Hinduism

[Dominik Wujastyk]

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briefer in your replies.



On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote:

> Yaroslav Vassilkov wrotes :
>
> >If you only take trouble to look into some Hindu sacred texts, such as,
> >e.g., PurANas, you would find that, according to them, Lord NArAyana took
> >his Buddha avatar for only one reason: to tempt the sinners and heretic
> >with
> >the worst possible, false doctrine and in this way make sure that they will
> >not escape hell. Do you mean it is in this particular way the Buddhism was
> >developed and sustained by the Hindus?
>
> According to some "sacred" texts, say like the Padma PurAna even
> Advaita is not actually VedAnta. Does this mean that this reflects
> the whole "Hindu" view of Advaita, a school which enjoys the greatest
> following amongst all such schools in BhArath?
>
> Take the Devi BhAratam for instance : According to it the Lord took
> the form of the Buddha to put a stop to the slaughter of animals in
> the name of Vedic sacrifices. It even accuses the brAhmanas of
> deliberately misinterpreting the shruti, to satisfy their gluttony!
> Does this justify your position?
>
> The influence of Buddhism on Advaita itself is well known. The founder
> AchArya repeatedly salutes the compassionate one in his MAndUkya KArikA. Or
> take Advaitins like Sri Harsha who openly acknowledges his indebtness to
> MAdhyamaka dialectic. Or Citsukha, a VedAntin, who comes to the rescue of
> the MAdhyamaka concept of Samvritti against KumArilla's attacks. Or
> KumArilla himself, the champion of Vedic orthodoxy and BrAhminism, asserting
> that Buddhist texts should be considered as authoritative.
>
> So do all this justify your position that "Hinduism" only had negative
> value for the Buddha? Every cult/religious belief in India has it own
> sectarian prejudices and so will interpret/misinterpret texts/spiritual
> teachers according to their beliefs. Just because of one or two such views
> we cannot immediately generalize it as relevant to the entire set of cults
> in BhArath. As I said it is best to give up the notion of "Hindu" which
> represents all the cults and religious practices of BhArath.
>
> Forget all these texts which are anyway read by a small minority of the
> entire Hindu population : in my house, a traditional smartha brahmin house,
> whatever ShankarAchArya might say still the Buddha has always been looked up
> to as a symbol of purity, compassion and holiness. This, I would guess, is
> the general "Hindu" view of the Buddha.
>
> S Hodge writes :
>
> >As far as I can see, you have inverted the original point.  If Hindus
> >want to group themselves with Buddhists, that is fine by me although
> >there would perhaps arise some problems in those areas where Buddhism
> >differs (as you are well aware in view of your other msg today) from
> >Hindu beliefs.
>
> Like what? If the differences in philosophy is what you're talking about
> I don't think you've understood the point I was trying to make.
>
> >But don't be surprised if some Buddhists -- Asian or Western are not
> >entirely happy about being grouped by Hindus with Hindus -- with no
> >disrespect intended towards Hinduism.
>
> As far as I can see, Ven Tantra, an Asian Buddhist has no problem. Quite a
> few of the SinhAla Buddhist monks that I've met can't stop singing praises
> about India's contribution to culture and religion and also claim to be
> historically from India. And from what I read many Asians dream about being
> born in India during the time of the future Buddha. So I doubt if there's a
> problem on the Asian side.
>
> Ok, you say there's no disrespect intended. So if you are a Buddhist,
> what makes you so reluctant to identify with the people of the land of
> your religion's origin?
>
> >I was talking
> >to one Hindu recently who thought that Buddhism is a montheistic
> >religion in which each individual has a personal soul -- which doesn't
> >sound like any Buddhism I have encountered.
>
> I won't bring up the Vastiputriya school. Anyway ignorance of metaphysical
> tenets, is hardly an indicator of animosity or lack of affiliation towards
> the religion. For that matter of the whole smartha population only a small
> percentage are knowlegable about the metaphysical aspects of Advaita - that
> doesn't mean that they don't belong to the tradition.
>
> >Yes, and you are being a little disengenuous about the purpose of this
> >avataaram as another subscriber has pointed out -- or perhaps his
> >comment does not count since he is an outsider Westerner.
>
> I hope that I've clarified this point in my reply to Prof. Vassilkov. And
> I've already clarified that I didn't mean "outsider" that way. And let me
> also make it clear that I'm not arguing for the sake of argument. If that's
> your intention, let me know and I'll desist from further posts on the
> subject. My aim is to primarily refute the common opinion that Hinduism is
> antognistic/alien to Buddhism. I've my own reasons for this stand and am
> willing to discuss it with anybody who's interested in having a sincere
> discussion.
>
> >Because all living Buddhists are "second-generation" (even if Asian) does
> >that somehow reduce the value of their transmission of the Dharma?
>
> Maybe not, but still the original cultural baggage would be lacking. I've to
> remind you that our discussion is not about the quality of teaching imparted
> by Asian monks, but rather the "ties" to India which would have been an
> integral part of the original proslytization by Indian monks.
>
> >Out of interest, what status do you ascribe to Buddhist monks in Srilanka?
> >Are they "Indian" by your definition ?  Would they be an acceptable
> >substitute for the now extinct monks from the mainland ?
>
> That Sri Lanka didn't get it from the Buddha himself and the religion was
> spread in the land by an official mission by Ashoka some two hundred years
> later makes some difference.
>
> Also if you take the philosophical development of Buddhist thought, Lanka
> has hardly made a significant contribution - almost the entire chunk of
> Buddhist philosophy was developed on the mainland. Why is this so? Maybe the
> lack of brahmins in Lanka?
>
> Also, the Buddha is the symbol of compassion - vegetarianism at the
> practical level - in India. A NyAya author from Bengal infacts rebukes
> South Indian brahmins for being too Buddhistic in embracing vegetarianism.
> Ashoka is remembered in India for having passed an order in favor of
> vegetarianism in his whole realm. But neither the lay Sinhalese nor the
> Buddhist monks themselves are vegetarian. So all this does make a
> difference.
>
> >I do not intend this to sound discourteous, but what is you actual
> >experience of Buddhist practitioners (NOT academics) in the West ?
>
> I've met quite a few MahAyAna and TheravAda practitioners in the US.
> Apart from those, who seemed more attracted for the novelty value
> - oriental clothes, food, figurines, incenses etc, the serious ones
> seemed to be those cerebrally inclined and I don't think there's anything
> wrong with it. What I'm trying to say is that the "devout" section, which
> would represent the great mass of Asian practitioners - is missing in the
> West. Infact I would think this section is what represents the majority of
> Christian practitioners in the West. This I guess is what comes of a
> "natural" religious acceptance, the way Christianity has been accepted in
> the West.
>
> See, why would anybody in the West give up Christianity and take up
> Buddhism? Christianity gives you everything Buddhism has to offer from
> the religious standpoint - compassion, morality, salvation, God etc
> Infact with Christianity you also have the exclusive clause which infact
> gives the follower a special status in contrast to non-believers. So why
> give it up and embrace Buddhism? If not for its philosophical value - the
> cerebral factor, I cannot see any other reason. In few cases the techniques
> in meditation and compassion too might be a factor : in a MahAyAna centre in
> San Francisco, an old American lady practitioner embraced me for being Hindu
> - because that translated as "vegetarian" to her. But apart from these I
> don't see religious piety as a factor - in which case Christianity needn't
> be given up in the first place.
>
> Atleast this is my perception as to why Buddhism in the West is different
> from the way it is practiced in Asia. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>
> >On the contrary, that is exactly why many (but obviously not all)
> >Westerners are attracted to Buddhism in the first place as these
> >virtues are equally well exemplified in their non-Indian Asian
> >teachers !   Your concept of the appeal of the "rational" aspects of
> >Buddhism to Westerners seems to be based on the pre-1939 opinions of
> >early Western Buddhists -- a bit out of date ?
>
> Maybe.
>
> >[Snip]  I agree in general terms with your comments which followed but
> >I do feel you rather over-simplify the situation to suit your own
> >position.   We can return to that another time.
>
> Or are you over complicating issues to suit your own views? Anyway your
> objection would be more valid if you could explain why it is so simplistic?
>
> >If the Shakya polity inhabitants were of Tibeto-Burman stock, their
> >proximity to the culturally and spiritually superior lands to their
> >immediate south would have resulted in a desire to emulate various aspects
> >of those lands -- without necessarily lessening any intrinsic differences.
>
> But neither the Tibeteans nor the Burmese are known to have adopted
> "Hindu" names in their normal civilian mode - not in the monastic
> sense. So "Gautam SiddhArtha" being a non-Hindu is unlikely.
>
> >I know many Chinese people who have adopted Western "first-names" but they
> >still view themselves as Chinese first and formost.
>
> Proslytization of Christianity has different dimensions than the same
> with Buddhism. As I explained before in Buddhism there was very little
> cultural teaching - the teaching was mainly of the dharma and the
> MahAyAnists infact seem to have gone out of their way to accomodate
> their teachings with local beliefs and practices. On the contrary the
> proslytization of Christianity was used as a tool of imperialism by the
> colonists - to eradicate local cultures and spread the Western forms.
> Maybe as pointed out before, it is something related to the nature of
> the religion - Buddhism as an impersonal religion and Christianity as a
> personality cult.
>
> >So you really agree with me -- one can be a Buddhist without being a
> >Hindu !   Ask any Chinese Buddhist if they think they are really
> >crypto-Hindus and I think you will get only one reply.   If you think
> >they should be classed as Hindus that is up to you but is it not a
> >little presumptious for you to decide for them with first consulting
> >with them -- self-determination and all that stuff.
>
> I think we're losing focus. I'm only arguing that Indian Buddhism is
> Hindu. If Buddhists in other countries want to identify with Hindus,
> they can in the cultural and religious sense - like Ven Tantra. But
> if they like the Chinese want to view the term in its geographical
> dimension, that's not a problem too.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that it is not inappropriate for
> Buddhists anywhere to identify themselves as Hindu.
>
> >Please supply references for this claim -- I thought we had all agreed
> >that the term "Hindu" was primarily a late arrival on the scene.  Do
> >we have previously unnoticed early occurences of the term here ?   A
> >pretty revolutionary discovery !
>
> Please don't twist my words. Here when I used the word "Hindu" I only
> meant people who lived east to the Sindhu on the subcontinent. And
> Gautama was born in a kshatriya family on these people.
>
> For references you only have to see the overwhelming evidence in the
> Pali canon itself where Gautama takes pride in being "Arya" even in
> the racial sense on occasions. Also note the Buddhist effort in some
> texts to prove the superiority of kshatriyas over brahmins, because
> Gautama was a kshatriya. Also can you point to a single instance in
> any Buddhist work where Buddha is referred to as a "mleccha", which
> he would have been in a casteist environment, which it sure was during
> his time. Rather there are specific instances, where he is mocked
> at for being a "low born kshatriya".
>
> Also I think both the Tibeteans and the Sinhalese view the historical
> Buddha as a member of a royal Hindu kshatriya clan.
>
> >Please re-read your earlier statement to which I was replying.   I
> >think my comparison is perfectly adequate.
>
> Then I didn't understand it. Please explain.
>
> >Buddha's in-depth knowledge of brahmanical **philosophical**
> >systems.
> >Which might those be ?  ("Philosophical" highlighted by me)  Perhaps
> >it is a matter of definition, but I see the Upanishads to be less
> >philosophical than spiritual.
>
> Only in comparison to the later sutra literature. In the times preceding
> it was was the only "philosophical" literature available. Anyway in his
> discussion on various schools, he does show a more than casual knowledge of
> systems like the SAmkhya, Yoga, JainA etc
>
> >But no matter -- he gained "an in-depth
> >knowledge" by studying them -- but that still does not make him a
> >"Hindu".
>
> Except that it wasn't so easy for a foreigner to learn such stuff in
> India, where brahmins were extremely protective about such knowledge.
> So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers
> if he wasn't a dvija.
>
> >The Buddha's rejection of virtually all the key Upanishadic teachings is
> >apparent from a cursory reading of any number of Pali suttas.
>
> When the study is cursory perhaps. But an intense study will prove
> otherwise.
>
> >But have you not contradicted yourself here ?   Philosophy to me
> >implies reason but you said in your posting that this was not a
> >central feature of Buddhism:  ""Buddhism's stress on reason
> >wouldn't have been as important as the above mentioned factors (=
> >ethics and love). This would have appealed only to the intellectual
> >minority"".   I really get the feeling you want to have your cake and eat
> >it.
>
> And I get the feeling that all this is just argument for argument's
> sake without much factual substance. Anyway what's your level of
> knowledge on the subject - are you a professor or have you published
> something on the subject?
>
> And are you a follower of the TheravAda or the MahAyAna?
>
> And what's Lance Cousin's view on this subject? Is Gautama a "Hindu"
> kshatriya or not?
>
> Regarding Naga Ganesan's observation's on "Dravidian kinship", I would
> like to add that cross-cousin marraiges could have been abandoned by
> the "Aryan" folk over a period of time, just like eating meat was. Just
> because it is frowned upon at one point in time doesn't mean that it
> were never practiced earlier. Still as Vidhya pointed out it still might
> have been encouraged on certain situations:
> In Tamil Nadu, the VAthima brahmin community is well known for marrying
> strictly inside their own fold so as not to let their wealth out of their
> family circles. In my own family, I've heard of atleast one instance of
> cross cousin marraige.
>
> Another argument against Buddha being Dravidian/Tamil is the nature
> of his religion - it is the cerebrally inclined brahmanic way - the
> traditional jnaana or knowledge path of the Upanishads where self effort is
> of prime importance. In contrast the Dravidian religion all through its
> ancient history has consistently avoided this path - be it even Dravidian
> influenced brahmanic Vishitadvaita or the Saiva SiddhAnta, where ultimately
> only the Lord's grace will effect liberation.
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--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.