From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 1 01:19:38 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 00 21:19:38 -0400 Subject: SV: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: <01C02AE6.9D270A40.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227062006.23782.9694842576936962342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would say my two cents on people and the Rajaram episode. Social fanatics exist and Dr. Rajaram is perhaps one of them. Why are we politicizing this medium? There is a whole "creationist" lobby in the US and elsewhere. They publish their literature, some people subscribe them, buy them. How does that bother me as a scholar? All I say that I don't agree with their conclusions and they are obviously wrong. The same thing can be said of astrology columns in the newspapers. You can challenge any advertisement of any kind for that matter. Social reform is a political process and people spending their time and others' time on the topic seems useless to me. There was a talk of what passes on as scholarly work in this forum and the constant badger as to who are scholars. The present discussion does not present any facet of scholarship by the individuals concerned. Dr Rajaram probably has some social standing and the critics are concerned if he would increase his standing by tampering with the facts. There is a tacit assumption that others in India would close their eyes unless people from Indology group tell them. You reject his paper if he it comes to publication, but why denigrate him in a medium where he is not a member. Sorry if I sound rude. But this is my candid opinion. I have no idea of the critics' agenda. Looks reactionary to me. The proper course would be to publish what you think is right and not get to political journalism. Regards, Bijoy Misra On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > nanda chandran [SMTP:vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 30. september 2000 11:02: > > Yep, it is indeed very sad. But how can I help having such an attitude > > when professional historians whom one would expect to discuss issues > > objectively with courtesy, get down to gutter level polemic, personal > > slanging and vindictive abuse? Even common courtesy demands one to > > refrain from kicking somebody who's down. > > I assume you are talking about Rajaram, and I take exception to this > attempt to present him as an underdog. I have followed Rajaram's polemics > in the Organiser for a year, and he is a ruthless propagandist and vicious > hatemonger who deserves firm and determined opposition. He is also > representative of a set of attitudes that cries at you from every page of > the Organiser, so attacking Rajaram's views is not simply a matter of > attacking him, it is also an attack on a whole set of political thinking. > Discrediting these views is every decent person's duty. Rajaram and his > fellow travellers are trying to take India and Indians everywhere down a > road that can only lead to social catastrophe and disgrace. It has happened > before in Europe, and it should not be allowed to happen in India. > > > Outside academic circles many Hindus indeed view it that way. That > there's > > no resentment by the Hindus of the iconoclastic fanaticism of Islam is > > leftist propoganda. > > I don't know who said this, but Muslim iconoclasm is well known. What > happened in India during the medieval period is also well known, noone has > tried to hide or deny it, at least not in the West. What Rajaram and his > ilk are trying to do, is to revive ancient conflicts and instrumentalize > them for their own political purposes, which essentially is a matter of > retaining a revamped version of the old society with the upper castes in > firm control. Unfortunately, the way to Hell is clogged with people trying > to profit politically from ancient conflicts. In Europe, the former > Yugoslavia is only the most recent example of this. Is this what you want > for India? A society tearing itself to shreds in order to take revenge on > past injustices and preserve the privileges of the privileged? I would > suggest that you drop the hints about your opponents being "communists" and > "leftists". There is a vast political space between communism and fascism, > and most of belong there, not at the fringes. > > > The days of the Mughal empire are over. India is now a democratic > country. > > Let the truth about Islamic iconoclasm be known. Let the Hindus get back > > what is rightfully theirs. Even here the Hindus do not even want all the > > temples back, the thousands which were demolished to make way for the > > mosques - only the really important ones - only 3 or 4 - the temples at > > Mathura and Ayodhya, the Kashi Vishwanath etc - which are so integral a > part > > of the Hindu psyche - like the Vatican is to the Catholics. Surely this > is a > > reasonable demand! For this why should there be any violence at all? > > And why should you reopen old wounds and pour salt in them? Surely, peace > and prosperity for the majority of Indians is more important than centuries > old conflicts and "putting right" ancient injustices. 300 years ago, > substantial Norwegian territories were ceded to Sweden after a war. We do > not try to take them back. It wouldn't be worth the trouble. Peace, > prosperity and good neighbourlyness are more important values that a few > thousand square kilometers. What India needs is a new tolerance, which > means that leaders, both Hindu and Muslim, must work for mutual > understanding and peaceful solutions, not drag each other down into the > morrass of infighting and mutual terror through discrimination and > provocation. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 1 00:42:56 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 00:42:56 +0000 Subject: Rajaram episode Message-ID: <161227062004.23782.2852512005362264751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar wrote about Rajaram and his co-passengers: >Rajaram & co. are part of India's ruling elites?? That is >news to me, and to many others on this list. Prof. Witzel pointed to how Rajaram is big amog India's rulers: << To many, but not to all! Rajaram recently boasted to some of us that he has many friends in the Indian Government and that the Union Government has "advised" the National Book Trust to bring out his "popular book" 'From Sarasvati River to the Indus Script' in English and thirteen other languages." (Sanskrit seems to be missing? -- I hope the Book Trust will at least fill in the article!) >> For my reply with quotes of Dr. Ambedkar, see http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0008&L=indology&P=R9229 Anyone reading Rajaram's artciles in websites like "sword of truth" and, he is often writing in Pioneer... Are they not the mouthpieces of RSS, HVK etc.,? and are they not ruling India? His theoretical formulations go a long way among the ruling Hindu nationalist rulers. The political propaganda with his "Piltdown Horse" etc., & using news media and popular books which are read by millions, (acc. to Rajaram himself) must be countered in India by Indologists like Witzel & others. Hope the Frontline article reaches many Indians, and not blocked by the powerful. Thanks and with regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From kkumar80 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 1 01:24:46 2000 From: kkumar80 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kumar Kumarappan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 02:24:46 +0100 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062008.23782.7260977934015929694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This debate in this forum caught my attention. Not being a scholar in related matters my opinions may be dismissed easily. But I would like to share Prof.George Hart's thoughts on this issue. This was part of a personal email exchange, that I cut and paste here. I have his permission to share this in public forums. --kumAr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Statement on the Status of Tamil as a Classical Language by Prof.George Hart: Professor Maraimalai has asked me to write regarding the position of Tamil as a classical language, and I am delighted to respond to his request. I have been a Professor of Tamil at the University of California, Berkeley, since 1975 and am currently holder of the Tamil Chair at that institution. My degree, which I received in 1970, is in Sanskrit, from Harvard, and my first employment was as a Sanskrit professor at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, in 1969. Besides Tamil and Sanskrit, I know the classical languages of Latin and Greek and have read extensively in their literatures in the original. I am also well-acquainted with comparative linguistics and the literatures of modern Europe (I know Russian, German, and French and have read extensively in those languages) as well as the literatures of modern India, which, with the exception of Tamil and some Malayalam, I have read in translation. I have spent much time discussing Telugu literature and its tradition with V. Narayanarao, one of the greatest living Telugu scholars, and so I know that tradition especially well. As a long-standing member of a South Asian Studies department, I have also been exposed to the richness of both Hindi literature, and I have read in detail about Mahadevi Varma, Tulsi, and Kabir. I have spent many years -- most of my life (since 1963) -- studying Sanskrit. I have read in the original all of Kalidasa, Magha, and parts of Bharavi and Sri Harsa. I have also read in the original the fifth book of the Rig Veda as well as many other sections, many of the Upanisads, most of the Mahabharata, the Kathasaritsagara, Adi Sankara?s works, and many other works in Sanskrit. I say this not because I wish to show my erudition, but rather to establish my fitness for judging whether a literature is classical. Let me state unequivocally that, by any criteria one may choose, Tamil is one of the great classical literatures and traditions of the world. The reasons for this are many; let me consider them one by one. First, Tamil is of considerable antiquity. It predates the literatures of other modern Indian languages by more than a thousand years. Its oldest work, the Tolkappiyam,, contains parts that, judging from the earliest Tamil inscriptions, date back to about 200 BCE. The greatest works of ancient Tamil, the Sangam anthologies and the Pattuppattu, date to the first two centuries of the current era. They are the first great secular body of poetry written in India, predating Kalidasa's works by two hundred years. Second, Tamil constitutes the only literary tradition indigenous to India that is not derived from Sanskrit. Indeed, its literature arose before the influence of Sanskrit in the South became strong and so is qualitatively different from anything we have in Sanskrit or other Indian languages. It has its own poetic theory, its own grammatical tradition, its own esthetics, and, above all, a large body of literature that is quite unique. It shows a sort of Indian sensibility that is quite different from anything in Sanskrit or other Indian languages, and it contains its own extremely rich and vast intellectual tradition. Third, the quality of classical Tamil literature is such that it is fit to stand beside the great literatures of Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Chinese, Persian and Arabic. The subtlety and profundity of its works, their varied scope (Tamil is the only premodern Indian literature to treat the subaltern extensively), and their universality qualify Tamil to stand as one of the great classical traditions and literatures of the world. Everyone knows the Tirukkural, one of the world's greatest works on ethics; but this is merely one of a myriad of major and extremely varied works that comprise the Tamil classical tradition. There is not a facet of human existence that is not explored and illuminated by this great literature. Finally, Tamil is one of the primary independent sources of modern Indian culture and tradition. I have written extensively on the influence of a Southern tradition on the Sanskrit poetic tradition. But equally important, the great sacred works of Tamil Hinduism, beginning with the Sangam Anthologies, have undergirded the development of modern Hinduism. Their ideas were taken into the Bhagavata Purana and other texts (in Telugu and Kannada as well as Sanskrit), whence they spread all over India. Tamil has its own works that are considered to be as sacred as the Vedas and that are recited alongside Vedic mantras in the great Vaisnava temples of South India (such as Tirupati). And just as Sanskrit is the source of the modern Indo-Aryan languages, classical Tamil is the source language of modern Tamil and Malayalam. As Sanskrit is the most conservative and least changed of the Indo-Aryan languages, Tamil is the most conservative of the Dravidian languages, the touchstone that linguists must consult to understand the nature and development of Dravidian. In trying to discern why Tamil has not been recognized as a modern language, I can see only a political reason: there is a fear that if Tamil is selected as a classical language, other Indian languages may claim similar status. This is an unnecessary worry. I am well aware of the richness of the modern Indian languages -- I know that they are among the most fecund and productive languages on earth, each having begotten a modern (and often medieval) literature that can stand with any of the major literatures of the world. Yet none of them is a classical language. Like English and the other modern languages of Europe (with the exception of Greek), they rose on preexisting traditions rather late and developed in the second millennium. The fact that Greek is universally recognized as a classical language in Europe does not lead the French or the English to claim classical status for their languages. To qualify as a classical tradition, a language must fit several criteria: it should be ancient, it should be an independent tradition that arose mostly on its own not as an offshoot of another tradition, and it must have a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature. Unlike the other modern languages of India, Tamil meets each of these requirements. It is extremely old (as old as Latin and older than Arabic); it arose as an entirely independent tradition, with almost no influence from Sanskrit or other languages; and its ancient literature is indescribably vast and rich. It seems strange to me that I should have to write an essay such as this claiming that Tamil is a classical literature -- it is akin to claiming that India is a great country or Hinduism is one of the world's great religions. The status of Tamil as one of the great classical languages of the world is something that is patently obvious to anyone who knows the subject. To deny that Tamil is a classical language is to deny a vital and central part of the greatness and richness of Indian culture - - - - - - - - - - From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 1 07:15:49 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 03:15:49 -0400 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062010.23782.2495542991491301550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, hans henrich hock wrote: > If we fail to introduce more civility and impartiality we will not > only talk past each other, we will actually be providing aid and > comfort to those we are trying to combat, by creating the appearance > that it's simply one ideologically-based and problematic approach > opposing another one. I too would like to beg the indulgence of this list and second these comments. Despite having spent most of my academic career researching the problem of Indo-Aryan origins -- a fascinating intellectual and historical problem -- I have become completely disillusioned, and somewhat repulsed, by the emotional, sarcastic and condescending tenor of much of the exchange from *both* sides of the debate in this regard. Yes, stereotypes are simply being reinforced by all this -- western neo-colonialist/Indian leftist Marxist vs Hindu fundamentalist/Right-wing Nationalist. It was Mallory, as I recall, who mentioned in one of his articles that "History cannot be written by decibel." Although impartiality might be asking too much, civility would be most welcome. Regards, Edwin Bryant From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 1 13:25:12 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 06:25:12 -0700 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062024.23782.16482888821869795170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: Perhaps that overwhelming Hindu majority could consider returning all the Jaina and Buddhist structures to their erstwhile owners first, before raving about what the Muslims later did to brahminical structures? Why such a partisan attitude? (Sorry if the desire for 'truth and integrity' in some of us, which you expressly say not to believe in, asks such questions.) btw, why do Dutch people complain so much about the German occupation during WWII when they themselves displaced/colonized/acculturated/killed off the Celts? Maybe the Dutch should consider handing over their entire country, incl Leyden :-), to the Irish who at least speak a Celtic language? Sorry if my desire for truth and integrity asks such questions. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 1 11:47:57 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 07:47:57 -0400 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062016.23782.1249744703978310198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you happy because Rajaram gets a bash or are you happy that Harappans received attention? As I have said your various research and points of view have a different bias, that you need to contemplate. As a person of Indian origin I appreciate research in Indology. But I sincerely beg objectivity and unbiased research. Reagrds, Bijoy Misra On Sun, 1 Oct 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Anand M. Sharan wrote: > > I think we are wasting a lot of time here going after Rajaram and not > > making efforts in deciphering the Indus script . > > It is not just one person - it is the whole Vedic Harappa theory that is > at stake here. The entire Vedic Indus hypothesis is now in severe danger > of going down with Rajaram. > > As Rajaram's model is the only Sanskritic model to date, and is now part > of Indian school curriculum, it is only natural that so much attention > should be focussed on it. Also, Rajaram said that he only cared about the > Indian press where "millions" read his work, and did not bother about > Western academic publications which "rot away in dusty library shelves". > It was essentially an open challenge to Indologists - which has now at > last been taken up in the only forum which Rajaram bothers about: the > Indian mass media. Demolishing his claims in Western journals would have > had no effect and would have been too kind. > > > I posted on my web about the Migration of Indus People where the > > decipherment by Pathak and Verma was mentioned . > > That work is definitely interesting and indeed, perfectly viable. However, > obvious false hypotheses like Rajaram's theory must first be excluded from > the domain of viable ones - just like in `multiple choice' exams. Once > that is done, it is certain that the decipherment of Pathak and Verma will > receive impetus. > > N.Ganesan wrote: " The political propaganda ... must be countered in India > > by Indologists like Witzel & others." > > The importance of Witzel and Farmer's work - esp. the press reports - > cannot be overemphasised. In India, the appearance of an article in > newspapers is viewed as a `publication', perhaps even more important than > that. Such articles are even cited in `scholarly' books. It has taken some > time for western Indologists to realise this. > > And of course, for non-specialists it becomes the sole source of > information. Many educated persons - even historians - were actually > convinced by Rajaram et al that OIT was correct, mainly because there was > no opposition to his continuous flow of press articles. > > The Rajaram affair is having a good impact on Indology though. For > the first time in decades, Indologists are now occupying front-page news > space. And more money is being spent on Indology. The common man is > suddenly interested in archaeology. Once again, in direct contrast with > the West. > > Samar. > From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 1 07:22:39 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 12:52:39 +0530 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062012.23782.17713746281261494501.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 02:24 AM 10/1/00 +0100, you wrote: >This debate in this forum caught my attention. Not being a scholar in >related matters my opinions may be dismissed easily. But I would like to >share Prof.George Hart's thoughts on this issue. This was part of a >personal email exchange, that I cut and paste here. I have his permission >to share this in public forums. >--kumAr >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >Statement on the Status of Tamil as a Classical Language by Prof.George >Hart: > >Professor Maraimalai has asked me to write regarding the position of Tamil >as a classical language, and I am delighted to respond to his request. > >I have been a Professor of Tamil at the University of California, Berkeley, >since 1975 and am currently holder of the Tamil Chair at that institution. >My degree, which I received in 1970, is in Sanskrit, from Harvard, and my >first employment was as a Sanskrit professor at the University of >Wisconsin, Madison, in 1969. Besides Tamil and Sanskrit, I know the >classical languages of Latin and Greek and have read extensively in their >literatures in the original. I am also well-acquainted with comparative >linguistics and the literatures of modern Europe (I know Russian, German, >and French and have read extensively in those languages) as well as the >literatures of modern India, which, with the exception of Tamil and some >Malayalam, I have read in translation. I have spent much time discussing >Telugu literature and its tradition with V. Narayanarao, one of the >greatest living Telugu scholars, and so I know that tradition especially >well. As a long-standing member of a South Asian Studies department, I have >also been exposed to the richness of both Hindi literature, and I have read >in detail about Mahadevi Varma, Tulsi, and Kabir. > >I have spent many years -- most of my life (since 1963) -- studying >Sanskrit. I have read in the original all of Kalidasa, Magha, and parts of >Bharavi and Sri Harsa. I have also read in the original the fifth book of >the Rig Veda as well as many other sections, many of the Upanisads, most of >the Mahabharata, the Kathasaritsagara, Adi Sankara?s works, and many other >works in Sanskrit. > >I say this not because I wish to show my erudition, but rather to establish >my fitness for judging whether a literature is classical. Let me state >unequivocally that, by any criteria one may choose, Tamil is one of the >great classical literatures and traditions of the world. > >The reasons for this are many; let me consider them one by one. > >First, Tamil is of considerable antiquity. It predates the literatures of >other modern Indian languages by more than a thousand years. Its oldest >work, the Tolkappiyam,, contains parts that, judging from the earliest >Tamil inscriptions, date back to about 200 BCE. The greatest works of >ancient Tamil, the Sangam anthologies and the Pattuppattu, date to the >first two centuries of the current era. They are the first great secular >body of poetry written in India, predating Kalidasa's works by two hundred >years. > >Second, Tamil constitutes the only literary tradition indigenous to India >that is not derived from Sanskrit. Indeed, its literature arose before the >influence of Sanskrit in the South became strong and so is qualitatively >different from anything we have in Sanskrit or other Indian languages. It >has its own poetic theory, its own grammatical tradition, its own >esthetics, and, above all, a large body of literature that is quite unique. >It shows a sort of Indian sensibility that is quite different from anything >in Sanskrit or other Indian languages, and it contains its own extremely >rich and vast intellectual tradition. > >Third, the quality of classical Tamil literature is such that it is fit to >stand beside the great literatures of Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Chinese, >Persian and Arabic. The subtlety and profundity of its works, their varied >scope (Tamil is the only premodern Indian literature to treat the subaltern >extensively), and their universality qualify Tamil to stand as one of the >great classical traditions and literatures of the world. Everyone knows the >Tirukkural, one of the world's greatest works on ethics; but this is merely >one of a myriad of major and extremely varied works that comprise the Tamil >classical tradition. There is not a facet of human existence that is not >explored and illuminated by this great literature. > >Finally, Tamil is one of the primary independent sources of modern Indian >culture and tradition. I have written extensively on the influence of a >Southern tradition on the Sanskrit poetic tradition. But equally important, >the great sacred works of Tamil Hinduism, beginning with the Sangam >Anthologies, have undergirded the development of modern Hinduism. Their >ideas were taken into the Bhagavata Purana and other texts (in Telugu and >Kannada as well as Sanskrit), whence they spread all over India. Tamil has >its own works that are considered to be as sacred as the Vedas and that are >recited alongside Vedic mantras in the great Vaisnava temples of South >India (such as Tirupati). And just as Sanskrit is the source of the modern >Indo-Aryan languages, classical Tamil is the source language of modern >Tamil and Malayalam. As Sanskrit is the most conservative and least changed >of the Indo-Aryan languages, Tamil is the most conservative of the >Dravidian languages, the touchstone that linguists must consult to >understand the nature and development of Dravidian. > >In trying to discern why Tamil has not been recognized as a modern >language, I can see only a political reason: there is a fear that if Tamil >is selected as a classical language, other Indian languages may claim >similar status. This is an unnecessary worry. I am well aware of the >richness of the modern Indian languages -- I know that they are among the >most fecund and productive languages on earth, each having begotten a >modern (and often medieval) literature that can stand with any of the major >literatures of the world. Yet none of them is a classical language. Like >English and the other modern languages of Europe (with the exception of >Greek), they rose on preexisting traditions rather late and developed in >the second millennium. The fact that Greek is universally recognized as a >classical language in Europe does not lead the French or the English to >claim classical status for their languages. > >To qualify as a classical tradition, a language must fit several criteria: >it should be ancient, it should be an independent tradition that arose >mostly on its own not as an offshoot of another tradition, and it must have >a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature. Unlike the other >modern languages of India, Tamil meets each of these requirements. It is >extremely old (as old as Latin and older than Arabic); it arose as an >entirely independent tradition, with almost no influence from Sanskrit or >other languages; and its ancient literature is indescribably vast and rich. > >It seems strange to me that I should have to write an essay such as this >claiming that Tamil is a classical literature -- it is akin to claiming >that India is a great country or Hinduism is one of the world's great >religions. The status of Tamil as one of the great classical languages of >the world is something that is patently obvious to anyone who knows the >subject. To deny that Tamil is a classical language is to deny a vital and >central part of the greatness and richness of Indian culture >- - - - - - - - - - Appa! Finally it requires a great Professor to state the obvious. (We should thank Mr. Kumar Kumarappan to forward the mail from Prof.George Hart.) With great humility and simultaneous confidence, the Professor has stated the above. Even after this assertion, if some of our Indian/Indological friends are hesitating to acknowledge the Classical Nature of Tamil, then perhaps we are talking to closed minds. Incidentally, stating the above assertion about Tamil does not in any way undermine Sanskrit. In this august list, I have earlier raised a rhetorical question: "What do we say to historical (cultural and linguistic) matters related to tamil and others? Dravidology perhaps?" If we don't want exclusivity, then we have to boldly state that Indology is not equal to Sanskritology; it should be much more. To state differently, Indology does not start from Kyber Pass alone. It also starts from Kumari down south, including the submerged land. It is not only Jumbu Dweep; it is also Navalam thaNpoZil. With regards, RM.Krishnan. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Oct 1 12:02:16 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 13:02:16 +0100 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062018.23782.5824213389369456445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Romila Thapar writes (Frontline) : In 1968, I had argued at a session of the Indian History Congress that invasion was untenable and that the language -- Indo-Aryan -- had come with a series of migrations and therefore involving multiple avenues of acculturation of peoples. Unfortunately that had not reached the textbooks 10 years later, when I was in high school with an NCERT curriculum. My understanding is despite all the talk of BJP changing textbooks, it is still not in the curriculum. Most Indians have the Invasion view of history and not the Incursion view. I think the interview of Gita Mehta by C.J.S Wallia in 1997 exemplifies this. See http://www.indiastar.com/wallia4.htm Gita Mehta is an author, daughter of a prominent Indian politician. Of her and her husband (URL above): As quoted in a magazine article in Vanity Fair Richard Eyre, an old friend of the couple and currently the artistic director of London's Royal National, thought, "the couple were preternaturally well-read, politically, culturally, musically literate in the widest sense." and The Mehtas are central figures in New York's literary-publishing world, where they hold frequent salons for the likes of Gabriel Garcia Marquez, V.S. Naipaul, and Norman Mailer. Excerpt : c.j.w.: In your book you have said that the Aryans and Dravidians are a different race. I don't understand that. Gita Mehta: Well, you are from the Punjab. You are of a different race from someone from Kerala. [c.j.w. dissents that there was an invasion.] Gita Mehta: There wasn't an Aryan Invasion?! I could quote much chapter and verse that there was. --- So, here is this "literate in the widest sense" cosmopolitan person who does not know better. Average Indians with their state-dictated textbooks, till recently dictated by an intellectual group dominated by the likes of Romila Thapar, can hardly be expected to know better. -arun gupta From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 1 13:13:58 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 13:13:58 +0000 Subject: Rajaram episode (was: Re: Rajaram unrepentent!) Message-ID: <161227062022.23782.9699523923177524628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >All this would be simply crackpot fun if Rajaram's writings >didn't have a nasty fascist edge to it, and weren't meant to >mobilize the Indian masses. Stay tuned to Rajaram's definitive >deconstruction in a cover story written by Michael Witzel and me, >with a backup article from Romila Thapar, that will hit the >magazine stands in India later this week. Pretty cover, too! Dear Dr. Farmer, Nearly two years ago (1-Jan-99), I posted here scholarly work about the early history of Hindu nationalist and Fascism quoted from P. Robb, The concept of Race in South Asia, Oxford UP, 1997, "Savarkar expressed a certain attraction for European fascism. In 1938, the year after he became president of the Hindu Mahasabha, he congratulated Hitler during a public meeting in Delhi for having 'liberated' the Sudetans who shared the 'same blood and same tongue' as the Germans. At the same time, Hindu Outlook (the Hindu Mahasabha mouthpiece) and Mahratta (one of Tilak's newspapers, edited by N.C. Kelkar, an active Hindu Sabhaite) praised Franco and Mussolini as well as Hitler. Some Hindu Sabhaites had had direct contacts with European fascists since the early 1930s. When Moonje (Tilak's lieutenant at Nagpur, who became president of the Hindu Mahasabha in 1927) journeyed to London to attend the first Round table Conference, he went to Italy in order "to see the working of the Ballila movement", It seems that he met Hitler and had an interview with Mussolini, who was pleased to show him his military institutions". Prior to this mail, I pointed to Dr. Fosse a citation where Christophe Jaffrelot discusses how Mr. Golwalkar makes Bihar and Orissa as the home of Aryans which G. claimed to have been the ancient North Pole also. Plate tectonics then, and nowadays it is photos from NASA satellites! Now you have shown the trustworthiness of Rajaram's Indus "horse" in his lobors to "prove" that IVC was the Aryan home which gave birth to all of world civilization and culture. http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9812&L=indology&P=R33006 listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9812&L=indology&P=R33006 P. Robb, The concept of Race in South Asia, Oxford UP, 1997, p. 342: "In order to make this point without contradicting prestigious predecessors such as Tilak, Golwalkar concedes that the 'Aryans, i.e., the Hindus, lived in the region of the North Pole'. But he argues that modern palaeontological researches demonstrate the the North Pole is not stationary, and that 'quite long ago it was in that part of the world, we find, is called Bihar and Orissa at the present' [59] [59] Golwalkar, We, or our nationhood defined, p. 13. Interestingly, this theory has been introduced in the history textbooks in the States controlled between 1990 and 1992 by the Bharatiya Janata Party, the political front of the R.S.S." Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Oct 1 12:16:10 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 13:16:10 +0100 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062020.23782.6908133953788245751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Zydenbos writes : Perhaps that overwhelming Hindu majority could consider returning all the Jaina and Buddhist structures to their erstwhile owners first, before raving about what the Muslims later did to brahminical structures? Why such a partisan attitude? (Sorry if the desire for 'truth and integrity' in some of us, which you expressly say not to believe in, asks such questions.) My reply : your contempt for Hindus is showing. First, being a majority is no guarantee of being oppression-free, witness South Africa. Injustice does not cease to be injustice because it happened to a majority. Second, there is no systematic Hindu ideology or program of destroying structures of other religions, nor is such glorified anywhere. The historical evidence for this happening in a systematic way is thin at the best. Third, in no other case of real or symbolic cases of restitution or reparation, have the victims been called on their history. Whether it be Israelis, or many American Indian tribes or virtually anyone but the Australian aborigines, they displaced earlier peoples; but that has never been relevant before. -arun gupta From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Oct 1 09:02:54 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 14:32:54 +0530 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062014.23782.4815601224553824432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Anand M. Sharan wrote: > I think we are wasting a lot of time here going after Rajaram and not > making efforts in deciphering the Indus script . It is not just one person - it is the whole Vedic Harappa theory that is at stake here. The entire Vedic Indus hypothesis is now in severe danger of going down with Rajaram. As Rajaram's model is the only Sanskritic model to date, and is now part of Indian school curriculum, it is only natural that so much attention should be focussed on it. Also, Rajaram said that he only cared about the Indian press where "millions" read his work, and did not bother about Western academic publications which "rot away in dusty library shelves". It was essentially an open challenge to Indologists - which has now at last been taken up in the only forum which Rajaram bothers about: the Indian mass media. Demolishing his claims in Western journals would have had no effect and would have been too kind. > I posted on my web about the Migration of Indus People where the > decipherment by Pathak and Verma was mentioned . That work is definitely interesting and indeed, perfectly viable. However, obvious false hypotheses like Rajaram's theory must first be excluded from the domain of viable ones - just like in `multiple choice' exams. Once that is done, it is certain that the decipherment of Pathak and Verma will receive impetus. N.Ganesan wrote: " The political propaganda ... must be countered in India > by Indologists like Witzel & others." The importance of Witzel and Farmer's work - esp. the press reports - cannot be overemphasised. In India, the appearance of an article in newspapers is viewed as a `publication', perhaps even more important than that. Such articles are even cited in `scholarly' books. It has taken some time for western Indologists to realise this. And of course, for non-specialists it becomes the sole source of information. Many educated persons - even historians - were actually convinced by Rajaram et al that OIT was correct, mainly because there was no opposition to his continuous flow of press articles. The Rajaram affair is having a good impact on Indology though. For the first time in decades, Indologists are now occupying front-page news space. And more money is being spent on Indology. The common man is suddenly interested in archaeology. Once again, in direct contrast with the West. Samar. From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 1 15:04:55 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 15:04:55 +0000 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062027.23782.18281894299205512467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Why not Sanskrit > AND Tamil? If denying classical language status to Tamil > reveals an ignorance of Tamil texts, don't you think that > those on the other side of the debate often reveal their > ignorance of Sanskrit sources? Yes, why not both ? And many more like Pali, Ardha-Magadhi, Avantika, Saurseni and such others including medieval Indian languages. A language which has produced classics is classical. Even Urdu. The problem is not with Indian languages but with the definition of "classical", which for Indians cultural artifacts, is an inappropriate term. Do we have even a near exact equivalent for classical, classics etc.? No not even Maargii and Desii will do. Defining "classical" here and giving Indian examples is nearly impossible. Why are Kamban and Tulsi not as classical as Valmiki, they all live together in the Indian minds and feelings and recreate each other. To witness this truth, just attend any Hari-kathaa or traditional theatre in any corner of India. This is not so true of Homer and Goethe in the same way. They live in the departments of classics because the myths are not alive in Europe as much as in India. What is Indian classical music? Shaastriya Sangiita (a poor translation of 'classical')! As if the music in the villages is agaisnt the Shastras !! This is a problem I face each year I start teaching a class on so called classical culture or art/music/ literature of India. So much time is wasted in teaching the construction of the "classical" in Europe from Renaissance onwards and then its import into colonial India. Why not just have categories like Atipraachiina, Praachiina and Arvachiina bhaashaas for India. If Tamil and Sanskrit are found to be present in all categories, what is wrong ? The 'classical' game seems to be one for hegemony and exclusiveness, more for politics rather than culture. best, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Oct 1 14:05:55 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 15:05:55 +0100 Subject: Indus script in Santhal Villages of Bihar Message-ID: <161227062025.23782.14467394054797273559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think the little book, "Indus script among Dravidian Speakers" by the author Dr. R. Mathivanan, published by General Editor-Dr N. Mahalingam of the International Society for the Investigation of Ancient Civilizations, 102 Mount Road, Guindy, Madras 600032 has wealth of information.It has pictures of Indus script on the walls in the Santhal Villages from Bihar. It has pictures of bilingual and biscript coins. I am not pessimistic about the outcome of the future archaeological excavations in India. The nine sign Dolvira board is the recent discovery. I may be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge there is no archaeological excavations in the Eastern or the South-eastern regions of India comparable in extent of Mohenjodaro and Harappa.In my opinon the Indian archaeology is not even 100 years old.One should not try to color the ancient Indian civilization in the rush. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 2 00:23:16 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 17:23:16 -0700 Subject: kuRuntokai 22 Message-ID: <161227062036.23782.4389708726784416450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a question re KuRuntokai 22 which I reproduce here for quick reference: nIrvAr kaNNai nIyiva Noziya yArO pirikiR pavarE cAraR cilampaNi koNTa valaJcuri marAattu vEni laJcinai kamazum tEmU roNNuta ninnoTuJ celavE. Loosely translated: You're crying alone here who can bear to part from you, Your brow sweet as the fragrance of the right whorled white kadamba blossoms blooming on the mountain slopes in spring In his commentary to this verse, U Ve cAminAtaiyar writes, "ArrAmai mikka talaivi, 'yAro pirikiRpavarE' enRu tOzi kURiya mAttirattil tuyar nIGkit talaiyetuttu nimirntu nOkkinALAka, neRRiyin viLakkaGkANTA tOzi, " tEmu roNNutal' enRu viLittAL." (kuRuntokai, u. Ve Ca., kapIr Press, 4th impression, 1962, p 64) It seems to me that this interpretation seems to, at least implicitly, subscribe to the view that poetic utterance has a creative potential hidden within it. In other words, poems have a mantra like power. It is interesting to note that the edition of M. Shanmugam Pillai's brief commentary on this verse does not contain this little interpretative excursus. Considering the traditional commentary has not come down to us, can this interpretation be considered to be justified? I'd like the list members view on this topic. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 2 00:43:57 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 17:43:57 -0700 Subject: kuRuntokai 22 Message-ID: <161227062038.23782.176054364937450282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a question re KuRuntokai 22 which I reproduce here for quick reference: nIrvAr kaNNai nIyiva Noziya yArO pirikiR pavarE cAraR cilampaNi koNTa valaJcuri marAattu vEni laJcinai kamazum tEmU roNNuta ninnoTuJ celavE. Loosely translated: You're crying that you remain here who'd want to part with you - with a bright brow sweet as the fragrance of the right whorled white kadamba flowers blooming on the mountain slopes in spring It's with you that he will go. In his commentary to this verse, U Ve cAminAtaiyar writes, "ArrAmai mikka talaivi, 'yAro pirikiRpavarE' enRu tOzi kURiya mAttirattil tuyar nIGkit talaiyetuttu nimirntu nOkkinALAka, neRRiyin viLakkaGkANTA tOzi, " tEmu roNNutal' enRu viLittAL." (kuRuntokai, u. Ve Ca., kapIr Press, 4th impression, 1962, p 64) Loosely translated: The grieving heroine, feels cheered by her companion's words "who would want to part with you" and looks up. The companion observing the (now) shining forehead calls it, "fragrant bright brow". It seems to me that this interpretation seems to, at least implicitly, subscribe to the view that poetic utterance has creative potential. In other words, poems have a mantra like power. It may be noted that M. Shanmugam Pillai's usually brief commentary does not contain this little interpretative excursus for this verse. Can this interpretation be considered to be justified? I'd like the list members view on this topic. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Oct 1 21:57:05 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 17:57:05 -0400 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062031.23782.15696095594609419080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 9/29/2000 7:13:10 AM Central Daylight Time, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes: > I have no competence in Tamil, and I simply > didn't know to what extent it was used outside Tamilnad. Whether Tamil fits > my definition or not is something I must leave to others to decide! If so, it is hard to understand why he excluded Tamil as a classical language earlier. In a message dated 9/28/2000 1:15:30 PM Central Daylight Time, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes: > "A classical language is a language with an ancient literature of > outstanding quality that through a considerable period of time has played > an important part in the history, literature and culture of several peoples > that otherwise may use different mother tongues." > > This definition would include languages such as Greek, Latin, Arabic, > Persian, and Sanskrit as well as Classical Chinese. It would exclude Tamil... Probably he did not consult the scope section of the Indology list. In any case, his statement did serve a useful purpose. He said: > Classical languages are > normally used across time and space by educated people and serve as link > languages and carriers of ideas with some claim to universality: e.g. Greek > and Latin for Christianity, Arabic for Islam, Sanskrit for Hinduism etc. There seems to be a definitional creep here. Lars' first "definition" demands only that a classical language "play a part" in the history, literature and culture of peoples who use different mother tongues. But, later he expands the list of constraints by saying that classical languages must be "used by educated people and serve as link languages". In "Slaves of the Lord", Vidya Dehejia translates a line of Padmapurana as follows: "And Bhakti spoke: I was born in the Dravida country, matured in Karnataka, spent my youth wandering in Maharashtra, attained old age in Gujarat... Padma Purana, uttara khanda chapter 189, line 54" (to continue) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Oct 1 22:04:41 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 18:04:41 -0400 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062033.23782.701006973948415974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thus the roots of emotional bhakti of India are traceable to Tamil songs of nAyanmAr and AzvAr. As Kamil Zvelebil points out, these use "the akam conventions and traditional pre-bhakti literary genres and forms like the ARRuppaTai 'guide-poem'." So, there is no doubt that Tamil did play a part in the religious culture of people outside Tamilnadu. But, was it" used" by educated people outside Tamilnadu? On this question, some data from Thailand were posted earlier on the list. Evidence for the use of Tamil by non-Tamil Indian elite could potentially come from Tamil, and Sanskrit sources. Indeed, Tamil literary tradition has important evidence for that. One of the 18 works of Classical Tamil is "kuRiJcippATTU". Its colophon states that it was composed with the express purpose of teaching an Aryan king the conceprt of Tamil love poetry. The veracity of the colophon is corroborated by the nature of the text itself. Moreover, there is a CT poem attributed to an Aryan king (probably the same one mentioned earlier). But such a direct acknowledgement by ancient non-Tamil Sanskritists may be hard to come by from Sanskrit sources because of the linguistic attitudes prevailing among the orthodox Sanskritists. (These attitudes have been discussed by Madhav Deshpande in "Sociolinguistic Attitudes in India' and "Sanskrit and Prakrit". ) Discussing the silence of the Gadyas of rAmAnuja regarding the AzvArs, Vasudha Narayanan says, "ramAnuja intended his philosophical works to be convincing to an audience of Brahmin scholars outside the community, who might have been shocked by ascribing authority to Tamil poems composed by poets of various castes. The Gadyas, however, have always been used within the zrIvaiSNava community and are little known outside it. It appears, therefore, that rAmAnuja was such a conservative Brahmin that when he was writing in Sanskrit he did not make any explicit reference to anything not written in Sanskrit." (to continue) From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 2 01:16:00 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 18:16:00 -0700 Subject: kuRuntokai 22 Message-ID: <161227062040.23782.16810608546327345940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A working version of the post with above subject line was sent inadvertently to the list. Plse ignore it. The correct version for discussion is the later one that is signed with my initials. Sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sun Oct 1 18:38:39 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 00 19:38:39 +0100 Subject: Rajaram episode (was: Re: Rajaram unrepentent!) Message-ID: <161227062029.23782.4376555542190917830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr.Ganesan quotes from Robb to "prove" BJP, RSS and it's "parivar" are fascist. Similar thoughts have been expressed in the article of Witzel and framer as an extension of Rajaram episode It is ironic the word "fascist" is bandied about with abandon at Indian political parties . RSS and it's "front end" have been in power for a number of years. But apparently no "fascist" action has been noticed. Which self-respecting fascist party goes through no-confidence motion and loses by 1 vote and takes it's gracefully as BJP-RSS did 2 years back. Which self- respecting fascist party would show respect for constituional and legal norms and not kick out other parties from power like BJP-RSS had co-existed with other parties at state levels. Now unfortunately the word "fascist" has become a tool in the hands of oppurtunistic western liberal imperilism. During the 1030s when the actual fascist beast appeared in Europe Indologists helped Nazi ideas and helped Nazi race theories. Even before that during early 1900s with some help from Indologists, "non-Aryans" like Indians and even South Europeans from immiograting into the US. In an infamous judgement delivered by a US judge, Indian immigrants were kept out of the US due to being "non-aryans" During the actual time of fascism and racism , Indology has helped unsavoury ideogies. As a reaction against this murky past, it throws accusations of "fascism" against responsible political and social groups in India. The oppurtunism of this western liberal imperilism can be seen in the fact that Turkey is not considered fascist, even though if anyomne questions the official line of Turkish nationhood and ethnicity one can be put in jail. Why? because Turkey is military ally of the west and a member of European community. Whereas India os a fair game to rubbish it's social and politcal movements because it is a non-western country. But I will stop here. The only point I wish to make is that Indology , as a western study, too easily projects and fights it's own fascist ghosts on the Indian scene From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon Oct 2 06:19:00 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 02:19:00 -0400 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062047.23782.17647836881211823595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> But when rAmAnuja praises viSNu as "O nArAyaNa, beloved consort of zrI and of bhUmi, and nILA", the name nILA suggests a link to the Tamil source of zrIvaiSNavism.. Similarly, one can get indirect evidence that non-Tamil scholars did know Tamil. John Marr says the following: The commentary of taruNAVAcaspati on daNDin's kAvyadarza includes what is probably a Sanskrit notice of the eight Tamil anthologies. Commenting on kAvyadarza 1,13 he states: "saGghAtaH ekArthaviSayaH, ekArtRkaH, padyasaGghAtaH, zaratsaGghAta dramiDasanghAtAdivat" (The Eight Anthologies, 1985, p.12-13) George Hart (1976), in his analysis of the shared elements in the use of suggestion in Sanskrit and Tamil, stated, "Sanskrit did not borrow from Tamil because clearly the Sanskrit writers were not acquainted with the Tamil tradition" but from the mahArASTri Prakit tradition which, in turn, came from a Deccani megalithic tradition. However, Siegfried Lienhard (1984) attributes more direct influence by Tamil on the Prakrit tradition when she says, " hAla's reign coincided with the flowering of Tamil caGkam lyrical poetry which, having already reached perfection in form and content, quite possibly exercised an influence on creative writing in maharASTra." My work on "uraga" and "AlavAy" has established that Kalidasa was knowledgeable about the literary elements found in CT referring to Pandyan kings. The motif of sandal/malaya mountain breezes affecting separated lovers is another clue that Sanskrit poets must have been familiar with Tamil motifs. After all, potiyil mountain is in the Tamil country and the motif appears early in Tamil literature. The following discussion in tantravArttika of kumArila bhaTTa also indicates some knowledge of Tamil among the Sanskrit scholarly elite: "As for example, in the drAviDa language, though all words are used as ending in the consonant, yet the Aryas are found to assume in them affixes, &c., that can be appended only to words ending in vowels, and thence make the words give a sense, in accordance with their own (saNskRta), language." Thus, Tamil seems to have been "used" by non-Tamil elites in ancient India. I hope George Hart's eloquent statement posted by Kumar and the above discussion are enough for Lars to call Tamil a classical language. Regards S. Palaniappan From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 03:42:13 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 03:42:13 +0000 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062042.23782.2654386227768544544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> schrieb RZ : >Perhaps that overwhelming Hindu majority could consider returning all the >Jaina and Buddhist structures to their erstwhile owners first, before >raving >about what the Muslims later did to brahminical structures? Why such a >partisan attitude? (Sorry if the desire for 'truth and integrity' in some >of us, >which you expressly say not to believe in, asks such questions.) Though others have already commented on such ridiculous questions, I too would like to point out a few things. Yes, I observe that whenever the tolerant nature of the Hindu religion is brought up RZ without fail will raise these questions -"Thirujnaanasambandar killed a lot of JainAs" etc. Why is this? How many such instances are there when Hindus "destroyed" JainA temples or defaced JainA idols? Yes, there was rivalry and OCCASIONALLY it went beyond the boundaries of civility - but the JainAs were no means the only people on the receiving end. When the king was a JainA, Hindus too were persecuted. Anyway such instances, which are totally incompatible with the fundemental teachings of both religions, were exceptions rather than the norm. And why is there this attempt to identify JainAs and Buddhists as entities apart from the Hindus. It was Hindus who created both religions - it was Hindus who became followers of these religions - it was Hindus who sometimes left these religins and went back to their original fold - and JainAs even today use brahmins for certain ceremonies and also inter-marry with Hindus. The same is the case with the original Buddhists (not the Ambedkarite version which is more political in nature). Without Hindus, especially brahmins who brought in their moral, spiritual and intellectual background into these religions and sustained them after the demise of the founders, it is doubtful whether both the religions would have survived, developed and matured into the force that they are today. This is common knowledge, for anybody with even a decent bit of knowledge about the history of the Indian religions. And even in today's political scenario, the affluent JainA merchant class is amongst the most generous contributors to the BJP kitty. For along with the Hindus, they too identify with the BJPs ideals of a resurgent India, knowing fully well that "Hindu" includes them too. So why is a JainA scholar ignoring all these facts and taking pot-shots at Hinduism? What is his agenda? >You should know perfectly well that your attitudes are not representative >of the whole of Hindudom - fortunately not. We know enough about India to >know that this kind of noisy polemic is insulting to a good many persons >who >consider themselves Hindu. It is also insulting to our intelligence. Well, if numbers be the judge, the BJP is the single biggest political party in the country. >If you wish to be taken seriously, please stop this kind of writing. As always, the feeling is mutual. And like others, I too would like to request more civility in future exchanges. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 05:25:34 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 05:25:34 +0000 Subject: Rajaram Episode Message-ID: <161227062045.23782.767128127528010389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hope the Frontline article reaches many Indians, >and not blocked by the powerful. Regarding Frontline - the magazine is so leftist that a couple of issues back they even went to the extent of supporting China's occupation of Tibet! The articles were written by Frontline's head honcho - N.Ram and his other leftist pal - Subramaniam Swamy. The world is unanimous in its condemnation of the Chinese in trying to alter the demography of Tibet and to erase its indegenous Buddhist culture. The Dalai Lama, a Nobel laureate, has spent almost his entire life fighting for the cause of his people and country and has the entire democratic world backing him in his struggle. But according to Frontline : Tibetean culture is primitive and the Dalai Lama is nothing but a devious and vindictive troublemaker. And it is the Chinese occupation which has brought in the benefits of modern life into the country and helped Tibet move out of its backwardness! This is Frontline for you! So small wonder that this magazine grabbed with both hands the opportunity to present the case of "Rajaram's horseplay"! Its sister publication - the Hindu - in an editorial a few weeks back claimed that Sanskrit has been a dead language for more than 2500 years! And why so? Because the Buddha didn't use Sanskrit, but Pali to communicate his teachings! That's the level of scholarship of the leftists! It is also surprising that M Witzel who had earlier criticized none other than Romila Thapar herself for using Indian literary sources uncritically in her books, is now seeking her endorsement of his "investigative" work. So has the scholarship of Ms Thapar suddenly risen in the eyes of M Witzel or is the recent bonhomie is a marraige of convenience? Integrity??? Honesty??? Does they still exist??? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 2 13:57:27 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 06:57:27 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism Message-ID: <161227062064.23782.16613323854223295557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In a recent post I quoted from D. Lorenzen (1995) to the effect that >"Hindu" as a religious category was not a colonial invention. Those >interested in a detailed analysis can now see: >Lorenzen, David N. 1999. Who Invented Hinduism? Comparative Studies in >Society and History 41, no. 4: 630-659. > Best, > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann In Jeffery Paine's Father India, a reference is given: John S. Hawley, Naming Hinduism, Wilson Quarterly, Summer 1991, 20-34. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 2 14:38:43 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 07:38:43 -0700 Subject: kuRuntokai 22 Message-ID: <161227062067.23782.992774037665023097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have you seen rA. rAkavaiyaGkAr's commentary on kuRuntokai? I think his urai on all of kuRuntokai has been published recently. Regards, SM --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > I have a question re KuRuntokai 22 which I reproduce > here for quick reference: > > nIrvAr kaNNai nIyiva Noziya > yArO pirikiR pavarE cAraR > cilampaNi koNTa valaJcuri marAattu > vEni laJcinai kamazum > tEmU roNNuta ninnoTuJ celavE. > > Loosely translated: > You're crying that you remain here > who'd want to part with you - > with a bright brow sweet as the fragrance of > the > right whorled white kadamba flowers > blooming on the mountain slopes in spring > > It's with you that he will go. > > In his commentary to this verse, U Ve cAminAtaiyar > writes, > > "ArrAmai mikka talaivi, 'yAro pirikiRpavarE' enRu tOzi > kURiya mAttirattil tuyar nIGkit talaiyetuttu nimirntu > nOkkinALAka, neRRiyin viLakkaGkANTA tOzi, " tEmu > roNNutal' enRu viLittAL." (kuRuntokai, u. Ve Ca., > kapIr Press, 4th impression, 1962, p 64) > > Loosely translated: > > The grieving heroine, feels cheered by her companion's > words "who would want to part with you" and looks up. > The companion observing the (now) shining forehead > calls it, "fragrant bright brow". > > It seems to me that this interpretation seems to, at > least implicitly, subscribe to the view that poetic > utterance has creative potential. In other words, > poems have a mantra like power. > > It may be noted that M. Shanmugam Pillai's usually > brief commentary does not contain this little > interpretative excursus for this verse. > > Can this interpretation be considered to be justified? > I'd like the list members view on this topic. > > Thanks and Warm Regards, > > LS > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Oct 2 08:59:38 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 10:59:38 +0200 Subject: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062053.23782.9301507330147781639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the message referred to below was directed at me personally, I will write some brief comments. Am 2 Oct 2000, um 3:42 schrieb nanda chandran: > schrieb RZ : > [...] > Yes, there was rivalry and OCCASIONALLY it went > beyond the boundaries of civility - but the JainAs were no means the > only people on the receiving end. When the king was a JainA, Hindus > too were persecuted. I would very much like to see examples of such cases. I have never come across any (despite my repeated requests in various forums, no one has provided any), and such information would be a genuinely interesting contribution that could lead to further investigation. (I am thinking of something like a text by a Jaina theoretician who advocates hatred and persecution against other religious communities, or justifies war for the spread of the religion.) > And why is there this attempt to identify JainAs and Buddhists as > entities apart from the Hindus. It is not an attempt, but a fact, unless one is not so strict in the use of one's terminology and states, e.g., > It was Hindus who created both religions - it was Hindus who > became followers of these religions - it was Hindus which implies that 'Hindus' are not the followers of a religion. Or are you talking about a religion within a religion? One must make up one's minds whether Hindus are a religious community or not, and then speak consistently. > and JainAs even today use brahmins for certain ceremonies Only in certain parts of northern India. In your native southern India, the Digambaras have no use of brahmins for anything but are totally autonomous and have their own priesthood. > and also inter-marry with Hindus. This is not relevant. I know of Hindus who have married Muslims: does this mean that Islam is Hindu? > Without Hindus, especially brahmins who brought > in their moral, spiritual and intellectual background into these > religions and sustained them after the demise of the founders, it is > doubtful whether both the religions would have survived, developed and > matured into the force that they are today. > > This is common knowledge, for anybody with even a decent bit of > knowledge about the history of the Indian religions. This is not at all "common knowledge", but a theological view of things that is not supported by historical research that is not a priori committed to such a theological view. > And even in today's political scenario, the affluent JainA merchant > class is amongst the most generous contributors to the BJP kitty. This is not relevant, even if it were completely true (which it is not). > For along with the Hindus, they too identify with the BJPs ideals > of a resurgent India, knowing fully well that "Hindu" includes them > too. This sweeping generalisation is not supported by reality. > So why is a JainA scholar ignoring all these facts and taking > pot-shots at Hinduism? What is his agenda? "Truth and integrity." Na j;naanena sad.r;sam, as the motto of Mysore University goes. Advancement of knowledge, as is the motto of Calcutta University. Your "facts" are not facts, hence there can be no question here of "pot-shots at Hinduism". > Well, if numbers be the judge, the BJP is the single biggest political > party in the country. (1) This is not relevant to the discussion, unless you believe that there is an intrinsic connection between Hinduism and the BJP (which is not). (2) Furthermore, the British Westminster system, which India adopted, is not the same as an opinion poll: you should know that it is possible in that system to capture 100% of the seats with 51% of the vote. (3) People vote for parties for a variety of reasons. It seems that there are too many fundamental differences of opinion between us for further discussion. I do not know your qualifications for participating in discussions here, but your writing suggests that you are not in touch with current research, nor with methods of scholarly enquiry. I am also disappointed to note that apparently you are not aware that there are Hindus and Hindus, just as there are Jainas and Jainas (etc.), and that this lack of awareness apparently motivates you to make vehement irresponsible statements in this forum. Sincerely, RZ From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Oct 2 08:59:38 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 10:59:38 +0200 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: <20001001132512.8588.qmail@web112.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <161227062056.23782.1725548626821405474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A reply to two recent messages is most relevant and called for in the context of the 'Rajaram episode'. Am 1 Oct 2000, um 6:25 schrieb Lakshmi Srinivas: > Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > [...] > btw, why do Dutch people complain so much about the German occupation > during WWII when they themselves > displaced/colonized/acculturated/killed off the Celts? Maybe the Dutch > should consider handing over their entire country, incl Leyden :-), to > the Irish who at least speak a Celtic language? Please note the following: (1) Nanda Chandran (an individual), who claims to speak for Hindus in general, talks of 'getting back' what he considers their 'most important temples'. On the other hand, I (also an individual) did not demand back anything, in the name of any group of people. (2) I do not complain about the German occupation (that took place a mere _two generations_ ago), because I know that it is wrong to do so. (Hence, too, my deep unbelief that a grudge in India about something that took place _centuries_ ago can be justified. In my humble opinion, it is a phoney excuse for something else...) (And BTW, I have nothing to do with Leiden. ;-) ) Am 1 Oct 2000, um 13:16 schrieb Arun Gupta: > Zydenbos writes : > > My reply : your contempt for Hindus is showing. (1) To be critical of Mr Chandran does not imply contempt for Hindus. There is a basic logical error in your reply. (2) You should have noticed that in that same message of mine I spoke up for other Hindus, viz. those who do not support the kind of views of which we should be critical. There have been a few requests here for courtesy. A first requirement in courteous correspondence is that one attentively reads what the other writes, instead of imputing what is not there. I most strongly object to the communalisation of these discussions, as is illustrated by the two messages referred to above. When I criticise Mr Chandran, I am not criticising any community of his. Neither should any community be arbitrarily ascribed to me (whose relatives are from nine countries and adhere to various religions) and be made the base for further, totally misplaced, criticism. To do so is not justifiable, nor can I call it courteous. I am grateful for the two abovementioned demonstrations of the communalistic mentality. They should give the readers on this list something to think about. The first thought that should arise is that any decent, rational discussion between persons becomes impossible if the communalistic mentality is at work. *This* is the issue under discussion here; this is what the 'Rajaram episode' is about, and L.M. Fosse has already eloquently argued why any decent person must oppose that mentality. A possible second thought is: how much courtesy do, for instance, wilful hate mongering and misinformation in any forum deserve? Particularly a forum that was originally meant for academic exchanges? I agree that basically, courtesy is a fine thing; but sometimes, its respectability is dubious. RZ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Oct 2 18:14:26 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 11:14:26 -0700 Subject: Rajaram Episode Message-ID: <161227062090.23782.17667442067422974687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta writes: > I ordered the two volumes, received them in three weeks, > and was able to locate Rajaram's "horse-seal" for myself; and I then > confirmed by the catalog number given by Witzel and Farmer. The broken edge > of the seal is clearly visible there, and the fact that it is not a horse. > > I conclude that Rajaram, with more resources and more friends in academe > than I, could have easily checked this most important point for himself You miss the point ?? or, rather, are doing everything in your power to evade it. Rajaram didn't make an error caused by a lack of resources. We have hard evidence that he possessed a good reproduction of Mackay 453. Instead of printing that reproduction in his book, he doctored it in his "computer enhancement" and published that instead. M. Witzel and I didn't attack Rajaram for scholarly sloppiness but for falsifying data to deceive the public -- with very big historical and political issues at stake. Unlike Arun Gupta, Samar Abbas *does* get the point, and expresses it with considerable eloquence: > It is not just one person - it is the whole Vedic Harappa theory that is > at stake here. The entire Vedic Indus hypothesis is now in severe danger > of going down with Rajaram. > > As Rajaram's model is the only Sanskritic model to date, and is now part > of Indian school curriculum, it is only natural that so much attention > should be focussed on it. Also, Rajaram said that he only cared about the > Indian press where "millions" read his work, and did not bother about > Western academic publications which "rot away in dusty library shelves". > It was essentially an open challenge to Indologists - which has now at > last been taken up in the only forum which Rajaram bothers about: the > Indian mass media. Demolishing his claims in Western journals would have > had no effect and would have been too kind. Our deconstruction of Rajaram wasn't an unkind act of scholars vs. scholars. Rajaram doesn't care a bit about what researchers think about him. He does care very much about his public image, however. The mess this is kicking up in India -- including the attacks on M. Witzel and me as buddies of communists, etc. (see also recent IndianCivilization posts! -- shows how much trouble Rajaram's crowd is in. S. Farmer From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Mon Oct 2 15:22:23 2000 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 11:22:23 -0400 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062076.23782.4305690017091178629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> '>'schrieb RZ : '>' '>'>Perhaps that overwhelming Hindu majority could consider returning all the '>'>Jaina and Buddhist structures to their erstwhile owners first, before '>'>raving '>'>about what the Muslims later did to brahminical structures? Why such a '>'>partisan attitude? (Sorry if the desire for 'truth and integrity' in some '>'>of us, '>'>which you expressly say not to believe in, asks such questions.) '>' '>'Though others have already commented on such ridiculous questions, I too '>'would like to point out a few things. '>' '>'Yes, I observe that whenever the tolerant nature of the Hindu religion is '>'brought up RZ without fail will raise these questions -"Thirujnaanasambandar '>'killed a lot of JainAs" etc. Why is this? How many such instances are there '>'when Hindus "destroyed" JainA temples or defaced JainA idols? Yes, there was '>'rivalry and OCCASIONALLY it went beyond the boundaries of civility - but the '>'JainAs were no means the only people on the receiving end. When the king was '>'a JainA, Hindus too were persecuted. Anyway such instances, which are '>'totally '>'incompatible with the fundemental teachings of both religions, were '>'exceptions rather than the norm. Thirujnaanasamndar did not kill Jainas as you claim. The stroy is: there was a debate and the condition was whoever got defeated they have to be put to death - and this was requested by the Jainas not saivites. Thus the king is said to have hanged all those Jainas who got defeated. Whether this incident is true or not is not clear. About 'taking over Temples', there is an ancient struggle- a case of a Siva Temple being taken over by Jainas and Thirunaavukkaracar (simply known as 'appar') reclaimed it by non-violent protests including by fasting etc. A true forerunner of Mahatma Gandhi. C.R.Selvakumar From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Oct 2 16:00:14 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 12:00:14 -0400 Subject: Rajaram Episode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062078.23782.3956863058871590244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote, wrong on two counts: >It is also surprising that M Witzel who had earlier criticized none other >than Romila Thapar herself for using Indian literary sources uncritically in >her books, is now seeking her endorsement of his "investigative" work. I did not seek R.Thapar's endorsement, FRONTLINE did, as clearly printed in the inset. Can my critic not read?? But, I agree with her assesment of the situation. See my (earlier) R&J website (of August, 2000) >So has the scholarship of Ms Thapar suddenly risen in the eyes of M Witzel or >is the recent bonhomie is a marraige of convenience? To quote Nietzsche: "Die Schlange, welche sich nicht haeuten kann, geht zu Grunde. Ebenso die Geister, welche man verhindert, ihre Meinungen zu wechseln; sie hoeren auf, Geist zu sein." Fr. Nietzsche, Morgenroethe 5.573 (1881) Nanda Chandran imagines too much of politics in all of this. Typical: conspiracies upon conspiracies. He does not seem to understand the process of scholarship which is a dialectic business. People actually *change*, unlike Acalanaatha Rajaram, in their opinions and assessments when new materials and evidence come up. So has she, so have I. Read her 1968 lecture at the IHC and her more recent papers. And read my assessment of the whole 'REWRITING of History' movement, to be out soon enough. Why should I agree with *everything* R.Thapar or, for that matter, with what R.Kochhar, have ever written ((as I was recently 'accused' of, chumming up to: why *should* I? I simply find his book much better than almost all on the question, but I do not endorse each sentence )). Ours is not party politics or party line writing (inspite of my recent atiraatra anointment, into the PCIs) but it is concerned with evaluation of facts and opinions based on them, as they appear in print and/or become available. In the world of Nanda Chandran and many others who wrote here recently, apparently only black/white, 'right/left' exist. >Integrity??? Honesty??? Does they still exist??? Maybe Nanda Chandran, honestly and with integrity, agrees with everything that has ever been written on this list? Since he makes use of it and posts --many-- letters to it. Compliment returned to sender! *** *** *** FINALLY, as for the dozens of other recent messages here and elsewhere: * If memory serves well, I have not yet seen anybody who defended Rajaram's "horse" or his 'decipherment', which was the core of our 10 pp. paper, save the last page; --- bull and "A great disgrace indeed" (R&J) remain. * instead, people here and on other lists (& copied even to unrelated ones!) get exited just about the use of the word 'fascist'. As far as I (and an impartial word search) can see, S. Farmer and I have used it ONCE, on the last page, and not even about the PRESENT situation: " It is the responsibility of every researcher to oppose these tendencies with the only sure weapon available - hard evidence. If reactionary trends in Indian history find further political support, we risk seeing violent repeats in the coming decades of the fascist extremes of the past. " Again, can they not read?? We talk about the fascists of the past (who, *not mentioned here* but known to historians and many educated people, indeed used much of the same terminology and methods can see now), and we simply *warn* about the future. I suggest to our critics: READ CLOSELY, and only then write the next effusion! ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Oct 2 19:22:53 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 12:22:53 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism In-Reply-To: <20001002135727.5797.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062095.23782.7667926960831330571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:57 AM 10/02/2000 -0700, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: Quoting LGR: >>In a recent post I quoted from D. Lorenzen (1995) to the effect that >>"Hindu" as a religious category was not a colonial invention. Those >>interested in a detailed analysis can now see: >>Lorenzen, David N. 1999. Who Invented Hinduism? Comparative Studies in >>Society and History 41, no. 4: 630-659. > >> Best, >> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann SM: > In Jeffery Paine's Father India, a reference is given: > John S. Hawley, Naming Hinduism, > Wilson Quarterly, Summer 1991, 20-34. This article is one of the many mentioned and discussed by Lorenzen. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Oct 2 06:55:06 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 12:25:06 +0530 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062050.23782.7982147642218764214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 2 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote:"Without ... brahmins ...it is > doubtful whether [ Buddhism & Jainism ] would have survived,developed > and matured into the force that they are today. The Rajaram episode has once again brought forth the much-discussed topic of Hindu-Buddhist conflict. However, all dispute on this topic can now be put to rest, with the most detailed book ever devoted to this question having been published : - `Decline and Fall of Buddhism' by Dr. K. Jamanadas, http://dalitstan.org/books/decline/ It seems the fall of Buddhism led to virtually all problems of modern India (quotations from the book): FALL OF SCIENCE: " Science was on zenith in Buddhist India and ... Brahmins purposefully caused its fall to uphold their own supremacy after the fall of Buddhism." Thus, illiteracy, poverty and decline of science resulted from the fall of Buddhism. LANGUAGE PROBLEM: "After the fall of Buddhism, Brahmanism not only divided the people into numerous castes ... but also divided the whole country into small segments ...on the basis of language." The present situation of conflict between states on the basis of language and consequently secessionism, is hence also due to fall of Buddhism. FOREIGN INVASIONS: "the assimilation of foreigners into Indian society took place not because of Brahmanism but because of the tenets of Buddhism which preached equality, liberty and brotherhood" This explains why assimilation did not take place after the 8th century. So Portuguese and Muslims were not assimilated. HINDU-MUSLIM CONFLICT: "Hindu Muslim Conflict would not have been there if Buddhism was alive at the time of Muslim invasion." Because Muslims would have been assimilated if Buddhism existed. NON-ASSIMILATION OF MUSLIMS: "because of the decline of Buddhism in India after the tenth century A. D., the mass of early medieval early Islamic followers in India could not be assimilated and digested by Indian Society." This is a suitable explanation for why the Parthains, Sakas, etc. were assimilated but not the Muslims. FOREIGN INVASIONS: "The north-western region of India was the gateway of all invaders and here it was that the Brahmans had one of their most important strongholds for many centuries, holding constant communication with foreigners such as the Greeks, the Turks, the Scythians, the Chinese and the Huns." [ http://dalitstan.org/books/decline/decline03.html ] This is the reason why so many waves of outsiders continued to invade India. STATUS OF WOMEN: The status of women was high in the Buddhist age, but decline along with Buddhism until finally, Sati, Dowry, etc. were re-introduced. KULINISM: "How this was created to increase the population who would be willing to accept the supremacy of Brahmins." Likewise, Devadasism, Dowry, Sati, Sambandhamm Kashmir etc. are discussed in great detail, and shown to be the result of the fall of Buddhism. Virtually all civilization of ancient North India (barring the indigenous Dravidian cultures of the South) was apparently the creation of Buddhists. Samar From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Oct 2 19:48:14 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 12:48:14 -0700 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062098.23782.779416961112840495.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:48 PM 10/02/2000 +0000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >Which takes one to a fundamental methodological problem, does it not? Under >the general description of "Hindu" as an inhabitant of the land east of the >Indus (especially true for 500-300 BC), Jains and Buddhists would be "Hindu" >in origin. But who uses this "general description"? Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, scholars? Didn't we go through this recently? >That apart, does anyone have a consistent and comprehensive >statement of Hindu-ism as defining *a* religious community? If so, I would >very much like to know what it is. Have you read the article by Lorenzen that I recommended? Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 14:51:42 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 14:51:42 +0000 Subject: Rajaram episode Message-ID: <161227062070.23782.5100590290770849571.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thiru. Vijayaraghavan ezuti_nAr(wrote): >Mr.Ganesan quotes from Robb to "prove" BJP, RSS and it's "parivar" are >fascist..... I don't want to "prove" today's BJP etc., are fascist. Just pointed to Jaffrelot's work where *he* discusses the historic connections between fascists and early RSS leaders. My interests are more towards the relations between the twon classical heritages - Tamil and Sanskrit. Thiru. Nanda Chandran ezuti_nAr: >Regarding Frontline - the magazine is so leftist .... May be N. Ram is leftist, (but he is very rich and lives in a big bungalow), but those who write articles come from non-communist backgrounds. Eg., the religious columns authors and Dr. Witzel, ... Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 16:32:20 2000 From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 16:32:20 +0000 Subject: Archaeology of India between 3000 BC and 600 BC Message-ID: <161227062059.23782.4720729706167214075.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shri Joshi, There are not only sites but cultures to fill in the gap between 300 BC and 3000 BC. These cultures are called as: 1) Post-Harappan Chalcolithic: Ahar, Malwa, Kaytha etc. 2) Deccan Chalcolithic: Jorwe etc, 3) Megalithic, 4) Ochre Coloured Pottery 5) Painted Grey ware and finally 6) Northern Black Polished ware. Please refer to any book of Protohistory for the information of these cultures. - Shreenand L. Bapat >From: "Narayan R. Joshi" >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Archaeology of India between 3000 BC and 600 BC >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:32:13 +0100 > >I see the discussion about the ancient history of India prior to 6th >century BC(the period of Jain Thirthankara Mahaveera) goes round and round >about PIE, horse, Mohenjodaro,undeciphered Indus script and excavated >Buddhist Stoopas and Viharas and Tamil language.Are there any >archaeological excavations and/or discoveries that could fill up the gap >between 600 BC and 3000 BC? For example who were in the south India when >the Jewish king Soloman (900BC to 1000BC)had trade contract with Indian >king or kings?Just saying that there were Aryan people or Dravidian people >or mixture of both does not tell us anything.Portraying the picture of the >ancient Indian civilization in one way or in another way makes no sense >without the sufficient archaeological excavations.We need research papers >and information without premature position papers from either side. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 16:40:19 2000 From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 16:40:19 +0000 Subject: Quest for Material Culture of the Grammatical Texts Message-ID: <161227062062.23782.6085303313083033088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: SHREENAND BAPAT >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Quest for Material Culture of the Grammatical Texts >Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:40:14 IST > >Respected Scholars of the "Indology" Group, >I am working for my doctoral research on the above mentioned topic. I have >browsed the important and original books and articles on the subject. Can >anyone furnish any other bibliographic references to the topic ? >Requesting you for such references, >Thanking you, >- Shreenand L. Bapat. >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From fo0a006 at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Mon Oct 2 15:02:45 2000 From: fo0a006 at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 17:02:45 +0200 Subject: Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project: New Webpage] Message-ID: <161227062073.23782.15261746646478162655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been asked to forward this to the list by Michael Zimmerman. Harunaga Isaacson Hamburg University > We are pleased to announce that the Nepal-German >Manuscript Preservation Project (NGMPP) now has >its own webpage. > >For information on activities of the NGMPP and >for contact details: > > >http://www.uni-hamburg.de/Wiss/FB/10/IndienS/NGMPP/index.html From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 17:48:21 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 17:48:21 +0000 Subject: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062087.23782.1591179737757495024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > It was Hindus who created both religions - it was Hindus who > > became followers of these religions - it was Hindus > >which implies that 'Hindus' are not the followers of a religion. Or are >you talking about a religion within a religion? One must make up >one's minds whether Hindus are a religious community or not, and >then speak consistently. Which takes one to a fundamental methodological problem, does it not? Under the general description of "Hindu" as an inhabitant of the land east of the Indus (especially true for 500-300 BC), Jains and Buddhists would be "Hindu" in origin. That apart, does anyone have a consistent and comprehensive statement of Hindu-ism as defining *a* religious community? If so, I would very much like to know what it is. Re: contemporary Jains associated with BJP, perhaps it would interest people to know that many Swetambar Jain Acharyas are nowadays closely associated with VHP. It might be a more north Indian phenomenon than south Indian, but power equations in India are still largely decided by what happens in the north. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Oct 2 17:20:46 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 18:20:46 +0100 Subject: Rajaram Episode Message-ID: <161227062081.23782.5002601620790318375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To me, the arguments about the political aspects of Rajaram's writings are unconvincing. But they are also irrelevant. Of limited interest to you perhaps, but I completed my own test. Bookstore Tiedekirja (tiedekirja at tsv.fi) still sells "Corpus of Indus Seals and Inscriptions". I ordered the two volumes, received them in three weeks, and was able to locate Rajaram's "horse-seal" for myself; and I then confirmed by the catalog number given by Witzel and Farmer. The broken edge of the seal is clearly visible there, and the fact that it is not a horse. I conclude that Rajaram, with more resources and more friends in academe than I, could have easily checked this most important point for himself. -- I also suspect that the Romila Thapar Frontline article is going to be the first time the people who read it have been told by someone from the Indian History-writing Establishment that there was no Aryan invasion (as in wars and fighting) but an incursion of Aryan language/culture. In this too, Witzel and Farmer have rendered us all a service. -arun gupta From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Mon Oct 2 17:40:54 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 18:40:54 +0100 Subject: MEANING OF THE WORD - " JANTAR _ MANTAR " Message-ID: <161227062084.23782.12953550333769895218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was waiting to see if any one on this web site would clarify the meaning of the above mentioned word mentioned by Dr. Stone who thinks it means in this context as observatory . G.R. Kaye has written a book entitled, " A Guide to the Old Observatories at Delhi; Jaipur; Ujjain ; Benares " published in 1920, and republished by The Academic Press, Gurgaon, Haryana, in 1985 . He also writes that the place was called Jantar Mantar even then. While the instruments made of brick etc have names such as Samrat ( Emperor ) Yantra etc. none of the instruments or mechanisms have the name Jantar Mantar . Who gave its name - Jantar Mantar ? Jantar is - Yantra . The letter Ya has different pronounciation in different regions of India . If we start from the South India , its pronounciation is as it should be in Sanskrit - it is Ya . As we move north, Ya gets changed to Ja . Secondly, in Yantra , tra gets changed to tar in the North India in local spoken languages . Hence, Yantra becomes Jantar . I am not a linguist but this what I have observed . Now , we come to the second word - Mantar . Here, using the same reasoning as before, Mantra becomes - Mantar . Hence Yantra - Mantra has become Jantar Mantar . Where is the Mantra in these instruments ? Usually, a Mantra is something which can not be explained by cause and effect relationships in common usage . Something that is not readily apparent . In which of these instruments is this applicable ? It is in the Samrat Instrument - The Sundial . There was no other dial then.In Europe, at that time the clocks were made which were small and accurate but the need was to know the longitude for sea farers. The need was very different . Here, it was for astronomy . Jaisingh did not rely on brass instruments which could not maintain allignments, and dimensional accuracy due to temperature changes . It was the need which determined the type of construction. In Jaisingh's instruments bigger gave better resolution i.e., smallest unit of time which one could see . Thanks. Anand M. Sharan From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 18:50:10 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 18:50:10 +0000 Subject: Persecutin by/on Jains Message-ID: <161227062093.23782.4170761071437263851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Zydenbos wrote: >I would very much like to see examples of such cases. I have never >come across any (despite my repeated requests in various forums, >no one has provided any), and such information would be a >genuinely interesting contribution that could lead to further >investigation. (I am thinking of something like a text by a Jaina >theoretician who advocates hatred and persecution against other >religious communities, or justifies war for the spread of the religion.) Don't know a tamil jaina text mentioning this. But remember during the sectarian rivalries, many heretic texts, buddhist and jain, were destroyed for centuries by Shaivism and Vaishnavism in TN. The charges levied against Jainas by Shaivaite saints of 7-9th centuries are analyzed in: 1) A. Veluppillai, "The Hindu Confrontation with the Jaina and the Buddhist. Saint Tirunanacampantar's Polemical Writings", The Problem of Ritual, ed. T. Ahlback ( ?bo (Finland): The Donner Institute for Research in Religious and Cultural History, 1993), pp. 335- 364. 2) Indira V. Peterson, "Srama.nas against the Tamil way: Jains as Others in Tamil "Saiva literature, p. 163-186 in Open Boundaries, Jain communities and cultures in Indian history, ed., J. E. Cort, SUNY, 1998. (John Cort's volume has an article by Richard Davis on some shaiva rituals coming from Jainism). PeriyapurANam, the most popular of all Tamil purANas, describes many Jain kings torturing Shaivaites. You can get an idea from a liberal translation: G. Vanmikanathan, Periya puranam, a Tamil classic on the great Saiva saints of South India / by Sekkizhaar ; condensed English version by G. Vanmikanathan. Madras : Sri Ramakrishna Math, 1985. xvi, 578, xvi p. : ill. ; 22 cm. Jains trying to destroy Shaivaite poems/poets by burning, drowning in floods etc., is elaborated there. The periyapuraaNam section right at this place of impalement seems to have been broken away and missing (Acc. to Prof. A. Veluppillai in his paper cited above). Note that periyapurANam has no critical edition. Unlike Tevaram which atleast has a critical edition by Murray S. Rajam/T. V. Gopalaiyar from French Inst. at Pondichery (this edition also does not use all mss.). Because of the breaks, it is hard to say whether Jains got onto the stacks voluntarily or by the king's guards. But note that PeriyapurANam myth could well be a later myth created with no truth in it. See Prof. A. Veluppillai's message: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9912&L=indology&P=R4260 It is important that no inscriptions mention about Jains being impaled in Madurai or elsewhere in Tamil Nadu. But I heard the AblUr (abalUru) inscriptions in Karnataka mention Veerashaivaites killing Jainas. Is this correct? Any references? In late 19th century, Arumuka Navalar of Jaffna and other Tamils opposed conversion to Christianity by referring to ThirugnAnasambandhar's activities at Madurai converting the Pandyan king from Jainism. Kaasivaasi CentinAthaiyar wrote a booklet (full of aagama and tevaram quotes) titled, "Srii cIkAzip peruvAzvi_n cIvakAruNya mATci" defending Sambandhar's involvement in the impaling of (8000) Jainas. (I was thanked by Dr. Indira in her paper for giving a copy :-) ). My knowledge of Jaina works in Tamil is very little, but there are vast sources still untapped. Jains introduced the maNipravAla style (sriipuraaNam, mErumantarapurANam, ...) which later was used by Srivaishnava commentators. Jain influence in TN can be seen in personal name endings: "cAmi" ( --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Have you seen rA. rAkavaiyaGkAr's commentary on > kuRuntokai? > I think his urai on all of kuRuntokai has been > published > recently. Well, his kuRuntokai viLakkam (kv) which contains the urai for the first 111 verses was published by Annamalai U in 1983. It contains a foreword by A. citamparanAta ceTTiyAr which is basically a review of the entire commentary. Sri ceTTiyAr does say in his foreword that this is an outgrowth of rA. rAkavaiyaGkAr's lectures at Annamalai U on the kuRuntokai and has *the U Ve Ca urai" as the basis text. The commentary to this verse in the kv is brief. For the most part, it dwells on the usage "cAraRcilampu", quoting paripATal 6 and tiruvAymozi 3.3.9. But it does have the line "kaNNiRku ayalatAya nutal utan celaviR kamazum enRatanAl kaNkaL mikak kaLittal kuRittAL" and some more extra poetic statements. So I don't know if that's a traditional understanding or if the kv is influenced by the u Ve Ca commentary. I was (and am still) under the impression that this kind of ascription of real life (and real time!) effects to poems was a late medieval tendency. For example stories of Kampan, auvaiyar etc have this element in them. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS > --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > > I have a question re KuRuntokai 22 which I > reproduce > > here for quick reference: > > > > nIrvAr kaNNai nIyiva Noziya > > yArO pirikiR pavarE cAraR > > cilampaNi koNTa valaJcuri marAattu > > vEni laJcinai kamazum > > tEmU roNNuta ninnoTuJ celavE. > > > > Loosely translated: > > You're crying that you remain here > > who'd want to part with you - > > with a bright brow sweet as the fragrance > of > > the > > right whorled white kadamba flowers > > blooming on the mountain slopes in spring > > > > It's with you that he will go. > > > > In his commentary to this verse, U Ve > cAminAtaiyar > > writes, > > > > "ArrAmai mikka talaivi, 'yAro pirikiRpavarE' enRu > tOzi > > kURiya mAttirattil tuyar nIGkit talaiyetuttu > nimirntu > > nOkkinALAka, neRRiyin viLakkaGkANTA tOzi, " tEmu > > roNNutal' enRu viLittAL." (kuRuntokai, u. Ve Ca., > > kapIr Press, 4th impression, 1962, p 64) > > > > Loosely translated: > > > > The grieving heroine, feels cheered by her > companion's > > words "who would want to part with you" and looks > up. > > The companion observing the (now) shining forehead > > calls it, "fragrant bright brow". > > > > It seems to me that this interpretation seems to, > at > > least implicitly, subscribe to the view that > poetic > > utterance has creative potential. In other words, > > poems have a mantra like power. > > > > It may be noted that M. Shanmugam Pillai's usually > > brief commentary does not contain this little > > interpretative excursus for this verse. > > > > Can this interpretation be considered to be > justified? > > I'd like the list members view on this topic. > > > > Thanks and Warm Regards, > > > > LS > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 > Free! > > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 > Free! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 2 22:09:40 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 22:09:40 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062104.23782.6277226840885431410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But who uses this "general description"? Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, >scholars? >Didn't we go through this recently? Yes, indeed. The term "Hinduism" may not be purely a colonial invention. But this does not imply that there is a valid contemporary description that is acceptable both to those who call themselves Hindus and those who study them academically. I agree with you and with Lorenzen that Hindu contrasted with Turk (or Musalman) meant something tangible for Kabir's audience. But I didn't find any answer to my question whether there was literary evidence for contrasting Hindu with Jain or Hindu with Buddhist in the same time period. If anything, Yashwant Malaiya responded to the effect that if there were such distinctions, they were minimal in the context of 15th century north India. Even today, you would be surprised at how fluid the boundary between Hindu and Jain is, among both Hindus and Jains in India. That scholars refuse to adequately recognize these things only complicates all these discussions. That is the methodological problem I am talking about. Discussing only whether it is of colonial origin or otherwise does not make the problem go away. It especially becomes important when a scholar insists that a lay person with no record of appreciating scholarly niceties should be "consistent" about whether Hindus form "a religious community" or not. There are too many problems with such a statement, not the least of which is that this forum is no longer just a group of scholars talking to one another. Zydenbos pointed out that in the south, Digambara Jains form a distinct community. Even here, one could not have a situation like the Dharmasthala temple, without substantial fuzziness of boundaries, or a willingness to overlook them. For those who don't know, Dharmasthala is now considered to be a Siva temple, with priests who are Vaishnava Madhvas, affiliated with the Udipi Matha(s), but the temple remains under the administration and control of a prominent Jain family. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Oct 2 21:24:31 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 00 22:24:31 +0100 Subject: Rajaram episode Message-ID: <161227062101.23782.17060474638614007266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Ganesan" To: Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 3:51 PM Subject: Re: Rajaram episode > Thiru. Vijayaraghavan ezuti_nAr(wrote): > >Mr.Ganesan quotes from Robb to "prove" BJP, RSS and it's "parivar" are > >fascist..... > > I don't want to "prove" today's BJP etc., are fascist. Just pointed to > Jaffrelot's work where *he* discusses the historic connections between > fascists and early RSS leaders. Why should anybody quote anything approvingly unless they want to prove something, especially considering your next statement that your interests are languages and not politics? About historical "connections" with fascists, you may forget about the wholesale colloboration of Indologists with nazis. Just few months back, i saw a BBC documentary (I think it was about the pull of Atlantis on Nazis) wherein Indologists addressed Nazi party to substantiate nazi theories. Indology at different times had placed itself at the disposal of colonialism, racism, fascism , German nationalism and other unsavoury ideologies. Compared to that RSS leaders, with it's very limited knowledge of fascists (or for that matter anything outside India) and it's main motive of anti-British feelings can be excused for writing few lines approving Nazis in 1938 My interests are more towards > the relations between the twon classical heritages - Tamil and Sanskrit. > > > > Regards, > N. Ganesan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 3 00:51:25 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 00:51:25 +0000 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism Message-ID: <161227062106.23782.8970320978586758827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I agree with you and with Lorenzen that Hindu contrasted with Turk (or >Musalman) meant something tangible for Kabir's audience. Even in the South, Vijayanagar kings held the title, "hiMdurAyasuratrANa". suratrANa and suratALu in Kannada inscriptions is evidently a sanskritization in 1350s of the term, sultan. This is much earlier than Kabir's times. In the Karnataka kings' titles Hindu obviously meant a religious category different from Muslims. Does Lorenzen discuss these inscriptions of the Vijayanagar era? Especially so when his earlier work on Kapalikas & Kalamukhas deals mainly with the Deccan. Best regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 3 01:38:15 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 01:38:15 +0000 Subject: Archaeology of India between 3000 BC and 600 BC Message-ID: <161227062109.23782.7323647224735656521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Narayan Joshi asked: >Are there any archaeological excavations and/or discoveries that could fill >up the gap between 600 BC and 3000 BC? For example who were in the south >India when the Jewish king Soloman (900BC to 1000BC) >had trade contract with Indian king or kings? T. W. Rhys Davids, Buddhist India, 1903 (reprinted 1997), p. 116 "These merchants were mostly Dravidians, not Aryans. Such Indian names of the goods imported as were adopted in the west (Solomon's ivory, apes and peacocks, for instance, and the word "rice") were adaptations, not of Sanskrit or Pali, but of Tamil words." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 3 04:56:54 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 04:56:54 +0000 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062114.23782.1880336010944243491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This is not relevant. I know of Hindus who have married Muslims: >does this mean that Islam is Hindu? To make such a statement you must either be ignorant or arguing just for the sake of the argument. Is the Hindu-Muslim union blessed by tradition? There are Vaishnava JainAs who if they do not find a suitable match within their own circles, will marry Vaishnava Hindus as the next alternative - they overlook other JainAs even. In matrimonial alliances, Hindus might even accept Christians but Muslims are on the other extreme end of the spectrum and such union will have little support from the community. Note a recent article by Tavleen Singh in "India Today", where she pointed out an incident where a Hindu girl abducted and "married" by a Muslim youth, were both beaten to death by a Hindu mob. As I said before, mere knowledge of Sanskrit or Indian literature will not enable one to truly understand intricacies of the Hindu psyche. Even if you lived in India, understand that there are things that people will not say explicitly - but still their actions will be guided by these unspoken attitudes. >This is not at all "common knowledge", but a theological view of >things that is not supported by historical research that is not a >priori committed to such a theological view. >This is not relevant, even if it were completely true (which it is not). >This sweeping generalisation is not supported by reality. I guess we've to take your word - the word of a non-Indian - for it! >I am also disappointed to note that apparently you are not aware that there >are Hindus and Hindus, just as there are Jainas and Jainas (etc.), and that >this lack of awareness apparently motivates you to make vehement >irresponsible statements in this forum. The problem is that you're trying to whittle down the differences between the "Hindus" and highlighting the differences between the "Hindus" and the JainAs. Both these positions are inherently flawed. Neither are all the "Hindus" alike nor are the JainAs totally different from the Hindus. Actually the differences between JainAs and certain sects of "Hindus" might be much slighter than differences between other sects of "Hindus". One of my friend's - an Iyer - wife is a Gujarati JainA, though born and brought up in Madras. Being vegetarian and from a Sanskritic background (that she could give a flawless rendering of Soundaryalahari was one of the points in her favor in the eyes of my friend's parents) she effortlessly moved in as the daughter-in-law of the brahmin household. This transition might not have been so smooth nor the match accepted, if she had been from other sects of Hinduism. The differences between JainAs and "Hindus" is not greatly different from the differences between smarthas, Vaishnavas, Madhvas, ShAktAists, Saiva Siddanthists etc. But when you bring in the Islamic factor, the JainAs merge into the "Hindu" fold, since like the Hindus they too suffered the same fate at the hands of fanatic iconoclasts and quite likely, for the Islamic conquerors they were never identified as an entity apart from the Hindu majority (which infact might have protected them from being singled out). >"Truth and integrity." Na j;naanena sad.r;sam, as the motto of >Mysore University goes. Advancement of knowledge, as is the >motto of Calcutta University. Your "facts" are not facts, hence there >can be no question here of "pot-shots at Hinduism". Given your line of reasoning, I somehow find this hard to believe. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM Tue Oct 3 05:22:47 2000 From: panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM (P. Anand) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 05:22:47 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062116.23782.4579689395781785767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: >To:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date:Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:25:06 +0530 > On 2 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote:"Without ... brahmins ...it is > > doubtful whether [ Buddhism & Jainism ] would have survived,developed > > and matured into the force that they are today. > > The Rajaram episode has once again brought forth the much-discussed topic > of Hindu-Buddhist conflict. However, all dispute on this topic can now > be put to rest, with the most detailed book ever devoted to this question > having been published : - > > `Decline and Fall of Buddhism' by Dr. K. Jamanadas, > http://dalitstan.org/books/decline/ > > It seems the fall of Buddhism led to virtually all problems of modern > India (quotations from the book): > > FALL OF SCIENCE: " Science was on zenith in Buddhist India and ... > Brahmins purposefully caused its fall to uphold their own supremacy > after the fall of Buddhism." > > Thus, illiteracy, poverty and decline of science resulted from the fall of > Buddhism. > > LANGUAGE PROBLEM: "After the fall of Buddhism, Brahmanism not only > divided the people into numerous castes ... but also divided the whole > country into small segments ...on the basis of language." > The present situation of conflict between states on the basis of language > and consequently secessionism, is hence also due to fall of Buddhism. > > FOREIGN INVASIONS: "the assimilation of foreigners into Indian > society took place not because of Brahmanism but because of the tenets > of Buddhism which preached equality, liberty and brotherhood" > > This explains why assimilation did not take place after the 8th century. > So Portuguese and Muslims were not assimilated. > > HINDU-MUSLIM CONFLICT: "Hindu Muslim Conflict would not have been > there if Buddhism was alive at the time of Muslim invasion." > > Because Muslims would have been assimilated if Buddhism existed. > > NON-ASSIMILATION OF MUSLIMS: "because of the decline of Buddhism > in India after the tenth century A. D., the mass of early medieval > early Islamic followers in India could not be assimilated and digested > by Indian Society." > > This is a suitable explanation for why the Parthains, Sakas, etc. were > assimilated but not the Muslims. > > FOREIGN INVASIONS: > "The north-western region of India was the gateway of all invaders and > here it was that the Brahmans had one of their most important > strongholds for many centuries, holding constant communication with > foreigners such as the Greeks, the Turks, the Scythians, the Chinese and > the Huns." [ http://dalitstan.org/books/decline/decline03.html ] > > This is the reason why so many waves of outsiders continued to invade > India. > > STATUS OF WOMEN: The status of women was high in the Buddhist age, but > decline along with Buddhism until finally, Sati, Dowry, etc. were > assimilated but not the Muslims. > > FOREIGN INVASIONS: > "The north-western region of India was the gateway of all invaders and > here it was that the Brahmans had one of their most important > strongholds for many centuries, holding constant communication with > foreigners such as the Greeks, the Turks, the Scythians, the Chinese and > the Huns." [ http://dalitstan.org/books/decline/decline03.html ] > > This is the reason why so many waves of outsiders continued to invade > India. > > STATUS OF WOMEN: The status of women was high in the Buddhist age, but > decline along with Buddhism until finally, Sati, Dowry, etc. were > re-introduced. > > KULINISM: "How this was created to increase the population > who would be willing to accept the supremacy of Brahmins." > > Likewise, Devadasism, Dowry, Sati, Sambandhamm Kashmir etc. are discussed > in great detail, and shown to be the result of the fall of Buddhism. > Virtually all civilization of ancient North India (barring the indigenous > Dravidian cultures of the South) was apparently the creation of Buddhists. > > Samar > _________________________________________________ Get Your Free Email At, http://www.rediffmail.com For fabulous shopping deals visit: http://www.rediff.co.in/shopping/index.html From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 3 06:13:25 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 06:13:25 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062119.23782.16737162630732116902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Just because a book says something does not make it >true. You may even find books arguing for a flat-earth >or alien-abduction. > Suggesting that a book praised at an avowed >anti-Hindu site is exhaustive and more believable >without any strong evidence >may be indicative of an anti-Hindu world-view. I think the best way to discourage such posts is to ignore them. BTW, what's Samar's interest in www.dalistan.org - indeed he seems to be the site's lone and vocal supporter! Is the site being funded by the ISI or say the National Minorities Commision? Considering the Dalits current problems in the country, it is strange that they're not harnessing all their energies against the BCs and OBCs (like the Goundar-Thevar-Vanniar nexus in TN) who're their main rivals in the reservation categories. Why all this invective against "Brahminism", which no more poses any threat to them? All this seems to follow a pattern - a political one at that. Why would the Muslims raise such a hue and cry about Hindus taking over an unused mosque at Ayodhya? Why are the Dalits fighting against Brahmins who're no more their detractors? Why is the RSS which has an undeniable history of social service labelled as facist, while outspokenly facist and racist organizations like the DK are glorified as "reform organizations"? Or why has the spectre of Hindu "fundamentalism" suddenly propped in the last few years in the Indian media, while clear cases of fundamentalism by "minorities" is ignored? Is there a group for its own political and social ends, which tries to pit groups against one another, maligns the names of groups opposed to its ideology by distorting facts and spreading misinformation? In this there seems to be only one target - traditional Hinduism. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 3 11:00:54 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 07:00:54 -0400 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT from SARAI Message-ID: <161227062121.23782.16532632402199833176.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the academic positions section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly for any further information. David Magier SARAI http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai -------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 19:36:46 -0400 From: Alan Godlas Organization: University of Georgia The Department of Religion at the University of Georgia is seeking candidates for a tenure track position in South Asian religions specializing in Theravada Buddhism and Hinduism with an emphasis on the philosophical dimension of these traditions. See the full description of the position at http://www.uga.edu/religion/southasianjob.html Any assistance of yours would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Dr. Alan Godlas Chair, Search Committee in South Asian Religions University of Georgia From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 3 14:42:03 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 07:42:03 -0700 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062124.23782.6653344468090874254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Prof. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > But such a direct acknowledgement by ancient non-Tamil Sanskritists may be > hard to come by from Sanskrit sources because of the linguistic attitudes > prevailing among the orthodox Sanskritists. (These attitudes have been > discussed by Madhav Deshpande in "Sociolinguistic Attitudes in India' and > "Sanskrit and Prakrit". ) Discussing the silence of the Gadyas of rAmAnuja > regarding the AzvArs, Vasudha Narayanan says, "ramAnuja intended his > philosophical works to be convincing to an audience of Brahmin scholars > outside the community, who might have been shocked by ascribing authority to > Tamil poems composed by poets of various castes. The Gadyas, however, have > always been used within the zrIvaiSNava community and are little known > outside it. It appears, therefore, that rAmAnuja was such a conservative > Brahmin that when he was writing in Sanskrit he did not make any explicit > reference to anything not written in Sanskrit." Is this not an attitude described by the IA expert Thieme? It is likely that this non-acknowledgement of foreign words is a major policy of the early Indo-Aryans by which they effected a language shift amidst Non-Aryans. Best regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 3 18:15:20 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 11:15:20 -0700 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062127.23782.11458108576146181234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Prof. Bharat Gupt wrote: > Why not just have categories like Atipraachiina, Praachiina and > Arvachiina bhaashaas for India. If Tamil and Sanskrit are found to > be present in all categories, what is wrong ? Exactly. Both Tamil and Sanskrit have material in "tolpaza-, mu_npaza-, pi_npaza- mozika.l" (Atipraachiina-, Prachiina- and arvachiina- bhaashaas). Regards, SM (For Tamilists: will "neruGkupazaiya-" or "aNmiyapazaiya-" fit better for "arvachiina bhaashaa" than "pi_npaza(m) mozi"?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Oct 4 00:14:23 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 17:14:23 -0700 Subject: Hinduism and Colonialism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062134.23782.15512523236887789709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 12:51 AM 10/03/2000 +0000, V. Iyer wrote: >Even in the South, Vijayanagar kings held the title, >"hiMdurAyasuratrANa"... >Does Lorenzen discuss these inscriptions of the Vijayanagar era? Yes, he does (p. 652), although not in much detail. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 4 03:53:01 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 20:53:01 -0700 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062139.23782.13243503755838198011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Robert Zydenbos wrote: <> My mind is clear. ?Hindus? do not make up a religious community. ?Hindu? has little to do with ?religion,? per se. At best, ?Hindu? implies a tentative community. By ?tentative? community, I look to the fact that, fundamentally, ?-isms? need not at all be conjoined to the various religious sectors of India, especially in so far as they attempt to discern the degree to which there is retention of, or origin in, a Brahmanical field; hence the traditional schemata, ?Brahmanical,? ?heretical? and ?foreign.? But ?gurus? in fact amount to the predominant religion in Indian society, as people typically belong to no church or temple but pay honor to their personal guru as a god, perhaps, and rely on him or her for their essential development. I would further suggest that the ?guru? in-itself is already ?heretical,? i.e., a tradition contrary to the Brahmanical institution of hereditary priesthood. 2. Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: <> I agree with you sir. But again, ?Hindu-ism? can only imply *a* ?tentative? religious community. The real culprit here is ?-ism.? I find attaching the suffix ??ism? to the end of all sorts of words is one of the most unacademically sound penchants we of the academic breed exhibit, and which, indeed, makes Hindu-?ism? a catchall term that ultimately defies any definition. I assume (correct me if I?m wrong) that Western ?scholarship? contrived the term in the early part of the 19th century. The Oxford English Dictionary traces ?Hindooism? to an 1829 reference in the Bengalee, 45, and refers to an 1853 usage by the German Indologist Max Muller. But a point worth restating is that as a modern term, ?Hindu? simply means ?Indian? or ?Made in India???A Product of Hindustan.? And as for the equally modern term ?India,? it appears as an early Hellenism whereby the Persian ?H? was changed to ?I.? As an ordained ?Buddhist? priest/monk of many years standing, I am perfectly willing to call myself ?Hindu,? at least in so far as my religion is [I am speaking rhetorically] ?Hindu.? What is more, I view the essential vitality of the ?cult? (i.e., ?this religion within a religion?) as inseparable from its greater Brahmanical field. And as for the founder of this tremendously long-lived religious movement, I would uncompromisingly identify him as a K.satriya-caste Hindu named Gautama. And in boldly underscoring his Indian-ness, I gladly part company with those who would persist in shoring up the walls of spiritual apartheid in attempt to partition Pan-Indian culture from their exclusive enclave of true salvation. Going a step further, I would also cast this Brahmano-Buddhic complex as intrinsically rooted in the Religion of the Mother that ?in ancient times reigned over an immense Aegeo-Afrasiatic territory and that has always been the major form of piety in India.? This is why Buddha, together with its ?-ism,? can never be conceived as something beyond, or incongruous with the aboriginal Indian premise. There is a very significant saying in India. ?Never compare the beauty of the daughter with that of the Mother.? Yet, then again, the ?Buddha-,? as distinct from the ?Jaina-cult,? has a particular relation to its Brahmanical field, as it largely exists in contradistinction to its misperceived notion of the meaning of Hindu. Best regards Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Oct 3 20:46:59 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 21:46:59 +0100 Subject: Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project: New Webpage] In-Reply-To: <39D8A395.13CDB56D@uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227062129.23782.16867503589984793272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks, Harunaga. I've added a link to the INDOLOGY pages, under libraries/Germany. Not sure if it shouldn't be /Nepal, but the web page and management is Hamburg, so that's it unless anyone is outraged. :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 4 06:19:38 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 23:19:38 -0700 Subject: yamunA river Message-ID: <161227062149.23782.15698371320533165157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re tozunai for Yamuna, please refer Hardy in Viraha Bhakti: This name can perhaps be connected with Tamil tozu 'cow-pen' and be compared with Sanskrit vraja- of a similar meaning. (p. 119, fn 3) Hope this helps, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 3 22:51:58 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 00 23:51:58 +0100 Subject: Rajaram Episode Message-ID: <161227062131.23782.8394022913669118986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2 Oct 2000 11:14:26 -0700, Steve Farmer wrote: >You miss the point ?? or, rather, are doing everything in your >power to evade it...... Sorry, you miss the point. I have no way of checking what Rajaram had in his possession. However I can check what Rajaram could easily have had in his possession. Moreover, anyone interested enough can do the check for themselves, so they don't have to trust me. After all, how do I establish that you have not been carried away by your anti-fascism ? Being "S.A. Farmer" or "M. Witzel" does not automatically make you trustworthy. If the political stakes are as large as you claim, all the more reason to be less trusting. As to "Vedic Harappans" being dead -- I don't think so, unless you, in turn, want to be deliberately misleading. "Vedic Harappans" does not die until the relationship between the Hakra/Ghagghar/Saraswati river and the Saraswati in the RigVeda is set to rest. Samar Abbas's claim that Rajaram's model is part of the Indian school curriculum is a worthless claim without more details. - There is no one Indian curriculum. At the national level there are at least two, one governmental and one non-govt. that I am aware of. Then, each of the states has its own curriculum. And there are private curricula. - Romila Thapar claims they did not get the school textbooks of the NCERT curriculum amended in 20 years to remove "Aryan Invasion" and replace by "Aryan incursion" because of the bureaucracy. I don't think our "fascist" friends, who are busy keeping coalition partners happy, while trying to take the necessary but unpopular economic decisions would make much headway on this. - There have been other allegations about the BJP government (e.g., the change of the charter of the ICHR) that do not appear to be true. -arun gupta From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 4 08:39:13 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 01:39:13 -0700 Subject: Neo-Orientalism (Was Re: RAJARAM EPISODE) Message-ID: <161227062157.23782.7644504753141383628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Neither should any community be > arbitrarily > ascribed to me (whose relatives are from nine > countries and adhere > to various religions) Is this what you declare at the Immigration counter when you go to India? :-) My own intention was however not to arbitrarily ascribe a community to you but to pose a scenario to you. You wanted the temples of the Jainas and Bauddhas restored to them, I urged you to be fair to the Celts :-) You wrote on Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:42:56 +0200: > Typically the talk of a mathematician: 'let x be > parallel to y,...' But who says that x and y are > parallel in the first place? I notice that somebody did object to this arbitrary ascription. You wrote on Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:08:13 +0200 > Perhaps it indeed is asking too much, :-))) after > the performances of 'scientists' on this list from > time to time. Let me assure you that > I have nothing against mathematicians per se; One more of those ascriptions! You wrote in reply to Chandran on Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:59:38 +0200 > I do not know your qualifications > for participating in discussions here, but your > writing suggests that you are not in touch with > current research, nor with methods of scholarly > enquiry. No doubt a scholarly warning but I'd like to draw RZ's attention to one of his posts dated Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:55:53 +0200 in the thread History of Mughalstan, a thread incidentally started by a habitual flame-thrower: > This is more of the same, viz. another faulty > comparison, this one popularised by Vivekananda, who > has done a lot to propagate the myth of 'spiritual > India' vis-a-vis the 'materialist West', where such > a contrast does not really exist; but the myth has a > certain political use Vivekananda (born January 12, 1863), RZ's pet peeve, yields precedence to popular novelists like Wilkie Collins in their formulations of Hindu spirituality. Consider, for example, the Prologue to his Moonstone (published 1868), held to be the first suspense novel in English: http://ofcn.org/cyber.serv/resource/bookshelf/mston10/prologue.html The contrast between the spirituality of Brahmins, the 'rapacity of the conquering Mohammedans' and last but not the least (the background to the story), the plundering, pillaging English is quite clear from this narrative. Wilkie Collins was a friend of Charles Dickens and, in his own lifetime, was arguably more popular even than Dickens. You might also want to read the novel 'Kim' by Rudyard Kipling (published 1901?) for his detailed remarks on oriental spirituality. Or some of his poems, The Road to Mandalay for the contrast between East and West. This is just a sample. Evidently RZ's bookshelf does not run to Victorian era productions. I daresay even Indological scholars need to do background reading before they 'establish their qualifications' (RZ's words) to participate in discussions on meta-Indological issues. But as for name calling ?! > > I am grateful for the two abovementioned > demonstrations of the > communalistic mentality. They should give the > readers on this list > something to think about. Your gratitude does you credit but are you on a soap box here? Anyway this sloganeering just reminds me of an Intifada time cartoon in which a Nazi urges a Palestinian stone thrower not to be beastly to the Israelis since the Jews suffered so much during World War II. If, according to you, one individual seemed to speak for all Hindus, you do seem to discourse like you have cornered the market on humanism, pacifism as well as liberalism and all the other desirable qualities that give a warm and fuzzy feeling to an Indological do-gooder, figuratively speaking :-). In other words, you seem to speak for all 'western scholars' whatever that stands for :-) > > The first thought that should arise is that any > decent, rational > discussion between persons becomes impossible if the > communalistic mentality is at work. *This* is the > issue under > discussion here; While on this soapbox, are you formulating an "Us" (internationalists) and "Them" (nationalists, called communalists by you) position here? In one of your posts (already cited above) for example, on : Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:55:53 +0200, you write > India should be compared not with any single > European country, but with Europe as a whole. (I > have in fact been arguing this, also in print, > for at least eleven years.) I guess eleven long years of thoughts which must be understood as a form of ill-conceived neo-Orientalism since it only serves the interest of the emerging post Cold War Colonialist force viz., globalization. Perhaps we should call it ideological globalization. Consider Said paraphrasing Mayoshi et al "There has emerged a new transnational order in which states no longer have borders, labor and income are subject only to global managers, and colonialism has reappeared in the subservience of the South to the North". (E. Said, Orientalism, Vintage Books, New York, 1979, p. 349) My primary objection to your neo-Orientalist discourse as well as to that of others who are mired in obsolete Orientalist perceptions of Hindutva e.g., the yugAnta thesis, is that it lacks sympathy for the peoples it purports to study. The yugAnta type formulation is clearly retrograde and is certainly reminiscent of Paul Johnson. "In the April 18, 1993 issue of the New York Times Magazine, by no means a marginal publication, Johnson published an essay entitled "Colonialism's Back - And Not a Moment Too Soon," whose main idea was that "the civilized nations" ought to take it upon themselves to re-colonize Third World countires "where the most basic conditions of civilized life had broken down," " etc etc . (ibid., p. 347-48) While clearly serving the purpose of internationalism (and consequently a devious sub-nationalism), RZ et al mode of discourse does not have the theoretical apparatus to deal with or otherwise take a scholarly view of multi-cultural nationalism. That is why you can engage only circus clowns like Rajaram but not their Indian opponents. I'm afraid a spade has been called a bloody shovel because many of the scholars (incl RZ) seem to be way out of their areas of specialization, way out of their depth in a subject of considerable complexity and stuck in a state of ideological constipation. They are therefore reduced to name calling. Maybe name calling is the appropriate strategy to deal with Rajaram-ites but there are others too on this list. Needless to say, this is quite outside of any discussion of the Rajaram episode and concerns only RZ's mode of discourse. We need hardly discuss Rajaram in this thread because it doesn't take much to hit a sixer off a full toss, even people who hadn't heard of Vedic orality until recently seem to be doing such a good job of it :-). Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 4 10:45:54 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 03:45:54 -0700 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062164.23782.16342288571146250887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: <<...does anyone have a consistent and comprehensive statement of Hindu-ism as defining *a* religious community? If so, I would very much like to know what it is.>> Dear Sir, Echoing the sentiment of Santosh N. Desai in his _Hinduism in Thai Life_ (Bombay: Popular Prakashan, 1980), 2-3, n., I would submit the following ? if only a gambit ? in attempt to formulate a consistent and comprehensive statement on Hindu-ism as defining a religious community: The term ?Hindu? can only be used in a broad cultural-anthropological sense vis-?-vis artifacts derived or developed from the civilizations east of the Indus River, particularly before the arrival of Islam. This definition would include Aboriginal as well as non-Aboriginal components, Aryanism and non-Aryanism, Vedism, orthodox Braahmanism, the Bhakti traditions as practiced in Vai.s.navism and Zaivism, and the Zakti-cult as well. The "heterodox" philosophies of Jainism, Buddhism, et al, would also form part of it. Most civily yours, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 04:18:30 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 04:18:30 +0000 Subject: yamunA river Message-ID: <161227062142.23782.6919760017088249894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The river yamunaa has been called as "to_lunai" in the Tamil sangam texts onwards. On the banks of to_lunai (in Mathura and Brindavan), Krishna danced and played with the cowherd women. Literary examples where yamunA river is to_lunai: 1) akanA_nURu 59 (sangam text) "... vaTAatu, vaNpu_nal to_lunai vaarmaNal aka_nRuRai aNTar makaLir taNTa_lai uTIiyar maraJcela mititta mAal pOlap ..." maturai maruta_niLa nAka_nAr 2) pa_lamo_li 13 vi_lumi_lai nallAr veruLpiNaipOl nOkkam ke_lumiya nANai maRaikkum - to_lunaiyuL mAlaiyuL mAlai mayakkuRut tALaHtAl cAlpi_naic cAlpaRukku mARu. 3) cilappatikAram aaycciyar kuravai (A famous cowherdess song set to music) vaJcaJ ceytA_n to_lunaip pu_naluL neJcaG kavarntAL niRaiye_n kOyAm neJcaG kavarntAL niRaiyum vaLaiyum vaJcaJ ceytA_n vaTive_n kOyAm. Take a look at the geographical origin of yamunaa, Yamunotri(Jamnotri) in http://www.probys.com/sarasvati/harkidunmap.jpg Also, a map of the river yamunaa in a wider area from Dr. Kalyanaraman's website: http://www.probys.com/sarasvati/vedicsaras1.jpg The Har-ki-dun glacier supplies water to Yamuna from the times Sarasvati river started going dry. Prayag/Allahabad refers to a sangam of Sarasvati, Yamuna and Ganges rivers. In the Har-ki-doon glacier map, a river "tons" is marked. Does "tons" have any connection with "to_lunai", the tamil name for yamunaa? "The Yamuna is also mentioned by Arrian, Indica 4, 3 as Iobares (usually corrected to Iomanes) and by Pliny as Iomanes. It is interesting to note that Iomanes seems to go back (through the contemporary histories of Alexander) to Sanskrit YamunA, while Ptolemy's Diamounas probably corresponds to Prakrit JamunA." (Dr. Karttunen in Indology). Does -b- in Iobares denote a -v- in *yavuna? Will show shortly how yamuna/yavuna can come from tamil "to_lunai" with comparative examples. "Returning to the Rgvedic period, and turning further east from the SarasvatI-DRSadvatI area, the next larger stream encountered is the YamunA, the modern JamnA (Gr. Diamounas, Iomanes, Von Hinuber 1985:1110). The name is clearly iA (EWA II 401, connected with yama- 'twin'), though with a rare suffix -una/--unA found only in a few words such as Var-uNa, tar-uNa. Why should the YamunA be a sister stream in the RV? Its confluence with the GaGgaa is not yet in view of Rgvedic poets. The sister stream might be the (great) SarasvatI. A mythological possibility, however, exists, with the two branches of the Milky Way (Witzel 1984)." (M. Witzel, p. 377, Aryan and Non-Aryan in India, 1999). The -unA/-una suffix is easily explained by considering the tamil name of the yamunA. Ie., "to_lunai". Let us then consider the front portion of to_lunai. Drav. to_lunai > Drav. *co_lunai. Compare with Tamil "tOkai"="cOkai"=feather, sheath in sugarcane plant etc., DED 2348 Ka. sOge the peculiar leaf of palms, sugar cane, and peacock's feather(s), Kol.(Kin.) cOga namli -male peacock Cf. 2916 Ta. tOkai. There are many others like this with t- & c- as initial letters. DED 2359 Ta. cO.lam, co_n_nal maize great millet, Sorghum vulgare. Ma. cO.lam id. To. swi-.lm, Ka. jO.la a generic name for several species of millet [...] Tel. jonna, jonnalu .../ Similar words in IA, eg., Skt. yavanAla-. See Turner, s.v. junelo. So, just as tam. cO.lam > Skt. yavanaala, tamil to_lunai/*co_lunai can turn into yamunaa in sanskrit. The -m- & -v- are interchangeable in loanwords in Sanskrit, (eg., dramiDa/draviDa = tami_l) and, -m- was obviously chosen so that yam- is "twin" with Sarasvati river. Any Comments are appreciated on this relation between tamil "to_lunai" and sanskrit "yamunaa". Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 4 03:19:34 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 04:19:34 +0100 Subject: Book on Mathematics by Jain author Message-ID: <161227062137.23782.349511210510657140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where could I find a Jain book on Mathematics called "Shad-khandaagama" published by Jain Sanskriti Mandala,Solapur,Maharashtra,India.I prefer the information about the sourse from US like University or College library or the publisher or the book store in US.Thanks. N.R.Joshi. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 04:55:47 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 04:55:47 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062144.23782.15199144154837678475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ven. Tantra" wrote, as part of a very eloquent post: >development. I would further suggest that the ?guru? >in-itself is already ?heretical,? i.e., a tradition >contrary to the Brahmanical institution of hereditary >priesthood. Not very much so, if non-heretical means "Brahminical". Already in chAndogya upanishad, you have the statement, AcAryavAn purusho veda. But if heresy simply refers to its etymological meaning of choice, yes, all isms in India are heresies, including the Brahminical institution of sacrificial priesthood. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 05:44:45 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 05:44:45 +0000 Subject: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062147.23782.7991556579534657395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RZ writes : >Please note the following: (1) Nanda Chandran (an individual), who >claims to speak for Hindus in general, Who am I? A politician to take such a stand? I only said that many Hindus feel that way. In the same vein are we to believe that when you clamoured for Hindus to return JainA and Buddhist temples, you were speaking for the said groups? >talks of 'getting back' what he considers their 'most important temples'. How can I get it back? I'm only arguing against the unfairness of the situation. This effort to tar me in "Hindu fundamentalist" colours, is so typical of Indian leftists who do the same with anybody who attempts to speak up for Hinduism. >On the other hand, I (also an individual) did not demand back anything, in >the name of any group of people. No, you didn't. You only tried to label Hinduism as "war mongering" and "preaching hatred towards other religions"! >You should have noticed that in that same message of mine I spoke up for >other Hindus, viz. those who do not support the kind of views of >which we should be critical. In short, those who agree with your views on India. For others who disagree, it is the guillotine, I guess! >When I criticise Mr Chandran, I am not criticising any community of >his. !!! >I am grateful for the two abovementioned demonstrations of the >communalistic mentality. They should give the readers on this list >something to think about. mirandavanukku irundathellaam peiyuu! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Oct 4 07:10:54 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 08:10:54 +0100 Subject: Civility on the List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062154.23782.6655286944766968890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the interests of civility, may I please suggest that members of the list avoid the words "heresy" and "heretic", which to the European ear have ineradicable connotations of the Inquisition and the stake? In any case, they should not be used about members of other religions, even those closely related to one's own--this usage seems to me as illogical (and potentially offensive) as if Jews and Christians were to call one another "heretics". I'm also not totally convinced of the usefulness of enquiring about the caste of one's fellow scholars. Dr Valerie J Roebuck (Buddhist, Mlecchii) Manchester, UK From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 4 15:23:16 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 08:23:16 -0700 Subject: Neo-Orientalism (Was Re: RAJARAM EPISODE) Message-ID: <161227062189.23782.16701736458337763103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > You might also want to read the novel 'Kim' by Rudyard > Kipling (published 1901?) for his detailed remarks on > oriental spirituality. Or some of his poems, The Road > to Mandalay for the contrast between East and West. > This is just a sample. E. Said's Culture and Imperialism discusses Kim and Kipling. In this later work, Said expands on his indictment, Orientalism which then was concerned only with the Middle East. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 08:43:44 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 08:43:44 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062159.23782.5561468955578236668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >.. you suggest that Muslims' interaction with Buddhists in India >would have been better than with "bad" Hindus .. Hmm, atlast some reaction from the normally calm and controlled Samar. Thanks for admitting your links with Islamic organizations - but can you be more specific? Also since you've levelled the charge at me that I'm in the pay of some Hindutva organization, it appears that you think that I'm a bird of your feather - so who pays you? ISI or NCM? >Such theories that Muslims destroyed Buddhism are simply illogical, >because : >1. First they shout, `Buddhism is a form of Hinduism' and then the >next moment `Evil bearded Muslims destroyed Buddhism'. If Buddhism did not >exist (ie. it was Hinduism anyway), how could Muslims have destroyed it ? >Apoint well-made at http://www.dalitstan.org/books/decline/decline01.html "Form" doesn't mean total identity. Yes, it is a form of Hinduism, but then they could still be identified distinctly as Buddhists apart from Hindus (which is not strange since even Vaishnavites and smarthAs can be identified distinctly as such). So Muslims destroyed that particular "form" of Hinduism. >2. How come Buddhism existed only in Eastern India ? What happened to the >well-attested Buddhism which existed in north India (Asokan inscriptions >in Afghanistan, Buddhist statues and stupas in Punjab) ? Or did the evil >Muslims convert the Buddhists to Hinduism there by mistake ? Or perhaps >they converted the Bengali Buddhists to Islam, and the Northern Buddhists >to Hinduism ? If Hindus can become Buddhists, can't Buddhists become Hindu too? >3. Buddhism was also predominant in South India - Ambedkar says they >formed the majority all across India. He could say that only if he had a time machine to go back and check the facts! Leaving aside Ambedkar's claims for the moment, it is true that Buddhism was widespread through South India at one point in time. But how did it spread? Due to the efforts of major personalities like NAgArjuna, DignAga, DharmakIrti etc (who were themselves originally brahmins). So it is only perfectly natural that if a even more charismatic religious figure like say ShankarAchArya or RAmAnuja appeared on the scene, the same Hindus who converted to Buddhism, would reconvert back to Hinduism (some particular form of it). >Why did the Muslims convert the Buddhists there to Hinduism instead of >Islam ? No they didn't. It happened much before they showed up in the sub-continent. >4. If the Muslims could destroy Buddhism in distant Bengal (thousands >of km away from Delhi), howcome they could not destroy Hinduism in >Haryana just south of Delhi or in nearby UP ? Buddhism is a peaceful and passive religion so folded up under the onslaught of Islam. But the Hindu variety in Haryana and Rajastan is a totally different cup of tea - they were stout fighters and so they survived. >The Buddhists themselves do not accept these claims of `Muslim >destruction', - just see the book `Decline and Fall of Buddhism'. Should we >go by what the Buddhists themselves think about how their religion was >destroyed, or what their ideological opponents claim ? Your logic is flawed - if Buddhism was destroyed, how could there be Buddhists today to talk about the "destruction of Buddhism"? So it follows that today's Buddhists aren't the original Buddhists. Today's Buddhists, the creation of Ambedkar are Buddhists due to political reasons and hence opposed to Hinduism. >The target of my posts to this list are not Hindutvadins - arguing with >them is always futile on account of certain inherent mental blocks. It is >the Westerners and Dravidianists on this list. The first are not to be fooled so easily. Though foreign scholars lack insight into the social conditions of today's India, still their textual knowledge is formidable. See if Lance Cousins, an acknowledged authority on Buddhism, will endorse the claims of www.dalistan.org. The Dravidians in their efforts to gain recognition for Tamil see an imaginary enemy in Brahmanical Hinduism and Sanskrit (this is Samar's interest in them). They think that it is the Brahmins who're opposed to the recognition of the greatness of their language. In this they forget the numerous brahmins who have contributed and enriched their language. If Tamil isn't recognized as a classical language today, it is only because of the Tamil peoples periodic bursts of linguistic chauvnism and anti-Brahminism. Let go of it and Brahmins themselves will fight for your cause. (Didn't we recently see a brahmin taking pride in his marathtamizh heritage over his Vedic heritage or another who sighed with frustration at the final recognition of the greatness of Tamil). It is our mother tongue too. >If they dare respond, they risk being made a laughing-stock in public. Now you've me running scared! >If I gave any Muslim site (of which there are many), you would of course >jump up and shout `evil bearded Muslim site for terrorists'. Why should I? You yourself have done the needful : "Also, those Islamist sites are too extreme". >I shall give Real Muslim sites only if somebody asks for them. Samar, please, can we have the URLs? >( like vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM aka nanda chandran and of course Vishal Agarwal) Are you saying Vishal and I are the same person? If you go through the Indology archives you'll see that I'm an older member on this list than Vishal and have never been expelled. So what's the need for me to post from another address? Also there are quite a few people on this list who've known me for a long time from other lists. And anybody Indian would clear recognize Vishal as distinctively North Indian, while I'm a South Indian. Guess, RZ's disease is contagious - you're getting paranoid - seeing Hindutvavaadis everywhere! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 4 14:46:45 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 10:46:45 -0400 Subject: November flames Message-ID: <161227062182.23782.2187898462266072096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would our founder care to speculate on why November should be the culmination of flames? Or should we discuss that on a meta-indological list? (Pithy enough for you, Dominic?) Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 4 14:59:26 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 10:59:26 -0400 Subject: Finding books : a librarian's hint Message-ID: <161227062187.23782.6934777244058233406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May I suggest to people on the list that they can usually go to their college library and search OCLC and RLIN, gigantic online union catalogs now rapidly expanding from North America to Europe and Japan, to find where copies of the books they want are? Indeed access to these can be found at some public libraries as well. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Wed Oct 4 10:00:15 2000 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 11:00:15 +0100 Subject: Rajaram Episode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062162.23782.16325178736520995049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta wrote: >As to "Vedic Harappans" being dead -- I don't think so, unless you, >in turn, want to be deliberately misleading. "Vedic Harappans" does not die >until the relationship between the Hakra/Ghagghar/Saraswati river and the >Saraswati in the RigVeda is set to rest. Well, I think this can be turned upside down, i.e. "Vedic Harappans doe not "live" until... Jon. From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 4 15:27:09 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 11:27:09 -0400 Subject: parallels to a key word in a Sunda/Upasunda story Message-ID: <161227062192.23782.14303363532510956308.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In Hitopadeza 4.8 (or 9, depending on the version), in the story of Sunda and Upasunda they fight over a woman (here ParvatI), and decide to appeal to an arbiter (pramANapuruSa), who here is in fact Ziva. Are there parallels to this account in which a similar word for a judge or arbiter appears (or even the same word--it is this word I am in fact interested in)? (In MBh I.201-204 there is no judge--they just fight and kill each other, as of course ultimately they do in Hitopadeza too). Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Oct 4 11:02:10 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 12:02:10 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: <20001004104554.10523.qmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062166.23782.8131332840130178488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra wrote: > >The term ?Hindu? can only be used in a broad >cultural-anthropological sense vis-?-vis artifacts >derived or developed from the civilizations east of >the Indus River, particularly before the arrival of >Islam. This definition would include Aboriginal as >well as non-Aboriginal components, Aryanism and >non-Aryanism, Vedism, orthodox Braahmanism, the Bhakti >traditions as practiced in Vai.s.navism and Zaivism, >and the Zakti-cult as well. The "heterodox" >philosophies of Jainism, Buddhism, et al, would also >form part of it. The trouble with this is that it means that you are seeking to define others according to your own ideas, rather than respecting the way in which they see themselves. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Wed Oct 4 06:37:04 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 12:07:04 +0530 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: <20001003052247.19980.qmail@mailweb15.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <161227062152.23782.4478292540445775401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, P. Anand wrote: > .. you suggest that Muslims' interaction with Buddhists in India > would have been better than with "bad" Hindus .. Such theories that Muslims destroyed Buddhism are simply illogical, because : 1. First they shout, `Buddhism is a form of Hinduism' and then the next moment `Evil bearded Muslims destroyed Buddhism'. If Buddhism did not exist (ie. it was Hinduism anyway), how could Muslims have destroyed it ? Apoint well-made at http://www.dalitstan.org/books/decline/decline01.html 2. How come Buddhism existed only in Eastern India ? What happened to the well-attested Buddhism which existed in north India (Asokan inscriptions in Afghanistan, Buddhist statues and stupas in Punjab) ? Or did the evil Muslims convert the Buddhists to Hinduism there by mistake ? Or perhaps they converted the Bengali Buddhists to Islam, and the Northern Buddhists to Hinduism ? 3. Buddhism was also predominant in South India - Ambedkar says they formed the majority all across India. Why did the Muslims convert the Buddhists there to Hinduism instead of Islam ? 4. If the Muslims could destroy Buddhism in distant Bengal (thousands of km away from Delhi), howcome they could not destroy Hinduism in Haryana just south of Delhi or in nearby UP ? > 2) Romila Thapar, "A History of India", page 263-264. "The coming of > Islam was the final blow ... the attacks on the monasteries resulted > in an exodus of Buddhists from eastern India to south-east Asia. Islam > found its largest following in previously Buddhist areas of India, the > north-west and the east." So the esteemed Thapar is now saying that the Buddhists of eastern India migrated to Thailand and Malaysia, ie. that the Vietnamese are Bengalis by descent. Anything to prove that Buddhism was destroyed by `marauding Muslims'. Surely, another wonder of Pseudo-Secularism. Reminds one of the Urdu-from-Prakrit theory, which the likes of Thapar et al so loudly parrot over and over again. BTW what is Romila Thapar's caste ? She is an upper-caste Punjabi, but is she a Brahmin ? She is definitely not a Buddhist. The Buddhists themselves do not accept these claims of `Muslim destruction', - just see the book `Decline and Fall of Buddhism'. Should we go by what the Buddhists themselves think about how their religion was destroyed, or what their ideological opponents claim ? nanda chandran wrote: > I think the best way to discourage such posts is to ignore them. The target of my posts to this list are not Hindutvadins - arguing with them is always futile on account of certain inherent mental blocks. It is the Westerners and Dravidianists on this list. If I wanted to convince Sanghis, or merely offend them, I would be posting to various lists on hindunet.org. Hindutvadins are advised to ignore my posts - as I said, they are not for them. If they dare respond, they risk being made a laughing-stock in public. Responses from Dravidianists, Westerners and non-hotmail Hindutvadins only shall be replied to in a scholarly manner, not those from hotmail Sanghis. > BTW, what's Samar's interest in www.dalistan.org - indeed he seems to be > the site's lone and vocal supporter! If I gave any Muslim site (of which there are many), you would of course jump up and shout `evil bearded Muslim site for terrorists'. So I chose to cite from a `fellow Aryan Hindu' Dalit website. Also, those Islamist sites are too extreme - so I don't give them out of kindness. We don't want anybody crying now, do we ? I shall give Real Muslim sites only if somebody asks for them. Till then, the relatively moderate Dravidian sites will do. Just because a handful of Hindutvadins flood indology hiding behind numerous aliases from free email accounts at hotmail ( like vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM aka nanda chandran and of course Vishal Agarwal) does not strengthen their case at all. These Hindutvadins are paid by various Hindutva organisations like BJP, etc. to make posts to this list, and, because they are regularly expelled, they have to hide behind these anonymous aliases, making virulent attacks. Samar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 4 11:12:11 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 12:12:11 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062169.23782.15056988454865246470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Okay, everyone. I think we're drifting off into silliness again on this thread. Please could you make a strong effort to stick to well-defined indological topics, and not to engage in long meandering assults on other-people's styles of discourse or communal affiliations. If it is of any help, I find that NOT using the "quote message" facility when replying to email can substantially raise the quality and intelligibility of what one writes. By contrast, interspersing quoted lines "> blah blah" with one's responses "You said blah blah, but that's because you're a twit" can lead to a self-indulgent, argumentative nit-picking style. It just seems to encourage one to take issue with every little thing that the other person has typed, rather than actually taking a moment to THINK. (Dare I suggest we could all think more and write less?) Thank you. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 4 11:20:26 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 12:20:26 +0100 Subject: November flames Message-ID: <161227062171.23782.521167642648227973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> November has traditionally been a bad month for flames and arguments on INDOLOGY. Things build up in October and get nasty in the following month. Can we stay one step ahead this year? I'd be very grateful if everyone would make a special effort not to argue, and to stick to short, pithy postings. More pith, pleath. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From jage at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 4 16:37:14 2000 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 12:37:14 -0400 Subject: November flames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062203.23782.1244451892406663850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Would our founder care to speculate on why November should be the > culmination of flames? Or should we discuss that on a > meta-indological list? > (Pithy enough for you, Dominic?) > > Allen Thrasher > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > > Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE > Southern Asia Section LJ-150 > Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 > Library of Congress U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 > Email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. > Wednesday, October 4, 2000 Guy Fawkes Day? Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From jage at LOC.GOV Wed Oct 4 16:37:14 2000 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 12:37:14 -0400 Subject: November flames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062422.23782.3134146399641022646.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > Would our founder care to speculate on why November should be the > culmination of flames? Or should we discuss that on a > meta-indological list? > (Pithy enough for you, Dominic?) > > Allen Thrasher > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > > Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE > Southern Asia Section LJ-150 > Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 > Library of Congress U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 > Email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. > Wednesday, October 4, 2000 Guy Fawkes Day? Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed Oct 4 12:08:28 2000 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 13:08:28 +0100 Subject: November flames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062174.23782.3721193256078412632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: >November has traditionally been a bad month for flames and arguments on >INDOLOGY. Things build up in October and get nasty in the following >month. > An interesting observation, and quite in accordance with hoary tradition: The Vedic zrautasUtras prescribe the sAkamedhAH, "the simultaneous kindling of fire" (one of the three seasonal rituals called cAturmAsya) for the KRttikA fullmoon night, and the nakSatra kRttikA is indeed associated with agni, fire. And the outbreak of the MahAbhArata battle is traditionally placed in the month of MArgazIrSa, quite understandably, because after the end of the rainy season the cool weather of late fall invites to warfare. Hope that this message meets the demand of pithiness, Georg v. Simson From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 4 12:49:29 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 13:49:29 +0100 Subject: "Sleeping Buddha" Message-ID: <161227062179.23782.3211409073111767489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last week in New Scientist magazine I saw an advertisement for British Airways (I think it was) which was promoting the idea that you could lie down and sleep in their airplanes. In 1st class, anyhow. The theme of the advert was the Buddha. First there was a pic of the Buddha sitting up, apparently alert. Then one of him lying at full length, on his side, resting on a pillow, exemplifying a restful journey. I thought that pose was, iconographically, always the mahaparinibbana. Am I right? It's nothing to do with having a nice rest, but rather to do with dying after eating poisoned food. Perhaps someone should tell BA? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Oct 4 12:17:19 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 14:17:19 +0200 Subject: Fw: The Buddha's withdrawal into Parinirvana Message-ID: <161227062176.23782.16468117073430479683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear collegues, I am afraid that political emotions aroused by the "Horseplay in Harappa" led us probably a bit too far so that sometimes we fail to responce to questions having purely Indological (and not political in any way) significance. In particular, to my great disappointment, nobody gave as yet an answer to a very interesting question put by Vladimir Shelkovich. Being myself very much interested in knowing an answer, I would ask specialists in Buddhism, Yoga, Anthrolology and other disciplines to reconsider the question. The way of Buddha's withdrawal into Parinirvana meant a revolution both in the yoga technique and in religious [psycho-]cosmology. That is why the question seems to me so important. Or maybe the specialists in these subjects have already left the list, except those of us who continue to participate in polemics over Rajaram's little pranks or the question what Indian language is more classical than others? Best regards Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vladimir Shelkovich" To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 11:04 AM Subject: The Buddha's withdrawal into Parinirvana > Dear colleagues, I would be most grateful if someone could help me with the following problem > concerning the Buddha's withdrawal into Nirvana: > > After going into a trance in order to enter Parinirvana, the Buddha followed a back-and-forth > motion, passing consecutively from the first stage of trance through the eighth, then passed again > through all the stages in reverse order from the eighth through the first and at last, > passing once more from the first to the fourth, he entered Parinirvana from the fourth stage > (The Maha-Parinibbana Suttanta,VI,11-13). The significance of the back-and-forth motion of the > Buddha on his way to Parinirvana is obvious, since it was his last trance. > > I was unable to find any interpretation of the back-and-forth motion of the Buddha and would > like to have the answers to the following questions: > > 1) Did anyone, except the Buddha, go into Nirvana in such a way? > > The cases of withdrawal into Nirvana which I know of started from the first stage of trance and > ended at the fourth, for instance, the case of Sariputta. > > 2) Is there any interpretation of the last trance of the Buddha? > > 3) Are there known any other rituals (may be, in other civilazations) connected with a specific > back-and-forth "motion": downwards-upwards-downwards-centre. > > Vladimir Shelkovich > > St. Petersburg, Russia, e-mail: shelkv at svm.abu.spb.ru > > --- > Vladimir Shelkovich (shelkv at svm.abu.spb.ru) > ABU > Sat, 30 Sep 100 11:55 +0300 MSK From panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 14:56:05 2000 From: panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM (P. Anand) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 14:56:05 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062184.23782.8536869255323131841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, P. Anand wrote: > > .. you suggest that Muslims' interaction with Buddhists in India > > would have been better than with "bad" Hindus .. > > Such theories that Muslims destroyed Buddhism are simply illogical, > because : First I wish to say that Buddhism was already in decline (according to the books I had cited) at the time of Turk/Muslim invasions. The quotes were merely to point out that interaction of Muslims and Buddhists in India was not as pleasant as you asserted. I should note that you ignored that one of the authors was a Buddhist (Bhikshu Sangharakshita) and one other was a christian/agnostic (A. L. Basham). You instead went after the caste of Romila Thapar. Should we ignore all that you have to say about Hinduism just because you have a Muslim sounding name ? I think not. We all have political and ideological biases. Should there be no discussion then ? The quotes talked about the facts (destruction of Buddhists monasteries and libraries) that could be shown to be wrong. A. L. Basham and R. Thapar have some reputation as Historians of ancient India. Given that the site you quote is not only ideologically anti-Hindu but is also highly political and anti-India, without strong evidence, one may not want to take seriously what it says about Hinduism/India. In the end evidence is more important wherever it comes from. The opinions of an ideologically baised individual on a subject without any evidence of reaserch does not have much value. One final note. Above authors do not say about the wholesale migration of people (your wrong inference about east-asian being bengalies), rather the migration of monks. Without the ideological bias, this inference from the quotes could not have been drawn. :- Pankaj > 1. First they shout, `Buddhism is a form of Hinduism' and then the > next moment `Evil bearded Muslims destroyed Buddhism'. If Buddhism did not > exist (ie. it was Hinduism anyway), how could Muslims have destroyed it ? > Apoint well-made at http://www.dalitstan.org/books/decline/decline01.html > > 2. How come Buddhism existed only in Eastern India ? What happened to the > well-attested Buddhism which existed in north India (Asokan inscriptions > in Afghanistan, Buddhist statues and stupas in Punjab) ? Or did the evil > Muslims convert the Buddhists to Hinduism there by mistake ? Or perhaps > they converted the Bengali Buddhists to Islam, and the Northern Buddhists > to Hinduism ? > > > 3. Buddhism was also predominant in South India - Ambedkar says they > formed the majority all across India. Why did the Muslims convert the > Buddhists there to Hinduism instead of Islam ? > > 4. If the Muslims could destroy Buddhism in distant Bengal (thousands > of km away from Delhi), howcome they could not destroy Hinduism in > Haryana just south of Delhi or in nearby UP ? > > > 2) Romila Thapar, "A History of India", page 263-264. "The coming of > > Islam was the final blow ... the attacks on the monasteries resulted > > So the esteemed Thapar is now saying that the Buddhists of eastern India > migrated to Thailand and Malaysia, ie. that the Vietnamese are Bengalis by > descent. Anything to prove that Buddhism was destroyed by `marauding > Muslims'. Surely, another wonder of Pseudo-Secularism. Reminds one of the > Urdu-from-Prakrit theory, which the likes of Thapar et al so loudly parrot > over and over again. > > BTW what is Romila Thapar's caste ? She is an upper-caste Punjabi, but is > she a Brahmin ? She is definitely not a Buddhist. The Buddhists themselves > do not accept these claims of `Muslim destruction', - just see the > book `Decline and Fall of Buddhism'. Should we go by what the Buddhists > themselves think about how their religion was destroyed, or what their > ideological opponents claim ? _________________________________________________ Get Your Free Email At, http://www.rediffmail.com For fabulous shopping deals visit: http://www.rediff.co.in/shopping/index.html From missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 15:29:55 2000 From: missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM (Narayan Sriranga Raja) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 15:29:55 +0000 Subject: Give me a tinkle (was Re: November flames) Message-ID: <161227062214.23782.15486855992427484996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik wrote: >More pith, pleath. Yeth! A man of my own kidney! :-) Raja. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 15:59:04 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 15:59:04 +0000 Subject: yamunA river Message-ID: <161227062195.23782.9683238439877967747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Re tozunai for Yamuna, please refer Hardy in Viraha >Bhakti: >This name can perhaps be connected with Tamil tozu >'cow-pen' and be compared with Sanskrit vraja- of a >similar meaning. (p. 119, fn 3) Yes. tozu and toRu both mean 'cattle shed'. Once George Hart pointed to the same word from Bronze age Minoan Crete to South India the same: "taurus" and tamil "toRu/tozu". Perhaps Fr. Heras in Proto-mediterranean culture, v.1. Today, I saw Ven. Tantra mentioning "an immense Aegeo-Afrasiatic territory". It is agreed by scholars Krishna fighting the seven bulls comes from Tamil. Erik Af Edholm and C. Suneson, The seven bulls and Krsna's marriage to Nila/Nappinnai in Sanskrit and Tamil literature, Temenos, v.8, p.29-53, 1972. Ulrike Niklas is publishing a tamil oral epic on bull fighting and F. Gros has done a translation of vATivAcal, a fine novel by C. S. Chellappa. maJciviraTTu, jallikkaTTu .. Thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 4 16:04:38 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 17:04:38 +0100 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062198.23782.2353930991170469262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> P. Anand wrote: > The quotes talked about the facts (destruction of Buddhists > monasteries and libraries) that could be shown to be wrong I am not sure if I have understood correctly what you are saying here but are you saying that Buddhist monasteries and temples were not destroyed by bands of marauding raiders (who happened to be Muslims) ? That Nalanda and other major monasteries with there libraries were destroyed by such people is well documented from Tibetan sources -- by an eye-witness account in the case of Chak Lotsawa. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 4 16:29:18 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 17:29:18 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062200.23782.17790326754661292488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: > As an ordained "Buddhist" priest/monk of many years > standing, I am perfectly willing to call myself > "Hindu," at least in so far as my religion is [I am > speaking rhetorically] "Hindu." As a former Buddhist monk myself, I am not at all willing to call myself "Hindu" as the term is both confusing and misleading -- not that I have any personal antagonism towards Hindus or anybody else. > And as for the founder of > this tremendously long-lived religious movement, I > would uncompromisingly identify him as a > K.satriya-caste Hindu named Gautama. And in boldly > underscoring his Indian-ness.... Do you mean he was a "Hindu" culturally or ethnically ? I suppose he was to a degree a "Hindu" (= central/north-eastern Indian) culturally although this may have been exaggerated by later hagiographers for obvious reasons. However, one could question whether he was a "Hindu" ethnically whatever that might mean -- as I said above, I think the term as you suggest using it is too vague and imprecise. Of course, one might use the word "Hindu" as an ethnic blanket term for anybody living in the Indian sub-continent but I believe it is not at all clear whether the inhabitants of the Shakyan polity including Gautama himself (and of the nearby V.rjian confederacy) were of Indo-Aryan origin -- given the proximity of those states to regions still inhabited by many people of Tibeto-Burman or Austro-Asiatic ethnicity. Also, how do we know that he was a k.satriya ? Did he actually say so himself or was this a label applied to his lineage by later "Hindus" in order to pigeonhole him into their views of societal organization ? Having made these points, I agree with the other sentiments expressed in your posting. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 4 16:49:45 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 17:49:45 +0100 Subject: kuRuntokai 22 Message-ID: <161227062206.23782.12443889397093063019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 1 Oct 2000 17:43:57 -0700, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > I have a question re KuRuntokai 22 which I reproduce >here for quick reference: > > nIrvAr kaNNai nIyiva Noziya > yArO pirikiR pavarE cAraR > cilampaNi koNTa valaJcuri marAattu > vEni laJcinai kamazum > tEmU roNNuta ninnoTuJ celavE. > > Loosely translated: > You're crying that you remain here > who'd want to part with you - > with a bright brow sweet as the fragrance of >the > right whorled white kadamba flowers > blooming on the mountain slopes in spring > > It's with you that he will go. > > In his commentary to this verse, U Ve cAminAtaiyar >writes, > >"ArrAmai mikka talaivi, 'yAro pirikiRpavarE' enRu tOzi >kURiya mAttirattil tuyar nIGkit talaiyetuttu nimirntu >nOkkinALAka, neRRiyin viLakkaGkANTA tOzi, " tEmu >roNNutal' enRu viLittAL." (kuRuntokai, u. Ve Ca., >kapIr Press, 4th impression, 1962, p 64) > >Loosely translated: > >The grieving heroine, feels cheered by her companion's >words "who would want to part with you" and looks up. >The companion observing the (now) shining forehead >calls it, "fragrant bright brow". > >It seems to me that this interpretation seems to, at >least implicitly, subscribe to the view that poetic >utterance has creative potential. In other words, >poems have a mantra like power. > >Can this interpretation be considered to be justified? >I'd like the list members view on this topic. I feel that we need not invoke mantra etc here. Simple human psyhcology is enough to explain the situation. Even the whole episode is expressed as a poem but we must separate that from the utterances referred to inside the poem. This poem belongs to the pAlai (desert) landscape/genre involving the theme of separation, either of the hero from the heroine or of both lovers from their parents by way of elopement. When it is the former, it is often not separation but impending separation. The hero has just announced his intent to depart to a far-off land, which can be symbolically reached only after crossing a desolate landscape, to seek wealth, fame or battle victory. The heroine is unable to bear the news and needs consolation, or the hero himself is torn between duty and family/romance. Real separation of lovers occurs mainly in mullai landscape; in mullai though impending arrival or reunion of lovers at the promied date is portrayed. This particular poem obviously refers to the impending separation of the hero from his lover. Viewed simply, as soon as the heorine hears the phrase "who [,ever,] would want to part with you" which gives hope that the hero himself may not bear to leave her behind, she feels uplifted and looks up... > >It may be noted that M. Shanmugam Pillai's usually >brief commentary does not contain this little >interpretative excursus for this verse. Neither does rA.raghava iyengAr's. To me it looks like an interesting but minor and harmless adornment by UVS. > >Thanks and Warm Regards, > >LS > Regards P.Chandrasekaran. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 4 18:38:43 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 18:38:43 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062208.23782.18056545215158115180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >obvious reasons. However, one could question whether he was a "Hindu" >ethnically whatever that might mean -- as I said above, I think the >term as you suggest using it is too vague and imprecise. Of course, The term Hindu has always been vague and imprecise, and always will be. It is more than a little irksome to hear a scholar say that contemporary Hindus should define themselves precisely, when he should really know better. It is tattvAnyatvAbhyAm anirvacanIya, and we like it that way. The very impreciseness of this term can be either a liability or an asset, depending on one's biases. Apparently, some biases are more respectable than others. I hate to get into post-modern fluff like "rigid masculine" vs. "fluid feminine", but that seems to be precisely the problem. I suppose nobody here needs to be reminded that casting Asia as a feminine entity was a significant feature of a very recent past. I'm not convinced that these attitudes have entirely disappeared still. >one might use the word "Hindu" as an ethnic blanket term for anybody >living in the Indian sub-continent but I believe it is not at all >clear whether the inhabitants of the Shakyan polity including Gautama >himself (and of the nearby V.rjian confederacy) were of Indo-Aryan >origin -- given the proximity of those states to regions still So here comes race again, when we were all just getting used to the idea that Aryan referred primarily to a linguistic category, irrespective of the racial origins of the speakers. Or is there any indication that the Sakyas spoke a dialect of non-Indo-Aryan identity? Irrespective of what later texts say about Gautama's genealogy, the frequency of early references to him as an Arya and to his teaching as Arya-dharma should also not go unnoticed. In either case, under this objection, most contemporary south Indians would not be "Hindu", including yours truly. They would not have been Hindu in Cankam times either, or for that matter, in later Cola and Pandya times. Conversely, if there has always been a substantial non-Indo-Aryan component to what is called "Hindu", as opposed to "Vedic", why not consider the Sakyas and Vrjis Hindu too, whatever the term may mean? Is there any valid theory that says that one non-Aryan thing is Hindu, and another non-Aryan thing from the same subcontinent is not Hindu? As I asked some five years ago on this list, at what point in space-time and owing to what reasons did the Indo-Aryan become a Hindu? Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 5 06:30:38 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 23:30:38 -0700 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062219.23782.3778101149143040812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The learned colleague Stephen Hodge wrote: 1. <> So long as we keep looking at the past, the past is bound to change, hence demanding fresh naming. We look to the remote past and call ourselves ?humanity.? We are bound to do that. We have a term ?Hindu,? but are not sure how to employ it, or what it means. It is both necessary and cool to try to come to terms. 2. <> This statement is significant. For I trust and respect that Mr. Hodge is not only a learned, but also a well traveled and networked gentleman. And I hasten to add that I myself have rarely encountered a designated ?Buddhist? with, as it were, ?open borders.? And this fact is both astounding and outrageous. So, the question arises: What on earth could compel a designated ?Buddhist? (person or church) to place an apparently irreconcilable point of contention between themselves and that which they perceive as something called ?Hindu?? This is serious. I offer the following. The original problem likely arose from the earliest polemics of the Buddhist church, as gleaned from the majority of the canonical texts, which ?allege an irreducible distance between the Enlightened One and his masters and contemporaries? (Eliade, Yoga, 162). At this early period, then, it could not have been an ?Us (Buddhist)? vs. ?Them (Hindu)? sort of thing at all. It was perhaps more simply the urge to create a culture hero and to set the Guru off as historically unique and without antecedent or peer amidst a rich and varied field of contending holy men, all of whom were players in a single broad generic field of religious asceticism (i.e., the same religion). And indeed, ?this is a polemic position, which requires [contemporary] rectification? (ibid). But what exactly is this irreconcilable ?point? of contention? Especially as this seemingly ?anachronistic? polemic continues to this day? It is this. It is the concept of anaatman (Paalii anatta). And I further suggest the ancient Sinhalese as the prime illustration of the truly contemporary socio-pathological consequence. It essentially stemmed from political motives, or else it was created out of fear and the want to engineer and maintain a position of conflicting theological, cultural, ethnic and thereby heightened political divergence between themselves and their rival Hindu monarchs across the narrow Palk Strait in India. In other words, I trace the ?disease? of contemporary Buddhism, particularly prevalent among the ?Theravaada? designation, to a Hindu-phobic id?e-fixe, which if not altogether manufactured by the ancient Sinhalese, they certainly exemplify. In short, by taking this core-Buddhist concept of anaatman and bending it all out of sane recognition by its rearticulation in ways and idioms deemed incompatible with non-Buddhist thought, the Buddhists have essentially cursed themselves to be perpetually hung up on this very exceedingly obvious Pan-Indian doctrine of ?non-entity.? Most sincerely, Ven. Tanta __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 4 22:44:10 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 23:44:10 +0100 Subject: parallels to a key word in a Sunda/Upasunda story Message-ID: <161227062210.23782.8347077231076298236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the traidional south indian society, there used be an office of "Madhyasthan", which as the name implies middle man or arbitrator. I remember seeing this word appear in a Tamil inscription quoted in Burton Stein book "Peasant State and Society in Medievel South India" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Silk" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:27 PM Subject: parallels to a key word in a Sunda/Upasunda story > In Hitopadeza 4.8 (or 9, depending on the version), in the story of > Sunda and Upasunda they fight over a woman (here ParvatI), and decide > to appeal to an arbiter (pramANapuruSa), who here is in fact Ziva. > Are there parallels to this account in which a similar word for a > judge or arbiter appears (or even the same word--it is this word I am > in fact interested in)? (In MBh I.201-204 there is no judge--they > just fight and kill each other, as of course ultimately they do in > Hitopadeza too). > > > Jonathan Silk > > jonathan.silk at yale.edu > > Dept. of Religious Studies > Yale University > 320 Temple St. > New Haven CT 06520-8287 > USA > > tel. 203-432-0828 > fax. 203-432-7844 > From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 4 22:44:10 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 00 23:44:10 +0100 Subject: parallels to a key word in a Sunda/Upasunda story Message-ID: <161227062425.23782.14032336462661013087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the traidional south indian society, there used be an office of "Madhyasthan", which as the name implies middle man or arbitrator. I remember seeing this word appear in a Tamil inscription quoted in Burton Stein book "Peasant State and Society in Medievel South India" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Silk" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:27 PM Subject: parallels to a key word in a Sunda/Upasunda story > In Hitopadeza 4.8 (or 9, depending on the version), in the story of > Sunda and Upasunda they fight over a woman (here ParvatI), and decide > to appeal to an arbiter (pramANapuruSa), who here is in fact Ziva. > Are there parallels to this account in which a similar word for a > judge or arbiter appears (or even the same word--it is this word I am > in fact interested in)? (In MBh I.201-204 there is no judge--they > just fight and kill each other, as of course ultimately they do in > Hitopadeza too). > > > Jonathan Silk > > jonathan.silk at yale.edu > > Dept. of Religious Studies > Yale University > 320 Temple St. > New Haven CT 06520-8287 > USA > > tel. 203-432-0828 > fax. 203-432-7844 > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 4 23:57:43 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 00:57:43 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062212.23782.4655081743274499215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > It is more than a little irksome to hear a scholar say that contemporary Hindus > should define themselves precisely, when he should really know better. Am I supposed to have said this ?? Where ? It is not for me to say how contemporary Hindus should define themselves. The problem for me is when the term is applied retroactively to an era centuries before it was first coined -- hence my reply to the posting by Ven Tantra. I have no problems with Hindus (however they may define themselves) nor with Hinduism but I don't think it is helpful to lump Buddhists together with Hindus -- however you define the term. I have not encountered any Buddhists who would do so apart from Ven Tantra. > So here comes race again, when we were all just getting used to the idea > that Aryan referred primarily to a linguistic category, irrespective of the > racial origins of the speakers. Sorry, I realized I should have rephrased what I wrote just after I sent the msg. What I intended to imply was "but I believe it is not at all clear whether the inhabitants of the Shakyan polity including Gautama himself (and of the nearby V.rjian confederacy) were truly members of the normative religio-socio-cultural scene that obtained in the Ganges basin area that comprised Magadha, Kosala etc at the time (call it what you will)". This should be clear from a careful reading of what the Buddha himself taught. Thus the racial bit that you jumped on with such alacrity was NOT uppermost in my mind -- rather I was referring, perhaps a little clumsily for your liking, primarily to the socio-religious-cultural set-up. > an Arya and to his teaching as Arya-dharma should also not go unnoticed. Understood by Buddhists in the sense of "noble" -- hence neither a racial nor linguistic title but spiritual. > In either case, under this objection, most contemporary south Indians would > not be "Hindu", including yours truly. They would not have been Hindu in > Cankam times either, or for that matter, in later Cola and Pandya times. So how are you defining "Hindu" here ? An adherent of a particular set of religious views or an inhabitant of India ? Some precision would help. Since you say "*most* contemporary south Indians", who are the exceptions ? If I understand you correctly, you imply the religious sense. If so, I rest my case: Buddhists are not Hindus, although there is naturally some common ground. BTW do Keralan Christians consider themselves Hindus in any sense of the word ? > Conversely, if there has always been a substantial non-Indo-Aryan component > to what is called "Hindu", as opposed to "Vedic", why not consider the > Sakyas and Vrjis Hindu too, whatever the term may mean ? Why bother to use words at all if they have nor fixed meaning ? Or are you advocating the "humpty-dumpty" approach to semantics ? Do you mean "Hindu" as a "ethnic" category -- whoever might be included or as a religious category ? There seems a good parallel here with the word "Jew" -- is one a Jew by race, by religion or by both ? The same confusion I was objecting to would seem to arise if one were to substitute "Jew" for "Hindu" and "Christian" for "Buddhist" etc in this thread. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 05:56:04 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 05:56:04 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062217.23782.18202463762331487769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > should define themselves precisely, when he should really know >better. > >Am I supposed to have said this ?? Where ? It is not for me to say >how contemporary Hindus should define themselves. The problem for If you remember, this thread was started off by a comment to this effect by another. List discussions are always multi-centered conversations. And it is not a question of how Hindus should define themselves. It is a question of whether *anyone* can define Hinduism. And if contemporary Hindus do define themselves in whatever fashion, it is a question of whether such definition will be acceptable to those who study India academically. If an Asian/Indian Jain or Buddhist has no objections to calling herself a Hindu, an objection is raised against it. That presumes that there is a definition of "Hindu" that excludes them, and that is academically acceptable. I would like to know what that definition is. >is when the term is applied retroactively to an era centuries before >it was first coined -- hence my reply to the posting by Ven Tantra. What about the name given to the people of India in the earliest Greek sources? Not far removed in time from Gautama the Buddha. > > an Arya and to his teaching as Arya-dharma should also not go >unnoticed. > >Understood by Buddhists in the sense of "noble" -- hence neither a >racial nor linguistic title but spiritual. Well, till Indology came along, non-Buddhists in India also understood the word Arya to simply mean noble. >So how are you defining "Hindu" here ? An adherent of a particular >set of religious views or an inhabitant of India ? Some precision >would help. Since you say "*most* contemporary south Indians", who I am *not* defining Hindu at all. My whole point is that precision is impossible in this regard. Tough luck, if that causes problems for academic studies. Besides, I was reacting to your contention that Gautama could not be called a Hindu, because the Sakyas were not apparently Hindu, in whatever sense of the term. >are the exceptions ? If I understand you correctly, you imply the My point is that it is well nigh impossible to find exceptions. *If* the Sakyas were not "Hindu", because they may not have been Indo-Aryan, *then* the south Indian Dravidians were not "Hindu" either. Conversely, if the Dravidians were "Hindu", pray what made the Sakyas "non-Hindu"? This argument remains, irrespective of whether "Aryan" is a racial or a linguistic or a socio-political-cultural category pertaining to the Magadha-Kosala region in the 5th cent. BCE. >religious sense. If so, I rest my case: Buddhists are not Hindus, >although there is naturally some common ground. BTW do Keralan >Christians consider themselves Hindus in any sense of the word ? Take a look at the matrimonial ads in Indian newspapers, where all sorts of things are possible, including a category of "Brahmin Christians". > >Why bother to use words at all if they have nor fixed meaning ? Or That is a rather strange position for a Buddhist to take! I didn't suppose that an inseparable relation between word and meaning was a feature of any school of Buddhism. By the way, I jumped upon the racial connotation of "Aryan" in your previous post with alacrity, precisely to point out that words can be and are used in very imprecise ways, and that they also change their meaning with time. >are you advocating the >"humpty-dumpty" approach to semantics ? Do you mean "Hindu" as a Not me. My point is simply that Indologists have to come to terms with the very nebulous nature of the word "Hindu-ism" when they talk with contemporary Indians who are usually called "Hindus". If anyone cares to notice, no Indian source ever used the word Hindu, till first the Middle East and then Europe impinged upon India in a big way. Some have "humpty-dumpty-ness" thrust upon them. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 09:08:08 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 09:08:08 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062225.23782.16160867690819690705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie J Roebuck writes : >The trouble with this is that it means that you are seeking to define >others according to your own ideas, rather than respecting the way in which >they see themselves. And how would you know that? If you're neither a Hindu or Bauddha or JainA - in short if you aren't one of us - how would you know how we view ourselves? I don't mean to offend, but am just stating a fact. Isn't the attitude that you ascribe to Ven Tantra, the very attitude taken by European historians? How well do you know us to conclude what we are? Take this commonly used term "Hindu" as distinguished from JainA and Bauddha. Can you cite a single instance from any pre-colonial JainA or Bauddha literature where the followers of SanAtana Dharma are referred to as Hindus? Does the Buddha or MahAveera refer to us that way? It is always brAhmana or shrAmana or the follower of this or that school - like Bauddha or JainA, it would be NaiyAyika or VedAnti or Shaiva or Vaishnava - but never Hindu. Yet you unhesitatingly brand us : "Hindu"! The term "Hindu" is basically a term used to denote those who like east of the river Sindhu or Indu or Hindu and so includes JainAs, Bauddhas as well as those who follow SanAtana Dharma. Stephen Hodge writes : >As a former Buddhist monk myself, I am not at all willing to call >myself "Hindu" as the term is both confusing and misleading There is a fundamental difference between Western Buddhism and Asian Buddhism - one being spread in the modern day and the other with a history of ancient traditions. Asian Buddhism was basically spread by Indian monks and so there's still a traditional connection with the home of the religion. While Western Buddhism was imported into the West by Westerners themselves upon discovering the "rational" religion of the Buddha as opposed to the dogmatism of the Semitic religions - here rationality itself is a double edge sword since that might well exclude the trappings of tradition which is so important in forming the identity of the practitioner. So an American Buddhist could well be a Buddhist with no links to the country which gave birth to the religion - for him it is the dharma and Buddhist metaphysics that matters more than tradition - it is the modern attitude. But this is not the case with traditional proslytization where much of East Asia adopted the Buddhist way of life - there the tradition as taught by Indian monks formed an essential part of the conversion - hence the dream of many East Asians to be born in India during the life of the next Buddha. Yes, DT Suzuki and the Dalai Lama too have contributed to the spread of the religion in the West, but still that's not the same as getting it from India. Also notice the importance given to Tibetean culture amongst the Western practitioners of MahAyAna - likewise if you'd got it from India in the days of old, you would have identified yourself differently. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From dbgray62 at HOME.COM Thu Oct 5 13:37:36 2000 From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 09:37:36 -0400 Subject: Grant Announcement Message-ID: <161227062243.23782.7647183762294502794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology list members, On behalf of the Infinity Foundation I'd like to bring to your attention the following Call for Grant Proposals. If you are interested please follow the URL below and follow the information there provided; please do not post questions to this list. Yours, David Gray The Infinity Foundation 53 White Oak Drive Princeton, NJ 08540 Phone: 609-683-8161 Fax: 609-252-0480 Call For Grant Proposals The Infinity Foundation, a non-profit, charitable foundation, is calling for project proposals to do research and/or develop educational materials, in order to improve the authenticity of portrayal of Indic traditions in the educational system. These projects can either contribute to the growing body of knowledge concerning India?s contributions to world civilization, or critique the ways in which Indic traditions are currently portrayed in educational curricula. All interested parties will be required to submit a C.V. and project proposal. For more information concerning the proposal submission process and the Infinity Foundation, see its web site at: http://www.infinityfoundation.com/callforgrantproposals.htm From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Thu Oct 5 13:40:09 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 09:40:09 -0400 Subject: Indology in Russian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062245.23782.16814583428406686330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List: Is there a large body of writing on Indology in Russian? I am attracted to Russian for other reasons, and wonder whether it would make sense to learn it as the required European language for graduate work in Indology. Pip From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 09:41:49 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 09:41:49 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others Message-ID: <161227062227.23782.4808614076162164546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Buddha was almost certainly of Tibeto-Burman or Mon-Khmer stock. >Buddha's birthplace being located well inside Nepal And I guess Siddhartha is a common Mongolian name and the gotram name Gautama, a common extent gotram of brahmins even today, is a common Mongolian name! Also how about MAyAdevi or RAhula or Suddhodana? Also note the historical account of SAkhyas committing incest to preserve the purity of the line quoted with pride by Gautama. And how would you explain Gautama's familiarity with brahmanical traditions, other Indian philosophical systems and his early brahmin teachers Alara Kalama and Uddhaka Ramaputta (brahmins in 500 BC teaching brahma vidya to mlecchas?). Also if he wasn't Indian, why did he not move east into Tibet/Burma - the land of his peoples in search of enlightenment, but rather moved towards the traditional "Hindu" holy place of VAranasi, attain his enlightenment in Gaya and spend forty years spreading his "purAna Arya dharma" in India - an alien land? And the Buddha's religion is not some primitive religion based merely on mystical experience. His is a sophisticated religion grounded in subtle dialectic and metaphysics with a well defined path towards salvation (this kind of salvation itself is pretty unique to India). Such a religion could hardly be a product of peoples lacking a well developed spiritual and philosophical consciousness - so Tibet and Burma which only received the religion almost a milleneum after the Buddha can be ruled out. Yes, I'm aware that people will still concoct reasons how all this was possible, but still it is much more natural when you assume he was a "Hindu" kshatriya. >I believe that upper caste Hindus can and should have their `Hindu > >Rashtra'.Partition is the only solution to the Hindu-Muslim conflict, > >because time and again we see that Hindus and Muslims cannot live > >together - they just start killing one another. On the contrary I think that it is a test of "Hindu" tolerance and civility to live peacefully with people of other religions - ofcourse we've no problem and it is pretty natural for us. We just have to make sure that "vested" interests do not incite the minorities and make them unreasonable and anti-national and exploit our tolerance. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Thu Oct 5 14:08:12 2000 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Kumar) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 10:08:12 -0400 Subject: Grant Announcement Message-ID: <161227062252.23782.4511576837999282663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I appreciate David Gray's posting to bring to our attention the grant proposal call from the Infinity Foundation. It will certainly help some list members. I am sure that there must be several other foundations which support scholarly work related to the field of indology. Where can we find information about these foundations? Alok Kumar From panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 10:27:41 2000 From: panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM (P. Anand) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 10:27:41 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062233.23782.4447276883987672210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------------- Original Message -------------- Stephen Hodge wrote: >P. Anand wrote: >> The quotes talked about the facts (destruction of Buddhists >> monasteries and libraries) that could be shown to be wrong >I am not sure if I have understood correctly what you are saying here >but are you saying that Buddhist monasteries and temples were not >destroyed by bands of marauding raiders (who happened to be Muslims) ? >That Nalanda and other major monasteries with there libraries were >destroyed by such people is well documented from Tibetan sources -- by >an eye-witness account in the case of Chak Lotsawa. First of all thanks for the information. However, I would like to make a few points. - I agree that one should avoid using religious categories in such discussions as far as possible. In this case it was necessary becuase of the post I was responding to. Also, I do not know what religion-neutral term can be used in general when discussing the invaders who were muslims. - In this specific case, the fact that the invaders had a different religion was definitely important. The invaders who were muslims rarely if ever destroyed mosques. As far as I know, there is no record of long-term systematic destruction of churches in Europe when European countries/kingdoms were at war for many centuries. Similarly, there is no such record of destruction when Indian (Hindu/Buddhist/Jain) kingdoms were at war among themeselves. Let me add that there will always be stray cases. - At least in India, Portuguese also destroyed many places of worship. I would think that they would not have destroyed if these places were roman catholic churches. My point being that one can not ignore the fact that invaders had different religion. In my view, in such cases, religious motivation should not be discounted without consideration. - I should also say that all this is important only as far as we want to know historical truth. This should not have any significant modern ramifications. Regards, :- Pankaj _________________________________________________ Get Your Free Email At, http://www.rediffmail.com For fabulous shopping deals visit: http://www.rediff.co.in/shopping/index.html From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Thu Oct 5 17:30:04 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 10:30:04 -0700 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062270.23782.15355496638320712143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar Abbas wrote: > So the esteemed Thapar is now saying that the Buddhists of eastern India > migrated to Thailand and Malaysia, ie. that the Vietnamese are Bengalis by > descent. Anything to prove that Buddhism was destroyed by `marauding > Muslims'. Surely, another wonder of Pseudo-Secularism. Reminds one of the > Urdu-from-Prakrit theory, which the likes of Thapar et al so loudly parrot > over and over again. Interesting that you sneak in your disapproval of the Urdu-from-Prakrit theory here... I seem to remember that your earlier arguments "in a scholarly manner", to wit, with members of this list got you nowhere. > It is the Westerners and Dravidianists on this list. Dravidian studies and issues have been bedevilled by either "prejudiced micromania" or a very "pronounced megalomania" (paraphrasing Kamil Zvelebil)... you may need to contend with this... beware ! -Srini. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Oct 5 08:46:05 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 10:46:05 +0200 Subject: Indian philosophy Message-ID: <161227062231.23782.9221805341812374525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Honored members of the list! Wanting to update my indological library, I would be grateful for some bibliographic advice on the latest, state-of-the art introductions to Indian philosophy. (Indian philosophy in general as well as more specialist studies of Vedanta, Samkhya etc.) All suggestions are appreciated! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 5 10:39:41 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 11:39:41 +0100 Subject: November flames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062237.23782.12868755731499320037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why November, Alan? Well, I've tended to think we all get ratty because of the pressures of student registration, missed course outline deadlines, lecture room double-bookings, disappearing teaching assistants, and the other joys of a new academic year. But Georg and James's answers are much better. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Oct 5 16:03:52 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 12:03:52 -0400 Subject: Indology in Russian Message-ID: <161227062259.23782.11438793540649547964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Didn't Wendy Doniger (O'Flaherty) write a survey of Russian Indology some years ago? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Oct 5 16:06:08 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 12:06:08 -0400 Subject: Book on Mathematics by Jain author Message-ID: <161227062262.23782.2479443715784337905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress has records for the title Sadkhandagama (originally Prakrit Chakkhandagama) as listed below (including the ed. mentioned in inkprint and in microfiche, and two others). Take these to your local university or public library and they can get them on interlibrary loan. The double angle brackets >> represent a macron (long mark) over the following vowel; your interlibrary loan librarian will be used to such typographic deficiencies. The ILL system is first supposed to try other libraries and then LC, but that's not something the user has to worry about. The fiche can be ordered from LC's Photoduplication Service (photoduplication at loc.gov), and prices and procedures found at its homepage . IMHO the prices are quite reasonable. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Oct 5 06:40:07 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 12:10:07 +0530 Subject: Buddhists and others In-Reply-To: <20001004145605.17964.qmail@mailweb14.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <161227062222.23782.4165815147368176113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: "It is not at all clear whether the inhabitants of > the Shakyan polity ... were of Indo-Aryan origin [as it's] still > inhabited by many people of Tibeto-Burman or Austro-Asiatic ethnicity. Agreed: Buddha was almost certainly of Tibeto-Burman or Mon-Khmer stock. Buddha's birthplace being located well inside Nepal [ http://home.att.net/~alterity/Buddh_Intro/Pages/N_India_Map.html ] and Nepal being still dominated by persons of Mongoloid origin, this seals the case. Many non-Aryan warrior tribes (including Mongoloids) are loosely referred to as `Kshatriya' - the Sakas, Huns and Parthians were designated as such, and indeed Muslims were also dubbed a kind of `Kshatriya'. Fuehrer himself believes that Buddha was of mixed IA-Mongoloid stock. This would render him a `non-Arya' - and indeed the Sakyas were considered as such because they could not inter-marry with other Kshatriyas. nanda chandran wrote: "Buddhism is a peaceful and passive religion so > folded up under the onslaught of Islam." For examples of destruction of Buddhist shrines, one does not even have to look. Tthe birthplace of Buddha itself is such an example: " the temple of Maya Devi was constructed over the foundations of more than one earlier temple or stupa, and that this temple was probably built on an Ashokan stupa itself." [http://www.buddhanet.net/lumbini.htm] This indicates repeated destructions, and repeated reconstructions by Buddhists. Apparently, the Buddhists lost the struggle in the end, for after the final destruction of Lumbini in the 4th century AD, the region was desolate until re-discovered in 1895, by Feuhrer [ his orig. paper is at : http://pears2.lib.ohio-state.edu/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/buh.htm ] This is what Fuehrer himself writes "for in Fahien's time, about A.D. 400, the country was already a wilderness" [ above url ]. Any psecs and sevaks wish to volunteer theories for a `Muslim destruction' of Lumbini in 400 AD before the rise of Islam ? Perhaps, one may find such a theory in one of Romila Thapar's books. I can well imagine her, dismissing Fuehrer's statement as `100 years old' and blaming `bearded Talibans in 300 AD' for it. Further information about the long-term destruction of Buddhism can be found at the political website of the Mongol National Organisation from Nepal [ http://members.tripod.com/~GopalGurung/ ]. Gopal Gurung lists dozens of Buddhist shrines which have been destroyed in recent years and in days long past. P.Anand : "Should we ignore all that you have to say about Hinduism just > because you have a Muslim sounding name ? I think not." Nice to meet open-minded persons from the other side. Unfortunately, those who are not as friendly form the majority. nanda chandran wrote: > Are you saying Vishal and I are the same person? I did not say that, just meant to say that it is easy to hide behind a hotmail address, that is all. And new hotmail addresses pop up again and again and then disappear. Vishal Agarwal has been expelled. And some other persons on this list are members of VHP etc. - the statement was not aimed at you. Of course anybody can see that you are a South Indian - your posts are far too mild. We all know that you are just a software engineer and part-time sympathiser of RSS. BTW I consider psecs more of a threat to Muslims than Hindutvadins. All that these guys are doing is to prolong the conflict and increase suffering on both sides by forcing different religions to co-exist. I believe that upper caste Hindus can and should have their `Hindu Rashtra'. Partition is the only solution to the Hindu-Muslim conflict, because time and again we see that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together - they just start killing one another. nanda chandran wrote: > Samar, please, can we have the URLs [of Islamist sites]? Ok, will start collecting and post them soon, (did not imagine that there would be demand for such sites among this audience !). Since attacks on Hindu Gods cannot be termed as `Indology', and these sites are highly offensive, I will have to make a separate post with adequate warnings. Samar From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 5 19:57:22 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 12:57:22 -0700 Subject: Inoculation Message-ID: <161227062287.23782.16486135081654444157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Wujastyk wrote: >The earliest evidence for smallpox inoculation (completely different from >vaccination, of course) comes from Chinese sources. More on this in >Chang's paper in the recently published Contagion book. >Inoculation was never "discovered" by western medicine. The practice was >noticed in the bazaars of Istanbul by Lady Wortley Montague in the >mid-eighteenth century, and she had her children inoculated. She then >carried out a personal campaign to promote inoculation back in >England. This was partly successful, though controversial. Inoculation >was eclipsed from the late 1790s by Jenner's famous discoveries. "The matter of Smallpox", 83-91, Samuel Wilson, The Emepror's giraffe and other stories of cultures in contact, Westview press, 1999. Enjoyed reading this book. "Jenner was not the first to notice that contracting cowpox could save a person from getting a fatal version of samallpox later. It was part of local knowledge in rural Britain. Milkmaids routinely caught cowpox; afterward, they almost never contracted smallpox. But Jenner's experiments convinced the medical community that immunization was the best way of fighting smallpox and made cowpox the method of choice. ... Inoculation with smallpox itself, also called variolation, appears to have been common for centuries among rural populations throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa. Correspondence in the archives of the Royal Society of London shows that English travelers had observed the practice in China before 1700. Several generations before Jenner's experiments, a furious debate had raged among physicians and town councils in Europe and America over whether inoculation with the "matter" of samllpox should be allowed. In the 1720s, in Boston and other New England towns, a war of pamphlets and posters was waged for and against the practice. ... The Puritan minister and prolific writer Cotton Mather (1663-1728) learned of smallpox inoculation from a man named Onisemus, who had been brought as a slave from Africa. Mather asked other people brought from Africa about the practice and found that it was commonly done there. Given the tremendous threat of smallpox epidemics in the new Americam colonies, he became a strong proponent of inoculation with smallpox. In his small book titled An aacount of the method and successes of inoculating the Small-Pox, printed in London in 1722, he gave a step-by-step description of the procedure. ... The dedication to Mather's book, written by J. Dummer, affirmed that the idea that inoculation with smallpox could prevent the disease was not at all new: The practice of ingrafting the Small-Pox has been used from Time immemorial among the Circassians, and for many Years past in the Levant, yet it is a new Thing in these Parts of Europe, and still more so in America: And as all new Discoveries, however rational in themselves, and beneficial to Mankind, are receiv'd at first with Opposition, none has met with greater than this in New England. In the late 1600s, the practice of inoculation with smallpox had been described in Turkey and the eastern Mediterranean, and seems to have been widely used throughout Europe. Peasants called the rather dangerous practice "buying the smallpox", and most contemporary accounts noted (with either praise or contempt) that old women were the ones who knew how to inoculate people. A highly respected London physician of the early eighteenth century, for example, wrote derisively that "posterity will scarcely be brought to believe that a method practiced only by a few Ignorant Women, amongst an illiterate and unthinking People should .. be received into the Royal Palace" (quoted in Sterns 1950)." It looks inoculation was widely in use in Europe dating to atleast 17th century. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Thu Oct 5 17:28:05 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 13:28:05 -0400 Subject: Forum's tone Message-ID: <161227062267.23782.12717996533485890141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think part of the reason for the periodic deterioration in our tone of conversation is that people everywhere are not keen on being "studied." People like to be conversed with, learned from, taught (sometimes!), exalted, flattered, humored, and so on, but they really don't enjoy being put under a microscope and analyzed. Some members of this list feel more like the slide and less like the observer. This is why, in Anthropology, there are thousands of village studies, thousands of working class neighborhood studies, but very few studies of the wealthy--they have the wherewithal to avoid being studied. (The exception being that small subset known as celebrities, who derive their wealth from being observed.) Unless this list becomes moderated and exclusive, some members will have to come to terms with the fact that it is primarily a detached, analytical, academic forum, and others with the fact that their statements can be taken quite personally. It reminds me a bit of an essay by Clifford Geertz. He retur ned to a village in Indonesia he had studied many years ago--and found his ethnographies for sale in the village shops! Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Oct 5 12:43:14 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 13:43:14 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062239.23782.53252366760468681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Then you have a curious way of showing it, my friend. Nanda Chandran writes >I don't mean to offend From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 13:58:04 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 13:58:04 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062249.23782.13438378205715428267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SH>but I believe it is not at all SH>clear whether the inhabitants of the Shakyan polity including SH>Gautama himself (and of the nearby V.rjian confederacy) were of SH>Indo-Aryan origin -- given the proximity of those states to regions SH>still inhabited by many people of Tibeto-Burman or Austro-Asiatic SH>ethnicity. Dravidian cannot be excluded from Buddha's ethnicity analysis either. Like Krishna, he married his cross-cousin, a practice much prevalent in the south so much so it gets the name Dravidian kinship. (Cf. T. Trautmann's works). Perhaps just after few centuries of bilingualism, kinship remains, but langauge is IA. >Well, till Indology came along, non-Buddhists in India also understood the >word Arya to simply mean noble. This is not correct bcause of old and significant exceptions. Sangam Tamil texts take Arya to mean Northeners only. But in later times, in 9th century Kamban and so on, Arya is taken to mean noble. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA Thu Oct 5 21:39:14 2000 From: leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA (Leona Anderson) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 15:39:14 -0600 Subject: sr book order In-Reply-To: <20001105032607.23918.cpmta@c008.sfo.cp.net> Message-ID: <161227063617.23782.15400032400603120911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lois: can you order this book for review in SR. thanks, leona > >JAIN DOCTRINE AND PRACTICE: >ACADEMIC PERSPECTIVES >edited by Joseph T. O?Connell > >October 2000 > >Centre for South Asian Studies >University of Toronto >Room 2057, Sidney Smith Hall, >100 St. George Street >Toronto, Ont., M5S 3G3 >Canada > leona.anderson at uregina.ca From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 5 14:52:07 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 15:52:07 +0100 Subject: Nanda Chandran In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062254.23782.11585767995004320435.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have written to Nanda Chandran asking him to moderate his tone, since it is causing offence to me and other embers of the list, and it is not consonant with the goal of this list, i.e., to have a calm, useful exchange of academically-informed views. This list was designed not as a debating group, but as a university-level forum for the discussion of indological topics. The point is to advance knowledge, not score points, or try to make an "opponent" crumple. Let's all drain the violence from our sentences. (I've been reading too much ayurveda :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 6 00:05:56 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 17:05:56 -0700 Subject: kuRuntokai 22 Message-ID: <161227062308.23782.8142092773593245116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > Viewed simply, as soon as the heorine hears the > phrase > "who [,ever,] would want to part with you" which > gives hope that the hero > himself may not bear to leave her behind, > she feels uplifted and looks up... > > > To me it looks like an interesting but minor and > harmless adornment by UVS. Thanks, Chandra for your detailed explanation. kuRuntokai is supposed to have had an old commentary (now lost) by pErAciriyar. Would it have had this interesting explanation .. whereby the poem is considered to have (not a mantra like but) an effect (nevertheless) on the situation it's describing? I think not but I'd be interested to know if there are other opinions. Thanks in advance, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Oct 5 15:11:39 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 17:11:39 +0200 Subject: Indology in Russian Message-ID: <161227062257.23782.3786345969126115945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Phillip, there is a vast indological literature in Russian and some very important books which wait for their translation in Western languages. Such as, e.g. Pavel Grintser's classic "Ancient Indian Epics: Genesis and Typology" (Drevneindijskij epos: genezis i tipologiya. Moscow, 1974) which is refered to in any modern book on the subject, but unfortunately is known to Western and Indian scholars due only to its summary in the reviews by Prof. J.W.de Jong. Some works by T.Ya Yelizarenkova (Elisarenkova; on Vedic texts and culture) or A.M.Dubiansky (on Classical Tamil poetry) have appeared recently in English, but the desiderata still remains so great... There are works by Julia Alikhanova and Vladimir Ehrmann on Sanskrit theory of poetry and drama, Nikita Gurov's papers on Aryan-Dravidian lingvistic and cultural interaction, books by Svetlana Neveleva on the MahAbhArata and many, many others... Merely by reviewing some works by Russian scholars you could make serious contribution to the World Indology. That old principle of Western savants: "Rossica non leguntur" - is to be discarded, the sooner the better. Of course, if Russian scholars want to attract attention to their works they should better write in English, but not all of them are able to do so... If you can tell me what particular branch of Indology has special interest for you, I could give you information about literature in Russian available on this subject. Wishing you success, Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip Ernest" To: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: Indology in Russian > Dear List: > > Is there a large body of writing on Indology in Russian? I am attracted > to Russian for other reasons, and wonder whether it would make sense to > learn it as the required European language for graduate work in Indology. > > Pip From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 17:12:22 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 17:12:22 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062265.23782.13702437241752796903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Sangam Tamil texts take Arya to mean Northeners only. >But in later times, in 9th century Kamban and so on, Arya is >taken to mean noble. Agreed, but this just reinforces the point that such words carry no meaning that is fixed for all time. And between the 9th century and the 19th, there is an entire millennium to take into account. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Thu Oct 5 21:40:04 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 17:40:04 -0400 Subject: Indology in Russian In-Reply-To: <000b01c02ede$90a62980$bbc6e584@leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227062292.23782.4611810157518377954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to those who have written me on- and off-list. I'll repeat that, right now, my interest is in Mahayana and Vedic. Pip On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Dr Y. Vassilkov wrote: > Dear Phillip, > there is a vast indological literature in Russian and some very > important books which wait for their translation in Western languages. Such > as, e.g. Pavel Grintser's classic > "Ancient Indian Epics: Genesis and Typology" (Drevneindijskij epos: genezis > i tipologiya. Moscow, 1974) which is refered to in any modern book on the > subject, but unfortunately is known to Western and Indian scholars due only > to its summary in the reviews by Prof. J.W.de Jong. Some works by T.Ya > Yelizarenkova (Elisarenkova; on Vedic texts and culture) or A.M.Dubiansky > (on Classical Tamil poetry) have appeared recently in English, but the > desiderata still remains so great... There are works by Julia Alikhanova and > Vladimir Ehrmann on Sanskrit theory of poetry and drama, Nikita Gurov's > papers on Aryan-Dravidian lingvistic and cultural interaction, books by > Svetlana Neveleva on the MahAbhArata and many, many others... Merely by > reviewing some works by Russian scholars you could make serious contribution > to the World Indology. That old principle of Western savants: "Rossica non > leguntur" - is to be discarded, the sooner the better. Of course, if Russian > scholars want to attract attention to their works they should better write > in English, but not all of them are able to do so... > If you can tell me what particular branch of Indology has special > interest for you, I could give you information about literature in Russian > available on this subject. > Wishing you success, > Yaroslav Vassilkov > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phillip Ernest" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 3:40 PM > Subject: Indology in Russian > > > > Dear List: > > > > Is there a large body of writing on Indology in Russian? I am attracted > > to Russian for other reasons, and wonder whether it would make sense to > > learn it as the required European language for graduate work in Indology. > > > > Pip > From dmitris at PIPELINE.COM Thu Oct 5 17:42:07 2000 From: dmitris at PIPELINE.COM (Dmitri) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 18:42:07 +0100 Subject: Pata~njali: one person or two? Message-ID: <161227062273.23782.9399899452773261271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology memebers, The legend has it that the author of Yoga Suutra is the author of Mahaabhaashya. Are there any reasons to believe that legend? Say, are there "stylistical similarity" or "lexicon similarity" studies between Yoga Suutra and Mahaabhaashya? I would appreciate references and/or pro- & contra- arguments for the attribution of Yoga Suutra and Mahaabhaashya to the same person. Best regards, Dmitri. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Oct 5 17:52:41 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 19:52:41 +0200 Subject: Indology in Russian Message-ID: <161227062275.23782.8368235137298530215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, it was after her visit to Moscow and Leningrad (now St.-Petersburg again) about 25 years ago. The title (or subtitle) was "The disregarded scholars". She reviewed mostly the works of Indologists belonging to Moscow-Tartu school of structural studies. Some of the people mentioned here soon after that had to emigrate, but others left. Unfortunately, I can not give the precise reference. An American magazine. The article never reached the libraries of the USSR. Ya.V. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen W Thrasher" To: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 6:03 PM Subject: Indology in Russian > Didn't Wendy Doniger (O'Flaherty) write a survey of Russian Indology > some years ago? > > Allen Thrasher > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > > Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE > Southern Asia Section LJ-150 > Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 > Library of Congress U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 > Email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 5 19:37:51 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 20:37:51 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062284.23782.4293284133373468602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:58:04 GMT, N. Ganesan wrote: >SH>but I believe it is not at all >SH>clear whether the inhabitants of the Shakyan polity including >SH>Gautama himself (and of the nearby V.rjian confederacy) were of >SH>Indo-Aryan origin -- given the proximity of those states to regions >SH>still inhabited by many people of Tibeto-Burman or Austro-Asiatic >SH>ethnicity. > >Dravidian cannot be excluded from Buddha's ethnicity analysis either. >Like Krishna, he married his cross-cousin, a practice >much prevalent in the south so much so it gets the name >Dravidian kinship. (Cf. T. Trautmann's works). > >Perhaps just after few centuries of bilingualism, >kinship remains, but langauge is IA. Culturally Indo-Aryan Sinhalese of Sri Lanka and Divehis of Maldives (Ref. Clarence Maloney, Where Did the Maldives People Come From?) indulged in cross - cousin marriages till recently, we are talking about more than few generations here :-) But cross cousin marriages are not limited to Dravidian speakers alone in India but also Austro -Asiatics. Raveen From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Oct 5 18:38:37 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 20:38:37 +0200 Subject: SV: Forum's tone Message-ID: <161227062282.23782.12596886534971727213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Brian Akers [SMTP:Sfauthor at AOL.COM] skrev 5. oktober 2000 19:28: > > This is why, in Anthropology, there are thousands of village studies, > thousands of working class neighborhood studies, but very few studies of the > wealthy--they have the wherewithal to avoid being studied. Or, to put it differently, their would-be investigators don't have the wherewithal to blend in among them. In other words, how will you get the average university to come up with such field equipment as a few thousand-dollar suits (or haute-couture for the ladies), a Rolex, not to mention a Mercedes Benz or a Ferrari, all necessary to mingle effortlessly with the rich and participate in their lives on reasonably equal terms. The rich have little patience with the pennyless, I believe. (If you find a way, please let me know!) Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Thu Oct 5 20:09:46 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 21:09:46 +0100 Subject: Hinduism/Buddhism Message-ID: <161227062289.23782.17603174064407171811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: >Take this commonly used term "Hindu" as distinguished from JainA and >Bauddha. Can you cite a single instance from any pre-colonial JainA or >Bauddha literature where the followers of SanAtana Dharma are referred to as >Hindus? Does the Buddha or MahAveera refer to us that way? It is always >brAhmana or shrAmana or the follower of this or that school - like Bauddha >or JainA, it would be NaiyAyika or VedAnti or Shaiva or Vaishnava - but >never Hindu. I'm not aware of any examples of the use of word Hindu, before the British period that would exclude Jains (or Indian Buddhists). I have seen examples where Jains were specifically termed Hindu. I would therefore suggest that word "Hindu" not be used in a historical discussion, except where it describes native Indians, or Indian attributes. The term "SanAtana Dharma" I think, is also of recent origin. The question then is, what term should be used to call the popular-brahmancial-Hinduism? It has been called Brahmanism. (Incidentally Arab/Central Asian authors have called some Indian Kings "Brahmin", they could have meant "Brahmanist"). However many Buddhist and Jain authors have been Brahmin. They remained brahmin if they become Buddhist or Jain, just like they remain brahmin when they become Vaishnava or Shaiva. There are some brahmin communities which have a historic affiliation with Jainism. Regarding the race of Gautama Buddha (Shakyamuni). His gotra was indeed Gautama, and he generally referred to his immediate students by their gotra. In case of Kshatriyas (Shakya), the gotra was determined through teacher-student relationship. For brahmins, it could be determined through either father-son or teacher-student relationship. Some Newars call themselves Shakyas. They are monogoloid and Newari language (in spite of a large number of Sanskrit words) is not an Indo-European language. I'm not sure what relationship, if any, they have with the ancient Shakyas. If I remember correctly, a majority of the previous Buddhas were brahmin. Buddhas are only born in Jambudvipa, and not anywhere else. (This does not apply to Tirthankaras in Jainism.) The Shakyas were derived from Ikshvakus, the Shakyamuni had an ancestor Rama, son of Dasharatha. However I'm not sure if he is the same as the hero of Ramayana. Yashwant From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 22:27:05 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 22:27:05 +0000 Subject: Indology in Russian Message-ID: <161227062299.23782.9959431648626697067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. Wendy wrote in a magazine from London. W. D. O'Flaherty, Disregarded scholars: a survey of Russian Indology, South Asian Review 6 (1972) 332-5 Regards, N. Ganesan ----------- Yes, it was after her visit to Moscow and Leningrad (now St.-Petersburg again) about 25 years ago. The title (or subtitle) was "The disregarded scholars". She reviewed mostly the works of Indologists belonging to Moscow-Tartu school of structural studies. Some of the people mentioned here soon after that had to emigrate, but others left. Unfortunately, I can not give the precise reference. An American magazine. The article never reached the libraries of the USSR. Ya.V. ----- Original Message ----- > Didn't Wendy Doniger (O'Flaherty) write a survey of Russian Indology > some years ago? > > Allen Thrasher > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 5 22:02:58 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 23:02:58 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062295.23782.1113623019388925700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > If an Asian/Indian Jain or Buddhist has no objections to calling herself a Hindu, > an objection is raised against it. In my view, people can call themselves whatever they like and they may well have good reasons for doing so. > That presumes that there is a definition of "Hindu" that excludes them, and that is > academically acceptable. I would like to know what that definition is. As I asked before, are you using the term to indicate a) a follower of the forms of religion which in principle recognize the authority of the Vedas, popularly known as Hinduism or b) as a term for an inhabitant of various parts of the Indian sub-continent and perhaps elsewhere ? Most dictionaries I have on hand state the word in sense b) is archaic/obselete so I guess you are probably using the word in sense a). If you accept that some form of recognition of the validity (or similar) of the Vedas is part of the definition of a follower of Hinduism, then Buddhists cannot be Hindus since they do not recognize the Vedas -- that is why they were called "naastikas" by those who did. But once again, people are free to call themselves whatever they like and likewise I am entitled to say, both on personal grounds and on the basis of Buddhist scriptural evidence etc that I just happen not to agree. At the same time, I do recognize that many non-Buddhist religions / philosophies influenced Buddhism and vice versa -- a good knowledge of both is perhaps required of a scholar to do justice to one or the others "camps". > Pray what made the Sakyas "non-Hindu"? If I could invert your question, what makes you so sure that they were ? > If anyone cares to notice, no Indian source ever used the word Hindu, till first the Middle > East and then Europe impinged upon India in a big way. Precisely ! But given that the term was imposed upon Indian society by outsiders, perhaps it should be their responsibility to clear up the mess :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 5 23:12:11 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 23:12:11 +0000 Subject: Indian philosophy Message-ID: <161227062305.23782.9913749114778464314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My suggestions: Wilhelm Halbfass, all of his publications! One important book that is not listed in many catalogs is his Studies in Kumarila and Sankara, Monographie no. 9, Reinbek, Inge Wezler, 1982. His 1992 book on Vaiseshika is a welcome addition to the study of a little-explored school. Bimal Krishna Matilal, likewise - everything he ever wrote. Particularly see Nyaya-Vaiseshika (Wiesbaden, Harrassowitz, 1977), Navya Nyaya (Harvard University Press, 1968) and Jainism (Ahmedabad: L. D. Institute of Indology, 1981). Comparative material - Logic, language and reality: an introduction to Indian philosophical studies, Delhi, MLBD, 1985. Comparative - Nyaya-Mimamsa-Vedanta: Purushottama Bilimoria, Sabdapramana, word and knowledge, Dordrecht/Boston, Kluwer, 1988. Samkhya-Yoga: Gerald Larson, Classical Samkhya, an interpretation of its history and meaning, Delhi, MLBD 1979. Ian Whicher, The integrity of the Yoga darsana, SUNY Press, 1998. Gaspar Koelman, Patanjala yoga, from related ego to absolute self, Poona, Papal Athaneum, 1970. Barbara Stoler Miller, Yoga, the discipline of freedom, NY, Bantam Books, 1998. A must read, the translation is beautiful. Georg Feuerstein, Philosophy of classical Yoga, Rochester, Inner Traditions International, 1996. Advaita/Dvaita Vedanta: http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/biblio.html, and http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/biblio2.html http://www.dvaita.org/biblio/index.html. Pick and choose, but see particularly the sections titled "General References". I can't think of anything very noteworthy in Mimamsa published recently, but see Ganganatha Jha's translations from 1930-40. For Visishtadvaita, S. M. S. Chari's MLBD publications, and John Carman's Theology of Ramanuja, Yale Univ. Press, 1974. Finally, taazaa khabar can be had from http://faculty.washington.edu/kpotter/ckeyt/home.html - the online version of Vol. 1 of Karl Potter's Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies (updated as recently as last week). No search facility incorporated, but if you are looking for a particular author or subject, this is the most extensive collection available to date. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 5 22:15:46 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 23:15:46 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062297.23782.433305673690104202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: > Asian Buddhism was basically spread by Indian monks > and so there's still a traditional connection with the home of the religion. I "got" my Buddhism from Asian teachers -- though unfortunately there don't seem to be many Indian Buddhist monks around these days. > While Western Buddhism was imported into the West by Westerners themselves. This may be true of an academic approach to Buddhism but is only partially true at best of practitioners/converts themselves -- go to any sizable Buddhist centre in the UK where I live and see for yorself. > likewise if you'd got it from India in the days of old, you would have identified yourself differently. Naturally you would not have called yourself "Hindu" since the term did not exist then but you would have been quite conscious of your religio-philosophical affiliation -- read any of the accounts given by medieval Chinese or Tibetan pilgrims -- Buddhists are "insiders" and all the others are "outsiders" or else "heretics". Xuan-zang is quite clear that he is a Buddhist and not anything else. > And I guess Siddhartha is a common Mongolian name and the gotram name > Gautama, a common extent gotram of brahmins even today, is a common > Mongolian name! Also how about MAyAdevi or RAhula or Suddhodana? Well, my name is Stephen and my partner's is Rebecca. Does that mean I am Greek and she is Jewish ? Actually, I am basically Anglo-Italian and my partner is Afro-Caribbean. and we are both Buddhists ! Or I could confuse things even more and give you our Sanskrit or Tibetan Dharma names. Or more appositely, many of the Buddhist rulers in the Kapi`sa / Gandhara area in the 8th century CE called themselves by a variant of "Caesar". Does this make them Romans ? No, they were Eastern Turks. > Also if he wasn't Indian, why did he not move east into Tibet/Burma - the > land of his peoples in search of enlightenment, but rather moved towards the > traditional "Hindu" holy place of VAranasi Probably for the same reason that early Christians like Paul or Peter gravitated to Rome rather than drift out into the deserts of nearby Arabia. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Oct 5 18:20:57 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 00 23:50:57 +0530 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062279.23782.6457064055680296543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:43 AM 10/4/00 +0000, you wrote: >He could say that only if he had a time machine to go back and check the >facts! Leaving aside Ambedkar's claims for the moment, it is true that >Buddhism was widespread through South India at one point in time. But >how did it spread? Due to the efforts of major personalities like >NAgArjuna, DignAga, DharmakIrti etc (who were themselves originally >brahmins). So it is only perfectly natural that if a even more charismatic >religious figure like say ShankarAchArya or RAmAnuja appeared on the scene, >the same Hindus who converted to Buddhism, would reconvert back to Hinduism >(some particular form of it). I think, it is long shot to claim that the arrival of ShankarAchArya or Ramanuja catalyzed the re-conversion back to Hinduism. It is more due to NayanmAr (especially Sambanthar, Appar and Manickavasagar) and AlwAr (especially three muthal Alwars). This re-conversion was at the end of KaLappirar rule and the start of Pallava rule. History is more clear on that. >The Dravidians in their efforts to gain recognition for Tamil see an >imaginary enemy in Brahmanical Hinduism and Sanskrit (this is Samar's >interest in them). They think that it is the Brahmins who're opposed to the >recognition of the greatness of their language. In this they forget the >numerous brahmins who have contributed and enriched their language. If Tamil >isn't recognized as a classical language today, it is only because of the >Tamil peoples periodic bursts of linguistic chauvnism and anti-Brahminism. Again, it is an un-supported accusation. Can you please define "linguistic chauvnism"? You said "let go of it and Brahmins themselves will fight for your cause". If you are a Tamilian, who stopped you from fighting for that cause? Why are you mixing politics and scholarly debate? With regards, RM.Krishnan (Didn't we >recently see a brahmin taking pride in his >marathtamizh heritage over his Vedic heritage or another who sighed with >frustration at the final recognition of the greatness of Tamil). It is our >mother tongue too. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 5 23:12:40 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 00:12:40 +0100 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062302.23782.16455134571108235614.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: > We have a term "Hindu," but are > not sure how to employ it, or what it means. But you, though a Buddhist, are happy to label yourself thus :) I think your motives are clearly laudable but I'm confused ! > And this fact is both astounding and outrageous. Why should it be ? Christianity emerged from Judaism but I do not hear of many Christians calling or recognizing themselves as Jews (desirable though that might be given centuries of anti-semitic barabarism in Europe) nor do I hear of many Jews saying that Christians are Jews either after Christians were anathematized by c3rd CE rabbis. Though sharing certain common elements, these are clearly two different religions -- even though each seem to have a lot to gain from talking together about their common roots. The relationship between Buddhism and what became Hinduism is perhaps similar -- though one could argue that they actually have less in common. > an apparently irreconcilable point of contention between > themselves and that which they perceive as something > called "Hindu?" This is serious. Are you talking about Buddhists as followers of a particular religion or merely as human beings. As a human individual, I have every respect for sincere followers of Hinduism, also I read the Vedas, Upanishads etc etc and find them beautiful and inspiring spiritual works. But as a Buddhist, I doubtlessly view those scriptures differently to a Hindu. I see similarities but also note there are clear differences in tenets and practices -- and perhaps, hopefully, I can understand a little of how these differences arose. I do not see them as "irreconcilable points of contention" -- why contend ? Can't people live and let live -- acknowledging the similarities and respecting the differences. That's what I try to do and did in the past when I participated in various inter-faith forums. I found that if you treat others with respect, they will usually reciprocate. A bit idealistic perhaps, but it seems to work well enough until the politicians come along. > But what exactly is this irreconcilable "point" of > contention ? I deplore the kind of politicization of religion you allude to with "Sinhalese Hindu-phobia" as much as you, but there are an number of other points in which Buddhism differs from what later came to be termed Hinduism. For example, Buddhists (and the Buddha himself) reject the idea of a creator god (II`svara etc), the authority of the Vedas, the idea of status by birth (one is a brahmin by merit not birth), the idea of a self (aatman), the role or necessity of animal sacrifice as well as lots of arcane philosophical tenets. So I think there is/was more to the idea that Buddhism is distinct from Hinduism than just a desire to elevate the status of the Buddha over his contemporaries. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 6 07:16:10 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 00:16:10 -0700 Subject: Civility on the list Message-ID: <161227062324.23782.12404442462116629745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Valerie J Roebuck wrote: <> Dear sir, Thank you for raising an interesting point. But don?t feel so squeamish! No ones pointing the finger at you. Your sensitive post alludes to the European past when ?heresy? was used as a Dark Age tool of terror and coercion. But you are also suggesting, at least indirectly, that the term has no valid place in a scientific community. My view is different. I would further put forward that the ?scientific community? is exactly the place where ?heresy? should be. Yes, beneath the lens of a scrutinizing microscope. All the same, I do concur that this needs to be viewed with a little sensitivity. And if that were possible, one would likely see that in contrast to a widely held misconception, heretics have never been the enemy of truth, nor the purveyor of fraud and imitation. Heretics are highly unconventional beings who - in so being precisely what they are - embolden later generations to advance beyond every form of ideological ghetto. One would also come to understand that the ?concept? of heresy is the Idiot Child begotten from the marriage of Dogma and Fanaticism. Thanking you for you patience, Ven Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 6 10:49:44 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 03:49:44 -0700 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062339.23782.9540595415139241626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: <> Stepen, Yes. And you raise a charming point really. I lived a good year down around the Trivandrum-Varkala area of Kerala in the 80?s. And a very typical on-the-street reply that I would get from random Christians was, ?caste-Christian.? Always, Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Fri Oct 6 05:19:27 2000 From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 05:19:27 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?2_Pata=C3=B1jalis?= In-Reply-To: <200010052259.RAA28670@mail2.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227062310.23782.2165345553693014316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dmitri, There's a summary of this issue in: Whicher, Ian _Integrity of the Yoga Dar'sana_, Albany: State University of New York Press, 1998 In chapter 2 Whicher gives a few of the classic positions on this issue (w/bibliographic info). He believes that the consensus is on the side of two Pata?jali figures. You might also want to check out the interesting article of Bronkhorst on Pata?jali-- Bronkhorst, Johannes "Pata?jali and the Yoga Suutras," in Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, Heft 10, 1985, 191-212 (in english) Bronkhorst has some interesting suggestions about who "Vyaasa" was as well--i.e. that he may well have been "the" Pata?jali, or that Vindhyaavasin might have been Vyaasa... Hope that's useful! Stuart [admin note: changed date from Fri, 1 Jan 1904 03:06:20 -0500] From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 6 05:19:28 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 05:19:28 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062313.23782.3101097060101586239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie writes : >Then you have a curious way of showing it, my friend. Yup, I admit that. I often get carried away by the heat of the argument and fail to control my tone. But my sincerest assurance that I didn't mean to offend. If I came across otherwise - my apologies. But also think about this - what makes you think that "Hindus" as you term them, do not get offended when you try to group them as an entity apart from Buddhists? As you all know, the Hindu tradition views the Buddha as an avatAram of Lord NArAyana. I understand that traditionally historians and scholars try to find a reason for everything - the relationship between Buddhism and Hinduism or why Buddha was made an avatAram of Lord NArAyana or why Buddhism disappeared from India etc. But what makes you so sure that your reasons are wholly true? OK, it is true that there's a lot of literature on the subject which gives one a general idea of the subject. But how sure are you that the literature truly reflects the ground reality? How sure are you of your own interpretation of the texts? How aware are you of the emotional link between Hindus and Buddhism? What makes you take it for granted that Hindus would not mind if you identify them as a group with little relation to Buddhism - a movement which came out of their own fold and was developed and sustained by them? Dominik writes : >This list was designed not as a debating group, but as a university-level >forum for the discussion of indological topics. The point is to advance >knowledge, not score points, or try to make an "opponent" crumple. But even as M Witzel pointed out recently, isn't the process a dialectical one? So where exactly do we draw the line between discussion and debate? Is it just my agressive tone that makes it a debate - if so, I'll moderate it. But let me assure you that I've no intention at either scoring points or making opponents "crumple". I believe in certain things and if something contradictory is presented, I question it - if the assertions are backed with irrefutable evidence I'll be more than eager to accept and learn. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 6 06:45:31 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 06:45:31 +0000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062316.23782.403876854562964937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Hodge writes : >I "got" my Buddhism from Asian teachers -- But that still is not the same as getting Buddhism from Indian monks as in the days of yore, is it? >While Western Buddhism was imported into the West by Westerners >themselves. >This may be true of an academic approach to Buddhism but is only >partially true at best of practitioners/converts themselves -- go to >any sizable Buddhist centre in the UK where I live and see for yorself. But isn't there a difference in the way Europeans and Asians view Buddhism? Isn't the European/American approach more "reasoned" than the Asian approach? Inshort what attracts Europeans/Americans to Buddhism? In Asia, I would think that it was the personality and confidence of the Indian monks, their unique message of ethics and love, probably in some cases the lack of native religions, their own piety - these might have been the main factors behind Asians embracing Buddhism. In my opinion Buddhism's stress on reason wouldn't have been as important as the above mentioned factors. This would have appealed only to the intellectual few - though this small group might have formed a very important part of the Buddhist society. But in today's "enlightened" environment in Europe and America, Buddhism's stress on reason seems to be the main attraction. So don't you think that this would have a distinct difference on the way Europeans and Asians view it? >Naturally you would not have called yourself "Hindu" since the term >did not exist then but you would have been quite conscious of your >religio-philosophical affiliation -- read any of the accounts given by >medieval Chinese or Tibetan pilgrims -- Buddhists are "insiders" and >all the others are "outsiders" or else "heretics". Xuan-zang is >quite clear that he is a Buddhist and not anything else. Yes, but that's more a doctrinal standpoint. What're the main differences between the religion preached by the Buddha and the Brahmanical religion? Leaving aside the philosophical differences, which anyway doesn't amount to much in the absolute sense, since both sides are unanimous that truth is beyond the reach of the intellect, their main differences lie in the way : 1. they view of the Veda and 2. they view the caste system. While for the Brahmanical religion the Veda and its pronouncements - both ritual and philosophical - have great value, the Buddhists are opposed to atleast against the former. They are dead against Vedic sacrifices. They are also opposed to the caste system, though their opposition is not as radical as we are sometimes led to believe - for the Buddha is not so much opposed to the concept of brahmin itself - but is more interested in moralising it - ofcourse in such an attempt at moralising, he totally revolutionizes the traditional definition of brahmin itself. So for these two priorities - sacrifices and caste - they had to ensure that their religion always had its individual identity as apart from the other brahmanical faiths. Proslytizing religions in India had always targetted brahmins - for if brahmins could be won over, the rest of the castes too would follow and also the root of the opposition would disappear. But not many brahmins would be won over by the caste factor where they anyway were supreme - so they had to be approaced in an area which was very important to them - philosophy. It is here that the unique Buddhist doctrine of "anatta" is significant - on the surface it seems so radically opposed to the Upanishadic doctrine of the Atman - but as later works of MahAyAna shows, it is in truth but a different angle from which the truth is approached. So here the Buddha and his followers were pretty smart in using the anatta doctrine to condemn the Atman theory and woo brahmins into their fold with a seemingly contradictory doctrine. But with more philosophical development the underlying unity between both doctrines is recognized by both sides - BhAvaviveka and GaudapAda. But still for the traditionalists on both sides - they had to keep their philosophical differences alive to make their religion relevant and sustain their priorities - the Veda and the caste factor. But that such pretences couldn't be carried on for too long is revealed by history itself. >Well, my name is Stephen and my partner's is Rebecca. Does that mean >I am Greek and she is Jewish ? Actually, I am basically Anglo-Italian >and my partner is Afro-Caribbean. and we are both Buddhists ! Or I >could confuse things even more and give you our Sanskrit or Tibetan >Dharma names. Or more appositely, many of the Buddhist rulers in the >Kapi`sa / Gandhara area in the 8th century CE called themselves by a >variant of "Caesar". Does this make them Romans ? No, they were >Eastern Turks. But do Tibeteans and Burmese name themselves as Gautama or Siddhartha? Forget monastic names for Gautama Siddhartha wasn't one - talk about common names. Also if you notice Buddhism as a proslytizing religion doesn't try to kill local cultures and replace it with Indian culture - so unlike Christians or Muslims who adopt names from their holy books - a Chinese who converts to Buddhism could still retain his his own cultural background - name, dress, food (as long as it is compatible with the fundemental tenets of Buddhism) - follow the dharma and be Buddhist. This I guess is due to the fact that Buddhism unlike Christianity or Islam is not a personality cult where Christ and Mohammed form an inseperable part of the religion - in Buddhism the dharma is more important than the historical personality of the Buddha. So the assertion that "Gautama Siddharta" was a name adopted by Tibetean/Burmese people - who have little history of any association with Hinduism anyway to have acquired such a name - doesn't carry much weight. Also why go against the Buddhist scriptures themselves who affirm that Gautama was a Hindu Kshatriya? Aren't those very scriptures the basis of your faith in the religion? If you do not believe them why believe in the historic personality of the Buddha himself? Or his teachings? >Probably for the same reason that early Christians like Paul or Peter >gravitated to Rome rather than drift out into the deserts of nearby >Arabia. By this do you mean that Peter and Paul were Arabians? Or that Jesus was from Arabia? I think this comparison is flawed - for neither the Buddha nor those from whom he tried to learn the truth, from anywhere outside India. You have also not answered the questions that I'd raised regarding the Buddha's indepth knowledge of brahmanical philosophical systems, his own pride at being "Arya", how he could've studied under brahmins, the acute philosophical bent of his religion which needs a prior existing philosophical basis etc It is not very easy to answer all these questions if Gautama is not an Indian. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 6 08:09:58 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 08:09:58 +0000 Subject: Civility on the list Message-ID: <161227062334.23782.10837658697930250538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I agree entirely with what you say about the importance of heresy and >heretics, I was just querying the usefulness of the terms as sometimes used >in the list. I think non-European scholars often use these words to But see David Shulman, _The King and The Clown_, for why "heresy" is almost central to Indian culture. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Oct 6 07:20:21 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 08:20:21 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062327.23782.2319517670004710368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran writes : > >Yup, I admit that. I often get carried away by the heat of the argument and >fail to control my tone. But my sincerest assurance that I didn't mean to >offend. If I came across otherwise - my apologies. I accept your apologies. To make my own position clear: I am a Buddhist, and have been for 30 years. My teachers have included both Asian and Western Buddhists, and people who weren't Buddhists at all. I have the greatest love and respect for Hinduism, which I have studied for about 32 years. I have just spent the last seven years translating the UpaniSads. So I'm pretty sure (most of the time) that I'm not a Hindu. I have never tried to group anybody else as an entity. On a spiritual level, such labels are meaningless anyway. On the practical level, and as scholars, we need some sort of language to talk about ourselves and others and our various ideas. However I think we should respect what people want to call themselves, in terms of religions as in politics or anything else, as a human right. I don't think people automatically "belong to" the religions that their parents followed, either. (If they did, presumably we'd all still be tribal animists of some kind or other?) > But what makes you so sure that >your reasons are wholly true? OK, it is true that there's a lot of >literature on the subject which gives one a general idea of the subject. But >how sure are you that the literature truly reflects the ground reality? How >sure are you of your own interpretation of the texts? I'm not sure about any of this--why does one have to be? With best wishes-- Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Oct 6 07:57:09 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 08:57:09 +0100 Subject: Civility on the list In-Reply-To: <20001006071610.16715.qmail@web1001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062330.23782.8990404979530498878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ven. Tantra I agree entirely with what you say about the importance of heresy and heretics, I was just querying the usefulness of the terms as sometimes used in the list. I think non-European scholars often use these words to translate fairly neutral Sanskrit, Pali etc terms for other religious groups. I was seeking to point out that these words have extremely powerful connotations for Europeans, which may give an impression entirely different from what the writer intended. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK >Dear sir, As Hon. Speaker Betty Boothroyd said, "Call me madam!" From dasa at ONE.NET.AU Fri Oct 6 00:28:28 2000 From: dasa at ONE.NET.AU (Ramadas) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 10:28:28 +1000 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062318.23782.11268192593024519266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >religious sense. If so, I rest my case: Buddhists are not Hindus, > >although there is naturally some common ground. BTW do Keralan > >Christians consider themselves Hindus in any sense of the word ? > > Take a look at the matrimonial ads in Indian newspapers, where all sorts of > things are possible, including a category of "Brahmin Christians". There is one town in Karnataka which has two Christian churches -- one for the Brahmins and one for the rest. It is interesting to note that many/most Christian churches use all the paraphernalia of Hindu ritual in their services. Without it they would struggle to keep members. In many/most places where Christian sects are trying to make headway the membership is obtained by bribery/extortion by means of healthcare, education and so on. These services are supplied by money obtained from foreign countries. Without these inducements there would be very few converts. Many so-called Christians will tell you in private that they are Christian only because of the material benefits they obtain. If it were not for the foreign capital which supports Christianity in India, conversion would taper away to the almost nil level. Where once conversion was by force/violence, in the modern age it is by financial pressure. btw, the above is not an "I hate Christians" attitude on my part, but by observation and inquiry. ---- Ramadas From fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT Fri Oct 6 08:28:38 2000 From: fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT (Federico Squarcini) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 10:28:38 +0200 Subject: Indian philosophy In-Reply-To: <01C02EC2.B950FE80.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227062336.23782.13816282777100034626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor Lars Martin Fosse, I was just doing an initial inquire on the same subject, so I can share with you my until-now findings. A) The newest material which I have examined and selected is the following: J.N. Mohanty, Bina Gupta (Ed.), Philosophical Questions : East and West (Philosophy and the Global Context), Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2000. J.N. Mohanty, Classical Indian Philosophy, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2000. J.N. Mohanty, Self and the Other, OUP India, 2000. J.N. Mohanty, Classical Indian Philosophy: An Introductory Text, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 1999. J. N. Mohanty, Bina Gupta (Editor), Explorations in Indian Philosophy, OUP India, 1999. B. Carr (Ed.), Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Routledge, London 1998, 10 voll. (many entries are dedicated to indian philosophical issues, and are compiled by important experts in the particular field, as B.K. Matilal, W. Halbfass, etc.). Ben-Ami Scharfestein, A comparative history of world philosophy: from the Upanishads to Kant, SUNY, Albany 1998. B. Carr, I. Mahalingam (Ed.), Companion Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy, Routledge, Londra 1997. Eliot Deutsch (ed.), A Companion to World Philosophies, Blackwell, Cambridge 1997. (entries on indian philosophy). Roy W. Perrett, Hindu Ethics: A Philosophical Study, (Monographs of the Society for Asian and Comparative Philosophy, 17), Univeristy of Hawaii Press, 1998. F.M. Kirkland, D.P. Chattopadhyaya, Phenomenology: East and West. Essay in honour of J.N. Mohanty, Dordrecht, Kluver 1997. Daya Krishna, The problematic and conceptual structure of classical indian thought about man, society and polity, Oxfrod University Press, Delhi 1996. J.N. Mohanty, P. Bilimoria (Editor), Essays on Indian Philosophy, Traditional and Modern, , Oxford University Press, Delhi 1994. William J. Jackson (ed.), J.L. Mehta on Heidegger, Hermeneutics and Indian Tradition, Brill, Leiden 1992. B) Then, there are interesting papers on Journals that are discussing about the state-of-art about indian philosophy: R.W. Perret, Truth, Relativism and Western conceptions of indian philosophy, in "Asian Philosophy", 1(8), Marzo 1998, pp. 19-29. Amita Chatterjee, Truth in Indian Philosophy, in Eliot Deutsch (ed.), A Companion to World Philosophies, Blackwell, Cambridge 1997. S. Jayandra, Intercultural relevance of some moments in the history of Indian philosophy, in Topoi, 1(17), Marzo 1998, pp. 49-55. C) THere are more "classical" works as you surely know, but still sometime neglected, as for example: Bimal Krishna Matilal, Logic, Language and Reality: an Introduction to Indian Philosophical Studies, Motilal Banarsidass, 1985 (second Ed. 1990). Bimal Krishna Matilal, The Word and the World: India's contribution to the Study of Language, Oxford University Press, Delhi 1990. I hope that this help. Best regards, Dr. Federico Squarcini PS. I'll procede on my searching on the issue, and if you like I can update you sometime in the future. Let me know. From dasa at ONE.NET.AU Fri Oct 6 00:48:09 2000 From: dasa at ONE.NET.AU (Ramadas) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 10:48:09 +1000 Subject: Buddhists and others Message-ID: <161227062321.23782.3421697985869801175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was under the impression that this site was called "Indology". In the past it was devoted to discussions on Indology, but lately there has been a shift in emphasis. Many who have had thoughts and ideas contrary to the Eurocentric norm have been banned, and now it seems that the list will be inundated by spam not related to the avowed scope of the list. Oh well, in the past there have been highs which became lows which once again became highs, so I guess we will just have to weather the storm and hope that one day Indology will once again become the focus of the list. Surely it would be more appropriate if the message below was conducted "off site" so as not to incite the racial and religious hatred and diatribes which could/would surely result from such postings. ---- Ramadas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samar Abbas" > nanda chandran wrote: > > Samar, please, can we have the URLs [of Islamist sites]? > > Ok, will start collecting and post them soon, (did not imagine that there > would be demand for such sites among this audience !). Since attacks on > Hindu Gods cannot be termed as `Indology', and these sites are highly > offensive, I will have to make a separate post with adequate warnings. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Oct 6 09:35:37 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 11:35:37 +0200 Subject: Indology in Russian Message-ID: <161227062342.23782.10303612704242430814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Dr. Ganesan who have demonstrated once more his profound bibliographical erudition. By the way, in this article some attention is paid to the works of the Leningrad group for decipherment of the Indus Valley ("Proto-Indian") writing system, headed by the late Prof. Yu.Knorozov. It is a pity, but after Possehl's book was published, it became a common opinion that as soon as nobody had deciphered the Indus script as yet, all previous attempts in this direction do not deserve attention. I would like to stress that Knorozov's group in Russia, as well as A.Parpola's group in Finland and I.Mahadevan in India made serious achievements, their works contain many useful observations on the structure and function of the inscriptions, the repeated sequences of signs etc. Their work will be of great use for the scholars of the future, who will find eventually a key for reading the seal inscriptions. As Mr. Ernest wrote that his interests are in the MahAyAna and Vedic studies, I am glad to say that both these branches of knowledge always were and still are popular in Russia. On the Vedic side there is a dozen of monographs by Prof. T.Ya.Yelizarenkova, starting from her fundamental early books on the Vedic language and up to her last book "Words and Things in the Rigveda" ("Woerter und Sachen", in Russian: "Slova i veshchi v Rigvede"); some very important articles written by T.Ya.Yelizarenkova in collaboration with her husband, Indologist and Indoeuropeanist Vladimir Toporov; Prof. V.Ehrmann's "Outline of Vedic mythology", Alexander Syrkin's works on the Upanishads, etc. The MahAyAna was studied intensively even in the 1st half of the XX century by Theodore Stcherbatsky and his school, and later, in the 1960-1980 - by Alexander Piatigorsky, an Estonian Sanskritist Lienart Meall (who published many articles in Russian), now it is studied by Andrej Paribok and his pupils, Victoria Lysenko, Andrej Terentjev, Valery Rudoj and many others. The philosophical aspects of MahAyAna attract particular attention. All the best, Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Ganesan" To: Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:27 AM Subject: Re: Indology in Russian > Greetings. Wendy wrote in a magazine from London. > > W. D. O'Flaherty, Disregarded scholars: a survey of > Russian Indology, South Asian Review 6 (1972) 332-5 > > Regards, > N. Ganesan > > ----------- > Yes, it was after her visit to Moscow and Leningrad (now > St.-Petersburg again) about 25 years ago. The title (or subtitle) > was "The disregarded scholars". She reviewed mostly the works of > Indologists belonging to Moscow-Tartu school of structural studies. > Some of the people mentioned here soon after that had to emigrate, > but others left. Unfortunately, I can not give the precise reference. > An American magazine. The article never reached the libraries of > the USSR. > Ya.V. > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Didn't Wendy Doniger (O'Flaherty) write a survey of Russian Indology > > some years ago? > > > > Allen Thrasher > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Oct 6 10:38:40 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 12:38:40 +0200 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062345.23782.3524703040628455244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran writes: > As you all know, the Hindu tradition views the Buddha as an avatAram of Lord NArAyana. .... What makes you take it for granted > that Hindus would not mind if you identify them as a group with little > relation to Buddhism - a movement which came out of their own fold and was > developed and sustained by them? If you only take trouble to look into some Hindu sacred texts, such as, e.g., PurANas, you would find that, according to them, Lord NArAyana took his Buddha avatar for only one reason: to tempt the sinners and heretic with the worst possible, false doctrine and in this way make sure that they will not escape hell. Do you mean it is in this particular way the Buddhism was developed and sustained by the Hindus? Yaroslav Vassilkov From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Oct 6 13:02:42 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 14:02:42 +0100 Subject: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062352.23782.8665186793329751393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It was brought to my attention recently that Jewish Yom Kippur and Hindu Vijayadashamee(Dasara)arrive almost on the same day while in another year they appear separated by one month due to different methods of adding extra month in their luni-solar calendar for adjustment.When the Prophet(pbuh)of Islam left Makka and reached Madina, Jews were celebrating Yom Kippur and Arabs Ashura. Prophet recommended fast due to the importance of the day.This was before the change of Arabian calendar to full lunar calendar.Iran and Afghanistan celebrate their pre-islamic new year day of Vernal Equinox (21st March of full Solar calendar)which is also the new year of Zoroastrians.In some regions of the South India the new year starts around 14th April.The conclusion of my friend and the Jewish scholar is that in the remote past Hindus borrowed the luni-solar calendar from Semitic people. To the best of knowledge, this is the year 5761 according to Jewish calendar and year 5102 according to Kaliyuga calendar of Hindus.Any information different from this? N.R.Joshi. From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Oct 6 21:05:15 2000 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 14:05:15 -0700 Subject: Asa and Kashmir Johal chair at CISAR Message-ID: <161227062371.23782.2742220597199452237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Fellow Asianists, Would you please circulate the following invitation for applications for the Asa and Kashmir Johal Chair in India Research. This was advertised last year but was withdrawn because of administrative problems. This year we are all clear. Thank you. Mandakranta Bose Director Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia, Vancouver BC mbose at interchange.ubc.ca Phone: (604) 822-6463 FAX: (604) 822-5207 The University of British Columbia, Asa and Kashmir Johal Chair in India Research. Applications are invited for a newly-endowed Chair in India Research. The appointment, beginning in July 1, 2001, will be made jointly by the Institute of Asian Research and the Department of Anthropology and Sociology, and the successful applicant will contribute equally to both units. It is expected that the appointment will be at the Associate Professor level, but for an exceptional candidate it may be at a higher rank. The successful applicant will have a PhD., an ongoing programme of research and publication in social/cultural anthropology of India, and demonstrated excellence in undergraduate and graduate teaching and supervision. He or she must have conducted ethnographic research in India and have competence in at least one of the languages of India apart from English. In accordance with Canadian immigration requirements, priority will be given to Canadian citizens and permanent residents. The University of British Columbia hires on the basis of merit and is committed to employment equity. We encourage all qualified persons to apply. The position is subject to final budget approval. Inquiries and applications, including names and addresses of three referees, curriculum vitae, sample research materials and a summary of current and future research interests should be sent by December 15, 2000 to: Secretary to the Search Committee, Dept. of Anthropolgy and Sociology, the University of British Columbia, 6303 N.W.Marine Dr., Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1. > From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Oct 6 18:19:37 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 14:19:37 -0400 Subject: Book on Mathematics by Jain author Message-ID: <161227062365.23782.11699702137556169161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oops! Dominic pointed out that I omitted the records I meant to include (NOT attach). Here they are. As I said, the >> represents a macron over the next letter. Allen ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 75900163 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Puspadanta, Acharya. Main Title: Satkhand?agamah : Hind?ibh?as?anuv?ada-tulan?atmaka tippana prast?avan?a, aneka-pari sistaih samp?adit?a / Puspadanta-Bh?utabali-pran?itah ; V?irasen?ac?arya-viracita Dhaval?at?ik?a samanvitah ; samp?adaka H?iral?ala Jaina, sahasamp?adaka ?A. Ne. Up?adhye. Uniform Title: [Chakkhand?agama. Hindi & Prakrit] Published/Created: Sol?ap?ura : Jaina Samskrti Samraksaka Sangha, 1973-<1984 > Related Names: Jaina, H?ir?al?ala, d. 1973. Up?adhye, ?A. N?e., 1906- Bh?utabali. Chakkhand?agama. Hindi & Prakrit. 1973. V?irasena, 9th cent. Dhaval?a. Hindi & Prakrit. 1973. Related Titles: Shatkhandagam. Description: v. <1, pts. 1-4 > : ill. ; 25 cm. Summary: Jaina doctrine of human action (karma). Incomplete Contents: 1. J?ivasth?ane (pts. 1-4) Notes: Text and commentary in Prakrit; translation in Hindi; prefatory matter in English and Hindi. Title on added t.p.: Shatkhandagam. Vols. 1 (pts. 3-4 ) : Sam sodhita samskarana. Vols. 1 (pts. 3- ) lack 2nd series. Vols. 1 (pts. 4- ) lack series statement. Includes bibliographical references and indexes. Subjects: Karma. Jainism--Doctrines. Series: J?ivar?aja Jaina grantham?al?a ; puspa 22 Sr?imanta Setha Sit?apar?aya Laksm?icandra Jaina s?ahityoddh?araka grantham?al?a ; 1, etc. Variant Series: Sr?imanta Setha Sit?abar?aya Laksm?icandra Jaina s?ahityodd?araka grantham?al?a ; <1, 3 > LC Classification: B162.5 .P8515 Language Code: hinpra pra CALL NUMBER: B162.5 .P8515 Hind Copy 1 -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150) -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 85909644 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Puspadanta, Acharya. Main Title: Satkhand?agamah [microform] / Puspadanta-Bh?utabali-pran?itah ; V?irasen?ac?arya-viracita-Dhaval?a-t?ik?a-samanvitah ; samp?adakah H?ir?al?ala Jainah, sahasamp?adakau Ph?ulacandrah Siddh?anta s?astr?i, H?iral?ala Siddh?anta s?astr?i ; sam sodhane sahayakau Pam. Devak?inandanah, D?a. ?Adin?athah. Uniform Title: [Chakkhand?agama. Hindi & Prakrit] Published/Created: Amar?avat?i, Bar?ara : Jaina-S?ahityoddh?araka-Phanda-K?ary?alayah, <1940>-1945. Description: ; 25 cm. Summary: Classical work on the Jaina doctrine of karma (action). Incomplete Contents: 1. J?ivasth?ane Satprar?upan?a-C?ulik?a (pts. 2-6) -- 2 Ksudrakabandhah. Notes: In Prakrit; translation in Hindi; prefatory matter in English and Hindi. Added t.p. in English. Master microform held by: DLC. Includes bibliographical references and indexes. Microfiche. Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress Photoduplication Service, 1985- . microfiche <40- > ; 11 x 15 cm. LC Classification: Microfiche 85/70100 (B) Language Code: prahin Overseas Acq. No.: LC Pr A 27 CALL NUMBER: Microfiche 85/70100 (B) So Asia Copy 1 -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150) -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 88900719 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: S?astr?i, B?alacandra, 1905- Main Title: Shatkhand?agama-pari s?ilana = Shatkhandagama-parisheelana / B?alacandra S?astr?i. Edition Information: 1. samskarana. Published/Created: Nay?i Dill?i : Bh?arat?iya J??anap?itha, 1987. Related Titles: Shatkhandagama parisheelana. Description: 52, 915 p. ; 25 cm. Summary: Critical study of Chakkhand?agama, classical work on Jaina doctrine of karma (action), by Acharya Puspadanta. Notes: In Hindi; prefatory matter in English and Hindi. Includes indexes. Bibliography: p. [909]-912. Subjects: Puspadanta, Acharya. Chakkhand?agama. Karma. Jainism--Doctrines. Series: J??anap?itha M?urtidev?i grantham?al?a. Hind?i granth?anka ; 21 LC Classification: BL1357.K37 S27 1987 Overseas Acq. No.: I H 22323 CALL NUMBER: BL1357.K37 S27 1987 Hind Copy 1 -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150) -- Status: Not Charged ------------------- ------------------------------------------------- DATABASE NAME: Library of Congress Online Catalog ================================================================================ LC Control Number: 99499347 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: S?astr?i, B?alacandra, 1905- Main Title: Shatkhand?agama-pari s?ilana = Shtkhandagama-parisheelana / B?alacandra S?astr?i. Parallel Title: Shatkhandagama-parisheelana Edition Information: 2. samskarana. Published/Created: Nay?i Dill?i : Bh?arat?iya J??anap?itha, 1999. Description: 52, 915 p. ; 25 cm. Summary: Critical study of Chakkand?agama, classical work on Jaina doctrine of karma (action), by Acharya Puspadanta. Notes: Includes bibliographical references (p. [909]-912) and indexes. In Hindi; includes passages in Prakrit. Subjects: Puspadanta, Acharya. Chakkhand?agama. Karma. Jainism--Doctrines. Series: M?urtidev?i Jaina grantham?al?a. Hind?i granth?anka ; 21 LC Classification: BL1357.K37 S27 1999 Language Code: hinpra Overseas Acq. No.: I-H-99-499347; 04 Other System No.: (DLC) 99499347 Repro./Stock No.: Library of Congress -- New Delhi Field OfficeRs200.00 Quality Code: lcode CALL NUMBER: BL1357.K37 S27 1999 Hind Copy 1 -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ15 -- Status: Not Charged Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri Oct 6 13:01:50 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 15:01:50 +0200 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE In-Reply-To: <20001006104944.1378.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062348.23782.6817773778244129751.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 6 Oct 2000, um 3:49 schrieb Ven. Tantra: > Stephen Hodge wrote: > > < in any sense of the word?>> > > Stepen, > > Yes. And you raise a charming point really. I lived a > good year down around the Trivandrum-Varkala area of > Kerala in the 80?s. And a very typical on-the-street > reply that I would get from random Christians was, > ?caste-Christian.? Do you mean 'jaati' when you use the word 'caste'? The same word is used (at least in Kannada) also for Muslims and - get ready! - foreigners. And the foreign caste has sub-castes: American, Italian, etc. I.e., the mere use of the words 'jaati' and 'caste' does not mean much. RZ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 6 14:43:06 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 15:43:06 +0100 Subject: Civility on the list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062356.23782.4279178315274597643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > I was seeking to point out that these words have extremely > powerful connotations for Europeans, which may give an impression entirely > different from what the writer intended. May I draw members' attention to the very interesting article by Antony Black, "Decolonizing concepts" in the Journal of Early Modern studies 1 (1997): 55--69. Black discusses a number of English language terms, mainly in the context of their inappropriate application to Islamic history and culture. It is a good study of this issue. Does anyone else with medievalist or Islamic studies colleagues find that these communities use the term "pagan" rather freely? I have heard it used often, unreflectingly, and I'm always surprised. Dominik From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 6 15:55:06 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 15:55:06 +0000 Subject: Munda word for Horse Message-ID: <161227062362.23782.8046901881480464052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel writes that "sadom" (Pinnow 1959:78) is the word for horse in Munda languages. Horse is a late entrant into India, only around 1700 BCE. Tamil word for horse is 'kurirai', (< 'kuti' "to jump"). How old is "sadom" in Munda languages? Is it in Proto-Munda? Or, something like when Notes 1 & 2 are used: kutira > *katam > (munda) "sadom Thanks for comments, N. Ganesan Note 1: -u/o- > -a- a)tamil ku_lampu & skt. karambha 'gruel' b)tam. kokku, kuruku & skt. kaGka c) tel. mokkana > skt. matkuna (Kuiper). Note 2: There are many non-IA words in Sanskrit showing k- > "s- pairs. Eg., karkoTa/"sarkoTa, kimIdin/"simIdin, etc., _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 6 15:10:48 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 16:10:48 +0100 Subject: Inoculation In-Reply-To: <20001005195722.28234.qmail@web312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062359.23782.3241952635279488795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > It looks inoculation was widely in use in Europe dating to at least > 17th century. Lady Mary brought the technique of *inoculation* from Istanbul in 1717. It was not widely known in Europe before that date. The precursor practice your author refers to as "buying the smallpox" was not, as far as recorded sources show, inoculation. It consisted in going to a victim's house and buying smallpox scabs; sometimes these were rubbed on the back of the hand. There is no clear evidence of the skin being broken in these transactions, and certainly no medical understanding of the purpose of the action. The general belief seems to have been that one could attract the "kindly pox", which sounds a little like some traditional attitudes to Mariamman/Sitala in India. If this topic interests you, may I suggest Genevieve Miller's fine study, _The adoption of inoculation for smallpox in England and France_ (Philadelphia: Univ. of Penn. Press, 1957), which gives lots more detail and reference. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 7 00:00:19 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 17:00:19 -0700 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062381.23782.241537894593575019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: <> No sir. I have quoted verbatim. My chanced-upon informants responded in English. They used the English expression ?caste-Christian.? Kindly, Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 6 18:48:53 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 19:48:53 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062368.23782.6447535417973037265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Stepen, > >Yes. And you raise a charming point really. I lived a >good year down around the Trivandrum-Varkala area of >Kerala in the 80?s. And a very typical on-the-street >reply that I would get from random Christians was, >?caste-Christian.? > >Always, > >Tantra You mean "High" Caste Christians? Syrian Christians of Kerala (largest group of Christains in Kerala) consider them to be Namboothiri converts to Christianity just like some Jews of Bombay claimed that the local Konkanashta Brahmins are Jewish converts to Hinduism (all self serving ?myths? created by middle eastern immigrants without any historic evidence), hence their emphasis on ?high? caste status, but Kerala is also home to Christians who were converted since the Portuguese era to the current times, who are usually from formerly ?lower? castes. Even some formerly evangelically aloof Syrian churches have managed to convert indigenous Malayalees into their numerous sects but still will not allow common communion. Recently PBS in the US ran a program on this where a ?Paraih? Christian laments that he along with other ?Dalit? Christians are not allowed into ?high? caste Syrian Churches. http://www.pbs.org/pressroom/2000/summer/releases/outofindia.htm (It is a very inaccurate program in other respects) Raveen. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 6 21:36:49 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 00 22:36:49 +0100 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062374.23782.13854043459937742641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >You mean "High" Caste Christians? > >Syrian Christians of Kerala (largest group of Christains in Kerala) >consider them to be Namboothiri converts to Christianity just like some >Jews of Bombay claimed that the local Konkanashta Brahmins are Jewish >converts to Hinduism reversal of the myth, you guys thought only Rajaram had an agenda :-( http://hotyellow98.com/kunjethy/p6.html From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Oct 6 23:12:29 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 00:12:29 +0100 Subject: Civility on the list Message-ID: <161227062376.23782.16003521651978007135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: > Your sensitive post alludes to the European past when > "heresy" was used as a Dark Age tool of terror and > coercion. Yet the Greek term "hairesis" lacked any negative connotations -- it was just a neutral term for a "school" of people or thought. The Latin equivalent "secta" meant the same. Oh for the good old days ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Oct 6 23:12:48 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 00:12:48 +0100 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062379.23782.263918249511597453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: > But also think about this - what makes you think that "Hindus" as you term > them, do not get offended when you try to group them as an entity apart from > Buddhists? As far as I can see, you have inverted the original point. If Hindus want to group themselves with Buddhists, that is fine by me although there would perhaps arise some problems in those areas where Buddhism differs (as you are well aware in view of your other msg today) from Hindu beliefs. But don't be surprised if some Buddhists -- Asian or Western are not entirely happy about being grouped by Hindus with Hindus -- with no disrespect intended towards Hinduism. I was talking to one Hindu recently who thought that Buddhism is a montheistic religion in which each individual has a personal soul -- which doesn't sound like any Buddhism I have encountered. > As you all know, the Hindu tradition views the Buddha as an > avatAram of Lord NArAyana. Yes, and you are being a little disengenuous about the purpose of this avataaram as another subscriber has pointed out -- or perhaps his comment does not count since he is an outsider Westerner. > But that still is not the same as getting Buddhism from Indian monks > as in the days of yore, is it? You keep shifting the goal-posts :) As you very well know, without a time machine this is not possible. Because all living Buddhists are "second-generation" (even if Asian) does that somehow reduce the value of their transmission of the Dharma ? Out of interest, what status do you ascribe to Buddhist monks in Srilanka ? Are they "Indian" by your definition ? Would they be an acceptable substitute for the now extinct monks from the mainland ? > But isn't there a difference in the way Europeans and Asians view > Buddhism? Isn't the European/American approach more "reasoned" than > the Asian approach? I do not intend this to sound discourteous, but what is you actual experience of Buddhist practitioners (NOT academics) in the West ? I get the feeling you have little or no first hand experience. I have taught and attended a large numbers of Buddhist centres in Europe and the "reasoned approach" you allude to does not seem to be predominant. Myself, I specialize both as a humble scholar and practitioner in Tantric Buddhism -- hardly a form of Buddhism that "lays stress on reason" ! Likewise, I do not see much emphasis on "reason" in Zen nor Pure Land Buddhism as practised in the West. Theravada seems mixed according to which tradition one follows -- here the "forest-dweller" tradition is popular, emphasizing meditation and down-playing the "rational intellectual abhidharma" approach. With sincere respect, I suggest you come along and see for yourself especially as you seem unhappy about us poor Westerners making statements about the nature of Hinduism in India while simultaneously allowing youself the priviledge of defining us without apparent first-hand knowledge on your part. > In short what attracts Europeans/Americans to Buddhism? In Asia, I would > think that it was the personality and confidence of the Indian monks, > their unique message of ethics and love, probably in some cases the lack of > native religions, their own piety - these might have been the main factors > behind Asians embracing Buddhism. On the contrary, that is exactly why many (but obviously not all) Westerners are attracted to Buddhism in the first place as these virtues are equally well exemplified in their non-Indian Asian teachers ! Your concept of the appeal of the "rational" aspects of Buddhism to Westerners seems to be based on the pre-1939 opinions of early Western Buddhists -- a bit out of date ? > Yes, but that's more a doctrinal standpoint. What're the main differences > between the religion preached by the Buddha and the Brahmanical religion? [Snip] I agree in general terms with your comments which followed but I do feel you rather over-simplify the situation to suit your own position. We can return to that another time. > But do Tibetans and Burmese name themselves as Gautama or Siddhartha ? Who said the Buddha was Tibetan ? If the Shakya polity inhabitants were of Tibeto-Burman stock, their proximity to the culturally and spiritually superior lands to their immediate south would have resulted in a desire to emulate various aspects of those lands -- without necessarily lessening any intrinsic differences. I know many Chinese people who have adopted Western "first-names" but they still view themselves as Chinese first and formost. Or else consider the post-war Japanese who have embraced many aspects of American culture with an almost embarrassing gusto -- but this still does not make them Americans, does it ? > a Chinese who converts to Buddhism could still retain his his own cultural background - > name, dress, food (as long as it is compatible with the fundemental tenets > of Buddhism) - follow the dharma and be Buddhist. So you really agree with me -- one can be a Buddhist without being a Hindu ! Ask any Chinese Buddhist if they think they are really crypto-Hindus and I think you will get only one reply. If you think they should be classed as Hindus that is up to you but is it not a little presumptious for you to decide for them with first consulting with them -- self-determination and all that stuff. > Also why go against the Buddhist scriptures themselves who affirm that > Gautama was a Hindu Kshatriya ? Please supply references for this claim -- I thought we had all agreed that the term "Hindu" was primarily a late arrival on the scene. Do we have previously unnoticed early occurences of the term here ? A pretty revolutionary discovery ! > Aren't those very scriptures the basis of your faith in the religion ? > I think this comparison is flawed - for neither the Buddha > nor those from whom he tried to learn the truth, from anywhere outside > India. Please re-read your earlier statement to which I was replying. I think my comparison is perfectly adequate. > Buddha's in-depth knowledge of brahmanical **philosophical** systems. Which might those be ? ("Philosophical" highlighted by me) Perhaps it is a matter of definition, but I see the Upanishads to be less philosophical than spiritual. But no matter -- he gained "an in-depth knowledge" by studying them -- but that still does not make him a "Hindu". Know thy enemy, perhaps ? The Buddha's rejection of virtually all the key Upanishadic teachings is apparent from a cursory reading of any number of Pali suttas. > the acute philosophical bent of his religion which needs a prior existing > philosophical basis etc. But have you not contradicted yourself here ? Philosophy to me implies reason but you said in your posting that this was not a central feature of Buddhism: ""Buddhism's stress on reason wouldn't have been as important as the above mentioned factors (= ethics and love). This would have appealed only to the intellectual minority"". I really get the feeling you want to have your cake and eat it. > It is not very easy to answer all these questions if Gautama is not an Indian. Perhaps if you are Nanda Chandran :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Sat Oct 7 14:10:38 2000 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 10:10:38 -0400 Subject: Hands Of Goddess Durga:Victory Over Evil Asur ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062391.23782.18350141045304119890.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> October 7, 2000 TO: Indology E-Discussion Group RE: "Hands Of Goddess Durga": Victory Over Evil "Asur" HYPOTHESIS: Memory Of An Ancient Migration From Babylon To Historic India. Tribal memory of a victory of forces of "good" over "evil". Is this hypothesis possible ? Yes or No ? SUMMARY DISCUSSION: By the year 612 BC, two centers of Assyrian power, Nineveh and Nimrod were destroyed. The oppressive power of the Assyrians for over a century that terrorized all of the Fertile-Crescent tribal nations including the two sister Hebrew kingdoms to the west was finally broken. This momentous victory was credited by modern archeologists and historians to an alliance between Nabopolassar, the founder of the neo-Babylonian empire, and Cyaxeres, the emerging Indo-European , proto-Persian tribal leader of the Medes (according the Greek Herodotus). This was a momentous event for all of the Babylonian tribes that participated in that war. This momentous event became a oral tribal memory for the Babylonians who composed Naboplassar's army . This victory symbolized (by the tribal king and his soldiers,) as a victory of "good" represented by the Babylonian war goddess, Goddess Ishwar, "against "evil", Asur (Assyrian) (not sure if I remember her name correctly from the NYC library archeology book where I remember the picture of the escavated Babylonian goddess statue with four hands). Stories were told and retold in campfires, and in temples, and celebrated in centuries following and became part of the oral tradition of surviving Babylonian tribes. Persia as a nation was beginning to emerge then with amalgamation of the older Elamite culture, and as the leadership of the emerging tribes of Media, and other surrounding Indo-European tribes who had stormed into this region as they did in the neighboring Indus Valley. Persian tribal power continued to increase, as the Babylonians went into decline in the following centuries. Then in 539 BC, Cyrus, The Persian, entered the gates of Babylon with his massive forces. He set free the Hebrew nation held in bondage there since 605 BC. This momentous "freedom" event became a part of the permanent memory of the Hebrews in the centuries following and were recorded in the documents that later became known as the Old Testaments, sacred to the Judeo/Christians of today. When Cyrus arrival in the outskirts, a few Babylonian tribes elected not to engage Cyrus in battle. Instead, they secretly escaped eastward toward a new potential homeland, along a little known trade route hugging the sea coast, toward Historic India. Upon arriving in India, slowly the tribe moved eastward, negotiating passage with the local Rajas, until they arriving in the Punjab area where they settled. Over the centuries, their war goddess remained a primary deity in the tribal memory. In the ensuing centuries, this goddess was remembered by her varied personifications as such emerged via the creativity of the folklore history of the tribal memories. Sometimes she personified as Katyani, with four hands, and tiger bahan. Sometimes she was Chandraghanta, four hands and bullock bahan. Then later, she also became, Kushmanda, with 8 hands and a tiger bahan. And finally, she became Durga, with her 10 hands and a lion bahan as the memory of a momentous victory of the forces of good over evil Asur! Bengali Goddess Durga Celebration is then a tribal memory of a victory of the forces of "good" over "evil" of a real battle long ago, in the ancient holi lands of the Fertile Crescent where Hebrews were held in bondage, and were set free by the Persian, Cyrus The Great ! The memory of the Hebrews survived in the Hebrew written "Old Testament" . The memory of the Babylonians did not survive in the ensuing centuries as the Babylondians disappeared as a separate nation. The tribal memory of a victory of forces of "good" over "evil" were brought to historic India by these peaceful remnant tribes of Babylon and fused into the Hindu religious memory in the "hands of Goddess Durga" in today's annual holy celebration of victory of the forces of "good" over "evil" in the worship of Goddess Durga in Hindu temples from Punjab to Bengal. Is this hypothesis possible ? Yes or No ? Avi Dey, Coordinator, NSW3 "A community based society for pursuit of harmony and life long learning" www.tein.org, click on NSW3 (under construction) [admin note: changed date from Sat, 7 Oct 1972 10:10:38 -0400] From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Oct 7 09:53:15 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 11:53:15 +0200 Subject: Fw: Re: Indology in Russian Message-ID: <161227062383.23782.6199600655409395305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr Y. Vassilkov" To: "Indology" Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Re: Indology in Russian > I still appreciate very much Dr. Ganesan's bibliographic erudition in spite > of the fact that, due to a slip of pen, he gave us a reference to another > (very interesting, too) review by Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty: "In Praise of > the Nineteenth-century Hindu Mythologists" (South Asian Review, vol. 6, No. > 4, July 1973, pp. 332-335). The exact reference for the article in question > would be: > Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty. Disregarded Scholars: A Survey of Russian > Indology. - "South Asian Review", Vol. 5, No. 4, July 1972, pp. 289-304. > All the best > Ya.V. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "N. Ganesan" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:27 AM > Subject: Re: Indology in Russian > > > > Greetings. Wendy wrote in a magazine from London. > > > > W. D. O'Flaherty, Disregarded scholars: a survey of > > Russian Indology, South Asian Review 6 (1972) 332-5 > > > > Regards, > > N. Ganesan > > > > ----------- > > Yes, it was after her visit to Moscow and Leningrad (now > > St.-Petersburg again) about 25 years ago. The title (or subtitle) > > was "The disregarded scholars". She reviewed mostly the works of > > Indologists belonging to Moscow-Tartu school of structural studies. > > Some of the people mentioned here soon after that had to emigrate, > > but others left. Unfortunately, I can not give the precise reference. > > An American magazine. The article never reached the libraries of > > the USSR. > > Ya.V. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > Didn't Wendy Doniger (O'Flaherty) write a survey of Russian Indology > > > some years ago? > > > > > > Allen Thrasher > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > http://profiles.msn.com. > From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Oct 7 10:03:44 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 12:03:44 +0200 Subject: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: "heresy" discussion) Message-ID: <161227062386.23782.6215256995100696913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> how did "hairesis" -- originally a rather neutral concept (as Ven Tantra and Stephen Hodge pointed out) -- get its heavy connotations of terror and reprobation? Its literal meaning is simply and (in contrast with these connotations) beautifully just 'taking', 'choice', 'adopting'. One of the decisive periods in the European genesis of the concept of "heresy" was the early middle ages, and one of the formative influences in that period came "from the east". A book came recently on my desk which is rich in material on this period; because of the above and for some of its sections it may be of interest to readers of this list and to anyone interested in comparative history: Before the Burning Times: Rediscovering the Lives, Beliefs and Deaths of Witches, Pagans, and Heretics. Written and Illustrated by Mark Chapman. Ca. 880 pp. Rus Publishing, P.O. Box 471, Altona, Victoria, Australia 3028. www.ruspublishing.com.au The book deals with an enormous amount of data related to the folk migrations of Persian and Asiatic Easterners into Mediaeval Eastern (esp. the area of present day Russia) and Western Europe. In the words of the author, p. 806: "Much of Before the Burning Times examines and recreates the era of the Magian presence in Mediaeval Rus', the conversion of that country to Christianity, and the role the ensuing exodus of Pagan Magi and dualist sorcerers played in the re-emergence of magic and heresy in Western Europe during the Middle Ages." A few chapters would be directly relevant to readers of this list: Chapter I: The Beginnings contains sections on "The Indo-Europeans", "The Aryan Hordes". Chapter V: The White Rites, sections on "The coronation of a king", "Soma (Sima) rituals", "Asvamedha". The way data from different disciplines and areas are brought together is often inspiring and stimulating. Yet, even at this stage of quickly looking at several passages some serious criticisms come to my mind. The way the concepts of race and nation are used to bring order in the mass of data are not very convincing. A theory of Aryan hordes conquering India is adopted which is nowadays accepted by hardly anyone. The author would have been on safer grounds if he took as his startingpoint e.g. The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity, edited by George Erdosy, Berlin/New York: De Gruyter, 1995, rather than Mallory's by now somewhat dated book In search of the Indo-Europeans (1989). The chronology of the Vedas' oral and written tradition is occasionally fantastic and appears without proper supportive references on p. 489: "The Vedas are said to have been held in oral form for some 3,000 years before the Aryan Hindu priests finally recorded them on birch papyri once they acquired the use of brahmi Asoka sanskrit [sic!], which was itself influenced by Semitic scripts, ingeniously adapted for Indo-Aryan use. This occurred in India c. 700 BC", is supported with a reference to Encyclopedia Britannica (no page or volume indicated). On p. 259, however, we read: "The Rig Veda, Yajur Veda and Sama Veda texts of the Indo-Aryans are thought to have originated sometime between 1200-900 BC . . . " with a reference to O Flaherty, The Rigveda, p. 119-137. On pp. 260 ff. the Soma-plant is identified as the European Mountain Ash or Rowan tree (Sorbus Aucuparia), whereas the Haoma is distinctly identified as the Golden Ash or Fraxinus Excelsior Aurea (p. 279), in my view on very flimsy grounds, and without even mentioning one of the major theories among Indologists for several decades which identifies Soma/Haoma as Ephedra (the Amonita muscaria theory is mentioned). From the point of view of Indo-european and Indological studies the book is rather vague in its references and arguments, but it does bring together interesting pieces of information (which one would have to check in the cited sources before trusting them and building on them). One of the author's main conclusions is that the European pagans have strong ties with the Persian Magi (cf. p. 806). I thought this was already known (some early indologist, if I am not mistaken, linked the "thread" which the Inquisition regarded as one of the signs of an accused being "pagan" with the initiatory thread of the Zoroastrians, which in turn is related to the thread of the Indian upanayana) although so far no attempt was made to bring together so many relevant data esp. from Eastern Europe and Russia. Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 7 13:52:21 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 13:52:21 +0000 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062388.23782.4353380028516749702.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: > But do Tibetans and Burmese name themselves as Gautama >or Siddhartha? Like Cambodian and Southeast Asian kings were named Jayavarman, Indravarman, Adityavarman, Purnavarman (with typical tamil name endings with an -n)> But they are not South Indians ethnically. Best regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 7 15:03:20 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 15:03:20 +0000 Subject: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: "heresy" discussion) Message-ID: <161227062395.23782.8592570331472692529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recently I watched a Dicovery channel program on the last chapter in the Bible, the apocalypse. A fine comparative study. It talked about two destructins by war of a great temple, and reworking that memory into this last chapter in 4th cent. CE or so. It talked of Alexander, Indo-Greeks etc., Showed about Parsees worshipping fire, Vedic homa and, how IE ideas about light and dark are integrated. Appreciate any references about analysis of the Bibl'e last chapter and, comparative history/myth integration. Many Thanks. --------- Vishnu is called mAl = 'black' one in Tamil. In all sangam texts, Vishnu is "maal", and Alvars sing of black one sleeping on the serpent couch many times. In tamil, na.l has two meanings 1) black and 2) center. naa.l= night and, nA.lmI_n = nakshatram... So, nALagiri/nAlagiri(elephant in buddha myth), nArAyana, nala (MBh.) all are related to 'black' color. Note DraupatI whose personal name is the black one (krishnaa) is nalAyini in a former birth. In early Tamil literature, the prefered skin color is black. Some references fron sangam texts is given in this list before. This is in direct contrast with praising whiteness/lightness of the RV (Geldner's translation passages in Dr. Hock's paper, Looking through the glass ...) It will make a good contribution if the early Dravidian ideas on colors ia analyzed in depth, and compared with those from Skt. philology. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Sat Oct 7 14:54:31 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 16:54:31 +0200 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062393.23782.7678280335367769470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote: > But do Tibetans and Burmese name themselves as Gautama > or Siddhartha? Tibetan monks and nuns receive at their ordination Indian religious names in Tibetan translation. I do not think the names Gautama or Siddhartha are used, but the Buddha's clan name zAkya is commonly used in translitteration (instead of translation) in several of the Tibetan traditions. Common people also receive such Indian Buddhist dharma-names in Tibetan translation when accepted as lay-persons into the Buddhist community through the zaraNa-ritual. Moreover, the Tibetan aristocracy commonly claim genealogical histories back to the Indian licchavi or zAkya tribes, which mainly seems to be for the sake of (religious) status. Legends abound about how these links were established, but the historical facts seem rather doubtful. Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Oct 7 21:46:51 2000 From: amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Andrea Marion Pinkney) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 17:46:51 -0400 Subject: Summer Malayalam In-Reply-To: <20001007000019.13172.qmail@web1002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062402.23782.15132810284642587499.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I have a student who wants to study introductory Malayalam this summer in the United States. She has contacted Texas and Penn but nothing concrete... I (she) would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks, Andrea From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 7 19:26:54 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 19:26:54 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062397.23782.1964211886847961334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>>Dravidian cannot be excluded from Buddha's ethnicity analysis either. NG>>Like Krishna, he married his cross-cousin, a practice NG>>much prevalent in the south so much so it gets the name NG>>Dravidian kinship. (Cf. T. Trautmann's works). NG>>Perhaps just after few centuries of bilingualism, NG>>kinship remains, but langauge is IA. << Culturally Indo-Aryan Sinhalese of Sri Lanka and Divehis of Maldives (Ref. Clarence Maloney, Where Did the Maldives People Come From?) indulged in cross - cousin marriages till recently, we are talking about more than few generations here :-) But cross cousin marriages are not limited to Dravidian speakers alone in India but also Austro -Asiatics. Raveen>> Dravidian and Munda kinships are different, acc. to anthropologists. There is no symmetric cross-cousin 'give-and-take' marriages in Munda systems. I have even seen Dravidian kinship systems (with some variants) applied to Australian Kariera, American Indian groups, but none with Munda. Mohan Gautam, Santal-Munda kinship and Family, p. 111-128 (Changing patterns of family and kinship in South Asia, Helsinki, 1998) does not talk anything about Drav. kinship or any Munda group engaged in symmetrical bride exchanges. Dr. Gautam has spent decades among the Munda tribes. M. Godelier, T. Trautmann, Transformation of kinship, Smithsonian instituition, 1998. This important volume has many papers on drav.-type kinship systems. [eg., N. J. Allen, The prehistory of Dravidian-Type terminologies; Eduardo De Castro, Dravidian and related kinship systems, ...] A sample: Robert Parkin, Dravidian and Iroquois in South Asia, 252-70. p. 255 "While the Dravidian systems of south India are famous for being reasonably pure examples of two-line symmetric perspective, ... [...] At least in the north of the Munda area, regular systems of affinal alliance exist that are conceived indigenously not as a system of cross-cousin marriage but as ones involving exchange among sibling pairs defined as being eSbSpySb to one another (i.e., eZHyZ and eBWyZ for male ego, eZHyB and eBWyB for female ego). This goes along with a system that does not allow the immediate renewal of alliances between the same two alliance groups but does allow renewal subsequently, after the lapse of atleast one and, more typically, three generations. It also corresponds with the separation of affines from cross-cousin: If immediate renewal theough cross-cousin marriage is not allowed, WF cannot also be MB(ie., he cannot be the father of a cross-cousin), nor can WB also be a cross-cousin." Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 7 19:59:54 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 00 19:59:54 +0000 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062400.23782.13518546829772852253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Like Cambodian and Southeast Asian kings were named Jayavarman, >Indravarman, Adityavarman, Purnavarman (with typical >tamil name endings with an -n)> But they are not >South Indians ethnically. -varman with the -n ending is not indebted to Tamil. The Cambodian kings simply took Kshatriya-sounding names. "Venkataraman" shows Tamil influence, "Adityavarman" does not. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 7 23:37:08 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 00:37:08 +0100 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062406.23782.8631879692250524658.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > Moreover, the Tibetan aristocracy commonly claim genealogical histories back to the Indian licchavi or zAkya tribes, which mainly seems to be for the sake of (religious) status. Legends abound about how these links were established, but the historical facts seem rather doubtful. There is no inherent reason why this might not be so. According to legend, the first Tibetan king, Nyatri Tsenpo, first turned up in the Yarlung Valley. When he was asked where he came from, he pointed upwards towards to mountain at the southern end of the valley. The locals interpreted this gesture as meaning that he came from the skies but perhaps he was actually indicating the general direction from which he came -- from over the the mountains. The YarlungValley lies almost directly north on the other side of the Himalayas to the region formerly occupied by the Licchavis, with several important passes crossing the mountains in that area. One could surmise that Nyatri Tsenpo was a expatriate adventurer who had himself made king of the embryonic Tibetan stae. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 7 23:46:09 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 00:46:09 +0100 Subject: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: "heresy" discussion) Message-ID: <161227062409.23782.60386036147299743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan wrote: . > Appreciate any references about analysis of the > Bibl'e last chapter and, comparative history/myth > integration. Many Thanks. The Book of the Apocalypse / Revelations is generally thought to have been written c120 CE but seems to be a Christian re-working of typical Jewish apocalyptic writings that were common up until the end of the 2nd Temple Period (72 CE) -- several similar ones were found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). I have an interesting interpretive article which analyzes this text from a historical point of view I could send you off-list if you are interested. 2. Jan Houben wrote: >how did "hairesis" -- originally a rather neutral concept -- get its heavy > connotations of terror and reprobation? It first gained its negative overtones in the hands of the early Church Fathers around the 2nd - 3rd century CE when they were attacking rival brands of Christianity. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Oct 7 22:54:49 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 00:54:49 +0200 Subject: Hinduism: once was: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062404.23782.6965108667224530276.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 6 Oct 2000, um 17:00 schrieb Ven. Tantra: > Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > <> > > No sir. I have quoted verbatim. My chanced-upon > informants responded in English. They used the English > expression “caste-Christian.” It makes little difference. 'Jaati' means little more than 'a group of people' / 'community' distinguished by whatever characteristics. If their neighbours refer to them as a 'jaati' (which is commonly translated in English as 'caste', following the Portuguese 'casta'), they learn to identify themselves in those surroundings as a 'jaati' / 'caste' and will say so. But as the illustrations in my previous message show, this identification as a 'jaati' / 'caste' as hardly a basis for determining whether a person belongs to a religious or social community termed 'Hindu' (or even 'Indian'). It is a label in very flexible use in South Asian society, and its use in itself does not necessarily indicate inclusion of the other person / group of persons in the group of the speaker in any sense. -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen E-mail zydenbos at gmx.de Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 8 14:57:58 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 00 14:57:58 +0000 Subject: Date(s) of the Mahabharata War Message-ID: <161227062411.23782.7459959836465417423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some time ago Rajesh Kocchar made a valid observation that various scholars, though they use the same astronomical data, have come up with diferent dates of the Mahabharata War. He then made a plea for resolving such contradictions. In this context I would like to draw the attention of scholars to a book by Oscar Marcel Hinze, a psychologist of perception trained in astronomy--"Tantra Vidya: Based on Archaic Astronomy and Tantric Yoga" (trans V.M.Bedekar, Motilal Banarasidass 1979). Hinze argues that it would be unfair for modern scientists to propose uncritically that they would be able to know exactly what the ancient priest/astronomers of Babylon "saw or observed." Because, the way in which the modern scientist perceives is only one among the many possibilities of perception. One and the same "world of stimuli" does not necessarily lead to one and the same perception (pp 2-3). Hinze therefore argues for a more sensitive understanding of "archaic astronomy." He alludes to two kinds of numbers in ancient astronomy: (1) Period numbers, which are dependent on certain selected temporal units (day, week, month, year etc). Since the time of revolution of the Moon is a fixed period of 28 days or 4 weeks or 1 month; 28, 4, and 1 are known as period-numbers. There are as many period-numbers as there are units of time. (2) Gestalt numbers: In the period of four weeks, the Moon appears in different phases. If we bring together in our thought the four phases in the sky which correspond to the main phases, i.e. the three visible main phases and the new moon phase which is visible, we get a definite figure: a square. The number four, thus obtained, is called "gestalt-number" which refers to a "spatially fixed temporal form. It is, like a melody, a successive--i.e. a temporal form because it appears only in the course of time (see Hinze p.46-47). On this basis we can understand how Ptolemy could perceive a 20-year cycle of Mercury (see Hinze pp 56-57). Is it possible that the astronomical data in ancient Indian texts is similarly preserved in terms of "period" and "gestalt" numbers? This might explain, in part, the contradictions in the date of the Mahabharata War. Indologists need to take a closer look at Hinze's arguments as well as at the two sources he quotes--Hermann von Baravelle and Franz Boll. S.Tilak, Dept of religion, Concordia University, Montreal, Canada _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 9 13:21:06 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 06:21:06 -0700 Subject: Inoculation Message-ID: <161227062427.23782.5365559829544298122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > If this topic interests you, may I suggest Genevieve Miller's fine study, > _The adoption of inoculation for smallpox in England and France_ > (Philadelphia: Univ. of Penn. Press, 1957), which gives lots more detail > and reference. My kind thanks for your informative reply. S.Wilson, a professor of anthropology at University Of Texas, may be wrong. His book intended the general readership lists G. Miller (ed.), The letters of Edward Jenner, Johns Hopkins university press, 1983. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From tawady at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 9 05:25:20 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 06:25:20 +0100 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062414.23782.3172302552443159133.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 19:26:54 GMT, N. Ganesan wrote: >NG>>Dravidian cannot be excluded from Buddha's ethnicity analysis either. >NG>>Like Krishna, he married his cross-cousin, a practice >NG>>much prevalent in the south so much so it gets the name >NG>>Dravidian kinship. (Cf. T. Trautmann's works). >NG>>Perhaps just after few centuries of bilingualism, >NG>>kinship remains, but langauge is IA. > ><< >Culturally Indo-Aryan Sinhalese of Sri Lanka and Divehis of Maldives (Ref. >Clarence Maloney, Where Did the Maldives People Come From?) indulged in >cross - cousin marriages till recently, we are talking about more than few >generations here :-) But cross cousin marriages are not limited to >Dravidian speakers alone in India but also Austro -Asiatics. >Raveen>> > >Dravidian and Munda kinships are different, acc. to anthropologists. >There is no symmetric cross-cousin 'give-and-take' marriages >in Munda systems. I have even seen Dravidian kinship systems >(with some variants) applied to Australian Kariera, American Indian >groups, but none with Munda. > >Mohan Gautam, Santal-Munda kinship and Family, p. 111-128 >(Changing patterns of family and kinship in South Asia, >Helsinki, 1998) does not talk anything about Drav. >kinship or any Munda group engaged in symmetrical >bride exchanges. Dr. Gautam has spent decades among >the Munda tribes. > >M. Godelier, T. Trautmann, Transformation of kinship, >Smithsonian instituition, 1998. This important volume >has many papers on drav.-type kinship systems. >[eg., N. J. Allen, The prehistory of Dravidian-Type >terminologies; Eduardo De Castro, Dravidian >and related kinship systems, ...] > >A sample: >Robert Parkin, Dravidian and Iroquois in South Asia, 252-70. >p. 255 >"While the Dravidian systems of south India are famous >for being reasonably pure examples of two-line >symmetric perspective, ... > >[...] > >At least in the north of the Munda area, regular systems >of affinal alliance exist that are conceived indigenously >not as a system of cross-cousin marriage but as ones >involving exchange among sibling pairs defined as >being eSbSpySb to one another (i.e., eZHyZ and eBWyZ for >male ego, eZHyB and eBWyB for female ego). This goes >along with a system that does not allow the immediate >renewal of alliances between the same two alliance >groups but does allow renewal subsequently, after the >lapse of atleast one and, more typically, three >generations. It also corresponds with the separation >of affines from cross-cousin: If immediate renewal >theough cross-cousin marriage is not allowed, WF cannot >also be MB(ie., he cannot be the father of a cross-cousin), >nor can WB also be a cross-cousin." > >Regards, >N. Ganesan Thank you very much for your references. There is at least one Austro-Asiatc tribe namely the Ho of Bihar and Orissa who indulge in cross cousin marriages. "They trace their descent through the paternal line, and young people are expected to marry outside the paternal clan, but there is a prevalent custom of marrying one's cousin on the maternal side. Marriage by elopement and by abduction are also traditionally common." http://www.britannica.co.in/spotlights/bihar/ As you pointed out in your original post anthropologists point out that the cross cousin marriage custom among the Sinhalese and the Divehis point to their Dravidian origins. Regards Raveen From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT Mon Oct 9 10:02:17 2000 From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 11:02:17 +0100 Subject: new books Message-ID: <161227062416.23782.8068253364032241852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to be able to announce two new books: Horst LASIC, J?anasrimitras Vyapticarca. San-skrit-text, ?bersetzung, Analyse. Wien: Arbeitskreis f?r Tibetische und Buddhistische Studien, Universit?t Wien, 2000. (ATS 240,- / EUR 17,44) Horst LASIC, Ratnakirtis Vyaptinirnaya. San-skrit-text, ?bersetzung, Analyse. Wien: Arbeitskreis f?r Tibetische und Buddhistische Studien, Universit?t Wien, 2000. (ATS 120,-/ EUR 8,72) J?anasrimitra is an outstanding representative of the late phase of the so-called logico-epistemological school of Buddhism in India, which goes back to Dignaga and Dharmakirti. In a series of essays he discusses the central topics of his tradition. Being fully acquainted with the literature of rival Buddhist and non-Buddhist schools, J?anasrimitra does not only give original answers to philosophical questions, but also provides us with a large amount of information on the historical development of the related discussions. In the Vyapticarca, J?anasrimitra deals with the possibility of a constant and therefore reliable relationship between things such as smoke and fire, the concepts of which are intended to be used as the logical reason and the consequence in an inference. Besides dealing with the more technical aspects of different procedures of ascertaining the said relationship, he also discusses topics of a more general philosophical interest, for instance about the reality of general properties or about the status of things useful for practical goals and their capacity of becoming an object of cognition. Ratnakirti was a personal pupil of J?anasrimitra. In the Vyaptinirnaya he deals mainly with the same questions as treated by his teacher in the Vyapticarca, which he uses as a model for his work. Apart from some newly introduced discussions, the most striking differences to the Vyapticarca lie in the more tense structuring of the text, a more lucid presentation of the different arguments, and in a shift of emphasis from proving one's own opinion to refusing the opinions advocated by opponents. Both books provide - a general introduction - a critical edition of the text in Sanskrit - a translation in German, including notes discussing the content and referring to the historical settings - an analysis of the content - a bibliography - various indices (among them a word index of the Sanskrit text) Both books may be useful to persons with an interest in Buddhism and Indian philosophy, large parts being accessible also to those not reading German. Copies can be orderd from: Arbeitskreis f?r Tibetische und Buddhistische Studien Universit?tscampus AAKH Spitalgasse 2-4, Hof 2 A-1090 Wien Austria Best wishes, Horst Lasic Institute for Asian Studies Austrian Academy of Sciences Strohgasse 45/2/4 A-1030 Wien Austria From giravani at JUNO.COM Mon Oct 9 11:31:57 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 12:31:57 +0100 Subject: Thanks for references Message-ID: <161227062419.23782.8505582517811336458.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to thank Dr.Robert Zydenbos, Dr.Allen W. Thrasher and Mr. Dominik Wujastyk for offering references on Shadkhandagama.N.Joshi. From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Mon Oct 9 15:16:15 2000 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 17:16:15 +0200 Subject: Parution d'un livre Message-ID: <161227062429.23782.8726372313558130592.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chers amis-es de la liste, Je suis heureux de vous annoncer la parution du livre RELIGIONS ET VIOLENCES que j'ai eu le plaisir d'?diter. Plusieurs auteurs - pour une grande partie les professeur-e-s des universit?s suisses et fran?aises ont contribu? ? cet ouvrage qui traite le ph?nom?ne de la violence dans les religions et du point de vue des religions. La table des mati?res vous donnera un aper?u des contributions. Avec mes meilleures salutations. Anand Nayak RELIGIONS ET VIOLENCES Symposium Sous la direction de Anand Nayak Editions universitaires , Fribourg, Suisse ISBN 2.8271.0878-x SOMMAIRE Pr?face 1. INTRODUCTION Religions et violences Anand Nayak La " religion douce " et l'?thique du monde. Un pas vers la paix ? Richard Friedli 2. HINDOUISME Violence dans l'hindouisme Anand Nayak h Violence et conscience. Etude sur la fonction sot?rio logique de la violence dans le shiva?sme du Cachemire Colette Poggi 98 Violence et non?violence, mod?le et contre?mod?le dans le contexte de l'Inde moderne Maya Burger 129 ?yurveda : massages ? l'huile, bains de vapeur et petites plantes. Les dessous d'une douceur annonc?e Fran?oise Jeannotat 149 3. BOUDDHISME Violence dans le bouddhisme Anand Nayak 165 4. CHRISTIANISME Violence dans le christianisme Anand Nayak 185 La douceur et le sacr?. Les sacrifices de la Bible comme expression de la douceur divine Adrian Schenker 219 5. ISLAM Violence dans l'Islam Anand Nayak 231 La projection d'agressivit? sur une religion dans des situations de conflit Jacques Waardenburg 240 6. ANTIQUITE/ PSYCHANALYSE Sacrifices, rites et psychanalyse Anand Nayak 261 A propos du Taurobolium antonin de 160 ap. J.?C. et de la violence sacrificielle.Les figures multiples de l'Autre et de l'Unau service de l'Aeternitas St?phane Benoist 267 La violence sacrificielle : faits et r?flexions Walter Burkert 296 Sexualit?, violence et religion Thierry de Saussure 314 7. CONCLUSION Dogmatisme religieux conduisant ? l'intol?rance John B. Taylor 331 Comprendre la violence. Pour une culture de la non?violence Anand Nayak 340 From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 9 20:10:43 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 20:10:43 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062432.23782.428676596155511455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Thank you very much for your references. There is at least one >Austro-Asiatc >tribe namely the Ho of Bihar and Orissa who indulge in cross cousin >marriages. "They trace their descent through the paternal line, and young >people are expected to marry outside the paternal clan, but there is a >prevalent custom of marrying one's cousin on the maternal side. Marriage by >elopement and by abduction are also traditionally common." >http://www.britannica.co.in/spotlights/bihar/ This web site is not a detailed study. Munda and Dravidian kinships are different. Mathematically, do the Hos do "straight sister-exchanges" in marriages? There is a gap of usually a minimum of 3 generations for marriage between cousins, different from the Dravidian symmetrical cross-cousin bridal exchanges within the same generation. R. Parkin, Munda kinship terminologies, Man, 20, 705-21, 1985. Does Parkin ( (i) Prescriptive alliance in Southeast Asia: The Austroasiatic evidence, Sociologus, 36, 1, 52-64 (ii) Prescription and Transformation in Mon-Khmer Kinship terminologies, Sociologus, 38, 1, 55-68) compare with the classic Drav. kinship?? W.H.R.Rivers, "The marriage of cousins in India", JRAS, 1907, pp. 611-640 On the other hand, epic marriages in MBh and other texts from old North is of Dravidian pattern. Prof. G. v. Simson gave a reference in this list a while ago. A. M. Hocart, "Buddha and Devadatta", Indian Antiquary 52 (1923), p. 267-72. I can add one more: AMH, Buddha and Devadatta II, Indian Antiquary, vol. 54, Oct. 1925, pp. 98-99. I give in the end some portions K. Mitra illustrating the importance of cross-cousin marriage in the North. Just as the bilingualism was lost, the later dharmashastras started insisting these weddings are wrong. Perhaps to reinforce the difference between IA and Dravidian ways of life. >As you pointed out in your original post anthropologists point out that the >cross cousin marriage custom among the Sinhalese and the Divehis point to >their Dravidian origins. The Maldives Dravidian substratum is researched by C. Maloney at: http://iias.leidenuniv.nl/iiasn/iiasn5/insouasi/maloney.html The Sinhalese also exhibit a Dravidian kinship pattern: R. L. Stirrat, Dravidian and Non-Dravidian kinship terminologies in Sri Lanka. Contrib. Ind. Sociology, 11, 271-93, 1977. Nur Yalman i) Under the Bo tree, 1967 ii) The structure of the Sinhalese kindred: A re-examination of the Dravidian terminology, American Anthropologist, 1962, 64:548-75. Best Regards, N. Ganesan Cross-cousin Relation Between Buddha and Devadatta. Mitra, Kalipada. Indian Antiquary, pp.125--128 " References to the cross-cousin system are to be found in the Brahmana and Sutra literature. Westermarck in his History of Human Marriage (p. 304) says, " yet in the older literature marriage with the daughters of the mother's brother and sons of the father's sister is permitted " and quotes passages in support of this in the footnote. Weber: (Die Kastenver- haltnisse in dem Brahman und Sutra' in Indische Studien, vol. X, pp. 75 et sep. Pradyumna married the daughter of Rukmi, his mother Rukmini's brother.(13) Arjuna married his mother's brother's daughter, Subhadra (Krshna's sister). We need not examine here whether Krshna and Arjuna were Aryans or Non-Aryans, to determine whether the custom was Aryan or Non-Aryan. Anyhow it shows that the custom prevailed in Northern India. Arjuna married her in the Rakshasa form by abducting her, which involved him in a fight with the Yadavas, his cross-cousin relations. This may point to the rivalry adverted to by Mr. Hocart, but then it militates against the great friendship which existed between Krshna and the Pandavas. King Avimaraka in Bhasa's drama Avimaraka marries Kurangi, the daughter of his mother's brother, Kuntibhoja. Madhavacarya in his commentary on Parasara Samhita says that though marriage with a mother's brother's daughter is against the practice of wise men in Northern India (Udicyacishta garhilam) yet being a good practice in the Dekhan, this system is not indecorous (avinita) in Northern India. The Crutis support it (matulasutavivahasyanugrahakah Crutyadayah), and he quotes Rg Veda (7. 4. 3. 22. 6--trptam jahurmatulasyeva yosha, etc.) , as being the mantravarna used in that marriage. References to this marriage are also contained in Kumarila Bhatta's Tantravartika (pp. 127--129, Benares edition) and Viramitrodaya-Samskara-prakaca (pp. 139--141, 172, 203)(14) But as I have not sufficiently investigated this line of evidence, I am unable to say if it strengthens Mr. Hocart's theory of cross-cousin rivalry. Mysterious are the ways in which the seeds and pollen of a myth or custom are carried and propagated and Mr. Hocart's theory demands serious investigation." _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 9 20:28:17 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 00 20:28:17 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062435.23782.18226559069345360673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I give in the end some portions K. Mitra illustrating the importance >of cross-cousin marriage in the North. Just as the bilingualism was lost, >the later dharmashastras started insisting these weddings are wrong. >Perhaps to reinforce the difference between IA and Dravidian ways of life. 1. The dharmasastras are predominantly meant for Brahmin families. Other communities in the north may have emulated Brahmin customs and rules, leading to a decrease in cross-cousin marriages. 2. The dharmasastras always made allowances where established custom differed, e.g. cross-cousin marriages were allowed even for Brahmins, in the south. 3. Scientifically speaking, cross-cousin marriages (and also a woman marrying her maternal uncle) are simply not a good idea, especially when the pattern is repeated for a few generations. The whole point of sexual reproduction is to increase genetic diversity. Marrying among close relatives goes against this evolutionary trend. That something was culturally followed by some groups of people at some point of time does not mean that the custom should never undergo change. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Oct 10 02:06:45 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 03:06:45 +0100 Subject: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: "heresy" discussion) Message-ID: <161227062437.23782.2405773930188664708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > On pp. 260 ff. > the Soma-plant is identified as the European Mountain Ash or Rowan tree > (Sorbus Aucuparia), whereas the Haoma is distinctly identified as the Golden > Ash or Fraxinus Excelsior Aurea (p. 279), in my view on very flimsy grounds, > and without even mentioning one of the major theories among Indologists for > several decades which identifies Soma/Haoma as Ephedra (the Amonita muscaria > theory is mentioned There is also the theory presented by David Stoppard Flattery and Martin Schwarz in their "Haoma and Harmaline" that Haoma / Soma was the harmel plant, based on Iranian sources. This theory also explains why ephedra is often linked to Soma -- you need it in combination with harmeline to stay alert / awake. Seems more convincing to me than the Amanita muscaria theory. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 10 13:45:45 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 06:45:45 -0700 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062446.23782.4995150357516544681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > >I think, it is long shot to claim that the arrival of ShankarAchArya or > >Ramanuja catalyzed the re-conversion back to Hinduism. > > >It is more due to NayanmAr (especially Sambanthar, Appar and > >Manickavasagar) and AlwAr (especially three muthal Alwars). > >This re-conversion was at the end of KaLappirar rule and the start of > >Pallava rule. History is more clear on that. > > I wouldn't be too sure about that. For this assumes that the whole of > India or say southern India was conversant with Tamil. Though I wouldn't > contest this in case of TN and Kerala, but upwards North, I'm sceptical. The decline of Buddhism and Jainism is largely due to the "emotional" Bhakti movement of Shaivism/Vaishnavism. In Karnataka and Andhra regions, Veerashaivism poets/saints repeatedly cite the earlier saints further south, and use their stories in their wars against heretics. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 10 06:54:12 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 06:54:12 +0000 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062439.23782.3207865407064476853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav Vassilkov wrotes : >If you only take trouble to look into some Hindu sacred texts, such as, >e.g., PurANas, you would find that, according to them, Lord NArAyana took >his Buddha avatar for only one reason: to tempt the sinners and heretic >with >the worst possible, false doctrine and in this way make sure that they will >not escape hell. Do you mean it is in this particular way the Buddhism was >developed and sustained by the Hindus? According to some "sacred" texts, say like the Padma PurAna even Advaita is not actually VedAnta. Does this mean that this reflects the whole "Hindu" view of Advaita, a school which enjoys the greatest following amongst all such schools in BhArath? Take the Devi BhAratam for instance : According to it the Lord took the form of the Buddha to put a stop to the slaughter of animals in the name of Vedic sacrifices. It even accuses the brAhmanas of deliberately misinterpreting the shruti, to satisfy their gluttony! Does this justify your position? The influence of Buddhism on Advaita itself is well known. The founder AchArya repeatedly salutes the compassionate one in his MAndUkya KArikA. Or take Advaitins like Sri Harsha who openly acknowledges his indebtness to MAdhyamaka dialectic. Or Citsukha, a VedAntin, who comes to the rescue of the MAdhyamaka concept of Samvritti against KumArilla's attacks. Or KumArilla himself, the champion of Vedic orthodoxy and BrAhminism, asserting that Buddhist texts should be considered as authoritative. So do all this justify your position that "Hinduism" only had negative value for the Buddha? Every cult/religious belief in India has it own sectarian prejudices and so will interpret/misinterpret texts/spiritual teachers according to their beliefs. Just because of one or two such views we cannot immediately generalize it as relevant to the entire set of cults in BhArath. As I said it is best to give up the notion of "Hindu" which represents all the cults and religious practices of BhArath. Forget all these texts which are anyway read by a small minority of the entire Hindu population : in my house, a traditional smartha brahmin house, whatever ShankarAchArya might say still the Buddha has always been looked up to as a symbol of purity, compassion and holiness. This, I would guess, is the general "Hindu" view of the Buddha. S Hodge writes : >As far as I can see, you have inverted the original point. If Hindus >want to group themselves with Buddhists, that is fine by me although >there would perhaps arise some problems in those areas where Buddhism >differs (as you are well aware in view of your other msg today) from >Hindu beliefs. Like what? If the differences in philosophy is what you're talking about I don't think you've understood the point I was trying to make. >But don't be surprised if some Buddhists -- Asian or Western are not >entirely happy about being grouped by Hindus with Hindus -- with no >disrespect intended towards Hinduism. As far as I can see, Ven Tantra, an Asian Buddhist has no problem. Quite a few of the SinhAla Buddhist monks that I've met can't stop singing praises about India's contribution to culture and religion and also claim to be historically from India. And from what I read many Asians dream about being born in India during the time of the future Buddha. So I doubt if there's a problem on the Asian side. Ok, you say there's no disrespect intended. So if you are a Buddhist, what makes you so reluctant to identify with the people of the land of your religion's origin? >I was talking >to one Hindu recently who thought that Buddhism is a montheistic >religion in which each individual has a personal soul -- which doesn't >sound like any Buddhism I have encountered. I won't bring up the Vastiputriya school. Anyway ignorance of metaphysical tenets, is hardly an indicator of animosity or lack of affiliation towards the religion. For that matter of the whole smartha population only a small percentage are knowlegable about the metaphysical aspects of Advaita - that doesn't mean that they don't belong to the tradition. >Yes, and you are being a little disengenuous about the purpose of this >avataaram as another subscriber has pointed out -- or perhaps his >comment does not count since he is an outsider Westerner. I hope that I've clarified this point in my reply to Prof. Vassilkov. And I've already clarified that I didn't mean "outsider" that way. And let me also make it clear that I'm not arguing for the sake of argument. If that's your intention, let me know and I'll desist from further posts on the subject. My aim is to primarily refute the common opinion that Hinduism is antognistic/alien to Buddhism. I've my own reasons for this stand and am willing to discuss it with anybody who's interested in having a sincere discussion. >Because all living Buddhists are "second-generation" (even if Asian) does >that somehow reduce the value of their transmission of the Dharma? Maybe not, but still the original cultural baggage would be lacking. I've to remind you that our discussion is not about the quality of teaching imparted by Asian monks, but rather the "ties" to India which would have been an integral part of the original proslytization by Indian monks. >Out of interest, what status do you ascribe to Buddhist monks in Srilanka? >Are they "Indian" by your definition ? Would they be an acceptable >substitute for the now extinct monks from the mainland ? That Sri Lanka didn't get it from the Buddha himself and the religion was spread in the land by an official mission by Ashoka some two hundred years later makes some difference. Also if you take the philosophical development of Buddhist thought, Lanka has hardly made a significant contribution - almost the entire chunk of Buddhist philosophy was developed on the mainland. Why is this so? Maybe the lack of brahmins in Lanka? Also, the Buddha is the symbol of compassion - vegetarianism at the practical level - in India. A NyAya author from Bengal infacts rebukes South Indian brahmins for being too Buddhistic in embracing vegetarianism. Ashoka is remembered in India for having passed an order in favor of vegetarianism in his whole realm. But neither the lay Sinhalese nor the Buddhist monks themselves are vegetarian. So all this does make a difference. >I do not intend this to sound discourteous, but what is you actual >experience of Buddhist practitioners (NOT academics) in the West ? I've met quite a few MahAyAna and TheravAda practitioners in the US. Apart from those, who seemed more attracted for the novelty value - oriental clothes, food, figurines, incenses etc, the serious ones seemed to be those cerebrally inclined and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. What I'm trying to say is that the "devout" section, which would represent the great mass of Asian practitioners - is missing in the West. Infact I would think this section is what represents the majority of Christian practitioners in the West. This I guess is what comes of a "natural" religious acceptance, the way Christianity has been accepted in the West. See, why would anybody in the West give up Christianity and take up Buddhism? Christianity gives you everything Buddhism has to offer from the religious standpoint - compassion, morality, salvation, God etc Infact with Christianity you also have the exclusive clause which infact gives the follower a special status in contrast to non-believers. So why give it up and embrace Buddhism? If not for its philosophical value - the cerebral factor, I cannot see any other reason. In few cases the techniques in meditation and compassion too might be a factor : in a MahAyAna centre in San Francisco, an old American lady practitioner embraced me for being Hindu - because that translated as "vegetarian" to her. But apart from these I don't see religious piety as a factor - in which case Christianity needn't be given up in the first place. Atleast this is my perception as to why Buddhism in the West is different from the way it is practiced in Asia. Please correct me if I am wrong. >On the contrary, that is exactly why many (but obviously not all) >Westerners are attracted to Buddhism in the first place as these >virtues are equally well exemplified in their non-Indian Asian >teachers ! Your concept of the appeal of the "rational" aspects of >Buddhism to Westerners seems to be based on the pre-1939 opinions of >early Western Buddhists -- a bit out of date ? Maybe. >[Snip] I agree in general terms with your comments which followed but >I do feel you rather over-simplify the situation to suit your own >position. We can return to that another time. Or are you over complicating issues to suit your own views? Anyway your objection would be more valid if you could explain why it is so simplistic? >If the Shakya polity inhabitants were of Tibeto-Burman stock, their >proximity to the culturally and spiritually superior lands to their >immediate south would have resulted in a desire to emulate various aspects >of those lands -- without necessarily lessening any intrinsic differences. But neither the Tibeteans nor the Burmese are known to have adopted "Hindu" names in their normal civilian mode - not in the monastic sense. So "Gautam SiddhArtha" being a non-Hindu is unlikely. >I know many Chinese people who have adopted Western "first-names" but they >still view themselves as Chinese first and formost. Proslytization of Christianity has different dimensions than the same with Buddhism. As I explained before in Buddhism there was very little cultural teaching - the teaching was mainly of the dharma and the MahAyAnists infact seem to have gone out of their way to accomodate their teachings with local beliefs and practices. On the contrary the proslytization of Christianity was used as a tool of imperialism by the colonists - to eradicate local cultures and spread the Western forms. Maybe as pointed out before, it is something related to the nature of the religion - Buddhism as an impersonal religion and Christianity as a personality cult. >So you really agree with me -- one can be a Buddhist without being a >Hindu ! Ask any Chinese Buddhist if they think they are really >crypto-Hindus and I think you will get only one reply. If you think >they should be classed as Hindus that is up to you but is it not a >little presumptious for you to decide for them with first consulting >with them -- self-determination and all that stuff. I think we're losing focus. I'm only arguing that Indian Buddhism is Hindu. If Buddhists in other countries want to identify with Hindus, they can in the cultural and religious sense - like Ven Tantra. But if they like the Chinese want to view the term in its geographical dimension, that's not a problem too. The point I'm trying to make is that it is not inappropriate for Buddhists anywhere to identify themselves as Hindu. >Please supply references for this claim -- I thought we had all agreed >that the term "Hindu" was primarily a late arrival on the scene. Do >we have previously unnoticed early occurences of the term here ? A >pretty revolutionary discovery ! Please don't twist my words. Here when I used the word "Hindu" I only meant people who lived east to the Sindhu on the subcontinent. And Gautama was born in a kshatriya family on these people. For references you only have to see the overwhelming evidence in the Pali canon itself where Gautama takes pride in being "Arya" even in the racial sense on occasions. Also note the Buddhist effort in some texts to prove the superiority of kshatriyas over brahmins, because Gautama was a kshatriya. Also can you point to a single instance in any Buddhist work where Buddha is referred to as a "mleccha", which he would have been in a casteist environment, which it sure was during his time. Rather there are specific instances, where he is mocked at for being a "low born kshatriya". Also I think both the Tibeteans and the Sinhalese view the historical Buddha as a member of a royal Hindu kshatriya clan. >Please re-read your earlier statement to which I was replying. I >think my comparison is perfectly adequate. Then I didn't understand it. Please explain. >Buddha's in-depth knowledge of brahmanical **philosophical** >systems. >Which might those be ? ("Philosophical" highlighted by me) Perhaps >it is a matter of definition, but I see the Upanishads to be less >philosophical than spiritual. Only in comparison to the later sutra literature. In the times preceding it was was the only "philosophical" literature available. Anyway in his discussion on various schools, he does show a more than casual knowledge of systems like the SAmkhya, Yoga, JainA etc >But no matter -- he gained "an in-depth >knowledge" by studying them -- but that still does not make him a >"Hindu". Except that it wasn't so easy for a foreigner to learn such stuff in India, where brahmins were extremely protective about such knowledge. So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers if he wasn't a dvija. >The Buddha's rejection of virtually all the key Upanishadic teachings is >apparent from a cursory reading of any number of Pali suttas. When the study is cursory perhaps. But an intense study will prove otherwise. >But have you not contradicted yourself here ? Philosophy to me >implies reason but you said in your posting that this was not a >central feature of Buddhism: ""Buddhism's stress on reason >wouldn't have been as important as the above mentioned factors (= >ethics and love). This would have appealed only to the intellectual >minority"". I really get the feeling you want to have your cake and eat >it. And I get the feeling that all this is just argument for argument's sake without much factual substance. Anyway what's your level of knowledge on the subject - are you a professor or have you published something on the subject? And are you a follower of the TheravAda or the MahAyAna? And what's Lance Cousin's view on this subject? Is Gautama a "Hindu" kshatriya or not? Regarding Naga Ganesan's observation's on "Dravidian kinship", I would like to add that cross-cousin marraiges could have been abandoned by the "Aryan" folk over a period of time, just like eating meat was. Just because it is frowned upon at one point in time doesn't mean that it were never practiced earlier. Still as Vidhya pointed out it still might have been encouraged on certain situations: In Tamil Nadu, the VAthima brahmin community is well known for marrying strictly inside their own fold so as not to let their wealth out of their family circles. In my own family, I've heard of atleast one instance of cross cousin marraige. Another argument against Buddha being Dravidian/Tamil is the nature of his religion - it is the cerebrally inclined brahmanic way - the traditional jnaana or knowledge path of the Upanishads where self effort is of prime importance. In contrast the Dravidian religion all through its ancient history has consistently avoided this path - be it even Dravidian influenced brahmanic Vishitadvaita or the Saiva SiddhAnta, where ultimately only the Lord's grace will effect liberation. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 10 14:00:15 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 07:00:15 -0700 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062450.23782.13115039848216029889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > And a few months back some posters on this list even had the gall to > try peddle Tamil, which is neither spoken by the majority of the > population nor does it have great relation with any of the spoken > languages, as the national language! Indian constitution guarentees some 14 languages as National languages. This includes Tamil also, and the whole list appears on every rupee note. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Tue Oct 10 13:53:12 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 09:53:12 -0400 Subject: Indology in Russian In-Reply-To: <000001c02f88$16cc0120$bbc6e584@leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227062448.23782.13010478493541392446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Once more, I would like to thank all the members of the list who gave such generously long and detailed answers to my question about Indology in Russian. Warm regards, Pip From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 10 14:31:00 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 10:31:00 -0400 Subject: event announcement Message-ID: <161227062452.23782.9502230564924910551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded by request of the organizers to your mailing list or listserv. Please contact event organizers directly for any further information. Thanks. David Magier ============ Columbia's Southern Asian Institute along with The Society for International Law & Politics in International Affairs (SILPIA) Present: H. E. Ambassador Anwarul Karim Chowdhury, Permanent Representative of Bangladesh to the United Nations, on "Some Lessons in Poverty Eradication: The Experience of Bangladesh" Discussant: Dr. Sajeda Amin, The Population Council, NY WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 18, 2000 12:30 - 2:00 PM Room 1512 International Affairs Building Columbia University 420 West 118 Street New York, NY For more information, please call 212-854-3616 From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 10 11:55:08 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 11:55:08 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062444.23782.12246615940845607929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I think, it is long shot to claim that the arrival of ShankarAchArya or >Ramanuja catalyzed the re-conversion back to Hinduism. >It is more due to NayanmAr (especially Sambanthar, Appar and >Manickavasagar) and AlwAr (especially three muthal Alwars). >This re-conversion was at the end of KaLappirar rule and the start of >Pallava rule. History is more clear on that. I wouldn't be too sure about that. For this assumes that the whole of India or say southern India was conversant with Tamil. Though I wouldn't contest this in case of TN and Kerala, but upwards North, I'm sceptical. Apart from this, four points why I think Shankara and RAmAnuja would have played a major role in this reconversion than the Sangam poets : 1. They were brahmins and brahmanical effort in those days of yore had its own weight. 2. They wrote their main works on VedAnta in Sanskrit which has its countrywide appeal. 3. Though the Sangam poets were indeed the catalysts, it is my opinion that the bhakti movement gained momentum as a country wide movement only after the emergence of RAmAnuja - the brahmanic endorsement to the cult and also backed by a fully developed metaphysical structure - VisishtAdvaita. 4. Buddhism is principally a religion of reason and logic - hence they're hardly the bunch to be swayed by religious songs - you would need dialecticians of great ability to subdue them. Though the Sangam poets engage in dialectic, it is hardly the quality to counter the abstract dialectic of NAgArjuna, VAsubandhu, Dharmakirti et al. >Again, it is an un-supported accusation. Can you please define "linguistic >chauvnism"? Linguistic chauvanism in my understanding would be where the superiority of a language and its speakers is asserted over other languages and their speakers. And TN politics has seen a lot of that - the strategy seems to be, "belittle Hindi/Sanskrit, praise Tamil", "belittle North Indians/brahmins, praise Tamils". We have even had occasional glimpses of this attitude on this very list. I remember reading in school in my Tamil book that Tamil is older than Sanskrit! What's the evidence? Like most his mistakes, Nehru's imposition of Hindi was only on good intentions to forge unity amongst the people. OK, Tamil needn't take a subordinate place to Hindi which can neither compare in age or richness to Tamil and that fight is justified. But why direct the salvo at Sanskrit? And a few months back some posters on this list even had the gall to try peddle Tamil, which is neither spoken by the majority of the population nor does it have great relation with any of the spoken languages, as the national language! Such "unreasonable" demands only heightens concerns about linguistic chauvanism. >You said "let go of it and Brahmins themselves will fight for your cause". >If you are a Tamilian, who stopped you from fighting for that cause? Why >are you mixing politics and scholarly debate? When the "Dravidian" movement itself is a product of linguistic and caste politics, why try to isolate it and try to give it a scholarly hue? Well, the substance of an article by Bhagavan Das a couple of months back in the Indian Express against fundamentalism in TN sums up my case quite well. According to him brahmins are an "endangered species" in TN, due to the steady discrimination aimed at them for the last three decades. The reservation in the state is aimed only at brahmins and the linguistic minorities. If you are a non-brahmin Tamil, irrespective of whether you'd been classified as upper or lower caste by the TN government, you can still avail the benefits of reservation. How can this be so? Because, every Tamil caste from VellALar to Paraiyar has its own subdivisions of upper and lower caste. So even if a Gounder or Thevar actually belongs to the upper caste category, he can still get a certificate from the Thasildar office that he actually belongs to the lower caste part of his caste. That way, all non-brahmin Tamils enjoy the benefits of reservation. Actually this itself is only partially true because only a small section of the upper caste Tamil community enjoys the advantages and the poor still remain poor with no hope in sight - which only proves that the so called "Dravidian" movement is nothing but a power struggle whereby upper caste Tamils - VellALar, Thevar, Vanniar - used lower caste Tamils to wrest power from the brahmins. They used Tamil as a tool to create a mythical identity amongst non-brahmin Tamil speaking peoples against brahmins. But in reality the upper and the lower caste Tamil have very little in common and the former will never share wealth/power or treat equally a lower caste Tamil. This is the reason social equality is still a dream for certain sections of lower caste people in TN. OK, if the Tamil ire is at the brahmins for their "exploitation", why deprive the linguistic minorities of educational and employment opportunities too? Isn't this linguistic chauvnism? People who lived alongside the Tamils for milleneums and have contributed substantially to their beloved language, are suddenly viewed as "Aryans" and discriminated against. Living upto the ideals of Thiruvalluvar and MAnikkavAchagar, aren't we? The so called "Tamil" movement present even today in TamilNadu, is only a tool used by various political leaders to get to power. For we are all aware that Karunanidhi, Vaiko and Ramadoss educate their own children in the best English colleges money can buy. Brahmins ARE an endangered species in TN. In the apartment blocks where I grew up in Madras, which is predominently housed by brahmins, today in almost every house there are only aged parents and the youth are all gone - in the modern day the Tamil brahmin community has found a new home - the Silicon Valley of California. Give a few more years and I doubt if any Tamil brahmin under 20 will be found in TamilNadu. Inspite of all this, even as witnessed on the list, Tamil brahmins bear little ill will towards the Tamils or their language, which is their mother tongue too. That's the reason I said if Tamils stop being chauvnists, brahmins themselves will fight for their cause. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Tue Oct 10 11:07:43 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 12:07:43 +0100 Subject: Hinduism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062441.23782.2320299968553347373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda asks: >And what's Lance Cousin's view on this subject? Is Gautama a "Hindu" >kshatriya or not? Well, I am not sure why I suddenly appear here, but I had been wondering whether to comment anyway. Part of this issue is definitional, I think. If you define, 'Hinduism' as 'religion of Indian origin' then obviously 'Buddhism' is one kind of 'Hinduism'. If it has some more specific content, then Buddhism may well not be a part of 'Hinduism' in that particular sense. And at least some of the many kinds of religious activity normally included under the rubric of Hinduism will not be either. This will be true whether we define religion in terms of ideas, practices or social organization. Part of it is a kind of religious politics: most but not all Buddhists who have thought about the matter seem to object to the idea that Buddhism would be subordinated to Hinduism as a part, particularly if that is used as a way of saying that Buddhism really teaches, say, Advaita Vedaanta. For that matter, many (or most?) Jains, Sikhs, etc. have a similar objection. Hindus on the other hand are resistant to anything they would see as an attempt to divide them or separate them from their historical roots. Equally, however, it is obvious that in so far as there is an entity known as 'Hinduism' as against 'Islam', then Buddhism, Jainism and probably Sikhism are much closer in most respects to Hinduism. That is almost certainly even more the case if we look at ancient forms of Hinduism, including many now extinct branches. Academically it seems to me that this is essentially a question of levels of generalization (and all non-tautological generalizations are a question of percentages). So at a broad level of generalization there is a religion called Abrahamism, existing in varieties known as Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as well as in a few minor versions and exercising influence elsewhere. On the other hand there is a religion we can call Dharmism, existing as 'Hinduism' (or one could list Vaishnavism, etc.), Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Bon and exercising a great deal of influence on later Taoism, Confucianism and Shinto. In this sense we can say there are basically two world religions (and many local religious traditions too). At a narrower level we can speak of religions as they are self-identified and regardless of the historical origin of such identification. Or, we could say that the real equivalent to a religion such as Judaism would be Shaivism or Eastern Buddhism. Still more narrowly we could only speak of, say, Burmese Buddhism and so on. If we define things sufficiently narrowly, then we can say that all such entities are artificial constructs. None of these is 'correct'; they are simply useful heuristic devices. Looking at the issue historically, I do not believe it is meaningful to artificially separate Hinduism and Buddhism as entities in South Asia before the early centuries A.D. (or even later). There were certainly followers of the Buddha, the Jina, Vishnu, etc. etc. There was no conscious awareness of an entity called Hinduism; that is only possible when you have something to set against it. There certainly were numerous more-or-less related Indic religious traditions. Individuals probably varied greatly in how they related to that situation. But I don't believe that becoming a Buddhist, etc. meant that you rejected some general religious tradition we could call Hinduism or Brahmanism. Rather you adopted certain practices and rejected others. But Nanda is asking specifically about the history of the Buddha himself. This comes down to the issue of the Sakkas/"Saakyas. It is important to note that a number of individuals other than the Buddha are specifically named as Sakkas in the Pali suttas. This seems to be on a par with referring to someone as a Licchavi, etc. So there can hardly be any doubt that at an early date in the history of Buddhist literature the Sakkas were recognized as a distinct group of status, almost certainly of k.satriya status. This fits the pattern of organized clans in particular localities which is confirmed e.g. from accounts of Alexander's invasion and later also from coinage issued in particular areas. This kind of organization is only slowly replaced by a more standard form of kingship at a local level. So I would be confident that the Buddha was considered a k.satriya from an early date. It is impossible to be certain as to what the ethnic origin of the Sakkas would have originally been. As an aristocratic ruling group they did not necessarily originate from the area they ruled. In any case the boundary between linguistically Tibeto-Burman and Indo-European languages is not likely to have been static over the last two thousand plus years. Nor any supposed ethnic/racial boundary. But without any definite evidence to the contrary we should perhaps assume that there was no conspicuous difference in appearance or culture between the Buddha and the ruling class in Kosala or Maagadha. I don't take the argument from cross-cousin marriage seriously, by the way. That is because I assume that there would at this time have been more variation in North Indian customs than at a later date. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Oct 10 20:07:36 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 13:07:36 -0700 Subject: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: "heresy"discussion) Message-ID: <161227062462.23782.10626245632483482544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben wrote: > how did "hairesis" -- originally a rather neutral concept -- get its > heavy > connotations of terror and reprobation? Steven Hodge responded: > It first gained its negative overtones in the hands of the early > Church Fathers around the 2nd - 3rd century CE when they were > attacking rival brands of Christianity. I just returned from a conference and saw all these posts from last week on heresy issues -- including several on cross-cultural questions. The most comprehensive cross-cultural study on heresiography is the recent monograph by a collaborator of mine, the sinologist John B. Henderson. John's book discusses about everything *except* Indian traditions, on which he felt not enough research had yet been done to say much. His bibliographical references to heresy issues in Europe, the Middle East, and China are extensive; on the evolution of concepts of heresy, see the index on pp. 257-8. The book: John B. Henderson, _The Construction of Orthodoxy and Heresy: Neo-Confucian, Islamic, Jewish, and Early Christian Patterns_ (Albany, N.Y.: State University of New York Press), 1998. Steve Farmer From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Tue Oct 10 15:22:57 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 16:22:57 +0100 Subject: e: Language Buddha Spoke While Preaching Message-ID: <161227062454.23782.16022320876766164138.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I enquired about the above mentioned subject from an expert on buddhism, and his response in mentioned below: Thanks Anand M. Sharan ---------------------------------------------- Namaste Anand, Let's divide the language issue into two questions; 1. What language did Sakyamuni speak? He is said to have instructed his disciples to teach in the language of the local people. Presummably he did the same himself, as far as possible. Perhaps then, as now, some many people could speak several dialects that this was not a big issue. 2. What language lies behind Pali? First, the word pali means a "line" of text, so it doesn't help to identify the underlying language. Second, the Theravada commentators suggest that the languag of their texts, that is, what the Pali, is Magadhi. However, moderns linguists doubt that it is. They find many features of the old Pali grammar that do not fit with what they know of the dialects of old Magadha. Many have suggested that the Pali preserves a dialect from Western India. We have evidence that Theravada monasteries existed in many regions of India, so it is hard to work backwards from that. The bottom line, to final solution to the question remains up for discussion. Roy From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 10 16:31:46 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 16:31:46 +0000 Subject: kEkaya, zAkya (Buddha's clan), Ehu Saantamula, and tamil cEku/eHku Message-ID: <161227062456.23782.986156742674299401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Buddha's native regions were inhabited by the peoples when they moved out of the Indus region once the Sarasvati river became dry. In the east India, the language shift to IA was being effected thru' the means of religion and, folks were becoming acculturated Aryans. Even now, we can get a glimpse of Dravidian in their place/river names, clan titles, kinship from ancient MBh. and Buddhist sources etc. The ancient megalopolis, pATaliputra has a neat drav. etymology: pATali is the pAtiri flowers plant and putra and tamil "putar/putal" (=bush/thicket/low jungle) are cognates. Next consider the sONe river near Patna. MW dictionary gives zONa = "the river S3ona or Sone (also %{A} , f. ; it rises in Gondwana in the district of Nagpore , on the table-land of Amara-kan2t2aka , four or five miles east of the source of the Narmada1 [Nerbudda] , and running first northerly and then easterly for 500 miles falls into the Ganges above Pa1t2ali-putra or Patna." zaNIra = a bank or alluvial island in the middle of the river S3on2a1 L. ; Gonds are dravidians and, in Tamil, "kONi, kaNam, caNal" etc., refer to the vedic zaNa. The river, zONa is called cONai in old Tamil texts. The river name zONa and the related zaNIra seem to derive from zaNa(tamil kaNam)= 'hemp'. The river Narmada originates near zoNa. Narmada's old name is Nerbudda and, this seems to be cognate with tam. "nel-putai"(Paddy fields,marshes). Narmada is called sOmasutaa = daughter of the moon. Paddy which has an yellow color could have been compared with the moon, and it had reached Sindh in the Indus culture in a very early age. Probably from the East where the source of Narmada is located. Prof. Witzel has written about the Northwestern peculiarity of strange interchange between k and z which is limited to non-IA words such as karkoTa/zarkoTa. I earlier wrote: <<>> "zaikya" mentioned in the MBh. commentaries can be explained through Dravidian. Consider the tamil word, "cEku" meaning solidity or hardness. (See Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon). Word-initial k-/c- are common. tamil kai = telugu cey = hand; kEraLa & CEra kings etc., Drav. *kEku (related to cEku, attested in tamil) could change to "zeku" in Sanskrit. This Drav. *kEku/cEku > Skt. *zeku, and then "zaikya" refering to steel is connected with "eHku" of the sangam texts and "ehu" mentioned in the Satavahana inscription of the 2nd century. Kekayas are ethnically non-Aryan. "Rama's stepmother Kaikeyi is the Kekaya princess. The Kekayas have been listed even by the Jainas among non-Aryan peoples." (p.118, M. Deshpande, Sociolinguistic attitudes in India: An historical reconstruction). Among the six Aryan clans listed in the PaNNavaNAsutta, Buddha's zAkya clan is listed as IkkhAga (p.50). It is common for losing initial k, and thus kEkaya and IkkAga (>ikSvAku) appear related. zAkya seems to be an early sanskritization from kEkaya. With k- > z-, and ke- > za-/zA-. (Cf. nerbudda > narmadaa in the same area). Just as in the epic marriages, the zAkya tribe also practiced the cross-cousin marriages and, this reinforces my hypothesis that zAkya had an ethnic Dravidian stock, but spoke an IA dialect in Buddha's times. To sum up, the North Indian clans like Kekaya and ZAkya seem to be cognate with Dravidian words cEku/eHku etc., meaning strong, robust, steel-like etc., Note that the southern SatakarNi kings had a title "Ehu", and Buddhist sources connect zAkya with Ikkhaaga which was sanskritized as ikSvAku. Comments are welcome. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 10 19:14:15 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 20:14:15 +0100 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062458.23782.16479936198227306752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:28:17 GMT, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >3. Scientifically speaking, cross-cousin marriages (and also a woman >marrying her maternal uncle) are simply not a good idea, especially when the >pattern is repeated for a few generations. The whole point of sexual >reproduction is to increase genetic diversity. Marrying among close >relatives goes against this evolutionary trend. That something was >culturally followed by some groups of people at some point of time does not >mean that the custom should never undergo change. > >Vidyasankar I've heard this many times but is there is any published data on this ? More links on cross cousin marrieges, http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/marriage/xcuz.html http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/LOCAL-ONLY/kinship/parallel.html http://borealis.lib.uconn.edu/archnet/topical/educat/anth220/cousins.htm Yanamano of South America and a Namibian tribe (i do not recall the name) are also known for cross cousin marrieges. Raveen From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 10 19:32:06 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 20:32:06 +0100 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062460.23782.10780287479651589725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:55:08 GMT, nanda chandran wrote: >Apart from this, four points why I think Shankara and RAmAnuja would have >played a major role in this reconversion than the Sangam poets : NayanMar and Alwar are definitely post Sangam. >1. They were brahmins and brahmanical effort in those days of yore had > its own weight. Some NayanMar and Alwar were also Brahmins. Sampanthar and Sundarar are prominent Brahmin NayanMars. Raveen From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 10 20:54:11 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 20:54:11 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062465.23782.8043560901297310317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I've heard this many times but is there is any published data on this ? >More links on cross cousin marrieges, Published data about what? That repeated generations of cross-cousin marriages reduces genetic diversity? Or that the pattern of cross-cousin marriage undergoes change over time? The former is a simple matter of calculating numbers, based on what is well known about genetics and statistics. The latter stands to reason. People migrate; they lose large numbers in wars and famines; they deliberately or otherwise adopt practices of other politically powerful groups - all of which leads to cultural changes that may or may not be well documented. Still, if there has been any study of these things, I'd like references too. Vidyasankar ps. In Naga Ganesan's recent post, the word "ethnic" appears, to talk of Aryan vs. Dravidian. In order to keep the discourse on track, may I point out that "ethnic" is simply another word that attempts to bring race in, through the back door? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From pfreund at MUM.EDU Wed Oct 11 01:57:27 2000 From: pfreund at MUM.EDU (Peter Freund) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 20:57:27 -0500 Subject: Coronation of a king Message-ID: <161227062478.23782.18190251351399216615.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there a ceremony or an oath for the coronation of a king, or description of yagyas described in the Smritis, Itihasa, Arthashastras or other Vedic and classical Sanskrit texts? Thank you for your help. Peter Freund From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 01:12:58 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 21:12:58 -0400 Subject: Panchanga calculations in the Agni Purana Message-ID: <161227062473.23782.15429366957771476391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Chapter 122 of the Agni Purana (pages 364 thru 369 of vol. 28 of the Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology series, Agni Purana part II)describes a numeric algorithm for deriving the elements of a Panchanga (tithi, nakshatra, karana, yoga etc.) can any of the list members tell me if this agrees with any of the siddhantas or karanas? Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 10 22:25:02 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 22:25:02 +0000 Subject: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062471.23782.13350219477902251693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Aryan vs. Dravidian. In order to keep the discourse on track, may I >point > > out that "ethnic" is simply another word that attempts to bring race in, > > through the back door? > >Not necessarily. Greek ethnos means "people", and interestingly, "race" >originally could mean "people" or "nation", even "family" as well as Maybe so, but let us leave it for Naga Ganesan to clarify what he means. It is my contention that people are not necessarily aware of the original etymologies of the words they use today, as seen in the recent posts about heresy and Greek heresias. Whatever a word may have originally meant in Greek or Latin, it comes loaded with more modern meaning when used in English. I just wanted to point out that the category of Dravidian language speakers is not equivalent to "ethnic Dravidian stock", whatever that may mean. It remains to be proved that the people who moved east after the Sarasvati dried up were either. Needless to say, the same goes for Indo-Aryan language speakers and "Indo-Aryan ethnic stock" too. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Oct 10 22:08:17 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 23:08:17 +0100 Subject: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062469.23782.6128326324746696720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Martin Fosse" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:25 PM Subject: SV: Kinship systems > Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 10. oktober > 2000 22:54: > > ps. In Naga Ganesan's recent post, the word "ethnic" appears, to talk of > > Aryan vs. Dravidian. In order to keep the discourse on track, may I point > > out that "ethnic" is simply another word that attempts to bring race in, > > through the back door? > > Not necessarily. Greek ethnos means "people", and interestingly, "race" > originally could mean "people" or "nation", even "family" as well as > "race". Both in English and German, by the way. Today, "race" seems to have > become specialized to mean "biological" race, whereas "ethnic" may refer to > groups of different cultures or nationalities that may, however, belong to > the same "biological race". Compare the recent war in Yugoslavia, where > three ethnic groups that all belong to the same "race" and speak almost > identical languages have been busy making war on each other. > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no This distinction between race and ethnos is fine. But to call Gonds dravidian in an ethnic sene is also a stretch. After all Gonds themselves call themselves Gonds and the word 'dravidian' is unknown to them. Hence ethnicity of Gonds is just Gond and not dravidian. It is not for non-Gonds to put different labels on them From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Oct 10 21:25:07 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 00 23:25:07 +0200 Subject: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062467.23782.18286130235738084535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 10. oktober 2000 22:54: > ps. In Naga Ganesan's recent post, the word "ethnic" appears, to talk of > Aryan vs. Dravidian. In order to keep the discourse on track, may I point > out that "ethnic" is simply another word that attempts to bring race in, > through the back door? Not necessarily. Greek ethnos means "people", and interestingly, "race" originally could mean "people" or "nation", even "family" as well as "race". Both in English and German, by the way. Today, "race" seems to have become specialized to mean "biological" race, whereas "ethnic" may refer to groups of different cultures or nationalities that may, however, belong to the same "biological race". Compare the recent war in Yugoslavia, where three ethnic groups that all belong to the same "race" and speak almost identical languages have been busy making war on each other. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Oct 11 01:45:10 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 02:45:10 +0100 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062476.23782.6929311656776457695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Nanda Chandram By and large, this discussion does not seem to be getting us very far and does not seem to be very academic in content now so I hesitate to continue. I have made my views quite clear but I am also constantly being accused of views which I do not hold nor advocate. Moreover, your postings have gradually become more and more "ad hominem" so there are a just few points I would like to address and then leave. So .... Nanda Chandran wrote: > >although there would perhaps arise some problems in those areas where >> Buddhism differs (as you are well aware in view of your other msg today) from > >Hindu beliefs. > > Like what? If the differences in philosophy is what you're talking about > I don't think you've understood the point I was trying to make. This discussion is becoming somewhat circular -- I think I quite well understand the point you are making but I just happen not to agree with you. > Quite a few of the SinhAla Buddhist monks that I've met can't stop singing praises > about India's contribution to culture and religion and also claim to be > historically from India. If that is now your position I am more than happy to concur with you. But for a Buddhist to acknowledge India's undoubted and obvious contribution to culture and religion is not the same as accepting your revised religious classificatory system. If you would be a bit more specific in your definition of Hinduism, we might make some progress but rather conveniently you wrote earlier that Hinduism defies definition. > Ok, you say there's no disrespect intended. So if you are a Buddhist, > what makes you so reluctant to identify with the people of the land of > your religion's origin? Ah, here we go again ! How do you arrive at that conclusion ? I am quite happy to "identify" with the people of India -- why shouldn't I ? I merely repeat the point that I personally (like other many Buddhists I have met) see myself as a Buddhist and not as a Hindu -- not at least in the general modern sense of the word. > My aim is to primarily refute the common opinion that Hinduism is > antognistic/alien to Buddhism. That is not how I have been reading your postings -- with friends like you, who needs enemies, as they say ! Hinduism may or may not be "antagonistic/alien" to Buddhism, there may be much common ground between them, they may share a common background, may have been developed by people living in ancient / medieval India, some Indian Buddhists may have been brahmins by birth, some Buddhists like Ven. Tantra may be happy to call himself a Hindu (that's up to him) -- but all that does not mean that you have any right to define the religious affiliations of others to suit your own agendas. Raimundo Pannikar (a Christian writer) believes that Hinduism is a covert "precursor" of Christianity and thus can be subsumed into Christianity. Obviously he says this on somewhat different grounds, but if one were to say that Hindus are really Christians but just don't want to admit it, I imagine that you perhaps not be entirely happy about this. > I've to remind you that our discussion is ... about the "ties" to > India which would have been an integral part of the original > proslytization by Indian monks. No, it is not. Your initial premise was that Buddhists are really Hindus. As I keep repeating, if you mean "Hindu" in the obselete sense of an inhabitant of India, then that is a truism. If you mean the religious phenomenon that is currently labelled "Hinduism", I beg to differ -- except in the common-sense manner in which Lance Cousins desribes. > I've met quite a few MahAyAna and TheravAda practitioners in the US. > Apart from those, who seemed more attracted for the novelty value > - oriental clothes, food, figurines, incenses etc, the serious ones > seemed to be those cerebrally inclined and I don't think there's anything > wrong with it. Well, that's Americans for you :) I only know about European Buddhists. > What I'm trying to say is that the "devout" section, which > would represent the great mass of Asian practitioners - is missing > in the West. Can't agree with you. My experience of first, second and now some third generation Western Buddhists indicates that they are quite "devout" -- perhaps they are just a bit more reserved about showing it. > See, why would anybody in the West give up Christianity and take up > Buddhism? Christianity gives you everything Buddhism has to offer > from the religious standpoint - compassion, morality, salvation, God etc. Well, so does every other religion that I know of -- except of course, Buddhists reject the personal creator God concept or are you imposing this on us as well ?? Many people say to me that their attraction to Buddhism lies in its non-authoritarian approach, the structured spiritual path absent from popular Christianity, the possibility of liberation through personal effort etc etc. > At least this is my perception as to why Buddhism in the West is > different from the way it is practiced in Asia. Please correct me if I > am wrong. OK. You're wrong. > But neither the Tibeteans nor the Burmese are known to have adopted > "Hindu" names in their normal civilian mode - not in the monastic > sense. So "Gautam SiddhArtha" being a non-Hindu is unlikely. I was not talking about Tibetans or Burmese per se -- I should have thought that was pretty obvious. > >I know many Chinese people who have adopted Western "first-names" > Proslytization of Christianity has different dimensions than the > same with Buddhism. I did not say "Christian" names. Many Chinese in Hong Kong and elsewhere adopt Western first names for social / cultural reasons. > As I explained before in Buddhism there was very little > cultural teaching. Again you contradict yourself -- in earlier messages you were especially emphasizing the Indic cultural baggage that went with Buddhism. > The point I'm trying to make is that it is not inappropriate for > Buddhists anywhere to identify themselves as Hindu. That's up to them to decide, not you. I have also met people who define themselves as Jewish Buddhists, Eastern Orthodox Buddhism, Catholic Buddhism, Sufi Buddhist and so forth. That's THEIR choice ! > For references you only have to see the overwhelming evidence in the > Pali canon itself where Gautama takes pride in being "Arya" even in > the racial sense on occasions. Where ? > Also note the Buddhist effort in some texts to prove the superiority of > kshatriyas over brahmins, because Gautama was a kshatriya. Which ones ? > Only in comparison to the later sutra literature. In the times > preceding it was was the only "philosophical" literature available. > Anyway in his discussion on various schools, he does show a > more than casual knowledge of systems like the SAmkhya, Yoga, JainA etc Granted. But that still does not make him a "Hindu" -- why not say he is a Jain ? But I forget -- Jains are also Hindus, aren't they ! > So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers > if he wasn't a dvija. Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? > When the study is cursory perhaps. But an intense study will prove > otherwise. Sorry, I should have said "even a cursory study". > And I get the feeling that all this is just argument for argument's > sake without much factual substance. Ditto ! > Anyway what's your level of knowledge on the subject - are you a > professor or have you published something on the subject? > And are you a follower of the TheravAda or the MahAyAna? Ah ! Now you want my CV ! Are you going to offer me a job ? I think this request is quite pathetic but to satisfy your curiosity: I became a Buddhist over 35 years ago. I have studied with numerous Thai, Srilankan, Chinese, Tibetan and Japanese masters. I was a monk in Japan for several years -- I lived there for 10 years -- translated from Japanese, I am a "dharma-aacaarya" in their terms. I have completed PhD studies on early Tantric Buddhism. I have probably read more Buddhist texts than you ever will -- simply because I also read (and speak fluently in some cases) Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian, Sanskrit and I have a bit of Pali apart from the usual European languages. I have written over 12 books on Buddhism and other subjects that interest me -- look up Amazon.com for some of them if you want. I quietly engage in textual research, critical editions and translations of Buddhist texts -- sadly not too many published yet but that's a problem of commercial publishing. I have taught classes in Buddhism and Tibetan at the University of London for a number of years and have advised MA / PhD students. I have also taught at several major UK Buddhist centres. I was President of the European Buddhist Union for several years. I have participated in the British Interfaith Dialogue Council. As for my non-academic Buddhist affiliations, I dislike labels as you might have noticed but my primary "allegiance" is Mahayana / Vajrayana -- I told you this before but obviously you missed it. Does that satisfy you ?? So what is your esteemed level of knowledge on the subject ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge Dept of Religious Studies, Birkbeck College, University of London From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 04:42:56 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 04:42:56 +0000 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062480.23782.16916278006286806047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Stephen, Yes, I think we're going around in circles. Probably we've agreed to disagree :-) Anyway I too wish to make a few points after which if you wish we can abandon the subject. >This discussion is becoming somewhat circular -- I think I quite well >understand the point you are making but I just happen not to agree >with you. If this is regarding the significance of the anatta doctrine - which in my opinion is only a negative approach of the Atman doctrine of the Upanishads, then we can open a fresh thread on this and discuss it out. >But for a Buddhist to acknowledge India's undoubted and obvious >contribution to culture and religion is not the same as accepting your >revised religious classificatory system. If you would be a bit more >specific in your definition of Hinduism, we might make some progress >but rather conveniently you wrote earlier that Hinduism defies >definition. My point is not to revise the classification just for the sake of revision. It is just that the label "Hinduism" which bunches together various religious sects of India and excludes certain other sects is inherently flawed. If we sort this out, much of the confusion would disappear. >Ah, here we go again ! How do you arrive at that conclusion ? I am >quite happy to "identify" with the people of India -- why shouldn't >I ? I merely repeat the point that I personally (like other many >Buddhists I have met) see myself as a Buddhist and not as a Hindu -- >not at least in the general modern sense of the word. Not a problem at all as I've already expressed. Just that we need to review the label "Hinduism". >but >all that does not mean that you have any right to define the religious >affiliations of others to suit your own agendas. I've no agenda except to clear up distortions. >Raimundo Pannikar (a >Christian writer) believes that Hinduism is a covert "precursor" of >Christianity and thus can be subsumed into Christianity. Obviously he >says this on somewhat different grounds, but if one were to say that >Hindus are really Christians but just don't want to admit it, I >imagine that you perhaps not be entirely happy about this. If he can prove it based on reason and factual evidence, I'll be more than happy to accept it. >No, it is not. Your initial premise was that Buddhists are really >Hindus. As I keep repeating, if you mean "Hindu" in the obselete >sense of an inhabitant of India, then that is a truism. If you mean >the religious phenomenon that is currently labelled "Hinduism", I beg >to differ -- except in the common-sense manner in which Lance Cousins >desribes. Except that I question the labels "Hinduism" and "Hindus" itself. >Well, that's Americans for you :) I only know about European >Buddhists. Yup, you've a point there. >Can't agree with you. My experience of first, second and now some >third generation Western Buddhists indicates that they are quite >"devout" -- perhaps they are just a bit more reserved about showing >it. Thanks for the insider information. >Many people say to me that their attraction to Buddhism lies in its >non-authoritarian approach, the structured spiritual path absent from >popular Christianity, the possibility of liberation through personal effort >etc etc. "Non-authoritarian", "structured path" etc implies the cerebral bent, doesn't it? >OK. You're wrong. I'll take this with a pinch of salt. >Again you contradict yourself -- in earlier messages you were >especially emphasizing the Indic cultural baggage that went with >Buddhism. Only to show that Asian Buddhists would thus have a tie to India, which Westerners wouldn't. >The point I'm trying to make is that it is not inappropriate for >Buddhists anywhere to identify themselves as Hindu. >That's up to them to decide, not you. I have also met people who >define themselves as Jewish Buddhists, Eastern Orthodox Buddhism, >Catholic Buddhism, Sufi Buddhist and so forth. That's THEIR choice ! I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that all Buddhist everywhere SHOULD identify themselves as Hindus. Only that it would not be INAPPROPRIATE if they should WISH to identify themselves so (like Ven Tantra whose view you didn't accept) for the original Buddhists were themselves so. >For references you only have to see the overwhelming evidence in the >Pali canon itself where Gautama takes pride in being "Arya" even in >the racial sense on occasions. >Where ? I do not have books at me with present. But isn't there a famous instance where a brAhmana rebukes Gautama for being a low born Kshatriya. And in reply Gautama rebukes him for not knowing the truth about his own origins - according to the Compassionate One the brahmana was born of a wedlock between a brahmana and a low caste servant maid. In contrast Gautama extols his own family line saying that at one point in time when his branch of the family was in exile and didn't have any SAkhyas around, his ancestors rather than taking mates from other races, committed incest to preserve the purity of their race! And Gautama says this with obvious pride! If you want I can get the reference as to the NikhAya in which this incident is related. >Also note the Buddhist effort in some texts to prove the superiority >of kshatriyas over brahmins, because Gautama was a kshatriya. >Which ones ? Well, you don't seem to be too familiar with the PAli canon. Give me some time and I'll get you the references. Or perhaps Lance Cousins or others familiar with the PAli canon can lend a hand? >Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. >You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya >earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? Pardoned. Dvijas are those who are twice born i.e, eligible to study the Vedas - all the top three castes were eligible - brAhmana, kshatriya and Vaishya. See the number of kshatriya teachers in the Upanishads. So Gautama was a dvija too and the reason he has the gotram name "Gautama". >Sorry, I should have said "even a cursory study". If you want to go into a detailed analysis of the relationship between the Buddhist anatta and the Upanishadic Atman doctrine, let me know. Maybe we should start a seperate Indian Philosophy discussion list. Any takers? >Ah ! Now you want my CV ! Are you going to offer me a job ? I think >this request is quite pathetic but to satisfy your curiosity: >I became a Buddhist over 35 years ago. >I have studied with numerous Thai, Srilankan, Chinese, Tibetan and >Japanese masters. >I was a monk in Japan for several years -- I lived there for 10 >years -- translated from Japanese, I am a "dharma-aacaarya" in their >terms. >I have completed PhD studies on early Tantric Buddhism. >I have probably read more Buddhist texts than you ever will -- simply >because I also read (and speak fluently in some cases) Tibetan, >Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian, Sanskrit and I have a bit of Pali apart >from the usual European languages. >I have written over 12 books on Buddhism and other subjects that >interest me -- look up Amazon.com for some of them if you want. >I quietly engage in textual research, critical editions and >translations of Buddhist texts -- sadly not too many published yet but >that's a problem of commercial publishing. >I have taught classes in Buddhism and Tibetan at the University of >London for a number of years and have advised MA / PhD students. >I have also taught at several major UK Buddhist centres. >I was President of the European Buddhist Union for several years. >I have participated in the British Interfaith Dialogue Council. >As for my non-academic Buddhist affiliations, I dislike labels as you >might have noticed but my primary "allegiance" is Mahayana / >Vajrayana -- I told you this before but obviously you missed it. >Does that satisfy you ?? So what is your esteemed level of knowledge >on the subject ? It is my honour to have exchanged views with such a qualified person. As for me, I'm just a student of Indian Philosophy for the last four years - no academic qualifications though and little interested in it, for my interest is more spiritual than technical. But then the test of knowledge - "As the wise test gold by cutting and rubbing ..." - should be based on reason and textual knowledge, no? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 06:43:45 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 06:43:45 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062484.23782.567467866058810051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Madhuresan writes : >The decline of Buddhism and Jainism is largely due to the >"emotional" Bhakti movement of Shaivism/Vaishnavism. Are we to take it as the truth just because you assert so? This assertion is also common leftist propoganda to overvalue the contribution of the bhakti saints and undermine the brahmanic effort. Fosse et al, don't think I'm exaggerating. In an article in the Indian Express a few months back, Mushirul Hassan - a well known leftist columnist, when referring to the "intellectual" heritage of India refers to : the Sufi saints, the Buddha, the bhakti saints, Kabir and Nanak! Apparently for him the four thousand years of "brahmanic"/JainA effort at philosophy was either non-existant or not "intellectual" or considered alien because it was "Aryan"! >In Karnataka and Andhra regions, Veerashaivism poets/saints >repeatedly cite the earlier saints further south, and >use their stories in their wars against heretics. The level of conflict (in the intellectual sense) between Buddhism and Brahmanism as revealed by Sanskrit texts can hardly be compared with that of Buddhism and other non-brahmanic cults. Or maybe there were two levels to the conflict - one amongst the intelligensia (bauddha and brahmin philosophers) and one amongst the lay worshippers (bauddha and Saivite worshippers). But it has to be remembered that it is the former - the intelligensia - as in any movement, who were the core of Buddhism. Even if their following declined due to the "attraction" of the bhakti movement amongst the lay fold, they could still have regrouped and regained their strength. Or adapted "bhakti" to suit Buddhism - which itself is not very strange since NAgArjuna himself seems to be the pioneer of the "jnAna cum bhakti" movement in India. But such a thing didn't happen only shows that it was the ranks of the Buddhist intelligensia themselves which slowly depleted. It is here I disagree with some scholars who argue that it was KumArilla and the NaaiyAyikas who actually ousted Buddhism and not Shankara. Ritualism and pluralism (read as "eternal selfism" for the Bauddhas) would never have been accepted by the Bauddhas. Irrespective of the Astika criticism, which anyway doesn't render their own theories valid, the Bauddhas would have kept on fighting. It is only the emergence of Advaita, finely honed on the whetstone of reason, which implicitly accepts the finer points of Bauddha philosophy but still manages to retain its own individuality, which could have offered an effective alternative to Bauddha philosophers (check BhAvaviveka's approval of the GaudapAdiyakArikA and SAntarakshita's opinion of the "minor" faults of Advaita) and other brahmin bauddha aspirants. This way apart from reconversion of brahmins to the brahmanic fold (check MAdhava's Shankaradigvijaya where Shankara converts colonies of "Buddhist" brahmins to the Advaita fold), it would also have checked fresh brahmin blood into the Bauddha fold thus effectively sapping the intelligensia of the Bauddhas. >Indian constitution guarentees some 14 languages as National languages. >This includes Tamil also, and the whole list appears on every >rupee note. Sorry. By "national" I only meant the "link" language. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 11 13:52:23 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 06:52:23 -0700 Subject: Coronation of a king Message-ID: <161227062515.23782.9473525047865845388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gonda, Jan, 1966. Ancient Indian kingship from the religious point of view. Reprinted from 'Numen' III and IV [1965] with addenda and an index. Leiden: E. J. Brill. iv, 147 pp. 2nd impression 1969. --- Jonathan Silk wrote: > >Is there a ceremony or an oath for the coronation of a king, or > >description of yagyas described in the Smritis, Itihasa, Arthashastras > >or other Vedic and classical Sanskrit texts? > > > > Thank you for your help. > > > > Peter Freund > > I didn't notice a reply to this yet: > > Author: Heesterman, J. C. > > Title: The ancient Indian royal consecration: the R?ajas?uya > described according to the Yajus texts and annotated by > J.C. Heesterman. > Published: 's-Gravenhage, Mouton, 1957. > > > > Jonathan Silk > > jonathan.silk at yale.edu > > Dept. of Religious Studies > Yale University > 320 Temple St. > New Haven CT 06520-8287 > USA > > tel. 203-432-0828 > fax. 203-432-7844 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 11 14:07:24 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 07:07:24 -0700 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062518.23782.1071263929924919280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > This way apart from reconversion of brahmins to the brahmanic > fold (check MAdhava's Shankaradigvijaya where Shankara converts colonies > of "Buddhist" brahmins to the Advaita fold), it would also have checked > fresh brahmin blood into the Bauddha fold thus effectively sapping > the intelligensia of the Bauddhas. ??? Buddha himself is a not a brahmin! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 08:04:57 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 08:04:57 +0000 Subject: dvija Message-ID: <161227062486.23782.15411250761485286006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers > > if he wasn't a dvija. >Pardon my ignorance, but I though "dvija" meant one was a brahmin. >You were saying (probably correctly) that the Buddha was a k.satriya >earlier so when did this transmutation occur ? The word dvija simply means he who has a second birth, i.e. the yajnopavIta saMskAra. Theoretically, brAhmaNa, kshatriya and vaizya males were all dvijas, because of equal adhikAra to receive the thread and study the veda. The hair-splitting arguments over whether a ruling class of foreign origin could be called kshatriya or not were based upon whether or not its members could be granted this adhikAra. Of course, you can also find any number of Sanskrit poetic references where dvija means a bird, which is born twice, first as an egg and second when the egg hatches. This is a straightforward biological reference. There is a convenient online version of Monier Williams's Sanskrit-English dictionary, linked from the Indology website, which can easily clarify these things. In the dictionary, coriander and pepper seeds are also called dvija. I can't figure out the reason behind it. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Oct 11 12:48:27 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 08:48:27 -0400 Subject: soma/haoma: was Re: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: Message-ID: <161227062502.23782.4298380575446615420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben is certainly right to question any book that treats soma/haoma without taking into account the ephedra theory. Stephen Hodge is certainly right to remind us of the worthy book of Flattery and Schwartz which tackles the Iranian side of the problem. I look forward to the publication of the proceedings of last year's soma/haoma workshop in Leiden, at which Harry Falk and Victor Sarianidi, two advocates of the ephedra theory, gave reports. Along with the other reports, the proceedings of this workshop will tell us where we now stand on soma/haoma. In my view, the ephedra theory needs to be re-examined. Many questions remain unanswered, at least in my mind. Best wishes, George Thompson From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Oct 11 13:40:29 2000 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 09:40:29 -0400 Subject: Search for a senior Sanskritist at Columbia Message-ID: <161227062511.23782.7729878664348233980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Senior Scholar in Sanskrit The Department of Middle East and Asian Languages and Cultures at Columbia University seeks to appoint a senior professor in Sanskrit Language and Literature. Scholars pursuing all disciplinary approaches are invited to apply. Applicants should be internationally acknowledged leaders in the discipline and be able to demonstrate a distinguished career in research and teaching. They should be prepared to teach at all levels of undergraduate and graduate instruction and will be expected to take an active role in the department and its involvement with other programs. Applications will be reviewed starting January 1, 2001, with the intent of filling the position July 1, 2001 or soon thereafter. Send a letter of application and curriculum vitae to: Chair, Sanskrit Search Department of MEALAC 602 Kent Hall, MC 3928 Columbia Univ. New York, NY 10027 Women and minorities are especially encouraged to apply. Columbia University is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 11 13:41:44 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 09:41:44 -0400 Subject: Coronation of a king In-Reply-To: <39E3C907.A3B996@mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227062508.23782.17470782116018571377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there a ceremony or an oath for the coronation of a king, or >description of yagyas described in the Smritis, Itihasa, Arthashastras >or other Vedic and classical Sanskrit texts? > > Thank you for your help. > > Peter Freund I didn't notice a reply to this yet: Author: Heesterman, J. C. Title: The ancient Indian royal consecration: the R?ajas?uya described according to the Yajus texts and annotated by J.C. Heesterman. Published: 's-Gravenhage, Mouton, 1957. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 11 09:22:35 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 10:22:35 +0100 Subject: Hinduism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062488.23782.17175558781789578183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Your posting below is 17k. This is eight times longer than the maximum recommended length for INDOLOGY postings. Please, please, please be briefer in your replies. On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > Yaroslav Vassilkov wrotes : > > >If you only take trouble to look into some Hindu sacred texts, such as, > >e.g., PurANas, you would find that, according to them, Lord NArAyana took > >his Buddha avatar for only one reason: to tempt the sinners and heretic > >with > >the worst possible, false doctrine and in this way make sure that they will > >not escape hell. Do you mean it is in this particular way the Buddhism was > >developed and sustained by the Hindus? > > According to some "sacred" texts, say like the Padma PurAna even > Advaita is not actually VedAnta. Does this mean that this reflects > the whole "Hindu" view of Advaita, a school which enjoys the greatest > following amongst all such schools in BhArath? > > Take the Devi BhAratam for instance : According to it the Lord took > the form of the Buddha to put a stop to the slaughter of animals in > the name of Vedic sacrifices. It even accuses the brAhmanas of > deliberately misinterpreting the shruti, to satisfy their gluttony! > Does this justify your position? > > The influence of Buddhism on Advaita itself is well known. The founder > AchArya repeatedly salutes the compassionate one in his MAndUkya KArikA. Or > take Advaitins like Sri Harsha who openly acknowledges his indebtness to > MAdhyamaka dialectic. Or Citsukha, a VedAntin, who comes to the rescue of > the MAdhyamaka concept of Samvritti against KumArilla's attacks. Or > KumArilla himself, the champion of Vedic orthodoxy and BrAhminism, asserting > that Buddhist texts should be considered as authoritative. > > So do all this justify your position that "Hinduism" only had negative > value for the Buddha? Every cult/religious belief in India has it own > sectarian prejudices and so will interpret/misinterpret texts/spiritual > teachers according to their beliefs. Just because of one or two such views > we cannot immediately generalize it as relevant to the entire set of cults > in BhArath. As I said it is best to give up the notion of "Hindu" which > represents all the cults and religious practices of BhArath. > > Forget all these texts which are anyway read by a small minority of the > entire Hindu population : in my house, a traditional smartha brahmin house, > whatever ShankarAchArya might say still the Buddha has always been looked up > to as a symbol of purity, compassion and holiness. This, I would guess, is > the general "Hindu" view of the Buddha. > > S Hodge writes : > > >As far as I can see, you have inverted the original point. If Hindus > >want to group themselves with Buddhists, that is fine by me although > >there would perhaps arise some problems in those areas where Buddhism > >differs (as you are well aware in view of your other msg today) from > >Hindu beliefs. > > Like what? If the differences in philosophy is what you're talking about > I don't think you've understood the point I was trying to make. > > >But don't be surprised if some Buddhists -- Asian or Western are not > >entirely happy about being grouped by Hindus with Hindus -- with no > >disrespect intended towards Hinduism. > > As far as I can see, Ven Tantra, an Asian Buddhist has no problem. Quite a > few of the SinhAla Buddhist monks that I've met can't stop singing praises > about India's contribution to culture and religion and also claim to be > historically from India. And from what I read many Asians dream about being > born in India during the time of the future Buddha. So I doubt if there's a > problem on the Asian side. > > Ok, you say there's no disrespect intended. So if you are a Buddhist, > what makes you so reluctant to identify with the people of the land of > your religion's origin? > > >I was talking > >to one Hindu recently who thought that Buddhism is a montheistic > >religion in which each individual has a personal soul -- which doesn't > >sound like any Buddhism I have encountered. > > I won't bring up the Vastiputriya school. Anyway ignorance of metaphysical > tenets, is hardly an indicator of animosity or lack of affiliation towards > the religion. For that matter of the whole smartha population only a small > percentage are knowlegable about the metaphysical aspects of Advaita - that > doesn't mean that they don't belong to the tradition. > > >Yes, and you are being a little disengenuous about the purpose of this > >avataaram as another subscriber has pointed out -- or perhaps his > >comment does not count since he is an outsider Westerner. > > I hope that I've clarified this point in my reply to Prof. Vassilkov. And > I've already clarified that I didn't mean "outsider" that way. And let me > also make it clear that I'm not arguing for the sake of argument. If that's > your intention, let me know and I'll desist from further posts on the > subject. My aim is to primarily refute the common opinion that Hinduism is > antognistic/alien to Buddhism. I've my own reasons for this stand and am > willing to discuss it with anybody who's interested in having a sincere > discussion. > > >Because all living Buddhists are "second-generation" (even if Asian) does > >that somehow reduce the value of their transmission of the Dharma? > > Maybe not, but still the original cultural baggage would be lacking. I've to > remind you that our discussion is not about the quality of teaching imparted > by Asian monks, but rather the "ties" to India which would have been an > integral part of the original proslytization by Indian monks. > > >Out of interest, what status do you ascribe to Buddhist monks in Srilanka? > >Are they "Indian" by your definition ? Would they be an acceptable > >substitute for the now extinct monks from the mainland ? > > That Sri Lanka didn't get it from the Buddha himself and the religion was > spread in the land by an official mission by Ashoka some two hundred years > later makes some difference. > > Also if you take the philosophical development of Buddhist thought, Lanka > has hardly made a significant contribution - almost the entire chunk of > Buddhist philosophy was developed on the mainland. Why is this so? Maybe the > lack of brahmins in Lanka? > > Also, the Buddha is the symbol of compassion - vegetarianism at the > practical level - in India. A NyAya author from Bengal infacts rebukes > South Indian brahmins for being too Buddhistic in embracing vegetarianism. > Ashoka is remembered in India for having passed an order in favor of > vegetarianism in his whole realm. But neither the lay Sinhalese nor the > Buddhist monks themselves are vegetarian. So all this does make a > difference. > > >I do not intend this to sound discourteous, but what is you actual > >experience of Buddhist practitioners (NOT academics) in the West ? > > I've met quite a few MahAyAna and TheravAda practitioners in the US. > Apart from those, who seemed more attracted for the novelty value > - oriental clothes, food, figurines, incenses etc, the serious ones > seemed to be those cerebrally inclined and I don't think there's anything > wrong with it. What I'm trying to say is that the "devout" section, which > would represent the great mass of Asian practitioners - is missing in the > West. Infact I would think this section is what represents the majority of > Christian practitioners in the West. This I guess is what comes of a > "natural" religious acceptance, the way Christianity has been accepted in > the West. > > See, why would anybody in the West give up Christianity and take up > Buddhism? Christianity gives you everything Buddhism has to offer from > the religious standpoint - compassion, morality, salvation, God etc > Infact with Christianity you also have the exclusive clause which infact > gives the follower a special status in contrast to non-believers. So why > give it up and embrace Buddhism? If not for its philosophical value - the > cerebral factor, I cannot see any other reason. In few cases the techniques > in meditation and compassion too might be a factor : in a MahAyAna centre in > San Francisco, an old American lady practitioner embraced me for being Hindu > - because that translated as "vegetarian" to her. But apart from these I > don't see religious piety as a factor - in which case Christianity needn't > be given up in the first place. > > Atleast this is my perception as to why Buddhism in the West is different > from the way it is practiced in Asia. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > >On the contrary, that is exactly why many (but obviously not all) > >Westerners are attracted to Buddhism in the first place as these > >virtues are equally well exemplified in their non-Indian Asian > >teachers ! Your concept of the appeal of the "rational" aspects of > >Buddhism to Westerners seems to be based on the pre-1939 opinions of > >early Western Buddhists -- a bit out of date ? > > Maybe. > > >[Snip] I agree in general terms with your comments which followed but > >I do feel you rather over-simplify the situation to suit your own > >position. We can return to that another time. > > Or are you over complicating issues to suit your own views? Anyway your > objection would be more valid if you could explain why it is so simplistic? > > >If the Shakya polity inhabitants were of Tibeto-Burman stock, their > >proximity to the culturally and spiritually superior lands to their > >immediate south would have resulted in a desire to emulate various aspects > >of those lands -- without necessarily lessening any intrinsic differences. > > But neither the Tibeteans nor the Burmese are known to have adopted > "Hindu" names in their normal civilian mode - not in the monastic > sense. So "Gautam SiddhArtha" being a non-Hindu is unlikely. > > >I know many Chinese people who have adopted Western "first-names" but they > >still view themselves as Chinese first and formost. > > Proslytization of Christianity has different dimensions than the same > with Buddhism. As I explained before in Buddhism there was very little > cultural teaching - the teaching was mainly of the dharma and the > MahAyAnists infact seem to have gone out of their way to accomodate > their teachings with local beliefs and practices. On the contrary the > proslytization of Christianity was used as a tool of imperialism by the > colonists - to eradicate local cultures and spread the Western forms. > Maybe as pointed out before, it is something related to the nature of > the religion - Buddhism as an impersonal religion and Christianity as a > personality cult. > > >So you really agree with me -- one can be a Buddhist without being a > >Hindu ! Ask any Chinese Buddhist if they think they are really > >crypto-Hindus and I think you will get only one reply. If you think > >they should be classed as Hindus that is up to you but is it not a > >little presumptious for you to decide for them with first consulting > >with them -- self-determination and all that stuff. > > I think we're losing focus. I'm only arguing that Indian Buddhism is > Hindu. If Buddhists in other countries want to identify with Hindus, > they can in the cultural and religious sense - like Ven Tantra. But > if they like the Chinese want to view the term in its geographical > dimension, that's not a problem too. > > The point I'm trying to make is that it is not inappropriate for > Buddhists anywhere to identify themselves as Hindu. > > >Please supply references for this claim -- I thought we had all agreed > >that the term "Hindu" was primarily a late arrival on the scene. Do > >we have previously unnoticed early occurences of the term here ? A > >pretty revolutionary discovery ! > > Please don't twist my words. Here when I used the word "Hindu" I only > meant people who lived east to the Sindhu on the subcontinent. And > Gautama was born in a kshatriya family on these people. > > For references you only have to see the overwhelming evidence in the > Pali canon itself where Gautama takes pride in being "Arya" even in > the racial sense on occasions. Also note the Buddhist effort in some > texts to prove the superiority of kshatriyas over brahmins, because > Gautama was a kshatriya. Also can you point to a single instance in > any Buddhist work where Buddha is referred to as a "mleccha", which > he would have been in a casteist environment, which it sure was during > his time. Rather there are specific instances, where he is mocked > at for being a "low born kshatriya". > > Also I think both the Tibeteans and the Sinhalese view the historical > Buddha as a member of a royal Hindu kshatriya clan. > > >Please re-read your earlier statement to which I was replying. I > >think my comparison is perfectly adequate. > > Then I didn't understand it. Please explain. > > >Buddha's in-depth knowledge of brahmanical **philosophical** > >systems. > >Which might those be ? ("Philosophical" highlighted by me) Perhaps > >it is a matter of definition, but I see the Upanishads to be less > >philosophical than spiritual. > > Only in comparison to the later sutra literature. In the times preceding > it was was the only "philosophical" literature available. Anyway in his > discussion on various schools, he does show a more than casual knowledge of > systems like the SAmkhya, Yoga, JainA etc > > >But no matter -- he gained "an in-depth > >knowledge" by studying them -- but that still does not make him a > >"Hindu". > > Except that it wasn't so easy for a foreigner to learn such stuff in > India, where brahmins were extremely protective about such knowledge. > So it is next to impossible for Gautama to have had brahmin teachers > if he wasn't a dvija. > > >The Buddha's rejection of virtually all the key Upanishadic teachings is > >apparent from a cursory reading of any number of Pali suttas. > > When the study is cursory perhaps. But an intense study will prove > otherwise. > > >But have you not contradicted yourself here ? Philosophy to me > >implies reason but you said in your posting that this was not a > >central feature of Buddhism: ""Buddhism's stress on reason > >wouldn't have been as important as the above mentioned factors (= > >ethics and love). This would have appealed only to the intellectual > >minority"". I really get the feeling you want to have your cake and eat > >it. > > And I get the feeling that all this is just argument for argument's > sake without much factual substance. Anyway what's your level of > knowledge on the subject - are you a professor or have you published > something on the subject? > > And are you a follower of the TheravAda or the MahAyAna? > > And what's Lance Cousin's view on this subject? Is Gautama a "Hindu" > kshatriya or not? > > Regarding Naga Ganesan's observation's on "Dravidian kinship", I would > like to add that cross-cousin marraiges could have been abandoned by > the "Aryan" folk over a period of time, just like eating meat was. Just > because it is frowned upon at one point in time doesn't mean that it > were never practiced earlier. Still as Vidhya pointed out it still might > have been encouraged on certain situations: > In Tamil Nadu, the VAthima brahmin community is well known for marrying > strictly inside their own fold so as not to let their wealth out of their > family circles. In my own family, I've heard of atleast one instance of > cross cousin marraige. > > Another argument against Buddha being Dravidian/Tamil is the nature > of his religion - it is the cerebrally inclined brahmanic way - the > traditional jnaana or knowledge path of the Upanishads where self effort is > of prime importance. In contrast the Dravidian religion all through its > ancient history has consistently avoided this path - be it even Dravidian > influenced brahmanic Vishitadvaita or the Saiva SiddhAnta, where ultimately > only the Lord's grace will effect liberation. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 10:23:20 2000 From: shreebapat at HOTMAIL.COM (SHREENAND BAPAT) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 10:23:20 +0000 Subject: Pata~njali: one person or two? Message-ID: <161227062482.23782.7544486903669034227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of Indology, The Mahabhasya does not contain any Yogic references except those for the YAUGIKA words! It seems that the author of the Mahabhasya, was certainly different from the author of the Yogasutras though possessing the same name. Otherwise one must hand it to Patanjali if he could manage to make so water-tight compartments of his mind and reason while authoring the two texts. - Shreenand Bapat >From: Dmitri >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Pata~njali: one person or two? >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:42:07 +0100 > >Dear Indology memebers, > >The legend has it that the author of Yoga Suutra is the author of >Mahaabhaashya. > >Are there any reasons to believe that legend? >Say, are there "stylistical similarity" or "lexicon similarity" >studies between Yoga Suutra and Mahaabhaashya? > >I would appreciate references and/or >pro- & contra- arguments for the attribution of >Yoga Suutra and Mahaabhaashya to the same person. > >Best regards, Dmitri. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 11 09:26:37 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 10:26:37 +0100 Subject: Hinduism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062491.23782.11580889861802222111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Aaargh! I've done it myself. I was intending to send a message to Nanda Chandran, and posted it to the list in error. Apologies all round; on the other hand, please do note that the recommended upper limit on the size of postings to this list is 2k. That's about one screenful of text. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rao.3 at OSU.EDU Wed Oct 11 11:03:38 2000 From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 12:03:38 +0100 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062499.23782.5322282166231297471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a practical question regarding the meaning of 'Hindu': Are ISKCON (''Hare Krishnas'') members of European origin 'Hindus'? [It would be if the meaning is determined purely by religion.] Regards Nath From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Oct 11 10:11:58 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 12:11:58 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062496.23782.15452099948170897897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.C.Vijayaraghavan [SMTP:vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK] skrev 11. oktober 2000 00:08: > This distinction between race and ethnos is fine. But to call Gonds > dravidian in an ethnic sene is also a stretch. After all Gonds themselves > call themselves Gonds and the word 'dravidian' is unknown to them. Hence > ethnicity of Gonds is just Gond and not dravidian. It is not for non-Gonds > to put different labels on them Your point is well taken. I was not strictly speaking interested in the Gonds here, I just wanted to clarify a concept since "ethnic" is used quite widely and should not be confused with "race". >Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > It is my contention that people are not necessarily aware of the original etymologies of the words they use today, as seen in the recent posts about heresy and Greek heresias. Whatever a word may have originally meant in Greek or Latin, it comes loaded with more modern meaning when used in English. Again point well taken. It is the current meaning that is relevant unless we discuss older texts where the word is used in another sense (e.g. early nineteenth century Europeans using the word "race"). But as I pointed out above: "ethnic/ethnos" in the modern sense of the word cannot and should not be confused with "race" in the modern sense. That's all. :-) Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 11 19:50:52 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 12:50:52 -0700 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062535.23782.8014487499868962326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- nanda chandran wrote: > >I think, it is long shot to claim that the arrival of ShankarAchArya or > >Ramanuja catalyzed the re-conversion back to Hinduism. > > >It is more due to NayanmAr (especially Sambanthar, Appar and > >Manickavasagar) and AlwAr (especially three muthal Alwars). > >This re-conversion was at the end of KaLappirar rule and the start of > >Pallava rule. History is more clear on that. > > I wouldn't be too sure about that. For this assumes that the whole of > India or say southern India was conversant with Tamil. Though I wouldn't > contest this in case of TN and Kerala, but upwards North, I'm sceptical. > > Apart from this, four points why I think Shankara and RAmAnuja would have > played a major role in this reconversion than the Sangam poets : > > 1. They were brahmins and brahmanical effort in those days of yore had > its own weight. > 2. They wrote their main works on VedAnta in Sanskrit which has its > countrywide appeal. > 3. Though the Sangam poets were indeed the catalysts, it is my opinion > that the bhakti movement gained momentum as a country wide movement > only after the emergence of RAmAnuja - the brahmanic endorsement to > the cult and also backed by a fully developed metaphysical structure > - VisishtAdvaita. You persist in making wild claims that that neither care to cite any previously published studies nor respect the bounds of discussions prescribed for this group. I have not seen a single reference in any of your postings over the last year or so. I wonder whether I am in the Indology group or some chat club. ... To quote George Hart from "Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and their Sanskrit Counterparts", page 118 when he describes how the concept of chastity spread from Tamil society. "...before a group was assimilated, Brahmins would come into it and adopt those values most admired by that group in order to gain respect. Thus the custom would have gained a foothold in the Brahmanic religion and would be perpetuated when descendants of the Brahmins wrote lawbooks or copied texts with the appropriate insertions..." So instead of the Brahmins granting recognition to Tamil elements it has been them acting to save themselves from being swept aside by the Tamil movement. .. ... > > People who lived alongside the Tamils for milleneums and have contributed > substantially to their beloved language, are suddenly viewed as "Aryans" and > discriminated against. So you would say that the optimal situation would be when the Tamil brahmins are neither viewed by non-brahmins as Aryans nor claimed/believed by themselves to be Aryans? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 13:39:19 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 13:39:19 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062505.23782.6393412055561047173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But as I pointed out above: "ethnic/ethnos" in the modern sense of the word >cannot and should not be confused with "race" in the modern sense. That's >all. I agree fully. Have seen many academic literature that use "ethnic" in this sense. Gonds speak a Dravidian language, and so I called them Dravidians, as their kinship too happens to be Dravidian in nature. With kind regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Oct 11 09:47:06 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 15:17:06 +0530 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227062493.23782.9450396957351558993.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I suggest that the list observe a weekly holiday.When letters were written out and sent by courier mail, there was enough time to think and trevise. With electronic mail, it seems to be a case of post-now-think-later. Rajesh Kochhar +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231 fax 5754640 hm + 91 11 576 0281 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www} From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 11 15:19:04 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 15:19:04 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062524.23782.3200295392721717761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"Language family" like Dravidian, Indo-European, Uralic, is only an >analytic convenience and it should not be used to define ethnicities. Esteemed Indologist, Ethnic Dravidians are good examples of low-status folks for millennia. In old Sanskrit texts they are usually refered to as Shuudras. After an academic conference, with David Shulman, I went to greet Andree Sjoberg, the one who did work on Dravidology from 1960s. She told that Gonds and other Drav. tribes being "underdogs" did not impose their language on others. Among most Dravidians ethnicity and language coincide. The case of French and Bengali is different. Both got changed to an IE language from their original mother tongue. A good substratum of Munda and Dravidian exists in Bengali. The academic consensus, close to 100%, is that Indo-Aryan languages entered India after the decline of the Indus cuture and spread by intrusions. And, India is not the home of PIE. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 11 14:46:42 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 15:46:42 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062522.23782.12305595216941163027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: "N. Ganesan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 2:39 PM Subject: SV: SV: Kinship systems > >But as I pointed out above: "ethnic/ethnos" in the modern sense of the word > >cannot and should not be confused with "race" in the modern sense. That's > >all. > > I agree fully. Have seen many academic literature that use > "ethnic" in this sense. Gonds speak a Dravidian language, > and so I called them Dravidians, as their kinship too happens > to be Dravidian in nature. If Gonds are ethnic Dravidian because they speak a language of the dravidian group of languages, then Bengalis are the same ethnic group as French since both of them are in the same family group. But, even in Lars Fosse's example, 3 ethnic groups of Bosnians were and are at each other's throats on the basis of their ethnicity even though they spoke almost identical serbo-croat language. This shows that neither the language family nor the same language can be the marker of ethnicity. Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the same language as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified as a separate ethnic group - on their own request. "Language family" like Dravidian, Indo-European, Uralic, is only an analytic convenience and it should not be used to define ethnicities From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 11 15:51:20 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 16:51:20 +0100 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062527.23782.7226812473923845484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Ganesan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Kinship systems > >"Language family" like Dravidian, Indo-European, Uralic, is only an > >analytic convenience and it should not be used to define ethnicities. > > Esteemed Indologist, Dear Sir Thanks for your esteem, but the appellation Indologist is a bit pre-mature > Gonds and other Drav. tribes being "underdogs" did not impose > their language on others. Among most Dravidians ethnicity > and language coincide. Would you give an exception for Tamil Muslims of Srilanka who claim separate ethnicity.? And why should this privilege be available to "dravidians" which is not available to Bosnians When you say " Among most Dravidians ethnicity and language coincide" , on what observational basis you make this claim. To some extent this is a circular argument: You have already defined Dravidian both as an ethnic term and a language group. To properly make your claim, you must ask the people whom you consider as Dravidian language group speaking - like Malaylam, Gond, Brahui- and ask them to name their ethnicities. If the majority or even the sizable number of Kannada speakers, Gond Speakers, Tamil speakers, Brahui speakers name their ethinicity as 'dravidian' , then you are justified. Is that the case. But as far I can see, you have interviwed only Andree Sjoberg who does not seem to be a speaker of Gond or Brahui , to make this claim. > The case of French and Bengali is different. Both got changed > to an IE language from their original mother tongue. Pray tell us what is the "original mother tongue" of the French and the Bengalis > A good substratum of Munda and Dravidian exists in Bengali. > The academic consensus, close to 100%, is that Indo-Aryan > languages entered India after the decline of the Indus > cuture and spread by intrusions. And, India is not the > home of PIE. We are not discussing ancient history, but your methods of arriving at your conclusions From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Oct 11 15:13:46 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 17:13:46 +0200 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062530.23782.17392505984240948009.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.C.Vijayaraghavan [SMTP:vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK] skrev 11. oktober 2000 16:47: >This shows that neither the language family nor the same language can be the >marker of ethnicity. Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the >same language as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified as a >separate ethnic group - on their own request. An interesting and enlightening example! Ethnicity has a lot to do with identity, who you "feel" you are. That is why it is difficult to define in exact terms. Thus, Bosnians, Serbs, and Croats belong to the same "race", and speak practically the same language. However, they belong to three different religions and have three separate identities. On the other hand, I would guess that an American Catholic would be ethnically American and Catholic in terms of religion. There is no ethnic Catholicism in America, and religion is not an ethnic marker in the US. Or is it? Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From tawady at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 11 18:46:35 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 00 19:46:35 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062532.23782.7357810631412751166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This shows that neither the language family nor the same language can be the >marker of ethnicity. Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the >same language as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified as a >separate ethnic group - on their own request. It should be 'Tamil speaking Muslims' because there is no such thing as a Tamil Muslim in Sri Lanka. Indian media conveniently forgets this distinction when a Sri Lankan who is of Islamic faith (i. e with a Muslim/Arabic name) is caught smuggling narcotics, then they report that a Sri Lankan Tamil (i.e. LTTE !) is caught smuggling drugs but when a Sri Lankan of Islamic faith donates money to a Hindu Temple in India then it is Sri Lankan Muslim who donates money not a Sri Lankan Tamil. Sorry for digression but ethnic identities are used conveniently for political purposes throughout the world. Raveen From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 12 04:33:48 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 04:33:48 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and others, wasRe: RAJARAM EPISODE Message-ID: <161227062538.23782.7756041334174216563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S Madhuresan writes : >Buddha himself is a not a brahmin! When we talk about intelligensia, if you look at the history of Indian philosophy, the bulk of the philosophers have either come from the ranks of the ruling or the priestly class. Even the formers contribution seems to have waned with the passage of time - though kshatriyas have strong presence in the Upanishads, early Jainism and Buddhism, but after the Common Era, philosophy whether Astika or nAstika, seems to have become an exclusive brAhmanic enterprise. Even the common mistake that the Upanishads represent the rebellion of the kshatriyas against the brahmins - for the development of the Upanishadic doctrines to their full maturity as represented by the various schools of VedAnta was only at the hands of the brahmins. So it is in this sense that I said that the cessation of the flow of new brahmin blood in to bauddha ranks would have severely depleted their intelligensia. P Chandrasekaran writes : >You persist in making wild claims that that neither care to cite any >previously published studies nor respect the bounds of discussions >prescribed for this group. >I have not seen a single reference in any of your postings over the last >year or so. >I wonder whether I am in the Indology group or some chat club. Does citing from a previously published source gaurantee truth? No Indologist who's reasearching the subject - whether the Vedic or the Tamil civlization - has ever been physically present in any of these environments to come out with full authority and say,"this is the way it was and this is the truth". They read texts and TRY to understand and determine the way things were during those times. This implicitly involves a lot of speculation. So to assume that these people are the "absolute authorities" on the subject itself is a flawed perception. There's always room for mistakes and improvement. So in the same way I too have read texts and produce my arguments based on my perception of these texts. If you've any problem with my arguments please go ahead and point them out and we can evaluate the strength of the argument themselves. But it would a lame duck argument to merely complain that I'm not "citing" any previously published sources. Since you've brought it up, let me also make an observation here : why are the bulk of the authors cited by "Dravidologists" of non-Indian origin? Apart from a few of Indian scholars, the majority of those who endorse the "Dravidian" seem to be foreigners. What is their qualification to judge and ascertain whether Tamils are Dravidians? Sure, they might have formidable textual knowledge. But can mere textual or linguistic knowledge be enough to judge the racial/cultural basis of peoples? Have these people come and lived amongst the Tamils? Or even more important : have they lived life the Tamil way - have they eaten, slept, loved, fought, studied, died - the Tamil way? If not, how could they really understand the intricacies of Tamil culture? Have they lived with the Tamil brahmins to judge whether they are truly different from the other Tamils? Have they lived amongst North Indians to judge whether they are different from the Tamils? Unless they've done *all* this upon what base will they judge whether there truly is a dravidian race/culture? Even if they have done so, can it be really possible for them, who belong to other races, cultures and traditions which shapes and moulds their psychology and the way they view the world, with their own preconceptions - to truly comprehend Indian culture? Translating/interpreting philosophical/ethical works is one thing and Western Indologists have contributed phenomenally in this field. But to try to ascertain racial basis of cultures is a wholly different cup of tea and with a civilization as ancient and complex as the Indian, it is all the more difficult for non-Indians to understand them. Unless this realization sinks in we're still going to be talking about "Dravidian civilization", "panzer invasion" etc for the next few years! Dominic, please do not view this as some "nationalistic jingoism" and even here I confirm that my intention is not to offend. This is a genuine concern that I'm raising and so please view the issue objectively and if possible let's have a discussion on it. >... >To quote George Hart from "Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and their >Sanskrit Counterparts", page 118 when he describes how the concept of >chastity spread from Tamil society. >"...before a group was assimilated, Brahmins would come into it and adopt >those values most admired by that group in order to gain respect. Thus the >custom would have gained a foothold in the Brahmanic religion and would be >perpetuated when descendants of the Brahmins wrote lawbooks or copied texts >with the appropriate insertions..."So instead of the Brahmins granting >recognition to Tamil elements it has been them acting to save themselves >from being swept aside by the Tamil movement. You don't seem to have grasped the fundamental implication behind the "assimilation" process. Who assmiliates and who's assimilated? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 12 05:26:41 2000 From: vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM (Vijay Shankar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 06:26:41 +0100 Subject: soma/haoma: was Re: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: Message-ID: <161227062541.23782.4742255733411944779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What do you think of discussion on soma/haoma in the recent book The Vedic People by Kochhar (pp98-`112).Acc to Kochhar, soma/haoma is indeed the mountain-grown,ephedrine -yielding species of Ephedra.He says that the Ind- Iranian habitat must be the {common}Soma-land From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 12 14:04:58 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 07:04:58 -0700 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062571.23782.1322929586484017551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> contemporary political debates aside, isn't this list for the study of ancient india? In old times, people called themselves dramidacharyas, and pancha-dravida brahmanas. that area included even gujarat. ---- "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: > I agree that ethnic identity is what people 'feel' about who they are. It is > what a person would like the world to know and how he/she would project > himself/herslf in their most intimate personal and sexual relationships. On > this basis, I have a marker for ethnic identities.: matrimonial columns in > the case of India and lonely heart advertisements in western countries. > > I am sure you are aware of the multipage matrimonial columns in all Indian > newspapers in small letters. There you find people describe their identites. > You find "Ezhava youth", "Balija Naidu bride", Sikh Ramgarhia, Thodai > mandalam Mudaliar, Karuneegar graduate, Punjabi khatri, Valluvar bridegroom, > Tenkalai aiyangar, Telugu Baptist lecturer, Syrian christian Graduate, > Mulukunadu brahmin and hundreds of other indian identities. But guess what? > there is no one calling himself/herself as Dravidian - with an exception, I > have seen some Andhra dravida brahmin which are a caste group. > > I have quickly flipped through more than 100000 mariage ads over a number of > years. But there is never, never, never a Dravidian - either South or North > or West or East India. > > This shows dravidian identity applied to persons is a fiction created by > Indologists and Historians. When no one identifies as Dravidian in their > personal relationships and even in the anonymity of newspaper ads, then such > a person does not exist. Ethnic identity , to have any meaning, must have > personal meaning for individuals including their private lives > > If you flip through Lonely Heart ads in the west, you can see Scottish > youth, French school teacher, Mediterranean lady, English genleman, german > businessmn, Arab youth and so on. But even in these ads , there is no > Dravidian. > > I have not come across any American catholic , but if you across such a > description in sufficient numbers in American magazines, then you can > conclude there is an American Catholic identity __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 12 07:26:26 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 07:26:26 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062550.23782.7649274934934347516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the same language > > as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified as a separate > > ethnic group - on their own request. > > Not all Tamil Muslims would consider themselves separate from mainstream >Tamils. It is only a fringe minority which does so, most are aware that Mr. Abbas, perhaps you will realize that the discussion was about a Tamil-language-speaking, Islam-religion-following, Sri-Lanka-residing population. NOT Muslims in Tamil Nadu. > > There is no ethnic Catholicism in America, > > and religion is not an ethnic marker in the US. Or is it? > > To the best of my knowledge, the only American Catholic President was JF >Kennedy. The WASP - White Anglo-Saxon Protestants - do generally consider >themselves as ethnically separate from the Catholics who are mostly >Latinos, French and Italians. And Irish - JFK was the prime example. The trend in the US is to have all sorts of hyphenated Americans, based on the region of ancestral origin. But this holds largely for Christians of various denominations. There is a category of Muslim-Americans that intersects with that of Arab-American and Asian-American (African-American followers of the Nation of Islam are a separate category in themselves). A Lebanese Christian in the US would only be an Arab-American, but not a "Christian-American". Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Oct 12 12:42:09 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 08:42:09 -0400 Subject: reminder: S.A. electronic research workshop Message-ID: <161227062566.23782.14054052942658831969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Last minute reminder: ELECTRONIC INFORMATION FOR S. ASIA RESEARCH You can finally get a handle on effective strategies for conducting South Asia research using electronic information resources, by attending the special workshop session listed below, to be held at the Madison conference: Saturday 6:00-7:30pm 225 Pyle Come and learn how to reap the best of the South Asia content from both commercial database resources and internet "freebies" of research value. Learn advanced searching techniques and essential web starting points for your permanent online research toolkit. Conducted by Dr. David Magier, the presentation is intended for South Asia researchers and students at all levels. Apart from his work on SARAI and the Digital South Asia Library and his South Asia library work at Columbia, Dr. Magier has been an internet user for 22 years (!) and has been providing internet training for libraries and educational institutions, government agencies, NGOs, IGOs and the private sector all over the world for the last 10 years. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *** Navigating between the oases of the Internet: SARAI and beyond *** During the upcoming South Asia Conference at Madison, the Committee on South Asia Libraries & Documentation (CONSALD) will be presenting a workshop to assist South Asia studies scholars and students to better maximize use of the valuable resources that can be found on-line. This session will include a brief introduction to information gateways, search engines and searching the Web, offer suggestions for evaluating quality of Internet information, and highlight some of the resources for South Asia studies teaching, learning and research. It will be led by Dr. David Magier, South Asia Librarian at Columbia University, who maintains South Asia Resource Access on the Internet (SARAI). All conference attendees are welcome. (6-7:30pm Saturday, 14 October 2000, in 225 Pyle Hall, UW-Madison) From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Oct 12 07:58:07 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 08:58:07 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062553.23782.5215643629219257852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Martin Fosse" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 4:13 PM Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems > V.C.Vijayaraghavan [SMTP:vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK] skrev 11. oktober 2000 16:47: > > >This shows that neither the language family nor the same language can be > the > >marker of ethnicity. Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak > the > >same language as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified as a > >separate ethnic group - on their own request. > > An interesting and enlightening example! Ethnicity has a lot to do with > identity, who you "feel" you are. That is why it is difficult to define in > exact terms. Thus, Bosnians, Serbs, and Croats belong to the same "race", > and speak practically the same language. However, they belong to three > different religions and have three separate identities. On the other hand, > I would guess that an American Catholic would be ethnically American and > Catholic in terms of religion. There is no ethnic Catholicism in America, > and religion is not an ethnic marker in the US. Or is it? I agree that ethnic identity is what people 'feel' about who they are. It is what a person would like the world to know and how he/she would project himself/herslf in their most intimate personal and sexual relationships. On this basis, I have a marker for ethnic identities.: matrimonial columns in the case of India and lonely heart advertisements in western countries. I am sure you are aware of the multipage matrimonial columns in all Indian newspapers in small letters. There you find people describe their identites. You find "Ezhava youth", "Balija Naidu bride", Sikh Ramgarhia, Thodai mandalam Mudaliar, Karuneegar graduate, Punjabi khatri, Valluvar bridegroom, Tenkalai aiyangar, Telugu Baptist lecturer, Syrian christian Graduate, Mulukunadu brahmin and hundreds of other indian identities. But guess what? there is no one calling himself/herself as Dravidian - with an exception, I have seen some Andhra dravida brahmin which are a caste group. I have quickly flipped through more than 100000 mariage ads over a number of years. But there is never, never, never a Dravidian - either South or North or West or East India. This shows dravidian identity applied to persons is a fiction created by Indologists and Historians. When no one identifies as Dravidian in their personal relationships and even in the anonymity of newspaper ads, then such a person does not exist. Ethnic identity , to have any meaning, must have personal meaning for individuals including their private lives If you flip through Lonely Heart ads in the west, you can see Scottish youth, French school teacher, Mediterranean lady, English genleman, german businessmn, Arab youth and so on. But even in these ads , there is no Dravidian. I have not come across any American catholic , but if you across such a description in sufficient numbers in American magazines, then you can conclude there is an American Catholic identity From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 12 09:12:23 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 10:12:23 +0100 Subject: Weekly Holiday In-Reply-To: <003c01c03368$3791eee0$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227062556.23782.2797712541760415900.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What a nice idea. It would raise the tone considerably. But it's quite impossible to implement this kind of procedure for the INDOLOGY list; but if individuals wish to take this line, that's great. It reminds me of one of my favourite essays on critical writing, a short epilogue to _Studies in Words_ by C S Lewis. I don't have the passage to quote exactly, but Lewis says that if you are reviewing a terrible book on a subject you hate by an author you despise, you can always write your slashing review now, and put it to one side. A quiet reading later on may make it easy to decide to throw it in the bin. (I see I mentioned this book to the list five years ago!) On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > I suggest that the list observe a weekly holiday.When letters were > written out and sent by courier mail, there was enough time to think > and trevise. With electronic mail, it seems to be a case of > post-now-think-later. Rajesh Kochhar -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 12 10:29:21 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 10:29:21 +0000 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227062559.23782.14109677694479016810.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins writes : Lance, first of all, thanks for sharing your perceptions. >most but not all Buddhists who have thought about the matter seem to object >to the idea that Buddhism would be subordinated to Hinduism as a part, >particularly if that is used as a way of saying that Buddhism really >teaches, say, Advaita Vedaanta. As pointed out by you the conception of "Hindus" props up as an identity only when Christians and Muslims are brought into the picture. Individually we're smartha or Vaishnava or Saiva or Jaina or Bauddha or Sikh - basically followers of any faith born on the soil of India - well aware of our individual identities as well as our shared values - the dharma. We do not try to subordinate Buddhism to Hinduism. Buddhism is a distinct branch of the dharmic tree - which was developed, sustained and abandoned by our ancestors. We recognize its distinctness but also know that the best of what it had to offer has been assimilated by our faiths, which were themselves heavily influenced by Buddhism. Our only problem is when somebody tries to say that Buddhism is alien or opposed to our faiths or we destroyed Buddhism etc If anything apart from the Islamic invasions destroyed Buddhism in India, it was its stand asserting its validity on the base of reason - "as the wise test gold by cutting and rubbing ...". As Shankara observes : reason can be overcome by sharper reasoning. In the constant debating environment of India where philosophers of rival schools learnt from each other and improved on their school's doctrines, Buddhism was fated to die out one day when other faiths too developed doctrines as sharp or sharper than its own. Over a period of time it was destined to become irrelevant (not in its ethical sense where it shared many values with rival schools and where it didn't, its tenets were adopted by its rivals). In contrast most other schools have survived, because they avoided this mistake and sought refuge in dogma instead. With dogma there's unmistakable individuality and hence survival. And regarding its relation to Advaita VedAnta, the truth is one - whether YAgnavalkya or the Buddha or VardhamAna or NAgArjuna or Shankara - all of them are unanimous that truth is beyond the intellect. So leaving theory aside, considering the nature of the truth that they taught, unless you want to label some of them as liars, we've to assume that they taught various ways to the same goal. Ramana Maharishi, acknowledged the world over as a realized being, too affirms this. >For that matter, many (or most?) Jains, Sikhs, etc. have a similar >objection. Jains in India today are almost indistinguishable from mainstream "Hindus". But in the current perverted political scenario of India, the Sikh religion developed and sustained by Hindus - later became the swordarm of Hinduism against Islamic oppression - Hindus used to give their first born to the sect - its various Gurus have martyred for the cause of Hindus - now its adherents do not want to identify themselves as "Hindu". First it was Pakistan which actively sowed the seeds of distrust in the minds of the Sikhs against the "Hindus" which resulted in the loss of thousands of lives. Now it is the Indian leftists who are against the integration of the Sikhs into the "Hindu" mainstream, because anything which rallies around in the name of "Hindu" is anaethma to them. >But I don't believe that becoming a Buddhist, etc. meant that you rejected >some general religious tradition we could call Hinduism or Brahmanism. >Rather you adopted certain practices and rejected others. One has to only read the JainA stories or the JAtaka tales to understand this. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Oct 12 05:52:41 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 11:22:41 +0530 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems In-Reply-To: <01C033C1.BFF23480.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227062544.23782.4514337004125806329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote: > Closer to Taminadu, Tamil Muslims in Srilanka speak the same language > as the rest of the Tamils, but they are classified as a separate > ethnic group - on their own request. Not all Tamil Muslims would consider themselves separate from mainstream Tamils. It is only a fringe minority which does so, most are aware that Muslims form only a small minority of the population of Tamilnadu and that making such claims does not benefit them at all. Incidentally, virtually all Tamil-speaking Muslims are converts from Tamil Shaivism. Many Tamil Muslims took active part in the old Dravidian ideology - there was never any emnity between these groups. The claim for a separate Tamil Muslim ethnicity has however gained ground with the spread of BJP to the South and the decline of Dravidiansim. Communalists on both sides feed on one another, and, in recent years, the call for a separate `Tamil Muslim' identity has gained ground at the expense of the previous `non-Brahmin' identity. This has occurred in part because many Tamils now refer to themselves as `Hindus', forcing the Muslims to declare themselves as separate. This is a recent phenomenon, and its effects are not yet clear. Should Dravidianism stage a comeback, this would be a short-term trend. On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > There is no ethnic Catholicism in America, > and religion is not an ethnic marker in the US. Or is it? To the best of my knowledge, the only American Catholic President was JF Kennedy. The WASP - White Anglo-Saxon Protestants - do generally consider themselves as ethnically separate from the Catholics who are mostly Latinos, French and Italians. Samar From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Thu Oct 12 10:37:18 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 11:37:18 +0100 Subject: A NEW CONTROVERSIAL BOOK ON THE LIFE OF BUDDHA Message-ID: <161227062561.23782.17552148723471994301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mentioned below is the news item published in a newspaper . All kinds of books get written. Thanks. Anand M. Sharan ---------------------------------------------------------- Patna `Buddha's estimated birth date off by 546 yrs' The Times of India News Service GAYA: Prafulla Chandra Roy, well-known Buddhist scholar and retired professor of Ancient Indian and Asian studies, has claimed that Lord Buddha lived 546 years earlier than what is believed to his birth date. According to the acknowledged estimate, Buddha was born in the year 563 BC and he lived till 483 BC. As per the claim made by the Buddhist scholar in his forthcoming book, Buddha Ki Tithi, part I, the lord was born in the year 1109 BC and not 565 BC. Roy has also put the year of Buddha's final salvation as 1029 BC against 483 BC acceptable to the majority of historians. The book is scheduled to be released on October 13. The author claims to have re-assessed Buddha's age on the basis of eight years of non-stop research between 1992-2000. In the 170-page book written in Hindi, Dr Roy has given nine different sources on which he has relied while making the re-assessment of Buddha's age. He has primarily based his assessment on the Ashokan inscriptions discovered in 15 different places including Sasaram, Rupnath (Madhya Pradesh), Ahrora (UP), Iragudi (Andhra Pradesh), Siddhapur (Karnataka), Bariat (Rajasthan) and Palkigundu (Raichur, Karnataka). Roy claims that Buddha died (attained final salvation) 788 years before the first inscriptions made during the rule of Ashoka. Ashoka assumed the throne in the year 273 BC and 12 years later ie. 261 BC, he started the inscription campaign. Calculated on this basis, Buddha died in the year 1029 BC and not 483 BC as per the presently acknowledged assessment. Moreover, the Chinese king named Ping Wang got a statue of Maitriya Buddha installed 300 years after Buddha's death. Wang ruled between 770- 719 BC, much before the year 563 BC when as per the existing belief Buddha was born. Buddha's statue could not have preceded the real Buddha. Besides the Chinese source, Roy has also relied on the Japanese Ther tradition to make his own calculation of Buddha's real age. Roy has also relied on the Mahabharat to substantiate his claim. He has come out with a somewhat sensational theory that the Pandavas were the first Buddhist monks who strayed away to give up celibacy and collectively adopt Draupudi as wife. They had to repent for violating the holy Buddhist monk code, says the author on page 77 of the book. Pandava, according to the book, is derived from Pandu which means yellow. The Buddhist monks did have yellow robes. According to Roy, the Kauravas were in fact neo-Aryans of Iranian origin while the Pandavas were ancient Aryans. The book and the claims made therein promise to create interest as well as controversy in the academic circle. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Thu Oct 12 06:07:38 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 11:37:38 +0530 Subject: soma/haoma: was Re: booknotice (occasioned by Civility on the List: Message-ID: <161227062547.23782.6784564711692087856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vijay Shankar wrote: > What do you think of discussion on soma/haoma in the recent book The Vedic > People by Kochhar (pp98-`112).Acc to Kochhar, soma/haoma is indeed the > mountain-grown,ephedrine -yielding species of Ephedra.He says that the Ind- > Iranian habitat must be the {common}Soma-land Soma is neither a plant or a plant juice, in normal sense of these words. -- Himanshu ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 12 13:25:49 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 13:25:49 +0000 Subject: "pumpkin" myth and ikSvAku Message-ID: <161227062568.23782.4716781868956232061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have read that the dynasty name, ikSvAku is related with the Austroasiatic "pumpkin" myth. For example, Dr. K. Elst refers to Bernard Sergent. "e.g. the birth of the human race from a pumpkin, preserved in the patriarch's name Ikshvaku/pumpkin comes from SE Asia." Can a lister look into B. Sergent, Gen?se de l'Inde and, give me the reference where Ikshvaku and pumpkin are linked? Thanks. Prof. Vassilkov once talked about the floods myth. "The Indian myth by its archaic plot-structure is much closer to the Mesopotamian myth, than, e.g., to the Austro-Asiatic versions where brother and sister escape in a hollow pumpkin," Following my post, "kEkaya, zAkya (Buddha's clan), Ehu Saantamula, and tamil cEku/eHku", it is possible to give an alternate explanation for the title, ikSvAku which is in RV X.60.4. For a son or great person of a clan, usually "maka_n" is added in Dravidian kings' title. Example: atiyamA_n/atiyamaka_n is called "satiyaputo" in Asokan inscriptions. "maka" is 'son' reconstructed by Zvelebil for PDr. (Drav. linguistics: an intro.) I also think the same "makan"(drav. for son) is in zAlivAhana/zAtavAhana where -vAhana < drav. "makan". Drav. kEku = strong. Prof. Parpola derives milakkha < *mElakam (tamil). zAkya is ikkhaga in MIA which is ultimately related to this drav. kEka-(tamil cEku). Then combining, kEk- with maka, ikSvAku can be derived. Its stages are something like: Drav. kEk-maka > *ikkhvaku > ikSvAku. Thanks for pointing to the reference in Sergent, Genese de l'Inde, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Oct 12 11:29:35 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 16:59:35 +0530 Subject: HINAs Message-ID: <161227062564.23782.1262015660602316627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any study on the endeavours by the Hindus In North America to preserve their cultural identity and preserve their gene pool? rajesh kochhar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 12 16:15:03 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 17:15:03 +0100 Subject: Rediff -- stay well clear! Message-ID: <161227062573.23782.17858881680237726355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I visited the Rediff website once or twice, and they must have filched my email address from my browser. Now I'm bombarded with advertisements from them. When I complain, they write back nicely, saying that they will remove my name from their lists, but it doesn't happen. Or else the peace only lasts for a short time. They must have staff or programs scouring the web for addresses in an aggressive campaign to widen their advertising. It's a disgrace, and I strongly advise all INDOLOGY members not to touch Rediff unless you want a relentless stream of junk email advertising. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 12 16:17:52 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 17:17:52 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062575.23782.10495419062266854021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do Tamil Muslims consider themselves to be separate from the mainstream, and is any such separateness gaining ground because of the spread of the BJP ? I have the following raw data to add (taken from "The Muslim Situation in India", edited by Iqbal Ansari, 1987. 1. Supposedly the earliest Madrasa in Tamil Nadu is Madrasa Baqiathus Salihath, Vellore, founded 1884. 2. A number of colleges have been set up, the olded being Islamiah College, Vaniyambadi, 1921; the newest at the time of the essay was Muslim Arts College, 1984. 3. The Organization of Muslim Educational Institutions, Associations and Trusts of Tamil Nadu (OMEIAT) was founded in 1973. 4. The Govt. of Tamil Nadu has classied Muslims as a backward class (I don't have the date, but it precedes 1987, obviously). The question is : are such institutions symbols of a separate ethnicity or not ? If they are, what does any of it have to do with the BJP ? -arun gupta From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Oct 12 17:53:06 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 18:53:06 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062578.23782.14984266329412674406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arun Gupta" To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 5:17 PM Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems > Do Tamil Muslims consider themselves to be separate from the mainstream, and > is any such separateness gaining ground because of the spread of the BJP ? > > I have the following raw data to add (taken from "The Muslim Situation in > India", edited by Iqbal Ansari, 1987. > > 1. Supposedly the earliest Madrasa in Tamil Nadu is Madrasa Baqiathus > Salihath, Vellore, founded 1884. > > 2. A number of colleges have been set up, the olded being Islamiah College, > Vaniyambadi, 1921; the newest at the time of the essay was Muslim Arts > College, 1984. > > 3. The Organization of Muslim Educational Institutions, Associations and > Trusts of Tamil Nadu (OMEIAT) was founded in 1973. > > 4. The Govt. of Tamil Nadu has classied Muslims as a backward class (I don't > have the date, but it precedes 1987, obviously). > > The question is : are such institutions symbols of a separate ethnicity or > not ? If they are, what does any of it have to do with the BJP ? Let us not get diverted into ethnicity of Muslims of Tamilnadu. I just gave the illustration of Muslims in Srilanka to show why a single language is no criterion of a single ethnicity From tawady at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 12 18:17:21 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 19:17:21 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062580.23782.15474019086851158772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:53:06 +0100, V.C.Vijayaraghavan >> >> The question is : are such institutions symbols of a separate ethnicity or >> not ? If they are, what does any of it have to do with the BJP ? > >Let us not get diverted into ethnicity of Muslims of Tamilnadu. I just gave >the illustration of Muslims in Srilanka to show why a single language is no >criterion of a single ethnicity Communalisation of Muslims in Sri Lanka An Historical Perspective By F. Zackariya and N. Shanmugaratnam available in the net at http://www.mnet.fr/aiindex/SL_communal.html also Emerging ethnic consciousness in contemporary Muslim society by Jezima Ismail (not a book but a newspaper article archived at) http://www.egroups.com/message/Lanka_muslim_link/7 Raveen From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Oct 12 22:52:20 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 00 23:52:20 +0100 Subject: soma/haoma Message-ID: <161227062583.23782.8749319663041710834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vijay Shankar wrote: > Acc to Kochhar, soma/haoma is indeed the mountain-grown,ephedrine -yielding species of Ephedra. He says that the Indo-Iranian habitat must > be the {common}Soma-land. I wonder how many of the scholars who have theories about the botanical identity of soma have actually tried ingesting the plants they propose. In my experience, ephedrine alone is interesting but does not seem adequate to deserve the high praise soma is given in the Rg Veda. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Oct 12 22:50:53 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 00:50:53 +0200 Subject: JSAWS vol. 6, no. 1 (ISSN 1085-7478) Message-ID: <161227062585.23782.14582216250626537566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, We are pleased to announce the publication of vol. 6, no. 1 of the *Journal of South Asia Women Studies*. On October 1, 2000 the journal has celebrated its 6th year of life. We celebrate its birthday by publishing a paper on the same topic we started this publication: dowry and bride burning in India. This paper intends to provide an economic rationale for the dowry system in India. http://www.asiatica.org/publications/jsaws/vol6_no1/toc.asp The issue will be free for 3 days. You will be able to read the previous JSAWS issues by becoming a member of the journal. Life membership until Dec. 31, 2000: US$ 50. TABLE OF CONTENTS NOTE FROM THE EDITOR: Our Sixth Year PAPER: *Dowry and its Effect on Marital Choices in India*, by Sonia Dalmia NEW TITLES: *Ashes of Immortality: Widow Burning in India*, by Catherine Weinberger-Thomas *Light in the Crevice Never Seen*, by Haunani-Kay Trask ABSTRACT OF THE PAPER The marriage market can be viewed as an implicit market in bride and groom attributes. The resulting market equilibrium associates a price with each match. Dowry is then the price of a good match in the marriage market. The theory of equalizing or compensating differences originally developed by Adam Smith in 1974 has only recently been assessed using labor market data. The theory of equalizing differences is particularly suitable for the analysis of marriage markets, once price differences among grooms are recognized as equalizing differences for the alternative bundles of characteristics they possess. Dowry is a "payment for the establishment of socio-economic alliances valuable to the bride's family," where the value of these alliances to the bride's family is not balanced by a comparable value to the groom's family. In other words, dowry compensates the groom's family for the creation of an unequally valuable alliance. The potential spouse with the most to gain from the married state pays a surplus to the spouse who gains less. The surplus paid is dowry if the less eager spouse is male, and a bride price if the less eager spouse is female. In the empirical investigation of marriage markets, one issue of interest is determining how the price of grooms varies as their characteristics vary. The other subject of interest is estimating structural demand functions for attributes of the grooms; but the absence of directly observable attribute prices poses a problem for such estimation. In a seminal paper, Rosen in 1974 proposed a "two-step" procedure whereby attribute prices are estimated first as derivatives of a hedonic price function and these are then used to predict the parameters of household demand functions for attributes. The results of consistent parameter estimates support the hypothesized, equalizing differences, role of marital arrangements. Measurable groom characteristics on which compensating price differentials have been shown to arise empirically include groom's age at marriage, education and height. In regions more to the north, dowries were found to be higher. Most importantly, contrary to popular belief, I find that holding groom characteristics constant, real dowries have decreased over time. In the period 1971-1994 real dowry payments decreased with the grooms' age and level of education suggesting that social and economic changes have increased the attractiveness of grooms as potential spouses more than that of the brides in India. Finally, in estimating the parameters of the demand functions for a set of groom attributes, results show that the most important determinants of demand for various groom attributes are price of the attribute, bride's traits, and the socio-economic status of the bride household. *************************************END******************************* Happy reading! EG -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli Dept. of Philosophical and Linguistic Sciences University of Perugia Piazza Morlacchi, 11 -06123 Perugia, Italy Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Tantric Studies Journ. of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org ********************************************************* From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Oct 13 03:34:32 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 04:34:32 +0100 Subject: Book on Gautama Buddha's date Message-ID: <161227062589.23782.1608447334983624982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The book "Historic Dates" by Mr.V.G.Ramachandran (1991) published by the general editor Dr. N. Mahalingam for International Society for the Investigation of Ancient Civilizations, 102, Mount Road, Guindy, Madras 600032 presents some evidence for Buddha's birth date to be around 1886 BC. The presence of the word "Yavana" in Mahabharata is taken as evidence for some part of Mahabharata being written after 326 BC when Indians got to know Greeks or Yavanas after Alexander Javanani's fight with the king Porus. The above book discusses this problem also. Before Alexander's destruction of Persian Empire, Indians were in the Pan Asian Army of Persia. Hence they had knowledge prior to 326 BC of Yavanas, Ionians, Carians, Phoenicians and Greeks. Some of these people participated in the Suez canal digging project of the Persian Emperor Daurius around the middle of the sixth century BC. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 13 14:34:42 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 07:34:42 -0700 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062598.23782.12004186384335933621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: > In any case Idangai/valngai has the merit of > being self-referrents and hence better candidates for ethnicity - and not > something imposed by "outsiders" to the system. I do not know how the Tamil classification, not found in any other language groups, of "Idangai/valngai" will be "better candidates for ethnicity". In India or elsewnhere in the world, it is not used in academia. Does anyone advocate this? By the way, there is nothing wrong in something good coming from outside and using it. For example, human flight machines - though "brihad-vimAna-shastrams" tell us that planes were invented in India. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Fri Oct 13 07:07:56 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 08:07:56 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062591.23782.2994082224860982081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: "Swaminathan Madhuresan" > contemporary political debates aside, isn't this list > for the study of ancient india? In old times, > people called themselves dramidacharyas, and > pancha-dravida brahmanas. that area included even > gujarat. Your points are valid. But I was not doing a "political debate", but getting clarifications of the way a word viz ethnicity is used Since it was claimed "Gonds are ethnic dravidians", it is not a statement of ancient India, but today's. This statement assumes these propoitions : 1. Ethnic clasifications are valid for India .2. There are ethnic groups in India 3. Ethnic groups are based on language "families" 3.Dravidian is one of those ethnic groups 4. Gonds are also dravidian. I protest against all these propositions being taken as self-evident truths . A little examination shows that none of these statements are valid. It is an irrational urge to put ethnic labels on everybody in the world. I agree about Pancha dravida and dramidacharyas. (ancient India at last) But they are not ethnic categories as it is understood in the west. Pacha dravida sounds more like a Idangai and Valangai groupings. It is not anymore "ethnic" than Idangai/Valangai. In any case Idangai/valngai has the merit of being self-referrents and hence better candidates for ethnicity - and not something imposed by "outsiders" to the system. From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Fri Oct 13 13:53:02 2000 From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela or Alain Sandness Leblanc) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 08:53:02 -0500 Subject: soma/haoma Message-ID: <161227062593.23782.10465668906978723166.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the question of the botanical identity of soma, those interested may want to review Tatiana Elizarenkova's article, "The problem of Soma in the light of language and style of the Rgveda published in the conference proceedings entitled "Langue, style et structure dans le monde indien : centenaire de Louis Renou : actes du Colloque international (Paris, 25-27 janvier 1996" by (Paris) Librairie H. Champion in 1996 in the series Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Hautes Etudes IVe section, Sciences historiques et philologiques, fasc. 334 on pages 13-31. Best wishes, Adela Sandness ---------- >From: Stephen Hodge >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: soma/haoma >Date: Thu, Oct 12, 2000, 5:52 PM > >Vijay Shankar wrote: > >> Acc to Kochhar, soma/haoma is indeed the mountain-grown,ephedrine > -yielding species of Ephedra. He says that the Indo-Iranian habitat >must >> be the {common}Soma-land. > >I wonder how many of the scholars who have theories about the >botanical identity of soma have actually tried ingesting the plants >they propose. In my experience, ephedrine alone is interesting but >does not seem adequate to deserve the high praise soma is given in the >Rg Veda. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge > From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Fri Oct 13 16:49:09 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 09:49:09 -0700 Subject: Identity (was Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems ) Message-ID: <161227062601.23782.15655724129739237668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > contemporary political debates aside, isn't this list > for the study of ancient india? In old times, > people called themselves dramidacharyas, and > pancha-dravida brahmanas. that area included even > gujarat. But, pray, Lord of Madhura, like the Lord's son at Swamimalai, would you enlighten us all your own identity and preferences... since you have so much to say on so many varied subjects and times, are you a moderner or an ancient or beyond Time ? I am sure your words will come like the cooling southern mountain breeze to all of us, but will yet warm the cockles of our beloved list founder's heart, who ever-so-lovingly beseeched all his innumerous anAmadheya offsprings on yahoo.com, hotmail.com to identify themselves, but just once in a while. dayaleni, -Srini. From rg.thomas at NEPEAN.UWS.EDU.AU Fri Oct 13 01:34:16 2000 From: rg.thomas at NEPEAN.UWS.EDU.AU (Richard Gwyn Thomas) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 11:34:16 +1000 Subject: uroja Message-ID: <161227062587.23782.5603501335487501618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am studying the archaeology of Champa (Vietnam), and in the course of my work I have been looking at the inscriptions of the kings of that country. Beginning in the 9th century AD the kings of Champa (particularly the usurpers) start to reference their lineages back to a mythical figure named Uroja. In the first inscription in which this appears the gender of Uroja is slightly ambiguous as he/she is referred to as a 'receptacle' the 'dust beneath the feet of Cambhubhadesvara and in the context of the Bhuddist inscription, this would seem to be a feminine receptacle world. However, in later sivaite inscriptions Uroja is definately referred to as a mythical king. Does anyone know the basis for this figure, Uroja within an Indic context? From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Fri Oct 13 16:58:26 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 12:58:26 -0400 Subject: Sadhanamala Message-ID: <161227062603.23782.13796175746240701991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings- I am trying to locate an edition of the Sadhanamala. Bhattacharyya's edition seems to be out of print. Does anyone know of any other editions that might be available? Thank you Dante Rosati From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 13 13:34:53 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 13:34:53 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062596.23782.14047243889182379406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To know whether Gonds are Dravidians or not, I suggest a starting point. In Sanskrit, DraviDa/dramiDa is from "thamizh". It was Walter Elliot, a British civil servant, who first noted the genetic relationship of the language of Gonds with that Dravidian languages like Telugu, etc., This happened several years even before Caldwell. Walter Elliot, Observations on the Language of the Gonds and the identity of many of its terms with Telugu, Tamil and Canarese, 1847, Jl. of the Asiatic Society of Bengal. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 14 02:26:38 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 00 19:26:38 -0700 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062605.23782.8736146840959199896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > --- "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" > wrote: > I do not know how the Tamil classification, not > found in any other > language groups, of "Idangai/valngai" will be > "better candidates for > ethnicity". Re Right Hand-Left Hand: This classification *is* found in other groups. Refer for example, the Kannada terms "balagey" and "edagey" and the Telugu terms "kAMpulu" and "paJcANulu" used for the Right Hand-Left Hand caste division. (cf. B Stein, Peasant State and Society in Medieval South India, pp 174-5). > In India or elsewnhere in the world, it > is not used in academia. Actually the concept of Right-Left Hand Castes seeems to be a heavily discussed concept even in academia. Stein in his book cited above has a fairly long chapter titled "Right and Left Hand Castes" (pp. 173-214). Stein says that this has been "the subject of serious scholarly speculation for almost a century". Also, Brenda Beck's "Peasant Society in Konku" (Univ of British Columbia, 1972) which is said to use this concept as a central organizing principle, might be of interest to you. Stein quotes a long list of scholars on this topic incl Dumont, Arjun Appadorai, McKim Marriott, CS Srinivasachari, R Narasimha Rao etc etc. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Oct 14 10:48:28 2000 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 00 11:48:28 +0100 Subject: MEANING OF THE WORD - " JANTAR _ MANTAR " Message-ID: <161227062614.23782.322018777737161769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 2 Oct 2000 Anand M. Sharan wrote: > I was waiting to see if any one on this web site would clarify the meaning > of the above mentioned word mentioned by Dr. Stone who thinks it means in > this context as observatory . > > G.R. Kaye has written a book entitled, " A Guide to the Old Observatories > at Delhi; Jaipur; Ujjain ; Benares " published in 1920, and republished by > The Academic Press, Gurgaon, Haryana, in 1985 . > > He also writes that the place was called Jantar Mantar even then. While the > instruments made of brick etc have names such as Samrat ( Emperor ) Yantra > etc. none of the instruments or mechanisms have the name Jantar Mantar . > > Who gave its name - Jantar Mantar ? > > Jantar is - Yantra . The letter Ya has different pronounciation in > different regions of India . If we start from the South India , its > pronounciation is as it should be in Sanskrit - it is Ya . As we move > north, Ya gets changed to Ja . Secondly, in Yantra , tra gets changed to > tar in the North India in local spoken languages . Hence, Yantra becomes > Jantar . I am not a linguist but this what I have observed . > > Now , we come to the second word - Mantar . Here, using the same reasoning > as before, Mantra becomes - Mantar . Hence Yantra - Mantra has become > Jantar Mantar . Correct. > Where is the Mantra in these instruments ? Usually, a Mantra is something > which can not be explained by cause and effect relationships in common > usage . Something that is not readily apparent . In which of these > instruments is this applicable ? > > It is in the Samrat Instrument - The Sundial . There was no other dial > then.In Europe, at that time the clocks were made which were small and > accurate but the need was to know the longitude for sea farers. The need > was very different . Here, it was for astronomy . Jaisingh did not rely on > brass instruments which could not maintain allignments, and dimensional > accuracy due to temperature changes . It was the need which determined the > type of construction. In Jaisingh's instruments bigger gave better > resolution i.e., smallest unit of time which one could see . I have just noticed that in 1844 Sir Thomas Metcalfe presented his daughters with a compilation entitled 'Reminiscences of Imperial Dehlie' [imperial here = Mughul]. Near the beginning is an account of the Delhi Jantar-Mantar, which begins: The Observatory at Dehly denominated the "Juntur-Muntur", literally Witchcraft, was constructed by the Maha Raja Jey Singh of Jeypoor ... . [ref 1] Hindi 'jantar-mantar' can mean "jugglery, conjuring, witchcraft, an observatory", while 'yantramantra' is "sorcery, magic". [ref 2]. Hence one may speculate that 'Jantar-Mantar' is something of a popular name arising from the mystery of astronomical/astrological work as a whole, and not from any particular instrument. I have not been able to ascertain whether the observatories at Ujjain and Varanasi bear the same designation. References: [1] Reproduced in M.M.Kaye, The Golden Calm. New York, 1980. [2] Bhargava's Standard Illustrated Dictionary of the Hindi Language. Varanasi, 1957. Regards, Tony Stone From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 14 16:40:11 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 00 12:40:11 -0400 Subject: More evidence on Rajaram's Fraud & Fantasy Message-ID: <161227062609.23782.10863502116541080553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The new issue of FRONTLINE has two important letters regarding Rajaram's "Fraud and Fantasy" book: * one by Harappa excavator Richard Meadow (on one more point of total confusion of, and subsequent rabid attack by Rajaram regarding "the oldest script"); * the other one, by the famous Indus script expert, Iravatham Mahadevan, that clearly shows that Rajaran had the *correct photo* (copy of Mackay) in hand in 1997! I copy Meadow's and Mahadeva's letters below for thsoe with slow onlinbe access. But, this way you miss the sketch referred to below! Read all readers' letters at: http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1721/17211220.htm ============================================================== Horseplay in Harappa I congratulate you on publishing the forthright article by Michael Witzel and Steve Farmer, titled "Horseplay in Harappa" (October 13). In the article the authors refer to Rajaram and Jha's claim to have read a "pre-Harappan" text from Harappa. The potte ry "tablet" from Harappa that they claim to have "read" is the lead illustration in a BBC Online story by Dr. David Whitehouse titled "'Earliest Writing' found." This story and the image can be viewed at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid-3 34000/334517.stm. The image of the inscribed piece of pottery was obtained by the BBC directly from the website maintained by Omar Khan, http://www.harappa.com, and was never seen before publication by me or by any of our team who were excavating at Harappa at thetime (M ay 4, 1999). This is unfortunate because the image depicted in the BBC story is not the object discussed in the Online story. That object, a potsherd with a triple trident motif dating to sometime between 2800 and 3500 B.C., was at the time and still is available on the Harappa website http://www.harappa.com/indus2/124. html and is also illustrated on page 15 of the October 13 issue of Frontline. Instead of being willing to accept that the BBC had made an error and depicted the wrong image, Rajar am has launched into a remarkable diatribe on the "Sword of Truth" website excoriating me for a clarification that was distributed on the Indology Listserver in which I pointed out the error made by the BBC and also pointed out that while the body of the BBC story was basically correct, the first and last sentences served to sensationalise the story. In the end, of course, it is a matter of trust in the integrity of the individuals concerned and acknowledgement that definitive statements on matters of archaeological context can only be made by the excavators of a site. In addition, the appropriate pl ace for such statements is in publications by the archaeologists themselves and not in news stories written and photographs chosen by journalists who are sometimes not as careful as they might be in checking their material. Richard H. Meadow Project-Director, Harappa Archaeological Research Project Peabody Museum Harvard University, Cambridge meadow at fas.harvard.edu ---------------------------- Half-bull and the full horse I read with interest the article "Horseplay in Harappa" by Michael Witzel and Steve Farmer (October 13). As my views on the controversial Harappan seal (Mackay 453) are apparently referred to by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram in their book The Deciphered Ind us Script and also cited by Witzel and Farmer in their article, I feel I should explain where I stand in the matter. Mackay's Seal 453 is broken off right in the middle and the front part of the animal is lost. Judging from its hind part, and comparing the seal with hundreds of similar ones found in the Harappan sites, one may say that the animal is most probably the 'unicorn' bull, or the bull with two short horns, or the humped bull (listed here in the order of statistical probability based on the frequency of bovine motifs on the seals). In any case the animal on the seal is clearly a bull and most certainly not a 'horse'. Mackay's Seal 453 is listed as No.2453 in the Concordances of Indus Inscriptions published by Parpola and Koskenniemi in 1973 and by me in 1977. These publications describe the animal, partly visible on the broken seal, in the following near-ident ical terms: Parpola and Koskenniemi (1973): code 93: "broken unidentified bovid". Mahadevan (1977): code 35: "uncertain animal (mostly bovine) in the field". Sometime early in September 1997, Dr. Rajaram wrote to me enclosing a copy of the published photograph (of the impression) of Mackay's Seal 453 and an artist's reconstruction which miraculously turns the half-bull into a full horse! Rajaram also said: "O ur recent findings about... the 'horse seal' (and the writing on it) seem to make Parpola's theory of Harappan Civilization as non-Vedic untenable. We have found other connections with the Vedic which Jha and I'll be presenting in our forthcoming book The Indus Script - A New Direction." I replied to Rajaram on September 11, 1997 as follows: "I am somewhat surprised you see a 'horse' in the Mackay Seal. The rear half of the animal looks like that of a unicorn in many other seals." The projected book has now been published by the authors with a more assertive title. The authors state (page 162): "A well-known Dravidianist tried to argue with Rajaram that the animal on the seal in question (Mackay 453) is not a horse but a unicorn bull." I take the reference to a "Dravidianist" as a compliment. But I do not see why Rajaram should have fought shy of mentioning my name, especially when my views have been on record from at least 1977. Tenali Raman, the famous court jester, once boasted to the king that he had done a fine fresco of a galloping horse on a wall of the palace. Having never suspected the jester of artistic abilities, the curious king went and had a look at the wall. He saw a splash vaguely resembling a horse tail (made earlier by Tenali Raman with a broom dipped in cowdung paste). The king asked, "But where is the horse?". Replied Tenali Raman: "Behind that wall, your Majesty!" I. Mahadevan Chennai ILLUSTRATION: K. RAJA {{{go to : http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1721/17211220.htm and have a good laugh!! MW}}} ------------------------------------ ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 14 13:23:27 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 00 13:23:27 +0000 Subject: Buddhists and Others Message-ID: <161227062607.23782.12727380414453794992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In recent exchanges over the theme of "Buddhists and Others" many contributors were greatly concerned to prove why and how Buddhism and Buddhists have cultivated their own identity and tradition which are quite disticnt from those of others (especially Hinduism and Hindus). But, as Ven. Thera tried to explain, this stance goes against the Buddhist spirit of inclusiveness. Extending the insight of Max Weber, Masao Abe in "Buddhism" (in Our Religions edited by Arvind Sharma 1993: 129) has suggested that Buddhism is an emissary type of religion (as opposed to the promissory or commissary type of missionary activity represented by Christianity and Islam respectively). Emissary missionary activity involves establishing a presence while minimizing the differences between one's own religion and the religion one encounters. S.Tilak _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Oct 14 20:30:48 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 00 21:30:48 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062619.23782.4431482592944734577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swaminathan Madhuresan" To: Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 3:34 PM Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems > --- "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: > > In any case Idangai/valngai has the merit of > > being self-referrents and hence better candidates for ethnicity - and not > > something imposed by "outsiders" to the system. > > I do not know how the Tamil classification, not found in any other > language groups, of "Idangai/valngai" will be "better candidates for > ethnicity". In India or elsewnhere in the world, it is not used in academia. > Does anyone advocate this? Dear Sir You still confuse the nature of ethnic identity to the extent on can talk of it. Ethnic identity of a group of people is not something fabricated by someone thousands of away (or even in situ) in a foreign language and who has no allegiance to their culture or tradition or aspirations or history. It comes through a peoples struggle for existence, in the heat and passion of political debates , in the toiling masses of fields and factories, in the sublimity of religious emotions , in the families and homes , in the need to make a livelihood by everyone, in their attachment to their land , landscape and culture . Above all , their group identity (or ethnic identity) is expressed by themselves in their own language after generations of trial and errors. Scholars can only study ethnic identities (if they so choose). Scholars cannot fabricate one for some people to whose society, culture and traditions, they have no allegiance whatsoever - which will come only by being an 'insider' BTW, I am not saying that idangai/valangai 'is' the ethnic identity of medieval south Indians. All I am saying you can look at ethnic identities only in their own terms and in their own words as expressed in literature or other historical documents. > By the way, there is nothing wrong in something good coming from > outside and using it. For example, human flight machines - though > "brihad-vimAna-shastrams" tell us that planes were invented in > India. We are not talking of material culture -real or imagined- but how a certain people defined themselves in their own language. If idangai/valangai is not good enough for you and only some Sanskrit word is good enough, that is not the issue. But you must respect dead people by calling them as they called themselves From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Oct 14 21:37:56 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 00 22:37:56 +0100 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062617.23782.7532262214748276347.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Ganesan" To: Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: Kinship systems > To know whether Gonds are Dravidians or not, > I suggest a starting point. In Sanskrit, DraviDa/dramiDa > is from "thamizh". It was Walter Elliot, a British civil > servant, who first noted the genetic relationship of the language > of Gonds with that Dravidian languages like Telugu, etc., > This happened several years even before Caldwell. > > Walter Elliot, Observations on the Language of the > Gonds and the identity of many of its terms with > Telugu, Tamil and Canarese, 1847, Jl. of the Asiatic > Society of Bengal. > > Regards, > N. Ganesan Many of the Gond language may have many similarities with Tamil or Kannada, but it does not say about how Gonds view themselves nor does it say anything about Gonds themselves You are making a massive mistake by confusing language or more to the point a "language family" - a linguistic construction- with a human community. >???From an empirical point, words are different from persons. They are different categories. From an empirical view, the languages and language groups are different from ethnicities, nationalities and other human communities. You have to look at the latter on their own terms and not as an extension of language or rather language groups From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Oct 14 17:27:14 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (shrikant bahulkar) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 00 22:57:14 +0530 Subject: BORI e-mail address Message-ID: <161227062612.23782.8574833376083648797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, The Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune has now a new e-mail address. Shrikant Bahulkar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 15 11:34:13 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 00 12:34:13 +0100 Subject: BORI e-mail address In-Reply-To: <39E89772.297D9E06@pn2.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227062621.23782.13585965439137318919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the old email address, bori at ip.eth.net, now obsolete? On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, shrikant bahulkar wrote: > Dear List members, > > The Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune has now a new e-mail > address. > > > > Shrikant Bahulkar > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 15 13:24:28 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 00 13:24:28 +0000 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062623.23782.1842191648053180659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: >>Many of the Gond language may have many similarities with Tamil or >>Kannada, but it does not say about how Gonds view >>themselves nor does it say anything about Gonds themselves As the Afghanis regard themselves as a lost tribe of Israel, does that make them Near-Eastern or Jewish? Their language still is E. Iranian and thus Indo-Iranian... And, they are Muslim. I am not sure if "iDaGkai/valaGkai" division based on how the jobs of certain castes will fit to describe the peoples who speak a language. Have these terms (non-existent even in Telugu) been applied to Punjabis or Assamese in literature? "In the Tamil country they are identified as right-hand castes and left-hand castes: the land holding castes are right and the trading castes are left. Although Telugu does not have exactly equivalent labels, the ideological separation between the caste groups follows the same lines as in Tamil Nadu. The bhaktas associated with the stories and legends of BP come prominently from the left-hand castes-artisans, merchants, washermen, potters, tanners, and the like; or they come from such socially marginal groups as burglars, hunters, prostitutes and pimps." (p. 10, "Siva's warriors, The Basava purana of Palkuriki Somanatha). In Indian society, the "left hand" is considered "dirty, out-of-the norm" etc., Eg., in the tantra practices. Seeing the list of groups, people may protest to be called "left-handed". Atleast to my mind, this "hand" division operates within a langauge group, but amongst tribes. But at a higher macro-level,nothing wrong to call folks as Punjabis, Tamils, and Assamese. Punjabis, like others can be grouped under religion also. In the literature on ancient India, one commonly encounters the terms like Aryans, Dravidians, and Mundas etc., Here Mundas refer to folks speaking any Munda language and so on. In that context, right hand or left hand divisions don't seem to work. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From benjy_fleming at ALTAVISTA.COM Mon Oct 16 00:43:28 2000 From: benjy_fleming at ALTAVISTA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 00 17:43:28 -0700 Subject: e-mail address Message-ID: <161227062631.23782.11372868168982158705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Does any one have contact information for a Debbra Saulter (I'm not quite sure of the spelling) I believe that she works out of Vienna or Hamburg. Thanks in advance. yours truly B. Fleming _______________________________________________________________________ Free Unlimited Internet Access! Try it now! http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/altavista/index.html _______________________________________________________________________ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 15 22:05:56 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 00 22:05:56 +0000 Subject: Hands Of Goddess Durga:Victory Over Evil Asur ? Message-ID: <161227062627.23782.10693844559428574966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "Goddess Ishwar" mentioned in your post is Inana/Ishtar. The Sumerian goddess, Inana is recorded for few 1000 years before the Assyrians, and it is probably derived from a presumed Nin-ana, 'Lady of Heaven'. Ishtar is her Akkadian name. She is usually depicted with wings, and two hands. May be it is the wings that you take to be four hands. Durga and Inana may be related, but long before 612 BC. Pl. refer to Ch. 14 in A. Parpola, Deciphering the Indus script, 1994. Regards, V. Iyer ----------------------------------- HYPOTHESIS: Memory Of An Ancient Migration From Babylon To Historic India. Tribal memory of a victory of forces of "good" over "evil". Is this hypothesis possible ? Yes or No ? SUMMARY DISCUSSION: By the year 612 BC, two centers of Assyrian power, Nineveh and Nimrod were destroyed. The oppressive power of the Assyrians for over a century that terrorized all of the Fertile-Crescent tribal nations including the two sister Hebrew kingdoms to the west was finally broken. This momentous victory was credited by modern archeologists and historians to an alliance between Nabopolassar, the founder of the neo-Babylonian empire, and Cyaxeres, the emerging Indo-European , proto-Persian tribal leader of the Medes (according the Greek Herodotus). This was a momentous event for all of the Babylonian tribes that participated in that war. This momentous event became a oral tribal memory for the Babylonians who composed Naboplassar's army . This victory symbolized (by the tribal king and his soldiers,) as a victory of "good" represented by the Babylonian war goddess, Goddess Ishwar, "against "evil", Asur (Assyrian) (not sure if I remember her name correctly from the NYC library archeology book where I remember the picture of the escavated Babylonian goddess statue with four hands). Stories were told and retold in campfires, and in temples, and celebrated in centuries following and became part of the oral tradition of surviving Babylonian tribes. Persia as a nation was beginning to emerge then with amalgamation of the older Elamite culture, and as the leadership of the emerging tribes of Media, and other surrounding Indo-European tribes who had stormed into this region as they did in the neighboring Indus Valley. Persian tribal power continued to increase, as the Babylonians went into decline in the following centuries. Then in 539 BC, Cyrus, The Persian, entered the gates of Babylon with his massive forces. He set free the Hebrew nation held in bondage there since 605 BC. This momentous "freedom" event became a part of the permanent memory of the Hebrews in the centuries following and were recorded in the documents that later became known as the Old Testaments, sacred to the Judeo/Christians of today. When Cyrus arrival in the outskirts, a few Babylonian tribes elected not to engage Cyrus in battle. Instead, they secretly escaped eastward toward a new potential homeland, along a little known trade route hugging the sea coast, toward Historic India. Upon arriving in India, slowly the tribe moved eastward, negotiating passage with the local Rajas, until they arriving in the Punjab area where they settled. Over the centuries, their war goddess remained a primary deity in the tribal memory. In the ensuing centuries, this goddess was remembered by her varied personifications as such emerged via the creativity of the folklore history of the tribal memories. Sometimes she personified as Katyani, with four hands, and tiger bahan. Sometimes she was Chandraghanta, four hands and bullock bahan. Then later, she also became, Kushmanda, with 8 hands and a tiger bahan. And finally, she became Durga, with her 10 hands and a lion bahan as the memory of a momentous victory of the forces of good over evil Asur! Bengali Goddess Durga Celebration is then a tribal memory of a victory of the forces of "good" over "evil" of a real battle long ago, in the ancient holi lands of the Fertile Crescent where Hebrews were held in bondage, and were set free by the Persian, Cyrus The Great ! The memory of the Hebrews survived in the Hebrew written "Old Testament" . The memory of the Babylonians did not survive in the ensuing centuries as the Babylondians disappeared as a separate nation. The tribal memory of a victory of forces of "good" over "evil" were brought to historic India by these peaceful remnant tribes of Babylon and fused into the Hindu religious memory in the "hands of Goddess Durga" in today's annual holy celebration of victory of the forces of "good" over "evil" in the worship of Goddess Durga in Hindu temples from Punjab to Bengal. Is this hypothesis possible ? Yes or No ? Avi Dey, Coordinator, NSW3 "A community based society for pursuit of harmony and life long learning" www.tein.org, click on NSW3 (under construction) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 15 22:11:46 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 00 22:11:46 +0000 Subject: Virtual Reality and Fantasy Message-ID: <161227062629.23782.10230245896252204786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As a member of that much derided group of engineers and scientists, it feels somewhat strange to mention this on this list. It seems to me that the internet bug has bit a number of our list members very badly. Points are being "proved" on all sides of all arguments, based on what is written on some website or the other. It doesn't take more than one person, with a computer and a little time on his hands, to generate an internet site of a moderate size. There seems to be absolutely no need to assume that a small group of people is somehow representative of entire populations. There is also an intrinsic contradiction in being skeptical because someone is prone to hyperbole, and simultaneously taking it absolutely seriously, when he or she lays claim to vast political influence through friends in high places. In such cases, it seems impossible to determine who is living a fantasy. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sun Oct 15 21:30:33 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 00 22:30:33 +0100 Subject: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062625.23782.15488222416759182506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "N. Ganesan" To: Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Kinship systems > "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: > >>Many of the Gond language may have many similarities with Tamil or > >>Kannada, but it does not say about how Gonds view > >>themselves nor does it say anything about Gonds themselves > > As the Afghanis regard themselves as a lost tribe of Israel, does > that make them Near-Eastern or Jewish? Their language still > is E. Iranian and thus Indo-Iranian... And, they are Muslim. There is no single 'Afghani's tribe or ethnicity or language. There are Pashtuns, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Tadjhiks, Balochs and various other tribal and ethnic groups deposited there by the tides of history, each having their own language, not all of them E.Iranian. Moreover if you ask a Pashtun, he will simply say he is a Pashtun, Beyond that no other classification will make sense to him. Flipping through a dozen Afghan sites, not a single one makes the claim that a lost tribe of Israel is resident in that Afghanistan. Can you point to a single site maintained by any ethnic group in Afghanistan which makes a serious claim about Israel connection?. But in any case we know the self-definition of different tribals/ethnicities in afghanistan: Pashto, Hazara, etc and nothing is based on any Isreali connection. > In the literature on ancient India, > one commonly encounters the terms like Aryans, > Dravidians, and Mundas etc., Here Mundas refer > to folks speaking any Munda language and so on. > In that context, right hand or left hand divisions > don't seem to work. So for any ethnic term to "work", it must find a reference in Sanskrit literature and not something by which a people refer to themselves? Sanskrit lierature also refers to Kiratas, Nishadas, Nagas and many other groups. No group can be placed geographically o linguistically with any precision. How "commonly" one encounters the term "dravida"? You are mentioning it as if such a term is strewn across the entire corpus of sanskrit literature in abundance. Why should Indian ethnography be so sanskrit-centric, that too inappropriately? Before you can ethnic division of Gonds as "dravidian", let us do a simple thought experiment. You are travelling in a bus, through the districts predominantly occupied by Gonds (you can tell us which districts are they) One man in a strange clothing and sits a next to you and tells in Gond language "Sir, I am going to sleep now. I have woked for the last three days with hardly any rest and I am very tired now. I must get down in 4 bus stops. Please wake me up when the 4th bus stop appraches". What would be his clothing which will unmistakably place him as a Gond and please provide the trasliteration into Gond what he asked. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 16 13:18:29 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 00 06:18:29 -0700 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062636.23782.18356431207011757521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Scholars can only study ethnic identities (if they so choose). Scholars >cannot fabricate one for some people to whose society, culture and >traditions, they have no allegiance whatsoever - which will come only by >being an 'insider' Scholars can come from anywhere; To study ethnic Gonds, it is not necessary to be born with Gondi, a Dravidian language/dialect as mother tongue. It is normal to get good observations when foreigners write about the details or viewpoints which may be missing in native narratives. A particular case is Indian history which will be lot poorer without Greek, Chinese or Arab visitors. >BTW, I am not saying that idangai/valangai 'is' the ethnic identity of >medieval south Indians. All I am saying you can look at ethnic identities >only in their own terms and in their own words as expressed in literature or >other historical documents. The problem is many ethnics incl. Gonds are pre-literate. No literature of their own or historical documents from their own hands exist. >If idangai/valangai is not good enough for you and only some Sanskrit word is >good enough, that is not the issue. But you must respect dead people by >calling them as they called themselves. As Historians say, history begins with writing. Many ethnic groups' dead people have left us with no writings at all. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From lasic at OEAW.AC.AT Mon Oct 16 08:10:28 2000 From: lasic at OEAW.AC.AT (Horst Lasic) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 00 09:10:28 +0100 Subject: e-mail address Message-ID: <161227062634.23782.9722481492558327514.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Until end of July 2001 Prof. Klimburg-Salter will stay at Berlin. Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin Wallotstrasse 19 14193 Berlin Tel.: 0049-30-89001-365 Fax: 0049-30-89001-300 e-mail: Klimburgsalter at wiko-berlin.de Regards, H.Lasic Benjamin Fleming wrote: > Dear list members, > > Does any one have contact information for a Debbra Saulter (I'm not quite sure of the spelling) I believe that she works out of Vienna or Hamburg. Thanks in advance. > yours truly > B. Fleming > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Free Unlimited Internet Access! Try it now! > http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/altavista/index.html > > _______________________________________________________________________ From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Oct 16 21:20:11 2000 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 00 14:20:11 -0700 Subject: Bh. Krishnamurti email address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062638.23782.16240435162001624032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Does anyone know if Prof. Bh. Krishnamurti is at Stanford this year and if so what his email address might be? Thanks, Chandan Narayan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "You couldn't fool your mother on the most foolingist day of your life, even if you had an electrified fooling machine. " From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 17 05:14:17 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 01:14:17 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's "answer" Message-ID: <161227062643.23782.14702290832975277599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yesterday I copied Iravatham's letter to the editor of FRONTLINE showing that he had the photo of Mackay 453 in hand in 1977; http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1721/17211220.htm As is well known by now, he published his computer 'enhanced' one, in 2000 turning a half-bull into a full horse. Here is Rajaram's answer, sent via a surrogate to the -- how shall I say -- very vociferous Indic Traditions list: ----------------------------------------------------------- Message: 22 Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 05:09:24 -0400 From: "Ram Narayanan" Subject: Rajaram responds Friends: Since Rajaram is not a member of this list, and serious charges have been made by Farmer against Rajaram in his posting wherein he had provided a link to Mahadevan's letter in Frontline, I sought Rajaram's views on the subject. This is what he says: QUOTE: I am a little saddened by Mahadevan's response, assuming that he really did write that letter. The copy I sent him in 1997 was exactly the same one that went into the book. He should also read our book and comment on it since he is one of our major sources. In any event none of this has any bearing on the decipherment, but part of the diversionary tactic to avoid facing the decipherment and its consequences. UNQUOTE. Ram Narayanan ------------------------------------------------------------ Now, he calls Iravatham Mahadevan a liar? Mahadevan, however, has written to Steve Farmer, several weeks BEFORE Rajaram's "reply", on Oct.1, 2000: "I confirm that Rajaram sent me only a copy of the published photograph (of the impression ) of Mackay Seal 453. He did not send me the computer enhancement which he must have done later. I have the book by Jha and Rajaram with me and I have checked it again." In other words, Rajaram's statement in the letter to R.Narayanan is *untrue*. I should like to add that in a semi-private letter (25 Jul 2000 17:34:46 PDT) Rajaram said that he looked at a copy of Mackay 453 in a reprint of Mackay's Volume (reprinted in 1978, by Indological Book Corporation, 2/7 Ansari Road, Daryaganj, New Delhi ? 110 002) in the Library of the Mythic Society at Bangalore, his home town. We have asked for a photocopy of that reprinted page from India: It is a scrisp and clear as Mackay's original, again none of the 'enhanced' fuzziness of Rajaram's picture. QED... Who is fudging, nay: lying here ? -- I may scan this page today or tomorrow and put it in the update section of my Rajaram file (scroll down to the end): http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/R&J.htm And, I like his 'diversionary tactic" : Clearly, the inscription of his "horse seal" mentioning "arko ha azva" correlates to a half-BULL! In short: his decipherments amount to some many 'hundred noisy crows' ... ============ ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Samparayath at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 17 16:17:25 2000 From: Samparayath at YAHOO.COM (Sam Parayath) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 17:17:25 +0100 Subject: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062645.23782.16806000526052691080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alternately, Indian origin of Semitic beliefs can be equally postulated. Please see detailed research on the origin of Jews at http://www.viewzone.com/matlock.html From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Tue Oct 17 16:47:54 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 17:47:54 +0100 Subject: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062647.23782.5973683452297446108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Indo-Aryans were promised frequent horse-rider miles if they travelled from the ancestral homeland to India via Jerusalem, Babylon, Hattusas instead of by direct route. They accepted this travel plan, and that explains most of Indian history. -arun gupta From youmar at YAHOO.IT Tue Oct 17 18:47:01 2000 From: youmar at YAHOO.IT (youri martini) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 20:47:01 +0200 Subject: Akbar's death Message-ID: <161227062649.23782.3129050907563048431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Gentlemen, I'm Italian (Sorry for my bad English) Student of modern History and I'm writing a degree thesis concerning movement of evangelization in Mughal India (XVI-XIX century). At the moment I study Akbar's death: somebody assert that he kill himself by poison, others killed by his son Salim.It's very difficult, almost impossible, to find in Italy documents and books about arguments interesting to me. Can You tell me, if it's possible, the real anedoct about Akbar's death? I'll happy to thank You Yours faithfully Youri Martini p.s. Do You know recent publications about Catholic Missions to Mughal India (probably printed in India) ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Oct 17 21:26:28 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 22:26:28 +0100 Subject: Afghans (Re: Kinship systems) Message-ID: <161227062651.23782.8574023763830970754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >> "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: >> As the Afghanis regard themselves as a lost tribe of Israel, does >> that make them Near-Eastern or Jewish? Their language still >> is E. Iranian and thus Indo-Iranian... And, they are Muslim. The book Makhzan-i-Afghani by Niamatullah (AD 1613) gives the account of Afghans being descended from the Jews. Historically his view is clearly incorrect, although there has been Jewish presence in Afghanistan since ancient times. Generally they were communities of Iranian Jews, with little connection with the Afghans. It is possible that some of the Khatri clans may be related to some of the Afghan tribes. Common Afghans today are largely unaware of their Hindu/Buddhist/Zoroastrian past. One of the earliest mentions of the term "Afghan" (avgANa) occurs in BRihat-samhitaa of Varaahamihira. Yashwant From samparayath at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 17 22:13:15 2000 From: samparayath at YAHOO.COM (Sam Parayath) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 00 23:13:15 +0100 Subject: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062653.23782.17245292453741539947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:47:54 +0100, Arun Gupta wrote: >The Indo-Aryans were promised frequent horse-rider miles if they travelled >from the ancestral homeland to India via Jerusalem, Babylon, Hattusas >instead of by direct route. > >They accepted this travel plan, and that explains most of Indian history. > Is there a source or reference that **scientifically** proves or substantiates this postulation - not blind superstitions to fit it and their repetitions sine die? Link shown on my earlier message (Research on the Origin of Jews by Matlock) discusses the time before Jews or Jerusalem. So why any would frequently go there where no civilization existed? One problem with today's field of Indology is the sandbag of the early Indologists. With all due respect, fact is fact: the early Indologists were no scientists compared to the scientists of Physics, Metallurgy, Math or Chemistry or any other field of science then or now. Their work was primarily Church centered. Hence Indologists' work on a scientific scale sounds as fiction compared to the works of a Laplace, Newton, or Einstein, wherein logic and reason are built on straightforward fundamental axioms such as 1+1 = 2 only, and not speculations or mere assertions. Such speculations are in every page of the 19th century Indology works. Many of these gusses we today take as scientifically proven facts. Not at all so! While reading their original (not quoted or condensed) versions, these monumental unscientific proclamations glare at the reader. As a trained scientist with 25 years of schooling + 25 years of scientific analytical expertise, I can't find any objective scientific spirit nor scientific history in these guesses. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 18 00:12:29 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 00:12:29 +0000 Subject: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062655.23782.647832631944377928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >proven facts. Not at all so! While reading their original (not quoted >or condensed) versions, these monumental unscientific proclamations >glare at the reader. As a trained scientist with 25 years of schooling >+ 25 years of scientific analytical expertise, I can't find any >objective scientific spirit nor scientific history in these guesses. Sam, Sam, Sam, you should really take a look at the files on the scope and rules of this list, available at the Indology website. Also do a search on the list archives for the keywords scientist, mathematician, physicist, engineer etc. With your educational qualifications and affiliations, you already paint yourself into a corner, irrespective of what you have to say. You should also be aware of a few trends. The top-ten list of people who are specially susceptible to the most unbelievable fantasies is populated almost exclusively by engineers and scientists. The top candidates among these pesky little creatures are of course the Indians, and among these Indians, those who have emigrated abroad. It is a cause of great worry (or should be) for education policy czars and czarinas in India, you know. Never mind that a recently dethroned czarina seems to have done precious little since 1968, to appropriately update Indian history education. And don't you know, anyone with an Indian name who questions the Western fantasies of a bygone era has suspicious motives with respect to contemporary Indian politics? By the way, as a topic of discussion, Indian politics is off-limits on this list, except when you want to talk about someone you don't like. As a person of Indian origin and as a scientist, you had better constantly clarify where you stand, in case you ever feel the need to refer to politics. If you know of a Westerner who so much as views some of these things sympathetically, he is clearly "New Age" and not "mainstream", even if he is a retired professor from a Canadian university, even if his works have been published by an American university press with a South Asia specialization, and even if he has published in standard journals. In a nutshell, watch the company you keep, lest you be judged. Take care, Vidyasankar ps. In case anyone is wondering about the last paragraph, I've got one name - Klaus K. Klostermaier. He has obviously sinned in some unknown manner, according to a newsmagazine that has emerged as the premier Indological journal in India. pps. Guess where the son of Irfan Habib, the Marxist Indian historian, is located now, and what he does for a living? Lo and behold, he lives in U.S.A., the country that successfully demonized Marxism, and works in elementary particle physics at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. Calls himself "Ubermensch" and also a "Shivaist", don't ask me why. Sounds like one of those people Indian educationists should be worried about. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 18 02:00:41 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 03:00:41 +0100 Subject: Afghan, Baloch and Brahui Message-ID: <161227062657.23782.15309032362105132679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr.H.W.Bellew(TheRacesofAfghanistan,1880,London)reported that Afghan names of Saraban, Sharjyan, and Khrishyun were the Rajput names of Suryaban, Surjan,and Krishan,and that Moslems adapted the last two to Sharf-ud-din and Kheyr-ud-din.Brahui languages is related to Dravidian group.What are the origins of the words Brahui and Baloch? Is Baloch a Dravidian name? Is there a demarcation line on the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan east of which there exists a Dravidian sub-stratum and west of which no Dravidian sub-stratum. Due to Dravidian connection of Brahui,it was proposed that there was Dravidian aggression on India from the region of Mediterranean Sea prior to Aryan aggression.Before the time of the patriarch Abraham the Hebrew (roughly 2000BC)the name of Hurrian governor of Jerusalem was Abdi- Kheba(servantofGoddess)and there were Hurrian guards protecting the temple of the Goddess sitting on the lion.Hindu worship of Lord Shiv and Goddess is identified as the Dravidian origin.Mr. Sathur Sekaran in his book "African Languages"(International Liguistic Center, Madras, 600024, India) showed relationship of Tamil to MiddleEast languages all way to Africa.Does this mean that the Shiv and Goddess worship, Vijayadashami and Tamil language were brought to India during Dravidian/Semitic aggression? Is the name Abdi-Kheba a Dravidian/Tamil name? Thanks. N.R.Joshi From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 18 04:08:13 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 04:08:13 +0000 Subject: Afghan, Baloch and Brahui Message-ID: <161227062659.23782.8539781036500694969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >showed relationship of Tamil to MiddleEast languages all way to Africa.Does >this mean that the Shiv and Goddess worship, Vijayadashami and Tamil >language were brought to India during Dravidian/Semitic aggression? Is the >name Abdi-Kheba a Dravidian/Tamil name? Thanks. N.R.Joshi Having gone all the way to the Middle East and Africa, why leave out ancient Egypt, the mother of all civilizations, as acknowledged by the Greeks themselves? The Egyptians who came to India never enslaved the Hebrews who came to India, for they were now in the land of uninterrupted communal harmony. Or else, they both came under the secularizing influence of ancient Tamil culture. And you know, Horus, the Egyptian falcon/sun god, healer of snakebites, could be the precursor of Garuda in Indian myth. Proto-Dravidian speakers converted word-initial h in Horus to k. In Tamil, karu means black, and of course, the ancient Indo-Aryans, who all looked like modern Western Europeans, would have none of that. So when the evil Indo-Aryans came along, they converted k to g, and voila (bring out the drumrolls here), you have Garut. Hop, skip and jump, and add the suffix -man => Garutman. From Garutman to Garuda is a piece of cake. Everybody who was not Indo-Aryan then became Dalit. To escape their oppression, the Dravidian people went to Southeast Asia, and took the Indian Garuda with them. Horus and Garuda are both connected to kingship. So even today, Indonesia has Garuda Air, while Egypt Air has Horus on its logo, and Air India has the Maharaja. This is a groundbreaking discovery, and if you don't agree with it, you don't know what you are missing. We can now try to relate Harappan signs to Egyptian hieroglyphs. Like adding namak and mirchi to taste, we can throw into this ancient kichri, the Phoenicians, the Babylonians, the Canaanites, the Hebrews, the Hittites, the Mittani, and the sundry adventurer who took a wrong turn somewhere. Then, via Aramaic, we can find some connection of Harappan signs to Kharoshti and Brahmi. Extremely fascinating, no? :-)) Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Wed Oct 18 06:18:45 2000 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 08:18:45 +0200 Subject: Akbar's death Message-ID: <161227062661.23782.2576529737782914307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Heras Institute of St. Xaviers College in Mumbai and the Institute for History of the Goa University (contact : Charles Borges [cborges at loyola.edu]) will be of help to you. Contact Chales Borges for precise e-mail address of the Heras Institute. If you get, please pass it on to me too. Best of luck. Greetings. A.Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK -----Message d'origine----- De: youri martini [mailto:youmar at YAHOO.IT] Date: mardi, 17. octobre 2000 20:47 ?: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Objet: Akbar's death Dear Gentlemen, I'm Italian (Sorry for my bad English) Student of modern History and I'm writing a degree thesis concerning movement of evangelization in Mughal India (XVI-XIX century). At the moment I study Akbar's death: somebody assert that he kill himself by poison, others killed by his son Salim.It's very difficult, almost impossible, to find in Italy documents and books about arguments interesting to me. Can You tell me, if it's possible, the real anedoct about Akbar's death? I'll happy to thank You Yours faithfully Youri Martini p.s. Do You know recent publications about Catholic Missions to Mughal India (probably printed in India) ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 18 15:47:01 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 08:47:01 -0700 Subject: Scientist-Indologists Message-ID: <161227062678.23782.10323945114040918128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Listers, It is common among Dravidianists to have scientific training: V. S. Rajam is a mathematician who works in computer industry nowadays wrote her dissertation comparing the two old grammars, the Tamil Tolkappiyam with Paniniyam. Peter Granda, David McAlpin, ... have moved to fields requiring scientific/computer/mgmt. skills. W.H.R. Rivers who studied ethnic Todas in the Nilgiri mountains who speak a Dravidian language is an M.D. A pioneer in neurophysiology psychiatry and so on. Jean Filliozat was an M.D., and so on. Interested in knowing about Indologists who had/have a scientific background & many thanks, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Oct 18 16:55:52 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 09:55:52 -0700 Subject: Akbar's death In-Reply-To: <20001017184701.1724.qmail@web1106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062680.23782.4366171783451156550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >My colleague, Prof. Aditya Behl provides the following information >on this matter. "Nur'ul Haqq Dihlavi's Zubdat ut tavarikh gives the answer as indigestion, followed by burning fever and diarrhea, with no medicine producing any effect, and with the emperor finally expiring on 26 October 1605. No suggestion of any foul play, and N's informant is Shaikh Farid Bukhari Murtaza Khan, the Mir Bakhshi or imperial paymaster, an eyewitness source." >Dear Gentlemen, > > >I'm Italian (Sorry for my bad English) Student of >modern History and I'm writing a degree thesis >concerning movement of evangelization in Mughal India >(XVI-XIX century). At the moment I study Akbar's >death: somebody assert that he kill himself by poison, >others killed by his son Salim.It's very difficult, >almost impossible, to find in Italy documents and >books about arguments interesting to me. >Can You tell me, if it's possible, the real anedoct >about Akbar's death? > > I'll happy to thank You > > >Yours faithfully >Youri Martini > >p.s. Do You know recent publications about Catholic >Missions to Mughal India (probably printed in India) > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it -- Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 18 09:17:52 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 10:17:52 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062663.23782.9417670555675794127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Swaminathan Madhuresan" To: Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 2:18 PM Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems > >Scholars can only study ethnic identities (if they so choose). Scholars > >cannot fabricate one for some people to whose society, culture and > >traditions, they have no allegiance whatsoever - which will come only by > >being an 'insider' > > Scholars can come from anywhere; To study ethnic Gonds, Simply by saying Gondi belongs to Dravidian group of Languages does not mean you have studied Gonds as an ethnic group it is not > necessary to be born with Gondi, a Dravidian language/dialect as > mother tongue. It is amazing that you call Gondi a dialect of "Dravidian" which refers to a linguistic group. Even though you are a language scholor , you are using words carelessly . Can you say with any honesty Gondi stands in relation to Tamil as Bhojpuri to Hindi It is normal to get good observations when foreigners > write about the details or viewpoints which may be missing in native > narratives. A particular case is Indian history which will be lot poorer > without Greek, Chinese or Arab visitors. > > >BTW, I am not saying that idangai/valangai 'is' the ethnic identity of > >medieval south Indians. All I am saying you can look at ethnic identities > >only in their own terms and in their own words as expressed in literature or > >other historical documents. > > The problem is many ethnics incl. Gonds are pre-literate. No literature > of their own or historical documents from their own hands exist. Just because hisorical documents don't exist for a particular geoup does not give you license to call them whatever you fancy. A good example is again India. Written documents exist in India only for the last 2500 years, ( Of course forgetting for a moment Indus writings, which no one has deciphered with any degree of confidence so far) but the caste or group consciouness predate this period. Much of vedic and post vedic literature was carried on orally as well as social groupings was carried on by memory which predates written documents > > >If idangai/valangai is not good enough for you and only some Sanskrit word is > > >good enough, that is not the issue. But you must respect dead people by > >calling them as they called themselves. > > As Historians say, history begins with writing. Many ethnic groups' dead > people > have left us with no writings at all. This is no license to fabricate ethnic identities for others. The untenability of "Dravidian" ethnic identity can be seen in your or Dr.Ganesan's ignorance of everyday Gondi speech. Two days back I asked Dr.Ganesan to translate into Gondi an everryday conversation if he has visited Gonds. But he has not yet come back which is most probably due to his inability to do it. I am not casting aspersions on anyone's scholastic abilitiers, but claining ethnic identity of Tamils and Gonds when even a language scholor of Tamil background does not know Gondi or cannot even distinguish Gonds from others. As was pointed out L.Fosse, ethnos comes from the Greek word which meant a community who have similar customs, outlook, institutions, etc. Above all they can communicate with each other on a daily basis and have a more meaningful dialogue. Ancient greeks considered themselves one ethnic community in which Romans or Persians were excluded. A Greek from Syracuse could take a boat and travel to any of the Greek cities in Greece itself or Asia Minor or Southern Italy or Black Sea ports including Crimea. He could talk and be understood without a problem people at any social level about the latest Olympic games or latest Delphic Oracle or the latest play from Thucydides. This was the sense in which they meant ethnos. All this is unlike you or Dr.Ganesan who claim ethnic identity with Gonds but will be struggling what to say if faced with real Gonds. If you live with Gonds , do you seriously believe they can discuss with you Thirukural or the latest group of singers in Madras Music Festivel. When you can't even understand Gondi what talk will you talk with them. Or take a modern ethnic group Latino. A latino from Havana - whether of Euopean features or Negro or Indian features- can easily travel in any bus in Cancun or Quito or Valparaiso or Beunos Aires.- and even travel to Cadiz or Barcelona without any problems in communicating with anyone He can talk to the fellow passengers on Maradona or dance Salsa or enjoy the pop music blaring out in the bus speakers. Can you say of this of you or Dr.Ganesan travelling to Gond districts? No. All this makes dravidian ethnic identity a farce and a joke. But it has to be. You are making what a logician calls categorical error. Dravidian is a linguistic category cioned in the 19th century, but you are transposing to another category viz human communities. This faulty thinking process has stunted the understanding of the people in India. As if to cover up this logical error, there is a high decibel usage of 'dravidian' - Gonds are Dravidian, Dravidian Kings, Dravidian poet Thiruvalluvar, Dravidians were defeated by Aryans and so on. and so forth. The western scholors are colluding in this error even though they won't allow such an error while talking about Westerners. When a western scholor talks of Scottish ethnicity, he means only Scottish, not English nor Irish not Italian. When someone talks of French ethnicity , nobody mixes them with Armenians or Spanish Only when you come to India any error can be committed because it sells. There are vested political interests which benefit by active collusion in a Maya From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Oct 18 18:21:46 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 11:21:46 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062685.23782.3136630748386753046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The unusual attraction of Indian engineers for pop-Hindu mythologized history (think of Rajaram, Kak, or many correspondents on this List) makes a lot of sense if we consider the current abysmal state of Indian scientific education. See the scathing cover story in the current issue of OUTLOOK, which among much else laments the "widespread plagiarism," "pervasive mediocrity," "mountain of junk papers, with a very low citation index," and undue emphasis on military technology that currently characterizes Indian science. There obviously are many top-flight Indian scientists around -- some quoted in the article -- but on the average what passes for scientific education in India is abysmally poor. The emphasis on narrow technological training, moreover (resulting, as the article puts it, in "an army of techno-coolies") means that most Indian engineers and scientists receive virtually no humanistic training at all. If scientific training is this mediocre in India, why would we expect first-rate thinking when Indian engineers turn to history. Please note that OUTLOOK -- which has the widest circulation of any magazine in India -- is on the whole a fairly nationalistic magazine. It certainly cannot be accused of India-bashing. You can read the article online at: http://www.outlookindia.com/20001023/coverstory.htm Steve Farmer Lars Martin Fosse: > I have said this before, but apparently it needs saying again: The only > thing we expect of engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc. with an > Indological itch is to do their homework. That is, read the relevant > research material on a given topic and state their critique in a civilized, > academic manner. There are engineers etc. who actually manage to do this. > Imagine the reverse situation: LMF reads two thin volumes on popular > physics (e.g. "Electrons for Everybody", "Physics Even Mom Could Do"), > thinks deeply about what he has learned for a couple of days and then > lashes out at seasoned scientists for not seeing what has become obvious to > him. Like: electrons are not what you think they are, they are quite to the > contrary... > [feel free to imagine an impossible theory]. > > I am sorry for the parody, but this is precisely the impression some > engineers etc. create on this list. I am afraid that even sensible > engineers etc. get lumped together with the all-too-imaginative-and-naive, > but there it is: this is the mechanism behind all prejudice. We are not > better than the rest of humankind. > From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 18 15:27:07 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 11:27:07 -0400 Subject: Text-critique of Hitopadesa Message-ID: <161227062673.23782.18038760046974560964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I apologize for asking here a question that is not about politics, and contains not personal attacks! Is there any work on the textual history of the Hitopadesa since the 1897 dissertation of Hertel? I do not refer to studies such as that of Sternbach on the parallels, but on the actual manuscripts, recensions, text lineages of the Sanskrit Hitopadesa. (My particular interest is the episode of Sunda and Upasunda not found in most editions such as those of Schelgel and Lassen, Peterson, etc, but extant in e.g. Kale. Johnson says that this episode seems stylistically different from the rest of the text, but does not expand his critique.) Any advice most welcome!! Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 18 11:08:20 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 12:08:20 +0100 Subject: BORI e-mail address (fwd) Message-ID: <161227062665.23782.2061944774504853427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received the following entirely cryptic message from someone at BORI. I guess the short answer is that bori1 at vsnl.net is the address to use. All the best, Dominik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:25:00 +0530 From: BORI To: ucgadkw Subject: Fw: Re: BORI e-mail address ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dominik Wujastyk" To: Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 5:04 PM Subject: Re: BORI e-mail address > Is the old email address, bori at ip.eth.net, now obsolete? > > On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, shrikant bahulkar wrote: > > > Dear List members, > > > > The Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune has now a new e-mail > > address. > > > > > > > > Shrikant Bahulkar > > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > > To Dominik Wujastyk Founder, Indology list. Sir, In above mentioned the e-mail address bori at ip.eth.net is the old address. But our running address is bori1 at vsnl.net. bori1 means Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute & one (1). This is the now obsolete address. Thanking you, Office Superintendent. BORI From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 18 15:36:18 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 15:36:18 +0000 Subject: SV: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062675.23782.15269406082128663295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >thing we expect of engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc. with an >Indological itch is to do their homework. That is, read the relevant No quarrel with that. >lashes out at seasoned scientists for not seeing what has become obvious to >him. Like: electrons are not what you think they are, they are quite to the >contrary... Sometimes, this works in science, but one has to be an Einstein to pull it off. Engineers do have to do a humanities requirement to graduate, so they read a little more than the equivalent of the "XYZ for Dummies" books that are popular nowadays. My feeling is that the problem is not so much the lack of required homework reading as with the expectation that theories in the humanities and social sciences should be scientific. >I am sorry for the parody, but this is precisely the impression some >engineers etc. create on this list. I am afraid that even sensible >engineers etc. get lumped together with the all-too-imaginative-and-naive, >but there it is: this is the mechanism behind all prejudice. Maybe so, but the prejudice does not look very good, when worn with pride on one's sleeves, on the Internet and in public print media. Besides, when a respected Indologist's prejudice extends to some of his own colleagues, it hampers objectivity, as I showed in at least one case. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Oct 18 15:08:21 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 16:08:21 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems (& Civility) In-Reply-To: <00b701c038e4$4b9b9400$14c5bcc3@tigertech> Message-ID: <161227062669.23782.4106126176823862192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This list is *not* the place for us to set tests for our colleagues. No conclusion can possibly be drawn from anyone's refusal to play such a game. Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK V.C.Vijayaraghavan writes: >Two days back I asked >Dr.Ganesan to translate into Gondi an everryday conversation if he has >visited Gonds. But he has not yet come back which is most probably due to >his inability to do it. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Oct 18 14:08:52 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 16:08:52 +0200 Subject: SV: Semitic origin of Hindu Vijayadashamee Message-ID: <161227062667.23782.2202285863346591442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan [SMTP:vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 18. oktober 2000 02:12: > Sam, Sam, Sam, you should really take a look at the files on > the scope and rules of this list, available at the Indology > website. Also do a search on the list archives for the > keywords scientist, mathematician, physicist, engineer etc. > With your educational qualifications and affiliations, you > already paint yourself into a corner, irrespective of what > you have to say. I have said this before, but apparently it needs saying again: The only thing we expect of engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc. with an Indological itch is to do their homework. That is, read the relevant research material on a given topic and state their critique in a civilized, academic manner. There are engineers etc. who actually manage to do this. Imagine the reverse situation: LMF reads two thin volumes on popular physics (e.g. "Electrons for Everybody", "Physics Even Mom Could Do"), thinks deeply about what he has learned for a couple of days and then lashes out at seasoned scientists for not seeing what has become obvious to him. Like: electrons are not what you think they are, they are quite to the contrary... [feel free to imagine an impossible theory]. I am sorry for the parody, but this is precisely the impression some engineers etc. create on this list. I am afraid that even sensible engineers etc. get lumped together with the all-too-imaginative-and-naive, but there it is: this is the mechanism behind all prejudice. We are not better than the rest of humankind. Friendly regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 18 17:14:34 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 18:14:34 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227062683.23782.10307057724127467557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "RM. Krishnan" To: > >Can you say of this of you or Dr.Ganesan travelling to Gond districts? No. > > > >All this makes dravidian ethnic identity a farce and a joke. But it has to > >be. You are making what a logician calls categorical error. Dravidian is a > >linguistic category cioned in the 19th century, but you are transposing to > >another category viz human communities. This faulty thinking process has > >stunted the understanding of the people in India. As if to cover up this > >logical error, there is a high decibel usage of 'dravidian' - Gonds are > >Dravidian, Dravidian Kings, Dravidian poet Thiruvalluvar, Dravidians were > >defeated by Aryans and so on. and so forth. > > Why do you want to deny the Dravidian commonness? What is wrong with that? There is always something common between two groups of people. I am denying any facts if you can ring anything forward. If there is a linguistic connection between two languages which can be called Dravidian I am not denying that too > > What would you say about Indian identity? Are you not an Indian? If one can > talk about an Indian community because you have few similar customs, > outlook, institutions, etc. with few others, then why can not one talk > about a Dravidian Identity? Dravidian identity belongs to languages, not people > > I can think of few customs which are common to Dravidians. > > 1. Wide prevalence of cross-cousin marriages > 2. Worship of Mother Goddess, especially Kali (=KoRRavai), Iyyanaar like > deities, etc > 3. Prevalence of Parisam (instead of dowry) among castes who have not > adopted Brahminized practices. > 4. Importance given to maternal uncle rather than father in many family > rites and rituals. > 5. Tradition of keeping a few weapons like spear, arivAl, trishul etc as a > family property handed over through generations and bringing them out for > showing on few solemn occasions (after polishing them, oiling them and > garlanding them) to show valor. It is all very good, but why do you want it Dravidian practice? After all there are about 500000 different literary and other documents in different media like palm-leaf, stone, copper-plate in Tamil from 2nd C BC to 17th C AD. None of them mentioned the word 'dravidian'. Nowhere Tiruvalluvar called himself dravidian, there are different 'Urais' i.e. commentaries on Titukkural by different persons like Parimelazhagar. But nobody mentions Tiruvalluvar as a 'Dravidian'. No Tamil kings or social groups are referred to as Dravidian in any of the thousands of stone inscriptions. So is the case with Kannada or Malayalam. There was no proclamation anywhere mentioning " We dravidians". If this "weness" was missing, then such a ethnic/tribal identity did not exist. In contrast, people referred to themselves as " We Periya nattar" or "We Bhumiputtirar" and different "we"s, but this is important-- no "we dravidian". > > There are many more of these practices. In the modern times, of course, > Brahminized practices have intruded so much that identifying older > Dravidian practices may prove to be difficult. ( For example, with the > Maharashtra practice of Ganesh Chadhurthi, now being propagated through-out > the south very much by the Hindutvadhis, I wonder what happens to our own > ThEr and theppam festivals in different places. After some time somebody > may say Ganesh Chadhurthi is Pan -Indian and Tamilians do not have any > religious festival on their own. It has already happened to the Karthikai > festival in Tamil Nadu. Now Deepavali which is a North Indian variation of > Karthikai) has become more important than Karthikai proper in Tamil Nadu. > Karthikai theepam is declining gradually. Why festivals? Even our own > Dravidian religions of Saivam and VaiNavam have been subsumed/ submerged > into the so-called Hindu religion/ SanAthana Dharma) . > > Still I am completely at a loss to see your response. Have you not watched > or at least read about tribal practices even now exhibited, despite the > onslaught of pan-Indian ones? There are so many common things prevalent in > the four southern states and also few regions in MP, Orissa, and Bihar > (where other Dravidian tribes are residing even now.) You are calling them Dravidian tribes, but they themselves don't use the word and not even aware of it. In fact even South Indian were not aware that till Padiri Caldwell introduced the term. Even then there were riots against the Reverend's theories. That was how the tamils received 'Dravidian ethnics' theory- with hostility. But then in Colonial-Colonized relationship such objections were overruled > > > >Only when you come to India any error can be committed because it sells. > >There are vested political interests which benefit by active collusion in a > >Maya > > > Who is in Maya? Those who use a linguistic term to describe different tribes/communities without even asking their permission are in maya From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 18 22:48:05 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 18:48:05 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062688.23782.8718772988028123925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members I am not planning to present a grand theory, but here are some thoughts which may be in general useful for resolving some of the recent issues on this list. We will take a recent example. How did Britain become a world power in 1700-1900 period? No hard feelings about white man, colonialism or divide and rule. It is simple: Britain became a world power by putting to practical use, the mountains of knowledge accumulated by Royal society. Britain evolved an administrative system of politics, justice, application of science, and used it to its own advantage. But by 1900 those principles that Britain built so painstakingly lost their relevance due to various socio-political reasons. Politically colonialism lost its relevance. Economically capitalism lost its relevance. (The whole wide world of academics and general public still do not understand that "capitalism" was long gone with advance of middle class, and it is now replaced by "management" or "managementism if you like it that way"). Silently since year 1900, two management scientists in US (Henry Fayol and F.W.Taylor) brought out a productivity revolution which effectively made US a superpower in 20th century. Every body felt bad about British colonialism and flow of money to England. But here is a comic parallel: I really hate buying a new Pentium every three years! This is worse inspite of the fact that the machine helps me. US made money without invading a single territory for its own occupation in a democratic way. Now coming to Indian context: It is possible that ancient India was occupied by many different smaller villages having different cultures. But the "brahminic technology" of organizing the society was definitely more robust than what the individual villages had; just as British "technology" was the best in 1700-1900 or US technology has been the best since 1900. I am not in favor of the brahminic system. But my question is what was the alternative available for the ancient India? We have records of ancient India before birth of Buddha. Buddhistic principle of renouncing armies was definitely not a solution. When you impose a more efficient and powerful system, then other weaker systems get dominated with no respect for "endangered species" and "endangered cultures". Today nobody in India wears a dhoti to office, except in traditional Tamil Nadu. By the way has any one in US figured out yet whether the American Indians must be mainstreamed or left to live their traditional lives? Or both? These are difficult questions to answer. When India got independence it was already 50 years since Fayol/Taylor; but nobody in India ever heard of them! India had the age old caste system, and continued the 150 year old British system, both obsolete for administration purposes for a modern society. Enormous money was pumped into public sector which is still using the traditonal "green paper" filing system. India had a choice, but it was wasted. Management guru Peter F Drucker said in 1972 that India is not underdeveloped, it is undermanaged. All I can say about why India failed, is to repeat what Prof Drucker said: A tree always rots from top. You guess the rest. Many other smaller malaises people complain daily on this list are merely by-products of this larger one. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 00:35:15 2000 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 20:35:15 -0400 Subject: Afghan, Baloch and Brahui Message-ID: <161227062692.23782.16201385509677044399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And Mr. Jinnah's descendents today are Parsi, at least culturally. Some Rajputs are descendents of Zoroastrians. If it is applicable to Jinnah's forefathers, they have gone back to their roots. Rustam ... >It is not improbable. Mohammad Ali Jinnah, founder of Pakistan, was >son of Jinnahbhai Poonja (and grandson of Poonjabhai, a Bhatia Rajput who >converted when he married into Ismaili Khojas). He created his Muslim- >sounding last name by taking part of his father's first name (actually by >dropping Bhai, when he was a student in London). I've read that his >father's first name was really pronounced JheeNaaBhai, a common Gujarati >name. Officially Jinnah's family now traces its origin from Iran. > >Incidentally it is well known that many muslims with last name >Khan, are converts from Rajputs. Some very specific examples are >known. > >Yashwant _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Wed Oct 18 19:41:45 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 20:41:45 +0100 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062687.23782.17014573649314685150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have noted the two postings about the engineers here . I have read the rules where the engineers are specially mentioned or put it in other words, made their presence felt in the positive or negative sense, it does not matter . I fully respect people having interest in the literature, and this group is meant for them . The conflict comes when these ( literature people ) go beyond their field and start claiming things as facts, when the facts have to be ascertained by the knowledge of other fields . For example, the date of the Mahabharata . The knowledge of astronomy was one way to estimate this. The attempts were being made to estimate the date of the Rig Veda by the presence of the word - ayas to mean iron , in this Veda . The opinions of the engineers were expressed in this regard . I hope every one ought to understand that engineers are not the bunch of people who claim to know every thing . When it comes to their own field, certainly they speak out . Thanks. Anand M. Sharan From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Oct 18 15:17:53 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 20:47:53 +0530 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems In-Reply-To: <00b701c038e4$4b9b9400$14c5bcc3@tigertech> Message-ID: <161227062671.23782.14858494725745856313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:17 AM 10/18/00 +0100, you wrote: >Just because hisorical documents don't exist for a particular geoup does not >give you license to call them whatever you fancy. A good example is again >India. Written documents exist in India only for the last 2500 years, ( Of >course forgetting for a moment Indus writings, which no one has deciphered >with any degree of confidence so far) but the caste or group consciouness >predate this period. Can you please give evidence/reference to show that caste or group consciousness predate this period? I thought it was all tribal consciousness in 500 BC. I didn't know that caste existed by then. >Much of vedic and post vedic literature was carried on >orally as well as social groupings was carried on by memory which predates >written documents > > >This is no license to fabricate ethnic identities for others. The >untenability of "Dravidian" ethnic identity can be seen in your or >Dr.Ganesan's ignorance of everyday Gondi speech. Two days back I asked >Dr.Ganesan to translate into Gondi an everryday conversation if he has >visited Gonds. But he has not yet come back which is most probably due to >his inability to do it. I am not casting aspersions on anyone's scholastic >abilitiers, but claining ethnic identity of Tamils and Gonds when even a >language scholor of Tamil background does not know Gondi or cannot even >distinguish Gonds from others. > >As was pointed out L.Fosse, ethnos comes from the Greek word which meant a >community who have similar customs, outlook, institutions, etc. Above all >they can communicate with each other on a daily basis and have a more >meaningful dialogue. Ancient greeks considered themselves one ethnic >community in which Romans or Persians were excluded. A Greek from Syracuse >could take a boat and travel to any of the Greek cities in Greece itself or >Asia Minor or Southern Italy or Black Sea ports including Crimea. He could >talk and be understood without a problem people at any social level about >the latest Olympic games or latest Delphic Oracle or the latest play from >Thucydides. This was the sense in which they meant ethnos. All this is >unlike you or Dr.Ganesan who claim ethnic identity with Gonds but will be >struggling what to say if faced with real Gonds. If you live with Gonds , do >you seriously believe they can discuss with you Thirukural or the latest >group of singers in Madras Music Festivel. When you can't even understand >Gondi what talk will you talk with them. > > >Or take a modern ethnic group Latino. A latino from Havana - whether of >Euopean features or Negro or Indian features- can easily travel in any bus >in Cancun or Quito or Valparaiso or Beunos Aires.- and even travel to Cadiz >or Barcelona without any problems in communicating with anyone He can talk >to the fellow passengers on Maradona or dance Salsa or enjoy the pop music >blaring out in the bus speakers. > >Can you say of this of you or Dr.Ganesan travelling to Gond districts? No. > >All this makes dravidian ethnic identity a farce and a joke. But it has to >be. You are making what a logician calls categorical error. Dravidian is a >linguistic category cioned in the 19th century, but you are transposing to >another category viz human communities. This faulty thinking process has >stunted the understanding of the people in India. As if to cover up this >logical error, there is a high decibel usage of 'dravidian' - Gonds are >Dravidian, Dravidian Kings, Dravidian poet Thiruvalluvar, Dravidians were >defeated by Aryans and so on. and so forth. Why do you want to deny the Dravidian commonness? What is wrong with that? I think you are reading between the lines and going overboard in your anxiety to deny the Dravidian identity. Your condescending tone above clearly indicates so. What would you say about Indian identity? Are you not an Indian? If one can talk about an Indian community because you have few similar customs, outlook, institutions, etc. with few others, then why can not one talk about a Dravidian Identity? I can think of few customs which are common to Dravidians. 1. Wide prevalence of cross-cousin marriages 2. Worship of Mother Goddess, especially Kali (=KoRRavai), Iyyanaar like deities, etc 3. Prevalence of Parisam (instead of dowry) among castes who have not adopted Brahminized practices. 4. Importance given to maternal uncle rather than father in many family rites and rituals. 5. Tradition of keeping a few weapons like spear, arivAl, trishul etc as a family property handed over through generations and bringing them out for showing on few solemn occasions (after polishing them, oiling them and garlanding them) to show valor. There are many more of these practices. In the modern times, of course, Brahminized practices have intruded so much that identifying older Dravidian practices may prove to be difficult. ( For example, with the Maharashtra practice of Ganesh Chadhurthi, now being propagated through-out the south very much by the Hindutvadhis, I wonder what happens to our own ThEr and theppam festivals in different places. After some time somebody may say Ganesh Chadhurthi is Pan -Indian and Tamilians do not have any religious festival on their own. It has already happened to the Karthikai festival in Tamil Nadu. Now Deepavali which is a North Indian variation of Karthikai) has become more important than Karthikai proper in Tamil Nadu. Karthikai theepam is declining gradually. Why festivals? Even our own Dravidian religions of Saivam and VaiNavam have been subsumed/ submerged into the so-called Hindu religion/ SanAthana Dharma) . Still I am completely at a loss to see your response. Have you not watched or at least read about tribal practices even now exhibited, despite the onslaught of pan-Indian ones? There are so many common things prevalent in the four southern states and also few regions in MP, Orissa, and Bihar (where other Dravidian tribes are residing even now.) What are you driving at? You say we are only Indian and not Dravidian? Will not a Dutchman or a German feel some commonality among themselves? A German is 'Deutch' proper, has a few Germanic features sharing with Nordics, Danes, Dutch, Friscian, English and others, with still broader European attributes and some scanty Indo-European commonalities. Likewise, I feel I am a Tamil, have a few common Dravidian features, with some Indian attributes, and some stray Asian Commonalities. >The western scholors are colluding in this error even though they won't >allow such an error while talking about Westerners. When a western scholor >talks of Scottish ethnicity, he means only Scottish, not English nor Irish >not Italian. When someone talks of French ethnicity , nobody mixes them with >Armenians or Spanish > >Only when you come to India any error can be committed because it sells. >There are vested political interests which benefit by active collusion in a >Maya Who is in Maya? With Regards, RM.Krishnan From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Oct 19 05:09:17 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 00 22:09:17 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062699.23782.14201814257983004698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote (about the recent OUTLOOK article on Indian science): > The emphasis on narrow technological training, > >moreover (resulting, as the article puts it, in "an army of > >techno-coolies") means that most Indian engineers and scientists > >receive virtually no humanistic training at all. Vidyasankar Sundaresan responded: > Steve, this is a completely unwarranted leap in reasoning. I say this in all > possible friendliness - you are just so full of it. The article in Outlook > says zilch about the humanities requirements, or even the science courses at > the teaching level. It only talks about the higher level research in science > and technology. This is my conclusion, Vidyasankar, not based on the article but on recent discussions I've had with Indian grad students in engineering and the sciences. One guy I talked to the other day getting his Ph.D. (in physics?) at Stanford - really intelligent - admitted to me that all he had *ever* had in school was scientific training. This, of course, is a problem with US science grad students today as well: There is an old comedy routine about engineers going to "More Science High School" in the US. Anyway, my friend told me that he knew nothing at all about ancient India until he heard Subhash Kak (an engineer, of course) speak at Stanford, several weeks before! His first question for me: What did I think of the "revolutionary" studies David Frawley?! > If you think Indian > science students do not get sufficient humanistic training, let me let you > in on a secret. On the average, Indian humanities students get very little > quality training. In the process, humanistic teaching for science and > engineering programs receives the lowest priority, not because the > scientists are blocking it, but because the humanists often couldn't care > less. Or because they don't have the funding. But you are only proving my point for me: What the OUTLOOK article refers to as "techno-coolies" are, in fact, among those who fall hardest for the Hindutva mythologizing of history, in part because they have no meaningful humanistic training at all. > ps. What exactly do you mean by pop-Hindu? Is there anything specially > "Hindu" about it? As one interested in comparative studies, would you call > the to-do about the The Bible Code pop-Judaic? Isn't it even pop-Christian? Yes, I think that "pop-Christian" and similar terms are appropriate labels for people who fall for the "Bible Code" nonsense (hidden meanings in the old texts, etc.). Nice ring to them, really. :^) Steve From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Thu Oct 19 00:02:15 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 01:02:15 +0100 Subject: Afghan, Baloch and Brahui Message-ID: <161227062690.23782.12170897573015106673.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:00:41 +0100, Narayan R. Joshi wrote: >Dr.H.W.Bellew(TheRacesofAfghanistan,1880,London)reported that Afghan names >of Saraban, Sharjyan, and Khrishyun were the Rajput names of Suryaban, >Surjan,and Krishan,and that Moslems adapted the last two to Sharf-ud-din >and Kheyr-ud-din. It is not improbable. Mohammad Ali Jinnah, founder of Pakistan, was son of Jinnahbhai Poonja (and grandson of Poonjabhai, a Bhatia Rajput who converted when he married into Ismaili Khojas). He created his Muslim- sounding last name by taking part of his father's first name (actually by dropping Bhai, when he was a student in London). I've read that his father's first name was really pronounced JheeNaaBhai, a common Gujarati name. Officially Jinnah's family now traces its origin from Iran. Incidentally it is well known that many muslims with last name Khan, are converts from Rajputs. Some very specific examples are known. Yashwant From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 03:43:00 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 03:43:00 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062694.23782.15621879997917374227.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >There obviously are many top-flight Indian scientists around -- some quoted >in the article -- but on the average what passes for scientific education >in India is abysmally poor. But your theory doesn't work if you take into consideration the numbers involved. It is said that there're atleast 100,000 engineers passing out of schools every year in India. Accepted that quite a few of the engineering colleges are ill equipped and inadequately staffed. But even if that rules out 90% of the total turnout as poor in quality, we still have 10,000 engineers to contend with - those who have passed out of good schools with a high level of training. I doubt if any single country in Europe produces 10,000 engineers a year. So this 10,000 engineers is still a substantial group who can effect a considerable change in whichever area they put their minds to work in. >If scientific training is this mediocre in India, why would we expect >first-rate thinking when Indian engineers turn to history. "first rate thinking"? In Indian history? C'mon where does serious thinking figure in Indian history? It is only a game of imagination and speculation guided by political ideology. >Please note that OUTLOOK -- which has the widest circulation of >any magazine in India -- is on the whole a fairly nationalistic >magazine. It certainly cannot be accused of India-bashing. India Today would contest your claim about OUTLOOK having the widest circulation in India. Outlook is a leftist magazine too, but to give it due credit it is managed and staffed by a much smarter bunch than usual variety of leftists in India - who're basically tame puppies of China. And readers accusing it of being anti-national is a regular feature in its "letters to the editor" section, which the magazine surprisingly shows little hesitation in publishing! Infact it seems to take pride in it! Needless to say, this can happen only in "secular"/"democratic" India! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 03:59:13 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 03:59:13 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062696.23782.8687015506772300404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The unusual attraction of Indian engineers for pop-Hindu >mythologized history (think of Rajaram, Kak, or many >correspondents on this List) makes a lot of sense if we consider No, it makes no more sense than the attraction of Sir Arthur Keith of the Royal College of Surgeons, London, and Grafton Smith, fellow of the Royal Society, for the Piltdown man "fossil". It makes no more sense than the endorsement of the Piltdown "finds" by Sir Arthur Smith Woodward of the British Museum's department of Natural History. In all this hoopla over one person who is rather insignificant in the larger picture, do not shove the original British Piltdown hoax under the carpet. All those people received the best science education and honors of their times, and a good "classical" education too. They were not "trader's apprentices" who rose in their professions. It makes no more sense than the attraction of Israeli mathematician, Eliyahu Rips, for finding hidden codes in the Torah, and the American reporter, Michael Drosnin, for writing a bestselling book on it, called The Bible Code (Simon & Schuster). Israel is not particularly noted for mediocrity in its education system. I presume Mr. Drosnin had a good humanistic education in the USA. The folks at Simon & Schuster undeniably had the best training. They spotted a bestseller and successfully marketed it to gullible millions. I have also met sufficient numbers of scientists in the US, who are willing to concede that there is something special about the "codes" in the Torah. Unsurprisingly, this attitude has a strong correlation with their personal religious beliefs and background. When it comes to religion, nation, culture and tradition, people are often quite happy to throw logic out of the window, or they at least willingly suspend their disbelief, often with unfortunate effects. Besides, if according to you, most of these producers of pop-Hindu fantasies are expatriate Indian scientists and engineers, do remember that Western governments, universities and businesses thought that their bachelor's degrees from India were good enough to pass muster. They continue to do so, going by the numbers of Indian students admitted to graduate programs in the West. All these guys that bother you so much got their graduate degrees in science and engineering in good old USA, and to a lesser extent, from European universities. The problem with Indian science is not in the teaching of it at an undergraduate level, but in the higher level research that is being done in India. CSIR, NCL and other such bureaucratic research organizations have little to do with undergraduate science education. There are other bureaucratic megaliths around to take care of that, like the University Grants Commission (UGC) and the National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT), with an entirely different set of problems on their hands. I don't claim that all is fine in India. But there is a deeper problem behind it. >the current abysmal state of Indian scientific education. See the >scathing cover story in the current issue of OUTLOOK, which among >much else laments the "widespread plagiarism," "pervasive >mediocrity," "mountain of junk papers, with a very low citation >index," and undue emphasis on military technology that currently Read the very next phrase in the article after the word plagiarism. When scientists in India complain of widespread plagiarism and denial of credit, they are referring to the practice of their head honchos in appropriating the results of and claiming credit for other people's work. How else does the CEO of a big lab get his name on every paper and every patent that is ever produced from that lab? This attitude percolates down - the head of a smaller group denies credit to his subordinate scientist, that scientist denies credit to his students and assistants. Now *that* is a pervasive problem in India. >characterizes Indian science. There obviously are many top-flight >Indian scientists around -- some quoted in the article -- but on >the average what passes for scientific education in India is >abysmally poor. The emphasis on narrow technological training, >moreover (resulting, as the article puts it, in "an army of >techno-coolies") means that most Indian engineers and scientists >receive virtually no humanistic training at all. Steve, this is a completely unwarranted leap in reasoning. I say this in all possible friendliness - you are just so full of it. The article in Outlook says zilch about the humanities requirements, or even the science courses at the teaching level. It only talks about the higher level research in science and technology. In case you didn't notice, there is a difference between teaching and research. The fault lies with the Indian educationists who have not integrated the two in their myopic and bureaucratic vision. If you want to know the real problem with the humanistic training obtained by Indian scientists, it is with those who specialize in the humanities. I am sorry to say this, but there is NOBODY of any caliber getting into the humanities in India today. There are whole mountains of economic, social, political and cultural reasons for why Indians avoid specializing in those fields. After they move out of India, these reasons get attenuated, and their interest picks up again. If you think Indian science students do not get sufficient humanistic training, let me let you in on a secret. On the average, Indian humanities students get very little quality training. In the process, humanistic teaching for science and engineering programs receives the lowest priority, not because the scientists are blocking it, but because the humanists often couldn't care less. Simply put, the HSS courses that are taught to Indian science students are ill-designed, if they are not outdated. A course in psychology, for example, fills an entire semester with nothing but Freud. Which may be fine if you are going to specialize in psychology, but not if you have to learn math and physics and chemistry too. An introductory course in philosophy deals with nobody other than Hegel, often taught by someone who knows very little indeed about Hegel. In Indian education, philosophy died after Hegel. Sociology and anthropology are dominated by Marxist ideologues. There is hardly any discussion of Geertz or Dumont or Marriott or Stein. Field studies, according to those who make decisions in Indian education, have not progressed beyond Margaret Mead. So it is not that Indian science education provides for no humanistic education. It does, but it provides an extremely lopsided and outdated version of it. That is the reason why some people keep flogging dead horses. They grew up surrounded by the stench of the rotting corpses. The privileged distance enjoyed by people outside India may be good to spot certain things. However, the telescope is sometimes the wrong instrument to use, you know. If you want to comment about some of the real problems of contemporary India, use the microscope instead. If people here don't like the spectacle of a few scientists putting their feet in their mouths when it comes to Indological issues, at least do us the courtesy of not pontificating on things that you in turn know little about. Do your homework right, and don't jump to conclusions. Vidyasankar ps. What exactly do you mean by pop-Hindu? Is there anything specially "Hindu" about it? As one interested in comparative studies, would you call the to-do about the The Bible Code pop-Judaic? Isn't it even pop-Christian? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 19 04:07:56 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 05:07:56 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062697.23782.5994692580521796665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few comments : The better Outlook article is http://www.outlookindia.com/20001023/ coverstoryA.htm. But I may be biased because I know the author; he was Director of the IIT where I was a student. Note that Professor Indiresan stood up against overbearing Members of Parliament who demanded that the IITs lower their academic standards. --- Science education is a poor step-sister of technological education in India. No matter what a child's talents may be, where its interests may lie, the middle class Indian parent asks "How will you make a living doing XYZ ?". Indology, archaeology, linguistics etc. would not make the grade. The best and brightest are virtually driven into engineering and medical professions. Emigration to the US and economic success here opens some space for some of such people to pick up former loves; but as noted on this board, not very well. The Humanities education in India is very poor in teaching techno-people anything about India. It is dominated by Western humanities. India's "secular" humanities establishment has little interest in people learning about India because it might impair "secularism". The humanities establishment is no better than the scientific laboratory establishment that is excoriated in the Outlook articles. I will bet that India produces more Ph.D.s in English than in all Indian languages combined. Indians know something about India in spite of their education. As people realize this, a certain paranoia about Western scholarship sets in because of the Western emphasis on their education in India. --- The cited article has a "do only relevant science" outlook that, to my mind, is totally discredited. It is the converse of the Japanese lab. that required its people to work on original stuff for so many hours of the week. Where good science is being done, the article dubs it as "profligate". Criticism of "brahminical insistence of theory" is quite misplaced -- theory is one area where a lot of funding is not needed, and research can run free of all the constraints mentioned in the Outlook articles. Where the institutional culture is good, India's "techno-coolies" have proud achievements. India's civilian space program's budget for two decades from inception to first satellite launch was equivalent to the cost of four-six Jumbo Jets. Oh, and most Indians support India's nuclear program. -arun gupta From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 06:04:56 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 06:04:56 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062701.23782.14127919928031297397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > engineering programs receives the lowest priority, not because the > > scientists are blocking it, but because the humanists often couldn't >care > > less. > >Or because they don't have the funding. But you are only proving They have sufficient funding for a select few to become big icons, and to lead lavish lifestyles far beyond the reach of the average Indian. Then every side fights with every other, hurling labels like communal, secular, pseudo-secular, fascist, leftist, casteist, what have you. As with everything in Indian politics, it soon becomes one personality cult against another. Still, it is just plain irritating to see judgements being passed from outside over the nature of Indian education. Let me just say this, you are not making any friends with such sweeping generalizations. The army of techno-coolies knows what it is doing in technical fields, if not in humanistic fields. Besides, has anyone wondered why the general priorities of Indian education are so skewed that it produces a vast army that Indian industry and economy cannot support, and must therefore export to the West? In an earlier interview with Frontline, Romila Thapar made a statement about how in most Indian institutions, history was only being talked about according to the mindset of fifty years ago. What she calls state of the art research is being done only in a few places, it seems. For a person of her position and influence, with all those sinecure positions, over some three or four decades, what stopped her from taking the initiative to update educational policy on this score? All one hears about her nowadays is the unfairness in dropping her from a couple of central government appointed boards. But what was she doing before then? Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 11:07:38 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 07:07:38 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062703.23782.17487548906833525961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please check this. http://www.pgs.ca/pages/nl/pa9824b.htm And this.. http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/1991/may91/may91sharma.html There is also a conflict of interest because Bhabha belonged to private sector (Tata) at the same time he had responsibility for public sector. Neglect of Indian universities led to concentration of power and lack of competition. In US every university goes on radio to advertize and compete with others, what is called "social competition". For the space shuttle if NASA had used the Appollo type decentralized model it would have come up with a much sleeker, safer and economic alternative to present day high cost one. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 12:12:39 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 07:12:39 -0500 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062706.23782.16385505023301424709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gosh, I cant believe people took time to type out such longish responses ! Remember those horrendous euro-pop songs :) Regards, Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 19 14:37:02 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 07:37:02 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062714.23782.2531060953343739490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- NAYAK Anand wrote: > Thanks, Bijoy Misra, for your comments. The sudden flooding of Indian > engineers (or is it the sudde opening in the Western marketting needs ?) has > created a lot of ill feelings. In Germany there is a slogan running now : > Kinder, nicht Inder (More children please, not Indians). I guess these are > the initial reactions of fear. The substantial esteem will follow I hope. > Greetings. A. Nayak Indians have done it in USA and Silicon Valley, and Germany should not be different, I hope. The humanities training in tech/science colleges is very poor; Also, the library facilities. A (historical) linguistics course and one on comparative Indian literature, with good portions from Sanskrit and Tamil classics, something like a Norton anthology will be of sure help. People like Rajaram portray Zvelebil as a Christian missionary! If we conduct surveys from people on the streets, the results for Dravidian languages may be that they are coming from Sanskrit. Since a majority of HindutvavAdis claim that drav. studies is a Christian effort, should the Indological discipline abandon its Dravidian linguistics studies?? Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Oct 19 15:28:27 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 08:28:27 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062718.23782.695971570894963149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra writes: > I don't know you personally. But that you could interview > one student in Stanford and then flood the net with opinion > on the quality of scientists and engineers of Indian origin > does not say much about your own scientific thinking. Pardon > me for saying this, but your absurd generalizations does sound > extremely irresponsible and you must rethink your empiricism. I didn't "interview one student in Stanford." I've talked to dozens of Indian engineers and graduate students about the issue. Moreover, the discussion didn't begin with my "absurd generalizations" about education in India, but with the scathing recent review of Indian science in OUTLOOK, seen at: http://www.outlookindia.com/20001023/coverstory.htm All I added were my comments on the links between the Hindu mythologizing of history and Indian engineers (in the US and elsewhere). The nonsense that Kak, Rajaram, et al. dish out could not come from anyone even with a moderate training in philology or ancient history in general. Misra writes: > Do interview any of the > new engineers who are flooding the US, who even do not come from > the quality schools. Do observe the respect they gain at the > American workplace. They do not have a research resume with them, > but certainly carry a head of objective thinking to deal with > rational logic of computing. I know many of them. The question in this forum is whether being a engineer qualifies you to speak on Indological issues, especially when you come from a system that mistakes narrow technological training for a broader education. This is a problem in US schools as well, but at a lesser level. It is much less of a problem in most European school systems. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 19 12:30:55 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 08:30:55 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <39EE81F4.DB855719@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227062708.23782.15895013742902087800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve (Farmer), I don't know you personally. But that you could interview one student in Stanford and then flood the net with opinion on the quality of scientists and engineers of Indian origin does not say much about your own scientific thinking. Pardon me for saying this, but your absurd generalizations does sound extremely irresponsible and you must rethink your empiricism. I have been a teacher in the US for more than twenty years and have brushed through school systems with two children of my own. Person to person the training in mathematics and sciences in high schools in India would be superior to such training in public schools in the US. It has not to do with the resources, but the quality of the teachers. That the children do not rise up to continue career of research comes from the deep economic handicap the family faces immediately. It's changing though. Do interview any of the new engineers who are flooding the US, who even do not come from the quality schools. Do observe the respect they gain at the American workplace. They do not have a research resume with them, but certainly carry a head of objective thinking to deal with rational logic of computing. The keyword is "objective". Hope you would contemplate rather than getting angry. To make sweeping generalizations from places of importance is not helpful to your colleagues. Unfortunately it conotes an attitude that better be not displayed in public. Hope you would rethink and engage in a more meaningful dialog. Best regards, Bijoy Misra On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > I wrote (about the recent OUTLOOK article on Indian science): > > > The emphasis on narrow technological training, > > >moreover (resulting, as the article puts it, in "an army of > > >techno-coolies") means that most Indian engineers and scientists > > >receive virtually no humanistic training at all. > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan responded: > > > Steve, this is a completely unwarranted leap in reasoning. I say this in all > > possible friendliness - you are just so full of it. The article in Outlook > > says zilch about the humanities requirements, or even the science courses at > > the teaching level. It only talks about the higher level research in science > > and technology. > > This is my conclusion, Vidyasankar, not based on the article but > on recent discussions I've had with Indian grad students in > engineering and the sciences. One guy I talked to the other day > getting his Ph.D. (in physics?) at Stanford - really intelligent > - admitted to me that all he had *ever* had in school was > scientific training. This, of course, is a problem with US > science grad students today as well: There is an old comedy > routine about engineers going to "More Science High School" in > the US. Anyway, my friend told me that he knew nothing at all > about ancient India until he heard Subhash Kak (an engineer, of > course) speak at Stanford, several weeks before! His first > question for me: What did I think of the "revolutionary" studies > David Frawley?! > > > If you think Indian > > science students do not get sufficient humanistic training, let me let you > > in on a secret. On the average, Indian humanities students get very little > > quality training. In the process, humanistic teaching for science and > > engineering programs receives the lowest priority, not because the > > scientists are blocking it, but because the humanists often couldn't care > > less. > > Or because they don't have the funding. But you are only proving > my point for me: What the OUTLOOK article refers to as > "techno-coolies" are, in fact, among those who fall hardest for > the Hindutva mythologizing of history, in part because they have > no meaningful humanistic training at all. > > > ps. What exactly do you mean by pop-Hindu? Is there anything specially > > "Hindu" about it? As one interested in comparative studies, would you call > > the to-do about the The Bible Code pop-Judaic? Isn't it even pop-Christian? > > Yes, I think that "pop-Christian" and similar terms are > appropriate labels for people who fall for the "Bible Code" > nonsense (hidden meanings in the old texts, etc.). Nice ring to > them, really. :^) > > Steve > From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 19 12:34:47 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 08:34:47 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <39EDEA39.65B8E705@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227062710.23782.3718229505093827773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > The unusual attraction of Indian engineers for pop-Hindu > mythologized history (think of Rajaram, Kak, or many > correspondents on this List) makes a lot of sense if we consider > the current abysmal state of Indian scientific education...... > on the average what passes for scientific education in India is > abysmally poor. I'm not too sure what Steve Farmer's agenda is, but these remarks seem unnecessarily provocative, inflammatory and incredibly over-generalized (given that they seem to be based on one article in a magazine and some anecdotal discussions with a handful of students). So much for all the harangues to which we have been subjected on this list about the importance of doing thorough research on a topic before voicing an opinion. Edwin Bryant. From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Thu Oct 19 17:14:35 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 10:14:35 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062731.23782.13992848971528233982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By the day, you are growing shriller and shriller... miraculously, your literality is turning out to be deafening orality ;-) Anyway, thanks for the minute... Lord Macaulay, if alive, would bind you to his heart with heaps of stool, oops, hoops of steel. -Srini. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 19 16:32:14 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 12:32:14 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062725.23782.16091390695469780672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> From: NAYAK Anand >The sudden flooding of Indian engineers (or is it the sudde opening in the >Western marketting >needs ?) has created a lot of ill feelings. Lack of planning on the part of US or Germany is their problem, caused by late marriages, high divorce rate, high cost of education. If manpower imports are stopped, software work will fly abroad via satellite networks. "Free trade" is meant for solving these problems quickly. I think scholars can use logic and look for macro-economic or other macro-level social and political factors that are causing the situation, instead of "feeling" the events at individual level. Prof Steve Farmer I am writing with direct knowledge of a major resarch industry. Majority of scientists believe in Gita and do what their bosses say. But lack of competition facilitates "some" people without integrity to reach the top and even subdue policies at higher level which may even imply losses in several millions of dollars. That is the under- management I am talking about. It is not a problem at worker level. It is true, students don't get proper training. The cause is again: when industry doesn't need them in the first place, how can any one expect a feedback from industry to university what kind of training is needed. Most Indians including myself come to US to find a different work ethic, (as Vivekananda said America will be the karma bhoomi). Immigrants adjust to new ethic in a matter of or weeks or months. I am not talking of exceptions here. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Thu Oct 19 17:11:11 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 13:11:11 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062729.23782.7177280319658097557.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/19/00 2:05:50 AM, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: >The army of techno-coolies This is a complicated topic, but I would just like to point out that this phrase mischaracterizes the nature of the Indians with technical training in the United States--their creativity, their entrepreneurial abilities, and their success up to the CEO level. They have even acquired cachet. I am also detecting a whiff of the attitude that it is the humanities liberal arts education that is the "real" education, the social sciences are suspect, and technology and engineering are merely vocational school. (As we sit in our frayed tweeds reading in the newspaper about another successfull IPO.) Having said this, I should add that I agree with all of Dominik's and Lars's postings regarding the background required to make a meaningful contribution to this list. >Besides, has anyone wondered why the general priorities >of Indian education are so skewed that it produces a vast army that Indian >industry and economy cannot support, and must therefore export to the West? Bad for India as a whole; just dandy for the ruling elite? All the best, Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Thu Oct 19 13:31:59 2000 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 15:31:59 +0200 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062712.23782.7452307813809076893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks, Bijoy Misra, for your comments. The sudden flooding of Indian engineers (or is it the sudde opening in the Western marketting needs ?) has created a lot of ill feelings. In Germany there is a slogan running now : Kinder, nicht Inder (More children please, not Indians). I guess these are the initial reactions of fear. The substantial esteem will follow I hope. Greetings. A. Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK -----Message d'origine----- De: Bijoy Misra [mailto:bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] Date: jeudi, 19. octobre 2000 14:31 ?: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Objet: Re: "Science" in India Dear Steve (Farmer), I don't know you personally. But that you could interview one student in Stanford and then flood the net with opinion on the quality of scientists and engineers of Indian origin does not say much about your own scientific thinking. Pardon me for saying this, but your absurd generalizations does sound extremely irresponsible and you must rethink your empiricism. I have been a teacher in the US for more than twenty years and have brushed through school systems with two children of my own. Person to person the training in mathematics and sciences in high schools in India would be superior to such training in public schools in the US. It has not to do with the resources, but the quality of the teachers. That the children do not rise up to continue career of research comes from the deep economic handicap the family faces immediately. It's changing though. Do interview any of the new engineers who are flooding the US, who even do not come from the quality schools. Do observe the respect they gain at the American workplace. They do not have a research resume with them, but certainly carry a head of objective thinking to deal with rational logic of computing. The keyword is "objective". Hope you would contemplate rather than getting angry. To make sweeping generalizations from places of importance is not helpful to your colleagues. Unfortunately it conotes an attitude that better be not displayed in public. Hope you would rethink and engage in a more meaningful dialog. Best regards, Bijoy Misra On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > I wrote (about the recent OUTLOOK article on Indian science): > > > The emphasis on narrow technological training, > > >moreover (resulting, as the article puts it, in "an army of > > >techno-coolies") means that most Indian engineers and scientists > > >receive virtually no humanistic training at all. > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan responded: > > > Steve, this is a completely unwarranted leap in reasoning. I say this in all > > possible friendliness - you are just so full of it. The article in Outlook > > says zilch about the humanities requirements, or even the science courses at > > the teaching level. It only talks about the higher level research in science > > and technology. > > This is my conclusion, Vidyasankar, not based on the article but > on recent discussions I've had with Indian grad students in > engineering and the sciences. One guy I talked to the other day > getting his Ph.D. (in physics?) at Stanford - really intelligent > - admitted to me that all he had *ever* had in school was > scientific training. This, of course, is a problem with US > science grad students today as well: There is an old comedy > routine about engineers going to "More Science High School" in > the US. Anyway, my friend told me that he knew nothing at all > about ancient India until he heard Subhash Kak (an engineer, of > course) speak at Stanford, several weeks before! His first > question for me: What did I think of the "revolutionary" studies > David Frawley?! > > > If you think Indian > > science students do not get sufficient humanistic training, let me let you > > in on a secret. On the average, Indian humanities students get very little > > quality training. In the process, humanistic teaching for science and > > engineering programs receives the lowest priority, not because the > > scientists are blocking it, but because the humanists often couldn't care > > less. > > Or because they don't have the funding. But you are only proving > my point for me: What the OUTLOOK article refers to as > "techno-coolies" are, in fact, among those who fall hardest for > the Hindutva mythologizing of history, in part because they have > no meaningful humanistic training at all. > > > ps. What exactly do you mean by pop-Hindu? Is there anything specially > > "Hindu" about it? As one interested in comparative studies, would you call > > the to-do about the The Bible Code pop-Judaic? Isn't it even pop-Christian? > > Yes, I think that "pop-Christian" and similar terms are > appropriate labels for people who fall for the "Bible Code" > nonsense (hidden meanings in the old texts, etc.). Nice ring to > them, really. :^) > > Steve > From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Oct 19 13:59:16 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 15:59:16 +0200 Subject: SV: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062727.23782.12755300129326428638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NAYAK Anand [SMTP:anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH] skrev 19. oktober 2000 15:32: > Thanks, Bijoy Misra, for your comments. The sudden flooding of Indian > engineers (or is it the sudde opening in the Western marketting needs ?) has > created a lot of ill feelings. In Germany there is a slogan running now : > Kinder, nicht Inder (More children please, not Indians). I guess these are > the initial reactions of fear. The substantial esteem will follow I hope. I think the slogan "Kinder nicht Inder" must be seen in a wider context. This is not simply a matter of Germans resenting Indian competition, it has to do with populist and right-wing resentment of migrants in general, and you will find parallel sentiments in other European countries than Germany. Norway, my own country, is in a similar jam as Germany, and here too we have a debate about whether we should "import" - almost inevitably from Asia - new staff or if other labour market policies should be used to increase the number of available workers of various kinds. The situation is ridiculous because immigration started precisely because we needed more workers, and now we need more workers again at the same time as everybody else. So there are not that many options. The situation proves that racism is not only bad, it is impractical. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Oct 19 16:05:42 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 17:05:42 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062720.23782.16322005183871280535.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I agree with Steve Farmer that the educational system is so abysmal that it does not produce much originality or creativity. The Indian record in humanistic subjects is much like their performance in Olympics. In subjects like Indology or linguistics not many creative people arounnd. I once mentioned in soc.culture tamil that it is odd that the foremot Tamil linguistics scholor should come from Czech republic where the knowledge of Tamil is not excatly widespread, and not from Tamilnadu itself with a population of 70 million. The only response I got was that this situation was due to the machinations of Tamil Brahmins. The main reasons as I see it for the relative sparsenes of creativity in India is due to 1. Learning is by rote 2. There is a cultural and intelectual dependece on the west. Hence whatever theories come from the western countries is applied mechanically without studying it critically. Since many humanistic subjects like Indology, Anthropology, history, etc have origins in the west, there has been no creative absorption of these concepts by Indian universities and students 3. because of this severe dependence on west for inputs in theories, agenda, methology, data collection and interpretation, students are not encouraged to seek primary data. 4. The Indian parents generally put pressure on their sons and daughters to seek secure and what they consider prestigious jobs and not something which they like From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Thu Oct 19 16:06:18 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 17:06:18 +0100 Subject: QUALIFICATIONS TO EXPRESS ON THIS INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062722.23782.4837005977806267874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: "I know many of them. The question in this forum is whether being a engineer qualifies you to speak on Indological issues, especially when you come from a system that mistakes narrow technological training for a broader education. This is a problem in US schools as well, but at a lesser level. It is much less of a problem in most European school systems." There have been many experts on Indology who have been proven wrong, especially on the Aryan Invasion Theory or The Asian Migration Theory when the statements were not backed up by evidences . There are many think that they know about India by reading books which do not contain facts . First thing is to know India first hand otherwise forming opinions based on incomplete survey does not lead any one any where . For example, if one reads literature sold at the check out counters of the grocery stores in U.S.A., the opinion so formed would be totally false . So, the best thing is not to make generalized statements about any profession . I understand your frustrations. Thanks Anand M. Sharan From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Oct 20 00:04:47 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 20:04:47 -0400 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227062745.23782.9638207364173762611.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I came across Dr. Witzel describing talageri's style of argumentation as hair splitting and an example of cultural conditioning. Isnt there something something universal about hair splitting, Isnt it what logic, science is all about why make a stereotype out of it. My turn to make stereotypes: Judging from above It looks like many westerners are still stuck at the stage of artsy stereotyping when it comes to understanding things indian. And another one: Westernes have no stomach for detached argument and are poor debaters. They soon start getting emotional and accusing their opppnent of heresy, question his authority rather than his statements. Afterall witchhunts, inquisitions, mccarthyism and planned genocide have happened fairly recently in their past. Perhaps they have been conditioned into thinking that drawing attention to terrors like the churches authority, the stretching rack, or peer ridicule is a good way of winning an argument. witness steve farmers style of arguing: He brands his opponents as beleivers in flying saucers, wooly mammoth pilots and such like. I have spent a couple of years as a school kid in the US and always recall the level of conformity and peer awareness required even at a young age in the US. Maybe this behaviour is a hangover from a recent oppressive european past and seeps over into academia. By the way I would like to acknowledge that steve farmers investigation of the alleged horse seal has benifited all. As for witzels and farmers article on frontline they are as entitled to such journalistic pursuits as Rajaram is. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Oct 19 15:03:42 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 20:33:42 +0530 Subject: iIIT vis-a-vis MIT Message-ID: <161227062716.23782.18219799261448314214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The purpose of the following question is to ascertain whether IIT products employed in US are underpaid/under-employed. The question is:Where does an IIT graduate stand in salary,work responsibility, etc with respect to a product of say MIT or Caltech,at the beginning of career and say 10 years later? (The question is independent of the Outrlook article or its aftermath.) Rajesh Kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231 fax 5754640 hm + 91 11 576 0281 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www} From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 20 02:11:05 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 21:11:05 -0500 Subject: Aryan Migration Theory: Fabricating Literary Evidence Message-ID: <161227062741.23782.8518448287171103282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishals compilation of Michael Witzels "nirukta like" explanations: http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/AMT.html Regards, Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 20 01:44:43 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 21:44:43 -0400 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062739.23782.9330631139982123692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/2/2000 1:20:16 AM Central Daylight Time, I wrote: > George Hart (1976), in his analysis of the shared elements in the use of > suggestion in Sanskrit and Tamil, stated, "Sanskrit did not borrow from > Tamil > because clearly the Sanskrit writers were not acquainted with the Tamil > tradition" but from the mahArASTri Prakit tradition which, in turn, came > from > a Deccani megalithic tradition. However, Siegfried Lienhard (1984) > attributes > more direct influence by Tamil on the Prakrit tradition when she says, " > hAla's reign coincided with the flowering of Tamil caGkam lyrical poetry > which, having already reached perfection in form and content, quite possibly > exercised an influence on creative writing in maharASTra." I have now found a virtual smoking gun pointing to a direct connection between Tamil and Prakrit traditions. The eighth century commentary on the grammar of Tamil love poetry, kaLaviyal urai (iRaiyan2Ar akapporuL viLakkam), mentions two texts as having been named after the persons who caused them to be created. One of them is "iLantiraiyam" and the other is "cAtavAkan2am". The first one was named after the king "iLantiraiyan" of Kanchi. The second one was named after one "sAtavAhana". Both works are lost now. (kaLaviyal urai lists tolkAppiyam as an example of a text named after the author.) >?From the names of other works listed, it is clear that the texts referred to are Tamil texts. This means that "cAtavAkan2am" sponsored by "sAtavAhana" was a Tamil text. The fact that this grammar of Classical love poetry mentions a Tamil work sponsored by sAtavAhana is very significant. S. Lienhard says that hAla was often called sAtavAhana. Also the famous poet bANa included sAtavAhana (hAla) among the poets he admired and said that hAla "created an (artistically) immortal, polished collection (kOza) of single-stanza poems (subhASita)". Moreover, hAla's sattasaI, has at least 40 poems by hAla himself. (to be continued) From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Oct 20 01:46:45 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 21:46:45 -0400 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062737.23782.6757107087780202829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This will preclude any possibility of sattasaI being referred to by kaLaviyal which states clearly that the text was named after the one who "caused the text to be created" and (not the one who "created" it) implying no role of an author or compiler for sAtavAhana. I do not know if this information has ever been discussed by anybody in analyzing the relationship between Classical Tamil literature on the one hand and the Prakrit and Sanskrit literature on the other. If hAla, the sAtavAhana king, patronized Tamil, we can conclude (with Siegfried Lienhard) that Tamil poetry had a direct influence on Prakrit poetry. Thus the sAtavAhana kings not only issued bilingual coins in Prakrit and Tamil but seem to have sponsored Tamil literature as well. The positive attitude of sAtavAhanas towards Tamil is also supported by cilappatkAram where iLaGkO portrays them as aiding the Tamil king in his expedition to the Himalayas. According to George Hart, the technique of suggestion used in the Classical Tamil poems "fits the dhvani theory of Sanskrit poetry, propounded best by Anandavardhana in his dhvanyAloka, far better than most of the Sanskrit poems that alankArikas sought to analyze by it." Siegfried Lienhard said, "dhvani seems to have been used by Prakrit poets, who either developed the technique of the unexpressed themselves or borrowed it from classical poetry in Tamil". Given the sAtavAhana patronage of Tamil literature, we can now more conclusively say that dhvani was more probably a direct contribution by Tamil to Indo-Aryan literature. Finally, this shows clearly the influence of Tamil outside the traditional Tamil region. I should thank Lars whose posting led me to realize the value of the kaLaviyal urai information for deciding if Tamil is to be considered as a Classical language. Regards S. Palaniappan From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Oct 19 22:16:58 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 23:16:58 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062732.23782.6379756059652098279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One should note that while OIT advocates may be spouting nonsense, there is plenty of Indian AIT advocates who are guilty of the same -- they make extrapolations not justified by the evidence. Simply because they are advocates of the "correct theory" does not make their scholarship any less shoddy. Poor education in the humanities makes people fall for that nonsense too. One should also note that while OIT might have a "fascist" political agenda in India, where fascism here is defined as a form of nationalism that excludes some of the people resident in that country, there are plenty of Indian AITers with a fascist agenda as well. The construction of modern day politics as a continuation of an Aryan-Dravidian struggle should offend people as much as the "historical Hindu-Muslim dispute". One could also make a strong case that the civil war in Sri Lanka in which people are actually being killed is in part the contention between two fascist views of history of the Tamils and Sinhalese. One hopes that the scholars here would endeavor to educate the Indian public in these matters, as in the Frontline article. -arun gupta From tawady at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 19 22:44:41 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 00 23:44:41 +0100 Subject: Fascism in Sri Lanka (Re: "Science" in India) Message-ID: <161227062734.23782.17100350161599874964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:16:58 +0100, Arun Gupta wrote: >One could also make a strong case that the civil war in Sri Lanka in which >people are actually being killed is in part the contention between two >fascist views of history of the Tamils and Sinhalese. > Buddhist Fundamentalism and Minority Identities in Sri Lanka Eds., Tessa J. Bartholomeusz and Chandra R. De Silva, State University of New York Press, Albany, NY, 1998 Journal Review The Role of Indigenous Culture and Evolving Development Strategies: Is there a Right Policy Mix for Sri Lanka? P Mendis (1994), Marga Quarterly Journal, Volume 13(1) (Colombo: Marga Institute). Journal Review ?Who is he, what is he doing?? Religious Rhetoric and Performances in Sri Lanka during R. Premadasa?s Presidency (1989-1993) By Josine van de Horst (Amsterdam: VU University Press, 1995) Vol 2, Sri Lanka Series in the Humanities and Social Sciences. Charred Lullabies: Chapters in an Anthropography of Violence E. Valentine Daniel Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey ISBN: 0691027730 For book reviews of the above try http://www.sangam.org/BOOKS/BookIndex.htm some other books of interest are S.S Misra's _Ethnicity, Conflict and Security Crisis in Sri Lanka_, Kalinga Press, 1995 Dayan Jayatilleke's _Sri Lanka: The Travails of a Democracy, Unfinished War, Protracted Crisis_, Delhi, Vikas, 1995. Dagmar Hellman Rajanayagam _The Tamil Tigers: Armed Struggle for Identity_, Stuttgart, Franz Steiner Verlag, 1994, Rajan Hoole and others _The Broken Palmyrah: The Tamil Crisis in Sri lanka_, Claremont, SL Studies Institute, 1990, C. Manogaran and B Paffenberger eds., _The Sri Lanka Tamils: Ethnicity and Identity_, Boulder, Westview, 1994, Sumantra Bose, _States, Nations, Sovereignty: India, Sri Lanka and the Tamil Eelam Movement_ ,1994, K. M. de Silva, _Managing Ethnic Tensions in Multi-Ethnic Societies, Sri Lanka 1880-1985_, Lanham, University Press of America, 1986 K.M. de Silva, ed, _Sri Lanka: Problems of Governance_, New Delhi, Kornak, 1993. Stanley Tambiah's work on Sri Lanka's ethnic fatricide provides a background to this issue which has caused a political turmoil there since the early eighties although this conflict goes back to ancient times as depicted in the war between Dattagamini and Ellora in the rather lesser known classic: "Mahavamsa." (See when fascism starts in South Asia long before Mussolini :-) ) Author: Tambiah, Stanley Jeyaraja, 1929-. Title: Buddhism betrayed? : religion, politics, and violence in Sri Lanka Pub. Info.: Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1992. Phy Descript: xix, 203 p., [6] p. of plates : ill. ; 23 cm. Series Info.: Monograph of the World Institute for Development Economics Research (WIDER) of the United Nations University. ISBN: 0226789497 (cloth : alk. paper). 0226789500 (paper : alk. paper). LCCN: 91038944. Author: Tambiah, Stanley Jeyaraja, 1929-. Title: Sri Lanka, ethnic fratricide and the dismantling of democracy Pub. Info.: Chicago : University of Chicago Press, c1986. Phy Descript: xi, 198 p. ; 23 cm. ISBN: 0226789519 :. 0226789527 (pbk.). LCCN: 85024598. and many more on this sordid saga if you care to look :-( Raveen From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 20 10:56:32 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 03:56:32 -0700 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062754.23782.14727714054513786010.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > I have now found a virtual smoking gun pointing to a > direct connection > between Tamil and Prakrit traditions. > One of them is "iLantiraiyam" and the > other is "cAtavAkan2am". > The first one was named after the king > "iLantiraiyan" of Kanchi. The second > one was named after one "sAtavAhana". Both works are > lost now. (kaLaviyal > urai lists tolkAppiyam as an example of a text named > after the author.) Although I don't know if it significantly alters your conclusions, I wonder if you have read the paper titled " zAtavAhana kings in ancient Tamilnadu" by A Kamatchinathan of Annamalai University. (I have misplaced my copy but I remember faxing a copy to someone on the list). The paper proposes a Munda origin for the Satavahanas and argues for Satavahana origin of certain Tamil kings like the atiyamAn's of takaTUr. Support for this theory is also adduced by way of certain representative Munda loans in Tamil incl such commonplace words like that for "tender coconut". Explanation for commissioning of works such as the "cAtavAkanam" and for issuing of Tamil bilingual coin etc is then developed as a natural corollary. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 20 05:07:49 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 06:07:49 +0100 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062743.23782.3031570972223738053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >to be ascertained by the knowledge of other fields . For example, the date >of the Mahabharata . The knowledge of astronomy was one way to estimate However, knowledge of astronomy has to be supplemented by a keen understanding of different temporal layers in the MBh, varying readings in different sources of manuscripts, errors in transmission, etc., things which the textual scholars know well. The two groups can work together, if only they could put aside their prejudices about each other. If people want to say, "I'm prejudiced, and I'm proud of it", there can be no common ground. Vidyasankar From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 20 10:59:13 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 06:59:13 -0400 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227062756.23782.7156813590502844809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A.B. Keith made a good observation about east and west. He said that the constant struggles Europeans had to face in daily life (average life expectancy was 35 years) made them a little more closer to reality, whereas the Indians were behind the protective wall of Himalayas and had time to develop a culture with imagination (wording is mine). Put it in terms of mANDUkyA upaniSat, westerners have a little more of vizva (peer awareness etc), whereas easterners have a little more of taijasA (you know the examples). Again, this is not branding or stereo-typing. Every one has all three qualities vizva, taijasa and prajna in different proportions, and it also depends on person to person. There is a need to understand our own nature, and treat it as an asset instead of liability. We can make productive use of it instead of taking it to extreme (extreme realism or extreme imagination), or criticising others' nature because it doesn't suit us. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 20 15:31:29 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 08:31:29 -0700 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062762.23782.10504337036137328580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "Anand M. Sharan" wrote: > In this work , I have established that the Santhals who speak a language > closer to Brahui came from Baluchistan, presently in Pakistan A point is, may be small, Brahui is Dravidian whereas Santali in Eastern India is Austroasiatic that came from further East. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zysk at HUM.KU.DK Fri Oct 20 09:18:47 2000 From: zysk at HUM.KU.DK (Kenneth Zysk) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 10:18:47 +0100 Subject: Address Requested Message-ID: <161227062747.23782.8223397536458872881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am seeking the address of a scholar in India: Prof. Prafulla Misra at Utkal University in Orissa. I should like to have the snail mail address and fax, if possible. Many thanks in advance. Ken Zysk -- Kenneth Zysk Department of Asian Studies University of Copenhagen Ph: +45 3532 8832 Leifsgade 33,5 Fax: +45 3532 8835 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk If mail address fails use: zysk at spam.hum.ku.dk From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Oct 20 14:30:54 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 10:30:54 -0400 Subject: Fascism in Sri Lanka Message-ID: <161227062760.23782.17265430421592233795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There were a couple of small errors in Raveen Satukurunathan's useful bibliographic list, which may delay people in locating the books: S. S. Misra's book is Ethnic Conflict and Security Crisis in Sri Lanka, not Ethnicity, Conflict.... Manogaran and Paffenberger's is The Sri Lankan Tamils..., not The Sri Lanka Tamils. (No, I don't suspiciously check out everyone's citations to trip them up; I was just making sure we had everything.) Sincerely, Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Independence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Oct 20 17:44:01 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 10:44:01 -0700 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227062766.23782.13168335521093525528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajarashi Banerjee writes: > witness steve farmers [sic] style of arguing: > He brands his opponents as beleivers [sic] in flying saucers, wooly [sic] > mammoth pilots and such like. Can I point out that nowhere have I ever mentioned "beleivers in flying saucers, wooly mammoth pilots, and such like" (nice phrasing!). I assume that you are mixing me up with one of my previous avatars. From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Fri Oct 20 09:46:49 2000 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 10:46:49 +0100 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062749.23782.7944067763944339817.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >>to be ascertained by the knowledge of other fields . For example, the date >>of the Mahabharata . The knowledge of astronomy was one way to estimate > >However, knowledge of astronomy has to be supplemented by a keen >understanding of different temporal layers in the MBh, varying >readings in different sources of manuscripts, errors in transmission, >etc., things which the textual scholars know well. And, what is equally important, you should know how to interprete a given passage. There are several astronomical phenomena mentioned in the Bhishmaparvan of the Mahabharata, some of them apparently chosen by the poet because of their inauspiciousness in order to convey the weird atmosphere immediately before the outbreak of the battle, others to indicate the astrologically proper moment to start the battle. If this is true, we cannot use these statements to calculate the date of the battle. And then: Even if a calculation would be possible, it would only allow conclusions about the poet's intention, and that is not necessarily the same as the historical date of the Mabharata war and it is neither the same as the date of the composition of the text. Unless, of course, you believe that the whole text is composed by one Vyasa and that this Vyasa was a contemporary of the events he describes. The composite character of the text does not support such a belief. I have tried to give an account of the chronological statements of the epic in a recent article, published in: M. Brockington and P. Schreiner (eds.): Composing a tradition: Concepts, Techniques and Relationships Zagreb, 1999 (Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts), pp. 49-66. Let me just quote my conclusion (p. 60): "As we can see, there is no consistent chronology with regard to the events around the battle. There seem to be different traditions, incompatible with each other, and the nakSatras were perhaps mentioned only because of their astrological qualities." > The two groups >can work together, if only they could put aside their prejudices >about each other. Sure, and I am delighted if I can get good advice from an astronomer. But you must understand that philologists cannot take seriously engineers and scientists who try to interprete ancient sanskrit texts on the basis of (sometimes bad) English translations without having learned the difficult art of text interpretation. That the philological experts too often enough go astray goes without saying. Georg v. Simson From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Fri Oct 20 10:43:57 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 11:43:57 +0100 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062752.23782.4564559872670832714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe that - Where there is will, there is a way . The dating of the Mahabharata is not going to be a piece of cake, which I understand. I have read Fitzgerald's ( from the field of literature ) paper in full, who has convincingly established that iron was used at the time of the Mahabharata . He quotes various poetic lines, and interprets them, and relates them to complex metal processing techniques which the metallurgists understand well . I have on my web the paper entitled, "ON THE DECIPHERING OF THE INDUS VALLEY SCRIPT AND THE SOLUTION OF THE BRAHUI PROBLEM " on the following web site : http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm In this work , I have established that the Santhals who speak a language closer to Brahui came from Baluchistan, presently in Pakistan by tracing their use of metals and minerals . This problem was unresolved starting from 1922 when Marshall , the pioneer of the Indus Valley excavations , came forward with his hypothesis about the origin of the Santhals. Why I wrote this title in the first place was because, the engineers were being told politely or otherwise, that they were not welcome on this web site . It is fine with me if the people having literature think that way . But the fact remains that whenever they go beyond their own boundaries, such as dating of the Mahabharata, their conclusions can not be taken seriously . Clearly, the solution lies in working together, depending upon the problem to be solved . In the case of dating the Mahabharata, obviously, knowers of Sanskrit would be needed . How else can the engineer ( who also knows astronomy ) even attempt to date the Mahabharata . Thanks. Anand M. Sharan From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Oct 20 11:54:25 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 13:54:25 +0200 Subject: Signing off Message-ID: <161227062758.23782.14624234550210148631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, I shall have to sign off the list for some time. This is not a "political statement", nor a protest against anything, the reasons are purely practical. Those of you who may want to reach me, can use my normal email address. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Fri Oct 20 18:41:01 2000 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Kumar) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 14:41:01 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062770.23782.4622593592906208864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer's posting on science in India is offensive, ill-conceived, and wrong. A scholar who projects himself to be better than the Indian scholars because of his training relied heavily on an average article (not much scholarly at all) in a magazine and his limited exposure of India (a few acquaints of Indian origin and an Asian girl friend, as he claims) to desecrate a whole generation of Indian scientists and engineers. This posting says a lot more about him as a person and a scholar than about the Indian science. By the way, Indians form the largest (or the second largest) community of minority scientists in America. Indians also constitute a fairly large segment of teachers in the American higher education. Should we conclude from this, in view of Steve Farmer's posting, that the American higher education and research is in abysmal state? By the way, Subash Kak is a celebrated member of the academic community in America. It is not fair to drag his name along with the "widespread plagiarism," "pervasive mediocrity," "mountain of junk papers with a very low citation index" in Indian science in the same paragraph. He has published more in the peer-reviewed journals than many of the so-called "experts" on this list. Many of these journals are published in the West. Should we start labeling these journals too? Varying views are common in most disciplines. Such name calling is not. Disagreement with his theories is O.K.; it is not O.K. to demean him. Indology subscribers should be familiar with the principles of netiquettes. In the past the moderator and a few other active members had reacted to much less offensive postings. Where are they now? We must have a few basic rules of engagements on this list to ensure that the discussion remains civil and respectful. Steve Farmer's posting was neither civil nor respectful. Alok Kumar From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 20 19:22:48 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 15:22:48 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062772.23782.6558987351183283918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Kumar >to desecrate a whole >generation of Indian scientists and engineers. Good post Alok, though I don't see so much offence in Steve's post, and by the way there is nothing wrong in reporting a serious problem, but there were worse posts from senior persons of Indian origin. Assuming 30,000 Indian graduates come to US every year (out of total 100,000 visas, rest filled from other countries like China, Philippines, Ireland etc). If it costs $100,000 for US to produce one graduate then for 30,000 students the imported manpower is worth $3 billion. But do they have colleges for additional 30,000 students? To build the colleges and parking lots they need another $100 billion. That was only for 30,000 students. For 100,000 students they need $300 billion. Oooops I forgot they raised the visa limit to 170,000 this year didn't they? This is on top of all those offshore satellite-network projects going on since 1994, and on top of branches opened in India by IBM, Lucent, Motorola etc. But hey come on, if 1000 shakhas of vedas can be written in mere 500 years between 1500BC to 1000BC, what is big deal? Sincerely B _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Oct 20 22:48:54 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 15:48:54 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062778.23782.9771763724822452685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would ignore Alok Kumar's attack if it weren't for personal data about me from outside sources that he let slip out in his message. Kumar claims that in my posts (which expanded on the recent OUTLOOK critique of Indian science): > ..relied heavily on an average article (not much scholarly > at all) in a magazine and his limited exposure of India (a few acquaints of > Indian origin and an Asian girl friend.... What is curious is that Kumar claims as one of my sources my "Asian girlfriend" -- who has no interest in Indology and was certainly NOT mentioned in my Indology posts. Kumar takes this informationfrom the most violent of the nationalistic Lists, where in the last week M. Witzel and/or I have been labeled "racists" or "white trash," or "garbage," etc., and have been threatened with the "fist" or the "cane" (and worse) for debunking N. Rajaram's work and criticizing Hindutva "revisions" of history. Here are a few gems from the List where Kumar has gotten his data. From the tone of the posts, you can see why Kumar's interest in my homelife (mentioned in passing in answering the absurd "racist" charge) is not welcome. These gems come from our Hindutva friends on that List (in this case, one Ashok Row Kavi) in the last five days: > This filth [S. Farmer and M. Witzel] should be shown the > fist. For that is the only way they understand. ... > Farmer is right when he says "India is unique". We put up with garbage like > him. ... > For the first time, I am appreciating the Ayatollah type violence. ... > Krishna kept on listening to the abuse of Sishupal only that far. After > that it was time to take out the suadarshan chakra [i.e., a disk thrown to > cut off someone's head]. I leave aside here the mundane accusations we've received of being "communists" -- or details about the computer viruses that both M. Witzel and I have received in the last week. Or this little jewel -- the entire message -- dropped in my email box the other day: > bastard donot play around with sentiments of hindus None of this, of course, has anything to do with critiques of Rajaram or the absurdities of Hindutva "revisions" of history. Steve Farmer From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Fri Oct 20 15:49:40 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 16:49:40 +0100 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062764.23782.2474081191694929329.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan writes: "A point is, may be small, Brahui is Dravidian whereas Santali in Eastern India is Austroasiatic that came from further East." The paper on Brahui Problem on my web page clearly shows that ( with many references ) that Santhalis do not have Austroasiatic origin but came from the Indus Valley . There are many believed what you are saying . Thanks . Anand M. Sharan From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Oct 20 21:32:32 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 17:32:32 -0400 Subject: A chess piece Message-ID: <161227062776.23782.15773302144755549969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The picture at has the caption "A probable ancestor of the game of chess (in terracotta, from Lothal)." The head looks like a cows to me the neck shape could be misleading because all the peices are elongated vertically. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 20 18:04:40 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 19:04:40 +0100 Subject: Scientist-Indologists In-Reply-To: <20001018154701.28794.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062768.23782.11784514144674535283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > It is common among Dravidianists to have scientific training: Look, everyone, you're missing the point. It isn't that having a scientific university-level training is a problem. The problem is *not* having an indological training. There is such a subject as Indology, you know, just as there is Greek, Physics, or English Literature. And it takes several years to graduate, and several more years to get a doctorate. That is the kind of training that this list presupposes. The only issue with scientifically-trained people is that they have worked in a dominant paradigm where everyone has reinforced for years the idea that they are addressing life's big questions, and so forth, and this can unfortunately lead to a certain hubris in susceptible individuals. Suddenly a degree in Physics or Computer science is a qualification to write about ancient Indian culture, or about anything else they fancy. Well, as we see so embarrassingly and at such length on this list, it is not! People with scientific backgrounds, but no training in indology, simply make fools of themselves here, particularly when (as so often) making strident and extreme claims. There is no substitute for a good education -- *in the subject you are intending to talk about*. -- Dominik Wujastyk, BSc. Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Fri Oct 20 19:52:39 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 00 20:52:39 +0100 Subject: A chess piece Message-ID: <161227062774.23782.12992782651055942613.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The picture at http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/Chessmen.jpg has the caption "A probable ancestor of the game of chess (in terracotta, from Lothal)." (Caption in http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/indusaryan.htm ). Look at the item in the second row, first column ? More horseplay ? Thanks, -arun gupta From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri Oct 20 23:41:28 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 01:41:28 +0200 Subject: SV: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062780.23782.7151862080387808149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As an addendum to what Lars Martin Fosse has already written: Am 19 Oct schrieb NAYAK Anand: > > The sudden flooding of Indian > engineers (or is it the sudde opening in the Western marketting needs ?) has > created a lot of ill feelings. In Germany there is a slogan running now : > Kinder, nicht Inder (More children please, not Indians). I guess these are > the initial reactions of fear. The substantial esteem will follow I hope. It was already there. There is a new political slogan in response to the earlier right-wing slogan (which, by the way, was already severely disliked also by fellow party-members of the politician who coined the earlier one): "lieber Fachm?nner als Flachm?nner" ("experts are preferable, rather than shallow guys"). That earlier slogan was indeed a knee-jerk right-wing populist reaction of the political opposition to the present German government's offer of many thousands of residential and work permits specifically for IT experts. We must realise that his invitation to experts would not be there if their expertise had not been recognised in the first place! (I just want to counterbalance what could lead to a potentially wrong impression about what people think over here in Germany. Unfortunately the long-standing German love affair with India seems a rather one-way affair, and the attention which the news media have given [following the everlasting Hollywood tradition of the Evil German] to this one politician and his stupid slogan is not helpful.) Am 19 Oct schrieb Swaminathan Madhuresan: > > Indians have done it in USA and Silicon Valley, and Germany > should not be different, I hope. Of course not exactly the same; but why not... better? :-) After all, this is the land of technology. Even American singer Janis Joplin asked God to give her a Mercedes-Benz because her friends had Porsches... RZ -- Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik, Universit?t M?nchen -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From giravani at JUNO.COM Sat Oct 21 00:56:36 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 01:56:36 +0100 Subject: Diversification on Indology Message-ID: <161227062782.23782.6864949000809766388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Truth about the prehistory of India will evolve gradually only through the diversified views.It is necessary for all interested parties to be patient, to follow the Golden Middle Path of Gautama Buddha and to avoid the activities of name calling, labeling and threatening to the participants whose views differ from yours.Conflicts arise when one uses the evolving information to demote history, culture, religion, race of others and to promote his own.Political and religious activities based upon evolving and hence partial information should be discouraged all over the earth by scholars familiar with the intricacies of the research processes. One should look at the positive side of the Indology discussions where valuable information is exchanged and ignore small percentage of the errors. Diversification in Indology participants should be encouraged instead of the formation of the Tom,Dick,Harry backyard barbecue group.To the best of my knowledge the Indology participant Dr. Ganesan is an engineer by profession. From his Indology postings I got understanding about the south Indian languages and culture deeper than the syncretic constructs of some trained Indologists.I belive Truth will make everybody happy, not one group or the other.There is no conflict in the Truth. Conflicts are in our minds. Patience with politenes is needed.Deepavali greetings to all.N.R.Joshi From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 21 11:44:11 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 04:44:11 -0700 Subject: Quality Intellect Message-ID: <161227062793.23782.2669533114564432518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Quality Intellect S. Farmer wrote: <> Forum Members: I would like to suggest that essential quality does not in any way require "qualification," and that the sole requirement for participating in this Electronic "Indian Studies" Forum is that one be in possession of a quality intellect. The question to this forum, then, might rather be stated as, "What distinguishes a quality intellect?" In the context of this forum, I would further suggest that a quality intellect would express itself in a clear-cut, elucidating, and above all endearing manner that imbues not only our immediate forum, but the broader intellectual community, and--why not??"humankind as a whole" with the very inner-workings its quality. Our wide-ranging backgrounds should have nothing at all to do with this. A quality intellect should certainly be able to crap the cut right away. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From agood at BLUENOTE.DEMON.CO.UK Sat Oct 21 07:49:28 2000 From: agood at BLUENOTE.DEMON.CO.UK (Anthony Good) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 08:49:28 +0100 Subject: QUALIFICATIONS TO EXPRESS ON THIS INDOLOGY GROUP In-Reply-To: <972015855.2127574.0@listserv.liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227062786.23782.17100753859854582904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:06:18 +0100 > From: "Anand M. Sharan" > Subject: QUALIFICATIONS TO EXPRESS ON THIS INDOLOGY GROUP > There are many think that they know about India by reading books which do > not contain facts . > > First thing is to know India first hand otherwise forming opinions based on > incomplete survey does not lead any one any where . For example, if one > reads literature sold at the check out counters of the grocery stores in > U.S.A., the opinion so formed would be totally false . The discussion seems to have muddled up two issues which are actually wholly separate. (i) the quality of Indian education. In a previous incarnation I taught chemistry at a university in Sri Lanka and had some contact with Indian science teaching. The best was of world standard, the worst, partly because of lack of resources, was awful. (ii) However, that is hardly the point. Would we confidently drive over a bridge built by an indologist with no engineering training? I think not. Likewise, what basis is there for taking seriously an indological theory propounded by an engineer with no indological training? The idea that being Indian or living in India gives one some kind of privileged status where indology is concerned is simply wrong, just as it would be wrong to assume that every Indian (or for that matter, every Briton) intuitively knows about Indian (or British) geology or hydrology, etc. It is not ethnic origin which is the issue here, but professional training. Tony Good -- Dr Anthony Good Department of Social Anthropology, University of Edinburgh Edinburgh EH8 9LL A.Good at ed.ac.uk (work) agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk (home/travel) From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 21 17:30:57 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 10:30:57 -0700 Subject: Quality Intellect Message-ID: <161227062813.23782.10333730748520783877.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: <> There we are then. This sounds very reasonable to me. Thank you. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Oct 21 09:19:29 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 11:19:29 +0200 Subject: THE ENGINEERS AND THE INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062789.23782.4481361199486360876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Georg von Simson wrote: > I have tried to give an account of the chronological statements of the > epic in a recent article, published in: > M. Brockington and P. Schreiner (eds.): Composing a tradition: > Concepts, Techniques and Relationships > Zagreb, 1999 (Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts), pp. 49-66. I would suggest an additional reference which may be of use to our Indian colleages interested in the matter. M. Brockington and P. Schreiner (eds.): Composing a tradition: Concepts, Techniques and Relationships: Proceedings of the First Dubrovnik International Conference on the Sanskrit Epics and Puranas, August 1997. DELHI, MUNSHIRAM MANOHARLAL, 1999, 352 p. On its contents see: http://www.vedamsbooks.com/no17841.htm Best wishes to all, Yaroslav Vassilkov From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Sat Oct 21 11:05:26 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 12:05:26 +0100 Subject: QUALIFICATIONS TO EXPRESS ON THIS INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062791.23782.11063359062316841782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:49:28 +0100, Anthony Good wrote: >> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:06:18 +0100 >> From: "Anand M. Sharan" >> Subject: QUALIFICATIONS TO EXPRESS ON THIS INDOLOGY GROUP > >> There are many think that they know about India by reading books which do >> not contain facts . >> >> First thing is to know India first hand otherwise forming opinions based on >> incomplete survey does not lead any one any where . For example, if one >> reads literature sold at the check out counters of the grocery stores in >> U.S.A., the opinion so formed would be totally false . > >The discussion seems to have muddled up two issues which are actually >wholly separate. > >(i) the quality of Indian education. In a previous incarnation I taught >chemistry at a university in Sri Lanka and had some contact with >Indian science teaching. The best was of world standard, the worst, >partly because of lack of resources, was awful. > >(ii) However, that is hardly the point. Would we confidently drive >over a bridge built by an indologist with no engineering training? I think >not. Likewise, what basis is there for taking seriously an indological >theory propounded by an engineer with no indological training? > >The idea that being Indian or living in India gives one some kind of >privileged status where indology is concerned is simply wrong, just as it >would be wrong to assume that every Indian (or for that matter, every >Briton) intuitively knows about Indian (or British) geology or hydrology, >etc. It is not ethnic origin which is the issue here, but professional >training. > >Tony Good >-- >Dr Anthony Good >Department of Social Anthropology, >University of Edinburgh >Edinburgh EH8 9LL > >A.Good at ed.ac.uk (work) >agood at bluenote.demon.co.uk (home/travel) I wrote that after reading postings by those considered to be very well qualified indologists . Reading the right literature was always emphasized right from the childhood . We all know that India was not governed by its majority of the people for centuries . The history and literature of India would have very different varieties due to this reason. If one is not carfeful in selecting the literature, in spite of the very hard work, the views so formed would be far away from the truth . Hence the comment. Anand M. Sharan From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 21 19:26:09 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 12:26:09 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062823.23782.4080451796039399651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >At base, what Farmer is trying to do is to find for himself some way >of understanding how Rajram, Kak, and others can write history that is so >at variance with the standard model, and is based on poor evidence, >misleading argumentation, and so forth. How can someone >do something so inexplicable? Why would a scholar, someone dedicated >to truth, write a book containing untruth? >These are very puzzling matters, and not at all obvious. I read Farmer's >posting as an attempt to blame bad historiography on poor education. I >think his argument has some merit, but was rather too simple, and rather >sweeping. But it certainly deserved an airing. Dear Dr. Steve Farmer, There is one institution in India that won't yield much to analysis of "comparative history". It is called Caste. It's changing though. In a Democracy, numbers count and the Brahminical system is transforming into one of inclusiveness, a 180 degree turn from the usual. For millennia, Indians were told about how everything on earth came from Veda. Now the Linguists and Archaeologists tell a different story based on their studies. Hard to digest, some highest caste persons like Rajaram et al., try to alter Indology by their intense propaganda. It is interesting that the term Dravidian, which means "Tamil-like" in Sanskrit, is attacked vigorously. Strikingly, you will find that the lowest strata of castes, called Dalits nowadays, are not bent upon finding a horse in Indus seals. More than bad education in humanities, the last ditch effort to salvage their caste's position plays a role in all these. There are other factors as well. Best wishes, Prasad _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 21 17:35:41 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 12:35:41 -0500 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062815.23782.3247145766052551917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Dominik Wujastyk > >At base, what Farmer is trying to do is to find for himself some way of >understanding how Rajram, Kak, and others can write history that is so >at variance with the standard model, and is based on poor evidence, >misleading argumentation, and so forth. How can someone do something >so inexplicable? Why would a scholar, someone dedicated to truth, >write a book containing untruth? > Please ask Witzel that question. Dont you realize that your so called 'standard model' is also based on poor evidence, misleading argumentation and so forth ? Standard model ? Based on that flawed assumption you extrapolate that the others are wrong. How are you so sure that your standard model is close to the truth - it has its origins in a racist past and arrogant present. It is ok to be partisan - but please do not present it is objective scholarship. Remember that when I asked "What happens when a person indulges in mistranslations of passages in order to prove ones point or theory" See Dr. Vassilov's reply at http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0008&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=5626 Considering the history of mistranslations and misrepresentations that europeanist scholars have indulged in from anaasa to amaavasu they cannot be trusted anymore. Regards, Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 21 16:35:54 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 12:35:54 -0400 Subject: Kak review part 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062810.23782.6418502187221439125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indeed, Dominik! Since she sent me a file of out last year, I post it below (formatting and all), though a little long, in two parts. I may add my own points, separately, tomorrow. > important review by Kim Plofker >of Kak's Rgvedic Astronomical Code book: _Centaurus_ 38 (1996), 362--364. ---------------------------------------------------- KIM PLOFKER, Brown U., in: Centaurus 38 (1996) %%%%% kakreview.tex %%% %%\magnification=\magstep1 %%\baselineskip=18pt \let\*=\d \hangindent=1in \hangafter=1 Review: Subhash Kak, {\it The Astronomical Code of the \*Rgveda}, Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi 1994 \medskip ({\it Centaurus}\/ 38 (1996), 362--364) \bigskip \bigskip \bgroup \baselineskip=12pt \centerline{Kim Plofker} \centerline{Department of History of Mathematics} \centerline{Brown University} \centerline{Providence, RI~~02912~~~USA} \egroup \bigskip In his preface to {\it The Astronomical Code of the \*Rgveda}, Dr. Kak remarks, ``My inquiry began in seeking answer [sic] to the puzzle: How can the Vedic texts suggest a subtle understanding of the nature of consciousness and yet have had no quantitative science.'' The very formulation of such a question implies a conviction that the attainment of ``subtle understanding'' is inherently dependent upon the goals and methods of modern scientific practice. Hence it is not surprising that Dr. Kak believes he has solved his puzzle by discovering that there is indeed ``quantitative science'' in the Vedas (although without any direct relevance to the problem of the nature of consciousness): specifically, that certain combinations of some numbers enumerating the syllables, verses and hymns in the {\it \*Rgveda}, {\it Atharvaveda}, and {\it Bhagavadg\={\i}t\=a}\/ coincide with numbers approximating the periods of various celestial motions. It is claimed that these numbers (some of which are also found in specifications given in the {\it Br\=ahma\*nas}\/ and {\it \'Sulbas\=utras}\/ for sacrificial altars) were obtained in the Vedic era by a prolonged and highly developed program of astronomical observation, and that they constitute an ``astronomical code'' in accordance with which the structure of these texts and the construction of the fire-altars were determined. The knowledge of this code, it is suggested, disappeared very shortly after the composition of the texts and thus has remained entirely absent from every exegetical tradition up to the present. Dr. Kak's efforts to explain and support his theory involve him in a number of other hypotheses sharply at variance with the views that most Indologists hold on the basis of overwhelming linguistic evidence that Dr. Kak dismisses or ignores. First and foremost, astronomical references in the {\it Taittir\={\i}ya\-br\=ahma\*na}, {\it \'Sata\-patha\-br\=ahma\*na}, {\it Maitr\=aya\-\*n\={\i}ya\-br\=ahma\*nopani\*sad}, and {\it Jyoti\*sa\-ved\=a\.nga}\/ (all of which are lumped together with many others under the heading ``Vedic texts'') are interpreted (p. 35) as literal and accurate chronological indicators, presumably in order to sustain the Vedic Indians' character for competent and careful observation. This yields a greatly expanded chronology for the ``Vedic'' era, in support of which are adduced equally uncritical reconstructions from Pur\=a\*nic king-lists and references to the Bh\=arata War (pp. 56--67). It is not explicitly stated what the estimated dates of this era under these new constraints should be, but it is clear at least that they extend the ``Vedic'' period back for many centuries beyond the time commonly believed to mark the entry of the Aryans into India. This discrepancy is circumvented by pushing back the time of the Aryans' arrival to the seventh millennium B.C. (pp. 20--22), and identifying the early Indus Valley civilizations as ethnically Aryan (p. 39) with an Indo-Aryan language (pp. 47--49). The identification of the Vedic with the Indus Valley civilizations permits the hypothesis that their scientific achievements, as reconstructed by means of the ``astronomical code,'' may have provided the inspiration for later Babylonian and Greek astronomy (pp. 3, 119--120). Unfortunately, the actual evidence presented in the book is neither abundant nor convincing enough to justify such drastic revisions. It consists entirely of noting equivalences between certain selected astronomical constants, many of them very approximate, and numbers that either appear in the ``Vedic'' texts or can be extracted from their verse and hymn numbers by arithmetic manipulation. A few of these numbers, in no way ``encoded,'' unquestionably do reflect the astronomical knowledge that the early Indians are generally acknowledged to have possessed: thus when it is pointed out (by no means for the first time) that there is an explicitly astronomical reference in the {\it Aitarey\=ara\*nyaka}\/ to the 360 days of the (ideal) year (pp. 78--79), or in the {\it \'Satapathabr\=ahma\*na}\/ to the number of muh\=urtas in a thousand years (p. 84), or in the {\it Kau\*s\={\i}takibr\=ahma\*na}\/ to the times of the solstices (pp. 86--87), these may be legitimately termed ``Vedic astronomy.'' (to be continued) ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 21 16:36:06 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 12:36:06 -0400 Subject: Kak review, part II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062812.23782.6358937710937135173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > important review by Kim Plofker >of Kak's Rgvedic Astronomical Code book: _Centaurus_ 38 (1996), 362--364. ---------- PART II Dr. Kak goes very much further than this, however, in assuming that the mere presence in (or association with) the text of any number possessing possible astronomical significance implies that the number was deliberately chosen, in accordance with the ``\*Rgvedic code,'' by authors fully aware of that significance. Furthermore, for the sake of this code he is willing to postulate scientific activity on the part of the Vedic Indians involving procedures and quantities not attested in this or any other phase of Indian astronomy. Thus, a succession of 95 increments in the area of a fire-altar is taken to imply the use of a 95-year intercalation cycle in the calendar (pp. 84--85, 118). Likewise, the presence of the number 108 (e.g., in the number 10,800,000 enumerating the muh\=urtas in 1000 ideal years) is ascribed to the realization that ``108 is roughly the average distance that the sun is in terms of its own diameter from the earth'' (p. 99); and the combined number of s\=uktas or hymns in the fourth, sixth, eighth, and ninth ma\*n\*dalas of the {\it \*Rgveda}\/ was allegedly chosen to be 339 because that number is roughly equivalent to ``the number of disks of the sun or the moon to measure the path across the sky...[or] sun-steps'' (p. 100). The fact that the total number of hymns in all ten ma\*n\*dalas is 1017 ($= 339 \times 3$), while the number of (somewhat arbitrary) subdivisions of the ma\*n\*dalas (p. 90) into various categories is 216 ($= 108 \times 2$), is therefore supposed to confirm that ``[t]he \*Rgvedic code then expresses a fundamental connection between the numbers 339 and 108'' (p. 99). Dr. Kak offers several more deductions of this type, culminating in his reconstruction (pp. 103--107) of the alleged ``\*Rgvedic code.'' It is asserted that because the set of integers yielded by all possible additive combinations of the numbers of hymns in each ma\*n\*dala includes numbers very close to the (modern) periods of revolution in days and in tithis for the five star-planets, it must follow that the Indians of the Vedic period, using observational data necessarily accumulated over centuries, had correctly established these periods and encoded them in the selection of the hymns. In the complete absence of any real textual evidence that the culture of the Vedic period was concerned to the slightest degree with such endeavours, or that notions such as the ``sun-step'' have any historical place in Indian astronomy, it is incumbent upon Dr. Kak to provide thoroughly convincing internal evidence to support his position; and he has not accomplished this. The ``evidence,'' in fact, does not go much beyond a single attempt, in the very brief section entitled ``Probabilistic Validation'' (pp. 106--107), to argue from statistical data that the presence of planetary period numbers in the \*Rgvedic hymn number combinations cannot be coincidental. The reasoning, however, is flawed; for the sake of the non-technical reader who may be intimidated by mathematical jargon, it is worth while to explain why. Briefly, Dr. Kak's claim is as follows: The set of numbers generated by the additive combinations of the ten numbers enumerating the hymns in each of the ten books contains 461 distinct integers ranging from 43 to 1017. Assuming that these 461 numbers are random values uniformly distributed over this interval, the probability of finding any given positive integer less than 1017 among them is somewhat less than $1/2$. Thus only about half of Dr. Kak's selected astronomical constants should appear in this set; the fact that not half but all of them are found is therefore considered to prove that the hymn numbers were designedly selected to encode these values, since the probability that all of them might appear purely at random is ``so small that the claim that the Book numbers were deliberately chosen may be taken to be confirmed.'' This argument, however, is completely invalidated by the simple fact that the set of values generated from sums of a given set of numbers is generally {\it not}\/ uniformly distributed over the interval it spans; as a rule, there will be a few very small sums and a few very large ones, but most will cluster about the middle of the interval. In this example, out of the 461 hymn combination numbers, no fewer than 320 fall within the range 301--800 containing most of the planetary period constants. This, combined with the fact that Dr. Kak (by his own account; p. 105) permits errors of at least $\pm 1$ in his matching of numbers, means that the high proportion of matches has no statistical significance whatever. Thus it cannot conscientiously be claimed that the mathematical evidence is any less dubious than the historical evidence in favor of the existence of an ``astronomical code'' in these texts. Such objections as these should suffice to show that Dr. Kak has, at best, seriously overinterpreted his data, and founded his sweeping chronological conjectures upon a few interesting numerical coincidences, without sufficient regard for either the historical or the mathematical counterarguments. Dr. Kak's own confidence in this approach, however, is profound: he suggests (p. 107) that ``[c]orroboration for the conclusion that the Vedic world knew the planetary periods may be sought in the artifacts and astronomical designs from the Harappan ruins...It also becomes reasonable to reexamine the Vedic literature for further knowledge about the planet motions.'' Indeed, should Dr. Kak go on to seek such ``corroboration'' by similar means from the archaeological or textual sources, it seems quite likely that he will manage to find it. \end ------------- Tomorrow, my quota being exhausted, my own notes. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 21 13:20:17 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 13:20:17 +0000 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062795.23782.1172023450454646057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. B. Gupt noted earlier in this thread: >Why not just have categories like Atipraachiina, Praachiina and >Arvachiina bhaashaas for India. If Tamil and Sanskrit are found to >be present in all categories, what is wrong ? >The 'classical' game seems to be one for hegemony and exclusiveness, >more for politics rather than culture. There is one significant exception when we compare the classical traditions of India, Sanskrit and Tamil in categories of Atipraachiina etc.,: *Theory of Poetics*. TolkAppiyam, considered the earliest of all Tamil books is divided into three parts. The last chapter, called "PoruL" describes a rhetoric of poetry found not in any other Indian languages including Sanskrit. TolkAppiyar, the rhetorician is to India what Aristotle is to Greece. The PoruL chapter remains with no good or full translation, and not compared with Ananda/Abhinava and so on. Dr. Palaniappan has elucidated the Tamil and Prakrit connexions in http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0010&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=32752 and http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0010&L=indology&D=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=32631 That's why BaaNa in his Harshacaritam tells us movingly about Hala enduring severe ridicule on account of his love for Prakrits. Later, Anandavardhana followed the illustrious predecessor Hala and composed poetry in Mahashtri Prakrit to elucidate dhvany. Unfortunately, only few poems from A.'s possibly first book, vishamabaa.naliilaa, exist. >The 'classical' game seems to be one for hegemony and exclusiveness, >more for politics rather than culture. (B. Gupt). Agreed. Excluding Tamil from Clasical languages of India with only Sanskrit, Arabic and Persian, like what Dr. Fosse tries to do, will lead to hegemony. Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat Oct 21 07:58:47 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 13:28:47 +0530 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <39F091BD.1733444F@oswego.edu> Message-ID: <161227062784.23782.16567107149870199247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Kumar wrote: > Indians form the largest ...community of minority scientists in > America...Should we conclude from this...that the American higher > education and research is abysmal That exactly is the point raised by Steve Farmer: why do the same Indians who fail in India do so well when they go abroad? Why is it that often the same person does not do well in one state but suddenly becomes a genius when he goes to any tom-dick-harry country? But hold on, now we hear a new theory: > Steve Farmer's posting on science in India is offensive, > ill-conceived, and wrong...his limited exposure of India (a few > acquaints of Indian origin and an Asian girl friend, as he claims) ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So the new insinutation: Indians are doing well in the West not because of any suppressed merit but due to the European fascination for Indian and Latina girls ! Jeez - that's right, this explains why they always win the Miss Universe contests. Anything goes, as long as the holy system wherein degrees can be purchased for Rs.5,000 is not criticised. Let us remember that this same system was founded by Shri Bhagwan Nehruji, who, as per Rajaram's own website, died of syphilis: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/oldarchives/syphilis.html (BTW The author `Truth Detector' is actually Rajaram himself) When such a sick person is the father of this academic system, what can one expect? > He has published more in the peer-reviewed journals than many of the > so-called "experts" on this list. Many of these journals are > published in the West ...it is not O.K. to demean him. Nowhere is it written that Mr. Kak and others are not allowed to take part in Indology-List. Then why does he not then come to Indology and defend himself against the charges levelled? For that matter, why don't any of these so-called `experts' with Rs.5000-degrees purchased from various of these `prestigious' Universities come forward to the main Indology list? One wonders why these experts only post to lists such as `Great-Sarasvati-Sindhu-Metropolitan-Railways', `Rama-Rajaram-versus-Ravana-Mahadevan', `Jesus-Christ-was-a-Rakshasa', `Flying-Vedic-Spaceships-From-Mars' lists and not this one? Maybe some of them are hiding behind some of the hotmail accounts which periodically pop up every now and then? Then perhaps, the true answer will always hurt those who benefit from it. > Indology subscribers should be familiar with the principles of > netiquettes. In the past the moderator and a few other active members > had reacted to much less offensive ... There was nothing racist about Steve Farmer's post - it was about a system not a people. Also, before certain persons hyperventilate all their vicious pent-up hatred on this list, may it be pointed out that his post was just a link to an Outlook magazine article. For this heinous crime, Prof. Farmer has now been crucified. May I suggest that the anger expressed by some list members about that post be redirected to the authors of the article concerned instead of somebody who merely posts a link to it? Relevant emails can be obtained from the outlookindia.com website which is webmaster at outlookindia.com. (Hey - Now THAT is something the computer engineers should have known!). But then, those Outlook persons did not write any articles about horeplay by Rajaram, which is the real reason for all the anger against Steve Farmer. His short link to outlook is merely a shallow excuse for venting anger by those people who couldn't reply to his Frontline article (Is that perhaps of certain lack of Indological knowledge ?). Samar From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 21 18:09:52 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 14:09:52 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062818.23782.13490858625938012036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof Dominik Wujastyk >At base, what Farmer is trying to do is to find for himself some way of >understanding how Rajram, Kak, and others can write history that is so at >variance with the standard model, and is based on poor evidence, >misleading argumentation, and so forth. How can someone do something so >inexplicable? Why would a scholar, someone dedicated to truth, write a >book containing untruth? My credentials first. I maintain a website based on 26 years of experience in what I think is Indology. The site is still under construction. URL is at the end of this post. For whatever reason, Subhash Kak and Rajaram are household names in India now, at least among reading populations. Government Indologists are most of the time buried under beaurocracy or bogged down by budget problems. People heard enough of AIT etc and wanted to hear something else. There was a market and it was filled. As for truth and untruth, who knows? Even great scholars get confused between truth/untruth or existing/non-existing or known/unknown. Just to give an illustration, what is unknown is not necessarily non-existing. There things that exist but we do not know. And what is non-existing is not necessarily untruth. You can still talk about non-existing objects (like horns of a hare) and still speak truth. Any thing untruth is not necessarily unknown. There are many untruths which people instinctively know, not proven in a lab. Such things become clear only in professional papers or abstracts. That needs time and careful and studied philosohphical thinking, which is not possible in a fast moving message board like this where everybody is under time or moral pressure to write the next mail. If this board is only to share information, why are we trying to convince others? I was on this board three years ago, and I have not seen any one who had "transformed" since then. The same people are taking same positions. People still think that the incoming note is meant to convince them, precisely because it was worded to convince people, meaning there was not enough support material. I do think there are ways to convince people: explaining things in a broader perspective. Once we adopt a broad perspective, many minor plus and minus points and petty differences will become clear to every one. If we do not take a broad vision, then we end up taking sides, and this will never end. Or why not enforce a title on each post saying "ABSTRACT" or "MY OPINION" etc? If it is a research work it can be an "abstract", and people can take their sweet time to give it a scholarly thought. If it is purely personal opinion then title it as "MY OPINION", and nobody will react. Just a stray idea. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli http://homes.acmectiy.com/friends/harmonica/301 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sat Oct 21 21:54:11 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 14:54:11 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062834.23782.4425405108439526647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Of course it does. It should by now be obvious that poking a jackbooted fascist with a stick is a risky business. Fascists are brutal but they must have their historical myths, and they value compliant "scientists" who will give their myths respectability. It is the duty of a real scientist to protest when science is perverted by politics and false scientific claims are made in support of political theories. This is a particularly pressing duty when the political influence is fascistic in theory and method. The question should not be why are Farmer and Witzel pursuing this matter, but why are Indian scientists so silent in their support? Have they been intimidated? As Thoreau is reputed to have said in response to Emerson's question after Thoreau had been jailed after standing on some point of principle, "The question is not why am I here, Brother Emerson, but why are you still out there?" My respects to you, Brother Farmer. David Salmon ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Farmer To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: "Science" in India the most violent of the nationalistic Lists, where in the last week M. Witzel and/or I have been labeled "racists" or "white trash," or "garbage," etc., and have been threatened with the "fist" or the "cane" (and worse) for debunking N. Rajaram's work and criticizing Hindutva "revisions" of history. Here are a few gems from the List in the last five days: > This filth [S. Farmer and M. Witzel] should be shown the > fist. For that is the only way they understand. > Farmer is right when he says "India is unique". We put up with garbage like him. ... > For the first time, I am appreciating the Ayatollah type violence. ... > Krishna kept on listening to the abuse of Sishupal only that far. After > that it was time to take out the suadarshan chakra [i.e., a disk thrown to > cut off someone's head]. I leave aside here the mundane accusations we've received of being "communists" -- or details about the computer viruses that both M. Witzel and I have received in the last week. Or this little jewel -- the entire message -- dropped in my email box the other day: > bastard donot play around with sentiments of hindus None of this, of course, has anything to do with critiques of Rajaram or the absurdities of Hindutva "revisions" of history. Steve Farmer From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 21 19:01:28 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 15:01:28 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062820.23782.4907302202814982432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > These are very puzzling matters, and not at all obvious. I read Farmer's > posting as an attempt to blame bad historiography on poor education. I > think his argument has some merit, but was rather too simple, and rather > sweeping. But it certainly deserved an airing. Dear Dominik, I must assume that this forum does not have any political agenda like many other forums have. I don't see the other forums because most of it are opinions. The question is what sort of opinions would you tolerate in this forum? Once an opinion is floated, counter-opinions are bound to exist. In earlier times, you were expelling people for some violations. I have not been very clear what you consider research and what you would definitely consider an opinion. When you said "it certainly deserved an airing", is it an opinion of yours or is it the basis of the rationale? Also why "airing" here? For what reason? Is poor Indian science hurting Indology? Is it to prove that Rajaram is a product of bad education? Since sometimes we claim that we belong in the "Indology" list, it would help clarify the position. I wish well of you, but we have to be clear in our objectives and candid in our foundation. Hope you would try your best to keep the forum out of politics and political activists. In case you yourself get to a "political bias", this just becomes "another" list. If deterioration is allowed, there is no bottom. Regards, Bijoy Misra From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Sat Oct 21 19:33:35 2000 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Kumar) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 15:33:35 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062825.23782.12747544389142158988.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is in response to Steve Farmer's posting in which he labeled my posting as an attack on him. It was not. His personal life is not my interest and was not central to my posting. He is the one who shared this information to all. He has not replied to my objection that he should not desecrate a whole generation of Indian scientists and engineers based on his scanty personal observations and a magazine article. It is not a scholarly practice. That was the central theme of my posting and Steve ignored it. Domink Wujastyk, the moderator, called Steve's posting "rather too simple and rather sweeping." That was precisely my point. Domink also mentioned that Steve "should have realized he would be poking a stick into a beehive." Well, he did not despite his humanistic training. All domains of knowledge evolve out of infinite mutations. Different views are common, a norm too, in the intellectual world. It should not lead to cultural insensitivity or name-calling. To prove my point that I have nothing against Steve Farmer on a personal level, this is my last posting on this issue. Alok Kumar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 21 14:45:37 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 15:45:37 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <39EF131A.1CF57E2B@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227062799.23782.7226213267270166151.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > The nonsense that Kak, Rajaram, et al. dish out could not come from > anyone even with a moderate training in philology or ancient history > in general. Well, I admit that my view of Frawley's writings were affected for the worse when I saw how many of his footnotes referred to the Motilal Banarsidass Newsletter. (No offence to MLBD or the Newsletter, which is surely not intended even by its editors as an academic journal.) However, I think that you are quite wrong on this point. Very well trained humanists can write untruthful books. As you know, David Irving, the holocaust denier, recently lost a libel case in this country (UK) against Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books, for some of the things she said in her book _Denying the Holocaust: the growing assault on truth an memory_. In the course of the court hearings and the summing up of the judge, it became clear that Irving has an excellent command of historical fact and method. He also has extraordinarily well-developed skills in rhetoric. (More at http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-00-00.html) In section 13.7 of his Findings, Hon. Mr. Justice Gray even said that, as a military historian, Irving has much to commend him. For his works of military history Irving has undertaken thorough and painstaking research into the archives. He has discovered and disclosed to historians and others many documents which, but for his efforts, might have remained unnoticed for years. It was plain from the way in which he conducted his case and dealt with a sustained and penetrating cross-examination that his knowledge of World War 2 is unparalleled. His mastery of the detail of the historical documents is remarkable. He is beyond question able and intelligent. He was invariably quick to spot the significance of documents which he had not previously seen. Moreover he writes his military history in a clear and vivid style. I accept the favourable assessment by Professor Watt and Sir John Keegan of the calibre of Irving's military history (mentioned in paragraph 3.4 above) and reject as too sweeping the negative assessment of Evans (quoted in paragraph 3.5). The judge went on to explain that, specifically in regard to Irving's claims about Hitler's attitude to and treatment of the Jews, Irving had indeed distorted the evidence (# 13.9). Irving's motivations can only be surmised, but they are clearly different from those of most academics in university jobs. When Zaehner gave his inaugural lecture at Oxford (Foolishness to the Greeks) he emphasized how happy and relieved he was that at last he was in a profession which was officially dedicated to the pursuit of truth (he was formerly in the diplomatic service). And it is a commonplace that university academics in free countries are interested in truth. I don't know what the motivations of people like Irving are, but they do not seem to be about establishing historical truths. One supposes that they have to do with power (enter Foucault), adulation, recognition and approval by a coterie of supporters whose approbation is sought or cared about, etc. etc. The judge's remarks in #13.136 ff., and esp. 13.163 address Irving's immediate motivation, i.e., "a desire to present events in a manner consistent with his own ideological beliefs even if that involved distortion and manipulation of historical evidence. ", but I feel this falls short of a full exploration of human motives. It is interesting that several of the judge's dismissals of Irving's various arguments rest on the fact that Irving repeatedly uses citations from biassed sources (Nazis, sympathisers, etc.) as though they were balanced evidence (e.g., #13.13). I am particularly interested in the judge's use of the idea of "the convergence of evidence" (#13.72-78), which is an idea I used in my article Science and the Veda, and which I cited from Steven Weinberg. It's a useful concept, a sort of historical gestalt. Anyway, I digress. To sum up, it would be very nice if we could attribute the historical distortions of Rajram etc. simply to poor workmanship by people unqualified to attempt the job they have taken on. This certainly may be the case. But it does seem beyond question, sadly, that even highly skilled historians defend false views, beyond what might occur due to reasonable error. Of course, at the risk of boring everyone, I also think it unlikely that people not at all trained historical method will produce worthwhile ideas and theories on historical topics. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 21 15:03:07 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 16:03:07 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <39F091BD.1733444F@oswego.edu> Message-ID: <161227062801.23782.2325061128950371687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Kumar wrote: > Indology subscribers should be familiar with the principles of > netiquettes. In the past the moderator and a few other active members > had reacted to much less offensive postings. Where are they now? We > must have a few basic rules of engagements on this list to ensure that > the discussion remains civil and respectful. Steve Farmer's posting > was neither civil nor respectful. I disagree with your view. I think Farmer was reasonably civil and respectful, though he should have realized he would be poking a stick into a beehive. I think that many of the objections you raise are actually to the Outlook article. Someone who promotes views you disagree with is not, thereby, necessarily disrespectful. At base, what Farmer is trying to do is to find for himself some way of understanding how Rajram, Kak, and others can write history that is so at variance with the standard model, and is based on poor evidence, misleading argumentation, and so forth. How can someone do something so inexplicable? Why would a scholar, someone dedicated to truth, write a book containing untruth? These are very puzzling matters, and not at all obvious. I read Farmer's posting as an attempt to blame bad historiography on poor education. I think his argument has some merit, but was rather too simple, and rather sweeping. But it certainly deserved an airing. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 21 15:12:06 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 16:12:06 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062803.23782.13685999604391622469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > Nowhere is it written that Mr. Kak and others are not allowed to take > part in Indology-List. Then why does he not then come to Indology and > defend himself against the charges levelled? Actually, Subhash Kak was a subscriber to INDOLOGY for a while in 1993. However, he seemed mainly to want to post copies of his articles to the list, full text. I wrote and asked him no to do this, but he persisted. I think I asked him again not to do this, and then he resigned. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 21 15:25:31 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 16:25:31 +0100 Subject: Quality Intellect In-Reply-To: <20001021114411.13300.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227062805.23782.18033559484466134960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Ven. Tantra wrote: > I would like to suggest that essential quality does > not in any way require "qualification," and that the > sole requirement for participating in this Electronic > "Indian Studies" Forum is that one be in possession of > a quality intellect. I'm sorry, but no. I founded this list with the explicit idea that it was for people who had quality intellects AND had used them for six or more years in the full-time study of Indian history and culture. Less-qualified people are welcome to lurk, but not to post, especially on topics they feel passionate about. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 21 15:45:10 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 16:45:10 +0100 Subject: Kak review Message-ID: <161227062807.23782.6693511972288047070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It occurred to me that list members who do not habitually read the history of science journals may not be aware of an important review by Kim Plofker of Kak's Rgvedic Astronomical Code book: _Centaurus_ 38 (1996), 362--364. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 21 21:37:06 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 17:37:06 -0400 Subject: English translation of Siddhanta Kaumudi Message-ID: <161227062831.23782.18161328713463009967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I am looking for an english translation of the Siddhanta Kaumudi and see the following three listed in the Library of Congress catalogue. 1) The Siddhanta Kaumudi of Bhattoji Dikshita, Edited and translated into English by S. C. Vasu and V. D. Vasu, Allahabad, The Panini office, 1907 (available in reprint). 2) Sri Bhattoji Diksita's Vaiyakarana Siddhanta Kaumudi, the standard Sanskrit grammar: an analysis in English by P.V. Naganatha Sastry, Motilal Banarsidass, 1974-1983. 3)Siddhanta-kaumudi, Karaka-prakarana of Bhattoji Diksita, editted with an elaborate English exposition & critical annotations by Bishnupada Bhattacharya, Calcutta:Sanskrit Pustak Bhandar, 1974. Which one would you recommend as the best and most accurate translation. Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Oct 21 23:45:08 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 19:45:08 -0400 Subject: Quality Intellect Message-ID: <161227062840.23782.16055260528051639006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/21/00 11:26:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK writes: > I'm sorry, but no. I founded this list with the explicit idea that it was > for people who had quality intellects AND had used them for six or more > years in the full-time study of Indian history and culture. > > Less-qualified people are welcome to lurk, but not to post, especially on > topics they feel passionate about. Perhaps the whole list is familiar with the old proverb that distinguishes between the wise man and the fool. Well, you can explain a point to a fool 10,000 times, and without fail he will continue to miss it, whereas a wise man will need to be told only 1,000 times. By my unofficial count, we are about to reach the point where we will be easily able to distinguish the wise from the fools, at least when it comes to this one point: To repeat Dominik's point yet again [nearing 1,000 times, by my unofficial count]: this list is intended for trained Indologists. If you are not one, you should be lurking, and not flooding the list with your unconsidered or poorly considered but no doubt passionate views. As Steve Farmer's recent post confirms, there are other e-mail lists where your unconsidered or poorly considered but nevertheless passionate views, or even your hate-filled religious and political views, if indeed you have them [and if you are fools you will surely have them], will be not only welcomed but encouraged and even celebrated. So please for your own sakes join those lists, attack Indology and celebrate India as the cradle of all civilization without any serious objections whatsoever from any scholars of any kind whatsoever. Please do. Why waste your own time, never mind ours? Good luck to you all. George Thompson . From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat Oct 21 14:49:41 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 20:19:41 +0530 Subject: making of a cultural man Message-ID: <161227062797.23782.10971851516460692343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer's assertion (18 October) that the pseudo-indological endeavours of U S -based Indian engineers might be due to their defective education back home raises some pertinent questions: (1) If the fault lies with the education, then the class-fellows of the U S-based engineers who have remained back in India should also show similar traits. Is this the case? (2) If we look at engineer graduates from England, Scotland ,France and Germany,is the cultural spread among them of the same order of magnitude as the spread in their education system? (3) What are the factors that may in principle go into making a cultural man? Can one say that all factors other than technical education are irrelevant or immaterial? (4) What role does geographical displacement from one's natural habitat play in shaping the cultural perception of an individual or a group? rajesh kochhar From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Oct 21 21:15:40 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 22:15:40 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062827.23782.1469072488877906996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prasad Velusamy" To: Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 8:26 PM Subject: Re: "Science" in India > . It is interesting that the term Dravidian, > which means "Tamil-like" in Sanskrit, Does 'Dravida' in Sanskrit mean Tamil-like or Tamil itself? then where does it leave terms like Pancha dravida and Dramidacharya? From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 22 02:40:08 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 22:40:08 -0400 Subject: Appeal to Techies! Message-ID: <161227062842.23782.11337903317071560509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members The word Indology looks like a generic word, but this specific list has a linguistic orientation. Research and documentation of Indological works is its main strength. Please do not expect this list to solve world hunger. Those who are technically oriented (there are many, and the numbers are going to multiply in coming years), and like to participate in research ventures not covered by this or any other lists may please contact me with their ideas. I have projects for those who want to take up independently. Hopefully we can work out something good. I call it "Applied Indology". I am not going to be organizing anything, what you do is entirely your responsibility and your property and you publish on your own web site. There is no limit to what you can claim, as long as you justify with results. There will be no affiliation to any organization. We may start with some egroup if necessary. Hopefully this will turn the creative energy into meaninful work. Please check my site for clues. In general, there are many areas of Indology that need practical efforts from scientific and mathematical community. For example, one such area is to proactively speculate and understand Vedas, Avesta, Tamil or other mantras, not just in terms of checking grammar or dictionary, but in terms of their actual meaning, and to speculate on the possibility if new scriptures can be realized in future. I am signing off Indology as I have tons of work to do. Thanks to the list for their dedication to Indology. Let us not think whether our work is appreciated today or not. Let us think of decades or centuries ahead. Some one will thank us for our work. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli http://homes.acmecity.com/friends/harmonica/301 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 21 22:48:53 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 00 22:48:53 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062837.23782.3688637931980297955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The question should not be why are Farmer and Witzel pursuing this matter, but why are Indian scientists so silent in their support? Have they been intimidated? As Thoreau is reputed to have said in response to Emerson's question after Thoreau had been jailed after standing on some point of principle, "The question is not why am I here, Brother Emerson, but why are you still out there?" My respects to you, Brother Farmer. David Salmon >>> Not just Indian Scientists. Even the Western Indologists. I have seen none crusading other than Dr. Witzel, a lone exception Best regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 22 07:17:51 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 08:17:51 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062844.23782.9495507778652354008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I disagree with your view. I think Farmer was reasonably civil and >respectful, though he should have realized he would be poking a stick into >a beehive. I think that many of the objections you raise are actually to >the Outlook article. Someone who promotes views you disagree with is not, >thereby, necessarily disrespectful. I beg to differ. Farmer knew exactly what he was doing when he took it upon himself to be deliberately snide and insulting. He could have simply posted the URL of the Outlook article and left it at that. He chose to add his own remarks to it. There is absolutely no valid reason for him to have made false generalizations about the overall quality of Indian education. At least one list member, who is not a scientist/engineer, and who is not an Indian, thought that Farmer went over the line too. Dominik, may I point to another instance from not too long ago? On 16 July 2000, you threw Shrisha Rao out of this list, for expressing his own opinion about a person whom many Indologists anyway like to hate. Lance Cousins thought you had over-reacted, and Ashok Aklujkar noted that Shrisha had made several informative contributions in the past. He also hoped that Shrisha would be allowed to rejoin, but if I know Shrisha right, he would not do so, even if specifically invited. Now we have Farmer insulting an entire population and an entire nation, and Samar Abbas piping in, with his own charmingly unique perspective. And for some strange reason, you feel the need to defend Farmer's insults as an attempt to "understand" a small number of people. With all due respect, I am deeply disillusioned. Perhaps this reaction of mine is only due to my abysmal scientific education, sans humanistic training, for which I paid less than Rs. 5000 over four years. Straightforwardly yours, Vidyasankar ps. You do have the option of refusing membership to subscribers, you know. I wonder why people are allowed to join the list, some of them under two or three accounts, only to be slapped around for all their interest. Maybe you should revisit the lurking option. Never works well in mailing lists, especially if hot topics like non-existent horses are being discussed regularly, and with great vigor. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Oct 22 07:56:31 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 08:56:31 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062847.23782.18384954465152083131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I don't think Steve Farmer was insulting anybody--just questioning the quality of certain systems of education, surely a legitimate concern of academics everywhere? Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Vidyasankar wrote: >Now we have Farmer insulting an entire >population and an entire nation, From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 22 08:27:48 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 09:27:48 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062849.23782.3147582220511711744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Subrahmanya S. wrote: > Standard model ? Based on that flawed assumption you extrapolate that > the others are wrong. How are you so sure that your standard model is > close to the truth - it has its origins in a racist past and arrogant > present. The standard model is not based on racism, but on the dispassionate scholarship of people from various countries, including India, over a period of two centuries. It may not be perfect, but a lot of people have done their best to look at all the evidence and draw conclusions from it. > It is ok to be partisan - but please do not present it is objective > scholarship. I think you are confusing scholarship with football. In scholarship it is okay to be wrong! (Thank goodness!) In fact, from a certain point of view all serious scholars are wrong all the time. The search for academic truth is a process of approximation. > Considering the history of mistranslations and misrepresentations > that europeanist scholars have indulged in from anaasa to amaavasu > they cannot be trusted anymore. This is lame conspiracist thinking. First, you would be hard put to it to demonstrate to dispassionate scholarship that the great translators have really made widespread systematic and deliberate errors in their work, i.e., errors beyond the bell-shaped curve that everyone has to live with. Second, it would be impossible to establish to dispassionate scholarship that any particular selection of translation errors was part of a conspiracy of European scholars. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 22 08:33:37 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 09:33:37 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062851.23782.1091607095798769217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > In earlier times, you were expelling people for some violations. I > have not been very clear what you consider research and what you would > definitely consider an opinion. People get expelled from INDOLOGY for quantitative errors, not qualitative. I have never expelled anybody on the basis of their views. I have been very careful and very explicit about this, and I stand by the record of of the list on this matter, which is impeccable. People get expelled (after warnings) for repeatedly breaking the rules about size and frequency of their postings. These rules are explained very clearly in the "scope and rules" documents on the list's website. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 22 16:35:06 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 09:35:06 -0700 Subject: OUP website, .. Message-ID: <161227062869.23782.15470170562538583773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > In recent years, there many good and inexpensive > paperback editions published by Oxford University > Press in India and Pakistan. Are there any websites > from OUP India and Pakistan? What is the URL > address? As far as I know, OUP India does not have a web adddress. But you could go to the OUP web site and search for a title published by OUP India, say, the Anthology of Modern Indian Poetry by Ramanujan and Dharwadker (or Viraha Bhakti by Friedhelm Hardy) and then ask for "More titles like this". That will get you many more OUP India titles. Hope this helps, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 22 08:39:18 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 09:39:18 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062853.23782.5403712033573648594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > Not just Indian Scientists. Even the Western Indologists. > I have seen none crusading other than Dr. Witzel, a lone exception This is an interesting point, and I think the answer may be disappointing to some on this list. The fact is that the Invasion/Out of India debate is not of interest to most professional indologists. It is not a controversial matter amongst professionals actually working, teaching, and writing at the university level in the field. It is a complete non-issue, and most indologists have far more important and interesting things to do. That Witzel is willing to engage with public opinion on this point is a reflection of two things: he is the current world expert on Vedic life and society, and he has the energy and willingness to talk to a wider cirle of people than his professional peers. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sun Oct 22 18:42:30 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 11:42:30 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062878.23782.175396254058248436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you saying that the way to get along with the fascist menace in India is to keep your head down and say nothing much? Then perhaps "Western" Indologists still have a proper, non-colonial function to play in Indian scientific and political life, if only to call attention to the facts. David Salmon ----- Original Message ----- From: V.C.Vijayaraghavan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: "Science" in India But when Rajaram is treated as tip of the fascist iceberg in India and keep repeating then you run into problems. . . . In India , many intellectual professions like Indology are politicised and you are running into a political crossfire escpecially if associated with a veteran leftist protogonist like The Frontline. As long as you keep clear of the poltical battles in India . . . you are not inviting anybody's base passions. From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 22 19:02:07 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 12:02:07 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062881.23782.4193915210232904409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "V.C.Vijayaraghavan" wrote: ... ... In India , many intellectual professions like > Indology are politicised and you are running into a political crossfire > escpecially if associated with a veteran leftist protogonist like The > Frontline. Give us a break. Frontline a magazine by the very traditonal Iyengar brahmin institution "The Hindu" is leftist?! > To some extent , you have also fallen into the trap of steoreotyping Indians > as unbalanced and unreasonable , but let me and other Indians take it as one > off and does not mean anything more I feel that Indians in thsi context has no sense. There are serious Dravidian(ists) who refuse to be grouped under that banner, particualrly in this context. All that we have is that a subgroup of "Indians" not only refuse to accept hard evidence but manipulate archaeological evidence that questions their own preferences for theories of their ethnic origin. A few months ago a 25-year old Indian computer consultant started this OIT topic on his own and when I said the OIT is mainly socio-political without reasonable scientific basis, he immediately asked me "Are you a Hindu, Chandra?". That clearly shows the systemic nature of the problem and the strength of the propaganda. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA Sun Oct 22 11:33:20 2000 From: asharan at ENGR.MUN.CA (Anand M. Sharan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 12:33:20 +0100 Subject: RESPONSE TO GEORGE THOMPSON Message-ID: <161227062858.23782.17191877488662206987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am signing off now but, before I leave I would like to explain the what is happening on this web site, as far as the Indians are concerned , to the best of my knowledge. The intellectuals,and the professionals involvement in the matters of the country is nothing new for India. Prior to the independence, Dadbhai Naoroji was making representations of the Indians in the British Par;iament, and there wer many others. As a matter of fact, the Indian Congress Party stated out in Calcutta, and which was encouraged by a British judge amongst the intellectuals. Formation of Pakistan was engineered by the intellectuals first . Gandhi, Nehru etc went to England, had their law degrees there, and saw the vision of the independence . Before the independence, the intellectuals were going for the law degree. There was not much in engineering in India at that time. In post independence India there was a massive industrialization drive, and the intellectuals went for engineering as their first choice, and some went for medicine. This went on until the 70s. Then came the Computer Era, the best started going into that field . These individuals are just simply not satisfied with the salary but , many of them also seek the truth, and their identity which is quite human ( to look for one's own roots ) just like the Europeans consider Egypt as their heritage though not living in Egypt . What is the difference between the Europeans, and the Indians ? I hope this clarifies some problems that Witzel, Farmer, and you see that all of these people belong to the Saffron Brigade, which is obviously not so. Now coming to the professionalism , truth , and paper publishing . I sent the paper about the Santhals which is on my web site, and I have mentioned about it before on my postings . I was quite excited that I could link these people to the Indus Valley for sure, and their identity was undecided based on evidences discussed by people from the literature field ( precisely the same people for whom this web site is meant for ) . I enquired about the suitability of a journal in U.S.A. I corresponded with the editors of many journals on Ancient History , about this paper on the Indus Valley civilization . All of them said that their journals did not publish such papers . Then , I sent this paper to Cambridge , England thinking that Britain has had association with India, and possibly, it could be published there . The paper went for review, and I got the review back. It was rejected because, it was said that this work was based on Verma's work and that the script used by the Santhals is not Indus script . I wanted to send a rebuttal, but the editor was not interested in that . I wondered what kind of journal it was which does not allow for the author's rebuttals ? I publish papers in U.S.A., and the rebuttals are always allowed . Then, I looked into the ancient scripts in India . There is no mention of Santhal script . Even if it is not Indus script, did Verma not find a new script ? I continued with my research and found that it was indeed the Indus script . In engineering, it was difficult in U.S.A. for Indians to get recognized but not so now. The field of literature , I believe, has to come to grips with the reality, that even the Indians of the present age, not necessarilty only the so called trained indologists can make significant contribution, if you consider the Indus Valley civilization as a part of indology . If this civilization is not part of this group then why Witzel, and Farmer were criticizing Rajaram for so long ? Finally, Steve Farmer , from his writings, appears quite brilliant to me, but he also has to understand not to group every one into one Saffron Brigade . Regarding Witzel, I do not know. Thanks. Anand M. Sharan From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun Oct 22 10:35:17 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 12:35:17 +0200 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062856.23782.2562432513925615256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think it is very important for us to understand WHY the majority of European Indologists and some Indian contributors response to one and the same thing so differently. From the point of view of European (and I hope, of many Indian) scholars, Steve Farmer did nothing wrong. He just expressed his opinion about the system of technical education in another country. If he would say that, e.g., the system of technical education in Russia has serious defects, and my point of view, let us suppose, is different, then I would merely argue with him and produce some evidence in favour of my opinion. Without calling him names and suspecting him to have some political bias. Scholars from any European country and many Indian scholars too would response, I am sure, precisely in this way. But there appear now more and more people in India for whom such balanced and reasonable response to any kind of critical remarks is excluded. While staying once in India for a long time I had the opportunity to attend many lectures read by visiting Western scholars (or the Indian scholars working in the West). As a rule, the audience was friendly, but there always were present some people, whose only aim seemed to be to find in a lecturer's words something insulting for India, some signs of the Neo-colonialistic conspiracy, politically motivated distortion of historical facts etc. It reminded me the Soviet years in Russia, when so many people tried to make their cariers by way of showing themselves as the active fighters against "subversive bourguois science", as the general paradigm of the world scholarship used to be called... We must realise that even now so many Indians feel that their national pride is hurt as soon as they think about colonial period. What is strange, is that the pain of these memories does not die with the course of time, as it would be natural in the conditions of the modern world, but seems to grow every year. What is the reason for it? I think, the reason is that there are always some people ready to put salt on the wound. If the streets in a city are flooded two meters high after every heavy rain, who is to blame? Certainly, the British who built defective drainage sistem (a hundred years ago?). It is so convenient to blame Westerners for all. And this politics is converted into "scholarship" by such people, as Rajaram, Subhash Kak and others. It is due to their propaganda (and partly due to Said's "Orientalism") that the number of people in India who know nothing about Indology except that it is "subversive Western pseudo-science" grow and grow. As you may see yourself just reading the post on our list. I think that the only mistake of Steve Farmer is that he could not anticipate the inevitable response to his comments on an article in Outlook. He gave the Hindutva people one more pretext to display their "righteous anger" (and, by the way, to avenge him for his discovery of Rajaram's fraud). I pray all the participants of the list: please, be careful and think about the consequences of your statements. It was a painful experience to read some letters full of blind hate, written by totally disoriented people. I can feel nothing but pity for them. With all my heart I wish them to turn back to the great principles of Hinduism, to get rid of hatred and other affects and to obtain peace in their souls. Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valerie J Roebuck" To: Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: Re: "Science" in India > I don't think Steve Farmer was insulting anybody--just questioning the > quality of certain systems of education, surely a legitimate concern of > academics everywhere? > Vidyasankar wrote: > > >Now we have Farmer insulting an entire > >population and an entire nation, From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 22 12:09:36 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 13:09:36 +0100 Subject: English translation of Siddhanta Kaumudi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062860.23782.10376829532678279747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've always liked S C Vasu's translation. Very close to the commentaries. Actually, I don't know the others particularly. All the best, Dominik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 22 12:20:15 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 13:20:15 +0100 Subject: Appeal to Techies! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062862.23782.3245376510084833527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote: > The word Indology looks like a generic word, but this specific list has a > linguistic orientation. Research and documentation of Indological works is > its main strength. Please do not expect this list to solve world hunger. Yes, I think this is a large part of the problem. People who are not professional cultural historians of India are genuinely unaware that the word "indology" is a technical term for a particular professional field. They join the list expecting some general discussion about India, and are then surprised by all us prickly academics who have been subscribing to indological journals, reading and writing indological books, going to indological conferences, and so forth for decades. I welcome Bhadraiah's "Applied indology" initiative, and I sincerely hope that it may help people to find a forum where their views are appreciated and their contribution valued. I'll add a link to the INDOLOGY website. My family is full of people who enjoy so-called extreme sports: scuba, snow-boarding, rock climbing, and so forth. In this vein, I had been toying with the idea of changing this forum's name to "Extreme Indology". :-) The idea is that it's a list for people who take indology ALL THE WAY! Who do it day and night, year after year, who actually get sponsorship, wear an institutional T-shirt, go head-to-head at professional meetings, and so on. :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 22 15:43:25 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 15:43:25 +0000 Subject: OUP website, .. Message-ID: <161227062867.23782.4744730687270008410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In recent years, there many good and inexpensive paperback editions published by Oxford University Press in India and Pakistan. Are there any websites from OUP India and Pakistan? What is the URL address? Also, for Penguin books, India please. Many thanks. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Sun Oct 22 15:08:51 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 16:08:51 +0100 Subject: Semantics of Dravidian Languages Message-ID: <161227062865.23782.4068997522062943798.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is proposed that the Sanskrit word"Mekhala" is the import from the sub- stratum languages (Tamil, Munda, Gond, Santhal)of the ancientIndia. This is important from the point of view of the technical knowledge of the ancient Dravidian Indians. The pair"MaNi and Mekhala" is the mechanical engineering pair"Bolt and Nut".Dravidian words"Krakara and ParNa" form another pair of mechanical engineering words "Rack and Pinion". The ancient Indian linguistics has importance in the Indological Studies.The ancient Indian linguistic scholars proposed different doctrines-Sphota by Vedic Grammarians, Apoha by Buddhists and Sound atoms by Jains.To the best of my knowledge, these theories discussed the Semantics of Sanskrit and not of Dravidian languages. Were there similar efforts in the ancient India in regards to the Semantics of Tamil, Munda, Gond, Santhal etc.? Thanks. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Oct 22 21:31:42 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 17:31:42 -0400 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227062885.23782.9122996816153684225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/20/2000 5:59:17 AM Central Daylight Time, lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes: >...I wonder if you have read the paper > titled " zAtavAhana kings in ancient Tamilnadu" by A > Kamatchinathan of Annamalai University. ... I was not aware of this paper when I posted my message. My posting resulted from my reading of kaLaviyal. However, after L. Srinivas' message, I have obtained the paper and read it. It does not alter my conclusions. > The paper proposes a Munda origin for the Satavahanas > and argues for Satavahana origin of certain Tamil > kings like the atiyamAn's of takaTUr. ... > Explanation for commissioning of works such as the > "cAtavAkanam" and for issuing of Tamil bilingual coin > etc is then developed as a natural corollary. As I see it, the paper has several problems. For one thing, the etymologies of names Satakarni and Satavahana are not satisfactorily explained to be of Munda origin. Even more importantly, the name atiyamAn2 is simply not explained etymologically at all. One has to have a leap (of faith) to a neaby mountain, kutirai malai, to believe in this theory! But the paper does say, "...Sa:tava:hanas also were found to have favoured Tamil language and literature. For instance Sa:tava:han_am was a Tamil work written under the patronage of some Sa:tava:hana king. This work disappeared long ago (Ir_aiyan_a:r kal.aviyalurai 1943:6). More remarkably Sa:tava:hanas issued bilingual coins containing both Prakrit and Tamil phrases (Panneerselvam 1969). Scholars both Western and Eastern, have recently traced parallelisms between Ha:la's Sattasai, a collection of 700 erotic poems in Prakrit and some love poems of Sangam Tamil Anthologies (Hart 1976)." I see no merit in Kamatchinathan's statement: "The Andhra Sa:tava:hanas would not have patronized Tamil and Tamil poets unless they had close geneological connections with Tamilnadu." Royal patronage and geneological connections do not have to go together. Regards S. Palaniappan From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Oct 22 16:40:51 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 17:40:51 +0100 Subject: QUALIFICATIONS TO EXPRESS ON THIS INDOLOGY GROUP Message-ID: <161227062871.23782.7549658059034194603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Anthony Good asks the good question : Would we confidently drive over a bridge built by an indologist with no engineering training? I think not. Likewise, what basis is there for taking seriously an indological theory propounded by an engineer with no indological training? My answer is that the only basis for considering anyone's theory is its truth value. Otherwise, there is no basis for taking seriously a theory on modern India's politics or education from an Indologist or historian with no background in that area. -arun gupta From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sun Oct 22 17:54:03 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 18:54:03 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062876.23782.17165545066195390223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr Y. Vassilkov" To: Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 11:35 AM Subject: Re: "Science" in India > I think it is very important for us to understand WHY the majority of > European Indologists and some Indian contributors response to one and the > same thing so differently. > From the point of view of European (and I hope, of many Indian) > scholars, Steve Farmer did nothing wrong. He just expressed his opinion > about the system of technical education in another country. > But there appear now more and more people in India for whom such > balanced and reasonable response to any kind of critical remarks is > excluded. Let us not counterpoint 'balanced and reasonable" Western scholar vs Indians (scholars or otherwise) for whom balance and reasonableness does not mean a thing. I for one certainly don't take amiss Steve Farmer's criticism or shall we shall we say, concern about lack of humanistic training among India's technical elite. Nor do I ( and i think many Indians) see it as wicked criticisms of Rajaram's Harappan theories. As long as you treat it as episodic and not systemic , nobody can have a cause for a grievence. But when Rajaram is treated as tip of the fascist iceberg in India and keep repeating then you run into problems. It is not just what S.Farmer's scholarly criticism , but you have to take the totality of the context. In India , many intellectual professions like Indology are politicised and you are running into a political crossfire escpecially if associated with a veteran leftist protogonist like The Frontline. As long as you keep clear of the poltical battles in India - which are mostly a euphemsm for competitive name calling and labelling- you are not inviting anybody's base passions. To some extent , you have also fallen into the trap of steoreotyping Indians as unbalanced and unreasonable , but let me and other Indians take it as one off and does not mean anything more From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 22 23:44:43 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 19:44:43 -0400 Subject: Studies in Medieval Poetry of Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227062893.23782.3397036523838054052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, A friend of mine is planning to study the poetry of the Poet Saints of Maharashtra. He will be beginning studying modern Marathi in Long Island New York and then he will be going to Maharashtra for the period of June thru August 2001 to study there. Can anyone recommend any contacts (individual or institutional) in Maharashtra to help him learn both modern and old Marathi and to help guide him into the study of the poetry of the Poet-Saints. (I already have the contact from the old posting of Ashok Aklujkar for Prof. Arjunwadkar) Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Oct 23 00:49:44 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 20:49:44 -0400 Subject: Studies in Medieval Poetry of Maharashtra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062895.23782.4820654831013042032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For Marathi studies in Pune, contact Professor Ashok Kelkar in Pune. Other people who may be of help are people at the Maharashtra Sahitya Parishad in Pune. As far as I know, Professor G.N. Joglekar was in charge of it. A third contact is Professor Sarojini Vaidya (Prof. Ashok Aklujkar's sister). These people may be able to provide further contacts in Pune. And don't forget Anne Feldhaus, who spends a good deal of time in Pune. Madhav Deshpande On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear List Members, > > A friend of mine is planning to study the poetry of the Poet Saints of > Maharashtra. He will be beginning studying modern Marathi in Long Island > New York and then he will be going to Maharashtra for the period of June > thru August 2001 to study there. Can anyone recommend any contacts > (individual or institutional) in Maharashtra to help him learn both modern > and old Marathi and to help guide him into the study of the poetry of the > Poet-Saints. (I already have the contact from the old posting of Ashok > Aklujkar for Prof. Arjunwadkar) > > Many thanks, > > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Oct 23 02:14:50 2000 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 21:14:50 -0500 Subject: Studies in Medieval Poetry of Maharashtra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062897.23782.10660022947381718584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry, In addition to Professor Deshpande's suggestions, you might have your friend contact Mr. Manjul, who can be tracked down through BORI. He will certainly know where to direct your friend. Also if your friend intends to study Jnandev, Namdev, the Mahanubhavas, or any other texts in Old Marathi, he should get copies of Master's _A Grammar of Old Marathi_, Tulpule's _An Old Marathi Reader_, and Tulpule and Feldhaus' _A Dictionary of Old Marathi_. Christian At 07:44 PM 10/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >Dear List Members, > >A friend of mine is planning to study the poetry of the Poet Saints of >Maharashtra. He will be beginning studying modern Marathi in Long Island >New York and then he will be going to Maharashtra for the period of June >thru August 2001 to study there. Can anyone recommend any contacts >(individual or institutional) in Maharashtra to help him learn both modern >and old Marathi and to help guide him into the study of the poetry of the >Poet-Saints. (I already have the contact from the old posting of Ashok >Aklujkar for Prof. Arjunwadkar) > >Many thanks, > > >Harry Spier >371 Brickman Rd. >Hurleyville, New York >USA 12747 > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun Oct 22 19:27:08 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 21:27:08 +0200 Subject: : Re: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062883.23782.765036613848835875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Vijayaraghavan, you quote my last posting > > I think it is very important for us to understand WHY the majority of > > European Indologists and some Indian contributors response to one and the > > same thing so differently.> > From the point of view of European (and I hope, of many Indian) > > scholars, Steve Farmer did nothing wrong. He just expressed his opinion > > about the system of technical education in another country. > > But there appear now more and more people in India for whom such > > balanced and reasonable response to any kind of critical remarks is excluded. and then you answer: > Let us not counterpoint 'balanced and reasonable" Western scholar vs > Indians (scholars or otherwise) for whom balance and reasonableness does not > mean a thing. Please, read my letter again. I hope you will notice this time that I speak only about "some Indian contributors", who see thing differently from the majority of European and Indian scholars, I say that many Indian scholars will agree, I hope, that "Steve Farmer did nothing wrong" etc., and that just in the middle of your two quotations from my letter in the original there is the following sentence: "...Scholars from any European country and MANY INDIAN SCHOLARS TOO would response, I am sure, precisely in this [i.e. "balanced and reasonable"] way"... So, my question is: on what particular grounds do you ascribe to me the intention to ? When I say that SOME people in India do something wrong, in my opinion, - why do you understand it in such a way that I blame all "Indians (scholars or otherwise)"? I am afraid that in your initial reaction to my letter there was more emotions than logic. Please believe me, there is no "Anti-Indianism" in my letter. There could not be, because I study India all my life, and, as every other "Indologist", I love the country and its people. With my best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 23 05:03:54 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 22:03:54 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062906.23782.9279285557818690163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Dear Sir, As you put your contributions to the present issue to rest, kindly accept my thanks for your concurrent off-list assistance in translation and purport of _Chandogya Upani.sad_, 6. 14. 2. In addition, I would like to convey my deep appreciation for the balanced clarity of your views and appraisals, particularly in regard to current list themes. I feel sincerely privileged to be affiliated with you and this extraordinary list, which hosts such a diverse and, frankly, quite entertaining international community of intellectuals. In short, I find this electronic format to be a profoundly powerful learning tool. Salutations to the founder! All the same, as a newcomer to this community, my youthful enthusiasm has only now found itself quite dismayed by all the pseudo-professional [=power =status] posturing that's going on - that State Department brand of macho insensitivity that has shown its truly unbeautiful colors of late. I wonder are we catching this while gazing at our computer screens. It's like the Globalization of a human demeanor. Of course, Dominick is perfectly correct in saying that <> His equation is sound. Yet, now we are made to suffer someone else gratuitously referring to a whole perceived segment of our list community as "fools." http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=36821 I would hardly call such a posting "courteous," nor in the least bit subtle, whether it is coming from an amateur or a pro. How is one to know really? Re. "The S. Farmer Episode." I have not at all kept up on the two contending Great Horse Sacrifices, which would seem to stretch forth from No. 2 Divinity Avenue on the one hand, and the desperate saddleback ravines of Bihar, on the other. I can therefore make no competent statement on the content of Steve's article(s), which I have not read. But one nonetheless senses an odious "something" in the tone of his ("snide" did you call it?) and impassioned one-liners. And at the end of the day, I suppose it is just this sort of incendiary arrogance that some of us, particularly with deep South Asian roots, find so shockingly uncivil, hurtful, and downright violent. I mean, is this anything less "kids not yids" all over again? All are made to suffer. Quality intellect definitely suffers. Thanking you for your sustaining backbone presence in the community. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Oct 22 16:48:04 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (shrikant bahulkar) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 22:18:04 +0530 Subject: e-mail address Message-ID: <161227062874.23782.16819372439917764785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does any one know the e-mail address of Sofia Stril-Rever? Shrikant Bahulkar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 22 22:21:11 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 22:21:11 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062889.23782.13648045991212647868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > From the point of view of European (and I hope, of many Indian) >scholars, Steve Farmer did nothing wrong. He just expressed his opinion >about the system of technical education in another country. If he Dear Dr. Vassilkov, By your argument, nobody here is doing anything wrong, for everybody is simply expressing an opinion about something or the other, whether they know diddly-squat about it or not. We keep hearing two things often on this list. 1. People should not make statements without doing proper research. 2. This list is for trained Indologists, not for passionate amateurs to express their ill-founded opinions. Let us apply them here, shall we? 1. I invite Steve Farmer to enlighten us about the details of the research he has conducted into the quality of scientific education in India. It is not my contention that nobody should criticize it. I would just prefer that he who does the criticizing have earned the right to do so. Everybody is willing to listen to the blunt criticisms of the Indian system that someone like Prof. Indiresan frequently offers. Indiresan has the authority to criticize, Farmer does not. Just as most of the scientists and engineers on this list have not earned the right or the intrinsic authority to talk about most Indological issues. Now why is that so difficult for so many people to understand? Or is it that only established and a select few wannabe Indologists have a right to criticize and to express their opinions? 2. I invite Steve Farmer, or indeed, anybody on this list, to show that Farmer is indeed a trained Indologist. From what I can make out, he has as much training in Indology as I do, and perhaps less background than I. He invited much heat from established Indologists in the not very distant past, by airing his skepticism about the orality of Vedic transmission. One instance where he was right does not make him a general expert on ancient India or on contemporary Indian education. If I felt that he was being intentionally provocative, my response is not a knee-jerk reaction. Why do all of you assume that Farmer didn't know what response to expect? He has seen far worse reactions from the other passionate lists of which he is a member. He knew exactly what sort of beehive he was poking into. Perhaps the next line of defence will be to tell us that he didn't even know what it was that he was poking into. Do give the man credit for his own thoughts. One who intentionally attacks a beehive had better come adequately prepared to avoid the stings. I am also just expressing a wish that the experts on this highly self-referential and self-reverential list stand up to the same standards that they expect out of amateurs, and that they apply the same standards to all the amateurs, including Steve Farmer. This will be my last post on this rather futile thread. Let me just say that as a result of these kinds of discussions, certain attitudes keep getting reinforced, on all sides, which is not a very healthy sign for a scholarly group. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Oct 23 05:58:03 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 22:58:03 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062908.23782.16961837226182746338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What a surprise after returning for the weekend! A few quick notes, hopefully ending this thread: Dominik Wujastyk writes: > At base, what Farmer is trying to do is to find for himself some way of > understanding how Rajaram, Kak, and others can write history that is so at > variance with the standard model, and is based on poor evidence, > misleading argumentation, and so forth. How can someone do something so > inexplicable? Dominik characterizes my motives perfectly. I'd like to add that I think that the sources of Rajaram's errors are radically different from Kak's, as Michael Witzel and I suggested in our FRONTLINE article. David Salomon writes: > It should by now be obvious that poking a jackbooted fascist > with a stick is a risky business. Fascists are brutal but they > must have their historical myths, and they value compliant > "scientists" who will give their myths respectability. .... > The question should not be why are Farmer and Witzel pursuing > this matter, but why are Indian scientists so silent in their > support? Have they been intimidated? Thanks much to David and others for their moral support. The fact that this is risky business certainly doesn't mean that scholars should be silent. Nor, so far as native Indologists go -- if not scientists -- we shouldn't forget that Iravatham Mahadevan has offered his strong support for Rajaram's debunking, as has Romila Thapar, and many other native scholars on this List. Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: > Now we have Farmer insulting an entire > population and an entire nation, Ridiculous. Valerie Roebuck expresses my motives perfectly: > I don't think Steve Farmer was insulting anybody--just questioning the > quality of certain systems of education, surely a legitimate concern of > academics everywhere? Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes further: > I invite Steve Farmer, or indeed, anybody on this list, to show that > Farmer is indeed a trained Indologist. From what I can make out, he has as > much training in Indology as I do, and perhaps less background than I. ... > I am also just expressing a wish that the experts on this highly > self-referential and self-reverential list stand up to the same standards > that they expect out of amateurs, and that they apply the same standards to > all the amateurs, including Steve Farmer. Sundaresan opens the door to a topic on which I've wanted to remark for some time, especially in light of Dominik's (understandable) comments that he intended this List for professionals. I'm obviously a comparative historian and not an Indologist. But that hardly makes me an "amateur" of Sundaresan's sort. By definition, comparative historians move systematically from field to field. I've spent over twenty years (going back to when I received my doctorate in cultural history) as a premodern historian who studies the evolution of manuscript traditions in Europe, China, India, the Middle East, and Mesoamerica. Historical studies of manuscript traditions travel remarkably well from field to field: shifting from premodern studies of Greece or China or Mesoamerica to India is radically different from shifting from engineering to any premodern field. Religious commentators (say) dealing with Vedic or Buddhist or Hindu traditions employed remarkably similar exegetical methods as commentators concerned with Confucian or Aristotelian or Islamic or Egyptian texts. Obviously, in studying manuscript traditions cross-culturally, I can't be expert in all the premodern languages that were used in Eurasia or Mesoamerica, nor in all the modern languages that scholars use to discuss them. But I am competent in a half dozen or so of those languages, and am continually studying others (including Sanskrit). When I can't deal with a specialized topic on my own, I go to lengths to collaborate with reputable scholars who have skills that complement my own. In any event, after two decades of advanced research into premodern traditions I think that I can claim that I am possibly more qualified to raise scholarly questions in fields like Indology (and I always expect to raise more questions than I can answer) than (say) an engineer who turns to to the field without that same two decades of professional study -- let alone without the formal training in paleography, philology, and the history of philosophy, religion, and science expected of someone in my field. One of the problems in premodern studies -- for Sinologists and Western classicists no less than Indologists -- is that experts are so constrained by the specialized needs of their research that they normally have little time to study other Eurasian, Middle Eastern, or Mesoamerican fields that throw light on their own. This is one place where comparativists can play a significant catalyst's role, serving as a bridge between researchers in intellectually related but geographical dispersed fields. Recently I've had some moderate success bringing together Vedic specialists (including M. Witzel) and their counterparts in the Warring States period in China -- in ways that have already affected work in the latter field. In any event, can I suggest that the ridiculously early dates assigned to Vedic sources so cavalierly by the Rajaram or Kak or Talageri or Frawley types are immediately *recognized* as ridiculous by *any* trained premodernist -- if not by engineers who approach Vedic studies without that training? Insofar as I am a "lover" of premodern history, etymologically speaking (at least) I embrace the "amateur" label. But after two decades working with premodern texts, including some infamously difficult ones, I can safely reject the "amateur" label the way that Sundaresan intends it. Of his training, I know nothing. Steve Farmer From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sun Oct 22 22:28:32 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 23:28:32 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062891.23782.17675394382429073325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Salmon" >To: >Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 7:42 PM >Subject: Re: "Science" in India >Are you saying that the way to get along with the fascist menace in India is to keep >your head down and say nothing much? I am not saying that. There is enough political freedom in India to keep your head high and say whatever you want to say in politics . It is not as if you have to teach Indians to be poltically active and some poltical terminology. Epithets like fascists, pseudo-seculars, communal forces, etc are the staple of Indian political debate. Poltical discourse has become so much debased that there can be no concensus who is the fascist. Even Frontline and it's group have been called Brahminical fascists by a number of dravidian poltical groups for their one-sided coverage of the civil war in Srilanka where it reports the Srilankan government viewpoint only and the Tamil political forces are labelled "terrorists". Recetly the same magazine has also been called fascist for it's carte-blache to Chinese government for the extermination of Tibetan culture and ethnic cleansing of Tibetans. If you ask Tibetans and a number of Tamils, they might call your friends fascists >Then perhaps "Western" Indologists still have a proper, non-colonial function to play in >Indian scientific and political life, if only to call attention to the facts. Then you are wasting your time by playing these games because you are not imparting to Indians anything new. There is no fact which is known to you politically which is not known to ordinary people in India. Also, by your preference for political battles in India, you are abdicating your main concern viz Indology, that is , if you are an Indologist. And if you stand in the kitchen, don't complain of the heat David Salmon ----- Original Message ----- From: V.C.Vijayaraghavan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: "Science" in India But when Rajaram is treated as tip of the fascist iceberg in India and keep repeating then you run into problems. . . . In India , many intellectual professions like Indology are politicised and you are running into a political crossfire escpecially if associated with a veteran leftist protogonist like The Frontline. As long as you keep clear of the poltical battles in India . . . you are not inviting anybody's base passions. From m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 23 06:45:43 2000 From: m_orelskaya at YAHOO.COM (marina orelskaya) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 23:45:43 -0700 Subject: Regarding indology Message-ID: <161227062913.23782.12352638943777189419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Isn't it understood that being an indologist implies years and years of professional training (including linguistic). Indology is no less a profession that engineering. Reading tons of medical books does not make a doctor, so how can anyone without a proper education refer to himself as an indologist? For indologist, being an Indian or living in India could be considered as an additional qualification :) It is really sad to observe that a list meant for indological discussions is becoming a battlefield for some irrelevant issues. Perhaps, the list itself needs a more strict moderator. From another said, IMHO if we avoid answering to extraneous and provocative messages and concentrate on issues of our profession, it would discourage "indologists" from posting. Best regards, Marina Orelskaya Dr Marina Orelskaya c/o Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit Languages, University of Pune, Pune 411007 India __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Sun Oct 22 21:48:45 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 00 23:48:45 +0200 Subject: English translation of Siddhanta Kaumudi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062887.23782.162310137904414343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > I am looking for an english translation of the Siddhanta Kaumudi and see the > following three listed in the Library of Congress catalogue. > > 1) The Siddhanta Kaumudi of Bhattoji Dikshita, Edited and translated into > English by S. C. Vasu and V. D. Vasu, Allahabad, The Panini office, 1907 > (available in reprint). > > 2) Sri Bhattoji Diksita's Vaiyakarana Siddhanta Kaumudi, the standard > Sanskrit grammar: an analysis in English by P.V. Naganatha Sastry, Motilal > Banarsidass, 1974-1983. If I remember right, this is not a complete translation of the whole text, rather some sort of commentary that covers parts of it. > 3)Siddhanta-kaumudi, Karaka-prakarana of Bhattoji Diksita, editted with an > elaborate English exposition & critical annotations by Bishnupada > Bhattacharya, Calcutta:Sanskrit Pustak Bhandar, 1974. As the title says, this one deals only with the karaka chapter. > Which one would you recommend as the best and most accurate translation. Since the translation of Srisa Chandra Vasu is only one that is complete you do not have a big choice. I suspect, however, that the work of Bishnupada Bhattacharya improves that of Vasu, at least for this chapter. You may look also for the short versions of the Siddhantakaumudi by Varadaraja: 1. Laghu-, 2. Madhya-, and Sarasiddhantakaumudi. The first one (the Laghukaumudi) was translated into English by J. R. Ballantyne in the mid-19th century (still available in reprint). The last one (the Sarakaumudi) was edited and translated by G. V. Devasthali. Peter Wyzlic From tawady at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 23 03:32:48 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 04:32:48 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062900.23782.7561708757816071076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:28:32 +0100, V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote: >Even Frontline and it's group have been called Brahminical fascists by a >number of dravidian poltical groups for their one-sided coverage of the >civil war in Srilanka where it reports the Srilankan government viewpoint >only and the Tamil political forces are labelled "terrorists". Recetly the >same magazine has also been called fascist for it's carte-blache to Chinese >government for the extermination of Tibetan culture and ethnic cleansing of >Tibetans. If you ask Tibetans and a number of Tamils, they might call your >friends fascists I am glad that the double standards of 'The Hindu' group has been aired for the benefit of Indologists. The Hindu group was partially responsible for the Rajaram phenomenon to begin with by publishing his 'pet theories' and giving it, its stamp of approval. Now a sister publication, the Frontline which is nothing but a personal fiefdom of its communist (yes he is a card carrying member of an Indian Communist party) editor Mr. N. Ram (and a member of a VERY wealthy Madrasi family which owns The Hindu group of publications) has published a scathing attack on Rajaram thanks to Dr. Witzell and Dr. Steve Farmer. Unfortunately the fact that the article was published in the Frontline magazine makes the whole episode suspect to the English media reading middle class Indian public. It is because of Frontline's very partisan attitude towards the Tibetan freedom struggle, national question in Sri Lanka and the ruling BJP party. It is similar to cynicism an average American might feel for the New York Times endorsement Mrs. Hilary Clinton or anything 'New York' in general and New York Times particularly. Sorry for the digression, I will keep to a barest minimum:-) Raveen Raveen From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 10:44:06 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 06:44:06 -0400 Subject: Thank you re: English translation of Siddhanta Kaumudi Message-ID: <161227062923.23782.6189533906721342733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Dominic Wujastyk, Peter wyzlic and Timothy Cahill for the information on english translation of Siddhanta Kaumudi. Harry Spier _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 07:47:19 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 08:47:19 +0100 Subject: my background Message-ID: <161227062916.23782.7161342614606855196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: >Valerie Roebuck expresses my motives perfectly: > Then you certainly have a very curious way of expressing yourself. And you make rather unwarranted generalizations. As I said earlier, you are losing the esteem of potential friends. >ones, I can safely reject the "amateur" label the way that >Sundaresan intends it. Of his training, I know nothing. Thanks for the update re: your background, and also for opening the door to inform you and other list members of mine. You can find my published scientific papers in the Journal of Chromatography, Chemistry of Materials and Nature Biotechnology. I am the inventor of a US patent assigned to Caltech. So when I talk of science and education, believe me, I know what I am talking about. As an "amateur" Indologist, I believe my rather prolific presence on this list may be a bit tiresome to some members. However, it lacks for nothing in terms of quality, if I may say so myself. You can find a published paper of mine in The Adyar Library Bulletin, V. 62, 1998. Another is due to appear in the July 2001 issue of Philosophy East and West. I have done the most exhaustive comparative study of the hagiographies of Sankara to date. That paper should have been published a year ago, but is waiting for the journal to resume publication. Thanks to Dominik Wujastyk, you can find an online publication at the Indology website itself, under the link on "Important position or review papers on Indological topics," where I share company with a rather distinguished set of people. Over the coming weekend, I will be presenting a paper on Yoga and Advaita, as part of a seminar in the University of California, Los Angeles, organized by Chris Chapple of Loyola Marymount University (perhaps not mainstream enough?), and sponsored by the Doshi chair of Early Indian history at UCLA. So you see, when I talk of things Indian, again, I do know something of what I am talking about. I may not have as many years under my belt as you, but then, when you were doing your PhD, I was a child, going through an abysmal high school in India. Pardon me, some things become very personal. I don't particularly relish ill-formed opinions on contemporary India being bandied about by people who have just stepped into a study of ancient India, whether or not they have experience in other kinds of comparative studies. And oh, by the way, in case there is some doubt, that an Indian scientist-engineer -cum-amateur-Indologist happens to disagree with some of your opinions, or your methodology of making invalid general inferences, does not imply that he is a fascist, or even that he buys into other ill-formed theories about the date of the Rgveda. There are people like that, you know. Note - Invalid general inference :- Between 1912 and 1953, almost all British archaeologists, palaentologists, biologists and anthropologists (many distinguished names, from various Royal Societies) believed that the "Pildown man" was the missing link. They were all very happy to think that man had originally evolved on the British Isles. How am I supposed to "understand" this? What explains this attraction of British scientists to pop-nationalistic fervor? Why didn't highly educated individuals spot the hoax sooner? Why did they keep referring to the Piltdown "missing link", in order to deny the significance of the hominid fossil evidence from Africa? OBVIOUSLY - what passed for scientific education in the UK was abysmally poor. The narrow emphasis on producing defense related research, for sustaining Britain's presence in its colonies, and then for WW I and WW II, meant that they didn't get any proper humanistic training. As for the ethics of the thing, forget it. Clearly, I am entitled in making this argument, for the quality of education is a legitimate academic concern. Surely, the American, European (and I hope Indian) members of this list see the above as a bunch of baloney. So is Farmer's inference. I harp upon this, because I find it amazing that people feel the need to explain it away on his behalf. Nothing further, Vidyasankar From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 14:03:11 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 09:03:11 -0500 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062938.23782.7379269936814886861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Dominik Wujastyk >. >In scholarship it is okay to be wrong! (Thank goodness!) >In fact, from a certain point of view all serious scholars >are wrong all the time. The search for academic >truth is a process of approximation. > This is such a cop out ! Is this the only way you could defend mistakes in europeanist theology ? If making mistakes is ok ? why didnt you extend that logic to Rajaram ? Is it because he is a native who doesnt agree with Europeanist theology ? Also, it is interesting to note that not one of the self styled objective scholars had the integrity to criticize Witzels manipulations and coverups. Wheras they have no problems making sweeping comments about natives !! Regards, Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET Mon Oct 23 08:15:47 2000 From: jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET (John Richards) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 09:15:47 +0100 Subject: Regarding indology Message-ID: <161227062918.23782.7239589495081794621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > It is really sad to observe that a list meant for > indological discussions is becoming a battlefield for > some irrelevant issues. Very! I sometimes wonder if calling the List "Sanskrit-L" might make its purpose more clear. It does not only deal with Sanskrit Language and Literature of course, but that would always, presumably, be the core to which other issues would relate. It might discourage heated arguments about contemporary politics. Not that politics is a bad thing - just inappropriate on this kind of list. John Richards From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 23 04:26:22 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (shrikant bahulkar) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 09:56:22 +0530 Subject: Studies in Medieval Poetry of Maharashtra Message-ID: <161227062902.23782.8343777279035116129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the information supplied by Prof. Madhav Deshpande and Mr. Christian Lee Novetzke, I would recommend two names : Dr. Ms. Aruna Dhere, and Dr. Ms. Rekha Sane. Shrikant Bahulkar Harry Spier wrote: > Dear List Members, > > A friend of mine is planning to study the poetry of the Poet Saints of > Maharashtra. He will be beginning studying modern Marathi in Long Island > New York and then he will be going to Maharashtra for the period of June > thru August 2001 to study there. Can anyone recommend any contacts > (individual or institutional) in Maharashtra to help him learn both modern > and old Marathi and to help guide him into the study of the poetry of the > Poet-Saints. (I already have the contact from the old posting of Ashok > Aklujkar for Prof. Arjunwadkar) > > Many thanks, > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 10:53:47 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 10:53:47 +0000 Subject: Regarding indology Message-ID: <161227062925.23782.17254762148944570883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Reading tons of medical books does not make a doctor, so how can anyone >without a proper education refer to himself as an indologist? For >indologist, being an Indian or living in India could be considered as an >additional qualification :) Exactly who's an Indologist? Do mere college degrees or years of study on the subject sufficient for one to earn this title? But again, even as repeatedly pointed out in this list by "Indologists" themselves, it is a dialectical process and there're no absolutes in the subject - everything is relative. What passed for truth fifty years back has now been shown the door. What passes for truth today, might too suffer the same fate sometime in the future with contrary evidence. When this is the condition of the subject, on what base would one prove the credentials of an Indologist? An Indologist say fifty years back, who supported the AIT, when viewed with the evidence today - a totally mistaken historian and hence no Indologist at all! So let's not merely take refuge in degrees and papers published, but rather on the strength of the arguments posed. And let's also not forget the "native factor" in this whole thing. An Indian born and raised in the culture in India, naturally develops certain knowledge/instinct for the culture and ideals of his people. When he studies the ancient Indian literature he automatically relates what he studies with certain ideas/facts which form an integral part of his upbringing. For example in my house my father does the sandhyAvandanam (a tradition in the family for God alone knows how long) in the morning followed by the puja for the Gods. My mother too helps him in the puja, by arranging the flowers, preparing the naivEdhiyam (offering) etc. When a foreign Indologist studies this subject theoretically - he can perhaps give you all the details regarding the mantras chanted, their meanings, the materials used for the puja etc - but still the spirit in which the ritual is performed, the mood of the performer, what it means to him - these are things which even those, though Indian, but outside the tradition cannot comprehend, let alone those who do not belong to the culture. So an Indian, though he might not be academically trained, still can grasp the meaning of texts with more intuition and meaning than a foreign Indologist - because for the former it is just an idea which itself is limited by his level of knowledge on the subject which itself is conditioned by his own cultural background; But for the latter it is an integral part of his life and hence is more substantial and meaningful. Ofcourse, this might not apply to purely technical subjects, but still when one talks about humanities and its related fields, an Indian whatever be his background, still has an edge over the foreign Indologist, because of the simple fact that he belongs to the culture. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Oct 23 14:55:40 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 10:55:40 -0400 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227062942.23782.8089264517018611851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RB> witness steve farmers [sic] style of arguing: > He brands his opponents as beleivers [sic] in flying saucers, wooly [sic] > mammoth pilots and such like. SF>Can I point out that nowhere have I ever mentioned "beleivers in flying saucers, wooly mammoth pilots, and such like" (nice phrasing!). I assume that you are mixing me up with one of my previous avatars. RB> Well I am refering to your parallel avatar on another list(unmoderated). In any case, I am still right about yours and others attempts at branding your oponents and invoking authority at the slightest stimulus. What would be helpful is if you attack facts and theory rather than personalities same goes for everyone else. It is refreshing to see Witzels critique of Kaks interpretation of the rigvedic astronomical code vs your coverage of rajaram's background which only proved that he had infact worked in NASA. As for being an eminent or mediocre scientist how does that mater. A laudatory article (that too written in the 3rd person) is meant to impress lay people and should in any case be taken with a pinch of salt. Science is about experiments theories proofs etc not about personalities. Indologists tend to think they are above reproach. I believe that they are answerable to the people of india and a little more humility and transparency are in order. regards RB From William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE Mon Oct 23 10:00:20 2000 From: William.Smith at ORIENT.SU.SE (William Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 11:00:20 +0100 Subject: Address Requested In-Reply-To: <39F00DF7.B7F4FA65@hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <161227062920.23782.15454076787919667508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am seeking the address of a scholar in India: > >Prof. Prafulla Misra at Utkal University in Orissa. > >I should like to have the snail mail address and fax, if possible. > >Many thanks in advance. > >Ken Zysk >-- >Kenneth Zysk >Department of Asian Studies >University of Copenhagen Ph: +45 3532 8832 His address is: Times0000,FFC1,0000Prafulla K. Mishra Utkal University Vani Vihar Bhubaneswar 751004 mprafulla at hotmail.com W:L: Smith University of Stockholm >Leifsgade 33,5 Fax: +45 3532 8835 >DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark Email: zysk at hum.ku.dk > >If mail address fails use: zysk at spam.hum.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 766 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Oct 23 15:01:07 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 11:01:07 -0400 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227062945.23782.6616675079778719539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RB> witness steve farmers [sic] style of arguing: > He brands his opponents as beleivers [sic] in flying saucers, wooly [sic] > mammoth pilots and such like. > SF>Can I point out that nowhere have I ever mentioned "beleivers in flying saucers, wooly mammoth pilots, and such like" (nice phrasing!). I assume that you are mixing me up with one of my previous avatars. > > > RB> Well I am refering to your parallel avatar on another list(unmoderated). In any case, I am still right about yours and others attempts at branding your oponents and invoking authority at the slightest stimulus. What would be helpful is if you attack facts and theory rather than personalities same goes for everyone else. It is refreshing to see Witzels critique of Kaks interpretation of the rigvedic astronomical code vs your coverage of rajaram's background which only proved that he had infact worked in NASA. As for being an eminent or mediocre scientist how does that mater. A laudatory article (that too written in the 3rd person) is meant to impress lay people and should in any case be taken with a pinch of salt. > Science is about experiments theories proofs etc not about personalities. > Indologists tend to think they are above reproach. I believe that they are answerable to the people of india and a little more humility and transparency are in order. > regards RB From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Oct 23 15:15:46 2000 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 11:15:46 -0400 Subject: e-mail address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062947.23782.14849752126729920919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for the e-mail address of James Hegarty. Thanks! Patricia ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Oct 23 06:28:12 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 11:58:12 +0530 Subject: OUP website, .. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062911.23782.7412300584826311486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following page lists all branches and websites of OUP worldwide: http://www.oup.com.sg/oup_world_wide.htm So far, only the postal addresses of Indian branches are given - no websites yet, it seems. Samar On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > In recent years, there many good and inexpensive paperback editions > published by Oxford University Press in India and Pakistan. Are there > any websites from OUP India and Pakistan? What is the URL address? From SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK Mon Oct 23 12:43:48 2000 From: SKTJLBS at SRV0.ARTS.ED.AC.UK (John Brockington) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 12:43:48 +0000 Subject: conference announcement Message-ID: <161227062927.23782.9749822003973991984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, I forward below just the essential information about a conference next year, in order not to exceed too grossly the limits for a posting. Further details (hotel prices, registration form, etc.) can be obtained from Sanskrit Studies Centre, Office of the President, Silpakorn University, 22, Boromarachachonnani Road, Ta Ling Chan, Bangkok-10170, Thailand, or from Dr.Chirapat Prapandvidya (chirapat at su.ac.th) -- or I can forward them. FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT Sanskrit in Southeast Asia The Harmonizing Factor of Cultures An International Conference Organized by Sanskrit Studies Centre and The Department of Oriental Languages, Faculty of Archeology, Silpakorn University, Bangkok, Thailand Background: Sanskrit as language and literature has exercised a tremendous effect on the mental life of Southeast Asia. The study of Sanskrit is, therefore, indispensable for the deep understanding of the culture, religion and philosophy in the region. Sanskrit can be seen as factor that cements and harmonizes multicultural societies and as cohesive element among Southeast Asian nations. Sanskrit Studies Centre, Silpakorn University, an important institution of Sanskrit learning in Southeast Asia, proposes to hold an international conference on the above-mentioned topic. You are cordially invited to participate so as to establish a cultural harmony through this academic event. Other details of the conference are as follows: Objective: * To bring into the limelight the important role of Sanskrit as a non-sectarian vehicle that has nurtured the cultures of Southeast Asia. * To look into the contribution of Sanskrit to achieving the higher goal of the gospel of love, peace and harmony between the peoples and nations for the welfare of humanity. * To disseminate the role of Sanskrit in promoting cultural pluralism and social cohesion in Asia, especially among Southeast Asian nations. * To bring scholars, researchers and interested persons together to discuss and interact, so as to come to a meaningful conclusion. When and where? Date for the conference: May 21-22, 2001 (Cultural tour, May 23, 2001) Venue: Royal River Hotel, Bangkok Theme of the Conference: Sanskrit as the Strong Cultural Base of Southeast Asia Sub-themes: 1. Sanskrit studies in Southeast Asia: Past, present and future. 2. Sanskrit epics and Puranas and their relations to Southeast Asia. 3. Impact of Sanskrit language and literature on Southeast Asia. 4. Buddhism and Brahmanism: Their interaction and impact on Southeast Asia. 5. System of Ayurvedic medicine: Its impact on Southeast Asia. 6. Impact of shastras on Southeast Asian polity, art, architecture and modern sciences. 7. Impact of Sanskrit on philosophy in Southeast Asia. 8. Sanskrit epigraphy in Southeast Asia. 9. Astrology and astronomy in Southeast Asia. 10. Agama and tantra in Southeast Asia. Professor J. L. Brockington Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies University of Edinburgh 7-8 Buccleuch Place Edinburgh EH8 9LW U.K. tel: +131 650 4174 fax: +131 651 1258 From giravani at JUNO.COM Mon Oct 23 11:46:50 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 12:46:50 +0100 Subject: Error correction Message-ID: <161227062929.23782.5213287672218941551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry for the error in typing.The correct word is "Mekhalaa".Thanks. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Oct 23 12:47:53 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 13:47:53 +0100 Subject: : Re: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062932.23782.10031170034893422688.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr Y. Vassilkov" To: Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 8:27 PM Subject: : Re: "Science" in India > Dear Mr. Vijayaraghavan, > > you quote my last posting > > > > I think it is very important for us to understand WHY the majority > of > > European Indologists and some Indian contributors response to one and > the > > same thing so differently.> > From the point of view of European > (and I hope, of many Indian) > > scholars, Steve Farmer did nothing wrong. > He just expressed his opinion > > about the system of technical education in > another country. > > > > But there appear now more and more people in India for whom such > > > balanced and reasonable response to any kind of critical remarks is > excluded. > > and then you answer: > > > Let us not counterpoint 'balanced and reasonable" Western scholar vs > > Indians (scholars or otherwise) for whom balance and reasonableness does not > > mean a thing. > > Please, read my letter again. I hope you will notice this time > that I speak only about "some Indian contributors", who see thing > differently from the majority of European and Indian scholars, > I say that many Indian scholars will agree, I hope, that "Steve Farmer > did nothing wrong" etc., > and that just in the middle of your two quotations from my letter in the > original there is the following sentence: > "...Scholars from any European country and MANY INDIAN SCHOLARS TOO > would response, I am sure, precisely in this [i.e. "balanced and > reasonable"] way"... > > So, my question is: on what particular grounds do you ascribe to me the > intention to Indians (scholars or otherwise)">? Dear Dr.Vassilikov One gets the message from the para quoted that western scholars are the repository of balance and reasonableness while such is not the case with Indians. The cultural ideal in India is 'stithapragnya' and Indians too have to look at their own country in a balanced way and compare it with the views given by others. After all more Indians have a long-term first hand knowledge of educational and political situations both in India and the west than the western scholars having a similar quantity of transnational experience. I mean there are tens of thousands of Indians who have studied, worked and being governed both in India and the west compared to few hundred western scholars at the most Hece if the reactions of some Indians seem to be far out of sync than what the western scholars had hoped for, it might as well show the depth of misunderstanding of western scholars than any unreasonableness of Indians. After all some of the harder reactions of the Indians are political in nature and a reaction to having played into the hands of politcal elements in India > When I say that SOME people in India do something wrong, in my > opinion, - why do you understand it in such a way that I blame all "Indians > (scholars or otherwise)"? I did not say you meant all Indians;. When I said Indians , it does not mean all Indians > I am afraid that in your initial reaction to my letter there was more > emotions than logic. > Please believe me, there is no "Anti-Indianism" in my letter. There > could not be, because I study India all my life, Without accusing you of anything , I can point out that there is no direct relationship between studying India all one's life and not hating it. There have been christian missionaries in the last few centuries in India and studying India all through their life , but who were prejudiced against heathen beliefs , cultures and traditions till their last breath. Even many colonial administrators were good students of India but who could never bring themselves to shed their anti-Indianism. These gentlemen-Indologists of yore are a good negative proof of what you are saying and, as every other > "Indologist", I love the country and its people. > With my best regards, > > Yaroslav Vassilkov I don't know about every other Indologist, but I take in what you are saying about yourself and thank you for the same Regards Vijayaraghavan From missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 15:21:47 2000 From: missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM (Narayan Sriranga Raja) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 15:21:47 +0000 Subject: Wines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) Message-ID: <161227062972.23782.5909970152796565600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My apologies. That was only to grab your attention. No whines here. Instead of speculating about the wretched state of Science/Engineering education in India, let's look at some unbiased rankings: Every year, "Asiaweek" (a member of the "Time" family of magazines) publishes a ranking of "Asia's Best Science and Technology Schools". Please take a look at the Year 2000 rankings at: http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/features/universities2000/scitech/sci.overall.html A total of 39 Science/Technology Institutes from all over Asia (including Australia and Japan) are ranked. Of these, eight (the largest number from any single country) are from India. Five of the top eight schools are from India. Even Japan (which, nobody can deny, produces excellent engineers) has only five schools on the list. But can one really rely on magazine articles to make sweeping judgements about contries? Well, at least some of us can. This is for their benefit. Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Oct 23 14:38:45 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 15:38:45 +0100 Subject: Regarding indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062940.23782.12212286091319193761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > Exactly who's an Indologist? I've characterised the indologists in the "scope" document for this list, in the following terms: As a rough guide to subject content, if you enjoy receiving journals like the JAOS, JRAS, BSOAS, IIJ, etc., then INDOLOGY is for you! If you don't recognize these acronyms, think twice before joining. The forum is targetted at professional participants in Indological studies, and is not primarily a forum for discussions with undergraduates or scholars from other fields who have an amateur interest in Indian history and culture. For example, if you do not recognise any of the above acronyms, or never read any of these journals, or if you never attend academic conferences in some aspect of INDOLOGY, then perhaps another forum would be more appropriate for you, since you will not be on the same wavelength as the other members. In a rather Buddhist manner, I think, I've tried to characterise indologists by what they habitually do, not by what they are, or what formal qualifications they have. > Do mere college degrees or years of study on the subject sufficient > for one to earn this title? More or less, yes. > So let's not merely take refuge in degrees and papers published, > but rather on the strength of the arguments posed. It is impossible to know the "strength of an argument" unless you have a thorough grounding in the field. > And let's also not forget the "native factor" in this whole > thing. An Indian born and raised in the culture in India, > naturally develops certain knowledge/instinct for the culture > and ideals of his people. This "certain knowledge/instinct" can be profoundly misleading too, of course. Having grown up in a culture is absolutely not the same as having an analytical knowledge of that culture. That's why some Hindu students fail courses in Hinduism (yes, it happens!). > So an Indian, though he might not be academically trained, still > can grasp the meaning of texts with more intuition and meaning > than a foreign Indologist - I'm afraid your argument is based on a grossly oversimplified fantasy of the foreign indologist. Almost all the people I know who study classical India professionally (Indian and non-Indian) have complex, multi-racial, multi-cultural backgrounds, have lived in many countries, including India, and speak several languages. The ability of an indological scholar to enter empathetically into an understanding of Indian culture depends on a number of factors, including how self-reflective the scholar is, how good a writer, how well-educated, how interested, and so on. This applies regardless of birthplace, caste, or gender. You can't essentialize scholars on the basis of geographical origins in any simple or even worthwhile manner. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Mon Oct 23 04:52:40 2000 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 15:52:40 +1100 Subject: Deutsche Welle Sanskrit programmes on the net. Message-ID: <161227062904.23782.12883499619679659521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have just been sent this URL for listening to Deutsche Welle (radio?) programmes in Sanskrit. To hear it you need to have RealPlayer 8 installed (there is a link from the URL below). I have not tried it myself (I use Mac OS 8.0) and RealPlayer is not available (no longer available?) for that platform. http://kleist.dwelle.de/sanskrit/audio.html From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 20:43:12 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 16:43:12 -0400 Subject: new Indology list (post script before my signoff) Message-ID: <161227062956.23782.2258865367183067617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namrata wrote >Dominik is supporting India bashing and will find any excuse to >save his favorite white people or others who support white people >like >Thompson and Deshpande. Namrata Could you please write a research paper on fascists on this list and get it published in a reputed academic journal? (I know you can't.) I agree a new list is needed, wherein any one with any capacity can post; not necessarily those who have qualifications as specified by this list. But if the new list is used just for writing such stuff, any number of lists wouldn't help. I don't believe in peer reviews and publishing in journals because it is ultiamtely it is you who must stand responsible for your work. If your work is good they will catalog it and study it, or else you stand exposed. I see IndianCivilization is a serious list as of now(!) It may work, let me give it a try. Regards and bye Bhadraiah Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 16:57:50 2000 From: missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM (Narayan Sriranga Raja) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 16:57:50 +0000 Subject: Wines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) Message-ID: <161227062975.23782.7124374263924691266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the expected scholarly attainments of people on this list: there seems to be some difference in expectations here between the "techies" and the "real Indologists" as to what constitutes an idea worth listening to. Us techies are used to unambiguous mathematical proofs which we can work through for ourselves (no need to trust any figure of authority or say "Harrumph... I have a Ph.D. and 83 publications"). We don't need to learn Latin and read the original works of Copernicus and Kepler; in the twelfth grade, we can derive for ourselves, from first principles, "Kepler's Third Law". It takes maybe 15 minutes. We don't have to cite authorities to prove that the Earth is round. Nowadays, we can just look at a photograph of the Earth taken from the Space Shuttle. The photographs clearly show that the Earth is round. We don't need a Ph.D. and six years of postdoctoral experience to understand (some of) Einstein; in the mere first year of our Bachelor's degree studies, we can derive for ourselves, from first principles, the fact that E = mc-squared. It takes a few minutes. But unfortunately, that's not how we discuss the facts of Indian history. We are just told "This happened. That happened. If you don't believe me, you need to get a Ph.D., learn Old Ruritanian, and read the works of Ephraim Geezer, written in Swahili, circa 1577." It may be true. Yet, to an engineer, accustomed to neat, undeniable mathematical proofs for even the most complex ideas, this line of argument (proof by intimidation) can sound bogus. This may account for some of the friction we see on this list. Then there's Farmer, now running amok and laying waste to entire civilizations :-) :-) (hmmm... maybe he's an ancient Indo-Aryan -- that would explain his superior Horsepower). :-) Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 00:04:44 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 17:04:44 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062966.23782.5120910097505314414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does 'Dravida' in Sanskrit mean Tamil-like or Tamil itself? "Thamizh" gets modified in Sanskrit as dramiDa/draaviDa. >then where does it leave terms like Pancha dravida and Dramidacharya? Good question. Have the puranic authors who were writing about Pancha-draavi.das had the knowledge of traditional dravi.da lands? Best wishes, Prasad _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mlbd at VSNL.COM Mon Oct 23 11:52:13 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 17:22:13 +0530 Subject: OUP website, .. Message-ID: <161227062934.23782.2868708699600037678.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why don't you visit following websites: www.mlbd.com www.newagebooksindia.com Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > In recent years, there many good and inexpensive > paperback editions published by Oxford University > Press in India and Pakistan. Are there any websites > from OUP India and Pakistan? What is the URL address? > > Also, for Penguin books, India please. > > Many thanks. > R P Jain ---------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers (P) Ltd. 41, UA, Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011)-3974826,3918335,3911985,3932747 (011)-5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax: (011)-3930689, 5797221 Email:mlbd at vsnl.com , gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: http://www.mlbd.com & http://www.newagebooksindia.com From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 23 12:40:52 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Prof. D N Jha) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 18:10:52 +0530 Subject: Afghan, Baloch and Brahui Message-ID: <161227062936.23782.16278509100261292168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Yashwant To: Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 5:32 AM Subject: Re: Afghan, Baloch and Brahui > On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:00:41 +0100, Narayan R. Joshi > wrote: > > > Incidentally it is well known that many muslims with last name > Khan, are converts from Rajputs. Some very specific examples are > known. > > Yashwant > What about Maithil brahmins who continue to use the surname Khan? I know of some "high caste" brahmins from the Maithili speaking area of north Bihar still using the surname Khan. Best wishes, D.N.Jha From namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 18:18:59 2000 From: namratabose at HOTMAIL.COM (Namrata Bose) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 18:18:59 +0000 Subject: new Indology list Message-ID: <161227062949.23782.7752508131482010955.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Why are you complaining Bijoy? This is a white racist list. All know that. Instead of complaining, join http://www.egroups.com/group/IndianCivilization this man Dominik is supporting India bashing and will find any excuse to save his favorite white people or others who support white people like Thompson and Deshpande. He can tolerate Farmer, who cannot read anything serious in indology just because he is white. See how chicken hearted he is when he talks to christian fanatics like Robert zydenbos or to ISI pakistani agents like Samar Abbas.Only people who condone racism or have no self respect can remain here. Now I want D to cancel my membership of this list. I have had enough of his nonsense. No self respecting indian should stay in this list. Nobody who believes in fairness and in the equality of all races can stay in this list for one minute. Is Farmer a trained Indologist? Is he just lurking? Just the other month he posted 28 times on a minor matter. Dominik, you think that the idiot queen still rules India. Really speaking, she cannot even control her own dysfunctional family. Reading these sickening fascist emails from Salmon, Thomson, Vassilkov I think that the missing link in human evolution has been found. In some Indologists the reptilean part of the brain has not evolved to the human level. Dominik and other people should get asian girlfriends with the help of farmer. That is the only way they can escape the charge of racism. I want more Farmers and Dominiks to support indology. This way it will die faster :-) Namrata From: Bijoy Misra Dear Dominik, I must assume that this forum does not have any political agenda like many other forums have. I don't see the other forums because most of it are opinions. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mlbd at VSNL.COM Mon Oct 23 13:28:31 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 18:58:31 +0530 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062981.23782.11532148687587874314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Readers, While reading thru the Indology list almost on a regular I found quite a steadily growing interest in Indian "Science" almost all across the world. Therefore, shortly in the future we are going to launch a new series of books called INDIA'S SCIENTIFIC HERITAGE, the general editor of which is going to be Dr L M SINGHVI. The series will begin with a couple of volumes on VEDIC & JAIN MATHEMATICS & which would follow covering almost all the subjects within this field. Since such a venture has been undertaken by our publishing house for the 1st time & there's hardly any publisher in India or overseas who has done much in such a specialised field, so we'd be looking forward to "superior quality" manuscripts yet to be published by eminent scholars. However, whatever manuscripts we get for publication will be thoroughly examined not only from contents point of view, but its language style. Therefore, we'd be expecting lucid language & to be very precise it should be in READER & USER FRIENDLY, so that our customers or readers are not put off. For the sake of scholarship we'd like to invite manuscripts & all those who happen to work in these areas. Regards & best wishes R P JAIN -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Farmer To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: Re: "Science" in India > What a surprise after returning for the weekend! A few quick > notes, hopefully ending this thread: > > Dominik Wujastyk writes: > > > At base, what Farmer is trying to do is to find for himself some way of > > understanding how Rajaram, Kak, and others can write history that is so at > > variance with the standard model, and is based on poor evidence, > > misleading argumentation, and so forth. How can someone do something so > > inexplicable? > > Dominik characterizes my motives perfectly. I'd like to add that > I think that the sources of Rajaram's errors are radically > different from Kak's, as Michael Witzel and I suggested in our > FRONTLINE article. > > David Salomon writes: > > > It should by now be obvious that poking a jackbooted fascist > > with a stick is a risky business. Fascists are brutal but they > > must have their historical myths, and they value compliant > > "scientists" who will give their myths respectability. > .... > > The question should not be why are Farmer and Witzel pursuing > > this matter, but why are Indian scientists so silent in their > > support? Have they been intimidated? > > Thanks much to David and others for their moral support. The fact > that this is risky business certainly doesn't mean that scholars > should be silent. Nor, so far as native Indologists go -- if not > scientists -- we shouldn't forget that Iravatham Mahadevan has > offered his strong support for Rajaram's debunking, as has Romila > Thapar, and many other native scholars on this List. > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: > > > Now we have Farmer insulting an entire > > population and an entire nation, > > Ridiculous. Valerie Roebuck expresses my motives perfectly: > > > I don't think Steve Farmer was insulting anybody--just questioning the > > quality of certain systems of education, surely a legitimate concern of > > academics everywhere? > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes further: > > > I invite Steve Farmer, or indeed, anybody on this list, to show that > > Farmer is indeed a trained Indologist. From what I can make out, he has as > > much training in Indology as I do, and perhaps less background than I. > ... > > I am also just expressing a wish that the experts on this highly > > self-referential and self-reverential list stand up to the same standards > > that they expect out of amateurs, and that they apply the same standards to > > all the amateurs, including Steve Farmer. > > Sundaresan opens the door to a topic on which I've wanted to > remark for some time, especially in light of Dominik's > (understandable) comments that he intended this List for > professionals. I'm obviously a comparative historian and not an > Indologist. But that hardly makes me an "amateur" of Sundaresan's > sort. By definition, comparative historians move systematically > from field to field. I've spent over twenty years (going back to > when I received my doctorate in cultural history) as a premodern > historian who studies the evolution of manuscript traditions in > Europe, China, India, the Middle East, and Mesoamerica. > Historical studies of manuscript traditions travel remarkably > well from field to field: shifting from premodern studies of > Greece or China or Mesoamerica to India is radically different > from shifting from engineering to any premodern field. Religious > commentators (say) dealing with Vedic or Buddhist or Hindu > traditions employed remarkably similar exegetical methods as > commentators concerned with Confucian or Aristotelian or Islamic > or Egyptian texts. Obviously, in studying manuscript traditions > cross-culturally, I can't be expert in all the premodern > languages that were used in Eurasia or Mesoamerica, nor in all > the modern languages that scholars use to discuss them. But I am > competent in a half dozen or so of those languages, and am > continually studying others (including Sanskrit). When I can't > deal with a specialized topic on my own, I go to lengths to > collaborate with reputable scholars who have skills that > complement my own. In any event, after two decades of advanced > research into premodern traditions I think that I can claim that > I am possibly more qualified to raise scholarly questions in > fields like Indology (and I always expect to raise more questions > than I can answer) than (say) an engineer who turns to to the > field without that same two decades of professional study -- let > alone without the formal training in paleography, philology, and > the history of philosophy, religion, and science expected of > someone in my field. One of the problems in premodern studies -- > for Sinologists and Western classicists no less than Indologists > -- is that experts are so constrained by the specialized needs of > their research that they normally have little time to study other > Eurasian, Middle Eastern, or Mesoamerican fields that throw light > on their own. This is one place where comparativists can play a > significant catalyst's role, serving as a bridge between > researchers in intellectually related but geographical dispersed > fields. Recently I've had some moderate success bringing together > Vedic specialists (including M. Witzel) and their counterparts in > the Warring States period in China -- in ways that have already > affected work in the latter field. > > In any event, can I suggest that the ridiculously early dates > assigned to Vedic sources so cavalierly by the Rajaram or Kak or > Talageri or Frawley types are immediately *recognized* as > ridiculous by *any* trained premodernist -- if not by engineers > who approach Vedic studies without that training? Insofar as I > am a "lover" of premodern history, etymologically speaking (at > least) I embrace the "amateur" label. But after two decades > working with premodern texts, including some infamously difficult > ones, I can safely reject the "amateur" label the way that > Sundaresan intends it. Of his training, I know nothing. > > Steve Farmer > From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Oct 24 00:58:43 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 20:58:43 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062970.23782.13321386202295433517.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Very little in this discussion has surprised me, not even the bizarre and surely *racist* [indeed!!!} vituperation of one Namrata Bose. But one thing does surprise and distress me: that is the increasingly bitter posts of Vidyasankar Sundaresan. I have not had direct discussions with VS, because we work in different areas of Indology. But I have never questioned his right to be a member of this list. Furthermore, I frequently talk about this list and its activities with other members, privately and off-list, and in my experience references to VS have always been respectful and admiring. Admittedly, I do not always agree with VS, but I do recognize his competence, as do, I trust, most if not all members of this list. Let me assure VS and other native Indians on the list that the issue is about competence, and not about ethnicity. Engineers, like all others, of course are welcome -- as long as they are able to discuss scholarly matters in a scholarly manner. Why is this insistence on scholarly competence, on an explicitly scholarly list, after all, so offensive to so many? I don't get it. In any case, no one questions that VS is a scholar. Nevertheless, I am glad to see the departure of Namrata Bose and others like him. Perhaps we can get back to discussion of matters of genuine scholarship, instead of all the off-topic nonsense of the past few days. The thing about fools, BTW, is that you don't have to go out and point to them. They tend to point to themselves. George Thompson From samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 20:05:00 2000 From: samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM (Samira Sheikh) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 21:05:00 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062954.23782.17429167839379501002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have followed with interest the lively debates in Indology and it seems to me a shame if academic discussion were to be divorced from its political manifestations. Serious scholarship is worth defending. It is heartening that Indologists are being forced to speak out against the abuse and appropriation of their discipline. It is certainly a mystery why acolytes of Rajaram et al, many of them engineers, presumably scientifically trained, react so violently to scientific applications of history or archaeology, as demonstrated by the responses to Witzel and Farmer. Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that the Indian educational system (in common with many others, I am sure) gives minimal importance to any scientific questioning of culture and tradition, and places the study of history at the bottom of curricular choices. Matters are not helped if, as is the case at present, government-prescribed curricula begin to insert spurious claims for ancient Indian culture and praises of Hitler (see Communalism Combat, Dec. 1999, also http://www.sabrang.com), as in history textbooks for Gujarat. Taking issue with all the points made in the debate is hardly possible, but the ill-informed insinuations about senior scholar Romila Thapar need to be countered. (Sundaresan, Oct. 19) Professor Thapar, in her long career of teaching and research, has been one of only a handful who has stood up to be counted. She has become synonymous with ?leftist history? largely because she has consistently tried to counter pesudo-history and make the best of serious academic research available to a larger audience. She has authored school history textbooks (an important factor in drawing at least one person to the study of history), and the indispensable and highly accessible (and recently revised) History of India, vol. I. She regularly lectures and writes, combining original research with unvarying acuity and patience in taking on ill-informed and malicious attacks on professional historical scholarship. She taught for two decades at the Centre for Historical Studies, JNU, and before that at Delhi University, training scores of students. She has used every bit of whatever ?position and influence? she has had to promote the serious and unbiased study of history. While most other scholars prefer to avoid setting themselves against the abuse of their discipline in public, she is the last person who can be faulted on that score. From hart at POLBOX.COM Mon Oct 23 19:05:42 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 21:05:42 +0200 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5B74@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227062951.23782.10668562704300167701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:01 00-10-23 -0400, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: >Indologists > >I believe that they are answerable to the people of india > >regards RB> I would be curious to know on what grounds the peoples of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are excluded. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------- http://www.schering.pl - najciekawsze informacje medyczne! ---------------------------------------------------------- From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 22:07:07 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 22:07:07 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062960.23782.2486134513637055509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought I wouldn't post any more on this thread, but I have to clarify some points raised by Ms. Samira Sheikh. >that Indologists are being forced to speak out against the abuse and >appropriation of their discipline. It is certainly a mystery why acolytes >of Rajaram et al, many of them engineers, presumably scientifically >trained, react so violently to scientific applications of history or Let me make clear that I am not an acolyte of anybody. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of Indian scientists and engineers couldn't care less one way or the other about the Indus seals or about horses. And so long as they are told that they are unwelcome, they won't get any interest. We only wonder why a few idiosyncratic people are being thought of as representative of Indian scientists and engineers. >archaeology, as demonstrated by the responses to Witzel and Farmer. Perhaps >the answer lies in the fact that the Indian educational system (in common >with many others, I am sure) gives minimal importance to any scientific >questioning of culture and tradition, and places the study of history What the Indian educational system does with culture and tradition is to present a predetermined model of caste as the answer to everything in India. This leaves the students more confused than ever before. You are right, no questioning of the dogma is allowed, and that dogma has been predominantly that of a particular school of thinking. The reason I raised Prof. Thapar's name is that in Frontline, she said that she had proposed the rejection of the old Aryan invasion theory, way back, in 1968. The only reference she provides is a talk at ICHR, the proceedings of which are quite inaccessible. I have certainly not read a single publication by her that supports this assertion. Not her popular book on the History of India, not her book on Asoka and not her book on the formation of the state in the times of Gautama the Buddha, and not in the reports of the lectures she has given in numerous places. Either she is trying to claim credit for something she never really said, or she chose, for *political* reasons, never to publicize the fact that she had reason to revisit the old paradigm. Well, in a democracy, there are reasons and there are reasons. There is no point in accusing one's opponents of political motives when one has political motives of one's own. The argument becomes not about the merits of an issue, but about whose political motives are more palatable. However, I find it curious that a particular school of Indian intellectuals are very vociferous in crying foul at this point of time. If politics is all that important to you, work to throw out the BJP government in the next elections. The last I heard, India is still a democracy, isn't it? Other than that, I respect Thapar and her research quite a lot. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Mon Oct 23 21:12:34 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 22:12:34 +0100 Subject: new Indology list Message-ID: <161227062958.23782.2486633583196828123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This post is in bad taste, unfair and insuling to list members of whatever nationality. If anybody is found making racist remarks, it must be confronted on the spot instead of making wild generalizations and accusations which lead us nowhere. I have not found anyone making remarks which can be explicitely be construed as racist. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Namrata Bose" To: Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: new Indology list > Why are you complaining Bijoy? This is a white racist list. All know that. > Instead of > complaining, join http://www.egroups.com/group/IndianCivilization > this man Dominik is supporting India bashing and will find any excuse to > save his favorite white > people or others who support white people like Thompson and Deshpande. He > can tolerate Farmer, who cannot read anything serious in indology just > because he is > white. See how chicken hearted he is when he talks to christian fanatics > like Robert zydenbos or > to ISI pakistani agents like Samar Abbas.Only people who condone racism or > have no self respect > can remain here. Now I want D to cancel my membership of this list. I have > had enough of his nonsense. No > self respecting indian should stay in this list. Nobody who believes in > fairness and in the > equality of all races can stay in this list for one minute. Is Farmer a > trained Indologist? Is > he just lurking? Just the other month he posted 28 times on a minor matter. > Dominik, you think > that the idiot queen still rules India. Really speaking, she cannot even > control her own > dysfunctional family. Reading these sickening fascist emails from Salmon, > Thomson, Vassilkov I think that the missing link in human evolution has been > found. In some Indologists the reptilean part of the brain has not evolved > to the human level. Dominik and other people should get asian girlfriends > with the help of farmer. That is the only way they can escape the charge of > racism. I want more Farmers and Dominiks to support indology. This way it > will die faster :-) > > Namrata From samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 22:57:45 2000 From: samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM (Samira Sheikh) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 22:57:45 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062962.23782.14696765284771641402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The reason I raised Prof. Thapar's name is that in Frontline, >she said that she had proposed the rejection of the old Aryan >invasion theory, way back, in 1968. The only reference she >provides is a talk at ICHR, the proceedings of which are >quite inaccessible. Professor Thapar's remarks are available in the annually published Proceedings of the Indian History Congress (not ICHR, which is the Indian Council for Historical Research), which are to be found in most major South Asian Studies libraries. As she patiently points out (Frontline, Sept 30-Oct 13), the theory that the Indus Valley cities were destroyed by a single devastating Aryan invasion has been discarded long ago and any mention of it is like flogging a dead horse. Gradual cultural acculturation is considerably more plausible as a hypothesis. Why does it have to be a matter of nationalistic pride to deny any influence from outside present national borders? Surely the abundant energies of amateur Indologists could be turned towards more worthy causes than reiterating the same unproven assertions in the hope that they will miraculously become fact. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 23 23:10:00 2000 From: samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM (Samira Sheikh) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 23:10:00 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062964.23782.14124006274438325848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is surprising that in all the discussions about Harappa no mention is made of the work of the archaeologist Shereen Ratnagar, and the target is invariably Prof. Thapar, who does not even specialise in the period. Professor Ratnagar's work is possibly too scientific for those who only want to find leftist sounding rhetoric. See her Social Organisation of the Harappan System, Ravish Publications, Pune, (I am not sure this is the exact title) and End of the Great Harappan Tradition, Manohar, Delhi. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 24 03:53:28 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 00 23:53:28 -0400 Subject: Whines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062977.23782.7104585240151288460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A total of 39 Science/Technology Institutes... >... eight (the largest number from any single country) are from India. >Five of the top eight schools are from India. >Even Japan .... has only five schools .... So sorry, fuzzy math! If Japan had the population of India, it should have/would need 8 times as many top institutions, thus c. 40 .... But, not with just 120 million people: for whom would they produce all these engineers/technocrats? For export? India has five schools and should have, in comparison to Japan's population, c. 40 ! QED China (minus HK, Taiwan) with just 5 is roughly comparable. Simple absolute numbers don't do it. Otherwise, what about relatively small countries/units, Singapur and Hongkong, having one each?? Or, Thailand, etc. etc. etc. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 00:08:02 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 00:08:02 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227062968.23782.16794228709564049258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It is surprising that in all the discussions about Harappa no mention is >made of the work of the archaeologist Shereen Ratnagar, and the target is >invariably Prof. Thapar, who does not even specialise in the period. Because Thapar is such an icon that she is called the doyenne of Indian historians, in the latest colorful book on Indian history by John Keay (Atlantic Monthly Press, NY, 2000). She is such a big icon that Frontline asked her for an opinion, and not Shereen Ratnagar, whom the editor, N. Ram, clearly knows to be a leading authority on the subject. >Professor Ratnagar's work is possibly too scientific for those who only >want >to find leftist sounding rhetoric. See her Social Organisation of Ms. Sheikh, if you check http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9606&L=indology&P=R477, you will notice that on 3 June 1996, it was I who first brought the attention of this list to Shereen Ratnagar's Frontline article (Feb. 96), containing basically a review of some other books by Rajaram, and a detailed disussion of the so-called "Vasishtha's Head." I liked the fact that she presented her scientific arguments in a very straightforward manner. I subsequently sent a copy of the article to Prof. Madhav Deshpande in Michigan, at his request. In October 1996, he invited Ratnagar to present a talk at the Michigan-Lausanne seminar. If you search the archives of this list, you will get more information. Some amateur scientist-Indologists care for the science behind these things. We do not care too much for empty political rhetoric, whether rightist or leftist, or anti-rightist or anti-leftist, or whether indigenously grown in India or imported from foreign shores. Kind regards, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From sreeniparuchuri at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 24 12:58:26 2000 From: sreeniparuchuri at YAHOO.COM (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 05:58:26 -0700 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063006.23782.13581912075711072340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Inquisitive minds would like to know why there were no followups from "Professional"/"Mainstream" *Indologists* to those IMHO brilliant posts from Lakshmi Srinivas (Re: Neo-Orientalism, 4th October) and Rajesh Kochchar (Re: making of a cultural man, 21st October). If questioning the *professional* Indologists makes me another "amateur"/"Hindutwa-vadin", then Amen! Regards, Sreenivas P.S. Eigentlich h?tte ich so gern geh?rt, was die Herren SF, MW, RZ, YV, GT zu obigen 2 Nachrichten zu sagen haben. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 11:06:44 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 07:06:44 -0400 Subject: Knowledge Message-ID: <161227062997.23782.1983529369974577533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>This "certain knowledge/instinct" can be profoundly misleading too, of >>course. Having grown up in a culture is absolutely not the same as having >>an analytical knowledge of that culture. That's why some Hindu students >>fail courses in Hinduism (yes, it happens!). Dominik That is what I said in my first note that the British administrative model failed in 1900 and replaced by American management. Let me tell you what is original Indology according to me. WHile reading aitareyA brAhmaNA I was able to guess a relationship, which I found later in KB to my surprise.. "To him that is Soma he sacrifics as Vishnu; in that being bought he enters this (yajna) as it were, that is his form as vishnu. In that, further, he offers sacrifice to him that is soma as vishnu, here what in this name is vishnu is to be eaten in yonder name of soma." KB viii.2 I remember this is not in AB. Explaining this is within the scope of this list. This is what I call real Indology according to me. If you have a patent on the word Indology I will call it Hindology or pick a name. The British beurocratic model worked perfectly in 1700, which is what India copied. The Indian Civil Service (ICS) formed by British brought young lads from England and made them collectors of large districts. These young guys had no resources but they did wonders. The reason for their success is the administrative system and more importantly the spotless judicial system. I can see that your administration of the list is in the same spirit as ICS. You implement the same administrative system, set up rules and follow them with perfect justice; but remember the rules themselves were created in a way that stiffle any creativity. How can a "certain knowledge/instinct" be "profoundly misleading". This is a contradiction! How can knowledge be misleading? By saying knowledge can mislead, you are insulting knowledge, and also indirectly insulting people who possess or use that knowledge. You could have worded it differently as "imperfect or untrained half knowledge instinct can be prfoundly misleading". The fault lies in your assumption that scholarship is mere catalouging and exchanging information re: existing literature. American management has given us what is called "Yahoo search engine" which can do this work better than what this list is doing without all these hassles and arguments. (I am not supporting stupid and racist posts here, I only mean what I explained above.) To me real Indology is to creative Indology and stand up to it. If some people think it is a highflying imagination, so be it. Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rpeck at NECA.COM Tue Oct 24 11:08:29 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 07:08:29 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227062999.23782.16583789014936061160.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: nanda chandran To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:07 AM Subject: Re: Regarding indology .> >Why should it be so? Afterall we all converse in the same language, >right? If I claim something and I'm wrong, somebody just has to >show why - based on reason and factual evidence. Will merely applying >to some supposed authority on the subject because he differs in his >views, suffice? .> >Here we come to the crux of the problem. There are two positions >- intuitive and analytical. The one who would combine both is ideally >an Indian Indologist. One serious limitation I found was that Indians tend to identify their center of being within their chest whereas Westerners identify their center as being in their head. Similarly the Indian source of vitality lies within the guts rather than in the chest. Does not this basic difference lead to differences in interpreting literature? regards Bob Peck From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Tue Oct 24 06:30:22 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 07:30:22 +0100 Subject: e-mail address In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227062979.23782.5617335465067067468.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's: james.hegarty at theseed.net Valerie >I am looking for the e-mail address of James Hegarty. > >Thanks! Dr Valerie J Roebuck From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 24 11:35:15 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 07:35:15 -0400 Subject: Whines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063001.23782.5721525195678642339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael, I am sure you are not in the same league of India-bashing as Steve Farmer is. Can we give the country some credit that's due? To extrapolate that a faking Rajaram was a product of failing Indian science is just dangerous and is extremely subjective. Again I am repeatedly told that this forum is not for political opinions. So why are these statements made and as Dominic would say "needs airing"? Do they really to help the cause of "Indology"? I would continue to say that the discipline in Indian educational system is superior to many other systems. However I believe thay are not matters for discussion here. Can we refrain? Let us fight inobjective scholarship, but not a people! All of us should examine our hearts for any bias in reaching a conclusion. Regards, Bijoy Misra On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > >A total of 39 Science/Technology Institutes... > >... eight (the largest number from any single country) are from India. > >Five of the top eight schools are from India. > > >Even Japan .... has only five schools .... > > > So sorry, fuzzy math! > > If Japan had the population of India, it should have/would need 8 times as > many top institutions, thus c. 40 .... > > But, not with just 120 million people: for whom would they produce all > these engineers/technocrats? For export? > > India has five schools and should have, in comparison to Japan's > population, c. 40 > > China (minus HK, Taiwan) with just 5 is roughly comparable. > > Simple absolute numbers don't do it. Otherwise, what about relatively small > countries/units, > Singapur and Hongkong, having one each?? Or, Thailand, etc. etc. etc. > ======================================================== > Michael Witzel > Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) > home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > > Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > From AppuArchie at NETZERO.NET Tue Oct 24 06:44:04 2000 From: AppuArchie at NETZERO.NET (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 07:44:04 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <18430.972395846@www36.gmx.net> Message-ID: <161227063019.23782.13451822743648136479.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The current mudslingers might like to know an Indian view point on Science in India: [Anna's portrait of present day Tamilworld {as illustrated by Nandivarman]: "There is no other country that neglects science as this country. Here I am in front of a microphone and when I speak the loudspeaker amplifies my speech in all directions and makes it audible for many to hear. Just try and explain how the loudspeaker works! Find out how the Meddur Dam was constructed! Despite its heaviness explain how the ship floats! Tell them how the aeroplane flies! Or any scientific phenomenon! Tamils will not show surprise. Wonder in these will not become manifest. They may listen for a short time and soon forget these wonders. Confidence in and value of the power of wonder are absent in them. They have no respect for science. Because they have not toiled hard to invent scientific devices. If, my father invented the pencil; my brother invented the atom bomb, the radio by my grandfather, and electricity by my ancestors, then the full worth will be significant. The sleepless nights, ignoring oppositions; unmindful of people poking fun and their condemnations; fearless of the dangers; without any thought to such conditions as confusion, blindness, deformity, Westerners have given so much thought and worked hard to develop devices. That is why westerners praise science; it is worthy of their admiration; their respect for science is profound. But Tamils did not suffer to invent devices. Is there gain without pain? As a result names of inventors of devices such as the aeroplane do not jump out. Names of men behind the train do not stir any memory. Science in this country is an exercise in futility. Like snow in the desert, dangling a pearl necklace in front of the blind, music to the deaf, science commands no respect. A valuable commodity losing its value is not good. Students must work hard to give science its respectability. Students should go out to the people and remove the taint from their minds. Before lecturing on science, help the people to remove any unwanted dross and teach the power of reasoning. It is then people will understand things clearly and value knowledge, give up spiritual ignorance, trust in truth, and abandon fallacy."] Excerpts from my interpretation of a speech by Nandivarman on the Late 'aRignar' - Learned C. N. Annadurai- Founder and a former Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu at http://www.eelamnation.com> under KNOWLEDGE. -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Robert Zydenbos Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 2:57 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: "Science" in India Am 21 Oct schrieb Venkatraman Iyer: > <<< > The question should not be why are Farmer and Witzel pursuing this > matter, but why are Indian scientists so silent in their support? > Have they been intimidated? > > >>> > > Not just Indian Scientists. Even the Western Indologists. > I have seen none crusading other than Dr. Witzel, a lone exception If I may be so immodest: according to the bizarre Dr. Elst (who, in the by now well-known twisted style of Hindutva propagandists, in a pamphlet of his dubs me a "defender[s] of the AIT"): "Dr. Zydenbos can claim the merit of being one of the first (to my knowledge, the very first) among the defenders of the AIT to actually respond to the rising tide of anti-AIT argumentation" when I wrote my short rejoinder to N. Rajaram in the Indian Express in 1996. Although my piece was a triviality in comparison with what Witzel and Farmer have done, certain characters have never forgiven me for it, as the mailings of agents provocateurs to this list (all of us know their names by now) have abundantly testified. Why do so few Indologists participate in these 'debates'? Apart from the reason Dominik has mentioned (non-issues), another reason should be clear by now: our interlocutors are not reasonable people in search of academic truth. For the sake of the 'lurkers' on the list who have not yet understood: we so-called 'Eurocentric Indologists' are considered a threat to a certain ideological and political program in contemporary Indian politics which we all know, and hence we are spoken of like that other supposed grand conspiracy, the 'evil international Jewry' (which was also depicted as associated with 'leftists' and 'communists' and 'anti-national' elements) of another ugly period not so long ago. Hence, also, the concerted efforts to denigrate the scholarliness of mainstream scholarship. (I enjoyed that 'Europeanist theology' in Subrahmanya's recent message: it comes very close to 'international Jewry'.) Few people like to stomach the verbal violence which these interlocutors throw at us, and as long as the really ugly political madness goes on far away on the other side of the world, well, scholars return to their ivory tower and look the other way - which is obviously the main aim of these interlocutors. (In view of mailing quotas, I will write a few lines in response to S. Paruchuri's request later.) Prof. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik, Universit?t M?nchen -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 08:07:30 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 08:07:30 +0000 Subject: Regarding indology Message-ID: <161227062983.23782.9594487392046181377.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In a rather Buddhist manner, I think, I've tried to characterise >indologists by what they habitually do, not by what they are, or what >formal qualifications they have. But c'mon, Dominic, how logical is this strait-jacketing? After all the journals you mention, do not discuss the acronymns themselves, do they? Their value lies in the discussion of the Indological subjects. If somebody has genuine interest and has read the relevant subjects, though not from these journals, can't they contribute meaningfully to the discussions? Can't they bring some fresh insight into unresolved problems? Wouldn't Indologists be interested in understanding such views? >It is impossible to know the "strength of an argument" unless you have a >thorough grounding in the field. Why should it be so? Afterall we all converse in the same language, right? If I claim something and I'm wrong, somebody just has to show why - based on reason and factual evidence. Will merely applying to some supposed authority on the subject because he differs in his views, suffice? The difference between an "amateur" indologist and a scholar is that the latter has formal academic training on the subject. Though such training has its own advantages, it still doesn't ensure truth in every claim the scholar makes. If the amatuer too has studied the same material, how can you be so sure that he cannot come out with quality work on the subject? If the quality of his work is doubted, let it be done on the soundness of the argument itself. >This "certain knowledge/instinct" can be profoundly misleading too, of >course. Having grown up in a culture is absolutely not the same as having >an analytical knowledge of that culture. That's why some Hindu students >fail courses in Hinduism (yes, it happens!). Here we come to the crux of the problem. There are two positions - intuitive and analytical. The one who would combine both is ideally an Indian Indologist. He would have grown up in the culture and also been exposed to the analytic way of history writing. If free from political/ideological prejudices, he would indeed be the model Indologist. Regarding the two other players in the field - foreign Indologists and amatuer Indian Indologists, I've already explained the weakness of the former - they lack intuitive insight since they're not part of the culture. With the latter though they have intuitive insight into the subject due to growing up in it, your complaint is that they lack the analytic skills. Let me disagree with you here - most of the amateur Indian Indologists you see on this list are from a scientific/mathematical background : they are software engineers, astronomers, molecular or aerospace scientists - in whose fields analytical skills are of the utmost importance. Day in and day out, they use these skills in their work - that they're good at it can be confirmed in the way foreign countries are wooing them. I hope nobody is going to say that analysis differs when it comes to Indology! Logic is logic - analysis is analysis - whether software or history or philosophy - we systematically sift through the available evidence and try to come out with the best possible solution. Ofcourse, it could be pointed out that even such sifting of evidence requires some knowledge of the subject - sure, but then let that be decided on the strength of the argument itself. >I'm afraid your argument is based on a grossly oversimplified fantasy of >the foreign indologist. Almost all the people I know who study classical >India professionally (Indian and non-Indian) have complex, multi-racial, >multi-cultural backgrounds, have lived in many countries, including India, >and speak several languages. The ability of an indological scholar to >enter empathetically into an understanding of Indian culture depends on a >number of factors, including how self-reflective the scholar is, how good >a writer, how well-educated, how interested, and so on. This applies >regardless of birthplace, caste, or gender. You can't essentialize >scholars on the basis of geographical origins in any simple or even >worthwhile manner. Foreign Indologists might be doing this cross-culturization as a profession. But we Indians, who live(d) abroad, have done it practically. Over long periods of time, we've lived and worked in foreign lands - not due to any "professional interest", but for survival itself. We have mixed with foreigners socially and professionally, tasted their food, experienced their culture, shared their joys and fears. I'm myself a pretty self-reflecting type and one of my personal interests is psychology and culture. I watch and try to understand peoples and cultures. I would also say that I'm pretty well read with regards to Western literature - from Louis L'amour to Tolkien; from Camus to Nietchze to Kant. I'm also a keen listener of Blues and Jazz. But by this I'm no way deluded into thinking that I fully understand Western culture. There're some African Americans that I've met, whose grasp of blues and jazz, is quite different from mine. John Coltrane and Abbey Lincoln mean something to me, while it means something else to them. While I'm excited by certain things, they're excited by certain others. And there can be little doubt as to whose perception is closer to the composer's.The same is the case with Americans/Europeans with regard to their own culture. I thought I was quite knowledgable about Irish folklore, till an Irish collegue in London made me realize otherwise. His grasp of the subject - the motives, the details - were quite different from mine. His was an intuitive knowledge naturally acquired by living his culture, while mine was grasped from an inferior second hand medium - books. The same was the case with a stage actress who was my neighbour in Newyork city with regards Shakesphere. Though I can reel of the names of the albums of Miles Davis and his band members, I still realize that with regard to what's most vital in the whole thing - the spirit of the music - any African American will be more knowlegable than me - for it is his music, created by his own people and culture and hence is natural for him. For the analyzer it is only an objective analysis; but for the people who live it, it is a subjective experience. These produce two different kinds of knowledge and as stressed by numerous expositions of brahma vidhya - it is the experience which is the superior knowledge. I am reminded on the movie, "White guys can't jump", where Wesley Snipes mocks Woody Harleson for listening to Jimi Hendrix. He simply says, "you (because Harleson is white) cannot 'know' Hendrix, man!". _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Tue Oct 24 14:37:18 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (hans henrich hock) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 09:37:18 -0500 Subject: Whines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063017.23782.18277322035378824081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hear, hear! I'm giving this list one more week to get to avoid ad-hominem attacks--no matter at whom they are directed and from whom they come. If there is no change, I will ask to withdraw from the list. Hans Henrich Hock >Michael, >I am sure you are not in the same league of India-bashing >as Steve Farmer is. Can we give the country some credit >that's due? To extrapolate that a faking Rajaram was >a product of failing Indian science is just dangerous >and is extremely subjective. > >Again I am repeatedly told that this forum is not for >political opinions. So why are these statements made >and as Dominic would say "needs airing"? Do they really >to help the cause of "Indology"? > >I would continue to say that the discipline in Indian >educational system is superior to many other systems. >However I believe thay are not matters for discussion >here. Can we refrain? > >Let us fight inobjective scholarship, but not a people! >All of us should examine our hearts for any bias in >reaching a conclusion. > >Regards, > >Bijoy Misra > >On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > > > >A total of 39 Science/Technology Institutes... > > >... eight (the largest number from any single country) are from India. > > >Five of the top eight schools are from India. > > > > >Even Japan .... has only five schools .... > > > > > > So sorry, fuzzy math! > > > > If Japan had the population of India, it should have/would need 8 times as > > many top institutions, thus c. 40 .... > > > > But, not with just 120 million people: for whom would they produce all > > these engineers/technocrats? For export? > > > > India has five schools and should have, in comparison to Japan's > > population, c. 40 > > > > > China (minus HK, Taiwan) with just 5 is roughly comparable. > > > > Simple absolute numbers don't do it. Otherwise, what about relatively small > > countries/units, > > Singapur and Hongkong, having one each?? Or, Thailand, etc. etc. etc. > > ======================================================== > > Michael Witzel > > Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > > 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA > > > > ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) > > home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > > > > Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > > From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 17:15:35 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 10:15:35 -0700 Subject: Quality Intellect Message-ID: <161227063029.23782.12751727186138587420.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What the famous linguist says can be considered here. Keeping politics/polemics out and sticking to Indological matters surely will help. [BEGIN QUOTE] In my own professional work I have touched on a variety of different fields. I've done work in mathematical linguistics, for example, without any professional credentials in mathematics; in this subject I am completely self-taught, and not very well taught. But I've often been invited by universities to speak on mathematical linguistics at mathematics seminars and colloquia. No one has ever asked me whether I have the appropriate credentials to speakon these subjects; the mathematicians couldn't care less. What they want to know is what I have to say. No one has ever objected to my right to speak, asking whether I have a Doctor's degree in mathematics, or whether I have taken advanced courses in this subject. That would never have entered their minds. They want to know whether I am right or wrong, whether the subject is interesting or not, whether better approaches are possible - the discussion dealt with the subject, not with my right to discuss it. But on the other hand, the discussion or debate concerning social issues or American foreign policy, Vietnam or the Middle East, for example, the issue is constantly raised, often with considerable venom. I've repeatedly been challenged on grounds of credentials, or asked, what special training do you have that entitles you to speak of these matters. The assumption is that people like me, who are outsiders from a professional viewpoint, are not entitled to speak on such things. Compare mathematics and the political sciences - it's quite striking. In mathematics, in physics, people are concerned with what you say, not with your certification. But in order to speak about social reality, you must have the proper credentials, particularly if you depart from the accepted framework of thinking. Generally speaking, it seems fair to say that the richer the intellectual substance of a field, the less there is concern for credentials, and the greater is the concern for content. [END QUOTE] N. Chomsky, 6-7, Language and Responsibility, 1979. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 14:23:02 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 10:23:02 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063012.23782.16852115472076763062.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Bob Peck >One serious limitation I found was that Indians tend to identify their >center of being within their chest whereas Westerners identify their center >as being in their head. Similarly the Indian source of vitality lies within >the guts rather than in the chest. Does not this basic difference lead to >differences in interpreting literature? That was a perfect observation Bob! I still believe "dharma" is still living on one of its frail legs. My finding was that gut is where Vedic somA is located. If you check New York Times site for "gut, brain tissue, Sandara Blakeslee" you will find ================================================================== 1) Complex and Hidden Brain in Gut Makes Stomachaches and Butterflies By SANDRA BLAKESLEE EVER wonder why people get "butterflies" in the stomach before going on stage? Or why an impending job interview can cause an attack of intestinal cramps? And why antidepressants targeted for the brain cause nausea or abdominal upset in millions of p ... January 23, 1996, Tuesday Science Desk , 2393 words $2.50 ================================================================== The article says gut has brain tissue which generates ephedrines and a whole lot of chemicals that brai also generates. No wonder somA is an ephedrous plant. I am not sure if it is a mushroom, but it may be a plant that has stalks. This second brain acts as another source of thoughts, and this takes care of body's needs. Call it body's brain if you will. But this will be quickly overtaken by conscious thought processes of the brain which in other words is crammed with the "Vedic gods" such as Indra, bRhaspati who vie for this somA and try to monopolize it. Hope this helps for now. I am sorry I did not mean to attack Dominik. The subject of this list is for really "Comparative Linguistics" but using the word "Indology" and not doing justice for it is not fair. It raises hopes which will be killed rtuhlessly. By doing this, the most important aspects are being missed out...what yAjnavalkyA used to say "throwing out the embers and doing oblations on ashes". All over the world Neurologists have opened a "Neuro-linguistics" department, where as linguists are left far behind. In fact Neuro-Linguistics belongs to linguists, and Neurologists must be working on "Linguistic Neurology". Now linguists have no choice other than settling for Linguistic Neurology. My subject is Contemplative Vedic Neuro-linguistics. Hope you will all study it posthumously! Bye for now Bhadraiah Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Oct 24 14:26:56 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 10:26:56 -0400 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227063015.23782.5760161017998384739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RB>Indologists > >I believe that they are answerable to the people of india > > AK>I would be curious to know on what grounds the peoples of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are excluded. > RB> They are not excluded either. Curious to know why you exclude nepal, bhutan, afghanistan, china etc..... > anyway, I was pointing out that indologists are answerable to the people whose history and culture they study and this is an added responsibility distinct from the usual one of academic morality and search for truth. > regards RB From kaushikbhaumik at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 10:38:03 2000 From: kaushikbhaumik at HOTMAIL.COM (kaushik bhaumik) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 10:38:03 +0000 Subject: Regarding Indology Message-ID: <161227062993.23782.13430206797893137854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But c'mon, Dominic, how logical is this strait-jacketing? After all >the journals you mention, do not discuss the acronymns themselves, do >they? Their value lies in the discussion of the Indological subjects. >If somebody has genuine interest and has read the relevant subjects, >though not from these journals, can't they contribute meaningfully to >the discussions? Can't they bring some fresh insight into unresolved >problems? Wouldn't Indologists be interested in understanding such >views? Of course, they can.But I guess it has to be a discussion about the details of the subject under consideration and not the background of the writer - foreign or Indian or whatever. >Why should it be so? Afterall we all converse in the same language, >right? If I claim something and I'm wrong, somebody just has to >show why - based on reason and factual evidence. Will merely applying >to some supposed authority on the subject because he differs in his >views, suffice? But the sources we study were not written in the language in which we converse. Things are coded and it takes years to figure them out. In the case of Indian history it is even more difficult. Things are coded in the same language for centuries. There is no 'objectivity' to places or persons when they are written into a text. Convention prevails. For example, I was going through Charles Usborne's translation of Hir Ranjha and in the section where Waris Shah describes the beauty of Hir's companion he says they wore collyrium from Singhaldwip and Kandahar. Usborne, following the conventions of his times, translates Singhaldwip as Ceylon. But one has to figure out that Singhaldwip is actually Sangaldwip and means either Multan or, following Temple in his Legends of the Punjab, Sakala or Sakadwip or Sialkot. There is a slippage in pronunciation and interpretation changes. An even greater problem is that in India, almost everything is coded in terms of the epics, puranas and the hagiographic details of the saints. Claims are made by various traditions to the same symbols, same people. So the Pandavas are found to have founded all the cities, towns and villages of the subcontinent and the dasavatara is claimed by every group. But then the same city would have been founded by twenty different people depending whose point of view you take. See John Smith's interesting discussion on the presence of Lanka in the Pabuji myth. Lanka is probably a village Lankesario in Kutch or Sind. Ask a villager, he will tell you this. Ask a more distant observer and it has a different meaning. So we are not speaking the same language, are we? I guess as scientists you do believe a little in Einstein and the position of the observer vis-a-vis reality. >The difference between an "amateur" indologist and a scholar is that >the latter has formal academic training on the subject. Though such >training has its own advantages, it still doesn't ensure truth in >every claim the scholar makes. If the amatuer too has studied the same >material, how can you be so sure that he cannot come out with quality >work on the subject? If the quality of his work is doubted, let it be >done on the soundness of the argument itself. The 'soundness of the argument' in the case of Indian history is a vast subject. There are versions and there are versions. The Ganga is used as a metaphor to describe any important waterway. After a while the metaphoric meaning starts to solidify into 'objective' fact, i.e. if we only look at texts. Only when many versions of the stories have been collected then only can soundness start to be even glimpsed. that is what the Indologists are doing. We are dealing with belief systems and not a proof-based tradition of scholarship. >Here we come to the crux of the problem. There are two positions >- intuitive and analytical. The one who would combine both is ideally >an Indian Indologist. He would have grown up in the culture and also >been exposed to the analytic way of history writing. If free from >political/ideological prejudices, he would indeed be the model >Indologist. >Regarding the two other players in the field - foreign Indologists >and amatuer Indian Indologists, I've already explained the weakness of >the former - they lack intuitive insight since they're not part of >the culture. With the latter though they have intuitive insight into >the subject due to growing up in it, your complaint is that they >lack the analytic skills. Let me disagree with you here - most of >the amateur Indian Indologists you see on this list are from a >scientific/mathematical background : they are software engineers, >astronomers, molecular or aerospace scientists - in whose fields >analytical skills are of the utmost importance. Day in and day out, >they use these skills in their work - that they're good at it can >be confirmed in the way foreign countries are wooing them. Thats precisely the point. They are good at what they are doing. But that should make clear to them how the requirements of each discipline are bound by the rules of the discipline. You might be a good nuclear scientist working on isotopes and ionisation. But that does not mean that you can cure a disease that involves Calcium ion channel blockage of the heart. Nor can you even pretend to understand the dynamics of the disease. Intuitive understanding comes only after a lot of facts have been gathered. Intuition can guide analysis and - sticking to Ceylon - serendipity can aid us as magically as any djinn's wondrous lamp. But as such stories make it clear it can do so only once in a while. The rest is hard work. >I hope nobody is going to say that analysis differs when it comes to >Indology! Logic is logic - analysis is analysis - whether software or >history or philosophy - we systematically sift through the available >evidence and try to come out with the best possible solution. Ofcourse, >it could be pointed out that even such sifting of evidence requires >some knowledge of the subject - sure, but then let that be decided on >the strength of the argument itself. Again as I was saying earlier, the important thing about history is who says it and when and how. The strength of the argument comes much later. Social scientists are not involved in proving things. I hope neither are the scientists, otherwise we would have proven all there is to prove in the world and lived happily ever after. Logic is not logic and analysis is not analysis. One has to know the nature of one's object of study. That takes a lot of time as even scientists will be aware of. >I am reminded on the movie, "White guys can't jump", where >Wesley Snipes mocks Woody Harleson for listening to Jimi Hendrix. >He simply says, "you (because Harleson is white) cannot 'know' >Hendrix, man!". This a most strange argument to make. I listen to music and enjoy it. What is there to 'know' about it. Even if there is, then it depends on our conditioning. It depends on what I have heard from my childhood and above all on my moods. I am sure there are a lot of people who do not like the kind of music I like but it is their choice and I have made mine.I would be extremely annoyed if someone came and told me that he or she did not like the way I 'liked' my music, and specially music. That has more to do with my subjective experience. People can appropriate music (and that is what Snipes is doing vis-a-vis Harrelson)for whatever causes but that has nothing to do with 'knowing' music. Gohar Jaan, the famous singer of the early part of the century could sing in 20 languages. She was the most famous exponent of Indian classical music. And she was an Armenian Jew. Surely one would not argue she did not 'know'. And there are people who believe and pray to so many kinds of divinities. Will you say that the person praying to a Muslim saint has to know 'Islam' in order to do so. All of us, consciously or unconsciously, live on cultural borders and that is an experience that can have 'strong arguments'in its favour as well. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Oct 24 14:44:50 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 10:44:50 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063021.23782.7365781490349484623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> george thomson writes: > Nevertheless, I am glad to see the departure of Namrata Bose and others like him. Perhaps we can get back to discussion of matters of genuine scholarship, instead of all the off-topic nonsense of the past few days. > The thing about fools, BTW, is that you don't have to go out and point to them. They tend to point to themselves. > George Thompson > RB> good point.Going by the name, I think namrata bose is female. Would expect an INDOLOGIST TO BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY SUCH THINGS WHAT WITH ALL THAT TRAINING AND ALL!! > RB From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Tue Oct 24 14:48:23 2000 From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 10:48:23 -0400 Subject: English translation of Siddhanta Kaumudi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063023.23782.3374355531905350154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier, Peter Wyzlic, Dominik Wujastyk, and Indological colleagues: Peter Wyzlic is correct that the S.C. Vasu translation is the only "complete" one of the Siddhanta Kaumudi. One must treat it with some caution, however. While working on my little book on a history of the interpretations of Astadhyayi 6.1.77 iko ya.n aci, I discovered the following about S.C. Vasu's translation of the SK. 1. He had previously written a translation of the Astadhyayi, accompanying each rule with a translation of at least part of the gloss of the Kaa"sikaa. That appeared in Allahabad in 1891. 2. S.C. Vasu's translation of the SK, appearing first in 1906 in Allahabad, merely repeats the previous translation (ie, of the Kaa"sikaa), at least for the few rules I happened to pay close attention to. It's only his notes to the translation in which, also, just for the rules I investigated, he used the vrtti of the SK. For iko ya.n aci, this leads to a logical inconsistency, because the Kaa"sikaa interprets iko ya.n aci with yathaasa"nkhya (respective correlation), while Bha.t.toji Diik.sita uses aantaryam (nearness). S.C. Vasu did not attempt to reconcile the difference or even point it out. For details, see my Nearness and Respective Correlation, pp 130--131. Bob Hueckstedt Professor of Sanskrit and Hindi University of Virginia From samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 10:52:47 2000 From: samirasheikh at HOTMAIL.COM (Samira Sheikh) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 11:52:47 +0100 Subject: Leprosy in pre-modern India Message-ID: <161227062995.23782.1926379352677710132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very interested if any members have information on 1. The incidence or spread of leprosy/vitiligo/syphilis in pre-modern India. 2. Therapeutic methods for leprosy and other skin diseases - did these involve mercury, as with syphilis treatment in the Islamic world and Europe? Also, was the cure of leprosy associated with alchemical experiments, and thereby with Tantrics and other esoteric groups? 3. Leprosy contraction and cure myths, and any connection with solar worship. From marion.rastelli at OEAW.AC.AT Tue Oct 24 10:15:06 2000 From: marion.rastelli at OEAW.AC.AT (Marion Rastelli) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 12:15:06 +0200 Subject: New Publication Message-ID: <161227062989.23782.14963973932816140348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am pleased to announce the following publication: H?l?ne Brunner, Gerhard Oberhammer, Andr? Padoux (Eds.): Tantrikabhidhanakosa I. Dictionnaire des termes techniques de la litt?rature hindoue tantrique. A Dictionary of Technical Terms from Hindu Tantric Literature. W?rterbuch zur Terminologie hinduistischer Tantren. (?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften. Philosophisch-historische Klasse, Sitzungsberichte 681 = Beitr?ge zur Kultur- und Geistesgeschichte Asiens 35). Wien 2000. This book is the first volume of a dictionary of technical terms from Hindu tantric literature, which either are not found or whose technical meanings or uses are not mentioned in the usual Sanskrit dictionaries. It presents translations of the Sanskrit terms into French, English and German, explanations of their meaning and usage in one of the three languages mentioned above, and references from saiva and vaisnava texts. Apart from the editors the authors are C. Bouy, G. Colas, M. Czerniak-Drozdzowicz, G. Flood, T. Goudriaan, Sylvia Raghunathan-Stark, M. Rastelli, and R. Torella. This volume contains a detailed introduction in French and 557 entries on words beginning with the vowels (a to au) of the Sanskrit alphabet. Three or four further volumes are planned. To order a copy of this book, please contact: Austrian Academy of Sciences Press A-1011 Wien, Postfach 471, Postgasse 7/4 Fax +43-1-51581-400 e-mail: verlag at oeaw.ac.at From mlbd at VSNL.COM Tue Oct 24 06:47:03 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 12:17:03 +0530 Subject: Acceptance of Credit Card Message-ID: <161227062987.23782.352530712791866339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, You will be glad to know that from now onwards we can accept payments by Credit Cards through the Website/Email. The accepted cards would be Visa and Master cards. You will have to furnish us the credit card details such as card number, expiry date, name of the card etc... We hope this facility will be beneficial and will help you remitting the payment without problem and immediately. This will also help us strengthening our business relations further. With best wishes, Sincerely, Rajeev Jain -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Oct 24 16:52:59 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 12:52:59 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063025.23782.10452760554041623312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lieber Sreenivas, In my response to Vidyasankar Sundaresan I made it clear, I hope, that I have no problem with the presence of engineeers on this list. I do have a problem with others, however [I will let them point to themselves]. If that makes me a neo-Orientalist in your eyes, well, to paraphrase you, amen. I have found Lakshmi Srinivas's posts well-informed, balanced, and interesting. However, I do not feel that it is my place to respond to the post which you cite, because it is largely an exchange between her and Robert Zydenbos, who has just recently promised a reply to it. His response will be of more use than anything that I would have to say. I'd like to make one thing clear, though. I consider myself a student of old books and of times long, long gone. As far as I'm concerned, what I do as a Vedicist has nothing at all to do with contemporary India. So I feel no need to apologize for not being a sociologist or a political scientist, and for having no views whatsoever about contemporay India -- except insofar as I am attacked for having views about Vedic that some contemporary Indians find unpalatable. As for Rajesh Kochchar's posts, well, I admire the restraint and the discipline that he brings to them. And I hope to some day attain the same sort of restraint and discipline myself. As for the particular post that you cite, I'm afraid that I am not able to respond, since I have no views about what makes a cultural man, especially when it comes to engineers, about whom I know nothing except for what I encounter on this list. However, I do very much hope to have the opportunity to discuss Vedic matters with Kochchar and other Vedicists, once the dust settles, and once the list returns to its intended purpose. I hope that we can have serious discussions about his admiravle book on the Vedic people. mit herzlichen Gruessen, George Thompson [I will now take RKK's advice and withdraw to my books for a few days]. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 24 17:09:35 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 13:09:35 -0400 Subject: Fuzzy Vedic 'science' II Message-ID: <161227063027.23782.16995754570173182278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (on S. Kak's astronomical code, ctd.) Interestingly, Kak joins this theory with observations about the piling up of bricks of the Agnicayana altars. It certainly cannot be doubted that the altar is identified, in the typical fashion of the post-Rgvedic Brahmana texts, with Prajapati, the sponsor of the ritual and the year and that some calculations are connected with that. However, there was no Agnicayana yet at the time of the RV. Even the Mantra collection used for this ritual are late and form a third layer in the collection of the post-Rgvedic Yajurveda Samhita texts; the same it true for the discussion of the ritual in the Brahmana style texts. Any combination of the numbers of bricks in the Agnicayana with the order and number of hymns and Mantras of the RV therefore is not cogent, to begin with. To find astronomical reasons behind this arrangement requires extra-ordinary ingenuity on the part of the original, contemporary composers and arrangers of the RV -- or the decipherer, S. Kak. That they should constitute an original Rgvedic ``astronomical code'', -- based on the post-Rgvedic(!) arrangement of the RV-Samhita and the later, post-Rgvedic(!) construction of the Agnicayana fire-altars-- is simply impossible. It also does not help the scheme that the knowledge of this code is said to have disappeared very shortly after the composition of the texts. Further, Kak`s scheme suffers, even if one takes its rather involved numerical schemes for granted, from inconsistency, such as the arbitrary use of multiplication factors that deliver the desired results for the various courses of the planets (which are not even attested in Vedic texts, see M. Yano, forthc.). In fact, references to astronomical data in the RV are generally very vague, and limited to a few facts of direct observation by the naked eye (Pingree 1973, 1981, Witzel 1972, 1984, 1986, Plofker 1996, Yano forthc.). More details could be added. To mention just the most elaborate one, K. Plofker's (1996) discussion of Kak's attempt in the section ``Probabilistic Validation'' (1994: 106--107) [.....] This mathematical demonstration would not even have been necessary because of the derived, secondary nature of hymn numbers in Sakalya's redaction of the RV (see above). Or, in the same vein, when it is alleged by Kak that the combined number of hymns in the fourth, sixth, eighth, and ninth books of the RV was chosen to be 339 because that number is roughly equivalent to ``the "number of disks of the sun or the moon to measure the path across the sky... [or] sun-steps'' (Kak 1994: 100), one must immediately note, not only that RV 9 is a late book (Oldenberg 1888, Proferes 1999), but that these books have the following additional hymns (Oldenberg 1888): 4.57-58; 6.74-75; 8.96-101, 9.112-113, not to mention quite a few additional hymns *inside* these very books. This simple observation renders Kak's whole scheme numerically impossible. In short, the whole matter boils down to over-interpretation of some facts that are internally inconsistent. ------------------------------ Footnote: >Michael, >I am sure you are not in the same league of India-bashing.... >Let us fight inobjective scholarship, but not a people! If one re-reads my note calmly it will be apparent that it was written about fuzzy math, not about the Indian people ... ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 24 20:30:19 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 13:30:19 -0700 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063037.23782.4776053444936563342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< I may also add that in the Tamil popular conception throat viz 'nenju' also occupies the place of justice, equity, fairness, etc. There are common expressions like Nenjukku needhi i.e a cry for justice, or 'Nenju ketkavillai' which literally means Throat did not accept it which is understood to be 'I felt something unfair and monstrous' I wonder whether any Tamil scholars have something to add on this with examples from literature >>> In Tamil, neJcu means heart or chest about 98% of the time. Also, it means "mind". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 14:16:01 2000 From: samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM (sthanesvar timalsina) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 14:16:01 +0000 Subject: arguments and cultural conditioning Message-ID: <161227062985.23782.11753851465346787195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Artur, But you are still not curious on which ground the people of Nepal are excluded, Sthanesvar >From: Artur Karp >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: arguments and cultural conditioning >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:05:42 +0200 > >At 11:01 00-10-23 -0400, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > > >Indologists > > >I believe that they are answerable to the people of india > > > >regards RB> > > >I would be curious to know on what grounds the peoples of Pakistan, >Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are excluded. > >Regards, > >Artur Karp >University of Warsaw >Poland > > > > > >------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------- >http://www.schering.pl - najciekawsze informacje medyczne! >---------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 24 19:52:10 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 15:52:10 -0400 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227063032.23782.2599728649020089392.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being posted to your listserv or mailing list from the JOB ANNOUNCEMENTS section of SARAI. Please contact the department directly for any further information. David Magier (SARAI) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ========================== POSITION: Senior Scholar in Sanskrit The Department of Middle East and Asian Languages and Cultures at Columbia University seeks to appoint a senior professor in Sanskrit Language and Literature. Scholars pursuing all disciplinary approaches are invited to apply. Applicants should be internationally acknowledged leaders in the discipline and be able to demonstrate a distinguished career in research and teaching. They should be prepared to teach at all levels of undergraduate and graduate instruction and will be expected to take an active role in the department and its involvement with other programs. Applications will be reviewed starting January 1, 2001, with the intent of filling the position July 1, 2001 or soon thereafter. Send a letter of application and curriculum vitae to: Chair, Sanskrit Search Department of MEALAC 602 Kent Hall, MC 3928 Columbia University New York, NY 10027 Women and minorities are especially encouraged to apply. Columbia University is an equal opportunity / affirmative action employer. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Oct 24 13:57:26 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 15:57:26 +0200 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063008.23782.9553052657568677876.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 21 Oct schrieb Venkatraman Iyer: > <<< > The question should not be why are Farmer and Witzel pursuing this > matter, but why are Indian scientists so silent in their support? > Have they been intimidated? > > >>> > > Not just Indian Scientists. Even the Western Indologists. > I have seen none crusading other than Dr. Witzel, a lone exception If I may be so immodest: according to the bizarre Dr. Elst (who, in the by now well-known twisted style of Hindutva propagandists, in a pamphlet of his dubs me a "defender[s] of the AIT"): "Dr. Zydenbos can claim the merit of being one of the first (to my knowledge, the very first) among the defenders of the AIT to actually respond to the rising tide of anti-AIT argumentation" when I wrote my short rejoinder to N. Rajaram in the Indian Express in 1996. Although my piece was a triviality in comparison with what Witzel and Farmer have done, certain characters have never forgiven me for it, as the mailings of agents provocateurs to this list (all of us know their names by now) have abundantly testified. Why do so few Indologists participate in these 'debates'? Apart from the reason Dominik has mentioned (non-issues), another reason should be clear by now: our interlocutors are not reasonable people in search of academic truth. For the sake of the 'lurkers' on the list who have not yet understood: we so-called 'Eurocentric Indologists' are considered a threat to a certain ideological and political program in contemporary Indian politics which we all know, and hence we are spoken of like that other supposed grand conspiracy, the 'evil international Jewry' (which was also depicted as associated with 'leftists' and 'communists' and 'anti-national' elements) of another ugly period not so long ago. Hence, also, the concerted efforts to denigrate the scholarliness of mainstream scholarship. (I enjoyed that 'Europeanist theology' in Subrahmanya's recent message: it comes very close to 'international Jewry'.) Few people like to stomach the verbal violence which these interlocutors throw at us, and as long as the really ugly political madness goes on far away on the other side of the world, well, scholars return to their ivory tower and look the other way - which is obviously the main aim of these interlocutors. (In view of mailing quotas, I will write a few lines in response to S. Paruchuri's request later.) Prof. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik, Universit?t M?nchen -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Oct 24 14:01:01 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 16:01:01 +0200 Subject: new Indology list Message-ID: <161227063010.23782.3529975923051444741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 23 Oct schrieb Namrata Bose: > See how chicken hearted he is when he talks to christian fanatics > like Robert zydenbos For the amusement of our readers: our vociferous Ms Namrata has yelled at me in a similar vein before (I believe it was on RISA-L), and when I asked her to produce proof that I have ever been a Christian (let alone a fanatic), she was not forthcoming. Further comment seems unnecessary. RZ -- Prof. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik, Universit?t M?nchen -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 24 23:32:28 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 16:32:28 -0700 Subject: Regarding Indology Message-ID: <161227063047.23782.6882469097156018162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A complete (approx TEN YEAR) search through the Archives of INDOLOGY yields the following number of matches for JAOS ? 97 JRAS ? 55 BSOAS ? 20 IIJ - 46 Fundamental? If so, does INDOLOGIST provide them online? What is the relevance of such offline artifacts to a fundamentally online community (and world)? Recognized: as documents mimicked in pursuit of degrees? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Oct 24 20:57:51 2000 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 16:57:51 -0400 Subject: Quality Intellect Message-ID: <161227063039.23782.3522070190816721676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> '>'What the famous linguist says can be considered '>'here. Keeping politics/polemics out and sticking to '>'Indological matters surely will help. Thanks for the quote. There is a famous couplet in Tamil (tirukuRaL no. 423): epporuL yaaryaar vaayk kETpinum apporuL meypporuL kaaNpatu aRivu. To discern the truth of whatever is heard, spoken by whosoever, is wisdom (aRivu). (The point is the truth of the content is what matters and not who says it.) C.R.Selvakumar '>' '>'[BEGIN QUOTE] '>'In my own professional work I have touched on a '>'variety of different fields. I've done work '>'in mathematical linguistics, for example, without '>'any professional credentials in mathematics; in '>'this subject I am completely self-taught, and '>'not very well taught. But I've often been invited '>'by universities to speak on mathematical linguistics '>'at mathematics seminars and colloquia. No one has '>'ever asked me whether I have the appropriate '>'credentials to speakon these subjects; the '>'mathematicians couldn't care less. What they want '>'to know is what I have to say. No one has ever '>'objected to my right to speak, asking whether I '>'have a Doctor's degree in mathematics, or whether '>'I have taken advanced courses in this subject. That '>'would never have entered their minds. They want to '>'know whether I am right or wrong, whether the subject '>'is interesting or not, whether better approaches '>'are possible - the discussion dealt with the subject, '>'not with my right to discuss it. '>' But on the other hand, the discussion or debate '>'concerning social issues or American foreign policy, '>'Vietnam or the Middle East, for example, the issue '>'is constantly raised, often with considerable venom. '>'I've repeatedly been challenged on grounds of '>'credentials, or asked, what special training do you '>'have that entitles you to speak of these matters. '>'The assumption is that people like me, who are '>'outsiders from a professional viewpoint, are not '>'entitled to speak on such things. '>' Compare mathematics and the political sciences - '>'it's quite striking. In mathematics, in physics, '>'people are concerned with what you say, not with '>'your certification. But in order to speak about '>'social reality, you must have the proper credentials, '>'particularly if you depart from the accepted '>'framework of thinking. Generally speaking, it '>'seems fair to say that the richer the intellectual '>'substance of a field, the less there is concern '>'for credentials, and the greater is the concern '>'for content. '>'[END QUOTE] '>'N. Chomsky, 6-7, Language and Responsibility, 1979. '>' '>'_________________________________________________________________________ '>'Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. '>' '>'Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at '>'http://profiles.msn.com. '>' From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Oct 24 12:57:47 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 18:27:47 +0530 Subject: appeal Message-ID: <161227063004.23782.3192094478220165999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ******* The advantages that Internet offers in term of speedy and free transmission,and ease of accessing information are more than offset by lack of explicit or self refereeing,and by the desire to score points.Technology has drastically reduced the communication time. But the human response time remains very very long in comparison.That is why there is need for taking time to collect thoughts and conveying them. It is not without reason that language has such therapeutic expressions as "stunned into silence","taken aback","lost for words".If personal details are given or asked for,or if a situation arises where a person thinks that he must give personal explanation, it must be seen as collapse of interaction,the more so when the interaction is intellectual. There seems to be an urgent need for a "think-pause",an internet version of mauna-vrata. Some suggestions: *Take at least a day off from the List *Avoid using I or you. *Do not make personal attacks.If somebody does , do not respond:simply point out. *The purpose of any interaction ,more particularly of this List, is not to judge, harangue,convert or convince.But to point out. rajesh kochhar From fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Oct 25 00:25:17 2000 From: fushimi at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Makoto FUSHIMI) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 19:25:17 -0500 Subject: Fuzzy Vedic 'science' I (posting of Michael Witzel ) Message-ID: <161227063045.23782.6087764411288397884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is a posting by Michael Witzel , who is now not able to reach to the Indology mailing list. ============================================================================== While the 'discussion' about science in modern India rages on, it may be useful to take a look at what a modern US-based Indian scientist, with all his empathetic, emic, inside intuitive knowledge of Indian tradition has to say about astronomy in the Vedas. K. Plofker has alreday voiced her opinion on S.Kak's "Astronomical Code in the Veda", Delhi 1994 (now republished, I hear) in a 1996 review in 'Centaurus'. I have a small note, first written as part of a longer paper in 1997, but not yet published In India, for reasons unbeknownst to me, which I attach here: ---------- #28. The ``astronomical code of the RV`` One of the most arresting claims of the autochthonous theory is that of an astronomical code in the organization of hymns of the RV (Kak 1994), which he believes to establish a tradition of sophisticated observational astronomy going back to events of 3000 or 4000 BCE, a few millennia after the Aryans' hypothetical arrival in the seventh(!) millennium BCE (Kak 1994: 20-22), or more specifically, that certain combinations of numbers enumerating the syllables, verses and hymns in the Rgveda coincide with numbers indicating the periods of planetary motions. However, to begin with, Kak`s discovery is derived from the traditional ordering of the hymns and verses of the RV, a schematic one of the post-Rgvedic period most probably excecuted in the Kuru realm of the Eastern Panjab/Haryana at c. 1200 BCE (Witzel 1997); it was canonized a few hundred years later by an Easterner, Sakalya, during the late Brahmana period (roughly, 700-500 BCE). Other versions of the RV differ slightly; even a text contemporary with Sakalya, SB, says that the Pururavas hymn (RV 10.95) had 15 verses while our RV has 18. Which size and ordering of the text to follow, then? The real question, of course, is: why should anybody order one's texts according to some astronomical patterns? Rather, what kind of method would present itself to a people with a strong, well-trained memory but without the use of script? One could think, for example, of a strictly metrical pattern (as is indeed used in the Soma hymns of RV 9), or one according to the use of the hymns in ritual (as is used by the Yajurveda). None of the two is the one followed in the RV. Instead, as has been well known for more than a hundred years (Oldenberg 1888), and indeed since Vedic times(!), the RV is organized in three levels: according to authors, i.e. poets` clans (the `'family books`, RV 2-7, and 8), deities (hymns to Agni, Indra, then others), and according to meter (hymns with longer meters come first). The core 'books' of the RV (2-7) are arranged from short books to long ones, and, conversely, inside each book according to a descending order numbers of hymns per deity, and numbers of verses per hymn. All of this is not mentioned by Kak; for details on the exact scheme and the -- only apparent -- disturbances in it, see Oldenberg (1888). In sum, if one knows -- just as modern practice still prescribes-- the author, the deity and the meter, one knows where a hymn is to be found inside the core section (RV 2-7) of the RV collection. This is a simple but very effective method in an oral tradition without script. (to be continued) ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Oct 24 23:36:17 2000 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 19:36:17 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063050.23782.10696425437329907304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> '>'One serious limitation I found was that Indians tend to identify their '>'center of being within their chest whereas Westerners identify their center '>'as being in their head. Similarly the Indian source of vitality lies within '>'the guts rather than in the chest. Does not this basic difference lead to '>'differences in interpreting literature? I don't know, whether you're making a new discovery which will one day win a Nobel Prize for medicine, or simply you are wrong. Would you please tell me your basis for your extraordinary claim? Thanks C.R.Selvakumar P.S. It may be of interest for some to note that in Tamil, the word uLLam stands for, among other things, 'inside, mind, soul'. uL > uLLam uL > uLLu (think!) uL > uN > uNar (feel!) uL > uN > uNmai (truth, reality, realization) It is for humans there is meaning; mechanical logic and relationships are for robots and cybernetic machines. '>' '>'regards '>'Bob Peck '>' From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 23:58:12 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 19:58:12 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063055.23782.741867590093269804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "C.R. Selvakumar" Dear C.R.Selvakumar Bob asked the right question which opens up a gold mine, into which many neuro scientists, physiological psychologists and psychophysicsts are now delving into. What Nobel prizes? I think Nobel society will go belly up if people start digging this area! (belly up is American slang for bankrupt). I got upset in the morning with Dominik's remark about "knowledge/instinct" because that reminded me of my 8 years of work in a public sector gone waste after whatever I tried. (Freud effect of childhood experiences?) Now that I am back to normal, let us go. Let us be careful, this list is to exchange final research materials. So if we discuss any "raw data" or "speculations" let us label it properly otherwise people may take it for facts. In Telugu ullam means heart. The word is used as "ullAsamu" (joyfulness) or "ullamu jhallumane" (Heart gasped). _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From kaushikbhaumik at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 19:05:07 2000 From: kaushikbhaumik at HOTMAIL.COM (Kaushik Bhaumik) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 20:05:07 +0100 Subject: Vatsyayana Message-ID: <161227063031.23782.7747870066894351258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would be very interested in getting information about the genealogies of Vatsyayana - the one who redacted the Kamasutra. Does he have any connection with the Bhargavas? Is there any work on the transmission of sexual knowledge in the 17th and 18th centuries? Any work about Islamic and popular traditions of sex manuals? I will be extremely grateful for such information. regards Kaushik Bhaumik From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Tue Oct 24 20:27:38 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 21:27:38 +0100 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063034.23782.5879884254557389537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Peck" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge > -----Original Message----- > From: nanda chandran > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:07 AM > Subject: Re: Regarding indology > .> > >Why should it be so? Afterall we all converse in the same language, > >right? If I claim something and I'm wrong, somebody just has to > >show why - based on reason and factual evidence. Will merely applying > >to some supposed authority on the subject because he differs in his > >views, suffice? > .> > >Here we come to the crux of the problem. There are two positions > >- intuitive and analytical. The one who would combine both is ideally > >an Indian Indologist. > > One serious limitation I found was that Indians tend to identify their > center of being within their chest whereas Westerners identify their center > as being in their head. Similarly the Indian source of vitality lies within > the guts rather than in the chest. Does not this basic difference lead to > differences in interpreting literature? > > regards > Bob Peck I may also add that in the Tamil popular conception throat viz 'nenju' also occupies the place of justice, equity, fairness, etc. There are common expressions like Nenjukku needhi i.e a cry for justice, or 'Nenju ketkavillai' which literally means Throat did not accept it which is understood to be 'I felt something unfair and monstrous' I wonder whether any Tamil scholars have something to add on this with examples from literature From jneil at EZ2.NET Wed Oct 25 05:07:17 2000 From: jneil at EZ2.NET (Jean Nielson) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 22:07:17 -0700 Subject: Hindu roots of Vesak Festivals? Message-ID: <161227063061.23782.12238051723048119585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please unsubcribe me to this list. At the current time I am flooded with mail and do not have time to read it all. Thank you very much, jneil at ez2.net Dave Turpie wrote: > Hello list members, > Here's hoping someone in the know will indulge a query that balances > precariously on the edge of being inter-disciplinary. I am currently > researching early forms of the Theravadan Buddhist ritual known as Vesak > (derived from vaisakha, the second month in the Indian lunar calendar). > Given that in some circles, Gotama Buddha is considered to be the ninth > incarnation of Visnu, and the month of Vaiskha is generally associated with > Visnu celebrations, there would seem to be a link between this buddhist > festival which celebrates the birth, death, and enlightenment of the buddha > (all ocurring on the same full moon day in this month)and earlier (or > current)Visnu festivals of some sort. > At the moment this all pure speculation with no textual basis to support > such claims. Can anyone offer some guidance in the form of text or an > actual festival that might intimate at a connection between Vesak and a > Visnu festival either held in the past or currently being sponsored? > > Any help would be greatly appreciated, David T. From missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 22:07:35 2000 From: missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM (Narayan Sriranga Raja) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 22:07:35 +0000 Subject: Porcupines in India (was Re: Whines in India) Message-ID: <161227063069.23782.4999352513861941241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: >(Raja wrote): > > >A total of 39 Science/Technology Institutes... > >... eight (the largest number from any single country) are from India. > >Five of the top eight schools are from India. > > >Even Japan .... has only five schools .... > > >So sorry, fuzzy math! Hmmm...? What math? I merely pointed out that according to a neutral third party, Engineering education in India can actually be very good. That was all! >If Japan had the population of India, it should have/would need 8 times as >many top institutions, thus c. 40 .... Dear Michael, they just picked 39 of the top institutions in Asia. That was not a list of all Engineering schools in Asia, only the top ones. Read what you wrote. Do you truly believe that if Japan had the population of India, it should have 40 of the top 39 institutions? Isn't that taking Bonsai a bit too far? :-) >India has five schools and should have, in comparison to Japan's >population, c. 40 ! I really fail to understand what you're getting at here. I pointed out that "5 of the top 8 schools are from India". Do you really claim that 40 of the top 8 schools ought to be from India? :-) >QED True... but was it wise? Regards, Narayan Sriranga Raja. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From dturpi at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Wed Oct 25 05:41:03 2000 From: dturpi at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Dave Turpie) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 22:41:03 -0700 Subject: Hindu roots of Vesak Festivals? Message-ID: <161227063058.23782.3851856564945804106.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello list members, Here's hoping someone in the know will indulge a query that balances precariously on the edge of being inter-disciplinary. I am currently researching early forms of the Theravadan Buddhist ritual known as Vesak (derived from vaisakha, the second month in the Indian lunar calendar). Given that in some circles, Gotama Buddha is considered to be the ninth incarnation of Visnu, and the month of Vaiskha is generally associated with Visnu celebrations, there would seem to be a link between this buddhist festival which celebrates the birth, death, and enlightenment of the buddha (all ocurring on the same full moon day in this month)and earlier (or current)Visnu festivals of some sort. At the moment this all pure speculation with no textual basis to support such claims. Can anyone offer some guidance in the form of text or an actual festival that might intimate at a connection between Vesak and a Visnu festival either held in the past or currently being sponsored? Any help would be greatly appreciated, David T. From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Oct 24 22:05:28 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 00 23:05:28 +0100 Subject: Buddhism: embracing vegetarianism Message-ID: <161227063041.23782.17204123705267334336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >Maybe the lack of brahmins in Lanka? There have been some Simhal Buddhist brahmins. There still are some, although their number must be very small. >practical level - in India. A NyAya author from Bengal infacts rebukes >South Indian brahmins for being too Buddhistic in embracing vegetarianism. This is interesting. Buddhists survived in Bengal for a long period (in fact Bengali buddhism still exists). In Theravad tradition, neither the laity not the monks are required to be vegetarian. In Mahayana, the monks are generally required to be vegetarian, but not ordinary people. When did this NyAya author live? Devadatta, the cousin and rival of Buddha Shakyamuni, had proposed vegetarianism for the Buddhist monks, which was not accepted. >Ashoka is remembered in India for having passed an order in favor of >vegetarianism in his whole realm. But neither the lay Sinhalese nor the >Buddhist monks themselves are vegetarian. Ashoka forbade killing of animals on certain days, and killing of some animals (5th pillor edict). In the 1st rock edict, he expresses the intention of evntually not having any animals killed in his kitchen. Yashwant From tawady at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 24 23:07:57 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 00:07:57 +0100 Subject: Buddhism: embracing vegetarianism Message-ID: <161227063043.23782.6015016680515443409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:05:28 +0100, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: >nanda chandran wrote: > >>Maybe the lack of brahmins in Lanka? > >There have been some Simhal Buddhist brahmins. There still are some, >although their number must be very small. None what so ever, we have epigraphic evidence of people calling them selves as Brahmins settling among others during the initial IA settlement period, but ever since Buddhism prevailed Brahmins as a caste have ceased to exist as a separate (effective) entity among the Sinhalaese. Those very few who claim Brahmin and Sinhala ancestry today are recent immigrants from India mostly from Tamil Nadu/Kerala who have converted to Buddhism. There are Hindu Brahmins in Sri Lanka but they are ethinically Sri Lankan Tamil and it is a sizeable group. About the contribution of Sinhala (of all castes) authors to Theraveda Buddhism, I am sure that it is not miniscule as Nanada alludes, I would prefer that someone who knows more about it, should write about it, if it warrants a reply. Raveen From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 24 23:56:46 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 00:56:46 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063053.23782.6989736651422137007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought I would take Prof. Kochhar's advice and keep quiet for a while, but I've decided to do it after this one last missive. For all my interest in Vedanta and Yoga, I find it difficult to remain sAkshi-mAtra or dRzi-mAtra here. I have strongly held opinions, and I convey them in a strident tone, in order to drive them home. Perhaps I am too strident for the liking of some, but chalk it down to youthful enthusiasm. If I am bitter about anything, it is at the direction that this list has taken of late. I am gratified that people find me competent and scholarly, but really, my credentials are completely besides the point. I raised it only in connection with a larger issue. Everybody who sends a mail to the listserv asking for subscription, and who receives a reply approving his subscription, has a right to be on this list. No one, no matter how exalted, has the right to even begin to question it. If you think existing members should have a right to decide who the newer members are going to be, take it up with the list-owner. Dominik has created enormous room, through his "lurking" option, but in practice, it is problematic. When I joined this mailing list five years ago, I felt privileged to have obtained the opportunity to talk to a variety of scholars. I have learnt a lot from various people here. I don't feel that way any more, sadly enough. To cite just two examples, does anyone wonder why Prof. George Cardona doesn't actively participate here? Nor does Prof. Patrick Olivelle. For those who may have forgotten, both of them used to post messages here, till about three years ago. For all I know, they may have already withdrawn from this list, an option that Prof. Hock has now told us he will consider. Hock's post makes it clear that he would like to distance himself from all the posturing that is going on. That does not automatically make him a "fascist", nor does it indicate even that he is remotely sympathetic towards some individuals. It would be a pity if he left, and if things go on in the present vein, many more are going to leave too. Some other notable scholars already seem to have instituted a policy of the barest minimum participation. As a result, this list looks like the private fiefdom of a few individuals with a certain political agenda. A number of my countrymen on this list assume that being an Indian helps them understand ancient Indian texts better. Having grappled with some of these texts, I know that it doesn't. At the same time, I will emphatically assert that studying ancient Indian texts DOES NOT help you understand contemporary India better. There, an average Indian is situated in a much better position. Inspite of the fact that we are told to keep politics out of this list, I find that our distinguished Harvard professor invariably brings it up, ALL the time. It may be that a certain king named after nine jewels is a fascist. It may be that a certain crow of sweet speech mistranslates RV verses. But why do such people loom so large in the consciousness of some people here? If such people talk ill of Western Indologists, why don't you all treat it as water off a duck's back? And why do people who are not Indian citizens involve themselves with contemporary Indian politics? That is something for *Indians* to fight out. When all is said and done, Western Indologists have no place in the nitty-gritty of politics in India. I find all this brouhaha about Indian fascists just a tad pompous, especially when some people quote Emerson and Thoreau to us in this regard. Not everyone wants to jump on to certain bandwagons under the leadership of people who seem quite xenophobic themselves. Maybe they are not really so, but public perception counts. We have other ways of combating fascism in our native land. Let us go back to the Frontline article, shall we? There needed to be discussion of the entire issue in print somewhere, but the medium matters too. Nobody in academia really likes it when people run to the press, without talking about things in professional journals. Notwithstanding the growth of technology, this list and private websites do not completely replace professional journals. Ultimately, Rajaram's horse deserves nothing more than a footnote in a revised edition of Possehl's book on failed attempts at decipherment. But even that is not a big problem. When I find it being deplored that such publishing houses like "Voice of India" exist, I wonder why it is anybody's business how someone chooses to spend his money. He may have questionable political motives, but that need not be your problem. Let other Indians take care of that. If you were to just open your eyes and see, you will find that every political ideology in India is being countered by an opposite political ideology. Let the Indian people decide things for themselves. I find it immensely irritating to have to remind people that India is a democracy, with the rule of law. Everybody is free to do as they please, and to engage political opponents on their own turf. Why should it unduly bother others? When I see a non-existent horse being labeled after Piltdown, I wonder why there was not even a small inset giving rudimentary details about the original hoax of the Piltdown man. Contrary to what scholars may think, an average reader of Frontline would have known nothing about the non-existent British man. When I see a professor emeritus from the University of Manitoba described as not "mainstream", I wonder if Prof. Witzel's idea of the main stream is a very narrow stream after all. When I read a statement that it should be a concern for Indian education policy makers that some Indian engineers concoct some fantasies, I see a highly questionable generalization being made. When I then read a statement about the residential address of some of these Indian engineers, I see something more there. When one of the authors talks about the "abysmal state of what passes for science education" in India on this list, this impression gets confirmed. When the other author jumps into a population number game, to compare education in Japan and India, do forgive me for concluding that there is more than a little xenophobia involved. I am not alone in coming to such a conclusion, but I am sorry to see Prof. Witzel associating himself with such thinking. Let me talk about some more math here. I am sure the word normalization means something to all of you. The factors to be accounted for would be such things as literacy rate, GDP, per capita income, expenditure outlay for education, purchasing power parity, the relative value of the currency, and a host of other social and economic variables. I am going to be blunt here. A Harvard professor of Sanskrit who talks of fuzzy mathematics should not need a biochemical engineer from Caltech to point out things from the social sciences. In effect, what is happening is this. India is a major supplier of labor in the international scientific and technical marketplace. What these two experts have now told their government and the Indian government is that the Indian education system is "dumping" shoddy goods into the foreign market. These shoddy goods are now in the business of exporting questionable ideologies back to India, from foreign shores. And believe me, when a Harvard professor says such things, people take note, even if they may not immediately agree with it. With all due respect, I don't think Prof. Witzel and Dr. Farmer are really qualified to evaluate the technical competence of the products of Indian education. But in general, it doesn't matter what the Harvard professor's field of expertise really is, so long as he is an India expert. So, when things boil down to passports and visas and rupees and dollars, they get extremely sticky. If you don't like these debates on this forum, tell your distinguished professional colleagues to observe a little decorum themselves, and to think hard about how the average man will view their public statements, and the potential consequences ensuing from that. The niceties of academic distinctions are washed out in most public discourse. By taking the non-existent horse to the public media, and by further making other broadly interpretable statements, it is Prof. Witzel who has opened the door to a host of problematic political issues. In that case, do recognize that other kinds of political voices have legitimacy too. Or if you would rather not get into politics, don't hold a few Indian greenhorns on this list solely responsible for introducing it in the first place. Vidyasankar From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Oct 25 00:38:04 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 01:38:04 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063057.23782.15714729148375655490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: the review of Hicks & Anderson, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Vol 18, Numbers 3&4, Fall/Winter 1990 presented previously on Indology at http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9606&L=indology&P=R477 I am aware that it is a regarded poorly (euphemism :-)) in scholarly circles. But the record should be straight regarding the hollow metal head. As per the paper : 1. The head was found in Delhi in 1958 and was saved from being melted down. 2. The age was determined not only by carbon-dating a piece of slag from inside the head but also by recrystalization studies. Recrystalization is said to yield a minimum age of around 5200 years. Some paint on the head is said to have a minimum age of 4700 years estimated by the rate of red hemitite turning gray. 3. The material of the head is said to be copper-based with a high silver impurity. The composition is given nowhere. The authors speculate that the copper was extracted from copper sulphide ore with lead,zinc,silver impurities. It is not called brass anywhere in the paper. 4. The hairstyle of the head with the tuft on the right is used to identify the head as Vasistha. No photograph of the inscription is given. It is dated by the style of writing to be no later than 14 century AD. The inscription reads something like "Rana Sigha Narana Purana". 5. [ I cannot comment on the sloppiness of references -- I do not know enough.] 6. No published laboratory reports are cited. The carbon dating is said to have been carried out at the Lab. for Nuclear Science at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. Other tests are said to have been carried out at the Cyclotron at Univ. Calif. Davis and at the Van De Graaf linear accelerator at Stanford. -- My personal take is that anyone making extraordinary claims should provide sufficient documentation to allow examination of the claim. Without experimental access to the metal head, there is nothing further any researcher can do to examine the claim. -arun gupta From panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM Wed Oct 25 06:04:00 2000 From: panand3 at REDIFFMAIL.COM (P. Anand) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 06:04:00 +0000 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063063.23782.4698281374537508314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This arguably somewhat peripheral issue has been going on for a while. There are effectively two camps: Indians and non-Indians. Later group, in general, has a sympathy with Steve Farmer's views; former group does not. This whole thread started by a posting of S. Farmer, where on the basis of an Outlook magazine article and some anecdotal evidence, he claimed support for his beliefs about a section of Indians. To buttress his arguments, he described Outlook as a nationalist magazine. Here what the editor-in chief of the magazine has to say in a recent 5th anniversary issue: "Of course, there exists a body of opinion which insist Outlook should shift it offices to Karachi with a branch at 10, Janapath." This criticism may be unfair sometime, but if such a magazine is "nationalist" (in the sense used sometime here), then what about Time/Newsweek/Economist. I hesitate to use the word if I apply the same yardstick. It emerged that point to be made was that existence of people such as Rajaram can be attributed to pathetic quality of education of engineers in India. I want to make several points here. . Rajaram episode is far overblown. Most people, except a miniscule percentage, in India have not heard of Rajaram, let alone his theories/evidence. Frontline articles were perhaps the first major coverage. That too critical. This brings me to one of my points: Human nature to believe the worst about the others. People in general use different yardsticks for there own community/country and the "other" communities/countries. As human nature dictates, most non-Indians in this list would like to believe the worst about Indians. They would ignore the existence of many "Rajarams" in their own countries. They will speak of sweeping Hindu fundamentalism and even worse about India and Rajaram episode as an example of it. They would not look at their own countries. They would ignore the close relations between some major political parties and sometime extreme religious bodies in their own countries. They would ignore that their would-be-president feel the need to flaunt their religious beliefs. (Indians are human too.) . Most people in Indian scientific community will agree to the sad states of affairs in regarding science and humanities. (Outlook article was about these.) Education institutions (though smaller in number) are much better in engineering and at undergraduate level comparable to the best outside India. If there are too many engineers on this list, this is in part because of lack of enough good institutions in the field of humanities. I would like to say many more things, but this message is already too long. :- Pankaj _____________________________________________________ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com Participate in crazy auctions at http://auctions.rediff.com/auctions/ From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Oct 25 06:58:18 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 07:58:18 +0100 Subject: Hindu roots of Vesak Festivals? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20001024224103.0074c3cc@po-box.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <161227063065.23782.15788203696809447579.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The month of Vis'Akha is so called because its full moon (i.e. opposition to the sun) occurs in or near the nakSatra (lunar mansion) of Vis'AkhA. "Vis'AkhA", whose name means "branching in different directions", is ruled jointly by Indra and Agni--an appropriate constellation, perhaps, for the birth of the future Buddha, who had to make a choice between the life of a king (Indra) and that of a renouncer (Agni). This symbolism seems to be quite ancient: the list of gods named as rulers of lunar mansions seems characteristic of the Vedic and UpaniSadic periods rather than of later developments in Hinduism. Valerie J. Roebuck Manchester, UK David Turpie wrote: >Given that in some circles, Gotama Buddha is considered to be the ninth >incarnation of Visnu, and the month of Vaiskha is generally associated with >Visnu celebrations, there would seem to be a link between this buddhist >festival which celebrates the birth, death, and enlightenment of the buddha >(all ocurring on the same full moon day in this month)and earlier (or >current)Visnu festivals of some sort. From rpeck at NECA.COM Wed Oct 25 12:51:29 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 08:51:29 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063073.23782.8884619546644511382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: C.R. Selvakumar To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK . > Would you please tell me your basis for your extraordinary claim? My statements were based upon studies of students as well as literature. The modern West is oriented to thinking and the brain, whereas, the East and older documents write more of feeling (and intuition) centered in the guts. The modern West considers the brain/heart connection whereas many older and Eastern definitions describe the heart as ruling the brain and body and located within the abdomen. The modern West generally identifies the self with the brain and its activities, as compared with the identity with ?feelings? with the thinking brain only a remote tool from the self. This web site is a good example of the differences. Regards Bob Peck > From missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 25 08:57:57 2000 From: missing_link_found at HOTMAIL.COM (Narayan Sriranga Raja) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 08:57:57 +0000 Subject: Science (posted on behalf of a lurker) Message-ID: <161227063099.23782.15130758644741436908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A lurker requested me to forward the following comment: "Would you please point out that 5 out of 8 top engineering schools is 62% of the top 8 schools and considering GDP, the Indian Educational budget and other relevant factors - a superlative achievement." Raja. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Wed Oct 25 15:34:46 2000 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 11:34:46 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063079.23782.8972831892834237724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> '>'From: C.R. Selvakumar '>'To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK '>'=2E '>'> Would you please tell me your basis for your extraordinary claim? '>' '>'My statements were based upon studies of students as well as literature. = '>'The '>'modern West is oriented to thinking and the brain, whereas, the East and '>'older documents write more of feeling (and intuition) centered in the gut= '>'s. '>'The modern West considers the brain/heart connection whereas many older a= '>'nd '>'Eastern definitions describe the heart as ruling the brain and body and '>'located within the abdomen. The modern West generally identifies the self '>'with the brain and its activities, as compared with the identity with '>'=91feelings=92 with the thinking brain only a remote tool from the self. Would you be so kind (or brainy!) to provide some references to your study ? What does one understabd when s/he says 'it does not make sense' 'it is nonsense', 'be sensible' ? You carefully say '*modern* west indentifies (emphasis is mine)' and so maybe, just before modern times, the 'west' was not identifying the self with the brain ? Tamils (and I would presume other Indians) have always considered brain as the centre. The very word 'talai' (head) means 'where everything meets or joins or points'. Almost all spiritual/philosophical systems (in Tamil) are centered on 'brain'. (I would recommend reading tEvaaram and tirumantiram, just two of the many works which speak about head/brain as the centre. In Mylapore in the city of Chennai in Tamil Nadu, there is a temple called Kapaaleeswarar Temple and it may be worthwhile asking what is kapaali) I'll just quote one or two simple words to disprove your claim. (literally hundreds from diverse literature can be quoted) to show that 'thinking/brain as the centre'. The tirukkuRaL 412: cevikku uNavillaata pOztu ciRitu vayiRRukkum IyappaTum (Only when there is no food for thought, give a little food to stomach) The tirukkuRaL 392: eN enpa Enai ezuttenpa ivviraNTum kaN enpa vAzum uyirkku (To learn numbers (math) and letters (literature) is central to a living being; there is another interpretation of the same: To think and to awake from the slumber of igorance is central to the living being.) '>'This web site is a good example of the differences. First, the sample size is insufficient to make such claims and second, I don't see any analysis other than your claim. C.R.Selvakumar '>' '>'Regards '>'Bob Peck From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Oct 25 10:58:48 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 11:58:48 +0100 Subject: Hindu roots of Vesak Festivals? Message-ID: <161227063071.23782.10203380545334646668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The month of Vis'Akha Correction: I meant Vais'Akha (for the month). Valerie J. Roebuck Manchester, UK From jneil at EZ2.NET Wed Oct 25 19:01:33 2000 From: jneil at EZ2.NET (Jean Nielson) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 12:01:33 -0700 Subject: new Indology list Message-ID: <161227063103.23782.18317288013133892776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you very much! Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > In response to your request, I have removed your details from the INDOLOGY > distribution list. > > I wish you all the best with IndianCivilization. The facilities at > egroups are excellent, and I'm certain your group will meet with all the > success it deserves. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 25 16:43:43 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 12:43:43 -0400 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063085.23782.14929947287897680001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here are some speculations about speech. There is nothing religious, for linguistic purposes only. chAndogya upaniSat says: gAyatrIvA idam sarvam bhUtam yadidam kiGca vAgvai gAyatrI vAgvA idam sarvam bhUtam gAyatica trAyateca gAyatri is indeed is all these beings that are here, speech indeed is gAyatri, speech indeed protects all these that are here by singing and protecting. To this Adi Sankara comments (wording is mine): When some one is afraid, speech (probably of oneself or of an elderly person) says "This is only a cow, or horse, what is there to be afraid of?" and comforts the person. (People find comfort in speaking about their problem with other people.) V.C.Vijayaraghavan writes.. >I may also add that in the Tamil popular conception throat viz 'nenju' also >occupies the place of justice, equity, fairness, etc. >There are common expressions like Nenjukku needhi i.e a cry for justice, or >'Nenju ketkavillai' which literally means Throat did not accept it which is > understood to be 'I felt something unfair and monstrous' If we apply this tamilian phrase "crying for justice" to chAndogyA, we get a social interpretation of gAyatri. People protect themselves by crying foul or crying for justice. Doesn't this explain all these musings we had last one month? I see it is indeed gAyatrI at work. People are protecting themselves by shouting and crying out. Now extend this logic to individual living cells in the body (the Aurobindo way) you get the pathological definition of speech. When any of the living cells in the body get hurt, speech cries out. Conversely any sensation in somatic nervous system represents a "problem" that a person is experiencing at that time. These "problems" may not be the known problems one is really aware of, they may be mostly problems that were stacked up since childhood (Freudian) or since previous births(Hindu way) or other inexpressible problems (because Veda says at many places that speech has four parts and only one of the four parts is audible speech). I only explained one verse from chAndogyA. Other verses talk of gAyatri as heart etc. We can take up later if necessary. But relation of this symbol gAyatrI to speech is the most important one because speech is the "first" form gAyatri assumes if there is a problem. gAyatrI is also connected to or counted among the vasUs for some reason I don't remembr. AB says "vasUs are indeed that bind everything here". This also has many implications for psychology and linguistics. The speech is a vasu because the lower jaw tightly binds to the upper jaw. Heart is also a vasu because it tries to keep the integrity of the body by balancing blood flows to wherever necessary. You can find parallels of binding forces in nuclear physics if you like. Hope you enjoyed reading. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Oct 25 20:00:44 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 13:00:44 -0700 Subject: Inappropriate post Message-ID: <161227063118.23782.2092648796933690427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Alok Kumar, whom I don't know from Manu, as it were, in the last week: 1. Included data in a post about my personal life (20 October), taken from a passing remark of mine, defending myself from charges of racism, on a extreme nationalistic List that I participated in for a few days only. (I no longer receive email from that List, which I briefly joined to answer personal attacks following the recent Frontline article that I wrote with M. Witzel). I was quickly forced to leave that List after receiving repeated physical threats -- whatever the pretext, all clearly related to my writing that article. 2. Claimed on this List (21 October) that I had "desecrate[d] a whole generation of Indian scientists and engineers." Kumar's claim was based on my starting a thread questioning whether overly narrow technical training might have *something* to do with the strange distortions of Indian history seen in writers like Rajaram and Kak. My question is a valid one and still stands. (To V. Sundaresan, Bijoy Misra, and others here whom I respect: I certainly did *not* have all Indian engineers and scientists with historical interests in mind.) 3. Now (25 October) Kumar wants to start a special thread carrying my name to discuss my "academic training, the jobs that [I] have held in the past, and a list of relevant publications" in order to "help the members of both [sic!] lists as they view your posts frequently." The other List that Kumar is referring to is obviously the extreme nationalist List (indictraditions, in which I briefly joined to answer attacks on me by Vishal Agarwal and others) where I received the repeated physical threats. So far as my academic qualifications go, Mr. Kumar, I have already discussed them far more on the Web (including a post several days ago on this List) than anyone is normally expected to reveal. Not that my qualifications are any of your business, but they include a Ph.D. in cultural history from a top US university; nearly twenty years teaching in higher institutions in the US (with a post-doc seminar scheduled in Germany in 2001); past research fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities (two of them), Harvard University, and other major institutions or foundations; substantial peer-reviewed publications (including a 595-page book) in premodern history; and participation in many academic forums (the most recent an invited presentation at a Sinological conference less than two weeks ago, also attended by M. Witzel). I am a comparative historian and not an Indologist, but I claim that comparative history has a lot to contribute to Indology. Obviously some people in the field share that opinion. Beyond this data, I am certainly am *not* going to post a curriculum vitae here with detailed personal information for your benefit. Nor do I think that Dominik would approve any such thing. Steve Farmer From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Oct 25 07:47:20 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 13:17:20 +0530 Subject: Hindu roots of Vesak Festivals? Message-ID: <161227063067.23782.6916669744405060895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Siddhantic calendar (Saka,Vikrami,or the Hindu calendar) is a twin-track calendar. It keeps track of the sun's ingress into a zodiacal sign,as also of lunar phases.The luni-solar year begins (at least in theory ) with the new moon so that the vernal equinox falls in the first lunar month.,Caitra .I do not think the secod month Vaisakha has any particular Buddhist connotation. In fact, Buddha Jayanti itself falls in Jyestha as a lunar festival. The various aspects of all calendars are authoritatively discussed in M N Saha's Report of {Indian} Calendar Reform Committee,1956. For details of religious festivities/rituals see L D S Pillai(c.1912) An Indian Ephemeris AD 1800-AD 2000(Madras),Chaps 1 and 2. Rajesh Kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227/5765380 x231 fax 5754640 hm + 91 11 576 0281 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in { NOTE no www} -----Original Message----- From: Jean Nielson To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Hindu roots of Vesak Festivals? >Please unsubcribe me to this list. At the current time I am flooded with mail and >do not have time to read it all. > >Thank you very much, >jneil at ez2.net > >Dave Turpie wrote: > >> Hello list members, >> Here's hoping someone in the know will indulge a query that balances >> precariously on the edge of being inter-disciplinary. I am currently >> researching early forms of the Theravadan Buddhist ritual known as Vesak >> (derived from vaisakha, the second month in the Indian lunar calendar). >> Given that in some circles, Gotama Buddha is considered to be the ninth >> incarnation of Visnu, and the month of Vaiskha is generally associated with >> Visnu celebrations, there would seem to be a link between this buddhist >> festival which celebrates the birth, death, and enlightenment of the buddha >> (all ocurring on the same full moon day in this month)and earlier (or >> current)Visnu festivals of some sort. >> At the moment this all pure speculation with no textual basis to support >> such claims. Can anyone offer some guidance in the form of text or an >> actual festival that might intimate at a connection between Vesak and a >> Visnu festival either held in the past or currently being sponsored? >> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated, David T. From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Wed Oct 25 18:01:06 2000 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Kumar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 14:01:06 -0400 Subject: Steve Farmer Message-ID: <161227063093.23782.17036267164901485973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve Farmer: We had a few exchanges on the Indology list last week. I withdrew from the discussion in the hope that such action will improve the quality of discussion on the issues of indology and science education in India. However, it has not happened this way and the quality of discussion has continually deteriorated. My discussion with you was based on the quality of your argument and was not against you or any other person. After knowing your arguments, I decided to improve my understanding of your work by reading your articles and knowing your background. However, so far my on-line searches have failed. I have not been able to find your published work related to indology or science education in India. I have not been able to know much about your background either (quite relevant to Indology list). As some people have questioned your qualifications to deal with the issues of science education in India and/or indology, for all fairness to you, it would be best to set the record straight about your academic background and achievements. May I ask you to share information about your academic training, the jobs that you have held in the past, and a list of relevant publications? This will help the members of both lists as they view your postings frequently. Thank you, Alok Kumar From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 25 21:19:56 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 14:19:56 -0700 Subject: Inappropriate post/ the truth will set you free/coup de grace Message-ID: <161227063120.23782.5766763774281603157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, please refer to item #022548 in which Dr. Farmer wrote: "Rajaram finally revealed this morning (as I suggested on this List a while back) that his "horse seal" was "computer enhanced." Dr. Farmer, please reproduce this email/communication. A lot of this stuff which has been clogging up the list with 'off-topics' could have been avoided if you would have reproduced this communication awhile back. This is too much! Please, give Rajaram's bull what i hope and pray will be the coup de grace! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Oct 25 13:35:04 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 14:35:04 +0100 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge Message-ID: <161227063075.23782.4818523832959138935.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arnold Toynbee in his Study of History gives these as the predominant ways of experiencing the world according to differrent civilizations/religions Western Christian: feeling Hindu: Thinking Islamic: Sensation Buddhist: Intuition Regards Vijayaraghavan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Peck" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge -----Original Message----- From: C.R. Selvakumar To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK . > Would you please tell me your basis for your extraordinary claim? My statements were based upon studies of students as well as literature. The modern West is oriented to thinking and the brain, whereas, the East and older documents write more of feeling (and intuition) centered in the guts. The modern West considers the brain/heart connection whereas many older and Eastern definitions describe the heart as ruling the brain and body and located within the abdomen. The modern West generally identifies the self with the brain and its activities, as compared with the identity with 'feelings' with the thinking brain only a remote tool from the self. This web site is a good example of the differences. Regards Bob Peck From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 25 18:36:04 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 14:36:04 -0400 Subject: Asokan stupa in Orissa Message-ID: <161227063096.23782.14818344826156206677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Motilal (MLBD) newletter I received today (Oct 2000) refers to the discovery of an Asokan Stupa in Orissa (Langudi hill, near Dharmasala in Jaipur district), with inscription "written in early Brahmi characters", as well as terracotta seals yet undeciphered. Is there any further news on this discovery? Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 25 19:06:57 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 15:06:57 -0400 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227063107.23782.1233263935870368124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indology List: I am still puzzled about the origins of the term "Hindu". In G. Flood's book, he mentions that the term is first used as a Persian geographical term. Does anyone know the name of the Persian text which is referred to, and the exact date? Also, Flood mentions that the word "al-hind" in Arabic refers to the people of India. Does anyone know the first Arabic text which uses this term, and the exact date(s)? Are there any good articles on the origins of this term? As for the discussion that has been going on with the list, I am against excluding people in any way just on the grounds of formal "Indological" training. The experience of being a Hindu and/or Buddhist etc. is worth considering, whether one is a scholar of these religions or just an interested outsider. People who have grown up in these traditions may know things that we, as scholars (at least those scholars who are not Hindu etc.), may not. I do not see any problem with them attempting to communicate their knowledge to us. It might help us in our search to understand a concept or a ritual etc. It is true that some of the postings (on all sides) have been quite vociferous. Because of this, I feel that the goal of all postings should be to either to advance someone else's knowledge or present more or less factual queries, rather than the launching of personal attacks. Lynken Ghose Iowa State University _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Wed Oct 25 15:41:01 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 16:41:01 +0100 Subject: Dravidian/Semitic Invasion of India Message-ID: <161227063081.23782.8150716771963429371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In this year, on Oct.27, 2000, Hindus will celebrate their second New Year day when both Sun and Moon are in the sign Libra(Balance) according to Saayana calculations in Luni-solar calendar of the Ancient India.This is the fiscal New Year day of India when the business people balance their account books under the sign Libra.The first March New Yr day is celebrated with Sun and Moon in the first sign of Aries.The ancient Jews used to have two new year days-first in March and second on Rosh Hashanah(Aashwina Shuddha Pratipadaa or Kaartika Shuddha Pratipadaa-difference of one month due to different methods of adding extra month).The ancient Jewish rituals refer to citrus fruits from India. Jews eat bitter leaves on Rosh Hashanah and Hindus on March New Yr day.Then there are similarities in Arab Ashura, Jewish Yom Kippur and Hindu Dasaraa(Vijayaadashamii). All these facts might support the theory of Dravidian cum Semitic Invasion of India prior toAryan Invasion. To the best of my knowledge,Luni-solar calendar of the ancient India cannot be traced to Indo-Europeans because they (Iran andAfghanistan) have full Solar calendar with Vernal Equinox (21st March)as New year day. Even Europe used to celebrate March New Year day (up to 18th century)as can be seen from month names-Sept7,Oct8,Nov9,Dec10,Jan11 and Feb.12 leading to March as the first month.Happy fiscal New Year day to all including Uncle Sam(the budget got balanced)! From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 25 17:39:31 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 17:39:31 +0000 Subject: Date of the Veda Message-ID: <161227063091.23782.5232832261776265037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Writing about S. Farmer, S. Vidyasankar noted: >your methodology of making invalid general >inferences, does not imply that he is a fascist, or even that >he buys into other ill-formed theories about the date of the >Rgveda. After reading about Iron age in India from Possehl's article (reference given by G. Thompson, I think), Farmer wrote: "Chronologies re the first use of iron in Anatolia, in different areas of India (and regional variations are *critical*) are wholly independent of Egyptian and Assyrian chronologies. Same for Central Asia and China. Even the use of terms like "Iron Age" is, for good reasons, being widely challenged by people in the field. In India - and this has deep implications for dating of the RV and later Vedic literature - the dates have been pushed well into the first millennium. For recent overviews and extensive bibliography, see the studies in Vincent C. Pigott, _The Archaeometallurgy of the Asian Old World_ (University Museum, University of Pennsylvania, 1999)." Prof. Witzel usually dates the Rigveda to 1200 BCE based on the fact that iron in India is creeping upward chronologically, and the RV is pre-iron. But if the dates for iron are pushed "well into the first millennium", 1200 BCE date sounds too conservative. Is your take on the date of the RV very different from these? >?From another thread, S. Vidyasankar noted about an Indologist: >If you know of a Westerner >who so much as views some of these things sympathetically, he >is clearly "New Age" and not "mainstream", even if he is a >retired professor from a Canadian university, even if his works >have been published by an American university press with a South >Asia specialization, and even if he has published in standard >journals. Again: >When I see a professor emeritus >from the University of Manitoba described as not "mainstream", I >wonder if Prof. Witzel's idea of the main stream is a very narrow >stream after all. Does this refer to Klaus Klostermaier? If so, he concurs with N. Rajaram's "new" chronology. Not the mainstream Indologists view. In a Hindutva critique on the AIT, Klostermaier's chronolgy is given. http://www.atributetohinduism.com/aryan_invasion_theory.htm <<< Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory and Revising Ancient Indian History By Klaus Klostermaier http://www.icj.iskcon.net/6_1klostermaier.htm ... A more detailed 'New Chronology' of Ancient India, locating names of kings and tribes mentioned in the Vedas and Puranas, according to Rajarama9 looks somewhat like this: 4500 BCE: Mandhatri's victory over the Drohyus, alluded to in the Puranas. 4000 BCE Rigveda (excepting books 1 and 10) 3700 BCE Battle of Ten Kings (referred to in the Rigveda) Beginning of Puranic dynastic lists: Agastya, the messenger of Vedic religion in the Dravida country. Vasistha, his younger brother, author of Vedic works. Rama and Ramayana. 3600 BCE Yajur-, Sama-, Atharvaveda: Completion of Vedic Canon. 3100 BCE Age of Krishna and Vyasa. Mahabharata War. Early Mahabharata. 3000 BCE Shatapathabrahmana, Shulvasutras, Yajnavalkyasutra, Panini, author of the Ashtadhyayi, Yaska, author of the Nirukta. 2900 BCE Rise of the civilisations of Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Indus-Sarasvati doab. 2200 BCE beginning of large-scale drought: decline of Harappa. 2000 BCE End of Vedic age. 1900 BCE Saraswati completely dried out: end of Harappa. Texts like the Rigveda, the Shatapathabrahmana and others contain references to eclipses as well as to sidereal markers of the beginning of seasons, which allow us by backward calculation, to determine the time of their composition. Experts assure us that to falsify these dates would have been impossible before the computer age. Old verses new? Or scientists verses philologists? We are left, at present, with two widely differing versions of Ancient Indian History, with two radically divergent sets of chronology and with a great deal of polemic from both sides. Those who defend the Aryan invasion theory and the chronology associated with it accuse the proponents of the 'New Chronology' of indulging in Hindu chauvinism. The latter suspect the former of entertaining 'colonial-missionary' prejudices and denying originality to the indigenous Indians. The new element that has entered the debate is scientific investigations. While the older theory rested on exclusively philological arguments, the new theory includes astronomical, geological, mathematical and archaeological evidence. On the whole, the latter seems to rest on better foundations. Not only were the philological arguments from the very beginning based more on strong assertions and bold guesses, civilizations both ancient and contemporary comprise more than literature alone. In addition, purely philologically trained scholars-namely grammarians-are not able to make sense of technical language and of scientific information contained even in the texts they study. >>> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From tomoyuki.hori at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK Wed Oct 25 17:20:51 2000 From: tomoyuki.hori at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Tomoyuki Hori) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 18:20:51 +0100 Subject: SuuyagaDa and its equivalent Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227063088.23782.14676662742675691741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list subscribers, I read on p.38 of N.N.Bhattacharyya's "Jain Philosophy: Historical Outline" (2nd revised edition, New Delhi, 1999, Munshiram Manoharlal) that the Sanskrit title of the second anga of the Zvetaambara canon, SuutrakRta, is a wrongly Sanskritised form. He does not state why he thinks so. I am aware that Schubring in The Doctrine of the Jainas (English translation p.87; original German p.60) mentions attested forms such as SuutrakRdaGga and SuddagaDa. He also questions the possibility of rendering suuya as suutra since suutra in AMg only appears as sutta. He then shows the possible development of suuya < suui < suuci and suggests rather suspiciously, I think, that suucii/suuci might here mean dRSTi, probably basing it on Monier-Williams's small entry as a lexicographical definition: 'sight, seeing'. Personally I don't buy this suggestion since it is difficult to read into the word dRSTi a new meaning of wrong views or wrong opinions as usually meant by this Jain text. I do not know whether Bhattacharyya is alluding to this passage of Schubring or something else, but considering how widely the Sanskrit title SuutrakRta is accepted and used both by Indian tradition and modern Indologists, I do not know what to make of this. I am a complete novice in this field so I would appreciate any further reference or elucidations which I may well have missed. All the best, Tomo -------------------- Tomoyuki Hori Wolfson College, Oxford From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 25 18:42:26 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 19:42:26 +0100 Subject: new Indology list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063101.23782.18063398478992654739.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to your request, I have removed your details from the INDOLOGY distribution list. I wish you all the best with IndianCivilization. The facilities at egroups are excellent, and I'm certain your group will meet with all the success it deserves. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 25 19:06:11 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 20:06:11 +0100 Subject: Wines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063105.23782.1749322810184460417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, Narayan Sriranga Raja wrote: > [...] > We [mathematical scientists] don't need a Ph.D. and six years of > postdoctoral > experience to understand (some of) Einstein; in the > mere first year of our Bachelor's degree studies, > we can derive for ourselves, from first principles, > the fact that E = mc-squared. It takes a few minutes. > > But unfortunately, that's not how we discuss the facts > of Indian history. We are just told "This happened. > That happened. If you don't believe me, you need to > get a Ph.D., learn Old Ruritanian, and read the works > of Ephraim Geezer, written in Swahili, circa 1577." You put the situation very nicely, and wittily! I think you have usefully drawn out a major distinction between the mathematical sciences and the humanities. I think the distinction probably also applies to the non-mathematical sciences such as geology, astronomy, and perhaps even chemistry, etc. The examples you use exemplify well the delights and rewards of working in fields based on the exploration of formal systems. It is an exclusive focus on this type of methodology which leads to such statements as "there is Physics; all else is stamp-collecting". But there are many academic disciplines which do not work within the framework of a formal systems. > [...] this line of argument (proof by intimidation) can sound bogus. Proof by intimidation is, of course, not proof at all, and only an imaginary and unreasonabe disputant would ever suggest such a thing. The Fantasy Indologist, perhaps :-) In the humanities, professional success is usually the outcome of long periods of reading, learning, thinking, intellectual incubation, teaching, writing, and so forth. Perhaps that's why you have mathematical prodigies, but not usually historian or indologist prodigies. Now there's a nice idea, eh? An infant prodigy indologist, piping-voiced seven-year-old, discussing the difference between a horse and an onager, the horse-training terms in the Mitanni documents, the reasons why the artha-vakyas in the dhatupatha can't be by Panini, and the authorship problems of the Rtusamhara. :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 25 19:11:36 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 20:11:36 +0100 Subject: "Science" in India In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5B83@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227063110.23782.7927998349570413061.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > RB> Going by the name, I think namrata bose is female. I'm sure you're right. As in Namrata Shirodkar :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Oct 25 19:39:47 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 20:39:47 +0100 Subject: Regarding indology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063115.23782.17058383150624913311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > If somebody has genuine interest and has read the relevant subjects, > though not from these journals, can't they contribute meaningfully to > the discussions? Can't they bring some fresh insight into unresolved > problems? Wouldn't Indologists be interested in understanding such > views? Good lord, no! I'm afraid that card-carrying indologists all have the IIJ and the JAOS tucked under their arms. That's how they recognize each other in the street. And of course it's essential for JAOS-carriers to cross the road to avoid anyone carrying the AAS journal...brrr! -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 01:55:58 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 20:55:58 -0500 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063130.23782.10864166045379812922.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now that M.Witzel has turned the turret towards S.Kak, I thought it would be good for others on this list to also see Kak's posting. Just so that there is not a one sided barrage. Also, for those interested there is a fairly recent paper on "genetic evidence" at http://www.egroups.com/group/IndianCivilization under Files Regards Subrahmanya =============================== My attention was just drawn to the opinion of a certain gentleman on another list that early Indian astronomy was nonsense and a construct of misguided, nationalist, expatriate Indians. Now such remarks, which are without a reasoned basis, are normally best ignored (because there are a lot of cranks making all kinds of statements--- anything you can think of--on the Web and one can't respond to all of them). But this opinion helps us position several issues that will be useful to many people on these lists, which is why I have chosen to comment on it. First, consider the charge that the field is a construct of nationalist, expatriate Indians and, therefore, of suspect motivation. This is simply not true. Look at the nationalisty issue: Amongst the contributors are non-Indian luminaries such as Roger Billard (France), van der Waerden (Germany), Graham Millar (Canada). Amongst Indians, those who have contributed significantly are scholars such as T.S. Kuppannna Sastry, K.V. Sarma, K.S. Shukla, none of whom probably ever left India (assuming that doing so would somehow taint them as has been suggested). There are also many expatriate Indians who have contributed. This taint that the field is "Indian" reminds me of how during the Hitler era, Nazis in Germany went around writing in magazines that relativity theory was bad science and unworthy of being taught in German schools because it was "Jewish"! The second point is about how scholarly arguments are contructed and published. Scholarly journals send papers out for review to other scholars, so there is scrutiny before and, certainly, after publication. This doesn't mean that there is no difference of opinion, but a consensus emerges about what arguments are sound and supported by textual and other evidence. The narratives of early Indian astronomy have gone through the gauntlets of the reviewers of journals as diverse as Mankind Quarterly, Science, Royal Astronomical Society (UK), Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, Vistas in Astronomy, Current Science, Indian Journal of History of Science, Adyar Library Bulletin, ABORI, Puratattva and so on. They have also been reviewed by the reviewers and editors of anthologies and encyclopaedias. To check out the contributions of just one of the contributors (your's truly) to this scholarly enterprise, see www.ee.lsu.edu/kak/hist.html (if you don't have access to the Web, ask me in a private mail to send you the list by e-mail) I must also point to B.N. Narahari Achar's extremely important papers that have recently appeared in the Indian Journal of History of Science (published by the Indian National Science Academy). I am aware of just one small review (an opinion on a book) five or six years ago which found fault with one of the expositions published at that time. But editors of history of astronomy and Indic studies journals and other scholars did not find that particular opinion to be weighty and the program has gone forward. As you can see just from the list above, the publication rate in this field has picked up a great deal in recent years and major review essays have been commissioned. This is not to suggest that things are cast is stone. They never are in the scholarly world. But to challenge the body of scholarship, the challengers will have to write in peer-reviewed scholarly journals. For one not to do it and still claim that the field is wrong shows naivete at best. And when non-experts, who have no record of work in this field do so, that's a sure way to invite ridicule. It is perhaps this kind of thickheadness and unending repetition of old arguments that made eminent scholars like Edmund Leach and Shaffer and Lichtenstein to throw up their hands in despair and scream "racism" (see my www.sulekha.com article for the quotes). The other explanantion could be that the gentleman I referred to in the beginning of this post is not using common sense or is not aware of the scholarly method. But in the least, a professor's right to "profess" comes with its attendant reponsibility, and when that responsibility is not exercised it can only bring disrepute to the university and the department. So there are several lessons in this episode for us who are interested in the field as researchers or just observers of the goings-on. You can't settle an argument or declare victory by a sweeping claim. Ask for evidence. Ask for the adhikAra (qualification) from the person making the post. I hope this is helpful. If you have any specific questions regarding Vedic and early Indian astronomy and its relevance to the findings from archaeology and Indian chronology, do not hesitate to ask me. If I don't provide a detailed answer, I'll surely point the reference with the detailed answer to you. -Subhash Kak _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From hart at POLBOX.COM Wed Oct 25 19:11:20 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 21:11:20 +0200 Subject: Date of the Veda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063113.23782.9544011251100370497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 17:39 00-10-25 +0000, N. Ganesan wrote: >Does this refer to Klaus Klostermaier? If so, he concurs >with N. Rajaram's "new" chronology. Not the mainstream >Indologists view. In a Hindutva critique on the AIT, >Klostermaier's chronolgy is given. >http://www.atributetohinduism.com/aryan_invasion_theory.htm <<< >Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory and Revising Ancient Indian History >By Klaus Klostermaier >http://www.icj.iskcon.net/6_1klostermaier.htm> A slightly different version of the "new" chronology can be found in Klaus K. Klostermaier's "A Concise Encyclopedia of Hinduism" [Oneworld Publications, Oxford 1998]. The Author precedes it by the following statement: "The chronology of Ancient India up to the time of the Buddha is at present the focus of fierce scholarly debates. The majority of Indian scholars assume a date of 4000 BCE for the Rgveda, rejecting also the so-called 'Aryan Invasion Theory', whereas the majority of Western scholars maintain the invasion theory and date the Rgveda to 1500-1200 BCE. The chronology offered here represents largely the traditional Indian position. [...] On the basis of the more recent research based on archaeology and astronomy, the following chronology can be tentatively established: c. 4000 BCE Earliest Vedic hymns [...]" One notices how reality is created by the use of carefully selected phrases. The reader of course goes for the "traditional... position" - as confirmed by "the more recent research based on archaeology and astronomy"; no one would want to follow obsolete theories. No further comments. With regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland --------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] -------------------- http://www.femalelife.pl - najwiekszy serwis o antykoncepcji! http://www.schering.pl - najciekawsze informacje medyczne! ------------------------------------------------------------- From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Oct 25 15:59:56 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 21:29:56 +0530 Subject: Regarding indology and intuitive knowledge In-Reply-To: <006301c03df8$daf9ed90$bf5abcc3@tigertech> Message-ID: <161227063083.23782.4055054589450877665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:27 PM 10/24/00 +0100, Mr.V.C.Vijayaragavan wrote: >I may also add that in the Tamil popular conception throat viz 'nenju' also >occupies the place of justice, equity, fairness, etc. > >There are common expressions like Nenjukku needhi i.e a cry for justice, or >'Nenju ketkavillai' which literally means Throat did not accept it which is >understood to be 'I felt something unfair and monstrous' > >I wonder whether any Tamil scholars have something to add on this with >examples from literature nenju is not throat. It denotes the heart. It may also denote mind. Throat is called thoNdai. Both thoNdai and throat appear to be etymologically related. With regards, RM.Krishnan From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Oct 25 21:15:41 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 23:15:41 +0200 Subject: indology? Message-ID: <161227063122.23782.10815055003097666214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, After having joined this list about 24 hours ago, I have been busy deleting dozens of messages that seem to have nothing to do with indology, but more, perhaps, with psychiatry. Would it be possible to use this list in a more civilized manner? Regards, Bjarte Kaldhol, Olso From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Oct 26 03:49:18 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 00 23:49:18 -0400 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063132.23782.578111386827838177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/25/2000 8:56:50 PM Central Daylight Time, subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Now that M.Witzel has turned the turret towards > S.Kak, I thought it would be good for others on this > list to also see Kak's posting. Just so that there > is not a one sided barrage. For an interview which summarizes S. Kak's views, check out the following URL. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/nov/18inter.htm Regards S. Palaniappan From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Oct 25 23:02:58 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 00:02:58 +0100 Subject: Wines in India (was Re: "Science" in India) Message-ID: <161227063125.23782.6715409333226051777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >Now there's a nice idea, eh? An infant prodigy indologist, piping-voiced >seven-year-old, discussing the difference between a horse and an onager, >the horse-training terms in the Mitanni documents, the reasons why the >artha-vakyas in the dhatupatha can't be by Panini, and the authorship >problems of the Rtusamhara. :-) Sorry, it has been done already -- and if Indologia is correctly recited while the child is in the womb, he will not be born Ashtavakra. Unlike Ashtavakra, his father Kagola was not much of a scholar, and had to drown himself after losing in debate. Another worthy tradition worth reviving ? :-). With tongue firmly ensconced, I propose an alternate solution to the problem exercising a few of this list's members. "The religious books of the Hindus and their codes of tradition, the Puranas, contain sentences about the shape of the world which stand in direct opposition to scientific truth as known to their astronomers. By these books, people are guided in fulfilling the rites of their religion, and by means of them the great mass of the nation have been wheedled into a predilection for astronomical calculation and astrological predictions and warnings. The consequence is, that they show much affection to their astronomers, declaring that they are excellent men, that it is a good omen to meet them, and firmly believing that all of them come into Paradise and none into hell. For this the astronomers requite them by accepting their popular notions as truth, by conforming themselves to them, however far from truth most of them may be, and by presenting them with such spiritual stuff as they stand in need of. This is the reason why the two theories, the vulgar and the scientific, have become intermingled in the course of time, why the doctrines of the astronomers have been disturbed and confused......[and why originality has been lost]" (Al Biruni, Sachau translation). For people who are appalled by this theory : please take Al Biruni to be yet another comparative historian :-):-) -arun gupta From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Oct 26 04:32:57 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 00:32:57 -0400 Subject: Types of Indology Message-ID: <161227063148.23782.9692356304509917939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Types of Indology 1. Whether we like it or not, Indian culture and civilization (like Western culture and civilization) are too interesting, fascinating, and enticing for foreigners to keep away from. Countless people outside of the Western cultural matrix have studied, critiqued, appreciated, disparaged, have enriched and been enriched by Western culture. The same is true of Indic culture too. So, even if we ask them to please go away, outsiders, and certainly Westerners, will keep coming to discover, savor, understand, interpret, admire, appreciate, appraise, and sometimes also disparage Indian culture and civilization, as they have been doing over the ages. 2. Now, people who are legitimate (genealogical) heirs to the Hindu tradition, are very sensitive about how they are understood or misunderstood, interpreted or misinterpreted, portrayed or mis-portrayed. Because of several specific known instances in the past, we are inclined to suspect mischievous and sinister motives behind any non-pleasing comment that an alien commentator might make about our culture. 3. I had drawn attention earlier to etic and emic perspectives in the study of any culture, and we know that the so-called etic approach, for all its proclaimed objectivity, could also carry with it, consciously or unbeknownst to the author, some heavily biased undertones; at the very least it might lack the sensitivity and inner experience that can be part of only a participant and practitioner. 4. Given all this, it seems to me that in the coming century there will be two very different kinds of Indology which I describe below: (a) Endo-Indology: which will be practiced only by people who have deep respect, reverence, sensitivity and love for the Hindu tradition. Endo-Indologists would include: (a) Practicing Hindus, whether trained as scholars or not; (b) Hindu scholars who are highly trained as scholars, with a deep understanding of Sanskrit and/or other Indian languages, and perhaps also of English; (c) non-Hindus (by birth) who have adopted one or more aspects of Hindu life and culture in their every-day lives, who have settled down in India, and have deep empathy for Hinduism; (d) Hindus who have settled down beyond the shores of India, but who have acquired a significant body of knowledge and understanding of Hinduism through their readings (mostly via English books) and/or practices, and have also a deep commitment to furthering the cause of Hindu civilization beyond the shores of India. (b) Exo-Indology: which will be practiced by cold-blooded scholars who may or may not have an emotional attachment for India, but who are versed in Hindu lore and literature, in historical scholarship and Indian languages (especially Sanskrit). Exo-Indologists would include: (a) Indians/Hindus who regard Hinduism, the Vedas and the Gita, the Upanishads, the epics and Puranas in historical/literary/cultural rather than in religious/spiritual/divine-origin terms, who have no problems applying "Western" categories of chronology, literary criticism, psychoanalytical interpretations, two-way intercultural influences, etc. (b) Foreigners (non-Hindus) with the same mind-set, who may have great respect and admiration for some aspects of India/Hinduism, but may be quite critical of other aspects, who may have no significant emotional attachment for Hindu culture, and who may be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, or whatever; (c) Probably many non-Hindu students studying Hinduism in foreign colleges and universities, even though they may or must read the works of Endo-Indologists. I like to think that Endo-Indologists and Exo-Indologists will both read and be mutually enriched by, the fruits of their each other's efforts, and will respect one another even if they (unavoidably) draw different conclusions and provide different interpretations. Endo-Indologists need not be shy of, nor apologize for, their "soft corner" for the culture they are studying. Nor need they disparage or ascribe only mischievous motives to exo-Indologists. Likewise, as long as Exo-Indologists do not come with any evil intentions to malign or disparage Indic culture, they need not be constrained in their studies by fears of being rebuked or vilified by some Endo-Indologists. Indeed one may hope that by clearly identifying oneself as an Endo-Indologist or Exo-Indolologist one can better serve the larger cause of Indology, for the field can only be enriched by the commitment of both groups. Where there are marked differences in conclusions, one may explicitly state the category to which a specific conclusion belongs (Endo or Exo) and then agree to disagree. There will of course be no unqiue solution to certain problems. V. V. Raman October 26, 2000 From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 26 09:17:41 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 02:17:41 -0700 Subject: Hinduism Message-ID: <161227063142.23782.16003803709813700345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: Hinduism Re. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0010&L=indology&D=1&O=D&P=50173 Lynken Ghose wrote: <> The Oxford English Dictionary traces "Hindooism" to an 1829 reference in the Bengalee (45). It also refers to an 1853 usage by the German Indologist Max M?ller. Have a look at Richard King. "Orientalism and the Modern Myth of 'Hinduism'." In Numen 46, 2. Leiden, 1999. He writes: "The Arabic 'Al-Hind' is therefore a term denoting a particular geographical area. Although indigenous use of the term by Hindus themselves can be found as early as the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, its usage was a derivative of Persian Muslim influences and did not represent anything more than a distinction between 'indigenous' or 'native' and foreign (mleccha)." Sorry, I don't have access to the publication or any decent library at present. See also David N. Lorenzen, "Who Invented Hinduism?" (1999), 630-659. Could you please inform me if you get the names and/or dates of those Persian texts, or of any other pertinent data? I also would appreciate it very much if you could post the full relevant quote(s) and complete bibliographic data of <> mentioned above. Thanking you in advance. Ven. Tantra troyoga at yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From kkumar80 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 06:51:22 2000 From: kkumar80 at HOTMAIL.COM (Kumar Kumarappan) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 06:51:22 +0000 Subject: Rajaram Episode Message-ID: <161227063136.23782.3097324370960223795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am one of those recent ?lurkers? around here. I do so in the hope that I can learn a thing or two. Occasionally, like now, I feel the urge to throw in my two cents worth. I am amazed and bewildered to see how the ?Rajaram Episode? thread has taken different incarnations and evolved. The core issue is the falsification of available evidence by an Indian author on a sensitive topic. This is plain fraudulent. By any standards this is unacceptable and should be condemned with no uncertain terms, for what it is. Instead this has been turned around into a Indian Vs. Western contest, with a lot of dirt thrown to vilify the individuals who exposed the duplicity. The sheer numbers and the accusing tones of (the supposedly) ?pro-Indian? posters, attempts to intimidate other Indians who may want to post a disagreeing note. I just wanted to step up and be counted as one who condemns this ?horse seal enhancement? episode outright. Integrity and truth does matter and one need not be apologetic about it. Integrity and truth does transcend national boundaries for reasonable people. --kumAr _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Oct 26 11:10:47 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 07:10:47 -0400 Subject: job posting Message-ID: <161227063146.23782.5117019748972417077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the JOB POSTINGS section of SARAI. Please contact job posters directly for any further information. David Magier (SARAI) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ================================= POSITION: South Asian Religions - Tenure Track (Grinnell College) The Religious Studies Department at Grinnell College seeks to fill a tenure-track position in South Asian religions, at the Assistant Professor level, starting Fall 2001. Ph.D.s are preferred, A.B.Ds will be considered. The successful candidate for the position will be able to teach introductory and advanced courses in Hinduism, as well as introductory courses in Islam. We are especially interested in a scholar who works historically or ethnographically and who can address historical and contemporary intersections between Hindu and Muslim communities in South Asia, but we are open to scholars who may be interested in other kinds of intersections. The teaching load is 3-2. All tenure-track members of our department will be expected to contribute to our junior seminar on theory and methods in the study of religion. The members of the department share interest in theoretical issues of comparison, religious diversity, and the construction of religious identities and differences. In their letters of application, candidates should address their interest in undergraduate teaching in a liberal-arts environment in which close faculty-student interaction is emphasized. Send curriculum vitae and three letters of recommendation to: Tyler Roberts Department of Religious Studies Steiner Hall Grinnell College Grinnell, IA 50112-0806 (roberts at grinnell.edu) For further information about Grinnell College, see our website at http://www.grinnell.edu. Application deadline is Nov. 10. The department will be interviewing selected applicants at the AAR meetings. Grinnell College is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer committed to employing a highly qualified staff which reflects the diversity of the nation. No applicant shall be discriminated against on the basis of race, national or ethnic origin, age, gender, sexual orientation, marital status, religion, creed or disability. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Oct 26 07:01:08 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 08:01:08 +0100 Subject: November Madness (was Re: indology?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063138.23782.4298840168271578069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bjarte is quite right. Let's pull ourselves together and get back to the subject. Please close forthwith all meta-discussions about qualifications to post, engineering, contemporary politics, what it means to be an Indian, and so forth. I don't expect any opposition on this. I think we all know we have flogged this particular as'va to death. But just to be clear, a persistent refusal not to display tyaga and leave these controversies behind will result in being warned and then unsubscribed. And don't post "just one last shot"! This condition begins as of today, Thursday morning. If you have more to say on these topics, take it to egroups/IndianCivilization. I look forward to some really good questions and discussions concerning classical indology. On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: > Dear listmembers, > > After having joined this list about 24 hours ago, I have been busy deleting > dozens of messages that seem to have nothing to do with indology, but more, > perhaps, with psychiatry. Would it be possible to use this list in a more > civilized manner? > > Regards, > Bjarte Kaldhol, > Olso > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From maran_kathirchelvan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 08:44:30 2000 From: maran_kathirchelvan at HOTMAIL.COM (Maran Kathirchelvan) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 08:44:30 +0000 Subject: Rajaram responds to Witzel & Farmer article Message-ID: <161227063140.23782.15489221569214789353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajaram's response to the Frontline article by Witzel and Farmer (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/RAJARAM/Har1.pdf) is posted at the "BHARATIYA PRAGNA" OCTOBER 2000 VOLUME 2 NUMBER 10; the article is available at: http://www.pragna.org/Art21001.html He declares "But there is more, for what is at stake is the survival of Western Indology itself, with its roots in European colonialism and Christian missionary propaganda. It was Indologist W.W. Hunter who said: ?Scholarship is warmed with the holy flame of Christian zeal.? And Bishop Caldwell, who created the Aryan-Dravidian theory, admitted that his linguistic theories were of ?vast political and moral importance?? meaning they served British colonial and Christian missionary interests. Men like Witzel are successors to these colonial-missionary scholars, while Indians like Thapar and her tribe, are their camp followers." Rajaram does not deny the "computer enhancement" accusation nor does he address the other arguments in Witzel and Farmer such as dating the invention of wheeled transport, "technology" required to build a chariot as well as the problems with the claimed decryption itself. Witzel and Farmer did a good job of presenting the current academic methods in assigning dates to parts of ancient Indian history. Presumably, any alternate method must yield dates that are consistent with the dates of related civilizations, including the ancient Iranian. This knowledge will be important to informed readers and help them evaluate all claims that assign dates to any part of Indian history. And these controversies may even inspire some youngsters to take up Indology as a serious field of study that is really exciting (despite attempts by the Indology list founder to make it appear extremely dull ;-))! For that, we can thank Witzel and Farmer (and Rajaram ;-)). Maran K. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Thu Oct 26 14:04:30 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 09:04:30 -0500 Subject: November Madness (was Re: indology?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063154.23782.16441875640394224389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you, Dominik. Hans >Bjarte is quite right. > >Let's pull ourselves together and get back to the subject. > >Please close forthwith all meta-discussions about qualifications to post, >engineering, contemporary politics, what it means to be an Indian, and so >forth. > >I don't expect any opposition on this. I think we all know we have >flogged this particular as'va to death. But just to be clear, a >persistent refusal not to display tyaga and leave these controversies >behind will result in being warned and then unsubscribed. > >And don't post "just one last shot"! > >This condition begins as of today, Thursday morning. > >If you have more to say on these topics, take it to >egroups/IndianCivilization. > >I look forward to some really good questions and discussions concerning >classical indology. > > > >On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Bjarte Kaldhol wrote: > >> Dear listmembers, >> >> After having joined this list about 24 hours ago, I have been busy deleting >> dozens of messages that seem to have nothing to do with indology, but more, >> perhaps, with psychiatry. Would it be possible to use this list in a more >> civilized manner? >> >> Regards, >> Bjarte Kaldhol, >> Olso >> > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list. -- Hans Henrich Hock, Director Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 220 International Studies Building, MC-489 910 S. Fifth Street Champaign IL 61820 217-265-5016, 217-244-7331 fax 217-333-6270 e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu ***Visit our website at: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/ From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Oct 26 13:18:09 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 09:18:09 -0400 Subject: Exo and Endo Message-ID: <161227063152.23782.18132725433291058990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Y. Vassilkov: In a paper I read at the Vedanta Conference (1998) in Rishikesh on "21st Century Approach to Indic Studies" (published in my book "Reflections from Alien Shores") I had used precised the terms you suggest: Modern and Traditional. However, in recent months, as a result of the Aryan-Roots Debate, (as you well know) there have emerged many intense anti-Western-scholarship writings and postings in India and abroad in the context of Indology. Many of them not only (rightly) castigate the motivations of Max Mueller et al. (who are dead and gone) in their explorations of Indian civilization, but also feel that the colonial/racist/insensitive attitudes persist among a great many . Some have even suggested suggested that such Western scholars should keep away from Indology. Many Hindu scholars may not appreciate the description of to scholars who are engaged in , and , while reserving the term to those who are indifferent or insensitive to of Hindus, whether in India or abroad. That was the reason for my choice of the prefixes endo- and exo-. Let's see what others have to say on this. Best regards, V. V. Raman October 26, 2000 From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Thu Oct 26 04:47:44 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 10:17:44 +0530 Subject: Asokan stupa in Orissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063134.23782.3855133487315715226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Jonathan Silk wrote: > The Motilal (MLBD) newletter ... refers to the discovery of an Asokan > Stupa in Orissa (Langudi hill, near Dharmasala in Jaipur district) ... > Is there any further news on this discovery? Extracts of a relevant article which once upon a time existed at http://www.asianage.com/asianage/28052000/detutk04.htm are below (copyright rules forbid the posting of full news articles). The full article may be found at http://www.asianageonline.com - Asian Age May 27, 2000 `Stupa of Asokan era discovered' By Our Correspondent Jajpur, May 27 The Orissa Institute of Maritime and South East Asian Studies has recently discovered a famous stupa of the Asokan era on top of a hill near Jarka. The stupa on top of the Languri hill has an inscription written in Prakrit language. The hill finds mention in famous Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang?s account as Pushpagiri Mahavihar... However, the Languri hill stupa has an inscription which carries the name of the emperor in Prakrit as ?ami upasaka samchiamana agra eka thupe.? The Asokan inscriptions throughout the country were written using the Brahmi script except in the north-west parts where Kharosthi script was used. ... Before this stupa, Asokan stupas were discovered at Bodh Gaya in Bihar, Sanchi in Madhya Pradesh and Sravasti in Uttar Pradesh. Hope this helps, Samar From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Oct 25 23:37:58 2000 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 10:37:58 +1100 Subject: SuuyagaDa and its equivalent Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227063127.23782.3406547686396484354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi Tomo I cannot answer your question directly but I can contribute a comment and a reference. 1. On dRSTi meaning "wrong views" please have a look at the Pali Text Society dictionary under diTThi to see how this word is used in another heterodox school. I don't have my Prakrit dictionaries with me but they should be worth a look too, not to mention the all-important Sanskrit commentary on the SUyagaDa by ZIlA.Nka (printed in 1880, 1917, 1936-40, 1950-53 and translated into Hindi 1922-32). Certainly the opening section of the commentary, written in 861 CE, must explain the title in some way or other. 2. I suggest you contact Dr. Willem B. Boll?e in Bamberg, he has done major work on this text and would have (I am sure) a considerable amount to say about the title of this work. Dr. Boll?e's publication is detailed below (off-list I will send you his fax number since he does not use email nor subscribe to INDOLOGY). Willem B. Boll?e Studien zum Suyagada : die Jainas und die anderen Weltanschauungen vor der Zeitenwende : Textteile, Nijjutti, ?bersetzung und Anmerkungen. Wiesbaden : Franz Steiner, 1977-88. 2 v. (Schriftenreihe des S?dasiens-Instituts der Universit?t Heldelberg : Band 24, 31). Some of the many reviews of this work: J.W. de Jong in IIJ [dare I cite this shibboleth now?] 22 (1980) 75-77; K. R. Norman (Teil 1) in WZKS 25 (1981) 195-203 (Teil 2) in WZKS 36 (1992) 23-33; Colette Caillat in Numen 26 (1979) 106-110; Hermann Tieken WZKS 30 (1986) 5-25. Royce Wiles Asian History Centre Faculty of Asian Studies Australian National University Canberra From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 26 14:57:08 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 10:57:08 -0400 Subject: Types of Indology In-Reply-To: <000d01c03f49$f3971060$bbc6e584@let.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <161227063156.23782.2646091650537101593.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Dr Y. Vassilkov wrote: > To distinguish between modern scholars and traditional scholars is easy. > The difference is not in the measure of love to India or to its religion. A > traditional scholar believes that, e.g., the MahAbhArata was written (or > dictated to Ganesh) by MahArishi VyAsa in the beginning of the Kaliyuga, > i.e. more than 3000 years before common era. The dating of the MahAbhArata > by a modern scholar takes into account all the relevant facts which had been > proven and painstakingly collected by many generations of Indologists. Here we go again! You have to distinguish between religious fanatics and traditional scholars. That Mahabharata had anything to do with mythical Ganesha is religion. That its writer was Vyasa is admiration of scholarship. To identify who was vyasa or how many vyasas existed can be modern. Material may exist and we don't know yet. There is a tacit recognition in Indian literature that extreme creativity has to be attributed to "external" empowerment. Here we come to mind-brain complex. Since none of us has been as creative as the writers of classical texts, we cannot honestly fathom if Ganesha or Kali was involved. Scriptural writing is very different than scientific writing. The imagination in scriptures is fanciful and occasionally extra-human. That men/women were able to write such material makes you think of extra attributes. Do try to write a five page poem and post! Then empirically examine the efforts involved.. Best regards, Bijoy Misra > Best regards, > > Yaroslav Vassilkov > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "V.V. Raman" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 6:32 AM > Subject: Types of Indology > > > > 4. Given all this, it seems to me that in the coming century there will be > two > > very different kinds of Indology which I describe below: > > (a) Endo-Indology: which will be practiced only by people who have > deep > > respect, reverence, sensitivity and love for the Hindu tradition. > > Endo-Indologists would include: (a) Practicing Hindus, whether trained as > > scholars or not; (b) Hindu scholars who are highly trained as scholars, > with a > > deep understanding of Sanskrit and/or other Indian languages, and perhaps > also > > of English; (c) non-Hindus (by birth) who have adopted one or more aspects > of > > Hindu life and culture in their every-day lives, who have settled down in > > India, and have deep empathy for Hinduism; (d) Hindus who have settled > down > > beyond the shores of India, but who have acquired a significant body of > > knowledge and understanding of Hinduism through their readings (mostly via > > English books) and/or practices, and have also a deep commitment to > furthering > > the cause of Hindu civilization beyond the shores of India. > > (b) Exo-Indology: which will be practiced by cold-blooded scholars > who > > may or may not have an emotional attachment for India, but who are versed > in > > Hindu lore and literature, in historical scholarship and Indian languages > > (especially Sanskrit). Exo-Indologists would include: (a) Indians/Hindus > who > > regard Hinduism, the Vedas and the Gita, the Upanishads, the epics and > Puranas > > in historical/literary/cultural rather than in > > religious/spiritual/divine-origin terms, who have no problems applying > > "Western" categories of chronology, literary criticism, psychoanalytical > > interpretations, two-way intercultural influences, etc. (b) Foreigners > > (non-Hindus) with the same mind-set, who may have great respect and > admiration > > for some aspects of India/Hinduism, but may be quite critical of other > aspects, > > who may have no significant emotional attachment for Hindu culture, and > who may > > be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, or whatever; (c) Probably many > non-Hindu > > students studying Hinduism in foreign colleges and universities, even > though > > they may or must read the works of Endo-Indologists. > From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 15:42:42 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 11:42:42 -0400 Subject: Exo and Endo Message-ID: <161227063158.23782.11302336815700492887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members I admire Prof V.V.Raman for his imaginative introduction to concepts of EXO and ENDO Indologists. I also appreciate the practical reality as seen today given by Prof. Vassilkov. I understand this discussion is not related to what this particular list is meant for, which is entirely the discretion of Prof Dominik. Before I explain my position, I like to first give a bit of introduction to American Management which is the success story of the last century. Management asks three questions - What is our business, What will be our business (if we do nothing), and What should be our business. Prof Vassilkov's categorization of traditional & modern is what IS today. Unfortunately this has been problematic all through. Please let me give one example on "traditional" side: If some traditional scholar believes that Adi Sankara lived in 3000BC without any due respect to history I would say he should first consult a historian. Giving opinions in subjects one is not aware of is not a sign of professionalism. Such a scholar can not be called ENDO-INDOLOGIST at least in history, may be a great scholar in his own subject. (I wouldn't give an example of a similar mistake of a "modern" scholar. I would like to see it come from a modern scholar himself.) Prof. Raman's description of EXO and ENDO is quite comprehensive but needs further interpretation and discussion before it can be implemented. Any possible misunderstandings can lead to never-ending discussion. I suggest a simpler definition. EXO-Indologists are those who take written or spoken word as-is, record it and study it. ENDO-Indologists are those who think they are "capable" of interpreting scriptures in an unconventional way going away from all traditional methods, and even create a new scripture if necessary. Prof Max Muller has observed on an amusing note that there are Indologists who commented on their own works! What Prof Max Muller observed in fact was but the spirit of endo-Indology. Now one may fear that any one can become an endo-indologist at will and start interpreting the scriptures left and right creating more damage to Indian psyche, as well as polluting the "scientific" research work done in the last 150 years (thereby offending modern scholars) and so on. Absolutely not. It is may be a quite a bit of a task to bring Prof Witzel and Prof Kak to a coffee table for a nice heart-to-heart chat. But bringing any two endo-Indologists together is not big deal, even if they are dead against each other. At least in case of Veda (not sure about other non-Vedic cultures within Indology). For Veda the task is simplified because the endo-Indologists have a common code. Either of them must have the integrity to accept their mistakes or else they have to face the pronouncement "Your head will fall". In cultural systems other than Veda, the situation may not be as easy as Veda, but I am confident it is definitely not as difficult also (I wouldn't bring in comparisons from other non_Indological cultures here, it is for them to produce examples for themselves where they feel appropriate). In the absence of a proper understanding of these matters, the question "what our business will be" will only get worse as the endo-Indologists will continue to be misunderstood as traditional, and the modern scholars continue to keep their old game. The question what our business should be depends on the question whether a good understanding can be reached. Regards to all Bhadraiah Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Oct 26 10:40:16 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 12:40:16 +0200 Subject: Mahabharata in Epigraphy Message-ID: <161227063144.23782.7194506113566952684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, could anybody tell me, what is the earliest epigraphical reference to the MahAbhArata and its heroes (except SaMkarSaNa and VAsudeva)? I trusted the information given by C.B.Pandey in his article "MahAbhArata and epigraphy" (MahAbhArata: Myth and Reality: Differing Views, Delhi, 1979, p. 139: "We do not have any inscription of a very early date containing the MahAbhArata theme. The earliest inscription is of the Gupta period, i,e., 5th century A.D."), but it proved to be wrong. Some Epic heroes (Arjuna, Kezava, BhImasena, NahuSa, YayAti, AmbarIza) are mentioned in NAsik Cave inscription (No. 18) of VAsiSThIputra PuLumAvi (in PrAkrit, mid 2nd cent. A.D.; see: G.Buhler. Indian Inscriptions and the Antiquity of Indian Artifitial Poetry. Calcutta, 1970; D.C.Sircar. Select Inscriptions..., Vol. I, 3rd. ed., p. 205). Could you give me references to another early inscriptions mentioning the names of the MahAbhArata heroes? Many thanks in advance, Yaroslav Vassilkov From rpeck at NECA.COM Thu Oct 26 16:40:34 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 12:40:34 -0400 Subject: Bias in Indology? Message-ID: <161227063160.23782.13479388943832874319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> C.R.Selvakumar evidences a more fundamental problem in understanding other cultures or times in stating that Tamil writings only include the brain as the center of being. This countering statement to mine of separate centers may be based upon differences in experiencing the identity of the ?self? with the brain. In the States the separation of mind and brain was rejected by many who insisted that the mind and brain were one and the same. The discovery of memory and action centers in other organs has diminished this school of thought however, as well as the failure of the computer to replace many mental functions. Modern psychology likewise generally ignores the mind aspect of thought and has generally thrown out the concept of the earlier accepted term of conation that was similar to many Indian views of thought. As I read original religious documents, one common theme seems to be to teach the methods for finding the separation of mind and brain. In the States, many individuals are introduced to what is called ?yoga and meditation? wherein many classes introduce the idea of tat tvam asi. Supposedly the practices offered by the class will assist the student in ?feeling? the truth of the expression. It is interesting to observe that many original Christian writings seem also to point to the separation of mind and brain although the majority of modern Christian churches seem to stress only the brain. Perhaps my concern can be stated as two questions. How can a culture be understood with a bias based upon a different conditioned religious or experiential relationship of the self and world. How can Indology be truly objective without religious or spiritual (and scientific) considerations? Another concern of mine is the seemingly difference in the inner vital forces of early writings and modern interpretation. Regards Bob Peck From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 16:52:09 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 12:52:09 -0400 Subject: Types of Indology Message-ID: <161227063162.23782.14636205030610880671.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof Misra Let us define "religious fanatism". Religious fanatics are those who enforce their rules on unsuspecting public who did not agree to such rules in the first place before getting into contact with them. When there was a clear agreement on rules of discussion (such as "your head will fall" etc), then there is no religious fanatism. I must make a mention that there are also extremely polite and devotional message boards and groups where even normal technical criticism is out of place. It all depends on understanding the pre-set rules. In these boards, any aggression is understood as a proof that the argument is wrong! It is another brilliant way to decide what is right and what it is wrong, and they are right also, I have no complaints. So what I am saying is end-Indologists have their own ways of living together, whether Veda or other subjects. The question is about their interaction with exo-indologists. Also in future, for polotical correctness, instead of classifying the ancient time scales as "official" and "Hindutva" they canbe termed as "exo-indologic time scale" and "endo-indologic timescale".. tongue twisters? (I hit my 2 post limit today.) Regards Bhadraaih Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Thu Oct 26 17:28:31 2000 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 13:28:31 -0400 Subject: Bias in Indology? Message-ID: <161227063167.23782.7678893925032889737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> '>'C.R.Selvakumar evidences a more fundamental problem '>'in understanding other cultures or times '>'in stating that Tamil writings only include the brain as '>'the center of being. I'm sorry you are misinterpreting my words. When you claimed the following, I cited some examples from Tamil. The modern West is oriented to thinking and the brain, whereas, the East and older documents write more of feeling (and intuition) centered in the guts. Would you please quote my words where I claim 'Tamil writings only include the brain as the centre of being' ? Thanks C.R. Selvakumar '>'This countering statement to mine of separate centers may be based upon '>'differences in experiencing the identity of the =91self=92 with the brain= '>'. In '>'the States the separation of mind and brain was rejected by many who '>'insisted that the mind and brain were one and the same. The discovery of '>'memory and action centers in other organs has diminished this school of '>'thought however, as well as the failure of the computer to replace many '>'mental functions. Modern psychology likewise generally ignores the mind '>'aspect of thought and has generally thrown out the concept of the earlier '>'accepted term of conation that was similar to many Indian views of though= '>'t. '>'As I read original religious documents, one common theme seems to be to '>'teach the methods for finding the separation of mind and brain. In the '>'States, many individuals are introduced to what is called =93yoga and '>'meditation=94 wherein many classes introduce the idea of tat tvam asi. '>'Supposedly the practices offered by the class will assist the student in '>'=91feeling=92 the truth of the expression. '>'It is interesting to observe that many original Christian writings seem a= '>'lso '>'to point to the separation of mind and brain although the majority of mod= '>'ern '>'Christian churches seem to stress only the brain. '>'Perhaps my concern can be stated as two questions. How can a culture be '>'understood with a bias based upon a different conditioned religious or '>'experiential relationship of the self and world. How can Indology be trul= '>'y '>'objective without religious or spiritual (and scientific) considerations? '>'Another concern of mine is the seemingly difference in the inner vital '>'forces of early writings and modern interpretation. '>' '>'Regards '>'Bob Peck '>' From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Oct 26 12:40:37 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 14:40:37 +0200 Subject: Types of Indology Message-ID: <161227063150.23782.13108536052704935168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Raman, I am afraid that it will be difficult to apply your classification to reality. To what category should we refer such scholars as, e.g., R.G.Bhandarkar, Vishnu Sukthankar, S.K.Chatterjee, R.N.Dandekar, B.B.Lal, R.Thapar, Sh. Ratnagar, Kapila Vatsyayan, and many others, who, nothwithstanding are they practicing Hindus or not, apply to the facts of Indian culture the paradigms of world scholarship? They will prove to be "Exo-Indologists", "cold-blooded" and "having no deep reverence, etc.... for the Hindu tradition", according to your criteria. I would suggest two different categories. There are scholars in the moderm sence of the world, and traditional scholars. The latter may surpass some modern scholars in their knowledge of Sanskrit and the sacred texts, but, staying inside the tradition, they are often unable to view it in historical perspective. Modern scholars and traditional scholars complement each other and could well cooperate, if they do not focus their dialog on the basic differences of worldviews. To distinguish between modern scholars and traditional scholars is easy. The difference is not in the measure of love to India or to its religion. A traditional scholar believes that, e.g., the MahAbhArata was written (or dictated to Ganesh) by MahArishi VyAsa in the beginning of the Kaliyuga, i.e. more than 3000 years before common era. The dating of the MahAbhArata by a modern scholar takes into account all the relevant facts which had been proven and painstakingly collected by many generations of Indologists. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "V.V. Raman" To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 6:32 AM Subject: Types of Indology > 4. Given all this, it seems to me that in the coming century there will be two > very different kinds of Indology which I describe below: > (a) Endo-Indology: which will be practiced only by people who have deep > respect, reverence, sensitivity and love for the Hindu tradition. > Endo-Indologists would include: (a) Practicing Hindus, whether trained as > scholars or not; (b) Hindu scholars who are highly trained as scholars, with a > deep understanding of Sanskrit and/or other Indian languages, and perhaps also > of English; (c) non-Hindus (by birth) who have adopted one or more aspects of > Hindu life and culture in their every-day lives, who have settled down in > India, and have deep empathy for Hinduism; (d) Hindus who have settled down > beyond the shores of India, but who have acquired a significant body of > knowledge and understanding of Hinduism through their readings (mostly via > English books) and/or practices, and have also a deep commitment to furthering > the cause of Hindu civilization beyond the shores of India. > (b) Exo-Indology: which will be practiced by cold-blooded scholars who > may or may not have an emotional attachment for India, but who are versed in > Hindu lore and literature, in historical scholarship and Indian languages > (especially Sanskrit). Exo-Indologists would include: (a) Indians/Hindus who > regard Hinduism, the Vedas and the Gita, the Upanishads, the epics and Puranas > in historical/literary/cultural rather than in > religious/spiritual/divine-origin terms, who have no problems applying > "Western" categories of chronology, literary criticism, psychoanalytical > interpretations, two-way intercultural influences, etc. (b) Foreigners > (non-Hindus) with the same mind-set, who may have great respect and admiration > for some aspects of India/Hinduism, but may be quite critical of other aspects, > who may have no significant emotional attachment for Hindu culture, and who may > be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, or whatever; (c) Probably many non-Hindu > students studying Hinduism in foreign colleges and universities, even though > they may or must read the works of Endo-Indologists. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 17:06:18 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 17:06:18 +0000 Subject: SuuyagaDa and its equivalent Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227063164.23782.4907385785013247776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< On dRSTi meaning "wrong views" please have a look at the Pali Text Society dictionary under diTThi to see how this word is used in another heterodox school. I don't have my Prakrit dictionaries with me but they should be worth a look too, not to mention the all-important Sanskrit commentary on the SUyagaDa by ZIlA.Nka (printed in 1880, 1917, 1936-40, 1950-53 and translated into Hindi 1922-32). Certainly the opening section of the commentary, written in 861 CE, must explain the title in some way or other. >>> 'tiTTi' means the "evil eye" in Tamil (tiTTi < diTThi). 'tiTTi paTutal'=casting evil eye (on a child, etc.,). 'tiTTi-p-poTTu'=tilak to avoid "evil eye". In addition, 'tiTTi' means a snake who kills by spewing poison from its eyes. There is a beautiful poem in Kamban's epic where Kumpakarnan chides his brother for not leaving Sita immediately and, now a destructive war. Sita's chastity and words are compared to this 'tiTTi' poison. kiTTiyatO, ceru? kiLar pon2 cItaiyaic cuTTiyatO? mun2am, con2n2a coRkaLAl, tiTTiyin2 viTam an2n2a kaRpin2 celviyai viTTilaiyO? itu vitiyin2 vaNNamE! - Kavichakravarti Kambar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 26 17:06:54 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 17:06:54 +0000 Subject: Types of Indology Message-ID: <161227063166.23782.4462137862711342124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indology pursued in the academe involves an *historical* approach where the appropriate attention is given to primary sources, archaeology, epigraphy, influences, the linguistic dimension and so on. This can be and had been done by Indians or foreign born. "Religious/spiritual/divine-origin"/natinalist etc., approach is often *ahistorical*. Taking vedas as apaurusheya, those opinions have problems with known historical data. For example, situating the Rigveda in 5000 or 4000 years before Christ is not the mainstream of Indology. Two types: historical and ahistorical. Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Oct 26 23:24:58 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 19:24:58 -0400 Subject: Bias in Indology? In-Reply-To: <000401c03f6b$7c9d2d60$120053be@lianda> Message-ID: <161227063170.23782.7008699685042685422.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of the analytic critical comments I have seen in this forum. Good food for discusion and insight. congratulations.. BM On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Bob Peck wrote: > C.R.Selvakumar evidences a more fundamental problem in understanding other > cultures or times in stating that Tamil writings only include the brain as > the center of being. > This countering statement to mine of separate centers may be based upon > differences in experiencing the identity of the ?self? with the brain. In > the States the separation of mind and brain was rejected by many who > insisted that the mind and brain were one and the same. The discovery of > memory and action centers in other organs has diminished this school of > thought however, as well as the failure of the computer to replace many > mental functions. Modern psychology likewise generally ignores the mind > aspect of thought and has generally thrown out the concept of the earlier > accepted term of conation that was similar to many Indian views of thought. > As I read original religious documents, one common theme seems to be to > teach the methods for finding the separation of mind and brain. In the > States, many individuals are introduced to what is called ?yoga and > meditation? wherein many classes introduce the idea of tat tvam asi. > Supposedly the practices offered by the class will assist the student in > ?feeling? the truth of the expression. > It is interesting to observe that many original Christian writings seem also > to point to the separation of mind and brain although the majority of modern > Christian churches seem to stress only the brain. > Perhaps my concern can be stated as two questions. How can a culture be > understood with a bias based upon a different conditioned religious or > experiential relationship of the self and world. How can Indology be truly > objective without religious or spiritual (and scientific) considerations? > Another concern of mine is the seemingly difference in the inner vital > forces of early writings and modern interpretation. > > Regards > Bob Peck > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Oct 27 02:24:36 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 00 22:24:36 -0400 Subject: Klostermaier's Vedic civilization Message-ID: <161227063172.23782.14365966126025628035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > When I see a professor emeritus >from the University of Manitoba described as not "mainstream", I >wonder if Prof. Witzel's idea of the main stream is a very narrow >stream after all. The mainstream is always in the eye of the swimmer... K.Klostermaier (now Cambridge, UK?) was deliberatedly described as such. Consider the following quotes from his long, laudatory introduction to: NS. Rajaram & D. Frawley [sorry: 'Vamadeva Sastri'], Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization. 2nd ed., New Delhi 1997: ""It will not be possible to brush aside this book as the wishful thinking of Hindu-Chauvinists... Massive evidence available today (from archaeology, geology, satellite photography, and a more adequate understanding of ancient literary documents) disproves most of the assumptions ... on which ... the chronology of early Indian literature was based... It is a most welcome development to see scientists [i.e. Rajaram?] with a wide variety of backgrounds entering a field that so far has been worked over only by philologists [factually wrong!] ... ... a need to rewrite the early history of civilization... [and best of all: ] The facts referred to in this book are incontrovertible. The conclusions drawn have a high degree of plausibility. Consequently, the implications are nothing less than sensational..... Rajaram and Frawley are true pioneers blazing new trails. "" Question: trails whereto? "Holzwege", more likely. If one chooses such words (more than page long) to back up a book that finds the origin of human civilization in "Vedic India" at 8000 BCE, -- the Vrtra myth describing the end of the Ice age at 8000 BC(!) and with 3100 BCE as the end of the Vedic age -- where do you stand, float or swim ?? Read Rajaram & Frawley p. 247: "on the basis of archaeology, satellite photography, metallurgy and ancient mathematics it is now clear that there existed a great civiliziation -- a mainly spiritual civilization perhaps -- before the rise of Egypt, Sumeria and the Indus Valley, the heartland of this ancient world was the region from the Indus to the Ganga -- the land of the Vedic Aryans. [They were] part of a great civilization... before the dawn of civilizations." Sounds as scientific as Lemuria, Mu, or Atlantis to me: 8000 BC, of course, is just at the beginning of agriculture in the Near East, and more than 1000 years too early for Baluchistan/S.Asia; and, the *iron* age, Brahmana texts cannot be dated (a la Kak) at 2300/2900 BCE becaue of some astronomical observation; for more on this see EJVS 1999). In short: a great civilization of "Vedic" hunters and gatherers, indeed! The book has, of course, all the other trappings of the "Out of India" theory. Someone, like Klostermaier, who hails all of this -- beyond the hesitant, often avoided, "I look forward to reading your ... highly interesting, innovative, thought provoking... book", as : "highly plausible" --- where does he place himself? On the very fringe. Who *forced* him to write this? Not the RCMP, I suppose... He should have taken a lesson from Mahatma Gandhi, and I quote from memory, who wrote to Chaman Lal about his phantastic (!!) book "Hindu America" (Maya from India...), in 1944 or so: "Dear Chaman Lal, thank you for your book. I have not yet found the time to read it... *If* your conclusions are correct, this would indeed be a the great contribution to research! " Let's emulate Gandhiji! --------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 27 06:01:23 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 07:01:23 +0100 Subject: Klostermaier's Vedic civilization Message-ID: <161227063174.23782.17166548778729277034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The mainstream is always in the eye of the swimmer... > Pushed to an extreme, the above makes everything dangerously subjective, does it not? There can then be many streams, so what makes the mainstream *the* mainstream? > >K.Klostermaier (now Cambridge, UK?) was deliberatedly described as such. Yes, and I deliberately picked his example, to make the point that such things as degrees, years of training, academic positions, no. of publications and books are all of apparently of no avail. I think he is currently somewhere in Oxford. When Klostermaier's first edition of _A Survey of Hinduism_ appeared from SUNY Press, I spotted a few errors and wrote to him privately, pointing to appropriate references to back up my stand. He replied to me after going through some of the references I had mentioned. I don't think he simply accepted that I was right because of my Indian heritage. I don't think he has been forced by any extraneous considerations to accept any particular brand of thinking. And even if he thinks that there is strength to the stances of Rajaram et. al., he cannot be called New Age, without substantially redefining what one means by that term too. I hardly think a Roman Catholic priest (so I've heard) would jumble up everything from Nefertiti to Netanyahu in his personal version of religion. One could emulate Gandhiji and bring some maitrI and a sense of humour to bear upon some of these discussions. That might even be more effective in the long run. Best regards, Vidyasankar ps. I think someone should set up an anonymous survey to find out how influential various revisions of history really are. Not on the internet and mailing groups. I would expect those samples to be all inherently biased. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Fri Oct 27 13:04:21 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 09:04:21 -0400 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. In-Reply-To: <006201c04010$a4c06320$cb302cd5@pb> Message-ID: <161227063190.23782.6590024173239765262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Je pense qu'il est tres important de ne pas inventer des mots qui n'existent pas dans une langue ancienne pour des raisons evidentes; car, en le faisant, on pourrait creer la fausse impression qu'il existait de telles choses dans les civilisations de ce tamps-la. Amicalment, V. V. Raman From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 27 16:07:56 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 09:07:56 -0700 Subject: Quality Online Exhibitions Message-ID: <161227063211.23782.11531119769425294704.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: Quality Online Exhibitions http://www.asia.si.edu/devi/index.htm http://www.goloka.com/index.html Wish to know of more. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Fri Oct 27 13:12:11 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 09:12:11 -0400 Subject: Sanscrit dictionary Message-ID: <161227063193.23782.4790539285791958908.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Je pense qu'il est tres important de ne pas inventer des mots qui n'existent pas dans une langue ancienne pour des raisons evidentes; car, en le faisant, on pourrait creer la fausse impression qu'il existait de telles choses dans les civilisations de ce temps-la. Amicalment, V. V. Raman From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Fri Oct 27 14:53:51 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 09:53:51 -0500 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. Message-ID: <161227063202.23782.8131101550717875757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The "Speak Sanskrit " movement has done just this: created Sanskrit words for modern words in order to be able to use Sanskrit as a spoken language. You can contact Vasuvaj for more specific information (vasuvaj at hotmail.com) or look at their web site: www.samskrita-bharati.org. also the Kuppuswami Shastri Research Institute in Madras has published some work on Spoken Sanskrit. Claude Setzer From: "Andr? Signoret" > Bonjour, > > In order to fill out my French-Sanskrit Dictionary I am looking for words > like FIREMAN (pompier), POSTMAN (facteur), etc. From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Fri Oct 27 15:01:47 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 10:01:47 -0500 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. Message-ID: <161227063205.23782.7747683730463986123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip Ernest" > This thread refers to something I would really like to know more about. > How, and to what extent, is Sanskrit used in modern India? > > > V. V. Raman > > > Please see my recent post on Spoken Sanskrit movement. They are very active in Bangalore India at least and give regular long term classes there (months or years) with a lot of people living there basically permanently and speaking nothing but Sanskrit. They also give regular classes all over the US and had a one week Sanskrit Camp in California this last summer. I think they will be eager to put your university on there regular visit list if you write to Vasuvaj. Claude Setzer From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Fri Oct 27 14:41:39 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 10:41:39 -0400 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. In-Reply-To: <001201c0401d$37c28ca0$3e342cd5@pb> Message-ID: <161227063200.23782.16618088314231065369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This thread refers to something I would really like to know more about. How, and to what extent, is Sanskrit used in modern India? Is there still much writing done in Sanskrit (if so, it must be necessary to coin new words constantly); and is that modern Sanskrit writing merely a quirky, self-conscious peculiarity, or is it 'authentic', in the sense that it represents a more or less solid continuation of the ancient literature? I wonder if it is still spoken much, liturgically or academically. As recently as the early sixties, my father, who was educated by Jesuits in a Catholic seminary in the U.S., learned all his philosophy in Latin: only Latin was spoken in the classroom-- lectures, discussion, etc.--, his oral dissertations and examinations were in Latin. Is the same true in Indian universities? Stella Sandahl, the only (professionally) surviving Sanskritist left in the University of Toronto's once supremely great Sanskrit Department, says that, years ago, there was a course in spoken Sanskrit given here. I wonder if there still are such courses in American universities, where the Sanskrit programs seem to be as robust as they once were here, in the days before Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson's (apparently righteous) conflict with the department chairman (among other factors) resulted in the dissolution of U of T's Sanskrit department in 1980 or so. P. Ernest On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, [iso-8859-1] Andr? Signoret wrote: > Bonjour, > > First of all, congratulations for your French. I am not far from thinking > like you about "making" new words. > We are therefore condemned (but it is a pleasure !) to paraphrase our modern > words in a MODERN to ANCIENT dictionary like mine. > For instance : "Snail without shell" or "naked snail" for a "slug", > "A person who puts out a fire" for a "fireman", etc. > I gathered from somewhere (I think it was in the British Encyclopaedia)that > a number of indianists in India tried to modernize Sanskrit. Is it a > freakish idea or reality ? > > Anyhow, it is very frustrating to let a series of words outside the scope of > a dictionary ! Sanskrit already has over 1,200,000 words (compounds > included). It can survive in spite of a few additions ! > > BTW did ancient Indians ignore the word "cherry" in spite of the fact that > Japanese have known it through centuries ? > > Thank you very much with Regards. > > Andr?. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: V.V. Raman > To: > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 3:04 PM > Subject: Re: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. > > > > Je pense qu'il est tres important de ne pas inventer des mots qui > n'existent > > pas dans une langue ancienne pour des raisons evidentes; car, en le > faisant, on > > pourrait creer la fausse impression qu'il existait de telles choses dans > les > > civilisations de ce tamps-la. > > Amicalment, > > V. V. Raman > > > From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU Fri Oct 27 15:46:24 2000 From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 10:46:24 -0500 Subject: spoken Sanskrit, (fireman, etc.) In-Reply-To: <002101c04026$d6dcbfa0$0ccc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227063208.23782.80366647757666795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indologists and guests, I lived with the members of the Hindu Seva Pratishthanam's "Samskrta Vibhaga" for 6 weeks in 1989. After finding a suitable room nearby I continued to eat lunch with them daily. And once the asked me to appear in a short play which was broadcast over Durdarshan in 1990. The whole experience was memorable, and I made many friends with whom I've kept in loose touch ever since. (I described all this once before on this list, in 1995, pre-archive.) This group used to render the Sanskrit version of the monthly *Chandamama*. The thinking back then was that rendering English words into Sanskrit was o.k., but that *importing* foreign words was also very acceptable. So the word 'cricket' was just that. The attempt to translate such words into Sanskrit served no purpose, although it could be *very* entertaining. An old coinage for 'train' was 'dhuuma-zakaTa' --but this was never really used. The group used 'bus' together with '-yaana' since using the declensional forms of 'bus' would be too hard for new learners. The fully Sanskritized version was 'loka-yaana' --and 'super-deluxe bus' was "RSi-daNDa-loka-yana" a coinage which never got used except by those who appreciated the 'vizeSa' which it captured. So, coining words from modern usages was appreciated as a passtime but the pragmatists (in a *spoken* Sanskrit movement?!) prevailed and only particularly apt coinages were promoted. (My only contribution was 'navaniita-makZikaa' which, when an english-knowing person was found and explained it to the group evoked laughter but did NOT get adopted.) Coining Sanskrit words from English is something of a hobby for a few and has been going on for, I'd guess, at least a hundred years. Also, thinking back now it seems to me that those who took vows to speak only Sanskrit at home, and those who raised their kids using only Sanskrit, were actually more liberal about importing foreign words. Ashok Aklujkar once posted a nice suggestion for 'world wide web' on this list. I've now forgotten it but it was nicely alliterative. And the archive contains a reference to 'basketball' --and even Sri Lanka's national basketball team: TripiTaka-kanduka-kriDaa-sangham. (All good Buddhists no doubt!) best, Tim Cahill From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 27 10:03:14 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 11:03:14 +0100 Subject: Klostermaier's Vedic civilization In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063178.23782.10086866628881259218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > He should have taken a lesson from Mahatma Gandhi, [...] who wrote > [...] in 1944 or so: > "Dear Chaman Lal, thank you for your book. I have not yet found the > time to read it... *If* your conclusions are correct, this would > indeed be a the great contribution to research! " This reminds me of the much-quoted saying of James I, who, on being given Bacon's Novum Organum (v.l., Donne's poetry), likened it to the peace of God, "which passeth all understanding". -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Oct 27 09:04:07 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 11:04:07 +0200 Subject: Types of Indology Message-ID: <161227063176.23782.8327960419033753653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 26 October 2000 Professor Mishra wrote: > You have to distinguish between religious fanatics > and traditional scholars. That Mahabharata had anything to do with > mythical Ganesha is religion. That its writer was Vyasa is > admiration of scholarship. To identify who was vyasa or how many vyasas > existed can be modern. As it seems to me, for a true traditional (religious) scholar both Ganesha and Vyasa are real figures in equal measure. To look for any traces of Vyasa as a historical figure would be a kind of modernistic trend, but still in the frame of traditional scholarship. For a modern scholar, who is aquainted with similar images in other epic traditions, like Homer and others, Vyasa is a legendary or symbolic figure, until the opposite view is proven. > Since none of us has been as > creative as the writers of classical texts, we cannot honestly > fathom if Ganesha or Kali was involved. Scriptural writing is > very different than scientific writing. The imagination in > scriptures is fanciful and occasionally extra-human. That men/women > were able to write such material makes you think of extra attributes. > Do try to write a five page poem and post! Then empirically > examine the efforts involved.. Yes, you are quite right. I think it will take a lot of effort from me, or you, to write five pages of modern, written poetry. But it would be quite different, if anyone of us had lived for years in the milieu, in which Sanskrit epic poetry existed orally; if you or me, being still young, with fresh memory, studied for months or years traditional repertoiry of formulaic endings of the pada-s, popular formulaic expressions with theis numerous possible variations, some "pure formulas" - and so on, and so on. After such training you, or me, would be able to improvise oral epic poetry on traditional subjects for many hours and many days. And acc. to modern scholarship, the most part of the Mahabharata was created precisely in this way. It was the text improvised at every performance; the bards could sing in this way, according to some scholarly calculations, about 900 shlokas per day! No wonder that in any ancient culture the art of an oral poet, the art of improvisation was considered a supernatural, "extra human" gift. In a way poetic inspiration, creative improvisation really has something mysterious in it. No wonder, that people's admiration of this sacred gift found its expression in special images of legendary, divinely inspired poets: in the Mbh they are sUta SaMjaya with his dIvyacakSus, and (in the later Epic layer) VyAsa with his his Vedic authority. That is how I see it, though I am ready to discuss any other point of view if it is not just a guess, made in passing, but could be supported with solid arguments. Best regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From mlbd at VSNL.COM Fri Oct 27 07:58:29 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 13:28:29 +0530 Subject: India's Scientific Heritage Message-ID: <161227063182.23782.11195061914673561919.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Dominik, Since your Indology list & new Indology list covers a sizeable community, please read below the information we wish to pass on to all the scholars in your lists. By separate e-mail I shall send you about the above series that will be released shortly. Please let me know the address of the person below whose name is Namrata Shirodkar. Is she part of your list & whether or not she happens to be an Indologist. If so, what is her area of specialisation? Looking for to hear from you Regards R P Jain -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:41 AM Subject: Re: "Science" in India > On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > > RB> Going by the name, I think namrata bose is female. > > I'm sure you're right. As in Namrata Shirodkar :-) > > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Fri Oct 27 18:10:55 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 14:10:55 -0400 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. In-Reply-To: <002101c04026$d6dcbfa0$0ccc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227063213.23782.17234794249086965006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are only two professors here, and not many more students, who know Sanskrit; but I may look into it just the same. I have a terrible fear that whenever Stella Sandahl retires, the university will not hire a replacement, and Sanskrit will no longer be taught at this university that once housed the largest Sanskrit department outside of India. Maybe the Speak Sanskrit movement can drum up some enthusiasm for the language, particularly among Toronto's large South Asian population. P.E. On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Claude Setzer wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phillip Ernest" > > > > This thread refers to something I would really like to know more about. > > How, and to what extent, is Sanskrit used in modern India? > > > V. V. > Raman > > > > > Please see my recent post on Spoken Sanskrit movement. They are very active > in Bangalore India at least and give regular long term classes there (months > or years) with a lot of people living there basically permanently and > speaking nothing but Sanskrit. They also give regular classes all over the > US and had a one week Sanskrit Camp in California this last summer. I think > they will be eager to put your university on there regular visit list if you > write to Vasuvaj. > > Claude Setzer > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Oct 27 13:10:56 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 14:10:56 +0100 Subject: India's Scientific Heritage In-Reply-To: <023001c04006$28ebd720$3a9c09ca@ravi> Message-ID: <161227063188.23782.2199645114689633884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Jain (and list), I am delighted to know about your new series, and I am -- as you know -- an admirer of your publishing house, with which I am happy to collaborate closely. But it is a long-standing rule that the INDOLOGY list is not to be used for any commercial purposes. Your announcement falls somewhere in a grey area: we are all academically interested to know about a new book series in our field; on the other hand, it is clearly in your commercial interests to promote your publications through the INDOLOGY list. So I would request you in future to write to me personally on matters of this type, and allow me to act as a mediator. I can edit your announcement into a brief form suitable for the list's members, if I think fit. I do not know if you are aware, but you have posted your message about the new series to the list five times now! I must ask you most vigorously not to do so again. Do you realize your five postings will have created over three thousand email messages. The recipients will certainly be annoyed by the repetitious postings, and this may have the very opposite effect to that you are hoping for. It may be that you are posting to the list by accident. Please make sure that your email address for me does not include the "indology" address. Warmest regards, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR Fri Oct 27 12:22:13 2000 From: sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Signoret?=) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 14:22:13 +0200 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. Message-ID: <161227063185.23782.2959846421966459067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, In order to fill out my French-Sanskrit Dictionary I am looking for words like FIREMAN (pompier), POSTMAN (facteur), etc. I don't even know if such words existed in the past ! What about the sanskritization of existing Hindi words ? This is my first intrusion into INDOLOGY which I consider to be a very useful means of improving my knowledge of special vocabulary. I consulted all on-line dictionaries and did not find these current words. The same for CHERRY (cerise) and many others. Many thanks in advance. Andr? Signoret Les Romarins 84460 CHEVAL-BLANC T?l. +33(0)490710910 Portable 0609450202 E-mail : sanskrit at club-internet.fr Site Web : http://asignoret.free.fr/index.html From mlbd at VSNL.COM Fri Oct 27 08:58:55 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 14:28:55 +0530 Subject: India's Scientific Heritage Message-ID: <161227063180.23782.10387910010763316178.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, Shortly, in the near future, we are going to launch a new series called: India's Scientific Heritage, General Editor, Dr L M Singhvi. While the series will begin with lot of volumes on Vedic & Jain Mathematics, but in addition, we'd like to cover all subjects on Indian Sciences. Recently, when I read thru your list I found many scholars have commented on "Sciences" in India. I'd like your group covering your lists to benefit from our forthcoming series. I am sure these scholars would be interested in publishing their future manuscripts with us if they have anything ready in these areas. If you announce our forthcoming series to all your members, I am sure, they would be pleased to get this important information. Moreover, in the last 2 years we have organised nearly 25 Workshops on Vedic & Jain Mathematics across the country virtually free of cost for the benefit of spreading the message that when Vedic Maths happens to be in the school curriculum in England, Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, USA & Singapore, then, why can't it get into the curriculum of its home country where it originated. The demand for more workshops is slowly, but steadily growing in India & so we are quite positive that the forum still to be formulated soon in Nagpur & Delhi is likely to create forceful waves in the country. Dr L M Singhvi will lead this forum: International Research & Resource Foundation for Indian Heritage incorporating World Academy for Vedic Mathematics. Warmest personal regards R P Jain -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Oct 27 14:28:48 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 15:28:48 +0100 Subject: Dravidian sub-stratum in Afghanistan Message-ID: <161227063197.23782.12028751522790325559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While visiting Ajanthaa caves in late 1998,I heard an Indian guide telling high school student visitors that Lord Raama came from Afghanistan through Khyber pass to India sitting on a horse while Buddha was born in India. The statement startled me.But then, Dr. Kochhar(Vedic People-p.94) connected the river Haroyu of Afghanistan to the river Sarayu associted with Vedic river name.To the best of my knowledge, in the interview of Dr. Kochhar published in Illustrated Weekly of India(about 12 yrs ago),Raama and his capital city Ayodhyaa was said to be located in the land of the ancient Afghanistan (Please correct me if I were wrong). Sometime ago, Raama's dynasty name Ikshwaaku was traced to the earlier Dravidian form.Dr. Kochhar connects at least some part of RV composition to the land of Afghanistan. Prof.Witzel tells us about 300 non-Indo-Aryan words(4%) in RV.Here is the question-Does the Dravidian, or Munda/Para-Munda sub-stratum extend well into Afghanistan from the side of Pakistan? Yes or no? Any evidence for or against? If we discover such ancient non-Indo-Aryan sub-stratum in Afghanistan, would not be then interesting to find out the number of non- Indo-Aryan words out of 300 from Afghanistan sub-stratum? For this reason, I asked the question in my posting some time ago about the eaelier vesions of the names Baloch and Brahui? From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Oct 27 22:42:27 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 15:42:27 -0700 Subject: New Harappan Gallery Message-ID: <161227063216.23782.1446289767779988324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those questioning the impact of Hindutva views of history on Indology should look at this story in the 28 October (Saturday) issue of The Times of India. The story discusses the controversial new Harappan Gallery in the National Museum in New Delhi. Much more will be published on this story in other publications in the next few weeks. Note the ringing endorsement of the new exhibit by N.S. Rajaram. http://www.timesofindia.com/today/28home6.htm From sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR Fri Oct 27 13:52:09 2000 From: sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Signoret?=) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 15:52:09 +0200 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. Message-ID: <161227063195.23782.7819167215528072808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, First of all, congratulations for your French. I am not far from thinking like you about "making" new words. We are therefore condemned (but it is a pleasure !) to paraphrase our modern words in a MODERN to ANCIENT dictionary like mine. For instance : "Snail without shell" or "naked snail" for a "slug", "A person who puts out a fire" for a "fireman", etc. I gathered from somewhere (I think it was in the British Encyclopaedia)that a number of indianists in India tried to modernize Sanskrit. Is it a freakish idea or reality ? Anyhow, it is very frustrating to let a series of words outside the scope of a dictionary ! Sanskrit already has over 1,200,000 words (compounds included). It can survive in spite of a few additions ! BTW did ancient Indians ignore the word "cherry" in spite of the fact that Japanese have known it through centuries ? Thank you very much with Regards. Andr?. ----- Original Message ----- From: V.V. Raman To: Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 3:04 PM Subject: Re: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. > Je pense qu'il est tres important de ne pas inventer des mots qui n'existent > pas dans une langue ancienne pour des raisons evidentes; car, en le faisant, on > pourrait creer la fausse impression qu'il existait de telles choses dans les > civilisations de ce tamps-la. > Amicalment, > V. V. Raman > From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Oct 28 03:28:03 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 00 20:28:03 -0700 Subject: New Harappan Gallery Message-ID: <161227063220.23782.5588982035117942466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: > Those questioning the impact of Hindutva views of history on > Indology should look at this story in the 28 October (Saturday) > issue of The Times of India.... > > http://www.timesofindia.com/today/28home6.htm Ravi Chaundhary wrote: > and I thought Dr Farmer to quote his own words, was embarking on an truly > exciting project, "The higher nature of man" I don't catch your meaning, but you certainly *aren't* quoting my words. However, I believe that it is part of an historian's job to combat willful distortions of the past -- in this case, concerning Harappan and Vedic cultures. The meaning of the phrase "History is the propaganda of the victorious" may become a lot clearer to scholars than they like if they ignore trends like those covered in this story. Obviously a lot of other historians (read the story) are disturbed about it as well. Steve Farmer From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Sat Oct 28 04:04:36 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 00:04:36 -0400 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063223.23782.5419466900688376266.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings- As a student of Buddhist Tantra, I am interested in how Indra's Vajra came to have connotations like "adamantine" "diamond" "indestructible". I have been looking at the occurrences in the Rigveda, and notice that it is sometimes described as made or iron or metal and with edges (sounding much like the Tibetan rdo rje). Macdonell mentions that it is "sometimes spoken of as a stone or rock." Does anyone know what he is referring to, or of any works or monographs on this interesting word? Thank you Dante Rosati http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/prajna.html From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 28 04:33:09 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 00:33:09 -0400 Subject: New Harappan Gallery In-Reply-To: <39FA47BF.B0A81B41@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227063226.23782.17548711257782481011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, You sent message of guillotine to me, Michael and others while we discussed about the foundations of Indology. Now what's this? How does this list care what hindutva people do in India? We are entering another round now. Apparently there is an exhibition. shall we extrapolate how uneducated the organizers are and then say everyone else with some tint lacks analytic skills? How about using guillotine? BM On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > I wrote: > > > Those questioning the impact of Hindutva views of history on > > Indology should look at this story in the 28 October (Saturday) > > issue of The Times of India.... > > > > http://www.timesofindia.com/today/28home6.htm > > Ravi Chaundhary wrote: > > > and I thought Dr Farmer to quote his own words, was embarking on an truly > > exciting project, "The higher nature of man" > > I don't catch your meaning, but you certainly *aren't* quoting my > words. However, I believe that it is part of an historian's job > to combat willful distortions of the past -- in this case, > concerning Harappan and Vedic cultures. The meaning of the phrase > "History is the propaganda of the victorious" may become a lot > clearer to scholars than they like if they ignore trends like > those covered in this story. Obviously a lot of other historians > (read the story) are disturbed about it as well. > > Steve Farmer > From carloslopez at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 28 04:35:02 2000 From: carloslopez at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 00:35:02 -0400 Subject: vajra In-Reply-To: <023701c04094$2fbb10a0$0f981d18@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <161227063228.23782.7245803909621356887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dante You might want to take a look at Das Gupta, Tapan Kumar, Der Vajra, eine vedische Waffe. Wiesbaden : In Kommission bei F. Steiner, 1975. CL **************************************************************************** ************* Dr. Carlos Lopez calopez at fas.harvard.edu Dept. of Religion ph. #: 850-644-8094 Florida State University **************************************************************************** ************ > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Rosati > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:05 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: vajra > > > Greetings- > > As a student of Buddhist Tantra, I am interested in how Indra's Vajra came > to have connotations like "adamantine" "diamond" "indestructible". I have > been looking at the occurrences in the Rigveda, and notice that it is > sometimes described as made or iron or metal and with edges (sounding much > like the Tibetan rdo rje). Macdonell mentions that it is "sometimes spoken > of as a stone or rock." Does anyone know what he is referring to, > or of any > works or monographs on this interesting word? > > Thank you > > Dante Rosati > http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/prajna.html > From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 28 10:25:01 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 03:25:01 -0700 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063236.23782.12256801201158593051.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dante, Might the following ensemble of un-cited data have any relevance to the inquiry? Can any of it be substantiated or shown to be false? Is there anything worthy of amplification? Abstract: Vajra, Vajravaada & Li.nga Among the Indian Buddhist schools, Tantra generally goes by the name of Vajrayaana, the "diamond-" or "thunderbolt-vehicle." But its original name was probably Vajravaada, the "thunderbolt-way." Vajra or "thunderbolt" is apparently the Buddhist version of the li.nga, and the vajravaada most likely indicated a special erotic ritual. Li.nga itself appears to be derived from the very early Austric language. In its earliest sense, then, li.nga denotes a primitive "plough" or "digging stick." It is said that before the invading Aryans entered the Indus Valley Civilization (present-day Pakistan), they had never encountered the li.nga-worship. Initially they were horrified by the cult. They contemptuously referred to Ziva as ZiZna-devataa or "penis-deity" and forbade all contacts with his worshippers. rgrds. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 28 02:48:52 2000 From: Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ravi Chaudhary) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 03:48:52 +0100 Subject: New Harappan Gallery Message-ID: <161227063218.23782.10438715101986900819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> and I thought Dr Farmer to quote his own words, was embarking on an truly exciting project, " The higher nature of man" Regards Ravi Chaudhary From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sat Oct 28 12:05:37 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 08:05:37 -0400 Subject: vajra In-Reply-To: <001b01c040d2$f41b17e0$331c2cd5@pb> Message-ID: <161227063242.23782.4458586213905635005.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rom: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Andr=E9_Signoret?= Did you mean or for ? According toMonier Williams is , . V. V. Raman From rpeck at NECA.COM Sat Oct 28 13:59:25 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 09:59:25 -0400 Subject: India's Greatness Message-ID: <161227063247.23782.14742956030567956621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to Bijoy Misra?s statement, ?Can we give the country (India) some credit that is due?. I find that perhaps one needs to start with Bhadraiah Mallampalli statement, ?that the gut is where the Vedic somA is located?. >???From this, I offer the following view. I see the unique power of somA manifested with the works coming out of early India (via Indra?s net?) such as: 1) teaching of the fundamental metrology units of physics, the mahabhutas; 2) introducing the control elements of the mind and body, tattvas; 3) describing the basic elements of philosophy: of nothingness, the primordial element, the manifesting of the sun and moon or Law and matter, the union of the sun and moon for creation or manifesting; 4) describing the fundamental elements of religious experience: creative energy, gnosis, heaven, spirit, soul, physical self and enlightened self; 5) a system for the development of the body and mind to fully experience the ecstasy of life or heaven on earth. Modern social graces suppress the production of somA. Modern materialism denies somA. Institutions suppress individual creativity and power. The manifesting of somA, however, is still evidenced in the modern world in such situations as meeting trauma, extreme demands, needs or in intense searching or service. The physical generation of somA is as written with inner gut tension, pounding, pressing, churning and filtering. The measurable physiological changes in the body are in agreement with early descriptions. I apologize for the brevity and lack of available supportive details, but do wish to share my intense interest in India and what I believe to be its generally suppressed or unrecognized unique contributions to the world with fellow admirers on this site. Thank you all, Bob Peck rpeck at neca.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 28 17:07:48 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 10:07:48 -0700 Subject: somA and materialism Message-ID: <161227063251.23782.707879881858868259.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yeah, Krsna let rip a long time ago on this: "Those scum off the bottom of the barrel of humanity whose knowledge is the provenance of Scientific Myth and whose natures are utterly fiendish and dark ? They won't get any of MY chilum!" (Bg. 7.15) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Oct 28 09:43:45 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 10:43:45 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063230.23782.2625004939905572363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "RM. Krishnan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 4:17 PM . > Karthikai theepam is declining gradually. Why festivals? Even our own > Dravidian religions of Saivam and VaiNavam have been subsumed/ submerged > into the so-called Hindu religion/ SanAthana Dharma) . Can you tell me when do the words "Saivam" and "VaiNavam" occur in the Tamil literature. For example do they occur in the Prabhandam or Nayanmar works itself? or do they occur much later? As far as I can see these words are the Tamil translations of the English words Saivism and Vaishnavism. But the Tamil texts themselves were unaware of 'ism's. But still it would be interesting to know when do these two words in the sense of 'isms's appear in the Tamil texts From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Oct 28 10:06:35 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 11:06:35 +0100 Subject: New Harappan Gallery In-Reply-To: <39FA47BF.B0A81B41@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227063232.23782.4655258651963841713.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was very interested in the Times of India article, and I'm grateful to Steve Farmer for drawing our attention to it. But I am equally determined that this posting will not become an excuse for another slanging match on the AIT topic. Ravi Chaudhary's remark was as opaque to me as to Farmer, but it was apparently meant to be insulting in a sneery sort of way. No more postings on this topic at this time! We have the information. Thanks for that. Now we move on. I welcome brief, factual postings of URLs when they point to important new developments in the issue, and I would include the National Museum's exhibition in that category. I shall certainly cancel the subscriptions of anyone else who posts messages devoid of scholarly input, aimed merely at wounding an opponent. Ravi Chaudhary and others - you have been warned. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sat Oct 28 15:46:26 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 11:46:26 -0400 Subject: somA and materialism Message-ID: <161227063249.23782.12775305437893875354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am not so sure that (Bob Peck's assessment) that: is entirely accurate. What materialism/science maintains (rightly or wrongly) is that there is a basis for somA, and it tries to explore via the rigid, empirical, observationally verifiable scientific methodology the physical roots of somA and of a hundred other intangible experiences associated with the human experience. Giving due respect to many ancient insights/intuiton/revelations, this methodology is fairly recent in human history (less than five hundred years), and it has led to many fruitful results (including antibiotics, pain-relievers and the e-mail, let alone the discovery of entities like planet Pluto and helium gas which are not directly perceptible to the normal channels of perception. Others have every right to reject/decry/ignore this methodology, or even call it a Western prejudiced worldview, but it is important not to misunderstand or (unwittingly) misrepresent what scientific materialism maintains. V. V. Raman October 28, 2000 From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 28 11:53:27 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 11:53:27 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063240.23782.2702332619216373731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >As far as I can see these words are the Tamil translations of the English >words Saivism and Vaishnavism. Aren't they Sanskrit, rather than English? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 28 13:13:54 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 13:13:54 +0000 Subject: potters, brahmins, and RSis Message-ID: <161227063244.23782.17161356826996717099.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1) potters, brahmins, and RSis, http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9709&L=indology&P=R17307 2) "vELAppArppAn2": potter-priest or non-sacrificing brahmin? http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9805&L=indology&P=R18709 An anthropologist's remarks on relations between potters and priests can be found in: Chapter 7. The Potter and the Priest in M. N. Srinivas, Indian Society through Personal Writings, OUP, 1997 Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR Sat Oct 28 11:32:51 2000 From: sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Signoret?=) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 13:32:51 +0200 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063238.23782.15985006020409487234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, What about "vajra pa?jara-" as "cage de Faraday - Faraday cage". I don't know where I picked up that but it is still in my dictionary for it appeals to me ! If "exaggerated", I will cancel it ! Thanks. "De l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace !" (Danton) Andr? Signoret ----- Original Message ----- From: Ven. Tantra To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:25 PM Subject: vajra > Dante, > > Might the following ensemble of un-cited data have any > relevance to the inquiry? Can any of it be > substantiated or shown to be false? Is there anything > worthy of amplification? > > Abstract: Vajra, Vajravaada & Li.nga > > Among the Indian Buddhist schools, Tantra generally > goes by the name of Vajrayaana, the "diamond-" or > "thunderbolt-vehicle." But its original name was > probably Vajravaada, the "thunderbolt-way." Vajra or > "thunderbolt" is apparently the Buddhist version of > the li.nga, and the vajravaada most likely indicated a > special erotic ritual. Li.nga itself appears to be > derived from the very early Austric language. In its > earliest sense, then, li.nga denotes a primitive > "plough" or "digging stick." It is said that before > the invading Aryans entered the Indus Valley > Civilization (present-day Pakistan), they had never > encountered the li.nga-worship. Initially they were > horrified by the cult. They contemptuously referred to > Ziva as ZiZna-devataa or "penis-deity" and forbade all > contacts with his worshippers. > > rgrds. > VT > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Oct 28 18:21:20 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 14:21:20 -0400 Subject: OUTLOOK on Rajaram's Fraud & Fantasy Message-ID: <161227063257.23782.14072751770820147469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A short version of Steve Farmer's and my paper on Rajaram's & Jha's 'decipherment' of the Indus script and the inherent Piltdown Horse has just now appeared in the Indian news magazine OUTLOOK (Nov. 6) http://www.outlookindia.com/20001106/features3.htm -- hardly a "communist rag", as some have called the bearer of our first communication, FRONTLINE: http://www.indiaserver.com/frontline/2000/09/30/ (NB: watch out for Rajaram's answer and for some more discussion forthcoming in Frontline!) However, the Outlook editors have made a few small changes, one serious. They have added: "(In other words, the prevalence of the horse will disprove the commonly-accepted theory that the speakers of Indo-Aryan came from outside and were responsible for the disintegration of the Indus Civilisation.)" I had advised them to change that addition to: "(The prevalence of the horse would disprove the commonly-accepted theory that the speakers of Indo-Aryan ("Aryans") came from outside; however, archaeologists no longer maintain that they were also responsible for the disintegration of the Indus civilization.) " But, it must have slipped past the editors. Oh well, one more (wrongly attributed) quote to live with! Apparently, Wheeler's "Indra stands accused" is firmly ensconsed in the minds... MW> ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Oct 28 18:36:59 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 14:36:59 -0400 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063259.23782.9129542967165470226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/28/2000 4:39:25 AM Central Daylight Time, vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK writes: > As far as I can see these words are the Tamil translations of the English > words Saivism and Vaishnavism. But the Tamil texts themselves were unaware > of 'ism's. I would appreciate if Vijayaraghavan could clarify the above statement. I would like to know if he is saying: 1. That Hindu sectarian divisions did not exist in the Tamil society before the advent of the British? 2. Or if they did, they could not have coined these terms to identify these sects. 3. If his contention is that they could not have coined these terms, what are the linguistic/sociological/religious reasons? 4. What were the Tamil terms that Tamils used to refer to these sects? When he says, "As far as I can see...", is it based on any specific textual evidence? I would appreciate if he could give the source texts for this statement. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sat Oct 28 13:47:58 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 14:47:58 +0100 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063245.23782.17051947433345334375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Venkatraman Iyer" To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:53 PM Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems > >As far as I can see these words are the Tamil translations of the English > >words Saivism and Vaishnavism. > > Aren't they Sanskrit, rather than English? I was looking at the two Tamil words ( Saivam and vainavam) as religious ideologies or movements. The focus was on the ideological aspect rather than the names of the gods which are Sanskrit origin. From samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 28 16:06:57 2000 From: samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM (sthanesvar timalsina) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 16:06:57 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063234.23782.15731262536482346409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Rosati, Vajra of Indra would have taken a long course to give the meaning of Adamantine nature. To mediate the weapon and adamantine nature, there exists one ritual "vajrayAga". In this vajra attains a position of a complete ritual from one single weapon. The studies on ritual and philosophy can shed light more. Yours, Sthaneshvar >From: Rosati >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: vajra >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:04:36 -0400 > >Greetings- > >As a student of Buddhist Tantra, I am interested in how Indra's Vajra came >to have connotations like "adamantine" "diamond" "indestructible". I have >been looking at the occurrences in the Rigveda, and notice that it is >sometimes described as made or iron or metal and with edges (sounding much >like the Tibetan rdo rje). Macdonell mentions that it is "sometimes spoken >of as a stone or rock." Does anyone know what he is referring to, or of any >works or monographs on this interesting word? > >Thank you > >Dante Rosati >http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/prajna.html _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 28 17:49:20 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 18:49:20 +0100 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063253.23782.2400303457372240582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: > Among the Indian Buddhist schools, Tantra generally > goes by the name of Vajrayaana, the "diamond-" or > "thunderbolt-vehicle." But does it ? Admittedly I am more familiar with early Buddhist tantras -- those preceeding the anutarrayoga category -- but the term "vajrayaana" does not seem to be that common in Indic text connected to the tantras. I note that it is used in the Sarva-tathaagata-tattva-sa.mgraha. Your suggestion that "vajra" is linked to "li`nga" may reflect later associations but these must be derivative since the STTS does not have any sexual rituals or imagery. The STTS must precede the Guhya-samaaja-tantra which seems to be the first Buddhist tantric text to use sexual imagery. Historically what seems to be used to indicate the "tantric path" was initially (late 7th to mid 8th century CE) "mantra-naya" (in contrast to "paaramitaa-naya". This then changes a little later to "mantra-yaana" (or "guhya-mantra-yaana) which continues to be the generally preferred term. Admittedly the term "vajra-yaana" is widely used in native Tibetan works but I wonder if its popularity in modern works is actually based on Tibetan usage -- there are quite a number of these occuring in modern studies in a Sanskrit guise even when they have have no genuine Indic origin. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge Also reagrding the connection between lightning and diamonds, my understanding is that diamonds, as also meteorites/tektites were though to be produced from lightning striking the ground. But its original name was > probably Vajravaada, the "thunderbolt-way." Vajra or > "thunderbolt" is apparently the Buddhist version of > the li.nga, and the vajravaada most likely indicated a > special erotic ritual. Li.nga itself appears to be > derived from the very early Austric language. In its > earliest sense, then, li.nga denotes a primitive > "plough" or "digging stick." It is said that before > the invading Aryans entered the Indus Valley > Civilization (present-day Pakistan), they had never > encountered the li.nga-worship. Initially they were > horrified by the cult. They contemptuously referred to > Ziva as ZiZna-devataa or "penis-deity" and forbade all > contacts with his worshippers. > > rgrds. > VT > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Oct 28 18:17:08 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 19:17:08 +0100 Subject: vajra In-Reply-To: <023701c04094$2fbb10a0$0f981d18@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <161227063255.23782.16427425684060409058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At a dayschool on planetary science today, I had the opportunity to handle some meteorites. There were several distinct kinds, some made of iron, some of stone, and some of a mixture of the two, depending on their planetary or other origins. The iron meteorites were *extremely* heavy. (One of them had quite distinct "edges".) We were told that "thunderbolt iron" from meteorites has a high nickel content, similar to that of stainless steel, and was prized in some ancient civilizations (e.g. among the Celts) as being tougher than any other kind of iron. Which set me to thinking about Dante Rosati's enquiry.... Valerie J. Roebuck Manchester, UK Dante Rosati writes: >As a student of Buddhist Tantra, I am interested in how Indra's Vajra came >to have connotations like "adamantine" "diamond" "indestructible". I have >been looking at the occurrences in the Rigveda, and notice that it is >sometimes described as made or iron or metal and with edges (sounding much >like the Tibetan rdo rje). Macdonell mentions that it is "sometimes spoken >of as a stone or rock." Does anyone know what he is referring to, or of any >works or monographs on this interesting word? From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sat Oct 28 20:38:25 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 20:38:25 +0000 Subject: vajra In-Reply-To: <39FB2D77.32CC21EC@uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227063271.23782.17574561643840518698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Haru, On an impressionistic basis I had thought Mantrayaana to be earlier or at least earlier in general usage than Vajrayaana. What is the situation for, say pre-ninth century material ? >The term vajrayaana is very common indeed in Indian Buddhist tantric >literature. As Stephen Hodge mentions, it is used in the >Sarvatathaagatatattvasa.mgraha. There are hundreds, probably thousands, >of >other occurrences. >Mantrayaana is indeed found in Indian texts preserved in Sanskrit. But >it >is much less common a term than vajrayaana. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Sat Oct 28 19:48:07 2000 From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 21:48:07 +0200 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063261.23782.17399147069707399620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: > Ven Tantra wrote: > > Among the Indian Buddhist schools, Tantra generally > > goes by the name of Vajrayaana, the "diamond-" or > > "thunderbolt-vehicle." > > But does it ? Admittedly I am more familiar with early Buddhist > tantras -- those preceeding the anutarrayoga category -- but the term > "vajrayaana" does not seem to be that common in Indic text connected > to the tantras. I note that it is used in the > Sarva-tathaagata-tattva-sa.mgraha. The term vajrayaana is very common indeed in Indian Buddhist tantric literature. As Stephen Hodge mentions, it is used in the Sarvatathaagatatattvasa.mgraha. There are hundreds, probably thousands, of other occurrences. > Your suggestion that "vajra" is > linked to "li`nga" may reflect later associations but these must be > derivative since the STTS does not have any sexual rituals or imagery. > The STTS must precede the Guhya-samaaja-tantra which seems to be the > first Buddhist tantric text to use sexual imagery. It is true that the STTS must precede the Guhyasamaajatantra. But that the STTS does not have any sexual rituals/imagery is, I would say, incorrect. > Historically what > seems to be used to indicate the "tantric path" was initially (late > 7th to mid 8th century CE) "mantra-naya" (in contrast to > "paaramitaa-naya". This then changes a little later to > "mantra-yaana" (or "guhya-mantra-yaana) which continues to be the > generally preferred term. Mantrayaana is indeed found in Indian texts preserved in Sanskrit. But it is much less common a term than vajrayaana. And I don't think I know of a single occurrence of guhyamantrayaana (note that Tibetan gsang sngags kyi theg pa is found to translate simply mantrayaana in those cases known to me where the Sanskrit original can be checked; apart from this comound). I'd be interested to learn of one, if Stephen Hodge has indeed come across the term in a text preserved in Sanskrit. I have seen the word guhyamantranaya, but this seems to be very rare. Mantranaya, which as Stephen Hodge says is an early term, contrasting with paaramitaanaya, continues also to be used, by the way, all the way up to 1200 (and probably later, in material written in Nepal). Harunaga Isaacson Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Universit?t Hamburg From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Oct 28 21:07:49 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 22:07:49 +0100 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063265.23782.10561311575509696881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harunaga Isaacson wrote: >The term vajrayaana is very common indeed in Indian Buddhist tantric literature. As Stephen Hodge mentions, it is used in the Sarvatathaagatatattvasa.mgraha. There are hundreds, probably thousands, of other occurrences. ***** Well, I did caution that I was more familar with pre-anuttara-yoga material. I have had a quick look at the index to the Chinese translation which cites only one occurence of "vajra-yaana". I have not come across the term in any of the kriyaa or caryaa tantras nor the commentaries thereto. This suggests that "vajrayaana" was coined or began to come into use around the time that the STTS was composed -- perhaps late 7th century. Based on what Harunaga says, given his familiarity with later tantric material, the term gained popularity later. It would be interesting to see, in light of Ven Tantra's suggestion, whether "vajra-yaana" was more popular among the circles that produced the "mother / yogini" class of tantras. > But that the STTS does not have any sexual rituals/imagery is, I would say, > incorrect. I originally wrote "overt sexual rituals/imagery" but deleted "overt". True, there are elements that may be interpreted in that sense but they are still very tenuous and not central -- neither Shakyamitra nor Buddhaguhya make any mention of that kind of interpretation. If it does not involve great trouble on your part, I would be interested to know what passages you believe involve sexual rituals -- though I know of one that you may have in mind. As for sexual imagery, perhaps that's in the eye of the beholder :) > Mantrayaana is indeed found in Indian texts preserved in Sanskrit. > But it is much less common a term than vajrayaana. That's simply because the Buddhists tantric texts that survive overwhelmingly belong to the anuttara-yoga tantra class. There was obviously a transition from "mantra-naya" which commentators like Buddhaguhya use exclusively, to "mantra-yaana" whcih the co-existed with the apparently later but more popular "vajra-yaana". It is interesting to note, however, that throughout the Tshig-mdzod chen-mo dictionary, that the Tibetan equivalent of "mantra-yaana" is used in all relevent definitions involving the tantric path. > And I don't think I know of a single occurrence of guhyamantrayaana (note that Tibetan gsang sngags kyi theg pa is found to translate simply mantrayaana in those cases known to me where the Sanskrit original can be checked; apart from this comound). ... I have seen the word guhyamantranaya, but this seems to be very rare. ****** Perhaps I am guilty of the precocious re-Sanskritizing from Tibetan I alluded to :) However, the term "guhya-mantra-yaana" may have existed since I am fairly certain I have seen the Chinese equivalent in Chinese translations of tantric material. If "guhya-mantra-naya" existed, then it is not unreasonable to suppose "guhya-mantra-yaana" might have also existed even if unattested. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Sat Oct 28 20:09:46 2000 From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 00 22:09:46 +0200 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063263.23782.13976192842493775507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies for writing over hastily and inflicting a garbled sentence on readers: > (note that Tibetan gsang sngags > kyi > theg pa is found to translate simply mantrayaana in those cases known to > me where the Sanskrit original can be checked; apart from this comound). The last part of the above should read something like 'apart from in this compound, gsang sngags quite commonly renders just mantra'. Harunaga Isaacson Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibet Universit?t Hamburg From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Oct 29 04:15:05 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 00:15:05 -0400 Subject: No 'Sarasvati' from Rajaram In-Reply-To: <006a01c040e7$49241b60$120053be@lianda> Message-ID: <161227063267.23782.7560163851654312153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> We have been notified of another paper about Rajaram's Fraud & Fantasy which is most interesting: Apart from describing "Horseplay", it says: New Delhi , October 13 ...."The National Book Trust (NBT) is not publishing the controversial book >?From Saraswati River to Indus Script by engineer-turned-historian N S Rajaram and palaeographist Dr Natwar Jha. The director of NBT, N K Bhattacharjee has denied receiving any instructions form the government to publish it. This negates Rajaram's claim that the government has "advised" the NBT to publish his book not just in English but also in thirteen Indian languages. ".... http://www.tehelka.com/currentaffairs/OCT2000/ca101300horses1.htm Apparently, occasionally, standing up & be counted helps. MW> ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Sun Oct 29 11:27:49 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 06:27:49 -0500 Subject: -isms Message-ID: <161227063277.23782.10143361119877097296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. The ending -ism (French -ism, Spanish -ismo, Latin/German -ismus) is clearly English. Contrary to the sensitivity of some neo-Hindus, who don't like the word Hinduism, there is no (necessary) negative connotation to it. In some contexts, it could correspond to the Sanskrit suffix -vAda or -siddhAnta. In this sense, Shaivism and Vaishnavism are words created for use in English. 2. It does not follow that that their equivalents did not exist in classical (Pre-English) Tamil where one used the words saivam or saivamadam or saivasamayam and vainavam or vainavamadam to connote these words. SaivasiddhAntam refers to the philosophical/metaphysical underpinnings of saivam. V. V. Raman October 29, 2000 From fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU Sun Oct 29 12:41:20 2000 From: fp7 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Frances Pritchett) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 07:41:20 -0500 Subject: Quality Online Exhibitions In-Reply-To: <20001027160756.24445.qmail@web1004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227063283.23782.10899300588837203032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ven. Tantra wrote: > Subject: Quality Online Exhibitions > > http://www.asia.si.edu/devi/index.htm > http://www.goloka.com/index.html > > Wish to know of more. > Here are a few more suggestions: http://www.picatype.com/dig/dig.htm good on archaeology; also features Sir William Jones's "Sacontala" http://cofah.utsa.edu/drinka/pie/pie.html good for introducing students to Indo-European comparisons http://kaladarshan.arts.ohio-state.edu/ great resource on Nepali Buddhist (and Hindu) culture and works of art http://www.asienhaus.org/galerie/lkws/english/lkw.htm a look at decorative truck painting in Pakistan http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/rc/ on the Madhubani painting tradition in Bihar I hope they prove enjoyable, Fran Pritchett From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 29 08:59:41 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 08:59:41 +0000 Subject: New Harappan Gallery (fwd) Message-ID: <161227063273.23782.14135432935375103749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forward some links provided by Arun Gupta. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 01:42:26 +0100 From: Arun Gupta Subject: Re: New Harappan Gallery [...] News-item regarding the opening of the new Harappan Gallery in the National Museum, Delhi : Hi-tech Harappa gallery is open http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/09/20/stories/ 14202183.htm [Scroll to the bottom of ] http://www.taazakhabar.com/2000/September/20/artculture202.htm Picture from inaugural at http://pib.nic.in/archieve/phtgalry/pgyr2000/pg092000/pg19sep2000/ 190920009.html Another story re the exhibit http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/210900/detCIT01.asp National Booktrust not publishing Rajaram's book http://www.tehelka.com/currentaffairs/OCT2000/ ca101300horses1.htm One more story on the gallery with a great photograph: http://www.tehelka.com/ca083100hara1.htm Unrelated -- copper in Harappan culture http://vigyanprasar.com/dream/august99/AUGUSTArticle1.htm Story on the gallery for kids : http://www.pitara.com/news/news_india/online.asp?story=104 Article from August 1999 ( pay to read) Is National Museum rewriting history ? http://www.indiainformer.com/en/sbin/mat_iarecord?NS-search-set=/ 38158/aaaa005il1586cf&NS-doc-offset=68& About the "hi-tech" at the exhibit (audio equipment) http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/210100/detNAT08.htm [Not related] -- general story on IVC: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/week_indus.html An article about IVC comparable to the one by D.N.Jha on the Indology web-site : http://wzw.xitami.net/indowindow/sad/godown/history/RSSIndus.htm -arun gupta From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Sun Oct 29 10:02:05 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (V.C.Vijayaraghavan) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 10:02:05 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063275.23782.18190573550427764358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" To: Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 7:36 PM Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems > In a message dated 10/28/2000 4:39:25 AM Central Daylight Time, > vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK writes: > > > As far as I can see these words are the Tamil translations of the English > > words Saivism and Vaishnavism. But the Tamil texts themselves were unaware > > of 'ism's. > > I would appreciate if Vijayaraghavan could clarify the above statement. I > would like to know if he is saying: > > 1. That Hindu sectarian divisions did not exist in the Tamil society before > the advent of the British? No, it was not meant > 2. Or if they did, they could not have coined these terms to identify these > sects. I did not say "could not have ", I question is when was it done and popularised? Did the sects see themselves in these terms from when? was it done during the period of Bhakti poetry itself, or did it become in vogue during latter medievel period ? was it popularised during 18th-19th centuries. The parallel I was seeking was the term Renaissance, the cultural florescence in Italy during 14th to 16th centuries. but the term itself became popular only in the late 18th century, long after the events > 3. If his contention is that they could not have coined these terms, what are > the linguistic/sociological/religious reasons? No, it is not my contention. > > 4. What were the Tamil terms that Tamils used to refer to these sects? > > When he says, "As far as I can see...", is it based on any specific textual > evidence? I would appreciate if he could give the source texts for this > statement. Going through the U of Cologne KWIC Concordance of Classical Tamil Texts and searching these two words , for Saivam there was no result and for Vainavam there was only one - in Tiruvila. The concordance searches through these books: Tolkappiyam, Cankam, Patinenkizkanakku, Pazamozi, Kural, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai, Civakacintamani, Tevaram, Nalatiyar, Kamparamayanam, Villiparatam, Tirumantiran, Tiruvilaiyatapuranam, Periyapuranam, Kantapuranam, Tempavani. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Oct 29 05:56:36 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 11:26:36 +0530 Subject: Asokan Stupa discovered in Orissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063269.23782.12608717108217569453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear mr Abbas, > i was unable to locate the web sites you refer to: > neither http://www.asianage.com/asianage/28052000/detutk04.htm > nor http://www.asianageonline.com - seem to exist... The Asian Age website seems to be have already removed this older article. Here are some other news article links on the monumental discovery at Langudi (these ones still work as of today) - - http://www.timesofindia.com/270500/27indi7.htm - http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/may/27ashok.htm also at http://www.buddhismus-muenchen.de/btp/archiv0005/btp000528.txt - http://www.sholay.com/stories/may2000/28052000.htm Some short articles are at (as long as they last) - http://www.the-hindu.com/1997/01/22/THB04.html - http://www.tribuneindia.com/20000527/nation.htm Those interested in these articles should save them to disk as soon as possible as these websites remove older news items. Bye, Samar Abbas From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 29 12:16:43 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 12:16:43 +0000 Subject: Words (was: Re: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems) Message-ID: <161227063279.23782.2078788950445139909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The parallel I was seeking was the term Renaissance, the cultural >florescence in Italy during 14th to 16th centuries. but the term itself >became popular only in the late 18th century, long after the events. It may be of interest that in Tamil "renaissance" was rendered as "maRumalarcci" long ago. Done by RasikamaNi TKC whose role was important in making Bharatanatyam popular. Rukmini Devi had her KuRavanji dance in his bungalow first. TKC also translated "culture" as "paNpATu". Is it Tagore who coined "kalAsAram" to mean "culture"? To get an account of (tech) english vocabulary coinages in Sanskrit, it is better to see it in high Hindi, Telugu, ... duurdarshan = tolaikkATci, aakaashvaani = vaa_noli, pager = akavi, WWW = vaiyavalai, vaiya-viri-valai, internet = iNaiyam, .... Regards, V. Iyer PS: The words, "caivam" and vaiNavam" appear in Tamil texts several centuries before British entered India. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE Sun Oct 29 12:24:12 2000 From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (Juergen Neuss) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 13:24:12 +0100 Subject: Address of Prof. Gruenendahl Message-ID: <161227063281.23782.14160842508063430657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know the current postal address of Prof. R. Gruenendahl? Thanks in advance. Juergen Neuss Freie Universitaet Berlin Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a D-14195 Berlin Germany From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 29 19:22:18 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 14:22:18 -0500 Subject: A lighthearted question about chariots in the battle of kurukshetra Message-ID: <161227063288.23782.2375508874597966213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, 1) Can anyone tell me if the chariots (particularily those of Arjuna and Karna) in the battle of kurukshetra had names? Is there any description of them with more detail than just what banner they had? 2) Is there in the hindu literature (not necessarily from the Mahabharata) any references specifically to a white chariot or a silver chariot? An Ashram I visit names different locations on their grounds after different locations in Indian mythology and they want to name some of their vehicles. And since the vehicles operate out of a part of the Ashram called Kurukshetra I thought appropriate names might be names of chariots used at that battle? One of the vehicles is white and the other silver? In the english stories I've seen from the Hindu mythology I've seen names for weapons, conches, vamanas etc. but I've seen no names of battle-chariots. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Oct 29 14:42:13 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 14:42:13 +0000 Subject: Quality Online Exhibitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063284.23782.16158254888771350453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Frances Pritchett wrote: > On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ven. Tantra wrote: [URLs of nice exhibition sites] Thank you Fran and Ven. Tantra. I've added a page to the INDOLOGY website on exhibitions, and I've used the sites you have listed as the starting poitn. Much gratitude. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Sun Oct 29 16:35:40 2000 From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 17:35:40 +0100 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063286.23782.1322077550579912638.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: > I have > not come across the term in any of the kriyaa or caryaa tantras nor > the commentaries thereto. This suggests that "vajrayaana" was coined > or began to come into use around the time that the STTS was > composed -- perhaps late 7th century. This is not unlikely. In my previous message I was simply pointing out that your observation that 'the term "vajrayaana" does not seem to be that common in Indic text connected to the tantras' is hardly accurate (you did, indeed, preface that remark by writing 'Admittedly I am more familiar with early Buddhist tantras -- those preceeding the anutarrayoga category'). One might just add that also in the tantras sometimes classed as yogottara (though often actually as yogatantras! let me leave aside the complicated question of the category mahaayogatantra) such as the Guhyasamaajatantra, we also find (quite frequently) the term vajrayaana. It is by no means restricted to the yoganiruttaratantras/yoginiitantras. (One more aside; the term you used, anuttarayogatantra, despite being ubiquitous in secondary literature, may well be yet another 'ghost' Sanskrit term, based on a possibly erroneous back-translation from the Tibetan. Again, I'd be interested to know of any real attestations of the word in surviving Sanskrit texts). > > But that the STTS does not have any sexual rituals/imagery is, I > would say, > > incorrect. > I originally wrote "overt sexual rituals/imagery" but deleted "overt". > True, there are elements that may be interpreted in that sense but > they are still very tenuous and not central -- neither Shakyamitra nor > Buddhaguhya make any mention of that kind of interpretation. If it > does not involve great trouble on your part, I would be interested to > know what passages you believe involve sexual rituals -- though I know > of one that you may have in mind. As for sexual imagery, perhaps > that's in the eye of the beholder :) There is certainly some truth in that last remark; and as you know it works both ways. Some might be determined to see sexual imagery virtually everywhere, and some might be determined not to see it. And one could also if one wanted quibble about what (sexual) ritual is. Or for that matter about what sort of line of demarcation there is between yoga and ritual. To avoid, for reasons of time, too many such discussions, let me put it this way---the continuity between the STTS and later Vajrayaana is greater than is commonly acknowledged (perhaps greater than many Shingon scholars, intent on distinguishing their 'pure esotericism' from 'late' Indian or Tibetan tantra, would like to believe). If one reads the STTS (especially if one reads it in Sanskrit!) one encounters a lot of passages that are actually very close to some of the 'sexual' yoginiitantra (and also of course yogottaratantra) material. I don't particularly want to go into detailed discussions just now. One example, though, if you want: the line Guhyasamaajatantra 7.26cd svaretobindubhir buddhaan vajrasattva.m ca puujayet, and the lines from the first pa.tala of the Herukaabhidhaana (Laghu"sa.mvaratantra) antargatena manasaa kaamasiddhi.m tu bhaavayet| svaretobindubhir buddhaan bodhisattvaa.m"s ca puujayet|| (the commentators make much of these lines) are obviously adapted from the STTS's antargatena manasaa kaama"suddhi.m tu bhaavayet| svaretobindubhir buddhaan puujayan siddhim aapnuyaat||. I believe that Yamada in his STTS edition (which I don't have at hand; and my copy of Horiuchi is somewhere in a box at the moment) failed to understand the second half, and writes svare 'to bindubhir... (The Tibetan too, as I recall, mistranslated that line, perhaps as a result of misreading svaritabindubhir; that could be a deliberate 'bowdlerization' but is more probably just an error---my impression was that there are very many obvious mistakes in the Tibetan STTS translation). And of course a verse like the one introduced as the ma.nikuladharmasiddhiguhyatantra could have come from a yoginiitantra text. And there are many more. The early yogottaratantras and also I think at least the earlier yoganiruttaratantras very probably saw themselves as continuing, also regarding the use of 'sexual' elements in the path, a line laid out in the STTS. I think it is very unlikely that the GST, important work though that is, is the first Buddhist tantric scripture to introduce 'sexual ritual/imagery'. Probably one could only maintain that if one assigned to it (as, it is true, one or two modern authors do) a very early date. By the way, for those interested in this topic, one might recommend Michel Strickmann's book Mantras et mandarins: Le bouddhisme tantrique en Chine. (Editions Gallimard 1996), particularly the fifth chapter, called L'amour chez les ?l?phants, in which, according to Strickmann, he has 'recherch? des traces de rites sexuels ? travers une documentation souvent lacunaire et fragment?e. Le corpus de textes le plus f?cond ?mane du culte de Vinaayaka (ou Gane"sa), qui est ? la fois l'Obstacle et le Briseur d'obstacles. Ce dieu ? t?te d'?l?phant a dict? un rituel complexe impr?gn? d'?rotisme, dont on trouve les primi?res traces chinoises ? la fin du VIe si?cle' (p. 55). I am no Sinologist, but found Strickmann's book interesting and on the whole rather impressive. He does not seem to me to be a sensation-monger. > > Mantrayaana is indeed found in Indian texts preserved in Sanskrit. > > But it is much less common a term than vajrayaana. > That's simply because the Buddhists tantric texts that survive > overwhelmingly belong to the anuttara-yoga tantra class. There was > obviously a transition from "mantra-naya" which commentators like > Buddhaguhya use exclusively, to "mantra-yaana" whcih the co-existed > with the apparently later but more popular "vajra-yaana". That the widespread popularity of the term vajrayaana (not necessarily the term itself) is later than that of the term mantrayaana may well be true. But it seems to me that the picture you suggest is probably a little bit _too_ simple... For one thing, as I mentioned before, mantranaya never really went out of fashion in India. All three terms co-existed. For another, the term vajrayaana is as I mentioned above, by no means exclusive to the niruttarayogatantras (or yoginiitantras). Concluding for the time being (my woful state of lack of preparation for the teaching of the coming week seems to demand attention, and this message is so much longer than the golden 2-screens that I risk just rebuke), let me just add that to make this discussion of terms used in self-reference in Indian tantric Buddhism (a discussion which seems to me potentially an interesting one, though this may not be the right time or forum to pursue it) somewhat more comprehensive, and bring it closer to being accurate to the extremely complex history of tantric Buddhism (which I would like to stress that we are only perhaps just beginning to be able to study, despite the pioneering works of such scholars as Matsunaga, Snellgrove, etc.) we ought really not to forget here the word vajranaya (which also occurs in the STTS, and in for instance the GST, and some other pre-niruttarayogatantra texts)... Harunaga Isaacson Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Universit?t Hamburg From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 30 05:15:28 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 21:15:28 -0800 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063292.23782.13627939829074475163.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In recognition of the remarkably learned, perceptive and cordial exchange of S. Hodge and H. Isaacson, might anything be said regarding the validity of the term "vajravaada," its presumed reference to an erotic ritual and its correlation to the linga? Moving into the adjacent area, might anything be cited on the linguistic origin of "linga," its original sense, and the suggestion that linga is the symbol from which the Buddhist "vajra" evolved? Rgrds. VT Appended questions: (1) Is "linga" spelt with overdot-'n'? (2) What is a good way to transliterate the Sanskrit overdot-'n'? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Oct 29 23:00:03 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 00 23:00:03 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063290.23782.5703710295910306332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins wrote: > On an impressionistic basis I had thought Mantrayaana to be earlier > or at least earlier in general usage than Vajrayaana. What is the > situation for, say pre-ninth century material ? This corresponds with my own experience. The problem is of course with dating the material. One can perhaps establish a rough relative chronology and also make some educated guesses on that basis. Obviously, commentorial literature should be easier to date but this is not always the case. My own readings have centred on texts one can reasonably date from the mid-600s down to the early years of the 9th century. One of the best representatives is Buddhaguhya whose period of activity we can date to around the 760s. In several of his commentaries he makes certain explicit statements about the "state of play" regarding tantric material. To be brief these points are worth noting: 1. Most of the texts he comments on which belong according to the later classification system to the kriyaa / caryaa / yoga categories are not entitled tantras per se although he occasionally uses the word. 2. He views mantra practice as a sub-division of Mahaayaana -- he says that Mahaayaana practice can be divided according to the inclinations of the practitioners into paaramitaa-naya and mantra-naya. He then goes on to say that there are *two* levels of mantra-naya -- kriyaa and yoga with the Mahaa-vairocana-abhisa.mbodhi-suutra/tantra occupying a unique anomalous position which he calles "ubhaya" (this alter becomes caryaa). Texts which later were deemed to be anuttara-yoga-tantras are included in his yoga-mantra-naya group. To determine when the term mantra-yaana as opposed to mantra-naya (or even vajra-yaana) can into vogue would require an extensive reading of slightly later commentators like Aanandagarbha and others to see what their usage is. It could aalso be the case that different terminology was used in different "tantric" circles, given that the production of the tantras was not a monolithic process but must have happened in diverse areas. On final point. The use of the term "vajra" has a long history in Buddhism but I wonder what the sudden attraction was to the vajra imagery when the tantras started appearing. There is strong evidence that a major heartland of Buddhist tantras is to be located in northern Orissa. The upstream region known as Sambhola of the River Mahanadi was famed even as far away as Rome as THE place for diamond production in ancient India -- given the local importance of diamonds in that area, could the people responsible for developing tantric imagery has latched on the vajra as diamond for this reason ? Further to Ven Tantra's suggestions about a "vajra-vaada", I wonder whether this is actually feasible given that in Buddhism -- at least in what I have read -- the tantras are not so much a "vaada" but, as Buddhaguhya states, a "naya". A "vaada" in Buddhism seems to me to denote a doctrinal position as in Sarvaastivaada, Pudgala-vaada, Theravaada and so forth rather than a practice system such as we see with the tantras. It is commonly stressed in texts that what is is taught in the tantras does not differ in theory from Mahaayaana but only in praxis -- though of course, we with hindsight could say that some aspects of "vajra-yaana" do indeed differ doctrinally as well. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Oct 30 11:16:23 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 12:16:23 +0100 Subject: chariots Message-ID: <161227063295.23782.2272998051663390360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What comes to mind first is the chariot named Pushpaka, which originally had belonged to Kubera and was taken from him by RAvaNa; when RAma killed the latter, he returned on this chariot to his capital Ayodhya. Ya.V. From: "Harry Spier" To: Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: A lighthearted question about chariots in the battle of kurukshetra In the > english stories I've seen from the Hindu mythology I've seen names for > weapons, conches, vamanas etc. but I've seen no names of battle-chariots. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Oct 30 17:56:36 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 12:56:36 -0500 Subject: JOB POSTING from SARAI Message-ID: <161227063301.23782.16658837378316940892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following job announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact posters directly for any further info. David Magier (SARAI) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ==================== POSITION: Cultural Anthropologist - Tenure Track (Syracuse University) NOTICE OF CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGIST POSITION SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY DEPARTMENT OF ANTHROPOLOGY SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, Department of Anthropology, seeks an applied cultural anthropologist for a tenure-track appointment for the position of an assistant or associate professor, effective Fall 2001. Specializations are open, but applied field experience in Latin America (including the Caribbean) or in South Asia is required. Preference will be given to candidates with a completed PhD, excellence in teaching and publications, and who can mesh with existing strengths of faculty in the Department and in the Maxwell School of Citizenship & Public Affairs. Syracuse University encourages applications from women and men of diverse racial, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds. Please send a cover letter that includes a statement of professional goals, research and teaching interests, and names of three references ALONG WITH A CV to: Professor Hans Buechler, Chair Cultural Anthropology Search Committee Department of Anthropology Syracuse University Syracuse, NY 13244-1090 DEADLINE FOR APPLICATIONS IS DECEMBER 30, 2000, but early submissions are encouraged, and will be reviewed as they are received. Preliminary interviews may be conducted at the AAA meeting in San Francisco THIS NOVEMBER. Syracuse University is an EO/AAE and prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, preference and gender identity/expression. From karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL Mon Oct 30 13:19:04 2000 From: karp at MERCURY.CI.UW.EDU.PL (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 14:19:04 +0100 Subject: Klostermaier's Vedic civilization Message-ID: <161227063475.23782.11502881238509225881.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory and Revising Ancient Indian History >By Klaus Klostermaier >http://www.icj.iskcon.net/6_1klostermaier.htm> Those who could not get through to ISKCON Web page to read K. Klostermaier's paper on Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory (I tried two times, in vain), may find the same article in printed form in ISKCON Communication Journal, Vol. 6, No.1-June 1998, pp. 5-16. The paper is "a slightly revised version of a seminar presentation at the School of African and Oriental Studies (SOAS), University of London on 21, January 1998". Pity, but there is no reflex whatsoever of the discussion that must have taken place after the presentation. According to the Journal, Prof. Klostermaier was going then to take up the posts of Director of Academic Affairs and Senior Fellow at the Oxford Centre for Vaishnava Studies, in Oxford, England. With regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 30 22:32:11 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 14:32:11 -0800 Subject: neo-Orientalism (i) Message-ID: <161227063305.23782.9515576150324148322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > (Perhaps we can coin another word: 'Occidentalism'.) This has already been done. Occidentalism Images of the West; Edited by James G. Carrier, This is an investigation of Western cultural identity. It shows how people's images of themselves and others reflect the power that different groups in a society have to shape these images. The contributors describe these images in Western academic writing, popular Western culture, and societies outside the West, in this counterpart to Edward Said's Orientalism. One lady advocates using "Occidentalism" for profit in capitalist China. Occidentalism A Theory of Counter-Discourse in Post-Mao China Xiaomei Chen, OUP, 1995 After Edward Said's celebrated Orientalism in which he characterized cross-cultural appropriation as being intrinsic to Western imperialism, Xiaomei Chen argues that the appropriation of Western discourse - what she calls `Occidentalism' - can have an artistically and politically liberating effect in contemporary non-Western culture. Using China as a focus for analysis, Chen examines various cultural and political East and West interrelations. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Oct 30 17:56:05 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 18:56:05 +0100 Subject: neo-Orientalism (i) Message-ID: <161227063297.23782.9494920922619170718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sreenivas Paruchuri asked a few of us, incl. me, to write our opinion about Lakshmi Srinivas' post d. 4 Oct. about 'neo-Orientalism'. Since I felt that any reaction from me was bound to escalate matters further, I did not write at the time - I also had no copy of that post any more, so I had to retrieve it from the Indology archives for this response. I suppose that LS will not mind that I mention here that in private he has expressed to me that he has second thoughts about it. (Let us say that he was not feeling well that day.) I did not understand all of it, but I think I should write something about some parts. Since the others in SP's request (except GT) remained silent, and since some of the following has a bearing on other threads too, I will hopefully be excused for the length. I am disappointed that LS referred to Mr Said and his _Orientalism_. My view of that book is quite the same as what has been expressed by the late Wilhelm Halbfass: in his _Tradition and Reflection_ (Albany: SUNY, 1991) he discusses Said briefly on pp. 9-11, and more elegantly than I would have done. In short, he argues that Said does exactly what he accuses his 'Orientalists' of doing: making sweeping generalisations, confounding "highly selective historical observations with broad philosophical generalizations. [...] At the end, "Orientalism" emerges as a historical and conceptual hybridization that is no less a construct and projection than the so-called Orient itself." He then turns to how Said's ideas were picked up by another author in the context of Indian studies and writes: "To what extent are "Orientalism," "Indology," and the other targets of criticism themselves constructs and imposed essences?" - In other words: Said (and people like him) is (are) guilty of doing exactly that which they condemn (as we see happen *all the time* on this list: sweeping accusations, based more on fantasies than on familiarity, against 'Indology' and 'Indologists'). I dislike being too personal here, but I have stated more than once that after a full course of academic study (involving half a dozen Indian languages) I spent most of my adult life in India, where I learnt to speak at least one language with near-native fluency and where all my in-laws are rural brahmins from interior Karnataka. (So I should fulfil everyone's requirements here concerning qualifications.) Then I read here on the Disinformation Highway that I 'contemn Hindus', 'hate India', and what not - for no other reason, so I must conclude, than that I have seen too much and know, through first-hand experience as well as study, and I also say and write, that India and Hinduism are not the crass simplifications that certain persons claim them to be. I am actually doing the _opposite_ of what the Saidian accusation contains. Instead of making sweeping generalisations about Hinduism or India, I oppose them. Are only natives qualified to talk about their native background? The late sociologist K. Ishwaran (a.k.a. Hiremallur Ishwaran; born Dharwad, died Toronto) did his doctoral research on changes in family life in the Netherlands, which was widely appreciated. More than one Dutch social scientist has said to me that only somebody like Ishwaran could do such work, _because_ he was not a Dutchman. A native insider is sometimes so stuck in details that he fails to see the whole. The same happens in India. LS' accusation about my 'discourse', along the lines of what we may call vulgar Saidianism (like vulgar Marxism or vulgar Freudianism) is crude and lame (see two paragraphs up) - and typical. A good deal of his 4 Oct. post is about one W. Collins. Who? It turns out that he was some Brit pop writer in the 19th century. Is he relevant? No. I am not British; I do not live in the 19th century; I have never read the fellow and, after seeing what LS tells us about him, probably never will. For such a character to be relevant, there should be some way of demonstrating that he is so. Simply saying that once upon a time somebody in the wide Western world wrote something, does not prove that he is relevant in the context of some very other person (e.g., me; or was it Vivekananda about whom LS was writing? anyhow, I fail to see the relevance) and his ideas somewhere very else in that wide Western world at a very different time. It is an unjustifiable overgeneralisation and essentialisation of what 'the West' is, and also of what today's Indology is. (Perhaps we can coin another word: 'Occidentalism'.) My favourite quote from older English literature is from something by Kipling that I _have_ read. Everybody quotes "For east is east, and west is west, and never the twain shall meet..."; but then follows (now quoting from memory): "But there is neither east nor west, nor border, nor breed, nor birth, When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth." I wonder why hardly anyone quotes this... 'Neo-Orientalism' must be some new construct along the lines of 'Orientalism', but I fail to see how it could be an improvement over the Saidian anachronism. (continued) -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon Oct 30 17:59:06 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 18:59:06 +0100 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063299.23782.11830195318050281104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (continuation) Another disturbing aspect of what we may call the 'politically correct' vulgar Saidianism on this list is that it tends to advocate a kind of intellectual apartheid: Westerners should not study / think about / make pronouncements about India, because they are, well, Westerners. Instead, we are presumed to sit at the feet of self-proclaimed gurus from India and listen to their words of wisdom (and perhaps give them Rolls-Royces, like to that other guru; while those gurus make their own sweeping generalisations, somewhat like Vivekananda did a hundred years ago). Firstly, I do not think it is basically wrong to be a liberal humanist (it is unclear from LS' post what he thinks about this) and believe that vasudhaiva kutumbakam. Secondly, this vulgarised Saidianism could easily imply that the rest of world should be quiet when, for instance, chairman Mao carries out his 'cultural revolution' or Hitler 'solves the Jewish problem' (because non-Chinese and non-Germans supposedly cannot grasp China's and Germany's necessities, and their criticism is surely part of a conspiracy of imperialists / capitalists, or of internationalists). Nobody denies, e.g., to Indians the right to develop European studies and formulate their own ideas and opinions, to have departments of European studies at their universities, and to do all the things that Westerners do out of an interest for India. (That would actually be a great improvement over the present situation, in which Indians tend to believe that continental Europe is populated by a kind of degenerate Englishmen who talk funnily.) We could then have more people like Ishwaran. But any responsible, modern branch of scholarship is self-critical and grows, i.e., changes. Indology is no exception (and an Indian 'Europology' should be similar). Anyone who today still whines about Indological studies because of something that somebody with, let us say, over-enthusiastic ideas about something said more than a hundred years ago, is laughable. I do not share S. Paruchuri's view that Lakshmi Srinivas' post was "brilliant". On the contrary: I think it was very bad and that those ideas about 'neo-Orientalism' are potentially extremely harmful. All such conspiracy theories (LS writes about globalisation? how do I fit in there? do I benefit? do I want it? or is somebody using me? how?) are basically attempts at cutting off dialogue by questioning the other's earnestness. The fact is (as Dr. Vassilkov once wrote here) that in today's world, India has no better friends in the West than Indologists. Nothing is more painful for an Indologist than to see presumably educated Indians try their best to totally reject their cultural heritage and become imperfect American clones - as is happening right now, without any Indologist whom I know of having anything to do with it. (Trivial side remark: when I am in India, I prefer to dress the way A.B. Vajpayee does, dhautra and all, simply because it is a fine way to dress there. I would like to know how many of my strident cyber-critics at all know how to tie a dhautra - let alone wear one - and wear trousers instead...) What will happen to a new catchword like 'neo-Orientalism' is that it will be picked up as a vague slogan by others, who want to disrupt free, open and informed dialogue. Apparently I angered LS when I wrote > India should be compared not with any single > European country, but with Europe as a whole. I know very well what I am talking about (see my qualifications, above). India is not a monolithic cultural unit (nation), just as the Soviet Union was not a monolithic cultural unit. India is more like the European Union, one big difference of course being that India already has some of the advantages of being a larger administrative unit. There are perfectly objective grounds for my statement, and I am rather surprised that anyone (an Indian?) should take offence when I say that India is culturally greater than any single Western country - because that is what I am saying. If objections about my view are fuzzily expressed ("mode of discourse does not have the theoretical apparatus [...] way out of their areas of specialization, way out of their depth in a subject of considerable complexity and stuck in a state of ideological constipation") then I can only say: look at the facts (all the facts that are relevant in the comparisons), check your definitions, and do not seek refuge in conspiracy theories and misplaced rhetoric. If your view differs, explain why it differs. Explain it with relevant facts and logical reasoning. That would be decent and helpful. Then all of us will listen politely and with interest. RZ -- Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik Universit?t M?nchen Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 01:01:13 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 19:01:13 -0600 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063317.23782.10836420943736259912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >...... Anyone who today still >whines about Indological studies because of something that >somebody with,let us say, over-enthusiastic ideas about >something said more than a hundred years ago, is laughable. >....... No one is complaining about Muller or what people of his era wrote. If you have noticed the complaint is about nonsense like 'vedic tanks' and efforts at cooking up textual evidence to show 'pregnant memory' of a Aryan migration into India. IMHO, concepts such as Orientalism or Neo-orientalism are not needed - it can be attributed to simple petty prejudice and a self serving need of entrenched academics to see that previous papers/books do not become redundant. Regards, Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From dbgray62 at HOME.COM Tue Oct 31 00:25:59 2000 From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 19:25:59 -0500 Subject: Appointment Announcement Message-ID: <161227063315.23782.388658105189230616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ANNOUNCEMENT: NEW VISITING POSITION IN INDIC STUDIES AT HARVARD On behalf of the The Infinity Foundation, a private charitable organization located in Princeton, NJ USA, I'm pleased to announce the selection of Dr. Arvind Sharma of McGill University as the Infinity Foundation Visiting Professor of Indic Studies at Harvard University. As a member of Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Dr. Sharma will teach courses on (1) Common Misconceptions in the Study of Indic Civilization and (2) Contributions of Indic Traditions to World Civilization. For more information about this position and Dr. Sharma please see the following web page: http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITharvardframeset.htm For more information about The Infinity Foundation and its projects, please see the following web sites: http://www.infinityfoundation.com http://www.infinityfoundation.com/indictraditions.htm Thanks, David Gray From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Oct 30 16:49:14 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 22:19:14 +0530 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems In-Reply-To: <006601c040c3$9320bad0$d85abcc3@tigertech> Message-ID: <161227063303.23782.10738018575166792599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:43 AM 10/28/00 +0100, you wrote: >Can you tell me when do the words "Saivam" and "VaiNavam" occur in the >Tamil literature. For example do they occur in the Prabhandam or Nayanmar >works itself? or do they occur much later? > >As far as I can see these words are the Tamil translations of the English >words Saivism and Vaishnavism. But the Tamil texts themselves were unaware >of 'ism's. But still it would be interesting to know when do these two words >in the sense of 'isms's appear in the Tamil texts Dear Mr Vijayaraghavan, Even though you chose not to reply to the questions I raised (regarding customs common to Dravidians) in my earlier mail, I am still responding to satisfy your curiosity. The words 'Saivam' and 'VaiNavam' are Sanskrit rendering of the wholly Tamil concepts. The Tamil rendering could be 'Sivam' and 'ViNNavam'. [The word 'Sivan' does not have any high sounding meaning. It is just the red one. Similarly the word viNNavan means the black one. (I often used to wonder why the red and black keep coming up in Dravidian practice frequently; perhaps some tribal notions) This is how thirumAl is interpreted in the simplest way.] Saivam as a religion is also termed as 'Siva neRi' or 'Saiva neRi'. As a literature term, 'Saiva vAthi' is known to be used in the second century epic MaNimekalai. See the 27th kAthai ('Samayak kaNakkar Tham ThiRam kEtta kAthai') 86th line Saiva vAthi en2Ravan2 than2n2ai vittu iRaivan2 Isan2 en2a nin2Ra Saiva vAthi nEr patuthalum It goes further to describe the Saiva Siddhantham . Philosophical concepts are also discussed by MaNicka Vasakar, whose time was conclusively established as late 3rd century by MaRaimalai AtikaL MaNicka vAsakar entered into philosophical debates with Buddhist Monks from Sri Lanka. This was indirectly referred to by the Sri Lankan Chronicle 'MahA vaMsA'. Authoritative earliest Saiva Agama work is thirumanthiram by thirumoolar (5th century AD) who is predated to thiru nAvukku arasar and thiru njAn2a sambanthar by at least 150 to 200 years. Oft-quoted pA from thirumanthiram where there is an explicit reference to the word 'siva lingkam' is as follows: uLLam perungkoyil Un2utampu Alayam vaLLal pirAn2Arkku vAy kOpura vAsal theLLath theLivArkkuc cIvan2 civalingkam kaLLap pulan ainthum kALA maNi viLakkE! Now coming to vaiNavam, the term VaishNava in the tamilized form 'VaittaNavan' is used by PeriyAzvAr (8th Century AD). Please see Divya Prabhandam 435. 'van2maiyaan2athu un2 kOyilil vAzum vaittaNavan2 en2n2um van2mai kaNtAyE' So one does not have to wait for the English to introduce us to the 'isms'. We seemed to have been the earlier proponents. Incidentally, if you are looking for the tribal practice of Saivam and VaiNavam and not philosophical interpretations, then it goes still earlier to at least 5th -7th century BC. Tholkappiyam speaks of the ThiNai life in various regions in nURpA 951 (akath thiNai iyal), MAyOn2 mEya kAtuRai ulakamum cEyOn2 mEya maivarai ulakamum vEnthan2 mEya thImpun2al ulakamum varuNan2 mEya perumaNal ulakamum mullai kuRinjci marutham neythal en2ac colliya muRaiyaal collavum patumE (sEyOn as a concept is considered to be prior to Sivan and Murugan. and combines both attributes, if the earliest tamil scholars' interpretation is accepted) Further in puRath thiNai iyal (nURpA 1006), there is one more reference to thirumAl: mAyOn2 mEya man2perunj ciRappin2 thAvA vizuppukaz pUvai nilaiyum I am not quoting kataic cangam literatures, since they come much after tholkAppiyam. (Incidentally Sangam literature is not devoid of philosophical discussions. Pleas read the wonderful book in Tamil ' ulakath thORRamum thamizar kOtpAtum' by Prof K.Nedunj ceziyan, 1996, manitham pathippakam, kalainjar nagar, thiruchirappallai 21). SiVan and thirumAl are variously referred to in the sangkam works; Often enough there are more references to thiruMAl. (even balarAman is referred to) in these works. There is also a poem composed during kaLappALar times ( 3rd century AD) quoted by the respected Tamil scholar Mayilai seen2i vEngkatasamy iruLaRu thikiriyootu valampurith thatakkai oruvan2ai vENta iru nilam kotuththa nanthi maalvarai cilampa nanthi where there is an unmistakable reference to mAl. Archeological experts have also found Sivalingkams in kutimallam, kazAththUr, kutumiyAn malai belonging to 2nd century BC. ( Please see C.R. Srinivasan: Kanchipuram through the ages, agam kala pragasam, Delhi 1979, page 232; also see the same author in Story of Buddism, P 243). Satavagana kings (SatakarNi) were known to be Saivaites. Similarly SilappathikAram clearly establishes senguttuvan to be an ardent devotee of SivA. VaithIkam entered into the Tamil Country around 3rd Century BC. It merged somewhat with the local practices of old Saivam and VaiNavam and gained large acceptance only during Pallava times. Even earliest pallava was called Siva Skantha Varman. It is during the Pallava time (4th, 5th and 6th century AD) that organized translations of indigenous tamil works into Sanskrit was done and originals were lost due to foolish practices. (Please read 'Thamizaka varalARum paNpAtum/ by vE. thi. Cellam, maNivAsakar pathippakam, 8/7 cingkar theru, pArimunai, chennai 600 108, published in 1995) Recently Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan showed a reference to a translation work (700 love poems) during HAlA SatakarNi. We don't know the whereabouts of the original love poems. Sad indeed. With regards, IrAma. ki From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 30 22:53:16 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 22:53:16 +0000 Subject: spoken Sanskrit, (fireman, etc.) Message-ID: <161227063307.23782.6056004088443494544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Ashok Aklujkar once posted a nice suggestion for 'world wide web' on >this list. I've now forgotten it but it was nicely alliterative. vizva-vyaapii-vitaana I think Naga Ganesan came up with a nicely alliterative Tamil phrase too, incorporating the word valai. Vidyasankar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Oct 30 23:08:34 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 23:08:34 +0000 Subject: FIREMAND POSTMAN CHERRY, etc. Message-ID: <161227063309.23782.13709735002229302543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I wonder if it is still spoken much, liturgically or academically. As >recently as the early sixties, my father, who was educated by Jesuits in a >Catholic seminary in the U.S., learned all his philosophy in Latin: only >Latin was spoken in the classroom-- lectures, discussion, etc.--, his oral >dissertations and examinations were in Latin. Is the same true in Indian >universities? Not so much in the accredited universities, but elsewhere. Ritually, such directions as "apa upa spRZya" and "prANAn Ayamya" are supplemented with explanations in the local language. There are some people who would understand the ritual actions involved without waiting for a translation. If you go to the more select traditional Veda schools, or attend the not very infrequent vidvat-sadas meetings of pundits, you can find people conversing in Sanskrit. However, the topics discussed in such places/events may not necessitate the coining of new words at all. Vidyasankar From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Oct 31 04:45:49 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 23:45:49 -0500 Subject: neo-Orientalism (i) In-Reply-To: <25053.972928565@www14.gmx.net> Message-ID: <161227063326.23782.16494353508820140527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof.s R. Zydenbos and VV Raman both have mentioned the inside/outside aspects that scholars in our field of study (and indeed of the study of any civilization) have to face. This is not exactly new; anthropologists have discussed this problem for quite some time. But it is important to mention it at a time when so many allege that 'outsiders' cannot study a given civilization without prejudice or empathy. Obviously both aspects, the endo- and the exo- one, are required for succesful investigation and study. -- In the case of India, 'Westerners', E. Asians, etc. have to acquire as much of inside knowledge as they can, and Indians have to step back from their cultural immersion (since childhood!) as far as they can. (The last point frequently is not even admitted!). Having experienced this dilemma during my long stay in Nepal in the Seventies and having talked about such items in class for a long time, I finally put them down on paper, in a talk given at symposium of the Japanese Ministry of Education's (mombusho) project (Dec. 1998 conf. in Kyoto): "Classical Studies and Indology". In: H. Nakatani (ed.) Reconstitution of Classical Studies. Special Issue : A Report on the First Symposium towards a Reconstitution of Classical Studies, No. 3. 3/11/Heisei 11 /[1999]: 16-36 I quote a few pertinent lines: ========================= 6.1. "Outside/inside" views of texts belonging to a particular civilization In recent years it has frequently been stressed that non-native scholars of a particular civilization should try to achieve an inside view of that civilization. This has the obvious advantage that one can better understand all the subtleties of gestures, expression, customs, non-enunciated beliefs, nuances of language, allusions made in literature, etc. To "enter" a foreign culture in this fashion is, certainly, an ideal. How far this is actually possible is quite another question. Having lived and worked in Nepal for more than five years, I am keenly aware of the ideal but also of the problem. ... 6.2. Dilemma of the foreign/indigenous scholar: need to combine outside/inside approaches On the other hand, the inside view has some disadvantages as well. This may not be obvious to a native scholar. .... [in my own case, that of Germany] one day I came across a paper written by a French Indologist, L. Dumont, describing German culture. He stressed the importance of 'Bildung', that is education and continuing self-education, (something, I believe, that is not so very different from the Chinese concept of continuous self-education and improvement). Only then, I understood; but, typically, I did not find out myself, having grown up inside the culture. ... In other words, the outsider's view is valuable, too. An outsider can detect many items that are, as it were, invisible to a native member of a particular civilization. In short, in our study of the Classics, we have to try to combine both the inside and the outside view. ... 6.3. Growing non-Eurocentric respect for other cultures by "outside" researchers. Luckily, all of this coincides with a growing respect, in the West, for non-western civilizations; we are only too well aware of the past century of Eurocentric and now America-centric attitudes. This kind of attitude is, in itself, not surprising: "We" are always in the center, and "We" are surrounded by "Others". Similar attitudes are found with the Greek (Greeks :: barbarians), Indians (?rya of the madhyadesa "the middle country' :: Mleccha barbarians), or Chinese ('the middle country', chu-goku/chu-ka :: barbarians) .... When I think back, my high school texts books still viewed the history of the world in terms of European history: other regions were just exotic and their history basically started with the European contact in the 15th and 16th centuries. .... High School text books would not point out, as my Indian friends in the US complain, the Indian origin of many of our mathematical concepts, from the so-called Arabic numbers to roots and binary numbers used by our computers now. .... ... .... It will have appeared, I hope, that we have to take our own conscious and unconscious views of neighboring and distant cultures into account and that we have to achieve a balance of inside and outside views. In this way we can try to come closer to the ultimately important task of our fields, to an understanding of the world view, the weltanschauung that drives a particular civilization, what "makes it tick." While we have to work on establishing this for the civilization we work on, the present project should make use of the chance now afforded and start an in-depth comparison of these basic world views. ... ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Oct 30 23:57:55 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 00 23:57:55 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063311.23782.10014808970502444332.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harunaga Isaacson wrote: > [re: anuttarayogatantra] despite being ubiquitous in secondary literature, may well be yet another 'ghost' Sanskrit term, based on a possibly erroneous back-translation from the Tibetan. Again, I'd be interested to know of any real attestations of the word in surviving Sanskrit texts. Yes, I suspect you may be right -- and also if of Indic origin, the well-known fourfold division of the tantras would seem to be very late, for like you I have never come across an authentic attestation of the 4 with "anuttarayoga" included. > To avoid, for reasons of time, too many such discussions, let me put it this way---the continuity between the STTS and later Vajrayaana is greater than is commonly acknowledged (perhaps greater than many Shingon scholars, intent on distinguishing their 'pure esotericism' from 'late' Indian or Tibetan tantra, would like to believe). *** Yes, I agree entirely although my understanding of the STTS does not derive from Sini-Japanese Shingon sources although the snippets of commentorial literature deriving from Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra should be valued. > If one reads the STTS (especially if one reads it in Sanskrit!) one encounters a lot of passages that are actually very close to some of the 'sexual' yoginiitantra (and also of course yogottaratantra) material. ****** Do you think this might be with benefit of hindsight ? Also the relationship of the Buddha-sama-yoga-tantra with this apparent contuity should be worth investigating. I know a few Japanese scholars have looked at it but I have not had the opportunity to read what they say. I do note however that this text seems to be the earliest of the so-called "mother tantras" -- it is mentioned by Amoghavajra circa 742CE and also is mentioned by Buddhaguhya at least once. > I don't particularly want to go into detailed discussions just now. I understand -- whenever you have the time or inclination :) > I believe that Yamada in his STTS edition (which I don't have at hand; and my copy of Horiuchi is somewhere in a box at the moment) failed to understand the second half, and writes svare 'to bindubhir... (The Tibetan too, as I recall, mistranslated that line, perhaps as a result of misreading svaritabindubhir; that could be a deliberate 'bowdlerization' but is more probably just an error---my impression was that there are very many obvious mistakes in the Tibetan STTS translation). **** I'll double check the Chinese as well when I get the time but if it corroborates the Tibetan and the propsed Skt reading, where does this leave us ? I suppose if your suggested reading was original, there must have been a bottle-neck in the ms transmission which had this reading from which both Tibetan and Chinese was derived. > I think it is very unlikely that the GST, important work though that is, is the first Buddhist tantric scripture to introduce 'sexual ritual/imagery'. ******* I would interpose the Guhyagarbha and the Maayaajaala between the STTS and the GST. > Probably one could only maintain that if one assigned to it (as, it is true, one or two modern authors do) a very early date. ******* As you are not doubt aware, Amoghavajra (742) records the first datable reference to this text in a format which seems to represent a more primitive version of the text. > By the way, for those interested in this topic, one might recommend Michel Strickmann's book Mantras et mandarins: Le bouddhisme tantrique en Chine. (Editions Gallimard 1996) [snip] I am no Sinologist, but found Strickmann's book interesting and on the whole rather impressive. ******* I found there were some interesting chapters in this book but overall I was quite disappointed with what I had been told was THE definitive work on early tantra in China -- there are many inexplicable lacunae, although given the vastness of the material and Strickmann's untimely demise this is understandable to a degree. > Concluding for the time being (my woful state of lack of preparation for the teaching of the coming week seems to demand attention, ***** Yes, I know the feeling -- good luck ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Oct 31 00:14:44 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 00:14:44 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063313.23782.5716446541631566591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra wrote: > In recognition of the remarkably learned, perceptive > and cordial exchange of S. Hodge and H. Isaacson Wow, the flattery :)) > Moving into the adjacent area, might anything be cited on the > linguistic origin of "linga," its original sense, and > the suggestion that linga is the symbol from which the > Buddhist "vajra" evolved? As we have seen, "vajra" has two connotations: "lightning" and "diamond" and I believe it is used in Buddhism with both senses. When thinking of it as a symbol, was it not first thought to be the weapon of choice of Indra rather like Thor's hammer ? As an important element in its long journey to becoming a specifically tantric symbol, one should also consider the history of Vajrapaa.ni who already appears in sculpted representations in Gandhara style statuary -- where he is sometimes depicted in the Hellenistic form of Herakles. Somewhat later, and thus giving rise to the early tantric three-buddha family scheme, one finds `Shaakyamuni flanked by Vajrapaa.ni paired with Avalokite`svara -- one with a vajra and the other with a lotus. The possible covert sexual symbolism here should be obvious :) > Appended questions: (1) Is "linga" spelt with > overdot-'n'? Yes. (2) What is a good way to transliterate > the Sanskrit overdot-'n'? Many use `n for this purpose but others solutions exist. One publisher said to me that they did not believe in using diacritics in their books because of the trouble and since the uninitiated general reader would not understand them while Sanskritists would know what was intended anyway -- a bit radical and not foolproof ! Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Oct 31 00:58:59 2000 From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM. Krishnan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 06:28:59 +0530 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) In-Reply-To: <31633.972928746@www14.gmx.net> Message-ID: <161227063319.23782.5151657770469761722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 06:59 PM 10/30/00 +0100, Prof. Zydenbos wrote: >Apparently I angered LS when I wrote > > > India should be compared not with any single > > European country, but with Europe as a whole. > >I know very well what I am talking about (see my qualifications, above). >India is not a monolithic cultural unit (nation), just as the Soviet Union >was not a monolithic cultural unit. India is more like the European Union, one >big difference of course being that India already has some of the >advantages of being a larger administrative unit. There are perfectly >objective >grounds for my statement, and I am rather surprised that anyone (an Indian?) >should take offence when I say that India is culturally greater than any >single >Western country - because that is what I am saying. It is precisely this (multinational question in a single country /existence of many nationalities) which many hindutvadis are unable to comprehend. You are absolutely right. India should be compared to Europe but with one administrative federal unit. When India started in 1947, the founding fathers were clear in calling it as Indian Union. It was Indira Gandhi in 1969 who changed it as Republic of India. Confusion soon spread among the elites. There are many Hindutvadis who think that we are un-patriotic when we talk about the multi-national question. It is not surprising that the present OIT theory and the Republic of India concept go together. With regards, irAma.ki From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 31 15:33:23 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 07:33:23 -0800 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh Message-ID: <161227063354.23782.2224068288584880760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Pl. see Prof. G. v. Simson's mail at: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind9906&L=indology&P=R6034 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Oct 31 12:55:15 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 07:55:15 -0500 Subject: T-Online Homepage.htm Message-ID: <161227063344.23782.7520025469994056840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I understand that S. Jamison and J. Brereton are working on a complete translation of the RVS, continuing the work of S. Insler. Best wishes, George Thompson From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Tue Oct 31 08:05:00 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 08:05:00 +0000 Subject: vajra In-Reply-To: <002101c042cf$b789d1a0$e721893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227063396.23782.14428370781495707812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge writes: >As we have seen, "vajra" has two connotations: "lightning" and >"diamond" and I believe it is used in Buddhism with both senses. When >thinking of it as a symbol, was it not first thought to be the weapon >of choice of Indra rather like Thor's hammer ? As the weapon of Indra it is of course very old, but the specifically Buddhist use seems to derive from the Vajiruupama-sutta of the Anguttara-nikaaya. Here the wisdom of stream-entry etc. is compared to lightning (vijju) i.e. it is a momentary seeing. The wisdom of the arahat is compared to the thunderbolt (of Indra) because that shatters anything, just as the wisdom of the arahat shatters all afflictions (kilesa). The idea is taken up from here in two passages of the Abhidhamma-pi.taka. Otherwise the word vajira in this sense is only found in a few verse texts: once each in Th, Dhp and Bv; around half a dozen times in Ap. There are also four occurrences in the paracanonical literature (Pe.t and Nett). I omit places where it is found in reference to Indra or in names. I have some doubt as to whether it was ever used in early literature in the sense of diamond to refer to wisdom. I am not sure off hand as to the situation in Mahaayaana literature. In later Pali literature it is a little more frequent and is sometimes extended to refer to insight knowledge i.e. to lower kinds of wisdom also. > As an important >element in its long journey to becoming a specifically tantric symbol, >one should also consider the history of Vajrapaa.ni who already >appears in sculpted representations in Gandhara style statuary -- >where he is sometimes depicted in the Hellenistic form of Herakles. >Somewhat later, and thus giving rise to the early tantric three-buddha >family scheme, one finds `Shaakyamuni flanked by Vajrapaa.ni paired >with Avalokite`svara -- one with a vajra and the other with a lotus. >The possible covert sexual symbolism here should be obvious :) But this may simply be gender symbolism. The pairing is simply a Mahaayaana development of the older pairing of the two chief disciples, famous for wisdom and samaadhi / psychic capacities respectively. > > Appended questions: (1) Is "linga" spelt with >> overdot-'n'? >Yes. In this particular case it does not much matter because it is not ambiguous i.e. n before g can only be a guttural n; so there is a reasonable case for not using a diacritic in romanization. In other cases (i.e. for other letters) it does matter. >(2) What is a good way to transliterate >> the Sanskrit overdot-'n'? >Many use `n for this purpose but others solutions exist. One >publisher said to me that they did not believe in using diacritics in >their books because of the trouble and since the uninitiated general >reader would not understand them while Sanskritists would know what >was intended anyway -- a bit radical and not foolproof ! An excellent argument ! Since publishers can save money in this way by misspelling Sanskrit, perhaps they have not realized that you can do the same with English. Writing double vowels as single and omitting h after c, s and t, as well as u after q, etc, etc. would save publishers a packet. Those who know English would understand anyway :-) Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Tue Oct 31 13:20:17 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 08:20:17 -0500 Subject: Vajra Message-ID: <161227063346.23782.9811582659986235047.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the second mandala of the Rigveda, in these two verses: adhva\'ryavo\` yaH sha\`taM shamba\'rasya\` puro\' bi\`bhedaashma\'neva puu\`rviiH |\\ yo va\`rcinaH\' sha\`tam indraH\' sa\`hasra\'m a\`paava\'pa\`d bhara\'taa\` soma\'m asmai || \EN{2}{014}{06} \\ ava\' kShipa di\`vo ashmaa\'nam u\`ccaa yena\` shatru\'m mandasaa\`no ni\`juurvaaH\' |\\ to\`kasya\' saa\`tau tana\'yasya\` bhuure\'r a\`smaa\m+ a\`rdhaM kR^i\'Nutaad indra\` gonaa\'m || \EN{2}{030}{05} \\ Indra's vajra seems to be called "ashmaan", which is a stone or possibly a precious stone? (diamond)? Is this perhaps the first mention of the vajra as a stone or diamond, as opposed to the more common descriptions as an iron or metal bladed weapon? Dante From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 08:54:39 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 08:54:39 +0000 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063325.23782.3194921175730840907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >administrative federal unit. When India started in 1947, the founding >fathers were clear in calling it as Indian Union. It was Indira Gandhi in >1969 who changed it as Republic of India. Please get your facts right first. The Indian constitution still defines India as a Union of states. That has not changed. Even as you read this, three new states are being created within the Indian union. India declared herself to be a Republic in the year 1950, when Indira Gandhi's papa was the Prime Minister. Does the date 26 January ring a bell? If you want more detail, the preamble to the Indian constitution, adopted on 26 November 1949, called India a "Sovereign Democratic Republic". In 1977, this was amended to read "Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic." The additional two words were Indira Gandhi's contribution. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Oct 31 04:18:16 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 09:48:16 +0530 Subject: orientalism Message-ID: <161227063328.23782.3854215720149824920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Permit me to quote from my The Vedic People (Hyderabad:Orient Longman,2000) on orientalism: Following Said(1978),we may define orientalism as an ideological and operational paradigm consciously created by the west to define and describe the east in such a manner as to facilitate and justify control by the west.{note 26,page 228) Orientalism,which became confrontationist in the Islamic world,was persuasive and seductive in India.It took the form of Indo-Europeanism.It is thus not surprising that Friedrich Max Mueller's (1823-1900)researches at Oxford were funded by the East India Company.{page 9} Rajesh Kochhar From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 10:00:09 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 10:00:09 +0000 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063330.23782.4405902619936595597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RZ writes : >Firstly, I do not think it is basically wrong to be a liberal humanist (it >is unclear from LS' post what he thinks about this) Wow! You know how to wear some traditional Indian dress, but for all your scholarship and knowledge of India, you still cannot distinguish between masculine and feminine names! >India has no better friends in the West than Indologists. With friends like these ... >Nobody denies, e.g., to Indians the right to develop European studies and >formulate their own ideas and opinions, to have departments of European >studies at their universities, and to do all the things that Westerners do >out of an interest for India. Yeah, but such a thing isn't happening and so is irrelevant here. But how would you like it if, say, your native country (Holland?) was poor and we rich (!!!) and influential Indians who'd colonized you, try to interpret your history for you, which doesn't agree with what you think of yourselves? And to your consternation - all your political leaders and modern intellectuals awed by the Indians meekly accept these theories! And all fringe sessionist elements in your country try to elaborate on these theories and try to split up your country? So would you like it? As far as I can see, the Dravidian race theory has practically no benefits for a united India. It only encourages seperatism and liguistic chauvnism. Sure, Tamil need not take a second place to Sanskrit. Let's consider them as equals and derived from an even earlier tongue. Let's have Tamil recognized as a classical language. So why should the Tamils have any problems with this? I think normal Tamils will be more than satisfied with this. But what about the "Dravidian" scholars? Are they scared of losing their relevance if such a theory is accepted? >when I say that India is culturally greater than any single Western country >- because that is what I am saying. We're not into any supremacy games here. We don't want to be greater than any country or culture. We're what we are and we're pretty content to be so. What we don't like is people trying to tell us what we are, based on their mistaken conceptions of our history. >look at the facts (all the facts that are relevant in the comparisons), >check your definitions, and do not seek refuge in conspiracy theories and >misplaced rhetoric. If your view differs, explain why it differs. Explain >it with relevant facts and logical reasoning. That would be decent and >helpful. Then all of us will listen politely and with interest. I do not know whether you're serious or joking! If you go through the archives, you'll find that it is specifically your posts which elicit such a polemical response from Indian members of the list. If foreigners themselves were anaethma to Indians, then why don't other foreigners face the same problem as you? Many foreigners are able to carry on a civil and meaningful conversation with Indians regarding Indology. I'll give you the benefit of doubt. Maybe you don't realize or intend it, but the fact is - you come across as a Hindu baiter! Best thing for you to do is to heed your own advice, as to how to respond to mails. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA Tue Oct 31 15:01:56 2000 From: selvakum at VALLUVAR.UWATERLOO.CA (C.R. Selvakumar) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 10:01:56 -0500 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063350.23782.9817096193846731939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> '>'> As far as I can see, the Dravidian race theory has practically '>'> no benefits for a united India. It only encourages seperatism and '>'> liguistic chauvnism. Sure, Tamil need not take a second place to '>'> Sanskrit. Let's consider them as equals and derived from an even '>'> earlier tongue. Let's have Tamil recognized as a classical '>'> language. So why should the Tamils have any problems with this? '>'> I think normal Tamils will be more than satisfied with this. But '>'> what about the "Dravidian" scholars? Are they scared of losing '>'> their relevance if such a theory is accepted? '>' '>'As it is clear from your words, you can not even understand that scientific '>'theories are born out of a man's will to gain knowledge about the world he '>'lives in, to understand its laws and its history. The theories (if they are '>'really theories and not wishful thinking) are based on the sum of all facts '>'available to scholars at a particular moment. The theories (if they are '>'really theories) are never created for money or at the order of political '>'bosses, to suit a certain political situation, to "encourage" something, or '>'"satisfy" somebody, or to give somebody "benefits". '>' You apply to the scholarship criteria which would rather fit cheap '>'political journalism. '>' In this posting, as many times before, you insult not only Indology, but '>'scholarship in general. '>' If you do not have any idea of what scholarship is, why don't you '>'leave this scholarly list alone? '>' Dear colleagues, I am sorry if I broke the ban on polemics by this '>'letter. I am ready to be punished for it. I only feel that aggressiveness, '>'arrogance and hatred which fill every word in the postings of Nanda '>'Chandran - the man who does know nothing of the things he speaks about - '>'cannot be tolerated anymore. I echo the same feelings as Y. Vassilkov. Because it would be a sheer waste of time and effort, seeing the *attitude* of the poster Mr. Nanda Chandran, I had not responded. His hate-filled, aryan-centric and caste-supremacy-filled postings are a disgrace to this scholarly list. C.R.Selvakumar '>' Regards, '>' '>' Yaroslav Vassilkov '>' From lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 15:24:00 2000 From: lynkenghose at HOTMAIL.COM (Lynken Ghose) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 10:24:00 -0500 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh Message-ID: <161227063352.23782.3685107156524171806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Listmembers: Does anyone have any idea where I can locate articles/books on the Buddhist groups in the area near Chittagong etc. in present day Bangladesh? I heard that H. Bechert wrote some articles on this but I have not yet been able to locate them. Does anyone have any idea of the journal and/or book in which H. Bechert's or other articles on this subject are located? Thanks, Lynken Ghose Iowa State University _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Schlerath at T-ONLINE.DE Tue Oct 31 09:46:52 2000 From: Schlerath at T-ONLINE.DE (B. Schlerath) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 10:46:52 +0100 Subject: T-Online Homepage.htm Message-ID: <161227063332.23782.9361012063149384637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there somebody (or some team) planning (preparing, working on)a complete translation of the RgvedasamhitA (into English or any other language)? Thanks for information. B. Schlerath From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue Oct 31 15:46:59 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 10:46:59 -0500 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227063356.23782.14496790175369139610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being posted to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI (located at: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/jobs.html). Please contact posters directly for any further information. David Magier (SARAI) ================== POSITION: Visiting Professor of Environmental History of South Asia (Cornell University) The South Asia Program, in conjunction with the Center for the Environment at Cornell University, announces a visiting position in Environmental History of South Asia. The position will enable the visitor to come to Cornell for one semester in each of the next two academic years (2001-2002 and 2002-2003), with the possibility that the position will be extended for one further semester during AY 2003-2004. In each semester the visitor will be expected to teach two courses in environmental history, at least one of which should be focused on South Asia. The level of appointment is open. The visitor will also be expected to participate in the collegial activities of the South Asia Program, one of nine National Resource Centers for South Asian studies supported by Title VI funds, and of the Center for the Environment, which coordinates the efforts of over 250 faculty members at Cornell in research, teaching, and outreach focused on environmental issues. Applications should include a description of the kinds of courses the applicant has taught or has the expertise to teach, a cv, and three letters of recommendation. They should be posted on or before January 15, 2001, and should be addressed to the Chair, Environmental Historian Committee, South Asia Program, 170 Uris Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 11:03:15 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 11:03:15 +0000 Subject: neo-Orientalism (i) Message-ID: <161227063334.23782.11964245619333978376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MW writes : >In the case of India, 'Westerners', E. Asians, etc. have to acquire as >much of inside knowledge as they can, and Indians have to step back from >their cultural immersion (since childhood!) as far as they can. I know a Veda PAdashAla in Mylapore, Madras, which I and some of my friends help financially. They teach the Krishna Yajur Vedam there. There're around 10 students between the age group of 7 to 13. The students study the Veda for six years and then take up Vaideekam. The students are not experts in Sanskrit and have at best a working knowledge of the language. They do not even write in the Devanagari script - they use the Tamil grantham script to write Sanskrit. Yet, these students represent the living tradition of the Vedic way of life. But do the view of these Vaidiks regarding the Vedas and the Vedic way of life tally with the Indologists? If the Indological interpretation of the shruti is revealed to the students they would gape in amazement! The shruti represents a way of life. When a student is initiated into that life, he has a totally unique psychological makeup. He regards the shruti and his guru with reverence. He looks upon the Gods of the shruti as real and worships them with devotion. The injunctions in the texts are Deiva VAkku for him. He may not even understand Sanskrit, but that doesn't mean that that hymns he chants has no meaning for him. The shruti is one whole spiritual/social package for him. But still, down the ages - from the Rishis to the great medieval AchAryas - this is what was intended. This is purpose the shruti was intended to serve - to teach about dharma and moksha to the Hindus. It has a special meaning for them. But for our Indologists who coming from a totally different cultural backgrounds and take up the study of the shruti for a different purpose and thus have a totally different psychological makeup - it is prime specimen for dissection and analysis. Often in the course of such hair-splitting "linguistic" analysis the spirit of the work and the purpose it was intended to serve itself is forgotten and theories like "Aryan panzer invasion" are derived from it. And in the interests of the "truth" we're supposed endorse this "critical" interpretation of the text! So MW, it is not so much that we refuse to be critical (the various schools of Miimaamsaas are itself enough to prove that we are), but that Western scholars obstinately and illogically, refuse to accept the traditional view! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Tue Oct 31 00:29:29 2000 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 11:29:29 +1100 Subject: Mahabharata Conference 2001 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063321.23782.10446959159540335170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Tilak, I would like to attend the conference on the Mahabharata you announced some time ago. If it is not too late, I would like to offer a paper fitting into the second of your categories. I have not yet formulated a full paper but a tentative title would be: The Mahabharata's Simultaneous Affirmation and Critique of the Universal Validity of Dharma. I apologize for responding to you so late. Would please be able to confirm whether my paper is acceptable to you. Yours Sincerely, Dr. Greg Bailey, >Dear list members: Please circulate the following communication among those >interested. >ST > > > International Conference on the Mahabharata > Organized by the Chair in Hindu Studies, Concordia University > > >Dates: 7th, 8th, and 9th June 2001 > >Location: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada > >Themes: 1) Methodological Problems of Teaching the Mahabharata > 2) Character Analysis based on Ethical Issues > 3) Challenge and Response in the Context of philosophical, >Social and >Other Issues > >Please send (1) title of your paper, indicating the category of the theme >under which it should come ( by October 1, 2000) and (2) abstract of about >300 words (by January 1, 2001) to Dr Shrinivas Tilak, Department of >Religion, Concordia University, 1455 de Maisonneuve, West, Montreal, Quebec, >Canada H3G 1M8. Selected abstracts will be included in the brochure being >planned for the Conference. > >For further information contact Shrinivas Tilak, Coordinator, Mahabharata >Conference 2001 at >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Tue Oct 31 00:31:53 2000 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 11:31:53 +1100 Subject: Mahabharata Conference 2001 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063323.23782.3315144839456043909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Tilak, I just sent you a private message. Apologies. It went to the Indology list as a whole. "Herewith a copy: Dear Dr. Tilak, I would like to attend the conference on the Mahabharata you announced some time ago. If it is not too late, I would like to offer a paper fitting into the second of your categories. I have not yet formulated a full paper but a tentative title would be: The Mahabharata's Simultaneous Affirmation and Critique of the Universal Validity of Dharma. I apologize for responding to you so late. Would please be able to confirm whether my paper is acceptable to you. Yours Sincerely, Dr. Greg Baile" Take it is a reflection of my incompatability with computers. Cheers, Greg Bailey >Dear list members: Please circulate the following communication among those >interested. >ST > > > International Conference on the Mahabharata > Organized by the Chair in Hindu Studies, Concordia University > > >Dates: 7th, 8th, and 9th June 2001 > >Location: Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada > >Themes: 1) Methodological Problems of Teaching the Mahabharata > 2) Character Analysis based on Ethical Issues > 3) Challenge and Response in the Context of philosophical, >Social and >Other Issues > >Please send (1) title of your paper, indicating the category of the theme >under which it should come ( by October 1, 2000) and (2) abstract of about >300 words (by January 1, 2001) to Dr Shrinivas Tilak, Department of >Religion, Concordia University, 1455 de Maisonneuve, West, Montreal, Quebec, >Canada H3G 1M8. Selected abstracts will be included in the brochure being >planned for the Conference. > >For further information contact Shrinivas Tilak, Coordinator, Mahabharata >Conference 2001 at >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Tue Oct 31 16:50:00 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 11:50:00 -0500 Subject: Endo and Exo Message-ID: <161227063361.23782.5458342040964620752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Exo and Endo: Some Demarcation Criteria In answer to a letter from an Indologist-friend, I am formulating below some demarcation criteria between Endo and Exo Indologists in the form of some questions and answers. Comments, criticisms, objections, improvements are welcome. Let me state at the outset (a) that this the classification implies no value judgment, (b) that the criteria below are applicable to present-day scholars, and not necessarily to past ones: I mean, many Indologists who wrote and spoke in, say, the first half of the 20th century may not fit into the categorization of Endo- as presented below; (b) that these are broad, and not rigid criteria; in other words, there might be exceptions in either group. Thus, each answer may be preceded by 1. Has Western scholarship contributed anything positive to Indology: Endo: Not really. Indology was practiced by Hindus long before the intrusion of Westerners into India. Exo: Most definitely. Modern Indology would perhaps have been impossible without Western scholarship. 2. What has been the effect of Western scholarship on our understanding of India? Endo: Disastrous. Western (mis)interpretations of Indian history and culture have distorted, devalued, and denigrated Indian culture and Hinduism. Their negative effects continue to this day, and have to be routed out. Exo: We have come to know a good deal about India's past, from Ashoka to the time-frame of Vedic compositions, let alone archaeological finds and translations into worldwide understood languages. Knowledge about Hindu culture and civilization has spread all around the globe, thanks to the Indology initiated by Western scholars. 3. Are the Vedas and the Bhagavad GIta divine in origin, or are they writings/reflections of human beings? Endo: There is more than elements of ordinary human components in these works. They are very probably revelations from a higher source. Exo: They (like the Bible, the Avesta, the Koran, the Illiad, Einstein's papers, etc.) are essentially human in origin, inspired by the local culture and belief-systems of the period. 4. What about the scientific component in the Vedas, the UpaniSads, etc. Endo: Ancient Hindu writings embody some of the most recent findings of quantum physics, cosmology, psychology, consciousness science, genetics, and more. We need to study esoteric Vedic hymns and UpaniSadic aphorisms from a higher perspective to understand the scientific truths implicit in them. Exo: There is no question that the authors of those works were extraordinarily keen minds who (like their counterparts in other cultures) formulated some very interesting views and obtained some profound insights into the nature of the mind, consciousness, and cosmology. But most of those theses have long been improved upon, modified, discarded, or replaced by the vast knowledge and insights that have arisen as a result of post-16th century modern empirical science. The ancients had no notion whatever of galaxies and molecular structures, let alone quarks and quanta, as claimed by some Endo-Indologists. 5. What about language families within India? Endo: All languages within India, Tamil and Munda included, and most languages beyond, are Sanskritic in origin. Exo: The matter is extremely complicated. As of now, there is every reason to believe that the Dravidian languages belong to a totally different language family from the Sanskritic. 7. What has been India's contribution to the world? Endo: Practically everything worthy and noble in human culture may be traced to some element or other in ancient Hindu thought, writing, epics, and civilization. In many instances, these have been stolen and appropriated as their own, by others. Exo: India has been the source of great wisdom, many visions, and much philosophy. A good deal of this has been absorbed (consciously or otherwise) by other cultures and civilizations over the ages. However, this is not a unique phenomenon in world history. Other great ancient civilizations, like the Mesopotamian, the Egyptian, the Greek, the Chinese, and the Arab, have also contributed to the world, as does Western civilization in our own times. Moreover, Indian civilization has also been enriched and enhanced by knowledge and insights from others. 8. What is the motivation of mlecchas in their pursuit of Indology? Endo: Superficially, to learn about the rich and ancient storehouse of Indian culture. But there are quite a few in the crowd who have a hidden agenda: to keep Hindu civilization at a lower level vis-a-vis the European, to be able to denigrate Hindu practices and culture by out-of-context quotes from Hindu works, to persist in 19th century European racism. Exo: Indology is an enormously fascinating field: intellectually rewarding, and profoundly revealing of factors and forces that give rise to and maintain a dynamic and vibrant civilization. It would be a sad day, for the world would be the poorer, if/when people beyond the borders of India lose interest in Indology. 9. Can we bridge the gap between the two? Endo: Rather difficult, because the Western (and Western-indoctrinated Indian) mind-set simply cannot understand the deeper elements of Hindu culture. As a result of this incapacity it keeps confusing issues. Exo: Rather difficult, because Endo-scholars have difficulty distinguishing between cultural affiliation/patriotism and scientific/scholarly analysis. They imagine that anything even remotely negative about Hindu civilization by a non-Hindu arises from arrogant, racist attitudes. However, Endo-writings can be very valuable for Exo-scholars as they provide valuable data for our subject. It is important to realize that though it seems as if both (Endo and Exo) are playing the same game, they are actually following different rules. It is as if two groups are both playing bridge. One is playing contract bridge, and the other auction bridge, say. They can play separately, but not together, much less claim that one is right and the other wrong. The value in my analysis lies in this: As long as each group understands where both come from, one can avoid at least some unpleasantness. V. V. Raman October 31, 2000 From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Tue Oct 31 17:32:41 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 12:32:41 -0500 Subject: Endo and Exo In-Reply-To: <001601c0435f$05891d40$93342cd5@pb> Message-ID: <161227063365.23782.18380834866789730419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J'aime ca. J'espere que la (ma) civilisation sanscritique ne perdra jamais son sense critque! VVRaman From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Oct 31 11:35:06 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 12:35:06 +0100 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063336.23782.6433455936883742788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nanda chandran" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 11:00 AM > As far as I can see, the Dravidian race theory has practically > no benefits for a united India. It only encourages seperatism and > liguistic chauvnism. Sure, Tamil need not take a second place to > Sanskrit. Let's consider them as equals and derived from an even > earlier tongue. Let's have Tamil recognized as a classical > language. So why should the Tamils have any problems with this? > I think normal Tamils will be more than satisfied with this. But > what about the "Dravidian" scholars? Are they scared of losing > their relevance if such a theory is accepted? As it is clear from your words, you can not even understand that scientific theories are born out of a man's will to gain knowledge about the world he lives in, to understand its laws and its history. The theories (if they are really theories and not wishful thinking) are based on the sum of all facts available to scholars at a particular moment. The theories (if they are really theories) are never created for money or at the order of political bosses, to suit a certain political situation, to "encourage" something, or "satisfy" somebody, or to give somebody "benefits". You apply to the scholarship criteria which would rather fit cheap political journalism. In this posting, as many times before, you insult not only Indology, but scholarship in general. If you do not have any idea of what scholarship is, why don't you leave this scholarly list alone? Dear colleagues, I am sorry if I broke the ban on polemics by this letter. I am ready to be punished for it. I only feel that aggressiveness, arrogance and hatred which fill every word in the postings of Nanda Chandran - the man who does know nothing of the things he speaks about - cannot be tolerated anymore. Regards, Yaroslav Vassilkov From iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Oct 31 11:38:33 2000 From: iiasguest10 at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Dr Y. Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 12:38:33 +0100 Subject: T-Online Homepage.htm Message-ID: <161227063338.23782.7743470008785499182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The third (and last) volume of Russian complete translation by Prof. T.Ya.Elizarenkova has been published last year. Ya.V. ----- Original Message ----- From: "B. Schlerath" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:46 AM Subject: T-Online Homepage.htm > Is there somebody (or some team) planning (preparing, working on)a complete > translation of the RgvedasamhitA (into English or any other language)? > Thanks for information. B. Schlerath From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 31 17:45:38 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063368.23782.11106732588712670576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In addition to the reference provided from v Simson re: Bechert & Roth, there is (at least) one book in Swedish on exactly the contemporary situation of Buddhism in Bangladesh. With english summary-- Buddhismen in Bangladesh : en studie av en minoritetsreligion / Ros?n-Hockersmith, Eva, Uppsala : Universitet, Religionshistoriska Institutionen, 1985 Studies in history of religions,; 3; ISBN: 9150604643; I have also just found the reference: Chaudhuri, Sukomal, 1939- Title: Contemporary Buddhism in Bangladesh / Sukomal Chaudhuri ; foreword by Egaku Mayeda. Published: Calcutta, India : Atisha Memorial Pub. Society, 1982. but for example WorldCat has numerous other references! (Please take the time to check such catalogues before asking others for help!!!!) Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Tue Oct 31 12:14:01 2000 From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 13:14:01 +0100 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063340.23782.15741169637239701794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: > Also the > relationship of the Buddha-sama-yoga-tantra with this apparent > contuity should be worth investigating. I know a few Japanese > scholars have looked at it but I have not had the opportunity to read > what they say. I do note however that this text seems to be the > earliest of the so-called "mother tantras" -- it is mentioned by > Amoghavajra circa 742CE and also is mentioned by Buddhaguhya at least > once. The Sarvabuddhasamaayogatantra (Sarvabuddhasamaayoga.daakiniijaala(")sa.mvaratantra) is indeed of great importance in the picture of the historical development of Tantric Buddhism, and of the 'apparent continuity' that we have been discussing. For instance some of the material from the STTS that gets into the Herukaabhidhaana or other "Sa.mvaratantras comes via (one could say) the Sarvabuddhasamaayoga (which is actually itself often quoted with its title given in abbreviated form as "Sa.mvaratantra). > > Michel > Strickmann's book Mantras et mandarins: Le bouddhisme tantrique en > Chine. > (Editions Gallimard 1996) > > I found there were some interesting chapters in this book but overall > I was quite disappointed with what I had been told was THE definitive > work on early tantra in China -- there are many inexplicable lacunae, > although given the vastness of the material and Strickmann's untimely > demise this is understandable to a degree. It is certainly not the definitive, nor an attempt to be a comprehensive, work on early tantra in China, and if you expected that it is no wonder that you were disappointed. I regarded it rather as a collection of interesting essays. As a Sanskritist, what I found disappointing was (predictably enough) the fact that Strickmann was clearly not very familiar with the vast body of material (not all of which is yoganiruttaratantra of course) that survives in Indian languages. Apropos of Ven. Tantra's question about vajravaada; I can understand that Stephen Hodge finds the notion of vaada with regard to tantric Buddhism surprising. And it is correct that it is often stressed that the uniqueness of tantra lies in the sphere of upaaya, not of doctrine. Yet it is worth noting that, though I can't adduce occurrences of the term vajravaada at present, mantravaada (!) does occur at several places in the literature. An example is Cittavi"suddhiprakara.na 122ab: sarvavaada.m parityajya mantravaada.m samaacaret. It doesn't seem to be a uniquely Tantric _doctrine_ that the author has in mind in that case, but the usage of this term does no doubt deserve further attention. Harunaga Isaacson Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets From vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 18:54:42 2000 From: vaidix at HOTMAIL.COM (Bhadraiah Mallampalli) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 13:54:42 -0500 Subject: Endo and Exo Message-ID: <161227063371.23782.10759980500932807137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof V V Raman Suggesting minor changes... 1. Has Western scholarship contributed anything positive to Indology: ENDO: Some western techies and seekers have started doing scintific research lately, with due respect to the subject. 2. What has been the effect of Western scholarship on our understanding of India? >Exo: ...Knowledge about Hindu culture and civilization has spread all > >around the globe, thanks to the Indology initiated by Western > >scholars.... Not sure about this. The spread of Hindu culture has been mostly done by the satsangs. Why don't words like JAOS ring a bell in the minds of common man in India or abroad? 3. Are the Vedas and the Bhagavad GIta divine in origin, or are they writings/reflections of human beings? >Endo: There is more than elements of ordinary human components in >these >works. They are very probably revelations from a higher source. There are ENDO's like me who believe Vedas can be seen again in the next 500 years. Not a big deal. 5. What about language families within India? >Endo: All languages within India, Tamil and Munda included, and most > >languages beyond, are Sanskritic in origin. No, there are also Tamil scholars who think other way. Sanskrit can not solely represent ENDO-Indology. The sanskrit-tamil issue may take several centuries to resolve if there is a hope. Don't you rememeber the clashes between saivaites and vaiSnavites? After a few centuries they are friends again. What we today call "Hinduism" has the knack of assimilating such differences; whether any one likes such assimilation or not. 9. Can we bridge the gap between the two? >Endo: Rather difficult, Rather easy if started from the ENDO side. >Exo: Rather difficult, ... The good works of western Indologists were not marketed properly. This makes things difficult. Even if it can be proved that some western scholars have a bias, Indians WILL accept it. That is the lesson of mahAbhAratA. Didn't pANdavAs respect dhRtarAStrA who was partial to his own sons? (Please don't get any meanings out of this!) It is an accepted fact that in a sabhA, scholars talk harshly with each other. But to have permanent bad feelings against a scholar after you get home is not Hindu culture. Btw, here is a URL about my common sense approach to speculating the age of Vedas.. http://forumhub.com/indhistory/8322.12965.05.59.17.html Regards Bhadraiah Mallampalli _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue Oct 31 12:55:03 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 13:55:03 +0100 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063342.23782.5053884039730358283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was waiting for this. :-) Am 31 Oct 2000, um 10:00 schrieb nanda chandran: > RZ writes : > > >Firstly, I do not think it is basically wrong to be a liberal > >humanist (it is unclear from LS' post what he thinks about this) > > Wow! You know how to wear some traditional Indian dress, but for > all your scholarship and knowledge of India, you still cannot > distinguish between masculine and feminine names! I suggest that you write to Lakshmi Srinivas and ask him whether he is a woman (I must admit that I too would have preferred to see his name written as Lakshmisrinivas, but that is the way it is). So much for your self-proclaimed Indian expertise on India. Further comment seems unnecessary. > Maybe you don't realize or intend it, but the fact is - you come > across as a Hindu baiter! No, at times I only bait the arrogant, malicious and pretentious (Hindu or otherwise) and enjoy seeing them make fools of themselves. For instance: I was waiting for somebody to take Lakshmi Srinivas' name and try to make fun of me. I am sooo happy that it was you . RZ From sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR Tue Oct 31 14:11:15 2000 From: sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Signoret?=) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 15:11:15 +0100 Subject: Vajra Message-ID: <161227063348.23782.16631176520933308621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bonjour, << Indra's vajra seems to be called "ashmaan", which is a stone or possibly a precious stone? (diamond)? >> Quite right ! ashman- nt. is all that together and more. It also means "vajra-" in a number of contexts. It also refers to the upper stone of a mill, smaller but harder than the lower one which remains motionless. Etymologically, there is a possibility IMO of a relation to Engl. "ash", Germ. "Asche" which are "small stones, dust", produced by combustion like in volcanoes. Don't forget that "diamond" is nothing else as "carbon" ! Something else : I have also a lot of questions to put about Tamil but I prefer not to interfere ! Up to now I had always thought that is was a very appealing language with a brilliant literature but of a quite different origin. It comes from the South (Gondwana ? Cf. analogies with Malgache in Madagascar) whereas Skt. comes from the North-West. Andr? Signoret Les Romarins 84460 CHEVAL-BLANC T?l. +33(0)490710910 Portable 0609450202 E-mail : sanskrit at club-internet.fr Site Web : http://asignoret.free.fr/index.html (French-Sanskrit Dictionary, Etymologies and interactive Grammar). ============================================ "De l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace ! " ============================================ From sandeeph at INAME.COM Tue Oct 31 15:59:42 2000 From: sandeeph at INAME.COM (Sandeep H) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 15:59:42 +0000 Subject: To seek knowledge of my culture, immerse yourself in it, the way I do! Message-ID: <161227063358.23782.14362093086394036727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some correspondents here fighting Hindutva ghosts do not seem to realize that Indians' apprehensions and suspicion of western Indology stem in part from their collective experience of the past 100 years; from such havoc as the byproducts of this scholarship such as Aryan "invasion" have wrought on their society, and are continuing to do so. Few would unsuspectingly and cheerfully submit to the claims of the "outsider" of having answers to questions concerning one's roots and identity, no matter how much "scholarship" the "outsider" musters to bolster his claims. After all, it can be argued, not a long while ago theories of aryan "invasion" were state of the Indological art. In this context, an excerpt from Prof Arvind Sharma's bio, an URL to which was posted here, seems quite appropos: The present self-understanding of each major civilization is based, by and large, on the work of sch olars who belonged to these civilizations, but such self-understanding as the Indic civilization pos sesses today is the work, to a much larger degree, not of its own scholars but the result of the wor k of Western scholars. This fact sets Indic civilization apart from other civilizations. If the self-understanding of one civilization is thus mediated through another tradition, then the q uestion naturally arises: to what extent does the work of the scholars belonging to another civiliza tion correctly reflect the assumptions of the civilization they are writing about? For instance, non -Muslims writing about Islam may not accept the Qur'an as the word of God, which is a foundational I slamic belief. To the extent they do not do so, their presentation of the civilization, of which it is a central text, will reflect their own views about Islamic civilization, rather than the civiliza tion's own view about itself. If, therefore, future members of Islamic civilization relied on the wo rk of non-Muslims for their own understanding of Islamic civilization, their self-understanding of t heir own civilization will have deviated from what it would have been had it not been mediated in th is manner. So a unique question now arises in the case of Indic civilization in a way it does not arise to that extent in the context of other civilizations: to what extent has its foundational self-understandin g been affected by the intellectual intervention of another civilization? If such a civilization wan ts to form a concept of its true identity, then there is no escaping this question. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Oct 31 17:33:15 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 17:33:15 +0000 Subject: Job adverts (forwarded) Message-ID: <161227063367.23782.5674438798289284088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:41:39 -0500 From: Christopher Minkowski SOUTH ASIAN NARRATIVES IN FILM, LITERATURE, HISTORIOGRAPHY Cornell University. Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowship for one year beginning July 1, 2001. Candidates should be engaged in research on narratives in South Asian film, literature, and / or historiography. Preference given to candidates who conduct at least part of their research in one of the South Asian languages other than English, especially Bengali, Hindi-Urdu, Nepali, Sinhala, and / or Sanskrit. Limited to citizens of the United States, Canada, or those with permanent U.S. residency cards and with Ph.D. degree after September 1995. Deadline for applications, including recommendations, is January 3, 2001. Full details available at the website: http://www.arts.cornell.edu/sochum/html/melloninstruct.html. Or by contacting: Program Administrator, Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowships, Cornell University, Society for the Humanities, A.D. White House, 27 East Avenue, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853-1101. Telephone: 607-255-9274. Email: humctr-mailbox at cornell.edu. and also VISITING PROFESSOR OF ENVIRONMENTAL HISTORY OF SOUTH ASIA, CORNELL UNIVERSITY. The South Asia Program, in conjunction with the Center for the Environment at Cornell University, announces a visiting position in Environmental History of South Asia. The position will enable the visitor to come to Cornell for one semester in each of the next two academic years (2001-2002 and 2002-2003), with the possibility that the position will be extended for one further semester during AY 2003-2004. In each semester the visitor will be expected to teach two courses in environmental history, at least one of which should be focused on South Asia. The level of appointment is open. The visitor will also be expected to participate in the collegial activities of the South Asia Program, one of nine National Resource Centers for South Asian studies supported by Title VI funds, and of the Center for the Environment, which coordinates the efforts of over 250 faculty members at Cornell in research, teaching, and outreach focused on environmental issues. Applications should include a description of the kinds of courses the applicant has taught or has the expertise to teach, a cv, and three letters of recommendation. They should be posted on or before January 15, 2001, and should be addressed to the Chair, Environmental Historian Committee, South Asia Program, 170 Uris Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853. From leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA Tue Oct 31 23:55:23 2000 From: leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA (Leona Anderson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 17:55:23 -0600 Subject: Tim Moody Message-ID: <161227063376.23782.13450134396409772233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for the address of Tim Moody who completed his PhD at McMaster University on the Veda. I understand he is working somewhere in the US. Any help with locating him would be greatly appreciated. leona anderson leona.anderson at uregina.ca From sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR Tue Oct 31 17:20:31 2000 From: sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Signoret?=) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 18:20:31 +0100 Subject: Endo and Exo Message-ID: <161227063363.23782.13353195619809748482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good Evening, Well done ! I feel rather EXO ! That is to say, naive enough to believe that comparative philology can make peoples closer to one another. Most European citizens speak with "Sanskrit" roots and are unaware of that. "Monsieur Jourdain aussi faisait de la prose sans le savoir !". Almost every time you pronounce , say, French or German, or Russian words, you utter sanscritic phonemes. But alas one thing is missing : le "sens critique" (sorry for the pun !). Andr? Signoret. ----- Original Message ----- From: V.V. Raman To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:50 PM Subject: Endo and Exo > Exo and Endo: Some Demarcation Criteria > In answer to a letter from an Indologist-friend, I am formulating below some > demarcation criteria between Endo and Exo Indologists in the form of some > questions and answers. Comments, criticisms, objections, improvements are > welcome. Let me state at the outset (a) that this the classification implies no > value judgment, > (b) that the criteria below are applicable to present-day scholars, and not > necessarily to past ones: I mean, many Indologists who wrote and spoke in, say, > the first half of the 20th century may not fit into the categorization of Endo- > as presented below; > (b) that these are broad, and not rigid criteria; in other words, there might > be exceptions in either group. Thus, each answer may be preceded by large.> > > 1. Has Western scholarship contributed anything positive to Indology: > Endo: Not really. Indology was practiced by Hindus long before the intrusion of > Westerners into India. > Exo: Most definitely. Modern Indology would perhaps have been impossible > without Western scholarship. > > 2. What has been the effect of Western scholarship on our understanding of > India? > Endo: Disastrous. Western (mis)interpretations of Indian history and culture > have distorted, devalued, and denigrated Indian culture and Hinduism. Their > negative effects continue to this day, and have to be routed out. > Exo: We have come to know a good deal about India's past, from Ashoka to the > time-frame of Vedic compositions, let alone archaeological finds and > translations into worldwide understood languages. Knowledge about Hindu culture > and civilization has spread all around the globe, thanks to the Indology > initiated by Western scholars. > > 3. Are the Vedas and the Bhagavad GIta divine in origin, or are they > writings/reflections of human beings? > Endo: There is more than elements of ordinary human components in these works. > They are very probably revelations from a higher source. > Exo: They (like the Bible, the Avesta, the Koran, the Illiad, Einstein's > papers, etc.) are essentially human in origin, inspired by the local culture > and belief-systems of the period. > > 4. What about the scientific component in the Vedas, the UpaniSads, etc. > Endo: Ancient Hindu writings embody some of the most recent findings of quantum > physics, cosmology, psychology, consciousness science, genetics, and more. We > need to study esoteric Vedic hymns and UpaniSadic aphorisms from a higher > perspective to understand the scientific truths implicit in them. > Exo: There is no question that the authors of those works were extraordinarily > keen minds who (like their counterparts in other cultures) formulated some very > interesting views and obtained some profound insights into the nature of the > mind, consciousness, and cosmology. But most of those theses have long been > improved upon, modified, discarded, or replaced by the vast knowledge and > insights that have arisen as a result of post-16th century modern empirical > science. The ancients had no notion whatever of galaxies and molecular > structures, let alone quarks and quanta, as claimed by some Endo-Indologists. > > 5. What about language families within India? > Endo: All languages within India, Tamil and Munda included, and most languages > beyond, are Sanskritic in origin. > Exo: The matter is extremely complicated. As of now, there is every reason to > believe that the Dravidian languages belong to a totally different language > family from the Sanskritic. > > 7. What has been India's contribution to the world? > Endo: Practically everything worthy and noble in human culture may be traced > to some element or other in ancient Hindu thought, writing, epics, and > civilization. In many instances, these have been stolen and appropriated as > their own, by others. > Exo: India has been the source of great wisdom, many visions, and much > philosophy. A good deal of this has been absorbed (consciously or otherwise) by > other cultures and civilizations over the ages. However, this is not a unique > phenomenon in world history. Other great ancient civilizations, like the > Mesopotamian, the Egyptian, the Greek, the Chinese, and the Arab, have also > contributed to the world, as does Western civilization in our own times. > Moreover, Indian civilization has also been enriched and enhanced by knowledge > and insights from others. > > 8. What is the motivation of mlecchas in their pursuit of Indology? > Endo: Superficially, to learn about the rich and ancient storehouse of Indian > culture. But there are quite a few in the crowd who have a hidden agenda: to > keep Hindu civilization at a lower level vis-a-vis the European, to be able to > denigrate Hindu practices and culture by out-of-context quotes from Hindu > works, to persist in 19th century European racism. > Exo: Indology is an enormously fascinating field: intellectually rewarding, and > profoundly revealing of factors and forces that give rise to and maintain a > dynamic and vibrant civilization. It would be a sad day, for the world would be > the poorer, if/when people beyond the borders of India lose interest in > Indology. > > 9. Can we bridge the gap between the two? > Endo: Rather difficult, because the Western (and Western-indoctrinated Indian) > mind-set simply cannot understand the deeper elements of Hindu culture. As a > result of this incapacity it keeps confusing issues. > Exo: Rather difficult, because Endo-scholars have difficulty distinguishing > between cultural affiliation/patriotism and scientific/scholarly analysis. They > imagine that anything even remotely negative about Hindu civilization by a > non-Hindu arises from arrogant, racist attitudes. However, Endo-writings can be > very valuable for Exo-scholars as they provide valuable data for our subject. > > It is important to realize that though it seems as if both (Endo and Exo) are > playing the same game, they are actually following different rules. It is as if > two groups are both playing bridge. One is playing contract bridge, and the > other auction bridge, say. They can play separately, but not together, much > less claim that one is right and the other wrong. The value in my analysis lies > in this: As long as each group understands where both come from, one can avoid > at least some unpleasantness. > > V. V. Raman > October 31, 2000 > From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 22:15:42 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 22:15:42 +0000 Subject: Calling themselves Hindu in the 14th century Message-ID: <161227063372.23782.16797285899329090282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra writes: >Although indigenous use of the term by Hindus themselves can be >found as early as the fifteenth and sixteenth >centuries, its usage was a derivative of Persian >Muslim influences and did not represent anything more >than a distinction between 'indigenous' or 'native' >and foreign (mleccha)." Atleast from 14th century onwards (see below for Kannada etc., inscriptions of the early Vijayanagar kings), Hindu as used by Muslims or Hindus refers to a religious entity. Spreading from the South, this use of the term Hindu as a religious category in the Northern bhakti tradition seems to have started a century or so later. Consider the parallel where bhakti mass movement starts in the South, and goes North. I quote earlier discussion in Indology: >I also tried to indicate in the two posts that colonial definition of >"Hindu" (which now prevails) reduced the wider meaning of "Hindu" as >a geographic cultural entity (from Persian Ind,Greek India, Islamic >Hind/Hindostan/Mulke-Hindavi) to religious, i.e., the followers of the >Vedas. (Prof. B. Gupt) Prof. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann replied: <<< The notion that "Hindu" as a religious category is a colonial fabrication does not stand up to scrutiny. Let me quote from D. Lorenzen (1995:12) as he discusses North Indian bhakti movements of the 15th and 16th centuries: "...the poems of virtually all nirguNI saints beginning with Kabir and Guru Nanak repeatedly refer to 'Hindus and Turks' and 'Hindus and Muslims[musulaman]' in contexts that clearly show that the authors had in mind religious, and not ethnogeographical, communities." >>> What is not recognized in "Who invented Hinduism?" by Dr. Lorenzen and Richard King's paper in the jl. Numen is the fact that much earlier use of the term Hindu as a religious entity, distinct from the Muslims, occurs in the South first. The Karnataka chiefs use it and afterwards this usage travels North. P. B. Wagoner, "Sultan among Hindu Kings": Dress, Titles, and the Islamicization of Hindu culture at Vijayanagara, JAS, JAS, 55.4 (Nov 1996), pp. 851-880 "In an inscription dated 1352, the second ruler of Vijayanagara's first dynasty (the Sangama, c. 1330-1485)- Bukka I (r.1344-77)-had himself described with the following series of titles:"the prosperous great tributary, punisher of enemy kings, Sultan among Hindu kings, [...] The inscription represents the first documented use by a Vijayanagara ruler of the title hiMdurAya suratrANa "Sultan among/of Hindu Kings". In one form or another, this title continued in use by Bukka's successors for at least another 250 years, through three changes in dynasty, until as late as the opening years of the seventeenth century [8]." On p. 862, Wagoner lists tens of inscriptions from 14-15th centuries employing the word Hindu. The years for inscriptions: 1352, 1354, 1358, 1425, 1507, and so on. It is interesting that in this mileau where the term Hindu as a religious category gets adopted by Hindus themselves, Madava Vidyaranya starts the first Sankaran matha and propagates a a myth that it was founded by the phlosopher Sankara himself. After seeing the production of dvaita sect founder's hagiography, Madava, the minister at the early court of Vijayanagar, probably started writing the Sankara digvijaya text,- also a first. In the Sankara-digvijaya, many shaivaite myths from Tamil hagiographic tradition are recast for the life of Sankaracharya. This remains not so well known. Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 31 23:47:37 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 23:47:37 +0000 Subject: Calling themselves Hindu in the 14th century Message-ID: <161227063374.23782.4247445772690652519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >It is interesting that in this mileau where the term Hindu as >a religious category gets adopted by Hindus themselves, >Madava Vidyaranya starts the first Sankaran matha and propagates a >a myth that it was founded by the phlosopher Sankara himself. >After seeing the production of dvaita sect founder's hagiography, >Madava, the minister at the early court of Vijayanagar, probably >started writing the Sankara digvijaya text,- also a first. It seems to me that participation on this list serves no purpose ultimately. The year 1235 for an inscription naming Vidyasankara sticks out from a century before the earliest evidence from Vijayanagara. I taxed the patience of list members by discussing loads of information on this count, under the Madhava-Vidyaranya-Sringeri thread, a couple of months ago, where I argued for a more nuanced evaluation of 13th and 14th century data. At the end of it all, this kind of gross oversimplification is what remains. Reminds me of one of my own earlier comments on sunaHpucchas and their akuTilIkaraNa. Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.