RV. asi - L. ensis < black (metal)?

Jan E.M. Houben jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL
Mon Nov 6 16:37:35 UTC 2000


If RV asi and Latin ensis are understood as words etymologically related to
a word for black, hence as made from iron, these weapons would have been
made from iron in Indo-European times . . .
In the light of the supposed IE connection -- which seems not unlikely,
though the relation with a word for "black" is in my view just possible --
the absence of the word in the older RV ma.n.dalas cannot mean that it did
not exist.
Moreover, Thieme did not say asi = ensis, but rather asi : asita is like
hari : harita and like rohi : rohita. A parallel development from "the black
one" to the iron sword would have taken place in Latin. (The highly
specified meaning of the product of this development should lead us to
caution.)
Moreover, as Thieme said in a footnote in his 1958 article: "Every linguist
who has tried to draw a coherent picture of Proto-Inodeuropean culture on
the basis of reconstructable vocabulary has found this 'sword' an unpleasant
anachronism and has tried to get rid of it by replacing it with a stone . .
. "
Finally, overconfident etymologist sometimes forget that *verba valent usu*
and *yogaad ruudhir baliiyasii*: there is no indication that the users of
these terms were aware of a connotation "black" with the word asi (see the
few places in RV) or ensis (acc. to what I find in my Latin dictionary): it
means a short sword for chopping rather than jabbing, and in the RV esp. a
sword/knife for cutting up the sacrificial victim. AV(Z) 9.5.4 where asi and
zyaama are explicitly juxtaposed could be seen as an indication that only at
that time it became interesting to do so, in other words that asi was
(formerly) not always/necessarily zyaama.
Best wishes, Jan Houben

Michael Witzel wrote:
The RV matter is of course based on the (always weak) argumentum ex nihilo.
It is complicated /enhanced by  the fact that RV asi 'sword' = Latin ensis
'sword'; both per Thieme 1958  from 'black' (metal), see Mayrhofer, Etym
Dict. 1986- , vol.II 154.

And asi first occurs first in the late RV books 1 and 10.  In short, if
correct, the late RV may have the first occurence of iron.

Which brings its late stratum (before collection, "samhita", as distinct
from te much later redaction) down, close to 1000 BCE (instead of 1200 BCE)
---  of course always per present archaeology, (and that many change
again).

Importantly, in the immediate post-RV Samhitas (AV, YV) iron is firmly
established as 'black metal'. They overlap nicely, in time and geographical
extent, with the Painted Gray Ware culture of Haryana, UP, Chambal area,
see MW, Tracing the Vedic dialects. In: C. Caillat (ed.), Dialectes dans
les littratures indo-aryennes. Paris : 1989, 97-264





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