From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 1 01:19:36 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 31 May 00 21:19:36 -0400 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages Message-ID: <161227058879.23782.1963271579380185639.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A friend of mine has asked me to check the etymology and meaning of "bhAv" in modern Indian languages. 1) Turner in entry 9475 in CDIAL (bhAva) uses the spelling "bhAv" for Marathi and Gujerati but uses the spelling "bhAu" for Hindi, Panjabi, Sindi, Nepali. Are "bhAu" and "bhAv" alternate spellings for the same word in Hindi (or any of the other modern Indian languages Turner lists)? 2) Turner gives meanings of "price" or "market rate" for NIA languages "bhAu" or "bhAv". Do any modern Indian languages have a meaning for "bhAv" similar to "State of being or way of thinking or feeling etc."? Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Jun 1 10:17:31 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 06:17:31 -0400 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages In-Reply-To: <20000601011936.18094.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058881.23782.4426169404188482891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The word "bhAv(a)" does mean price or value in Marathi, but it also retains an older meaning of feeling/devotion (eg. bhaava taisaa deva, "God responds according to the devotee's devotion), and it also has a meeaning of pride in expressions like "bhaav khaa.ne". Best, Madhav Deshpande On Wed, 31 May 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > A friend of mine has asked me to check the etymology and meaning of "bhAv" > in modern Indian languages. > > 1) Turner in entry 9475 in CDIAL (bhAva) uses the spelling "bhAv" for > Marathi and Gujerati but uses the spelling "bhAu" for Hindi, Panjabi, Sindi, > Nepali. Are "bhAu" and "bhAv" alternate spellings for the same word in > Hindi (or any of the other modern Indian languages Turner lists)? > > 2) Turner gives meanings of "price" or "market rate" for NIA languages > "bhAu" or "bhAv". Do any modern Indian languages have a meaning for "bhAv" > similar to "State of being or way of thinking or feeling etc."? > > > Many thanks in advance, > > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Thu Jun 1 15:07:12 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 08:07:12 -0700 Subject: An Interview with Prof David Shulman Message-ID: <161227058890.23782.15664850620360667154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All, The On-line edition of the Frontline magazine carries an interview with the well-known western scholar of South Indian studies, Prof Shulman. (Oops, is Jerusalem west?) He makes some interesting observations on Indian historiography, linguistic attitudes etc The url is http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1711/17111250.htm Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jun 1 10:57:16 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 11:57:16 +0100 Subject: Bibliography on Divehi grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058885.23782.5592136178210184136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The best starting point is probably C. H. B. Reynolds, Maldives (Clio Press: Oxford, Santa Barbara, Denver, 1993). World Bibliographical Series, vol. 158. ISBN 1-85109-076-2. It's a very comprehensive bibliography of studies up to 1993. The field doesn't move very rapidly, so you will not miss a great deal if you start with this. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Thu Jun 1 10:16:47 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 15:46:47 +0530 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages Message-ID: <161227058888.23782.16459963648207470150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > A friend of mine has asked me to check the etymology and meaning of "bhAv" > in modern Indian languages. > > 1) Turner in entry 9475 in CDIAL (bhAva) uses the spelling "bhAv" for > Marathi and Gujerati but uses the spelling "bhAu" for Hindi, Panjabi, Sindi, > Nepali. Are "bhAu" and "bhAv" alternate spellings for the same word in > Hindi (or any of the other modern Indian languages Turner lists)? > > 2) Turner gives meanings of "price" or "market rate" for NIA languages > "bhAu" or "bhAv". Do any modern Indian languages have a meaning for "bhAv" > similar to "State of being or way of thinking or feeling etc."? In Gujarati (not Gujerati) bhAv also means "emotion", "liking", "feeling", depending upon the context; In Marathi also (as far as I know) similar usage is there . Hope this helps. -- Himanshu From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Jun 1 13:57:47 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 15:57:47 +0200 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages In-Reply-To: <20000601011936.18094.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058911.23782.12503530848322944984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier schrieb am Thu, 01 Jun 2000: > A friend of mine has asked me to check the etymology and meaning of "bhAv" > in modern Indian languages. [...] > 2) Turner gives meanings of "price" or "market rate" for NIA > languages [...] 'Bhaava' has also been imported into Kannada and is a word that is often used to translate English 'emotion' (also the loanword 'bhaavane' is used in a similar sense). From this is also derived the Kannada verb 'bhaavisu-' meaning "to feel, to experience emotionally". I have never come across a usage of any of these words with a meaning such as "price" or "market rate" in Kannada. -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik, Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail: zydenbos at gmx.de From kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 1 22:02:23 2000 From: kmcgrath at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Kevin McGrath) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 18:02:23 -0400 Subject: Nick Sutton? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227058891.23782.10595239659685862488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the e-mail address of Dr. Nick Sutton in England? Thanks, KMcG. From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Jun 1 22:09:48 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 18:09:48 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058893.23782.4697689731984551192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Based on the discussions so far, the case for the present Sringeri Sankara maTha to have been founded by Sankara seems to rest on the following assumptions. 1. Transmission of authentic Sankarite texts implies transmission through ascetics. 2. Texts, whose authorship is traditionally attributed to Sankaracharya but are believed to have been authored by later persons, in reality belong to titular Sankaracaryas. 3. Presence of followers of advaita tradition implies the presence of advaita maTha establishment. 4. Ascetics have to belong to lineages beginning with Sankara. 5. Lineages have to be unbroken from Sankara. 6. Lineages will settle down at some spots over a period of a few centuries. The first five assumptions are not necessarily valid. The sixth is irrelevant because it has not been shown convincingly that the lineages have existed continuously from the time of Sankara. If one cannot show that the lineages have continued to exist for a few centuries (prior to 1346 AD), the question whether they will settle down is irrelevant. Let us take the take the first assumption. The inscriptional evidence points to possible transmission of advaitic texts through householders. One manuscript lists a householder as the author of Saundaryalahari. According to Srivaishnavite tradition, naJjIyar, before he became a Srivaishnava, was an adavaitin householder (whose name, coincidentally, was mAdhava) who was defeated in a scholarly debate by parAzarabhaTTar. Based on the vaishnavite tradition of guruparamparaprabhavam of 13th century, the congregation of mAdhava in Karnataka was the one to be compared with the congregation led by the Srivaishnavite guru parAzarabhaTTar at Srirangam. The fact that parAzarabhaTTar goes from Srirangam to Karnataka for a debate with mAdhava shows that it was mAdhava who was the preeminent advaitin to challenge and defeat at that time. (*The text does not mention any ascetic advaita establishment in Karnataka of 13th century.*) This also supports the possibility that the advaita texts could have been transmitted through householders without any dependence on the ascetics. This serves to sever the linkage between the ascetics and the availability of genuine Sankara texts. (to be continued) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Jun 1 22:35:09 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 18:35:09 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058895.23782.16052239572244513355.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If the attribution of texts to Adi Sankara is not reliable in many cases, why should one believe that they are authored by any 'Sankaracarya' at all? All of them could have been spuriously attributed to Sankaracarya. For instance, there have been multiple auvaiyar, kapilar, kallATar, agattiyar (agastya), etc. whose works are found in Tamil literature. Attribution of a later text to an earlier famous personality or a totally mythic personality has been very common in India. In a similar context related to Agastya, K. N. Sivaraja Pillai quotes Mahamahopadhyaya S. Kuppuswamy Sastry as saying the following in his introduction to Part II of Vol. II of the Descriptive Catalogue of the Oriental Manuscripts Library, Madras: "The name of Agastya or Ahattiyar in Tamil has to be specially mentioned as the most prolific writer on these subjects (Alchemy, Medicine, Yogam or the Siddhars). Who this Agastiyar is, to whom so many works are attributed, cannot be stated. He does not seem to be the same as the well-known Agastiyar, who is said to have systematized the Tamil language and wrote the First Tamil Grammar. In all probability works written by different persons at different periods of time seem to have been attributed to Ahattiyar to invest them with dignity and antiquity, but the language used in many of these works is very commonplace and betrays them in their true colour as later compositions."(As I have argued elsewhere, even Agastya, the Tamil grammarian, was most probably a mythical person.) In the present case, when the author of a work like Saundaryalahari is claimed to be Sankaracarya, one cannot simply take the name at face value. It could have been authored by an x while being attributed to Sankaracarya. After all, we have at least one source according to which author was someone other than Sankaracarya. Given the prestige commanded by the name Sankaracarya, it is possible that it was in fact authored by a householder. But due to the prestige of Sankara's name, the attribution to Sankara gained wider acceptance resulting in more manuscripts being produced with Sankara's name. One cannot deduce from this that the name Sankaracarya implies a titular Sankaracarya which implies the existence of a maTha. (to be continued) Regards S. Palaniappan From Kumara.Henadeerage at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Jun 1 10:43:03 2000 From: Kumara.Henadeerage at ANU.EDU.AU (Deepthi Kumara Henadeerage) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 00 20:43:03 +1000 Subject: Bibliography on Divehi grammar Message-ID: <161227058883.23782.16570186435657974654.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I appreciate if someone could give me some (recent) references for Divehi syntax. Also I would like to get to know some scholars who have worked on, or has interests in Divehi. Thanks in advance, Kumara ______________________________k u m a r a h e n a d e e r a g e_______ Kumara.Henadeerage at anu.edu.au www.anu.edu.au/linguistics/sinhala/ Linguistics __________________________________________Australian National University From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 2 15:12:41 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 00 08:12:41 -0700 Subject: Kim Plofker Message-ID: <161227058897.23782.5085161563348820288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---Dr. Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Pingree's opus to date is far more substantial than the > word "compilation" suggests. Have seen persons belonging to the school of IE langauages originating in India quote Seidenberg's name often. Parallels works of Iravatham Mahadevan and Asko Parpola being called as "compilations". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jun 2 16:50:49 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 00 12:50:49 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058899.23782.6198342037937848277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When Madhva broke from advaita tradition, it is possible he was interacting with adherents of advaita. That does not mean that they were part of a maTha. (As Zydenbos asked, do we have any evidence that Madhva broke from a maTha?) If that were the case, then should we not assume that when Ramanuja broke from yAdavaprakAza, there was a maTha in Kanchi in the 11th century? Even with the ascetics mentioned in the 13th century Pandyan inscription, it does not mean their lineage has to be traced to Sankara. The lineages in reality could have begun much later than Sankara but could claim to go back to him. When teacher-disciple linkages can be established as between nandi and meykaNTAr of the saiva tradition, why not between Sankara and Vidyasankara? The presence of lineages does not imply their continuity. In fact, without real continuity, creating a myth of continuity is easier when the members of the 'lineage' are wandering ascetics. It is simply difficult to check the veracity of their stories. It is when they set up a permanent establishment and try to create an origin myth, it leads to questions like the ones we are grappling with. As for the seal of Vidyasankara, Rigopoulos says that one side of the seal contains the impression of a boar, while the reverse shows the impression of Sri Vidyasankara. Unless the seal mentions the Sringeri maTha affiliation for this Vidyasankara, one cannot assume that the case for Sringeri maTha existing in the 13th century is proven. Does the Sringeri maTha use the boar sign as its emblem? Finally, let us consider three Tamil texts of the 13th century. They are the saiva text, tiruviLaiyATal purANam by nampi, the advaita text, paramArtta tarican2am by paTTan2Ar, and the vaishnava text, ARAyirappaTi guruparamparAprabhAvam by pin2pazakiya perumAL jIyar. The vaishnava text which deals with the lineage of teachers does not mention any Sankara maTha. In the prefatory section, the advaita text praises kOvindamAmun2ivan2 (Govindabhagavatpada) in one verse followed by Sankarabhagavatpada in the next verse. It does not praise any head of an advaita maTha. Compare this omission against what we find in recent times. (to be continued) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jun 2 17:02:19 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 00 13:02:19 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058901.23782.2111058700168605307.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many books and wedding invitations of 20th century seek the blessing of the Kanchi Sankaracarya. Even an academic publication, "MM. Professor Kuppuswami Sastri Birth-Centenary Commemoration Volume- Part II" of the Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute edited by S. S. Janaki (1985) praises Sankara, the Kanchi maTha's Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati, Jayendra Sarasvati, and Vijayendra Sarasvati. Is this simply a modern behavior? Is there any evidence in the Tamil tradition showing that such praising of the leader of a maTha one is affiliated with existed in the 13th century? Yes. The tiruviLaiyATal purANam by nampi praises nampi's spiritual teacher vin2Ayakan2 who was in turn a disciple of veNkATan2 of mALikai maTha of Chidambaram. Given this, the absence of praise of any Sankarite jagadguru in paramArtta tarican2am, the first advaita text in Tamil, is significant indeed. A month ago, before I read Kulke's article, Tapasyananda's translation of Madhaviya Sankaravijaya, and Tamil Ilakkiya Varalaru , I had accepted the view of the proponents of the theory that Sankara established four maThas at Sringeri, Puri, Dwaraka, and Badrinath and that the claim of Kanchi that it was also founded by Sankara had no validity. Now, it looks as if what Kanchi did later was qualitatively not different from that done by Sringeri and other maThas but only a few centuries earlier. Madhaviya Sankaravijaya seems to have taken stories from different religious traditions and woven them into a hagiography of Sankara. For instance, the motif of Sankara asking for a bhiksha of debate seems to be modeled after the Srivaishnavite parAzara bhaTTar asking for a bhiksha of debate from mAdhava, the future naJjIyar. (Or do we have any Buddhist or Jain precursors for this motif?) Similarly, Sankara's life of 32 years seems to be simply twice the life span of 16 years of puranic Markandeya. . Given this nature of this text, it looks as if we really do not have much reliable biographical information about Sankara. I wonder how professional historians could base any historical conclusions about Sankara from this text. Also, discounting what Sankaravijaya says, is there any internal evidence in the advaita texts showing that Suresvara, Padmapada, Hastamalaka, and Todaka were indeed Sankara's direct disciples? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 2 22:03:45 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 00 15:03:45 -0700 Subject: Questions of Transliteration Message-ID: <161227058904.23782.2520180246785949431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could you kindly indulge my very rudimentary question? I am getting mixed signals from ?reputable sources? concerning the correct transliteration of certain Sanskrit words. This concerns the use of the Sanskrit ?n? and/or ?m? and the proper placement of the under and over dot. The terms in point are: 1) sannyas / sa.nnyaas ? -- (i.e., ?renunciate?) 2) sa.nkhya / sa.mkhya ? -- (re. the philosophical school). With thanks. Ven Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From A.Fort at TCU.EDU Fri Jun 2 20:36:14 2000 From: A.Fort at TCU.EDU (Fort, Andrew) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 00 15:36:14 -0500 Subject: Pancadasi Message-ID: <161227058902.23782.3629712342677060210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am beginning to look at the relationship of cid, cidabhasa, and vrittis in the Pancadasi of Bharatitirtha-Vidyaranya, and was wondering if any list members knew of anyone who had done previous work on this or related topics (other than T. M. P. Mahadevan). Thanks. Andy Fort Andrew O. Fort, Professor of Religion TCU Box 298100 Fort Worth TX 76129 a.fort at tcu.edu (817) 257-6448 From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jun 2 23:35:42 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 00 16:35:42 -0700 Subject: Pancadasi Message-ID: <161227058907.23782.3975094880103171177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A number of commentaries on the Pancadasi have appeared within this century, both in Sanskrit and in various Indian languages. One particularly good one is the Chaukhamba publication (1987) with the commentary of Narayana Ramacharya Kavyatirtha and Swami Maheswarananda Giri (Mt. Abu). The text has been handled from a traditional cum critical approach, with a careful study of the manuscripts. Its title page refers to vishama-sthala-TippaNI-pAThAntara, and this is fully borne out in the work. The only English language texts that I'm aware of, other than TMP Mahadevan's work, are the translation by Swami Swahananda (Ramakrishna Math) and the translation plus notes by Swami Jnanananda Bharati (previously R. Krishnaswami Aiyar, published posthumously in 1983 by Sri Abhinava Vidyateertha Educational Trust, Madras). I haven't read the latter, but the author is sure to have discussed cid and cidAbhAsa in some detail. One of his other favorite texts was the Yogavasishtha, which he condensed and rearranged. He has paid particular attention to the concepts of cit, citta and cidAkA;sa in YV, so this would not have escaped his attention in his notes on Pancadasi. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 3 12:38:51 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 00 05:38:51 -0700 Subject: Hindukadesa Message-ID: <161227058909.23782.5877268165167043108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am intrigued by a reference to "Hindukadesa" by John Guy (Victoria & Albert Museum, London) in his description of a Jain manuscript (c.1400) recounting the exploits of a Jain monk named Kalaka. Hindukadesa was invaded in the first century B.C.E., according to Guy, by a people from Central Asia--the Sahi (see The Perpetual Liberators: Jain Art from India by Pratapaditya Pal et al 1994: 203). What is the etymology of Hinduka in the above context? Were the Sahi subsequently "Hinduized?" Because my understanding is that the Sahi dynasty, which ruled what is now Afhganistan, was the last Hindu dynasty to be converted to Islam in that part of the world. Shrinivas Tilak ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jun 4 13:46:03 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 00 06:46:03 -0700 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages Message-ID: <161227058913.23782.10542573102038512150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< 'Bhaava' has also been imported into Kannada and is a word that is often used to translate English 'emotion' (also the loanword 'bhaavane' is used in a similar sense). From this is also derived the Kannada verb 'bhaavisu-' meaning "to feel, to experience emotionally". I have never come across a usage of any of these words with a meaning such as "price" or "market rate" in Kannada. >>> Cologne OTL entry: pAvan2ai 1. imagination, fancy; 2. clear understanding; 3. a kind of mental effort or reflection, one of pan1ca-kantam , q.v.; 4. religious meditation; 5. subject of contemplation; 6. likeness, similitude; 7. representation; symbol; 8. dissimulation, imitation; 9. manners, deportment, carriage; 10. an upanis2ad, one of 108. There is a famous song of Auvaiyar where she talks of a turkey (then a recent import) trying to imitate and dance like a peacock. Here the verb "pAvittal" means "to imitate" (similar to kannada "bhaavisu"), "kAn2a mayil ATak kaNTirunta vAn2kOzi tAn2um atuvAkap pAvittu ..." However, in Jaffna Tamil, "pAvittal" = to use/to apply/to be used etc. Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jun 4 13:56:52 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 00 06:56:52 -0700 Subject: Bronze age Indus Message-ID: <161227058916.23782.2444684523845632825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The latest issue of National Geographic (June 2000) has a cover article on the Indus civilization which mentions specifically about some linguists thinking Tamil as that culture's language. I did not see Sanskrit or any other language mentioned in that context. Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sun Jun 4 14:58:52 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 00 10:58:52 -0400 Subject: Shankaracharya traditions Message-ID: <161227058917.23782.10329421667064361743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 5/23/2000 8:50:14 AM Central Daylight Time, A.Fort at TCU.EDU writes: > I've been following the discussion of Vidyaranya, Shringeri, and > Shankaracharyas with some interest, and would like to urge someone, either > for or post Ph. D., to take on a serious comparative study of the histories > of the Shringeri and Kanchi pithas (and their rivalry), using both textual > resources and on the ground interviews. William Cenkner made a start at > this, but there is much more to do. All this would mean is some mastery of > Sanskrit, Tamil, Kannada, interviewing skills, and about five years of one's > life! Andy, Can you describe what level of language proficiency you have in mind when you say "some mastery of Sanskrit, Tamil, Kannada"? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From n.mohkamsing at WORLDONLINE.NL Sun Jun 4 18:49:28 2000 From: n.mohkamsing at WORLDONLINE.NL (mohkamsing) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 00 20:49:28 +0200 Subject: Pancadasi Message-ID: <161227058919.23782.16363897440968699895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Andrew, You may also see Dr. (mrs.) Shakuntala Punjani's Pancadashi: A Critical Study. Delhi: Parimal Publications, 1985. I wonder whether she adds anything beyond T. M. P. Mahadevan's study. Narender Mohkamsing Leiden, The Netherlands From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Mon Jun 5 04:53:51 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 00 22:53:51 -0600 Subject: Hindukadesa In-Reply-To: <20000603123851.64755.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058921.23782.17323280689589342430.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrinivas Tilak wrote: >Were the Sahi subsequently "Hinduized?" Because my understanding >is that the Sahi dynasty, which ruled what is now Afhganistan, was >the last Hindu dynasty to be >converted to Islam in that part of the world. The Shahis defeated by Mahmud of Gazana are called "Hindu Shahis" by Alberuni because they were of Indian origin as opposed to the predecessors termed "Turk Shahis" (who were not Muslim). The terms Hindu/Turk here are used in ethnic sense. The (Hindu) Shahis opposed Mahmud bitterly, and after their defeat many Shahi princes fled to Kashmir. Incidentally there are some families in Pakistan today who claim descent from the Hindu Shahis. "Hindukadesha" could be related to region where Hindko is spoken. Yashwant From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Mon Jun 5 13:35:21 2000 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 00 09:35:21 -0400 Subject: e-mail for Dr. S.S. Gupta? In-Reply-To: <20000603123851.64755.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058925.23782.1331198267444375403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone out there happen to know if there is an e-mail address for Dr. S.S. Gupta, Asst. Superintending Archaeologist for Museums at Amaravati (Guntur District, AP)? Thanks Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 Ph#: (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 5 13:19:18 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 00 14:19:18 +0100 Subject: [Advertisement] Sanskrit Position at SOAS and UCL Message-ID: <161227058923.23782.4213450981447748036.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:27:51 +0100 Lectureship in Sanskrit and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics Organisation: University of London Location: London Date posted: May 29 2000 Deadline: Jun 30 2000 Applications are invited for a Lectureship in Sanskrit and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics to be held jointly in the Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and in the Department of Greek and Latin of University College London. Salary: ?17238 to ?30065 From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jun 5 18:59:38 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 00 14:59:38 -0400 Subject: Urdu Conference - CFP Message-ID: <161227058928.23782.251998337151189677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following conference announcement and call for papers is being posted to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact organizers directly for any further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai -------------- Urdu Scholarship in Transnational Perspective Call for Papers On September 28-30, 2001, the Southern Asian Institute at Columbia University will host an international conference in honor of retiring Professor C. M. Naim of the University of Chicago. The occasion will publicly recognize Prof. Naim's contributions to Urdu and South Asian studies as a teacher, scholar, translator, and man of gracious ways and liberal views. It will also provide an opportunity to reflect retrospectively on the expansion of transnational, interdisciplinary scholarship based in Urdu-language sources in the United States, Europe, India, and Pakistan over the last forty years. The array of scholarly presentations will reassert the centrality of Urdu, defined inclusively and through its plural contexts, as a tool of knowledge in the production of a wide-ranging and influential body of research. The conference seeks to bring together social scientists and humanists who have examined the cultural histories, social and political debates, and literary developments in north India, Pakistan, and the global community of Urdu speakers. Prof. Naim's engagement with historians, anthropologists, and political scientists as well as scholars of literature, language, religion and other subjects will be reflected in the selection of papers for inclusion in the program. The best of the collected papers will be published as a scholarly volume by a major university press, and therefore no previously published work or work already submitted for publication will be accepted. Papers are invited that present original findings and new perspectives. Presentations are also welcome from translators, publishers, editors, educators, and administrators who work in the Urdu field. Proposals may be submitted for organized panels, roundtables, or individual papers. Each proposal should consist of a 250-word abstract as well as the name of the contributor or contributors, together with institutional affiliation, address, phone number, and e-mail address. The deadline for submission of abstracts is August 15, 2000. Selection of papers will be made and presenters notified by October 1, 2000. Completed papers will be due August 15, 2001, approximately six weeks before the conference. Travel assistance will be offered for leading scholars from South Asia, pending the outcome of fundraising efforts. United States and Europe-based participants are expected to finance their own travel from institutional or personal sources. A small block of rooms has been reserved in East Campus Housing at Columbia University for the duration of the conference. Gratis accommodation will be offered to a limited number of presenters on the basis of financial need. Other paper presenters may avail of subsidized rates for these rooms or for rooms in hotels with which Columbia has contractual arrangements for accommodating visitors. The conference expects to host a dinner reception and provide meals during panel sessions. Registration fees will be kept to a minimum. To submit a proposal for a paper, panel, or roundtable, please e-mail abstracts (no attachments) to: Dr. Kathryn Hansen Chair of the Organizing Committee kghansen at aol.com or send hard copy to: Dr. Philip Oldenburg Southern Asian Institute 420 West 118th Street, MC 3334 New York, NY 10027 To make inquiries or add your name to an e-mail list for further announcements, send a message to Ezra Kover, ek527 at columbia.edu ANNOUNCEMENT WEBPAGE: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/conf/9.01Urdu-cfp.html From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 5 16:34:56 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 00 17:34:56 +0100 Subject: [Advertisement] more details on the SOAS/UCL Sanskrit job Message-ID: <161227058927.23782.2127861217746512288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:11:29 +0100 From: William Radice SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES, University of London & UNIVERSITY COLLEGE LONDON Lectureship in Sanskrit and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics Vacancy 00/35 Applications are invited for a Lectureship in Sanskrit and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics to be held jointly in the Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and in the Department of Greek and Latin of University College London. The key responsibilities will include teaching in Sanskrit language and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics and research in one or both of those fields. An ability to teach Sanskrit literature and/or Linear B would also be desirable. Applicants should have completed or be very close to completing, a PhD on a relevant subject, and provide evidence of an ability to produce research of a high quality. The successful candidate will be expected to teach Sanskrit at beginners' as well as at more advanced levels, and to teach the comparative philology and history of the ancient Greek and Latin languages. The appointment will be for five years initially from 1 September 2000. It will be made on Lecturer A scale (?17,238-?22,579 p.a.) or Lecturer B scale (?23,521-30,065 p.a.), depending on qualifications and experience, plus London Allowance, currently ?2,134p.a. Membership of USS will be available. An application form and job description may be obtained from the Personnel Office, School of Oriental and African Studies, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H 0XG (Tel: 020 7898 4144; Fax: 020 7898 4149; e-mail address: website: . Overseas applicants may apply by letter supported by a full CV and the names, addresses, telephone and fax numbers of three referees. Closing date: Friday 30 June 2000 SOAS and UCL are equal opportunities employers and welcome applications from people with disabilities, ethnic minorities and women. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 5 21:45:58 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 00 17:45:58 -0400 Subject: Thank you Re: Etymology of bhAv Message-ID: <161227058930.23782.17926675041546563752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to: Madhav Deshpande, Robert Zydenbos, Venkatraman Iyer and H.B. Dave for their replies to my query about etymology and meaning of Bhav in modern Indian languages. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From surya42 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 6 07:36:16 2000 From: surya42 at HOTMAIL.COM (Suryanarayana Korada) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 07:36:16 +0000 Subject: Technical Terminology of Shastraic Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227058934.23782.16665944519200290990.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, In the Shastras and darshanas of Sanskrit, one comes across various technical terms. each Shastra has its own technical terminology which it defines. It is often noticed that the same technical term has been employed in the different knowledge domains with different connotations. For example, the term upasarga stands for 'semantic modifier' in Vyakarana; in Ayurveda, it stands for 'the ailment that gets imposed on a basic disease, a secondary ailment' ; in Yoga-Sutras it stands for 'impediment' or 'obstruction'. My question is, what are the dictionaries or reference works that one can refer to in this regard. I will be grateful for any information in this matter. Thanking You in advance. Suryanarayana Korada, School of Computer& Systems Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi- 110 067. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From surya42 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 6 08:27:12 2000 From: surya42 at HOTMAIL.COM (Suryanarayana Korada) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 08:27:12 +0000 Subject: Technical Terminology of Shastraic Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227058936.23782.14438870482690177219.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, In the Shastras and darshanas of Sanskrit, one comes across various technical terms. each Shastra has its own technical terminology which it defines. It is often noticed that the same technical term has been employed in different knowledge domains with different connotations.For example, the term upasarga stands for 'semantic modifier' in Vyakarana ; in Ayurveda, it stands for 'the ailment that gets imposed on a basic disease, a secondary ailment'; in Yoga Sutras, it stands for 'impediment' or 'obstruction'. My question is, what are the dictionaries or reference works that one can refer to in this regard. I will be grateful for any information on this matter. Thanking you in advance. Suryanarayana Korada, School of Computer & Systems Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi - 110 067. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Tue Jun 6 15:36:48 2000 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 08:36:48 -0700 Subject: Ramayana Workshop At UBC Message-ID: <161227058942.23782.11669809745067090994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 19-23, 2000 A workshop on the Ramayana is scheduled at the University Centre at the University of British Columbia. Organized by the Programme in Intercultural Studies in Asia at the Institute of Asian Research, the workshop is being sponsored by the Peter Wall Institute of Advanced Studies, and will bring together a group of UBC scholars and colleagues from Europe, India, Thailand and the U.S.A. On June 20, 21, 22, music and dance performances relating to the Ramayana will be presented in the evening at the Museum of Anthropology. The description of the workshop follows: MEDIATING CULTURES: THE FOUNDATIONAL ROLE OF THE RAMAYANA IN SOUTH AND SOUTHEAST ASIAN SOCIETIES As one of the cornerstones of the social and political life of South and Southeast Asia, the Ramayana has influenced public life through centuries both as a verbal and a visual artefact. This workshop is aimed at understanding the role of the Ramayana in the social and cultural life of south and southeast Asia from the earliest times to the modern, and the reasons--historical and social--for its cultural and ideological viability. The outcome of the workshop, including its edited proceedings and recommendations, will thus be a guideline for mapping the cultural space of the Ramayana by using the tools of several disciplines. Please visit our web site: www.iar.ubc.ca/ramayana for the detailed programme. Enquiries may be made by email to Mandakranta Bose, Director of the Centre for India and South Asia Research, and of the Programme in Intercultural Studies in Asia at: mbose at interchange.ubc.ca or either to amanmann2 at hotmail.com or gordand at interchange.ubc.ca. Everyone is welcome to join the sessions beginning on June 20-23 but seats are limited. To register, please call Karen Jew at (604) 822-2629 or email her at kjew at interchange.ubc.ca. The registration fee is $10 per day including light refreshments. For evening performances, please contact the Museum of Anthropology at (604) 822- 5978. ======================================= Karen Jew Institute of Asian Research The University of British Columbia 251-1855 West Mall, C.K. Choi Building Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z2 Tel: (604) 822-2629 Fax: (604) 822-5207 From venkitesh at ETH.NET Tue Jun 6 04:22:30 2000 From: venkitesh at ETH.NET (Venkiteshwaran) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 09:52:30 +0530 Subject: [Advertisement] Sanskrit Position at SOAS and UCL Message-ID: <161227058932.23782.5543625900657440428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sir, i would like to apply for the post of Lecturership in Sanskrit referred to in the mail forwarded to me Kindly send the details (application form, its source etc) at the earliest thanking you Dr. K Muthulekshmy ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 6:49 PM Subject: [Advertisement] Sanskrit Position at SOAS and UCL ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:27:51 +0100 Lectureship in Sanskrit and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics Organisation: University of London Location: London Date posted: May 29 2000 Deadline: Jun 30 2000 Applications are invited for a Lectureship in Sanskrit and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics to be held jointly in the Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and in the Department of Greek and Latin of University College London. Salary: ?17238 to ?30065 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jun 6 10:06:53 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 11:06:53 +0100 Subject: Forwarded message Message-ID: <161227058938.23782.15125901490763190159.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:52:27 +0530 From: Swantham Subject: Posting Dear Sir, I am glad to inform you that I have been appointed as Director of the Centre for Vedanta Studies of our University. I need the blessings and cooperation of all Indology friends for developing the centre. Scholars coming to India are welcome to the Centre.Joint ventures are also welcome. Need-based short term can be arranged. I have an ambitious idea of compiling a verse-quarter index of entire Sanskrit (Samskrtapadyapaadakosa). I don't know any book of this kind exists or not.All suggestions, including those for fund raising, are sought. Please circulate the matter among list members. With regards Dr.K.Maheswaran Nair Hon.Director Centre for Vedanta Studies University of Kerala Kariavattom P.O.,Kerala,India,695 581 E-mail The Hindustan Times, New Delhi, is looking for someone who can document the details of all RITUALS & RITES OF PASSAGE followed in all Indian religions. Exciting remuneration and promotion assured. Please contact me at subhamoyd at go4icorp.com or subhamoy at hindustantimes.com as soon as possible. Thank you! From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 6 23:54:29 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 16:54:29 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058946.23782.962297730810163026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I was trying not to inflict myself upon the list more than absolutely necessary. And I'm not sure about the level of broad interest in this issue. I presume there are at least two or three list members who are following this thread, other than Palaniappan and I. Anyway, I'll try to keep my response brief. Palaniappan questions the following points - >Based on the discussions so far, the case for the present Sringeri Sankara >maTha to have been founded by Sankara seems to rest on the following >assumptions. I am not making a hard argument for the proposition that the Sringeri matha was intentionally founded by Sankara. That is what tradition says, and I'm content to leave it at that. More about tradition and history later. >1. Transmission of authentic Sankarite texts implies transmission through >ascetics. To some extent, this is true. Take the case of Vacaspati Misra, the first significant post-Sankaran householder author in the tradition. There is sufficient reason to believe that he was unaware of Sankara's commentaries on TU and CU. There are other solid reasons to assert the authenticity of both these texts, so that it is not appropriate to question these texts based on their being unfamiliar to Vacaspati. I have discussed this in detail in my paper on the prakaraNa text named pancIkaraNa, to appear in Philosophy East and West, July 2001. If any list member is sufficiently interested in this issue and can't wait for so long, I'd be happy to send a draft of my manuscript for their personal use. However, the importance of the monastic tradition is an issue that is not limited to an argument of textual transmission. It also has to do with the creation of new texts. Take for example, pre-Vidyaranya authors and texts like sarvajnAtman (saMkshepa-SArIraka), vimuktAtman (ishTa-siddhi), jnAnaghana (tattva-Suddhi), prakASAtman (pancapAdikA vivaraNa), citsukha (tattva-prakASikA), sukhaprakASa (commentary on citsukha's work), anubhUtisvarUpa (prakaTArtha vivaraNa?) and Anandagiri (numerous TIkAs and vivaraNas), who consciously place themselves in the Sankaran tradition. All these authors were saMnyAsins. Even jnAnottama miSra, the author of candrikA (commentary on sureSvara's naishkarmya-siddhi), is said to have got his name in honor of his father's guru, who was a paramahaMsa parivrAjaka. Culturally and anthropologically speaking, it is perhaps even more important to look at the central importance of saMnyAsa for Sankara. Open his commentary on the gItA on a random page. There is a greater than 90% chance that you will find the phrases sarva-karma-saMnyAsa, or saMyag-darSana, or jnAna-nishThA. The latter two phrases are explicitly associated by Sankara himself with paramahaMsa parivrAjakas, e.g. his commentary on gItA 3.3. And take the instances where he talks of the importance of sampradAya, sampradAya-vit(s) and sampradAya-kartA(s). I would be greatly surprised if those who were impressed with Sankara's teaching and became his followers did not internalize this insistent emphasis on saMnyAsa and sampradAya. Again, my only argument is that one does not have to wait till the 14th century for monastic lineages to become important. The historicity of the Sringeri matha and Vidyaranya's contribution to it are irrelevant for this perspective. >2. Texts, whose authorship is traditionally attributed to Sankaracharya but >are believed to have been authored by later persons, in reality belong to >titular Sankaracaryas. How else? For this part of the textual argument, you really need to get away from the Saundaryalahari and the various devotional hymns, and concentrate on issues surrounding the bhAshyas and prakaraNa granthas. The vast majority of the latter set of texts show increasing signs of post-Sankaran influences, but in every one of them, saMnyAsa and its related doctrines/practices remain central. For example, prabodhasudhAkara shows clear evidence of having been written in response to the Radha-Krishna based Vaishnava devotionalism in north India. But saMnyAsa and the generic Yogic practices associated with it remain central to it. You have to treat manuscript evidence critically, but that doesn't mean that you throw it all out, and postulate that each one of these texts was written by some xyz, who was not considered a Sankaracarya, even by his own followers, and even if it was only as a matter of honorific usage. Saundaryalahari is the only text where a different author is credited in one set of manuscripts. All the other texts attributed to Sankara are credited either to Sankaracarya or to Sankara Bhagavatpada. You cannot generalize about the creation and transmission of texts based on one exception. >3. Presence of followers of advaita tradition implies the presence of >advaita >maTha establishment. Modify this to - the continued presence of followers of the advaita tradition in a particular place makes it likely for matha establishment(s) to develop in that place. This is an expectation, but perhaps, an expectation that if such institutions existed, one should find records of them is misplaced. The hard fact remains that before the 14th century records relating to Vidyaranya and Sringeri, not a single record has been found of ANY advaita matha, ANYWHERE in India. If this means that no such institutions developed, between the 8th-9th century and the 14th century, one has to ask what was so special about the circumstances of the 14th century to spark a proliferation of these mathas. The answers cannot be limited to south India and Vijayanagara, as these mathas are present all over the country. A matha is not a temple. One needs to have a good idea of what constitutes a disciple lineage, what constitutes a matha, what sort of Brahmin society was congenial to the development of Advaita as a tradition, how these have developed over the centuries, and how mathas are different from other Brahminical institutions like a temple or a Veda Pathashala. Also note that various Brahminical religious concerns that are generically called "Advaita" are not necessarily Sankaran. For some, Advaita simply means that Siva and Vishnu are one. For others, it means that Siva and Sakti are one, or that Vishnu and Lakshmi are inseparable. A third group is content with a nebulous "all is one" approach. A fourth group will even talk of simultaneous bhukti and mukti, which is as non-Sankaran as it gets. When one talks of the Sankaran Advaita tradition, one needs to focus on the highly intellectual tradition exemplified by the Advaita texts and the highly monastic tradition exemplified by most of the authors of these texts. And again, I need to reiterate, focussing only on the few well known matha institutions does not convey the entire picture. The reality on the ground is that there are hundreds of advaita mathas all over India, with varying traditional dates of origin, but these data have not been studied at all. By and large, I don't think people have been all that thoroughly mistaken or deliberately deceptive about themselves. In the few instances where this is significant, e.g. the contemporary Kanchi Matha, there are glaring internal contradictions, which leap to the eye at once, and which give the game away. But then, you could say that I am biased, so please look at the primary data yourself. There is a wealth of information lying unused and unanalyzed. Only, don't come to conclusions without looking at the primary data fully. >4. Ascetics have to belong to lineages beginning with Sankara. No. Ascetics can have lineages not including Sankara, and going back even to others before him. There is a specific example - that of the Kavale Matha in Goa, and its spin-off, the Chitrapur Matha in Shirali (southern Karnataka), associated with Saraswat Brahmans in the south. These lineages include Gaudapada and Govinda, but they do not include Sankara. They are very careful to list a different disciple of Govinda in their lists. No doubt there are other such lineages, but you should also note that in general, a saMnyAsin is only required to remember the names of three generations of gurus prior to himself. This is parallel to the householder offering funerary rituals only up to his great- grandfather. >5. Lineages have to be unbroken from Sankara. Not always. Those lineages that are not continuous have been honest enough to acknowledge the break(s), e.g. the Badrinath matha. And again, once you distinguish between the officially reported lineage of an institution from the teacher-disciple lineage of its heads, you get a good idea of the sense in which continuity is maintained or lost. The tradition itself is aware of this, in its distinction between the dIkshA guru and the sikshA guru. >6. Lineages will settle down at some spots over a period of a few >centuries. > And they will also proliferate, won't they? Every religious leader of any note gathers at least a handful of followers, of whom at least one will take a leadership role when that leader dies. If there are two or three such contendors for leadership, the followers will simply branch off into two or three factions. Each faction will end up developing its own institutions and branches. How successful the leadership in each generation is in consolidating the inherited tradition and adding to it determines whether the tradition survives, and in what form. Certainly, Sankara was a man of sufficiently great importance for his disciples and his grand-disciples, and their disciples in turn, to create a network of lineages and institutions. Of course, householders are important, for no saMnyAsin appears out of thin air. He has to be born to and initially educated by a householder. But given the central importance given to saMnyAsa, it is impossible to divorce the Advaita tradition and its transmission of texts and religious/cultural values from Brahminical saMnyAsa. I emphasize "Brahminical" because one needs to distinguish its organization from the Buddhist sangha and its distinction between monastic and lay followers. See Wade Dazey's PhD thesis on the Dasanami orders for details. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jun 6 22:24:55 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 18:24:55 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058944.23782.4448889329805951856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Vasundhara Filliozat wrote: Actually my question was about whether Madhava-Vidyaranya served as a minister to Harihara I. What Kulke says is as follows: "...Vasundhara Filliozat's more recent epigraphical studies are of greatest importance. Thanks to her Ph.D. thesis L'epigraphie de Vijayanagar du de'but a` 1377, we now possess a complete corpus of the inscriptions which refer to the rule of the first generation of Sangama rulers, excluding,however, the inscriptions which have been defined as spurious since H. Heras." (p. 124) Later discussing the identities of Madhavamantrin and Madhava-Vidyaranya, Kulke adds: "It is therefore to be welcomed that Vasundhara Filliozat in her thesis on the inscriptions of early Vijayanagara again took up this problem. On the basis of of her epigraphical studies she verified the conclusions of Rao Bahadur R. Narasimhachar."(p. 129) Kulke accepted Filliozat's conclusion that there were two different persons named Madhava. Then he says: "On the basis of this distinction between the two mAdhavas we are able to come to yet another conclusion, which again might be of greatest importance for our delineations. mAdhavAcArya, if he really ever held any 'secular' post, was a minister of the kings Bukka I (1357-1377) and of his nephew saGgama II. Nothing, however, is known from these sources about any 'secular' activity of mAdhava under king Harihara I." (p.129) Based on this, one is led to believe that in 1985, there was no evidence that Vidyaranya served as a minister to Harihara I. Since Kulke was deriving this conclusion from Filliozat's dissertation, if Filliozat has not changed her views from 1985 until now about Vidyaranya serving under Harihara I, then there are two possibilities. Since her present position is that Vidyaranya did serve under Harihara I, in 1985, Filliozat had based her conclusion on textual sources while Kulke based his decision on epigraphical sources. (It is not clear why Kulke who has quoted Filliozat's work did not mention this important difference of opinion.) On the other hand, if Filliozat and Kulke reached the same conclusion in 1985, then Filliozat's present position has changed from what she held in 1985. The reason for that change is probably the text "purANasAra". (Is this text a recently discovered text authenticated to be that of Madhava-Vidyaranya?) If "purANasAra" played such a decisive role, I would appreciate very much if Filliozat can expand a little bit about what exactly "purANasAra" says regarding this issue. Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 7 05:18:17 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 00 22:18:17 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058949.23782.12748326268376389279.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The textual argument - >But due to the prestige of Sankara's name, the attribution to Sankara >gained >wider acceptance resulting in more manuscripts being produced with >Sankara's >name. One cannot deduce from this that the name Sankaracarya implies a >titular Sankaracarya which implies the existence of a maTha. (to be >continued) > A titular/honorific Sankaracarya may or may not imply the existence of a Matha. The recently departed Swami Hariharananda (Karapatri Swami) was called Abhinava Sankaracarya by his followers, but he himself was never in charge of a Matha. We know of another earlier Abhinava Sankara, namely Ramabrahmananda Tirtha, who wrote a commentary on the Satarudriya hymn of YV. His name does not appear on any Matha list either. In his Sankarabhyudaya, Rajacudamani Dikshita (17th c.) salutes his guru, Girvanendra Sarasvati, as a Paryaya Sankaracharya. This name is also not found on any Matha list. For the textual argument, it is sufficient that one or the other saMnyAsin was regarded by his followers and disciples as being equivalent to Sankara in some sense. It is certainly more economic to assume that such saMnyAsins have been responsible for many of the texts attributed to Sankara. As noted earlier, Saundaryalahari is the only exception, in that one commentary gives the name of a different author. The case is not parallel to that of Nagarjuna or Agastya or even Vyasa. We don't find a range of subjects from alchemy and medicine to philosophy in the texts attributed to Sankara. The influence of Yoga in these texts is certainly understandable, given the close relationship between Advaita/Advaitins and Yoga philosophy/practice. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 7 13:40:24 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 06:40:24 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058954.23782.5252888860483561757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Take for example, pre-Vidyaranya authors and texts > like sarvajnAtman (saMkshepa-SArIraka), vimuktAtman (ishTa-siddhi), > jnAnaghana (tattva-Suddhi), prakASAtman (pancapAdikA vivaraNa), citsukha > (tattva-prakASikA), sukhaprakASa (commentary on citsukha's work), > anubhUtisvarUpa (prakaTArtha vivaraNa?) and Anandagiri (numerous TIkAs and > vivaraNas), who consciously place themselves in the Sankaran tradition. All > these authors were saMnyAsins. Even jnAnottama miSra, the author of candrikA > (commentary on sureSvara's naishkarmya-siddhi), is said to have got his name > in honor of his father's guru, who was a paramahaMsa parivrAjaka. What is not clear in these voluminous discussions is important: Do we have any evidence for a Sankaran maTha prior to 14th century Madhava Vidyaranya? Are there any? Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jun 7 07:48:49 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 08:48:49 +0100 Subject: Vedic recitation (fwd) Message-ID: <161227058952.23782.12284501238545007960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please reply directly to Prof. Bhate, or include her address as a CC: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:00:54 +0530 From: Prof. Saroja Bhate [...]? ??? 2. Can you post this query on Indology Internet : Does Vedic recitation have any effect on human body and mind ? Any studies so far on this topic ? Any one working or expressing at present ? ??????????? Thanks in advance. ??????????? Best wishes ??????????? Saroja Bhate ? ? ? ? ? From deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG Wed Jun 7 13:53:43 2000 From: deartein at CAPACCESS.ORG (Tein Network) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 09:53:43 -0400 Subject: UPANISHADS & A HINDU TEMPLE LIBRARY Message-ID: <161227058957.23782.6006732128670327045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> June 7, 2000 TO: A Request To Indology Scholars & Friends RE: "Upanishads" & The Northern Virginia Hindu Temple Library 4513 A Thought From The Upanishads To Ponder As the same fire assumes different shapes When it consumes objects differing in shape, So does the one Self take the shape Of every creature in whom he is present. Upanishads (c. B.C. 800) DISCUSSION: I find this quote sent to me by someone , fascinating ! 1. COMMENTS REQUESTED : Please make comments on this interesting thought as to the meaning and relavance to the core Hindu Value System that developed through the ages subsequent to the Upanishads. 2. ANY REFERRALS ON SCHOLARLY & READABLE BOOKS ON THE UPANISHADS ? Can anyone recommend one or two "scholarly" and yet "readable" books on this ancient Hindu scripture ? A discussion on contents as well as the likely origin and historical development of this scripture, both subject is of interest to us. 3. ANY OLDER SACRED HINDU VEDAS OR SCRIPTURES ? Are there older scriptures that are treasured by Hindus ? Can anyone provide us with a few thoughts from such a scripture that may shade a light on the meaning of this particular thought from the Upanishads as well ? 4. NOTE ON PREVIOUS RELATED DISCUSSED TOPIC : Kabir's "Ocean of Passion" & Tagore's "Gitanjali" Some of you have sent me valuable comments on Kabir's "Ocean of Passion". Thank you ! We are not yet done with the discussion on this historical context and also the comparison of Kabir's "Ocean of Passion" and Rabindra Nath Tagore's "Gitanjali". So if anyone has further comments or references, such would be most welcome ! Avi Dey Coordinator, Northern Virginia Hindu Temple Library Northern Virginia, USA [admin note: changed date from Wed, 7 Jun 1972 09:53:43 -0400] From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jun 7 06:02:30 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 11:32:30 +0530 Subject: Raamaaya.na Bibliography Message-ID: <161227058971.23782.9207728518987894586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, Sa.msk.rta Sa.msk.rti Sa.m;sodhikaa, a research Institute established by J~naanaprabodhinii, Pune has received a huge collection of works on Raamaaya.na belonging to the late Shri. G. N. Sathe, Pune. The total number of books is 1944 which include various editions of Vaalmiiki's Raamaaya.na and other Raamaaya.nas in various languages and scripts, their translations, literary compositions based on the story of Raama, modern works etc. The Institute is preparing a classified list of the works in that collection, for which it needs information on bibliographies of Raamaaya.na prepared so far. You are requested to supply the necessary information. Thanks. Shrikant Bahulkar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bahulkar.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 7 19:12:21 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 12:12:21 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058960.23782.4517932977324653896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > What is not clear in these voluminous discussions is important: >Do we have any evidence for a Sankaran maTha prior to 14th century >Madhava Vidyaranya? Are there any? > Scroll down on my earlier posting. The answer is there. It perhaps got lost in the volume, for which I apologize. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 7 21:39:01 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 14:39:01 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058962.23782.17452122809249259628.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > --- Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > > Take for example, pre-Vidyaranya authors and texts > > like sarvajnAtman (saMkshepa-SArIraka), vimuktAtman (ishTa-siddhi), > > jnAnaghana (tattva-Suddhi), prakASAtman (pancapAdikA vivaraNa), citsukha > > (tattva-prakASikA), sukhaprakASa (commentary on citsukha's work), > > anubhUtisvarUpa (prakaTArtha vivaraNa?) and Anandagiri (numerous TIkAs and > > vivaraNas), who consciously place themselves in the Sankaran tradition. All > > these authors were saMnyAsins. Even jnAnottama miSra, the author of > > candrikA (commentary on sureSvara's naishkarmya-siddhi), is said to have > > got his name in honor of his father's guru, who was a paramahaMsa > > parivrAjaka. Is there any mention of Sankarite mathas in any of these? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 8 00:00:49 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 17:00:49 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058964.23782.1488990982133545360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >When Madhva broke from advaita tradition, it is possible he was interacting >with adherents of advaita. That does not mean that they were part of a >maTha. It is more than possible, it is certain. His hagiography says that his guru, Acyutapreksha, handed over the control of his own matha to Madhva, and was himself converted from Advaita to Dvaita, because of the force of Madhva's arguments. Thus, the guru is said to have become the disciple of his own disciple. If not for Madhva, we probably would not even know of a pre-existing Matha in Udipi, although the said Matha was transformed from an Advaita institution to a Dvaita institution. >(As Zydenbos asked, do we have any evidence that Madhva broke from a >maTha?) >If that were the case, then should we not assume that when Ramanuja broke >from yAdavaprakAza, there was a maTha in Kanchi in the 11th century? Yes, Yadavaprakasa's matha, not an Advaita Matha. Yadavaprakasa was most probably a bhedAbheda-vAdin. Again, as with Madhva and Acyutapreksha, Yadavaprakasa is said to have eventually submitted to Ramanuja, so whatever institution he may have headed was clearly converted to a Srivaishnava institution. >to him. When teacher-disciple linkages can be established as between nandi >and meykaNTAr of the saiva tradition, why not between Sankara and >Vidyasankara? Just to clarify, doesn't Saiva tradition relate Meykantar directly to Nandi? Or are there intermediates between the two? In any case, it doesn't matter, because the origin myth would have to be associated with whoever is named immediately after Nandi. The case with Sankara and Vidyasankara is different. Firstly, Sankara is not a wholly mythical creation of later Advaitins. He was a historical person, in flesh and blood. Between Sankara and Vidyasankara, there are a few names. Secondly, the mythical origin of the lineage goes back to a time before Sankara. Gaudapada is said to have been a disciple of Suka, the son of Vyasa. Leaving aside whether there was one person called Gaudapada or many, this is admittedly ahistorical. It relies upon the myth of Vyasa and Suka being ciranjIvin-s. Therefore, by the time one gets to Sankara, the myth of origin is already old, by at least a century. It is perhaps even older, because through Vyasa and Suka, we are taken back to the old Rishi, Vasishtha and to the gods, Brahma and Narayana. A different strand takes the lineage back to Siva, who is supposed to have imparted the Upanishadic Mahavakyas to Suka, as found in the Sukarahasyopanishad. This is where the mythical origins of the lineage lie, not in the legends about Sankara and Vidyasankara. But this is not any more mythical or less believable than the origins of various gotras from Bhrgu and Angiras. >As for the seal of Vidyasankara, Rigopoulos says that one side of the seal >contains the impression of a boar, while the reverse shows the impression >of >Sri Vidyasankara. Unless the seal mentions the Sringeri maTha affiliation >for >this Vidyasankara, one cannot assume that the case for Sringeri maTha >existing in the 13th century is proven. Does the Sringeri maTha use the >boar >sign as its emblem? The boar sign was in use till recently. AdivarAha is also said to be the deity of the southern AmnAya. After Independence and the adoption of the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Act(s), the legal status of every Matha is that of a charitable trust, answerable to the respective Charity Commissioner's office for administrative details. The old seal has thus become irrelevant for purposes of official communication. More interestingly, the boar was the royal emblem of the Hoysalas in the 12th-13th centuries, and of the Chalukyas before them. In later times, it was adopted by the Mysore Wodeyars. Again, there seems to be a prehistory to the relationship between Advaita monks and Vijayanagara royalty. It is not an entirely new development in the 14th century. >guruparamparAprabhAvam by pin2pazakiya perumAL jIyar. The vaishnava text >which deals with the lineage of teachers does not mention any Sankara >maTha. Why should it? The Srivaishnava lineage of teachers is quite different from that of Sankara's followers. Does this Vaishnava text refer to Saiva Mathas/lineages or to the contemporary Madhva institutions and monks? >In the prefatory section, the advaita text praises kOvindamAmun2ivan2 >(Govindabhagavatpada) in one verse followed by Sankarabhagavatpada in the >next verse. It does not praise any head of an advaita maTha. Is the 13th century date of this Tamil Advaita text well authenticated? But take the case of the commentary on vivekacUDAmaNi, written by Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati of Sringeri (1912-1954). After Govinda and Sankara, his invocation verses simply salute a "nRsimha guru", with no mention of his guru's status as the Mathadhipati of Sringeri. And nowhere in his commentary does he refer to his own position as the head of the Sringeri Matha either. That he was the head of an institution, and that this reference to a nRsimha guru is to his predecessor on that seat, depends solely on evidence external to the text. You don't even get the full name of the teacher in the work of the disciple. A few centuries hence, this may well be cited as the absence of textual evidence for a Matha in the 20th century. And if information gets lost, a future researcher could well question whether the author of this commentary was the head of any Matha at all. A similar case obtains with Vidyaranya and Bharatitirtha. In the numerous texts they wrote, manuscript colophons do not refer to their Matha. But for the inscriptional evidence, we would not know about a Sringeri Matha in the 14th century. There is an internal logic to this attitude of Advaitins, that deemphasizes identification with place and time, as far as their texts are concerned. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 8 03:41:59 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 20:41:59 -0700 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227058967.23782.7259273779432901481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Have a question to Kannada & MAdhva scholars, a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? b) When was the Madhva life history put together? Was it accomplished in 15th or 16th centuries? In the case of Alvars or Nayanmars or Sankara, the hagiology is done after few centuries. Thanks for the info. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Jun 8 04:32:01 2000 From: mpt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Tandy) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 00 21:32:01 -0700 Subject: [q] Madhva In-Reply-To: <20000608034159.73357.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058969.23782.1280710472727278813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? > b) When was the Madhva life history put together? > Was it accomplished in 15th or 16th centuries? In the case of Alvars > or Nayanmars or Sankara, the hagiology is done after few > centuries. > > Thanks for the info. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > Dr. Iyer, I'm neither a Kannada nor MAdhva scholar, but regarding your second question: MadhvAcArya's Sanskrit hagiography, the Sumadhva-vijaya, is practically the only source of information about him. Fairly sophisticated from a literary point of view, it was composed only a few years after Madhva's departure. Comprising sixteen chapters, in 1008 verses, it is written by NArAyaNa PaNDitAcArya, the son of one of Madhva's leading disciples. NArAyaNAcArya also wrote a similar work known as MaNi-maJjarI. According to C.M. Padmanabhachar in his _Life and Teachings of Sri Madhvachariar_ (Bombay: C. A. Pattabiraman, 1983.), NArAyaNAcArya based his work upon the many poetic chronicles which began to circulate around the time of Madhva's return from his second North Indian tour (92). He adds (103): "The author of Sri Madhva Vijia (sic) was a great admirer and worshipper of the person whose life he wrote. He was almost a contemporary of Sri Madhva, and must have been a witness, with his father, of some at least of the chief events set forth in his narrative. Hence he wrote with the fulness of personal knowledge, and with an enthusiasm natural to recent converts." See also: PaNDitAcArya, NArAyaNa. Sumadhva-vijaya. Ed. VyAsanakere PrabhaJjanAcArya. TirucAnUr: ZrIman-Madhva-siddhAntonnAhinI SabhA, 1989. I hope this helps somewhat. Michael Tandy Dept. of Asian Languages and Literature University of Washington From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jun 8 15:34:19 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 08:34:19 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058981.23782.16505476120667746863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Sankaraite tradition received good amount of patronage from South Indian royalty (Cholas, Pandyas, Hoysalas, etc.,). I think this royal grants played a key role in the preservation of Sankaran heritage. In those times (ie., prior to 14th century), no Sankara maThas are attested. The founding of the Vijayanagar empire by Kannada chieftains as the successor of the Hoysala dynasty seems to have provided new opportunity, and initiated heavy competetion between Maadhvic and Advaitic groups in the Kannada countryside (Udipi, Sringeri) to seek royal support and recognition. Madhava Vidyaranya probably used the old royal patronage of Sankaran traditions to influence the new chiefs at Vijayanagar, and founded the first Sankaran maTha. To achieve the royal grants, M. Vidyaranya probably used Vidyasankara's connections with Hoysalas as Vidyasankara's seal employs the Hoysala symbol, the varaha. OTOH, being a fairly recent group, the followers of Madhva could not win royal support as much as Vidyaranya in the 14th century. However for a later dynasty,Maadhvas gained foothold in Vijayanagar. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Thu Jun 8 08:47:41 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 09:47:41 +0100 Subject: Raamaaya.na Bibliography In-Reply-To: <393DE575.1A84FF38@pn2.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227058978.23782.8518789999574684602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Shrikant Bahulkar wrote: > Sa.msk.rta Sa.msk.rti Sa.m;sodhikaa, a research Institute established by > J~naanaprabodhinii, Pune has received a huge collection of works on > Raamaaya.na belonging to the late Shri. G. N. Sathe, Pune. The total > number of books is 1944 which include various editions of Vaalmiiki's > Raamaaya.na and other Raamaaya.nas in various languages and scripts, > their translations, literary compositions based on the story of Raama, > modern works etc. The Institute is preparing a classified list of the > works in that collection, for which it needs information on > bibliographies of Raamaaya.na prepared so far. You are requested to > supply the necessary information. Thanks. I know, at least, three bibliographical works on Ramayana in English that appeared in recent years: Smith, Harry Daniel: Select bibliography of Ramayana-related studies / comp. by H. Daniel Smith. - Bombay : Ananthacharya Indological Research Institute, 1989. - vii, 127 pp. (Ananthacharya Indological Research Institute Ser.; 21) Singh, Gaurishankar: Ramayana and Ramakatha : an international literature survey / Gaurishankar Singh. - Varanasi : Bibliographical Society of India, 1989. - xxiv, 523 pp. Krishnammorthy, K. (ed.): A critical inventory of Ramayana studies in the world / ed. by K. Krishnamoorthy [et al.]. - Vol. 1: Indian languages and English. - New Delhi : Sahitya Akademi, 1991. - lxxv, 515 pp. A more general reference work in two volumes may be useful, too: Epic and Puranic bibliography (up to 1985) annotated and with indexes / comp. under the chairmanship of Heinrich von Stietencron by P. Flamm, H. v. Stietencron [et al.]. Ed. by H. v. Stietencron, K.-P. Gietz, A. Malinar [et al.]. - Part 1.2. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1992. - lx, 1052; 1055-2116 pp. (Purana Research Publications T?bingen ; 3) I hope it helps Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 8 17:15:31 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 10:15:31 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058983.23782.1313148225645866060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >The Sankaraite tradition received good amount of patronage >from South Indian royalty (Cholas, Pandyas, Hoysalas, etc.,). >I think this royal grants played a key role in the preservation >of Sankaran heritage. In those times (ie., prior to 14th century), >no Sankara maThas are attested. Can you give evidence to substantiate this? Is there epigraphical and textual evidence for "good amount" of support from pre-Vijayanagara dynasties in the south? If so, it is news to me. So far, the evidence has been sparse - one Pandyan inscription for bhikshA to ekadaNDin monks and one for teaching a text written by one cidAnanda piTArar. The said text is no longer available, by the way, indicating a lack of continuity in the particular Brahmana community which received this grant. There is far greater evidence for royal patronage of Jainas, Saivas and Srivaishnavas than for the Sankaran heritage. If concrete evidence for the presence of Mathas is sparse, evidence for other kinds of royal patronage is equally sparse. You want to preferentially come to two different kinds of conclusions on two closely related points, based on similar kinds of evidence. How valid is that? >The founding of the Vijayanagar empire by Kannada chieftains >as the successor of the Hoysala dynasty seems to have >provided new opportunity, and initiated heavy competetion between >Maadhvic and Advaitic groups in the Kannada countryside (Udipi, Sringeri) >to seek royal support and recognition. Madhava Vidyaranya probably used >the old royal patronage of Sankaran traditions to influence the new >chiefs at Vijayanagar, and founded the first Sankaran maTha. Oh, so it was the religious institution that sought royal patronage and recognition, instead of it being the other way round, where the religious institution recognized and legitimated the new royalty (as per Kulke)? If you look closely at 14th century history, you will find that it took at least three decades of war with various local rulers, Hindu and Muslim, before an empire was consolidated. Harihara II was the first ruler who called himself a mahArAjAdhirAja. Harihara I and Bukka I were only more humble rAya-s. The Tamil speaking south was brought into the empire only by the year 1365, as attested by the madhurAvijayam, glorifying Kumara Kampana. If Kampana's victory over the Muslim Sultan of Madurai was significant, equally significant was the subduing of the Hindu Sambuvarayas of Tondaimandalam. The Kerala region was never fully brought under the control of Vijayanagara. Was it guaranteed in 1346 that the Sangama dynasty would succeed in constructing a vast empire covering most of the south? Why was the opportunity in the early 14th century any different from previous opportunities involving the Chalukyas (eastern and western), Rashtrakutas, Cholas, Pandyas and Cheras? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Jun 8 08:26:06 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 10:26:06 +0200 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227058973.23782.13622416942755544274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Madhva, his biographer Narayana, and his followers and critics see also Madhva und seine unbekannten literarischen Quellen: einige beobachtungen by Roque Mesquita, Wien 1997 (of which I wrote a brief review which is to appear in one of the coming issues of Asiatische Studien/Etudes Asiatiques). The author of this study told me that an English version is in preparation. Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: Venkatraman Iyer To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 5:29 AM Subject: [q] Madhva >Have a question to Kannada & MAdhva scholars, >a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? >b) When was the Madhva life history put together? >Was it accomplished in 15th or 16th centuries? In the case of Alvars >or Nayanmars or Sankara, the hagiology is done after few >centuries. > >Thanks for the info. > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Jun 8 08:29:20 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 10:29:20 +0200 Subject: Jaina electronic texts? Message-ID: <161227058976.23782.4841944819770806093.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know whether Jaina canonical texts are anywhere available on the internet or on CD-ROM? JH Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jun 8 17:54:41 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 10:54:41 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058986.23782.15551394282026399574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > one Pandyan inscription for bhikshA to ekadaNDin monks and one > for teaching a text written by one cidAnanda piTArar. The said text is no > longer available, by the way, indicating a lack of continuity in the > particular Brahmana community which received this grant. There is far > greater evidence for royal patronage of Jainas, Saivas and Srivaishnavas > than for the Sankaran heritage. These Tamil inscriptions are significant given that the time gap between Sankara and Vidyaranya is not large (about 350-400 years). > Oh, so it was the religious institution that sought royal patronage and > recognition, instead of it being the other way round, where the religious > institution recognized and legitimated the new royalty (as per Kulke)? A good model is the one proposed by Stein for the Chola heartland (Brahmin-Vellala alliance), the relations and accommodations between the two groups is mutual. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 8 20:31:10 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 13:31:10 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227058990.23782.16532316935743830366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > These Tamil inscriptions are significant given that the time gap > between Sankara and Vidyaranya is not large (about 350-400 years). A date of 950-1000 CE for Sankara is simply indefensible. No date much later than 850 would be valid for him. The time gap is at least 500 years. It seems to me that you want to bring down Sankara's date so as to make it easier for your theory. > A good model is the one proposed by Stein for the Chola heartland >(Brahmin-Vellala alliance), the relations and accommodations between >the two groups is mutual. Mutual perhaps, but unequal nonetheless. The whole notion of redistribution of ritual honors and economic resources depends in a crucial way upon a perceived preeminence of the Brahmin. And Stein's model may not be applicable for other parts of the country or for a different time period. Throughout these discussions, I get a strong sense of Tamil vs. Kannada (or more generally Tamil vs. non-Tamil) feeling. The world of Advaita discourse does not begin and end in Tamil Nadu. As a matter of fact, other religious traditions seem to have always eclipsed the importance of Advaita in the Tamil speaking region. No valid picture of the Advaita tradition can afford to neglect developments in the north, and in the crucial time frame between the 9th and 13th centuries. I don't see that anyone has really looked at this in any detail. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From shrao at NYX.NET Thu Jun 8 19:48:53 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 13:48:53 -0600 Subject: [q] Madhva In-Reply-To: <20000608034159.73357.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227058988.23782.1309943320304816891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Have a question to Kannada & MAdhva scholars, > a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? We don't know that he attained samAdhi in the accepted sense, because such an event is not mentioned anywhere, and no samAdhi of his is to be found (unlike for Ramanuja, etc.). He is said to have disappeared from view in some sense (exactly what remains unclear), and the date for this is established as 1317. See Sharma, B.N.K., `History of the Dvaita School of Vedanta and Its Philosophy', Motilal Banarsidass, 3d ed., Jan. 2000. Regards, Shrisha Rao From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Jun 8 16:41:26 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 00 22:11:26 +0530 Subject: Raamaaya.na Bibliography Message-ID: <161227059008.23782.9152959818908099118.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Wyzlic, Thanks for the reply. I have forwarded the information you have supplied to the person concerned. Shrikant Bahulkar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bahulkar.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 9 15:34:24 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 08:34:24 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059006.23782.11215142369759719620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > A good model is the one proposed by Stein for the Chola heartland > >(Brahmin-Vellala alliance), the relations and accommodations between > >the two groups is mutual. Dr. Vidyasankar: > Mutual perhaps, but unequal nonetheless. The whole notion of redistribution > of ritual honors and economic resources depends in a crucial way upon a > perceived preeminence of the Brahmin. And Stein's model may not be > applicable for other parts of the country or for a different time period. I have read many publications which accept or modify the peasant-priest alliance theory to the entire gamut of early medieval kingdoms in India. In K. Veluthat, The political structure of early medieval south India, this theory plays the center of discussion on the nature of State in Pallava, Pandya, Cera and Chola polities. History of India, Kulke/Rothermund, Routledge, 1998, p. 92 notes the importance of the brahmin in those the early medieval era. "Brahmin families who continued to transmit sacred texts orally from one generation to another were certainly of great importance in this context. They penetrated the South peacefully and made an impact by setting an example rather than by converting people. [...] Brahmins provided a justification and legitimation for the hierarchical structuring of society which was particularly useful to local rulers who emerged from a tribal status. The Brahmins brought along the ideology of Hindu kingship which such rulers eagerly adopted. The Brahmins literally put the tribal people in their place." Note that the authors use the tribal chiefs and priests for the whole of south india, not just the limiting themselves to the chola realm. After the defeat of Harsha by Chalukya Pulakesin II, the medieval era of India dawns sparkling with many regional powers sanctified by Brahmins. This character changes only after the advent of Muslims in the North. The Brahmin role in the legitimization of Indian kings, big or small is high in this period. Kulke/Rothermund, p. 120 " Kings, Princes and Priests: The structure of Hindu realms The survey of the development of several important Indian dynasties has shown some basic structural similarities in these medieval kingdoms. Ever since the days of the Guptas the style to be followed by a Hindu ruler was fairly well set. The Maharaja, be his realm large or small, had emerged as a distinct cultural type. The spread of this style across the subcontinent and on to Souteast Asia was due not only to direct imitation but also to the transmission of its values by the Brahmins who acted as royal advisors and priests to the royal families or to the many temples established by means of royal patronage." An excellent summary of the abovesaid alliance is in the section: "The Brahmins and the ritual sovereignity of the king". Not just the Rajarajesvara temple of the Cholas, the Khajuraho temple, Udaipur temple of the North Indian Paramaras, and Bhubanesvar, Puri temples are included in the analysis. p. 128 "Wheres previously single families or, at the most, small groups had received such grants, the records of te tenth and eleventh centuries suddenly mention large numbers of Brahmins. A ruler of the Gahadavala dynasty, for instance, granted one and a half revenue districts with more than a hundred villages to 500 Brahins in 1093 and 1100." p.130 " The settlement of Brahmins and the establishment of royal temples served the purpose of creating a new network of ritual,political and economic relations. [...] More and more resources were diverted to the Brahmins and temples, and thus were not available for other urgent tasks ..." The propagation and transmission of Sankaran texts was fostered to a large extent by these royal grants establishing Brahmadeyas in all of India and the Brahmin-Kings alliance. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Thu Jun 8 23:57:48 2000 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 09:57:48 +1000 Subject: Jaina electronic texts? Message-ID: <161227058993.23782.5012196440773968760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From our own Indology page there is a link to http://www.sendai-ct.ac.jp/~ousaka/ where electronic versions of the following are available. Dasaveyaliya, Isibhasiyaim, AYaranga, Suyagada, Uttarajjhaya. As far as I have discovered those are the only complete texts available on the web. Another page to look is below, but mostly they give secondary literature (but still many complete books are available to download). http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/jainhlinks.html#Texts Prof. Kansara in Ahmedabad introduced me to a Jain muni preparing a CD-ROM version of Agama texts, he was though I think just having input the edition of the Mahavira Jaina Vidyalaya and as far as I know no CD has yet appeared. From fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Fri Jun 9 18:16:11 2000 From: fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Barbara Schuler) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 11:16:11 -0700 Subject: Lectureship in Hindi, Univ. of Hamburg Message-ID: <161227058995.23782.2383840123920329626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, Thte previously announced position as lecturer in Hindi is now open for applications. For legal reasons we can give only the German text of the announcement. In case you have further questions please contact: The Institute for India and Tibet, Neue Rabenstr. 3, 20354 Hamburg, Germany, tel. +49-40-42838-3385, fax +49-40-42838-6944/6267, or via email fo8a014 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Mrs. Prof. T. Oranskaia). Universit?t Hamburg Fachbereich: Orientalistik Institut: Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Ab 1.10.2000 ist die Stelle einer 3/4 Stelle Lehrkraft f?r besondere Aufgaben der Verg?tungsgruppe IIa BAT mit 28,88 Stunden w?chentlich zu besetzen. Die Stelle ist unbefristet. Die Universit?t strebt die Erh?hung des Anteils von Frauen am wissenschaftlichen Personal and und fordert deshalb qualifizierte Frauen nachdr?cklich auf, sich zu bewerben. Frauen werden im Sinne des Hamburgischen Gleichstellungsgesetzes bei gleichwertiger Qualifikation vorrangig ber?cksichtigt. Aufgaben: Zu den Dienstaufgaben geh?ren die Vermittlung praktischer Fertigkeiten und Kenntnisse. Die Aufgaben k?nnen selbst?ndig oder unter der fachlichen Verantwortung einer Hochschullehrerin/eines Hochschullehrers durchgef?hrt werden. Die Lehrverpflichtung betr?gt 12 Lehrveranstaltungsstunden bei einer w?chentlichen Arbeitszeit von 28,88 Stunden. Eine Reduzierung der Lehrverpflichtung gibt es bei der ?bernahme von fachbezogenen Forschungs- oder wissenschaftlichen Dienstleistungsaufgaben. Aufgabengebiet: Hindi-Unterricht von den Anf?nger- bis zu den Fortgeschrittenen-Kursen. Es soll der grundlegende Hindi-Anf?ngerunterricht betreut und die moderne Hindi-Literatur, sowohl Prosa als auch Lyrik, unterricht werden. Ein grundlegendes Wissen der Entwicklung der Hindi-Literatur und Kenntnisse der Textanalyse werden erwartet. Die ?bernahme eines Sprachkurses in einer zweiten neu-indischen Sprache (vorzugsweise Panjabi, Bengali und oder Tamil oder eine andere dravidische Sprache) ist w?nschenswert. Die Bereitschaft zur Kooperation zur Mitarbeit und Mithilfe an verschiedenen Forschungsprojekten des Instituts wird vorausgesetzt. Einstellungsvoraussetzungen: Abgeschlossene Ausbildung an einer wissenschaftlichen Hochschule. Schwerbehinderte haben Vorrang vor gesetzlich nicht bevorrechtigten Bewerberinnen/Bewerbern gleicher Eignung, Bef?higung und fachlicher Leistung. Bewerbungen mit den ?blichen Unterlagen (Bewerbungsschreiben, tabellarischer Lebenslauf, Hochschulabschlu?) werden bis zum 28.6.2000 erbeten an: Dekan des Fachbereichs Orientalistik, Rothenbaumchaussee 67/69, 20148 Hamburg. F?r n?hrere Informationen wenden Sie sich bitte an Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets, Neue Rabenstr. 3, 20354 Hamburg. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE Fri Jun 9 18:27:40 2000 From: fo6z001 at PUBLIC.UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Barbara Schuler) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 11:27:40 -0700 Subject: Lectureship in Hindi, Univ. of Hamburg Message-ID: <161227058998.23782.9339546135071633197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, The previously announced position as lecturer in Hindi is now open for applications. For legal reasons we can give only the German text of the announcement. In case you have further questions please contact: The Institute for India and Tibet, Neue Rabenstr. 3, 20354 Hamburg, Germany, tel. +49-40-42838-3385, fax +49-40-42838-6944/6267, or via email fo8a014 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de (Mrs. Prof. T. Oranskaia). Previous applicants need not reapply. Universit?t Hamburg Fachbereich: Orientalistik Institut: Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets Ab 1.10.2000 ist die Stelle einer 3/4 Stelle Lehrkraft f?r besondere Aufgaben der Verg?tungsgruppe IIa BAT mit 28,88 Stunden w?chentlich zu besetzen. Die Stelle ist unbefristet. Die Universit?t strebt die Erh?hung des Anteils von Frauen am wissenschaftlichen Personal and und fordert deshalb qualifizierte Frauen nachdr?cklich auf, sich zu bewerben. Frauen werden im Sinne des Hamburgischen Gleichstellungsgesetzes bei gleichwertiger Qualifikation vorrangig ber?cksichtigt. Aufgaben: Zu den Dienstaufgaben geh?ren die Vermittlung praktischer Fertigkeiten und Kenntnisse. Die Aufgaben k?nnen selbst?ndig oder unter der fachlichen Verantwortung einer Hochschullehrerin/eines Hochschullehrers durchgef?hrt werden. Die Lehrverpflichtung betr?gt 12 Lehrveranstaltungsstunden bei einer w?chentlichen Arbeitszeit von 28,88 Stunden. Eine Reduzierung der Lehrverpflichtung gibt es bei der ?bernahme von fachbezogenen Forschungs- oder wissenschaftlichen Dienstleistungsaufgaben. Aufgabengebiet: Hindi-Unterricht von den Anf?nger- bis zu den Fortgeschrittenen-Kursen. Es soll der grundlegende Hindi-Anf?ngerunterricht betreut und die moderne Hindi-Literatur, sowohl Prosa als auch Lyrik, unterricht werden. Ein grundlegendes Wissen der Entwicklung der Hindi-Literatur und Kenntnisse der Textanalyse werden erwartet. Die ?bernahme eines Sprachkurses in einer zweiten neu-indischen Sprache (vorzugsweise Panjabi, Bengali und oder Tamil oder eine andere dravidische Sprache) ist w?nschenswert. Die Bereitschaft zur Kooperation zur Mitarbeit und Mithilfe an verschiedenen Forschungsprojekten des Instituts wird vorausgesetzt. Einstellungsvoraussetzungen: Abgeschlossene Ausbildung an einer wissenschaftlichen Hochschule. Schwerbehinderte haben Vorrang vor gesetzlich nicht bevorrechtigten Bewerberinnen/Bewerbern gleicher Eignung, Bef?higung und fachlicher Leistung. Bewerbungen mit den ?blichen Unterlagen (Bewerbungsschreiben, tabellarischer Lebenslauf, Hochschulabschlu?) werden bis zum 28.6.2000 erbeten an: Dekan des Fachbereichs Orientalistik, Rothenbaumchaussee 67/69, 20148 Hamburg. F?r n?hrere Informationen wenden Sie sich bitte an Institut f?r Kultur und Geschichte Indiens und Tibets, Neue Rabenstr. 3, 20354 Hamburg. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Jun 9 10:51:20 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 12:51:20 +0200 Subject: Web materials on Mirzapur and Lauriya Nandangarh Message-ID: <161227059001.23782.4754190183093674944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Your help in locating web materials (text and photos) on Mirzapur Caves and Lauriya Nandangarh burial mounds would be greatly appreciated. My search brings up several links, but nothing beyond very, very general information. Many thanks in advance, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ----------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------------- WYGRAJ odtwarzacz MP3 Daewoo Magio w KONKURSIE Magazynu WWW http://www.www-mag.com.pl/cgi-bin/konkurs0001/rm.pl?i=00-06-05dk01ko -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hart at POLBOX.COM Fri Jun 9 12:27:15 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 14:27:15 +0200 Subject: Kumrahar Message-ID: <161227059004.23782.7605847893464273447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Could anyone suggest the etymology for Kumrahar, the modern name of the site in Pataliputra on which the Mauryan dynasty's 80-pillared hall is located? Thanks in advance, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland ----------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------------- WYGRAJ odtwarzacz MP3 Daewoo Magio w KONKURSIE Magazynu WWW http://www.www-mag.com.pl/cgi-bin/konkurs0001/rm.pl?i=00-06-05dk01ko -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 10 01:11:26 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 18:11:26 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059016.23782.3337688309351734498.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > I have read many publications which accept or modify the peasant-priest >alliance theory to the entire gamut of early medieval kingdoms in India. >In K. Veluthat, The political structure of early medieval south India, >this theory plays the center of discussion on the nature of State in >Pallava, >Pandya, Cera and Chola polities. I am not an anthropologist or a sociologist, so I'm not going to comment further on Stein's model and its general applicability. As far as the Sankara Mathas are concerned, my central question remains, as follows. Either Stein's model is valid over large areas and periods of time, or it is not valid. Your contention is that it is valid. If so, why are there no significant records from pre-14th century in which a *Matha* receives royal grants and takes a leadership role in Brahmin society? Why is there such meager evidence of Matha patronage by and reciprocal legitimation of the big dynasties between the 9th and 13th centuries - namely the Cola, Pandya, Cera, Calukya and Rashtrakutas? To really get an answer to this, you have to pay attention to the central value of saMnyAsa in Advaita thought, and the codes which regulated the activities of saMnyAsins. You need to pay attention to the texts, and not rely simply on pre-existing sociological and anthropological models of Indian society. In other words, the study of Hindu renunciation from an anthropological perspective is still sorely lacking. Yes, you have Dumont's theory, but what is lost there is a view of the renouncer as a man in the world, at least till physical death comes. Indeed, I'm going to argue that the Advaita view of jIvanmukti finely balances the double character of the renouncer as a man not "of" this world, but still a man "in" this world. This cries out for anthropological study. >The propagation and transmission of Sankaran texts was fostered >to a large extent by these royal grants establishing Brahmadeyas >in all of India and the Brahmin-Kings alliance. This is an assumption on your part. If we are to treat evidence rigorously, you need to show records of Brahmadeya grants specifically made for the study of Sankaran texts. Records that mention the worship of Siva or Vishnu in some temple or the other, or of general settlement of Brahmin families in some village(s) will not do. You also make the fallacy of assuming that Brahmins by and large accepted Sankara's thought. Some did, no doubt, but there is no escaping the fact that saMnyAsa was a threat to the ritual sphere upheld by most Brahmins. There must have been intense opposition to Sankara and his followers within many Brahmin circles, which is borne out by the criticisms of his thought from other schools of Vedanta. Brahmins who received Brahmadeyas were free to promote many different interests that do not depend on Advaita Vedanta, e.g. Vedic ritual, Saiva, Vaishnava and Sakta practices, Nyaya (which rejects Advaita totally, by the way), Vaiseshika, Samkhya, Purva Mimamsa etc. Take a look at Nambudiri society in Kerala, for example. Their adherence to ritual ensured that Advaita was not a very big presence in Kerala till recently, although Sankara himself was a Nambudiri by birth. Even the hagiography preserves a memory of the opposition to Sankara in the land of his birth. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 10 02:08:13 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 19:08:13 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059018.23782.7167424418308054972.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Many books and wedding invitations of 20th century seek the blessing of the >Kanchi Sankaracarya. Even an academic publication, "MM. Professor >Kuppuswami >Sastri Birth-Centenary Commemoration Volume- Part II" of the Kuppuswami >Sastri Research Institute edited by S. S. Janaki (1985) praises Sankara, >the >Kanchi maTha's Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati, Jayendra Sarasvati, and >Vijayendra Sarasvati. Is this simply a modern behavior? Is there any >evidence >in the Tamil tradition showing that such praising of the leader of a maTha >one is affiliated with existed in the 13th century? What is currently happening in the Tamil south is quite unprecedented in its scope. Apparently, the blessings of the Kanchi Acharyas are absolutely necessary for the sun to shine and the wind to blow, to wake up in the morning and to go to sleep at night. All very nice no doubt, for guru-bhakti, but this is traditionally only expected of close disciples, not out of every living being. It is perhaps a uniquely Tamil sentimentality. I wouldn't know, although I'm Tamil myself, as I grew up elsewhere. Or perhaps it is the reaction of Tamil Brahmins and high caste non-Brahmins to DMK-ADMK politics. Whatever be the motivations behind it, that you see this only in contemporary times is itself an indication of the young age of the Kanchi matha. >A month ago, before I read Kulke's article, Tapasyananda's translation of >Madhaviya Sankaravijaya, and Tamil Ilakkiya Varalaru , I had accepted the >view of the proponents of the theory that Sankara established four maThas >at >Sringeri, Puri, Dwaraka, and Badrinath and that the claim of Kanchi that it >was also founded by Sankara had no validity. Now, it looks as if what >Kanchi >did later was qualitatively not different from that done by Sringeri and >other maThas but only a few centuries earlier. 1. One must distinguish between tradition and critical history. That Sankara established four Mathas is widespread tradition. That he established a fifth Matha is the Kanchi Matha's variant tradition, which has been and continues to be fiercely contested by others within the larger tradition. When you are into a critical historical study, tradition has to be questioned, no doubt, but that does not mean that all variant traditions are equal. And I don't see any need for one with critical historical concerns to find an "excuse" for anybody in the tradition(s). 2. Either the tradition is right, albeit with not much independent external evidence for it, or you can indeed hold 14th century personalities responsible for initiating the Matha tradition. In the latter case, what Vidyaranya/Vidyasankara did was to start on a clean slate, so to speak. And surely, what they wrote on the clean slate was based upon their inherited tradition, at least partly. What the Kanchi Matha has been doing for a century and a half is an attempt to erase part of and to modify the rest of the existing writing on the slate. There is a vast difference, in degree and in kind. My statements are both literal and metaphorical. Sometimes it is as simple as changing yA to yo, requiring only the addition of a little stroke, in any Indian script. Wait for my Sankaravijaya paper for details. I won't get into them here. If all this sounds polemical, it is because the Kanchi matha itself was born in, has developed in, and has actively encouraged a culture of polemic against pre-existing Mathas. 3. As for the mAdhavIya Sankaravijaya, does myth influence history or does history influence myth? I suspect it is a two way street. Pre-existing myth influences how people view themselves, and what people actually do influences the myths that grow around them. One can certainly discern historical features in hagiography, after taking into account all the poetic metaphor and hyperbole. See Bruce Lincoln's comments on hagiography in general. Indeed, what is remarkable about the mAdhavIya is the degree to which it agrees with what can be inferred from internal evidence in the texts of Sankara and his disciples/contemporaries. >life span of 16 years of puranic Markandeya. . Given this nature of this >text, it looks as if we really do not have much reliable biographical >information about Sankara. I wonder how professional historians could base >any historical conclusions about Sankara from this text. They don't, really. They always qualify their references to it with a statement that it is difficult to distinguish myth from history in this text. But tell me, do we really know anything about any historical Indian personality, without it being touched with vast amounts of myth, where repeated patterns get played out in infinite variety? Even in this day and age, you find people from Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi to Rajiv Gandhi being glorified in standard hagiographical patterns. Their ashes are interred in "samAdhis", as if they were great religious leaders, not to mention that the very use of the word samAdhi in this context (even for religious leaders) is largely a modern development. >Also, discounting >what Sankaravijaya says, is there any internal evidence in the advaita >texts >showing that Suresvara, Padmapada, Hastamalaka, and Todaka were indeed >Sankara's direct disciples? Thanks in advance. Plenty. The only question that has been raised is about Hastamalaka, but even there, the great degree of unanimity in different traditional accounts has not been considered. You could extend the questioning still further, and ask whether there was any person called Sankara in the first place. To answer these questions, one has to go back to the texts. ity alam, or as we say in Tamil - podum, podum, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Fri Jun 9 18:05:55 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 20:05:55 +0200 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059011.23782.1474153811364949354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This query is being cross-posted to Indology and RISA; my apologies to those who receive it twice: While the Puranas and Mahabharata portray Krishna as an avatara of Vishnu, Gaudiya Vaishnavas take the opposite view and regard Krishna as the 'original' deity, the source of Vishnu and all his avataras. I have heard it stated that the followers of Nimbarka and Vallabha share this theological stance, but have been unable to trace any authority for this. Could anyone point me to one or more primary Nimbarka/Vallabha texts which explicitly state the doctrine of Krishna as avatarin? Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Fri Jun 9 21:01:40 2000 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 00 23:01:40 +0200 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059021.23782.1154707250210874767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shri Palaniyappa has sent many questions on MAdhava VidyAraNya and Dr. Kulke's conclusion. Well, while I was working for my thesis I was not able to put my hands on this text PurANasAra. In 1986 when I met my friend late Pandit Pathak he told me about PurAnasAra and informed me that he is working on that. Also he showed me a few extracts of it when I visited him briefly in Mysore. By then Dr. Kulke's article was published.This PurANasAra text is published for the first time. Very few students of Karnataka (Vijayanagara) history know about the existence of this text though it is valuable one. In ParAsara Madhaviya and in his other works MadhavacArya quotes from his PurANasAra. In this text, Madhava clearly mentions that for a while he worked as a minister and adviser to Harihara I. Like you all, I am also eagerly looking forward to the release odf this publication from ORI, Mysore. This work of Pandit Pathak has given an impetus to my opinion that Madhava before embracing SanyAsa was serving as a minister to Harihara I and then Bukka I. Palaniyappa's another question is about the two MadhavAcAryas who were in the service of the first two kings of Sangama dynasty. One MadhavacArya was the son CAvuNDarAya of Angirasagotra. His guru was KASivilAsakriyAsakti. Another MadhavacArya is ofcourse the famous MAdhavacArya the elder brother of SAyaNacArya. There was one more question about the name of place Gokarai or Kogara etc. Unfortunately I do not know except the names of GokarNa or Karkala. To me the latter seems to be more close to the Tamil orthographie . These answers might pave path for more questions. Regards. Vasundhara Filliozat. -----Original Message----- From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 12:25 AM Subject: Re: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke >Dr. Vasundhara Filliozat wrote: > > >Actually my question was about whether Madhava-Vidyaranya served as a >minister to Harihara I. > >Madhava...Now the >publication of Puraanasaara confirms that Madhava, the brother of Sayana >first became the minister to Harihara I and then to Bukka I... >Unfortunately I do not have Dr. Kulke's article here with me. So I cannot >say either yes or no to his views.> > >What Kulke says is as follows: >"...Vasundhara Filliozat's more recent epigraphical studies are of greatest >importance. Thanks to her Ph.D. thesis L'epigraphie de Vijayanagar du de'but >a` 1377, we now possess a complete corpus of the inscriptions which refer to >the rule of the first generation of Sangama rulers, excluding,however, the >inscriptions which have been defined as spurious since H. Heras." (p. 124) > >Later discussing the identities of Madhavamantrin and Madhava-Vidyaranya, >Kulke adds: >"It is therefore to be welcomed that Vasundhara Filliozat in her thesis on >the inscriptions of early Vijayanagara again took up this problem. On the >basis of of her epigraphical studies she verified the conclusions of Rao >Bahadur R. Narasimhachar."(p. 129) > >Kulke accepted Filliozat's conclusion that there were two different persons >named Madhava. Then he says: >"On the basis of this distinction between the two mAdhavas we are able to >come to yet another conclusion, which again might be of greatest importance >for our delineations. mAdhavAcArya, if he really ever held any 'secular' >post, was a minister of the kings Bukka I (1357-1377) and of his nephew >saGgama II. Nothing, however, is known from these sources about any 'secular' >activity of mAdhava under king Harihara I." (p.129) > >Based on this, one is led to believe that in 1985, there was no evidence that >Vidyaranya served as a minister to Harihara I. Since Kulke was deriving this >conclusion from Filliozat's dissertation, if Filliozat has not changed her >views from 1985 until now about Vidyaranya serving under Harihara I, then >there are two possibilities. Since her present position is that Vidyaranya >did serve under Harihara I, in 1985, Filliozat had based her conclusion on >textual sources while Kulke based his decision on epigraphical sources. (It >is not clear why Kulke who has quoted Filliozat's work did not mention this >important difference of opinion.) On the other hand, if Filliozat and Kulke >reached the same conclusion in 1985, then Filliozat's present position has >changed from what she held in 1985. The reason for that change is probably >the text "purANasAra". (Is this text a recently discovered text authenticated >to be that of Madhava-Vidyaranya?) If "purANasAra" played such a decisive >role, I would appreciate very much if Filliozat can expand a little bit about >what exactly "purANasAra" says regarding this issue. Thanks in advance. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan > From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Jun 9 21:23:22 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 00 00:23:22 +0300 Subject: vostridr In-Reply-To: <39418973.521890CB@rrz.uni-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <161227059013.23782.4897046534976650970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dorogaya Tanya, da razve u Miliband Vy takoje najdjote? U nejo chto v pervom izdanii, chto v poslednem - vsjo o repressijakh zamazano i dazhe dany chasto fal'sifitsirovannyje daty zhizni. To, chto ja Vam prislal - iz nakhodjashcegosja v pechati slovarja: Ya.Vassilkov, F.Perchyonok, M.Sorokina. Vostokovedy v Gulage. Biobibliograficheskij slovar' vostokovedov - zhertv gosudarstvennogo terrora v SSSR. 1917-1991. V slovare 850 personalij i primerno stol'ko zhe stranits. Spasibo za priglashenije v Hamburg. U menja tam zhivjot odin staryj prijatel', tak chto zajedu pochti objazatel'no. Vsjakoj Vam udachi. Slava. Sat, 10 Jun 100 03:19 +0300 MSK Tatiana Oranskaia wrote to Yaroslav Vassilkov : > Dorogoy Slava, > bol'shoe spasibo za prislannye materialy. V osnovnom oni chitayutsya, > xotya ne vsyo. Eto iz Milibadovskogo Slovarya? Zdes' tol'ko pervoe > izdanie. No esli ottuda, to u Vas ya bol'she ne budu otnimat' vremya. > Priezzhayte ko mne iz Leidena. > Vsego dobrogo > Tania O. > > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Sat, 10 Jun 100 00:13 +0300 MSK From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 10 12:37:45 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 00 05:37:45 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059026.23782.14046939138515468306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. V. Filliozat wrote: >But I do not think we will succeed in finding some written doccuments >relating to the history of the Math before 1346. I would also think so. All scholars agree that there is no evidence for Sringeri maTham before 1346. With kind regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 10 13:47:55 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 00 06:47:55 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059029.23782.15202425718837977559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In this text, Madhava clearly mentions that for a while he worked as a >minister and adviser to Harihara I. Like you all, I am also eagerly looking >forward to the release odf this publication from >ORI, Mysore. This work of Pandit Pathak has given an impetus to my opinion >that Madhava before embracing SanyAsa was serving as >a minister to Harihara I and then Bukka I. Like Maadhava Vidyaranya, was it routine in those periods that persons working as royal advisors and simultaneously or a little while later, took to the ochre robe to work on advaitic treatises? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR Sat Jun 10 06:18:44 2000 From: pfilliozat at MAGIC.FR (Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 00 08:18:44 +0200 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227059024.23782.16104161187269532634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shri Shrish Rao put a question., "whether Madhva attain samaadhi in 1317 or in 1386?" Madhvacarya, according to the tradition, became 'antardhAna'. In 1386 it was Madhavacarya alias VidyAraNya becaame "paripUrNa" i.e. united with God. This is all I know from my research work. Regardss Vasundhara Filliozat. -----Original Message----- From: Shrisha Rao To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [q] Madhva >> Have a question to Kannada & MAdhva scholars, >> a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? > >We don't know that he attained samAdhi in the accepted sense, because >such an event is not mentioned anywhere, and no samAdhi of his is to >be found (unlike for Ramanuja, etc.). He is said to have disappeared >from view in some sense (exactly what remains unclear), and the date >for this is established as 1317. See Sharma, B.N.K., `History of the >Dvaita School of Vedanta and Its Philosophy', Motilal Banarsidass, 3d >ed., Jan. 2000. > >Regards, > >Shrisha Rao > From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Sat Jun 10 18:02:28 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 00 14:02:28 -0400 Subject: event announcement from SARAI Message-ID: <161227059031.23782.16523723371884807104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact event organizers directly for any further info. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai --------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:54 +0100 (BST) From: rai at cix.compulink.co.uk (RAI) Subject: asceticism and power in Asia To: magier at columbia.edu, Cc: rai at cix.compulink.co.uk Reply-To: rai at cix.compulink.co.uk Dear David, Could you publicise the event below in your calendar? (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/conferences.html) 23-24 Feb 2001 [change of date] Asceticism and power in the Asian context. Organized by the Royal Asiatic Society, London, in conjunction with the School of Oriental and African Studies. Deadline for submission abstracts [change of date]: 1 Sep 2000. Contact Rupert Cox on the Far East (106207.2000 at compuserve.com ), Peter Flugel on South Asia (pf at cix.co.uk) Gustaaf Houtman on South East Asia (ghoutman at tesco.net ). Royal Asiatic Society, 60 Queen s Gardens, London W2 3AF, http://rai.anthropology.org.uk/anthcal/asianasceticism.html Best wishes Gustaaf Houtman, Editor ------------------------ ANTHROPOLOGY TODAY Royal Anthropological Institute 50 Fitzroy Street London W1P 5HS United Kingdom ------------------------ tel +44-20-7387 0455 fax +44-20-7383 4235 ------------------------ ghoutman at rai.cix.co.uk http://rai.anthropology.org.uk From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jun 11 12:50:48 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 00 08:50:48 -0400 Subject: Dimock, Caitanya*, HOS 56, released In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000609092939.00bc95f0@polbox.com> Message-ID: <161227059034.23782.10439722442677917589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Having been too busy recently with many deadlines, I neglected to inform you that we have finally printed & released, a few weeks ago : Caitanya Caritamrta of Krsnadasa Kaviraja A Translation and Commentary by Edward C. Dimock, Jr. with an Introduction by Edward C. Dimock, Jr. and Tony K. Stewart. Edited by Tony K. Stewart Harvard Oriental Series 56 (HUP code: DIMCAI) 7 x 10", pp. 1206. ISBN 0-674-00285-7 Cloth $80.00x (?49.95 UK) for our (not quite up to date) list of HOS see: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/hos.htm for Harvard Univ. Press & orders see: http://128.103.251.49/default.html This book had been accepted for HOS by my predecessor some decades ago, but... habent sua fata volumines. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- The Caitanya Caritamrta is an early seventeenth-century Bengali and Sanskrit biography of the great saint and Vaisnava leader Caitanya (1486-1533 C.E.), by the poet and scholar Krsnadasa, who has been given by Bengali tradition the title Kaviraja "Prince of Poets." The text is of interest to theologians (Caitanya was, in Krsnadasa's view, an androgyne of Krsna and Radha), philosophers (his theory was that aesthetic and religious experience are much the same in kind), historians of religion (the movement that Caitanya inspired has encompassed the great part of the eastern Indian subcontinent, and Krsnadasa has some interesting observations on his own times), and appreciators of literature (in Krsnadasa's very long poem are embedded some lyric gems). Edward C. Dimock, Jr., is Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus, University of Chicago. Tony K. Stewart is Associate Professor of South Asian Religions at North Carolina State University and Director of the North Carolina Center for South Asia Studies. ============================================================================ ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT Sun Jun 11 16:02:26 2000 From: fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT (Federico Squarcini) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 00 18:02:26 +0200 Subject: Address of Prof. R. Thapar In-Reply-To: <000201bfd2a3$8c6fc2a0$b5239ac3@preferred-user> Message-ID: <161227059037.23782.6699456775849542783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List-members, I'm searching since weeks, without success, an e-mail address of Prof. Romila Thapar (retired from Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi), for an editorial commitment. Is anybody inform about it? Many thanks, F. Squarcini From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jun 12 14:12:38 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 07:12:38 -0700 Subject: Four maTha tradition Message-ID: <161227059052.23782.15909896413169685361.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Usually, in neo-vedanta or Sankara matha writings, we come across the statement that Adi Sankaracharya founded mathams in all the four cardinal directions. How old is this tradition? Is this only a post-Vivekananda phenomenon? Related question: are they any written records of interactions between the 4 mathams suppposed to have been founded by Sankara, and how far back in time those records go? In other words, what is the oldest writing which mentions Sankara founding 4 mutts? 19th/20th centurie, or earlier? Thanks, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jun 12 14:30:58 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 07:30:58 -0700 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227059054.23782.8608995225241996089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Maadhvic tradition puts antardhAna date at 1317 giving a full 120 years to Sri. Madhvacharya. --- Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat wrote: > Shri Shrish Rao put a question., "whether Madhva attain samaadhi in 1317 or > in 1386?" > Madhvacarya, according to the tradition, became 'antardhAna'. In 1386 it was > Madhavacarya alias VidyAraNya becaame "paripUrNa" i.e. united with God. > This is all I know from my research work. > Regardss > Vasundhara Filliozat. > -----Original Message----- > From: Shrisha Rao > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:47 PM > Subject: Re: [q] Madhva > > > >> Have a question to Kannada & MAdhva scholars, > >> a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? > > > >We don't know that he attained samAdhi in the accepted sense, because > >such an event is not mentioned anywhere, and no samAdhi of his is to > >be found (unlike for Ramanuja, etc.). He is said to have disappeared > >from view in some sense (exactly what remains unclear), and the date > >for this is established as 1317. See Sharma, B.N.K., `History of the > >Dvaita School of Vedanta and Its Philosophy', Motilal Banarsidass, 3d > >ed., Jan. 2000. > > > >Regards, > > > >Shrisha Rao > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 12 08:54:17 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 09:54:17 +0100 Subject: announcement of journal and conference (fwd) Message-ID: <161227059040.23782.9463269424665037584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:16:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Chandana Chakrabarti Subject: Re: announcement of journal and conference Call for Papers Mysticism, Reason, Art and Literature: East West Perspectives Scholars are invited to submit titles and abstracts (about 150 words) of papers to be presented in the Interdisciplinary conference on "Mysticism, Reason, Art and Literature: East West Perspectives" to be held on September 13-14, 2000 at the Ferrum College,Virginia. Possible topics include: Art, Literature and Religion, Mysticism and Romanticism, Art and Creativity, Art and Imitation, Illustration of Classical Literature, Art History and Literature, Magic Realism,World Folklore and World Mythology, Myth, Metaphor and Reality, Fact, Fiction and Forecast, Language, Thought and Reality, Realism and Idealism, Scepticism, Agnosticism and Dogmatism, Deductivism and Inductivism, Holism and Atomism, Ineffable and Unknowable, God and Absolute, Transcendence and Immanence, Reason, Revelation and Faith, Atman and Brahman, Tao and Inaction, Zen and Enlightenment, Vedanta and Sufism, Emptiness and Nothingness, Maya and Primal Nature, Creation, Reincarnation and Evolution, Deconstruction and Relativity, Process Theology, Existentialism and Essentialism. This list is illustrative and not exhaustive. The deadline for submission of abstracts is August 15, 2000. The advance registration fee of $50 should be paid by check drawn in favor of the Ferrum College and mailed by August 25, 2000 to Kisor Chakrabarti. The on site registration fee is $75. There will be a banquet in the evening of September 13 and also a cultural event featuring classical Indian music. For further information please contact: Dr. Kisor Chakrabarti, Conference Director Philosophy and Religious Studies Ferrum College, Ferrum, Virginia 24088 Telephone: 540-365-4322 Email: Kchakrabarti at ferrum.edu From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 12 18:39:34 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 11:39:34 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059057.23782.17098017847371087981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Whatever be the motivations behind it, that you see this only in >contemporary times is itself an indication of the young age of the Kanchi >matha. I guess Vidhya must be possesing some special kind of vision - for he's able to read the "young age" of the KAnchi matham everywhere. Shringeri as a place is a non-entity in the historical and spiritual sense. How many texts, say five hundred years back, even mention such a place? In contrast, like the other three recognized centres - Dwaraka, Puri and Badrinath which enjoy spiritual reputation beyond its Shankara Mathams, KAnichipuram has been the jewel of the south. Apart from being one of the recognized spiritual centres in India, it was also the capital of the Pallava dynasty and also a great center for scholastic pursuits of all disciplines - Astika and nAstika. Astika and nAstika literature affirm this. Is there any record of RAmAnuja, the Vishitadvaitin, ever visiting Shringeri? On the contrary, there's a record that he debated with a Advaitin for several continous days in KAnchi. That Shankara, a South Indian, would not have passed on KAnchi on his dig vijayams is an impossibility. It is also quite likely that he set up a matham, where rival schools too operated. In this context it seems unlikely that he would have set up a matham in a place like Shringeri, which had no such recognition at that time. Also, if the KAnchi matham is a fake as Vidhya seems to tirelessly assert how could it have ever have got such a reputation? In contrast, of the so called "official", Shankara mathams, apart from Shringeri and Puri, the two others are almost defunct. Even Puri's lineage doesn't seem to have been continous. And none of them, including Shringeri, enjoy the repute of KAnchi. And I'm also surprised with Vidhya's accusation that the KAnchi matham itself grew out of its polemic with the other mathams, because as a follower of the KAnchi matham, I've never heard any such polemic deriding the other mathams. Contrast this with the never ending polemic by the followers of Shringeri about their "authenticity". Also, Anandagiri's version of Shankara's life is older than MAdhava's. Just because it contains mythical and "inconsistant" accounts of Shankara's life, can the older version be discarded as a whole? If so called "traditional" history, concurs with "official" history, it is probably time to re-investigate the basic presumptions which led to such concurrance, rather than build on it, just because it fits one's theories. I've a question regarding the dating of Shankara. In RAmAnuja's life history we've a good idea of India's condition at that point in time - that it was overrun with Moslems. If Shankara was only earlier to RAmAnuja by a mere 3 to 4 centuries, when North India was already being dominated by Moslems, how come there's no such mention in Shankara's texts? Reading Shankara's texts one gets a distinct impression, that the traditional Indian society was still quite active throughout the land, though tainted (atleast according to Shankara) by nAstika influence. But is there even any mention of Moslem influence? Contrast this with VidhyAranya in his Shankara Dig Vijaya, where in the opening verses he mentions the Moslems. And even in his history of Shankara where Shankara tours the whole of India, he gives no indication that the land even if it is only the Northern part during Shankara's times was being overrun with Moslems. Or am I missing something? Anyway as Advaitins, whose main doctrine is the unity of all things, why are people even getting into this "genuine and authentic" game? I doubt if the KAnchi AchAryas are into any of this. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Mon Jun 12 17:41:36 2000 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 11:41:36 -0600 Subject: "yakSAmah" - "let us gobble" ?? Message-ID: <161227059059.23782.6531015041332876129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Coomaraswamy (Coom., YakSas, New Delhi: Munshiram, 1971; prt 1, 5f1) has translated a passage from the RAmAyana (7.104.12-13) , BrahmA created beings to guard the waters and some of these cried "rakSAmah," "let us guard," and others "yakSAmah," "let us gobble," becoming thus RAkSasas and YakSas. I would like to know on what basis Coom. has come up with "let us gobble" from "yakSamah" ? My understanding of yakSa is that it possibly derives from the Sanskrit root "yaj" to worship and that it means, according to Monier-Williams, "a living supernatural being." It was suggested to me that perhaps there is some relationship between bhakSa, to eat and yakSa, in Coom.'s translation, thus, deriving at "let us gobble". For example, bhakSaNa is "one who eats", (M.-W., 742). Is anyone able to comment on the relationship, if any, between yakSamah and bhakSaNa, or comment generally on the meaning of yakSAmah which is specific to the translation of "let us gobble"? Thank-you in advance. B. Fleming From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI Mon Jun 12 10:18:52 2000 From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 13:18:52 +0300 Subject: Address of Prof. R. Thapar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059042.23782.14559744922225379424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> romila at sapta.com >Dear List-members, >I'm searching since weeks, without success, an e-mail address of Prof. >Romila Thapar (retired from Jawaharlal Nehru University, Delhi), for an >editorial commitment. Is anybody inform about it? >Many thanks, >F. Squarcini Klaus Karttunen Institute for Asian and African Studies Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094 From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 12 21:04:03 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 14:04:03 -0700 Subject: Four maTha tradition Message-ID: <161227059062.23782.4418076854654702621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: >In other words, what is the oldest writing which mentions >Sankara founding 4 mutts? 19th/20th centurie, or earlier? I don't see anybody else on this list responding in this thread and I am sick and tired of repeating the same information as answers to a bunch of related questions. I wish those asking the questions had the decency to go through the previous answers before asking the same questions in new versions. I wonder what the motivations behind these questions are. Taking the charitable view that this is a genuine request for sources, here goes. cidvilAsa's SankaravijayavilAsa explicitly mentions that Sankara established the four maThas. The text has been dated to the 15th century by its editor, W. R. Antarkar, but I think it is probably from the 17th century. Don't respond to this with a question about the validity of these dates. Go back to the text or to secondary sources like the numerous books on the life of Sankara and see what they have to say about this texts. Or wait for IJHS to resume publication, and read my article on the hagiographic texts. For other sources, write to UMI or to the library at UC, Santa Barbara, and ask for a copy of Wade Dazey's thesis on the Dasanami orders. I hope Dazey gets around to publishing his thesis as a book. It would save a lot of aggravation. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Mon Jun 12 12:31:07 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 14:31:07 +0200 Subject: Prof. Katsura & Prof. Hayashima Message-ID: <161227059045.23782.13194095558404585269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have an e-mail address to Prof. Shoryu Katsura of Hiroshima University and Prof. Hayashima of Kyushu University? With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Mon Jun 12 12:37:16 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 14:37:16 +0200 Subject: PrasannapadA Message-ID: <161227059049.23782.9120342033029158590.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does there exist any electronic version of the PrasannapadA commentary in Sanskrit by CandrakIrti to the MadhyamakakArikAs of nAgArjuna? I am already aware of the electronic version of the Tibetan translation via ACIP. With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 12 23:31:10 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 16:31:10 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059071.23782.15317928148144884302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >I guess Vidhya must be possesing some special kind of vision - for >he's able to read the "young age" of the KAnchi matham everywhere. Nothing special about it. Just access to and a careful investigation of primary sources, along the application of reason to well-attested chronology. >Shringeri as a place is a non-entity in the historical and spiritual sense. It is precisely this non-entity that is associated with very big entities in Advaita tradition, and is mentioned at the head of all old Dasanami lists, which don't mention a Kanchi Matha at all. Unless there has been a massive and successful conspiracy by everyone north of Tamil Nadu to deny the Kanchi Matha its due recognition, I don't see why the Dasanami records say what they do say. Of course, the simpler way to look at it all is that the Kanchi Matha was born after the said records were written. For many of my fellow Tamilians, I am sorry to say, it seems as if nothing of any value could have ever existed south of the Narmada and north of the Tamil speaking regions. This is as bad as the outlook of some north Indians, for whom nothing exists south of the Gangetic plains. The rest of Nanda's post is based on Kanchi Matha publications and reveals precisely the kind of polemic that the followers of the Kanchi Matha are good at, while simultaneously disclaiming it, and accusing the Sringeri Matha of all the polemic. This has been going on since the 1850's, so it is nothing very new. When one points out that the Kanchi Matha was originally based at Kumbhakonam, and that this Matha transformed into a Kanchi Matha only between 1842 and 1868, that becomes polemical. When one points out that it was the British East India Company that appointed the Kumbhakonam Sankaracharya as the sole trustee of the Kanchi Kamakshi temple in the mid-19th century, that becomes polemical. When one points out that the hereditary Sthanikas of the Kanchi Kamakshi temple challenged the acquisition of the temple by the Kumbhakonam Sankaracharya, in the 1840's and again in the 1920's, that becomes polemical (See Mattison Mines and Vijayalakshmi Gourishankar, Leadership and Individuality in South Asia: The Case of the South Indian Big Man, Journal of Asian Studies 49, no. 4 (November 1990): 761?86, for details of these dates). When one points out that given this Kumbhakonam origin, all the claims about "Nagareshu Kanchi" and "Kanchi is the only mokshapurI in the south" say nothing about the current Kanchi Matha, that again becomes polemical. But when Kanchi Matha publications make all sorts of statements about Sringeri (non-entity) and other Mathas (almost defunct), we are supposed to believe that that is not polemical. Perhaps Nanda does not realize that Kaladi, Sankara's place of birth, is also a "non-entity" in his scheme of things. And perhaps he does not realize that the very claim that the Kanchi Matha has a bigger reputation than the Sringeri Matha is itself polemical to the core. >Anyway as Advaitins, whose main doctrine is the unity of all things, why >are people even getting into this "genuine and authentic" game? I doubt >if the KAnchi AchAryas are into any of this. Obviously, you mean to imply that it is only the Sringeri Acharyas who are into this, but the record shows otherwise. I am sorry to say this, but the Kanchi Acharyas have always been into it. You just have to read a few articles from the commemoration volume on Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati at www.kamakoti.org, to see the level of involvement the Kanchi Acharyas have traditionally brought to this game. See especially, http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/4-12.html, and http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/5-59.html. In the latter page, the criticism is disguised as if it were praise, but this is what Tamilians refer to as "vAzhaippazhattil Uci". One has to be exceedingly naive, not to see it for what it is. I suppose I should not dignify all this with a response, but I only wish to bring some primary sources to the attention of list members, in the hope that they will be useful to one who takes up Prof. Fort's earlier suggestion of investigating the Sankara Matha traditions. I will provide this list in a later email, which will be absolutely the last from me on this topic. I refuse to respond to any further questions, which seem to be nothing more than catcalls. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From shrao at NYX.NET Mon Jun 12 22:43:57 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 16:43:57 -0600 Subject: [q] Madhva In-Reply-To: <20000612143058.25780.qmail@web314.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227059067.23782.4561562324003494004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > Maadhvic tradition puts antardhAna date at 1317 giving > a full 120 years to Sri. Madhvacharya. No, it doesn't. What is your source? The highest span of life given, not by tradition but by scholars in the last century or so, is 94 years, and this has been solidly disputed by B.N.K. Sharma in the "History of the Dvaita School of Vedanta and Its Literature." Tradition consistently holds 79 years to be the span. Regards, Shrisha Rao From shrao at NYX.NET Mon Jun 12 22:47:36 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 16:47:36 -0600 Subject: [q] Madhva In-Reply-To: <000901bfd2a3$bb400360$b5239ac3@preferred-user> Message-ID: <161227059069.23782.7863311768796648569.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat wrote: > Shri Shrish Rao put a question., "whether Madhva attain samaadhi in 1317 or > in 1386?" If you carefully read what I wrote (which in fact you appended to your posting), I did no such thing. I was responding to someone who did. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Regardss > Vasundhara Filliozat. > -----Original Message----- > From: Shrisha Rao > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 9:47 PM > Subject: Re: [q] Madhva > > > >> Have a question to Kannada & MAdhva scholars, > >> a) Did Madhva attain samadhi in 1317 CE or is it in 1386 CE? > > > >We don't know that he attained samAdhi in the accepted sense, because > >such an event is not mentioned anywhere, and no samAdhi of his is to > >be found (unlike for Ramanuja, etc.). He is said to have disappeared > >from view in some sense (exactly what remains unclear), and the date > >for this is established as 1317. See Sharma, B.N.K., `History of the > >Dvaita School of Vedanta and Its Philosophy', Motilal Banarsidass, 3d > >ed., Jan. 2000. > > > >Regards, > > > >Shrisha Rao From shrao at NYX.NET Tue Jun 13 03:14:14 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 21:14:14 -0600 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000609200555.007a9a00@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227059077.23782.15503319530450005860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Martin Gansten wrote: > This query is being cross-posted to Indology and RISA; my apologies to > those who receive it twice: > > While the Puranas and Mahabharata portray Krishna as an avatara of Vishnu, > Gaudiya Vaishnavas take the opposite view and regard Krishna as the > 'original' deity, the source of Vishnu and all his avataras. I have heard > it stated that the followers of Nimbarka and Vallabha share this > theological stance, but have been unable to trace any authority for this. > Could anyone point me to one or more primary Nimbarka/Vallabha texts which > explicitly state the doctrine of Krishna as avatarin? I would look at Vallabha's comm. on the Bhagavata P., I.3-28. This verse is cited as an authority in this matter by the Gaudiyas, and it is clear that they were not the first to do so; that same interpretation of the verse is discarded by Madhva in his commentary on it, and also in his commentary on the Bhagavad Gita, X-41. Although *in recent times* it is the Gaudiyas who are most prominent supporters of this theory, it is certainly older than the earliest available exposition of it. Perhaps Chitsukha, Punyaranya, or some other pre-Madhva commentator on the Bhagavata expounded it also. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Martin Gansten From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Jun 13 01:29:28 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 21:29:28 -0400 Subject: Prof. Katsura & Prof. Hayashima In-Reply-To: <003c01bfd46a$16d5de80$5ccbe182@utkragh> Message-ID: <161227059074.23782.14366174403371981242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Does anyone have an e-mail address to Prof. Shoryu Katsura of >Hiroshima University and Prof. Hayashima of Kyushu University? > >With best regards, >Ulrich T. Kragh >University of Copenhagen katsura at hiroshima-u.ac.jp I can't find Hayashima's at the moment, but Prof Katsura will have it. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 613 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garzilli at SHORE.NET Mon Jun 12 21:12:58 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 00 23:12:58 +0200 Subject: IJTS Vol. 4, Special issue (June 12, 2000) Message-ID: <161227059064.23782.5123329710947747111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, I am glad to announce this special issue of the *International Journal of Tantric Studies* with the paper "Magically Storming the Gates of Buddhahood: Extensible Text Technology (XML/XSLT) as a Simulacrum for Research" by Dr. John Robert Gardner. http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ijts/vol4_special/paper1.asp This issue will be free for 15 days. To subscribe to the IJTS look at http://www.asiatica.org Happy reading! EG ****************************************************************** ABSTRACT: An (un)surprising conceptual parallel between Tantric and Vedic practices of mantra manipulation, and the very latest in computer information technology--XML, or Extensible Markup Language--provides scholars with unique new research possibilities. The well-known procedures by which mantras are selected and extracted for ritual application -- e.g., vidhaana -- as well as transposition and intertwining -- e.g., viharaNam -- can be almost directly translated into a powerful new computer tool, called Extensible Stylesheet Language for Transformations (XSLT) and used on electronic versions of shrutii. The paper draws upon these functional parallels to introduce the reader to XML--which is very much like HTML--and then demonstrate the theory and application of ideas like viharaNam and vidhaana with electronic texts (full set is included with technical appendices) from the Rig Veda (specifically RV 3.62). Basic theory of XML, XSLT and XPath are introduced, explanations and links to required files and programs (all freeware), and a complete electronic Rg Veda in XML, with pre-written, adaptable XSLT scripts are included. *********************************END****************************** Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 13 11:06:28 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 04:06:28 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059081.23782.12887054455079150196.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Annotated bibliography that anybody interested in the Sankaracharya tradition should look at. I have split the list into two parts. As promised earlier, these two posts will be my last word on this topic. I would welcome it if someone else responded to any further questions. And I request those who ask questions about Sankara's date and the origins of the various Mathas to first investigate the following sources and further references in them. A search of the list archives for relevant keywords would also be helpful. The subject has been discussed many times before, and often by the same people involved in the current thread. 1. Swami Sadananda Giri, 1976, Society and sannyasin: A history of the dasnami sannyasins. Rishikesh: Kriyayoga Ashram - where a list of more than 50 Mathas and Asramas of the Dasanami tradition is given, with no mention whatsoever of an institution at Kanchipuram. Of course, the list begins with Sringeri. Is this only part of the anti-Kanchi polemic emanating from Sringeri? I think not. 2. Wade Dazey, 1987, The Dasanami order and monastic life, PhD dissertation, UC, Santa Barbara - gives credence only to the four Matha tradition, based on the textual sources. 3. V. A. Devasenapati, 1975, Kamakottam, Nayanmars and Adi Sankara. Madras: Institute of Traditional Cultures, University of Madras - where the most unbridled polemic against the Sringeri Matha is presented as if it were critical historical research, even claiming the moral support of Jean Filliozat. Among the gems in this book is the claim that the Sringeri Sarada Peetham must be subordinate to the Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham, because SrI and SAradA are described as attendants on the Goddess lalitA in the lalitA sahasranAma, while kAmAkshI is identical with lalitA. I'm waiting to see when a similar claim will be made with respect to SrIvaishNava institutions where SrI is worshipped. Those interested in the Saiva Nayanmars need to read it too. 4a. T. S. Narayana Sastri, 1916, The Age of Sankara, Madras: B. G. Paul and Co. - the first English language source of all the anti-Sringeri polemic from Kanchipuram, along with largely unwarranted criticisms of the mAdhavIya Sankaravijaya. 4b. A. Nataraja Aiyer and S. Lakshminarasimha Sastri. 1962. The Traditional Age of Sri Sankaracharya and The Maths. Madras: Minerva Press - more of the above. 5a. Swami Swahananda, 1989, Monasteries in South India. Los Angeles: Vedanta Press - where there are separate chapters on Sringeri and Kanchi, but the introducion says that Sringeri is the original source of the Advaita monastic orders in the south. 5b. Swami Tapasyananda, 1980, Sankara-dig-vijaya: The traditional life of SrI SankarAcArya, by mAdhava-vidyAraNya. 2nd ed. Madras: Ramakrishna Math - where the criticisms offered against this text by T. S. Narayana Sastri (4a) have been dismissed as "scurrilous" and as "bazaar gossip". Note his discussion of the development of the Matha traditions. Note also that beyond a merely nominal link through Totapuri, the Ramakrishna Math monks are not connected to the Sringeri Matha in any way, and have no reason to support it over the Kanchi Matha. 6. D. N. Lorenzen, 1987, "Sankara." In, The Encyclopedia of Religion, vol. XIII, pp. 64-65. New York: Macmillan - where the Sankaravijaya of anantAnandagiri is described as constituting the "independent tradition of the Kanchi Matha". How, why and when this text has come to be exclusively associated with the Kanchi Matha should be evident from the following four entries. 7a. V. S. Ghate, 1924, "Sankaracarya." In, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, vol. XI, pp. 185-186. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons - where anantAnandagiri's text is referred to in great detail, but only the four standard Mathas are listed. That the text places Sankara's last days in Kanchipuram is mentioned in this article, as one variant tradition, noting that other texts mention Badri-Kedar in this regard. 7b. J. N. Bhattacharya, 1968, Hindu Castes and Sects, Calcutta: Editions Indian - reprint of 1896 edition. anantAnandagiri's text is referred to, but again, only the four standard Mathas are listed. 8. A. C. Burnell, 1880, A classified index to the Sanskrit mss. in the palace at Tanjore. London: Trubner & Co., p. 96 - where the Sankaravijaya of anantAnandagiri has been associated with "schismatic Mathas on the Coromandel Coast which have renounced obedience to the Sringeri Matha, where Sankaracarya's legitimate successor resides." Unless Burnell, a British colonial administrator, was also partisan towards Sringeri interests, I don't see how this comment can be seen as anti-Kanchi polemic. 9. N. Venkataraman, 1923, Sankaracarya, the great, and his successors at Kanchi. Madras: Ganesh & Co. - a description of the Kanchi succession, as found in sushamA, the Sanskrit source of the Kanchi list. Venkataraman dismisses the Sankaravijaya of anantAnandagiri as a "valueless forgery", perhaps keeping in mind Burnell's comments on this text. 10. N. Veezhinathan, 1971, anantAnandagiripraNItam SrI-Sankaravijayam. Madras: Center for Advanced Study in Philosophy, University of Madras - with a detailed introduction by T. M. P. Mahadevan, where Burnell's comments have been criticized. Here I will simply point out that S. Kuppuswami Sastri's edition of Mandana Misra's Brahmasiddhi (1982, Garibdas Oriental Series, Delhi; Satguru Publications, reprint of 1937 edition) has a preface by P. P. Subrahmanya Sastri, with information about anantAnandagiri's text that directly contradicts what Veezhinathan claims to be the only available reading (iti sarvAsu mAtRkAsu, in his footnote). Note that both the above-mentioned Sastris once served as curators at the Government Oriental Manuscripts Library in Madras, and refer to the same original manuscript as was sent to Veezhinathan from this library. Suffice to say that this so-called "critical" edition is nothing more than the Kanchi Matha's latest version of this text. It has certainly had a chequered history, from Burnell's comment about schismatic Mathas (1880), through Venkataraman's dismissal of the text as a forgery (1923), to Lorenzen's characterization of it as being exclusively associated with the Kanchi Matha (1987). 11. A. Cinkaravelu Mutaliyar, 1981. apitAna cintAmaNi: The Encyclopedia of Tamil literature. New Delhi: Asian Educational Services - where Sringeri has been described as the most important institution established by Sankara, and the Kumbhakonam Matha as a branch of Sringeri, while no mention is made of a Kanchi Matha. This is a reprint of an earlier 19th century edition. Thanks to Naga Ganesan for helping me locate this reference. Note that entries in this encyclopedia are based solely on Tamil sources. 12. Polakam Rama Sastri, 1976, Aticankarar mutal kAnciyil toTarntuvarum kuruparamparai (Tamil), Madras: Liberty Patippakam - where more anti-Sringeri polemic may be found. Note that Rama Sastri continuously refers to a "SAradA maTha" at Kanchipuram, although the Kanchi Matha conspicuously avoids using the word SAradA nowadays. The author, who was associated with the Madras Sanskrit College, also used to be the editor of "Kamakoti Pradeepam", a periodical published in all four south Indian languages. Contemporary Kanchi Matha followers who claim that there have been no polemical claims on their side need to look at old issues of this "in-house" magazine. Regards, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 13 11:07:09 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 04:07:09 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059083.23782.8137565951593304630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Part 2 of bibliography - 13. C. Kamakoti Sastri, 1981, SrI kAmAtci ampAL stala varalARu (Tamil), Madras: Shammi Syndicate Press - where Sankara is said to have established four Mathas at Sringeri, Puri, Dwaraka and Haridwar (note again the south Indian author's general lack of knowledge about the north - tradition places the main northern institution at Badrinath, not Haridwar). The author is the hereditary sthAnIka of the Kanchi Kamakshi temple. He is diplomatically silent about a Kanchi Matha, mentioning Sri Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati only in connection with the Kumbhabhishekam of the Bangaru Kamakshi temple in Tanjavur in the 1950's. 14. R. Krishnaswamy Aiyar and K. R. Venkataraman, 1977, The Truth about the Kumbhakonam Mutt, Madurai: Ramakrishna Press - the first English language publication from the Sringeri side that presents anti-Kanchi polemic. The first author also wrote a Tamil work in 1933 or so. Compare these dates with those of items 3, 4 and 12 in this list, which show that theirs is largely a response to the anti-Sringeri polemic from Kanchipuram. However, the authors stubbornly refuse to mention Kanchipuram, and talk only of the Kumbhakonam Matha, without clarifying that there is only one institution at both places. This has completely mislead C. J. Fuller (Servants of the Goddess, Cambridge University Press, 1984) and William Cenkner (item 21a below). 15. M. R. Bodas, 1923, SrI SankarAcArya va tyAMcA sampradAya (Marathi) Bombay, private publication - where it is held that the main southern institution should have been neither at Sringeri nor at Kanchipuram, but at Rameswaram, which is part of the notion of cAr-dhAm, along with Dwaraka, Puri and Badrinath. 16. Natalia Isayeva, 1993, Shankara and Indian Philosophy. Albany: SUNY Press - where she has wondered why a scholar of the stature of T. M. P. Mahadevan has involved himself with this polemic. She has also seriously questioned Hacker's contention that Sankara was a Vaishnava, and made into a Saiva only by hagiography. 17. L. Schmithausen, 1978, ed. Kleine Schriften (German), Wiesbaden: Steiner - containing Paul Hacker's articles on Sankara and Vidyaranya. Most of these have been translated into English and published as, Philology and Confrontation: Paul Hacker on Traditional and Modern Vedanta, Wilhem Halbfass, ed. and trans., 1995, Albany: SUNY Press. 18. Sengaku Mayeda, 1992, A Thousand Teachings: The Upadesasahasri of Sankara, Albany: SUNY Press - Author's translation of his critical edition of this Sankaran text. His extensive introduction is very good. Mayeda is also the author of the entry on Sankara in the current Encyclopedia Britannica. 19. G. C. Pande, 1994, Life and Thought of Sankaracarya, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass - one can have various opinions of this text, based on one's perspective. He argues for accepting a larger corpus of texts attributed to Sankara as genuine, but nowhere offers very strong arguments. My only major comment about it is that although he says he has taken up the suggestion of Prof. K. Satchidananda Murthy to handle the traditional material critically, Pande's treatment falls far short of his goal. 20. William Cenkner, 1983, A Tradition of Teachers: Sankara and the Jagadgurus today, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. My comments on this text may be found elsewhere. See . 21a. William Cenkner, 1992, "The Sankaracharya of Kanchi and the Kamakshi temple as Ritual center." In, Raymond B. Williams, ed. A Sacred Thread, Chambersburg, PA: Anima Publications - reads almost like an apologetic for the Kanchi Matha. 21b. Glenn Yocum, 1992, "The coronation of a Guru: Charisma, politics, and philosophy in contemporary India." In, Raymond B. Williams, ed. A Sacred Thread, Chambersburg, PA: Anima Publications - describing the 1989 coronation of the current Sankaracharya of Sringeri, from a anthropological structuralist perspective. The rest is conveyed by the title. 22. D. N. Lorenzen, 1983, "The Life of Sankaracarya." In, Fred W. Clothey and J. Bruce Long, eds., Experiencing Siva: Encounters with a Hindu Deity, 155-175. New Delhi: Manohar Publications - where the legend of Sankara as an incarnation of Siva is compared with the mythology of Krishna, and the Puranic avatAras of Vishnu. 23. Yoshitsugu Sawai, 1992, The faith of ascetics and lay smartas: a study of the Sankaran tradition of Srngeri, Sammlung de Nobili, Instituet fuer Indologie der Universitaet Wien (Institute of Indology, University of Vienna). 24. A. K. Shastry, 1982, A History of Sringeri, Dharwad: Karnatak University. Regards, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jun 13 13:54:16 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 06:54:16 -0700 Subject: Four maTha tradition Message-ID: <161227059088.23782.8934895425278787281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > cidvilAsa's SankaravijayavilAsa explicitly mentions that Sankara > established the four maThas. The text has been dated to the 15th > century by its editor, W. R. Antarkar, but I think it is probably > from the 17th century. This information is news to many non-advaita folks. Even Nehru talks of 4 mathams. It appears that this tradition comes from the Maratha period onwards only. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jun 13 14:22:00 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 07:22:00 -0700 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227059090.23782.5619150786240807884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SR> >He is said to have disappeared SR> >from view in some sense (exactly what remains unclear), and the date SR> >for this is established as 1317. --- Shrisha Rao wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > Maadhvic tradition puts antardhAna date at 1317 giving > > a full 120 years to Sri. Madhvacharya. > > No, it doesn't. What is your source? Consulting a Maadhva. Madhva himself says he was born in 4300 Kaliyuga. And, the statement that Madhva's antardhAna "is established as 1317" gives a long lifespan of about 120 years. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From sohum at MS.UKY.EDU Tue Jun 13 13:01:05 2000 From: sohum at MS.UKY.EDU (Avinash Sathaye) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 09:01:05 -0400 Subject: Conference Announcement and call for papers Message-ID: <161227059085.23782.10807586026283214002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> First Announcement International Ramayana Conference on Artistic, Cultural, and Literary Variations of Ramayana Worldwide April 6-8, 2001 at Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Illinois, USA Abstract Deadline: July 15, 2000 The Center for Southeast Asian Studies at Northern Illinois University, in cooperation with the International Ramayana Institute of North America (IRINA), is organizing a conference on Ramayana, April 6 - 8, 2001, at Northern Illinois University, DeKalb, Illinois. This conference will include presentations on various themes and workshops based on Ramayana. Planned Activities and Outline The Organizing Committee of the Conference is inviting scholars worldwide to submit proposals for presentations (talk) on the following proposed themes: 1. Effect of Ramayana on family relations. 2. Ramayana-related education and research efforts. 3. Inception of Ramayana in various countries. 4. Literary and poetic forms of Ramayana. 5. Effect of Ramayana on various cultures and civilizations. 6. Gender and political aspects of Ramayana. The workshops will be focused on the art and dance forms of Ramayana, and will feature the various dance styles and Ramayana painting of Asian countries, namely India, Thailand, Indonesia, Myanmar, and others. You are encouraged to provide your name if you are interested in workshop related to painting and dance. To encourage the participation of students, we will have poster session. Students are requested to submit title of presentation and one page of abstract. General Guidelines for the Speaker 1. Provide the name and complete address of the speaker along with the title of the presentation. Also provide a supporting statement about the presentation in the form of an abstract (one page). 2. The allotted time is 20 minutes for each presentation with 10 minutes for discussion. 3. Send all information to Ms. Julia S. Lamb with a copy to Dr. Subhash Pandey. Ms. Lamb is also the contact for conference registration information. Julia S. Lamb Outreach Coordinator Center for Southeast Asian Studies Northern Illinois University Adams Hall 404 DeKalb, IL 60115 USA TEL: (815) 753-1595 FAX: (815) 753-1776 E-MAIL: jlamb at niu.edu Send a copy of all correspondence to: Dr. Subhash Pandey, 9 South 164 Nantucket Dr. Darien, IL 60561 USA Phone: (312) 666-6500, ext. 3418 (Work) Fax: (312) 455-5877 Phone: (630) 241-.7918 (Home) Email: scpandey at uic.edu -- |Avinash Sathaye Phone:(606)277-0130(Home), (606)257-8832(Office) | Web page: www.ms.uky.edu/~sohum From tawast at ST1798.SPB.EDU Tue Jun 13 07:45:37 2000 From: tawast at ST1798.SPB.EDU (Sergey S.Tawaststjerna) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 11:45:37 +0400 Subject: "yakSAmah" - "let us gobble" ?? Message-ID: <161227059079.23782.13749248393810245979.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Coomaraswamy meant yakSAmaH=jakSAmaH (jakS- desider. of "ghas": to eat) jakSAmaH lit. "we want to eat". Best regards S.Tawaststjerna From shrao at NYX.NET Tue Jun 13 18:13:53 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 12:13:53 -0600 Subject: [q] Madhva In-Reply-To: <20000613142200.9231.qmail@web312.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227059095.23782.5879524965102165917.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > SR> >He is said to have disappeared > SR> >from view in some sense (exactly what remains unclear), and the date > SR> >for this is established as 1317. > > --- Shrisha Rao wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > > > > > Maadhvic tradition puts antardhAna date at 1317 giving > > > a full 120 years to Sri. Madhvacharya. > > > > No, it doesn't. What is your source? > > Consulting a Maadhva. Who exactly? > Madhva himself says he was born > in 4300 Kaliyuga. And, the statement that Madhva's antardhAna > "is established as 1317" gives a long lifespan of about 120 years. Very shabby reasoning. The time if his birth is also fixed as 1238, and tradition is still for 79 years; hence only do we have the latter date established as 1317. The period of 43 centuries is only approximate (note that Madhva says only that he was born after the passage of 4300 years, not that he was born in a specific year designated 4300: chatuHsahasre trishatottare gate saMvatsarANAM tu kalau pR^ithivyAM jAtaH punaH vipratanuH). If one says the Magna Carta is seven centuries old, that does not alter the date of the document to 1300 CE, although the statement is broadly accurate. Anyway, this matter has been discussed in detail in the HDSV and materials referred to therein; you could do better referring to them instead of coming to arbitrary and uninformed conclusions. Regards, Shrisha Rao > SM From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Tue Jun 13 18:25:31 2000 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 12:25:31 -0600 Subject: hitopadesha, pancatantra, jaataka, jaataka maala Message-ID: <161227059099.23782.7592351486974611150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, A friend of mine is looking for on line Sanskrit (or Pali) versions of the following texts: hitopadesha, pancatantra, jaataka, jaataka maala. are any of these texts available online? Thank-you in advance. B. Fleming From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Tue Jun 13 19:55:38 2000 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 14:55:38 -0500 Subject: Addresses Message-ID: <161227059097.23782.4711692312936260936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am requesting the addresses of Professors Paul Hacker, Karl Potter and Hermann Kulke on behalf of a friend. Thanks for the information-Narahari Achar From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Tue Jun 13 23:39:25 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 16:39:25 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059102.23782.2622109929646823117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > >Many books and wedding invitations of 20th century seek the blessing of the > >Kanchi Sankaracarya. Even an academic publication, "MM. Professor > >Kuppuswami > >Sastri Birth-Centenary Commemoration Volume- Part II" of the Kuppuswami > >Sastri Research Institute edited by S. S. Janaki (1985) praises Sankara, > >the > >Kanchi maTha's Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati, Jayendra Sarasvati, and > >Vijayendra Sarasvati. Is this simply a modern behavior? Is there any > >evidence > >in the Tamil tradition showing that such praising of the leader of a maTha > >one is affiliated with existed in the 13th century? > > What is currently happening in the Tamil south is quite unprecedented in its > scope. Apparently, the blessings of the Kanchi Acharyas are absolutely > necessary for the sun to shine and the wind to blow, to wake up in the > morning and to go to sleep at night. All very nice no doubt, for > guru-bhakti, but this is traditionally only expected of close disciples, not > out of every living being. It is perhaps a uniquely Tamil sentimentality. I > wouldn't know, although I'm Tamil myself, as I grew up elsewhere. Vidyasankar, I am quite disappointed by your comments. I suppose being weaned on the Kanchi-Sringeri polemic, and plain frustration at the greater popularity of the Kanchi math or more particularly the late Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati amongst TN folks, makes you lash out like this in response to Palaniappan's question. For, as you well know, it is customary among various groups of Brahmins hailing from TN, resident in TN or elsewhere (!), to seek the blessings of the Kanchi or the Sringeri acharyas in their marriage invitations. Seeking the blessings of the acharyas of either or both these maths, in person, before and after the wedding is just a regular affair without any other connotations. Kanchi just happens to be easier to access, and has additional advantages for procurement of silk sarees and dhotis, and hence probably gets more visitors than does Sringeri. How long this has been going on historically is anybody's guess. One would have to look at early invitations on paper or palm-leaf for evidence of this, but I suppose the practice of printed marriage invitations accelerated this trend. We would also have to see how the official announcement, typically read aloud during the engagement ritual, was structured in earlier times. As for as books, most of them seeking the blessings of the Kanchi acharyas, be it those of Raghavan (his kaavya of Muthuswami Dikshitar), Nagaswami (Siva Bhakti), Padma Subramaniam, N.Raghunatha Iyer, and various others have to do with the interaction of these scholars directly with the late Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati. I fail to see why the scholarly interactions that various people have had with him, and the respect they have thus developed which makes them seek their blessings in such ventures, should make one green with envy. I am sure that there are several books written within TN and outside, by Tamils and non-Tamils, that similarly seek the blessings of the Sringeri acharyas too. Prof.K.Satchidananda Murti's book Vedic Hermeneutics, to name one scholarly work, if I remember right, refers to the Sringeri acharyas. > ity alam, or as we say in Tamil - podum, podum, > Vidyasankar Leaving aside the posts of other detractors and distractors (sic), Palaniappan's posts seem to marshal various pieces of evidence that seriously question the historicity of the Sringeri matha. Maybe that irks you, and maybe you want to do a Bh.K style "nOr muiraa" on Palaniappan, but however sound or unsound the arguments and counter-arguments have been, they have been very informative and could very well provide a lot of source material for a future Ph.D thesis. As an aside, in these debates, I would not rush to frame charges of Tamil and non-Tamil motives all too easily... since it can easily lead to a counter-charge of an anti-Tamil motive. -Srini. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Jun 13 17:34:30 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 18:34:30 +0100 Subject: Compass in India Message-ID: <161227059093.23782.3478480841389456312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anybody know offhand when lodestones or the magnetic compass came into use in India ? Thanks, Stephen Hodge -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 14 02:27:27 2000 From: milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM (milton degeorge) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 00 19:27:27 -0700 Subject: Chutes and Ladders Message-ID: <161227059104.23782.10828908598992092882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you everyone for your comments on Chutes and Ladders. While on my honeymoon in Vermont, my mother-in-law (a local superintendent of schools) had heard of the game's connection to India and asked what I knew. Since I knew nothing I thought I'd ask my friends at RISA. Thanks again. Milton DeGeorge Jr. Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jun 14 05:58:30 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 01:58:30 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059106.23782.12563976104716046312.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Dr. Filliozat for sharing with us the interesting information on purANasAra. (My delay in responding to some issues raised in this thread was due to preparing a long response and losing it just before posting due to a system crash. I did not have time to retype it until now.) I am not a partisan of either Kanchi or Sringeri. Nor am I partial to any of advaita, visiSTAdvaita, zaivasiddhAnta or dvaita. While I am at home with Tamil and English materials, my hope was that with the collective expertise (including Kannada and Sanskrit) available among the list members, we can try to throw some light on this knotty problem. Having given this preamble, let me address two major issues. I split this into two postings. Vidyasankar said: What I wanted to explore was which was the more probable alternative among the two mentioned above. Based on the information provided by the discussion so far, I think as far as Sringeri is concerned, the latter is my choice. To me, whether it is made of brick and mortar or thatch, the central issue in the discussion is the geographical fixity of the establishment. (Here fixity is with respect to a village or city and not any building.) It is immaterial whether it is called a maTha or Azrama. In light of this, let us consider the following: I think if it is reasonable to expect the followers of Sankara to internalize saMnyAsa, it is also reasonable to expect them to internalize the parivrAjaka nature associated with it by Sankara. To me, the parivrAjaka nature and geographical fixity are mutually contradictory. So, we have to assume that these ascetics were wanderers unless and until we get evidence to the contrary. This occurs in the 14th century for Sringeri. (to be continued) Regards S. Palaniappan From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jun 14 06:26:25 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 02:26:25 -0400 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059109.23782.2505898187133756288.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As for the 13th century seal , Vidyasankar said: < The boar sign was in use till recently. AdivarAha is also said to be the deity of the southern AmnAya? More interestingly, the boar was the royal emblem of the Hoysalas in the 12th-13th centuries, and of the Chalukyas before them. In later times, it was adopted by the Mysore Wodeyars. Again, there seems to be a prehistory to the relationship between Advaita monks and Vijayanagara royalty. It is not an entirely new development in the 14th century.> This also serves to support the 14th century origin of the maTha. We know that the Hoysala queen donated some land to Bharatitirtha only in 1346, when the Hoysala rule was over. But we have an inscription (21 of 1891) of a Hoysala king vIra-rAmanAtha erecting a zaiva maTha at tiruvAn2aikkA for the zaiva pontiff, tatpuruSazivAcArya, the expounder of the SiddhAnta and disciple of svAmidEvar of the santAna of lakSAdyAya-rAvaLar. (See p.227 of "Development of Saivism in South India" by M. Rajamanickam, 1964.) We have an inscription of the Hoysala queen Somala Devi at Srirangam mentioning the gift of a garden. We have inscriptions issued by Hoysala officials also. If Hoysalas left an inscription endowing a zaiva maTha near Srirangam, we should expect comparatively more epigraphic evidence of their support to a maTha at Sringeri, if it existed during their heyday. Consider also what Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote on a different thread on Wed, 16 Jun 1999: So, if there was indeed a relationship between the advaita monks and the Karnataka rulers as quoted above, the absence of any such epigraphic evidence prior to the 14th century underscores the probable absence of a maTha. I believe, given Sankara's association of asceticism and wandering, logically, the burden of proof is on the traditionalists arguing for a pre-14th century existence of a maTha and not on those who question its existence in that period. To me, the traditionalists have not proved their case so far. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 14 12:46:21 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 05:46:21 -0700 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227059118.23782.945906521762835394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Very shabby reasoning. The time if his birth is also fixed as 1238, and > tradition is still for 79 years; hence only do we have the latter date > established as 1317. The period of 43 centuries is only approximate (note > that Madhva says only that he was born after the passage of 4300 years, > not that he was born in a specific year designated 4300: chatuHsahasre > trishatottare gate saMvatsarANAM tu kalau pR^ithivyAM jAtaH punaH > vipratanuH). Atleast in the mid-decades, Sanskritists have written that Madhva was born in kaliyug 4300 (around 1200 CE). Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Jun 14 17:13:51 2000 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 10:13:51 -0700 Subject: Indian English In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059123.23782.4146983827341333699.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A good place to start is Braj Kachru's The Indianization of English. It is a statistical and sociolinguistic study of the common features of Indian English. There has been a lot of work done in the field of Code-mixing/switching between Indian languages and English. Ira Pandit's monograph on Hindi-English Code-switching is an excellent document of this phenomenon. OUP Delhi recently published a collection of essays entitled South Asian English: Structure, Use and Users with articles by such notable authorities on contact and code-interaction as Kachru, Ferguson, Sridhar among others. Hope this helps, chandan narayan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "You couldn't fool your mother on the most foolingist day of your life, even if you had an electrified fooling machine. " On Wed, 14 Jun 2000, An Ber wrote: > Can anybody provide information about Indian English? e.g. phonetic > features, distribution of speakers, etc.? > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jun 14 09:32:19 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 10:32:19 +0100 Subject: Compass in India In-Reply-To: <004401bfd55d$a29df940$e795883e@default> Message-ID: <161227059111.23782.14640632232455083539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If memory serves, magnetism/lodestone is mentioned in the Vaiseshikasutras. I can give reference later today if needed. On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > Does anybody know offhand when lodestones or the magnetic compass came into use in India ? > > Thanks, > Stephen Hodge > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Jun 14 11:30:26 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 12:30:26 +0100 Subject: Addresses In-Reply-To: <394691BA.55EDE099@memphis.edu> Message-ID: <161227059113.23782.2460147258152276401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Narahari Achar wrote: > I am requesting the addresses of Professors Paul Hacker, Karl Potter and > Hermann Kulke on behalf of a friend. Thanks for the information-Narahari > Achar Paul Hacker died in 1979, so it is not so easy to detect his address nowadays ;-). Hermann Kulke teaches in the history department at the University of Kiel, Germany, so far I know. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE Wed Jun 14 12:15:07 2000 From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 14:15:07 +0200 Subject: Compass in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059116.23782.16047749428374353984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 7F00,0000,0000> Does anybody know offhand when lodestones [...] > came into use in India ? Some time ago I collected the following references to lodestones which now have to be updated: (a) Grammatical Literature: -0100,0100,0100- Mahaabhaa.sya ad Paa.n. 3.1.7 (ed. Kielhorn II, p. 15.3-4) (b) Medical Literature: -- Su"srutasa.mhitaa 7. Adhy., 11. section (ed. N.rpendranaathasenagupta, Kaalikaataa 1859, p. 58 = 15. section, ed. Naaraaya.n Raam Aachaarya ``Kaavyatiirth", Bombay 1945, p. 26) -- Vaagbha.tas A.s.taa"ngah.rdayasa.mhitaa I.25.39 (c) Dramas: -- Bhavabhuuti?s Uttararaamacarita IV.21 -- Bhavabhuuti?s 0100,0100,0100Maalatiimaadhava I.22.1-3 (ed. Coulson) (d) Gnomic Literature: -- Subhaa.sitaratnabhaa.n.daagaara (ed. Naaraaya.n Raam Aachaarya ``Kaavyatiirth", Bombay 81952), p. 256, v. 54 = Subhashitasudha-ratna-bhandagaram or Treasures of Sanskrit Poetry ([...] Compiled by Shivadatta Kaviratna. Bombay 1927), p. 67, v. 62 (e) Philosophical Literature: -- Pra"sastapaada [ed. Durgaadhara Jhaa, Ga"ngaanaatha-Jhaa- Granthamaalaa Vol. 1, Varanasi 1963, p. 740.4] -- Uddyotakara: Nyaayavaarttika 2.1.33 (ed. Vindhye"svarii Prasaada Dvivedii, Vaaraanasyaam 1916; p. 219.19-25; 220.5- 7). In an unpublished article the late Prof. Wilhelm Rau has collected the following references: -- Raghuva.m"sa: 17,63 -- Kumaarasa.mbhava: 2,59 -- Varaahamihira?s Pa"ncasiddhaantikaa (6.Jh.p.Chr.) 13,1 -- Kalha.na?s Raajatara"ngi.nii (1148 p.Chr.) 4, 185 With kind regards, Roland Steiner -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bergesa at GMX.DE Wed Jun 14 14:54:15 2000 From: bergesa at GMX.DE (An Ber) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 15:54:15 +0100 Subject: Indian English Message-ID: <161227059120.23782.5129462391863675182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anybody provide information about Indian English? e.g. phonetic features, distribution of speakers, etc.? From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 14 23:27:43 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 00 16:27:43 -0700 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059125.23782.8383757221075473079.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Gansten, Since the Bhagavatha p. was written in the Tamil south, a look into the Alvars' poetry will prove fruitful. Often times, it is hard to distinguish between Krishna and Vishnu in the classical Sangam corpus which predate Alvars by several centuries. In classical tamil lit., Vishnu is called "Maal"(= the black one). Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From marion.rastelli at OEAW.AC.AT Thu Jun 15 06:56:34 2000 From: marion.rastelli at OEAW.AC.AT (marion rastelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 08:56:34 +0200 Subject: ViziSTAdvaita Message-ID: <161227059130.23782.9241012517869724741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have the following questions related to ViziSTAdvaitavedAnta: 1) Are there editions of the following texts: - GuNaratnakozavyAkhyAna by ? - zrIraGgarAjastavavyAkhyAna by GargakulInarAmAnuja - VaradarAjastavavyAkhyAna by ? (all mentioned by AlaziGga BhaTTa in his commentary on the SAttvatasaMhitA)? 2) Where (apart from NyAyasiddhAJjana, Tattvatraya and the commentaries on them) can I find explanations or at least occurrences of the terms zAntodita and nityodita? 3) Is divyAtmasvarUpa a technical term in the tradition of ViziSTAdvaitavedAnta? If yes, in which text(s) does it appear? Yours, Marion Rastelli Austrian Academy of Sciences From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Thu Jun 15 07:39:07 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 09:39:07 +0200 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: <20000614232743.72590.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059133.23782.8782919324227626536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Since the Bhagavatha p. was written in the Tamil south, a look >into the Alvars' poetry will prove fruitful. The Bhagavata does not support this particular Krishnaite claim (despite strained exegeses on 1.3.28); nor, to my knowledge, do any other Puranas. Bhagavata 1.3.3-5 describes the source of all avataras (naanaavataaraa.naa.m nidhaanam) -- including Krishna -- as a particular form (bhagavato ruupa.m vizuddha.m sattvam) endowed with thousands of limbs, etc (sahasrapaadorubhujaananaadbhutam). The 10th skandha dealing with Krishna's life also explicitly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu (10.1.2: a.mzenaavatiir.nasya vi.s.no.h, etc). I can't say for sure about the Alvar writings as such, but the tradition which has perpetuated them -- Sri Vaishnavism -- does not regard Krishna as avatarin. To my present knowledge, such Krishnaite theology appears to be a North Indian phenomenon. As mentioned by Shrisha Rao (thank you, SR), Madhva -- another southern Vaishnava theologian -- explicitly rejects the doctrine. Interesting, that, considering that certain Gaudiyas trace their succession back to Madhva! Regards, Martin Gansten From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 15 16:47:45 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 09:47:45 -0700 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059146.23782.11184245387954803712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< The Bhagavata does not support this particular Krishnaite claim (despite strained exegeses on 1.3.28); nor, to my knowledge, do any other Puranas. Bhagavata 1.3.3-5 describes the source of all avataras (naanaavataaraa.naa.m nidhaanam) -- including Krishna -- as a particular form (bhagavato ruupa.m vizuddha.m sattvam) endowed with thousands of limbs, etc (sahasrapaadorubhujaananaadbhutam). The 10th skandha dealing with Krishna's life also explicitly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu (10.1.2: a.mzenaavatiir.nasya vi.s.no.h, etc). I can't say for sure about the Alvar writings as such, but the tradition which has perpetuated them -- Sri Vaishnavism -- does not regard Krishna as avatarin. To my present knowledge, such Krishnaite theology appears to be a North Indian phenomenon. As mentioned by Shrisha Rao (thank you, SR), Madhva -- another southern Vaishnava theologian -- explicitly rejects the doctrine. Interesting, that, considering that certain Gaudiyas trace their succession back to Madhva! >>> It is likely that Alvar poems or CT do not explicitly say that Krishna is the avatarin. However: When one reads sangam or alvar corpus, the Krishna themes dominate far exceeding in import than any other avatar. In Alvars, we can find Krishna theme more important than the rest of avatars inside a single poem when several avatars mentioned. It is also interesting that the "karumaNi" (black jewel) sleeping in Srirangam sung by the Alvars, or the "kaTalvaNNan" (god whose colour is like the sea, = Vishnu) of the buddhist maNimEkalai, that Vishnu is black is not found in Sanskrit, so much so, I think, that led F. Hardy (virahabhakti) to suggest that early Tamils knew only about Krishna avatar. Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jun 15 08:59:10 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 09:59:10 +0100 Subject: Central (Eur)Asian Studies - community building efforts... (fwd) Message-ID: <161227059136.23782.10399075461648295946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:10:29 -0400 From: John Schoeberlein Subject: Central (Eur)Asian Studies - community building efforts... Central (Eur)Asian studies has long been a field that is fragmented and underdeveloped, with its feet widely spread between Islamic/Middle Eastern studies, East Asian studies and Slavic/Soviet studies. We're trying to counteract this in a variety of ways, and as someone interested in "Central Eurasia," we thought you might be interested in some information about this. (If we have mistakenly identified you as someone interested in Central Eurasia, you might let us know, but don't feel that you have to, as this message is a one-time mailing and is not from an automatic mailing list). So our goal is to promote as wide involvement in these activities as possible. Please consider joining/contributing to... * 1 * Central Eurasian Studies Society -- This newly formed organization is devoted to promoting communication and improvement of scholarship in all fields of the humanities and social sciences pertaining to the region from the Crimea and the Caucasus in the west to Mongolia and Tibet in the east (including such places as: Iranian Azerbaijan, Volga Basin, Afghanistan, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Xinjiang, Tuva, Buryatia, etc.) - General information about the organization may be found at the CESS Website: . - The first annual meeting will be held this fall in Madison, Wisconsin -- information about this will soon be available on the CESS Website. - CESS will produce a bulletin, available on the Website and in print format. - Interested persons world wide are welcome to join and get involved -- and for scholars from the former Soviet Union, membership is free. - Visit to join CESS. * 2 * -- This is a comprehensive reference resource that will help you to learn about and orient yourself in worldwide study of this region. 13,000 people a month refer to this rich website. Visit: . And let us know if you are interested in joining the effort to build further on this resource by writing to . * 3 * Central-Asia-Inst-List -- This is a discussion list intended to promote cooperation and coordination in institutional initiatives in Central (Eur)Asian studies. To learn more, or to join, visit: , or write to . * 4 * CentralAsia-L Announcement List for Central Asian Studies -- This is the best source anywhere for information on activities and resources in Central Asian studies world wide (conferences, publications, grants, jobs, etc.). With 2,500 subscribers, it has grown since 1995 to have the widest readership of any similar medium in Eurasian studies. To learn more about how to distribute an announcement, or to subscribe (for free), visit , or write to . 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These are just a few of the initiatives that are under way to try to build communications and strong community and high intellectual standards among those focused on this part of the world. Please consider this also an invitation to join in collaboration and to let us know about similar projects that you are involved in. If it seems too much to absorb all at once, then you might just join CESS or subscribe to CentralAsia-L, and this will open the door so that you can learn about other resources in time... Thank you for your interest! John Schoeberlein ______________________________________________________________________________ Director, Forum for Central Asian Studies, Harvard University 1737 Cambridge Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 USA tel.: (617) 495-4338 fax: (617) 495-8319 e-mail: schoeber at fas.harvard.edu Acting Executive Secretary of CESS: http://cess.uno.edu/ Editor, : http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~casww/ Editor, : http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~casww/Subscribe_CA-L.html ______________________________________________________________________________ From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Jun 15 20:04:33 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 10:04:33 -1000 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059150.23782.10275507707030924803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Arun Gupta wrote: > "bhAv" is used in Hindi for both "price" and "feeling/emotion". > > According to the Oxford Hindi-English dictionary, "bhAv" in > Avadhi and Brijbhasa also has the meaning of "bhA" ( to be liked > or appreciated). And in Bombay Hindi, "bhAv mArna" means to act high and mighty (put on airs). e.g., "Kyaa re saala, bhaav maarta hai kya?" Raja. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Jun 15 05:03:10 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 10:33:10 +0530 Subject: [q] Madhva Message-ID: <161227059128.23782.9390088592129620459.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is likely that the passage of 4300 years was reckoned from the beginning of the Aryabhatian Kaliyuga, 3102 BC. Then the date of birth comes out to be circa AD1200 Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Swaminathan Madhuresan To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 6:20 PM Subject: Re: [q] Madhva >> Very shabby reasoning. The time if his birth is also fixed as 1238, and >> tradition is still for 79 years; hence only do we have the latter date >> established as 1317. The period of 43 centuries is only approximate (note >> that Madhva says only that he was born after the passage of 4300 years, >> not that he was born in a specific year designated 4300: chatuHsahasre >> trishatottare gate saMvatsarANAM tu kalau pR^ithivyAM jAtaH punaH >> vipratanuH). > > Atleast in the mid-decades, Sanskritists have written that >Madhva was born in kaliyug 4300 (around 1200 CE). > >Regards, >SM > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! >http://photos.yahoo.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 15 16:24:40 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 12:24:40 -0400 Subject: Intl. Assoc. for Ved. Stud.; Electr. study of texts In-Reply-To: <3945525A.7232EFE6@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227059142.23782.17523962124293036029.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I write to announce some important news and developments. * Since the spring of 1995, the EJVS list has functioned as vehicle to transmit, in an easily accesible format, the issues of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/. Mail volume, therefore, was quite slow. We will try to keep it that way and will try to avoid cluttering your mail boxes. * Recently, we have founded, at the 2nd International Vedic Workshop, held at Kyoto University in Oct/Nov. 1999, a professional organization, the International Association of Vedic Studies (IAVS). This is limited to bona fide scholars working in the field (at present, c. 100 members). Our invitatitions initially went to participants in the 1st workshop (Harvard 1989) and the 2nd one at Kyoto. Scholars who have not yet received an inviation, please respond to the item below, and join us. * We will use the EJVS mail list as a means to communicate with members. In this way, *all* members of EJVS as well as IAVS will receive interesting and important news about the field. However, the list will remain a MONITORED one, as to avoid unnecessary flaming & spam. All EJVS/IAVS members can post news & questions, but we will screen postings and we will rebroadcast them only then. In this fashion, we hope, the list will provide a useful service to all present and future members. If you have any questions, comments, complaints, please write. With warm regards, Michael Witzel (Ed.) ============================================================================== IAVS NEWS BULLETIN No.1 (June 15, 2000) (1) On June 12, a special issue of our sister journal, the *International Journal of Tantric Studies* has appeared that deals with current advances in using electronic means for textual study. It contains a paper by J.R. Gardner (Emory Univ., Atlanta). A related paper, specifically dealing with Vedic matters, will appear in EJVS soon. -- J.R. and I have been cooperating along these lines for some years now, and we see a bright future for collaboration in exploring the Vedic (and other) texts by using the new technologies. More on international cooperation in this field to follow. Comments are welcome! The IJTS paper is: "Magically Storming the Gates of Buddhahood: Extensible Text Technology (XML/XSLT) as a Simulacrum for Research" by Dr. John Robert Gardner. http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ijts/vol4_special/paper1.asp This issue will be free for 15 days. To subscribe to the IJTS look at http://www.asiatica.org CONTENTS: Introduction / Extensible Markup Language and the Birth of E-textnology / Specifics of XML / Extensible Stylesheet Language for Transformations and XPath / XSL Transformations and the Study of Mantra / Conclusion / Appendix 1: Tools and Resources for Working with XML and XSLT / Appendix 2: XPath Primer / Bibliography ABSTRACT: An (un)surprising conceptual parallel between Tantric and Vedic practices of mantra manipulation, and the very latest in computer information technology--XML, or Extensible Markup Language--provides scholars with unique new research possibilities. The well-known procedures by which mantras are selected and extracted for ritual application -- e.g., vidhaana -- as well as transposition and intertwining -- e.g., viharaNa -- can be almost directly translated into a powerful new computer tool, called Extensible Stylesheet Language for Transformations (XSLT) and used on electronic versions of shruti. The paper draws upon these functional parallels to introduce the reader to XML--which is very much like HTML--and then demonstrate the theory and application of ideas like viharaNa and vidhaana with electronic texts (full set is included with technical appendices) from the Rig Veda (specifically RV 3.62). Basic theory of XML, XSLT and XPath are introduced, explanations and links to required files and programs (all freeware), and a complete electronic Rg Veda in XML, with pre-written, adaptable XSLT scripts are included. ================================== ** ============================ (2) Query: Has anybody seen or can someone identify the following passage taken from an old palm leaf Ms., National Archives of Nepal, no. 1-1340, Veda section no. 309, Nepal German Manuscript Preservation Project film no. B 503/25. I only have my very old note which says: begin: devaa ha vai svargaM lokam agamaMs. te devaa rudram apRcchan: ko bhavaan iti... end: yo vai rudraH, sa bhagavaan, yaz ca suuryas, tasmai vai namo namaH. It is similar to a passage in KaTha AraNyaka. Not in TS, ZB, JB, etc. --- Struggling with several other deadlines, I have not yet checked all possibilities that might arise from Vishva Bandhu's Vedic word Concordance. Any help & comments welcome. Also for the passage, quoted somewhere in a late(?) Vedic text, that mentions that "the PuraaNa" starts with "Manur vai raajaasiid..." Where is that quote to be found? ================================= *** ============================== (3) A message to *bona fide* Vedic scholars: INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF VEDIC STUDIES (IAVS) As discussed during the final meeting of the well-attended 2nd Vedic Workshop at Kyoto in November 1999, we have established an International Association for Vedic Studies (IAVS), with Headquarters at Kyoto. * Membership is open to all scholars working in the field of Vedic Studies. * Founding members: Y. Ikari (Kyoto), President M. Witzel (Harvard), Secretary J.R. Gardner (Atlanta), WWW/communications J. Gippert (Frankfurt), Text Archives (initial) Board Members: H. Bodewitz (Leiden) T. Elizarenkova (Moscow) H. Falk (Berlin) A. Parpola (Helsinki) B. Oguibenine (Strasbourg) This list can and will be enlarged as to represent other nations where Vedic studies are not very prominent. We already have additional prospective board members for India, Israel, Italy; the list is to be announced soon. Further suggestions are welcome. Among the aims of the Association are the following: * A major goal is to further communication between members worldwide, to broadcast interesting news, and to answer pertinent questions. *One recurrent task of the Association will be to organize future Vedic Workshops and to publicize their results . * Publication of workshop results and other Association sponsored booklets, books, items on the web, and in regular, established series (HOS, Gonda series, etc.). * Collection of texts in manuscript form (films, photocopies) and in electronic form (at TITUS, http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/ ), and help in making them accessible to members. *Occasionally, the association may serve as pressure group when a reduction in Vedic or Sanskrit positions threatens in one of the member countries. * Membership is free, for the time being. This might have to be reviewed in the future. * The Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (EJVS, http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs) can serve as news bulletin, and also as a regular mailing list for current questions, inquiries, wishes, etc. Quick communication can proceed via this list: you are invited to post to it your queries, news, and reports that concern Vedic topics, mail address: We might rebroadcast a digest of such news via our web site: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs. As the list is set up *at present*, any message sent to it will be returned as "rejected'. Do not worry: M.Witzel automatically gets a copy of your message, and he will rebroadcast it to the list. The list also rejects automatically the many advertisements (spam) that we get on open lists. You can also send messages directly to and he will rebroadcast them to current IAVS/EJVS members. Please, send us any queries, suggestions, wishes. And, of course, do not hesitate to join us! M. Witzel Y. Ikari witzel at fas.harvard.edu ikari at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp ============================================================================= ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 8958 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Thu Jun 15 11:43:29 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 12:43:29 +0100 Subject: ViziSTAdvaita, zAntodita Message-ID: <161227059138.23782.3273644283505133559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ;saantodita as a dvandva occurs in Yoga-suutra 3.12. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 15 20:11:38 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 13:11:38 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059152.23782.2114320577865638042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidhya, please confirm the sources which you say are primary. As far I can see, the works that you've quoted as reference are mostly recent works which have researched ancient works. What the authors motives, biases were or the veracity of their interpretations/claims, cannot be confirmed without going through the original sources themselves. Advaita has an extensive literature right from the day of Shankara, right? Between Shankara and VidhyAranya there's atleast 700 years worth of Advaita material. And one would think that as important a thing as the mathas where the sampradhAyam was kept alive would have found mention in the works. Please show me a single pre-VidhyAranya/pre-Vijayanagara work which affirms the existence of the four mathas or the matha at Shringeri. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 15 22:31:54 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 15:31:54 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059156.23782.15378321769100209004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Some of my responses on this thread seem to have bitterly offended the sensibilities of some readers. I am sorry that I snapped, but believe it or not, I was neither weaned on the inter-matha polemic, nor does my reaction to the contemporary popularity of the Kanchi Matha involve resentment or frustration or envy. I don't wish to elaborate on the subject any more, at least on this forum. I have various comments, both from a traditional perspective and from a modern one. Interested readers may please visit . This page will be around for a month or so. Nanda Chandran asks for what are primary sources and what are secondary sources. I invite him to go through the sources listed in my previous mails and to the references listed in them, so that he can decide for himself what is primary, what is secondary and what the motivations/biases of the authors are. Whatever I say about it will be seen as being colored by own motivations and biases, so I prefer not to say any more about it. As for texts, I will only say that hagiographies aside, I have yet to find a single primary text which contains a reference to Mathas. Salutations to a specific teacher or a general paramparA - yes. Specific mention of a Matha at a particular location - no. This holds true even for a period in which we know that such Mathas were active. There is almost no correlation between the presence or importance of Mathas and evidence for them in the Advaita texts, even in the post-Vidyaranya period. I expect this to be the same in the pre-Vidyaranya period. If Nanda views this as indicating something about the Sringeri Matha, such absence indicates the same thing about all other Mathas, including the one at Kanchipuram. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jun 15 22:33:23 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 15:33:23 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059158.23782.10672448184855856923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One can always count on Palaniappan to raise the only pertinent issues in this discussion: >I think if it is reasonable to expect the followers of Sankara to >internalize saMnyAsa, it is also reasonable to expect them to internalize >the >parivrAjaka nature associated with it by Sankara. To me, the parivrAjaka >nature and geographical fixity are mutually contradictory. A very important point. In practice, the wandering is often quite circumscribed. It should not be seen as a case of being seized by wanderlust or as a nomadic life. There are some monastic rules that are observed in common across religious boundaries. Even before Sankara was born, various kinds of optima between wandering and geographical fixity had been achieved. For example, parivrAjakas are expected to stay put at one place during the cAturmAsya, i.e. the monsoon season. As an aside, Jain monks are the only ones who strictly follow this four month rule. All other orders go by a rule of two months, but still call it cAturmAsya. The Sankaran monastic orders have often been compared to the Buddhist vihAras. It is my opinion that more pertinent comparisons can be drawn with Jain orders, rather than Buddhist ones. Of course, something like sallekhana is not acceptable to the Dasanami Sannyasins, and the Jain view of ahimsA will be seen as an extreme position. With pra or pari prefixed to the root vraj, some of the ideas conveyed are simply of "leaving home" or "circumambulation" or "exile". The idea is only that the ascetic renounces home and family and voluntarily exiles himself from the society of gRhasthas. No further geographical implications need be read into it, except for giving up kinship and ownership rights over the homestead. It is sometimes achieved in quite symbolic ways, e.g. simply by going out of the agrahAra, or crossing a river. At some point, one reaches the position of attait tiNRu ankE kiTakkum. And after that, enkum pO vENTAm. And still later, after death, there is no going anywhere - na tasya prANA utkrAmanti. atraiva samavanIyante. These have always been the generic guiding principles behind the monastic orders. As for how these institutions are born and develop, one can cite two recent examples, traditional in some ways, and non-traditional in others. One is Ramana Maharishi. He left his home in Madurai, and he wandered for a while, but he didn't step out of Tiruvannamalai once he got there. Today there is a big establishment there, as also numerous people/institutions elsewhere in the world, claiming inspiration from him. Similarly with Nityananda in Ganeshpuri, Maharashtra. He just arrived there one day, and stayed. He didn't set out to establish an institution. Nevertheless, an institution grew around him, with designated successors and the inevitable succession controversy. Today, it is the high profile SYDA (Siddha Yoga), along with an unofficial spin-off, the less known Shanti Mandir. Rather than discussing how a balance is traditionally achieved between wandering and geographical roots, I will simply cite the following references, in addition to some of the texts listed in two of my earlier posts. Joachim F. Sprockhoff, Samnyasa: Quellenstudien zur Askese im Hinduismus (German), Wiesbaden: Steiner, 1976. viSveSvarasarasvatIkRtaH yatidharmasangrahaH, Pune: Anandasrama, 1980. Patrick Olivelle, ed. and trans., vAsudevASrama's yatidharmaprakASa: A treatise in world renunciation, Leiden: E. J. Brill, 2 vols. 1976-77. Kasinath Upadhyaya, The Dharmasindhu, Delhi: Sri Satguru Publications, Sri Garibdas Oriental Series No. 14, 1986 [reprint of 1907 edition]. G. S. Ghurye, Indian Sadhus, Bombay: Popular Book Depot, 1953. Haripada Chakraborti, Asceticism in ancient India in Brahmanical, Buddhist, Jaina, and Ajivika societies, from the earliest times to the period of Sankaracharya, Calcutta: Punthi Pustak, 1973. As the later saMnyAsa manuals cite the old dharmaSAstra texts frequently, perhaps Mahamahopadhyaya P. V. Kane's volumes on the History of Dharmasastras, and Prof. Olivelle's recent translation of four important dharmasUtra texts may also be consulted. Re: the 1235 inscription of Vidyasankara, with the boar emblem - >This also serves to support the 14th century origin of the maTha. Actually, the seal indicates that there already was a something, associated with Vidyasankara, in the 13th century. It remains to be seen where this something was, and what this something was. >the burden of proof is on the traditionalists arguing for a pre-14th >century >existence of a maTha and not on those who question its existence in that >period. To me, the traditionalists have not proved their case so far. I am resisting the temptation to enter into a discussion of philosophical views of absence and negation. I will only ask this much. Is the absence of evidence from an earlier time period a case of atyanta-abhAva (absolute non-existence), or is it only one of anupalabdhi (non-availability)? In other words, is the problem one of ontology or epistemology? In the present state of knowledge, there is zero inscriptional evidence prior to the 14th century for any Matha in the Advaita tradition, from anywhere in India. So let us say that the first such institution ever established in the Advaita tradition was the Sringeri Matha, and only in 1346 or so. Before this time, presumably, all the monks were wandering around, without setting up institutions anywhere. If so, why did a lone wandering ascetic need a seal, incorporating his personal name along with an official looking emblem, more than a century before this date? Something to think about. Perhaps, the conclusion to be drawn from all this is only that a detailed search for older evidence needs to be done. Perhaps people need to be looking for these things, rather than rushing to identify every painting/sculpture of an ekadaNDI saMnyAsin as a depiction of Adi Sankara. Interesting things are still turning up all over India. It is not as if the book of primary historical evidence has been permanently closed. That there has been a long history of academic interest in Advaita Vedanta has not even ensured the production of critical editions of Sankara's texts. Discussions of authenticity proceed merrily along, without the benefit of critical apparatus. To date, Sengaku Mayeda's edition of Upadesasahasri is the lone exception. Studies of the ascetic tradition associated with the Advaita philosophy continue to lag behind even further. I don't think I have anything more to say about this, without endlessly repeating myself. Best regards, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Thu Jun 15 13:45:12 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 15:45:12 +0200 Subject: [q] Madhva In-Reply-To: <20000614124621.21418.qmail@web311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227059140.23782.16506718706943933735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 14 Jun 2000, um 5:46 schrieb Swaminathan Madhuresan: > > Very shabby reasoning. The time if his birth is also fixed as 1238, > > and tradition is still for 79 years; hence only do we have the > > latter date established as 1317. The period of 43 centuries is only > > approximate (note that Madhva says only that he was born after the > > passage of 4300 years, not that he was born in a specific year > > designated 4300: chatuHsahasre trishatottare gate saMvatsarANAM tu > > kalau pR^ithivyAM jAtaH punaH vipratanuH). > > Atleast in the mid-decades, Sanskritists have written that > Madhva was born in kaliyug 4300 (around 1200 CE). This is so, and indeed the passage quoted from Madhva's Mahaabhaaratataatparyanir.naya by Shrisha Rao (on which the traditional dating was based) suggests just that. But there are other indications in favour of the date kaliyuga 4339. Bannanje Govindacharya (editor of the complete works of Madhva) has written a booklet that is now also available in an English version (_Madhwacharya_. Bangalore: Shri Bannanje Sanmana Samiti, Poorna Prajna Vidyapeetha, 1997. 39 pp., Rs. 20) and discusses the matter on pp. 30-31. A hagiographic text, the A.numadhvavijaya by H.r.siike;satiirtha, says tri;sataabdottaracatu.hsahasraabdeebhya uttare ekonacatvaari.m;saabde vilambisa.mvatsare (&c.) i.e., 4339. This agrees with Naraharitiirtha's ;Srikuurma inscription, which says that Madhva was 70 years old when he wrote his Tithinir.naya, and Govindacharya finds internal evidence in that text that it was written in 4409 (i.e., precisely 4339 + 70). Together with what B.N.K. Sharma mentions in his _Hist. of the Dvaita School of Vedanta and its Literature_ (chapter XI) concerning Madhva's relative chronology vis-?-vis Naraharitiirtha, I think the date kali 4339 (1238 CE) is quite solid. I am a bit surprised about the assumption that Madhva would have lived till the age of 120, since I have not read that before. Raamaanuja is said to have lived so long, and I wonder whether the two acharyas have been confused. RZ Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Jun 15 19:05:48 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 20:05:48 +0100 Subject: Etymology and meaning of bhAv in NIA languages Message-ID: <161227059148.23782.6855494813624588774.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "bhAv" is used in Hindi for both "price" and "feeling/emotion". According to the Oxford Hindi-English dictionary, "bhAv" in Avadhi and Brijbhasa also has the meaning of "bhA" ( to be liked or appreciated). -arun gupta From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Jun 16 01:09:02 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 02:09:02 +0100 Subject: Compass in India Message-ID: <161227059161.23782.16544362295919677792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to those who kindly provided me with useful information and references concerning the knowledge and use of lodestones and magnetism in India. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jun 16 09:17:28 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 05:17:28 -0400 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000615093907.007a4b10@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227059163.23782.17701850152464362428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Martin Gansten wrote: > The Bhagavata does not support this particular Krishnaite claim (despite > strained exegeses on 1.3.28); nor, to my knowledge, do any other Puranas. > Bhagavata 1.3.3-5 describes the source of all avataras > (naanaavataaraa.naa.m nidhaanam) -- including Krishna -- as a particular > form (bhagavato ruupa.m vizuddha.m sattvam) endowed with thousands of > limbs, etc (sahasrapaadorubhujaananaadbhutam). The 10th skandha dealing > with Krishna's life also explicitly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu > (10.1.2: a.mzenaavatiir.nasya vi.s.no.h, etc). It really seems quite significant that in the entirety of the 18,000 verses of the Bhagavatam, the primary (and often exclusive) text of the Krishnaite schools, there is only that one line (1.3.28) that clearly pronounces that Krishna is the source of other aMSas, as opposed to being an aMSa himself (I'm not sure I agree that this would be a strained reading of this particular verse, at least, although no doubt Madhva and the post-Ramanujans would have their own way of accounting for it -- do you have any of their commentaries on hand?) Elsewhere, an unstrained reading of the text would seem to point to Vishnu as the supreme. The first 9 cantos, all of which deal with the stories of other incarnations, does not, to my knowledge, refer to them as Krishna's incarnations, but seems to connect them to Narayana/Visnu. Even in the 10th, the frequent eulogies to Krishna invariably bring in the fact that he is Naryana, the Supreme Person. What is of interest is the several references in the 10th to Krishna as BhagavAn coming as aMSena. The instrumental case of the latter could be taken to mean he is BhagavAn coming *by means of* his aMSa in the form of Krishna, viz, that Krishna is the aMSa of BhagavAn (NArAyaNa), or it could mean Krishna is BhagavAn coming *accompanied by* his aMSa, which is taken by the Krishnaite commentators (including the pre-Gaudiya Sridhar, by the way, who is clearly advaitic in places) to refer to SaNkarSaNa -- BalarAma. To my mind the former -- that Krishna is the aMSa of NArAyaNa, seems just as likely a reading, if not more so. What would be useful would be a compilation of other places in the Bh.P as well as in other texts where the instrumental of aMSa is used (ie in contexts not connected with Krishna and sectarian sensitivities) to see whether it is ever used in the latter sense. I am translating the 10th and am now curious to check back and see if the term aMSa is ever even explicitly connected with SaNkarSaNa at all. But what is just as significant is the tension in the Krishnaite commentaries accounting for the term aMSa. The wide variety of differing interpretations offered to account for it while preserving Krishna's supremacy as aMSin, in itself shows discomfort (even, on occasion, as with Jiva and Vishvanath, construing it as if it were aMSin which is not what the text says!). See Noel Sheth's "KRSNa as a Portion of the Supreme" in PurANa, vol XXIV.1. All in all, and despite the erudition of the Vallabha, Nimbaraka and Chaitanya exegetes, the Bh.P texts itself shows surprisingly little grounds for considering Krishna to be the Supreme, as opposed to an incarnation of the supreme. The Gita makes a better case. On the other hand, Dennis Hudson seems to think the Vasudeva School is the older one, so I need to revisit his work. Edwin Bryant From jbapat at MELBPC.ORG.AU Thu Jun 15 21:46:22 2000 From: jbapat at MELBPC.ORG.AU (Jayant Bapat) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 07:46:22 +1000 Subject: Manuscript of the Jnanasamhita of the Sivapurana Message-ID: <161227059154.23782.560378175046985298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members I have been working on the Jnanasamhita of the Sivapurana which was last printed in Maharashtra and in Bengal in the 1890s. I would be grateful for any information on the MSs of this Samhita. As per Hazra, no MS has been found in Bengal. Does someone know of one elsewhere in India? Jayant Bapat Dr. Jayant B. Bapat 44 Campbell Street, Glen Waverley, 3150.Victoria, Australia email- jbapat at melbpc.org.au Fax:61-3-9884-4055 From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Jun 16 15:10:48 2000 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 08:10:48 -0700 Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059180.23782.14759114383292113278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would argue that because Dravidian does not have an aspirated set of obstruents, /h/ is written following dental (unaspirated) stops in order to distinguish it from the retroflex. I find this phenomenon most rampant in personal names, for example, /gAyatrI/ > "Gayathri", /anantarAm/ > "Anantharam." It is either "hyper-Sanskritization" or simply a method of distinguishing the dental stop from a retroflex. The case of KannaDa, for example, becomes complicated, for it has a complete set of aspirated consonants in its orthography. I conducted an informal study (on my parents) on the contrastive nature of aspiration in KannaDa. Their pronunciation of Skt. borrowings varied freely between aspirated and unaspirated when the Skt. original exhibited aspiration. For example, /ghaNTe/ > Ka. [ghaNTE] ~ [ganTE] 'bell', /kathe/ > Ka. [kathe] ~ [kate] 'story', etc. There were no instances where Skt aspirate was contrasted, semantically, with the unaspirated. This, to me, calls into question the very notion of aspiration in KannaDa. Sociolinguistically, it is plausible that caste/education may play a role in reproduction of a Skt. aspirated "original." Both my parents are Iyengars with higher degrees, so I was a bit confused by this apparent free-variation, for one would expect that education probably implies knowledge of the historical antecedent of the borrowing. Chandan Narayan chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "You couldn't fool your mother on the most foolingist day of your life, even if you had an electrified fooling machine. " On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Allen W Thrasher wrote: > I notice that South Indian publications when using Anglicisations or > informal Romanizations of Sanskrit terms often add h after d dental > and possibly t dental. Why is this? Could it be that since English t > and d are alveolar rather than really dental and so are in between > Indic dentals and retroflexes, the h brings the tongue forward against > the teeth and so to the Dravidian speaker represents a dental better, > whereas an English dental would sound closer to a retroflex? > > Allen Thrasher > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > > Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE > Southern Asia Section LJ-150 > Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 > Library of Congress U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 > Email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. > From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Jun 16 14:22:35 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 10:22:35 -0400 Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations Message-ID: <161227059178.23782.1884952191582118336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I notice that South Indian publications when using Anglicisations or informal Romanizations of Sanskrit terms often add h after d dental and possibly t dental. Why is this? Could it be that since English t and d are alveolar rather than really dental and so are in between Indic dentals and retroflexes, the h brings the tongue forward against the teeth and so to the Dravidian speaker represents a dental better, whereas an English dental would sound closer to a retroflex? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Fri Jun 16 10:08:43 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 12:08:43 +0200 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059166.23782.40206248514838905.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >there is only that one line (1.3.28) that clearly >pronounces that Krishna is the source of other aMSas, as opposed to being >an aMSa himself (I'm not sure I agree that this would be a strained >reading of this particular verse, at least, although no doubt Madhva and >the post-Ramanujans would have their own way of accounting for it -- do >you have any of their commentaries on hand?) Regrettably, no. But note that the verse in question does not even pronounce Krishna to be 'a source of other amshas'. It runs: ete caa.mzakalaa.h pu.msa.h k.r.s.nas tu bhagavaan svayam / Here, 'a.mzakalaa' is oppsed to 'bhagavaan svayam', not to 'a.mzin' or any such term. And a.mzakalaa need not be taken as a dvandva compound; it might be a determinative, which would remove any inconsistency in relation to the verses describing Krishna as an amsha of Vishnu. Furthermore, there is the question of what 'ete' refers to. In my view, it would most naturally refer to the categories listed in the immediately preceding verse: .r.sayo manavo devaa manuputraa mahaujasa.h / kalaa.h sarve harer eva saprajaapatayas tathaa // The list of specified avataras (twenty in the past, of Krishna is the latest, and two -- Buddha and Kalki -- yet to come) came to an end with verse 25, followed by the statement in verse 26 that the avataras of Hari are innumerable, like thousand of water-streams, etc. Then in verse 27 there is this mention of the apparently inferior manifestations known as kalaas, comprising rishis, manus, and so forth. And in verse 28 it is pointed out that Krishna -- the latest avatara and main subject of the Bhagavata -- does not belong to this category of (a.mza)kalaa, but is Bhagavan himself. This need not be construed as contradicting the statement earlier in the chapter that all avataras (among which Krishna is listed) have their source in a cosmic divine form with thousands of arms, etc -- and indeed, such a contradiction would have been surprising. This was my reason for talking of 'strained exegeses'. >What is of interest is the several references in the 10th to Krishna as >BhagavAn coming as aMSena. The instrumental case of the latter could be >taken to mean he is BhagavAn coming *by means of* his aMSa in the form of >Krishna, viz, that Krishna is the aMSa of BhagavAn (NArAyaNa), or it could >mean Krishna is BhagavAn coming *accompanied by* his aMSa, which is taken >by the Krishnaite commentators (including the pre-Gaudiya Sridhar, by the >way, who is clearly advaitic in places) to refer to SaNkarSaNa -- >BalarAma. Yes. I agree with you that the former reading is more likely, and that a compilation of parallel usages of a.mzena should clear it up. >the Bh.P texts itself shows surprisingly little >grounds for considering Krishna to be the Supreme, as opposed to an >incarnation of the supreme. The Gita makes a better case. Agreed -- at least if the latter is taken out of its epic context. Regards, Martin Gansten From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Fri Jun 16 13:40:36 2000 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:40:36 +0100 Subject: Delhi Historical Society Message-ID: <161227059170.23782.7567713201252256617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone know the address and name of the member-secretary of the Delhi Historical Society? From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Fri Jun 16 13:42:17 2000 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:42:17 +0100 Subject: None Message-ID: <161227059173.23782.15200620848932496048.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can anyone recommend a source for detailed line drawings and/or paintings of vastupurusa as an anthropomorphic form? I've seen a few designs of the vastupurusa in this form on class charts, etc. in India but have not seen them in any published form. Thanks. From shrao at NYX.NET Fri Jun 16 20:44:09 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:44:09 -0600 Subject: Long Vedic sacrifices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059183.23782.14804814876696960198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Greetings. The vArttika on the ashhTAdhyAyI of Panini, and its commentary by Patanjali, contain a puzzling reference to certain Vedic rites that took hundreds or thousands of years to perform: vArttika: aprayukte dIrghasatravat.h | bhAshhya: yadyapi aprayuktAH avashyaM dIrghasatravallaxaNenAnuvidhaH | tad.h yathA -- dIrgha satrANi varshhashatikAni varshhasahasrikANi cha | na chAdyatve kashchidapi Aharati | kevalaM R^ishhisampradAyo dharma iti kR^itvA yAj~nikaH shAstreNAnuvidadhate | Translation by Surendranath Dasgupta: (In the matter of the consideration of) words not in usage the maxim of long sacrifice applies. (To this the Bhasya comments) -- there are indeed words which are not in usage (but in this matter) the maxim of long sacrifice must be followed. Thus there are indeed long sacrifices extending over hundred or thousand years but no one in these days takes to them. The sacrificial priests give instructions about them only because there is merit in the study of the Vedas. Source: The Mahabhasya of Patanjali: With Annotations; Ahnikas I-IV; Surendranath Dasgupta; ed. Sibajiban Bhattacharyya; Indian Council of Philosophical Research, New Delhi, 1991. ISBN 81-215-0530-3, pp. 44. (This is a late posthumous publication of a work that was left unfinished by Dasgupta's untimely death.) Patanjali is clearly describing a state of affairs, to wit, the instructions by sacrificial priests of sacrifices that were impossible to perform, which existed for all to see. Perhaps they exist even now but are not well known outside the community of traditional Vedic scholars. My question therefore is: is it known exactly what sacrifices Patanjali refers to which were (are?) covered in the teaching tradition although never performed? I would appreciate any references to articles or monographs having a bearing on this issue. Regards, Shrisha Rao From shrao at NYX.NET Fri Jun 16 20:54:08 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:54:08 -0600 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059185.23782.12630116914357745241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Edwin Bryant wrote: > an aMSa himself (I'm not sure I agree that this would be a strained > reading of this particular verse, at least, although no doubt Madhva and > the post-Ramanujans would have their own way of accounting for it -- do > you have any of their commentaries on hand?) Martin Gansten has already given a long explanation of this which is broadly correct. See http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/gita/bg1041.html for actual commentary by Madhva, etc. One point to note is that per Madhva, the eleventh chapter (vishvarUpa-adhyAya) of the Bhagavad Gita contains a vindication of his position that ``Krishna'' is not merely to be understood to refer to an individual limited in time and space, and that the qualities of the `vishva-rUpa' given there applied to Krishna generally and at all times, though Arjuna only realized them at that time. This differs from the understanding of Gaudiyas and others who aver that the `vishva-rUpa' was (an apparently unimportant) material creation for the benefit of Arjuna. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Edwin Bryant From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Jun 16 14:01:21 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 16:01:21 +0200 Subject: Bibliographic references Message-ID: <161227059175.23782.1742314003359161287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of Indology! I am embarking on a small research project concerning the Skt absolutive (gerund). I would greatly appreciate any bibliographic references to papers/books treating this subject that have been published during the last 5 years. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From harishb at SASI.COM Fri Jun 16 10:52:36 2000 From: harishb at SASI.COM (Harish B) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 16:22:36 +0530 Subject: Iyers / Iyengars Message-ID: <161227059168.23782.2252427562292974859.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hi I want some information how iyers and iyengars (tamil brahmin castes) originated and differ in their beliefs ,customs etc Is there anywhere i can find comprehensive information? Thanks in advance Harish B From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jun 16 22:36:23 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 18:36:23 -0400 Subject: Long Vedic sacrifices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059188.23782.17065145242515586543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Found at the end of Pancavimsa Brahmana: long Sattras, of a 1000 years (VizvasRj?) , and a longer one by Prajapati.... Engl. transl. by W. Caland, PB, Calcutta 1931 >The vArttika on the ashhTAdhyAyI of Panini, and its commentary by >Patanjali, contain a puzzling reference to certain Vedic rites that took >hundreds or thousands of years to perform: > > vArttika: aprayukte dIrghasatravat.h | > > bhAshhya: yadyapi aprayuktAH avashyaM dIrghasatravallaxaNenAnuvidhaH | > tad.h yathA -- dIrgha satrANi varshhashatikAni > varshhasahasrikANi cha | na chAdyatve kashchidapi > Aharati | kevalaM R^ishhisampradAyo dharma iti kR^itvA > yAj~nikaH shAstreNAnuvidadhate | > ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Jun 17 16:55:30 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 12:55:30 -0400 Subject: Cross referencing Message-ID: <161227059194.23782.17643208673525276606.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those of you publishing online journals may find this useful: http://www.crossref.org./ -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Jun 17 13:40:26 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 15:40:26 +0200 Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059191.23782.13577878943010081447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 16 Jun 2000, um 10:22 schrieb Allen W Thrasher: > I notice that South Indian publications when using Anglicisations or > informal Romanizations of Sanskrit terms often add h after d dental > and possibly t dental. Why is this? Could it be that since English t > and d are alveolar rather than really dental and so are in between > Indic dentals and retroflexes, the h brings the tongue forward against > the teeth and so to the Dravidian speaker represents a dental better, > whereas an English dental would sound closer to a retroflex? Most probably this is because the English alveolar sounds more retroflex than dental to the Indian ear (it is also one of the main features that creates an 'English accent' when an Anglosaxon speaks a continental European language). Typically, English words containing 't' and 'd' are always transliterated in Kannada script (and in Tamil, and in Urdu and Bengali and Gujarati and perhaps everywhere else in South Asia too) as though they are retroflexes. On the other hand, the two English fricatives which are both written 'th' are bewildering but sound dental. The difference between aspirated and unaspirated dental 'd' and 't' in Kannada is considered to be of little phonemic importance, if of any at all, unlike in north Indian languages. Though one ought to distinguish them in careful pronunciation, many speakers do not do so (cf. a parallel situation in Europe with voiced and unvoiced 'z' and 's' in Dutch): particularly the less educated do this; in the case mentioned by Chandan Narayan, it probably is due to Tamil influence, since in Tamil aspiration plays no role. The retroflex- dental difference is far more important, and so the confusion that 'th' may stand for an aspirated consonant is considered the lesser evil. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li From shrao at NYX.NET Sun Jun 18 01:28:36 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 19:28:36 -0600 Subject: Long Vedic sacrifices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059196.23782.4985405651108495256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 16 Jun 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > Found at the end of Pancavimsa Brahmana: long Sattras, of a 1000 years > (VizvasRj?) , and a longer one by Prajapati.... > > Engl. transl. by W. Caland, PB, Calcutta 1931 Thanks much; I'm aware of a reference in the Brhadaranyaka U., III.8.10 which however could be taken as a rhetorical statement; will need to check out yours for something that's not presented as a counterfactual. yo vA etadaxaraM gArgyaviditvA asmi.Nlloke juhoti yajate tapastapyate bahUni varshhasahasrANyantavadevAsya tadbhavati | yo vA etadaxaraM gArgyaviditvAsmAllokAtpraiti sa kR^ipaNaH | atha ya etadaxaraM gArgi viditvAsmAllokAtpraiti sa brAhmaNaH || Translation by S.C. Vasu (AMS Press, NY, 1974): Whosoever not seeing (knowing) this Aksara, O Gargi performs sacrifices, offers prayers to gods, or practices austerities for thousands of years, all that work of his is sure to come to an end. An object of pity is surely he, who departs from this world, O Gargi, having no knowledge of this Aksara. But he, O Gargi, who departs from this world having seen (known) this Aksara, becomes indeed a Mukta (Brahmana). Regards, Shrisha Rao > >The vArttika on the ashhTAdhyAyI of Panini, and its commentary by > >Patanjali, contain a puzzling reference to certain Vedic rites that took > >hundreds or thousands of years to perform: From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Sun Jun 18 06:09:03 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 23:09:03 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059199.23782.16573985053192849372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > I have various comments, both from a traditional > perspective and from a modern one. Interested readers may please visit > . In the diatribe pointed to here, the angst expressed at the ex-President of India R.Venkataraman possibly heading the consitution review panel could be deleted, given that ex-Justice Venkatachaliah is now heading the panel. -Srini. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jun 18 11:24:03 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 00 04:24:03 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059202.23782.14153037049589090500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srini Pichumani wrote: > > . > >In the diatribe pointed to here, the angst expressed at the ex-President >of >India R.Venkataraman possibly heading the consitution review panel could be >deleted, given that ex-Justice Venkatachaliah is now heading the panel. Done. Thanks for the update. Mea culpa. I was relying on my memory of old information. But seriously, Srini, it is my turn to be disappointed, just a little, in the word you choose to describe what is essentially an issue-based set of questions. Please also do check some of the books I listed earlier, although I have kept the really vitriolic publications by partisans of both Mathas out of my list. Note also the sweeping comments by one list-member, who was thoroughly confused between Madhva and Madhava, just about a month ago, and on this very list. I suppose the yathArtha-vAdi really is a bahujana-virodhI. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Mon Jun 19 15:30:55 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 10:30:55 -0500 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059209.23782.1010557798250517240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Unless you can give a web site address for people to read this or you can summarize with sufficient detail, it does not really seem to be a reponse to the question. > I posted the above remark on a list for Gaudiya Vaishnava scholars to get > some feedback. One of the responders, Swami B.V. Tripurari, invited Mr. > Gansten to read Krsna-sandarbha. He said, "Don't attack the Gaudiya > tradition without first reading its philosophical foundation articulated in > the Sandarbhas. If he has read them, and KS in particular on this issue, > then where is his refutation?" > > Another responder agreed, "Tripurari Maharaja is quite correct. Jiva Gosvami > has exhaustively established the Gaudiya understanding of Krsna as the > Original Personality of Godhead in the Krsna Sandarbha. The arguments are > found in Anuccheda > 28-41. Jiva Gosvami compares the verse ete camsa...to a great king who can > defeat hundreds of enemies (opposing arguments). He then brings in 'the > multitude of arguments that forms the footsoldiers, calvary, chariot > warriors and elephant riding warriors of his army.' Whoever wants to dismiss > this brilliantly reasoned (and lengthy) response of Jiva Gosvami either > hasn't read it or is too intimidated to address it." > > Best wishes, > > Chris Beetle > From bvi at AFN.ORG Mon Jun 19 15:50:06 2000 From: bvi at AFN.ORG (Chris Beetle) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 11:50:06 -0400 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059207.23782.17240212625438315651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 09:39 AM 6/15/00 +0200, Martin Gansten wrote: >The Bhagavata does not support this particular Krishnaite claim (despite >strained exegeses on 1.3.28); nor, to my knowledge, do any other Puranas. >Bhagavata 1.3.3-5 describes the source of all avataras >(naanaavataaraa.naa.m nidhaanam) -- including Krishna -- as a particular >form (bhagavato ruupa.m vizuddha.m sattvam) endowed with thousands of >limbs, etc (sahasrapaadorubhujaananaadbhutam). The 10th skandha dealing >with Krishna's life also explicitly portrays him as an avatara of Vishnu >(10.1.2: a.mzenaavatiir.nasya vi.s.no.h, etc). I posted the above remark on a list for Gaudiya Vaishnava scholars to get some feedback. One of the responders, Swami B.V. Tripurari, invited Mr. Gansten to read Krsna-sandarbha. He said, "Don't attack the Gaudiya tradition without first reading its philosophical foundation articulated in the Sandarbhas. If he has read them, and KS in particular on this issue, then where is his refutation?" Another responder agreed, "Tripurari Maharaja is quite correct. Jiva Gosvami has exhaustively established the Gaudiya understanding of Krsna as the Original Personality of Godhead in the Krsna Sandarbha. The arguments are found in Anuccheda 28-41. Jiva Gosvami compares the verse ete camsa...to a great king who can defeat hundreds of enemies (opposing arguments). He then brings in 'the multitude of arguments that forms the footsoldiers, calvary, chariot warriors and elephant riding warriors of his army.' Whoever wants to dismiss this brilliantly reasoned (and lengthy) response of Jiva Gosvami either hasn't read it or is too intimidated to address it." Best wishes, Chris Beetle From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 19 22:14:39 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 15:14:39 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059213.23782.11289077073310054541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have kept the really vitriolic publications by partisans of both >Mathas >out of my list. Note also the sweeping comments by one list->member, who >was thoroughly confused between Madhva and Madhava, just >about a month >ago, and on this very list. What! Now it's me who's responsible for your smear campaign against the KAnchi matham? I've at the most written probably a couple of mails on this issue against the years of such work you've been doing on the same subject. And I've nothing against any of the mathams and my family reveres the AchAryas of all the mathams. Infact my father's direct grand uncle was a former ShankarAchArya of Puri and my family makes regular trips to Shringeri. It is just that I was terribly irritated by your constant diatribe against the KAnchi matham. And contrary to your allegations, my questions were basically logical ones and not taken off any KAnchi matham publication. Actually till date I've never read any of their publications. And I hardly have any confusion about Madhva the dvaitin and Madhava the advaitin. It's just that somebody replied to my post about the latter, with a reference to the former. I thought the person was mistaken and in that process I made a mistake. Anyway, what's that got to do with you trying to undermine the KAnchi matham? >I suppose the yathArtha-vAdi really is a bahujana-virodhI. Yeah, yeah, whatever I may be, you can atleast be man enough to stand up for your actions instead of blaming somebody else for it. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jun 19 23:01:35 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 16:01:35 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059215.23782.8516544148346622411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Contrary to what some readers think, I am not into a smear campaign or a diatribe against the Kanchi Matha. My comments are always issue-based, and should be seen as part of the checks and balances one needs in anything, if it is to remain healthy. I have been characterized as saying that the Kanchi Matha is "fake." That is not my contention. All I say is that it is "new," relatively speaking. Some of its claims are surely fake, but not the institution itself. When I say that the 5th century BCE date for Sankara is untenable, and discuss why this is so, I get accused of being polemical. Somehow, the idea seems to be that the older something is claimed to be, the better it is. The followers of Dwaraka and Puri Mathas should also be criticizing me, as they also hold to this date. But I don't see that any of them really care about it. >AchAryas of all the mathams. Infact my father's direct grand uncle was a >former ShankarAchArya of Puri and my family makes regular trips to >Shringeri. Please read comments by the contemporary successor of your father's grand uncle in Hinduism Today (http://www.hinduism-today.com/1997/11/#gen373). Regards, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Mon Jun 19 16:56:23 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 18:56:23 +0200 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000619155006.00da1a0c@pop3.afn.org> Message-ID: <161227059211.23782.8901948939675915020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to Chris Beetle: This is not a confessional list devoted to Vaishnava apologetics. My request was for information (facts) concerning the doctrines of two medieval schools of Hindu thought, namely those of Vallabha and Nimbarka (not Caitanya). The question of Bhagavata exegesis came up only because another poster referred to that text, seemingly implying that it espouses a Krishnaite (as opposed to Vishnuite) theology, which it does not. It is ridiculous to state that I have 'attacked the Gaudiya tradition'. This is not a place for such attacks, nor for repudiations; nor is it acceptable in a scholarly forum to assume that the correct understanding of a religious text (such as the Bhagavata) rests only with the commentator/s of one particular sect. I will not respond further to this type of argument. Regards, Martin Gansten From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 20 05:31:51 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 22:31:51 -0700 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059217.23782.2067347089187792020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote: >Regrettably, no. But note that the verse in question does not even >pronounce Krishna to be 'a source of other amshas'. It runs: > ete caa.mzakalaa.h pu.msa.h k.r.s.nas tu bhagavaan svayam / Dear Martin, You might want to check 1. brahmavaivartapurANa, where Krishna is avatArin and higher in hierarchy than Vishnu. See also related comments by David Kinsley in "The Sword and the Flute." This is perhaps old news to you. 2. vallabha's tattvadIpa and self-commentary, in addition to subodhinI. Krishna for him is basically the author of the gItA, which has here gained a status higher than the Vedas. His position on Krishna as avatArin also has to be carefully interpreted, as he argues against svajAtIya, vijAtIya and svagata bheda even between bhagavAn and antaryAmin. So he may not necessarily say that Krishna as avatArin is higher than Narayana/Vishnu. 3. nimbArka - I haven't seen many publications of his texts, but S. N. Dasgupta's third volume of "History of Indian Philosophies" gives valuable details, and is perhaps more easily accessible. 4. vijnAnabhikshu's vijnAnAm.rta also quotes the above bhAgavata verse, but looks at it in a very different manner. He makes brahmA, vishNu and mahezvara to be lower in hierarchy than bhagavAn, but in interpreting bhagavAn svayam, he says Krishna is equivalent only to Vishnu, "putravat". 5. Finally, to get to my favorite subject, Advaita, note that Sankara also uses the word a.mza in his gItAbhAshya introduction - "sa AdikartA vishNuH nArAyANAkhyaH ....... devakyA.m vasudevAd a.mzena kRshNaH kila sambabhUva." He soon qualifies this statement with the phrases "svA.m vaishNavI.m mAyA.m triguNAtmikA.m vazIk.rtya," "dehavAn iva" and "jAta iva". These "iva" qualifications anticipate the later verse, "ajo'pi san" etc. But elsewhere in the same bhAshya, he also says, "paramArthatattva.m vAsudevAkhyam" and "vaishNava.m padam," when referring to liberation. Again, no hierarchy is evident between Krishna/Vasudeva on the one hand and Vishnu/Narayana on the other, even though the word a.mza is used. Regards, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Tue Jun 20 07:15:21 2000 From: martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Martin Bemmann) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 09:15:21 +0200 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059222.23782.1991275171900583714.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To my knowledge Prof. Schlingloff does not have an E-mail address of his own. But try indology at lrz.uni-muenchen.de to reach his institute. Regards, Martin Bemmann Yaroslav Vassilkov schrieb: > > Dear colleagues, > could anybody give me the E-mail address of Professor Dieter > Schlingloff? > Thanks in advance. > Ya.V. > --- > Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) > Institute of Oriental Studies > Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:56 +0300 MSK -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences >Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html From george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Tue Jun 20 07:42:56 2000 From: george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (George Baumann) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 09:42:56 +0200 Subject: address In-Reply-To: <2000Jun20.110200@YV1041.spb.edu> Message-ID: <161227059224.23782.16681508977586206782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Vassilkov, I do not have an e-mail address of Prof. Schlingloff, but his address is: August-'Bebel-Strasse 2, 09526 Olbernhau, Tel.: 037360-75654. Regards, George Baumann > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:02:00 +0300 > Reply-to: Indology > From: Yaroslav Vassilkov > Organization: Institute of Oriental Studies > Subject: address > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear colleagues, > could anybody give me the E-mail address of Professor Dieter > Schlingloff? > Thanks in advance. > Ya.V. > --- > Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) > Institute of Oriental Studies > Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:56 +0300 MSK > ___________________________________________________________ Dr. G. Baumann Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: +7071-2972587 Fax: +7071-293123 ___________________________________________________________ From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Tue Jun 20 08:14:05 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 10:14:05 +0200 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? In-Reply-To: <20000620053152.99606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059229.23782.6321696278989663000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidyasankar, Thank you very much for these references. This is precisely the sort of thing I was looking for. I particularly appreciate your point regarding Vallabha's rejection of bhagavad-antaryaami-bheda. >Finally, to get to my favorite subject, Advaita, note that Sankara also >uses the word a.mza in his gItAbhAshya introduction ... Again, no hierarchy is >evident between Krishna/Vasudeva on the one hand and Vishnu/Narayana on the >other, even though the word a.mza is used. Right. This seems to be the general stance not only of Advaita, but of the 'greater tradition' overall, including southern Vaishnavism and the puranas/agamas/etc. (The Brahmavaivarta passage that you mention is an interesting exception; would you know the exact reference?) Regards, Martin Gansten From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Jun 20 08:02:00 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 11:02:00 +0300 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059220.23782.13216832088826519948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, could anybody give me the E-mail address of Professor Dieter Schlingloff? Thanks in advance. Ya.V. --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:56 +0300 MSK From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Jun 20 10:19:38 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 15:49:38 +0530 Subject: Two papers Message-ID: <161227059232.23782.3093094932057460765.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, please see attached text. -- Himanshu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Tue Jun 20 08:20:05 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 16:20:05 +0800 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059226.23782.934168442191080562.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As to my knowledge, Prof. Schlingloff - who is now retired - does not have an email, and moreover he is not staying in Muenchen anymore. His address is: August-Bebel-Str. 2 09526 OLBERNHAU Germany -----Original Message----- From: Martin Bemmann [mailto:martin.bemmann at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE] Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 3:15 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: address To my knowledge Prof. Schlingloff does not have an E-mail address of his own. But try indology at lrz.uni-muenchen.de to reach his institute. Regards, Martin Bemmann Yaroslav Vassilkov schrieb: > > Dear colleagues, > could anybody give me the E-mail address of Professor Dieter > Schlingloff? > Thanks in advance. > Ya.V. > --- > Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) > Institute of Oriental Studies > Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:56 +0300 MSK -- Martin Bemmann Heidelberg Academy for the Humanities and Sciences >Rock Carvings and Inscriptions along the Karakorum Highway< Karlstr. 4 - D-69117 Heidelberg Germany mailto:martin.bemmann at urz.uni-heidelberg.de http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~u71/kara/welcome.html From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 20 23:41:54 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 16:41:54 -0700 Subject: Krishna as avatarin? Message-ID: <161227059239.23782.7180886238309893560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >This seems to be the general stance not only of Advaita, but of the >'greater tradition' overall, including southern Vaishnavism and the >puranas/agamas/etc. (The Brahmavaivarta passage that you mention is an >interesting exception; would you know the exact reference?) See prakRti khaNDa and kRshNajanma khaNDa of the purANa - Sacred Books of the Hindus, vol 24, (2 parts), Allahabad: S. N. Vasu, 1920-22. Also see discussions in J. N. Farquhar, An Outline of the Religious Literature of India, Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1967, and S. K. De, Early History of the Vaishnava Faith and Movement in Bengal, from Sanskrit and Bengali Sources, Calcutta: K. J. Mukhopadhyaya, 1967. Re: my earlier remarks about checking S. N. Dasgupta's volumes for nimbArka - you can take them as a general overview of each school, but if you want to find out who said what and how, don't rely on it exclusively. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Jun 21 06:21:46 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 23:21:46 -0700 Subject: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India Message-ID: <161227059242.23782.15428668313039877962.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've often seen c. 1200 BCE reported as the putative date for the introduction of iron into India. How well grounded, in fact, is this date? What methods were used in arriving at it? Can someone point me to some recent detailed discussions? The little I know concerns the exploitation of ore deposits nearly a millennium later, in the Mauryan period. One reason I'm asking the question is because recent work by Don Wagner (for some bibliography, see http://staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/) redates the arrival of non-meteoric iron in China to a surprisingly late period -- c. 600 BCE. This makes me curious as to whether the traditional c. 1200 BCE date for India isn't way too early. I run into the same question when I think of the curious mix of bronze and iron culture still evident in the Homeric corpus, whose final redaction came in the second quarter of the first millennium BCE. (The exact dates are still disputed, but the tendency is to move them towards the middle of the millennium; even more radical moves forward in dating are taking place in China.) In Central Asia, the older literature puts the arrival of iron at c. 800 BCE, but I don't yet know what more recent scholarly trends are like there. In any event, the dates in India are obviously critical due to the part they continue to play in dating Vedic sources. I'd very much like to take a look at the evidence. Can someone point me to the most recent scholarly studies? Thanks in advance, Steve Farmer From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 21 15:01:30 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 08:01:30 -0700 Subject: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India Message-ID: <161227059251.23782.1904466238028427203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Archaeologists from India have pushed smelted iron back in time; these early iron will make it that smelting was first invented in the Vindhyas, is it not? Have chemists and archaeologists from outside India verified these datings? --- Steve Farmer wrote: > I've often seen c. 1200 BCE reported as the putative date for the > introduction of iron into India. How well grounded, in fact, is this > date? What methods were used in arriving at it? Can someone point me > to some recent detailed discussions? The little I know concerns the > exploitation of ore deposits nearly a millennium later, in the Mauryan > period. > > One reason I'm asking the question is because recent work by Don > Wagner (for some bibliography, see http://staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/) > redates the arrival of non-meteoric iron in China to a surprisingly > late period -- c. 600 BCE. This makes me curious as to whether the > traditional c. 1200 BCE date for India isn't way too early. I run into > the same question when I think of the curious mix of bronze and iron > culture still evident in the Homeric corpus, whose final redaction > came in the second quarter of the first millennium BCE. (The exact > dates are still disputed, but the tendency is to move them towards the > middle of the millennium; even more radical moves forward in dating > are taking place in China.) In Central Asia, the older literature puts > the arrival of iron at c. 800 BCE, but I don't yet know what more > recent scholarly trends are like there. > > In any event, the dates in India are obviously critical due to the > part they continue to play in dating Vedic sources. I'd very much like > to take a look at the evidence. Can someone point me to the most > recent scholarly studies? > > Thanks in advance, > Steve Farmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jun 21 13:33:28 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 09:33:28 -0400 Subject: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India In-Reply-To: <39505E00.2BB7157F@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227059249.23782.9412375838645101386.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See discussion by: Chakrabarti, Dilip K. Iron in early Indian literature, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 1979, 22-30 <> ----, The Early Use of Iron in India, Delhi : Oxford Univ. Press 1992 ---, Distribution of iron ores and the archaeological evidence of early iron in India. JOURNAL OF THE ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL HISTORY OF THE ORIENT 20: 166-84. For the Vedic sources, see esp., the late W. Rau, under translation into Engl. now: Rau, W., Zur vedischen Altertumskunde, Akad. d. Wiss. Mainz, Abh. d. Geist. u. Soz.wiss. Kl. 1983 No.1, Wiesbaden 1983 Rau, W., Metalle und Metallgera"te im vedischen Indien, Akad. d. Wiss. Mainz: Abh. d. Geist. u. Soz.wiss. Kl. 1973, No.8, Wiesbaden 1974, pp. 649-682 In general, the RV has only (non-gold/silver) "metal" (ayas) ; but from the Atharvaeda onwards, we have zyaama ayas/ kRSNa ayas 'the black metal"= iron, and therefore now also: lohita ayas 'the red metal for copper/bronze; ... see already Vedic Index. Arch.s now believe that iron entered India from the hills of the Vindhyas, not from Iran. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jun 21 08:21:13 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 10:21:13 +0200 Subject: SV: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India Message-ID: <161227059244.23782.5029461559292949560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello Steve, I don't know if these two sources might be of interest to you: Agrawal, D. P. 1982. The Archaeology of India. Vol. 46, Scandinavian Institute of Asian Studies Monograph Series. London: Curzon Press. Sinor, Denis. 1998. The Bronze Age & Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern Central Asia. In Journal of Indo-European Studies Monograph Series No. 26, edited by A. N. Z. Victor H. Mair, Elena E. Kuzmina. Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Jun 21 17:55:30 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 10:55:30 -0700 Subject: SV: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India Message-ID: <161227059256.23782.9545755345761750666.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Lars, Thanks very much for the references. I'll look at them today. I didn't know about Sinor's study, but there is Mair again! God knows how many indispensable cross-cultural collections he has edited. I'd like to point out that my post was forwarded to Dan Wagner (whose work was mentioned in my inquiry) by someone on the list. Prof. Wagner emailed me pointing out that he has recently revised his views of the dating question in China. He referred me here -- and I recommend to everyone -- his 1999 article posted at http://staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/EARFE/EARFE.html. Dr. Wagner summarizes his point (but please read the article yourselves) by saing that instead of an independent invention in the southeast, new archaeological evidence indicates introduction from Central Asia (more problems for the OITers) possibly "in the 8th or 9th century BCE." He modestly adds that he doesn't know enough about India to say anything there, but would supposed that he would have put iron in India around the same time. There is much to think about (after much study!) here in dating Vedic literature, given the importance long given to the traditional 1200 BCE date in India. Underline "after much study." > Hello Steve, > > I don't know if these two sources might be of interest to you: > > Agrawal, D. P. 1982. The Archaeology of India. Vol. 46, Scandinavian > Institute of Asian Studies Monograph Series. London: Curzon Press. > > Sinor, Denis. 1998. The Bronze Age & Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern > Central Asia. In Journal of Indo-European Studies Monograph Series No. 26, > edited by A. N. Z. Victor H. Mair, Elena E. Kuzmina. > > Lars Martin > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Jun 21 17:37:56 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 13:37:56 -0400 Subject: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India Message-ID: <161227059254.23782.2924994587064830412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A recent overview can be found in: Possehl, Gregory L. and Gullapalli, Praveena: "The Early Iron Age in South Asia", in Vincent Piggott, editor: *The Archaeometallurgy of the Asian Old World*. University Museum Monograph 89, MASCA Research Papers in Science and Archaeology Volume 16. Philadelphia: The University Museum, University of Pennsylvania, pp.153-175. 1999. It has interesting discussion of pyrotechnology and metallurgy. Best, George Thompson From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jun 21 21:13:24 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 17:13:24 -0400 Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations Message-ID: <161227059262.23782.15426005921974659490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all those who have responded to my question on this. By the way, it's interesting to look at a language next door to Kannada which Robert Zydenbos cites. In Molesworth's Marathi and English dictionary (1st ed. 1831 I think) there are a great number of cases in which there are two forms of the same word or two words with the same meaning, varying only by whether a consonant is a retroflex or the corresponding dental, or an unaspirate or the corresponding aspirate. I wonder if in a the past century and a half or more since then hypersanskritization has made one of these drop out of speech in favor of the one that would correspond closer to Sanskrit. Allen Thrasher From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Jun 22 01:12:16 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 18:12:16 -0700 Subject: Don Wagner's Work Message-ID: <161227059267.23782.15379396800600470980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Let me spend one of my two daily allotted Indology posts by correcting an egregious typo. In an earlier post on iron I was clearly referring to the work of *Don* and not *Dan* Wagner. No perfect Vedic "tape recorder" in these parts. Author's deserve to have their names spelled correctly. Thanks to the many people who sent me long lists of references on iron and the Vedic dating question. Once I work through the literature, I'll post if I find anything new of relevance. On the data in China, useful for comparative purposes, see again Don Wagner's article at http://staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/EARFE/EARFE.html Steve Farmer From jhr at STACKPOLE.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jun 21 18:58:56 2000 From: jhr at STACKPOLE.FREESERVE.CO.UK (John Richards) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 19:58:56 +0100 Subject: Java inscriptions Message-ID: <161227059259.23782.16750576069791258956.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Nash of Bristol University is trying to establish the language, and if possible meaning of some inscriptions he has found in Java. I attach a very reduced scan of a photo of one of them. If anyone thinks he/she may be able to help, I would suggest they get in touch with Dr. George Nash direct - at georgejayne at lineone.net I am sure someone among such a learned assembly will be able to at least give a clue! John Richards -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Inscription.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jun 21 23:34:08 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 00 00:34:08 +0100 Subject: Harappan Gold Message-ID: <161227059265.23782.5718888730196285115.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Harappans may not have had iron but they seem to have had a lot of gold. Does anybody have further information about the estimated 3 tonnes of gold jewellery judt found in Mandi, Uttar Pradesh ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jun 23 08:49:34 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 09:49:34 +0100 Subject: Job advertisement Message-ID: <161227059269.23782.7829293544585843457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:29:34 -0400 From: Christopher Minkowski SOUTH ASIAN NARRATIVES IN FILM, LITERATURE, HISTORIOGRAPHY The Society for the Humanities and the Asian Studies Department at Cornell University invite applications for a Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowship for a one year period beginning July 1, 2001. Candidates should be engaged in research projects on narratives in South Asian film, literature, and / or historiography. Candidates should also conduct at least part of their research in one of the South Asian languages other than English. Some preference will be given to scholars who rely on Bengali, Hindi-Urdu, Nepali, Sinhala, and / or Sanskrit. The fellowship offers a stipend of $30,000. While in residence at Cornell, postdoctoral fellows hold department affiliation, and have limited teaching duties and the opportunity for scholarly work. Candidates must have received the Ph.D. degree after September 1995. Fellowships are limited to citizens of the United States, Canada, or those with permanent U.S. residency cards. All application materials, including letters of recommendation, must be postmarked on or before January 3, 2001. Full details of the Mellon Fellowships at Cornell, including application procedures, are available at the website: http://www.arts.cornell.edu/sochum/html/melloninstruct.html Or by contacting the Program Administrator, Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowships, Cornell University, Society for the Humanities, A.D. White House, 27 East Avenue, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853-1101. Telephone: 607-255-9274. Email: humctr-mailbox at cornell.edu From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Jun 23 08:00:48 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 13:30:48 +0530 Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations Message-ID: <161227059272.23782.9362429471670948424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Devanagari script has four sounds; t dot,th dot: t,th.If you wish to write Indian words without using diacritics, you must do with only two Roman combinations: t and th.Hindi does away with distiction between t and t dot.,e,g, t serves different purposes in tota (parrot) and chattan (rock).Similarly th and th dot are seved by th...South indian languages ,on the other hand, distinguish between t and t dot by using t and th respectively. They do not need sybols for th as in thali, and so on. Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Allen W Thrasher To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:58 PM Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations >I notice that South Indian publications when using Anglicisations or >informal Romanizations of Sanskrit terms often add h after d dental >and possibly t dental. Why is this? Could it be that since English t >and d are alveolar rather than really dental and so are in between >Indic dentals and retroflexes, the h brings the tongue forward against >the teeth and so to the Dravidian speaker represents a dental better, >whereas an English dental would sound closer to a retroflex? > >Allen Thrasher > > > >Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > >Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE >Southern Asia Section LJ-150 >Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 >Library of Congress U.S.A. >tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 >Email: athr at loc.gov > >The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the >Library of Congress. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 24 00:14:25 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 17:14:25 -0700 Subject: "Buddha" Message-ID: <161227059274.23782.7459980580350660123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The reference to the Buddha in the GaudapAdiya KArikA is a highly controversial topic. It is asserted by traditionalists that "Buddha" refers to Lord NArAyana or a "wise one". Though the word "Buddha" does mean "awakened" or "wise one" and it might have been used in pre Buddhist literature, can the learned members confirm whether this trend was followed i.e, the use of the word "Buddha", by non Buddhist schools after the advent of the historical Buddha. So was it after the historical Buddha only Buddhist schools used the term and after him the other schools ceased to use the term to indicate their wise ones? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Jun 24 03:25:46 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 00 20:25:46 -0700 Subject: Dates of non-meteoric iron in India Message-ID: <161227059280.23782.3440393830161859609.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote, on the introduction of iron in India: > A recent overview can be found in: > > Possehl, Gregory L. and Gullapalli, Praveena: "The Early Iron Age in South > Asia", in Vincent Piggott, editor: *The Archaeometallurgy of the Asian Old > World*. University Museum Monograph 89, MASCA Research Papers in Science and > Archaeology Volume 16. Philadelphia: The University Museum, University of > Pennsylvania, pp.153-175. 1999. I've spent the day with this volume, George. The whole of it, which is just hitting the libraries, is essential reading. The redefinitions in the volume of what is *meant* by "bronze" and "iron" ages, etc., are surprising and far-reaching. The volume underlines the difficulties in India of dating questions involving iron technology, due to complex regional issues that are just starting to be understood. The article in the volume by Bennet Bronson on the introduction of iron in China, based in part on Don Wagner's 1993 work, should be read in conjunction with Wagner's newly revised views, already pointed to at http://staff.hum.ku.dk/dbwagner/EARFE/EARFE.html. Below, I give the table of contents of the volume in jpeg format. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: toc.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 21930 bytes Desc: not available URL: From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Sat Jun 24 07:09:08 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 00:09:08 -0700 Subject: "Buddha" Message-ID: <161227059284.23782.14979708381957696599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I see two underpinning questions here: (1) When did the term ?Buddha? first gain currency in India? And whether or not this was before or after the time of Gautama, (2) At what time did the Buddha-cult adopt the term as an appellation for their culture-hero, who was more or less viewed as the Embodiment of Enlightenment. I do not know what indications there are that Gautama was referred to as "Buddha" during his lifetime. Ven Tantra _______ nanda chandran wrote: The reference to the Buddha in the GaudapAdiya KArikA is a highly controversial topic. It is asserted by traditionalists that ?Buddha? refers to Lord NArAyana or a ?wise one?. Though the word ?Buddha? does mean ?awakened? or ?wise one? and it might have been used in pre Buddhist literature, can the learned members confirm whether this trend was followed i.e, the use of the word ?Buddha?, by non Buddhist schools after the advent of the historical Buddha. So was it after the historical Buddha only Buddhist schools used the term and after him the other schools ceased to use the term to indicate their wise ones? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 24 11:52:44 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 04:52:44 -0700 Subject: "Buddha" Message-ID: <161227059287.23782.17801877727228972310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does this have anything to do with the origins of Mahayana? And, the representations of the Buddha in sculpture as a human being. Regards, V. Iyer <<< I see two underpinning questions here: (1) When did the term ?Buddha? first gain currency in India? And whether or not this was before or after the time of Gautama, (2) At what time did the Buddha-cult adopt the term as an appellation for their culture-hero, who was more or less viewed as the Embodiment of Enlightenment. I do not know what indications there are that Gautama was referred to as "Buddha" during his lifetime. Ven Tantra >>> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP Sat Jun 24 02:17:16 2000 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 11:17:16 +0900 Subject: Info on satyavacana Message-ID: <161227059277.23782.16906568655174507850.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I am looking for some simple information on the notion of satyavacana in classical Indian thought in general and if possible in Buddhist thought, literature, etc. Thank you very much in advance for any thoughts, bibliographical data or references. Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jun 24 20:19:32 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 13:19:32 -0700 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059296.23782.4710141442640724770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On June 24, 2000, D.N.Jha wrote: >Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI >(Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated Also: 1. Donald A. Nelson, The Brhatkatha: a reconstruction from BrhatkathaslOkasmgraha, PeruGkatai and Vasudevahimdi PhD thesis, 1974, Univ. of Chicago. (Don't know where Don is). 2. R. Vijayalakshmy, A study of the Perunkatai, an authentic version of the story of Udayana. Int. Inst. of Tamil Studies, Madras, 1981 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Sat Jun 24 16:55:34 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 16:55:34 +0000 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059293.23782.667200670159650476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On June 24, 2000, D.N.Jha wrote: >Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI >(Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated *The VasudevahiNDi. An Authentic Jain Version of the BRhatkath?.* [Tr.] by Jagadishchandra Jain. Ahmedabad 1977. 740 p. L. D. Series 59. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jun 24 12:10:43 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 17:40:43 +0530 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059290.23782.1319163285557702299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI (Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated into English or Hindi.I will be grateful for precise reference. Regards, D.N.Jha Professor of History University of Delhi Email: dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Sat Jun 24 22:37:47 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 00 22:37:47 +0000 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059299.23782.15616958351629953439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On June 24, 2000, D.N.Jha wrote: >Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI >(Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated ... [?] Also, (in full?) into Gujarati, by Sandesara Bhogilal. Shri Jain Atmanand Sabha, Bhavnagar 1945. Also, (not in full) into Norwegian: *En bunt indiske eventyr* by Sten Konow. Oslo 1946. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jun 25 12:14:58 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 08:14:58 -0400 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059302.23782.7685199457529977257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> By chance last night I came across the article "What the Jaina Sources Can Teach Us" in "Indian Studies, Selected Papers of G. Roth, Ed. by Bechert and Keiffer-Pulz, 1986, Shri SatGuru Publications". In this article G. Roth discusses the VasudevahiNDI and gives a reference "Sandesara, B.J., Cultural Data in the VasudevahINDi, a prAkrit Story-Book by sanghadAsagaNi in: Journal of the Oriental Institute, Baroda, Vol. 10 (1961) pp. 7-17" which he says contains statements by Sandesara about his translation into Gujarati. Roth also says "He [Sandesara] is the most experienced in this field as he was fortunate enough to read the whole text [vasudevahINDi] with Muni PuNyavijayajI, and translated it into Gujarati (BhAvanagar, 1946)..." Roth also gives the reference "L. Alsdorf, The vasudevahiNDi, a Specimen of Archaic jaina-mahArASTrI in: Indian and Iranian Studies, presented to G. A. Grierson, London, 1936, p. 320. The same, Der Vedha in der VasudevahiNDi, in : Festschrift Friedrich Weller- Asiatica, Leipzig, 1954, pp. 1-11." Roth also says that he hasn't seen either this Gujarati translation or Dr. Jains english translation. Best wishes, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 >From: Sven Ekelin >Reply-To: Indology >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: VasudevahiNDI >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:37:47 +0000 > >On June 24, 2000, D.N.Jha wrote: > > >Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI > >(Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated ... [?] > >Also, (in full?) into Gujarati, by Sandesara Bhogilal. >Shri Jain Atmanand Sabha, Bhavnagar 1945. > >Also, (not in full) into Norwegian: >*En bunt indiske eventyr* by Sten Konow. Oslo 1946. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG Sun Jun 25 18:14:38 2000 From: a018967t at BC.SEFLIN.ORG (Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 14:14:38 -0400 Subject: South Block In-Reply-To: <01BFDEC4.F61FD1E0.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227059307.23782.1675386487253544814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse has written as follows: >Could anybody on the list tell me whether the term "South Block" refers to >the Ministry of Foreign Affairs ("State Department") in Dehli, or to the >Ministry of Defense? Ministry of Foreign Affairs ("State Department") in Dehli Have a peaceful and joyous day. Aditya Mishra Primary email: a018967t at bc.seflin.org Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya ICQ # 1131674 Phone #: (954)746-0442 Fax # (209)315-8571 Random thought of the day: Grub first, then ethics. ... Bertolt Brecht From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jun 25 20:15:40 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 16:15:40 -0400 Subject: SANSKRIT broadcasts/M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059310.23782.11578412447270137782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those who like modern Sanskrit: (1) Allindia Radio broadcasts Sanskrit news every morning (since 1974), at c. 9:30 pm EST (Summer time), that is c. 1:30 p.m. UTC, out of Delhi, on medium wave, relayed via internet at: http://air.kode.net/ choose live audio: http://air.kode.net/live.html and again: live audio! The news usually starts a little earlier, say at 9:28, as it is preceded by the announcement, of various lengths, of long distance train delays at Delhi. Audio quality is 'medium', not FM. =============== (2) There also is a Sanskrit broadcast from Germany, (by the international station, Deutsche Welle, Cologne): I quote from their web site: http://kleist.dwelle.de/sanskrit/ Within its Hindi Programme Deutsche Welle opens fortnightly a very special window: the Sanskrit-Programme. This 13 minute programme in the ancient Indian language is unique. Deutsche Welle is the only international broadcasting station outside India to broadcast in Sanskrit. The programme reports on developments and research in Indology-Studies as well as on the results of big international Sanskrit-conferences. You can listen to the Sanskrit programme online. 15:45 UTC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This would be = 11:45 a.m. EST (Summer) but the web site is of course accesssible anytime. i.e.: CLICK on: AUDIO on DEMAND, download the Sans1-1.ram and proceed from there This aparently does *not* work; and we should complain!! I suggest to go to the Hindi program http://www.dwelle.de/hindi/audio.html and select "audio on demand" which *does* work. Today's announcement says that the Sanskrit broadcast occurs each second MONDAY, thus either tomorrow, June 26, or July 3. MAX MULLER: Incidentally, today's Hindi broadcast has a long section on Max Mueller and provides the traditional or, if you like, official view on his personality and life (as naastika), which is quite different from what has been bandied about recently. =========== Otherwise you can listen to these frequencies (usually not well audible in North America due to propagation difficulties; the best chance in the morning would be the highest frequency, 25 m (and higher : 11, 13,17 m, if in use); for Europe even 31m, and for Japan/Australia 41 or 49 m may do); for S. Asia of course all of them: 25 m = 11,865 Mhz 31 m= 9, 5895 Mhz 41 m = 7.225 Mhz , 7,305 Mhz 49 m= 6170 Mhz Medium wave 1548 Khz (out of Sri Lanka, I think) ================= Good luck tomorrow! MW> ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Sun Jun 25 23:18:34 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 16:18:34 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059313.23782.17967381390691993519.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Srini Pichumani wrote: > > > > . > > > >In the diatribe pointed to here, the angst expressed at the ex-President of > India R.Venkataraman possibly heading the consitution >review panel could be > deleted, given that ex-Justice Venkatachaliah is now heading the panel. > Done. Thanks for the update. Mea culpa. I was relying on my memory of old > information. But seriously, Srini, it is my turn to be disappointed, just a > little, in the word you choose to describe what is essentially an issue-based > set of questions. I disagree with your characterization of the above article as issue-based. I have no problems with your comments about the history (or the lack thereof) of the Kanchi matha, or comments about various people's opinions and writings, including that of the acharyas, on the origin and history of this and other mathas, date of Sankara etc. But you are way out of line on so many other comments in the above article. And seem to facilely construct a conspiracy theory around various regular activities of the Kanchi matha's acharyas and its adherents, while elsewhere you display acute sensitivity (cf. your comments regarding Hacker and Kulke almost constructing a conspiracy theory about Vidyaranya) and are ready to jump on statements such as "the Kanchi matha is currently more popular than the Sringeri matha", which in itself is polemical according to you. First off, your comment regarding the Kanchi acharyas comment about what to wear, how to behave, etc. These are portions of regular speeches and conversations that have been recorded by the faithful and published as books. What is objectionable in this apart from their being trite ? Don't all types of religious teachers ask people to uphold sanaatana dharma, vaidIka dharma, varnAs'rama dharma etc etc and exhort people to various types of normative behavior ? Isn't there a big difference between such plain sermonizing and advocating sati/sahagamana whatever ? Regarding performing artistes and traditions, your comments are greatly exaggerated and hence your indignation doesn't make sense. I have seen quite a few books and recordings on Carnatic music and have attended many conferences over the years, and hence say this with some amount of authority. There are very very few recordings on which I have seen their benediction - only ones I have seen are special issues, such as the navAvaraNa krithis of Dikshitar (Balamurali ?), where the artistes or persons involved in the recording sought their blessings. When it comes to books, many books published over this century indeed seek their blessings. But this has a perfectly natural explanation in that various musicians and music scholars who publish these books have had a lot of interaction with the late Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati, which they cherish. Whether it is just some musical titbits, or detailed explanations of musical compositions, or details about the musical sampradaya in temples and such, he has shared with them the information that he himself has picked up over the years. The list of musicians who he has interacted with is impressive indeed, considering that these interactions started in the early 1900s itself and continued throughout this century. Besides, he and other earlier Kanchi acharyas belong to the lineage of musicologists and scholars such as Govinda Dikshitar and Venkatamakhi. Hence the matha has had some manuscripts and early books on music -- Subbarama Dikshitar in his letters to The Hindu in 1893 remarks that he has requested the Sankaracharya for help in obtaining the matha's manuscript of the caturdaNDi prakAs'ikA -- which the late acharya must have had some acquaintance with. So, in comparison to various other acharyas, of this matha and others, he has shown a keen interest in music. . In any case, why should all of this be seen as the Kanchi matha arrogating to itself the rights to Carnatic music ? Doesn't make sense. As an early counter-example, let me point out that the publication "abhayAmbA navAvaraNam" of Kallidaikuricchi Anantakrishna Iyer (Guruguha Gana Vidyalaya, Calcutta. 1936) has the benedictions of the Sankaracharya Bharati Krishna Tirtha of Govardhana Pitha. There is also a good amount of psychological naivete on your part when it comes to analyzing the actions of various people, high and mighty or otherwise, who are adherents of the Kanchi matha or who are close followers of the late Chandrasekharendra Saraswati. Why should you consider Smt.Vidya Shankar's biography of Shyama Shastri as one of critical scholarship, and then proceed to criticize it for not mentioning court cases and so on. It most certainly is not, and like her other publications is filled with a lot of straightforward piety and details. That's all. So are the books on Tyagaraja by Prof.Sambamurthy, even though he was a critical scholar on various things musical, and the book on Dikshitar by T.L.Venkatarama Iyer. As for the speeches of ex-President R.Venkataraman or opinions of Agnihotram Ramanuja Tathachariar (I see you have now removed your comments on this one !), you make it out as though the Kanchi acharyas or matha are responsible for these things. R.Venkataraman has his own personal faith in the late acharya which he gives expression to as he sees fit. But you cry wolf unnecesarily. Whither secularism, my foot. Secularism is not going to whither (sic) away because of his references, nor will it be strengthened necessarily if he drops such references. The average person on the street is intelligent enough to understand it as plain pious behavior, even while dismissing it as somewhat of a show-off. Imputing grand, dark motives to such behavior is pointless. > Please also do check some of the books I listed earlier, although I have kept > the really vitriolic publications by partisans of both Mathas > out of my list. I appreciate the list of references, but would have preferred not to see the spin on many of them. Another point - from day one, publicly and privately, you keep mentioning that you ignore the vitriolic publications... I suppose you are referring to publications such as those of Varanasi Raj Gopal Sarma. But I find many similarities in your outbursts and theirs, whence my "weaned on matha polemic". -Srini. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Jun 25 14:41:32 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 00 16:41:32 +0200 Subject: South Block Message-ID: <161227059304.23782.2832317444937275455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anybody on the list tell me whether the term "South Block" refers to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs ("State Department") in Dehli, or to the Ministry of Defense? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jun 26 13:05:32 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 06:05:32 -0700 Subject: Harappan Gold Message-ID: <161227059322.23782.16242852467636935382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harappan gold in U.P?? Does the Mandi hoard belong to Harappan or Late Harappan periods, or to much later times? Thanks. --- Stephen Hodge wrote: > The Harappans may not have had iron but they seem to have had a lot of > gold. Does anybody have further information about the estimated 3 > tonnes of gold jewellery judt found in Mandi, Uttar Pradesh ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jun 26 08:03:34 2000 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 09:03:34 +0100 Subject: SACP's Time & History: East & West 9/28-10/1/00 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059319.23782.7835417071076347033.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bina, Here is an updated, more precise version of my Abstract for my paper. I have also sent this to you via snail mail. I have also sent my membership application in Thanks. John Abstract for Time and History: East and West Conference Columbia, MO Sept 28-Oct 1, 2000 John Grimes, Michigan State University MYTHMAKER DAWNBREAKER: TIME AND TIMELESSNESS That, which never had a beginning and which supposedly made a beginning, can surely make an end! The twin tantalizers be they: space and time, Being and becoming, I and Thou, time and timelessness. The siren song of the universe alluringly begins there. Begins? When is the true beginning? Logically, one can always ask the question, 'what went before'? There? Before space unfolded and the river of time from its ice-cave of eternity began to flow, where was there? A mythmaker is a storyteller, an instantiator, anyone and everyone, you and me. Myths are the songs that we sing, the stories we tell. They are the language which allows their user to deal with phenomena in relation to a framework. Not only are they an universal linguistic phenomenon, they are the universal linguistic phenomenon. And yet, one must be alert. Beware of booby traps, pitfalls, bogs, quicksand, canebrakes, and the slough of despondency. There, at the beginning, the sign says, "enter at your own risk." For a mythmaker, to paraphrase Dante, there is the stage of the gathering of the scattered leaves of the book of the universe. For a dawnbreaker, what is entailed is 'a journeying beyond' - a 'breaking of the boundaries.' The universe is perceived and, as such, it must be given its due. Space and time are (seemingly) part of the make-up of the cosmos. The problem for the Dawnbreaker, the Absolutist, the Transcendentalist, the Advaita Vedantist, is to solve how the transcendent, beyond space and time, radically pure One became many. Exactly how and why, did That, which is immutable, eternal, One and non-dual, reveal that which It is not. It is on this rock that the "nothing ever happens-ists" (ajativadins) crash. On the other hand, the mythmaker must account for any blemishes and impurities which might spoil the prototype. To account for the appearance of space and time is as difficult as to attempt to explain them away. I leave it to others to tackle the Mythmakers. I will address the Dawnbreakers. From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Jun 26 08:12:01 2000 From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 09:12:01 +0100 Subject: SACP's Time & History: East & West 9/28-10/1/00 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059324.23782.15061891023800964527.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm sorry, that was a personal message to Bina Gupta. I seem to have hit the reply/send key by mistake. John From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Jun 26 14:37:47 2000 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 09:37:47 -0500 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059331.23782.17237244164455177232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vasudevahindi of Sanghadasaganivacaka is edited with Introduction, Hindi Translation and Elaborate Exposition by Dr. From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jun 26 14:15:45 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 10:15:45 -0400 Subject: postdoc position announcement (from SARAI) Message-ID: <161227059328.23782.4765300173526097414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following Postdoc opportunity is being followed to your mailing list or listserv from the academic positions sections of SARAI. Please contact the posters directly for all further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ----------- Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:13:08 -0400 From: Christopher Minkowski SOUTH ASIAN NARRATIVES IN FILM, LITERATURE, HISTORIOGRAPHY The Society for the Humanities and the Asian Studies Department at Cornell University invite applications for a Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowship for a one year period beginning July 1, 2001. Candidates should be engaged in research projects on narratives in South Asian film, literature, and / or historiography. Candidates should also conduct at least part of their research in one of the South Asian languages other than English. Some preference will be given to scholars who rely on Bengali, Hindi-Urdu, Nepali, Sinhala, and / or Sanskrit. The fellowship offers a stipend of $30,000. While in residence at Cornell, postdoctoral fellows hold department affiliation, and have limited teaching duties and the opportunity for scholarly work. Candidates must have received the Ph.D. degree after September 1995. Fellowships are limited to citizens of the United States, Canada, or those with permanent U.S. residency cards. All application materials, including letters of recommendation, must be postmarked on or before January 3, 2001. Full details of the Mellon Fellowships at Cornell, including application procedures, are available at the website: http://www.arts.cornell.edu/sochum/html/melloninstruct.html. Or by contacting the Program Administrator, Mellon Postdoctoral Fellowships, Cornell University, Society for the Humanities, A.D. White House, 27 East Avenue, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853-1101. Telephone: 607-255-9274. Email: humctr-mailbox at cornell.edu From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jun 26 14:33:46 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 10:33:46 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context In-Reply-To: <200006261327.e5QDRjD23663@thomson.uni2.net> Message-ID: <161227059334.23782.15228283247277012947.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> See M. Mayrhofer's new Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen, Heidelberg 1996- vol II, p. 581 : ~~ veda' bunch of grass... ; veda' = unclear < IE *wei(H)d- ? Pashto wula 'root fibre, twifg'? etc etc. >The Sanskrit word 'vedi' in ritual context (as found in for example >the zulbasUtras) means a raised area on which a sacrifice is >performed. As the word seems to be derived from the root /vid 'to >know', how did it come to denote a sacrificial area? Is there any >etymologi to explain this? ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From jrasik at COLMEX.MX Mon Jun 26 17:43:20 2000 From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Joshi Rasik) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 12:43:20 -0500 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059340.23782.3649408032527879476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SanghadAsaGaNi"s Vasudevahindi is published in 1987 in Pandit Rampratap Shastri Publications Series No.11.Edited by Dr.Ranjan Surideva with Introduction,Hindi Translation and Elabortate Exposition.Pages XXX,1200.It is available at Chaukhamba Sanskrit Pratisthan,38,U:A:Bungalow Road,Jawahar Nagar,Post Box No.2113,Delhi-110007 Rasik Vihari Joshi -----Mensaje original----- De: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] Enviado el: S?bado, 24 de Junio de 2000 07:11 a.m. Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Asunto: VasudevahiNDI Dear colleagues, Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI (Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated into English or Hindi.I will be grateful for precise reference. Regards, D.N.Jha Professor of History University of Delhi Email: dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jun 26 12:17:09 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 13:17:09 +0100 Subject: CSX fonts upgrade Message-ID: <161227059316.23782.9087494873753967503.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:59:20 +0100 (BST) From: John Smith Subject: Notice for Indology ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Upgrade to CSX+ and CARB fonts for PC I have released new PC versions of the CSX+ and CARB fonts. Only the TrueType fonts have been changed, and there should be no visible difference between the old versions and the new ones. The upgrade was necessary because some software was failing to "see" all the fonts in each family; I have improved the information that the fonts make available to programs that use them, and the problem appears to be solved. The fonts can be found at ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From tlk at POST.COM Mon Jun 26 13:03:49 2000 From: tlk at POST.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 15:03:49 +0200 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059326.23782.1176504574619204735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, The Sanskrit word 'vedi' in ritual context (as found in for example the zulbasUtras) means a raised area on which a sacrifice is performed. As the word seems to be derived from the root /vid 'to know', how did it come to denote a sacrificial area? Is there any etymologi to explain this? Thank you very much. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Jun 26 16:17:57 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 17:17:57 +0100 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059336.23782.7383104605244373758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Witzel wrote: > See M. Mayrhofer's new Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen, > Heidelberg 1996- vol II, p. 581 : ~~ veda' bunch of grass... ; veda' = > unclear < IE *wei(H)d- ? Pashto wula 'root fibre, twifg'? etc etc. > >The Sanskrit word 'vedi' in ritual context (as found in for example > >the zulbasUtras) means a raised area on which a sacrifice is > >performed. As the word seems to be derived from the root /vid 'to > >know', how did it come to denote a sacrificial area? Is there any > >etymologi to explain this? It may also be the case with Vedic sacrifices but further corroboration for the etymology can be deduced from standard Buddhist tantric texts and practice where the vedi is a narrow flat raised ridge constructed around the hearth upon which ku`sa grass is carefully laid to encircle the fire pit. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Jun 26 16:21:41 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 17:21:41 +0100 Subject: Harappan Gold Message-ID: <161227059338.23782.13063515159240669871.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Harappan gold in U.P?? Does the Mandi hoard belong to > Harappan or Late Harappan periods, or to much later > times? The newspaper article I read was very general -- hence my interest in further information. It also mentioned that the bulk of this horde was "acquired" by the local villagers before archeologists can get to the scene. Of the estimated 3 tonnes that was found, only about three hundred kilos have been recovered -- the rest will probably be illicitly melted down somewhere. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue Jun 27 01:59:14 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 18:59:14 -0700 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059345.23782.9644213855905207946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- George Thompson wrote: > In a message dated 6/26/00 10:43:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > > > See M. Mayrhofer's new Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen, > > Heidelberg 1996- vol II, p. 581 : ~~ veda' bunch of grass... ; veda' = > > unclear < IE *wei(H)d- ? Pashto wula 'root fibre, twifg'? etc etc. > > > > > Hello Michael, > > I have always found tempting, though not utterly persuasive, the following > etymology first proposed by Johansson and re-affirmed by Thieme: > > ve'di < *(a)va-zd-i [from ava-sad-]. > > As Thieme suggests [Kl Schr. 1984, p.691] there is clear association between > vedi and the root sad- [cf. vediSa'd, used to refer to Agni]. ava-sad- > occurs only once in RV, but refers there [9.96.13] to Soma, which would be > appropriately placed on the vedi. > > I would think that this etymology strengthens the link between ve'di and > veda', 'grass bundle.' > > I would be curious to know: what do you and others on the list think of this > proposal? In this regard I would like to draw your attention to the old Tamil words for plants belonging to the grass family viz., bamboo, kaus grass and cane and sugarcane: vetir, vetiri, vetiram, vEzam, vENu, vayir, vEy, vEral, vElai etc. DEDR #5485: vetir, vetiri, vetiram, vayir DEDR #5541: vEzam, vEy, vEyal These are all widely attested in CT rich in portrayal of nature. Some of these like vetir, vEzam are used interchangeably for one or more or even all of the above plants showing that they were all classified as grasses of some sort obvious from their jointed appearance. [otl = Cologne OnLine Tamil Lexicon] vEzam otl vEzam vEzam 1. sugarcane; 2. Europeaan bamboo; 3. spiny bamboo; 4. sponge gourd; 5. kaus; 6. music; 7. Elephant; 8. aries of the zodiac; 9. the 2nd naks2atra ; 10. a disease affecting the fruit of the wood-apple; 11. an insect vetir, vetiram: otl vetiram vetiram bamboo QkuRi035 \BT nel koL neTu vetirkku aNanta yAn2ai \et ->"..the elephant that tried to reach bamboo containing rice.." Qaig091x04 \BT pazan2a vetirin2 koTi piNaiyalaL E \et ->"..[wearing] a garland of the flowers of sugarcane from the fields..." Here an old commentary published by the UVS Library (1980) says vetir = sugarcane supported by the fact that this is from an akam poem belonging to the marutam (or agricultural) landscape. otl pazan2am pazan2am 1. paddy field; 2. agricultural land; 3. tank > > Best wishes, > > George Thompson Regards P.Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 27 02:14:25 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 19:14:25 -0700 Subject: Madhava, Vidyaranya, Sringeri, and Kulke Message-ID: <161227059347.23782.9206470887525174413.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srini Pichumani wrote: >And seem to facilely construct a conspiracy theory around various regular >activities of the Kanchi matha's acharyas and its adherents, while >elsewhere >you display acute sensitivity (cf. your comments regarding Hacker and >Kulke >almost constructing a conspiracy theory about Vidyaranya) and are ready to >jump >on statements such as "the Kanchi matha is currently more popular than the >Sringeri matha", which in itself is polemical according to you. Srini, I'm surprised. This kind of statement is indeed polemical. If I had made the opposite statement, wouldn't you be ready to consider that polemical? If either statement were made by a "market-survey" group, after some sort of poll, I would not react to it, except to be amused. If I say that the Kanchi matha is a relatively young institution, the word "young" gets misinterpreted as "fake" and I am immediately accused of being "vitriolic". On the other hand, if you notice, the original statement that provoked my response did not talk of popularity. The word used was "reputation," along with a statement that Sringeri was a "non-entity" and that other institutions were "almost defunct". My immediate questions are, "what sort of reputation, and in whose eyes?" and "non-entity according to whom?" and "defunct according to whom?" Pardon me, but all I have been doing is to react to this sort of thing, that gets repeated in one form or the other, ad nauseum, by those whose only desire is to proclaim the supremacy of the Kanchi Matha. There has been a directionality to this exchange, which you seem to blissfully ignore. If you look into the archives of this list, almost exactly a year ago, another gentleman, who no longer seems to be on this list, put me on the spot by specifically addressing similar questions to me. I do not take it upon myself to go about talking about this issue, except when the context demands it. And in this thread itself, my statement that the political role of Vidyaranya was probably exaggerated by people involved in Vijayanagara administration seems to have been ignored. I'm going to be rapped on the knuckles by staunch Sringeri followers for even entertaining such a thought. Granted, I made a provocative statement about the Kanchi Matha in response to Palaniappan, but I simply chose to say something forcefully, in order to point out that what has been happening in the recent past is not necessarily a good indicator of how things might have been seven or eight centuries ago. Indian society has changed in various irreversible ways since the 14th century. And as for vitriol, it is not just the anti-Kanchi publications of Varanasi Rajagopal Sharma that are guilty of it. Some writings of Polakam Rama Sastri and Atreya Krishna Sastri surpass Sharma's hatred of the Kanchi folks in their intensity of animus against the Sringeri Matha. I haven't listed details of those publications either. If you want to talk of animosity, spread the blame equally, and look at T. M. P. Mahadevan's curious phrase "the institution on the banks of the Tungabhadra", which remains unnamed. Some things get stated explicitly, and other things are stated between the lines. The difference is only in the style of presentation. As for conspiracy theories, I construct none. Read items 4a and 4b in my list of references. There is a constant refrain in the books by Narayana Sastri, Lakshminarasimha Sastri and Nataraja Aiyer. And that is, "the four matha theory has been propounded simply in order to exclude and deny recognition to the Kanchi Matha". All the arguments against the mAdhavIya Sankaravijaya by these pundits revolve around this proposition. These arguments are what Tapasyananda of the Ramakrishna Math dismisses as "scurrilous" and as "bazaar gossip." In other words, what has been happening is that a small group of people have been postulating the existence of a vast conspiracy theory against themselves, and have been very vocal in countering this imagined conspiracy. This vociferousness, combined with the fact that these books were written in English, has ensured that those who have looked at Sankara's hagiography from neutral and critical scholarly perspectives have got completely misled. This is partly because they want to remain neutral in this inter-matha dispute, and partly because those who study only the texts often have no information about the social and cultural milieu of the texts. If they have the information, they have no proper framework to handle it. That job is left to the sociologists and anthropologists of various stripes, who do field studies, but study the textual evidence only superficially. Or there is somebody like W. R. Antarkar, who has written many papers on the Sankaravijaya literature, every one of which indicates that he too buys into this conspiracy theory. All I have done is to point out that no such conspriracy theory exists. What I find quite strange is that my response itself gets interpreted in terms of that which I deny! Rest assured, the conspiracy theory ball is not in my court. > >First off, your comment regarding the Kanchi acharyas comment about what >to >wear, how to behave, etc. These are portions of regular speeches I have no objections to these things, save to point out that if someone disagrees with them or questions these statements, it is not necessarily out of being involved in the inter-matha polemic. Personally, I fail to see how things like wearing a green sari on a particular day, or on what side a married woman should pierce her nose, have anything much to do with sanAtana dharma, and in an all-India sense. Still, my statement in this regard is not about the content of the thing being criticized. It may be that what is being criticized is really inconsequential in the long run. However, my comment is about the perception that some people are infallible and should never be criticized. It is about the perception that he who dares criticize these said people does so only out of political animosity, and that there is no intrinsic validity to his criticism. But then, you seem to share this perception, so no matter what I say or how I say it, you will probably continue to think that I am way out of line, or that I am being vitriolic. Any intensity of sentiment you detect on my part is really not vitriol or animosity; it is a huge sigh of disappointment over the way certain things have been done and continue to be done. That somebody has a wide-ranging knowledge of things does not make him infallible. That other scholars, eminent in their own right, have been impressed by the said wide-ranging knowledge again does not make him infallible. And it is not the little 21st century pipsqueak named Vidyasankar who is saying this. It is because we recognize human fallibility that our tradition goes to great lengths to uphold the apaurusheyatva of the Vedas. Along with that, of course, came the recognition that many things in the Vedas are not to be taken literally, and should be interpreted metaphorically or allegorically. Nowadays, this gets replaced by a belief in the infallibility of certain individuals. Along with this comes the attitude that everything this supposedly infallible person says is literally true. I don't subscribe to that kind of belief about anybody, including myself. If anybody is willing to prove to me that I am wrong about something, I will listen carefully. But if the only response is going to be that I am out of line or that I am being irreverent, that is what I am; and yes, I will reap the fruits of the karma involved in the process. So be it. >There is also a good amount of psychological naivete on your part when it >comes >to analyzing the actions of various people, high and mighty or otherwise, >who >are adherents of the Kanchi matha or who are close followers of the late >Chandrasekharendra Saraswati. Again, my statements do not pertain so much to Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati, as to those who consider themselves his followers. And what you see as psychological naivete has been described as political acuity by someone else, in a private email. I don't care either way. I just state my opinion, but I have no illusions that this will influence the behavior of people in any way. yadyadAcarati SreshThas tattadevetaro janaH, sa yat pramANaM kurute lokas tad anuvartate. At the same time, sadRSaM ceshTate svasyAH prakRteH jnAnavAn api. Therefore, I hold the leaders of the country (including those appointed as judges) to a higher standard. Notwithstanding what the common man in India may or may not consider to be simply pious (or even pompous) behavior on the part of our former President, Sri R. Venkataraman, these things do set a skewed precedent. The President of India is not a private individual so long as he holds office. His words and actions have public consequences. The personality of Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati is immaterial to this comment of mine. When every two-bit reporter in the United States writes, "Hindu India controls about two-thirds of the Muslim majority state of Kashmir. The rest is under the control of Muslim Pakistan." don't you feel like saying "nOr mui rA"? Don't you feel glad when some enthusiastic NRI writes a letter to the editor, pointing out that India is a secular democratic republic, and therefore inherently different from Muslim Pakistan? If you feel these things, then you should also realize that the patterns of behavior set by Indian heads of state and government contribute to this sort of international perception. As for internal perceptions within India, if a President who just happens to be a Roman Catholic constantly refers to the Pope in every one of his public speeches, I'm sure it is not going to be appreciated. If a Muslim President (we've had two of them, plus one acting President, and surely there will be more in the future) constantly refers to some Ayatollah or Imam, that wouldn't be appreciated either. This says nothing against the Pope or the Ayatollah or the Kanchi Acharyas, whoever they may be at that point in time. It is all about standards of behavior in public life, in a multicultural, multireligious country that is a fledgling democracy, and that is frequently rocked by inter-religious strife. The responsibility of Presidents and Prime Ministers, especially those who wear the secular tag on their sleeves, is that much greater. But all this enters into an area that is not covered by this list's goals, which is why I did not post my comments on this list, putting up a separate web-page instead. So, I'll say no more. Best regards, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue Jun 27 02:18:16 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 19:18:16 -0700 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059349.23782.7327000313407050237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > --- George Thompson wrote: > > In a message dated 6/26/00 10:43:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > > > > > See M. Mayrhofer's new Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen, > > > Heidelberg 1996- vol II, p. 581 : ~~ veda' bunch of grass... ; veda' > = > > > unclear < IE *wei(H)d- ? Pashto wula 'root fibre, twifg'? etc etc. > > > > > > > > Hello Michael, > > > > I have always found tempting, though not utterly persuasive, the following > > etymology first proposed by Johansson and re-affirmed by Thieme: > > > > ve'di < *(a)va-zd-i [from ava-sad-]. > > > ...> > > > I would think that this etymology strengthens the link between ve'di and > > veda', 'grass bundle.' > > > > I would be curious to know: what do you and others on the list think of > this > > proposal? > > In this regard I would like to draw your attention to the old Tamil words > for plants belonging to the grass family viz., bamboo, kaus grass and cane > and > sugarcane: > vetir, vetiri, vetiram, vEzam, vENu, vayir, vEy, vEral, vElai etc. > > DEDR #5485: vetir, vetiri, vetiram, vayir > DEDR #5541: vEzam, vEy, vEyal > > These are all widely attested in CT rich in portrayal of nature. > > Some of these like vetir, vEzam are used interchangeably for one or more or > even all of the above plants showing that they were all classified as grasses > of some sort obvious from their jointed appearance. > A small but important note to those who may be unfamiliar with Dravidian phonetics: the intervocalic -t- in the above cited words would be pronounced as -d-. e.g., vetir as vedir. ...> > Regards > P.Chandrasekaran. > Regards again, P.Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Jun 27 03:01:14 2000 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 20:01:14 -0700 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Berkeley Research Journal of South and Southeast Asia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059354.23782.14744405898054377676.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ANNOUNCEMENT AND CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS Dear Colleague, We are pleased to announce Bridges: Berkeley Research Journal on South and Southeast Asia (BRJSS), a faculty refereed journal. This journal will be interdisciplinary in scope, drawing from wide theoretical disciplines in the social sciences, humanities, and the arts. Scholars are encouraged to submit their work on South or Southeast Asia. Special consideration will be given to scholarship focusing on comparative studies in South and Southeast Asian cultures. We expect scholars in the fields of Anthropology, Economics, Folklore, Geography, History, Linguistics, Political Science, Religious Studies, and Sociology to submit manuscripts for publication. Volume One will be released on September 01, 2001. The deadline for submissions for this introductory volume is January 31, 2001. Late submissions will NOT be considered for this volume. Please visit our web-site at http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan/BRJSS.html for details on our submission and editorial policies. For additional information, please email aanita at uclink4.berkeley.edu or cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu. Thanks for your time, The Editors at BRJSS From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Jun 27 00:29:17 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 20:29:17 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059343.23782.6284045377908565334.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/26/00 10:43:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > See M. Mayrhofer's new Etymologisches Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen, > Heidelberg 1996- vol II, p. 581 : ~~ veda' bunch of grass... ; veda' = > unclear < IE *wei(H)d- ? Pashto wula 'root fibre, twifg'? etc etc. > > Hello Michael, I have always found tempting, though not utterly persuasive, the following etymology first proposed by Johansson and re-affirmed by Thieme: ve'di < *(a)va-zd-i [from ava-sad-]. As Thieme suggests [Kl Schr. 1984, p.691] there is clear association between vedi and the root sad- [cf. vediSa'd, used to refer to Agni]. ava-sad- occurs only once in RV, but refers there [9.96.13] to Soma, which would be appropriately placed on the vedi. I would think that this etymology strengthens the link between ve'di and veda', 'grass bundle.' I would be curious to know: what do you and others on the list think of this proposal? Best wishes, George Thompson From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Tue Jun 27 03:39:20 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon (Orinda)) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 20:39:20 -0700 Subject: Harappan Gold In-Reply-To: <004201bfdf8a$c84af620$9b94883e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227059356.23782.3407676365756027728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a report from the Times of India, June 4th. The coins don't sound Harappan. http://www.timesofindia.com/040600/04mlkn5.htm David Salmon -----Original Message----- From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Stephen Hodge Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 9:22 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Harappan Gold > Harappan gold in U.P?? Does the Mandi hoard belong to > Harappan or Late Harappan periods, or to much later > times? The newspaper article I read was very general -- hence my interest in further information. It also mentioned that the bulk of this horde was "acquired" by the local villagers before archeologists can get to the scene. Of the estimated 3 tonnes that was found, only about three hundred kilos have been recovered -- the rest will probably be illicitly melted down somewhere. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jun 27 02:25:02 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 00 22:25:02 -0400 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059351.23782.18326827956050841105.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Listened to the Skt. broadcast of Deutsche Welle/Cologne's today. Again about Max Mueller (already 7th installment), since it is his 100th anniversary, -- but different from yesterday's Hindi broadcast, and much more detailed: about his early studies at Paris (with Burnouf) & stay in London in connection with peroparing his RV + Sayanabhasya edition, his relationship with D. N. Tagore, etc. etc. The woman announcer has a very clear voice and does not speak very quickly. So, perfect for 2nd year+ students. web site: http://kleist.dwelle.de/hindi/audio.html select "audio on demand" The Sanskrit section is in the third part of the program, after Hindi news, sports, etc. This program will be available until c. noon EST, then the Tuesday program (Hindi only) will kick in. Next Skt. program 2 weeks from now. ------------------ on the radio: 16 m = 17,595 Khz 41 m = 7.225 Khz 49 m= 6170 Khz Medium wave 1548 Khz ------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jun 27 04:50:46 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 00:50:46 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059358.23782.18083342860322500933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/26/2000 11:20:50 AM Central Daylight Time, s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > the vedi is a narrow flat raised > ridge constructed around the hearth upon which ku`sa grass is > carefully laid to encircle the fire pit. I am just curious. Was the vedic sacrificial altar created first by digging a pit and then building a fire inside so that the fire could be below ground level and thought of as fire pit? Was it ever built from ground level up with enclosing materials (bricks?) to contain the fire? Among these two, which was more prevalent? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Jun 27 13:39:03 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 06:39:03 -0700 Subject: Harappan Gold Message-ID: <161227059364.23782.15089339199566068843.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "David Salmon (Orinda)" wrote: > Here is a report from the Times of India, June 4th. The coins don't sound > Harappan. > > http://www.timesofindia.com/040600/04mlkn5.htm > > David Salmon Thanks for the URL. The coins have nothing to do with Harappa, since none have been found from the bronze age indus civilization. They seem to have employed barter, measures of grain accurately weighed, cattle, carnelian, lapis, etc., No coins in Harappa. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Tue Jun 27 13:54:41 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 08:54:41 -0500 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059368.23782.12309778965288312720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have tried many times to get this to work, and it only crashes my Real player (newest version). The other languages on this site work, but not Sanskrit. Anybody find a trick to get it to work or find out how to ftp the file??? Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Witzel To: Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 9:25 PM Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller > Listened to the Skt. broadcast of Deutsche Welle/Cologne's today. > > > web site: http://kleist.dwelle.de/hindi/audio.html > select "audio on demand" > The Sanskrit section is in the third part of the program, after Hindi > news, sports, etc. From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 27 15:41:19 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 10:41:19 -0500 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059373.23782.8838944046475333401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It was very cool to listen to the Sanskrit program from dwelle.de I have a question - I hear the reader as saying sharmaNya deshIyasya prakaNda panditasya Max Mueller mahabhagasya ?? Is - sharmaNya deshiyasya - a common usage in Germany ? Thanks in advance. Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Jun 27 15:28:45 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 11:28:45 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059370.23782.4642260115383360992.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/27/00 3:35:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN writes: > > You are right. The word vedi has relationship to the verb "to know". > Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 and contemplate what do > those mantras say. > I do not think the etymology given by Dr. Witzel (from veda = grass) > applies to the word vedi as used in rituals. "barhi" has entirely > different meaning from "sacred grass". > -- Himanshu > dIrghatamas, the author of this famous sUkta, was certainly interested in esoteric veda and may well be associating the words ve'di and ve'da [knowledge -- note the accent, vs. veda', 'grass'] in these passages. But how shall we interpret all of the other RV passages where one sets fires on vedis, or pours oblations on vedis, or strews grasses on vedis? A ritual context is the only context in which one will find a vedi, because it is ritual locus. Just to show that the association of ve'di and veda', 'grass', is not a construction of Western etymologists, and to respond to S. Palaniappan's question, I quote P.V. Kane, *History of DharmazAstra*, vol. 2, part 2, pp. 1034-37 [I quote only the relevant passages]: "To the west of the AhavanIya he constructs a vedi, which is in length as much as the height of the sacrificer or which is as long as required for one's purpose and which has curved sides. The sacrificer repeats a verse "I make a mansion for him etc.' [TB 3.7.6] and touches the spot where the vedi is to be made. The adhvaryu sweeps the spot of the vedi with the veda bunch once with the mantra 'they knew the vedi by means of the veda bunch etc.' [TB 3.3.9].... ....The adhvaryu takes the sphya [wooden sword].... [more ritual accompanied by mantras].... .... The Agnidhra digs up with the sphya the upper layer of dust [with appropriate mantra] and carries the dust so dug to the utkara... The Agnidhra digs the ground from west to east for making the vedi [with appropriate mantras].... Whatever roots remain in the ground he removes with the sphya, and all dust that remains he removes to the utkara...." Hope that helps. GT From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Tue Jun 27 09:38:34 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 11:38:34 +0200 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059362.23782.4838925119719114584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> thanks for the message! n.b. F.M.M. (1823-1900): this year is the 100th anniv. *of his death*. Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: Michael Witzel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 4:08 AM Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller >Listened to the Skt. broadcast of Deutsche Welle/Cologne's today. > >Again about Max Mueller (already 7th installment), since it is his 100th >anniversary, -- >but different from yesterday's Hindi broadcast, and much more detailed: >about his early studies at Paris (with Burnouf) & stay in London in >connection with peroparing his RV + Sayanabhasya edition, his relationship >with D. N. Tagore, etc. etc. > >The woman announcer has a very clear voice and does not speak very quickly. >So, perfect for 2nd year+ students. > >web site: http://kleist.dwelle.de/hindi/audio.html >select "audio on demand" >The Sanskrit section is in the third part of the program, after Hindi >news, sports, etc. > >This program will be available until c. noon EST, >then the Tuesday program (Hindi only) will kick in. > >Next Skt. program 2 weeks from now. > >------------------ >on the radio: >16 m = 17,595 Khz >41 m = 7.225 Khz >49 m= 6170 Khz >Medium wave 1548 Khz >------------------- > >======================================================== >Michael Witzel >Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University >2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA > >ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) >home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > >Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 27 17:25:25 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 12:25:25 -0500 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059381.23782.4327301509841540693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >Like Max Mueller = mokSamUla since he "pointed to India!" (now >forgotten,though this Sanskritization was made in India, not by MM.) Nope - not forgotten, about 10 years ago I heard one person in Bangalore refer to him as mokSa mallara bhaTTa !!. This person mentioned that Max Mueller gave himself this name - a myth perhaps. > >Guess, which name I used in a temple in Andhra when the priest offered for >me...? >Anyhow, > >zubhAsas te panthAsas santu, KAmasetunagara-haridvAra-vizvavidyAlayAt, >bhavadIyo VatsalamihiraH. > Nice!. Regards, Subrahmanya. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jun 27 16:26:44 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 12:26:44 -0400 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller In-Reply-To: <20000627154119.18142.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059378.23782.17617377354741011582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya: > I have a question - I hear the reader as saying sharmaNya deshIyasya > prakaNda panditasya Max Mueller mahabhagasya ?? Yes. > Is - sharmaNya deshiyasya - a common usage in Germany ? Yes, since we are all Brahmins, Skt.is spoken on every street corner, and even our airline is called: Luft -haMsa... and its logo bird...! Just kidding. One of the many Sanskritizations, I do not know who came up with it first. Probably 19th c. Like Max Mueller = mokSamUla since he "pointed to India!" (now forgotten, though this Sanskritization was made in India, not by MM.) Or Deusen = Devasena, L. Schoeder (first editor of the Maitr. and Katha Samhitas of Krsna Yajurveda) who called himself j. zrotR BhaTTa! (see his title page.) Or, as my old teacher, Paul Thieme (94 now!) used to write to his old Pandit, Kamalakanta Misra in Allahabad/Benares, from Tuebingen = tumburu-nagara..... Guess, which name I used in a temple in Andhra when the priest offered for me...? Anyhow, zubhAsas te panthAsas santu, KAmasetunagara-haridvAra-vizvavidyAlayAt, bhavadIyo VatsalamihiraH. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Jun 27 07:06:53 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 12:36:53 +0530 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059360.23782.601888433136368928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote: > Dear list members, > > The Sanskrit word 'vedi' in ritual context (as found in for example > the zulbasUtras) means a raised area on which a sacrifice is > performed. As the word seems to be derived from the root /vid 'to > know', how did it come to denote a sacrificial area? Is there any > etymologi to explain this? You are right. The word vedi has relationship to the verb "to know". Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 and contemplate what do those mantras say. I do not think the etymology given by Dr. Witzel (from veda = grass) applies to the word vedi as used in rituals. "barhi" has entirely different meaning from "sacred grass". -- Himanshu From justinmeiland at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jun 27 14:12:30 2000 From: justinmeiland at HOTMAIL.COM (justin meiland) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 14:12:30 +0000 Subject: Info on satyavacana Message-ID: <161227059366.23782.6531795078837150101.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, a basic article which you may find useful is in the Journal for Royal Asiatic Studies, 1917, by Burlingame on the Act of Truth. Yours, Justin Meiland ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Tue Jun 27 15:13:22 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 16:13:22 +0100 Subject: Kamaksi Suprabhatam Message-ID: <161227059375.23782.4254479201482219860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Where can I find a text of the South Indian Sanskrit hymn, Kaamaaks.iisuprabhaatam? Dr Valerie J Roebuck From mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 28 01:12:26 2000 From: mahadevasiva at HOTMAIL.COM (S Krishna) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 00 18:12:26 -0700 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059386.23782.16997170955681524831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vatsalamihirapaNDitena likhyate: > > Is - sharmaNya deshiyasya - a common usage in Germany ? > >Yes, since we are all Brahmins, Skt.is spoken on every street corner, and >even our airline is called: Luft -haMsa... and its logo bird...! Just kidding.>> Naaaaah! "Koln" i.e. Cologne seems to have come from "Kula heena"( lacking caste)! So, to paraphrase Prof. Bh. Krishnamurthy's advice of a few months ago, pls don't MASQUERADE as a Brahmin, vatsalaamihira paNDita!:-) >Guess, which name I used in a temple in Andhra when the priest offered for >me...?" What gotra did you use? Krishna ( or should I make it Chris?) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jun 28 00:30:54 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 01:30:54 +0100 Subject: Harappan Gold Message-ID: <161227059384.23782.4896307288368688836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Thanks for the URL. The coins have nothing to do with Harappa, > since none have been found from the bronze age indus civilization. > They seem to have employed barter, measures of grain accurately > weighed, cattle, carnelian, lapis, etc., No coins in Harappa. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this find. The article I read was in the The Guardian (UK 21/06). It quotes both AK Sharma of U.P. State Archeology Unit and Komal Anand, director general of the Archeological Survey of India, who is quoted as saying, "Such a large collection of 2000BC Harappan jewellery has never been found at any other site in India. It indicates that the Harappans had started moving from the north for some reason". The article implies that the jewellery was shown by the Archeological Survey of India whose members might be assumed to know Harappan artefacts when they see them. The article goes on, "Experts say that the jewellery is similar to other items recovered from Mohenjo Daro". The article also mentions the ASI "also showed off 31 anthropomorphic [copper] figurines dug up in the nearby district of Moradabad and date back to the Harappan period." Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 28 12:22:10 2000 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 05:22:10 -0700 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059405.23782.5269615355830371512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And while on the subject, it is said that the Vedi was narrow in the middle, resulting in the use of vedi-madhyamA to denote a thin-waisted woman. Can anyone explain what an altar that is narrow in the middle looks like? I have seen numerous fire sacrifices, but never yet anything that reminded me of a thin-waisted woman. Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jun 28 13:50:25 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 06:50:25 -0700 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059410.23782.8245790214542112684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Robert Zydenbos wrote: > No no no. Then where did that 'h' go? This etymology looks too much like a > hypercorrection (probably south Indian, where many people have problems > with the 'h' and with aspirations) - while it should be obvious that 'Koeln' > (as the misleading prakritic French name, with its three syllables, also > suggests) is actually 'kuliina', "of eminent descent", in Monier-Williams' > definition. Na vaa? :-))) Well, kulam/kulAya is dravidian. Is there a European word for it from the same root? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed Jun 28 07:21:03 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 07:21:03 +0000 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059395.23782.7058426506670038539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tuseday, June 2000, H. P. Dave wrote: >The word vedi has relationship to the verb "to know". >Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 >and contemplate what do those mantras say. I have done so, and I?m still contemplating. At least to me, your point is not overly lucid. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Wed Jun 28 03:39:49 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 09:09:49 +0530 Subject: Saffronisation of Indian Archaeology Message-ID: <161227059390.23782.2450755174435128974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is a not on Indian archaeological scene for the List members D.N.Jha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SaffronisationofArchaeolgyor.doc Type: application/msword Size: 23552 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jun 28 14:14:38 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 10:14:38 -0400 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller In-Reply-To: <12800.962195089@www1.gmx.net> Message-ID: <161227059414.23782.8933182093127160734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ah, the Summer doldrums... Krishna: > What gotra did you use? sa-vatsala-gotra, of course. Subrahmanya: > about 10 years ago I heard one person in Bangalore >refer to him as mokSa mallara bhaTTa !!. This >person mentioned that Max Mueller gave himself this name - a myth > perhaps. Evam me matam.It can be checked easily in 19thc., and even in early 20th c. publications... Certainly used upto independence 1947, of which he was regarded as an early forerunner.. Vidyasankar: > KAmasetunagara-haridvAra-vizvavidyAlayAt, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Too much translation there... ... just sounds similar, e.g. California = >kapilAraNya, propounded by the late you-know-whom. :) If you can find a >suitable mythology for it, even better! Something with Kaalii- certainly is better, earthquakes and all(!) ... It must have been Kaali-parNya when it was first settled by the Maya ( < maayaa) and related peoples from Bharata (see Chaman Lal, Hindu America), and remember all those S. Indian names derived from palm trees (on this list)? As for Cam-bride, instead of kaama- I will settle, from personal experience, for the much more approriate artha... Thus: kampraijya 'to be offered while shaking', as any goat does at Calcutta or in Nepal (headshake means agreement to be slaughtered!)... Or, Kambugriiva-setu, or rather, much more proper for these distant western Mleccha neighbors of India, an apabhraMza form of: Kaamboja-preSya 'inhabited by the Kamboja servants' > kaampreSya > with recent popular English etymology, Cam-bridge (the same must apply to the other Cambridge in Anguli-sthaana, see PN Oak) . >> >Naaaaah! "Koln" i.e. Cologne seems to have come from "Kula heena"( >> lacking caste)! R.Zydenbos: > should be obvious that 'Koeln' >(as the misleading prakritic French name, with its three syllables, also >suggests) is actually 'kuliina', "of eminent descent", in Monier-Williams' >definition. Na vaa? :-) Astu: Dr. Zydenbos, having changed his address from S. India to teach at the Universitas litterarum of Kuliina-nagara in Zaarmanyadeza, knows from the horse's mouth, and from his intimate knowledge of the Lower Franconian apabhraMza, spoken at Cologne and further down the Rhine in the countries of the Batavi and Belgae, that Cologne stands for the following: the Roman name from early post-Augustan times, Colonia (i.e. Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium), indicates that this is an adaptation, in the Latin Prakrit of Sanskrit (vide Talageri et al.), of kuliina or, as Yaaska would insist, kalaajna or rather, and that is the siddhaanta: kalyaaNa! Na, tu: certainly not from kaalanemi, or kulahiina where, even with 'parokSapriyaa hi devaaH", you don't get the etymology! Kamboja-nagare, Haridvardhana-vizvavidyaalayaad, bhavadiiyaat Vatsalamihiraat. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jun 28 15:33:53 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 10:33:53 -0500 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059416.23782.15922367723794977204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "Jan E.M. Houben" >lead me to (1) a remark and (2) a question. >(1) This would be a nice example of what the Austrian anthropologist >Agehananda Bharati called "the pizza-effect": a cultural phenomenon is >suddenly much more appreciated in its original country/environment if >it receives attention and appreciation abroad. > I am not sure that the "pizza effect" is an accurate description. Actually the aping by AIR is an example of socialist school of thinking that was in power in India. A school totally incapable of independent thought. I do not think that it is correct to say that Indians suddenly became more appreciative of Sanskrit broadcasts. It is just that the powers that be would not have allowed such a thing and as usual they had to look over their shoulders to get approval from outside. Regards. Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Jun 28 09:03:31 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 11:03:31 +0200 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059398.23782.13700744407033211903.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 2500 years old hot issue: let the real braahmaNa stand up (kula or guna). Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: S Krishna To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 3:00 AM Subject: Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller >vatsalamihirapaNDitena likhyate: >> > Is - sharmaNya deshiyasya - a common usage in Germany ? >> >>Yes, since we are all Brahmins, Skt.is spoken on every street corner, and >>even our airline is called: Luft -haMsa... and its logo bird...! >Just kidding.>> > > >Naaaaah! "Koln" i.e. Cologne seems to have come from "Kula heena"( lacking >caste)! So, to paraphrase Prof. Bh. Krishnamurthy's advice of a few months >ago, pls don't MASQUERADE as a Brahmin, vatsalaamihira paNDita!:-) > >>Guess, which name I used in a temple in Andhra when the priest offered for >>me...?" > >What gotra did you use? > >Krishna > >( or should I make it Chris?) > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Jun 28 09:19:53 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 11:19:53 +0200 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059403.23782.11885399404837186402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The statements on the web site of the Deutsche Welle: http://kleist.dwelle.de/hindi/audio.html regarding the history of their Sanskrit radio broadcast -- worldwide first in Germany in 1966(!); next, after questions on this in Indian parliament, also in India -- lead me to (1) a remark and (2) a question. (1) This would be a nice example of what the Austrian anthropologist Agehananda Bharati called "the pizza-effect": a cultural phenomenon is suddenly much more appreciated in its original country/environment if it receives attention and appreciation abroad. (2) Who -- some German Indologist, I assume, but which one -- was instrumental in getting a Sanskrit broadcast on the German radio in 1966? Jan E.M. Houben, Research Fellow of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: Michael Witzel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000 4:08 AM Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller >Listened to the Skt. broadcast of Deutsche Welle/Cologne's today. > From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Wed Jun 28 10:01:45 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 13:01:45 +0300 Subject: Info on satyavacana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059400.23782.8462384372764936269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are many works and remarks on the subject. What comes to mind first is: Penzer M.M. (ed.) The Ocean of Story, being C.H.Tawney's translation of Somadeva's KathA Sarit SAgara, London, 1924-28, vol.2, pp.30-33, vol.3, pp.179-182; W.Norman Brown. Duty as Truth in the Rig Veda. - India Maior. Congratulatory Volume presented to Prof.J.Gonda. Leiden, 1972, pp.57-67. Best regards Ya.V. Sat, 24 Jun 100 05:17 +0300 MSK Nobumi Iyanaga wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Dear List Members, > > I am looking for some simple information on the notion of satyavacana in > classical Indian thought in general and if possible in Buddhist thought, > literature, etc. > > Thank you very much in advance for any thoughts, bibliographical data or > references. > > Best regards, > > Nobumi Iyanaga > Tokyo, > Japan > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Wed, 28 Jun 100 12:44 +0300 MSK From zydenbos at GMX.LI Wed Jun 28 12:24:49 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 14:24:49 +0200 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059407.23782.7034346164404773221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 28.06.2000 schrieb Jan E.M. Houben: > 2500 years old hot issue: let the real braahmaNa stand up (kula or > guna). All right, I'll and come out of the closet and confess... Here I am. You can read all about me in Bhagavadgiitaa ch. 18. :-) But, as the j;naana and vij;naana of my karma demand, I must set straight a quoted matter: > From: S Krishna > Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 3:00 AM > > >Naaaaah! "Koln" i.e. Cologne seems to have come from "Kula heena"( > lacking caste)! No no no. Then where did that 'h' go? This etymology looks too much like a hypercorrection (probably south Indian, where many people have problems with the 'h' and with aspirations) - while it should be obvious that 'Koeln' (as the misleading prakritic French name, with its three syllables, also suggests) is actually 'kuliina', "of eminent descent", in Monier-Williams' definition. Na vaa? :-))) -- Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Wed Jun 28 15:33:47 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 16:33:47 +0100 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059411.23782.17567283711015180124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to Jan Houben's excellent question >Who -- some German Indologist, I assume, but which one -- was instrumental in getting a Sanskrit broadcast on the German radio in 1966?< As far as my information goes, it was Dr. Raghu Vir's daughter, Sushama Lohia, working for the Hindi program of Deutsche Welle in the sixties, who tried for the inclusion of a Sanskrit broadcast in Hindi broadcasts. See the issues of the Sanskrit periodical ;Saaradaa, published from Pune by Pandit Vasant A. Gadgil, for the late 1960's (I do not have access to them at present to be able to give a precise reference). aklujkar From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Wed Jun 28 15:47:11 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 17:47:11 +0200 Subject: kabir Message-ID: <161227059418.23782.6932096977419900894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar on 20 mei 2000 wrote: > Hinduism is an undefined religion. It has no founder,no book, no > commandments,no organized church.Therefore any reaction to Hinduism that > arises cannot be disowned by Hinduism itself. In this respect Hinduism is > like a mathematical group. In a mathematical group,when a ( permissible) > operation is performed on a member, the result is yet another member. > The question is not whether Kabir is to be recognized as a Hindu or not. The > question is whether Hinduism can disown what Kabir said. The answer is No. > More generally because of the above cosiderations, the relationship between > Hinduism and (other)Indian-born religions remains asymmetrical. They can > disown Hinduism but not vice versa. This is an important contribution toward resolving all these unpleasant quarrels about whether Sikhs or Jains or Buddhists are Hindus. To put it in language which in this circle only Prof. Kochhar would understand: the introduction of non-symmetry here is as brilliant as the non-commutativity of multiplication in the quaternion group. Dr. K. Elst From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Jun 28 23:54:53 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 00 19:54:53 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059420.23782.9997110349182687525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/28/00 8:23:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jankbrz at YAHOO.COM writes: > And while on the subject, it is said that the Vedi was > narrow in the middle, resulting in the use of > vedi-madhyamA to denote a thin-waisted woman. Can > anyone explain what an altar that is narrow in the > middle looks like? > > I have seen numerous fire sacrifices, but never yet > anything that reminded me of a thin-waisted woman. > Well, the four sides of a vedi are concave [the east-west sides, which are a quarter to a third of the length of the north-south, are only slightly curved]. The resultant form might remind one of an hour glass or a beaker, I suppose. Or perhaps the form of a thin-waisted woman, as far as that goes. Best, George Thompson [aka dIrgha tamasin] From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Jun 29 08:31:32 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 01:31:32 -0700 Subject: [Re: Etymology of the words vedi in ritual context] Message-ID: <161227059429.23782.10246334461842562387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the expressions 'vedImadhyA' and 'vedIvilagnamadhyA' [MBh, SabhA, 58, 36; Vana 261, 19 etc. etc.],'vedI' does not mean the shape of a fireplace on the ground, but it has another, quite possibly an earlier, referent- that of a bundle of kuza grass, tied in the middle in the shape of a Damaru- hence the slender middle. vedI [bundle of grass]probably comes from roots vA, vi,or ve, vAyati, vAyate etc.[ How to explain the -d-. Defer to the Philologists, but do not exlain from 'vid'. aho vata mahat kaSTaM. -d- An archaism perhaps? The rivernames vetavatI, vetravatI and vedavatI are used interchsngeably, one humble suggestion.] vedI also is a rivername in the MBh. 'VedI' in the expression 'vedImadhyA' in later kAvya lit.does not always refer to the bundle of kuza grass, but instead often refers to the female genitalia[NaiSadhIyam,SubhASitas, and in medieval vernacular poetry], and has an added suggestion of the phenomenon of kAmayajna etc. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Thu Jun 29 04:05:26 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 04:05:26 +0000 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059422.23782.12186848876558794252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On June 27, 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: >Like Max Mueller = mokSamUla since he "pointed to India!" >this Sanskritization was made in India, not by MM.) On June 27, 2000, Subrahmanya wrote: >mokSa mallara bhaTTa!! This person mentioned that Max Mueller >gave himself this name - a myth perhaps. On June 28, 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: >Evam me matam. I suspect that Max M?ller gave the name *MokSa-M?lara-BhaTTa* to himself. M?ller*s four volume Rgveda with S?yaNa, the second edition of 1890, is available to me in a reprint from Krishnadas Academy, Varanasi, 1983. Immediately preceding the Sanskrit text there is the following Sanskrit title page that does not look like it has been changed in the reprint. (Perhaps someone can check with the original prints of the first and second editions.) ____________________________________________________________________ RgvedasaMhit? [...........] ??rmaNyade?otpanneneMgalaNDade?aniv?sin? mokSam?larabhaTTena saM?odhit? got?rth?bhidh?nanagare [...........] mudrit?. SaMvat 1947 varSe ____________________________________________________________________ All the best, Sven Ekelin [Ekal?na] From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jun 29 14:18:14 2000 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 10:18:14 -0400 Subject: Info on satyavacana In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000629184741.006c3854@lanka.ccom.lk> Message-ID: <161227059434.23782.11340781488316185711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On this topic you might also look at George thompson's article "On Truth Acts in Vedic", Indo Iranian Journal 41, pp. 125-153 *********************************************************** Carlos Lopez Dept of Sanskrit and Indian Studies Harvard University ********************************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Mahinda > Palihawadana > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 9:50 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Info on satyavacana > > > At 11:17 06/24/2000 +0900, Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: > >Dear List Members, > > > >I am looking for some simple information on the notion of satyavacana in > >classical Indian thought in general and if possible in Buddhist thought, > >literature, etc. > > Heinrich Luders, VaruNa, II VaruNa und das Rta, Goettingen. > Vandenhoeck & > Ruprecht. 1959, pp 486 ff (Die SatyakriyA) contain a discussion of the > relevant Buddhist references. Pp 496 ff deal with "Die SatyakriyA in der > brahmanischen Literatur". This is of course considerably more than "some > simple information". > The whole Buddhist ritual of ParittAna (Skt. ParitrANa) is based on the > notion that the truth, when told with lovingkindness (mettA = > maitrI), is a > great force for healing and protection. > Regards. > Mahinda Palihawadana From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Jun 29 05:01:50 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 10:31:50 +0530 Subject: Max Mueller Bhattized Message-ID: <161227059424.23782.3173201131777931391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 7 October 1851 Rajah Radhakanta Deb, celebrated compiler of the Sanskrit dictionary,Sabda-kalpadrum,wrote to H.H. Wilson Esq,East India House, London, that the Honorable the Court of Directors {of the East India Company} has presented him with a copy of the Rigveda of Doctor Von Max Muller. Deb asked Wilson "to convey my sentiments of esteem and regard to the illustious editor of the Rigveda whose name Bhatta Makshamooler(according to your Christening I believe sounds as euphonical in our ears as that of a Dravida Pandita..."{Note: in the original, Bhatta Makshamooler is printed in the Nagari script.} On 18 November 1851,Deb followed with a letter to Doctor Von Max Muller, London "It is only a very curious reflection on the vicissitudes of human affairs that the descendentsof the divine rishis should be studying on the banks of the Bhagirathi,the Jamna and the Sindhu,their holy sciptures published on the banks of the Thames by one whom they regard as a distant Mlechcha--this Mlechcha,the descendent of of the degraded Kshattriyas according to our Sastra and claiming a cognate origin with the Hindus according to the investigation of the modern philologists will ere long rise to the rank of as Veda Vyasa of the Kaliyuga. ---As Yavanacharya gave to the Hindus his system of Astronomy many centuries ago so the German Bhatta is now giving them his Edition of the Rigveda..." Note: Deb was the (adopted) grandson of Moonshhee ( later Maharaja) .Nubkissen, the Persian tutor of Lord Clive , and was a Kayastha by caste. REF:. Jogesh C Bagal.Modern Review,Vol. 72,August 1942,pp 157-162. Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Jun 29 14:43:14 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 10:43:14 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059436.23782.2472406733959906150.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/29/00 4:30:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN writes: [snip] > > Is not almost whole of RigVeda "esoteric" ? > [snip again] > > WHat is the meaning of "fire"? and "oblations"? What does "grass" mean? > Do'nt you think INDOLOGISTs are making the same mistake as those who tried > to > define the Botanical name for Somavalli and tried to search it out on face > of > the Earth somewhere? [snip snip snip] > > (I read in a later posting by GT that he uses the name diirghatamasin, I > really > liked that. But what is the etymology and meaning of the word * > diirghatamas*) > Best wishes, > -- Himanshu Dear Himanshu, Perhaps we should resort to a division of labor. Let us leave it to the philologists and paNDitas to try to figure out what the RV says. And we will leave it to the philosophers and vipras to tell us what the RV means. As for the name dIrghatamasin, it is not a name that I have presumptuosuly chosen for myself. No, it was, rather playfully, assigned to me by an Iranist, after I had suggested that the Gathic hymns of Zarathustra might well deserve comparison with the corpus of hymns attributed to dIrghatamas. Both corpora are roughly the same size, and in my view roughly of the same date, and not very far from each other geographically, too. A RSi like dIrghatamas is a good representative of the type of tradition that Zarathustra was raised in, and eventually departed from. This is a project that I hope to return to and complete some day soon. As for names, I am presently interested in the etymology of the second part of yours. Best wishes, George From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Thu Jun 29 08:16:52 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 13:46:52 +0530 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059427.23782.15308210818412956929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > In a message dated 6/27/00 3:35:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN writes: > > > > > You are right. The word vedi has relationship to the verb "to know". > > Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 and contemplate what do > > those mantras say. > > I do not think the etymology given by Dr. Witzel (from veda = grass) > > applies to the word vedi as used in rituals. "barhi" has entirely > > different meaning from "sacred grass". > > -- Himanshu > > > dIrghatamas, the author of this famous sUkta, was certainly interested in > esoteric veda and may well be associating the words ve'di and ve'da > [knowledge -- note the accent, vs. veda', 'grass'] in these passages. Is not almost whole of RigVeda "esoteric" ? > > > But how shall we interpret all of the other RV passages where one sets fires > on vedis, or pours oblations on vedis, or strews grasses on vedis? > WHat is the meaning of "fire"? and "oblations"? What does "grass" mean? Do'nt you think INDOLOGISTs are making the same mistake as those who tried to define the Botanical name for Somavalli and tried to search it out on face of the Earth somewhere? > > A ritual context is the only context in which one will find a vedi, because > it is ritual locus. I think by ritual you mean a Yajna. But what is a "Yanja"? Is it simply a fire sacrifice? (i.e. offering some au.sadhi in a physical fire? Are you sure that was the intended meaning/action? > > > Just to show that the association of ve'di and veda', 'grass', is not a > construction of Western etymologists, and to respond to S. Palaniappan's > question, I quote P.V. Kane, *History of DharmazAstra*, vol. 2, part 2, pp. > 1034-37 [I quote only the relevant passages]: > > "To the west of the AhavanIya he constructs a vedi, which is in length as > > > , > and all dust that remains he removes to the utkara...." > I am aware of these. I remeber here a story which I raed a few years back (and auther assured it is based on a true event) Please do take two minutes to read it : " It seems an expedition group travelled in dense jungles of South America in search of Gold. There they had taken modern weapons like rifles, machine-guns,etc. Eventually, these people got killed (due to reasons not of our interest). The aborigins living in the jungle, tried to use the weapons, but they did not know how to, but they were well impressed by their efficassy, so they constructed fake guns from bamboo sticks and black colour. At their social gatherings (like marriages) they "fired" these "guns" by pointing them to sky and striking heavily on their drums. They some how thought that they will achieve the same effect as the original guns of the expeditionary group. This belief was strengthened occassionally by an animal that they could catch due to its confusion. " Let me be clear that I do not say that the ritual (the Yajna with physical fire) are wrong or totally useless. They are limited and not the original major intent of RigVeda. Incidently I am a pukka Brahmin, doing Sandhya two times a day. > > Hope that helps. > > GT (I read in a later posting by GT that he uses the name diirghatamasin, I really liked that. But what is the etymology and meaning of the word *diirghatamas*) Best wishes, -- Himanshu From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Thu Jun 29 08:54:03 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 14:24:03 +0530 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059431.23782.5843686302767741797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sven Ekelin wrote: > On Tuseday, June 2000, H. B. Dave wrote: > > >The word vedi has relationship to the verb "to know". > > >Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 > >and contemplate what do those mantras say. > > I have done so, and I?m still contemplating. > > At least to me, your point is not overly lucid. > You have said "I am still contemplating". Granting me a little bit of study and familiarity with RigVeda, please think *why* would I have suggested to refer to those two mantras? What do those mantras really say? Do they say something about the nature of what is called vedi? What is the meaning of the word p.rthivii [RV I-164-35]? and parame vyoman [RV I-164-39]? I am ready to accept etymology of vedi based on veda (grass) provided Linguists agree with me that grass {veda, barhi} means neurons of the human brain, i.e. the brain belonging to yajamaana. But will they? Trouble with RigVeda is that one can not apply only linguistic rules for deriving etymologies. Best wishes, -- Himanshu -- ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From mahipal at LANKA.CCOM.LK Thu Jun 29 13:50:08 2000 From: mahipal at LANKA.CCOM.LK (Mahinda Palihawadana) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 18:50:08 +0500 Subject: Info on satyavacana Message-ID: <161227059432.23782.7483406131315027488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 11:17 06/24/2000 +0900, Nobumi Iyanaga wrote: >Dear List Members, > >I am looking for some simple information on the notion of satyavacana in >classical Indian thought in general and if possible in Buddhist thought, >literature, etc. Heinrich Luders, VaruNa, II VaruNa und das Rta, Goettingen. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. 1959, pp 486 ff (Die SatyakriyA) contain a discussion of the relevant Buddhist references. Pp 496 ff deal with "Die SatyakriyA in der brahmanischen Literatur". This is of course considerably more than "some simple information". The whole Buddhist ritual of ParittAna (Skt. ParitrANa) is based on the notion that the truth, when told with lovingkindness (mettA = maitrI), is a great force for healing and protection. Regards. Mahinda Palihawadana From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Thu Jun 29 23:28:50 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 23:28:50 +0000 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059441.23782.13233944118885974537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > As for the name dIrghatamasin, it is not a name that I have presumptuosuly > chosen for myself. No, it was, rather playfully, assigned to me by an > Iranist, after I had suggested that the Gathic hymns of Zarathustra might Please do not think that I had a frivolrous interest in the name you used. It happened that a few months back I had a serious discussion (and sever difference of opinion) with a few Sanskrit Professors, well versed in Vedas, about the significance of the name diirghatamas. I thought because you used that name for yourself, maybe you might have some analysis available. > > As for names, I am presently interested in the etymology of the second part > of yours. It is my real first name! In Gujarati (my mother tongue) anusvaara becomes n > > > Best wishes, > > George I find you have not answered my questions. Are you following the Japanese method of "killing a question" by silence? Or, that I (i.e. HBD) can not be a philosopher or a (what you call) vipra.h ? Incidently I am a vipra.h (at least by birth and profession, though I do not have any certificate about it from INDOLOGY list) Best wishes, -- Himanshu [admin note: changed date from Thu, 7 Feb 2036 13:47:42 +0530] From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Fri Jun 30 03:28:54 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 23:28:54 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059443.23782.16235629650951461660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sven Ekelin wrote: > On June 27, 2000, Himanshu Dave wrote: > > >Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 > >and contemplate what do those mantras say. > > On June 28, 2000, I wrote: > > >I have done so, and I*m still contemplating. > >At least to me, your point is not overly lucid. > > On June 29, 2000, professor Dave made the following elucidation: > > >I am ready to accept etymology of vedi based on veda (grass) > >provided linguists agree with me that grass {veda, barhi} means > >neurons of the human brain, i.e. the brain belonging to > >yajamaana. But will they? > > I wouln*t bet on it. > > As for my contemplation, it is still going on. My undeveloped neuronic > grass-bundles need much more time to fathom the depths of professor > Dave*s brahmodayas. I suggest that it might help the process if you do occassional yaj~na on a vedi that is strewn "veda (grass)". I am quite serious. > > > ********************************************************************** > Sven Ekelin > ekelin at bahnhof.se > ********************************************************************** -- Himanshu [admin note: changed date from Thu, 7 Feb 2036 14:10:42 +0530] From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jun 30 03:28:55 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 00 23:28:55 -0400 Subject: Info on satyavacana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059445.23782.5781870698488447283.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> As so often people hit on the same solution (Lueders!) at the same time: so far missing, thus: Brown, N. W. 1940. The basis for the Hindu Act of Truth, Review of Religions 5, 36-45. _____. 1941. The Hindu Act of Truth, Religious Digest 12.64, 23-25 _____. 1963: Rg Veda 10.34 as an Act of Truth, Bharatiya Vidya 20-21, 8-10. _____. 1968. The Metaphysics of the Truth Act (*Satyakriya), Melanges d'Indianisme a la memoire de L. Renou, Paris 171-177. Some of this reprinted in: _____. 1978. India and Indology. Delhi. ----------------- >Thank you very much for giving me many valuable references about >satyavacana. Many thanks to Mr. Justin Meiland, Yaroslav Vassilkov, >Mahinda Palihawadana and Carlos Lopez! > >Best regards, > >Nobumi Iyanaga >Tokyo, >Japan ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP Thu Jun 29 15:38:05 2000 From: n-iyanag at PPP.BEKKOAME.NE.JP (Nobumi Iyanaga) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 00:38:05 +0900 Subject: Info on satyavacana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059438.23782.6396527246738149192.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, Thank you very much for giving me many valuable references about satyavacana. Many thanks to Mr. Justin Meiland, Yaroslav Vassilkov, Mahinda Palihawadana and Carlos Lopez! Best regards, Nobumi Iyanaga Tokyo, Japan From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Fri Jun 30 04:21:37 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 04:21:37 +0000 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059440.23782.3315983256458003824.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On June 27, 2000, Himanshu Dave wrote: >Kindly look up RV I-164-39, read with I-164-35 >and contemplate what do those mantras say. On June 28, 2000, I wrote: >I have done so, and I*m still contemplating. >At least to me, your point is not overly lucid. On June 29, 2000, professor Dave made the following elucidation: >I am ready to accept etymology of vedi based on veda (grass) >provided linguists agree with me that grass {veda, barhi} means >neurons of the human brain, i.e. the brain belonging to >yajamaana. But will they? I wouln*t bet on it. As for my contemplation, it is still going on. My undeveloped neuronic grass-bundles need much more time to fathom the depths of professor Dave*s brahmodayas. ********************************************************************** Sven Ekelin ekelin at bahnhof.se ********************************************************************** From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 30 14:03:43 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 07:03:43 -0700 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059449.23782.4396599071249231901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Prof. Michael Witzel wrote: > and remember all those S. Indian names derived from palm trees (on this > list)? Sangam poems are obsessed with flora and fauna. Is vetravatii a river of grass? Just read Mr. Chandra's post on vetir etc., = grass. May be like pATali bush(putar/putal) => pATaliputra, vetir => vetravatii. Even Sanskrit recognised this phenomenon of naming rivers/places after plants: aan2porunai river in Tiruchy district passes via Karur where most Roman coins have been found. aan2porunai is (incorrectly) sanskritzied as aamravatii. (rewritten in tamil as aampiravati/amaraavati). I am sure when Sanskritists search the topo-/hydronymy of India well, many plant names show up. > [...] (vide Talageri et al.), There is a famous tAlagirIzvara temple on a hill top near the river S. peNNai in S. Arcot district (N. PeNNAr flows in Nellore). PeNNai is widely attested as palm tree in CT. This 7th century Pallavan temple has a beautiful painting of Parvati. This Pallavan pg. is given (for eg.,) in B. Gray, Indian painting. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 30 14:14:37 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 07:14:37 -0700 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059451.23782.3241082890629598310.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > --- Prof. Michael Witzel wrote: > > > and remember all those S. Indian names derived from palm trees (on this > > list)? > > Sangam poems are obsessed with flora and fauna. Is vetravatii > a river of grass? Just read Mr. Chandra's post on vetir etc., = grass. > May be like pATali bush(putar/putal) => pATaliputra, > vetir => vetravatii. In Tamil the tree is called pAtiri also. ..> > Regards, > SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 30 15:07:28 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 08:07:28 -0700 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059453.23782.12475474957975717154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote: > I am sure when Sanskritists search the > topo-/hydronymy of India > By the same token, many river names in Tamilnadu hardly seem to be of Tamil (or SDr) origin. For example, keTilam, vaiyai, kAviri, noyyal, koLLiTam, 'kabini' or the Sanskrit sounding names like pavAni, tAmiravaruNi or stems of rivers with -ARu suffixes like aricilARu, veNNARu, veTTARu, pAlARu etc.. Are there perhaps acceptable etymologies in the literature for these? Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From GthomGt at CS.COM Fri Jun 30 13:01:15 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 09:01:15 -0400 Subject: Etymology of the words 'vedi' in ritual context Message-ID: <161227059447.23782.11238700732028711239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/30/00 5:04:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN writes: > I find you have not answered my questions. Are you following the Japanese > method > of "killing a question" by silence? Or, that I (i.e. HBD) can not be a > philosopher or a (what you call) vipra.h ? Incidently I am a vipra.h (at > least > by birth and profession, though I do not have any certificate about it from > INDOLOGY list) > Best wishes, > > -- Himanshu > It is quite clear to me, Himanshu, that you are indeed both a philosopher and a vipra. But I am not. So I will have to withdraw from further discussion. I do not know whether this is the Japanese method or not, but in any case it will save the list members from another headache. Best wishes, George From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 30 18:53:58 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 11:53:58 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller) Message-ID: <161227059454.23782.5712797454536205577.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > --- Swaminathan Madhuresan > wrote: > > > I am sure when Sanskritists search the > > topo-/hydronymy of India > > > > By the same token, many river names in Tamilnadu > hardly seem to be of Tamil (or SDr) origin. For > example, keTilam, vaiyai, kAviri, noyyal, koLLiTam, > 'kabini' A surprising comment given that they do not even sound like typical Sanskrit names. 1. noyyal: ------ kevi otl kevi kevi 1. depth, deep valley; 2. cave, cavern DEDR #1332: Ta. kevi = deep valley, cave Ka. gavi = cave; Tu. cave. hole, cell. Te. gavi = cavern Note also the Dr. words for ear(DEDR #1977): "cevi", Go. "kevi", Kol. "kev" etc. And there is Konda. gibi, kibi for "ear" These are a quick attempt at their etymologies by me. I hope these make sense. >or the Sanskrit sounding names like pavAni, It was discusses already in the "vaizampAya" thread. I had quoted the CT patiRRup pattu passage whre the same river was called 'vAn2i' (Ta. vAn2 = sky). > tAmiravaruNi see earlier posting by Madhuresan. < taN porun2ai >..> > Thanks and Warm Regards, > > LS > Regards P. Chandrasekaran __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jun 30 19:02:09 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 12:02:09 -0700 Subject: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts + M.Muller Message-ID: <161227059456.23782.12784399102824325001.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > By the same token, many river names in Tamilnadu > hardly seem to be of Tamil (or SDr) origin. For > example, keTilam, vaiyai, kAviri, noyyal, koLLiTam, > 'kabini' or the Sanskrit sounding names like pavAni, > tAmiravaruNi or stems of rivers with -ARu suffixes > like aricilARu, veNNARu, veTTARu, pAlARu etc.. > > Are there perhaps acceptable etymologies in the > literature for these? Perhaps we must look into Munda, IA, Burmo-Tibetan, etc.,? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jun 30 22:58:08 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 18:58:08 -0400 Subject: Bibliographic information needed, Virashaivite volume Message-ID: <161227059458.23782.12472463352063077861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I've been asked to try to identify the following book. The information I've been given is as follows. It is a volume of a large series of unabridged Virashaivite texts published by the University of Karnataka which contains a long debate between Basavanna, Akkamahadevi and Allama Prabhu, and is in english. Do any of the list members recognize this description and if any of the publishers who are members of the list can supply it then please let me know. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From sacp at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Sun Jun 18 15:12:10 2000 From: sacp at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU (Society for Asian & Comparative Philosophy) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 00 16:12:10 +0100 Subject: SACP 4th International Research Conf. in Asian & Comparative Phil. Message-ID: <161227059204.23782.15101757203968516331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* www.missouri.edu/~sacp/ *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* The 4th International Research Conference in Asian & Comparative Philosophy will be held Sept. 28-Oct. 1, 2000 at the Holiday Inn Executive Center in Columbia, MO, USA. The conference theme is "Time and History: East and West," although papers and panels are invited on any subject of interest to Society members. All SACP members and friends of the Society are encouraged to participate. 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If you have not yet renewed your membership for 2000, application forms are available in any back issue of the SACP Forum, or online at the Society Web site. Rates in the U.S. and Canada are $20/yr. for individual membership ($8/yr. for a student or professor emeritus). If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact SACP President Bina Gupta at guptab at missouri.edu. --------------------------------------------------------- Society for Asian and Comparative Philosophy 4th International Research Meeting on Asian & Comparative Philosophy? "Time and History: East and West" Sept. 28- Oct. 1, 2000 Holiday Inn Executive Center, Columbia, Missouri, U.S.A. www.missouri.edu/~sacp/IM2000/ CONFERENCE REGISTRATION FORM Name: Institution/School: Mailing Address: Email: Phone: Fax: Check all that apply: ___ I would like to submit a paper to the conference. The tentative title of my paper is: ___ I would like to volunteer to serve on a panel or as a reviewer for this conference. Check one of the following: ___ I am enclosing a check for $100.00. ___ I am a student or independent scholar. I am enclosing a check for $50.00. Make checks payable to Society for Asian & Comparative Philosophy and send to: Bina Gupta, Dept. of Philosophy, 437 GCB, University of Missouri, Columbia, MO 65211. Send hardcopy and electronic version of abstracts to address above, or by email to: guptab at missouri.edu. Note that the conference registration fee is non-refundable. --------------------------------------------------------- From hbd at ddit.ernet.in Tue Jun 20 10:13:39 2000 From: hbd at ddit.ernet.in (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 00 15:43:39 +0530 Subject: two new papers Message-ID: <394F43D3.A87A9C0D@ddit.ernet.in> Dear List members, I have put two new papers as follows on our web site : ddit.ernet.in They are available via anonymous FTP under the directory pub/hbdave/papers The papers and files are : etasha_300.ps.gz Etasha's Prattle (aitashapralapa.h) this is one of the so called Khila sukta in RigVeda, which may be of interest to some members of this List. The sukta vividly describes the experience of a meditator. Some of the utterances match with what Shri Ramana Maharshi taught. prahlika_300.ps.gz so called Pravahlika sukta, which describes the activity of mind, jeeva or Durga (as the female aspect of the Ultimate Reality). The word used for these is kumari (not kumarii). These sukta very clearly show that meditation practice preceeded RigVeda and was matured by the time RigVeda was composed. These suktas has interpretation in terms of Advaita also, of course. I hope some of you may find these useful. -- Himanshu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sacp at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Wed Jun 21 11:26:54 2000 From: sacp at SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU (Society for Asian & Comparative Philosophy) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 00 12:26:54 +0100 Subject: SACP's Time & History: East & West 9/28-10/1/00 Message-ID: <161227059247.23782.15326756036667056978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Society for Asian and Comparative Philosophy 4th International Research Meeting in Asian and Comparative Philosophy? "Time and History: East and West" Sept. 28- Oct. 1, 2000 Holiday Inn Executive Center Columbia, Missouri, USA www.missouri.edu/~sacp/ Until recently, discussions about time- and history-conceptions in the East and West have been dominated by clich?s, such as: the Western conception of time is linear whereas the Eastern conception of time is cyclic; or, the West under the Judeo-Christian influence developed history while the East, especially India, remained ahistorical. However, contemporary investigation is demonstrating that these clich?s have no factual basis. Stephen J. Gould, for example, argues that Western culture has employed both the metaphors of time's arrow (time as linear) and time as cyclic in different contexts. This may be said of the Eastern conception of time. We are overdue to abandon simplistic generalizations and take a look at facts. We must address the idea of time with new eyes. Our task makes it imperative that we take into account not only empirical and scientific theories, but also metaphysical ones. We need to consider what conceptions of natural processes have persisted in a culture, what cosmological theories of the universe?s origin have been held, what techniques have been used to measure time, and what units of time have been used for calculation. We also need to consider other questions in need of a fresh appraisal, such as: Is time finite or infinite? Is time a changeless order of moments (McTaggart?s A-series)? Or is it a flowing stream flux (McTaggart?s B- series)? How is time in any culture connected to human experience, consciousness, or subjectivity?-- (considering, for instance, Augustine, Kant, and Husserl on one hand and Aristotle, Taoism, and modern physics on the other). How is time related to space in a given culture? As for history?there is, first, a need to determine what kinds of historical writings are to be found in ancient cultures such as those of Greece, India, and China. What value has been placed on history by various cultures? What connection does the prevailing conception of history in a culture have to its predominant religious world-view, to its ecshatological conception? What connection does this conception have to the relation between human beings and gods? In the context of religion, the distinction between sacred and profane time, sacred and profane space, must be considered as it has occurred in different cultures. We must further ask-- Has there been a conception of human progress in every culture; if so, do these conceptions bear a recognizable pattern? In the Indian context, it is also important to ask how the ideas of karma, rebirth and moks\a relate to time and history. Do karma and rebirth operate in the same dimension of time as other natural events, or in another dimension? Given that history is the history of community while karma is that of an individual, does it make more sense to argue that karma operates in a dimension that is essentially different from history? Or, could we argue that the history of a community is the outer manifestation of the invisible karma of its members? In the context of moks\a, it needs to be examined whether moks\a transcends time and history, while as a phenomenon still occurring in history. Similar questions can be raised in terms of Confucian and Taoist thinking. Is the Taoist notion of eternal return based on the cyclic conception of time? Likewise, is the Confucian remembrance of a long forgotten tradition to be preserved by learning founded upon a linear conception of time? What of the relationship held by other complex metaphysical concepts from other intellectual traditions to these two central concepts, time and history? These are only some of the avenues which participants might explore. These subjects promise numerously varied nuances for investigators to examine, amplify and modify in accordance with their own insights and interests. It is only at the end of such a research project that we may be in a better position to be able to think about the larger question? where do conceptions of time and history differ in the East and the West?? without falling prey to the usual clich?s and unexamined hypotheses of overly simplistic formulae. Papers and panels are also welcome on topics other than the "Time and History" theme. Send registration forms (available online at www.missouri.edu/~sacp/ IM2000/reg200.html) and fees to: Bina Gupta, SACP President Department of Philosophy 437 General Classroom Bldg. University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65211 Fax: (573) 884-8949 Email: guptab at missouri.edu