From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 1 00:41:14 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 00 17:41:14 -0700 Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227058213.23782.11650294062678408891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See also Patrick Olivelle's recent translation of the Dharmasutras of Apastamba, Baudhayana, Gautama and Vasishtha (OUP, 1999). Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 1 05:24:51 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 00 22:24:51 -0700 Subject: SamnyAsin names Message-ID: <161227058220.23782.12348073973591633672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> R Zydenbos writes : >The young Vaasudeva was named Puur.napraj;na and later >became Aanandatiirtha (there you have another such name ending: >-tiirtha); he finally gave himself the name 'Madhva' I think you've mixed up the Dvaita philosopher with the Advaita philosopher of the same name. My reference was to the latter who is supposed to have founded the Vijayanagar Empire and acted as its prime minister. Later he's said to have renounced life and had become the pontiff of the Shringeri math under the name, "VidhyAranya". His works include Panchadasi, Shankara dig Vijaya etc. He is also considered to be the uncle of MadhvAchArya of the Sarva Darshana Samgraha fame. Well, we've one too many Madhvas I guess! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Mon May 1 03:24:07 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 00 23:24:07 -0400 Subject: Any opinions on two reference works? Message-ID: <161227058216.23782.11926716143535380048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Someone recently suggested consulting the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I visited the Routledge site and discovered the 10-volume set costs almost $4,000. I noted they have two other titles that look promising: Companion Encyclopedia of Asian Philosophy Concise Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy Does anyone have an opinion on these books? Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 1 08:04:53 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 01:04:53 -0700 Subject: SamnyAsin names Message-ID: <161227058222.23782.858555753881770164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>The young Vaasudeva was named Puur.napraj;na and later >>became Aanandatiirtha (there you have another such name ending: >>-tiirtha); he finally gave himself the name 'Madhva' > >I think you've mixed up the Dvaita philosopher with the Advaita philosopher >of the same name. Nanda, the confusion is entirely on your part. madhva is not mAdhava. The author(s) of Pancadasi, Sarva-darsana-sangraha etc. were all named mAdhava (note the A), not madhva. One of these mAdhava-s is also identified with vidyAraNya, but that is questionable. madhva of the Dvaita school was a very different person. Although, Max Weber (The Religion of India, orig in German, translated into English) glibly conflates the two, and makes the doubly or triply outrageous assertion that the Christian-influenced, heterodox Vaishnava school of Dvaita gained ground because madhva was the head of the Sringeri Matha. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 1 09:40:00 2000 From: vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM (vijay shankar) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 02:40:00 -0700 Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227058225.23782.7770652170051438906.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar (2000) The Vedic People(New Delhi Orient Longman),pp44-45 discusses the niyoga practice in the context of Mahabharata. His source is PV Kane(1974)History of Dharmasastra,Vol 2,pp599-601. --- Steve Brown wrote: > friends; > > As an aspiring undergraduate indologist; i read your > discussions daily with interest (albeit often a bit > confusedly when you speak about languages). Now, i > must ask for your learned advice and assistance. I > have been Studying Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa's > character in the Mahabharata for some time now, and > as the time of my paper draws imminently near, i > have taken a bit of a new direction. I am now > curious about Vyasa's enaction of leverite to > maintain the Kuru line. so i am undertaking a > short-term (to be continued over the summer after > completion of the paper as well) quick and dirty > examination of the law of leverite. currently my > only source is Doniger's translation of The Laws of > Manu, which i have failed to find anything > discussing leverite in. so, what can you all tell > me about leverite, any english sources i can look > to, i have access to the History of the > Dharmasastra, however, i do not really have time to > scour that several thousand page text this week, > does anyone have an idea where this law may be > discussed in either of these volumes? Beyond that, > what can anyone tell me about how this law works, > who it is intended to be enacted by, the dharmic > consequences of enacting it? > > thanks much > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Stephen J Brown > University of Rochester > > " The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless > Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light..." > > -Paramahansa Yogananda > > Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all > persons equally. > "Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very > numerous and varied lifespans of > each man, every other being has at one time or > another been dear to him." > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 1 18:08:04 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 11:08:04 -0700 Subject: DSL Message-ID: <161227058241.23782.2877082211870787577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Emails ("minmaDal") and Downloadings are getting 50 times faster. Read in Tamil literary egroups ("kaNikkulAm") that "Fiber-optic DSL" can be rendered as: "oppuvar nAroLit tan2ivazi". Would appreciate the usage in Sanskrit, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From shrao at NYX.NET Mon May 1 17:22:54 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 11:22:54 -0600 Subject: SamnyAsin names In-Reply-To: <20000501052451.15079.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058232.23782.6432679912737184325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > R Zydenbos writes : > >The young Vaasudeva was named Puur.napraj;na and later > >became Aanandatiirtha (there you have another such name ending: > >-tiirtha); he finally gave himself the name 'Madhva' > > I think you've mixed up the Dvaita philosopher with the Advaita philosopher > of the same name. My reference was to the latter who is supposed to have > founded the Vijayanagar Empire and acted as its prime minister. Later he's > said to have renounced life and had become the pontiff of the Shringeri math > under the name, "VidhyAranya". His works include Panchadasi, Shankara dig > Vijaya etc. He is also considered to be the uncle of MadhvAchArya of the > Sarva Darshana Samgraha fame. Well, we've one too many Madhvas I guess! Dr. Z hasn't confounded Madhva, a.k.a. AnandatIrtha, with Madhava, a.k.a. Sayana, but you certainly appear to have, cf. your claim that they have the "same name." Regards, Shrisha Rao From vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM Mon May 1 10:41:41 2000 From: vijay0104 at YAHOO.COM (Vijay Shankar) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 11:41:41 +0100 Subject: suggestion Message-ID: <161227058228.23782.3461286245731347737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would it not be more convenient if Sankrit words were written using Roman alhabet,as now, but ignoring the diacritics? Surely the listists would know the correct pronunciation, or could ask in case of specific words. From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Mon May 1 17:31:49 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Steve Brown) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 13:31:49 -0400 Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227058237.23782.2051984004027339097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> leverite (european term) is niyoga (indian sanskrit term); the practice of a man who is not married to a particular woman having sex with her so she can have children. happens in instances of impotent or infertile husband, sick or dying husband, when needed to provide an heir to the throne (or an heir in general) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stephen J Brown University of Rochester ----- Original Message ----- From: "Palash Mazumdar" To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata > what on earth is 'leverite'?!! > > > > > >From: Steve Brown > >Reply-To: Indology > >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata > >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:26:03 -0400 > > > >friends; > > > >As an aspiring undergraduate indologist; i read your discussions daily with > >interest (albeit often a bit confusedly when you speak about languages). > >Now, i must ask for your learned advice and assistance. I have been > >Studying Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa's character in the Mahabharata for some > >time now, and as the time of my paper draws imminently near, i have taken a > >bit of a new direction. I am now curious about Vyasa's enaction of > >leverite to maintain the Kuru line. so i am undertaking a short-term (to > >be continued over the summer after completion of the paper as well) quick > >and dirty examination of the law of leverite. currently my only source is > >Doniger's translation of The Laws of Manu, which i have failed to find > >anything discussing leverite in. so, what can you all tell me about > >leverite, any english sources i can look to, i have access to the History > >of the Dharmasastra, however, i do not really have time to scour that > >several thousand page text this week, does anyone have an idea where this > >law may be discussed in either of these volumes? Beyond that, what can > >anyone tell me about how this law works, who it is intended to be enacted > >by, the dharmic consequences of enacting it? > > > >thanks much > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Stephen J Brown > >University of Rochester > > > >" The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is countless > >tissues of light..." > > > >-Paramahansa Yogananda > > > >Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. > >"Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied > >lifespans of > >each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to him." > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon May 1 13:02:55 2000 From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 14:02:55 +0100 Subject: (Fwd) Re: syAdvAda = anekAntavAda? Message-ID: <161227058230.23782.10177427381895581007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:09:52 +0200, Roland Steiner wrote: >------- Forwarded message follows ------- >Date sent: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:05:10 +0200 >From: "J. Soni" >Subject: Re: syAdvAda = anekAntavAda? > >The following articles, with suggestions for further reading, may be useful >for the question: >1. B.K. Matilal: "Anekaanta: Both Yes and No" in Nagin J. Shah (ed): JAINA >THEORY OF MULTIPLE FACETS OF REALITY AND TRUTH, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidas >pp. 1-16. >2. J. Soni: "Jaina Theory of Manifoldness" in ROUTLEDGE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF >PHILOSOPHY, 1998 sv. Manifoldness. > >------- End of forwarded message ------- In addition to these publications also note: 3. FRANK VAN DEN BOSSCHE: Jain Relativism: An Attempt at Understanding. In: Jain Studies in Honour of Jozef Deleu. Ed. by RUDY SMET and KENJI WATANABE. Tokyo 1993, 457-474. and 4. FRANK VAN DEN BOSSCHE: Existence and Non-Existence in Haribhadra SUri?s AnekAnta-Jaya-PatAkA. Journal of Indian Philosophy 23,4 (1995) 381-401. Van den Bossche distinguishes (1) anekAntavAda proper as the ontological theory of Jain relativism, (2) syAdvAda proper or saptabhaGgIvAda as the (meta-)logical aspect, "a corollary" of anekAntavAda proper and (3)nayavAda as the epistemological theory. Apart from their specific meaning the terms anekAntavAda and syAdvAda should , so van den Bossche, also serve as designation of Jain relativism in general. Himal Trikha From nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA Mon May 1 18:44:21 2000 From: nsalmond at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Noel Salmond) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 14:44:21 -0400 Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata In-Reply-To: <20000501171306.87077.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058239.23782.4667064101061900708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The spelling of the term should be Levirate, from the Latin, Levir, "Brother -in-law." In the Bible, the duty of a brother to marry and impregnate his deceased brother's widow (if she has had no son) is given in Deuteronomy 25:5-10. The vicissitudes of this injunction exhibit a very surprising outcome in Genesis 38, the story of Judah and Tamar. Noel Salmond College of the Humanities Carleton University Ottawa, Canada At 10:43 PM 5/1/00 +0530, you wrote: >what on earth is 'leverite'?!! > > >>From: Steve Brown >>Reply-To: Indology >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata >>Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:26:03 -0400 >> >>friends; >> >>As an aspiring undergraduate indologist; i read your discussions daily with >>interest (albeit often a bit confusedly when you speak about languages). >>Now, i must ask for your learned advice and assistance. I have been >>Studying Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa's character in the Mahabharata for some >>time now, and as the time of my paper draws imminently near, i have taken a >>bit of a new direction. I am now curious about Vyasa's enaction of >>leverite to maintain the Kuru line. so i am undertaking a short-term (to >>be continued over the summer after completion of the paper as well) quick >>and dirty examination of the law of leverite. currently my only source is >>Doniger's translation of The Laws of Manu, which i have failed to find >>anything discussing leverite in. so, what can you all tell me about >>leverite, any english sources i can look to, i have access to the History >>of the Dharmasastra, however, i do not really have time to scour that >>several thousand page text this week, does anyone have an idea where this >>law may be discussed in either of these volumes? Beyond that, what can >>anyone tell me about how this law works, who it is intended to be enacted >>by, the dharmic consequences of enacting it? >> >>thanks much >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Stephen J Brown >>University of Rochester >> >>" The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is countless >>tissues of light..." >> >>-Paramahansa Yogananda >> >>Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. >>"Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied >>lifespans of >>each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to him." >> > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From palashm at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 1 22:43:06 2000 From: palashm at HOTMAIL.COM (Palash Mazumdar) Date: Mon, 01 May 00 22:43:06 +0000 Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata Message-ID: <161227058235.23782.9111570457268197858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> what on earth is 'leverite'?!! >From: Steve Brown >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Leverite; Vyasa; The Mahabharata >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:26:03 -0400 > >friends; > >As an aspiring undergraduate indologist; i read your discussions daily with >interest (albeit often a bit confusedly when you speak about languages). >Now, i must ask for your learned advice and assistance. I have been >Studying Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa's character in the Mahabharata for some >time now, and as the time of my paper draws imminently near, i have taken a >bit of a new direction. I am now curious about Vyasa's enaction of >leverite to maintain the Kuru line. so i am undertaking a short-term (to >be continued over the summer after completion of the paper as well) quick >and dirty examination of the law of leverite. currently my only source is >Doniger's translation of The Laws of Manu, which i have failed to find >anything discussing leverite in. so, what can you all tell me about >leverite, any english sources i can look to, i have access to the History >of the Dharmasastra, however, i do not really have time to scour that >several thousand page text this week, does anyone have an idea where this >law may be discussed in either of these volumes? Beyond that, what can >anyone tell me about how this law works, who it is intended to be enacted >by, the dharmic consequences of enacting it? > >thanks much >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Stephen J Brown >University of Rochester > >" The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is countless >tissues of light..." > >-Paramahansa Yogananda > >Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. >"Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied >lifespans of >each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to him." > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 2 13:59:24 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 02 May 00 06:59:24 -0700 Subject: SamnyAsin names Message-ID: <161227058249.23782.7893280803192204241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dr. Z hasn't confounded Madhva, a.k.a. AnandatIrtha, with Madhava, > >a.k.a.Sayana, but you certainly appear to have, cf. your claim that >they >have the "same name." Yup, my fault entirely. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 2 08:38:26 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 May 00 09:38:26 +0100 Subject: Vaitarini (from LS Cousins) Message-ID: <161227058243.23782.5870819665626271442.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "L.S.Cousins" Subject: Re: Vaitarini Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Michael Witzel adds: >As so often, I find myself agreeing 100% with Y. Vassilkov, and would just >like to point to a similar case, published quite a while ago: > >Salomon, Richard. The Three Cursed Rivers of the East, and their >Significance for the Historical Geography of Ancient India. Adyar Library >Bulletin 42, 1978, 31-60 > >where the Sadaaniiraa (in Satapatha Brahm. ) ~~ mod.Gandak(ii), >the later Karmanaazaa (s. of Ganges, W. border of Magadha /S. Bihar >play similar roles as 'cultural boundaries'. To this can also be added: Diigha-nikaaya I 52 where the view is there attributed to Puura.na Kassapa that there is no paapa in performing various kinds of wrong action: "if one should come to the south bank of the Ganges, slaying etc." Or, "if one should go to the north bank of the Ganges giving, causing to give, sacrificing, causing to sacrifice etc." The same passage recurs (not attributed to a named individual or school) a number of times in the Majjhima-nikaaya and Sa.myutta-nikaaya. L.S. Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: selwyn at ntlworld.com From kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA Tue May 2 08:48:28 2000 From: kumar at PIXIE.UDW.AC.ZA (Prof. P. Kumar) Date: Tue, 02 May 00 10:48:28 +0200 Subject: New Indology List Message-ID: <161227058245.23782.12457106154922659847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> reply Prof. P. Kumar, Centre for Religious Studies, University of Durban-Westville Private BagX54001, Durban, 4000 South Africa, Tel: 027-31-204-4539 (work), Fax: 027-31-204-4160 (work) Email: kumar at pixie.udw.ac.za Director of the 18th Quinquennial Congress of the IAHR Durban- August 5-12 2000 For more info on the Congress please see: http://www.udw.ac.za/iahr *IMPORTANT NOTICE: THOSE COMING TO THE IAHR:DURBAN PLEASE READ THIS* Delegates to the IAHR Durban congress can now deposit the congress related fees in to the following bank account directly. Although we still accept checks and credit card modes of payment, in order to lessen the administrative and other delays in transacting those payments, the secretariat will prefer payments directly into the Bank account given below and send us the deposit slip either by fax or ordinary mail. Name of Account: IAHR: Durban 2000 Name of Bank: First National Bank, South Africa Branch Name : Durban North, Broadway Branch Branch Code: 220426 Account No: 62010873017 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 2 12:57:13 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 02 May 00 13:57:13 +0100 Subject: SOAS Post Doctoral Fellowships (fwd) Message-ID: <161227058247.23782.5264428600972788000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:51:35 +0100 From: Ulrich Pagel SOAS Post Doctoral Fellowships The School of Oriental and African Studies has decided to fund three new 'Millennium' Post-Doctoral Research Fellowships in Oriental Studies. These will be for two years each, starting from October this year: average salary will be around ?18,000. The fellowships will be advertised in the press (The Guardian, Times Higher Education Supplement) within the next two weeks (prbably in the week commencing 8th May) and details will shortly be available from the School's Personnel Office (0044 207 898 4144). The closing date has yet to be fixed but will be around the middle of June, and shortlisted candidates will be interviewed. The aim is to attract post-doctoral fellows with a good record of research and publications: they will be available for some teaching. I thought you might like to know about this in case you know of any eligible candidates, who should be advised to watch out for the forthcoming advertisements or who might want to make an application. _________________________ Dr. Ulrich Pagel Language and Religion in Tibet and Middle Asia Department of the Study of Religions School of Oriental and African Studies Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London WC1H 0XG Great Britain tel: 0044 020 78 98 47 82 tel: 0044 020 77 13 07 23 (home) fax: 0044 020 78 98 47 79 e.mail: up1 at soas.ac.uk http://www.soas.ac.uk/Religions/home.html From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue May 2 20:20:10 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Tue, 02 May 00 16:20:10 -0400 Subject: Abhisamacarika Buddhist vinaya text available Message-ID: <161227058253.23782.9410217984401268239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those interested in Buddhist texts / Skt texts may notice a new web site at which one can find the text of the Abhisamacarika, a vinaya text. Tibetan fonts are also downloadable from this page. go to : http://www.sobutsu.org/ then "Information" then "Digital Library" don't be freaked out that most parts of the site are in Japanese--the texts are romanized. There is also a chart of the script of the ms available there. I downloaded the material without any problem. Provided to us through the great generosity of Koshin SUZUKI and others on the team. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Tue May 2 23:54:35 2000 From: fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Barbara Schuler) Date: Tue, 02 May 00 16:54:35 -0700 Subject: Lectureship in Hindi, University of Hamburg Message-ID: <161227058251.23782.8379469647040523203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lectureship in Hindi Applications are invited for a Lectureship in Hindi, beginning from 1 October 2000, due to the retirement of Dr. Bahadur Singh. It is a permanent position. Before officially taking up the post, the appointed person has to pass a probation period of six months. Ph.D. degree in Hindi language or literature is required. Experience in teaching Hindi to non- Indian students and knowledge of other new Indian languages are most desirable. Candidates with German language skills and the willingness eventually to teach in German are encouraged to apply. The appointee will be required to teach Hindi from the basic to the advanced level of the program. The courses to be taught involve regular elementary language tuition and readings in modern Hindi literature, both prose and poetry. Therefore, a profound knowledge of developments in Hindi literature as well as skills in text analysis are expected. A course in a second new Indian language (preferably Punjabi, Bengali and/or Tamil) is desirable. Teaching obligations are 12 hours a week during the semester. The appointee will also be expected to cooperate and assist in various research projects of the institute. Applications, including CV and list of publications, should be sent until 25 May 2000 to: Prof M. Friedrich Dean, Oriental Studies Rothenbaumchaussee 67/69, 20148 Hamburg, Germany. Further details may be obtained from: Institute for India and Tibet Neue Rabenstr. 3 20354 Hamburg, Germany. tel. +49-40-42838-3385 fax +49-40-42838-6944 or, via email, from Prof. T. Oranskaia fo8a014 at rrz.uni-hamburg From Eric.Robert at UM.BE Wed May 3 06:48:43 2000 From: Eric.Robert at UM.BE (Robert, Eric) Date: Wed, 03 May 00 08:48:43 +0200 Subject: purANa in chAndogyopanishad? Message-ID: <161227058255.23782.18362537664110648548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members In chAndogya upanishad 3.4.1&2, one finds mention of itihAsa and purANa (e.g. in 3.4.1...the flower being the itihAsa and the purANa, which are also the immortal waters). A similar mention occurs in 7.1.2. The chAndogya being one of the oldest upanishad, are these passages a later addition, or do itihAsa and purANa have another meaning here than their normal meaning (the date for the composition or elaboration of the epics seems subject to discussion, but I think that early purANas are dated from the beginning of this era, or am I wrong?). Thanks for your comments Eric Robert From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO Wed May 3 08:22:02 2000 From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson) Date: Wed, 03 May 00 09:22:02 +0100 Subject: purANa in chAndogyopanishad? In-Reply-To: <390AC379FFD2D21193130008C70D3538D3682E@irene.um.be> Message-ID: <161227058257.23782.6939874662022696591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Eric Robert wrote: > >In chAndogya upanishad 3.4.1&2, one finds mention of itihAsa and purANa >(e.g. in 3.4.1...the flower being the itihAsa and the purANa, which are also >the immortal waters). >A similar mention occurs in 7.1.2. >The chAndogya being one of the oldest upanishad, are these passages a later >addition, or do itihAsa and purANa have another meaning here than their >normal meaning (the date for the composition or elaboration of the epics >seems subject to discussion, but I think that early purANas are dated from >the beginning of this era, or am I wrong?). > There seems to have been an itihAsa-purANa tradition much older than the texts that are handed down to us. See Paul Horsch, Die vedische gAthA- and zloka-Literatur, Bern 1966. This book contains a chapter about the terms itihAsa and purANa in Vedic literature. G.v.Simson From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 3 10:25:05 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 03 May 00 11:25:05 +0100 Subject: [Q] sarve bhavantu ... Message-ID: <161227058262.23782.4723211188222951216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been asked to identify the following verse (modulus corrections): Sarve Bhavanthu Sukhina: Sarve Santhu Niramaya Sarve Bhadrani Pasyanthu Ma Kaschith Dukhabhang Bhaveth Does anyone recognise it? Many thanks, Dominik From amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu May 4 14:52:31 2000 From: amp65 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Andrea Marion Pinkney) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 10:52:31 -0400 Subject: UNC Hindi-Urdu (fwd) Message-ID: <161227058270.23782.11732456843365613845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:20:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Niklaus Steiner To: Andrea Marion Pinkney Subject: Re: UNC Hindi-Urdu Summer Intensive Hindi-Urdu University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Hindi-Urdu 101 (no prerequisite): May 23 ? June 27 (Summer Session I) Hindi-Urdu 102: June 29 ? August 4 (Summer Session II) Aimed at beginners in Hindi-Urdu, this course will cover the material for first- year Hindi-Urdu in two separate five-week sessions. Foundations of grammar, listening comprehension, common idioms and conversation will be supplemented with various audio-visual materials including films, music, comic books and magazines, accordingly gradated to match the grammatical progress of the students. For those with some background in Hindi, this course will also provide an excellent grammatical review and an opportunity to develop strong writing skills in Hindi-Urdu. The course will be taught by Andrea Pinkney, currently in the Ph.D. program in Religion at Columbia University. During 1995-1998, Ms. Pinkney lived in Varanasi, U.P and Pune, Maharashtra studying Sanskrit, Hindi and Urdu, in addition to conducting M.A. fieldwork on Sikh pilgrimage sites in Punjab, H.P. and U.P. In 1998, Ms. Pinkney completed a three year program in Hindi-Urdu from Banaras Hindu University, obtaining an Advanced Diploma in Hindi-Urdu. Although the two courses are meant to be taken in sequence, special arrangement may be made with the instructor to accommodate those interested in joining SSII in mid-stream. For further course information, please contact the instructor: amp65 at columbia.edu For registration information, please contact: Patricia Maroney, Departmental Administrator, Curriculum in Asian Studies, pmaroney at email.unc.edu, (919) 962-4294 From emmerick at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu May 4 10:25:27 2000 From: emmerick at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ronald E. Emmerick) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 12:25:27 +0200 Subject: Hoernle Message-ID: <161227058265.23782.7042163944402344467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone refer me to a photograph of Augustus Frederic Rudolf Hoernle (1814-1918)? There was an obituary by G.A. Grierson in JRAS 1919, 119-124 but no photograph. From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Thu May 4 16:39:08 2000 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 12:39:08 -0400 Subject: Abhisamacarika Buddhist vinaya text available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058276.23782.12790207766420796795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone out there refer me to sources of information about this text? (Where was it found? Are there any published studies on this text?). Thanks in advance. Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 Ph#: (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Jonathan > Silk > Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 4:20 PM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Abhisamacarika Buddhist vinaya text available > > > Those interested in Buddhist texts / Skt texts may notice a new web > site at which one can find the text of the Abhisamacarika, a vinaya > text. Tibetan fonts are also downloadable from this page. > > go to : http://www.sobutsu.org/ then "Information" then > "Digital Library" > > don't be freaked out that most parts of the site are in Japanese--the > texts are romanized. There is also a chart of the script of the ms > available there. I downloaded the material without any problem. > > Provided to us through the great generosity of Koshin SUZUKI and > others on the team. > > > Jonathan Silk > > jonathan.silk at yale.edu > > Dept. of Religious Studies > Yale University > 320 Temple St. > New Haven CT 06520-8287 > USA > > tel. 203-432-0828 > fax. 203-432-7844 > From fo5a006 at UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu May 4 12:22:30 2000 From: fo5a006 at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Anne MacDonald) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 14:22:30 +0200 Subject: NGMPP microfilm information Message-ID: <161227058268.23782.15948853642007219683.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Members of the List, Please note that the staff of the Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project at the University of Hamburg responsible for supplying information regarding filmed manuscripts, microfilm reel-numbers, and the ordering of microfilms has changed. All inquiries concerning Sanskrit, Newari, etc. manuscripts and their microfilms should be directed to Michael Zimmermann at: fo0a002 at uni-hamburg.de All inquiries concerning Tibetan manuscripts and their microfilms should be directed to Orna Almogi at: orna_almogi at public.uni-hamburg.de Snail-mail address: Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Neue Rabenstrasse 3 20354 Hamburg, Germany Regards, Anne MacDonald (no longer with the NGMPP) From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Thu May 4 20:47:33 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 16:47:33 -0400 Subject: Hoernle In-Reply-To: <39115017.405CA96D@uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227058279.23782.12330080249390069981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anyone refer me to a photograph of Augustus Frederic Rudolf Hoernle >(1814-1918)? >There was an obituary by G.A. Grierson in JRAS 1919, 119-124 but no >photograph. perhaps in Bilder Hundert Deutsche Indologen? Or the English book by Stache-Rosen? Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu May 4 15:45:08 2000 From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (jan) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 17:45:08 +0200 Subject: OCR In-Reply-To: <20000429014924.503.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058273.23782.3826928378458493679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear LISTeners, as far as i know, they?re working on a bengali-plugin for finereader 5 (soon availiable). maybe they will reply on email, found them interested in discussing new features. Omnipage is definitely not the ocr for nonroman scripts. greetings jan seifert btw: finereader 5.x will be avail. for macintosh too. From mlbd at VSNL.COM Thu May 4 12:46:42 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass Publishers) Date: Thu, 04 May 00 18:16:42 +0530 Subject: Vedic Maths on TV Message-ID: <161227058282.23782.7048200996298789433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > On Sunday May 7th the Doordarshan will telecast a panel disussion on > Vedic Maths at 3.30 p.m(1530 hrs) on DD I ( National Channel) all across > the country and it is expected that it should attract wide viewership > response. > > Do let me have your feedback after looking at the programme. > Warmest regards, > R.P.Jain > -- > Motilal Banarsidass > 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar, > Delhi-110007, India > Tel: (011)-3974826,3918335,3911985,3932747 > (011)-5795180,5793423,5792734 > Fax: (011)-3930689,5797221 > Email: mlbd at vsnl.com,gloryindia at poboxes.com > Website: www.mlbdbooks.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 1660 URL: From jage at LOC.GOV Fri May 5 12:52:56 2000 From: jage at LOC.GOV (James E. Agenbroad) Date: Fri, 05 May 00 08:52:56 -0400 Subject: Hoernle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058291.23782.437340370902424839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 May 2000, Jonathan Silk wrote: > >Can anyone refer me to a photograph of Augustus Frederic Rudolf Hoernle > >(1814-1918)? > >There was an obituary by G.A. Grierson in JRAS 1919, 119-124 but no > >photograph. > > perhaps in Bilder Hundert Deutsche Indologen? Or the English book by > Stache-Rosen? > > > > Jonathan Silk > Friday, May 5, 2000 Hoernle is not in the 2d edition with 135 Bilder. Regards, Jim Agenbroad ( jage at LOC.gov ) The above are purely personal opinions, not necessarily the official views of any government or any agency of any. Phone: 202 707-9612; Fax: 202 707-0955; US mail: I.T.S. Dev.Gp.4, Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave. SE, Washington, D.C. 20540-9334 U.S.A. From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Fri May 5 09:11:21 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Fri, 05 May 00 10:11:21 +0100 Subject: Abhisamacarika Buddhist vinaya text available In-Reply-To: <000201bfb5e7$4481e6e0$a391fea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <161227058286.23782.14318520202981860933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 4 May 2000, Joseph Walser wrote: [Re: Abhisamacarika] > Could anyone out there refer me to sources of information about this text? > (Where was it found? Are there any published studies on this text?). The "older" literature can be found in Akira Yuyama's _A systematic survey of Buddhist Sanskrit literature_. Part 1: Vinaya-Texte. Wiesbaden: Steiner, 1979, p. 41, No. 1.67.S.2. A newer study/monograph in English is: Maulichand Prasad: _A comparative study of Abhisamacarika_. Patna: K. P. Jayaswal Research Inst., 1984 (Tibetan Sanskrit Work Ser. No. 26). I don't know if there are newer Japanese publications on this text. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From ersand at HUM.KU.DK Fri May 5 11:48:53 2000 From: ersand at HUM.KU.DK (Erik Sand) Date: Fri, 05 May 00 11:48:53 +0000 Subject: Publications on law Message-ID: <161227058289.23782.7797010822011489920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Can anybody recommend a fast and reliable source for government publications on law. I am especially looking for laws and acts with regard to temples and religious endowments, and especially in Maharashtra, but also, of course, on Central Government level? Yours Erik Reenberg Sand University of Copenhagen From mlbd at VSNL.COM Fri May 5 11:16:42 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Fri, 05 May 00 16:46:42 +0530 Subject: HINAs Message-ID: <161227062640.23782.18076855104992993301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr Rajesh Kocher, Hope you must have already rcvd copy of my e-mail to Mr Kharbanda regarding Vedic Maths & Mr Kharbanda also mentioned about your interest in the subject esp. Vedic. I'd strongly urge upon you to consider possibilities of organising Vedic Maths Workshops in NISTADS & let me know your feedback. Looking forward to hear from you. Regards R P Jain -------------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, U.A. Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011) 3974826, 3918335, 3911985, 3932747 (011) 5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax:(011) 3930689, 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com , mail at mlbd.com Website: www.mlbd.com , www.newagebooksindia.com ***************************************************************** God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ***************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: Rajesh Kochhar To: Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 4:59 PM Subject: HINAs Is there any study on the endeavours by the Hindus In North America to preserve their cultural identity and preserve their gene pool? rajesh kochhar From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri May 5 19:18:53 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 05 May 00 22:18:53 +0300 Subject: Indological Conference Message-ID: <161227058294.23782.3027410507566607833.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, here is the programm of an Indological Conference held recently in St.-Petersburg, Russia. I hope it will give you an idea of what goes on in the field of Indology in this part of the world. Best wishes to all, Yaroslav Vassilkov XXIst ZOGRAPH CONFERENCE "TRADITIONAL INDIAN TEXTS: PROBLEMS OF INTERPRETATION" St Petersburg, April 24-26, 2000 Venue: Dvortsovaya nab., 18, Institute of Oriental Studies (Novomikhailovsky Palace), the Green Hall. April 24, 2000. Monday 11.00 Conference Opening. Address of the Guest of Honour: Rajiv Chander, Consul General of India at St.-Petersburg. Mikhail N. BOGOLYUBOV (SPb State University). Avestan *dUtANho* (Y.32,1), *dUtIm* (Y.32,13) and Anc.Ind. *duvas* 'worship'. Tatiana Ya.ELIZARENKOVA (Institute of Oriental Studies, Moscow). On the words for *river* in the Rgveda. Nikita V.GUROV (SPb State University). On the subsrtatum heritage in the vocabulary of the Rgveda (in connection with recent works by F.B.J.Kuiper and M.Witzel). Vytis VIDUNAS (Vilnius University, Lithuania). PratizAkhya of the Rgveda: Analysis of the Structure. Sergei S. TAWASTSTJERNA (SPb State University). Nighantu and Nirukta: some problems of the interpretation. April 24, 2000. Monday. 15.00 Yaroslav V.VASSILKOV (Institute of Oriental Studies, St.-Petersburg). AnugItA and BhagavadgItA: on the nature of differences. Alexander M.DUBYANSKY (Moscow State University). On Tamil anthologies and principles of their compilation. Julia G.KOKOVA (SPb State University). The BhAgavata-purANa on the acquisition of the *bhAgavata-dharma*. April 25, 2000. Tuesday. 11.00 Margarita F.AlLBEDIL (Institute of Ethnology, St.-Petersburg). The Hindu "chronotopos" and its mythological foundations. Valdas JASKUNAS (Vilnius University, Lithuania). Dynamics of the concept of *viraha* in GItagovinda and in the Gaudiya-VaiSNavism. Svetlana O. TSVETKOVA (SPb State University). *AnuprAsa* and *yamaka* in Riti theory or poetry. Gyuzel' V. STRELKOVA (Moscow State University). A modern interpretation of a classical story ("HastinApura" - the play by Nandi Kishor Acharya). Nadezhda V.KAPUSTINA. (St.-Petersburg). On some translations of the IzopaniSad. April 25, 2000. Tuesday. 15.00 Viktoria G.LYSSENKO (Institute of Philosophy, Moscow). The wind (vAyu) in the worldview of the vaizeSikas. Andrei A.TERENTYEV (St.Petersburg). The meaning of *svabhAva* in the context of the *prasangika* doctrine. Sergei PAKHOMOV (SPb State University). Hermeneutics of KSemarAja. Boris I. ZAGUMENNOV (St.Petersburg). On the translations of BodhipathapradIpa" by AtIza. April 26, 2000. Wednesday. 11.00. Audrius BEINORIUS (Vilnius University, Lithuania). Interpretation of Alaya-vijnAna in the YogAcAra works of Vasubandhu. Andrei PARIBOK (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). Parallels in methodology of VyAkaraNa and Abhidharma. Raisa N. KRAPIVINA (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). The introductory zloka of the 4th chapter of AbhisamayAlaMkAra with a commentary. Nadezhda V. KHOMUTINNIKOVA (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). The activity of a boddhisattva (according to the 1st chapter of AbhisamayAlaMkAra). April 26, 2000. Wednesday. 15.00 Tamara P. SELIVANOVA (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies).. The feudal concept of honour in mediaeval Kasmir. Grigory L. SEMYONOV (Hermitage Museum). Kubera in Central Asia. Yaroslav V. VASSILKOV (SPb Institute of Oriental Studies). In addition to G.L.Semyonov's paper: Indian inscription on a seal with the image of Kubera from Khotan. --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Fri, 05 May 2000 21:57 +0300 MSK From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Fri May 5 21:14:31 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Fri, 05 May 00 23:14:31 +0200 Subject: Q: Basic text on philosophy of religion Message-ID: <161227058297.23782.6908273419329265520.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, I thank all of you who sent their ideas. I am now trying to find the books suggested and see which comes closest to our need here. Ferenc From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 6 13:47:52 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 06 May 00 09:47:52 -0400 Subject: purANa in chAndogyopanishad? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058300.23782.4501943650064746667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>In chAndogya upanishad 3.4.1&2, one finds mention of itihAsa and purANa >There seems to have been an itihAsa-purANa tradition much older than the >texts that are handed down to us. See Paul Horsch... >G.v.Simson In this connection: some years ago I read in some late Vedic text (Sutra?) a passage quoting the beginning of "the Purana": Manur vai raajaassiid... making Manu not only our ancestor but also the first king (of himself & his family...) But, I failed to take a note, and cannot find the pasage now in any of the available indices. (Vishva Bandhu's Sutra index is not complete). Has anyone seen this? Or am I dreaming? Any hint would be greatly appreciated. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From varma2 at VSNL.COM Sun May 7 03:03:43 2000 From: varma2 at VSNL.COM (Varma) Date: Sun, 07 May 00 08:03:43 +0500 Subject: History of Hindi 'to' Message-ID: <161227058303.23782.12779137257427138879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am researching the conjunction/discourse marker 'to' in modern Hindi and would like to have a feel for the historical background.I have been unable to find much help so far. Does anyone out there have any suggestions? Does 'to' descend from Sanskrit 'tatas' or 'tavas' or rather 'tu'? Does it have more than one root? Is the saying true that 'tu' was often used to satisfy metrical requirements in verse? Any ideas? Terry Varma From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sun May 7 19:06:05 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sun, 07 May 00 12:06:05 -0700 Subject: SamnyAsin names Message-ID: <161227058308.23782.805813179367174446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > Of course, one man's saint often is another man's > bigot. !? > Both zaiva and > vaiSNava saints belong in this category. It is not clear what Dr SP wants to say here. I think one needs to take into account qualitative and quantitative indicators of bigotry in the case of Campantar, the original topic of discussion. "The hymns of Campantar are generally made up of eleven verses, the first seven given over to a description of the site and to the eulogizing of ziva, the eighth to the episode in which rAvaNa attempts to lift KailAza, the ninth to the legend of lingodbhavamUrti, the tenth is invective directed against Buddhist and Jain heresy". (from Tevaram, F Gros, Introduction, p lxiv) Of the 383 hymns of Campantar in the Tevaram, that makes it a cool 380 odd verses of invective against the Jainas. (Wonder if the recently discovered tiruviTaivAy hymn attributed to Campantar has the same structure. Does anybody have the text of this hymn or of the one found in palmleaf MS in 1932?) Qualitatively too, Campantar's verses seem to lack the devotional poet's preoccupation with dwelling on his own internal state. The religiosity of a devotional verse may be understood using the following analytical framework developed by KVZ in his "Smile of Murugan": "S1- the interior state of the subject of the cult; S2- the external actions of the subject of the cult O1- the responsive reaction of the object of the cult in relation to the subject O2- the state, qualities or actions of the object of the cult" etc (p. 199) It is interesting to see what KVZ says of Campantar's hymns ... "... there is in his songs a definite predominance of the segment O2. The content of S2 is mostly Campantar's struggle with the Jainas. On the other hand, the intimate lyrical part of religious experience is relatively weakly developed in his work". (p. 202) On the other hand, "in contrast to Campantar, the poems by Appar are almost exclusively emotional. ... There, apart from O2, which is also strongly developed in Appar's poetry, there is a strong element of S1 and S2." (ibid.) It may be instructive in this regard to compare the tone of viTam tIrtta patikam by Appar and the poompAvai patikam by Campantar where the context is roughly similar ... bringing a dead person back to life ... in both cases snake bite victims. (Perhaps a typical test case presented in those days to would be miracle workers.) Suffice it to say that, whereas Appar dwells at length on the various physical attributes of civan in very line of the patikam; a patikam that is btw characterised by repetition of numbers from one to ten as if in a nursery rhyme and also by delightfully ordinary language whereas Campantar dwells largely on the festivals of the civan temple of KapAliccaram and a patikam where he fails to eschew anti Jaina invective. It is clear that whereas Appar wants to raise the dead by the power of Civan, Campantar wants to achieve the same effect (for supposedly his virgin bride) by the temporal power of the grandeur of the temple festivals. At the same time, "one of the diagnostic features of his (Campantar's) poetry is also his preoccupation with Ziva's abodes". (ibid.) About 278 hymns "deal with deities of shrines. The cult of pilgrimages to holy places belongs uniquely to Campantar." (J Parthasarathi, Ency of Tamil Lit., v. 1, p. 307). In fact, "the repetition, without intermission, of practically the same details of Civan's form and the same puranic stories, found in Campantar's large body of verses, goes to the limit of boredom, taxing the patience of a reader". (ibid., p 308) With the above analysis, the following features of Campantar's poetry stand out: 1. Conscious provision of a slot in the rhetorical structure of his works for anti Jaina invective 2. Lack of emotionalism in his verses. The phrase " en uLLAm kavar kaLvan" in 1.1.1 stands out as an exception. Perhaps the poet having made a token acknowledgement of the love theme seems to more or less avoid it for the rest of this large body of work as if to say that's not the point. Hence the very small number of akattuRai verses, I suppose 3. Exceptional preoccupation with Civan's abodes. The structural incorporation of bigotry, I suppose, is not purposeless; it has a fundamental role in a proselytizing religion viz., that of getting mind share of the kings of the time. The preoccupation with Civan's abodes may be viewed in relation to the fact that 1) the temple was the focus of men and resources of the Tamil society of that time and 2) the articulation of a concept of kingship in the context of the close parallel between the god in the temple and the king in his palace (cf the pATAN tuRai of puram poetics). In this context, it may be worthwhile to bear in mind the close connections between the First Three (mUvar) saints of Tamil caivism and contemporary kings. This proximity to the kings of the time is a hallmark of Tamil caivism viz., from the chief compiler (nampi) and the chief hagiographer (cEkkizAr), to the chief patrons viz., the Imperial Cholas. The proximity to the kings of the time can also be viewed in the context of a cult relatively new to the Tamil country (comparatively sparse notices to civan in the oldest Tamil texts) and a rather late exegetical tradition (mostly post Imperial Chola). So bigotry, for want of a more acceptable term, imho had its uses. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Sun May 7 03:19:15 2000 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Sun, 07 May 00 13:19:15 +1000 Subject: History of Hindi 'to' Message-ID: <161227058305.23782.17225116062488837312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to MacGregor (The Oxford Hindi-English dictionary, sv.) the origin from Sanskrit tatas is doubtful, and Hindi "to" may have an ancestor in Sanskrit tAvat. However, the entry in Turner's Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages for tatas (paragraph 5639) seems more supportive than that for tAvat (parag. 5804) (you may be able to hunt up more discussion from the articles Turner cites). The Apabhramsa-Hindi dictionary of Naresh Kumar (1987) lists under "to" the Hindi meanings: usa ke bAd and taba, bhI and provides citations from two Apabhramsa works (KIrtilatA (1,2,8) and the Paumacariu (1, 3, 9)). He thinks "to" is from Sanskrit tatas + api, which seems a bit off the mark. An interesting Jain Sauraseni usage is "jahA .... to ... " in conditional sentences (eg. KArtikayAnuprek.SA, 29). You will need to explore the linguistic literature on "Old Hindi" (ie. Old Western Rajasthani etc. or whatever you want to call those languages), rather than attempt to jump straight back to Sanskrit from modern Hindi without intervening stages. There can certainly be other influences in Hindi than Sanskrit. >I am researching the conjunction/discourse marker 'to' in modern Hindi and >would like to have a feel for the historical background.I have been unable >to find much help so far. Does anyone out there have any suggestions? Does >'to' descend from Sanskrit 'tatas' or 'tavas' or rather 'tu'? Does it have >more than one root? Is the saying true that 'tu' was often used to satisfy >metrical requirements in verse? Any ideas? > Terry Varma From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Mon May 8 00:18:52 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sun, 07 May 00 17:18:52 -0700 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058310.23782.10588745200176119999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could any of the list members kindly help me out to precisely identify the apparent Mahayanic Buddhist Goddess sculpture, and to transcribe and translate its very short stone-hewn Sanskrit inscription? I intend to use the photo in an upcoming publication. Up to now no one has been able to make heads or tails of the inscription. I have uploaded the photographic reproduction (JEPG format) for easy access. http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troyoga Best regards Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Mon May 8 03:58:42 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Sun, 07 May 00 23:58:42 -0400 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058313.23782.1093263586857487122.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Iconographically, it appears to be Taaraa. It is possible that this is what the first two letters on the right say, but I don't know what the following "vii" or "kii" would mean. Where did the photo come from? Does it say where the statue itself is from? Dante ----- Original Message ----- From: Ven. Tantra To: Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 8:18 PM Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification > Could any of the list members kindly help me out to > precisely identify the apparent Mahayanic Buddhist > Goddess sculpture, and to transcribe and translate its > very short stone-hewn Sanskrit inscription? I intend > to use the photo in an upcoming publication. Up to now > no one has been able to make heads or tails of the > inscription. I have uploaded the photographic > reproduction (JEPG format) for easy access. > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troyoga > > Best regards > > Ven. Tantra > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From dbgray62 at HOME.COM Mon May 8 04:48:07 2000 From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY) Date: Mon, 08 May 00 00:48:07 -0400 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058315.23782.3570768540970004703.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The goddess appears to be mAmakI, a goddess who is the consort of the Buddha Aksobhya in a number of Tantras such as the Hevajra; the word on the right is in fact her name. David Gray "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > > Could any of the list members kindly help me out to > precisely identify the apparent Mahayanic Buddhist > Goddess sculpture, and to transcribe and translate its > very short stone-hewn Sanskrit inscription? I intend > to use the photo in an upcoming publication. Up to now > no one has been able to make heads or tails of the > inscription. I have uploaded the photographic > reproduction (JEPG format) for easy access. > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/troyoga > > Best regards > > Ven. Tantra > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon May 8 18:01:16 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 08 May 00 11:01:16 -0700 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058319.23782.13952083318555442319.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is the goddess statue from Indonesia? --- DAVID GRAY wrote: > The goddess appears to be mAmakI, a goddess who is the consort of the > Buddha Aksobhya in a number of Tantras such as the Hevajra; the word on > the right is in fact her name. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Mon May 8 19:35:57 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Mon, 08 May 00 15:35:57 -0400 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058322.23782.6567926672102470809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Hodge > The Maha-vairocana-tantra mentions that she holds a three-pronged > vajra in her hand as her cihna. There does not seem to be one visible > in the photo -- but there might have been something originally in her > left hand that has been lost. Pity because it might have helped > precise identification and help with dating. Her left hand is in vitarka mudra, and it >is< holding something: the stem of the lotus. The right hand in varada. Thats why it looks like Taaraa to me. Dante From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon May 8 17:21:14 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 08 May 00 18:21:14 +0100 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058317.23782.7954338172334136488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The goddess appears to be mAmakI, a goddess who is the consort of the > Buddha Aksobhya in a number of Tantras such as the Hevajra; the word on > the right is in fact her name. I agree about the identification but would just like to add that Mamaki was not always associated with Aksobhya. She is probably one of the dozens of Buddhist goddesses who had independent origins and were later incorporated in Buddhist tantric ritual and iconography. In the earlier tantras (kriyaa & caryaa) she is still features more as a "stand-alone" goddess although she is also mentioned as the consort of Vajrapani and not Aksobhya (the Tathagatas not having consorts at this stage). The Maha-vairocana-tantra mentions that she holds a three-pronged vajra in her hand as her cihna. There does not seem to be one visible in the photo -- but there might have been something originally in her left hand that has been lost. Pity because it might have helped precise identification and help with dating. What is the provenance of this piece ? Looks similar to material found in Orissa, not that that means anything. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 9 00:57:21 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 08 May 00 20:57:21 -0400 Subject: rudram in hiranyakesin zrautasUtra Message-ID: <161227058324.23782.9632202573211688336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, 1) A vedic priest of the taittirIya saMhitA from Maharashtra has told me that the rudram he recites is not only in the taittirIya saMhitA but is also quoted in the satyASADha hiraNyakezin zrautasUtra. Can someone give me the exact reference of where in the hiraNyakezin zrautasUtra the Rudram is quoted? 2) Is the Rudram quoted there in its entirety, or only with the commencing words of the verses? M. Winternitz in "History of Indian Literature" vol. 1, page 276 says for the zrautasUtras of the Black Yajur Veda. "...the zrauta and gRhyasUtras of the Black Yajurveda, give the prayers in the form which they assume in the saMhitAs of the Black Yajurveda; and they give only the first words of the verses or Yajus-formulas...". 3) Is the Rudram quoted in any of the other zrautasUtras of the Yajur Veda (black or white)? If so can someone give me the references? 4) Do the different zrautasUtras of the taittirIya saMhitA, the apastamba, baudhAyana, bhAradvAja, and hiraNyakezin each define a different sub-school with minor or major differences in the performance of vedic ritual or is it the case that a vedic priest of the taittirIya saMhita who was familiar with the hiraNyakezin zrautasUtras would also be familiar with other zrautasUtras of the taittirIya saMhitA for the performance of his priestly duties? Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Tue May 9 11:07:20 2000 From: gvvajrac at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Gautama Vajracharya) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 05:07:20 -0600 Subject: Five-faced lion? In-Reply-To: <20000509144444.26584.qmail@web1406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227058359.23782.8990876273062670423.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Jan, When a lion roars four directions echo. The four directions were considered the lion's additional mouths (mukha). The artistic representation of kirtimukha is also associated with this concept. Regarding kirtimukha you may like to check my recent article on Ashokan pillars published in MARG December 1999. Gautama V. Vajracharya At 07:44 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone have any idea how the lion came to be known as >paJca-mukha? > >Jan > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com/ From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Tue May 9 14:44:44 2000 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 07:44:44 -0700 Subject: Five-faced lion? Message-ID: <161227058339.23782.11410712152503505024.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Anyone have any idea how the lion came to be known as paJca-mukha? Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU Tue May 9 14:20:43 2000 From: bthorp at PLAINS.NODAK.EDU (Burt Thorp) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 09:20:43 -0500 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058336.23782.12277770932190967952.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If any repetitive speech or movement links right brain-left brain, then the thumping rhythms of rap or mosh dancing must be healthful for our youth--good news for us parents! > >According to this, the trick is that any "mantra" works, whether it is "oM >"or "namo buddhaaya" or "hail Mary" or "Allahu Akbar", or just *any* old >syllable or word such as "one", "bad", or whatever. It is the repetition >that does it. Same with repetition of movements (Dervish dances etc. etc.). >Old human method. From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue May 9 07:27:02 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 09:27:02 +0200 Subject: rudram in hiranyakesin zrautasUtra Message-ID: <161227058330.23782.15562559420999384512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I assume your priest meant by 'rudram' what is also known as the ;Satarudriya-litany. On this litany, see the brief note (p. 329) in Gonda's "Vedic Literature: Samhitas and Brahmanas", but especially the article which Gonda devoted to the litany, pp. 75-91 of "Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Essays in Honor of D.H.H. Ingalls" (Dordrecht 1980) [= J. Gonda, Selected Studies, Vol. VI, part 1, 526ff.]. > 1) A vedic priest of the taittirIya saMhitA from Maharashtra has told me > that the rudram he recites is not only in the taittirIya saMhitA but is also > quoted in the satyASADha hiraNyakezin zrautasUtra. Can someone give me the > exact reference of where in the hiraNyakezin zrautasUtra the Rudram is > quoted? Your priest seems to have been entirely on the mark. In Gonda's article, p. 77, I read: "The whole text or the first and last sections of it occur at H[ira.nyake;si]G[.rhya]S[uutra] 2,8,11 in a description of the spit-ox sacrifice...". Now, the HirGS is actually just part of the entire Satyaa.saa.dhasuutra (see Kashikar, "A Survey of the ;Srautasuutras" [Journal of the Univ. of Bombay, XXXV/2, 1966] pp. 60-61) so the reference to the *;srauta*-suutra is not really wrong. > 2) Is the Rudram quoted there in its entirety, or only with the commencing > words of the verses? M. Winternitz in "History of Indian Literature" vol. > 1, page 276 says for the zrautasUtras of the Black Yajur Veda. "...the > zrauta and gRhyasUtras of the Black Yajurveda, give the prayers in the form > which they assume in the saMhitAs of the Black Yajurveda; and they give only > the first words of the verses or Yajus-formulas...". More up to date is Gonda, "The Ritual Suutras" (1977), pp. 502ff. Kirste's edition of HirGS does NOT give the litany in full, but it may be different in the Poona Anandasrama edition of the entire Suutra, which I unfortunately don't have at hand. The place in question should be in chapter XX of the entire Suutra. > 3) Is the Rudram quoted in any of the other zrautasUtras of the Yajur Veda > (black or white)? If so can someone give me the references? Yes, see Gonda's article in the Ingalls Festschrift. > 4) Do the different zrautasUtras of the taittirIya saMhitA, the apastamba, > baudhAyana, bhAradvAja, and hiraNyakezin each define a different sub-school > with minor or major differences in the performance of vedic ritual or is it > the case that a vedic priest of the taittirIya saMhita who was familiar with > the hiraNyakezin zrautasUtras would also be familiar with other zrautasUtras > of the taittirIya saMhitA for the performance of his priestly duties? Yes, they do. Some information may be had from the works quoted above. In addition, you might consult the extensive intro. to Kashikar's Bharadvaaja ;Srauta/ Pait.rmedhika/Pari;se.sa-suutra edition. Perhaps some information on the cooperation of priests of various subschools can also be found in Staal's "Agni", but I am not sure about that. It is not my impression that a vaikika would normally learn the suutras of more than one subschool, as this would be entirely redundant. On learning the mantra-texts of various basic schools, see D. Knipe, "Becoming a Veda in the Godavari Delta" (Festschrift Staal). For specific questions regarding the texts of the Satyaa.saa.dha-subschool, you should consult Prof. Shingo Einoo . Hope this helps, -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue May 9 07:34:23 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 09:34:23 +0200 Subject: Once more: rudram in hiranyakesin zrautasUtra Message-ID: <161227058332.23782.4617029276356342861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry, Parenthetically, I may add that a manuscript (in ;Saaradaa script, hence: from Kashmir; Ka.tha-school? the litany is used also in the Ka.tha-related Vi.s.nusm.rti!) is kept in Yale's Beinecke Rare Books and Manuscripts Library. I don't know how far Hurleyville is from New Haven, but you might go and check it out, although I think mss. for the litany are very common, so it is probably nothing special. Arlo Griffiths From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue May 9 13:52:38 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 09:52:38 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health In-Reply-To: <39179CB9.28E3F9CE@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227058334.23782.6147156998431439418.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and of the Mind/Body project ( http://www.mindbody.harvard.edu/ ) has been doing serious research, over the past few decades, of meditation (MT, Tibetan monks, etc. etc. ), and its effects: lowering of rate of metabolism, more recently also using brain scanning: with clearly visible effects, and if I remember correctly, ultimately, linking of left & right hemisphere. Definite paper on this topic due in about a week. According to this, the trick is that any "mantra" works, whether it is "oM "or "namo buddhaaya" or "hail Mary" or "Allahu Akbar", or just *any* old syllable or word such as "one", "bad", or whatever. It is the repetition that does it. Same with repetition of movements (Dervish dances etc. etc.). Old human method. For the time being, see his books: BENSON HERBERT 1935 25 behavioral medicine work stress and health/ 1985 bks 26 beyond the relaxation response how to harness the healing power/ 1984 bks 27 mind body effect how behavioral medicine can show you the way to/ 1979 bks 28 mind body effect how behavioral medicine can show you the way to/ 1980 bks 29 relaxation response/ 1975 bks 30 relaxation response/ 1976 bks 31 timeless healing the power and biology of belief/ 1996 bks 32 wellness book the comprehensive guide to maintaining health and/ 1991 bks 33 wellness book the comprehensive guide to maintaining health and/ 1993 bks 34 your maximum mind/ 1987 bks ------------- >Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of >mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental >health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? >Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be >helpful. > >Thanks in advance, >Surya P. Mittal ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue May 9 15:02:30 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 10:02:30 -0500 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058341.23782.7915141345990532745.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an annotated bibliography of over 500 papers at: http://www.mum.edu/tm_research/tm_biblio/welcome.html Many of the above papers have charts summarizing findings. The charts are given at: http://www.mum.edu/tm_research/tm_charts/welcome.html The conclusion of these papers is very strongly that 1) It DOES make difference WHAT you do. 2) It does make a difference HOW you do it. There is also extensive research in progress relating specific recitations of Vedas and Vedic literature to almost every aspect of human health. The US government, National Institute of Health, is funding a major research center for alternative medicine base on this research. See also, the department of Psychology: http://www.mum.edu/psych_dept/welcome.html contact Dr. Fred Travis: ftravis at mum.edu You can also see very specific data on success of results (percentage of relief from various conditions) at the site of "Vedic Vibrations": http://www.vedicvibration.com/ Claude Setzer, cssetzer at mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Surya P. Mittal To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 12:06 AM Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health > Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of > mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental > health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? > Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be > helpful. > > Thanks in advance, > Surya P. Mittal > From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 9 15:35:02 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 10:35:02 -0500 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058343.23782.12849550321113378765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of >mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental >health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? >Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be >helpful. > >Thanks in advance, >Surya P. Mittal Check out VKYOGAS site... http://www.vkyogas.org.in/index.html Mere repitition is not of much use, but the person must associate some kind of value(spiritual?) with the mantra. I remember reading that while om seems to have some effect on people in India, studies were being conducted in Florida on seniors who have no idea what om is. VKYOGAS will have more information on these tests. Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue May 9 05:06:01 2000 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 10:36:01 +0530 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058326.23782.10835479997357603434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be helpful. Thanks in advance, Surya P. Mittal From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Tue May 9 15:55:18 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Steve Brown) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 11:55:18 -0400 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us Message-ID: <161227058345.23782.4308372940354416852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends; i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their guru? how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the Dharmasuutraas? I ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those of seeking out a guru. any help you can provide will be of immense help and quite appreciated namaste steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stephen J Brown University of Rochester " The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light..." -Paramahansa Yogananda Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. "Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied lifespans of each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to him." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bvi at AFN.ORG Tue May 9 16:31:40 2000 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 12:31:40 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058348.23782.3407632071541348749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:36 AM 5/9/00 +0530, Surya P. Mittal wrote [to the INDOLOGY mailing list]: >Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of >mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental >health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? >Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be >helpful. David Wolf did such a study for his Ph.D. dissertation in the field of social work. He used three groups, one chanting the Hare Krishna mantra (Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare), another chanting a concocted mantra composed of Sanskrit words arranged in the same pattern as the Hare Krishna mantra, and another who chanted no mantra. He tested all the participants in the study three times, at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of the study using four or five standard psychological tests. The result was that those who chanted the Hare Krishna mantra improved in mental health to a greater extent than the control groups. You may write him for more information at: dgovinda at aol.com Best wishes, Chris Beetle From krishnar9 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 9 18:50:20 2000 From: krishnar9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Krishna R) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 14:50:20 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058350.23782.687030027612400382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since "mantra recital's impact on the subject's health" is only one facet of the more general question, "Can human suggestion effect unrelated external events?", it might be interesting to note that extensive scientific research has been done on this subject by a Princeton University research team (www.princeton.edu/~pear). After a very lengthy statistical study done by eminent statisticians, it was concluded that suggestion does have a slight, but statistically significant role to play in influencing external events. As is usual, there are some individuals who can do better than others, but the interesting point of the study was that even the common joe can achieve quite a bit. Other interesting findings include: a "connected pair" of individuals of the opposite sex (like mother-son, husband-wife) can do much better by combined suggestion. Any way, I have been watching this group over the www for a while, and it's been quite informative. My only regret has been that recently the group has seemingly split into two -- with the amateurs splitting away from the professionals. From my own (relatively short) experience as a researcher, I have always found that answering an amateur's seemingly trivial question can actually help one to understand the strengths and weaknesses of one's own arguments. Also, I find that now there is no one to dumb down the argument so that I can understand it too. Best Wishes, Krishna ----- Dr. Krishna Ratakonda IBM TJ Watson Research Center Yorktown Heights, NY 10607 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU Tue May 9 05:29:32 2000 From: christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU (Christian Coseru) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 15:29:32 +1000 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health In-Reply-To: <39179CB9.28E3F9CE@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227058328.23782.11957372842337984030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See articles in 1. Understanding mantras / edited by Harvey P. Alper, Albany, N.Y. : State University of New York Press, 1989 (available also from Motilal Banarsidass) and 2. Staal, Frits/ Rules without meaning : ritual, mantras, and the human sciences New York : P. Lang, 1989 Christian Coseru At 10:36 AM 5/9/00 +0530, you wrote: >Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of >mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental >health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? >Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be >helpful. > >Thanks in advance, >Surya P. Mittal > > From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Tue May 9 20:47:40 2000 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 15:47:40 -0500 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227058354.23782.15742803513183682706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve, For a non-classical method, you might look one of Anantadas's hagiographies, the Kabir Parachai, where Kabir becomes a disciple of the guru Ramanand in a novel way: Kabir hides on the bathing ghats of the Ganges where he knows Ramanand will come in the morning for his bath. When Ramanand approaches, he trips him, causing the Guru to tumble down the stairs crying out, "Hey Ram!". Thus Ramanand's mantra is transmitted to his accidental disciple, thereby initiating Kabir. Supposedly, Kabir had to follow this unorthodox path because he would otherwise have been refused initiation due to his low birth and ambiguous religious status, between Muslim and Hindu. Like I said, not a "traditional" way, but perhaps a critique of tradition. Christian Novetzke Columbia University At 04:24 PM 5/9/00 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:55 AM 5/9/00 -0400, Steve Brown wrote: > >Friends; > > > >i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical > >hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their > guru? > >how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the Dharmasuutraas? I > >ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those of seeking out a > guru. any > >help you can provide will be of immense help and quite appreciated > >There is a lot that can be said on this topic. Here are just a couple >verses I'm aware of: > >The following is one verse from Padma Purana: > >sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah, >avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh > >A brahmana (priest or intellectual) with all brahminical qualities and >abilities is not qualified to be a guru unless he is a devotee of Lord >Vishnu (the Supreme Lord). While a devotee of Lord Vishnu, even if born in >the lowest class, is qualified to act as guru. > >And one from Bhagavad-gita 4.34 > >tad viddhi pratipatena >pariprasnena sevaya >upadeksyanti te jnanam >jnaninas tattva-darsinah > >Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from >him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can >impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth. > >I hope this is helpful. > >Best wishes, > >Chris Beetle -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bvi at AFN.ORG Tue May 9 20:24:31 2000 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 16:24:31 -0400 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us Message-ID: <161227058352.23782.5834683424788373165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:55 AM 5/9/00 -0400, Steve Brown wrote: >Friends; > >i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical >hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their guru? >how does one approach this guru? is this discussed in the Dharmasuutraas? I >ask only for my own purposes...not scholarly, those of seeking out a guru. any >help you can provide will be of immense help and quite appreciated There is a lot that can be said on this topic. Here are just a couple verses I'm aware of: The following is one verse from Padma Purana: sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah, avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh A brahmana (priest or intellectual) with all brahminical qualities and abilities is not qualified to be a guru unless he is a devotee of Lord Vishnu (the Supreme Lord). While a devotee of Lord Vishnu, even if born in the lowest class, is qualified to act as guru. And one from Bhagavad-gita 4.34 tad viddhi pratipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth. I hope this is helpful. Best wishes, Chris Beetle From kumar at OSWEGO.EDU Tue May 9 21:21:26 2000 From: kumar at OSWEGO.EDU (Alok Kumar) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 17:21:26 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058357.23782.12073193598040004288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna R wrote: "My only regret has been that recently the group has seemingly split into two -- with the amateurs splitting away from the professionals. From my own (relatively short) experience as a researcher, I have always found that answering an amateur's seemingly trivial question can actually help one to understand the strengths and weaknesses of one's own arguments. Also, I find that now there is no one to dumb down the argument so that I can understand it too." I completely agree with R. Krishna's view on the exclusion of amateurs from participation on the list. Apart from the reasons listed by him, it is essential to sustain and upgrade the public interest in Indology for our own sake. Sharing knowledge is as essential as acquiring the knowledge. Socrates, Aristotle, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, and Feynman are famous for their scholarly thinking and for reaching out to society. Some of them even had to pay a big price--lost their lives in the process. The decline of India as a great civilization started when knowledge was restricted to some selected people. I have no intention of starting a debate on the issue. However, I feel distressed with the split. The distress is not for any personal reason, it is for the growth of the subject matter we deal with on this list. Alok Kumar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Wed May 10 00:58:37 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 17:58:37 -0700 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000509202431.00de9ef8@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227058362.23782.13086742948558383757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning Steve Brown's question: >>i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical >>hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their guru? And Chris Beetle's response: > >The following is one verse from Padma Purana: > >sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah, >avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh > >A brahmana (priest or intellectual) with all brahminical qualities and >abilities is not qualified to be a guru unless he is a devotee of Lord >Vishnu (the Supreme Lord). While a devotee of Lord Vishnu, even if born in >the lowest class, is qualified to act as guru. This verse, of course, is not about how to find a Hindu spiritual guru in general. It is, rather, a sectarain VaiSNava statement. The Padma Purana is a VaiSNava Purana, and a very sectarian one at that: it fiercely condemns non VaiSNava Hindus of several traditions. It all depends on what Steve Brown is looking for, a guru within a specific sectarian branch of Hinduism, or a more open spiritual teacher that accepts different branches of Hinduism. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed May 10 02:36:17 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 19:36:17 -0700 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058372.23782.12539690119036625382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanking List members Dante, Stephen Hodge, Swaminathan Madhuresan and David Gray for their remarks on the identity of the sculptural image of the apparently Indian/Buddhist Goddess. The photo itself came to me as a private collection on an un-labled CD. If the other photos in the archive are any indication, the Goddess shot may be up to 80 years old. Stylistically, I initially shared Swaminathan Madhuresan?s feeling that the statue could be from Indonesia. I take, then, that the inscription identifies her as maamakii. Inscription aside, however, can Dante?s observation -- that she looks like Taaraa -- be disputed? He has pointed to her left hand . Finally, can the entire inscription not be deciphered? Kind regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed May 10 02:48:17 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 19:48:17 -0700 Subject: The Black Goddess(es) - 3 images Message-ID: <161227058374.23782.3764790187913636465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I request again the kind assistance of List members to help me to identify 3 Indian Goddesses. I am assuming the icons are all of the Kaalii/Durgaa type, but I am trying to determine their specific identities. The images themselves are quite remarkable (non-erotic): 1) line drawing 2) print 3) painting To view the photoes go to: http://photos.yahoo.com/troyoga Best regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Wed May 10 01:28:37 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Stephen James Brown) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 21:28:37 -0400 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us In-Reply-To: <200005100056.RAA26550@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227058364.23782.4861932085405245852.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> perhaps i should have been more clear. I am not looking for a guru in any particular tradition. I have come into contact with some modern forms of hinduism in the states where the idea always seems to be that of a sadguru for the entire sect...i desire a sadguru in the more traditional way, as the sole student or one of a small number of students. There are many who I consider upagurus, but long for the love and grace of a guru who takes me as one among the few. i hope this clarifies things...i appreciate the help thus far.. thanks steve On Tue, 9 May 2000, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > Concerning Steve Brown's question > > This verse, of course, is not about how to find a Hindu spiritual guru in > general. It is, rather, a sectarain VaiSNava statement. The Padma Purana > is a VaiSNava Purana, and a very sectarian one at that: it fiercely > condemns non VaiSNava Hindus of several traditions. > > It all depends on what Steve Brown is looking for, a guru within a specific > sectarian branch of Hinduism, or a more open spiritual teacher that accepts > different branches of Hinduism. > > Best, > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 10 01:30:38 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 21:30:38 -0400 Subject: The caraNavyUha Message-ID: <161227058367.23782.1479294815535843822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, In A.B. Keiths introduction to his translation of the taittirIya saMhitA he mentions a text the "caraNavyUha". i.e. 1) "That saMhitA [the taittirIya] must have gone back at least to the khANDikIyas, of which the Apastambas are a subdivision in the caraNavyUha,..." 2) "Buhler asserts that the caraNavyUha attributes to the khANDikIyas one and the same text, but this statement with its details which show that our saMhitA [the taittirIya] is ment is not contained in Weber's edition of the text." Can anyone give me any information about what this text, the caraNavyUha is? Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed May 10 01:51:14 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 21:51:14 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058369.23782.5355619186845249372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and of the Mind/Body project ( http://www.mindbody.harvard.edu/ ) ... .... I heard it from the H[orse]'s mouth last Friday in a local conf. about Shamanism. Benson has no prejudice/preconceived idea about any religion/technique and has worked with several of them. His claims therefore should be seriously compared with those mentioned on the list, whether consisting of just 1 or some 500 studies... (The results mentioned by some go squarely against his express stress on reptetion of *any* syllable/word) And (difference in) research methods should be highlighted as well. I leave all of that to our medical & hightech shamans, not the zramaNa! ------------ on a different topic : indicated by : "Subrahmanya S." : http://www.vkyogas.org.in/research.html : see: Dave & Nagendra H R "Effect of Agnihotra on germination of rice seeds - a controlled trail". No time to check that out. -- I just hope it is not the same type of "controlled" experiment done some 20 years ago at U. of Khanpur, according to a book on "Agnihotra": - sow one field with seeds and Agnihotra ash. - sow one field, next to it, with seeds but no Agnihotra ash. Result: the one with Agnihotra ash delivered much more grain!!! ========== On still another topic, QUOTE, 'the amateurs splitting away from the professionals': "indology", renamed "IndianCivilization", now has 59 members and 172 messages, since April 25. ============ ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1862 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Wed May 10 03:50:04 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Tue, 09 May 00 23:50:04 -0400 Subject: The Black Goddess(es) - 3 images Message-ID: <161227058376.23782.7159028354164168972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> These are alot easier: #1 is Chinnamastaa, one of the Da'sa-Mahaavidyaas (Ten Great Wisdoms), of which Kaalii is another. She represents the end of existence, re-distributor of life energy. #2 & 3 are Kaalii herself. Dante ----- Original Message ----- From: Ven. Tantra To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 10:48 PM Subject: The Black Goddess(es) - 3 images > I request again the kind assistance of List members to > help me to identify 3 Indian Goddesses. I am assuming > the icons are all of the Kaalii/Durgaa type, but I am > trying to determine their specific identities. > > The images themselves are quite remarkable > (non-erotic): > 1) line drawing > 2) print > 3) painting > > To view the photoes go to: > http://photos.yahoo.com/troyoga > > Best regards, > > Ven. Tantra > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > From krishnar9 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 10 04:06:41 2000 From: krishnar9 at HOTMAIL.COM (Krishna R) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 00:06:41 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058378.23782.2599358046823327626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From reading my post again, I now see that the word "amateur" can have a derogatory interpretation. In my dictionary the only difference between a professional and an amateur is that while the former does it to earn his bread and butter, the latter does it for enjoyment. Although some amateurs are dilettantes like me, others are definitely quite well qualified. From what I have seen of professionals, most tend to be a little wary of stepping out into the unknown lest the rest of the flock doesnt follow. So, if you quote me to imply that your fellow indologists, are "amateurs" in any other sense, please do so at your own risk. Best Wishes, Krishna ---- Dr. Krishna Ratakonda IBM TJ Watson Research Center Yorktown Heights, NY 10598 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU Tue May 9 23:38:13 2000 From: f_ruzsa at ISIS.ELTE.HU (Ferenc Ruzsa) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 01:38:13 +0200 Subject: Q: Downloadable tales Message-ID: <161227058395.23782.12203576809800893777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, can I find anywhere on the net the text of (or even a part of) the panCatantra and/or the hitopadeSa? Thanks for any info Ferenc -------------------------------------------------------- Ferenc Ruzsa, PhD associate professor of philosophy E?tv?s Lor?nd University, Budapest e-mail: f_ruzsa at isis.elte.hu From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 10 13:04:10 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 06:04:10 -0700 Subject: Buddhist Goddess Identification Message-ID: <161227058390.23782.14782838654477585901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Style, Also, the stone texture. In Indonesian sculpture, have seen some nagari scripts in 9-10th cent. --- "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > Thanking List members Dante, Stephen Hodge, > Swaminathan Madhuresan and David Gray for their > remarks on the identity of the sculptural image of the > apparently Indian/Buddhist Goddess. > > The photo itself came to me as a private collection on > an un-labled CD. If the other photos in the archive > are any indication, the Goddess shot may be up to 80 > years old. Stylistically, I initially shared > Swaminathan Madhuresan?s feeling that the statue could > be from Indonesia. > > I take, then, that the inscription identifies her as > maamakii. > > Inscription aside, however, can Dante?s observation -- > that she looks like Taaraa -- be disputed? He has > pointed to her left hand something: the stem of the lotus ? [t]he right hand in > varada?>. > > Finally, can the entire inscription not be deciphered? > > Kind regards, > > Ven. Tantra > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From sivadasi at EROLS.COM Wed May 10 11:31:03 2000 From: sivadasi at EROLS.COM (Katherine K. Brobeck) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 07:31:03 -0400 Subject: The Black Goddess(es) - 3 images Message-ID: <161227058382.23782.8163293875456196651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> a. Chinnamasta b. Kali c. Kali ---------- >From: "Ven. Tantra" >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: The Black Goddess(es) - 3 images >Date: Tue, May 9, 2000, 10:48 PM > > I request again the kind assistance of List members to > help me to identify 3 Indian Goddesses. I am assuming > the icons are all of the Kaalii/Durgaa type, but I am > trying to determine their specific identities. > > The images themselves are quite remarkable > (non-erotic): > 1) line drawing > 2) print > 3) painting > > To view the photoes go to: > http://photos.yahoo.com/troyoga > > Best regards, > > Ven. Tantra > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Wed May 10 14:36:19 2000 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 07:36:19 -0700 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us Message-ID: <161227058397.23782.6877830069616626882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It seems to me that in 99% of cases, it was an inherited family affair -- kula-gurus, following pretty much the same procedure as yajamanas. For those whose calling was more pronounced, you have your work cut out for you. You will probably find that there are repeated archetypal patterns involving the usual suspects: long fruitless searches followed by dream revelations, sudden apparitions, tests of sincerity, and so on. You have tons of hagiographical material to plough through, so good luck. Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed May 10 09:45:02 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 09:45:02 +0000 Subject: The caraNavyUha Message-ID: <161227058380.23782.3224969597550940497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tuseday, May 9, Harry Spier wrote: >Can anyone give me any information about >what this text, the caraNavyUha is? Se Jan Gonda, *Vedic Literature*, Wiesbaden 1975 (in *A History of Indian Literature*), p. 31 & the references there. Also see the edition, with an English introduction, by Umesh Chandra Sharma, Aligarh 1978, *The CaraNavy?ha of ?aunaka*. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From Joperry2 at AOL.COM Wed May 10 14:22:28 2000 From: Joperry2 at AOL.COM (John Oliver Perry) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 10:22:28 -0400 Subject: impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058392.23782.7566626814458065567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: > Burt Thorp > Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital on health > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > If any repetitive speech or movement links right brain-left brain, then the > thumping rhythms of rap or mosh dancing must be healthful for our > youth--good news for us parents! > > To speculate further, this may be a kind of self-medication (not unlike drugs, alcohol, nicotine) for the dissociation, paranoia and other mental ills which the naturally hypersensitive young suffer in this mass-media-mad global society! That does not make any of these self-medicating practices ultimately healthful, by comparison with some other means of coping with our society's pressures. It is not surprising, however, or overly paranoid to see societally self-defending reasons for US govt-funded and other research to support these relatively easy individualistic responses to our society's very deep contradictions and other problems. See below: Claude Setzer Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital on health There is an annotated bibliography of over 500 papers at: http://www.mum.edu/tm_research/tm_biblio/welcome.html Many of the above papers have charts summarizing findings. The charts are given at: http://www.mum.edu/tm_research/tm_charts/welcome.html The conclusion of these papers is very strongly that 1) It DOES make difference WHAT you do. 2) It does make a difference HOW you do it. There is also extensive research in progress relating specific recitations of Vedas and Vedic literature to almost every aspect of human health. The US government, National Institute of Health, is funding a major research center for alternative medicine base on this research. See also, the department of Psychology: http://www.mum.edu/psych_dept/welcome.html contact Dr. Fred Travis: ftravis at mum.edu You can also see very specific data on success of results (percentage of relief from various conditions) at the site of "Vedic Vibrations": http://www.vedicvibration.com/ ATB John Oliver Perry From jkcowart at ADNC.COM Wed May 10 20:00:56 2000 From: jkcowart at ADNC.COM (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 13:00:56 -0700 Subject: Janaka: Real or mythical? Message-ID: <161227058401.23782.4527967003126817459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------- Dear List Members: Is there any *definitive information* as to whether Janaka was 1) an actual historical figure, or 2) a mythical construction? Or are we left to our own best guess on the subject? Yours truly, John J. Kingston Cowart, M.S. San Diego, California From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed May 10 13:52:29 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 13:52:29 +0000 Subject: The caraNavyUha Message-ID: <161227058385.23782.85746140130106616.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wednesday, May 10, I wrote: >Also see the edition [...] >by Umesh Chandra Sharma [...] Oops, the correct title of Sharma*s edition is *The CaraNavy?ha-S?tra of ?aunaka (with the Commentary of Mah?d?sa)*. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed May 10 14:52:58 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 16:52:58 +0200 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058399.23782.4898096148570872284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would suggest that if anything "universally valid" is to be found in this direction some comparative approach is required rather than "navelgazing" on the uniqueness of the Indian material. (Probably Witzel intended something similar in his parenthetical "The results mentioned by some go squarely against his express stress on [the repetition] of *any* syllable/word.) Even then, at the end some techniques may be more/less effective (e.g. in relaxing etc.) than others, but this is a score on a relative scale. And among the relatively more effective ones there may or may not be more techniques originating in / being developed in South Asia than in other regions. This would again be a score on a relative scale. Among one of my older files of articles on Vedic there is a stray clipping on Gregorian chant which appeared in the Brain/Mind bulletin (USPS 124-350) of March 4, 1985 on experiences of a French physician Alfred Tomatis: " ... Gregorian chants ... were like a 'respiratory yoga'. Those who chanted appeared to slow their breath and induced listeners into their own state of tranquility. " "Tomatis has visited Benedictine monasteries ... At one retreat in France, a young abbot ... severely cut back on the time the monks spent chanting and noticed that they soon began to grow sluggish and sleep more. Tomatis was called in. He reintroduced their lengthy chanting schedule. Soon ... they were sleeping less, working more and feeling better." The orignal query on Impact of mantra recital ... asked for a web-page: these were still inexistent in 1985; but reference is made to a "Tomatis centre, 1121 Bellamy Road N. #12, Scarborough Ont." On the effects of mantras and sounds see also J.F. Staal's Exploring Mysticism (more elaborate on this issue than Staal's Rules Without Meaning which was mentioned earlier in this connection). JH Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: Michael Witzel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 3:51 AM Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. > > >Re: Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and of the Mind/Body >project >( http://www.mindbody.harvard.edu/ ) ... > >.... I heard it from the H[orse]'s mouth last Friday in a local conf. about >Shamanism. >Benson has no prejudice/preconceived idea about any religion/technique and >has worked with several of them. > >His claims therefore should be seriously compared with those mentioned on >the list, whether >consisting of just 1 or some 500 studies... > >(The results mentioned by some go squarely against his express stress on >reptetion of *any* syllable/word) > >And (difference in) research methods should be highlighted as well. > >I leave all of that to our medical & hightech shamans, not the zramaNa! > >======================================================== >Michael Witzel >Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University >2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA > >ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) >home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > >Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed May 10 23:28:11 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 17:28:11 -0600 Subject: Janaka: Real or mythical? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000510125900.00854150@mail.adnc.com> Message-ID: <161227058404.23782.8187465352732167129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. Kingston Cowart writes: >Is there any *definitive information* as to whether Janaka was > 1) an actual historical figure, or > 2) a mythical construction? >Or are we left to our own best guess on the subject? I think one should consider other possibilities also. A historical person could get surrounded by myths, such that he could become more mythical than real. Or events relating to several real individuals could get associated with a mythical person. Mentions in contemporary inscriptions on stone would suggest that a person was historic with near 100% certainty. If a person is mentioned in multiple oral traditions, such that they are highly statistically independent, probability of historicity should be very high. But occurrence and survival of such records is perhaps an exception and thus historicity of most historic individuals is unascertainable. I think that rather than asking for a 0/1 decision, the inherent fuzziness should be accepted. Before 5-6th cent BCE in India, the lack of inscriptions/copperplates and the lack of sufficiently disjoint oral traditions means that establishing historicity would be very hard (i.e. would be subjective). Yashwant From gogi at LW1.VSNL.NET.IN Wed May 10 12:33:11 2000 From: gogi at LW1.VSNL.NET.IN (dipitivilasa) Date: Wed, 10 May 00 18:03:11 +0530 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <161227058387.23782.7670506496521687096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> unsubscribe indology devarakonda satyanarayana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu May 11 09:20:08 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 11:20:08 +0200 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us Message-ID: <161227058406.23782.11072037748806444108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Concerning Steve Brown's question: >>i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical >>hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found theirguru? and concerning the replies given so far: I think that for anyone interested in the phenomenon of "master-pupil" relation (for either theoretical or practical reasons) in classical and modern and neo-hinduism the following book is a MUST: Guru-sisya-sambandha: Das Meister-Schueler-Verhaeltnis im traditionellen und modernen Hinduismus, by Ralph Marc Steiner, Stuttgart: Steiner 1986 (Beitraege zur Suedasienforschung ... Heidelberg, Band 109). For those put off by the German title: it contains an extensive, 17-page summary in English (which mostly reads like a self-contained argument). Part I (chapters 1-4) deals with The Tradition (both the "Great" Sanscritic tradition and the Tamil tradition as example of a "Little" tradition are taken into account). Part II (chapters 5-8) deals with the Modern Age: the guru institution of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries between tradition and modernity [with, for instance, the discussion of two extreme examples in chapter 6: S. Agnihotri 1850-1909 who insisted that his followers (of the Dev Samaj) adored him like a god, as the one and only Dev-Guru Bhagvan; and J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) who at a grand world-meeting of the Theosophical Society (in Ommen, the Netherlands, must have been in the twenties) publicly rejected the guru-institution in general and his status as world-teacher -- for which he had been selected and carefully educated by the Society -- in particular.] Part III (chapters 9 and 10) is devoted to Typology and hermeneutic evaluation. For the modern predicaments chapter 8 will be most interesting; it deals for instance with "The common features of Neo-Hindu guruship such as alienation, levelling process and commercialization ... " "The conclusion is drawn that the modern master-disciple relationship appears to be largely dissociated from its traditional background and that on the whole neither the guru nor his followers fulfill the requirements for the path to salvation in the traditional spirit as they are chalked out by the Hindu tradition." The author is not all negative about modern Hindu guruship: "A definite assessment of the modern guru movements is, however, thought to be premature ... these movements also make a considereable contribution to the overcoming of technocratic civilization and positivistic thought together with its belief in material progress." The Guru-Sotra (extremely popular in India and several neo-Hindu movements) with German translation, and the Acarya-laksana ("characteristic signs of a [N.B. Visnuitic] teacher") with an earlier published English translation of Feuerstein, 1974) are given in Appendices. The work contains numerous references to previous relevant publications; one could quarrel about some of the author's categorizations, choices, translations; but his general evaluations seem still largely valid after almost 15 years. [Is anyone aware of publications in which Steinmann's research is carried further, or is this one of the so many excellent Indological works which is widely neglected after its publication?] I hope this information contributes in either helping or curing Steve Brown in his desire for a sadguru, whom the guru-stotra equals with all primordial affectual relationships: "you are mother and you are father ... etc.". JH Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From wfsands at MUM.EDU Thu May 11 15:53:07 2000 From: wfsands at MUM.EDU (William F. Sands) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 11:53:07 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. In-Reply-To: <200005102301.SAA20083@cserv.mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227058408.23782.17619050397702907856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding M. Witzel's posting below: Witzel: His [Benson's] claims therefore should be seriously compared with those mentioned on the list, whether consisting of just 1 or some 500 studies... WS: His claims have been seriously compared with others on the list. One result can be found in the following paper: Eppley, K., Abrams, A., Shear, J., Differential effects of relaxation techniques on train anxiety: a meta-analysis, Journal of Clinical Psychology, vol. 45, 1989, pp. 957-975. to summarize: 104 trait anxiety studies were compared. Data was entered on a large number of variables, such as population, experimental design, demand characteristics, experimenter's attitude, source of study, duration, hours of treatment, attrition, pre-test anxiety level, etc. Transcendental Meditation, other meditation, progressive relaxation, and other relaxation were compared for all outcomes and all independent outcomes. Transcendental Meditation had significantly (p<.005) larger effect size (2 to 3 X) than the other groups, which were not significantly different among themselves. This study included research on Benson's relaxation response. Very best, -- William Sands, PhD From: Michael Witzel Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:51:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Re: Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and of the Mind/Body project ( http://www.mindbody.harvard.edu/ ) ... .... I heard it from the H[orse]'s mouth last Friday in a local conf. about Shamanism. Benson has no prejudice/preconceived idea about any religion/technique and has worked with several of them. His claims therefore should be seriously compared with those mentioned on the list, whether consisting of just 1 or some 500 studies... (The results mentioned by some go squarely against his express stress on reptetion of *any* syllable/word) And (difference in) research methods should be highlighted as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE Thu May 11 12:57:23 2000 From: ges94ahj at STUDSERV.UNI-LEIPZIG.DE (jan) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 14:57:23 +0200 Subject: Assamese Grammar In-Reply-To: <009c01bfabf3$c4de9f70$b63f70c2@sahaja> Message-ID: <161227058442.23782.1024733338262406853.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear listmembers, i?m looking for a assamese grammar (especially in english). is there any? any other materials for beginners in learning assamese? thanks in advance jan seifert From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Thu May 11 23:49:53 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 19:49:53 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra... pastoral hip hop Message-ID: <161227058412.23782.3183268288005832060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Since "mantra recital's impact on the subject's health" is only one facet of the more general question, "Can human suggestion effect unrelated external events?", How about unrelated external events affecting human thought. Sometime back I read about so called morphogenetic fields. An experiment was conducted where non english speakers were asked to memorize many easy poems identical in terms of simplicity. The subjects on average memorized mary had a little lamb faster than other equally inane but unknown poems. And now a message to parents in general. Mosh pit, hood wherever ..as one gets more and more attuned to say rap or any other form of music/rythem the benifits and enjoyment increase, neural training comes into play you see. Speaking from personal experience there is nothing more soothing than banging on drums. There should be a study ... The vedas could be thought of as some sort of pastoral hip hop, acquiring greater subconscious meaning as the tradition matures and listeners ascribe more meaning to it. From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri May 12 02:24:57 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 20:24:57 -0600 Subject: Azerbaijan Hindu Fire-Temple ( Re: Zoroastrians in other countries) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058419.23782.9339172736017097427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rustam wrote: >I read that in Baku, Azerbaijan, the Fire-Worshipers' Temple >used to belong to the Hindus, instead of the Zoroastrians. How >is that possible? There is an account in Bongard-Levin & Vigasin's "Obraz Indii", a history of Soviet Indology. I have a Hindi translation. The first account of Baku fire-temple, owned by Hindu traders, is found in 17th century. In the middle of 18th century as many as 40-50 monks lived there permanently. The Hindu traders from Punjab/Multan used to arrive through Iran. Many were settled in Astrakhan across the Caspian, and some as far away as St. Petersberg. The last priest extinguished the fire in 1883 and departed. The collection of manuscripts form the temple is in some Russian collections. The temple was a museum in the Soviet era. I'm no sure what happened to it after that. The Khatri traders used to trade throughout central Asia. Some still live in Iran, those in Afghanistan have mostly fled. Some Khatris used to be Jain (a few still are), a travel account throughout central Asia is preserved in a temple in Delhi. The Baku fire temple was a pilgrimage center, complete with a dharmashala. If you will look it up in map, you will notice if is very, very far away from India. Yashwant From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri May 12 02:35:18 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 20:35:18 -0600 Subject: Janaka: Real or mythical? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058421.23782.6067979957114831483.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel: >Even today: years ago I heard a Hindi film song detailing the life of >Nehru while clearly copying the Buddhacarita: "A prince born on the banks >of the Ganges... etc " When he died, the newspapers reported that the earth shook and the sky became dark. Which was indeed true. I have seen a painting showing a vimana emerging from the Mahatma Gandhi's pyre, with the Mahatma inside, ascending to heaven. I've also seen him included among the avataras of Vishnu in a painting. Yashwant From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu May 11 18:48:58 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 20:48:58 +0200 Subject: SV: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058410.23782.10621845649459726869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> William F. Sands [SMTP:wfsands at MUM.EDU] skrev 11. mai 2000 17:53: > > Witzel: His [Benson's] claims therefore should be seriously compared with > those mentioned on the list, whether consisting of just 1 or some 500 > studies... > > > WS: His claims have been seriously compared with others on the list. One > result can be found in the following paper: I never doubted that Transcendental Meditation and similar techniques had a positive effect on those who practiced it (otherwise, why would they bother?), but I am curious about exactly what that they help you achieve, if you like: what the trade-off is for the time spent meditating. If I spend one hour a day meditating, will it save me, say, two hours of sleep? Will it improve my productivity, etc? Any time-saving info would be appreciated! Particularly if it is exact! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri May 12 01:52:03 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 21:52:03 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058414.23782.9524870349477385135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To be clear: I have no opinion, and should not, on the following claim or that of anyone else (H.Benson, or recently, the one about the Hare Krishna mantra). William Sands, PhD: Witzel: His [Benson's] claims therefore should be seriously compared... WS: His claims have been seriously compared with others on the list. One result can be found in the following paper: Eppley, K., ...."Transcendental Meditation had significantly (p<.005) larger effect size (2 to 3 X) than the other groups, which were not significantly different among themselves. This study included research on Benson's relaxation response." Apart from the fact that, apparently, 2 different things are compared here 1989(!), i.e. "trait anxiety":: general use of "mantras" across cultures (Benson, forthc., 2000), I reply, with the usual philologist's suspicion: Isn't it a trifle surprising that some claim and insist that their Mantra (Hare Krishna....), and others that their method (MT) have the best effect, and Benson : both/neither? As I said, I leave the investigation of the METHODS and RESULTS to non-involved, *independent* scientists. For the time being, it seems a little too early to come to conclusions, and certainly so for non-medical people like me. And, please do not rely on my anecdotal reports, but read Benson's paper, due now any day. ========== >Re:>> Burt Thorp > If any repetitive speech or movement links right brain-left brain, t >To speculate further, this may be a kind of self-medication Ever wondered about the repetitive movements of zoo animals? the only thing they can do... MW. ---- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1988 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri May 12 01:53:25 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 11 May 00 21:53:25 -0400 Subject: Janaka: Real or mythical? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000510125900.00854150@mail.adnc.com> Message-ID: <161227058417.23782.6340993680014977956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is there any *definitive information* as to whether Janaka was > > 1) an actual historical figure, or > 2) a mythical construction? A historical person, with a lot of sagas and tales attached.... Indeed, he is found both in early Hindu (Upanisad) texts, as well as in Buddhist texts (Jaataka no. 539), as Mahaa-Janaka (cf. Mahaa-Kosala for the King of Kosala!). Thus, fairly well attested. I did not check old Jaina texts yet. Plus, of course, mentioned in later Hindu texts, in more such tales: Mahabharata, Harivamsa, etc. Another (?) Janaka, father of Siitaa, in the Ramayana and the Puranas. Which famous historical figure has escaped such accretions? Even today: years ago I heard a Hindi film song detailing the life of Nehru while clearly copying the Buddhacarita: "A prince born on the banks of the Ganges... etc " Ever heard of the Indira-Zatakam, of 1977? There also is a painting of her, after the Bengal war, as Mahisuramardini... killing "the Pak. buffalo demon". So, who is surprised about ancient times, without writing, and with active bards all around? --------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Fri May 12 08:32:54 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 04:32:54 -0400 Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts Message-ID: <161227058423.23782.3504588443327088238.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings- I am trying to locate copies of texts in the "Buddhist Sanskrit Texts" series from the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga that was done in the late 50's early 60's. The main editor was P L Vaidya. There are a couple of them listed on bibliofind and abebooks, but I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any other sources? Also is there a complete list of volumes in this series anywhere? Thank you Dante Rosati From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri May 12 12:41:03 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 05:41:03 -0700 Subject: Rare statues found on Noyyal's banks Message-ID: <161227058431.23782.8660948276057053869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.chennaionline.com/newsview/newsitem.asp?NEWSID=%7BCE66B37C%2D13BF%2D11D4%2D809B%2D009027DEA219%7D&CATEGORYNAME=Chennai+News Rare statues found on Noyyal's banks "Coimbatore, May 12: The five-headed black cobra remains poised to strike with its hood spread out menacingly, each scale on its body sharply delineated in stone. This black stone statue belonging to the first century A.D. and several others were unearthed recently around the banks of the Noyyal river at Perur, near here. More than 40 tablets with inscriptions in the ancient Tamil Brahmi script from the first to the 18th centuries ad are among the other finds. State Archeology department curator R Poongundran, who has taken custody of the finds, said that there was also a clay figurine of Goddess Parvathi embracing a 'Shivalinga', which was more than century-old. .... Poongundran said among the finds was an 1800-year old clay pot, about one foot in height, carrying the same inscriptions. Yet another one, dating back about 2000 years, depicted a man in the standing posture. He is identified as the legendary folk hero Kadan from Kumulur in the country of Erumi from the inscriptions at the backside. The nude figure of a goddess, accompanied by a lion, is also depicted in clay. It is said to be dating back some 1600 years. A five-headed cobra, hewn from black stone and more than one foot in height, belonging to the first century has been found in remarkably good condition, and also carrying 10 ten lines of the inscription." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri May 12 14:15:45 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 07:15:45 -0700 Subject: Rare statues found on Noyyal's banks Message-ID: <161227058433.23782.11014549379862305752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is very interesting. Is Erumi what's later known as gangavADi alias the Mysore plateau? Thanks in advance, LS --- Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > http://www.chennaionline.com/newsview/newsitem.asp?NEWSID=%7BCE66B37C%2D13BF%2D11D4%2D809B%2D009027DEA219%7D&CATEGORYNAME=Chennai+News > > > > Rare statues found on Noyyal's banks > > "Coimbatore, May 12: The five-headed black cobra > remains poised to strike with > its hood spread out menacingly, each scale on its > body sharply delineated in > stone. This black stone statue belonging to the > first century A.D. and several > others were unearthed recently around the banks of > the Noyyal river at Perur, > near here. > > More than 40 tablets with inscriptions in the > ancient Tamil Brahmi script from > the first to the 18th centuries ad are among the > other finds. State Archeology > department curator R Poongundran, who has taken > custody of the finds, said that > there was also a clay figurine of Goddess Parvathi > embracing a 'Shivalinga', > which was more than century-old. > ..... > Poongundran said among the finds was an 1800-year > old clay pot, about one foot > in height, carrying the same inscriptions. Yet > another one, dating back about > 2000 years, depicted a man in the standing posture. > He is identified as the > legendary folk hero Kadan from Kumulur in the > country of Erumi from the > inscriptions at the backside. > > The nude figure of a goddess, accompanied by a lion, > is also depicted in clay. > It is said to be dating back some 1600 years. A > five-headed cobra, hewn from > black stone and more than one foot in height, > belonging to the first century > has been found in remarkably good condition, and > also carrying 10 ten lines of > the inscription." > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! > Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri May 12 11:44:53 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 07:44:53 -0400 Subject: conference announcement (from SARAI) Message-ID: <161227058428.23782.2233578044961648985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact event organizers directly for further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/conferences.html -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= KATHA UTSAV, 2000 WORDS INTO WORLDS -- WORLDS INTO WORDS AN INTERNATIONAL INTERDISCIPLINARY CONFERENCE ON THE SHORT STORY December 16 - 22, 2000. at Sanskriti, New Delhi, India Come catch the excitement! Share the magic of the short story - as a writer, a translator, a teacher! For more information, email us at katha at vsnl.com Phone: 91-11-686-8193; 652-1752 Fax: 91-11-651-4373 Mailing address: KATHA, A3 Sarvodaya Enclave New Delhi 110 017. Conference webpage: http://www.katha.org/kathautsav.html Over the last eight years, the annual Katha National Colloquium on Language, Culture, Translation has built up as a national meeting place for writers, translators scholars and critics from all over the country. This is the tenth year of the Katha Awards and once again writers and translators, critics and scholars will gather from all the four corners of India, from Manipur and Rajasthan to Kerala and Tamilnadu, to discuss the short story! This year, we open up the Katha Utsav to the international community. And we invite you most cordially to join us to celebrate the story, to revel in its myriad excitements and, as writers, translators, teachers, to explore its powers, its creative possibilities. This conference is being organized by Katha. A nonprofit, voluntary organization, Katha works with equal dedication and commitment through well-defined programmes in the literacy-literature spectrum. Since 1989, our work has grown organically to span - * the primary to higher education continuum of formal education, The Katha National Institute of Translation has Academic Centres and/or Katha Clubs in various Indian Universities/ premier colleges. * And, in nonformal education/grassroots work, we provide learning opportunities for 1300 working children and their siblings. We provide income-generation opportunities for their mothers. * Known as quality publishers, we focus on language, literature, culturelinking and translation. Dates of the Conference: December 16 - 22, 2000. Venue: The conference will be held at Sanskriti Kendra, one of the best laid-out conference spaces in New Delhi. Close to Delhi, Sanskriti has excellent museums as well as some exquisite pieces of terracotta. It is readily accessible by road from Delhi. And the International Airport is about 45 minutes away, with direct flights to most destinations. Academic Advisory Board: Professor Kateryna Longley, Executive Dean, Humanities and Education, University of Perth; Professor Malashri Lal, HoD, English, Delhi University; Professor Paul St Pierre, Departement d'etudes francaises, Concordia University; Professor Sherry Simon, Professor, D=E9partement d'etudes francaises, Concordia University; Professor Udaya Narayan Singh, Centre for Applied Linguistics & Translation Studies, University of Hyderabad. Coordinators: Dr. GJV Prasad and Kamala, Jawaharlal Nehru University; Dr M. Asaduddin, Jamia Millia Islamia; Dr Sukrita Paul Kumar, Delhi University. The story has captured the Indian imagination as almost nothing else has. Many would say that India's genius lies in her short stories and that the Indian short story can be dated back to the oral renderings of the great epic, The Mahabharata, starting probably some 3000 years ago! Through the ages, stories of varying lengths and complexities, kathas, have given us quick joys and lasting pleasures, vicarious learnings, our values and ethics. And we welcome you to Katha's First International Conference on the Short Story! From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Fri May 12 09:48:34 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 10:48:34 +0100 Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts In-Reply-To: <001a01bfbbec$ac8470e0$1e711d18@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <161227058426.23782.4756158966794381445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 12 May 2000, Rosati wrote: > I am trying to locate copies of texts in the "Buddhist Sanskrit Texts" > series from the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga that was done in the late 50's > early 60's. The main editor was P L Vaidya. There are a couple of them > listed on bibliofind and abebooks, but I was wondering if anyone knows if > there are any other sources? Also is there a complete list of volumes in > this series anywhere? Some of them were reprinted by the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga, in the years 1987, 1988, 1989. An Indian Bookseller gives the following titles (a list from Sept. 1999): Lalita-vistara. 2nd ed. Edited by P.L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1987. - xxxiv, 386 pp. (Buddhist Sanskrit Texts Ser. Vol. 1) Guhyasamaja Tantra or Tathagataguhyaka. 2nd ed. Ed. by S. Bagchi and Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1988. - xxiv, 177 pp. (BST Ser. Vol. 3) Madhyamakasastra of Nagarjuna with the commentary Prasannapada by Candrakirti. 2nd ed. Ed. by P. L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1987. - xlvii, 362 pp. (BST Ser. vol. 4) Bodhicaryavatara of Santideva with the commentary Panjika of Prajnakaramati. 2nd ed. Ed. by P. L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1988. - xix, 318 pp. (BST Ser. vol. 5) Avadana-Kalpalata of Ksemendra. Vol. 1-2. 2nd ed. Ed. by P. L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1989. - (BST Ser. vol. 6-7) Maybe, there are more of them. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Fri May 12 17:42:18 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 13:42:18 -0400 Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts Message-ID: <161227058435.23782.8023716069311882203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Peter- Thanks for your reply. Do you happen to know the name/website of the "Indian Bookseller" you mention? Many thanks Dante ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Wyzlic To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 5:48 AM Subject: Re: buddhist sanskrit texts > On Fri, 12 May 2000, Rosati wrote: > > > I am trying to locate copies of texts in the "Buddhist Sanskrit Texts" > > series from the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga that was done in the late 50's > > early 60's. The main editor was P L Vaidya. There are a couple of them > > listed on bibliofind and abebooks, but I was wondering if anyone knows if > > there are any other sources? Also is there a complete list of volumes in > > this series anywhere? > > Some of them were reprinted by the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga, in the > years 1987, 1988, 1989. An Indian Bookseller gives the following titles (a > list from Sept. 1999): > > Lalita-vistara. 2nd ed. Edited by P.L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - > Darbhanga 1987. - xxxiv, 386 pp. (Buddhist Sanskrit Texts Ser. Vol. 1) > > Guhyasamaja Tantra or Tathagataguhyaka. 2nd ed. Ed. by S. Bagchi and > Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1988. - xxiv, 177 pp. (BST Ser. Vol. 3) > > Madhyamakasastra of Nagarjuna with the commentary Prasannapada by > Candrakirti. 2nd ed. Ed. by P. L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - > Darbhanga 1987. - xlvii, 362 pp. (BST Ser. vol. 4) > > Bodhicaryavatara of Santideva with the commentary Panjika of > Prajnakaramati. 2nd ed. Ed. by P. L. Vaidya and Shridhar Tripathi. - > Darbhanga 1988. - xix, 318 pp. (BST Ser. vol. 5) > > Avadana-Kalpalata of Ksemendra. Vol. 1-2. 2nd ed. Ed. by P. L. Vaidya and > Shridhar Tripathi. - Darbhanga 1989. - (BST Ser. vol. 6-7) > > Maybe, there are more of them. > > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Peter Wyzlic > Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > D-53113 Bonn > From wfsands at MUM.EDU Fri May 12 18:07:22 2000 From: wfsands at MUM.EDU (William F. Sands) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 14:07:22 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. In-Reply-To: <200005112300.SAA14933@cserv.mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227058437.23782.4297568104555735590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> re: I never doubted that Transcendental Meditation and similar techniques had a positive effect on those who practiced it (otherwise, why would they bother?), but I am curious about exactly what that they help you achieve, if you like: what the trade-off is for the time spent meditating. If I spend one hour a day meditating, will it save me, say, two hours of sleep? Will it improve my productivity, etc? Any time-saving info would be appreciated! Particularly if it is exact! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars, People practice Transcendental Meditation for lots of reasons, ranging from reduced blood pressure, less stress, greater creativity and intelligence, to more inner happiness and the unfoldment of enlightenment. All of the reasons have quite a bit of scientific support (there have been about 600 published studies over the last thirty years). The basic idea is that during Transcendental Meditation the body rests very deeply (much deeper than deep sleep according to the physiological measurements) while the mind spontaneously settles to its quietest state, which is experienced as unbounded, blissful, wakefulness (Atma). Physiologically this process allows the body to release accumulated stress, and mentally it enables one to access more of one's innate potential. As a result, one tends to find greater clarity of mind, more intelligence (studies have found that students improve in measures of intelligence, creativity, grades go up, ability to concentrate improves, etc.), more creativity, etc. At the same time the body benefits by having less stress, resulting in less disease (as measured by fewer insurance claims for sickness, less hospitalization, etc.) and the reversal of ageing factors. All of this takes place completely effortlessly and spontaneously. In terms of the question of saving time, it won't replace sleep (the quality of rest, though deeper, has different physiological characteristics), and so any savings of time will be accrued be in terms of improved efficiency (studies have demonstrated repeatedly, and it's certainly my experience). I've been practising for over 30 years, and I would say that I have grossly understated the benefits in the above. I hope this helps, Regards Bill Sands -- William Sands, PhD 280 Whispering Hills Road Boone, NC 28607 Phone: 828-263-0054 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Fri May 12 19:34:50 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 14:34:50 -0500 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058449.23782.15740711926823842065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, I would think that Mr. Hoogcarspel is an excellent candidate for lack of professional courtesy expulsion that has been afforded to others previously on the list. He seems to me to be intentionally less than truthful in order to discredit other members of the list. It would seem that his motives are more suspect than the things he criticizes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Erik To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. 1.. As far as I know all the investigations which gave results in favour of TM where suspect. 2.. According to the TM-theory I learned in the days I took courses, the different mantras don't cause differences in the level of concentration attained, they are given in order not to disturb the meditators personality and way of life 3.. I discussed TM extensively with a very experienced vipassanateacher and he pointed out the disadvantages, being an increase in credulity and a decrease in creativity and criticism due to the overdose of zamatha, which was in perfect accordance with my experience with TM-practitioners (workoholics are not at risk, because they cannot acheive this level) 4.. I've known persons who got into serious mental problems (extramural treatment for over a year) because the experience of a moment of deep samadhi disturbed their psychological stability 5.. all the TM-teachers I've met only played 'his masters voice' and had very little social skills or psychological insight. 6.. I've seen systems of personal bijas in some translated texts of kasmiri zaivaism (I'm sorry I cannot recall which), which could very well explain the secret of the personal TM-mantra. 7.. there are groups which use the 'mantra om namo zivaya' the TM way 8.. there are have been experiments in the fifties with meditation on a blue vase; the participants also experienced feelings of wellbeing and developed affection for the object. 9.. the real number of TM-practicioners is considerably less then the TM-movement claims, because most people stop after a while without telling anyone 10.. the argument of mr Sands is a typical example of an argument ad verecundiam and so plain sophistry Sorry to disturb the dream erik "William F. Sands" wrote: re: I never doubted that Transcendental Meditation and similar techniques had a positive effect on those who practiced it (otherwise, why would they bother?), but I am curious about exactly what that they help you achieve, if you like: what the trade-off is for the time spent meditating. If I spend one hour a day meditating, will it save me, say, two hours of sleep? Will it improve my productivity, etc? Any time-saving info would be appreciated! Particularly if it is exact! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars, People practice Transcendental Meditation for lots of reasons, ranging from reduced blood pressure, less stress, greater creativity and intelligence, to more inner happiness and the unfoldment of enlightenment. All of the reasons have quite a bit of scientific support (there have been about 600 published studies over the last thirty years). The basic idea is that during Transcendental Meditation the body rests very deeply (much deeper than deep sleep according to the physiological measurements) while the mind spontaneously settles to its quietest state, which is experienced as unbounded, blissful, wakefulness (Atma). Physiologically this process allows the body to release accumulated stress, and mentally it enables one to access more of one's innate potential. As a result, one tends to find greater clarity of mind, more intelligence (studies have found that students improve in measures of intelligence, creativity, grades go up, ability to concentrate improves, etc.), more creativity, etc. At the same time the body benefits by having less stress, resulting in less disease (as measured by fewer insurance claims for sickness, less hospitalization, etc.) and the reversal of ageing factors. All of this takes place completely effortlessly and spontaneously. In terms of the question of saving time, it won't replace sleep (the quality of rest, though deeper, has different physiological characteristics), and so any savings of time will be accrued be in terms of improved efficiency (studies have demonstrated repeatedly, and it's certainly my experience). I've been practising for over 30 years, and I would say that I have grossly understated the benefits in the above. I hope this helps, Regards Bill Sands -- William Sands, PhD 280 Whispering Hills Road Boone, NC 28607 Phone: 828-263-0054 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Fri May 12 19:50:33 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Steve Brown) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 15:50:33 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058452.23782.14256909256787878025.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Oddly enough, i as a mere undergrad was having a great deal of trouble following Hoogscarpel's argument, mainly because he failed to make one. I find it hard to believe that one who claims to be a scholar, and purports to be attacking a movement from a scholarly position would post to a listserve of scholars and fail to even support his points. All the arguments he made (if one were to call them that) lacked any form of reference or support. He was rudely attacking the well supported arguments of another scholar in an increadibly unproffessional manner. I sincerely hope, as an avid reader of this list, that my experience of this group remains unchanged; which is to say i hope that those like Mr. Hoogscrapel are the exception. thanks to those of you who are both kind and insightful for giving me hope in the field. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stephen J Brown University of Rochester Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. The great teacher replied, "Because, in the very numerous and varied lifespans of each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to him." ----- Original Message ----- From: Claude Setzer To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Dear Dominik, I would think that Mr. Hoogcarspel is an excellent candidate for lack of professional courtesy expulsion that has been afforded to others previously on the list. He seems to me to be intentionally less than truthful in order to discredit other members of the list. It would seem that his motives are more suspect than the things he criticizes. ----- Original Message ----- From: Erik To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. 1.. As far as I know all the investigations which gave results in favour of TM where suspect. 2.. According to the TM-theory I learned in the days I took courses, the different mantras don't cause differences in the level of concentration attained, they are given in order not to disturb the meditators personality and way of life 3.. I discussed TM extensively with a very experienced vipassanateacher and he pointed out the disadvantages, being an increase in credulity and a decrease in creativity and criticism due to the overdose of zamatha, which was in perfect accordance with my experience with TM-practitioners (workoholics are not at risk, because they cannot acheive this level) 4.. I've known persons who got into serious mental problems (extramural treatment for over a year) because the experience of a moment of deep samadhi disturbed their psychological stability 5.. all the TM-teachers I've met only played 'his masters voice' and had very little social skills or psychological insight. 6.. I've seen systems of personal bijas in some translated texts of kasmiri zaivaism (I'm sorry I cannot recall which), which could very well explain the secret of the personal TM-mantra. 7.. there are groups which use the 'mantra om namo zivaya' the TM way 8.. there are have been experiments in the fifties with meditation on a blue vase; the participants also experienced feelings of wellbeing and developed affection for the object. 9.. the real number of TM-practicioners is considerably less then the TM-movement claims, because most people stop after a while without telling anyone 10.. the argument of mr Sands is a typical example of an argument ad verecundiam and so plain sophistry Sorry to disturb the dream erik "William F. Sands" wrote: re: I never doubted that Transcendental Meditation and similar techniques had a positive effect on those who practiced it (otherwise, why would they bother?), but I am curious about exactly what that they help you achieve, if you like: what the trade-off is for the time spent meditating. If I spend one hour a day meditating, will it save me, say, two hours of sleep? Will it improve my productivity, etc? Any time-saving info would be appreciated! Particularly if it is exact! Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Lars, People practice Transcendental Meditation for lots of reasons, ranging from reduced blood pressure, less stress, greater creativity and intelligence, to more inner happiness and the unfoldment of enlightenment. All of the reasons have quite a bit of scientific support (there have been about 600 published studies over the last thirty years). The basic idea is that during Transcendental Meditation the body rests very deeply (much deeper than deep sleep according to the physiological measurements) while the mind spontaneously settles to its quietest state, which is experienced as unbounded, blissful, wakefulness (Atma). Physiologically this process allows the body to release accumulated stress, and mentally it enables one to access more of one's innate potential. As a result, one tends to find greater clarity of mind, more intelligence (studies have found that students improve in measures of intelligence, creativity, grades go up, ability to concentrate improves, etc.), more creativity, etc. At the same time the body benefits by having less stress, resulting in less disease (as measured by fewer insurance claims for sickness, less hospitalization, etc.) and the reversal of ageing factors. All of this takes place completely effortlessly and spontaneously. In terms of the question of saving time, it won't replace sleep (the quality of rest, though deeper, has different physiological characteristics), and so any savings of time will be accrued be in terms of improved efficiency (studies have demonstrated repeatedly, and it's certainly my experience). I've been practising for over 30 years, and I would say that I have grossly understated the benefits in the above. I hope this helps, Regards Bill Sands -- William Sands, PhD 280 Whispering Hills Road Boone, NC 28607 Phone: 828-263-0054 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat May 13 03:46:26 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 20:46:26 -0700 Subject: sculptural terminology: tribanga, trivanka Message-ID: <161227058457.23782.7697200894479432699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reference to Indian sculptural terminology, let?s say we come to the Indonesian Standing Buddha. The posture of the Buddha is gracefully sensuous. The weight of the body favors his right foot thus making the lateral line of the hips slightly angled. My notes refer to this pose as tribanga or trivanka, that is, ?broken? in three or ?bent? in three. Could any list members clarify and amplify the meaning of these two terms? Are they both Sanskrit? Or Sankrit and Pali equivalents? I am also not sure of any diacritical marks. Best regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat May 13 03:51:02 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 20:51:02 -0700 Subject: Shavara Message-ID: <161227058459.23782.3452244664090884289.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody shed a little light on the Shavara (diacriticals unknown)? Does the term relate to corpse (=zava). Stephen Hodge mentioned the term in an email to the Indologist List dated 22 April 2000, ?.dombi as scavenger woman? Regarding this he wrote, ??(The women identified as .daakiniis are especially linked with the .Dombi and Shavara, i.e., Munda peoples living mainly in parts of Orissa, Bihar and Bengal.)? Thank you, Ven Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 13 01:13:28 2000 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 21:13:28 -0400 Subject: Azerbaijan Hindu Fire-Temple ( Re: Zoroastrians in other countries) Message-ID: <161227058455.23782.7245738903074462348.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The first account of Baku fire-temple, owned by Hindu >traders, is found in >17th century. I wonder if it had any connection with Zoroastrian religion. I would think it probably had. >The temple was a museum in the Soviet era. I'm >no sure what happened to it after that. It is still there. Someone sent me a URL http://www.bakupages.com/wwwroot/fire_temple.asp Are there any functioning fire-temples in China? Someone told me there may be some, but that is hard to believe. Rustam ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri May 12 19:24:59 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 21:24:59 +0200 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058444.23782.16511178968067981883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri May 12 19:31:59 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 21:31:59 +0200 Subject: Impact of mantra... pastoral hip hop Message-ID: <161227058447.23782.16293062775824110152.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> basic semiology: the relation between signifier and signified is arbitrary BTW there seems to be no limit of what people are willing to believe (my version of a proof angainst the existence of a god: no intelligent being could ever have had even the idea of creating such a bunch of fools) Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > > Since "mantra recital's impact on the subject's health" is only one facet > of > the more general question, "Can human suggestion effect unrelated external > events?", > > How about unrelated external events affecting human thought. Sometime back I > read about so called morphogenetic fields. > > An experiment was conducted where non english speakers were asked to > memorize many easy poems identical in terms of simplicity. The subjects on > average memorized mary had a little lamb faster than other equally inane but > unknown poems. > > And now a message to parents in general. Mosh pit, hood wherever ..as one > gets more and more attuned to say rap or any other form of music/rythem the > benifits and enjoyment increase, neural training comes into play you see. > Speaking from personal experience there is nothing more soothing than > banging on drums. There should be a study ... > > The vedas could be thought of as some sort of pastoral hip hop, acquiring > greater subconscious meaning as the tradition matures and listeners ascribe > more meaning to it. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 13 04:32:38 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 21:32:38 -0700 Subject: sculptural terminology: tribanga, trivanka Message-ID: <161227058469.23782.2360486608671830189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >refer to this pose as tribanga or trivanka, that is, >?broken? in three or ?bent? in three. Could any list >members clarify and amplify the meaning of these two >terms? Are they both Sanskrit? Or Sankrit and Pali tribhanga is the Sanskrit term for the posture you describe. The hips are thrust out to the right, the shoulders out to the left, and the head leans to the right again. This divides the body along three axes, all inclined to the vertical. The mirror image posture would also be tribhanga. A pronounced sinuous curvature is given to female bodies especially. The alternative stance, where the standing body is aligned completely along the vertical, is samabhanga. The new mammoth Tiruvalluvar statue in Kanyakumari has a somewhat tribhanga aspect to it. Personally, I think it would have been better to give it a samabhanga pose, a la Bahubali in Shravanabelagola. What you gain in grace with tribhanga, you lose in the austerity that samabhanga can convey. These terms are used in Indian dance terminology too. Bharatanatyam posture is samabhanga. Odissi posture is tribhanga. The corresponding dance movements are also related to this posture. Bharatanatyam prefers straight lines of movement; Odissi moves are all S-shaped patterns, never straight lines. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 13 04:51:01 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 21:51:01 -0700 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058471.23782.7031102784246557234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: I discussed TM extensively with a very experienced vipassanateacher and he pointed out the disadvantages, being an increase in credulity and a decrease in creativity and criticism due to the overdose of zamatha, which was in perfect accordance with my experience with TM-practitioners (workoholics are not at risk, because they cannot acheive this level) ------------------------------------------- Without taking sides in this debate, let me just say that if I were a vipassana teacher, I would find disadvantages with TM too. And vice versa, I may add. There are deep-rooted religious politics going on in the background, as far as such claims are concerned. You make several claims in one sentence. By zamatha, do you mean zAnti, derived from zama, denoting peace and tranquility? If so, there is no positive correlation between credulity and this quality. And there is no positive correlation between creativity/critical thinking with the lack of this quality either. As far as I can see, nobody has a monopoly on credulity. The vast majority of the world's population is credulous, for various reasons. Humans seem to be born with it. And the vast majority of the world's population lacks zAnti. Nobody seems to need to practice TM in order to become credulous. And you certainly don't need to be credulous, to practice TM or to follow anything else. Every Babaji, Mataji, Roshi, Lama and Tulku today has a world-wide following, not to mention the oldest sect which has become the dominating religion in the world. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sat May 13 04:19:22 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 23:19:22 -0500 Subject: Assamese Grammar Message-ID: <161227058467.23782.13302034348833665686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a primer in English: Assamese for All Sri Mukunda Madhava Sharma Narajiban Press, Calcutta, 1963 It is about 130 pages. If you cannot find it elsewhere, it is at University of Virginia PK 1551 .S5 Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: jan To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: Assamese Grammar > dear listmembers, > > i?m looking for a assamese grammar (especially in english). > is there any? > any other materials for beginners in learning assamese? > > > thanks in advance > jan seifert > From wfsands at MUM.EDU Sat May 13 03:59:56 2000 From: wfsands at MUM.EDU (William F. Sands) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 23:59:56 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. In-Reply-To: <200005122300.SAA09293@cserv.mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227058464.23782.10632477728417047443.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This kind of posting doesn't deserves the time or effort for a response. -- William Sands, PhD 280 Whispering Hills Road Boone, NC 28607 Phone: 828-263-0054 e-mail: wfsands at mum.edu From: Erik Hoogcarspel Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:24:59 +0200 Subject: Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. As far as I know all the investigations which gave results in favour of TM where suspect. According to the TM-theory I learned in the days I took courses, the different mantras don't cause differences in the level of concentration attained, they are given in order not to disturb the meditators personality and way of life I discussed TM extensively with a very experienced vipassanateacher and he pointed out the disadvantages, being an increase in credulity and a decrease in creativity and criticism due to the overdose of zamatha, which was in perfect accordance with my experience with TM-practitioners (workoholics are not at risk, because they cannot acheive this level) I've known persons who got into serious mental problems (extramural treatment for over a year) because the experience of a moment of deep samadhi disturbed their psychological stability all the TM-teachers I've met only played 'his masters voice' and had very little social skills or psychological insight. I've seen systems of personal bijas in some translated texts of kasmiri zaivaism (I'm sorry I cannot recall which), which could very well explain the secret of the personal TM-mantra. there are groups which use the 'mantra om namo zivaya' the TM way there are have been experiments in the fifties with meditation on a blue vase; the participants also experienced feelings of wellbeing and developed affection for the object. the real number of TM-practicioners is considerably less then the TM-movement claims, because most people stop after a while without telling anyone the argument of mr Sands is a typical example of an argument ad verecundiam and so plain sophistry Sorry to disturb the dream erik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wfsands at MUM.EDU Sat May 13 03:59:56 2000 From: wfsands at MUM.EDU (William F. Sands) Date: Fri, 12 May 00 23:59:56 -0400 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058461.23782.16304276495116875559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Witzel's posting: When Benson's paper comes out we will read it carefully. Clearly the issue should hinge on the scientific evidence, and not on comments beginning with 'isn't it a trifle surprising that...' . This isn't a useful kind of argument, and somewhat surprising coming from someone who has, on countless occasions, urged members of the list to examine the relevant evidence. (Normally one forms an opinion after examining evidence, not before.) While that comment can be set aside as somewhat harmless, I do find objectionable the less-than-subtle insinuation that scientists who conduct scientific research on Transcendental Meditation are in some way lacking in objectivity or honesty. Scientists aren't trained that way, and it is a bit silly to suggest a conspiracy involving several thousand research scientists to alter data (expanding to the 600+ studies to date). (And of course there is the issue of normative data to consider...that indeed would be a trick.) Disagreement on a scientific basis is part of academic life, but this kind of suggestion is a bit beneath such a respected scholar. Witzel uvaca: Isn't it a trifle surprising that some claim and insist that their Mantra (Hare Krishna....), and others that their method (MT) have the best effect, and Benson : both/neither? As I said, I leave the investigation of the METHODS and RESULTS to non-involved, *independent* scientists. For the time being, it seems a little too early to come to conclusions, and certainly so for non-medical people like me. And, please do not rely on my anecdotal reports, but read Benson's paper, due now any day. -- William Sands, PhD 280 Whispering Hills Road Boone, NC 28607 Phone: 828-263-0054 e-mail: wfsands at mum.edu From muthu at MALAYALY.NET Fri May 12 17:59:13 2000 From: muthu at MALAYALY.NET (muthu lakshmy) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 01:59:13 +0800 Subject: A FEW QUESTIONS Message-ID: <161227058440.23782.8859014795599926867.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> dear friends, can anyone answer the following questions for me? 1. who translatead Arabian Nights into Sanskrit? 2. from which text does the phrase "satyam, sivam, sundaram" originate? 3. the complete sloka beginning(?) with " jivo jivasya jivanam..." regards muthu -- ______________________________________________________ Free email for every Malayaly from http://malayaly.net A project by Cyber Collective powered by OutBlaze From MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM Sat May 13 10:11:25 2000 From: MathiasMetzger at AOL.COM (Mathias Metzger) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 06:11:25 -0400 Subject: Assamese Grammar Message-ID: <161227058476.23782.10096478620619565304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An Assamese Primer was also published in the textbook series of the Central Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore: P.N. Dutta Baruah, An Intensive Course in Assamese, Mysore: CIIL, 1980. Best regards Mathias From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 13 13:47:47 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 06:47:47 -0700 Subject: A question on Vedic vANa - 1 Message-ID: <161227058478.23782.9311608953358334945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This may be of interest to your research. Bards in the CT are essentially of two kinds: ciRu-pANan2 holding cIRiyAz (small yAz) & perumpANan2 with pEriyAz. Small uDukkai-type drums and yAz-type stringed instruments are represented in Indus seals. For the seals, E.J.H. Mackay, Further excavations at Mohenjo-Daro, 1937, two volumes. W.A.Fairservis, The Harappan civilization and its writing: A model for the decipherment of the Indus script, 1992. On page 178, the lute or lyre sign is identified as "pAN". and the drum as "paRai". Regards, V. Iyer Dr. S. Palaniappan wrote: <<< Related to my research into the ancient Indian bards, I would like some information from Vedic/IE experts. However, before I pose the question, I need to present some information which I shall split into two posts to stay within the size limit. I am interested in the relationship, if any, between DEDR 4068 (Ta. pAN song, melody; pANar caste; praise, flattery; pANan2 an ancient class of Tamil bards and minstrels; pANi song, melody, music; pANu song, paN music; paNNu (paNNi-) to sing in an instrument (as a tune), tune, tune musical instruments; paNNal tuning the lute strings according to the required melody; ) and Vedic vANa' (instrumental) music, voice; vA'NI music, sound, voice; plur. choir of singers or musicians. Kuiper in his Rigvedic Loanwords, IJDL, v.21, no.2, p. 18-19, says "The restriction of these words to music is not favourable to the proposed connection with bhan- "to say" (PMW 32, cf. Tam. paNi - to say, speak, declare"). Note Tam. paNNu- "to sing in an instrument, as a tune"". In his Aryans in the Rigveda, Kuiper reiterates his view that bANa, vANa, and vANI do not have a plausible IA etymology (p. 79-80). He also says "A development v>b within Indo-Aryan can probably be excluded for Vedic in general. A few cases with a secondary b in zaunaka are due to a less correct transmission of this text and may stem from a much later (post-Vedic) period. Cf.6.16.1 AbayU'-, 10.2.17 bANa'- 'music' .The general tendency at all times was to 'sanskritize' words with the foreign phoneme b by changing it to v or bh (p.33) We have an interesting parrallel in the historical period in the south of India which is given in the second part of this discussion. >>> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 13 14:07:27 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 07:07:27 -0700 Subject: Indological Conference Message-ID: <161227058481.23782.10938151179287861954.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< XXIst ZOGRAPH CONFERENCE "TRADITIONAL INDIAN TEXTS: PROBLEMS OF INTERPRETATION" St Petersburg, April 24-26, 2000 Venue: Dvortsovaya nab., 18, Institute of Oriental Studies (Novomikhailovsky Palace), the Green Hall. April 24, 2000. Monday 11.00 [...] Nikita V.GUROV (SPb State University). On the subsrtatum heritage in the vocabulary of the Rgveda (in connection with recent works by F.B.J.Kuiper and M.Witzel). >>> Dear Professor, Dr. N. V. Gurov from 1960s have been writing about Dravidian in Indus civilization. (Towards the linguistic interpretation of the proto Indian texts, J. of Tamil studies (Madras), 1968). Is Gurov's Dravidijskie elementy v tekstax rannix Samsxit (1987) available in English? Would be thankful for his email and mailing address. Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat May 13 06:36:08 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 07:36:08 +0100 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: Impact of mantra recital, etc. In-Reply-To: <20000513045101.19167.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058473.23782.13981660440919219933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This thread is now closed. Please do not post further on this topic. The different points of view of the discussants are clear enough, and no further important information is likely to be offered at this time. The subject is - as usual - interesting, but it is not properly part of the study of classical India, at least in the manner in which it has been being discussed. Best wishes to all, -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Sat May 13 16:59:46 2000 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 16:59:46 +0000 Subject: A Hindu Temple Library In-Reply-To: <20000513011328.87288.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058483.23782.1306839952782435706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May 13, 2000 RE: Our Hindu "Self Knowledge" Library ATT: Indology Scholars & Friends I have been given the task of coming up with a recommended list of books and respective description for initiating a lending library for our Hindu Temple visitors located in Northern Virginia, USA. Visitors and worshippers at this Temple are primarily are of Hindu faith who have migrated to USA, mostly from India, Bangla Desh, Nepal, West Indies, etc. Most are professionals and business persons or first generation children of such immigrants. I seek any recommendation and advice from those of you who are well wishers of this initiative, knowledgeable of such books as we seek . We have established two goals for the library, and have also established some criterions for identifying approximately 50 or so books in phase I and possibly also some CDs and Videos for the "core" holding of our library. which will be housed in the Temple itself initially at least. 1. PURPOSE OF HINDU TEMPLE LIBRARY : There are two purposes have been established. First, seeking of self-knowledge among ourselves who are members and visitors of the Hindu Temple, especially our children, and our elders, through the library material and through small group discussions among ourselves, and with experts and scholars from time to time, and use of our temple's internet facilities. Second, in the spirit of "inter-cultural" harmony, these books might serve as educational material for some our neighbors and friends of other faiths who seek to know more about cultural and spiritual roots of Hinduism. We intend to pursue these two goals with a firm commitment to a non-proselytizing environment , and in a spirit of "inter-cultural" harmony.. Matter of fact, we never seek any of our neighbors and friends who are of other faiths, ever to give up their own. But we encourage self-knowledge of their own inherited faith and learn about Hinduism, and historic, philosophical and spiritual matters in a spirit of inter-cultural harmony peace, and tolerance among neighbors and friends. 2. SELECTION OF OUR BOOKS : We seek books that give scholarly but readable interpretations of Hindu "classics" such as the Gita, Upanishad, Ramayana and Mahabharata, etc. We also seek well written biographical works of holi persons, and scholars associated with the Hindu faith. We also seek notable modern works such as scholarly discussions of Gitanjali by Rabindra Nath Tagore, India Nobel Laureate for literature. Other topics relating to spirituality, culture and history such as music and other aspects of Hindu culture are appreciated. Some books specially oriented for young readers are most welcome. Lastly, if any of you live near Northern Virginia, we appreciate a personal contact with you if possible. Thanks and appreciate hearing from you. Avi Dey Coordinator, Hindu Temple Library Northern Virginia USA [admin note: changed date from Sat, 13 May 1972 14:46:19 -0400] From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Sat May 13 15:59:47 2000 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 16:59:47 +0100 Subject: muthu lakshm's A FEW QUESTIONS Message-ID: <161227058485.23782.2674181609723945169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The phrase "satya.m ;siva.m sundaram" does not seem to be of Indian origin, although all the ideas it expresses were dear to traditional India and have found ample and beautiful expression in pre-modern Indian literature, especially Sanskrit. The phrase is most probably one of those rare instances of translation of concepts which succeed perfectly. For "Truth, Goodness and Beauty" Sanskrit happened to have exact or almost exact equivalents, which, when put together, formed a short and alliterative triplet (a triplet with more 'punch' and beauty than the original, at least to my ears). The individual words of the triplet happened to be parts of common vocabulary in all literary languages of India. There was already a widespread tradition, especially in Bhakti literature (and there too particularly in Bhakti literature concerning ;Siva), of bringing the ideas of Truth, Goodness and Beauty together (especially the first and the third). As a result, I would guess, when someone on the Indian scene (in the late nineteenth century or early twentieth century?) used the phrase 'satya, ;siva and sundara' to capture a European philosopher's way of thinking (a profound insight and philosophy of life in itself), the phrase was taken over by Indian intellectuals as if it had no foreign origin. Something of which all ingredients were present in Indian thinking and languages simply came to the forefront as a new and powerful combination. Durga Bhagwat (= Bhagavata), in a Marathi article of hers (included in one of the collections of her essays, to which I cannot provide a precise reference at present), has tried to trace the origin of satya.m ;siva.m sundaram. As far as I recall, (a) she does not come to a definite conclusion other than the one with which my preceding paragraph began, namely that the phrase is most probably a translation, and (b) she does not offer the speculation I have offered as to why the phrase was so quickly assimilated into Indian thinking. One of the most revealing and enjoyable instances of the use of the phrase is V. Raghavan's verse: dharmo brahma raso naama ;siva.m satya.m ca sundaram / yaa tridhaa tattvam uuce taa.m sa.msk.rta-pratibhaa.m numa.h // (a verse printed at the back of the early issues of the periodical Sa.msk.rta-pratibhaa, which Raghavan used to edit for the Sahitya Akademy of India; this periodical is still published and is one of the better avenues for publication of modern Skt literature). Given Rabindranath Tagore's general philosophy of life, I would guess that he played a significant role in the popularization of "satya.m ;siva.m sundaram". (Could Tagore have been the one who translated the concept-triplet for the first time?) However, I have no competence to follow up on this guess. >1. who translatead Arabian Nights into Sanskrit?< Please check V. >Raghavan's writings on modern Sanskrit literature, the list in M. >Krishnamachari's _History of Classical Sanskrit Literature_, etc. Ashok Aklujkar From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sun May 14 00:18:29 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 13 May 00 17:18:29 -0700 Subject: sculptural terminology: tribanga, trivanka Message-ID: <161227058488.23782.11022185329878505996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to Vidyasankar Sundaresan for clarifying and amplifying the sculptural term "Tribhanga." The actual image itself (presumably Indonesian) may be view at: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/troyoga?d&.flabel=fld3&.src=ph Any further comments would be well appreciated. Best regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 14 08:02:34 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 01:02:34 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058498.23782.10780282494097683079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. The stories of the Sangama brothers' Telugu origin and conversion to >Islam >etc. are not supported by epigraphic evidence. Nor is there much epigraphical evidence for the Kannada origin of the Sangama brothers. There has been a pretty long history of debate over Kannada vs. Telugu origins. Linguistic pride in the post-Independence period has added to it. Whether the first dynasty of Vijayanagara is of Kakatiya origin or Hoysala origin remains an issue on which much can be said on both sides. Warangal university keeps producing people who say they were Telugu and Dharwad university has people arguing for Kannada origins. The funny thing is that such a linguistic dichotomy was probably not even significant for the people who actually lived in the 14th century. >2. While there is epigraphic evidence of a Jaina establishment at Sringeri >in >the 12th century, there is no evidence of a Sankara monastey at Sringeri >prior to 1346 when the vijayotsava of Vijayanagara was celebrated. The >hitherto known epigraphical evidence allows only the conclusion that >Sankara >was not the founder of Sringeri's famous matha. Well, there is a small Jain settlement in Sringeri even today, and the Sankara matha actually helps maintain a Jain Tirthankara temple there. And arguments from absence of evidence have to be carefully made. Kulke's statements are based on an acceptance of Hacker's statements regarding Vidyaranya's "Kultur-politik" after the invasion of south India by the Khilji armies. Sadly though, if you read Hacker's original paper in his Kleine Schriften collection, you will find that the most unbridled speculations are presented as if they are careful conclusions. Hacker does not hedge his statements, or even use words like "probably" or "seems like" or "may be". He simply claims, "Er (= Vidyaranya) schuf Fiktionen." He is remarkably silent about what evidence he has for what the fiction is and what Vidyaranya is supposed to have propagated. He thinks Vidyaranya used his political connections to install Vidyasankara, his guru, as the head of a newly established matha, and pretended that the monastery was an old one. Kulke simply modifies this a bit, and thinks Vidyasankara himself was probably more responsible than Vidyaranya. Anyone who has a little bit of familiarity with the workings of guru-shishya lineages should know that this is not how things work. And Sringeri is so far away from both the old Hoysala capital and the new Vijayanagara capital, that one wonders why these people had to go and establish their new monastery there. Why not put up an establishment in Hampi itself, and pretend that that was the old matha? Both Hacker and Kulke have also ignored other available evidence. There are pre-Vijayanagara inscriptions available from the vicinity of Sringeri, that mention Vidyasankara. For example, Antonio Rigopoulos's 1998 book on Dattatreya (SUNY press) describes a seal from the early 13th century found in Shimoga, that also salutes Gaudapada, Govinda and Sankara. To say that Vidyaranya or Vidyasankara simply pretended that their matha had been established by Sankara, simply in order to legitimate a new Hindu empire, is to ignore some available data, and rely for the rest on speculation. I'm actually surprised that Kulke does not seem to have gone through the Epigraphica Carnatica more thoroughly. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 14 05:29:21 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 01:29:21 -0400 Subject: zaGkara digvijaya and cilappatikAram Message-ID: <161227058495.23782.16230831038795238865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a question related to the story of Hastamalaka in the zaGkara digvijaya of mAdhava. The story of Hastamalaka, according to Tapasyananda's translation, is given in the following words (pp.156-157). "Once there lived on the banks of the Yamuna a highly evolved saint who had overcome the bondage of Samsara. One day a Brahmana woman who had come for bath in the Yamuna left her two-year-old child on the bank and got into the stream with her companions. The child, slowly crawling from the place where he had been left, fell into the river. Picking up the dead body of the child, the women came near the hermitage of the ascetic and began to cry aloud in great distress. Taking pity on the mother, the Yogi, by his psychic powers, entered into the body of the inert child, who rose up as Hastamalaka." The motif of a higher being entering the body of a dead child in response to motherly pleas is found earlier in Tamil cilappatikAram. Does anybody know if such a motif is found in any Sanskrit, Pali, or Prakrit texts prior to 5th century AD? Thanks in advance for any references. Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun May 14 05:29:22 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 01:29:22 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058493.23782.17793994952303969322.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In his article, "Maharajas, mahants, and historians. Reflections on the historiography of early Vijayanagara and Sringeri" (pp. 120 -143 in the book "Vijayanagara - City and Empire" ed. by A. L. Dallapiccola et. al, vol.1, 1985), Hermann Kulke presents arguments showing the following. 1. The stories of the Sangama brothers' Telugu origin and conversion to Islam etc. are not supported by epigraphic evidence. 2. While there is epigraphic evidence of a Jaina establishment at Sringeri in the 12th century, there is no evidence of a Sankara monastey at Sringeri prior to 1346 when the vijayotsava of Vijayanagara was celebrated. The hitherto known epigraphical evidence allows only the conclusion that Sankara was not the founder of Sringeri's famous matha. I would very much like to know if there have been any scholarly arguments challenging Kulke's findings? On a related issue, what are the earliest documents attesting to any interaction between Vedantadesika and Vidyaranya? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun May 14 10:16:47 2000 From: jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (James Nye) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 05:16:47 -0500 Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts Message-ID: <161227058500.23782.6988418463066466187.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Twenty titles were published in twenty-three volumes between 1958 and 1970 in the series "Bauddha Samskrta granthavali." In order by series volume number they are: Vol. 1 Lalita-vistarah / Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana samskrtah. 1958. 346 p. ; 25 cm. Vol. 2 Samadhirajasutram / edited by P. L. Vaidya. 1961. xx, 376 p. ; 26 cm. (Bibl. [xix]-xx.) Vol. 3 Saddharmalankavatarasutram / edited by P.L. Vaidya. 1963. xxvi, 280 p. ; 25 cm. (Introd. in English by Sitansusekhar Bagchi.) Vol. 4 Astasahasrikaprajnaparamita / Haribhadraviracitaya Alokakhyavyakhyaya sahita ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana sucyadibhih samskrta. 1960. xxxviii, 579, [2] p. ; 25 cm. Vol. 5 Gandavyuhasutra / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1960. xxxii, 450 p. : facsim. ; 26 cm. Vol. 6 Saddharmapundarikasutram / edited by P. L. Vaidya. 1960. xvi, 298 p. ; 26 cm. Vol. 7 Dasabhumikasutram / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana bhumikadibhiralankrtam ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana pariskrtam. 1967. 23, xx, 147 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and index.) Vol. 8 Suvarnaprabhasasutra / edited by Dr. S. Bagchi. 1967. 18, 16, 127, 7, 15 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref.) Vol. 9 Sriguhyasamajatantram / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana pariskrtam evam sampaditam. 1965. xviii, 177 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and index.) Vol. 10 Nagarjuniyam Madhyamakasastram : Acaryacandrakirtiviracitaya Prasannapadakhyavyakhyaya samvalitam / Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana samskrtam. 1960. xxxi, 321 p. ; 26 cm. (Includes Nagarjuna's Vigrahavyavartani edited by K. P. Jayaswal and R. Sankrtyayana and the Ratnavali edited by G. Tucci.) Vol. 11 Siksa-samuccayah / Santidevaviracitah ; Sriparasuramasarmana parisistadibhih samskrta. 1961. xvi, 208 p. ; 26 cm. (Bibl. [xv]-xvi.) Vol. 12 Bodhicaryavatarah / Santidevaviracitah ; Prajnakaramativiracitaya Panjikakhyavyakhyaya samvalitah, Sriparasuramasarmana slokasucyadibhih samskrtah. 1960. xx, 309 p. ; 26 cm. (Includes indexes.) Vol. 13 Mahayana-sutralankara of Asanga / edited by S. Bagchi. 1970. 21, [328] p. ; 25 cm. (Summary in Hindi. Includes bibl. ref. and index.) Vol. 14, 15 Mahavastu Avadana / edited by Dr. S. Bagchi. 1970- v. <1-2, > ; 25 cm. (Includes index and bibl. ref.) Vol. 16 Mulasarvastivadavinayavastu / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana sampaditam. 1967-1970. 2 v. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref.) Vol. 17, 18 Mahayana-sutra-sangrahah / Sriparasuramasarmana pathantara-suci-tippanyadibhih pariskrtah. 1961-1964. 2 v. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and indexes.) Vol. 19 Avadana-sataka / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xii, 306 p. ; 25 cm. Vol. 20 Divyavadana / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xii, 548 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes index.) Vol. 21 Jataka-mala / Arya Sura ; ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xvi, 320 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes index.) Vol. 22, 23 Avadana-kalpalata / Kasmirikakavi-Ksemendraviracita ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana sampadita. 1959. 2 v. (xvi, 599 p.) ; 25 cm. (Includes index.) >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:32:54 -0400 >>From: Rosati >>Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts >> >>Greetings- >> >>I am trying to locate copies of texts in the "Buddhist Sanskrit Texts" >>series from the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga that was done in the late 50's >>early 60's. The main editor was P L Vaidya. There are a couple of them >>listed on bibliofind and abebooks, but I was wondering if anyone knows if >>there are any other sources? Also is there a complete list of volumes in >>this series anywhere? >> >>Thank you >> >>Dante Rosati From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 14 15:25:41 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 08:25:41 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058502.23782.8669101479540177471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >1. The stories of the Sangama brothers' Telugu origin and conversion to >Islam etc. are not supported by epigraphic evidence. >2. While there is epigraphic evidence of a Jaina establishment at Sringeri >in the 12th century, there is no evidence of a Sankara monastey at Sringeri >prior to 1346 when the vijayotsava of Vijayanagara was celebrated. The >hitherto known epigraphical evidence >allows only the conclusion that Sankara was not the founder of Sringeri's >famous matha. >I would very much like to know if there have been any scholarly arguments >challenging Kulke's findings? Don't know any academic works challenging Hacker & Kulke; On the other hand, the discipline of Indology seems to be totally unaware of the Tamil legends upon which zaGkara's life myths are spun: many zaGkaran myths emanate from tamil saivaism. Hacker says that it is likely that zaGkara is a Vaishnavaite and the saivaite Vidyaranya created the life legends of zaGkara in the 14th century. p.190, Kulke and Rothermund, A history of India, 1986 "Vidyaranya (whose name was Madhava before his initiation as an ascetic) and his brother Sayana pursued a deliberate policy of a religious and cultural revival in Southern India after the impact of Islamic invasion. They wanted to highlight the importance of the old Vedic texts and Brahminical codes. Sayana's commentary on the Rigveda is regarded as the most authoritative intrpretation of this Veda, even today. His brother Vidyaranya emphasized Shankara's philosophy which provided a unified ideology of Hinduism (see p. 139). It may be that he invented the story of Shankara's great tour of India and of the establishment of the four great monasteries in the four corners of the country (see p. 139). If he did not invent it, he at least saw to it would gain universal currency ..." Paul Hacker's papers originally in German are conveniently available in English translation by Halbfass.(Philology and Confrontation, Paul Hacker on traditional and modern Vedanta). P. Hacker, p.29 "These dates, taken together with the absence of epigraphic evidence for zaGkara maThas before the fourteenth century, I explain as follows: After Vijayanagara was devastated by Muslims and a general reconstruction was required, Vidyaranya, who was minister of the king of that empire, attempted a sort of deliberate Hindu cultural politics [14] together with his brother Sayana. [...] By means of legends which he created, he [Vidyaranya] made of zaGkara, whose philosophy he followed but who could never become popular with his elevated, exacting thoughts, a divine folk-hero who spread his teaching through his digvijaya ("universal conquest") all over India like a victorious conqueror, and whom therefore the Hindu, in his struggles with the powerful drive of Islam, could look up to. That this teaching was the crown of all "ways of seeing" (darzana) of the Aryas and Nastikas- so that all other systems could at least represent partial truths, and hint at that peak of knowledge-this too was exhibited by him: in his "Summary of All Views"(SarvadarzanasaMgraha). Then he went on to establish an institution.: the zaGkara maTha. He created fictions which could hardly be contradicted, the country having been totally devastated by Muslims. He announced that the MaTha was established by zaGkara himself and had continuously existed since then. ..." Hacker continues: "If my description of the figure of VidyAraNya is correct, he might be considered in some sense a predecessor of Vivekananda. For he, too, has made of ZaGkara something quite different from what he was earlier, and that again for purposes of defence, this time against Christianity." (p.30) Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP Sun May 14 00:46:13 2000 From: prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP (Matsumura) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 09:46:13 +0900 Subject: Assamese Grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058490.23782.16782161355555149391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > dear listmembers, > > i?m looking for a assamese grammar (especially in english). > is there any? > any other materials for beginners in learning assamese? > N.K. Guha, Learn Assamese in a Month (New Delhi: Read Well Publications, no date).Rs. 25-00 Hisashi Matsumura From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 14 19:26:54 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 12:26:54 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058506.23782.6177099604733926602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Hacker continues: >"If my description of the figure of VidyAraNya is correct, he >might be considered in some sense a predecessor of Vivekananda. >For he, too, has made of ZaGkara something quite different >from what he was earlier, and that again for purposes of >defence, this time against Christianity." (p.30) And this is precisely where I find Hacker's arguments extremely faulty, with all due respect to his other contributions. Halbfass's choice of title is appropriate indeed. In this particular case, the element of confrontation in Hacker's work has overwhelmed everything else. Borrowing a thought from Hacker himself and extending it, he has wielded his pen like a sword, slashing away at the tradition, viewing the pieces lying in disarray at his feet with a triumphant smile, and leaving later generations with the task of putting together a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces lost or transformed beyond recognition. Hacker's animus towards Vivekananda and other neo-Vedantins leads him to think that Vidyaranya was an early predecessor of the brand of revivalist Hinduism that developed in the 19th century. If however, as others have argued, the medieval Indian did not see the invading forces from outside as "Muslim", in the 19th century sense of the term, one should wonder in what way Vidyaranya supposedly created a defence against Islam. As an Indian, it seems to me that it is a peculiarly 19th-century European search for origins that leads Hacker to reconstruct a mythical Sankara and a mythical Vidyaranya. He then turns around and accuses this mythical Vidyaranya of having said something about Sankara, that does not agree with his own mythical Sankara. A straw-man argument at its best, but nobody seems to want to question any of it. Most academic studies of Sankara and Advaita remain wedded to one of two competing perspectives - an acceptance of or a reaction to the neo-Vedantic ideologies. In the process, Sankara, the man, and Advaita, the tradition, are not allowed to speak for themselves. Vidyaranya suffers the same fate. Textually, the following questions arise. Is the Madhava who wrote Sarvadarsana Sangraha identical to Vidyaranya? Is the Madhava who wrote a Sankaravijaya identical to Vidyaranya? Is the author of Sarvadarsana Sangraha identical with the author of the Sankaravijaya? None of this is really established. I have argued that the Sankaravijaya attribution to Vidyaranya has not been disproved by the arguments hitherto offered, but I can't say that it has been proved either. Be that as it may, does the Sankaravijaya of Madhava claim that Sankara established four mathas in India, one of which was Sringeri? If it turns out that this Sankaravijaya is say, a 15th or 16th century text, what does that say about Vidyaranya, Sankara and Vijayanagara? Does Vidyaranya really try to cast Sankara into what he was not? What evidence is there for this? Does Vidyaranya, or his frequent co-author, Bharati Tirtha, in their undisputed works, have anything to say about Islam, or about constructing philosophical and political defences against it? Go back to Hacker's paper - there is not an iota of discussion of these issues. With reference to Kulke, there is not a single Vijayanagara inscription related to the Sringeri matha, which states that Sankara established that institution. Now, if I want to claim something to which I have no traditonal right, or if my claims are highly contested by other traditional representatives, I will certainly take all the necessary efforts to generate records in my favor. My political connections will certainly come in handy. But if everybody already recognizes me as a rightful claimant, my motivation to prepare new records vanishes. This seems to be the situation with Sringeri and early Vijayanagara. The surprising thing then, is that there is no inscription that explicitly says that Sankara established the Sringeri matha. If this can lead to a conclusion that he did not, it can equally well lead to the conclusion that this tradition was so widely accepted that it did not need to be particularly put down in writing. All the relevant Vijayanagara inscriptions name only Vidyasankara, Bharati Tirtha and Vidyaranya. The affiliation of these people to the tradition of Advaita Vedanta is taken for granted. Their polemics against Vedic Purva Mimamsakas come for equal praise as compared to those against Jainas. How did a tradition that Sankara established that matha arise then? Why not allow for the possibility that this tradition could be of pre-Vijayanagara origin? If as Kulke argues, legitimation of the new Vijayanagara state was the issue, why assume that they needed to bring in Sankara as a new factor? Why not conclude that it was the religious status of Vidyaranya and his immediate predecessors, and their already well known and acknowledged affiliation to the Sankaran tradition, that provided the necessary legitimation of Vijayanagara? Between Hacker and Kulke, they almost postulate a grand conspiracy theory, when things can be explained through much simpler and straightforward reasons, based on local culture and history. I don't say all this just because of my own familial affiliation to the Sringeri tradition. It concerns me that the histories of many Indian traditions get distorted in similar ways. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET Sun May 14 18:57:19 2000 From: dante at POP.INTERPORT.NET (Rosati) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 14:57:19 -0400 Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts Message-ID: <161227058504.23782.17504537343657347318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to James Nye for posting this list of volumes. What I am trying to find out is if any publishers/booksellsers actually stock any of the reprints that were made in the 80's, or if the only hope is continually trawling used book seller networks? Thanks again Dante ----- Original Message ----- From: James Nye To: Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:16 AM Subject: Re: buddhist sanskrit texts > Twenty titles were published in twenty-three volumes between 1958 and 1970 > in the series "Bauddha Samskrta granthavali." In order by series volume > number they are: > > Vol. 1 Lalita-vistarah / Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana > samskrtah. 1958. 346 p. ; 25 cm. > > Vol. 2 Samadhirajasutram / edited by P. L. Vaidya. 1961. xx, 376 p. > ; 26 cm. (Bibl. [xix]-xx.) > > Vol. 3 Saddharmalankavatarasutram / edited by P.L. > Vaidya. 1963. xxvi, 280 p. ; 25 cm. (Introd. in English by Sitansusekhar > Bagchi.) > > Vol. 4 Astasahasrikaprajnaparamita / Haribhadraviracitaya > Alokakhyavyakhyaya sahita ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana sucyadibhih > samskrta. 1960. xxxviii, 579, [2] p. ; 25 cm. > > Vol. 5 Gandavyuhasutra / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1960. xxxii, 450 p. : > facsim. ; 26 cm. > > Vol. 6 Saddharmapundarikasutram / edited by P. L. Vaidya. 1960. xvi, > 298 p. ; 26 cm. > > Vol. 7 Dasabhumikasutram / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana > bhumikadibhiralankrtam ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana > pariskrtam. 1967. 23, xx, 147 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and index.) > > Vol. 8 Suvarnaprabhasasutra / edited by Dr. S. Bagchi. 1967. 18, 16, > 127, 7, 15 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref.) > > Vol. 9 Sriguhyasamajatantram / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana > pariskrtam evam sampaditam. 1965. xviii, 177 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. > ref. and index.) > > Vol. 10 Nagarjuniyam Madhyamakasastram : Acaryacandrakirtiviracitaya > Prasannapadakhyavyakhyaya samvalitam / Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana > samskrtam. 1960. xxxi, 321 p. ; 26 cm. (Includes Nagarjuna's > Vigrahavyavartani edited by K. P. Jayaswal and R. Sankrtyayana and the > Ratnavali edited by G. Tucci.) > > Vol. 11 Siksa-samuccayah / Santidevaviracitah ; Sriparasuramasarmana > parisistadibhih samskrta. 1961. xvi, 208 p. ; 26 cm. (Bibl. [xv]-xvi.) > > Vol. 12 Bodhicaryavatarah / Santidevaviracitah ; > Prajnakaramativiracitaya Panjikakhyavyakhyaya samvalitah, > Sriparasuramasarmana slokasucyadibhih samskrtah. 1960. xx, 309 p. ; 26 > cm. (Includes indexes.) > > Vol. 13 Mahayana-sutralankara of Asanga / edited by S. > Bagchi. 1970. 21, [328] p. ; 25 cm. (Summary in Hindi. Includes bibl. > ref. and index.) > > Vol. 14, 15 Mahavastu Avadana / edited by Dr. S. Bagchi. 1970- v. > <1-2, > ; 25 cm. (Includes index and bibl. ref.) > > Vol. 16 Mulasarvastivadavinayavastu / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana > sampaditam. 1967-1970. 2 v. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref.) > > Vol. 17, 18 Mahayana-sutra-sangrahah / Sriparasuramasarmana > pathantara-suci-tippanyadibhih pariskrtah. 1961-1964. 2 v. ; 25 > cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and indexes.) > > Vol. 19 Avadana-sataka / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xii, 306 p. ; 25 cm. > > Vol. 20 Divyavadana / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xii, 548 p. ; 25 > cm. (Includes index.) > > Vol. 21 Jataka-mala / Arya Sura ; ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xvi, 320 > p. ; 25 cm. (Includes index.) > > Vol. 22, 23 Avadana-kalpalata / Kasmirikakavi-Ksemendraviracita ; > Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana sampadita. 1959. 2 v. (xvi, 599 p.) ; 25 > cm. (Includes index.) > > >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:32:54 -0400 > >>From: Rosati > >>Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts > >> > >>Greetings- > >> > >>I am trying to locate copies of texts in the "Buddhist Sanskrit Texts" > >>series from the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga that was done in the late 50's > >>early 60's. The main editor was P L Vaidya. There are a couple of them > >>listed on bibliofind and abebooks, but I was wondering if anyone knows if > >>there are any other sources? Also is there a complete list of volumes in > >>this series anywhere? > >> > >>Thank you > >> > >>Dante Rosati > From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 14 23:46:11 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sun, 14 May 00 16:46:11 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058509.23782.10566920788617951777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >And Sringeri is so far away from both the old Hoysala capital and the new >Vijayanagara capital, that one wonders why these people had to go and >establish their new monastery there. Why not put up an >establishment in Hampi itself, and pretend that that was the old matha? Hampi was chosen because of the rock croppings, etc., Sringeri is close to HaLebiD, the Hoysala capital, isn't it? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rg.thomas at UWS.EDU.AU Mon May 15 02:59:27 2000 From: rg.thomas at UWS.EDU.AU (Richard Thomas) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 03:59:27 +0100 Subject: vehicles of Brahma Message-ID: <161227058511.23782.6310431245613566429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know of a literary reference to Brahma being associated with a bear? I am investigating the archaeology of a 10th century Buddhist temple in SE Asia and in particular the vidyaraja figures that appear as four temple guardians. The four stand on animals which represent the crushing of the various gods who are difficult to convert. Three of these are (at their highest level) crushing the vehicles of Narayana, Sakra and Mahesvara but I do not understand the reference to Brahma represented as a bear (or beast) which would seem to be be implied in the fourth of these four figures. Any references to a literary justification for this association would be very helpful. Richard Thomas From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon May 15 10:13:23 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 06:13:23 -0400 Subject: address of V.N. Jha, Univ. of Pune In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058519.23782.17824612342999075721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the email address for Professor V.N. Jha: "Prof. V. N. Jha" Best, Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 15 May 2000, Anna-Pya [iso-8859-1] Sj?din wrote: > Dear list members, > > I wonder if any one know the e-mail address, or other, of V. N. Jha at the > University of Pune. > Thank you very much > > Anna-Pya Sjodin > University of Uppsala > From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Mon May 15 02:52:35 2000 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 08:22:35 +0530 Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts Message-ID: <161227058513.23782.17899023454714214035.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi, This kind of old books are xeroxed and made available.Please contact: Regards Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Professor of Sanskrit & Director Centre for Vedanta Studies University of Kerala Trivandrum,Kerala,India,695581 ---------- > From: Rosati > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: buddhist sanskrit texts > Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 12:27 AM > > Many thanks to James Nye for posting this list of volumes. What I am trying > to find out is if any publishers/booksellsers actually stock any of the > reprints that were made in the 80's, or if the only hope is continually > trawling used book seller networks? > > Thanks again > > Dante > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Nye > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:16 AM > Subject: Re: buddhist sanskrit texts > > > > Twenty titles were published in twenty-three volumes between 1958 and 1970 > > in the series "Bauddha Samskrta granthavali." In order by series volume > > number they are: > > > > Vol. 1 Lalita-vistarah / Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana > > samskrtah. 1958. 346 p. ; 25 cm. > > > > Vol. 2 Samadhirajasutram / edited by P. L. Vaidya. 1961. xx, 376 p. > > ; 26 cm. (Bibl. [xix]-xx.) > > > > Vol. 3 Saddharmalankavatarasutram / edited by P.L. > > Vaidya. 1963. xxvi, 280 p. ; 25 cm. (Introd. in English by > Sitansusekhar > > Bagchi.) > > > > Vol. 4 Astasahasrikaprajnaparamita / Haribhadraviracitaya > > Alokakhyavyakhyaya sahita ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana sucyadibhih > > samskrta. 1960. xxxviii, 579, [2] p. ; 25 cm. > > > > Vol. 5 Gandavyuhasutra / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1960. xxxii, 450 p. : > > facsim. ; 26 cm. > > > > Vol. 6 Saddharmapundarikasutram / edited by P. L. Vaidya. 1960. > xvi, > > 298 p. ; 26 cm. > > > > Vol. 7 Dasabhumikasutram / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana > > bhumikadibhiralankrtam ; Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana > > pariskrtam. 1967. 23, xx, 147 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and > index.) > > > > Vol. 8 Suvarnaprabhasasutra / edited by Dr. S. Bagchi. 1967. 18, > 16, > > 127, 7, 15 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref.) > > > > Vol. 9 Sriguhyasamajatantram / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana > > pariskrtam evam sampaditam. 1965. xviii, 177 p. ; 25 cm. (Includes > bibl. > > ref. and index.) > > > > Vol. 10 Nagarjuniyam Madhyamakasastram : Acaryacandrakirtiviracitaya > > Prasannapadakhyavyakhyaya samvalitam / Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana > > samskrtam. 1960. xxxi, 321 p. ; 26 cm. (Includes Nagarjuna's > > Vigrahavyavartani edited by K. P. Jayaswal and R. Sankrtyayana and the > > Ratnavali edited by G. Tucci.) > > > > Vol. 11 Siksa-samuccayah / Santidevaviracitah ; Sriparasuramasarmana > > parisistadibhih samskrta. 1961. xvi, 208 p. ; 26 cm. (Bibl. [xv]-xvi.) > > > > Vol. 12 Bodhicaryavatarah / Santidevaviracitah ; > > Prajnakaramativiracitaya Panjikakhyavyakhyaya samvalitah, > > Sriparasuramasarmana slokasucyadibhih samskrtah. 1960. xx, 309 p. ; 26 > > cm. (Includes indexes.) > > > > Vol. 13 Mahayana-sutralankara of Asanga / edited by S. > > Bagchi. 1970. 21, [328] p. ; 25 cm. (Summary in Hindi. Includes bibl. > > ref. and index.) > > > > Vol. 14, 15 Mahavastu Avadana / edited by Dr. S. Bagchi. 1970- v. > > <1-2, > ; 25 cm. (Includes index and bibl. ref.) > > > > Vol. 16 Mulasarvastivadavinayavastu / Srisitamsusekharavagacisarmana > > sampaditam. 1967-1970. 2 v. ; 25 cm. (Includes bibl. ref.) > > > > Vol. 17, 18 Mahayana-sutra-sangrahah / Sriparasuramasarmana > > pathantara-suci-tippanyadibhih pariskrtah. 1961-1964. 2 v. ; 25 > > cm. (Includes bibl. ref. and indexes.) > > > > Vol. 19 Avadana-sataka / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xii, 306 p. ; 25 > cm. > > > > Vol. 20 Divyavadana / ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xii, 548 p. ; 25 > > cm. (Includes index.) > > > > Vol. 21 Jataka-mala / Arya Sura ; ed. by P. L. Vaidya. 1959. xvi, > 320 > > p. ; 25 cm. (Includes index.) > > > > Vol. 22, 23 Avadana-kalpalata / Kasmirikakavi-Ksemendraviracita ; > > Vaidyopahvasriparasuramasarmana sampadita. 1959. 2 v. (xvi, 599 p.) ; 25 > > cm. (Includes index.) > > > > >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 04:32:54 -0400 > > >>From: Rosati > > >>Subject: buddhist sanskrit texts > > >> > > >>Greetings- > > >> > > >>I am trying to locate copies of texts in the "Buddhist Sanskrit Texts" > > >>series from the Mithila Institute, Darbhanga that was done in the late > 50's > > >>early 60's. The main editor was P L Vaidya. There are a couple of them > > >>listed on bibliofind and abebooks, but I was wondering if anyone knows > if > > >>there are any other sources? Also is there a complete list of volumes in > > >>this series anywhere? > > >> > > >>Thank you > > >> > > >>Dante Rosati > > From annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE Mon May 15 10:24:10 2000 From: annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE (=?utf-8?Q?Anna-Pya_Sj=C3=B6din?=) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 11:24:10 +0100 Subject: address of V.N. Jha, Univ. of Pune Message-ID: <161227058517.23782.15754285253409584476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I wonder if any one know the e-mail address, or other, of V. N. Jha at the University of Pune. Thank you very much Anna-Pya Sjodin University of Uppsala From kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN Mon May 15 12:27:41 2000 From: kaykay at GIASBMA.VSNL.NET.IN (K.KRISHNAMURTHY) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 12:27:41 +0000 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke In-Reply-To: <20000514192654.67202.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058515.23782.212160077535156034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe there is a running cotroversy between the Sringeri and the Kanchi maths in that that the Sringeri math does not "rfcognise"the Kanchi math.If both the were indeed established by Adi Sankara there should not have been this attitude between these two maths.Probably both the maths came into existence laterand being aware of the same leasing to the one-up-man-ship.How about examining the genealogical records maintained by these maths?The acharya who passed away in 1994 is claimed to be the 68th mathadhipati.It is also probable that if the sankaracharyas could trace their lineage to Adi sankara the maths they head also should have similar claim. Krish. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 15 20:32:53 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 13:32:53 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058524.23782.14967343830253371839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prasad Velusamy wrote: >Hampi was chosen because of the rock croppings, etc., Maybe I should clarify. 1. Vijayanagara = 14th century, doesn't need any more proof than what has been published scores of times. 2. Hacker's thesis - Sringeri matha = 14th century, by Vidyaranya. 3. Kulke's thesis - Sringeri matha = 14th century, by Vidyasankara. The idea is that the matha was established and claimed to be an old institution, primarily to legitimate the newly established Hindu state. It is left unsaid that the newly established state reciprocally legitimated the matha. My question - If it is an issue of such mutual legitimation based on good old brahma-kshatra alliances, why choose a spot so far away from the new capital, in order to establish a new matha? I don't doubt that there were military strategic reasons for Hampi as the new capital. That is not an issue. Why not put up a matha also right there, or somewhere nearby? If you look at the local data more closely, there is indeed a matha in Hampi/Hospet, called the Virupaksha matha, reputedly established by Vidyaranya. But that has traditionally always been known as a branch of Sringeri matha, not the other way round. On Hacker's and Kulke's showing, Sringeri matha and Virupaksha matha would be more or less equal in age and origin. Why has the matha in the capital come to be called a branch of the matha that is so far away? If one agrees that the Sringeri matha had been existing prior to the 14th century, everything falls into place and makes sense. >Sringeri is close to HaLebiD, the Hoysala capital, >isn't it? No. It is almost as far away from Halebid as it is from Hampi. Hampi is in Bellary district, close to the Andhra Pradesh border. Halebid is in Tumkur district, close to Bangalore. Sringeri is in Chickmagalur district, closer to the West coast, and nearer to Mangalore and Udipi. Also, if I remember right, Kulke says something about Sringeri being on the way from the old Hoysala capital to the new Vijayanagara capital. If you look at a map, you will see that this would entail a long detour, more than doubling the distance and time of travel. To get from Halebid to Hampi, you can cut straight across, through Chitradurga or Davangere. You would not want to enter what is called Malenadu, and scale the higher hills of the Western ghats. If you want to make a pilgrimage tour, that is a different issue, but no strategic military or political reasons present themselves, to commend such an itinerary. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 15 20:47:44 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 13:47:44 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058526.23782.12068450189943066591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe there is a running cotroversy between the Sringeri and the >Kanchi maths in that that the Sringeri math does not "rfcognise"the Kanchi >math.If both the were indeed established by Adi Sankara there should not >have been this attitude between these two maths.Probably both the maths >came into existence laterand being aware of the same leasing to the >one-up-man-ship. There are other reasons for all this, which I won't get into here. My paper on the Sankaravijaya texts discusses this controversy in painful detail. Do wait till the IJHS (International Journal of Hindu Studies) resumes publication. And I would not second-guess attitudes either. Fights between brothers or cousins are often more ferocious than those between mere neighbours or strangers. And just for argument's sake, how about giving some credit to the possibility that maybe one was established by Sankara, and another came later? >How about examining the genealogical records maintained by >these maths?The acharya who passed away in 1994 is claimed to be the 68th >mathadhipati.It is also probable that if the sankaracharyas could trace >their lineage to Adi sankara the maths they head also should have similar >claim. Does not follow. One can distinguish between the official list of heads of a matha and the actual Guru-Sishya lineage of its current mathadhipatis. See my article on the Jyotirmath succession on the Indology website. This becomes a rather emotional issue for most people, but the genealogical records of the Kanchi matha are refuted by independent evidence even for the 17th and 18th centuries, i.e. less than 400 years ago. And of course, its claim that Sankara lived in the 5th century BC can be easily rejected. But that opens up a whole new can of worms in Indian history. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 15 22:11:00 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 15:11:00 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058528.23782.12017559663402028350.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Sringeri is close to HaLebiD, the Hoysala capital, >>isn't it? VidyaSankar Sundaresan: >No. Distance, in terms of miles/km, from Sringeri to Belur, Halebid is much less than to Hampi. No Hindu monk would put their ashram in the destroyed political capital. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From shrao at NYX.NET Mon May 15 22:36:47 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 16:36:47 -0600 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke In-Reply-To: <20000515221100.78636.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058530.23782.6213304964275576747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 15 May 2000, Prasad Velusamy wrote: > >>Sringeri is close to HaLebiD, the Hoysala capital, > >>isn't it? > > VidyaSankar Sundaresan: > >No. > > Distance, in terms of miles/km, from Sringeri to Belur, Halebid > is much less than to Hampi. No Hindu monk would put > their ashram in the destroyed political capital. ?? Am I missing something here? Hampi was sacked (upon the fall of the Vijayanagara kingdom under Ramaraya) in 1565 CE, which would be almost 200 years after Vidyaranya, who would have needed to be some sort of soothsayer to know not to put his institution there! Regards, Shrisha Rao From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon May 15 23:36:21 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 19:36:21 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058535.23782.13914402368891592746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/14/2000 2:28:10 PM Central Daylight Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > If however, as others have > argued, the medieval Indian did not see the invading forces from outside as > "Muslim", in the 19th century sense of the term, one should wonder in what > way Vidyaranya supposedly created a defence against Islam. I am not clear about what is meant by the above. Are we to understand that the invading forces were simply seen as aliens and not as followers of a different religion, Islam, with negative impact on Hindu institutions? In this connection, the following may be of interest. "Whatever modern historians rationalizing about medieval Indian happenings might say, we have contemporary epigraphic evidence to let us into the feelings of the Hindus against the Muslims: "The times were Tulukkan times; the devadAna lands of the gods were taxed with kuDimai; the temple worship, however, had to be conducted without any reduction; the uzavu or cultivation of the temple lands were (sic) done by turns by the tenants of the village; at this juncture kampaNa uDaiyAr came (on his southern campaign), destroyed the Tulukkan, established orderly government throughout the country and appointed many chiefs (nAyakkamAr) for inspection and supervision in order that the worship in all temples might be revived regularly as of old." (History of Sri Vaishnavism in the Tamil Country by N. Jegadeesan, pp. 270-271) The ARE inscription reference is 64 of 1916. turukkar or tulukkar originally meant Turks (as used by kampan2) but later came to mean Muslims in general. The word tulukkan is thus related to Skt. turuSka. Interestingly, Tapasyananda's translation of the prologue of Sankaravijaya has the following: "It may be that this poetical work of Navakalidasa (modern Kalidasa), though artistic, lofty and meritorious, and though viewed with approval by cultured and scholarly men and holy personages, none-the-less meets with carping criticism at the hands of perverse scholars and evil-minded poets, just as the cow, a noble animal, meets with slaughter at the hands of barbarians (Turushkas)" Don't we see a similarity in attitude towards the tulukkar/turuSkas shared by the Tamil inscription and Sankaravijaya? Regards S. Palaniappan From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue May 16 01:39:25 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 19:39:25 -0600 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke, Turks and Hindus , In-Reply-To: <17.599ceca.2651e3f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227058539.23782.8088115444324914769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> a. I'm curious about the Jain inscription found at Shringeri. What does it say? b. Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >turukkar or tulukkar originally meant Turks (as used by kampan2) >but later came to mean Muslims in general. The word tulukkan is >thus related to Skt. turuSka. The word Turk has generally been used in North as opposite of Hindu, both words imply ethnicity. Jain Poet Banarasidas(1586-1643), has written ek ruup Hinduu turuk, duujii dashaa na koy, man kii dvividhaa maanakar, bhaye ek so.n doy .. (itrans transliteration) Trans: Hindus and Turks are same, nobody is another kind. Because they think differently, they have become two from one. Kabir has used the word-pair Hindu and Turk very frequently. The popular term for Muslims then must have been Turk. Word Musalaman probably had not come into use then. ko Hinduu ko turuk kahaavai, ek jimii par rahiye.. Bijak Shabda 30 Who is Hindu, who is Turk? both live on the earth. Yashwant From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue May 16 00:37:28 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 20:37:28 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058537.23782.14136917645516856212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kulke says that the identification of Vidyaranya with Madhavacarya can be derived from his own literary works, i.e., jIvamuktiviveka and parAzara-smRtI. Is Kulke's conclusion justified ? vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Be that as it may, does the > Sankaravijaya of Madhava claim that Sankara established four mathas in > India, one of which was Sringeri? What I find in the translation is that Sankara built temples for Devi in Sringeri and Kanchi. After he ascended the throne of Omniscience, "he left for Badari with some of his disciples, while deputing the others to Sringagiri and other places". This might lead to an interpretation that Sankara established the Sringeri maTha. I wonder if in these discussions the Srivaishnava tradition about Vedantadesika (VD) is taken into account at all. M. Arunachalam discusses some of this in his "tamiz Ilakkiya varalARu -14Am nURRANTu". According to him, VD and Madhava alias Vidyaranya (MV) were classmates in their early years. On his way to Kasi, VD ran into MV on the banks of Tungabhadra. MV, already an ascetic, was also travelling at that time. The ruler, Bukka, told them if they will cure his daughter possessed by an evil spirit, he will reward them with riches. VD declined. But MV performed exorcism on Bukka's daughter, and became Bukka's minister! (N. Jegadeesan says VD was the one who cured the princess. I wonder who is right?) Later, considering the poverty of VD, MV sent a message to VD asking him to come to Vijayanagar and receive some gifts. But VD refused the offer replying with his vairAgyapancaka. According to N. Jegadeesan, VD said in this message that the poverty at Kanchi was better than the riches at Vijayanagar. Later he served as a (remote) arbitrator in a debate between MV and akSobya muni, a dvaitin. After this, there was a controversy between VD and MV. It will be good if the Vaishnava experts on the list discuss what is in the original Vaishnava texts. VD is supposed to have sung a Kanakatarastava resulting in a rain of gold for the sake of a poor Vaishnavite. This reminds one of Sankara of Sankaravijaya composing Kankalakshmi Stotra to bring riches to a poor brahmin woman. The Srivaishnavite tradition seems to agree with the conclusion of Kulke that MV could have become a minister only under Bukka. Regards S. Palaniappan From palashm at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 15 19:48:41 2000 From: palashm at HOTMAIL.COM (Palash Jyoti Mazumdar) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 20:48:41 +0100 Subject: Harappan Relics in Assamese Society Message-ID: <161227058522.23782.9674003783451886996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Searching through the website harappa.com, I was able to access an image I had been searching for, described as 'dish on stand'. This 'dish'(www.harappa.com/indus2/163.html) is identical to a kind of vessel we use in Assamese society, called Bota(o as in fought, a as in task).The bota is traditionally made always in bronze and is used as an offering stand to show respect, used specially in offering betel nut and leaf. I believe this to be anothersmall proof that the Harappans were the ancestors of today's Sanskrit Hindus.It is almost impossible to believe that another group of people coming in, that too after the civilisation had ended, would take in even such tiny details. Another thing I would like to know is whether there is any seal which depicts this Bota along with script marks which appear to stand for it. If there is any, the script could be studied to see how it can represent the word 'bota' and a vital clue may be uncovered. As the word is for an object, it is unlikely to have changed nor should it give rise to any controversy of language. From zydenbos at GMX.LI Mon May 15 20:19:45 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 15 May 00 22:19:45 +0200 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke In-Reply-To: <20000514080234.1083.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058533.23782.14898623145072426310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Though I basically share Vidyasankar Sundaresan's respect for traditions, I do want to make a few general remarks in defence of Hermann Kulke and the late Paul Hacker. Am Sun, 14 May 2000 schrieb Vidyasankar Sundaresan: > Hacker does > not hedge his statements, or even use words like "probably" or > "seems like" or "may be". He simply claims, "Er (= Vidyaranya) > schuf Fiktionen." [...] We should not read too much into what is a common style of presenting one's opinions. In fairness we should also look at the quote, provided by Venkatraman Iyer: > >Hacker continues: > >"If my description of the figure of VidyAraNya is correct, he > >might be considered in some sense a predecessor of Vivekananda. which looks likes a very explicitly tentative presentation of his findings (both concerning Vidyaara.nya and the Vivekananda parallellism). At the same time, VS's > Hacker's animus towards Vivekananda and other neo-Vedantins leads him to > think that Vidyaranya was an early predecessor of the brand of revivalist > Hinduism that developed in the 19th century. [...] or: > In this particular case, the element of confrontation in > Hacker's work has overwhelmed everything else. looks rather speculative in a similar way: a conclusion which one may or may not accept. Yes, Hacker disliked Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan a.o.; but his description of Vidyaranya may be appropriate nevertheless. > He thinks Vidyaranya used > his political connections to install Vidyasankara, his guru, as the head of > a newly established matha, and pretended that the monastery was an old one. > Kulke simply modifies this a bit, and thinks Vidyasankara himself was > probably more responsible than Vidyaranya. Anyone who has a little bit of > familiarity with the workings of guru-shishya lineages should know that this > is not how things work. This is not quite clear. Does this mean: a pupil does not install his teacher? But this is what happened when, in that same part of the country, in the 12th century, Basava organised the Virasaiva community around the Anubhavama.n.tapa, where he installed his guru Allama on the ;suunyasi.mhaasana. > Both Hacker and Kulke have also ignored other available evidence. There are > pre-Vijayanagara inscriptions available from the vicinity of Sringeri, that > mention Vidyasankara. For example, Antonio Rigopoulos's 1998 book on > Dattatreya (SUNY press) describes a seal from the early 13th century found > in Shimoga, that also salutes Gaudapada, Govinda and Sankara. But that is still separated from Sankara by a few centuries! Are such inscriptions relevant in this matter? Furthermore, saluting Sankara does not mean that S. founded a ma.tha. Finally, > Between Hacker and Kulke, they almost > postulate a grand conspiracy theory, when things can be explained through > much simpler and straightforward reasons, based on local culture and > history. I don't say all this just because of my own familial affiliation to > the Sringeri tradition. It concerns me that the histories of many Indian > traditions get distorted in similar ways. We should bear in mind that Hacker and Kulke are not interested in defending any tradition; on the contrary, as modern scholars who are seeking a comprehensive understanding of what has happened in India, they seek explanations and solutions to questions that have not been asked earlier and that arise when we see traditions contradict each other or contradict information that is not traditional at all. When one impartially tries to make sense of conflicting traditions and data, one necessarily devalues at least some traditionally held beliefs; depending upon one's own point of view, this could look like 'distorting'. Jainas all across Karnataka have a tradition that Sringeri was a Jaina centre and that ;Saaradaadevii in Sringeri first was the yakshi Padmaavatii. Inscriptional evidence of a Jaina presence is older than that of the presence of a Sankarite ma.tha. We know that the Sankarite tradition has internal contradictions (Sringeri-Kanchi; the ;Sa:nkaravijayas give conflicting views about Sankara). It is suspect that there are no ancient records of a ma.tha founded there by Sankara. We have reports that Jaina temples and sites all over Karnataka have been brahminised or saivised (e.g., the notorious Ellamma temple at Saundatti once was a Padmaavatii shrine). The brahminical opposition to Jainism at Sringeri was so strong that among the depictions of the da;saavataaras on the Vidyasankara temple the place where one would expect the Buddha has been filled with Gomma.te;svara. (Now comes a bit of my own speculating.) What could have happened is this: some time before Vidyasankara there was a Sankarite presence at Sringeri, and in the course of time this somehow grew into a ma.tha. We know that all ma.thas love beautiful histories for themselves, and the one at Sringeri could have become hochstilisiert, or made into, something founded by Sankara himself. If this was not Vidyaranya's invention, this could have occurred sufficiently long before Vidyaranya that the idea found general 'acceptance' by his time and nobody was interested in challenging it (cf. Sundaresan's "local culture and history"). Something similar may have happened elsewhere (as I remember, Kulke had first wondered about Puri and then wanted to look at the other Sankarite ma.thas) and at a time when Vidyaranya and Vijayanagara wanted to develop a geopolitical strategy, they made use of the legendary materials that already existed: because of parallel legends / traditions elsewhere in India, they sought to forge links with like-minded persons in the north, and the Sankarite construction served that purpose and not so much a justification of Vijayanagara - or perhaps also served a justification of Vidyaranya's political role? We should not forget that Vijayanagara was not a Sankarite empire. Vyaasatiirtha, a yati of the Maadhva tradition, later similarly held a politically very highly influencial position in Vijayanagara, and the Maadhvas and Sankarites did not exactly see eye to eye. As for Saiva influences in the development of the Sankara legend (V. Iyer): the Virasaivas claim that one of their holy persons, Re.nukaacaarya (who is, I believe, associated with the Rambhapuri ma.tha, not far from Sringeri) gifted the Candramaulii;svara linga to Sringeri (which, in the view of some, means that Sringeri acknowledged the 'superiority' of Rambhapuri). In the case of Sringeri, Rambhapuri-Sringeri relations may have had something to do with the saiv-isation of the Sankarite tradition, which is syncretistic in any case (L. Renou goes so far as to say that 'orthodox' Hinduism is not orthodox, but 'eclectic'). -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik, Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail: zydenbos at gmx.de From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 16 07:38:13 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 00:38:13 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058551.23782.13541350451955801834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've split my response into two parts, for reasons of length. Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > >Hacker continues: > > >"If my description of the figure of VidyAraNya is correct, he > > >might be considered in some sense a predecessor of Vivekananda. > >which looks likes a very explicitly tentative presentation of his >findings (both concerning Vidyaara.nya and the Vivekananda >parallellism). Ah, but Hacker never goes on to specify what would be implied by the other possibility, namely, in case his description is not correct. I doubt if he seriously considered this possibility at all; and for the following reason. Hacker's comments about Vidyaranya are part of a broader discussion of the authenticity of texts attributed to Sankara. He accepts only texts attributed to Sankara Bhagavat/Bhagavatpada/Bhagavatpujyapada, and not those attributed to Sankaracharya, on the grounds that the latter group of texts were probably composed by titular Sankaracharyas. Now, on Hacker's showing, Vidyaranya was the first titular Sankaracharya, so to speak. It follows that according to his thinking, all these other texts, attributed only to Sankaracharya, should be dated to a post-14th century period. This is easily disproved, when we see that pre-Vidyaranya authors have quoted from some of them, or have written commentaries to others. Surely, Hacker should have been aware of this, as most of his criteria for authenticity are based on features that are identifiably post-Sankaran, and absent in the works that are most probably authentic. As far as this subset of texts is concerned, 1. they are attested in pre-Vidyaranya times, and 2. they are attributed to Sankaracharya, a probable reference to a holder of the title. Therefore, it follows that either there were titular Sankaracharyas before Vidyaranya, or all these pre-Vidyaranya texts are authentic. The latter possibility can be rejected for good reasons. I daresay the issue of authenticity needs to be revisited, but not all of these texts can be said to be authentic. Therefore, we are left with the conclusion that there were titular Sankaracharyas before the 14th century. Titular Sankaracharyas imply monastic institution(s), with associated disciple lineages. Thus, even if there is no inscriptional or literary evidence available for any mathas in a pre-Vijayanagara period, we have to allow for a possibility that such institutions were probably functioning before the 14th century. It also stands to reason that many of these institutions, if not all, would have been in southern India. Of these pre-Vidyaranya titular Sankaracharyas, either some or all of them were at Sringeri, or they were at other places. Here comes the interesting part. If there were titular Sankaracharyas elsewhere, surely they would have had their own disciple lineages that would have continued into the 14th century, notwithstanding the invasion by Malik Kafur. The devastation of south India was nowhere as complete as assumed. The older rulers and armies regrouped quickly and offered good resistance to the ruler of Delhi. Under this scenario, not even the eminence or the political connections of Vidyaranya would have allowed him to get away with creating a fiction about the institution at Sringeri. It would have been challenged in one way or the other. Witness how in recent times, neither the respect generally accorded to Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati of Kanchipuram, nor the political influence of the Kanchi matha, has succeeded in stopping the century old controversy over its origins. We Brahmins have been a very fractious lot, constantly asserting the superiority of specific sub-groups and institutions over other similar Brahminical groups. There is no evidence of anything of the kind from the 14th century. All the claims put forth by other institutions, such as the Kudali matha, or the Amani matha, have to do with succession issues in a late, post-Vidyaranya period. As far as Hacker is concerned, what this means is that he should have checked his premises. Either his reconstruction of Vidyaranya's role is faulty, or his criteria of manuscript colophons is faulty. I think he was on the right track with the manuscript evidence. But it seems to me that he just did not consider an alternative possibility for what might have been happening in the Advaita tradition, during Vidyaranya's times. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 16 07:45:16 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 00:45:16 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058553.23782.17142748142537277371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Part II. Robert Zydenbos wrote: > > Hacker's animus towards Vivekananda and other neo-Vedantins leads him to > > think that Vidyaranya was an early predecessor of the brand of >revivalist > > Hinduism that developed in the 19th century. [...] > >or: > > > In this particular case, the element of confrontation in > > Hacker's work has overwhelmed everything else. > >looks rather speculative in a similar way: a conclusion which one may >or may not accept. Yes, Hacker disliked Vivekananda, Radhakrishnan >a.o.; but his description of Vidyaranya may be appropriate nevertheless. > I present my statement as a personal opinion, on a mailing list, which no scholar is going to cite in a publication, not least because I am not a professional in the field. On the other hand, what may have been tentative or speculative with Hacker gains the status of a conclusion with Kulke, and will end up being cited as having been proved beyond question, by others who come later. My only aim is to provoke people to question some of this. My other questions have to do with larger issues associated with how south India viewed Islam and Muslims in the 13th-14th centuries, but I won't get into that now. >This is not quite clear. Does this mean: a pupil does not install his >teacher? But this is what happened when, in that same part of the >country, in the 12th century, Basava organised the Virasaiva community >around the Anubhavama.n.tapa, where he installed his guru Allama on the >;suunyasi.mhaasana. But Basava did not go further and claim that this was an institution that had existed for many centuries before him. Also, note that in the earliest Vijayanagara inscriptions, Vidyasankara does not seem to be a living person at all. He is already a "devaru," for whom a temple is being built and worship is being instituted. Bharati Tirtha and Vidyaranya, on the other hand, are "SrIpAdaru"-s. Neither Hacker's postulate of the disciple setting up the guru as the head of a matha, nor Kulke's postulate that the guru himself was probably responsible, does proper justice to the Vijayanagara epigraphical evidence. Finally, note that the nearby village of Simhagiri is called Hale-Sringeri, or old-Sringeri. There are some clearly pre-Vijayanagara records there, but these have generally been published only in matha publications. I don't know if independent scholars have looked at these and dated them more accurately. >But that is still separated from Sankara by a few centuries! Are such >inscriptions relevant in this matter? Furthermore, saluting Sankara >does not mean that S. founded a ma.tha. Perhaps not, but note that the said inscription is described as a "seal" of Vidyasankara, in Epigraphica Carnatica. At the least, it shows that these people were already present in the general area, and much before the founding of Vijayanagara. And let's not forget that Madhva from Udipi, who broke away from the Sankaran monastic tradition, was also pre-Vijayanagara. There had to have been a substantial presence of the Sankaran tradition in that part of the country, before someone could break away from it. >We should bear in mind that Hacker and Kulke are not interested in >defending any tradition; on the contrary, as modern scholars who are >seeking a comprehensive understanding of what has happened in India, I appreciate all this, but it seems to me that a comprehensive understanding of things Indian should be based on a comprehensive examination of data. It is not as if what I quote are newly discovered pieces of evidence that were not available a few decades ago. Kulke, for example, ignores all the literary evidence, both from philosophical works and from hagiographies of Vidyaranya. Within the latter set of texts, there are again a few conflicting claims, which also need to be evaluated. I myself champion impartiality, notwithstanding respect for the tradition, for I think that the tradition is strong enough to subject itself to an impartial examination. All I want to point out is that other constructions can be put on the situation, when you take a wider set of data into consideration. I am not so much interested in "defending" or trying to "prove" that the tradition is right, as I am in showing that the statements that have been made about Vidyaranya or Vidyasankara are most probably wrong, and for good critical reasons. For example, take Kulke's view of the legitimation of Vijayanagara. It is not clear to me why Sankara needs to be invoked for this. The Hoysalas were Jainas, and later, Vaishnavas. Many other kings in the Karnataka region were followers of Kalamukha, Virasaiva and other kinds of Saiva teachers. Why should Sankara become important only in the 14th century, and not earlier? To suggest that Vidyaranya invoked Sankara's name primarily for this purpose does not seem legitimate at all. >Jainas all across Karnataka have a tradition that Sringeri was a Jaina >centre and that ;Saaradaadevii in Sringeri first was the yakshi >Padmaavatii. Inscriptional evidence of a Jaina presence is older than I've always been puzzled by this claim. It seems to me that it would have been easier to Brahminize the Jaina Padmavati into a form of Sri/Lakshmi, through an association with the lotus. The Sankaravijaya legend of Sankara's composition of the Kanakadhara hymn to Lakshmi would have also come in handy. Not to mention that there already was a Padmavati as a consort of Vishnu in south India, as at Tirupati. Why Brahminize her as Sarada, a form of Sarasvati, who is traditionally impoverished and at loggerheads with Lakshmi?!! Iconographically also, it does not seem to make much sense. Incidentally, there is inscriptional evidence from the Vishnu-Janardana temple at Sringeri, from the 10th century, predating the Jaina evidence cited by Kulke. I don't doubt the presence of all these competing traditions throughout the Karnataka countryside. But what about the mutual competition between Jaina and Virasaiva claims about having been at Sringeri? >that of the presence of a Sankarite ma.tha. We know that the Sankarite >tradition has internal contradictions (Sringeri-Kanchi; the >;Sa:nkaravijayas give conflicting views about Sankara). It is suspect >that there are no ancient records of a ma.tha founded there by Sankara. How about a reconstruction that postulates only that the character of the Advaita monastic tradition changed in the 14th century? The recent schism created by the rise of the Dvaita school would have been at least as important a factor as the invasion by the Khilji army and the consequent founding of Vijayanagara. It may be that in the 9th-12th centuries, the monks confined themselves to forest hermitages, and only slowly came to associate themselves with big temples and monasteries. This would parallel the old Vedic traditions of the AraNyakas, as also the Buddhist distinction between the "forest-monks" and the "town-monks". That would explain why there are absolutely no ancient records indicating that Sankara established *any* mathas at all, anywhere in India. Still, without disciple lineages and hermitages devoted to his works, how did the Sankaran tradition even survive through the centuries? >We have reports that Jaina temples and sites all over Karnataka have >been brahminised or saivised (e.g., the notorious Ellamma temple at >Saundatti once was a Padmaavatii shrine). The brahminical opposition to >Jainism at Sringeri was so strong that among the depictions of the >da;saavataaras on the Vidyasankara temple the place where one would >expect the Buddha has been filled with Gomma.te;svara. I don't get this. Why is substitution of Gommatesvara for Buddha as part of the Dasavataras a sign of opposition? Because of the ninth avatara being described as one that purposely misleads people? Anyway, Brahminical opposition to Jainism is not a sudden thing that cropped up along with the founding of Vijayanagara. It had to have a history behind it. I speculate along similar, if not identical, lines as yours, regarding what might have happened in say, the 12th or the 13th centuries. >We should not forget that Vijayanagara was not a Sankarite empire. >Vyaasatiirtha, a yati of the Maadhva tradition, later similarly held a >politically very highly influencial position in Vijayanagara, and the >Maadhvas and Sankarites did not exactly see eye to eye. Exactly. Although you could argue that this shift came only with the change in dynasties. Vyasatirtha was influential during a later period of Vijayanagara history, under the third dynasty. But even with the first dynasty, there is frequent mention of a Saiva (Virasaiva?) teacher called Kriyasakti, sometimes in the same records that also mention Vidyaranya. It seems to me that over the centuries, Vidyaranya has come to be credited with a greater political influence than what he really wielded. Perhaps Smartas involved with Vijayanagara administration exaggerated the role played by Vidyaranya. It may simply be that Harihara and Bukka endowed a pre-existing Sankaran institution at Sringeri, as part of their wider policy of patronage of religious institutions throughout south India. As for Puri, I remember that Kulke cites Jorgen Lutt's work, where it has been shown that the earliest reliable records date from Maratha times. Again it is not clear what sort of strategic alliances with other parts of India can be ascribed to Vidyaranya and the Vijayanagara rulers. We do know that more often than not, Vijayanagara emperors and the Gajapatis of Orissa were fighting each other for control of the Krishna and Godavari deltas. > >As for Saiva influences in the development of the Sankara legend (V. >Iyer): the Virasaivas claim that one of their holy persons, >Re.nukaacaarya (who is, I believe, associated with the Rambhapuri >ma.tha, not far from Sringeri) gifted the Candramaulii;svara linga to >Sringeri (which, in the view of some, means that Sringeri acknowledged >the 'superiority' of Rambhapuri). In the case of Sringeri, >Rambhapuri-Sringeri relations may have had something to do with the >saiv-isation of the Sankarite tradition, which is syncretistic in any >case (L. Renou goes so far as to say that 'orthodox' Hinduism is not >orthodox, but 'eclectic'). The Saivization of the Sankaran tradition is a complex issue, on which my thoughts would run into pages, so I will not get into that here. As for a Chandramoulisvara linga at Sringeri, the above is not just a Virasaiva claim. Sringeri's own Guruvamsakavya, probably an 18th century text, itself says that Renukacharya/Revana-siddha gave a Sivalinga to one of the Sringeri mathadhipatis. The poet does not seem to have seen this as an indication of Sringeri recognizing Rambhapuri as superior. Perhaps he meant to indicate the opposite. Even in later times, the Virasaiva Nayaka rulers of Ikkeri/Bednur were patrons of the Sringeri matha. Interestingly, these Nayakas were also the sole supporters of the last few "emperors" of Vijayanagara, at a time when the Mysore Wodeyars and the Telugu Nayakas in Madurai and Tanjavur were all breaking away. The controversy between Sringeri and Kanchi seems to have more to do with this period of post-Vijayanagara history than with anything from an earlier time. There is some textual evidence for this in the Sankara hagiographies. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue May 16 06:04:07 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 02:04:07 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058544.23782.11701097151363974446.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another similarity between the stories of Vedantadesika and Sankara of Sankaravijaya. Vedantadesika declined an invitation to go to the royal court of Bukka I. Sankara of Sankaravijaya declined an invitation to go to the royal court of the Kerala king. Regards S. Palaniappan From tlk at POST.COM Tue May 16 09:28:37 2000 From: tlk at POST.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 05:28:37 -0400 Subject: Devanagari font for LaTeX Message-ID: <161227058559.23782.3557200333005826618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the Indoloy list, I usually use LaTeX to prepare documents and I am thus wondering whether a devanagari font for LaTeX is available. If so, how can I obtain it? Thank you very much. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From tlk at POST.COM Tue May 16 09:37:04 2000 From: tlk at POST.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 05:37:04 -0400 Subject: Cords and bamboo rods in ancient India Message-ID: <161227058561.23782.1223079933693626173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of Indology, I am interested in the accuracy of methods for the measuring out and construction of different arenas and altars in ancient Indian ritual (more specifically as described in the zulbasUtras). The methods involves using cords and bamboo rods. Is there any good studies (or other literature) on rope making in ancient India (what materials were used, thickness of a general rope/cord, etc.)? I am also interested in similar literature on bamboo; what sorts of bamboo grow in India, how straight are the bamboo rods, etc. If anyone can help I would greatly appreciate it. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen (Copenhagen/Denmark) ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From zydenbos at GMX.LI Tue May 16 06:06:00 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 08:06:00 +0200 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058546.23782.4625133858064161066.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 12 May 2000, um 21:51 schrieb Vidyasankar Sundaresan: 7F00,0000,0000> Without taking sides in this debate, let me just say that if I > were a vipassana teacher, I would find disadvantages with TM too. > And vice versa, I may add. There are deep-rooted religious > politics going on in the background, as far as such claims are > concerned. This is a very relevant observation. Perhaps we should say that even more than "politics", commerce and marketing are involved. TM has been marketed very well, and therefore it has drawn a lot of attention and is the best known meditational system from India in the West in recent times. As a result, even if there are more than "600 published scientific studies" on TM, the sheer number should not convince us that TM in itself is superior to other systems as a method. (To give a parallel illustration: the Bible has been translated more than any other book, and very scrupulously too. This is no proof that Christianity is a superior religion, or that the Bible is the best piece of world literature.) I would actually go one step further than Vidyasankar Sundaresan and assume that the "politics", "marketing" etc. are crucial in determining the effectiveness and personal desirability of a method. For instance, speaking for myself: I find it suspect that an organisation that says so much about ancient Indian and 'Vedic' this-and-that under the leadership of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi cannot get its Sanskrit sandhi right (unlike, e.g., Ramana Maharshi. Observant readers will already have understood what I mean). This one detail is so disturbing that I will never be able to trust the leader or his organisation fully, even if most of what they say proves to be no nonsense; and this disturbance is bound to affect the efficaciousness of their methods in my individual case. (The above is *not* an invitation for TM justifications such as "sandhi is old-fashioned", "the guru knows best", "you must be wrong because you aren't an Indian", etc. I have heard them all before, and they do not convince.) Given the huge variety of such possible individual variables that could be 0000,0000,0000relevant, we must wonder how meaningfully scientific those 600 studies can be (assuming that the word "scientific" means, as seems to be customary on this anglosaxon list, "materially countable / measurable with the use of machines"). RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2562 bytes Desc: not available URL: From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Tue May 16 05:13:08 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 10:43:08 +0530 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke In-Reply-To: <17.599ceca.2651e3f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227058542.23782.17859348164748200873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > If however, as others have argued, the medieval Indian did not see the > invading forces from outside as "Muslim", in the 19th century sense of > the term, one should wonder in what way Vidyaranya supposedly created a > defence against Islam. Being `kindred outsiders', the ruling caste welcomed the Muslim invaders as it enabled them to perpetrate their rule over the Sudra masses : http://ambedkar.org/brahmanism/Brahmins_were_benefited_by_Muslim_Conquest.htm As stated by the author, Dr. Jamanadas, "The Muslim Rule was also a Brahmanic rule s far as the masses were concerned." >?From the point of view of the Dravidian, all are `outsiders', whether Aryan, Brahman, Turk or Saka. And the outsiders appear to have helped one another, fearful of an indigenous uprising. The medieval Sanskrit term Turuska is a hangover from the days of Kushan and Tokharian invasions. The Aryans confounded the later Muslim Turks with the previous Buddhist Turks. The preceding Buddhist and Zoroastrian `Turuskas' (ie. Rajputs) actively participated in the army of the Islamic Turkic sultanate, forming more than half of Aurangzeb's army. The army was thus a `Turuska' army for the medieval writers. Samar From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue May 16 09:22:23 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 11:22:23 +0200 Subject: Address for Renate Syed Message-ID: <161227058555.23782.2995355118036328825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone please help me get in touch with Renate Syed. I need to consult her about her book on Ancient Indian Flora. Many thanks, -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 From shrao at NYX.NET Tue May 16 17:43:15 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 11:43:15 -0600 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. In-Reply-To: <39210168.32264.5355C@localhost> Message-ID: <161227058568.23782.12739786963120145986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 16 May 2000, Robert Zydenbos wrote: > I would actually go one step further than Vidyasankar Sundaresan > and assume that the "politics", "marketing" etc. are crucial in > determining the effectiveness and personal desirability of a method. > For instance, speaking for myself: I find it suspect that an > organisation that says so much about ancient Indian and 'Vedic' For some time now, there has been a tendency in certain political circles that anything labeled "Vedic" is assumed to be somehow authentic, wonderful, and superior. The adjective thus gets misused a lot. Perhaps this is a reaction to perceived Western undervaluation of India's heritage, which is a stretch, but even then the results are anything but funny. I remember distinctly that some years ago, there was a discussion about so-called "Vedic mathematics" on another forum; at that time, I caused quite a bit of ire among some by stating that in my opinion, there was nothing "Vedic" about the same, and it wasn't even very interesting mathematics, no matter what the source. Regards, Shrisha Rao > RZ From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue May 16 11:52:57 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 11:52:57 +0000 Subject: bindu Message-ID: <161227058549.23782.7917748119575873551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At what point does 'bindu' begin to acquire the status of a symbol and a philosophical concept ? Much before sphota-vaada ? when ? as early as Rgveda? Thanks in advance. Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Tue May 16 10:14:03 2000 From: k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 12:14:03 +0200 Subject: Address for Renate Syed Message-ID: <161227058567.23782.4098022606848643398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not theaddress of Renate Syet, but she is lecturing at the Dept. of Indology at the University of Munich. You can contact her by that addresss at least. LMU Institut f?r Indologie Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1 80539 M?nchen Tel.+49/89/2180-2353 Fax: +49/89/2180-3436 Regards, KK -- ...................................................................................... Katharina Kupfer http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kkupfer.htm Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. +- 49 - 69 - 798 23 139 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax +- 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/tocharic/tht.htm From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue May 16 19:47:47 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 12:47:47 -0700 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058575.23782.5460526276794157960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm writing a review of an Italian book on mnemonic techniques in premodern societies. The volume focuses mnemonics in European and American Indian civilizations, but, rather surprisingly, doesn't mention mnemonics in India or China. Does anyone know of any *dedicated* studies of Vedic mnemonics in any scholarly European language (German, Eng., Fr., Italian, Dutch, etc.), that I can point readers to in the review? I know many studies, like Frits Staal's, that discuss the topic in passing, but none that deal with it in a dedicated fashion, unlike the dozens of books on premodern Europe. The cross-cultural sides of the question are interesting, since ancient and medieval mnemonics in the West were built around visual methods (e.g., the construction of 'memory palaces' and the like) and not around the oral transformations of texts, as in India. Thanks in advance. From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue May 16 10:02:41 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 13:02:41 +0300 Subject: Indological Conference In-Reply-To: <20000513140727.40471.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058557.23782.5478881036594861654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sat, 13 May 100 17:07 +0300 MSK Venkatraman Iyer wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Is Gurov's Dravidijskie elementy v tekstax rannix Samsxit (1987) > available in English? > > Would be thankful for his email and mailing address. Dr. Gurov's mailing address is: 16th line, 13, kv. 23, Vassilyevsky Ostrov, 199034, St.Petersburg, Russia E-mail: orient at vi1945.spb.edu Best regards, Ya.V. --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Tue, 16 May 2000 12:52 +0300 MSK From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 16 21:57:00 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 14:57:00 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058577.23782.2895802838233969757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Halebid/Dvarasamudra was captured by Malik Kafur in 1310 aided by an Yadava king. Hoysala king, Ballala III, returned from a war with Pandyas and accepted M. Kafur's terms. Later Madurai too succumbed to MK. Vidyaranya saw all this, and probably did not want to set his presence in the political capitals of the day. Regards, Prasad >> >>Sringeri is close to HaLebiD, the Hoysala capital, >> >>isn't it? >> >> VidyaSankar Sundaresan: >> >No. >> >> Distance, in terms of miles/km, from Sringeri to Belur, Halebid >> is much less than to Hampi. No Hindu monk would put >> their ashram in the destroyed political capital. Shrisha Rao: >?? Am I missing something here? >Hampi was sacked (upon the fall of the Vijayanagara kingdom under >Ramaraya) in 1565 CE, which would be almost 200 years after Vidyaranya, who >would have needed to be some sort of soothsayer to know not to put his >institution there! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN Tue May 16 12:53:36 2000 From: spmittal at GIASDL01.VSNL.NET.IN (Surya P. Mittal) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 18:23:36 +0530 Subject: Impact of mantra recital on health Message-ID: <161227058565.23782.17060963377743887552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On behalf of my friend (not an Indologist) on whose request I initiated this query, I thank all those who spared their valuable time to respond. Surya > Is there any research (completed/ongoing) on the impact of > mantra recital on health -- more specifically the mental > health, i.e. the psychological/psychiatric problems ? > Any references (web-sites/print/contact persons) will be > helpful. > > Thanks in advance, > Surya P. Mittal From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed May 17 02:10:38 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 19:10:38 -0700 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058583.23782.3659527950191754175.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > I for one would be interested in the full reference to the book which you are > reviewing, as well as to other studies of mnemonics which may be of interest > to Indologists. > > I will concede this point to you: I do not think that Vedicists in general > have taken full advantage of the insights into orality and mnemonics that > have arisen since the pathbreaking work of Parry and Lord. The volume is entitled _Memoria e memorie_, ed. Lina Bolzoni, Vittorio Erlindo, and Marcello Morelli (1998). The collection doesn't deal with the same questions as Parry and Lord, but (primarily) with the construction of formal mnemonic systems used in the West to memorize speeches, legal briefs, sermons, and written texts, etc. The granddaddy of these texts was the pseudo-Ciceronian _Hortensius_, which was an ancient handbook for lawyers and rhetoricians. Almost all of these premodern Western memory systems depended on the construction of complicated loci (in the Renaissance, 'memory palaces,' 'theaters of memory,' and the like) that you populated in fixed ways with complicated images. One variation might be a 'memory palace' with hundreds of rooms, each containing distinctive furnishings and people dressed in particular ways; 'memory theaters,' could also be constructed along the same lines, filled with actors in different costumes making fixed (mudra-like) gestures. Once you had constructed and memorized your personal 'memory palace' or 'memory theater,' etc., the tens or hundreds of thousands of images or loci systematically placed in them could be associated with individual sentences or words in the sermons or texts that you were memorizing. These loci could be reused repeatedly to memorize different texts. As Stephen Hodge has already pointed out, there is some resemblance between these devices and the mnemonic use of mandalas in tantric Buddhism. Certainly mudras have close affinities with them as well. Same with temple images in general (in the West, think of Victor Hugo's description of Gothic cathedrals as 'encyclopedias in stone,' or in Java of the mnemonic images at Borobodur). The premodern and modern literature on these Western visual memory systems is enormous. For overviews and bibliographical guidance, see: Paolo Rossi, _Clavis universalis: Arti della memoria e logica combinatoria da Lullo a Leibniz (Milano-Napoli, 1960). Frances Yates, _The Art of Memory_ (Chicago, 1966). Jonathan Spence, The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci (New York, 1984). (Already alluded to by Steven Hodge.) A.R. Luria's classic study of synaesthesia, _The Mind of a Mnemonist_ (Cambridge, Mass., 1968) provides some insight into the neurobiological mechanisms behind these systems. = Hundreds of works were produced on the ars memorativa from the later middle ages through the 18th century in the West. Some of these will show up in a good research-library search engine if you type in 'mnemonics' for a subject search or 'ars memoriae,' 'ars reminiscendi,' or 'ars memorativa' in a title search. One classic Renaissance text that contains a detailed description of the technique (as put forward by Giordano Bruno) is: _Philothei Iordani Bruni Nolani recens et completa Ars reminiscendi et in phantastico campo exarandi: ad plurimas in triginta sigillis inquirende, disponendi, atque retinendi implicitas novas rationes & artes introductiones_ (London, 1583). The most interesting thing about formal Western mnemonics, as mentioned earlier, is that they were almost entirely dependent on visual imagery. Nothing comparable to the elaborate verbal combinatory techniques found in Vedic mnemonics is known in the West. (At least not for mnemonic purposes; an 'ars combinatoria' was used widely in magic.) My own studies of 15th-century Western figures who supposedly had eidetic memories and used these techniques show that the results almost always ended in close paraphrases rather than in true photographic recall. Nothing close to the so-called 'tape-recorder' reproduction quality reported for Vedic reciters shows up in the West. From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed May 17 00:20:21 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 20:20:21 -0400 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058581.23782.13005951779193432056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/16/00 3:47:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, saf at SAFARMER.COM writes [among other things]: > I know many studies, like Frits > Staal's, that discuss the topic in passing, but none that deal with it in a > dedicated fashion, unlike the dozens of books on premodern Europe. The > cross-cultural sides of the question are interesting, since ancient and > medieval mnemonics in the West were built around visual methods (e.g., the > construction of 'memory palaces' and the like) and not around the oral > transformations of texts, as in India. > Well, I don't know exactly which of Staal's books you have in mind here, but I do not think that his *Nambudiri Veda Recitation* [1961] can be fairly said to merely "discuss the topic in passing." In any case, it is to my knowledge the fullest discussion available, in European languages. Madhav Deshpande has recently written an interesting article which may be of interest to you: "Conceptualizing the Eternal Language: Features of Priestly Sanskrit" in *Ideology and Status of Sanskrit: Contributions to the History of the Sanskrit Language* edited by Jan Houben, 1996]. It is based on an extensive collection of taped recordings of priestly recitations which needs further study. Let us hope that Madhav will have the opportunity to complete this study. Perhaps Madhav is paying attention to the list, and will be able to add further comment for us. I for one would be interested in the full reference to the book which you are reviewing, as well as to other studies of mnemonics which may be of interest to Indologists. I will concede this point to you: I do not think that Vedicists in general have taken full advantage of the insights into orality and mnemonics that have arisen since the pathbreaking work of Parry and Lord. If you can enlighten us about such things, please do. Best wishes, George Thompson From n.mohkamsing at WORLDONLINE.NL Tue May 16 18:26:49 2000 From: n.mohkamsing at WORLDONLINE.NL (mohkamsing) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 20:26:49 +0200 Subject: Cords and bamboo rods in ancient India Message-ID: <161227058571.23782.4512010320972256512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lindegaard, Though not eaxactly what you're looking, the following two articles may be helpful: Frits Staal's "MAna: Vedic" and Bruno Dagen's "MAna in the Arts: Architecture and Image-making", which occured in KalAtattvakosha, edited by B. Baumer, Vol. II, 355-84, N. Delhi: IGNCA, 1992. Sincerely, Narender Mohkamsing [Leiden, The Netherlands] ---------- > From: Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Cords and bamboo rods in ancient India > Date: dinsdag 16 mei 2000 11:37 > > Dear members of Indology, > > I am interested in the accuracy of methods for the measuring out and > construction of different arenas and altars in ancient Indian ritual (more > specifically as described in the zulbasUtras). The methods involves using > cords and bamboo rods. Is there any good studies (or other literature) on > rope making in ancient India (what materials were used, thickness of a > general rope/cord, etc.)? I am also interested in similar literature on > bamboo; what sorts of bamboo grow in India, how straight are the bamboo > rods, etc. If anyone can help I would greatly appreciate it. > > Sincerely, > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > (Copenhagen/Denmark) > > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Tue May 16 19:17:03 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 21:17:03 +0200 Subject: Impact of mantra recital, etc. Message-ID: <161227058573.23782.14287307154887431720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrisha Rao wrote: > For some time now, there has been a tendency in certain political circles > that anything labeled "Vedic" is assumed to be somehow authentic, > wonderful, and superior. The adjective thus gets misused a lot. I don't think politics needs to be dragged in here. Perfectly apolitical people label their vegetarian cookbooks as "Vedic cooking". For quite some time astrologers have called their art "Vedic astrology" eventhough Hindu astrology does not predate Alexander. It is nothing new for classical music as well as for Bharatanatyam to be called "the fifth Veda", so it seems the inflation of the Vedic component to everything is simply part of Hindu culture. Koenraad Elst From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue May 16 22:43:50 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 23:43:50 +0100 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058579.23782.14232891508811326234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > cross-cultural sides of the question are interesting, since ancient and > medieval mnemonics in the West were built around visual methods (e.g., the > construction of 'memory palaces' and the like) and not around the oral > transformations of texts, as in India. Although you mention that you are specifically interested in Vedic mnenomic techniques, I have noted a similar method to the "memory palace" concept used in some later Buddhist tantric commentaries dealing with the structure and symbolism of mandalas where each set of structural elements is linked with key concepts related to the path and goal. I am not certain whether this is intended overtly as a memory technique or just as a detailed exegesis of the symbolim of the mandalas. The various attributes of the tantric deities are also often treated in a similar manner although this seems more obviously connected with symbolism rather than a memory technique. I am sure that you are also aware that the Chinese probably did not have a "memory palace" method as that idea was something Matteo Ricci used during his stay in China as an initial way to gain the attention of potential Mandarin converts to Christianity who were required to accomplish fearsome feats of memory to pass the state exams. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From bvi at AFN.ORG Wed May 17 15:42:08 2000 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us Message-ID: <161227058589.23782.6614185639686482964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 05:58 PM 5/9/00 -0700, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: >Concerning Steve Brown's question: > >>>i am curious about the methodology of finding a guru in classical >>>hinduism...How does one look? when does one know he/she has found their >guru? > >And Chris Beetle's response: >> >>The following is one verse from Padma Purana: >> >>sat-karma-nipuno vipro, mantra-tantra visaradah, >>avaisnava guru na syad, vaisnavah sva paco guruh >> >>A brahmana (priest or intellectual) with all brahminical qualities and >>abilities is not qualified to be a guru unless he is a devotee of Lord >>Vishnu (the Supreme Lord). While a devotee of Lord Vishnu, even if born in >>the lowest class, is qualified to act as guru. > >This verse, of course, is not about how to find a Hindu spiritual guru in >general. It is, rather, a sectarain VaiSNava statement. The Padma Purana >is a VaiSNava Purana, and a very sectarian one at that: it fiercely >condemns non VaiSNava Hindus of several traditions. > >It all depends on what Steve Brown is looking for, a guru within a specific >sectarian branch of Hinduism, or a more open spiritual teacher that accepts >different branches of Hinduism. Are there verses in Puranas and/or related texts advocating gurus who do not fall 'within a specific sectarian branch of Hinduism' or which fall into a 'a specific sectarian branch of Hinduism' other than VaiSNavism, and if so, what are they? Best wishes, Chris Beetle From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 17 15:56:01 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 11:56:01 -0400 Subject: Author of saundaryalaharI's commentary Message-ID: <161227058591.23782.652356863377887626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Norman Brown states that the author of the SaundaryalaharI commentary, sudhAvidyotinI, is variously given as arijit or aricchit. If anybody has worked with that commentary, I would appreciate, if they could provide the exact translation of the biographical details of the author as found in the text. I am particularly interested in the version with the name 'aricchit'. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 17 11:49:35 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 12:49:35 +0100 Subject: Publications on law Message-ID: <161227058585.23782.1357165621227349777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Erik Sand wrote: >Dear list members, > >Can anybody recommend a fast and reliable source for government >publications on law. I am especially looking for laws and acts with regard >to temples and religious endowments, and especially in Maharashtra, but >also, of course, on Central Government level? Try www.nic.in for a general portal to the official Indian government websites. Maharashtra state has www.maharashtra.gov.in, from where links through Government -> Judiciary should give you the information you need. Vidyasankar From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 17 11:54:56 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 12:54:56 +0100 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058587.23782.1016281931233897604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Halebid/Dvarasamudra was captured by Malik Kafur in 1310 > aided by an Yadava king. Hoysala king, Ballala III, returned > from a war with Pandyas and accepted M. Kafur's terms. Later > Madurai too succumbed to MK. Vidyaranya saw all this, > and probably did not want to set his presence in the > political capitals of the day. > But Vidyaranya did establish a matha in the newly established capital at Hampi, so there goes this argument. Why is there this great need to mistrust the evidence at hand and speculate about what somebody centuries ago might have said or might have done? Would you consider that the Virupaksha Matha in Hampi is itself "pretending" to have been established by Vidyaranya? Vidyasankar From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed May 17 23:40:06 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 16:40:06 -0700 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058593.23782.16052070576027764740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Answering a question yesterday from George Thompson about premodern works in the West on mnemonics, I incorrectly wrote: > The granddaddy of these texts was the > pseudo-Ciceronian _Hortensius_, which was an ancient handbook for > lawyers and rhetoricians. The work I had in mind was the _Ad Herennium_, not the _Hortensius._ My memory slip was made without the benefit of formal mnemonics. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu May 18 02:59:00 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 19:59:00 -0700 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058597.23782.6840462406287535821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson writes: > I am curious about such things as the Incan quipus which have been much > discussed in the literature on mnemonics. Would you be willing to comment > on this device for us? I have never been able to understand exactly how > these rope things work. A fine scholarly overview on quipu is found in Elizabeth Hill Boone and Walter D. Mignolo, eds., _Writing without Words: Alternative Literacies in Mesoamerica & the Andes_ (Durham and London, 1994). On quipu, see esp. pp. 192-96 and 234-9. A more thorough examination is found in Marcia Ascher and Robert Ascher, _Mathematics of the Incas: Code of the Quipu_ (Dover Publications, 1997). Earlier studies of Marcia and Robert Ascher are also useful. I've posted a greyscale photo of a quipu (I unfortunately don't have a colored one on file, and the color is critical) at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/quipu.html. What we know about quipus is partly conjectural, since we are dependent on the descriptions of Spanish writers from the 16th century, who didn't fully understand what they were describing. The art of reading quipus was lost pretty quickly by the late 16th century, thanks to Spanish repression. It isn't totally clear whether we should classify quipus as mnemonic systems or writing systems. One of the first books to describe them, Acosta's _Historia natural y moral de las Indias_ (1590), claimed that everything that could be recorded in Western books could be described as well using the colors, knots, and spatial relations on the different strings that make up quipus (see the illustration via the link I've provided above). Acosta wrote: And in every bundle of these, so many greater and lesser knots, and tied strings; some red, others green, others blue, others white, in short, as many differences as we have with our twenty-four letters, arranging them in different ways to draw forth an infinity of words: so did they, with their knots and colors, draw forth innumerable meanings of things. Apparently there was a tactile element to them as well. Ascher and Ascher (1981) write: ...the quipu maker's way of recording -- direct construction -- required tactile sensitivity to a much greater degree. In fact, the overall aesthetic of the quipu is related to the tactile: the manner of recording and the recording itself are decidedly rhythmic; the first in the activity, the second in the effect. We seldom realize the potential of our sense of touch, and we are usually unaware of its association with rhythm.... In fact, tactile sensitivity begins in the rhythmic pulsating environment of the unborn child far in advance of the development of other senses. And some of this is strikingly reminiscent of Frits Staal's discussion of rhythmicity in Vedic mnemonics in _Nambudiri Veda Recitation_ (1961), esp. when he compares Nambudiri Veda recitation with Aiyar Veda recitation (pp. 37-39). The difference here, of course, is that in recitations using quipu, the 'rhythmicity' was tactile and not oral. (Or was it both? See my final comments below.) It is interesting to note that the early Spaniards who encountered quipus didn't understand that they were mnemonic devices. This saved quipus from the inquisitional fires until near the end of the sixteenth century. (Maya codices weren't so lucky, unfortunately: only four remain.) Part of the reason they didn't recognize them as memory devices worthy of destruction (since the best tool of the conqueror is to destroy social memory) was linked to the fact that the memory devices of the Inca were so *unlike* ordinary writing systems or the Spaniards' own 'memory palaces' and 'memory theaters,' which were used extensively in the New World. With a little simplification, one could argue that there were at least *three* basic types of mnemonic devices used in premodern times: the orally interwoven devices associated with Vedic traditions; the visual 'memory palaces' and the like developed in the West from Greco-Roman times on; and the tactile types used by the Incas (with similar variants used elsewhere). That covers three of the five senses. Someone could probably come up with a good argument that smells (e.g., in incense) and taste (in holy meals) served mnemonic functions as well. My Sinologist friends uniformly deny that any mnemonic devices were used in historical times by the Chinese, although there was a lot of rote memorization of texts. Since the Chinese classics are relatively short, and since there was no ban on them being written (indeed, canonical sources were often 'fixed' in late antiquity in chiseled stone) the same *need* for formal mnemonics didn't exist that existed in India. Matteo Ricci's attempts to introduce 'memory palaces' into China at the end of the 16th century were, by his own admission, rather a failure. I should point out finally that quipu was 'read' by a group of specialists, the quipucamayocs, who served in a sense as 'scribes.' The knowledge represented by the distributed knots, colors, textures, etc., of each of the strings on the quipu could be quite extensive. There is, for example, a long Spanish text describing the history of the Incas, the _Relaci?n de la Descendencia, Gobierno y Conquista de Los Incas_, that is derived from the testimony in 1542 of seven quipucamayocs, whose words were recorded by Spanish scribes. How reproducible in *words* different recitations of a quipucamayoc were is unknown, so far as I know. It would be interesting to know if there was any link between the tactile 'rhythmicity' that Ascher and Ascher note on the strings of quipus and 'rhythmicity' in the recitations of the quipucamayocs. I don't know the answer, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there were. If such a link existed, it would suggest that parallels with Vedic mnemonics might not be empty ones. Steve Farmer From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu May 18 00:43:19 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 17 May 00 20:43:19 -0400 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058595.23782.7425654106884653722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Steve Farmer for the interesting and informative post I agree that there does not seem to be anything comparable in Vedic with the 'memory palace' devices that you describe. I myself am unaware of anything as elaborate as these in India. But I am curious about such things as the Incan quipus which have been much discussed in the literature on mnemonics. Would you be willing to comment on this device for us? I have never been able to understand exactly how these rope things work. Perhaps the list in general would find your observations on this of interest. I certainly would. Best wishes, George Thompson From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu May 18 06:09:43 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 02:09:43 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058600.23782.11342997712128091323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar wrote: I agree with this solution with some minor modifications. Can't disciple lineages exist without hermitages? How about wandering ascetics? According to Norman Brown, four manuscripts of saundaryalaharI manuscripts add the epithet "paramahaMsaparivrAjaka" to zaGkarAcArya. (Is the use of this epithet restricted to bhASyakAra in other texts?) Also consider this. The cOzamAtEvi inscription of 1065 AD (mentioned by N. Ganesan sometime ago) shows that the brahmin sabhA of the locality met in the temple and donated land for those lecturing on "piratIpikam" (pradIpika) authored by one citAn2nta piTArar as a vArttika on sArIrakabhASya. (So far, I see no reason to believe that the name "piTArar" indicated an ascetic. Are there any specific reasons to exclude householders from the transmission of advaitic tradition?) Clearly, the association of advaitic tradition with temples was already there in the 11th century. A 13th century Pandyan inscription allowing for bhikSAbhoga for ekadaNDin ascetics (from lands belonging to a caturvedimangalam named after a Hoysala king!) may show a continuation of such an association. (continued in the next post) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu May 18 06:26:09 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 02:26:09 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058602.23782.17792069157414026381.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Given that advaitin ascetics had a history of receiving donations, the fact that the widow of the Hoysala king Ballala III donated land to Bharatitirtha during the Vijayotsava at Sringeri in 1346 becomes significant. Kulke says that epigraphic evidence points to tremendous increase in land donations to Sringeri after 1346. If the maTha had existed prior to 1346, there should have been some grants issued to it by the Hoysala king Ballala III or his predecessors as was done by his queen. The reason for the absence of such epigraphic evidence is probably due to the absence of an institution at Sringeri to receive such endowments. Otherwise, I do not see any need for a sudden spike in need for land grants felt by a long-established Sringeri maTha. As for tracing the founding of the maTha to Sankara, one does not have to base it on any legitimation of the Vijayanagara kings. Glorification of one's heritage is reason enough. In the Indian setting, tracing one's lineage to sun and moon and hoary antiquity has always been there. When Tamil zaivas created the myth of ziva participating in the first Tamil academy for 4440 years, they did it not for legitimizing any political dynasties but as rivals of Jains. And that myth is possibly even older than Sankara. If, as Vidyasankar points out, the recent schism of dvaita was an important event, the myth of Sankara founding the maTha may have been done in an atmosphere of rivalry with the new dvaita school. The absence of such a permanent establishment would also match the Srivaishnava tradition that mentions not a maTha at Sringeri but only that both Vedantadesika and Vidyaranya met on the banks of Tungabhadra as travelers. (I do not know how old this Srivaishnava tradition is. According to N. Jagadeesan, AcArya campu/zrI vedAntAcArya vijaya is the authentic biography of Vedantadesika.) The specific choice of Sringeri for a maTha may have been due to any number of factors such as relative seclusion, natural beauty, pre-existing reputation as a pilgrimage spot, etc., as felt by the founder or founders. Regards S. Palaniappan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu May 18 11:28:09 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 04:28:09 -0700 Subject: Studies of Vedic mnemonics Message-ID: <161227058604.23782.7961417877862365838.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are the memorization, mnemonics etc., observed in India for millennia stem at least partly from the Indus heritage? After all, there are only about ~350 unique signs which look like pictures, and these cryptic logograms do not seem to represent all the words in their language. Also, inscriptions are short average being 5 signs only. The Indus folks appear to be an oral society but for their seals even though they had their extensive contacts in the Near East which was writing on clay a lot. Was the Indus bronze age society an oral one practising atleast some of the mnemonics observed in later India?, and after the acculturation of the Indus people with the incoming Aryans developed the means of reciting? Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Thu May 18 17:22:24 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 10:22:24 -0700 Subject: Source for Indian folk tale about girl passed off as boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058612.23782.3055284551536069549.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I don't recognize it right off from any specific folk tradition. On >the other hand it does bear a striking resemblance to the well known >story of the princess AmbA (aka ZikhaNDin) in the MahAbhArata which, >in some version or other, might well have inspired the tale to which >you refer. >A patron has asked about the source of "a folk-tale from India where >in a marriage alliance, a girl was passed off as a boy and she was >saved by a tiger at the moment where it was about to be discovered >that she was a girl. Eventually her sex was changed into a boy and the >tale ends well." I am referring her to Stith Thompson's Motif index >of folk literature, Oral tales of India, and Types of Indic folk >tales. But does anyone recognize this right off? > >Thanks, > >Allen > > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. -- Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From athr at LOC.GOV Thu May 18 15:20:42 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 11:20:42 -0400 Subject: Source for Indian folk tale about girl passed off as boy Message-ID: <161227058610.23782.7893006508839439980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A patron has asked about the source of "a folk-tale from India where in a marriage alliance, a girl was passed off as a boy and she was saved by a tiger at the moment where it was about to be discovered that she was a girl. Eventually her sex was changed into a boy and the tale ends well." I am referring her to Stith Thompson's Motif index of folk literature, Oral tales of India, and Types of Indic folk tales. But does anyone recognize this right off? Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Thu May 18 12:06:58 2000 From: a.korn at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (agnes korn) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 14:06:58 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[Fwd:_[Fwd:_=C3=9Cbersetzung!]]?= Message-ID: <161227058607.23782.11983180590764162773.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- ........................................................................ Agnes Korn Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. + 49 - 69 - 798 22 847 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax + 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt : mailto:a.korn at em.uni-frankfurt.de -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 3836 URL: From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 19 02:48:33 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 19:48:33 -0700 Subject: a question for the traditionalists among us In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000517154208.00de77d0@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227058614.23782.2441854694970508405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:42 AM 05/17/2000 -0400, Chris Beetle wrote : >Are there verses in Puranas and/or related texts advocating gurus who do not >fall 'within a specific sectarian branch of Hinduism' or which fall into a >'a specific sectarian branch of Hinduism' other than VaiSNavism, and if so, >what are they? I do not have a list of references from the Puranas, but the book mentioned by J. Houben on this matter is a very good place to start (by the way, the author is Steinmann, not Steiner). The "Guru-Gita" is widely available through the (zaiva) Siddha Yoga Foundation. An interesting passage is TaittirIya UpaniSad 1.11, which seems to concede that Vedic students can distinguish between the good and bad behavior of teachers. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri May 19 05:31:54 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 18 May 00 22:31:54 -0700 Subject: Early Thai Religion Message-ID: <161227058617.23782.6454975139056928902.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Might any list members be able to offer data on Early Thai Religion? I am particularly interested in the southern Isthums of Kra region from the 8th to 12th centuries. Up to now, all I could find is: 1) Chirapravati, Pattaratorn. ?The Cult of Votive Tablets in Thailand (6th to 13th centuries)? (Ph.D. diss., Cornell University, 1994); and 2) Tiyavanich, Kamala. _Forest Recollections: Wandering Ascetics in 20th Century Thailand_ (University of Hawai?i Press, 1997), 303-4, n. 22. Chirapravati?s work is especially revealing. She is an art historian who studied the iconography and stylistic development of votive tablets and stupas discovered in Thailand by archaeologists. In her academic work, she excerpts a broad range of religious traditions that flourished between the 6th and 13th centuries around the Isthmus of Kra and the northern portion of the (Malayan) Peninsula, i.e., the region that makes up present day southern Thailand. The votive tablets are small icons, usually made of baked or unbaked clay using a press-mold technique. They originated from India but were known in Thai as phra phi tham or ?tablets made by spirits/angels.? According to her thesis, every tablet contains an idea of the particular sect it represents. The study indicates that the fifth-century Hindu kingdom of Sathing Phra (present day Songkhla) was one of the earliest and most interesting kingdoms on record. It was an important port and extremely ancient city. It was a purely Hindu kingdom from the 5th to the 8th century CE. A Hinayana Buddhist school prospered there in the 7th and 8th centuries. During the late 9th to the early 11th centuries, Mahayana Buddhism from Nalanda and Java took root and flowered. Indeed, a cursory survey of the Buddhist schools alone is enough to show that, by comparison, the Buddhism practiced by the early Thai was far more diverse than that of Tibet. The existence of multiple Hinayanic sects is adequately documented. Archaeological data indicate that the Muulasarvastivaada was the dominant Hinayanic school. It prospered in Sathing Phra and in Phatthalung in 7th and 8th centuries right alongside varied Brahmanic-Hindu cults. Mahayana Buddhism had already been introduced into the region at this time. By the 9th century, Vajarayana Buddhism reached the Zriivijaya kingdom, possibly through Java. Its particular sentiment was brilliantly expressed through highly evolved modes of religious statuary. Chinese records, local inscriptions and archaeological remains show that from the end of the 7th through the 11th century the Mahayanic Maadhyamika and Caityaka (or Mahaasa?ghika) schools were especially active along the southern Isthmus coasts. So were the Pure Land cults of Avalokitezvara and Amitaabha, which spread from China southward. The Pure Land cult was dominant there from the 8th to 11th century. Khmer-influenced sculptures of Avalokitezvara and Maitreya dating from the 7th to 9th century were found further north in Lopburi (an old Mon capital) and in villages around Nakhon Ratchasima and Buriram in the region known today as northeastern Thailand. Best regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Fri May 19 09:59:22 2000 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 09:59:22 +0000 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? Message-ID: <161227058619.23782.6929789047936730717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May 19, 2000 TO: Indology Scholars & Friends 1. Should life and work of the mystic poet Kabir belong in our Hindu Temple Library ? "Yes" or "No" with reasons please. 2. What was the essence of Kabir's message ? Did Emperor Akbar take his ideas for combining religions he found in India into one from Kabir ? Is there any evidence that Akbar was influenced by Kabir ? 3. Can anyone refer me to the English translation that Rabindra Nath Tagore made of select verses of Kabir ? Does anyone have a copy of this book ? 4. Everone in India seem to know the name Kabir but very little details about this man. Why is he still remembered so widely even without much details ? Do the Muslims consider him one of their own or is he considered to be a "Hindu" by the Muslims of India despite his Muslim origins ? 5. I understand that he lived at a time just before Mogul Dynasty founder, Babur, who stormed into India from Central Asia around 1200 AD ?. And yet people in India still remember Kabir as if he lived only a few years ago ! Why ? Finally, I want extend a special thank you for the wonderful advice and referals I have been given for our Northern Virginia Library, phase I. We are now in the process of activating a small group of "scholars and elders" to review and get our library started soon. Thank you very much. Avi Dey Coordinator Hindu Temple Library Northern Virginia, USA. [admin note: date changed from Fri May 19 02:45:00 1972] From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri May 19 15:59:23 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 09:59:23 -0600 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058621.23782.8398689734993558524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Avi Dey wrote: >1. Should life and work of the mystic poet Kabir belong in our Hindu >Temple Library ? "Yes" or "No" with reasons please. Yes. Vaishnav author Nabhadas in his Bhakta-Mal (1585) writes: hindU turuk pramAn ramainI sabadI sAkhI pachchhapat nahiN bachan sabahiN ke hit kI bhAkhI [His "ramaini" "shabda" "sakhi" (sections of his "Bijak") are accepted by Hindus and Turks alike. He spoke without discrimination for the good of all] Kabir was very influencial. Several panths in India, specially Sikhism, were inspired by him. Kabir represents openness of the Hindu society. Religious criticism has traditionally been accepted in India. Sarahapa, Ram Simh, Kabir, the Sikh Gurus, Swami Dayananda etc have criticized existing practices and beliefs. >2. What was the essence of Kabir's message ? Did Emperor Akbar take his >ideas for combining religions he found in India into one from Kabir ? >Is there any evidence that Akbar was influenced by Kabir ? He was one of the Bhakti pioneers, along with the Vaishnavas. While Kabir was brought up as a Muslim, and he stressed that Hindus and Muslim are same, his philosophy basically belongs to the Hindu and not the Muslim tradition. Kabir was dead when Akbar was born. He may have been influenced indirectly. Akbar appears to have been accepting of multiple traditions, while Kabir questioned all traditions. >3. Can anyone refer me to the English translation that Rabindra >Nath Tagore made of select verses of Kabir ? Does anyone have a >copy of this book ? Songs of Kabir by Kabir, Rabindranath Tagore (Translator) ISBN: 0877286957 is out of print currently. Other translations are available. It should be available in libraries. >4. Everyone in India seem to know the name Kabir but very >little details about this man. Why is he still remembered >so widely even without much details ? Do the Muslims consider >him one of their own or is he considered >to be a "Hindu" by the Muslims of India despite his Muslim >origins ? He did have Muslim followers, but his movement was basically a Hindu one (using the original definition of the term). I haven't seen Muslims discussing him. Some consider him a sufi. >5. I understand that he lived at a time just before Mogul >Dynasty founder, Babur, who stormed into India from Central >Asia around 1200 AD ?. And yet people in India still remember >Kabir as if he lived only a few years ago ! >Why ? His time is about 1398-1518, he is said to have lived more than a 100 years. There is some disagreement about the dates. He is one of the most quoted Hindi authors, perhaps right after Tulsidas. Yashwant http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/kabir.html From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 19 18:16:08 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 11:16:08 -0700 Subject: Early Thai Religion Message-ID: <161227058627.23782.11255764096922396250.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Besides some Tamil inscriptions of maNigrAma/merchant-guilds that quote Srivaishnava Alvars, the early bronzes and the writing script from Thailand show Pallavas' influence. Thai ramayana and Kamba r.'s parallels were studied by S. Singaravelu, Univ. of Malaya. Now a lawyer in Sangapore. Prof. Singaravelu's papers are important for the relations between S. India and Thailand. See Avalokita with Amitaaba bronzes in the classic study by T. N. Ramachandran, Nagapattinam bronzes. For Ceylon Avalokitas, J. C. Holt, Buddha in the crown. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Fri May 19 16:24:27 2000 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Raj Adhikary) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 11:24:27 -0500 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058624.23782.16736742542018719665.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Songs of Kabir by Kabir, Rabindranath Tagore (Translator)" is found in all mojor US libraries. Kamal At 9:59 AM -0600 5/19/00, Yashwant Malaiya wrote: >Avi Dey wrote: > >>1. Should life and work of the mystic poet Kabir belong in our Hindu >>Temple Library ? "Yes" or "No" with reasons please. > >Yes. Vaishnav author Nabhadas in his Bhakta-Mal (1585) writes: > >hindU turuk pramAn ramainI sabadI sAkhI >pachchhapat nahiN bachan sabahiN ke hit kI bhAkhI > >[His "ramaini" "shabda" "sakhi" (sections of his "Bijak") are >accepted by Hindus and Turks alike. He spoke without discrimination >for the good of all] > >Kabir was very influencial. Several panths in India, specially >Sikhism, were inspired by him. > >Kabir represents openness of the Hindu society. Religious >criticism has traditionally been accepted in India. Sarahapa, >Ram Simh, Kabir, the Sikh Gurus, Swami Dayananda etc have >criticized existing practices and beliefs. > >>2. What was the essence of Kabir's message ? Did Emperor Akbar take his >>ideas for combining religions he found in India into one from Kabir ? >>Is there any evidence that Akbar was influenced by Kabir ? > >He was one of the Bhakti pioneers, along with the Vaishnavas. >While Kabir was brought up as a Muslim, and he stressed that >Hindus and Muslim are same, his philosophy basically belongs >to the Hindu and not the Muslim tradition. > >Kabir was dead when Akbar was born. He may have been influenced >indirectly. Akbar appears to have been accepting of multiple >traditions, while Kabir questioned all traditions. > >>3. Can anyone refer me to the English translation that Rabindra >>Nath Tagore made of select verses of Kabir ? Does anyone have a >>copy of this book ? > >Songs of Kabir >by Kabir, Rabindranath Tagore (Translator) >ISBN: 0877286957 > >is out of print currently. Other translations are available. >It should be available in libraries. > >>4. Everyone in India seem to know the name Kabir but very >>little details about this man. Why is he still remembered >>so widely even without much details ? Do the Muslims consider >>him one of their own or is he considered >>to be a "Hindu" by the Muslims of India despite his Muslim >>origins ? > >He did have Muslim followers, but his movement was basically >a Hindu one (using the original definition of the term). > >I haven't seen Muslims discussing him. Some consider him a >sufi. > >>5. I understand that he lived at a time just before Mogul >>Dynasty founder, Babur, who stormed into India from Central >>Asia around 1200 AD ?. And yet people in India still remember >>Kabir as if he lived only a few years ago ! >>Why ? > >His time is about 1398-1518, he is said to have lived more >than a 100 years. There is some disagreement about the dates. > >He is one of the most quoted Hindi authors, perhaps right after >Tulsidas. > >Yashwant > >http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/kabir.html _________________________________________________ Where are the songs of Spring? Ay, where are they? Think not of them, thou hast thy music too,___ From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Fri May 19 17:14:28 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 18:14:28 +0100 Subject: Early Thai Religion Message-ID: <161227058625.23782.1984735747659478398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ven. Tantra, >Might any list members be able to offer data on Early >Thai Religion? I am particularly interested in the >southern Isthums of Kra region from the 8th to 12th >centuries. > >Up to now, all I could find is: >1) Chirapravati, Pattaratorn. =ECThe Cult of Votive >Tablets in Thailand (6th to 13th centuries)=EE (Ph.D. >diss., Cornell University, 1994); and This was new to me; so in return: Skilling, Peter, "The Advent of Theravaada Buddhism to Mainland South-east Asia," Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies , 20, 1, 1997, 93-107. Skilling, Peter, "New Paali Inscriptions from South-east Asia," Journal of the Pali Text Society , XXIII, 1997, 123-158. Information about Buddhist schools could have important implications for the study of the Buddhist schools in India; so this is not really off-list. >According to her thesis, every tablet contains an idea >of the particular sect it represents. One has to have doubts here. It is extremely difficult to identify = specific schools on the basis of archaeological data unless there are = actually named inscriptions. >highly evolved modes of religious statuary. Chinese >records, local inscriptions and archaeological remains >show that from the end of the 7th through the 11th >century the Mahayanic Maadhyamika and Caityaka (or >Mahaasa=96ghika) schools were especially active along >the southern Isthmus coasts. In fact Indian inscriptions which were originally taken as = identifying the Caityaka school (cetiyava.mdaka or similar) are now = considered simply to refer to worshippers of cetiyas i.e. stuupas. So = one would want fairly solid evidence for the presence of a Caityaka = school. >So were the Pure Land >cults of Avalokitezvara and Amitaabha, which spread >from China southward. The Pure Land cult was dominant >there from the 8th to 11th century. Khmer-influenced >sculptures of Avalokitezvara and Maitreya dating from >the 7th to 9th century were found further north in >Lopburi (an old Mon capital) and in villages around >Nakhon Ratchasima and Buriram in the region known >today as northeastern Thailand. This may be correct, but sculptures of Avalokite"svara are found in = many locations e.g. Ceylon. So that and the use of Sanskrit may = sometimes simply evidence the presence of other forms of Theravaada = from there. All this data requires a lot of care in its use. Lance Cousins -- = HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat May 20 01:55:53 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 18:55:53 -0700 Subject: Early Thai Religion Message-ID: <161227058631.23782.15644885859053180893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanking Lance Cousins who wrote: "Information about Buddhist schools could have important implications for the study of the Buddhist schools in India; so this is not really off-list." Certainly not "off-list." Three hundred years before the Common Era, Indian kings already knew of the far off land called Suvar?abh?mi. This almost mythical ?Land of Gold? was distinguished quite literally for its immense reserves of gold and other natural resources. Indeed, there are ancient Sanskrit treatises that classify Cambodia as one of the great sixteen states of India. It began no later than the 1st century CE, coinciding with the prosperous Indianized kingdom of Funan. In those days Cambodia was an overseas Hindu colony called Kambuja-deZa. It seems to have achieved near-epical acclaim as an Indo-Chinese El Dorado. The highly fertile and well-watered region corresponded roughly to the broad geographical basin that stretches today from southern Burma eastward to the Mekong Delta. My study was actually initiated by Guru Chod of Bangkok(1900-1988), Thailand's great Yoga Master. Chod was an ethnic Indian of Khmer Brahman genealogy. It is not the so-called "Theravaada" Buddhist history of Thailand that I am interested in at all. It is more centered on the Khmer and therefore Brahmanical influence. Prior to the thirteenth-century arrival of Sinhalese Theravaada Buddhism to the area that is known today as Thailand, manifold Hindu, Braahmanic, Mahaayaanic, Vajrayaanic and Tantrayaanic sects flourished side by side throughout the diverse and overlapping kingdoms. But the dominant religious force of the region can only be described as Braahmanism. Braahmanism, per se, is a product of Ancient India. It is not equivalent to Hinduism. Brahmanism is a cultural child of the Pre-Hindu Vedic period in India. It can also be referred to as Vedic culture. Of course the sasana or ?religion? of the Thai population is by and large Buddhist, and decidedly of the Southern Hiinayaanic School of Theravaada, or ?Doctrine of the Elders." But it would properly be referred to as Sinhalese Buddhism, as Zrii Lankaa was the place where it first took form. It may also be described as Paali Buddhism as it strictly adheres to the Paali Language literature compiled by the ancient Sinhalese. It regards this extensive body of scripture as its paramount ecclesiastical authority. It is a highly differentiating class of Buddhist faith with a strong predilection to conceive itself in contradistinction to a perceived state of corruption into which all other Buddhist sects have descended. More important still, it needs to be suggested that the Theravaada is a historical construction. As previously mentioned, Sinhalese Buddhism first entered the Central Plains of early Thailand around the second half of the 13th century. It flourished there under the patronage of the Siamese Sukhothai court and steadily displaced Khmer Vajrayaana. In about the second half of 13th century the Sukhothai kings took control of the southern Isthmus kingdom of Nakhon Sri Thammarat and, accordingly, introduced Sinhalese Buddhism, which gained predominance and displaced all forms of religious practice. In 1902 the Siamese king passed the Sa.ngha Act and imposed an ?official? form of standardized Buddhism over the whole of Siam?s extended realm. One by one the various kingdoms came increasingly under the centralized control of Bangkok?s religious authorities. Political changes followed as well. With the bloodless revolution of 1932, Thailand ceased to be an absolute monarchy and established its present day constitutional monarchy along lines similar to the British model. In this way, royalty staunchly remains as a sacrosanct pillar of the Thai Triumvirate. This is institutionally ritualized in the cult of the Devaraaja as adopted by Siamese kings from their royal Khmer predecessors as early as the 14th century. Best regards, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat May 20 06:28:11 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 19 May 00 23:28:11 -0700 Subject: Early Thai Religion Message-ID: <161227058638.23782.4900729355997813304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Steven Hodge, who wrote: 1. "Is this the same pace as Suvar.na-dviipa? I have always understood from Buddhist and other sources that this is an old name for Sumatra." It is my understanding that Survar.nabhuumi applied to the whole of what is also considered Greater Overseas India, comprising Kambuja-deZa, Sumatra, Malaya and the other Indonesian island states 2. "There was also a Kaambuja to the north of India -- this is possibly the one included among the 16 janapadas." You could well be right there. But I am recalling (by memory) R.C. Majumdar, _Kambuja-deZa, or An Ancient Hindu Colony in Cambodia_, published as the Sir William Meyer Lectures 1942-43 (University of Madras, 1944). To examine Early Thai Religion, one needs to study Early Cambodia where Indianization began no later than the 1st century CE, coinciding with the prosperous kingdom of Funan. This early Funanese dominion spread across what would today be the southern part of Cambodia and the Mekong Delta. Its wealth came mainly from maritime trade. It was favorably positioned at the crossroads of the ancient world?s major sea routes that linked the Mediterranean with the China Sea. Commercial exchanges with Rome are certain, and by implication Egypt too. Roman coins of Antonius the Pious, dated 152, and others representing Marcus Aurelius have been found at excavation sites. Eight centuries later the Angkorian Empire rose, with its center at the Great Temple City of Angkor Vat. The complete historical movement of the Khmer kings extended more than a thousand years until its eventual decline in the 13th century. Still, in its heyday, Khmer Civilization spread to eclipse nearly the entire Indo-Chinese peninsula from the Bay of Bengal to the China Sea. Its rulers bore Hindu, or Vedic names such as Har.savarma.n, Jayavarma.n, YaZovarma.n and Suuryavarma.n. They learned the elements of classical Sanskrit and introduced many of its forms into their own High Khmer language. These facts reflect an intense assimilation of Braahmanical-Vedic culture. Yet the thoroughness in which this culture was imported and absorbed into the fields of literature, science, art and religion cannot be explained by Cambodia?s intimate connection with Motherland India alone. Such marked propagation was also due to the flourishing numbers of cultural institutions, conservatories, and diverse ascetic hermitages (aaZrama) that spread across the country. Cambodian rulers themselves were responsible for maintaining these citadels of Indian civilization. Best wishes, Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zydenbos at GMX.LI Fri May 19 22:09:47 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 00:09:47 +0200 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058629.23782.13646421041404917576.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear VS, Thank you for numerous interesting thoughts and bits of information, which inspire one to read Hacker and Kulke again, along with things you have mentioned. But for the moment I would like to send these few sentences in return: Am 16 May 2000, um 00:45 schrieb Vidyasankar Sundaresan: [Basava, Allama, sunyasimhasana] 7F00,0000,0000> But Basava did not go further and claim that this was an > institution that had existed for many centuries before him. Also, > note that in the earliest Vijayanagara inscriptions, Vidyasankara > > does not seem to be a living person at all. He is already a > "devaru," for whom a temple is being built and worship is being > instituted. I do not think that his being referred to as "devaru" necessarily means that he was no longer among the living. Allama / Allamaprabhu was also referred to as "Prabhudevaru" very early, if I remember correctly. [Madhva] 7F00,0000,0000> And let's not forget that Madhva from Udipi, who broke away from > the Sankaran monastic tradition, was also pre-Vijayanagara. There > had to have been a substantial presence of the Sankaran tradition > in that part of the country, before someone could break away from > it. That is clear, and nobody in the Maadhva tradition will deny it. A good deal of the narrative of the Madhvavijaya is precisely about this; but I don't believe that in the older Maadhva records (like the Madhvavijaya; unfortunately I do not have a copy at hand right now) there is mention of a _matha_ at Sringeri, although Sringeri was not far from Madhva's home ground. [Is Shrisha Rao reading this? Do you know, SR?] Since the role of Sankarites in the Madhvavijaya is so prominent, we could consider it highly meaningful for the dating of the Sringeri matha whether a matha is mentioned there or not. 0000,0000,0000[legitimation] 7F00,0000,0000> For example, take Kulke's view of the legitimation of > Vijayanagara. It is not clear to me why Sankara needs to be > invoked for this. [...] Why should Sankara become important only > in the 14th century, and not earlier? To suggest that Vidyaranya > invoked Sankara's name primarily for this purpose does not seem > legitimate at all. We also need to look at what that "legitimation" signifies. Is it a legitimation of Vijayanagara as just another big empire, or as a bulwark of pre-Mughal traditions and values that also wants to push back the influence of Delhi? I think only the second possibility would favour the Sankarite imagery. The other prominent religious traditions, like the Maadhva and Virasaiva (also politically influential in Vijayanagara) would at the time have been less useful in appealing to northern India, where, on the other hand, the Sankarite tradition had already spread. [Padmavati / Sarada] 7F00,0000,0000> It seems to me that it would have been easier to Brahminize the > Jaina Padmavati into a form of Sri/Lakshmi, through an association > with the lotus. The Sankaravijaya legend of Sankara's composition > of the Kanakadhara hymn to Lakshmi would have also come in handy. > Not to mention that there already was a Padmavati as a consort of > Vishnu in south India, as at Tirupati. Why Brahminize her as > Sarada, a form of Sarasvati, who is traditionally impoverished and > at loggerheads with Lakshmi?!! Iconographically also, it does not > seem to make much sense. It makes more sense when viewed from the Jaina angle. On the one hand, yes, Padmavati is a goddess of prosperity, like Lakshmi; but she is also associated with learning. There is such a thing as a Sahasranama of Padmavati, and one of her epithets actually is "Sarasvati". She is also known as a ;saasanadevataa or "divinity of the doctrine", a protectress of higher learning. Seen in this light, a switch from Padmavati to Sarada is less puzzling. [Buddha / Gommatesvara] 7F00,0000,0000> Why is substitution of Gommatesvara for Buddha as part of the > Dasavataras a sign of opposition? Because of the ninth avatara > being described as one that purposely misleads people? And because, if the ninth 'slot' is actually meant for the Buddha, there must have been a special reason for putting Gommatesvara there. [alliances] 7F00,0000,0000> Again it is not clear what sort of strategic alliances with other > parts of India can be ascribed to Vidyaranya and the Vijayanagara > rulers. We do know that more often than not, Vijayanagara emperors > and the Gajapatis of Orissa were fighting each other for control > of the Krishna and Godavari deltas. To give a possible latter-day parallel: the USSR and USA were allies until the end of World War II, when other concerns became more prominent. The idea of the "four mathas founded by Sankara" might have been part of an attempt at creating a geopolitical solidarity which failed or was too weak or shortlived to be politically effective at the time but was maintained in religious circles. 0000,0000,0000[Chandramoulisvara] 7F00,0000,0000> As for a Chandramoulisvara linga at Sringeri, the above is not > just a Virasaiva claim. Sringeri's own Guruvamsakavya, probably an > 18th century text, itself says that Renukacharya/Revana-siddha > gave a Sivalinga to one of the Sringeri mathadhipatis. The poet > does not seem to have seen this as an indication of Sringeri > recognizing Rambhapuri as superior. Some Virasaivas see the gifting of the Chandramoulisvara as a kind of lingadiksa, which would make Renukacharya the diksaguru (and thereby a superior, in a sense) of his Sringeri contemporary who accepted it. Personally I think this is an exaggerated view. But the episode is interesting as an illustration of what seem to have been more relaxed times of friendly relations between different traditions. [matha / hermitage] I get the impression that at least part of this discussion hinges on the question when something is / becomes a "matha". As Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan also asked: must lineages have mathas? To give two other parallels from Karnataka: Madhva gave eight pupils the responsibility of continuing the worship of Krishna at Udupi, and these pupils had their own pupils, and this was the beginning of lineages; but mathas? These appear to have been formed a bit later. Or: the Jaina presence at Shravanabelagola is ancient, tradition placing its beginning in the 3rd cent. BC, but it seems that it was only in the 10th century that a matha was established with support from the Ganga dynasty. Similarly, the rulers of Vijayanagara could have lent their support towards establishing a Sankarite matha at Sringeri, on the basis of an earlier, more humble settlement. From what you say about the other texts: 7F00,0000,0000> 1. they are attested in pre-Vidyaranya times, and > 2. they are attributed to Sankaracharya, a probable reference to a > holder of the title. > Therefore, it follows that either there were titular > Sankaracharyas before Vidyaranya, or all these pre-Vidyaranya > texts are authentic. it looks as if a not entirely warranted jump is made from "probable reference" to "therefore... titular Sankaracharyas". Is every Sankaracharya a titular head of a matha? (Cf. all the Nagarjunas among the Buddhists.) Hacker's and Kulke's view still does not look unreasonable. By which I of course do not mean that it should be considered unquestionable; but it does offer an answer to the question why it is only so long after Sankara that we have a clear statement about a "matha". The argument ex silencio can work in both ways, but the parallels in other traditions suggest that H. and K. could be right. RZ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 7923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat May 20 02:32:46 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 03:32:46 +0100 Subject: Early Thai Religion Message-ID: <161227058633.23782.14229717320698346162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: > Indian kings already knew of the far > off land called Suvar.nabhuumi. Is this the same pace as Suvar.na-dviipa ? I have always understood from Buddhist and other sources that this is an old name for Sumatra. > Indeed, there are ancient Sanskrit > treatises that classify Cambodia as one of the great > sixteen states of India. There was also a Kaambuja to the north of India -- this is possibly the one included among the 16 janapadas. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 20 10:56:09 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 06:56:09 -0400 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058642.23782.8321254082158230843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 May 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > On Fri, 19 May 1972, Tein Network wrote: > > 4. Do the Muslims consider Kabir one of their own or is he considered > > to be a "Hindu" by the Muslims of India despite his Muslim origins ? > > Neither Orthodox Muslims (Wahhabis), nor Orthodox Hindus (Vaidiks and > Brahmanists) consider him as belonging to their faiths. It is for this > reason that Kabirpanthis are attacked and perseccuted by the Hindus : > > http://www.secularindia.com/sangh_parivar_sena_target_secular1.htm > > Likewise, Wahhabi polemics are full of diatribes against the likes of > Kabir. However, the Wahhabis comprise only 5-10 % of all Muslims (who are > predominantly Hanafi) as compared to the Orthodox Hindus, who comprise > more than 90 % of all Hindus. Thus, only a few `Hindus' (who are not > recognised as such by the mainstream Manuwadins) belonging to fringe sects > and certain lower castes consider him Hindus. But most Muslims would > consider him a `Sufi' Muslim. > Kabir is not taken as a Hindu, but is highly respected as a saint by all Hindus. Kabir was a part of core literature while we were in school in India. To state Kabir is despised by Hindus would be a great distortion. I come from Puri in India. Among the prayers offered to the deities is one composed by a Musilm mystic. Hindus know that Salabega was Muslim, but they also know he was a more sincere devotee than many of them. > > 1. Should life and work of the mystic poet Kabir belong in our Hindu > > Temple Library ? "Yes" or "No" with reasons please. > The answer is a resounding "yes". > Kabir did not accept the caste system, opposed Manuwadi and did not accept > the Brahmins. Thus he is considered a nastik by Orthodox Hindus. Thus, if > the Hindu Temple Library is Orthodox Hindu, then including his works will > raise eyebrows. However, if it is `Neo-Hindu' or belongs to some fringe > `Vaishnava' sect, then Kabir should not cause any problems. Perhaps some > of the Vaishnava experts on thist list can elucidate as to which sub-sects > accept, and which do not accept Kabir. > Everyone accepts Kabir's teachings. As I said above Hindus have accepted and continue to accept prophets from all religions. None of the Kabir's work will raise eyebrows anywhere. > > 2. What was the essence of Kabir's message ? Did Emperor Akbar take his > > ideas for combining religions he found in India into one from Kabir ? > > Is there any evidence that Akbar was influenced by Kabir ? > > Both followed Sufism. There was a whole Sufi movement going on at the > time, and to attribute it to one single person is perhaps far-fetched. > Kabir is a precursor to Nanak. God does not sit in temples or mosques. God is in us and God is in a name. It's our conduct that makes us good, not where we are born. Kabir has to be read by all. I visited Kabir's house in Varanasi in 1992. It's in the muslim area and normally the area is tense. Transports won't go. I walked and was greeted with extremely friendly Muslim people. Previous day I had been to Tulasi Ghat on the banks. I had the simlar awe in both locations. Best regards, Bijoy Misra > From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat May 20 07:23:12 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 08:23:12 +0100 Subject: kabir Message-ID: <161227058640.23782.3967780803648277150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hinduism is an undefined religion. It has no founder,no book, no commandments,no organized church.Therefore any reaction to Hinduism that arises cannot be disowned by Hinduism itself. In this respect Hinduism is like a mathematical group. In a mathematical group,when a ( permissible) operation is performed on a member, the result is yet another member. The question is not whether Kabir is to be recognized as a Hindu or not.( His mother was a Brahmin widow,who abandoned him because of "Lok-laj" as our school text pointed out.Kabir was brought up by a Muslim weaver.) The question is whether Hinduism can disown what Kabir said.The answer is No. More generally because of the above cosiderations, the relationship between Hinduism and (other)Indian-born religions remains asymmetrical.They can disown Hinduism but not vice versa. In short, any library on Hinduism would be incompleyte without Kabir (and others like him). From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sat May 20 06:27:51 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 11:57:51 +0530 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058635.23782.7158981309524815874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 19 May 1972, Tein Network wrote: > 4. Do the Muslims consider Kabir one of their own or is he considered > to be a "Hindu" by the Muslims of India despite his Muslim origins ? Neither Orthodox Muslims (Wahhabis), nor Orthodox Hindus (Vaidiks and Brahmanists) consider him as belonging to their faiths. It is for this reason that Kabirpanthis are attacked and perseccuted by the Hindus : http://www.secularindia.com/sangh_parivar_sena_target_secular1.htm Likewise, Wahhabi polemics are full of diatribes against the likes of Kabir. However, the Wahhabis comprise only 5-10 % of all Muslims (who are predominantly Hanafi) as compared to the Orthodox Hindus, who comprise more than 90 % of all Hindus. Thus, only a few `Hindus' (who are not recognised as such by the mainstream Manuwadins) belonging to fringe sects and certain lower castes consider him Hindus. But most Muslims would consider him a `Sufi' Muslim. > 1. Should life and work of the mystic poet Kabir belong in our Hindu > Temple Library ? "Yes" or "No" with reasons please. Kabir did not accept the caste system, opposed Manuwadi and did not accept the Brahmins. Thus he is considered a nastik by Orthodox Hindus. Thus, if the Hindu Temple Library is Orthodox Hindu, then including his works will raise eyebrows. However, if it is `Neo-Hindu' or belongs to some fringe `Vaishnava' sect, then Kabir should not cause any problems. Perhaps some of the Vaishnava experts on thist list can elucidate as to which sub-sects accept, and which do not accept Kabir. > 2. What was the essence of Kabir's message ? Did Emperor Akbar take his > ideas for combining religions he found in India into one from Kabir ? > Is there any evidence that Akbar was influenced by Kabir ? Both followed Sufism. There was a whole Sufi movement going on at the time, and to attribute it to one single person is perhaps far-fetched. Yours, Samar. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun May 21 00:35:44 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 17:35:44 -0700 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058647.23782.1085438279367773664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'd like to add a correction to Shailendra Raj Mehta's interesting recent post: George Thompson clearly wasn't claiming that mnemonic devices weren't used in Vedic traditions. All that he said was that he knew of no elaborate mnemonics in India based on the construction of complex visual associations, like those found in Western 'memory palaces.' Thompson obviously is well acquainted with Vedic mnemonics, which are based on modifications of sounds and rhythms in canonical texts and not on associations (as in the West) between sounds and visual images. The fact that a long string of famous memorists has existed in India (as Shailendra shows) doesn't, moreover, imply that they were using visual mnemonics -- or any formal mnemonics at all. Neuropsychological testing of memorists in the past two decades has shown that extensive practice on its own, even in the absense of formal mnemonics, can do the trick. A good review of the literature is found in Charles P. Thompson, Thaddeus M. Cowan, and Jerome Frieman, _Memory Search by a Memorist_ (Hillsdale, NJ, 1993). Thompson et al. studied one famous Indian mnemonist, Rajan Srinivasan Mahadevan, at Kansas State University over a period of three years. Among his other feats, Rajan could rapidly repeat from memory the first 31,811 digits of pi. As Thompson et al. showed in a long series of experiments, the speed with which Rajan made his recitation ruled out the possibility that his method involved visual associations ('memory palace' type mnemonics). In chapt. 8 of their book, moreover, Thompson et al. looked at thirteen famous memorists and found that while a few of them *did* use visual mnemonics (one was Luria's famous memorist, Shereshevskii), the majority did not. In most cases, years of practice in rote memorization did the job. In most cases, phenomenal feats of memorization were limited to particular modalities: e.g., mnemonists who could memorize long chains of numbers quickly often couldn't recall textual data encountered once any better than 'normal' subjects. In other cases, the reverse was true -- it all depended on what kind of data the subjects had spent most of their time memorizing over the years. Although some genetic component might be operative, long and hard practice seemed to be the critical factor -- no matter whether or any mnemonic method was used. The fact that even ordinary memories can be trained to perform spectacular feats of memory *without* the use of visual association was demonstrated in a famous series of experiments by KA Ericsson and his colleagues in the 1980s. For one brief overview, see Science 208 (1980), 1181-1182. Abstracts of several more recent papers by Ericsson and his colleagues can be seen by typing in "Ericsson KA" in Medline at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi. Under ordinary conditions, most people can repeat at most a list of seven random numbers read to them once. In their early papers, Ericsson et al. showed that with extensive practice even ordinary subjects could be trained to repeat back error free lists of up to *80* numbers heard once. Again, extensive practice in memorization was key -- NOT the use of any elaborate mnemonics, whether of the visual 'memory palace' type used in the West OR the kinds of oral transformations used by Vedic reciters. Everything depends on neural plasticity and lots of motivation and practice -- nothing more. Ericsson's research potentially carries one major implication for studies of Vedic recitation. Both native and European Vedicists (e.g., Staal), often claim that the reason for the extraordinary accuracy of Vedic recitation has to do with the variety of complex mnemonic devices used in training Vedic reciters. Staal, e.g., argues in _Oral Tradition and the Origins of Science_ that manifold verbal 'modifications render the oral transmission even more firm and stable' (referring to the kinds of modifications involved in recitations of samhita, padapatha, kramapatha, jatapatha, ghanapatha, etc.). One possible implication of Ericsson's work -- and I only raise this as a possibility -- is that *no* mnemonics at all may be necessary for 'tape-recorder-quality transmission': Extensive practice alone may get the job done. In China, so far as my Sinologists tell me, phenomenal feats of memorization were achieved using only what E. Bruce Brooks (of _The Original Analects_ fame) dubs tongue-in-cheek as 'knuckle-cracking mnemonics.' Bruce writes (personal communication): The memory device is rote repetition, all day every day for hours and the usual thump of the knuckle as corrective (same device, by the way, with the Japanese Palace gagaku musicians, they say the pieces from memory, using note names, hour after hour by their father's bed in the morning as the father is sleeping, except that when they say a wrong solfa syllable, the father's knuckle comes down on their head). The great feats of Vedic recitation, on this view, may not be due to the types of mnemonics used, but to the extraordinary motivation that arose ritualistically from *having* to get the sounds right -- since if they were wrong, the order of things in the universe (or at least the order of things in the reciter's life) was endangered. That would keep reciters practicing even harder than reciters in the West or in China, for whom the meanings of the texts were, at heart, more important than the sounds (as is supposedly the case for Vedic reciters). I've often suspected that the great feats of memory reported in the West had more to do with rote memorization than with 'memory palaces,' despite the huge number of books written on that topic. I suspect -- and it is just a suspicion at this point -- that the same might be true of famous feats of Vedic recitation. To steal a phrase from Brooks: I suspect that formal memory aids in premodern cultures were often 'not so much an aid to memorization as an auxiliary of mystification.' As Ericsson's work suggests, long and hard practice may be all that is needed. Steve Farmer From mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Sat May 20 22:32:49 2000 From: mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Shailendra Raj Mehta) Date: Sat, 20 May 00 23:32:49 +0100 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058645.23782.14599494663814343940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson write: "Many thanks to Steve Farmer for the interesting and informative post I agree that there does not seem to be anything comparable in Vedic with the 'memory palace' devices that you describe. I myself am unaware of anything as elaborate as these in India." That is not quite correct. Any civilization that has produced "taperecordings" unchanged over several thousand years, as Michael Witzel has suggested many times, must have had a very powerful mnemonic apparatus. I can testify to this. from personal knowledge. I apologize for resurrecting an old post of mine, but here is what I wrote five years ago. Date: 14 Sep 1995 20:00:46 -0500 Francois Quiviger wanted to know if there was a history of mnemonics for India. I suspect there ought to several mini-histories available by now, though most of it would be in the Indian languages. Two small bookleta which detail part of a Jain tradition are available in Hindi from Prakrit Bharati in Jaipur. They might have some references to other works. The first details several schemes for memorization which are rather old. The writer was a Shatavadhani sadhaka, who, as the name indicates had a hundred special skills including the ability to remember a list of several hundred (or thousand) items, listening to a passage in a foreign language and reciting it back verbatim, the ability to do long mulitiplication in the head using algebraic short cuts, and so on. In a public forum he could sit and listen to these one hundred challenges presented to him in sequence. This would take several hours. He could then provide the responses to these challenges, also in sequence over the next several hours. He indicates, incredible though it might seem, that there were Jain monks who were known to be Sahsravadhanis. If I remember correctly the author's name was Dhirajbhai Shah. He had written the original in Gujarati. I had reviewed the manuscript of the Hindi translation which was then published in Jaipur. I remember one particular difference between the Indian and Western techniques (as described in books such as those by Yates). It was the heavy emphasis that the Indian techniques placed on developing ekagrata. The other booklet was more historical in nature and was written by a Jain monk who was also a Shatavdhani. It too was published by Prakrit Bharati in Hindi but the title and the name of the author escapes me. I remember being disappointed when I first read it since, unlike Dhirajbhai Shah, he gave away few of his secrets. Shailendra Raj Mehta mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu In response, Allen Thrasher came up with the following: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Allen Thrasher To: Indology list Subject: Indian art of memory Message-ID: I think I have got a little more information on the book on the art of memory discussed by Shailendra Raj Mehta. A computer search of the Library of Congress database (LOCIS) turned up the following: Tripathi, Rudradeva. Bharatani eka virala vibhuti Sri Dhirajalalal Saha. Mumbai: Satavadhani Pandita Sri Dhirajalala Tokarasi Saha Amrtamahotsava Samiti, 1981. In Gujarati. LCCN 81-903830, LC call no. BL1373 .S48 T74 1981 (Orien Guj). See especially section Smaranakala (on a work of his by that title), p. 245-246 and chapter Satavadhanakala, p. 285-32. In the bib. of Shah's works, the title Smaranakala is listed and it is said that a Hindi trans. is forthcoming. There is no citation of a publisher of either the Gujarati or the Hindi ed. As far as I can make out it says that Ramanlal Vasantlal Desai (a prolific Gujarati author, according to LOCIS) was the translator, but I do locate any title that sounds like this from a search under his name. I will ask the Delhi office of LC to try to track down whether the book was published and will advertise the publication information on the net if it is. Satavadhana is apparently a genre of extemporaneous composition in Telugu poetry, and persons capable of it are called Satavadhani. See the following works: Rajamannaru, Karyampudi. Satavadhani Rajammannaru (1846-11916) jivita sahityalu. Haidarabad: Sudharma Pracuranalu, 1990. In Telugu. Biography of Karyampudi Rajamannaru. LCCN 91-909125, LC call no. PL4780 .9 .R2652 Z85 1990 (Orien Tel). Subbanna Satavadhani, Si. Vi. Satavadhana prabandhamu. Proddutturu: Sri Rayala Sahitya Parisattu, 1977- <1991 >. . Poems. In Telugu. LCCN 78-905799, PL4780 .9 .S746 S2 1977 (Orien Tel). Subbanna Satavadhani, Si. Vi. Avadhana vidya. Hairabadu: Telugu Visvavidyalaya, 1987. In Telugu. Study of extemporaneous poetic composition performances (Satavadhana) in Telugu. LCCN 88-903070. PL4779 .S83 1987 (Orien Tel). I found no hits under Sahasravadhana/i. Also: Nakaracan, Karu. Avatanakkalai. Cennai: Tamilp Patipppakam, 1982. On the art and practice of avadhana (attentiveness to develop miraculous memory); includes brief biographies of scholars endowed with great memory. In Tamil. LCCN 83-903152. BF385 .N25 1982 Orien Tam. Perhaps someone could get some of these works published in English, or visit the authors and persuade them to publish some tips. I have also found several titles in English from India that look as if they may have some information on the art of memory, but will page and examine them to see if they indeed do so before I post them. Allen W. Thrasher Senior Reference Librarian Southern Asia Section Library of Congress Washington, DC 20540-4774 tel. 202-707-5600 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov A public performance of a subset these skills was given in the Bay Area by a visiting ashtavadhani from Andhra Pradesh, several years ago. Performances like these are quite common in India. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 21 07:20:22 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 00:20:22 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058651.23782.2346747865668612968.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >I agree with this solution with some minor modifications. Can't disciple >lineages exist without hermitages? How about wandering ascetics? According >to Norman Brown, four manuscripts of saundaryalaharI manuscripts add the >epithet "paramahaMsaparivrAjaka" to zaGkarAcArya. (Is the use of this >epithet >restricted to bhASyakAra in other texts?) Certainly, disciple lineages can begin to exist without hermitages, but whether any such lineage continues for seven centuries without setting down roots at some spot or the other is a big question. parmahaMsaparivrAjaka is a common designation of the Advaitin monks, and even those who are associated with specific institutions are called this, because the ideal is that they should be parivrAjakas. >Also consider this. The cOzamAtEvi inscription of 1065 AD (mentioned by N. >Ganesan sometime ago) shows that the brahmin sabhA of the locality met in >the >temple and donated land for those lecturing on "piratIpikam" (pradIpika) >authored by one citAn2nta piTArar as a vArttika on sArIrakabhASya. ... >temples was already there in the 11th century. A 13th century Pandyan >inscription allowing for bhikSAbhoga for ekadaNDin ascetics (from lands >belonging to a caturvedimangalam named after a Hoysala king!) may show a >continuation of such an association. Yes, but notice that in neither of these records is a specific saMnyAsin named. One is about provisions for teaching a text written by someone who was probably a householder (you are right about piTArar, it is probably equivalent to bhaTTa or bhaTTAraka). The other record is simply about bhikshA, which ascetics certainly take. Theoretically speaking, the saMnyAsin is not an agent at all, and is beyond the ritual sphere of varNASrama dharma. Therefore, he cannot accept dakshiNA and dAna for himself. Accepting bhikshA is meant only for sustaining life for as long as the body lives. >Given that advaitin ascetics had a history of receiving donations, the fact >that the widow of the Hoysala king Ballala III donated land to >Bharatitirtha >during the Vijayotsava at Sringeri in 1346 becomes significant. Kulke says >that epigraphic evidence points to tremendous increase in land donations to >Sringeri after 1346. If the maTha had existed prior to 1346, there should >have been some grants issued to it by the Hoysala king Ballala III or his >predecessors as was done by his queen. The reason for the absence of such >epigraphic evidence is probably due to the absence of an institution at >Sringeri to receive such endowments. That there was a significant increase in donations through the 14th century is undoubted. But there are some Vijayanagara records confirming previous donations. As far as I know, these have not been shown to be forgeries. Kulke mistrusts the content of the records however, and thinks that the land and revenue mentioned in these records were simply made up. I don't see why this evidence should be completely set aside as untrustworthy. The second issue is Kulke's idea that a "previous non-existence" has been recast in the tradition as a "temporary absence." The only evidence for this is a record from around 1380, when Bharatitirtha passed away, and the king sent messengers to bring Vidyaranya back to Sringeri. This implies that Vidyaranya had been away somewhere else, so this is the temporary absence that Kulke reads as a previous non-existence. However, if Bharatitirtha had been on the spot, how does that indicate a previous non-existence of the Matha as such, immediately prior to the date of this record? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun May 21 13:39:15 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 06:39:15 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058660.23782.2994810033523574834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Certainly, disciple lineages can begin to exist without hermitages, but >whether any such lineage continues for seven centuries without setting down >roots at some spot or the other is a big question. I guess the assumption here is Sankara's date around 700 CE. The "standard" academic opinion is more like early 9th century. Kunjunni Raja (ALB, 1963) takes the 9th c. date assuming an earlier era for Vacaspati Misra. Subsequent researches collating scores of manuscripts by S. A. Srinivasan, ... pushes Vacaspati to late 10th century. See Dr. B. Kellner's posting in Indology referring to works by Slaje., The ency. of Indian philosophy volumes also mention late 10th century date for Vacaspati. Using the late 10th century date of Vacaspati, and K. Raja's article Sankara's date looks more like 10th century, is it not? Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Sun May 21 08:52:37 2000 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 08:52:37 +0000 Subject: Kabir's "Ocean Of Passion"!! Message-ID: <161227058653.23782.7328465232374048444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> May 21, 2000 Ramesh said : (On Kabir's Work For Hindu Temple Library). "As an Indian who was born Hindu, I had always wanted to find the UNITY behind the diverse spiritual traditions of Vedic thought. Neither Advaita nor Dvaita or any other isms could unify Vedic thought for me, until I stumbled upon my Teacher who introduced me to ANURAG-SAGAR." Avi Dey's Discussion : 1. I do not wish to slight you or your "teacher" , Kabir, but can you be more specific as to what is so unique or impressive about "unity" in Kabir's "Ocean of Passion" ? How is Kabir's Vision different or similar to that of Rabindra Nath Tagore's "Gitanjali" for example , a poetic accomplishment perhaps was influenced by Kabir's works (anyone care to comment on this hypothesis ?) 2. How does "Kabir's Vision " overcomes "dogmas" of the two religious cultures in which Kabir was brought up, ie, Hinduism and Muslim ? 3. In overcoming the "dogmas" , does this vision also "create" some dogmas of it's own ? Tagore's Vision of "unity". as given in "Gitanjali" and other places of his voluminous writings, he actually tried to put into practice in the form of a "community" , Shantiniketan. This "practical application" in my opinion, failed miserably in India (East) of that time . And specially subsequently the "vision" itself deteriorated in the culture it was produced, replaced by other new "dogmas" imported from the West (such as, for example, West trained political leaders of India of Tagore's time who favored West's "Socialism" and Karl Marx's "Communism" and other "modern" visions from the West and East such as "commercialism" and especially "mass thinking, mass society democracy" that polarized society in a destructive way, and in a way that "village democracy" as practiced in India through thousand of years, throughout all of the difficult foreign invasions never was such polarization in mass scale ever produced !). To my estimation, Tagore's dream still remains a "dream". No doubt however, the dream survives , in the minds and hearts of many of his students , individuals, even today awaiting an opportunity to germinate like a beautiful fragrant flower which Tagore loved so much ! This "reality" is what is so wonderful and brings hope for future I think ! 4. Is there any "evidence" that Kabir attempted to form a "community" to practice his "vision of unity" or was he primarily a "theorist", which was essentially what was Rabindra Nath Tagore ? "practical application" in the quest for "unity of humanity" still awaits for perhaps a " inspired students" of Tagore (or of Kabir ?) to achieve in future ! Tagore's trip to Europe in 1938, long after winning the Nobel Prize for Literature (1913) , and during his life time, in quest for sharing this vision of "unity" with the West also failed miserably, as people in Europe, in Germany particularly, there was another song of "national glory" that was just coming into tune, that of Adolf Hitler's. 4.A. I Seek comments on "Kabir's" Vision of Unity. Was Kabir's Vision only related to the people of the two cultures of which he was in fact a part, Hindus and Muslims, or did this vision include other cultures as well of that time and place ? I would guess that Christianity or other religions were not a factor in India at that time, although perhaps Buddhism and Jainism were still a factor in Historic India ? Any evidence that Kabir came into contact with other such religions such as Jainism and Buddhism ? 4. B. Seek comments on "practical application" of such a Kabir's Vision as given in "Ocean of Passion" ? Was any practical applications such as building a "community" ever attempted by Kabir or any of his students subsequently ? Avi Dey Coordinator Hindu Temple Library Northern Virginia,USA PS: As I send this to INDOLOGY, Samar Abbas's comments relating to Hindu's of India just came in response to Professor Bijoy Mishra's comments. It is interesting that he feels that He feels mainstream "Hindu" is not "tolerant" as an example who can or cannot enter a Hindu Temple in India. I would strongly disagree even if I live outside of India. It is politics of "mass thinking, mass method democracy" that has created whatever is modern Hindu intolerant society, and not the "gurdians" of Hinduism in India ! I am taking this discussion to a slightly different path, but in a multi-cultural society such as India it is realistic to expect that there is always a certain amount of conflict between the "guardians" (orthodox) and the "merchants" (the innovators) of any society ! This is natural, but it is always the "extremists" who create the brings in the most danger to any established society. Just look at what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD when that city and a civilization was totally destroyed along with the destruction of its main Temple ! [admin note: date changed from Sun, 21 May 1972 04:17:49 -0400] From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun May 21 12:52:38 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 08:52:38 -0400 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058655.23782.5689042239074756469.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 May 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > On Sat, 20 May 2000, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > To state Kabir is despised by Hindus would be a great distortion... > > None of the Kabir's work will raise eyebrows anywhere. > > I quote from the article cited earlier > (http://www.secularindia.com/sangh_parivar_sena_target_secular1.htm ) > > > It is the Hindu Brahmins of the Sangh, who represent all Hindus, and not > Western-educated software programmers. I would have argued my points some more, but am alarmed by your statement above. How many software programmers you know and how many are western educated? Argument and logic based on such generalization sound gross. I guess you have right to your views. They look distorted to me. Regards, BM From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Sun May 21 13:44:29 2000 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie Fellows) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 10:44:29 -0300 Subject: replacing email Message-ID: <161227058657.23782.3581848725583000323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> How should I proceed to replace my former e-mail address - ( jesualdo correia ) winnie.fellows at unikey.com.br to jesualdocorreia at bol.com.br ? in the Indological list ? Thanks J.C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun May 21 18:02:03 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 11:02:03 -0700 Subject: SV: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058664.23782.1384041840034301351.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > A few years ago a saw a TV program (I believe) dealing with a tribe of > hunters in Siberia. The Shaman of the tribe would every year during a > sequence of ceremonies that lasted a week or so recite an epic of some > 40,000 verses, presumably between 200.000 and 300.000 words. The program > did not specify exactly how this was done, but I would like to know: > > What are the longest texts known to have been memorized verbatim? > (Not retelling in the usual oral poetry way, but repeating word for word) I doubt that this was a word-for-word recitation, Lars Martin. The comparative evidence suggests that the Parry-Lord type of recitation (which at a minimum involves minor changes in each performance) was *normal* in premodern civilizations, unless a written standard existed to normalize the recitation, as in China. The (more-or-less) verbatim recitations that existed in Vedic traditions were fairly anomalous, so far as I can tell. For reasons explained in my previous post, it is my suspicion, based on neuropsychological studies by KA Ericsson and Thompson et al., that the unusual word-for-word recitations in premodern Vedic traditions had less to do with any special mnemonic techniques (pace Staal and others) than with strong strictures on incorrect performance, which led to unusually strong rehearsal techniques. I don't want to reopen this can of worms at present, but I also think that there is a lot of suggestive evidence that by the second half of the first millennium BCE, at a minimum -- I'm uncertain about earlier periods -- Vedic recitation was also being normalized in part by the existence of written texts, at least in commentary traditions. This is demonstrated, if no place else, by the large number of quotations from different Vedic branches in works generally dated from this period. (I don't think that my view is all that radical, really: in a long exchange in a private online forum a few months ago, Patrick Olivelle pretty clearly admitted to me that this was his view as well; I think that this is also your position in respect to commentary traditions after c. 400 BCE, correct Lars Martin?) Moreover, besides these cross-references, there are all those pesky references to early writing in Vedic texts that can't *all* be explained away by pointing to ambiguities in Sanskrit. Perhaps the best-known of these is the reference in Aitreya Aranyaka 5.3.3, which even Staal (see _Nambudiri Veda Recitation_, p. 15) accepts as referring to writing. As you know, the reference says -- here I'm giving Staal's translation -- that "A pupil should not recite and study the Veda "when he has eaten flesh, or seen blood, or a dead body, or done what is unlawful... or had intercourse, or written...". However you date that passage, it is clearly long before the last third of the first millennium BCE. But again, I'm not a Sanskritist but a comparative historian, and don't want to get dragged into this debate again -- especially since not all interested and informed parties to the debate are still members of this list! The last time I stumbled into this topic, I did so naively, not knowing how politicized the question was in your field. From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun May 21 06:53:34 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 11:53:34 +0500 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058649.23782.17043747315381248594.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 20 May 2000, Bijoy Misra wrote: > To state Kabir is despised by Hindus would be a great distortion... > None of the Kabir's work will raise eyebrows anywhere. I quote from the article cited earlier (http://www.secularindia.com/sangh_parivar_sena_target_secular1.htm ) " The banner which sparked the events carried one of Kabir's famous couplets which translates as, "a low-caste leather worker who has a guru is better than a high-caste Brahmin without one." This "triggered off a campaign against the Kabir panthis" and in the month that followed, "15 of their ashrams located all over the state were burnt and damaged by Shiv Sainiks and Sangh Parivar activists". " Here we find the Sangh Parivar, the organisation recognised as following the purest form of Orthodox Hinduism, burning not one but 15 Kabirpanthi ashrams when one of Kabir's verses were displayed on a banner. Here, not only does Kabir raise eye-brows, but his verses actually cause intense anger and hatred. I cannot predict the future, but I have warned those wishing to include Kabir's works in a `Hindu' library. The library appears to be in the West, and it is likely that Kabir's works will be included without any untoward incident. However, things in India are different. It is the Hindu Brahmins of the Sangh, who represent all Hindus, and not Western-educated software programmers. It is thus their judgement which determines who is a Hindu and who is not. > I come from Puri in India ... Even neo-Hindu Vaishnavas from ISCKON are not permitted to enter the Jagannath temple of Puri. Kabripanthis are also probably debarred from entering the Hindu temple, as were (till recently) all Dalits. Muslims of course cannot come anywhere near the place, even if they are Dilip Kumars. I make sure that the only temples I visit are nastik Shaiva, Shakta or Tantric ones. I have never violated any Orthodox Hindu law, no matter what my more liberal westernised elite friends try - some have even offered to smuggle me into some Vaishnava temples. As a result, Orthodox Brahmins have commended my behaviour, and condemned the treachery of the Western-educated elite Hindus who preach secularism. > Kabir was a part of core literature while we were in school in India. Kindly remember that the school curriculum in India is dominantly Pseudo-Secular; the importance of persons such as Kabir, who preached communal harmony is emphasised in school curricula, and their importance grossly exaggerated. Indeed, only 5 % of all Hindus accept the Sufi saints, proof indeed that the composite culture hypothesis is false. The books by Arun Shourie `Eminent Historians' and 'Myths of Composite Culture and Equality of Religions' by Harsh Narain (http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/bookstore/bookrev/moccaeor.html) expose the historical distortions practiced by the Pseudo-Secularists. > Kabir is a precursor to Nanak. God does not sit in > temples or mosques. God is in us and God is in a name. Noble thoughts, and may well be correct from the philosphical point of view. But this is only accepted by 5 % of traditional Hindus, and the 1-2 % educated Westernised Indian elite. Bijoy, kindly remember that your elitist views do not necessarily reflect the mainstream traditional Hindu view of the middle classes. Yours, Samar From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun May 21 11:10:47 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 13:10:47 +0200 Subject: SV: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058662.23782.13110486860756383761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 21. mai 2000 02:36: > I'd like to add a correction to Shailendra Raj Mehta's interesting > recent post: George Thompson clearly wasn't claiming that mnemonic > devices weren't used in Vedic traditions. All that he said was that he > knew of no elaborate mnemonics in India based on the construction of > complex visual associations, like those found in Western 'memory > palaces.' Thompson obviously is well acquainted with Vedic mnemonics, > which are based on modifications of sounds and rhythms in canonical > texts and not on associations (as in the West) between sounds and > visual images. Thanks for an interesting discussion so far! I have a couple of questions. A few years ago a saw a TV program (I believe) dealing with a tribe of hunters in Siberia. The Shaman of the tribe would every year during a sequence of ceremonies that lasted a week or so recite an epic of some 40,000 verses, presumably between 200.000 and 300.000 words. The program did not specify exactly how this was done, but I would like to know: What are the longest texts known to have been memorized verbatim? (Not retelling in the usual oral poetry way, but repeating word for word) Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun May 21 21:03:36 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 14:03:36 -0700 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar Message-ID: <161227058675.23782.2035124452602722532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Please consult Harry Falk's article "AA 5.3.3.: Nollikhya Naavalikhya" in > IIJ 35 (1992), 1-17. > The passage you mention can now be cancelled as evidence for early > writing. Which other 'pesky' places have you come across? > You've picked up on one point in my post and ignored the rest. I know from reading Falk's monograph on writing in India (I haven't read this article) that he goes to length to disqualify every reference to writing before, as I recall, the time of Ashoka. The inherent ambiguities in Sanskrit make it possible to call every such reference into question if you are intent on doing so, as Falk is. I'm a comparative historian, not a Sanskritist, so on this issue I can only balance Falk's claims against those of other specialists on the topic, like Staal. Obviously not all qualified experts agree with Falk's claims, as is evident when you read reviews of his monograph. I have had a lot of personal correspondence with mainstream Sanskritists in which Falk's extreme views on writing in India are also called into question. Leaving this issue aside, since I don't have the answers: It is much more difficult to call into question the evidence for early writing in Vedic sources that exists in extensive quotations from different Vedic branches in Vedic commentaries from the last half of the first millennium BCE. This was also noted in my post. Apparently quite a few mainstream Indologists are also troubled by this evidence, including Patrick Olivelle. Back on 8 April 2000, in another online forum (the CGC group run, by invitation, by E. Bruce Brooks), Olivelle wrote: About the question: would the citations of opposing views and texts from different vedic schools indicate that the authors were working from manuscripts rather than oral tradition? This is a very good point to which I do not have a good answer. On the face of it, I would agree with you. It appears difficult to imagine that all these were stored in the cranial hard drive of the authors. But when do our hard drives run out of memory? ... But you have raised an excellent point--and down deep I think I would agree with you. I'm not holding up the 'authority' of Olivelle against the 'authority' of Falk -- that's a method for scholastic thinkers -- but only indicating that the argument isn't as closed as you imply. Evidence from comparative history, I think, is also strongly in favor of early writing in India: Given the extensive knowledge of writing in every major civilization in Eurasia *besides* India by the mid first millennium (China, Persia, Greece, etc.) it is rather a stretch to believe that writing didn't have an impact on Vedic traditions in this period as well. This is especially true since the development of fully developed commentarial traditions emerged about the same time in all these civilizations as well. India didn't exist in a hermetic shell, by any means -- there is pretty good evidence of contact between these civilizations. Proof is tough, but that's true in every scientific discipline. All you can do when an historical issue is ambiguous is weigh the evidence on both sides and make a tentative judgment. The judgment that you make only has heuristic value, but that's the best we can do at this point. Knowledge of ambiguity is not ambiguous knowledge, and to claim certainty when none exists runs counter to any sound scientific method. In any event, this question was raked over rather fully a couple of months ago. The opposing positions are by now pretty well-known. Until new evidence appears on the scene, I don't want to waste time rehashing the same arguments -- especially when some of the most important adherents of non-mainsteam views are no longer on this list? (To everyone's loss, I think: as the Platonic corpus has it, truth is the offspring of dialectical thought.) My best, Steve Farmer From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sun May 21 20:53:42 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 14:53:42 -0600 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058673.23782.16679299625232385931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> About Samar's comments: There are shlokas stating something similar to "a low-caste leather worker who has a guru is better than a high-caste Brahmin without one." I don't think there are many Hindus who will not accept Raidas as a distinguished teacher. How many Hindus ask what caste are Sathya Sai Baba or Ammachi? Have they rejected Vivekanada, Maharshi Mahesh Yogi, Swami Chinmayananda because they were not born Brahmins? Incidentally poet Rasakhan was a Muslim. The famous song "man ta.Dapat hari darsan ko aaj" was written by Shakil Badayuni, this fact has never bothered Hindus. It is true that Brahmins have dominated Hinduism and they still do. Buddhist texts show that in time of Buddha, Brahmins received considerable respect. Some of the respect they get, is well earned. All Kabirpanthis that I have heard about are Hindu. I know of no Muslim Kabirpanthis. I have a copy of Kabir's Bijak. It would be considered blasphemy in Pakistan. It also criticizes many Hindu practices and believes. Such criticism is accepted in Hinduism. He was not a sufi. He never belonged to a Sufi order. Incidentally, Kabir was aware of the Jains and he has criticised them too. Kabir's precurser was a Jain monk named Ram-Sinha (and not the Buddhist maha-siddhas as is often believed). He does not appear to have been aware of Buddhism, as far as I can tell. Yashwant From rchawla at DELLNET.COM Mon May 22 00:14:34 2000 From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 17:14:34 -0700 Subject: A Hindu Temple Library Message-ID: <161227058677.23782.1427899532886049779.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Avi I would like to recommend books on yoga and meditation to become a part of your library. A book titled : Complete Yoga Book by James Hewitt is one of the good ones I have read on the subject. Good luck with your selection. If you need my personal views on other books and at the same time not to bother all members of Indology, please send me a message at rchawla at dellnet.com. Regards, RChawla ----- Original Message ----- From: Tein Network To: Sent: Saturday, May 13, 1972 11:46 AM Subject: A Hindu Temple Library > May 13, 2000 > > RE: Our Hindu "Self Knowledge" Library ATT: Indology Scholars & Friends > > I have been given the task of coming up with a recommended list of books > and respective description for initiating a lending library for our Hindu > Avi Dey > Coordinator, From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sun May 21 18:40:21 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 19:40:21 +0100 Subject: SV: Mnemonics in Ancient India In-Reply-To: <01BFC33D.6C22BAE0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227058671.23782.3578415840482206664.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, >What are the longest texts known to have been memorized verbatim? >(Not retelling in the usual oral poetry way, but repeating word for word) There are a very small number of monks in Burma today who are recognized as having memorized the whole Pali Canon. That's more than 26M on my hard disk ! But I have no idea how accurate they are or how much they made use of the written texts in learning. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Sun May 21 18:09:13 2000 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 20:09:13 +0200 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke In-Reply-To: <27.58764d5.264f93b2@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227058667.23782.16088787669705375006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 1. The stories of the Sangama brothers' Telugu origin and conversion to Islam > etc. are not supported by epigraphic evidence. Nor there is any inscriptional evidence about their Kannada/Tamil/.... origin! For that matter, is there any textual edidence? > I would very much like to know if there have been any scholarly arguments > challenging Kulke's findings? For a different view on Kulke's above conclusions, arguing that it is _not_ a narrative of _religious conversion_ (orig. in italics), see: "Sultan among Hindu kings" - Dress, Titles, and the Islamicization of Hindu culture at Vijayanagara", Phillip Wagoner, JAS, 55.4 (Nov 1996), pp. 851-880 esp. pp. 873-874 I understand that Wagoner has a more detailed paper on the "conversion" controversy in press. "Harihara, Bukka, and the Sultan: The Delhi Sultanate in the political imagination of Vijayanagara" by Phil Wagoner, forthcoming in: _Beyond Turk and Hindu: Rethinking religious identities in Islamicate South Asia_, ed. by David Gilmartin and Bruce B. Lawrence, U of Florida Press, Gainesville. Regards, Sreenivas From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun May 21 18:37:58 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 20:37:58 +0200 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar Message-ID: <161227058669.23782.10330757053286494438.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On these lines: > there are all those pesky references to early > writing in Vedic texts that can't *all* be explained away by pointing > to ambiguities in Sanskrit. Perhaps the best-known of these is the > reference in Aitreya Aranyaka 5.3.3, which even Staal (see _Nambudiri > Veda Recitation_, p. 15) accepts as referring to writing. As you know, > the reference says -- here I'm giving Staal's translation -- that "A > pupil should not recite and study the Veda "when he has eaten flesh, > or seen blood, or a dead body, or done what is unlawful... or had > intercourse, or written...". However you date that passage, it is > clearly long before the last third of the first millennium BCE. Please consult Harry Falk's article "AA 5.3.3.: Nollikhya Naavalikhya" in IIJ 35 (1992), 1-17. The passage you mention can now be cancelled as evidence for early writing. Which other 'pesky' places have you come across? -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 22 06:16:05 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 23:16:05 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058681.23782.3231862716064006471.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: >I guess the assumption here is Sankara's date around 700 CE. >The "standard" academic opinion is more like early 9th century. Well, if you look at it that way, there is no "standard" opinion. KK Raja defends the late 8th or early 9th century date. Hacker, Mayeda, Nakamura and others argue for a date closer to 700 CE. >The ency. of Indian philosophy volumes also >mention late 10th century date for Vacaspati. Using the late >10th century date of Vacaspati, and K. Raja's article >Sankara's date looks more like 10th century, is it not? Well, even if Vacaspati's date is in the 10th century, that does not automatically bring Sankara's date down too. Perhaps there is a bigger gap between Sankara's times and Vacaspati's times, so there may be no need to assume any date later than say, 850 CE. Which is still five centuries before the establishment of Vijayanagara. Plenty of time for disciple lineages to set down roots here and there. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun May 21 22:31:44 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 21 May 00 23:31:44 +0100 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058679.23782.11021087228237837629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 May 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > Bijoy, kindly remember that your elitist views do not necessarily > reflect the mainstream traditional Hindu view of the middle classes. This is very close to being an insult. I'll let this one past, but please be more careful in future. I don't know whether you really meant to be rude here or not, but bear in mind that email is a tricky medium where emotional tone is concerned, and you need to be extra, extra polite to make sure that nobody gets hurt, even unintentionally. Thank you. --- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From saradesh at GATEWAY.NET Mon May 22 07:38:35 2000 From: saradesh at GATEWAY.NET (saradesh) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 00:38:35 -0700 Subject: Kabir Book by Tagore Message-ID: <161227058683.23782.102176299930940740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: Avi Dey in reference to the Hindu Temple Library SONGS OF KABIR by Rabindranath Tagore is not out of print. It is published in the U.S. by Weiser, ISBN 0877286957 in a paperback edition for $8.95. If you have trouble obtaining it, it is available through Vedanta Catalog, at Vedanta.com, a source you might like to check out for supplying other works for your library. Good luck with your project. Saradeshaprana From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 22 08:22:24 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 01:22:24 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058687.23782.17447413080360892183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Robert Zydenbos wrote: >>But Basava did not go further and claim that this was an institution that >>had existed for many centuries before him. Also, note that in the earliest >>Vijayanagara inscriptions, Vidyasankara does not seem to be a living >>person at all. He is already a "devaru," for whom a temple is being built >>and worship is being instituted. > >I do not think that his being referred to as "devaru" necessarily >means >that he was no longer among the living. Allama / Allamaprabhu >was also >referred to as "Prabhudevaru" very early, if I remember >correctly. Yes, I've considered that, but is a temple built for a living person? Usually, people wait till an ascetic passes away before building monuments in his name. The Vidyasankara temple is basically a grand structure for what would usually be an unostentatious shrine over the burial place of an ascetic. It is not a temple for the God Siva. Also, the inscription mentioning Vidyasankara (cited by Rigopoulos) is dated to 1235 CE. This is still 110 years before the year 1346. All the more reason to think that "devaru" in the 14th century inscription refers to someone in the past, if only a very recent past. >We also need to look at what that "legitimation" signifies. Is it a > >legitimation of Vijayanagara as just another big empire, or as a >bulwark >of pre-Mughal traditions and values that also wants to push >back the >influence of Delhi? I think only the second possibility >would favour the >Sankarite imagery. The other prominent religious >traditions, like the >Maadhva and Virasaiva (also politically >influential in Vijayanagara) would >at the time have been less useful >in appealing to northern India, where, >on the other hand, the >Sankarite tradition had already spread. Who should we hold responsible for this appropriation of the Sankarite imagery? Is it that Vidyaranya claims a Sankarite legacy for a matha that had "really nothing to do with Sankara" (Kulke's words) or is it that the Vijayanagara rulers associated themselves with Vidyaranya's well-known Sankarite legacy, in order to appeal to northern India? And who were they appealing to? >To give a possible latter-day parallel: the USSR and USA were allies >until >the end of World War II, when other concerns became more >prominent. The >idea of the "four mathas founded by Sankara" might >have been part of an >attempt at creating a geopolitical solidarity >which failed or was too weak >or shortlived to be politically >effective at the time but was maintained >in religious circles. The Vedanta tradition, and Advaita in particular, has a great penchant for the number four. If the brahmasUtras have 4 adhyAyas, with 4 padas each, often only the commentaries on the first 4 sUtras are studied, under the name catuH-sUtrI. And corresponding to the 4 Vedas, they talk of the mahAvAkya-catushTaya. These are found in some texts that have come to be called Upanishads (Sukarahasya, AmnAya etc), so now one has to talk of dating these texts. Vasudevasrama, an author of a saMnyAsa manual, extends this imagery, by listing four sets of mahAvAkya-catushTayas. Sankara is said to have had 4 disciples. Excluding the Hastamalakiya Slokas, we have proper Advaita texts by three of these disciples. I don't think we need to wait till the political compulsions of the 14th century for the birth of a politically motivated tradition of 4 mathas established by Sankara, that became religiously significant afterwards. It rather seems like a political spin has been put upon a tradition that was primarily limited to Advaita ascetic circles. And it seems to me that interpreting this tradition in a geopolitical manner is more a 19th century development than a 14th century one. How much power and significance would a vision of a politically united India have had in the Vijayanagara period? Was there even such a political vision at the time? >I get the impression that at least part of this discussion hinges on >the >question when something is / becomes a "matha". As Sudalaimuthu > >Palaniappan also asked: must lineages have mathas? ..... >Similarly, the rulers of Vijayanagara could have lent their support > >towards establishing a Sankarite matha at Sringeri, on the basis of >an >earlier, more humble settlement. A more fundamental question - what is a matha? Is a humble settlement any less a matha than a grand institution with big temples and buildings? Circumstances may have transformed a humble settlement into a big institution, but does that indicate the prAg-abhAva of the humble institution? Even today, the temples may be big, and public audiences may take place in palatial buildings, but the living quarters of the saMnyAsins are small huts in the interior of the forest. And take the issue of a matha "becoming extinct" and being "revived". The related problems revolve totally around the disciple lineage and its continuation. That is how three different people can claim the Sankaracharya title in Badrinath today, while spending most of their time in Allahabad or Jabalpur or Hardwar, instead of Badrinath. And that is how a matha based in Mulabagal in Karnataka could claim the Dwaraka lineage earlier this century. The primary issue is one of authenticity of the lineage. How this authenticity is determined is the crucial issue. The actual location of the matha and its properties becomes quite secondary. >it looks as if a not entirely warranted jump is made from "probable > >reference" to "therefore... titular Sankaracharyas". Is every > >Sankaracharya a titular head of a matha? (Cf. all the Nagarjunas >among >the Buddhists.) Well, if we rule out the possibility of someone being called a Sankaracharya merely by virtue of his position, there has to be some other explanation. Perhaps some significant person was considered a second/third/fourth Sankara or maybe a reincarnation of Sankara, for whatever reason(s), thereby becoming a honorific Sankaracharya. Given the number of such texts, wouldn't that only make it more likely that there would be a much greater number of divergent traditions and institutions that claim a Sankaran legacy than what we seem to have unambiguous evidence for? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Mon May 22 15:53:32 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 09:53:32 -0600 Subject: Lineages (RE: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke) In-Reply-To: <20000521133915.54447.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058689.23782.3678294955847695727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Zydenbos wrote: >To give two other parallels ....: the Jaina presence at >Shravanabelagola is ancient, tradition placing its beginning >in the 3rd cent. BC, but it seems that it was only in the >10th century that a matha was established with support from >the Ganga dynasty. That is correct. While Shravanabelagola as a Jain center is older, the current seat (of MulaSangh-DeshiyaGaNa-PustakaGachchha) was established later. Amoghavarsha (815-880) of Rashtrakuta clan had a general Vira-Bankeya-Rasa. He had settled a city Bankapur. Bankapur became the host for a Jain institute. Mahapurana of Gunabhadra was released here in 898. The last Rashtrakuta king retired to Shravanabelgola in 973. In 982, a year after the consecretation of Gommateshvar, he died in sallekhana. Around this time, the school at Bankapur shifted to Shravanabelgola. Incidentally it should be noted that the Jain Matha at Humacha, about 30 miles north of Sringeri, is older. It belongs to the MulaSangh-NandiSangh-BalatkaraGana-SaraswatiGachchha (MNBS) order. The MNBS has been the most widespread order in India, which had seats at some time or another at Surat (Guj.), Idar (Guj.), Ajmer (Raj.), Jaipur (Raj.), Chittor (Raj.), Nagaur(Raj.), Delhi, Gwalior (MP), Chanderi(MP), Sironj(MP) and many other places. There are perhaps hundreds of thousands of Tirthankara idols from Surat to Decca (Bangladesh) mentioning the MNBS order, having been mostly installed by the Bhatttaraks of this order in the past 7-8 centuries. Many of these Bhattarakas were prolific authors. In the early part of this century the existing Bhattaraka seats in North India became vacant. Bhattaraka Devendrakirti of Humcha heads the original home of the order. I think he is the only surviving Bhattaraka of the MNBS order. It is believed that the Bhattaraka seat at Humcha was founded in 8th cent. during the reign of JinadattaRai. The Mahamandaleshvar Chandarayaras in 1048 AD had made a donation to a Bhattaraka of BalagaraGana at Balligame near Banavasi. Since a Bhattaraka is a semi-ascetics, he is not restricted by the ordinary rules for Jain ascetics. The present Bhattaraka has presided over installation ceremonies from California to Australia. Yashwant Ordinarily Jain ascetics are prohibited from staying in a place longer than a few days, except during the rainy season. From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Mon May 22 08:00:49 2000 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 10:00:49 +0200 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058685.23782.10208045465576771302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, I have been seeing the discussion going on this subject of Shringeri and Vidyaranya problems and the article by Dr. Kulke published in 1985 or so. This article was published a decade and a half ago. Since then much has been done and I did not see the mention of any referrence to these recent publications in this discussion. In 1986 a seminar was held in Bangalore on the topic of Early Vijayanagara studies and the papers were published in 1988. Some valuable articles have appeared in this volume amongst which "Identity of Madhava Vidyaranya by K. Krishnamurthy annd Vidyaranya's Association with the Vijayanagara Empire by Venimadhava Shastri". In these articles both the authors have proved the identity of Madhava &Vidyaranya with scholarly arguments and references. Now coming to the most recent work, it is the National Book Trust Publication in 1999 on "Vijayanagar." Of course, though the core of the book is on the "chronicles on the city of Vijayanagar" I was asked by the Director of the NBT to intoduce the history of this empire in details. I took this opportunity to go in details on this subject of so called Vijayanagara and its association with Vidyaranya. My research work have led me to arrive at the conclusion that there was no empire as such called "Vijayanagar". When there is no empire then its foundation and its association with Vidyaranya do not appear at all. According to my work the empire was called "Karnatak" extending from Krishna to Capecomorin NS and the two oceaans EW. Hoysala Ballala III visited the northern frontiers of his realm in 1337 is a historical fact. Probably afterr this tour he must have held a meeting and convinced the Hindus to have one empire to face all alien invasions. Only after the death of Ballala III and his son Ballala IV inscriptions begin to refer to the rule of Harihara I and Bukka I. Nowhere in the inscriptions the empire is referred to as Vijayanagara but on the contrary the empire is called Karnataka with its capital Vijayanagar. The earliest epigraphical reference to the city is dated 1357. But the usage of the name becomes frequent from 1368 onwards and its earlier name Hosapattana was forgotten gradually. In the making of modern Karnataka empire brothers Sayana and Madhava played a vital role under the guidance of their Guru Vidyatirthamuni who was then on the pontifical seat of Sharadapitha at Shringeri. All the relatives and the vassals of defunct Hoysala kings gave their full support to the new rulers in their efforts of consolidation of one empire. Madhava occupied the seat of the minister and the adviser to Harihara I is proved from his "Puranasaara" which is being published by the ORI in Mysore. We all know that it is Madhava's work. Later in Vidyaranya's works we find references to Puranasara and Parasara Madhaviya which is also Madhavacharya's work. Madhava became Vidyaranya can be proved from the works of Sayana, Madhava and Vidyaranya. In Taittariyopanishad Sayana mentions in colophons "MadhavaVidyaranyasambandhivedarthaprakashe......." where as in his earlier works it is only Madhaviye vedarthaprakashe.... Vidyaranya's name begins to occur in inscriptions from 1375 onwards and not earlier. Only a "kadita" in Shringeri matha mentions the fact the Bukka requested the Guru to send a letter to Vidyaranya to return from Kashi but it is not substantiated by the inscriptions. Next problem is whether the first two rulers of this new empire were of Telugu origin or converts etc. These are problems of no significance. Whether they were Telugu or Kannada what does it matter. Only what is their contribution to the history of India is more important. Their conversion to Islam is a baseless story. Now I would like to draw the attention of the readers on the following points. The empire was never called Vijayanagar. It was called Karnataka empire englobing the whole of south India including Tamilnadu, Andhra and a few parts of Kerala. Of course, Goa was also a part of Karnataka empire. The capital was called Vijayanagar. Madhava played an important role in the beginnings of this empire. Sayana of course worked as his right hand man. Later when Madhava became Vidyaranya and a century later all the legends cropped up to confuse the historians. It is true Shringeri matha was established in Virupaksha temple at Hampi but not in the times of Vidyaranya. Later, in the times of Acyutaraya or Sadashivaraya i.e. after 1530. To verfy this read Lakkannadandesha's Shivatattvacintamani and Virupakshavasantotsavacampu. These are works belonginging to 1430 or so and 1530 or so. Latter work cannot be dated earlier than 1530. Following the battle of Talikota in 1565 the empire which received a death blow was not the so called empire of Vijayanagar but the "Karnataka Empire". After this period the name of Karnatak was restricted to some coastal regions. In the 19th century it was divided into many pieces administered by various governments. As the name of Karnataka disappeared from the maps only the name of Vijayanagar lingered in the memories of foreign visitors of 18th and 19th centuries. This misled Sewell to bring out a book "Forgotten Empire" and thus Vijayanagar empire a misnomer is haunting the scholars and the historians. In fact the name of the capital was Vijayanagar which is identical with modern village of Hampi. The ruins extend over thirty square kilometres and due to its outstanding characterstics the whole site along with Anegondi, Pampasaras and the Madhva saints' Samadhis was written on the World Heritage list in 1986. Now some people are involved in constructing bridges over the river for the sake of "foreign tourists" and the villagers. This has led UNESCO to transfer the name of Hampi from World Heritage list to the list of "Sites in danger". Now if no measures are taken for the conservation of Hampi there is a danger of deleting its name from the list for ever. If this happens, hopefully not, once again Karnataka will receive a blow. Vasundhara FILLIOZAT From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon May 22 23:07:58 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 16:07:58 -0700 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test Message-ID: <161227058706.23782.13711487489947246553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shailendra Raj Mehta writes: > Moreover, while several individuals might have phenomenal memories, and > even normal memories might be cultivated to astonishing degrees, yet, I > would like to conjecture that, faithful institutional transmittal requires > the creation of formal "memory palaces" and the like. This is the main point in dispute. I've nearly exhausted my knowledge of mnemonics, and I'm sure that everyone is sick of the thread -- I expect Dominik to pull the plug any minute. So after this post, I don't anticipate having anything further to add to the discussion. (I will toss in one new question at the end for others to ponder, however -- involving Vedic reciters and the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test -- that has some potentially deep historical implications.) Speaking to your conjecture: In China, as suggested earlier, formal mnemonics were unknown until Matteo Ricci introduced them at the end of the 16th century. As Ricci admitted to his superiors in Rome, his attempts to sell those methods to the Chinese was rather a flop. Despite the lack of formal mnemonics in China, however, stories of phenomenal textual memories were just as common there as in premodern India and the West. Indeed, all scholars entering the state bureaucracy were expected to know a good cross-section of the Confucian classics by heart. This evidence appears to argue against your hypothesis. Even in the West, rote memorization seemed to be far more important than the use of "memory palaces" insofar as memorizing textual canons was concerned. The main use of memory palaces, going back to Greco-Roman times, was for memorization of speeches and sermons, which could vary verbally from performance to performance. Great verbatim memories for individual texts were common, nonetheless. Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463-94), for example, was just one of *many* figures of his period who according to contemporaries could recite poems backwards and forwards after a single hearing. (This is also said of countless Chinese reciters.) So far as I can tell, after many years of study, Pico's ability arose through much practice in rote memorization, without recourse to formal memory aids. Many of Pico's near contemporaries (including Erasmus) disparaged "memory palaces" as superfluous and too complex to be of practical use -- exactly the complaint made by Chinese literati studying Ricci's methods. This provides further evidence against the need for such methods in textual transmission. In premodern universities in Europe, individual works from the Aristotelian corpus, and sometimes the whole corpus, were regularly memorized by students -- again without the use of formal memory training. (To appreciate how difficult a task this was, read through the _Physics_ or _Metaphysics_ sometime -- these are obscure and highly stratified texts and hardly memorable verse.) Professors in the university would recite the text word-for-word in class, contradictions and all, and then comment on it; if the students could afford paper, they would write out the text word-for-word and use that as a memory aid. If they couldn't afford the paper -- and many couldn't -- they simply memorized it as the teacher crawled along (often for months) through the text. After endless commentarial discussion, formal debates on "disputed points" would begin from memory -- a practice as common in Vedantan or Buddhist scholasticism as in Latin or Arabic traditions -- that would further help drive the text deep into memory. Again, no formal mnemonics were used -- only lots of rote repetition. A single Aristotelian text would typically be the subject of many months of classwork. Many scholastics claimed to know the whole of the Aristotelian corpus -- several thousand pages of small type in modern editions -- by heart. KA Ericsson's seminal studies showed that memories *become* extraordinary simply through long practice: you don't need to use formal memory techniques. In the case of "institutional transmittal" (to use your words) -- e.g., of the Vedas -- one might argue that *after* you thoroughly memorize the basic text it becomes relatively easy to produce the modifications of the text that are conventionally claimed as mnemonic tools -- Padapatha, Kramapatha, etc. My suggestion is that the supposed mnemonic cart may come *after* the rote-memorization horse -- not the reverse (pace Staal et al.). Returning to "memory palaces": their real function in the West may not have been to create loci (places) to associate with snippets of text but simply to prime neural networks for *later* feats of memory. Random memorization of long chains of just about *anything*, including thousands of rooms and objects to which you attach verbal labels, might do the job. Before dropping out of this thread myself, I'd like to raise a question that takes the discussion in a very different direction. It involves a matter that has troubled me for the last decade. Scholars normally focus on the *positive* aspects of memorizing canonical texts -- on faithful oral transmittal, etc. But an equally important, but ignored, question concerns the *negative* neuropsychological and cultural consequences in premodern societies of intense memorization of texts. A number of studies of famous memonists suggest that the construction of extraordinary memories comes at a cost: loss of creativity. Many memorists (like Luria's famous subject Sherishevskii) apparently perform subnormally when it comes to generalizing knowledge, with their deficits arising directly from their continuous rehearsal of concrete data. Luria, for example, notes that Sherishevskii had difficulty escaping his concrete memories, "making it impossible for him to cross that 'accursed' threshold to a higher level of thought" (1968: 133). Thompson et al. note something similar about Rajan Srinivasan Mahadevan, who on exams tended to paraphrase lecturer's words (like thousands of undergraduates I've taught!) and had great difficulty creating anything new. The implication is that Rajan was drowning in his concrete memories. Shifting to the historical level, I've always wondered if the typical overreliance of scholastic writers on "authority" in general wasn't *directly* related to the amount of time they spent memorizing texts. Recent studies of neural conditioning (e.g., Michael Merzenich's famous experiments involving neural plasticity) would seem to confirm this view. It is not often that historians can test ideas in the laboratory, but this may be an exception. Is there anyone on this List who has access to virtuoso Vedic reciters (I don't) and is capable of administering to them standard neuropsychological batteries, including above all the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test? (The Wisconsin Card Sorting Test is a standard measure of flexibility in thinking; poor performance on it indicates problems in frontal-lobe functioning.) To end my part in this thread with a testable prediction: I would predict that anyone capable of reciting any one of the four Vedas (or any similar canon) verbatim would do subnormally on tests like these. Verification of this prediction would have important historical implications, to say the least, given the fact that the majority of premodern intellectuals spent an inordinate amount of time memorizing texts. (If anyone gets a paper out of this into _Science_ or _Nature_ on this, please sneak me in as 10th author.) My best, Steve Farmer From palashm at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 22 15:53:47 2000 From: palashm at HOTMAIL.COM (Palash Jyoti Mazumdar) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 16:53:47 +0100 Subject: Harappan relics in Assamese society Message-ID: <161227058691.23782.232326256608316528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Searching through the site harappa.com, i accessed an image of an artifact titled 'dish on stand' which is an identical if cruder version of a stand we use at present in Assamese society called 'bota'. (www.harappa.com/indus2/163.html) The bota is always cast in bronze and is used to show respect while offering guests anything, specially used to offer betel nuts and leaf. What I would like to know is whether there is any Harappan seal which depicts this 'bota' along with script fragments which might represent the image. If there is, prhaps the script could be studied to find out how it may represent the word. Since the word is for an object, it should not have undergone change, nor should it carry any controversy of language, etc. From masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM Mon May 22 21:23:38 2000 From: masalewala at HOTMAIL.COM (Rustam Masalewala) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 17:23:38 -0400 Subject: Akbar (Re: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library?) Message-ID: <161227058696.23782.2370465713390681091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Samar wrote: >>2. What was the essence of Kabir's message ? Did >>Emperor Akbar take his >>ideas for combining religions he found in India into one from Kabir ? >>Is there any evidence that Akbar was influenced by >>Kabir ? > >Both followed Sufism. Akbar had secretly converted to Zoroastrianism. He was familiar with the Shahenama, the story of ancient Iran. He was so influenced with Dasturji Meherji Rana, he requested Dastujee to initate him. Dasturji, knowing that his ancestors belonged to the faith, agreed. Knowing that the ancient religion is not suitable for the masses in modern times, Akbar created a din based on Zoroastrianism. Incidentally Sufis origianted as a result of Zoroastrian influence. Rustam ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Mon May 22 21:53:23 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 17:53:23 -0400 Subject: A question on ArAyirappaTi guruparamparAprabhAvam Message-ID: <161227058699.23782.6422167490767069898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, I need the text of the passage in ArAyirappaTi guruparamparAprabhAvam, dealing with parAzarabhaTTar worshipping in tirunArAyaNapuram and going on to the home of mAdhavadAsar (later naJjIyar). I would appreciate if anybody could provide this either on the list or off the list. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue May 23 02:58:52 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 19:58:52 -0700 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test Message-ID: <161227058711.23782.2841153758845094680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge writes (re the mental deficits possibly found in virtuoso reciters): > Was this not also one of the earlier criticisms on the "memory place" > technique even by Ricci's day ? It often led to the acquisition of > many facts without true understanding. Now that you jolt my memory -- making me temporarily forget my plans to quit this thread -- it was. It's interesting that great reciters in premodern societies were *often* portrayed as fools lost in their facts and 'authorities.' In the Platonic dialogue entitled the _Ion_, the reciter of the same name is portrayed as a fool who knows his Homer verbatim but is incapable of independent thought. In the 16th century, Rabelais (cited in Spence, p. 12) satirized a character who knew his authorities 'backwards by heart,' but was so lost in his facts that if you wanted anything intelligent of him 'it was no more possible to draw a word from him than a fart from a dead donkey.' In respect to Indian reciters, a well-known Sanskritist sent me this note a few minutes ago: > I read with interest your comments that rote memorization has deleterious > effect on...memorizers. You will be pleasantly surprised to > know that in several Sanskrit plays, the Vedic recitor is the 'stupid fool' > who is ridiculed for his lack of intelligence. Can deficits in their abilities to generalize be confirmed by testing modern Vedic reciters with the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test -- finding frontal-lobe deficits of the same sort found by modern researchers in other modern memorists? Any such finding would certainly place the 'great traditions' of the human past, guarded by these walking taperecorders, in a curious light. From mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU Mon May 22 19:21:14 2000 From: mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Shailendra Raj Mehta) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 20:21:14 +0100 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058694.23782.14478321078243725967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thank Steve Farmer for an excellent set of references on memory. I had, of course read Luria's classic, but the recent literature seems to interesting in that it overturns William James's conjecture that basic memory cannot be improved with training. Farmer also writes: "I'd like to add a correction to Shailendra Raj Mehta's interesting recent post: George Thompson clearly wasn't claiming that mnemonic devices weren't used in Vedic traditions. All that he said was that he knew of no elaborate mnemonics in India based on the construction of complex visual associations, like those found in Western 'memory palaces.' Thompson obviously is well acquainted with Vedic mnemonics, which are based on modifications of sounds and rhythms in canonical texts and not on associations (as in the West) between sounds and visual images." Here I disagree again. The books from Prakrit Bharati that I cited, explicity develop memory palace type systems, running into hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of entries. You will find that the Devanagari alphabet lends itself rather well to the development of such systems, while the Roman alphabet is not quite as natural the same purpose. The real question is, how old are they? Again, given how naturally they come to Brahmi based alphabets, as opposed to Roman ones, I would be very surprised if the Indian systems postdated their Western counterparts. Moreover, while several individuals might have phenomenal memories, and even normal memories might be cultivated to astonishing degreess, yet, I would like to conjecture that, faitful institutional transmittal requires the creation of formal "memory palaces" and the like. One simply cannot gurantee that individuals such as Rajan Srinivasan Mahadevan would arise generation after generation in any lineage. Shailendra Raj Mehta mehta at mgmt.purdue.edu From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue May 23 04:58:39 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 21:58:39 -0700 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test In-Reply-To: <3929BDC6.A978FEF4@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227058712.23782.13820442760052872544.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been following this thread and Steve Farmer's interesting and informative posts, and I have a question for Steve. You quoted P. Olivelle in supporty of the possibility that: "the citations of opposing views and texts from different vedic schools indicate that the authors were working from manuscripts rather than oral tradition..." But your following description seems to confirm just the opposite: that texts along with commentary can be memorized and discussed without a written text. I understand that the teacher had a written text, but the process you describe seems to have worked mainly using memory. On the other hand, mention of differing interpretations (by Vedic reciters) may only have required the added work of learning the differing portions, as the rest would be the same. These could have been heard from a reciter from another school. I'm not trying to prove anything, but it seems that memorizing opposing views doesn't necessarily imply that the presence of a written text is more likely. >In premodern universities in Europe, individual works from the >Aristotelian corpus, and sometimes the whole corpus, were regularly >memorized by students -- again without the use of formal memory >training... Professors in the >university would recite the text word-for-word in class, >contradictions and all, and then comment on it; if the students could >afford paper, they would write out the text word-for-word and use that >as a memory aid. If they couldn't afford the paper -- and many >couldn't -- they simply memorized it as the teacher crawled along >(often for months) through the text... A single Aristotelian text would typically be >the subject of many months of classwork. Many scholastics claimed to >know the whole of the Aristotelian corpus -- several thousand pages of >small type in modern editions -- by heart. >Shifting to the historical level, I've always wondered if the typical >overreliance of scholastic writers on "authority" in general wasn't >*directly* related to the amount of time they spent memorizing texts. Very interesting idea. It could also be the other way around: they spent so much time memorizing texts because there was an "overreliance" on authority. Serious dissent was not tolerated for religious texts, and even for other literature, who dared question Aristotle? But more along your line of thought: maybe they spent so much time memorizing texts because written texts, although they did exist, were nor so widely available, or/and because if they wanted to find a particular quote it was easier to go over the text/chaper in their heads. Things are different when you have concordances and indexes at the back of books (or when you can do a word search in a word processor). Best wishes, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon May 22 20:46:23 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 22:46:23 +0200 Subject: SV: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058701.23782.1699649400111316600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shailendra Raj Mehta [SMTP:mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU] skrev 22. mai 2000 21:21: > Moreover, while several individuals might have phenomenal memories, and > even normal memories might be cultivated to astonishing degreess, yet, I > would like to conjecture that, faitful institutional transmittal requires > the creation of formal "memory palaces" and the like. One simply cannot > gurantee that individuals such as Rajan Srinivasan Mahadevan would arise > generation after generation in any lineage. I think this is an important and interesting point. We have to remember that Vedic material (and for that matter other kinds of material) was transmitted within families or lineages, and that we cannot expect all members of a family to be equally gifted (experience tells to expect the opposite). It is therefore naturally to assume that a lot would depend on technique, and that such techniques would be accessible to the more mediocre intelligences as well as to extremely gifted people. If memory can be trained, it cannot be trained equally well by everybody. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From tawady at YAHOO.COM Mon May 22 22:49:47 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Mon, 22 May 00 23:49:47 +0100 Subject: Harappan relics in Assamese society Message-ID: <161227058704.23782.6441327352525029543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 May 2000 16:53:47 +0100, Palash Jyoti Mazumdar wrote: >Searching through the site harappa.com, i accessed an image of an artifact >titled 'dish on stand' which is an identical if cruder version of a stand >we use at present in Assamese society called 'bota'. >(www.harappa.com/indus2/163.html) > >The bota is always cast in bronze and is used to show respect while >offering guests anything, specially used to offer betel nuts and leaf. > >What I would like to know is whether there is any Harappan seal which >depicts this 'bota' along with script fragments which might represent the >image. If there is, prhaps the script could be studied to find out how it >may represent the word. Since the word is for an object, it should not have >undergone change, nor should it carry any controversy of language, etc. Similar utensils were also used not too long ago among the various communities in Sri Lanka to make offerings of Betel Nut and leaf. regards, Raveen From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue May 23 05:21:18 2000 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 01:21:18 -0400 Subject: rope and snake In-Reply-To: <200005230455.VAA04520@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <161227058714.23782.16804392038733548183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone tell me where in Shankara's Vedantasutra comm. is the discussion of the rope ~ snake is found? thanks CL From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue May 23 01:10:30 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 02:10:30 +0100 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test Message-ID: <161227058709.23782.114997279962445916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Framer writes: > Professors in the > university would recite the text word-for-word in class, > contradictions and all, and then comment on it. Quite a number of Buddhist sutras translated into Chinese seem to have been done in this way with accompanying oral explication and commentary. > A number of studies of famous memonists suggest that the > construction of extraordinary memories comes at a cost: loss of > creativity. Was this not also one of the earlier criticism's on the "memory place" technique even by Ricci's day ? It often led to the acquisition of many facts without true understanding. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 23 15:24:01 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 08:24:01 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058741.23782.16563616646729802355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > KK Raja defends the late 8th or early 9th century date. Hacker, Mayeda, > Nakamura and others argue for a date closer to 700 CE. Hacker and others' 700 dating derives from the suggestion by Kuppuswamy Sastri in the early 20th century that Sankaracharya predated Mandana seeing few sentences that have similar ideas. But this textual evdence may be wanting. Both could quote from an earlier author. However, inscriptions from Chola, Pandya, Hoysala periods dating to 11, 12, 13th centuries have been found related to Adi Sankaracharya. These inscriptions need to be taken into account, and parallels from dating of say Basava, Tamil alvars, nayanars or Sankara mathas like Kanchi or Sringeri suggest a much later date than the one by Hacker. Please consider a parallel with the advent of Writing in India (except for the "Sindhu-Sarasvati" letters taken as Sanskrit by S. R. Rao, ...). Prof. V. Agarwal was pointing to writing in the atharvaveda passages. Still no writing predating Ashoka has been found archaeologically (Falk, and others). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From A.Fort at TCU.EDU Tue May 23 13:49:08 2000 From: A.Fort at TCU.EDU (Fort, Andrew) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 08:49:08 -0500 Subject: Shankaracharya traditions Message-ID: <161227058731.23782.11081908544277638440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've been following the discussion of Vidyaranya, Shringeri, and Shankaracharyas with some interest, and would like to urge someone, either for or post Ph. D., to take on a serious comparative study of the histories of the Shringeri and Kanchi pithas (and their rivalry), using both textual resources and on the ground interviews. William Cenkner made a start at this, but there is much more to do. All this would mean is some mastery of Sanskrit, Tamil, Kannada, interviewing skills, and about five years of one's life! It would also be interesting to compare and contrast the current audiences for the Shankaracharyas (and compare them both with Ramana Maharshi's devotees). Does anyone know of someone working on some aspect of this? Best, Andy Fort Andrew O. Fort, Professor of Religion TCU Box 298100 Fort Worth TX 76129 a.fort at tcu.edu (817) 257-6448 From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue May 23 14:18:29 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 09:18:29 -0500 Subject: Liar's Paradox Message-ID: <161227058733.23782.7809433027906708321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following is posted on behalf of Ralph Bunker: To Indology List: Is there any mention of the class of paradoxes typified by the Liar's Paradox in Indian Logic and if so could someone give me the earliest reference? TIA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue May 23 17:02:13 2000 From: mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Tandy) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 10:02:13 -0700 Subject: rope and snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058739.23782.7623787519584617567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Try his CatuH-sUtrI introduction to the Brahma-sUtras. Michael Tandy Dept. of Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington On Tue, 23 May 2000, Carlos Lopez wrote: > Can anyone tell me where in Shankara's Vedantasutra comm. is the > discussion of the rope ~ snake is found? > > thanks > > CL From ABM at AZEURO.NET Tue May 23 17:10:05 2000 From: ABM at AZEURO.NET (JAMSHID) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 10:10:05 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227058717.23782.5068942064758944740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unsubscribe Jamshid. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue May 23 18:08:13 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 11:08:13 -0700 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test Message-ID: <161227058746.23782.12573076509776609013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann writes: > I have been following this thread and Steve Farmer's interesting and > informative posts, and I have a question for Steve. > > You quoted P. Olivelle in support of the possibility that: > > "the citations of opposing views and texts > from different vedic schools indicate that the authors were working > from manuscripts rather than oral tradition..." > > But your following description seems to confirm just the opposite: that > texts along with commentary can be memorized and discussed without a > written text. I understand that the teacher had a written text, but > the process you describe seems to have worked mainly using memory. The question that I asked Patrick Olivelle had to do with the quotations from dozens of *conflicting* schools that show up in later Vedic traditions, many of which apparently originated in widespread geographical regions. To all appearances, this began to occur in the last half of the first millennium BCE. This is exactly when similar cross-references begin to appear in Chinese and Greek traditions, when manuscripts from opposing schools became widely available in those civilizations. Another way of putting this: there was 'leakage' across school boundaries at some point, even when there were strong injunctions *within* the schools to stop all such leakage. (Esotericism wasn't an exclusively Vedic phenomenon: think of the Pythagoreans and other so-called mystery religions.) In the sutra literature, e.g., see the extensive list of cross-school citations collected by Makoto Fushimi for the Apastamba Srautra sutra, located (in the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies) at: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0401/ejvs0401.txt >?From a comparative historian's perspective, what is striking to me is how similar the cross-referencing found here is to cross-referencing seen in Chinese and Greek documents from roughly the same period. Computational measures of the *number* of such cross-references might even provide an estimate of the relative age of a manuscript tradition, which needs to reach a certain level of maturity before such cross-references are possible. (My colleagues and I are now developing this idea in computer simulations.) So the question only partly revolves around the issue of memorization: it also has to do with easy of contact between different schools. It is easier to explain that contact as occurring through manuscripts than orally, as I see it -- especially since we see similar things happening contemporaneously in the civilizations to the East and West of India. If you insist on 'saving the thesis' that this was all taking place orally in India -- as opposed to everyplace else on the planet -- you could, of course, imagine grand pan-Indian Vedic conferences in which everyone memorized everyone else's samhitas, brahmanas, aranyakas, upanishads, etc., and then went home and orally composed and memorized sutras quoting all these conflicting schools. (Whew, lots of work.) But I personally find that far-fetched: it reminds me of Ptolemaic epicycles, which can successfully -- but not parsimoniously -- explain planetary motions in a earth-centered universe. Why not instead embrace Ockham's razor and assume the obvious: that at some point manuscripts of opposing Vedic schools began to circulate broadly enough to allow these cross-references to occur? That doesn't mean that Vedic traditions abandoned oral modes of transmission. It just means that at some point sufficient numbers of manuscripts began to appear to allow such cross-referencing to become common. No matter what strictures existed against writing the Vedas down, people at some point still wrote them down: humans aren't in the habit of rejecting new technologies for long. Even premodern societies produced rebels, after all. Why else -- as many people on this List have pointed out -- the recurrent demands in the smrti literature that the Vedas *not* be written down. In any event, this was the argument that Prof. Olivelle was reacting to, leading to his obviously tentative conclusion that 'deep down, I think I would agree with you.' Obviously the question *can't* be settled right now, or every in your field would agree on it -- and they obviously don't. But the case for early Vedic manuscripts is far from being a closed one, as Falk and some others would have it. The fact that so many interesting open questions like this exist is what makes Indology such an utterly fascinating field. I wrote (this was my 'Wisconsin Card Sorting Test' argument): > >Shifting to the historical level, I've always wondered if the typical > >overreliance of scholastic writers on 'authority' in general wasn't > >*directly* related to the amount of time they spent memorizing texts. Luis responded: > Very interesting idea. > It could also be the other way around: they spent so much time memorizing > texts because there was an "overreliance" on authority. Serious dissent > was not tolerated for religious texts, and even for other literature, who > dared question Aristotle? Actually, they were still burning people for reading Aristotle in 1215. It was only later in the 13th century that the Aristotelian corpus became dominant in the western university. (What a difference a few decades makes: at the beginning of the century they were roasting people for quoting _De anima_. By the end of the century, they were giving them endowed chairs for doing so.) But my point is that pretty good neurobiological evidence is around that if you *do* spend a lot of time memorizing texts -- no matter what culture you are in -- that your adhesion to the concept of 'authority' in general will be intensified. And that, of course, is what we find in every manuscript culture known. It is only after printing becomes common that that attitude changes -- after memorization of texts becomes less common. I wrote a little on this in _Syncretism in the West_, e.g., p. 135, and discuss it at length in a new book I'm writing on neurobiology and the evolution of premodern cultures. > But more along your line of thought: maybe they spent so much time > memorizing texts because written texts, although they did exist, were nor > so widely available, or/and because if they wanted to find a particular > quote it was easier to go over the text/chaper in their heads. Things are > different when you have concordances and indexes at the back of books (or > when you can do a word search in a word processor). > You are of course partially right here. But premodern traditions often assumed forms that *did* make it easy to look things up in -- especially in scholastic periods -- and indices existed as well. (Think of the granddaddy of all indices, the Anukramani.) Similar things existed in the West -- e.g., in the tens of thousands of commentaries written from the mid 12th through mid 16th centuries on Peter Lombard's _Sentences_ (the main theological textbook in medieval Christianity). Do you want to quickly find out what *any* random medieval theologian thought about whether or not angels exist in space? Go to that theologian's comments on _Sentences_ bk. 1, distinction 37, and you can find out immediately -- no word-processor "find" function necessary! I'm learning a lot from you Indologists: thanks for indulging me. Unfortunately, deadlines are slipping.... Steve Farmer From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Tue May 23 09:20:50 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 11:20:50 +0200 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test Message-ID: <161227058719.23782.12026134336897240113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: > Stephen Hodge writes (re the mental deficits possibly found in > virtuoso reciters): > > > Was this not also one of the earlier criticisms on the "memory place" > > technique even by Ricci's day ? It often led to the acquisition of > > many facts without true understanding. > > Now that you jolt my memory -- making me temporarily forget my plans > to quit this thread -- it was. It's interesting that great reciters in > premodern societies were *often* portrayed as fools lost in their > facts and 'authorities.' In the Platonic dialogue entitled the _Ion_, > the reciter of the same name is portrayed as a fool who knows his > Homer verbatim but is incapable of independent thought. It seems to me that two different things are run together here that should for analytical purposes better be kept apart: (1) depth of understanding, (2) capacity of independent thought. It is certainly possible for a reciter of Vedic literature to have deep understanding of the "texts" he recites, but to still be incapable of formulating independent ideas in other areas or even to explain the meaning of the memorized texts in a vocabulary other than the one they use. Or else, one should be clearer about what constitutes "deep" understanding and what constitutes "independent" ideas Furthermore, even though it may be possible by means of psychological tests to detect a physiological basis for mental deficits in virtuoso reciters, I wonder what this would actually help to establish. I think the more interesting questions are what societal, cultural and/or political features condition the high esteem certain cultures have for virtuoso reciters, and in what specific situations precisely what forms of criticism of such "recitation machines" arise, perhaps, but not necessarily related to the emergence of writing or other competing "preservation technologies". Regarding these issues, pointing to de facto mental deficits might be interesting to know (if that can indeed be established), but would have little, if any, explanatory value - unless one is satisfied with claims such as "the emphasis on authority in Vedic traditions is caused by collective frontal-lobe deficiencies", which I seriously hope noone is. Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue May 23 18:31:16 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 11:31:16 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058750.23782.9826452085640629700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Hacker and others' 700 dating derives from the suggestion by > Kuppuswamy Sastri in the early 20th century that Sankaracharya > predated Mandana seeing few sentences that have similar ideas. > But this textual evdence may be wanting. Both could quote from Perhaps, but note also Allen Thrasher's work on Mandana Misra, where all the cross-references have been thoroughly discussed. If Sankara is to be dated to the 10th century, Mandana's date should also be similarly brought down. Textual evidence from Sankara, Mandana, Suresvara and Padmapada is too extensive to ignore. So also with Bhaskara, the bhedAbheda vedAntin, who refers copiously to Sankara's works, and with Buddhist authors who clearly post-date Mandana and Bhaskara. It would be rather difficult to defend such a late date for Sankara. > an earlier author. However, inscriptions from Chola, Pandya, Hoysala > periods dating to 11, 12, 13th centuries have been found related to > Adi Sankaracharya. These inscriptions need to be taken into account, > and parallels from dating of say Basava, Tamil alvars, nayanars > or Sankara mathas like Kanchi or Sringeri suggest a much later > date than the one by Hacker. ??? Kanchi matha claims Sankara lived in 500 BCE. Contemporary Sringeri publications give the "standard" 788-820 CE dates, which is based on a traditional chronogram prevalent in the Deccan. This was published by K. B. Pathak in The Indian Antiquary, 1882. The old Sringeri record simply says that Sankara was a contemporary of a king named Vikramaditya. Who this Vikramaditya could be is a matter of interpretation. The inscriptions you note indicate only that Sankara lived prior to the 11th century, and not that he lived later than the 9th century. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From shrao at NYX.NET Tue May 23 18:05:17 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:05:17 -0600 Subject: rope and snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058745.23782.7197725503430755460.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Can anyone tell me where in Shankara's Vedantasutra comm. is the > discussion of the rope ~ snake is found? Under II-1.9 (may also be in other places). Regards, Shrisha Rao > CL From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 23 11:06:34 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:06:34 +0100 Subject: SV: Mnemonics in Ancient India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058721.23782.7262687764417474538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 May 2000, L.S.Cousins wrote: > There are a very small number of monks in Burma today who are > recognized as having memorized the whole Pali Canon. That's more than > 26M on my hard disk ! > > But I have no idea how accurate they are or how much they made use of > the written texts in learning. Surely it would be a critically important, not to say interesting, research issue to answer this question about accuracy, extent, and use of text, given the general interest in mnemotechnics. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 23 11:09:57 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:09:57 +0100 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar In-Reply-To: <39284E8F.979E52DD@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227058723.23782.16187188602392709780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 May 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > The inherent ambiguities in Sanskrit make it possible [...] I don't think any language can be called inherently ambiguous, unless such a claim is based on some quantitative measure of, say, numbers of homonyms. Certainly Sanskrit is not any more inherently ambiguous than other languages. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue May 23 19:20:48 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:20:48 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058752.23782.9302333663298626270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > So also with Bhaskara, the bhedAbheda vedAntin, who >refers copiously to Sankara's works, and with Buddhist authors who clearly >post-date Mandana and Bhaskara. Tibetan material fixes Mandana in 7th century; But Bhaskara's date is in the 10th century. He is said to be a younger contemporary of Adi Sankara. Or, is Bhaskara earlier than 10th century? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 23 11:24:56 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:24:56 +0100 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar In-Reply-To: <39284E8F.979E52DD@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227058725.23782.16238970837541989.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 21 May 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > Proof is tough, but that's true in every scientific discipline. All > you can do when an historical issue is ambiguous is weigh the evidence > on both sides and make a tentative judgment. But this is exactly what Falk has been doing, surely. Falk has looked longer and harder at the issue of ancient Indian writing than any other living scholar I can think of, except perhaps Richard Salomon. He has personally walked to all the known Asokan inscription sites. He has developed very interesting arguments based on graphic variablility in the Asokan inscriptions, etc. etc. Patrick is a much respected colleague and friend, and I'm sure he would be the first to agree that you can't present his informal conversational musings on this topic at the same level as Falk's extensive and sustained scholarly enquiry. > especially when some of the most important adherents of non-mainsteam > views are no longer on this list? To whom are you referring? The people I have had to unsubscribe for rude behaviour number no more than about four people, and none of them -- if I recall -- contributed to the present topic in past discussions. The INDOLOGY membership still stands at over 600 people. I don't think you can really sustain a view that this list is somehow lacking in people with diverse views and a willingness to discuss scholarly issues energetically, even in sharp disagreement. My policy about rudeness is exactly that; it has nothing to do with supressing views of one or other faction. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue May 23 16:40:19 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:40:19 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058735.23782.11302792811437494359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Dr. Filliozat for the updates. But I would appreciate some more details. In a message dated 5/22/2000 3:01:21 AM Central Daylight Time, pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR writes: > In 1986 a seminar was held in Bangalore on the topic of Early Vijayanagara > studies and the papers were published in 1988. Some valuable articles have > appeared in this volume amongst which "Identity of Madhava Vidyaranya by K. > Krishnamurthy annd Vidyaranya's Association with the Vijayanagara Empire by > Venimadhava Shastri". In these articles both the authors have proved the > identity of Madhava &Vidyaranya with scholarly arguments and references. Can you give the title of this volume? > In the making of modern Karnataka empire brothers Sayana and Madhava played > a vital role under the guidance of their Guru Vidyatirthamuni who was then > on the pontifical seat of Sharadapitha at Shringeri. The crucial question in this thread is the history of Sringeri maTha. Has any new information come to light regarding this? Have you or other scholars authenticated and analyzed the pre-Karnataka/Vijayanagara records mentioned by Vidyasankar? Whom do you agree with on the pre-Karnataka history of Sringeri, Kulke or Vidyasankar? > All the relatives and > the vassals of defunct Hoysala kings gave their full support to the new > rulers in their efforts of consolidation of one empire. Madhava occupied the > seat of the minister and the adviser to Harihara I is proved from his > "Puranasaara" which is being published by the ORI in Mysore. Based on Kulke's work (p.129) you seem to be reversing your views of 1985. Can you briefly tell us the basis of your change of view? Does this mean that Harihara I had two ministers named Madhava? or as some others have held Madhavamantrin and Madhava-Vidyaranya were one and the same? > Only a "kadita" in Shringeri matha mentions the fact the Bukka > requested the Guru to send a letter to Vidyaranya to return from Kashi but > it is not substantiated by the inscriptions. Then, are you in agreement with Kulke that the "kaDita" records held by Sringeri maTha are not reliable? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue May 23 11:41:21 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:41:21 +0100 Subject: Vedic Reciters/Wisconsin Card Sorting Test In-Reply-To: <3929BDC6.A978FEF4@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227058729.23782.3333498859397959387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 22 May 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > Luria, for example, notes that > Sherishevskii had difficulty escaping his concrete memories, "making > it impossible for him to cross that 'accursed' threshold to a higher > level of thought" (1968: 133). I seem to recall (read Luria ages ago) that Sherishevskii also felt subjectively very oppressed by his memories, especially as he got older. Luria taught him some method of "throwing a blanket over his memories", and that helped him to a large degree to live with his (dis)ability. I think your suggestion of testing some Veda reciters is fascinating. I hope someone does it. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Tue May 23 17:51:41 2000 From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela or Alain Sandness Leblanc) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 12:51:41 -0500 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058737.23782.990695816953938960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those interested in Ancient Indian Mnemonics may also wish to be reminded of Charles Malamoud's article regarding memory in ancient India: "Par coeur: Note sur le jeu de l'amour et de la m?moire dans la po?sie de l'Inde ancienne" in Cuire le monde: rite et pens?e dans l'Inde ancienne (Paris: Editions la D?couverte, 1989), 295-306. Best wishes, Adela Sandness Associate Researcher Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University ---------- >From: Dominik Wujastyk >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar >Date: Tue, May 23, 2000, 6:24 AM > >On Sun, 21 May 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > >> Proof is tough, but that's true in every scientific discipline. All >> you can do when an historical issue is ambiguous is weigh the evidence >> on both sides and make a tentative judgment. > >But this is exactly what Falk has been doing, surely. Falk has looked >longer and harder at the issue of ancient Indian writing than any other >living scholar I can think of, except perhaps Richard Salomon. He has >personally walked to all the known Asokan inscription sites. He has >developed very interesting arguments based on graphic variablility in the >Asokan inscriptions, etc. etc. > >Patrick is a much respected colleague and friend, and I'm sure he would be >the first to agree that you can't present his informal conversational >musings on this topic at the same level as Falk's extensive and sustained >scholarly enquiry. > >> especially when some of the most important adherents of non-mainsteam >> views are no longer on this list? > >To whom are you referring? The people I have had to unsubscribe for rude >behaviour number no more than about four people, and none of them -- if I >recall -- contributed to the present topic in past discussions. The >INDOLOGY membership still stands at over 600 people. I don't think you >can really sustain a view that this list is somehow lacking in people with >diverse views and a willingness to discuss scholarly issues energetically, >even in sharp disagreement. My policy about rudeness is exactly that; it >has nothing to do with supressing views of one or other faction. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue May 23 11:36:02 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 13:36:02 +0200 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar Message-ID: <161227058727.23782.12038790219758154398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve, I second Dominik's words entirely. As I also wrote in a personal email, I think that --- valuable as the discussion you have started is --- it would be appropriate for you to present arguments/evidence, instead of continuing to make bold statements against Falk's work in the discussion (also at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/abstract.html "recent claims that writing did not enter India until the mid-third century BCE? are rejected on strong evidential grounds"), without actually presenting the 'strong' evidence which you claim to have. This is unfair to Falk. -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 ---------- >From: Dominik Wujastyk >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: Mnemonics in Ancient India - AitAar >Date: din, 23 mei 2000 1:24 PM > > On Sun, 21 May 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > >> Proof is tough, but that's true in every scientific discipline. All >> you can do when an historical issue is ambiguous is weigh the evidence >> on both sides and make a tentative judgment. > > But this is exactly what Falk has been doing, surely. Falk has looked > longer and harder at the issue of ancient Indian writing than any other > living scholar I can think of, except perhaps Richard Salomon. He has > personally walked to all the known Asokan inscription sites. He has > developed very interesting arguments based on graphic variablility in the > Asokan inscriptions, etc. etc. > > Patrick is a much respected colleague and friend, and I'm sure he would be > the first to agree that you can't present his informal conversational > musings on this topic at the same level as Falk's extensive and sustained > scholarly enquiry. > >> especially when some of the most important adherents of non-mainsteam >> views are no longer on this list? > > To whom are you referring? The people I have had to unsubscribe for rude > behaviour number no more than about four people, and none of them -- if I > recall -- contributed to the present topic in past discussions. The > INDOLOGY membership still stands at over 600 people. I don't think you > can really sustain a view that this list is somehow lacking in people with > diverse views and a willingness to discuss scholarly issues energetically, > even in sharp disagreement. My policy about rudeness is exactly that; it > has nothing to do with supressing views of one or other faction. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue May 23 18:27:11 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 14:27:11 -0400 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058748.23782.14581981437478989226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is good to see that there is so much interest in this topic. A couple of points: First, the discussion began with Steve Farmer's comments re pre-modern European mnemonics, which developed the use of the visual cue into very elaborate 'memory palaces,' from mnemonics in ancient India, which appear to be primarily a matter of strenuous rote memorization. Though it is clear that later, post-Vedic Vaidikas may have used mudrAs and something like proto-maNDalas, it should be noted that there is no mention of these devices in Vedic texts themselves. Or perhaps I should say that there is no use of these TERMS in Vedic. Is there reference to such techniques [i.e., the use of visual cues] using other terms? By the way, both Malamoud [mentioned by A. Sandness] and Staal himself have mentioned yet another device: that of the rather forceful, 'rhythmic' steering of the Veda-student's head back and forth at the hand of the teacher. Steve Farmer's point that the Vedic vikRtis may well be byproducts of rote memorization of Vedic texts, instead of mnemonic techniques in the strict sense, is interesting and deserves further consideration. As Staal has repeatedly emphasized, these vikRtis function to prevent the unconscious substitution of a synonym or an approximate homonym in the slot given to a particular element in the transmitted text. The obligation to observe sandhi alternation in the recitation of these vikRtis seems to serve the same function. That is, the vikRtis are a backup device intended to inhibit unconscious substitution. They are not simply tour de force displays of skill, as the memorization of a text 'backwards and forwards' would appear to be. This suggests that in Vedic there is in fact a kind of ekAgratA [to borrow the term used by S.R. Mehta]. The vikRti, as a mnemonic device -- if that is in fact what it is -- is just one manifestation of that single focus which I think is characteristic of Vedic in general: that is, focus not only on the received text, but also on the language of that text -- in particular on the ANALYSIS of that language. This involves not only the analysis of its phonological shape [in the prAtizAkhyas], but also the analysis of semantic features [as in the nirukta tradition, and even in the brAhmaNas to some extent], as well as syntactic and morphological features. These late Vedic activities are the predecessors of the astonishing Paninian tradition which was the first systematic linguistic analysis of a language ever attempted. I believe that metalinguistic operations like these can be traced back even to the Rgveda, where metalinguistics and poetics are thoroughly intertwined [of course, the metaphor *speech* = *weaving* is widespread in the RV]. Well, there are other things to be said about Vedic smRti [memory], but I've probably already exceeded the acceptable limits of a single post. In closing, I would agree with Arlo Griffith and Dominik Wujastyk that Harry Falk has done the hard work of examining the evidence and should not be dismissed by reference to the unpublished remarks of Patrick Olivelle and unnamed others. Reference to Patrick Olivelle in this context is just as unfair to Patrick himself as it is to Falk. At least so it seems to me. Best wishes, George Thompson From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed May 24 00:23:10 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 17:23:10 -0700 Subject: 'inherent ambiguities' in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227058757.23782.7563020337727517761.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote: > The inherent ambiguities in Sanskrit make it possible [...] Dominik Wjastyk replied: > I don't think any language can be called inherently ambiguous, unless such > a claim is based on some quantitative measure of, say, numbers of > homonyms. Certainly Sanskrit is not any more inherently ambiguous than > other languages. I made this point in passing; whether it is right or wrong, let me try to make my point clearer. What I had in mind didn't only concern the number of homonyms in the language but as well the special chronological problems faced by Indologists. Sanskrit obviously has an immense vocabulary, and the meanings of particular terms that at some point were related to writing (e.g., lipi, grantha) obviously evolved over time. From an outsider's perspective -- and as a comparative historian, I'm perpetually an outsider -- these chronological difficulties seem to present special difficulties. Classical Greek and Latin too have immense vocabularies, but the problems in dating Greek and Latin texts are usually (not always) far less difficult than those faced by Indologists. Many terms in Latin and Greek evolved as well, but when you have an ancient Latin or Greek text in mind, you generally have a pretty good idea (within a century or so) when the text originated. This gives you an edge when you are attempting to establish the meaning of a word from a broader set of possibilities. So far as I can tell, many of the arguments over whether or not a specific Vedic text refers to writing arises from these chronological difficulties. Does 'lipi' in Panini or 'grantha' in another text refer to writing or books or something totally different? The answer that Indologists give often depends heavily on how they date the textual strata in which these words are embedded, but those dates themselves are often hotly contended. The problem of fixing the meanings of terms that may or may not refer to early writing in Sanskrit becomes circular. Hence my suggestion about the 'inherent ambiguities' in the language, arising in part from these chronological difficulties. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed May 24 01:47:28 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 18:47:28 -0700 Subject: Yogic Texts: Gorakhaanth Message-ID: <161227058759.23782.13138631831461317086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I have found online translations of two texts pertaining to the yogic tradition of Gorakhaanth: 1) Gorak.sa Zataka* and 2) Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati.** I have a three questions. 1. Is the text ?Gorak.sa Zataka? (Hundred Verses of Gorak.sa) considered to be Gorakhaanth?s only surviving treatise? 2. May I assume that the title ?Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati? the same as the ?Gorak.sa Paddhiti?? 3. Is the ?Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati? a later commentary on the ?Gorak.sa Zataka,? or is it supposed to be composed by Gorakhaanth? Best regards, Ven. Tantra * ?Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati,? trans. M. Magee (1995), . ** ?Gorak.sa Zataka,? trans. M. Magee (1995), . __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR Tue May 23 17:38:26 2000 From: Gerard.Huet at INRIA.FR (Gerard Huet) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 19:38:26 +0200 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058743.23782.1191858555921234573.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re I don't think any language can be called inherently ambiguous, unless such a claim is based on some quantitative measure of, say, numbers of homonyms. Certainly Sanskrit is not any more inherently ambiguous than other languages. Well, the fact that Sanskrit insists on phonetic assimilation, through the use of sandhi, which glues all the words within a phonetic stream, poses an extra level of non-determinism in understanding a sentence, even in written form. This ambiguity in sandhi deciphering precedes the possible ambiguities in homonyms. This may explain why certain techniques of recitation were useful, since they revealed the individual words from the phonetic mess. If you recite the words backward in an english or french sentence you will not get extra information, but in Sanskrit you certainly do. GH From fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT Tue May 23 19:54:16 2000 From: fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT (Federico Squarcini) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 21:54:16 +0200 Subject: Liar's Paradox In-Reply-To: <002001bfc4c1$c729c980$10cc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227058754.23782.4232176666332687721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I got this reference as a starting poin: Jane M. Houben, Bhart?hari's Solution to the Liar and some other Paradoxes, in "Journal of Indian Philosophy", 23(1995), n. 4, pp. 381-401. Squarcini From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue May 23 21:14:54 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 23 May 00 23:14:54 +0200 Subject: Liar's Paradox Message-ID: <161227058756.23782.15713673007567290292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> in the mentioned article the focus is on verses 1-3 and 20-28 of Vakyapadiya 3.3; it contains a number of references to earlier discussions of the liar and other paradoxes. These verses of the Vakyapadiya have also been studied and translated, together with the intervening verses 4-19, in my The Sambandha-Samuddesa (chapter on relation) and Bhartrhari's philosophy of language, Groningen: Egbert Forsten, 1995 (Gonda Indological studies, vol. 2). See further Claus Oetke "On the so-called Bhartrhari-paradox", at the World Sanskrit Conference in Bangalore 1997 (English Abstracts). and: George Cardona, Recent research in Paninian Studies (Delhi 1999), p. 269 and notes. Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: Federico Squarcini To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 9:39 PM Subject: Re: Liar's Paradox I got this reference as a starting poin: Jane M. Houben, Bhart?hari's Solution to the Liar and some other Paradoxes, in "Journal of Indian Philosophy", 23(1995), n. 4, pp. 381-401. Squarcini From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed May 24 11:40:26 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 07:40:26 -0400 Subject: Email address for Dr. Aithal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058767.23782.17562627647894364547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the email address for Dr. Aithal at Heidelberg? Thanks. Madhav Deshpande From Thomas.Lowder at YOGANANDA-SRF.ORG Wed May 24 16:49:49 2000 From: Thomas.Lowder at YOGANANDA-SRF.ORG (Thomas Lowder) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 09:49:49 -0700 Subject: GorakhnAth Message-ID: <161227058773.23782.2041651375633763694.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> GorakSaZataka can also be found in GorakhnAth and the KanphaTa Yogis by George Weston Briggs. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, reprint in 1982 from 1938 publishing (still in print I believe). There is also a brief commentary on each verse. Thomas (, Br.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 24 09:16:14 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 10:16:14 +0100 Subject: Religions studies job advertisement, Stirling. Message-ID: <161227058765.23782.17017262578948263156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- SENIOR LECTURER/READER IN RELIGIOUS STUDIES Applicants are invited for a Senior Lecturer/Reader in Religious Studies. The successful candidate will have an excellent record of research publications. Applicants should be able to engage in the cross-cultural and interdisciplinary study of religion, and contribute to undergraduate and postgraduate teaching and supervision, including the taught Masters program in Religion, Culture and Critical Theory. The successful candidate will also be expected to take on a senior role in the management and administration of the department. The department is particularly keen to build upon its existing research and teaching expertise and to expand its teaching within the areas of Buddhism or other religions of Asia, indigenous traditions, and contemporary spirituality. Other areas of Religious Studies will also be considered. Salary will be in the Senior Lectureship range (?31,563- ?35,670 p.a.). Informal inquiries can be made to Dr Jeremy Carrette (Tel: (01786) 466242 or e-mail: jrc3 at stir.ac.uk). Further particulars are available from the Personnel Office, University of Stirling, Stirling, FK9 4LA, tel.: (01786) 467028, fax (01786) 466155 or email personnel at stir.ac.uk. (Ref: 264) Closing date for applications: Thursday 15 June 2000. Interviews are likely to be held in the middle of July. http://www.stir.ac.uk/departments/admin/personl AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES EMPLOYER Dr Malory Nye Dept of Religious Studies University of Stirling Stirling, FK9 4LA, UK From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed May 24 08:23:40 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 10:23:40 +0200 Subject: Gorakhnath Message-ID: <161227058763.23782.1531180907270700057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The MachIndra GoraHa Bodh attributed to GorakSnAtha has been translated into Italian by Misra in the 80ies. If you want more info I will look at the precise biblio after June 14 (sorry but I am leaving). Enrica Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** Peter Friedlander wrote: > > Regarding the Ven Tantra's links to Gorakhnath texts, > > I think the Gorak Bodh is one of the texts in Gorakh Bani edited by P. D. > Barthwal (without comparing the text) > > Does anybody know if any more of the old Hindi works of Gorakhnath have been > translated into English? > > I heard back in the 80s of somebody translating them but am not aware of any > publications > > Dr Peter G. Friedlander > Department of Asian Studies > La Trobe University > Bundoora, VIC 3083 > Tel: 61 3 9479 2064 > Fax: 61 3 9479 1880 > Buddhism pages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/asianstudies/Buddha/index.html > Hindi pages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/indian_gallery/Hindi.html -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From p.friedlander at LATROBE.EDU.AU Wed May 24 03:04:26 2000 From: p.friedlander at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Peter Friedlander) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 13:04:26 +1000 Subject: Gorakhnath Message-ID: <161227058761.23782.6396496429025011078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the Ven Tantra's links to Gorakhnath texts, I think the Gorak Bodh is one of the texts in Gorakh Bani edited by P. D. Barthwal (without comparing the text) Does anybody know if any more of the old Hindi works of Gorakhnath have been translated into English? I heard back in the 80s of somebody translating them but am not aware of any publications Dr Peter G. Friedlander Department of Asian Studies La Trobe University Bundoora, VIC 3083 Tel: 61 3 9479 2064 Fax: 61 3 9479 1880 Buddhism pages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/asianstudies/Buddha/index.html Hindi pages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/indian_gallery/Hindi.html From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed May 24 11:51:40 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 13:51:40 +0200 Subject: Email address for Dr. Aithal Message-ID: <161227058769.23782.9683353972597570467.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I believe it must be: Parameswara Aithal Arlo ---------- >From: Madhav Deshpande >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Email address for Dr. Aithal >Date: woe, 24 mei 2000 1:40 PM > > Does anyone have the email address for Dr. Aithal at Heidelberg? Thanks. > > Madhav Deshpande From george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Wed May 24 13:27:51 2000 From: george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (George Baumann) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 15:27:51 +0200 Subject: Gorakhnath In-Reply-To: <001301bfc52c$c4f9c780$089cac83@asia.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <161227058771.23782.14516724962752701344.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Friedlander, In our library there are the following two editions which contain English or German translations: 1)GorakSaZataka. Fausta Nowotny. Koeln: K. A. Nowotny. [Bonn: Habelt in Komm.] 1976. 165 p. (Dokumente der Geistesgeschichte. 3). Call no. in Tuebingen= 1 E 2067 2) Yoga bija. Ed. & transl. Brahma Mitra Awasthi. Delhi: Swami Keshawananda Yoga Inst. [ca. 1983]. 112. p. Call no.= 27 A 11420 With best regards, George Baumann > Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:04:26 +1000 > Reply-to: Indology > From: Peter Friedlander > Subject: Gorakhnath > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Regarding the Ven Tantra's links to Gorakhnath texts, > > I think the Gorak Bodh is one of the texts in Gorakh Bani edited by P. D. > Barthwal (without comparing the text) > > Does anybody know if any more of the old Hindi works of Gorakhnath have been > translated into English? > > I heard back in the 80s of somebody translating them but am not aware of any > publications > > Dr Peter G. Friedlander > Department of Asian Studies > La Trobe University > Bundoora, VIC 3083 > Tel: 61 3 9479 2064 > Fax: 61 3 9479 1880 > Buddhism pages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/asianstudies/Buddha/index.html > Hindi pages: http://www.latrobe.edu.au/www/indian_gallery/Hindi.html > ___________________________________________________________ Dr. G. Baumann Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: +7071-2972587 Fax: +7071-293123 ___________________________________________________________ From jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK Wed May 24 20:18:29 2000 From: jim at RAWLINGSFARM.DEMON.CO.UK (James Mallinson) Date: Wed, 24 May 00 21:18:29 +0100 Subject: Yogic Texts: Gorakhaanth Message-ID: <161227058776.23782.9137157814258557424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Ven. Tantra" wrote: > Dear members, > > I have found online translations of two texts > pertaining to the yogic tradition of Gorakhaanth: 1) > Gorak.sa Zataka* and 2) Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati.** I > have a three questions. > > 1. Is the text Gorak.sa Zataka (Hundred Verses of > Gorak.sa) considered to be Gorakhaanths only > surviving treatise? Several Sanskrit and Hindi works are ascribed to Gorak.sanaatha/Gorakhnaath. Among the Sanskrit texts are Amanaskayoga, Amaraughaprabodha, Amaraughazaasana, Gorak.sasa.mhitaa (three completely different versions), Yogabiija and Yogacintaama.ni. Many of the Hindi works ascribed to him can be found in Barthwal's Gorakhbaa.nii. Whether even the Gorak.sazataka (GZ) was written by Gorakhnaath is a matter of debate. The text can be found in several different recensions and under many different names. The oldest (pre-1700 CE) mss and references to the text call it Vivekamaartaa.n.da (VM). This work varies in length from 157 to 201 verses in its various recensions. The mss and editions of the Gorak.sazataka in 100 verses are clearly incomplete (having introduced the six aNgas of yoga, they stop half-way through explaining the second, praa.naayaama). The confusion over the name of the text may have arisen due to the existence of an altogether different text called Gorak.sazataka (pre-1450 CE---the Ha.thapradiipikaa borrows from it). This text is unpublished (there are at least 4 mss of the work) but eighty of its hundred verses were used to compose the first chapter of the Yogaku.n.dalyupani.sad. I suspect that most if not all of the Sanskrit texts now ascribed to GN were done so retroactively. > > 2. May I assume that the title Siddha Siddhanta > Paddhati the same as the Gorak.sa Paddhiti? No. The SSP is a text on Naatha yoga and metaphysics from the Maraa.thii-speaking region, quite different from the Gorak.sapaddhati/VM/GZ. Like the VM, it can be dated to pre-1363 CE since it is quoted (without attribution) in the ZaarNgadharapaddhati. Gorak.sapaddhati is one of the many names by which the Vivekamaartaa.n.da/Gorak.sazataka has been called. > > 3. Is the Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati a later > commentary on the Gorak.sa Zataka, No, see above. > or is it supposed > to be composed by Gorakhaanth? Most of the colophons of manuscripts of the SSP ascribe it to Gorak.sanaatha, but some ascribe it to Nityanaatha. The text has been edited and published by K.Mallik (1954: Poona Oriental Book House). I hope this is of some help. James Mallinson. Balliol College. Oxford University. From rg.thomas at UWS.EDU.AU Thu May 25 00:13:01 2000 From: rg.thomas at UWS.EDU.AU (Richard thomas) Date: Thu, 25 May 00 01:13:01 +0100 Subject: Indra's Son Message-ID: <161227058778.23782.10318811552134731481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A buddhist inscription from 9th century Vietnam describes the incarnations of the king/ Buddha with a list of Hindu deities including 'Indra's Son'. I have been unable to discover which God is being invoked by this reference. Does anyone have any ideas? From fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Thu May 25 18:11:04 2000 From: fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Barbara Schuler) Date: Thu, 25 May 00 11:11:04 -0700 Subject: Lectureship in Hindi, Univ. of Hamburg, Germany Message-ID: <161227058781.23782.13317497094777905111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lectureship in Hindi, University of Hamburg Re.: Announcement of May 2, 2000 To administrative reasons the selection of a lecturer had to be temporarily suspended. The formal announcement of the same position should be obtained from the Institute for India and Tibet, Neue Rabenstr. 3, 20354 Hamburg, Germany, tel. +49-40-42838-3385, fax +49-40-42838-6944, or via email fo8a014 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Mrs. Prof. T. Oranskaia). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu May 25 10:28:26 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 25 May 00 11:28:26 +0100 Subject: Bulletin of Dept. Sankr. & Ind. Stud. Message-ID: <161227058786.23782.10730393625586586701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To Whon it May Concern: Could you please find out whether Harvard University has ever published the following priodical: Bulletin of the Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies. I found reference to an issue dated 1992. Joachim Karsten c/o Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT Thu May 25 09:49:48 2000 From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha) Date: Thu, 25 May 00 11:49:48 +0200 Subject: AW: Indra's Son In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058784.23782.13864283814298842543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Haussig (G?tter und Mythen des indischen Subkontinents, Stuttgart: Klett-Cotta 1984, p.114) gives under the entry indrANI: "wife of Indra, also ZacI. *Mother of Rudra Jayanta*." Haussig then refers to MahAbhArata I 114 and BhAgavatapurANa VI 18. The question, if the son of the wife is also her husbands son, is not considered. Himal Trikha From athr at LOC.GOV Thu May 25 19:15:25 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 25 May 00 15:15:25 -0400 Subject: Divehi speaker in DC area needed Message-ID: <161227058788.23782.6250285092554986636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If there are any speakers of Divehi in the Washington, DC area, or anyone who knows one, could you please contact me off the list? We need a (very) small amount of volunteer help with Divehi periodicals. I will also be contacting the Maldives interest section at the Sri Lanka embassy. Allen Thrasher From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri May 26 03:11:02 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 25 May 00 20:11:02 -0700 Subject: Yogic Texts: Gorakhnaath Message-ID: <161227058791.23782.4524292777681517486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Yogic Texts: Gorakhnaath Dear James Mallinson, Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough response to my inquiry regarding Yogic Texts: Gorakhnaath. Your posting has given me a much better sense of the literary basis of this very interesting area of study. Ven. Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri May 26 05:00:47 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 01:00:47 -0400 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? Message-ID: <161227058794.23782.12518898108922160447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Here we find the Sangh Parivar, the organisation recognised as following the purest form of Orthodox Hinduism, Factually incorrect. >It is the Hindu Brahmins of the Sangh, who represent all Hindus, and not Western-educated software programmers. I have to say that these remarks are offensive to both programming and non programming hindus. The sangh does not represent all hindus. Jokes aside the list master should take not of this. From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri May 26 09:08:00 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 05:08:00 -0400 Subject: Kim Plofker In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058799.23782.3682707790526701246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kim also has her own e-mail: On Fri, 26 May 2000, Arlo Griffiths wrote: > Yes, she does Indian Math. When last I heard, she was at Brown University, > where you may contact her through > > "David Pingree" (I believe it is actually Kim > Plofker who reads Pingree's emails) > > Good luck, > > Arlo Griffiths > > ---------- > >From: Johannes Bronkhorst > >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >Subject: Kim Plofker > >Date: vri, 26 mei 2000 9:34 AM > > > > > Could anyone inform me about the work and whereabouts of Kim Plofker, who > > seems to be working in the field of Indian mathematics? Thanks in advance. > > > > Johannes Bronkhorst > From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri May 26 13:02:37 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 09:02:37 -0400 Subject: SV: Kim Plofker In-Reply-To: <01BFC705.172C3400.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227058803.23782.17315615221608735634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's coming. Slowly. Witzel's paper is ready. Carl Lamberg Karlovsky will be contributing. But we're still waiting on two or three papers. Not everyone is as deligent as you, I'm afraid. But we decided to wait and have a well represented volume, rather than rush. Hope all is well. E On Fri, 26 May 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Edwin Bryant [SMTP:ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] skrev 26. mai 2000 11:08: > > Hello Edwin, > > since your name turned up .... > > How is the book coming along? > > Best wishes, > > Lars Martin > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > Email: lmfosse at online.no > From Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH Fri May 26 07:34:04 2000 From: Johannes.Bronkhorst at ORIENT.UNIL.CH (Johannes Bronkhorst) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 09:34:04 +0200 Subject: Kim Plofker In-Reply-To: <39282407.571831CA@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227058796.23782.12977680993597246500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone inform me about the work and whereabouts of Kim Plofker, who seems to be working in the field of Indian mathematics? Thanks in advance. Johannes Bronkhorst From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri May 26 07:39:22 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 09:39:22 +0200 Subject: Kim Plofker Message-ID: <161227058798.23782.16361319070726526111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, she does Indian Math. When last I heard, she was at Brown University, where you may contact her through "David Pingree" (I believe it is actually Kim Plofker who reads Pingree's emails) Good luck, Arlo Griffiths ---------- >From: Johannes Bronkhorst >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Kim Plofker >Date: vri, 26 mei 2000 9:34 AM > > Could anyone inform me about the work and whereabouts of Kim Plofker, who > seems to be working in the field of Indian mathematics? Thanks in advance. > > Johannes Bronkhorst From athr at LOC.GOV Fri May 26 14:30:30 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 10:30:30 -0400 Subject: Asram Vidya publications - evaluation Message-ID: <161227058809.23782.6720236125734636911.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Would anyone care to comment on the scholarly value of the Italian translations of Indian classics, mostly Advaita Vedanta, published by Edizioni Asram Vidya. I saw a very small number in Torino at the book displays but the web page lists are large number. Do they have scholarly apparatus? Is there reason to believe they are not direct from the Sanskrit but from English? Thanks, Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From dsm at CYPRESS.COM Fri May 26 17:53:17 2000 From: dsm at CYPRESS.COM (Dinesh Maheshwari) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 10:53:17 -0700 Subject: Kim Plofker Message-ID: <161227058811.23782.11886860104420497295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Johannes, Kim's email address is Kim_Plofker at brown.edu ; I was in correspondence with her at the aforementioned email address till March 9th, 2000 Her web page is http://www.brown.edu/Departments/History_Mathematics/plofker.html She was a student of Professor David Pingree and does subscribe to Dr Pingree's school of thought regarding history of Indian Mathematics. Perhaps you already know that Dr Pingree's work is a large compilation of history of Indian mathematics and astronomy but is unfortunately not thorough with regards to early Indian mathematics/astronomy and is in contradiction with the deeper analysis by mathematicians and historians like A. Siedenberg etc. Regards, Dinesh Maheshwari Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: > Could anyone inform me about the work and whereabouts of Kim Plofker, who > seems to be working in the field of Indian mathematics? Thanks in advance. > > Johannes Bronkhorst From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 26 18:01:23 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 11:01:23 -0700 Subject: AW: Indra's Son In-Reply-To: <000301bfc62e$90443e50$85b68283@indo.univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <161227058815.23782.2967464918065392497.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >The identification of Jayanta (sometimes in the form of a crow) as >a (or the) son of Indra occurs in a number of textual and oral >sources. He is associated in some traditions with the origins of the >Kumbha Mela and is said, in some puranic sources, to fight on the >side of the devas in their battles with the asuras. For some of these references see our ( Goldman and Sutherland Goldman) note to Valmiki Ramayana 5. 36.24 in: The Ramayana of Valmiki: An Epic of Ancient India, Vol. V: Sundarakanda.. Princeton. Princeton University Press, 1996 p. 456. >Haussig (G?tter und Mythen des indischen Subkontinents, Stuttgart: >Klett-Cotta 1984, p.114) gives under the entry indrANI: "wife of Indra, also >ZacI. *Mother of Rudra Jayanta*." Haussig then refers to MahAbhArata I 114 >and BhAgavatapurANa VI 18. >The question, if the son of the wife is also her husbands son, is not >considered. > >Himal Trikha -- Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri May 26 09:24:43 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 11:24:43 +0200 Subject: SV: Kim Plofker Message-ID: <161227058801.23782.6057025091522479046.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant [SMTP:ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] skrev 26. mai 2000 11:08: Hello Edwin, since your name turned up .... How is the book coming along? Best wishes, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri May 26 09:33:05 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 11:33:05 +0200 Subject: Sorry! Message-ID: <161227058807.23782.8677643844477261809.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse [SMTP:lmfosse at ONLINE.NO] skrev 26. mai 2000 11:25: I apologize to the list for sending a private question to the whole list! Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri May 26 19:01:46 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 12:01:46 -0700 Subject: Indra's son Message-ID: <161227058817.23782.2977788407499139999.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Goldman, Is the story of Jayanta in the form of a crow trying to hurt Sita told in Valmiki (Sundarakanda)? Perialvar in the Divyaprabandham and Kamban in his Ramayanam tells this story. Folkstories explain how the crows got only one eye from this episode. Do only southern mss. of Valmiki have this episode? Thank, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri May 26 19:49:14 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert Goldman) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 12:49:14 -0700 Subject: Indra's son In-Reply-To: <20000526190146.12706.qmail@web310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227058819.23782.18421931546033889427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Do only southern mss. of Valmiki have this episode? No, it is found in one form for another in the various recensions and subrecensions. It is somewhat more elaborate in the southern manuscripts, however, where the crow actually attacks SItA twice. Since RAma only intervenes to protect her on the second occasion the commentator GovindarAja, commenting on a version of the southern text, reads the whole story as a sort of ZrIvaiSNava parable in which the Lord remains aloof when a person tries to save himself or herself and only offers salvation when the person ceases to make such efforts on his or her own. VAlmIki's version also has RAma put out the bird's (right) eye with the brahma weapon. This is perhaps a mythological source for the "folk" tradition about crows having only one eye, although no such claim is recoverable from the critically edited text. The passage, in the Baroda crit. ed. is at 5. 36. 12-33. >Dear Prof. Goldman, > >Is the story of Jayanta in the form of a crow >trying to hurt Sita told in Valmiki (Sundarakanda)? >Perialvar in the Divyaprabandham and Kamban in his >Ramayanam tells this story. Folkstories explain >how the crows got only one eye from this episode. > > >Thank, SM > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. >http://invites.yahoo.com/ -- Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Fri May 26 20:22:02 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 14:22:02 -0600 Subject: Azerbaijan Hindu Fire-Temple ( Re: Zoroastrians in othe countries) In-Reply-To: <20000513011328.87288.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058821.23782.12798812145412514676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rustam Masalewala wrote: >>The first account of Baku fire-temple, owned by Hindu >>traders, is found in 17th century. >I wonder if it had any connection with Zoroastrian >religion. I would think it probably had. What I have found suggests that it was basically supported by Hindu traders from Punjab/Multan, although there is one mention of Parsees of Bombay supporting a person there. Now the Khatri traders, who have had a long presence in central Asia, are devout Hindu. They are among the extremely few non-Brahmins who have traditionally studied the Vedas. But consider this. Raja Vanabihari Kapur has written that all the major names of the Khatri clans are derived from the names of lord Sun, like Tandon is from Martanda etc. We can question his views but Mehra is indeed likely derived from "Mihr", the signature term of Shakdvipis/Bhojakas. That would suggest that they may have had some connection with Mitra (Sun) worship. They thus could represent a Vedic- Zoroastrian link. >Are there any functioning fire-temples in China? >Someone told me there may be some, but that is hard >to believe. In a way, there are. In China there is a temple (Buddhist) where a flame is always kept lit in front of the "Buddha of Light", portrayed as a bearded individual. Some think he represents Mani, founder of a religion that can be considered a branch of Zoroastrianism. The Fodo-myoo (God of fire) is worshiped at Naritasan Shinshiji temple, in form of fire. I don't know of a direct connection to Zoroastrianism. Yashwant From tlk at POST.COM Fri May 26 13:17:54 2000 From: tlk at POST.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 15:17:54 +0200 Subject: Kim Plofker Message-ID: <161227058805.23782.14315735859038761023.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 26 May 2000, Johannes Bronkhorst wrote: > Could anyone inform me about the work and whereabouts of Kim Plofker, > who seems to be working in the field of Indian mathematics? Thanks in > advance. Last I had contact with her she was at Brown University and using the e-mail: It was back in February 1999. In any case I guess Brown University should know her whereabouts if she is not there anymore. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri May 26 22:48:45 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 15:48:45 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058825.23782.17022006957376460637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My final posting on this thread. > > Be that as it may, does the > > Sankaravijaya of Madhava claim that Sankara established four mathas in > > India, one of which was Sringeri? > >What I find in the translation is that Sankara built temples for Devi in >Sringeri and Kanchi. After he ascended the throne of Omniscience, "he >left >for Badari with some of his disciples, while deputing the others to >Sringagiri and other places". This might lead to an interpretation that >Sankara established the Sringeri maTha. mAdhavIya Sankaravijaya (verses 12. 64-69) mentions a devI temple at Sringeri, but this legend is also linked to that of the wife of maNDana miSra. She is supposed to have been the referee at a debate between him and Sankara. Scholars of Sakta traditions and scholars with subaltern/feminist perspectives, take note. At the heart of a patriarchical, Brahminical tradition lies a woman, who has subsequently been deified. This connection between the SArada temple at Sringeri and maNDana miSra's wife is found in every significant hagiographic text. As far as I can see, no one has drawn a connection between this tradition and the importance of maNDana miSra as an Advaitin, in early post-Sankaran times. mAdhavIya does not say that Sankara established the devI temple at Kanchipuram. Verses 15. 4-5 say that he reformed the Tantric mode of worship that was prevalent at the Kamakshi temple there. Even the sthAnIka of the Kamakshi temple, C. Kamakoti Sastri, in his "Kamakshi Ampal stala varalARu" says that Sankara established Vedic worship in the temple that was then under Buddhist control (pauttarkaLAl Akkiramikkap paTTirunta ampAL Alayattil vaitIka muRaiyil pUcA-vitAnam tApittanar). Of course, what is "Vaidika" for these accounts is "Srividya Tantrika" for modern scholars. Clearly, all this only reflects the continued involvement of Smarta Brahmanas in the south with Sakta traditions. Note also that "Buddhist" is often interchangeable with "Tantric" in many cases. Be that as it may, as far as this Sankaravijaya text is concerned, nowhere does it say that Sankara established four mathas in India. Nowhere does it explicitly say that he established the Sringeri matha either. It remains satisfied with a generic statement (verse 16. 93) that Sankara sent his disciples to "Rishyasringasrama and other places." Assuming that the mAdhavIya Sankaravijaya is a 14th century text, there is thus zero literary evidence for the contention that Vidyaranya initiated or propagated the tradition of four mathas in the four regions of India, as a deliberate political act. The mAdhavIya does not even mention Puri as a place that Sankara visited, while Dwaraka is mentioned in a total of three verses (15. 73-75), and Badrinath in two verses (16. 93-94). And these references say nothing about his establishing centers there. It seems more important for this text that Sankara debated with Pancaratrins (Vaishnavas) at one place and converted followers of dualistic Yoga at the other place. What sort of political alliances with north Indian populations and institutions can we read into this sparsity of references to widely acknowledged centers in the north? If we are to discern historical facts from hagiographic texts and traditions, we should begin by taking their contents seriously. At the very least, without a comparative examination of other hagiographies, it seems highly premature to come to the conclusion that Hacker makes about Vidyaranya and Vijayanagara politics. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From biernack at STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri May 26 22:20:20 2000 From: biernack at STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU (Loriliai Biernacki) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 16:20:20 -0600 Subject: Pondicherry - Institut Francais d'Indologie In-Reply-To: <392AC8BE.553A6B66@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227058827.23782.893824906429964373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone proffer suggestions on how I might go about acquiring books from the series Publications de l'Institut Francais d'Indologie published in Pondicherry? Thanks, Loriliai Biernacki Loriliai Biernacki Assistant Professor Dept. of Religious Studies CB-292 University of Colorado at Boulder Boulder, CO 80309 303-735-4730 Loriliai.Biernacki at colorado.edu From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Fri May 26 17:34:21 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 19:34:21 +0200 Subject: Kabir For Hindu Temple Library? Message-ID: <161227058812.23782.11754420152106088465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Here we find the Sangh Parivar, the organisation recognised as following > the purest form of Orthodox Hinduism, Genuine orthodox Hindu leaders reject the Sangh precisely because it is so unorthodox (viz. egalitarian), vide e.g. Swami Karpatri: RSS and Hindu Dharma. The Puri Shankaracharya, whom I once interviewed, only wanted to talk to me via the Brahmin friend who had introduced me, and refused to accept a book from my Mleccha hands. A really orthodox Hindu if ever there was one, he told me he would have none of the Sangh, because in the Sangh all castes mix. But perhaps it is best if we don't pursue this point? K. Elst From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri May 26 21:01:43 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 22:01:43 +0100 Subject: Azerbaijan Hindu Fire-Temple ( Re: Zoroastrians in othe countries) Message-ID: <161227058823.23782.16770578329754703007.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > The Fodo-myoo (God of fire) is worshiped at Naritasan > Shinshiji temple, in form of fire. I don't know of a > direct connection to Zoroastrianism. The deity Fudo-myoo (= Acala Vidyaraja) is venerated by all followers of Shingon in Japan and many temples have him as their main deity but he is not the "God of Fire" -- he is merely surrounded by a nimbus of fire as are most vidyarajas in Buddhist iconography. He seems to be a variant form of Vajrapani. The old Vedic deity Agni is known to Shingon followers in Japan and is invoked in the initial portion of the homa ritual there. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat May 27 06:50:50 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 26 May 00 23:50:50 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058833.23782.7740506150120870086.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > >Considering the obvious difference in meaning here, I would appreciate some >comments on the reliability of Tapasyanda's translation. > I don't have the original text handy with me right now. I'll need time to check up on it. My earlier posting was based on my memory of that particular chapter. But yes, in general, Tapasyananda's translation is not a strict word-to-word rendering. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat May 27 04:04:56 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sat, 27 May 00 00:04:56 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058831.23782.6674152359999011866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/26/2000 5:50:13 PM Central Daylight Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > My final posting on this thread. I hope Vidyasankar and others continue to participate in this thread for some more time. > mAdhavIya does not say that Sankara established the devI temple at > Kanchipuram. Verses 15. 4-5 say that he reformed the Tantric mode of worship > that was prevalent at the Kamakshi temple there. Tapasyananda translates, "After worshipping Ramanatha at Rameswaram, the Acharya travelled through the Pandya and Chola countries and reached the city of Kanchi which shone like an ornament to the Hasti ranges. There he built a temple where he instituted worship of Devi with rituals that are in accordance with the Vedic traditionsand suited to the attainment of supreme knowledge." Considering the obvious difference in meaning here, I would appreciate some comments on the reliability of Tapasyanda's translation. Regards S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri May 26 23:23:57 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 27 May 00 00:23:57 +0100 Subject: Sad news concerning Prof Wilhelm Halbfass Message-ID: <161227058829.23782.6300936796570788157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A very sad loss indeed. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:27:08 +0200 From: Walter Slaje Subject: Wilhelm Halbfass (+ 05-26-2000) Dear Dominik, I have just been informed by Mrs Halbfass about yesterday?s (25 May) unexpected demise of Professor Wilhelm Halbfass and was asked to communicate the sad news. Since I have no access to the list from at home here, would you kindly put the information on the list? Yours, Walter ----------------------------------------------- Prof. Dr. Walter Slaje Hermann-Loens-Str. 1, D-99425 Weimar (Germany) Tel/Fax: (+49)03643-501391 (office: (+49)0345-55-23650) e-mail: slaje at t-online.de (office: slaje at indologie.uni-halle.de) From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat May 27 07:05:06 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Sat, 27 May 00 03:05:06 -0400 Subject: Apologies Message-ID: <161227058837.23782.17141786976904403938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ooops. Sorry. My turn to mess up and post a private message to Lars on the list. (I thought his message to me was private and did not check the header). Nothing incriminating fortunately! EB On Fri, 26 May 2000, Edwin Bryant wrote: > It's coming. Slowly. Witzel's paper is ready. Carl Lamberg Karlovsky > will be contributing. But we're still waiting on two or three papers. > Not everyone is as deligent as you, I'm afraid. But we decided to wait > and have a well represented volume, rather than rush. Hope all is well. > E > > > On Fri, 26 May 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Edwin Bryant [SMTP:ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU] skrev 26. mai 2000 11:08: > > > > Hello Edwin, > > > > since your name turned up .... > > > > How is the book coming along? > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Lars Martin > > > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo > > Norway > > Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > > From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Sat May 27 07:07:01 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Sat, 27 May 00 12:37:01 +0530 Subject: questions Message-ID: <161227058835.23782.5382313957869863979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> WHy is there so much self-consciousness in the comments posted on the List? Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science,Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate,K S Krishnan Marg,New Delhi110012 ph +91 11 5764064/5743227 fx 5754640 alternative e-mail rkochhar2000 at yahoo.mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT Sat May 27 12:29:59 2000 From: himal.trikha at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Himal Trikha) Date: Sat, 27 May 00 14:29:59 +0200 Subject: AW: Pondicherry - Institut Francais d'Indologie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058838.23782.2658919103034975020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Can anyone proffer suggestions on how I might go about acquiring books from >the series Publications de l'Institut Francais d'Indologie published in >Pondicherry? The snail mail adress is: Smt Anurupa Naik French Institute of Pondicherry Department of Indology P.B. 33 11, St. Louis Street Pondicherry 605 001 India Regards, Himal Trikha Institute for Indology, University of Vienna From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Sun May 28 18:55:45 2000 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK) Date: Sun, 28 May 00 10:55:45 -0800 Subject: Mythology and Symbolism of Indra In-Reply-To: <004401bfc755$ac835920$2f2c893e@default> Message-ID: <161227058840.23782.16428768329513905546.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Colleagues, I am trying to put together some bibliography which would provide as comprehensive as possible an overview of the mythology and symbolism of the God Indra--from the Vedas through Puranas, tantrism, philosophical systems, politics, speculations about Indra and indriyas, etc. This is a huge field from a rather oblique angle. I would be grateful for any suggestions. Best regards, David Lawrence Division of Humanities Hong Kong University of Science and Technology From mahipal at LANKA.CCOM.LK Sun May 28 07:22:18 2000 From: mahipal at LANKA.CCOM.LK (Mahinda Palihawadana) Date: Sun, 28 May 00 12:22:18 +0500 Subject: Mnemonics in Ancient India Message-ID: <161227058843.23782.3898588450326845373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Now that the List has been discussing the mnemonic tradition of the Vedic period, I would like to draw attention to how the Buddhists appropriated and adapted this tradition and also linked 'text' recitation to protection and blessing - some aspects of which I have discussed in a paper appearing in Recent Researches in Buddhist Studies, Essays in Honour of Professor Y. Karunadasa, ed. Bhikkhu Kuala Lumpur Dhammajoti et al, publ Y Karunadasa Fel. Comm., Colombo in collab. w/ Chi Ying Foundation, Hong Kong, 1997. Pp 493 - 515. The paper is entitled Pali Sajjhaaya and Sanskrit Svaadhyaaya: An Inquiry into the Historical Origins of Parittaana Recitation. Mahinda Palihawadana From mahipal at LANKA.CCOM.LK Sun May 28 08:18:47 2000 From: mahipal at LANKA.CCOM.LK (Mahinda Palihawadana) Date: Sun, 28 May 00 13:18:47 +0500 Subject: Mythology and Symbolism of Indra Message-ID: <161227058844.23782.5938522040780540444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 10:55 05/28/2000 -0800, David Lawrence wrote: >I am trying to put together some bibliography which would provide as >comprehensive as possible an overview of the mythology and symbolism of >the God Indra-- I have been interested in this subject ever since my Ph D dissertation (Secular Leadership in the Rgveda Period- unpublished) submitted to the University of Ceylon in 1966. The following have been published: (1) A New Approach to the Interpretation of Rgvedic Ari, O H de A Wijesekera Felicitation Vol. Peradeniya, Sri Lanka, 1970 . Pp 88-98 (2) The Indra Cult as Ideology: A Clue to Power Struggle in an Ancient Society (including a discussion of the semantics of Rgvedic ari and its socio-political background), Vidyodaya Jnl of Arts, Scc. and Letters, Volume 9 (1981) pp 37 - 112 and Vol 10 (1982) pp 1 - 59 (3)Ideological Religion, An Example from Early India, KALYANI, Jnl of Humanities & Social Scc, Kelaniya U of Sri Lanka, Vol I, Nos. 1 & 2, Oct 1982 pp 1 -23 (4) The God of War and Lavishness, State Printing Corporation, Panaluwa, Padukka, Sri Lanka 1996 (ISBN 955-610-115-2). All these deal essentially with the depiction of Indra as god of lavishness and protege of the suuris (who imitate his conduct and resist the ari who has become a hoarder of wealth). It is my belief that understanding of this depiction opens a new vista for the interpretation of the term ari which in turn is crucial to the understanding of the sociology of the RV. I find it difficult to accept that ari means der Fremdling. Mahinda Palihawadana From das at NETCOM.COM Mon May 29 03:25:42 2000 From: das at NETCOM.COM (Das Devaraj) Date: Sun, 28 May 00 20:25:42 -0700 Subject: Vaasthu Message-ID: <161227058846.23782.13140096605991186685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There seems to be quite a few books coming out on Vaasthu (also spelled Vasthu?) these days. Any particular reason for this? Because of the current popularity of Feng Shui (in the west), did somebody happen to discover Vaastu in the vedas?! - What is the original source of Vaastu? - Is there a rough consensus on the age of that work? - What does Vaastu mean (literally)? To a layperson (me) it seems close to a couple of words - one meaning physical/material object and the other meaning truth. Thanks, Das From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Mon May 29 09:23:55 2000 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Mon, 29 May 00 11:23:55 +0200 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058848.23782.18324143804124671313.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, Dr. Palaiappa answered to my letter some days ago and put a few more questions. A seminar was held in Bangalore in 1986 to celebrate the birth centenary of renowned scolar of the yore Sakaleshapura Shrikantahayya. The topic of the seminar was EARLY VIJAYANAGARA, studies in its history and culture. This subject was very dear to the veteran scholar Srikanthayya. So this topic was chosen for the seminar.The papers were piublished in 1988 by the B.M.S. Memorial Foundation; Bangalore under the general editorship of my professor Dr. G. S. Dikshit. Now coming to his next question about the vassals and relatives of Hoysala coming to serve the new rulers of Karnataka from their capital city Vijayanagar: On this subject I have published an article in the Journal ITIHAS; in late 70s. Then I have developped it more in my latest book "Vijayanagar" published by NBT; Delhi in 1999. I have never changed my views. During the rule of Harihara and Bukka there were two ministers named Madhava. Luckily their Gotrra and SUtras are mentioned in their works as well as in their inscriptions which makes our work little easier. Now the publication of Puraanasaara confirms that Madhava, the brother of Sayana first became the minister to Harihara I and then to Bukka I for a while before renouncing the GRahasthaashrama. Unfortunately I do not have Dr. Kulke's article here with me. So I cannot say either yes or no to his views. But one thing I confirm here that the KaDitas in the MaTha are to be read carefully and the contents mentioned in them have to be accepted cautiously. Dr. A.K. Shastry has worked on Shringeri PItha and KaDitas there. His works are ; A History of Sringeri published by Prasaranga, Karnataka University, Dharwar, 1982. The same is published in Kannada by the Math itself. But I do not think we will succeed in finding some written doccuments relating to the history of the Math before 1346. In early seventies I tried my best to find something while I was working for my doctoral thisis on the "Beginnings of Vijayanagar upto 1377". But I did not get any charts either on copper plates or on stones. In case anybody finds something I shall be very thankful to the person for the kind information. Thanks for your thought provoking questions. Sincerely yours Vasundhara. -----Original Message----- From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:40 PM Subject: Re: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke >Many thanks to Dr. Filliozat for the updates. But I would appreciate some >more details. > >In a message dated 5/22/2000 3:01:21 AM Central Daylight Time, >pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR writes: > >> In 1986 a seminar was held in Bangalore on the topic of Early Vijayanagara >> studies and the papers were published in 1988. Some valuable articles have >> appeared in this volume amongst which "Identity of Madhava Vidyaranya by K. >> Krishnamurthy annd Vidyaranya's Association with the Vijayanagara Empire by >> Venimadhava Shastri". In these articles both the authors have proved the >> identity of Madhava &Vidyaranya with scholarly arguments and references. > >Can you give the title of this volume? > >> In the making of modern Karnataka empire brothers Sayana and Madhava played >> a vital role under the guidance of their Guru Vidyatirthamuni who was then >> on the pontifical seat of Sharadapitha at Shringeri. > >The crucial question in this thread is the history of Sringeri maTha. Has any >new information come to light regarding this? Have you or other scholars >authenticated and analyzed the pre-Karnataka/Vijayanagara records mentioned >by Vidyasankar? Whom do you agree with on the pre-Karnataka history of >Sringeri, Kulke or Vidyasankar? > >> All the relatives and >> the vassals of defunct Hoysala kings gave their full support to the new >> rulers in their efforts of consolidation of one empire. Madhava occupied >the >> seat of the minister and the adviser to Harihara I is proved from his >> "Puranasaara" which is being published by the ORI in Mysore. > >Based on Kulke's work (p.129) you seem to be reversing your views of 1985. >Can you briefly tell us the basis of your change of view? Does this mean that >Harihara I had two ministers named Madhava? or as some others have held >Madhavamantrin and Madhava-Vidyaranya were one and the same? > >> Only a "kadita" in Shringeri matha mentions the fact the Bukka >> requested the Guru to send a letter to Vidyaranya to return from Kashi but >> it is not substantiated by the inscriptions. > >Then, are you in agreement with Kulke that the "kaDita" records held by >Sringeri maTha are not reliable? > >Thanks in advance. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon May 29 15:01:26 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 29 May 00 17:01:26 +0200 Subject: (E)address for Saverio Sani Message-ID: <161227058850.23782.10370479564897809119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody have an (email) address for Prof. Saverio Sani? Mille grazie, -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 From franz_ku at CHEERFUL.COM Tue May 30 20:57:24 2000 From: franz_ku at CHEERFUL.COM (Francesco Paolo Villani) Date: Tue, 30 May 00 21:57:24 +0100 Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) Message-ID: <161227058852.23782.7468787796015863645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm a student of Sanskrit and Tamil at the University of Pisa; I'm studying the works of Henrique Henriques, a well-known jesuit, scholar of tamil. Unfortunally it has not been easy to find books, articles and works (manuscripts and printed books) on him and of his; could someone give me further information? I thank everybody in anycase Francesco Paolo Villani From youmar at YAHOO.IT Tue May 30 22:02:11 2000 From: youmar at YAHOO.IT (youri martini) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 00:02:11 +0200 Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) Message-ID: <161227058854.23782.5677617161893818945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Attraverso il catalogo on-line della biblioteca della pontificia universita urbaniana ho trovato il seguente volume (o articolo) che ti potrebbe interessare. (http://www.puu.urbe.it/biblio_puu_urbe_it.htm) C-03g-004(07) Castets, John Fr. Enrique Enriquez, "the second column of Xavier's Indian mission" / by J. Castets. -- Trichinopoly : Indian Catholic Truth Society, 1926. 47 p. ; 19 cm. Enriquez, Enrique Missioni - India SYSNO 0026989 Saluti Youri P.s. la biblioteca effettua fotocopie e spedizioni a domicilio --- Francesco Paolo Villani ha scritto: > I'm a student of Sanskrit and Tamil at the > University of Pisa; I'm studying > the works of Henrique Henriques, a well-known > jesuit, scholar of tamil. > > Unfortunally it has not been easy to find books, > articles and works > (manuscripts and printed books) on him and of his; > could someone give me > further information? > I thank everybody in anycase > Francesco Paolo Villani ______________________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it From r_tapti at HOTMAIL.COM Wed May 31 07:47:07 2000 From: r_tapti at HOTMAIL.COM (tapti roy) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 00:47:07 -0700 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227058861.23782.5789390422077089401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I am working on popular Bengali literature in the 19th century, chap books and what could be called pulp fiction or penny literature. One of the grounds on which the British officials and some western educated Bengalis censored popular fictions was that they were erotic because of their description of the female body and their account of love. My query is what was the notion of 'erotic' in traditional Sanskrit literature. What were the permissible limits? Has any research been done on this recently? I have read some of Sushil De's works. Second, has any recent research been done on humor in Sanskrit literature, humor that has the freedom to bring liminal elements to the forefront and thereby subvert given structures. I am looking for some kind of a lineage to the all the satires and spoofs that were produced in large numbers. Once again, 'hasya ras' must have had some rules of applicability. Thanks, Tapti Roy ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 31 06:35:38 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 07:35:38 +0100 Subject: Conference announcement (fwd) Message-ID: <161227058856.23782.7329294542826346912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:31:17 -0400 From: Rolf Sinclair Subject: Conference announcement THE INSPIRATION OF ASTRONOMICAL PHENOMENA -- THIRD CONFERENCE Palermo (Sicily), Italy -- December 31, 2000-January 6, 2001 CALL FOR APPLICATIONS AND PAPERS Dear Colleague: We wish to inform you of the up-coming Third International Conference on The Inspiration of Astronomical Phenomena ("INSAP III"). This meeting will explore mankind's fascination with the sky by day and by night, which has been a strong and often dominant element in human life and culture. The conference will provide a meeting place for artists and scholars from a variety of disciplines (including Archaeology and Anthropology, Art and Art History, Classics, History and Prehistory, the Physical and Social Sciences, Mythology and Folklore, Philosophy, and Religion) to present and discuss their studies of the influences that astronomical phenomena have had on mankind. The first two meetings (Castel Gandolfo, 1994; Malta, 1999) successfully brought together for the first time people from just such a range of disciplines to address topics of common interest. Papers from the first meeting were published in "Vistas in Astronomy" (1995) and in "Leonardo" (1996), and those from the second will appear shortly in book form. These papers (described on our Website under "the First (or Second) INSAP Conference") give an idea of the range of subjects presented at these meetings. A similar publication is planned for the third meeting. The meeting will be held overlooking the Mediterranean, a few minutes from the center of Palermo, and will start with a New Year's Eve (and Millennium Eve) banquet December 31, 2000. The meeting rooms will include ample space for display (and sale) of works of art by attendees. Full information on INSAP III and on the earlier conferences, and an application form for the upcoming meeting, can be found on our Website (http://ethel.as.arizona.edu/~white/insap) or obtained from the undersigned. Attendance will be by invitation from among those applying.All presentations and discussions will be in English. This Conference is sponsored by the Palermo Observatory, the Vatican Observatory, and the Steward Observatory, and is hosted by the Palermo Observatory as part of the bicentennial of the discovery there of the first asteroid, Ceres, on the nights of January 1-3, 1801. Please circulate or post this announcement. Prof. Salvatore Serio, Palermo Observatory (Chair, Local Organizing Committee) (insap3 at oapa.astropa.unipa.it) Dr. Rolf M. Sinclair, Chevy Chase MD (International Organizing Committee) (rolf at santafe.edu) Prof. Raymond E. White, Steward Observatory (International Organizing Committee) (REWhite1933 at aol.com) From griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed May 31 07:48:04 2000 From: griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 09:48:04 +0200 Subject: Address for Eric Pirart Message-ID: <161227058859.23782.1996954673077273213.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If I may bother you all once more: does anybody have Pirart's (email) address? Thank you very much, -- Arlo Griffiths CNWS / Instituut Kern Universiteit Leiden Postbus 9515 2300 RA Leiden the Netherlands tel.: +31-71-5272979 From Eric.Robert at UM.BE Wed May 31 08:17:04 2000 From: Eric.Robert at UM.BE (Robert, Eric) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 10:17:04 +0200 Subject: Address for Eric Pirart Message-ID: <161227058863.23782.2251081765329337811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> His address at the university of Li?ge is epirart at ulg.ac.be Regards Eric Robert > -----Original Message----- > From: Arlo Griffiths [mailto:griffithsa at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL] > Sent: woensdag 31 mei 2000 9:48 > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Address for Eric Pirart > > > If I may bother you all once more: does anybody have Pirart's (email) > address? > > Thank you very much, > > > -- Arlo Griffiths > > CNWS / Instituut Kern > Universiteit Leiden > Postbus 9515 > 2300 RA Leiden > the Netherlands > > tel.: +31-71-5272979 > From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 31 16:30:17 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 12:30:17 -0400 Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) Message-ID: <161227058866.23782.33303056577802000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Several years ago, Prof. Norvin Hein's wife was trying to analyze and publish Henriques' "Arte de Lingua Malabar". Other list members from Yale may be able to tell you how to get in touch with the Heins. Regards S. Palaniappan From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed May 31 07:07:37 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 12:37:37 +0530 Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) Message-ID: <161227058857.23782.17035495016465745019.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You may like to see Teotonio R. de Souza & Charles J Borges(1992)Jesuits in India : In Historical Perspective ( Instituto Cultural de Macao & Xavier Center of Historical Research,Goa ) Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Francesco Paolo Villani To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) >I'm a student of Sanskrit and Tamil at the University of Pisa; I'm studying >the works of Henrique Henriques, a well-known jesuit, scholar of tamil. > >Unfortunally it has not been easy to find books, articles and works >(manuscripts and printed books) on him and of his; could someone give me >further information? >I thank everybody in anycase >Francesco Paolo Villani From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed May 31 16:40:04 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 12:40:04 -0400 Subject: A place in Medieval Karnataka Message-ID: <161227058868.23782.5247829483755028168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a 13th century Tamil Vaishnavite work, we come across the name "kaGkOrai" as a place in Karnataka. This could stand for kaGkOrai, kaGkOrA, kaGgOrai, kaGgOrAi, gaGkOrai, gaGKOrA, gaGgOrai, gaGgOrA, etc. I would like to locate this place more accurately. I would appreciate any help from Karanataka experts who can tell us the exact location of this place based on inscriptional or textual sources in Kannada. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed May 31 20:10:01 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 13:10:01 -0700 Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) Message-ID: <161227058877.23782.13426247217772498494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > 2) Rajamanickam, S.- Padre Henrique Henriques. In "International Conference > Seminar of Tamil Studies, vol. 2 / ed. by R. Asher. P. 520 - 527. Father Rajamanickam, SJ is probably the world's foremost expert on H. Henriques. He published several writings of Henriques meticululously with dedication. You can contact him at the quarters, the Loyola College Campus, Nungambakkam, Chennai/Madras. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From franz_ku at CHEERFUL.COM Wed May 31 19:54:05 2000 From: franz_ku at CHEERFUL.COM (Francesco Paolo Villani) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 15:54:05 -0400 Subject: address of the Heins Message-ID: <161227058872.23782.5949649583175010598.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First I'd like everybody for answering so fast to my mail. Then I'd like to ask if anybody knows how could I reach professor Hein ( from Yale, I do presume...), as his wife studied Henrique Hinriques. Thank you, Francesco Paolo Villani ----------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from Lycos at http://it.lycosmail.com From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Wed May 31 20:35:50 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 16:35:50 -0400 Subject: address of the Heins In-Reply-To: <000531155405AL.23751@webb1.iname.net> Message-ID: <161227058875.23782.12662402443710191474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >First I'd like everybody for answering so fast to my mail. > >Then I'd like to ask if anybody knows how could I reach professor >Hein ( from Yale, I do presume...), as his wife studied Henrique >Hinriques. I presume you mean Prof Norvin J Hein, and his wife Jeanne. Their address is 6 Tuttle Road Bethany CT 06524 Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH Wed May 31 15:10:10 2000 From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 17:10:10 +0200 Subject: Henrique Henripues (1520-1600) Message-ID: <161227058865.23782.2044637683989681034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Il y a trois references dans "ATLA religion database" : 1) Zupanov, Ines.- Mission linguistique. In "Archives de sciences sociales des religions", 43 : 43-65, jl - s 1998. 2) Rajamanickam, S.- Padre Henrique Henriques. In "International Conference Seminar of Tamil Studies, vol. 2 / ed. by R. Asher. P. 520 - 527. Tout de bon Francois 3) Wicki, Joseph. The confraternity of Charity of Fr Henry Henriques. In "Indian Church History Review", 1 : 3-8 Je 1967.At 21:57 30.05.2000 +0100, you wrote: >I'm a student of Sanskrit and Tamil at the University of Pisa; I'm studying >the works of Henrique Henriques, a well-known jesuit, scholar of tamil. > >Unfortunally it has not been easy to find books, articles and works >(manuscripts and printed books) on him and of his; could someone give me >further information? >I thank everybody in anycase >Francesco Paolo Villani > > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed May 31 16:43:35 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 17:43:35 +0100 Subject: Kim Plofker In-Reply-To: <392EBA0D.E5080280@cypress.com> Message-ID: <161227058870.23782.14455734766968728766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 26 May 2000, Dinesh Maheshwari wrote (about Plofker): > She was a student of Professor David Pingree and does subscribe to > Dr Pingree's school of thought regarding history of Indian Mathematics. I don't think Prof. Pingree would consider himself as having a "school of thought". He has done more than anyone else to research the prosopography and content of the jyotisa tradition, and as is perfectly natural he holds various views on various topics. But his work doesn't amount to founding a school in any normal sense of the word. > Perhaps you already know that Dr Pingree's work is a large compilation > of history of Indian mathematics and astronomy but is unfortunately not > thorough with regards to early Indian mathematics/astronomy and is > in contradiction with the deeper analysis by mathematicians and historians > like A. Siedenberg etc. Again, I think this is misleadingly expressed (at least). Pingree's opus to date is far more substantial than the word "compilation" suggests. He has edited and translated many texts, written umpteen interpretative articles, scores of books, and catalogued many thousands of manuscripts. His monumental CESS could be called a compilation, I suppose, but it contains a huge amount of original scholarship. Pingree's work is indeed thorough. If you wanted to choose one adjective to use to disparage his work, this is a particularly unfortunate one, since nobody has published work of the level of thoroughness and comprehensiveness of Pingree's CESS, Sanskrit Astral Literature, and other works. His recent analysis of the jyotisa traditions in Bikaner and elsewhere based on the Anup Sanskrit Library catalogue (in "From Babylon to Bikaner") is a staggeringly thorough tour-de-force, to take a single example. To call Seidenberg's (note spelling) work "deeper" is to do no more than express an emotional preference for the work. That is fine, but it is not scholarship. Seidenberg's work is different, not deeper. He comes to different conclusions. That's not deep, particularly. A small number of Pingree's arguments are unpopular amongst people who want to valorize the history of Indian science as a priority. But the establishing of truth in this area is a matter for very detailed and careful scholarship, carried out by experts. In his many critical editions of foundation texts, including the Yavanajataka and the Pancasiddhantika, as well as in CESS and other survey works, Pingree has himself provided much of the basic foundational evidence that future scholars need to take up these questions. It just won't do to try to denigrate Pingree's scholarship with vague, general characterizations. If you like the heat, get into the kitchen! -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From Francois.Patte at MATH-INFO.UNIV-PARIS5.FR Tue May 16 09:46:49 2000 From: Francois.Patte at MATH-INFO.UNIV-PARIS5.FR (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Patte?=) Date: Tue, 16 May 00 11:46:49 +0200 Subject: Devanagari font for LaTeX Message-ID: <161227058563.23782.12037687915251132192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote: > Dear members of the Indoloy list, > > I usually use LaTeX to prepare documents and I am thus wondering whether a > devanagari font for LaTeX is available. If so, how can I obtain it? > > Thank you very much. > > Sincerely, > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen On every CTAN site, follow: /language/devanagari/distrib/ -- Fran?ois Patte. UFR de math?matiques et informatique. 45 rue des St P?res. 75270 Paris Cedex 06 Tel: 01 44 55 35 59 -- Fax: 01 44 55 35 35 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte