Siva and Vishnu (was: Kinship systems)

[Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan]

From:         Stephen Hodge <s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Siva and Vishnu (was: Kinship systems)

Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan wrote:
>> a. Jews and other semites don't need to learn racism from aryantexts, it
is
>> inborn.> b. Jews in their sojourn in Egypt learnt it from the Egyptians.

>Alternative a) is possible but Hebrew biblical "racism" by and large
>seems to be based not on colour -- it is more to do with concepts of
>ritual cleanliness etc (obsessively so).

I am willing to accept this explanation. Then the situation is close to
Vedic and later Hindu attitudes. Brahminical attitude is also ritual
oriented and ritual purity oriented from the earliest days. Even a few
decades back, a brahmin with a dark skin (darker than many Afro-americans)
would not like to ritually polluted by the touch of much fairer looking
Muslims of say Persian origin or for that matter the British rulers. As
long the rulers kept to themselves socially (which is what the British did)
and not ritually pollute them, it was immaterial who the ruler was or how
they came to rule them.

Notwithstanding the above agreement, I am not wholly convinced by the
following

>As for alternative b) are you aware that the Torah (and many later
>portions of the Prophets and the Writings) was mostly compiled,
>redacted and edited after the exile -- probably by Ezra and his group
>c.445BCE -- although they drew on earlier material ?  There are a
>number of indications of Persian influence throughout -- these are
>also quite marked in the sectarian literature of Qumran ("Dead Sea
>Scrolls"), hence their talk of the eschatological war between the Sons
>of Light and the Sons of Darkness.

>Best wishes,Stephen Hodge


Both Jews and Nubians were subject (and slave) races in Egypt. Many times,
the oppressed minorities ( or majorities even) internalise the rulers'
disdain and prejudice for each other rather than gang up against the ruler.
One prejudice against certain populations develope, it may continue
irrespective of changes in political fortunes. Hence , by the time of
redactions of 445BCE, the prejudices aquired more than 700 years back
(against Nubians) in Egyptian exile may still be continuing, irrespective
of the changes in political fortunes in that period. Again , this is only
speculation which you are free to disregard

 ===========================================================================
=
>Date:         Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:04:34 -0800
>From:         Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Siva and Vishnu (was: Kinship systems)



>The saivite text KantapurANam (approx 10-11th century CE):

>Qkan3120x3 \BT neRi varum av Alayattil ceRikin2Ra vaiNavarkaL neTitu
nOkkic \et
>[a rough and verbatim translation: "...in that temple, the thronging
Vainavites
>stared..."]

>Other occurrences are from tiruviLaiyATar purANam,
>a very staunch Saivite text that of course describes the 64 leelas of Siva
in
>Madurai:

>#1:  Qtiv23x11x3x1438x3 \BT coRRa tantira vaiNavat toTakkuNTu tiriyum \et
>#2: Qtiv23x7x2x1434x2 \BT varuvatu Aka agku oru pakal vaiNavap paTivap \et
>#3: Qtiv23x14x4x1441x4 \BT pollArAy vaiNavattup pukku ozuku tAy tantai
poRArkaL
>Aki \et
>#4: Qtiv23x31x4x1458x4 \BT van2pu pUNTu ozuku vaiNavam pUNTu poRai irakka
mAn2a
>nIttOr \etNote that occurrences #3 and #4 very clearly denigrate Vainavism:
>#3: pollArAy = "behaving like evil men"
>that is "Entering Vainavism and behaving like evil men and not even able to
>bear their own mothers and fathers..."

>#4 means: "[they], having undertaken to follow Vainavism that bears evil
>[ways], renounced [tha virtues of ] patience, mercy and self-respect".

>Regards
>P. Chandrasekaran.

Thanks P. Chandrasekaran for the 'surgical strike'.
 ==========================================================================
>Date:         Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:04:13 -0500
>From:         "V.V. Raman" <VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Siva and Vishnu (was: Kinship systems)


>Now may I know the thrust of this question? What exactly are we trying to
prove
>or disprove by the fact that these words are to be found in ancient Tamil
>writings?

Because of the context in which it was written originally, I wanted to be
sure of dates of usage of the catch phrases 'saivam and vainavam'. My
admittedly limited searches did not find these words much older Tamil
literature.