From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Fri Sep  1 00:43:25 2000
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 00:43:25 +0000
Subject: [Re: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten)]
Message-ID: <161227061248.23782.3929442467945910289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Speaking as an attorney but not expert in copyright law, I think fair use of
copyrighted material, especially electronic material that is not always
available, could well include making a copy for personal use.  I would
respectfully suggest you not take your copyright advice from Indologists,
but consult a good copyright lawyer.

David Salmon

----- Original Message -----
From: "JAEKWAN SHIM" <shimj at USA.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Re: Inputting Sanskrit Dictionary(Bon-wa Daijiten)]


> Once more on copyright.
> We surely have to keep(or have possibly been kept in the Buddhist sense
:-))
> the distance from the ORIGINALITY or creativity a dictionary has, which,
> however, does not simply comes from the FACT of the exchangeable value of
> meaning between the two different languages, I think.
>
> Jaekwan Shim
> Dept. of Philosophy
> Kangnung National Univ.
> South Korea
>
>
>
>
> Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote:
>
> > As far as I know the Bon-Wa Jiten is still copyrighted.  As I
> > understand the situation, unless you have explicit permission from the
> > publishers, it will be illegal under international copyright law to
> > publish this electronically -- I assume Korea is a signatory to this
> > law.
>
> It is a breach of copyright law to make the copy in the first place, not
> just to distribute it.  Even in private, for one's own use.  Still not
> legal.
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list.
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>
>




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  1 16:16:08 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 09:16:08 -0700
Subject: Gujarati in Tamil script (Was: interesting experience)
Message-ID: <161227061280.23782.10759492376902311856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:16:08 GMT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed



 ><< I would like to see a single text where Tamil was
 >used to write Gujarati texts, ..>>
 >
 >Well, actually it was and is used to write Saurashtri, a form of
 >Gujarati used by Gujarati brahmans who moved to the Tamil country
 >many centuries ago.

Saurashtra "brahmins", who eat non-vegetarian food,
are analogous to the smiths/carpenters - the "visvakarma brahmins".
As Dr. Zydenbos mentioned once, the veerasaivism in the Deccan
redefined brahminhood in the South. In the Vijayanagar periods,
when Kannada chieftains in the start and later Telugu Nayakdoms
were ruling, the "left-handed" service castes, who are usually
"mobile" (jangama), competed with brahmins. And, claimed that
they too are brahmins imitating the samskara rituals, and wearing
the thread. Especially, in that heavily guarded skill - literacy.

There were many from Saurashtra community who were disciples
of Carnatic musicians like St. Tyagarajar. In Madurai,
Nadanagopalanayaki Swamikal was a Srivaishnavaite saint
who often cross-dressed like AaNTaaL, the only female Alvar.

The Vijayanagar era festival par excellence, the Vijayadasami
incorporates the two groups - sarasvati and aayudha pujas,
one for the brahmins, and the other for the "new" brahmins.
>?From the visvakarma brahmins, many tamil poets - kaTikaimuttu,
cuppiratIpam, mAmpazak kavicciGkam, ... wrote in the
"little" kingdoms. KaTikamuttu taught Tamil to umaRuppulavar
who wrote the Islamic epic, cii.raappuraa.nam.
cuppiratIpam was the teacher to the Jesuit priest from Italy,
Veeramaamunivar.

These poets' works usually question the supremacy of brahmins.
Oftentimes the hero who drinks, goes after many dasis, and suffers
poverty and disease (VD) at the end and then miraculously saved
by God is a brahmin. This happens for the first time in Tamil
literature. Earlier, the heros are usually Vellalas, and the
brahmins are praised all the time in poetry. Well in concert with
the time-honored priest-peasant alliance, explained by
the late Burton Stein. OTOH, the literature from the Nayak
period often portrays the brahmin in poor light.
This originates from the Deccan where Veerassaivism starts out
anti-brahminical (See the introduction in Warriors of "Siva,
Velcheru Narayanarao). Periyar EVR Naicker whose mothertongue
is Kannada comes from Veerashaivaite background.

Many prabandhams from the Vijayanagar period remain unedited,
from mss. and the social, historic and literary study of these
works have not been done in depth.

Regards,
N. Ganesan





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From athr at LOC.GOV  Fri Sep  1 13:49:41 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 09:49:41 -0400
Subject: Gujarati in Tamil script (Was: interesting experience)
Message-ID: <161227061276.23782.16945473307983743004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<< I would like to see a single text where Tamil was
used to write Gujarati texts, ..>>

Well, actually it was and is used to write Saurashtri, a form of
Gujarati used by Gujarati brahmans who moved to the Tamil country many
centuries ago.

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Fri Sep  1 12:38:16 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 13:38:16 +0100
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061274.23782.7077341960681539022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I do not know if this is an appropriate forum to discuss this topic . I
have grown up in India, and presently living in North America for many
years . I grew up in India right at the time of independence. India had won
its independence in an unique way which is unparallel in history . The
independence movement , some say started from the time of Shivajee, and
some others, from the time of Dadabhai Naoroje etc. People may have
differing opinions about it . In any case, the movement was lead by the
intellectuals . After winning the independence, Gandhijee did not hold any
position of power. The intellectuals primarily drafted the constitution
which, some say was practically left unaltered from a British Document .
Cosmetic changes were made . Whatever be  the truth, the point is: Whenever
the constitution does not protect individuals from law breakers, it ought
to be changed  irrespective of caste, religion etc of the individuals.

In many states in India, the people are leading the livies full of terror .
ItPolice protection or law and order is a joke. Government treasury is
being plundered . Even if , as some say , law will take its course, but if
that takes more than life times of individuals , what sense does it make ?
If this being so, why pretend that India has the best constitution in the
world ?

In contrast, I see that most of the West Europeans, and North American
countries have been able to deal with such problems quite effectively . In
U>S.A. the crime situation is worse, but , openly - no one can defy the law
whereas they make mockery of the law . Where have human right activists
gone ?
Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Fri Sep  1 08:26:08 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 13:56:08 +0530
Subject: interesting experience
In-Reply-To: <200009010414.PAA20057@mail.anu.edu.au>
Message-ID: <161227061267.23782.6510036454806269751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Stephen J Brown wrote:
> ... His response was immediatly shocking to me. He told
> me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi,
> they are actually speaking Urdu.

 He is right. As Urdu spread across the Delhi Sultanate (12th century
onwards), it intermingled with various Prakrits, giving rise to pidgins
like Hindi and Hindustani. The Hindus then used this mixed language
Hindustani to speak to each other, leading to the spread of this hybird
Urdu outside the core Delhi Sultanate (where Urdu itself was spoken). It
became the lingua france amongst Hindus as it was considered `PC' because
two Hindus using it would be speaking a `neutral' third language.

  Most Hindus, even UP upper castes, do not understand the Modern
Standard Hindi. Instead, they speak the local Prakrit at home, and
Hindustani when in other states. Indeed, school Hindi is merely a
Sanskritised form of Hindustani, which is in turn derived from Urdu. So
your informant was right - the Hindustani of Bollywood films is actually
Urdu. This is a `fossil' of the Mughal Empire.

> This seems a bit of a rediculous claim
> considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an
> arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim?

 That is because much `Hindi' literature is actually Braj Bhasa, which has
nothing to do with Urdu (Braj is a Prakrit dating back to 8-10th century
AD). Also, it is lumped together with other distinct languages such as
Magadhi, Marathi and Rajasthani as `Hindi' for purely political purposes.

Samar




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Fri Sep  1 09:34:39 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 15:04:39 +0530
Subject: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <39AE3819.5FDF@del3.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227061270.23782.3926601290168959780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 These posts reflect the official line, which is taught to millions of
children. Hence it is time to analyse some inherent contradictions.
BTW - nothing personal about this post, which is about official history.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Bharat Gupt wrote:
> Urdu...grew out of the linguistic trends prevalent in India much before
> Islamic invasion.

 So here, we learn that Urdu existed prior to the advent of Muslims (712
AD). But this is directly contradicted by the theory claiming hat Urdu
formed at the end of the Mughal Empire (18th century) : -

> ... the fact is that what we understand by Urdu nowadays
> was born after the last of effectual Mughals, Aurangzeb.

 So what are we to believe: was Urdu born before 700 AD, or in the 1800s ?

This is exactly what official historians do: first claim that Urdu is
derived from a Prakrit, then when data is shown proving that Urdu has
nothing in common with Prakrits, shout that that does not matter because
Urdu only formed after the fall of the Mughal Empire ! Then, when it is
shown that Urdu is older than the 19th century, claim once again that it
is a Prakrit and existed before the very rise of Islam !

  So we go around and around in a big circle. And why ? Somehow, one has
to prove, by any means whatsoever, that Urdu, Taj Mahal and Qutb Minar
have nothing to do with Mughals. Whether one places the date of origin of
Urdu before the Delhi Sultanate or after the Mughal Empire does not
matter. Any date for Urdu and Taj Mahal from 4000 BC to 2000 AD is
acceptable, but none between 700 AD-1857 AD. The Mughal Empire has to be
shown to be a Dark Age by any means.

> One script for one language is a creation of print technology.

 Ahh - so it was the evil Europeans who forced printing upon helpless
Indians which led to the usage of one script, one language, thereby
fuelling secessionism. I would like to see a single text where Tamil was
used to write Gujarati texts, or where Gujarati was used to write Telugu
verse. Any Nepali texts in Tamil script ?

> Urdu was never the language of the elite or the masses...

 So it arose before Muslims came, but somehow was not spoken by anybody
till the 19th century, when the British suddenly re-invented Urdu and
forced the Muslims to learn it.

> The sufis used it to create their syncretic expression for devotees of
> mostly the lower classes ...The westernised Urdu elite , not the lower
> middle class, now called the shots.

So, during the early Delhi Sultanate, Urdu was spoken by the "lower
classes" and not the elite. Towards the end of the Mughal Empire, it is
the evil elite which speaks Urdu, while the "lower class" Muslims
suddenly forget it and learn a Prakrit. Who spoke it in between
? "Neither the elite, nor the masses" - ie. it was somehow
forgotten by everybody. So Urdu arose both before 700 AD, and after 1800,
but did not exist in between.

Best wishes,
Samar




From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU  Fri Sep  1 05:16:59 2000
From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 15:16:59 +1000
Subject: interesting experience
In-Reply-To: <002201c012df$c5af9780$1790d2cc@StevieBaba>
Message-ID: <161227061264.23782.17918424179251373505.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Stephen,

In terms of written language, Urdu is written in the Arabic-Persian derived
Urdu script and Hindi is in the Indian devanagari script.

In terms of spoken language, Urdu descends from the Hindui or Hindi
Indo-Aryan regional vernacular of the Delhi-Meerut area.  Urdu has a lot of
Persian and Arabic vocabulary in addition to its native vocabulary.  Modern
standard Hindi is Urdu written in devanagari script with a lot of the
Arabic and Persian vocabulary replaced by Sanskrit loanwords.

namaste,
Richard Barz
ANU
Canberra

At 08:09 PM 8/30/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Friends;
>
>As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always
pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture.  This past
weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a
good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India)  I
was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of
learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in major
cities in the north.  His response was immediatly shocking to me.  He told
me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking hindi,
they are actually speaking Urduu.  This seems a bit of a rediculous claim
considering that none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an
arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any value to this claim?
Also, is this a reletively common claim?
>
>Namaskar
>
>Stephen J Brown
>University of Rochester.
>




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  1 17:18:25 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 17:18:25 +0000
Subject: Why we disagree? - Vivekananda
Message-ID: <161227061282.23782.15838674254765239133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I read Vivekananda's story about frogs in http://www.tamil.net.
The same story is told in the 7th century TEvAram poem.
The only change is that the conversation is between
turtles, not between sea- and well- frogs.

kUval Amai kuraikaTal Amaiyai
"kUvalOTu okkumO, kaTal?" en2Ral pOl,
pAvakArikaL pArppu aritu en2parAl -
tEvatEvan2 civan2 peruntan2maiyE.

Does this story also appear in Sankrit and Buddhist sources?
Or, did he hear it in Madras, at Bhaskara Sethupati's court,
from his friends like J.M. Nallasamy Pillai?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan


-----------------------------------

Why We Disagree - Swami Vivekanada 15th September 1893.

I will tell you a little story. You have heard the eloquent speaker
who has just finished say, 'Let us cease fro abusing each other,' and
he was very sorry that there should be always so much variance.

But I think I should tell you a story which would illustrate the cause
of this variance. A frog lived in a well. It had lived there for a
long time. It was born there and brought up there, and yet was a
little, small frog. Of course, the evolutionists were not there then
to tell us whether the frog lost its eyes or not, but, for our story's
sake, we must take it for granted that it had its eyes, and that it
every day cleansed the water of all the worms and bacilli that lived
in it with an energy that would do credit to our modern
bacteriologists. In this way it went on and became a little sleek
and fat. Well, one day another frog that lived in the sea came and
fell into the well.

'Where are you from?' 'I am from the sea.' 'The sea! How big is that?
Is it as big as my well?' and he took a leap from one side of the well
to the other. 'My friend,' said the frog of the sea, 'how do you
compare the sea with your little well?' Then the frog took another
leap and asked, 'Is your sea so big?' 'What nonsense you speak, to
compare the sea with your well!' 'Well then,' said the frog of the
well, 'nothing can be bigger than my well; there can be nothing bigger
than this; this fellow is a liar, so turn him out.'

That has been the difficulty all the while.

I am a Hindu, I am sitting in my own little well and thinking that
the whole world is my little well. The Christian sits in his little
well and thinks the whole world is his well. The Mohammedan sits in
his little well and thinks that is the whole world. I have to thank
you of America for this great attempt you are making to break down
the barriers of this little world of ours, and hope that, in the
future, the Lord will help you to accomplish your purpose.

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From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Fri Sep  1 22:28:57 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 18:28:57 -0400
Subject: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
Message-ID: <161227061284.23782.17992411118530813557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

SA> Ahh - so it was the evil Europeans who forced printing upon helpless
Indians which led to the usage of one script, one language, thereby fuelling
secessionism. I would like to see a single text where Tamil was used to
write Gujarati texts, or where Gujarati was used to write Telugu verse. Any
Nepali texts in Tamil script ?
RB> This is a dumb insinuation and question. Ofcourse assamese was not used
to write tamil and vice versa.
here is an example at any rate:
brahmi related scripts like khojki and and others were used for sindhi and
neighbouring languages, gurmukhi for punjabi etc arabic was also used for
the same languages as well as hindi and others I am sure with lower usage in
eastern or southern india.
By the way I learnt nagari but never learnt the bengali script per se, but
just picked up a book and started to read and found myself  fluent enough in
a day or so, since all we have really are a change of fonts. It helped that
I was a native speaker. But you could write bengali in nagari for all I
care, it would make no difference.
SA> So, during the early Delhi Sultanate, Urdu was spoken by the "lower
classes" and not the elite. Towards the end of the Mughal Empire, it is the
evil elite which speaks Urdu, while the "lower class" Muslims suddenly
forget it and learn a Prakrit.
RB> No it was spoken but not recognized as an elite language. The elite
language remained persian till aurangzeb's time when urdu came into its own.
SA> Most Hindus, even UP upper castes, do not understand the Modern Standard
Hindi. Instead, they speak the local Prakrit at home, and Hindustani when in
other states.
RB> Wow how could they not understand it but speak it when in other states.
What are you saying?
SA> Indeed, school Hindi is merely a Sanskritised form of Hindustani, which
is in turn derived from Urdu.
RB> This is completely ridiculous
Urdu is a basically an indic language with substituted persian vocabulary.
If urdu had an original morphology of its own. then it could have been like
persian or some sort of creole persian. However a good sentence in hndi is a
good sentence in bengali, gujju and tamil but not a good sentencein arabic
or persian. Dont even see what there is to argue here , this is so dumb..




From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG  Fri Sep  1 22:51:22 2000
From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 18:51:22 -0400
Subject: Hands Of Goddess Durga ?
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000083117283728@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061287.23782.1146808640520878651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

September 1, 2000

TO: Indology Discussion Group :

At our Hindu Temple located at Northern Virginia, I noticed that the image
of Goddess Durga has eight hands. The "bahan", lion is there, as in
Bengal, but the "ashur" emerging from a buffalo's body as Goddress Durga
is depicted in Bengal is missing in this image. This image of Goddess
Durga is typically worshipped in North India, UP/Bihar areas (I am told) ?

Goddess Durga in Bengal is always depicted with ten hands. Also, I
think, the depiction in Bengal is perhaps a celebration of triumph of good
over evil ?

Is it possible that this depiction came to Bengal via a migrating tribe who
came perhaps, from outside India long ago and who wanted to remember a
memorable battle somewhere (such for example as in Mahabharata?), possibly
outside of India through, their favorite deity, a Goddess of War ?

(two possible clues: I remember seeing a  photo  from an archeological
excavation at ancient Babylon which depicted a Goddess of War
with four hands. Also, I noticed in a National Geographic magazine
that area of present day Iraq where Babylon once was locted, still has
herds of wild water buffalos in the Euphrates River tributaries !).
As far as the Asian lion, even though there is none there in present
day Iraq or Iran, in earlier times, the Asian lion was rather prevalant
in that area I think ?)

Can anyone explain these two variations of Goddess Durga or comments
on possible link to ancient Babylon ?

Any discussions on this variations and where and when such
variations possibilities ?


Avi Dey
Coordinator,
Hindu Temple Library
Northern Virginia, USA

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 1 Sep 1972 18:51:22 -0400]




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Fri Sep  1 22:53:15 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 18:53:15 -0400
Subject: vowel shifts in mordern indian
Message-ID: <161227061289.23782.3035595801120616881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here is a snippet form a thread in another group.I was wondering if someone
with knowledge of comparitive indian grmmars can throw light on some of the
questions

GJ>It is just that the evidence for e/o is only indirect *as I said, it
substist before velars, because velar before the front vowels e palatalise).
RB>Just want to clear something. does the front vowel e change the preceding
stop or the following stop. In gneral, I can see either happening.
so does kek -> chek or kech or chech. I am thinking also of loch in scottish
and ich in german.
1) Historically is the final stop ever influenced by the preceding vowel.
In indian vernaculars we see even dentals changing to palatals satya->sach
(hindi) sachcha(spoken telugu) (fronting in ya colours the preceding
dental?). Whereas in bengali satya -> shotto retains a dental because of the
back vowels.
2) Ablaut,e/o reflexes could be detectable due to palatalization. Is this
indeed the case in sanskrit when it comes to grammatical variation on the
root.
3) Bengali is the only language I know which has undergone a backing of
vowels rather than fronting, are there other cases like this?
regards

RB




From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Sep  1 14:34:53 2000
From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 00 20:04:53 +0530
Subject: Gujarati in Tamil script (Was: interesting experience)
In-Reply-To: <s9af7aba.062@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227061278.23782.4453530462481566369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 09:49 AM 9/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
><< I would like to see a single text where Tamil was
>used to write Gujarati texts, ..>>
>
>Well, actually it was and is used to write Saurashtri, a form of
>Gujarati used by Gujarati brahmans who moved to the Tamil country many
>centuries ago.

not gujarati brahmans, but saurashtra hand-loom weavers who were brought to
Madurai by the legendary King Thirumala Naik (17th/18th century) for making
silk fabrics, since this expertise was lacking in his principality. These
weavers were once called 'Pattu nuul kaarar - persons who work with silk
yarn' in Tamil. These people adapted  a brahmin surname 'Iyer' as a means
to claim higher position in the caste hierarchy.Otherwise, they would have
been equated with native weavers, a low position in the then society.

It is true that they wrote their saurashtri documents in Tamil script.
Today they are very much tamilized.They are very much prevalent in Madurai,
KumbakooNam, Maanaamadurai and Salem. Many well-known personalities in
Tamilnadu have come from this august community.

With regards,
RM.Krishnan

>Allen Thrasher




From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Sep  2 15:04:29 2000
From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 00 11:04:29 -0400
Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0009021539030.1518-100000@hpc24.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227061297.23782.11206293071475335056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Certainly Mr Abbas seems another Rajaram on the other side,
I am amused by both the efforts.  Not clear how many followers
exist or are these just attempts..  On the other hand,
objective stirring does have merit.

So how does Urdu originate now? and what is the theory and span
of Mughalstan?  Are there other "..stans", like marthastan,
kalingastan, tamilstan?  What is the complete theory?
Are "...stans" separate or merge into one India nationhood?

Kindly illuminate..

BM


On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, Samar Abbas wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> > I am afraid that your critique of Bharat Gupt's Urdu history is not well
> > founded so far.
>
>  The purpose of my posts are to alert European indologists to the dangers
> of unconciously accepting official propaganda as `history'. All I can do
> is urge you to keep an open mind when dealing with these questions. Many
> Europeans specialising in Indus Valley, Sanskrit etc. unconciously accept
> official propaganda on areas in which they do not specialise: Saka,
> Mughal, Buddhist history etc. Please remember that `official' history in
> South Asia reflects 50 years of dominance by a particular race - under the
> veneer of `respectability' is a very chauvinist and racist ideology.
>
>  Also, the official history establishment here is highly corrupt and
> dishonest. Arun Shourie's book `Eminent Historians,' while lamenting that
> history is not chauvinist enough for him, does expose the corruption,
> nepotism and fraud practiced by the official establishment, barring a few
> isolated individuals. This establishment is writing history - so please
> keep an open mind about all areas of Indian history, which means
> questioning the fundamentals.
>
> > The oldest Urdu literature goes back to the 14th century and was
> > produced in the Deccan.
>
>   These ideas are based upon another `official' text-book theory: that
> Urdu actually developed in the Deccan. This hypothesis is used by official
> historians when the pre-Islamic and British-origin theories of Urdu are
> debunked. When the date is narrowed down to 700-1800, then it is only the
> geographical region which can now be shifted. Whatever one does, one has
> to shift the origin of Urdu outside the Delhi Sultanate - whether in time
> or in space does not matter as long as the purpose is solved.
>
>   However, there is another caveat with this theory: Marathi Prakrit, or
> perhaps Tamil, and not Braj, would then be the mother of Urdu.
>
> > We must assume that there was a "hatching period" before the first
> > preserved literature ...
>
>   This assumption is necessary in order to parry the counter that "Marathi
> cannot be the mother of Urdu".
>
>   So we now have a contorted babu-style theory: Urdu supposedly originated
> from a hypothetically existing Khari Boli (itself only attested by the
> 19th century), but this development itself must be `assumed' as it is not
> attested in the literary record. Then somehow, Urdu went southwards (again
> an unattested process), and then it is only here - and not in its homeland
> in the North - that Urdu literature was created. Then this Dakhini Urdu
> went back north (which invaders took it there, we are not told), and here
> somehow mutated back to the original Urdu derived from Khari Boli. I can
> only urge European Indologists to seriously question such official
> hypotheses. Prof Sachau himself did not accept any such theories [ see my
> previous posts].
>
> > Urdu is rooted in older Prakrits, but received influences from a
> > number of other "invading" languages.
>
>   Is it sensible to claim that Prakrit was spoken in the camps of Ghazni
> and Ghori ? Please look at the modern military camps of Afghanistan, which
> are the modern counterparts of Ghaznavi's and Ghori's camps. Is a Prakrit
> spoken there ? Are such people likely to adopt any if they conquer Delhi ?
>
>  Also, it could well be the other way around. It is always the invaders
> who imposed their langauge on others; only rarely was it vice verse. To
> assume that the likes of Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhamad Ghori smashed dozens
> of Hindu temples but somehow adopted Prakrits stretches the imagination.
>
> > The term "Urdu", BTW, comes from the Turkish word "Hordu" (ever heard
> > of the Golden Hord?), meaning military camp.
>
>   The question then becomes: which military camp ? The camps at Ghazni
> have been identified by Prof. Sachau as the home of Urdu and not camps in
> the Deccan or in Khari-Bolisthan. No Prakrits in Afghanistan in 900
> AD either.
>
> > When does urdu become "urdu"? When does the old Prakrit turn into a
> > distinct linguistic formation ?
>
>  The favorite Prakrit mother of Urdu, Khari Boli, does not have any
> literature from the period, which was mainly in Brij and Apabrahmsa. All
> earlier `Hindi' literature was in Braj, not in Khari Boli. Khari Boli was
> only used from the 19th century onwards, when it came to replace Braj as
> the main medium of Hindi literature. Khari Boli may well not have existed
> upto the 17th century as far as we know. To claim that this neglected and
> perhaps non-existent language somehow is the progenitor of Urdu is
> stretching the imagination.
>
> > But it is also true that the court language was Persian, the "French"
> > of South Asia ... [C]ompare the situation in Russia: Two
> > hundred years ago, Russian aristocrats hardly spoke Russian. Instead,
> > they used French, the language of culture and prestige !
>
>  A very good comparison. Usage of French by the Russian court does not
> mean that Russian did not exist at the time. Maybe Russian existed in folk
> literature, but exist it did. Claiming that Urdu did not exist because
> Mughal courts used Persian is akin to claiming that because French was
> used in Russian courts, Russian did not exist !
>
>  The situation could well have been the same here: Urdu folk literature
> spoken by the masses, Persian in the court.
>
>  Also, court language in Delhi was not always Persian: under Babar it was
> Chagatai Turkic, Arabic was also widely used, and perhaps the Lodis and
> Suris spoke Pashto. The development of a common link language would thus
> become more likely under such circumstances.
>
> Samar.
>




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Sat Sep  2 18:16:41 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 00 14:16:41 -0400
Subject: Hands Of Goddess Durga ?
Message-ID: <161227061300.23782.6140417776302348355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

tein>
Is it possible that this depiction came to Bengal via a migrating tribe who
came perhaps, from outside India long ago and who wanted to remember a
memorable battle somewhere (such for example as in Mahabharata?), possibly
outside of India through, their favorite deity, a Goddess of War ?
(two possible clues: I remember seeing a photo from an archeological
excavation at ancient Babylon which depicted a Goddess of War with four
hands. Also, I noticed in a National Geographic magazine that area of
present day Iraq where Babylon once was locted, still has herds of wild
water buffalos in the Euphrates River tributaries !). As far as the Asian
lion, even though there is none there in present day Iraq or Iran, in
earlier times, the Asian lion was rather prevalant in that area I think ?)
>
>
RB>
While a female godess of war could be west asian,anatolian. The buffalo has
to be an indic motif. Buffalo sacrifice are common in nepal etc. Buffalo in
iraq and middle east were introduced recently and are of indian river
buffalo stock. The wild buffalo in iraq must be feral buffalo and derivrd
from this. There are no wild buffalo anywhere in the worlds except a small
pockets in assam, MP and recently  a small herd in thailand was discovered.
Their genetic purity is in doubt.
>
>
I recall a harappan seal where a buffalo is being speared by a stick figure
infront of another seated figure wearing a buffalo horn head dress, usually
refered to as pashupati.
>
>
Is this an example of durga and her husband. or Maybe the seated figure is
mahIshAsura a real historical person and harappan ruler overseeing a buffalo
hunt. who knows..
http://www.harappa.com/indus/89.html
.
>
I remember another mesopotamian artefact from sumer aman is sitting on two
brahma bulls( uncommon in mesopotamia ) who has a crescent near his head and
has what may be streams of water flowing from his hand.
Isnt this similar to the shiva seated on nandi with river ganga streaming
from him and the crescent moon stuck in his hair.
>
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/khafajehbowl.jpg
>
These may be coincidences but, it is possible that mordern hinduism like a
living fossil preserves iconography, mythology and religious archetypes long
dead in other cultures.
>
regards RB




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sat Sep  2 10:07:15 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 00 15:37:15 +0530
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061291.23782.11763952266450722034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: "It is highly anachronistic to apply the
> notion of IQ to peoples who did not think of such a thing..."

  That intelligence is partly inherited was well-known to the ancients :
"Jewish success has depended on the evolution of a highly intelligent
group of people using eugenics...Europeans have...an average IQ of 103
versus the average Jewish IQ of 117"
                               - [ http://home.att.net/~nuenke/mac.htm ]
 So this is just another common thread between Europe and India.

Jon Skarpeid wrote: "The Jews do not form 5-10% of the population of
>Europe [e]ven before the Holocaust."

 Actually, Jews formed 13.76 % of total population in Poland, and
10.85% in Galicia, 4.40 % in Hungary, almost 4 % in Russia ca. 1900.
  -- [ http://metalab.unc.edu/yiddish/Book/Cohen/stat.htm ]
 So the previous comparison between Europe and India is not misplaced.

Samar




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sat Sep  2 11:54:13 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 00 17:24:13 +0530
Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <01C01349.516B49E0.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227061293.23782.15874248315930404736.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> I am afraid that your critique of Bharat Gupt's Urdu history is not well
> founded so far.

 The purpose of my posts are to alert European indologists to the dangers
of unconciously accepting official propaganda as `history'. All I can do
is urge you to keep an open mind when dealing with these questions. Many
Europeans specialising in Indus Valley, Sanskrit etc. unconciously accept
official propaganda on areas in which they do not specialise: Saka,
Mughal, Buddhist history etc. Please remember that `official' history in
South Asia reflects 50 years of dominance by a particular race - under the
veneer of `respectability' is a very chauvinist and racist ideology.

 Also, the official history establishment here is highly corrupt and
dishonest. Arun Shourie's book `Eminent Historians,' while lamenting that
history is not chauvinist enough for him, does expose the corruption,
nepotism and fraud practiced by the official establishment, barring a few
isolated individuals. This establishment is writing history - so please
keep an open mind about all areas of Indian history, which means
questioning the fundamentals.

> The oldest Urdu literature goes back to the 14th century and was
> produced in the Deccan.

  These ideas are based upon another `official' text-book theory: that
Urdu actually developed in the Deccan. This hypothesis is used by official
historians when the pre-Islamic and British-origin theories of Urdu are
debunked. When the date is narrowed down to 700-1800, then it is only the
geographical region which can now be shifted. Whatever one does, one has
to shift the origin of Urdu outside the Delhi Sultanate - whether in time
or in space does not matter as long as the purpose is solved.

  However, there is another caveat with this theory: Marathi Prakrit, or
perhaps Tamil, and not Braj, would then be the mother of Urdu.

> We must assume that there was a "hatching period" before the first
> preserved literature ...

  This assumption is necessary in order to parry the counter that "Marathi
cannot be the mother of Urdu".

  So we now have a contorted babu-style theory: Urdu supposedly originated
from a hypothetically existing Khari Boli (itself only attested by the
19th century), but this development itself must be `assumed' as it is not
attested in the literary record. Then somehow, Urdu went southwards (again
an unattested process), and then it is only here - and not in its homeland
in the North - that Urdu literature was created. Then this Dakhini Urdu
went back north (which invaders took it there, we are not told), and here
somehow mutated back to the original Urdu derived from Khari Boli. I can
only urge European Indologists to seriously question such official
hypotheses. Prof Sachau himself did not accept any such theories [ see my
previous posts].

> Urdu is rooted in older Prakrits, but received influences from a
> number of other "invading" languages.

  Is it sensible to claim that Prakrit was spoken in the camps of Ghazni
and Ghori ? Please look at the modern military camps of Afghanistan, which
are the modern counterparts of Ghaznavi's and Ghori's camps. Is a Prakrit
spoken there ? Are such people likely to adopt any if they conquer Delhi ?

 Also, it could well be the other way around. It is always the invaders
who imposed their langauge on others; only rarely was it vice verse. To
assume that the likes of Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhamad Ghori smashed dozens
of Hindu temples but somehow adopted Prakrits stretches the imagination.

> The term "Urdu", BTW, comes from the Turkish word "Hordu" (ever heard
> of the Golden Hord?), meaning military camp.

  The question then becomes: which military camp ? The camps at Ghazni
have been identified by Prof. Sachau as the home of Urdu and not camps in
the Deccan or in Khari-Bolisthan. No Prakrits in Afghanistan in 900
AD either.

> When does urdu become "urdu"? When does the old Prakrit turn into a
> distinct linguistic formation ?

 The favorite Prakrit mother of Urdu, Khari Boli, does not have any
literature from the period, which was mainly in Brij and Apabrahmsa. All
earlier `Hindi' literature was in Braj, not in Khari Boli. Khari Boli was
only used from the 19th century onwards, when it came to replace Braj as
the main medium of Hindi literature. Khari Boli may well not have existed
upto the 17th century as far as we know. To claim that this neglected and
perhaps non-existent language somehow is the progenitor of Urdu is
stretching the imagination.

> But it is also true that the court language was Persian, the "French"
> of South Asia ... [C]ompare the situation in Russia: Two
> hundred years ago, Russian aristocrats hardly spoke Russian. Instead,
> they used French, the language of culture and prestige !

 A very good comparison. Usage of French by the Russian court does not
mean that Russian did not exist at the time. Maybe Russian existed in folk
literature, but exist it did. Claiming that Urdu did not exist because
Mughal courts used Persian is akin to claiming that because French was
used in Russian courts, Russian did not exist !

 The situation could well have been the same here: Urdu folk literature
spoken by the masses, Persian in the court.

 Also, court language in Delhi was not always Persian: under Babar it was
Chagatai Turkic, Arabic was also widely used, and perhaps the Lodis and
Suris spoke Pashto. The development of a common link language would thus
become more likely under such circumstances.

Samar.




From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Sat Sep  2 22:07:25 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 00:07:25 +0200
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061306.23782.7908126468746513152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am Thu, 31 Aug 2000 schrieb nanda chandran:

>> You did not hear that from me.

> "Is it not a fact that there have been bloody wars all over South Asia
throughout all of its history, irrespective of what myth-makers have said
about 'spiritual' 'Vedic' tendencies etc.?"

Dear Nanda Chandran,

I have the following proposition. If you can show, with compelling logical
reasoning, that this quote from my previous message justifies your
complaint

<< Why is there this great effort to moralise everything? "Brahmins are
evil because they supported the caste system; Buddha was noble because he
opposed it". "Vedic civilization is evil because it encouraged wars; Buddhism is
noble because it opposed it". >>

(because this is why you quoted me, right? I.e. that I have written that
'Vedic civilisation' 'encourages war' etc.), and if you can also point out
the last time I wrote anything about Buddhism, and how this has anything at
all to do with what I was writing about -- then I will write again in this
thread. Is that a good deal? Otherwise, I think that I should not continue.

(Unless, of course, it may be worth the trouble in a very different way.
Sorry, but I still suffer from this odd idea that people who write to this
list are striving to exchange ideas that can stand rational scrutiny, *unless*
they try to brighten up our day with some sort of humour. I may have
misunderstood what you were doing. Please let us know whether you are joking and
want a bit of polemic just for fun.)



--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut fuer Indologie und Iranistik
Universitaet M?nchen
E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de

Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From wttun at YAHOO.COM  Sat Sep  2 23:41:12 2000
From: wttun at YAHOO.COM (Win Than Tun)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 00:41:12 +0100
Subject: Invoking the Earth
Message-ID: <161227061311.23782.17588237683619324289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear Indologists,
>I would like to know the custom of invoking the earth (vasumdhara) as
>witness by pouring water when donations are made.  As this custom is found
also in connection
>with the donations made to non-Buddhist religions in India, I think it
originated
>with Brahmanism.
>If possible, I would like to know its origin and the legend connected with
>this custom.  I would also like to know whether there are any sculpture or
>painting in India representing the Earth Goddess (Vasumdhara).
>Sincerely,
>Win Than Tun
>




From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Sat Sep  2 22:51:38 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 00:51:38 +0200
Subject: interesting experience
Message-ID: <161227061308.23782.4756212404286134175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Skipping over the expected communalisation / politicisation, returning to
Stephen Brown's original question and adding my two cents in an attempt at
further clarification:

> His response was immediatly shocking to me.  He
> told me at great length how though most people believe they are speaking
> hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu.

There is nothing shocking about it, since modern standard Hindi has Urdu
as its base (some of the most everyday words, even in highly Sanskritised
Hindi, are Persian or Arabic) and speakers apparently can rather freely choose
to what extent they Sanskritise or Persianise their vocabulary. There is no
strictly fixed dividing line between Hindi and Urdu. One 'Hindi' literary
journal of the Sahitya Akademi in Delhi prints Hindi translations of stories
and poems from other Indian languages, but of Urdu stories and poems no
'anuvaada', but a 'lipyantara' (change of script) is given. This should give you
an idea of how little difference there is between the two 'languages'. At
least one linguistic historian has compared Hindi to Esperanto, which I think
is going a bit too far; however, Hindi is not an entirely natural language,
but a to some extent forcibly Sanskritised version of Urdu. To what extent
there is any merit in this is a different matter, but it does explain the
peculiar relationship between Hindi and Urdu.

> is there any value to this
> claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim?

The claim is not at all common (for reasons as you can deduce from some of
the messages on this list), but there certainly is value to it. E.g., one
major means of popularising 'Hindi' is popular 'Bollywood' 'Hindi' cinema:
the naac-gaan movies. But if you try to translate the dialogues and songs, you
will discover that concise Hindi dictionaries fall short of giving you the
meanings of numerous words - which you will find in concise Urdu
dictionaries. Which raises the question (which is rhetorical: I don't want to read any
answers): what is the real language of Hindi movies?

--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut fuer Indologie und Iranistik
Universitaet M?nchen
E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de

Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET  Sun Sep  3 02:52:58 2000
From: xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET (Francis Parmar, S. J.)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 08:22:58 +0530
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061314.23782.8980034452294370818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I'm surprised to hear such an argument.  If the Constitution is not
honoured, change the Constitution!  If the law is not honoured, change the
law!  What guarantee is there that the new Constitution will be honoured?
The solution is not to change the Constitution but to make sure that it is
honoured.
Francis.




From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Sep  3 14:04:10 2000
From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 10:04:10 -0400
Subject: Hands Of Goddess Durga ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.720901181503.7533A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Message-ID: <161227061322.23782.18254627938370248352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My understanding is that the images are created
on interpretations of depictions in Devi Mahatmaya.
It's a function of saktis accumulated in the devi
to remove "evils".  Hands are needed to hold
the ayudha that sakti needs.

The ayudhas are ghanta, shULa, haLa, sankha, musaLa,
chakra, dhanu, sAyaka.  (from devi mahatmya, uttamacharita).

BM


On Fri, 1 Sep 1972, Tein Network wrote:

> September 1, 2000
>
> TO: Indology Discussion Group :
>
> At our Hindu Temple located at Northern Virginia, I noticed that the image
> of Goddess Durga has eight hands. The "bahan", lion is there, as in
> Bengal, but the "ashur" emerging from a buffalo's body as Goddress Durga
> is depicted in Bengal is missing in this image. This image of Goddess
> Durga is typically worshipped in North India, UP/Bihar areas (I am told) ?
>
> Goddess Durga in Bengal is always depicted with ten hands. Also, I
> think, the depiction in Bengal is perhaps a celebration of triumph of good
> over evil ?
>
> Is it possible that this depiction came to Bengal via a migrating tribe who
> came perhaps, from outside India long ago and who wanted to remember a
> memorable battle somewhere (such for example as in Mahabharata?), possibly
> outside of India through, their favorite deity, a Goddess of War ?
>
> (two possible clues: I remember seeing a  photo  from an archeological
> excavation at ancient Babylon which depicted a Goddess of War
> with four hands. Also, I noticed in a National Geographic magazine
> that area of present day Iraq where Babylon once was locted, still has
> herds of wild water buffalos in the Euphrates River tributaries !).
> As far as the Asian lion, even though there is none there in present
> day Iraq or Iran, in earlier times, the Asian lion was rather prevalant
> in that area I think ?)
>
> Can anyone explain these two variations of Goddess Durga or comments
> on possible link to ancient Babylon ?
>
> Any discussions on this variations and where and when such
> variations possibilities ?
>
>
> Avi Dey
> Coordinator,
> Hindu Temple Library
> Northern Virginia, USA
>




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Sep  3 11:08:07 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 11:08:07 +0000
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061320.23782.2493204168972974516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:


> - JANAPADA: The very word `Janapada' may be translated as `ethnic
> nation-state'; it proves the concept of European nation was general.


In his assertion that India like Europe is a conglomerate of nations
(and perhaps he also implies that it should be slit into 28to 36 sovereign
nations and then further following the European model should be made into
a the Indian (oops, South Asian) Continental Union, Samar Abbas has used
the above definition of Janapada.

May be some members on the list can help in providing references to JP
in ancient texts, Mahabharata onwards (or even earlier).
I do recall agents telling Rama about the 'pravaada' regarding Sita in Uttark,
or am I mistaken.

Then, are there any sociopolitical definitions of JP in Grihasutras and Smritis?
How do the Buddhist texts use the term ?

I know the Pancatantra reference, but that is very late and rather feudal.

Thanks in advance,

Bharat Gupt,  Associate Professor, Delhi University
PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052  INDIA
tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sun Sep  3 10:45:50 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 11:45:50 +0100
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061317.23782.3271302703061702678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Parmar:
                 Thank you very much for your comments -"
 "  .
          If the constitution is made by persons without full knowledge
then, do you think it is supposed to work ? What laws will you enforce, if
those appropriate laws are not there ? Who will enforce the law ? If the
criminals get into power, do you expect them to enforce the law by
themselves ?

               I do not know, how current you are with the nexus between
criminals and politicians ?  I was having discussions with a new lawyer
here in Canada, about the constitution , and the power sharing between
states, and the center . He said that if center takes over, and if they are
more corrupt or criminals of higher degree then, would it be the solution ?
My answer to that is - It is very easy in a country like India  to become a
leader of a gang who can control smaller areas like a state but, it would
be a great challenge to his skills to become a leader of all criminals from
different states which are very diverse group of people.
               So, let us not bury our heads in sand, and assume that every
thing is going perfect in India . It is an irony that when  one or few
states are going through the massive law and order problems, people of
other states remain indifferent . If this type of thing goes unchecked
then , it becomes a way of life . Any one can see the examples of
Colombia . The problem has become much bigger now . People are living on by
growing drugs . Changing their way of life would be difficult . Similar is
the situation in South East Asia like Burma, Laos , parts of pakistan, and
possibly in India.
                Once these criminals start governing states, such a type of
business is very lucrative . What appears to be a theoretical problem, will
become reality .

                Now, coming back to the type of constitution, what is
happening in some of the states in India, would not happen in Western
European countries or North American Countries. Human beings are all the
same but, these countries have gone through many types of problems, and
evolved over them . For example, when I was visiting San Francisco, the
history of crime there was so immense, that the worst crime infected states
in India would not come any where near that situation. But now, they have
things under far better control.
                  It happened in Quebec. Some people had kidnaped a
minister . Immediately, the Prime Minister invoked the War Measures Act,
and got hold of the control on the problems .
                  So, the sanctity of the constitution , a constitution
which was not right in the first place, does not mean a thing . Ultimately,
that action is right which is good for the masses, and not for the
criminals. Right now, the criminals have got into the ministries, have  got
all the police force to guard them against other gangs, and ordinary people
are left at the mercy of robbers, dacoits, and extorsionists .  If this is
what the constitution allows, I am not for it .

Regards,

Anand M. Sharan




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sun Sep  3 19:17:11 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 12:17:11 -0700
Subject: Earliest horse depiction
Message-ID: <161227061303.23782.7507249646360012033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What is the earliest uncontestable depiction of a horse in India?

Are they those from Bharut dating to the Sunga dynasty?  Were there any
horse figurines or other depictions found recently from earlier
cultures?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://www.jps.net/kabalen/vedicindia.html




From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sun Sep  3 11:04:19 2000
From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 13:04:19 +0200
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061319.23782.1344342157361657562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What concrete changes do you propose, which would better suit the Indian
context? Is the problem really the Indian Constitution? Are people really
complying with it in the first place?
    I cannot imagine that the Indian Constitution really allows all you
suggest in your final paragraph.

-- Arlo Griffiths

CNWS / Instituut Kern
Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA  Leiden
the Netherlands

tel.: +31-71-5272979


----------
>From: "Anand M. Sharan" <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Re: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
>Date: zon, 3 sep 2000 12:45 PM
>

> Dear Mr. Parmar:
>                  Thank you very much for your comments -"
>  "  .
>           If the constitution is made by persons without full knowledge
> then, do you think it is supposed to work ? What laws will you enforce, if
> those appropriate laws are not there ? Who will enforce the law ? If the
> criminals get into power, do you expect them to enforce the law by
> themselves ?
>
>                I do not know, how current you are with the nexus between
> criminals and politicians ?  I was having discussions with a new lawyer
> here in Canada, about the constitution , and the power sharing between
> states, and the center . He said that if center takes over, and if they are
> more corrupt or criminals of higher degree then, would it be the solution ?
> My answer to that is - It is very easy in a country like India  to become a
> leader of a gang who can control smaller areas like a state but, it would
> be a great challenge to his skills to become a leader of all criminals from
> different states which are very diverse group of people.
>                So, let us not bury our heads in sand, and assume that every
> thing is going perfect in India . It is an irony that when  one or few
> states are going through the massive law and order problems, people of
> other states remain indifferent . If this type of thing goes unchecked
> then , it becomes a way of life . Any one can see the examples of
> Colombia . The problem has become much bigger now . People are living on by
> growing drugs . Changing their way of life would be difficult . Similar is
> the situation in South East Asia like Burma, Laos , parts of pakistan, and
> possibly in India.
>                 Once these criminals start governing states, such a type of
> business is very lucrative . What appears to be a theoretical problem, will
> become reality .
>
>                 Now, coming back to the type of constitution, what is
> happening in some of the states in India, would not happen in Western
> European countries or North American Countries. Human beings are all the
> same but, these countries have gone through many types of problems, and
> evolved over them . For example, when I was visiting San Francisco, the
> history of crime there was so immense, that the worst crime infected states
> in India would not come any where near that situation. But now, they have
> things under far better control.
>                   It happened in Quebec. Some people had kidnaped a
> minister . Immediately, the Prime Minister invoked the War Measures Act,
> and got hold of the control on the problems .
>                   So, the sanctity of the constitution , a constitution
> which was not right in the first place, does not mean a thing . Ultimately,
> that action is right which is good for the masses, and not for the
> criminals. Right now, the criminals have got into the ministries, have  got
> all the police force to guard them against other gangs, and ordinary people
> are left at the mercy of robbers, dacoits, and extorsionists .  If this is
> what the constitution allows, I am not for it .
>
> Regards,
>
> Anand M. Sharan




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sun Sep  3 15:28:35 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 17:28:35 +0200
Subject: SV: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
Message-ID: <161227061324.23782.17294450440789754968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas [SMTP:abbas at IOPB.RES.IN] skrev 2. september 2000 13:54:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> > I am afraid that your critique of Bharat Gupt's Urdu history is not
well
> > founded so far.
>
>  The purpose of my posts are to alert European indologists to the dangers
> of unconciously accepting official propaganda as `history'. All I can do
> is urge you to keep an open mind when dealing with these questions.

I know it is a trend in Urdu-speaking circles to dissociate Urdu from Hindi
and other Indian languages. Like the Hindutva attempt to deny the fact that
the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages belong to separate families, this
trend among Urdu-speakers is in crass violation of all sound linguistic
knowledge. The arguments against the "alternative" theory you propose are
overwhelming, and no amount of "open-mindedness" will convince Western
linguists (or for that matter any competent linguist Western or otherwise)
that Urdu is not an Indian language derived from a Prakrit, filled up with
loan-words from Arabic and Persian. What you are presenting is essentially
another politicized academic non-starter.

Many
> Europeans specialising in Indus Valley, Sanskrit etc. unconciously accept
> official propaganda on areas in which they do not specialise: Saka,
> Mughal, Buddhist history etc. Please remember that `official' history in
> South Asia reflects 50 years of dominance by a particular race - under
the
> veneer of `respectability' is a very chauvinist and racist ideology.

It should have been quite clear by now that Western scholars are not that
eager to "take orders" from governments, Indian and otherwise. (Scholars
working inside dictatorship have a different situation.) Our views are
based on scholarly work, and we don't like to be told by politicians what
we should think and say. Nor are we that naive. We do not normally
"subconsciously" accept "official versions" of this or that. The arguments
concerning the Indianness of Urdu are chrystal clear, based on grammatical
structure, vocabulary etc. No competent linguist needs to be told what to
think.

>   So we now have a contorted babu-style theory: Urdu supposedly
originated
> from a hypothetically existing Khari Boli (itself only attested by the
> 19th century), but this development itself must be `assumed' as it is not
> attested in the literary record.

Noone on this list has mentioned such a theory. What we say, is that Urdu
has its roots in a Prakrit (not in Kharhi Boli). Are you responding to some
other hair-brained politicized theory with origins in the Hindutva
movement, or are you responding to what you perceive to be the standard
academic version of Urdu history?

>  Also, it could well be the other way around. It is always the invaders
> who imposed their langauge on others; only rarely was it vice verse.

This is positively wrong. Invaders do not always impose their language on
the conquered. They do so occasionally, but very often they "get lost" in
the masses of the conquered people. This happened to the Mongols that
conquered China - Kublai Khan spoke Chinese, not Mongol. This also happened
to the Norsemen who conquered Normandy: there French, not Norwegian is
spoken. What usually happens is that conquerors contribute with vocabulary
to the existing local language: just look at all the French in English,
vocabulary dumped by an invading French army that took control of England.
The same thing happened to that particular Prakrit that became Urdu.

To
> assume that the likes of Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhamad Ghori smashed dozens
> of Hindu temples but somehow adopted Prakrits stretches the imagination.

Noone assumes that. Their soldiers did.

> > The term "Urdu", BTW, comes from the Turkish word "Hordu" (ever heard
> > of the Golden Hord?), meaning military camp.
>
>   The question then becomes: which military camp ? The camps at Ghazni
> have been identified by Prof. Sachau as the home of Urdu and not camps in
> the Deccan or in Khari-Bolisthan. No Prakrits in Afghanistan in 900
> AD either.

I have not seen Prof. Sachau's work, but this would only be correct if we
assume that there was a large contingent of Prakrit speakers in Ghazni. The
point is that the history of Urdu is judged on the basis of linguistic
criteria. Other criteria are secondary. There were no Prakrits in
Afghanistan as you say, consequently Urdu must have arisen in India where
related dialects are found. I will therefore assume that Prof. Sachau has
no case until I have seen a few nifty arguments from him in support of his
theory.

>  Also, court language in Delhi was not always Persian: under Babar it was
> Chagatai Turkic, Arabic was also widely used, and perhaps the Lodis and
> Suris spoke Pashto. The development of a common link language would thus
> become more likely under such circumstances.

It is true that the first Moghuls that arrived in India, used Turkic, but
Persian was the language used by most of the Moghul courts. In a Muslim
court milieu, it is self-evident that Arabic was in use to some extent, but
Persian was the main language of culture.

Best regards,

Lars Martin

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Sep  3 19:14:51 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 19:14:51 +0000
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061328.23782.17097715118185684773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:

>Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: "It is highly anachronistic to apply the
> > notion of IQ to peoples who did not think of such a thing..."
>
>   That intelligence is partly inherited was well-known to the ancients :
>"Jewish success has depended on the evolution of a highly intelligent
>group of people using eugenics...Europeans have...an average IQ of 103
>versus the average Jewish IQ of 117"
>                                - [ http://home.att.net/~nuenke/mac.htm ]
>  So this is just another common thread between Europe and India.

Mr. Abbas,

You share company with people who are possibly worse than the authors of The
Bell Curve. The website you quote above is from someone whose "mission" is
to "breed an improved human species through purposefully directed
evolution." In short, eugenics, now touted as a "scientific" and "secular"
way out of cultural and political problems in the world. Exactly how this
"breeding" is to be done is unspecified. Apparently, mankind never learns
from its past. And apparently, people without training in the bio-sciences
are not aware of how many scientists are totally against eugenetic twists of
genetic research.

Anyway, your argument remains anachronistic. That some contemporary
ignoramus has opinions identical to yours does not make your argument valid.
Moreover, by any standard of contemporary measurement of material and
economic success, Europeans with their lower average IQ have done as well
as, or even better than, the higher IQ Jews. It is not as if European Jews
dominated the European renaissance and the industrial revolution and the
explosion of scientific research in the last 500 years or more.

Do you realize what your stand implies, for India and for Brahmins, who
apparently have "higher IQ, as a result of genetic inheritance"? And would
you care to extend your argument to the contemporary Muslim and Christian
Arabic neighbours of the Jewish nation? Europe is no longer important for
Jewish culture. Israel and USA are the societies you need to apply your
argument to.

Vidyasankar

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From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sun Sep  3 18:18:17 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 19:18:17 +0100
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061326.23782.4459856433548739553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Griffith:




From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Sun Sep  3 19:44:47 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 00 21:44:47 +0200
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061331.23782.12132867984446142938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Samar Abbas wrote:
>
> >Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: "It is highly anachronistic to apply the
> > > notion of IQ to peoples who did not think of such a thing..."
> >
> >   That intelligence is partly inherited was well-known to the ancients
> :
> >"Jewish success has depended on the evolution of a highly intelligent
> >group of people using eugenics...Europeans have...an average IQ of 103
> >versus the average Jewish IQ of 117"
> >                                - [ http://home.att.net/~nuenke/mac.htm
> ]
> >  So this is just another common thread between Europe and India.
>
> [...]

Perhaps it is worth noting here that the IQ, as several psychological and
anthropological researchers have pointed out (cf., e.g., a Penguin book with
a dozen essays that appeared approx. 30 years titled _Race, Culture and
Intelligence_), stresses certain kinds of mental abilities, and that too in a
way that is very modernly Western (with an emphasis, e.g., on certain verbal
skills). The authors argue that a person from outside the contemporary West,
who has not had a modern Western-type education, is destined to score not
too well (as would also have been the case with Westerners in previous
centuries). So perhaps we should not lay too much stress on those numbers called
'IQ'.

--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik
Universit?t M?nchen
E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de

Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From sivabgs at YAHOO.COM  Mon Sep  4 04:31:39 2000
From: sivabgs at YAHOO.COM (Ganapathi .)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 05:31:39 +0100
Subject: kanchi Shankara Mutt
Message-ID: <161227061333.23782.1984098197677779868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I read the article written by Sri Vidyasankar ?Real History Of Kanchi Math
(Re:Former President Inaugurates
)Celebrations? in the alt.hindu Newsgroup.
This article was written on the major issues covered in  ?The weekly cover
story? of the Illustrated weekly Of India (Sept.13,1987) ?K.P.Sunil.

Page 3 and 4 of the article (Real History Of
.) give  the following
information
.

? Historians, however, hold that the Kumbhakonam math was in verity a
branch of the Sringeri math established in 1821 AD by the famous monarch of
Tanjore, Serfoji. (Mr.Sunil has a fact wrong here.The monarch of Tanjore in
1821 was not Serfoji but his son Prathap singh Thuljaji.The date 1821 is
correct.-it is the date of the oldest inscription found in the Kumbhakonam
Math building.) Later the war broke out between the kings of  Tanjore and
Mysore, the Kumbhakonam Math proclaimed independence from Sringeri and
established  itself as the Kamakoti Peetam.?(there is no war documented
between the Maratha rulers of Tanjore and the Wodeyars of Mysore after the
1821.By this time, both were more or less puppets of the British. That the
Kumbakonam math proclaimed independence from Sringeri however is a fact
)

Mr.Sunil captures the major facts regarding the Kanchi Math correctly
though. Briefly,

1.A branch of the Sringeri math was established in Kumbakonam, the building
for which was constructed in 1821 AD, with the help of the Tanjore king

2.The Kumbakonam math soon proclaimed independence from Sringeri

3(2)Thus the kanchi math as an institution dates from 1842 AD
..?

htpp://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1994/msg00539.html

The findings of the author in the said article made me to look out for more
fine points on the subject. Therefore a discussion was initiated in the
indology group.

Sri Vidyasankar wrote..(23.08.2000) ?
As an inscription dated 1821 is found
in Kumbakonam, it stands to reason that there must have been a matha there
for a few decades before that date. I don?t think that people and
institutions suddenly come into being , on the date of the first available
written record
The question that causes the biggest controversy is whether
the said matha came to Kumbakonam in the first place and if so, when. That
is still to be addressed?.

1.The  inscriptions relating to 1800 AD clearly mention the name of the
Math as the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam and the modi documents of 18th and 19th
century also do refer the institution as the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam and the
Peetadhipathi as the Shankaracharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam.  Therefore
the existence of Kanchi Shankara Math at Kumbakonam  during this period is
proved beyond doubt.

2.The Kumbakonam Shankara Mutt inscription, according to Sri Vidyasankar
relates to 1821 AD.According to him the then ruler of Tanjore during this
period was not Serfoji  but his son prathap singh Thuljaji.


Ekoji I      1676-1684
Shaji       1684-1711
Serfoji I           1711-1729
Thukoji             1729-1735
EkojiII             1735-1736
Sujan bhayee        1736-1738
Kattu raja          1738-1739
Prathapa Simhan     1739-1763
Thulaja             1763-1787
Amarsingh           1787-1798
Serfoji II          1798-1832
Sivaji              1832-1855

>???From the above  genealogy list, we can infer  that the monarch was only
Serfoji II . Sivaji II was the son of Serfoji II and not Prathapa Singh
Thulajaji as given by Sri.Vidyasankar.

3.The date of this marathi  inscription was the 10th Feb.1822. According to
this inscription Raja Sri Chathrapathi Serfoji Maharaja built the Temple of
Chandramouleeswara (Chandramouleeswara Griham) in the Math.

4.Vidyasankar wrote.(27.08.2000)?
That there was a Shankaracharya
associated with Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam in the 19th Century does not require
much proof. Around the 1700?s is the crucial time period for which one
needs information.As for as one can make out from your mails, the modi
documents do not cover this?.

The object of this interaction is to share the views on the issue whether
the Kanchi shankara Math has any historical evidence to prove its existence
at Kumbhakonam prior to 1820s as an independent Math. When some one has
been repeatedly saying that the Kanchi math is an institution dating from
1842 AD, the Math had proclaimed independence from Sringeri etc., it is
essential to take into account all the material available during this
period. Therefore, the Kumbakonam inscriptions and Modi Documents (which
cover a period of more than hundred years) shall not be rejected with out
assigning any reasons.

5.The Letter written to SivajiII contains information about the shifting of
Kanchi Math head quarters from Kanchipuram to Kumbakonam during the period
of Raja Prathapa Simhan. There are also records in connction with the Vyasa
pooja Offerings made to the kanchi Kamakoti Peetadhipathi during the
1760s.(Sri VidyaSankar might have the curiosity of  discovering more info.
from the 1700s. But  this can not reduce the importance of the documents
shown in support of my contention that the Kanchi Math had come to
Kumbhakonam during the period of Raja Prathapa simhan only as an
independent Kanchi Math and it is highly ridiculous to claim it as a sub
math of  Sringeri).

6. It was also mentioned in one of my earlier postings that the Tanjore
Kings had extended their patronage to various other maths. Sringeri Math
had not been referred in any of these Documents. Hence the tentative
assumptions that a branch of the Sringeri math was established in
Kumbakonam, the building for which was constructed in 1821 AD, with the
help of the Tanjore king  etc., are not backed by any proof.

BGS


01.Saraswathi Mahal Library Pub. No.46 (1990)

BHONSLE VAMSA CHARAITHRA

-being the marathi historical Inscription in the Big Temple Tanjore on the
History of Maratha Rajas of Tanjore. Translated by Sri.V.Srinivasa Murthy &
S.Gopalan

Page.. 83-87

02.Tamil University Pub. No.151 (1992)

KUMBHESWARAR KOYILUM MAHAMAKHA THIRUVIZHAVUM

Pulavar K.M.Muthu Samy Pillai

Page..41 & 42

03. Saraswathi Mahal Publication No.312 (1990)
MAAMANNAR  SERFOJI
Edited by; M.Sadasivam, Director, TMSSM Library
Article: MAAMAANAR SERFOJIYIN SAADHANAIGALUM SAMAYA PANIGALUM
By: Sri Rajaram Raja Saaheb Chathrapathi, Senior Prince, Tanjore
Page..48 & 58


04.Tamil University Pub. (1984)

Administration and Social Life under the Maratha Rulers of Thanjavur

Prof.K.M.Venkataramiah
Page..21 & 22, 432-436, 500 & 501.


05.Saraswathi Mahal Library Pub.No.409 (1999)

MODI  DOCUMENTS IN THE SARASWATHI MAHAL LIBRARY- VOL ?I

Edited and Translated by Dr.R.Vivekananda Gopal, Modi Expert, Tanjore

Page.. viii, Section III ?1-12.


06.Tamil University Pub.No.71  (1987)

INSCRIPTIONS OF THE MARATHAS OF THANJAVUR

Pulavar Se.Raasu,

Page 158 & 159.




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  4 06:58:57 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 06:58:57 +0000
Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 2 Sep 2000 to 3 Sep 2000 (#2000-129)
Message-ID: <161227061337.23782.14739712150342456035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>(because this is why you quoted me, right? I.e. that I have written that
>'Vedic civilisation' 'encourages war' etc.), and if you can also point out
>the last time I wrote anything about Buddhism, and how this has anything at
>all to do with what I was writing about -- then I will write again in this
>thread. Is that a good deal? Otherwise, I think that I should not continue.

That the brahmanic ideal was spiritual, is something that I just said in
the passing. But you blew up that particular point and went into the
- spiritual east vs materialistic west, Vivekananda myth, religious
propoganda etc - mode. Was that justified? The same is the case with
comparing India with Europe.

And yet you accuse me of indulging in polemics for fun!

Though you didn't explicitly mention Buddhism, the tone of the argument
is pretty typical of Euro centric/leftist interpreters of Indian history
who try to glorify Buddhism at the expense of Vedic Hinduism. And the
comparison between Buddhism and Hinduism, I'd also presented it in quotes,
which obviously wasn't from your post. It was only a general reference to an
attitude so typical of some biased historians. If you do not want others to
mistake you as part of this clique, then you should be careful about what
you write. If you are so, then there'll be little need for your imagination
run riot about people trying to accuse you of something that you didn't say.

>Please let us know whether you are joking and want a bit of polemic just
>for fun.

Maybe you could answer it for me.




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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  4 07:02:27 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 07:02:27 +0000
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061340.23782.13607549091460278977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

schrieb Robert Zydenbos :

>(because this is why you quoted me, right? I.e. that I have written that
>'Vedic civilisation' 'encourages war' etc.), and if you can also point out
>the last time I wrote anything about Buddhism, and how this has anything at
>all to do with what I was writing about -- then I will write again in this
>thread. Is that a good deal? Otherwise, I think that I should not continue.

That the brahmanic ideal was spiritual, is something that I just said in
the passing. But you blew up that particular point and went into the
- spiritual east vs materialistic west, Vivekananda myth, religious
propoganda etc - mode. Was that justified? The same is the case with
comparing India with Europe.

And yet you accuse me of indulging in polemics for fun!

Though you didn't explicitly mention Buddhism, the tone of the argument
is pretty typical of Euro centric/leftist interpreters of Indian history
who try to glorify Buddhism at the expense of Vedic Hinduism. And the
comparison between Buddhism and Hinduism, I'd also presented it in quotes,
which obviously wasn't from your post. It was only a general reference to an
attitude so typical of some biased historians. So there's little need for
your imagination run riot about people trying to accuse you of something
that you didn't say. If you do not want others to mistake you as part of
this clique, then you should be careful about what you write.

>Please let us know whether you are joking and want a bit of polemic just
>for fun.

Maybe you could answer it for me.




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From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Mon Sep  4 09:13:23 2000
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 10:13:23 +0100
Subject: interesting experience
Message-ID: <161227061342.23782.1812303632860144293.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 30 Aug 2000, Stephen J Brown wrote:

> none of the hindi liturature i have seen displays an arabic alphabet.

As a footnote, there is some historical information about the representation of
Perso-Arabic characters in Devanagari and Bengali at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stone_catend/tr8.htm

------------
> As an amatuer indologist (and now a laboring sanskrit student) i always
> pay close attention to all my encounters with Indian culture.  This past
> weekend i was at my local convenience store where the clerk has become a
> good aquaintence over the past year.( he was born and raised in India)
> I was telling him of my travel plans for this fall and my intention of
> learning rudimentary hindi so that i could communicate better when in
> major cities in the north.  His response was immediatly shocking to me.
> He told me at great length how though most people believe they are
> speaking hindi, they are actually speaking Urduu.  This seems a bit of a
> rediculous claim considering that none of the hindi liturature i have
> seen displays an arabic alphabet. so my question is this: is there any
> value to this claim? Also, is this a reletively common claim?

Regards,   Tony Stone
Dr Anthony P. Stone




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Mon Sep  4 04:48:23 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 10:18:23 +0530
Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <39AEE61E.5316@del3.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227061335.23782.4100441047122421837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Bharat Gupt wrote: "[After] invading Ghaznavite
> [&] Turkish hordes settled in India they took to Indian women and their
> progeny could not have spoken anything else but the synchronic
> language/dialect of the Indian region laden with persian-arabic words.

 Whilst this argument is partly correct, it holds with more force for the
Aryans (soft AIT is official). The invading Aryans also had a shortage of
women, partly due to female infanticide, sati and the need to preserve a
larger fighting male population. So they also took to Dravidian women (a
custom which survives in the devadasi & Kerala sambandham), and their
mulatto progeny would, as per the above argument, have to be Dravidian
speakers. Then there would be no IA languages in India, and everybody
would be a Dravidian speaker.

  Yet, official history claims that somehow, the Aryans kept their IA
languages while the Mughals did not. That despite the fact that the Aryans
did not possess writing (and hence preservation of their original IA
dialects would have been more difficult) and were at a lower
civilizational level than their Dravidian predecessors, whilst the Mughals
did possess writing (so preservation of their language would have been
more likely) and were at an equal, some say, higher civilizational level
than their predessessors, the Sakas, Greeks and Aryans.

  It logically follows that either both the Aryans and Turks lost their
languages, or both kept their languages. Indeed, the Aryans were more
likely to lose their language than the Turks. Yet, official history claims
just the opposite. Once again, a certain subtle double standard at work.

> (This of course is different from the Pakistani official version that
> the Arabs, Turks etc., "gave" a new tongue Urdu to the subcontinent
> and which did not "develop" in India.

 Incidentally, the Indian version mirrors this, holding that the invading
Aryans "gave" new Indo-Aryan languages to the subcontinent while somehow
the Mughals, under more favourable circumstances, lost theirs. If and when
an Eelam arises, no doubt history there will teach that IA is derived from
Dravidian. Perhaps, schools in Tamil Nadu already teach this. So we
would have three versions.

  BTW there are websites claiming that Sanskrit is derived from Tamil
(please check archives). This Tamil view of Sanskrit is akin to the
official Sanskritist view of Urdu, all one has to do is replace `IA' for
`Urdu' to go from one theory to the other. Yet Sanskritists vehemently
deny any Dravidian origin for Sanskrit whilst brazenly putting forth just
such a theory for Urdu.

 I can accept this Prakrit origin theory of Urdu, but then would be forced
by logic to accept the Dravidian origin of these same Prakrits, thereby
leading to the conclusion that Urdu is derived from Old Tamil. So, to
conclude this discussion, I will only accept either of two logically
self-consistent theories for the origin of Urdu: 1. It is derived from
Tamil, 2. It is derived from Ghaznavid Persian.

> Also consider the fact that with the huge influx of Indian slaves
> (more women and children then men) in Afghani and Iranian markets,
> some degree of linguistic, musical, sartorial and culinary impact must
> have taken place in the Ottoman Empire and its sorroundings.

 This is a good idea. Most research on such topics concentrates on the
impact of India on Arab culture (the diffusion of mathematical knowledge,
zero, etc.), and not upon the much nearer Persian and Turkic cultures.
However, I can recount the following instances :
- Tamerlane is said to have built a mosque in Samarkand which was modelled
  on Indian architecture.
- The Kalila wa Dimnah (based on the Pancatantra) was popular in
  the Ottoman Empire. Of course there are chess and Al-Beruni.
- Gujarati businessmen dominated the Kabul market in the 18th century.
- Mahmud-e-Ghazni was impressed with Indian architecture, and modelled
  palaces/mosques on it. None survive, however.
- The Rumi darwaza in Lucknow was used for trade to Rum (Ottoman Empire)
  and it is said a single long road connected Delhi and Lucknow to
  Istanbul.Of course, in those days, travel would have been much easier.
- Maratha title Peshwa is derived from Turkic Pasha or vice versa.

Regards,
Samar




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep  4 14:17:49 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 15:17:49 +0100
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061344.23782.4421312241010127003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr. Griffith:
                   I would propose that the Federal Government ( called the
Central Government ) should be able to intervene with whatever force it
feels necessary to protect the basic human rights of people - right to
live; right that they not be subjected to extorsion, or failing to pay the
demand - be murdered ; women not be raped and murdered and their naked body
left in a garage  or no parallel courts exist within the country of India
where trial is held by gangs and people get executed , and so on. Such is
the condition of this great India to-day .

                What is preventing this Central Government from acting - it
is the sacred cow called the constitution . The Prime Minister of India
makes statement in Parliament that his party does not have the strength to
uphold the President's Rule, which means direct Central Rule. Even the
former Prime Minister Mr Gujral is not free from this episode where the
balme ought to be go on him too. He removed the chief of the Central Bureau
of Investigation who was trying to correct the problem . Mr. Gujral stood
from the city where all or most of these things are happening . Now ,
seeing the problems, and concern about his association with criminals, he
has left and gone to Punjab , to avoid all of these embarassment .

              People are being beaten up and being subjected to extorsion,
even in jails . What can you say about the state government .




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Sep  4 22:34:48 2000
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 15:34:48 -0700
Subject: SV: Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <01C015CC.88CCAAC0.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227061357.23782.10963467868980722859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 05:28 PM 09/03/2000 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

>spoken. What usually happens is that conquerors contribute with vocabulary
>to the existing local language: just look at all the French in English,

Or, maybe more to the point, all the Arabic words in Spanish.  Many Spanish
words that begin with "al" are Arabic imports that preserved the
Arabic article:

alfiler
alfombra
almacen
alcazar
almohada
albondiga
alberca
...etc.

Plus other common words such as "ojala, ("hopefully," "I hope so") which
originally means "Allah willing."

LMF:
>vocabulary dumped by an invading French army that took control of England.

In the case of Spanish, by the invading Moors that controlled most of
modern-day Spain for centuries.

LMF:
>The same thing happened to that particular Prakrit that became Urdu.

Mozarabic, the archaic Spanish spoken for centuries in the areas under
Muslim domination, had many Arabic words but preserved its Romance (Vulgar
Latin) grammar and sound system, just like Urdu preserved its Indo-Aryan
ones.  After the expulsion of the Moors from Spain in the 15th c. Spanish
became increasingly latinized, just as after partition Hindi became more
sanskritized and Urdu more arabicized and persianized.

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Sep  4 15:12:18 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 16:12:18 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061346.23782.9725833540339820580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A footnote in J.P. Mallory (In search of the Indo-Europeans) says that Anna
Davies carried out a cursory examination of the Greek vocabulary, which
revealed that less than 40 per cent of it could be ascribed a transparent
Indo-European etymology, 8 per cent had established non-Greek origins and
about 52 per cent had no clear etymology.

This is a footnote to the statement that "Yet the linguistic evidence taken
as a whole does indicate that the Greeks did borrow a considerable number of
elements from a non-Greek language."

The question is -- what is the equivalent statistic for Vedic Sanskrit ?

Thank you,
-arun gupta




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  4 17:21:59 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 17:21:59 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061355.23782.17678248276702016308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
A footnote in J.P. Mallory (In search of the Indo-Europeans) says
that Anna Davies carried out a cursory examination of the Greek
vocabulary, which revealed that less than 40 per cent of it could
be ascribed a transparent Indo-European etymology, 8 per cent had
established non-Greek origins and about 52 per cent had no clear
etymology.

This is a footnote to the statement that "Yet the linguistic
evidence taken as a whole does indicate that the Greeks did borrow
a considerable number of elements from a non-Greek language."

The question is -- what is the equivalent statistic for
Vedic Sanskrit ?
>>>

Isn't the bronze age Greek culture (Minoan Crete) a non-IE one?
Interesting that even though the IE spread all over the world,
the earliest IE literatures recorded (Greece and Vedic) are from
regions where great non-IE cultures (IVC, for example) flourished
before the IE intrusion.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Mon Sep  4 15:39:56 2000
From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 17:39:56 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061348.23782.10462463187817190936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For the Rig-Vedic statistics, cf. the (conservative) count in F.B.J. Kuiper,
"Aryans in the Rigveda" (Amsterdam-Atlanta, 1991), p. 95f.: "One will
therefore be on the safe side when stating that at least 5 per cent of the
Rigvedic lexemes (stricto sensu) is of foreign origin."

In Indo-Iranian Journal 38 (1995), p. 261, Kuiper was able to present a more
exact figure: "We owe it to the computer that it is now known. A Dr.
Alexander Lubotsky kindly informs me, the sum total [of Rigvedic lexemes -
AG] is 100063. The percentage of the foreign  works [sic, read: words]
listed there [in Kuiper 1991] is not, accordingly, ``at least five per
cent'' ..., but 3.8 per cent. If only `words sensu stricto' were counted (As
in Aryans, p. 95), the percentage might be well over 4 per cent."

As far as I know, no figures are known for post-RV texts, but they will
doubtless be considerably higher than the figure for the RV.


-- Arlo Griffiths

CNWS / Instituut Kern
Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA  Leiden
the Netherlands

tel.: +31-71-5272979


----------
>From: Arun Gupta <suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
>Date: maa, 4 sep 2000 5:12 PM
>

> A footnote in J.P. Mallory (In search of the Indo-Europeans) says that Anna
> Davies carried out a cursory examination of the Greek vocabulary, which
> revealed that less than 40 per cent of it could be ascribed a transparent
> Indo-European etymology, 8 per cent had established non-Greek origins and
> about 52 per cent had no clear etymology.
>
> This is a footnote to the statement that "Yet the linguistic evidence taken
> as a whole does indicate that the Greeks did borrow a considerable number of
> elements from a non-Greek language."
>
> The question is -- what is the equivalent statistic for Vedic Sanskrit ?
>
> Thank you,
> -arun gupta




From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Mon Sep  4 16:50:07 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 18:50:07 +0200
Subject: History of Mughalstan (or so it was)
Message-ID: <161227061350.23782.10250977877967591104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am Mon, 4 Sep 2000 schrieb nanda chandran:

> schrieb Robert Zydenbos :
> [...]
> That the brahmanic ideal was spiritual, is something that I just said in
> the passing. But you blew up that particular point and went into the
> - spiritual east vs materialistic west, Vivekananda myth, religious
> propoganda etc - mode. Was that justified? The same is the case with
> comparing India with Europe.

Perhaps you should consider the following: if you do not want anyone to
read and respond to something you write, then it may be better not to write.

> Though you didn't explicitly mention Buddhism, the tone of the argument
> is pretty typical of Euro centric/leftist interpreters of Indian history
> who try to glorify Buddhism at the expense of Vedic Hinduism. And the
> comparison between Buddhism and Hinduism, I'd also presented it in
> quotes,
> which obviously wasn't from your post. It was only a general reference
> to an
> attitude so typical of some biased historians. So there's little need
> for
> your imagination run riot about people trying to accuse you of something
> that you didn't say. If you do not want others to mistake you as part of
> this clique, then you should be careful about what you write.

We have seen a good many amateuristic and unreasonable things on this list
in the past years, but this looks like a special case: something like an
attempt at a methodological justification of unreasonableness. No one (also
not I) can be held responsible for whatever weird ideas others impute to them,
and no one can reckon with the randomness of prejudice / eccentricity etc.
which some persons in the reading public may come up with. To defend oneself
in advance against all possible unforeseen imputations is plainly
impossible, and nobody should expect it. In future, please just see what others
write, instead of imagining what they might write, or what you would want them to
write, etc.

> >Please let us know whether you are joking and want a bit of polemic
> just
> >for fun.
>
> Maybe you could answer it for me.

Does this mean that you cannot answer by yourself? All right, after
reading your previous message: yes, you _are_ doing it just for the fun of the
polemic.

RZ

--
Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep  4 22:41:13 2000
From: balakrishnanraju at HOTMAIL.COM (balakrishnan raju)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 22:41:13 +0000
Subject: e.mail address
Message-ID: <161227061353.23782.9718521559485803090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology members,
I am trying to get the e.mail address of J.Mckim Malville or of
R.N.Swaminathan who have jointly written an article entitled, " People,
Planets, and the Sun: Surya Puja in Tamilnadu;South India". Can any one
help?
Thank you all
Regards
R.Balakrishnan
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From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Mon Sep  4 23:53:29 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 00:53:29 +0100
Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
Message-ID: <161227061360.23782.2723434174134452411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN> wrote:

> I can accept this Prakrit origin theory of Urdu, but then would be forced
>by logic to accept the Dravidian origin of these same Prakrits, thereby
>leading to the conclusion that Urdu is derived from Old Tamil. So, to
>conclude this discussion, I will only accept either of two logically
>self-consistent theories for the origin of Urdu: 1. It is derived from
>Tamil, 2. It is derived from Ghaznavid Persian.

Have you seen samples of old Urdu? Can you derive an Urdu verb
(find one) from Persian?

>> Also consider the fact that with the huge influx of Indian slaves
>> (more women and children then men) in Afghani and Iranian markets,
>> some degree of linguistic, musical, sartorial and culinary impact must
>> have taken place in the Ottoman Empire and its sorroundings.

The Gypsies of Europe are the decendants of those slaves.

>- The Kalila wa Dimnah (based on the Pancatantra) was popular in
>  the Ottoman Empire. Of course there are chess and Al-Beruni.

Tasbih or bead-string came from India too. Arabic numerals too.

>- Gujarati businessmen dominated the Kabul market in the 18th century.

Where is this information from? The Khatris (from Punjab) dominated
the Kabul (and other cities in central Asia) markets until recently.

>- Mahmud-e-Ghazni was impressed with Indian architecture, and modelled
>  palaces/mosques on it. None survive, however.

If he was impressed by Indian architecture, he had a way of expressing
it by plunder and destruction, as Al Biruni writes.

I think Indians (including Muslims in the subcontinent) should not
not forgive him. One must give him credit that he had in his court
Al Beruni and Ferdowsi (one a student of Hindu sciences, other a
recorder of Pre-Islamic history of Persia), although unhappily.
Certianly no hero to Hindus, he shouldn't be one to Indian
Muslims either.

Yashwant




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Sep  5 00:21:45 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 01:21:45 +0100
Subject: Urdu/hindi
Message-ID: <161227061362.23782.16548541367912434296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

May I present examples of what is considered to to be
the work of the oldest "Urdu" poet, Amir Khusro Dehlavi
(1253-1325 AD)

Saawan bhaadon bahut chalat hai
Maagh poos mein thodi,
Amir Khusro yun kahay,
Tu boojh paheli mori.

 It moves mostly in the months of Savan and Bhadon,
 Not much in Magh and Poos;
 So says Amir Khusro,
 You solve this riddle of mine. (Ans: mori)

Apni chhab banaikay, jo main pi kay paas gayi
Chhab dekhi jab piyu ki so apni bhool gayi.

 With my beautiful face all adorned, when I went to the beloved,
 I saw his face, and forgot all about my own beauty.

More can be found at:

http://www.angelfire.com/sd/urdumedia/index.html
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/khosrow.html

Take a look at the chronological list of Urdu poets:
http://www.urdustan.com/adeeb/

Note that the term "Urdu" did not come into existance
until Shahjehan built his fort in Delhi in 1645.
It was Wali Dakkhani (1668-1741) who brought modern
Urdu poetry to Delhi from Deccan.


Yashwant




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  5 03:45:16 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 03:45:16 +0000
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061369.23782.8910373586059562959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>No one (also not I) can be held responsible for whatever weird ideas
> >others impute to them, and no one can reckon with the randomness of
> >prejudice / eccentricity etc. which some persons in the reading public
> >may come up with. To defend oneself in advance against all possible
> >unforeseen imputations is plainly impossible, and nobody should expect
> >it. In future, please just see what others write, instead of imagining
> >what they might write, or what you would want them to write, etc.

I was just trying to be polite, but obviously such courtesy is wasted.

>Does this mean that you cannot answer by yourself? All right, after
>reading your previous message: yes, you _are_ doing it just for the >fun of
>the polemic.

You want to have the last word, right? Have it. It's yours.


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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  5 04:25:24 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 04:25:24 +0000
Subject: History of Mughalstan
Message-ID: <161227061371.23782.15842919085763857064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas writes :

>In order to defend the concept of a monolithic nation-state, recourse
>must always be had to Brahmanic civilization as this alone is the sole
>"common thread" present in South Asia.

But this thread is as old as it gets anywhere in the land. No other
culture in India is as extensive nor as ancient. And not a single culture
can be identified as totally independent of Brahmanic influence. So instead
of being seen as a common thread, it is better to view it as the "mother"
thread.

>However, this is an outside superposition upon the various ethnic nations
>of South Asia -
>"Brahmanisation" occurred in the post-Buddhist phase.

Only if you're totally ignorant of the Mahabharatha which even according to
Indological dating is pre-Buddhist.

>However, trying to
>justify a common nationhood because 5% Brahmins share a common culture is
>analogous to trying to justify a common European nationhood because the 5
>% Jews share a common culture.

Five hundred years back even in Dravidian Tamil Nadu, both the brahmin and
the "dravidian" non-brahmin Tamil would have :

1. Had Tamil as their mother tongue,
2. eaten sambar, rasam and curd,
3. worn the dhoti,
4. prayed to Shiva and Vishnu,
5. born, married, procreated, lived and died by the general rules of the
   dharma.

Whether brahmin or non-brahmin all would have learnt and lived by the
teachings of the Raamaayanam and other great epics. (I once told a converted
Tamil christian a rare story from the Mahaabhaaratham, only to discover that
he already knew it from some village folk tale). So the morals, the message
of the civilization were known and adhered by all, irrespective of caste
lines.

So where's the great distinction in the culture?

Differences if any in lifestyle were due to the unique nature of their
caste duties - while the brahmin would have chanted the shruti, the
non-brahmin would have done his caste duty - farming, cattle rearing etc If
it is said that others couldn't relate to the brahmin's way of life which
was unique - it is only as unique as the life of the VellaaLars or the
Maravars or the Paraiyars inside their own circles. Each caste had its own
unique practices which were not familiar or adhered to by others ie
VellaaLars have their own practices which are not followed by others,
likewise Maravars and Paraiyars - while the VellALars worshipped the land,
the Maravars would have worshipped the sword. These peculiarities were due
to the distinct nature of the professions.

So if you talk about Brahmin civilization due to the uniqueness of Brahmanic
culture, then by the same logic you would also have to talk about VellALar
civilization, Maravar civilization, Paraiyar civilization etc. These cannot
be grouped together as the Dravidian civilization due to the inherent
differences in the lifestyles/worldview, present inside each group.
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From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Sep  5 14:07:26 2000
From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 07:07:26 -0700
Subject: [colophon verse]
Message-ID: <161227061380.23782.4227112718178498946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In two of the manuscripts [Oriya Lit. material] I have, the scribal
plea/end-filler reads

bhagnapRSThakaTigrIvas tulA[I]dRSTir adhomukhaH |   
duHkhena likhitaM granthaM putravat paripAlayet ||

This aptly describes the plight of the scribe who doubled up on the floor
[breaking his back, waist ans neck] pushing the stylus on to the palm leaf,
and carving away the text [his eyes fixed on to the stylus- the tulI or tulA
or his eyes on balance].

The other scribal end-filler that I have seen on Mss, and even on early Oriya
printed books  reads

bhImasyApi raNe bhaGgo munerapi matibhramaH /
y[j]adi zuddham azuddham vA mama doSo na vidyate //

Best wishes.
Jogesh Panda

Arlo Griffiths <griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL> wrote:
Dear INDOLOGISTs,

If anyone knows of other attestations of the following verse from a colophon
of an Orissa ms., I would be very grateful to hear about it:

bhagnap.r.s.thaka.tigriivasthiirad.r.s.tir adhomukha.h |   [read: -sthira-]
du.hkhena likhita.m grantha.m putravat paripaalayet ||

There also seems to be a variant (in 2 other mss.), with something like
TULVA/TULII/TULAAd.r.s.tir, but I find the ak.saras hard to read there, and
cannot see what is meant.

With thanks,

-- Arlo Griffiths

CNWS / Instituut Kern
Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA  Leiden
the Netherlands

tel.: +31-71-5272979


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From xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET  Tue Sep  5 02:28:21 2000
From: xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET (Francis Parmar, S. J.)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 07:58:21 +0530
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061366.23782.5382274476640410102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Sharan,
It is true that the present government has failed to maintain the rule of
law in the country.  However, that is not due to lack of provisions in the
Constitutions of India, but rather due to a lack of political will to do
anything.  Clear guidelines of the Constitutions are flaunted every day.
The government has found a good scape-goat in the form of the Constitution.
It seems to be saying that all will be well when the Constitutions will be
changed!  The Constitution has not failed, we have failed our Constitution.
In the state of Gujarat where I live, we have the same party ruling as in
the centre.  Yet the break down of the rule of law is quite shocking.  The
anti-minorities' stance of the so called Sangh Parivar seems to be receiving
a governmental support.  When places of worship are being torched, members
of the minorities are being systematically harassed and intimidated, all
that the Prime Minister can utter is to have a national debate on
Conversions!  When bomb blasts take place, the same government blames the
hand of ISI and washes its hands!  The neighbouring country seems to be all
powerful to do what it pleases right in the heart of India and the
government of this great country seems to be saying that it is helpless!
I'm glad that person like you, so far away from this great country are
interested in our affairs.  However, the solution to us, on the spot does
not seem to be to blame the Constitution and change it, but rather force the
Government to do its duty of upholding the Constitution.  All that is needed
is a political will to do something and stop the goons in politics from
taking the country to ransom.
Francis.




From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Sep  5 16:01:22 2000
From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 09:01:22 -0700
Subject: [Re: [colophon verse]]
Message-ID: <161227061397.23782.4317697804899333663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arlo Griffiths <griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL> wrote:

<Does tulii (or turii) really mean 'stylus'? If so, that would solve the
puzzle for me.>


Turner [CDIAL-5904] includes "pencil" as one of the meanings of tUlA, tUlI.
The word in this sense occurs in DivYavadAna. He also mentions the possible
connection to Drav. turi [DED 2790].


<In what kind of mss. do you
find it, Jogesh?>


I have this scribal end-verse in the mss. of BalarAmadAsa's GuptagItA bA
chatisAlekhana, a sixteenth century Oriya poem.

By the way, I prefer 'sthIradRSTiH', eyes intent and fixed on the palm leaf
and stylus.

Best.

Jogesh Panda









-

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From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Tue Sep  5 13:03:40 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 09:03:40 -0400
Subject: colophon verse
In-Reply-To: <E13WHC8-0002h5-00@mailhub2.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227061378.23782.2083698621395581476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If I were to emend the verse, it would read:
bhagnap.r.s.thaka.tigriivaasthirad.r.s.tir adhomukha.h |   [read:
-asthirad.r.s.tir-]
du.hkhena likhita.m grantha.m putravat paripaalayet ||

The first part of the verse especially seems apt, because a few
years ago I almost broke my back lifting a heavy box of books and had to
be rushed to a hospital.
                                        Madhav Deshpande

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Arlo Griffiths wrote:

> Dear INDOLOGISTs,
>
> If anyone knows of other attestations of the following verse from a colophon
> of an Orissa ms., I would be very grateful to hear about it:
>
> bhagnap.r.s.thaka.tigriivasthiirad.r.s.tir adhomukha.h |   [read: -sthira-]
> du.hkhena likhita.m grantha.m putravat paripaalayet ||
>
> There also seems to be a variant (in 2 other mss.), with something like
> TULVA/TULII/TULAAd.r.s.tir, but I find the ak.saras hard to read there, and
> cannot see what is meant.
>
> With thanks,
>
> -- Arlo Griffiths
>
> CNWS / Instituut Kern
> Universiteit Leiden
> Postbus 9515
> 2300 RA  Leiden
> the Netherlands
>
> tel.: +31-71-5272979
>




From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU  Tue Sep  5 14:45:34 2000
From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 09:45:34 -0500
Subject: SV: Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20000903174445.00e61d20@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227061387.23782.3447313891435833514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

AND ALCOHOL!

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:

> At 05:28 PM 09/03/2000 +0200, Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
>
> >spoken. What usually happens is that conquerors contribute with vocabulary
> >to the existing local language: just look at all the French in English,
>
> Or, maybe more to the point, all the Arabic words in Spanish.  Many Spanish
> words that begin with "al" are Arabic imports that preserved the
> Arabic article:
>
> alfiler
> alfombra
> almacen
> alcazar
> almohada
> albondiga
> alberca
> ...etc.
>
> Plus other common words such as "ojala, ("hopefully," "I hope so") which
> originally means "Allah willing."
>
> LMF:
> >vocabulary dumped by an invading French army that took control of England.
>
> In the case of Spanish, by the invading Moors that controlled most of
> modern-day Spain for centuries.
>
> LMF:
> >The same thing happened to that particular Prakrit that became Urdu.
>
> Mozarabic, the archaic Spanish spoken for centuries in the areas under
> Muslim domination, had many Arabic words but preserved its Romance (Vulgar
> Latin) grammar and sound system, just like Urdu preserved its Indo-Aryan
> ones.  After the expulsion of the Moors from Spain in the 15th c. Spanish
> became increasingly latinized, just as after partition Hindi became more
> sanskritized and Urdu more arabicized and persianized.
>
> Best,
>
> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
> University of California, Berkeley
>




From nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU  Tue Sep  5 14:49:08 2000
From: nhines at ARTSCI.WUSTL.EDU (Naseem Hines)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 09:49:08 -0500
Subject: Urdu/hindi
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000090501214565@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061391.23782.443986000337413013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For that matter, the term Hindi and Hindu is also difficult for a
layperson to understand because or their origin in a geographical region.
Urdu is a Turkic word which means lashkar or cantonement. Terminalogy and
the baggage appended to it are two different things.

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Yashwant Malaiya wrote:

> May I present examples of what is considered to to be
> the work of the oldest "Urdu" poet, Amir Khusro Dehlavi
> (1253-1325 AD)
>
> Saawan bhaadon bahut chalat hai
> Maagh poos mein thodi,
> Amir Khusro yun kahay,
> Tu boojh paheli mori.
>
>  It moves mostly in the months of Savan and Bhadon,
>  Not much in Magh and Poos;
>  So says Amir Khusro,
>  You solve this riddle of mine. (Ans: mori)
>
> Apni chhab banaikay, jo main pi kay paas gayi
> Chhab dekhi jab piyu ki so apni bhool gayi.
>
>  With my beautiful face all adorned, when I went to the beloved,
>  I saw his face, and forgot all about my own beauty.
>
> More can be found at:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/sd/urdumedia/index.html
> http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/khosrow.html
>
> Take a look at the chronological list of Urdu poets:
> http://www.urdustan.com/adeeb/
>
> Note that the term "Urdu" did not come into existance
> until Shahjehan built his fort in Delhi in 1645.
> It was Wali Dakkhani (1668-1741) who brought modern
> Urdu poetry to Delhi from Deccan.
>
>
> Yashwant
>




From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Tue Sep  5 16:50:03 2000
From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 09:50:03 -0700
Subject: Colophon verse
In-Reply-To: <E13WJw4-0003cl-00@mailhub1.liv.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227061399.23782.3721630171533012370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Both the verse bhagna-p.r.s.tha ... and the verse having yadi ;suddham
a;suddha.m vaa .. as its second half commonly occur in mss. If you look at
ms. catalogues in which the concluding parts of each ms. are reproduced or
at manuscript-based editions in which the concluding parts of mss utilized
by the editor are reproduced, you will find many occurrences of the verses.

The verses are frequently written in a corrupt form (diminishing our
confidence in the scribe or telling us that the scribe was really tired
when he came to that point in the ms.!). They routinely have some variants;
e.g. yatnena for putravat.

In almost all the versions I have seen of the first verse, there is a
disjunction of thought in the first half of the verse and the second, but
that disjunction can easily be overcome on the strength of the context. The
first half describes the hardship involved in copying an exemplar. The
second half appeals to the prospective user to take good care of the
prepared ms. The thought that would have connected the two halves, namely
'because the scribe has gone through such hardship, the prospective user
...' does not find (explicit) expression. That the first line applies to
the scribe and the second to the product of his effort is left for the
reader of the verse to imagine. It is possible that the currently available
version is an instance of loss in ms. transmission. The second half of
bhagna-p.r.s.tha ..and the first half of ka.s.tena likhita.m ... may have
gone missing. Another less likely possibility is that the verse was
originally written by a scribe or copyist whose command of verse
composition in Sanskrit was limited. Leaps of thought are not uncommon in
'vernacular Sanskrit' writings.

If Professor Deshpande has suggested his emendation
(>griivaasthirad.r.s.tir ... read: -asthirad.r.s.tir->} seriously, it
should be typed as ... griivo 'sthira... However, an emendation at this
point is really not necessary. The bahu-vriihi adj sthira-d.r.s.ti is quite
appropriate. It refers to that part of a scribe's hardship which requires
him to look at his exemplar and copy-in-the making in a concentrated way;
it expresses the strain involved in focusing one's sight. The ms. reading
griivasthiira reproduced by Arlo Griffiths is essentially correct. Less
than ideally written mss. quite commonly drop the visarga before
conjunctions such as pr and sth.

bhagna is obviously not to be taken in a very literal sense. Its use in the
verse is similar to the use of 'break' in English expressions such as
'back-breaking work.'

>TULVA/TULII/TULAA< reported by Mr. Jogesh Panda should probably be tuuli
>or tuulii, primarily standing for the painting/drawing/writing brush (=
>our pen) and secondarily for writing instrument in general, perhaps
>including the stylus. tuulikaa occurs in the compositions of Kaalidaasa
>etc. in the sense of a painting brush (unmiilita.m tuulikayeva citram --
>Kumaara-sa.mbhava 1.32).

The commonly attested first half of the second verse is: yaad.r;sa.m
pustaka.m d.r.s.ta.m taad.r;sa.m likhita.m mayaa /

ashok aklujkar




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Sep  5 14:45:11 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 10:45:11 -0400
Subject: colophon verse
Message-ID: <161227061389.23782.15272985137819764637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have seen that verse in many manuscripts.  I may have written it
down with a reference to a particular ms.  I will check at home.

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Sep  5 15:00:05 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 11:00:05 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061393.23782.11195434770132773942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG> Isn't the bronze age Greek culture (Minoan Crete) a non-IE one?
Interesting that even though the IE spread all over the world, the earliest
IE literatures recorded (Greece and Vedic) are from regions where great
non-IE cultures (IVC, for example) flourished before the IE intrusion.
>
>
RB> Nothing atall is known about harappan or minoan language so how can we
say that they are non IE or non anything else.
I dont ride a horse to work, does that mean I dont speak IE.
RB




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Tue Sep  5 10:23:18 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 11:23:18 +0100
Subject: IS IT THE TIME TO COME UP WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION FOR INDIA ?
Message-ID: <161227061373.23782.13950964852640602855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Parmar:
                 Thank you very much for your cooments, and interest on
this topic . There is no question of forgetting the land which was so rich
in philosophy but the trying times came in the history of India, and they
are mentioned in the scriptures . It is the ability to " Discriminate "
which is not a simple thing. I do not know how much you are familiar with
Mahabharat and Geeta, but I cite an instance from it, which shows that
Mahabharat occurs time and time again, and I will also give an example
where how such a problem was handled successfully in U.S.A. Both instances
are very famous . In the latter case, I was in North America, and watching
how these two ( Indian a, and American ) handle such a difficult proble.

The first is the Mahabharat > Draupdi was the wife of Pandavas , the five
brothers . Yudhishthira lost in  gambling, the bet included his wife,
Draupdi. Duryodhana, the son of the King , had grudge on her, because she
had laughed at him while he ( Duryodhana ) was visiting Indrashpath ( the
spelling could be wrong ), where he got confused with the fact where was
water ( Jal ) , and where was thala ( land ) . He walked into water .
Draupdi said to him that Andhey Ka Putra Andhaa ( Blind persons son is
blind ) . It is true that Draupdi should not have uttered such a word . In
any case, this fellow Duryodhana wanted to disrobe her in front of every
one in the Durbar ( King's Court ) . He asked his brother to disrobe her .
At this Draupdi pleaded with her husband, Yudhishthira, who had lost him ,
and similarly , to others . All said that they were Vachan baddha  ( bound
by their words ) . So they could not help her . There was another gentleman
in the court, the elder, Bhishmapithamah . She requested him to intervene,
but he said that heis loyalty was with the crown . Ultimately, it was the
Lord Krishna who gave her the , practically infinite length cloth. So, the
Dharma, was protected. In hinduism, as I understand, truth is relative.
This means, what is the truth under one situation, it may not be under
other situation. Unlike christianity, hindus do not have dos and donts . It
was the Dharma of those who were present in the court to come to Draudi's
help and protect her laaj ( honour ) . Being bound by words, or
unconditional loyalty to the king, is a blind faith, and the person is not
using the God given ability to human beings - Vivek . Unfortunately, people
in even high positions including these politicians lack in it . The courts,
also made up of humans, have the same problem.

Now, I am showing another situation, it was in U.S.A. - a christian
country, practically . It happened with Nixon in the Watergate Scandal . He
would not reveal the truth . He was using executive privilege to hide the
facts from Sam Irvin, who was holding the hearings of the Senate . Nixon
could not succed because ( a ) The judge Sirica ruled that he was not above
the law and could not withhold the materials which included the famous
tapes , the existence of which was revealed by Alexander Butterfield . The
tapes were found to be erased by Nixon. Thus , that ended the Nixon era,
and the Dharma - the truth , was upheld.

We live in comlex situations, and the decisions have to be made from one
situation to another .

Now, coming to the constitution, the Central Government presently, a
convenient escape route . It is throwing every thing on the State
Government . If the constitution was amended , and which empowered the
Central Government to go with whatever force it needs to correct the
problem, then this will not happen. I am not saying what is not happening .
In U.S.A. the Federal Marshals go into the states .

You are talking about the problems of minorities,and I am talking about the
problems of majority . When the criminals take over, it does not matter
whether it is a majority or a minority . In this day and age, a few persons
holding lethal power , can bring devastation in the world.

In hindi or urdu - there is a proverb - Lakir ke Fakir . That is what a lot
of people holding the position of powerm are who are hesitant to take
action- even though it is the Dharma , on any religion, or any society .

It gives even more reason to you to support my case.

Regards,

Anand M. Sharan




From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Sep  5 01:25:43 2000
From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 11:25:43 +1000
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
In-Reply-To: <F212OV1EetVoMDrxxnS000069d8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227061364.23782.10448822826403866499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just a reminder that the earliest recorded IE literatures are Hittite
(still from a region where great non-IE cultures  flourished
>before the IE intrusion), Greek and Vedic.

Richard Barz
Canberra

At 05:21 PM 9/4/00 +0000, you wrote:
><<<
>A footnote in J.P. Mallory (In search of the Indo-Europeans) says
>that Anna Davies carried out a cursory examination of the Greek
>vocabulary, which revealed that less than 40 per cent of it could
>be ascribed a transparent Indo-European etymology, 8 per cent had
>established non-Greek origins and about 52 per cent had no clear
>etymology.
>
>This is a footnote to the statement that "Yet the linguistic
>evidence taken as a whole does indicate that the Greeks did borrow
>a considerable number of elements from a non-Greek language."
>
>The question is -- what is the equivalent statistic for
>Vedic Sanskrit ?
>>>>
>
>Isn't the bronze age Greek culture (Minoan Crete) a non-IE one?
>Interesting that even though the IE spread all over the world,
>the earliest IE literatures recorded (Greece and Vedic) are from
>regions where great non-IE cultures (IVC, for example) flourished
>before the IE intrusion.
>
>Regards,
>N. Ganesan
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>




From bprasad at NETCOM.COM  Tue Sep  5 19:47:42 2000
From: bprasad at NETCOM.COM (Bal Prasad)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 12:47:42 -0700
Subject: History of Mughalstan
In-Reply-To: <200009032300.QAA21821@netcom.com>
Message-ID: <161227061402.23782.15506119696233094774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Followers of this thread may be interested in checking the archives
of 3-4 Dec '98 under the title 'Urdu Speakers'.

Prasad




From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Sep  5 11:46:00 2000
From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 13:46:00 +0200
Subject: colophon verse
Message-ID: <161227061376.23782.13551256890638104319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGISTs,

If anyone knows of other attestations of the following verse from a colophon
of an Orissa ms., I would be very grateful to hear about it:

bhagnap.r.s.thaka.tigriivasthiirad.r.s.tir adhomukha.h |   [read: -sthira-]
du.hkhena likhita.m grantha.m putravat paripaalayet ||

There also seems to be a variant (in 2 other mss.), with something like
TULVA/TULII/TULAAd.r.s.tir, but I find the ak.saras hard to read there, and
cannot see what is meant.

With thanks,

-- Arlo Griffiths

CNWS / Instituut Kern
Universiteit Leiden
Postbus 9515
2300 RA  Leiden
the Netherlands

tel.: +31-71-5272979




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep  5 21:03:58 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 14:03:58 -0700
Subject: Loan words, literary styles
Message-ID: <161227061408.23782.10068369121342626954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Are there many writers in Dravidian languages like Kannada, Telugu,
Malayalam, etc., where loan words from other langauges are replaced
with the native words? Called ha.le kanna.da, acca telugu, pacca malaya.lam,
how old are these schools?

Much like Urdu goes for Farsi/Arabic, Hindi for Sanskrit, Tamil for Tamil,
do the other literary languages of the Dravidian seek and replace foreign
loan words with natives?

Thanks,
SM



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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  5 14:10:54 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 14:10:54 +0000
Subject: SV: interesting experience/Urdu/hindi
Message-ID: <161227061383.23782.2697727211447513440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. S. Abbas wrote:
>Also, the official history establishment here is highly corrupt and
>dishonest. Arun Shourie's book `Eminent Historians,' while lamenting that
>history is not chauvinist enough for him, does expose the corruption,
>nepotism and fraud practiced by the official establishment, barring a few
>isolated individuals. This establishment  is writing history - so please
>keep an open mind about all areas of  Indian history, which means
>questioning the fundamentals.

Even an eminent archaeologist, on the other end of Shourie, agrees.
Prof. S. Ratnagar writes, "Most of all I would like to express my
appreciation of Madhav Deshpande, Thomas Trautmann, Michael Witzel,
Hans Hock and Johannes Brinkhorst - of their ethics and honesty,
rare amongst scholars working on the Indian past."
(p. 234, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, Harvard university,
1999.)

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From Thomas.Lowder at YOGANANDA-SRF.ORG  Tue Sep  5 22:50:55 2000
From: Thomas.Lowder at YOGANANDA-SRF.ORG (Thomas Lowder)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 15:50:55 -0700
Subject: E-mail address for Dr. M. Kripacharyulu
Message-ID: <161227061414.23782.4781480946798685613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I need an e-mail address for Dr. Munuganti Kriipacharyulu?

His edition of sAyaNa and mAdhava-vidyAraNya: A study of their lives and
letters
lists his address as Guntur, India.

Thanks, regards

Thomas Lowder




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep  5 15:53:24 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 15:53:24 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061395.23782.472135713258437442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 >Nothing atall is known about harappan or minoan language so how
 >can we say that they are non IE or non anything else.
 >I dont ride a horse to work, does that mean I dont speak IE.

Just one reason why Minoan or Harappan language is
not PIE, because PIE was confined to a relatively
compact area, far off from either Greece or NW India.
Wheeled transport technology, horses and chariots
are useful in determining this.

David Anthony, Shards of Speech, 1995, Antiquity, v. 69
"Terms for wheel, axle and draft pole, and a verb meaning
'to go or convey in a vehicle' suggest that PIE existed as
a single language after 3500 B.C., when wheeled vehicles were
invented. PIE must have begun to disintegrate before 2000 B.C.:
by 1500 B.C. three of its daughter languages - Greek, Hittite
and Indic - had become quite dissimilar. Altogether, then the
linguistic evidence points to a homeland between the Ural and
Caucasus mountains, in the centuries between 3500 and 2000 B.C."

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Tue Sep  5 21:10:55 2000
From: jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (John D. Dunne)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 16:10:55 -0500
Subject: Opening in Theravaada Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227061410.23782.18425188507002345262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings, all.

Please find below an announcement of a position at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison.

Apologies for any cross-listing.

Yours,

John Dunne

=================

Position in Theravada Buddhism

The Department of Languages and Cultures of Asia and the Religious
Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison seek a scholar
of Theravaada Buddhism, rank open. Applicants should be familiar with
South and Southeast Asian expressions of Theravaada teaching and
practice, although they will likely specialize in one region. They
should control Pali language and literature, and the modern language
of at least one contemporary Theravaada society. Candidates should be
prepared to cover religious doctrine and practice as well as their
intersection with contemporary literature and society. The tenure
home will be 100% in LCA but the candidate will teach courses cross
listed in Religious Studies and participate actively in the Religious
Studies Program. Salary competitive.

Starting date: 8/27/01. Application deadline: Dec. 1st, 2000. Send
application letter, CV, three letters of recommendation, and writing
sample (minimum length: article or dissertation/book chapter) to:
Prof. Robert J. Bickner, Chair, Search Committee in Theravada
Buddhism, Department of Languages and Cultures of Asia, UW-Madison,
1240 Van Hise Hall, 1220 Linden Drive, Madison, WI 53706. Unless
confidentiality is requested in writing, information regarding
applicants must be released upon request. Finalists cannot be
guaranteed confidentiality. AA/EOE. Applications from women and
minorities encouraged.


=========================
John D. Dunne
Assistant Professor
Languages and Cultures of Asia
University of Wisconsin-Madison




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Sep  5 20:26:47 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 16:26:47 -0400
Subject: Urdu speakers
Message-ID: <161227061404.23782.11353934477118658876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would say about half of the Bengali Muslims speak the eastern dialect of
Hindustani ( I think it is called Sharqi but am not sure), while the other
half (the converts) speak Bengali.
Otherwise some figures are given at the Ethnologue database at
<http://www.sil.org/ethnologue> but the estimate of 50-50 Urdu-Bengali is
still the best.
Samar

I have never come across a single bangladeshi who can speak
hindi/urdu/hindustani or sharqi or whatever you may want to call it. I am
not sure why you refer to the bengalis as converts, all muslims in south
asia are converts including ones in pakistan. Conversion must have taken
place pretty early in east bengal during sher shah suri's rule.

I flew on biman airlines, I think the announcments were in bengali and
english only
>

Whatever happened to the urdu speakers. Is the arabic script ever used? Did
retaliatory genocide and govt policy suppress use of urdu dialects?

RB




From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Tue Sep  5 14:41:35 2000
From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 16:41:35 +0200
Subject: [colophon verse]
Message-ID: <161227061385.23782.14347403074615730606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Pre.s.thau Yoge;saMaadhavau,

Thank you for your replies. Yes, of course I should have written
-asthirad.r.s.tir.
    Does tulii (or turii) really mean 'stylus'? If so, that would solve the
puzzle for me. I find these verses, the second one as well (does anyone know
it elsewhere in India?), in Paippalaada mss. In what kind of mss. do you
find it, Jogesh?

Best from Arlo


----------
>From: Jogesh Panda <jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Re: [colophon verse]
>Date: din, 5 sep 2000 4:07 PM
>

> In two of the manuscripts [Oriya Lit. material] I have, the scribal
> plea/end-filler reads
>
> bhagnapRSThakaTigrIvas tulA[I]dRSTir adhomukhaH |
> duHkhena likhitaM granthaM putravat paripAlayet ||
>
> This aptly describes the plight of the scribe who doubled up on the floor
> [breaking his back, waist ans neck] pushing the stylus on to the palm leaf,
> and carving away the text [his eyes fixed on to the stylus- the tulI or tulA
> or his eyes on balance].
>
> The other scribal end-filler that I have seen on Mss, and even on early Oriya
> printed books  reads
>
> bhImasyApi raNe bhaGgo munerapi matibhramaH /
> y[j]adi zuddham azuddham vA mama doSo na vidyate //
>
> Best wishes.
> Jogesh Panda
>
> Arlo Griffiths <griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL> wrote:
> Dear INDOLOGISTs,
>
> If anyone knows of other attestations of the following verse from a colophon
> of an Orissa ms., I would be very grateful to hear about it:
>
> bhagnap.r.s.thaka.tigriivasthiirad.r.s.tir adhomukha.h |   [read: -sthira-]
> du.hkhena likhita.m grantha.m putravat paripaalayet ||
>
> There also seems to be a variant (in 2 other mss.), with something like
> TULVA/TULII/TULAAd.r.s.tir, but I find the ak.saras hard to read there, and
> cannot see what is meant.
>
> With thanks,
>
> -- Arlo Griffiths
>
> CNWS / Instituut Kern
> Universiteit Leiden
> Postbus 9515
> 2300 RA  Leiden
> the Netherlands
>
> tel.: +31-71-5272979
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
> http://home.netscape.com/webmail




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Sep  5 20:37:05 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 21:37:05 +0100
Subject: Urdu/hindi
Message-ID: <161227061406.23782.8898594432135264352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Naseem Hines wrote:

>For that matter, the term Hindi and Hindu is also difficult for a
>layperson to understand because or their origin in a geographical region.
>Urdu is a Turkic word which means lashkar or cantonement. Terminalogy and
>the baggage appended to it are two different things.

When discussing Hindi and Urdu, we should indeed focus on terminology
to resolve differences.

1. They are not independent languages. They are the same language
if we remove the loan words. All Farsi and Arabic words are loan
words, as are sanskrit tatsama words. Every one of these can be
replaced by an English word (as some do), and the resulting
expression would be grammatically valid.

2. At one time the term "Hindi" was sometimes used for what is
now called "Urdu" (with Farsi/Arabic words), to distinguish it
from Farsi.

3. Texts in Apabhramsha (and old Hindi etc) are now available that
fill the gap between Prakrits and modern North Indian languages.
Thus any speculation is unnecessary.

4. Contrary to popular view, a lot of Muslim authors, specially
Sufis, wrote in what today would be termed Hindi (and not Urdu).
There is no good reason why their language should be considered
any different from that of Khusro. These authors, like Jayasi
etc. should be studied in Pakistan.

Yashwant




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Sep  6 02:06:07 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 22:06:07 -0400
Subject: Urdu speakers
Message-ID: <161227061418.23782.670528612939841870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

They are known as "Biharis" and live like refugees in Bangladesh. They are
discriminated and many try to illegally immigrate to Pakistan Many such
illegal "muhajeers" can be found in Karachi. Some have also gone back to
India. Their total number is estimated to be around 250,000.
>
RB> This is miniscule compared to SA's "half the population" claim. I could
see some sort of mixed bengali hindi slang develop in refugee camps etc but
doubt the existance of a large hindi/urdu speaking group. The west
pakistanis have hardly left a trace as far as language is concerned. I was
amused to see seat belts refered to as asana bandhani while travelling in
biman airlines, most hindi speakers would not go to such lengths at
sanskritization.
>
RS> Just like "high" caste Indians (irrespective of ethnicity) wanted to be
associated with "immigrant" Indo -Aryan roots (versus the new nativist Aryan
movement now)
>
Any aryan movement in india has always been nativist and has had little to
do with immigrant cultures of arabs, huns, sakas etc. Even if we hold the
AMT to be the sudden recent explosion as is claimed, we have to admit that
most of the practices brahmans have propogated and legitimized to this day
would be considred pagan or animistic rituals in other cultures and have
thier origins in india. e.g. see recent thread on durga puja.
Can we say this of christian missionaries or muslim converts
We should  have a look at neighbouring countries and continents and see
which nations have been able to preserve even a trace of their older
culture.
RB




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  6 02:25:17 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 22:25:17 -0400
Subject: Some regional variations in Indian lunar calendar
Message-ID: <161227061420.23782.5929013911506499212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I'm writing a computer program to calculate the Indian lunar calendar using
the formulas in "Astronomical Algorithms" by Jean Meeus.  (One of the
reasons I'm doing this is to be able to calculate the dates of Indian
festivals several years in advance and I can never get panchangas for N.
America that far in advance.) I've gotten quite good accuracy in calculating
the end times of the tithis. The calculated end times agree with the "Indian
Astronomical Ephemeris" to within 12 seconds.  I'm now adding the logic to
calculate adhika and kshaya lunar months. The logic for adhika months is
quite straight forward but S.K. Chatterjee in "Indian Calendric System" page
37 states that there is regional variation in the handling of kshaya months
with three different schools, broadly covering three geographic areas as
follows:

a) Eastern School (generally followed in Eastern and parts of N.E. India)
1st adhika month before kshaya month treated as intercalary (mala) month
with no festivals celebrated. 2nd adhika month after kshaya month treated as
normal month named after solar month overlaped by kshaya month.

b) North Western School (generally followed in North-West, and a part of
West India and also western part of N. India).
1st adhika month treated as normal month and following months up to and
including kshaya month treated as normal months corresponding to normal
sequence and names of lunar months, but second adhika month treated as
intercalary or mala month.

c) Southern School (generally followed in South India and a part of western
India).
Both adhikca months treated as mala months with no festivals performed.  The
kshaya month treated as jugma or dual month.

Can anyone tell me which of the above three methods of handling kshaya month
would be used in the state of Maharashtra?  Or perhaps more specifically
which method would a vedic priest of the Hiranyakeshin school of the
taittiriya samhita in Maharashtra be most likely to use?

Many thanks in advance,


Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

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From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep  5 21:49:05 2000
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 00 22:49:05 +0100
Subject: Urdu speakers
Message-ID: <161227061412.23782.10861992325479958334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:26:47 -0400, Rajarshi Banerjee

<rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM> wrote:

>Samar

>I have never come across a single bangladeshi who can speak
>hindi/urdu/hindustani or sharqi or whatever you may want to call it. I am
>not sure why you refer to the bengalis as converts,

Just like "high" caste Indians (irrespective of ethnicity) wanted to be
associated with "immigrant" Indo -Aryan roots (versus the new nativist
Aryan movement now) "high" caste Muslims known as Sharif do not want to
have anything to do with Indian indigenous culture and roots whether it is
Aryan or Dravidian. They proclaim to be pure descendants of Turks, Pathans,
Arabs (specially Prophet Mohammad?s Qureshi tribe!!) and Iranians. (See
http://adaniel.tripod.com/foreigners.htm)
 It is only the Bengalis and most Tamil/Malayalam speaking Muslims who
proclaim their native roots even if they had part Arab ancestry. Thus
the ?lofty? Shariffs look down upon the converted ?Kafirs?. Many Pakistani
history books (and websites) impose this self-identity of Shariffs on all
Muslim Punjabis, and Sindhis even if it is obviously bogus.

{Infact the part Arab ancestry of Mapillas and Rawuther Muslims of
Kerala/TamilNadu/Sri Lanka has more historic legitimacy than that of the
hundreds of thousands of ?Syeds? across North India and Pakistan who
proclaim Arab origins}

Sameer Abba?s effort at deriving Urdu from Iranian, Turkish and Arab is on
these same ideological lines. It is as unscientific as Dr.
Rajaram?s ?decipherment? of Indus valley ?script?.


>all muslims in south
>asia are converts including ones in pakistan. Conversion must have taken
>place pretty early in east bengal during sher shah suri's rule.


>Whatever happened to the urdu speakers. Is the arabic script ever used? Did
>retaliatory genocide and govt policy suppress use of urdu dialects?

>RB

They are known as "Biharis" and live like refugees in Bangladesh. They are
discriminated and many try to illegally immigrate to Pakistan Many such
illegal "muhajeers" can be found in Karachi. Some have also gone back to
India. Their total number is estimated to be around 250,000.

http://www.muslimemail.com/~wilma/archives/inin-net/9904/msg00102.html
http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/scasia/bangladesh.htm
http://landow.stg.brown.edu/post/bg/bgpeople.html
http://www.saarc.com/spbangla.html

Raveen




From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Wed Sep  6 00:31:44 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 01:31:44 +0100
Subject: Samyutta Nikaya on Sanskrit
Message-ID: <161227061416.23782.4825622552250021178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings, everyone!

Is there a Sanskrit version of suttas from Samyutta Nikaya?
The original is in Pali -- was it translated into Sanskrit?
How close Pali lexicon is to Sanskrit?

TIA,  Dmitri.




From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU  Wed Sep  6 14:54:02 2000
From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 10:54:02 -0400
Subject: Samyutta Nikaya on Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000090601414534@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061422.23782.8478954544058674704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is an edition of 25 Sanskrit sutras from the Sam.yuktaagama done by
Chandrabhal Tripathi in 1962.

Tripathi Chandrabhal, _Funfundzwanzig Sutras Des Nidanasamyukta_ (Berlin:
Akademie Verlag, 1962).

Joseph Walser
Department of Comparative Religion
114C Miner Hall
Tufts University
Medford, MA 02155
ph# (617) 627-2322
fax: (617) 627-3191

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Dmitri
> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 8:32 PM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Samyutta Nikaya on Sanskrit
>
>
> Greetings, everyone!
>
> Is there a Sanskrit version of suttas from Samyutta Nikaya?
> The original is in Pali -- was it translated into Sanskrit?
> How close Pali lexicon is to Sanskrit?
>
> TIA,  Dmitri.
>




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Sep  6 21:25:42 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 14:25:42 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061440.23782.1547357515519383994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On these figures, see M. Witzel, "Substrate Languages in Old
Indo-Aryan (Rigvedic, Middle and Late Vedic)," Electronic Journal
of Vedic Sanskrit, Vol. 5 (1999), Issue 1 (September), available
in PDF format from:

http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0501/ejvs0501article.pdf

The figures certainly do NOT support OIT - exactly the reverse.

Arun Gupta writes:

> So, 95% to 96% of the vocabulary of Rigvedic Sanskrit is "not foreign".
> "Not foreign" presumably means that the words conform to the general
> patterns for RV Sanskrit words.
>
> Of the not-foreign RV Sanskrit words, how many are Indo-European in origin ?
> (i.e., have corresponding words in a sufficient number of other
> Indo-European languages to be confident that these words were in
> Proto-Indo-European, or were borrowed sufficiently early -- well before
> Indo-Aryan entry into India -- from other languages during the theorized
> Indo-European language dispersal) ?

> Surely the answer is not anywhere close to 95% !(  If it is that high, what
> reason is there not to believe in OIT ? )
>




From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep  6 15:17:54 2000
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 16:17:54 +0100
Subject: Urdu speakers
Message-ID: <161227061425.23782.5688321611887138268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>RB> This is miniscule compared to SA's "half the population" claim.

What SA was alluding to was that half the population of present day
Bangladesh are not native Bengalis (thus not "inferior" Dravids and Kafir
converts) at all but descendants of ?blue blooded? immigrant (liberators in
his parlance) Turks, Pathans, Arabs etc., who were duped into believing
that they are part of the native Bengali mass by the Indian (i.e Hindu)
infiltrated formerly Hindu  ?low? Bengalis. Thus the underlying message is
that the 50% of Bangladeshis were wrong in supporting the war for
liberation because they are not Bengalis at all!!. Further the message is
that they have more in common with the Arab, Turk and Pathan "derived"
Punjabi, Sindhi, Muhajir Pakistanis than with the "converted" natives.

Following is a list of revisions of history that I being attempted

1) Pakistanis irrespective of ethnicity are not of indigenous origin but
descendants of invading ?liberators?.

2) Urdu is of Turkish, Arab and Iranic origin.

3) 50% of Bangladeshis are descendants of the ?liberators?.

This is part of the revising of history, which is going on in Pakistan and
Bangladesh by the likes of Jamat e Islami, and other collaborators of the
genocide of the people of Bangladesh during the war for liberation in 1971.
There are scores of books, websites and discussion email groups where you
can find enough information on this regard. A cursory browsing of the
archives of a premier Bangladeshi discussion group
(www.egroups.com/list/alochona) will enlighten many of the efforts of such
revisionists.

It would be interesting to see what the E. Timorese collaborators would
come up as an excuse for their role in suppressing the E. Timorese
independence movement 20 years from now. May be they should start getting
lessons from sub continental revisionists :-)


Raveen




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Sep  6 15:21:23 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 16:21:23 +0100
Subject: Samyutta Nikaya on Sanskrit
In-Reply-To: <000401c01812$4bd67e00$5ad64082@jwalse01.tufts.edu>
Message-ID: <161227061427.23782.664644793389824830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>There is an edition of 25 Sanskrit sutras from the Sam.yuktaagama done by
>Chandrabhal Tripathi in 1962.
>
>Tripathi Chandrabhal, _Funfundzwanzig Sutras Des Nidanasamyukta_ (Berlin:
>Akademie Verlag, 1962).
>
>Joseph Walser
>Department of Comparative Religion
>114C Miner Hall
>Tufts University
>Medford, MA 02155
>ph# (617) 627-2322
>fax: (617) 627-3191

To avoid misunderstandings: This is not a translation from Pali (the
TheravAda-version of the text) into Sanskrit, but the (fragmentary)
Sanskritversion (found in Central Asia) of the SarvAstivAda school of
Buddhism. The SarvAstivAdins also seem originally to have used a
middelindic dialect, but this was, for all we know, not identical with Pali.

G.v.Simson

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Dmitri
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 8:32 PM
>> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>> Subject: Samyutta Nikaya on Sanskrit
>>
>>
>> Greetings, everyone!
>>
>> Is there a Sanskrit version of suttas from Samyutta Nikaya?
>> The original is in Pali -- was it translated into Sanskrit?
>> How close Pali lexicon is to Sanskrit?
>>
>> TIA,  Dmitri.
>>




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Sep  6 21:30:03 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 17:30:03 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061442.23782.12799430374622768245.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG>
Just one reason why Minoan or Harappan language is not PIE, because PIE was
confined to a relatively compact area, far off from either Greece or NW
India.
David Anthony, Shards of Speech, 1995, Antiquity, v. 69 "Terms for wheel,
axle and draft pole, and a verb meaning 'to go or convey in a vehicle'
suggest that PIE existed as a single language after 3500 B.C., when wheeled
vehicles were invented. PIE must have begun to disintegrate before 2000
B.C.: by 1500 B.C.
>
RB>
While the above is consistent with limited IE influence on minoan culture or
harappan culture. the 3500 BC and and 2000 BC are not hard dates.
hard dates are provided by greek 1200  BC, hittite 1800 BC and mitanni,
kassite 1300 BC This gives us a fuzzy snap shot and does not tells us how
contained the spread was before 2000 BC. There is a theory which says minoan
was related to phyrgian or hittite and developed into greek.
regards
RB




From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Wed Sep  6 18:34:52 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 19:34:52 +0100
Subject: Ideological distortions of MSS
Message-ID: <161227061429.23782.7559754351289158294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am pondering the following question:

Was the text of Pata~njali's Yoga Suutra altered in a deliberate fashion
to accomodate ideological, religious, sholastic, etc. agendas of
the past 1500 years?

The question, I'd like to ask indologists on this listserv is:
Is there a known sanskrit MSS of which two versions exists, those
two versions are different, and the difference might be attributed
to a deliberate editing of the earlier version to bind the meaning of
a passage towards a religious, ideological or scholastic dogma?

In particular, I am interested if the coming of Islam to India
resulted of any re-writing of sacred texts.

Thanks in advance,
                    Dmitri.




From dbgray62 at HOME.COM  Thu Sep  7 00:36:26 2000
From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 20:36:26 -0400
Subject: Loan Words
Message-ID: <161227061449.23782.1115988870381515173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology list members,

I am aware that there are many words from Sanskrit and other Indian
languages that have made their way into English, but I am wondering if
there are any works (monographs or articles) which deal with this issue.
 I would appreciate any references to such works.

Thanks,

David Gray




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep  6 20:37:38 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 20:37:38 +0000
Subject: kanchi Shankara Mutt
Message-ID: <161227061436.23782.12453090365375842442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sri Ganapathi/sivabgs

>I read the article written by Sri Vidyasankar ?Real History Of Kanchi Math
>(Re:Former President Inaugurates
)Celebrations? in the alt.hindu Newsgroup.
>This article was written on the major issues covered in  ?The weekly cover
>story? of the Illustrated weekly Of India (Sept.13,1987) ?K.P.Sunil.
>

Just to clarify who said what, where, and when -

1. This mailing list is Indology. It is not the alt.hindu newsgroup.

2. Your response is dated 4 Sep. 2000. The posting that you quote from
the archives of alt.hindu was sent on 3 Aug. 1994, more than six years ago.
Perhaps you might care to also respond to the points I have raised in the
following posts on Indology, posted between 1994 and 2000. This would make
this thread relevant to this list -

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9905&L=indology&P=R27362
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R13134
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0006&L=indology&P=R3995
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0006&L=indology&P=R4228
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0006&L=indology&P=R4367

3. A lot of the material that you have quoted is from the old magazine
article by Mr. K. P. Sunil. Those are his findings and statements, which I
had simply quoted then, and which I had used as a basis for forming my own
conclusions. Particularly, the statement, "Historians, however, hold that
the Kumbhakonam math was in verity a branch of the Sringeri math established
in 1821 AD..." is a verbatim quotation from Sunil's article in The
Illustrated Weekly of India, issue dated 13 September 1987.

Thank you for correcting a few dates re: Tanjavur Maratha history, about
which I was mistaken. For whatever it is worth, I hereby go on record, and
agree that in 1994, I was misinformed about the name of the Maratha king who
ruled Tanjavur in the year 1821 AD. Still, I fail to see how this
particularly settles the 150 year old controversy over the origins of the
Kanchi Matha.

>
>1.The  inscriptions relating to 1800 AD clearly mention the name of the
>Math as the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam and the modi documents of 18th and 19th
>century also do refer the institution as the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam and the
>Peetadhipathi as the Shankaracharya of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam.  Therefore
>the existence of Kanchi Shankara Math at Kumbakonam  during this period is
>proved beyond doubt.

Maybe so, but it does not prove that there was a Matha at Kanchipuram in the
year 1700, or even in the year 1750 or 1760. This is the period when an
institution came into being in Kumbhakonam, according to your dating. One
still has to reconcile your findings with the following -

1. Distinction between a "Matha" and a "Peetha". Every old reference to a
"kAmapITha" or "kAmakoTikA" refers to the Sricakra associated with the
Kamakshi temple in Kanchipuram. This is different from a Matha, which is a
monastery for ascetics.

2. Kanchipuram is not listed in any of the old Dasanami lists as the
location of a Sankara Matha. These lists name such minor institutions as
Sivaganga, Sankarankoil, Tirthahalli and Talakad in south India. Why not
Kanchipuram, if there was indeed a premier institution there?

3. It was the British Collector of Chingleput who appointed the
Sankaracharya of Kumbhakonam as the sole trustee of the Kanchi Kamakshi
temple, in the year 1842.

4. The hereditary priests of the Kamakshi temple protested against this
appointment, and complained to the British authorities that the "Kumbhakonam
Sankaracharya was a stranger to the country, and a professor of a different
creed." The Kumbhakonam Sankaracharyas were all from the well-connected and
powerful family of Govinda Dikshita. The priestly family of the Kamakshi
temple had already been dispossessed by the British. These petitions and
counter-petitions are available too, and indicate something contrary to the
standard history claimed by the Kanchi Matha. At the very least, it shows
that the claim of this Sankaracharya to the title of "Kanchi Kamakoti
Peethadhipati" was not universally accepted then. Moreover, even more than a
hundred years later, the priests of the Bangaru Kamakshi temple in Tanjavur
tried to legally block the Kanchi Matha and its Sankaracharya(s) from taking
over the administration and worship procedures of that temple. That they
failed is more a testament to the contemporary influence of the Kanchi Matha
than a consequence of its supposed antiquity.

5. All the heads of this institution, whether in Kumbhakonam or in
Kanchipuram, have been of the Sarasvati order. All the Dasanami traditions
unanimously assign this name suffix to the Sringeri Matha. It is only in
this nominal sense that it is said to be a "branch" of the Sringeri Matha.
The claim that Indra Sarasvati is the eleventh (and a special) suffix
assigned to Kanchi Matha has no traditional support. See
<listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0004&L=indology&P=R12608> for
details. After all, the name of the monastic order is "daSanAmI", not
"ekAdaSanAmI".

6. A. Singaravelu Mudaliar's Tamil encyclopedia (apitAna cintAmaNi, Asian
Educational Services, Delhi, 1981 [reprint of 1890's edition], page 1604)
says - "Aticankarar ... nAnku maTankaL tApittanar. .... pinnirintavarkaLAl
kumpakoNam, amanI, civakankai, kAkarla maTankaL uNTAyina." Again, no mention
of Kanchipuram, but as you can see, Kumbhakonam is mentioned.

7. An 1896 issue of the periodical "Brahma Vidya", published by the Advaita
Sabha in Kumbhakonam, mentions - "inta maTAtInam toTanki nAnku-aintu
paTTankaLAka ...", but says nothing about a prior history at Kanchipuram.
Note that this Advaita Sabha was a trust run by the Kumbhakonam Matha
itself.

As a result of all these contra-indications, a doubt arises, and I have to
ask the following question. When was the inscription made in the
Kumbheswarar temple? It relates an event from around 1800 AD, but was the
inscription put in there in the same year? Or did the inscription come into
being a few decades later? Does it prove anything more than the fact that
the Kumbhakonam Sankaracharya was already claiming the Kanchi Kamakoti
Peethadhipati title, something that we all know to have been a subject of
dispute?

>3.The date of this marathi  inscription was the 10th Feb.1822. According to
>this inscription Raja Sri Chathrapathi Serfoji Maharaja built the Temple of
>Chandramouleeswara (Chandramouleeswara Griham) in the Math.

Does *this* inscription use the term "Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham", or even a
general reference to Kanchipuram? Is there a reference to the supposed move
from Kanchipuram to Kumbhakonam just a few decades ago? That Serfoji gave a
grant to build a temple in Kumbhakonam does not say anything about
Kanchipuram, unless the contents of this inscription refer to the
Kumbhakonam Matha in terms of the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham.

.........

>essential to take into account all the material available during this
>period. Therefore, the Kumbakonam inscriptions and Modi Documents (which
>cover a period of more than hundred years) shall not be rejected with out
>assigning any reasons.

"Shall" not be rejected?? Whoever rejected them? The issue I raise is, which
100 years do they cover? Mostly the 19th century. My question to you is, is
there concrete information in your sources about a crucial period in the
18th century?

And again, to clarify, if you go back to the alt.hindu article from which
you have quoted, I have clearly indicated the statements that are due to the
journalist, Mr. K. P. Sunil, whom I have only quoted. As for myself, I am
willing to revise my opinion of the earliest date that is attested for a
Sankaracharya at Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, but only after personally going
through the primary sources. If your intention is that I should revise my
earlier statements on this issue, I need time to get hold of these texts and
examine them myself.

>5.The Letter written to SivajiII contains information about the

Letter written by whom? And when? According to your list, Sivaji II ruled
from 1832-1855, in which period falls the year 1842. This was the very
period when the Kumbhakonam Matha was acquiring and merging with the
Kamakshi temple, to become the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham. This is the very
period that is the subject of dispute. That this letter claims a past
history at Kanchipuram does not really make it so, without independent
sources to corroborate it. I can write a letter today to the Prime Minister
of India, making certain claims, but the mere existence of such a letter
would not prove the validity of its contents.

shifting of
>Kanchi Math head quarters from Kanchipuram to Kumbakonam during the period
>of Raja Prathapa Simhan. There are also records in connction with the Vyasa
>pooja Offerings made to the kanchi Kamakoti Peetadhipathi during the

I have no doubt that details of Vyasa Pooja in various places are available
after 1800, but I have not seen much detail about the documents from the
1760s. Let me ask you some specific questions about the only pre-19th
century documents you have quoted. On 22 August 200, you had written -

>01. Doc.No.21-6,20-38,3-45and 4-286
>
>?..H.H.Sankarachary was paid annually large sums of money for the
>conduct of worship of Chandramouleeswar and of the Vyasa Pooja in the >
>solar month of Ashada.This grant continued perhaps upto 1798AD?

Who is the author of this statement? What is the original source being
quoted? Who paid the large sums of money annually? What was the name of this
Sankarachary? Is he referred to as the head of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham in
the *original* manuscripts? Or is this something that is being read into the
manuscript by the author of the book you quote? Is there an original
manuscript here, or is the reference only from secondary sources that were
written in the mid-19th century, the period of dispute? And why the
"perhaps" in the last sentence?

>03.Doc.No.4-74 to 85
>
>?
During the reign of  Prathapa Simha (1739-1763AD) the head of Kanchi
>Peetam, while he was camping at Udayar Palayam, was induced to go to
>Thanjavur.The Pontiff, who wanted to reside at some place on the
>banks of the Kaveri, preferred to reside at Kumbhakonam.Thereupon the >
>Rajah built a mutt for him at the Dabir Agraharam, gifted him with
>inam lands,utensils of silver and gold,jewels,horses and elephants.?

Who is the author of this statement in English? What is the wording of the
original grant of inam, utensils, horses and elephants? What are the name
and institutional affiliations of the donee? What was the date of the grant?
Where was the grant executed - in Udayarpalayam or in Tanjavur or in
Kanchipuram? Are specific details like year, month, tithi etc. available? Is
the original grant available, or is this information extracted from a
secondary reference in a manuscript or letter dating from the mid-19th
century?

>1760s.(Sri VidyaSankar might have the curiosity of  discovering more
info.
>from the 1700s. But  this can not reduce the importance of the

Pardon me, but I certainly have the curiosity to find out who was where in
the 1700s, and for a very specific reason. The Kanchi Matha's official list
is reliable only after this period. The dates given in this list for
Gangadharendra Sarasvati, Paramasivendra Sarasvati and Sadasiva Brahmendra
are all quite jumbled up. All these people should have lived between 1675
and 1740 AD.

documents
>shown in support of my contention that the Kanchi Math had come to
>Kumbhakonam during the period of Raja Prathapa simhan only as an
>independent Kanchi Math and it is highly ridiculous to claim it as a sub
>math of  Sringeri).

Given that the said affiliation to Sringeri derives from the Sarasvati
suffix, which is admittedly nominal, and given all the earlier sources that
do not mention Kanchipuram at all, this is not so ridiculous a claim after
all. It is also not a hundredth as ridiculous as the Kanchi Matha's claims -

a) that Sringeri is a sub-Matha of the Kudali Matha,
b) that Vidyatirtha was the head of Kanchi Matha in the 14th century, &
c) that Vidyaranya was deputized from Kanchipuram, to "revive" a Sringeri
Matha that had already become "extinct", prior to the 14th century.

It may be that a Kumbhakonam Matha came into being quite independently, some
time in the 18th century. As it is, even institutions that were originally
established as branches of a main institution eventually became independent
institutions with independent lineages and administrations. However, the
argument that it was a Kanchi Matha that first moved to Kumbhakonam and then
returned to Kanchipuram needs stronger support than anything I have seen
hitherto. I would be willing to revise my opinion only if well attested
primary sources from the 18th century specifically refer to a Sankaracharya
of the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetha, or at least a Sankaracharya of a Kanchi
Matha, if not the Kamakoti Peetha. If such sources exist, one would still
have to square their contents with those of the petitions submitted by the
Kamakshi temple priests in the mid-19th century. If the only solid
references to the 18th century period are from manuscripts and letters
written in the mid-19th century, do pardon my inclination to take them with
a pinch of salt.

Yours,
Vidyasankar

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From tawady at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep  6 20:02:57 2000
From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 21:02:57 +0100
Subject: Communalism and rewriting of Indian history
Message-ID: <161227061431.23782.11963719514532308217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

COMMUNALISM AND THE REWRITING OF INDIAN HISTORY

How do politics of today color the lenses through which we examine the
past?  Are the dominant communal forces in India rewriting the
country's history to create new 'enemies'? Or are they merely correcting
errors of previous historians?

Please join us in a discussion with the eminent historian
  Prof. K.N. PANIKKAR
     Centre for Historical Studies
        Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi

Topic:   OUTSIDER AS ENEMY--The Politics of Rewriting History
  (http://www.stanford.edu/group/sia/Events/Panikkar.html)

When:  Sept 9th, Saturday  6:00 p.m.
Where:   Gates Info Sciences Bldg, Rm 104
  Stanford University

Prof.Panikkar will address the relationship of history to issues of
power,politics and censorship in the context of the recent controversy
involving the withdrawal of two volumes on modern history by the Indian
Council of Historical Research (ICHR).

*** Please scroll down for more info. on Prof.Panikkar, directions to
and Parking at Stanford ***

Directions:
http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?193,199
Parking: Free on weekends, Across the road from the bldg
Sponsors: Stanford India Association
  (http://www.stanford.edu/group/sia/main.html)
  Association for India's Development (Bay Area Chapter)
  (http://www.aidindia.org)
  Graduate Student Council, Stanford University
  (http://gsc.stanford.edu/index.htm)
  Asia/ Pacific Research Center
  (http://aparc.stanford.edu)
Contact: For more information, please visit the website
  http://www.stanford.edu/group/sia/Events/Panikkar.html

About the Speaker:

Prof. K. N. Panikkar teaches at the Centre for Historical Studies,
Jawaharlal Nehru University. He is the Chairman of the Archives on
Contemporary History and formerly the Dean of the School of Social
Sciences, JNU. He is associated with several universities and
institutions in India and abroad. He has been the President of the Modern
History Section of the Indian History Congress and a member of the Indian
Council for Social Science Research and the Indian Council for Historical
Research. He has also been a member of several academic and research
organisations and a visiting professor to universities abroad.

Prof. Panikkar's main area of current research is intellectual-cultural
history of modern Indian on which he has written extensively. His
publications include, Culture, Ideology and Hegemony--Intellectuals and
Social Consciousness in Colonial India; Culture and Consciousness in
Modern India; Against Lord and State--Religion and Peasant Uprisings in
Malabar; Communal Threat, Secular Challenge  and British Diplomacy in
North India. Among the books he has edited the latest is "The Concerned
Indian's Guide to Communalism."

Regards
Raveen




From pfreund at MUM.EDU  Thu Sep  7 02:04:34 2000
From: pfreund at MUM.EDU (Peter Freund)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 21:04:34 -0500
Subject: Ideological distortions of MSS
Message-ID: <161227061454.23782.9279271387237768322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

    The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali may not be the ideal text for such a
study.  The text has been preserved rather rigidly by its inclusion in the
body of Vyasa's commentary on the Yoga Sutras.  All of the main published
recensions have Vyasa's commentary as their source, and do not seem to
diverge greatly.  If you compare the many published texts of the Yoga Sutras
you will find that the only divergence stems from disagreement as to which
words and phrases in the body of Vyasa's work are the original sutras, and
which are Vyasa's commentary.
    As has been discussed previously in this forum, there has been
discovered an edition of the Yoga Sutras attributed to Shankara which has a
dozen more sutras, not found in Vyasa's commentary.  But would Shankara, of
unsurpassed intellect,  have to stoop to doctoring any text in order to
accomodate his viewpoint?

    Rather than doctoring the text itself, much simpler and more difficult
to challenge is the process of adjusting the meaning of words.  The drift of
meanings of words over the centuries makes it essential for commentators to
step forward generation after generation to try to reestablish the original
meaning in the light of contemporary understanding.

    There is nevertheless one case where there is evidence of the evolution
of a text--either through actual change in the words, or in the
understanding of the meaning of the words--and that is Surya Siddhanta, an
astronomical text in the field of Jyotish.  Sengupta in his introduction to
Burgess' translation of the Surya Siddhanta, published by Motilal
Banarsidass, 1989,  describes the evidence  from VarAha's Paxca SiddhAntikA
as to the apparent condition of the Surya Siddhanta text in VarAha's time.

Sincerely,

Peter Freund




Dmitri wrote:

> I am pondering the following question:
>
> Was the text of Pata~njali's Yoga Suutra altered in a deliberate fashion
> to accomodate ideological, religious, sholastic, etc. agendas of
> the past 1500 years?
>
> The question, I'd like to ask indologists on this listserv is:
> Is there a known sanskrit MSS of which two versions exists, those
> two versions are different, and the difference might be attributed
> to a deliberate editing of the earlier version to bind the meaning of
> a passage towards a religious, ideological or scholastic dogma?
>
> In particular, I am interested if the coming of Islam to India
> resulted of any re-writing of sacred texts.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>                     Dmitri.




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Sep  6 20:27:56 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 21:27:56 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061433.23782.15165286114216051582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

So, 95% to 96% of the vocabulary of Rigvedic Sanskrit is "not foreign".
"Not foreign" presumably means that the words conform to the general
patterns for RV Sanskrit words.

Of the not-foreign RV Sanskrit words, how many are Indo-European in origin ?
(i.e., have corresponding words in a sufficient number of other
Indo-European languages to be confident that these words were in
Proto-Indo-European, or were borrowed sufficiently early -- well before
Indo-Aryan entry into India -- from other languages during the theorized
Indo-European language dispersal) ?

Surely the answer is not anywhere close to 95% !(  If it is that high, what
reason is there not to believe in OIT ? )

Thank you,
-arun gupta






Arlo Griffiths  <griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL> wrote:

[snip, for brevity]
>In Indo-Iranian Journal 38 (1995), p. 261, Kuiper was able to present a
>more exact figure: "We owe it to the computer that it is now known. A Dr.
>Alexander Lubotsky kindly informs me, the sum total [of Rigvedic lexemes -
>AG] is 100063. The percentage of the foreign  works [sic, read: words]
>listed there [in Kuiper 1991] is not, accordingly, ``at least five per
>cent'' ..., but 3.8 per cent. If only `words sensu stricto' were counted
>(As in Aryans, p. 95), the percentage might be well over 4 per cent."




From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Sep  6 20:49:55 2000
From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 22:49:55 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061438.23782.11193802883265821443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I don't see exactly which point you're trying to make. I don't know whether
figures are available, but I would guess that of the ca. 95% 'non-foreign'
words in the .RV a very vast majority can be reconstructed quite safely to
PIE.
    What is your point about the OIT?

Arlo Griffiths

----------
>From: Arun Gupta <suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Re: Sanskrit and PIE
>Date: woe, 6 sep 2000 10:27 PM
>

> So, 95% to 96% of the vocabulary of Rigvedic Sanskrit is "not foreign".
> "Not foreign" presumably means that the words conform to the general
> patterns for RV Sanskrit words.
>
> Of the not-foreign RV Sanskrit words, how many are Indo-European in origin ?
> (i.e., have corresponding words in a sufficient number of other
> Indo-European languages to be confident that these words were in
> Proto-Indo-European, or were borrowed sufficiently early -- well before
> Indo-Aryan entry into India -- from other languages during the theorized
> Indo-European language dispersal) ?
>
> Surely the answer is not anywhere close to 95% !(  If it is that high, what
> reason is there not to believe in OIT ? )
>
> Thank you,
> -arun gupta
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Arlo Griffiths  <griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL> wrote:
>
> [snip, for brevity]
>>In Indo-Iranian Journal 38 (1995), p. 261, Kuiper was able to present a
>>more exact figure: "We owe it to the computer that it is now known. A Dr.
>>Alexander Lubotsky kindly informs me, the sum total [of Rigvedic lexemes -
>>AG] is 100063. The percentage of the foreign  works [sic, read: words]
>>listed there [in Kuiper 1991] is not, accordingly, ``at least five per
>>cent'' ..., but 3.8 per cent. If only `words sensu stricto' were counted
>>(As in Aryans, p. 95), the percentage might be well over 4 per cent."




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Sep  6 22:46:37 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 23:46:37 +0100
Subject: Ideological distortions of MSS
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000090619345304@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061445.23782.375262121443187936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There's a faked up birch bark MS of the Bhagavadgita in the Rasashala
Aushadhaalaya collection made by Jivaram Kalidasa Shastri (aka
Charanatirtha Maharaj) in Gondal.  (The "Gondal" collection, and the MS,
are now in Jamnagar, in the library of the Gujarat Ayurvedic University.)

This MS has special extra verses which are said to make it a special and
unique copy of the BG, having ancient material missing in all other MSS.

I think Jivaram was duped, but he was a clever man with lots of editing
experience, so he must have been at least very willing to be duped.  He
published a text and translation of BG based on this MS.

I'm sorry, but I haven't paid enough attention to the text to know what
the import of these "newly discovered original verses" is.

--
Dominik Wujastyk




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Sep  6 22:49:33 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 00 23:49:33 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061447.23782.6346762312835500048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If it is true that 95% of the Rig Vedic (RV) vocabulary is of Indo-European
origin ( please note that this is different from "not foreign"), then

Either the RV people did not encounter any significant number of
non-Indo-Europeans for any significant period of time before composition of
the RV, or the RV people had some exceptionally strong protection of
language in their culture that kept them from borrowing from
non-Indo-European languages after such encounters.

For the latter option, there are three possibilities :

1. It could be that the RV was composed and frozen in an extremely short
period of time AFTER the First Significant Encounters with
non-Indo-Europeans (abbr. FSE)).  But this seems unlikely.

2. If the RV was composed over a few centuries after FSE, then any
hypothetical mechanism of maintaining purity of a living language over a few
centuries has to be demonstrated.  Seems unlikely to me.

3. It could also be that the RV was composed after FSE in what was then
already a dead (and hence frozen) language.  The dead language was still in
use by elite presumably because of earlier, now-lost sacred material.

For the former option (RV composed before FSE) the possibilities are :

4. North India was the scene of FSE (remnants of the Harappan culture), and
RV was composed before entry into India.  However, RV does seem to have
Indian geography. Seems unlikely.

5. North India was already Indo-European speaking so FSE was much later, by
which time RV was more or less frozen ( e.g., encounter with Dravidian
languages in the south).  Moreover the North Indian I-E itself would have
very few borrowed words from non-IE.

Other Indo-European language incursions into much more urbanized and smaller
non-IE areas (e.g. Hittite) show the influence of non-IE.  It seems
incredible that Indo-Aryans could have effected a total language replacement
over a much wider area, much less urban area, much larger population without
any effect on their language unless possibility 3. or possibility 5.
applies.

But if possibility 5. applies, I-E language must have been in India for a
very long time before the RV period -- the Indus Valley civilization must
have had as dominant language an I-E language, say from 3000 BC.  Then the
original IE homeland moves closer to India -- not exactly OIT, but the OIT
folks will be satisfied if IVC was I-E.

That is why it is hard to believe that 95% or more of the RV Sanskrit
vocabulary is demonstrably I-E in origin. Of course, possibility 3. remains,
and I have no idea either way.

-arun gupta




From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Thu Sep  7 01:33:24 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 02:33:24 +0100
Subject: Loan Words
Message-ID: <161227061452.23782.6794106412305657344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The book

Dhaatu-Paa.tha
The Roots of Language

Sthephen Hill and Peter Harrison
Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers Pvt.Ltd. 1997
ISBN 81-215-0814-0

has an appendix
Excursus in Greek, Latin, Anglo-Saxon and English
which lists all dhaatu along with their derivatives/closely related
in roots in greek, latin, anglo-saxon and english.

That's at least a start.
Dmitri.




From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep  7 13:31:04 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 06:31:04 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit and Slavonic
Message-ID: <161227061467.23782.17737271247183829749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello everybody,
I wonder if there had been any comparative study of
Sanskrit and Old Slavonic.
               Marina Orelskaya



__________________________________________________
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From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Thu Sep  7 05:58:05 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 06:58:05 +0100
Subject: Ideological distortions of MSS
Message-ID: <161227061457.23782.4213527338934747660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Then, the question becomes:

 1. Is Vyasa's commentary quoting Yoga Suutra without edits?
 2. Is Vyasa's commentary preserved without edits to it?

I did compare half a dozen of translations and they do differ very slightly.
That points at the single source which might not be the original.

Let's put the same question differently:

At the time of Vyasa's commentary (and later on),
what was the usual way to copy Sanskrit MSS?

A. Was it a responsibility of a member of brahman caste?
B. Was there "peer review" of a copy?
C. Was there a practice to keep copies a MS in several locations?
D. Was there an established procedure on copiing MSS, like a code of
  conduct for a copyist? (like "one has to copy MS as it is even if
  the meaning is incomprehensible")

Sincerely, Dmitri.




From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Thu Sep  7 15:51:54 2000
From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 08:51:54 -0700
Subject: Digitization of Perunkatai text
Message-ID: <161227061471.23782.5371271765610748903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On behalf of my son I am sending the following:

"I plan to make the electronic text of Perunkatai freely available to all on the web. The work is about one-quarter finished. I hope no one will go to the trouble of duplicating my efforts. The keying is done according to the UBC INDIC format. Prospective users should have no difficulty in converting it to whatever format they find convenient. They will be given the keyboard layout, should they need it."

Muktak Aklujkar <muktak at interchange.ubc.ca>




From boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE  Thu Sep  7 07:49:50 2000
From: boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE (Heike Boedeker)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 09:49:50 +0200
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
In-Reply-To: <200009062303.HWX01762@m1000.netcologne.de>
Message-ID: <161227061460.23782.6421125907797367049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:49:33 +0100,  Arun Gupta <suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> 
wrote:
>...
>Either the RV people did not encounter any significant number of 
>non-Indo-Europeans for any significant period of time before composition 
>of the RV,

Not necessarily: this assumed that groups of speakers met as if they were 
individual persons (which, of course, is the Bion'ian identification of the 
group with the mother's body) who then as a rule exchanged linguistic 
elements and/or structures, just as people otherwise exchange greetings, 
goods, influenza viruses, whatever.

>or the RV people had some exceptionally strong protection of language in 
>their culture that kept them from borrowing from non-Indo-European 
>languages after such encounters.

Likewise not necessarily: it merely means "they" (to accept this shortcut 
for the time being) didn't engage in interactions with identifiable non-IE 
speaking groups which had left linguistic traces (i.e. it does not mean 
they needn't have had any such interactions...).

>Other Indo-European language incursions into much more urbanized and 
>smaller non-IE areas (e.g. Hittite) show the influence of non-IE.

The Hittites, or actually the Anatolian branch, had quite an exceptional 
love of "going native" (very much more than the Greeks which had been 
mentioned on this list in similar contexts), and esp. the Hittites had been 
exposed to Mesopotamian types of culture where they i.a. picked up a ductus 
of cuneiform writing close to Old Babylonian before they moved north 
towards their classical habitats in Anatolia, then being forced to use 
writing on a larger scale, but also e.g. in their way of writing history 
displaying a style of their own which meets our present-day criteria of 
accurateness very much better.

>It seems incredible that Indo-Aryans could have effected a total language 
>replacement over a much wider area, much less urban area, much larger 
>population without any effect on their language unless possibility 3. or 
>possibility 5. applies.

Why not simply go with what is historically attested? Namely that there is 
no such cultural continuity as in the Hittite case? The IAs needen't have 
behaved like the Hittites, or even at least like the Greeks, simply because 
they were speakers of a IE lg! It also isn't just enough to point out that 
Hattic, Minoan or the IVC were "superior cultures", obviously the IVC 
simply didn't impress them too much (for whatever reason, and be it that it 
with the climate becoming dryer around 1800 BCE was on the decline anyway).

>But if possibility 5. applies, I-E language must have been in India for a
>very long time before the RV period -- the Indus Valley civilization must
>have had as dominant language an I-E language, say from 3000 BC.

I guess this is more of opening a family-size can of worms because it means 
asking what IE means at various stages in combination with a Joh. Nichols 
type of spread-over-previous-spread idea. It allows for a regressus ad 
infinitum of PIE, Pre-PIE, Pre-PPIE etc. etc. Apart from the fact that it 
methodologically is anachronistic to recur to such a Schmidt'ian type of 
wave theory.

>Then the original IE homeland moves closer to India -- not exactly OIT, 
>but the OIT folks will be satisfied if IVC was I-E.

Again: not necessarily... to stay with Nichols' scenario, spread centers 
may shift, e.g. from IE via Iranian to Turkic and Mongolian, whereby she 
even dares to speculate whether a Pre-IE spread might have been Kartvelian 
(Linguistic Diversity in Space and Time, p.313, Fn. 3). Whereby, in a sense 
then, of course, the ultimate IE spread center would be Western Iranian, 
which gave the recent thread on Urdu/Hindi a nicely ironic spin... though, 
on a  more serious note, nicely illustrating what such an armchair model 
really might mean. On the other hand, I think, if we want to halfway 
intelligently speculate on cultural correlates, we should have a closer 
look at the South West and South East Asian centers of "Neolithic 
Revolutions", while in Central Asia there wasn't so much happening, which 
might have constantly supplied the "superior cultures" at the Eurasian 
"fringes" with constant waves of "fresh immigrants" (please note that I'm 
not simply endorsing the Gamqreli3e-Ivanov scenario). Also typologically, 
as a rule, agriculturalists do not develop out of nomads, just as nomads 
(both in the Central Asian and Ancient Near Eastern case) tend to remain 
vitally dependent on neighboring agriculturalists. Further, e.g. the mere 
fact that Kurgan I (btw, for a barbarian wild steppe bunch quite remarkably 
able for coexistance with late Dnepr-Donec and Pre-Cucuteni III) had 
domesticated horses does not warrant an assumption like that there was a 
nomadic confederation like those very much later on including Iranian, 
Turkic and Mongolian peoples, not to speak of that they were IE speaking, 
or even that PIE originated as a "koin? of the steppes".

All the best,

Heike




From Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE  Thu Sep  7 08:00:06 2000
From: Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE (Graefe)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 10:00:06 +0200
Subject: Loan words
Message-ID: <161227061462.23782.13731389585383943111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Mr. Gray,
Hobson-Jobson, A Glossary of Colloquial Anglo Indian Words and Phrases, and of
Kindred Terms, Etymological, Historical, Geographical and Discursive.
Though first published in 1896 it is still very useful.
My edition is Rupa Paperback 1994.

Regards Ursula Graefe




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Thu Sep  7 10:51:05 2000
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 12:51:05 +0200
Subject: Ideological distortions of MSS
Message-ID: <161227061465.23782.10791527037683690880.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For those of you who read Italian:
You can compare with *Aforismi dello Yoga (YogasUtra) by Patanjali*,
transl. by Paolo Magnone -- Torino: Promolibri, 1991 -- Pp. 183, ITL
24,000.
It has been translated into Italian with the commentary RajamArtaNDa of
the king Bhoja (11st cent.), which accompanies each verse.
(There are two other translations into English of Bhoja's commentary,
both of the last century and somehow incomplete: by J. R. Ballantyne and
G. Z. Deva in 1852-1868, and by R. Mitra in 1883).
You can read the English presentation of the book in
http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ijts/vol3_no1/titles.asp

EG

--
Dr. Enrica Garzilli
Dept. of Philosophical and Linguistic Sciences
University of Perugia
Piazza Morlacchi, 11 -06123 Perugia, Italy
Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Tantric Studies
Journ. of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org
*********************************************************

Peter Freund wrote:
>
>     The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali may not be the ideal text for such a
> study.  The text has been preserved rather rigidly by its inclusion in the
> body of Vyasa's commentary on the Yoga Sutras.  All of the main published
> recensions have Vyasa's commentary as their source, and do not seem to
> diverge greatly.  If you compare the many published texts of the Yoga Sutras
> you will find that the only divergence stems from disagreement as to which
> words and phrases in the body of Vyasa's work are the original sutras, and
> which are Vyasa's commentary.




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Thu Sep  7 08:44:00 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 14:14:00 +0530
Subject: pie/skt
Message-ID: <161227061463.23782.10828238602180231347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There  are terms in Rv which are clearly non-IE: ulukhala.Then, Indo-Iranian maksi is believed to be borrowed from the Finno-Ugric.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  7 14:42:11 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 14:42:11 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061469.23782.7690779078283173042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
If it is true that 95% of the Rig Vedic (RV) vocabulary is of
Indo-European origin ( please note that this is different from
"not foreign"), then

Either the RV people did not encounter any significant number of
non-Indo-Europeans for any significant period of time before
composition of the RV, or the RV people had some exceptionally
strong protection of language in their culture that kept them
from borrowing from non-Indo-European languages after such
encounters.

For the latter option, there are three possibilities :

1. It could be that the RV was composed and frozen in an extremely
short period of time AFTER the First Significant Encounters with
non-Indo-Europeans (abbr. FSE)).  But this seems unlikely.

2. If the RV was composed over a few centuries after FSE, then any
hypothetical mechanism of maintaining purity of a living language
over a few centuries has to be demonstrated.  Seems unlikely to me.
>>>

It appears that the RV people had exceptionally strong protection of
language in their culture. Itinerant priests reciting the RV
"tape recordings" at public ceremonies. The brahmins from other
places would correct any mistakes creeping in. This oral transmission
mechanism through generations across vast India. Even more
remarkable, because very few variants in the RV orally transmitted
for 1500-2000 years before being committed to writing. Vedic
culture has little to do with the origins of writing in India.

Regarding your question of why only 5% are non-IE in the RV,
refer Indologists like Prof. Witzel's writings in the archives.

"Moreover, even if it could be established that the percentage of
foreign words in the Rgveda was considerably less than that of
later texts, the explanation could well be a cultural one. Many
scholars such as Thieme have drawn attention to the linguistic
puritanism of the Vedic texts. These are sacerdotal hymns which
were preserved by a culturally distinct group
of specialists who, like any elite, took pains to isolate their
speech from common vulgarisms." (p. 79, E.F.Bryant, Lingusitic
substrata and the Indigenous Aryan debate, in Aryan and Non-Aryan
in India, 1999).

This "linguistic puritanism" of the RV Aryans is what probably
prevented them to include many Dravidian words encountered by them.

Regards,
N. Ganesan



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From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Thu Sep  7 14:58:28 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 15:58:28 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061474.23782.7736922302314856789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajarshee Banerjee wrote:
> Hard dates are provided by greek 1200  BC, hittite 1800 BC and
mitanni,
> kassite 1300.

Are these dates so "hard" ?   I allude especially to the dating of
Hittite materials.  I may be wrong, but my impression is that much of
Hittite dating relies on Egyptian chronology.  There are a number of
serious Egyptologists who believe that the conventional chronology for
Egypt is wrong in many respects -- often because the later parallel
dynasties were counted sequentially rather than concurrently.   For a
well-argued presentation see D. Rohl's "A Test of Time" (Century 1995)
who presents a detailed revised Egyptian chronology.

The main Egyptian rulers who had contact with the Hittites, and whose
dates are thus used for the Hittites, were:

Akhenaten (the Amarna letters)  conventionally c1300 BCE to be revised
to c980 BCE
and
Ramesses II (battle of Qadesh) conventionally c1200 BCE to be revised
to c930 BCE.

These dates fit events in neighbouring countries (Israel etc) better,
so if these revised dates hold good, then the linguistic status of
Hittite needs to be re-examined -- its likely origins then would
probably fall nearer to early Greek.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Thu Sep  7 20:45:10 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 16:45:10 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061480.23782.16217779655918580559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

These dates fit events in neighbouring countries (Israel etc) better, so if
these revised dates hold good, then the linguistic status of Hittite needs
to be re-examined -- its likely origins then would probably fall nearer to
early Greek.
RB> Would this also shift the chronology of the mitannian treaty and kassite
records. How does this tie in with assyrian babylonian records.
As far as the the identity of IE component of the mitannians is concerned,
it can be conjectured they form a separate branch from IIr and are already
differentiated into IA.
This is also reinforced by the fact that
1) avestan holds the asuras as good people and the devas and indra as
enemies to be vanquished. In contrast a typical vedic line up including
indra are mentioned as witnesses in the hittite-mitannian treaty. In the
indian tradition it is ofcourse the devas who are the heros.
2) the name ashur is a common one for the semetic assyrian rulers which
replaced the kassite, mittanian rule.or maybe itis a coincidence.
If we assume that IE speakers made their way through syria, iran, into
western india we should see some hurrian and other loan words in vedic.
Otherwise we assume that IE speakers reached india first differentiated into
IA and IIr, and then moved west encountering the hurrian language. the IIr a
more westerly branch associated more closely with the asuras.
RB




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep  7 18:50:41 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 18:50:41 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061478.23782.1602865555090612665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. S. Hodge wrote:
<<<
I allude especially to the dating of
Hittite materials.  I may be wrong, but my impression is that much of
Hittite dating relies on Egyptian chronology.  There are a number of
serious Egyptologists who believe that the conventional chronology
for Egypt is wrong in many respects -- often because the later
parallel dynasties were counted sequentially rather than
concurrently.   For a well-argued presentation see D. Rohl's "A
Test of Time" (Century 1995) who presents a detailed revised
Egyptian chronology. The main Egyptian rulers who had contact
with the Hittites, and whose dates are thus used for the Hittites,
were: Akhenaten (the Amarna letters)  conventionally c1300 BCE to
be revised to c980 BCE and Ramesses II (battle of Qadesh)
conventionally c1200 BCE to be revised to c930 BCE.

These dates fit events in neighbouring countries (Israel etc) better,
so if these revised dates hold good, then the linguistic status of
Hittite needs to be re-examined -- its likely origins then would
probably fall nearer to early Greek.
>>>

Interesting to see if this bringing forward of the dating of
Hittite materials holds true. Prof. Drews suggests a late date of
1750 BCE for the PIE breakup. While his theory of Anatolia as PIE
homeland is probably less likely, if the Hittite dates are late by
300 yrs. than usually assumed,  the PIE breakup date will move
forward too.

Indology archives, 20-10-98 thru' 10-11-98.
(Subject: 1) PIE breakup in ca. 1750 B.C., 2) method of dating RV III
3) Paired horse and PIE breakup).

Robert Drews, The coming of the Greeks: Indo-European conquests
in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton University press, 1988.
page 197:

"An alternative picture is more likely. At the end of the third
millennium, the PIE-speaking community was no larger than the
Hurrian, the Sumerian, the Hattic, or the Proto-Anatolian and was
only a fraction the size of the Semitic. The PIE-speaking community
remained intact,  playing no significant historical role, until the
second quarter of the second millennium. In the late seventeenth or
early sixteenth century, individuals and then whole communities of
PIE speakers began leaving their native lands (probably in the lake
district of eastern Anatolia). None of these movements of PIE
speakers involved a population much larger than that
of one Mesopotamian city of the first rank. Nor were the movements
Wanderungen at all. The relocations - some of them apparently by sea-
were well planned and organized, and their leaders knew where they
were going and what they would do when they got there. The PIE
speakers' object in leaving their native lands was to take control
of societies that were vulnerable and that could profitably be
exploited."

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR  Thu Sep  7 17:48:18 2000
From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 19:48:18 +0200
Subject: Sloka from Skanda Purana
Message-ID: <161227061476.23782.12465236915606509202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

?Please, I need very much, sloka is from Garuda Purana, purva khanda 231.3
can anyone give us the diacritics for the sloka using the HARVARD-KYOTO
METHOD?

bhaj ityesa vai dhatuh sevayam parikirtitah
tasmat seva budhaih prokta bhaktih sadhana-bhuyasi

Thank you.

Yashoda devi dasi
?
?




From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Fri Sep  8 00:07:15 2000
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 20:07:15 -0400
Subject: Yogavasistha movies
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000090501214565@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061484.23782.11600338560918773471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone know if any movies have been made of the Yogavasistha in
India?




From amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Sep  8 04:41:15 2000
From: amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Mr. M.M. AGRAWAL)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 21:41:15 -0700
Subject: new publication
Message-ID: <161227061473.23782.594861503147188110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am pleased to announce to all members of Indology List the publication of 
BRAHMASUUTRA-NIMBAARKA-BHAA.SYA
with three commentaries 
1. Vedaanta-kaustubha of "Sriinivaasaacaarya
2. Vedaanta-kaustubha-prabhaa of Ke"savakaa"smiiri bha.t.ta.
3. Bhaavadiipikaa of Amolakaraama "Saastrii"
edited and annoted by M.M. Agrawal, Sanskrit Department, Delhi University.
This is published in 4 volumes by Chaukhamba Sanskrit Pratishthan , Delhi.
it is now for the first time that this work with three commentaries altogether is brought to light with notes etc. . It is available at the following address:
38 UA, Bungalow Road,
Jawaher Nagar,
Post Box No. 2113,
Delhi-110007.

MADAN MOHAN AGRAWAL




From MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM  Fri Sep  8 02:05:23 2000
From: MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM (Mathias Metzger)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 22:05:23 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit and Slavonic
Message-ID: <161227061489.23782.15293565075345792967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Although I don't know about a study dealing exclusively with the topic you
have in mind I'd suggest to have a look at T. Burrow's "The Sanskrit
Language" (London 1955) which i.a. deals in some detail with interesting
parallels between Sanskrit and Slavonic (although some of the observations
therein might have to be taken with a pinch of salt maybe).
Best regards,
Mathias




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Sep  7 22:39:16 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 00 23:39:16 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061482.23782.13771434813273578536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to Dr. Robert A. Hatch on a University of Florida
web-site, the problems with Egyptian chronology are long-standing --

Quote

Thus by the third century B.C. virtually all problems connected with Egyptian
chronology were already known, though unsolved. Manetho, the Egyptian priest
writing his famous Egyptian History points to most of them.

End quote.

I would have thought that the archaelogists would have sought independent
estimates of dates from the various physical artifacts found -- e.g., carbon
dating of horse bones. Apparently not !

-arun gupta




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Fri Sep  8 00:16:48 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 01:16:48 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061485.23782.10743758688121019673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arun Gupta wrote:

> I would have thought that the archaelogists would have sought
independent
> estimates of dates from the various physical artifacts found --
e.g., carbon
> dating of horse bones. Apparently not !

Though not well-publicized, some material from the grave of
Tutankhamun (son of Akhenaten) was carbon-dated and the dates seem to
confirm the revised chronology.  However, those who prefer to retain
the conventional dating get out of this difficulty by claiming
(unconvincingly ?) that this material derives from the time
Tutankhamun's tomb was resealed following a break-in by grave-robbers.
It seems as though Egyptology is yet another field where evidence is
treated selectively :)

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Fri Sep  8 00:43:34 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 01:43:34 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061487.23782.6458977524156737698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajarshi Banerjee wrote:

> RB> Would this also shift the chronology of the mitannian treaty and
kassite
> records.
Presumably, the answer must be yes.

> How does this tie in with assyrian babylonian records.
It also seems that some aspects of Assyrian / Babylonian chronology
must also be revised as, perhaps surprisingly, elements of that
chronology are actually derived from the conventional Egyptian one.
It can also be shown that a similar problem to the Egyptian one, that
of parallel rulers, also occurs in the Assyrian king list -- Assyria
was at times a divided kingdom (north/south).  But the details are
complex so I suggest you refer to Rohl's book I mentioned previously
as he deals with the Assyrian/Babylonian question -- whether it
contradicts the revised Egyptian chronology.   Rohl's opinion is that
any problems are not insurmountable.

I cannot comment on the other points you raise as they are well
outside my range of expertise.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  8 05:57:02 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 06:57:02 +0100
Subject: Ideological distortions of MSS
Message-ID: <161227061490.23782.9895066774816613025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dmitri <dmitris at PIPELINE.COM> wrote:

>The question, I'd like to ask indologists on this listserv is:
>Is there a known sanskrit MSS of which two versions exists, those
>two versions are different, and the difference might be attributed
>to a deliberate editing of the earlier version to bind the meaning of
>a passage towards a religious, ideological or scholastic dogma?

Rather than the yogasUtras or similar texts, it seems to me that you would
have better luck finding widely different versions of hagiographic texts.
The Sankaravijaya of anantAnandagiri (usually attributed to Anandagiri, but
mistakenly) comes to mind. Compare the 1868 Bibliotheca Indica edition with
the 1971 Madras edition. There are two distinct sets of mss. for this text
that cannot be easily reconciled with each other, as mentioned in the
preface to the Madras edition. There are quite a few indications that one
set of mss. represents a reworking of an older version of the text.

Within the more standard sUtra-s and their commentaries, it is perhaps not
very well known that as compared to all known earlier commentators, the
Dvaitin AnandatIrtha (madhva) has a very different number (total) and
numbering of the vedAntasUtras. Sankara, bhAskara and rAmAnuja mutually
differ only in very minor ways, e.g. whether a given string of text is one
sUtra or two consecutive sUtras. I don't think it has ever been investigated
whether madhva's unique reading is particularly motivated by religious or
ideological dogma.

Vidyasankar




From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU  Fri Sep  8 11:45:29 2000
From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 07:45:29 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit Grammarian
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0009080932260.27127-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227061498.23782.12328386621869468739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology members,

Can anyone tell me how I can get Netscape to read the fonts
correctly on Gerard Huet's page?  For many letters, such as
"n or ~n, I read only blank rectangles.

Thanks!

Patricia Greer

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:34:03 +0100 Dominik Wujastyk
<ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
> Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:31:38 +0200
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:31:38 +0200
> From: Gerard Huet <huet at santenay.inria.fr>
> Message-Id: <200009071631.SAA06120 at santenay.inria.fr>
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Sanskrit Grammarian
>
> I am glad to announce the first release on Internet of "The Sanskrit
> Grammarian", a declension engine available through the Web page
> http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/decls.html where you may submit
> sanskrit stems and genders and get the corresponding flexed forms. Input
> follows the devnag transliteration convention, and for proper viewing of
> diacritics you should have installed Chris Fynn's Indic Times Font on your
> computer. All indications are given in my sanskrit page
> http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/sanskrit.html
>
> I have also linked this grammatical engine to my sanskrit to french
> lexicon.  Thus all first-level entries have now mouse-sensitive gender
> informations, which trigger the corresponding declension tables.  Also,
> the index engine, available from
> http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/DICO/index.html searches for flexed
> forms of substantives. Try it out with form "bhavaan". Please report any
> problem to me.
>
> Gerard.Huet at inria.fr

________________________________
Patricia M. Greer
Department of Religious Studies
University of Virginia




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Fri Sep  8 13:57:35 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 08:57:35 -0500
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
In-Reply-To: <F28GTQ9ObAcwl2fKCty00005a2e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227061504.23782.16767879372939928000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thieme proposed a derivation from Skt. uru- 'broad, wide' and 
khara/khala- 'thrashing floor', with "popular" _l_ (which, given the 
hymn in which it occurs, is not unreasonable). The braahmaNa 
literature has its own popular etymologies.

Hans Henrich Hock


>>There  are terms in Rv which are clearly non-IE: ulukhala.
>>Then, Indo-Iranian maksi is believed to be borrowed from the Finno-Ugric.
>
>
>M. Witzel, Section 1.6, Dravidian in the Middle and Late RV,
>in Substrate languages in Old IA, EJVS, 5-1, 1999, p. 17
>"ulUkhala 1.28 'mortar' DEDR 672 Tam. ulukkai, Kan. olake,
>Ko.dagu o.lake, and Kota o.lka, o.lkal kal '(stone) mortar',
>Malto lo_ra 'stone to grind spices' (S. Palaniappan, by letter);
>EWA I 231 'problematic'; cf. Zvelebil 1990: 79 with lit., Kuiper
>1991: 14, 41 'still unexplained', compares loan words with prefix
>u-; any connection with khala 'threshing floor' RV 10.48.7?".
>
>Pl. see my posting on 8th July 2000, titled
>Husking platform, Pestle-and-Mortar sign, and ulUkhala.
>http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0007&L=indology&P=R819 
>6&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1
>
>Regards,
>N. Ganesan
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Sep  8 08:34:03 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 09:34:03 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit Grammarian
Message-ID: <161227061496.23782.16307287355347709437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:31:38 +0200
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:31:38 +0200
From: Gerard Huet <huet at santenay.inria.fr>
Message-Id: <200009071631.SAA06120 at santenay.inria.fr>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject: Sanskrit Grammarian

I am glad to announce the first release on Internet of "The Sanskrit
Grammarian", a declension engine available through the Web page
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/decls.html where you may submit
sanskrit stems and genders and get the corresponding flexed forms. Input
follows the devnag transliteration convention, and for proper viewing of
diacritics you should have installed Chris Fynn's Indic Times Font on your
computer. All indications are given in my sanskrit page
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/sanskrit.html

I have also linked this grammatical engine to my sanskrit to french
lexicon.  Thus all first-level entries have now mouse-sensitive gender
informations, which trigger the corresponding declension tables.  Also,
the index engine, available from
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/DICO/index.html searches for flexed
forms of substantives. Try it out with form "bhavaan". Please report any
problem to me.

Gerard.Huet at inria.fr




From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH  Fri Sep  8 08:12:40 2000
From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 10:12:40 +0200
Subject: new publication
Message-ID: <161227061495.23782.4371793795013306170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Asiatische Studien / Etudes Asiatiques 54.1 (2000) has just come out. It
contains the following articles:

Thupten JINPA: The Question of 'Development' in Tsongkhapa's Madhyamaka
Philosophy

Christian LINDTNER: King Jagajjyotirmalla's 'Slokasaarasa.mgraha.h

Walter SLAJE: Wie man sein Schicksal (daiva) meistert. Der Mok.sopaaya ?ber
Wesen und Wirksamkeit menschlicher Aktivit?t (pauru.sa)

H. W. BODEWITZ: Distance and Death in the Veda

Catherine Ludvik: Sarasvatii-Vaac: The Identification of the River with Speech

A. BOCK-RAMING: The Gambling Scenes of Bhaarhut and Bodhgayaa

Gabriella EICHINGER FERRO-LUZZI: The Eternal Feminine in the Works of a
Modern Tamil Writer

A. Hayakawa: Three Steps to Heaven

Konrad MEISIG: 'Sakuntalaa, the Swan Woman




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Fri Sep  8 06:15:25 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 11:45:25 +0530
Subject: Urdu speakers
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000090616175515@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061493.23782.4416172645496674836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Raveen Satkurunathan wrote:
> Sameer Abbas' effort at deriving Urdu from Iranian, Turkish and Arab is
> on these same ideological lines.

  All that the opponents of a Ghaznavid origin of Urdu can do is shout
that it is an evil "Muslim" conspiracy, forgetting that the father of this
theory was Prof. Sachau, who was not a Muslim at all. See Prof. Ruth Laila
Schmidt's post Dec 1998 :
 "Sachau is of the opinion that the origin of Urdu or Hindustany must be
  sought in  the army of Mahmud."
 http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=indology&P=R6761

And that was in 1880, long before even the concept of Pakistan. This
Ghaznavid origin was widely accepted for 60 years, when suddenly, from
1947 onwards all kinds of hypotheses are officially sanctioned. So, Khari
Boli, Sindhu, Panchanadi, Rajasthani, Vracada, Braj or Haryani Prakrits
(and even Tamil and Marathi) suddenly appear as the mothers of Urdu. When
one Prakrit is debunked as a possible source, the stand is immediately
shifted to another Prakrit - as we have seen on this list.

 But now, we are seeing a shift from Khari Boli and Marathi to Tamil:

> What SA was alluding to was that half the population of present day
> Bangladesh are not native Bengalis (thus not "inferior" Dravids ...

  Ahh, now another theory: the Bengalis are all "Dravids". So now
we have a wonderful consensus, represented by three widely disparate
hyptheses: 1. the Mongol-Bengali theory (supported by the Mongoloid Shakti
cult of Bengal), 2. Aryan-Bengali theory and now 3. Negroid-Bengali
theory. What are the Bengali Muslims now to believe: are they Aryans or
Mongols or Negroes ?

> This is part of the revising of history, which is going on in Pakistan and
> Bangladesh by the likes of Jamat e Islami, and other collaborators of the
> genocide of the people of Bangladesh during the war for liberation in 1971.

  But Satkurnathan never displays such concerns when the victims of
genocide are Aryans: no condemnation of Dalit Maoist ethnic cleansing of
Brahmins and Rajputs in Bihar, no word about the violence against South
Indian Brahmins. All along the pet `Dalitstan' and `Dravidistan' theories
are repeated: all Indians are Dravidians, there are no `Aryans' left, all
Aryan languages are also derived from Dravidian, all `Aryans' are mulattos
- the offspring of Aryan soldiers raping Dravidian slave-women. He may
also like to clarify how Urdu is derived from Tamil or `Dravidian' ?

Samar




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Fri Sep  8 19:31:41 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 12:31:41 -0700
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061511.23782.16755768613676959760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arun Gupta writes, on the "Iron Age":

> E.g., quoting the Britannica ( apologies to all for doing this ) :
>
> "Certainly by 1400 BC in Anatolia, iron was assuming considerable
> importance, and by 1200-1000 BC it was being fashioned on quite a large
> scale into weapons, initially dagger blades. For this reason, 1200 BC has
> been taken as the beginning of the Iron Age."
>
> We find iron objects in China from around 700 BC, supposedly. If it was
> theorized that the technology migrated from West to East, then you have cut
> down the migration time from around 500 years to around 200 years, by
> revising the Hittite time line.
>
> That is, if the Anatolian dates are not established by independent physical
> evidence and are established via the Egyptian and/or Assyrian chronologies.

Apologies for citing the Encyclopedia Britannica on this topic
are, indeed, very much in order. :^)

Chronologies re the first use of iron in Anatolia, in different
areas of India (and regional variations are *critical*) are
wholly independent of Egyptian and Assyrian chronologies. Same
for Central Asia and China. Even the use of terms like "Iron Age"
is, for good reasons, being widely challenged by people in the
field. In India - and this has deep implications for dating of
the RV and later Vedic literature - the dates have been pushed
well into the first millennium. For recent overviews and
extensive bibliography, see the studies in Vincent C. Pigott,
_The Archaeometallurgy of the Asian Old World_ (University
Museum, University of Pennsylvania, 1999).




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  8 13:07:43 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 13:07:43 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061501.23782.14360643857427725046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Akhenaten (the Amarna letters)  conventionally c1300 BCE to be revised to
>c980 BCE and Ramesses II (battle of Qadesh) conventionally c1200 BCE to be
>revised to c930 BCE.

If so, will the Kikkuli text on horse-training written in Hittite
(conventional date: 1380 BCE) represent Rigvedic Aryans recruited
out of India?

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  8 13:36:35 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 13:36:35 +0000
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227061502.23782.8353922863017842121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>There  are terms in Rv which are clearly non-IE: ulukhala.
>Then, Indo-Iranian maksi is believed to be borrowed from the Finno-Ugric.


M. Witzel, Section 1.6, Dravidian in the Middle and Late RV,
in Substrate languages in Old IA, EJVS, 5-1, 1999, p. 17
"ulUkhala 1.28 'mortar' DEDR 672 Tam. ulukkai, Kan. olake,
Ko.dagu o.lake, and Kota o.lka, o.lkal kal '(stone) mortar',
Malto lo_ra 'stone to grind spices' (S. Palaniappan, by letter);
EWA I 231 'problematic'; cf. Zvelebil 1990: 79 with lit., Kuiper
1991: 14, 41 'still unexplained', compares loan words with prefix
u-; any connection with khala 'threshing floor' RV 10.48.7?".

Pl. see my posting on 8th July 2000, titled
Husking platform, Pestle-and-Mortar sign, and ulUkhala.
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0007&L=indology&P=R8196&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1

Regards,
N. Ganesan


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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Fri Sep  8 21:01:36 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 14:01:36 -0700
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061515.23782.13567538053987171440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anand M. Sharan writes (of Anun Gupta's post re iron technology):

> The metallurgy in India was fairly well developed by the dates you mention
> about Hitites [i.e., c. 1200 BCE].

Not according to the recent detailed review by Possehl and
Gullapalli (in Piggott 1999). According to their careful
region-by-region survey of the archaeological data, there were
wide regional differences in the first use of non-meteoric iron
in India, with dates in the Ganges valley (see below) being
especially late.

In general, Possehl and his collaborator note (p. 165), also
citing Chakrabarti 1985, that "a region-by-region analysis shows
that the existence of a pan-Indian Iron Age is highly doubtful."
Even the dates for the Pirak assemblage of the Greater Indus
Valley in Pakistan - previously assigned earlier dates - need to
be rethought. Possehl and his collaborator write that the "theory
that it begins as early as 1200 or 1300 B.C. may not be as
justified as positing a somewhat later date, perhaps
approximately 900 B.C., for which there are three very consistent
radiocarbon dates."

What is really striking in their review, however, are the very
*late* dates they assign for iron working in the Ganges Valley -
deep into the first millennium (with the exception of one
possible exception, the earliest artefacts date from around 900
BCE at the earliest to 300 BCE at the latest, depending on the
site). Pushing the dates this far forward potentially has deep
implications for dating the RV and later Vedic sources, most of
which were apparently redacted in this region.

Steve Farmer




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Fri Sep  8 19:04:06 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 14:04:06 -0500
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
In-Reply-To: <200009081821.OAA23730@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <161227061509.23782.17045111427132273209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As I recall, Thieme considers khala/khara- to be inherited (regional
Indo-European, but not limited to Indo-Aryan).

Hans Henrich Hock



>'>'
>'>'Thieme proposed a derivation from Skt. uru- 'broad, wide' and=20
>'>'khara/khala- 'thrashing floor', with "popular" _l_ (which, given the=20
>'>'hymn in which it occurs, is not unreasonable). The braahmaNa=20
>'>'literature has its own popular etymologies.
>
>     Is not khala = 'threshing floor' a Dravidian word ?
>
>     C.R. Selvakumar
>'>'
>'>'Hans Henrich Hock
>'>'


Hans Henrich Hock
Professor of Linguistics and Sanskrit
Linguistics, 4088 FLB MC-168, University of Illinois
707 S. Mathews, Urbana IL 61801-3652
telephone: (217) 333-0357 or 333-3563 (messages)
e-mail: hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
fax: (217) 333-3466




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Fri Sep  8 18:21:03 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 14:21:03 -0400
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227061506.23782.13652392412498074097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'
'>'Thieme proposed a derivation from Skt. uru- 'broad, wide' and=20
'>'khara/khala- 'thrashing floor', with "popular" _l_ (which, given the=20
'>'hymn in which it occurs, is not unreasonable). The braahmaNa=20
'>'literature has its own popular etymologies.

     Is not khala = 'threshing floor' a Dravidian word ?

     C.R. Selvakumar
'>'
'>'Hans Henrich Hock
'>'




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Fri Sep  8 21:27:54 2000
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 16:27:54 -0500
Subject: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs
In-Reply-To: <39B9535C.B268629A@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227061519.23782.9270465581515039846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indologists,

   In a March Indology message responding to a query by Ruth Schmidt,
Georg von Simpson provided an explanation for Hindi-Urdu "muSTANDa",
noting an observation that Wezler had made concerning "apa-ANDa" along the
way. If someone could supply me with the title to Wezler's article (ZDMG
148 (1998), pp. 261-276) I would appreciate it.

   Any information / references about eunuchs in ancient India would also
help me to advise a classical studies student who is very interested in
doing research on this topic. [Key words: chinnamuSka, hRtapuMstva,
varSavara, sthApatya, kaMcukin, sauvida, sauvidalla (Apte)]

Thanks very much,
Tim Cahill




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Sat Sep  9 01:09:11 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 18:09:11 -0700
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061526.23782.14802209729723572543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajarashi Banerjee writes:

> Isolated finds of iron are as early as 1400 BC.
>
> http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/23iron.htm is just an example beware of type
> errors .

The old UNI news report that you offer as "just an example" of
your evidence claims that iron was found in India c. 3200 BCE,
not just c. 1400 BCE. If this old journalist's tale has any truth
at all (recall that in July 1999 UNI broke the "news" that N. S.
Rajaram deciphered "pre-Harappan" texts) it refers to meteoric
and not mined iron. Isolated finds of worked iron from meteoric
sources are quite common at very early dates throughout the old
world. Such finds have nothing at all to do with the questions at issue.

The story claims that the excavations revealed the "presence of
iron as far back as 3200 BC, conclusively indicating that the
Iron Age began at least 400 years before hiterto believed."

The Iron Age c. 3200 BCE, or 400 years earlier? What's a few
thousand years off among friends?

UNI reports don't qualify as historical evidence.




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Fri Sep  8 18:51:08 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 19:51:08 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061508.23782.3420802188128265956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What does the revision of the dates of the Hittites do to the history of
iron-working technology ?

E.g., quoting the Britannica ( apologies to all for doing this ) :

"Certainly by 1400 BC in Anatolia, iron was assuming considerable
importance, and by 1200-1000 BC it was being fashioned on quite a large
scale into weapons, initially dagger blades. For this reason, 1200 BC has
been taken as the beginning of the Iron Age."

We find iron objects in China from around 700 BC, supposedly. If it was
theorized that the technology migrated from West to East, then you have cut
down the migration time from around 500 years to around 200 years, by
revising the Hittite time line.

That is, if the Anatolian dates are not established by independent physical
evidence and are established via the Egyptian and/or Assyrian chronologies.


-arun gupta




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Sat Sep  9 00:07:48 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 20:07:48 -0400
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061524.23782.7836263313768542868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Isolated finds of iron are as early as 1400 BC.

http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/23iron.htm is just an example beware of type
errors .

Its use is not widespread till 800 - 900 BC for a very good reason, its the
onset of urbanization and increased demand and not anatolian influence.

The iron usage in pattern in sri lanka could be used as a bench mark, as it
must have been relatively isolated.

http://www.the-prehistory-of-sri-lanka.de/addendum2_1.htm
http://www.the-prehistory-of-sri-lanka.de/


By 300 BC wootz was being exported from india to rome and west asia.

Traditionally till british times a large amount of iron work was done by
tribals.




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Fri Sep  8 20:24:17 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 21:24:17 +0100
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061513.23782.1563747900598743937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:51:08 +0100, Arun Gupta <suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
wrote:

>What does the revision of the dates of the Hittites do to the history of
>iron-working technology ?
>
>E.g., quoting the Britannica ( apologies to all for doing this ) :
>
>"Certainly by 1400 BC in Anatolia, iron was assuming considerable
>importance, and by 1200-1000 BC it was being fashioned on quite a large
>scale into weapons, initially dagger blades. For this reason, 1200 BC has
>been taken as the beginning of the Iron Age."
>
>We find iron objects in China from around 700 BC, supposedly. If it was
>theorized that the technology migrated from West to East, then you have cut
>down the migration time from around 500 years to around 200 years, by
>revising the Hittite time line.
>
>That is, if the Anatolian dates are not established by independent physical
>evidence and are established via the Egyptian and/or Assyrian chronologies.
>
>
>-arun gupta

Dr. Gupta:

             Iron making was reported to be around 1200 BCE in the
following reference:

Biswas A. K.  1996  - Minerals and Metals in India .

So, it did not take that long , if at all , for iron making to travel from
the west to east .

The metallurgy in India was fairly well developed by the dates you mention
about Hitites .

Regards,
Anand M. Sharan




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep  8 21:36:06 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 21:36:06 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit Grammarian
Message-ID: <161227061521.23782.2937388898053965061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Can anyone tell me how I can get Netscape to read the fonts
>correctly on Gerard Huet's page?  For many letters, such as
>"n or ~n, I read only blank rectangles.
>

I suspect this is going to be a problem for many users. Please
see the following page on the Indology site, for tips on Netscape
(and earlier versions of IE).

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/position/shank-jyot.html

Yours,
Vidyasankar

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From giravani at JUNO.COM  Fri Sep  8 21:07:54 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 22:07:54 +0100
Subject: Turkish words in Urdu
Message-ID: <161227061517.23782.16629782526667841968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Urdu sample of 1200 AD how many percentage was of Turkish words, that of
Persian words and that of Arabic words? Are there Mongolian words in Urdu?
Mugal kings of Delhi were more Turkish than Mongolian. Is Turkish language
different from Persian? I am asking this question because Turkish people
descended from their country of Turkmenistan of northeast of Iran in the
7th and 8th century AD after Muslim Arabs destroyed Persian resistance of
1100 years (in stopping Turks to come down from 500 BC to 600 AD)in the 7th
century. Large horde of Turkish people went through Iran to Armenia and
Anatolia, massacred Christian population, occupied the counrty and even
changed its name to Turkey. A small horde of Turkish people descended on
Afghanistan, destroyed population there and setteled at places known as
Ghazni, Ghor. From there they started attacking India. Why Persian language
was more important than Turkish in Mughal/Turkish kings of Delhi?




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Sat Sep  9 03:35:43 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 00 23:35:43 -0400
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061532.23782.10386466571046370602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Isolated finds of iron are as early as 1400 BC.
>
> http://www.rediff.com/news/jan/23iron.htm is just an example beware of
type
> errors .

The old UNI news report that you offer as "just an example" of
your evidence claims that iron was found in India c. 3200 BCE,
not just c. 1400 BCE. If this old journalist's tale has any truth
at all (recall that in July 1999 UNI broke the "news" that N. S.
Rajaram deciphered "pre-Harappan" texts) it refers to meteoric
and not mined iron.

The journalist does not have a clue but must have been briefed by the
excavators and been confused.
meteoric iron is not associated with the iron age which the article talks
about. So I think 3200 BC is a type error and just means 3200-3400 before
present which pushes back the local iron age a bit.

I have come across more such instances covered in articles, books but this
is the quickest one available using a quick web search. meteoritic iron with
high Ni is easy to differentiate from smelted iron and the fiirst thing
anyone would check

It is claimed that wootz was being made in india as early as 400 but does
archeology support this. the earliest evidence (on the net!) is from
medieval south india. Any info would be appreciated.

RB




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Sep  8 23:15:07 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 00:15:07 +0100
Subject: Urdu speakers
Message-ID: <161227061523.23782.9373843980900720118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN> wrote:

> that the origin of Urdu or Hindustany must be
>  sought in  the army of Mahmud."

How about sharing with us examples of Urdu texts from
11th, 12th, 13th, 14th or early 15th century?

You already know how the language of Khosrow looks
like.

I would be very interested in looking at them.

Yashwant




From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Sat Sep  9 01:54:17 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 02:54:17 +0100
Subject: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs
Message-ID: <161227061528.23782.5306273673168316893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:27:54 -0500, Timothy C. Cahill <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>
wrote:

>Indologists,
>
>   In a March Indology message responding to a query by Ruth Schmidt,
>Georg von Simpson provided an explanation for Hindi-Urdu "muSTANDa",
>noting an observation that Wezler had made concerning "apa-ANDa" along the
>way. If someone could supply me with the title to Wezler's article (ZDMG
>148 (1998), pp. 261-276) I would appreciate it.
>
>   Any information / references about eunuchs in ancient India would also
>help me to advise a classical studies student who is very interested in
>doing research on this topic. [Key words: chinnamuSka, hRtapuMstva,
>varSavara, sthApatya, kaMcukin, sauvida, sauvidalla (Apte)]
>
>Thanks very much,
>Tim Cahill

It might help to know another word for a eunuch:
vadhri Monier-Williams 917.1 'one whose testicle are cut out'.

Regards, Dmitri.




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sat Sep  9 08:56:11 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 09:56:11 +0100
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061534.23782.13100781371033782106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Farmer:

            The transition from the Bronze Age to Iron Age in India, is
still a topic of research . Dr. Biswas , quotes three places where iron age
began in India . These are in South Bihar ( Singhbhum District ),
Karnataka, ( South India ) and the third place  near Delhi . Out of these,
only the third one is in the Gangetic area . The third one being closer to
the Harrappan Civilization, is a reasonable possibility but it is not
closer to the source of iron, whereas, the other two are right at the
source .
          Regarding the dating of iron age in India, it depends upon whose
history is being written in India. The Gangetic Bely was fertile, and
important people lived there, so the history about them got written about
them.
             As I have indicated in my work about the migration of the
indus valley people ( # 108, August ) , the tribals always had the
technology and were quite current with their developments .




From yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP  Sat Sep  9 02:00:12 2000
From: yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 11:00:12 +0900
Subject: Some regional variations in Indian lunar calendar
Message-ID: <161227061530.23782.5246561781233428964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Several years ago I wrote a pancanga program with my former
student by TurboPascal and made it public at my ftp site:
ccftp.kyoto-tu.ac.jp
at the directory
pub/doc/sanskrit/pancanga

Recently we translated it into perl language so that
we can run it at my homepage:

http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom

But only a few days ago I found a bug for the karana
computation.  So at present please refer to the pascal
version, of which results are slightly different from
those of the perl version.  We have not taken into
account the different systems of computing kSayadina or
adhikadina.

I am leaving for India from next Monday in order to colelct
pancangas and to discuss about our program with some
traditional pancanga makers.

Michio Yanoy
Kyoto Sangyo University
yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  9 11:59:07 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 11:59:07 +0000
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061536.23782.17535755976645252344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>It is claimed that wootz was being made in india as early as 400 but
>does archeology support this. the earliest evidence (on the net!) is from
>medieval south india. Any info would be appreciated.

Wootz is related to the tamil word, "urukku"(=steel).



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From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Sat Sep  9 22:02:54 2000
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 15:02:54 -0700
Subject: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.21.0009081606340.52166-100000@spemail.loyno.edu >
Message-ID: <161227061541.23782.14999885278072387269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following should be useful:

Goldman R. P. Transsexualism, Gender, and Anxiety in Taditional India. Journal
of the American Oriental Society, Jul-Sep, 1993, V113(N3):374-401.

At 04:27 PM 09/08/2000 -0500, Tim Cahill wrote:

>   Any information / references about eunuchs in ancient India would also
>help me to advise a classical studies student who is very interested in
>doing research on this topic. [Key words: chinnamuSka, hRtapuMstva,
>varSavara, sthApatya, kaMcukin, sauvida, sauvidalla (Apte)]

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From hwhatting at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  9 15:09:29 2000
From: hwhatting at HOTMAIL.COM (Hans-Werner Hatting)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 15:09:29 +0000
Subject: Turkish words in Urdu
Message-ID: <161227061537.23782.1185573885745601161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:07:54 +0100 Narayan R. Joshi wrote:
>Mugal kings of Delhi were more Turkish than Mongolian. Is Turkish language
>different from Persian?

Turkish and Persian are very different - they belong to different language
families. While Persian is from the Iranian branch of the Indo-European
language family, and thus is genetically very closely related to Aryan
Indian languages, Turkish is a member of the Altaic language family.
Best regards
H. W. Hatting
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From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep  9 19:28:04 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 15:28:04 -0400
Subject: Some regional variations in Indian lunar calendar
Message-ID: <161227061539.23782.15805606125666422942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Since I posted my query regarding regional variations in calculating
kshayamaasa (particularily for Maharashtra) I have come across a website
www.datepanchanga.com of Date's Almanac Ltd. based in Solapur and Pune.
This website contains a very brief overview of discrepancies of panchangs of
this century.  The teacher (and father of one of the current pandits) is
Shree Pandit Dhundirajshastri Date who is described in the website as
"...first to decipher the shAsthrArtha (religious decisions related to
kshayamAsa) of the kshayamAsa..." .

This appears to be what I am looking for.  Are any of the members familiar
with the reputation of their panchangs?

Many thanks in advance,



Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

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From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Sun Sep 10 00:06:04 2000
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 00 20:06:04 -0400
Subject: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs
In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20000908192846.00e26880@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <161227061544.23782.15220033584733512408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I too shall look at this article: I posted a question about circumcision
in pre-Islamic-invasion Indian literature a while back (and did get one
very helpful response); perhaps there may be more in this article about
the awareness of Indians of that period, of the practice.



On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote:

> The following should be useful:
>
> Goldman R. P. Transsexualism, Gender, and Anxiety in Taditional India. Journal
> of the American Oriental Society, Jul-Sep, 1993, V113(N3):374-401.
>
> At 04:27 PM 09/08/2000 -0500, Tim Cahill wrote:
>
> >   Any information / references about eunuchs in ancient India would also
> >help me to advise a classical studies student who is very interested in
> >doing research on this topic. [Key words: chinnamuSka, hRtapuMstva,
> >varSavara, sthApatya, kaMcukin, sauvida, sauvidalla (Apte)]
>
> Best,
>
> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
> University of California, Berkeley
>




From boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE  Sun Sep 10 07:34:11 2000
From: boedeker at NETCOLOGNE.DE (Heike Boedeker)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 09:34:11 +0200
Subject: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs
Message-ID: <161227061546.23782.12954926567151887709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There, of course, also is:

Nanda, Sarena (1993): Hijras: an alternative sex and gender role in India.
- In: Herdt, Gilbert (ed.): Third sex, third gender: beyond sexual
dimorphism in culture and history. New York, NY: Zone Books, pp. 373-417

which has become a classic text in gender and queer studies, as well as
several works by Wendy Doniger, from Women, Androgynes, and Other Mythical
Beasts to Splitting the Difference: Gender and Myth in Ancient Greece and
India.

Best,

Heike




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Sep 10 11:08:33 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 12:08:33 +0100
Subject: Role of Manusmriti
Message-ID: <161227061547.23782.7862007673554571474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Since Indologists study what ancient Sanskrit texts
meant to their readers at various epochs, perhaps
they may comment on Madhu Kishwar's article on the
Manusmriti at

http://www.freespeech.org/manushi/117/manusmriti.html

as to whether her view on the role of the text is a
purely modern construction.

Thank you !
-arun gupta




From bloturco at KATAMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 10 11:44:25 2000
From: bloturco at KATAMAIL.COM (Bruno Lo Turco)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 13:44:25 +0200
Subject: Dharmadhara
Message-ID: <161227061549.23782.9848512882078807849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

In the 13th century the Kashmiri pundit Dharmadhara and the lo tsa ba Grags
pa rgyal mtshan translated several works: the ParamArthasa.mgraha, the
JambhalAstotra, the SAmudrikanAmatanUlak.sa.naparIk.sA etc. I would
appreciate any references to works which deal, even if briefly, with the
figure of Dharmadhara.
Thanks,

Bruno Lo Turco
bloturco at katamail.com




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Sun Sep 10 18:57:16 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 14:57:16 -0400
Subject: Sanskrit and PIE
Message-ID: <161227061554.23782.11985785159945616525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If so, will the Kikkuli text on horse-training written in Hittite
(conventional date: 1380 BCE) represent Rigvedic Aryans recruited out of
India?
Regards, N. Ganesan
        RB>
        Another theory could be that they were middle men, recruiters rather
than recruits acquiring power by strategic means rather than because of
miltary advantage or access to lots of horses.  The recruits could have been
central asian or peoples with more horse savvy. The ideological motives
religious underpinnings could have been contibuted by a brahmanical
community which has always been adept at legitimizing tribal customs(
including horsey ones ), motivating people to fight wars and giving them a
sense of religious purpose.
        This is similar to whats happened in afghanistan pakistan today. All
that these coutries really provide are a safe haven and a fundamental
ideology. The arms(US, arab, chinese), funds(US, arab) and often even
recruits come from outside from as far away sudan algeria, and chechnya
Jihad is carried out in kashmir, russia and iran altogether a significant
strategic and political  impact.
        This could be COMPLETELY OFF but could not help comparing it with
the modern situation.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 10 15:41:36 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 15:41:36 +0000
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227061553.23782.6290639190894981802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Thieme proposed a derivation from Skt. uru- 'broad, wide' and khara/khala-
>'thrashing floor', with "popular" _l_ (which, given the hymn in which it
>occurs, is not unreasonable). The braahmaNa literature has its own popular
>etymologies.

I guess this is from the 1955 review by Thieme of "The Sanskrit
language" by T. Burrow, Language 31: 428-457. However Witzel rejects
this  IE explanation of his old teacher Thieme. Especially in the
layer-by-layer analysis of the RV in the more recent researches
and he permits Drav. to occur in this part.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

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From troyoga at YAHOO.COM  Sun Sep 10 23:10:48 2000
From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 16:10:48 -0700
Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification
Message-ID: <161227061556.23782.14064808038357956975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Could any list members kindly offer identification of
the Buddhist Goddess statue found at the following
location?


http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/troyoga?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph


Kindly

Ven Tantra



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From yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP  Sun Sep 10 13:49:11 2000
From: yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 00 22:49:11 +0900
Subject: Some regional variations in Indian lunar calendar
Message-ID: <161227061551.23782.8796480153734259056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear colleagues,

I have corrected the karaNa part of my pancanga program
which you can run at my homepage:

http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom


The program is not yet `user friendly' enough.
I will keep on improving.  I am thinking of
putting the traditional Indian solar calendar.

Michio Yano
Kyoto Sangyo University
yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Mon Sep 11 15:51:17 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 10:51:17 -0500
Subject: FWD: Conference in Poland
Message-ID: <161227061563.23782.12555232314139445238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I just received the announcement below and hope that it will be
useful to the list members.

Best wishes,

Hans Henrich Hock


Krakow, July 7th 2000

Dear Colleague,

We have great honour in inviting you to the 2nd INTERNATIONAL
CONFERENCE ON INDIAN STUDIES, which will be held at the Jagiellonian
University in Krakow, Poland. The Conference will be organised by the
Institute of Oriental Philology, Dept. of Indian Studies,
Jagiellonian University, and is to take place between the 19th and
the 23rd of September 2001.

Our 1st International Conference on Sanskrit and Related Studies took
place in September 1993, and was organised to celebrate the 100th
anniversary of Sanskrit studies at the Jagiellonian University. The
2nd Conference is dedicated to the memory of our eminent teacher
Tadeusz Poboniak. Due to his efforts Indian Studies at our University
were re-established after a state-enforced break of many years. He
was also the person who extended the range of Indian Studies in
Krakow by including into them modern Indian languages and Hindi
literature. For this reason we have decided to modify the name of
the Conference. Through calling it the 2nd we would like to continue
the tradition of our previous one.

We request you to kindly inform us about the possibility of your
participation at our Conference as well as about the proposed title
of your paper before the 15th of December 2000.

On behalf of the Organising Committee

Secretary of the Conference




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Mon Sep 11 16:22:39 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 12:22:39 -0400
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227061565.23782.985115598142630723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'
'>'As I recall, Thieme considers khala/khara- to be inherited (regional
'>'Indo-European, but not limited to Indo-Aryan).

    Professor Hock, let me quote from T. Burrow, "The Sanskrit Language"
    Faber and Faber, New and Revised Edition, 1973:
    Page 383 in Chapter VIII "Loanwords in Sanskrit":
    khala- 'threshing-floor': Ta. Ma. laLam 'threshing floor, open space',
    Ka. kaLa, kaNa 'threshing floor', Te. kalanu, Pa. kali, Kui klai 'id'.

    (I've used L to denote retoflex 'l' and N to denote retroflex 'n')

    C.R. Selvakumar
'>'
'>'Hans Henrich Hock




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Mon Sep 11 16:24:39 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 12:24:39 -0400
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227061567.23782.600784318581594666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'From owner-indology at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Mon Sep 11 12:23:18 2000
'>'Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
'>'Sender: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
'>'From: "C.R. Selvakumar" <selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA>
'>'Subject:      Re: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
'>'To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
'>'
'>''>'
'>''>'As I recall, Thieme considers khala/khara- to be inherited (regional
'>''>'Indo-European, but not limited to Indo-Aryan).
'>'
'>'    Professor Hock, let me quote from T. Burrow, "The Sanskrit Language"
'>'    Faber and Faber, New and Revised Edition, 1973:
'>'    Page 383 in Chapter VIII "Loanwords in Sanskrit":
'>'    khala- 'threshing-floor': Ta. Ma. laLam 'threshing floor, open space',
                                         ^^^^^
                                          \__ should have been kaLam

'>'    Ka. kaLa, kaNa 'threshing floor', Te. kalanu, Pa. kali, Kui klai 'id'.
'>'
'>'    (I've used L to denote retoflex 'l' and N to denote retroflex 'n')
'>'
'>'    C.R. Selvakumar
'>''>'
'>''>'Hans Henrich Hock
'>'




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Mon Sep 11 17:28:05 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 12:28:05 -0500
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
In-Reply-To: <200009111622.MAA20287@valluvar.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <161227061569.23782.8903339010250816914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleague,

Burrow's argument is precisely what Thieme argued against (reference:
Thieme, Paul. 1955. Review of Burrow 1955. Language 31.428-48); and
note that he operates with the assumption that both ulu and khala
have "popular l" and thus stand for uru and khara respectively.

So you have two "authorities" disagreeing with each other, which
raises the question 'Why should we believe Burrow (and people like
him) and not Thieme (and people like him)--or vice versa?'  Simply
selecting what fits our own pet theory is not a particularly strong
and convincing argument.  The alternative, I would believe, is to
ignore ambiguous/controversial etymologies such as that of uluukhala
and instead focus on etymologies that are
unambiguous/uncontroversial.  Emeneau tried to do just that
(Dravidian and Indo-Aryan: the Indian linguistic area, reprinted in
Language and linguistic area: essays, selected and introduced by A.
S. Dil. Stanford: University Press.).  But his proposals for more
secure etymologies (budbuda-, mayuura- especially) are problematic,
too; see most recently my paper: Pre-Rgvedic convergence between
Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) and Dravidian?  A survey of the issues and
controversies.  Ideology and status of Sanskrit:  Contributions to
the history of the Sanskrit language, ed. by J. E. M. Houben, 17-58.
Leiden: Brill.  1996.

So if you ask me, I don't believe that there is any clear evidence
for early Dravidian lexical influence on Vedic Sanskrit.  At the same
time, this does not necessarily "prove" that there was no early
contact or interaction between Dravidian and Indo-Aryan--it merely
suggests that the evidence supposed to establish that
contact/interaction is not sufficiently strong to be cogent.

I hope this answers what I assume was the hidden question in your message.

Best wishes,

Hans Henrich Hock

(... adhyeyaM vyaakaraNam)

>'>'
>'>'As I recall, Thieme considers khala/khara- to be inherited (regional
>'>'Indo-European, but not limited to Indo-Aryan).
>
>    Professor Hock, let me quote from T. Burrow, "The Sanskrit Language"
>    Faber and Faber, New and Revised Edition, 1973:
>    Page 383 in Chapter VIII "Loanwords in Sanskrit":
>    khala- 'threshing-floor': Ta. Ma. laLam 'threshing floor, open space',
>    Ka. kaLa, kaNa 'threshing floor', Te. kalanu, Pa. kali, Kui klai 'id'.
>
>    (I've used L to denote retoflex 'l' and N to denote retroflex 'n')
>
>    C.R. Selvakumar
>'>'
>'>'Hans Henrich Hock




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep 11 14:11:41 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 15:11:41 +0100
Subject: Part I : Date of Mahabharat ; Use of Iron and the Saraswati River
Message-ID: <161227061558.23782.5601761296792617382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Several discussions have taken place about the use of iron in India .
Notable are those of Farmer,  Banerjee etc  .

P propose that the date of Mahabharat be accepted as 1700 BCE or before.
The reasons are as follows:

Before the Mahabharat War started, Balarama, the brother of Lord Krishna,
went on a pilgrimage from Dwarka along the Saraswati River .

It has been established that the Saraswati river dried out due to the
change of course by the Sutlej river around 1700 BCE.

The use of iron is mentioned in the Mahabharat in the event when the
Pandavas retrned to the palace after the war, they went to meet
Dhritrashtra . Lord Krishna, asked that an iron dummy be replaced for
Bhima, who had killed all of the Dhritrashtra's sons .  When Dhritrashtra (
a blind person ) embraced this dummy, it got squeezed .

Second instance of the use of iron is in the Musalparva , as one of my
friends, has pointed out .

This pushed back the dates of RV etc




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Sep 11 15:32:25 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 16:32:25 +0100
Subject: NCOLR Seminar Mo 18 & Tu 19 Sep 2000 (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061560.23782.4840399675002157590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:02:55 GMT
From: R.C. Jamieson <rcj10 at cam.ac.uk>

Subject: NCOLR Seminar Mo 18 & Tu 19 Sep 2000 Cambridge UK

Though many people will have heard of the NCOLR Seminar in Cambridge
earlier this year a reminder at this time seems sensible.

We may do one completely new thing this year, something on video and
audio sources for language learning on the Internet, Cambridge now has
sophisticated access to source material in many languages.

If you are interested simply e-mail

ncolr at edlis.org

for further details or to book a place.

The most up to date information on the NCOLR Seminar and other NCOLR
information can always be found at

http://www.edlis.org/ncolr


--
      The National Council on Orientalist Library Resources
                Professional Development Seminar
         Internet & Related Resources for Oriental Studies

  10:30 Monday 18 September - 17:00 Tuesday 19 September 2000

ncolr at edlis.org                            http://www.edlis.org/ncolr




From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET  Mon Sep 11 17:41:06 2000
From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 18:41:06 +0100
Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification
In-Reply-To: <20000910231048.879.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227061571.23782.6703459879455626601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ven. Tantra writes:

> Could any list members kindly offer identification of
>the Buddhist Goddess statue found at the following
>location?
>
>
>http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/troyoga?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph
>
It's a stone sculpture of Praj?ApAramitA, the Goddess of the Perfection of
Wisdom, from eastern Java, c. 1300 CE. The Dharmacakrapravartana mudrA is
characteristic of this Goddess, and the palm-leaf manuscript, on the lotus
whose stem she holds, represents the Praj?ApAramitA sUtra.  Because of the
individuality of the face of the Goddess, some think it is also a
"portrait" of Dedes, a queen of the 1st half of the 13th century.

This statue is quite widely reproduced: e.g. two excellent colour
illustrations can be found in Dietrich Seckel, The Art of Buddhism,
Methuen, London, 1964, pp. 236-239. It's in the Rijksmueum voor
Volkenkunde, Leyden.

Valerie J Roebuck
Manchester, UK




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Sep 12 03:09:58 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 00 23:09:58 -0400
Subject: ulUkhala (was pie/sanskrit)
Message-ID: <161227061577.23782.16740633463528310179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This is what Thieme writes in his review.

<<ulU'khala- 'mortar' (380) occurs several times in RV 1.28.6, a hymn
designated for recitation at a simple ceremony, the pressing of Soma not on
the sacrificial ground  but in the house, in the presence of the wife
(compare Goldner's translation). It is a word, then, I should say, most
probably taken from the language of women, who use the mortar as a kitchen
tool. We need only transpose it into the sounds of the educated language,
used by the poets, to get an unimpeachable analysis: *urU'-khara
'characterized by a broad khara (that is, by a broad "ground, stamping
ground")' (thus Grassman). For khala '[stamping] ground, [threshing] floor'
(382) is, again, not a 'certain Dravidian loan', but the vernacular
counterfeit of the educated form khara, used in the sacrificial language as a
designation of the square, slightly elevated and specially prepared 'ground
where the sacrificial vessels are kept when not in use'. kAtyAyana, in my
opinion, already analyzed the word correctly: it is to kha 'hole, empty
space', what USara 'salty' is to USa 'salt step', kuJjara 'elephant' to kuJja
'thicket, copse', etc. (vArtt. 1 on pAN. 5.2.107). He has met with scepticism
from Wckernagel-Debrunner (2.2.686b), but obviously only because they rely on
the somewhat foolish assumption of the kAzikA that kAtyAyana speaks of khara
'donkey'. In reality, he is thinking, of course, of the sacrificial khara,
which is indeed a 'place whhere there is kha', being void of grass, as the
'threshing ground' (khala) and the pate (khalati 'baldheaded') are void of
growth, or as a particular mountain called khalatika (vArtt.1 on pAN. 1.2.52)
is void of trees. Patanjali's remark makes this certain (1.229.2): 'Forests
that are not far away from a "mountain without trees" (khalatika m.) are
called "khalatika".' The soundness of kAtyAyana's linguistic sense is
vindicated by Akhara 'hole [inhabited by animals]' (RV+), which belongs to
Akha (mahAbh. I.256.9 derives this, together with Akhara, from khan 'dig') as
khara to kha.>>

I would appreciate a rigorous analysis of the above from the esteemed
linguists and Vedic scholars of the list.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep 11 23:37:50 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 00:37:50 +0100
Subject: Part II : Iron Age in India Comparable to Those in Turkey - A              Possibility
Message-ID: <161227061573.23782.14573357603812282735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have posted the Part I where I have indicated that Iron was being in use
in the days of Mahabharat . The date of Mahabharat was estimated to be
earlier than 1700 BCE i.e. begore the Saraswati river dried out .

With the revised dates of events about the Hitites, which have been moved
to later years by a few centuries, there does not appear to be any gap
between the use of iron between India, and Turkey or any other neighbouring
countries.

There are a few reasons for it -

1. The bronze technology was quite well developed in the Indus Valley.

2. There were migrations from the Indus Valley to other places within India
where the source of iron was.

3. There was trade between India, Iraq, Egypt ( Some of the mummies had
clothes made of Indian Cotton )  during the beginning of iron age in those
countries . Hence, it was normal to have the technologies transferred, if
those areas were better off in technology .

4. The furnaces which were used for bronze making, could also be used for
iron smelting.

5. India had much richer, and abudant source of iron . It was quite
possible that this technological leap happened in India .

I would welcome any comments on these points.

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE  Tue Sep 12 03:47:24 2000
From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 03:47:24 +0000
Subject: Dharmadhara
Message-ID: <161227061575.23782.16522877531647466337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On September 10, 2000, Bruno Lo Turco wrote:

     >I would appreciate any references to works which deal,
     >even if briefly, with the figure of Dharmadhara.

Very briefly mentioned in Jean Naudou, *Les bouddhistes ka?m?riens au 
moyen age*, Paris 1968, p. 204 - 205 and 215. (P. 256 - 257 and 276 of 
the English translation, *Buddhists of Ka?m?r*, Delhi 1980.)




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 12 04:00:52 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 04:00:52 +0000
Subject: Images of Sculptures and Paintings
Message-ID: <161227061578.23782.6758536116280245546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Would be grateful for any URL/web references to images of sculptures or
paintings of anything related to Indian Philosophy - similiar to the Goddess
PrAjnApAramitA pointed out by Ven Tantra - images of NAgArjuna, VardhamANa,
Patanjali, RAmAnuja, scenes from the Upanishads, Geetha etc

But not interested in images of popular Hindu Gods and Godesses - like
Shiva, Vishnu, Durga etc
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From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU  Tue Sep 12 12:02:06 2000
From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 08:02:06 -0400
Subject: Wootz Steel
Message-ID: <161227061585.23782.14485378731486395294.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> It is claimed that wootz was being made in india as early as 400 but does
> archeology support this. the earliest evidence (on the net!) is from
> medieval south india. Any info would be appreciated.
>
> RB

I have argued (in a paper entitled "pIta and zaikya/saikya:  Two terms of
Iron and Steel Technology in the MBh" [Journal of the American Oriental
Society, 120.1 (Jan-Mar, 2000), pp.  44-61]) that the MBh knew of steel
produced by a fusion process.  I reviewed a variety of evidence suggesting
that that this may be the famous Indian steel known in ancient Western
historical literatures, the steel that the Romans seem to have imported in
large quantities, the steel that was exported from India to make the best
Damascene steel, and, finally, the wootz that Europeans became aware of in
the eighteenth century in South India (and which then played an important
role in European advances in steel technology in the first half of the
nineteenth century).

The evidence of the MBh is the doublet saikya/zaikya used several times to
describe iron weapons in the text (though a crucial pair of passages in the
Sabha Parvan refer to molten gold).  I concluded after a close review of all
the textual passages and all available commentaries, that this doublet is a
nominal formation based on the root sic, siJcati, which, Rau pointed out, is
used to describe molten metal in late Vedic literature.  The commentatorial
tradition was not consistent in its treatment of these terms, and usually
relied upon the etymology zaikya < zikya (a carrying sling, kavadi), which
explanation, I believe I have shown in the paper, does not adequately
explain either zaikya or the obvious doublet saikya.

Unsolved problems that stand out after my argument is made:  1) How did
there occur the unusual development from saikya to zaikya?  and 2) Why, as
seems broadly to be the case, was knowledge of this saikya/zaikya steel
forgotten in Sanskrit textual traditions (some traces of recollection do
persist in some inscriptional evidence; see the paper).  I cannot answer
either of these questions, but I believe that readers of the paper will find
the evidence of the MBh text convincing that saikya and zaikya are indeed
two forms of the same word and must indeed refer to metal, usually ferrous
[and hence "steel"], produced by fusion.

Jim Fitzgerald

University of Tennessee




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Tue Sep 12 06:06:18 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 11:36:18 +0530
Subject: Iron and RV dating
Message-ID: <161227061581.23782.2515324421196507960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

-From: Rajarshi Banerjee <rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>


>Isolated finds of iron are as early as 1400 BC.
>
>RESPONSE+++++++++++
Possibility exists that what is taken to be ancient iron is not a product of
iron metallurgy .but slag produced during extraction of copper from its
iron-rich ore.
Rajesh Kochhar




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Tue Sep 12 06:15:49 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 11:45:49 +0530
Subject: Urdu speakers
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000090900150768@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061583.23782.5420869737046296530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Dr. Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
> How about sharing with us examples of Urdu texts from
> 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th or early 15th century?

Prof. Sprenger made a catalogue of such early 10th-15th century Urdu
manuscripts, and records one by Masud, dating to 1131 AD which was
written in Ghazni and was at the time present in the Libraries of the
King of Oudh :

 "it is probably in these circles that we must look for the origin of Urdu
 or Hindustani. The first author who wrote in this language is one Masud, who
 died a little more than a century after the death of King Mahmud
 (A.H. 525 = A.D. 1131). Cf. Sprenger, Catalogue of the Arabic, Persian and
 Hindustany Manuscripts of of the Libraries of the King of Oudh,"
 Calcutta 1854, pp.407, 485." [ al-Beruni's India ]

 Does anybody have Sprenger's list of manuscripts, or any of the Old Urdu
works of the King of Oudh ? Could librarians kindly check if Sprenger's or
Masud's works are present in their library ? What happened to the
libraries of the King of Oudh ?

Samar




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 12 14:29:33 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 14:29:33 +0000
Subject: Wootz Steel
Message-ID: <161227061587.23782.11982070334438268042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am interested in references about Wootz steel.

K. Gopalachari, Early history of the Andhra country,
1941 refers to an inscription edited by H. Luders.
The inscription mentions a temple dedicated to
nODagirIzvarasvAmin by the Satavahana king,
Ehu Santamula. Gopalachari says the "ehu" is
the dravidian word for steel which is "eHku"
in sangam texts, where H is the special tamil
letter called aaytam.

This 2nd century inscription is important
in another aspect:
I propose that noDagiri is the sanskritization
of the Telugu word Nallamalai mountain range.
Is there a variant reading nADagiri too??
(Sanskrit letters, no and nA vary little.)
Dravidian naL-/nal- = "black". Note that the
river Krishna originates in the Nallamalai
mountains. In the archives, Sanskrit names
like nAlagiri/nADagiri (the elephant controlled
by the Buddha), nalayini, nArAyana containing
this naL-(meaning black) have been discussed.
Srivaishnava Alvars describe the Vishnu sleeping
on the ananta as black, Centuries earlier
sangam texts call Vishnu as "mAl"(="black").

Can an Indologist here help me with the text
of Ehu Santamula's inscription, given in H. Luders'
book?

Thanks a bunch,
N. Ganesan


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From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 12 16:18:06 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 00 16:18:06 +0000
Subject: Wootz Steel
Message-ID: <161227061589.23782.13714287139920475125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<
I have argued (in a paper entitled "pIta and zaikya/saikya:  Two terms of
Iron and Steel Technology in the MBh" [Journal of the American Oriental
Society, 120.1 (Jan-Mar, 2000), pp.  44-61]) that the MBh knew of steel
produced by a fusion process.

[...]
The commentatorial tradition was not consistent in its treatment of these
terms, and usually relied upon the etymology zaikya < zikya (a carrying
sling, kavadi), which explanation, I believe I have shown in the paper,
does not adequately explain either zaikya or the obvious doublet saikya.

Unsolved problems that stand out after my argument is made:  1) How did
there occur the unusual development from saikya to zaikya?  and 2) Why, as
seems broadly to be the case, was knowledge of this saikya/zaikya steel
forgotten in Sanskrit textual traditions (some traces of recollection do
persist in some inscriptional evidence; see the paper).  I cannot answer
either of these questions, but I believe that readers of the paper will find
the evidence of the MBh text convincing that saikya and zaikya are indeed
two forms of the same word and must indeed refer to metal, usually ferrous
[and hence "steel"], produced by fusion.
>>

"zaikya" mentioned in the commentaries, I believe, can be explained
through Dravidian. Consider the tamil word, "cEku" meaning
solidity or hardness. (See Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon).
There is a common proverb using "cEku",
"maram muRRin2Al cEku; man2itan2 muRRin2Al kuraGku".
(when tree becomes old, it turns solid/hard
(and useful) whereas man becomes a monkey in old age).

Word-initial k-/c- are common. tamil kai = telugu cey = hand;
kEraLa & CEra kings etc., Drav. *kEku (related to cEku, attested in
tamil)  could change to "zeku" in Sanskrit.

This Drav. *kEku/cEku > Skt. *zeku, and then "zaikya" refering
to steel is connected with "eHku" of the sangam texts and "ehu"
mentioned in the Satavahana inscription of the 2nd century.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

My earlier posts with word-initial drav. k- into skt. z-:
1) ziva (23 Dec 1999) < *kiva < drav. kema(=good/auspicious/red)
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R11011&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1
2) zimIdin, ziva, zibi (30 Dec 1999)
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R13503&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1
3) karko.taka (25 Nov 1999) = drav. "gem-giver"
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9911&L=indology&P=R17156&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep 13 14:43:10 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 07:43:10 -0700
Subject: Part II : Iron Age in India Comparable to Those in Turkey - A              Possibility
Message-ID: <161227061596.23782.10564026748929751601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Anand M. Sharan" <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA> wrote:
> I have posted the Part I where I have indicated that Iron was being in use
> in the days of Mahabharat . The date of Mahabharat was estimated to be
> earlier than 1700 BCE i.e. begore the Saraswati river dried out .

 MBh. is earlier than 1700 BC. 2000 or 2500 BC?

 Then the RV must be from the pre-Harappan age,
 3000 BC or earlier.

 Best wishes,
 SM


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From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Wed Sep 13 15:57:21 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 10:57:21 -0500
Subject: India at time of Mahabharata : offer of map
In-Reply-To: <s9bf69ab.054@loc.gov>
Message-ID: <161227061602.23782.9797184631507958585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would greatly appreciate a copy for our (re-)developing South Asia program.

Hans Henrich Hock


>I have two personal copies of the map Mahabharatakalina
>Bharatavarshaca nakasa (Poona City : Deccan Printing Works, n.d.),
>already provided for the participants of the LC cooperative
>acquisitions program as LCCN 88-691872.  Would any institution like
>them?
>
>Allen Thrasher
>
>
>
>Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
>
>Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
>Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
>Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
>Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
>tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
>Email: athr at loc.gov
>
>The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
>Library of Congress.

--

Hans Henrich Hock, Director
Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
220 International Studies Building, MC-489
910 S. Fifth Street
Champaign IL 61820
217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
fax 217-333-6270
e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
***Visit our website at:
           http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Sep 13 15:46:47 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 11:46:47 -0400
Subject: India at time of Mahabharata : offer of map
Message-ID: <161227061598.23782.921798266393425813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have two personal copies of the map Mahabharatakalina
Bharatavarshaca nakasa (Poona City : Deccan Printing Works, n.d.),
already provided for the participants of the LC cooperative
acquisitions program as LCCN 88-691872.  Would any institution like
them?

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU  Wed Sep 13 15:50:48 2000
From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Lambodara)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 11:50:48 -0400
Subject: India at time of Mahabharata : offer of map
Message-ID: <161227061600.23782.12135339049400574804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

allen;

we at the university of rochester could use such a thing to teach undergrads
and as reference material for the library, let me know what we could do to
get one.
thanks
steve brown
religion and classics council
university of rochester
----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen W Thrasher" <athr at LOC.GOV>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:46 AM
Subject: India at time of Mahabharata : offer of map


> I have two personal copies of the map Mahabharatakalina
> Bharatavarshaca nakasa (Poona City : Deccan Printing Works, n.d.),
> already provided for the participants of the LC cooperative
> acquisitions program as LCCN 88-691872.  Would any institution like
> them?
>
> Allen Thrasher
>
>
>
> Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.
>
> Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
> Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
> Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
> Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
> tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
> Email: athr at loc.gov
>
> The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
> Library of Congress.
>




From athr at LOC.GOV  Wed Sep 13 15:58:43 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 11:58:43 -0400
Subject: India at the time of Mahabharata maps claimed
Message-ID: <161227061604.23782.16732485831915829177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The universities of Rochester and Edinburgh have claimed the available
copies.

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 13 14:12:11 2000
From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 14:12:11 +0000
Subject: Mahabharata Conference 2001
Message-ID: <161227061590.23782.7687317755235739260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members: Please circulate the following communication among those
interested.
ST


           International Conference on the Mahabharata
     Organized by the Chair in Hindu Studies, Concordia University


Dates:      7th, 8th, and 9th June 2001

Location:  Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Themes:   1) Methodological Problems of Teaching the Mahabharata
          2) Character Analysis based on Ethical Issues
          3) Challenge and Response in the Context of philosophical, Social and
Other Issues

Please send  (1) title of your paper, indicating the category of  the theme
under which it should come ( by October 1, 2000) and (2) abstract of  about
300 words  (by January 1, 2001)  to Dr Shrinivas Tilak,  Department of
Religion, Concordia University, 1455 de Maisonneuve, West, Montreal, Quebec,
Canada  H3G 1M8. Selected abstracts will be included in the brochure being
planned for the Conference.

For further information contact Shrinivas Tilak, Coordinator, Mahabharata
Conference 2001 at <shrinivast at hotmail.com>
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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Sep 13 14:16:51 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 15:16:51 +0100
Subject: Wikner TeX setup
Message-ID: <161227061593.23782.17318843355064220802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The CTAN distribution of Charle's Wikner's TeX/Metafont Devanagari
includes ten bug report files.  Has anyone applied the patches to the
various files (esp. skt.c and skt.sty)?

It's a bit of work, and if someone's already done it, I'd be grateful for
a copy.  I could also arranged for the patched files to be mounted at CTAN
for others.

Best,
Dominik




From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Wed Sep 13 14:21:43 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 15:21:43 +0100
Subject: itare.saam - what does it mean?
Message-ID: <161227061595.23782.4294275174392587416.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGY members!

Here is a question I try to find a satisfactory answer to:

What is the meaning of Sanskrit word itare.saam (YogaS. I.20)?
Translation usually given in renderings of YogaS. is
"other" "of other" which does not look satisfactory at all.

1. It might be fem.sing.acc of itare.saa which would then
    be derived as "itara-i.s-aa" or "itara-ii.s-aa"
2. It might be pl.gen. of consonantal stem itare.s which then would
   be derived as "itara-i.s" or "itara-ii.s"

Since itara already means "the other (of the two), another"
translation "itare.saam" as "of other" or "other" would ignore
the "i.s" or "ii.s" part.

Any ideas about the meaning of "itare.saam" ?
Any knowledge of conventional use of it?

Thanks all responding to my previous questions!
TIA,  Dmitri.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 13 17:38:40 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 17:38:40 +0000
Subject: itare.saam - what does it mean?
Message-ID: <161227061606.23782.13102434329006466108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Here is a question I try to find a satisfactory answer to:
>
>What is the meaning of Sanskrit word itare.saam (YogaS. I.20)?

mas. gen. pl. of itara = other.
The declension is as in tad -> te.saam, not as in raama -> raamaa.naam.

>Translation usually given in renderings of YogaS. is
>"other" "of other" which does not look satisfactory at all.

YS 1. 19 has videha-prak.rtilayaanaam.
itare.saam in 1. 20 means "of the others" i.e. not "of videhaaH or
prak.rtilayaaH".

Vidyasankar
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From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU  Wed Sep 13 19:33:50 2000
From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 00 21:33:50 +0200
Subject: Q: e-text of the Vikramorvasiyam
Message-ID: <161227061608.23782.1472640659941851969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friends,

is kAalidAsa's play vikramorvazIya available on the net?

Thanks,
Ferenc
--------------------------------------------------------
Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD
associate professor of philosophy
E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest
e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu




From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 14 09:15:12 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 02:15:12 -0700
Subject: itare.saam - what does it mean?
Message-ID: <161227061614.23782.15340661261719025870.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It means 'of the others' or 'of the other [beings]'.
In this context all the beings are roughly divided
into two kinds, and the itare.saam is applied to the
second one.
      Regards,

Dr Marina V. Orelskaya
c/o Department of Sanskrit
and Prakrit Languages,
University of Pune,
Pune 411007
India


--- Dmitri <dmitris at PIPELINE.COM> wrote:
> Dear INDOLOGY members!
>
> Here is a question I try to find a satisfactory
> answer to:
>
> What is the meaning of Sanskrit word itare.saam
> (YogaS. I.20)?
> Translation usually given in renderings of YogaS. is
> "other" "of other" which does not look satisfactory
> at all.
>
> 1. It might be fem.sing.acc of itare.saa which would
> then
>     be derived as "itara-i.s-aa" or "itara-ii.s-aa"
> 2. It might be pl.gen. of consonantal stem itare.s
> which then would
>    be derived as "itara-i.s" or "itara-ii.s"
>
> Since itara already means "the other (of the two),
> another"
> translation "itare.saam" as "of other" or "other"
> would ignore
> the "i.s" or "ii.s" part.
>
> Any ideas about the meaning of "itare.saam" ?
> Any knowledge of conventional use of it?
>
> Thanks all responding to my previous questions!
> TIA,  Dmitri.


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From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 14 09:25:43 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 02:25:43 -0700
Subject: meaning of the word...
Message-ID: <161227061616.23782.7490804442852001098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anybody give an idea what a word tvA.sa could
mean. It is not connected to tve.sa, dve.sa etc. The
word is found thrice in a Sanskrit text from Kerala,
everytime in Loc Sg (tvA.se), as a usage for various
limbs in Kathakali. The Malayalam translation gives
the same word.
          Thanks.

Dr Marina Orelskaya
c/o Department of Sanskrit
and Prakrit languages,
University of Pune,
Pune 411007
India

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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Sep 14 07:39:40 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 08:39:40 +0100
Subject: Tibetology post (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061612.23782.6176242410464813217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:19:23 +0100
From: Ulrich Pagel <up1 at soas.ac.uk>

Subject:  Tibetan post in California


DALAI LAMA PROFESSORSHIP OF TIBETAN BUDDHISM AND CULTURAL STUDIES
The Department of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa
Barbara invites applications from and nominations of, distinguished senior
scholars for the XIV Dalai Lama Professorship of Tibetan Buddhism and
Cultural Studies. Candidates for this position must have qualifications for
appointment to an endowed chair and a comprehensive knowledge of the
religious, philosophical, and cultural traditions of Tibetan Buddhism as
well as advanced expertise in Tibetan and other appropriate languages.
Preferences will be given to scholars with broad training in religious
studies whose approach to Tibetan Buddhism is
informed by both historical and comparative perspectives. In addition to
developing undergraduate and graduate courses, the successful candidate
will be expected to develop a program of conferences, research, and
activities that will advance scholarship in Tibetan Buddhist studies and
also serve the interests of the broader community. Applicants should send a
curriculum vitae, a letter discussing their intellectual agenda and
proposals for developing a Tibetan Buddhist studies program, and select
publications to: Chair, Tibetan Search Committee, Department of Religious
Studies, UC Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, CA., 93106-3210.
Three references required. Final filing date: December 15, 2000.
Applications received by November 15, 2000 will be considered for
interviews at the AAR/SBL meeting. The University of California is an
EEO/AA Employer.




From olenev at DIALOG.SPB.SU  Thu Sep 14 07:12:46 2000
From: olenev at DIALOG.SPB.SU (Olenev Dmitry)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 11:12:46 +0400
Subject: itare.saam - what does it mean?
Message-ID: <161227061610.23782.4155953636300867022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

itara declines as a pronoun tad, etad, kim, and so on.

Why not read Buhler more carefully? or you studied the sanskrit through
notorious Kochergina's textbook? :-)

Yours Dmitry

PS. By the way, why do u think this rendering is unsatisfactory? Have you
consulted
Yoga-bhashya?




From Stapelfeld at AOL.COM  Thu Sep 14 18:18:26 2000
From: Stapelfeld at AOL.COM (Sylvia and Elmar Stapelfeldt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 14:18:26 -0400
Subject: gandharva
Message-ID: <161227061624.23782.16013562157817017285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anbody help me with the etymology of gandharva? Is there any symbol for
them? Where can I find carvings or paintings depicting them? Or is there any
further valuable information?

Thank you,

Elmar Stapelfeldt




From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM  Thu Sep 14 13:23:23 2000
From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 14:23:23 +0100
Subject: itare.saam - what does it mean?
Message-ID: <161227061618.23782.2704925591113388263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks everyone for the suggestion

itare.saam = pl.gen. of pronomial declension of itara (which, by the way,
is sometimes is declined as an adjective -- W.D.Whitney)

Let me put it differently:

What might be the objections the following:

itare.saam as pl.gen. of itare.s = itara-i.s = search for the other,
or, search with the other?

Did such use ever happen in Sanskrit MSS?

TIA, Dmitri.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 14 15:25:28 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 15:25:28 +0000
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
Message-ID: <161227061622.23782.6103212153932984973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'Hemp' (hibiscus cannabinus) is called "kONi" in tamil.
Compare Tel. gOnu, gOgu, cf. gOGgura, Kan. gOgi (DEDR 2183).

Some Tam. Lex. (OTL) entries;
a) kONikkayiRu = gunny twine
b) kONippaTTai = coarse gunny-cloth
c) kONippai = coarse sack, gunny-bag
d) kONiyal -> kONippai =coarse sack, gunny-bag
e) kONiyUci = packing-needle for sewing gunny-bags, bodkin
f) kONippaTTu = a kind of silk
g) kONi = 1. sacks made of jute fibre, gunny bag, sack cloths;
           2. a measure of capacity

Pointers were given where word-initial z- in loan words of Sanskrit
comes from changing k- from the original [**]. The Vedic word for
hemp, za.na (AV 2.4.5, PS 2.11.5) is also another loan exhibiting
this. Ie., Drav. kONi > Skt. zaNa. Also related are the N. Iranian
(Ossete) "goen, goenoe", and Greek "kannabis".

GodhUma, "wheat" is likely to be related with drav. *kOLam
which in tamil is cOLam, brahui xOlam, etc., My suggestion
of drav. *kOLam > godhUma has been approved as very likely
by world's foremost scholars who take the IVC script as dravidian.
The change of drav. kO- to Skt. za- in the words for hemp
is like drav. kOLam/skt. godhuma & avestan "gantuma".
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9911&L=indology&P=R16411&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1

M. Witzel, Substrate languages in OIA, EJVS, 1999, p. 30
"This is the opportune moment to briefly discuss another
northwestern peculiarity, the interchange of k/z in Vedic.
This has occasionally been observed, even one hundred years
ago in the case of KarkoTa/ZarkoTa, but it has not been put
into proper relief (Kuiper 1991: 41,42,44 as Proto-Munda,
cf. KEWA III 309, Witzel 1999). The interchange of k and z
is not related at all to the well-known Indo-Ir. dvelopment
of IE *k > Ved. z, as the present variation occurs only in
'foreign' words." [...]
" In consequence, Vedic loan words with the interchange of
z/k may go back to a phoneme K' with realization close
to [k'] or [z] in the Indus language."

The source for the loans in Sankrit beginning with z-
is likely to be Dravidian.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

[**] My earlier posts with word-initial drav. k- into skt. z-:
1) zaikya (related to steel) < Drav. *kEku/ tamil cEku
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0009&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=16985
2) ziva (23 Dec 1999) < *kiva < drav. kema(=good/auspicious/red)
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R11011&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1
3) zimIdin, ziva, zibi (30 Dec 1999)
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R13503&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1
4) karko.taka (25 Nov 1999) = drav. "gem-giver"
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9911&L=indology&P=R17156&D=1&H=0&O=D&T=1


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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Sep 14 15:00:10 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 00 16:00:10 +0100
Subject: Wikner TeX setup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0009131515190.3417-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227061620.23782.16586588209385936394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Duh!  I found what I was asking for in my own ftp area on the INDOLOGY
website!

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Fri Sep 15 03:34:36 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 00 04:34:36 +0100
Subject: Stone,Bronze and Iron ages
Message-ID: <161227061626.23782.5009971507308757336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Richard N. Frye in his book, "The Heritage of Central Asia" offers the
following information on the page 57." Archaeologists divide the pre-
literate past between Stone Age, Bronze Age, and Iron Age.This division, of
course, is based upon types and materials of tools found in sites, and time
divisions vary from one part of the globe to another." Could we say then
that these ages for India were different from those of Europe? In the TV
show on Metallurgy ten yeras ago on the channel PBS, it was mentioned that
Iron age in Europe was dawned because the export of Tin from the ancient
land of modern Afghanistan was interrupted due to some political upheaval
in Asia. I would appreciate if scholars throw some more light on this
topic. Thanks. N. R. Joshi.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 15 14:21:14 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 00 07:21:14 -0700
Subject: gandharva
Message-ID: <161227061631.23782.18365266381538172392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Check the archives, may be useful. Sure Sanskritists would have
 collected material and written about gandharvas, the heavenly musicians,
 accompanied by the apsaraas. Khmer temples have sculptures of apsaraas
 and gandharvas.

 South Indian temples have gandhrvas too, for instance, check the
 book encyclopaedia of indian temple architecture, (M. W. Meister),
 the eary phase of soth indian temples. Chalukya temples such as
 Aihole, Pattadakkal have gandharva males flying thru' the air.

 Incidentally, the gandharva angel depictions show that Indians
 lacked the knowledge on the fundamentals of flying.


--- Sylvia and Elmar Stapelfeldt <Stapelfeld at AOL.COM> wrote:
> Could anbody help me with the etymology of gandharva? Is there any symbol for
> them? Where can I find carvings or paintings depicting them? Or is there any
> further valuable information?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Elmar Stapelfeldt


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From jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Sep 15 16:55:33 2000
From: jddunne at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (John Dunne)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 00 11:55:33 -0500
Subject: gandharva
In-Reply-To: <20000915142114.13048.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227061633.23782.6061690593342285476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Tibetan translation of *gandharva* is *dri za* ("scent eater"). Most
such translations appear to be based upon Buddhist nirukti-s of indic
origin; many of these nirukti-s are preserved in the _sgra sbyor bam po
gnyis pa_. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to check the _sgra sbyor_
to see whether a nirukti for *dri za* is given. In any case, *gandha*
corresponds obviously to *dri*. But to me, at least, it is not obvious how
we are to get "eating/eater" (*za*) from the last one or two syllables of
gandharva. Any suggestions?

Yours,

John Dunne


=========================
John D. Dunne
Assistant Professor
Languages and Cultures of Asia
University of Wisconsin-Madison




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Fri Sep 15 13:09:33 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 00 14:09:33 +0100
Subject: Mahabharatakalin Map
Message-ID: <161227061628.23782.12463015689901656675.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Dr.Allen W. Thrasher,Many of us are interested in the map of India at
the time of Mahabharata for one reason or the other. Will you be kind
enough to post it on the internet so that all of us have the advantage of
the gaining this new information. Please let us know the exact source and
address of the map. Is it possible to buy it at present from its source?
Thanks. N.R. Joshi.




From torfats at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 15 22:42:51 2000
From: torfats at HOTMAIL.COM (ravindran sri)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 00 22:42:51 +0000
Subject: Need help on chinnamasta
Message-ID: <161227061634.23782.9830416227317337550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone help me out with a list of books on chinnamasta or any book
medival bengali tantric practices.

-Ravi
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From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Sat Sep 16 07:30:24 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 00 13:00:24 +0530
Subject: Stone,Bronze and Iron ages
Message-ID: <161227061636.23782.4961380428039660272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yes.Technologies originate at different place and travel out at different
speeds. Ditto for metallurgy. Therefore, metal"ages" are an abbreviation for
a local time-span. Example; copper metallurgy began in Iran c. 5000BC, and
reached Baluchistan, say a millennium later.
rajesh kochhar
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}
-----Original Message-----
From: Narayan R. Joshi <giravani at JUNO.COM>


>" Could we say then
>that these ages for India were different from those of Europe?




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Sat Sep 16 13:24:47 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 00 14:24:47 +0100
Subject: Metals and Mahabharat
Message-ID: <161227061638.23782.5629828648816578815.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Mahabharat, there is reference to a variety of gold called Jaambunada
Suvarna.Was it a kind of natural gold mineral or an alloy? Could anybody
please throw more light on it? Tnanks. N. R. Joshi.




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Sat Sep 16 15:31:39 2000
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 00 17:31:39 +0200
Subject: Franz Osten: "Life of the Buddha"
In-Reply-To: <398DA5B0.59418D60@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227061639.23782.1608336713514598560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> I also have an entry for a book on Franz Osten, which however I haven't seen
> yet:
> Gerhard Koch, "Franz Osten's Indian Silent Films" (New Delhi 1983).

Sehr geehrte Frau Kellner,

Ja, der obige Titel existiert tatsaechlich (und ich besitze ein Exemplar
davon). Der Herausgeber dieses Buches ist das "Max Mueller Bhavan", N.Delhi.

Zum Thema: "Light of Asia", habe ich auch den folg. deutschen Titel (zwar das
Drehbuch) anzubieten: Au: Niranjan Pal, Berlin, 1925

Dann gibt es eine ganze Reihe von Aufsaetzen ueber Osten (und seine Werke) in
versch. Fachzeitschriften.

Sie sollten "alle" Filme Ostens in Bayerischen Film Archiven, in Muenchen,
finden koennen. Das letzte mal habe ich gehoert, dass die Muenchner mit
NFAI-Pune eine Abmachung getroffen haetten. Letztlich gibt es einen
Dokumentarfilm vom Bayer. Rundfuk mit dem Titel: "Ein Bayer in Bombay"
(Spiellaenge ca. 50min).

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Sreenivas Paruchuri

--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
        sparuchuri at hotmail.com




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sat Sep 16 17:31:50 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 00 18:31:50 +0100
Subject: Stone,Bronze and Iron ages
Message-ID: <161227061641.23782.13549289539180855696.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>?From Baluchistan, when it ( the bronze age ) went east towards Bihar -
Bengal area, people who brought there where  mis -identified as those of
Austric Origin ( the Santhals ) . The metallurgists were thinking that the
bronze in this part came from Thailand . Bronze in Thailand came earlier
than in India, as it was believed .

Only when all the facts were added up ( language, metals or alloys ) ,
their true identity could be established .

For details see

www.engr.mun.ca\~asharan\bihar\indus\indus~3.htm




From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU  Sat Sep 16 23:38:18 2000
From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 00:38:18 +0100
Subject: cinnamastaa
Message-ID: <161227061643.23782.17618103864701223898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ravi,

Benard's recent book is a good one:

Benard, Elizabeth Anne.  _Chinnamastaa: The Aweful Buddhist and Hindu
Tantric Goddess_, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1994.  (Good work +
bibliography)

David Kinsley's books (_Hindu Goddesses_ and _Tantric Visions of the Divine
Feminine: the Ten Mahaavidyaas_) have references too.

Hope this helps!

Best Wishes,

Stuart

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 1 Jan 1904 00:35:27 -0800]




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Sat Sep 16 23:38:19 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 00:38:19 +0100
Subject: Manu-smriti & halakha
Message-ID: <161227061645.23782.16210257133370921915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anybody know if any comparative studies have been done on Jewish
halakha and the similar socio-religious laws found in the Manu-sm.riti
and other texts ?

Many thanks in advance,
Stephen Hodge




From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Sun Sep 17 09:13:29 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 02:13:29 -0700
Subject: gandharva
Message-ID: <161227061647.23782.1218531431472447997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a monograph by Dr J.R.Joshi "Some minor
divinities in Vedic mythology and ritual", published
by the Deccan College postgraduate and research
institute, Pune, 1977. The second chapter "Gandharva"
is truly exhaustive.
                      Best regards,

Dr Marina Orelskaya
c/o Department of Sanskrit
and Prakrit Languages,
University of Pune,
Pune 411007
India


--- Sylvia and Elmar Stapelfeldt <Stapelfeld at AOL.COM>
wrote:
> Could anbody help me with the etymology of
> gandharva? Is there any symbol for
> them? Where can I find carvings or paintings
> depicting them? Or is there any
> further valuable information?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Elmar Stapelfeldt


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Sun Sep 17 15:51:11 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 11:51:11 -0400
Subject: cinnamastaa
Message-ID: <161227061657.23782.14319308659647645997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

cinnamastaa

I dont know what transliteration scheme has been used but

but the initial consonant must be aspirated




From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR  Sun Sep 17 10:46:58 2000
From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean FEZAS)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 12:46:58 +0200
Subject: Manu-smriti & halakha
In-Reply-To: <002c01c02037$ec511200$2b1f893e@stephen>
Message-ID: <161227061649.23782.1500777986767594086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 00:38 17/09/00 +0100, you wrote:
>Does anybody know if any comparative studies have been done on Jewish
>halakha and the similar socio-religious laws found in the Manu-sm.riti
>and other texts ?
>
>Many thanks in advance,
>Stephen Hodge
See :
J.D.M. Derrett, DharmazAstra and Juridical Literature (A history of Indian
Literature V,1), Wiesbaden, Otto Harassowitz, 1973 [Index p. 72: Jewish law]
Regards
J.F.




From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sun Sep 17 11:12:54 2000
From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 13:12:54 +0200
Subject: cinnamastaa
Message-ID: <161227061651.23782.12948846927902415071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

See also Karel R. van Kooij's recent article "Iconography and the
Battlefield: the case of Chinnamastaa" in Violence denied: Violence,
Non-violence and the Rationalization of Violence in South Asian Cultural
History, ed. by J.E.M. Houben and K.R. van Kooij, Leiden: Brill, 1999. In
case the price of the book (ca. 100 US $) is a barrier I suggest you contact
Prof. van Kooij (krvankooij at rullet.leidenuniv.nl); he may be willing to send
you an offprint/photocopy of his article.
Yours, Jan Houben
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ray Sarbacker <srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Saturday, September 16, 2000 9:14 PM
Subject: cinnamastaa


>Dear Ravi,
>
>Benard's recent book is a good one:
>
>Benard, Elizabeth Anne.  _Chinnamastaa: The Aweful Buddhist and Hindu
>Tantric Goddess_, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1994.  (Good work +
>bibliography)
>
>David Kinsley's books (_Hindu Goddesses_ and _Tantric Visions of the Divine
>Feminine: the Ten Mahaavidyaas_) have references too.
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Stuart




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Sun Sep 17 13:54:37 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 14:54:37 +0100
Subject: Ancient Indians and the science of flying
Message-ID: <161227061653.23782.12808898908863561939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In connection with the etymology of the word Gandharva, one of the
participants of this discussion group remarked that Gandharvas knew flying
while Indians lacked the knowledge on the fundamentals of flying. The
book,"Brihad Vimanashastra" by the ancient sage Bharadvaja is well known to
Indologists. Could anyone please tell us the time period of this book? When
was it composed? Thanks in advance. N. R. Joshi.




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Mon Sep 18 00:18:31 2000
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 17:18:31 -0700
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
In-Reply-To: <20000913144310.11363.qmail@web312.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227061663.23782.10878815468181083494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 07:43 AM 09/13/2000 -0700, SM wrote:

> MBh. is earlier than 1700 BC. 2000 or 2500 BC?

For the benefit of non-specialist "lurkers" on the list it must be pointed
out that these dates are untenable.  The composition of the Mbh (a text
that grew throughout a long period) is generally accepted by scholars to
have taken place from around 500/400 BCE - 400/500 CE.  Some of the
political conflicts it depicts could go back to, perhaps, ca. 1000/900 BCE.
Anyone with a serious interest in MahAbhArata (and RAmAyaNa) scholarship
can take a look at:

Brockington, John. 1998. The Sanskrit Epics. Handbuch Der Orientalistik,
ed. Johannes Bronkhorst, 12. Leiden: Brill.

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Sun Sep 17 15:20:34 2000
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 17:20:34 +0200
Subject: Apologies (was: Franz Osten ...)
Message-ID: <161227061655.23782.6741732062573998371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am very sorry for posting a personal note to Dr. Kellner on the list.

Regards,                                --Sreenivas

--
E-Mail: sreeni at ktp.uni-paderborn.de
        sparuchuri at hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Sep 17 19:23:13 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 19:23:13 +0000
Subject: Henrique Henriques (1520-1600)
Message-ID: <161227061661.23782.15622008590733684372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 >30 May 2000
 >Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600)

 >I'm a student of Sanskrit and Tamil at the University of Pisa; I'm
studying
 >the works of Henrique Henriques, a well-known jesuit, scholar of tamil.
 >Unfortunally it has not been easy to find books, articles and works
 >(manuscripts and printed books) on him and of his;

J. Wicki, Ein vorbildlicher Missionar Indiens, P. Henriques (1520-1600)
Studia missionalia 13 (1963) 113-168

Ulrike Niklas, A system for Tamil literature (Classical,
Post-Classical, Neo-Classical) Based on the Subject
Catalogue of the Janert Koeln library of Tamil texts, 1-2,
1990, p. 611 lists an editition of one his printed works.

"" Henriques, Henrico, 1. Va.nakkam.
Tuuttukku.ti: Tami_z ilakkiyak ka_zakam 1963. 70 pp.
[Prayers by H. Henriques. This was the first book to
be printed in Tami_z, in 1578.] ""

You can get a copy of this book from Cologne university
library. The original is at Harvard university.
a) Georg Schurhammer, S.J. and G. W. Cottrell, Jr.
The first printing in Indic characters,
Harvard library bulletin, VI.2 (Spring 1952) 147-160
b) Xavier Thaninayagam, The First books printed in
Tamil, Tamil Culture (Madras), VII.3, July 1958
p. 288-308.

It will be worthy to reprint Henriques' Tamil grammar
("Arte de Lingua Malabar"), the first European
grammar book on any Indian language.

Regards,
N. Ganesan







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From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Sun Sep 17 18:55:28 2000
From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 00 20:55:28 +0200
Subject: Ancient Indians and the science of flying
Message-ID: <161227061659.23782.11289550402024386592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

the science of flying, again . . .
before reacting please see Indology archives whether you really have
something new to say or ask on this subject!
-----Original Message-----
From: Narayan R. Joshi <giravani at JUNO.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Sunday, September 17, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: Ancient Indians and the science of flying


>In connection with the etymology of the word Gandharva, one of the
>participants of this discussion group remarked that Gandharvas knew flying
>while Indians lacked the knowledge on the fundamentals of flying. The
>book,"Brihad Vimanashastra" by the ancient sage Bharadvaja is well known to
>Indologists. Could anyone please tell us the time period of this book? When
>was it composed? Thanks in advance. N. R. Joshi.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Sep 18 14:25:01 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 07:25:01 -0700
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061671.23782.6370446391276939928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Anand M. Sharan" <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA> wrote:
>  Fitzgerald mentions about the process used in making
> steel, a high quality steel in the descriptions of Mahabharat .
> Fitzgerald's finding appears very reasonable to me .

 But his JAOS article refers nowhere near a date of 2000 BC!
 The low time limit of the MBh is 4th century AD.




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From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Mon Sep 18 14:31:59 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 09:31:59 -0500
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000091811141501@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061673.23782.12642367539637180389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This dating of the Mahabharata is predicated on the assumption that
the Sarasvati dried out in 1700 B.C. The assumption, however, is
questionable as shown by Rafique Mughal's early and pioneering work
on the dense archaeological sites along the old Sarasvati
river--Mughal concludes that the final drying up took place late in
the 2nd millennium BC or even early 1st millennium.  See also
Possehl's more recent summary in "Indus Age: The beginnings".   Here
as elsewhere it would be desirable to use sounder -- and more
critical -- philological methodology before accepting ideologically
inspired interpretations of the South Asian past, no matter what the
ideology.

Off the soapbox and back to work!  (That's an instruction to myself.)

Hans Henrich Hock





>If you go by the dates when they were written , which you correctly assign
>a range between 400 BCE and some others ( Radhakrishnan -AROUND 200 bce )
>when Brahmi script came into use , nothing can be established for any of
>the epics . If this is so, how can one assign any date for the Vedas  such
>as mention of iron ( ayas etc ) in them ?
>
>I had stated in  two parts, how the Mahabharat could be thought to have
>taken place on or before 1700 BCE because the Saraswati river dried out at
>that time. Mahabharat mentions about Balram 's pilgrimage along the
>Saraswati river .  Fitzgerald mentions about the process used in making
>steel, a high quality steel in the descriptions of Mahabharat .
>Fitzgerald's finding appears very reasonable to me .
>
>Pl note that , to this date, no script has been found  where the events in
>India could have been written even around 800 BCE . Does it mean nothing
>very eventful happened in India before say, 1000 BCE ?
>
>Regards,
>
>Anand M. Sharan
>
>So, how can one verify the authenticity of the dates ?

--

Hans Henrich Hock, Director
Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
220 International Studies Building, MC-489
910 S. Fifth Street
Champaign IL 61820
217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
fax 217-333-6270
e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
***Visit our website at:
           http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Mon Sep 18 04:41:17 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 10:11:17 +0530
Subject: Bharataa battle and MBh
Message-ID: <161227061665.23782.15114194785781891133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is important to distinguish between the Bharata battle( between the Kauravas and the Pandavas) and the Mahabharata text. The text contains matter later than the battle), e.g.reference to Yavanas.Clearly, the text remained open much after the event that forms its core. When was MBh closed?A clue comes from the fact that MBh does not refer to weekdays or zodiacal signs, which are believed ,on the basis of circumstantial evidence, to have been introduced into India c.100 BC. In other words, a statement in MBh could be as recent as just before 100BC.

Rajesh Kochhar
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep 18 10:14:14 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 11:14:14 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061667.23782.6500471374289025141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If you go by the dates when they were written , which you correctly assign
a range between 400 BCE and some others ( Radhakrishnan -AROUND 200 bce )
when Brahmi script came into use , nothing can be established for any of
the epics . If this is so, how can one assign any date for the Vedas  such
as mention of iron ( ayas etc ) in them ?

I had stated in  two parts, how the Mahabharat could be thought to have
taken place on or before 1700 BCE because the Saraswati river dried out at
that time. Mahabharat mentions about Balram 's pilgrimage along the
Saraswati river .  Fitzgerald mentions about the process used in making
steel, a high quality steel in the descriptions of Mahabharat .
Fitzgerald's finding appears very reasonable to me .

Pl note that , to this date, no script has been found  where the events in
India could have been written even around 800 BCE . Does it mean nothing
very eventful happened in India before say, 1000 BCE ?

Regards,

Anand M. Sharan

So, how can one verify the authenticity of the dates ?




From pfreund at MUM.EDU  Mon Sep 18 16:30:35 2000
From: pfreund at MUM.EDU (Peter Freund)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 11:30:35 -0500
Subject: Material for correct time of observance of Hindu holidays              inEnglish
Message-ID: <161227061680.23782.12829419148984125951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You may enjoy a very simple popular description of Indian festivals and
holidays.  There is a chapter on the Indian calendar system:

Rituals and Festivals of India, by Tara Bapat, published by Popular Prakashan,
Bombay, 1991.

Sincerely,
Peter Freund


Harry Spier wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I am looking for any material in English that gives the rules for the
> correct time of observance of Hindu holidays.  One of the list members has
> directed me to Vol. 5 part 1 of "The History of Dharmashastra" by P.V. Kane.
>   If any of the members can give me references to any other material in
> English I would greatly appreciate it.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Harry Spier
> 371 Brickman Rd.
> Hurleyville, New York
> USA 12747
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 18 15:38:04 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 11:38:04 -0400
Subject: Material for correct time of observance of Hindu holidays in              English
Message-ID: <161227061675.23782.12462591274232981670.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I am looking for any material in English that gives the rules for the
correct time of observance of Hindu holidays.  One of the list members has
directed me to Vol. 5 part 1 of "The History of Dharmashastra" by P.V. Kane.
  If any of the members can give me references to any other material in
English I would greatly appreciate it.

Many thanks in advance,

Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

_________________________________________________________________________
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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Sep 18 12:09:42 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 13:09:42 +0100
Subject: Revised release of CSX, CSX+ and CARB fonts (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061669.23782.10611652374520502823.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:32:12 +0100 (BST)
From: John Smith <jds10 at cam.ac.uk>

Subject: Revised release of CSX, CSX+ and CARB fonts



I have released revised versions of Times_CSX, and of the CSX+ and
CARB fonts that are available from http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk.
The revisions affect ONLY the Type 1 PostScript forms of the fonts,
and ONLY the PC versions of these -- most people will be completely
unaffected by the change, and will have no reason to upgrade.

The only change is to the .pfm files, which have been revised to allow
Windows systems to group the fonts properly as font "families".

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep 18 16:03:53 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 17:03:53 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061677.23782.18014468932218553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:31:59 -0500, Hans Henrich Hock
<hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU> wrote:

>This dating of the Mahabharata is predicated on the assumption that
>the Sarasvati dried out in 1700 B.C. The assumption, however, is
>questionable as shown by Rafique Mughal's early and pioneering work
>on the dense archaeological sites along the old Sarasvati
>river--Mughal concludes that the final drying up took place late in
>the 2nd millennium BC or even early 1st millennium.  See also
>Possehl's more recent summary in "Indus Age: The beginnings".   Here
>as elsewhere it would be desirable to use sounder -- and more
>critical -- philological methodology before accepting ideologically
>inspired interpretations of the South Asian past, no matter what the
>ideology.
>
>Off the soapbox and back to work!  (That's an instruction to myself.)
>
>Hans Henrich Hock
>
>
>
>
>
>>If you go by the dates when they were written , which you correctly assign
>>a range between 400 BCE and some others ( Radhakrishnan -AROUND 200 bce )
>>when Brahmi script came into use , nothing can be established for any of
>>the epics . If this is so, how can one assign any date for the Vedas  such
>>as mention of iron ( ayas etc ) in them ?
>>
>>I had stated in  two parts, how the Mahabharat could be thought to have
>>taken place on or before 1700 BCE because the Saraswati river dried out at
>>that time. Mahabharat mentions about Balram 's pilgrimage along the
>>Saraswati river .  Fitzgerald mentions about the process used in making
>>steel, a high quality steel in the descriptions of Mahabharat .
>>Fitzgerald's finding appears very reasonable to me .
>>
>>Pl note that , to this date, no script has been found  where the events in
>>India could have been written even around 800 BCE . Does it mean nothing
>>very eventful happened in India before say, 1000 BCE ?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Anand M. Sharan
>>
>>So, how can one verify the authenticity of the dates ?
>
>--
>
>Hans Henrich Hock, Director
>Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
>220 International Studies Building, MC-489
>910 S. Fifth Street
>Champaign IL 61820
>217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
>fax 217-333-6270
>e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
>***Visit our website at:
>           http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/

Mughal's work is one of the many .  There are many others . Some are

I had mentioned in Part I ( 59 ) , and II ( 42 ) of Sept 2000, the possible
reason for  1700 BCE . Those having more interest in the drying up of the
Saraswati river can look into the work at other web sites . Those are not
my research . One has to start some where .

It is a fact  and well established that Indus Civilization had well
developed metallurgy and the transition from Bronze to Iron Age in a
country like India which had the necessary raw materials, and technology,
is not at all surprising if it happened that early .

It is difficult indeed to accept such a thing for those who have believed
that long that India was not advanced , as far as metallurgy is concerned .
But, the facts , and a reasonabilty points towards, some thing else.

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From bipahena at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 18 17:54:34 2000
From: bipahena at REDIFFMAIL.COM (Hemananda.B.P)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 17:54:34 +0000
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
Message-ID: <161227061684.23782.5168085462377733337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Modern kannada word for hemp is "gooNi".
 gooNiciila=gunnybag
 gooNinaaru=gunny fibre
 DED  records very less number of modern KannaDa words]

                   Hemananda Bisembli Pakeerappa



------------- Original Message --------------
"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
To:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
From:"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Date:Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:25:28 GMT
Subject: zaNa (hemp)

'Hemp' (hibiscus cannabinus) is called "kONi" in tamil.
Compare Tel. gOnu, gOgu, cf. gOGgura, Kan. gOgi (DEDR 2183).



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From bipahena at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 18 17:54:43 2000
From: bipahena at REDIFFMAIL.COM (Hemananda.B.P)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 17:54:43 +0000
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
Message-ID: <161227061682.23782.876491904867563767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Modern kannada word for hemp is "gooNi".
 gooNiciila=gunnybag
 gooNinaaru=gunny fibre
 DED  records very less number of modern KannaDa words]

                   Hemananda Bisembli Pakeerappa



------------- Original Message --------------
"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
To:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
From:"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Date:Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:25:28 GMT
Subject: zaNa (hemp)

'Hemp' (hibiscus cannabinus) is called "kONi" in tamil.
Compare Tel. gOnu, gOgu, cf. gOGgura, Kan. gOgi (DEDR 2183).



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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Tue Sep 19 01:27:09 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 18:27:09 -0700
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061692.23782.10546085330008689169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have a question touching on, or rather going a step beyond, the
Buddha redating issue.

A prominent Vedicist (who does not participate on this list) sent
out an email the other day with the following intriguing comment.
His point arose out of a previous discussion of the links between
Vedic and Buddhist traditions:

> Pali texts are
> certainly not the oldest of Buddhist texts, and Pali was not the
> language of the Buddha or of the early Buddhist community. This
> is a myth propagated in the 19th century by the Pali Text Society
> etc. There certainly are very old documents within the Pali canon
> -- e.g. the Suttanipata, and within it the Attakavagga (see
> Vetter's article on this).

I take it that he is referring here to Vetter's arguments (e.g.,
in his 1988 monograph, pp. 101 ff.) concerning pre-Buddhist
strata in the Attakavagga. But I have no information about his
reference to Pali not being the "language of the Buddha or of the
early Buddhist community." Can someone more knowledgeable about
than I am about recent Buddhist studies help me out with
bibliography in any European language?

In general, I should point out that I take arguments about the
historicity of "the Buddha" with deep skepticism, since ancient
biographies of figures like this (cf. "Confucius," "Aristotle,"
"Jesus," etc.) were invariably late constructs, reflecting
scattered data in rapidly growing textual canons (collected
syncretically to generate figures who eventually reached cosmic
dimensions), self-serving claims by warring schools, and other
equally dubious sources. Indeed, I think that strong
cross-cultural models can be built for how biographies like these
grew over time. The credence that these biographies (stripped
only of their miraculous elements) are still given even by modern
researchers rests on no stronger grounds than the fact that they
have been endlessly repeated.

Hence I view the redatings of early Buddhism by Bechert et
al.(which I fully support) to be redatings of the Pali canon and
not of "the Buddha" -- and am hence equally skeptical about
claims about "the language of the Buddha" (not only don't pot
speak, as the saying has it, but neither do biographical
constructs - or if they do they are surely multilingual). I've
been surprised to find that claims concerning the "historical
Buddha" are still widely accepted by Buddhist scholars, even
revisionists following in Bechert's path. (The argument is always
about *when* "the Buddha" died, not about whether or not he is a
syncretic construct, built around a variety of "awakened"
religious revisionits.) Vetter too (1988: xxi ff.), despite his
work on pre-Buddhist levels of Buddhist texts, accepts a lot of
conventional lore about the life of "the Buddha" that no one
could *possibly* support using well-controlled evidence.
Interestingly, these tendencies are also common in recent
revisionist works on early Confucian works, in which efforts to
destratify the texts are often coupled with remarkably
traditional accounts of Confucius's "life."

In any event, does anyone have any comments about the "language
of the Buddha," Buddhist texts antedating the Pali canon, etc?

Best wishes,
Steve Farmer




From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU  Mon Sep 18 22:41:17 2000
From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 18:41:17 -0400
Subject: Job advertisement
Message-ID: <161227061688.23782.6179229425210591660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I post the following ad on behalf of the History Department at the
University of Virginia.

Bob Hueckstedt

==================================================================

South Asia, modern period.  The history department at the University
of Virginia seeks a historian of the Indian subcontinent in the modern
period.  Rank: tenure-track assistant or tenured associate professor.
PhD required; teaching experience expected.  Publications desirable
for applicants at assistant level, essential for those at associate
level.  The successful candidate will join an established program in
Indian history and hold membership in the University of Virginia
Center for South Asian Studies.  Send letter of application, c.v., and
three letters of recommendation to Anne Jacobson Schutte, Chair, South
Asia Search Committee, Corcoran Department of History, University of
Virginia, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4180.  Deadline: 1 December.
Women and members of minority groups are urged to apply.  The
University of Virginia is an affirmative action/equal opportunity
employer.




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Tue Sep 19 02:00:45 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 19:00:45 -0700
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061694.23782.9860300898856609944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Hence I view the redatings of early Buddhism by Bechert et
> al.(which I fully support) to be redatings of the Pali canon and
> not of "the Buddha" -- and am hence equally skeptical about
> claims about "the language of the Buddha" (not only don't pot
> speak, as the saying has it, but neither do biographical
> constructs - or if they do they are surely multilingual).

Let me simultaneously correct my typo (read "pots" for "pot") and
clarify my murky metaphor: the expression "pots don't speak"
refers to the archaeological/linguistic error of associating
given cultural traits (e.g., pottery types) with single
linguistic groups in a knee-jerk fashion. This is an especially
dangerous error in attempts to link archaeological data with the
Aryan migration issue in India. By extension, if "the Buddha" is
an historical construct, and the ideas ascribed to him were
syncretic products originating in multiple cultural contexts, it
doesn't make sense to identify him with a single language either.
Did "Jesus" in fact speak Aramaic, as is often claimed? Not if we
believe that his "life" was a construct assembled from diverse
cultural elements, including Greek-speaking Platonic elements
reflected in his "life" in the Gospel according to John, various
gnostic texts, etc.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 18 19:34:54 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 19:34:54 +0000
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
Message-ID: <161227061686.23782.7094826900416491728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  >Modern kannada word for hemp is "gooNi".
  >gooNiciila=gunnybag
  >gooNinaaru=gunny fibre

  Ka. "gONi" is cognate with tam. "kONi".
  Also, there is an ancient word, "kaNam pul"(="kaNam" grass).
  One of the 63 Shaivaite saints of the first millennium is called
  "kaNampulla nAya_nAr" who made a living
  by cutting and selling this "kaNam" grass.
  Tamil "kaNam" is probably the same as the Vedic "zaNa".

  >DED  records very less number of modern KannaDa words

  Regards,
  N. Ganesan



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From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Mon Sep 18 23:45:16 2000
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 00 19:45:16 -0400
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
In-Reply-To: <20000918175443.20913.qmail@mailweb3.rediffmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227061690.23782.13611016305840866994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Hemananda.B.P wrote:

>  Modern kannada word for hemp is "gooNi".
>  gooNiciila=gunnybag
>  gooNinaaru=gunny fibre
>
> "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> 'Hemp' (hibiscus cannabinus) is called "kONi" in tamil.
> Compare Tel. gOnu, gOgu, cf. gOGgura, Kan. gOgi (DEDR 2183).

Some botanical clarification:

Cannabis sativa (family Cannabinaceae) is source of hemp and marijuana

Hibiscus cannabinus (family Malvaceae) is source of Indian/Deccan hemp or
kenaf; its leaves are edible (make gongura=goGgura? chutney etc). I do not
know the vernacular for the fibre.

Corchorus capsularis and Corchorus olitorius (family Tiliaceae) are
sources of jute fibre that makes jute/gunny bags.

As far as I know jute fibre is saNal (=zaNal?) in current Tamil; bags
woven from saNal are kONi.

It is possible that these terms in Tamil (and other Dravidian languages)
were first applied to goGgura (native of penisular India), and later to
jute (native of northeastern India, esp Bengal). When?

What is the origin of "jute"? my English dictionary says it is from
Sanskrit via Hindi; my Hindi dictionary does not have jute in any form.
I can only remember the word "bori" for sack; it says nothing about jute.

I suppose the British must have been responsible for the spread of jute
across India?

--Geeta




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep 19 15:17:42 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 08:17:42 -0700
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
Message-ID: <161227061713.23782.168565738673319445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Geeta Bharathan <geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU> wrote:

> Cannabis sativa (family Cannabinaceae) is source of hemp and marijuana
>

 Called as "kullai" in sangam texts; ganja plant.

> Corchorus capsularis and Corchorus olitorius (family Tiliaceae) are
> sources of jute fibre that makes jute/gunny bags.

 "gunny" as in gunny-bag comes from tamil word, "ka.n.ni"("rope","knot")etc.,
 Check Madras univ. Lexicon; will look into my copy of Hobson-Jobson.

 Best regards,
 SM


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From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 19 10:01:36 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 10:01:36 +0000
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061705.23782.16412900454682055271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>(The argument is always about *when* "the Buddha" died, not about >whether
>or not he is a syncretic construct, built around a variety >of "awakened"
>religious revisionits.)

We also have to remember that Buddha is not referred to only in
Buddhist works. There're numerous non-Buddhist works - popular
literature like the RAmAyanam as well as philosophical works of rival
schools which refer to him. If he never existed, the rival schools
would have lost little time in pointing that out.

And it is not easy to imagine a vibrant and powerful religious force
like Buddhism which almost eclipsed Hinduism in India and also spread
to different parts of the world - with its well defined principles
and teachings - to have risen to such prominence without the guiding
hand of the founder - a religious genius -who firmly set it on its path.

Take also into consideration the distinct nature of  Buddhist philosophy -
the whole system developed from the negative
standpoint of anatta - whoever started it - whether his name was
Gautama or not - is a genius - a "Buddha" without doubt. To say such
a one didn't exist is to condemn as liars a host of great Buddhist
philosophers down the ages who spent a good part of their lives propagating
the teachings of their revered master.

Ofcourse, Gautama on being born - standing up and walking eight steps
and declaring himself to be the savior of the world and VishvAmitra
teaching him the GAyathri mantram might be pure fantasy - but even such
fantasies need a substance to be woven around.

Forget Jesus or the Buddha who lived thousands of years back and nothing
conclusive can be proved - give us an example in the last, say, 500
years - where a movement has gained as much prominence like Buddhism
without a founder - a leader who started the movement. Even for Marxism,
Karl Marx did exist. But maybe, a thousand years from now somebody could
question the histriocity of Marx too!
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From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Tue Sep 19 09:07:55 2000
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 10:07:55 +0100
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <39C6C0A1.C12CB46E@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227061703.23782.93599886798864826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A prominent Vedicist:

>  > Pali texts are
>>  certainly not the oldest of Buddhist texts, and Pali was not the
>>  language of the Buddha or of the early Buddhist community. This
>>  is a myth propagated in the 19th century by the Pali Text Society
>>  etc. There certainly are very old documents within the Pali canon
>>  -- e.g. the Suttanipata, and within it the Attakavagga (see
>>  Vetter's article on this).

It isn't anything like as simple of this. But I would still take the
view that the Pali texts are an older recension than anything else
available to us in an Indic dialect. In truth, the only other large
body of material available to us is that found in the
Muulasarvaastivaadin Vinaya texts and these are plainly considerably
later as a recension. Obviously individual texts and passages have to
be argued on a case by case basis.

Steve Farmer:
>I take it that he is referring here to Vetter's arguments (e.g.,
>in his 1988 monograph, pp. 101 ff.) concerning pre-Buddhist
>strata in the Attakavagga. But I have no information about his
>reference to Pali not being the "language of the Buddha or of the
>early Buddhist community." Can someone more knowledgeable about
>than I am about recent Buddhist studies help me out with
>bibliography in any European language?

I don't find Vetter's arguments very convincing.

>In general, I should point out that I take arguments about the
>historicity of "the Buddha" with deep skepticism, since ancient
>biographies of figures like this (cf. "Confucius," "Aristotle,"
>"Jesus," etc.) were invariably late constructs,

'Invariably' ? This is an extremely strong claim. So strong that one
example is sufficient to refute it. How about Alexander ? Can we
conclude from the proliferation of the Alexander legend that we
should have 'deep scepticism' as to the historicity of Alexander ? I
think not.

>  reflecting
>scattered data in rapidly growing textual canons (collected
>syncretically to generate figures who eventually reached cosmic
>dimensions), self-serving claims by warring schools, and other
>equally dubious sources. Indeed, I think that strong
>cross-cultural models can be built for how biographies like these
>grew over time. The credence that these biographies (stripped
>only of their miraculous elements) are still given even by modern
>researchers rests on no stronger grounds than the fact that they
>have been endlessly repeated.

There are certainly groups of scholars who _construct_ models on
these lines, but it seems to me that they too are based upon
particular agenda and should be taken with a large dose of salt.

>Hence I view the redatings of early Buddhism by Bechert et
>al.(which I fully support) to be redatings of the Pali canon and
>not of "the Buddha"

This is just wrong. These redatings are nothing to do with the Pali
Canon which doesn't exist before the early first century B.C. at the
very earliest. They are not even redatings of the earliest texts
contained in the Pali Canon, since such issues are mostly not being
addressed. They are attempting to locate the date of the historical
figure whose place of death was marked by Asoka in the third century
B.C. with a pillar at Lumbini. Note that there may have been people
alive at this time who had spoken to people who met the Buddha in
their youth.

This is particularly true if one follows Bechert himself who adopts a
very late date 'close to Alexander' (or something like that) or
follows the traditional Sarvaastivaadin dating uncritically as do
Charles Willemen and company. In other words Asoka Moriya put up his
pillar (or inscribed it) about a century and a half after the death
of the individual recognized as the 'Buddha' by his followers.

Most participants in Bechert's Symposium preferred a dating closer to
400 B.C. or a little earlier.

>  -- and am hence equally skeptical about claims about "the language
>of the Buddha"

This is really a debate about the language of the earliest Buddhist
literature, but it is more convenient to refer to 'the Buddha'. But
it is important to note here that there is actually no real doubt as
to what 'language' the 'Buddha' spoke. The debate is about the
precise 'dialect' or 'dialects' spoken in the area of modern Bihar in
the fifth and fourth centuries B.C.

In other words whatever exact dialects were spoken there is no doubt
that they were at least as close to the language of the earlier texts
of the Pali Canon as the language in which I am writing this is to
that in which Shakespeare wrote. In some ways the dialect of the Pali
Canon can be compared to that of modern editions of Shakespeare which
do not spell at all as he did. In effect it is a modernized dialect,
not a different language at all.

>  Vetter too (1988: xxi ff.), despite his
>work on pre-Buddhist levels of Buddhist texts, accepts a lot of
>conventional lore about the life of "the Buddha" that no one
>could *possibly* support using well-controlled evidence.

It would be a mistake to insist on 'well-controlled evidence' in this
context. That would simply amount to a concealed argument from
silence. The kind of criteria you seem to want to use are those
appropriate to a time and place where we have a lot of data. If a
figure supposed to have existed in 16th century Europe is not
mentioned until the 18th century we would rightly be very suspicious,
especially if he is claimed to have been well-known, etc. At that
time we have a lot of information and the absence of evidence is very
significant. At other times when we have very little data mere
absence of evidence tells us little and even priority may be an
artifact of mere chance survivals.

>In any event, does anyone have any comments about the "language
>of the Buddha," Buddhist texts antedating the Pali canon, etc?

The term Paa.li for the language of these texts is an innovation
dating from around the 17th century. Before that the language was
referred to as Maagadha-bhaasaa and this is certainly the correct
name for it - in use for nearly two millennia, if not longer. (The
fact that various grammarians use the name Maagadhii in other ways is
irrelevant to this.)

Lance Cousins

--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK  Tue Sep 19 08:35:18 2000
From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 10:35:18 +0200
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061700.23782.16061726626786734896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As for the bibliographical aspect of your question regarding the language of early Buddhism and the Buddha, you may take a look at:

"Die Sprache der ?ltesten buddhistischen ?berlieferung = The Language of the Earliest Buddhist Tradition: Symposien zur Buddhismusforschung, II)", ed. Heinz Bechert, 1980, Abhandlungen der Akademie der Wissenschaften in G?ttingen, Philologisch-Historische Klasse : Folge 3 ; Nr. 117, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht in G?ttingen, ISBN 3-525-82397-5

Regards,
Ulrich T. Kragh
University of Copenhagen



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Farmer" <saf at SAFARMER.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 3:27 AM
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?


> I have a question touching on, or rather going a step beyond, the
> Buddha redating issue.
>
> A prominent Vedicist (who does not participate on this list) sent
> out an email the other day with the following intriguing comment.
> His point arose out of a previous discussion of the links between
> Vedic and Buddhist traditions:
>
> > Pali texts are
> > certainly not the oldest of Buddhist texts, and Pali was not the
> > language of the Buddha or of the early Buddhist community. This
> > is a myth propagated in the 19th century by the Pali Text Society
> > etc. There certainly are very old documents within the Pali canon
> > -- e.g. the Suttanipata, and within it the Attakavagga (see
> > Vetter's article on this).
>
> I take it that he is referring here to Vetter's arguments (e.g.,
> in his 1988 monograph, pp. 101 ff.) concerning pre-Buddhist
> strata in the Attakavagga. But I have no information about his
> reference to Pali not being the "language of the Buddha or of the
> early Buddhist community." Can someone more knowledgeable about
> than I am about recent Buddhist studies help me out with
> bibliography in any European language?
>
> In general, I should point out that I take arguments about the
> historicity of "the Buddha" with deep skepticism, since ancient
> biographies of figures like this (cf. "Confucius," "Aristotle,"
> "Jesus," etc.) were invariably late constructs, reflecting
> scattered data in rapidly growing textual canons (collected
> syncretically to generate figures who eventually reached cosmic
> dimensions), self-serving claims by warring schools, and other
> equally dubious sources. Indeed, I think that strong
> cross-cultural models can be built for how biographies like these
> grew over time. The credence that these biographies (stripped
> only of their miraculous elements) are still given even by modern
> researchers rests on no stronger grounds than the fact that they
> have been endlessly repeated.
>
> Hence I view the redatings of early Buddhism by Bechert et
> al.(which I fully support) to be redatings of the Pali canon and
> not of "the Buddha" -- and am hence equally skeptical about
> claims about "the language of the Buddha" (not only don't pot
> speak, as the saying has it, but neither do biographical
> constructs - or if they do they are surely multilingual). I've
> been surprised to find that claims concerning the "historical
> Buddha" are still widely accepted by Buddhist scholars, even
> revisionists following in Bechert's path. (The argument is always
> about *when* "the Buddha" died, not about whether or not he is a
> syncretic construct, built around a variety of "awakened"
> religious revisionits.) Vetter too (1988: xxi ff.), despite his
> work on pre-Buddhist levels of Buddhist texts, accepts a lot of
> conventional lore about the life of "the Buddha" that no one
> could *possibly* support using well-controlled evidence.
> Interestingly, these tendencies are also common in recent
> revisionist works on early Confucian works, in which efforts to
> destratify the texts are often coupled with remarkably
> traditional accounts of Confucius's "life."
>
> In any event, does anyone have any comments about the "language
> of the Buddha," Buddhist texts antedating the Pali canon, etc?
>
> Best wishes,
> Steve Farmer
>




From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Sep 19 10:40:59 2000
From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 10:40:59 +0000
Subject: Mahabharatakalin Map
Message-ID: <161227061696.23782.1133157440485245056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Shri Joshi,
The Mahabharatakaleena map that you want, is available in the Historical
Atlas of India edited by one Shwartzberg. I shall let you know the details
of the Atlas if you want.
We have it in Pune at Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapeeth and may be also Deccan
College.
Thank you,
Shreenand.


>From: "Narayan R. Joshi" <giravani at JUNO.COM>
>Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Mahabharatakalin Map
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:09:33 +0100
>
>Dear Dr.Allen W. Thrasher,Many of us are interested in the map of India at
>the time of Mahabharata for one reason or the other. Will you be kind
>enough to post it on the internet so that all of us have the advantage of
>the gaining this new information. Please let us know the exact source and
>address of the map. Is it possible to buy it at present from its source?
>Thanks. N.R. Joshi.

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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Sep 19 08:58:12 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 10:58:12 +0200
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061701.23782.13143266034920114877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 19. september 2000 03:27:
> In any event, does anyone have any comments about the "language
> of the Buddha," Buddhist texts antedating the Pali canon, etc?

The language of the Buddha has by many been supposed to be Magadhi.
According to Ulrich Schneider (Einfuerung in den Buddhismus,
Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt 1980), Pali cannot be an
eastern dialect, and the Buddha was supposed to have lived in the east. (A
comparison of Pali and the Ashokan inscriptions shows that Pali was a
western dialect.) Consequently:
1. If the Buddha lived in the East, which noone doubts, and if Pali is a
western dialect, then Pali cannot be the language of the Buddha.
Consquently, to the extent that Pali texts are old, they must have been
translated from an Eastern dialect.
2. The canonical Pali texts are mostly not a source for the other parallell
versions of the other schools, they rather go back to a common source. This
would seem to make it probable that this source was in a different
language.
S. Levi and H. Lueders have in fact demonstrated remains of an easterly
dialect in the Pali texts. Levi talks about a precanonical language.
Schneider suggests that this was a form of Ardhamagadhi that was slightly
younger than Ashoka's language. Which means that there may have been even
older versions. If you like: before the "urkanon" there was an "ururkanon".

Schneider, by the way, tries to reconstruct the wanderings of the
historical Buddha on the basis of the texts. It would perhaps be an
advantage to agree upon what the term "historical" actually means, or
rather what should be the necessary criteria for regarding something as
historical. Studies of oral histories in comparison with parallel
documented histories show that oral histories as a matter of principle
should be doubted, but that they sometimes do contain correct (or
reasonably correct) historical information. (I need hardly say that written
documents are not always trustworthy either). Given the modern
preoccupation in South Asia with early history, a basic discussion of
method might perhaps be useful.

Best regards,

Lars Martin

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From athr at LOC.GOV  Tue Sep 19 15:35:32 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 11:35:32 -0400
Subject: India at time of Mahabharata map
Message-ID: <161227061719.23782.16775704658523036264.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am investigating having the map scanned into the Library of
Congress's collection of scanned maps or  onto some other site.

The map is NOT the same as the one in the Schwartzberg atlas.

I think I erred in saying this had been distributed to participants
in the LC Cooperative Acquisitions Program.  The card number (LCCN) is
not a field office number.  I suspect I presented LC its copy some
time ago.

The publisher, Deccan Printing Works, does not appear in the Pune
telephone directory now.


Allen Thrasher






Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Tue Sep 19 10:38:20 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 11:38:20 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061708.23782.3582584969402774123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:31:59 -0500, Hans Henrich Hock
<hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU> wrote:

>This dating of the Mahabharata is predicated on the assumption that
>the Sarasvati dried out in 1700 B.C. The assumption, however, is
>questionable as shown by Rafique Mughal's early and pioneering work
>on the dense archaeological sites along the old Sarasvati
>river--Mughal concludes that the final drying up took place late in
>the 2nd millennium BC or even early 1st millennium.  See also
>Possehl's more recent summary in "Indus Age: The beginnings".   Here
>as elsewhere it would be desirable to use sounder -- and more
>critical -- philological methodology before accepting ideologically
>inspired interpretations of the South Asian past, no matter what the
>ideology.
>
>Off the soapbox and back to work!  (That's an instruction to myself.)
>
>Hans Henrich Hock
>
>
>
>
>
>>If you go by the dates when they were written , which you correctly assign
>>a range between 400 BCE and some others ( Radhakrishnan -AROUND 200 bce )
>>when Brahmi script came into use , nothing can be established for any of
>>the epics . If this is so, how can one assign any date for the Vedas  such
>>as mention of iron ( ayas etc ) in them ?
>>
>>I had stated in  two parts, how the Mahabharat could be thought to have
>>taken place on or before 1700 BCE because the Saraswati river dried out at
>>that time. Mahabharat mentions about Balram 's pilgrimage along the
>>Saraswati river .  Fitzgerald mentions about the process used in making
>>steel, a high quality steel in the descriptions of Mahabharat .
>>Fitzgerald's finding appears very reasonable to me .
>>
>>Pl note that , to this date, no script has been found  where the events in
>>India could have been written even around 800 BCE . Does it mean nothing
>>very eventful happened in India before say, 1000 BCE ?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Anand M. Sharan
>>
>>So, how can one verify the authenticity of the dates ?
>
>--
>
>Hans Henrich Hock, Director
>Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies
>220 International Studies Building, MC-489
>910 S. Fifth Street
>Champaign IL 61820
>217-265-5016, 217-244-7331
>fax 217-333-6270
>e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu
>***Visit our website at:
>           http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/

The following are my responses to those who have participated or interested
on this topic :

1. I have referred to Fitzgerald's work on the use of iron in Mahabharat,
not for dating Mahabharat .
2. The date of Mahabharat has been estimated to be earlier than 1700 BCE
based on drying up of the Saraswati river  which was mentioned in the
Mahabharat . Balram made a pilgrimage along the river just before the war .
3. The events prior to Mahabharat, Indus Valley civilization clearly shows
the state of development of non ferrous metallurgy during this civilization.
4. Events, much after, 5th Century BCE have shown the ferrous ( Iron -
Steel ) to be very well developed. The steel was exported from India. The
famous Damiscus steel technology was Indian.
5.India had the raw materials as well as the technology to step into the
Iron Age in the ancient times which many countries did not have.
6. The web site regarding the drying up of the Saraswati river is:
http://inic.utexas.edu/asnic/saraswatisindhucivization.html
One can cofirm the date of my statement as to when the Saraswati river
dried out .
7. The dates of Hitites , who are supposed to have started the Iron Age,
has been revised and ascertained to be more recent .
8 . This leaves India as one of the possible places where the Iron Age
began.9. This seems to be another Arabic Numeral debate as to where they
were used first.

Thanks in Advance.

Anand M. Sharan




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Tue Sep 19 15:42:51 2000
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 11:42:51 -0400
Subject: zaNa (hemp)
Message-ID: <161227061717.23782.7460048503754300907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:

> --- Geeta Bharathan <geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Corchorus capsularis and Corchorus olitorius (family Tiliaceae) are
> > sources of jute fibre that makes jute/gunny bags.
>
>  "gunny" as in gunny-bag comes from tamil word, "ka.n.ni"("rope","knot")etc.,
>  Check Madras univ. Lexicon; will look into my copy of Hobson-Jobson.

Hobson-Jobson says:
gunny derived from Skt goNi ; jute from Oriya jhoto/jhuto;
(They discount derivation of jute from Skt jata, matted hair--which etymology my
English dictionary gives).

--Geeta




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Tue Sep 19 15:51:54 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 11:51:54 -0400
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b5ed324eb551@[213.105.126.141]>
Message-ID: <161227061721.23782.4105668168723715901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The use of the term Maagadha as referring to an inhabitant of Magadha is
at least as old as the Atharvaveda, which predates the consolidation of
Magadhan hegemony.  Thus it is very likely that the dialect of Magadha was
called Maagadhii long before the hegemonic political developments.  This
of course does not prove that the Buddha spoke a dialect which was called
Maagadhii.  Best,
                                        Madhav Deshpande

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, L.S.Cousins wrote:

> Lars Fosse writes:
> >The language of the Buddha has by many been supposed to be Magadhi.
>
> The historical context in which the Buddha is depicted appears to
> predate the consolidation of Magadhan hegemony over a large area of
> eastern India. So we can be fairly certain that whatever he spoke it
> was not called Maagadhii at the time.
>
> Whatever dialect he spoke would have been more related to the
> dialects in use in Kosala/Benares or Videha. There is no reason to
> suppose that would have been the same as the dialect spoken in
> Maagadha proper.
>
> Later of course the long period of rule from a capital in the area of
> modern Patna may well have given a dialect from that area some kind
> of administrative or cultural priority, but it would be quite
> anachronistic to suppose that things would have been the same earlier.
>
> >According to Ulrich Schneider (Einfuerung in den Buddhismus,
> >Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt 1980), Pali cannot be an
> >eastern dialect, and the Buddha was supposed to have lived in the east. (A
> >comparison of Pali and the Ashokan inscriptions shows that Pali was a
> >western dialect.) Consequently:
> >1. If the Buddha lived in the East, which noone doubts, and if Pali is a
> >western dialect, then Pali cannot be the language of the Buddha.
> >Consquently, to the extent that Pali texts are old, they must have been
> >translated from an Eastern dialect.
>
> The use of 'eastern' and 'western' to designate a linguistic
> distinction is confusing. We know very little about the distribution
> and variation, but it may well have varied considerably. In other
> words, some so-called 'western' dialects were probably found in
> geographically eastern areas. Moreover, there were undoubtedly
> dialects with some 'eastern' features and not others.
>
> The Asokan evidence in particular is controversial and may represent
> early tendencies towards Sanskritization rather than local dialects
> in the west. It is in any case quite limited.
>
> >2. The canonical Pali texts are mostly not a source for the other parallell
> >versions of the other schools, they rather go back to a common source. This
> >would seem to make it probable that this source was in a different
> >language.
>
> I doubt the assumption that there was ever a single dialect in which
> the Buddhist suttas were transmitted. They may have been handed down
> in multiple dialects from the beginning.
>
> Lance Cousins
> --
> HEADINGTON, UK
>
> CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
> selwyn at ntlworld.com
>




From AppuArchie at NETZERO.NET  Tue Sep 19 11:04:48 2000
From: AppuArchie at NETZERO.NET (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 12:04:48 +0100
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <39C6C0A1.C12CB46E@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227061722.23782.3274384737967102969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Religion in the wrong hands can be more dangerous than opium products.
Buddhism of the "self-centered and arrogant, concealing self-aggrandizement
behind a facade of "social service"" Buddhist Monks who wield enough
influence to corrupt the Sinhala political leaders much to the detriment of
Buddhism.Religious power lies in the continuing, generating, developing and
assimilating acts of individuals based on faith. Buddhism is attributed to
one Buddha's power. Whether such a genius existed or not is hard to
establish to the full satisfaction of the human five senses. Nevertheless,
Buddhism has existed for centuries according to Tamil literature in Tamil
Nadu.

In the Saint Manikkavasagar's works, it is noted that a King of Ceylon with
his dumb daughter visited Chidambaram (Famous Siva temple in Tamil Nadu)
accompanied by a Buddhist High Priest and an entourage of Buddhist Monks to
meet Tamil Saiva dignitaries and defeat them in a debate. Saint
Manikkavasagar led the Saiva debate team that took place in the temple in
the presence of the Chola King. Saivites won the debate and the Buddhists
became abusive and ridiculed Saivism. The Saint led a prayer and seizing the
opportunity the King from Ceylon requested the Saint to make his dumb
daughter speak. Saint not only cured her affliction but she could answer
some of the questions posed earlier. The King thereafter embraced Saivism.

"To err is human", therefore a perfect God could not have created these
imperfect humans. Faltering humans created religious Gods that helped many
to act with restraint. However, in the light of technological power and
Globalization of material gains, cultural and religious fervent exponents
will carry this to an extent that will lead to future clashes. The
establishment of the US Commission on Religious Freedom by an act of
Congress does not auger well for the independence of religions from state
interference within and outside the US.

Every religion is bent on establishing its superiority over others and not
the power and glory of the "Ageless, Endless and the Effulgent Source of
Energy" (THIRUVEMPAVAI) or "God is Love" truth that makes us the LIVING
humans. Saint Manikkavasagar is no exception to this human weakness
expressed in "ACHAPPATTU - Ten Verses on Fear"

"I fear not the anthill snake
        I fear not the truth of the untrue
        He is my Lord of the lumpy locks
        With the third Cyclops eye
        I seek his footsteps
        I fear them who sustain the existence
        Of another God and not learnt of My Lord."


-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Steve
Farmer
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:27 AM
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?


I have a question touching on, or rather going a step beyond, the
Buddha redating issue.

A prominent Vedicist (who does not participate on this list) sent
out an email the other day with the following intriguing comment.
His point arose out of a previous discussion of the links between
Vedic and Buddhist traditions:

> Pali texts are
> certainly not the oldest of Buddhist texts, and Pali was not the
> language of the Buddha or of the early Buddhist community. This
> is a myth propagated in the 19th century by the Pali Text Society
> etc. There certainly are very old documents within the Pali canon
> -- e.g. the Suttanipata, and within it the Attakavagga (see
> Vetter's article on this).

I take it that he is referring here to Vetter's arguments (e.g.,
in his 1988 monograph, pp. 101 ff.) concerning pre-Buddhist
strata in the Attakavagga. But I have no information about his
reference to Pali not being the "language of the Buddha or of the
early Buddhist community." Can someone more knowledgeable about
than I am about recent Buddhist studies help me out with
bibliography in any European language?

In general, I should point out that I take arguments about the
historicity of "the Buddha" with deep skepticism, since ancient
biographies of figures like this (cf. "Confucius," "Aristotle,"
"Jesus," etc.) were invariably late constructs, reflecting
scattered data in rapidly growing textual canons (collected
syncretically to generate figures who eventually reached cosmic
dimensions), self-serving claims by warring schools, and other
equally dubious sources. Indeed, I think that strong
cross-cultural models can be built for how biographies like these
grew over time. The credence that these biographies (stripped
only of their miraculous elements) are still given even by modern
researchers rests on no stronger grounds than the fact that they
have been endlessly repeated.

Hence I view the redatings of early Buddhism by Bechert et
al.(which I fully support) to be redatings of the Pali canon and
not of "the Buddha" -- and am hence equally skeptical about
claims about "the language of the Buddha" (not only don't pot
speak, as the saying has it, but neither do biographical
constructs - or if they do they are surely multilingual). I've
been surprised to find that claims concerning the "historical
Buddha" are still widely accepted by Buddhist scholars, even
revisionists following in Bechert's path. (The argument is always
about *when* "the Buddha" died, not about whether or not he is a
syncretic construct, built around a variety of "awakened"
religious revisionits.) Vetter too (1988: xxi ff.), despite his
work on pre-Buddhist levels of Buddhist texts, accepts a lot of
conventional lore about the life of "the Buddha" that no one
could *possibly* support using well-controlled evidence.
Interestingly, these tendencies are also common in recent
revisionist works on early Confucian works, in which efforts to
destratify the texts are often coupled with remarkably
traditional accounts of Confucius's "life."

In any event, does anyone have any comments about the "language
of the Buddha," Buddhist texts antedating the Pali canon, etc?

Best wishes,
Steve Farmer




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Tue Sep 19 06:38:14 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 12:08:14 +0530
Subject: Material for correct time of observance of Hindu holidays in              English
Message-ID: <161227061698.23782.4469379398288275860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

You may like to look at L D S Pillai(c.1912)An Indian Ephemeris.AD 1800-AD
2000)(Madras). See the Intoduction. Or any other publication by him.
Rajesh Kochhar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++--



---Original Message-----
From: Harry Spier <harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Monday, September 18, 2000 9:13 PM
Subject: Material for correct time of observance of Hindu holidays in
English


>Dear list members,
>
>I am looking for any material in English that gives the rules for the
>correct time of observance of Hindu holidays.  One of the list members has
>directed me to Vol. 5 part 1 of "The History of Dharmashastra" by P.V.
Kane.
>  If any of the members can give me references to any other material in
>English I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Sep 19 10:21:29 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 12:21:29 +0200
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061707.23782.17151911058689779007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran [SMTP:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 19. september 2000 12:02:
> Take also into consideration the distinct nature of  Buddhist philosophy
-
> the whole system developed from the negative
> standpoint of anatta - whoever started it - whether his name was
> Gautama or not - is a genius - a "Buddha" without doubt. To say such
> a one didn't exist is to condemn as liars a host of great Buddhist
> philosophers down the ages who spent a good part of their lives
propagating
> the teachings of their revered master.

This is a misconception. To believe in a person that didn't exist does not
prove anybody a liar. You are only a liar if you consciously lie.
Otherwise, if you say something that is not correct, you are simply wrong.
Nor is it a valid argument that non-Buddhists mention the Buddha etc. The
existence of the Buddha was an established "fact" in India, whether he
existed or not. There is, by the way, a weakness in Steve Farmer's
argument. Claiming that traditions evolve in a certain manner does not in
itself disprove the existence of Jesus or the Buddha. The mechanisms behind
the development of the traditions that Steve describes may be perfectly
correct, and yet both Jesus and the Buddha may have existed. The question
is rather: what did they really do, and what did they really say - if they
existed? The (not canonical) gospel of Thomas gives a totally different
picture of Jesus than the canonical gospels. Which picture is correct? The
question opens for endless arguments, and scholars are stuck in a labyrinth
they cannot escape unless they choose to believe in the traditional
authority of the Church, which defines which gospels are "correct".

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Sep 19 12:15:27 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 13:15:27 +0100
Subject: Ancient Indians and the science of flying
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000091714543762@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061710.23782.1117634618076993587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Narayan R. Joshi wrote:
[...]

> The book,"Brihad Vimanashastra" by the ancient sage Bharadvaja is well
> known to Indologists.

On the contrary, I'm afraid it is the general opinion of indologists that
such a book is a modern creation of the mid-twentieth century.

A quick glance through the standard index to Sanskrit literature in
manuscript, Aufrecht's Catalogus Catalogorum, shows that no work called
"Brhadvimanasastra" nor "Vimanasastra" exists.

I have answered this query more fully in message #8932 of June 1997 which
is in the INDOLOGY archive.  See:

http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9706&L=indology&P=R16191


--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Tue Sep 19 23:07:21 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 16:07:21 -0700
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061724.23782.17366882040825468190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Much thanks to Lance Cousins, Lars Martin Fosse, Ulrich T. Kragh,
et al., for their helpful posts. Also to Michael Witzel, who also
pointed me offline to Bechert's _Die Sprache der ?ltesten
Buddhistischen ?berlieferung_ and provided other
linguistic data - including some contradicting
the claims in other posts. I guess that I can assume from
this - as well as from Madhav Deshpande's post - that the
field is far from a consensus on the questions that I
was asking.

I'll add only a few comments on the biographical side of
the issue. On the linguistic questions, I want to
study _Die Sprache_ and the other sources
that I've been pointed to before saying anything more.

I'd like to start by emphasizing that I'm far from
dogmatic on the biographical issue - in my post I was
poking sticks in hornets' nests to see what would come out (a
comparative historian's trick to get data fast) - and wouldn't
seriously compare my knowledge of early Buddhist texts
with those of specialists like Lance Cousins or others on
this list.

This said, I'm not convinced at all that
belief or doubt about traditional accounts of the life
of "the Buddha" has much to do with specialized knowledge of
Buddhist texts. It concerns instead methodological attitudes
about what *kinds* of evidence are acceptable in reconstructing
ancient biographies. If the situation is radically different
in the case of "the Buddha" than in the case of "Confucius,"
"Aristotle," "Jesus," etc., I'd appreciate it if Lance or
someone else could point out the circumstances
that make it unique in comparative history in ancient times.

I wrote:

>In general, ...I take arguments about the
>historicity of "the Buddha" with deep skepticism, since ancient
>biographies of figures like this (cf. "Confucius," "Aristotle,"
>"Jesus," etc.) were invariably late constructs.

Lance Cousins wrote:

> 'Invariably' ? This is an extremely strong claim. So strong that one
> example is sufficient to refute it. How about Alexander ? Can we
> conclude from the proliferation of the Alexander legend that we
> should have 'deep scepticism' as to the historicity of Alexander ?

All I suggested (see my lines again) is that
the *biographies* of these figures were late (better: compilational)
constructs. It would be difficult to argue with this
conclusion, since multiple (and indeed conflicting) biographical
accounts of their lives exist. My point about being skeptical
about the historicity of these half-mythical figures was to
suggest that because of the way their biographies were compiled,
even when it is clear that one of these figures existed, we can't
say much or sometimes anything about their lives.

And, pace Lance, this is true as well of Alexander, leaving aside
the barest facts concerning his conquests and his approximate death
dates. Check out sometime the evidence of Alexander's famous
(and almost certainly fictive) relations with Aristotle, whose
biographies are even more suspect. Indeed, a number of
classicists since the late 19th century have argued against
traditional scholars, I think on firm grounds, that
the Aristotelian corpus was compiled over several hundred
years, the same as (we know now) the Confucian _Analects_ -
that it was a "school" product and not the
creation of the eponymous creator of the school. This view
undermines a huge part of the biographical data about Aristotle
found in Diogenes Laertes and other traditional biographies.

The case for veracity in biographies is even weaker in respect to
religious reformers or philosophers who left no texts of their
own behind. Sometime compare the conflicting pictures of Socrates
in Xenophon and in the Platonic corpus and other sources. Within
a decade or so after his traditional death date, "Socrates"
was, for all practical purposes, a fictional character on whom
everyone was tacking his own ideas ad libitum. One way to get
your views accepted, in fact, was to ascribe them to "Socrates"
in a convincing literary treatise. (They even trained people to
imitate Socrates in the schools!) What did the real Socrates believe,
insofar as he existed at all? Was he the nosey busybody we find
in Xenophon's _Memorabilia_, prepared to give advice to everyone
(in one passage, we see him telling a whore to hire a pimp if
she wants rich clients)?  Supposedly, Xenophon knew Socrates
well, but *his* Socrates who offered gossipy advice to
whores and carpenters is *not* the learned-ignorance Socrates
that the history books have quietly adopted
as the real historical figure. Tradition opted (for
reasons of historical decorum, not evidence) for the Socrates
found in the _Apology_ and _Phaedo_ in the Platonic corpus
(but not the Socrates in *other* parts of the Platonic corpus,
e.g., in the _Cratylus_ or _Timaeus_.).

The case is of course much worse for
figures like Laozi (= Lao Tzu = "Old Master") who few
scholars today (except for traditionalists in China, the
sinological equivalent of indology's OITers) think existed at
all. A generation or two ago, however, his
historicity was taken for granted by just about everyone - on
grounds not much better than those re "the Buddha" = "the
Awakened."

Same for the "Confucius" in the _Analects_. Only in the last decade
has it become widely accepted that the portrait of "Confucius"
seen in that text was not the product of his immediate disciples,
but the creation of 240-odd years of accretional processes
developed in rapidly shifting school environments. Indeed,
now that we know more about the way the text was stratified, we
can watch key elements in his traditional "biography" emerge
in layer after layer of the document.

Where does "the Buddha" fit in on the continuum between Alexander
and Socrates and Confucius and Laozi? Exactly what
biographical facts about him do we really know? Would anyone here
dare to list these biographical facts (I raise this as a genuine
challenge)? I doubt that the list would be long. Even the very
short list offered by Vetter (after E. Lamotte) is filled with
highly questionable and undocumented elements.

Can one safely say that he was a teacher of meditation born
somewhere in the sixth or fifth centuries someplace in Eastern
India, dying at some undefined time in the fifth or fourth
centuries? If that's the limit of our knowledge, how can we
distinguish him in any meaningful way from other meditation
teachers from the same general period? In teachings? Which
ones? Many schools of meditation were arising throughout
Eurasia in the 4th century, largely in reaction to
scholasticizing trends already at work in stratified traditions
in China, India, Greece. I don't see anything in the early
Buddhist teachings that I can't find in China or the West
in the 4th century - and presumably in countless other
anti-Vedic reformers in India.

Did he indeed have a wife and a son named
Raahula? Did he abandon domestic life for a mendicant's life
around his thirtieth year, as per some traditional accounts,
or was this a "must have happened" story reconstructed later,
based on expectations about how an ideal mendicant would act? Did
he visit all the places mentioned in his lives, or are
these there because these are the literary settings of Buddha
stories (certainly most of them fictional) retold in the early
suttas? We know that invented biographical elements like this
were *quickly* inserted into the life of Jesus, as Lars Martin
Fosse even suggests in one of his posts. Indeed, a lot of recent
scholars claim that all that we legitimately know about "Jesus"
consists of a handful of sayings devoid of all historical
context in lower strata of the so-called Q document, and
that *all* the biographical details - even including
the crucifixion, according to some - were compiled from
hints in earlier messianic writings and "must have happened"
stories about how messiahs were *supposed* to live and die.

Indeed, other stories attached to Jesus's "lives" demonstrably
came from stories of *other* wisemen or common currency of
battling schools coopted by the Christians. Do you want
a homosexual Jesus in the mode of Platonic philosophers? Or
portraits of Jesus as a magician, like his (supposed)
contemporary Apollonius of Tyara? They are there (along
with portraits of Jesus as an ascetic and condemner of
magic) in the early biographical literature. Even a good
percentage of the words attributed to
Jesus come from Old Testament passages, apparently
ascribed to him by early biographers looking for
hints in the old canon to flesh out the skimpy list of
detached sayings from "Jesus" that they possessed.

There may be somewhat less variation in early images of
"Buddha" due to monastic constraints, but there still seems
to be plenty of it.

We see this kind of conflation of early historical figures
everywhere else in Eurasia - and massive fusion of Jainist
and Buddhist ideas as well in later periods. It would seem
normal to me to assume that the same kind of conflations
existed in the case of "the Buddha" at an early date -
resulting in his "lives" being a composite of stories
taken from multiple sources. Isn't
this, in fact, exactly what we see in the Jaatakas?
Why shouldn't the same mythologizing/conflational processes
exist at the earliest stages of the religion? You can't
just strip the miraculous elements out of the
traditional lives and accept the ordinary sounding (to
our ears) biographical data as "real," modernizing the
myths. (That is the standard trick used in
reconstructing the lives of "Confucius," "Alexander," and
other figures of this sort from the hagiographical mess we
inherit from tradition: bad philology.)

Lance writes further:

> It would be a mistake to insist on 'well-controlled evidence' in this
> context. That would simply amount to a concealed argument from
> silence. The kind of criteria you seem to want to use are those
> appropriate to a time and place where we have a lot of data. If a
> figure supposed to have existed in 16th century Europe is not
> mentioned until the 18th century we would rightly be very suspicious,
> especially if he is claimed to have been well-known, etc. At that
> time we have a lot of information and the absence of evidence is very
> significant. At other times when we have very little data mere
> absence of evidence tells us little and even priority may be an
> artifact of mere chance survivals.

I don't know what "a concealed argument from silence" is,
but I certainly differ with the rest of your paragraph.
You can't turn off critical judgment and accept traditional
stories just because the evidence is scarce. Otherwise, why not
accept with the OIT crowd the evidence in the Puranas and
Mahabharata concerning early Vedic history?! (Bad company!)
Those have as much credibility (= near nil) as the early
Buddha lives as historical documents in the narrow sense.
If we were to loosen demands for evidence in this fashion
everywhere in ancient history, we would be led to accept Laozi
too as an historical figure. Recently, however, we've found
good evidence (in comparing the Mawangdui and Guodian tomb
versions of the Laozi with the received text) that the texts
ascribed to him were pieced together at a very late
date from earlier, and apparently originally unconnected,
sources. Attempts to find a single author for the work led to
the invention of "the Old Master."

The case of "the Buddha" may not be as extreme as that of
"Laozi," but the parallels with "Confucius" are suggestive.

I wrote:

>Hence I view the redatings of early Buddhism by Bechert et
>al.(which I fully support) to be redatings of the Pali canon and
>not of "the Buddha."

Lance responded:

> This is just wrong. These redatings are nothing to do with the Pali
> Canon which doesn't exist before the early first century B.C. at the
> very earliest. They are not even redatings of the earliest texts
> contained in the Pali Canon, since such issues are mostly not being
> addressed. They are attempting to locate the date of the historical
> figure whose place of death was marked by Asoka in the third century
> B.C. with a pillar at Lumbini. Note that there may have been people
> alive at this time who had spoken to people who met the Buddha in
> their youth.
>
> This is particularly true if one follows Bechert himself who adopts a
> very late date 'close to Alexander' (or something like that) or
> follows the traditional Sarvaastivaadin dating uncritically as do
> Charles Willemen and company.

(1) I wasn't speaking of the time when the Pali canon was written
down, but of the period when the works in it were orally composed,
which was long before the early 1st century BCE, as I understand
it; at a minimum, the canon contains data supposedly associated
with the historical "Buddha"; (2) The statement "there may have
been people alive at this time [the time of Asoka] who had spoken
to people who met the Buddha in their youth" - besides being
obviously conjectural - says nothing about the veracity of
biographical accounts of his "life." The same was even *more*
true of people who were alive when the many
early (and sharply conflicting) "lives" of Jesus (many as old as
any found in the synoptic gospels) were written down.
Same for the stories of Socrates, of course (see above).

Correction of the dates that Lance claims are given by Bechert
for the death of "the Buddha": In all of Bechert's papers in or
after the 3 vols. of _The Dating of the Historical Buddha_, he
places the dates roughly between c. 400 and 350 BCE, and
does NOT endorse a date "close to Alexander." Bechert vehemently
*denies* that the dates can be given more precisely than c. 350
to 400 BCE, claiming that he has been misrepresented in the
past on this issue.

Thanks again to Lance Cousins et al. for the criticism and
data, especially re his views of the language of the Buddha. I'll read
the Bechert volume on that topic ASAP. This is probably my last
post in the thread: I must get back to my own research (these posts
were written on breaks, on a whim). And I've pretty much
exhausted what I have to say, in any case, and seem to be a chorus
of one voice only. Eppur si muove (maybe)!

Steve Farmer




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Tue Sep 19 15:14:32 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 16:14:32 +0100
Subject: Slate and chalk
Message-ID: <161227061712.23782.6617688081837496536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Among the strange manners and customs of the Hindus noted by Alberuni in
11th century India, there is (Sachau translation) :

  "They use black tablets for the children in the schools, and write upon
them along the long side, not the broad side, writing with a white material
from the left to the right.  One would think that the author of the
following verses had meant the Hindus :--

      "How many a writer uses paper as black as charcoal,
       Whilst his pen writes on it with white colour.
       By writing he places a bright day in a dark night,
       Weaving like a weaver, but without adding a woof." "

----
Alberuni found slate and chalk to be strange.  I do not know where the
verses Alberuni gives are from.

It occurred to me that a history of the use of slate and chalk for writing
may be interesting.  Does any such exist ?

-Arun Gupta




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Tue Sep 19 15:24:16 2000
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 16:24:16 +0100
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <01C02229.B06B4F00.lmfosse@online.no>
Message-ID: <161227061715.23782.5532739852307926444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Fosse writes:
>The language of the Buddha has by many been supposed to be Magadhi.

The historical context in which the Buddha is depicted appears to
predate the consolidation of Magadhan hegemony over a large area of
eastern India. So we can be fairly certain that whatever he spoke it
was not called Maagadhii at the time.

Whatever dialect he spoke would have been more related to the
dialects in use in Kosala/Benares or Videha. There is no reason to
suppose that would have been the same as the dialect spoken in
Maagadha proper.

Later of course the long period of rule from a capital in the area of
modern Patna may well have given a dialect from that area some kind
of administrative or cultural priority, but it would be quite
anachronistic to suppose that things would have been the same earlier.

>According to Ulrich Schneider (Einfuerung in den Buddhismus,
>Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, Darmstadt 1980), Pali cannot be an
>eastern dialect, and the Buddha was supposed to have lived in the east. (A
>comparison of Pali and the Ashokan inscriptions shows that Pali was a
>western dialect.) Consequently:
>1. If the Buddha lived in the East, which noone doubts, and if Pali is a
>western dialect, then Pali cannot be the language of the Buddha.
>Consquently, to the extent that Pali texts are old, they must have been
>translated from an Eastern dialect.

The use of 'eastern' and 'western' to designate a linguistic
distinction is confusing. We know very little about the distribution
and variation, but it may well have varied considerably. In other
words, some so-called 'western' dialects were probably found in
geographically eastern areas. Moreover, there were undoubtedly
dialects with some 'eastern' features and not others.

The Asokan evidence in particular is controversial and may represent
early tendencies towards Sanskritization rather than local dialects
in the west. It is in any case quite limited.

>2. The canonical Pali texts are mostly not a source for the other parallell
>versions of the other schools, they rather go back to a common source. This
>would seem to make it probable that this source was in a different
>language.

I doubt the assumption that there was ever a single dialect in which
the Buddhist suttas were transmitted. They may have been handed down
in multiple dialects from the beginning.

Lance Cousins
--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Tue Sep 19 18:29:30 2000
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 19:29:30 +0100
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10009191147430.12481-100000@seawolf.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227061733.23782.9097043430770785460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav Deshpande points out:

>The use of the term Maagadha as referring to an inhabitant of Magadha is
>at least as old as the Atharvaveda, which predates the consolidation of
>Magadhan hegemony.  Thus it is very likely that the dialect of Magadha was
>called Maagadhii long before the hegemonic political developments.  This
>of course does not prove that the Buddha spoke a dialect which was called
>Maagadhii.  Best,

I take it that the Maagadhaa are a tribe who lived around the area of
Rajgir.  The area they controlled is therefore called called the
country or kingdom of the Maagadhans and/or the kingdom of the
Maagadha prince.

The evidence of the early Buddhist texts (whether in Pali or Sanskrit
or in translation) is clear that Kaasi, Kosala and Videha were not
part of the territories of the Maagadha-raaja. There is no reason to
suppose that they spoke a language called Maagadhii. They certainly
spoke a dialect of Middle Indian. We do not know in what ways that
differed from Maagadhii; it might have differed a lot or only a
little, but some difference is likely.

Or, are you suggesting that there is explicit Atharva evidence for
the use of the term Maagadha as applying more widely ? That seems
offhand very unlikely.

Lance Cousins
--
HEADINGTON, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn at ntlworld.com




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 20 03:35:53 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 00 23:35:53 -0400
Subject: Material for correct time of observance of Hindu holidays              inEnglish
Message-ID: <161227061726.23782.14943092701196483622.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

In going thru a reprint of "Hindu Holidays and Ceremonials" by B.A. Gupte ,
1916 I've come across something perplexing.  He lists Shivaratri as the 13th
of the month, and Mahashivaratri as the 13th of Magha both in his index and
the text of the article itself.  Is there any possible reason other than
error why he would list shivaratri as the 13th and not the 14th?

On the title page it notes that he was Assistant Director of Ethnography for
India so it seems strange that he would make such a simple error.

Many thanks,

Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 20 05:16:48 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 05:16:48 +0000
Subject: Material for correct time of observance of Hindu holidays              inEnglish
Message-ID: <161227061729.23782.17339142278456388284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>In going thru a reprint of "Hindu Holidays and Ceremonials" by B.A. Gupte ,
>1916 I've come across something perplexing.  He lists Shivaratri as the
>13th
>of the month, and Mahashivaratri as the 13th of Magha both in his index and
>the text of the article itself.  Is there any possible reason other than
>error why he would list shivaratri as the 13th and not the 14th?

He must have listed it according to the actual practice. tithi is calculated
according to the phase of the moon at sunrise, but Sivaratri is to be
observed through the night, not through the day. Usually, the chances are
that if the moon is in its 13th phase at sunrise, it will enter the 14th
phase during the night (if it has not already passed into the 14th, in the
middle of the solar day). By the time the 14th day passes into the night,
amAvAsyA would have begun. So the Sivaratri observance generally starts
during the night of the 13th, and continues into the morning of the 14th.

Vidyasankar
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From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep 20 12:59:47 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 05:59:47 -0700
Subject: tvA.sa
Message-ID: <161227061743.23782.2199192062973334483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could anyone tell me if there is or was a word tvA.sa
in any dravidian language?
                    Marina Orelskaya


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From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Sep 20 15:23:27 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 08:23:27 -0700
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061749.23782.528415723801238318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for the new posts and bibliography from Lance Cousins, Jan
E.M. Houben, Georg von Simson, and Lars Martin Fosse. All are
greatly appreciated. The bibliography of concordant voices is
especially appreciated: it is reassuring to know that I'm not a
chorus of one. M. Witzel has pointed out some striking
etymological evidence about various names associated with the
supposedly "historical" Buddha and family members that I'd like
to discuss sometime, but I'm blowing a deadline and can't.

Further discussion is not needed, in any case, since Lars has
already raised the clincher argument by bringing Wild Bill
Hickock and Calamity Jane into the picture. QED!  :^)

Steve Farmer




From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM  Wed Sep 20 08:15:26 2000
From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 09:15:26 +0100
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <39C7F1A6.25DFA662@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227061747.23782.10560044247140222084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


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From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Wed Sep 20 09:25:59 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 10:25:59 +0100
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
In-Reply-To: <39C7F1A6.25DFA662@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227061740.23782.16999074654827114219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer wrote (I quote only the last sentences of his long and
interesting message):

> This is probably my last
>post in the thread:

That would be a pity!

> I must get back to my own research (these posts
>were written on breaks, on a whim). And I've pretty much
>exhausted what I have to say, in any case, and seem to be a chorus
>of one voice only.

I should like to join your chorus. Though still interested in the question
of the date of the historical Buddha - because I have the impression that
he must have been a charismatic religious leader who started a movement
that can be distinguished from other movements of his time - I would agree
with most of what you wrote about the historicity of the biographical
tradition. Every time we see a good motive for the invention of a
biographical detail, we should be sceptical (but there are still details
where it seems to be difficult to find a motive for a later invention, e.g.
the Buddha's origin from the Sakya clan). The story of a great man's life
had to be meaningful from beginning to end, and meaning was provided by the
at that time existing myths. This idea prompted me to write an article
("Characterzing by Contrast: The Case of the Buddha and Devadatta, BhISma
and KarNa", in the press) in which I try to show how mythical features are
used to characterize the Buddha.

For the rest see Jan Houben's message about earlier attempts of explaining
the details of the life of the Buddha along the line of myth. Senart was
rejected by most scholars, partly because some of his arguments seem rather
strained and the solar myth model went out of fashion after him, and partly
because he apparently went too far by explaining away the historical Buddha
altogether. It is difficult to find the right balance when you have got a
good idea!

> Eppur si muove (maybe)!

Georg v. Simson




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep 20 17:54:42 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 10:54:42 -0700
Subject: Buddha, Places He went, and the Road on Which He Walked
Message-ID: <161227061759.23782.5094392003428009412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Anand M. Sharan" <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA> wrote:
> Magadhi - South of the Ganges river but east of Sone river in Bihar

 "sONe" is "cONai" in old Tamil literature which derives from
 zaNa hemp grass. Compare with vEtravatii to vetir=grass in Tamil.
 F. Southworth thinks paaTaliputra to be a bush of paaTali flowers.



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From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Sep 20 09:05:41 2000
From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 11:05:41 +0200
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061738.23782.11011798318826922666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Farmer <saf at SAFARMER.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?


snip
> And I've pretty much
>exhausted what I have to say, in any case, and seem to be a chorus
>of one voice only.
snip

Steve, for other voices in your chorus you may look into the history of
Buddhological scholarship: Before Hermann Oldenberg wrote his Buddha: sein
Leben, seine Lehre, seine Gemeinde (first ed. 1881), a large number of
Indologists was very sceptical about the historicity of the Buddha: Emile
Senart, for instance, emphasized the structures of the myths and
de-emphasized the historical reality of the characters, just as, a few
decades later and on a more general scale, his compatriot C. Levi Strauss
and other structuralists would do. The one after whom our Indological
Institute in Leiden is called, Hendrik Kern, propounded theories about a
"solar Buddha myth" informed by astronomical knowledge. Oldenberg gave
several useful references in his scholarly bestseller (see in the index
under Senart, Kern, Franke). If you are not satisfied with voices beyond the
grave, anthropologist G. Obeyesekere in a lecture in Leiden ca. one year ago
emphasized the life and use of the Buddha-legends to such an extent that the
Buddha's historical reality became absolutely irrelevant. Unfortunately I
don't have more exact references to this lecture than the traces it left in
my memory.
Best wishes, Jan Houben

Jan E.M. Houben,
Research Fellow of the
Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences,
Kern Institute, Leiden University,
P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA   Leiden
jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Wed Sep 20 05:43:02 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 11:13:02 +0530
Subject: bankura horse
Message-ID: <161227061731.23782.592718598054703636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I shall greatly appreciate hearing from the listists about the history/mythology/chronology of the stylized Bankura horse
Rajesh Kochhar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Sep 20 09:46:46 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 11:46:46 +0200
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061742.23782.243885701907234074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 20. september 2000 01:07:
>And I've pretty much
> exhausted what I have to say, in any case, and seem to be a chorus
> of one voice only. Eppur si muove (maybe)!

I am not sure you are a one chorus voice, I think "it moves" too. In fact,
it is very tempting for me to point to some data regarding traditions
concerning legendary figures that are normally NOT mentioned in august
Indological contexts. For an illustration of how such legends accrue around
notable personalities, you may want to have a look at the personal
histories of two well-know figures from the Wild West, Wild Bill Hickock
and Calamity Jane. Both have been studied by serious scholars. (Yessirree,
you can have good, old-fashioned, down-to-earth boy room fun and be a
scholar as well!). Here are a couple of suggested readings:

Wild Bill Hickok : The Man and His Myth, by Joseph G. Rosa.
Calamity Jane: A Study in Historical Criticism, by Roberta Beed Sollid.

(I confess to not having read these books, but I have read other material.)

The basic point is that both were "legends" in their own lifetime, with the
consequence that their personal histories attracted a lot of "non-relevant"
material. Hickok was for example supposed to have shot more than a 100
people, whereas his real record was closer to 10. Since we have both the
historical documents and the oral traditions (not to mention the Hollywood
material), it is easy to see how notable personalities outgrow their own
lives and enter the world of myth. Everybody who wants to see historical
data in such texts as the Mahabharata or the Buddhist canonical biography
of the Buddha does well to study these mechanisms closely before they pass
judgement on the historicity of personalities and events. Oral history is
not always devoid of historical truth, but there are clear reasons why one
should be sceptical. When it is influenced by religious or political
concerns, there is even greater reason for being careful. The scepticism
that many academic scholars show towards the veracity of "scriptural"
information must be seen on the background that we often find oral and
documentary histories to be at loggerheads with each other. The mechanisms
of accrual that Steve Farmer describes are certainly there, my only caveat
is that they do not necessarily mean that certain persons did not exist at
all. Attila existed, although the way he is presented in Germanic legend
had precious little to do with what he really was. The same thing applies
to the emperor Theodorik.
So Caution is the word.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Wed Sep 20 09:00:38 2000
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 12:00:38 +0300
Subject: Henrique Henriques (1520-1600)
Message-ID: <161227061736.23782.6425995545845653616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" wrote:
> ...
> It will be worthy to reprint Henriques' Tamil grammar
> ("Arte de Lingua Malabar"), the first European
> grammar book on any Indian language.
>
Waiting for the reprint, it can be noted that in fact there is an
edition of Henriques's grammar, though not in facsimile:

The first European Tamil Grammar. A critical edition by Hans J. Vermeer.
English version by Angelika Morath.XXVII+166 p. Heidelberg: Julius Groos
Verlag 1982.

The text is in Portuguese and Tamil, the "English version" means the
introduction and notes. The bibliography contains some additional
references. By the way, there are many ways to write the name of the
author: Enrique Enriquez, Henrique Henriquez, or -ques, in a
contemporary source even Anrrique Anrriquez.

Regards,
Klaus


--
Klaus Karttunen, Ph.D.
Docent of Indology and Classical Ethnography
Institute of Asian and African Studies
PL 59 (Unioninkatu 38 B), 00014 University of Helsinki, FINLAND
phone 358-0-19122188, fax 358-0-19122094




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Wed Sep 20 06:48:15 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 12:18:15 +0530
Subject: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?//r-l
Message-ID: <161227061735.23782.1983887552242178800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

IS THER AN r-l divide in the Magadhi-Pali texts?
Rajesh Kochhar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}
-----Original Message-----
From: L.S.Cousins <selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: SV: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?


>Madhav Deshpande points out:
>
>>The use of the term Maagadha as referring to an inhabitant of Magadha is
>>at least as old as the Atharvaveda, which predates the consolidation of
>>Magadhan hegemony.  Thus it is very likely that the dialect of Magadha was
>>called Maagadhii long before the hegemonic political developments.  This
>>of course does not prove that the Buddha spoke a dialect which was called
>>Maagadhii.  Best,
>
>I take it that the Maagadhaa are a tribe who lived around the area of
>Rajgir.  The area they controlled is therefore called called the
>country or kingdom of the Maagadhans and/or the kingdom of the
>Maagadha prince.
>
>The evidence of the early Buddhist texts (whether in Pali or Sanskrit
>or in translation) is clear that Kaasi, Kosala and Videha were not
>part of the territories of the Maagadha-raaja. There is no reason to
>suppose that they spoke a language called Maagadhii. They certainly
>spoke a dialect of Middle Indian. We do not know in what ways that
>differed from Maagadhii; it might have differed a lot or only a
>little, but some difference is likely.
>
>Or, are you suggesting that there is explicit Atharva evidence for
>the use of the term Maagadha as applying more widely ? That seems
>offhand very unlikely.
>
>Lance Cousins
>--
>HEADINGTON, UK
>
>CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
>selwyn at ntlworld.com




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Sep 20 19:29:24 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 12:29:24 -0700
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061768.23782.10834671046462570661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Arun Gupta wrote:

> Does the following help qualify Buddha as more "historical" than Lao Tzu ?
> Does myth-building extend to creation of artifacts as well ?
.....
> "The account of the division (the Mahaparinibbana-sutta) of his relics gives
> us a detailed view of the extent of the Buddhist community, the number of
> adherents in particular places, and a synopsis of his teachings."
>
> In 1898, Pepp? excavated an old stupa at Piprahwa and found an urn with an
> inscription from the time of King Asoka or before which stated that the
> contents were the remains of the Buddha. In 1958 another urn was discovered
> in Vaisali and, though without an inscription, has been identified as
> containing his remains on the basis of its similarity to the one found by
> Pepp?."

Can't resist.

Sure it extends to artifacts. Think of Borobodur, where
the whole stratified history of Buddhism is, in a sense,
fossilized in successive layers - starting with the jaataka
materials chiseled into friezes in bottom layers to more
abstract doctrines in middle segments (surrounded by Buddhas
of all directions distributed in mandala patterns) all the
way to the grand vacant stupa at the top.

Temples of the sort you describe were also devoted to the
fictional Laozi (also to Hermes Trismegistus and other
mythic leaders of Mediterranean mystery cults.) A bit more on
what this means (nil) about the reality of these figures: we also
have detailed early accounts of Laozi's meetings with Confucius,
who is also an accretional construct - although one with more
chances of having a remote "seed" in a single personality:
E.Bruce Brooks's 1997 destratification of the Lun yu (Analects)
assigns a handful of unimpressive moral sayings (in current
Analects chapt. 4 [out of 20]) to the "historical" Confucius.
I argue with Bruce that even this is an unneeded bow
to tradition: The more critically you look at the evidence, the
more the idea of a single personality dissolves. You can see
the increasingly abstract ideas of "Confucius" emerge in
successive layers of the text that accrued over the next
two and a half centuries.

I'm fond of the stories of icons of different traditions
meeting, since this is linked to the kinds of syncretic processes
that helped transform "higher" levels of traditions in more
abstract directions than the "lower" ones (exemplified in a
nutshell in Borobodur, or in the mirroring levels of scholastic
cosmologies). Laozi meets Confucius, St. Paul and Seneca become
pen pals (letters still preserved), Aristotle becomes Alexander's
tutor, Jesus writes to Greek kings (see Eusebius!), Buddhist and
Hindu and Shinto gods enter each other's worlds as avatars,
Mesoamerican gods fuse with Christian demons or saints, etc. The
most extreme examples are found along trade routes (Indonesian
and Central and SE Asian stuff is great), e.g. in the amusing
gnostic hierarchies fusing Buddha, Jesus, Zoroastrian deities,
Moses, and more in Central Asia in late antiquity (see
Kleitman's terrific studies). Or, even better, Descartes,
Victor Hugo, and Lenin entering the pantheon in contemporary
Cao Dai cults in Vietnam. Recalling Lars Martin Fosse's post,
can Calamity Jane and Wild Bill Hickok be far behind?

S. Farmer

Arun Gupta wrote:
>
> Does the following help qualify Buddha as more "historical" than Lao Tzu ?
> Does myth-building extend to creation of artifacts as well ?
>
> -arun gupta
>
> "The account of the division (the Mahaparinibbana-sutta) of his relics gives
> us a detailed view of the extent of the Buddhist community, the number of
> adherents in particular places, and a synopsis of his teachings."
>
> In 1898, Pepp? excavated an old stupa at Piprahwa and found an urn with an
> inscription from the time of King Asoka or before which stated that the
> contents were the remains of the Buddha. In 1958 another urn was discovered
> in Vaisali and, though without an inscription, has been identified as
> containing his remains on the basis of its similarity to the one found by
> Pepp?."




From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Sep 20 20:37:21 2000
From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 13:37:21 -0700
Subject: Archaeology and history
Message-ID: <161227061770.23782.14699812289443707268.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the wake of the Rajaram "horse-seal" fiasco, some list members may be
interested in the following:

Arnold, Bettina. 1990. Past As Propaganda: Totalitarian Archaeology in Nazi
Germany. Antiquity 64, no. 244: 464-78.

Or, the shorter version for a non-scholarly audience:

Arnold, Bettina. 1992. The Past As Propaganda: How Hitler's Archaeologists
Distorted European Prehistory to Justify Racist and Territorial Goals.
Archaeology 45, no. 4 (Jul./Aug.): 30-37.

The latter article closes with this:

"The potential for political exploitation of the past seems to be greatest
in countries experiencing internal instability. Germany in the years
following World War I was a country searching for its own twentieth-century
identity. Prehistoric archaeology was one means to that end."

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 20 17:48:58 2000
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 13:48:58 -0400
Subject: Buddha, Places He went, and the Road on Which He Walked
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000092018262207@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061756.23782.4039702765920973822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

this link does not work:


>http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus3.htm
>



Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Yale University
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 20 13:51:47 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 13:51:47 +0000
Subject: Henrique Henriques (1520-1600) (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061745.23782.16461308225348578709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks, Dr. Karttunen, for the reply. I forward a portion of the reply
from an Indologist, may be useful. Another friend informed that
lot of info on Henriques is in the fine book, Tamil lexicography
by Gregory James.
Regards,
N. Ganesan
----
[snip]
Harvard have 3 more books by him:

  HENRIQUES HENRIQUE 1520
1  antirikku atikalar iyarriya flos sanctorum/ 1967 bks
2  doctrina cristaa/ 1578 bks
3  first european tamil grammar a critical edition/ 1982 bks
4  retrato del perfecto medico/ 1900
the last one may have some interesting medical herbs
(like the c. 1600CE Latin Hortus Malabaricus from Kerala)
or Ayurveda info.

The first one deals with Christian saints.
[snip]
-----------------------
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Sep 20 18:11:05 2000
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 14:11:05 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Buddha Walked ....
Message-ID: <161227061766.23782.13101807199277061186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>From: "A. Sharan" <asharan at engr.mun.ca>
>To: <jonathan.silk at yale.edu>
>Subject: Buddha Walked ....
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:40:53 -0230
>X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
>Importance: Normal
>Status:
>
>Dr. Silk:
>
>I tried to correct the address. I made another mistake. If possible , could
>you pl post the correct address mentioned below:
>
>http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm
>
>At this address, one has to look at Fig. 4
>
>
>They allow two postings per day. I have exhausted my quota.
>
>Thanks.
>Anand M. Sharan



Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Yale University
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Wed Sep 20 20:56:37 2000
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 16:56:37 -0400
Subject: [d-l] "Buddha" before the Pali Canon? (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061772.23782.1664271050138030727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 03:30:05 -0500
From: Sean Whittle <ratthapala at dhammanet.net>
Reply-To: dhamma-list at egroups.com
To: dhamma-list at egroups.com
Subject: [d-l] "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?

-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
eGroups eLerts
It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
http://click.egroups.com/1/9067/14/_/12885/_/969438476/
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

As someone who has studied the Pali, and with the creation of my lexicon
have had to investigate Pali words in other languages such as Sanskrit,
Tamil, the language of the Pakistan Asokan edicts, Greek, and Latin, I have
found that as yet it is very hard to come to any answer on the Buddha's
language.  What can be said is that the Pali can certainly be regarded as a
descendent from that language.  This is a matter of 400 years and languages
evolve and certainly better methods develop(such as writing and
standardization of the dialect).  I have seen theories that Pali is the
lingua franca of Magadhi, also that it came from Ujjain in Madhya Pradesh,
that it came from Andhra Pradesh in SE India, and that it came from the
Western Bengal area.  Pretty inconclusive.  With this is mind, until we
discover any real hard evidence on that actual language(which probably is
not very far from Pali), we can only go on the content of the text.  There I
firmly believe that the early discourses have been preserved through the
oral tradition and represent the Buddha's actual words.

Sean


Visit Sadhu! The Theravada Buddhism Web Directory http://quantrum.com.my/sadhu/
To unsubscribe: dhamma-list-unsubscribe at egroups.com




From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Wed Sep 20 15:46:42 2000
From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 17:46:42 +0200
Subject: Temporary address
Message-ID: <161227061751.23782.5602169060176861133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To whom it may concern:
for the next 5 months (till mid-February) my e-mail address will be:
iiasguest10 at rullet.leidenuniv.nl
Best regards,
                                            Yaroslav Vassilkov




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Sep 20 16:52:05 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 17:52:05 +0100
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061753.23782.262942968014671519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does the following help qualify Buddha as more "historical" than Lao Tzu ?
Does myth-building extend to creation of artifacts as well ?

-arun gupta

"The account of the division (the Mahaparinibbana-sutta) of his relics gives
us a detailed view of the extent of the Buddhist community, the number of
adherents in particular places, and a synopsis of his teachings."

In 1898, Pepp? excavated an old stupa at Piprahwa and found an urn with an
inscription from the time of King Asoka or before which stated that the
contents were the remains of the Buddha. In 1958 another urn was discovered
in Vaisali and, though without an inscription, has been identified as
containing his remains on the basis of its similarity to the one found by
Pepp?."




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Wed Sep 20 17:26:20 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 18:26:20 +0100
Subject: Buddha, Places He went, and the Road on Which He Walked
Message-ID: <161227061755.23782.7201534908344025234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following web sites show the places he went with actual photographs of
those places now

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/buddhism.html

and in the next one, one can see the map - the road on which he walked .

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus3.htm


For others interested in the dialacts spoken in and around Magadh are :

Magadhi - South of the Ganges river but east of Sone river in Bihar

Vaishali, Kashi , Gorakhpur ( Kushinagar ) - Close to Bhojpuri -

Buddha was born in Lumbini, close to Gorakhpur . His palace was farther
from Gorakhpur .

Thanks.
Anand M. Sharan
Anand M. Sharan




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Wed Sep 20 17:58:05 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 18:58:05 +0100
Subject: A Correction of Web site -Buddha, Places He went,              and the Road on Which He Walked
Message-ID: <161227061761.23782.5964577097810694855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:26:20 +0100, Anand M. Sharan <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA>
wrote:

>The following web sites show the places he went with actual photographs of
>those places now
>
>http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/buddhism.html
>
>and in the next one, one can see the map - the road on which he walked .
>
>http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus3.htm
>
>
>For others interested in the dialacts spoken in and around Magadh are :
>
>Magadhi - South of the Ganges river but east of Sone river in Bihar
>
>Vaishali, Kashi , Gorakhpur ( Kushinagar ) - Close to Bhojpuri -
>
>Buddha was born in Lumbini, close to Gorakhpur . His palace was farther
>from Gorakhpur .
>
>Thanks.
>Anand M. Sharan
>Anand M. Sharan

I am sorry about the error in typing the long address:

The correct address is

http:/www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm

SEE FIGURE 4

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From Antoine.Leca at RENAULT.FR  Wed Sep 20 18:05:36 2000
From: Antoine.Leca at RENAULT.FR (Antoine Leca)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 20:05:36 +0200
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061764.23782.9107843764756975856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran wrote:
>
> Forget Jesus or the Buddha who lived thousands of years back and nothing
> conclusive can be proved - give us an example in the last, say, 500
> years - where a movement has gained as much prominence like Buddhism
> without a founder - a leader who started the movement.

Certainly my examples cannot be compared in importance with Buddhism
(what can in the last 500 years?) However, I believe that while strong
unique leadership is a way to "build" powerful movements, this is not
the only one.

Think about French Revolution at the end of XVIIIth c. C.E.
Certainly there are leaders that can be identified. But saying this
is the job of only _one_ (which one?) is very hard to establish.

More tangential, I am also thinking in the atom revolution during
the first half of the century that is going to end. I believe this
"movement" has changed the way a big number of people are living
these days. Certainly, people like Niels Bohr or A. Einstein or
F.D. Roosevelt, and others I just do not dare enumerating have been
instrumental. However, saying this is the result of the work of one
of them is not a common idea.

A bit earlier in time, and this goes beyond your 500 years limit,
the Christian crusades at the end of the Middle Ages, also cannot
be attribuated to only one leader (even if the pope, Urban III IIRC,
certainly did have a important role; but it had not been sufficient).


Anyway, all of this have little to do with Indology, even at large.
So I do not anticipate to answer any follow-up.


Antoine




From dbgray62 at HOME.COM  Thu Sep 21 02:18:11 2000
From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 00 22:18:11 -0400
Subject: J. N. Mohanty
Message-ID: <161227061773.23782.1895321034191549527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does anyone have contact information (email address, etc.) for J.N.
Mohanty, author of Essays on Indian Philosophy: Traditional and Modern
(Oxford, U.P., Delhi, 1993)?

Thanks,
David Gray




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Sep 21 14:23:09 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 10:23:09 -0400
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061779.23782.440392576899605148.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anand Sharan said,

"What language Buddha spoke while giving his sermons, has certainly
came as
a surprise to me. He wandered for twelve years in Magadh .... His
sermons were for common masses which spoke Magadhi (Magahi ) then, and
now . I have mentioned in one of the postings earlier, various
dialacts spoken in that area. No one knows Pali there . Ashoka's
edicts are also in Magadhi ."

I think we should guard against the assumption that the "languages"
or "dialects" were necessarily so distinct that the Buddha could not
preach in his own language, whatever that may have been, and be
understood by audiences that spoke another one.

Also he may have used interpreters.

Some foreigners have suspected that S.Asians are voluble in part to
make themselves understood over linguistic boundaries, so that
repetition will turn partial comprehension into completer
comprehension.

I think there would be much material giving parallels in the lives of
medieval and early modern Christian saints.  One reads much about
their preaching in various countries away from their birthplace and
about their theological studies but little about their learning the
current vernaculars.  (One does learn about systematic language study
in the period of the post-da Gama missions.) Now obviously if one was
born in Italy or Ireland or Germany one would have to learn say
Hungarian to preach to Hungarians without an interpreter.  But would
an Italian sit down and study Portuguese or vice versa, or a Dutchman
German and v.v.  in 1400 or just "pick it up?"   Would they as it were
preach in their native language bending it in the direction of the
local one? Or did they just use interpreters so routinely it
frequently went without saying in the texts?  Certainly it is possible
for a preacher to have a major effect on his listeners while using an
interpreter, e.g. Billy Graham in our own day. To look into the
original hagiographic sources with this in mind to find more material
would be a useful task.

Allen Thrasher




Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 21 17:28:30 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 10:28:30 -0700
Subject: Walking Buddha
Message-ID: <161227061790.23782.9477542817101478331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Are there any walking buddhas who are depicted over the lotus?
 In painting or bronze. Thailand??

 Nanda Chandran on Sep. 19,
 >Ofcourse, Gautama on being born - standing up and walking eight steps
 >and declaring himself to be the savior of the world and VishvAmitra
 >teaching him the GAyathri mantram might be pure fantasy.
 I see Ramayana in that posting, is this "walking buddha" myth
 from R.? Which chapter?

 In "Thirukkural and Buddhism" thread, A. Aklujkar wrote:
 <Why is walking taken as meaning sitting/seating?  Is there any account of
 the Buddha walking on lotuses?>. Thiruvalluvar says God is one who
 walked on (lotus) flowers - "malar micai Ekin2An2", the poet made
 his first chapter on God general. So general, For example, "a.ra aa_li"
 could refer to the Buddhist dharma wheel, "tirukkuRaL and Buddhism"
 (8-nov-97):
http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9711&L=indology&P=R3662

 Hence: Any Buddha in art who are depicted walking
 over flowers? In Thailand or India or elsewhere.

 Thanks,
 SM



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From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Thu Sep 21 14:42:00 2000
From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 10:42:00 -0400
Subject: Word Help?
Message-ID: <161227061781.23782.4977255294330678618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can someone help me with this?  A poet-friend of mine would like to know the Sanskrit for "eater of the gods" or "god-eater."  I have tried to help him in my amateurish way, but I thought I had better ask the experts.

Dr. George Cronk
Philosophy & Religion
Bergen Community College (NJ)
www.bergen.cc.nj.us/faculty/gcronk/Dept1.html




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Thu Sep 21 15:55:51 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 11:55:51 -0400
Subject: Word Help?
Message-ID: <161227061784.23782.393448622643943283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'
'>'Can someone help me with this?  A poet-friend of mine would like to know =
'>'the Sanskrit for "eater of the gods" or "god-eater."  I have tried to =
'>'help him in my amateurish way, but I thought I had better ask the =
'>'experts.

    This is not what you had asked, but I thought it might be of interest.
    In Tamil, an equally ancient language,
    'god-eater' would be 'iRaiyuNNi' and interestingly, the same word
    also can mean other things!

    C.R.Selvakumar

'>'
'>'Dr. George Cronk
'>'Philosophy & Religion
'>'Bergen Community College (NJ)
'>'www.bergen.cc.nj.us/faculty/gcronk/Dept1.html
'>'




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 21 19:00:13 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 12:00:13 -0700
Subject: Walking Buddha
Message-ID: <161227061796.23782.11370268295316193635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>         Oftentimes, the tirukkuRaL is misinterpreted. The expression
>         'malamicai Ekinaan' refers to 'reaching an exalted state'
>         and it does not mean 'walking on top of flower(/lotus)'.
>         Almost all gods are depicted either sitting or standing on
>         flowers.

  True, gods are sculpted as sitting and standing or sleeping.
  The walking style is rare, I know only of walking buddha statues
  from Sukhotai period Thailand, if we don't take trivikrama avatara
  as walking which Alvars say as "naDantAn2".


>         In Tamil 'malar' or simply 'poo' means the
>         'final stage' (beyond that one crosses and reaches to God's feet).
>         It is a standard spiritual expression in Tamil.

 This seems to refer to a devotee. OTOH, the kuRaL clearly refers
 to the God's attribute as One who walked on the flower.

 Thanks and kind regards,
 SM



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From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 21 19:17:32 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 12:17:32 -0700
Subject: Word Help?
Message-ID: <161227061797.23782.8612466552464983548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

DevASI, for instance. Or surakhAdaka. Or even
AdityabhoktA. In fact, there are many more words.

Dr Marina Orelskaya
c/o Department of Sanskrit
and Prakrit Languages
University of Pune
Pune 411007
India



--- george9252 <george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM> wrote:
> Can someone help me with this?  A poet-friend of
> mine would like to know the Sanskrit for "eater of
> the gods" or "god-eater."  I have tried to help him
> in my amateurish way, but I thought I had better ask
> the experts.
>
> Dr. George Cronk
> Philosophy & Religion
> Bergen Community College (NJ)
> www.bergen.cc.nj.us/faculty/gcronk/Dept1.html


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Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Sep 21 17:24:49 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 13:24:49 -0400
Subject: Electronic Vedic Concordance
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10009191147430.12481-100000@seawolf.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227061788.23782.2042459384544297514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Everyone,
        I have been trying to use the electronic version of the Vedic
Concordance on my Macintosh Powerbook 1400c without success.  Each time
Nisus tries to read the main Concordance file, I get the message "not
enough memory".  My machine has 64 MB ram.  Does anyone know how much
memory one needs to be able to read the Concordance files?  Best,
                                                Madhav Deshpande




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Thu Sep 21 12:29:31 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 13:29:31 +0100
Subject: [d-l] "Buddha" before the Pali Canon? (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061775.23782.10458109027245569568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:56:37 -0400, Phillip Ernest
<phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA> wrote:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 03:30:05 -0500
>From: Sean Whittle <ratthapala at dhammanet.net>
>Reply-To: dhamma-list at egroups.com
>To: dhamma-list at egroups.com
>Subject: [d-l] "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
>
>-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
>eGroups eLerts
>It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/9067/14/_/12885/_/969438476/
>---------------------------------------------------------------------_->
>
>As someone who has studied the Pali, and with the creation of my lexicon
>have had to investigate Pali words in other languages such as Sanskrit,
>Tamil, the language of the Pakistan Asokan edicts, Greek, and Latin, I have
>found that as yet it is very hard to come to any answer on the Buddha's
>language.  What can be said is that the Pali can certainly be regarded as a
>descendent from that language.  This is a matter of 400 years and languages
>evolve and certainly better methods develop(such as writing and
>standardization of the dialect).  I have seen theories that Pali is the
>lingua franca of Magadhi, also that it came from Ujjain in Madhya Pradesh,
>that it came from Andhra Pradesh in SE India, and that it came from the
>Western Bengal area.  Pretty inconclusive.  With this is mind, until we
>discover any real hard evidence on that actual language(which probably is
>not very far from Pali), we can only go on the content of the text.  There
I
>firmly believe that the early discourses have been preserved through the
>oral tradition and represent the Buddha's actual words.
>
>Sean
>
>
>Visit Sadhu! The Theravada Buddhism Web Directory
http://quantrum.com.my/sadhu/
>To unsubscribe: dhamma-list-unsubscribe at egroups.com

What language Buddha spoke while giving his sermons, has certainly came as
a surprise to me. He wandered for twelve years in Magadh . It is well known
that his movement and ideas were against the established religion (
Hinduism ) at that time. As a matter of fact, he went to the Jain, as well
as Hindu Centers ( Gaya ) to know more about the truth which he was
searching for . His sermons were for common masses which spoke Magadhi (
Magahi ) then, and now . I have mentioned in one of the postings earlier,
various dialacts spoken in that area. No one knows Pali there . Ashoka's
edicts are also in Magadhi .
At Lumbini, I have seen Ashoka's message in the Mayadevi ( Bus\ddha's
mother ) written in Brahmi script . That would give clue as to what was the
language spoken in that area. At Kapilvastu ( his palace ) , I could only
see the remains of the palace but no museum etc . I was surprised that it
had not been given sufficient importance .

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 21 21:05:05 2000
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 14:05:05 -0700
Subject: Archaeology and history
Message-ID: <161227061803.23782.17755784596182809919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<In the wake of the Rajaram "horse-seal" fiasco, some list members may be
interested in the following:

Arnold, Bettina. 1990. Past As Propaganda: Totalitarian Archaeology in Nazi
Germany. Antiquity 64, no. 244: 464-78.

Or, the shorter version for a non-scholarly audience:

Arnold, Bettina. 1992. The Past As Propaganda: How Hitler's Archaeologists
Distorted European Prehistory to Justify Racist and Territorial Goals.
Archaeology 45, no. 4 (Jul./Aug.): 30-37.

The latter article closes with this:

"The potential for political exploitation of the past seems to be greatest
in countries experiencing internal instability. Germany in the years
following World War I was a country searching for its own twentieth-century
identity. Prehistoric archaeology was one means to that end."

Best,

Luis Gonzalez-Reimann
University of California, Berkeley>>

Sanskrit philology too was useful; a) Leon Poliakov,
The Aryan myth ('74) b) Maurice Olender, The languages
of Paradise: Race, religin and philology in the
nineteenth century ('92).

[Begin Quote]
  Yet another important aspect for the understanding of any European
  scholar's perspective on ancient Indian culture was the growth
  of antisemitism throughout Europe. Antisemitism also had a philological
  dimension (see especially POLIAKOV 1974; OLENDER 1992). During the
  nineteenth century, there was considerable concern over what language
  may have been spoken in the Biblical "paradise". Hebrew was the
  original language of the Bible. It was the oldest known language
  until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, and its decipherment,
  unlocked even more ancient languages. However, Hebrew was also the
  language of the Jews and decidedly distant from any past or then
  present European language. Biblical "history" was not to be
  challenged. However, human language at the time of creation was open
  to question. In the context of antisemitism, a scholarly proposition
  that "Adam and Eve" spoke Hebrew made European scholars very
  uncomfortable. JONES's hypothesis of a relationship linking Sanskrit
  with Latin and Greek combined to yield philological chronologies
  and a proposed reconstruction of a proto-Indo-Aryan/European
  language. Efforts to define an Indo-European homeland somewhere
  between India and eastern Europe provided many European scholars
  with an alternative to Hebrew as the language of "paradise".
  If the language of paradise was not Sanskrit, then perhaps it was
  proto-Indo-Aryan/European. Hebrew became defined as just the
  language of Biblical record
  [End Quote]

  From Jim Shaffer & Diane Lichtenstein, Migration, Philology and South
  Asian archaeology, '99.

  Sincerely,
  Prasad


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From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Thu Sep 21 18:44:50 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 14:44:50 -0400
Subject: Walking Buddha
Message-ID: <161227061792.23782.12039266919563708918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'
'>' Are there any walking buddhas who are depicted over the lotus?
'>' In painting or bronze. Thailand??
'>'
'>' Nanda Chandran on Sep. 19,
'>' >Ofcourse, Gautama on being born - standing up and walking eight steps
'>' >and declaring himself to be the savior of the world and VishvAmitra
'>' >teaching him the GAyathri mantram might be pure fantasy.
'>' I see Ramayana in that posting, is this "walking buddha" myth
'>' from R.? Which chapter?
'>'
'>' In "Thirukkural and Buddhism" thread, A. Aklujkar wrote:
'>' <Why is walking taken as meaning sitting/seating?  Is there any account of
'>' the Buddha walking on lotuses?>. Thiruvalluvar says God is one who
'>' walked on (lotus) flowers - "malar micai Ekin2An2", the poet made
'>' his first chapter on God general. So general, For example, "a.ra aa_li"
'>' could refer to the Buddhist dharma wheel, "tirukkuRaL and Buddhism"
'>' (8-nov-97):
'>'http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9711&L=indology&P=R3662

        Oftentimes, the tirukkuRaL is misinterpreted. The expression
        'malamicai Ekinaan' refers to 'reaching an exalted state'
        and it does not mean 'walking on top of flower(/lotus)'.
        Almost all gods are depicted either sitting or standing on
        flowers. In Tamil 'malar' or simply 'poo' means the
        'final stage' (beyond that one crosses and reaches to God's feet).
        It is a standard spiritual expression in Tamil.

        C.R.Selvakumar
'>'
'>' Hence: Any Buddha in art who are depicted walking
'>' over flowers? In Thailand or India or elsewhere.
'>'
'>' Thanks,
'>' SM




From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Sep 21 14:07:01 2000
From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 15:07:01 +0100
Subject: Concordance
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10009211321360.11151-100000@tempest.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227061793.23782.14727599556362303711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello Everyone,
Is there a concordance to the Mahabharata?
Thanks,
John Grimes




From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Thu Sep 21 19:58:29 2000
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 15:58:29 -0400
Subject: [d-l] "Buddha" before the Pali Canon? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000092113293170@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061800.23782.8031722842403636190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

That is so interesting, thank you.

Pip




From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Sep 21 14:08:11 2000
From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 16:08:11 +0200
Subject: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?
Message-ID: <161227061777.23782.2406615460892789493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Antoine Leca" <Antoine.Leca at RENAULT.FR>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: "Buddha" before the Pali Canon?


> Certainly my examples cannot be compared in importance with Buddhism
> (what can in the last 500 years?) However, I believe that while strong
> unique leadership is a way to "build" powerful movements, this is not
> the only one.
>
> Think about French Revolution at the end of XVIIIth c. C.E.
> Certainly there are leaders that can be identified. But saying this
> is the job of only _one_ (which one?) is very hard to establish.

> the Christian crusades at the end of the Middle Ages, also cannot
> be attribuated to only one leader ...

As it seems to me, there is great difference between foundation of a
soteriological religion - and  establishing a political party or organizing
a revolution. Great political events are predetermined by many social,
economical and ideological factors, - while the "seed" out of which the
"tree" of any soteriological religion grows is constituted by the founder's
mystical, psychological experience. Human contacts with the Sacred or
Supernatural have their own history of development (and of decline!) but in
this history a founder, as a mystically gifted individual, plays an
exceptional role.


Yaroslav Vassilkov




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Thu Sep 21 14:56:25 2000
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (kellneb5)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 16:56:25 +0200
Subject: publication (?) by Annette Meuthrath
Message-ID: <161227061782.23782.3472222054405145346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  In her 1996 publication "Untersuchungen zur Kompositionsgeschichte
  der NyAyasUtras", Annette Meuthrath refers to her MA-thesis "Die
  NAgArjuna zugeschriebene VigrahavyAvartanI und die NyAyasUtras.
  Eine Untersuchung des Verhaeltnisses beider Texte zueinander"
  (Muenster, 1990) as "in the press". Does anyone know whether this
  thesis was ever published?

--
Best regards,

Birgit Kellner
Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
Vienna University




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Sep 21 16:06:28 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 17:06:28 +0100
Subject: Evidence for the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061786.23782.2629061133102907577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have been asked to forward this information, and I do for general
information, but without subscribing to the opinions it promotes.

The home page of this organization contains such resonant metaphors as

 "Today, our dear Mother, Maa Bharat, is fighting for survival. Countless
 separatist strikes from all sides threaten to tear Her apart limb from
 limb. The vile, insidious disease of corruption, spread by self-serving
 politicians is spreading its venomous juices slowly through Her body."

which may serve to give an sense of the orientation of this material.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 07:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Nation of Hindutva <hindu-rashtra at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: hindu-rashtra at geocities.com
To: Dominic Wujastyk <ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Evidence for the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir

Dear sir,

Please forward the following message to your List.

The archaeological, historical and legal evidence presented by Vishva
Hindu Parishad (VHP) to the Government of India (on December 23, 1990)
in support of their claim that the Babri Masjid was constructed after
demolishing a Hindu temple at that site has been reproduced in toto at
the following website.

http://www.geocities.com/hindu-rashtra/ramjanmabhoomi

The website also contains the entire text of the VHP's rejoinder
(submitted to the Government of India on January 6, 1991) to the
documents provided by the All India Babri Masjid Action Committee
(AIBMAC).

The website will eventually also contain the following:

1. Evidence offered by AIBMAC in support of their position.
2. Rejoinder of "eminent" historians to the VHP documents.
3. Details of the 200 artifacts of the ancient temple unearthed below
the structure of the demolished mosque on December 6, 1992.
4. Legal opinions on the matter.
5. Additional historical material of relevance like the Kapad Dwar map
collection of the Maharaja of Jaipur.
6. Opinions of renowned archaeologists and historians (like B B Lal,
Iravatham Mahadevan etc.)
7. A detailed bibliography.

Please stay tuned. Any suggestions and corrections are most welcome.

Sincerely,

The 'Nation of Hindutva' Project

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From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Thu Sep 21 20:49:56 2000
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 00 22:49:56 +0200
Subject: publication (?) by Annette Meuthrath
In-Reply-To: <148218838.20000921165625@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227061801.23782.12043120758200606391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, kellneb5 wrote:

>   In her 1996 publication "Untersuchungen zur Kompositionsgeschichte
>   der NyAyasUtras", Annette Meuthrath refers to her MA-thesis "Die
>   NAgArjuna zugeschriebene VigrahavyAvartanI und die NyAyasUtras.
>   Eine Untersuchung des Verhaeltnisses beider Texte zueinander"
>   (Muenster, 1990) as "in the press". Does anyone know whether this
>   thesis was ever published?

Ja, die Untersuchung ist ver?ffentlicht worden. Wenn ich mich recht
entsinne im Inge Wezler Verlag, Reinbek. Ich kann bei Bedarf in der
Institutsbibliothek die genauen Angaben nachliefern.

Peter Wyzlic
Indologisches Seminar
Bonn




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Thu Sep 21 23:57:15 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 00:57:15 +0100
Subject: Walking Buddha
Message-ID: <161227061806.23782.7422096943797280221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan <smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Are there any walking buddhas who are depicted over the lotus?
> In painting or bronze. Thailand??

I have seen drawings of Buddha walking on lotus. I might be able
to find one on the web. Some of you may remember the scene in
Little Buddha where Buddha walks on lotus flowers.

I know a painting on the web showing a Jina walking on lotuses.
It is referred to often in Jainism, it occus in the Bhaktamara-
Stotra  for example.

> In "Thirukkural and Buddhism" thread, A. Aklujkar wrote:
> So general, For example, "a.ra aa_li"
> could refer to the Buddhist dharma wheel, "tirukkuRaL and Buddhism"
> (8-nov-97):
> http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9711&L=indology&P=R3662

It was once common for Jains to worship the dharma-chakra and to
place it at the feet of the Jina. It is occasionally still found
in some Jain temples as a yantra.

Thirukkural could not have been composed by a Buddhist because it
opposes not only killing of animals, but also consumption of
meat.

Yashwant




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Sep 22 00:19:30 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 01:19:30 +0100
Subject: Walking Buddha
Message-ID: <161227061807.23782.16787358910052901676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here are some images of Buddha walking on lotus flowers.

http://www.watpa.iirt.net/buddha/buddha01_10.html
(Thai)

http://www.serve.com/cmtan/LifeBuddha/buddha.htm
(Simhal)

Here is a painting of Jina walking on lotus:
http://www.si.umich.edu/Art_History/UMMA/1975/1975_2.174.jpg

and another one to illustrate Bhaktamara-stotra:
http://www.jainworld.com/bhs/bhs36.htm

Yashwant




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 22 11:18:14 2000
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 04:18:14 -0700
Subject: Indus Script Deciphered!
Message-ID: <161227061821.23782.8060773946431493723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

One more decipherment claim.  Here's the url:

http://www.the-hindu.com/stories/14222183.htm

According to the newsitem, the Archaeological Survey
of India has, however, refused to authenticate this
claim, arguing that the research study needed to be
verified by a group of experts.

In this context, the comments of the Director
(Excavations) of the ASI, Mr RS Bisht are interesting.


QUOTE

Refusing to comment on the latest claim on the Indus
script, Mr. Bisht said a large number of people have
made similar claims but none have been accurate.

UNQUOTE

Wonder if Mr Bisht was including NS Rajaram et al in
his 'large number of people'.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS








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From giravani at JUNO.COM  Fri Sep 22 04:13:37 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 05:13:37 +0100
Subject: A steatite relief plate
Message-ID: <161227061813.23782.6079342730827477333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On the page 188 of the Geographical Dictionary of the Ancient and Medieval
India (Author: Nundo Lal Dey, 1971, there is reference to the recent
discovery of a steatite relief showing in an artistic way the celebrated
story of Usinara(the ancient king of Zivi or Zibi)offering flesh of his
body to save the life of a dove. It is said in the book that this steatite
plate is now in the British Museum. Does any body has the knowledge of the
date of this object? N. R. Joshi.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 22 13:19:19 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 06:19:19 -0700
Subject: A steatite relief plate
Message-ID: <161227061824.23782.9545139130266323086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 The 1971 edition is a reprint. Early Buddhist sources and Tamil sangam texts
 tell the story of Zibi saving the dove.

--- "Narayan R. Joshi" <giravani at JUNO.COM> wrote:
> On the page 188 of the Geographical Dictionary of the Ancient and Medieval
> India (Author: Nundo Lal Dey, 1971, there is reference to the recent
> discovery of a steatite relief showing in an artistic way the celebrated
> story of Usinara(the ancient king of Zivi or Zibi)offering flesh of his
> body to save the life of a dove. It is said in the book that this steatite
> plate is now in the British Museum. Does any body has the knowledge of the
> date of this object? N. R. Joshi.


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From george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE  Fri Sep 22 05:42:49 2000
From: george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (George Baumann)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 07:42:49 +0200
Subject: publication (?) by Annette Meuthrath
In-Reply-To: <148218838.20000921165625@univie.ac.at>
Message-ID: <161227061815.23782.10643566548926312637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ms Kellner,

The thesis by Annette Meuthrath has been published 1996 in the Oros
Verl., Muenster and Echter Verl., Altenberge. The ISBN is
3-89375-120-3 or 3-429-01760-2. The series is:
Religionswissenschaftliche Studien No. 36.
I hope this data is of use to you. The call number of the book in
Tuebingen is: 36 A 6532.

Best regards,

George Baumann


> Date:          Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:56:25 +0200
> Reply-to:      Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> From:          kellneb5 <birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT>
> Subject:       publication (?) by Annette Meuthrath
> To:            INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK

>   In her 1996 publication "Untersuchungen zur Kompositionsgeschichte
>   der NyAyasUtras", Annette Meuthrath refers to her MA-thesis "Die
>   NAgArjuna zugeschriebene VigrahavyAvartanI und die NyAyasUtras.
>   Eine Untersuchung des Verhaeltnisses beider Texte zueinander"
>   (Muenster, 1990) as "in the press". Does anyone know whether this
>   thesis was ever published?
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Birgit Kellner
> Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies
> Vienna University
>
___________________________________________________________

Dr. G. Baumann
Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen
Wilhelmstr. 32
D-72016 Tuebingen
Tel.:  +7071-2972587
Fax:   +7071-293123
___________________________________________________________




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Fri Sep 22 09:37:17 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 10:37:17 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061817.23782.15213702618050089550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In my last posting, I had indicated the drying up of the Saraswati river
around 1700 BCE, and that the Mahabharata War took place before that based
on the description in Mahabharata, about Balram's pilgrimage along the
Saraswati river. I had also mentioned about Fitzgerald's work on the use of
iron during the War. I had mentioned other instances where the use of iron
is mentioned.
I have read another source about dating the Mahabharata based on the
planetary configuration. It gives the date of starting of the War on Nov.
22, 3067 BCE ( I will try to post the details on a web site shortly -
within a few days ) . Therefore, considering any of these sources- drying
up of the Saraswati river,  and the planetary configuarations, one can say
that the Iron Age in India was far older than previously believed .

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Fri Sep 22 15:37:44 2000
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 11:37:44 -0400
Subject: publication (?) by Annette Meuthrath
In-Reply-To: <200009220542.HAA11492@mx01.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <161227061819.23782.5513898265347642175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Friday, September 22, 2000, 1:42:49 AM, George Baumann wrote:

GB> Dear Ms Kellner,

GB> The thesis by Annette Meuthrath has been published 1996 in the Oros
GB> Verl., Muenster and Echter Verl., Altenberge. The ISBN is
GB> 3-89375-120-3 or 3-429-01760-2. The series is:
GB> Religionswissenschaftliche Studien No. 36.
GB> I hope this data is of use to you. The call number of the book in
GB> Tuebingen is: 36 A 6532.

GB> Best regards,

GB> George Baumann

>>   In her 1996 publication "Untersuchungen zur Kompositionsgeschichte
>>   der NyAyasUtras", Annette Meuthrath refers to her MA-thesis "Die
>>   NAgArjuna zugeschriebene VigrahavyAvartanI und die NyAyasUtras.
>>   Eine Untersuchung des Verhaeltnisses beider Texte zueinander"
>>   (Muenster, 1990) as "in the press". Does anyone know whether this
>>   thesis was ever published?
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Birgit Kellner

To avoid misunderstandings - the publication mentioned by George
Baumann is Meuthrath's PhD-thesis on the composition of the
NyAyasUtras. The publication I was looking for is however that of her
MA-thesis. As Peter Wyzlic has now kindly informed me, this was published in
1999 in Reinbek : Wezler, 1999, as vol.3 of the series "Philosophica Indica : Einsichten,
Ansichten.

--
Best regards,
Birgit Kellner




From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Fri Sep 22 00:40:44 2000
From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 11:40:44 +1100
Subject: Zaanti
In-Reply-To: <012601c01cb1$46e0ca60$ecc94ed8@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <161227061809.23782.4429372783750055071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Jim,


I have just received the copy of the Zaanti.  It is a wonderful book and a
work of great scholarship, qualities that are sometime mutually exclusive.

I have let my graduate student working on the Aapaddharmaparvan look at it
for a week and then I will look at it.

I will make comments on it, but do you want me to make suggestions which
could result in alterations?   Or is this the final text?

This volume will make a major advance in Indian Studies in a whole range of
areas, not just in epic studies.

Congratulations!  Its terrific!  Can I keep this copy.

Cheers,


Greg




From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU  Fri Sep 22 02:37:50 2000
From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 13:37:50 +1100
Subject: Zaanti
In-Reply-To: <l03020900b5f05a1f0202@[131.172.156.28]>
Message-ID: <161227061811.23782.14047049828433710589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Apologies for a private message that was sent to the list instead of the
intended recipient.


Greg Bailey




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Fri Sep 22 14:45:46 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 15:45:46 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061828.23782.1906384920339096353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:05:27 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar <rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN>
wrote:

>In the literature, one can find arguments that assign a date to the Bharata
>battle ranging in round numbers from  3000BC to 1000BC..It is easier to
date
>the beginning of the iron age than to date the Bharata battle. It would be
>better to fix the beginning of the iron age from independent sources and
>then use this information to constrain the Bharata battle
chronology ,rather
>than the  other way round.
>rajesh kochhar
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Prof Rajesh Kochhar
>Director
>National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
>Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
>ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
>hm + 91 11 576 0281
>altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
>web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anand M. Sharan <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 3:12 PM
>Subject: Re: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
>
>
>>In my last posting, I had indicated the drying up of the Saraswati river
>>around 1700 BCE, and that the Mahabharata War took place before that based
>>on the description in Mahabharata, about Balram's pilgrimage along the
>>Saraswati river. I had also mentioned about Fitzgerald's work on the use
of
>>iron during the War. I had mentioned other instances where the use of iron
>>is mentioned.
>>I have read another source about dating the Mahabharata based on the
>>planetary configuration. It gives the date of starting of the War on Nov.
>>22, 3067 BCE ( I will try to post the details on a web site shortly -
>>within a few days ) . Therefore, considering any of these sources- drying
>>up of the Saraswati river,  and the planetary configuarations, one can say
>>that the Iron Age in India was far older than previously believed .
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Anand M. Sharan

There is a reason for approaching the date of Mahabharata this way . The
planetary motions are determinate including those of the orientation of the
earth's rotational axis, which has a cycle of approximately 26, 000 years .
I am not sure, if the people who have made the Panchang have included this
motion . If they have not ( their model is based on observations, which may
not be as accurate ), then the date will be off.  Still , it would be
better than searching for the needle ( remains of the iron in Mahabharat)
in the haystack . If Lord Ganesh, and Vyasjee recorded things accurately (
the descriptions ) , it would be possible to estimate the date of the
Mahabharat War, and hence, the Iron Age in India. All things have to
match .  I am looking for an appropriate software to match the
description . If any one knows about such a software, pl provide the
details by posting it.

The web site where I have posted the details of the present Estimation is
mentioned below:

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/mahabharat/historicityofmahabharat.htm

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Fri Sep 22 15:39:05 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 16:39:05 +0100
Subject: Question regarding words
Message-ID: <161227061830.23782.14341228644328040103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Supposedly, the English word "calculate" comes from the Latin calculus, a
small stone used in reckoning.

The Hindu word for essay, "nibandh", supposedly comes from the method of
tying the loose leaves of a manuscript.

Are there any words in the classical languages of India which by their
etymology might give clues to the material culture involved in literary
composition, arithmetic, etc., in ancient India ?

Thank you,
-arun gupta




From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Sep 22 12:53:53 2000
From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 18:23:53 +0530
Subject: Evidence for the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227061822.23782.18142076782470111707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Every time I tried to access the website, I got the message "Debug" It seems
the documents there are full of communal viruses.
DNJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 9:36 PM
Subject: Evidence for the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir (fwd)


> I have been asked to forward this information, and I do for general
> information, but without subscribing to the opinions it promotes.
>
> The home page of this organization contains such resonant metaphors as
>
>  "Today, our dear Mother, Maa Bharat, is fighting for survival. Countless
>  separatist strikes from all sides threaten to tear Her apart limb from
>  limb. The vile, insidious disease of corruption, spread by self-serving
>  politicians is spreading its venomous juices slowly through Her body."
>
> which may serve to give an sense of the orientation of this material.
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 07:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
> From: The Nation of Hindutva <hindu-rashtra at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: hindu-rashtra at geocities.com
> To: Dominic Wujastyk <ucgadkw at ucl.ac.uk>
> Subject: Evidence for the Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir
>
> Dear sir,
>
> Please forward the following message to your List.
>
> The archaeological, historical and legal evidence presented by Vishva
> Hindu Parishad (VHP) to the Government of India (on December 23, 1990)
> in support of their claim that the Babri Masjid was constructed after
> demolishing a Hindu temple at that site has been reproduced in toto at
> the following website.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hindu-rashtra/ramjanmabhoomi
>
> The website also contains the entire text of the VHP's rejoinder
> (submitted to the Government of India on January 6, 1991) to the
> documents provided by the All India Babri Masjid Action Committee
> (AIBMAC).
>
> The website will eventually also contain the following:
>
> 1. Evidence offered by AIBMAC in support of their position.
> 2. Rejoinder of "eminent" historians to the VHP documents.
> 3. Details of the 200 artifacts of the ancient temple unearthed below
> the structure of the demolished mosque on December 6, 1992.
> 4. Legal opinions on the matter.
> 5. Additional historical material of relevance like the Kapad Dwar map
> collection of the Maharaja of Jaipur.
> 6. Opinions of renowned archaeologists and historians (like B B Lal,
> Iravatham Mahadevan etc.)
> 7. A detailed bibliography.
>
> Please stay tuned. Any suggestions and corrections are most welcome.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> The 'Nation of Hindutva' Project
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com/
>




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Fri Sep 22 13:35:27 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 00 19:05:27 +0530
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061826.23782.7062300534897248197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the literature, one can find arguments that assign a date to the Bharata
battle ranging in round numbers from  3000BC to 1000BC..It is easier to date
the beginning of the iron age than to date the Bharata battle. It would be
better to fix the beginning of the iron age from independent sources and
then use this information to constrain the Bharata battle chronology ,rather
than the  other way round.
rajesh kochhar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}
-----Original Message-----
From: Anand M. Sharan <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India


>In my last posting, I had indicated the drying up of the Saraswati river
>around 1700 BCE, and that the Mahabharata War took place before that based
>on the description in Mahabharata, about Balram's pilgrimage along the
>Saraswati river. I had also mentioned about Fitzgerald's work on the use of
>iron during the War. I had mentioned other instances where the use of iron
>is mentioned.
>I have read another source about dating the Mahabharata based on the
>planetary configuration. It gives the date of starting of the War on Nov.
>22, 3067 BCE ( I will try to post the details on a web site shortly -
>within a few days ) . Therefore, considering any of these sources- drying
>up of the Saraswati river,  and the planetary configuarations, one can say
>that the Iron Age in India was far older than previously believed .
>
>Thanks.
>
>Anand M. Sharan




From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Sep 23 03:31:23 2000
From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 00 09:01:23 +0530
Subject: looking for addresses
Message-ID: <161227061831.23782.7519041704579125983.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,
1.Could any one give me the email/other address of Ms. Swapna Dasgupta, Ph.DHiedelber)? A Japanese friend has asked me to find out her contact address.
1. I need to get in touch with Harry Falk. Does any one have his email address?
All the best,
D.N.Jha




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sat Sep 23 09:46:37 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 00 10:46:37 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061835.23782.13791829192857798727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Kochar:
Thanks for the information provided . It is a very good lead which will
save me a lot of work . The dates around 3000 BCE, which many of  the ones
you have quoted is remarcable . I have also seen about the date of Ramayan,
around 7100 BCE . I had all along been wondering at their assumed model .
Even other softwares which are used by many people here , their modelling
information remains unknown.

I was working on the research of Maharaja Jaisingh II - Jantar Mantar  when
I realized the possible problem in the dates which many have arrived at .

There is no harm in trying, even if it is another one. After all, this is
the human nature . If it can be resolved, it will unravel one of the
important mysteries in the World History .

Thanks again for your valuable suggestion. That book is not available in
our library here. It will take some time to get .

Regards,
Anand M. Sharan




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Sat Sep 23 07:00:00 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 00 12:30:00 +0530
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061833.23782.9715515006565781353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I draw your attention to the following information taken from R C
Majumdar(ed)(1988) The Vedic Age ( Bombay:Bhartiya Vidya Bhavan):
"Astronomical references in the Mahabharata itself about the position of the
Nakshatra and planets have been utilized for determining the date of the
war.But,the same data have yielded various divergent results.As a matter of
fact,the statements in the Epic are conflicting and self-contradictory,so
that in order to arrive at some conclusion it is necessary to reject certain
statements or their implications as later interpolations or mere
exaggerations. .No satisfactory and acceptable result can be arrived at from
these data"{p.272}

The book (p.320,note 4)  then goes on to give examples of the various
divergent results obtained by different scholars.

Rai :3140 BC;  Triveda:3137 BC;   Vaidya:3102 BC   ;Abhyankar :3090 BC;
Sen Gupta:2449 BC;   Karandikar:1931 BC;     Deb:1400BC;
Daftary:1197BC;      Pradhan:1151.BC


There is thus urgent need to resolve the issue. It will however be not
sufficient to add one's own date to the existing directory, but  also to
comment on the results obtained so far and show why they should be rejected


Rajesh Kochhar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++

>On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:05:27 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar <rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN>
>wrote:
>
>>In the literature, one can find arguments that assign a date to the
Bharata
>>battle ranging in round numbers from  3000BC to 1000BC..It is easier to
>date
>>the beginning of the iron age than to date the Bharata battle. It would be
>>better to fix the beginning of the iron age from independent sources and
>>then use this information to constrain the Bharata battle
>chronology ,rather
>>than the  other way round.
>>rajesh kochhar
>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>Prof Rajesh Kochhar
>>Director
>>National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
>>Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
>>ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
>>hm + 91 11 576 0281
>>altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
>>web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Anand M. Sharan <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA>
>>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>>Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 3:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
>>
>>
>>>In my last posting, I had indicated the drying up of the Saraswati river
>>>around 1700 BCE, and that the Mahabharata War took place before that
based
>>>on the description in Mahabharata, about Balram's pilgrimage along the
>>>Saraswati river. I had also mentioned about Fitzgerald's work on the use
>of
>>>iron during the War. I had mentioned other instances where the use of
iron
>>>is mentioned.
>>>I have read another source about dating the Mahabharata based on the
>>>planetary configuration. It gives the date of starting of the War on Nov.
>>>22, 3067 BCE ( I will try to post the details on a web site shortly -
>>>within a few days ) . Therefore, considering any of these sources- drying
>>>up of the Saraswati river,  and the planetary configuarations, one can
say
>>>that the Iron Age in India was far older than previously believed .
>>>
>>>Thanks.
>>>
>>>Anand M. Sharan
>
>There is a reason for approaching the date of Mahabharata this way . The
>planetary motions are determinate including those of the orientation of the
>earth's rotational axis, which has a cycle of approximately 26, 000 years .
>I am not sure, if the people who have made the Panchang have included this
>motion . If they have not ( their model is based on observations, which may
>not be as accurate ), then the date will be off.  Still , it would be
>better than searching for the needle ( remains of the iron in Mahabharat)
>in the haystack . If Lord Ganesh, and Vyasjee recorded things accurately (
>the descriptions ) , it would be possible to estimate the date of the
>Mahabharat War, and hence, the Iron Age in India. All things have to
>match .  I am looking for an appropriate software to match the
>description . If any one knows about such a software, pl provide the
>details by posting it.
>
>The web site where I have posted the details of the present Estimation is
>mentioned below:
>
>http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/mahabharat/historicityofmahabharat.ht
m
>
>Thanks.
>
>Anand M. Sharan




From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA  Sat Sep 23 16:48:15 2000
From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 00 12:48:15 -0400
Subject: Circumcision in Indian literature
In-Reply-To: <39CCF5C3.2173@bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <161227061840.23782.15819970177115607458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Very grateful-- I'm going now to look these up.  Any more that you might
have to say on the subject is eagerly awaitePip

On Sat, 23 Sep 2000, Sven Ekelin wrote:

> Q. from Phillip Ernest on August 1, 2000
>           *Circumcision in Indian literature*.
> A. from Yashwant Malaiya on August 14, 2000
>           *Gandhi (was: Re: Hindu names for Muslims)*.
> Q. from Phillip Ernest on September 9, 2000
>           *Re: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs)*.
>           
> In the context of male circumcision, the following words (concerning
> which I might have more to say) are likely to be of at least some
> relevance:
> 
>      du?carman (TS+, also N); dvinagnaka (L);
>      baNDa (AV+) --- vaNDa --- caNDa [*];
>      ?ipiviSTa (RV+, much-discussed); ?unaH?epa (RV+, N).
> 
> See Abhidh?nacint?maNi iii. 118 - 119.
> 
>           [*] Cf also vaNTa, vaNDara, paNDa(ka), paNDra(ka), SaNDHa.
> 




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Sep 23 12:28:41 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 00 14:28:41 +0200
Subject: SV: looking for addresses
Message-ID: <161227061837.23782.2089785773210554618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. D N Jha [SMTP:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] skrev 23. september 2000 05:31:
> 1.Could any one give me the email/other address of Ms. Swapna Dasgupta,
Ph.DHiedelber)? A Japanese friend has asked me to find out her contact
address.

You may try the following email address:

swapna at cal2.vsnl.net.in

I am, however, not *entirely* certain that it is for the same person. But
there is no harm in trying.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE  Sat Sep 23 18:26:11 2000
From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 00 18:26:11 +0000
Subject: Circumcision in Indian literature
Message-ID: <161227061838.23782.11385421034512327644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Q. from Phillip Ernest on August 1, 2000
          *Circumcision in Indian literature*.
A. from Yashwant Malaiya on August 14, 2000
          *Gandhi (was: Re: Hindu names for Muslims)*.
Q. from Phillip Ernest on September 9, 2000
          *Re: muSTANDa, apANDa, eunuchs)*.
          
In the context of male circumcision, the following words (concerning
which I might have more to say) are likely to be of at least some
relevance:

     du?carman (TS+, also N); dvinagnaka (L);
     baNDa (AV+) --- vaNDa --- caNDa [*];
     ?ipiviSTa (RV+, much-discussed); ?unaH?epa (RV+, N).

See Abhidh?nacint?maNi iii. 118 - 119.

          [*] Cf also vaNTa, vaNDara, paNDa(ka), paNDra(ka), SaNDHa.




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Sun Sep 24 13:03:56 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 14:03:56 +0100
Subject: Gandharva nagar and Saubha nagar
Message-ID: <161227061843.23782.10506814000564569044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In reference to the word "Gandharva", there is expression in Mahabharat as
Gandharva nagar for Mirage city in the desert seen upside down in the
sky.There is also reference in Mahabharat to the flying city called Saubha
nagar. Any comments please? Thanks. N. R. Joshi.




From jkcowart at ADNC.COM  Sun Sep 24 21:48:53 2000
From: jkcowart at ADNC.COM (J. Kingston Cowart)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 14:48:53 -0700
Subject: varuNa's noose
Message-ID: <161227061849.23782.14230308792574989432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----------------------

At 07:48 PM 09/24/2000 KST, Jaekwan Shim wrote:
>Anybody know are there further discussions on <varuNa's noose> in context of
>darzapUrNamAsa ritual since Stephanie Jamison commented (Sacrificed
>Wife/Sacrificer's Wife) on F.M. Smith's reading. I know the one by Julia
>Leslie(Menstruation Myths), but other else ?
>Welcome any comments on this subject.

Dear Prof. Shim,

I believe Lynn Denton discusses varuNa's noose to some extent in 
this essay:

        Denton, Lynn Teskey.  ?Varieties of Hindu Female Asceticism.? 
                In _Roles and Rituals for Hindu Women_  Ed. Julia Leslie.  
                Rutherford, N.J.: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 
                1991.  (Ch. 10,  pp. 211-231.)

It may be helpful to you, although I cannot say how specifically it 
addresses the particular topic of your interest.  

Perhaps others on the list are familiar with it and can advise you more 
fully in that regard.

Yours truly,

J. Kingston Cowart, M.S.
San Diego, California
<jkcowart at adnc.com>




From pauranik at INDIANA.EDU  Sun Sep 24 21:30:42 2000
From: pauranik at INDIANA.EDU (Richa Pauranik)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 16:30:42 -0500
Subject: Hindu women's caste status
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000092418533067@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061847.23782.4182809264098285804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Scholars,

I am writing a conference paper, and am stuck in a place with a question:
Is a Hindu woman considered to be 'reborn' at the time of her marriage?
If yes, is she 'reborn' into her husband's caste?
If her birth-caste is different from the caste of the family she is
marrying into, what is her own caste after marriage?

Please help me out.  Thank you.

Richa Pauranik
Department of Religious Studies
Indiana University - Bloomington




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sun Sep 24 17:53:30 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 18:53:30 +0100
Subject: Maharaja Jaisingh II Should Get World-Wide Recognition For His              Contribution to Science
Message-ID: <161227061845.23782.12555236906224047362.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Maharaja lived in the turbulent times , in the court of Mohammad Shah, the
Moghal King's time. That kingdom was on decline, but the Maharaja performed
wonders as a scientist ( astronomer ) by building Sun Dials, and
astronomical observatories . The first one was built in Delhi in the year
1724 . It was about the measurement of time, that was being discussed in
the Moghal King's court . He called his sundial - Jantar Mantar , a sort of
magic by which one could see the time so accurately . His development was
independent of any other .

At least in India,  he should serve as a source of inspiration to the
children, and about whom all Indians should know.

He built other Jantar Mantars at Jaipur, Ujjain ( he was the governor
there ) , Varanasi, Mathura .

Finally, they should not damage his Jantar Mantar at Delhi when they are
going to build the under - ground train ( I think, I read this in one of
the newspapers ) .

Thanks.


Anand M. Sharan




From shimj at USA.NET  Sun Sep 24 19:48:04 2000
From: shimj at USA.NET (JAEKWAN SHIM)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 19:48:04 +0000
Subject: varuNa's noose
Message-ID: <161227061842.23782.11559099909092965723.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anybody know are there further discussions on <varuNa's noose> in context of
darzapUrNamAsa ritual since Stephanie Jamison commented (Sacrificed
Wife/Sacrificer's Wife) on F.M. Smith's reading. I know the one by Julia
Leslie(Menstruation Myths), but other else ?
Welcome any comments on this subject.


Jaekwan Shim

Lecturer
Dept. of Philosophy
Kangnung Univ.
South Korea.

____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Mon Sep 25 03:46:05 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 00 23:46:05 -0400
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061851.23782.5774127349777556879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This relates to a thread of discussion which took place a few weeks ago on
another list.

According to the following article a unique event (2 eclipses in a month
containing a 13 day waning moon period ) was observed before the mahabharata
war in 3067 BC. It also claims that all other astrnomical observations in
the epic are consistant and give a unique timestamp to the mahabharata.
http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/datemb1.PDF

If this is verified then it would mean that the mahabharata has preserved
one of the oldest astronomical observations in india. The calculations in
the article are performed in 1969. Is there an algorithmic error? There is
downloadable share ware which lets you observe the night sky and eclipses in
ancient times. Some of them go beyond 3000 BC. error inclreases for older
events. But its claimed that they are negligible for solar system objects.

http://www.fourmilab.ch/homeplanet/

and others found at

http://www.stargazing.net/AstroTips/english/index.html

I personally dont have timeto verify the events right now

I dont see how all this would relate to the iron age though. Chariots use
started around 1700 BC. iron use even later.
One could think that the core of the mahabharata story consists of a massive
tribal war fought with arrows and clubs and a series of astronomical
observatons.

chariots, advanced weapons iron and many other details could be later
insertions.

If the epic is analyzed for authenticity we should consider the the
following order indicates increeasing degrees of freedom for modification.

anecdote >> phrase/description >> word.

To convey a sense of the hardness of bhimas statue and dhritarashtras
strength in crushing it, an iron age story teller would   would naturally
say it was made of iron.
But balaramas journey along the saraswati would be less prone to colouring
and embellishment. Also geographical descriptions would be described more
dispassionately than feats of strength.

regards RB




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Sep 25 14:17:32 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 07:17:32 -0700
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061858.23782.13980027923913212852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. A. M. Sharan wrote:
> There are numerous sources due to which correct facts may not be known .
> One of them is the fact that all of these things got written up very late
> after the events.

 Exactly. Things get blown up out of proportions via oral transmission.
 Your efforts to push up the dates of MBh. and Iron age etc., by several
 centuries/millennia do not stand upto modern methods of dating.

 Not only the metrics and state of language (Eg., the Non-IA loans)
 of the epic are different. I wonder if the MBh itself is earlier than
 1700 BC, what about the Rgveda? Is it earlier than the Mature Harappan
 phase, but written in the Punjab area?! Also, all this will put
 the PIE home as India, which nowadays the lingusits don't seem to
 buy.

 Regards,
 SM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Sep 25 15:23:58 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 08:23:58 -0700
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061861.23782.3603874834823465085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Regarding modern methods of use to determine the date when it happened , I
> also intend to use the modern method .

 I remember browsing Prof. James Fitzgerald's paper about steel in MBh.,
 where the modern commentator Nilaka.n.ta's words were analyzed.
 The article talks of MBh. date: Starting from Maurya, Shunga period,
 the composing went on till *fourth* century AD.

 Regarding the pratima cast in iron mentioned in MBh., the sangam
 Tamil literature talks of a buffalo image cast in iron too. Of course,
 the cast iron and steel technology, technical vocabulary employed in
iron/steel
 technology all need to be studied in Classical Tamil texts. Easily
 they will fill up a monograph from an M.A.,/Ph.D. work and will throw
 light on early iron in India. After all, the Romans got their steel
 from South India.

 Regards,
 SM




__________________________________________________
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Mon Sep 25 07:52:04 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 08:52:04 +0100
Subject: looking for addresses
In-Reply-To: <002401c0250e$de4975e0$62ccc5cb@aa>
Message-ID: <161227061852.23782.5370407102821517204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Dear List Members,
>1.Could any one give me the email/other address of Ms. Swapna Dasgupta,
>Ph.DHiedelber)? A Japanese friend has asked me to find out her contact
>address.
>1. I need to get in touch with Harry Falk. Does any one have his email
>address?
>All the best,
>D.N.Jha

Harry Falk's email address is:

falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de

Regards,
G.v.Simson




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Mon Sep 25 18:31:50 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 11:31:50 -0700
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061870.23782.8890955030677492650.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel writes, of the recent article in THE PIONEER (New
Dehli) on Rajaram's faked "horse seal" and faked "decipherments":

> Indeed, we are not done with Rajaram yet!

Michael is a master of understatement! Stay tuned to much more
spectacular stories in the Indian press in the next few days. :^)

Steve Farmer

Michael Witzel wrote:
>
> A friend in India has alerted me to yesterday's news story on the front
> page of:
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> THE PIONEER,  New Delhi, Sunday, September 24, 2000
>
> Indus `horse' has historians on the trot
>
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives/def1.asp
>
> directly:
> http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives/secon22.asp?cat=\story7&d=fpage&t1=Sep24
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> What is really remarkable in this news item is that Rajaram shows himself a
> real Acalanaatha, and unrepentent:
>
>                           "In his e-mail reply to The Pioneer, Rajaram
> clarifies, "Both the photocopy of the seal (Mackay 453) and the artwork (of
> the horse image) were
> sent to me a couple of years ago by my coauther (sic!) Natwar Jha. I
> checked with the original postage-stamp size seal photo in the book and
> agreed with his identification and put those graphics in as an
> afterthought."
>
> So now, the poor, email-less(?) co-author N. Jha is the guilty one!
> But, the recent reprint of the original publication that Rajaram says he
> checked out in the Mythic Society, Bangalore, looks just the same as the
> one in the original publication by Mackay (*we* checked!), and not at all
> like his "computer enhancemnet", see S.Farmer's web site:
> http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html
>
> In addition, Rajaram takes refuge to his usual hobby horse, conspiracy theory:
>
>                           "However, Rajaram terms the charge as a
> "vilification campaign" against him. "I see the charge of fabrication (of
> the horse image) as a diversionary attack -- to discredit the whole book,
> including the decipherment (of the Indus script) by raising extraneous
> issues," he writes. "In the process, they want to rob Indians of their
> history and tradition, making them an intellectual colony of the West," he
> says. "
>
> extraneous, indeed!  -  As my web site
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
> shows sufficiently enough, the "decipherment" is more than flimsy, it is
> pure fantasy. I hope he does not mean that Indians want to have *his*
> script as their "tradition" !
>
> The note concludes:
>
>                           "Historians, meanwhile, are fiercely debating an
> ancient past that may have what may the debate continues."
>
> Indeed, we are not done with Rajaram yet!
> ____________________________________________________
>
> ========================================================
> Michael Witzel
> Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
> 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA
>
> ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
> home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
>
> Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Sep 25 16:49:18 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 12:49:18 -0400
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061863.23782.1056123445132103814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A friend in India has alerted me to yesterday's news story on the front
page of:

----------------------------------------------

THE PIONEER,  New Delhi, Sunday, September 24, 2000

Indus `horse' has historians on the trot


http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives/def1.asp

directly:
http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives/secon22.asp?cat=\story7&d=fpage&t1=Sep24

----------------------------------------------


What is really remarkable in this news item is that Rajaram shows himself a
real Acalanaatha, and unrepentent:

                          "In his e-mail reply to The Pioneer, Rajaram
clarifies, "Both the photocopy of the seal (Mackay 453) and the artwork (of
the horse image) were
sent to me a couple of years ago by my coauther (sic!) Natwar Jha. I
checked with the original postage-stamp size seal photo in the book and
agreed with his identification and put those graphics in as an
afterthought."

So now, the poor, email-less(?) co-author N. Jha is the guilty one!
But, the recent reprint of the original publication that Rajaram says he
checked out in the Mythic Society, Bangalore, looks just the same as the
one in the original publication by Mackay (*we* checked!), and not at all
like his "computer enhancemnet", see S.Farmer's web site:
http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html


In addition, Rajaram takes refuge to his usual hobby horse, conspiracy theory:

                          "However, Rajaram terms the charge as a
"vilification campaign" against him. "I see the charge of fabrication (of
the horse image) as a diversionary attack -- to discredit the whole book,
including the decipherment (of the Indus script) by raising extraneous
issues," he writes. "In the process, they want to rob Indians of their
history and tradition, making them an intellectual colony of the West," he
says. "

extraneous, indeed!  -  As my web site
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
shows sufficiently enough, the "decipherment" is more than flimsy, it is
pure fantasy. I hope he does not mean that Indians want to have *his*
script as their "tradition" !

The note concludes:

                          "Historians, meanwhile, are fiercely debating an
ancient past that may have what may the debate continues."


Indeed, we are not done with Rajaram yet!
____________________________________________________













========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 25 13:40:14 2000
From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 13:40:14 +0000
Subject: Quest for Material Culture of the Grammatical Texts
Message-ID: <161227061854.23782.953929624072430369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Respected Scholars of the "Indology" Group,
I am working for my doctoral research on the above mentioned topic. I have
browsed the important and original books and articles on the subject. Can
anyone furnish any other bibliographic references to the topic ?
Requesting you for such references,
Thanking you,
- Shreenand L. Bapat.
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From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep 25 13:40:25 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 14:40:25 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061856.23782.7364969484908667522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There are numerous sources due to which correct facts may not be known .
One of them is the fact that all of these things got written up very late
after the events . For the history of various scripts in India ( when they
behgan ) refer to the following web site - FIG. 3

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Mon Sep 25 15:00:02 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 16:00:02 +0100
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061859.23782.10588771056463410383.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I believe in laying out the facts in front of every one. However, one
should not make up the mind one way or the other before the results are
out . I do not want to discredit any one's work even though they differ
from one another. Based on the assumptions and modelling, they come to
their own conclusions.

Being aware of the problems in the written literature but trust in Indian
Astronomy, and descrition of simple events like Balram's voyage along the
Saraswati river, I quite confidently believe that approximate time plus or
minus 100 years can be known . May be Mahabharat is much more recent or
very old, I have no way of knowing it now.

Regarding modern methods of use to determine the date when it happened , I
also intend to use the modern method .

Regards,

Anand M. Sharan




From souasia at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Sep 25 23:18:43 2000
From: souasia at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (South Asia Library Section)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 16:18:43 -0700
Subject: South Asia conference workshop -- Navigating between the oases of              the Internet: SARAI and beyond
Message-ID: <161227061873.23782.3535759403629806634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 ***  Navigating between the oases of the Internet: SARAI and beyond  ***

During the upcoming South Asia Conference at Madison, the Committee on
South Asia Libraries & Documentation (CONSALD) will be presenting a
workshop to assist South Asia studies scholars and students to better
maximize use of the valuable resources that can be found on-line.  This
session will include a brief introduction to information gateways, search
engines and searching the Web, offer suggestions for evaluating quality of
Internet information, and highlight some of the resources for South Asia
studies teaching, learning and research.  It will be led by Dr. David
Magier, South Asia Librarian at Columbia University, who maintains South
Asia Resource Access on the Internet (SARAI).

All conference attendees are welcome.

(6-7:30pm Saturday, 14 October 2000, in 225 Pyle Hall, UW-Madison)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please excuse any cross-posting & feel free to forward to interested parties.

Alan Grosenheider
Chair, CONSALD

South Asia Librarian
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle WA 98195-2900
http://www.lib.washington.edu/Southasia/




From bipahena at REDIFFMAIL.COM  Mon Sep 25 17:23:26 2000
From: bipahena at REDIFFMAIL.COM (Hemananda.B.P)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 17:23:26 +0000
Subject: Hindu women's caste status
Message-ID: <161227061868.23782.18117486817115537111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

     DR.Richa Puranik asked

>Is a Hindu woman considered to  >be 'reborn' at the time of her marriage?
>If yes, is she 'reborn' into her husband's caste?
>If her birth-caste is different from the caste of the >family she is
>marrying into, what is her own caste after marriage?

      I am not having good idea about this concept of rebirth after marriage.First thing is that intercaste marriage   itself unusual to Indian caste system.
      Some finger countable examples are found in puranas. One that I can remember immidiately is of Yayaati{Ksatriya} and Devayaani{Brahmin,daughter of Shukracharya} marriage.But this period is said to be  transition period during which caste system was becoming stabalized.
       If this story is taken as example then we have to say that after marriage Devayaani is a Kshatriya lady.It is usual that in male dominant society women will bear the social identity of Their spouse.
        But rebirth is not such common attitude.My knowledge is very less to speak about this.As far as my knowledge is concern it is not so.

                       Hemananda Bisembli Pakeerappa.


_________________________________________________
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From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU  Tue Sep 26 00:09:05 2000
From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 19:09:05 -0500
Subject: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
Message-ID: <161227061875.23782.15823363269055214913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I agree with Professor Kochhar's assessment that there is an urgent need to
resolve this issue. I have undertaken to study this issue with computer
simulations using modern planetarium software and hopefully will be able to
arrive at some conclusion regarding the merits of various dates quoted by him.
How soon, I can't tell. But then, science has no final word, (paraphrasing
Kochhar's words!). Regards-Narahari Achar

Rajesh Kochhar wrote:

> I draw your attention to the following information taken from R C
> Majumdar(ed)(1988) The Vedic Age ( Bombay:Bhartiya Vidya Bhavan):
> "Astronomical references in the Mahabharata itself about the position of the
> Nakshatra and planets have been utilized for determining the date of the
> war.But,the same data have yielded various divergent results.As a matter of
> fact,the statements in the Epic are conflicting and self-contradictory,so
> that in order to arrive at some conclusion it is necessary to reject certain
> statements or their implications as later interpolations or mere
> exaggerations. .No satisfactory and acceptable result can be arrived at from
> these data"{p.272}
>
> The book (p.320,note 4)  then goes on to give examples of the various
> divergent results obtained by different scholars.
>
> Rai :3140 BC;  Triveda:3137 BC;   Vaidya:3102 BC   ;Abhyankar :3090 BC;
> Sen Gupta:2449 BC;   Karandikar:1931 BC;     Deb:1400BC;
> Daftary:1197BC;      Pradhan:1151.BC
>
> There is thus urgent need to resolve the issue. It will however be not
> sufficient to add one's own date to the existing directory, but  also to
> comment on the results obtained so far and show why they should be rejected
>
> Rajesh Kochhar
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> ++++++++++++
>
> >On Fri, 22 Sep 2000 19:05:27 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar <rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In the literature, one can find arguments that assign a date to the
> Bharata
> >>battle ranging in round numbers from  3000BC to 1000BC..It is easier to
> >date
> >>the beginning of the iron age than to date the Bharata battle. It would be
> >>better to fix the beginning of the iron age from independent sources and
> >>then use this information to constrain the Bharata battle
> >chronology ,rather
> >>than the  other way round.
> >>rajesh kochhar
> >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>Prof Rajesh Kochhar
> >>Director
> >>National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
> >>Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
> >>ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
> >>hm + 91 11 576 0281
> >>altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
> >>web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Anand M. Sharan <asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA>
> >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> >>Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 3:12 PM
> >>Subject: Re: Mahabharata date. Was: Iron Age in India
> >>
> >>
> >>>In my last posting, I had indicated the drying up of the Saraswati river
> >>>around 1700 BCE, and that the Mahabharata War took place before that
> based
> >>>on the description in Mahabharata, about Balram's pilgrimage along the
> >>>Saraswati river. I had also mentioned about Fitzgerald's work on the use
> >of
> >>>iron during the War. I had mentioned other instances where the use of
> iron
> >>>is mentioned.
> >>>I have read another source about dating the Mahabharata based on the
> >>>planetary configuration. It gives the date of starting of the War on Nov.
> >>>22, 3067 BCE ( I will try to post the details on a web site shortly -
> >>>within a few days ) . Therefore, considering any of these sources- drying
> >>>up of the Saraswati river,  and the planetary configuarations, one can
> say
> >>>that the Iron Age in India was far older than previously believed .
> >>>
> >>>Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>Anand M. Sharan
> >
> >There is a reason for approaching the date of Mahabharata this way . The
> >planetary motions are determinate including those of the orientation of the
> >earth's rotational axis, which has a cycle of approximately 26, 000 years .
> >I am not sure, if the people who have made the Panchang have included this
> >motion . If they have not ( their model is based on observations, which may
> >not be as accurate ), then the date will be off.  Still , it would be
> >better than searching for the needle ( remains of the iron in Mahabharat)
> >in the haystack . If Lord Ganesh, and Vyasjee recorded things accurately (
> >the descriptions ) , it would be possible to estimate the date of the
> >Mahabharat War, and hence, the Iron Age in India. All things have to
> >match .  I am looking for an appropriate software to match the
> >description . If any one knows about such a software, pl provide the
> >details by posting it.
> >
> >The web site where I have posted the details of the present Estimation is
> >mentioned below:
> >
> >http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/mahabharat/historicityofmahabharat.ht
> m
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Anand M. Sharan




From amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Sep 26 05:33:13 2000
From: amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Mr. M.M. AGRAWAL)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 00 22:33:13 -0700
Subject: address enquiry
Message-ID: <161227061865.23782.9114747424717503207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
Could any one give me the e-mail and postal address of 
Prof. Madhava Desha Panday / Prof. Ashok Aklujker
I wish to send them my new-publication, Suvarnamala by Prof. R.V. Joshi.

Prof. M.M.Agrawal.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Sep 26 15:18:00 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 08:18:00 -0700
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061878.23782.13806131345188367242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Dear Dr. Farmer,

 Learnt from your web URL about the computer-enhanced version of "horse"
 in the Indus seal by Sri Rajaram. It is interesting that he is
 determined to show the world that the Indus folks used "horses".

 At the same time, why is he denying with authority about the Dravidian
language
 family altogether? N. S. Rajaram writes, "empirical data provides no
 support for the existence of Dravidian languages independent of Sanskrit."
 (The politics of history: Aryan invasion theory and the suversion of
 scholarship [1995:177] ). With this mindset, will he allow for Dravidian
 to exist in the Indus age?

 Regards,
 SM



--- Steve Farmer <saf at SAFARMER.COM> wrote:
> Michael Witzel writes, of the recent article in THE PIONEER (New
> Dehli) on Rajaram's faked "horse seal" and faked "decipherments":
>
> > Indeed, we are not done with Rajaram yet!
>
> Michael is a master of understatement! Stay tuned to much more
> spectacular stories in the Indian press in the next few days. :^)
>
> Steve Farmer
>
> Michael Witzel wrote:
> >
> > A friend in India has alerted me to yesterday's news story on the front
> > page of:
>

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From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Sep 26 09:46:44 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 10:46:44 +0100
Subject: [ADMIN] Weekly search report
Message-ID: <161227061877.23782.12264187563694401088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thought INDOLOGY members might be interested to see a sample of the kind
of report I get from the Freefind service.  On the INDOLOGY website there
is a "Search this Site" box, which searches the website for a text string.

I get various weekly statistics on the searches performed, and here they
are for the last week:


      Daily Search Activity
      ---------------------
From: Sun Sep 17 00:00:00 PDT 2000
  To: Sun Sep 24 00:00:00 PDT 2000

    Day  Date         Queries
    --- ------        -------
    Sun Sep 17          5
    Mon Sep 18          5
    Tue Sep 19          4
    Wed Sep 20          4
    Thu Sep 21          10
    Fri Sep 22          8
    Sat Sep 23          8
    Total for week:     44



<>--------------------------------------------------------------<>


         Top 43 Keywords
         ---------------
From: Sun Sep 17 00:00:00 PDT 2000
  To: Sun Sep 24 00:00:00 PDT 2000
(Not including common words such as "the")

        Count   Keyword
        -----   -------
         4      tamil
         3      panini
         3      time
         3      sanskrit
         3      brahmin
         3      vellala
         3      alliance
         2      pali
         2      vedic
         2      hinduism
         2      divali
         2      nazi
         2      rajaram
         2      history
         1      university
         1      kali
         1      jambudvipa
         1      ancient
         1      mythology
         1      center
         1      skandapurana
         1      fonts
         1      divani
         1      job
         1      pics
         1      pictures
         1      witzel
         1      heiderberg
         1      location
         1      calcuta
         1      za
         1      bhartrhari
         1      dictionary
         1      archeology
         1      scholarship
         1      indira
         1      indian
         1      http
         1      india
         1      co
         1      ritual
         1      shudraka
         1      gahandy




             Most Recent Queries
             -------------------

Day        Time of Query             Query
---     --------------------    ---------------
Sun     Sep 24 22:01:34 2000    indira gandhi national centre for the arts
Sun     Sep 24 21:43:11 2000    devi
Sun     Sep 24 21:41:20 2000    temples
Sun     Sep 24 16:21:01 2000    dewali
Sun     Sep 24 16:20:17 2000    deevali
Sun     Sep 24 15:26:45 2000    italy
Sun     Sep 24 15:23:07 2000    italian culture
Sun     Sep 24 11:30:22 2000    pradesh
Sun     Sep 24 05:02:28 2000    sanskrit
Sat     Sep 23 23:59:26 2000    tamil
Sat     Sep 23 23:56:00 2000    tamil
Sat     Sep 23 23:43:31 2000    tamil
Sat     Sep 23 19:25:13 2000    indian history
Sat     Sep 23 14:02:57 2000    http://www.hinduism.co.za
Sat     Sep 23 07:32:41 2000    pali
Sat     Sep 23 05:47:54 2000    pali
Sat     Sep 23 01:01:36 2000    ritual
Fri     Sep 22 14:16:03 2000    vellala brahmin alliance
Fri     Sep 22 14:13:24 2000    vellala brahmin alliance
Fri     Sep 22 14:13:11 2000    vellala brahmin alliance
Fri     Sep 22 12:52:03 2000    shudraka
Fri     Sep 22 04:27:52 2000    vedic time
Fri     Sep 22 04:25:52 2000    vedic time
Fri     Sep 22 04:25:24 2000    time in hinduism
Fri     Sep 22 00:13:15 2000    archeology
Thu     Sep 21 21:03:05 2000    dictionary
Thu     Sep 21 19:09:10 2000    rajaram and nazi
Thu     Sep 21 19:08:40 2000    rajaram and nazi
Thu     Sep 21 10:33:30 2000    indira gahandy university center
Thu     Sep 21 08:57:45 2000    panini
Thu     Sep 21 08:44:03 2000    panini
Thu     Sep 21 08:32:51 2000    panini
Thu     Sep 21 02:38:56 2000    divali
Thu     Sep 21 02:38:31 2000    divali
Thu     Sep 21 02:36:51 2000    divani
Wed     Sep 20 23:56:01 2000    sanskrit
Wed     Sep 20 23:53:38 2000    jambudvipa
Wed     Sep 20 22:37:48 2000    bhartrhari
Wed     Sep 20 11:12:39 2000    scholarship
Tue     Sep 19 22:07:32 2000    witzel
Tue     Sep 19 21:21:35 2000    calcuta
Tue     Sep 19 13:35:47 2000    job
Tue     Sep 19 01:59:19 2000    mythology
Mon     Sep 18 18:06:24 2000    pics
Mon     Sep 18 18:04:19 2000    pictures on ancient india
Mon     Sep 18 16:51:32 2000    tamil
Mon     Sep 18 16:22:38 2000    heiderberg
Mon     Sep 18 13:16:03 2000    kali
Sun     Sep 17 21:19:32 2000    sanskrit
Sun     Sep 17 21:16:26 2000    sanskrit history




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Tue Sep 26 18:05:44 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 11:05:44 -0700
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061880.23782.2979897756911724469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan writes:

>  Dear Dr. Farmer,
>
>  Learnt from your web URL about the computer-enhanced version of "horse"
>  in the Indus seal by Sri Rajaram. It is interesting that he is
>  determined to show the world that the Indus folks used "horses".
>
>  At the same time, why is he denying with authority about the Dravidian
> language
>  family altogether? N. S. Rajaram writes, "empirical data provides no
>  support for the existence of Dravidian languages independent of Sanskrit."
>  (The politics of history: Aryan invasion theory and the suversion of
>  scholarship [1995:177] ). With this mindset, will he allow for Dravidian
>  to exist in the Indus age?

Wow, the non-existence of Dravidian languages is a new Rajaramism
on me: I missed that one. It is hardly surprising, however. It is
totally in harmony with Rajaram's Hindutva propaganda that the
language of the Harappans (NB: language, not languages) was "late
Vedic Sanskrit," which according to Rajaram arrived on the Indian
scene 2000-3000 years before the language itself existed. (That's
right, you can trace "late Vedic Sanskrit" to the 4th millennium
BCE, if not to the Primal Ooze.) That means, of course, that the
language of the Rigveda goes back at least to the 5th millennium,
maybe earlier, thousands of years before domesticated horses or
chariots existed anywhere on the planet. (The wheel hadn't even
appeared on the planet that early, but what's a little historical
technicality like this between Hindutva friends?)

All this would be simply crackpot fun if Rajaram's writings
didn't have a nasty fascist edge to it, and weren't meant to
mobilize the Indian masses. Stay tuned to Rajaram's definitive
deconstruction in a cover story written by Michael Witzel and me,
with a backup article from Romila Thapar, that will hit the
magazine stands in India later this week. Pretty cover, too!

Until then, see the links at
http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/update.html (which will also
take you to Michael's early paper on Rajaram's pseudo-Sanskrit).

Cheers,
Steve




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Wed Sep 27 00:21:33 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 17:21:33 -0700
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061887.23782.3117409571396443556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote, re Rajaram's historical mythology:

> All this would be simply crackpot fun if Rajaram's writings
> didn't have a nasty fascist edge to it, and weren't meant to
> mobilize the Indian masses.

Arun Gupta responded:

>  I have zero sympathy for Dr. Rajaram. But I disagree with your
> characterization (of him, of Hindutva) as fascist.
>
> It may be that fascist is a swear-word with no objective meaning.

In the case of Rajaram, the use of "fascist" is not an empty
swear-word. As Wittgenstein had it, the closest any word gets to
having "objective meaning" involves its association with wider
families of ideas. There are obvious commonalities linking the
families of ideas expoused by European fascists in the 30s (or
modern ones in the Balkans) and Rajaram's version of Hindutva. A
few of these commonalities involve ultranationalism (aka
"fascism") combined with a spiritualization and mythologizing of
national history; a hatred for minorities who supposedly
contaminate the body politic (in the case of Rajaram, Christians,
Muslims, secular thinkers, etc.); a demonization of
internationalistic ideas backed by socialists or secular
humanists; an embracement of class divisions as natural to the
order of things; concepts of national pride coupled with a
hysterical sense of enemies knocking at the gates; glorification
of armed struggle (Rajaram views the mob destruction of Babri
Mosque as symbol of the resurgence of Mother India); propagation
through mass media of "big lies" to enhance nation building (do
you really think that Rajaram *believes* in his own "horse seal"
and "decipherment" bull?); and a strong element of
anti-intellectualism and contempt for the intelligence of the
masses in general. This complex of ideas characterizes the
Hindutva/corporatism movement exemplified by Rajaram no less than
the views in the 20s and 30s of Mussolini, etc.

Insofar as Rajaram's propaganda has an audience, he is dangerous
- not simply a crackpot. It is tedious to do so, but all
legitimate researchers have a moral obligation to engage figures
like Rajaram in intellectual battle. I don't think, deep down,
that the masses are as stupid as Rajaram and his Hindutva buddies
think. Most people whom I know can be moved by evidence - if the
truth is what they are after.

Steve Farmer




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Sep 26 22:30:31 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 18:30:31 -0400
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
In-Reply-To: <39D0E51B.7468C735@safarmer.com>
Message-ID: <161227061884.23782.12804242549841186597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan writes:
>>  At the same time, why is he [Rajaram] denying with authority about the
>>Dravidian
>> language family altogether? N. S. Rajaram writes, "empirical data
>>provides no
>>  support for the existence of Dravidian languages independent of Sanskrit."
>>  ......     With this mindset, will he allow for Dravidian to exist in
>>the Indus age?

...the linguistic authority of a former engineer and computer specialist...

Hindutva proponents generally cannot stomach that a country as large as
India (not to speak of the whole subcontinent) should have languages that
do not belong to the "Sanskrit group".

Instead, (non-linguist) writers from S. Kalyanaraman (web site) to Subhash
Kak (in print, at Poona, BORI) speak of an original Prakrit (all the while
misusing the technical term, used for certain Middle Indo-Aryan languages,
spoken AFTER Vedic Sanskrit);  their kind of Pkt. would include pre-Pali,
pre-Hindi as well as pre-(ancient)-Tamil...

They also misappropriate the studies, made over the past fifty years or so,
of a 'lingustic area'  such as the Sprachbund of the Balkans, where
languages have increasingly influenced each other and have evolved certain
common grammatical categories (e.g., the postposited article in Bulgarian
and Rumanian). Archaic India would have had such an ancient "sprachbund",
speaking various sorts of "Prakrits". (Sometimes, Sanskrit is viewed as
having been 'artificially' created, by Panini!]  --  Even nowadays,
however, Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian, Albanian, (etc.)  -- each of them from
a different Indo-European sub-family: Greek, Slavic, Romanic, etc. --
*still* differ from each other in basic vocabulary and grammar and are NOT
mutually understandable.

Just as e.g., Marathi, Tamil, and Santali.

To compare the similar situation, in size and antiquity, of Europe: nobody
there is bothered that Finnish, Esthonian, Hungarian (etc.)  do not belong
to the Indo-European but to the Uralic language family. And, that Basque
descends from an old European language  that is much older than both. And,
that we also have Turkish languages (in Turkey, European Russia), and even
the (Buddhist) Mongolian Kalmyks (west of the Volga, near former
Stalingrad)...
(Not to speak of  a number of smaller Uralic languages in N. Scandinavia
and N. Russia, and all the various Caucasian etc. languages in southernmost
Russia, and beyond).

Nobody thinks a Basque or Finn to be less "European" than a Portuguese or a
Swede.
Nor -- obviously-- do the various Balkan peoples think they form an ethnic
unit.
If linguistic diversity and several language families can be tolerated in a
large sub-continent of Asia such as Europe (and in nation states with
several official languages such as Finland (2-3), Belgium (3), Switzerland
(4) etc.,) why not in India? (The constiutution mandates it anyhow!)

The "primordial Prakrit" slogan and the denial of a Dravidian language
family (stretching  from from Brahui in Baluchistan and Kurukh, Gondi in
teh Vindhyas to Tamil) is just another political ruse, intended at "nation
building" and  promoting "national unity." It has nothing to do with
linguistic reality.

I suggest to submit Indian language materials to any *disinterested*
linguist of *any* national background, such as to specialists of
sub-Saharan African, Amerindian, Australian or Papua languages, and see
what they come up with: it will be the same language families that all
other linguists, Indo-European or Drav., will enumerate to you:

We have at least 7 major language families in South Asia: Indo-European,
Dravidian, Austro-Asiatic (Munda, Khasi in Meghalaya), Tibeto-Burmese
(Himalayan belt, Arunachal, Nagaland, Manipur etc.), Thai-Kadai-etc.
(Khamti in Assam = Ahom), Burushaski (in Hunza,  etc.), Andamanese (part of
Indo-Pacific?), and many small remnant groups, unrelated to any larger
families, such as Kusunda (C. Nepal), the substrates of Nahali (on the
Tapti-- the "oldest" Indians), Tharu, Vedda, etc.
-- plus, the unknown language(s) of the Indus civilization.

For details about the ancient period, see: EJVS, Sept. 1999:
http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/

under: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0501/ejvs0501a.txt  etc.

----------








========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Tue Sep 26 22:13:59 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 23:13:59 +0100
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061882.23782.6526613823712107719.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Professor Farmer :

I have zero sympathy for Dr. Rajaram. But I disagree with your
characterization (of him, of Hindutva) as fascist.

It may be that fascist is a swear-word with no objective meaning.
Objectively, the only thing in modern India that can be called
fascist is Mrs. Gandhi and her Congress, especially during the
Emergency 1975-77.

And I do not consider association with Romila Thapar to be any
more creditable than association with Rajaram -- to me, both of
them have a unhealthy disregard for facts.

-arun gupta




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Tue Sep 26 22:32:54 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 00 23:32:54 +0100
Subject: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061885.23782.8914591328735061553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What would readers of this list name as the classical languages of India ?

What are the classical languages of India as per the Indian Council of
Historical Research (ICHR) ?

Thank you !
-arun gupta




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Sep 27 01:32:57 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 02:32:57 +0100
Subject: Hindu women's caste status
Message-ID: <161227061888.23782.13593945893376718025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Richa Puranik asked

>>Is a Hindu woman considered to be 'reborn' at the time of her marriage?
>>If yes, is she 'reborn' into her husband's caste?
>>If her birth-caste is different from the caste of the family she is
>>marrying into, what is her own caste after marriage?

First are we talking about the "varna" or a "jnati"? Today
jnatis (for example Agrawals, CKPs or Deshastha-Brahmins)
are real, and varnas largely fiction.

Since a jnati is, by definition a (mostly) endogamus group,
the question will generally not arise. If a woman marries
into a "lower" jnati, she will perhaps be accepted by the
jnati of the husband and thus become a member of that nyati.
If a man takes a lower-jnati woman, the woman may not be
fully accepted by the husband's jnati, and may never be
acknowledged as a full member.

Nambudris in the past have oten taken Nayar "wives", the wives
remained in their Nayar households and the childern were
raised as Nayars. In the past few centuries, some Rajputs have
taken wives from non-Rajput land-owning jnatis, the offspring
generally would then rank somewhat lower than the proper
Rajputs. However if they continue to intermarry with
daughters of proper Rajputs, their rank will rise.

The "rankings" of the jnatis is governed by popular perceptions.
Membership in a jnati is based on the views of the fellow
jnati members (nor unlike a club). Neither the ranking
nor the membership are subject to rules from the Dharma-shatras.

The rules of determining the designation of a varna-sankara
offspring are given in dharma-shastras. The rules represent
attempt to explain the origin of communities that did not
fit any of the four varnas.


Yashwant




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep 27 13:59:27 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 06:59:27 -0700
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061892.23782.9228148492065304712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Has he mentioned what his criterion is for "empirical data"? My
>hunch is that he has not.

At another place, Rajaram has expoused his idea as to why Dravidian is
not independent of Sanskrit.
 "The basic claim now, and one that is central to the linguistic
 interpretation of ancient India is: there was a stage in the evolution of
 so-called Dravidian languages when they were free from the influence of
 Sanskrit; otherwise the whole idea of Dravidian as a separate language
 family falls to the ground. Tamil is the oldest language of this family
 and its literature goes back only to about 100 BCE. By then it was already
 heavily influenced by Sanskrit language and literary forms. Thus from an
 empirical point of view there is no evidence whatsoever to suppose that
 any of the so-called Dravidian languages ever existed independently of
 Sanskrit."

Of course, his notion of linking the Dravidian language family with the first
attested *written* literature of Classical Tamil texts beginning only from
100 BCE is definitely an IA-centered view; See the latest issue of J. of
Inst. Asian studies article by I. Mahadevan on coins with Tamil names dating to
2nd century BCE from southern Sri Lanka. Zvelebil, Hart, Ramanujan, Rajam, ...
have written volumes of how CT differs from IA material. Dravidian
linguistics has progressed much since the days of Thieme with an IA bias
when he wrote almost 50 years ago:
"Dravidian literature in South India came into existence under the
impulse and influence of Sanskrit literature and speech."
(Thieme, Review of The Sanskrit language by T. Burrow, Language, 1955).
That was a time when people derived "thamizh" from Skt. dramiDa!

If Rajaram is right, Linguistics experts cannot study language families whose
constituent language(s) may have no writing at all.

Regards,
SM


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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Sep 27 14:46:00 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 07:46:00 -0700
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061893.23782.7842562598907378589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Witzel writes:
>Hindutva proponents generally cannot stomach that a country as large as
>India (not to speak of the whole subcontinent) should have languages that
> do not belong to the "Sanskrit group".

>Instead, (non-linguist) writers from S. Kalyanaraman (web site) to Subhash
>Kak (in print, at Poona, BORI) speak of an original Prakrit (all the while
>misusing the technical term, used for certain Middle Indo-Aryan languages,
> spoken AFTER Vedic Sanskrit);  their kind of Pkt. would include pre-Pali,
> pre-Hindi as well as pre-(ancient)-Tamil...

 D. Frawley echoes the same views on this "original Prakrit":
 "The idea that the same culture cannot produce two different
 language systems may itself be questionable. It may have been
 the very power of Vedic culture and its sages, with their
 mastery of the word, that they could have produced not only
 Indo-European like languages but also Dravidian."
 (1994, page 43, The myth of the Aryan invasion of India)

>They also misappropriate the studies, made over the past fifty years or so,
>of a 'lingustic area'  such as the Sprachbund of the Balkans, where
>languages have increasingly influenced each other and have evolved certain
>common grammatical categories (e.g., the postposited article in Bulgarian
>and Rumanian). Archaic India would have had such an ancient "sprachbund",
>speaking various sorts of "Prakrits". (Sometimes, Sanskrit is viewed as
>having been 'artificially' created, by Panini!]  --  Even nowadays,
>however, Greek, Bulgarian, Rumanian, Albanian, (etc.)  -- each of them from
>a different Indo-European sub-family: Greek, Slavic, Romanic, etc. --
>*still* differ from each other in basic vocabulary and grammar and are NOT
>mutually understandable.
>Just as e.g., Marathi, Tamil, and Santali.

See the S. Kak on "Sanskrit-Tamil-Telugu" language family in
http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/nov/18inter.htm
<<<
You have argued that the Aryan-Dravidian divide simply doesn't
exist, and that the superficial differences between North and South
India are overlaid on a unified cultural foundation.

S. Kak's reply:
The concept of an Aryan-Dravidian divide is a by-product of the racist
discourse of the 19th century. It was this racism that postulated a single
language from which all modern languages were derived. Linguists now
acknowledge that there must have existed very many language families in
the past and what has survived represents complex interactions between
different peoples and languages, many of which have left no trace. It is also
being recognized that while by one reckoning Sanskrit, Greek and Latin
belong to a family; by another, Sanskrit and Tamil and Telugu belong to
another. Linguists are now talking of the concept of a linguistic area and
the whole of India is one such area.
>>>


>The "primordial Prakrit" slogan and the denial of a Dravidian language
>family (stretching  from from Brahui in Baluchistan and Kurukh, Gondi in
>teh Vindhyas to Tamil) is just another political ruse, intended at "nation
>building" and  promoting "national unity." It has nothing to do with
>linguistic reality.

Thanks and kind regards,
SM



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From jrasik at COLMEX.MX  Wed Sep 27 16:57:59 2000
From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 11:57:59 -0500
Subject: address enquiry
Message-ID: <161227061897.23782.5016278192254193917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madan,
I have returned and started my lectures and seminars.
Let me know the following:
1.Progress of my books?
2.Find out if Bhakti-rasayana of Hari Suri is available?I want a copy
immediately.It was probably once publishedbyAkhilananad or Akhandanand.Have
you sent another set to Dr.V:N:jha?
Blassings
Rasik Vihari

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Mr. M.M. AGRAWAL [mailto:amadan at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN]
Enviado el: Martes, 26 de Septiembre de 2000 12:33 a.m.
Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
Asunto: address enquiry


Dear list members,
Could any one give me the e-mail and postal address of
Prof. Madhava Desha Panday / Prof. Ashok Aklujker
I wish to send them my new-publication, Suvarnamala by Prof. R.V. Joshi.

Prof. M.M.Agrawal.




From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Wed Sep 27 11:42:26 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 13:42:26 +0200
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061890.23782.12917337728433561426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 26 Sep 2000, um 8:18 schrieb Swaminathan Madhuresan:


<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>>  Dear Dr. Farmer,


<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>>  Learnt from your web URL about the computer-enhanced version of

> "horse" in the Indus seal by Sri Rajaram. It is interesting that he

> is determined to show the world that the Indus folks used "horses".

>

>  At the same time, why is he denying with authority about the >

> Dravidian language family altogether?


</color>Presumably because it does not suit his view of India and the

world, which is a brand of religious fundamentalism (cf. also what

S. Farmer mentioned yesterday: the "spiritualization and

mythologizing of national history"). He believes that Indian identity

depends on the question of Aryan origins, and that the Vedas are

"the wellspring" of Indian cultural identity (and that nobody in India's

past has ever questioned this). If we start from such premises, it is

not entirely illogical to think, for instance, that if Dravidian speakers

are Indians, then the Dravidian languages must be nothing more

than at best a sub-family of Indo-European. But the premises are of

course faulty. You see, for all this contempt of linguistics, we have

serious reason to assume that Rajaram has not much of a foggy

clue what linguistics (or perhaps the humanities in general) are

about. We have at least one publication in which he demonstrates

that he does not know the meaning of the word "Indo-European":

see


http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html


with more links.


<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> N. S. Rajaram writes, "empirical data provides no support for the

> existence of Dravidian languages independent of Sanskrit." [...]


</color>Has he mentioned what his criterion is for "empirical data"? My

hunch is that he has not.


RZ
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From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Wed Sep 27 15:42:56 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 17:42:56 +0200
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
In-Reply-To: <20000927135927.22430.qmail@web314.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227061895.23782.1090591841377553782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 27 Sep 2000, um 6:59 schrieb Swaminathan Madhuresan:

> >Has he mentioned what his criterion is for "empirical data"? My
> >hunch is that he has not.
>
> At another place, Rajaram has expoused his idea as to why Dravidian is
> not independent of Sanskrit.
>  "The basic claim now, and one that is central to the linguistic
> interpretation of ancient India is: there was a stage in the
> evolution of so-called Dravidian languages when they were free
> from the influence of Sanskrit; otherwise the whole idea of
> Dravidian as a separate language family falls to the ground. Tamil
> is the oldest language of this family and its literature goes back
> only to about 100 BCE. By then it was already heavily influenced by
> Sanskrit language and literary forms. Thus from an empirical point
> of view there is no evidence whatsoever to suppose that any of the
> so-called Dravidian languages ever existed independently of
> Sanskrit."

Typically the talk of a mathematician: 'let x be parallel to y,...' But
who says that x and y are parallel in the first place? Once again:
reasoning that starts from dubious premises and imposes arbitrary
limitations (such as are grist on his own mill) on the topic under
consideration. From where did he get that "basic claim"? (Probably
no reference to academic literature there!) Indeed: no foggy clue of
what linguistics is.

By the same criterion, he must be one of those people who thinks
that Urdu is derived from Arabic and Persian - which would suit a
Hindutva purpose just fine. And Hindi will never have existed
independently of English - ha! what new perspectives and
possibilities! :-)))

RZ




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 27 17:52:29 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 17:52:29 +0000
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061898.23782.925690135360804899.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Typically the talk of a mathematician: 'let x be parallel to y,...' But
>who says that x and y are parallel in the first place? Once again:

It is perhaps asking for too much on this list - but would it be possible to
keep the bashing of a particular man from transforming itself into the
bashing of the general group to which he claims to belong? No mathematician
worth his salt puts much store by dubious premises, if said premises are
indeed dubious. There is nothing "typical" about this affair.

Vidyasankar
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From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 28 03:36:00 2000
From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 20:36:00 -0700
Subject: Hindu women's caste status
Message-ID: <161227061905.23782.8398884795879632801.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Dr. Richa Puranik asked
>
> >>Is a Hindu woman considered to be 'reborn' at the
> time of her marriage?
> >>If yes, is she 'reborn' into her husband's caste?

I would say she is. Her name (including the first one)
is changed into appropriate to her 'new' caste, she
performs the appropriate home etc. rituals and raises
her children as belonging to her husband's caste. It
is said that the parting of the hair on the bride's
head signifies the two completely different parts of
her life: before and after marriage.

> >>If her birth-caste is different from the caste of
> the family she is
> >>marrying into, what is her own caste after
> marriage?

She becomes of her spouse's caste. Of course, provide
that the members of the community have accepted her as
their own.
There is a curious example (perhaps, not entirely
proper, but interesting enough): in as resent as July
this year a man in India has married his minor
daughter off to a friend's dog, believing that this
will change her gotra into 'sArameya' and stops her
constant ailments and bad luck.

Regards.
Marina Orelskaya

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From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Sep 27 19:51:11 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 20:51:11 +0100
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061900.23782.14143867330692484826.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Professor Farmer :

Points well taken.  I will point out that eminently sane people,
e.g., the founder of the Swadhyaya movement, believe that there
are major distortions in Indian history as currently written.

Also, I hope all legitimate researchers also take
note of the following ideas and fight it as well
( the complete article from which the quote is taken is posted on
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=rkhan_sep1400&n=00#reply550 )

Quote :

For example, in the presidential address to the Indian History Congress of
1964, it was announced that:

We must get to the spirit of the movement and the soul of India with an
approach that will help surmount the danger of communal, regional,
linguistic and class hatreds that beset history writing.

History has a mission and obligation to lead humanity to a higher ideal and
nobler future...The historian cannot shirk this responsibility by burying
his head in the false dogma of objectivity. History must not call to memory
ghastly aberrations of human nature, of dastardly crimes, of divisions and
conflicts, of degeneration and decay but of the higher values of life, of
traditions of culture and the nobler deeds of sacrifice and devotion to the
service of humanity. The facts of Indian history and the process of its
march have to be judged by the criterion of progress towards liberty,
morality and opportunities for self-expression...The reason for omission is
that such things bring in unhealthy trends which militate against the course
of national solidarity or international peace.

End quote

I hope that Rajaram's falsification would not be acceptable if it were in an
international socialist or secular humanist cause.  Academic truth should be
the only reason for your joining the battle, not anti-fascism.

As you may have inferred already, I do not see the battle in India as being
between truth and lies; I see it as being between two sets of liars -- the
entrenched establishment and the set of rascals who would replace it.
I suspect a great many Indians see it the same way as well.

It now comes out from the "secular" establishment that yes, there are a
great many mistakes in Indian history textbooks that they've been aware of
for a long time (inexcusable); but that that does not justify introducing
further mistakes (absolutely correct).  But this admission happened only
because of pressure from the Hindutvavadis.

-arun gupta




From torfats at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Sep 27 22:08:41 2000
From: torfats at HOTMAIL.COM (ravindran sri)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 22:08:41 +0000
Subject: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061902.23782.13681203701621655397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Classical languages of India
Toda, Santhali, Mundari, Badaga, Lambadi, Kurava, Irula (this is technically
a dialect of Tamil), Bagri, Bhili, Ho, Kurux, Lamani, Sadri, Nimadi,
Gormathi, Dakhni (which, ofcourse is a dialect of Hindi), Aaria, Ambujmaria,
Aka-Bea (this is to be found in Andaman Islands, since all these languages
were spoken in Jambudvipa, which ofcourse is India, we can iclude it), and
Digaro (which infact is closely related to Chulikta and Miju).

Ofcourse people would say Tamil,Sanskrit etc. (which is an Orientalist
conspiracy!)

Ravi


>From: Arun Gupta <suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Classical languages of India
>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:32:54 +0100
>
>What would readers of this list name as the classical languages of India ?
>
>What are the classical languages of India as per the Indian Council of
>Historical Research (ICHR) ?
>
>Thank you !
>-arun gupta

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Sep 28 03:16:16 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 00 23:16:16 -0400
Subject: FRONTLINE exposes Rajaram
Message-ID: <161227061903.23782.11108412741609201114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer's and my paper on the Rajaram mess has been released by today
and will be available on the internet by Saturday, IST.

Here, the plug (HOWEVER, in the words of the Frontline editor, Mr. N. Ram):
-------------------------------

""` `  F r o n t l i n e     ( O c t o b e r   1 3 ,   2 0 0 0 )
 p r e s e n t s ,   a s   i t s   C o v e r   S t o r y ,  t h e
 f i n d i n g s   o f   a   m a j o r   s c h o l a r l y
  in v e s t i g a t i o n   i n t o   t h e   `'P i l t d o w n
 h o r s e '   h o a x .       M i c h a e l   W i t z e l ,
 H a r v a r d   U n i v e r s i t y ,   a n d   S t e v e
 Fa r m e r ,   c o m p a r a t i v e   h i s t o r i a n ,   e x p o s e
 r e c e n t   c l a i m s   b y   H i n d u t v a v a d i s   t h a t
 t h e     I n d u s   V a l l e y    scri p t   h a s   b e e n
 d e c i p h e r e d   a n d   t h a t   t h e   l a n g u a g e   o f
 H a r a p p a   w a s     'l a t e   V e d i c   S a n s k r i t . '
 R o m i l a   T h a p a r ,   e m i n e n t   h i s t o r i a n   o f
 a n c i e n t   I n d i a ,    p r o v i d e s   a
 p e r s p e c t i v e   o n   H i n d u t v a   a n d   h i s t o r y .
  Wit h   a   r e v e a l i n g   c o l l e c t i o n   o f    I n d u s
 V a l l e y   i m a g e s . . . . p p .   4 - 1 6 .

 ` ` T h e    i s s u e   o f   t h e   m a g a z i n e   w i l l  h i t
 t h e   s t a n d s   i n   I n d i a b e t w e e n   Sept.  2 7   a n d
  2 9 ,   2 0 0 0   a n d   w i l l   b e   a v a i l a b l e
 o n l i n e   a r o u n d   S a t u r d a y ,   S e p t e m b e r   3 0 .

http://www.frontlineonline.com/

  'H o r s e p l a y   i n   H a r a p p a '   i s   t h e   C o v e r
 l e g e n d   a n d   t h e   s u b - t e x t   s a y s :   ' I n
 t h e   " P i l t d o w n   h o r s e ' '   h o a x ,   H i n d u t v a
 p r o p a g a n d i s t s   m a k e   a   l i t t l e   S a n s k r i t
 g o   a    l o n g   w a y . '

 T h i s   a u t h o r i t a t i v e   but  a c c e s s i b l e
 C o v e r   S t o r y , c o m p r i s i n g   W i t z e l   a n d
F a r m e r ' s   8 0 0 0 - w o r d   a r t i  cle    a n d   R o m i l a
 T h a p a r ' s   1 0 0 0 - w o r d   p e r s p e c t i v e
 p i e c e ,   i s    f o r   a l l   t h o s e   w i t h   a n
 i n t e r e s t   i n   t h e   o r i g i n s   o f      I n d i a ' s
 h i s t o r i c a l   c i v i l i s a t i o n ,  s p e c i f i c a l l y
 i n   t h e   I n d u s   V a l l e y      c i v i l i s a t i o n
 a n d   i t s   u n d e c i p h e r e d   a n d
 c l o s e - t o - i n d e c i p h e r a b l e   s c r i p t ;       i n
t h e   h i s t o r y   o f   V e d i c   S a n s k r i t ;   i n   t h e
 a g e   o f   a p p e a r a n c e   o f   t h e       h o r s e
 (  E q u u s   c a b a l l u s ) ,   a n d
 h o r s e - a n d - c h a r i o t ,   i n   t h e   I n d i a n
 s u b - c o n t i n e n t ;   i n   H i n d u t v a    a n d
 h i s t o r y ;   a n d   a l s o   i n   c u r r e n t   a f f a i r s .
 An    u n p u t d o w n a b l e   r ead.""

--------------------

========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From indological at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 28 06:35:16 2000
From: indological at HOTMAIL.COM (harsh v. singh)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 06:35:16 +0000
Subject: from publisher
Message-ID: <161227061908.23782.6111672103897353470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear friends,

       Kindly contact us for our new catalogue, in printed form/ as an
e-mail attachment, which has been thoroughly revised and prepared section
wise, making it more user friendly and easier to find our world famous
books as per your requirement.  Books on INDOLOGY comprising ANTHROPOLOGY,
ANTIQUITIES, INSCRIPTION, ICONOGRAPHY, PALEOGRAPHY, ARCHAEOLOGY, ART,
ARCHITECTURE, ASTROLOGY, PALMISTRY, ASTRONOMY, AYURVEDA(Indian herbal system
of medicine), BUDDHISM, HINDUISM, BHAGAVAD GITA, RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA,
FINE ARTS, HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY, HISTORY & CULTURE, LANGUAGE, NUMISMATIC,
PHILOSOPHY, RELIGION(Buddhism,  Islam, Jainism, Sikhism, Hinduism,
Christianity), SANSKRIT, TANTRA, TEXTILE, CUSTOM, TRAVELS & TRIBES, VEDAS,
PURANAS UPNISHADS, YOGA and many more related topics are listed in this
catalogue.

SEND YOUR ORDERS AND ENQUIRIES TO:
GAJENDRA SINGH.
Indological Book House
42-43 U.B. Jawahar Nagar (opp. Mc Donald?s Restaurant)
Post Box No.2165 Delhi 110007 India.
Phone: 91-011-3956080
E-Mail: indological at hotmail.com

Business Terms
1. For all direct purchases made by individuals and institutions 30%
discount will be allowed. Packing and postage free.
2. For Booksellers terms are negotiable.


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From langstonrob at JUNO.COM  Thu Sep 28 12:10:38 2000
From: langstonrob at JUNO.COM (Robert Langston)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 07:10:38 -0500
Subject: jantar-mantar
Message-ID: <161227061913.23782.17689659424326539467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The astrological parks created by Jaisingh are quite beautiful.
As I understand so far, the various instruments constructed by Jaisigh at
Delhi, Jaipur, and Benares employed eminent astrologers of his time from
both Hindu and Islamic schools. The primary concept he was going for was
bigger is better -or at least more accurate.  Apparently, he either
disregarded or was unaware of advances in  the West when these were made.
Can any one shed light on this?(excuse the pun).

Thanks,
Robert
--------------------------
Robert Langston
Art Instructor
Keystone School
119 E. Craig
San Antonio, TX 78212
W(210)735-4022
H(210) 735-6087
langstonrob at juno.com

On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:57:29 +0530 Rajesh Kochhar <rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN>
writes:
> Anand M Sharan  says ,"He [Jaisingh}called his sundial-Jantar Manta".
> What is the basis of this statement. Where is it written or implied
> that the name Jantar Mantar was used by Jaisingh himself.
> Rajesh Kochhar
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Prof Rajesh Kochhar
> Director
> National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
> Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
> ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
> hm + 91 11 576 0281
> altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
> web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}




From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK  Thu Sep 28 08:45:39 2000
From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 10:45:39 +0200
Subject: Pischel Article
Message-ID: <161227061910.23782.12925661529612985098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for a photocopy of an article by Pischel in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft, vol. 35 1881 (old series), probably on pp. 717-724.

This issue is lacking in our national collection at the Royal Library of Denmark.

Could any one please send me a photocopy of these pages?

Sincerely,
Ulrich T. Kragh
Department of Asian Studies
University of Copenhagen
Leifsgade 33
2300 Copenhagen S
Denmark




From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Thu Sep 28 05:27:29 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 10:57:29 +0530
Subject: jantar-mantar
Message-ID: <161227061907.23782.9594456910483380732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Anand M Sharan  says ,"He [Jaisingh}called his sundial-Jantar Manta".
What is the basis of this statement. Where is it written or implied that the name Jantar Mantar was used by Jaisingh himself.
Rajesh Kochhar
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prof Rajesh Kochhar
Director
National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies
Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012
ph + 91 11  5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231   fax 5754640
hm + 91 11 576 0281
altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com
web site  http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www}




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Thu Sep 28 17:57:20 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 13:57:20 -0400
Subject: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061928.23782.455015320352020746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'
'>'Am 27 Sep 2000, um 22:08 schrieb ravindran sri:
'>'
'>'> Classical languages of India
'>'> Toda, Santhali, Mundari, Badaga, [...]
'>'>
'>'> Ofcourse people would say Tamil,Sanskrit etc. (which is an Orientalist
'>'> conspiracy!)
'>'
'>'Another evil conspiracy? By whom, and why?
'>'
'>''Classical' does not mean the same as 'ancient' or 'attested since
'>'very old times'. Furthermore, that something is not 'classical' does
'>'*not* mean that it is not worth serious scholarly attention. (Perhaps
'>'this needs to be mentioned here.)

    Would you or soemone else on this list be kind enough to explain
    what is a classical language and why Tamil is not one of them ?

    Thanks

    C.R.Selvakumar
'>'
'>'RZ
'>'Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
'>'Institut f=FCr Indologie und Iranistik
'>'Universit=E4t M=FCnchen
'>'Tel. (089) 2180-5782
'>'E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Thu Sep 28 13:13:05 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 14:13:05 +0100
Subject: LOOKING FOR A WEB SITE FOR BROADER INDOLOGY DISCUSSIONS ?
Message-ID: <161227061917.23782.7003800313940855960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My field is not literature but I have interest in broader issues which can
be called Indology . I find that my interests often are not intended for
this group which is meant primarily for those having interest in
literature .

Any one knowing about such a web site , pl post it on this web site .

I want to respond to the questions raised here on the following issues:

1. Jantar Mantar

2. What language did Buddha Speak ?

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Sep 28 13:31:21 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 14:31:21 +0100
Subject: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061919.23782.12389386856908999652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you !

According to a rediff.com article, the ICHR names Sanskrit, Arabic and
Persian as the classical languages of India.

-arun gupta

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:08:41 GMT, ravindran sri <torfats at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Classical languages of India Toda, Santhali, Mundari, Badaga, Lambadi,
>Kurava, Irula (this is  technically a dialect of Tamil), Bagri, Bhili, >Ho,
Kurux, Lamani, Sadri, Nimadi, Gormathi, Dakhni (which, ofcourse is a dialect
>of Hindi), Aaria,  Ambujmaria, Aka-Bea (this is to be found in Andaman
>Islands, since all these languages were spoken in Jambudvipa, which >of
course is India, we can iclude it), and
>Digaro (which infact is closely related to Chulikta and Miju).




From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Thu Sep 28 13:08:13 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 15:08:13 +0200
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
In-Reply-To: <F143tkiYAsdtDlVNwvu00005d4d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227061915.23782.17356662666257887044.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 27 Sep 2000, um 17:52 schrieb Vidyasankar Sundaresan:

> >Typically the talk of a mathematician: 'let x be parallel to y,...'
> >But who says that x and y are parallel in the first place? Once
> >again:
>
> It is perhaps asking for too much on this list - but would it be
> possible to keep the bashing of a particular man from transforming
> itself into the bashing of the general group to which he claims to
> belong?

Perhaps it indeed is asking too much, :-))) after the performances
of 'scientists' on this list from time to time. Let me assure you that
I have nothing against mathematicians per se; but I do find
Rajaram's piece very illustrative of the style of reasoning that
regularly leads to clashes here because it is out of place. Of
course not all mathematicians a.o. do that; but then they cease to
be 'typical' mathematicians etc.

RZ




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Thu Sep 28 22:58:58 2000
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 15:58:58 -0700
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061939.23782.4077098896491925087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:
> "A classical language is a language with an ancient
> literature of
> outstanding quality that through a considerable
> period of time has played
> an important part in the history, literature and
> culture of several peoples
> that otherwise may use different mother tongues."


Dear Dr Fosse,

This suggestion seems to require, for a candidate
language to qualify as classical, an imperial context
whereby subject peoples use the language of the
imperial nuclear zone viz., Latin in the Roman Empire.

I'm not altogether sure this model is directly valid
in the Indian context esp. of Tamil.

In the case of Tamil, the elegant reasoning of AK
Ramanujan is certainly worth recalling - cf. Indology
post dt Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:54:44 PST by Chris
Fernandez in the thread 'Classical vs. Modern'.

I hope that you do not require that a language be well
and truly dead for it to qualify as a Classical
language. This was another one of the arguments
advanced against Tamil's claims to being a Classical
language.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS




__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
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From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Thu Sep 28 14:50:17 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 16:50:17 +0200
Subject: Classical languages of India
In-Reply-To: <F294QugGlyAs6jn2F3I000077e4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227061921.23782.5612886849373176641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 27 Sep 2000, um 22:08 schrieb ravindran sri:

> Classical languages of India
> Toda, Santhali, Mundari, Badaga, [...]
>
> Ofcourse people would say Tamil,Sanskrit etc. (which is an Orientalist
> conspiracy!)

Another evil conspiracy? By whom, and why?

'Classical' does not mean the same as 'ancient' or 'attested since
very old times'. Furthermore, that something is not 'classical' does
*not* mean that it is not worth serious scholarly attention. (Perhaps
this needs to be mentioned here.)

RZ

Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik
Universit?t M?nchen
Tel. (089) 2180-5782
E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Thu Sep 28 21:28:08 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 17:28:08 -0400
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061935.23782.6745164593284152653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'I don't have a clear-cut definition at hand, but I could suggest one:
'>'
'>'"A classical language is a language with an ancient literature of
'>'outstanding quality that through a considerable period of time has played
'>'an important part in the history, literature and culture of several peoples
'>'that otherwise may use different mother tongues."
'>'
'>'This definition would include languages such as Greek, Latin, Arabic,
'>'Persian, and Sanskrit as well as Classical Chinese. It would exclude Tamil,
'>'Old Norse, Old German, Anglo-Saxon English etc. in spite of the fact that
'>'these languages have old and venerable literatures. Classical languages are
'>'normally used across time and space by educated people and serve as link
'>'languages and carriers of ideas with some claim to universality: e.g. Greek
'>'and Latin for Christianity, Arabic for Islam, Sanskrit for Hinduism etc.

    Even by your own definition, Tamil will eminently qualify as
    classical language. I wonder what aspect of your definition
    Tamil does not qualify !
    Also I wonder whether you can cite Old Norse, Old German and
    Anglo-Saxan English literature comparable to Tamil before
    500 C.E. ? By this question, I don't imply that none exists, but
    I would like to see some comparable literature cited for the Sangam
    corpus (just the surving part) written by some 500 poets
    (including many lady poets),
    the great ThirukkuRaL, songs like Kaniyan PoonkunRan's 'yaathum oorE',
    epics like Silappathikaaram, ManimEklai,Ciivaka CinthaamaNi,
    Grammatical works like Tholkaappiyam,
    musical works etc. There are no works like Thevaaram and Thiruvaasagam
    and Alvaar's songs in Sanskrit. Are there works like Thirumanthiram
    in Old Norse, Old German, Anglo-Saxan English ?
    Tamil works had been translated into numerous world languages
    over long period of time. The Zen Buddhism and many aspects of
    Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism come from Tamil Nadu and much of
    it no doubt requires to be researched.

    Thanks

    C.R.Selvakumar
'>'
'>'I offer myself up for criticism.
'>'
'>'Best regards,
'>'
'>'Lars Martin Fosse




From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Sep 28 12:11:09 2000
From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 17:41:09 +0530
Subject: from publisher
Message-ID: <161227061912.23782.6898527205273182498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could you kindly send me a copy of your catalogues as an attachment?
D.N.Jha
Professor of History
University of Delhi
Email: dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in
----- Original Message -----
From: harsh v. singh <indological at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:05 PM
Subject: from publisher


> Dear friends,
>
>        Kindly contact us for our new catalogue, in printed form/ as an
> e-mail attachment, which has been thoroughly revised and prepared section
> wise, making it more user friendly and easier to find our world famous
> books as per your requirement.  Books on INDOLOGY comprising ANTHROPOLOGY,
> ANTIQUITIES, INSCRIPTION, ICONOGRAPHY, PALEOGRAPHY, ARCHAEOLOGY, ART,
> ARCHITECTURE, ASTROLOGY, PALMISTRY, ASTRONOMY, AYURVEDA(Indian herbal
system
> of medicine), BUDDHISM, HINDUISM, BHAGAVAD GITA, RAMAYANA & MAHABHARATA,
> FINE ARTS, HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY, HISTORY & CULTURE, LANGUAGE, NUMISMATIC,
> PHILOSOPHY, RELIGION(Buddhism,  Islam, Jainism, Sikhism, Hinduism,
> Christianity), SANSKRIT, TANTRA, TEXTILE, CUSTOM, TRAVELS & TRIBES, VEDAS,
> PURANAS UPNISHADS, YOGA and many more related topics are listed in this
> catalogue.
>
> SEND YOUR ORDERS AND ENQUIRIES TO:
> GAJENDRA SINGH.
> Indological Book House
> 42-43 U.B. Jawahar Nagar (opp. Mc Donald's Restaurant)
> Post Box No.2165 Delhi 110007 India.
> Phone: 91-011-3956080
> E-Mail: indological at hotmail.com
>
> Business Terms
> 1. For all direct purchases made by individuals and institutions 30%
> discount will be allowed. Packing and postage free.
> 2. For Booksellers terms are negotiable.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.
>




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Fri Sep 29 00:52:27 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 17:52:27 -0700
Subject: Horseplay in Harappa
Message-ID: <161227061944.23782.8497872534550440952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is now a second fast download site for "Horseplay in
Harappa: The Indus Valley Decipherment Hoax." The article is the
cover story in the most recent edition of FRONTLINE, the India
news magazine. As in Michael Witzel's site, the editorial on our
story by Romila Thapar will also be available from the site given
below in the next few days.

http://www.safarmer.com/frontline

The same material is also available from Michael's site at:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/FRONTLINE.htm

Within a few days (the new edition isn't posted yet) the article
will also be directly available in *both* HTML and PDF formats,
permanently archived, from:

http://www.frontlineonline.com

The Hindutva polemics in India over the article are already
getting heated and nasty, as we expected. The upshot is that the
article is apparently having its effect.

My best,
Steve Farmer




From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK  Thu Sep 28 16:06:19 2000
From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 18:06:19 +0200
Subject: Pischel Article
Message-ID: <161227061924.23782.3917114944474077702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you to Bogdan Diaconescu for providing me with a copy of the requested article of Pischel. Also, thank you to George Baumann for his help.

Sincerely,
Ulrich T. Kragh
University of Copenhagen




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Sep 28 16:13:20 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 18:13:20 +0200
Subject: SV: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061926.23782.15883491896630161489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 27. september 2000 02:22:
> In the case of Rajaram, the use of "fascist" is not an empty
> swear-word. As Wittgenstein had it, the closest any word gets to
> having "objective meaning" involves its association with wider
> families of ideas. There are obvious commonalities linking the
> families of ideas expoused by European fascists in the 30s (or
> modern ones in the Balkans) and Rajaram's version of Hindutva.

It is true that there are a number of commonalities between such movements
as the RSS and other players on the Hindutva scene and European fascism and
Nazism. Christophe Jaffrelot has discussed them in his book The Hindu
Nationalist Movement in India. Jaffrelot hesitates to call the RSS a
fascist movement because it lacks certain formal characteristics of
Fascism/Nazism. (See page 61ff) Yet it is very hard to avoid noticing the
fascist flavour of such organisations as the RSS and persons like Rajaram.
Steve Farmer has given a number of such commonalities. With the term
"gulyash communism" in mind, it is tempting to call this "curry fascism".
(Gulyash is the "national" soup of Hungary and gulyash communism meant
communism with a decided Hungarian flavour.) However, regardless of what we
call things, there are some striking features of Hindutva which seem
strange to an observer of India. The weirdest and most "un-Indian" thing is
the complete lack of tolerance that the movement shows towards Indians of
so-called "non-Indian" religions. Hinduism has usually been regarded as
"orthoprax" rather than "orthodox", and there has been a great deal of
freedom in the choice of religious stance. What has happened to this
principle of freedom of religion in Hindutva? On the pages of the
Organiser, the principle is dead. Rajaram in his rhetoric against Muslims
and Christians set these members of other religions up for murder, and he
is not the only one engaged in this disgusting game. His falsification of
the past serves no noble end, it is a complete perversion of scholarship
without mitigating moral results.

>Arun Gupta wrote:

>For example, in the presidential address to the Indian History Congress of
1964, it was announced that:

>We must get to the spirit of the movement and the soul of India with an
approach that will help surmount the danger of communal, regional,
linguistic and class hatreds that beset history writing.

>History has a mission and obligation to lead humanity to a higher ideal
and
nobler future...The historian cannot shirk this responsibility by burying
his head in the false dogma of objectivity. History must not call to memory
ghastly aberrations of human nature, of dastardly crimes, of divisions and
conflicts, of degeneration and decay but of the higher values of life, of
traditions of culture and the nobler deeds of sacrifice and devotion to the
service of humanity. The facts of Indian history and the process of its
march have to be judged by the criterion of progress towards liberty,
morality and opportunities for self-expression...The reason for omission is
that such things bring in unhealthy trends which militate against the
course
of national solidarity or international peace.

This quote is interesting because it openly professes that history should
preach certain values and be instrumentalized for certain ends (as against
being strictly factual and analytical in approach). In this respect, a
comparison with the Hindu nationalist movement's manipulation of history is
relevant. It might be added that a similar approach was used after the
second world war in the treatment of German and French history. In both
countries, unpleasant facts were suppressed and a "useful" version of
history presented to the public. This has changed recently as the natural
course of life has sent a large part of the war generation to a dusty
grave. Now, the unmentionable gets mentioned. But although the quote so
usefully brought up by Arun Gupta is a clear invitation to the
falsification of history, there are at least mitigating moral
circumstances. It may be argued that some truths are better kept within
closed and responsible circles, and that all truths have their time. Yet no
matter how well the intentions, falsification remains falsification, and it
confounds the one thing for which history should be useful: learning from
historical mistakes.

May I suggest that the real problem is not simply history and reality, but
rather political rhetoric and presentation to the public? The
instrumentalisation of history as a means to legitimize claims of various
kinds or for other purposes subverts not only scholarly objectivity in the
field but effectively puts history outside the pale of bona fide academic
activities. History is not necessarily justification. E.g. pointing out
past conflicts is not necessarily a reason for continuing the very same
conflicts. At the rhetorical level, one might instead draw the opposite
conclusion. In the final analysis, the presidential address quoted by Arun
Gupta is not much better than the Hindutva views on how to use history. It
is up to historians to steer clear of political abuse while being honest
and critical about the past. If not, we inevitably get the conclusion that
Arun Gupta gives us: we have a struggle between two sets of liars.
"Benevolent" falsification of history easily paves the way for "malevolent"
falsification.

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 28 19:06:08 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 19:06:08 +0000
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061933.23782.10143123004172353135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think Tamil will also fit well with Dr. Fosse'd definition
of a Classical language:

a) Tamil shaivaite hymns were long used in Thailand's royal
coronation ceremonies;

See: Chulalongkorn, King of Siam, 1853-1910.

Main Title:
Phrar?atchaphith?i tr?iyamphaw?ai-tr?ipaw?ai, (ch?ak
Phrar?atchaphith?i  12 d?u?an) [microform] / phrar?atchaniphon nai
Phrab?at Somdet Phra Chunlach?omkl?ao Ch?aoy?uhua.

Published/Created:
[Bangkok] : Phray?a Chonlam?akphich?an, 2477 [1934]
Notes:
In Thai.
"Phray?a Chonlam?akphich?an `Athib?od?i Krom Chonlaprath?an phim
m?u?a pen Phray?a Y?u?n chingch?a."
Description of a royal ceremony in which two Tamil devotional works,
Tirupp?avai by ?Ant?al and Tiruvemp?avai by M?anikkav?acakar are
recited.

b) For some other Tamil texts in Thailand:
Neelakanta Sarma,
Textes sanskrits et tamouls de Thailande.
Introd. par Jean Filliozat, 1972, Pondichery

c) It looks some mahaayaana dhaaraNis were at one time in Tamil also:
Franz Bernhard, 1967, Zur Entstehung einer DhAraNI,
ZDMG, v. 117, pp. 148-168

d) KaNNaki, the heroine of the Tamil literary epic called
CilappatikAram has been worshipped as Goddess Pattini
in Sri Lanka. See Sinhalese worship in
G. Obeyesekare, Cult of the Goddess Pattini,
1984, University of Chicago.

e) J. Ph. Vogel (among others) has written about the Tamil
folk deity Aiyanaar at Isuramuniya, Sri Lanka.

f) The most important example within India is the Shrivaishnava
tradition:  Alvar saints' poems in the prayers to Vishnu in many
Indian regions are used for centuries where Tamil is not the
majority language. Ofcourse,Tamil Alvar poems have been found
inscribed near temples and tanks in South East Asia for 1000
or more years.

Interestingly, Tamil has epics on Shaivism, Vaishnavism,
Jainism, Buddhism, Islam and Christianity as well.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

---------------
C.R. Selvakumar [SMTP:selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA] skrev
28. september 2000 19:57:
 >     Would you or soemone else on this list be kind enough to
 >     explain what is a classical language and why Tamil is not
 > one of them ?

I don't have a clear-cut definition at hand, but I could suggest one:

"A classical language is a language with an ancient literature of
outstanding quality that through a considerable period of time has
played an important part in the history, literature and culture of
several peoples that otherwise may use different mother tongues."

This definition would include languages such as Greek, Latin, Arabic,
Persian, and Sanskrit as well as Classical Chinese. It would exclude
Tamil, Old Norse, Old German, Anglo-Saxon English etc. in spite of
the fact that these languages have old and venerable literatures.
Classical languages are  normally used across time and space by
educated people and serve as link languages and carriers of ideas
with some claim to universality: e.g. Greek and Latin for
Christianity, Arabic for Islam, Sanskrit for Hinduism etc.

I offer myself up for criticism.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Sep 28 23:18:22 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 19:18:22 -0400
Subject: Rajaram FRONTLINE paper in pdf
Message-ID: <161227061940.23782.854336288208438831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yesterday I announced the FRONTLINE paper on Rajaram/Jha's horse=bull &
'decipherment'.
We have now received it in pdf form. You can view it via my web site (with
the periodically  updated Rajaram & Jha file (R&J) ---- to keep track of
developments)

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

or directly at:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/FRONTLINE.htm

Romila Thapar's paper still is missing there as I cannot reach her for
copyright permission. She is 'out of station'.

Unfortrunately, yesterdays's PLUG for the papers, by FRONTLINE editor N.
Ram, was distorted by Bill's various programs. I do not seem to be able to
fix it (it was/is OK on my Mac).  I will resend it later on, maybe once
Frontline of 10/13 comes online.


ENJOY!


M.W.
========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH  Thu Sep 28 17:57:19 2000
From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 19:57:19 +0200
Subject: from publisher
Message-ID: <161227061930.23782.3737818372297419527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please send us all your catalogues per e-mail. The orders will be placed
through the Biblioth?que cantonale et universitaire of Fribourg. Greetings.
A. Nayak



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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Sep 28 18:13:22 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 20:13:22 +0200
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061931.23782.5947569765235358513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

C.R. Selvakumar [SMTP:selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA] skrev 28. september
2000 19:57:
>     Would you or soemone else on this list be kind enough to explain
>     what is a classical language and why Tamil is not one of them ?

I don't have a clear-cut definition at hand, but I could suggest one:

"A classical language is a language with an ancient literature of
outstanding quality that through a considerable period of time has played
an important part in the history, literature and culture of several peoples
that otherwise may use different mother tongues."

This definition would include languages such as Greek, Latin, Arabic,
Persian, and Sanskrit as well as Classical Chinese. It would exclude Tamil,
Old Norse, Old German, Anglo-Saxon English etc. in spite of the fact that
these languages have old and venerable literatures. Classical languages are
normally used across time and space by educated people and serve as link
languages and carriers of ideas with some claim to universality: e.g. Greek
and Latin for Christianity, Arabic for Islam, Sanskrit for Hinduism etc.

I offer myself up for criticism.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 29 04:08:41 2000
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 21:08:41 -0700
Subject: Horseplay in Harappa
Message-ID: <161227061949.23782.9608713076523765466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Steve Farmer <saf at SAFARMER.COM> wrote:
>...
>
> The Hindutva polemics in India over the article are already
> getting heated and nasty, as we expected. The upshot is that the
> article is apparently having its effect.
>
Hope it sobers up  the online newspaper columnist at
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/sep/22rajeev.htm

"...We must put a lot of effort into deciphering the
Indus-Sarasvati Valley Civilisation's language. My suspicion is
that it will show that there was no 'Aryan' invasion, no
'Dravidian' race: our early civilisation,was possibly the oldest
in the world with the city-site in Mehrgarh, Pakistan going
back to 6000 BCE, earlier than Sumeria, earlier than Babylon,
earlier than Mesopotamia.

I suspect we will find that the Sarasvati language was indeed
both proto-Sanskrit and proto-Tamil, thus demonstrating once
and for all the total and historical cultural unity of Indian
civilisation. No more separate identities: just migrations from
that riverine cradle of civilisation in the Sarasvati flood-plain
to other parts of the Indian subcontinent.

In my opinion, India's classical languages are Sanskrit,
Pali/Prakrit and Tamil. These form the true literatures of the
Indic tradition -- Vedic Hindu, Buddhist/Jaina, and non-Vedic
Hindu. Naturally, the Nehruvian Stalinists were eager to
condemn all three of these as part of their enterprise of
destroying Indic civilisation. ..."

> My best,
> Steve Farmer



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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Sep 28 21:54:21 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 00 21:54:21 +0000
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061937.23782.2410146029781837844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>     Grammatical works like Tholkaappiyam,
>     musical works etc. There are no works like Thevaaram and Thiruvaasagam
>     and Alvaar's songs in Sanskrit.

No works at all in Sanskrit? This is the other extreme of the linguistic
politics that plagues contemporary Indian thinking. Apparently, praise for
Tamil literature can only be at the
expense of Sanskrit literature and vice versa.

Vidyasankar
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From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 29 00:46:19 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 00:46:19 +0000
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061942.23782.10811771668592672890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The definition given today for a classical language
will only suit for invaders like Arabic or Sanskrit or Persian
or Greek. Quoting from memory, A.K.Ramanujan wrote
that "after all a language is nothing but a dialect with
an army".

Dravidologists consider the pre-Pallavan sangam texts
as Classical Tamil ever since their rediscovery and
publication on paper in 19th century. Just like
Greek and Arabic, Modern Tamil is very different from
Classical Tamil. Indeed, "Early classical Tamil is not
intelligible to a modern Tamillian without special study."
(p. 98, AKR, The Interior Landscape).
In another book, Poems of Love and War, AKR also said:
"These poems are "classical," i.e., early, ancient; they are also
"classics," i.e., works that have stood the test  of
time, the founding works of a whole tradition. Not to know
them is not to know a unique and major poetic achievement of
Indian civilization."

The CT texts are remote to any living human.
"First of all, the so-called Sangam Tamil poetry is
regarded by the Tamils themselves, by the professional
historiographers and critics, as well as by intellectual
readers, as classical in the same sense in which we regard
some parts of our national literatures as classical.
Second, it has been a finite, "frozen" corpus, a body
of texts which had not been expanded since it ceased to
be part of a live oral tradition. Since those times, it
has become a part of the classical heritage as it were.
Third, it is the expression of a linguistic, prosodic and
stylistic perfection; it is a finished, consummate
and inimitable literary expression of an entire culture,
and of the best in that culture; in this sense,
it is truly a classical product, a classical literature."
(p. 50, K. Zvelebil, The Smile of Murugan).

The Satakarni kings ruling north of Tamil country have
issued bilingual coins with Sanskrit and Tamil on
each side. Tamil Saints/Poets' hagiographies have been
rendered into Kannada and Telugu. Marathi abhangs
have Tamil saints' stories. In Cambodia, many
sculptures of a Tamil poetess, Karaikkaal Ammai,
watching Nataraja dance do exist.

Best,
V. Iyer



From: Lakshmi Srinivas <lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM>

This suggestion seems to require, for a candidate
language to qualify as classical, an imperial context
whereby subject peoples use the language of the
imperial nuclear zone viz., Latin in the Roman Empire.

I'm not altogether sure this model is directly valid
in the Indian context esp. of Tamil.

In the case of Tamil, the elegant reasoning of AK
Ramanujan is certainly worth recalling - cf. Indology
post dt Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:54:44 PST by Chris
Fernandez in the thread 'Classical vs. Modern'.

I hope that you do not require that a language be well
and truly dead for it to qualify as a Classical
language. This was another one of the arguments
advanced against Tamil's claims to being a Classical
language.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS


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From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Fri Sep 29 02:00:50 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 03:00:50 +0100
Subject: Rajaram unrepentent!
Message-ID: <161227061946.23782.7134808204947454235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Steve Farmer wrote:

>. There are obvious commonalities linking the
> families of ideas expoused by European fascists in the 30s (or
> modern ones in the Balkans) and Rajaram's version of Hindutva.

I recently was researching the various 19th century theories about
Atlantis for a small book on the subject and the following information
seems somewhat pertinent -- some may already be familiar with it but
perhaps it will interest others:

In the early decades of the 20th century, there was a secret
organization with its headquarters in Munich called the Thule Society
(Thule Gesellschaft).   It derived its name from the legendary island
in the North Sea that was believed to be a part of Atlantis and was
believed to have served as a refuge for the fleeing Atlantean Aryans
and was as such the source of all higher culture.   Dedicated to
occultism and the establishment of a pan-German state, the Thule
Society set up and funded the German Workers Party with the specific
aims of promoting German nationalism, anti-Communism, anti-Semitism
and the supremacy of the Aryan race.   Adolf Hitler joined this German
Workers Party after the First World War and soon took over its
leadership, transforming it into the National Socialist Party.  These
ideas of an Aryan "master race" appealed to the disgruntled Hitler and
he quickly adopted many of its ideas in his bid to create a German
super-state.  He also seems to have believed that Aryans originated in
Atlantis and that it was his destiny to restore the Aryan race to its
original pristine purity.   His favourite henchman, Heinrich Himmler,
who became head of the SS, was especially interested in the occult and
tried to make his contribution to civilization by eliminating the
various "inferior races".

If there is one thing that history teaches us, it is that people do
not learn from history !

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From giravani at JUNO.COM  Fri Sep 29 03:32:13 2000
From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 04:32:13 +0100
Subject: Archaeology of India between 3000 BC and 600 BC
Message-ID: <161227061947.23782.9559694576170191526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I see the discussion about the ancient history of India prior to 6th
century BC(the period of Jain Thirthankara Mahaveera) goes round and round
about PIE, horse, Mohenjodaro,undeciphered Indus script and excavated
Buddhist Stoopas and Viharas and Tamil language.Are there any
archaeological excavations and/or discoveries that could fill up the gap
between 600 BC and 3000 BC? For example who were in the south India when
the Jewish king Soloman (900BC to 1000BC)had trade contract with Indian
king or kings?Just saying that there were Aryan people or Dravidian people
or mixture of both does not tell us anything.Portraying the picture of the
ancient Indian civilization in one way or in another way makes no sense
without the sufficient archaeological excavations.We need research papers
and information without premature position papers from either side.




From saf at SAFARMER.COM  Fri Sep 29 16:28:01 2000
From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 09:28:01 -0700
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227061967.23782.12122880078593036133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nanda Chandra writes, in one message:

> And in this they have the support of "researchers" like S Farmer etc. I am
> curious to know what exactly his motivation in this whole matter is?
> According to his earlier posts he is not even an Indologist and was only
> interested in Indian history in relation to other cultures. But now it looks
> like he has turned full time Indologist! So what motivated him to join
> forces with M Witzel and spend so much time in refuting Rajaram?
>
> I hope you won't dish out the "integrity and truth" routine to me ... I'm
> too cynical to believe in such!

I'm always sorry to find anyone too burned out to believe in
"integrity and truth." Comparative historians by definition deal
with more than one civilization. Are you telling me that Indology
is out of bounds? By the way, I've certainly conducted enough
historical research, held enough post-docs, research grants,
university teaching positions, and produced enough scholarly
works (including a recent 595-page book on premodern thought) not
to have "researcher" put in question marks. How about you?

Anun Gupta writes:

> Romila Thapar along with other JNU historians issued a statement about a
> decade ago, regarding the Babri Masjid dispute. In that statement they cite
> the Babarnamah as evidence that Babur did not demolish any temple in
> Ayodhya....

I hardly think that that what led to the mob destruction of Babri
Mosque qualifies as a simple "dispute." Can I point out that
Rajaram glorifies its destruction as the beginning of the
resurgence of modern India?

So indeed: truth and integrity. Rajaram stands for a lot more
than just intellectual dishonesty. There is a nasty political
edge to everything he writes. His supposedly historical works are
not aimed at scholars but at mobilizing the masses in India.
Opposing people like him is not a scholarly act (it doesn't take
much research acumen to undercut his work) but a moral act. If
Rajaram were just a crackpot - and there are obviously plenty of
crackpots around who claim to have deciphered Harappan -
discussing his work wouldn't be worth the effort. But Rajaram is
a Hindutva propagandist, not a scholar. If you doubt this, I
suggest that you read Rajaram's political writings at the
(ironically named) "Sword of Truth" website. Deep down, I think,
people *can* be moved by evidence, and that makes the effort
worth it.

By the way, I don't see you or anyone else defending Rajaram's
views on his "decipherment" these days, correct? A few months ago
Koenraad Elst was dropping deep hints in this newsgroup that
Rajaram's book was about to work a revolution in Indology.
Efforts wasted?

I must pass by further discussions of this sort, since I have to
prepare some "research" (I'll retain the quotation marks) at a
conference next week.

Steve Farmer




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 29 10:16:06 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 10:16:06 +0000
Subject: Horseplay in Harappa
Message-ID: <161227061953.23782.6476627137649289729.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

It is indeed amazing how a trifling matter like the "Horseplay of Rajaram"
is being blown up to gigantic proportions by our "secularist" press.

When S Farmer et al went on their witch hunt after "exposing" Rajaram, I
passed it off as mere polemic albeit in obvious bad taste (especially the
embarassing effort to disprove Rajaram's "credentials"). But looks like
their "investigative" efforts have caught the attention of our "comrades" in
India. The fact is that the "spectacular" decipherment of the Indus script
by Rajaram and Jha got very little media attention when it was first
announced. But now that they've been proved wrong, I'm sure that our
secularist press will turn the full glare of the spotlight on them. For
negative publicity and distortion of facts - leave it to the Red Brigade -
they've mastered the art!

Is the refutation of Rajaram's "horseplay" itself enough proof in favour
of the AIT? Is that proof enough that Harappa was Dravidian? Or that
Harappa wasn't Vedic? Or that the Indus script is Dravidian or isn't Vedic?
And does mere non-existence (of horses on seals) prove their physical
non-existence too in IVC?

The anwser is a resounding "NO"! This whole episode only proves the
weakness of Rajaram's argument, but doesn't in anyway undermine the various
questions raised against the "Aryan Theory".

But if my guess is right, our comrades will use this opportunity to damn the
whole attempt at questioning their version of history. They will use this to
justify the AIT, the existance of Dravidian as a seperate entity apart from
the "Aryan" etc

And in this they have the support of "researchers" like S Farmer etc. I am
curious to know what exactly his motivation in this whole matter is?
According to his earlier posts he is not even an Indologist and was only
interested in Indian history in relation to other cultures. But now it looks
like he has turned full time Indologist! So what motivated him to join
forces with M Witzel and spend so much time in refuting Rajaram?

I hope you won't dish out the "integrity and truth" routine to me ... I'm
too cynical to believe in such! Or is it RZ's "love of polemic" that has you
so interested in Indology?

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From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN  Fri Sep 29 05:24:53 2000
From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 10:54:53 +0530
Subject: publisher's catalogue
Message-ID: <161227061951.23782.10545967119898422997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If you are asking a publisher for their catalogue,does the whole world need to know?
Rajesh Kochhar




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 29 11:47:00 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 11:47:00 +0000
Subject: Info on WArrier
Message-ID: <161227061954.23782.9214723930143048575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Would anybody have any information on the caste affiliations/profession of
the WArriers? I hear they represent a small group in Kerala. And is there
any such parallel caste in Tamil Nadu - KripAnandavAriAr?
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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 29 18:51:55 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 11:51:55 -0700
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061969.23782.534415986954864595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>"A classical language is a language with an ancient literature of
>> outstanding quality that through a considerable period of time has played
>> an important part in the history, literature and culture of several peoples
>> that otherwise may use different mother tongues."

>It is not really my intention to disqualify Tamil as a classical language
>according to my own definition! I have no competence in Tamil, and I simply
>didn't know to what extent it was used outside Tamilnad. Whether Tamil fits
>my definition or not is something I must leave to others to decide! :-)

 Let me cite another example. European missionaries translated the Bible
 into Tamil, a first among Indian languages. Because of this, many churches
 outside Tamilnad proper have employed Tamil in their services historically
 even when the attendees may not be ethnic Tamils.





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From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Sep 29 18:56:10 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 11:56:10 -0700
Subject: Archaeology of India between 3000 BC and 600 BC
Message-ID: <161227061971.23782.7509562851452000345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Narayan R. Joshi" <giravani at JUNO.COM> wrote:
> Are there any
> archaeological excavations and/or discoveries that could fill up the gap
> between 600 BC and 3000 BC? For example who were in the south India when
> the Jewish king Soloman (900BC to 1000BC)had trade contract with Indian
> king or kings?Just saying that there were Aryan people or Dravidian people
> or mixture of both does not tell us anything.Portraying the picture of the
> ancient Indian civilization in one way or in another way makes no sense
> without the sufficient archaeological excavations.

 A problem is that archaeological excavations by themselves do not make
 it explicit about the languages behind those cultures.


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From torfats at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Sep 29 11:59:10 2000
From: torfats at HOTMAIL.COM (ravindran sri)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 11:59:10 +0000
Subject: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061956.23782.13458232006945110705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Conspiracy by the Rotarians, Rosiscurians, Templars, Siddhas (not all),
Theosophists, the Kanchi Mutt, Madurai AAdheenam, The Hindu, Heidelberg
Order of the Rose, Arya Samaj, The Sangh Parivar(ofcourse!)
, Dinamani, The Society of the Order of Bath, The D.K, DPI, Strikers 1842,
Order of the Dragons, Sirens 1887, Thalians, Order of Osiris,
Knights of Ebony, Crewe of Don Quixote, La Luna Servante, Cowbellion de
Rakin, Order of Agrippa of Nattasheim, Max Mueller, Samuel Beckett,
Bakunin and others.

Why? Only to prevent the original "Seers" from completing their 'Mission' by
pushing their languages out of circulation and by establishing a new
hegemony of upstart languages like sanskrit and tamil.

-Ravi

>From: Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at GMX.LI>
>Reply-To: Indology <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>Subject: Re: Classical languages of India
>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:50:17 +0200
>
>Am 27 Sep 2000, um 22:08 schrieb ravindran sri:
>
> > Classical languages of India
> > Toda, Santhali, Mundari, Badaga, [...]
> >
> > Ofcourse people would say Tamil,Sanskrit etc. (which is an Orientalist
> > conspiracy!)
>
>Another evil conspiracy? By whom, and why?
>
>'Classical' does not mean the same as 'ancient' or 'attested since
>very old times'. Furthermore, that something is not 'classical' does
>*not* mean that it is not worth serious scholarly attention. (Perhaps
>this needs to be mentioned here.)
>
>RZ
>
>Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
>Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik
>Universit?t M?nchen
>Tel. (089) 2180-5782
>E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de

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From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Fri Sep 29 19:23:16 2000
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 12:23:16 -0700
Subject: Info on WArrier
Message-ID: <161227061972.23782.5713475548250360612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

vAriyars are one of several castes or groups collectively called
"ambalavaasi".  As this name implies,  they are associated with the temples
and are involved in various activities.  I believe one of the vAriyars'
traditional responsibilities is the collection of flowers,  making garlands
etc.  NambiyArs are another group who are classified as "ambalavaasi" (only by
some ?) -  they have a more prescribed "ritual" role in that only they can
play the mizhavu drum in the temple for KoodiyATTam,  cAkyar kUttu
performances,  and their womenfolk called Nangyars can take on female
character roles in the kUttu performances.  I am not sure if cAkyars,  who are
traditionally the sole custodians of KoodiyATTam,  are also included under the
"ambalavaasi" category.

The vAriyar OS is of the unthreaded variety,  while cAkyar OS is threaded ;-)

-Srini.

ps:  KripAnanda vAriyAr,  in one corpozhivu,  mentioned that he hailed from
the Arcot district (N or S ? Kankeyanallur?) and mentioned that there are
vAriyArs in Kerala... but didn't explicitly say that his group or family was
or was not related to the Kerala vAriyars.

nanda chandran wrote:

> Would anybody have any information on the caste affiliations/profession of
> the WArriers? I hear they represent a small group in Kerala. And is there
> any such parallel caste in Tamil Nadu - KripAnandavAriAr?
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From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Sep 29 12:01:24 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 14:01:24 +0200
Subject: SV: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061958.23782.12284518704676780524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

C.R. Selvakumar [SMTP:selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA] skrev 28. september
2000 23:28:
>     Even by your own definition, Tamil will eminently qualify as
>     classical language. I wonder what aspect of your definition
>     Tamil does not qualify !

It is not really my intention to disqualify Tamil as a classical language
according to my own definition! I have no competence in Tamil, and I simply
didn't know to what extent it was used outside Tamilnad. Whether Tamil fits
my definition or not is something I must leave to others to decide! :-)

>     Also I wonder whether you can cite Old Norse, Old German and
>     Anglo-Saxan English literature comparable to Tamil before
>     500 C.E. ? By this question, I don't imply that none exists, but
>     I would like to see some comparable literature cited for the Sangam
>     corpus (just the surving part) written by some 500 poets
>     (including many lady poets),

None of the languages mentioned here go further back than about a 1000 y
ears. Evidently, they are not as old as the Sangam literature. But that is
not relevant here: the main point is not age, but use and distribution. Old
Norse would have been a classical language according to my definition if it
had been used as a cultural vehicle by speakers who otherwise did not speak
Old Norse, not to mention that it would have been used for several
centuries after it "died" and even today like Classical Arabic. But that is
not the case. (I am not forgetting Islandic which is not germane to my
point).

>Laksmi Srivinas wrote:

>This suggestion seems to require, for a candidate
language to qualify as classical, an imperial context
whereby subject peoples use the language of the
imperial nuclear zone viz., Latin in the Roman Empire.

Not really. The Greeks hardly had an empire (with the short-lived exception
of Alexander the Great). The extensive use of Greek in the Ancient world
was primarily due to cultural factors, and the same goes for Sanskrit. With
Arabic and Latin, there are of course imperial connections!

>I hope that you do not require that a language be well
and truly dead for it to qualify as a Classical
language. This was another one of the arguments
advanced against Tamil's claims to being a Classical
language.

This argument is slightly muddled. Obviously, the Tamil of today must be
somewhat different from Old Tamil, which would be the Classical version of
Tamil. Notice that Classical Arabic is till written, although the modern
Arabic dialects are as different as the Romance languages (or even more
different for all I know!) But classical languages are invariably *old*. A
classical language is used for centuries on end, long after people have
ceased to speak it in everyday life.

>Venkatraman Iyer wrote:

>The definition given today for a classical language
will only suit for invaders like Arabic or Sanskrit or Persian
or Greek. Quoting from memory, A.K.Ramanujan wrote
that "after all a language is nothing but a dialect with
an army".

This is not quite correct, as I have stated above. But let me point to a
Classical Language in the making: English. English now fullfils a number of
the features I mentioned: it is used by people all over the world, and
although there is an imperial connection to some extent, this connection is
not the main reason why English is turning into a classical language. The
main reason is the economic power and cultural attraction of the United
States of America, which means that we are all becoming americanized
(whether we like it or not). At the same time, spoken English both in
America and Great Britain continues to develop. Give English a couple of
centuries, and I'll bet you won't be able to understand its spoken form
whereas you probably can go on reading it with few problems. (This thought
experiment assumes that you live for 200 years, which is the sort of
assumption one can use in thought experiments :-)).

Best regards,

Lars Martin


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From ersand at HUM.KU.DK  Fri Sep 29 14:17:56 2000
From: ersand at HUM.KU.DK (Erik Sand)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 14:17:56 +0000
Subject: Pischel Article
In-Reply-To: <001101c02928$7d530f80$5ccbe182@asien713>
Message-ID: <161227061959.23782.17004366984832244218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

K?re Ulrich!

Pr?v Carsten Niebuhr instituttet i Leifsgade. Der er en god chance for, at
de har den.


Med venlig hilsen

Erik Reenberg Sand

At 10:45 AM 9/28/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>I am looking for a photocopy of an article by Pischel in Zeitschrift der
Deutschen Morgenl?ndischen Gesellschaft, vol. 35 1881 (old series),
probably on pp. 717-724.
>
>This issue is lacking in our national collection at the Royal Library of
Denmark.
>
>Could any one please send me a photocopy of these pages?
>
>Sincerely,
>Ulrich T. Kragh
>Department of Asian Studies
>University of Copenhagen
>Leifsgade 33
>2300 Copenhagen S
>Denmark
>




From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Fri Sep 29 13:44:31 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 14:44:31 +0100
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE - BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION
Message-ID: <161227061962.23782.7093137742197189419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think we are wasting a lot of time here going after Rajaram and not
making efforts in deciphering the Indus script . Rajaram possibly has done
wrong, if he intentionally tried to falsify things . It does not mean we go
on crucifying some one.

I posted on my web about the Migration of Indus People where the
decipherment by Pathak and Verma was mentioned . It was a genuine work on
decipherment . I did not see any one intending to pursue on that line.

It is an interesting problem for those linguists who take the decipherment
seriously . That work shows that Indus people went every where, not only to
South India which many think.

I believe that the Indus Valley civilization is a at the substratum of
entire India, and not any particular region.

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Fri Sep 29 14:26:31 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 15:26:31 +0100
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE - BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION
Message-ID: <161227061964.23782.817518000222612325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Kak, Frawley and Feuerstein mention in their book that cryptological theory
(with assumptions that they do not state in the book ) shows that for the
Indus script, a minimum string of 20 characters is required to be able to
demonstrate a decipherment ( I guess, "beyond reasonable doubt").

I do not understand the result or the assumptions necessary to derive it.
I imagine that their assumptions include that the language is Sanskrit-like.
I think the results mean that an incorrect decipherment can map short
strings to valid Sanskrit words and phrases with high probability (e.g.,
Rajaram-Jha) and only beyond a certain string length is an incorrect
decipherment likely to be unable to decipher the string to valid Sanskrit.

With more general assumptions, I imagine an even longer text is required to
establish a decipherment.

-arun gupta




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Fri Sep 29 14:54:49 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 15:54:49 +0100
Subject: Horseplay in Harappa
Message-ID: <161227061965.23782.8113142588078780448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Professor Farmer :

I notice that you call Romila Thapar an eminent Indian historian on your
web-page.

Romila Thapar along with other JNU historians issued a statement about a
decade ago, regarding the Babri Masjid dispute. In that statement they cite
the Babarnamah as evidence that Babur did not demolish any temple in
Ayodhya.  What they failed to mention was that there is a break in Babur's
diary, pages are missing.  On April 2nd, 1528 we have Babur in and around
Ayodhya.  His account for April 2 is incomplete.  The diary resumes from
Sep. 18, 1528.  These facts are very clear in the Beveridge translation of
Babarnamah that these historians cited.

In my opinion, the mendacity of that statement and its consequences are as
great as that of Rajaram's horse-seal. The statement was issued with an
intent to mislead the public.

-arun gupta




From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA  Fri Sep 29 22:47:11 2000
From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 00 18:47:11 -0400
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061974.23782.18039838955059347799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'
'>'>     Grammatical works like Tholkaappiyam,
'>'>     musical works etc. There are no works like Thevaaram and Thiruvaasagam
'>'>     and Alvaar's songs in Sanskrit.
'>'
'>'No works at all in Sanskrit? This is the other extreme of the linguistic
'>'politics that plagues contemporary Indian thinking. Apparently, praise for
'>'Tamil literature can only be at the
'>'expense of Sanskrit literature and vice versa.

    If you know of some Sanskrit works around 700 C.E or earlier
    like ThEvAram (philosophical, devotional, and set to
    classical *music*), I would be delighted to hear and
    correct my opinion. ThEvAram, Alvaar's songs and ThiruvAsagam
    are quite unique in my understanding. It is possible that
    I'm mistaken.
    Irrespective of the fact whether Sanskrit does or does not
    have such literature, don't you think that the existence of
    these beautiful Tamil songs (the saivite literature alone has more than
    18,000 songs set to music plus the 4000 Vaishnavite songs)
    along with many other works in Tamil
    should qualify Tamil as a classical language?
    Is that not the issue ?
    I never disputed the fact that Sanskrit is a classical language
    (and that is not the issue here) but
    my reference about a certain lack of a particular genre of literature
    in Sanskrit was only to highlight some unique characteristics of
    Tamil (praised as muttamiz (literature-music-dance)) medium .
    If you can point to Sanskrit literature set to various PaNs or Ragas
    that is elevating emotionally intellectually like ThEvAram I would
    appreciate it. I don't understand how my comment points to
    'extreme of the linguistic politics'! Did I say no works like TholkAppiyam
    exists in Sanskrit, or no epics like SilappathikAram exist in Skt ?
    No.

    C.R.Selvakumar
'>'
'>'Vidyasankar




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 30 09:02:02 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 09:02:02 +0000
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227061978.23782.2447514794688186925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I'm always sorry to find anyone too burned out to believe in
>"integrity and truth."

Yep, it is indeed very sad. But how can I help having such an attitude
when professional historians whom one would expect to discuss issues
objectively with courtesy, get down to gutter level polemic, personal
slanging and vindictive abuse? Even common courtesy demands one to
refrain from kicking somebody who's down.

And to top it you've to go out of your way to publish your "discovery"
in some leftist magazine!

>Comparative historians by definition deal
>with more than one civilization. Are you telling me that Indology
>is out of bounds? By the way, I've certainly conducted enough
>historical research, held enough post-docs, research grants,
>university teaching positions, and produced enough scholarly
>works (including a recent 595-page book on premodern thought) not
>to have "researcher" put in question marks.

This more than anything else is what makes your attitude so
disappointing.

>Can I point out that Rajaram glorifies its destruction as the beginning of
>the resurgence of modern India?

Outside academic circles many Hindus indeed view it that way. That there's
no resentment by the Hindus of the iconoclastic fanaticism of Islam is
leftist propoganda. I'm a software engineer and in my field I've met quite a
few Hindus from Punjab, UP, MP etc who seeth with anger at the leftist
attempts to distort history. Traditionally it has always been known that
Islamic kings demolished temples in Ayhodhya and Mathura, the Kashi
Vishwanath in Varanasi etc. Even this leftist distortion has happened only
in the last few decades. I've an article of the Mahabodhi society written
sometime in the 1940s, where the author, a Sinhalese Buddhist, has little
doubt about the truth behind the Kashi Vishawnath temple.

The days of the Mughal empire are over. India is now a democratic country.
Let the truth about Islamic iconoclasm be known. Let the Hindus get back
what is rightfully theirs. Even here the Hindus do not even want all the
temples back, the thousands which were demolished to make way for the
mosques - only the really important ones - only 3 or 4 - the temples at
Mathura and Ayodhya, the Kashi Vishwanath etc - which are so integral a part
of the Hindu psyche - like the Vatican is to the Catholics. Surely this is a
reasonable demand! For this why should there be any violence at all?

That even this reasonable demand is not met only reflects the perverted
nature of Indian polity and the intelligensia who back it.

Here I've to clarify that I'm neither a member of the RSS nor affiliated to
any "Hindutva" organization - in the South of India where I come from, this
movement was virtually unknown until recently. It is only the hypocrisy and
the distortion of facts by the leftists who refuse to acknowledge the
sufferings of the Hindus under Islam, which makes me support the
HindutvavAdis.
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From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 30 16:41:07 2000
From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 09:41:07 -0700
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061997.23782.15424013056197898947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

  Having no expertise in  Tamil language or literature,
  why the keenness to disallow it being called classical?

  In the Hellenistic period, did not Greeks have colonies?
  What about centuries of portrayal of Persia as enemies
  and barbarians?

  Also, Sanskrit also spread by imperial design
  (Ref.: Pollock, Deep Orientalism).

  Best,
  Prasad

---------
"A classical language is a language with an ancient literature of
outstanding quality that through a considerable period of time has
played an important part in the history, literature and culture of
several peoples that otherwise may use different mother tongues."

This definition would include languages such as Greek, Latin, Arabic,
Persian, and Sanskrit as well as Classical Chinese. It would exclude
Tamil, Old Norse, Old German, Anglo-Saxon English etc. in spite of
the fact that these languages have old and venerable literatures.
Classical languages are normally used across time and space by
educated people and serve as link languages and carriers of ideas
with some claim to universality: e.g. Greek and Latin for
Christianity, Arabic for Islam, Sanskrit for Hinduism etc.

I offer myself up for criticism.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


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From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Sep 30 14:58:01 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 10:58:01 -0400
Subject: Rajaram FRONTLINE paper now online
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000093014240567@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227061993.23782.9538965339257716485.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As of today, the Frontline server has put
Steve Farmer's and my paper as well as
Romila Thapar's paper online,
both in normal http as well as in pdf format,c see:

http://www.frontlineonline.com/

directly:

http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1720/fl172000.htm



I have now added R. Thapar's paper to my own web site as well:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/RAJARAM/FRONTLINE.htm


Periodical updates on the question  (from the press, not: web chatter such
as our overnight initiation to communism, without guru and diksa, and
without long drawn-out candidacy as prospective party members!) can be
found at the end of:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm


Steve Farmer's site is:

http://www.safarmer.com/frontline




========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs




From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sat Sep 30 10:17:49 2000
From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 11:17:49 +0100
Subject: jantar-mantar
Message-ID: <161227061980.23782.473832858912382967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 28 Sep 2000, Rajesh Kochhar wrote:

> Anand M Sharan  says ,"He [Jaisingh}called his sundial-Jantar Manta".
> What is the basis of this statement. Where is it written or implied that =
> the name Jantar Mantar was used by Jaisingh himself.
> Rajesh Kochhar

All Jai Singh's instruments have names, and none is called Jantar-Mantar.
Jantar-Mantar in this context means 'observatory'.

Whether Jai Singh used 'Jantar-Mantar' to refer to any of his observatories will
depend on the original documents.

There is a lot of information in the book:

M F Soonawala, 'Maharaja Sawai Jai Singh II of Jaiapur and his observatories',
Jaipur Astronomical Society, Jaipur, n.d. [Foreword & Preface dated 1952].
Stated to be "Available from Vani Mandir, Sawai Man Singh Highway, Jaipur".

This book mentions that Jai Sing consulted with European astronomers, who came
to him by request.

On 28 Sep 2000, Robert Langston wrote:

> The astrological parks created by Jaisingh are quite beautiful.
> As I understand so far, the various instruments constructed by Jaisigh at
> Delhi, Jaipur, and Benares employed eminent astrologers of his time from
> both Hindu and Islamic schools. The primary concept he was going for was
> bigger is better -or at least more accurate.  Apparently, he either
> disregarded or was unaware of advances in  the West when these were made.
> Can any one shed light on this?(excuse the pun).

Tony Stone




From shelkv at SVM.ABU.SPB.RU  Sat Sep 30 09:04:27 2000
From: shelkv at SVM.ABU.SPB.RU (Vladimir Shelkovich)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 12:04:27 +0300
Subject: The Buddha's withdrawal into Parinirvana
In-Reply-To: <002e01c029d5$99855980$96000080@director>
Message-ID: <161227061976.23782.3362825638228525142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

    Dear colleagues, I would be most grateful if someone could help me with the following problem
concerning the Buddha's withdrawal into Nirvana:

  After going into a trance in order to enter Parinirvana, the Buddha followed a back-and-forth
motion, passing consecutively from the first stage of trance through the eighth, then passed again
through all the stages in reverse order from the eighth through the first and at last,
passing once more from the first to the fourth, he entered Parinirvana from the fourth stage
(The Maha-Parinibbana Suttanta,VI,11-13). The significance of the back-and-forth motion of the
Buddha on his way to Parinirvana is obvious, since it was his last trance.

    I was unable to find any interpretation of the back-and-forth motion of the Buddha and would
like to have the answers to the following questions:

  1) Did anyone, except the Buddha, go into Nirvana in such a way?

The cases of withdrawal into Nirvana which I know of started from the first stage of trance and
ended at the fourth, for instance, the case of Sariputta.

  2) Is there any interpretation of the last trance of the Buddha?

  3) Are there known any other rituals (may be, in other civilazations) connected with a specific
back-and-forth "motion": downwards-upwards-downwards-centre.

                         Vladimir Shelkovich

St. Petersburg, Russia, e-mail: shelkv at svm.abu.spb.ru

---
Vladimir Shelkovich (shelkv at svm.abu.spb.ru)
ABU
Sat, 30 Sep 100 11:55 +0300 MSK




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 30 12:07:55 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 12:07:55 +0000
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061985.23782.3179394084096787600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

'>'>'     Grammatical works like Tholkaappiyam,
'>'>'    musical works etc. There are no works like Thevaaram
'>'>'    and Thiruvaasagam
'>'>     and Alvaar's songs in Sanskrit.

TolkAppiyam is unique in its third part: the "poruL"
chapter where the poetics of sangam period is given.
The "uLLuRai", "iRaicci" are predecessors to the
dhvani theory of Anandavardhana et al., Dividing secular
life into akam/puRam divisions in unknown elsewhere.

I do not know any thing comparable to the bhakti corpus
of Tamil done so early and, which is behind the entire
bhakti mass movement of the whole India, as acknowledged by
Sanskrit sources themselves.

Sincerely,
V. Iyer

>No works at all in Sanskrit? This is the other extreme of the linguistic
>politics that plagues contemporary Indian thinking. Apparently, praise for
>Tamil literature can only be at the
>expense of Sanskrit literature and vice versa.


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From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 30 12:32:59 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 12:32:59 +0000
Subject: Indus age (was: Re: RAJARAM EPISODE - BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION)
Message-ID: <161227061987.23782.15837852848485671487.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Sharan wrote:
>I believe that the Indus Valley civilization is a at the substratum
>of entire India, and not any particular region.

Sure. But how to account for the Dravidian which occupied a low status
in the eyes of Sanskrit texts in early times (Cf. Manu) and,
has increasingly contributed to the development of Sanskrit?
Both in terms of *syntax* and *loanwords* which features steadily
increase from Rgveda to Vedic and Epic material. Linguists
like Emeneau and Deshpande have proposed Dravidian bilinguals
co-opting and eventually going for a language shift to Indo-Aryan
languages. In this very list, it is made clear over the years
that Aryans and their languages immigrated into India after
the decline of Indus age and, Vedic culture is not the
high culture of Harappans. Of the two attested clasical
languages of India, Tamil obtains a very good chance once
Sanskrit is ruled out for Harappan high culture.
But there are all kinds of attempts to explain away Dravidian
from the Indus civilization. One reason is that
not many in the academia, both in India and the West, do not
read Tamil and other Dravidian literatures.

Regards,
V. Iyer



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From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA  Sat Sep 30 11:55:13 2000
From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 12:55:13 +0100
Subject: POST-INDUS VALLEY INDIA
Message-ID: <161227061981.23782.10190654536378402467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This era lasts between 3000 to 600 BCE or 1900 to 600 BCE . There are very
few hard evidences existing in this period, which possibly was the reason
Joshi  was enquiring about .  Since the Indus Valley civilization was a
magnificent civilization, how could this civilization vanish ? The next
event in the Indian History is the starting of the 16 Janpads in NOrth
India. There are cultural developments in Tamilnadu as we see evidences on
this web site .  The question of who these Santhals were , was not settled
until recently ( Pathak and Verma's book  which provides actual evidence
that they migrated from the Indus Valley - hence to North India ) . Similar
signs were also found in South India .

The Proto Dravidian Indus Valley theory ( number 1 ), and Kak, et al, have
come up with  another one that Indus People moved to the Ganga Yamuna belt
( number two ) , makes one is puzzled .

I believe that there is truth in both of them and it reminds me of Syadvaad
which is theory propounded by the Jains . My understanding of Syaadvaad is
that the actual truth is a composite of all . It is like eight blind men
touching various parts of an elephant , wanted to tell what an elephant
was .

Thanks.

Anand M. Sharan




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Sat Sep 30 11:57:15 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 13:57:15 +0200
Subject: SV: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227061983.23782.12826038990494806737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

nanda chandran [SMTP:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. september 2000 11:02:
> Yep, it is indeed very sad. But how can I help having such an attitude
> when professional historians whom one would expect to discuss issues
> objectively with courtesy, get down to gutter level polemic, personal
> slanging and vindictive abuse? Even common courtesy demands one to
> refrain from kicking somebody who's down.

I assume you are talking about Rajaram, and I take exception to this
attempt to present him as an underdog. I have followed Rajaram's polemics
in the Organiser for a year, and he is a ruthless propagandist and vicious
hatemonger who deserves firm and determined opposition. He is also
representative of a set of attitudes that cries at you from every page of
the Organiser, so attacking Rajaram's views is not simply a matter of
attacking him, it is also an attack on a whole set of political thinking.
Discrediting these views is every decent person's duty. Rajaram and his
fellow travellers are trying to take India and Indians everywhere down a
road that can only lead to social catastrophe and disgrace. It has happened
before in Europe, and it should not be allowed to happen in India.

> Outside academic circles many Hindus indeed view it that way. That
there's
> no resentment by the Hindus of the iconoclastic fanaticism of Islam is
> leftist propoganda.

I don't know who said this, but Muslim iconoclasm is well known. What
happened in India during the medieval period is also well known, noone has
tried to hide or deny it, at least not in the West. What Rajaram and his
ilk are trying to do, is to revive ancient conflicts and instrumentalize
them for their own political purposes, which essentially is a matter of
retaining a revamped version of the old society with the upper castes in
firm control. Unfortunately, the way to Hell is clogged with people trying
to profit politically from ancient conflicts. In Europe, the former
Yugoslavia is only the most recent example of this. Is this what you want
for India? A society tearing itself to shreds in order to take revenge on
past injustices and preserve the privileges of the privileged? I would
suggest that you drop the hints about your opponents being "communists" and
"leftists". There is a vast political space between communism and fascism,
and most of belong there, not at the fringes.

> The days of the Mughal empire are over. India is now a democratic
country.
> Let the truth about Islamic iconoclasm be known. Let the Hindus get back
> what is rightfully theirs. Even here the Hindus do not even want all the
> temples back, the thousands which were demolished to make way for the
> mosques - only the really important ones - only 3 or 4 - the temples at
> Mathura and Ayodhya, the Kashi Vishwanath etc - which are so integral a
part
> of the Hindu psyche - like the Vatican is to the Catholics. Surely this
is a
> reasonable demand! For this why should there be any violence at all?

And why should you reopen old wounds and pour salt in them? Surely, peace
and prosperity for the majority of Indians is more important than centuries
old conflicts and "putting right" ancient injustices. 300 years ago,
substantial Norwegian territories were ceded to Sweden after a war. We do
not try to take them back. It wouldn't be worth the trouble. Peace,
prosperity and good neighbourlyness are more important values that  a few
thousand square kilometers. What India needs is a new tolerance, which
means that leaders, both Hindu and Muslim, must work for mutual
understanding and peaceful solutions, not drag each other down into the
morrass of infighting and mutual terror through discrimination and
provocation.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone: +47 22 32 12 19
Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45
Fax 1:  +47 22 32 12 19
Fax 2:  +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax)
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Sep 30 13:05:07 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 14:05:07 +0100
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227061988.23782.11861491905333031438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am of the opinion that any academic, actual or aspiring, who deliberately
misleads should be pilloried in public.  So Professors Farmer and Witzel have
done the right thing.

-arun gupta




From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sat Sep 30 13:24:05 2000
From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 14:24:05 +0100
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227061990.23782.2945595193723973154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Regarding Ms. Romila Thapar and her JNU colleagues,
I find that Koenraad Elst, in his "Ayodhya and After",
writes that the indologist Dr. Iravatham Mahadevan
in a lecture in Madras on December 4, 1990 (as reported
by the Indian Express) held the JNU historians guilty
of the political abuse of history.

Regarding tarring and feathering these academics,
I find that it has already been done in Arun Shourie's
book "Eminent Historians: Their Technology, Their
Line, Their Fraud".  See, for example,

http://www.secularindia.com/leftdistortsArunShourie.htm

So, I do not think I have to say more on this.

Regarding the Frontline article, I was a little disappointed
in that it did not touch upon that issue, which in me,
reawoke interest in the events of 2000 BC, and that is the
possible connections between the dried up Ghaggar/Hakra/Sarasvati,
the Sarasvati river in the Rig Veda and the Sarasvati river in
the Mahabharata.  Are these three actually one and the same,
and, if so, how does it fit in the chronology.  Maybe, they will
address it in a follow-up article.

There is also a potential confusion for some readers :

Quote :

A second finding pertains to shared loan words in the Rigveda and Zoroastrian
texts referring to agricultural products, animals, and domestic goods that we
know from archaeology first appeared in Bactria-Margiana c. 2100-1700 BCE.
These include, among others, words for camel (uSTra/ushtra), donkey (khara
xara), and bricks (iSTakaa/ishtiia, ishtuua).

End quote.

As a picture accompanying the article clearly shows, the Harappans had bricks
long before 2100 BCE, so one has to do a second take on the first sentence.

-arun gupta




From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Sat Sep 30 20:00:49 2000
From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 15:00:49 -0500
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
In-Reply-To: <9408.970341530@www21.gmx.net>
Message-ID: <161227062002.23782.2627456011126308484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The comments below are not specifically directed at Nanda Chandran or 
at Robert Zydenbos.  I must ask the two for their indulgence and 
understanding.

I have been watching the growing altercation following in the 
aftermath of Rajaram's obviously ill-established claims, and I am 
getting progressively irritated by the shrillness and the 
increasingly pervasive holier-than-thou attitude on all too many of 
the sides to the debate.

I am also heartened by occasional requests for civility and for calls 
for impartially investigating and questioning *all* claims, whether 
by past or present Indologists (whose attitudes on race and power 
clearly are not monolithic and unchanging), by leftists or 
progressives (who, again, show great variation and change), or 
nationalists and rightists of various extremes (among whom, too, 
there is no full unanimity). I would very much hope that this 
universally-critical attitude will prevail on our list.  In fact, 
closer examination readily shows up problems in virtually every 
corner (except, of course, one's own?).

Ultimately, what should concern us on this list is, not political and 
ideological stances (which tend to change constantly), but a search 
for truth, however elusive it may be.  In this context it may be well 
to remember that even people whose politics and ideology we disagree 
with may have valid points (something which sometime back Elst and 
Zydenbos seemed to agree on), and also that just because one or 
another piece of evidence in favor of one or another hypothesis turns 
out to be problematic, this does not necessarily invalidate that 
hypothesis.

If we fail to introduce more civility and impartiality we will not 
only talk past each other, we will actually be providing aid and 
comfort to those we are trying to combat, by creating the appearance 
that it's simply one ideologically-based and problematic approach 
opposing another one.  As the case of the vituperative verbal (and 
physical) battles in pre-Nazi Germany shows, under such circumstances 
there is a common tendency for people to favor their own, right-wing 
brand of (perceived) extremism, rather than one that can be branded 
as "foreign"; and the consequences can be disastrous.

Having gotten this off my chest, I will sit back and return to 
observing--and, if the "flavor" of the list's discourse does not 
improve, I may have to decide to unsubscribe.

Best wishes,

Hans Henrich Hock

yo asyaadhyakSaH parame vyomantso aNga veda yadi vaa na veda



>Am 30 Sep schrieb nanda chandran:
>
> > Likewise we're not asking back territory from Pakistan. Let us just have
> > our most important temples back.
>
>Perhaps that overwhelming Hindu majority could consider returning all the
>Jaina and Buddhist structures to their erstwhile owners first, before raving
>about what the Muslims later did to brahminical structures? Why such a
>partisan attitude? (Sorry if the desire for 'truth and integrity' in 
>some of us,
>which you expressly say not to believe in, asks such questions.)
>
> > If you're unable to understand our standpoint, I do not blame you. Mere
> > knowledge of Sanskrit or Indian literature does not make one a Hindu
> > nor will it enable you to truly understand the Hindu mind.
>
>You should know perfectly well that your attitudes are not representative
>of the whole of Hindudom - fortunately not. We know enough about India to
>know that this kind of noisy polemic is insulting to a good many persons who
>consider themselves Hindu. It is also insulting to our intelligence. If you
>wish to be taken seriously, please stop this kind of writing.
>
>RZ
>
>
>--
>Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
>Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik
>Universit?t M?nchen
>E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de
>
>Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 30 16:24:15 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 16:24:15 +0000
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227061995.23782.3423077952220506055.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Rajaram and his fellow travellers are trying to take India and Indians
>everywhere down a road that can only lead to social catastrophe and
>disgrace. It has happened before in Europe, and it should not be allowed to
>happen in India.

I'm glad that your concern is not political. But why pick
Rajaram alone for this? If the colonists and the leftists hadn't
distorted history according to their political needs, a Rajaram
would never have arisen today. If your concern is indeed genuine
why not officially slam Max Muller and Romila Thapar and her ilk
and help shape a non-biased version of Indian history?

>I don't know who said this, but Muslim iconoclasm is well known. What
>happened in India during the medieval period is also well known, noone has
>tried to hide or deny it, at least not in the West.

If what you say is true there would have never been a problem
with Ayodhya in the first place. But as somebody recently pointed
out the leftist establishment went out of their way to deny it.
So why don't you condemn them? Why is S Farmer going ga-ga about
Romila Thapar's endorsement of their "discovery"?

>What Rajaram and his ilk are trying to do, is to revive ancient conflicts
>and instrumentalize them for their own political purposes, which
>essentially is a matter of retaining a revamped version of the old society
>with the upper castes in firm control.

Let's not jump from one topic to the other. Let's concentrate on
the Hindu-Muslim conflict. And please refrain from making uninformed
accusations about matters where you've little knowledge of. That
the BJP's new chief is a Dalit and it was this party which first
protested against the "purification" ceremony in Guruvaayoor temple
recently is itself enough to dismiss your allegations.

>Unfortunately, the way to Hell is clogged with people trying
>to profit politically from ancient conflicts. In Europe, the former
>Yugoslavia is only the most recent example of this. Is this what you want
>for India? A society tearing itself to shreds in order to take revenge on
>past injustices and preserve the privileges of the privileged?

Now you have made my hair stand up! It has become quite fashionable to
draw parallels between the facist and racist movements in Europe and
what's currently happening in India. Before you let your imagination
run wild, atleast make an effort to understand what the conflict in
India is about.

Forget even this! Help us get a unbiased version of history and Rajaram
and Co (if they're indeed as bad as you make them out to be) will not
have any cause to fight for. Ignoring the main problem and taking
potshots at Rajaram isn't going to help India.

>And why should you reopen old wounds and pour salt in them? Surely, peace
>and prosperity for the majority of Indians is more important than centuries
>old conflicts and "putting right" ancient injustices.

This is the typical leftist argument - isn't food and material properity
more important than all these?

That the soul needs its own nourishment is something beyond the ken of
Marxists. But who can blame them when their master himself, though claiming
to be a student of "that mighty thinker", didn't have the intellect to go
beyond Hegel's dialectic!

>300 years ago, substantial Norwegian territories were ceded to Sweden after
>a war. We do not try to take them back.

Likewise we're not asking back territory from Pakistan. Let us just have
our most important temples back.

If you're unable to understand our standpoint, I do not blame you. Mere
knowledge of Sanskrit or Indian literature does not make one a Hindu
nor will it enable you to truly understand the Hindu mind.

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From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Sep 30 18:38:29 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 18:38:29 +0000
Subject: SV: Classical languages of India
Message-ID: <161227061998.23782.10623649991513112809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The "uLLuRai", "iRaicci" are predecessors to the
>dhvani theory of Anandavardhana et al., Dividing secular
>life into akam/puRam divisions in unknown elsewhere.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the tevAram and the prabandham
poems are not secular in intent or origin. If you say that
they reveal aspects of secular life, the same can be said of
the Sanskrit purANas too. And do remember the predecessor
to works of Anandavardhana and abhinavagupta among the Skt
sources of aesthetics, namely the nATyaSAstra. This text must
be of contemporaneous origin as compared to the older stratum
of Tamil sources.

Every language enthusiast "finds" that there is nothing in
any other language to compare with the literature of his own
favorite one. There was a well-known British colonial who once
wrote that the entire literature of the Indian people was not
worth a page of that produced in Europe. That aside, my only
question is, why is the question of Indian classical languages
always cast in terms of Sanskrit VS. Tamil? Why not Sanskrit
AND Tamil? If denying classical language status to Tamil
reveals an ignorance of Tamil texts, don't you think that
those on the other side of the debate often reveal their
ignorance of Sanskrit sources?

Regards,
Vidyasankar
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From zydenbos at GMX.LI  Sat Sep 30 19:18:50 2000
From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 21:18:50 +0200
Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE
Message-ID: <161227062000.23782.7017211591343316060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Am 30 Sep schrieb nanda chandran:

> Likewise we're not asking back territory from Pakistan. Let us just have
> our most important temples back.

Perhaps that overwhelming Hindu majority could consider returning all the
Jaina and Buddhist structures to their erstwhile owners first, before raving
about what the Muslims later did to brahminical structures? Why such a
partisan attitude? (Sorry if the desire for 'truth and integrity' in some of us,
which you expressly say not to believe in, asks such questions.)

> If you're unable to understand our standpoint, I do not blame you. Mere
> knowledge of Sanskrit or Indian literature does not make one a Hindu
> nor will it enable you to truly understand the Hindu mind.

You should know perfectly well that your attitudes are not representative
of the whole of Hindudom - fortunately not. We know enough about India to
know that this kind of noisy polemic is insulting to a good many persons who
consider themselves Hindu. It is also insulting to our intelligence. If you
wish to be taken seriously, please stop this kind of writing.

RZ


--
Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos
Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik
Universit?t M?nchen
E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de

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