986.23782.16512826235967611263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Tamilists,

I wrote letters to Tamil professors at Trivandrum and
aged Tamil pulavars in India who were involved in the Murray Rajam
effort that published old Tamil texts in a pioneering way.
Ie. with the sandhi and metrics broken, and words printed
as separate units with the addition punctuation marks.

They agree that naRRiNai 310 and akanAn2URu 106 are
poems with totally opposite themes. kaLiRu in aka. 106
and kan2Ru in naR. 310 should be compared with the
'etukait toTai' used in the respective poems.
They informed me that early in the 20th century
this 'etukait toTai' argument was used to decide
upon the name of the great poet, ParaNar.
vE. vEGkaTarAjulu ireTTiyAr, Prof. at Madras university
showed that ParaNar, even if he was from the PaaNar kulam,
had the name "paraNar" and not "paaNar". This
is evident from the song by AuvaiyAr where she
employs 'etukait toTai'.

   paraNan2 pATin2an2 man2 kol maRRu nI
   muraN miku kOvalUr nURi nin2  - puRa 99:12-13

It's possible to connect the second letter, "Li"
in kaLiRu with that of oLiRu and veLiRu in aka. 106:

   oLiRu vAL tAn2ai koRRa ceziyan2
   veLiRu il kaRpin2 maNTu amar aTutoRum
   kaLiRu peRu valci pANan2 eRiyum  - aka. 106:10-12

OTOH, In the naRRiNai 310, a consonant, "l" is the etukai
both before and after.

   collalai kol O nI E vallai
   kan2Ru peRu valci pANan2 kaiyatu ai
   vaL uyir taNNumai pOla
   uL yAtu um illatu Or pOrvai am col E - naR. 310:8-11

kan2Ru (possibly from the root, kal-, cf. pol/pon2, cil/cin2)
fits with the etukai consonant, "l" prior and after
to naR. 310:9. The "empty words" are again a theme
employed in naR. 380.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Sun Apr  8 14:10:37 2001
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 19:40:37 +0530
Subject: queries
Message-ID: <161227068973.23782.6545266409696883131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

1.What is a war chariot?
2. How does it differ from a peace chariot?
3.What type are the chariots divinities like Indra and Surya ride?
4.Are their chariots as old as the Rgveda?

Rajesh Kochhar

PS. While answering these questions please do not mention any living persons.




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Mon Apr  9 03:41:43 2001
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 20:41:43 -0700
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots   miS  and  miil
In-Reply-To: <F143YILoygXLsxpTljB000013b2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227069006.23782.4616866539468330278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Harry Spier <harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Dear list members,
>
> Someone has asked me if the two sanskrit roots for wink - miS - and - miil -
> ultimately come from the same source. Is there a common source to these two
> roots?

This is an extremely interesting question that connects IE and Dravidian
families.

Ultimately the root may look something like *viz
the -z close to the Tamil retroflex liquid z.

Dravidian has the root "viz" or "miz" meaning "to open the eyes" or "see".
Basically there are three phonetic processes in operation here that connect viz
and miS/mIl.

1. the alternation between a labiodental and labial:  v <-> m
2. alternation between retroflexes: z <-> S.
3. simplification: z <-> l

I am really not suggesting that it is a borrowal from Dravidian.
It is common to both IE and Dravidian.
Compare the "European" roots vis-, vid-.


DEDR entry #5429:
Ta. verb: vizi = to open the eyes, wake from sleep, gaze, shine, be clear;
    noun: (also mizi) eye, eyeball, knowledgem wisdom
    muLi = to open the eyes

Ka. miL, miLa = blinking;
    miLmiLan2e = a staring manner
Tulu: buLAvu = to open as the eyes
Konda: biRp = to blink
Kuwi. miNi miNi sini ki- = to look carefully
Cf. 5084 Go. mi-

And
DEDR #5084 states:
Go. mi- = to open the eyes
Pe. meh (mest-) = id., see
Mand. meh (meht-) = to open the eyes.
Kui. mehpa = to look, see, observe, perceive...
Kuwi. meh'nai = to look, see;
      mespu = seeing, sight, vision;


We can see that the European vis-  and vid- also are related to miS/mIl by
nearly the same phonetic processes. This time z <-> S <-> D/d/ and z<->l.

Actually these roots arise from the nodular/globular nature of the eye
which can be inferred from studying the Dravidian scheme for the visual
etyma.

The same lexical pattern underlies the other major class of visual
etyma in IE and Dravidian: the *kn class.


Regards
P. Chandrasekaran.




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From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr  8 22:16:45 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 01 23:16:45 +0100
Subject: naRRiNai 310 translated by G. Hart
Message-ID: <161227068993.23782.4937639639690380522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It's rather common for paaNan (male) and viRali (female)
bards to act as go-betweens for the hero and make
connections with prostititutes. Hence, sangam poets
employ the paaNan or viRali musician motifs when they
sing of infidelity.

1. In Na_r_ri.nai 30, the hero returns to his first wife
after a long stay with harlots. Like the bee hops from
flower to flower.

   What Her friend told to the returning Husband

   I've seen, Cheiftain, with my own eyes,
   the scene in the street where the PaaNan walks
   with the music of his lute like the hum of bees!

2. Na_r_ri.nai 100 where the prostitute compares the
leather of the drum shaking during festive beatings with
that of the hero's tremors when his wife was told of his
disloyalty. Compare the leather cover of the drum in
Na_r. 310.

3. Na_r_r_i.nai 340. The hero is compared with the
vaa.lai fish frolicking in the paddy fields and which
gets beaten by the farmers. But it jumps on the bunds
and enjoys spending time in the vANan's village.
The symbolism is that he, guided by the pANan bard,
spends all his time and money with one prostitute,
even when solicited by other women.

4. Na_r_ri.nai 360. Female bards act as go-betweens,
their spirited dance with the leather drum playings
is used in a unique way.

   Just like the female minstrel who danced
   All night in the festival grounds
   Till the paste on the eye of the drum
   (Coats on the leather skin of the drum)
   Which is cast off, neglected
   When the festival draws to a close,
       You enjoyed the fresh appeal
       Of prostitutes last night,
       Discarding them for newer pastures now.

5. Na_r_ri.nai 380. The PaaNan bard pleads admission
to the Hero, but the First Lady rebukes the musician.
Both the messenger PaaNan and the Chief denied admission.

   We may not be liked by the Chief
   who likes to spend time with the harlots;
   Do not stand, bard, in  a reverent posture
   Strumming your lute with gold-hued strings,
   An instrument in which you are the expert!
   Take your friend, the chief of the plains
   With you, O bard, wherever he wants to go!
   Stop your singing at our door!
   For you cannot hope to achieve your ends
   By such tactics; the horses bedecked
   Are impatient with their long stay.
   Please remember in a matter so serious
   and our heart doesn't lie, your empty words
   Are not likely to make any difference.

Thanks,
V. Iyer





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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Apr  8 23:18:58 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 01:18:58 +0200
Subject: SV: tyaja dharmam etc.
Message-ID: <161227069001.23782.5566077341009429409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Phillip Ernest [SMTP:phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA] skrev 8. april 2001 22:34:
> At the end of his article Sex and Yoga, J.M. (then J.L.) Masson quotes this
> shloka:
>
> tyaja dharmamadharmaM ca tyaja satyamasatyaM vaa
> satyaasatye ubhe tyaktvaa yena tyajasi tattyaja
>
> and gives no reference for it, presumably because it is so famous that it needs
> none.  But I need one.  Where is it from?

The following variant is from the Mahabharata:

0123180441 tyaja dharmam adharmam ca'ubhe satya anRte tyaja |
0123180443 ubhe satya anRte tyaktvA yena tyajasi tam tyaja ||

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Mon Apr  9 08:19:48 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 01:19:48 -0700
Subject: Idiom and Grammar (and chariots again!)
Message-ID: <161227069010.23782.658872277596424625.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Bhatta writes:

> But each one of those languages is a world in and of itself unless you are
> you suggesting an essentialist position and thereby wiping away the
> distinctness of each language, culture, time, author, etc. the list goes on.
>
> Is this so?
>
> The universality of language, is it that which qualifies to leave your area
> to wander into another?

You are invited to point out all errors in evidence that I make on this
List, Mr. Bhatta -- in Sanskrit or on any other matters. Curiously, none of
your posts have ever mentioned any. Now that we agree that I'm a
comparative historian and not a Vedicist, is there a *specific* Indological
issue that you want to discuss on the List? I'm always eager to learn from
knowledgeable scholars.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Mon Apr  9 01:47:56 2001
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 02:47:56 +0100
Subject: Credibility of Criticism (Re: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem )
Message-ID: <161227069004.23782.9355961603845555170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is fair for people who disagree with RSS to criticize RSS.
But to have some effect, the criticism should be credible.
People ought to do some homework.

The Rediff Report says
(http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/01rss.htm)
"The booklet also claims that Hindus invented the number
system as well as the decimal system besides giving the
concept of shunya (zero)."

That look like a good claim to me. I don't see a reason
to ridicule it.

I am aware that some concepts related to the decimal system
were discovered by others. However the decimal number system
as we know it, certainly was invented by the "Hindus" (i.e.
Indians).

Often it can be very hard to decide who was first, and who
was influenced by whom. I know quite a few example in sciences
and engineering where the most credited inventor wasn't really
the first one. Regarding invention of computers, we know that
Eckert and Mauchly of ENIAC fame took some of the ideas from
less-famous Iowa State University professor John Atanasoff.
Dr. Abbas, being a researcher himself should know that.

We know that Christopher Columbus wasn't the first one to
reach America. An Indian having landed there may be a pure
speculation (maybe there was a Chinese). But Aryabhatta
and Sushruta are acknowledged by scholars to have made
original contributions.

While I am an admirer of Pythagoras (many of his thoughts
resemble principles prevailing in India), it is not impossible
that the "Pythagoras Theorem" may actually have been invented
by somone else. [Best known of Kabir's bhajans were probably
written by someone else.]

I haven't checked the details, and haven't checked that it was
first, but the creation of the artificial lake Sudarshana in Maurya
period is right. There is an inscription at Junagarh of about
150 CE mentioning about its repair by Rudradamana I.

Yashwant




From attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Mon Apr  9 05:47:34 2001
From: attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM (S Bhatta)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 05:47:34 +0000
Subject: Idiom and Grammar (and chariots again!)
Message-ID: <161227069008.23782.7823313848858979329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Farmer writes:

I spent nearly a decade editing, translating, and annotating one of the most abstruse premodern texts ever drawn up for oral debate, involving difficult issues involving Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew philology.

That is wonderful; you must, and should, be quite proud of yourself.

But each one of those languages is a world in and of itself unless you are you suggesting an essentialist position and thereby wiping away the distinctness of each language, culture, time, author, etc. the list goes on.

Is this so?

The universality of language, is it that which qualifies to leave your area to wander into another?



Dr. Farmer wrote:
What makes you think that when I approach Indian texts that I'd lose my rigor?

Your ignorance of Sanskrit Dr. Farmer.

Sanskrit is not Latin, Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew.

Sir, I am not doubting your aptitude as a comparative historian in the languages which you have studied.

But then again I am not stating that you are a learned man in that area either in that I have no way of judging you in that that is not my area of expertise.

In order for me to judge you, I must first have an intimate, a superior, comprehension of that which you are studying.

Is that not so?

Must i not know the taste of sugar before I can say "this is sugar."

But you do not know the sweet taste of Sanskrit Dr. Farmer, and thus how can you state a position without this knowledge?

Have you no respect for language, culture, and time?

Sanskrit, like all other languages, is serious business and requires more than a reliance upon translations Sir.

SB












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From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Apr  9 11:17:06 2001
From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 07:17:06 -0400
Subject: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem written before he was born!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0104081228030.15532-100000@hpc21.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227069012.23782.17616428604121024081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Samar Abbas,

Do you know what you are talking about or you just hate
anything credited to India?  I thought you had some
scholarly aptitude.  It looks more political aptitude.
Sorry to say this.

Bijoy Misra


On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Samar Abbas wrote:

> AFTER AIT & NGT, NOW PTT ! After AIT, Saffron researchers are busy
> unveiling another `racist Nazi' theory: PTT (Pythagoras Theorem-Theory),
> which wrongly gives credit for Pythagoras theorem to Pythagoras :
>
>   "Pythagoras's Theorem was written before he was born, in
>    ancient Indian treatises called the Shilpa Sutras.
>     The Times,
>    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-60843,00.html
>    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-60856,00.html
>
>  Also, "Electrical energy was not a recent discovery, but was mentioned in
> the ancient Vedic texts, along with magnetic and solar energy." and "
> Wireless technology was invented by Sir Jagdish Chandra Bose, not Marconi"
> So, plenty of `racist Euro-centric' theories to take care of: WET (Western
> Electrical Theory), MET (Marconi Electrical Theory) etc.
>
> For more laughs about AIT, PTT, NGT :
> http://www.the-hindu.com/2001/01/03/stories/03030007.htm
> http://www.ambedkar.org/News/hl/RSSlaunches.htm
> http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010101/ifr01033.html
> http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2001/01/01/stories/0201000h.htm
>
> Samar
>




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Apr  9 14:17:08 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 07:17:08 -0700
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots miS and miil
Message-ID: <161227069014.23782.6958472656435607822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Drav. m-/v- is common: maNNAn (malayalam) and vaNNAn (tamil) 'washerman'.
maNNAn < maNNutal 'to wash'
K. Zvelebil, Dravidian linguistics: An introduction, 1990, p.10
"Intervocalic and initial m and v are in contrast. However, they
also are in widespread alternation in the southern group of languages.
Doublets exist in many languages to a great degree; it is often
"difficult to ascertain which of the two is historically original"
(Krishnamurti 1961, p.43). Cf. Tamil vatuvai; KannaDa mada 'wedding'
(DEDR 4694; this indicates that the authors of DEDR would rather
consider the *m- original); Tamil kaval 'be troubled': telugu gamanamu
'attention' (DEDR 1328; *-v- original?). Zvelebil quotes instances
which show that this m/v 'confusion' continues in Tamil dialects
(and even in the literary norm, cf. Tamil vAn2am:mAn2am 'sky',
vIcai:mIcai moustache; in addition, it occurs in loanwords,
cf. Skt mRga > Tamil mirukam/virukam 'animal').
For details, see Zvelebil, CDP 1970, 125-8.)"

Are the m-/v- word-initial changes common in IE?
For example, are European words like vision, video
related to miS,mIl? Or, they are independent??

Regards,
SM


> --- Harry Spier <harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>  > Someone has asked me if the two sanskrit roots for wink - miS - and - miil
>  > ultimately come from the same source. Is there a common source to these
>  > two roots?
>
>  This is an extremely interesting question that connects IE and Dravidian
>  families.
>
>  Ultimately the root may look something like *viz
>  the -z close to the Tamil retroflex liquid z.
>
>  Dravidian has the root "viz" or "miz" meaning "to open the eyes" or "see".
>  Basically there are three phonetic processes in operation here that connect
> viz
>  and miS/mIl.
>
>  1. the alternation between a labiodental and labial:  v <-> m
>  2. alternation between retroflexes: z <-> S.
>  3. simplification: z <-> l
>
>  I am really not suggesting that it is a borrowal from Dravidian.
>  It is common to both IE and Dravidian.
>  Compare the "European" roots vis-, vid-.
>
>
>  DEDR entry #5429:
>  Ta. verb: vizi = to open the eyes, wake from sleep, gaze, shine, be clear;
>      noun: (also mizi) eye, eyeball, knowledgem wisdom
>      muLi = to open the eyes
>
>  Ka. miL, miLa = blinking;
>      miLmiLan2e = a staring manner
>  Tulu: buLAvu = to open as the eyes
>  Konda: biRp = to blink
>  Kuwi. miNi miNi sini ki- = to look carefully
>  Cf. 5084 Go. mi-
>
>  And
>  DEDR #5084 states:
>  Go. mi- = to open the eyes
>  Pe. meh (mest-) = id., see
>  Mand. meh (meht-) = to open the eyes.
>  Kui. mehpa = to look, see, observe, perceive...
>  Kuwi. meh'nai = to look, see;
>        mespu = seeing, sight, vision;
>
>
>  We can see that the European vis-  and vid- also are related to miS/mIl by
>  nearly the same phonetic processes. This time z <-> S <-> D/d/ and z<->l.
>
>  Actually these roots arise from the nodular/globular nature of the eye
>  which can be inferred from studying the Dravidian scheme for the visual
>  etyma.
>
>  The same lexical pattern underlies the other major class of visual
>  etyma in IE and Dravidian: the *kn class.
>

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From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr  9 14:24:09 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 10:24:09 -0400
Subject: Idiom and Grammar (and chariots again!)
Message-ID: <161227069016.23782.16781054360625260083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>S. Bhatta wrote..
>The universality of language, is it that which qualifies to leave your
> >area to wander into another?

We need to support all inter-disciplinary approaches. Just in case Sanskrit
is not the mother of all subjects, scholarly input from other subjects is
indispensable. For instance who can formulate a theory about war without
ever acknowledging Adam Smith and his work re: the "invisible hand" and rise
and fall of civilizations?

Human civilizations or any other colonies of life live on a very simple
principle : it is called Anando brahma or what Adam Smith explained "self
interest". Then why do wars happen? That is because capital always
concentrates as people invest only in avenues that are most profitable, just
as consciousness and happiness always concentrate as indra. This results in
deprivation of capital for other avenues, leading to conflicts and wars;
just as agni takes the brunt of pain and suffering and fights back (having
been a victim of gods). "Ideally speaking" the whole subject of veda can be
rediscovered using this one principle of Anando brahma because it is all
about collective bargaining of gods for soma.

To suggest that someone fought with one hand, selectively passing
manuscripts like vedas with the other (but holding back other stories like
Genesis etc) and sharing sperm between the blows, doesn't seem to go well
Adam Smith.. any ideas?

Regards
Bhadraiah
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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Apr  9 16:07:41 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 17:07:41 +0100
Subject: Credibility of Criticism (Re: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem )
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001040902475735@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069018.23782.17801080556892282287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Yashwant Malaiya wrote:

> While I am an admirer of Pythagoras (many of his thoughts
> resemble principles prevailing in India), it is not impossible
> that the "Pythagoras Theorem" may actually have been invented
> by somone else.

It is a commonplace for indologists specializing in jyotisa that the
right-triangle theorem was known in Baudhayana's sulbasutra.  Staal has
recently made some extremely interesting observations about the details of
Baudhayana's statement of the theorem, which is more general than
Pythagoras's, and applies not only to squares on sides, but also, for
example, to hemispheres.  Baudhayana, however, shows no awareness of the
generality of his own phrasing, and it looks as though he intended to be
talking specifically about triangles.

The stuff about Baudhayana is very old information for indologists.  Goes
back to Jolly, I think, or perhaps Jacobi.  Staal's discoveries are new.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Mon Apr  9 18:01:43 2001
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 19:01:43 +0100
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots miS and miil
Message-ID: <161227069020.23782.10123338936027947899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:17:08 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan
<smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>Drav. m-/v- is common: maNNAn (malayalam) and vaNNAn (tamil) 'washerman'.
>maNNAn < maNNutal 'to wash'
>K. Zvelebil, Dravidian linguistics: An introduction, 1990, p.10
>"Intervocalic and initial m and v are in contrast. However, they
>also are in widespread alternation in the southern group of languages.
>Doublets exist in many languages to a great degree; it is often
..
>
>Are the m-/v- word-initial changes common in IE?
>For example, are European words like vision, video
>related to miS,mIl? Or, they are independent??

The answer to that question may be expected to have a bearing on the
etymology of Skt. vid > veda.


It is also worth drawing attention to similarity of  pairs of Skt. and
Drav. roots related to vision, winking, protection and knowledge:

Skt. miS                 Dr. vizi/mizi
Skt. mIL                 Dr. vizi/miz/miL
Skt. dRz                 Dr. teri
Skt. pA (stem pAl)       Dr. pAr
Skt. kSaN                Dr. kaN
Skt. kaN                 Dr. kaN
                         Dr. kA (to watch, protect)




There is a systematic extension of the roots in both groups
from vision to protection and knowledge.

For example
------------
vizi
otl vizi vizi 02 1. eye; 2. eye-ball; 3. knowledge; wisdom


vizi-ttal
otl vizi-ttal vizi-ttal 01 1. to open the eyes; 2. to wake from sleep; 3.
to watch; to be vigilant; to be wide awake; 4. to look at attentively; 5.
to gaze, stare; 6. to shine; 7. to be clear; 8. to be alive
-------

teri-tal
otl teri-tal teri-tal 01 1. to be seen, perceived, ascertained by the
senses or mind; to become evident;2. to be understood, intelligible, clear;
3. to possess the power of sight; 4. to be conscious, as of one's guilt; 1.
to investigate, test, ascertain, enquire; 2. to know, understand; 3. to
select, choose; 4. to learn through lstening; 5. to sift
----------------

Has the Skt. root vid "to know" has lost its original physiological sense
of "to see"?

Regards,
P. Chandrasekaran.




From tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK  Mon Apr  9 18:17:03 2001
From: tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 20:17:03 +0200
Subject: Credibility of Criticism (Re: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem )
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104091658310.16828-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069022.23782.15738376868463538755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 9 Apr 01, at 17:07, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> [...] Staal has
> recently made some extremely interesting observations about the details of
> Baudhayana's statement of the theorem, which is more general than
> Pythagoras's, and applies not only to squares on sides, but also, for
> example, to hemispheres. [...]

I was not aware of these observations by Staal, but it sounds very
interesting.  Is it possible that you could provide a reference to
where Staal has written about this topic?

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Tue Apr 10 03:28:39 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 20:28:39 -0700
Subject: Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069031.23782.12707339735620843452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya writes:

> 6.75 speaks nothing about a "indo-european war chariot" ?
> Is it right for a scholar to assume that any generic wheeled contraption
> mentioned in the RV is a "fast two wheeled indo-european war chariot" ?

Totally ridiculous. 6.75 is an *explicit* hymn to war weaponry. 6.75.7
gives vivid images of enemies being trampled by the chariot horses. (Bad
traffic problems in Rgveda Land?) 6.75.8, where we find the ratha-vaahana,
6.75.9, and other verses following contain repeated references to weapons
and to images of war. What we find there is hardly any "generic wheeled
contraption."

NB that the words "fast two wheeled indo-european chariot" masquerading as
a quotation in Subrahmanya's post are *not* my words. Subrahmanya can
apparently attribute made-up words to me as easily as he can imagine a
"generic wheeled contraption[s]" in one of the most famous war hymns in the
whole of the RV.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr  9 19:39:00 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 20:39:00 +0100
Subject: Jain Bhakti (was: quiry)
Message-ID: <161227069024.23782.409768406671672726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
Can anyone tell me the reference of the following work?
J. Cort: Expanding the Field of Vision: Bhakti in the early Jain
Tradition. It is mentioned by Olle Qvarnstrom (IIJ 41 (1998) p.48,
footnote 28) as forthcoming without any details and I haven't been
able to find it.
>>>

Contact Prof. John Cort. His email: cort at denison.edu
When I got a preprint of this article, he mentioned that
it will appear in the jl., History of Religions.
As I recall, Cort uses some published data from Tamil bhakti
poetry.

But:
zrAvakas and bhakti-like rituals occur much
earlier in Tamil sangam poetry. Near that passage, there
is a reference to another paLLi which is assigned to belong to
the Buddhists by a medieval commentator. Also, note that
many earliest Tamil inscriptions are donative records to
Jain monks.

Have you seen Cort, Open boundaries: Jain communities and culture in
Indian history. SUNY, 1998

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 10 02:51:10 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 21:51:10 -0500
Subject: , Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069029.23782.123307545757921781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

First a couple of issues in response to S.Farmer:

6.75 speaks nothing about a "indo-european war chariot" ?
Is it right for a scholar to assume that any generic wheeled contraption
mentioned in the RV is a "fast two wheeled indo-european war chariot" ?

pg 29 of Sparreboom contains nothing about the RV.
Infact Sparreboom after discussing a passage from the
Baudhayana srauta sutra and explaining that a rathavaahana was moveable
stand to hold the chariot - writes: "It may be considered strange that
a light two wheeled vehicle is transported on another car.
Could a chariot, fit for battle or a race not be driven to the
scene of action by itself ?"

Then Sparreboom goes onto speculate that maybe the race chariot
was disassembled when not in use !  - In a footnote it is then
admitted that "there is no explicit reference to
its dismantling".

Is this the kind of speculation that is given as reference
for evidence of a war chariot ?


>Steve Farmer wrote:
>Now that we agree that I'm a
>comparative historian and not a Vedicist, is there a *specific*
> >Indological issue that you want to discuss on the List? I'm always
>eager to learn from knowledgeable scholars.
>

Well how about pointing out the evidence where you have
found a "indo european war chariot" and the criteria you
have used to identify it as a indo-european war chariot ?

Or

How about answering the following questions that Dr.Kochhar asked ?

1.What is a war chariot?
2.How does it differ from a peace chariot?
3.What type are the chariots divinities like Indra and Surya ride?
4.Are their chariots as old as the Rgveda?


Regards,
Subrahmanya





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From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 10 04:05:10 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 01 23:05:10 -0500
Subject: Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069033.23782.16435623931840761023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>S.Farmer wrote:
>Totally ridiculous. 6.75 is an *explicit* hymn to war weaponry. 6.75.7
>gives vivid images of enemies being trampled by the chariot horses.

How does - trampling by horses -  give any information about the
kind of chariot ?
Isnt the chariot the point of our discussion ?

>(Bad traffic problems in Rgveda Land?) 6.75.8, where we find the
>ratha-vaahana, 6.75.9, and other verses following contain repeated
>references to weapons and to images of war. What we find there is hardly
>any "generic wheeled contraption."

My question remains - any wheeled vehicle could have been used
how does one draw any more conclusions ?

Let us get back to the issue -
I have already given you a quotation from Sparreboom which indicates
that there were many kinds of wheeled vehicles already existing
in IVC before the coming of the Aryans.

I am assuming that you think that the two-wheeled fast chariot
was brought in by the incoming Aryans and that is the kind
of chariot mentioned in 6.75

If so, my question to you is - how do you know what kind of vehicle is being
used in 6.75 ?

If you think that is not the case that is fine too - but
please give me an example in the RV where one can identify a
kind of chariot that has been brought in by the Aryans as opposed to a
indigenous wheeled vehicle of the IVC people.

Also, I will also greatly appreciate your response to Dr.Kochhar's
questions.

Thank you.

Regards,
Subrahmanya
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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Tue Apr 10 07:28:33 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 00:28:33 -0700
Subject: Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069038.23782.16166719417280080466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya writes:

> I am assuming that you think that the two-wheeled fast chariot
> was brought in by the incoming Aryans and that is the kind
> of chariot mentioned in 6.75

Your assumption is wrong, Subrahmanya. I haven't said anything about the
origins of these war chariot. You asked for an example in the RV of a war
chariot and I pointed to an obvious one, found in a famous hymn used for
ritualistic military purposes in later RV times. The simplistic image of
Aryans sweeping into India in chariots of this sort is alien to my way of
thinking. The technology clearly evolved over time.

> Also, I will also greatly appreciate your response to Dr.Kochhar's
> questions.

You mean these? You are invited to answer them yourself, since they weren't
addressed to me:

>  1. What is a war chariot?
>  2. How does it differ from a peace chariot?
>  3. What type are the chariots divinities like Indra and Surya ride?
>  4. Are their chariots as old as the Rgveda?

To do them justice, in any event, would take a small book. What does it
*mean* to ask if something *found* in the Rgveda is "as old as the Rgveda"?
As old as the earliest levels of the family books? As old as the youngest
strata in Mandala 10? As old as the final interpolations before the
so-called Sakalyan redaction, in the mid first millennium BCE? That's a big
chunk of time to consider.

The chariot issue is of interest to me only because it helps assign an
earliest possible date to the oldest RV strata, demonstrating the
impossibility of the great antiquity assigned to the book by many Indian
nationalists. From the standpoint of my own research, far more interesting
than its early dates are the dates of the canonization of the RV (and
indeed of all four Vedas) near the middle of the first millennium -- in the
same centuries that similar "fixed" canons were forming in the Middle East,
Greece, Persia, and China. Say something interesting about *why* so many
base traditions became "fixed" in Eurasia c. the 6th - 4th centuries BCE
and you'll get my rapt attention. The answer to that question cannot come
if you limit your view narrowly to study of Indian traditions.

I have continued this discussion so far only because I've been addressed by
name. This is my last permitted post for the next 24 hours, and the last I
can make in the thread.

S. Farmer




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Tue Apr 10 01:25:40 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 03:25:40 +0200
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots miS and miil
Message-ID: <161227069026.23782.18325116656582695727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(a) PIE had no word-initial variation of *m-/*v-.
(b) It is very hard to prove that Skt. vid- "know" ever fully lost
its linkage to "see". Grassmann and others list TWO vid- roots already
for Vedic, but cannot really separate the two. A very comparable
situation in Ancient Greek, where (*v-)oida (Grecists may forgive
my exotic spelling, but no HTML code for the u with the subscript...)
corresponds precisely to Skt. veda < *voida and also never really
lost its connection to the root (*v-)id- "see", as in eidon "I saw"
< *e-vid-om etc.
In German there has been a strong semantic shift towards "know",
e.g. Modern High German "ich wei?" (Dialects still have "woi?")
(originally a perfect, too!), "wissen" (root *vid-), but the old meaning
"see" is still there in semantic traces such as in "ge-wiss" ("certain",
i.e. clearly visible).
(I am skipping other IE branches.)

These parallels seem to point to an already PIE situation where "to see",
"to find", "to have seen/found" and "to know/be aware of"
are a semantic continuum covered by the single root *vid- and its
perfect formation *void-.
In other words: it seems the Skt. ambivalence was already there in PIE
and radiated out fairly similarly into other IE branches as well.

Yours,
Gunthard

Gunthard Mueller
gm at e-ternals.com






Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:17:08 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan
> <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> >Drav. m-/v- is common: maNNAn (malayalam) and vaNNAn (tamil) 'washerman'.
> >maNNAn < maNNutal 'to wash'
> >K. Zvelebil, Dravidian linguistics: An introduction, 1990, p.10
> >"Intervocalic and initial m and v are in contrast. However, they
> >also are in widespread alternation in the southern group of languages.
> >Doublets exist in many languages to a great degree; it is often
> ..
> >
> >Are the m-/v- word-initial changes common in IE?
> >For example, are European words like vision, video
> >related to miS,mIl? Or, they are independent??
>
> The answer to that question may be expected to have a bearing on the
> etymology of Skt. vid > veda.
>
> It is also worth drawing attention to similarity of  pairs of Skt. and
> Drav. roots related to vision, winking, protection and knowledge:
>
> Skt. miS                 Dr. vizi/mizi
> Skt. mIL                 Dr. vizi/miz/miL
> Skt. dRz                 Dr. teri
> Skt. pA (stem pAl)       Dr. pAr
> Skt. kSaN                Dr. kaN
> Skt. kaN                 Dr. kaN
>                          Dr. kA (to watch, protect)
>
> There is a systematic extension of the roots in both groups
> from vision to protection and knowledge.
>
> For example
> ------------
> vizi
> otl vizi vizi 02 1. eye; 2. eye-ball; 3. knowledge; wisdom
>
> vizi-ttal
> otl vizi-ttal vizi-ttal 01 1. to open the eyes; 2. to wake from sleep; 3.
> to watch; to be vigilant; to be wide awake; 4. to look at attentively; 5.
> to gaze, stare; 6. to shine; 7. to be clear; 8. to be alive
> -------
>
> teri-tal
> otl teri-tal teri-tal 01 1. to be seen, perceived, ascertained by the
> senses or mind; to become evident;2. to be understood, intelligible, clear;
> 3. to possess the power of sight; 4. to be conscious, as of one's guilt; 1.
> to investigate, test, ascertain, enquire; 2. to know, understand; 3. to
> select, choose; 4. to learn through lstening; 5. to sift
> ----------------
>
> Has the Skt. root vid "to know" has lost its original physiological sense
> of "to see"?
>
> Regards,
> P. Chandrasekaran.




From george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE  Tue Apr 10 05:40:58 2001
From: george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (George Baumann)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 07:40:58 +0200
Subject: Ivo Fiser article, Kamasutra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.31.0104071912010.29798-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069036.23782.10486390993639771164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Cahill,

In regard to your request for an article by Ivo Fiser on the text
history of the Kamasutra I know only of the following one:
Paali vinaya and Sanskrit kaama-shaastra in the Festschrift Anthony
Kennedy Warder. This has been published in the collected essays
entitled South Asian Studies Papers = Studies in Buddhism, vol.
5(1993). The article is on pp 57-65.
Perhaps this might be what you are looking for.

Regards,

George Baumann



> Date:          Sat, 7 Apr 2001 19:22:58 -0500
> Reply-to:      Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> From:          "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>
> Subject:       Ivo Fiser article, Kamasutra
> To:            INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

> Indologists (and others),
>
>    Ivo Fiser, the author of *Indian erotics of the oldest period* (Praha:
> 1966), contributed an article on the text history of the Kamasutra to a
> European journal (WZKS) sometime between 1991-1996 if memory serves.  I'd
> appreciate the full reference if anyone has it.
>
> best,
> Tim Cahill
>
> Assistant Professor
> Religious Studies Dept.
> Loyola University
> New Orleans, LA  70118
> ph. (504) 865-3183
>
___________________________________________________________

Dr. G. Baumann
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
D-72016 Tuebingen
Tel.:  +7071-2972587
Fax:   +7071-293123
___________________________________________________________




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Apr 10 13:03:59 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 09:03:59 -0400
Subject: Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
In-Reply-To: <F9758ircfI7hiSkS7gR00001b55@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227069046.23782.14004721599946525660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya has not done his homework yet:

He has not even checked the text of RV 6.75.
Small hint: perhaps he can explain to us what kind of recreational generic
vehicle (ratha) is used in 6.75.7 to trample down (ava-kram) with the
forelegs (prapad) of horses the enemies  (amitra), and kill (ksi) the
enemies (zatru).

Not a sportive practise then, or now -- nor in old Greece, Rome, etc.

Apart from this late additional hymn (but most "hoary" according to
Talageri 2000, for which see EJVS 7-2), there is a host of materials that I
have listed recently. SuB. will have to check it,in Rgveda, Avestan,
Hittite, Greek, Roman, and Celtic texts, then come back. He has not done
this litle homework but always shifts the objective and asks new questions
instead.

This time about the vehicles of the Indus Valley Civ. --
Well, he should not *ask* us, but *show* himself where there is a horse
drawn, 2-wheeled, spoke-wheeled, CHARIOT in any "indigenous" Indus
depiction, or as an object?   I do not mean, of course, Rajaram's horse
drawing Kalayanaraman's chariot (as depicted on the seal shown on the cover
of Frontline, Oct. 13, according to them!).
Nor a simple, heavy, full wheel ox waggon/bullock cart.

Once he has done his homework, he will have the answer to his questions:

>My question remains - any wheeled vehicle could have been used
>how does one draw any more conclusions ?
>If so, my question to you is - how do you know what kind of vehicle is being
>used in 6.75 ?

>in the RV where one can identify a
>kind of chariot that has been brought in by the Aryans as opposed to a
>indigenous wheeled vehicle of the IVC people.


In the meantime he should not bother us with shifting questions, constantly
diverting the discussion etc.,

He is welcome back after some self-study. The indexes and dictionaries to
find out are easily available. Then, it will only take a little Sanskrit,
Avestan, Greek, etc., reading....



PS: Lars Fosse is of course entirely right about the rathavaahana vehicle
transporting the light (c. 30 kg) and vulnerable ratha. A ratha is used in
sport and battle on even ground, not for long distance travel (and
certainly that not across the Khyber, as some always facetiously maintain
to 'disprove' any sort of movement into the subcontinent of Indo-Aryan
speaking tribes).
For heavy ground there was the vipatha (AV).

========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Apr 10 08:33:35 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 10:33:35 +0200
Subject: SV: , Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069040.23782.17483439237571948059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya S. [SMTP:subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 10. april 2001 04:51:
> pg 29 of Sparreboom contains nothing about the RV.
> Infact Sparreboom after discussing a passage from the
> Baudhayana srauta sutra and explaining that a rathavaahana was moveable
> stand to hold the chariot - writes: "It may be considered strange that
> a light two wheeled vehicle is transported on another car.
> Could a chariot, fit for battle or a race not be driven to the
> scene of action by itself ?"

I can't help pointing out that even the modern "war chariot", the tank, is
transported to battle by another vehicle. Tanks are vulnerable to certain
kinds of conditions, and it makes sense not to run them on roads for long
stretches. The same probably holds true for ancient war chariots. They were
built for specific purposes, and you did not want to spoil them by running
them on rough ground not suited for them. And as a means of ordinary
transport, they must have been both uncomfortable and unpractical.

Lars Martin Fosse



Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU  Tue Apr 10 15:41:11 2001
From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 11:41:11 -0400
Subject: SV: , Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010410163638.008c2260@popserv.rz.hu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <161227069050.23782.14109512813598042183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<The discussion in this thread demonstrates for me the difference between
religious/ideological/nationalistic and scientific interpretation.>

1. I had called to attention some months ago the difference between an
endo-approach and an exo-approach to any work of historical/religious/spiritual
significance, whether it is the Rig Veda or the Bhagavad Gita, the Torah or the
Koran, the Dhammapada or the New Testament, colonial history or American Indian
history, or whatever.

2. The question is not which is right and which is wrong, because each in its
own way, if undertaken with sincerity and honesty, can be fulfilling and
enriching.

3. Controversies, arguments, and unpleasantness tend to arise under one or both
of two conditions:
(a) Te discussants approach the subject matter from the two different
approaches, often without being consciously aware of this.
(b) When there is actual or perceived lack of sincerity and honesty, and
suspicions (valid or not) of sinister motives in the interpretations, exo- or
-endo.

V. V. Raman
April 10, 2001




From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 10 11:01:11 2001
From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 12:01:11 +0100
Subject: SV: , Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069044.23782.16902938010721355623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse skrev :


>I can't help pointing out that even the modern "war chariot", the tank, is
>transported to battle by another vehicle. Tanks are vulnerable to certain
>kinds of conditions, and it makes sense not to run them on roads for long
>stretches. The same probably holds true for ancient war chariots. They were
>built for specific purposes, and you did not want to spoil them by running
>them on rough ground not suited for them. And as a means of ordinary
>transport, they must have been both uncomfortable and unpractical.
>
>>>>>>>>>>

These are the most reasonable remarks made so far on this subject. After
all, despite all vulnerable "philological evidences" and Roman inspired
speculations there must be a room for a good sense based ponderation.

Jesualdo Correia
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Tue Apr 10 09:24:33 2001
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 14:54:33 +0530
Subject: queries/revised
Message-ID: <161227069042.23782.16181735169089159767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

1.What is a war chariot?
2. How does it differ from a peace chariot?
3.What type are the chariots divinities like Indra and Surya ride?
4.Is their a pre-chariot phase of these divinities?.

Rajesh Kochhar

PS. While answering these questions please do not mention any living persons.




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Tue Apr 10 20:11:04 2001
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 16:11:04 -0400
Subject: CONF. ANNOUNCEMENT: Information Access,              Information Process: Research on South Asia
Message-ID: <161227069057.23782.5867385088863572830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following conference announcement is being forwarded to your
mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI.
Please contact event organizers for any further detail.
David Magier
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl

                ---------------

CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT

INFORMATION ACCESS, INFORMATION PROCESS:  RESEARCH ON SOUTH ASIA

You are invited to attend a conference which focuses on the relationship
between information repositories (libraries, archives, digital databases,
etc.) and the kinds and methods of research that they support and generate.

WHEN: May 4, 2001

WHERE: Michigan Room, Michigan League, University of Michigan

CONFERENCE THEME:
Academic research is comprised of, limited to, and determined by the data
and raw material available to the researcher.  Those whose work demands
creation of resources, such as anthropologists or oral historians are all
too familiar with the complexities of information, how it is acquired and
how one might evaluate its relevance and importance.  However, those
working with physical troves of information (printed books, manuscripts,
and the like), particularly those that are found in institutional
frameworks, often neglect to question how those materials came to be
available or how their work might be different under different
institutional or informational circumstances.   Fluctuating influences such
as government funding, library initiatives, and donor generosity have a
dramatic impact on what resources might be available to the researcher.
Bureaucratic details and structures, classification schemes and notions of
organizational propriety can further sway the direction and nature of
scholarly investigation.   It is these relationships that will be explored
in this conference.

The goal of this conference is both theoretical and practical.  We want to
ask both how and why we organize academic inquiry in the way we do.  The
theoretical question focuses on the influence of our current informational
structures on the products of our research.  The practical question is how
we can overcome the constraints of these institutional boundaries in the
pursuit of long-lasting mutual benefits for both individuals and
institutions within and outside of South Asia.


AGENDA:
8:30     Breakfast
9:00     Introductory Remarks
9:15     Theodore Baskaran, Roja Muthiah Research Library, "Roja Muthiah
Research Library, Chennai: A Centre for South Indian Studies"
9:45     C.S. Lakshmi, Sound and Picture Archives for Research on Women,
"Catching Women, Words and Images: SPARROW's Journey into Archiving"
10:15     Break
10:30     Pradeep Jeganathan, University of Minnesota, "'Sri Lanka Studies'
and Postcolonial Scholarship"
11:00     Rama Mantena, University of Michigan, "Amnesia and the Colonial
Archive"
11:30     Will Glover, University of Michigan, Response
11:45     Discussion

12:30     Lunch Break

2:00     David Magier, Columbia University, "Local Needs - Global Benefits:
The Evolution of the WWW-Virtual Library for South Asia (SARAI)"
2:30     James Nye, University of Chicago, "Khyber: The Digital South Asia
Library as a Data "Fort" and a Pass Through the Digital Divide"
3:00     Break
3:15     Gene Smith, Tibetan Buddhist Resource Center, "The Public Law 480
Program and New Approaches to the Access and Use of Materials in Lesser
Known Languages: The Case of Tibetan"
3:45     Graham Shaw, Oriental and India Office Collections, British
Library, "A pedigree mongrel: the Oriental and India Office Collections at
the British Library, London"
4:15     Michael Fisher, Oberlin College, Response
4:30     Discussion


CONFERENCE SPONSORS:
University Library, Center for South Asian Studies, International
Institute, Institute for the Humanities, Office of the Vice President for
Research, Rackham Graduate School, Department of Asian Languages and
Cultures, Institute for Research on Women and Gender


Please send questions or comments to: Mary Rader (mrader at umich.edu)




From lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE  Tue Apr 10 14:36:38 2001
From: lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Lukas Werth)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 16:36:38 +0200
Subject: SV: , Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
In-Reply-To: <01C0C1AC.2A46E9C0.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227069048.23782.11787007397510157147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I can't help pointing out that even the modern "war chariot", the tank, is
>transported to battle by another vehicle. Tanks are vulnerable to certain
>kinds of conditions, and it makes sense not to run them on roads for long
>stretches. The same probably holds true for ancient war chariots. They were
>built for specific purposes, and you did not want to spoil them by running
>them on rough ground not suited for them. And as a means of ordinary
>transport, they must have been both uncomfortable and unpractical.
>
>Lars Martin Fosse
>
The discussion in this thread demonstrates for me the difference between
religious/ideological/nationalistic and scientific interpretation. But: in
this case, was not historically much of the present discourse about the RV
initiated by its scientific treatment during the British Raj (witness
Trautmann's 'Aryans and British India')?
The historical interpretations of the RV, which by and large orignated in
this time, played a big role in the formation of a new, unified brand of
Hinduism.
The position of the RV as installed by Victorian Indology is reflected in
modern scholarship, too: I am thinking of, for intance, Biardeau's wirings,
for instance her "histoire des poteaux" in which she traces back central
aspects of folk traditions to the Vedic sacrificial pole. To me, her
arguments appear to be straight from some pundit's mouth, and imposition of
one "high" tradition on a rich cluster of traditions, some quite alien to
the RV.
I have hesitated to write these lines, because I am no specialist at all on
RV studies, but I would like to point at a discrepancy which does, for all
I can see, exist: for all I know, there is no evidence to speak of of the
composers of the RV apart from the text itself, and there does exist a
history of differing translations. The role of chariots does not appear to
me to emerge from the text except in very general terms, nor do most other
contested features. It is absolutely unclear to me which scope of society
one should presume for the people of the Rg Veda: a few tribes among many,
or an extended kingdom?

Lukas Werth




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Apr 10 16:56:46 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 17:56:46 +0100
Subject: Credibility of Criticism (Re: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem )
In-Reply-To: <200104091816.f39IGfx06225@thomson.uni2.net>
Message-ID: <161227069052.23782.18087650301160005418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote:
> Is it possible that you could provide a reference to
> where Staal has written about this topic?

I had this orally from Staal during his visit to London not long ago.  I
believe he has written about it, but I don't know where at present. I'll
ask him.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Tue Apr 10 17:48:26 2001
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 18:48:26 +0100
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots miS and miil
Message-ID: <161227069055.23782.4452040661995755788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 10 Apr 2001 03:25:40 +0200, Gunthard Mueller <gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM>
wrote:

>(a) PIE had no word-initial variation of *m-/*v-.

>(b) It is very hard to prove that Skt. vid- "know" ever fully lost
>its linkage to "see". Grassmann and others list TWO vid- roots already
> for Vedic, but cannot really separate the two.

>Gunthard Mueller
>gm at e-ternals.com


1. Are we then left to conclude that Skt. miS/mIL are borrowals from
Dravidian roots viz/miz?

2. Also what about the phonetic similarity of the following pairs
all in the visual semantic cluster?

  Skt. vid                 Dr. viz-
  Skt. miS                 Dr. viz-/miz-
  Skt. mIL                 Dr. viz-/miz-/miL-
  Skt. dRz                 Dr. ter-
  Skt. pA/pAl              Dr. pAr
  Skt. kSaN                Dr. kaN
  Skt. kaN                 Dr. kaN
                           Dr. kA (to watch, protect)


Are all of the above coincidences or borrowals only?


Regards,
P.Chandrasekaran.




From mayer-koenig at TESIONMAIL.DE  Tue Apr 10 20:37:58 2001
From: mayer-koenig at TESIONMAIL.DE (=?utf-8?Q?Birgit_Mayer-K=C3=B6nig?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 22:37:58 +0200
Subject: Credibility of Criticism (Re: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem )
Message-ID: <161227069061.23782.3374373792405678895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> > [...] Staal has
> > recently made some extremely interesting observations about the details
of
> > Baudhayana's statement of the theorem, which is more general than
> > Pythagoras's, and applies not only to squares on sides, but also, for
> > example, to hemispheres. [...]
>
> I was not aware of these observations by Staal, but it sounds very
> interesting.  Is it possible that you could provide a reference to
> where Staal has written about this topic?

Dear Toke Lindegaard Knudsen,

Staal explains the geometrical insights of BaudhAyana's ShulbasUtra through
the language of modern algebra in "Greek and Vedic Geometry", Journal of
Indian Philosophy, vol. 27, Nos. 1/2, 1999, 105-127. You may also like to
have a look at Axel Michaels, Beweisverfahren in der vedischen
Sakralgeometrie, 1978, Wiesbaden: Franz Steiner, (in German) where the
teachings on geometry of various ShulvasUtras are explained in detail.

Sincerely,
Birgit Mayer-K?nig




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Apr 10 21:59:07 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 01 22:59:07 +0100
Subject: Staal on Baudhayana
Message-ID: <161227069063.23782.6076834288389044179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Staal has written as follows (apparently this is not in print, I'm
afraid):
\begin{quote}
Your memory is so excellent! However, that comment was made by Professor
Sylvain Bromberger at MIT, a brilliant philosopher very close to the
Chomsky crowd who had asked me how the Indians expressed the theorem. I
wrote to Hayashi what he thought of it and he said it was certainly true
that it could be interpreted thus but that the only interpretations he had
come across were with regard to squares.

It seems unlikely, then (though Takao is may be too careful a philologist
to have taken that step!) that the Indians thought of other polygons or
half-circles. Would be fascinating to find evidence.
\end{quote}

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From holden at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Apr 10 20:38:41 2001
From: holden at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Sundeep Dougal)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 02:08:41 +0530
Subject: Query -  Kalki avatar of Vishnu & Sadhus in India
Message-ID: <161227069059.23782.5630382755321003037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I hope this is not off-charter. A friend writes:

I need credible and detailed information on:

1. The Kalki avatar of Vishnu

2. Diferent sects of sadhus in India, like the nagas and the aghoris
etc.
Can you please ask the Sanskritologists/indologists you know if
there are any
interenet resources where I can get this info. Or what are the best
books on the
subject, and if they are available in India or the web.

I would be grateful for any help -- instead of cluttering up the
list,  mail could be sent off-list to me.

Thanks,

Sundeep




From ksn28 at USA.NET  Wed Apr 11 12:41:45 2001
From: ksn28 at USA.NET (surya narayan)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 06:41:45 -0600
Subject: [Query -  Kalki avatar of Vishnu & Sadhus in India]
Message-ID: <161227069077.23782.13497202996295117744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is a topic of great curiosity for me too. Any one knowledgeable on this
sujbect may kindly send a copy of their mail to me also.In fact, there is one
Kalki Bhagwan in Andhra Pradesh. I have heard from some people that if one
prays, the Bhagwan even the writes the exams of students who are His
devotees.

Suryanarayana Korada,
School of Computer&Systems Sciences,
Jawaharlal Nehru University,
New Delhi - 110 067.

Sundeep Dougal <holden at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN> wrote:


I need credible and detailed information on:

1. The Kalki avatar of Vishnu

2. Diferent sects of sadhus in India, like the nagas and the aghoris
etc.
Can you please ask the Sanskritologists/indologists you know if
there are any
interenet resources where I can get this info. Or what are the best
books on the
subject, and if they are available in India or the web.

I would be grateful for any help -- instead of cluttering up the
list,  mail could be sent off-list to me.

Thanks,

Sundeep


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU  Wed Apr 11 11:14:33 2001
From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 07:14:33 -0400
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069071.23782.9240024362376648525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik,

The expression "Aryan Invasion Theory" is now broadly used (and has
been for at least a decade) by political polemicists on the Indian
right wing (these include Elst, though he is not Indian) to refer to
all scholarly thinking on ancient Indian origins which does _not_
hold, at a minimum, that the Sanskrit and related languages originated
wholly within the Indian subcontinent, and that the builders of the
Indus Valley Civilisation spoke some form of Vedic Sanskrit.

This designation is political, not descriptive, in nature, and has
nothing to do with real "invasion" (vs. migration) theories like those
of Mortimer Wheeler.  The use of the word "invasion" is probably
motivated by analogy with the historical Islamic invasions of India,
since the goal of these polemics is to strengthen the political
argument that the Hindu tradition (not brought to India by "invaders")
has a nativist historical claim to legitimacy in India which other
religious and cultural traditions like Islam and Christianity (brought
to India by "invaders") do not.

The "debate" Elst refers to is the entirely one-sided one that Elst,
Talageri, Kak, Frawley, etc. have carried on through their books (many
funded by the BJP/RSS publishing house Voice of India).

Regards,
Rohan



>I noticed a new book by Elst which has the title "Update on the Aryan
>Invasion Debate".  I'm unaware that there exists such a debate.  Am I
>alone in thinking this?  I thought that any idea of an invasion as such
>was discredited thirty years ago.
>
>I'm not being disingenuous about this; I'm not madly interested in all the
>arguments about aryans and so forth, so I can easily believe that I've
>missed some major point.
>
>--
>Dominik Wujastyk
>Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Apr 11 14:50:37 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 07:50:37 -0700
Subject: Etymology of sanskrit roots miS and miil
In-Reply-To: <3AD26113.57B91ECF@anthosimprint.com>
Message-ID: <161227069096.23782.5047776766645442454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Gunthard Mueller <gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM> wrote:
> (a) PIE had no word-initial variation of *m-/*v-. [...]

I read in R.M.W. Dixon, The rise and fall of languages, CambridgeUP
that the Nostratic theory of linking distinct language families is
not accepted by any historical linguist. Is it so?

Also, not just words, but in building common grammar between
two different language families, Nostratics fails badly.

Seeking the scholars' guidance to know the status of Nastratics,
say in linking Tamil and Greek, (or) TuLu and English.

Sincerely,
SM


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Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Apr 11 16:02:21 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 09:02:21 -0700
Subject: SV: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069099.23782.10032309096771310237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajesh Kochhar writes:

> In the Rgvedic context it will probably be more relevant to talk of
> wheeled vehicles rather than war chariots, more specifically of  vehicles
> with spoked wheels in contrast to solid wheels. Spoked wheels make the
> vehicle lighter and faster and therefore more versatile.

Lars Martin Fosse responds:

> This does not make sense. A "war chariot" is a vehicle developed for a
> specific purpose, and such contraptions are well known from later periods.
> If you read Xenophon's famous Anabasis, he has a vivid description of
> Persian chariots, some of them mean bastards with rotating knives attached
> to the wheel axles.

I don't think that RK would disagree, Lars. I think his main
point is simply that the spoked wheel -- first seen in central
Asia at the tail end of the 3rd millennium -- was the enabling
technology that allowed many types of fast vehicles (including
the specialized war chariots that you mention) to evolve. What he
says a little later on is that the kind of vehicles that evolved
depended on the situation:

> What you do with your vehicles depends on who and what you are up against. Against
> pedestrians even a clumsy vehicle will serve as a war vehicle; against
> enemies/targets of similar technological status, you would need quality and
> innovation.

ADENDUM on pit earlier discussion of the ratha-vaahana, or
'chariot carrier,' noted in RV 6.75 and other Vedic sources: We
know from studies of super lightweight chariots seen elsewhere in
Eurasia (e.g., from Shang dynasty graves, c. 11th century BCE)
that light-weight spoked wheels tended to become deformed simply
from being parked, let alone from moving on uneven ground. See
the discussion here in Robert Bagley, "Shang Archaeology," _Camb.
Hist. of Ancient China 2000_, 204-5. The result is that the
wheels had to be removed except in the brief periods in which the
vehicles were in use; alternately, special parking racks could be
used to keep the weight off of the wheels. This would suggest
again that super-light war chariots, or racing chariots, etc.,
would need to be carried on other wagons (the ratha-vaahana) to
where they were used.

But we don't have to imagine that *all* war chariots were this
delicate. The evidence, as suggested by Lars, is that they came
in many varieties, from robust and heavy-duty models to the
highly stylized war chariot used for ritual purposes. Certainly
many types can already be seen in the RV. What made all this
possible, as suggested by Rajesh Kochhar in his post, is the
development of the enabling technology -- the spoked wheel. And
*that* we know, evolved in Central Asia, not long before 2000
BCE, and only made it to S. Asia many hundreds of years later.

Steve Farmer




From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU  Wed Apr 11 13:53:27 2001
From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 09:53:27 -0400
Subject: SV: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069086.23782.10796861153010460828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>I have a question here: To what extent are the works of Elst etc. read in
>India, and how important is this debate among Indians in general? Is there
>a blossoming literature on the subject in the vernacular languages, or is
>this basically a small group of ideologists talking to each other?

The short answer is that the debate appears to have become quite
important partly because of its political centrality to the ruling
party's (the BJP's) ideology.  The party forms the current government
and has 197 of 543 members in parliament.

The BJP sells (!) several "anti-Aryan-Invasion" works by Talageri,
Sethna, Rajaram & Elst (see "http://www.bjp.org/today/bookshop.htm").
See also: "http://www.bjp.org/history/elst-ivw.html".

The "OIT" (Out of India Theory, to coin a phrase) also seem to have
become mainstream in Indian academia despite the lack of acceptance
among scholars outside India of any non-intrusive explanation of the
Indo-Aryan family's presence in India.  Edwin Bryant, whose book on
the subject ("The Indo-Aryan Migration Debate: In Quest of the Origins
of Vedic Culture") is out from OUP this month, reported on RISA-L
several years ago:

"Outside of JNU and Delhi University, I was surprised to find almost
all the faculty members in the ancient history dept's of the other 20
or so campuses I visited in India were highly suspicious of the Aryan
migration theory." ("http://www.acusd.edu/~lnelson/risa/d-iaryan.txt")

I don't know anything about the coverage of this in "vernacular"
literature (presumably writings in Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, etc) so I
can't comment on that.

Rohan.




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Wed Apr 11 17:25:23 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 10:25:23 -0700
Subject: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069105.23782.15076562690781676661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
> This does not make sense. A "war chariot" is a vehicle developed for a
> specific purpose . . . .  Chariot technology, like tank technology, makes
sense
> if you fight your battles under certain conditions, such as plains or
> deserts. . . .  I find it difficult to understand why Vedic chariots
should
> be so unthinkable.
>
Since this is partly a question of logic, I venture an opinion, aided a
little experience.

In Sindh, solid-wheeled oxcarts were still not uncommon when I was last
there.  Each wheel was built, as I recall, out of three or four large, thick
boards (4") laid side-by-side and cross-braced at right angles by two more
boards (2") which flanked the hub.  The axle itself was a wooden shaft.  The
wheel was held onto the axle by some sort of pin arrangement, I think.  At
any rate, with wear, the wheel came to fit only loosely around the axle,
making it wobble greatly from side to side as it traveled.  Pulled by the
somewhat smaller, less "modern" breed of oxen in the Sindh, these oxcarts
were small, slow and awkward, poor vehicles for warfare except as a
painfully slow and uncomfortable carrier for troops, armaments, or supplies.

On the other hand, in Multan I once saw a super-large, four-wheeled oxcart
with rubber tires pulled by two magnificent, huge, pure creamy white oxen of
the old Zebu type, huge curved horns rising above their heads, which could
have kept pace with some trucks.  These proud and arrogant animals stood
about 6 feet high along their backbone, standing taller than a man, and
disdainful of awestruck children like me.  Confronting these charging beasts
would have been a terror to a foot-soldier armed with a sharpened farm
implement or even a sword, whatever kind of cart followed behind them.

In considering the efficacy of one kind of chariot over another, I would
think that the invention of a long-lasting hub that kept the wheel turning
straight would have been almost as important as the invention of spokes and
"tires" that kept the wheel from warping and gave it strength.

IMHO,

David




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Apr 11 14:30:53 2001
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 10:30:53 -0400
Subject: Guest-professorship at Vienna University (Tibetan and/or              Buddhist               Studies) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104061530040.5271-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069089.23782.15527730836113010744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:26:39 +0100
>From: Ulrich Pagel <up1 at soas.ac.uk>
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>A guest-professorship for Tibetan and/or Buddhist Studies was announced
>....

>Your applications should reach our dean's office by May 2, 2001. Since
>you would have to teach German, at least for a major part of your
>activities, I add the original German announcement below for your
>informatuion:


I think it is worth correcting that what is no doubt meant is "teach
IN German"....  (although anyone who could read the message would
know this).  Let us just assure our members who cannot read German
that at least such a post in Vienna has not (yet) been reduced to a
post teaching something more "useful"....



Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Yale University
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Wed Apr 11 17:44:38 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 10:44:38 -0700
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069108.23782.7967206923784406873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You might think again before relaxing  . . . .

See "NCERT replaces panel of experts"
http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/stories/0211000z.htm

Perhaps the OITers are about to rewrite the history books along polemical
lines.  Perhaps they are only purging government of "ideological" opponents.
Perhaps both.

David

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wujastyk" [...]
>
> Ah, that makes sense.  What a relief!
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list.
>
>
>




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Apr 11 18:07:26 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 11:07:26 -0700
Subject: Vedic roots of Tamil culture
Message-ID: <161227069111.23782.3140125959507275588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ref.:
http://www.voi.org/michel_danino/tamil_cult01.html

Is Michel Danino an expert on Tamil literature? Does he even
know to read old or modern Tamil?

While reductionism to derive Tamil culture fron Aryan Vedic texts is apparent,
the recent studies pointing out the uniqueness of the sangam literature,
Dravidian substratum element in Indian history, the arrival of
Aryans outlined in I. Mahadevan, A. Parpola, G. Hart, K. Zvelebil, M. Witzel,
... are missing! Reliance is made on outdated materials
like KAN Sastri (see criticism by Hart), and scholars who do not
read (old) Tamil literature, K. V. Sharma and M. G. S. Narayanan
are from Kerala.

Danino's attempt won't stand the Indologists' scrutiny.

Regards,
SM



__________________________________________________
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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Apr 11 09:44:53 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 11:44:53 +0200
Subject: Dravidian linguistics
Message-ID: <161227069066.23782.8461280125846212303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of the net:

I pass on some information that turned up on the Linguist List. Some of you may find this reference interesting.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

                                ****************************

COMPARATIVE DRAVIDIAN LINGUISTICS: Current Perspectives
Bhadriraju Krishnamurti, University of Hyderabad

This volume is a contribution both to comparative Dravidian studies
and to the theory of language change and lingusitic reconstruction.
It makes available the author's most important published articles on
Dravidian over the last forty years and includes a new and substantial
introduction to the field.  The book concludes with a survey of
Dravidian language studies over the last thousand years and a critical
account of work since 1950.  Those articles reprinted in the work
appear substantially unchanged, with individual comments.

"To have these papers in a single volume will be of the greatest
value.  The result will be virtually a compendium of comparative
Dravidian linguistics such as is nowhere else available.  It will
instantly become a primary reference and tool for students of
Dravidian linguistics everywhere."--Professor William Bright,
University of Colorado

"It is impossible to do serious work in Professor Krishnamurti's
principal chosen field without consulting the books and articles he
has written over a period of four decades.  Almost everything he has
published is original, insightful, and authoritative, and put together
the collection would provide a sort of epitome of the history of the
comparative study of Dravidian languages over the period in
question."--Professor R. E. Asher, University of Edinburgh

April 2001   416 pp.; b/w line illus, 12 maps
0-19-824122-4 $95.00
Oxford University Press


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 11 10:53:43 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 11:53:43 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069068.23782.11289073663984082618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I noticed a new book by Elst which has the title "Update on the Aryan
Invasion Debate".  I'm unaware that there exists such a debate.  Am I
alone in thinking this?  I thought that any idea of an invasion as such
was discredited thirty years ago.

I'm not being disingenuous about this; I'm not madly interested in all the
arguments about aryans and so forth, so I can easily believe that I've
missed some major point.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From jkcowart at ADNC.COM  Wed Apr 11 19:15:52 2001
From: jkcowart at ADNC.COM (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 12:15:52 -0700
Subject: status of Nostratic linking
Message-ID: <161227069127.23782.1080711177312418117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 07:50 AM 04/11/2001 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
>Seeking the scholars' guidance to know the status of Nastratics,
>say in linking Tamil and Greek, (or) TuLu and English.

You may wish to post your inquiry to the NOSTRATIC list.  To
subscribe and post, set your browser to:

http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-nostratic.html .

Yours truly,

J. Kingston Cowart, M.S.
San Diego, California
<jkcowart at adnc.com>




From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Wed Apr 11 16:43:08 2001
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 12:43:08 -0400
Subject: tyaja dhaarmam ktl.
In-Reply-To: <3AD47FB4.A0C00F48@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227069102.23782.15979442128998603206.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list:

I am told that I missed the identification of the shloka beginning tyaja
djarmamadharmaM ca, that was sent in to the list recently.  I didn't
recognise the subject header, thought no one had responded.  Can anyone
dredge up that post and forward it to me?  Thanks much to whoever sent it.

P. Ernest




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 11 13:01:19 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 14:01:19 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <E14nIa1-0001dn-00@poseidon.shore.net>
Message-ID: <161227069079.23782.14174242895472586976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU wrote:
[...]

Ah, that makes sense.  What a relief!

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Apr 11 12:03:46 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 14:03:46 +0200
Subject: SV: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069075.23782.10038434033323825249.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU [SMTP:rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU] skrev 11. april
2001 13:15:
> The "debate" Elst refers to is the entirely one-sided one that Elst,
> Talageri, Kak, Frawley, etc. have carried on through their books (many
> funded by the BJP/RSS publishing house Voice of India).

I have a question here: To what extent are the works of Elst etc. read in
India, and how important is this debate among Indians in general? Is there
a blossoming literature on the subject in the vernacular languages, or is
this basically a small group of ideologists talking to each other?

Best regards,

Lars Martin

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr 11 18:24:24 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 14:24:24 -0400
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069121.23782.5050079684519241220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are fundamental differences between Sitaram Goel's VOI and RSS. To
equate all to RSS is like saying every western Indologist is a McCaulay.
Please check this..

http://www.voi.org/authors/sita.html

The rual population in India doesn't know or care about AIT. Rural folk
hardly travel beyond 50 miles from their village all their life. Most urban
dwellers heard about AIT, Aryans and Dravidians, but they hardly get worked
up because they hadn't seen any vedic text other than an occassional copy of
gIta in a friend's house. To them an "aryan invasion that brought vedas" is
no different from an Italian invasion of America in 16th century that
brought pizza technology. The committed Sanskrit and veda followers don't
care where vedic tribes originated, as long as they are told that vedic
people were sovereign in the lands they lived, travelled or migrated.

There are scholars who want to find the truth, but the "acrimonius debate"
in India is limited to left and right wing scholars. Left wingers still
quote nehruvian AIT and right wingers are opposing for different reasons. To
me it is all a storm in a tea cup or at best some masala for news papers.
The national interest in the debate is a recent phenomenon, but history has
proven that all issues are quickly forgotten replaced by new ones. A good
debate may help both sides, for seling literature and stuff.

Regards
Bhadraiah
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Wed Apr 11 21:31:07 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 14:31:07 -0700
Subject: Soap
Message-ID: <161227069158.23782.7338899600886966145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The recent discussion on the Indo-European list regarding the origins of the
word "soap" prompt me to raise the same question here.

Douglas G. Kilday stated there, "The most plausible scenario has PIE *saigw-
'tallow, fat, grease, etc.' undergoing "pre-Germanic" labialization to
*saibw-,
yielding PGmc *saip-."  Others trace it through Latin "<sebum /sevum>,
tallow,
suet, grease; <sebosus>, full of tallow or grease, tallowy, greasy."   The
reference to tallow and grease is said to refer to the greasy component of
soap, which is formed by mixing fat and alkali, which is said to have been
used as
early as 2800 BC Babylon to remove fats from wool prior to dyeing, or to
remove fats from leather, or to clean hair.

What is the derivation of the the modern Hindi word for soap, "sAbn" or
"saabuna," etc.?

David




From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Wed Apr 11 12:34:13 2001
From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 14:34:13 +0200
Subject: release of WZKS 44 (2000) and PDNRL 28
Message-ID: <161227069073.23782.9995958736655868748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members of Indology,

number 44 of the "Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde S?dasiens" and number 28
of the "Publications of the De Nobili Research Library" are now available.
For details confer http://www.univie.ac.at/indologie/publikationen.htm .



Himal Trikha, M.A.
Institute for South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
- South Asian Studies -
Vienna University
Spitalgasse 2/Hof 4
1090 Vienna
Austria
http://www.univie.ac.at/indologie




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Apr 11 13:38:04 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 14:38:04 +0100
Subject: Blackening palmleaves
Message-ID: <161227069084.23782.15490782980064785009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ref.:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0012&L=indology&P=R29175

Dear Dr. Mueller,

Congratulations for developing the noninvasive technique of digital
blackening of palm leaves! With tamil in the family, this may be of
interest to you.

Two old poems from literature on physical darkening come to mind:

A) Tamil as a Messenger to Madurai Shivan (12th century AD),
(maturaic cokkanAtar tamizviTu tUtu, UVS, 1930) has a couplet:

    maJcaL kuLippATTi maiyiTTu muppAlum
    miJcap pukaTTa mikavaLarntAy!

This couplet can be interpreted in a couple of ways:

i) As for a girl, the meaning:

When you were little, you enjoyed taking showers with turmeric
daubed  all over,  decorated the eyes with collyrium and
drank milk/juices - all essential for healthy growth.

ii) As for the tamil, the meaning:

All your treasures in palmleaves are protected with
turmeric, the letters on those leaves are blackened with soot
for clarity, and in the early stages of your life,
TirukkuRaL nourished you!

(muppAl = 3 kinds of milk. Also, muppAl is another name for the
famous TirukkuRaL because it is divided into three sections.)

B) The second example comes from ParaJcOti Munivar's tiruviLaiyATal
purANam (16th century?). Again on Madurai, the seat of sangam poets.

    cEya tArakai varuNamAt tITTiya vA_nam
    Aya ETTi_nai iruLe_num aJca_nam taTavi
    tUya vALnilA e_numveN tUci_nAl tuTaippA_n
    pAya vElaiyil muLaitta_na_n pa_nimatik kaTavuL.

Siva appears in the sea. The crescent moon on his head sends out
rays to dispel the darkness of the night sky and the stars shine.
Those lunar rays are like a writer using a soft, white cloth to
remove the carbon  from the face of palmleaf manuscript and the
letters look bright and clear!

           sky  ------>  palmleaf
           darkness of the night ---> carbon smear
           stars -----> letters
           moon's rays ----> soft cloth

Regards,
N. Ganesan


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Apr 11 13:49:07 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 15:49:07 +0200
Subject: SV: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069092.23782.10795758158867346042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajesh Kochhar [SMTP:rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN] skrev 11. april 2001 15:45:
> In the Rgvedic context it will probably be more relevant to talk of
wheeled vehicles rather than war chariots,more specifically of  vehicles
with spoked wheels in contrast to solid wheels.Spoked wheels make the
vehicle lighter and faster and therefore more versatile.

This does not make sense. A "war chariot" is a vehicle developed for a
specific purpose, and such contraptions are well known from later periods.
If you read Xenophon's famous Anabasis, he has a vivid description of
Persian chariots, some of them mean bastards with rotating knives attached
to the wheel axles. Chariot technology, like tank technology, makes sense
if you fight your battles under certain conditions, such as plains or
deserts. (The Russians soon found out that tanks were of limited use in
Afghanistan!). I find it difficult to understand why Vedic chariots should
be so unthinkable. I don't know to what extent they made military sense
under Indian conditions - at that time with more jungle in the Punjab, I
would guess - but they must have been used for some time before they became
obsolete (as the tank is becoming with new tank killing technology). In
Rome, the chariot went out of use and passed into sports, where it remained
very popular for centuries (remember Ben Hur, the movie where Texas cowboys
were transformed into charioteers?) The special character of the chariot is
brought out by the fact that it is carried on another vehicle when not in
use. Why should that be relevant if it was just another wagon?

BTW: I seem to remember that the chariot was also used during hunting. So
even in India, it apparently passed into sports.

Lars Martin Fosse





From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Wed Apr 11 13:45:13 2001
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 19:15:13 +0530
Subject: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069082.23782.12276296470621397801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Cartoons and comics often show a rock-shelter dweller discovering fire and inventing wheel. This may be funny ,but is anachronistic.While taming of fire belongs to truly ancient times, wheel is a relatively recent thing.If we depend on archaeological evidence available from anywhere in the world, wheel came into being  c.3500BC It is  thus later than advent of agriculture and animal husbandry (c.7000BC) as well as copper metallurgy(c.5000BC).
.
In the Rgvedic context it will probably be more relevant to talk of wheeled vehicles rather than war chariots,more specifically of  vehicles with spoked wheels in contrast to solid wheels.Spoked wheels make the vehicle lighter and faster and therefore more versatile.

When a technology enters  poetic and ritualistic imagery, this can be taken as a sure sign of thattechnology's having become an integral part of the society.Rv 1. 164.2  uses "one-wheeled chariot" to imply the sun. Rv 1 164.11 says,+The wheel having 12 spokes revolve the heavens,but it does not weatr out.Oh Agni!720 pairs of sons ride this {wheel}.".

Wilhelm Rau while discussing the term grama says that its denoting the inhabitants as in grama has come/grama has gone "is undoubtedly the oldest and the only one attested in the earliest strata of the Vedic literature.The coming/going grama comprised  "cattle,ox-waggons,carts and chariots".

What you do with your vehicles depends on who and what you are up agains. Against pedestrians even a clumsy vehicle will serve as a war vehicle;against enemies/targets of similar technological status,you would  need quality and innovation.

The Sanskrit chakra has evolved into  the Hindi (etc.) chakkar. Some where along the evolutionary sequence chakkar has acquired  a distinctive meaning of its own, which the parent chakra would not recognize.

rajesh kochhar




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 11 18:24:11 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 19:24:11 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <004301c0c2af$3ef542a0$71cf0341@c1211450a>
Message-ID: <161227069119.23782.7771398095366634103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, David Salmon wrote:

> You might think again before relaxing  . . . .
>
> See "NCERT replaces panel of experts"
> http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/stories/0211000z.htm

Okay, I'm tense again.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Wed Apr 11 18:34:14 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 19:34:14 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069123.23782.1719447276931618505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Elst's book "Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate" is available on-line,
at http://www.voi.org/books/ait/

so it is possible to check what debate is meant.

As Rohan Oberoi pointed out, the debate is political in nature;

http://www.voi.org/books/ait/ch12.htm

discusses Elst's view of the political debate in India.

The debate was hardly over three decades ago, if, as quoted by Elst,
in 1991 a ex-member of Parliament could write "Sanskrit should be deleted
from the Eighth Schedule of the Constitution because it is a foreign
language brought to the country by foreign invaders - the Aryans."

-Arun Gupta




From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Wed Apr 11 18:51:09 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 19:51:09 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069125.23782.3701453951234118079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My NCERT school textbooks in India (less than three decades ago) still
had the Aryan invasion theory taught as fact.

In a talk (http://www.mnet.fr/aiindex/ch2.html) Romila Thapar claims
that she (and historians like her) have been unable to get history
textbooks updated for various reasons. Elsewhere she has agreed that
it has been known that there was no Aryan invasion for three decades
or more.

Therefore, NCERT dropping her from the textbook committee is no loss,
as she is ineffectual anyway.

---

Elst also makes the point that the Aryan Invasion theory has significance
for the European right-wing, as well as Dalit and Dravidian movements in
India.

-Arun Gupta




From tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK  Wed Apr 11 18:22:19 2001
From: tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 20:22:19 +0200
Subject: Staal on Baudhayana
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104102257260.9693-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069116.23782.12306467822155600450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Wujystyk,

> Prof. Staal has written as follows (apparently this is not in print, I'm
> afraid):
> \begin{quote} Your memory is so excellent! However, that
> comment
> was made by Professor Sylvain Bromberger at MIT, a brilliant philosopher
> very close to the Chomsky crowd who had asked me how the Indians expressed
> the theorem. I wrote to Hayashi what he thought of it and he said it was
> certainly true that it could be interpreted thus but that the only
> interpretations he had come across were with regard to squares.
>
> It seems unlikely, then (though Takao is may be too careful a philologist
> to have taken that step!) that the Indians thought of other polygons or
> half-circles. Would be fascinating to find evidence. \end{quote}

Thank you very much for asking Professor Staal about this matter.
It certainly is interesting.  Some time back my supervisor asked
me if the ancient Indian formulation of the Pythagorean theorem
could be interpreted to include other figures than squares.  At that
time I did not know any Sanskrit, so I answered according to the
translations and studies with which I was familiar with.  None of
those works mention anything about the ancient Indian formulation
possibly being more general than the simple Pythagorean theorem.
 As Professor Staal remarks it would be fascinating to find
evidence of the ancient Indians having thought of other polygons or
arcs.

Sincerely,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK  Wed Apr 11 18:22:19 2001
From: tlknudsen at GET2NET.DK (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 20:22:19 +0200
Subject: Credibility of Criticism (Re: NEW: Pythagoras Theorem )
In-Reply-To: <005f01c0c1fe$21682060$7364e2c3@pc1>
Message-ID: <161227069113.23782.10379165018153201166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Mayer-K?nig,

> Staal explains the geometrical insights of BaudhAyana's ShulbasUtra
> through the language of modern algebra in "Greek and Vedic Geometry",
> Journal of Indian Philosophy, vol. 27, Nos. 1/2, 1999, 105-127. You may
> also like to have a look at Axel Michaels, Beweisverfahren in der
> vedischen Sakralgeometrie, 1978, Wiesbaden: Franz Steiner, (in German)
> where the teachings on geometry of various ShulvasUtras are explained in
> detail.

Thank you for your reply.  I am familiar with the two references you
mention.  Both are indeed valuable, but Professor Staal does not
discuss the question of whether Baudhaayana's formulation of the
Pythagorean theorem can be interpreted to include other figures
than squares in his "Greek and Vedic Mathematics" article, and I
do not think Professor Michaels discuss this either.

With best wishes,
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Wed Apr 11 19:27:07 2001
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 20:27:07 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104111150220.26667-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069136.23782.4171423600632799730.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Responding to Dominik,

>I noticed a new book by Elst which has the title "Update on the Aryan
>Invasion Debate".  I'm unaware that there exists such a debate.  Am I
>alone in thinking this?  I thought that any idea of an invasion as such
>was discredited thirty years ago.

Isn't this going a bit far ? Surely, the point is that no-one doubts
that Vedic is structurally related to other Indo-European languages
and not to e.g. Dravidian languages. No-one doubts that. Unless you
think that India was the original homeland of the Indo-European
languages, there is no doubt that the language was brought there.

After that , everything is speculation. It used to be thought that
there was some archaeological evidence for invasion, but that now
seems doubtful. So we cannot rule out the possibility of a gradual
spread as the result of peaceful immigration or trade. But it has to
be the less likely possibility. We know of no other case in which a
language has become so widespread in that way.

Of course, that wouldn't in any case necessarily mean that Indians
are mostly descended from the incomers.

Or, are you taking the Mick ?

Lance Cousins
--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE  Wed Apr 11 20:45:50 2001
From: zydenbos at LRZ.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 22:45:50 +0200
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104111150220.26667-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069129.23782.1112389203965394694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am Mit, 11 Apr 2001 schrieb Dominik Wujastyk:

> I noticed a new book by Elst which has the title "Update on the Aryan
> Invasion Debate".  I'm unaware that there exists such a debate.  Am I
> alone in thinking this?  I thought that any idea of an invasion as such
> was discredited thirty years ago.

Dominik,

That book is not so very new. One chapter in it is about me (or rather:
Elst's vision of me, inspired by what I had written years back in the
Indian Express in response to a piece by N.S. Rajaram) and led to an
exchange of messages here in September 1999, in which Dr. Elst
persisted in perpetuating a lie and twisting my writing beyond
recognition, meanwhile making a few more gaffes and then bowing out
with feigned indignation. The whole episode is packaged at two places:

http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html
http://www.bigfoot.com/~zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html

Rohan Oberoi's brief analysis of how the 'AIT debate' 'continues' is
quite accurate. I have also posted a rather explicit example of how
the phoney debate is used for propagating very modern political views:

http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/aitrisa.html
http://www.bigfoot.com/~zydenbos/aitrisa.html


Robert Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik, Universit?t M?nchen




From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr 12 03:53:02 2001
From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.)
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 01 22:53:02 -0500
Subject: Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069134.23782.10512422190423724216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>M.Witzel wrote:
>He has not even checked the text of RV 6.75.
>Small hint: perhaps he can explain to us what kind of recreational >generic
>vehicle (ratha) is used in 6.75.7 to trample down (ava-kram) >with the
>forelegs (prapad) of horses the enemies  (amitra), and kill (ksi) the
>enemies (zatru).
>

what details is there about the chariot ? how do you know what
kind of wheels ? how do you know how many wheels were there ?

You claim to be a philologist ?

>SuB. will have to check it,in Rgveda, Avestan,
>Hittite, Greek, Roman, and Celtic texts, then come back. He has not
>done this litle homework but always shifts the objective and asks new
>questions instead.

As usual Wizl. being unable to answer a question tries to assign
a homework.
The original question was how to identify a so called "indo-european
chariot as opposed to a non-indo-european one.

You cannot answer the question so you try to weasel out of it.

>
>This time about the vehicles of the Indus Valley Civ. --
>Well, he should not *ask* us, but *show* himself where there is a horse
>drawn, 2-wheeled, spoke-wheeled, CHARIOT in any "indigenous" Indus
>depiction, or as an object?
>
You show me evidence of such a chariot after the so called Aryan
invasion/migration between 1500-1000BC ?

You are the one who has built up all kinds of migrating Aryans
frightening the dravidians with their fast chariots, horses etc...

>In the meantime he should not bother us with shifting questions,
> >constantly diverting the discussion etc.,

Of course you are bothered by questions!!
Because your arguments are faulty and illogical, you try to
stop questions.

I must also point out, that you and your cohorts did not answer Dr.Kochhars
questions either.

The kinds of idiotic arguments given about modern day tanks being
transported on trucks being used to justify some fast imaginary aryan
chariot shows more about the whacko thinking of the euro-supremacist
academics.

Regards,
Subrahmanya
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From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr 12 00:08:31 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 01:08:31 +0100
Subject: Q: Historical Tamil syntax
Message-ID: <161227069132.23782.18033727228344170478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"avar nalla uyaramaay iruntaar" sounds real strange;
Does it not imply? :, "ippOtu avar uyaramaay illai"

Using present tense for past occurences is called
"kAla vazuvamaiti". I think you can find it in na_n_nUl grammar
some examples. "nA_n iLamaiyil viLaiyATuvatu intap paLLit tiNNai." etc
tiNai vazuvamaiti eg., calling the daughter: "vATA, vATA! kaTaikkup
pOkalAm." etc. iTa vazuvamaiti is there too.

----------------
Vidyanath Rao wrote:
<<<
I would like to know how far back we can trace the following usage in
Modern Tamil: The "future" form (historically derived from the
non-past) is also used in case of states considered to be intrinsic
or permanent, even if the referent is not alive. For example,

     1) avar nalla uyaramaay iruppaar
         He was quite tall. [In English, 'was' is required if the
         referent is dead.]
     2) madurai maNi iyer na_nRaaka shaNmugapriyaa paaDuvaar.
         Madurai Mani Iyer was good at singing Shanmugapriya.

It does not seem easy to find examples of such situations from the
oldest Tamil texts. Whether a given form is considered a participle
or a finite verb also seems to vary with the authority consulted,
making it harder to classify a given sentence as nominal or not.

[These cannot be waved away as historical presents. Use of past forms
here change the meaning: saying paaDi_naar in 2) makes it seem to
refer to a specific concert; saying iruntaar in 1) sounds strange.]
>>>
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From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU  Thu Apr 12 11:06:28 2001
From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 07:06:28 -0400
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069162.23782.4152905288441832484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What was discredited were claims that Harappan cities showed
unmistakeable archaeological evidence of violent destruction
presumably by invading Aryans (eg. unburied skeletons).  As you
rightly point out, that doesn't constitute positive evidence that
actual invasions did not occur.  The question is quite open (with
historical experience arguing that language transfer was almost
certainly partly mediated by migration, and that migration probably
involved at least some violent conflict).

As you might expect, this is an old question on the list.  See:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9409&L=indology&P=R1090

An interesting aspect of this question is the way that trends of
fashion within the discipline of archaeology have dovetailed with the
political desire in India to make ancient Indian civilisation
indigenous.  Archaeologists have been so eager to repudiate the
failings of earlier archaeologists, working mostly in Europe (who
tended to proclaim every new kind of pottery shard as evidence of a
new invading culture) that they have gone to the equally unreasonable
extreme of assuming that the absence of archaeological evidence
demonstrates the absence of invasions and migrations - despite the
numerous major migrations documented in the historical record which
have left little or no archaeological trace.

So "invasionist" is as much (and as unreasonably) a swear word to
archaeologists as it is to Hindu nationalists: even Colin Renfrew has
used the term in that sense.  There was a passage posted here --
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9803&L=indology&P=R13296
-- from Kenoyer with an interesting quote: "There is in fact no
archaeological or literary evidence for invasions during the period of
the Indus civilization's decline."

Perhaps remarks about the "discrediting" of invasions, rather than the
discrediting of the interpretation of the Harappan archaeological
record as a fairly clear case (like some layers of Troy) of a city
destroyed by invasion, reflect this "negative archaeological evidence"
fallacy.

-- Rohan.



L.S. Cousins wrote:

>>I noticed a new book by Elst which has the title "Update on the Aryan
>>Invasion Debate".  I'm unaware that there exists such a debate.  Am I
>>alone in thinking this?  I thought that any idea of an invasion as such
>>was discredited thirty years ago.
>
>Isn't this going a bit far ? Surely, the point is that no-one doubts
>that Vedic is structurally related to other Indo-European languages
>and not to e.g. Dravidian languages. No-one doubts that. Unless you
>think that India was the original homeland of the Indo-European
>languages, there is no doubt that the language was brought there.
>
>After that , everything is speculation. It used to be thought that
>there was some archaeological evidence for invasion, but that now
>seems doubtful. So we cannot rule out the possibility of a gradual
>spread as the result of peaceful immigration or trade. But it has to
>be the less likely possibility. We know of no other case in which a
>language has become so widespread in that way.
>
>Of course, that wouldn't in any case necessarily mean that Indians
>are mostly descended from the incomers.
>
>Or, are you taking the Mick ?
>
>Lance Cousins
>--
>HEADINGTON, UK
>
>CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
>selwyn at ntlworld.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Apr 12 14:26:32 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 07:26:32 -0700
Subject: Q: Historical Tamil syntax
In-Reply-To: <F189zAfquTT7u3C4G2a0000597b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227069148.23782.7046268933401807352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Grammarians use another famous sentence:

 "eRumpu muTTaikoNTu tiTTai ERin2 mazai peytatu."

Here, even though "peytatu" denotes past, it actually
means the future - "it's going to rain".

It's like someone saying in March 2000, "NASDAQ/DotCom
stocks crashed" if (s)he was sure.

Regards,
SM


--- Venkatraman Iyer <venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> "avar nalla uyaramaay iruntaar" sounds real strange;
> Does it not imply? :, "ippOtu avar uyaramaay illai"
>
> Using present tense for past occurences is called
> "kAla vazuvamaiti". I think you can find it in na_n_nUl grammar
> some examples. "nA_n iLamaiyil viLaiyATuvatu intap paLLit tiNNai." etc
> tiNai vazuvamaiti eg., calling the daughter: "vATA, vATA! kaTaikkup
> pOkalAm." etc. iTa vazuvamaiti is there too.
>
> ----------------
> Vidyanath Rao wrote:
> <<<
> I would like to know how far back we can trace the following usage in
> Modern Tamil: The "future" form (historically derived from the
> non-past) is also used in case of states considered to be intrinsic
> or permanent, even if the referent is not alive. For example,
>
>      1) avar nalla uyaramaay iruppaar
>          He was quite tall. [In English, 'was' is required if the
>          referent is dead.]
>      2) madurai maNi iyer na_nRaaka shaNmugapriyaa paaDuvaar.
>          Madurai Mani Iyer was good at singing Shanmugapriya.
>
> It does not seem easy to find examples of such situations from the
> oldest Tamil texts. Whether a given form is considered a participle
> or a finite verb also seems to vary with the authority consulted,
> making it harder to classify a given sentence as nominal or not.
>
> [These cannot be waved away as historical presents. Use of past forms
> here change the meaning: saying paaDi_naar in 2) makes it seem to
> refer to a specific concert; saying iruntaar in 1) sounds strange.]
> >>>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Apr 12 15:07:04 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 08:07:04 -0700
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041209182262@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069151.23782.863722207308198415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:27:07 +0100, L.S.Cousins <selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
>
>>Of course, that wouldn't in any case necessarily mean that Indians
>>are mostly descended from the incomers.
>
--- Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan <vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK> wrote a reply:
> Leaving aside the "incomer" part which is the bone of contention, why should
> it be "of course". Vedic milieu, provided the genetic and spiritual
"template"
> upon which subsequent Indian population have grown . That way, India is more
> aryan than Turkey Turkish or Morocco Arabic

"Bone of contention" - does this mean what Prof. Zydenbos calls the "phony
debate"? The academics of Indology are 100% unanimous that Aryans and
their languages ingressed into India. Prof. Fosse wrote his comments on
the OIT friends and their (analytical) approach.

Vedic Aryans are the "genetic template" for Indians??!! Indological research
shows that the Rigvedic Aryans who entered are a small percentage of the Indian
population. Sangam literature does not say that Southerners are Aryans,
in fact Aryans are an ethnic term for North Indians. Indologists,
Anthropologists, claim that Indians in the North changed to Aryan languages
when their elites imposed  by force, co-options (cf. chariots and archery).

The endowed Sanskrit professorships in Europe and elsewhere are due to the
growth of philology from 19th century. Hope Indologists work and use their
power
to include and create many Dravidian, Dalit, Village/local anthropology studies
positions in their Depts and funding mechanisms need to be nourished.

The Sanskrit Indologists claims will be bolstered by Dravidology professionals
in the decades to come, once they have the job in acclaimed Western
universities.

Regards,
SM


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From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Thu Apr 12 08:18:22 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 09:18:22 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069138.23782.13670503031103376903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:27:07 +0100, L.S.Cousins <selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:

>Of course, that wouldn't in any case necessarily mean that Indians
>are mostly descended from the incomers.

Leaving aside the "incomer" part which is the bone of contention, why should it
be "of course". Vedic milieu, provided the genetic and spiritual "template" upon
which subsequent Indian population have grown . That way, India is more aryan
than Turkey Turkish or Morocco Arabic




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Apr 12 08:52:06 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 10:52:06 +0200
Subject: SV: SV: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069140.23782.14350492936065791061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

David Salmon wrote:
>On the other hand, in Multan I once saw a super-large, four-wheeled oxcart
with rubber tires pulled by two magnificent, huge, pure creamy white oxen
of
the old Zebu type, huge curved horns rising above their heads, which could
have kept pace with some trucks....

I mentioned that the chariot was used for hunting. Here are a couple of
verses from the beginning of Kalidasa's Shakuntala, showing how the chariot
functioned. The king has been pursuing a deer for some time and describes
the speed and grace of the animal as it flees, "but lightly skimming the
ground". The charioteer answers:

"Long-lived one, seeing that the ground was uneven, I pulled up the reins
and slackened the speed of the chariot. But now that you are on level
ground, you will not find it difficult to overtake him."

The rest of the sequence leaves little to the imagination as far as speed
is concerned. One may argue that Kalidasa wrote long after the Vedic
period, but shouldn't we still combine this evidence with what we know of
Vedic chariots? Or should we assume that India in later times developed a
much faster and more agile chariot?

That wouldn't quite jibe with the idea that everything wonderful was
already invented in the Vedic period. If the Vedic literature describes a
chariot that seems to function the way described by Kalidasa, why not
assume that it was basically the same kind of contraption? Kalidasa's
chariot must have been light in order to move with a deer.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Thu Apr 12 11:33:44 2001
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 12:33:44 +0100
Subject: SV: SV: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069145.23782.1884748960067251574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:52:06 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO>
wrote:

>Kalidasa's
>chariot must have been light in order to move with a deer.

Ohh, a chariot that runs through woods/tall grass of the wild.
I just have to have it. Where can I get one?

BTW, I am still waiting for someone to demonstrate that a
harnessing system [as reconstructed by Sparreboom for the Vedic
chariot] consisting of a yoke placed on the withers, and
two straps, one around the neck and the other just inside the legs,
holding it down is in fact functional. Otherwise, we can only conclude
that the Vedic chariot is indeed just like Kalidasa's chariot or
the puSpaka vimaana of Kubera.




From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr 12 16:34:49 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 12:34:49 -0400
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069153.23782.1405893260979111812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Why does it need so much labor to get such a simple picture? The "self
interest" of the world population, I mean the self interest of individual
citizens of various lands can work in three ways.

1. Movement of money/capital through investment.

2. Movement of money/capital through trade.

3. Movement of people.

The first possibility is ruled out in ancient world. There is no way ancient
greece can invest money in Gupta civilization and expect a return after 5
years.

The second is very much possible. Capital "does" move by trade. A country
that produces best goods at a good price will attract more capital
accumulation through trade. But in trade, there is no movement of people,
and both parties benefit "nearly" equally. To be able to barter any one
item, the other partner must have something valuable to other partner. If
not, the barter ratio gets adjusted accordingly and it becomes "equal".
Pricing is a deep subject.

The third possibility is applicable only for two lands in the known history
of man kind: India and USA. No other country has the history of immigration
of people from "all over the world". Every other land had only sporadic or
limited immigration, or movements that wiped out earlier residents. If
people from all over the ancient world moved to India for warm waters or
peaceful quality life, some people may have moved in as immigrants, some as
invaders.

Indians are more or less Aryan? I hate this question, but I suppose (2)
maintains racial purity and (3) leads to mixing. What is more or less in
DNAs?

Regards
Bhadraiah


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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Apr 12 11:19:37 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 13:19:37 +0200
Subject: SV: Idiom, and, Grammar, (and, chariots, again!)
Message-ID: <161227069143.23782.5463554850783073650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Subrahmanya S. [SMTP:subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 12. april 2001 05:53:
> The kinds of idiotic arguments given about modern day tanks being
> transported on trucks being used to justify some fast imaginary aryan
> chariot shows more about the whacko thinking of the euro-supremacist
> academics.

For some time now, I have suspected that Subrahmania is not the person he
claims to be. His latest answer confirms my worst fears. Mr. Subrahmania is
not an OITer, he's an AITer!

In fact, I put it to you, Sir, that you are a closet invasionist who has
infiltrated the list with the sole purpose of discrediting the OITer cause
by the whimsical outlandishness of your arguments!

Although I cannot prove this, I strongly suspect that you are in collusion
with that infamous cohort Witzel and Farmer, since your answers to their
postings invariably make them seem more brilliant that they really are.

To put it bluntly, with an enemy like you, Mr. Subrahmania, who needs
friends?

May I kindly suggest that you come out of the closet and stop this silly
game? You have lost credibility as an OITer for the simple reason that
noone who can walk, talk and send emails is that stupid. Come out of the
closet, Mr. Subrahmania, and confess to your invasionism! Or else, give us
a break.

Supremely yours,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU  Thu Apr 12 18:30:11 2001
From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 14:30:11 -0400
Subject: Soap
In-Reply-To: <002001c0c376$21d77720$71cf0341@c1211450a>
Message-ID: <161227069160.23782.10428255593585031955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The French word for soap is <savon> and in Spanish it is jabon (accent on o).
The Hindi word could have derived from the Spanish/Portuguese.
Or, these latter languages might have borrowed the word from a Sanskrit/Hindi
term and absorbed it in their own languages.
V. V. Raman
April 12, 2001




From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU  Thu Apr 12 22:06:12 2001
From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 17:06:12 -0500
Subject: wheeled vehicles
Message-ID: <161227069168.23782.11883929768884080319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajesh Kochhar wrote:

>
> .
> In the Rgvedic context ......Rv 1. 164.2  uses "one-wheeled chariot" to imply the sun. Rv 1 164.11 says,+The wheel having 12 spokes revolve the heavens,but it does not weatr out.Oh Agni!720 pairs of sons ride this {wheel}.".

-------------

> And sometimes the chariot has seven wheels: AV XIX.53.2; and the Horse behind which there is a chariot? It has horns of gold, feet of iron and flies like a bird! RV I.163.8-9

-Narahari Achar




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Fri Apr 13 00:36:11 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 17:36:11 -0700
Subject: Panini inquiry
Message-ID: <161227069171.23782.7213940851658189279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a question for those on the List knowledgeable about
Panini. They are invited to respond on or off-List, as they see fit.

Does any evidence suggest that any of the ten named early
grammarians mentioned in the _Astadhyayi_ came from the NW?
Alternately, is there any other good evidence in the text of an
extended NW school of grammar that existed before the
_Astadhyayi_ was composed or compiled? My question isn't affected
by the current heated controversy over whether the_Astadhyayi_ is
an integral text (composed by "Panini" in the NW) or a heavily
stratified text simply redacted in the region.

Please note that in asking this I know the general comments about
"northern" and "eastern" grammarians in the _Astadhyayi_; am
aware of the existence of eastern figures among the ten earlier
grammarians named in the text; and am aware as well that certain
eastern traditions (e.g., the White Taittiriya) were apparently
not known to the author or compilers of the work.

My interest is in suggestion that traditional locations of the
(presumably) historical Panini in the NW aren't accidental, but
that Gandhara was associated from an early date (e.g., early
Achaemenid times) with a strong grammatical tradition. I am not
interested here in later Buddhist or Puranic testimonies about
learned traditions in the region, with which I am already
familiar.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

S. Farmer




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Fri Apr 13 01:12:37 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 18:12:37 -0700
Subject: Panini inquiry (corrected)
Message-ID: <161227069173.23782.10680230313484804595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     Correcting an obvious error in my original inquiry:

I have a question for those on the List knowledgeable about
Panini. They are invited to respond on or off-List, as they see fit.

Does any evidence suggest that any of the ten named early
grammarians mentioned in the _Astadhyayi_ came from the NW?
Alternately, is there any other good evidence in the text of an
extended NW school of grammar that existed before the
_Astadhyayi_ was composed or compiled? My question isn't affected
by the current heated controversy over whether the_Astadhyayi_ is
an integral text (composed by "Panini" in the NW) or a heavily
stratified text simply redacted in the region.

Please note that in asking this I know the general comments about
"northern" and "eastern" grammarians in the _Astadhyayi_; am
aware of the existence of eastern figures among the ten earlier
grammarians named in the text; and am aware as well that certain
eastern traditions (e.g., the White Yajurveda, the Taittiriya
Samhita's Brahmana portions) were apparently not known to
the author or compilers of the work.

My interest is in suggestion that traditional locations of the
(presumably) historical Panini in the NW aren't accidental, but
that Gandhara was associated from an early date (e.g., early
Achaemenid times) with a strong grammatical tradition. I am not
interested here in later Buddhist or Puranic testimonies about
learned traditions in the region, with which I am already
familiar.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

S. Farmer




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Apr 12 17:31:53 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 18:31:53 +0100
Subject: q. on Ambedkar
Message-ID: <161227069156.23782.8252388749178106437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

What does mahAr mean in Marathi/IA? Does it have anything to
do with music, drumming, etc.?

The Puri Jagannatha temple devadasis in Orissa are called mAhArIs.
Are mahAr caste name and mAhArI title related?

In the south India, the male members of the mELakkAran caste
are naTTuvans (teachers of catir nATyam), drummers in the temple etc,
and the females were dedicated as devadasis.

Historically, the members of temple musicians are gifted and many
rebelled against the caste system. In the musician-devadasi setup,
matriarchy gains ascendency (eg., Basavi property rights
in Karnataka) and caste rules were lot more lax and interaction
with temple priests were prescribed in the aagamas.

Kamban, the mahAkavi in Tamil, was an uvaccan/Occan by caste
(see L. C. Orr's book on chola temple women, for example)
and he knew Sanskrit well enough to render the entire Ramayana
into Tamil in his own way. Members of the Kambar caste are
worshippers of Kaali even today.

Possibly Kaalidaasa is also from temple musicians, (his name in
that early period sounds so un-brahminical), and Kaalidaasa
talks of Ujjain devadasis and describes the nAtyam so well in
mALavikAgnimitram.

Coming back, in Indo-Aryan languages what does mahAr mean?
Are mAhArI and mahAr related words?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan

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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Apr 12 19:51:55 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 20:51:55 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b6fa5de6076d@[213.105.122.110]>
Message-ID: <161227069164.23782.8186550464394555154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, L.S.Cousins wrote:
> After that , everything is speculation. It used to be thought that
> there was some archaeological evidence for invasion, but that now
> seems doubtful. So we cannot rule out the possibility of a gradual
> spread as the result of peaceful immigration or trade. But it has to
> be the less likely possibility. We know of no other case in which a
> language has become so widespread in that way.

No, I'm not taking the mick, but I think I may have been being a bit
faux-naive when I said I wasn't being disingenuous.

I would agree with your para above, which is pretty much what I've come to
believe too, after a certain amount of reading.  I think I might have been
clearer if I had emphasised the word *invasion*.  I thought all that was
based mainly on Mortimer-Wheeler's identification of a battle casualty in
the Mohenjo Daro skeleton of a woman on the steps of a well.  That
skeleton, and the others around it, are now more plausibly thought to be
disease casualties, perhaps cholera, perhaps malaria.

What puzzled me was a book being published in 2000 or 2001 referring in
its title still to this idea of "invasion".  My reading has led me, in an
admittedly amateurish way, to think that there has been some sort of
consensus amongst the best scholars for many decades now that a) the arya
people came into India in more than one migration (Burrow et passim), and
b) that the migration was either agricultural expansion (Renfrew) or some
other expansionist population movement, but by no means necessarily or
even probably a militaristic one.  Furthermore, the Bactria Margiana
Archeological Complex and related data cited by Parpola and Sarianidi
etc., suggest that military conflict, very likely involving aryas,
occurred *outside* the Indian peninsula.

Hence my puzzlement at a book which seemed (somebody stop me!) to be
flogging a dead horse.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Thu Apr 12 19:53:38 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 01 20:53:38 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069166.23782.14242777023541069653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:07:04 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan
<smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>"Bone of contention" - does this mean what Prof. Zydenbos calls the "phony
>debate"? The academics of Indology are 100% unanimous that Aryans and
>their languages ingressed into India.


Well, if you prefer a bone of contention between academics and millions of
ordinary people

>Vedic Aryans are the "genetic template" for Indians??!! Indological research
>shows that the Rigvedic Aryans who entered are a small percentage of the Indian
>population.

What is the percentage according to Indological research and what is the
confidence level of the percentage?




From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr 13 08:20:27 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 01:20:27 -0700
Subject: re. Soap
Message-ID: <161227069179.23782.8797633006803018106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Soap in Hindi is saabun, in German it's Seife, in Thai saabu, the same
like the French savon, etc. The derivation from fat/grease etc. may well
be right.

Another Sanskrit word for fat/grease may be vasa, which is the base for
Sanskrit vastra, clothes. Vastra would also be related to vest, or German
Weste, or classical/formal Thai vastraporn. This seems to indicate that
some clothes were made of animal skin.

By comparing the Indo-Germanic languages one finds (as seen above) many
amazing connections, esp. betweeen Sanskrit - German/English - Latin -
Thai, et al. Another example is Sanskrit ratha (chariot), which is
apparent in German Rad (wheel) and  Thai rot (vehicle). A rot-yon in Thai
is nothing but a ratha-yantra, a maschine-vehicle, i.e. a ?motor car?. The
English word wife, or German Weib (derogatory for woman), is directly
related to Urdu/Persian tawaif, which is s.th. like a concubine, dancing
girl or loose/(limber) woman. English and Persian are especially cloesly
related in the family tree of Indo-Germanic languages. Someone here says
that the name of the South Indian tribe Toda (originally probably from
Persia) is related to the word Deutsch (originally Teutsch) and means just
the same ? ?the people.? A fascinating subject!

Ven. Tantra (with friends)
Bombay and Singapore


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From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Fri Apr 13 01:14:54 2001
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 02:14:54 +0100
Subject: Q: Historical Tamil syntax
Message-ID: <161227069175.23782.6590566570575979544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 01:08:31 +0100, Venkatraman Iyer
<venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>"avar nalla uyaramaay iruntaar" sounds real strange;
>Does it not imply? :, "ippOtu avar uyaramaay illai"

It does, if in, say, a biography. But in an exchange like
"oruttar unnai tETi vantAr", "avar pArka eppiTi ituntAr?"
it seems that `iruntAr' is acceptable.


>Using present tense for past occurences is called
>"kAla vazuvamaiti". I think you can find it in na_n_nUl grammar
>some examples. "nA_n iLamaiyil viLaiyATuvatu intap paLLit tiNNai." etc
>tiNai vazuvamaiti eg., calling the daughter: "vATA, vATA! kaTaikkup
>pOkalAm." etc. iTa vazuvamaiti is there too.

With these types of examples, it is clear that the `normal' form
is in fact usual and the variant forms are `affective'. But, as
you point out above, with certain situations,
the verbal forms are not interchangable, at least in modern Tamil.
My questions if the same is true for Sangam Tamil and Medieval Tamil.




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Fri Apr 13 05:10:19 2001
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 06:10:19 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041209182262@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069177.23782.7418658139018410994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:27:07 +0100, L.S.Cousins <selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
>
>>Of course, that wouldn't in any case necessarily mean that Indians
>>are mostly descended from the incomers.
>
>Leaving aside the "incomer" part which is the bone of contention,
>why should it
>be "of course".

The expression 'of course' means 'admittedly'.

>  Vedic milieu, provided the genetic and spiritual "template" upon
>which subsequent Indian population have grown . That way, India is more aryan
>than Turkey Turkish or Morocco Arabic

It is not necessarily the case. An incoming group may establish the
dominance of their language. That doesn't inevitably mean that they
killed all the existing inhabitants - something that would be very
difficult to do without modern technology.

In general, it is the ruling groups that change under these
circumstances, not the mass of the population.

Lance Cousins
--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr 13 13:24:41 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 06:24:41 -0700
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041312173164@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069185.23782.8095819956647021528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The field has progressed since Minkowski wrote, at that time M. has not
seen Parpola's book. In his book and papers written after that,
P. does a synthesis of all available data from different foelds like
archaeology, linguistics and philology. For a short list:
http://www.acusd.edu/theo/risa-l/archive/msg04214.html

Even in a paper just very recently published in Japan, Prof. Parpola talks of
the number RV Aryans to be very small. Hence, my surprise at your
assertion that Vedic Aryans are the "genetic imprint" of Indians.
"race", "genes of Aryans", are out-of-date.

Consider this: why retroflexion, a prominent feature in Tamil,
is widespread all over India? Dravidologists consider this a major
element in the substratum at an all India level.

Regards,
SM

--- Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan <vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:07:04 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan
> <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> Indologists,
> >Anthropologists, claim that Indians in the North changed to Aryan languages
> >when their elites imposed  by force, co-options (cf. chariots and archery).
>
>
> Please refer to
>  http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9409&L=indology&P=R1090
> where the poster says
> ".  Whether the languages and cultures current in Northern South Asia
> when the "Aryans" arrived were "Dravidian" is a theory that has been
> suggested, but not proved, I do not think.
>
> But I would be glad to be corrected,
> Yours,
> C. Minkowski, Cornell U."


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From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Apr 13 13:50:02 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 09:50:02 -0400
Subject: Panini inquiry : Some Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <3AD65286.69A87B31@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227069188.23782.5933968791036386076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

on 4/12/01 9:12 PM, Steve Farmer at saf at safarmer.com wrote:

> Correcting an obvious error in my original inquiry:
>
> I have a question for those on the List knowledgeable about
> Panini. They are invited to respond on or off-List, as they see fit.
>
> Does any evidence suggest that any of the ten named early
> grammarians mentioned in the _Astadhyayi_ came from the NW?
> Alternately, is there any other good evidence in the text of an
> extended NW school of grammar that existed before the
> _Astadhyayi_ was composed or compiled? My question isn't affected
> by the current heated controversy over whether the_Astadhyayi_ is
> an integral text (composed by "Panini" in the NW) or a heavily
> stratified text simply redacted in the region.
>
> Please note that in asking this I know the general comments about
> "northern" and "eastern" grammarians in the _Astadhyayi_; am
> aware of the existence of eastern figures among the ten earlier
> grammarians named in the text; and am aware as well that certain
> eastern traditions (e.g., the White Yajurveda, the Taittiriya
> Samhita's Brahmana portions) were apparently not known to
> the author or compilers of the work.
>
> My interest is in suggestion that traditional locations of the
> (presumably) historical Panini in the NW aren't accidental, but
> that Gandhara was associated from an early date (e.g., early
> Achaemenid times) with a strong grammatical tradition. I am not
> interested here in later Buddhist or Puranic testimonies about
> learned traditions in the region, with which I am already
> familiar.
>
> Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
>
> S. Farmer


I am not sure it is possible to say with any confidence that any of the
grammarians referred to by Panini are from the NW region.  About the NW
region as the origin of grammatical thinking, I am not sure how one would go
about proving such a proposition.  In a forthcoming article by William
Malandra of University of Minnesota (in a volume that I am editing), he has
shown that there were Padapaa.tha like developments in the Avestan tradition
at some point.  The similarity, especially in splitting compounds, is so
remarkable, that this does seem to suggest a possible shared environment of
academic efforts in the NW region, a contact point for the Iranian and the
Vedic traditions.  Among the names of teachers cited by Panini,
Pau.skarasaadi (connected with Pu.skara?) and Zaakalya (connected with
Saagala, Sialkot?) may possibly be from the NW region.  It would be
interesting to see if the linguistic phenomena attributed to them have any
detectable NW linguistic features.  Best,

                                            Madhav Deshpande




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Fri Apr 13 13:58:04 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 09:58:04 -0400
Subject: re. Soap
In-Reply-To: <20010413082027.7961.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227069192.23782.12356319372640448606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Venerable Tantra writes about "A fascinating subject!"

Fascinating, perhaps, but mostly wrong:

>Indo-Germanic...  many
>amazing connections, esp. betweeen Sanskrit - German/English - Latin -
>Thai, et al.

It is news to linguists that Thai is an Indo-European language. They know,
however,  that it has many Skt.,/Pkt. loanwords. Such as the nicely chopped
(monosyllabized)  ratha, yantra:

>Sanskrit ratha (chariot)... Thai rot (vehicle). A rot-yon in Thai
>is nothing but a ratha-yantra, a maschine-vehicle, i.e. a ?motor car?.

> The
>English word wife, or German Weib (derogatory for woman), is directly
>related to Urdu/Persian tawaif, which is s.th. like a concubine....

directly? I do not find any IE etymology for the Persian word which looks
rather
Arabic to me (no guarantees).
wife/weib is probably from IE *weip and a derivative originally  indicating
the veil of brides (Pokorny, p. 1132). Anyhow, it would have yielded *vaip-
in Avestan and Old Persian, and  *vev- in Modern Persian....  not ta-waif.
And what is ta-??

> English and Persian are especially cloesly
>related in the family tree of Indo-Germanic languages.

The briefest check of  any linguistic handbook will indicate that  Persian
is closest related to the Indian branch of IE (Sanskrit, Prakrit and the
NIA languages), not to English and the other Germanic languages.

>Someone here says
>that the name of the South Indian tribe Toda (originally probably from
>Persia) is related to the word Deutsch (originally Teutsch) and means just
>the same "the people." A fascinating subject!

deutsch is of course an adjective derived from Germanic *thiuda 'people'
(O.Engl. dheod; all connected with O. Irish tuath, Lithuanian tauta
'people', thus IE *teuta), -- whence Old High German diutisc, Dutch
duits(ch)   [--> Engl. Dutch], etc. etc. Cf. also the Latin adaptation
theodiscus  'belonging the people, the people's [language, not Latin]'.

Many tribes call themselves after their own words for 'man, human, people'.

Toda has nothing to do with deutsch/*teuta, etc.; see Burrow-Emeneau, DEDR
3504.
An IE tribe migrating, sorry invading, to Toda-land?
(pace Parpola).



========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Fri Apr 13 09:10:48 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 10:10:48 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069181.23782.11032986265384920806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 06:10:19 +0100, L.S.Cousins <selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:


>It is not necessarily the case. An incoming group may establish the
>dominance of their language. That doesn't inevitably mean that they
>killed all the existing inhabitants - something that would be very
>difficult to do without modern technology.
>
>In general, it is the ruling groups that change under these
>circumstances, not the mass of the population.


Your second para holds true even in the case of language, even assuming the
rulers linguistically differed from the ruled.. For example, Mongols ruled
Persia for three generations, but merged in the latter completely, ethnically
and linguistically. The same thing happened to the barbarians who captured Rome
in it's downfall.

The period we are talking about in India i.e. the second millenneum BC, does not
have any reliable historical records. It looks like a fanciful speculation to
assume that masses of Indians were waiting to relieved of their language, gods,
and women by some chariot driving and arrow wielding "foreigners" - who it is
assumed were only a small percentage - as another poster writes.




From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr 13 17:17:26 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 10:17:26 -0700
Subject: re. Soap
Message-ID: <161227069203.23782.9193461316877241804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A poster wrote:

<< By comparing the Indo-Germanic languages one finds ... connections,
esp. between Sanskrit - German/English - Latin ? Thai... >>

I believe here the writer has simply ? though perhaps too casually -
remarked that by investigating Indo-European languages one also becomes
aware of such derived loan words in the Thai language. I am positive the
writer is fully aware that Thai is not an IE language, and I personally
would not have interpreted the above sentence as declaring so.

Witzel however writes:

<<It is news to linguists that Thai is an Indo-European language. They
know, however,  that it has many Skt.,/Pkt. loanwords.>>

Yes, both directly and via Khmer and Malay. And don?t forget Pali and the
odd Tamil.



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From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Fri Apr 13 11:17:31 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 12:17:31 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069183.23782.10910466199565318530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:07:04 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan
<smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

Indologists,
>Anthropologists, claim that Indians in the North changed to Aryan languages
>when their elites imposed  by force, co-options (cf. chariots and archery).


Please refer to
 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9409&L=indology&P=R1090
where the poster says
".  Whether the languages and cultures current in Northern South Asia
when the "Aryans" arrived were "Dravidian" is a theory that has been
suggested, but not proved, I do not think.

But I would be glad to be corrected,
Yours,
C. Minkowski, Cornell U."




From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 13 17:45:45 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 13:45:45 -0400
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069205.23782.1625286756230454085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>So either 'Indians' went out from India and spread a version of their
>language all over Europe and elsewhere or people came from outside
>and brought that language to India. There are all sorts of problems
>with the former assumption and all sorts of evidence it would come up
>against. So we have to accept that at some point the language was
>brought in.

Never mind how vedic concepts evolved within or entered into India, It is
clear the culture incubated in Indian subcontinent and there was enough
leasure time to develop into 1000 or more zAkhAs. This means there was
financial stability.

Now invasions have their own logic. An outsider may come and invade for
money, whereas an insider may go out and invade nearby kingdoms to make them
vedic, so as to keep some buffer kingdoms and Sanskritize them to protect
themselves for strategic reasons (I don't know how many kings had this
vision, but definitely some kings must have it.) The fact that an outside
philosophy that is alien to veda hadn't reached India till Ghajni should
prove that the defense layers were pretty strong.

>Anything else is open to debate. It could conceivably have been
>earlier than the second millennium. But at present the best guess as
>to when it happened is that period.

This needs quantitative studies in terms of populations, purchasing power of
gold etc, wealth of kingdoms etc, not just qualitative linguistic studies.
For example one bench mark may be : How many recensions of Rgveda were there
in 1200BC? How many were left in 700AD? Assuming we start with the
ridiculous "1 recension" in 1200BC to 1000  recensions in 700AD, we will
have an average of 500 recensions.   How much manpower is needed to maintain
an average of 500 recensions of Rgveda for at least 1900 years starting
1200BC to 700AD? How much money is needed to support this effort? What was
the financial strength of kings who had this much spare money? .. just a few
questions..

Regards
Bhadraiah
_________________________________________________________________
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From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Fri Apr 13 14:28:27 2001
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 15:28:27 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041310104904@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069195.23782.12613217307145801617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vanbakkam Vijayraman wrote:

>Your second para holds true even in the case of language, even assuming the
>rulers linguistically differed from the ruled.. For example, Mongols ruled
>Persia for three generations, but merged in the latter completely, ethnically
>and linguistically. The same thing happened to the barbarians who
>captured Rome
>in it's downfall.

Not in the case of the Anglo-Saxons. Another example would be Spanish
in Latin America. Or, Han Chinese. The last two examples are
particularly instructive. If a single language imposes itself over an
area by a combination of trade, culture spread and arms and the other
languages in that area are many and small-scale, then the single
language is likely to eventually replace the others.

>The period we are talking about in India i.e. the second millenneum
>BC, does not
>have any reliable historical records. It looks like a fanciful speculation to
>assume that masses of Indians were waiting to relieved of their
>language, gods,
>and women by some chariot driving and arrow wielding "foreigners" - who it is
>assumed were only a small percentage - as another poster writes.

In fact, the total population would have been quite low then. But the
point is that all this would have happened quite gradually over a
very long period of time.

But it is not a speculation because the language facts are
incontrovertible. Anyone who knows both Greek and Sanskrit can see
this easily.

So either 'Indians' went out from India and spread a version of their
language all over Europe and elsewhere or people came from outside
and brought that language to India. There are all sorts of problems
with the former assumption and all sorts of evidence it would come up
against. So we have to accept that at some point the language was
brought in.

Anything else is open to debate. It could conceivably have been
earlier than the second millennium. But at present the best guess as
to when it happened is that period.

Lance Cousins
--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr 13 16:02:08 2001
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 17:02:08 +0100
Subject: re. Soap
Message-ID: <161227069198.23782.4935850331792241141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:58:04 -0400, Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>
wrote:

>The Venerable Tantra writes about "A fascinating subject!"
>
>
>>Someone here says
>>that the name of the South Indian tribe Toda (originally probably from
>>Persia) is related to the word Deutsch (originally Teutsch) and means just
>>the same "the people." A fascinating subject!
>
>deutsch is of course an adjective derived from Germanic *thiuda 'people'
>(O.Engl. dheod; all connected with O. Irish tuath, Lithuanian tauta
>'people', thus IE *teuta), -- whence Old High German diutisc, Dutch
>duits(ch)   [--> Engl. Dutch], etc. etc. Cf. also the Latin adaptation
>theodiscus  'belonging the people, the people's [language, not Latin]'.
>
>Many tribes call themselves after their own words for 'man, human, people'.
>
>Toda has nothing to do with deutsch/*teuta, etc.; see Burrow-Emeneau, DEDR
>3504.
>An IE tribe migrating, sorry invading, to Toda-land?
>(pace Parpola).

The indigenous name for Toda is Ahl which is cognate with 'person' in
Dravidian (specially Tamil)

"Among the five tribal groups of the Nilgiri massif, the 1200 Toda (known
by themselves as the Ahl)"

 http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/cultural/oldworld/middle_east/toda.html

Raveen




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sat Apr 14 00:37:34 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 17:37:34 -0700
Subject: Response to S Bhatta <attahb@REDIFFMAIL.COM>
Message-ID: <161227069215.23782.18148092556306202300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Indology Archives show that since 7 April 2001 four posts
have been directed against me from the previously unknown name
and address S Bhatta <attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM>.

These are the ONLY posts ever sent to the Indology List from this
name or address. I have no idea who S Bhatta is/are, but it is
clear that every post made from this address has contained an
attack on me.

It is time for these attacks to desist.

S. Bhatta's most recent complaint is that I don't have the right,
again since I'm a comparativist and not Sanskrit specialist, to
ask Panini experts a question about northwest grammarians in the
early Achaemenid era. My underlying question was pertinent to
ongoing studies of canonization processes throughout Eurasia, and
has nothing really to do with Sanskrit -- although the answer to
my question may have some implications for Vedicists.

My question received detailed and helpful responses both on and
off List from prominent Vedic and Panini experts. I have my
doubts that S Bhatta's email box frequently contains such
messages.

Like all other sciences, the historical sciences are or should be
collaborative endeavors. Major advances, especially in premodern
Eurasian studies, demand the work of linguists, philologists,
archaeologists, anthropologists, population biologists,
comparative historians, and regional historians all working
together.

Collaborative efforts of this nature have a major theoretical as
well as empirical component; that theoretical component is
promoted by breadth of knowledge in many areas no less than
expertise in single fields. Fresh ideas in collaborations
frequently come from researchers in any field involved in the
collaboration, but everyone involved knows that before being
accepted those ideas must be tested *rigorously* by specialists
in all the involved fields.

So the key term that S Bhatta needs to think here about is
'collaboration.' I have my own linguistic talents and skills and
I am in nearly daily contact with ssome of the best Sanskritists
in the world (also other languages). I seriously doubt that S
Bhatta can match the research resources of both linguistic and
historical nature available to me.

In any event, I've had enough of S Bhatta, and I *again*
challenge him/her/them to discuss some substantial issue with me
-- or to kindly shut up. My last such challenge was ignored.

Lots of research energy is being wasted. Or is wasting my time,
making it unpleasant for me to post, as I suspect, *precisely*
what S Bhatto has/have in mind?

S. Farmer




From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 13 21:42:08 2001
From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 17:42:08 -0400
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227069213.23782.13113354231933215368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Bhatta:

I feel that your last comments about Dr. Farmer's postings seemed more like
a personal attack than a critique that could be useful for list members.

Dr. Farmer's last posting was obviously one of inquiry concerning Panini
etc. I didn't think that it was from the standpoint of an expert at all.

You have made a good point about not claiming expertise on texts which are
written in a language that one knows imperfectly. That point is well taken
by myself and probably most people in Indological studies.

My impression was that Dr. Farmer admitted this point, although I am sure
that he will speak for himself on this.

I am not sure what purpose it serves to "rub one's point in", and that is my
impression of what is happening.

Lynken Ghose
>Of late I have been intrigued by the postings of Dr. Steven Farmer.
>
>Dr. Farmer admits he is not a Vedicist, is not proficient in the grammar
>and
>language of Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise), but has concluded that,
>nevertheless, he is qualifiied to post on Vedic matters, Indological
>matters, in
>that he is a Comparative Historian who has mastered several Western
>languages.
>
>During my last few posts, I have questioned not the secondary sources to
>which he has relied, but have instead directly questioned his
>qualifications to
>post on Vedic matters in that he is not proficient in Sanskrit (Vedic or
>otherwise).
>
>For, from my perspective, it is ludricrous to merely point one's fingers at
>stack
>of translations to grind one's own axe in that the language, in its orginal
>form,
>must be impressed permanently within the mind and heart of the student in
>order for one to proper make an utterance.
>
>However it seems, my point of view, espcially in light of Dr. Farmer's
>methodology, my approach is somewhat antiquated.
>
>Dr. Farmer though has admitted that language proficiency is important, but
>what he has not admitted or demostrated is that language proficiency on the
>subject which one addresses is a necessity.
>
>Just today, Dr. Farmer has now posted an enquiry on Panini.
>
>I do not understand this: How can one just jump about like this, from Vedic
>to
>Panini as if it they were TV programs which one flits between with a flick
>of the
>button on the channel changer?
>
>True scholars of Sanskrit are limited to a certain realm of thought.
>
>For example, unlike Dr. Farmer, Dr. George Thompson and Dr. Witzel, rightly
>so, have mostly spilled most of their ink on Vedic matters and I believe
>would
>never even attempt to discuss matters of which they has not been properly
>versed in that it is beyond the scope of their experience and training.
>
>Thus my *specific questions* in re to methodology in the American Academy
>are:
>
>1) Is a proficiency in language a thing of the past?
>
>2) Are secondary sources the preffered choice of citation today?
>
>3) Is scholarship more akin surfing the internet, where one achieves to
>have a
>New York minute with the language, author, culture, and text rather than to
>absorb one's self with it incrementally?
>
>4) Along with God, is Philology now dead also?
>
>SB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at
>http://bol.rediff.com

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE  Fri Apr 13 16:04:34 2001
From: lukas.werth at RZ.HU-BERLIN.DE (Lukas Werth)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 18:04:34 +0200
Subject: "invasion"?
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b6fcb4c47116@[213.105.124.20]>
Message-ID: <161227069200.23782.3107308443641213828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

SNIP
>So we have to accept that at some point the language was
>brought in.
>
>Anything else is open to debate. It could conceivably have been
>earlier than the second millennium. But at present the best guess as
>to when it happened is that period.
>
>Lance Cousins
>--


I have one question here: is it really not possible that the processes in
question here happened later than the second millennium, or about at the
end of it?

Lukas Werth




From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Fri Apr 13 17:56:43 2001
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 18:56:43 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit causing problems in studies ?
Message-ID: <161227069207.23782.10383625980711420420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sanskrit causing problems in studies

Kathmandu Post Report

KATHMANDU, April 12 - Nepal Janajati and Adivasia Students' Assembly, an
association of indigenous nationalities and natives Thursday said they
encountered difficulties while persuing their education after the induction
of Sanskrit as a compulsory subject in the school curriculum.

Speaking at a meeting called by the Nepal Janajati-Adivasi Students'
Association, Ram Bahadur Thapa Mangar, President of the Association
said, "constitution says it has equal respect for all the peoples and
dialects but in practice there is huge gap between the preveleged Brahmins
and Janajatis."

They also demand that they need to be provided with text books in the
schools in their own indigenous dialect.

"Our plan is to mobilse students in the struggle for better education and
unite to fight all forms of discrimination," said Rajan Yonjon, General
Secretary of Nepal Janjati-Adivasi Students' Association.

Meanwhile, a press statement issued by the Nepal Tamang Ghedung said that
despite the recognition given to all the spoken languages by the 2047
Constitution, it has been discriminatory in practice.

A committee has been formed under the chairmanship of Sarbagya Ratna,
former Attorney General and chief Advocate which will press for its demand
in the upcoming Parliamentary meet, said the release.

Kathmandu Post




From attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Fri Apr 13 19:23:15 2001
From: attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM (S Bhatta)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 19:23:15 +0000
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227069209.23782.4256778138418028432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Of late I have been intrigued by the postings of Dr. Steven Farmer.

Dr. Farmer admits he is not a Vedicist, is not proficient in the grammar and
language of Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise), but has concluded that,
nevertheless, he is qualifiied to post on Vedic matters, Indological matters, in
that he is a Comparative Historian who has mastered several Western
languages.

During my last few posts, I have questioned not the secondary sources to
which he has relied, but have instead directly questioned his qualifications to
post on Vedic matters in that he is not proficient in Sanskrit (Vedic or
otherwise).

For, from my perspective, it is ludricrous to merely point one's fingers at stack
of translations to grind one's own axe in that the language, in its orginal form,
must be impressed permanently within the mind and heart of the student in
order for one to proper make an utterance.

However it seems, my point of view, espcially in light of Dr. Farmer's
methodology, my approach is somewhat antiquated.

Dr. Farmer though has admitted that language proficiency is important, but
what he has not admitted or demostrated is that language proficiency on the
subject which one addresses is a necessity.

Just today, Dr. Farmer has now posted an enquiry on Panini.

I do not understand this: How can one just jump about like this, from Vedic to
Panini as if it they were TV programs which one flits between with a flick of the
button on the channel changer?

True scholars of Sanskrit are limited to a certain realm of thought.

For example, unlike Dr. Farmer, Dr. George Thompson and Dr. Witzel, rightly
so, have mostly spilled most of their ink on Vedic matters and I believe would
never even attempt to discuss matters of which they has not been properly
versed in that it is beyond the scope of their experience and training.

Thus my *specific questions* in re to methodology in the American Academy
are:

1) Is a proficiency in language a thing of the past?

2) Are secondary sources the preffered choice of citation today?

3) Is scholarship more akin surfing the internet, where one achieves to have a
New York minute with the language, author, culture, and text rather than to
absorb one's self with it incrementally?

4) Along with God, is Philology now dead also?

SB








_____________________________________________________
Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at
http://bol.rediff.com




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sat Apr 14 02:25:28 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 19:25:28 -0700
Subject: Astology announcement
Message-ID: <161227069224.23782.4197293782053061779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" wrote:

> It is evident that ego is playing its ugly role in the
> postings by dr. witzel.

L. Suresh Kumar-LSK's home pages are recommended reading:

http://lskumar.tripod.com/

Passing by LSK's rightwing political rhetoric -- these are not
scholars' pages -- click on the "Astrology" link. For only $50
LSK promises to link you up to his astrologer uncle "NSU" -- who
"hails from a family of astrologers for almost 12 generations."

There we find:

> NSU had even predicted my date of birth and other important events,
> well before I was born. Many other predictions based on mine, my
> parents, my family friends' and other relatives'
> horoscopes are phenomenally accurate.
...
> If you are REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT ASKING FOR ASTROLOGICAL
> PREDICTIONS ONLY, then please send me an email, giving your
> DOB-POB-Exact-TOB information. I shall do the needful
> in this regard. If you want to talk to him or write to him
> directly, please do enclose a cheque or
> bank-draft for 50$ [USD], payable in his name, to ...

This is Michael Witzel's critic??




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Sat Apr 14 03:36:56 2001
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 20:36:56 -0700
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
In-Reply-To: <v0401170db6fd2c894765@[209.6.202.142]>
Message-ID: <161227069228.23782.15830180354679398166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
>..
>
> Why? Simply because we like to listen to each other's points of view. We
> both bring in items that are not (prominent) in the background of the
> other. Thus, we have been going on about topics such as canonization, now
> Panini etc., for a long time (off list). Simply because we learn from each
> other. S. Farmer has helped me to rethink a number of my major positions
> and even more so on details,

I hope people see the bloated "ego" (as big as an Ivy League prof's can get)
of Dr. Witzel here admitting that he has learnt a lot quantitatively and
qualitatively from someone who  has just come under fire for not being expert
in Witzel's area.

If that is ego for some folks, we would like to  see more of it!

Regards,
P. Chandrasekaran.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Apr 14 00:43:57 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 20:43:57 -0400
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
In-Reply-To: <20010413192315.17232.qmail@mailweb22.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227069218.23782.3643822979048036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Let me come to the aid of S. Farmer, my "cohorts and alter boy" (sic, NS
Rajaram et al.) !    --

Avid readers of this list may recall that S.Farmer and I have exchanged
some heated arguments about the first writing down of Vedic texts, about a
year ago. In the meantime, however, we have even collaborated in writing a
much decried paper (decried only by 'patriotic'/nationalistic people, that
is).

Why? Simply because we like to listen to each other's points of view. We
both bring in items that are not (prominent) in the background of the
other. Thus, we have been going on about topics such as canonization, now
Panini etc., for a long time (off list). Simply because we learn from each
other. S. Farmer has helped me to rethink a number of my major positions
and even more so on details, and so I hope so have I, with regards to his
positions. And, we will continue to do so at the 3rd Harvard Round Table on
the Ethnogenesis of  South ands Central Asia in May. (We will report on
interesting results here.)

This is of course precisely what this list should be about. Unfortunantely,
it has been hijacked, all too often, by vested interests, with barrages of
messages on irrelevant or non-Indological topics. Or by those who  -- in
contrary to the stated goals of the list --  have only very superficial or
no knowledge of the field whatsoever.  (It is not enough to have been born
in Tierra del Fuego to be a specialist of that remote land, its history,
anthropology, linguistics, etc. You recall Prof. Raman's distinction of
Exo- and Endo-Indologists).

Naturally, this attitude and  decrying it has annoyed people on both sides,
from time to time, and I have contributed my share. I apologize for some
ascerbic messages but, as the British say  so eloquently: I do not suffer
fools lightly.

                                        ***

Which brings me to the never-ending "invasion". Apart from the fact that
this 'debate' has been going on since the times of Dayanand Sarasvati and
Aurobindo, it also has been repeated several times on this list, as today's
quote of C. Minkowski's1994 message indicates. (NB: why has he stopped
writing to the list? see below!)

It should be pointed out, however that the Indological position has changed
considerably since Dayanand's and certainly so since Mortimer Wheeler's
time.  Those who care will see that Indologists have begun to modify their
position already about 1950 (e.g. FBJ Kuiper), befofe teh archaeologists or
others did  so, and that we now have a host of possible scenarios for the
introduction of Indo-Aryan into the subcontinent.

This is generally *not* understood by the more 'patriotic'  discussants.
They insist on an either/ or, which -- to me -- looks rather 'Semetic'
(sic! their favorite term): where is India's famous 'tolerance', or let us
put it this way: her receptiveness for multiple explanations?

For example, I have recently been maligned on another list simply for
pointing out several such concurrent scenarios, all of which may have
applied over the Vedic period, at different times, and in different parts
of the Northwest and beyond. The Rgveda should be tested against all of
them. (Listed already in my very much hated 1995 paper:
Early Indian history: Linguistic and textual parameters In: The Indo-Aryans
of Ancient South Asia. G. Erdosy (ed.), (Indian Philology and South Asian
Studies, A. Wezler and M. Witzel, eds.),  vol. 1,  Berlin/New York: de
Gruyter 1995, 85-125 -- cf. also the companion piece:  Rgvedic history:
poets, chieftains and polities. G. Erdosy (ed.), The Indo-Aryans of Ancient
South Asia, 307-354.

Curiously, my detractors have not read there on the other scenarios
discussed, other than that of straighforward IA invasion and conquest
(which I did not promote), and on my criticism of past history writing or
the vicious circles of the unchecked use of information by
archaeologists/linguists -- which actually was the topic of our 1991
Toronto conference and the reason why A. Wezler and I published that
paradigmantic volume of IPSAS.

They merely picked out my criticism of the present wave of nationalistic
rewriting of Indian history of 2600-500 (BCE, that is!).    Oh, well.

I think in our present discussion it is important to stress that, in the
case of the Indo-Aryans, we do not simply have language take over  (for a
more or less peaceful one covering a very large territory, note Suahili:
from Zanzibar to E. Congo., from Kenya to N. Mozambique..)
but we also have the take-over by local people of the *whole set* of
spiritual culture (complicated IE/ IIr poetics!, ritual, religion, etc. --
something that did, by and large,  not happen in the Suahili case), and
also the take-over of some material culture (complicated chariot building,
import of horses, dress, hair style, but also rather primitive ritual
implements & pottery, etc.). We need a model that covere all such changes.

C. Ehret's "elite kit" and a post-Indus, opportunistic shift to more
pastoralism will work best here.  No big wave of "invaders" is necessary
then, just some Afghani tribesmen who chose to stay in their winter
quarters in the Indus,  instead of going back to the Afghani highlands (as
they  did in Avestan times and as they still do.)

Such a group could  set off a wave of change, with adaptation (and further
change!) of the dominant elite kit, all across the Panjab and beyond...
(See forthcoming EJVS 7-3).

This type of discussion has not even begun on this list.  Much of it is put
in strangely absolute terms, such as: how can a small number of peopl
'convert' a  'large' number of local poeple to a new language...  But, such
mechanisms are known, and they do not depend on the number of people who
instigate the change...

Think of the (Renrew type, elite dominance) case of few hundred French
speaking Norman knights in England after 1066, which changed the country's
dominant language to French --- only to revert to a very much changed
Anglo-Saxon a few hundred years later. Many other scenarios could be
listed...

Hope this helps.

navavarSa-zubhakaamanaa  & ditto, for  Passover  &  Easter!

=============================================


S Bhatta <attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM>:
>Of late I have been intrigued by the postings of Dr. Steven Farmer.
>
>Dr. Farmer admits he is not a Vedicist, is not proficient in the grammar and
>language of Sanskrit (Vedic or otherwise), but has concluded that,
>nevertheless, he is qualifiied to post on Vedic matters, Indological
>matters, in
>that he is a Comparative Historian
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Apr 13 21:06:30 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 22:06:30 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] "Ven. Tantra" a group
Message-ID: <161227069211.23782.15247350807905285395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It has come to my attention that the email address "Ven. Tantra" is in
fact being used by more than one person to post to the INDOLOGY list.

I thought people should know.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA  Sat Apr 14 02:19:05 2001
From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 22:19:05 -0400
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069221.23782.17542370095665214786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is evident that ego is playing its ugly role in the
postings by dr. witzel.




From lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA  Sat Apr 14 02:52:21 2001
From: lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA (L. Suresh Kumar-LSK)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 01 22:52:21 -0400
Subject: Astology announcement
Message-ID: <161227069226.23782.13761989600110413079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Farmer

I care the least for egotists like you and Witzel.

- Suresh 




From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr 14 14:12:59 2001
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 07:12:59 -0700
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069242.23782.4790476000524733313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
While language replacement on a very wide scale can
happen, one with relatively little effect on the
intrusive language (e.g., Professor Witzel's EJVS paper
on substrate languages in old Indo-Aryan, and compare to
non-I-E in Hittite or Greek ) is much harder to imagine.
The remnants of the Harappan civilization must have been
meagre indeed. -Arun Gupta
>>>

T. Burrow, `On the significance of the term arma-, armaka-
in early Sanskrit literature', Journal of Indian history,
41, 1963, 159-166.

"The Aryans were aware of the numerous ruined Indus sites
among which they lived, and they referred to them by the
term arma, armaka, 'ruined site, ruins'. Among the
references to these the following is of particular
significance: *The people to whom these ruined sites,
lacking posts, formerly belonged, these many settlements
widely distributed. they, O, Vaishvaanara, having been
expelled by thee, having migrated to another land*."
(Taittiriya Brahmana II, 4, 6, 8.)

Burrow concludes (p. 166):  'They confirm the theory that
it was in fact the Aryans who were responsible for the
overthrow of the Indus civilisation, they show that for
centuries the most important of these ruins were
conspicuous features of the countryside and they supply
interesting information about the location of some of
them.'

I think Burrow's conclusion need to be modified on
account of: 1) the falling dates of iron in India,
2) the date of the RV assigned some centuries later
than conventionally held by Indologists.

The Harappan civilization already collapsed, and a
majority (elites?) have already moved to the South and
elsewhere in India.

The Aryans with the new "technology" of religion, ritual,
chariots, and horses saw a lot of ruined sites, and a
sparse meagre population around 1200-1000 BCE in the
Indus culture zone.

And, implemented a language shift amongst those.
This myth, ritual, magic "technology" was carried on to
other places in India with varying degrees of success
in the following centuries co-opting with the locals.

Regards,
Prasad


_________________________________________________________________
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From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr 14 11:50:08 2001
From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 07:50:08 -0400
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069232.23782.16363838972763990803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof Witzel,

>It should be pointed out, however that the Indological position has
> >changed considerably..

It is nice to know, but popular perceptions about AIT have not changed in
the west probably because your research remained in lab and it had not
spread to masses "in the countries who provide grants to your universities"
like Germany and US. (I don't expect you to solve world hunger).

...
>They merely picked out my criticism of the present wave of nationalistic
>rewriting of Indian history of 2600-500 (BCE, that is!).

On the contrary you are worried that VOI publications may spread falsehood
among Indians and make them more nationalistic. Please be assured that no
hell will fall on India.

The danger of false perception among public is universal, and scholars must
do something for the country that supports them. But why this special effort
about India ignoring your own svadharma? paradharmo bhayAnakaH.

The reason why Rajaram, Talageri get accepted is because it is refreshing to
see something different. They will also become obsolete if they are wrong
and time will tell. No one had promoted their findings in this list except
via URLs, but there was over reaction from all sides.

All the best for your ventures. It is true that there are several scenarios,
so we like to have a structured decision tree of possibilities instead of
one final version.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah



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From s-lindquist at THE-FOUNDRY.NET  Sat Apr 14 06:30:51 2001
From: s-lindquist at THE-FOUNDRY.NET (Steven E. Lindquist)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 12:00:51 +0530
Subject: Astology announcement
In-Reply-To: <000701c0c48d$ee6b0dc0$149dfea9@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <161227069230.23782.9164350150594462092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Having an "ego" is simply a condition of being human (particularly for an
academic, whether Indian, German, American, etc.).  Letting the village
idiot (Mr. Bhatta and others) speak is a condition of democracy.  Responding
to such nonsense, however, wastes bandwidth and only makes the writer feel
vindicated.

S. Farmer may not be a specialist, but he has added more to the quality of
this list than others.  I only wish others here were that "unqualified."

s

--
Steven E. Lindquist
email: s-lindquist at the-foundry.net

In the US:                    In India:
Doctoral Candidate            AIIS Junior Fellow/Affiliated Research Scholar
Dept. of Asian Studies        Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
University of TX at Austin    Pune, Maharashtra
--

> From: "L. Suresh Kumar-LSK" <lskumar at SYMPATICO.CA>
> Organization: http://www.lskumar.com
> Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:52:21 -0400
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Re: Astology announcement
>
> Farmer
>
> I care the least for egotists like you and Witzel.
>
> - Suresh
>




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Apr 14 12:05:23 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 13:05:23 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] "Ven. Tantra" a group
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104132205210.12830-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069234.23782.16896047748292639704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ven Tantra has now written to me suggesting that I misunderstood his
statement about this topic.  As members will know, VT likes to adopt an
allusive and oblique style of writing, so I may have misunderstood his
intentions.  At the moment I still don't know, but I have asked for
clarification.

Does anyone on the list know Ven. Tantra personally; have you met him?

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.



On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> It has come to my attention that the email address "Ven. Tantra" is in
> fact being used by more than one person to post to the INDOLOGY list.
>
> I thought people should know.
>




From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Sat Apr 14 12:42:40 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 13:42:40 +0100
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069236.23782.11174147409489576279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

While language replacement on a very wide scale can happen,
one with relatively little effect on the intrusive language (e.g.,
Professor Witzel's EJVS paper on substrate languages in old Indo-Aryan,
and compare to non-I-E in Hittite or Greek ) is much harder to
imagine.  The remnants of the Harappan civilization must have been
meagre indeed.

-Arun Gupta




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Apr 14 13:18:50 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 14:18:50 +0100
Subject: "invasion"?
Message-ID: <161227069238.23782.18185516219151392136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Witzel wrote:
>Why? Simply because we like to listen to each other's points of view. We
>both bring in items that are not (prominent) in the background of the
>other.

The reason for anger and nasty attacks is clear. The sin
was to showcase the fact that no Indus horse nor any chariots
for the Indian public. Also, the Indian Iron age data, (pointed
to the list by Dr. Farmer I think, and then Dr. Thompson gave
a reference book on the subject by Prof. Possehl)
brings down the date of Rigveda considerably. The violent
attacks are to make Indologists and Scholars from other
fields *not* to write and collaborate.

In Tamil, we have an ancient proverb: "it's always easy
to wake up a man *really* asleep. But, hard to wake up
some one who is acting as tho' he's in deep sleep".

>This is generally *not* understood by the more 'patriotic' discussants.
>They insist on an either/ or, which -- to me -- looks rather 'Semetic'
>(sic! their favorite term): where is India's famous 'tolerance', or let us
>put it this way: her receptiveness for multiple explanations?

"Aryans entered into India" - the Indologists' findings
are not acceptable to them, because of the efforts
to impose their languages and a host of other things that
put them on top on the minority language speakers in India.
Minority religions, Weak sections of India without
money, press, or education, groups that has least
defence are at risk.

The Hindutva folks insist that they have read Sanskrit
in the Indus seals, even tho' most use only Griffith's
translation of the Veda! It's sad that Vedicists like
Thompson have been stopped from writing in the list.

>navavarSa-zubhakaamanaa  & ditto, for  Passover  &  Easter!

puttANDu nalvAzttukkaL!

                       *******

>I have one question here: is it really not possible that the processes in
>question here happened later than the second millennium, or about at the
>end of it?
>Lukas Werth

Good possibility. See the archives about the age of iron
in India. It gets into religious manual like RV after some time
in general use. Even Dr. Witzel who used to write RV
in the final form in 1200 BCE here for years, changed it
to something like 900 BCE.

>?From a 1995 post, Dr. G. Hart wrote:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9603&L=indology&P=R3351

Dr. Houben wrote in 1998:
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R8332


   ----------------------------------------------------------------
  Antiquity, Sept 1995 v69 n264 p554(12)
  Horse, wagon & chariot: Indo-European
  languages and archaeology. David W. Anthony.

   The dynamics of Indo-European expansion

   The expansion of the Indo-European languages must have
   involved many episodes of language shift over a long
   period of time. There is no single explanation for
   these many episodes; they occurred in different
   places, at different times, for many different
   reasons. Even the initial expansion seems to have been
   facilitated by different processes to the east and to
   the west of the PIE core area.

   Language shift has been modelled by archaeologists in
   two ways: demographic expansion and elite dominance.
   In the first, a group with a more intensive economy
   and a denser population replaces or absorbs a group
   with a less intensive economy, and language shift
   occurs as an epiphenomenon of a wave-like demographic
   expansion (Renfrew 1994; Bellwood 1989). In the
   second, a powerful elite imposes its language on a
   client or subject population. While both processes can
   be important, language shift is more complex than
   these models imply. Language shift can be understood
   best as a social strategy through which individuals
   and groups compete for positions of prestige, power,
   and domestic security (Anthony in press). What is
   important, then, is not just dominance, but vertical
   social mobility and a linkage between language and
   access to positions of prestige and power (Mallory 1992).
   The expansion of the Indo-European languages eastward
   into the steppes was linked to innovations in
   transport. The resultant development of deep-steppe
   pastoralism combined with river-valley agriculture
   made it possible for a substantial population
   predictably and productively to exploit the grasslands
   that occupy the center of the Eurasian landmass. The
   conquest of the grasslands permanently changed the
   dynamics of historical development across the Eurasian
   continent by establishing a bridge, however tenuous,
   between the previously isolated societies of China,
   Iran, the Near East and Europe. In a sense, the
   eastward expansion of the pastoral-agricultural
   economy might be analogous to the 'demographic wave'
   that Renfrew and others have applied to the
   Indo-European expansion in Europe. However, the
   cultural-archaeological context shows that the steppes
   were already populated; the process by which this
   resident population became IE-speakers was cultural,
   not just demographic.

   A relatively small immigrant elite population can
   encourage widespread language shift among numerically
   dominant indigenes in a non-state or pre-state context
   if the elite employs a specific combination of
   encouragements and punishments. Ethnohistorical cases
   in Africa (Kopytoff 1987; Atkinson 1989) and the
   Philippines (Bentley 1981) demonstrate that small
   elite groups have successfully imposed their languages
   in non-state situations where they:

   * imported a powerful and attractive new religion or
   ideology (as the Sintashta-Petrovka culture seems to
   have done);

   * controlled sufficient wealth to offer gifts and
   loans on a lavish scale (documented in the
   metallurgical wealth of Sintashta-Petrovka);

   * controlled sufficient military muscle to punish
   those who resisted (chariotry might have increased the
   power of the Sintashta-Petrovka people);

   * occupied strategic positions on critical trade
   routes (Sintashta controls access to the Orenburg
   gateway between Europe and the steppes);

   * and actively pursued marriages and alliances with
   the more powerful members of indigenous groups,
   offering them enhanced prestige and vertical social
   mobility in the new order.

   Simply defeating and dominating the indigenes is
   insufficient, as the Norman conquest of England and
   the Celtic conquest of Galatia demonstrate. Language
   shift occurs when it confers strategic advantages on
   those who learn the new language. An elite must be not
   just dominant, but open to assimilation and alliance,
   and its language must be a key to integration within
   an attractive socio-political system, as it was for
   the Roman state at one end of the political spectrum
   and for Baluchi nomads (Barth 1981) at the other.
   The diffusion of the IE languages eastward into the
   steppes should be understood as a social process, not
   as an epiphenomenon of a demographic shift. The
   diffusion westward into Europe was fundamentally
   different in ecological, cultural and economic terms.
   It also probably began much earlier. Intrusive kurgan
   cemeteries in the lower Danube valley (Panaiotov 1989)
   and eastern Hungary (Ecsedy 1979; Sherratt 1983)
   probably testify to a sustained Yamna incursion at
   about 2900-2700 BC (Anthony 1990). Yet the small-group
   social dynamics responsible for language shift might
   have been very similar in Europe and the steppes. In a
   European context in which wagons and animal traction
   were becoming increasingly important in the domestic
   economy (Bogucki 1993), the pastorally-oriented
   societies of the western steppes might have been seen
   not as culturally backward 'Huns', but rather as
   enviably rich and worthy of emulation. Wheeled
   vehicles may have significantly altered the
   organization of agricultural labour in eastern Europe,
   since one person with a wagon and oxen could transport
   crops from field to farm that would earlier have
   required the co-operative labour of a group (Bankoff &
   Greenfield 1984: 17; Bogucki 1993). Wagons made
   systematic manuring possible, opening areas with less
   productive soils to agricultural exploitation. Wagons
   required draft oxen, enhancing the overall importance
   of cattle-raising, while horseback riding made cattle
   stealing easier, encouraging inter-community raiding
   and warfare. Wagons may have encouraged the evolution
   of increasingly dispersed and individualizing social
   communities (as automobiles have done in this
   century). Shifts in values may have been encouraged by
   changes in eastern European community organization and
   economy that were themselves caused partially by the
   adoption of wheeled vehicles and horseback riding. All
   of these changes might have set the stage for the
   adoption of new languages just at the time that the
   Yamna incursion into the grassy plains of the lower
   Danube valley and eastern Hungary began.

   At the root of both expansions lie the speakers of
   PIE, whose kinship systems, religious concepts, and
   social organization can be understood through their
   own reconstructed vocabulary - an unprecedented
   opportunity for anthropological archaeologists, if we
   can agree on how it should be exploited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,
V. Iyer

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Sat Apr 14 13:21:22 2001
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 14:21:22 +0100
Subject: Phonemes
Message-ID: <161227069240.23782.18419310848278643504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

REF:My message about NAgarI script dated March 31. It was pointed out that
the message shows no awareness of what a phoneme is, or of distinctive
segmentation.One cannot write everything in the short message written
comparing Roman (R-) and NAgarI (N-)scripts. Here is more about awareness-
Phonology is the study of sound system of language:the rules that govern
pronunciation and distribution of sounds for a chosen language.Phonetics
is the analysis of actual speech sounds related to production and
articulation of sounds. Phonemics is the analysis of the relationships
among phonetic sounds.A phoneme is a family of sounds, which functions in a
language to signal a difference in meaning.The fact that 'pat' and 'bat'
differ in meaning, demonstrates that /p/ and /b/ are phonemes in English.A
phoneme, by itself, is meaningless. It cannot be described as sound either,
for a phoneme can be actualized as one of several different sounds.These
variants of the phoneme are called allophones, and the sound themselves
phones.Thus a phoneme is a family of different phones which can be
interchanged without affecting our recognition of meaning.Phonemic
classification is useful because it recognizes only the significant
differences among phones.Words are physically one continuous motion but are
psychologically a series of discrete units called segments.A single segment
is sometimes represented by a variety of spellings characteristic of the
language under discussion.A phonemic alphabet is justified because in that
system one symbol uniquely represents one segment. Segments are composed of
smaller units called distinctive features. The vowels and consonants follow
one another in speech and are called segmental phonemes. Supra-segmental
phonemes make use of stress and pitch. The English word 'sit'consists of 3
phonemes. The word 'sought' also consists of 3 phonemes. So phoneme is not
necessarily a single letter in English. The 'th'in 'thigh'is a different
phoneme from 'th' in 'thy'.
 These definitions do not contradict my understanding of N script(syllabic)
versus R script(alphabetic).It is said that N writing system is
phonemically over-precise and phonetically imprecise. The ancient Indian
grammarians were aware of this fact and hence they never confused the
alphabet with the phonology.My original question was about the reasons of
choosing the path by the ancient Indians of syllabic writing in N instead
that of alphabetic linear writing like R.Some say Brahmi was alphabetic and
some say it was syllabic, I do not know. Again N script of Sanskrit is not
syllabic in the strict sense that it represents syllables by means of
unitary syllabic signs.It is syllabic in the quite different sense that it
represents syllables by means of non-unitary signs.These non-unitary signs
are derived from graphemes representing phonemes by attaching to them
diacritical markings of different spatial orientations.The markings are
simple and consistent in nature and easier to master by associative memory
than to remember the unrelated members of the one hundred percent syllabic
system.Since the N syllabes are derived by rules of combination and
pronunciation, there is no limit on their number.Theoretically all possible
combinations of vowels and consonants are allowed. The N graphemes are not
letters in the sense of English that  either singly or in combination
represent phonemes.They singly and uniquely represent phonemes without
implying the modern phonemic theory.I am ready to give credit of
development of this unique N script to the elephant riders
(labeled "Dravidians")from the east of Khyber pass rather than the horse
riders(labeled "Aryans")from the west of Khyber pass until somebody
produces a contrary evidence. Thanks.




From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU  Sat Apr 14 20:25:42 2001
From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 16:25:42 -0400
Subject: Response to S Bhatta <attahb@REDIFFMAIL.COM>
Message-ID: <161227069246.23782.14654717128175124186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For what it's worth, I'd like to add that I see no reason whatsoever
why Steve should have to defend the value of his contribution as a
comparativist against the sort of know-nothing criticisms that have
been levelled here.

I too would like these attacks to desist.

-- Rohan.



>The Indology Archives show that since 7 April 2001 four posts
>have been directed against me from the previously unknown name
>and address S Bhatta <attahb at REDIFFMAIL.COM>.
>
>These are the ONLY posts ever sent to the Indology List from this
>name or address. I have no idea who S Bhatta is/are, but it is
>clear that every post made from this address has contained an
>attack on me.
>
>It is time for these attacks to desist.
>
>S. Bhatta's most recent complaint is that I don't have the right,
>again since I'm a comparativist and not Sanskrit specialist, to
>ask Panini experts a question about northwest grammarians in the
>early Achaemenid era. My underlying question was pertinent to
>ongoing studies of canonization processes throughout Eurasia, and
>has nothing really to do with Sanskrit -- although the answer to
>my question may have some implications for Vedicists.
>
>My question received detailed and helpful responses both on and
>off List from prominent Vedic and Panini experts. I have my
>doubts that S Bhatta's email box frequently contains such
>messages.
>
>Like all other sciences, the historical sciences are or should be
>collaborative endeavors. Major advances, especially in premodern
>Eurasian studies, demand the work of linguists, philologists,
>archaeologists, anthropologists, population biologists,
>comparative historians, and regional historians all working
>together.
>
>Collaborative efforts of this nature have a major theoretical as
>well as empirical component; that theoretical component is
>promoted by breadth of knowledge in many areas no less than
>expertise in single fields. Fresh ideas in collaborations
>frequently come from researchers in any field involved in the
>collaboration, but everyone involved knows that before being
>accepted those ideas must be tested *rigorously* by specialists
>in all the involved fields.
>
>So the key term that S Bhatta needs to think here about is
>'collaboration.' I have my own linguistic talents and skills and
>I am in nearly daily contact with ssome of the best Sanskritists
>in the world (also other languages). I seriously doubt that S
>Bhatta can match the research resources of both linguistic and
>historical nature available to me.
>
>In any event, I've had enough of S Bhatta, and I *again*
>challenge him/her/them to discuss some substantial issue with me
>-- or to kindly shut up. My last such challenge was ignored.
>
>Lots of research energy is being wasted. Or is wasting my time,
>making it unpleasant for me to post, as I suspect, *precisely*
>what S Bhatto has/have in mind?
>
>S. Farmer




From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET  Sat Apr 14 15:50:09 2001
From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 16:50:09 +0100
Subject: Work by Oberlies
Message-ID: <161227069255.23782.15845593915541233480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone provide a reference for a recent work by Thomas Oberlies on the
dating of the S'vetAs'vatara UpaniSad?

Thanks--

Dr Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK




From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Sat Apr 14 17:36:00 2001
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 01 18:36:00 +0100
Subject: re. Soap
Message-ID: <161227069245.23782.15770885099885089538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>
>>Many tribes call themselves after their own words for 'man, human,
people'.
>>
>>Toda has nothing to do with deutsch/*teuta, etc.; see Burrow-Emeneau, DEDR
>>3504.
>>An IE tribe migrating, sorry invading, to Toda-land?
>>(pace Parpola).
>
>The indigenous name for Toda is Ahl which is cognate with 'person' in
>Dravidian (specially Tamil)
>
>"Among the five tribal groups of the Nilgiri massif, the 1200 Toda (known
>by themselves as the Ahl)"
>
> http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/cultural/oldworld/middle_east/toda.html
>
>Raveen

Further Toda is an anglicized version of Thothava(r) which according to
Pope is derived from Ta. Thozhuva(r) (Cattle owner?). Hence the
relationship betwen Toda and Teuda is farfetched indeed.

Raveen




From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Sat Apr 14 23:38:21 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 00:38:21 +0100
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069248.23782.4763817733912105353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:43:57 -0400, Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:

>I think in our present discussion it is important to stress that, in the
>case of the Indo-Aryans, we do not simply have language take over  (for a
>more or less peaceful one covering a very large territory, note Suahili:
>from Zanzibar to E. Congo., from Kenya to N. Mozambique..)
>but we also have the take-over by local people of the *whole set* of
>spiritual culture (complicated IE/ IIr poetics!, ritual, religion, etc. --
>something that did, by and large,  not happen in the Suahili case), and
>also the take-over of some material culture (complicated chariot building,
>import of horses, dress, hair style, but also rather primitive ritual
>implements & pottery, etc.). We need a model that covere all such changes.
>
>C. Ehret's "elite kit" and a post-Indus, opportunistic shift to more
>pastoralism will work best here.  No big wave of "invaders" is necessary
>then, just some Afghani tribesmen who chose to stay in their winter
>quarters in the Indus,  instead of going back to the Afghani highlands (as
>they  did in Avestan times and as they still do.)
>
>Such a group could  set off a wave of change, with adaptation (and further
>change!) of the dominant elite kit, all across the Panjab and beyond...
>(See forthcoming EJVS 7-3).
>

For these "elite kits" to work, the "natives" should be able to look up to the
newcomers as elite. The "natives", in this case,  cannot but be remnants of the
urban IVC. The present area of IVC is at present estimated to include large larts
of North-west and North India. Why should these remnants or inheritors of IVC
look up to some wandering tribesmen as elite?

If one is proposing a scenario of "revolution from the top" , certain pre-
conditions be met
1. Centralised spiritual and political structure of the "natives"
2.The new elite should consider themselves part of or representatives of some
larger entity in cultural terms so that they maintain sufficient distance from
the natives

Only then the "elite kits", either material or cultural can be disseminated with
any degree of efficacy.

In the case of Cyrus conquest of Babylon or the Spanish conquest of Aztecs , it
was a pyramidal structure and easy for the new rulers to impose their language,
religion and culture on the "natives". Babylonian culture merged into
Achameanids and the Spanish culture "swallowed" Aztecs.

In the propsed scenario of aryan spread over India, it is not clear why should a
civilized descendents of IVC look up to some wandering tribesmen as elite who
ought to be emulated. Even if such had been the case it would have been a local
phenomenon since we don't have definite conception of the "native" culture of
North India as a centralised one wherein cultural spreads can be across the
board.

About the "natives" being overawed with chariots and arrows, in all other parts
of the world different "natives" were first shocked and awed by an intrusive
military technology, but usually have quickly recovered to adapt the same
technology for their own use. Romans were overawed by Hannibal's elephants in the
beginning, but recovered their poise soon. Even ancient Greeks are believed to
have been overawed by horsemen (Minatour legend), The American Indians also
adopted and adpated to the new technologies of horse and rifle brought in by
Europeans. The defeat of American Indians cannot be blamed on lack of
technological backwardness. The point I am making is that aryans could not have
militarily defeated "natives" and overawed the presumably civilized "natives"
over a long period of time and over a vast space becuase the same technologies
could have been adopted by the natives after the initial shock.




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Sun Apr 15 01:15:53 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 03:15:53 +0200
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069250.23782.3958726874950987342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just on the side--don't confuse the Minotaur myths with the
centaurs... The Minotaur myths seem to carry a form of
reflection of the cultural/political relationship between
the main carriers of the non-IE Minoan culture vis-?-vis the
partly IE pre-Mycenaean/Mycenaean culture(s) that were
fringe members of the Minoan ambitus, but later conquered
the Minoan sphere, leading to Mycenaean culture proper.
The saga of Theseus sailing to Crete to kill the Minotaur
in order to stop the yearly slaughter of ritual human victims
from Athens seems to carry a remembrence of the previous
subservience to Crete, and of the successful struggle to
shake it off.
The centaurs, like so many other features of Greek culture,
are, in my view, a remembrance of the arrival of the
horse people in Greece. If one wants to identify the arriving
horse people with Indo-Europeans, the centaur myths could
be a reaction to them on the part of the non-IE culture that
was confronted by them. It would have made its way into
what would become Greek mythology just like so many
other vestiges of non-IE Minoan culture, such as the animal
goddess, potnia theron, and a large section of the classical
Greek pantheon and the related sagas.
I have long felt that Greece and India seem to have a lot
in common in the way IE and non-IE cultures created something
third. The fact that Greek is an IE language with a relatively
small proportion of linguistic carry-overs from the
Minoan culture (the word for bath tub for example...) cannot
hide the fact that an enormous part of the religious aspects
of the post-Minoan Greek cultures are definitely non-IE
in origin, even when they carry IE names, like potnia theron.
Something new came into being, from two very
different cultures. Isn't this very similar to what seems
to have happened further east after the arrival of Indo-Europeans
in the Mitanni areas and then in India proper.
Already very early brahmanical culture seems to contain very
substantial non-IE components, and so do modern Indian forms of
religion, including the brahminical aspects--to an extraordinary
extent.
The fact that Vedic is nevertheless very much an IE language with
not too many non-IE intrusions yet is quite parallel to the Greek
situation after the arrival of Indo-Europeans there.
For me, the current verbal warfare around Aryan invasions etc.
seems an anachronistic absurdity--Indian culture contains irrevocably
IE and non-IE components, having created already thousands of years
ago something new, genuinely Indian from this coming-together.
Imagine some Greek pseudo-scholars writing invectives against
the HIT (Herakleidai Invasion Theory)... Hilarious!
We should not respond to such anachronisms with too much
attention other than maybe asking the people who keep coming
back with these strange sentiments to form their own list --
or political party...

On a personal note, I would like to add that this list could
do with a bit more "sine ira et studio". There have been
very unnecessary attacks on the persons of Steve Farmer and
Michael Witzel which where not just misguided, but also
totally unworthy of a scholarly list. They really threaten
the academic atmosphere which most of us enjoy. Maybe
we should ask Dominik to bring in some additional
discipline, or some of us, including myself, might prefer
to go off this list.
This list is for asking questions, finding answers together, and
for announcing scholarly news.
If you cannot contribute to any of these, or if you are writing
with personal anger or excitement, you should consider
quitting this list.

Sorry this is an outrageously long posting. I'll impose a few
days of silence upon myself...

Yours,
sine ira et studio,
Gunthard


Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:43:57 -0400, Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
>
> >I think in our present discussion it is important to stress that, in the
> >case of the Indo-Aryans, we do not simply have language take over  (for a
> >more or less peaceful one covering a very large territory, note Suahili:
> >from Zanzibar to E. Congo., from Kenya to N. Mozambique..)
> >but we also have the take-over by local people of the *whole set* of
> >spiritual culture (complicated IE/ IIr poetics!, ritual, religion, etc. --
> >something that did, by and large,  not happen in the Suahili case), and
> >also the take-over of some material culture (complicated chariot building,
> >import of horses, dress, hair style, but also rather primitive ritual
> >implements & pottery, etc.). We need a model that covere all such changes.
> >
> >C. Ehret's "elite kit" and a post-Indus, opportunistic shift to more
> >pastoralism will work best here.  No big wave of "invaders" is necessary
> >then, just some Afghani tribesmen who chose to stay in their winter
> >quarters in the Indus,  instead of going back to the Afghani highlands (as
> >they  did in Avestan times and as they still do.)
> >
> >Such a group could  set off a wave of change, with adaptation (and further
> >change!) of the dominant elite kit, all across the Panjab and beyond...
> >(See forthcoming EJVS 7-3).
> >
>
> For these "elite kits" to work, the "natives" should be able to look up to the
> newcomers as elite. The "natives", in this case,  cannot but be remnants of the
> urban IVC. The present area of IVC is at present estimated to include large larts
> of North-west and North India. Why should these remnants or inheritors of IVC
> look up to some wandering tribesmen as elite?
>
> If one is proposing a scenario of "revolution from the top" , certain pre-
> conditions be met
> 1. Centralised spiritual and political structure of the "natives"
> 2.The new elite should consider themselves part of or representatives of some
> larger entity in cultural terms so that they maintain sufficient distance from
> the natives
>
> Only then the "elite kits", either material or cultural can be disseminated with
> any degree of efficacy.
>
> In the case of Cyrus conquest of Babylon or the Spanish conquest of Aztecs , it
> was a pyramidal structure and easy for the new rulers to impose their language,
> religion and culture on the "natives". Babylonian culture merged into
> Achameanids and the Spanish culture "swallowed" Aztecs.
>
> In the propsed scenario of aryan spread over India, it is not clear why should a
> civilized descendents of IVC look up to some wandering tribesmen as elite who
> ought to be emulated. Even if such had been the case it would have been a local
> phenomenon since we don't have definite conception of the "native" culture of
> North India as a centralised one wherein cultural spreads can be across the
> board.
>
> About the "natives" being overawed with chariots and arrows, in all other parts
> of the world different "natives" were first shocked and awed by an intrusive
> military technology, but usually have quickly recovered to adapt the same
> technology for their own use. Romans were overawed by Hannibal's elephants in the
> beginning, but recovered their poise soon. Even ancient Greeks are believed to
> have been overawed by horsemen (Minatour legend), The American Indians also
> adopted and adpated to the new technologies of horse and rifle brought in by
> Europeans. The defeat of American Indians cannot be blamed on lack of
> technological backwardness. The point I am making is that aryans could not have
> militarily defeated "natives" and overawed the presumably civilized "natives"
> over a long period of time and over a vast space becuase the same technologies
> could have been adopted by the natives after the initial shock.




From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 04:14:07 2001
From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 04:14:07 +0000
Subject: Saffronising Indian History
Message-ID: <161227069252.23782.2775587006512863026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sun Apr 15 17:42:20 2001
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 10:42:20 -0700
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069273.23782.5803148432498306332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I hate to continue on this vein, but I feel it is necessary to
add one more message to this thread.

The attacks on me and Michael Witzel aren't only on this List,
nor are they attacks by village idiots. We are regular targets as
well in the RSS paper, the Organizer, as well as in many other
India-centered Lists. The attacks are coordinated by professional
Hindutva propagandists, including above all (besides N.S.
Rajaram), Ashok Chowgule of Hindu Vivek Kendra, a far-right group
with ties to Rajaram, Talageri, Elst, the RSS, etc. Ashok
Chowgule also regularly sends me harassing emails -- the most
recent arriving this morning. After awhile, all this starts to
take its emotional toll...

The most recent RSS attack on us was posted in an article a day
or so ago by Vishal Agarwal (well known to many on this List) in
the IndianCivilization group. I've had to contact a lawyer in the
past because of Agarwal's slanderous remarks, which have forced
him to apologize online. I may unfortunately have to pursue that
course again.

The RSS article (dated April 1) attacks Michael Witzel, me, and
Asko Parpola. I am identified (old story) as

  a computer programmer who live (sic) in California. At
  various times he has claimed to be a Sinologist, a
  comparative historian, a geneticist, a historian of science
  and just in time for the Frontline article it seems that
  he became an Indologist after only two months.

For the full article, see
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0401/3.html, which I now notice
*also* comes from the Hindu Vivek Kendra website!! There is much
unintended humor in the article, whose style and contents (no
matter whose name is on the byline) clearly reflect the work of
N.S. Rajaram himself (note the bit about horses with 34 ribs, an
old Rajaram line). It also speaks of the "near-absence of horse
seals" in the IVC (read: none!!) -- a claim which could only come
from Rajaram.

All these claims about me (I'm a "computer programmer," etc.)
were first made by Rajaram to the Indian press after Michael and
I published "Horseplay in Harappa" and a followup article, "New
Evidence on the 'Piltdown Horse' Hoax" in Frontline last fall.
Those articles clearly destroyed Rajaram's credibility, and he
and the Hindutva crowd have done everything they can to go after
us personally since. Rajaram knew then and knows now that his
claims about me are false, since we have corresponded about them
more than once. Parpola is attacked in the article for the same
reason, since he also contributed a followup article to
"Horseplay." Romila Thapar has, predictably, been attacked as
well, since the first article that Michael and I wrote was
followed by her backup commentary. For all the original articles,
if anyone out there hasn't seen them, with other contributions by
Iravatham Mahadevan & Richard Meadow, see
http://www.safarmer.com/frontline. Supposedly the collected
articles will soon come out in a book in Hindi translation.

It is very unpleasant to have to defend your scholarly
credentials repeatedly against such attacks when the other side
can claim no historical credentials whatsoever. S. Talageri, who
uses the Hindu Vivek Kendra facilities, reportedly is a bank
worker; Rajaram taught industrial design in the U.S. before he
returned to India; Frawley hawks Vedic Astrology readings from
his Website.

My academic background, in brief, hopefully one last time: I have
been an academic all my life; I have a Ph.D. from Stanford
University in cultural history; I have spent a total of 18 years
teaching the history of science, premodern Western history, and
comparative history in two U.S. universities and one college, and
probably will return to teaching in the next year (now I'm
researching fulltime); I'm lecturing on my work in premodern
history this summer in Germany, at Herzog August Bibliothek; I'm
a former Harvard University research fellow and past Research
Fellow for the National Endowment for the Humanities; I've also
held many other research grants and fellowships; I've never
claimed to be a Sinologist or geneticist, but I do collaborate
with a Sinologist, John B. Henderson, with whom I have
collaborated for many years. In the past two years I've published
a long academic book on premodern Western thought and several
academic articles, including a collaborative piece in French. I'm
currently working on other articles and a book on the interaction
of neurobiology and literate traditions. My interests in Indology
primarily revolve around chronological problems, which are
closely linked to the model discussed in that book. If Indian
chronologies were in sync with Chinese and Western chronologies I
probably would never appear on this List.

I've never  worked as a computer programmer or written a single
line of commercial code. My only work with computers is academic,
involving simulations of the ways in which premodern textual
traditions cross-culturally became layered over time. My work
here is with several collaborators including a NASA computer
modelist (P. Robinson), my Sinologist collaborator, and more
recently the mathematician Ralph Abraham (one of the founders of
chaos theory; on Ralph see James Gleick's classic _Chaos: Making
a New Science_ [1987]). All our collaborations are of an academic
and not commercial nature.

My deep apologies for discussing my background on the List
another time: It is about the last thing that I want to do. The
only "qualifications" that I recognize in research are a high
regard for evidence. But Big Lies told repeatedly, and not
corrected, can inflict deep professional damage, and I feel that
I have to keep the record straight.

I would prefer that this thread end here and that we go on to
other things. But I also want people to know -- if they don't
already -- that these people are not just casual crackpots. They
have a big political agenda in mind and full-time people working
on their slanderous campaign.

S. Farmer




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Sun Apr 15 18:12:36 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 11:12:36 -0700
Subject: On S. Farmer . . .
Message-ID: <161227069279.23782.13166596920640750466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Farmer,

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I warned you when you began that your intemperate remarks would bring a lot
more trouble than you might be ready for.  Instead, you have have persisted
in inflammatory statements, and have drawn the not-unsurprising fire of your
opponents.  Now you cry about it.

A wise man, in Indian culture, keeps his cool and does not become angry.
Every intemperate remark you make cements your image as a person of little
wisdom and much eagerness to inflame.  I fail to see any large difference
between you and your critics.  While your goals are be distinct, your
methods are equally insulting and inflammatory on subjects that mean just as
much to those you insult.  You have made yourself an easy target, and
tarnished the reputation of scholarly research in the eyes of far too many
Indians.  Up to this point, you have done as much harm as good, and now have
brought this list down with you.

Why don't you take Prof. Mueller's advice, if not mine, and in future write
"sine ira et studio"?  But then people might forget you . . . ?

David




----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Farmer" <saf at safarmer.com>

> I hate to continue on this vein, but I feel it is necessary to
> add one more message to this thread.
>
> The attacks on me . . . . We are regular targets . . . . The
>  attacks are coordinated . . . .  . After awhile, all this starts to
> take its emotional toll...
> . . .
> I would prefer that this thread end here and that we go on to
> other things. But I also want people to know -- if they don't
> already -- that these people are not just casual crackpots. They
> have a big political agenda in mind and full-time people working
> on their slanderous campaign.
>
> S. Farmer
>
>
>




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Sun Apr 15 18:13:00 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 11:13:00 -0700
Subject: Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069281.23782.9578710620500966580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think this is a mistake, an admission of defeat by the yowling yahoos who
try to drown out competing voices with their screams and insults.

You had a better idea the first time, i.e., to cancel anyone's membership
who uses insulting language.  But you obviously do not have the time to keep
up with the volume.  How about adding two or three more moderators with
authority to squelch insults and noise, instead of setting up a private,
off-limits list (which is what everyone will assume you are doing)?  And set
up a "lurker" category for people to listen, but not write.

Free speech should not be allowed to be defeated by the saffron- or
white-shirted noisemakers.  Cure the problem, don't stop your speech.

David


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wujastyk"

> I have requested the owners of the INDOLOGY list at the University
> of Liverpool to close the list as soon as possible.




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sun Apr 15 19:36:20 2001
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 12:36:20 -0700
Subject: S. Farmer, Indology and overreacting
In-Reply-To: <F58T4aJ6pkNzPZrIkyP00006de4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227069295.23782.2482040416965636134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following was written yesterday, before Dominik's post about closing
down INDOLOGY. The last sentence seems to have acquired more meaning.

_____________________

At 07:50 AM 04/14/2001 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote:

>The reason why Rajaram, Talageri get accepted is because it is refreshing to
>see something different.

In some cases, this might be true. But there is also a clear propagandistic
effort not only to promote these views but also to discredit Indologists
and the whole of Indology as a discipline. This effort, as we all know,
follows a nationalistic agenda.

> They will also become obsolete if they are wrong

Yes, eventually, but if Witzel and Farmer (along with their gaNas of
cohorts) had not taken a stand and countered many of their claims, their
ideas would continue to spread unchallenged. The more that false/unfounded
ideas spread, the longer it takes later on to correct the mistakes,
especially if these ideas have been actively proclaimed to the four winds
instead of being confined to scholarly publications. People like Kak make a
point of stating that their theories have not been challenged by scholars,
so simply ignoring such ideas and not offering counter arguments would only
seem to confirm their claims to scholarly authority.

>No one had promoted their findings in this list except via URLs,

Not quite so. For a very long time now, INDOLOGY has been periodically
bombarded with very belligerent, aggressive attacks on "Western"
Indologists and Indian "secularists." Some times genuine questions were
asked -and replied to- and other times ideas have been fruitfully
exchanged, but too often it has become an excuse for accusing contemporary
Indology of being some sort of neo-colonialist, Christian, imperialist
conspiracy against Hinduism (following Rajaram's lead). As pointed out by
S. Farmer in his reply to one S. Bhatta, one often wonders who some of the
list members are, and what their intentions are. Some of this would be
solved if we all knew who we are talking to. In other words, if those who
post to the list give some information about themselves or their
institutional affiliations, instead of an unknown name and a hotmail or
another similarly anonymous account.

>but there was over reaction from all sides.

Yes, there has been over reaction on all sides, but too often too much time
is spent replying to uninformed and/or ill-intentioned posts.
Also, most of this has been explained before on the list, but we
periodically have new list members who start all over again with
accusations and insinuations. That's why many get tired and stop posting,
or leave the list. But maybe that's precisely the intention of some of the
aggressors.

Best wishes,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Sun Apr 15 12:00:23 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 13:00:23 +0100
Subject: On S. Farmer, also on invasion
Message-ID: <161227069257.23782.1668826271585377634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:15:53 +0200, Gunthard Mueller <gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM> wrote:

>Just on the side--don't confuse the Minotaur myths with the
>centaurs...

Thanks for the correction. Centaurs was what I had in mind




From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 21:31:47 2001
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 14:31:47 -0700
Subject: Suggestion
Message-ID: <161227069299.23782.17989698041766797974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Narayan Joshi wrote:
<<<
This suggestion might be too late to implement.Instead of closing the
list, why not hold discussion on the list in the next week or so on
the methods to decrease signal to noise ratio. [...]
>>>

Very nice suggestion. No insults, quotes refering to
Indological jls.,/books, (and like Dr. Kochhar's suggestion)
not naming members of the list should curtail violent attacks.

Otherwise, it's like caving in to the attackers' aim:
That is to shut down this scholarly forum.

Regards,
Prasad

PS: This may be a typo. Do you mean to say:
"methods to *increase* signal to noise ratio"
We want higher signals.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 13:57:21 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 14:57:21 +0100
Subject: Vedic Brahmin practices in ancient South India
Message-ID: <161227069259.23782.7216870895862052177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
             pITu il man2n2ar
             nOy pAl viLinta yAkkai tazIi
             kAtal maRantu avar tItu maruGku aRumAr
             aRam puri koLkai nAn2maRai mutalvar
             tiRam puri pacu pul parappin2ar kiTappi
             maRam kantu Aka nal amar vIznta
             nIL kazal maRavar celvuzi celka en2a
             vAL pOzntu aTakkal um uyntan2ar mAtO
             (puR.93.4-11)


     Kings without majesty, they evaded what would have been done
   had their deaths come naturally, of sickness, and their bodies
   taken to be laid out on ever green grass of the finest kind by
   Brahmins schooled in the Four Vedas and the principles of
   Righteousness, who would have then chanted, "Go to where the great
   warriors go! those who wear their splendid war anklets, those who
   have died in a good battle and kept faith in their manhood!" and
   forgetting any love they may have had for them, they would have
   then wounded the bodies with the sword so as to free them of sin
   and buried them.

                                                    - G. Hart (1999)
>>>

>>This song by auvaiyAr is interesting for the following
>>reasons. Brahmins act as funerary priests in a burial. Moreover,
>>the brahmins cut the body with the sword before burial.

Dr. V. J. Roebuck wrote:
>Also that the poet does not approve of the practice.

At least in the tamil original, there is no hint of anyone
not approving the practice. Instead, the society/family
felt that it was a shame not to have died a heroic death.
The phrase "kAtal maRantu" (="forgetting the love they
had for the king") is generally interpreted using
similar passages elsewhere.

This ancient ritual of cutting up the kings
wearing 'kazal' (war anklets), but dying in bed (due
to disease), and not in battle, have been mentioned
in literature elsewhere.

For example, in the Manimekalai epic, an incident.
Informing the queen of the death of Prince Utayakumaran,
an old lady tells her that it was customary to lay
the dead body on the darbha grass and cut it with
a sword reciting mantra. Further, the old lady advises
not to feel sorry and cry before the King because
the Prince didn't die a death fit for royalty.

  "Placing dead body on a spread of sacred grass,
they now cut asunder with a sword so that he may
reach heaven attained by kings who meet with heroic death."

  taruppaiyil kiTatti vALil pOzntu
  ceruppukaz man2n2ar celvazi celken2a

                            - maN. 23:13-14


Compare the puRam. 93 poem.

Regards,
V. Iyer



_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 16:43:48 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 17:43:48 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN]  Thoroughly fed up.
Message-ID: <161227069261.23782.16823878302601670831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm very disappointed indeed with the current round of insulting messages
and mud-slinging.

I'm probably going to close INDOLOGY for good at this point.  I've been
leaving it open since things seemed moderately okay after Christmas, but
the latest outbreak shows that INDOLOGY has grown too large to be able to
survive in its present form as an unmoderated group.  Since my
professional responsibilities (as an indologist!) do not permit me time to
moder the group, I shall probably shut it down shortly, and restart
something different in its place.

In the meantime, I shall now unsusbcribe anybody who says anything
insulting.  Without discussion, and without appeal.

There's a show currently on TV in the UK in which participants are one by
one unceremoniously slung out with the byline "You are the weakest link.
Good bye".  That's how it is here, now.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 16:50:20 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 17:50:20 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] "Ven. Tantra" a group
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0104141303230.24216-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227069263.23782.1186792202601120829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ven. Tantra has satisfied me that he is a single person posting under a
single identity.  He still equivocated somewhat about single identities,
but I believe he was trying to be philosophical, not literal.

I have asked him not to post to this list unless he has a specific
contribution on an indological subject he has studied seriously.  That
goes for everone, of course.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Sun Apr 15 17:00:17 2001
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 18:00:17 +0100
Subject: Deutsch and Germans
Message-ID: <161227069265.23782.14192909976137573025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It was refreshing to know that the adjective "deutsch" is derived from
Germanic "thiuda"(people).What is the etymology of the word "German" when
it was used by Romans to the tribes pouring into Europe from Asia in the
first and second centuries AD? The search of literature on this subject
offers contradictory information.Among the most significant of these early
tribes were Chatti(ancestors of the modern Hessians), Treveri,Tungri,and
Alammani.Now some relate Chatti to Hatti or Hittites.It appears that the
label German was originally applied by Romans to the tribe Tungri but
according to the record of Caesar all 4 tribes were called collectively
Germani by Romans.There was another tribe by the name Cheruschi led by the
warrior chieftain and German folk hero, Hermann(Latin:Arminius).It appears
to me that the name German might be related to the tribal name Cheruschi.I
may be wrong.Because of the ancient linguistic connection, we have Indo-
Germanic languages.This connection is used sometimes to show that Germanic
tribes originated in Central Asia and moved gradually towards the east
European location over the period of thousand years from 1000 BCE to 1
AD.On the other hand people of the German city Trier (Treves) boast that
their city was founded centuries before Rome by Trebeta(REF-BOOK-"In
deutschen Landen" by Josef K.L.Bihl), the son of famous Assyrian king Ninus
(Biblical Nimrod). Semiramis was married to Nimrod, the founder of Babylon
(Genesis-10:8-10). Genesis 10:11 says that Asshur and his descendants went
out of Babylon(or out of land of Shinar)and constructed Assyrian capital,
Nineveh. The ancient kings of Assyria called themselves "Khatti-sars".
Could it mean "Kings of Hatti or kings of Kaldu, the Khaldian people? Is
the word "Goth" related to the "Guti" people from the ancient MIddle-east
history? What is the true story?
Now Biblical scholars have tendency to relate somehow all human races to
the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth(sons of flood famous Noah around
4050 BCE). According to Biblical scholars, the children of Shem were
Elam,Asshur,Arphaxad,Lud and Aram.It is said that Asshur,the son of Shem
was the father of the white racial strain(fair skin and lighter hair). It
is said that Abraham the Hebrew (about 2000 BCE) was begotten of the line
of Arphaxad, the third son of Shem. Are then Germans and Israelites(Hebrews)
descended from the common ancestor? What is also the origin of the
word "Prussia?" Is it related to the word Assyrian? Could the earlier
version of Asshur be Vasshur changing into Prussia(Grimm's rule)? At the
end of my inquiry I would like add a cautionary note.Efforts by some Indian
authors of connecting Assyrians to the Asuras of the ancient Indian books
based only on phonetic similitude were wrong.Connecting the ancient Germans
to Aryans was also wrong because it was attested several times that the
word "Aryan" makes sense if any only in the context of the ancient Iranian
and Indian people.Turkish and Mongolian tribes from the Central Asia were
not Aryans either.Irish were not Aryans either.Thanks.




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 22:25:37 2001
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 18:25:37 -0400
Subject: Closing of INDOLOGY list
Message-ID: <161227069303.23782.3755426374985849696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Dominik in his posting about closing the list talks about how the list gave
access to the worlds best scholars in Indology.  Perhaps that is the most
remarkable achievement of the list in making Indological Scholarship known
and available to a wider public. That was certainly my experience when by
accident I came across the list on the internet several years ago.  I have
often been touched by the time and care that the ziSTas on the list give in
sharing their knowledge.   Perhaps that is whats most offensive in the
mudslinging, i.e. those against whom the mud is slung. No Professor or
researcher or Phd student ever got tenure, recognition or a single penny by
responding to an internet query, yet that is what they do again and again
with knowledge and care and skill.  There is a sanskrit word for this - seva
- service given without any self-serving motive .  My heartfelt thanks to
Drs. Wujastyk, Deshpande, Vassilkov, Lopez, Witzel, Rao, Brockington, Smith,
  Kochhar, Lehmann, Novetz, Knobl, Baumann, Torella, Dyczkowski,
Mayer-Koneg, Zydenbos and Thompson (and many many more) for generously
sharing their knowledge.

I for one think it will be a great loss if the list closes down and I hope
that does not occur.



Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 17:29:09 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 18:29:09 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] closing of the list
Message-ID: <161227069269.23782.14124720097872117405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

When I started INDOLOGY a decade ago, I had in mind a list for fifty or so
of my professional colleagues.

Over the years, INDOLOGY has become something else entirely, and
membership now stands at about 650.

This is very flattering, in a certain sense, and it has been an
interesting experience for me personally, since it has brought a certain
fame and/or notoriety.  Scholars I've never met often know me from the
list, and kindly greet me with warmth and recognition because of it.
Usually there is a certain amout of wry commiseration too, since everyone
knows that with its great success, INDOLOGY has also become unruly, and
the signal-to-noise ration has deteriorated badly.

I have always rather like the fact that INDOLOGY was an open, public
forum.  I work for a library which is very scholarly, but is also open to
the public, and I value that highly.  Anybody can wander in off the
pavement and order up a Sanskrit manuscript in the reading room.  There's
something great about that.  And the same with INDOLOGY: the fact that
complete newcomers, who have never read anything from the scholarly
literature of classical Indian studies, can join in a discussion with the
top professors from all over the world is truly remarkable.  In fact, I
think it is more than remarkable.  I think it is an example of a certain
democratization and flattening of heirarchies which the internet can cause
to happen.  In many cases this is a good thing.  But perhaps not in all
cases.

There are still significant gains to be made from human heirarchies in
certain situations, not least in the situation of student and teacher.
Today, with the growth of tertiary education, it is not unusual for the
teacher to be younger than the pupil, but the "gradient of knowledge" is
what counts in the situation, and the fact that an epistemological
heirarchy exists is important and valuable.  That someone says "I am a
student, and I will approach my teacher with a desire to learn" and
someone else says "I am a teacher, and I will do my best to enable this
student to learn what they want to learn" creates a heirarchical situation
in which learning can happen.  (Next day, the teacher may be in accident
and emergency, being treated by the student, who has an evening nursing
job: the heirarchy then is quite different.)

The flattening of heirarchies which has happened in INDOLOGY has meant
that people who have spent entire professional carreers developing
scholarly skills in indology have been accessible to complete beginners.
This is a fascinating situation.  In some fields it would, I suspect, be
sustainable.  But in humanities, there are fields like economics and
politics in which the most unlettered person considers it a mark of honour
to have a strong opinion on all questions connected with the
topic.  Apparently indology is also such a subject.  Anybody with any
connection to India seems to feel qualified to argue with people who have
spent a lifetime in the profession.

This is aggravated, of course, by the ideology of the current Indian party
in government, which is not neutral on matters of indology.

In the present situation, I think the value of INDOLOGY as a forum for
scholarship has been eroded to the point at which it is no longer as
useful to professional scholars as it can and should be.

In the next message  I shall explain what I am about to do next.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 17:31:23 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 18:31:23 +0100
Subject: your mail
In-Reply-To: <000201c0c5d0$772421e0$9912fea9@a>
Message-ID: <161227069271.23782.14361271507318156628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Romila,

I have unsubscribed you from the list.  I am just in the middle of closing
down INDOLOGY in its present form, so when you are back, contact me again
and I'll bring you up to date at that time about what has transpired.

Sincerely,
Dominik

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Romila Thapar wrote:

> Dear Dominik Wujastyk, I am sorry to be using the incorrect procedure
> to temporarily be off the indology list, but unfortunately I do not
> know the correct procedure. I am going away for a couple of months and
> thought I should come off the list for this period. Please let me know
> how to join and how to temporarily be off the list - if you allow
> that. I am not knowledgeable about electronic communication, hence
> this e-mail to you. Please excuse me for troubling you. Regards,
> Romila Thapar




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 17:42:06 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 18:42:06 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069275.23782.11990374437690100186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have requested the owners of the INDOLOGY list at the University
of Liverpool to close the list as soon as possible.

I have opened a list at Yahoo, called indology at yahoogroups.com and I shall
be sending everyone from INDOLOGY at liverpool an invitation to join that new
list.  The invitation will contain simple instructions about what to do in
order to join the new list.

I shall not assume any special editorial or moderating function at the
yahoo list; in the longer run I may not even retain my membership; the
discussion can proceed as the membership wishes.  The list members must
behave in a manner which adheres to the guidelines governing Yahoo groups.
See the Yahoo website (http://www.yahoogroups.com) for more details of
the rules governing Yahoo discussion groups.

Best wishes, and good luck everybody!

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 18:42:17 2001
From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 18:42:17 +0000
Subject: On S. Farmer . . .
Message-ID: <161227069288.23782.11027348523086618056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 18:18:42 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 19:18:42 +0100
Subject: Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069277.23782.14874079577734544766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Dominik for giving me the opportunity to learn
so much from Sanskritists. Hopefully the Tamil data
presented over the years is helpful for some Indologists.

I was asking for the "search" facility of the archives when it wasn't.
Will the archives remain available? Also, the yahoogrops
search option is not great as INDOLOGY.

Is it possible an Indology academic run this list or a
similar list?

Thanks, I made many friends here,
N. Ganesan

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
<<<
I have requested the owners of the INDOLOGY list at the University
of Liverpool to close the list as soon as possible.

I have opened a list at Yahoo, called indology at yahoogroups.com and
I shall be sending everyone from INDOLOGY at liverpool an invitation to
join that new list.  The invitation will contain simple instructions
about what to do in order to join the new list.

I shall not assume any special editorial or moderating function at
the yahoo list; in the longer run I may not even retain my membership;
the discussion can proceed as the membership wishes.  The list members
must behave in a manner which adheres to the guidelines governing
Yahoo groups. See the Yahoo website (http://www.yahoogroups.com) for
more details of the rules governing Yahoo discussion groups.

Best wishes, and good luck everybody!

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.
>>>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 18:23:55 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 19:23:55 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] Indology archives
Message-ID: <161227069283.23782.6060683621221051503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The archives of the INDOLOGY list will be preserved in some form or
other.  This has not been discussed internally yet, but don't worry, the
resource will not be abandoned.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Apr 15 18:30:53 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 19:30:53 +0100
Subject: "hierarchy"
Message-ID: <161227069286.23782.18136034897536064701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I really ought to learn how to spell "hierarchy" if I'm going to use the
word so frequently!  Apologies, everyone.

Dominik




From lubint at WLU.EDU  Sun Apr 15 23:41:06 2001
From: lubint at WLU.EDU (Timothy Lubin)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 19:41:06 -0400
Subject: Work by Oberlies
Message-ID: <161227069307.23782.18341986777655433455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In re: Valerie Roebuck's question on Oberlies's studies on the Shvetashvatara, here are the references to his series of studies in the Wiener Zeitschrift fur die Kunde Sudasiens (all diacritical marks omitted):

Oberlies, Thomas. 1988. "Die  Svetasvatara-Upanisad: Eine Studie ihrer Gotteslehre (Studien zu den 'mittleren' Upanisads I)." WZKS 32, 35-62.

_______. 1995. "Die  Svetasvatara-Upanisad: Einleitung -- Edition und ?bersetzung von Adhyaya I (Studien zu den 'mittleren' Upanisads II -- 1. Teil)." WZKS 39, 61-102.

_______. 1996. "Die  Svetasvatara-Upanisad: Edition und ?bersetzung von Adhyaya II-III (Studien zu den 'mittleren' Upanisads II -- 2. Teil)." WZKS 40, 123-160.

_______. 1998. "Die  Svetasvatara-Upanisad: Edition und ?bersetzung von Adhyaya IV-VI (Studien zu den 'mittleren' Upanisads II -- 3. Teil)." WZKS 42, 77-138.



Timothy Lubin
Assistant Professor (Religions of South Asia)
Department of Religion
23 Newcomb Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450

office: 540-463-8146; fax: 540-463-8498
lubint at wlu.edu
http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Apr 15 19:34:09 2001
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 20:34:09 +0100
Subject: Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069290.23782.3321874564623387885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Wujastyk commented that Indian Govt. is partisan in
Indological research. Now, I'm sure the West in its Collective power
will persevere in its mission for truth. Competition is good,
Indology positions for example in Sanskrit and Tamil studies,
Anthropology, Religion, ... can be increased by the West. It is the
West that has  come up with theories and speculations over the last
two centuries. Based on evidence, some times controversial. The
West found important Linguistics data and wrote their findings in
English and other European languages.

I also think barring any insults, Indians must be allowed
to take part in Indological discussions. After all, they
might tell important information which a 100 or so
Indologists cannot know them all.

Regards,
V. Iyer

-----------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:13:00 -0700

I think this is a mistake, an admission of defeat by the yowling
yahoos who try to drown out competing voices with their screams and
insults.

You had a better idea the first time, i.e., to cancel anyone's
membership who uses insulting language.  But you obviously do not
have the time to keep up with the volume.  How about adding two or
three more moderators with authority to squelch insults and noise,
instead of setting up a private, off-limits list (which is what
everyone will assume you are doing)?  And set
up a "lurker" category for people to listen, but not write.

Free speech should not be allowed to be defeated by the saffron- or
white-shirted noisemakers.  Cure the problem, don't stop your speech.

David


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominik Wujastyk"

 > I have requested the owners of the INDOLOGY list at the University
 > of Liverpool to close the list as soon as possible.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET  Sun Apr 15 19:34:17 2001
From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 20:34:17 +0100
Subject: Closing Indology
In-Reply-To: <003201c0c5d7$de254980$71cf0341@c1211450a>
Message-ID: <161227069292.23782.15236009973899109826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm sorry the Indology list is closing.  I'm not sure that I want to be in
a yahoo group!

Thanks, Dominik, for all the work you've put in.

Dr Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

PS  I think David Salmon is quite wrong about Steve Farmer.  Steve may be
provocative, but he is never insulting, and the list has benefited greatly
from his contributions.  It's a shameful thing when people try to silence a
scholar whose views they don't like.




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Sun Apr 15 21:17:00 2001
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 22:17:00 +0100
Subject: Suggestion
Message-ID: <161227069297.23782.3860676332187137982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This suggestion might be too late to implement.Instead of closing the list,
why not hold discussion on the list in the next week or so on the methods
to decrease signal to noise ratio. To control the volume to a manageable
size, the number messages per person per month could be reduced
considerably from the present number.
Next referring to the complaints that private emails are sent to the list
members insulting them, I would like to add such practice must be stopped
immediately. It serves no purpose.Archaeology has always surprised and
derailed the belief system people held dear to them. People from India are
destined to get shocks after shocks in future through the archaeological
excavations. Rioting, insulting and threatening each other is not the way
to handle the new information. It is the job of the Univesity professors in
the country and not of the roadside volunteers of the political parties of
India. How the Indian people will handle if tomarrow it was discovered that
both Hastinapur and Indraprastha were located west of Khyber pass? If you
do not like the views of a famous professor from the famous university in
the west, then create an equivalent chair in the Indian university, pay the
appropriate salary, collect the resources, collect your students instead of
sending them oversees and undertake the serious research.Keep digging in
the Indian soil to find new things.Thanks.




From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Mon Apr 16 02:25:50 2001
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 22:25:50 -0400
Subject: Two quick queries
Message-ID: <161227069312.23782.11640662455890160093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Wow. The death of Indology as we knew it, income taxes, and Easter all on the
same day. I think we're batting .333 at best in the good news department.
Will we always remember what we were thinking and doing the moment we got the
news Indology was dead?

Going on the assumption that we haven't lost Liverpool yet--and fearing that
Gresham's law may operate even more vigorously on Yahoo--I have two quick
queries.

1) Chapters in Sanskrit texts often end with a single sentence that begins
with iti and usually translates as something like, "Thus concludes the nth
chapter of the xyz text." What is this sentence called?

2) Sanskrit texts with English translations printed in India are often laid
out with the Sanskrit verse occupying two lines, then the English occupying a
variable number of lines immediately below it, then the next Sanskrit verse
and its translation, and so on. What is this format called? Interlinear? Or
something else?

Alas, alas for Indology and for ourselves. To what other forum would I addres
s questions such as these? Would I pester individuals persistently? Dun
Deshpande daily? Worry Witzel and Wujastyk willy-nilly? Use Fosse for mental
flosse?

To all past, present, and future moderators: toss offenders off your list
immediately, without warnings, and without appeals. Little will be lost and
much will be gained.

All the best,

Brian

A unique individual.
Unitary.
Without aliases.
Doesn't believe in remailers.
Open to public scrutiny.
Occupying four real dimensions.
Responds to e-mails.
Responds to snail mail.
Occasionally doesn't respond well to criticism.
May someday live up to his potential.
Or not.


--------------------
BrianDanaAkers.com
sfauthor at aol.com




From alimor at INDIA.COM  Sun Apr 15 17:19:54 2001
From: alimor at INDIA.COM (Romila Thapar)
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 01 22:49:54 +0530
Subject: None
Message-ID: <161227069267.23782.2740909053549879284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik Wujastyk,
I am sorry to be using the incorrect procedure to temporarily be off the indology list, but unfortunately I do not know the correct procedure. I am going away for a couple of months and thought I should come off the list for this period. Please let me know how to join and how to temporarily be off the list - if you allow that.
I am not knowledgeable about electronic communication, hence this e-mail to you.
Please excuse me for troubling you.
Regards,
Romila Thapar




From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL  Sun Apr 15 22:22:57 2001
From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 00:22:57 +0200
Subject: Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041522170125@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069301.23782.4906309146705867433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 22:17 01-04-15 +0100, Dr. Narayan Joshi wrote:

Instead of closing the list,
>why not hold discussion on the list in the next week or so on the methods
>to decrease signal to noise ratio.


I do heartily agree, and would like to ask Dominik to reconsider.
"Indology" is worth saving.

Regards,

Artur Karp
Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali
University of Warsaw
Poland




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Sun Apr 15 23:26:22 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 01:26:22 +0200
Subject: Deutsch and Germans
Message-ID: <161227069305.23782.12214519368572585853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ooph, too many things to correct--forgive me if I have
to tell you that actually most of the answers will make
people wonder why this is on the indology list.
So let me do it quickly.
(1) Ethnic and linguistic issues are two very different things.
Evidence points to a dishomogeneous ethnic composition of
the speakers of Indo-European languages.
There has been some ground-breaking genetic research
recently, all pointing to a complicated ethnic situation
far beyond our current understanding.
The evidence seems to point to very different ethnic
groups speaking Indo-European languages. The question
as to why can still not be answered.
According to a theory that I currently tend to favour,
the brown-haired/blond-and-blue-eyed lot are actually not
ethnically predominantly Ethnic-Indo-Europeans, but belong to a
*Proto-Siberian group (non-Mongolian) to which also the Finns,
the Samen and some others belong. For cultural or political reasons
beyond our current historical time span, a quantitatively relatively
small ethnic group of Indo-European speakers seem to have
brought in their language(s) very much like they did
in historic times further south. Indo-European language(s) got
adopted mostly, except in some remote northern regions.
The reasons are not known. My own theory -- totally unprovable... --
is that it may have been because of some major cultural advances
that had not been present in Europe before their arrival. I am thinking
of the wheel for example--the Samen to this day don't use wheels much,
also no horses--in their biotope these things are much more
unpractical than the pre-Indo-European toboggan (now the
motorized variety...) and reindeers...
(2) German < ger "spear" + man "man"... Germans
were often named after their weapons, which were
different from mediterranean military gear, and their
encounters with the mediterranean sphere tended to be
very hostile. Germanic tribes seem to sometimes have
had a ritually dedicated lance, similar to the one that
was later carried in front of the emperor. One of them
still exists in a museum.
The roman spears were really not spears but a clever
kind of close-distance fix-and-lever weapon invented
to render the Celtic shield useless.
An East-Germanic sub-tribe that were named after
their weapons were the Lombards < Langobards,
from lang "long" + bard "sword", "the long-swords".
If you want to look at some real ones (swords, I mean...),
there are some wonderful ones in a back room of the
Milan Museo Archeologico (they only show them to
you if you say you know they are there and could they
please show them to you... Then they grudgingly lead
you around the corner...).
A West-Germanic tribe with a similar naming fate
are the Saxons, from sax "spade-like sword".
(3) The Alamannen, or Alemannen, are an ethnic
group (mine...) the name of which probably means "all men".
We normally pronounce it "Allemannen". It seems to mean
simply "all people". There is also an old German battly-cry
"Alle Mann!!!!!" ("all men (to the attack)"), which has
been brought up to explain the name, but the name
is "Alle-Mannen", with the old -n-stem ending that my
dialect still preserves, and that is not the battle cry, which
anyway seems rather far-fetched.
Another theory has it that it means "all men" in the sense
of "all males", i.e. the "army" of sorts. There is also an
implausible theory which derives ala- from Latin ala "spear".
Implausible because Alemannen is actually a German name for
a German ethnic group. The way they dealt with Roman soldiers
and fortifications when they arrived in Southern Germany
was extraordinarily violent and demonstrates a complete
and utter rejection of anything Roman (see the excavations in
Aalen), so it would seem really weird if they had taken on a
Latin name for themselves...
According to some emerging archaeological and genetic
evidence, the Alamannen were not a distinctive Germanic
sub-group before their settling down.
Some current analyses seem to suggest that the same might
be true for many other Germanic tribes.
The evidence seems to suggest that Germanic tribes were
very homogeneous, hardly different from each other, before
they settled down. They then seem to have mixed with
the considerable, possibly much more numerous local
populations, resulting in the known German tribes.
Few people nowadays know that Celtic was spoken in the
Salzburg area well into the eleventh century AD.
(4) The name of the city of Trier is derived from Latin
"Augusta Treverorum", freely translateable as "the Empire
City of the Treveri". The Treveri seem to have been an
ethnically mainly Celtic group, part of the Gallo-Roman
cultural ambitus. Similar such groups were present in
many areas up and down the Rhine and the Danube.
Mainz, for example, is from Mogontiacum, again a
Gallo-Roman Latinized version of a Celtic name.
My own geographic home area is literally covered
with Celtic place names (and tumuli...) --Rhein, Neckar,
Main, Isar, Iller, Kempten, Biberach, Alpen/Alb, I could
go on forever...
(5) Germans in the normal sense are not Semites,
but of course there has long been a considerable
Jewish presence in central Europe. What happened
two generations ago was a catastrophic self-mutilation.
We have just started digitising a beautiful 14th-century
hand-written Hebrew book in the University Library
of Tuebingen. Full of miniatures. It looks so much like
from a twin culture. So German, but everything in Hebrew...
Beautiful miniatures that look as if they were from
a catholic monastery...
In the medieval period, a tiny group of apparently nomadic
"Saracens" (Arabs) is on record in Switzerland.
A fascinating study from the University of Parma
recently seems to show that an ethnic group from
vaguely the Middle East seems to have arrived
in Europe at a relatively late pre-historic point,
but nobody I think has yet been able or daring enough
to qualify this group as Indo-Europeans or Semitic or
something else as far as I know.
(6) Aryan as an ethnic term shows up outside the
Indo-Iranian sphere. "Eire"/Ireland preserves the
root, too--Irish really means "Arish...".
The Finnish word for "stranger/slave" is orya "Aryan"
(I hope I am getting this right--I have it from Parpola).
Aryan as a linguistic term refers to Indo-Iranian
nowadays.
(7) Prussia, Chatti/Hessen etc. are not related
to anything Mesopotamian etc. I skip that
explanation--I am already 300% above the
decency limit again...

Take care,
Gunthard Mueller

"Narayan R.Joshi" wrote:

> It was refreshing to know that the adjective "deutsch" is derived from
> Germanic "thiuda"(people).What is the etymology of the word "German" when
> it was used by Romans to the tribes pouring into Europe from Asia in the
> first and second centuries AD? The search of literature on this subject
> offers contradictory information.Among the most significant of these early
> tribes were Chatti(ancestors of the modern Hessians), Treveri,Tungri,and
> Alammani.Now some relate Chatti to Hatti or Hittites.It appears that the
> label German was originally applied by Romans to the tribe Tungri but
> according to the record of Caesar all 4 tribes were called collectively
> Germani by Romans.There was another tribe by the name Cheruschi led by the
> warrior chieftain and German folk hero, Hermann(Latin:Arminius).It appears
> to me that the name German might be related to the tribal name Cheruschi.I
> may be wrong.Because of the ancient linguistic connection, we have Indo-
> Germanic languages.This connection is used sometimes to show that Germanic
> tribes originated in Central Asia and moved gradually towards the east
> European location over the period of thousand years from 1000 BCE to 1
> AD.On the other hand people of the German city Trier (Treves) boast that
> their city was founded centuries before Rome by Trebeta(REF-BOOK-"In
> deutschen Landen" by Josef K.L.Bihl), the son of famous Assyrian king Ninus
> (Biblical Nimrod). Semiramis was married to Nimrod, the founder of Babylon
> (Genesis-10:8-10). Genesis 10:11 says that Asshur and his descendants went
> out of Babylon(or out of land of Shinar)and constructed Assyrian capital,
> Nineveh. The ancient kings of Assyria called themselves "Khatti-sars".
> Could it mean "Kings of Hatti or kings of Kaldu, the Khaldian people? Is
> the word "Goth" related to the "Guti" people from the ancient MIddle-east
> history? What is the true story?
> Now Biblical scholars have tendency to relate somehow all human races to
> the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth(sons of flood famous Noah around
> 4050 BCE). According to Biblical scholars, the children of Shem were
> Elam,Asshur,Arphaxad,Lud and Aram.It is said that Asshur,the son of Shem
> was the father of the white racial strain(fair skin and lighter hair). It
> is said that Abraham the Hebrew (about 2000 BCE) was begotten of the line
> of Arphaxad, the third son of Shem. Are then Germans and Israelites(Hebrews)
> descended from the common ancestor? What is also the origin of the
> word "Prussia?" Is it related to the word Assyrian? Could the earlier
> version of Asshur be Vasshur changing into Prussia(Grimm's rule)? At the
> end of my inquiry I would like add a cautionary note.Efforts by some Indian
> authors of connecting Assyrians to the Asuras of the ancient Indian books
> based only on phonetic similitude were wrong.Connecting the ancient Germans
> to Aryans was also wrong because it was attested several times that the
> word "Aryan" makes sense if any only in the context of the ancient Iranian
> and Indian people.Turkish and Mongolian tribes from the Central Asia were
> not Aryans either.Irish were not Aryans either.Thanks.




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Sun Apr 15 23:50:26 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 01:50:26 +0200
Subject: Closing of INDOLOGY list
Message-ID: <161227069309.23782.7497244325126673932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I fully concur.
It would be a great loss if the list came to a grinding halt
because of the regrettable recent incidents.
Some of the suggestions that were just made for ways of
preventing such trouble sound very reasonable.
Publicized identities might work.
Also, what if personal attacks and insults were to be
systematically rewarded by temporary
bans from the list? Or would it be a lot of hassle and
responsibility to enforce for any single list master I
wonder. Dominik might get personally attacked again if
he takes any measures. Maybe the burden could be shifted
to a committee of maybe three or four people
who would not contribute to the list for the duration
of their membership on the committee. Say, six
months. Then some form of public election of the
next committee members. The normal running of
the list could be done by Dominik, but if any temporary
shut-outs are to be enforced for the protection of the
list, they would be called for by the changing and
hopefully impartial committee.

It would be a pity if we lost this list.

Yours,
Gunthard






Harry Spier wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> Dominik in his posting about closing the list talks about how the list gave
> access to the worlds best scholars in Indology.  Perhaps that is the most
> remarkable achievement of the list in making Indological Scholarship known
> and available to a wider public. That was certainly my experience when by
> accident I came across the list on the internet several years ago.  I have
> often been touched by the time and care that the ziSTas on the list give in
> sharing their knowledge.   Perhaps that is whats most offensive in the
> mudslinging, i.e. those against whom the mud is slung. No Professor or
> researcher or Phd student ever got tenure, recognition or a single penny by
> responding to an internet query, yet that is what they do again and again
> with knowledge and care and skill.  There is a sanskrit word for this - seva
> - service given without any self-serving motive .  My heartfelt thanks to
> Drs. Wujastyk, Deshpande, Vassilkov, Lopez, Witzel, Rao, Brockington, Smith,
>   Kochhar, Lehmann, Novetz, Knobl, Baumann, Torella, Dyczkowski,
> Mayer-Koneg, Zydenbos and Thompson (and many many more) for generously
> sharing their knowledge.
>
> I for one think it will be a great loss if the list closes down and I hope
> that does not occur.
>
> Harry Spier
> 371 Brickman Rd.
> Hurleyville, New York
> USA 12747
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA  Mon Apr 16 06:59:30 2001
From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 02:59:30 -0400
Subject: Save Indology
Message-ID: <161227069326.23782.5817886946400406161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indology is my way of starting my morning and feeling the sun. Please save
it.

Harsha Dehejia.




From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 16 02:28:11 2001
From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 03:28:11 +0100
Subject: "hierarchy"
Message-ID: <161227069314.23782.18160501479511545683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   Heirarchy! James Juice would love this one. Indology must pay homage to
your endeavour and patience.We all do. May you have all the success you
deserve... which really means: GOOD LUCK.

Thanks and all the best

Jesualdo Correia



>>
>I really ought to learn how to spell "hierarchy" if I'm going to use the
>word so frequently!  Apologies, everyone.
>
>Dominik

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Mon Apr 16 04:47:35 2001
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R.Joshi)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 05:47:35 +0100
Subject: Judging of offenders
Message-ID: <161227069318.23782.13849442956160515035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Having 650 (less than 50 frequent visitors of Indian origin)list members is
an asset and not a liability. It shows interests in various aspects of the
ancient Indian civilization by the scholars from the different corners of
the world. In my opinion, judging the contributors other than those who
fall in the category of exceeding the quota per person per week or per
month will be a difficult task for a single or for a group of
moderators.Instead of following the drastic measure of cutting the
contributor cum offender off the list without notice, would not it be
appropriate to follow a moderate remedy first of decreasing the frequency
of contributions per person? Then wait for a couple of months to see the
results. One is again free to proceed based upon the results.Thanks.




From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET  Mon Apr 16 07:09:19 2001
From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 08:09:19 +0100
Subject: Work by Oberlies
In-Reply-To: <sad9f95e.076@WISDOM.uc.wlu.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069320.23782.6801240743732812981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you very much, Melanie Malzahn and Timothy Lubin.

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK

>In re: Valerie Roebuck's question on Oberlies's studies on the
>Shvetashvatara, here are the references to his series of studies in the
>Wiener Zeitschrift fur die Kunde Sudasiens (all diacritical marks omitted):




From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK  Mon Apr 16 08:23:34 2001
From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 09:23:34 +0100
Subject: Closing of INDOLOGY list
Message-ID: <161227069322.23782.7167098234299589253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The closing of Indology list is certainly a great loss to ordinary educated
people, Indians or not, of getting to know first hand the thoughts, opinions of
professional Sanskritists , Dravidologists and other other scholors doing
intensive work on India's past from linguistic or historical or archeological or
any other angle. It also gave a chance for non-academics like me to air an
opinion occasionally.

Thanks for many scholors and the administrator of the list for their effort so
far. The closure of this list , I suppose, is due to the inability of the
administrator, to spend more time on this. This is perfectly undertandable . If
at all the list is to run further, the only way is for a small committee of
moderators to administer it, probably taken from different continents so that
each one works only during office hours. Ruthlessly cut out insulting messages
and messages which get too personal




From ghezziem at TIN.IT  Mon Apr 16 09:24:27 2001
From: ghezziem at TIN.IT (Daniela Rossella)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 09:24:27 +0000
Subject: INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069324.23782.15758947274136598245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Indology" is worth saving.
Daniela

****************************************************************
Ph.D. Dr. Daniela Rossella
Piazza Buzzati, 5
43100 PARMA (Italy)
tel. & fax +39.0521.773854
cell. +39.338 3198904
ghezziem at tin.it

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/data/indiv/area/idsas/ROSSELLA,Daniela.htm

*****************************************************************




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Mon Apr 16 05:05:55 2001
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 10:35:55 +0530
Subject: nonclosure
Message-ID: <161227069316.23782.11210400036835770420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is difficult to create, but easy to destroy.DO not close the list. Delist members, if and when needed  .Threat to cut the baby into two is all right not the actual cutting up.
rajesh kochhar




From kharper at LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU  Mon Apr 16 17:47:21 2001
From: kharper at LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU (Katherine Harper)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 10:47:21 -0700
Subject: Thank you
Message-ID: <161227069339.23782.2141411099982785711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik;
I would like to thank you for the endless hours of hard work that you have
given to
the members of the list. Like other members, the list started my day, gave
a sense
of purpose to my own research, and provided me endless resources. I shall
be very
sad at the demise of the list. I hope that you might reconsider and restart
the list by
enforcing very strict codes of behavior. Whatever you choice, I am grateful
to you for
the wonderful opportunity you gave all of us.  Sincerely,

Katherine Anne Harper
Loyola Marymount University




From kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE  Mon Apr 16 10:54:58 2001
From: kupferka at UNI-FREIBURG.DE (Katharina Kupfer)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 12:54:58 +0200
Subject: Closing of INDOLOGY list
Message-ID: <161227069328.23782.10874582746961401022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

First I want to thank Dominik Wujastyk for running INDOLOGY and then I
would ask him not to close this list.

K. Kupfer
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Katharina Kupfer                        kupferka at uni-freiburg.de
Sprachwissenschaftliches Seminar
Albert-Ludwigs-Universitaet Freiburg
Werthmannpl. 3                          Phone: +49/761/203-3167
D-79085 Freiburg                        Fax: +49/761/203-3203
        http://www.uni-freiburg.de/indogerm/kupfer.htm
         http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/tht.htm
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *




From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET  Mon Apr 16 17:23:57 2001
From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 13:23:57 -0400
Subject: Belated thank you for Lhasa inquiry replies
Message-ID: <161227069337.23782.2866603513425609364.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

About a month ago, I queried the members about how long it might take to
walk from Nalanda to Lhasa, or Lhasa to Nalanda. I would like to take this
seeming last opportunity to thank all of the list members who replied, both
on list and off.


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
United States of America
Telephone: 215-747-6204
email: emstern at bellatlantic.net




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Apr 16 13:52:12 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 14:52:12 +0100
Subject: Save Indology
Message-ID: <161227069330.23782.13613196008306875077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Joshi wrote:
>would not it be appropriate to follow a moderate remedy first of decreasing
>the frequency of contributions per person?

I think Dr. Kochhar suggested this before. However this policy, though
not explicit, has been implemented by Dr. Wujastyk for a long time.
He insists of about 15 messages per month. But my point is
as long as the messages are 1) not insulting, 2) does not refer to
a living person's name or recent post and 3) when the message
is relevant indologically, why block them? With scholarly and/or
philological references. After all India is one billion people and
growing.

I fully understand the difficult role that Dominik has had to take,
initially he might not have thought so much work is involved here.
Our Founder has done a tremendous job, and hope that he'll
continue to handle Indology list. A committee, no doubt, has to
help him in the cutting up of membership priveleges.

Thanks,
N. Ganesan




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Apr 16 20:22:50 2001
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 16:22:50 -0400
Subject: Important Linguistic  News From Nepal
Message-ID: <161227069341.23782.15029903098171404638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For those interested in the substrate languages of South Asia, I quote a
message just received from P. Whitehouse, on the Mother Tongue list.

As is known, Kusunda is one of the few isolates in South Asia, next to
Burushaski, the ultimate substrate of Nahali etc., that cannot  (or only
very difficultly so) be linked to any other language outside the
subbcontinent.

Kusunda, known only from the British colonial official B.Hodgson in the
early 19th c. and from a few papers in the Seventies, has been declared
dead  quite a few times.

The news of its demise --just as that of INDOLOGY, we hope! -- have been a
bit premature, though not largely exaggerated:

===========================QUOTE:========================

For those of you interested in Kusunda, I have just been informed by B. K.
Rana that only last week he found two more elderly Kusunda speakers ?in
some remote rural area of Nepal.

There is still hope, therefore, that we will one day have a complete
lexicon and grammar of this important isolate.

For the biogeneticists amongst you, we need DNA samples from these people
(esp. mtDNA and y-chromosome) as a matter of urgency. Them and the Nihals.

Paul Whitehouse

========================================================


K.B. Rana's earlier articles is in the Nepalese Journal Janajati, Vol 4.

For a summary on the Kusunda  and Nahals, see EJVS Sept. 1999
http://nautilus.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html

and for recent additions to our knowdege of Nahali, see Asha Mundlay,
Mother Tongue II
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/MT2.htm and vol.III
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/MT3.htm

Our thanks to these intrepid scholars traveling through the difficult
terrain of Central Nepal and N. Maharastra in order to trace these First
South Asians!

If there were only more of them!

MW>















========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From mbauri at HOME.COM  Mon Apr 16 15:39:19 2001
From: mbauri at HOME.COM (Meenakshi Bauri)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 16:39:19 +0100
Subject: save Indology
Message-ID: <161227069332.23782.6921082039105504661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"The flattening of heirarchies which has happened in INDOLOGY has meant
that people who have spent entire professional carreers developing
scholarly skills in indology have been accessible to complete beginners.
This is a fascinating situation." Dominik Wujastyk

A fascinating and a remarkable situation!  I personally have benefitted
greatly.  There may be many more like me who have been silent participants,
obseving and learning.  I think it is time to voice our opinion  to help
keep the forum open.


I thank the respected members of the forum for providing this opportunity.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Mon Apr 16 16:30:44 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 18:30:44 +0200
Subject: SV: On S. Farmer . . .
Message-ID: <161227069334.23782.13876849643239513973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

David Salmon [SMTP:dsalmon at SALMON.ORG] skrev 15. april 2001 20:13:
> Dr. Farmer,
>
> If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I think this is off the mark. In Academia, you should be able to stand the
heat of the *argument* in a professional discussion. You should not have to
stand the heat of personal harassment and libel. That sort of things is for
politicians to enjoy. They usually deserve it.

Lars Martin Fosse



Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From dancona at MAIL.BBSNET.COM  Tue Apr 17 01:03:17 2001
From: dancona at MAIL.BBSNET.COM (dancona)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 21:03:17 -0400
Subject: Heartfelt thanks
Message-ID: <161227069350.23782.8471914063215720001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,

My profound thanks to you and the learned contributors to this 

list. It has been my daily joy and sustenance for some years now. I 

understand your position having monitored a list on Ayurveda 

myself but, my heart for one will jump for joy, should you 

reconsider or find a way to keep the list alive. Many blessings in 

any case.

Hari Om!

Swami Shivananda Sarasvati D.Ay.




From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Apr 17 01:10:54 2001
From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 21:10:54 -0400
Subject: [ADMIN] Closing INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041700473668@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069353.23782.11065335676800153517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,
I can't claim myself as an Indologist, but do keep
an interest in it through Sanskrit, translations
and Indian scriptures.  The list ceratinly gave me
an exposure to topics that I would not have received
otherwise.  I am thankful to you and many who
took time to research and post.  I could have followed up
words with the translators, but never found any discussion.

The list was soewhat hotch-potch and occasionally
political.  India has various groups now with varying
degrees of scholarship and these groups do have a
tendency to challenge earlier perceptions of India.
My personal feeling has been that most of India's
classical history taught in schools is most likely
wrong, since they "force" to connect stories.  New
research in archaeology and anthropology is lacking
leading only to speculative theories.  Various
"established" scholars are not convincing enough
in their arguments.  The list seemed to have
a tendency to create arguments.

In the science of knowledge, controversies and
arguments are healthy.  Even though we have theories
for many observations, we understand the
universe or the human life only very partially.
So to feel that "book" must be closed on theories
is a wrong proposition that Indology suffers.
The argumentation could be much less severe if
the "novice" observations were not looked down
as "nuisance".  People who lurk and share thoughts
are expected to have training and they are
probably equal or brighter than most of us in the list.
The empirical cultural observation must play as
much of a role as focused study on a topic for a few years.
I do observe that my knowledge in sanskrit can be
superior to some of the trained sanskritists simply because
of my interest in Indian literature.

I fail to see why you think the list lost its purpose.
People who use abusive language must not be in any public list.
But listening to empirical observations from the
people of the soil would certainly enhance the knowledge base
in the profession.  The reason most of the Indology
theories are shallow because of their test through
observations have not been followed through.  I also
find various western "scholars" get more agitated and
political than the "novices" on the other side.

Naturally you are the best judge of the situation.
There is no labor involved to maintain the list.
Do make a rule that no abusive language would be
tolerated.  Apply the rule objectively.  I think
eventually Indology would gain.  By closing the
list, Indology would go back in time.  And finally,
do screen the members with a form to filter pure noise.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra


On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Raveen Satkurunathan wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:04:51 +0200, Ferenc Ruzsa <f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I agree that a radical step was unavoidable.
> >But why not a thorough reform instead? E. g. a closed list for serious
> >scholars, but open for everyone to read? Please, reconsider.
> >
>
> Yahoo groups will allow you to do that. As a 'moderator' of a group which
> has now over 1,700 members and another at 405 I can say that by allowing
> only members to post and keeping the archive open to public viewing
> decreases the noise to signal ratio considerably. There were days of over
> 10,000 hits in one my email groups due to a link appearing in a prominent
> news paper.
>
> The only hard work is in approving the 'right kind of members'. Once it is
> done the group will function on its own. No need to moderate mails on a
> daily basis.  Further if valuable articles of this soon to be closed email
> list are to be archived then there are many free websites, which will
> archive them for you.  The following egroup is a good source for anyone
> needing information on anything to do with email groups :-)
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mediamentor
>




From vraja at WEST.NET  Tue Apr 17 04:46:30 2001
From: vraja at WEST.NET (Pravrajika Vrajaprana)
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 01 21:46:30 -0700
Subject: Closing Indology
In-Reply-To: <004e01c0c6d3$917a89e0$9a2e893e@stephen>
Message-ID: <161227069357.23782.5816794140599573460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  It would be a great pity to have the ungrateful and ill-mannered
trample something so appreciated by many of us.
  Thanks to all, particularly to Dominik the Exceedingly Patient, who
have made this forum a valuable resource.
  Pravrajika Vrajaprana




From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Mon Apr 16 23:47:36 2001
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 00:47:36 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069346.23782.5489543251886343428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:04:51 +0200, Ferenc Ruzsa <f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU>
wrote:


>I agree that a radical step was unavoidable.
>But why not a thorough reform instead? E. g. a closed list for serious
>scholars, but open for everyone to read? Please, reconsider.
>

Yahoo groups will allow you to do that. As a 'moderator' of a group which
has now over 1,700 members and another at 405 I can say that by allowing
only members to post and keeping the archive open to public viewing
decreases the noise to signal ratio considerably. There were days of over
10,000 hits in one my email groups due to a link appearing in a prominent
news paper.

The only hard work is in approving the 'right kind of members'. Once it is
done the group will function on its own. No need to moderate mails on a
daily basis.  Further if valuable articles of this soon to be closed email
list are to be archived then there are many free websites, which will
archive them for you.  The following egroup is a good source for anyone
needing information on anything to do with email groups :-)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mediamentor




From f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU  Mon Apr 16 23:04:51 2001
From: f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 01:04:51 +0200
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069344.23782.9836408781464714377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you, Dominik, for all your troubles; time and again I was admiring your
patience.

I agree that a radical step was unavoidable.
But why not a thorough reform instead? E. g. a closed list for serious
scholars, but open for everyone to read? Please, reconsider.

The loss will be really great for those who work far away from traditional
centres of Indological learning. We will feel cut off again from the rest of
the world.

With best wishes - and if this is really the end, then good-bye, everyone

Ferenc
--------------------------------------------------------
Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD
associate professor of philosophy
E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest
e-mail: f_ruzsa at ludens.elte.hu




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Tue Apr 17 00:15:07 2001
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 01:15:07 +0100
Subject: Closing Indology
Message-ID: <161227069348.23782.5544815882244842728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,

Let me also add my voice to the chorus of disappointed Indology
subscribers -- it has been a rare and useful forum that has helped and
stimulated me on several occasions.  I also thank you heartily for all
the work you have put into running the list and do hope you find some
way of perpetuating it -- perhaps you could ask for a small team of
volunteer moderators to help out ?

Also, is it not strange to notice who has and has not sent you msgs of
support and regret concerning your decision --  those who have gone
out of their way to sabotage the list with their interminable
stupidity, bad manners, paranoia and fanaticism are rather silent for
a change !   Still I suppose they'll find another list to wreck :(

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

(hoping for some kind of Indology re-incarnation but not, pls, with
Yahoo)




From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Tue Apr 17 02:34:33 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 03:34:33 +0100
Subject: Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069355.23782.17677471612355950191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Buddha gave the village that had given him hospitality
the blessing that they be scattered to the four winds.
So it is with Indology.

There is a vacuum regarding the past in the popular culture of
India today.  Something is going to fill that vacuum, what that is
is partly your choice.

-Arun Gupta




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Tue Apr 17 10:41:39 2001
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 06:41:39 -0400
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <v02130500b701c70e9d44@[10.2.26.188]>
Message-ID: <161227069375.23782.4598266756309143010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,

        I would like to thank you for all the opportunities that were made
available through Indology.  I have benefitted enormously just by being in
communication with so many samaanadharmaa folks.  Without such
communication, we all become inward, each one locked up in our closed
environments.  I realize that your role as moderator has been at times
painful due to immoderate and intemperate language used by some on the
list.  However, let us not throw away the baby with the bath water.  I
would wholeheartedly support proposals for converting this list to a more
moderated form.  I would offer to join such a moderating committee, if
that would diminish your burden.  I hope and pray that you would
reconsider the idea of closing down Indology.

                                                Madhav Deshpande




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Apr 17 13:58:25 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 06:58:25 -0700
Subject: Closing Indology
In-Reply-To: <01K2HZ7NMFJU03VZT4@ritvax.isc.rit.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069396.23782.7237329771036199604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Pl. consider also:

Rama entering the outcaste Matanga's wood. The battle between vAlin
and sugrIva, decisions made there, [....]

Didn't the Indologist discuss the buffalo sacrifice, a particularly
non-Vedic one, and its ancient memories in the epic?


--- "V.V. Raman" <VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU> wrote:
> Two thoughts:
> 1.  Dominik's plight and frustration reminds me of the following statement by
> Vishvamitra (Balakanda: XIX):
> "Not long ago, I initiated a major sacrificial ritual. But before I could
> complete it, two rakshasas showed up to thwart my effort. They flung raw
> flesh
> and impure blood on my altar. "
> The sage recognized the magnitude of the disruptive forces. However, instead
> of
> abandoning the undertaking, he sought the assistance of Rama and Lakshmana,
> and
> succeeded.
> I suggest that Dominik follow that illustrious model.
>
> 2. The pressures on the Indology group refelct the very stressful times in
> which we live. With all their goodwill and effort at objectivity, it is very
> difficult for
> scholars (of humanistic disciplines) to work in their ivory towers.
> Excessive as some of the utterances have been, they were prompted more often
> by
> deep anger and indignation rather than purely sinister motives. This is not
> to
> condone such behavior or to suggest that we cater to it, but to try to
> understand it.
>
> V. V. Raman
> April 17, 2001


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Apr 17 14:26:38 2001
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 07:26:38 -0700
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10104170628210.7478-100000@gorf.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069400.23782.7457722853224740619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

With 650+ members, is it possible that a rotating system where
one Indologist (or a lister selected by Indologist(s)) reads the messages
and then allows the posts to reach the whole list? This moderation effort
is for *one* week only, and once a year per Indologist. It should not be a big
burden on personal time. In any case, there are members who read all the
messages. So, why not read them before their appearance on the List. Just
for a week per Indologist shouldn't be terribly time-consuming.


--- Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> wrote:
> Dear Dominik,
>
>         I would like to thank you for all the opportunities that were made
> available through Indology.  I have benefitted enormously just by being in
> communication with so many samaanadharmaa folks.  Without such
> communication, we all become inward, each one locked up in our closed
> environments.  I realize that your role as moderator has been at times
> painful due to immoderate and intemperate language used by some on the
> list.  However, let us not throw away the baby with the bath water.  I
> would wholeheartedly support proposals for converting this list to a more
> moderated form.  I would offer to join such a moderating committee, if
> that would diminish your burden.  I hope and pray that you would
> reconsider the idea of closing down Indology.
>
>                                                 Madhav Deshpande


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU  Tue Apr 17 11:32:50 2001
From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 07:32:50 -0400
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069382.23782.6180244095104734726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to join my voice to the sentiments of gratitude and
appreciation to Domink Wujastyk just expressed by Prof. Kumar, and expressed
earlier by others.  Indology has been of great value over the several years
I have read it and I regard that value as a gift from Dominik.  I remember
the two or three earlier rounds of this discussion of the fundamental nature
of the list, and I have always agreed with the value of the more open and
democratic form of discussion and exchange that Dominik has opted for.  I
still think those values are important, but now I also think there is a
place for a more closed discussion.  There are several other fora that
foster the uninhibited challenging of assumptions and time-honored
conclusions.  It is the "uninhibited" aspect of much of the recent
discussion that devalues the list, in my judgment--posts uninhibited by any
sense of obligation to be informed by existing and past scholarly results
and discussions; uninhibited by any sense of responsibility to reasonable
and scholarly discourse.  The lack of inhibition derives, I think, from the
fact that some people (and this has nothing to do with anyone's ethnic
origins) are dominated by their existential commitments or anxieties
(religious, philsophical, political, or social) and are not much interested
in the discussion of issues apart from the urgent emotions of their faith or
resentments.  As a professor of religious studies at a university in the
(not aptly named) "Bible belt" of the US, I encounter this boundary all the
time.  People of a certain religious temper have difficulty picking up on
the "impious," or even "blasphemous" discussions of secular scholars or
scholars working outside their community of faith (I have upon occasion
thought of recommending we all reread Van A. Harvey's _The Historian and the
Believer_).  I think people full of political or social anger may be
compared to the impatiently pious in this regard.  It is not that I like to
imagine scholarship isolated from these passions and concerns, but I do
think scholarship is a worthwhile and valuable enterprise, and it does
require some isolation from people who are not committed to it, do not
understand it, do not care about it, who even may find it inconvenient or
threatening.  Scholarship is valuable enough that it deserves *some*
channels of communication unto itself.  So I hope that an Indology list
closer to the one Dominik has always had in mind can find some way to
continue to exist.  And, as others have done, I will volunteer to lend a
small hand, if a co-operative effort can be of any use.

Sincerely,

Jim Fitzgerald

James L. Fitzgerald, Professor             jfitzg1 at bellsouth.net,
jfitzge1 at utk.edu
Dept. of Religious Studies                    office:  (865) 974-2466
501 McClung Tower                           fax:      (865) 974-0965
Univ. of Tennessee
Knoxville, TN, 37996-0450




From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU  Tue Apr 17 11:58:17 2001
From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 07:58:17 -0400
Subject: Closing Indology
In-Reply-To: <004e01c0c6d3$917a89e0$9a2e893e@stephen>
Message-ID: <161227069384.23782.5818204568705607124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Two thoughts:
1.  Dominik's plight and frustration reminds me of the following statement by
Vishvamitra (Balakanda: XIX):
"Not long ago, I initiated a major sacrificial ritual. But before I could
complete it, two rakshasas showed up to thwart my effort. They flung raw flesh
and impure blood on my altar. "
The sage recognized the magnitude of the disruptive forces. However, instead of
abandoning the undertaking, he sought the assistance of Rama and Lakshmana, and
succeeded.
I suggest that Dominik follow that illustrious model.

2. The pressures on the Indology group refelct the very stressful times in
which we live. With all their goodwill and effort at objectivity, it is very
difficult for
scholars (of humanistic disciplines) to work in their ivory towers.
Excessive as some of the utterances have been, they were prompted more often by
deep anger and indignation rather than purely sinister motives. This is not to
condone such behavior or to suggest that we cater to it, but to try to
understand it.

V. V. Raman
April 17, 2001




From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU  Tue Apr 17 12:33:29 2001
From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 08:33:29 -0400
Subject: save Indology
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2001041616391979@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069389.23782.11278215797393454842.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,

I agree with Meenakshi Bauri. I hope you will reconsider this radical
move. I have been a silent lurker on the list, but have learned so much
from it! Could we maybe have a list where anybody can read the discussion,
but only serious and interested people (ones with at least general
knowledge, who are not just here to flaunt their ignorance and ill will)
can post?

Please let's think of some less draconian solution to the problem.

yours with hope for some solution,
Fran


On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Meenakshi Bauri wrote:

> "The flattening of heirarchies which has happened in INDOLOGY has meant
> that people who have spent entire professional carreers developing
> scholarly skills in indology have been accessible to complete beginners.
> This is a fascinating situation." Dominik Wujastyk
>
> A fascinating and a remarkable situation!  I personally have benefitted
> greatly.  There may be many more like me who have been silent participants,
> obseving and learning.  I think it is time to voice our opinion  to help
> keep the forum open.
>
>
> I thank the respected members of the forum for providing this opportunity.
>




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Apr 17 07:29:14 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 09:29:14 +0200
Subject: SV: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069359.23782.12196786762279569791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ferenc Ruzsa [SMTP:f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU] skrev 17. april 2001 01:05:
> Thank you, Dominik, for all your troubles; time and again I was admiring
your
> patience.
>
> I agree that a radical step was unavoidable.
> But why not a thorough reform instead? E. g. a closed list for serious
> scholars, but open for everyone to read? Please, reconsider.

I second Ferenc Ruzsa's proposal! (As well as all the thanks to Dominik).

Some years ago, I shared Dominik's views on availability. The development
of Indology has shown that without a moderator, any open list can become
the prey of political marauders and other non-desireables. Since a
moderator is out of the question, Ferenc's proposal seems to be the best
choice: A list where professionals with "write" privilege discuss, whereas
others with an interest in the subject can listen in. With such an
arrangement, non-professionals who want to ask serious questions can turn
directly to the experts on the list and get an answer in private, whereas
the readers of the list don't have to waste their time on bizarre and
uprofessional discussions. The motives for propagandistic assaults will
then disappear, and Indology might then return to being what it was
originally: an important scholarly resource.

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Tue Apr 17 16:43:18 2001
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 09:43:18 -0700
Subject: [ADMIN] Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069404.23782.5766494312246681534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

no. 108

Oh dear, Such a brilliantly straightforward and profound educational tool.
What a waste! (That Dominik fellow is a Master Trickster.) Would do any
good ? I'd vote to kick Ven. Tantra off. All in favour. . .

VT
Kloster Vien Giac
Hannover

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Tue Apr 17 08:24:40 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 10:24:40 +0200
Subject: What next
Message-ID: <161227069364.23782.15382771049939277649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik and other friends --

Profs. Fosse and Ruzsa--
I don't think that the interested public should be
prevented from asking serious questions on the
list. I think many valuable contributions were
in response to such questions, and they are the
reason for why the informed public is interested
in the list resources that have accumulated.
Professionals tend to ask themselves insider
questions, like references for books etc., which
are important, but not very exciting. One should
also not forget that professionalism is no guarantee
for decency. Let me just remind everybody of
the bickering or outright warfare that went on
between Weber-Aufrecht, Rudolph Roth-Max Mueller
etc. etc.; it does exist nowadays also...

I think the main problem is --as I think Prof Fosse
also implied just now-- the fact that Dominik is
thinking about stopping, i.e. the lack of a moderator
or moderating committee.

So I am wondering if I should offer to host
a non-Yahoo continuation of the list in case Dominik
really doesn't want to continue?
I could put it on one of our servers. The software
is in place any way. I would just have to have it
activated.
I was anyway planning to set up something
for Shrivaishnavism specially.

We could try together to set up a rotating committee
system for decency (sounds ominous, but obviously
necessary in view of what happened),
and run it like a gentlemen's (and of course
ladies') club, say like the Bangalore Club.
Membership to the character-wise
privileged only... Applications to be screened
and approved on probation.
Member identities and addresses to be public
within the list.
Discretion of a rotating committee to cancel or
suspend membership on decency basis, or on
the basis of other disturbance factors. For example
if somebody really sends truly abysmal nonsense,
we could suspend membership until he proves he
has swallowed an intelligence pill...
Periodic touch-base with everybody to
see if they are happy with the way the "club"
is being run...
Before start-up, a call for suggestions,
drawing up a wish-list, seeing if it's possible
timewise. Maybe the burden should be
shouldered by several? I wonder if I am offering
more than I can handle on the side. Maybe if
we make it a bit democratic I don't have to
work too much... :-|

I don't know--ideally I would still prefer Dominik
to continue. And maybe a Yahoo list IS enough.
Please let me know everybody.

 Yours,
Gunthard




From vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE  Tue Apr 17 09:02:01 2001
From: vielle at ORI.UCL.AC.BE (Vielle Christophe)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 11:02:01 +0200
Subject: SV: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
In-Reply-To: <01C0C721.52C58B20.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227069366.23782.8527927466490812544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ruzsa-Fosse's proposal seems also to me a very good one.
It would be the "service" of the scholars in indology, acting as "filters",
to submit to that kind of list the valuable questions they would get from
non-specialists.
Anyway, thank you to Dominik Wujastyk (in fact, do you get the copies of
the articles on IE medical comparison that I sent to you some months ago?).

>Ferenc Ruzsa [SMTP:f_ruzsa at LUDENS.ELTE.HU] skrev 17. april 2001 01:05:
>> Thank you, Dominik, for all your troubles; time and again I was admiring
>your
>> patience.
>>
>> I agree that a radical step was unavoidable.
>> But why not a thorough reform instead? E. g. a closed list for serious
>> scholars, but open for everyone to read? Please, reconsider.
>
>I second Ferenc Ruzsa's proposal! (As well as all the thanks to Dominik).
>
>Some years ago, I shared Dominik's views on availability. The development
>of Indology has shown that without a moderator, any open list can become
>the prey of political marauders and other non-desireables. Since a
>moderator is out of the question, Ferenc's proposal seems to be the best
>choice: A list where professionals with "write" privilege discuss, whereas
>others with an interest in the subject can listen in. With such an
>arrangement, non-professionals who want to ask serious questions can turn
>directly to the experts on the list and get an answer in private, whereas
>the readers of the list don't have to waste their time on bizarre and
>uprofessional discussions. The motives for propagandistic assaults will
>then disappear, and Indology might then return to being what it was
>originally: an important scholarly resource.
>
>Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. Christophe Vielle
Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud
Institut orientaliste
Place Blaise Pascal 1
B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve
BELGIUM
Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home)
E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be




From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU  Tue Apr 17 16:17:35 2001
From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 11:17:35 -0500
Subject: Closing Indology
In-Reply-To: <004e01c0c6d3$917a89e0$9a2e893e@stephen>
Message-ID: <161227069402.23782.617430282502237670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dominik,

I agree with Stephen Hodge's message. There must be some other way to
continue Indology the way you had originally envisioned.


Sincerely,

Naseem.
____________________________________
On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Stephen Hodge wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
>
> Let me also add my voice to the chorus of disappointed Indology
> subscribers -- it has been a rare and useful forum that has helped and
> stimulated me on several occasions.  I also thank you heartily for all
> the work you have put into running the list and do hope you find some
> way of perpetuating it -- perhaps you could ask for a small team of
> volunteer moderators to help out ?
>
> Also, is it not strange to notice who has and has not sent you msgs of
> support and regret concerning your decision --  those who have gone
> out of their way to sabotage the list with their interminable
> stupidity, bad manners, paranoia and fanaticism are rather silent for
> a change !   Still I suppose they'll find another list to wreck :(
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge
>
> (hoping for some kind of Indology re-incarnation but not, pls, with
> Yahoo)
>




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Tue Apr 17 18:36:15 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 11:36:15 -0700
Subject: SV: On S. Farmer . . .
Message-ID: <161227069408.23782.12620510810655755912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> David Salmon skrev 15. april 2001 20:13:
> > Dr. Farmer,
> >
> > If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
>
> I think this is off the mark. In Academia, you should be able to stand the
> heat of the *argument* in a professional discussion. You should not have
to stand the heat of personal harassment and libel. That sort of things is
for> politicians to enjoy. They usually deserve it.
>
> Lars Martin Fosse


My point precisely.  Dr. Farmer, and to a lesser extent, Prof. Witzel, have
been engaging in politics, attacking what they see (with considerable
justification) as fascist tendencies in some groups in India.  But along the
way, they went beyond what was necessary to defend academic theory and
facts, especially Dr. Farmer with his "satire" in which he discovered little
satellite antennas in the IVC seals, and so on.

I have supported them when they defended matters of liberty or
defended their theories, and will continue to do so.  But when Dr. Farmer
started to scornfully attack people and views, rather than defend theories
or facts or liberty, he went beyond the needs of the case, engaged in
politics, and needlessly and pointlessly offended others.  If he would stick
to his lathe, he might do fine, I don't know.  But he -has- been engaging in
politics.

I'm not saying the political effort is not worthwhile, given the stakes
and the danger.  I see no reason why we in the "West" should sit silently
by (which is what closing the Indology list to that reality would mean).  To
the contrary, we must defend our own interest--and theirs--in the freedom to
hold unpopular ideas.  I do so, after my fashion, as have you, and Dr.
Farmer and Prof. Witzel and a great many others.  But Dr. Farmer has made
the job harder than it needed to be.  (I distinguish him from Prof. Witzel
because Prof. Witzel, in my view, has been somewhat more circumspect,
particularly lately.)  The harassment Dr. Farmer faced when he first zeroed
in on Dr. Rajaram was undeserved, an attack on the messenger for bringing
an unpopular message, an attempt to shut him up.  The harassment Farmer
faces these days is much more of his own making.  It ill behooves him to
appeal to us for support against his attackers when he has been insulting
them right and left, largely for his own amusement, so far as one can tell.

One who appeals to reason must act reasonably.  If he would knock off the
personalities and snappy but cutting remarks, he would be a lot more
successful, and receive more a willing support from those like me, who
admire his courage, if not his tactics.

David




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Apr 17 09:52:27 2001
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 11:52:27 +0200
Subject: SV: What next
Message-ID: <161227069369.23782.5978058536608775765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Gunthard Mueller [SMTP:gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM] skrev 17. april 2001 10:25:
> Profs. Fosse and Ruzsa--
> I don't think that the interested public should be
> prevented from asking serious questions on the
> list.

I believe this is a problem related to the technicalities involved. If we
have a non-open list, it implies that only certain persons are allowed to
publish on the list. The nice thing about having outsiders turn directly to
the experts on the list, is that we get as many "editors" as there are
members of the list with "write" privilege. A list-member may decide to
answer an inquiry in private, or s/he may decide to pass the message on to
the rest of the list, whether it is a question or a comment. This gives us
the necessary filter to keep out nonsense.

> Professionals tend to ask themselves insider
> questions, like references for books etc., which
> are important, but not very exciting.

As far as I can remember, the Indology list had a number of interesting
discussions before it was wrecked. Although insiders ask each other a
number of questions like the ones you mention (they are useful enough for
professionals), the list does not have to be exclusively tuned to this kind
of thing. I am a member of two other lists (both moderated) where all sorts
of debates and info are channelled through to the receivers. They show a
fine balance between scholarly debates and practical info seeking.

> So I am wondering if I should offer to host
> a non-Yahoo continuation of the list in case Dominik
> really doesn't want to continue?

This sounds like an interesting alternative. But let us wait and see what
Dominik comes up with!

Best regards,

Lars Martin

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no

**** The sender of this mail is not a professor, associate professor or any
other kind of university employee***




From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK  Tue Apr 17 12:10:01 2001
From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 12:10:01 +0000
Subject: IASS web site
Message-ID: <161227069377.23782.1700284445109900379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

Before the INDOLOGY list closes, let me announce to those of you professionally interested
in the subject that a web site with some basic information about the International
Association of Sanskrit Studies has now been established, thanks to the good offices of
Dominik Wujastyk, to whom I tender my thanks on behalf of the IASS,     as well as sending my
own personal thanks to him for all that he has done to further the cause of Indology through
this list over the years.

The address for the site is  http://iass.findhere.com

(this is in fact an alias for its less memorable true address, which is
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/iasss/).


Yours sincerely

John Brockington
Secretary General of the IASS

Professor J. L. Brockington
Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies
University of Edinburgh
7-8 Buccleuch Place
Edinburgh   EH8 9LW     U.K.

tel: +131 650 4174
fax: +131 651 1258




From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET  Tue Apr 17 11:23:33 2001
From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 12:23:33 +0100
Subject: What next
In-Reply-To: <3ADBFDC8.CF0226F@anthosimprint.com>
Message-ID: <161227069380.23782.1979487177350272937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'd like to support Gunthard Mueller's suggestions, and second the idea of
himself as one of the Moderators.  As an additional Moderator, I'd like to
propose that we invite Vidyasankar Sundaresan to re-join us in that role,
if he can spare the time.  He is extremely knowledgeable and unfailingly
courteous, and I think would have the confidence of all members of the list.

Dr Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Tue Apr 17 10:27:46 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 12:27:46 +0200
Subject: SV: What next
Message-ID: <161227069373.23782.14725036167935403540.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You may well be right.
I am worried that interesting discussions
might slide off the list. Your concern is to prevent
the opposite, i.e. bad stuff to crop up too much.
It's difficult to gauge which would be the main
issue. As we have had a bit of a hard time with
what is essentially the approach that I would favour,
maybe we should follow your approach this time round.
Anyway, before anything happens, Dominik might
reconsider anyway (Dominik???????), and if not,
we should anyway have a thorough discussion about
it all before going ahead with anything.
Yours,
Gunthard

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> Gunthard Mueller [SMTP:gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM] skrev 17. april 2001 10:25:
> > Profs. Fosse and Ruzsa--
> > I don't think that the interested public should be
> > prevented from asking serious questions on the
> > list.
>
> I believe this is a problem related to the technicalities involved. If we
> have a non-open list, it implies that only certain persons are allowed to
> publish on the list. The nice thing about having outsiders turn directly to
> the experts on the list, is that we get as many "editors" as there are
> members of the list with "write" privilege. A list-member may decide to
> answer an inquiry in private, or s/he may decide to pass the message on to
> the rest of the list, whether it is a question or a comment. This gives us
> the necessary filter to keep out nonsense.
>
> > Professionals tend to ask themselves insider
> > questions, like references for books etc., which
> > are important, but not very exciting.
>
> As far as I can remember, the Indology list had a number of interesting
> discussions before it was wrecked. Although insiders ask each other a
> number of questions like the ones you mention (they are useful enough for
> professionals), the list does not have to be exclusively tuned to this kind
> of thing. I am a member of two other lists (both moderated) where all sorts
> of debates and info are channelled through to the receivers. They show a
> fine balance between scholarly debates and practical info seeking.
>
> > So I am wondering if I should offer to host
> > a non-Yahoo continuation of the list in case Dominik
> > really doesn't want to continue?
>
> This sounds like an interesting alternative. But let us wait and see what
> Dominik comes up with!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lars Martin
>
> Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
> Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
> 0674 Oslo
> Norway
> Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
> Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
> Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
> Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
> Email: lmfosse at online.no
>
> **** The sender of this mail is not a professor, associate professor or any
> other kind of university employee***




From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA  Tue Apr 17 10:32:21 2001
From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof. P. Kumar)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 12:32:21 +0200
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069371.23782.2331698942286369374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Wujastyk,

I am probably the only one from South Africa who might be on your list.
Although I have not participated in all the discussions, I have always been
a keen reader of the debates and discussions which as you rightly feel
sometimes went beyond/below scholarly levels and often bordered on some
sort of ethnic ideology. I myself was often disturbed by the nature and the
level of the debates, but I did not wish to poke my nose as you were in
full control when it was necessary to use your editorial powers. I am
merely writing this message to express my personal gratitude to you for the
most wonderful service you have been providing in the name of Indology.
Whether you would continue as the editor in the new list on Yahoo or not (I
wish you could), I wish you well in all your other endeavours, and I wish
to place on record that you have been a great boon to the indological
scholarship and you DESERVE A BIG THANK YOU. Thank you and hope to meet you
sometime and offer my thanks in person. It has been good knowing you this
way.

Cheers,

Pratap

Prof. P. Kumar, Centre for Religious Studies, University of Durban-Westville
Private BagX54001, Durban, 4000
South Africa, Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work), Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work)




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Tue Apr 17 08:19:12 2001
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 13:49:12 +0530
Subject: recasting
Message-ID: <161227069362.23782.10522080827322847592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The list should not be shut down. But the opportunity should be used to recast it.In the new format,there should be  some respect for scholarship and academic accomplishments.The norms should be more or less the same as in refereed research journals.
(1)Frequency of posts should be decreased.
(2)Undignified behaviour, as ascertained by the Moderator , should be sufficient reason for  terminating membership 
(3)Membership of the Indology list should not be the sole reason for being a member. Those desirous of joining/remaining on the list must give some independent proof of being able to participate.
(4) There can be associate members, whose posts should be routed through a member.
(5) Members on their part should act as author - cum - referee for their own writings.

In earlier times access to available information / scholarship / learning / insights was restricted by considerations of caste / class / money and opportunity . Egalitarianism of internet should convert the whole world into a university and not a university into  the andher nagari of chaupat raja, where bhaji and khaja both sell for a taka a seer.

rajesh kochhar




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Apr 17 13:39:50 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 14:39:50 +0100
Subject: NGMPP query (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227069394.23782.10022174194541091635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:27:17 +0200
From: Michael Zimmermann <fo0a002 at uni-hamburg.de>

*****************************************************************

Dear colleagues,

We are planning to compile a list of all publications for which material
(manuscripts, xylographs, historical documents, etc.) microfilmed by the
Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project (NGMPP) was used, i.e.
editions, translations, studies, be it articles or books.

If you have published anything using NGMPP material, we would appreciate
it if you could send us a list of these publications.

Information on publications involving texts in Sanskrit, Nepali, Newari,
and other South Asian languages should be emailed to

Johannes Vagt:  fo0a003 at uni-hamburg.de or
Michael Zimmermann:  fo0a002 at uni-hamburg.de

Information on publications involving texts in Tibetan
should be emailed to
Orna Almogi:  fo0a004 at uni-hamburg.de

  With best regards,

    the NGMPP team, University of Hamburg, Germany


PS Please note that the NGMPP doesn't have a representative in Nepal at
present. If you wish to order microfilms, please contact the National
Archives in Kathmandu directly. The contact details are to be found on our
homepage: http://www.uni-hamburg.de/Wiss/FB/10/IndienS/NGMPP/index.html.

*********************************************************************

--
Michael Zimmermann
Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project (NGMPP)
University of Hamburg
Institute for India and Tibet
Neue Rabenstr. 3
20354 Hamburg
Germany

tel.:  +49-40-42838 6267
fax:  +49-40-42838 6944
email: fo0a002 at uni-hamburg.de

http://www.uni-hamburg.de/Wiss/FB/10/IndienS/NGMPP/index.html




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Tue Apr 17 22:09:48 2001
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 15:09:48 -0700
Subject: Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069412.23782.12739355751337727669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

May it please the Court:

In considering the academic functions of this forum, please consider the
pedagogic function.  This vast seminar teaches more than Indic linguistics.
It is also teaching how controversial ideas are addressed in a free society.

But this is not a public forum, a place for political free-for-alls.  It is
intended primarily to serve the needs of the professional Indology
community.

Might it be possible to have -two- separate but equal lists, governed
jointly?  The first would be reserved for strictly academic subjects; the
second would be open to the overflow.  A committee of academics and lurkers
could assist our Founder in enforcing courteous speech -in both lists-  and
in directing messages to the correct list.

Members of one would automatically be members of both, but speaking
privileges in the academic forum could be limited to academics.  The number
of messages can be limited in the academic forum if the academics see the
need, but, frankly, Naga Ganesan's many postings are academically
worthwhile, imho.   No one should be thrown off without a private warning
and opportunity to reply privately, with appeal to the committee.
Punishments should be graduated, rather than all-or-nothing.

Respectfully submitted,

David




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 17 14:10:54 2001
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 15:10:54 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069398.23782.2979678551064662719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  What about a committee, say of 10 Indologists ?-
Prof. Deshpande, Witzel, Wujastyk, Aklujkar, Simson, Fosse, Houben,
Mueller, Raman, Zydenbos, Fitzgerald, Mueller ...

  The mails have an incubating time, say 24 hours ;
Any member of the (large) moderating committee reads it and finds it
OK (main criterion: no insults), pushes the button and then
the post appears on the INDOLOGY website.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


-------------------------------
Prof. Madhav Deshpande wrote:

Dear Dominik,

         I would like to thank you for all the opportunities that were
made available through Indology.  I have benefitted enormously just
by being in communication with so many samaanadharmaa folks.  Without
such communication, we all become inward, each one locked up in our
closed environments.  I realize that your role as moderator has been
at times painful due to immoderate and intemperate language used by
some on the list.  However, let us not throw away the baby with the
bath water.  I would wholeheartedly support proposals for converting
this list to a more moderated form.  I would offer to join such a
moderating committee, if that would diminish your burden.  I hope and
pray that you would reconsider the idea of closing down Indology.

                                                 Madhav Deshpande
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Tue Apr 17 12:11:17 2001
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 15:11:17 +0300
Subject: No subject was specified.
Message-ID: <161227069387.23782.6543595659471624679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to add my thanks to those already expressed. Though some of
the recent debates have been extremely frustrating reading, the list is
still valuable, for example for the insider questions mentioned. I
really hope some kind of solution may be found.

Klaus

--
Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D.
Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094




From archna at CSE.IITK.AC.IN  Tue Apr 17 12:55:30 2001
From: archna at CSE.IITK.AC.IN (T Archna)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 18:25:30 +0530
Subject: save Indology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10104170825180.1167-100000@aloha.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069391.23782.16688327030888794737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

i am a silent lurker on this list, and i too would like to thank Dominik for
his great effort, patience and labour of love on INDOLOGY. For me this list
has been a great source of information, learning and, if i may say so
without offence, amusement. If Indology does indeed close down [and i hope
it does not] it will be a cause for substantial regret.

Dominik, i sincerely hope that some of the suggestions posted by other
members will be both viable and acceptable to you. In any case, thank you
very much once again.

T Archna
Department of Computer Science & Engineering
IIT Kanpur 208016
India




From satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Apr 17 18:56:52 2001
From: satya_upadhya at HOTMAIL.COM (Satya Upadhya)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 18:56:52 +0000
Subject: David Salmon
Message-ID: <161227069410.23782.3706163012625399167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Given the bizarre claims the Hindutva waadis have been making--claiming all
kinds of science and technology in ancient India--Dr Farmer's satire was
well within the limits of scholarship in my opinion.

I request David to stop getting into personalities and do some original
research or else write amusing satires (with or without Vishal Agarwal).

-Satya


>My point precisely.  Dr. Farmer, and to a lesser extent, Prof. Witzel, have
>been engaging in politics, attacking what they see (with considerable
>justification) as fascist tendencies in some groups in India.  But along
>the
>way, they went beyond what was necessary to defend academic theory and
>facts, especially Dr. Farmer with his "satire" in which he discovered
>little
>satellite antennas in the IVC seals, and so on.
>
>I have supported them when they defended matters of liberty or
>defended their theories, and will continue to do so.  But when Dr. Farmer
>started to scornfully attack people and views, rather than defend theories
>or facts or liberty, he went beyond the needs of the case, engaged in
>politics, and needlessly and pointlessly offended others.  If he would
>stick
>to his lathe, he might do fine, I don't know.  But he -has- been engaging
>in
>politics.
>
>I'm not saying the political effort is not worthwhile, given the stakes
>and the danger.  I see no reason why we in the "West" should sit silently
>by (which is what closing the Indology list to that reality would mean).
>To
>the contrary, we must defend our own interest--and theirs--in the freedom
>to
>hold unpopular ideas.  I do so, after my fashion, as have you, and Dr.
>Farmer and Prof. Witzel and a great many others.  But Dr. Farmer has made
>the job harder than it needed to be.  (I distinguish him from Prof. Witzel
>because Prof. Witzel, in my view, has been somewhat more circumspect,
>particularly lately.)  The harassment Dr. Farmer faced when he first zeroed
>in on Dr. Rajaram was undeserved, an attack on the messenger for bringing
>an unpopular message, an attempt to shut him up.  The harassment Farmer
>faces these days is much more of his own making.  It ill behooves him to
>appeal to us for support against his attackers when he has been insulting
>them right and left, largely for his own amusement, so far as one can tell.
>
>One who appeals to reason must act reasonably.  If he would knock off the
>personalities and snappy but cutting remarks, he would be a lot more
>successful, and receive more a willing support from those like me, who
>admire his courage, if not his tactics.
>
>David

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.




From suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET  Tue Apr 17 18:02:04 2001
From: suvidya at OPTONLINE.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 19:02:04 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069406.23782.10267963308070457311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik, Thanks for Indology !
---

Speaking only for myself, there were three recent occasions when I wrote,
when silence was probably more appropriate to the goals of Indology.

1. The Pythogoras/Bose/gravity etc. - the first item in the thread started
by attacking an RSS pamphlet, and then went beyond that.

2. The thread about possible introduction of Vedic astrology courses in
Indian universities -- the first item pointed to an article, that while
informative, also contained a political attack.

3. The Gita thread -- this was prompted by a reference to Doniger's
statement that the "Gita is dishonest".  Though a statement by a scholar,
that is not a scholarly statement.

Then there is the general naivete or willful ignorance on this list that the
Aryan invasion/immigration issue is purely a Hindu-right-wing fanatic issue.
The fact is that part of the Dalit movement, the Dravidian movement in South
India and the Sinhalese-Tamil conflict in Sri Lanka all have as an
underlying assumption a version of AIT.  There are right-wing groups in
Europe who use AIT as well.

I am sorry for having added noise to Indology.  To be frank, it does not
change my emotional well-being if the RV was composed in 5000 BC or 500 BC,
whether the Gita is single-layered, multi-layered, part of the original
Epic, or interpolated later.  I execrate the VHP and RSS and am becoming an
active Hindu at least in part to be able to deny their claim to represent
me.  I have no compelling need to respond to a scholarly dissection of any
ideology.

So you can deduce what prompts me to speak up.  Apart from that, myself and
many like myself, I suspect, would be happy to be silent observers.

-Arun Gupta




From lubint at WLU.EDU  Tue Apr 17 23:37:19 2001
From: lubint at WLU.EDU (Timothy Lubin)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 01 19:37:19 -0400
Subject: [ADMIN]  Closing INDOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227069414.23782.4946463362058511855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many fixes have been proposed, some involving one or more moderators; if
nothing else, I would like to see at least Ferenc Ruzsa's suggestion - -
"a closed list for serious scholars, but open for everyone to read" - -
given a try.  I belong to a similar list, which works quite well.  In
any case, I echo all the expressions of thanks to Dominik that have
filled the list these last couple days!


Timothy Lubin
Assistant Professor (Religions of South Asia)
Department of Religion
23 Newcomb Hall
Washington and Lee University
Lexington, VA 24450

office: 540-463-8146; fax: 540-463-8498
lubint at wlu.edu
http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint




From kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU  Wed Apr 18 00:39:45 2001
From: kharimot at SAS.UPENN.EDU (Kengo Harimoto)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 02:39:45 +0200
Subject: What next
In-Reply-To: <200104172258.f3HMwua12448@orion.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069416.23782.17662476130616550213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello list,

Gunthard Mueller's idea is something I have long been pondering about.
Setting up a server shouldn't be difficult (but maitaining it would
be).  If I had a machine with permanent connection to the Net, I would
consider it.

Another idea I have been pondering was to have indology.net or
indology.org domain and a web site.  Last time I checked, the Network
Solution reserves those domain names.  (Which, I assume, is for sale.)

There is a popular geek site called slashdot.org.  It offers quite
reasonable moderation system, and its source is open.

The slash system works like this: topics are posted chosen from
submissions to the site.  The selection and the postings of the topics
are done by a few administrators.  Members and even non-members can
post comments to the topics.  Automatically rotating anonymous
moderators give and take points to and from the comments.  And readers
can set the threshold at which points they want to read the comments.
So, if one moderator marks a comment as a flamebait, (score -1)
someone reading the site at threshold over 0 does not have to read it.
BTW they call the system karma system.

My description may not seem comprehensive.  So, I'd urge interested
parties to look at the site.

I have been wondering if indology ever goes to web based discussion
forum, it could implement slash style system.

Flame wars and trolls have always been part of the Internet (as long
as I know).  I certainly miss Indology if it dies because of them.

--
kengo




From gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM  Wed Apr 18 00:43:37 2001
From: gm at ANTHOSIMPRINT.COM (Gunthard Mueller)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 02:43:37 +0200
Subject: What next
Message-ID: <161227069418.23782.7827414745817576645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Kengo, I'll look it up!
Regs, Gunthard

Kengo Harimoto wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> Gunthard Mueller's idea is something I have long been pondering about.
> Setting up a server shouldn't be difficult (but maitaining it would
> be).  If I had a machine with permanent connection to the Net, I would
> consider it.
>
> Another idea I have been pondering was to have indology.net or
> indology.org domain and a web site.  Last time I checked, the Network
> Solution reserves those domain names.  (Which, I assume, is for sale.)
>
> There is a popular geek site called slashdot.org.  It offers quite
> reasonable moderation system, and its source is open.
>
> The slash system works like this: topics are posted chosen from
> submissions to the site.  The selection and the postings of the topics
> are done by a few administrators.  Members and even non-members can
> post comments to the topics.  Automatically rotating anonymous
> moderators give and take points to and from the comments.  And readers
> can set the threshold at which points they want to read the comments.
> So, if one moderator marks a comment as a flamebait, (score -1)
> someone reading the site at threshold over 0 does not have to read it.
> BTW they call the system karma system.
>
> My description may not seem comprehensive.  So, I'd urge interested
> parties to look at the site.
>
> I have been wondering if indology ever goes to web based discussion
> forum, it could implement slash style system.
>
> Flame wars and trolls have always been part of the Internet (as long
> as I know).  I certainly miss Indology if it dies because of them.
>
> --
> kengo




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 18 10:26:12 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 11:26:12 +0100
Subject: Thanks and further thoughts
Message-ID: <161227069423.23782.7881357075996145125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Many thanks to the people who have said kind things about INDOLOGY.  I can
see that it has performed an interesting and unexpectedly varied function,
with academic, social, and personal aspects (I especially like the idea of
people starting the day with a coffee and INDOLOGY!).

I have, in fact, set up a small committee of fellow indologists who have
been kind enough to say they will help me with thinking through and
managing whatever comes next.

As about 200 of you already know, I am sending out daily batches of
invitations from the new indology @ yahoo list.  In about ten days, all
current members of INDOLOGY should have received such an invitation.  The
Yahoo list may end up being very good indeed; if everyone from INDOLOGY
joins, it will have the same membership as INDOLOGY at the moment; new
people can, of course, join.  At the moment, I am the sole moderator of
the Yahoo list, but it is my intention to play almost no role in managing
that forum, and it may be appropriate in the coming months to hand over
the role of moderator to one or more other colleagues.  (Please don't
write to me about this! :-)  The facilities offered by Yahoogroups are
very good; people can upload interesting files, hold polls to vote on
issues, and "chat" (by typing) with each other in real time.

It is likely, though not yet completely settled, that I shall start up a
new discussion list with a membership controlled by the committee, and
limited to working academic indologists, i.e., university-level academics
who do this stuff full time.  The various issues to do with this list are
currently being thought through by the committee and me, and we will make
some decisions in the coming weeks.

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for your responses and
comments.  I'm reading everything, and some of the more detailed
suggestions about future possibilities are getting discussed by the
new committee.

Best,
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 18 10:40:55 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 11:40:55 +0100
Subject: What next
In-Reply-To: <20010418023945B.kharimot@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <161227069424.23782.15380715886034049568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kengo Harimoto wrote:

> Another idea I have been pondering was to have indology.net or
> indology.org domain and a web site.  Last time I checked, the Network
> Solution reserves those domain names.  (Which, I assume, is for sale.)

I have already registered www.indology.org.uk (and co.uk) in my name.  At
the time I did that, the various other indology.* URLs were taken.  In
particular, someone called Sheshan in Madras has registered indology.net
and indology.org , both of which would be quite suitable for our
endeavours. (However, indology.org.uk is quite adequate for present
purposes.)  I tried to contact Sheshan without luck (no reply). Hist
details:
                             N., SESHAN  (SNE42)  venkat at SOFFIA.COM
                              SESHAN N.
                              OLD 10/NEW 21, SINGARAM STREET
                              CHENNAI, TN 600017
                              IN
                              914-482-12153


--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 18 11:18:20 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 12:18:20 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN]  INDOLOGY now close for posting
Message-ID: <161227069427.23782.12371548512380751974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The INDOLOGY list is now closed.

Members will receive messages, but I am the only person permitted to post
messages.

Please do not post messages to the INDOLOGY address any longer, since they
will just bounce, and may cause a headache for the administrators in
Liverpool.

Thank you,

Dominik




From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ  Wed Apr 18 02:54:06 2001
From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Richard B Mahoney)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 14:54:06 +1200
Subject: [ADMIN] closing of the list (a wee suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <"from ucgadkw"@UCL.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227069420.23782.6171682309330070960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Wujastyk,

On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:29:09PM +0100, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

>  When I started INDOLOGY a decade ago, I had in mind a list for
>  fifty or so of my professional colleagues.

>  Over the years, INDOLOGY has become something else entirely, and
>  membership now stands at about 650.

[snip]

>  In the present situation, I think the value of INDOLOGY as a
>  forum for scholarship has been eroded to the point at which it is
>  no longer as useful to professional scholars as it can and should
>  be.

[snip]

I would very much regret the loss of INDOLOGY. I can think of
only one other list where I might receive such useful replies to
`dry' bibliographical questions. Isolated as I am such help is
invaluable. And this is only one small aspect of INDOLOGY.

Yet for all its strengths, the management of INDOLOGY in its
present form is clearly attended with difficulties which must
make the task less than pleasant. Dominik has shown far more
patience than I could ever hope to muster.

I would welcome the continuation of the list, although in a
slightly different form. Perhaps progress could be made by
increasing the number of those who administer the list and
reducing the number of those who could subscribe?

Whatever is decided, I do think that something may be learned
from the way that H-Net addresses many of these issues. A good
number of academic forums already exist. It is also possible to
establish new forums. Information on H-Net can be found at:

 http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/lists/

 http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/lists/application.cgi

It seems to me that the criteria outlined in the application
questionnaire could find favour with many of the present
subscribers to INDOLOGY.

I hope all this is useful.

Many regards,

 Richard Mahoney



--
------------------------ Richard Mahoney -------------------------
78 Jeffreys Rd                                      +64-3-351-5831
Christchurch                                           New Zealand
--------------- mailto:rbm49 at csc.canterbury.ac.nz ----------------




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Apr 18 15:01:41 2001
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 01 16:01:41 +0100
Subject: The list is now closed.
Message-ID: <161227069429.23782.15609357188127343507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please do not post further messages to indology at liverpool.ac.uk, since the
list is now closed.

Please do not send queries or complaints to the list managers at
the University of Liverpool.

I am sending out invitations in batches of 50 per day to all INDOLOGY
members to join the new indology at yahoogroups.com   If you don't want to
wait for your invitation, you can go directly to

        http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/indology

and register and subscribe from there.

Many thanks,
--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.