From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 1 01:56:31 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 19:56:31 -0600 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063385.23782.10809645797906294970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "C.R. Selvakumar" > >... I echo the same feelings as Y. Vassilkov. Because it would be > a sheer waste of time and effort, seeing the *attitude* of the poster > Mr. Nanda Chandran, I had not responded. His hate-filled, > aryan-centric and caste-supremacy-filled postings are a disgrace > to this scholarly list. > > C.R.Selvakumar > ' IMHO, Nanda Chandran has to be congratulated for exposing the petty politics of small minded chauvinists. It is but natural that they would want to criticise him. Go Nanda go. Regards, Subrahmanya _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Nov 1 01:45:47 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 20:45:47 -0500 Subject: Tim Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063380.23782.18300249078056323733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ms. Anderson: I don't have the information you need. But I am interested to know if you are doing work in Sanskrit or Indology at the University of Regina. I thought the only Canadian universities that have Sanskrit are U of T, UBC, McGill, and McMaster. P On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Leona Anderson wrote: > I am looking for the address of Tim Moody who completed his PhD at McMaster > University on the Veda. I understand he is working somewhere in the US. > Any help with locating him would be greatly appreciated. leona anderson > > leona.anderson at uregina.ca > From phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA Wed Nov 1 01:49:17 2000 From: phillip.ernest at UTORONTO.CA (Phillip Ernest) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 00 20:49:17 -0500 Subject: Jaina diet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063382.23782.5780907309011138659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are the Jainas Vegans, or do they drink milk like the Hindus? And was the eschewing of milk and honey a part of early Buddhist practice? P From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 1 01:40:32 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 01:40:32 +0000 Subject: Calling themselves Hindu in the 14th century Message-ID: <161227063378.23782.12747897746615926799.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some Chola kings had their parents' ashes entombed in a Shiva temple; they paid pAshupata, kALAmukha, mahaavrati ascetics to take care of them. Called "paLLippaTai" temples. I once gave many examples for paLLippatai temples. Later small temples were built for these ascetics in some cases. Are there any paLLippaTai-type temples for ascetics in Karnataka? Does Lorenzen in his Kapalikas and Kalamukhas refer to temples like these? My hunch is this must have been prevalent in Karnataka because a Kannada botanist (B.G.L. Swamy) theorises many Tamilnadu temples like Chidambaram, Palani, etc., were built on graves. Is Madava Vidyaranya in 1340s rebuilding an earlier temple dedicated to Vidyasankara? Thanks, N. Ganesan >>It is interesting that in this mileau where the term Hindu as >>a religious category gets adopted by Hindus themselves, >>Madava Vidyaranya starts the first Sankaran matha and propagates a >>a myth that it was founded by the phlosopher Sankara himself. >>After seeing the production of dvaita sect founder's hagiography, >>Madava, the minister at the early court of Vijayanagar, probably >>started writing the Sankara digvijaya text,- also a first. <<< It seems to me that participation on this list serves no purpose ultimately. The year 1235 for an inscription naming Vidyasankara sticks out from a century before the earliest evidence from Vijayanagara. I taxed the patience of list members by discussing loads of information on this count, under the Madhava-Vidyaranya-Sringeri thread, a couple of months ago, where I argued for a more nuanced evaluation of 13th and 14th century data. >>> _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From giravani at JUNO.COM Wed Nov 1 02:08:58 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 02:08:58 +0000 Subject: Self-discovery Message-ID: <161227063387.23782.15554528606157150763.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bhagawaan Buddha gave impulse to the Dharma Cakra that resulted into Dharma Cakra Pravartanam in the Ancient India.Vartanaa means frequency and Pravartanaa means angular frequency.A wheel rotates.Dr.Mathivanan,Dr.Kak, Dr.Ganesan,Dr.Kochhar,Dr.Rajaram,K.D.Sethna,all had given new angular velocity to the wheel of Self-discovery(Right word by Dr.V.V.Raman).There is going to be some wobble in the beginning.There is no reason for anybody to conform with the "Standard Model of Indology" of one group or with the same of the other group.Is not the purpose of research is to bring out the originality? There could evolve a third model of the pre-history of India different from AIT or OIT in future. Would we like to believe that future of "Self-discovery" is impotent? The need of the present is to respect "Anekaanta-vaada" of Jains and not to polarize or politisize the process.I like the idea of Dr.Zydenbos of Indians starting Europology departments.But are Indians spending enough money on Self-discovery? To the best of my knowledge, no detailed response was produced to the research paper of Prof. Witzel(Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan,June1999,67pages)by equally qualified, equally paid and equally equipped professor of Linguistics from the Indian University.Let us have coffee together but no joint statement. Indoloy needs less rhetoric and more archaeological facts, Rules of Sound changes between Tamil and Sanskrit and many more things.Let us work together! From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 1 04:28:35 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 04:28:35 +0000 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063392.23782.16771301880089549225.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I suggest that you write to Lakshmi Srinivas and ask him whether >he is a woman (I must admit that I too would have preferred to see >his name written as Lakshmisrinivas, but that is the way it is). >So much for your self-proclaimed Indian expertise on India. Further >comment seems unnecessary. >No, at times I only bait the arrogant, malicious and pretentious >(Hindu or otherwise) and enjoy seeing them make fools of >themselves. What can I say? And this kind of pettiness from a "scholar"! The kid next door has more integrity and courtesy. And somebody was talking about humanities being so integral a part of Western education ... And dear Dr.Vassilkov and Selvakumar, the same applies to you too. If you can, please counter my arguments. What's the need for these personal attacks? Attack views, not people. Your shrillness only seems to strengthen the validity of my suspicions. You are, I suppose, professors in Universities and it will quite befit your position to keep in mind Aristotle : "the mark of an educated mind is to entertain a thought without accepting it". No need to be so insecure and freak out when your assumptions are questioned. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE Wed Nov 1 03:52:04 2000 From: peter.schalk at RELHIST.UU.SE (Peter Schalk) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 04:52:04 +0100 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063389.23782.8149095364119177466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 18:45 +0100 31/10/2000, Jonathan Silk wrote: >In addition to the reference provided from v Simson re: Bechert & >Roth, there is (at least) one book in Swedish on exactly the >contemporary situation of Buddhism in Bangladesh. With english >summary-- > > Buddhismen i Bangladesh : en studie av en minoritetsreligion >/ Ros?n-Hockersmith, Eva, Uppsala : Universitet, >Religionshistoriska Institutionen, 1985 Studies in history of >religions,; 3; ISBN: 9150604643; This book is out of stock, but every university library in Sweden has it. Peter Schalk, Uppsala From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 1 17:12:57 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 09:12:57 -0800 Subject: Re. vajra Message-ID: <161227063428.23782.9483354751651612599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: vajra Harunaga Isaacson wrote: << Apropos of Ven. Tantra's question about vajravaada; I can understand that Stephen Hodge finds the notion of vaada with regard to tantric Buddhism surprising. And it is correct that it is often stressed that the uniqueness of tantra lies in the sphere of upaaya, not of doctrine. Yet it is worth noting that, though I can't adduce occurrences of the term vajravaada at present, mantravaada (!) does occur at several places in the literature. An example is Cittavi"suddhiprakara.na 122ab: sarvavaada.m parityajya mantravaada.m samaacaret. It doesn't seem to be a uniquely Tantric _doctrine_ that the author has in mind in that case, but the usage of this term does no doubt deserve further attention.>> 1. RE. VAJRA & LINGA. Benjamin Walker, _Hindu World_(2 vols: II, 485), under "Tantricism," remarks that "In the sexual mysticism of Vajrayaana or Kaamavajrayaana, 'lust-thunderbold-way,' the thunderbold is synonymous with the male organ [li'nga]? 'sexual' interpretation is applied to all precepts and legends? In [some] texts the Vajra, 'thunderbolt,' Buddha is conceived of as everlastingly embracing the body of Taaraa or some other Zakti? [in such a way that] the Tathaagata is the male organ?Sukhaavati or paradise is the yoni"?and the truth discovered by Gautama is that "Buddhahood abides in the female organ." 2. RE. ?VAADA & ZAVAVAADA With regard to the "unusual" use of -vaada, as with the yet-to-be-verified "vajravaada," I again cite Walker (vol. II, under "Necrophilia"). He mentions the term Zavavaada ("corpse-way") in connection to "ritual disciplines" based on necrophilic beliefs common to certain Hindu and Buddhist tantric cults. He may have got his info from Briggs, _Gorakhanath & the Kanphata Yogis_ (1938) or Woodroffe's _Shakti & Shakta_ (1951). I think Stephen Hodge was particularly alluding to ? and correctly so - the use of -vaada in early "primitive" Buddhism in conjunction with the Traditional 18 (20?) Schools, among which Theravaada was one. Further verification of the term "zavavaada" would be useful, and any other terms containing this stem. It would also be important to determine when such terms gained currency. Finally, if not "termed" as such then certainly a "discipline" synonymous to zavavaada has relevance to the Kaapaalika sect, and with Gautama's own preliminary discipline as alleged in the Mahaa Sihanaada Sutta where the Buddha is made to almost boast about having slept on human bones. [See Gombrich, _How Budhism Began: The Conditioned Genesis fo the Early Teachings_ (1996, 78)]. VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >?From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Nov 1 14:22:41 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 09:22:41 -0500 Subject: Turmoil Message-ID: <161227063414.23782.13980538759719889512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> TURMOIL IN INDOLOGY 1. In recent years Indology has been undergoing certain major paradigm shifts. One of them is that voices of representatives from the Hindu tradition are becoming louder and louder. Some of these are reasoned and polite, others passionate and angry. In any case, it is important for serious Indologists (Exo or Endo) to hear these voices, to listen to them carefully in some instances, ignore them in other instances, respond to them when appropriate, but not to shut them off or make them exotic (beyond ear-shot). 2. I understand that this is an elite egroup, concerned primarily with esoteric problems relating to linguistics, word origins, sources and interpretations of ancient texts, scholarly dissertations, Bangladeshi Buddhists, multiple meanings of abstruse passages, distinctions between Saivism and Saivasiddhantam, etc., etc., in a detached, Exo-spirited mode. Perhaps the vast majority of participants here would like it to remain this way. 3. However I would urge the powers that be and the membership to reconsider this ivory-tower exclusivity for the following reasons: (a) Many of the angry participants who have spoken out here are deeply committed to (what they regard as) a fair appraisal, interpretation, understanding of their history and tradition. (b) Most of them are well acquainted (book-wise and emotionally) with aspects of the subjects they (we) are commenting upon. (c) They too need to know/understand that not all Exo-Indologists have sinister motives. It is only when they read some of the postings here that they are likely to be convinced of this. (d) Exo-Indologists need to know why the Endo-voices expressed here are sometimes so angry and passionate. It is not by responding to them in kind or by booting them out that Indology as a discipline will be enriched. If anything, I would invite them back and even ask more of them to join in and speak out so that one may better understand why they feel so negatively about Exo-Indology, why many of them they entertain unfavorable opinions (e) We need to reckon with this new tumultuous phase in Indology. We need to strive to build bridges between the two camps, nor divide them up even more as warring factions. (f) Exo-Indologists have to be more tolerant, more understanding, and more sympathetic to the protesters because their (the protests') ancestors were oppressed, treated as inferiors, and analyzed as if they were specimens in a laboratory. 4. One of the prerogatives of Endo-Indologsts is that they can get pretty upset, angry, even vicious sometimes. It is incumbent upon Exo-Indologists to remain calm and collected in the face of such outbursts, because there are historical reasons for this. I recognize that there must be basic netiquette norms. But, as with Gandhian Satyagraha or the March in Selma, there are momentous contexts when these have to be discounted in the interest of long-range greater good. V. V. Raman November 1, 2000 From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Wed Nov 1 05:26:10 2000 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 10:56:10 +0530 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227063394.23782.8801211747232636237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- > From: David Magier > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT > Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 1:22 AM > > The following position announcement is being posted to your listserv or > mailing list from the JOB ANNOUNCEMENTS section of SARAI. Please > contact the department directly for any further information. > David Magier (SARAI) > http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai > > ========================== > POSITION: Senior Scholar in Sanskrit > > The Department of Middle East and Asian Languages and Cultures at > Columbia University seeks to appoint a senior professor in Sanskrit > Language and Literature. Scholars pursuing all disciplinary approaches > are invited to apply. Applicants should be internationally > acknowledged leaders in the discipline and be able to demonstrate a > distinguished career in research and teaching. They should be > prepared to teach at all levels of undergraduate and graduate > instruction and will be expected to take an active role in the > department and its involvement with other programs. > > Applications will be reviewed starting January 1, 2001, with the > intent of filling the position July 1, 2001 or soon thereafter. Send a > letter of application and curriculum vitae to: > > Chair, Sanskrit Search > Department of MEALAC > 602 Kent Hall, MC 3928 > Columbia University > New York, NY 10027 > > Women and minorities are especially encouraged to apply. Columbia > University is an equal opportunity / affirmative action employer. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Nov 1 11:16:27 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 11:16:27 +0000 Subject: neo-Orientalism (ii) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001031061219.00a9c0b0@202.54.6.1> Message-ID: <161227063398.23782.5406556889988344283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, RM. Krishnan wrote: > At 06:59 PM 10/30/00 +0100, Prof. Zydenbos wrote: > >Apparently I angered LS when I wrote [...] > > I am rather surprised that anyone (an Indian?) > >should take offence when I say that India is culturally greater than any > >single > >Western country - because that is what I am saying. Cultural "greatness" is not a well-defined concept, and is it almost certainly a waste of bandwidth discussing it. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Nov 1 19:36:31 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 11:36:31 -0800 Subject: "Science" in India Message-ID: <161227063439.23782.7020519613703243158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr. Shan, Thanks for the beautiful words of Anna. Margaret Jacob's book is a must read for us Indians. Scientific Culture and the Making of the Industrial West "This book seeks to explain the historical process by which in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries scientific knowledge became an integral part of the culture of Europe and how this in turn led to the Industrial Revolution. Comparative in structure, Jacob explains why England was so much more successful at this transition than its continental counterparts." Sincerely, SM The current mudslingers might like to know an Indian view point on Science in India: [Anna's portrait of present day Tamilworld {as illustrated by Nandivarman}]: "There is no other country that neglects science as this country. Here I am in front of a microphone and when I speak the loudspeaker amplifies my speech in all directions and makes it audible for many to hear. Just try and explain how the loudspeaker works! Find out how the Meddur Dam was constructed! Despite its heaviness explain how the ship floats! Tell them how the aeroplane flies! Or any scientific phenomenon! Tamils will not show surprise. Wonder in these will not become manifest. They may listen for a short time and soon forget these wonders. Confidence in and value of the power of wonder are absent in them. They have no respect for science. Because they have not toiled hard to invent scientific devices. If, my father invented the pencil; my brother invented the atom bomb, the radio by my grandfather, and electricity by my ancestors, then the full worth will be significant. The sleepless nights, ignoring oppositions; unmindful of people poking fun and their condemnations; fearless of the dangers; without any thought to such conditions as confusion, blindness, deformity, Westerners have given so much thought and worked hard to develop devices. That is why westerners praise science; it is worthy of their admiration; their respect for science is profound. But Tamils did not suffer to invent devices. Is there gain without pain? As a result names of inventors of devices such as the aeroplane do not jump out. Names of men behind the train do not stir any memory. Science in this country is an exercise in futility. Like snow in the desert, dangling a pearl necklace in front of the blind, music to the deaf, science commands no respect. A valuable commodity losing its value is not good. Students must work hard to give science its respectability. Students should go out to the people and remove the taint from their minds. Before lecturing on science, help the people to remove any unwanted dross and teach the power of reasoning. It is then people will understand things clearly and value knowledge, give up spiritual ignorance, trust in truth, and abandon fallacy." Excerpts from my interpretation of a speech by Nandivarman on the Late 'aRignar' - Learned C. N. Annadurai- Founder and a former Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu at http://www.eelamnation.com> under KNOWLEDGE. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >?From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Nov 1 11:39:58 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 11:39:58 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN warning] Re: neo-Orientalism (i) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063401.23782.8109304745338321002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, nanda chandran wrote: [...] > the work and the purpose it was intended to serve itself is > forgotten and theories like "Aryan panzer invasion" are derived from > it. Dear Nanda Chandran, the above proposition is downright mischievous. We have all been been round and round on this issue too many times, and I consider you are being unecessarily provocative in exhuming this conversational corpse. Please consider this to be a last warning. If you continue to post materials I consider pointlessly inflammatory I shall cancel your subscription to the list. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From will at DHATU.NET Wed Nov 1 11:51:18 2000 From: will at DHATU.NET (Will Douglas) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 11:51:18 +0000 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh Message-ID: <161227063403.23782.4341316961492123994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, Oct 31, 2000, Lynken Ghose quoth: >Hello Listmembers: > >Does anyone have any idea where I can locate articles/books on the Buddhist >groups in the area near Chittagong etc. in present day Bangladesh? I heard >that H. Bechert wrote some articles on this but I have not yet been able to >locate them. Does anyone have any idea of the journal and/or book in which >H. Bechert's or other articles on this subject are located? You may wish to consult Paola Tinti's Oxford doctoral thesis (1998) _Between two civilisations : history and self representation of Bangladeshi Buddhism_. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Will Douglas Wolfson College, Oxford From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Wed Nov 1 17:05:53 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 12:05:53 -0500 Subject: Turmoil & shantih In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063425.23782.5846860429076523778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jeg forstar. Beklager. Unnskyld. Ha det! VVRaman From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 1 12:12:36 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 12:12:36 +0000 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh Message-ID: <161227063405.23782.7287032014370903060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a thread, "Bengali Buddhists" in this list' archives (June '99). References include Geoffrey Samuel P. Tinti's D.Phil and the Swedish book by Rosen-Hockersmith. Regards, V. Iyer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Nov 1 12:14:46 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 12:14:46 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN: warning] Re: neo-Orientalism (ii) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063407.23782.1191575415400862402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I can see no scholarly merit in your posting whatsoever. You say nothing of interest to the study of classical India, and you treat the conversation as though it were a boxing match, crudely cheering on your favourite. This list is not the place for grunts and cheers. Please consider this a warning. If I consider that you are continuing to disregard the purposes for which this list was created I shall cancel your subscription. On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Subrahmanya S. wrote: > IMHO, Nanda Chandran has to be congratulated for exposing > the petty politics of small minded chauvinists. > It is but natural that they would want to criticise him. > > Go Nanda go. > > Regards, > Subrahmanya > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 1 12:27:43 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 12:27:43 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063409.23782.16239006622362783279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > As an important >element in its long journey to becoming a specifically tantric >symbol, one should also consider the history of Vajrapaa.ni who >already appears in sculpted representations in Gandhara style >statuary -- where he is sometimes depicted in the Hellenistic form >of Herakles. Somewhat later, and thus giving rise to the early >tantric three-buddha family scheme, one finds `Shaakyamuni flanked >by Vajrapaa.ni paired with Avalokite`svara -- one with a vajra and >the other with a lotus. The possible covert sexual symbolism here >should be obvious :) Does this have anything to do with the male Avalokita turning into female Guanyin in the Orient? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Nov 1 12:31:44 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 12:31:44 +0000 Subject: [Admin] Re: neo-Orientalism (ii) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063411.23782.11910387250563452283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear NC, In your posting below you accuse your interlocutors of pettiness, you imply childishness, and an ignorance of humanities scholarship. You accuse them of shrillness, insecurity, and you impugne their professional standing. It is ironic that your accusations and insults are part of your request that your interlocutors should not behave in the manner in which you yourself are behaving. Your posting brings up no new or interesting information about classical India and is therefore quite beyond the scope of this list, quite apart from being a serious breach of common netiquette. This is the second time I have had to write to you today. I shall now cancel your subscription. On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, nanda chandran wrote: [...] > What can I say? And this kind of pettiness from a "scholar"! The kid next > door has more integrity and courtesy. And somebody was talking about > humanities being so integral a part of Western education ... > > And dear Dr.Vassilkov and Selvakumar, the same applies to you too. If you > can, please counter my arguments. What's the need for these personal > attacks? Attack views, not people. Your shrillness only seems to strengthen > the validity of my suspicions. You are, I suppose, professors in > Universities and it will quite befit your position to keep in mind Aristotle > : "the mark of an educated mind is to entertain a thought without accepting > it". No need to be so insecure and freak out when your assumptions are > questioned. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Nov 1 18:34:47 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 13:34:47 -0500 Subject: Endo and Exo Message-ID: <161227063432.23782.5681546398710554608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Classification can be a valuable excercise. ..like the periodic table of elements. taxonomical classification, or phonological classication as is done to some exent in indic alphbets. But what purpose does "endo and exo" serve. > I agree that a neutral external observer can make valuable and essential contributions and is needed to balance other views but then we should not go too far with this sort of (endo-exo) stereo typing Scolars in Humanities revel in this sort of back and forth discussion hemming and hawing over who is in who is not and so forth..... a not so important distinction. > One wishes that they put their mids to better things like coming up with a mathematical frame work for linguistics studies. > Also most indologists are not so neutral to start with. What is needed are more people like edwyn bryant. > regards RB From sandeeph at INAME.COM Wed Nov 1 15:00:34 2000 From: sandeeph at INAME.COM (Sandeep H) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 15:00:34 +0000 Subject: [Admin] Re: neo-Orientalism (ii) Message-ID: <161227063416.23782.12941419858954101633.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear NC, << snip >> > This is the second time I have had to write to you today. I shall now > cancel your subscription. Wujastykji, This is getting to be tragicomic. In all likelihood, the expelled party hasn't had a chance to read your first decree and contemplate on it, so it's quite conceivable that you've sent the offender to boondocks without really offering him an opportunity to reform himself. I'm aware of the fact that my post too is beyond the scope of this august forum because it brings up no new or interesting information about classical India. Perhaps you're already toying with the idea of having me axed too. Before it can get to be pure comedy, I respectfully withdraw myself from my one-day-long association with all that you survey. Yours etc. Sandeep From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Wed Nov 1 15:52:11 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 15:52:11 +0000 Subject: Endo and Exo Message-ID: <161227063417.23782.13201966657811966328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While this classification seems to be clear-cut and neat , I suppose for any person the attitudes are bound to be mixed. For myself , an endo man according to this, I cannot agree or disagree 100% with the attitudes described below Just to give a quick overview of different attitudes 1. Has Western scholarship contributed anything positive to Indology: Endo: Not really. Indology was practiced by Hindus long before the intrusion of Westerners into India. My view: Indology as we know is a Western inspired subject with all it's stregnths and limitations. As a systematic study, it is only 200 years old Exo: Most definitely. Modern Indology would perhaps have been impossible without Western scholarship. My view: Very likely. It has been mostly true so far, but in the future it won't be true 2. What has been the effect of Western scholarship on our understanding ofIndia? Endo: Disastrous. Western (mis)interpretations of Indian history and culture have distorted, devalued, and denigrated Indian culture and Hinduism. Their negative effects continue to this day, and have to be routed out. My view: To this I agree by and large Exo: We have come to know a good deal about India's past, from Ashoka to the time-frame of Vedic compositions, let alone archaeological finds and translations into worldwide understood languages. Knowledge about Hindu culture and civilization has spread all around the globe, thanks to the Indology initiated by Western scholars. My view: Knowledge about India would have come about anyway. Political and economic interests would have taken an interest in India even if they had been no Indology a a subject 3. Are the Vedas and the Bhagavad GIta divine in origin, or are they writings/reflections of human beings? Endo: There is more than elements of ordinary human components in these works. They are very probably revelations from a higher source. Exo: They (like the Bible, the Avesta, the Koran, the Illiad, Einstein's papers, etc.) are essentially human in origin, inspired by the local culture and belief-systems of the period. 4. What about the scientific component in the Vedas, the UpaniSads, etc. Endo: Ancient Hindu writings embody some of the most recent findings of quantum physics, cosmology, psychology, consciousness science, genetics, and more. We need to study esoteric Vedic hymns and UpaniSadic aphorisms from a higher perspective to understand the scientific truths implicit in them. Exo: There is no question that the authors of those works were extraordinarily keen minds who (like their counterparts in other cultures) formulated some very interesting views and obtained some profound insights into the nature of the mind, consciousness, and cosmology. But most of those theses have long been improved upon, modified, discarded, or replaced by the vast knowledge and insights that have arisen as a result of post-16th century modern empirical science. The ancients had no notion whatever of galaxies and molecular structures, let alone quarks and quanta, as claimed by some Endo- Indologists. My view: Here I agree 100% with exo's. 5. What about language families within India? Endo: All languages within India, Tamil and Munda included, and most languages beyond, are Sanskritic in origin. Exo: The matter is extremely complicated. As of now, there is every reason to believe that the Dravidian languages belong to a totally different language family from the Sanskritic. My view: In this also I tend to agree with exo's. For an objective scholar, it is necessary not to take ideological positions or pre-concieved notions, but he must let the facts speak to him directly 7. What has been India's contribution to the world? Endo: Practically everything worthy and noble in human culture may be traced to some element or other in ancient Hindu thought, writing, epics, and civilization. In many instances, these have been stolen and appropriated as their own, by others. Exo: India has been the source of great wisdom, many visions, and much philosophy. A good deal of this has been absorbed (consciously or otherwise) by other cultures and civilizations over the ages. However, this is not a unique phenomenon in world history. Other great ancient civilizations, like the Mesopotamian, the Egyptian, the Greek, the Chinese, and the Arab, have also contributed to the world, as does Western civilization in our own times. Moreover, Indian civilization has also been enriched and enhanced by knowledge and insights from others. My view: Here also I tend to agree with Exo's. 8. What is the motivation of mlecchas in their pursuit of Indology? Endo: Superficially, to learn about the rich and ancient storehouse of Indian culture. But there are quite a few in the crowd who have a hidden agenda: to keep Hindu civilization at a lower level vis-a-vis the European, to be able to denigrate Hindu practices and culture by out-of-context quotes from Hindu works, to persist in 19th century European racism. Exo: Indology is an enormously fascinating field: intellectually rewarding, and profoundly revealing of factors and forces that give rise to and maintain a dynamic and vibrant civilization. It would be a sad day, for the world would be the poorer, if/when people beyond the borders of India lose interest in Indology. My view: In this I am split equally between Endo's and Exo's. Exo's are expressing an ideal but Endo's are reacting to what they see as the track record of Exo-indology 9. Can we bridge the gap between the two? Endo: Rather difficult, because the Western (and Western-indoctrinated Indian) mind-set simply cannot understand the deeper elements of Hindu culture. As a result of this incapacity it keeps confusing issues. Exo: Rather difficult, because Endo-scholars have difficulty distinguishing between cultural affiliation/patriotism and scientific/scholarly analysis. They imagine that anything even remotely negative about Hindu civilization by a non-Hindu arises from arrogant, racist attitudes. However, Endo-writings can be very valuable for Exo-scholars as they provide valuable data for our subject. My view: Ironically, only on this there is an identity of views between exo's and endo's. If this congruence of views is maintained in other areas there can be more fruitful discussion From jbuss at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Wed Nov 1 16:11:15 2000 From: jbuss at IX.URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (=?utf-8?Q?Johanna_Bu=EF=BF=BD?=) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 17:11:15 +0100 Subject: Buddhism in Bangladesh Message-ID: <161227063423.23782.8185791165936881184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Ghose, some references: H. Bechert: "Buddhism and Buddhist Culture in Bangla Desh.", In: The Buddhist, Vol. XLIV, No. 3( Aug-Dec. 1973, pp.1-9. H. Bechert: "Contemporary Buddhism in Bengal and Tripura." In: Educational Miscellany (Tripura), Vol. IV, Nos 3 & 4, 1968, pp. 1-25. H. Bechert, A. Das Gupta, G. Roth: "Hindu Elements in the Religion of the Buddhist Baruas and Chakmas in Bengal." In: Buddhism in Ceylon and Religious Syncretism in Buddhist Countries, ed. H. Bechert G?ttingen 1978, pp. 214-216. H. Bechert: "Zur Geschichte des Theravada-Buddhismus in Ostbengalen." In: Beitr?ge zur Indienforschung, Berlin 1977 (Ver?ffentlichungen des Museums f?r Indische Kunst Berlin, Bd. 14), pp.45-66. Anjana R. Das: "Der Theravada-Buddhismus als Minderheitenreligion in Bangladesh." In: Studien zur Indologie und Buddhismuskunde. Vol.22 (Festschrift Bechert), Bonn 1993, pp.64-76. with best regards Johanna Buss, Heidelberg Lynken Ghose schrieb: > > Hello Listmembers: > > Does anyone have any idea where I can locate articles/books on the Buddhist > groups in the area near Chittagong etc. in present day Bangladesh? I heard > that H. Bechert wrote some articles on this but I have not yet been able to > locate them. Does anyone have any idea of the journal and/or book in which > H. Bechert's or other articles on this subject are located? > > Thanks, > > Lynken Ghose > Iowa State University > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Nov 1 17:15:13 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 17:15:13 +0000 Subject: Calling themselves Hindu in the 14th century Message-ID: <161227063430.23782.1299287880399540835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>>It is interesting that in this mileau where the term Hindu as >>a religious category gets adopted by Hindus themselves, >>Madava Vidyaranya starts the first Sankaran matha and propagates a >>a myth that it was founded by the phlosopher Sankara himself. After seeing >>the production of dvaita sect founder's hagiography, >>Madava, the minister at the early court of Vijayanagar, probably started >>writing the Sankara digvijaya text, also a first. In the >>Sankara-digvijaya, >>many shaivaite myths from Tamil hagiographic tradition are >>recast for the life of Sankaracharya. This remains not so >>well known. VS>It seems to me that participation on this list serves no >purpose ultimately. The year 1235 for an inscription naming >Vidyasankara sticks out from a century before the earliest >evidence from Vijayanagara. I taxed the patience of list >members by discussing loads of information on this count, >under the Madhava-Vidyaranya-Sringeri thread, a couple of >months ago, where I argued for a more nuanced evaluation >of 13th and 14th century data. The standard model of when Sankaran maths were establised by mainstream academic scholars is the 14th century: Sanskritists and authorities on Indian philosophy like P. Hacker and Indologist-Historians like H. Kulke. Don't recollect Prof. Zydenbos or Dr. Palaniappan accepting your view that Sankara himself established his matha at Shringeri. Not knowing any work on dating of the Rigveda conducted at Manitoba, Dr. Klostermaier's date is usually not taken as the mainstream either. There is a good study to be done in the future on the construction of Sankaravijayam written by Madhava Vidyaranya. Many themes come from Tamil literature: http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0005&L=indology&P=R6290 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0003&L=indology&P=R24340 http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0003&L=indology&P=R22621 Taking the view that Hindus or Muslims did not refer to any religious entity, V. Sundaresan wrote a while ago: > If however, as others have > argued, the medieval Indian did not see the invading forces from outside as > "Muslim", in the 19th century sense of the term, one should wonder in what > way Vidyaranya supposedly created a defence against Islam. This is not the case in 14th century Karnataka empire. See my post "Calling themselves Hindu in the 14th century" for references. Tamil inscriptions abound where Hindus contrasted themselves with invading Muslims. See Dr. Palaniappan's http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/WA.EXE?A2=ind0005&L=indology&P=R7418 Once, VS wrote: >For example, take Kulke's view of the legitimation of Vijayanagara. It is >not clear to me why Sankara needs to be invoked for this. The Hoysalas were >Jainas, and later, Vaishnavas. Many other kings in the Karnataka region >were >followers of Kalamukha, Virasaiva and other kinds of Saiva teachers. Why >should Sankara become important only in the 14th century, and not earlier? >To suggest that Vidyaranya invoked Sankara's name primarily for this >purpose >does not seem legitimate at all. That shows the genius of Maadhava Vidyaara.nya, and the cultural politics he established. Vidyaranya and a Shaivaite guru Kriyasakti often appear in the same inscription. Using his royal connections with the newly founded Vijayanagar kingdom, and from viirasaiva and earlier kalamukha/pashupata precedents, he built a temple to the dead (some decades earlier?) Vidyasankara, and founded the first Sankaran matha known so far to us from inscriptions. With kind regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Nov 1 16:15:14 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 17:15:14 +0100 Subject: Turmoil & shantih Message-ID: <161227063419.23782.5412269748170800053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, As a new member on this list I am now reaching for the delete button whenever I see certain names, as I suspect others are doing. It appears to be difficult to V.V. Raman to understand that this is a list with hundreds of participants who would like to discuss well-defined problems meaningfully and dispassionately. I do not like to have my mailbox littered with angry personal attacks, and it is not very polite to post such attacks day after day. Quarrelsome people might "discuss" among themselves, if they like. This has nothing to do with an (artificial) distinction between endo and exo - it is simply a matter of politeness. By being impolite and rude, Hindutva representatives cannot gain anything - least of all understanding and sympathy. To remain "calm and collected in the face of such outbursts" is unacceptable, and to defend rudeness in order to attain "long-range greater good" (whatever that might be) is unacceptable as well. I believe we should listen to ancient Indian wisdom instead of defending petty quarrel: "Na:sti buddhir ayuktasya, na ca:yuktasya bha:vana:, na ca:bha:vayatah s?a:antir, as?a:ntasya kutah sukham?" Regards, Bjarte Kaldhol, Oslo ---------- > From: V.V. Raman > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Turmoil > Date: 1. november 2000 15:22 > > TURMOIL IN INDOLOGY > > 1. In recent years Indology has been undergoing certain major paradigm shifts. > One of them is that voices of representatives from the Hindu tradition are > becoming louder and louder. Some of these are reasoned and polite, others > passionate and angry. In any case, it is important for serious Indologists (Exo > or Endo) to hear these voices, to listen to them carefully in some instances, > ignore them in other instances, respond to them when appropriate, but not to > shut them off or make them exotic (beyond ear-shot). > > 2. I understand that this is an elite egroup, concerned primarily with esoteric > problems relating to linguistics, word origins, sources and interpretations of > ancient texts, scholarly dissertations, Bangladeshi Buddhists, multiple > meanings of abstruse passages, distinctions between Saivism and > Saivasiddhantam, etc., etc., in a detached, Exo-spirited mode. Perhaps the vast > majority of participants here would like it to remain this way. > > 3. However I would urge the powers that be and the membership to reconsider > this ivory-tower exclusivity for the following reasons: > (a) Many of the angry participants who have spoken out here are deeply > committed to (what they regard as) a fair appraisal, interpretation, > understanding of their history and tradition. > (b) Most of them are well acquainted (book-wise and emotionally) with aspects > of the subjects they (we) are commenting upon. > (c) They too need to know/understand that not all Exo-Indologists have > sinister motives. It is only when they read some of the postings here that they > are likely to be convinced of this. > (d) Exo-Indologists need to know why the Endo-voices expressed here are > sometimes so angry and passionate. It is not by responding to them in kind or > by booting them out that Indology as a discipline will be enriched. If > anything, I would invite them back and even ask more of them to join in and > speak out so that one may better understand why they feel so negatively about > Exo-Indology, why many of them they entertain unfavorable opinions > (e) We need to reckon with this new tumultuous phase in Indology. We need to > strive to build bridges between the two camps, nor divide them up even more as > warring factions. > (f) Exo-Indologists have to be more tolerant, more understanding, and more > sympathetic to the protesters because their (the protests') ancestors were > oppressed, treated as inferiors, and analyzed as if they were specimens in a > laboratory. > > 4. One of the prerogatives of Endo-Indologsts is that they can get pretty > upset, angry, even vicious sometimes. It is incumbent upon Exo-Indologists to > remain calm and collected in the face of such outbursts, because there are > historical reasons for this. I recognize that there must be basic netiquette > norms. But, as with Gandhian Satyagraha or the March in Selma, there are > momentous contexts when these have to be discounted in the interest of > long-range greater good. > > V. V. Raman > November 1, 2000 From sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR Wed Nov 1 16:20:24 2000 From: sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Signoret?=) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 17:20:24 +0100 Subject: About Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227063421.23782.17160463349829694904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, I knew not much about Tamil, Telugu (Telinga), Malayalam, Kannada, Konda, Nahali, etc. until now but the passionate exchanges prompted me to improve my knowledge about Dravidian languages. When assimilated, digested, I will place a few paragraphs about the subject on my site (in French, of course, I am not so daring (a Skt. root !). As far as I can see, Tamil (we say also Tamoul in France, Gott weiss warum) is the vector of a very impressive literature the documents of which are available since + 600. I have a few Tamil texts on my desk and discover that it is quite different from Sanskrit (if we neglect borrowings), as different as Basque from French (In fact Basque is nearer to Japanese !). ETTOUTTOGEI for "Huit recueils - ashta-sam'hitaa", PEROUNKADEI for "Grande Histoire - Brihat-kathaa" Beside the paraphrasing of Sanskrit texts (we know a number of them through Tamil translations), there are pages which are among the greatest master-pieces of religious lyrism in the world (par exemple, for example : the TIROUVAAShAGAM "Paroles divines" by Maanikka VaaShagar, the Father of the didactic form called "Saiva-siddhaanta" in Sanskrit (unfortunately, it is difficult to include this entry in my French-Sanskrit Dictionary unless I turn it into an endless encyclopaedia !). Anyhow, many thanks to all those who prompted me to open books about Dravidian languages and Tamil in particular. I did learn a lot about them but I still ignore how to say "Fireman", "Cherry" and a number of other words in Sanskrit !!! Can somebody help me ? This morning, my dear Indology brought me "angular frequence" which added a page to the 748 of the Dictionary. This alone justifies the presence of INDOLOGY on the Web. Adding words to words... the dream of a lexicograph ! Thank you very much and don't hesitate to correct me if I am wrong ! Andr? Signoret Les Romarins 84460 CHEVAL-BLANC T?l. +33(0)490710910 Portable 0609450202 E-mail : sanskrit at club-internet.fr Site Web : http://asignoret.free.fr/index.html From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Nov 1 18:52:58 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 18:52:58 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063434.23782.5915182843488437463.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S.Cousins wrote: > > As the weapon of Indra it is of course very old, but the specifically > Buddhist use seems to derive from the Vajiruupama-sutta of the > Anguttara-nikaaya. Here the wisdom of stream-entry etc. is compared > to lightning (vijju) i.e. it is a momentary seeing. This is interesting -- as you know, there is also a "vajropama-samaadhi". In Mahaayaana exegesis, the element that seems to be emphasized here (as far as I can tell) is the solidity symbolized by the diamond aspect of vajra. Given that a diamond was also thought to be indivisible / unbreakable, it is also used as a simile for j~naana or bodhi itself. That is not to say that the lightning aspect was unknown in Mahaayaana but there does seem to be a trend in the other direction as time went by. > The wisdom of the arahat is compared to the thunderbolt (of Indra) because that > shatters anything, just as the wisdom of the arahat shatters all > afflictions (kilesa). Further to my above comment, the stress in later Mahaayaana is on the nirvikalpa aspect of j~naana as hence the solidity / admantine aspect seems foremost. > I have some doubt as to whether it was ever used in early literature > in the sense of diamond to refer to wisdom. I am not sure off hand as > to the situation in Mahaayaana literature. See the previous. > But this may simply be gender symbolism. The pairing is simply a > Mahaayaana development of the older pairing of the two chief > disciples, famous for wisdom and samaadhi / psychic capacities > respectively. But is not Avalokite`svara always male in Indian Buddhism ? But I agree with you regarding the pairing you allude to. > An excellent argument ! Since publishers can save money in this way > by misspelling Sanskrit, perhaps they have not realized that you can > do the same with English. I thought this is what has happened already with US English :)) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Nov 1 19:00:33 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 19:00:33 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063436.23782.16399894976465485269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer writes: > Does this have anything to do with the male Avalokita > turning into female Guanyin in the Orient? There are sevaral aspects to this matter. In contrast to Tibet, Taaraa never achieved great popularity in her own right in China so I think Avalokite`svara sometimes became a surrogate version. Also Chinese does not readily distinguish male and female genders in words so, for example, when later Mahaayaana/Tantric Buddhism reached China, the female beings among the pletora of deities were often treated as male -- at least that seems to be the case from iconographical drawings. Also a lot of the depictions tend towards a kind of androgynous style that could either be make of female and only the garb helps distinguish the sex. As for Guan-yin, conventional scholarly wisdom maintains that "she" was derived by a conflation of an old southern Chinese sea goddess with an already feminized Avalokite`svara. Bestw ishes, Stephen Hodge From bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO Wed Nov 1 19:03:59 2000 From: bjartekal at AH.TELIA.NO (Bjarte Kaldhol) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 00 20:03:59 +0100 Subject: Turmoil & shantih Message-ID: <161227063438.23782.14238723988918897913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Not bad. Apology accepted. Thugs rje che! Bjarte Kaldhol ---------- > From: V.V. Raman > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Turmoil & shantih > Date: 1. november 2000 18:05 > > Jeg forstar. Beklager. Unnskyld. > Ha det! > > VVRaman From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Thu Nov 2 01:26:00 2000 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 02:26:00 +0100 Subject: Endo and Exo (to science) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063441.23782.2402200755532239624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The distinction made by V.V.Raman about exo and endo are nice and certainly highlights some strong tendencies. I think it should be kept in mind. Nevertheless, the problem is even more complecated, in which I guess he would agree. Instead, or perhaps better, in addition to exo and indo with referance to a geography, we should talk about exo and indo with reference to the "academic and scientific world". You are not neccesarily an endo to this though your are born in the West, and you might very well belong to this "community" though your are a native Indian, African or belong to another non-Western Culture. In a globalized world, this make sence. A colleague of mine who has been teaching Christianity for almost 30 years, still experience pius christians having problems with accepting the results of the modern bible science, i.e. age and the constitution of different sources and so on. In the same way some hindus do not like to hear that the Veda are not eternal or 10.000 years old as a gentleman of a Bhramin tried to convince me. The same problem will be the case for scriptures and (pius) adherents of other religions or cultures. It is a world phenomenon that some people (still) do not agree with the attitudes and methods of science, be it human or naturwissenchaft. Likewise, it is a fact that many are tempted to just pick up the results which are in accordance with their own *a priori* views, and when that is not the case, make a lot of efforts to comdemn the rest of the results/concenses made by sholarship. A lot of this has in my opinion been the case on this Indology list. Let this list be, as I guess was intended, for indologists all around the world who are indo, or strive to be it with reference to "the academic and scientific world". Jon. From Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 2 05:11:04 2000 From: Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ravi Chaudhary) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 05:11:04 +0000 Subject: clarity /new project Message-ID: <161227063448.23782.11925841913560176918.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RE: Opaqueness and Dr Witzel/Dr Farmer project. Dear Dr Wujastyk Thank you for using the guillotine, which I truly welcome. I was wondering how long it would be before you acted, but you have a difficult function - when do you call a halt ? I accept your warning in the spirit it is intended. I agree, my reference was cryptic It should not have been opaque. The project reference was to the Dr Farmer?s postings on the e groups ? Indic traditions list including his posting # 1093 of Oct 14 2000. There has been discussion on this on that list (acrimonious at times, and I have objected to that type behavior there and on the Indian Civilizations list.) Referring to his collaboration with Dr Witzel and others, the scholar writes ? the next decade may well trigger a deep revolution in our understanding of the evolution of ? the higher? human traditions in general. These are not Indian issues but human issues, very exciting indeed? I have supported this project, and voiced my support on that list. I make no comment as to why the list member would not bring this project to this list?s attention. Expecting that the scholars would focus on this project,and not continue to flog dead horses, I was taken aback with the renewed battle in the media, and hence my cryptic comment , inconsiderable disappointment at the turn in events. I am not the first list person to wonder as to what is going on. Other list members have wondered too. Re you?re warning; For the past few years,( and that was my first post) I have with interest followed your list, and watched you try and do a difficult job in moderating it. I do not wish to make it more difficult. Equally I too get distressed at the acrimonious tones, and the members leaving the list. The discussion is less rich than it was. To me this list was and is an opportunity to see what dedicated academics were thinking and writing on. For me, this is not and never was a general interest list, but one reserved for academic scholarly discussion( for the rest us, it was a list where one could 'lurk", and watch with pleasure the high level of intellectual debate and wonder at the dedication and knoeledge the scholars brought to the field. It was not a matter of what position a scholar took. If my comment helped end a fruitless thread, it will not have been wasted. I hope this list comes back to its level, so that we can all enjoy it and learn from it. If I made your function more difficult with my cryptic comment, I apologize and I hope you accept. My views on the need for civilized discussions are clear and on the other two lists. Members are welcome to read them and make up their own minds. A longish post. I apologize for that too.( on a lighter note - I wish my shorter post had sufficed) For me the subject is closed. Regards Ravi Chaudhary. From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Thu Nov 2 11:42:10 2000 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 06:42:10 -0500 Subject: "Fireman", "Cherry" in Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227063457.23782.3477787256472880864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 11/1/00 11:22:25 AM, sanskrit at CLUB-INTERNET.FR writes: << how to say "Fireman", "Cherry" and a number of other words in Sanskrit !!! Can somebody help me ? >> Raghu Vira's Consolidated Great English-Indian Dictionary of Technical Terms (Nagpur, 1950) is a very useful source. Raghu Vira, a good Sanskritist, did his best to find Sanskrit words in the extant literature and to coin new words when he couldn't find old ones. Thomas Burke From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 2 06:57:19 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 06:57:19 +0000 Subject: Calling themselves Hindu in the 14th century Message-ID: <161227063450.23782.13994137066828919167.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "N. Ganesan" wrote: >Is Madava Vidyaranya in 1340s rebuilding an earlier temple >dedicated to Vidyasankara? Don't know. Check with the Archaeological Survey of India, which currently oversees the temple maintenance and owns its old records. >The standard model of when Sankaran maths were establised >by mainstream academic scholars is the 14th century: Sanskritists >and authorities on Indian philosophy like P. Hacker and >Indologist-Historians like H. Kulke. Please. There is no "standard model" whatsoever. Read Kulke and Rothermund's 3rd edition of their book on Indian history, where the discussion comes with a number of qualifications. A pretty poor model any current "standard" would be, if it doesn't give any role to good ethnographic studies of the monastic structure and the monasteries. With all due respect to the late Prof. Hacker, his was not the last word on the history of Indian philosophy. If he were alive, I don't think Hacker would have objected to the idea that his reconstruction can be questioned or modified. I'm curious about one other thing. In recent times, you, along with the august company of the lord of Madurai and the lord of the seven hills (you know which two[?] people I refer to) have frequently questioned the "standard model" of Sankara's date, that has been constructed by mainstream academic scholars such as Hajime Nakamura and Paul Hacker. How do you decide that one "standard model" is open to revision, but that another is etched forever in stone? In both cases, we differ methodologically. You want precise dates. I prefer accuracy. In my view, it is fundamentally flawed to expect precise data for every event in pre-15th century India, or to make precise conclusions based on the currently available data. Maybe it is just the scientist in me, but I think that in most cases, it makes far more sense to think of a range of dates that will be accurate. >Don't recollect >Prof. Zydenbos or Dr. Palaniappan accepting your view >that Sankara himself established his matha at Shringeri. Fine, that makes the score 2 to 1, although my impression was that RZ was going to rethink the issue, taking my comments into account. And you have a rather incomplete picture of my view of the subject. All I will strongly state, as an independent researcher, is that the matha at Sringeri must have come into being before Vidyaranya's time. Do not forget that there was a well attested person called Bharati Tirtha there, slightly before Vidyaranya. It is a very weak argument that concludes that Vidyaranya was the man who established the Sringeri matha. However, all I say as one who comes from within the tradition is that otherwise variant traditions unanimously attribute the founding of the matha to Sankara himself. If you think about it, there is no inherent contradiction between these two hats that I wear. It may sound like trizanku's heaven, or hiraNyakazipu's hell, but it is sometimes possible to be "endo" and "exo" simultaneously (or perhaps neither). >>To suggest that Vidyaranya invoked Sankara's name primarily for this >>purpose >>does not seem legitimate at all. > >That shows the genius of Maadhava Vidyaara.nya, and the cultural I have no quarrel with your estimation that Vidyaranya must have been a genius. >Using his royal connections with the newly founded >Vijayanagar kingdom, and from viirasaiva and earlier kalamukha/pashupata >precedents, he built a temple to the dead (some decades earlier?) >Vidyasankara, You generalize too much about a particular issue, without taking necessary textual and cultural evidence into account. It was a *standard* practice, at least from the times of the dharmazAstras, to bury the bodies of Brahmana ascetics. There were also the Buddhists who erected stupas and caityas. If I am not mistaken, the Digambara Jains also bury ascetics. When any important ascetic passed away, it would have been a natural progression for his disciples to put up a shrine over the burial spot. In general, most of these are the kind of small, dilapidated structures you see from all over India. A few became big temples for one reason or the other. You can see this practice with vaishNava ascetics too, not just with the zaivas. People still point out the spot where rAmAnuja is supposed to have been buried. jnAnezvara's burial spot is a big pilgrimage site in Maharashtra. Note that he was pre-Vidyaranya, and the creator of a highly syncretic tradition, incorporating tAntrika, theistic zaiva, vaishNava and advaita vedAntic elements. Not to downplay the importance of the kAlAmukha and pAzupata orders, but if you are looking for pre-14th century precedents, there are plenty, from very old times, and from a wide variety of Indian traditions. Best wishes, Vidyasankar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Nov 2 12:44:39 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 07:44:39 -0500 Subject: ENDO-EXO Message-ID: <161227063462.23782.16383686965138279984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. One of the participants compassionately (condescendingly?) stated I had "difficulty in understanding" what was going on here. So I decided not to pursue the endo-exo idea any further with this group. My initial posting, however, was not because I have difficulty understanding the goals of this group, but because I understood it well, I respect it, I am impressed by it, and I applaud it. I also believe that exchanges like this contribute immensely not only to a deeper understanding, but also to a wider propagation of technical matters in Indology. 2. However, I felt it was missing an important element/dimension, now almost unavoidable, of the whole field of Indology. I will admit I had not read all the previous unpleasant exchanges which led to the final rupture, but more of it and in more vehement formats, are yet to come in other arenas. 3. Though I have no desire to change the rules and focus of this group since the Exo-Endo notion has been raised again (by Jon), let me clarify it further. 4. I have explored this idea in other contexts as well (as Jon suggests), especially in debates on Science and Religion. It could be extended to discussions on Islam, Christianity, the predicament of Amerindians, or even to any national history. The crucial point here is simply this: 5. In contexts where culture, religion, self-respect, emotions are involved, the cold, detached, objective, factual, scientific explanations, interpretations, conclusions are bound to be partial, one-sided, incomplete, unsatisfactory, even provocative and anger-producing sometimes. That is why, as we all know, the history of Napoleonic wars authored by an Englishman is likely to be different from one by a Frenchman, etc. 6. Science is most successful and much easier to handle because by and large its subject matter does not impinge on our egos and self-respect. It deals with facts and explanations, rather than practices and interpretations. Even here, the Copernican treatise and Darwinian Evolution generated controversy, because they had (have) an impact on how we see ourselves. 7. I feel that non-Hindu Indologists (a) must contend with the fact that there exist these two modes of Indology; (b) must not ignore the fact that in recent years the Endo-mode has been gaining more and more strength (and not just within India); and (c) must not underestimate the power and sweep of the Endo-mode and its practitioners. If Indologists think that interpreting Sanskrit terms and concepts is not any different from deciphering the Rosetta Stone, I will have to say they are losing touch with reality. Their indifference to current developments would not be unlike what naughty Nero was doing when something very hot was going on in Rome. 8. All I was trying to say was that the best way to deal with unreasonable, over-excited, irate comments is to ignore them, and learn from them if possible, but it may not be very wise to shut them up, especially when they come from the very tradition we are trying to study and understand. With best regards, V. V. Raman November 2, 2000 From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Nov 2 13:46:25 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 08:46:25 -0500 Subject: Book Notice: New trends in Avestan studies Message-ID: <161227063465.23782.12297218636436017434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For List members who may be interested in new trends in Avestan studies: A new book has recently appeared which gathers together a number of recent essays by Jean Kellens, a pre-eminent student of Avestan. In collaboration with Eric Pirart, Kellens published a path-breaking edition of Old Avestan Texts: *Les textes vieil-avestiques*, in three volumes, Wiesbaden, 1988-1991. The new book is: *Essays on Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism*, translated and edited by Prods Oktor Skjaervo, published by Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 2000. In this volume several recent articles, otherwise somewhat inaccessible to List members because published originally in French or in journals not easily available in India, are translated for the first time into English. This volume is important because it tracks the recent development of Kellens's views on many important issues in Avestan studies. I call the List's attention to just a few brief points which relate to Vedic studies: Perhaps the following remark will make list members appreciate how intimate Old Avestan texts and Old Vedic texts are: "It is hardly an exaggeration to say the Old Avesta is the eleventh maNDala of the Rigveda, only written in a slightly different dialect" [p. 46]. The Old Avestan text, the Yasna Haptanhaiti, composed in a rhythmic, strophic prose which is as old as the Avestan Gathas attributed to Zarathustra and probably as old even as the Rgveda itself, is characterized by Kellens as "analogous to the BrAhmaNas," and its syntactic techniques and style "force[s] one to postulate the existence of Indo-Iranian prose" that is analagous to Indo-Iranian poetry [p.40]. In other words, neither Vedic poetry nor Vedic prose is an innovation: each is a genre inherited from the common Indo-Iranian period. As for Avestan haoma [= Vedic soma], Kellens speculates that there must have been either substitution or addition to the divine drink at an early date [pp. 72f.]. Kellens detects traces of shamanistic practices in Old Avestan texts [p.74]. There are traces of such in the RV as well. This is a very complicated problem that I myself am pursuing at the moment. Well, there there are many other observations, such as about the preference in Avestan for day-time rituals, as opposed to Vedic rituals which were performed at night [cf.atirAtra]. On the Vedic devas vs. the Avestan daEuuas. On the term manthra in Avestan vs. the term mantra in Vedic. etc etc etc. Other important points which are raised in this collection which Kellens initiated in his earler work are, briefly: The question of the historicity of the figure of Zarathustra himself: is he a prophet like the prophets of the Bible, or is he a quasi-mythological figure like the many RSis of the Rgveda? Is Zarathustra's notorious dualism a product of the imagination of later scholars, under the influence of later dualisms? Is Zarathustra really the author of the Gathas which are attributed to him, or is this attribution merely mythological fantasy, or a matter of mis-understood ritual performance? Finally, as to the date of the Old Avestan texts, relevant for a discussion of the dating of the RV, Kellens is inclined to go along with the new consensus among Iranists to date them to about 1000 BCE, but he qualifies this with a passing remark that this date is "is still, probably, too timid" [p.100]. Kellens is a controversial figure who has frequently challenged received opinion. His Cartesian scepticism, which in my mind is the hallmark of his and Pirart's edition and commentaries on the Old Avestan texts, has aroused the wrath of many other Iranists because of the profound scepticism which he has expressed concerning modern Avestan studies as a whole. He has argued that Avestan studies is far more tenuous and uncertain than Vedic studies [if that can be believed!], both because of the relative size of Old Avestan texts [very small], but also because if the serious disruption which the Avestan tradition suffered as a result of various historical circumstances. In any case, it is no longer acceptable for Indologists to rely on out of date translations from Avestan such as those of Darmesteter and Mills, et al. Besides the recent French translation and commentaries of Kellens and Pirart, we are also fortunate to have the translation of Old Avestan texts, with commentary, in English in the1991 edition, of H. Humbach [with the assistance Skjaervo and Elfenbein]. Insler's translation of and commentary on the Gathas, of 1975, must also continue to be consulted. The 1986 work of J. Narten on the Yasna Haptanhaiti, in German, should also be acknowledged as the path-breaking work that it is. Though it has not been translated into English, its insights have been incorporated into later work. Behind all of this is the important influence of Karl Hoffmann.. With apologies to specialists for whom all of the above is self-evident, and to Dominik also, if the post exceeds acceptable length. However, there are many non-specialists on this list who might find this notice of use. It is cordially offered to them. best wishes, George Thompson From jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET Thu Nov 2 09:28:29 2000 From: jhr at UNIVERSALIST.SCREAMING.NET (John Richards) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 09:28:29 +0000 Subject: Re. vajra Message-ID: <161227063453.23782.7082432656287591313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 'sexual' interpretation is applied to all > precepts and legends. Or is it that a religious (spiritual) interpretation is applied to all apparently sexual descriptions? (a rather obvious and juicy sprat to catch the mackerel of the ordinary man's attention and interest) > the > truth discovered by Gautama is that "Buddhahood abides > in the female organ." It depends entirely on what level this is taken at, and where one's interests (and therefore interpretations) lie. John Richards Pembroke UK email - jhr at universalist.worldonline.co.uk website - www.stackpole.freeserve.co.uk From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 2 18:46:33 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 10:46:33 -0800 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063480.23782.4460540308844843797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 1.Cross-cousin marriages. It is practiced not only in the South India , but > also in Pakistan (Punjabi speakers) and Arabian countries also. Punjabi and > Arabic are not Dravidian languages. Hence your proposal falls flat here. > And do you have any studies to show the Wide prevalence of cross-cousin > marriages among all the 18 types of Dravidian speakers? Even in South India > , do you have any study to show what percentage of marriages are cross > cousin? Punjabis and Arabs do not have cross cousin weddings and are not included as people with Dravidian kinship. OTOH, parallel cousin weddings are a hallmark of the Arabians, which is found in the Bible too. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >?From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA Thu Nov 2 10:54:15 2000 From: leona.anderson at UREGINA.CA (Leona Anderson) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 10:54:15 +0000 Subject: Tim Moody/lance nelson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063444.23782.12404407786588183115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is Lance Nelson on this list? (the one that went to McMaster?) If so could he contact me or can someone send me his email addresss? leona anderson leona.anderson at uregina.ca [admin note: original date changed from Mon Aug 27 22:05:38 1956] From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Nov 2 05:24:16 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 10:54:16 +0530 Subject: two suggestions Message-ID: <161227063446.23782.3942809189247641834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two suggestions (1) Restrict the number of postings permitted per day to one.(This is the upper limit.) (2) Reduce the permissible length of the posting by 25%. Review the situation later. Rajesh Kochhar From VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Thu Nov 2 17:00:35 2000 From: VVRSPS at RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU (V.V. Raman) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 12:00:35 -0500 Subject: Tamoul et pirencu Message-ID: <161227063471.23782.15425331298051068153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nicht nur der Herr Gott, sondern auch Herr Professor weisst warum die Franzosen sagen D'ailleurs, en tamoul on dit pour et le sage Agattiyar vous expliquera pourquoi: Le son n'existe pas en tamoul. V. V. Raman November 2, 2000 From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Nov 2 12:13:36 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 13:13:36 +0100 Subject: Jaina diet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063460.23782.690026278526115083.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 31 Oct 2000, um 20:49 schrieb Phillip Ernest: > Are the Jainas Vegans, or do they drink milk like the Hindus? And was > the eschewing of milk and honey a part of early Buddhist practice? Milk products are used most widely by Jainas, although there are some who consider themselves stricter and eschew also milk (but I have seen that Digambara monks, who are generally considered the most strict of all Jainas, take milk products freely). Honey is a different matter. Traditionally, it is rejected because of the manner in which it was collected in olden times (which involved the mass killing of bees); lately, with the introduction of modern methods of bee-keeping, "ahimsaka" honey is produced, and the number of Jainas who consider this just as harmless, and thereby acceptable, as milk products is growing. RZ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 2 14:31:47 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 14:31:47 +0000 Subject: Epic weddings Message-ID: <161227063467.23782.13341379267115563507.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can Indology listers tell me, from M. Tokunaga's e-files or otherwise, about any attestation of cross-cousin weddings in the Mahabharata epic? Or point to some references. That is, apart from, Arjuna and Subhadraa wedding and they are cross cousins. Many thanks, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu Nov 2 23:36:47 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 15:36:47 -0800 Subject: About Tamil, etc. Message-ID: <161227063484.23782.18179419998085447082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > Am 1 Nov 2000, um 17:20 schrieb Andr? Signoret: > > > As far as I can see, Tamil (we say also Tamoul in > France, Gott weiss > > warum) [...] > > This is because the pronunciation of the vowel that > is represented > by the grapheme 'i' (in transliteration, > corresponding to a Tamil > grapheme) is influenced by the following retroflex > voiced fricative > and therefore does not sound like an 'i' to the > average speaker of > French. And actually the final 'l' would better have > been written 'r'; > but European languages do not have that phoneme, and > given the > choice between r and l, it somehow became customary > to write 'l' > (perhaps also because in the pronunciation of some > Tamil > speakers, the fricative becomes a lateral. And in > later Kannada and > Telugu, this sound became replaced by the retroflex > lateral). > > It is the problem of what to do when you write words > from another > language in a script that was designed for a very > different language. > (Cf. the common Indian usage of transliterating the > alveolar 't' and > 'd' of European languages as retroflexes.) French > 'tamoul' is not > really worse than English 'Tamil'. > > > Robert Zydenbos > Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >?From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Nov 2 16:27:51 2000 From: samvidullasa at HOTMAIL.COM (sthanesvar timalsina) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 16:27:51 +0000 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227063455.23782.1668460034972210058.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, I request to provide e-mail address of Dr. Dominic Goodall. Thanks in advance. Sthaneshvar Timalsina _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Nov 2 16:15:45 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 17:15:45 +0100 Subject: About Tamil, etc. In-Reply-To: <001201c0441f$b9b20320$d81e2cd5@pb> Message-ID: <161227063469.23782.372090110475203041.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 1 Nov 2000, um 17:20 schrieb Andr? Signoret: > As far as I can see, Tamil (we say also Tamoul in France, Gott weiss > warum) [...] This is because the pronunciation of the vowel that is represented by the grapheme 'i' (in transliteration, corresponding to a Tamil grapheme) is influenced by the following retroflex voiced fricative and therefore does not sound like an 'i' to the average speaker of French. And actually the final 'l' would better have been written 'r'; but European languages do not have that phoneme, and given the choice between r and l, it somehow became customary to write 'l' (perhaps also because in the pronunciation of some Tamil speakers, the fricative becomes a lateral. And in later Kannada and Telugu, this sound became replaced by the retroflex lateral). It is the problem of what to do when you write words from another language in a script that was designed for a very different language. (Cf. the common Indian usage of transliterating the alveolar 't' and 'd' of European languages as retroflexes.) French 'tamoul' is not really worse than English 'Tamil'. Robert Zydenbos Institut f?r Indologie und Iranistik From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Nov 2 17:19:17 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 17:19:17 +0000 Subject: [Job] Assistant Professor, South Asian History (fwd) Message-ID: <161227063473.23782.1168790418859274180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:15:06 +0000 From: Ulrich Pagel Assistant Professor, South Asian History Tenure-track position in South Asian history, available August 2001. Any specialization or period considered, with primary emphasis on India; sub-field in south-east Asia welcomed. Preference for candidates with Ph.D. and evidence of scholarly potential. Review of applications begins 1 November; open until filled. Contact James McCord, Dept of History, College of William and Mary, P O Box 8795, Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795, USA. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Thu Nov 2 18:33:28 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 18:33:28 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063477.23782.13401992604589197448.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 30 Oct 2000 22:19:14 +0530, RM. Krishnan wrote: > >Dear Mr Vijayaraghavan, > >Even though you chose not to reply to the questions I raised (regarding >customs common to Dravidians) in my earlier mail, I am still responding to >satisfy your curiosity. Dear Mr.Krishnan Thanks for the patient reply. Even though my question was when did the words Saivam and Vainavam gained widespread currency, my curiosity is still unsatisfied notwithstanding your best efforts as you can see from your reply. However, I shall not leave you dissatisfied about common customs among Dravidians. Here is the much awaited reply. "RM. Krishnan" at Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:47:53 +0530 wrote >> I can think of few customs which are common to Dravidians.> > 1. Wide prevalence of cross-cousin marriages > 2. Worship of Mother Goddess, especially Kali (=KoRRavai), Iyyanaar like > deities, etc > 3. Prevalence of Parisam (instead of dowry) among castes who have not > adopted Brahminized practices. > 4. Importance given to maternal uncle rather than father in many family > rites and rituals. > 5. Tradition of keeping a few weapons like spear, arivAl, trishul etc as a > family property handed over through generations and bringing them out for > showing on few solemn occasions (after polishing them, oiling them and > garlanding them) to show valor. Since I have been influenced by the philosophy of Bertrand Russell, I am analysing your proposition logically. Your proposition ("I can think of few customs which are common to Dravidians")can be taken as "all these following customs is found among one group of people and one only. Moreover this group is identical to Dravidian speakers". You have enumerated the 5 customs (even though this is not exhaustive) and the people in question are the speakers of Brahui, Malto, Kudukh, Gondi, Konda, Kui, Manda,Parji, Gadaba, Kolami, Pengo, Naiki, Kuvi, Telugu, Tulu, Kannada, Kodagu, Toda, Kota, Malayalam, Tamil. These customs are also put in contradistinction to "brahminised practices". To some extent the first of your propositions i.e. these 5 customs are found among only one group of people does not make any sense until we come to the second proposition i.e. this group is identical to the speakers of the 18 languages. My first reaction is whether do you have any anthropological studies connecting these customs connecting them exclusively to these speakers. Even a cursory examination of each of these customs shows the untenability of your proposition. 1.Cross-cousin marriages. It is practiced not only in the South India , but also in Pakistan (Punjabi speakers) and Arabian countries also. Punjabi and Arabic are not Dravidian languages. Hence your proposal falls flat here. And do you have any studies to show the Wide prevalence of cross-cousin marriages among all the 18 types of Dravidian speakers? Even in South India , do you have any study to show what percentage of marriages are cross cousin? 2.Worship of Mother goddess. This has been practiced for the last 6000 years in different societies in all continents. Remember Saraswati of the Vedas or various Mesapatomian religions like Ishtar, Nanna and others. Roughly speaking outside Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions worship of Goddess is prevelant. (Even in Christianity there is Virgin Mary) 3.Prevalence of Parisam- Are you saying there is no dowry among most castes in Tamilnadu and do you have any study to show the extent of dowry (defined as pre-marital payment in cash and kind by the bride to the bridegroom) among the speakers of these 18 languages. In any case in Islamic societies there is meher i.e. payment by the groom to the bride. You have not shown the exclusive connection of absense of dowry to the dravidian speakers. 4.Importance to maternal uncle than to father: Again there has been no study to prove any exclusion connection between the custom and the speakers of 18 languages. Can you point to any study which proves this with respect to at least Telugu speakers? 5.Tradition of keeping a few weapons like spear, etc: Again you offer no evidence to back up your statement. Your statement is more an ideological statement than a statement of science which can be verified objectively. If you want I can name this ideology also. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Nov 3 04:02:00 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 20:02:00 -0800 Subject: zakti [was vajra] Message-ID: <161227063490.23782.3759186965235143205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: zakti [was vajra] S. Hodge wrote: <> Setting the trustworthiness question of Walker's work aside, I would like to put forth a few questions. Prior to Her 'expansion' into Mahaayaana ritual and iconography, is Taaraa not considered a zaktis? Would her essence have altered whilst appearing midst the 'revisionist' Buddhic milieu? Is a rose not a rose by any other name? What exactly is meant by "interpretations that are borne out by traditional commentaries"? With thanks, VT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >?From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Nov 2 20:21:36 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 20:21:36 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063482.23782.2937612171136426745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra quotes: > Benjamin Walker, _Hindu World_(2 vols: II, 485), under > "Tantricism," remarks that "..... In [some] texts the Vajra, > 'thunderbolt', Buddha is conceived of as everlastingly > embracing the body of Taaraa or some other Zakti. [in > such a way that] the Tathaagata is the male > organ. Sukhaavati or paradise is the yoni, and the > truth discovered by Gautama is that "Buddhahood abides > in the female organ." Whenever I read an author who uses the term "`sakti" for the female consorts (vidyaa/praj~aa) of Buddhas, I find I get alarm-bells going off in my head. I think to myself, "If this guy doesn't know that that term is never used in Buddhist tantras (with the exception of the late Kaalacakra-tantra) and why not, how reliable is the rest of his/her stuff". This case seems to be typical -- it seems very reductionist and superimposes onto Buddhist tantrism interpretations that are borne out by traditional commentories. The last sentence strikes me as misleading over-imaginative rubbish. It might have been more convincing if he had referred to the exegesis of "bhagavat" which is sometimes glossed as "bhaga-endowed" where "bhaga" = "yoni". Perhaps Harunaga (if he has time) could comment. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 3 03:24:33 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 22:24:33 -0500 Subject: Book wanted Message-ID: <161227063488.23782.14005437682706749344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I have been told that the following book is unavailable. English translation of Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra (History of Indian Astronomy) Translated by R.V. Vaidya . Issued under the authority of the Director General of Meterology, New Delhi, India. Published by Controller of Publications, Civil Lines, Delhi, 1981. 2 Volumes. Would any of the list members possibly have it and be willing to sell it? I very quickly glanced through it at the New York Public Library Oriental Collections and I thought it seemed quite good. I seem to recall (but I could be wrong) that it even went so far as to give some information about panchangs being published in India. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Nov 3 05:12:25 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 00:12:25 -0500 Subject: Ancient Kurukshetra of Mahabharat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063498.23782.5133205690435494003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Being busy with other things right now (watch out for FRONTLINE... again!), a brief answer: >the Kuru emerged(page3)in the late Rigvedic period(1350-1200 BCE). Does this >mean the Mahabharat war(in which Kurus were involved)took place either in >this period or sometimes after 1200 BCE? As for dates, they are ALWAYS indirectly derived from archaeological ones (as long as we do not get a "Rgvedic ambassador" to Mesopotamia in some Babylonain/Elamite record!). The RV has no iron yet and should be before 1200 BCE, the date favored in recent years for the introduction of iron; however, Possehl has recently questioned the very idea of an Iron "Age". Some adjustment may be necessary. I will write about this after proper study. As for the "great battle," its archetype is in RV 7.18 (in Central Panjab!, with 10 'kings') -- but already the late book RV 1 has another one, of 20 'kings'! Post-RV (Vedic oral, not poetically formulated) traditions shift the names of the involved and the location ... All of this briefly summed up in the last section of my paper in Erdosy's Aryan Vol. of 1995 (see via my website below). >Kurukshetra, the hub of >the Kuru realm was located in the northwest of Delhi according to early >post-RV texts.Is this Kurukshetra the same where Mahabharat war took place? According to Post-RV texts (PB 25) Kuruksetra is on the Sarasvati (modern Sarsuti-Ghaggar-) and Drsadvati (Chautang) rivers. Same area as in the final version of the Mahabharata (with modern shrines on the Sarsuti etc., commemorating the battle etc. locations). >If yes, then to the best of my knowledge, to this day, no decisive >archaeological evidence had been presented in the support of the ancient >Kurukshetra of Mahabharat being northwest of Delhi. That might be very difficult to find! Note the *legendary* character of the battle: from a very real fight about supremacy in central Panjab (RV 7.18) to a more and more legendary version of it, plus, a gradual shift of location from the Ravi (paruSNI) to the Sarsuti (sarasvatI). Even real battles of that period, or of the classical period, are difficult to trace archaeologically. Does anyone know, by chance, about any trace of the great Hunnic battle (c. 400 CE) on the Catalaunian fields, in N.France, yet? >To the best of my knowledge, >there is no archaeological evidence about Kuru-Paancaal realm spreading >from Delhi towards east This is a cultural matter: the spread of orthopraxy and the Kuru model of a state, not Kuru conquest (see my Kuru paper, all via my web site, below). However, note that the PGW culture agrees with the Middle Vedic description of its own area, and this excludes the east (non-PGW, Bihar = Videha, and Kosala, in part) >and no evidence to Khandava, Kikata and Pramaganda >somewhere south of Kurukshetra near Delhi. in RV 3.53 itself. Khandava mentioned in a later Vedic texts (TA 5) Hope this helps. MW> ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Nov 3 02:49:51 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 02:49:51 +0000 Subject: Klostermaier's Vedic civilization Message-ID: <161227063486.23782.13661462014707622090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Artur Karp wrote: > >Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory and Revising Ancient Indian History > >By Klaus Klostermaier > >http://www.icj.iskcon.net/6_1klostermaier.htm> > Those who could not get through to ISKCON Web page to read K. Klostermaier's > paper on Questioning the Aryan Invasion Theory (I tried two times, in vain). maybe that's because you have the wrong URL -- it should be: http://www.iskcon.com/ICJ/6_1/6_1klostermaier.htm Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 3 04:12:05 2000 From: Ravi9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ravi Chaudhary) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 04:12:05 +0000 Subject: Book Notice: New trends in Avestan studies Message-ID: <161227063494.23782.12932258002793106288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To George Thompson Thank you for your informative post, and the sensitivity evident in theof the manner of your writing. Regards Ravi From giravani at JUNO.COM Fri Nov 3 04:20:23 2000 From: giravani at JUNO.COM (Narayan R. Joshi) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 04:20:23 +0000 Subject: Ancient Kurukshetra of Mahabharat Message-ID: <161227063496.23782.8439652207506430934.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the research paper,"Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan (Prof.Michael Witzel-June1990, pages 67) it was mentioned that the super tribe of the Kuru emerged(page3)in the late Rigvedic period(1350-1200 BCE). Does this mean the Mahabharat war(in which Kurus were involved)took place either in this period or sometimes after 1200 BCE? This might be very close to the time of the First Teerthankara of Jainas and also close to the time of the Jewish king Solomon (1000 BCE) and also to the Trojan War (1200 BCE).On the page 33 of the research paper it was mentioned that Kurukshetra, the hub of the Kuru realm was located in the northwest of Delhi according to early post-RV texts.Is this Kurukshetra the same where Mahabharat war took place? If yes, then to the best of my knowledge, to this day, no decisive archaeological evidence had been presented in the support of the ancient Kurukshetra of Mahabharat being northwest of Delhi. In one of the lectures given by Dr.Kochhar (please correct me if I were wrong)in India, it was mentioned that the Mahabharat place names and their indicated present locations in the North India do not match.To the best of my knowledge, there is no archaeological evidence about Kuru-Paancaal realm spreading from Delhi towards east and no evidence to Khandava, Kikata and Pramaganda somewhere south of Kurukshetra near Delhi.If there is such archaeological evidence presented in any publication, please let me know.Thanks. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 3 12:05:19 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 07:05:19 -0500 Subject: Book wanted Message-ID: <161227063512.23782.7654903906359869951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Peter, Many thanks for the bibliographic information. The Indian book dealer I deal with (DK Agencies) told me it was out-of-print and that he couldn't get it for me and thats why I'm hoping that somebody on the list might have a copy theyed be willing to sell. Thanks again, Harry >From: Peter Wyzlic >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Book wanted >Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:20:58 +0100 > >On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > > > I have been told that the following book is unavailable. > > > > English translation of Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra (History of Indian > > Astronomy) Translated by R.V. Vaidya . Issued under the authority of the > > Director General of Meterology, New Delhi, India. Published by >Controller > > of Publications, Civil Lines, Delhi, 1981. 2 Volumes. > >This seems to be the work of Shankar Balkrishna Dikshit (maybe Sankara >Balakrsna Diksita or other slightly differing forms in some >catalogues; the Libr. of Congress has: Dikshita, Sankara Balakrshna). It >was originally published in Marathi in the year 1896, see e.g. the >bibliography in David >Pingree: Census of the exact Sciences in Sanskrit, Series A, >vol. 1. Philadelphia 1970, p. 9. There is a Hindi translation by Sivnath >Jharkhandi (originally publ. 1957, the Library of Congress has a >repr. from 1963). > >The English translation you have seen was published in two volumes in the >years 1969 and 1981. There the author's name is given as: Dikshit, Sankar >Balakrishna. > >It is perhaps available from an antiquarian booksellers. The online search >systems (like bookfinder or bibliofind) does not seem to find it, >however. But not all booksellers participate in these online systems, so >it may be available somewhere. It may help to contact Indian vendors >of used/antiquarian books, too. > >Peter Wyzlic > >-- >Peter Wyzlic >Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn >Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 >D-53113 Bonn >Deutschland / Germany _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Nov 3 13:15:10 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 08:15:10 -0500 Subject: position available Message-ID: <161227063517.23782.17471774352377645959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please post: UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN PROGRAM IN COMPARATIVE LITERATURE 2015 TISCH HALL ANN ARBOR, MI 48109-1003 Opening for an Assistant Professor of Comparative Literature and Asian Languages and Cultures to begin September 1, 2001. Specialization in postcolonial theory with a focus on the modern literatures and languages of South Asia. Required: Ph.D., ability to teach in both English and languages of specialization. Send letter of application and c.v. to Tobin Siebers, Director, Program in Comparative Literature, University of Michigan, 2015 Tisch Hall, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1003. Official deadline is November 10, 2000. All applications will be acknowledged. The University of Michigan is a non-discriminatory-affirmative action employer. From vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK Fri Nov 3 10:05:33 2000 From: vijay at VOSSNET.CO.UK (Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 10:05:33 +0000 Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kinship systems Message-ID: <161227063501.23782.1642181883788095466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:46:33 -0800, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >> 1.Cross-cousin marriages. It is practiced not only in the South India , but >> also in Pakistan (Punjabi speakers) and Arabian countries also. Punjabi and >> Arabic are not Dravidian languages. Hence your proposal falls flat here. >> And do you have any studies to show the Wide prevalence of cross-cousin >> marriages among all the 18 types of Dravidian speakers? Even in South India >> , do you have any study to show what percentage of marriages are cross >> cousin? > > Punjabis and Arabs do not have cross cousin weddings and are not included > as people with Dravidian kinship. OTOH, parallel cousin weddings > are a hallmark of the Arabians, which is found in the Bible too. Arabs and generally Middle-eastern people have parellel cousin marriages. On the other hand cross cousin marriages are practiced across the globe. For example Yanamano in the Amazon and Akan of west africa have cross cousin marriage http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology/tutor/kinmenu.html. Are you going to include Yanamano and Akan among Dravidians? Do you have definite information on the marriage practices of speakers of Brahui, Malto, Kudukh, Gondi, Konda, Kui, Manda,Parji, Gadaba, Kolami, Pengo, Naiki, Kuvi, Telugu, Tulu, Kannada, Kodagu, Toda, Kota? From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Nov 3 20:19:31 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 12:19:31 -0800 Subject: zakti [was vajra], B. Walker's Hindu World In-Reply-To: <004a01c045c3$4d23b960$6f1f893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227063525.23782.17627802481850445102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As I recall, V. Raghavan wrote a long review or review article on B. Walker's _Hindu World_, pointing out that the author/compiler did not have ability to read primary sources andthat his purpose was more to malign Hinduism that to enlighten about it. -- aklujkar >?From Jose Thevercad Fri Nov 3 23:36:45 2000 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:36:45 +0000 Reply-To: Indology Sender: Indology From: "" Subject: vastusastra Hello, I am a student at McGill University, doing research on the vastusastraic text, Manasara. I am wondering whether any commentaries existed within the sastraic tradition on this text or any other vastusastra text such as Mayamata, Silparatna, Samaranganasutradhara,Aparajitapraccha and so on, in the same way that bhasyas and varttikas existed on Panini's Ashtadhyayi, the Gita etc. If they did exist, where (library/archive) can they be found today? I will be grateful for any information. Jose Thevercad From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Fri Nov 3 11:20:58 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 12:20:58 +0100 Subject: Book wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227063503.23782.6959273478825554653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > I have been told that the following book is unavailable. > > English translation of Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra (History of Indian > Astronomy) Translated by R.V. Vaidya . Issued under the authority of the > Director General of Meterology, New Delhi, India. Published by Controller > of Publications, Civil Lines, Delhi, 1981. 2 Volumes. This seems to be the work of Shankar Balkrishna Dikshit (maybe Sankara Balakrsna Diksita or other slightly differing forms in some catalogues; the Libr. of Congress has: Dikshita, Sankara Balakrshna). It was originally published in Marathi in the year 1896, see e.g. the bibliography in David Pingree: Census of the exact Sciences in Sanskrit, Series A, vol. 1. Philadelphia 1970, p. 9. There is a Hindi translation by Sivnath Jharkhandi (originally publ. 1957, the Library of Congress has a repr. from 1963). The English translation you have seen was published in two volumes in the years 1969 and 1981. There the author's name is given as: Dikshit, Sankar Balakrishna. It is perhaps available from an antiquarian booksellers. The online search systems (like bookfinder or bibliofind) does not seem to find it, however. But not all booksellers participate in these online systems, so it may be available somewhere. It may help to contact Indian vendors of used/antiquarian books, too. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn Deutschland / Germany From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Nov 3 12:39:51 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 12:39:51 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: <161227063515.23782.8729030290377307924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As you know, in an attempt to keep INDOLOGY fast, lean and clean, we recently tweaked the listserv software to prevent the list receiving email containing attachments or HTML formatted messages. This policy is common in the listserv and majordomo community. AOL has recently released version 6 of its email client, which has no facility to turn off HTML formatting. So anyone using the new AOL will not be able to post to this list. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: Allan Newsome >To: list-managers at greatcircle.com >Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:54:59 -0600 > >Hey Folks, > >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >sending email in "Plain Text" format. > >This is a problem for both users and managers because people using AOL >6.0 will not be able to post messages to majordomo lists. > >[...] >I've already written AOL but I'm not going to hold my breath for a >solution from them. I've also sent an email to my list members letting >them know they'll have problems if they upgrade. > >Allan Newsome > From Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Fri Nov 3 11:49:40 2000 From: Isaacson at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Harunaga Isaacson) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 12:49:40 +0100 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063508.23782.3188041062038466188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: > Ven Tantra quotes: > > Benjamin Walker, _Hindu World_(2 vols: II, 485), under > > "Tantricism," remarks that "..... In [some] texts the Vajra, > > 'thunderbolt', Buddha is conceived of as everlastingly > > embracing the body of Taaraa or some other Zakti. [in > > such a way that] the Tathaagata is the male > > organ. Sukhaavati or paradise is the yoni, and the > > truth discovered by Gautama is that "Buddhahood abides > > in the female organ." > Whenever I read an author who uses the term "`sakti" for the female > consorts (vidyaa/praj~aa) of Buddhas, I find I get alarm-bells going > off in my head. I think to myself, "If this guy doesn't know that > that term is never used in Buddhist tantras (with the exception of the > late Kaalacakra-tantra) and why not, how reliable is the rest of > his/her stuff". This case seems to be typical -- it seems very > reductionist and superimposes onto Buddhist tantrism interpretations > that are borne out by traditional commentories. The last sentence > strikes me as misleading over-imaginative rubbish. It might have been > more convincing if he had referred to the exegesis of "bhagavat" which > is sometimes glossed as "bhaga-endowed" where "bhaga" = "yoni". > Perhaps Harunaga (if he has time) could comment. I suppose you (Stephen) intended to write 'not borne out by traditional commentaries' ? Or have I failed to catch your drift? I certainly feel, like Stephen Hodge, that Walker was neither well-informed nor insightful (and like Stephen I would be generally inclined to suspect an author who uses "sakti as standard term for the female consort of a tantric deity or practitioner). But the sentence which Stephen regards as 'misleading over-imaginative rubbish', and which strikes me as indeed rather sensationalist and distortive, is, it must be admitted, actually one which seems to be at least partly/distantly based on textual evidence. It seems to be inspired by some famous lines from the Hevajratantra: vihare 'ha.m sukhaavatyaa.m sadvajrayo.sito bhage (II.ii.38ab) ...... dvaatri.m"sallak.sa.nii "saastaa a"siitivya~njanaani prabhu.h (sic) yo.sidbhage sukhaavatyaa.m "sukranaamnaa vyavasthita.h (II.ii.41) (If Walker was aware of this latter passage, and had it in mind when he wrote, he seems to have either ignored "sukranaamnaa or interpreted it as vajranaamnaa (?).) As to how these lines (which are incidentally echoed in some other yoginiitantra texts) were interpreted within the tradition(s)---that is a complicated matter. (The short answer, which is the only one I would like to give at present, is 'Variously'.) I have not read Walker's piece, aside from this quote, and I'm grateful to Ven Tantra for drawing our attention to it, for it may be of some interest for the history of the (mis)interpretation of Buddhist tantra in modern times. In general, it is hard to find any secondary literature at all on Buddhist tantra that is well-informed and avoids sensationalism and/or overly strong prejudice/bias. Those really interested in (the history of) Vajrayaana in India are strongly advised to learn to read primary sources. Nevertheless the past decades have, I think, seen real advances in the study of this field, and in the coming ones I hope that even more will be made. Harunaga Isaacson Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Hamburg University From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Nov 3 13:46:56 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 13:46:56 +0000 Subject: Address requested Message-ID: <161227063519.23782.8196619839611475963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the current whereabouts or email address of Jennifer Haswell, formerly of Stirling University, Scotland, and now believed to be based in New Jersey, USA? Thanks for any information-- Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Nov 3 15:07:35 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 15:07:35 +0000 Subject: SV: Classical languages of India Message-ID: <161227063521.23782.2951234100747186603.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 10/20/2000 5:59:17 AM Central Daylight Time, lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM writes: >>...I wonder if you have read the paper >> titled " zAtavAhana kings in ancient Tamilnadu" by A >> Kamatchinathan of Annamalai University. ... SP>I was not aware of this paper when I posted my message. My SP>posting resulted from my reading of kaLaviyal. However, after SP>L. Srinivas' message, I have obtained the paper and read it. SP>It does not alter my conclusions. The paper refered here is: A. Kamatchinathan, Sa:tava:hana kings in ancient Tamil Nadu, PILC journal of Dravidic studies, January 1997, p. 15-21. >> The paper proposes a Munda origin for the Satavahanas >> and argues for Satavahana origin of certain Tamil >> kings like the atiyamAn's of takaTUr. ... >> Explanation for commissioning of works such as the >> "cAtavAkanam" and for issuing of Tamil bilingual coin >> etc is then developed as a natural corollary. <<< As I see it, the paper has several problems. For one thing, the etymologies of names Satakarni and Satavahana are not satisfactorily explained to be of Munda origin. Even more importantly, the name atiyamAn2 is simply not explained etymologically at all. One has to have a leap (of faith) to a nearby mountain, kutirai malai, to believe in this theory! But the paper does say, "...Sa:tava:hanas also were found to have favoured Tamil language and literature. For instance Sa:tava:han_am was a Tamil work written under the patronage of some Sa:tava:hana king. This work disappeared long ago (Ir_aiyan_a:r kal.aviyalurai 1943:6). More remarkably Sa:tava:hanas issued bilingual coins containing both Prakrit and Tamil phrases (Panneerselvam 1969). Scholars both Western and Eastern, have recently traced parallelisms between Ha:la's Sattasai, a collection of 700 erotic poems in Prakrit and some love poems of Sangam Tamil Anthologies (Hart 1976)." I see no merit in Kamatchinathan's statement: "The Andhra Sa:tava:hanas would not have patronized Tamil and Tamil poets unless they had close geneological connections with Tamilnadu." Royal patronage and geneological connections do not have to go together.Regards S. Palaniappan >>> I also don't see what Kamatchinathan tries to prove. Having seen no words of Munda origin in Tamil sangam texts (are there any?) or in TN/Kerala topo- or hydronymy, it will a stretch too far out to conclude that ancient Tamil kings were Munda in origin. I don't buy Kamatchinathan's statement Satavahanas will not patronize Tamil unless "they have close geneological connections with Tamilnadu". They were kings of Telugu/Deccan country, and their origins must be north of Tamil Nadu. However, they had friendship and wars with Tamil kings near Kanchi and Chennai. Satavahanas coins with Tamil legends, atleast three of them, have been found. (Ref. I. Mahadevan's papers, Ramayya collection in Hyderabad). Following Iravatham, it is likely that Satavahanas issued bilingual coins featuring Tamil legends on one side because Tamil was used as the administrative language for few centuries BC. Recently 2nd century BCE coins written in Tamil have been found in the *South* of Sri Lanka, in traditional Sinhala areas. "kaTalan" - seafaring man (kaTal=sea) occur in these coins. The seafaring ships of "tiraiyar" and "kaTalar" occur in sangam texts. Interesting that Satavahana coins were found portraying ships (sailing to SE Asia) in sites near Madras. "Tiraiyar" means seafaring folks, "toNTaimAn2 iLantiraiyan" a forefather of Pallavas. Kulke and Rothermund point to "Pallava" being a sanskrit rendering of "toNTai" flowers. On Satavahana coins depicting ships found in ToNTaimaNTalam, near Madras: "This is evident from certain pieces of Andhra or Satavahana coins, belonging to the reign of Pulumayi and bearing the figure of a two-masted sailing ship.(2) These 'ship' coins probably suggest that Pulumayi was accompanied in some of his compaigns by a fleet of war-boats, and they were issued to commemorate a naval victory over the people who inhabited Tondamandala region, in which the coins were found. This inference will be considerably strengthened if we remember the fact that the coast-region in question was inhabited in ancient times by a people who were known to Tamil literature as the Tiraiyar (lit. sea-people). In the succeeding centuries, the Coromandel coast appears to have been converted into a naval base by the Pallavas of southern India, That the Pallavas maintained a naval force may be inferred, firstly, from the 'ship' type coins, which have been attributed, though doubtfully, to them, and secondly, from the Kasakudi Plates, which tell us that king Narasimhavaman of this dynasty conquered Lanka or Ceylon. The conquest of an island situated far into the sea could only have been effected with the help of a fleet of ships." >?From "Naval Warfare in ancient India", Prithwis Chandra Chakravarti The Indian Historical Quarterly Vol.4, No.4 1930.12, pp.645-664 Regards, N. Ganesan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Nov 3 11:17:59 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 16:47:59 +0530 Subject: S B Dikshit translated Message-ID: <161227063506.23782.12195985991280383328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The original book by S B Dikshit was published in 1896 in Marathi, It was translated into English and published by India Meteorological Dept. I do not think it is possible to buy it first hand. The best way would be to borrow it from a library (and photocopy!!) rajesh kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Harry Spier >I have been told that the following book is unavailable. > >English translation of Bharatiya Jyotish Sastra (History of Indian >Astronomy) Translated by R.V. Vaidya . Issued under the authority of the >Director General of Meterology, New Delhi, India. Published by Controller >of Publications, Civil Lines, Delhi, 1981. 2 Volumes. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Nov 3 12:09:46 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 17:39:46 +0530 Subject: bharata battle Message-ID: <161227063510.23782.786767092951340740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Narayan Joshi on Mahabharata/Kuruksetra While assigning a date to the Bharata battle, the following points need to be kept in mind *Indraprastha, said to founded at the time of the battle ,is a PGW side. * The common denominator in Mbh-named sites is PGW. If present-day Hastinapur was the traditional capital of the Kurus , then it should have been much older than Indraprastha. * More generally, large-scale habitation east of Yamuna-Ganga ( Yaga) doab did not take place till the advent of iron-age.The Rgveda is decidedly a pre- iron age document. Therefore, the kings and chieftains of the pre-Bharata battle could not have been stationed east of Ganga.. * According to the Puranas, king Kuru preceded Kauravas/Pandavas by 23 generations.The Kuru-Pancala tribes have a history older than the participants in the Bharata battle.The name Kaurava was a nonce word to differentiate them from the Pandavas. The purpose for the battle , in fact , was to determine if the Pandavas, not being the sons of Pandu ,were entitled to the family tree. I am inclined to place the battle circa 1000 BC.Roughly speaking this is also the beginning of iron age in India.For the geography of pre-Bharata battle people we must look to the east of the Yaga doab (where else?) From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Sat Nov 4 01:44:44 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 17:44:44 -0800 Subject: [ADMIN] HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: <161227063532.23782.1298181735181404726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Best untweak the software. HTML is the standard these days, internet browsers that handle HTML are free, and bandwidth differences are slight. Users who can't handle HTML email need to catch up; times have changed. David ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 4:39 AM Subject: [ADMIN] HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) As you know, in an attempt to keep INDOLOGY fast, lean and clean, we recently tweaked the listserv software to prevent the list receiving email containing attachments or HTML formatted messages. This policy is common in the listserv and majordomo community. AOL has recently released version 6 of its email client, which has no facility to turn off HTML formatting. So anyone using the new AOL will not be able to post to this list. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: Allan Newsome >To: list-managers at greatcircle.com >Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:54:59 -0600 > >Hey Folks, > >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >sending email in "Plain Text" format. > >This is a problem for both users and managers because people using AOL >6.0 will not be able to post messages to majordomo lists. > >[...] >I've already written AOL but I'm not going to hold my breath for a >solution from them. I've also sent an email to my list members letting >them know they'll have problems if they upgrade. > >Allan Newsome > From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Nov 3 17:53:55 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 17:53:55 +0000 Subject: zakti [was vajra] Message-ID: <161227063523.23782.10149293133183364623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven. Tantra wrote: > Prior to Her 'expansion' into Mahaayaana ritual and > iconography, is Taaraa not considered a zaktis? I believe that the consensus view is that Taaraa was of Buddhist origin from the start so she would not have been called a `sakti I suppose. Also as far as I can see, in the Buddhist tantric material I have read, there is quite a difference between a vidyaa/praj~naa and a `sakti -- the female component is basically "passive" in Buddhism (the male is active = upaaya) while a `sakti is, as the word suggests, "active" through this distinction may have got blurred in later Buddhist yoginii tantras. > What exactly is meant by "interpretations that are borne out by traditional > commentaries"? Ooops -- as Harunaga noticed, the sentence should read "...that are NOT borne out by .." What I was trying to say was that scholars like Walker have presumably not read mnay or any of the traditional commentaries -- given that he is writing about Hinduism one suspects that while he may read Sanskrit etc he probably does not read Tibetan. There are a decent number of tantric commentaries available in Skt but I am only aware of about three or four of these having even been published in edited form let alone translated, however the bulk of tantric commentaries, especially the key older ones have only survived, as far as we know, in Tibetan. May I suggest, echoing Harunaga, that those who wish to make statements about Buddhist tantrism etc could do well by first learning the relevent languages and reading the stuff for themselves rather than relying on the tiny handful of primary sources available in English etc translation. Of course, interpretations in any given traditional commentary may not be true to the original intention of the text it deals with but given the cultural distance that exists between ourselves and the basic tantric texts, I feel that the commentary writers being closer to the source might have soemthing more useful to say -- especially given the tradition of initiatory transmisson they would have operated within. Even then there are well known sub-schools of interpretation within the commentorial tradition. For example, in the case of the Mahaa-vairocana-abhisa.mbodhi-tantra there is a striking difference between the almost contemporaneous commentaries of Buddhaguhya (in Tibetan) and `Subhakarasi.mha (in Chinese), and, indeed, they both allude to variant interpretations. This is also reflected in the two translations of the root text in Tibetan and Chinese -- the interpretation guided the translation. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Nov 4 01:40:22 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 20:40:22 -0500 Subject: Book Notice: New trends in Avestan studies Message-ID: <161227063530.23782.9911018544714586333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There have been several requests for more information.about Kellens's book. For those interested in tracking it down, here is more information: *Essays on Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism*, translated and edited by Prods Oktor Skjaervo, published by Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, California, 2000. ISBN 1-568-59129-2, paperback US 19.95. The publisher's web site is: www.mazdapublishers.com I'm glad to see so much interest in this book! Best, George Thompson From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Nov 3 23:49:22 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 00 23:49:22 +0000 Subject: vajra Message-ID: <161227063534.23782.9721587668518387928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harunaga Isaacson wrote: > I suppose you (Stephen) intended to write 'not borne out by traditional > commentaries' ? Or have I failed to catch your drift? Well spotted ! You are quite right -- too much to do in too little time :) > But the sentence which Stephen regards as 'misleading over-imaginative rubbish', > and which strikes me as indeed rather sensationalist and distortive, is, it must be > admitted, actually one which seems to be at least partly/distantly based > on textual evidence. OK, perhaps a bit hyperbolic. But my point is that Walker (and others) are extrapolating from just one text and apparently generalizing. It's strange how they always seem to use the Hevajra Tantra as a source -- perhaps because it is one of the few tantras readily available in English :) > It seems to be inspired by some famous lines from the Hevajratantra: vihare 'ha.m sukhaavatyaa.m sadvajrayo.sito bhage (II.ii.38ab) But the Yogaratnamaalaa indicates that "sukhaavatii" is not being used in the traditional sense of Amitaabha's Pure Land, not that one would realize this from Walker's statement. His further statement, that `the truth discovered by Gautama is that "Buddhahood abides in the female organ"` seems a bizarre fiction of his own making -- I wonder what his grounds are for saying this given that "Gautama" is never one of the persona dramatis in the relevent tantras. I would understand if he had predicated this of Hevajra etc. but to state this of Gautama seems rather sloppy scholarship to me. > In general, it is hard to find any secondary literature at all on > Buddhist tantra that is well-informed and avoids sensationalism > and/or overly strong prejudice/bias. O how true !! Once in the long-drawn out saga to get my MVT published, it was at one stage with a well-known Buddhist publisher. The editor there wanted to put a nice juicy yab-yum illustration on the cover. When I pointed out that such iconography has no relevence to that work, I was told that this didn't matter since it would be eye-catching and help sell the book ! > Those really interested in (the history of) Vajrayaana in India are strongly > advised to learn to read primary sources. I am minded of the lines in the Dao-de-jing, "Those who know do not speak and those who speak do not know". Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Nov 4 00:35:32 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 00 00:35:32 +0000 Subject: bharata battle Message-ID: <161227063527.23782.8687052538318530836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:39:46 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar wrote: >* More generally, large-scale habitation east of Yamuna-Ganga ( Yaga) >doab did not take place till the advent of iron-age.The Rgveda is >decidedly a pre- iron age document. Therefore, the kings and chieftains >of the pre-Bharata battle could not have been stationed east of Ganga.. In ancient India, all buildings were generally made of wood. In that case, traces of habitation along the river-banks would generally get washed away in the floods. >I am inclined to place the battle circa 1000 BC.Roughly speaking this is >also the beginning of iron age in India.For the geography of pre-Bharata >battle people we must look to the east of the Yaga doab (where else?) What margin of error would you allow on either side of the date? Yashwant From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Nov 4 09:09:38 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 00 01:09:38 -0800 Subject: zakti [was vajra] Message-ID: <161227063537.23782.5810079462075597384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subject: zakti [was vajra] Thanking Stephen Hodge, who patiently wrote: <> Another consensus view might be that the Goddess is the origin. Academically, of course, I was under the strong impression ? probably from Eliade (_Yoga_, 1964) ? that early in the 2nd century CE, two new feminine deities entered Mahaayaana Buddhism: Praj~naapaaramitaa and Taaraa. As you intimate, the first is an invention/'origin' of the Doctors of the Church. Perhaps it could be said that She is the feminine embodiment of perfected intelligence, and the corporal expression of an entire metaphysical system contained in the Mahapraj~naapaaramitaazaatra, which advances the doctrine of zuunyataa. Taaraa on the other hand, had seemed to be one among a dozen or more Indian goddesses of independent origin that made their way into Tantric Buddhist ritual and iconography. In this way, I was led to believe that Taaraa could justifiably be interpreted as the epiphany of aboriginal India's Great Goddess Zakti, the Eternal Saviouress; and that when Buddhism recruited Her, it thereby conferred on India's Savage Goddess the distinguished status of Knowledge Personified as a Voluptuous Goddess. This would not be without its Western parallel. I believe that the Biblical Sophia has also been regarded as the personification of higher intelligence. Elsewhere, I gathered ? perhaps also wrongly (my resources are limited) ? that Taaraa (lit. "star") is also one of the Ten Mahaavidyaas or "Great Knowledge Bearers" that figure prominently in Hindist, Jain and Buddhist tantric traditions. The Jain connection strengthened my assumption that her history was earlier than the Buddhist Tantras; given that Jainism predates Buddhist Tantra and has undergone practically no doctrinal change throughout its exceedingly long history. In the Hindic or pan-Indian perspective, I learned that Taaraa is typically identified as an aspect of Braahman's Zakti who opens the way to paraa-vidyaa, "higher knowledge," the direct, intuitive transcendental knowledge that leads to ultimate illumination and release. However, it is Taaraa's combination as 'goddess' AND 'savioress' of compassion that has made her the most admired Devi among the Buddhist faithful. In another interpretation, her name means, "to cross," as she enables her devotee to cross the ocean of birth and death. But she is mostly adored for protection and material advantage. She is typically depicted as a slender young woman. In sculpture, Her expression is refined and alert. Her hands often take the form of graceful muudras, one hand showing the sign for teaching, the other lowered in the sign of granting boons. <<. . . so she would not have been called a `sakti I suppose.>> Your "suppose" is a little telling. There seems to be caution over assigning terms. Pardon the not-altogether-rhetorical question if you will, but have terms such as 'divinity,' 'goddess,' 'devi,' and 'consort,' etc., been used in the Buddhist Tantras? In some quarters today, zakti is nearly an English loan word. The goddess Maamakii is another ?devi? that found her way into Mahaayaana ritual and iconography (Hodge, 8, May, 2000). So, again I pose this question. Prior to Maamakii's divine ?expansion? (or recruitment), is She not considered a zakti-to-be? Are we to assume that any pre- or extra-Buddhist feminine divinity submitted herself to or simply underwent a transformation of divine essence upon her appearance midst the 'revisionist' Buddhic milieu? Or would she possess a sort of Krsna-esque "inconceivable simultaneousness"? Interestingly, we have now learned that the Buddhist Tantras do in fact employ the contentious term zakti, as you?re your mention of Kaalacakra-tantra ? and why not. It's natural. But could you kindly throw some light on this? How might we address the Good Woman? <> ". . .this distinction may have got blurred. . ." = the editors weren't doing their job? Is this the old spiritual apartheid machine at work again? :) And yes, your active/passive distinction is widely recognized. But as you well know, though the devi may be outwardly keeping right still, you are inwardly flying to the seventh heaven. Would you be willing to offer a set of parameters for defining and clarifying the big "D" you perceive between a `sakti and a vidyaa? From you own experience please. My own take on this is that when goddess/consorts entered Mahaayaana their external associations with fecundity and the life-giving energy of earth, vis-a-vis Ziva?s better half, and the strong connected to The Sacred Mountain, etc. were set aside ? in so far as that was possible ? in preference of the internal mirror-like imagery of Her intelligence, discernment, illumination and compassion. With the "later Buddhist yoginii tantras" (as you mention) I suppose this interiority was maintained but in a rather laya-yogic/body-energy sort of way. All the same, the Buddhist devis are fundamentally aspects of zakti, here seeing "zakti" symbolically, and using it as a general anthropological interpretive tool. Thus, in the Buddha-cult, zakti are typically conceived as embodiments of the active feminine intelligence-function and commonly depicted in passionate embrace with their "active" male consorts, vis-?-vis Vajra-dhara (=Ziva-Buddha). Call this "reductionism" if you like, i.e., reducing things to a common interpretive format? or "destructuralism," making things strange. These are not bad labels. These are appropriate methodologies for one who is not interpreting things from within the church of traditional commentary. Independent religious anthropologists find no fun in that. << OK, perhaps a bit hyperbolic. But my point is that Walker (and others) are extrapolating from just one text and apparently generalizing . . . His further statement, that the truth discovered by Gautama is that "Buddhahood abides in the female organ" seems a bizarre fiction of his own making. I wonder what his grounds are for saying this, given that "Gautama" is never one of the persona dramatis in the relevant tantras . . . to state this of Gautama seems rather sloppy scholarship>> Is not the entire Tantric literature a bizarre fiction of somebody's making? Why are we so attracted to it? I am not offended by any of this. Perhaps his reasons, if any, were the same as why we translate vidyaa as "consort." In other words: How to convey the iconographic dramaturgy? The Tathagata is supposed to mean something like "The Buddha." The Buddha is supposed to mean something like "Gautama." Perhaps its to make people scratch their heads and figure out what this vast Buddhic enterprise has been up to all along. <> It?s a publishers market. To publish implies a literate public. (Who reads Sanskrit?) But as humans, indeed, we are sensual beings. The whole tantric episode could well be interpreted as an exercise in sublimated tabloid scandal-mongering in order to arouse a diverted public. And by stashing Truth in the virgin?s little jungle book, the punters come a-panting in their gallant bid to unseat the living goddess! Regarding Benjamin Walker, please don't presume that citing equals endorsing. Books are awfully scarce around here. . . I've run too long. Shows what "I" know. The Malabar jasmine blooms at noon ? right outside my cave. high regards, VT References: 1.) Eliade, Mircea. _Yoga: Immortality and Freedom_. Translated from the original French (Paris, 1954) by Wilard R. Trask. Bollingen Series LVI. New York: Pantheon Books, 1964. 2.) Hodge, Stephen. ?Buddhist Goddess Identification.? Email. Indology Archives. , 8 May 2000. 3.) Walker, Benjamin. Hindu World: An Encyclopedic Survey of Hinduism_ London: George Allen and Unwin, Ltd., 1968. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 4 12:50:28 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 00 04:50:28 -0800 Subject: Klostermaier's Vedic civilization Message-ID: <161227063542.23782.5614865269670395490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A. Karp wrote: >Pity, but there is no reflex whatsoever of the discussion that must have >taken place after the presentation. E. Bryant has a response, http://www.iskcon.com/ICJ/6_2/62edwin.htm for the "new" chronology, http://www.iskcon.com/ICJ/6_1/6_1klostermaier.htm _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Nov 4 13:02:22 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 00 05:02:22 -0800 Subject: Silk dress Message-ID: <161227063544.23782.1234585608782463241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After reading about "ahimsaka" honey allowed for eating by (modern) Jains, a question about silk. Do any Jain or Buddhist textual sources discuss about silk and the nonviolence of killing silkworms? Do the Chinese monks avoid wearing silk for this reason? I doubt Vaishnava or Saiva sources prohibited wearing silk. Thanks for comments, Prasad _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU Sat Nov 4 13:36:15 2000 From: rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU (rohan.oberoi at CORNELL.EDU) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 00 08:36:15 -0500 Subject: [ADMIN] HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: <161227063547.23782.14466203896233182351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I completely agree with Dominik. I would add that: 1. HTML mail is a security threat to security-conscious mail users, not just to listserv managers. 2. Many email readers and clients for the disabled (Braille and sound based) do not handle HTML-formatted mail. 3. Some people have old computers and CRT terminals because they can't afford better. Perhaps they live in India, which is not entirely inconceivable for this list. Techno-cheerleaders like David haven't volunteered to buy all of them brand new computers. 4. HTML seriously interferes with the archiving of lists for posterity, not just because it increases the size, but because nobody knows what the "standard" enriched text format will be ten or twenty years from now. All that apart, a solution does need to be found to allow AOL users to access the list. The best would be for everyone to complain to AOL and get them to add the same "Turn off HTML mail" button that all other modern mail clients have. Failing that, perhaps AOL sends out multipart plain text and HTML versions, as many clients do? If so, perhaps everything but the text part could be stripped out either at the mail server level, or through Procmail? Regards, Rohan. Dominik Wujastyk wrote: >On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, David Salmon wrote: > >[...] >> Users who can't handle HTML email need to catch up; times have changed. > >That's not it. This issue isn't the handling of HTML, which is, I agree, >pretty easy. (Though one should never underestimate the extent to which >simple dumb or DOS terminals are still in wide use.) [...] From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Nov 4 09:42:24 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 00 09:42:24 +0000 Subject: [ADMIN] HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) In-Reply-To: <000c01c04601$0fd1e760$db9ea8cf@workgroup> Message-ID: <161227063539.23782.13875748862635920663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, David Salmon wrote: [...] > Users who can't handle HTML email need to catch up; times have changed. That's not it. This issue isn't the handling of HTML, which is, I agree, pretty easy. (Though one should never underestimate the extent to which simple dumb or DOS terminals are still in wide use.) Far more problematic is the increase in bandwidth, which more than doubles when an HTML copy of the message is added to the plain text version, and the serious security threat to listserve systems because of the HTML