RV. asi - L. ensis < black (metal)?

[Periannan Chandrasekaran]

It is worth drawing the attention to the family of Dravidian
words with the root *ay/*Ay = minute, fine, small, sharp, and iron.
And to the word irumpu = iron, weapon and *ir = dark;

DEDR #193:
Ta. ayil: = javelin, lance, surgical knife, lancet;
Ma. ayil: = javelin, lance; ayiri = surgical knife, lancet

DEDR #192:
Ta. ayil: iron
Ma. ayir, ayiram = any ore
Ka. aduru = native metal;
Tu. ajirda karba = very hard iron
Note that DEDR #341 lists Ma. ayiram = iron dust

Now we look at the most important entry
DEDR #341:
[note that the Northen languages have only the as- form]
Ta. Acu = minuteness, fineness, acuteness, trifle, anything small or mean;
Ay = to diminish, be reduced;
..acai = to be slender;...
ai = minuteness;
ayir = subtelty, fineness, fine sand, candied sugar;
Ma. asu = thin, slender; ayir, ayiram = iron dust.
Ka. asi, asa = thinness, leanness, slenderness, minuteness...
asidu = that which is thin;
...
Te. asadu = small, slender; asi = slight;
Kur. AcA = thin, attenuated, reduced in strength, slender, slim;
AcnA = to turn out thin, grow thinner;

DEDR #342:
Ta. Acu = hilt;
Ka. Ayuga =handle of a sword

DEDR #191 applies the root *ay to small fish:
Ta. ayirai = loach; ayilai = a kind of fish;
Ma. ayira = a kind of small fish; loach

DEDR #486:
Ta. irumpu =iron, instrument, weapon
Ma. irumpu, irimpu = iron;
Ko. ib = <id>
To. ib = needle
Kod. irimbi = iron;
Te. inumu = <id.>
Kol. inum = iron, sword
Cf. DEDR 2552 Ta. iravu.

DEDR #2552:
Ta. iravu, ira, irA, rA, iru,... = night; iru = black;
iruTci, iruTTu, irumai = darkness;
...[ and so on in about 13 Dravidian languges including
northern ones]


--- "Jan E.M. Houben" <jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL> wrote:
> If RV asi and Latin ensis are understood as words etymologically related to
> a word for black, hence as made from iron, these weapons would have been
> made from iron in Indo-European times . . .
> In the light of the supposed IE connection -- which seems not unlikely,
> though the relation with a word for "black" is in my view just possible --
> the absence of the word in the older RV ma.n.dalas cannot mean that it did
> not exist.
> Moreover, Thieme did not say asi = ensis, but rather asi : asita is like
> hari : harita and like rohi : rohita. A parallel development from "the black
> one" to the iron sword would have taken place in Latin. (The highly
> specified meaning of the product of this development should lead us to
> caution.)
> Moreover, as Thieme said in a footnote in his 1958 article: "Every linguist
> who has tried to draw a coherent picture of Proto-Inodeuropean culture on
> the basis of reconstructable vocabulary has found this 'sword' an unpleasant
> anachronism and has tried to get rid of it by replacing it with a stone . .
> . "
> Finally, overconfident etymologist sometimes forget that *verba valent usu*
> and *yogaad ruudhir baliiyasii*: there is no indication that the users of
> these terms were aware of a connotation "black" with the word asi (see the
> few places in RV) or ensis (acc. to what I find in my Latin dictionary): it
> means a short sword for chopping rather than jabbing, and in the RV esp. a
> sword/knife for cutting up the sacrificial victim. AV(Z) 9.5.4 where asi and
> zyaama are explicitly juxtaposed could be seen as an indication that only at
> that time it became interesting to do so, in other words that asi was
> (formerly) not always/necessarily zyaama.
> Best wishes, Jan Houben
>
> Michael Witzel wrote:
> The RV matter is of course based on the (always weak) argumentum ex nihilo.
> It is complicated /enhanced by  the fact that RV asi 'sword' = Latin ensis
> 'sword'; both per Thieme 1958  from 'black' (metal), see Mayrhofer, Etym
> Dict. 1986- , vol.II 154.
>
> And asi first occurs first in the late RV books 1 and 10.  In short, if
> correct, the late RV may have the first occurence of iron.
>
> Which brings its late stratum (before collection, "samhita", as distinct
> from te much later redaction) down, close to 1000 BCE (instead of 1200 BCE)
> ---  of course always per present archaeology, (and that many change
> again).
>
> Importantly, in the immediate post-RV Samhitas (AV, YV) iron is firmly
> established as 'black metal'. They overlap nicely, in time and geographical
> extent, with the Painted Gray Ware culture of Haryana, UP, Chambal area,
> see MW, Tracing the Vedic dialects. In: C. Caillat (ed.), Dialectes dans
> les litt�ratures indo-aryennes. Paris : 1989, 97-264





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