From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Jul 1 01:50:49 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 00 21:50:49 -0400 Subject: Info on satyavacana Message-ID: <161227059460.23782.8138022423408943565.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 6/30/00 7:30:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > As so often people hit on the same solution (Lueders!) at the same time: so > far missing, thus: > > Brown, N. W. 1940. The basis for the Hindu Act of Truth, Review of > Religions 5, 36-45. > > _____. 1941. The Hindu Act of Truth, Religious Digest 12.64, 23-25 > > _____. 1963: Rg Veda 10.34 as an Act of Truth, Bharatiya Vidya 20-21, 8-10. > > _____. 1968. The Metaphysics of the Truth Act (*Satyakriya), Melanges > d'Indianisme a la memoire de L. Renou, Paris 171-177. > > > Some of this reprinted in: > _____. 1978. India and Indology. Delhi. > Well, I agree with the general point here. Both Lueders and Brown recognized that the satyakriyA, though itself a term unattested in Vedic, was a concept and a practice that was well-known in Vedic. But I also think that there is an important difference between them. In the article cited by Carlos Lopez I argued that the view of Lueders is that the satyakriyA is magical, whereas the view of Brown is that it is ethical. Furthermore, I argued that the view of Lueders is more accurate than Brown's, who I think was susceptible to a certain amount of anachronistic interpretation of Vedic texts in this context. For example, I do not think that RV 10.34, the famous hymn of the gambler, represents a satyakriyA at all [pace Brown]. No, in my view the speech act which we encounter in this hymn is an oath, not a satyakriyA, which in my view is a 'magical performative.' Well, in general, the point of my article was to suggest that it would be good to carefully consider the difference between various speech-acts encountered in Vedic, such as oaths. vows, curses, confessions, ordeals, or boasts -- and satyakriyAs. In order to encourage such careful discriminations I resorted to speech-act theory. In any case, I have found the position of Lueders much stronger than that of Brown. Best wishes, George Thompson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 1 13:12:43 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 00 06:12:43 -0700 Subject: kAkandi, a town Message-ID: <161227059463.23782.9611001566686201758.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am interested in learning about the place, kAkandi/kAkaMdI. According to the Buddhist epic, maNimEkalai, "kAkanti" is the name of the port-town where the mouth of the river, kAveri is located. Also, there are 10th-11th century Chola inscriptions in another place, kAkanti north of Madras. Near SriharikOTTa, an ISRO center. The pANDurangesvarar temple here has an inscription, (for example):"kaTalkoNTa pavattirik kOTTak kAkanti" ("kAkanti, in the county of Pavattiri which was destroyed by the sea"). Pavattiri is mentioned in sangam works(akanAnURu 340). Tamil scholars tell that pavattiri/pauvattiri refers to seafaring. I will check if J. Fillozat, "PaaNDaraGga-PaaNDuraGga" in The Journal of Oriental Research, Madras, XXIV-XXV, 1973, p. 31-32. (Or, is it only about Shiva's dance??) talks about this kAkanti which goes nowadays by the name pANDurangam. After the Vijayanagar empire's days, the British first settled in this kAkanti, before moving onto Madras. Interestingly, there is an inscription engraved on a railing of the south-eastern quadrant of the Bharhut stupa. It reads "kAkaMdiya somAya bhichhuniya dAnaM", (Inscription no. A37, Bharhut inscriptions, Ed. by H. Luders, Revided by E. Waldschmidt and M.A. Mahindale, ASI, 1963). This railing is preserved in the Indian museum, Calcutta. I. Mahadevan, (Identification of KAkaMdi in Bharhut inscriptions, p. 145-148, G. John Samuel (ed.), Buddhism in Tamil nadu: Collected papers, 1998, Chennai: Inst. of Asian studies), identifies the kAkandi mentioned in Bharhut as KaveripaTTinam based on MaNimEkalai references. On p.146, I. Mahadevan writes: "The KA"sikA on Panini (iv,2, 123)cites the name as that of a place in the east, quoting the derivation KAkandaka, inhabitant of KAkandI. In paramattha jotikaa, SAvatthi ("SrAvastI) is said to have originally been the residence of the RSi Savattha, just as Kosambi was the abode of Kusumba and KAkandI that of Kakanda. (yathaa kusubassa nivAso kosambI, kakandassa kAkandI). [6] Hulzsch has referred to the mention of KAkandI in Jaina literature (paTTAvalI of Kharatavagachha). [7] Luders has also cited recent references to KAkandI by earlier scholars. [8] According to PAia Sadda MahaNNavo (Prakrit-Hindi dictionary, PTS, Varanasi, 1963), KAkandI (variously spelt Ka-iMdI or KaagaMdI in the sources listed here) was the name of a town (nagari). However the gloss 'in Bihar' seems to have been added by the compilers of the dictionary as the exact location of the place (except that it was 'in the east'), has not been mentioned in the Sanskrit and Prakrit works. It appears to me that the failure to identify kAkandI is due to the fact that the search was confined to Sanskrit and Prakrit as the references cited above would show. Scholars familiar with early tamil literature should have no difficulty in identifying kAkandI with KaverippUmpattinam (PukAr) ..." My question: Does the wide occurence of kAkandi in North Indian literature point to any city in the Northeast India? Is it a port town? Apart from the two S. Indian places cited here. Many thanks for any info, references, pointers on Kaakandi, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Jul 1 12:26:50 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 00 14:26:50 +0200 Subject: Bibliographic information needed, Virashaivite volume In-Reply-To: <20000630225808.52664.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059461.23782.3792555759010056915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 30 Jun 2000, um 18:58 schrieb Harry Spier: > Dear list members, > > I've been asked to try to identify the following book. The > information I've been given is as follows. It is a volume of a large > series of unabridged Virashaivite texts published by the University of > Karnataka which contains a long debate between Basavanna, Akkamahadevi > and Allama Prabhu, and is in english. Do any of the list members > recognize this description and if any of the publishers who are > members of the list can supply it then please let me know. This has to be the _;Suunyasa.mpaadane_ of Guu.luura Siddhaviira.naarya, tr. by various people, 5 vols., Dharwad: Karnatak University, 1965-1972. But I'm afraid it's out of print. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos Institut fuer Indologie und Tamilistik Universitaet zu Koeln E-mail zydenbos at gmx.li From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 2 04:50:53 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 00 21:50:53 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059465.23782.1381949430461853038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can I invoke once more the immunity of an outsider and ask a naive question -- and make a far-reaching (but maybe easily overturned) suggestion? Can anyone point to evidence of *any* sort that suggests that extended texts existed in Harappan culture, as a lot of Indologists assume? That assumption isn't limited to OIT proponents or Indian nationalists hoping to tie Harappan culture directly to Vedic sources. Even Asko Parpola (1994: 54), pointing to the Aztecs, imagines a lost Harappan literature that his Aztec parallels imply may have included extensive religious, legal, historical, scientific, and even philosophical texts. Parpola hypothesizes that 'The normal writing material is likely to have been the perishable palm leaf, as it was in India until this century, or cotton cloth....' Despite the stunning nature of his suggestion, the whole of Parpola's analysis consumes less than 1/2 page of his dense 374-page book; no counterarguments against his suggestion are mentioned, let alone discussed. Gregory Possehl (1996) admits the 'undenial logic' of the notion of lost Harappan texts, but cautions us about the perils in archaeology of relying simply on 'logic.' Iravatham Mahadevan (http://www.harappa.com/script/mahadevantext.html) also grants the possibility of lost Harappan texts once recorded on perishable materials, but is again more circumspect than Parpola; Mahadevan registers his deep disappointment that even the massive wooden wall inscription from Dholavira isn't much more than a 'magnified version of a seal.' And, indeed, ten characters don't constitute much of a 'text.' Others, like Koenraad Elst, who collaborates closely with extreme OIT proponents (see the acknowledgements in Talageri 2000) are understandably far less cautious. In one online paper, entitled 'The Vedic Harappans in Writing,' Elst writes that 'There is not the slightest doubt that this harvest of Harappan writings [the 4200-odd seals he notes] is but the tip of an iceberg, in this sense that the Harappan culture must have produced much more copious writings, but that most of them disappeared because the writing materials were not resistant to the ravages of time, particularly in the Indian climate.' Is there an 'undenial logic' in the notion of an extensive Harappan literature, or even the certainty of 'copious writings'? I'd like to offer four arguments from comparative history that suggest, on the contrary, that *no* written Harappan literature ever existed. That evidence doesn't depend on 'arguments from silence' and has nothing to do with the warm and damp climate of the Indus Valley. If valid, the arguments suggest that we can safe;u predict that we'll *never* find even indirect evidence of extended Harappan texts -- and that no Rosetta stone is ever likely to appear that will allow us to confidently decipher the script. (I leave aside here claims by Jha and Rajaram that the code has been broken, joining the legions of past claims of this nature documented by Possehl; my copy of their new book, reportedly airmailed to me from India back in mid May, has yet to arrive.) There may very well be flaws in my argument; hopefully, someone will point them out. I claim no specialized knowledge at all about Harappan script: 1. Harappan script (as emphasized by Parpola 1994: 54) shows unusually little internal development from c. 2600 BCE to c. 1900 BCE (to use Parpola's dates). This is *sharply* at odds with what is known of the development of logo-syllabic systems in societies with fully developed literate traditions. Indeed, we can observe striking evolutionary developments in such scripts in a number of Mesopotamian scripts emerging in *exactly* the same period that Parpola identifies with mature Harappan culture. Whenever literary production was extensive -- as Parpola himself emphasizes in respect to other historical cases -- scribal pressures gradually pushed scripts in simplifying directions; expected changes included simplification of shapes, movements towards fully syllabic forms, and a concomitant drop in the number of symbols. These simplifying tendencies can even be identified when evidence suggests that religious-political authorities actively tried to retard these innovations. Admittedly, studies of the evolution of Harappan writing have been limited by the uncontrolled nature of early IVC excavations, and arguments can be given that Parola overemphasized the 'fixity' of Harappan script. Nevertheless, agreement appears to be widespread that Harappan writing was relatively 'frozen' over many centuries, at least when compared with scripts that rapidly evolved in Mesopotamia in the same period. This is difficult to imagine in any fully literate society producing 'copious writings'; it is *not* difficult to imagine if Harappan symbols had highly restricted uses, if centralized control was tight, and if there was little scribal pressure (due to radically restricted use of the writing system) for script simplification. Indeed, innovations in Harappan script appear to be as heavily controlled as those in weights and spatial measures. Try to imagine a modern literate society -- e.g., my beloved Italy -- in which no radical shifts in writing took place from Dante to the present! Any such example would vastly understate the problem, since after the 15th century the evolution of script was actively inhibited by printed documents. 2. If extended Harappan texts were written on perishable materials, auxillary evidence should have survived that points to the use of such materials. As Mahadevan points out, e.g., if the copper stylus was used with palm leaves, the stylus should be found among known artefacts; the same argument can be applied to instruments associated with other types of lightweight writing materials. Comparative evidence from the Shang dynasty here is extremely instructive. Glyphs and other evidence from the Shang dynasty point to the existence of bamboo-slip 'texts' some 800 years before any such documents show up in tombs (c. 400 BCE). But even in the absence of such evidence, many different types of artefacts attest that the Shang and early Zhou dynasties were truly literate: cast bronze texts, etchings on knives and other metallic objects or jade, and of course the famous bone and tortoise shell divination texts. But while the Harappans too left metal tablets behind, once again -- just as in the case of the giant Dholavira wooden 'billboard' -- all we find on these inscriptions are the same types of truncated 'texts' found on Harappan seals. Citing still further evidence from comparative history: Only four pre-Columbian Maya texts survive, but even if these didn't extant, no one could doubt the existence of extended Maya; thousands of stelae, engraved bricks, and other objects argue to the contrary. But all this is again lacking in Harappan culture. In Egypt, of course, if not a single scrap of papyrus survived, it would be child's play to demonstrate from architectual remains that the ancient Egyptians had a full writing system. The earliest evidence of the use of papyrus comes, in fact, from wall paintings of papyrus rolls; and writing instruments too, of course, have survived in profusion. Finally, it can be pointed out that much evidence exists that the Babylonians and Assyrians not only wrote on clay, but (and this is far less well known), on animal skins as well. This is attested by extensive iconographical evidence known since the first decades of this century. Again, no evidence of this nature has ever emerged, so far as I know, from Harappan sites. In sum, comparative history offers a lot of evidence -- from many sources -- that 'copious writings' of no sort ever existed in the Harappan script. 3. The suggestion that it is unlikely that any urban society as complex as that of the Harappans could exist without literate traditions -- a view claimed by Parpola and others -- may seem obvious, but is demonstrably wrong. Parpola's choice (1994: 54) of the Aztecs to make his case was a disastrous choice, since it is well known that the Aztecs (unlike the neighboring Maya) did *not* possess anything approximating a full writing system. Aztec picture books provided elaborate mnemonic aids, but they could not be 'read' in the same way that texts were read in societies with fully literate traditions. Even in the absence of a true writing system, the Aztecs efficiently managed cities with far larger and much denser populations than those of the Harappans; many of the *suburban* centers surrounding Tenochtitlan contained hundreds of thousands of inhabitants! Other urbanized cultures also functioned without full writing systems -- or without writing systems at all. These included the Harappan's close BMAC neighbors (who had seals but no writing at all), the Incas (who had to make due with their quipu mnemonics), and (apparently) the early kingdoms of the Ganges plains that helped build the foundations of later empires in India. 4. Another piece of evidence (pointed out to me off-List today by one well-known Vedicist) involves the surprisingly low frequency of many known Harappan symbols; for evidence, see the chart in Parpola 1994: 78. Of the 417 Harappan symbols listed in Parpola's chart, no less than 264 -- a whopping 63% of Parpola's total-- appear no more than 1 to 9 times in all known inscriptions! Moreover, recent evidence suggests that there were probably more independent symbols around than Parpola thought, making this trend even more striking. This is most easily explained by the ad hoc introduction of logographic symbols for limited use -- e.g., to describe professions; the majority of these symbols were clearly *not* syllabic. In any fully literate tradition, the number of symbols like this should have lessened over time; again, no evidence of any sort suggests that in Harappan this simplification took place. So in sum, after so many decades of excavations, all we still have are some 4000-odd seals, a large number of those duplicates, averaging a couple of characters in length, in which the largest percentage of symbols appear only a handful of times. This is not what one would expect in a fully developed writing system that produced 'copious writings'; the suggestion is that this isn't the 'tip' of things but the whole iceberg. This is what we would expect of an extremely limited script used for ID badges, probably carried under compulsion by every citizen (cf. Herodotus 1.195 for the Babylonians!); communications with divine forces through votive offerings; and commercial tags for customs purposes. But comparative history argues *strongly* that the script was not used for broader 'literary' purposes. Comparative historians are like jesters and fools -- allowed as misfits and outsiders to shout out obvious points that insiders don't usually utter. Most of the time, of course, what jesters and fools shout out *is* foolish; only occasionally can they hope to hit on some half truth. Have I overlooked something terribly obvious? Do the real Indologists have evidence that overturns these four arguments? My best, Steve Farmer From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 2 12:27:13 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 00 05:27:13 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059468.23782.15413271818609942532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Probably, the IVC did not care about developing much writing even though they interacted heavily with Sumerians; Just used some logographic symbols to denote the owner's name or kulam in the seals . W. A. Fairservis points to composite animals representing a combination of diiferent groups. However, it appears IVC should have developed mnemonics well enough. And traditions of grammatical analysis. Parpola and others point to crab as denoting graha(planet), fish as denoting star using Dravidian words common to fish/star etc., IE spread from the PIE homeland (Southern Russia?) all over the world. But the linguistic analysis of an IE language was done only in the IVC region, not anywhere else. The reason: After the language change, the acculturated IVC people applied their language analysis skills to Sanskrit and developed it further. Both Sanskrit and Tamil have traditions of poetry long passed on orally before being rendered in writing. Tamil classical poetry content is so unique, and it could not have been produced just when writing was introduced a couple of centuries before Christ. Centuries of selection of words, grammar and aestheics must have preceded. Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sun Jul 2 05:52:15 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 00 07:52:15 +0200 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059467.23782.3330810870235367760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Steve Farmer for his thought-provoking remarks on the Harappan script, or absence thereof. > Can anyone point to evidence of *any* sort that suggests that extended > texts existed in Harappan culture, as a lot of Indologists assume? > That assumption isn't limited to OIT proponents or Indian nationalists > hoping to tie Harappan culture directly to Vedic sources. Even Asko > Parpola (1994: 54), pointing to the Aztecs, imagines a lost Harappan > literature that his Aztec parallels imply may have included extensive > religious, legal, historical, scientific, and even philosophical > texts. > Others, like Koenraad Elst, who collaborates closely with extreme OIT > proponents (see the acknowledgements in Talageri 2000) are > understandably far less cautious. Talageri "extreme"? He is extremely logical in extracting all the information from the Vedic data, a corpus at which numerous scholars have been staring for the past two centuries without understanding the historical and chronological elements in it. > In one online paper, entitled 'The > Vedic Harappans in Writing,' Elst writes that 'There is not the > slightest doubt that this harvest of Harappan writings [the 4200-odd > seals he notes] is but the tip of an iceberg, in this sense that the > Harappan culture must have produced much more copious writings, but > that most of them disappeared because the writing materials were not > resistant to the ravages of time, particularly in the Indian climate.' This is standard Parpola, as pointed out by SF himself. This is not a thesis I put forward, but a part of the introduction recapitulating matters of consensus. So i thought it was, and it is quite new to me that someone takes the "extreme" position > that we'll *never* find > even indirect evidence of extended Harappan texts -- and that no > Rosetta stone is ever likely to appear that will allow us to > confidently decipher the script. and that > this isn't the 'tip' of things but > the whole iceberg. Well, why not? But then we shouldn't make things too easy for revolutionaries, and consider the following. > 1. Harappan script (as emphasized by Parpola 1994: 54) shows unusually > little internal development from c. 2600 BCE to c. 1900 BCE (to use > Parpola's dates). This is *sharply* at odds with what is known of the > development of logo-syllabic systems in societies with fully developed > literate traditions. Indeed, we can observe striking evolutionary > developments in such scripts in a number of Mesopotamian scripts > emerging in *exactly* the same period that Parpola identifies with > mature Harappan culture. Whenever literary production was extensive -- > as Parpola himself emphasizes in respect to other historical cases -- > scribal pressures gradually pushed scripts in simplifying directions; > expected changes included simplification of shapes, movements towards > fully syllabic forms, and a concomitant drop in the number of symbols. That is precisely what S.R. Rao has demonstrated in his introduction to his own attempted decipherment (Dawn and Devolution of the Indus Civilization). While his decipherment is flawed (though probably on the right track, and agreeing on many points with independent decipherments by other Indians), he may have done something very important by showing that the youngest Harappan seals have fewer signs, and esp. fewer complicated ones. > Nevertheless, agreement appears to be > widespread that Harappan writing was relatively 'frozen' over many > centuries, at least when compared with scripts that rapidly evolved in > Mesopotamia in the same period. > Try to imagine a modern literate society -- e.g., my beloved Italy -- > in which no radical shifts in writing took place from Dante to the > present! Any such example would vastly understate the problem, since > after the 15th century the evolution of script was actively inhibited > by printed documents. This comparison is as ill-advised as Parpola's Aztec one. Italian uses the same alphabet it used in Dante's days, and even orthography has evolved but little (compared e.g. to Dutch). Further, cuneiform was fairly fixed after its formative period, and was in use for three times as long as Parpola's Harappan (2600-1900 BC). Hieroglyphics too were quite "frozen". Chinese was very fixed for over 22 centuries (3rd BC to 20th AD). > 2. If extended Harappan texts were written on perishable materials, > auxillary evidence should have survived that points to the use of such > materials. > Only four > pre-Columbian Maya texts survive, but even if these didn't extant, no > one could doubt the existence of extended Maya; thousands of stelae, > engraved bricks, and other objects argue to the contrary. But all this > is again lacking in Harappan culture. > Again, no evidence of this nature has ever emerged, so > far as I know, from Harappan sites. > In sum, comparative history offers a lot of evidence -- from many > sources -- that 'copious writings' of no sort ever existed in the > Harappan script. No comment on this point as yet. > 3. The suggestion that it is unlikely that any urban society as > complex as that of the Harappans could exist without literate > traditions -- a view claimed by Parpola and others -- may seem > obvious, but is demonstrably wrong. Parpola's choice (1994: 54) of the > Aztecs to make his case was a disastrous choice, since it is well > known that the Aztecs (unlike the neighboring Maya) did *not* possess > anything approximating a full writing system. In the IVC, by contrast, we do find a developed writing system, applied uniformly over a vast area, even if so far only attested on seals. The uniformity of this and other usages does make it hard to believe that it was all done without writing, but here we are merely speculating on what is possible, and no doubt several different scenarios are possible. But again, while illiterate urban civilizations are possible, IVC literacy is a fact. > 4. Another piece of evidence (pointed out to me off-List today by one > well-known Vedicist) involves the surprisingly low frequency of many > known Harappan symbols; for evidence, see the chart in Parpola 1994: > 78. Of the 417 Harappan symbols listed in Parpola's chart, no less > than 264 -- a whopping 63% of Parpola's total-- appear no more than 1 > to 9 times in all known inscriptions! Moreover, recent evidence > suggests that there were probably more independent symbols around than > Parpola thought, making this trend even more striking. This is most > easily explained by the ad hoc introduction of logographic symbols for > limited use -- e.g., to describe professions; the majority of these > symbols were clearly *not* syllabic. In any fully literate tradition, > the number of symbols like this should have lessened over time; again, > no evidence of any sort suggests that in Harappan this simplification > took place. See ref. to SR Rao above. The situation described by SF resembles that in Japanese, where syllabic script is used in combination with Chinese logographs. It is unclear how SF's source decided on what is a symbol: many distinct symbols (some of which are hapax legomenon, appearing only once or only a few times) are very likely combinations of simpler symbols, just as in Devanagari script consonants clusters may be rendered by combined consonant signs. Thus, the "man with antlers" sign may be read as a picturesque logograph (as in most Dravidianist and other non-Sanskritic readings of the IVC script), but it may also be analysed into several simpler signs, with the "antlers" really being the very common "jar" signs. > So in sum, after so many decades of excavations, all we still have are > some 4000-odd seals, a large number of those duplicates, averaging a > couple of characters in length, in which the largest percentage of > symbols appear only a handful of times. This is not what one would > expect in a fully developed writing system that produced 'copious > writings'. This is what we would expect of an extremely > limited script used for ID badges, probably carried under compulsion > by every citizen; > communications with divine forces through votive offerings; and > commercial tags for customs purposes. But comparative history argues > *strongly* that the script was not used for broader 'literary' > purposes. In spite of my counter-arguments given above, I am quite ready to countenance this surprising minimization of IVC literacy. But far from offending OIT proponents, this view of the IVC should be welcomed by them. After all, it is said of Vedic civilization that it was entirely or very largely oral, making it very different from the literate IVC; but now the same thing is asserted for that very IVC. All the best, K. Elst From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 2 14:47:32 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 00 10:47:32 -0400 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) In-Reply-To: <20000630185358.11294.qmail@web701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227059470.23782.16076443320137784281.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In answer to several messages listed under both threads: Obviously, when trying to etymologize S. Indian river names we have to try all Dravidian possibilities, -- within the realm of probability. River names are preferably taken from the color, speed, shape of rivers, but also from many other concepts than can be associated with rivers. When I -jokingly- refered to "palm tree" rivers recently (and last year), I did not have access to K.H. Pinnow's Berlin dissertation (unprinted) on Indian River names. (1951). Among the many hundreds of river names, he has a list of some 30 rivers based on tree names (there also are those based on flowers, lotus especially, grass, reed, sugar cane, pepper,and some other plants). The tree names (how could I forget the plakSa-born Sarasvatii?) include: * fig trees (plakSa, udumbara, pippala) * sandal wood (candana) * rose apple (jambu) * 'wine palm' (tAladhvajI, varuNatAlI, haritAla) * other trees: betel nut, palAza, kadamba, rohitaka, zalmali There have been many studies, especially in S. India, on toponymy, see the coll. volume: Nachimuthu, K. and Puthusseri Ramachandran (eds.) Perspectives in Place Name Studies : Proceedings of the National Seminar on South Indian Place Names, Held at Trivandrum on 21-23 June 1985. A Festschrift to Prof. V.I. Subramoniam, On His Sixtieth Birth Day. Trivandrum : Place Name Society, 1987. Of course, we have to look to non-Skt, non-Drav. sources as well. There is, after all, a Nilgiri substrate (Zvelebil 1990). And the Nahal/Nihal on the Tapti river have some 26% vocabulary that is pre-Munda, pre-Drav., pre-Indo-Aryan (in that order; Kuiper 1962; latest news from Asha Mundlay in Mother Tongue: Nihali lexicon, MT II, 1996, 17-40. (note, MT = $ 25 only per year, see: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/aslip.html ) And there are, also, the Vedda in Sri Lanka with another unknown substrate. Plus other remnants (Kusunda in the Nepalese Himalayas, Burushaski in N. Pakistan, Andamanese) The latter is now very much endangered by immigration from the Indian mainland; just a few hundred are left. Important (but not enough studied yet) as they are remnants, its seems, of the first Out-of-Africa emigration eastwards some 50 kya, and perhaps to be linked with Papuan, see Greenberg. We cannot yet tell about the other remnant languages listed here, but see recent vols. of Mother Tongue!) In sum: just as there were, in North India, many non-IA languages before the IA ones spread everywhere, see http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html (Oct. 1999), there were pre-Dravidian languages in S.India. In other words, the Nahals are the "oldest Indians". Genetics eventually will tell the tale. You can follow these discussions in Mother Tongue and in the associated ASLIP/MotherTongue newsletters, now re-named Long Ranger: this via the website mentioned above). I always hope that this perspective, -- we all come out of Africa after all -- would dilute the N/S, "Aryan"/Dravidian debate, but maybe in vain. ------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 2 21:00:56 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 00 14:00:56 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' Message-ID: <161227059473.23782.8925508924544353067.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Elst responded to random pieces of my four arguments from comparative history that Harappan script was *not* used to create a full literature. That makes it difficult to respond, since if I were to answer only the points he quoted the systematic flavor of those arguments would be lost. I'll instead limit myself to correcting some of the glaring misinformation in just one of Dr. Elst's paragraphs -- using this as an example of problems found elsewhere in his post. Let's pick one paragraph at random; Elst writes: > cuneiform was fairly fixed after > its formative period, and was in use for three times as long as Parpola's > Harappan (2600-1900 BC). Hieroglyphics too were quite "frozen". Chinese > was very fixed for over 22 centuries (3rd BC to 20th AD). All three points here are misleading or dead wrong: 1. On writing in Mesopotamia: My point about cuneiform scripts was that we can watch them develop rapidly in *exactly the same period* that Parpola's Harappan (2600-1900 BCE) was 'frozen.' It is this contrast in the same time frame that demonstrates how anomalous the Harappan script was. My argument was that there was no scribal pressure for simplification in IVC because the script had very limited uses. If an extended 'lost literature' existed, we would expect to see the results of this scribal pressure in the evolution of the script. This evidence strongly suggests that no 'lost literature' existed. 2. On Egypt: Despite what Dr. Elst claims, Egyptian writing was anything *but* frozen -- no matter whether you consider its hieroglyphic, hieratic, or demotic forms. Both hieratic and demotic scripts were, of course, evolutionary adaptations of hieroglyphics, arising from the same kinds of scribal pressures towards simplification found in every premodern society in which extensive literary records existed; this is radically different from what is known of Harappan culture, as I've argued at length. Even the most ancient and formal writing system in Egypt -- religious hieroglyphics -- was anything *but* 'frozen.' New signs were constantly being introduced and others fell rapidly out of use; the shapes of the same hieroglyphics also changed. To cite just one example (out of thousands) that Vedicists might find interesting: The symbols for horse and chariot (whose glyphs clearly show spoked wheels -- see attached jpeg file) first appeared in the New Kingdom (after c. 1570 BCE) -- about the same time that lightweight spoked chariots began appearing elsewhere in Eurasia, including India. (OITers note!) In sum, the changes in hieroglyphics over time in Egypt were quite radical -- exactly, once again, what we don't find in Harappan script. Over 6,000 symbols total are known in Egyptian hieroglyphics from the beginning down to the Greco-Roman period; but far less than 1,000 of those were used at any one time. (In the Middle Kingdom, the number of active symbols is reported to have been around 700.) So again, pace Dr. Elst, Egyptian hieroglyphics were anything but 'frozen.' 3. Elst's last claim -- concerning Chinese -- is even further off the mark. The argument that 'Chinese was very fixed for over 22 centuries (3rd BC to 20th AD)' would certainly startle my Sinological colleagues, who continue to argue over the meanings of classical (let alone more ancient) Chinese! In any case, no modern Chinese reader can read classical Chinese without several intense years of training. When we go back further to the Chinese of the Shang dynasty -- which is closer in time to the Harappan case -- the problems are still worse. Few people in the world, in fact -- including specialists in *classical* Chinese -- can read Shang divination texts. In any event, 'guwen' (literally 'ancient writing' = classical Chinese) is radically different from modern Chinese. My friend E. Bruce Brooks (U. Mass. at Amherst and the Warring States Project; see his groundbreaking destratification of the Lun yu in _The Original Analects_ 1997) has recently posted a few sample lessons in classical Chinese for those who want to taste ancient Chinese (and here I quote Bruce's totally inimitable prose) "without requiring of them the preliminary labor of first mastering a distantly related language (modern Chinese), in which a few false friends rub elbows in the dictionary with a host of strangers...." I recommend to Elst and others on this List Bruce's sample lesson, which he plans to expand if and when enough students show up. Take a look at it at http://www.umass.edu/wsp/method/classical/index.html. I hope it is clear that arguments in comparative history demand just as much rigor as arguments in single scholarly fields. Regards, Steve Farmer -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: horseandchariot.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 11345 bytes Desc: not available URL: From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Mon Jul 3 05:32:30 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 06:32:30 +0100 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' In-Reply-To: <395FAD1F.9C2540B0@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227059475.23782.8348080732380836916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The problem with Steve Farmer's argument here is that it is basically an argument from silence. Indian archaeology is far less developed than most of the other areas mentioned, both in quality and in quantity. You tend to get a rather simplistic view in that situation. More excavation and more data is likely to complicate the picture. So it is perfectly possible that writing was used in some more complex ways. It is equally possible that it wasn't. It is also quite possible that it was used for more things we than now have evidence, but remained restricted; e.g. it might not have been used in religious contexts. In the circumstances it would seem pretty stupid to get dogmatic about it. Lancxe Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 3 15:09:15 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 08:09:15 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' Message-ID: <161227059490.23782.3347128672231375353.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > But as a Vedicist I find it only of marginal interest, both because IVC >and Vedic appear to me to have little to do with each other, and because I >fail to see how Vedic can contribute to the goal of >identifying IVC culture. But S.R.Rao claims to read all the IVC seals as Vedic! Also, I have seen exhaustive study of the Rgveda to deduce that Dravidians moved into India after the Aryans. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jul 3 13:16:33 2000 From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 09:16:33 -0400 Subject: Commentarial style In-Reply-To: <01BFE4F8.BA23E480.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227059481.23782.15574569103962606140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gary Tubb has some some unpublished material on this, which he may be hesitant to share with you (for no other reason than his own humility, since the material is very useful). You can ask him directly . EB On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > Dear members of the net: > > I am looking for bibliographical references to papers/books dealing with > Sanskrit commentarial style/method. (I have Peter Hartmann's book on the > subject, but would be grateful for later references). > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no > From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Jul 3 14:37:09 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 10:37:09 -0400 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' Message-ID: <161227059488.23782.16707144352230235942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the remarks of Lance Cousins: As an Indologist, of course, I find the problem of identifying the culture of IVC of great interest. But as a Vedicist I find it only of marginal interest, both because IVC and Vedic appear to me to have little to do with each other, and because I fail to see how Vedic can contribute to the goal of identifying IVC culture. I must say, though, that as an outsider to this field of study, having only a superficial knowledge of the study of the IVC sign system [I will grant that it is a system, for the sake of the argument], I have come to have very much the same sort of questions in mind that Steve Farmer has raised in his recent posts. I think that his post articulates very well my own views [better than I could have presented them myself]. But here are a few points that I would add [and like Steve, I admit that these will no doubt strike the specialists as naive, but it would help me at least to start with the basics]: 1. Maybe it would be better to call Steve's position an argument *for* silence, instead of an argument *from* silence*, since in fact the evidence seems to be, in a very real sense, silent: it does not, at all, tell us all of the amazing things that have been claimed for it. As far as I can tell it is way too premature to talk about the identity of the language or languages of IVC. Before we can do that other things have to be established. 2. What kind of sign system is represented by the IVC system of signs? Do we even know that these signs are tied to a specific language? Could these signs have been 'read' independently of a particular language? I have raised this question before, but I still haven't received an answer that satisfies me. A while back the on this list, in response to a previous post from Steve, the subject of the Incan quipu was raised: a fascinating mnemonic device, independent from writing, which was used by experts [rather like scribes] to recall and reproduce remarkably extendeed and accurate narratives. In my view, there is a decent chance that the sign system of IVC may be more like this Incan sign system than a true writing system. I wish that better informed persons would confirm or deny this possibility. [At least one well-informed scholar allows this possiblity, but I do not wish to drag him into a controversy which he does not wish to enter]. 3. Let us take for granted that the IVC sign system does represent a linguistic system. Given that, what do we know about these signs? Specialists talk about a system containing anywhere from 250 to over 500 distinct signs. They have identified certain frequencies and certain patterns. But have they established the precise nature of the signs that they are studying? Take the famous jar sign. Does it represent a syllable, a morpheme, a word? Can we exclude the possibility that it represents a phrase, or even an enitre narrative [what Propp called a function, or Greimas, an actant]? 4. Say we have a pair of signs that are in regular contiguity. Can we legitimately talk about the second member as a 'suffix' [of course, there is much talk of such things in the literature]? [more in a forthcoming post] Best wishes, and thanks again to Steve Farmer for raising these issues so coherently. George Thompson From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jul 3 18:13:20 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 11:13:20 -0700 Subject: Commentarial style Message-ID: <161227059498.23782.10698533807778863568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars, You might find some of the papers or bibliographical references useful in Jeffrey R. Timm, _Texts in Contexts: Traditional Hermeneutics in South Asia_ (Albany, NY, 1992). Cheers, Steve Edwin Bryant wrote: > > Gary Tubb has some some unpublished material on this, which he may be > hesitant to share with you (for no other reason than his own humility, > since the material is very useful). You can ask him directly > . EB > > On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > > Dear members of the net: > > > > I am looking for bibliographical references to papers/books dealing with > > Sanskrit commentarial style/method. (I have Peter Hartmann's book on the > > subject, but would be grateful for later references). > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lars Martin Fosse > > > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > > 0674 Oslo > > Norway > > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > > Email: lmfosse at online.no > > From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jul 3 19:23:48 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 12:23:48 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059500.23782.5325034609631947718.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie Roebuck writes: > Does anyone know what Hindu religious and philosophical ideas would have > been accessible in Europe by about 1585? For example what were the 'works > of Veaso (Vyaasa)', and other Hindu 'doctors and masters' translated for > the Jesuits and brought to Rome c. 1559 (D. Ferroli, 'The Jesuits in > Malabar', Bangalore, 1939, Volume 2, page 402)? And what did the > Franciscans and Dominicans (active in S. India from the early 1500s) send > back to Europe? I don't know the answer offhand; let me pass this inquiry on to 1000+ Renaissance scholars in a closed forum that I participate in. I'll report back their responses in a few days. Preliminarily, I can pass on one curious reference to discussions of India (involving an Indian traveler in Europe!) that took place four years *before* Vasco da Gama landed in Calcutta. By chance, I stumbled over the reference yesterday. A 1494 letter from the philologist Angelo Poliziano ("father of philology" to Renaissance scholars, who never heard of Saakalya, Yaaska, Panini, or Patanjali, etc.) to the great Renaissance syncretist Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463-94) apologizes for not visiting Pico that morning, as he had promised, "to hear the Indian stranger converse with you on the affairs of his native country." For the letter, see Lillius Gregorius Giraldus, _Dialogi duo de Poetis suorum temporum_ (Florence 1551, Basil 1580, etc.). There can be no doubt that Pico interviewed the Indian visitor about intellectual and not political affairs. In 1486, Pico had proposed a debate in Rome before the Pope and Cardinals "on everything knowable" (de omni re scibili), including materials (broken down into 900 topics and 28 traditions) drawn from "the wise Chaldeans, Arabs, Hebrews, Greeks, Egyptians, and Latins" -- all the major "nations" (gentes) of thinkers then known. And here, 8 years later, we find him interviewing our Indian stranger! More than of passing interest to me (see my book on Pico's 900 theses, _Syncretism in the West_ [1998 [1999]). I didn't know about the Ferroli article -- thanks for pointing it out! Back in a few days, after I check with the Renaissance crowd. Steve Farmer From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Jul 3 20:11:13 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 13:11:13 -0700 Subject: [Re: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism] Message-ID: <161227059502.23782.5004019633667558382.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: ....Vasco da Gama lande ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Jul 3 20:11:14 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 13:11:14 -0700 Subject: [Re: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism] Message-ID: <161227059504.23782.8159405501155644258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote: ....Vasco da Gama landed in Calcutta. Correction- Calicut [Calicutt, Kalikat on the Malabar coast], not Calcutta. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Jul 3 17:30:33 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 13:30:33 -0400 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' Message-ID: <161227059495.23782.5151707080218777026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/3/00 11:20:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > But S.R.Rao claims to read all the IVC seals as Vedic! Also, > I have seen exhaustive study of the Rgveda to deduce that > Dravidians moved into India after the Aryans. > A quick note to acknowledge N. Ganesan's recent response, but I do not wish to respond to it. Attempts at identifying the language[s] of IVC, in my opinion, are not only premature. They are also too controversial! I'd prefer to stick to a lower level of analysis -- in order to talk about the signs themselves, and about proper methods for studying them. Best, George Thompson From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jul 3 11:48:44 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 13:48:44 +0200 Subject: Commentarial style Message-ID: <161227059477.23782.10627825733346173585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net: I am looking for bibliographical references to papers/books dealing with Sanskrit commentarial style/method. (I have Peter Hartmann's book on the subject, but would be grateful for later references). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From garzilli at SHORE.NET Mon Jul 3 13:06:28 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 15:06:28 +0200 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059479.23782.12171237260626873526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, can anybody give me the email of Prof. Ashok Aklujkar (wich I misplaced). Thank you -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE Mon Jul 3 13:44:05 2000 From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 15:44:05 +0200 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059485.23782.15480615026828838296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Enrica, Ashok Aklujkar is presently at Hamburg. You can reach him by this e-mail: fa0a001 at rrz.uni-hamburg.de. Is it doesn?t work try O instead of Zero. Best wishes, Axel Enrica Garzilli schrieb: > Dear Colleagues, can anybody give me the email of Prof. Ashok Aklujkar > (wich I misplaced). Thank you > > -- > Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) > ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 > 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) > Editor-in-Chief, > Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies > http://www.asiatica.org/ > ***************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: axel.michaels.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jul 3 23:42:02 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 16:42:02 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059508.23782.11263496939383535936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jogesh Panda wrote: > > >Steve Farmer wrote: > >....Vasco da Gama landed in Calcutta. > > Correction- Calicut [Calicutt, Kalikat on the Malabar coast], not Calcutta. Thanks! That was a slip-of-pen that I couldn't fix myself due to the Indology two-posts-a-day rule. (We're now in a new official day.) Here are three early responses from my Renaissance colleagues on 16th century knowledge of India - in response to Valerie Roebuck's inquiry: Response #1: > For 1498 and later, the standard work on the subject is comprised of the > relevant volumes of Donald Lach, Asia in the Making of Europe, Univ. of > Chicago Press, 1964 and on in 9 or so volumes, various reprints, including > ones in paperback. Note that the discussion there is divided up between the > 16th century and the 17th century (volumes). More than enough there to keep > anyone interested busy for decades. A truly amazing work of scholarship. Too > bad Lach and his later collaborator stopped with the 17th century. Also see Lach's later monographs, e.g., _Asia in the Eyes of Europe_ (1991). Response #2: > From the arrival of Francis Xavier in Goa (1542) to the end of the 16th > century the Jesuits saw the Indians as dark skinned idolaters and did not > pay any attention to their philosophical traditions. Intellectual > exchanges began much later, in the first decade of the 17th century with > the Jesuit missionary Roberto de'Nobili (1577-1656). He seems to have > been the first Westerner to have understood India's complex caste system > and to learn Sanskrit in order to debate with and convert Brahmins. > > Thus mutual first-hand knowledge of Indian intellectual culture is > really a Baroque rather than a Renaissance phenomenon. See: > > Zupanov, Ines G. Disputed mission : Jesuit experiments and Brahmanical > knowledge in seventeenth-century India / New Delhi ; Oxford : Oxford > University Press, 1999. Zupanov should have copious updated bibliography. The book isn't yet available at the research libraries that I frequent. Response #3: This one comes from a well-known French scholar. It doesn't contain much useful data, but suggests that the question about Indian/European contacts is _terra incognita_ for most 16th-century European historians: > > > Does anyone know what Hindu religious and philosophical ideas would have > > > been accessible in Europe by about 1585? > > Well... hmmm... a tough one indeed. I've just had a look at an anthology in > French of the Lettres ?difiantes et curieuses de Chine par des missionnaires > j?suites 1702-1776 eds Isabelle and Jean-Louis Vissi?re (Paris: > Garnier-Flammarion, 1979), but they only refer to the 18th century. I would > recommend your colleagues to try and look for some evidence about the > "gymnosophistes" so often referred to by Voltaire as typical of Brahmanism. I > assume they were the yogis, but I can't tell much more. There may be some > earlier references to this term in geographies, chorographies or dictionaries > somewhere. It may be one of the possible terms through which evidence can be > reached. > Sorry to be so vague, but the right term to look for is difficult to > imagine at a distance of 3 or 4 centuries. No Renaissance scholar whom I've polled has yet claimed to know anything of the Indian texts mentioned by Ferroli, referred to in Valerie Roebuck's note, that were supposedly sent to Rome c. 1559. Knowing something about ecclesiastical archives in this counter-Reformation period, it wouldn't surprise me if these texts never made it out of Jesuit headquarters. That was common in the case of many missionary reports sent to Europe in this era from Mesoamerica. It is not impossible that these records may be accessible today, however. Possibly some bibliographical guidance might be found in Giorgio Levi Della Vida, _Richerche sulla formazione del pi? antico fondo dei manoscritti orientali della Biblioteca Vaticana_. Vatican City, 1939, or more recent works by this same author. I've found them useful in the past, but I can't recall whether they cover Hindu as well as Islamic manuscripts. So far, it appears that the earliest known discussions of Indian thought in the Renaissance took place in the interviews that Pico della Mirandola held with his Indian informant in Florence in 1494, mentioned in my earlier post. Steve Farmer From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Jul 3 16:14:29 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 17:14:29 +0100 Subject: Advertisement: Message-ID: <161227059493.23782.17474218938755733426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm afraid I cannot provide details, because I don't have them. But the position of Director of the School of Oriental and African Studies is currently under advertisement. SOAS's phone number is +44 20 7637 2388 The current Director, Sir Timothy Lancaster, will shortly be moving to a new post as head of an Oxford college. -- DW From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Mon Jul 3 17:47:41 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 18:47:41 +0100 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059497.23782.1300789849414777869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members Does anyone know what Hindu religious and philosophical ideas would have been accessible in Europe by about 1585? For example what were the 'works of Veaso (Vyaasa)', and other Hindu 'doctors and masters' translated for the Jesuits and brought to Rome c. 1559 (D. Ferroli, 'The Jesuits in Malabar', Bangalore, 1939, Volume 2, page 402)? And what did the Franciscans and Dominicans (active in S. India from the early 1500s) send back to Europe? Thanks for any information-- Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK ========================================================== Sent using AppleOnline.net, The independent Mac dedicated ISP From cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jul 3 23:54:52 2000 From: cln4 at COLUMBIA.EDU (Christian Lee Novetzke) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 18:54:52 -0500 Subject: address In-Reply-To: <39608FD4.D72A8049@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227059483.23782.4127835747239085449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Enrica, aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Christian At 03:06 PM 7/3/00 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Colleagues, can anybody give me the email of Prof. Ashok Aklujkar >(wich I misplaced). Thank you > >-- >Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) >ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 >06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) >Editor-in-Chief, >Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies >http://www.asiatica.org/ >***************************************************************** From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Jul 4 02:02:26 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 19:02:26 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' (& more for V. Roebuck) Message-ID: <161227059511.23782.18117385787248410164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S. Cousins writes, re my argument that there were no extended Harappan texts: > The problem with Steve Farmer's argument here is that it is basically > an argument from silence. But George Thompson writes: > Maybe it would be better to call Steve's position an argument *for* > silence, instead of an argument *from* silence*, since in fact the evidence > seems to be, in a very real sense, silent: it does not, at all, tell us all > of the amazing things that have been claimed for it. What I thought was novel in the argument -- and I claimed this in the original post -- was that it *wasn't* an argument from silence at all. Reports of the first IVC seal were published in 1875, and since then we've found thousands more of the same. That provides a pretty solid empirical foundation for drawing conclusions. The evidence strongly suggests an anomalous continuity in logographic forms that is unlike anything found in any premodern civilization where normal scribal pressures for simplification existed. This is *positive* evidence that the script was not used to create an extensive 'lost literature.' If the literature had existed the scribal pressure would be evident. That is not an 'argument from silence.' The same conclusion comes when we consider the unusually low frequency of occurrences of the majority of IVC signs: Empirical evidence of this was provided in my original post. This is *positive* evidence that the majority of Harappan signs remained logographic throughout its history -- indicating again that normal scribal pressures towards syllabic forms, arising from widespread literary use of the script, were absent. This is again *not* an 'argument from silence' as that phrase is normally used. The consistently elevated number of logograms in every period of Harappan history stands out like a sore thumb when compared with the rapid and radical changes taking place in the same period in Sumerian and Akkadian cuneiform scripts. See here Miguel Civil, "The Sumerian writing system: some problems," Orientalia NS 42: 21-34, whose data are summarized in Parpola 1994: 35. Here we find the normal and expected rapid descent in the number of logographic signs expected in fully literate cultures. Indeed, within a few centuries the number of cuneiform logograms dropped from a high of 60+ percent in Sumerian (which was still apparently much lower than the number of logograms found at *any* point in Harappan script) to a low in Akkadian -- evolving in just a few centuries -- 3.5 percen! This rapid evolution in the scripts occurred in exactly the same period that Harappan script, illustrated in thousands of examples discovered since the 19th century, showed minimal evolution. This is again a *positive* suggestion of the lack of normal scribal pressures in Harappan script. My argument was in no way an 'argument from silence.' The evidence from comparative history is actually strong indeed. Let me stick out my neck -- contra just about everyone -- and predict outright that NO evidence will EVER be found that there were extended Harappan texts. If some show up, we would have to revise just about *everything* we know about the history of writing, gained from long study in Egypt, Greece (linear B, etc.), the Middle East, China, Mesoamerica, and many other places. Lots of positive evidence from comparative history argues against extended texts; not one iota of positive evidence argues for it; the argument in no way depends on an 'argument from silence.' More on India/Europe, in response to Valerie Roebuck, as more data come in: On translations into European languages in the 16th century of Hindu texts, see indeed Donald Lach, _Asia in the Making of Europe_, Vol. I, book 1 (1965: 280), and his sources. E.g., Lach writes: "In 1548 a basketful of Brahmanical books was confiscated on the island of Divar and brought to the College of Goa for a translation, at which point they seem to disappear from the records. Ten years later, however, events took a more auspicious turn. A convert, learned in Brahmanical literature, stole a number of manuscripts from a former friend of his (evidently a Brahman) and brought them to Goa, where he set about rendering some of them into Portuguese. Through these translations the Jesuits learned something about the ten Avatars of Vishnu and the high literature written in Marathi. A considerable part of the Bhagavadgita was translated into Portuguese from the free rendition of Jnaaneshvar. The translation of the Yogaraaj Tilaka, a charming Marathi dialogue between a pupil and his teacher, dealing with eternal questions, let the Christians know something about the beliefs currently being discussed by Indian writers. The Europeans also became acquainted at this time with the Sannyaasis, Yogis, Avadhuutas, and the four life-stages of the Brahmans. Manuscript copies of these translations were sent to Europe, where they are still preserved at Evora and Rome." Lach's source for these claims is found apparently (I mistakenly failed to copy his whole bibliography, so I only have a partial reference) in the massive collection of ecclesiastic documents printed in Josef Wicki, _Documenta Indica_, found in the 17 or so volumes of _Monumenta historica Societatis Iesu (1948-1988)_. I didn't have time to look at the sources, but good source material apparently exists. Happy Latin readings! My regards, Steve Farmer From Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO Mon Jul 3 21:06:07 2000 From: Jon.Skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 00 23:06:07 +0200 Subject: e-mail of Selina Thielemann Message-ID: <161227059506.23782.18086476812562541464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone have the email address of Selina Thielemann? Jon. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Jul 4 02:05:09 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 03:05:09 +0100 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' Message-ID: <161227059510.23782.16121389108903582065.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think there are difficulties in arguing one way or another for the existence of an extensive but lost IV literature, but I wonder if the IV script was used in a similar way to the NW European runes and the Irish ogham script. The majority of these inscriptions are quite short -- mainly ownership tags, short invocations to the gods and the like. I have not heard any theories that the Norse people wrote lengthy texts in the script but they did, of course, have a great bardic tradition of oral poetry and sagas. What they did write was on pieces of bone, wood, metal and stone but there is no evidence, as far as I know, of books per se. In the fullness of time, if and when the IV inscriptions are deciphered, it will probably turn out that the content of the IV written material is much the same kind of thing the Vikings wrote. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 4 12:28:23 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 05:28:23 -0700 Subject: Request for 2 addresses Message-ID: <161227059526.23782.4089184445513787612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <<< Hello all! Could someone kindly indicate the email addresses of PETER CLAUS and MICHAEL LOCKWOOD mails to both addresses as I have them, keep bouncing back... >>> Dear Ulrike, Doesn't pclaus at haywire.csuhayward.edu or pclaus at csuhayward.edu work for Peter? He told me that he is working on Gollas, the shepherds in Andhra, Karnataka, Maharashtra, Northern TN, ... In India now? He does not write in Indology for years now. Must be good to ask him about JallikkaTTu/ManjiviraTTu,... Is F. Gros' translation of the tamil oral epic sung by bards on JallikkaTTu published? I think Dr. Lockwood lives in USA now. Madras Christian college folks will be able to tell, (now Gift Siromanoey is no more). Checking with S. Theodore Bhaskaran, and Dr. John Samuel (ias at xlweb.com) may help. Sorry I can't help more precisely (at the moment). Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 4 13:27:28 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 06:27:28 -0700 Subject: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059531.23782.6685844407632687851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On June 24, 2000, D.N.Jha wrote: >Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI >(Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated Some useful references: a) D. Nelson, BRhatkathA studies: the problem of an Ur-text, JAS, 37, 4, (1978) 663-76. b) J. C. Jain, The importance of VasudevahiNDi, WZKS, 19, (1975) 103-16. Regards, V. Iyer ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 4 13:35:31 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 06:35:31 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059532.23782.7724628841548393528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SF>Angelo Poliziano ("father of philology" to Renaissance scholars, SF>who never heard of Saakalya, Yaaska, Panini, or Patanjali, etc.) SF> ... There is another ancient philologist from a different part of India whom the Renaissance sholars might not have heard of. TolkAppiyar (note that the "o" here is the short Dravidian vowel, not present in Sanskrit; The long o by used in this name gives totally unexpected meanings) whose teacher hailed from ataGkOTu, not too from Calicut. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Tue Jul 4 06:50:36 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 07:50:36 +0100 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' (& more for V. Roebuck) In-Reply-To: <396145AE.8BD665C2@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227059520.23782.11677373074980325368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Steve, I thought your original post very interesting and am quite open to the possibility that it may prove correct. Nevetheless, I do consider that it remains in part 'an argument from silence'. Let us accept that most of the seal signs are probably from some kind of commercial context. That usage might indeed have been fixed over a long period. Writing of longer passages of material would be likely to occur in a different context and probably it would be evidenced only from certain major sites. There are supposed to be a number of large unexcavated sites. I do not know how reliable that claim is, but presume we cannot take it as certain until they actually are excavated. If there prove to be large cities further east, dating from a later period, then it might well prove the case that there was further development of the script and no reason why it could not have been used for new purposes in new ways. >The evidence from comparative history is actually strong indeed. Let >me stick out my neck -- contra just about everyone -- and predict >outright that NO evidence will EVER be found that there were extended >Harappan texts. If some show up, we would have to revise just about >*everything* we know about the history of writing, gained from long >study in Egypt, Greece (linear B, etc.), the Middle East, China, >Mesoamerica, and many other places. Lots of positive evidence from >comparative history argues against extended texts; not one iota of >positive evidence argues for it; the argument in no way depends on an >'argument from silence.' Well, I would have thought that there would always be a lack of 'positive evidence' in the case of an argument from silence :-) But, seriously, consider how radically views about developments in Central America have changed since, say the 1950s, as a result of new archaeological finds (leaving aside script decipherment). So new archaeological finds from a different area or period could easily change the situation. Even for the known area and central period where your argument is obviously stronger, it can only apply to the kind of context which has been excavated. So I think your claim is rather bold. Nothing prevents groups of literati using and developing the script in a different way. If nothing produced by them has been excavated, then we will know nothing of it. That said, I think it is an important point which should be explored further. >More on India/Europe, in response to Valerie Roebuck, as more data >come in: Many thanks for your efforts in response to Valerie Roebuck's query. It is very good to see this kind of useful cross-fertilization between different scholarly listgroups. I am sure that many others of us appreciate this. Lance Cousins -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Tue Jul 4 06:23:26 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 08:23:26 +0200 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts' Message-ID: <161227059518.23782.1014212811239357424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer wrote on 2 juli 2000 23:00 > I'll instead limit myself to correcting some > of the glaring misinformation in just one of Dr. Elst's paragraphs -- > using this as an example of problems found elsewhere in his post. Here we go again: "glaring misinformation"? Until Dr. farmer presents his proof for my glaring intention to misinform, I'll assume that "misinformation" is academese for "mistaken views" if not "views differing from my own". Dr. Wujastyk once pointed out that the AIT debate "is not bringing out the best in people", and the evolution in Dr. Farmer's language from neutral and courteous outsiderspeak to the present prosecutorial mode illustrates the point. > My argument was that there was no scribal > pressure for simplification in IVC because the script had very limited > uses. The seal inscriptions do not give the impression that the script was all that cumbersome, provoking "pressure" on scribes. It was considerably less cumbersome than the hieroglyphic script was even in the 1st millennium BC, after two thousand years of scribal pressure, or than Chinese was before (or even after) Chairman Mao's script reform. > 2. Despite what Dr. Elst claims, Egyptian writing was > anything *but* frozen. Our local library has a manual of hieroglyphic Egyptian which treats the language and the script system as solid units stretching over more than two millennia (unlike the usual treatment of modern and classical Chinese as two distinct languages, or of Brahmi and Devanagari as two distinct scripts). Of course new items (chariot) required new words, but the same certainly applied in Harappan. > In sum, the changes in hieroglyphics over time in Egypt were quite > radical -- exactly, once again, what we don't find in Harappan script. To compare two things, you have to know both. No one has knowledge of Harappan remotely comparable with what is available about Egyptian. Of course claims have been made on the basis of "structural analysis", e.g. that Harappan must be an agglutinative language, but permit me to be highly skeptical of such claims about an unread language. > Elst's last claim -- concerning Chinese -- is even further off the > mark. The argument that 'Chinese was very fixed for over 22 centuries > (3rd BC to 20th AD)' would certainly startle my Sinological > colleagues. I happen to have an MA in Sinology myself, and I stick to my position: the Chinese SCRIPT remained unchanged for 22 centuries, from Qin Shihuang's to Chairman Mao's script reform. The script was used by large numbers of people in producing a vast literature, and it was more cumbersome than hieroglyphics and far more cumbersome than Harappan, yet in spite of the resultant "scribal pressure", it was kept identical to a very high extent. > My friend E. Bruce Brooks has recently posted a few sample lessons in > classical Chinese for those who want to taste ancient Chinese "without requiring of > them the preliminary labor of first mastering a distantly related > language (modern Chinese), in which a few false friends rub elbows in > the dictionary with a host of strangers...." I recommend to Elst and > others on this List Bruce's sample lesson. Thanks for the reference. In case you read Dutch, there is an article on the common misreadings of the Book of Changes on my website, discussing precisely the "false friends" existing between ancient and later forms of Chinese. Thus "li zhen", translated according to medieval convention as "steadfastness is advantageous", originally meant "auspicious oracle", so that modern diviners treating this text as answer to the question "should I move to Australia?" will read it as "stay where you are", while anciently it was read as: "act according to your desire", i.e. just the opposite. These changes of meaning are not a point on which we can compare Chinese with Harappan, since we only know the looks of Harappan but not the meanings. At any rate, Dr. Farmer's main position that the Harappan script was frozen in the logographic stage (which disregards recent Indian scholarship arguing that it was neither unchanging nor logographic) and that this frozenness is incompatible with a large living literature, is contradicted by the example of Chinese. But it remains possible all the same that Harappan developed differently from Chinese and did remain confined to the short seal inscriptions we know; in which case IVC literacy follows the same pattern as Runic and Ogham in Germanic c.q. Celtic cultures (as pointed out by Stephen Hodge), sisters of Vedic culture. This would help in closing one of the gaps between Vedic and Harappan cultures, now jointly appearing as disinclined to writing. K. Elst http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/ From garzilli at SHORE.NET Tue Jul 4 13:39:38 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 09:39:38 -0400 Subject: SV: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059534.23782.9183632678773833399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my paper (sorry for the self reference) "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Connected Problems" part 1, in Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 40, no. 3 (July 1997), pp. 205-243 and "First Greek and Latin Documents on Sahagamana and Some Collected Problems" part 2, in Indo-Iranian Journal, vol. 40, no. 4 (November 1997), pp. 339-365, in long footnotes, I expecially deal with gymnosophistes in Onesicritus and Aristobulos (Alexander's historians) (and with some of Dr. Klaus Karttunen's data). There is still quite a bit to study on the topic. EG -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** Lars Martin Fosse wrote: > > Valerie J Roebuck [SMTP:vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET] skrev 4. juli 2000 > 12:54: > > Was the reference to Gymnosophistae derived from Classical sources, or > does > > it imply some more recent contact (e.g. the 1494 visitor to Pico della > > Mirandola's circle in Florence)? > > > > Thanks to List Members for all the extremely interesting material! > > I believe gymnosophists were already mentioned in connection with Alexander > the Great. Se for instance: Klaus Karttunen (1997) India and the > Hellenistic World. Studia Orientalia 83. Helsinki. (passim, but > particularly page 55ff). > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin Fosse > > Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo > Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 > Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) > Email: lmfosse at online.no From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Jul 4 17:24:07 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 10:24:07 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059541.23782.17975080267303661078.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie Roebuck writes: > Yes, what term *would* a 16th century European have used for a contemporary > Hindu? Giordano Bruno, 'De Magia', c. 1589 (para 1), gives examples of > Magi: "Trimegisti apud Aegyptios, Druidae apud Gallos, Gymnosophistae apud > Indos, Cabalistae apud Hebraeos, Magi apud Persas (qui a Zoroastre), Sophi > apud Graecos, Sapientes apud Latinos". > > Was the reference to Gymnosophistae derived from Classical sources, or does > it imply some more recent contact (e.g. the 1494 visitor to Pico della > Mirandola's circle in Florence)? They got their second-hand information about India from Bk 3 of Herodotus (translated into Latin by Lorenzo Valla in the mid 15th century), Plutarch, Diogenes Laertes, Eusebius -- a host of classical sources. This second-hand knowledge is pretty well studied, e.g., in Jean W. Sedlar, _India and the Greek World: A Study in the Transmission of Culture_ (1980). From mlbd at VSNL.COM Tue Jul 4 04:56:32 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (Motilal Banarsidass) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 10:26:32 +0530 Subject: Commentarial style Message-ID: <161227059515.23782.5680712157530895417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edwin Bryant wrote: > Gary Tubb has some some unpublished material on this, which he may be > hesitant to share with you (for no other reason than his own humility, > since the material is very useful). You can ask him directly > . EB Dear Sir, We are one of the oldest publishing companies from India on Sanskrit, if you could give us some exact details of your un published materials,perhaps we could be of interest in publishing them. Kind Regards, Abhishek Jain Export Department ---------------------------------------- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers (P) Ltd. 41, UA, Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel: (011)-3974826,3918335,3911985,3932747 (011)-5795180, 5793423, 5797356 Fax: (011)-3930689, 5797221 Email:mlbd at vsnl.com , gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: http://www.mlbdbooks.com & http://www.newagebooksindia.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Jul 4 17:43:00 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 10:43:00 -0700 Subject: [calcutta named] Message-ID: <161227059543.23782.4998866024237756882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajesh Kochhar wrote: It is not a coincidence that Calcutta and Calicut sound so similar. The original settlement in Calcutta came up at a village called Sutanati, but the new town was named after Kolkata, which would remind Europe of Calicut already known through Portuguese trade. Note that Kolkata and Kalighat were two distinct localities in the pre-Calcutta days. The new town[Calcutta] was named after Kalikata [or Kolikata], and not Kolkata, the latter being the modern calit Bangla name of the city. Kalikata is mentioned in the rent-roll of of Akbar [the Mughal emperor]and the early sevententh century Bengali mangal kAvya Manasamangal. As about coincidences and non-coincidences, alam atipallavitena. [Vasco did not land in/on Calcutta. That is the fact.] Best. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Tue Jul 4 10:54:16 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 11:54:16 +0100 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism In-Reply-To: <396124CA.49A54EA1@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227059524.23782.6489197267614289700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer writes: >This one comes from a well-known French scholar. >> I would >> recommend your colleagues to try and look for some evidence about the >> "gymnosophistes" so often referred to by Voltaire as typical of >>Brahmanism. I >> assume they were the yogis, but I can't tell much more. There may be some >> earlier references to this term in geographies, chorographies or >>dictionaries >> somewhere. It may be one of the possible terms through which evidence can be >> reached. >> Sorry to be so vague, but the right term to look for is difficult to >> imagine at a distance of 3 or 4 centuries. Yes, what term *would* a 16th century European have used for a contemporary Hindu? Giordano Bruno, 'De Magia', c. 1589 (para 1), gives examples of Magi: "Trimegisti apud Aegyptios, Druidae apud Gallos, Gymnosophistae apud Indos, Cabalistae apud Hebraeos, Magi apud Persas (qui a Zoroastre), Sophi apud Graecos, Sapientes apud Latinos". Was the reference to Gymnosophistae derived from Classical sources, or does it imply some more recent contact (e.g. the 1494 visitor to Pico della Mirandola's circle in Florence)? Thanks to List Members for all the extremely interesting material! Valerie J Roebuck ========================================================== Sent using AppleOnline.net, The independent Mac dedicated ISP From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Tue Jul 4 04:03:39 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 12:03:39 +0800 Subject: Request for 2 addresses Message-ID: <161227059513.23782.11725256548334967155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello all! Could someone kindly indicate the email addresses of PETER CLAUS and MICHAEL LOCKWOOD mails to both addresses as I have them, keep bouncing back... Thanks a lot, Ulrike From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH Tue Jul 4 10:13:24 2000 From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 12:13:24 +0200 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059522.23782.15099421495961886898.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You will find a rich source of information over this topic (with wider bibliographical references) in Lubac Henri de, La rencontre du Bouddhisme et de l'Occident, Paris, Aubier (coll. Th?ologie 24), 1952. Apparently Alexandria was the inter-cultural centre where the brahmins met the greeks, the buddhists encountered the Christians. Greetings. A. Nayak Sarvesham svastirbhavatu May all be prosperous sarvesham santirbhavatu May all be peaceful sarvesham purnambhavatu May all be whole sarvesam mangalambhavatu May all be happy INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN Universit? de Fribourg Avenue de l'Europe 20 CH-1700 Fribourg Tel: 026/ 300 74 38 (Office) 026/ 475 27 91 (Private) Fax; 026/ 300 9768 URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK -----Message d'origine----- De: Valerie J Roebuck [mailto:vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET] Date: lundi, 3. juillet 2000 19:48 ?: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Objet: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Dear list members Does anyone know what Hindu religious and philosophical ideas would have been accessible in Europe by about 1585? For example what were the 'works of Veaso (Vyaasa)', and other Hindu 'doctors and masters' translated for the Jesuits and brought to Rome c. 1559 (D. Ferroli, 'The Jesuits in Malabar', Bangalore, 1939, Volume 2, page 402)? And what did the Franciscans and Dominicans (active in S. India from the early 1500s) send back to Europe? Thanks for any information-- Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK ========================================================== Sent using AppleOnline.net, The independent Mac dedicated ISP From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Jul 4 06:44:27 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 12:14:27 +0530 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059517.23782.14110579861178133873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For part of the answer see T R de Souza and C J Butges (1982) Jesuits in India.(Goa:Xavier Cen f. Hist Res) Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Valerie J Roebuck To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 9:44 AM Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism >Dear list members > >Does anyone know what Hindu religious and philosophical ideas would have >been accessible in Europe by about 1585? For example what were the 'works >of Veaso (Vyaasa)', and other Hindu 'doctors and masters' translated for >the Jesuits and brought to Rome c. 1559 (D. Ferroli, 'The Jesuits in >Malabar', Bangalore, 1939, Volume 2, page 402)? And what did the >Franciscans and Dominicans (active in S. India from the early 1500s) send >back to Europe? > >Thanks for any information-- > >Dr Valerie J Roebuck >Manchester, UK > > > >========================================================== >Sent using AppleOnline.net, The independent Mac dedicated ISP From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jul 4 16:21:08 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 12:21:08 -0400 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? In-Reply-To: <395EC9FA.15132746@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227059538.23782.1969707251850961102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer has done it again... And, again, he has not endeared himself to certain quarters on this list, just as he has done on THE OTHER LIST (writing on spoked-wheel chariots, which make the Rgveda clearly a 2nd mill. BCE phenomenon). Again, we may notice how insulated and isolated some sections of Indology/Indian Studies really are... and how often we extrapolate -- rotting manuscripts -- from what we (think we) know (from modern medieval and ancient India, as the case may be). Comparison certainly opens our eyes, even if certain areas of the world may have unique peculiarities. In the present case, Indus Script/Writing, S. Farmer's comparisons would make the Indus script and civilization unique in any 3rd mill. BCE global perspective... This has, indeed, been argued for certain aspects of its culture (from the point of archaoelogy only!), -- such as 'lack of cult of personality' (The "priest -king" and similar items seem to be very late and Bactria-Margiana-influenced/imports!), the lack of palaces, etc. This kind of uniqueness cannot be maintained for invention the script, as it indicates similar "building blocks' as those that have been used, more or less independently, in the earliest writing of Egypt, Mesopatamia, China (and, as Indus script even seems to have some similarities/connections with proto-Elamite writing). However, as he underlines, the USE and development of the Indus script are quite another matter (see below), and the Indus civilization stands out here, again. Yet, I maintain: in spite of what has been written about the script (see Greg. Possehl's 1996 great index of "failed attempts" of decipherments!), we have to start from scratch, and that includes the most recent attempts, not yet recorded in Possehl. For the simple reason that all previous attempts are based on the wrong premises and materials. We have discussed that at the 2 previous interdisc. Harvard Round Tables on Central and South Asian Ethnogenesis in May 1999 and May 2000, and I draw, subsequently, especially on the contributions and the book by Brian Wells, An Introduction to Indus writing. Second edition. Early Sites Research Society (West). Monograph Series. Number 2. 1999 Wells has studied both the Maya and the Indus scripts in great detail (as well as Near Eastern contemporary developments) and therefore brings in a lot of comparative expertise. Briefly, from my perspective: 1) the number of characters (signs, mostly logographs, it seems) is not close to 400, as most researchers maintain, but rather close to 600 (or even 900 in his latest analysis). This is not based on simple scribal variants but on context: e.g., on the 2-sign groups ('collocations' of 2 graphemes) that one character (including its scribal variants) forms with another character (again including its variants). - [For the fans of an Indus alphabet: what is the sign, occuring just once, of the "duck in pond' ??] 2) the existing sign lists, therefore, are misleading, and 3) the concordances, therefore, are misleading as well. They list, say (hypothetical case) the sign *213 together with *465 and *505 as ONE sign, as scribal variations, while the study of collocations indicates that they are used differently, and are, in fact, 3 separate signs. Nobody can use the concordances without being mislead in the "decipherment": Rta ain't artha or an-Rta, and a-dharma ain't dharma or gharma either. 4) there is some historical development, disregarded so far (5) and there is quite some is regional variation, e.g., between Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, also disregarded so far. In short : On what are all the analyses and 'decipherments', and all those strong opinions based??? Back to square one. Details: ad (5) Regional variation To begin with the last, an always overlooked item: For ex., Harappa uses the simple V-like sign, probably/but unproved meaning "a measure of", in small tablets in combination with obvious numbers: III V, IIII V for example "give me/here are 3/4 measures of.." (No one can tell that this is the correct interpretation, of course!) But this sign is hardly used at Mohenjo Daro (c. 8% only, by trade?). Simple V occurs, barring the most recent excvations at Harappa etc., 194 times, out of which 175 x at Har., 16 x at Mohenjo-daro, and 3x elsewhere. What does that teach? See for example at http://www.harappa.com/indus2/index.html no. 149. Note that this sign is different from the most common one (855x), a sort of [genitive(??)] suffix: = = V i.e. famous vessel with rims. There are other signs with the opposite distribution, e.g. the simple 'man' sign looking like | /|\ | /\ It occurs 36 times at MD, only 7 x at Har., and 4 x elsewhere. Obviously these characters are not uniformly used, to say the least. They could also represent local traditions, different concepts, dialects, or even different words of a different language altogether (if these 2 Indus languages had the same/very similar syntax! Ex.: Chinese char. as used in Korean and Japanese). This regional variation again speaks for S. Farmer's concept of signs as indicating personalities etc. ad (4) Development: So far, we could say very little about the development of the script: early excavations did not always record the exact find spots & levels(!) properly. Recent excavations at Harappa have reached "rock bottom", virgin soil, and have established a sequence for the script from the 4th mill. onwards. We now see that the earliest Indus signs appear already at 3300 BCE and that they are different from the (also used) (simple) potters' marks (such as a cross, + , etc.). Some of the characters look similar, though not exactly the same, as in those of the much later Har. period, 2600-1900. Others disappear (for example, the star * symbol! So much for the fish sign = "star"? and, as maintained recently by some, an alphabet in 3300 BCE?? Another first!) For recently found examples of early Indus writing AND potter's marks, see harappa.com : http://www.harappa.com/indus2/index.html esp. photo 124 sqq. and cf. the later, no. 131 http://news2.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_334000/334517.stm http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/meadow/meadow.htm = BBC, with some mistakes: I have posted R. Meadow's corrections earlier on INDOLOGY... S.Farmer: >1. Harappan script ... shows unusually >little internal development from c. 2600 BCE to c. 1900 BCE... >This is *sharply* at odds with what is known of the >development of logo-syllabic systems in societies with fully developed >literate traditions This observation still holds to a large degree. Note that some signs appear already in 3300 BCE, and have been used throughout. For example http://www.harappa.com/indus2/index.html no.132, from a slightly later phase than 33300 BCE, but still pre-Har.Civ., seems to represent the most common sign, the rimmed vessel, mentioned above. So what does that tell us? Word or suffix? (which it could be here, but it's a fragment). Suppose it was a suffix, then: did the language not change from c. 3000 to 1900 BCE? -- Another First! (NB: Chinese characters did change several times, and not just in their individual shapes. That can be found in any Chin.101 book. Most glaring, the simplicifation of the "radicals", from, as I recall, c. 500-odd to just 214!). The Chinese script of 300 BCE is not that of 300 CE! All of this quite part from the fact that N/S Chinese differ even in the 'collocations' of characters that they use, because their languages differ more than the Romance languegs from each other. -- Same in the Indus ??) S. Farmer: > ... relatively 'frozen' over many >centuries, at least when compared with scripts that rapidly evolved in >Mesopotamia in the same period. This is difficult to imagine in any >fully literate society producing 'copious writings'; it is *not* >difficult to imagine if Harappan symbols had highly restricted uses, >if centralized control was tight, and if there was little scribal >pressure (due to radically restricted use of the writing system) for >script simplification. Indeed, innovations in Harappan script appear >to be as heavily controlled as those in weights and spatial measures NB: the "mytholocial tablets" tell whole stories, IN PICTURES, (for whome? the literate scribes??) but these use the same old characters as the seals and tokens... i.e. (most of) the signs will not refer to stories... Vale, written literature... **** The discussion has so far neglected the actual use of inscribed materials. I underline the present Har. excavator's, R. Meadow's, observation on the life of 'seal's (whatever their use, they were for the most part not used to 'stamp' documents, but were, maybe, more of an identification tag, as S. Farmer thinks: many are found, lost 'on the street', with the bosses on their back torn off by the action of the string they were carried on!). Meadow underlines that most of the inscribed items had a 'life' of their own. At a certain moment they were discarded in rubbish, --whole sets of (the same) tablet/seal sometimes-- which indicates that they were no longer 'valid' (owner had died, changed status, business had faltered -- you go on imagining). No one throws away a royal/business seal in China/Near East... Again, not 'copious writings', but rather use of script for some sort of identifiction/token... (ad 1) number and use of characters This agrees with S.Farmer's point: >4. Moreover, recent evidence >suggests that there were probably more independent symbols around than >Parpola thought..... This is most >easily explained by the ad hoc introduction of logographic symbols for >limited use -- e.g., to describe professions; the majority of these >symbols were clearly *not* syllabic. In any fully literate tradition, >the number of symbols like this should have lessened over time; again, >no evidence of any sort suggests that in Harappan this simplification >took place. Indeed, 4/5 of all Indus signs occur just 10 times in more than 4000 inscriptions. And nearly HALF of them just ONCE! (Note : numbers of signs established on using collocation analysis!) What kind of script is this? Extremely logographic, certainly not a syllabary, and by NO means an alphabet. Show me a language with 400, 500 or 800 sounds ... Rather, we have to agree with S.Farmer: >the largest percentage of >symbols appear only a handful of times. This is not what one would >expect in a fully developed writing system that produced 'copious >writings'; the suggestion is that this isn't the 'tip' of things but >the whole iceberg. This is what we would expect of an extremely >limited script used for ID badges, probably carried under compulsion >by every citizen (cf. Herodotus 1.195 for the Babylonians!); Again, who, and for what literary purpose, would invent a special 'duck in pond' sign? Used once. **** All of the above only underlines how how little we know. In short, we need, as always, a geographical and a temporal study of the script, before speaking about an Indus language and any interpretation or 'decipherment' of the unknown Indus language(s). For the Greater Panjab, however, we have some, in fact, the ONLY available evidence of the local language(s) spoken in c. 1500 BCE, in my EJVS paper http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html ( Sept. 1999): we get some 300-odd loan words in the Rgveda which are neither Dravidian, nor Elamite or Sumerian, nor it seems now, taken from the BMAC language. But Real Indian, resident before Indo-Aryan, Drav., Munda, Burusho etc. make their appearance in the Panjab. Cf. the Nahali, Kusunda languages mentioned in my recent post about South Indian river names (hydronomy of Tamil...). What we need, urgently, to sort out things further is an etymological dictionary of Panjabi and Sindhi. None is in sight. ----------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 12897 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jul 4 12:47:11 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 14:47:11 +0200 Subject: SV: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059527.23782.3216597432631047273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie J Roebuck [SMTP:vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET] skrev 4. juli 2000 12:54: > Was the reference to Gymnosophistae derived from Classical sources, or does > it imply some more recent contact (e.g. the 1494 visitor to Pico della > Mirandola's circle in Florence)? > > Thanks to List Members for all the extremely interesting material! I believe gymnosophists were already mentioned in connection with Alexander the Great. Se for instance: Klaus Karttunen (1997) India and the Hellenistic World. Studia Orientalia 83. Helsinki. (passim, but particularly page 55ff). Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Tue Jul 4 14:22:41 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 16:22:41 +0200 Subject: SV: VasudevahiNDI Message-ID: <161227059536.23782.16695815323223945966.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer [SMTP:venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 4. juli 2000 15:27: > On June 24, 2000, D.N.Jha wrote: > > >Can any one tell me if SanghadAsaGaNi's VasudevahiNDI > >(Jain Prakrit Text) has been translated > > Some useful references: > a) D. Nelson, BRhatkathA studies: the problem of an > Ur-text, JAS, 37, 4, (1978) 663-76. > > b) J. C. Jain, The importance of VasudevahiNDi, > WZKS, 19, (1975) 103-16. > Here is another reference: A.P. Jamkhedkar. VasudevahiNDI: a cultural study. Dehli, 1984. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Tue Jul 4 13:00:48 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 18:30:48 +0530 Subject: calcutta named Message-ID: <161227059529.23782.3759585936885481532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is not a coincidence that Calcutta and Calicut sound so similar. The original settlement in Calcutta came up at a village called Sutanati, but the new town was named after Kolkata, which would remind Europe of Calicut already known through Portuguese trade. Note that Kolkata and Kalighat were two distinct localities in the pre-Calcutta days. >Jogesh Panda wrote: >> >> >Steve Farmer wrote: >> >....Vasco da Gama landed in Calcutta. >> >> Correction- Calicut [Calicutt, Kalikat on the Malabar coast], not Calcutta. > From jkcowart at ADNC.COM Wed Jul 5 02:30:06 2000 From: jkcowart at ADNC.COM (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 19:30:06 -0700 Subject: Rashad, protector of Lakshmi? Message-ID: <161227059547.23782.12460675906032374210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------- Dear List Members, Someone I know was recently shown a figurine purported to depict "Rashad Dav" (or Dan?). He was told that this was a name for a "protector" of Lakshmi. He declined to purchase the object and has inquired of me whether or not such a figure exists in any aspect of Indian mythology. I have never heard of any consort or protector for Lakshmi other than Vishnu -- but "Vishnu has a thousand names" and I may easily have missed this one. Does anyone have any additional information on this? Sincerely, John J. Kingston Cowart, M.S. San Diego, California From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Tue Jul 4 19:13:25 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 04 Jul 00 21:13:25 +0200 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059545.23782.14719307745273875363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Being presently focused on other (though India-related) matters, I will leave the Harappan script discussion at the point where Prof. Witzel with his up-to-date sources has put us back: > Back to square one. All the best, K. Elst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Jul 5 07:49:08 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 00:49:08 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059549.23782.4997175853923608994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to Lance Cousins and Michael Witzel for their recent input. The only thing I'd add to Michael's summary of new data (unknown to me, but supporting the view that I've recently expressed -- that there were no extended but 'lost' Harappan texts) is to give a somewhat different spin to the following: Michael writes: > We now see that the earliest Indus signs appear already at 3300 BCE > and that they are different from the (also used) (simple) potters' > marks (such as a cross, + , etc.). Some of the characters > look similar, though not exactly the same, as in those of the much > later Har. period, 2600-1900. Others disappear > (for example, the star * symbol! > So much for the fish sign = "star"? and, as maintained recently > by some, an alphabet in 3300 BCE?? Another first!) The interesting new finds that are displayed starting at http://www.harappa.com/indus2/index.html (pointed out by Michael) do indeed appear to be early forms of later Harappan logographs. This undermines claims by Parpola and others that the script emerged full-blown around 2600 BCE. But isolated pictograms or logograms found in these early stages aren't relevant to the question of evolutionary pressures on the script in periods when that script *did* exist in full form. In discussing 'scribal pressures for simplification,' e.g. -- the key point in my argument (sharply contrasting Harappan with Sumerian and Akkadian scripts) -- it is important to begin the comparison at a much later period in the mid 3rd millennium, when chains of symbols in Harappan were regularly combined in longer inscriptions. From this point on, the evolutionary contrast in the scripts is dramatic. Lots of interesting new data locked in Michael's post! The regional variations that he notes in logograms are especially relevant to to points already made about the highly restricted uses of the script. 'Vale written literate...' -- indeed! Steve From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Wed Jul 5 12:42:52 2000 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 08:42:52 -0400 Subject: Buddhist rules for text copying In-Reply-To: <3961E91A.81CE36C7@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227059557.23782.14747015421691750257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I am looking for any discussion (primary or secondary) of Buddhist monastic rules concerning the copying of texts in India. Which texts get copied, who copies them, is there priority given to certain texts over others, etc. I am especially interested in Mahasamghika material, although other material would be useful as well. Thanks Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 Ph#: (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 5 15:44:43 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 08:44:43 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059564.23782.10214638190616376229.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Michael Witzel wrote: > In answer to several messages listed under both > threads: > > Obviously, when trying to etymologize S. Indian > river names we have to try > all Dravidian possibilities, -- within the realm of > probability. Most rivers flowing in Tamilnadu do not seem to have clear/convincing Tamil etymologies. Names like vaiyai, koLLiTam are evidently phonetic Tamilization of alien sounds. Trying to look at the semantic content of the constituent syllables of these river names would lead to absurd conclusions. For example there is already a popular etymology for the river name vaiyai or rather its variant vaikai. "Vaikai" literally means "keep your hand" and on this basis an etymology has been developed for which poor Siva had to be pressed into service :-) Some others like keTilam seem phonetically alien. There have been attempts to etymologize some of the rivernames. They fall far short of the requisite level of satisfaction because in no case have the stem and the affixes both been satisfactorily explained. No doubt substrate element has to be posited if one has to account for river names as well as place names recorded in antiquity e.g., in the Periplus viz., Podouke (putukai/pukAr?), Kolchoi (koRkai), Muziris etc It is not as if culturally alien elements in the population have not been noticed from Tamil texts. The eyinar, for example, written up as the people of the strong bow ("kotuvil") and ones who wear leather sandals ("tOlaTi"). All references in the texts show that they are, as a people, different from the people of the texts. By the time of the Tamil texts they seem to have been marginalized to a life in the "pAlai" desert landscape and reduced to banditry. Likewise the "vETar" meaning hunters, perhaps cognate with "vedda" of Srilanka. Or the "Kurumbar" meaning hillmen (?)although some references would have them as Kannada speaking. > Of course, we have to look to non-Skt, non-Drav. > sources as well. There > is, after all, a Nilgiri substrate (Zvelebil 1990). > > > And there are, also, the Vedda in Sri Lanka with > another unknown substrate. Also, some faunal names which sound rather Austro-Asiatic viz., kuraGku (rhesus monkey), vilaGku ("animal"), karA ("crocodile", cf, Skt makara). Of course, the majority school of thought in Tamil studies seems to be that Tamils are autochthonous to Tamilnadu but that goes against some of their own legends e.g., the legend of the vELir chiefs having emigrated from tuvarai of the bronze walls (cf VElir varalARu by M irAkava ayyaGkAr) as well as the spatial distribution of Megalithic culture's findspots viz., from North West to South East. Some of the latter's cultural practices may be found in the Classical Tamil texts. Many find spots are also close to what we know of the then centers of population e.g., Adicchanallur near Korkai etc. Korkai-1 has been dated to ca. 9th century BC. The autochthonous theory also makes somewhat untenable the proposed presence of Dravidian speakers in the IVC. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 5 16:39:59 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 09:39:59 -0700 Subject: SV: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059569.23782.10421525517520086624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I believe gymnosophists were already mentioned in connection with > >Alexander the Great. Isn't there a reference in one of Plato's works, of a meeting between Socrates and an Indian gymnosophist? If I remember right, the Indian gymnosophist is said to have mocked at the Greek philosopher's definition of philosophy, saying the science had no meaning if it didn't relate to the divine. I also remember reading somewhere that the gymnosophist referred to by Plato was most probably a JainA ascetic. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Jul 5 13:54:55 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 09:54:55 -0400 Subject: Request (Re Library of Congress) Message-ID: <161227059559.23782.201136936442332721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> They may contact me or go to the Library's homepage . Reference services and the use of the Library's collections are free. Various forms of photoduplication must be paid for. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From franz_ku at CHEERFUL.COM Wed Jul 5 14:05:03 2000 From: franz_ku at CHEERFUL.COM (Francesco Paolo Villani) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 10:05:03 -0400 Subject: tamil studies Message-ID: <161227059561.23782.17208301595447135647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, does anybody know where I could find, in Europe, The Proceedings of the first Conference-seminar of Tamil Studies and the following Proceedings of the Second Conference-seminar of Tamil Studies. Best Regards Francecso Paolo Villani ----------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from Lycos at http://it.lycosmail.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Wed Jul 5 17:14:53 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 10:14:53 -0700 Subject: SV: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059571.23782.6945096220487228296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran writes: > Isn't there a reference in one of Plato's works, of a meeting between > Socrates and an Indian gymnosophist? If I remember right, the Indian > gymnosophist is said to have mocked at the Greek philosopher's definition of > philosophy, saying the science had no meaning if it didn't relate to the > divine. You have the story right, but it doesn't show up in the Platonic corpus (for 'Plato's works,' read 'works of the 4th-century BCE Platonic school') -- too early. However, stories like this floated around quite a bit in the wake of the Greek conquests in northern India (more Indo-European invaders!) at the end of the 4th century. In extant documents, this *particular* story first shows up in the 4th century CE -- nearly 800 years after the death of 'Socrates'! -- in the Church historian Eusebios (d. 340 CE). See _Evangelicae Praeparationis_ 15.11.3; cf. Sedlar (1980: 14 and 306, n. 33). Eusebius says that he got the story from the (lost) works of Aristokles, who supposedly got it from the (lost) works of Aristoxenos, a 4th century BCE musicologist. The story illustrates that manuscript traditions were no less confused in the premodern West than in India, although chronology isn't *quite* as big of a problem. From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jul 5 08:42:53 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 10:42:53 +0200 Subject: SV: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059551.23782.1996077390271650668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 5. juli 2000 09:49: > Lots of interesting new data locked in Michael's post! The regional > variations that he notes in logograms are especially relevant to > to points already made about the highly restricted uses of the script. > 'Vale written literate...' -- indeed! Strictly speaking, I don't belong in this discussion, since I have no expertise in any of the questions debated. However, I would like to make a remark in the margin: Bernard Sergent suggests the possibility that more than one language was used in the IV culture. Part of the area (in the South) may have spoken an early form of Dravidian, whereas other parts possibly spoke a precursor of Burshashki (according to Sergent) or some other language(s) X. If this is correct, the Harappan signs may have had something in common with the ubiquitous signs we see all over Europe: signs for men's rooms and ladies' rooms, traffic signs etc. As generic signs for concepts they may have enabled or facilitated trade within the IV area, which shared the same material culture without being monolingual. The sheer size of the IV area would seem to support a suggestion of plurilingualism. At the same time, it is not surprising to find some local variants in the semiotic system. That situation also obtains today. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 5 17:44:11 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 10:44:11 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059573.23782.17214019009827198475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Likewise the "vETar" meaning hunters, perhaps cognate >with "vedda" of Srilanka. Even today vETar/vETTuvar exist - a caste in Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Karur, Hosur etc., Among their temples under a tree, several important herostone inscriptions dating to 4-6th centuries are found. Lot more have been discovered after Nagaswamy's book, CeGkam naTukaRkaL, TN state dept. of archaeology. >Or the "Kurumbar" meaning hillmen (?)although some >references would have them as Kannada speaking. Tamil KuRumbar is cognate with Kannada Kurubaru. May be kuRumbar/kurubaru may have something to with kuRiJci, the mountain landscape. Today they are more like Mullai landscape folks - iTaiyar (=intermediate people between kuRiJci and Marutam). Cuntarar got waylaid, He mentions: "koGkil *kuRumpil* karakkut taLiyAy". "vaTuku" seems to have denoted not just Andhra, but Karnataka as well in old Tamil literature. What is the connexion between Gollas & Kurubas? Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jul 5 15:02:26 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 11:02:26 -0400 Subject: Indus script In-Reply-To: <00c701bfe66f$f11f9380$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227059567.23782.7278509809207222782.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> rajesh kochhar: >I would like to make a suggestion.Let us answer the following: >What are the facts pertaining to the interpretation of the Harappan script >on which there is a consensus among researchers?If a fresher were to >enter the field,what can he/she take for guaranteed? > As far as I can see, very little: * the order of writing : in most cases left to wright, established long ago by BB Lal, and based on overlapping characters in inscriptions on vessels. (Sometimes, though, right to left, see e.g. some of the tablets mentioned yesterday: III V or V III or even ^ III ! On the same series of tablets!! Miscopied? or just: doesn't matter as we can read it both ways, e.g., if it meant something like [give me?here is?] 3 vessels(?) [of...] ) * some simple numbers, written as virtually everywhere in early writing as: ' '' ''' '''' etc. * Beyond that? I have difficulty: what is a "sign"/character? how many? what do they represent (words)? Any other proposals for consensus? The rest flows form here: uncertainty in ANY reading, even sign lists, concordances etc., and certainly in ANY "decipherment" (including, of course, the language(s) it is based on, see below). Therefore, the only correct translation of the Dholavira wall board is: lasciate ogni speranza voi qu'entrate! (= motto of our Round Tables; -- for non-Italian speakers: 'leave all hope you who enter!' From Dante: entrance of hell). Most students of the IV script would agree that we have to deal with hundreds of individual characters which makes the script basically logographic (as all early *deciphered* scripts from Egypt to China started out). < less than 100 characters), -- including the most recent, very much touted attempts by SR Rao or Raja Ram. They read the IV script as early Indo-Aryan, very funny early Indo-Aryan though, and with an a-historical setting as well>> Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 5. juli 2000 09:49: > The regional variations .. in logograms are especially relevant to > points already made about the highly restricted uses of the script. L.M.Fosse: >Bernard Sergent suggests the possibility that more >than one language was used in the IV culture. Part of the area (in the >South) may have spoken an early form of Dravidian, whereas other parts >possibly spoke a precursor of Burshashki (according to Sergent) or some >other language(s) X. Precisely the point I made in 1999 (= Panjab, Sindh dialects(?)/languages): Early Sources for South Asian Substrate Languages. Mother Tongue (extra number), October 1999, pp.1-70 or in a an easily accessible, though somewhat shorter version that adds a long, more popular introduction: Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan (Rgvedic, Middle and Late Vedic), EJVS Vol. 5,1, Aug. 1999, 1-67 (http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs) But, my materials are not taken from speculation ("maybe Drav., maybe Burushaski" -- NB Burushaski never seems to have penetrated into the Panjab plains!), rather, as I underlined just yesterday : they are taken from the only *nearly contemporary* evidence we have: the 300-odd loan words in the Rgveda! Otherwise, there are only a few "Meluhhan" words in Mesopotamian sources, some of which may be Bahrain (Dilmun)- based and therefore misleading. > Harappan signs may have had >something in common with the ubiquitous signs we see all over Europe: signs >for men's rooms and ladies' rooms, traffic signs etc. yes, but they also are more complex! > the IV area, >which shared the same material culture without being monolingual. NB. as an OVERLAY on continiung and, after the end of the IVC, re-remerging local cultures! Which, again, underlines the emblematic character of many of the signs that were readable from Panjab to Sindh to Baluchistan to Gujarat, --- like, perhaps the better example, due to [partial] *cultural* domination: many Chinese characters (not ALL!) from Sian/Loyang to Nanking and from old Silla Korea to Heian Japan to N. Vietnam, regardless of language or "dialect" [and to some degree, regardless of word order: SVO :: SOV]. >The sheer size of the IV area would seem to support a suggestion of >plurilingualism. >At the same time, it is not surprising to find some local variants in the >semiotic system. That situation also obtains today. as above.... -------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 4931 bytes Desc: not available URL: From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 5 18:05:55 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 11:05:55 -0700 Subject: Seals in trade Message-ID: <161227059574.23782.300768271251080591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Excavations at Lothal have proved that IVC seals were employed for trade purposes. Sangam poetry in Tamil mentions the use of seals exactly in this manner. I am interested in knowing about mention in ancient literature about seals used on the packages shipped in and out of ports. Any references to seals in Sanskrit used for trade? Thanks. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Wed Jul 5 10:16:31 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 12:16:31 +0200 Subject: Request Message-ID: <161227059552.23782.2299341466048572563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net! A colleague of mine has a question which I would like forward to the Indology group as I believe somebody out there would be able to answer it. Question: How does one approach the Library of Congress? Is it costly? The person asking the question has the email address: bjarne.skov at media.uio.no Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 5 20:28:46 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 13:28:46 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059578.23782.3389727927207819453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is regarding the date of Udhayana, the logician of the NyAya school. I'm interested in knowing the factors which led to the current dating of Udhayana, which places him after Shankara. One curious thing is that Udhayana in his famous work KusumAnjali gives classical arguments in favor of a creator God. The Buddhists, the Jainas, the SAmkhyas and the MImAmsakas have all come out with very strong arguments against a creator God. The early NaiyAyikas and the Vaishesikas who battled them for a long, but don't seem to have overcome the opposition. And if we look at all the VedAnta AchAryas - Shankara, RAmAnuja, Madhva, NimbArka, Vallabha - all these philosophers do not seek to prove the existence of God on logical grounds. They seek refuge in the scripture - the shruti - to prove his existence. So given that the God and "no God" argument had been going on for quite a while and KumArilla Bhatta himself who came before Shankara had argued so forcefully against the concept of a creator God and Shankara himself having given up trying to prove the existence of God on logical grounds which but reflects the theologicians position (that a creator God cannot be logically proven) in the chronology of Indian philosophy, isn't it strange that UdhayAna, if he came after Shankara would try to prove the existence of god on logical grounds? And in the MAdhaviya Shankara Dig Vijaya itself, doesn't Shankara debate with a Udhayana? Why is he not the same as the Udhayana in question? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed Jul 5 19:16:48 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 15:16:48 -0400 Subject: IJTS 4, Special Issue Message-ID: <161227059576.23782.13839570741116388691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a couple of days the International Journal of Tantric Studies, Special Issue, Vol. 4, including the paper by Dr. John Roberth Gardner "Magically Storming the Gates of Buddhahood: Extensible Text Technology (XML/XSLT) as a Simulacrum for Research", will no longer be freely accessible. Please check out http://www.asiatica.org/publications/ijts/default.asp The paper is on the unique new research possibilities provided to scholars by XML (Extensible Markup Language). The paper introduces the reader to XML - which is very much like HTML - and then demonstrates the theory and application of ideas like viharaNam and vidhAna within electronic texts. -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) ex-Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-075-585 3055 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Wed Jul 5 14:28:10 2000 From: george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (George Baumann) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 16:28:10 +0200 Subject: tamil studies In-Reply-To: <00070510050371.12638@webb1.iname.net> Message-ID: <161227059562.23782.3450173031654721757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Villani, The proceedings of the First and Second international conference seminar of Tamil studies are available in the Special Area Collection 'Suedasien' of the Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen. The call numbers are: 1) 2 vols. = 8 A 6270 2) 3 vols. = 13 A 7050 They can be ordered through the regular inter-library loan service (slow!) or check our home page and use the electronic ordering service (fee charged!). Greetings, George Baumann > Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:05:03 -0400 > Reply-to: Indology > From: Francesco Paolo Villani > Subject: tamil studies > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Dear List members, > > does anybody know where I could find, in Europe, The Proceedings of the first Conference-seminar of Tamil Studies and the following Proceedings of the Second Conference-seminar of Tamil Studies. > > Best Regards > > Francecso Paolo Villani > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Get free personalized email from Lycos at http://it.lycosmail.com > ___________________________________________________________ Dr. G. Baumann Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: +7071-2972587 Fax: +7071-293123 ___________________________________________________________ From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jul 5 10:58:19 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 16:28:19 +0530 Subject: script summary Message-ID: <161227059554.23782.7426273247962801950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to make a suggestion.Let us answer the following: What are the facts pertaining to the interpretation of the Harappan script on which there is a consensus among researchers?If a fresher were to enter the field,what can he/she take for guaranteed? rajesh kochhar ********************************** Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 5 23:29:37 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 16:29:37 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059581.23782.4192634688379488390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- "N. Ganesan" wrote: > Tamil KuRumbar is cognate with Kannada Kurubaru. > May be kuRumbar/kurubaru may have something to with > kuRiJci, the mountain landscape. Today they are > more like Mullai landscape folks - iTaiyar > (=intermediate > people between kuRiJci and Marutam). iTaiyar can perhaps be thought of as a hypercorrect form of eTaiyar where eTai comes from the word for goat (DED 4229 Ta. yATu, Te EDe). Ta. yATu could however may underlie Skt. yAdava (Southworth). Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 6 01:58:19 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 18:58:19 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059591.23782.11255545286504026545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner wrote: >nanda chandran wrote: > > > So given that the God and "no God" argument had been going on for quite >a > > while and KumArilla Bhatta himself who came before Shankara had argued >so > > forcefully against the concept of a creator God and Shankara himself >having > > given up trying to prove the existence of God on logical grounds which >but > > reflects the theologicians position (that a creator God cannot be >logically > > proven) in the chronology of Indian philosophy, isn't it strange that > > UdhayAna, if he came after Shankara would try to prove the existence of >god > > on logical grounds? > >First: I am not familiar with the "Udhayana" referred to by SaGkara, but >are you >sure of the spelling? The later NyAya-VaiZeSika philosopher's name is >correctly >transliterated as "Udayana". :-) Wasn't there a recent thread about this sort of transliteration, involving the use of h's in words? The only reference connecting Sankara and Udayana is in a hagiographic text, which provides nothing more than the name, viz. Udayana. There is no indication that the reference is to the naiyyAyika author of kiraNAvalI, nyAyakusumAnjali and Atmatattvaviveka. The hagiography can safely be ignored, when dating these two personalities relatively. > >Second: Even if it were admitted to be strange that Udayana should continue >a >debate that SaGkara decided not to continue - which I personally would not >consider strange at all - To this, I would add the following. It is not as if post-Sankaran naiyyAyikas simply accepted the mImAMsA/vedAnta arguments against the notion that God is the author of scripture. The nyAya school rejects the theory that knowledge is intrinsically valid. It also does not accept an idea of the eternality of sound. Not only Udayana (vide nyAyakusumAnjali), many other post-Sankaran naiyyAyikas refute this idea. Given the nyAya theory that all knowledge derives its validity from extrinsic sources, irrespective of when he may have lived, Udayana still had to argue for inferring the existence of a Creator-God (re: universe), who is also supposed to be the Author-God (re: Vedas). For the naiyyAyika, the Vedas are valid because they are authored by a trustworthy, omniscient being. It is invalid to argue that Udayana cannot be post-Sankara, simply because he provides these kinds of arguments. Finally, in spite of his being a naiyyAyika, and in spite of arguing that the universe is real, Udayana's affinity for advaita vedAnta (or soft corner, perhaps, for advaita vedAntins) is something that has been widely noticed and commented upon. See for example, the recent paper by Daya Krishna (Is Udayana a Pracchanna Advaitin?) and response to this by N. S. Dravid, in Journal of the Indian Council of Philosophical Research, 1996 and 1997. Madhusudana Sarasvati cites Udayana approvingly, in his advaitasiddhi. >?From Atmatattvaviveka, it is clear that Udayana came after Vacaspati Misra and some post-Sankaran Buddhists like Ratnakirti. Many of his arguments against the Buddhists end with statements that they should accept advaita vedAnta positions. In Udayana's opinion, the advaitin theory of the illusoriness/unreality of the world arises simply because the seeker of liberation *ignores* the world. And he provides a hierarchical listing of darSanas, with the vedAnta of Bhaskara occupying a low level, and the advaita school occupying a level just below nyAya, which is at the top. All of which suggests that he came after Sankara, not before. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Jul 6 00:44:04 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 20:44:04 -0400 Subject: Indus script Message-ID: <161227059587.23782.9550694859778679493.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks again to Michael Witzel for taking the time to introduce all of this new and important material to the list's attention. I am still struggling to absorb all of the new information. But since there is a movement to go back to the basics, perhaps I may be permitted to continue with a few more naive questions. In Herodotus there are two anecdotes about the Scythians which may be of interest. In Bk 4.98 there is reference to the use of knots as a mnemonic device to count down the days before some significant event. Second, at Bk 4.130f., there is ref. to a message sent to Darius by the Scythians which consisted of a bird, a mouse, a frog, and five arrows. Well, Darius had to consult with his advisors about the meaning of this, and they came to the conclusion; "Unless you Persians turn into birds and fly up in the air, or into mice and burrow underground, or into frogs and jump into the lakes, you will never get home again, but stay here in this country only to be shot by the Scythian arrows." Now this is a message in which each unit consists of a real-world object. Each unit has a specific value that is much larger than the value of a syllable or individual word. Each unit consists of a complete narrative sequence in itself. Of course, the first anecdote invites comparison with the quipu of previous posts. The second invites comparison with mnemonic sign systems that one encounters frequently in ethnographic accounts of preliterate cultures. I think that it is possible that the IVC sign system, which consists of sequences of no longer than eight signs, may be no more than the transposition of such mnemonic systems into graphic form. If the IVC sign were syllabic, then the longest message attested in that system would be no longer than one line of a Vedic gAyatrI stanza [e.g., hotAraM ratnadhAtamam]. It is striking how very little information would be conveyed by such a sequence. For this reason, I consider the likelihood of the IVC sign being syllabic as very unlikely. If the IVC sign were logographic, the the longest message attested in that system would be no longer than one full gAyatrI stanza [RV 1.1.1, for example consists of exactly eight words]. I'm not prepared to call a sequence of this length good evidence for an IVC 'literature'. And it raises douts in my mind that IVC was logograhic. But if the IVC sign were a mnemonic sign [rather like a Sanskrit sUtra which requires elaborate commentary to be intelligible], then it is reasonable to compare a sequence of eight such signs to a complete hymn of the RV. RV 1.1, for example, consists of nine gAyatrI stanzas. A sequence of eight such mnemonic signs in IVC would at least offer us something comparablee to a complete message in the RV. So if what we encounter in the longest of IVC sign sequences is a complete message in itself, it may well be that the most likely interpretation of that sequence is that it consists of units that are larger than the individual word. In fact it may well be most likely that the individual sign is a Proppian function, or a Greimasian actant, i.e., a complete narrative unit in itself. Now, I know that the handbooks say that if a script consists of something like 250 to 500 distinct signs it is probably a mixture of a logographic and a syllabic sign system. As Michael Witzel observes, the high number of signs in IVC suggests that the system is basically logographic. But I wonder whether the combination of [1] a large number of distinct signs and [2] the very short length of the typical IVC sign sequence might best lead to the conclusion that what we have in IVC is a mnemonic graphic system. I hope that my naive questions are of use to the list in general if not to the specialists. Best, George Thompson From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Jul 6 01:17:30 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 21:17:30 -0400 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059589.23782.5397918860453386982.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/5/00 8:24:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > Of course, though much later, there was the Neo-Platonist interest in > things Eastern. Plotinus accompanied the ill-fated expedition of the > emperor Gordian into Persia with the specific intention of making > contact with Indian philosophers. Though he never made it to India, > some see clear signs of Indian thought in his later works though the > similarities are more probably coincidental. I can't find the > reference but I recollect there was an account of some "gymnosophist" > visiting the emperor who expounded his philosophy and then immolated > himself in fire to prove his detachment. I am not sure however > whether this was during Gordian's trip or earlier -- perhaps somebody > else might know. This is Calanus, who was brought back to Greece by Alexander and made a big impression of the Greeks [accounts in Onesicritus, Arrianus, Strabo -- going back to Megasthenes, if I recall]. So the knowledge of gymnosophistai is much older than Plotinus. See the book of Klaus Karttunen already cited for details. Best, George Thompson From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Jul 6 04:41:04 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 21:41:04 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059593.23782.2859720277353281860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> M. Witzel wrote: > The Chinese script of 300 BCE is not that of 300 CE! Stephen Hodge responded: > But it is !! For example, I have a facsimile text of the Dao-de-jing > from the (slightly later) 160 BCE Mawangdui tombs which I can read > just as well as a medieval printing of the text. By 300 BCE the > writing of Chinese had in fact largely stabilized but each era had its > preferred calligraphic style but this again does not intrinsically > affect the structure or meaning of the majority of characters -- no > more than writing roman script in "gothic" black letter or italic > does. I think that this is based on a misconception, Stephen. In defense of what Michael has said, here is what Robert G. Henricks (1989: xv) says in his introduction to his translation of the Laozi (= Dao-de-jing) from the two extant Mawangdui manuscripts (tomb dated to c. 168 BCE): In terms of differences in style, the characters in Text A are written in 'small seal' form, an old style of writing that was to be abandoned in the Han; the characters in Text B by way of contrast, are written in the more modern "clerical" script. This is one indication that Text A was copied before Text B. This indicates rapid changes in the script -- and not just calligraphical variations -- in the relatively short period between the time that the two Mawangdui versions of the Laozi were copied. Indeed, Henricks uses those differences to give relative dates to the texts! Conceivably, the facimile that Stephen Hodge saw was of the more "modern" text B. It is quite dissimilar from Text A in script. Other texts found in the Mawangdui tombs too show evidence of rapid evolution in the form of the script. Edward Shaughnessy (1997: 15-16), in his introduction to his commentary on the Yijing (Classic of Changes) and its commentaries found at Mawangdui writes: As do the manuscript copies of the Laozi, comparison with the received texts of the Zhouyi [= Yijing] and of the Appended Statements (Xici) [= commentaries on the Changes Classic] reveals that the manuscript contains many phonetic loan characters and forms of characters more or less unorthodox; some of these variora may signal significant syntactic differences. Even more *radical* differences in script are found in the recent versions of the Laozi found in the Guodian tombs -- dating from c. 300 BCE -- in which the script is even further removed from those found in the Han period (and, of course, further still from modern Chinese). Henricks promises a translation and commentary on these Guodian versions of the work later this year (a big event in Sinology)! You will find very similar judgments about the evolution of old Chinese script by William G. Boltz in the new _Cambridge History of Ancient China: From the Beginnings to 221 BC_ (1999: 106-23). Boltz strongly emphasizes clear stages in the evolution of the script, affirming that all indications are that Chinese script "developed according to the same pattern that characterized the appearance and early development" of writing systems in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Mesoamerica. (Note that this same pattern is NOT seen, as I emphasized at the beginning of this thread, and as M. Witzel has likewise affirmed, in Harappan.) Boltz also writes of "the group of manuscripts written on silk from the tombs at Mawandui," confirming the views cited above from Henricks and Shaughnessy. Specifically, Boltz writes: Because these manuscripts were written largely prior to, and independent of, efforts to standardize the writing system emanating from the Qin capital in the north [later center of the Qin empire] they show literally hundreds of examples of paronomastic uses of characters that would be viewed as nonstandard and eccentric, or even wrong relative to what came later to be extablished as the precepts and conventions for a standard orthography. ("Paronomastic" = what Indologists generally refer to as "rebus" use of symbols.) Boltz goes on to discuss several "baffling" uses of Chinese characters found in the text. Finally please note -- since Witzel's response was to claims by another poster (*not* Stephen Hodge) that Chinese hadn't changed from c. 300 BCE to the present (!) -- that the 15 texts found in the tombs at Guodian in 1994 from around that precise time -- c. 300 BCE -- are all transcribed into modern Chinese before publication. The reason is that the majority of specialists in ancient Chinese otherwise wouldn't be able to read them. M. Witzel is right: All specialists agree that before the Han dynasty ancient Chinese was anything *but* "fixed"! > The Chinese script of 300 BCE is not that of 300 CE! My best, Steve Farmer From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Jul 5 21:11:21 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (Birgit Kellner) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 00 23:11:21 +0200 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059579.23782.13567945196350853720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > So given that the God and "no God" argument had been going on for quite a > while and KumArilla Bhatta himself who came before Shankara had argued so > forcefully against the concept of a creator God and Shankara himself having > given up trying to prove the existence of God on logical grounds which but > reflects the theologicians position (that a creator God cannot be logically > proven) in the chronology of Indian philosophy, isn't it strange that > UdhayAna, if he came after Shankara would try to prove the existence of god > on logical grounds? First: I am not familiar with the "Udhayana" referred to by SaGkara, but are you sure of the spelling? The later NyAya-VaiZeSika philosopher's name is correctly transliterated as "Udayana". Second: Even if it were admitted to be strange that Udayana should continue a debate that SaGkara decided not to continue - which I personally would not consider strange at all -, such "atmospheric" considerations are not a reliable basis for establishing the relative chronology of Indian philosophers, nor do they constitute sufficient evidence to call into question datings that are otherwise firmly established. What matters in this context are factors such as the mention of dates for the completion of works in manuscript colophones, the express mention of an author's or his work's (works') name in other works, the mention of ideas which can be shown to be peculiar to the philosopher in question, and so on. Based on this type of criteria, Udayana's dates were established for somewhere in between the 2nd half of the 10th century and the 1st of the 11th (with certain margins of variation). I'm not at my office at the moment, so I can't go into further detail, but I hope this initial bit of information proves nevertheless useful. Best, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jul 5 23:36:27 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 00:36:27 +0100 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059583.23782.11141720358821376403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > You have the story right, but it doesn't show up in the Platonic > corpus (for 'Plato's works,' read 'works of the 4th-century BCE > Platonic school') -- too early. Of course, though much later, there was the Neo-Platonist interest in things Eastern. Plotinus accompanied the ill-fated expedition of the emperor Gordian into Persia with the specific intention of making contact with Indian philosophers. Though he never made it to India, some see clear signs of Indian thought in his later works though the similarities are more probably coincidental. I can't find the reference but I recollect there was an account of some "gymnosophist" visiting the emperor who expounded his philosophy and then immolated himself in fire to prove his detachment. I am not sure however whether this was during Gordian's trip or earlier -- perhaps somebody else might know. Going the other way, there are said to be striking parallels between the scepticism of the Pyrrhonists (Sextus Empiricus & co) and the Madhyamikas in India -- the flow of ideas thought to have been from west to east in this case. Given the huge volume of Roman period trade across to south India from the Mediterrranean cultural sphere, this may not be too far fetched -- quite conjectural but interesting all the same. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Jul 6 00:32:30 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 01:32:30 +0100 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059585.23782.15954567137882053584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> DrWitzel wrote: (NB: Chinese characters did change several times, and not just in their individual shapes. That can be found in any Chin.101 book. Most glaring, the simplicifation of the "radicals", from, as I recall, c. 500-odd to just 214!). ********** How so ? Though not a Sinologist per se, I can read Chinese quite well and do not find this is the case. The "simplification" of the radicals was purely for classificatory purposes. In fact, the Kang-xi 214 list has been further reduced by modern Cinese lexicographers but this does in no way affect the structure or meaning of the characters. > The Chinese script of 300 BCE is not that of 300 CE! ******** But it is !! For example, I have a facsimile text of the Dao-de-jing from the (slightly later) 160 BCE Mawangdui tombs which I can read just as well as a medieval printing of the text. By 300 BCE the writing of Chinese had in fact largely stabilized but each era had its preferred calligraphic style but this again does not intrinsically affect the structure or meaning of the majority of characters -- no more than writing roman script in "gothic" black letter or italic does. There was no wholesale changing and replacement of characters -- though of course some dropped out of use and quite a few new ones came in use additionally but not the bulk of the script. On the other hand, it is true that the language / grammar does change. Classical Zhou period Chinese is very different to much of late Han /Jin period stuff onwards but the writing remains the same. One interesting feature is the shift to using many binomes largely in order to cope with the linguistic challenges that arose when the Chinese attempted to translate Indic Buddhist texts. There is also a corresponding increase in colloqialisms but even today some scholars can write in pure classical style which is fairly widely understood by reasonably educated people. > All of this quite part from the fact that N/S Chinese differ even in the 'collocations' of characters that they use, because their languages differ more than the Romance languegs from each other. -- Same in the Indus. ********* For most of written Chinese, the N / S divide is not relevent -- there has always been a official / standard form of written Chinese that ignores regional dialects and grammar -- that's why standard Chinese used to be called Mandarin Chinese. In fact it is often not possible even to express regional dialects in written Chinese -- dialectical lexicography has only really begun in recent years using other forms of representation (IPA etc). One final point. With so-called mono-syllabic languages like Chinese, there is only a limited number of word shapes that can be generated. Thus with Chinese, the permutations result in around 420 odd possible "words" in modern Chinese that are then amplified by the use of tones (4 in Putonghua standard Chinese) thus yielding a theoretical total of just 1600 words !! The result is thousands of homonyms -- hence the use of binomes. I am not suggesting that the language of the IV script is related to Chinese but if the script worked on a syllabic basis as with Chinese words you might expect around 400 -- 600 signs. One finds a similar situation with Tibetan which is also basically a "mono-syllabic" language -- a fairly limited number of word-shapes and lots of homonyns. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 6 11:48:25 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 04:48:25 -0700 Subject: script summary Message-ID: <161227059602.23782.4528335694356139179.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Parpola's two photographic volumes, >Corpus of Indus seals and inscriptions / edited by Jagat Pati Joshi and >Asko Parpola ; with the assistance of Erja Lahdenpera and Virpi >Hameen-Anttila >Helsinki : Suomalainen tiedeakatemia, 1987- >are absolutely essential for anyone thinking seriously about the IV script. Isn't the third volume already published? Also: a) Koshkenniemi, Kimmo and Parpola, Asko, 1979. Corpus of texts in the Indus script. Helsinki b)[-do-], 1980, Documentation and duplicates of the texts in the Indus script. Helsinki c) [-do-], 1982, A concordance to the texts in the Indus script, Helsinki. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 6 13:09:21 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 06:09:21 -0700 Subject: Maldives substratum Message-ID: <161227059607.23782.8743566856646207939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. C. Maloney writes that he did not know about the substratum in the Maldives when he wrote his paper, The beginnings of Civilization in South India, J. Asian studies, 1970, p. 603- Regards, N. Ganesan ------------------------------------------------------ Where Did the Maldives People Come From? By Clarence Maloney Full article at: http://iias.leidenuniv.nl/iiasn/iiasn5/insouasi/maloney.html [...] "The Maldives people are a clear ethnic category, having a unique language derived from Sinhala but grafted on to an earlier Tamil base, and they have a homogeneous cultural tradition. In early medieval times they followed the Sri Lanka type of Buddhism, but in 1153 were converted to Islam by order of their ruler." [...] "What was not known previous to my research in the early 1970s, is that there is a strong underlying layer of Tamil population and culture. So far, most Divehis have not shown themselves interested in accepting this finding, as it does not suit their sense of their prestigious origins. Be that as it may, the evidence is overwhelming. There is a clear Tamil substratum in the language, which also appears in place names, kin terms, poetry, dance, and religious beliefs. This is actually Tamil-Malayalam, as up to about the 10th century when the Malayalam language acquired a separate identity, what is now Kerala was considered to be part of the Tamil area. There are numerous references in the Tamil Sangam (1-3 century) and medieval literature to kings of Kerala having ships, conducting invasions by sea, and ruling the northern part of Sri Lanka. People of Kerala settled the Lakshadvip Islands, and evidently viewed the Maldives as an extension of them. There is a Maldivian epic about Koimala, who is said to have come from India, bringing with him his royal lineage, landed on a northern atol, and then made Male his capital. The name koi is from Malayalam koya, son of the prince, which is also the name of a high caste group in the Lakshadvip Islands. Koimala has now become a generalized eponymous ancestor of the pre-Muslim Divehis." [...] ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jul 6 12:12:24 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 08:12:24 -0400 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? In-Reply-To: <008801bfe6e1$f7ddc6c0$b029893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227059605.23782.11633889455091616790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the question dealing with change in Chinese characters has just been dealt with by Steve Farmer, I cut my post and leave in only additional points: As so often on the list, the following deals with a side issue (Chin. characters) of a side issue (similarity with IV script), as reaction to someone else's jottings (K.Elst), and with the direction of discussion having been changed several times; further, it is discussed by two self-avowed non-specialists (S.Hodge,me), and all of it is outside the field of Indology: pretty useless, I'd say. So, stop reading here. (Except for the last section). ..... But, to return to the point of departure, the Indus Civ.: >For most of written Chinese, the N / S divide is not relevent -- there >has always been a official / standard form of written Chinese that >ignores regional dialects and grammar -- Not the point: China was, by and large (not always!), centralized, and had official exams; But, was *this* the case in the Indus? Archaeologists think of a half-dozen 'realms' within the IV area. The diversity in some characters shows just the opposite of centralization (cf. below) > In fact it is often not possible >even to express regional dialects in written Chinese -- I wrote about collocations. And rhyme dictionaries even tell the tale of differing "pronunciations" i.e. words. (NOT the point here)... Plus different and many(!) new characters in Vietnam, and also in Korea, Japan... Which may just reflect the state of things in the Indus Civ. with at least 2 major dialects/languages used (see my last post and EJVS 1999). ********** >there is only a limited number of word shapes ... >... around 420 odd possible "words" in modern Chinese that are then >amplified by the >use of tones (4 in Putonghua) ... >theoretical total of just 1600 words !! Yes, in modern N. Chinese (Beijing). And that's an extreme case, with just CV or CV+Nasal shapes of syllables. Even modern S. Chinese and earlier N. Chinese have more possibilities. Add, for ex. southern -p, -t, -k (as in Chang Kai Chek) and you get quite a few more than 420... >if the [IV] script >worked on a syllabic basis as with Chinese words you might expect >around 400 -- 600 signs. Based on what type of language ?? One that does NOT agree with the 300-odd Panjab loan words in the Rgveda which are much more complex (certainly not monosyllabic) and whose syllable shapes would require many more signs/characters that the theoretical 400-600 mentioned. e.g. RV loans : udumbala, ulUkhala, emuSa, opaza, kakardu, kaGkata, katpaya, kaparda, etc., etc., i.e. with the shape: CV + m, n, t, r for the more complicated syllable shapes, just in this limited sample. And with a larger number of C as well as V (at least short/long a i u e o plus schwa), and probably a few more that are not properly represented by Rgvedic pronunciation... It does not fly. Starting from the RV representation (which may be not very good, see Kuiper 1991) we would need: c. 30 x C- (plus several CC!) c. 6 or 12 x V (leaving aside accent, not relevant; nasalization?) many -C such as -n, -m, -r, -t, ..... which results in many hundreds of possibilities... Probably, but this is speculation, the script would have used other ways to get around such high numbers of syllable signs, say C(30) + V(12) + [r], [n], ... thus, |Ca|, |Ci|, |Cu|...., |Car|, |Cir|, ... |Can|, ... etc. etc., And, to remain practical, it would have to use |C+ V + Ca... + Ca...| for [CVCC] and |CaCaV...|for [CCV...], which still requires a high number of characters. But all of this is pure speculation which must be based on actual examples. Logographs are much more likely, e.g.: duck in pond, 1x at Mohenjo-Daro; goose with head turning back, 1x at Lothal; bird eating, head down, 1x at MD; man standing on top of two 'spoked wheels', 1x at Lothal : now that's a First which "proves chariots at Lothal" for the OIT isn't it?, or the complex sign, Chinese style: two superimposed 'forks/brooms' on top of a spoked wheel, all inside a rimmed vessel, 1x at MD., etc. etc. As I said, about 1/2 of the characters occur just once. Are we at square one or square two? ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 4747 bytes Desc: not available URL: From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 6 15:36:00 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 08:36:00 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059611.23782.18351078518680285155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Are we at square one or square two? The proponents of Dravidian authorship of the ivc prefer two circles - intersecting bangles representing the god, Muruku. I think there is a chapter on Muruku in Parpola. Following on a study from CT sources by P.L.Samy, I. Mahadevan has written a long paper that the crouched deity with the ribs is Muruku. This ribbed demon could be the one causing disease in children (MBh.). Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 6 16:13:45 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 09:13:45 -0700 Subject: Shendge's book Message-ID: <161227059612.23782.13156703369415471087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. S. Hodge wrote a while ago (in a different thread, Re: bones and flesh): > Have you also seen Malati Shendge's recent book "The Language > of the Harrapans". She has the interesting theory that there > was also a strong Akkadian influence on this language which was > taken over into the language of the Rg Veda. In particular she > draws attention to the names of the various Asuras which she links > to Akkadian names. She also believes that Asura is linked via > Asur to the Assyrians. Probably very contentious but still worth a look. I read her earlier book on the non-Aryans in the RV, "Civilized Demons". Her thesis is that IVC people are related to the Parsis, Zorastrians, Assyrians ("Asuras", acc. to Malti). Is her second book, The Language, extending her PhD/I book backwards chronologically? But recent excavations at Mehrgarh (Jarrige), and several digs by Kenoyer team, etc., have thrown out the "diffusionary model" for the IVC, or still Malti's Assyrian-IVC hypothesis possible? Thanks, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jul 6 13:29:40 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 09:29:40 -0400 Subject: European contacts with Hinduism In-Reply-To: <01BFE734.6C169C40.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227059609.23782.10122879684468371465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One person that always is forgotten is the early Russian trader Nikitin. It is a long time that I looked at him, so please read yourself, and it also is unlikely that he had a great impact on the rest of Europe, but here he is: India in the fifteenth century : being a collection of narratives of voyages to India in the century preceding the Portuguese discovery of the Cape of Good Hope from Latin, Persian, Russian, and Italian sourcess / edited, with an introduction [by] R.H. Major. New Delhi : Asian Educational Service, 1992. Sabsoub, Jean-Pierre. Die Reise des Kaufmanns Nikitin von der Rus' nach Indien, 1466-1472 : ein Beitrag zur Begegnung mit dem Anderen / Jean -Pierre Sabsoub. Bonn : Holos, 1988. Nikitin, Afanasii Nikitich, Khozhenie za tri moria Afanasiia Nikitina / izdanie podgotovili IA.S. Lur'e i L.S. Semenov. Leningrad : Izd-vo "Nauka," Leningradskoe otd-nie, 1986. Le voyage au-dela des trois mers d'Afanasij Nikitin : (1466 -1472) / introd., traduction du vieux-russe et notes par Jean -Yves Le Guillou. Quebec, Canada : Comeditex, 1978. plus a dozen more, older books. Also a detailed Slavistic/Indian dissertation, by Inge Wezler, diss. Univ. Tuebingen c. 1965/70. (perhaps George Bauman can help here, please?) ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 6 16:51:43 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 09:51:43 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059616.23782.3127444851786038429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer writes : >You have the story right, but it doesn't show up in the Platonic >corpus (for 'Plato's works,' read 'works of the 4th-century BCE >Platonic school') Strange. The first time I heard it somebody said it was from Plato's Timaeus. Either my source was wrong or I remembered wrong. >In extant documents, this *particular* story first shows up in the 4th >century CE -- nearly 800 years after the death of 'Socrates'! That itself need not invalidate the story. Even the Buddhist canon that we have now was put down in writing centuries after the historic Buddha. Still we accept that as his teachings. We also have the Buddhist text, "Milindapanha", which is basically a debate between the Greek king Menander (Indianized to Milinda) and the Buddhist monk NAgAsena. Bertrand Russell, in his, "History of Western Philosophy", makes a dubious claim that this text has a Greek original! Is there such a text? Doesn't seem too likely - given the stress on "anatta" - "no soul" in the text which is uniquely Buddhist. Also Parmenides, who is supposed to have been a soldier in the Grecian army which invaded India, seems to teach something pretty similar to the MAdhyamaka Buddhist chatushkoti - the four fold negation. Plus the stories regarding Alexander's encounters with yogis and logicians in India. >-- in the Church historian Eusebios (d. 340 CE). See _Evangelicae >Praeparationis_ 15.11.3; cf. Sedlar (1980: 14 and 306, n. 33). Fascinating. So was the Church trying to counter philosophical scepticism with support from India - that religion itself is the end of philosophy? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Jul 6 08:23:56 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 10:23:56 +0200 Subject: European contacts with Hinduism/Harappan signs Message-ID: <161227059597.23782.9256730636502373709.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge [SMTP:s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK] skrev 6. juli > Going the other way, there are said to be striking parallels between > the scepticism of the Pyrrhonists (Sextus Empiricus & co) and the > Madhyamikas in India -- the flow of ideas thought to have been from > west to east in this case. Given the huge volume of Roman period > trade across to south India from the Mediterrranean cultural sphere, > this may not be too far fetched -- quite conjectural but interesting > all the same. Why do we have to suppose a flow of ideas in the connection with scepticism? Sceptics have been found everywhere, I believe, since times immemorial. Some cultures or societies may punish them if they get to be too loud-mouthed, but it would seem to me that scepticism is a fairly natural state in quite a few individuals. Aren't there people in the Vedic period who say "neti, neti" in connection with Indra? George Thompson wrote (on a different subject): >Now, I know that the handbooks say that if a script consists of something >like 250 to 500 distinct signs it is probably a mixture of a logographic and >a syllabic sign system. As Michael Witzel observes, the high number of signs >in IVC suggests that the system is basically logographic. But I wonder >whether the combination of [1] a large number of distinct signs and [2] the >very short length of the typical IVC sign sequence might best lead to the >conclusion that what we have in IVC is a mnemonic graphic system. How does this jibe with the idea that the signs were used for trade? So far, we seem to have the following suggestions as to the Harappan sign function: 1) a proper writing system 2) a logographic system used for trade purposes 3) a sign system possibly used for personal identification 4) a mnemonic system where the sign has the value of a set narrative More than one of these functions may of course apply at the same time. But I find 4) dubious. If we discard 1), we are left with varieties of 2) and 3). Combinations of signs may of course carry standardized messages, but if we were dealing with a mnemonic system as described by George, why would we find the signs used for trading purposes in the assumed way? How much semantic/semiotic load can a sign have at the same time? Would a sign be used as a shipment tag for customs purposes one day and as a symbol for a standardized narrative on the next day? Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From saf at SAFARMER.COM Thu Jul 6 17:31:14 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 10:31:14 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059619.23782.5921214039503158306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wrote, about an ancient story that circulated about "Socrates" being put down by an Indian wiseman: > In extant documents, this *particular* story first shows up in the 4th > century CE -- nearly 800 years after the death of "Socrates"! Nanda Chandran responded: > That itself need not invalidate the story. Even the Buddhist canon that we > have now was put down in writing centuries after the historic Buddha. Still > we accept that as his teachings. That does invalidate the story. Already by the mid 4th century BCE -- let alone 800 years later -- "Socrates" (who supposedly died in 399 BCE) was for all practical purposes a fictional character who existed only in the covers of wannabe Platonic dialogues. Compare sometime Xenophon's "Socrates" with the "Socrates" of different dialogues in the Platonic corpus -- not all of which were probably written by same members of the early Platonic school -- or with the stories told about Socrates in Diogenes Laertes. Same for a lot of other eponymous figures, I might add ("Thus I have heard..."). :^) From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Jul 6 09:45:53 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 10:45:53 +0100 Subject: Rashad, protector of Lakshmi? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000704192859.00805e30@mail.adnc.com> Message-ID: <161227059601.23782.3756538325179841292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> J. Kingston Cowart writes: > >Someone I know was recently shown a figurine purported to depict >"Rashad Dav" (or Dan?). He was told that this was a name for a >"protector" of Lakshmi. He declined to purchase the object and has >inquired of me whether or not such a figure exists in any aspect of >Indian mythology. > >I have never heard of any consort or protector for Lakshmi other >than Vishnu -- but "Vishnu has a thousand names" and I may easily >have missed this one. This "protector" is perhaps an attendant deity rather than a consort. The second element in the name will presumably be "dev" (deva). Most likely sources for the first element would seem to be r.s.i (sage) or some derivative of hr.s. (to horripilate, be excited, be joyful etc) such as hars.a (joy). Cp. Hr.s.iikes'a, a name for Vis.n.u and Kr.s.n.a. A Vais.n.ava attendant figure would probably have Vis.n.u-related attributes (conch, cakra, mace?) and name. But this could be a very local deity, adopted into the worship of Laks.mii. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jul 6 10:19:09 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 11:19:09 +0100 Subject: script summary In-Reply-To: <00c701bfe66f$f11f9380$96000080@director> Message-ID: <161227059599.23782.17620901800506472901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Rajesh Kochhar wrote: > What are the facts pertaining to the interpretation of the Harappan > script on which there is a consensus among researchers? If a fresher > were to enter the field,what can he/she take for guaranteed? The best starting point for a fresher is certainly Deciphering the Indus script / Asko Parpola New York, NY : Cambridge University Press, 1994 However, the field changes all the time, as new evidence is unearthed, and new interpretations suggested, as Michael Witzel has just demonstrated. But Parpola's book is a good overview, and very even-handed, even though of course he has his own ideas about the meaning of the IV characters. Parpola's two photographic volumes, Corpus of Indus seals and inscriptions / edited by Jagat Pati Joshi and Asko Parpola ; with the assistance of Erja Lahdenpera and Virpi Hameen-Anttila Helsinki : Suomalainen tiedeakatemia, 1987- are absolutely essential for anyone thinking seriously about the IV script. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Jul 6 05:56:16 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 11:26:16 +0530 Subject: waiting for breakthrough Message-ID: <161227059595.23782.10589037377556058317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Max Planck,the founder of quantum physics, made a very perceptive observation 100years ago.He said to the effect that there are no debates in science in the sense that people donot change their views because of other people's arguments.. What happens is that one point of view passes out with the passing away of its adherents and the new generation automatically accepts what is by now the mainstream view. This holds in all disciplines. There will always be questions that cannot be answered at any given point of time. In science, when you are short of data, you can order more data through observations/experimentation. This is not possible in history. May be in 50 years there would be uncovered new evidence that would answer some of the questions agitating our minds today. All said and done, history is not in a hurry: we are. Uncertainty in data should reflect in our conclusiions based on them.Which of our assertions and perceptions today are likely to remain valid when a breakthrough comes? Rajesh Kochhar ************* Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pfreund at MUM.EDU Thu Jul 6 17:13:32 2000 From: pfreund at MUM.EDU (Peter Freund) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 12:13:32 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation of l before k Message-ID: <161227059618.23782.18131838906613103986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members: For the Sanskrit teachers amongst you, another somewhat bizarre way that Americans mispronounce Sanskrit has recently come to my attention. Perhaps everyone knows this, but I've never heard it discussed before. There are four semivowels in Sanskrit, ya, ra, la, and va, representing half-contact for the palatal, retroflex (arguable, of course), dental, and labial points of contact. In English, there is apparently a fifth semivowel, an l which is pronounced with the glottis at the back of the throat. This occurs whenever l is followed by k, as in the common word "milk". The l in milk is not a dental--as an Estonian friend of mine--quite fluent in English-- discovered to his chagrin when he could not make his desire for "milk" understood to a waiter because he was mispronouncing the guttural l! In Sanskrit, an l before a k occurs in words like Yajnavalkya, words which are inevitably mispronounced by Americans who unconsciously substitute their guttural l for the proper dental l. Sincerely, Peter Freund From jkcowart at ADNC.COM Thu Jul 6 19:43:09 2000 From: jkcowart at ADNC.COM (J. Kingston Cowart) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 12:43:09 -0700 Subject: Rashad (Thank you.) Message-ID: <161227059625.23782.8155498147268257110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --------------------- Dear Professor Roebuck, Thanks very much for your information. I ought to have picked up on "dev" for Dav in Rashad Dav -- but missed it altogether. The other details were quite beyond my ken and of con- siderable interest. Appreciatively yours, John J. Kingston Cowart, M.S. San Diego, California From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Thu Jul 6 20:04:13 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 13:04:13 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation of l before k Message-ID: <161227059627.23782.7631075530134849978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The contextual (allophonic) pronunciations of Sanskrit sounds are not > studied by Sanskrit grammarians and phoneticians, except perhaps in the > context of what is called faults of pronunciation (uccaara.nado.sa), cf. > chapters in texts like the .Rk-Praatizaakhya and Mahaabhaa.sya. Does the usual pronunciation of braahma.na (as braamha.na or just braamma.na) fall into this category of uccaara.nado.sa ? Is there early notice of this ? -Srini. From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG Thu Jul 6 20:29:03 2000 From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon (Kettenpom)) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 13:29:03 -0700 Subject: European contacts with Hinduism/Harappan signs In-Reply-To: <01BFE734.6C169C40.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227059629.23782.3162493726005406509.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lars Martin Fosse wrote: How does this jibe with the idea that the signs were used for trade? So far, we seem to have the following suggestions as to the Harappan sign function: 1) a proper writing system 2) a logographic system used for trade purposes 3) a sign system possibly used for personal identification 4) a mnemonic system where the sign has the value of a set narrative More than one of these functions may of course apply at the same time. But I find 4) dubious. If we discard 1), we are left with varieties of 2) and 3). Combinations of signs may of course carry standardized messages, but if we were dealing with a mnemonic system as described by George, why would we find the signs used for trading purposes in the assumed way? How much semantic/semiotic load can a sign have at the same time? Would a sign be used as a shipment tag for customs purposes one day and as a symbol for a standardized narrative on the next day? Why not? What are seals normally used for? To provide a guarantee of authenticity or identification and perhaps means of detecting tampering, which would be most useful in trade and government. To provide authenticity, it has to bear an emblem, perhaps with "script" as well, that identifies the source/sealer uniquely. Hence, many elements of what is inscribed on seals are likely to be unique. But identity can carry a message. A Christian of the present era in the United States, in setting up an e-business web-site, might place on his "home" page not only his business's logo, but also an outline of a fish, an ancient Christian symbol of the faith, said to have been used for identifying one to another without attracting hostile notice. A Christian from an older era might have put a cross on his seal. Another may have been named by his parents after Jesus or another religious figure: Christian Brown, Jesus Alou, Michael Jones, Mary Johnson. Each collection of self-identifying symbols and signs thus may include symbols which, in themselves, imply a whole literature and religion, yet in this instance would simply serve as part of the identifying emblem/motto/address, etc. David -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 6 21:14:03 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 14:14:03 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059631.23782.12503808777800097581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Also Parmenides, who is supposed to have been a soldier in the Parmenides of Elea? >Grecian army >which invaded India, seems to teach Who supposes this? Unless you know of somebody named Parmenides who lived post-Aristotle, it is impossible for him to have been part of any Greek army that invaded India. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Jul 6 19:29:22 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 15:29:22 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation of l before k In-Reply-To: <3964BE3C.962CEE1E@mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227059623.23782.10992995759359473012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The contextual (allophonic) pronunciations of Sanskrit sounds are not studied by Sanskrit grammarians and phoneticians, except perhaps in the context of what is called faults of pronunciation (uccaara.nado.sa), cf. chapters in texts like the .Rk-Praatizaakhya and Mahaabhaa.sya. I have a feeling that with the emergence of Sanskrit phonetics and grammar, a high value was placed on the distinctness of sounds (their phonemic value?) but not on their contextual variation, except what could be represented in terms of discret sounds (var.na). The sub-var.na (sub-phonemic / allo-phonemic) phonology of Sanskrit was not pursued as vigorously. Occasional references to sub-phonemic variation do pop up in texts, but there is no systematic treatment. There is a passage in Kaiya.ta's Pradeepa where he refers to something like voicing of k occurring between two vowels. This would show a Prakritic tendency at sub-phonemic level in spoken Sanskrit. If I can locate the passage, I will be more precise. But such statements can be collected and studied. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Peter Freund wrote: > Dear list members: > > For the Sanskrit teachers amongst you, another somewhat bizarre way that > Americans mispronounce Sanskrit has recently come to my attention. > Perhaps everyone knows this, but I've never heard it discussed before. > > There are four semivowels in Sanskrit, ya, ra, la, and va, representing > half-contact for the palatal, retroflex (arguable, of course), dental, and > labial points of contact. In English, there is apparently a fifth > semivowel, an l which is pronounced with the glottis at the back of the > throat. This occurs whenever l is followed by k, as in the common word > "milk". The l in milk is not a dental--as an Estonian friend of > mine--quite fluent in English-- discovered to his chagrin when he could > not make his desire for "milk" understood to a waiter because he was > mispronouncing the guttural l! > > In Sanskrit, an l before a k occurs in words like Yajnavalkya, words which > are inevitably mispronounced by Americans who unconsciously substitute > their guttural l for the proper dental l. > > Sincerely, > > Peter Freund > From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Thu Jul 6 22:51:50 2000 From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela or Alain Sandness Leblanc) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 17:51:50 -0500 Subject: European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059633.23782.17113891874511871445.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding Nikitine see also: Athanase Nikitine, Le Voyage au-del? les Trois mers, introduction, traduction du vieux-russe et notes par Ch. Malamoud - suivi de Une oeuvre litt?raire par N. Troubetkoy (traduit du russe par Ch. Malamoud) Paris: Francois Maspero, La D?couverte, 1982. Best wishes, Adela Sandness Associate Researcher Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University ---------- >From: Michael Witzel >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: European contacts with Hinduism >Date: Thu, Jul 6, 2000, 8:29 AM > >One person that always is forgotten is the early Russian trader Nikitin. >It is a long time that I looked at him, so please read yourself, >and it also is unlikely that he had a great impact on the rest of Europe, >but here he is: > > > India in the fifteenth >century : being a collection of > narratives of voyages to >India in the century preceding the > Portuguese discovery of the >Cape of Good Hope from Latin, > Persian, Russian, and >Italian sourcess / edited, with an > introduction [by] R.H. Major. > New Delhi : Asian >Educational Service, 1992. > > >Sabsoub, Jean-Pierre. >Die Reise des Kaufmanns Nikitin von der Rus' nach Indien, 1466-1472 : ein >Beitrag zur Begegnung mit dem Anderen / Jean -Pierre Sabsoub. Bonn : >Holos, 1988. > > > Nikitin, Afanasii Nikitich, > Khozhenie za tri moria >Afanasiia Nikitina / izdanie podgotovili > IA.S. Lur'e i L.S. Semenov. > Leningrad : Izd-vo "Nauka," >Leningradskoe otd-nie, 1986. > >Le voyage au-dela des trois mers d'Afanasij Nikitin : (1466 -1472) / >introd., traduction du vieux-russe et notes par Jean -Yves Le Guillou. >Quebec, Canada : Comeditex, 1978. > > >plus a dozen more, older books. Also a detailed Slavistic/Indian >dissertation, by > >Inge Wezler, diss. Univ. Tuebingen c. 1965/70. > >(perhaps George Bauman can help here, please?) > > >======================================================== >Michael Witzel >Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University >2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA > >ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) >home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > >Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Thu Jul 6 16:14:04 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 18:14:04 +0200 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059614.23782.3325437864142282256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Plotinus's ideas are said to stem from his teacher Ammonius Saccas, A mysterious figure who never wrote anyhting down. There have been speculations that he was originally Indian. Regards Erik Hoogcarspel. Stephen Hodge wrote: > > You have the story right, but it doesn't show up in the Platonic > > corpus (for 'Plato's works,' read 'works of the 4th-century BCE > > Platonic school') -- too early. > > Of course, though much later, there was the Neo-Platonist interest in > things Eastern. Plotinus accompanied the ill-fated expedition of the > emperor Gordian into Persia with the specific intention of making > contact with Indian philosophers. Though he never made it to India, > some see clear signs of Indian thought in his later works though the > similarities are more probably coincidental. I can't find the > reference but I recollect there was an account of some "gymnosophist" > visiting the emperor who expounded his philosophy and then immolated > himself in fire to prove his detachment. I am not sure however > whether this was during Gordian's trip or earlier -- perhaps somebody > else might know. > Going the other way, there are said to be striking parallels between > the scepticism of the Pyrrhonists (Sextus Empiricus & co) and the > Madhyamikas in India -- the flow of ideas thought to have been from > west to east in this case. Given the huge volume of Roman period > trade across to south India from the Mediterrranean cultural sphere, > this may not be too far fetched -- quite conjectural but interesting > all the same. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Jul 6 23:38:46 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 19:38:46 -0400 Subject: European contacts with Hinduism/Harappan signs Message-ID: <161227059638.23782.12273494616890312617.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In response to the comments of Lars Martin Fosse: The thing about a mnemonic device, of course, is that it is used to remind you of what you already know [the competent reader of a sUtra uses the sUtra to trigger his own thoughts, or perhaps rather the tradition that has been taught to him]. In the case of the Scythian 'message' to Darius which I cited in my last post, it was delivered to Darius by a messenger who knew what it meant, but who declined to interpret it. So Darius had to consult with 'scholars' to interpret it for him. This applies also to sUtras and early mnemonic writing systems. Obviously interpretation of such things is not an easy process. This illustrates in general the position that a reader is in when confronted with a mnemonic sign. If one does not have that prerequisite knowledge, the sign is opaque. Now, I've been reading Jean Bottero on the development of cuneiform script. Apparently, the earliest samples of such a writing system, such as the Uruk tablets [dating to the end of the 4th. millennium BCE], remain for the most part undecipherable. The only intelligible portion of them is the number system The general point behind my suggestion [admittedly uninformed] is that *IF* the IVC script is of this sort then deciphering it will be virtually impossible, like these Uruk tablets. But that is the worst case scenario. I think that Michael Witzel's better informed suggestion that we are dealing with logographs for the most part, with determinatives and a few syllablic signs, is both more likely and more promising. Nevertheless, the high frequency of signs that occur only once would seem to be a troubling omen for those who think that the IVC sign system is a true script. Finally, I did not mean to imply that IVC signs, if mnemonic, had to be tied to fixed narrative sequences, although perhaps in ritual contexts they could have been. On the contrary, I meant [perhaps not very clearly] that the message attached to such signs was rather free-floating and unfixed. The difficulty for one interpreting such signs is that one has to rely on one's own inference from context, since the sign itself is more or less mute [at least compared to true scripts]. I think that the remarks of David Salmon make perfect senses in this context. I hope that I am not belaboring the obvious. George Thompson From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 7 03:02:05 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 20:02:05 -0700 Subject: script summary Message-ID: <161227059643.23782.6805411894253810390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am little surprised that Vol. 3 announced in 1996 has not come out yet. Parpola, Asko, B. M. Pande and Petteri Koskikallio, (in press), Corpus of Indus seals and inscriptions, Vol. 3 (p. 41, A. Parpola, Deciphering the Indus script: Methods and select interpretations, Keynote address delivered at the 25th Annual S. Asia conf., UWisconsin). Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Thu Jul 6 18:20:04 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 20:20:04 +0200 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059621.23782.18064239178079967822.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Witzel's response was to claims by > another poster that Chinese hadn't changed from > c. 300 BCE to the present (!) That other poster claimed no such thing, merely that Chinese script has hardly changed between the implementation by the early Han of Qin Shihuang's script reform, rather ca. 200 BC, and Mao's script reform. That same poster had demonstrated in a website article, posted in tempore non suspecto, that the following was no news to him either: > All specialists agree that before the Han > dynasty ancient Chinese was anything *but* "fixed"! >???From recent inputs here, I gather that the situation in the IVC had this much in common with China, that a formative and anarchic period was followed by one of standardization and stability, though still more varied by region than in China. Though no theory I hold dear depends on it, that still seems compatible with the existence of IVC literature. But again, I'd rather reserve further speculation until I have familiarized myself with the new findings announced by Prof. Witzel. Meanwhile I notice that some list members have swiftly dismissed the recent decipherment by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram. It would be quite a service to the perplexed public, esp. in India, if the non-viability of that decipherment were firmly demonstrated rather than cursorily asserted. I assume most of you have more urgent matters on their hands, but to your students it might be a useful exercise. I will gladly settle for Prof. Witzel's diagnosis that regarding the Indus script we are back at square one, but then it might be good for the next generation of scholars to get a hands-on experience of what was wrong with the 20th-century decipherments, all the better to make a radically new start. K. Elst From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Jul 7 03:21:44 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 20:21:44 -0700 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059645.23782.17015364945596748839.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On the "recent decipherment [of Harappan] by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram," K. Elst writes -- possibly with a touch of irony?: > Meanwhile I notice that some list members have swiftly dismissed the recent > decipherment by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram. It would be quite a service to the > perplexed public, esp. in India, if the non-viability of that decipherment > were firmly demonstrated rather than cursorily asserted. I assume most of > you have more urgent matters on their hands, but to your students it might > be a useful exercise. I will gladly settle for Prof. Witzel's diagnosis > that regarding the Indus script we are back at square one, but then it might > be good for the next generation of scholars to get a hands-on experience of > what was wrong with the 20th-century decipherments, all the better to make a > radically new start. Many spectacular claims have indeed appeared in India and online about the book by Jha & Rajaram. Unfortunately, the book is nearly impossible to get in the West. I ordered a copy of it -- prepaid! -- from India long ago and have never received it; repeated emails to the Indian publisher checking to check its status have gone unanswered. I have also corresponded with one of its authors, to whom I've mentioned repeatedly how much I wanted to read it; I've also been promised a copy by one of his former collaborators in the US -- and despite all these efforts still haven't been able to get my hands on it. The book is not found in any university library in California -- where I do most of my research -- nor has a copy been deposited yet even with the Library of Congress. Meanwhile, an extensive publicity campaign in India has announced that the Harappan code has been broken (see below) "thereby solving what is widely regarded as the most significant technical problem in historical research in our time." I'm absolutely sure that if researchers could get their hands on the that it would get the evaluation that the book deserves. You can hardly equate an eagerness to dismiss things unread with inaccessibility. Way back on 13 March 2000, Dr. Elst, you wrote to this List, with obvious excitement: > Friends, > > Just returned from India, carrying among other things the freshly published > Deciphered Harappan Script by N. Jha & N.S. Rajaram. You seem also to suggest in today's post that Jha & Rajaram may indeed have already cracked the code. If so, you could contribute *immensely* to this discussion if you could summarize the key arguments in Jha & Rajaram for everyone. I have no doubts that every scholar in the world would welcome any definitive decipherment no matter what initial skepticism they might have. Any real decipherment would constitute one of the grandest historical breakthroughs of modern times -- as rightly stated in the press release accompanying the book. When a code is broken (think of Linear B or the recent decipherment of Maya!) the results can be readily verified -- and even the skeptics can quickly be won over: You've either broken the code or you haven't -- "Yes" or "No." You have access to Jha & Rajaram, unlike other Western scholars. Has the code in fact been broken? If so, could you kindly explain the results for the rest of us? All I know about Jha & Rajaram comes from their press releases and some correspondence that I've had with one of the authors, who *does* claim -- unequivocally -- that they've cracked the code. I've posted on the Web one of their press releases and the book's table of contents so that everyone can get a fair idea of the magnitude of what they are claiming. I've highlighted in red some key items in the press release. To see it, go to: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode/html Let me here summarize what is in that press release without editorializing: In it (at the bottom), Dr. Jha is described as "one of the world's foremost Vedic scholars and palaeographers who has deciphered the 5000 year-old Indus (Harappan) script, thereby solving what is widely regarded as the most significant technical problem in historical research in our time." Fully justified if the code is indeed cracked. We find in the Jha/Rajaram release that Harappan is "Vedic Sanskrit," but in a form "less archaic than that of the Rigveda," corresponding "closely to that of later Vedic works like the Suutras and the Upanishads." The obvious suggestion is that the RV goes back before Harappan civilization and that the Upanishads and Suutras are cotemporaneous with it. Thus we find that the "Harappans belong to the later Vedic Age," that the Upanishads and Suutras are of hoary age -- and the RV is *by far* mankind's earliest text. I for one am willing -- eager! -- to listen to any and all arguments that you are willing to report on these views, Dr. Elst. I'm very sure that others too would also join in on the discussion. > It would be quite a service to the > perplexed public, esp. in India, if the non-viability of that decipherment > were firmly demonstrated rather than cursorily asserted. I assume most of > you have more urgent matters on their hands, but to your students it might > be a useful exercise. I will gladly settle for Prof. Witzel's diagnosis > that regarding the Indus script we are back at square one, but then it might > be good for the next generation of scholars to get a hands-on experience of > what was wrong with the 20th-century decipherments, all the better to make a > radically new start. You alone have the book in hand and can get the discussion that you say you want going. Are you willing to start? My best, Steve Farmer From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Jul 7 03:34:27 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 20:34:27 -0700 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! (Corrected!) Message-ID: <161227059647.23782.16222359461788323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There was a broken link in my original message and some typos. Here both have been corrected. The link is to the promised press release for Jha/Rajaram found at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode.html Correcting it, I use my second and last allotted Indology post for the day. xxxx On the "recent decipherment [of Harappan] by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram," K. Elst writes -- possibly with a touch of irony?: > Meanwhile I notice that some list members have swiftly dismissed the recent > decipherment by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram. It would be quite a service to the > perplexed public, esp. in India, if the non-viability of that decipherment > were firmly demonstrated rather than cursorily asserted. I assume most of > you have more urgent matters on their hands, but to your students it might > be a useful exercise. I will gladly settle for Prof. Witzel's diagnosis > that regarding the Indus script we are back at square one, but then it might > be good for the next generation of scholars to get a hands-on experience of > what was wrong with the 20th-century decipherments, all the better to make a > radically new start. Many spectacular claims have indeed appeared in India and online about the book by Jha & Rajaram. Unfortunately, the book is nearly impossible to get in the West. I ordered a copy of it -- prepaid! -- from India long ago and have never received it; repeated emails to the Indian publisher to check on its status have gone unanswered. I have also corresponded with one of its authors, to whom I've mentioned repeatedly how much I wanted to read it; I've also been promised a copy by one of his former collaborators in the US -- and despite all these efforts still haven't been able to get my hands on it. The book is not found in any university library in California -- where I do most of my research -- nor has a copy been deposited yet even with the Library of Congress. Meanwhile, an extensive publicity campaign in India has announced that the Harappan code has been broken (see below) "thereby solving what is widely regarded as the most significant technical problem in historical research in our time." I'm absolutely sure that if researchers could get their hands on the book that it would get the evaluation that the book deserves. Way back on 13 March 2000, Dr. Elst, you wrote to this List, with obvious excitement: > Friends, > > Just returned from India, carrying among other things the freshly published > Deciphered Harappan Script by N. Jha & N.S. Rajaram. You seem also to suggest in today's post that Jha & Rajaram may indeed have already cracked the code. If so, you could contribute *immensely* to this discussion if you could summarize the key arguments in Jha & Rajaram for everyone. I have no doubts that every scholar in the world would welcome any definitive decipherment no matter what initial skepticism they might have. Any real decipherment would constitute one of the grandest historical breakthroughs of modern times -- as rightly stated in the press release accompanying the book. When a code is broken (think of Linear B or the recent decipherment of Maya!) the results can be readily verified -- and even the skeptics can quickly be won over: You've either broken the code or you haven't -- "Yes" or "No." You have access to Jha & Rajaram, unlike other Western scholars. Has the code in fact been broken? If so, could you kindly explain the results for the rest of us? All I know about Jha & Rajaram comes from their press releases and some correspondence that I've had with one of the authors, who *does* claim -- unequivocally -- that they've cracked the code. I've posted on the Web one of their press releases and the book's table of contents so that everyone can get a fair idea of the magnitude of what they are claiming. I've highlighted in red some key items in the press release. To see it, go to: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode.html Let me here summarize what is in that press release without editorializing: In it (at the bottom), Dr. Jha is described as "one of the world's foremost Vedic scholars and palaeographers who has deciphered the 5000 year-old Indus (Harappan) script, thereby solving what is widely regarded as the most significant technical problem in historical research in our time." Fully justified if the code is indeed cracked. We find in the Jha/Rajaram release that Harappan is "Vedic Sanskrit," but in a form "less archaic than that of the Rigveda," corresponding "closely to that of later Vedic works like the Suutras and the Upanishads." The obvious suggestion is that the RV goes back before Harappan civilization and that the Upanishads and Suutras are cotemporaneous with it. Thus we find that the "Harappans belong to the later Vedic Age," that the Upanishads and Suutras are of hoary age -- and the RV is *by far* mankind's earliest text. I for one am willing -- eager! -- to listen to any and all arguments that you are willing to report on these views, Dr. Elst. I'm very sure that others too would also join in on the discussion. > It would be quite a service to the > perplexed public, esp. in India, if the non-viability of that decipherment > were firmly demonstrated rather than cursorily asserted. I assume most of > you have more urgent matters on their hands, but to your students it might > be a useful exercise. I will gladly settle for Prof. Witzel's diagnosis > that regarding the Indus script we are back at square one, but then it might > be good for the next generation of scholars to get a hands-on experience of > what was wrong with the 20th-century decipherments, all the better to make a > radically new start. You alone have the book in hand and can get the discussion that you say you want going. Are you willing to start? My best, Steve Farmer From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 7 04:54:22 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 21:54:22 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059649.23782.11585707449173608380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > --- Michael Witzel wrote: > > In answer to several messages listed under both > > threads: > > > > Obviously, when trying to etymologize S. Indian > > river names we have to try > > all Dravidian possibilities, -- within the realm of > > probability. > > Most rivers flowing in Tamilnadu do not seem to have > clear/convincing Tamil etymologies. Names like vaiyai, > koLLiTam are evidently phonetic Tamilization of alien > sounds. I am reminded of the conversation between Nanda Chandran and Kellner :-)) ------ nanda chandran wrote: ..>isn't it strange that > UdhayAna, if he came after Shankara would try to prove the existence of god > on logical grounds? To which Kellner responded: Second: Even if it were admitted to be strange that Udayana should continue a debate that SaGkara decided not to continue - which I personally would not consider strange at all -, such "atmospheric" considerations are not a reliable basis for establishing the relative chronology of Indian philosophers, nor do they constitute sufficient evidence to call into question datings that are otherwise firmly established. -------- Laxmi your considerations may be deemed equally atmospheric. What exactly is the basis for suspecting that these hydronyms are of alien origin? Given the classical nature of Tamil meanig that a whole lot of linguistic elements would have fallen out of favor over the millenia, thse are alien wrt modern Tamil or caGkam era tamil? You at least have to show due diligence in asserting a priori that keDilam is atypical caGkam or post-Cagkam Tamil. koLLiDam: What is alien about its phonetics? with the doubled retroflex and -am suffix, it is as tamil as it gets. My Tamil teacher said it was a corruption of the verbal noun "koLLaDam" = koL + aDam where koL = to hold, contain; -aDam is a verbal noun suffix which is out of active usage for constructing verbal nouns, though there are many words employing that suffix in use: kaTTaDam (kaTtu + aDam) = building, book binding; note that this word is often corrupted as kaTTiDam. oRRaDam (oRRu + adam) = fomentation [some other examples not in currency: cetukkaDam = gem polishing karaVaDam = theft] >Trying to look at the semantic content of the > constituent syllables of these river names would lead > to absurd conclusions. For example there is already a > popular etymology for the river name vaiyai or rather > its variant vaikai. "Vaikai" literally means "keep > your hand" and on this basis an etymology has been > developed for which poor Siva had to be pressed into > service :-) Not more absurd than the sthalapurANas spun around the Sanskritization of taNporunai as tAmraparuni :-)) > > Some others like keTilam seem phonetically alien. Given Tamil words such as neTil, ceTi etc., what is alien about the phonetics of keTilam? Also change of word-initial short a- to e- is well attested in Dravidian. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 7 04:57:31 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 21:57:31 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059651.23782.14807053265989591692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ah, skeptical indeed! But not to be confused with ?cynical? please. I mean, after all, if it was good enough for the Buddha, it is good enough for me. Someone?s jaw dropped; his eyebrows went oblique. ?And what do you mean by that, Professor?? ?Listen. Just because I do not practice all your bodily contortions and suffocating breathing exercises, does not mean I do not know something about the history of Yoga. ?It is interesting to note,? the plump guy commenced, ?that when the Greek philosopher Anaxarchus, together with his prot?g? Pyrrho of Elis, traveled to India in 326 BC, they mixed with a menagerie of odd appearing ascetics known locally as yogis <"gymnosophist">. Now, it is even more curious that upon their return they founded not a school of meditative mysticism, as one would expect, but the first Greek school of Skepticism.? ?No kidding? I suppose those must have been the earliest accounts of direct Indian influence on the Mediterranean World.? ?Thank you dear student, I appreciate that. You have struck to the core of the hoary conundrum.? ?But who can crack it?? The professor took a sip of coffee. ?Well,? he said, ?as far as I can figure out, the visiting scholars must have mainly mixed with Indian materialists or the Hinayana Buddha-cult. ?How do I know this?? The earliest account on the life of Pyrrho is by guy named Diogenes Laertius. He describes his subject as ?always having the same disposition.? Pyrrho apparently liked setting off on journeys without letting anybody know where he going. He was happy to wander in cognito with anyone that happened to come along. But he apparently liked staying alone in the desert where he rarely showed himself to other people.? ?Sounds like a Bhikkhu to me.? ?Funny you should say that. According to an eminent British scholar,* Pyrrho?s friends revered him as a saint, along the lines of a Buddhist arahant.? ?Then how come ?skeptical??? The student was curious. ?Pyrrho sounds more like the silent ascetic type.? ?I agree with you, and so does his biographer. Laertius puts down ?speechlessness? and ?imperturbability? as Pyrrho?s prime accomplishments. However, in spite of his strong laconic bent, Pyrrho became a huge celebrity. He was made chief priest of his native city, Elis, and philosophers were granted tax-exempt status on his account.? ?That?s very interesting.? ?Indeed,? said the professor. He lit another cigarette. ?And if you start to view the thing like this, i.e., ?historically,? one begins to imagine how what we normally view as Buddh-(?ism?) was originally more a of philosophic practice than a set of stifling religious rites and tenets.? ?And so it is Buddha The Philosopher whom you regard as ?skeptical.?? ?Correct.? ?But what does ?skeptical? really mean?? The professor paused to take a long draw. He exhaled slowly then flicked a little ash on the floor. ?The original sense of the Greek-derived skeptikos does not mean to ?doubt,? but to ?observe and question.? One is always to refrain from drawing conclusions. This is how the Skeptics came to the point where they questioned the basis of knowledge itself and the validity of affirming anything at all. This is furthermore the basis of the Scientific Method.? ?Now wait,? the student blinked. ?Have I got this right? You are trying to say that Buddhists are Skeptics?? The professor shook his head no. ?Forget about the ?Buddhists.? I am simply affirming that Gautama was.? Sincerely, Ven. Tantra _______________ Reference *Burnet, John. ?Sceptics.? Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. XI, ed., John Hastings, Edinburg, 1920. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jul 7 05:50:58 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 00 22:50:58 -0700 Subject: [European contacts with India] Message-ID: <161227059652.23782.1564561775636820953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: There was an article in the Philosophy East & West sometime in the 80s which went into this in detail. My back numbers are all in storage so I regret I can't give you the exact reference. Could you be referring to the following articles ? a) Early Greek Philosophy and Maadhyamika, Thomas McEvilley, Philosophy East and West, 31,2, [1981]; and b) Pyrrhonism and Maadhyamika, Thomas McEvilley, Philosophy East and West, 32,1,[1982]. These papers illustrate the parallelism between two dialectical systems. No claim is made regarding the direction of flow. Until a YavanakArikA of Priyasa is discovered, the directionality of flow of ideas remains a matter of individual predisposition. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jul 6 23:24:53 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 00:24:53 +0100 Subject: script summary In-Reply-To: <20000706114825.32507.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059634.23782.4592022299388044199.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, N. Ganesan wrote: > >Parpola's two photographic volumes, > > Isn't the third volume already published? No. > Also: [several books] Yes, these are indeed books on the IV signs. But a) they are now quite dated, and Asko is in the process of preparing new editions of some of them (e.g., the concordance), and more importantly b) the questioner asked for a good starting point for a beginner, not a bibliography. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jul 6 23:35:55 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 00:35:55 +0100 Subject: Pronunciation of l before k In-Reply-To: <3964BE3C.962CEE1E@mum.edu> Message-ID: <161227059636.23782.15364795437150034726.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pronunciations of /milk/ /miwk/ /miLk/ are class isoglosses in Britain. Oops! Of course we are all classless social democrats now 8-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Jul 7 00:15:10 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 01:15:10 +0100 Subject: European contacts with India Message-ID: <161227059639.23782.18386496166867211076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Fosse wrote: > Why do we have to suppose a flow of ideas in the connection with > scepticism? Sceptics have been found everywhere, I believe, since times > immemorial. True but there are quite specific features of Pyrrhonism and Madhyamika in common over and above mere scepticism that have led to the theory that there was some sort of direct contact. There was an article in the Philosophy East & West sometime in the 80s which went into this in detail. My back numbers are all in storage so I regret I can't give you the exact reference. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Jul 7 00:16:12 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 01:16:12 +0100 Subject: Harappan non-texts Message-ID: <161227059641.23782.711127806235956629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr Farmer wrote: > In terms of differences in style, the characters in Text A > are written in 'small seal' form, an old style of writing > that was to be abandoned in the Han; the characters in Text B > by way of contrast, are written in the more modern "clerical" > script. This is one indication that Text A was copied before Text B. According to Chinese sources on the development of the script, the "small seal" style (Text A) was the official script during the Qin period but because it was awkward to write quickly the clerical script (Text B) was developed but these existed in tandem -- a bit like Egyptian hieroglyphs with hieratic and later demotic. However, the various styles of writing Chinese were used anachronistically for various purposes down to the present -- Japanese personal seals used daily by millions still use small seal script. I agree overall with the other authorities you quote although it does rather seem to be a matter of emphasis -- the Chinese seem to prefer to emphasize the continuity aspect. Thus Yin Binyong, a senior academician at the Beijing Institute of Applied Linguistics, says "although there have been many changes in their forms, from the point of view of the writing system as a whole, there has been no basic qualitative change." > M. Witzel is right: All specialists agree that before the Han > dynasty ancient Chinese was anything *but* "fixed" ! > But that is not quite the same as saying "the Chinese script of 300 BCE is not that of 300 CE" -- true there are many changes, simplifications and changes in calligraphic style but the bulk of characters in use during the Han period and later can be traced clearly back to the small and earlier large seal scripts. A quick look at Morohashi or the Hanyu Dazidian dictionaries will confirm this. There have also been many non-standard characters in existence throughout Chinese literary history that are recognized as variants on "official" forms. Anyway, all this corroborates your views about scribal pressures towards simplification to produce literature in bulk which is something not apparent in IV script -- even if that script was preserved as an official "archaic" form one would expect more cursive forms of the script to have been used in tandem as with Chinese and other languages. *************** Michael Witzel wrote: Yes, in modern N. Chinese (Beijing). And that's an extreme case, with just CV or CV+Nasal shapes of syllables. Even modern S. Chinese and earlier N. Chinese have more possibilities. Add, for ex. southern -p, -t, -k (as in Chang Kai Chek) and you get quite a few more than 420... ***** Yes, I am aware of this as I use early medieval Chinese transcriptions to reconstruct Indic original terms from Buddhist texts. But there were still a fairly limited number of possible syllables since I believe you do not get final p/t/k in all possible post-vocalic combinations. It is a moot question whether ancient Chinese was tonal at all but some theorize that tones arose with the impoverishment of the permissible shape of words and phonetic system. This can be seen with modern Tibetan which has rapidly become a tonal language over the past 50 years for similar reasons (under Chinese influence, no doubt). >>if the [IV] script >>worked on a syllabic basis as with Chinese words you might expect >>around 400 -- 600 signs. >Based on what type of language ?? I was just commenting on the coincidence rather than theorizing any particular language. Through your own research, you have certain theories about what the IV language might have been like and I am not in a position to disagree with you since that is not my field of expertise though I note that other people have other theories -- Dravidian etc. A "mono-syllabic" Tibeto-Burman type of language might fit this small range of signs but I will leave that to others to argue over. It does seem to me however that 400 - 600 logographic signs is pretty sparse for a sophisticated writing system which adds weight to the mnemonic theory -- in which case there is probably no hope of ever deciphering the script as with Easter Island rongo-rongo. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 7 14:49:53 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 07:49:53 -0700 Subject: h after t and d in S. Indian transliterations Message-ID: <161227059660.23782.5481569788985218981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Normally, Indians transliterate the english letter t which is alveolar into a retroflex. Eg., the english word, tea becomes ".tii" in all of India. When S. Indians started going to schools with English as the language of instruction, they just used "h" following english practice as seen in a) Thames, Thomas b) chirp c) Shannon etc., Tamil and Drav., in general have no aspirates. So, the problem of what to do for the aspirates for N. Indian languages does not arise. In S. India, (Harvard-Kyoto convention) "t" => th, (HK) S(.s) => sh, (HK) z("s) => sh and so on is used in English. Whereas in the North or among Sanskritists, "h" is reserved for representing aspirates. --- Allen W Thrasher wrote: > I notice that South Indian publications when using Anglicisations or > informal Romanizations of Sanskrit terms often add h after d dental > and possibly t dental. Why is this? Could it be that since English t > and d are alveolar rather than really dental and so are in between > Indic dentals and retroflexes, the h brings the tongue forward against > the teeth and so to the Dravidian speaker represents a dental better, > whereas an English dental would sound closer to a retroflex? > > Allen Thrasher > > > > Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. > > Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE > Southern Asia Section LJ-150 > Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 > Library of Congress U.S.A. > tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 > Email: athr at loc.gov > > The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the > Library of Congress. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From GthomGt at CS.COM Fri Jul 7 11:50:00 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 07:50:00 -0400 Subject: Fwd: foreign members of BORI lose voting privileges Message-ID: <161227059658.23782.8163599336712143924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I forward this message from Tim Lubin, at his request. I trust that it needs no comment. George Thompson In a message dated 7/7/00 1:20:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tlubin at hotmail.com writes: > > It has recently come to attention that the Bhandarkar Institute's regulating > > council has voted to amend the Institute's constitution to deprive foreign > life members of voting privileges. This change was proposed by Dr. C. G. > Kashikar; as I heard it, only one committee member raised an objection. The > > ostensible reason provided was to avoid the expense of mailing out ballots > overseas at election time. > > As I happened to be in town for yesterday's (6 July) general meeting, and > being (so far as I could tell) the only "foreign" member present, I took it > upon myself to raise an objection. I noted that the "Report" of the > Regulating Council for 1999-2000, distributed at the meeting, made no > mention of this major decision, nor had members been notified of it. I said > > further that it seemed to me quite inappropriate for an international > research organization with a democratically constituted membership, nor was > it in the best interests of the Institute. Dr. Dhadphale, who was > presiding, responded simply that the decision had been taken, but could be > reconsidered at a later time. He provided no other explanation. > > Now I suppose it is quite likely that participation of foreign scholars in > voting is generally rather spotty, but this is no reason to deprive them of > the right to vote. The reason I was given is financial problem that could > be solved in many other ways (such as applying some extra fee to cover > postage for ballot papers, as is done for the Annals mailings). It is not a > > constitutional matter, in any case. > > I cannot help wondering what "foreign" means here. Will it cover any member > > living outside India? Or those without Indian citizenship? Or is the > matter to be decided on the basis of ethnicity? In any case the possible > ramifications seem quite serious to me. I would encourage other "foreign" > members (whoever that might include) to register your thoughts on the matter > > with the administration of the BORI. > > Tim Lubin > Assistant Professor of Religion (Religions of South Asia) > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, VA 24450 USA > > (540) 463-8055 (home); -8146 (office); -8498 (fax) > Electronic mail: LubinT at WLU.edu > Home Page: http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/tlubin.html > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 4509 URL: From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Fri Jul 7 05:57:27 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 07:57:27 +0200 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059654.23782.14116268455819332875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Farmer et al., Aditya Prakashan publishers usually send their books through Biblia Impex, to my experience 100% reliable book exporters (unlike a few other Indian book traders who still owe me). It has happened, though, that the Indian postal services sent books stamped for air mail by surface mail, so I keep hoping you belatedly still get what is yours. One place in the US which should have stocked the Jha/Rajaram book is the bookshop attached to the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam in Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania. Also, at the annual South Asia conference in Madison, a few years ago (and I suppose even now) there used to be a book stand which had the pro-OIT publications included in the Hindu nationalist section; I am sure some list members could identify the bookseller. About the contents of the book. It opens with a chapter which is sure to put most of you off, giving once more the whole argument about the colonial-missionary-racist-political uses of the AIT, generally valid as a historical point, but quite unpleasant when read as implying that today's Western academics are guided by such motives. Should be read against the background of the nasty politicized atmosphere in India's history departments (vide e.g. the attack on Prof. B.B. Lal's integrity by Prof. D.N. Jha posted here recently). Given that Prof. Rajaram had already written two books about the politics of history and specifically AIT politics, I think this chapter should have been left out. Not being members of this list or similar forums, the authors (at the time of writing, 1999) seem to be unaware that even in the prejudiced West, the debate has moved on from the stage of name-calling and attributing motives. Coming to the decipherment, first of all some lessons are drawn from the failure of the initially acclaimed (Sanskritic) decipherment by S.R. Rao. Rao has published a list of Indian, Israeli and Western experts in Sanskrit or in decoding who have "accepted" his decipherment. But in most cases it seems his correspondents were just being polite, or were unfamiliar with the Indus script. At any rate, Rajaram who had co-authored a paper with Rao in defence of Rao's decipherment, has defected from the Rao camp. One immediately visible mistake of Rao's is the lack of rigour in attributing sound values to signs, e.g. by treating different signs as variants of a single sign/sound, even when these "variants" show up together on the same seal. All the same, Jha and Rajaram still agree with Rao in treating the Indus script as a kind of proto-Brahmi, retaining a number of logographs but mostly already representing sounds rather than objects (kind of like Japanese). As a Bengali writer has called it, "the calligraphic version of Brahmi". More later today. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 7 16:08:11 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 09:08:11 -0700 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism Message-ID: <161227059664.23782.17815528836720011085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Also Parmenides, who is supposed to have been a soldier in the >Parmenides of Elea? Oops, big, big, big mistake. It couldn't have been Parmenides who lived slightly later than the Buddha himself and centuries before NAgArjuna. My statement on the MAdhyamika influence on Greek philosophy was based on a article that I read sometime back. Do not know why Parmenides came to my mind when I tried to remember it. Let me recheck and give the correct name. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 7 16:35:29 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 09:35:29 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059665.23782.8087843482519460725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner writes : >First: I am not familiar with the "Udhayana" referred to by SaGkara, >but >are you sure of the spelling? The later NyAya-VaiZeSika >philosopher's name >is correctly transliterated as "Udayana". I'm sorry. I'm not particularly strong with the rules which govern transliteration. I just spelt the name the way I thought it would sound. >Second: Even if it were admitted to be strange that Udayana should > >continue a debate that SaGkara decided not to continue - which I >personally would not consider strange at all -, such "atmospheric" > >considerations are not a reliable basis for establishing the relative > >chronology of Indian philosophers, nor do they constitute sufficient > >evidence to call into question datings that are otherwise firmly > >established. If Shankara after KumArilla had been the only one who'd given up on the argumentation, I wouldn't be raising this point. All the VedAnta AchAryas who follow Shankara - RAmAnuja, Madhva, NimbArka, Vallabha - all of them sing the same tune. Isn't this a good basis to believe that Indian philosophers after Shankara considered the concept of a creator God as beyond logical proof? And also according to Indological opinion Buddhism was already on the wane by the time of Shankara. The last great Buddhist philosophers - SAntarakshita and Kamalasila were either earlier or at best, comtemporaries of Shankara. I do not think it was a particularly good time for Jainism either, given the rising popularity of the bhakti movement. So who's Udhayana trying to argue with? To whom is he trying to prove the existence of a creator God? His arguments cannot be dismissed as standard NaiyAyika reasoning, for Udhayana himself says that he is battling athiest opponents - which I've seen some scholars interpret as Buddhists. Does this match with the current dating? By the tenth century, philosophical argumentation was mostly between the Astika schools - predominently of the VedAntic variety which accepts God on the strength of the shruti. That the foremost logician of the NyAya school in his time, who has written profound works on the subject, would waste time arguing on an issue which wasn't critical anymore, is hard to believe. Also VisishtAdvaita itself is heavily influenced by NyAya. But right from its earliest stages, the school never tried to defend theism by logic. That there's a God who needs to be worshipped almost seems to be taken for granted. So it is indeed strange that a logician of the NyAya school who according to modern dating was a contemporary or slightly earlier than RAmAnuja would take up such a cause. And for what purpose? Vidhya writes : >Given the nyAya theory that all knowledge derives its validity from >extrinsic sources, irrespective of when he may have lived, Udayana >still >had to argue for inferring the existence of a Creator-God (re: >universe), >who is also supposed to be the Author-God (re: Vedas). Why is this so? If it is accepted that a creator God exists (as the VedAntins did based on the shruti), why is it necessary for a NaiyAyika to logically prove it? The NaiyAyikas have been traditionally a lot who were always engaged in logical duels with the Buddhists and most of their dialectic is directed against them. As pointed out before, if Buddhism was already a waning force, why would the top logician of the school waste him time on an issue which wasn't critical anymore? >Madhusudana Sarasvati cites Udayana approvingly, in his advaitasiddhi. Can you specify the text from which he quotes? I think even Sri Harsha's dialectic in KandanakandakAdhya is directed against Udhayana. But which work are they referring to? >From Atmatattvaviveka, it is clear that Udayana came after Vacaspati >Misra >and some post-Sankaran Buddhists like Ratnakirti. Many of his >arguments >against the Buddhists end with statements that they should >accept advaita >vedAnta positions. That is fine. It is just that the philosophical flavor of KusumAnjali seems to be inconsistent with the philosphical environs of its supposed dating. So the main question seems to be whether the author of KusumAnjali is the same as the author of Atmatattvaviveka. So are there internal references in the works themselves, which assert this? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Fri Jul 7 15:37:28 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 11:37:28 -0400 Subject: Fwd: job announcement Message-ID: <161227059662.23782.10981076892055021209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the JOB POSTINGS section of SARAI. Please contact Rutgers directly for any further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai >------------------------ > >Job Announcement > >The Department of Religion of Rutgers University invites >applications for a position in South Asian religions with an >emphasis on Hinduism to begin Fall 2001. The position will be at the >advanced assistant/associate professor level. Requirements are: > >(1) Ph.D. in hand; >(2) demonstrated ability in teaching undergraduates; and >(3) evidence of scholarly accomplishment. > >Teaching duties will include undergraduate introductory courses in >the history of Eastern religions in addition to the candidate's >primary specialization. It is highly desirable that the candidate >has competence in current theories and methodologies in the study of >religion and can participate in and make a contribution to the >general development of the program. > >Salary will be commensurate with experience. Applicants are >requested to send a dossier, including at least three letters of >recommendation, a curriculum vitae, and samples of scholarly >writings by November 1 to: > >Chun-fang Yu, Chair >Search Committee >Department of Religion >Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey >70 Lipman Drive >140 Loree Annex, Douglass Campus >New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8525 > >Rutgers University is an equal opportunity and affirmative action employer. From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Jul 7 10:55:13 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 11:55:13 +0100 Subject: Darius' problem and the problem of Harappan signs Message-ID: <161227059656.23782.1994035130118740185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am glad to note that in a recent post George Thompson wrote: > the message attached to such signs was rather free-floating and unfixed. The difficulty for one interpreting such signs is that one has to rely on one's own inference from context, since the sign itself is more or less mute [at least compared to true scripts].< The story of Darius fits a pattern seen in legends/folktales, especially of India. Some examples: (a) An Indian king sends a chessboard/game-board to a foreign king and asks that the wise men of his court figure out the game for which the board is meant. (b) A messenger is sent back in a particular manner by the woman being proposed to by the hero and the hero is expected to figure out from the manner what the woman means; cf. Jambhala-datta's version of the Vetaala-pa;nca-vi.m;sati, edited and translated by M. B. Emeneau, American Oriental Series vol. 4, New Haven, Connecticut: American Oriental Society, 1934, pp. 15-20. (c) A minister of a king who really has no means to defend himself 'talks' through the movements of his boat with the minister/messenger of the attacking king(s) and the latter minister/messenger advises his bosses to forget about the attack and run for their lives; cf. the story of Kalpaka in Hema-candra, Pari;si.s.ta-parvan of the Tri.sa.s.ti-;salaakaa-puru.sa-caritra, if necessary in _The Lives of the Jain Elders, translated with an Introduction and Notes by R.C.C. Fynes. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press. 1998. Oxford World's Classics series. (d) A debate is held in which a fool is presented by one side in the disguise of an extraordinary scholar and the fool's rude gestures are interpreted by the other side as expressions of unassailable philosophical arguments or positions. Of course, all these stories must ultimately come from Classical Tamil because I find them delightful and they must all contain historical events because a Greek preserved a story that resembles them. If I have confused legends at the object level with legends at the meta-level or if I have summarized the former so briefly as to make them appear enigmatic ... ashok aklujkar From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Fri Jul 7 19:17:54 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 12:17:54 -0700 Subject: got milk? Message-ID: <161227059668.23782.16938638285835387985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mr. Freund, daza dAdimAni SaD apUpAH kuNDam ajAjinam palalapiNDaH adharorukam etat kumAryAH sphAyakRtasya pitA pratizInaH I am not sure if I really got the point of your post. Are you suggesting that your Estonian friend who is supposedly fluent in the English (I assume you mean one of the many dialects of English spoken in the USA, as opposed the 'British' or 'Canadian" varieties English) and the American Sanskritists are in the same boat in that each one cannot properly and unconsciously pronounce the "l" in a given respective language and should thus be considered as "not fluent"? thank you > For the Sanskrit teachers amongst you, another > somewhat bizarre way that > Americans mispronounce Sanskrit has recently come to > my attention. > Perhaps everyone knows this, but I've never heard it > discussed before. > > There are four semivowels in Sanskrit, ya, ra, la, > and va, representing > half-contact for the palatal, retroflex (arguable, > of course), dental, and > labial points of contact. In English, there is > apparently a fifth > semivowel, an l which is pronounced with the glottis > at the back of the > throat. This occurs whenever l is followed by k, as > in the common word > "milk". The l in milk is not a dental--as an > Estonian friend of > mine--quite fluent in English-- discovered to his > chagrin when he could > not make his desire for "milk" understood to a > waiter because he was > mispronouncing the guttural l! > > In Sanskrit, an l before a k occurs in words like > Yajnavalkya, words which > are inevitably mispronounced by Americans who > unconsciously substitute > their guttural l for the proper dental l. > > Sincerely, > > Peter Freund __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 7 20:08:54 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 13:08:54 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059673.23782.10194355917929448267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran >....Isn't this a good basis to believe that Indian >philosophers after Shankara considered the concept of a creator God as >beyond logical proof? The vedAnta philosophers did. Other schools of Indian philosophy didn't. The sooner one gives up the idea that there is only one "Indian Philosophy", the better. >either, given the rising popularity of the bhakti movement. So who's >Udhayana trying to argue with? Look at it this way. It is an unfounded myth, that the Buddhists just packed their bags and left India for good, after Sankara's time. There is much evidence for the continued presence of Buddhists in many parts of India, down to the 13th century or so. According to your ideas, Ramanuja and Madhva, who came after Sankara, also need not have argued against Buddhist ideas, but they make it a point to refute various schools of Buddhism. To whom is Udayana trying to prove anything? Primarily to Buddhists, and also to anybody who is not a naiyyAyika. >Also VisishtAdvaita itself is heavily influenced by NyAya. But right from >its earliest stages, the school never tried to defend theism by It doesn't seem to be well noticed, but even Advaita is heavily influenced by nyAya. That doesn't mean a thing, however, for the kind of argument you are making. >according to modern dating was a contemporary or slightly earlier than >RAmAnuja would take up such a cause. And for what purpose? This sort of making conclusions about relative dates is quite invalid. That something seems strange does not make it impossible. After all, "strange" is the name given to one of the six kinds of quarks, you know! Still, take into account the regional variation in things Indian. Ramanuja was a south Indian; Udayana lived in Bengal, Bihar, Orissa. His dating is not very "modern" either. In one of his works, he himself gives a date in the late 10th century. You can argue about whether to add 78 or to subtract 57 from the date encoded in the Skt. source, but that only gives you a window of less than 150 years. Of course, you need to give up vague and preconceived notions, and to pay careful attention to the texts, to appreciate all this. >Why is this so? If it is accepted that a creator God exists (as the >VedAntins did based on the shruti), why is it necessary for a NaiyAyika to The vedAntin or the mImAMsaka can accept something as valid because Shruti says so. The naiyyAyika cannot. He does not accept the proposition that Shruti is self-valid. Rather, he says that Shruti is valid because it was composed by the creator. The existence of this creator is proved by other arguments, independent of what Shruti says. Unless you understand the differences between the svataH-prAmANya-vAda of one group and the parataH-prAmANya-vAda of the other, and all the respective implications for these arguments about scripture and the creator, you will continue to find it strange that Udayana makes this argument. >>Madhusudana Sarasvati cites Udayana approvingly, in his advaitasiddhi. > >Can you specify the text from which he quotes? Atmatattvaviveka. >KusumAnjali seems >to be inconsistent with the philosphical environs of its supposed dating. This is a highly subjective opinion. Without taking into account what kusumAnjali and other texts by its author say, do you really know what his philosophical environs were? And when the author himself gives a date, why should you ignore that? And yes, there is sufficient evidence to say that the same person composed all the texts in question. For a quick review, check the volume on Nyaya-Vaiseshika in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies. Also check the first volume in this series, which gives a bibliography. You will see that significant Buddhists lived and wrote their texts, many centuries after Sankara had come and gone. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Jul 8 02:14:23 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 19:14:23 -0700 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059684.23782.11519426006325867884.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Elst writes, on the book _Deciphered Harappan Script_ (2000): > Jha and Rajaram ...[treat] the > Indus script as a kind of proto-Brahmi, retaining a number of logographs but > mostly already representing sounds rather than objects (kind of like > Japanese). On other of their views, see again their description at: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode.html Thanks for the description, Dr. Elst. Let's cut to the quick: Have Jha/Rajaram *deciphered* the script -- as promised in their title, in online comments, and in book description? If so, it should be easy enough to verify. In their announcements, you can almost hear the roll of drums and the horns blaring: > Dr. Natwar Jha...is one of the world's foremost Vedic scholars > and palaeographers who has deciphered the 5000 year-old Indus (Harappan) > script, thereby solving what is widely regarded as the most significant > technical problem in historical research in our time. > The Harappans, who until now had remained a silent enigma, speak to us > again, and speak to us in a language and idiom that we can all comprehend > -- the Vedic.... The Harappans belong to the later Vedic Age. > > Thus, the idea of the birth of Civilization in the river valleys of > Mesopotamia is no longer tenable. The cradle of civilization -- assuming > there was such a thing -- can now be claimed for the Sarasvati Valley. But what I'm most curious about -- as we all are -- is what the deciphered tests *say*. Dr. Elst begins with some needed chronological preliminaries (confirming what is found in the link given above): > The Jha/Rajaram decipherment is set in a chronological framework putting the > Rg-Veda before 3000 BC and the IVC contemporaneous with the Brahmanas, > Upanishads and Sutras. This is a rather ambitious (some might use a more > derogatory term) chronology leading to some problems in the correspondence > with the archaeological evidence, e.g. spoked wheels in the younger parts of > the RV hence by 3500 BC or so, long before their appearance in the > archaeo-record. Some 1500 years before the appearance of spoked wheels in the archaeological record *anywhere* in Eurasia, I should add -- not just in India! Thereafter, in the second millennium, spoked wheels on chariots pop up everywhere in Eurasia: Central Asia, Northern Europe, Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, all within a couple of hundred years. And, of course, in the RV as well. The Jha/Rajaram dating of the RV to 1500 years or so *before* spoked chariots appeared anywhere in the world does indeed lead to "some problems" in the archaeological record. Even more deadly: They can't solve this problem by adjusting their dates, since their position commits them *absolutely* to the RV coming *before* Harappan (as Dr. Elst presents it, going back to "3500 BCE or so"). It also commits them absolutely, since it is essential to their decipherment, to the "language of the Brahmanas, Upanishads and Sutras" being contemporaneous with Harappan culture (as they date it -- which means *damn* early). This is because their decipherment depends on a tight correspondence between the sounds of Harappan and "the language of the Brahmanas, Upanishads, and Sutras." If they adjust their chronology to fit the archaeological record -- their whole enterprise collapses immediately. And, obviously, their chronology for these texts *is* off by 2000 years or so (!) if we accept normal datings for these texts. Tough row to hoe. Continuing along similar lines: I'm extremely puzzled by the phrase "the language of the Brahmanas, Upanishads, and Sutras." I'm a comparative historian, not a Sanskritist or Vedicist -- so this question might be terribly naive -- but weren't there pretty *major* shifts in Sanskrit in the time between these three categories of texts? If so, wouldn't the identification of Harappan sounds with different *stages* of "the language of the Brahmanas, Upanishads, and Sutras" by Jha/Rajaram-- allowing them potentially to associate one inscription with one stage, or another with another, as convenient -- give them a way to force a given inscription to say a number of different things? I don't know the answer to this question. I defer to the Vedic Sanskrit experts on the List. The fact that not many of the known inscriptions can be assigned exact dates makes things even more convenient. Be that as it may, obviously chronology is going to be the Achilles heel of the claimed "decipherment" of Harappan of Jha/Rajaram. If their dating of "Late Vedic" is off -- and a lot of evidence from the history of technology (e.g., re spoked chariots, which are referred to even more frequently in Vedic texts *after* the RV than in the RV itself) suggests it is off by a long shot -- they are finished. And already the sounds of those drum rolls are getting weaker. This may not be a very long discussion after all. Dr. Elst raises a very key issue: > An obvious weak point is that several sounds have > more than one sign representing them, though care was taken to avoid cases > where two such "allographs" appear on the same seal. On the contrary, from the point of view of claiming that you have "deciphered" the script, this could be viewed as another "strong" and not "weak" point -- since it would again give you extra degrees of freedom in forcing any inscription. Since the number of signs is very large, and the number of sounds is rather small, any would-be decipherer following this method would again have the freedom to drag a wide spectrum of meanings out of *any* inscription. Along these lines, I know a prominent Sanskritist (unnamed at his insistence) who claims that he can "prove" using such methods that IVC is Old Norse or Old English!! I've repeatedly him to post his proof in Indology, but he refuses -- waiting I suspect for the suspense to mount before making his grand announcement. Minor digression suggested by comparative evidence: In 1489, the Italian syncretist/philologist/theologian Pico della Mirandola used a method not unrelated to this one to drag out secret Christian messages from Hebrew texts (planning to use these to convert the Jews). He started with the first word in the Hebrew Torah: "Bereshit." Pico showed that if you applied certain rules given to us by God -- as flexible as the sound rules apparently found in Jha/Rajaram -- you could spy in that word the following Christian-Kabbalistic message: "The Father, in the Son and through the Son, the Beginning and End or Rest, created the Head, the Fire, and the Foundation of the Great Man with a good pact." Pico convinced a lot of people at the time too: This is a true story. Back to the main track. Dr. Elst: Rather than getting hung up on high-level issues in Jha/Rajaram, for the purposes of discussion could we make things as empirical as possible? I propose that we pick a famous Harappan text and see what Jha/Rajaram do with it. What does the great "Dholavira 'signboard'" -- which Jha/Rajaram claim to decipher in Part II, Chapter 6, of their book -- say? Let's break this down for discussion purposes: 1. What does the Dholavira inscription say, according to Jha/Rajaram? 2. How exactly do they derive their reading? 3. What alternate readings are possible in their system (arising from the "many degrees of freedom" point raised above? 3. How do they interpret each of the characters, determinatives (if relevant), etc.? Getting at that question -- and leaving aside, for now, the thorny chronology issue, to which we can return -- we should be able to get at their deeper principles. An image of the Dholavira inscription that we can all work from is found at: http://www.harappa.com/seal/14.html In anticipation - my best to all, Steve Farmer PS. I'll leave aside from the discussion the fact that Michael Witzel has already announced his reading of the Dholavira billboard. Witzel unveiled it in a dramatic post on this List a few days ago. According to MW -- which I freely reinterpret --the billboard contains a warning to Indologists who enter the Dreaded Halls of Harappan Decipherment: "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"! From Mother India, via OIT, apparently, the inscription traveled to Italy and ended up in Dante's Inferno 3.9. :^) From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Jul 8 02:54:47 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 19:54:47 -0700 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059685.23782.10988832184792050556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In rereading my recent analysis, I realize that one comment in it may be incorrect. That doesn't change the general analysis, however. I wrote: > Dr. Elst raises a very key issue: > > > An obvious weak point is that several sounds have > > more than one sign representing them, though care was taken to avoid cases > > where two such "allographs" appear on the same seal. > > On the contrary, from the point of view of claiming that you have > "deciphered" the script, this could be viewed as another "strong" and > not "weak" point -- since it would again give you extra degrees of > freedom in forcing any inscription. Since the number of signs is very > large, and the number of sounds is rather small, any would-be > decipherer following this method would again have the freedom to drag > a wide spectrum of meanings out of *any* inscription. My comment would only be correct if the same sign could refer to different sounds at different times. The situation would be different -- but still muddled -- if multiple signs referred *unambiguously* to single sounds. Dr. Elst: Could you clarify which is the case in Jha/Rajaram? Steve Farmer From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Jul 8 01:16:46 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 21:16:46 -0400 Subject: Darius' problem and the problem of Harappan signs Message-ID: <161227059682.23782.1942245981143932836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, I enjoyed the references and observations made by Ashok Aklujkar re Indic parallels to Darius' problem. However, since he didn't make an explicit point in his post, beyond teasing some of us, I thought that I should comment on my use of this anecdote from Herodotus. There are two reasons for using it, and neither has to do with any preconception on my part that anything that a Greek says is de facto historical fact [certainly, Herodotus, known as "father of lies" as well as "father of history", sometimes struggled with the difference between 'history' and 'myth']. No, there is no unconscious preference for Greek rationality underlying my choice of this anecdote. Hardly. I know the Greeks well enough not to fall for that myth. No, the Herodotus anecdote is well known and frequently enountered in handbooks dealing with the development of writing systems, because it clearly illustrates the transition from 'object writing', wherein objects are directly used as signs, and pictography, wherein pictures of objects are used as signs. It is a good illustrative example of a commonly encountered phenomenon in the history of writing systems. The point is to show the severe limitations of pictography when it comes to communicating with precision the full range of human thought. In the history of writing systems, this limitation has had to be overcome over and over again. And that is the first reason why I have resorted to it. The second reason is that the message which the Scythians were said to send to Darius consisted of a sequence that consisted of eight objects [a bird, a mouse, a frog, and five arrows], which is the typical length of an IVC message [sometimes longer, say, 12 signs, maximum of 21, if I recall]. Now, maybe it is a bit of a fudge to count the five arrows as five separate signs. Okay. Maybe the sequence consists only of five signs [bird, mouse, frog, arrow, plus the number sign]. In any case, I found the anecdote appropriate because its length is roughly that of the typical IVC sequence. In short, I wanted to call attention to the brief and enigmatic nature of IVC sign sequences. And that's all. Best, George Thompson From jehms at KABELFOON.NL Fri Jul 7 19:50:16 2000 From: jehms at KABELFOON.NL (Erik Hoogcarspel) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 21:50:16 +0200 Subject: European contacts with India Message-ID: <161227059670.23782.9962176165106754634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: Dr Fosse wrote: > Why do we have to suppose a flow of ideas in the connection with > skepticism? Skeptics have been found everywhere, I believe, since times > immemorial. True but there are quite specific features of Pyrrhonism and Madhyamika in common over and above mere skepticism that have led to the theory that there was some sort of direct contact. There was an article in the Philosophy East & West sometime in the 80s which went into this in detail. My back numbers are all in storage so I regret I can't give you the exact reference. I see three possible objections 1. The Greek-Roman skeptic tradition claims to stand on his own feet 2. their skeptic arguments are alike but not the same as Nagarjuna's, they have a distinct flavor and form 3. it's an unnecessary hypothesis and so must be cut by Occams razor I agree with Dr Fosse: it's very unlikely that only Indian philosophers could come up with the idea of skepticism. We know that many older Greek philosophers (PE the sofists) already had caught the drift and it's a very logical reaction against Platonic dogmatism. Regards Erik Hoogcarspel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 8 05:25:39 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 22:25:39 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059687.23782.2736640067343392180.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: ..> > Also, some faunal names which sound rather > Austro-Asiatic viz., kuraGku (rhesus monkey), The Madras University Tamil Lexicon groups the meaning of 'monkey' for kuraGku in an entry based on the sense of curvature. There is a verb "kuragku" meaning "to bend/curve" derived from the root kur- for curvarure; other words in the sense of curl from the same root are kuruL, kural etc. [Cf. English crook, curl, curve etc.] --- kuragku-tal otl kuragku-tal kuragku-tal 01 1. to bend, incline; 2. to droop, wither; 3. to hang down, dangle; 4. to repose, rest, lie; 5. to dimish; 6. to relent, grieve, feel sorry kuragku otl kuragku kuragku 02 1. bending, inclining; 2. monkey, ape; 3. bristly bryony; 4. hook, clasp, line, in jewelry ---- Maybe it is to with the dropping apperance of the monkey. Regards P.Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Fri Jul 7 20:50:27 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 22:50:27 +0200 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059678.23782.15428483574836332545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Friends, more on the Jha/Rajaram decipherment. First some more preliminary remarks. There are already a dozen or so Sanskritic decipherments of the Indus script, mostly by Indians who mostly read it as partly remainder-logographic but largely already syllabic or alphabetic, vaguely proto-Brahmi. In the last decade, all authors concerned have been subscribers to the OIT, but in earlier decades this may have been different (there have been many AIT-to-OIT conversions, e.g. among non-decipherers the linguist SS Misra and the archaeologist BB Lal). There are two by Germans, one of them pen-named Ushanas, and both reading it as entirely logographic; in my opinion far too spiritualistic, typically the work of New-Agers who read their favourite themes into it. And there is one by a Portuguese Sorbonne-based scholar Jos? Calazans, who has a publishing contract with OUP though for some reason the publication has so far failed to materialize; he is contract-bound not to show his finished product. His position is that the Aryans originated in Central Asia and invaded India before the IVC floruit, becoming one among several constituent populations of the IVC; their Vedic religion (possibly represented by the famous "priest-king") was distinct from an existing Harappan shamanic religion of which traces are visible on the seals, e.g. priest(esse)s with animal headgear. All the same, in his view Sanskrit was the dominant IVC language and the one represented on the seals. The Jha/Rajaram decipherment is set in a chronological framework putting the Rg-Veda before 3000 BC and the IVC contemporaneous with the Brahmanas, Upanishads and Sutras. This is a rather ambitious (some might use a more derogatory term) chronology leading to some problems in the correspondence with the archaeological evidence, e.g. spoked wheels in the younger parts of the RV hence by 3500 BC or so, long before their appearance in the archaeo-record. The OIT need not push it that far, witness Shrikant Talageri's approach of not pinning himself down on any absolute chronology, and in debate being provisionally willing to put the RV's later sections in the end period of the IVC (he also keeps the Mahabharata war in the mid-2nd millennium as against Rajaram's 3139 BC). Yet, like Talageri and like presumably most participants on this list, Jha and Rajaram claim that in their chronology they merely go where the evidence is taking them. In casu, the texts on the seals as they understand them correspond contentswise with the late-Vedic/Sutra period, and are read with a close eye on the cultural or "literary" background. The point here is not whether the IVC or Vedic society was literate or not; whether the Upanishads etc. were passed on orally or written down. Either way, they certainly were alive and influential in NW-Indian society at some point. Jha and Rajaram claim that the Harappan seals were not commercial documents but were religious in nature, hence the fortunate (too fortunate?) situation that contentswise they have a lot in common with the largely religious Vedic corpus. Leaving aside the remaining logographic signs, the phonetic mainstream of the script would be most comparable with the Semitic scripts. There is an initial vowel sign, like the Aleph, which can represent any vowel: this is the omnipresent jar sign. Vowels following consonants are generally not written, so one consonant signs can be read as ka, kaa, ke, ki etc. There is a distant influence from Rao here: he had based his initial guesswork about the sound value of the signs on their look-alikes in the Phoenician script rather than in Brahmi, on the assumption that the Phoenician script (appearing in the mid-2nd millennium) was, so to speak, the eldest daughter of the Indus script, in some ways closer to it than the younger Ashokan Brahmi. Quite a number of letters retain the values which had been assigned to them by Rao or by other Indian authors who based their readings on similarities with Brahmi. Thus, the crab is [ma], the 5-stroke standing man is [ra] or [R] (no Paninian fine phonetic distinctions yet), the standing fish is [sha] (also "100", sha-tam), the same standing fish with a little roof overhead is [shri]. An obvious weak point is that several sounds have more than one sign representing them, though care was taken to avoid cases where two such "allographs" appear on the same seal. The direction of writing is not fixed, though more often left-to-right than the reverse, and boustrophedon occurs in the not-so-numerous seals containing more than one line of text. Jha and Rajaram also claim that in many cases, the picture and the text on a seal correspond directly or obliquely, somewhat like in heraldry where the motto and the picture sometimes match (e.g. the coat-of-arms of the Dutch province of Zealand shows a lion rising from the waves, with the obliquely related motto "Luctor et emergo", "I wrestle and come out on top"). I'll collect some examples over the weekend. All the best, K. Elst From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Fri Jul 7 20:53:43 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Fri, 07 Jul 00 22:53:43 +0200 Subject: Date of Udayana Message-ID: <161227059675.23782.17392725588090289681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > I'm sorry. I'm not particularly strong with the rules which govern > transliteration. I just spelt the name the way I thought it would sound. You *do* realize, I hope, that in connection with dating Indian philosophers, some of which may have quite similar or even identical names, spelling according to one's own sentiments is the best way to end up in utter confusion ... > And also according to Indological opinion Buddhism was already on the wane > by the time of Shankara. The last great Buddhist philosophers - > SAntarakshita and Kamalasila were either earlier or at best, comtemporaries > of Shankara. These two were by no means the last great Buddhist philosophers around. For Udayana, in fact, his elder contemporary JJAnazrImitra, at least some of whose works were composed before Udayanas', was much more important. It is in this context worth noting that JJAnazrImitra authored a lengthy treatise called "IzvaravAdaH", which covers about 80 pages in Anantalal Thakur's edition of J's works (Patna 1987, 2nd ed.). I don't know whether Udayana takes up any specific arguments from JJAnazrI in this context, but he is certainly known to have reacted against J's arguments on other subjects. At any rate, there is no reason why Udayana in his historical environment should not have felt compelled to write a treatise that aims to establish the existence of Izvara. Whether, in doing so, he proposed any substantially new arguments, or whether in fact his (presumably largely Buddhist) opponents had managed to come up with substantially new arguments against the notion of an Izvara in the first place, is of course a different subject-matter. But the assessment of novelty of arguments has got nothing to do with dating. For more on Udayana's arguments concerning the notion of a god, you might want to take a look at George Chemparathy's "An Indian Rational Theology, Introduction to Udayana's NyAyakusumaJjali" (Vienna 1972) - unless, of course, your questions are already based on that work. > It is just that the philosophical flavor of KusumAnjali seems > to be inconsistent with the philosphical environs of its supposed dating. Only if one takes an incomplete and narrow view on what constitute its "philosophical environs". > So the main question seems to be whether the author of KusumAnjali is the > same as the author of Atmatattvaviveka. So are there internal references in > the works themselves, which assert this? Before answering a question like this, one would wish that you point to more solid grounds to actually *doubt* that this is the case, and that you indicate *concrete* evidence that lead you to doubt a common authorship of these works, other than just a faint idea or suspicion. As far as I can see, only someone who is quite unfamiliar with Udayana, his works and the study thereof would come up with such a question. Regards, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Sat Jul 8 07:09:55 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 00:09:55 -0700 Subject: [Re: [European contacts with India]] Message-ID: <161227059692.23782.16757550932868712526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: Of course, the author does not make any claims but suggests that IF there were any -- a possibility which he does not rule out -- the flow must have been from the West. Don't you think that any claim, McEvilley's or whosoever's, without proof, is another name for pUrvAgrahaH [prejudice or predisposition]? ahetuH pakSapAto yaH tasya nAsti pratikriyA Best wishes. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Jul 8 01:02:33 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 02:02:33 +0100 Subject: [European contacts with India] Message-ID: <161227059680.23782.4781003142363464944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Jogesh Panda wrote: Could you be referring to the following articles ? a) Early Greek Philosophy and Maadhyamika, Thomas McEvilley, Philosophy East and West, 31,2, [1981]; and b) Pyrrhonism and Maadhyamika, Thomas McEvilley, Philosophy East and West, 32,1,[1982]. ********** Yes, especially item B. > These papers illustrate the parallelism between two dialectical systems. > No claim is made regarding the direction of flow. Of course, the author does not make any claims but suggests that IF there were any -- a possibility which he does not rule out -- the flow must have been from the West. See especially pp26 -31. He also states that the evidence is suggestive with regards the Madyamika parallels but not conclusive (for obvious reasons). 2. Erik Hoogcarspel wrote: > I see three possible objections > 1. The Greek-Roman skeptic tradition claims to stand on his own feet Yes, agreed. > 2. their skeptic arguments are alike but not the same as Nagarjuna's, > they have a distinct flavor and form. However, the article mentioned above describes a number of striking features in common. I suggest you have a quick look at it if possible -- personally, I am agnostic in this respect though I find the hypothesis intriguing. > 3. It's an unnecessary hypothesis and so must be cut by Occams razor. But fact is often stranger than fiction and does not always fit well with our preconceptions of what ought to be the case. Events in the real world often tend to be rather more fuzzy than William of Ockham would allow. > We know that many older Greek philosophers (PE the sofists) already had caught the > drift and it's a very logical reaction against Platonic dogmatism. Neither I nor McEvilley suggests the likelihood that the influences, if any, went from East to West -- MacEvilley clearly rejects this hypothesis but he does however contenance the possibility that there was an influence specifically from Pyrrhonist type of scepticism to early Madhyamika. For myself, like Nagarjuna, I have no views on this :) Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 8 12:51:00 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 05:51:00 -0700 Subject: Husking platform, Pestle-and-Mortar sign, and ulUkhala Message-ID: <161227059696.23782.8508410329039467538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Husking platform, Pestle-and-Mortar sign, and ulUkhala ------------------------------------------------------- I) Husking Platforms ---------------------- In the bronze age, Harappans built numerous circular platforms which were likely used for husking grain. They are found near buildings that are usually called "granaries". They are available at: 1) http://www.harappa.com/indus/16.html 2) http://www.harappa.com/indus2/158.html These circular platforms usually have a central pit. A wooden mortar has been recovered in one of these while the wood mortars from most of these platforms have withered away due to the passage of time. "The dehusking platforms situated north of the "Coolie lines" consist of five concentric rings of bricks laid on edge around a central hole, which originally contained a wooden mortar. The actual use of the platforms for pounding grain is attested to by bits of straw, husk, charred wheat and husked barley found in them." (p.44, S.R. Rao, Dawn and Devolution of the Indus civilization, Delhi). Because of their obvious importance in the Harappan economy, the owners or supervisors are represented with the IVC signs of a man with a mortar or a mortar-pestle. a) The IVC signs of the mortar and pestle-and-mortar and b) plan view of the circular husking platform are given at: http://home.swbell.net/speri/ganesan/husk.jpg People anywhere between 1-8 could have worked on these platforms singing songs. II) Are they the Vedic ulUkhala? -------------------------------- M. Witzel, Section 1.6, Dravidian in the Middle and Late RV, in Substrate languages in Old IA, EJVS, 5-1, 1999, p. 17 "ulUkhala 1.28 'mortar' DEDR 672 Tam. ulukkai, Kan. olake, Ko.dagu o.lake, and Kota o.lka, o.lkal kal '(stone) mortar', Malto lo_ra 'stone to grind spices' (S. Palaniappan, by letter); EWA I 231 'problematic'; cf. Zvelebil 1990: 79 with lit., Kuiper 1991: 14, 41 'still unexplained', compares loan words with prefix u-; any connection with khala 'threshing floor' RV 10.48.7?". ulUkhala occuring in the RV 1.28 is connected with just the 'pestle' (=tamil "ulakkai" and kannada "olake") alone in the literature. This appears to be incorrect. For example, F. C. Southworth, Lexical evidence for early contacts between IA and Drav., in Aryan and Non-Aryan in India, UMIch, 1978, p. 210, "ulUkhala- 'mortar' (RV) (Thieme [1955]: from *urU-khara- 'having broad khara'; (EWA: wohl dravdisch oder einheimisch) DED 580 Ta. ulakkai 'pestle' SDr.,Kannada." Rather, "ulUkhala" is comprised of two words, which are cognate with the tamil "ural-kaLam"(='mortar-floor'). For "ural", see DED 560; "kaLam" = DED 1160. [Or, "ural-kal"(='mortar-stone')?]. In my view, the cirular husking platforms with a wooden mortar and the corresponding sign in the Indus seals, in crossectional view, were called something close to "uralkaLa/ulUkhala" by the Harappans. This gains strength from the Rgveda occurence and linguistic analysis. Looking forward to your comments. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 8 13:07:14 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 06:07:14 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059699.23782.18124410797927315325.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: > > > > Most rivers flowing in Tamilnadu do not seem to > have > > clear/convincing Tamil etymologies. Names like > vaiyai, > > koLLiTam are evidently phonetic Tamilization of > alien > > sounds. > > I am reminded of the conversation between Nanda > Chandran and Kellner :-)) > Laxmi your considerations may be deemed equally > atmospheric. Mr Chandrasekaran, If you are an expert on Udayana and his works, plse contribute to the thread on Udayana. In any case I don't see the propriety of commenting in this manner on an unrelated conversation between Kellner and Chandran. Now for the merits of your arguments: > What exactly is the basis for suspecting that these > hydronyms are > of alien origin? Because there aren't any etymologies in the scholarly literature. Sure you had offered one or two but imho none of them is convincing. At any rate not one of them addresses *both* stem and affixes. If I were to consider your proposed etymology for noyyal, it still doesn't address the issue of the suffix *al. This is typically an infinitive ending and a verbal noun forming suffix so I wonder what it's doing in a river name. > Given the classical nature of Tamil meanig that a > whole lot of linguistic > elements would have fallen out of favor over the > millenia, So all I understand from your "classical nature of Tamil" is that there is a Tamil etymology but it is hidden from you. Everyone should accept that in all humility, is that it? To me this argument sounds similar to that of Hindutva-vadin's on the Vedic origin of everything in India. > thse are alien wrt > modern Tamil or caGkam era tamil? > You at least have to show due diligence in asserting > a priori that keDilam is > atypical caGkam or post-Cagkam Tamil. There is *no* convincing etymology for most of the river names. Either you have to accept the possibility of a sub-stratum element (standard procedure in the case of hydronomy, toponymy etc) or show due diligence and produce a convincing etymology. There are other reasons why rivernames need not be of Tamil origin some of which are indicated in my previous post. The territorial integrity of modern Tamilnadu is not necessarily threatened just because Tamil is shown to be an incursive language. Unless you have other reasons for stoutly resisting the sub-stratum hypothesis. > > koLLiDam: What is alien about its phonetics? with > the doubled retroflex and -am > suffix, it is as tamil as it gets. Its semantic content is nil. That's why I had called it phonetic Tamilization. Please read my previous post with more care. I do hate repeating myself. Btw koL + iTam should probably mean marketplace. Surely a strange name for a river, wouldn't you think? > My Tamil teacher > said it was a corruption > of > the verbal noun "koLLaDam" = koL + aDam where koL = > to hold, contain; Did your teacher mention how many gallons it will contain? Just joking. Going forward, I'd urge you to put some of these etymologies where the monkey put the nuts and stop and think for yourself :-) > -aDam is > a verbal noun suffix which is out of active usage > for constructing verbal > nouns, For your information, "-aDam" is much more productive as a suffix in everyday Telugu - used even today in conversational language. All the Tamil instances are vague, non-literary or straight away identifiable as relatively late loans esp. from Telugu. > though there are many words employing that suffix in > use: > kaTTaDam (kaTtu + aDam) = building, book binding; Ta. kaTTaDam, kaTTiDam < Te. kaTTaDamu, kaTTiDamu (cf MTL) > note that this word is often > corrupted as kaTTiDam. > oRRaDam (oRRu + adam) = fomentation Ta. oRRaDam < oRRu + -aDam ( colloquial usage cf. MTL) However Te. ottu, ottaDamu (cf DED 859). This is strengthened by another Ta. variant of oRRaDam viz., ottaNAm. It's a plain give away that it's a loan word. > [some other examples not in currency: > cetukkaDam = gem polishing A highly specific term meaning inlay work in jewellery. (Btw, it does not mean gem polishing). I daresay this usage must have been imported along with the artisans who must have come from Telugu country. > karaVaDam = theft] A more interesting word. Glossed by MTL as < Skt karavaTa. The CilappatikAram does have this usage i.e., for a treatise-name "karavaTanUl" (Cil, 16, 180, arumpatavurai). Also DED 1054, kharapaTa, "name of the author of the cora-zAstra, otherwise called karNIsuta" (Cf. MattavilAsaprahasana). A one-off word with no other derivatives. The probability that the suffix -aDam is of Tamil origin is therefore rather low. But in any case I don't think the iTam of KoLLiTAm has anything to with the suffix -aDam. So the river name koLLiTam is unexplained despite your selection of above words (mostly Telugu loans). I see in this a *conspiracy* to cede Trichy district and Coleroon waters to Andhra Pradesh :-). In return no doubt for Krishna waters which they are giving to Madras on account of the karumpeNNai etymology :-) > > > > Not more absurd than the sthalapurANas spun around > the Sanskritization of > taNporunai as tAmraparuni :-)) But "guNDotarA, vaikai" is equally absurd although I'll grant you that it's more picturesque than the average Sanskrit concoction for a mere rivername. Rest in a separate post. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 8 14:55:16 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 07:55:16 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059704.23782.18152772267161984256.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Periannan Chandrasekaran wrote: > > > > Some others like keTilam seem phonetically alien. > > Given Tamil words such as neTil, ceTi etc., what is > alien about > the phonetics of keTilam? A neuter ending for a river name is funny. But take the case of keTi as a stem. MTL gives 5 meanings of which 2 are derived from Telugu, 2 from Urdu and 1 from Sanskrit. As an aside,it may be interesting to see what Burrow's paper on palatalization has to say on this. (cf. Two developments of initial k- in Dravidian, Coll. papers on Drav. linguistics, Annamalai Univ., Annamalainagar, 1968) The rule is stated in the first line of the paper: "Original Dravidian k- is palatalized to c- in Tamil, Malayalam and Telugu when followed by the front vowels i, I, e, E." An exception is also stated: "when the vowels in question are followed by a cerebral consonant, i.e., -T-, -N-, -L-, -z- the palatalization of initial k- does not take place in Tamil and Malayalam.This restriction does not apply to Telugu." He then adds, "The reason for the absence of palatalization in Tamil and Malayalam in the above cases is not far to seek. In Tamil as pronounced today, the vowels i, I, e, E when followed by a cerebral consonant are pronounced in a manner noticeably distinct from the normal. J.R. Firth describes it as a "centralized obscure quality" etc etc ". But Burrow breaks his own exception formulation when he quotes the word ceTi under the regular operation of the rule! So a little closer examination of the exception formulation is required. One notices that Burrow's examples all have a back vowel following the cerebral consonant. (Exceptions being kiLi, kizi). Perhaps in the case of a front vowel following the cerebral consonant, the exception proviso is breached, whence ceTi. Phonetically, "keTilam" seems to be an exception to this too. Wonder what authorities like Bh. Krishnamurti or Zvelebil have had to say on this phenomenon. The balance of probability then is that this is a non Tamil word. In any case, a sensible etymology for this hydronym remains to be developed. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sat Jul 8 09:20:53 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 10:20:53 +0100 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism In-Reply-To: <22.809fd89.2695382a@cs.com> Message-ID: <161227059694.23782.3523501374038545054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members Thank you for the astonishing range of references, which I'm now trying to follow up. It's certainly starting to look as though 16th century European knowledge of Hinduism can *almost* entirely be accounted for through contacts in the Classical period, which were much more extensive than I had supposed. I say *almost* because of the following doubt: what words and categories *could* 15th-16th century Europeans have used in talking about the ideas of, for example, Pico's 1494 visitor. Surely they would have had to use words like "gymnosophists", "metempsychosis" etc while trying to get to grips with them? Is it significant that Bruno coined a new term, "metemphysicosis", for his distinctive view of reincarnation? (Will check reference--I think it's in the Cabala del Cavallo Pegaseo, 1585.) Someone has asked me: what language would Pico and his visitor have used to talk to one another? One theme that seems worthy of exploration is use of the word brahman/brahmin, and its various spellings, to represent brAhmaNa, and the ideas with which its associated. The ancient world used Greek "brachmanes" and variants of this (e.g. brachamae in Latin). For English,the OED doesn't note "brahmin" until 1835, or "brahman" till 1842. Previously, they think, it was always Brachman, Bragman, or Braman. They miss the works of Sir William Jones (d. 1794), who uses Brahmen both as sg. and pl. In any case, the 'h' spellings seem to denote direct contact with India, and knowledge of the languages. A scholar who contacted Steve Farmer through the Renaissance List has pointed out the following: > After 1585, of course, but the inimitable Sir Thomas Browne in > Hydriotraphia (source Nicholas of Damascus, Greek historian, 1st century > B.C.E. (?) as reported by Perucci): > > The Indian Brahmans seemed too great friends unto fire, who burnt > themselves alive, and thought it the noblest way to end their dayes in fire; > according to the expression of the Indian, burning himself at Athens, in his > last words upon the pyre unto the amazed spectators, Thus I make my selfe > Immortall. I've not yet been able to confirm whether this spelling of "brahman" is Browne's or an editor's. The story is the popular one of Calanus, brought to the West by Alexander. On another point, Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: >Look at it this way. It is an unfounded myth, that the Buddhists just packed >their bags and left India for good, after Sankara's time. There is much >evidence for the continued presence of Buddhists in many parts of India, >down to the 13th century or so. Much later than this in the South. At NAgapaTTiNam in Tamil Nadu, metal images of Buddhist subjects continued to be made into the 16th century or even later. See T. N. Ramachandran, The NAgapaTTiNam and Other Buddhist Bronzes in the Madras Museum, Bulletin of the Madras Government Museum, New Series--General Section, Vol. VII, No. 1, Government of Madras, 1965. I agree with the author (p. 54, no. 47) that the Bodhisattva figure (Pl. XVIII no. 1) "can be ranked as a late specimen perhaps of the 17th century A.D.". In any case, many of the works illustrated are clearly no earlier than 14th-16th century. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From mlbd at VSNL.COM Sat Jul 8 06:06:36 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 11:36:36 +0530 Subject: www.newagebooksindia.com Message-ID: <161227059690.23782.15873118872933086768.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly visit www.newagebooksindia.com. This is a new and comprehensive site for books on religion and philosophy. We are in the process of adding all indian publishers' books later this year. Its being updated everyday. Feel free to order Indian books. Please let us have your comments which will help us improving the site. Varun Jain Marketing Deptt -- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel : (011) 3974826; 3911985; 3918335; 3932747 (011) 5795180; 5793423; 5797356 Fax : (011) 3930689; 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com & gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: www.mlbdbooks.com ************************************************************* God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ********************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Jul 8 17:32:16 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 13:32:16 -0400 Subject: Greeks, Romans, and Fossils Message-ID: <161227059713.23782.23374279538812063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is an interesting article at this URL: http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/070400sci-archaeo-greece.html Here is one paragraph from it: Yet much like today's fossil hunters, Ms. Mayor found, ancient Greeks and Romans collected and measured the petrified bones they encountered and displayed them in temples and museums. They, too, recognized fossils as evidence of past life, now extinct, anticipating Cuvier by more than 2,000 years. -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Sat Jul 8 13:59:15 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 14:59:15 +0100 Subject: Darius' problem = the problem of Harappan signs Message-ID: <161227059697.23782.18305094591806915280.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to George Thompson for clarifying his reasons for making a reference to the Darius story. Upon rereading, I do see that my post became a bit too opaque in its last two paragraphs. I certainly did not have GT in mind in writing either of them (thanks anyway for taking my teasing so well). The point I should have explicitly made is that my opening quote from GT tells us what the problem would be if we were to follow the way he was suggesting for understanding the nature or role of Harappan signs. If those signs contained narratives dependent on context, they would not occur the way they have been reported to occur (their combinations, frequency etc.). There will either be a fixity about them (even then how many times is the same or a similar narrative is likely to be contained in archaeological remains?) or we must give up hope of being able to make sense of them (or of any of them) until we chance upon a narrative matching them (or a sequence of them). (Of course, I could not sleep last night, trying to imagine the form in which the narrative would come to us. O God, let it be me!) In short, what I wanted to convey was that GT himself had identified the problem with the possibility he was suggesting. I was going to change the subject heading of my post to "Darius' problem = the problem of Harappan signs" but overlooked to do so. The stories similar to the story about Darius that I summarized were meant to establish that mute objects and silent actions are susceptible to varied interpretations**, that crafty individuals have expoited their ambiguity to different ends, that a type of stories in which crafty individuals are seen so exploiting exists and that the story about Darius is more likely to be a folktale than a historical account. Only the first purpose was directly relevant to the opening quote. ** With such objects and actions, sometimes we get interpretations that have no basis in fact in the sense that they are not at all intended and sometimes we get interpretations that are totally incompatible with each another. The narrative is embedded in the context, not the objects, and its nature is determined by the vagaries of human thinking. An effort to uncover such narratives is not likely to succeed unless we at least have the frame narrative. Now, some scholars may give up access even to the rarest of Tibetan manuscripts to have the frame story of IVC! ashok aklujkar From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Sat Jul 8 15:44:36 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 16:44:36 +0100 Subject: Darius' problem = the problem of Harappan signs Message-ID: <161227059706.23782.15140275588725996601.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In my last post, please read "he was suggesting" as "he was tentatively / provisionally suggesting". I do not wish to leave the impression that I understand GT as making a case for only the 'narrative sign' hypothesis or approach. -- aklujkar From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 8 21:21:30 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 17:21:30 -0400 Subject: Books wanted Message-ID: <161227059715.23782.11028744963746063465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, If any of the members have these books (which I can't find on either the new or used internet book finder services)and would consider selling them then please contact me off the list. 1) An Avesta Grammar in Comparison with the Sanskrit, by A.V. Jackson. 2) The english translation of The Indo-Aryan Languages from the Vedas to Modern Times by Jules Bloch. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 8 21:33:48 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 17:33:48 -0400 Subject: Bibliographic information needed, Virashaivite volume Message-ID: <161227059717.23782.14585407681467225110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Robert Zydenbos identified a volume I was asked to look for as the following. > >This has to be the _;Suunyasa.mpaadane_ of Guu.luura >Siddhaviira.naarya, tr. by various people, 5 vols., Dharwad: >Karnatak University, 1965-1972. But I'm afraid it's out of print. > > I have been now asked to try to locate and purchase a used set of this. If any of the members can help me then please contact me. Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sat Jul 8 17:00:22 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 18:00:22 +0100 Subject: [Re: [European contacts with India]] Message-ID: <161227059711.23782.6585779747215908907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jogesh Panda wrote: Don't you think that any claim, McEvilley's or whosoever's, without proof, is another name for pUrvAgrahaH [prejudice or predisposition]? ********* I don't recall making any claims nor does McEvilley as far as I can see. But no, I would call this a hypothesis which then needs to be tested and evaulated. If the facts -- no matter how surprising -- fit, then it can be provisionally accepted. If not, then it remains a hypothesis which can be discarded if shown to be completely false. To my mind, it is just as much a prejudice to dismiss any hypothesis without contrary proof as it it to assert a claim without proof. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jul 8 14:29:18 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 19:59:18 +0530 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059701.23782.12845385364604180424.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can any one give me the email address of Professor Herman Kulke, University of Kiel, germany? D.N. Jha Professor of History University of Delhi Email: dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 9 04:44:51 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 21:44:51 -0700 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059724.23782.18316979740737491300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Elst wrote: > >An obvious weak point is that several sounds have > >more than one sign representing them, though care was taken to avoid cases > >where two such "allographs" appear on the same seal. Michael Witzel wrote: > Now that's already the *third* major ambiguity, added to those pointed out above. > And the one which finally destroys the "system" altogether. I suggest that we let Dr. Elst post and explain in detail the Jha/Rajaram decipherment of the Dholhira sign, as previously suggested. Any and all flaws in their system can be analyzed easily enough once we have some empirical evidence in front of us. I'm personally damn curious to see how a "Late Vedic" Sanskrit text is drawn from a third millennium inscription! http://www.harappa.com/seal/14.html From venkitesh at ETH.NET Sat Jul 8 16:28:26 2000 From: venkitesh at ETH.NET (Venkiteshwaran) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 21:58:26 +0530 Subject: HISTORY OF INDIAN CHEMISTRY Message-ID: <161227059708.23782.6692272204002615762.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members i attach herewith a draft paper on 'History of Indian Chemistry' for your comments and suggestions regards muthulakshmy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: chemistry.doc Type: application/msword Size: 50176 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 9 03:56:33 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 08 Jul 00 23:56:33 -0400 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! In-Reply-To: <001101bfe855$0110b6c0$0b0fe0d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <161227059719.23782.6287482586385208226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Granted that all below is very preliminary since we only have K.Elst's brief report and the book announcement by N. Jha and Rajaram, a few points stick out, like the proverbial sore thumbs. Following the major points of Elst's summary: >The Jha/Rajaram ... in a chronological framework putting the >Rg-Veda before 3000 BC ... correspond contentswise with >the late-Vedic/Sutra period, ... read with a close eye on the cultural or >"literary" > background... Let's simply forget this as it has little bearing on the reading of a script which was used from 3300/2600 BCE- c. 1900 BCE by people(s) speaking (an) unknown language(s). All of the above is interpretation of data that would first have to be shown to have been deciphered correctly. >Jha and Rajaram claim that ... seals were not commercial documents >but were religious in nature, hence ... contentswise they have a lot in >common with the largely > religious Vedic corpus. Again, a presuppostion that is not allowed. Some complex seal impressions (36 times) were made out of a combination of several seals; some such impressions have cloth marks on the back side. Obviously, to mark [goods] enveloped in cloth. Second, (large) vessels stamped or written on: is that religious? Looks more like administration in any comparative 3 millennium framework. All of this aside, let's look at the script itself: >Leaving aside the remaining logographic signs, -- that would certainly mean some 3/4 of the signs which appear only 1x... >the phonetic mainstream of >the script would be most comparable with the Semitic scripts. The theoretical question is where to draw the line for a (Semitic) alphabet. Signs used more than 10 x through the Indus Civ. at all times come to c. 100, those used more than 20 x come to c. 80 signs. Nice, for an Indian style alphabet? Nope. Even the ten-fifteen most common signs include some that have clear "diacritics". Let's use Chinese style nick names for them. From the most common one down: 855x found : rimmed jar 322 : small Roman ' ' (there also are full length signs such as ||, see below ) 194 : simple vessel V 187 : simple fish sign with two downward fins 179 : fish with two horns on head 159 : arrow sign, with bottom of arrow head closed 149 : 5-pronged comb, prongs turned right 140 : Roman | | | 127 : fish with circumflex roof ^ on head 127 : rounded off rhombus with v inserted in upper part 125 : six-spoked 'wheel' (more rhombus-like!) 125: `/ type, closer to a Y 117: fish with - stroke through body 116: Trishula (Y with inserted ' ) 115: Roman | | Note that no.s 187x, 179x, 127x, 117x are "diacritical" versions of each other. (More cases among the signs with frequencies a little lower than these). We now apply our knowledge of Skt., Vedic or other, and if the IV language were any form of Sanskrit, as with Rajaram/Jha, these signs would be, based on rounded off Skt. sound frequencies, roughly: 855 would be: a (20%) 322 = aa =8% 194 = t =7% 187 = r =5% 179 = v =5% 159 = i =4.8% 149 = n =4.8% 140 = m =4.3% 127 = y =4.2% 127 = s =3.5% 125 = d =2.8% 125 = u =2.6% 117 = p =2.4% 116 = k =2% 115 = bh =1.3% (This is just frequency order. The Skt. %s obviously do not make for a close fit with the actual %, just with the frequency of the Indus signs. First hurdle. -- Anyhow, now, start reading!!!) Result : 187 = r, 179 v , 127 y , 117 k would be phonetically related???? (or try any other permutation r, R, RR, L, LL, ...???) Not possible at all. Or read the Dholavira inscription.... http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/html/Corpusmain.htm (scroll down just once) which has: crab - spoked wheel (d) - spoked wheel (d) - ' - ^ - empty rhombus - spoked wheel (d) - pipal leaf with projections - square on pole - spoked wheel (d). These are *not* the most common characters, -- for the reading of which one would have to marshal the rest of the Skt. alphabet not covered by the above 15 signs... (e.g., all e, o, R vowels. None of the most common, Skt. a, aa). Sounds good? Nope. Or, you can read, with a slight reversal of above list, if you like it better: a Paninean succession of u | uu | uuu. In other words, early grammar. That is certainly what I would put on my city wall! Much better than the recently broadcast version (I forget by whom, information overload, no one can keep up any more with all these decipherments!), which ran roughly: "I have driven off all horse thieves!" As for non-alphabetic signs, such as the svastika character: it is omnipresent in many parts of the Old World. I like the interpretation given to it in Ghana best: "monkeys feet"! So much for reading any unknown symbols, characters and signs. BB Lal (1997: 214) tells us: "Let us continue to be optimistic." -- Rather, I say: lasciate ogne speranza! {{ I overlooked until just now that S. Kak, Cryptologica XII, 3 , 1988, 129-143, has taken a statistical approach, similar to mine above, but then taking a completely different turn, identifying some of the signs with those of the Brahmi script, while on the other hand, taking some of the most common signs as case endings (arrow, rimmed vessel etc.). One would guess that the wide margin allowed here would result in any desired interpretation, and indeed: no surprise! These are Skt. inscriptions... Of course, the table just given above has no resemblence to Kak's. Note the interview of Kak at: http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/nov/18inter.htm }} The procedure shows, as always, that changing one assumption will lead to a completely different "decipherment". And then, as always, comes the leap of faith plus secondary assumptions to make things work out... In other words: No inscription has been read yet. (Of course, I have my own "decipherment" : not Norse or English, but --you guessed it-- Munda. Such as, on one tablet: "to be given to the chief queen!" Do you think I will publish it? Naaah! Continuing with Elst's summary: >There is an initial vowel sign, like the Aleph, which can represent any >vowel: this is >the omnipresent jar sign. Not very practical in any alphabet, unless the initial vowel represents one preceded by glottal stop (found in certain languages before any vowel but not in Skt.!), -- which then, by necessity, has to be followed by a separate vowel sign. Otherwise, even in English (which has such stops), a phonetically written sentence such as: 'think'lovthi'bavcaen'nlibiirigardid'zmakingnosens is not immediately decipherable. Especially, when words are not separated. If separated, this would read: ' think 'l ov thi 'bav caen 'nli bii rigardid 'z making no sens. Got it this time? > Vowels following consonants are generally not >written, so one consonant signs can be read as ka, kaa, ke, ki etc. Wonderful, so the sentence used above would be: 'thnk'lvth'bvcn'nlbrgrdd'zmkngnsns. The Lord of Dholavira or Harappa would have made the inventor of this alphabet work in the copper mines of the Aravallis for the rest of his rather short natural life. Or, if a Brahmin, have him sent beyond Kaala PaaNi, to Punt. Of course, Rajaram's vowel rule is, again, guesswork. Based on much later Indian scripts but worse than, say, modern Hindi (unspoken a, without halanta marking), or the ambiguities of Urdu script, for that matter. Rajaram's system allows insertion of any vowel, to fit the "decipherment". >Thus, the crab is [ma], this occurs only 33 x (crab turned right) in all of the Indus, too low for Skt. ma = c. 4%. > the 5-stroke standing man is [ra] or [R] only 47 x , too low for r (= 5%) (vowel R has 0.74%) >the standing fish is [sha] (also "100", sha-tam), but see above 187x; r should be much lower than this freqency, at 1.5 %, and not at position 187x. > the same standing fish with a little roof overhead is [shri]. Now, that's cute! But what do do with all the other common fishes, 187 = r, 179 v , 127 y , 117 k ? See above. (Is this = zrImatI, zrImant: Mr., Mrs., Ms., young master,...? zrI zrI for kings, zrI zrI zrI for gods, as in medieval mss???) >An obvious weak point is that several sounds have >more than one sign representing them, though care was taken to avoid cases >where two such "allographs" appear on the same seal. Now that's already the *third* major ambiguity, added to those pointed out above. And the one which finally destroys the "system" altogether. IN SUM: Since we have (at least) some 80 or 100 frequent signs at our disposal, a really bad writing system! Brahmi/Gupta/Nagari does it with c. 50 signs plus the c. one dozen of 'added vowel' signs (always depending on the particular variety of alphabet used at what time, therefore: "circa"). >Jha and Rajaram also claim that in many cases, the picture and the text on a >seal correspond directly or obliquely, somewhat like in heraldry where the >motto and the picture sometimes match Oh well, but there are equally many cases where the *same* written message occurs with another picture and vice versa !! And, typically, all of the above leaves out the likely possibility that other language(s) than Skt. are represented by the IVS ... (see my earlier message on Rgveda loan words). A few notes on the press release separately. Case closed. Next case: Munda tribal writings:) http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/bihar/indus/indus~3.htm Enjoy! ================================== ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 10337 bytes Desc: not available URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 9 08:03:20 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 01:03:20 -0700 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! (correction) Message-ID: <161227059726.23782.17632379913060827895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mea culpa -- by error the link I've been providing doesn't lead to the Dholavira inscription, but to a smaller long inscription. M. Witzel's recent post gives the correct link: Dholavira "signboard": http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/html/Corpusmain.htm (midpage) The other long inscription I gave: http://www.harappa.com/seal/14.html Messages + typo corrected: > K. Elst wrote: > > > >An obvious weak point is that several sounds have > > >more than one sign representing them, though care was taken to avoid cases > > >where two such "allographs" appear on the same seal. > > Michael Witzel wrote: > > > Now that's already the *third* major ambiguity, added to those pointed out above. > > And the one which finally destroys the "system" altogether. > > I suggest that we let Dr. Elst post and explain in detail the > Jha/Rajaram decipherment of the Dholavira sign, as previously > suggested. Any and all flaws in their system can be analyzed easily > enough once we have some empirical evidence in front of us. I'm > personally damn curious to see how a "Late Vedic" Sanskrit text is > drawn from a third millennium inscription! > > http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/html/Corpusmain.htm (midpage) xxxxxxx > What does the great "Dholavira 'signboard'" -- which Jha/Rajaram claim > to decipher in Part II, Chapter 6, of their book -- say? Let's break > this down for discussion purposes: > > 1. What does the Dholavira inscription say, according to Jha/Rajaram? > 2. How exactly do they derive their reading? > 3. What alternate readings are possible in their system (arising from > the "many degrees of freedom" point raised above? > 3. How do they interpret each of the characters, determinatives (if > relevant), etc.? > > Getting at that question -- and leaving aside, for now, the thorny > chronology issue, to which we can return -- we should be able to get > at their deeper principles. > > An image of the Dholavira inscription that we can all work from is > found at: > http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/html/Corpusmain.htm (midpage) Typo also corrected below: From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 9 12:14:26 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 05:14:26 -0700 Subject: Seals in trade Message-ID: <161227059730.23782.14117437024460578345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Ganesan wrote: >Excavations at Lothal have proved that IVC seals were employed >for trade purposes. Sangam poetry in Tamil mentions the use >of seals exactly in this manner. I am interested in knowing about >mention in ancient literature about seals used on the packages >shipped in and out of ports. Any references to seals in Sanskrit >used for trade? Thanks. Do the Buddhist jataka tales mention seals used on large storage jars or as shipment tags on cotton/hemp bales? Sincerley, Prasad ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jul 9 03:55:50 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 09:25:50 +0530 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059722.23782.18310805689257623407.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can any one give me the email address of Professor Herman Kulke, University of Kiel, germany? D.N. Jha Professor of History University of Delhi Email: dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 9 15:07:59 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 11:07:59 -0400 Subject: Harappan Deciphered? DHOLAVIRA In-Reply-To: <001d01bfe98b$df786ac0$0b0fe0d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <161227059733.23782.13081606067023996752.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> So, it was Jha/Rajaram who were talking about "overcoming the thieves...". Where, by Indra, is that web site? The reading and interpretation confirm exactly what I predicted yesterday: If K.Elst's report is complete and he has spelled correctly, I understand it as: "mad-dvaidhaH-raaga-vedhaazvaiH-sahasra-dhaa" which raises a lot of problems... Certainly not "late Vedic": ------------------------------------ K.Elst: >Dholavira signboard acc. to Jha/Rajaram ("late phase of the script, ca. 2000 >BC"): >"mad-dvaidhah-raaga-vedhaashvaih-sahasra-dhaa" >approximately: >"I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my >wealth of horses" --------------------------------- * script As pointed out yesterday: anything goes.... Take the letter/Aksara dh (spoked wheel): it is read as dhaa (2x), dhaH and dvai. [Pseudo-] Voltaire, he say: consonants count little, vowels nothing! The interpretation of the signs makes them a sort of [early] Brahmi or early Semitic (as even a look into Monier Williams dict., intro, will show)... Hardly any change between Jha/Rajaram's 2000 BCE and Asoka... But that's not the point here. Note the confusion between d/dh, and reading ANY vowel with the sign in question.... Maybe the Indologist who wants to read it as O.Norse or English should come forward and add his interpretation and translation now!! * text & translation. I must confess I have many difficulties with this "sentence". Maybe someone can help me out? - wrong sandhi : dvaidhaH + raaga? - I can recognize: mad 'of me, by me' etc.', dvaidha- 'twofold, contest, strife', raaga- 'color, passion', azva- 'horse', and sahasra-dhaa 'thousand-fold', but: vedha- obviously is wrong for Ved. ve'das- (neuter) 'possession' and I miss the '[avaricious] raiders' altogether. And how to put all of this together? At best: 'my strife with horses that are [my] possession of/by/with color/passion(?) 1000x." Or try a Bahuvrihi: my strife with those possessing horses as [their] wealth by/because of [their] passion..." Or, but that would be post-Vedic: my strife with those having obtained horses as [their] wealth by [their] passion..." -raaga 'desire for' at best as SECOND part of a compound: 'longing for' [horses], but where is that compound?? (dvaidhaH?? -- wrong form, and no sense); or with locative, but here we get instrumental: azvaiH. Or maybe Jha/Rajaram took all of the above as one compound? As the hyphens seem to indicate. With wrong Sandhi and case forms? Enough said: All of the above certainly is not Vedic, not even late Vedic: strange compound, wrong word (vedas), also a little long for normal Vedic : raaga-*veda-azva- ?? To arrive at : raaga-vedhaashvaih = "over avaricious raiders desirous of my wealth of horses" needs a lot of un-grammatical twisting --it reads more like English or rather Austronesian, transposed into pseudo-Skt.: "desire - wealth - horses" (is this what they did?) -- and it needs padding of several words not found in the "text". I give up. Maybe an ingenious PaaNinIya can help us out here?? --------------- Now contrast all of this with the modest book announcement: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode.html * Dr. Natwar Jha studied Vedic literature at Shyama Vidyapeeth, Mandar Ashram in Bounsi, Bhagalpur, Bihar. He continued his higher studies in Sanskrit literature at Darbhanga University, and obtained a Ph.D. from Bihar University at Muzaffarpur. He is one of the world's foremost Vedic scholars and palaeographers who has deciphered the 5000 year-old Indus (Harappan) script, thereby solving what is widely regarded as the most significant technical problem in historical research in our time. * Dr. N. S. Rajaram was born in Mysore, India in September 1943. He holds a B.E. degree in Electrical Engineering from B.M.S. College in Bangalore and Ph.D. in Mathematical Sciences from Indiana University in Bloomington, U.S.A. * volume is devoted to the study of the Indus script and its decipherment. It offers a methodology for reading the Indus script by combining paleography with ancient literary accounts and Vedic grammar. * The language of the seals is Vedic Sanskrit, ... * The language is less archaic than that of the Rigveda, and corresponds closely to that of the later Vedic works like the Sutras and the Upanishads. ... * in a language and idiom that we can all comprehend -- the Vedic. * The converse is also true: we now have an archaeological and geographic context for the Vedic Aryans. The Harappans belong to the later Vedic Age. ... ----------- Well, maybe needless to say by now, the last sentence of the announcement gives it all away: * Thus, the idea of the birth of Civilization in the river valleys of Mesopotamia is no longer tenable. The cradle of civilization -- assuming there was such a thing -- can now be claimed for the Sarasvati Valley. Maybe it is time now for K. Elst to remind us of the 15/16th cent. scholar from the Greater Netherlands who had shown that the language of (Christian) paradise, and thus the craddle of (Christian) civilization, was .... Dutch. -=============== ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 6115 bytes Desc: not available URL: From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sun Jul 9 09:55:48 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 11:55:48 +0200 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! (correction) Message-ID: <161227059728.23782.8925177003290152567.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dholavira signboard acc. to Jha/Rajaram ("late phase of the script, ca. 2000 BC"): "mad-dvaidhah-raaga-vedhaashvaih-sahasra-dhaa" approximately: "I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my wealth of horses" Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Sun Jul 9 19:00:23 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 12:00:23 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059738.23782.17683477051707750862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: .. > > > Laxmi your considerations may be deemed equally > > atmospheric. > > Mr Chandrasekaran, > > If you are an expert on Udayana and his works, plse > contribute to the thread on Udayana. In any case I > don't see the propriety of commenting in this manner > on an unrelated conversation between Kellner and > Chandran. Laxmi, I was only trying to borrow the word "atmospheric" to apply to your assertions vis-a-vis Tamil hydronymy and my reproducing the relevant portion from the udayana thread was only to give "credit" to Kellner for that usage and it ended up misconstrued as a commentary on the subject matter of that thread. A case of philology overdone. In any case apologies to the forum for any unintended consequences. > > Now for the merits of your arguments: > > > What exactly is the basis for suspecting that these > > hydronyms are > > of alien origin? > > Because there aren't any etymologies in the scholarly > literature. Sure you had offered one or two but imho > none of them is convincing. At any rate not one of > them addresses *both* stem and affixes. > > If I were to consider your proposed etymology for > noyyal, it still doesn't address the issue of the > suffix *al. This is typically an infinitive ending and > a verbal noun forming suffix so I wonder what it's > doing in a river name. > Not so. -al is very commonly employed in simple noun formation also; it is a very easy to way to coin new words in Tamil by extending existing ones. e.g. DEDR 1418. Ta. kA = forest; kAn2 = jungle; kAn2am = woodland, forest; kAn2al = grove or forest on seashore. -al has been added to kAn2 (which obvioulsy is not a verb) resulting in kAn2al which is neither an infinitive nor a verbal noun. DEDR# 4666: (a) Ta./Ma./Ko. maN = earth, soil, dirt... (b) Ta./Ma./Ka. maNal = sand, gravel Here again -al is employed to form a noun by extending an already existing non-verb. Another example is from the Madars Univ Tamil Lexicon: Ta. nolai n. = (see nolaiyal) Ta. nolaiyal n. = A kind of unleavened cake. Again, nolai a noun is extend with -al to form yet another noun. We can go on. Hence to form a hydronym "noyyal" by extending "noy", a qualitative noun, with -al is perfectly in order. > > Given the classical nature of Tamil meanig that a > > whole lot of linguistic > > elements would have fallen out of favor over the > > millenia, > > So all I understand from your "classical nature of > Tamil" is that there is a Tamil etymology but it is > hidden from you. Everyone should accept that in all > humility, is that it? > A bit of humility, yes. Given the classical nature of Tamil you would find many linguistic features fallen into disuse and, phonetic features found in hydronyms, as old as they are, can indeed be quite alien even to a well informed modern researcher. So we must first seek to explain the river names within the realm of Dravidian phonetics, to paraphrase Witzel. And anybody embarking on such a mission must make sure in their due diligence that they do not miss such obvious and common linguistic features of Dravidian as usage of -al. Rest in a separate post. With thanks and warm regards, P.Chandrasekaran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 9 21:50:34 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 14:50:34 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059742.23782.16639098930511566711.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Witzel wrote: <<< Obviously, when trying to etymologize S. Indian river names we have to try all Dravidian possibilities, -- within the realm of probability. River names are preferably taken from the color, speed, shape of rivers, but also from many other concepts than can be associated with rivers. When I -jokingly- refered to "palm tree" rivers recently (and last year), I did not have access to K.H. Pinnow's Berlin dissertation (unprinted) on Indian River names. (1951). Among the many hundreds of river names, he has a list of some 30 rivers based on tree names (there also are those based on flowers, lotus especially, grass, reed, sugar cane, pepper,and some other plants). The tree names (how could I forget the plakSa-born Sarasvatii?) include: * fig trees (plakSa, udumbara, pippala) * sandal wood (candana) * rose apple (jambu) * 'wine palm' (tAladhvajI, varuNatAlI, haritAla) * other trees: betel nut, palAza, kadamba, rohitaka, zalmali >>> Thanks for giving rivers named after the plant or plant products from the Pinnow dissertation. A river in Coimbatore district goes by the name kAJciyARu where "kAJci" is the river portia tree. Its other name is noyyal river. On the kAJci river bed, several archaeological finds dating first centuries CE exist. A famous site is koTumaNal village (K. Rajan, Archaeology of Western Kongu, Delhi), this village is the koDumaNam mentioned in the CT text, patiRRuppattu. Noyyal has to do with the fine nature of sand on this river banks. Two famous places named after plants: KAnchipuram is named after "kacci" - a (thorny) bush plant, also called as "kaJci". CT and Tevaram call the kAnchipuram as kacci-p-pETu only. I read that A. C. Burnell mentions the sanskritization of this kacci/kaJci into kAnchi (Has to track down the reference). Tradition in Tamil literature celebrates three Shiva sites associated with the "marutu"(Skt. arjuna) tree. They are at 1) Srisailam 2) tiru-iTaimarutu-uur (madhyArjunam) in Thanjavur dist. 3) tiru-puTaimarutu-uur (puTArjunam) in Tinnevelly dist. Vijayanagar Nayaks renovated/donated grants many times to the arjuna stalams in TN. I think the iizvara at Srisailam could have been something like Lord of "white" marutu (in tamil, veNmarutu) tree. This original meaning is lost when the Goddess of Sriparvatham gets the name, bhramarAmbA and Shivanandalahari has a shlokam telling the goddess as a bee encircles the lord who is jasmine! This is different from Tamil (and Sanskrit?) sangam poetry where only male bees go around to flowers to take honey, jiving with the socital norm that women only were expected to maintain marital piety. A. K. Ramanujan was surprised to learn this (after he translated mallikArjuna as Lord of the White Jasmine!). The arjuna tree connection is lost due to Sanskritization. Something like folk tradition explaining beLagAvi/Belgaum (< vELagrama) as "village of mallige". Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU Sun Jul 9 20:10:26 2000 From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 15:10:26 -0500 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059740.23782.7448066144751178858.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is Prof Kulke's address: Prof. Dr. H. Kulke Abteilung fuer Geschichte Philosophische Fakultaet Universitaet Kiel Kiel Germany Professor D N Jha wrote: > Can any one give me the email address of Professor Herman Kulke, > University of Kiel, germany?D.N. JhaProfessor of HistoryUniversity of > DelhiEmail: dnjha at del2.vsnl.net.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 9 23:08:17 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 16:08:17 -0700 Subject: Harappan Horse Thieves! (Decipherment Debunked) Message-ID: <161227059746.23782.7483649032397516791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Elst writes, of the long-awaited decipherment of Harappan by Jha/Rajaram: > Dholavira signboard acc. to Jha/Rajaram ("late phase of the script, ca. 2000 > BC"): > > "mad-dvaidhah-raaga-vedhaashvaih-sahasra-dhaa" ... approximately: > > "I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my > wealth of horses" I couldn't at first figure out why Dr. Elst offered this minimalist post and so abruptly left the scene, since he was asked for data on *how* the Dholavira sign was deciphered. That data would have given us an empirical foundation for detailed discussion of the methodology of Jha/Rajaram. And that in turn would have allowed a fair test of the validity of their decipherments -- something that Dr. Elst himself first asked for in this List. Then swifter than the Ashvins' chariot, a thought came to me -- and I understood why Dr. Elst posted and ducked for cover. He *must* have known that someone would soon point out the obvious: One of the Achilles heels of Out-of-India theories (OIT) -- at least the type that Drs. Rajaram and Jha and Kak and Kalyanaraman endorse, placing the Rigveda *before* Harappa -- is the mass of evidence in the RV for horses and spoked wheels and and lightweight two-wheeled chariots and razor-tires and ratha-carriers and so on, when compared with the total *lack* of evidence for such things in Harappa. (No spoked chariots showed up *anyplace* in Eurasia before around 2000 BCE, in fact. Quickly thereafter they popped up all over the place -- from Central Asia to Egypt to China.) Solution? Come up with a amazingly flexible "decipherment system" -- linguistically deconstructed by Michael Witzel in his last posts -- that provides evidence of "avaricious raiders" defeated "a thousand times" by the Harappans when those raiders tried to steal IVC's "WEALTH of horses": > "I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my > wealth of horses" It was an accident that I asked specifically for Jha/Rajaram's decipherment of the Dholavira inscription. And, by chance, by asking for it, I hit the methodological jackpot. Recall that this inscription was supposedly written (but see M. Witzel's debunking in his last post) in "Late Vedic" Sanskrit -- the Sanskrit of the Suutras, which Patrick Olivelle, for one, using external and internal evidence, dates in his recent book on the Dharmasuutras to the last third of the first millennium BCE (see Olivelle 1999: xxv ff.). This is, of course, a minimum of nearly 2000 years *after* the dating of Jha/Rajaram. There surely is scholarly disagreement over *exact* dating of the Suutras, but the documents can be dated easily enough to the last half of the first millennium BCE by comparing the Sanskrit found in them with other, more easily datable, sources -- as well by other kinds of evidence cited by Olivelle. Unless, of course, it is an unquestionable matter of unquestionable OIT Faith for you that the Suutras *must* be of hoary antiquity. If that's the case, a large arsenal of traditional exegetical strategies or reconciliative hermeneutical techniques can be invoked to help you "save" your thesis. On some of these, see the cross-cultural study by my collaborator John B. Henderson, _Scripture, Canon, and Commentary: A Comparison of Confucian and Western Exegesis_ (Princeton University Press, 1991). John doesn't deal in that book with Vedic exegesis, but the same techniques were used in India nonetheless. The exegetical methods of religious commentators are strikingly similar, varying within known and definable limits. For now let's leave this question (of a mere 2000 years!) aside, and look at sources of ambiguity in Jha/Rajaram that let you draw virtually *any* text that you want out of any inscription. As Dr. Elst has indicated in his posts, *single* symbols are read in different ways by Jha/Rajaram in different inscriptions. Moreover, the same *vowel* symbol can be read differently even in a *single* inscription. This gives you more than enough flexibility so that you can derive almost *anything* that you want out of any inscription -- even perhaps the English or Old Norse readings claimed by my unnamed Sanskritist friend. To my unnamed Sanskritist friend, who I know is listening in: Please post your decipherment before it is too late! Or, if you are an OITer, you can generate with your flexible methods "avaricious horse thieves" defeated "a thousand times" when they foolishly try to steal away the "wealth of horses" owned by the heroic Harappans. Were these horse thieves really Aryan invaders from the Northwest -- much denied by OIT proponents -- reappearing in a new guise? The revival by Jha/Rajaram of avaricious invaders might be used to explain why no evidence is found in Harappa of horses: No seal emblems of horses, no horse pictograms, no horse iconography, no toy horses in wood or bronze or clay -- niente affatto. (And cf. here the copious comparative evidence of this sort in premodern Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, Greece, elsewhere.) Was all evidence of horses secreted away by the Harappans to protect them from the avaricious horse thieves of unknown origins? (Were horses in this case = a carefully guarded military secret?) To recall different parts of Dr. Elst's earlier, and extremely helpful, summary of the methods of Jha/Rajaram: There are four major sources of ambiguity in Jha/Rajaram that let you pull just about any text that you need out of any inscription (reminding me of Giovanni Pico's infamous method, which I noted in an earlier post, of evoking Christian Truths out of Hebrew Scriptures 500 years ago; he was trying to bring about the end of the world): Fudge factor #1 (quoting here and below Dr. Elst): > There is an > initial vowel sign, like the Aleph, which can represent any vowel: this is > the omnipresent jar sign. Fudge factor #2 (and more concrete examples undoubtably exist): > the 5-stroke standing man > is [ra] or [R] (no Paninian fine phonetic distinctions yet), the standing > fish is [sha] (also "100", sha-tam) Fudge factor #3: > An obvious weak point is that several sounds have > more than one sign representing them Fudge factor #4: > The direction of > writing is not fixed And still, as Prof. Witzel points out in depth, Jha/Rajaram couldn't generate a grammatical Sanskrit construction out of their "decipherment"!! I'm sure there are lots of other fudge factors in the Jha/Rajaram "method." I also imagine (make this a prediction) that their book is filled with lots of decipherments concerning horses, chariots, etc. -- all the needed "missing" evidence to hook up an RV hoary with age with a "Late Vedic" (!) Harappan. I seriously doubt that the Dholhavira decipherment is an isolated case. I'll know soon -- and will report back -- since I was told today that *another* copy of the book is being airmailed to me from India. (Promised copy #3.) Funny field Indologists inhabit -- filled with really tough and interesting scholarly questions but also a lot of crackpots and lots of unintentional (?) humor. I put a question mark after "unintentional" since the "decipherment" of the Dholavira inscription by Jha/Rajaram looks to me *a lot* like an AIT/OIT insider's joke! > "I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my > wealth of horses" Let's add an extra Harappan symbol to the text -- recently discovered and not yet found in any existing Harappan catalogs: :^) Cheers! Steve Farmer From palashm at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 9 16:52:28 2000 From: palashm at HOTMAIL.COM (Palash Jyoti Mazumdar) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 17:52:28 +0100 Subject: Harappan Deciphered? Message-ID: <161227059736.23782.11239057749955735204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Without going deeply into the matter, wouldn't any theory of the lack of writing in Harappa be consistent with the traditional view of Vedic literature being a purely verbal one? From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sun Jul 9 21:58:56 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 09 Jul 00 23:58:56 +0200 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059744.23782.3649024337692707636.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> More details on the Jha/Rajaram decipherment to follow. Below Prof. Rajaram's first comment on Prof. Witzel's comment on my extremely brief account of the decipherment. sincerely, Koenraad Elst Van: navaratna rajaram > People should read the whole book before judging it. Anyway it is moot since > we have now read pretty much all the seals we could get hold of. We are > working on a magnum opus that deciphers and interprets all the seals. > > N.S. Rajaram From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jul 10 04:28:24 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 00:28:24 -0400 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! In-Reply-To: <001601bfe9f1$a7025000$0b0fe0d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <161227059750.23782.2757855200708169748.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Prof. Rajaram: >> People should read the whole book before judging it. Certainly, but K.Elst's (originally, enthusiastic, if I remember well,) description, combined with the one line from Dholavira already was more than *enough* to show three major flaws and many other disconcerting details, as listed in two emails. Using the ingenious Rajaram/Jha method, I can read the Dholavira inscription much better, however, not as: >Dholavira signboard acc. to Jha/Rajaram: >"mad-dvaidhah-raaga-vedhaashvaih-sahasra-dhaa" --- i.e.: m -d - d - r -g - v - d - z - s - d but as: maitradhaa -raaghava-deza-saadha! "Success to the Country of Raaghava which promotes friendship!" Much better for a city wall! Especially so, as it rightly refers to Lord Krishna's realm and his capital, situated just over the Rann of Cutch, where it recently has been dredged up from the ocean at Dwarka. In short: Mine is the *only correct* reading in the geographical and early historical context! You read it here first! SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT from Rajaram/Jha's, isn't it: >"I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my >wealth of horses" *** Maybe, our esteemed colleagues who are better at composing Skt. Shlokas can come up with some nicer two dozen or so readings of this line. Just remember, the rules are: Consonants count little, vowels nothing. I suggest a contest, and let the best (most imaginative) 'reading' win! And receive a prize. From me. I mean it. Prof. Rajaram continues: >>Anyway it is moot since >> we have now read pretty much all the seals.... We are >> working on a magnum opus that deciphers and interprets all the seals. If based on the same principles, procedures and "constructive" use of imagination: "leave all hope behind!" Case closed. To quote an old Nepali friend of mine who always issues a saavadhaana-pattra ("warning sheet") whenever a new book on history comes out: "We have already condemned him!" Anything on the recent Munda reading? ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jul 9 23:53:01 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 00:53:01 +0100 Subject: HISTORY OF INDIAN CHEMISTRY In-Reply-To: <001301bfe8f9$8c6e41c0$cca809ca@venkiteshran> Message-ID: <161227059748.23782.13848890536834544786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have deleted this member from the list for wilfully posting a large message to the whole membership. This is explicitly against the guidelines for the group, which are very clear and explicit. See www.indology.org.uk, under "membership and rules". Recommeneded maximum size of posting is 2k. Yes, 2 kilobytes. One screenful. On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Venkiteshwaran wrote: > > Dear members > > i attach herewith a draft paper on 'History of Indian Chemistry' for your comments and suggestions > > regards > > muthulakshmy > > > -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 10 13:26:59 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 06:26:59 -0700 Subject: Hydronomy of Tamil rivers (Re: Again, SANSKRIT broadcasts) Message-ID: <161227059761.23782.6659399636808206816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>If I were to consider your proposed etymology for >>noyyal, it still doesn't address the issue of the >>suffix *al. This is typically an infinitive ending and >>a verbal noun forming suffix so I wonder what it's >>doing in a river name. Like kAn2/kAn2al, maN/maNal, nolai/nolaiyal which are nouns with -al endings formed from non-verbs mentioned, Tamil toponyms with -al endings are: kOval (a srivaishnava tiruppati), cikkal, cuziyal, cEynjal, nAval, marukal, mAkaRal, paRiyal, jnAzal, ... noyyal can be like one of these. Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 10 14:31:25 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 07:31:25 -0700 Subject: vaiyai Message-ID: <161227059762.23782.572414999707970437.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Online Tamil Lexicon (Cologne) gives: vai 04 sharpness, keenness, point vai 05 grass Does vaiyai hydronym come from 1) to cut asunder the land "sharp" (vai-nuti-vEl: sharp spear) or 2) grass? What is the etymology for vaiyai? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Mon Jul 10 06:33:04 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 08:33:04 +0200 Subject: Harappan Horse Thieves! (Decipherment Debunked) Message-ID: <161227059753.23782.10362521423834495404.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Van: Steve Farmer > I couldn't at first figure out why Dr. Elst offered this minimalist > post and so abruptly left the scene, since he was asked for data on > *how* the Dholavira sign was deciphered. > Then swifter than the Ashvins' chariot, a thought came to me -- and I > understood why Dr. Elst posted and ducked for cover. I don't like the endless imputation of funny motives which keeps on poisoning the whole AIT debate; that includes all the imputations against Dr. Farmer himself expressed on the IndianCivilization list. I suppose the only thing to do about it is to keep on redirecting the focus at the evidence again and again. As for my "minimalism", the only reason is lack of time over the weekend (my wife etc. etc.). Given Dr. Farmer's impatient eagerness for the Dholavira text, I just shot off the essential. > One of the Achilles heels of Out-of-India theories (OIT) -- at least > the type that Drs. Rajaram and Jha and Kak and Kalyanaraman endorse, > placing the Rigveda *before* Harappa -- is the mass of evidence in the > RV for horses and spoked wheels and and lightweight two-wheeled > chariots and razor-tires and ratha-carriers and so on, when compared > with the total *lack* of evidence for such things in Harappa. (No > spoked chariots showed up *anyplace* in Eurasia before around 2000 > BCE, in fact. Quickly thereafter they popped up all over the place -- > from Central Asia to Egypt to China.) The lack of evidence there is not all that total, judging from what Indian archaeologists tell me, and the destructive Indian climate must be factored in. > Solution? Come up with a amazingly flexible "decipherment system" -- > linguistically deconstructed by Michael Witzel in his last posts -- > that provides evidence of "avaricious raiders" defeated "a thousand > times" by the Harappans when those raiders tried to steal IVC's > "WEALTH of horses": Again that conspiratorial spin put on what I know to be Jha and Rajaram's honestly held conviction about the correctness of their decipherment. > Unless, of course, it is an unquestionable matter of unquestionable > OIT Faith for you that the Suutras *must* be of hoary antiquity. If > that's the case, a large arsenal of traditional exegetical strategies > or reconciliative hermeneutical techniques can be invoked to help you > "save" your thesis. Among scholars, this (even conditionally) imputed reliance on "faith" to be "saved" by "exegesis" must be considered an insult. I'll let that pass too. You know enough about NASA scientist Rajaram to surmise that he bases his theory on something better than faith. It still remains that his method may turn out to be flawed, but that is one thing he shares with all researchers. > As Dr. Elst has indicated in his posts, *single* symbols are read in > different ways by Jha/Rajaram in different inscriptions. Not in any different ways. There is a common phonetic element between R and r, between ka, ke and ki, etc. > Moreover, the > same *vowel* symbol can be read differently even in a *single* > inscription. Though difficult for the decipherer (or conversely making things easier for the lazy decipherer), it so happens that such scripts have existed and still exist: Hebrew and Arabic, of course, but also some Indian script used for bookkeeping until recently, e.g. the older form of Gurumukhi. > I'm sure there are lots of other fudge factors in the Jha/Rajaram > "method." I also imagine (make this a prediction) that their book is > filled with lots of decipherments concerning horses, chariots, etc. -- "fudge" etc.: see above. You may have noticed that my own initial enthusiasm for this decipherment has waned, but not to the point of dismissing it as an "insider's joke" or an "exegesis" etc. In internal consistency, it is as good as Parpola's and better than all other proposed decipherments that I have seen. Also, the authors accept the limits of their interpretation, e.g. concerning some Harappan-script seals found in West Asia, they state that they cannot make sense of them, surmising they were written in a different language: only one of the many reasons not to follow Dr. Farmer's imputations of funny motives. In a number of seals, their reading fits nicely if sometimes in unexpected ways with the picture, e.g. there is an oft-copied bull motif with a brief text read by them as "IndraH", who is indeed likened to a bull in the RV.. More to follow. K. Elst From sellmer at INDO.UNI-KIEL.DE Mon Jul 10 07:03:03 2000 From: sellmer at INDO.UNI-KIEL.DE (Sven Sellmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 09:03:03 +0200 Subject: address Message-ID: <161227059755.23782.13102067516651356744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Kulke's e-mail address is: kulke at asian-history.uni-kiel.de Best wishes, Sven Sellmer Seminar f. Orientalistik d. CAU Abt. f. Indologie Leibnizstr. 10 D - 24118 Kiel Germany sellmer at indo.uni-kiel.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 10 17:54:01 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 10:54:01 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059768.23782.4119993306668079543.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Birgit Kellner writes : >These two were by no means the last great Buddhist philosophers >around. >For Udayana, in fact, his elder contemporary JJAnazrImitra, at >least some >of whose works were composed before Udayanas', was much >more important. It >is in this context worth noting that JJAnazrImitra >authored a lengthy >treatise called "IzvaravAdaH", which covers about >80 pages in Anantalal >Thakur's edition of J's works (Patna 1987, 2nd >ed.). I don't know whether >Udayana takes up any specific arguments >from JJAnazrI in this context, but >he is certainly known to have >reacted against J's arguments on other >subjects. If you can show that JnAnashrimitra wrote against theism and also show that Udhayana was responding to him, your argument would be more convincing. >At any rate, there is no reason why Udayana in his historical environment >should >not have felt compelled to write a treatise that aims to establish the >existence >of Izvara. As I said before, I find it strange that the top logician of the NyAya school would write on a subject which was not critical at that point in time. >Whether, in doing so, he proposed any substantially new arguments, or >whether in fact his (presumably largely Buddhist) opponents had managed to >come >up with substantially new arguments against the notion of an Izvara in the >first >place, is of course a different subject-matter. But the assessment of >novelty of >arguments has got nothing to do with dating. Which is where I disagree. For I do not see his dialectic as being relevant to his times. Unless ofcourse you can prove otherwise. >Only if one takes an incomplete and narrow view on what constitute its >"philosophical environs". >As far as I can see, only someone who is quite unfamiliar with Udayana, his >works and the study thereof would come up with such a question. All this is quite unnecessary - can we practice some objectivity here? I just raised a few questions. Since you are familiar with Udhayana, all you've to do is, just show that a post-Shankaran Buddhist philospher raised arguments against theism and this is what Udhayana responded to. Then the subject is closed. Vidhya writes : >The vedAnta philosophers did. Other schools of Indian philosophy didn't. >The >sooner one gives up the idea that there is only one "Indian Philosophy", >the >better. It is a greater flaw to think that the schools are totally unrelated. No school grew in isolation. Each school grew up arguing with the other schools and that is the way Indian philosphy developed. For eg : NAgArjuna criticizes Gautama; VAtsyAyana criticizes NAgArjuna; DignAga criticizes VAtsyAyana; UdhyotakAra criticizes DignAga; Dharmakirti criticizes UdhyotacAra; VAchaspati criticizes Dharmakirti and so on. It is like architects building houses. They might have different designs, different ideas, different ways of expression - but the ultimate goal is the same - shelter. Likewise for Indian philosophers the ultimate end is liberation and they're but discussing the same subject from different angles. Whether you concentrate on the differences or similarities is your choice - but do not take your stand on one and deny the other. >Look at it this way. It is an unfounded myth, that the Buddhists just >packed >their bags and left India for good, after Sankara's time. There is much >evidence for the continued presence of Buddhists in many parts of India, >down to the 13th century or so. According to your ideas, Ramanuja and >Madhva, who came after Sankara, also need not have argued against Buddhist >ideas, but they make it a point to refute various schools of Buddhism. But is criticism of Buddhism the main flavour of their works? Their attacks are more directed towards Advaita, since it was the leading philosophical system by that time. Criticism of Buddhism and other schools is part of the general philosphical views to be refuted. Again by this I don't mean that Buddhists were non-existent by that time, only that they were no more in their prime. By that time, Advaita ruled the roost. >To whom is Udayana trying to prove anything? Primarily to Buddhists, and >also >to anybody who is not a naiyyAyika. Since Birgit Kellner points out a Buddhist philosopher whom she claims has written more profound works than SAntarakshita and Kamalasila and was the one Udhayana's dialectic is directed against, best thing is to check whether this philospher has written against the concept of a creator God. If that were so, it would make sense to say Udhayana is answering his criticism. >It doesn't seem to be well noticed, but even Advaita is heavily influenced >by nyAya. That doesn't mean a thing, however, for the kind of argument you >are making. Ofcouse, a school which teaches pluralism, atomism, dualistic theism and most importantly "visesha" - the anti-thesis of the VedAntic unity underlying all phenomena, would have "heavily" influenced Advaita. But schools which teach non-dualism, different levels of reality, the unreality of the world, just because they are nAstika, have no influence on Advaita, right? >The vedAntin or the mImAMsaka can accept something as valid because Shruti >says so. The naiyyAyika cannot. He does not accept the proposition that >Shruti is self-valid. Rather, he says that Shruti is valid because it was >composed by the creator. The existence of this creator is proved by other >arguments, independent of what Shruti says. You've misunderstood me. I'm not questioning the NaiyAyika's reason to prove the existence of a creator. I'm only questioning the time of his argument,since I do not see anybody raising objections to the theory. Also it would be an understatement to say that the VedAnti accepts things just because the shruti says so. If so, why is Shankara providing logical arguments in support of Advaita? He could have simply said that truth is Advaita because the shruti says so and taken no further pains. So where things can be logically explained he takes the effort to do so. Where they cannot, he takes shelter in the shruti. And it is not that Shankara has provided no logical background for theism. He specifically takes care to criticize views which are against a creator God. But what he doesn't do is try to prove the existence of God by his own arguments.Instead he takes shelter in the shruti. From this it is only reasonable to assume that Shankara thought that proving the existence of a creator God was beyond the scope of reason. And arguments against theism have a long history in India. The JainAs, the ChAravAkas, the Buddhists, the earlier SAmkhyas and some Miimaamsakas (KumArilla) have all argued against a creator God - all these in pre-Shankaran times. Buddhist arguments against theism seems to be heavy in the pre-Advaita days - the SautrAntikas particularly - Yashomitra, Dharmakirti et al. In this period the NaiyAyikas fighting against the Buddhists was particularly intense. By the time of Shankara the subject seems to have been almost exhausted and at a stalemate, with no favorable conclusion on either side. So Shankara taking refuge in the shruti for proof of the existence of a creator God seems quite in tune with the philosophical environs in his time. And theism is not the main flavor in Advaita. So it is with respect to these arguments that I think Buddhist criticism after Shankara and before RAmAnuja, might not have been directed towards theism. But again, if Birgitte can show that JnAnashrimitra did argue against theism and it was him that Udhayana's dialectic is directed against, I'm willing to revise my opinion. >Unless you understand the differences between the svataH-prAmANya-vAda of >one group and the parataH-prAmANya-vAda of the other, and all the >respective >implications for these arguments about scripture and the creator, you will >continue to find it strange that Udayana makes this argument. >You will see that significant Buddhists lived and wrote their texts, many >centuries after Sankara had come and gone. I only said that by the time of Shankara Buddhism was on the wane and "on the wane", can by no means be equated with disappearance. A religion doesn't die so easily. It would have taken centuries after Shankara before Buddhism really disappeared. I was just pointing out that by the 10th century Buddhism has lost its steam and the VedAntic schools were getting stronger. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jul 10 09:08:26 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 11:08:26 +0200 Subject: SV: Harappan Horse Thieves! (Decipherment Debunked) Message-ID: <161227059764.23782.16016032200025661202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer [SMTP:saf at SAFARMER.COM] skrev 10. juli 2000 01:08: > As Dr. Elst has indicated in his posts, *single* symbols are read in > different ways by Jha/Rajaram in different inscriptions. Moreover, the > same *vowel* symbol can be read differently even in a *single* > inscription. This gives you more than enough flexibility so that you > can derive almost *anything* that you want out of any inscription -- > even perhaps the English or Old Norse readings claimed by my unnamed > Sanskritist friend. > > To my unnamed Sanskritist friend, who I know is listening in: Please > post your decipherment before it is too late! I know whom you're talking about. I spoke with him yesterday. Unfortunately, he is busy right now trying to prove that Egyptian hieroglyphics are really an early form of Swedish, and this is *hard, time-consuming work*. I don't think you can expect any new groundbreaking analyses in the field of Harappan studies from him for next few months. Best regards, Lars Martin Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From mlbd at VSNL.COM Mon Jul 10 06:58:14 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 12:28:14 +0530 Subject: www.newagebooksindia.com Message-ID: <161227059758.23782.9215121411056716223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Kindly visit www.newagebooksindia.com. This is a new and comprehensive site for books on religion and philosophy. We are in the process of adding all indian publishers' books later this year. Its being updated everyday. Feel free to order Indian books. Please let us have your comments which will help us improving the site. Varun Jain Marketing Deptt -- Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel : (011) 3974826; 3911985; 3918335; 3932747 (011) 5795180; 5793423; 5797356 Fax : (011) 3930689; 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com & gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: www.mlbdbooks.com ************************************************************* God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ********************************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jul 10 19:40:59 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 12:40:59 -0700 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059779.23782.284358417307526553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya writes: > Also, Dr. Witzels and Dr. Farmers posting's were not polite > by any standard. There is a big difference between satire, which is backed by a venerable tradition in the world of scholarship, and meanspirited namecalling. Those posts were backed by solid evidence and served an extremely useful scholarly purpose. When public claims of revolutionary discoveries are made -- and the claims for Jha/Rajaram have *definitely* been revolutionary -- the people making those claims have to expect close scrutiny and even ridicule if those claims are groundless. Recall the "cold fusion" debacle of a few years ago? How many times have claims been made that the Harappan code has been cracked? Take a look at the list in Possehl (1996). Do you think that those inflated claims have helped or retarded research in Indology? The Jha/Rajaram book is entitled _The Deciphered Indus Script_. Well, it hasn't been deciphered. As M. Witzel has shown with good humor, using the method of Jha/Rajaram you can generate just about *any* reading that you want. Any "method" that flexible invites a little laughter. Voltaire would have gone much further than M. Witzel or I did in satirizing the "avaricious horse thieves" reading of the Kholavira signpost, which fits so perfectly and conveniently into the OIT scene. I agree totally that simple namecalling doesn't serve any good scholarly purpose. But I don't think that is true of satire, which has been with us since the beginning of scientific historical research in the eighteenth century. Laughter has a legitimate place in the scholarly world -- as in life in general. My best, Steve Farmer From shrao at NYX.NET Mon Jul 10 18:53:08 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 12:53:08 -0600 Subject: Date of Udhayana In-Reply-To: <20000707163529.57965.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059775.23782.1544002182254310647.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, nanda chandran wrote: > Birgit Kellner writes : > >Second: Even if it were admitted to be strange that Udayana should > > >continue a debate that SaGkara decided not to continue - which I > >personally would not consider strange at all -, such "atmospheric" > > >considerations are not a reliable basis for establishing the relative > > >chronology of Indian philosophers, nor do they constitute sufficient > > >evidence to call into question datings that are otherwise firmly > > >established. > > If Shankara after KumArilla had been the only one who'd given up on the > argumentation, I wouldn't be raising this point. All the VedAnta AchAryas > who follow Shankara - RAmAnuja, Madhva, NimbArka, Vallabha - all of them > sing the same tune. Isn't this a good basis to believe that Indian > philosophers after Shankara considered the concept of a creator God as > beyond logical proof? No, it isn't, because your premise is wrong. Madhva does take up the issue of the (possible) logical proofs of a Creator, and his point is generally well accepted even today -- a Creator cannot be proved by logic, because even the opposite may be inferred. The debate on this issue also did not cease with Madhva; Vyasaraya (1460-1539) goes further in his tarka-tANDava and attempts to show that the nyAya method of inferring a Creator would also infer one with defects, etc., which is not acceptable to Udayana and others. For instance, if one says that the universe is a product of work for consisting of physical substances, ghaTavat.h, and therefore must have a Creator, then one can likewise say that the Creator must have a body subject to disease and death, and that His knowledge must be temporary and limited, just as with the potter. If the naiyAyika holds that the the Creator must be a sarvaj~na because just as a potter knows his pot, the Creator of all must know everything, then it can be said that the simile is fallacious; just as complex creations like houses are built by the labor of many, the universe may be the work of many creators, none of whom need necessarily possess virtues such as omniscience. Thus, a unique and virtuous Creator cannot be proved logically. Regards, Shrisha Rao From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 10 20:09:44 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 13:09:44 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059781.23782.11518335059244166994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >No, it isn't, because your premise is wrong. Madhva does take up the >issue of the (possible) logical proofs of a Creator, and his point is >generally well accepted even today -- a Creator cannot be proved by >logic, >because even the opposite may be inferred. >The debate on this issue also did not cease with Madhva; Vyasaraya >(1460-1539) goes further in his tarka-tANDava and attempts to show that >the nyAya method of inferring a Creator would also infer one with >defects, >etc., which is not acceptable to Udayana and others. When I first read this, I thought, "What is Shrisha talking about?". While he seemed to refute me, his arguments just complement my argument that after Shankara philosophers thought that a creator God was beyond logical proof. Vyasathirtha is perfectly right and is quite in line with Shankara, that though a creator cannot be logically proven, neither can he be logically denied. But it took a second reading to grasp the implication of Shrisha's post that not all philosophers took that stand. Apparently even after Shankara there were those who were bent on proving the existence of God based on reason. Maybe Udhayana was one of them. But a philosopher of his class, a century after Shankara, couldn't realize the futility of such an enterprise, is definitely a surprise to me. Thanks for the reference anyway. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 10 18:24:25 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 13:24:25 -0500 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059774.23782.4853334223755680296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I have deleted this member from the list for wilfully posting a large >message to the whole membership. See www.indology.org.uk, >under >"membership and rules". Recommeneded maximum >size of posting is 2k. > >Yes, 2 kilobytes. One screenful. > > Dr. Witzels posting on July 8th was 22k. Jha's posting of a PDF attachment on June 27 was 35k. Also, Dr. Witzels and Dr. Farmers posting's were not polite by any standard. I hope that the same standards apply to all people or are the Europeanist school members more equal ?. Regards. Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Jul 10 17:46:37 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 13:46:37 -0400 Subject: Harappan Deciphered? Message-ID: <161227059766.23782.11046643518189176619.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/ wowp1vo.html http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/ wowp2cto.html Some more claimed decipherments described here. Hope list members get past the initial rhetoric and get at the actual substance. RB From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Mon Jul 10 18:08:48 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 14:08:48 -0400 Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <161227059772.23782.5540802258231739825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following position announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the JOB POSTINGS section of SARAI. Please contact University of Chicago directly for any further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai =========================================== POSITION: Assistant Director for Southern Asian Studies (University of Chicago) Applications for the position of Assistant Director for Southern Asian Studies should be mailed to the South Asia Language and Area Center; University of Chicago; 5848 South University Avenue, Room K-311; Chicago, Illinois 60637 before August 15, 2000 to ensure consideration during the first review of applicants. Alternatively a faxed copy may be sent to 773-702-1309. Please include the names and contact information for three references. For further information please contact James Nye at 773-702-8430 (after August 1) or Norman Cutler at 773-702-8643. JOB TITLE: Assistant Director for Southern Asian Studies DIVISION: Humanities DEPARTMENT: Committee on Southern Asian Studies and South Asia Language and Area Center CLASSIFICATION: E-30 SALARY RANGE: $31,897 - 57,884 DESIRED STARTING DATE: 9/15/00 GENERAL SUMMARY: Reporting to the Chair of the Committee on Southern Asian Studies (COSAS) and the Director of the South Asia Language and Area Center (SALAC), the Assistant Director is responsible for ensuring the effective daily operation of COSAS and SALAC. The Assistant Director is charged with program planning and execution, policy making, grants administration, fund raising, office management and staff supervision. The Assistant Director exercises considerable independent judgment and requires a mature, experienced administrator to competently manage the multiple tasks associated with the position. PRINCIPAL DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES: Coordinates and supervises COSAS and SALAC-sponsored events and programs including seminars, conferences, public lectures, visiting scholars program, and outreach activities. Exercises financial oversight on all COSAS endowed funds and SALAC grants from the federal government and private foundations. Develops short- and long-term programmatic and administrative goals for COSAS and SALAC; develops and administers policies and procedures in conjunction with the Chair of COSAS and Director of SALC. Seeks new funding opportunities; writes grant proposals in collaboration with the Chair and Director. Supervises data collection for COSAS and SALAC and for university publications. Administers fellowship competitions, including dissemination of information on fellowships to student and convening campus evaluation and selection committees for Fulbright, COSAS, and FLAS awards. Negotiates award amounts with respective Deans of Students, the Office of Graduate Affairs, and the Department of Education Program Officer. Supervises COSAS and SALAC staff and coordinates workflow. Responsible for hiring, evaluating, promoting, disciplining and discharging COSAS and SALAC staff in consultation with the Chair and Director. Serves as liaison with other South Asia National Resource Centers, the Department of Education, private foundations and University Divisions. Fosters linkages with other institutions including professional associations, community groups, and universities. Administers the Friends of South Asia program, a philanthropic organization for support of South Asian studies at the University. Depending upon qualifications and needs of the program, teaches in the South Asian Civilizations sequence of courses and advises B.A. concentrators in South Asian Studies. QUALIFICATIONS: Education: Candidates should hold a Master's or higher degree. Preference will be given to candidates with substantive coursework in South Asian studies. Experience: Candidates should possess proven organizational abilities and two or more years of experience in a position of comparable responsibility and initiative. Skills: Candidates should possess excellent intellectual, administrative, and human relations skills. Effective oral and written communication skills and computer literacy are essential. Candidates must demonstrate the ability to conceptualize and implement major initiatives such as seminars, conferences, grant proposals, exchange programs and outreach events. The ability to collaborate well in a small staff environment and to lead in a manner conducive to positive staff morale is also important. Proficiency in a major South Asian language is highly desirable. DISCLAIMER: The above statements are intended to describe the general nature and level of the work being performed by people assigned to this job. They are not intended to be an exhaustive list of all responsibilities, duties, and skills required of the incumbent. From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Jul 11 02:49:06 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 16:49:06 -1000 Subject: Aryan invasion by sea? In-Reply-To: <20000709121426.11303.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059788.23782.8567184183478036197.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dr. Ganesan wrote: >Excavations at Lothal have proved that IVC seals were employed >for trade purposes. Sangam poetry in Tamil mentions the use >of seals exactly in this manner. If seals were employed for trade, couldn't dolphins, or even whales, have been employed for large-scale immigration? In other words, could the notorious Aryan invasion have been seaborne? Have any remains of chariots or spoked wheels been recovered from under the Indian Ocean? Perplexed as usual, Narayan Sriranga Raja. From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Jul 11 00:00:58 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 20:00:58 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059785.23782.16232220651990769720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, one important distinction here is that the posts of S. Farmer and M. Witzel were in response to an on-going discussion on the List, whereas the paper on Indian chemistry was unsolicited. I'm sure that if they or anyone else started using the List as a means of distributing unsolicited papers to the List membership, they would be promptly removed as well. George Thompson [Speaking of insulting posts, K. Elst has learned well the schoolboy's trick of striking first, and then feigning hurt victimhood as he appeals to the List and the List's moderator to condemn the nasty retaliation of his rivals. Has anyone else noticed his rather frequent use of this ploy?] From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Mon Jul 10 19:00:52 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 21:00:52 +0200 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059777.23782.6383875372864543304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > If you can show that JnAnashrimitra wrote against theism and also > show that Udhayana was responding to him, your argument would be more > convincing. If I could show that, I would not have written that I don't know it. Unfortunately, my time is limited, and I don't have the five minutes it would require to do a thorough comparative study of Udayana's NKus and JJAnazrI's IzvaravAda :-) No one else has done that yet either, but if one is seriously looking at debates about theism in this time, it is *essential* to examine these treatises before jumping to hasty conclusions with far-reaching consequences. Since *you* are actually advancing a thesis here, this would be your task, not mine. It is also worth noting in this context that there were quite a few other NaiyAyikas that advanced arguments in favour of theism, some of whom are expressly dealt with by JJAnazrI (Kano Kyo has published partial Japanese translations of the "pUrvapakSa"-portion of J's IzvaravAda, so this much information is available) - Vittoka, ZaGkarasvAmin, Trilocana, VAcaspatimizra. I suppose that, given your line of argument, you would want to date *them* pre-ZaGkara, too, no? > As I said before, I find it strange that the top logician of the NyAya > school would write on a subject which was not critical at that point in > time. As I said before, the assumption that the problem was not critical at the point in time is extremely problematic. This point must be addressed and acknowledged if one is to come to acceptable conclusions on this matter. I will not repeat this again, for I am getting tired of debating with people who apparently do not examine available evidence, yet keep repeating claims for which they would need much more evidence than they have so far produced. > All this is quite unnecessary - can we practice some objectivity here? I > just raised a few questions. Since you are familiar with Udhayana, all you've > to do is, just show that a post-Shankaran Buddhist philospher raised arguments > against theism and this is what Udhayana responded to. Then the subject is > closed. *I* don't have to do anything; *you* have to provide evidence, by which I mean solid textual work, a) for why the questions you raised are actually worth investigating and b) for why the claims you advance are reasonable. I can point you to several publications that might assist you in this query, but that's all I can do. You're threading on ground that research has not yet sufficiently covered, so either you do research yourself, or you revise your claims in order to factor in the uncertainty regarding whether or not Udayana reacted to JJAnazrI in NKus. Unless you do one of these things, I agree that "all this is quite unnecessary", and unless you have any further *specific* evidence to come up with, I for my part consider this thread closed. Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 10 20:43:41 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 21:43:41 +0100 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059783.23782.4626817173423331234.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: w.r.t Birgit Kellner - >As I said before, I find it strange that the top logician of the NyAya >school would write on a subject which was not critical at that point in >time. > ....... >All this is quite unnecessary - can we practice some objectivity here? I >just raised a few questions. Since you are familiar with Udhayana, all It seems to me that you are the one who needs to practice some objectivity here. Anyone with a computer and a subscription to this list can type out hundreds of such questions. If you wish to make a serious argument, present primary evidence and substantiate your reasoning. At the very least, make an effort to show why you find something strange. Nobody who has taken some trouble to read these texts, or at least to read about them, finds this strange. If you wish to argue that Udayana must have been pre-Sankara, the onus is on you to present arguments in that regard. And you have to be more convincing than "I find it strange." If this is the crux of your argument, the only response is going to be, "so what?" w.r.t. to me - >It is a greater flaw to think that the schools are totally unrelated. No >school grew in isolation. Each school grew up arguing with the other schools >and that is the way Indian philosphy developed. For eg : You are really tilting at windmills here. To whom are you imputing this supposed flaw? Read . I haven't updated this page for more than a year. You have done nothing more than to repeat my own comments, and curiously enough, against me. ........ >Since Birgit Kellner points out a Buddhist philosopher whom she claims has >written more profound works than SAntarakshita and Kamalasila and was the >one Udhayana's dialectic is directed against, best thing is to check whether >this philospher has written against the concept of a creator God. If that >were so, it would make sense to say Udhayana is answering his criticism. The mere existence of a post-Sankaran Buddhist philosopher in India is sufficient to prove you wrong. There can be no unanimity over whether one thinker is more profound than another, or more subtle than another. In any case, Birgit Kellner made no such claim. All she pointed out was that Udayana has responded to some of the arguments made by Jnanasrimitra, in other contexts. And she pointed out that the same Jnanasrimitra had also written against various conceptions of Isvara. She also gave you the name of the relevant text. Why don't you do the "checking" yourself? That would be the best thing for all concerned. >Ofcouse, a school which teaches pluralism, atomism, dualistic theism and >most importantly "visesha" - the anti-thesis of the VedAntic unity >underlying all phenomena, would have "heavily" influenced Advaita. But >schools which teach non-dualism, different levels of reality, the unreality >of the world, just because they are nAstika, have no influence on Advaita, >right? You are mixing up two separate discussions, from two separate mailing lists. Not very good for netiquette. At this point of time, on this list, I have no desire to enter into how, when and why madhyamaka thought may or may not have influenced advaita vedAnta. For the sake of readers who are wondering what this is about, Nanda's comment refers to an earlier discussion of madhyamaka and advaita, taking place on the Advaita mailing list. You can find the details from the June 2000 archives, at . ..... >You've misunderstood me. I'm not questioning the NaiyAyika's reason to prove >the existence of a creator. I'm only questioning the time of his >argument,since I do not see anybody raising objections to the theory. How does the passage of time affect criteria of consistency within a system of thought? And whom don't you see raising objections, and to what theory? Put yourself in the shoes of a naiyyAyika (if that is possible), and think about parataH-prAmANya and why it is a logical necessity for Udayana to have made his arguments about a creator. >By the time of Shankara the subject seems to have been almost exhausted and >at a stalemate, with no favorable conclusion on either side. So Shankara >taking refuge in the shruti for proof of the existence of a creator God >seems quite in tune with the philosophical environs in his time. This "environs" bogey again. What were the philosophers of different schools in the generations after Sankara supposed to do? .... >I only said that by the time of Shankara Buddhism was on the wane and "on >the wane", can by no means be equated with disappearance. A religion doesn't >die so easily. It would have taken centuries after Shankara before Buddhism >really disappeared. Your "on the wane" argument was built on the reasoning that Udayana was highly responsible for Buddhism to have been on the wane even before Sankara was born. Check your premises. Your argument is faulty on multiple counts. Finally, you are not the only one who can ask questions, and provide no answers. Let me ask you one question. Whatever your ideas may be about the relative date of Sankara and Udayana, can you enlighten us about your view of the absolute date of Sankara? I don't expect a fixed date. Just the ballpark estimate of the century is enough right now. A little bit of honest reasoning behind it would also be appreciated. Vidyasankar From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Jul 11 02:54:23 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 00 22:54:23 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership; Harappan deciphered Message-ID: <161227059790.23782.9168915695821225561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I call the List's attention to K. Elst's very first post to this List [dated 9/2/99], in which he defends his dear friend "Vishalji", who had just finished threatening me, clearly and directly and publically, by reminding me of the wisdom of the principle of self-preservation; he insinuates elaborately a common cause between the historian Romila Thapar and Hitler, and then later suggests that it is M. Witzel who is guilty of initiating this tactic of using the Nazi card; he writes eloquent defenses of the assassin of Gandhi [who, he says, had retreated from morality by attempting to reconcile with Muslims] all this at his bizarre web site [and he thanks me cynically for calling attention to this site-- grateful as all scoundrels are for the free publicity]; he makes a weird threatening allusion to having to take care of Salman Rushdie instead of pursuing his Vedic studies -- as if silencing Rushdie seemed more important to him at the time than Vedic studies or silencing me [thank goodness]. He refuses to renounce the rampant fascism in the popular press of India, since it exalts him as a hero of so-called free thought [a rare European exception, he is]. He disparages all western scholarship as motivated by some kind of Max Mueller syphilitic disease that converts us all into fundamentalist Christians, simply because we are appalled by the idea that India IS, all minds closed to reality, *the cradle of civilization*, no matter what history actualy tells us. Blah blah blah blah blah. This is K. Elst. And he continues to hide behind the mask of the victim. Please recall that I was the first member of this list to welcome him. And I will be the last one to forgive him. George Thompson From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Tue Jul 11 00:55:58 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 02:55:58 +0200 Subject: Rules of Membership; Harappan deciphered Message-ID: <161227059786.23782.1288389872659347419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Well, one important distinction here is that the posts of S. Farmer and M. > Witzel were in response to an on-going discussion on the List, whereas the > paper on Indian chemistry was unsolicited. I'm sure that if they or anyone > else started using the List as a means of distributing unsolicited papers to > the List membership, they would be promptly removed as well. And likewise, the following insinuation was entirely unsolicited: > [Speaking of insulting posts, K. Elst has learned well the schoolboy's trick > of striking first, and then feigning hurt victimhood as he appeals to the > List and the List's moderator to condemn the nasty retaliation of his rivals. > Has anyone else noticed his rather frequent use of this ploy?] I expect that if I follow George Thompson off-topic to defend myself against this allegation (which I can), Dr. Wujastyk will tell me to take that discussion off-list, and with reason: this is a forum for debate on idological topics, not on any list member's character or so. Future historians of this debate, in case they care to verify George Thompson's allegation, will be able to trace my intervention on the Harappan script to Dr. Farmer's entirely appropriate question for information on a potentially important claim of decipherment, rather than to any "trick of striking first". All the same, I do think that some of Steve Farmer's recent remarks (which George Thompson calls "nasty"), unlike Michael Witzel's, fall outside the "satirical" register and inside that of "name-calling", though the "hurt victimhood" in this case is not mine but N.S. Rajaram's (but rest assured that he couldn't care less what indologists think of him). It's no big deal, but still, to label as a deliberate "fudge" the hypothesis that the Harappan script could be written in different directions, imputes a motive all while disregarding possible reasons why an honest man could come to that hypothesis. Given the contempt in which Prof. Rajaram is held on this list (which is mutual), the appropriate dictum here would be Napoleon's: "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence." Maybe he's got it all wrong and fooled himself into sincerely believing the ridiculous notion that scripts with more than one direction of writing can exist. Whatever. Glad to return to the real topic, I might point out that multiple-direction scripts do exist. Chinese can be written in no less than three directions: left-to-right (most mainland-Chinese textbooks), right-to-left (still in inscriptions on temple gates and the like) and top-down with the lines succeeding right-to-left (classical texts). The Chinese and Harappan scribes alike designed their scripts in such ways for other reasons than for the sake of confusing future decipherers; and modern decipherers should not be held guilty of manipulations if they rightly or wrongly discern that variable pattern in a given ancient script. As for boustrophedon writing, that too happens to genuinely exist in bonafide ancient scripts. In this case, it may be indicated by, or is at least compatible with, the very fact which first gave B.B. Lal (as he personally told me) the idea that the direction of writing had to be right-to-left. On seals where a second line shorter than the first line appears, it stretches from the right to the middle, as would a second line in a text written in a right-to-left script like Hebrew or Urdu. However, the same effect would be produced by starting out from the left, as the more usual direction, and then returning boustrophedon from the right after completing the first line. Next time some more samples of the Jha/Rajaram decipherment, unless there are definite signs that none are welcome. All the best, K. Elst From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 11 06:58:12 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 07:58:12 +0100 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059792.23782.3455492370081275212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >>No, it isn't, because your premise is wrong. Madhva does take up the >>issue of the (possible) logical proofs of a Creator, and his point is >>generally well accepted even today -- a Creator cannot be proved by >logic, >>because even the opposite may be inferred. .... >Vyasathirtha is perfectly right and is quite in line with Shankara, that >though a creator cannot be logically proven, neither can he be logically >denied. You misconstrue the meaning of "opposite" in Shrisha's post. Vyasatirtha is not interested in proving to the naiyyAyika that a creator cannot be logically denied. No nyAya philosopher presents the denial of a creator as a pUrvapaksha in the first place. What Vyasatirtha is saying is that the nyAya argument does not really prove that the creator is one omnipotent, omniscient being. Using the same structure of nyAya arguments, one could also make an inference that there is ultimately no one creator. One could also make an inference that there are multiple creators. The status of the "author of the Vedas" then becomes even more problematic for the naiyyAyika. Vidyasankar From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jul 11 14:21:00 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 10:21:00 -0400 Subject: Harappan Deciphered?! Message-ID: <161227059798.23782.1633180032814172384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Rajaram had admionished us, via a surrogate: >> People should read the whole book before judging it. Now Rajarshi Banerjee has supplied us with 2 web pages that continue RR's attempts of tackling the Indus script, this time even going back to some of the earliest Indus writings. Ambitious indeed. Leaving aside all of Rajaram's usual, useless polemics against "Western archaeologists", "racist, colonial, missionary Indologists," [where are they today?] and the polemics on this list which have nothing to do with the issue at hand, decipherment: What does RR. have to say on his SWORD OF TRUTH web site? http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/ wowp1vo.html and wowp2vo.htlm show *SCRIPT: Briefly, he reads the following signs, early c. 3500 BCE: dotted rhombus - \ - Y - ^ roof with subscript \ - ^ roof with subscript V - rhombus as: Ilavartate vara and gives a variant where roof with subscript | is expressed by a sign looking like M, and 2nd last as : Y and one more inscriptions (undocumented all of them!) which differs: dotted rhombus - ,\ -Y - M - rimmed vessel |- - rhombus again explained as Ilavartate vara (once written with long a in: Ilaa...) as well. Note that the 2nd last sign differs in the last 2 inscr.! Strangely enough, the preceding examples seem to have been read from left to right, the opposite of the normal sign order. The difference between signs is explained a inner-Harappan development, M = 2 times roof with subscript | or \. The rimmed vessel is again introduced as ANY vowel at the beginning of a word. NOTE that this position is *very* unususal and rare in Indus script! Plus a theory of substitution of writing this vowel by double initial consonant in older writing. Remember, all based on a still unproven, shaky, fudging decipherment... In short, the 3 examples given are not the same and cannot be read as the same unless ADDITIONAL PROOF IS given. Not the case. And why is the sound "v" written as "V" once and as rhombus in the second line? In addition to all the fudging criticised by S. Farmer and me, we have another one here, VIOLATION of HIS OWN principles. That's a FIRST in decipherments! ** TEXT AND MEANING The "text" 'Ilavartate vara' is supposed to refer to the Sarasvati (ila) and " Ilavarta refers to the sacred Vedic heartland. .... It could also refer to the ancient country Ilavrita, ruled by a king by the same name.... Ilavrita (ila avrita) also means 'surrounded by Ila'. " (his web site) First, Rajaram's ila or ilaa seems to be Rgvedic iLaa (with retroflex l) 'portion offered in ritual'. This, unfortunately for RR., is the POST-Rgvedic form of iDaa, as the meter shows. It has been introduced into the Samhita text only later on, by/before Sakalya. But why sqabble about l or L, when so many consonants and vowels share the same character in RR's "alphabet"?? Just more fudging. Second, iLaa is found *together* with Bharatii, mahii, sarasvatii -- thus iLaa and sarasvatii are NOT THE SAME. Third, Ilavartate makes no sense. What is that word?? Fourth, oh-so-desired "country" Ilavarta is NOT found in the Rgveda, as it is made to appear above, nor is it found for for along time: It appears only in the POST-VEDIC form ilaa-vRta (now already with regular -l- !), in the Mahabharata and Puranas. VERY misleading. Fifth, vartate, here obviously taken as 'exists, is' is not Rgvedic at all. Vartate is found in the Rgveda a few times but it ONLY means 'turns around' (of the chariot) , and vartante (plural), of the dice. And, vartate 'is, exists' is only post-Vedic. Later by at least 1000 years than the Rgveda. Sixth, the sentence is again ungrammatical. At best: *iLaa vartate varaa* "iLaa turns around as the best one" (i.e. as offering to the gods, wife of Manu" etc. etc. Why does she turn? Certainly, out of horror that she has been mangled in these "translations". No country, no king ilavarta, not even Sarasvati. Ouch! I wonder: what is Dr.Jha's, RR's Vedic collaborator's role is in all of this? After all, "He is one of the world's foremost Vedic scholars and palaeographers" (according to their website). Does he not know that ilaa is post-Rgvedic? And that vartate 'is' is only Epic/Classical Skt.? Do we have to discuss what "is" is? ***** The unintended irony of Rajaram's "decipherment" is that he now gets a Semitic-style alphabet in the Indus area by 3500 BCE. Long before any alphabet anywhere, and long before the Semitic one was developed from Egyptian writing... Just like the Dholavira horse thieves, do we now have Semitic traders introducing their alphabet before their time? Certainly not intended, as the Sarasvati area is the "cradle of civilization'.... ***** Finally, no one has combatted my criticism of Rajaram yet (beyond some surrogate saying he despises Indologists anyhow, etc.) and his own quote above. If he or his Vedic collaborator Dr. Jha , or his surrogates cannot contest it, my criticism stands. And, my prize contest still stands.... ============================== -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 5534 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jul 11 14:23:04 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 10:23:04 -0400 Subject: Membership/Skt. program (Max Mueller) Message-ID: <161227059800.23782.5640607157872928728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya: >Dr. Witzels posting on July 8th was 22k. >Jha's posting of a PDF attachment on June 27 was 35k. I was indeed a little wary of my decipherment post which had 11k in my Eudora program, especially as I saw that my older Telnet showed THE SAME message as 14,412 K. Should have split it up. Mea culpa. Though dealing with the same topic. By how by VaruNa, Subrahmanyaaaaa!, do you get 22 k? >Also, Dr. Witzels and Dr. Farmers posting's were not polite by any standard. etc. etc. This is the same Subrahmanya who alleged: S. SUBAAHMANYA: Fri, 11 Feb 2000: >>that is why Indology has had Aryan noses, Aryan languages and now Witzel has 'managed' to find Aryan chariot panzers <<<< Pray, Subrahmanyaaaaa, where did I do that? You did not tell us then, and you will not be able to tell us now. Tasmaat, tuSNIm bhava! ==================================== On another contented point. Max Mueller. I checked his first edition on a visit to the main library and found that he indeed signed his first edition, first part (1849 = 1906 varSe), p. XXXI, before start of text, with: zArmaNyadezotpanneneMgalaNDadezanivAsinA BhaTTamokSamUlareNa saMzodhita.... Thus, MokSamUlara; and not moksAmUla (which I remembered) is a later (Indian) improvement, based on his "I POINT TO INDIA " etc. involvement with the proponents of an *Indian* revival. Deutsche Welle, Hindi service, today, MONday/Tuesday morning, still continues with its memorial of Max Mueller in Sanskrit: http://kleist.dwelle.de/hindi/ last 1./3 of Hindi program. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1585 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Jul 11 15:13:52 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 11:13:52 -0400 Subject: Harappan Deciphered ? Message-ID: <161227059802.23782.6629567214073302830.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> And, vartate 'is, exists' is only post-Vedic. Later by at least 1000 years than the Rgveda. .... etc But doesn't RR claim that the bulk of harappan writings are post vedic. Oh well maybe I will have another look and make sure. Anyway as far as vowels, consonants not counting, we just have to look at english, ( sumerian also ?). I admit that readings of this sort are hard to prove or disprove but its as bad/good an attempt as any other to date. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 11 19:38:58 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 12:38:58 -0700 Subject: Sankara's commentary on Chandogya Upanishad Message-ID: <161227059816.23782.12952564454157406026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The question of authenticity of texts attributed to Sankara has been quite a vexed one. His commentary on the Brahmasutra is defined to be authentic, and other texts are studied accordingly. In his 1953 paper in PEW (titled "Sankara's arguments against the Buddhists"), Ingalls compares Sankara's Brahmasutra commentary with that of Bhaskara, and comes to the conclusion that both of them closely follow the pre-Sankaran Vrttikara (Bodhayana?/Upavarsha?) in many passages. He also remarks that Sankara's commentary on the Brhadaranyaka is a much more original text than that on the Brahmasutra. This would indicate that one should perhaps view the Brhadaranyaka commentary as the standard against which other texts need to be measured. It is also my impression that almost every unique Advaita position can be traced back to how Sankara interprets passages from the Brhadaranyaka, indicating that this is his favorite text. However, the highest frequency of Upanishad references in the Brahmasutra commentary is from the Chandogya, followed by Brhadaranyaka. The predominance of Chandogya references in the Brahmasutra commentary is also perhaps a result of sticking to the earlier Vrttikara's interpretations as much as possible, or it is perhaps a legacy of the Sutrakara himself. There is also a commentary by Sankara on the Chandogya. I am unaware of critical studies of this text, and would very much appreciate some references. Specifically, I am looking for 1. whether the authenticity of Sankara's Chandogya commentary has been discussed by anyone, using the methodology developed by Hacker and Mayeda (or using other criteria); and 2. whether any comparative studies have been done, re: Sankara's and Bhaskara's interpretations of Chandogya passages, either from the former's Brahmasutra commentary or from his Chandogya commentary. Vidyasanka ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET Tue Jul 11 17:35:27 2000 From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 13:35:27 -0400 Subject: Date of Udayana In-Reply-To: <20000710225950.QFGB493.immta3.bellatlantic.net@listserv.liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227059812.23782.17988258777965388513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 10/07/2000 7:00 PM, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK wrote: From: nanda chandran Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:54:01 PDT Subject: Re: Date of Udhayana Birgit Kellner writes : >These two were by no means the last great Buddhist philosophers >around. >For Udayana, in fact, his elder contemporary JJAnazrImitra, at >least some >of whose works were composed before Udayanas', was much >more important. It >is in this context worth noting that JJAnazrImitra >authored a lengthy >treatise called "IzvaravAdaH", which covers about >80 pages in Anantalal >Thakur's edition of J's works (Patna 1987, 2nd >ed.). I don't know whether >Udayana takes up any specific arguments >from JJAnazrI in this context, but >he is certainly known to have >reacted against J's arguments on other >subjects. If you can show that JnAnashrimitra wrote against theism and also show that Udhayana was responding to him, your argument would be more convincing. >At any rate, there is no reason why Udayana in his historical environment >should >not have felt compelled to write a treatise that aims to establish the >existence >of Izvara. As I said before, I find it strange that the top logician of the NyAya school would write on a subject which was not critical at that point in time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Strange though it may seem to some, the index to Anantalal Thakur's 1996 edition of Udayana's nyaayavaartikataatparyaparizuddhi records five references to nyaayakusumaaJjali within the text of nyaayavaartikataatparyaparizuddhi. All five references refer the reader to nyaayakusumaaJjali for its exposition of the matter then under discussion (please note the last index page entry "588", should be corrected to "591"). In two of these references (pages 393 and 417), Udayana explicitly claims that he has already treated or elaborated the matter in nyaayakusumaaJjali. In my book, these amount to a claim of authorship. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America Telephone: 215-747-6204 email: emstern at bellatlantic.net From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Jul 11 13:48:32 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 13:48:32 +0000 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059794.23782.10675231867888960107.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I regret to observe that the debate is getting clouded by emotions. I am also wondering if the prohibited subject AIT/OIT has not made a covert comeback. I do not see why the 2kb limit should not be observed by ALL. And if concessions are to be provided, then they are better spelt out by the Listmaster rather than be left to members' interpretations. Lastly, one person's satire is another person's insult. It is news to me that this list is also meant for promoting Voltaires and Dr. Johnsons. May I humbly suggest that those of us who pride themselves in their satirical capabilities should compose independent works and find publishers (which I am sure they will). At least, they shall pass the humour market test, whereas on the list their talents will go unassessed. The need of the hour is dispassionate argument. Can we go back to it please ? regards, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 11 21:20:40 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 14:20:40 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059819.23782.13129400457109090221.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >You misconstrue the meaning of "opposite" in Shrisha's post. Maybe I did, but my argument was directed more towards the general difficulties in proving by logic the existence or non-existence of a creator God (which I think all the VedAntins had caught on to) and not the specifics of the Dvaitin's dialectic against the NaiyAyika. >?From the start I've never asserted the Udhayana is earlier than Shankara. I was just curious as to how the NaiyAyikas could pursue the argument even after Shankara. Apparently they did. And the references provided by Shrisha and Elliot show the necessary proof. Thanks for all the constructive responses to my queries. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 11 19:33:53 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 14:33:53 -0500 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059814.23782.16922486496237057937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Wujastyk: I am surprised that you are objecting to the word "europeanist" wheras Dr. Witzel and others have used the words hindutva, indian nationalist etc to refer to scholars who do not agree with the AIT. If that is ok, then europeanist is valid too. Europeanists are merely those who subscribe to the eurocentric viewpoint. By Dyaus, I still think that "tuSNiiM bhava" is not polite :) But that decision is upto you and list members are intelligent enough to come to their own conclusions as to who started the scholarly name calling ;) Regards, Subrahmanya. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Tue Jul 11 13:38:55 2000 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 14:38:55 +0100 Subject: Aryan invasion by sea? Message-ID: <161227059796.23782.11203321003681056203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply to Narayan Sriranga Raja: Realizing that the response about Aryans arriving by sea is either a humorous response or an unscholarly barb, I would not normally reply. However, reading some of these unscholarly Indus Valley attacks on respected Indian Studies colleagues--which are not unlike some replies to an otherwise scholarly discussion on Holi I precipitated about two years ago--I feel encouraged to suggest several items. (1) Though likely written down a millennium after their coming to India and therefore subject to texual acculturation (which raises even more issues), the Aryan texts --i.e., the Vedas--suggest a land entrance into India as they discuss their "grandiose (and unlikely) destruction" of the northwest. (2) In their discussions no mention is made of seafaring elements: boats, language of sailors, descriptions of the sea, etc. (3) When taken in their appropriate textual context, the deities to whom the Aryans relate are those of a people who see these deities relating to land, not to sea: sun, rain, flood, vegetation, fire, wind, earth, livestock, nomadic grasslands, etc. We could go on, but my best guess of theriomorphic geography suggests that dolphins and whales do not appear "frequently" in the grassland or mountain regions between the Eastern Europe-Caucasus-Caspian Sea-pre-Persian-Hindu Kush and northwest Indian areas. J. Daniel White Professor of Indian Studies Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Charlotte Charlotte, NC 28223 USA Telephone: (704) 687-4601 Fax: (704) 687-3002 Email: jdwhite at email.uncc.edu >> Dr. Ganesan wrote: > >>Excavations at Lothal have proved that IVC seals were employed >>for trade purposes. Sangam poetry in Tamil mentions the use >>of seals exactly in this manner. > >If seals were employed for trade, >couldn't dolphins, or even whales, >have been employed for large-scale >immigration? > >In other words, could the >notorious Aryan invasion >have been seaborne? Have >any remains of chariots or >spoked wheels been recovered >from under the Indian Ocean? > >Perplexed as usual, > > >Narayan Sriranga Raja. > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jul 11 16:20:45 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 17:20:45 +0100 Subject: Rules of Membership In-Reply-To: <20000710182425.23009.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227059804.23782.7704124590709144586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Subrahmanya S. wrote: > I hope that the same standards apply to all people or > are the Europeanist school members more equal ?. Of course they do. Any more quasi-racist accusations like this and I shall cancel your subscription. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jul 11 16:43:41 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 17:43:41 +0100 Subject: Rules of Membership; Harappan deciphered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059806.23782.11391360326159382042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, George Thompson wrote: > I call the List's attention to K. Elst's very first post to this List > [dated 9/2/99], in which he defends his dear friend "Vishalji", who[...] George, I have to say that the INDOLOGY list is the wrong place to imply that people are "scoundrels". Please rein in. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jul 11 16:46:53 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 17:46:53 +0100 Subject: Rules of Membership; Harappan deciphered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059808.23782.14879967363428492631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It's hard, but could all the participants in this thread p l e a s e calm down, and stick to the discussion of the new book in scholarly terms. Incidentally, it's a pity Subbarayappa's 1996 decipherment didn't get this amount of discussion. I don't agree with that either, but it was more interesting, I think. (B V Subbarayappa, Indus script: its nature and structure (New Era Publications, POB 2459, Madras 600 028, 1996). -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jul 11 16:53:08 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 17:53:08 +0100 Subject: Rules of Membership In-Reply-To: <396B25B0.C9@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227059810.23782.797315868508322426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have discussed the technical setup of this list with the owners in Liverpool, and we have made some changes to help with the volume problem. In future, a 60k attachment will simply not get through to the list. There is now a size limit on messages, expressed in lines. 500 lines is the max. This is longer than I wanted, and is a TECHNICAL upper limit. Messages longer than this will not get to the list. I still recommend 2k as a notional limit, and I'll get shirty with people who persistently or grossly exceed this recommendation. Email attachments of any size are now barred from the list. Finally, HTML code is also barred. So make sure that your mail client is set to plain text (ASCII) only. This is to exclude postings which are double or triple the necessary length because they are duplicated in HTML format. People using Netscape and Internet Explorer as their email clients need to be particularly careful, I believe, since I have been told that the default settings of these clients are to include an HTML version of all messages. ardhamaatralaaghavena ... -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 12 01:38:18 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 18:38:18 -0700 Subject: Dhyani Buddhas ? Message-ID: <161227059825.23782.3614891597016947912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Message from Stephen Hodge dated Tue, 11 Jul 2000 >> I have been having a rather heated discussion with somebody about the use and origins of the term "dhyani Buddha". I have never come across it in any canonical Buddist texts but I believe it was a C19th European invention which should be discarded. << How then might one refer to the traditional grouping of five ?dhyani? Buddhas? Is there mandalic functioning, etc., not of some importance and therefore worth retaining? Ven Tantra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rhayes at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Tue Jul 11 23:09:39 2000 From: rhayes at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Richard Hayes) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 19:09:39 -0400 Subject: Dhyani Buddhas ? In-Reply-To: <00fb01bfeb83$87b9b100$ce6d883e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227059823.23782.10244330313077400932.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: Message from Stephen Hodge dated Tue, 11 Jul 2000 > I have been having a rather heated discussion with somebody about the > use and origins of the term "dhyani Buddha". I have never come across > it in any canonical Buddist texts but I believe it was a C19th > European invention which should be discarded. I cannot point you towards anything authoritative, but I recall having a conversation with Greogroy Schopen about the term, and he claims that it was a 19th century innovation of Eurpoean provenience. I have never seen any evidence that would suggest otherwise. What I find potentially problematic is your suggestion that the term should therefore be discarded. Terminological innovation has been part of the Buddhist tradition for a very long time, and I can see no reason why it should have come to an end in the 18th century or why it should be allowed to take place only in Asia. Needless to say, if one is teaching or writing about classical Indian Buddhism of a particular period, then one should be careful not to introduce anachronistic terms (such as svaatantrika and praasangika and aagamaanusaarin and nyaayaanusaarin) into the conversation without making it very clear that the terms were the innovations of scholastics (who, like ourselves, were faced with coming up with useful heuristic categories in teaching complex material to beginning students). -- Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University rhayes at po-box.mcgill.ca From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Jul 11 20:09:47 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 21:09:47 +0100 Subject: From Vishal Agrawal Message-ID: <161227059818.23782.11782685940439559608.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:01:55 PDT From: Vishal Agarwal To: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Subject: Request for a favor Requested Dr. Wujastyk, Please post it for me on the Indology list. Kindly also request the members of the Indology list to desist from dragging my name in their discussions. Thanks Vishal ________________ Dear List Members, While I was expelled from the list a long time back, I certainly have a right to defend myself against serious allegations made against me by a veteran list member Dr. Thompson. He says: "I call the List's attention to K. Elst's very first post to this List [dated 9/2/99], in which he defends his dear friend "Vishalji", who had just finished threatening me, clearly and directly and publically, by reminding me of the wisdom of the principle of self-preservation; " Note that 1. My statement was sent PRIVATELY (and not publicly) to two list members including Dr. Vassilkov, who reproduced it on the public forum without my permission. 2. The statement was not intended for Dr. Thompson in particular, it was actually meant for all Indologists. 3. The statement was NOT a threat and my intention was solely to state that in the intellectual/academic arena of India, the Indologists might become irrelevant if the resort to non academic reactions to the writings of their opponents. I was innocently unaware that the phrase 'self preservation' is restricted to preservation of one's physical self only, and cannot be used metaphorically to preserve one's intellectual self. This was clarified publicly AND privately subsequently. I am appending the relevant paragraphs of my original email to let the members judge for themselves, keeping in mind my subsequent clarifications. And again, if my words caused any anguish to him, I apologize. I do find it odd that Dr. Thompson should persist with such misrepresentation though. 4. Dr. Fosse clarified in a private email to me that Dr. Thompson himself took a light view of that statement at that time and gave me the benefit of doubt. I therefore fail to understand why he has chosen to drag me into his dirty polemics at this stage. If Mr. Fosse permits, I can send a copy of his email to Dr. Thompson. Again, I reiterate that I can back my statements with copies of all my private and public correspondence with him and with others. I request Dr. Thompson not to defame me unnecessarily and indecently. If he has any objection to what I said, the courts of law are open in the United States of America. Sincerely, Vishal Agarwal ____________________ APPENDIX: My original statement sent via email to Dr. Vassilkov and Dr. Thompson GT: "How much longer must we endure the waste of time involved in restuing his banalities over and over and over again? And what about the accompanying insults? How long shall we bite our tongues while this sort of charlatan persaudes all of India that it is Atlantis all over again?" VA: "You seem to have acknowledged the fact that the AIT theory is drawing increasing derision in India. It is in the interest of your own self preservation that you give scholarly responses to your opponents rather than use pejorative terms against them. Since you have not posted any response to them, where does the question of wasting time arise?? For a start, why not respond to my questions on the date of RV proposed by you. Using these very linguistic criteria, Mary Boyce places Zarathushtra in the 14th Cent. B.C.E. (A fact acknowledged by a prominent list member in a private communication to me)". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Jul 11 21:58:37 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 00 22:58:37 +0100 Subject: Dhyani Buddhas ? Message-ID: <161227059821.23782.5549742168233433566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been having a rather heated discussion with somebody about the use and origins of the term "dhyani Buddha". I have never come across it in any canonical Buddist texts but I believe it was a C19th European invention which should be discarded. Any comments and views about the appropriateness of the term would be welcome. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jul 12 03:21:31 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 04:21:31 +0100 Subject: Dhyani Buddhas ? Message-ID: <161227059827.23782.11659528796374396811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ven Tantra wrote: > How then might one refer to the traditional grouping > of five "dhyani" Buddhas? Is there mandalic > functioning, etc., not of some importance and > therefore worth retaining? My personal feeling is that it is hard enough to understand half or more of Buddhist technical terms without confusing the issue even further with neologisms. From what I have seen, there is already a perfectly good term used in the tantras and elsewhere -- "jina". I also believe that the term was modelled on terms like the "yoga / yogi" pair and so does not mean "meditation Buddha" as many would have it. Anyway, are the jinas or dhyaani Buddhas actually abiding in dhyaana when they are in the mandalas ? Just a quibble, but would it not be more accurate to call them samaadhi buddhas IF that is what they are doing ? In my own limited reading of texts, I have never come across any mention of Buddhas engaging in dhyaana and, in my understanding, there is a qualitative difference between dhyaana and samaadhi. Still, some people seem very attached to the term so I am probably fighting a lost cause -- looks like heuristic neologisms win out over terminological accuracy. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From rpeck at NECA.COM Wed Jul 12 13:32:52 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 09:32:52 -0400 Subject: svaamaaraama Message-ID: <161227059838.23782.9045978341780541021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can any one tell me the date and origin of the hathayogapradiipikaa? Thanks, Bob Peck From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 12 08:49:44 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 09:49:44 +0100 Subject: Advertisement: lectureship at SOAS Message-ID: <161227059834.23782.17542265144284727084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> =============================== SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London, WC1H 0XG UK DEPARTMENT OF THE STUDY OF RELIGIONS Lectureship in Ancient Indian Religions Salary: UK Pounds 20,750 25,250 p.a. inclusive Vacancy 00/63 Applications are invited for a newly established Lectureship in Ancient Indian Religions within the Department of the Study of Religions. The successful candidate will be well-grounded in Vedic Studies with expertise in classical Indology. In addition to teaching courses in Vedic Religion, the appointee will be expected to contribute more generally to teaching and supervision in Indian religions. Evidence of high-quality published research and of competence in Sanskrit are essential. Application forms are available from the Personnel office, School of Oriental and African Studies, at the address above (Tel: 0207 898 4144, Fax: 0207 898 4149, e-mail address: personnel at soas.ac.uk). All applications must be sent directly to the Personnel Department. Overseas candidates may apply directly by letter supported by a full curriculum vitae and the names, addresses, telephone and fax numbers and email addresses of three referees. Closing date: Friday 8th September 2000 SOAS is an equal opportunities employer and welcomes applications from the disabled, ethnic minorities and women. ============================================ From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Jul 12 09:46:52 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 11:46:52 +0200 Subject: Dhyani Buddhas ? In-Reply-To: <019401bfebb3$dbdc8980$ce6d883e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227059836.23782.4451963147111513123.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > they are doing ? In my own limited reading of texts, I have never > come across any mention of Buddhas engaging in dhyaana and, in my > understanding, there is a qualitative difference between dhyaana and > samaadhi. Still, some people seem very attached to the term so I am > probably fighting a lost cause -- looks like heuristic neologisms win > out over terminological accuracy. It has been said that Brian H. Hodgson introduced the therms "dhyanibuddha" and "dhyanibodhisattva". You find them, for instance, in Hodgson's "Notices of the languages, literature, and religion of Nepal and Tibet", first published in: Asiatic Researches (1828). I am using here the collective volume of Hodgsons articles published under the same title (Repr.: New Delhi: Manjusri Publ. House, 1972 [Bibliotheca Himalayica. Ser. II, vol. 7]), p. 28 seqq.). Probably on the authority of Hodgson it was used by Burnouf (see the index of his "Le Lotus de la Bonne Loi", s.v.) and, among others, by Carl Friedrich K?ppen: Die Religion des Buddha. Vol. 2. Berlin 1859, p. 25 seqq. (many instances in the index, s.v.). In a note to his work "Monk, householder, and tantric priest : Newar Buddhism and its hierarchy of ritual" (Cambridge 1992), p. 373, n. 1 to chap. 9), David Gellner writes: "Hodgson introduced the term 'Dhyani Buddha' which has become current in Western writings"; Gellner doubts that it is actually used by Newar Buddhists today. I hope this helps. Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 D-53113 Bonn Germany / Deutschland From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jul 12 07:28:15 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 12:58:15 +0530 Subject: viveka Message-ID: <161227059830.23782.4227455255200539449.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NO regulation or rule can substitute for viveka, the personal ability to separate right from wrong.What use is intellectual activity if it does not promote good sense, detachment and a sense of humour.People should not take their research very seiously. More importantly ,they should not take themselves very seriously., Rajesh Kochhar ################## Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 12 20:16:52 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 13:16:52 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059848.23782.1570661012853637246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >*I* don't have to do anything; *you* have to provide evidence, by which I >mean >solid textual work, a) for why the questions you raised are actually worth >investigating and b) for why the claims you advance are reasonable. I can >point >you to several publications that might assist you in this query, but that's >all >I can do. You're threading on ground that research has not yet sufficiently >covered, so either you do research yourself, or you revise your claims in >order >to factor in the uncertainty regarding whether or not Udayana reacted to >JJAnazrI in NKus. Unless you do one of these things, I agree that "all this >is >quite unnecessary", and unless you have any further *specific* evidence to >come >up with, I for my part consider this thread closed. My argument was basically this : 1. There has been a long history of argument for and against a creator God in Indian philosophy. 2. Just before Shankara, KumArilla Bhatta had argued so vigorously against a creator God. And it is significant that Shankara accepts a creator God on the strength of the shruti as it can neither be proved nor denied using logic. 3. All the VedAntins after Shankara also toe the same line. So it is in this context that I asked whether Udhayana's arguments on this case is suited to its time. For you to argue against it you must have produced some evidence either to show that the argument was still alive even after Shankara or some other evidence to show Udhayana lived after Shankara. But apart from a vague reference to JnAnashrimitra, whose arguments you were not familiar with, you brought out no other constructive contribution to the discussion. Instead you simply denied the validity of my argument and also ridiculed me of having little knowledge of Udhayana. Contrary to your claim that I'm extending a thesis, if you go through my posts, it can be clearly seen that I've only questions. But it is your denial of the base of my questions, which is in its own way, a thesis. So the point is not that I should do research (which incidentally is what my questions might lead to), but that if you do not have enough knowledge to argue with, you should not butt into the discussion. Or atleast refrain from making unreasonable accusations. With regards to Vidhya's response, he has an axe to grind and it is obvious at the end of his message. Atleast Birgitte pointed out JnAnishrimitra, but Vidhya has nothing but forceful words against my questions. He ignores all the arguments that I point out and says I have no case at all! The logical development of Indian philosophy and the philsophical environs that I pointed out are dismissed as "environs bogey"! According to him the passage of time has no effect on any system of thought. Almost all systems in Indian philsophy have changed with the passage of time. They might stick on to some fundementals, but quite a few of the concepts propounded by the school undergoes change with the development of philsophical understanding. In somecases, even the fundemetals undergo drastic change, which sometimes gives rise to new schools. For instance early SAmkhya was non-theistic pluralism. But we can see efforts by GaudapAda to reduce the plurality of souls to one single soul. Also VijnAnabhikshu makes theism a vital part of the system and replaces the original SAmkhyan ideal of liberation by knowledge with bhakti. Such changes can be seen in almost all systems. It would be naive to think that PrashatapAda is only repeating KanAda's arguments or VAtsyAyana - Gautama's. They have their own contributions to make which in somecases contradicts the earlier tradition of their own school. Even in Advaita, Shankara doesn't accept GaudapAda's equation of the waking state with the dream state and takes care to criticize it. He gives different arguments for proving the unreality of the world, which has its own implications on the system. Actually one can go to the extent of saying that the philosophical development of a school depended on the philosophical development of rival schools. Most schools were quite in tune with the philosophical development of rival schools in their time. It is primarily in answer to the criticisms of their school's doctrines either from external or internal sources that philosophers corrected or modified and hence developed their schools doctrines. It is in this sense that I felt that since the most of the philosophical schools had realized the difficulty in trying to prove the existence of Ishvara by logic, the NyAya too which would have abandoned the issue and turned its attention towards other issues. Apparently they didn't and Shrisha has provided the necessary evidence to prove so. That's fine. But all this has no meaning for Vidhya, for his concentration is firmly upon the KAnchi/Shringeri rivalry. He either thinks that I'm trying to undermine the current dating of Shankara or that I'm trying to prove Chandrasekhara Saraswati's statement that Udhayana lived before Shankara. While I've my own doubts regarding those issues, that was hardly my intention in this thread. As I have explained, it is only the development of Indian philosophy which gave rise to my questions. A few months back when somebody wrote about the spiritual unity underlying Indian philosophy and quoted GaudapAda, it was Vidhya who opposed it. And on this thread itself he has criticized me for entertaining a notion of "one Indian philosophy". When I point out that authors of rival schools argued one against one another and also learnt from one another and that's the way Indian philosophy developed, he simply says that I'm only repeating his own words and points to his URL on GaudapAda! According to him Advaita was influenced "heavily" by NyAya. When I question the basis of this, with a reference to an earlier discussion, he's quick to divert the attention to the earlier discussion and fails to give any evidence of the "heavy" influence of NyAya on Advaita. Fine, we need not continue the discussion on the relation between Buddhism and Advaita here, but how about supporting with evidence your claim that Advaita was "heavily" influenced by NyAya? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jul 12 07:57:07 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 13:27:07 +0530 Subject: question of roots Message-ID: <161227059832.23782.15622896709362835893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It has been said that the roots of the Ealy Harappan Phase go back to Mehrgarh,even though there a gap between the closure of the Baluchistan tradition and the beginning of the Harappan. If the Harappan script is related to the Vedic tradition, how far back do its roots go? Rajesh Kochhar ############### Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 12 21:04:25 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 14:04:25 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059850.23782.10022025216945578401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: w.r.t. me- >According to him Advaita was influenced "heavily" by NyAya. When I >question the basis of this, with a reference to an earlier discussion, Nanda, the said earlier discussion didn't take place on this list, and it was totally inappropriate of you to bring it up in response to a peripheral comment that I made. >he's quick to divert the attention to the earlier discussion and fails >to give any evidence of the "heavy" influence of NyAya on Advaita. I have no wish to grind any axe, except perhaps to wish that amateurs of Indian origin, like you and I, keep up some basic standards on this list. You still haven't responded to my question about your personal view regarding the probable date of Sankara. And you haven't taken into account my comments that Udayana refers to Bhaskara (who was post-Sankara, by the way). Surely, that was news to you, right? I don't have to justify Birgit Kellner to you, but if you think her response was vague, do realize that your questions were even more so. A little piece of advice, perhaps unsolicited, and that you will perhaps reject immediately - statements based on "flavor", "environs" and "strangeness" do not cut any ice, especially when you give the impression of not having done any primary research yourself. As for the influence of nyAya on advaita, let me point to some basic issues. You can come to your own conclusions. 1. Is liberation intrinsically bliss or is it an experience of bliss? Compare Sankara and Vatsyayana on this. 2. Check P. K. Sundaram's word-index to Sankara's commentary on the brahmasUtra, for references to the nyAyasUtras. 3. The properties of the five "elements". Compare Sankara's comments in upadeSasAhasrI and his commentary on taittirIya upanishad, with the sAMkhya and nyAya views of AkASa, vAyu etc. See which school of thought Sankara is closer to on this issue. That should do for now, Vidyasankar ps. I put "elements" in quotation marks, only in order to avoid confusion with contemporary scientific views of what is an element. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Jul 12 18:05:49 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 14:05:49 -0400 Subject: New book Message-ID: <161227059844.23782.6797137007630324975.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Inoculation against chicken pox was practiced in India and China before the practice was discovered by western medicine. A book by dharampal lists extensive records kept by the british on innoculation practices in India. Weakened germ cultures were mantained in Varanasi and people were sent out as far as bengal to innoculate people. The cultures are referred to as consisting of animaliculae as told to a british chronicler by an indian physician. I also remember the the story of visuchika (cholera). VisUchika the RAkshashi ( Demoness ) assumes the form of a needle , enters the body of her victims and devours them from inside. I heard this story long back from my great grand mother and want to know the source of this story. RB From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Jul 12 13:46:59 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 14:46:59 +0100 Subject: 16th century European contacts with Hinduism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059840.23782.3773143480711903486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members >Someone has asked me: what language would Pico and his visitor have used to >talk to one another? Arabic now seems the most likely, perhaps with the aid of an interpreter. Steve Farmer tells me that Pico had studied Arabic, among many other languages. The Indian must presumably have picked up Arabic on his long journey via the Middle East. > >One theme that seems worthy of exploration is use of the word >brahman/brahmin, and its various spellings, to represent brAhmaNa, and the >ideas with which its associated. > >A scholar who contacted Steve Farmer through the Renaissance List has >pointed out the following, from Sir Thomas Browne, Hydriotaphia, Urne-Buriall, 1658, p. 7 >> The Indian Brahmans seemed too great friends unto fire, who burnt >> themselves alive, and thought it the noblest way to end their dayes in fire; >> according to the expression of the Indian, burning himself at Athens, in his >> last words upon the pyre unto the amazed spectators, Thus I make my selfe >> Immortall. > It turns out that in the 1st edition, it's spelt Brachmans. So there is nothing here that could not be found in the Greeks, and indeed Browne puts a note in the margin, after "Athens": "And therefore the Inscription of his Tombe was made accordingly Nic. Damasc. [Nicholas of Damascus]" However the paragraph that follows includes a reference to India (though not to Hinduism) that purports to be contemporary: >But the Chaldeans the great Idolaters of fire, abhorred the burning of >their carcasses, as a pollution of that Deity. The Persian Magi declined >it upon the like scruple, and being only sollicitous about their bones, >exposed their flesh to the prey of Birds and Dogges. And the Persees now >in India, which expose their bodies unto Vultures, and endure not so much >a feretra or Beers of Wood, the proper Fuell of fire, are led on with such >niceties... The latter part is a clear reference to the funerary practices of the Parsees, who didn't settle in India till 936 CE. Browne doesn't give a source for this, but it must at least be post-classical. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 12 22:24:47 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 15:24:47 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059855.23782.16097181350337829948.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Nanda, the said earlier discussion didn't take place on this >list, and it was totally inappropriate of you to bring it up in >response to a peripheral comment that I made. Vidhya, why is your comment peripheral while my comment about our earlier discussion, isn't? >You still haven't responded to my question about your personal view >regarding the probable date of Sankara. I generally desist from having views on such subjects. But I've a quite a few questions with regards to the current dating. I've pointed out a few of those in an earlier post. >I don't have to justify Birgit Kellner to you, but if you think her >response was vague, do realize that your questions were even more so. Is it vague that there is a long history of argument for and against a creator God in Indian philosophy? Is it vague that KumArilla had argued rather forcefully against the concept? Is it vague that while Shankara criticizes arguments denying a creator, he refuses to put forward any arguments of his own in favor of a creator , which shows the reason why he takes refuge in the shruti for proving the existence of the creator? Is it vague that all VedAntins after Shankara too toe the same line? Is it vague that the philosophical environment during that time had gone past the creator/no-creator argument? In this context is it not reasonable to expect the NaiyAyikas to catch on to the situation and desist from arguing further? >A little piece of advice, perhaps unsolicited, and that you >will perhaps reject immediately - statements based on "flavor", >"environs" and "strangeness" do not cut any ice, especially when >you give the impression of not having done any primary research >yourself. You're only trying trivialize the issue. >1. Is liberation intrinsically bliss or is it an experience of >bliss? Compare Sankara and Vatsyayana on this. I do not have the NyAya bhAshyam on hand. But AFAIK, for the NaiyAyika the self in essence is unconscious. But without consciousness, how can there be any experience of bliss? So is VAtsyAyana arguing that liberation is bliss itself? >2. Check P. K. Sundaram's word-index to Sankara's commentary on >the brahmasUtra, for references to the nyAyasUtras. >3. The properties of the five "elements". Compare Sankara's >comments in upadeSasAhasrI and his commentary on taittirIya >upanishad, with the sAMkhya and nyAya views of AkASa, vAyu etc. >See which school of thought Sankara is closer to on this issue. PrAkriti, the gunas, the bhutas etc are acceptable only in the vyavahAra level in Advaita. In its paramArthika all these are unreal and hence cannot be said as the core principles of Advaita. The bed rock of Advaita lies in its denial of reality to the phenomenal world and asserting the non-dual reality which transcends the phenomenal world. Some people make the mistake of thinking that Advaita means only the non-dual identity of Atman or Brahman with the individual soul. That the soul in essence is reality itself is taught by all the Astika schools. So why are they also not called Advaita then? No, Advaita in its true sense means the non-dual identity of the phenomenal with the noumenal - samsAra with nirvAna. One without an other and hence devoid of plurality. Reality according to Advaita is pure consciousness and beyond the grasp of the pramAnas. NyAya in contrast asserts the existence of infinite individual non-conscious souls and infinite atoms each different from the other, a creator God distinct from both the souls and atoms, the validity of the pramAnas etc. And its views on the shruti is also something which Advaita will never accept. You cannot even bridge the two systems with a barge pole! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 12 15:24:38 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 16:24:38 +0100 Subject: New book Message-ID: <161227059843.23782.4587065331957232263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lawrence I. Conrad and Dominik Wujastyk (eds), Contagion: perspectives from pre-modern societies, Ashgate, 2000, Aldershot, Burlington USA, Singapore, Sydney. ISBN 0-7546-0258-3. Contents: Preface; Introduction; Part I: China: Epidemics, weather and contagion in traditional Chinese medicine, Shigehisa Kuriyama; Dispersing the foetal toxin of the body: conceptions of smallpox aetiology in pre-modern China, Chia-Feng Chang; The threatening stranger: Kewu in pre-modern Chinese paediatrics, Christopher Cullen; Part II: India: Notions of "contagion" in classical Indian medical texts, Rahul Peter Das; Does ancient Indian medicine have a theory of contagion?, Kenneth G. Zysk; Part III: Middle East and Europe: Old Testament "leprosy", contagion and sin, Elinor Lieber; Did the Greeks have a word for it?, Vivian Nutton; A ninth-century Muslim scholar's discussion of contagion, Lawrence I. Conrad; Contagion and leprosy: myth, ideas and evolution in medieval minds and societies, Fran?ois-Olivier Touati; Contributors; Index. For more details, and ordering, see http://www.ashgate.com/html/bookdetail.cfm?isbn=0754602583 -- Dominik Wujastyk From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 12 23:43:27 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 16:43:27 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059857.23782.16395483078527740574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >>Nanda, the said earlier discussion didn't take place on this >>list, and it was totally inappropriate of you to bring it up in >>response to a peripheral comment that I made. > >Vidhya, why is your comment peripheral while my comment about our >earlier discussion, isn't? For all your interest in advaita, you have a peculiar knack for doing various kinds of adhyAsa. It would be nice if you moved to apavAda. My comment was peripheral; your response to it was inappropriate. The two words mean different things, you know. 1. My comment that nyAya has influenced advaita was in response to your statement that viSishTAdvaita is heavily influenced by nyAya. This has little to do with Udayana's date, as I also pointed out in the same mail. Ergo, it was peripheral. 2. Our discussion about advaita and buddhism was on another list. Ergo, your reference to it here was inappropriate. Do maintain some viveka, regarding the mailing lists you participate in. >I generally desist from having views on such subjects. But I've a >quite a few questions with regards to the current dating. I've >pointed out a few of those in an earlier post. It looks like the Sahara will turn green before you have some answers, and not just questions. >Is it vague that there is a long history of argument for and against >a creator God in Indian philosophy? As long as men live and think, there will be arguments for and against a creator, from various perspectives. Look at the current argument between creationists and evolutionists in the "Bible-belt" in the USA. >Is it vague that the philosophical environment during that time had >gone past the creator/no-creator argument? That is indeed an assumption on your part, based on very vague ideas of what constitutes philosophical environment. Moreover, if you desist from having views on dates of people who lived in the past, pray what time are you thinking of, in your phrase "during that time"? Finally, given that you claim to have acknowledged the references given by some others who responded to you, don't you think you should update your views on "philosophical environment"? Or do your original assumptions and expectations still continue to be "reasonable"? >In this context is it not reasonable to expect the NaiyAyikas to catch on >to >the situation and desist from arguing further? You apparently don't see why the parataH prAmANya vAda was fundamental to nyAya, or why it was never given up. Another one of those things that I pointed out in an earlier mail, but which you have chosen to ignore, in favor of finding fault with imaginary axes. Back to the influence of nyAya on advaita. I am not trying to "bridge the two systems". This sort of "everybody said the same thing" is not my cup of tea. All I'm saying is that there has been an influence of nyAya on advaita. Not only will you find this in Sankara with respect to classical nyAya, but also in late authors like Madhusudana Sarasvati, with respect to navya-nyAya. That does not mean that advaita and nyAya are one, or that they need to be made one. For that matter, you can also find influences of other schools of thought on Sankara. As for the three issues in nyAya and advaita that I mentioned in my earlier mail, you can do your own research, if and when you obtain the necessary texts. Finally, one small request. I am tired of being referred to as "Vidhya" by you. I would like to be called Vidya, if not Vidyasankar. You may want to put an h after the s, but please don't put it after the d in my name. I never see you spelling your own name as "Nandha". I notice that you have also converted Birgit to Birgitte, perhaps to show her that you can add extra letters to everybody's name but yours. Is it too much to ask that you put some effort into your spelling, or must we all accept your idiosyncratic way of doing things as reasonable? Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From tawady at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 12 19:16:32 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 20:16:32 +0100 Subject: Need email address of Dr. Cyril Hromnik Message-ID: <161227059846.23782.9252876928553438597.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Cyril Hromnik, a South Africa based American historian who has written about Indo-African connections. I am looking for his email address. Thanks. An article about him available on the Web. http://www.mg.co.za/mg/news/97oct1/7oc-india_origins.html From GthomGt at CS.COM Thu Jul 13 01:14:40 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 00 21:14:40 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership; Harappan deciphered Message-ID: <161227059859.23782.9530814975345158998.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, whether it likes it or not, the List now knows what I think of K. Elst, as well as his friend, whose name, by the way, I promise *never* to mention again on this list [so he can call off his lawyers]. I will take Dominik's good advice to 'rein it in.' I will also try to find viveka. But I will continue to say what I think is true, as I tried to do in my last post, which unfortunately was also tainted by anger. Now, anger is certainly not a virtue [incompatible as it is with viveka, to be sure]. And even though this is a scholarly list where anger certainly has no place,.I just cannot permit myself as a moral person to concede the moral high ground to a person who actually thinks that Gandhi's attempt to reconcile with Muslims was a retreat from morality. I just can't do it. If insisting on this gets me removed from this List, well, I can give the List up also, if I have to. Maybe it would lead to my getting more work done [now, *that* is voice of the scholar in me talking, firmly taking the reins away from the little moralist in me, whom I hope to subdue, sternly, by means of all kinds of difficult and distracting niyogas]. Best wishes and with all due prAyazcittas, George Thompson In a message dated 7/11/00 12:44:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK writes: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, George Thompson wrote: > > > I call the List's attention to K. Elst's very first post to this List > > [dated 9/2/99], in which he defends his dear friend "Vishalji", who[...] > > George, I have to say that the INDOLOGY list is the wrong place to imply > that people are "scoundrels". Please rein in. > From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT Wed Jul 12 22:16:48 2000 From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 00:16:48 +0200 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059853.23782.227282349505115570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: > My argument was basically this : > 1. There has been a long history of argument for and against a creator God > in Indian philosophy. > 2. Just before Shankara, KumArilla Bhatta had argued so vigorously against a > creator God. And it is significant that Shankara accepts a creator God on > the strength of the shruti as it can neither be proved nor denied using > logic. > 3. All the VedAntins after Shankara also toe the same line. > > So it is in this context that I asked whether Udhayana's arguments on this > case is suited to its time. For the sake of clarification: The first message I read from you was advancing the idea that Udayana could not have lived at the time (appr. 11th century) he is supposed to have lived, because it would have been unreasonable/impossible/unthinkable for him to still advance arguments in favour of the existence of Izvara given that ZaGkara had accepted the impossibility of proving the existence of Izvara on logical grounds. At the very least, you thereby questioned the established dates for Udayana. So you did actually go a step further, not only asking whether Udayana's arguments are "suited to his time", but questioning, on the assumption that they are *not* suited to his time, the dates of Udayana. I understand from your recent messages that the information provided by Elliot Stern convinced you that there are good and strong reasons to date Udayana in the way it is commonly done. I have in my first reply to your initial "thesis" (or "question") simply argued that, on general methodological grounds, a revision of an established dating requires a different type of evidence than such atmospheric considerations like "these arguments do not match the spirit of the times". This leaves us with the issue of whether Udayana's arguments are "suited to his time", a question that on its own, without drawing further conclusions, is quite vague and does not to me look like a promising candidate for fruitful discussion. But at any rate, in connection with this issue you then mentioned that Buddhism was on its way out by ZaGkara's time and mentioned as last Buddhist representatives ZAntarakSita and KamalazIla. So Buddhist opposition, you implied, could not have been what Udayana argued against either. It was in this connection that I called to your attention the existence of JJAnazrImitra, who is known to have been criticized by Udayana in other contexts, and who *may* also have been criticized by Udayana in this context. *If* one is in general looking for historical reasons why Udayana still advanced arguments in favour of Izvara even though others did not, the arguments provided by JJAnazrI, so far unstudied, are one possibility that one must take into account. I also called to your attention the existence of other NaiyAyikas such as Trilocana, who before Udayana (and after ZaGkara) apparently also advanced arguments in favour of Izvara - also something to take into account in examining this issue. Anyway, good luck and much success with whatever further research you might want to carry out on this subject, Birgit Kellner Institute for Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Vienna University From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jul 13 08:42:07 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 09:42:07 +0100 Subject: New book In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5937@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227059865.23782.4403767582157214207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > Inoculation against chicken pox was practiced in India and China > before the practice was discovered by western medicine. I'm afraid this is rather a muddle. Inoculation against smallpox (not chicken pox, which isn't normally lethal) was practiced in India at least as far back as the eighteenth century, when it is reported by Holwell in 1767 (J. Z. Holwell, An account of the manner of inoculating for the small pox in the East Indies with... observations on the... mode of treating that disease in those parts, London, 1767.) Probably the method was practiced earlier, but there's no historical evidence for it. The earliest evidence for smallpox inoculation (completely different from vaccination, of course) comes from Chinese sources. More on this in Chang's paper in the recently published Contagion book. Inoculation was never "discovered" by western medicine. The practice was noticed in the bazaars of Istanbul by Lady Wortley Montague in the mid-eighteenth century, and she had her children inoculated. She then carried out a personal campaign to promote inoculation back in England. This was partly successful, though controversial. Inoculation was eclipsed from the late 1790s by Jenner's famous discoveries. > A book by dharampal lists extensive records kept by the british on > innoculation practices in India. Weakened germ cultures were mantained > in Varanasi and people were sent out as far as bengal to innoculate > people. Dharampal's book does not list such records, unfortunately. At least not his book on science in the 18th century. I only wish such "extensive British records of inoculation practices" did exist, but they don't. One has to scour contemporary newspapers (materials from about 1800 onwards), travellers narratives, and other contemporary sources to find such information. Dharampal's book is very interesting, incidentally. There's much more written on contagion and epidemics in India. A quite large secondary literature. No excuse not to read (as usual!). Start with David Arnold's excellent Colonizing the Body, and continue with Ranger & Slack, Epidemics and Ideas. Etc. etc. etc. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Jul 13 04:23:05 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 09:53:05 +0530 Subject: thoreau Message-ID: <161227059861.23782.10115768357675400559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for exact reference to Thoreau's quotation,"A man is wise with the wisdom of his time only,and ignorant with its ignorance".I would appreciate if a knowledgable Listist could help. Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Thu Jul 13 19:57:52 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 09:57:52 -1000 Subject: Aryan invasion by sea? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059890.23782.14863503596383967326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, N. Ganesan wrote: >Raja wrote: >> If seals were employed for trade, >> couldn't dolphins, or even whales, > have been employed for large-scale >> immigration? >> >> In other words, could the >> notorious Aryan invasion >> have been seaborne? Have >> any remains of chariots or >> spoked wheels been recovered >> from under the Indian Ocean? > I fail to understand this, as I did not mention anything > about Aryan invasion at all! It was just a joke. Apparently din't serve its porpoise. :-( Apologies for any confusion. Raja. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Jul 13 04:33:14 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 10:03:14 +0530 Subject: variolation Message-ID: <161227059863.23782.10310524635193604263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Variolation was being practised in various countries. It was introduced into Europe from Turkey. by Lady Montagu in circa 1720. 2. J Z Holwell wrote an account of the Indian practice in 1757.It was reprinted by Dharampal in his edited volume(1983) :Indian Science and Technology in the 18th Century: Some Contemporary European Accounts.(Hyderabad:Academy of Gandhian Studies) Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Rajarshi Banerjee To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Thursday, July 13, 2000 12:01 AM Subject: New book >Inoculation against chicken pox was practiced in India and China before the >practice was discovered by western medicine. > >A book by dharampal lists extensive records kept by the british on >innoculation practices in India. Weakened germ cultures were mantained in >Varanasi and people were sent out as far as bengal to innoculate people. > >The cultures are referred to as consisting of animaliculae as told to a >british chronicler by an indian physician. > >I also remember the the story of visuchika (cholera). VisUchika the >RAkshashi ( Demoness ) assumes the form of a needle , enters the body of her >victims and devours them from inside. I heard this story long back from my >great grand mother and want to know the source of this story. > >RB From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 13 17:12:52 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 10:12:52 -0700 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059881.23782.534664537357559672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >While such a speech in that forum would not normally belong in Indology, >the >"70 centuries" of brahminic contribution proudly mentioned by one of the >leading neurosurgeons of India should be of some concern to Indologists. > This is contemporary Indian politics, mixed with generic Indian conceptions of long yugas. After all, 50 centuries of Kali Yuga have already passed! The speech does not belong in Indology, and need not concern Indologists, unless of course, one wants to avoid being operated upon by a doctor who says such things. I don't think anybody here needs brain surgery, so Dr. Ramamurthi's comments are best left aside. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jul 13 14:27:11 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 10:27:11 -0400 Subject: Rare 11th century Sanskrit transcripts under threat Message-ID: <161227059874.23782.3565541321228491218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following news story, transmitted by the Sanskrit list (Utah) maybe of interest to list members. Read 'manuscripts' instead of 'transcripts' (palm leaf and birch bark): ========================================================================= > Rare 11th century transcripts under threat > 09th July 2000 18.57 IST > Financial constraints and alleged apathy of the authorities concerned > may lead to the loss of valuable 11th century transcripts and documents > kept in the Kameshwar Singh Sanskrit University, the Mithila research > institute and the Lalit Narain Mithila University in Darbhanga. > > Official sources here said these transcripts and documents, pertaining > to different cultures all over the world, were given by the erstwhile > 'Maharajadhiraj' of Darbhanga Kameshwar Singh. > > Fumigation of the valuable articles for preserving them has not been > undertaken for the past several years, partly due to financial > constraints being faced by these institutions, putting a question mark > on the very existence of these articles. > > The transcripts, written on ''Bhojpatra and Tampatra'' and dating back > to the 11th century, were collected by the erstwhile ruler of Darbhanga > from different parts of the world for his library. > > It was he who established the Mithila research institute for > development and higher research into the Sanskrit language. The > foundation stone of this institute was laid by the first president of > independent India Babu Rajendra Prasad on June 16, 1951. > > Due to the efforts of 'Maharajadhiraj', 14,000 rare transcripts and > 29,000 rare books were collected for the institute library, also > housing books on astrology, philosophy and other subjects. > > Ink prepared from the blood of buffaloes were used for Tamil version of > the 'Durga Saptashati' and 'Vishnu Purana'. > > 'Bodh Mahayana' in 28 sections as also the Bhagwad Gita written on tree > barks were among the rare collections in the maharaja's library. > > Similarly, Kameshwar Singh Darbhanga Sanskrit university's library and > museum had also received historical treasure trove from the then > Darbhanga ruler, including Shrimad Bhagwat Gita written by renowned > litterateur Vidyapati, Tatavachintamani of the 11th century, Geet > Govindam with illustrations and some other transcripts. > > Altogether 5562 transcripts written on 'Bhojpatra' and 'Talpatra' > recording progress of different cultures were made available. Also > 15000 rare books were given to this library. > > The Lalit Narain Mithila university houses the collections done by a > former British prime minister, made possible by the efforts of the > 'Maharajadhiraj'. Sources said the erstwhile ruler had provided 70,000 > rare books to the university library, which make it eligible for the > status of a 'national library'. > -UNI ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Jul 13 14:39:37 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 10:39:37 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059876.23782.1632216320195263755.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> R. Kocchar, always the detached scientist, is entirely right in admonishing us to use some VIVEKA, restrain and discrimination, (though I am not so sure whether this is indeed used by those who call themselves Vivek Kendra, see below. Pun intended?). Agreed, including his advice on personal self-deprecation and humility. You'll know the old adage "Except for you and me, all the others [in our field] are crazy, -- and sometimes I doubt about you," which I have since long expanded, in teasing friends, students etc., with "and sometimes, -- about me." *** Joking aside, I think Mr. Subrahmanya's case and that of his brothers in spirit (Tarek Wani and Vishal Agarwal) is different, it is Slander and, worse, Libel. (See my 'gem collection' message to this list of Feb.13, 2000). They variously alleged in separate messages of Feb. 11, 2000: "Witzel's panzer divisions", "Witzel has 'managed' to find Aryan chariot panzers", "Witzels are free to conjure images of fair skinned Kashmiri/Irani/Kashmiri looking IE speakers hurtling down the Khyber on the chariots and overwhelming the proto Mundas or the Para Mundas". As indicated in my 2/13/2000 message, I have not written any such thing. (-- and, with R.Kochhar, who cares anyhow?) Since Febr. 13, Subrahmanya (and the others) have had time to *prove* their cased by giving quotations from my writings. None has done, including Subrahmanya, whom I have incited to do so a few days ago, -- even while invoking Varuna, the Lord of Truth, and while not being able to address him, S., face to face but only by calling him, aakaazena, from a distance, with Pluti. Taittiriya Upanisad 1.11 admonishes any graduate of Vedic study: satyam vada! and, when wrongly accused, to resort to restrained, knowlegable Brahmins, which I have done here, to this Parishad of Vidvant-s. Instead, Subrahmanya, Incitatus, has used the old discussion technique (on this list, certainly worthy of *tertiary* level research) to shift topics and attack sub-issues, and to complain. However, until Subrahmanya *proves* his case, he must be content to be admonished "impolitely" to keep silent, or he must suffer to have his auspicious prefix Su- exchanged forever by Dur-. *** Of course, we could follow V. Agarwal's advice (he indeed has imbibed the local culture well in his few years here!) and resort to US courts, as the above quotes constitute, according to my Oxford dictionary, not just slander but LIBEL: "written or printed statements that damages somebody's reputation". However, I put my trust in this Parishad and in the eye of Varuna and Mitra, the Sun, and in their spies at night, the 1000 spaz, who watch out constantly for Truth, (-- and, eventually, punish perpetrators of DRUH by dropsy, RV 8.89). I would not even have bothered about all of this, following the old proverbial advice "what does the moon care if a dog barks at it?" if the above was not part of a concerted campaign against "western colonialist, missionary, "eurocentric" Indologists", see for example the web sites of Rajaram or of Hindu Vivek Kendra, which has the MISSION to propagate such views. *That* is serious. Especially when combined with official policies. But that's a topic for scholars of political science... *** The quotes below should be of interest to all Indologists, irrespective of sub-discipline. Question: Do you all regard your work just as an "exercise in self-preservation"?? Hindu Vivek Kendra (including our old friend, now 'official' ideologist, K.Elst, etc.) http://www.hvk.org/abouthvk.html And cf. Rajaram's "Sword of Truth", at the end of the page: badly informed about the 18/19th century, and about Indology in general, but very assertive anyhow: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/= wowp 2cto.html He writes: ""A morality tale: As far as Indians are concerned, both the creators and the inheritors of the Vedic and Harappan civilizations, this holds an important moral lesson. There is no reason why Indians should defer to the opinions of these 'scholars' who have their own axes to grind. Their field originated driven by colonial politics and Christian missionary interests, at a time when race dominated scholarly discourse in the West. Their academic discipline holds on to the same colonial legacy though racism is no longer respectable; the same theories are now presented in linguistic garb. What drove the 'research' of Western scholars a century ago were colonial and missionary interests; what is driving it today is academic self-interest. Indian history and tradition don't exist to serve them and their pseudo-discipline. Here then is a basic question: who are these people to tell Indians - the inheritors of the only surviving civilization of the ancient world - how they should view themselves and their civilization? Every scientific advance - from the discovery of the Sarasvati River to the decipherment of the Harappan script - is exposing the hollowness of their theories and their discipline. It is this realization that is driving many academics to desperately cling to discredited theories, contriving new theories and explanations. It is nothing but an exercise in self-preservation. This is the moral of the latest episode following the 'world's oldest writing'. It may not be 'oldest anything', but it has served to expose the fears, the interests and the methods behind Western Indology. "" From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Thu Jul 13 11:51:32 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 11:51:32 +0000 Subject: svaamaaraama [svaatmaaraama] In-Reply-To: <004901bfec05$afbf3a80$120053be@lianda> Message-ID: <161227059867.23782.81401942532453457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Can any one tell me the date and origin of the hathayogapradiipikaa? > Bob Peck > There is no exhaustive study on the history of Hathayogic literature. For the history of HYP see: P.K. GODE: Date of the Hathayogapradipika of Svatmarama Muni IHQ 16 (1940): 306-313; repr. in Studies in Indian Literary History, Bombay: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1953, vol. I, pp. 379-387. (Gode suggests dates 1350-1650). For the history of Hathayogic literature in general see this very good study: Christian BOUY: Les Natha-Yogin et les Upanisads, Paris: Ed.-diff. de Boccard, 1994 (for HYP see esp. pp. 81-86, Bouy suggests 15th c.). -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Jul 13 16:27:22 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 12:27:22 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059879.23782.4945041381145444715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/13/2000 9:37:05 AM Central Daylight Time, witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > I would not even have bothered about all of this, following the old > proverbial advice "what does the moon care if a dog barks at it?" if the > above was not part of a concerted campaign against "western colonialist, > missionary, "eurocentric" Indologists", see for example the web sites of > Rajaram or of Hindu Vivek Kendra, which has the MISSION to propagate such > views. *That* is serious. Especially when combined with official policies. > But that's a topic for scholars of political science... In this connection, please also go to the following URL. http://www.chennaionline.com/newsview/newsitem.asp?NEWSID={E700A0F0-403F-11D4- 80A6-009027DEA219}&CATEGORYNAME=Chennai Please note the following statements. "Brahmins undertook to teach their values to society and to preserve Dharma, which is the basis of existence, he said adding that Brahmins had been doing this for well over 70 centuries. Brahmin bashing is nothing new, he said pointing out that Islam and Christianity both found the intellectual and traditional concepts of the Brahmins a hurdle to prosetylising. The Brahmins? ?sense of superiority in knowledge made them unwilling to bow down to powers? like the British, who were at best White Mlecchas, he said." While such a speech in that forum would not normally belong in Indology, the "70 centuries" of brahminic contribution proudly mentioned by one of the leading neurosurgeons of India should be of some concern to Indologists. Regards S. Palaniappan From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 13 17:59:09 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 12:59:09 -0500 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059886.23782.14815247925318997530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr.Witzel, Please be assured that I will give quotes from your writings that talk of the tanks soon. Yes, you have not used the exact word panzer. The idea of fast IE chariot tanks and superiority in horse handling is one of the underlying foundations on which the dispersal of IE languages is based. It still mystifies me that how one can assume that because someone might have spoken in an IE language that they had superior horse handling skills ? Also, none of the eminent scholars have proven that there is an mapping between IE languages and IE culture (the great scholar Mallory even has a Encyclopedia of IE culture!). As for arguing techniques, I have seen enough of your gems both on this list and in published papers. I will compile them and post it when I do get time. BTW, your trying to get Dr.Kochhar on to your side by schmoozing is most humorous. This reminds me of the time when you tried the same with Dr. Bh. Krishnamurthi in the past and got called on it. Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK Thu Jul 13 12:31:48 2000 From: cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK (Christopher J. Fynn) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 13:31:48 +0100 Subject: ATMlite 4.1 Free Download Message-ID: <161227059869.23782.4481257280390672811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Chandra Since ATM light and ATM 4.1 support ISO 10646 / Unicode why don't you use that *standard* encoding to map the glyphs in your font rather than the CSX scheme which conforms to no ISO, W3C or Internet standard ?? This will enable you to encode Pali in HTML & XML documents while remaining conformant to the HTML 4 & XML standards (which specify ISO 10646 as the basic character set) and enable people to use Unicode conformant search engines (e.g. AltaVista see: http://doc.altavista.com/help/search/accents.shtml ) on documents using these fonts. Type 1 fonts can be turned into simple "Unicode fonts" simply by following Adobe's Unicode glyph naming convention which outlined in their document "Unicode & Glyph Names": http://partners.adobe.com/asn/developer/typeforum/unicodegn.html - using names like "uniXXXX" where XXXX represents the hexidecimal value of the character in the Unicode / ISO 10646 standards. Better yet, ATM light 4.1 supports basic OpenType fonts with Type 1 outlines *.otf fonts). With OTF fonts you can add a Unicode cmap table (and other OpenType tables) to a font with Type 1 outlines. Tools enabling you to do this are available from Adobe as the Open Type Font Developer's Kit which is freely available by registering at: http://partners.adobe.com/asn/opentypefdk.html AFAIK the Unicode & OpenType support in ATM & ATM light is currently insufficient for properly handling the display of complex scripts like Devanagari and Tibetan encoded as Unicode text, but there is certainly enough support in ATM light 4.1 to display properly encoded fonts for Romanised Pali or Sanskrit. If you want to properly display Unicode text for Devanagari or Tamil script on web pages you can create such pages under Windows 2000 with the necessary language support installed using Microsoft Word 2000, Publisher 2000 or the latest version of Front Page. Microsoft's OpenType fonts for Devanagari and Tamil (Mangal & Latha) can be "embedded" in web pages using Microsoft's free Web Emedding Font Tool (WEFT) http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft2/default.htm which supports Unicode and OpenType. Such pages can be viewed on any system with Internet Explorer 5.x installed. (Unfortuately Netscape still has a number of problems displaying Unicode text for complex scripts). Best Regards - Chris cfynn at dircon.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Yenco" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 11:05 AM Subject: ATMlite 4.1 Free Download > Dear all, > Adobe has just released ATM Light 4.1 as a free download > which will allow more people to use Type 1 fonts. You can > download it at: > http://www.adobe.com/products/atmlight/main.html > You will have to register first with Adobe before downloading. > The file is about 12 MB, because it is supporting about a dozen > languages other than English (but mostly European I think). There > is an option during install not to select unnecessary language support. > You can also download my Pali Type 1 font families at: > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/5522/sumber.htm#fonts > Pali Charter font family (appr. 400 kB). > Pali Helvetica font family (appr. 420 kB). > Pali Palatino font family (appr. 650 kB). > Pali Times font family (appr. 550 kB). > Pali Bookman font family (appr. 540 kB). > The Pali Charter font family is distributed as Public Domain, > whereas the other font families are distributed under the terms > of GNU General Public License. They all use Classical Sanskrit > eXtended (CSX) encoding scheme, but only incorporate characters > that are needed for Pali. Each font family has 10 styles, viz roman, > italic, bold, bold-italic, condensed roman, condensed italic, > condensed bold, condensed bold-italic, small caps roman, > & condensed small caps roman. > Best wishes, > Chandra Yenco From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jul 13 12:40:04 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 13:40:04 +0100 Subject: Problem with Norman fonts in Microsoft Word for the PC (fwd) Message-ID: <161227059872.23782.1597935754594432141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:06:21 +0100 (BST) From: John Smith Subject: Problem with Norman fonts in Microsoft Word for the PC I have at last managed to come up with programs that allow Norman users to migrate to CSX+. (Word has changed the way it handles "Symbol-encoded" fonts such as Times Norman in a way that makes them impossible to use.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Recent releases of Microsoft Word for the PC (probably starting with Word 97) have introduced a new approach to font handling that causes severe problems with fonts following the Norman encoding. These include the Times Norman fonts available from my server, the older Normyn font (with its Italic variant MyTymes), and the font known as LeedsBit PaliTranslit. In most cases the form assumed by the problem is that line-breaks appear in undesirable places (e.g. in the middle of words); alternatively users might find that certain key characters have seemingly disappeared from the font. Users who have encountered this problem, or who wish to avoid encountering it in the future, should connect to this URL: ftp://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/pub/john/software/fonts/norman/problem Here they will find an explanation of the problem, and software to help them escape from it. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From rpeck at NECA.COM Thu Jul 13 19:16:04 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 15:16:04 -0400 Subject: dates Message-ID: <161227059888.23782.10281541088439671087.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for the dates and info on the HaThayogApradIpika. The given dates support a hypothesis I have been working on for years that may relate to the current debates. My basic assumptions are: The Rig Veda consists of verses relating to personal experiences of soma and its powers. Soma is internally generated with pounding, pressing etc. and is a higher form of energy (normally suppressed). Soma corresponds to the transformational power that lies within the lower body of an individual as described in the Greek Book of Matthew of the Christians (later ascribed to the church). Tantra was the science of explanation of this inner energy of transformation. The Tattvas described an inner control system comparable to modern control systems using Energy and Law. The majority of the practices in the HaThayogApradIpika are directed to the perineum or the lower center and are the ?how to? of the Rig Veda. For Indologists Was there a suppression of this science (if it actually existed)? Did it become allegorical and expressed in acceptable sexual or religious terms? Were the writings of Abhinavagupta describing the old science in similes? With my limited Sanskrit I found that his ParAtrIshikA VivaraNa seemed to offer keys to translation of the ParAtriMzikA that describes the inner energy source, is this acceptable?. I know it is unfashionable to ascribe hidden secrets to the ancients, however, I have found so much scientific verification of the old views as well as found that many modern teachings and practices suppress the generation of a transformational energy that I intend to dig deeper. . I am not a formal Indologist but rather a research scientist with advanced training in energy conversion, transport and storage that seems to be fairly closely related to the ancient concepts. Is anyone else interested or doing work in this field? Regards, Bob Peck From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Thu Jul 13 20:17:09 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 15:17:09 -0500 Subject: Aryan invasion by sea? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059892.23782.16428107769027017837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Glad to see some humor on this often cantankerous list. It would have helped to have a headline "Aryan invasion by seals?". Best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock >On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, N. Ganesan wrote: > >>Raja wrote: > >>> If seals were employed for trade, >>> couldn't dolphins, or even whales, >> have been employed for large-scale >>> immigration? >>> >>> In other words, could the >>> notorious Aryan invasion >>> have been seaborne? Have >>> any remains of chariots or >>> spoked wheels been recovered >>> from under the Indian Ocean? > > >> I fail to understand this, as I did not mention anything >> about Aryan invasion at all! > > >It was just a joke. Apparently >din't serve its porpoise. :-( > >Apologies for any confusion. > > >Raja. -- Hans Henrich Hock, Director Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 220 International Studies Building, MC-489 910 S. Fifth Street Champaign IL 61820 217-265-5016, 217-244-7331 fax 217-333-6270 e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu ***Visit our website at: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/ From xiang at FREE.FR Thu Jul 13 15:15:27 2000 From: xiang at FREE.FR (Guillaume JACQUES) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 16:15:27 +0100 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059877.23782.2440284293147797494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry to continue discussion on this tread that is only indirectly relevant to the Indus Script problem, but I would make a few comments : >One final point. With so-called mono-syllabic languages like >Chinese, there is only a limited number of word shapes that can be >generated. I should say that homonymy in chinese characters is the rather recent. of phonetic erotion and increased word-compounding. Much progress has been made in the last years in Archaic chinese reconstruction, which reveals chinese was basically a bisyllabic language, although it has been traditionnally assumed that one character = one syllable (those who want more information on that can write a private email to me, since this issue is not relevant in an Indological list). It is not necessary to make such an equation for the indus script either, even if it worked the same way the chinese script did. However, if the Indus Script had been comparable in complexity with Chinese, we should have expected a much higher number of signs. Even if you do not take regional and diachronic variants of the Shang oracle bone script (that are, I concede, longer than IS inscriptions), you still find more than 1500 deciphered characters, had many more that are impossible to decipher. With only 400 signs, IS script writing cannot have been a purely logographic system. Finally, on the homogeneity of the IS : the signs of the IS are quite simpler than that of egyptian, chinese or akkadian. There was thus a more limited room for evolution - especially for a script that barely lasted for a millenium. Besides, one may suppose (please correct me if there are archeological evidence against my claim) that these were always written on the same medium, unlike chinese that was written on scapula, turtle shells, bamboo, silk, clay (in the moulds used in casting bronze inscriptions) which in my opinion contributed in some way to the great variety of pre-imperial chinese scripts. Guillaume From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 13 17:52:03 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 17:52:03 +0000 Subject: Aryan invasion by sea? Message-ID: <161227059884.23782.8501213200643663541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NG>>Excavations at Lothal have proved that IVC seals were employed NG>>for trade purposes. Sangam poetry in Tamil mentions the use NG>>of seals exactly in this manner. <<< If seals were employed for trade, couldn't dolphins, or even whales, have been employed for large-scale immigration? In other words, could the notorious Aryan invasion have been seaborne? Have any remains of chariots or spoked wheels been recovered from under the Indian Ocean? Perplexed as usual, Narayan Sriranga Raja. >>> I fail to understand this, as I did not mention anything about Aryan invasion at all! Indian archaeologists have shown that the seals were used in seaborne trade esp., at Lothal. Thought scholars in this forum may be interested in knowing that seals used on packages in and out of ports are mentioned in sangam poetry. Hence my original writeup. N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Jul 13 17:49:27 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 18:49:27 +0100 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059883.23782.9861122224386989599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The poor soul from Trivandrum who has been banished from this list for a long article, could have avoided banishment easily if he could put up his article on a web-site, and then published a URL on Indology. ( This method is recommended in the rules of this list. ) So, either he was careless, or a web-site was not accessible to him. I tend to suspect the latter. Perhaps some reader of this list has a web-site and would be willing to accept such submissions. -arun gupta From Joperry2 at AOL.COM Fri Jul 14 00:48:01 2000 From: Joperry2 at AOL.COM (John Oliver Perry) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 20:48:01 -0400 Subject: Logic and fudge Message-ID: <161227059895.23782.10477515712916726841.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Elst commenting on "fudge factors" makes a logical leap here which is apparent even to a casual enjoyer of this debate: << Chinese can be written in no less than three directions: left-to-right (most mainland-Chinese textbooks), right-to-left (still in inscriptions on temple gates and the like) and top-down with the lines succeeding right-to-left (classical texts). The Chinese and Harappan scribes alike designed their scripts in such ways for other reasons than for the sake of confusing future decipherers; and modern decipherers should not be held guilty of manipulations if they rightly or wrongly discern that variable pattern in a given ancient script. >> Chinese and Harappan scribes must have designed their scripts indeed at different times for different uses, and Elst explains the different uses of each directionality in Chinese, whereas he makes no such claim for Harappan. So the parallelism (logic) is incomplete. As for "fudge factors," yes, they can be employed by over-eager (not closely self-critical, close to non-scientific?) scholars. To fudge is not necessarily to be dishonest. The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd College ed., lists: "--tr. 1. To fake or falsify. 2. To evade (an issue for example [as Elst above?]); dodge. --intr. 1. To act in an indecisive manner. 2. a. To go beyond the proper limits of something. b. To act dishonestly; cheat. [Orig. unknown]" Note that the order of meanings shifts according to transitive or intransitive status. Just clarifying from a position quite outside the debate (with obvious inclinations, but no fudging). ATB, John Oliver Perry From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jul 14 01:09:30 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 00 21:09:30 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059897.23782.5993514548257096147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/13/2000 12:13:58 PM Central Daylight Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > This is contemporary Indian politics, mixed with generic Indian > conceptions of long yugas. After all, 50 centuries of Kali Yuga > have already passed! The speech does not belong in Indology, and > need not concern Indologists, unless of course, one wants to > avoid being operated upon by a doctor who says such things. I > don't think anybody here needs brain surgery, so Dr. Ramamurthi's > comments are best left aside. I do not think the speech is as innocuous as it might seem to Vidyasankar. One can subject the quote from Ramamurthi's speech to the same textual analysis processes Indologists use with other texts. What struck me most about the speech is the quoted time of 70 centuries. How does one go from 50 centuries of Kali yuga to 70 centuries. Is the use of 70 centuries a common hyperbole? At least, I have not heard it in traditional usage. If others have, I would like to know. On the other hand, in the announcement of Rajaram and Jha's book in the web site http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode.html, we find the following: "The implications of these findings go beyond the borders of India -- leading to a possible change in our viewpoint on the origin of civilization itself. Since Dholavira, according to Bisht, has shown planned cities dating to the fourth millennium, the Vedic Civilization of the Sarasvati heartland must go back at least to the fifth." "well over 70 centuries" in Ramamurthi's speech equates to stating that the Vedic civilization must go back "at least to the fifth" millennium BC. To me what the speech reveals is the efficacy of the propagation of views of Rajaram and others like him in reaching the Indian intelligentsia outside the limited circle of Indologists. This directly relates to what Dr. Witzel stated in his post. Regards S. Palaniappan From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Jul 14 00:51:03 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 01:51:03 +0100 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059894.23782.12536764182703541358.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Guillaume Jacques wrote: > I should say that homonymy in chinese characters is the rather recent. > of phonetic erotion and increased word-compounding. Though all this, as you acknowledge, has no immediate Indological relevance, I feel I should reply to this since it was my suggestion. I am a well aware of the various points have raised so I have problem about the probable nature of archaic Chinese. > However, if the Indus Script had been comparable in complexity with > Chinese, we should have expected a much higher number of signs. I was not suggesting that IV script was necessarily logographic or ideographic. More by way of thinking aloud, I was wondering if the IV script was syllabic. Most syllabic scripts have a small quantity of symbols to represent each one since all the systems I know are V or CV. If a script were syllabic, then judging from a language like modern Chinese which has V, VC, CV and CVC, one might expect to end up with around 450 odd signs -- this is not to suggest that the IV language was "monosyllabic". If, for the sake of argument, one took a simple 5 vowel system which did not distinguish length and worked through all the permutations of the consonants together with finals nasals represented by anusvara and also those ending with a visarga type of aspiration thus ka ki ku ke ko, kam kim, kum, kem, kom, kah, kih, kuh, keh, koh, multiply this by, say by way of example, the 28 non-vocalics aksaras of Sanskrit (simplifying all prevocalic nasals to "n") we end up with exactly 450, not forgetting to add a few extra signs for vowels. I merely voiced this observation because it seemed an interesting coincidence that the basic range of IV symbols is said by some to be around 450. Note however that this kind of rotational end-stopped syllabic system was not unknown in India -- I have worked extensively on a Buddhist tantra which presents exactly this set of permutations as a Wheel of Letters -- not doubt other subscribers will know of others. Having said the above, I acknowledge I have not looked at IV script in any detail nor do I have any theories about what language might be represented by it. Not doubt others wiser than myself will see reasons why this suggestion would not fit the known facts about IV script. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Fri Jul 14 02:11:12 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 03:11:12 +0100 Subject: Logic and fudge Message-ID: <161227059899.23782.3927703801497633692.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> John Oliver Perry writes: > As for "fudge factors," yes, they can be employed by over-eager (not closely > self-critical, close to non-scientific?) scholars. To fudge is not > necessarily to be dishonest. The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd College > ed., lists: "--tr. 1. To fake or falsify. 2. To evade (an issue for example > [as Elst above?]); dodge. --intr. 1. To act in an indecisive manner. 2. a. To > go beyond the proper limits of something. b. To act dishonestly; cheat. > [Orig. unknown]" > > Note that the order of meanings shifts according to transitive or > intransitive status. It would seem that the semantic range of the word as used in the US is different to UK English. The relevent parts of the Oxford English Reference Dic define it thus: n.: 1. nonsense; 2. a piece of dishonesty or faking v.tr: 1. to put together in a makeshift or dishonest way; fake v.tr: 2. to deal with incompetently v.int: to practise such methods I wonder if the good Konrad Elst speaks British English or its American version ? As Oscar Wilde is supposed to have said of the Americans, "Nothing divides us but a common language". Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Fri Jul 14 10:55:12 2000 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 06:55:12 -0400 Subject: Sanatana Dharma Message-ID: <161227059902.23782.12848157183273403376.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A scholar friend in Pondicherry sent me this query. Can anyone help? Thanks for any help you can give! Patricia ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU Fri Jul 14 12:06:58 2000 From: jfitzge1 at UTK.EDU (James L. Fitzgerald) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 08:06:58 -0400 Subject: Sanatana Dharma Message-ID: <161227059906.23782.12158630007033291964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > dharma, Here, as a place to start, is a basic, unchecked listing of the co-occurrences of sanaatan and dharm [both truncated to their stem-forms to catch all case forms] in the old kyoto files of the mbh, ram, arthazaastra, and various dharmasuutras & zaastras. To supplement, I have included at the end the results for sanaatan in all the kyoto *.dhs [dharmasuutra] files and the *.ups [upaniSad] files. There may currently be more up to date versions of all these e-texts; e.g., John Smith's MBh is a corrected and improved version of the MBh. These lists were generated using DOS versions of the unix utility grep. Jim Fitzgerald University of Tennessee mbh01:001.097.0253/.tat.te.dharmam.pravakSyaami.kSaatram.raajni.sanaatanam./ / mbh01:001.113.0073/.striiNaam.anugraha.karah.sa.hi.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh01:001.113.0133/.maa.taata.kopam.kaarSiis.tvam.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh01:001.158.0203/.katham.icchasi.taam.roddhum.na.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh01:001.188.0083/.na.ca.dharmo.apy.anekasthaz.caritavyah.sanaatanah.// mbh01:001.188.0181/.anRtaan.mokSyase.bhadre.dharmaz.caiva.sanaatanah./{Vyaas a} mbh01:001.188.0191/.yathaa.ayam.vihito.dharmo.yataz.ca.ayam.sanaatanah./ mbh01:001.196.0023/.samvibhajyaas.tu.kaunteyaa.dharma;eSa.sanaatanah.// mbh02:002.062.0093/.sa.naSTah.kauraveyeSu.puurvo.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh03:003.013.0063/.nikRtya.upacaran.vadhya;eva.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh03:003.030.0501/.etad.aatmavataam.vRttam.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh03:003.032.0283/.dharmam.te.hy.aacaran.kRSNe.taddhi.dharma.sanaatanam.//( dharma?) mbh03:003.034.0521/.anubudhyasva.raaja.indra.vettha.dharmaan.sanaatanaan./ mbh03:003.034.0533/.eSa.te.vihito.raajan.dhaatraa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh03:003.086.0213/.saakSaad.devah.puraaNo.asau.sa.hi.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh03:003.086.0223/.te.vadanti.mahaa.aatmaanam.kRSNam.dharmam.sanaatanam.// mbh03:003.087.0083/.papaata.sa.punar.lokaaml.lebhe.dharmaan.sanaatanaan.// mbh03:003.090.0023/.zriimataam.ca.api.jaanaasi.raajnaam.dharmam.sanaatanam./ / mbh03:003.093.0113/.uvaasa.ca.svayam.yatra.dharmo.raajan.sanaatanah.// mbh03:003.148.0101/.kRtam.naama.yugam.taata.yatra.dharmah.sanaatanah./{Ha} mbh03:003.152.0091/.na.hi.yaacanti.raajaana;eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah./# mbh03:003.204.0275/.gaarhasthye.vartamaanasya.dharma;eSa.sanaatanah./&E27# mbh03:003.222.0351/.paty.aazrayo.hi.me.dharmo.matah.striiNaam.sanaatanah./# mbh03:003.281.0203/.mayaa.api.tatra.gantavyam.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah./&20 mbh03:003.281.0343/.anugrahaz.ca.daanam.ca.sataam.dharmah.sanaatanah./& mbh04:004.050.0073/.atra.eva.ca.avirodhena;eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.//# mbh05:005.020.0031/.sarvair.bhavadbhir.vidito.raaja.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh05:005.042.0171/.yaan.imaan.aahuh.svasya.dharmasya.lokaan;dvijaatiinaam.p uNyakRtaam.sanaatanaan./q mbh05:005.079.0011/.yad.etat.kathitam.raajnaa.dharma;eSa.sanaatanah./#{Sahad eva} mbh05:005.083.0071/.sa.maanyataam.nara.zreSThah.sa.hi.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh05:005.086.0173/.maa.evam.vocah.prajaa.paala.na.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh06:006.017.0113/.yad.aajau.nidhanam.yaati.so.asya.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh06:006.023.0401/.kula.kSaye.praNazyanti.kula.dharmaah.sanaatanaah./ mbh06:006.033.0183/.tvam.avyayah.zaazvata.dharma.goptaa;sanaatanas.tvam.puru So.mato.me.// mbh07:007.057.0393/.paarthena.saha.dharma.aatmaa.gRNan.brahma.sanaatanam.//# mbh07:007.062.0091/.tvam.tu.praajnatamo.loke.hitvaa.dharmam.sanaatanam./ mbh09:009.030.0221/.ayuddham.avyavasthaanam.na.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah./# mbh12:012.050.032cd/.saamkhye.yoge.ca.niyataa.ye.ca.dharmaah.sanaatanaah.// mbh12:012.054.039ab/.tasmaat.putraiz.ca.pautraiz.ca.dharmaan.pRSTah.sanaatan aan./ mbh12:012.057.011ab/.loka.ranjanam.eva.atra.raajnaam.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.057.015cd/.dharma.samkara.rakSaa.hi.raajnaam.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.057.037cd/.viSaye.bhuumi.paalasya.tasya.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.057.042ab/.tad.raajan.raaja.simhaanaam.na.anyo.dharmah.sanaatanah. / mbh12:012.064.029ab/.sarva.dharma.param.kSatram.loka.jyeSTham.sanaatanam./ mbh12:012.096.013ef/.nirvraNo.api.ca.moktavya;eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.099.046ab/.etat.tapaz.ca.puNyam.ca.dharmaz.caiva.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.110.003ab/.kim.svit.satyam.kRm.anRtam.kim.svid.dharmyam.sanaatanam ./ mbh12:012.121.001ab/.ayam.pitaamahena.ukto.raaja.dharmah.sanaatanah./{Y} mbh12:012.122.014cd/.prajaa.vinaya.rakSaa.artham.dharmasya.aatmaa.sanaatanah .// mbh12:012.122.044ab/.dharmaac.ca.brahmaNah.putro.vyavasaayah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.128.030cd/.nityam.eva.iha.kartavyaa;eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.131.002cd/.paripaalya.anugRhNiiyaad.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.139.070ab/.asataa.yat.samaaciirNam.na.sa.dharmah.sanaatanah./{Z} mbh12:012.154.007cd/.braahmaNasya.vizeSeNa.damo.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.156.004ab/.satyam.satu.sadaa.dharmah.satyam.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.156.005ab/.satyam.dharmas.tapo.yogah.satyam.brahma.sanaatanam./ mbh12:012.156.021cd/.anugrahaz.ca.daanam.ca.sataam.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.168.046cd/.yathaa.saa.kRcchra.kaale.api.lebhe.dharmam.sanaatanam./ / mbh12:012.217.026cd/.avaimi.tv.asya.lokasya.dharmam.zakra.sanaatanam.// mbh12:012.250.028ab/.dharmah.sanaatanaz.ca.tvaam.iha.eva.anupraveksyate./ mbh12:012.251.012ab/.na.hartavyam.para.dhanam.iti.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.254.005ab/.veda.aham.jaajale.dharmam.sarahasyam.sanaatanam./ mbh12:012.256.017cd/.samyak.caivam.upaalabdho.dharmaz.ca.uktah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.259.012ab/.na.muula.ghaatah.kartavyo.na.esa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.262.029ab/.apavarga.gatir.nityo.yati.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.276.049ab/.zrotriyaas.tv.agra.bhoktaaro.dharma.nityaah.sanaatanaah ./ mbh12:012.298.009cd/.pRstena.ca.api.vaktavyam.esa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.322.050cd/.praavartayanta.tat.zaastram.dharma.yonim.sanaatanam.// mbh12:012.327.007ab/.aho.hi.duranustheyo.moksa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh12:012.336.020cd/.suparnaac.ca.apy.adhigato.dharma;esa.sanaatanah.// mbh12:012.336.051ab/.evam.esa.mahaan.dharma;aadyo.raajan.sanaatanah./ mbh13:013.044.0043/.ziSTaanaam.kSatriyaaNaam.ca.dharma;eSa.sanaatanah.//# mbh13:013.044.0323/.pratigRhya.bhaved.deyam.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh13:013.047.0031/.yathaa.nareNa.kartavyam.yaz.ca.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh13:013.047.0353/.tatra.apy.eSa.mahaa.raaja.dRSTo.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh13:013.058.0291/.yathaa.paty.aazramo.dharmah.striiNaam.loke.sanaatanah./ mbh13:013.058.0321/.atra.te.vartayiSyaami.yathaa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh13:013.096.0463/.diiyataam.puSkaram.mahyam.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh13:013.113.0213/.te.sma.praaNasya.daataaras.tebhyo.dharmah.sanaatanah.//# mbh13:013.116.0053/.nicayena.cikiirSaami.dharmam.etam.sanaatanam.// mbh13:013.128.0543/.vipraaNaam.svaagatam.tyaago.vaizya.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh13:013.129.0053/.ziSTa.aaciirNah.parah.proktas.trayo.dharmaah.sanaatanaah .// mbh13:013.129.0091/.nitya.svaadhyaayataa.dharmo.dharmo.yajnah.sanaatanah./ mbh13:013.129.0143/.satkRtya.anuvrajed.yaz.ca.tasya.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh13:013.129.0263/.parivrajati.yo.yuktas.tasya.dharmah.sanaatanah.// mbh13:013.147.0223/.ajaata.zatro.savasva.dharma;eSa.sanaatanah.//# mbh14:014.018.0191/.teSu.tad.dharma.nikSiptam.yah.sa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh14:014.038.0053/.akaama.hata;ity.eSa.sataam.dharmah.sanaatanah.//# mbh14:014.050.0371/.eSaa.gatir.asaktaanaam.eSa.dharmah.sanaatanah./ mbh14:014.094.0315/.sanaatanasya.dharmasya.muulam.etat.sanaatanam.// mbh15:015.033.0313/.kalevaram.iha.etat.te.dharma;eSa.sanaatanah.// mbh15:015.035.0143/.maaNDavyena.RSiNaa.dharmo.hy.abhibhuutah.sanaatanah.// ram1:102401612/.raajya.bhaara.niyuktaanaam..eSa..dharmah..sanaatanah./ ram2:201605234/.tahaa..bhavatyaa..kartavyam..sa..hi..dharmah..sanaatanah.// ram2:202101034/.zuzruuSaa..kriyataam..taavat..sa..hi..dharmah..sanaatanah.// ram2:202703034/.tathaa..vartitum..icchaami..sa..hi..dharmah..sanaatanah./ ram2:205501712/.dvijaati..carito..dharmah..zaastra.dRSTah..sanaatanah./ ram3:300302412/.rakSasaam..gata.sattvaanaam..eSa..dharmah..sanaatanah./ ram4:401801834/.bhraatur..vartasi..bhaaryaayaam..tyaktvaa..dharmam..sanaatan am./ ram5:500110012/.kRte..ca..pratikartavyam..eSa..dharmah..sanaatanah./ ram7:700800312/.naaraayaNa..na..jaaniiSe..kSatra.dharmam..sanaatanam./ brhasp.dhz:BP1.10.032a/ saantaanika.aadisu tathaa dharma eSaaM sanaatanaH / brhasp.dhz:BP1.17.024b/ saantaanika.aadiSu tathaa dharma eSa sanaatanaH // brhasp.dhz:BP1.26.095b/ (vindet pativrataa naarii dharma eSa sanaatanaH // manu.dhz:M4.138c/ priyaM ca na-anRtaM bruuyaad) eSa dharmaH sanaatanaH || manu.dhz:M7.98a[99Ma]/ eSo 'anupaskRtaH prokto yodhadharmaH sanaatanaH | manu.dhz:M9.64c/ anyasmin hi niyuJjaanaa) dharmaM hanyuH) sanaatanam || narada.dhz:N18.44c/ tad raajJaapy anumantavyam eSa dharmaH sanaatanaH // parasa.dhz:PS2.15cd/.caturNaaM.api.varNaanaaM.eSa.dharmaH.sanaatanaH.//E parasa.dhz:PS3.47cd/.dvijais.tadaa.anugantavyaa.eSa.dharmaH.sanaatanaH.//E visnu.dhz:ViS 1.48c/ varNaanaam aazramaaNaaM ca dharmaan vada sanaatana // baudha.dhs:B4.1.26cd/ praNavo vyaahRtayaz ca^eva nityaM brahma sanaatanam // baup.ups:vipracittir, vyastih, sanaaruh, sanaatanah, sanagah, baup.ups:viprajitti, vyasti, sanaaru, sanaatana, sanaga, paramesthin, brahma baup.ups:viprajittir, vyasti, sanaaru, sanaatana, sanaga, paramesthin, brahman baup.ups:ekarsi, vipracitti, vyasti, sanaaru, sanaatana, sanaga, paramesthin, kathup.ups:(KathU3.16a) naaciketam[ Birgit Kellner writes : >Anyway, good luck and much success with whatever further research you might >want to carry out on this subject, You shame me with your graciousness. I'm sorry that in the heat of the argument I overlooked your contribution to the discussion. Many thanks for all the help. And incidentally in our discussion I only said that SAntarakshita and KamalasIla were the last *great* Buddhist philosophers. And my contention was that Udhayana being the *top* philosopher of the NyAya school might not have found *worthy* Buddhist opponents. Anyway I accept that this argument is a bit too vague. Regarding Vidya's post : I'm letting all the polemic go by, as I would like to see something constructive come out of this discussion. And I'm sorry for misspelling the names - it was not intentional. I'll take more care in the future. >You apparently don't see why the parataH prAmANya vAda was fundamental to >nyAya, or why it was never given up. I'm unable to understand how the "validity of knowledge", seriously affects the argument for or against a creator God. Can you please explain? >This sort of "everybody said the same thing" is not my cup of tea. Who was it who said that? That there's a spiritual unity underlying all the philosophical systems is hardly, "everybody said the same thing". >All I'm saying is that there has been an influence of nyAya on advaita. Well, that's quite a drop from the original "heaviness" of the influence! >must we all accept your idiosyncratic way of doing things as reasonable? The "reasonableness" of my "reasonable" is only as idiosyncratic as the "heaviness" of your "heavy". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jul 14 10:05:59 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 11:05:59 +0100 Subject: dates In-Reply-To: <000501bfed00$d6746b40$120053be@lianda> Message-ID: <161227059900.23782.7373896984823633984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Bob Peck wrote: > I am not a formal Indologist but rather a research scientist with > advanced training in energy conversion, transport and storage that > seems to be fairly closely related to the ancient concepts. Dear Bob, If you read the membership rules of this list, available at www.indology.org.uk, and especially the "Scope" of the list, you will see that I really have tried hard to make this a list for specialists with a university-level knowledge of Classical Indian studies, and preferably a knowledge of Sanskrit, Persian, Tamil, or another classical language of India. You will note that I am particularly keen that research scientists should not participate in INDOLOGY, since the long experience of this list is that the most highly qualified scientists make the very worst indologists. There is something about the current scientific culture that leads its members to believe that their academic skills are more generalizable than they really are. You are very welcome to lurk, but your statement that you are not an Indologist suggests that the list is not primarily a forum of first resort for you. Sorry if this seems harsh, but turn it around: a list for particle physics or soil science would not normally be an appropriate forum for people with no formal training in these fields, who do not attend the professional conferences or regularly subscribe to the professional journals. Imagine how members of a list for main-sequence stellar observations would be if a Sanskritist jumped in with lots of striking new ideas about the *real* meaning of stars. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Jul 14 15:19:37 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 11:19:37 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059912.23782.838954854023733794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Less of Gandhi's theatrical moralism and more common sense would have saved numerous lives. The Mahatma gave us a peep into the workings of his own mind when he advised refugees from West Panjab in Delhi to return home (and face certain death): "If all Panjabis were to die willingly, Panjab will become immortal." (someplace in Collins and Lapierre: Freedom at Midnight) This to refugees who had lost everything and seen their relatives butchered; as Alain Dani?lou has remarked, Gandhi was alternately ice-cold and arch-sentimental. Many of gandhijis followers themselves can be quite critical of him. I personally head angry criticism by a staunch follower on his treatment of a pregnant kasturba when she refused to clean public latrines in south africa. This from people who knew him personally and have been staunch followers all their lives. People do openly discuss his faults rather than just treat him as some undisputed symbol of morality. There is nothing strange about treating gandhi as another human being. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Fri Jul 14 18:32:44 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 11:32:44 -0700 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059921.23782.5414728904818770504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> N. Ganesan writes: > The > famous Dholavira inscription is on wood which is partially decayed. > (I think Dr. Farmer wrongly spells this as Kholavira). I do *not* spell it that way. There was an obvious typo in a post of mine mentioning the Dholavira signboard on July 10. The appearance of a typo hardly indicates that I spell the word that way. Here's part of my original post on the topic, from July 7: > What does the great "Dholavira 'signboard'" -- which Jha/Rajaram claim > to decipher in Part II, Chapter 6, of their book -- say? Let's break > this down for discussion purposes: > > 1. What does the Dholavira inscription say, according to Jha/Rajaram? > 2. How exactly do they derive their reading? > 3. What alternate readings are possible in their system (arising from > the "many degrees of freedom" point raised above? > 3. How do they interpret each of the characters, determinatives (if > relevant), etc.? That post led over the next few days to a devastating deconstruction of the supposed Jha/Rajaram "decipherment." Leaving typos aside, let me point to a substantial error in Ganesan's post. He writes: > Many wooden materials and palm leaves, possibly written with IVC > signs, would have been lost forever due to the harsh climate. This thread began, back on July 1, with four powerful arguments *against* te view that there were extensive texts written on perishable materials in the IVC. To review those arguments -- as I write this the Indology archives are "down" -- go to: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/scribalpressure.html Those arguments have not been addressed by Ganesan, who did not take part the later discussion of this issue. Instead of confronting those arguments, he choses to point to an obvious typo as proof that I misspelled a word! Steve Farmer From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jul 14 20:34:17 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 13:34:17 -0700 Subject: [Re: Date of Udayana] Message-ID: <161227059926.23782.6138375499510381802.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran, Disclaimer:- I am not joining the discussion that you initiated. Query:- Why do you continue to write Udhayana, instead of Udayana ? Best. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 14 21:01:19 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 14:01:19 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059928.23782.8957985281796135071.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Query:- Why do you continue to write Udhayana, instead of Udayana ? Because, Udhayana isn't around to object to me for correctly spelling his name :-) BTW, the "dha" in Udhayana is more pronounced and thicker than it is in Nanda, thus justifying the "h" in the former. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Fri Jul 14 12:54:20 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 14:54:20 +0200 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059908.23782.1609276836657178254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since George Thompson insists on continuing his attack and is also getting away with it, I will (separately) post the reply I had withheld from sending after Dr. Wujastyk's intervention, and I will now comment on his latest. > Well, whether it likes it or not, the List now knows what I think of K. Elst, I am surprised to learn that a scholarly weblist, protecting its scholarly character from all kinds of misuse with a set of rules, tolerates being used as a medium for declared personal attacks. George did not go off on a somewhat personal tangent in the heat of a discussion on the Harappan script, he was not contributing to that discussion at all. Out of the blue, he shot off several mails whose only content was an attack on me. > as well as his friend, whose name, by the way, I promise *never* to mention > again on this list [so he can call off his lawyers].> In your litigious country, fear of lawyers is more conducive to good conduct than old-fashioned respect for colleagues, it seems. Come to mention the sick state of society in the US, isn't that where various groups are competing for victim status? So that must be where your projection of a victimhood obsession onto my discourse comes from. That background information makes it easier for me to forgive you. Unlike you, I don't take long to forgive. > I will take Dominik's good advice to 'rein it in.' I will also try to find > viveka. But higher morality trumps the list rules, so George will at the same time *not* rein himself in, for > I will continue to say what I think is true, as I tried to do in > my last post, which unfortunately was also tainted by anger. > Now, anger is certainly not a virtue [incompatible as it is with viveka, to > be sure]. And even though this is a scholarly list where anger certainly has > no place, holy anger trumps the list rules, so > I just cannot permit myself as a moral person to concede the moral > high ground to a person who actually thinks that Gandhi's attempt to > reconcile with Muslims was a retreat from morality. I just can't do it. People who are interested can always consult my writings on Gandhi to see for themselves that George's allegation is rather less than truthful. But the problem with defamation (for the targeted person), or its great attraction (for the perpetrator), is precisely that most people have more pressing concerns than to verify every slander which has reached their ears. So they lap it up, or at least keep it in mind somewhere as one version of the facts, equal in weight with other versions. As for the small minority who care to find out the truth, even those sympathizing with the victim (to use George's favourite word) will still be influenced by the defamation in their actual behaviour: "Sorry Sir, we know you've been treated unfairly, we know that what they say is untrue, but we as a well-reputed institute cannot afford to have such a controversial person among our invited speakers"... About the effect of defamation, George, let me give you a simile which lends itself excellently to the kind of dramatic misinterpretation at which you already are a repeat offender: if I were to punch your face in, the damage done would not be one tenth of the damage done by defamation. A face can be repaired nowadays, but a bruised name? (another difference is that punching a face takes some courage, whereas any coward can spread lies) Maybe that is why academics are generally hypersensitive to matters of reputation. It is perhaps also why, in my search for moral injunctions which are truly common to all literate religions, I have so far found only one: not a prohibition of violence, or of drunkenness, or of fornication, but the prohibition on defaming others. About victimhood and Gandhi's morality, two in one: I don't normally use loaded words like "victim" in an argument about the unabashad contempt with which AIT proponents routinely treat OIT proponents. It would be an inflationary devaluation of the word to use it for inconsequential quarrels between hair-splitting academics. I would rather reserve the term for statements like this one: "In 1947, a hundred thousand Muslims and four times that many Hindus and Sikhs who were trapped on the wrong side of the border in Panjab became mortal *victims* of Mahatma Gandhi's foolish and dogmatic rejection of Dr. Ambedkar's proposal to organize a peaceful and orderly exchange of population." As Paul Johnson has remarked (in the section on Indian independence in his book Modern Times), for an apostle of peace, Gandhi with his self-centred gimmicks and whimsical mass politics has left an unusually bloody trail. And Johnson was not the first to cut the mythical Mahatma to size, there have been numerous others, see e.g. from a Black and Dalit angle, Fazlul-Haq's book Gandhi, Saint or Sinner? Less of Gandhi's theatrical moralism and more common sense would have saved numerous lives. The Mahatma gave us a peep into the workings of his own mind when he advised refugees from West Panjab in Delhi to return home (and face certain death): "If all Panjabis were to die willingly, Panjab will become immortal." (someplace in Collins and Lapierre: Freedom at Midnight) This to refugees who had lost everything and seen their relatives butchered; as Alain Dani?lou has remarked, Gandhi was alternately ice-cold and arch-sentimental. In such altercations between a trumpeted media saint and the ordinary folk who became the *victims* of his irresponsible policies, I tend to side with the victims. Incidentally, Gandhi's assurance that dying brings immortality has proven correct in his own case: thoroughly discredited after his mishandling of the transfer of power and partition, he regained immortality by being shot. And that, apart from universal moral reasons, is one extra reason for Gandhi's critics to condemn the murder: it postponed a sobre assessment of Gandhi's highly mixed role by several generations. > If insisting on this gets me removed from this List, well, I can give the > List up also, if I have to. Going by past experience, you don't have to worry about that. > Maybe it would lead to my getting more work done You certainly have stolen a good chunk of my precious time by forcing me to deal with your unprovoked and repeated libels. > [now, *that* is voice of the > scholar in me talking, firmly taking the reins away from the little moralist > in me, whom I hope to subdue, sternly, by means of all kinds of difficult and > distracting niyogas]. > Best wishes and with all due prAyazcittas, Spare me your inner voices, in Gandhi's case the inner voice didn't do any good either. And spare me your dharmic good intentions. A simple apology will do. Otherwise, all the best. K. Elst From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Fri Jul 14 12:54:36 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 14:54:36 +0200 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059910.23782.12015239817995658708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (this mail was initially withheld in the hope of de-escalating tensions, but since the attack on me has continued, I am now posting it for the record) > This is K. Elst commenting on George Thompson Aan: Verzonden: dinsdag 11 juli 2000 4:54 who wrote: > I call the List's attention to K. Elst's very first post to this List [dated > 9/2/99], in which he defends his dear friend "Vishalji", who had just > finished threatening me, clearly and directly and publically, by reminding me > of the wisdom of the principle of self-preservation. (...) > And he continues to hide behind the mask of the victim. (..) > Please recall that I was the first member of this list to welcome him. > And I will be the last one to forgive him. If someone has a penchant for victimhood, it is the touch-me-not who fancies himself the target of a "threat". What happened was that Vishal Agarwal, on the assumption that the OIT might be the wave of the future, pointed out that observing normal decorum when discussing that theory would favour the "preservation" of the academic standing of indologists. The implied prediction (not threat, much less physical threat) was that those who went all the way in lambasting the OIT would find themselves exposed as laughing-stocks once the OIT would become the dominant paradigm. Maybe the fortunes of the OIT are not such as to warrant that prediction, but then neither was George's claim of a "threat" warranted. I am sorry to note that even after Vishal's clarification, not to mention my own, and after the passing of ten months, George Thompson is still labouring under the delusion that a "threat" was issued against him. Back then, not being an AIT academic lambasting an OIT outsider, i restrained myself from calling his delusion pathological. But after his relapse, it is so obvious that it can indeed be said openly: George Thompson suffers bouts of paranoia. Nothing to worry about, George:-- Mohammed was a paranoia sufferer too (actually a textbook case), and they still talk about him. > he insinuates > elaborately a common cause between the historian Romila Thapar and Hitler, > and then later suggests that it is M. Witzel who is guilty of initiating this > tactic of using the Nazi card; In the Marxist hate rhetoric against the Hindu revivalist movement, cries of "fascism" are never far away, as i have documented and discussed in detail in my forthcoming book The Saffron Swastika. Because of the sloppy identification of the OIT with Hindu revivalism, that shrill rhetoric has also been transferred to the AIT debate. In order to put people, especially innocent newcomers influenced by this roaring and hysterical rhetoric, back with their feet on the ground, I sometimes remind them that Hitler was, after all, a very firm AIT believer. An update on the centrality of the AIT to the racist worldview can be found in David Duke's book My Awakening, where he says in so many words that he would never have become a racist activist but for his seeing the miserable consequences of race-mixing in India, land of the pitiable degenerate half-breed descendants of the once-pure Aryan invaders. Conversely, Steve Farmer's hero Voltaire was a firm OIT believer. I have repeatedly stressed that to me, these accidental associations with the heroes and villains of history make no difference at all to the truth or otherwise of any theory. I have never accused Romila Thapar of being anyhow Hitlerian: I don't think she wants to invade Poland, build concentration camps (then again, being a Marxist, she just might) or design a Volkswagen beetle car. But if she wants to throw that kind of hate rhetoric around herself (as she has done in several publications, though still more politely than many others), she needs to be reminded that on the AIT, she and most of you here just happen to be in the same camp with Hitler, while the OIT oddballs can bask in Voltaire's reflected glory. Can't help it, it's a fact. The "Nazi card" is part of a larger phenomenon: the systematic jettisoning of normal scholarly decorum by even the most prominent indologists and indo-europeanists when faced with the rejection of the AIT paradigm, or even with theory fragments which might undermine the AIT. For an example, unrelated to this list, of how the Indo-Europeanist orthodoxy misbehaves in its treatment of dissidents, consider the attack of a Dutch-Indian duo (it is really not a matter of race) on Claus Zoller after his discovery of a kentum language in the Himalayan foothills, which need not but may well have consequences for the AIT debate. After the leading journal Indogermanische Forschungen had given the duo prominent space to attack Zoller's competence and integrity, it refused to Zoller the opportunity of a rebuttal to their smears. (Fortunately, his name has been cleared by other researchers who confirmed his findings.) As we have seen numerous times on this list and in other forums, AIT proponents routinely use disparaging and even foul language against AIT skeptics. Even apparent outsiders without an axe to grind quickly pick up what is the done thing here, and immediately impute motives and dirty tricks ("ducking", "fudging", to cite a few recent ones), possibly as a projection of the dirt clouding the eye of the beholder. But when this is pointed out, or indeed when the other side does half as much, they loudly blame the other side for derailing academic debate into a slanging-match. This doesn't impinge on their self-image as fair and dispassionate, for then they go home satisfied, saying to themselves: see, talking with them Hindu chauvinists is just impossible. This is not a deliberate lie, merely a firmly installed prejudice distorting their perception of the debate. Indeed, most likely George will come away from my reply to his unprovoked attacks with the impression that, in spite of my repeatedly ignoring provocations by himself and others, it is me who is quarrelsome etc., confirming all the worst he always thought about them OIT "scoundrels". > he writes eloquent defenses of the assassin of > Gandhi [who, he says, had retreated from morality by attempting to reconcile > with Muslims] all this at his bizarre web site [and he thanks me cynically > for calling attention to this site-- grateful as all scoundrels are for the > free publicity]; he makes a weird threatening allusion to having to take care > of Salman Rushdie instead of pursuing his Vedic studies -- as if silencing > Rushdie seemed more important to him at the time than Vedic studies or > silencing me [thank goodness]. > He refuses to renounce the rampant fascism in > the popular press of India, since it exalts him as a hero of so-called free > thought [a rare European exception, he is]. He disparages all western > scholarship as motivated by some kind of Max Mueller syphilitic disease that > converts us all into fundamentalist Christians, simply because we are > appalled by the idea that India IS, all minds closed to reality, *the cradle > of civilization*, no matter what history actualy tells us. I will not dignify this diarrhoea of nonsensical defamation with an answer (though I have answered much of it on past occasions), except for the most absurd item in a uniformly ludicrous list: my plan of "silencing Salman Rushdie". For your information, I have the honour of having contributed the foreword to the Indian reprint (1998) of Dr. Daniel Pipes' authoritative book The Rushdie Affair, also published in shorter form in the Middle East Quarterly. That postscript, as well as my reporting on the Rushdie affair when it happened (in both the Flemish conservative daily Gazet van Antwerpen and leftist weekly Toestanden), of course includes a plea in favour of freedom of expression. Being acquainted with ostracism, disinvitations and other forms of being silenced myself, and conversely also having tasted the beneficial fruits of controversial debate (du choc des id?es jaillit la lumi?re), I am a known opponent of "silencing". That is also why I have failed to second Subrahmanya's question (10 July) to Dr. Wujastyk whether the same rules apply to all list members here. If they do, it would obviously imply that George Thompson must go the way of those who were thrown off the list for lesser offences than his latest hate mail, totally uncalled-for and off-topic. But no, quite unlike some others, he got off with a polite request to keep out "scoundrel" rhetoric. Just as well, for I thought that even a Vedic scholar with a mental problem should have a chance to vent his spleen. Whether an academic list is the right medium for that is a different question, but since none of the list members (certainly not those of the old boys' network whom Subrahmanya suspects of being favoured over the others) has tried to rein him in after his ill-inspired outburst, I suppose this list must indeed be the right medium. But frankly, I find that approving silence disappointing. > Blah blah blah blah blah. That's right, George. All the best, really. K. Elst From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 14 21:57:47 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 14:57:47 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227059930.23782.7793584898050668766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran: >misspelling >the names - it was not intentional. I'll take more care in the future. I was just going to heave a sigh of relief, but you spoilt it! >BTW, the "dha" in Udhayana is more pronounced and thicker than it is in >Nanda, thus justifying the "h" in the former. Really? And you also think this is a more correct spelling? I suggest you correct your pronunciation then, in addition to spelling. Paying attention to such apparently insignificant details will prevent major and unnecessary confusion, say between Madhva and Madhava. >I'm unable to understand how the "validity of knowledge", seriously >affects the argument for or against a creator God. Can you please explain? I'll be brief. The mImAMsaka and the vedAntin have to argue for svataH prAmANya, because they have to hold that scripture is self-valid (but for different reasons). Generally, most arguments about a creator and scripture boil down to, "scripture is valid because God wrote it; God exists because scripture says so." By holding to svataH-prAmANya, this circularity is avoided. The naiyyAyika does not accept that scripture, or for that matter, any other kind of knowledge, is self-valid. No proposition is valid unless it can be proved to be true. The naiyyAyikas have had to pay much attention to the nature and structure of proof, like logicians elsewhere in the world. Scripture derives its validity from being the composition of a creator God. To avoid the circularity mentioned above, any "worthy" nyAya author simply *has* to prove the existence of such a creator through independent arguments. He cannot say that he accepts a creator just because scripture says so. He has to validate his philosophical stance through what he would consider to be valid proof. And this is irrespective of when he may have lived, and irrespective of whether his opponents were "great" or not. If he had not made these arguments, he would not have been considered "worthy" or the "top" author of his school. I thought this much should have been immediately obvious to anyone with a little interest in classical Indian philosophical systems. Apparently not. I seriously suggest you read Purusottama Bilimoria's 1988 book on the subject, titled "Sabdapramana: word and knowledge," covering mImAMsA, nyAya and advaita vedAnta views. >>All I'm saying is that there has been an influence of nyAya on advaita. > >Well, that's quite a drop from the original "heaviness" of the influence! No, it is not. I don't expect anybody who hasn't made an attempt to understand the logical method followed by Sankara to get any sense of the nature of how nyAya (note, I don't include vaiSeshika here) has influenced him. The influence of nyAya on advaita is at least as heavy as on viSishTAdvaita. And in the matter of bliss and liberation, do read Vatsyayana first, and compare him with Sankara, before dismissing the possibility. Vidyasankar ps. Re: your previous mail, I refused to take the bait, with all its words of learned length and thundering sound. If you can give me at least one quotation from an advaita text that says samsAra = nirvANa, I will think about discussing it with you. If you cannot, you have misunderstood both Sankara and Nagarjuna, so there is little point in the exercise. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jul 14 22:43:27 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 15:43:27 -0700 Subject: [Re: Date of Udhayana] Message-ID: <161227059937.23782.3717686975850578847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: "Because, Udhayana isn't around to object to me for correctly spelling his name :-)" bad joke- So I am tempted to respond. I quote- hoDase nAbhijAteSu klIvase nAbhimAnisu / vidagdhasi na mugdheSu nApragalbheSu galbhase // "BTW, the "dha" in Udhayana is more pronounced and thicker than it is in Nanda, thus justifying the "h" in the former." insufficient knowledge of zikSA. I parody- kaSTaM vyAkaraNaM nUnaM zikSA kaSTatarA tataH / ko daH ko vA dha iti alprANaH mUDhAyate // Best. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 14 16:01:52 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 16:01:52 +0000 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059914.23782.16105107182511174210.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Besides, one may suppose (please correct me if there are archeological >evidence against my claim) that these were always written on the same >medium, unlike chinese that was written on scapula, turtle shells, bamboo, >silk, clay (in the moulds used in casting bronze inscriptions) which in my >opinion contributed in some way to the great variety of pre-imperial >chinese scripts. >Guillaume This possibly is not right. Not only on the steatite sealings, but on metal, clay and wood. 2-3 signs on metal amulets, on ceramics. The famous Dholavira inscription is on wood which is partially decayed. (I think Dr. Farmer wrongly spells this as Kholavira). Many wooden materials and palm leaves, possibly written with IVC signs, would have been lost forever due to the harsh climate. It looks to me that IVC people created signs for the things they made with wood. Examples: 1) the pestle-and-mortar sign (possibly connected with the husking platforms and vedic ulUkhala (related to tamil "ural-kal"), 2) Spoked wheels - what are they? Potters' wheels, as the cart wheels were made of solid wood. And, spoked wheels in chariots come after several centuries. Representing "vELir" etc., 3) The parasol sign with a vertical line topped with an inverted V. (This sign is different from the arrow sign where the tip of the arrow forms a triangle with a horizantal base. The arrow sign, occuring more numerously than the "parasol" sign, is a the female gender marker, and the rimmed jar is a male gender marker, acc. to I. Mahadevan. Read his paper in http://www.harappa.com). The "parasol" sign may represent "chief","god", "vEntu"etc., This occurs with the sign what I. Mahadevan calls as Muruku(=Skanda). If correct, Sargon's frieze in the Louvre with an attendant holding parasol behind may be a borrowal from the Harappans. Sargon of Akkad had heavy trade relations with the IVC. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Fri Jul 14 11:33:37 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 17:03:37 +0530 Subject: Sanatana Dharma Message-ID: <161227059904.23782.13847567103269868795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > A scholar friend in Pondicherry sent me this query. Can > anyone help? > > dharma, nowadays used as the equivalent of Hinduism. Since > sanatan means eternal it is supposed that the phrase itself > is eternal (!) though it does not occur in the Vedas, the > Upanishads, nor the Gita (except in kula-dharma-sanatana - > immemorial family customs). Monier Williams cites esha > dharma sanatana (this is the eternal law) without > reference, Apte, who is based on MW, repeats this and adds > a reference from the classical dramatist Bhavabhuti. Esha > dharma sanatana also occurs in the Savitri tale in the MBh > in the sense of eternal custom. I have been told that it > occurs elsewhere in the MBh but lack concordance by which I > might check this. I seem to recall it was a sort of catch > phrase in the lawbooks, but can't find it in Manu and again > lack a concordance. Do you or anyone know anything more on > this? I find it surprising nobody has thought to look > into the origins of this much misused term. I request a clarification on why do you call it a "misused" term. I think it will be better to leave to Hindus (whatever that term is supposed to mean) whatever way they think fit to call their Dharma. I do not think that commenting on that naming falls under perview of INDOLOGY list. > It of course > entered modern discourse in the mid nineteenth century, > which it was put forward as a deshi equivalent of > traditional Hinduism by people opposed to the Brahmo and > Arya Samajes. It seems to have been Sri Aurobindo and > perhaps also Vivekananda that turned the phrase to its > modern, largely vedantic, sense.> > > Thanks for any help you can give! > > Patricia > ________________________________ > Patricia M. Greer > Department of Religious Studies > University of Virginia -- Himanshu ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 15 01:20:58 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 18:20:58 -0700 Subject: message from Dr. Elst Message-ID: <161227059942.23782.5262622444596372630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > To make nominally good on another promise, here's one more piece of > decipherment by Jha/Rajaram. Their reading of the Pashupati seal is: > > Ishadyattamara > > with different possibilities for vowel length yielding different > reasonable readings, most favoured one being: "Mara tamed by Isha". In old poems of Tamil, Kaama shoots arrow at Lord Shiva on behalf of Kanchi Kamakshi. But in this seal, where is Maara/Kaama? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jul 14 22:27:18 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 18:27:18 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5944@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227059934.23782.5365413691331411158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > Less of Gandhi's > theatrical moralism and more common sense would have saved numerous lives. > > The Mahatma gave us a peep into the workings of his own mind when he > advised > refugees from West Panjab in Delhi to return home (and face certain death): > "If all Panjabis were to die willingly, Panjab will become immortal." > (someplace in Collins and Lapierre: Freedom at Midnight) This to refugees > who had lost everything and seen their relatives butchered; as Alain > Dani?lou has remarked, Gandhi was alternately ice-cold and > arch-sentimental. > > Many of gandhijis followers themselves can be quite critical of him. I > personally head angry criticism by a staunch follower on his treatment of a > pregnant kasturba when she refused to clean public latrines in south africa. > This from people who knew him personally and have been staunch followers all > their lives. People do openly discuss his faults rather than just treat him > as some undisputed symbol of morality. There is nothing strange about > treating gandhi as another human being. > Of course Gandhi was a human being. The statement above implies as though human beings are Gandhis. It takes a lot to be a Gandhi. There is organized criticism of Gandhi lately by political lobbyists. It's unfortunate. BM From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jul 14 22:31:32 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 18:31:32 -0400 Subject: message from Dr. Elst In-Reply-To: <396F9E65.7E3B@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227059932.23782.2378618131979464756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is Friday evening, time to relax. And reading one's mail: We must thank a surrogate of a surrogate of the busy decipheres of the Indus script for another bit of information (Rajaram writes that he is rather busy with translating the remnant of the c. 4000 inscriptions). >> here's one more piece of >> decipherment by Jha/Rajaram. Their reading of the Pashupati seal is: >> >> Ishadyattamara >> >> with different possibilities for vowel length yielding different reasonable >> readings, most favoured one being: >>"Mara tamed by Isha". I am shocked to see that the most obvious reading of the famous Pashupati seal has escaped the decipherers, Dr.s Jha/Rajaram. It reads: rimmed vessel - simple fish - rimmed vessel with Roman '' on top - pincers (with double handles?) - crab - simple (five stroke) man deciphered as by them as: 'any vowel' - z - dy - tt - m - r Especially in conjunction with the picture on the seal, i.e. the three-faced, crossed-legged, ithyphallic Lord of the Animals, Shiva, and following the Jha/Rajaram method, *plainly* reads: iiza udyatto merau! "The Lord, with his [ ] up, (residing) on Mt. Meru" What is up here is clearly visible on the seal. uurdhvalinga, uurdhvamanthin. Much better than to invoke overcoming the post-Vedic, Buddhist demon Maara (or the equally late god Kaama): where does the Great Yogi do that, on the seal? He merely sits there touching himself. *** On second thought, another reading, one closely following Jha's construction of compounds, many be more appproriate: 'any vowel' - z - dy - tt - m - r aazodyattaamara(H) "The [aim, resesarch, etc.] striven after out of hope is immmortal" in other, though Mleccha words: "Hope springs eternal!" ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 14 18:46:06 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 18:46:06 +0000 Subject: Harappan 'non-texts'? Message-ID: <161227059924.23782.12685433585306321754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Many wooden materials and palm leaves, possibly written with IVC >>signs, would have been lost forever due to the harsh climate. <<< This thread began, back on July 1, with four powerful arguments *against* te view that there were extensive texts written on perishable materials in the IVC. To review those arguments -- as I write this the Indology archives are "down" -- go to: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/scribalpressure.html Those arguments have not been addressed by Ganesan, who did not take part the later discussion of this issue. Instead of confronting those arguments, he choses to point to an obvious typo as proof that I misspelled a word! >>> I generally agree with your theory that long written texts might not have existed in the ivc. My point is that even within the short inscriptions, common wooden utility items seem to have been represented. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Jul 15 02:35:41 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 22:35:41 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059944.23782.17763236165764525812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/14/00 6:28:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > > Many of gandhijis followers themselves can be quite critical of him. I > > personally head angry criticism by a staunch follower on his treatment of > a > > pregnant kasturba when she refused to clean public latrines in south > africa. > > This from people who knew him personally and have been staunch followers > all > > their lives. People do openly discuss his faults rather than just treat > him > > as some undisputed symbol of morality. There is nothing strange about > > treating gandhi as another human being. > > > > Of course Gandhi was a human being. The statement above implies > as though human beings are Gandhis. It takes a lot to be a Gandhi. > There is organized criticism of Gandhi lately by political > lobbyists. It's unfortunate. > > BM Please note: this is addressed to the List, and not to K Elst [with whom I have no desire to communicate]. Clearly, reasonable people can disagree about Gandhi's politics, about his judgements at various points in his life, about some of his personal idiosyncrasies. etc. But reasonable people, I think, stop short of violence. And they do not glorify those who commit violence, whether for political or religious reasons. Whatever else might be said of Gandhi, in my view his advocacy of non-violence was a good thing. If the dispute between me and Elst were just that, it would be a very little thing indeed: two petty scholars bickering with each other. But I fear that it may be much more than that. Maybe it is not significant, but notice the violence in this language: "if I were to punch your face in, the damage done would not be one tenth of the damage done by defamation. A face can be repaired nowadays, but a bruised name?..." Those are K. Elst's words. Please note that there is nothing comparable in mine. I think that there is a significant relationship between the language of the hindutvavAdI and his actions. I am not so much troubled by words as I am by actions. To critiicize Gandhi is fair. But his hindutva enemies did not stop at criticism. And likewise today there are fanatics in India who do not stop at words. I ask the List: what is the relationship between the words of hindutva apologists and hindutva violence? In this regard, Elst and I are unimportant. But the larger question of the relationship between rhetoric and violence is important [and of course not just in India]. This question is a perennial one, of course. In my article on the Vedic brahmodya in JAOS I emphasized the point that Vedic was an agonistic culture. It has been argued that Vedic verbal contests were a sublimation of direct physical violence. In my view that is something that we can learn from Vedic culture: let us engage in a good tough argument -- it is better than killing each other. The best Vedic thinkers knew this and steered themselves and their followers away from violence. I am no devotee of Gandhi. I am neither Christian nor Muslim nor Marxist. I have no religious views whatsoever. However, I think that it is a mark of a civilized person to renounce violence. Certainly, I do so, not only in my actions but also in my rhetoric. I invite the List to judge whether I have ever been violent in this sense. And then compare the rhetoric of my enemies. So who ultimately is the greater threat to civilized discourse, and to the glory of a great civilization like India's? Best wishes, George Thompson From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jul 14 23:12:37 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 23:12:37 +0000 Subject: message from Dr. Elst Message-ID: <161227059919.23782.7410821542582203021.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, I am forwarding a message as requested by Dr. Elst. best wishes, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com Subject: Fw: Harappan deciphered Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:33:02 +0200 From: "Koenraad Elst" To: CC: "Vishal Agarwal" Dear Prof. Gupta, Could you post the following for me on the Indology list? Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst > Van: Bharat Gupt > Aan: > Verzonden: dinsdag 11 juli 2000 15:48 > > > I am also wondering if the prohibited subject AIT/OIT has not made a > > covert comeback. > > Not as far as my input on the Harappan script is concerned. As I pointed > out with reference to the Sanskritic decipherment by Jos? Calazans, thereis > no necessary connection between the language of the IVC and the IEhomeland. > In Calazans' view, the IVC language was Sanskrit yet the IE homeland wasin > Central Asia, whence they entered India in perhaps 3000 BC, a slight > chronological variant on the AIT. Conversely, Shrikant Talageri puts the > homeland to the *east* of the Indus region, in UP, and someone mightborrow > that part of his theory and combine it with a non-IE language for the IVC. > > To make nominally good on another promise, here's one more piece of > decipherment by Jha/Rajaram. Their reading of the Pashupati seal is: > > Ishadyattamara > > with different possibilities for vowel length yielding differentreasonable > readings, most favoured one being: "Mara tamed by Isha". > > If we could resume the script debate on normal terms, I would answer the > questions about N. Jha's role and methodology. But that will have to bein > another forum, for I am quitting this list. As my lamented grandmother > said: don't stay where you don't feel welcome. > > All the best. > > K. Elst From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jul 15 03:29:19 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 23:29:19 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059946.23782.1468254531318392208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Are you really serious that people are punching you on face? With a lot of respect, I must say that this gets laughable. Just don't fear. The chances of being injured by an Indologist is smaller than being injured in an accident. Please take things easy in metaphors.. Bijoy Misra On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, George Thompson wrote: > In a message dated 7/14/00 6:28:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > > > > Many of gandhijis followers themselves can be quite critical of him. I > > > personally head angry criticism by a staunch follower on his treatment > of > > a > > > pregnant kasturba when she refused to clean public latrines in south > > africa. > > > This from people who knew him personally and have been staunch followers > > all > > > their lives. People do openly discuss his faults rather than just treat > > him > > > as some undisputed symbol of morality. There is nothing strange about > > > treating gandhi as another human being. > > > > > > > Of course Gandhi was a human being. The statement above implies > > as though human beings are Gandhis. It takes a lot to be a Gandhi. > > There is organized criticism of Gandhi lately by political > > lobbyists. It's unfortunate. > > > > BM > > Please note: this is addressed to the List, and not to K Elst [with whom I > have no desire to communicate]. > > Clearly, reasonable people can disagree about Gandhi's politics, about his > judgements at various points in his life, about some of his personal > idiosyncrasies. etc. But reasonable people, I think, stop short of violence. > And they do not glorify those who commit violence, whether for political or > religious reasons. Whatever else might be said of Gandhi, in my view his > advocacy of non-violence was a good thing. > > If the dispute between me and Elst were just that, it would be a very little > thing indeed: two petty scholars bickering with each other. But I fear that > it may be much more than that. Maybe it is not significant, but notice the > violence in this language: > > "if I were to punch your face in, the damage done would not be one tenth of > the > damage done by defamation. A face can be repaired nowadays, but a bruised > name?..." > > Those are K. Elst's words. Please note that there is nothing comparable in > mine. > > I think that there is a significant relationship between the language of the > hindutvavAdI and his actions. I am not so much troubled by words as I am by > actions. To critiicize Gandhi is fair. But his hindutva enemies did not > stop at criticism. And likewise today there are fanatics in India who do not > stop at words. I ask the List: what is the relationship between the words of > hindutva apologists and hindutva violence? In this regard, Elst and I are > unimportant. But the larger question of the relationship between rhetoric > and violence is important [and of course not just in India]. > > This question is a perennial one, of course. In my article on the Vedic > brahmodya in JAOS I emphasized the point that Vedic was an agonistic culture. > It has been argued that Vedic verbal contests were a sublimation of direct > physical violence. In my view that is something that we can learn from Vedic > culture: let us engage in a good tough argument -- it is better than killing > each other. The best Vedic thinkers knew this and steered themselves and > their followers away from violence. > > I am no devotee of Gandhi. I am neither Christian nor Muslim nor Marxist. I > have no religious views whatsoever. However, I think that it is a mark of a > civilized person to renounce violence. Certainly, I do so, not only in my > actions but also in my rhetoric. I invite the List to judge whether I have > ever been violent in this sense. > > And then compare the rhetoric of my enemies. > > So who ultimately is the greater threat to civilized discourse, and to the > glory of a great civilization like India's? > > Best wishes, > > George Thompson > From GthomGt at CS.COM Sat Jul 15 03:59:37 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 00 23:59:37 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059949.23782.8529913197815856136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/14/00 11:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Are you really serious that people are punching you on face? > With a lot of respect, I must say that this gets laughable. > > Just don't fear. The chances of being injured by an Indologist > is smaller than being injured in an accident. > > Please take things easy in metaphors.. > > Bijoy Misra > No, I am talking about the relationship between rhetoric and violence, about which apparently you are clueless. What is it that you study? George Thomspon From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Jul 15 00:46:00 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 02:46:00 +0200 Subject: Logic and fudge In-Reply-To: <42.828a68b.269fbd41@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227059939.23782.17679881792105426689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Although UK "fudge" already looks bad enough, there is one US meaning that looks appropriate in our case: Am 13 Jul 2000, um 20:48 schrieb John Oliver Perry: > The American Heritage Dictionary, 2nd College ed., lists: [...] > 2. To evade (an issue for example [as Elst above?]); dodge. (But perhaps it is implied in the UK listing.) Already long ago I have given up waiting for Dr. Elst's explanation of how the year 1993 can precede 1992, or how every reference to the BJP is a reference to A.B. Vajpayee, since he called me "pedantic" for asking such questions (list members who were here in September 1999 may recall this) and announced that he would no longer respond to my postings. I am grateful that he has kept his word. Years ago, a well-known Dutch novelist, the late W.F. Hermans, who was known for his outspoken criticisms of all kinds of people (also fellow academics), was asked by an interviewer: "Whom do you dislike most: evil people or stupid people?" His response was: "First tell me what the difference is." This is indeed something to think about: those two kinds of people are often hard to tell apart, and on a certain level there really is no difference. RZ From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Sat Jul 15 04:41:10 2000 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 06:41:10 +0200 Subject: was 22k Message-ID: <161227059955.23782.7404079148766072760.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dr. Witzels posting on July 8th was 22k. >>> Posting number 22210, dated 8 Jul 2000 23:56:33 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (10k) Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii (12k) -- From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jul 15 10:58:56 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 06:58:56 -0400 Subject: Rules of Membership In-Reply-To: <8e.7cbe3c4.26a13ba9@cs.com> Message-ID: <161227059957.23782.15541858237773189835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, George Thompson wrote: > > > No, I am talking about the relationship between rhetoric and violence, about > which apparently you are clueless. What is it that you study? > You are scared twice by rhetorics. Suppose I say I study plasma in interstellar space, would you get scared? Please take the above and many as rhetoric. Scholarship is pursuit of knowledge and not being scared by language. Lately I study cognition, perception and neurology. The debate and the techniques of debate interest me. You may look up www.hms.harvard.edu/research/brain for some of our latest work. Last point: please don't be scared by trivial language expressions. Regards, BM From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Sat Jul 15 03:53:59 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 09:23:59 +0530 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059951.23782.16010824445938379452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > > "if I were to punch your face in, the damage done would not be one tenth of > the > damage done by defamation. A face can be repaired nowadays, but a bruised > name?..." > > Those are K. Elst's words. Please note that there is nothing comparable in > mine. > In our R/D Lab. engineers are developing devices that can deliver nice good punches over Internet. :-) > > And then compare the rhetoric of my enemies. > It requires two hands to clap. -- Himanshu From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Jul 15 11:00:19 2000 From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 11:00:19 +0000 Subject: message from Dr. Elst Message-ID: <161227059953.23782.17391155821713271301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > It is Friday evening, time to relax. And reading one's mail: > > We must thank a surrogate of a surrogate of the busy decipheres of the > Indus script for another bit of information ..... I thank you too Dr. Witzel for calling me a surrogate. With the current decline of politeness on the list it could have been much worse. When I decided to forward Dr. Elst's message, who was so anxious to sign off, I knew the risk I was running in being a forwarder/emissary. After all, even Krishna was not spared, I am only a humble mortal. As for surrogates, it is difficult in this devious world to decipher (even more than the Harappan script) who is a surrogate of whom. But that should be the subject of a political analysis list and not this. best wishes, Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA tel 91-11-724 1490, fax 741-5658, email: bharatgupt at vsnl.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jul 15 15:05:42 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 11:05:42 -0400 Subject: message from Dr. Elst In-Reply-To: <39704443.46A4@del3.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227059966.23782.15237077533902293790.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. Gupta writes: >I thank you too Dr. Witzel for calling me a surrogate. Yes : he transmitted a letter by Dr. Elst who writes instead of Dr. Rajaram, who tells (some of) us that he is too busy translating the Indus seals. Of course, we can only *invite* him to defend his "decipherment" himself on this list, and not via-via: He *does* have email, vide: >>>From: Vedicinst at aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:00:25 EDT Subject: Re: Spoked -wheels in the Rv To: saf at safarmer.com CC: navarat at bgl.vsnl.net.in (N.S. Rajaram), vishalagarwal at hotmail.com (Vishal Agarwal), witzel at fas.harvard.edu, kendra at bol.net.in, koenraad.elst at pandora.be, dirkgysels at hotmail.com, Vedicinst at aol.com <<< Rajaram finds time, though, to write elaborate, ---how shall we phrase it politely--- elaborate denouncements of virtually anything in Indian/South Asian Studies/Indology that does not come from an *Indian* pen or keyboard. The insulting quote given a few days ago is just a small specimen. I invite members to read his effusions on the (generally rather poisonous) website : The Sword of Truth": http://www.swordoftruth.com/ Read some of their news, commentary, between the lines, and very revealing, their POLLs!! With regard to Indology proper, read Rajaram himself: http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/arti cles.hml and on the linked site : http://voi.org/reviews/ >When I decided to forward Dr. Elst's message, who was so anxious to sign off, >I knew the risk I was running in being a forwarder/emissary. Simple question? Why did Elst not send a last message himself? Why some much via-via?? ----------------- PS: I just see that he has bothered to briefly rejoin us.... ======================== ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Jul 15 15:07:49 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 11:07:49 -0400 Subject: was 22k In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059969.23782.1699809164647301215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jaap Pranger wrote: >>Dr. Witzels posting on July 8th was 22k. > >>>> Posting number 22210, dated 8 Jul 2000 23:56:33 > >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (10k) Oh well, according a little tertiary research in "email systens:": According to EUDORA: S (Normal) Indology 7/8/00 10 Re: Harappan Deciphered?! In my: Better Telnet: as returned by INDOLOGY: 232 Jul 8 To: INDOLOGY at LISTS (23,026) Re: Harappan Deciphered?! i.e. Parts/Attachments: 1 OK 248 lines Text 2 Shown 382 lines Text 1 248 lines Text/PLAIN 2 382 lines Text/ENRICHED no. 2, Text/enriched, seems to be the guilty part. It must have been generated automatically and explains the size double of that intended. That's why attachments etc. are banned/refused automatically now, I suppose. Eudora, at which I normally look -- unless someone had used the obnoxious Outlook format which appears EMPTY in Eudora, has only this: According to Eudora: S (Normal) Indology 7/8/00 10 Re: Harappan Deciphered?! ------------------------------- Incidentally, I was talking about my other nessage: > my decipherment post which had 11k in my Eudora program, especially as I >saw thatl my older Telnet showed THE SAME message as 14,412 K. Should have split it up. Mea culpa ...... you get 22 k? < EUDORA: S (Normal) Indology 7/8/00 10 Re: Harappan Deciphered?! TELNET: 237 Jul 9 To: INDOLOGY at LISTS (14,412) Re: Harappan Deciphered? DHOLAVIRA -------------------------- Apparently we have to engange in a lot of Afterwissenschaft now. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From shrao at NYX.NET Sat Jul 15 19:26:20 2000 From: shrao at NYX.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 13:26:20 -0600 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059978.23782.13346574941408757272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Arun Gupta wrote: > Perhaps the list might be interested in the effect of their arguments on the > Hindu layperson, e.g., me. I think many Indologists truly do not understand the depth of the emotional reaction against some of their pronouncements, and perhaps are less concerned about political correctness or social acceptance than are many other researchers in the social sciences. (In this regard, I recall a remark made to me some years ago that the IVC/AIT thesis is most vigorously put forth by European scholars rather than by Americans, with the point being that America is multi-ethnic and tolerant of diverse values to a far greater extent than is Europe; American academics are far more sensitive to cultural/race issues because of America's own tortured history in this respect, and the corrective pressures towards civil rights, racial justice, &c., in contemporary American society. It would be an interesting study of the meta-issues to look into this in some depth, and study the effect, if any, a researcher's own background has on his/her choice of subjects -- surely it cannot be argued that there is no effect at all.) However, although this may be an interesting point, it does not do anything to invalidate the mainstream position, and in fact, it is arguably the case that being unaware or unheeding of emotional reactions is definitely a virtue, since it permits one to decide the issues unencumbered by concerns about political or social correctness. The risk in this, of course, is that small-minded men will seek to isolate and destroy such independent scholarship (cf. the recent decision of the BORI to deprive some members of voting rights), but that can't be helped. > So, while I have little trust in the scholarship of the Hindutva folks, I > have lost trust in the "mainstream" scholars as well. That, perhaps, is the biggest rub. While Mr. Elst appears to be so deranged from normal scholarly behavior that nothing worthwhile could ever be expected of him, it is surely as well for his critics to keep their compos mentis. Regards, Shrisha Rao > -arun gupta From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 15 13:43:48 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 13:43:48 +0000 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059964.23782.10595072433846933201.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Despite the advice given to leave them out, comments by the eminent neurosurgeon (retired) Dr. Ramamurthi shows that he is not a 'closet' hindutvavAdi. Not just him alone, English and Indian language newspapers pour out articles in increasing number about the Rigveda's age to be 70 centuries or more, Vedic Harappans, etc., proved by Sarasvati river photographed from deep space by NASA scientists! One has to wonder whether all this rhetorics will lead to violence? Over the years, I have never seen many/any postings on Dravidian or Munda data from professionals in this scholarly forum. The appeal is to increase the number of endowments and professorships on Dravidology, once the linguistic, etymon, textual analysis from the Dravidian and Munda side increase and when comparative studies between intra-Indian cultures prosper, these ridiculous claims that Aryans were the high Harappans will fade away. It always strikes me how the Dravidology is not instituitionally funded with staffing and resources, when compared with, say, the big full-time publishing industry of the Sankara studies; Sankara probably lived around 900 CE and the Sankara maths, both Kanchi and Sringeri, were not founded until after several centuries of his death. The story that Sankara founded 4 mathas in the four corners of India is even much later, starting only in the Maratha times. As we all know, the out-of-India schoolwallahs' market is the capturing of the masses in India, and their efforts mainly are directed towards the Indian public. They know that they cannot convince the professors in the Indian studies and Sanskrit depts. Most prominent of them choose to leave, and do not argue out their OIT positions. Regards, N. Ganesan >In a message dated 7/13/2000 12:13:58 PM Central Daylight Time, >vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > This is contemporary Indian politics, mixed with generic Indian > > conceptions of long yugas. After all, 50 centuries of Kali Yuga > > have already passed! The speech does not belong in Indology, and > > need not concern Indologists, unless of course, one wants to > > avoid being operated upon by a doctor who says such things. I > > don't think anybody here needs brain surgery, so Dr. Ramamurthi's > > comments are best left aside. > >I do not think the speech is as innocuous as it might seem to Vidyasankar. >One can subject the quote from Ramamurthi's speech to the same textual >analysis processes Indologists use with other texts. > >What struck me most about the speech is the quoted time of 70 centuries. >How does one go from 50 centuries of Kali yuga to 70 centuries. Is the use >of 70 centuries a common hyperbole? At least, >I have not heard it in traditional usage. If others have, I would like to >know. > >On the other hand, in the announcement of Rajaram and Jha's book in the web >site http://www.safarmer.com/pico/crackedcode.html, we find the following: > >"The implications of these findings go beyond the borders of India -- >leading to a possible change in our viewpoint on the origin of civilization >itself. Since Dholavira, according to Bisht, has shown >planned cities dating to the fourth millennium, the Vedic Civilization of >the Sarasvati heartland must go back at least to the fifth." > >"well over 70 centuries" in Ramamurthi's speech equates to stating that the >Vedic civilization must go back "at least to the fifth" millennium BC. > >To me what the speech reveals is the efficacy of the propagation of views >of Rajaram and others like him in reaching the Indian intelligentsia >outside the limited circle of Indologists. This directly relates to what >Dr. Witzel stated in his post. > >Regards >S. Palaniappan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sat Jul 15 11:56:37 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 13:56:37 +0200 Subject: Tying up loose ends; Vital statistics Message-ID: <161227059959.23782.3688085717643490927.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Resubscribe: Dr. Zydenbos' latest comment which I read in the archive reminds me that I should tie up some loose ends before leaving. So, I am posting two mails I had prepared last winter and withheld because I thought they would deviate too much into politics (this one) or exacerbate tensions on the list further (the second one, starring Dr. Zydenbos). So, this is really the last-- unsubscribe. Here goes: Prof. Karp reminds us of the conversion debate, where "ugly motives and hidden interests (were) suspected". That Hindus consider the destruction of Hinduism in village after village "ugly" is a matter of opinion. Maybe it is the other way around: Hinduism is ugly and should be destroyed to make the world more beautiful; that at least is one of the things openly declared by the Southern Baptists in their notorious recent booklet on Hinduism. But there were no "hidden interests" and the real interests had no need of being "suspected", since they were stated quite openly: from the Baptist mission to the Pope in his speech in Delhi, all authoritative spokesmen for the mission in India are quite open about their objective of converting the whole of India, indeed Asia, to Christianity. On that, the RSS and the Pope were in perfect agreement. It is only in the Orwellian world of Indian "secularism" that this could become a matter of controversy. If you shout from the rooftops that a common civil code, with equality before the law of all citizens regardless of religion (a long-standing demand of the BJP) is "anti-secular" eventhough it is a defining trait of all secular states, then anything becomes possible. In logical terms: "if both A and non-A are true, then any B is true". So then, it is no longer surprising that secularists take up the defence of the theocratic Papacy (the number one enemy of Western secularists for generations), or that they deny the conversion designs of the Churches, stated so openly in the Church literature itself, as "RSS hate propaganda". Concerning hate propaganda, the RSS could learn a few things from the secularists themselves, vide Arun Shourie's latest, "Harvesting our souls", which starts out with a few chapters of the crass disinformation by the English-language media during the conversion crisis. It so happens that the mission strategy has a linguistic component too, e.g. the Summer Institute of Linguistics which produces Bible translations for use in the conversion of even the remotest tribes. It is here on this list that I learn (from Yashwant Malaiya) that behind Ethnologue, so eager to break up Hindi into its dialects, is a religious organization with specific objectives. Those who seek to fragment an entity, whether a language or a nation or a state, usually do so all the better to subdue it or keep it down or gobble it up fragment after fragment. That is why angreziwallahs and their Western loudspeakers generally prefer a fragmented view of Hindi. There is indeed a comparison with Church policy of promoting a fragmented view of Hinduism. Regardless of whether that fragmented view is right or wrong (and i would readily admit that in important respects, it may be right to classify e.g. Jainism as a separate religion), there is just no denying that political motive. In the conversion controversy, the issue was whether tribals are Hindus or not. Under the original definition of the Persian-Muslim term "Hindu", meaning any Indian non-Abrahamite, they obviously are. But here again, something can be said for the opposite view, e.g. that most tribals eat beef. But whichever is true, the Churches' preferred definition of the religious identity of the tribals is guided purely by strategic considerations, as is obvious from their systematic double-speak. When something good is said about the tribals (new variations on the "noble savage" theme, e.g. tribal culture is feminist and egalitarian), or when they are targeted for conversion and Hindus are told not to interfere, then "tribals are not Hindus". However, when something bad is said about tribals, e.g. when they resist Christian conversion work, or when they become violent, then suddenly "Hindus" are the culprits. Thus, in 1964, when Christian Garo tribals were butchered in East Pakistan, their Christian tribals cousins in Chhotanagpur started attacking Muslims, and in the process, they killed the Flemish Jesuit Herman Rasschaert, who tried to dissuade them from killing Muslims. As Mani Shankar Aiyar (who was then embassy secretary in Brussels charged with conveying condolences to the family) has written in one of his Sunday columns, Rasschaert was killed by the very people to whom he had brought the Gospel. Yet, in all Christian accounts, Rasschaert gets killed by "Hindus", eventhough the killers were probably Christians and even if they were not, they were at any rate tribals of whom the same sources otherwise insist that they are not Hindus. In the list of "Hindu atrocities against Christians" which circulated last year, the Rasschaert murder was still included as number 2. This Christian doublespeak has strange implications. Tribals and Westerners are told that tribal religion is fairly good (except for Jesus missing), monotheistic, peaceful, egalitarian etc., while Hinduism is demonic, idolatrous, oppressive and unspeakably ugly. Yet, when missionaries are converting tribals to Christianity, the religion which they are thereby destroying is not this ugly Satanic Hinduism, but that good and noble non-Hindu tribal religion... Incidentally, Prof. Karp, it is incorrect that in the conversion debate, any "ugly motives" were "suspected". I leave it as a matter of taste whether the motive of destroying other religions in favour of Christianity is "ugly", but at least there was a perfect consensus between the Sangh and the Churches about what the motives of the missions are. When the Sangh "alleged", or accurately reported, that the Churches intend to convert India and indeed Asia to Christianity, they could and did quote a good many statements from Christian sources to that effect. The Southern Baptists had hardly published their booklet describing Hinduism as demonic darkness, when the Pope came to Delhi itself to repeat in so many words that the target is the conversion of Asia, no less. Nothing to "suspect" there, it was all out in the open. We may disagree on how to evaluate that fact, but fact it is: the Churches want to convert as many non-Christians to Christianity as they can get. It is only in the Orwellian world of Indian secularism (where the Sharia counts as secular while a uniform civil code, a defining trait of all secular states and also a BJP demand, is dubbed "communal"), that the conversion designs of the Churches could be dismissed as a figment of the Sangh's evil imagination. Does the Church also have a position on India's linguistic landscape? Yes, but it is not a single nor an unchangeable position. While especially the American missions still promote English wherever this is viable (most of all in Nagaland where English even became the state language), many others, and esp. the Catholics, use and sometimes actively promote the native languages. Some Christian theorists also promote the fragmentation of Hindi, but by no means all of them. In Chhotanagpur, the influential Flemish Jesuit mission mostly uses Hindi as medium of instruction in its schools, rather than Santali or Munda. Most tribals there are already functionally bilingual (Hindi or Bengali apart from their mother tongue), and if Congress or BJP were as aggressively pro-Hindi as some angreziwallahs and Dravidianists allege, they could easily devise a policy to wipe Mundari and Santali out in fifty years or so. This is fortunately not done. If I had a say, I would include Santali as the largest tribal and Austro-Asiatic language in the language schedule of the Constitution. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sat Jul 15 12:01:11 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 14:01:11 +0200 Subject: Politics on this list; goodbye Message-ID: <161227059962.23782.7798490599518750494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (for the record: a mail withheld from sending for the sake of peace, Dec. 1999) Dr. Wujastyk, Does one and the same set of rules apply to everyone here? In the last week there have been two personal attacks with political content on me, and you didn't find it necessary to intervene, unlike in other recent cases. 1. Irene Maradei supplies a list of URLs including fervently political ones such as the "Bible of the Aryan invasion" by Uthaya Naidu. But she adds a political comment only to mine, describing me as a "fervent Hindutva fan". I outgrew fanhood years ago, and as for my view of Hindutva, vide my critical book BJP vs. Hindu Resurgence, 1997. 2. In one of the personal attacks with which Dr. Zydenbos keeps polluting this list, he accuses me of a "preoccupation with Hitler". It happens to be a fact of history that in Nazi textbooks, the AIT scenario of dynamic white Aryans invading a country of dark natives, then imposing a racial apartheid system on them, then degenerating because of their mixing with dark natives nonetheless, was *the* illustration of the racist worldview. Like L?on Poliakov in Le Mythe Aryen, I found I could not give a fair account of the AIT without mentioning its Nazi episode. But I never deduced any conclusions about the rightness or wrongness of the theory from the political uses made of it. As you can verify, it was Zydenbos himself who chose to introduce Hitler into the recent discussion on Vedic chronology. It was also he who on October 28 made an uncalled-for reference to an unnamed "political personality" as saying that a lie repeated often enough will end up passing for the truth,-- a principle which he himself is applying with his endlessly repeated denial (as "lies", no less) of my observation that he started this whole wrangle on 12-12-1993 in his Indian Express article "An obscurantist argument". There he made several Nazi references in his attack on NS Rajaram (who didn't know Zydenbos and hadn't attacked him), e.g. he described Rajaram's non-invasionism as "close to the *Blut und Boden* ideology of Nazism". When I reminded him of this, he took his pedantry to the surrealistic extent of insisting on a distinction between a "Hitler" smear (as alleged, imprecisely, by Rajaram against him) and a "Nazi" smear (as effectively committed by him in his IE article). Such a distinction does not exist, unless you know of an employer telling an applicant: "At first I wasn't going to hire you, for I had heard that you are a Hitlerian, but since you are only a Nazi, it's OK." If Zydenbos doesn't want to own up his "Nazi" attack on Rajaram, he could simply disown it, say that he changed his mind or so. We welcome conversions to fairness. When Zydenbos denied his own statement, I had posted a correction to this list not because I have anything against Dr. Zydenbos (do reread those September E-mails or my website article to see for yourself what kid gloves I had put on before expressing my disagreement with him), but simply for the record, as yet another example of how otherwise well-behaved invasionists routinely lapse into abuse when they are faced with AIT skepticism. As for my mention of Hitler in my review of the Deshpande & Bronkhorst volume, do verify that I was commenting on such references given in the book itself (p.148) and by invasionist polemicists in general. Where people volunteer Hitler references to a debate, in most cases (not in the D&B volume) it is not as a real argument but as a trump card to knock the other side out of the debate, e.g. against ecologists: "But the great pioneer of ecology was none other than Hitler!" I have never used that kind of argument against the AIT, because unlike Zydenbos, I have more substantive arguments. And also because I have seen other debates completely derailed by contrived Hitler references. In writings about Hindutva, "Hindu fascism" rhetoric systematically replaces fact-based analysis, cfr. MJ Akbar's or MS Aiyar's pre-election phrases like "1933: If the BJP Wins..." (As we all know, in its 28 months' rule, the BJP has emulated Hitler by abolishing parliament, opening concentration camps, prohibiting interracial marriage, and a bloody Long Knives purge of its own ranks;-- must be, for none of the "Hindu fascism" mongers has yet apologized for misinforming the public). All kinds of wild stories are abroad to buttress the "Hindu fascism" line, e.g. in his acclaimed book Hitler's Priestess (p.66), N. Goodrick-Clarke writes: "After (...) March 1939, Indian opinion on Germany polarized sharply into two camps: those who would be loyal to Britain in the event of a war between Britain and Germany and those who would not. The Hindu Mahasabha adopted a particularly strong pro-German position". In reality, the HMS decided, immediately after Britain declared war on Germany, to call on all Hindu young men to join the British-Indian Army. HMS president V.D. Savarkar was derided as a "recruiting officer" by Congress activists, but it was his recruits who saved the day for Britain in Dunkirk, Libya, Iraq, Burma. Even the nadir of Hindutva history proves it: of the seven conspirators involved in Gandhi's murder, three were British-Indian Army veterans of WW2. But no reviewer has pointed this out, and Goodrick-Clarke's howler will pass into the conventional wisdom. Probably some list members are already teaching it in class. By the way, apart from the AIT, Hitler had something else in common with most India-watchers. From Mein Kampf and from the minutes of his meeting with Congress leftist Subhash Bose, it is clear that Hitler had a steep contempt for Hindus, much in contrast with his high esteem for Islam. 3. While we are at it, Dr. Wujastyk, you yourself once volunteered a political intervention here, viz. that Aditya Prakashan is a very "right-wing" publishing-house. It seems you define AIT-skeptical books as "right-wing", even when written by Marxists like Bhagwan Singh (The Vedic Harappans, 1995). For the rest, all AP books are about indological topics like music, text editions of versions of the epics and of illustrated Buddhist manuscripts (also in Chinese and Tibetan), painting etc., much of it edited by art historian Dr. Lokesh Chandra, former Congress MP. How could such topics be "right-wing", from what perspective? I'll give you one. When I was a juvenile Maoist, the bookstore where I bought my copy of the Little Red Book had some translated literature of the Cultural Revolution, then (1974) not officially over yet. That's where I read that the Buddhist manuscripts and sculptures which had fed the bonfires of Beijing were "reactionary", "feudal", "oppresive", "poisoning the people's minds with superstition". >???From Mao's angle, the Aditya Prakashan subject-matter would indeed be "right-wing", but I had not expected to run into that viewpoint here. Dr. Wujastyk, you have offered an apology to Dr. Zydenbos because Mr. Agarwal had used intemperate language ("pathetic") against him. If you owe an apology whenever a list member gets intemperate language thrown at him, you owe several to me. There definitely are class A and class B members on this list, but since that is just the way of the world, I won't make a point of it. Rather, I'll satisfy Dr. Zydenbos's repeated complaints that I haven't answered his questions, "even the most elementary one". Most elementary was certainly the question "whether 2 comes before 3". The first time he posed it, I had understood it as rhetorical, but when he started repeating it, with the grim airs of a judge entitled to an answer from the man in the dock, I wondered if I was faced with a mental case. The facts: in my website article, I had mistakenly assumed (in spite of having the correct date in footnote) that the 1993 articles by Rajaram and Zydenbos were written in 1992, due to Zydenbos' referring to the date of the 1992 Ayodhya demolition as "December 6", without giving the year. Alright, my mistake. I had also noticed the mistake when rereading the article, but since changing things on a website is pretty cumbersome for an internet beginner, I had postponed correcting it, on the assumption that it was inconsequential. My assumption that nobody would be petty-minded enough to make a point of this little mistake proved to be yet another mistake: one such person did show up. So for his benefit, I can now clarify that upon closer inspection, 2 does precede 3 (except in numbers like 32 or 9392). He also wanted to know why Westerners like Francois Gautier and myself make common cause with the so-called Hindutva forces. To the extent that this is the case, we're certainly not doing it for the money, for it is a bad career move. The answer is simpler: we are taking the stand that we are convinced is the right one. For example, we can see for ourselves that there is much truth in the BJP allegation that Nehruvian secularism really is "pseudo-secularism". Thus, India has separate religion-based civil codes, defended by all "secularist" parties: in demanding a Common Civil Code, the BJP represents secularism while the "secularist" parties uphold religious discrimination. This is a very simple fact, so simple that opponents short of arguments dismiss it as "simplistic". The question is not why *we* have noticed this fact, for it is obvious enough, but why all those tenured experts have failed to notice it. Dr. Wujastyk, I am now quitting this list, because dealing with all the abuse I have been receiving, is taking too much of my time and energy. My conclusion regarding Dr. Zydenbos is that one just can't argue with a sick mind. If I had known that a supposedly sobre academic could run away from his own words in such a nasty and destructive manner, I would never have intervened in the AIT debate on this list, which was making promising progress. But I still find it odd, Dr. Wujastyk, that you banned AIT discussion because it "doesn't bring out the best" in some of us, all while continuing to allow the very type of intervention which gave you that negative impression, esp. the calumny which Dr. Zydenbos has been spewing against Rajaram, S.R. Rao, Agarwal, and myself. Banning the debate ad rem while permitting the attacks ad hominem is a case of throwing out the baby and retaining the dirty bathwater. So, you keep what you chose to keep, and I follow the baby on his way out. Goodbye. Yours sincerely, Koenraad Elst From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Jul 15 13:06:01 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 15:06:01 +0200 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059973.23782.10507254637137714091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am Mon, 10 Jul 2000 schrieb Michael Witzel: > > Using the ingenious Rajaram/Jha method, I can read the Dholavira > inscription much better, however, not as: > > >Dholavira signboard acc. to Jha/Rajaram: > >"mad-dvaidhah-raaga-vedhaashvaih-sahasra-dhaa" --- i.e.: > > m -d - d - r -g - v - d - z - s - d > > but as: > > maitradhaa -raaghava-deza-saadha! > > "Success to the Country of Raaghava which promotes friendship!" > > [...] > In short: Mine is the *only correct* reading in the geographical and early > historical context! > You read it here first! > I suggest a contest, and let the best (most imaginative) 'reading' win! > And receive a prize. From me. I mean it. I can't resist the challenge. So here goes: What I have found astounding (no: let me say 'shocking') is that, while we are discussing the Indus Valley Culture, nobody here has realised that most of the Indus is in Pakistan. In other words, Prof. Witzel's geographical context is *entirely wrong*. Since everybody knows (so I have heard) that the skeletal remains of the ancient inhabitants do not differ from the skeletons of people at present living there, it follows that those ancients were Pakistanis and must have spoken Urdu, as is *immediately clear* from a *totally impartial, objective and scientific* reading of the inscription: m -d - d - r -g - v - d - z - s - d must mean: "madad Raghuu-de;s se do" i.e., "Give help from the land of Raghu". So while Witzel was on the right track with his 'Raaghava', he overlooked some crucial geographical facts, and this invalidates his interpretation and makes it unscientific / wrong / outrageous, hence eurocentric and condemnable with the greatest indignation. Surely some pedantic types will object that Pakistan did not exist at the time of the IVC. What should we say about such petty minds, bogged down in neo-colonial historicist constructs? (Note that the IVC cities were excavated by the Brits.) Such pathetic characters will stop at nothing to obstruct the spread of new models of thought; they may even try to satirise and ostracise me on Internet mailing lists. Yes, we have here nothing less than a *paradigm shift*, and a *progressive* one at that. Whereas conventional OIT-ers push back dates and thus are *regressive* by a few thousand years, I am pushing the IVC forward and hence am progressive. (Let us not be detained by trivial numbers. After all, what are a few millenia compared with yugas?) Cf. also the socio-political content: in that poignant inscription, the poor Pakistanis are calling for help from the land of Sri Ramachandra of Ayodhya (now liberated, since 1992), so that they may be reconverted to the Eternal Dharma ('re-', because in ancient times everybody was a sanaatanii, right?) preferably by splendid brahminical gentlemen (thanks to whose grace other people have anything at all: cf. Manu); if these persons have a background in the hard physical sciences (mathematics etc.), so much the better, since we are living in a modern time and cannot tolerate any mushy stuff (e.g., linguistics). For the long 'uu' in 'Raghuu' cf. J.T. Platts, _Urdu, Classical Hindi and English Dictionary_, publ. OUP. It is scientific and not linguistic, because I am telling you so and am a great authority, because I am living an ethos with swami Sri Sri Unmattavrishabhachetana of Muudhagrama and have bounced on cushions. However, there is no aspiration of the 'g' because at the time of the inscription Pakistan was already spiritually polluted, as the Arabic word 'madad' already indicates. How did this word get there? By sea, of course, just as the British came by sea. And by doing so, the British Aryans, in the manner of Thor Heyerdahl, have proven that the ancient Aryans came by sea, unless (OIT) the Indian Aryans crossed the sea to the Americas (Chaman Lal) and Britain first. But this demands more research. It will be in the Vedas, like everything, but we need a spiritual-cum-scientific interpreter to clarify it: a guru. Meanwhile Witzel, Farmer and others should shut up, because (as Dr. Elst has written in an essay, available on the Disinformation Highway) they abuse the "importance of being white" to intimidate Indians into believing crazy stuff, and Elst's essay implies that Indians like R. Thapar apparently cannot resist nonsense when they see it. (Where does this leave Dr. E. himself? More about that some other time, which may never come because I will probably be humiliated and walk out before I gift my wisdom to you.) They were simply born wrongly, as mlecchas, and still haven't understood the meaning of post-modernism and the New Age (which, like everything else that is good, is Out of India - OI - and could have corrected a lot in their minds). By the way, once again it has been proven (as we must prove over and over again for all eternity) that the AIT, that virulent mental disease of mlecchas and their communist sidekicks who want to destroy India, is wrong (just as Vedantins must prove forever and ever that the Caarvaakas are wrong). If should be immediately clear that this *interpretation of the Dholavira inscription* (yes), with all that it implies, is the *only right one*.-- I shall now quickly look for the number of my bank account to which the prize money should be sent. RZ From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 15 15:58:49 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 15:58:49 +0000 Subject: Rigveda/Dholavira Message-ID: <161227059971.23782.12684897191361373674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> According to Ravindra Singh Bhist(leader of the excavation team at Dholavira for the Archaeological Survey of India), this ancient city was planned on three levels:(1) a citadel,(2) a fortified middle town with spacious residences, and (3) a lower town with densely packed houses. Bhist has called these three levels parama, madhyama, and avama after the Rigvedic parameshthina, madhyameshthina, and avameshthina (see the article "Looking Beyond Indus Valley" by Vijaya Pushkarna in The Week July 26, 1998, pp 12-18). Can someone on the list point out where exactly these terms appear in the Rigveda. Thanks, Shrinivas Tilak ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Jul 15 17:42:03 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 18:42:03 +0100 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) Message-ID: <161227059975.23782.1670439652038560831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the list might be interested in the effect of their arguments on the Hindu layperson, e.g., me. Yours truly was a physicist educated in the Nehruvian schools and blissfully unaware of all this until 1990, when I first heard of the Ram Janmabhoomi/ Babri Masjid dispute. I was in Pittsburgh at the time, and had access to a fairly decent library at the U. of Pittsburgh. Reading everything I could find, it was clear that there was at least a twelvth century Vishnu or Ram temple in Ayodhya that had been demolished because of Babar, and a mosque had been built at the site. Moreover, Babar's descendant, Aurangzeb, had renewed the family tradition of demolishing Hindu temples, having done so at at least two other sites associated with Rama in Ayodhya. I was also very much against doing anything to the Masjid. In this dispute I saw the opportunity for India to make a break with the many unfortunate things in her past, continuing the trend marked by Independence, declaration of a Republic, and so on. Unfortunately that was not to be. What is relevant here is that I did discover during this dispute, that a historian like Romila Thapar was willing to lend her name to a lie for political reasons. In fact, people whom I would call leftists today, argued that lies were necessary and essential to fight the Hindutvawaadis. So, while I have little trust in the scholarship of the Hindutva folks, I have lost trust in the "mainstream" scholars as well. The high emotions expressed on this list also prove to me that neither side has convincing arguments to back up their positions. Re: decipherment of the Harappan script -- you people will make it like Fermat's last theorem in mathematics -- no respectable academic will be able to admit in public to working on the problem. You all should be ashamed of yourself. -arun gupta From zydenbos at GMX.LI Sat Jul 15 16:45:32 2000 From: zydenbos at GMX.LI (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 18:45:32 +0200 Subject: Politics on this list; goodbye In-Reply-To: <00b101bfee54$60535200$0b0fe0d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <161227059989.23782.382549048199649126.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A few words, in an attempt at countering a rewriting of some most recent history (for those who are still interested. Dr. Elst's recent performance suggests that he will be reading this too): Am Sat, 15 Jul 2000 schrieb Koenraad Elst: > As you can verify, it was Zydenbos himself > who chose to introduce Hitler into the recent discussion on Vedic > chronology. It > was also he who on October 28 made an uncalled-for reference to an unnamed > "political personality" as saying that a lie repeated often enough will end > up passing for the truth, (Here I thank Dr. Elst for again demonstrating his fixation on Hitler. The unnamed "political personality" was Goebbels, who *was* a different person.) > he > started this whole wrangle on 12-12-1993 in > his Indian Express article "An obscurantist argument". My article was (let us not conveniently forget that, Dr. Elst) a response to what N.S. Rajaram had written before, in that same paper. I did *not* start. It is all perfectly documented and dated, and I am growing tired of repeating this. > There he made > several Nazi references in his attack on NS Rajaram (who didn't know > Zydenbos and hadn't attacked him), Several references? Elst has not shown us, despite my openly offering all the materials in electronic, easily searchable form on this forum. Why should Rajaram first know me? He writes things in a public newspaper about Western scholars. I am a scholar from the 'West' and have every right to respond. And the Indian Express thought so too. > If Zydenbos doesn't want to own up his "Nazi" attack on Rajaram, I never own up what I have not done. Instead, I have offered everyone the text of my article (see below). > We welcome conversions to fairness. Yes, even if it takes more than a year for Dr. Elst to admit that 3 follows 2, I too welcome it. (See below for more.) > not because I have anything against Dr. Zydenbos (do > reread those September E-mails or my website article to see for yourself > what kid gloves I had put on before expressing my disagreement with him), Yes, gloves covered with the sweet poison of misinformation. All the e-mail is available, conveniently grouped, at: http://www.bigfoot.com/~zydenbos/laermendepolemik.html together with Rajaram's article and my response to that article. There's openness and fairness for you. (By the way: Dr. Elst also mentioned on 5 Sept. 1999 that my identity was confused with that of Rajesh Kochhar, "who had been defeated by Rajaram in a public debate on the AIT some time before and was smarting for revenge". Prof. Kochhar is with us on this list now and may be interested in giving a short update of that story - if it is not too distasteful.) > By the way, apart from the AIT, Hitler had something else in > common with most India-watchers. From Mein Kampf and from > the minutes of his meeting with Congress leftist Subhash Bose, it is clear > that Hitler had a steep contempt for Hindus, much in contrast with his high > esteem for Islam. What should we do with such a statement? I hope he is not saying that Indologists in general contemn Hindus and / or favour Islam, or that anyone who dares disagree with his version of Indian studies is a Hitlerite. That would be 'smearing', and in September 1999 he said that he disliked that... > Most elementary was certainly the question "whether 2 > comes before 3". [...] > Alright, my mistake. [...] > I had also noticed the mistake when rereading the article, but since > changing things on a website is pretty cumbersome for an internet beginner, I will refrain from commenting on Elst's apparent difficulties in reading modern newspaper English and what this means for his general qualifications as a researcher. But if ever I see a printed copy of Dr. Elst's book, I will see whether it is corrected there, and if not, I will report it here on this list - whether he is still a member or not. Correcting the text before it went to print surely would have been still less cumbersome than uploading a file. > I had postponed correcting it, on the assumption that it was > inconsequential. If the consequence is that one rambles further, with misplaced irony, on the basis of that mistake, it is not inconsequential. > So for his > benefit, I can now clarify that upon closer inspection, 2 does precede 3 > (except in numbers like 32 or 9392). No. The '3' in those numbers is not a three (as in 1993) but a thirty and a three hundred respectively, which is rather important in chronological questions. *Very* bad fudging - *especially* for an Indologist with scientific interests! The other question I repeated remains fudged - typically - between all the tangled political diatribe that confirms what I have believed for a long time: that these 'debates' about 'AIT' and ancient Indian history are not at all what they ostensibly claim to be (viz., a search for scholarly truth about ancient India), but an instrument of present-day political propaganda in the hands of people with a particular agenda and mindset. Cf. the discussions about the rewriting of history here and on RISA-L (October 1999). > My conclusion regarding Dr. Zydenbos is that one > just can't argue with a sick mind. What a delightfully ambiguous statement. Perhaps it is not the wild insult it seems to be at first sight, but rather an unexpected and sad moment of confession. ;-) I think Dr. Elst needs a long vacation. To conclude: A bully (whether his name is Rajaram or Elst) should not complain when a bullied person (whether as a member of a group or as a named individual) has the guts to hit back. Anyhow, I am going on a trip for a month and will not write to this list for a while - and I really mean this, and will not keep making encores like Dr. Elst. RZ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 16 02:29:09 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 19:29:09 -0700 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227059993.23782.17537313304392551220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >etc., proved by Sarasvati river photographed from deep space by >NASA scientists! One has to wonder whether all this rhetorics >will lead to violence? Seems like rather unnecessary paranoia, and directed at the wrong source. For one thing, there is already too much violence in India, and due to other kinds of rhetoric. For another, what a few people in Madras based organizations like TAMBRAS and AIBF think is hardly going to affect the rest of the country. The "All-India" Brahmin Federation is even less All India than the All India Anna DMK. It is not even All Tamil Nadu to begin with. >The appeal is to increase the number of endowments and professorships >on Dravidology, once the linguistic, etymon, textual analysis Where is the money to come from? And you seem to be appealing to the very people who are struggling to find institutional support of their research. Rather misdirected, I should think. >from the Dravidian and Munda side increase and when comparative >studies between intra-Indian cultures prosper, these ridiculous >claims that Aryans were the high Harappans will fade away. This underestimates the continuing political power of certain groups as much as the earlier comment overestimates that of others. >It always strikes me how the Dravidology is not instituitionally >funded with staffing and resources, when compared with, say, >the big full-time publishing industry of the Sankara studies; Well, don't worry about that. Interest in Sankara studies is rapidly dwindling too. I have yet to see a single response to my simple question about studies of his chAndogya upanishad bhAshya. In any case, I'm mystified why Sankara has to be singled out here. If you really look at what is happening, the big-time publishing industry nowadays has to do with Abhinavagupta. The dogma is rapidly getting established that anything that is "Tantric" has to do with Kashmir. Tirumular and other Tamil icons get almost zero attention. >Sankara probably lived around 900 CE and the Sankara maths, both In this, you reveal as much contempt for rigorous scholarship as the right wing fanatics you oppose. This date is too late. >Kanchi and Sringeri, were not founded until after several centuries Why single out these two? Just because they are in the south? >of his death. The story that Sankara founded 4 mathas in the >four corners of India is even much later, starting only in the >Maratha times. Let's see, the only other person on this list who has made this comment about "Maratha origin" is Swaminathan Madhuresan. Both of you share such a remarkable congruity of views on every possible item of discussion, one begins to wonder whether the only thing that divides you two is a computer account. Sorry, couldn't resist that. >As we all know, the out-of-India schoolwallahs' market is the >capturing of the masses in India, and their efforts mainly are >directed towards the Indian public. They know that they cannot >convince the professors in the Indian studies and Sanskrit depts. >Most prominent of them choose to leave, and do not argue out >their OIT positions. Leave what? And who does not argue? Have you been reading this list recently? Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 16 05:20:21 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 22:20:21 -0700 Subject: Next Steps in Harappan Decipherment Message-ID: <161227059998.23782.7628034448607794277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel writes: > Rather, what needs to be done, is not to engage in lofty speculations > but to start from square one: a proper list of characters and of sign > combinations. 800, not 400 signs. The Indus matter *may* indeed > be unsolvable with present materials in hand. Can I add that a separate catalog is needed that focuses exclusively on *datable* characters found at individual sites? All the concordances that I've seen clump everything into an undifferentiated mega-period. The recent study by Bryan Wells (1999) lists important regional variants, but again passes over chronological issues. Some of this may arise from poor archaeological controls in early IVC excavations that yielded the most "seals," but I have the sense from reading the old reports that more raw data is available on dates than show up in existing concordances. Maybe Parpola et al. are right in claiming that evolution in the script is minimal. I accepted this claim at the start of this thread in concluding -- based on the apparent lack of normal scribal pressure forcing script change -- that no extensive 'lost' Harappan texts ever existed. But that conclusion can't be verified unless study of a reasonable subset of datable examples shows that change in the script was in fact minimal -- at least in the mature Harappan period. Steve Farmer From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 16 03:56:27 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 00 23:56:27 -0400 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059996.23782.14908540745819873233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta: >So, while I have little trust in the scholarship of the Hindutva folks, I >have lost trust in the "mainstream" scholars as well. I do not wish to enter that discussion since it is almost entirely political. However: >Re: decipherment of the Harappan script -- you people will make it like >Fermat's last theorem in mathematics -- no respectable academic will be able >to admit in public to working on the problem. You all should be ashamed >of yourself. I think if we indeed have to talk of 'shame' here is is to be assumed by all those who broadcast earth shattering discoveries, though these are based on VERY limited foundations -- as shown repeatedly in this list, and by those who in doing so rewrite the history of S. Asia as it pleases them. Rather, what needs to be done, is not to engage in lofty speculations but to start from square one: a proper list of characters and of sign combinations. 800, not 400 signs. The Indus matter *may* indeed be unsolvable with present materials in hand. But, so was the Maya script, or so some scholars insisted, while others published similar grand decipherments, -- until gradual progress was made through a step-by step approach and *cooperation* of a few scholars. Once read, the peaceful Maya turned out to be as warlike and bloodthursty as everybody else everywhere anytime. The great difference between the Maya decipherment and that of the Indus script is of course that we have still their descendants, only 500 years later, speaking various Maya languages, in the same area, and that we even have a contemporaneous mythological text (Popol Vuh) that is already written in Latin characters. Basically, it came down to decipher the admittedly difficult script . None of the such materials exist for the Indus script. Neither the language nor the meaning of script is known. In that sense, you have your Fermat's theorem. But, both the script as well as the possibly underlying languages can be put to a number of tests, starting with a definite character list. Second, no languages except Pseudo-Vedic Sanskrit and Proto-Dravidian (erroneoausly called: a language never spoken by a people that never existed, to parapharase Rajaram) have been tried out in detail, with some of the results seen on this list. Both languages MAY have indeed been spoken in the Indus area by *some* people, we cannot be sure at this time. However, there are scores of other languages that need to be tested, from Burushaski to Para-Munda (preserved in some 300 loan words in the Rgveda), Masica's language X of the Gangetic plains, Pre-Nahali, Pre-Tharu, Proto-Kusunda, Pre-Kashmiri, and the loans of the BMAC language (in Rgveda/Old Iranian) --- all of them either surviving as modern languages or as substrates in the areas that neighbor the Indus Civilization. As I have pointed out, nobody has looked in to the substrate of Panjabi and Sindhi - the two most likely candidates for some restricted survivals of the Indus language(s). These languages have not been studied for that purpose. And why don't the various 'decipherers" take an interest in this? They already KNOW what the characters of the script mean and WHICH language they represent. That is, however, optimism at best or (self-)delusion at worst. Test and re-test! That will at least allow us to say: "we have a possible solution" or: "there is not enough evidence to be sure." Everything else is speculation. It is of course our duty to point out such wong turns or phantasies. Scholarship progresses dialectically. For details of past failures one should read G. Possehl's list & discussion of failed atttempts: Indus Age, The Writing System . New Delhi/Calcutta 1996. I hope that clears the air. ------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jul 16 00:29:23 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 01:29:23 +0100 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059980.23782.2232800914170695561.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Arun Gupta wrote: > Yours truly was a physicist educated in the Nehruvian schools and > blissfully unaware of all [...] As the Scope document for this list clearly states (see www.indology.org.uk), this list is intended for the exchange of ideas between university-level workers in classical Indian studies. If you do not have a degree in Sanskrit, Persian, Tamil, or a related field of classical Indian studies, or regularly attend professional Indological conferences, or subscribe to the Indological journals, you are welcome to lurk on the list, but please refrain from participating, especially with long postings on matters you feel passionate about. I am responding to a posting by Dr Gupta, who provocatively opens his message with an announcement of his lack of adhikaara for this list, but I am addressing this to all members. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jul 16 00:32:27 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 01:32:27 +0100 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227059982.23782.757233390990589323.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Shrisha Rao wrote: > That, perhaps, is the biggest rub. While Mr. Elst appears to be so > deranged from normal scholarly behavior that nothing worthwhile could ever > be expected of him, it is surely as well for his critics to keep their > compos mentis. I'm afraid that I do not tolerate public remarks of this kind about other members of this list. Your membership is being cancelled forthwith. I have REPEATEDLY urged members to be polite about each other. I insist on this. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jul 16 00:46:32 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 01:46:32 +0100 Subject: The tone of the IV script decipherment discussion Message-ID: <161227059985.23782.686559548869275581.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I request the participants in the discussion of this topic to adopt a sober and dry tone, please. Some postings which disagree with the Rajram decipherment have a mocking and ironical tenor, and there has even been some horseplay. I'm all for fun, even rough fun, but on this occasion I think that our general purposes as scholars will be best served by taking the matter of the IV script decipherment attempts as seriously as possible, and limiting our remarks as far as possible to genuinely scholarly responses to the matter in hand. There's no need to be jocose, and I think we'll all come through this better, learn more, and perhaps advance knowledge to a greater degree, if we restrain ourselves somewhat. Incidentally, would like to thank those members who have offered learned contributions on the topic. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jul 16 01:05:58 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 02:05:58 +0100 Subject: www.newagebooksindia.com In-Reply-To: <007801bfea3c$3f252700$03000004@ravi> Message-ID: <161227059987.23782.9200978034892509394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Motilal Banarsidass, It is strictly forbidden for anyone to use the INDOLOGY list to promote commercial interests. This applies particularly to advertisement. If your postings promoting commercial services recur, I shall be obliged to cancel your subscription. If you wish to contact me privately and request a URL link on the INDOLOGY website, I should be glad to consider your request. This way, people who want your information can seek it out easily, and the 600+ members of the list do not need to suffer a direct e-mailshot. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sun Jul 16 07:11:19 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 08:11:19 +0100 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060001.23782.4998957793133816102.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik, I can understand why, but I think you might have over-reacted here. 'Deranged' doesn't necessarily mean 'insane'; see OED. It can just mean 'disorganized' 'caused to act irregularly'. Used with 'from' it must have such a meaning. You are reading too much medical terminology into the post :-) It seems a fairly objective description of the behaviour of someone who leaves, returns and then leaves again with long announcements ! In general, however, please do clamp down. There is some rather silly malicious posting which serves no useful purpose and is very boring to have to keep reading. Unfortunately, there is no relationship between brilliance of scholarship and maturity of personality. In particular, it would be nice if people would draw a line under the past discussions and not keep referring back to what this or that person did or didn't do. Lance Cousins >On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Shrisha Rao wrote: > >> That, perhaps, is the biggest rub. While Mr. Elst appears to be so >> deranged from normal scholarly behavior that nothing worthwhile could ever >> be expected of him, it is surely as well for his critics to keep their >> compos mentis. > >I'm afraid that I do not tolerate public remarks of this kind about other >members of this list. Your membership is being cancelled forthwith. > >I have REPEATEDLY urged members to be polite about each other. I insist >on this. -- HEADINGTON, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS: selwyn at ntlworld.com From mahachula1 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 16 09:15:42 2000 From: mahachula1 at HOTMAIL.COM (Dhammametto Bhikkhu) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 09:15:42 +0000 Subject: Rules of Membership Message-ID: <161227059991.23782.3457520249385165928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >In a message dated 7/14/00 11:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU writes: > > > Are you really serious that people are punching you on face? > > With a lot of respect, I must say that this gets laughable. > >... > > Please take things easy in metaphors.. > > > > Bijoy Misra If one were to use the terms 'you' (your) 'face' and 'punch' in any discussion (save discriptive medical anatomy), it most certainly IMHO constitutes a violent gesture. The fact that metaphors are (or not) used does not eliminate the violence. Why use such terminology when so many other means of expression exist? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 16 13:43:26 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 09:43:26 -0400 Subject: message from Dr. Elst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060013.23782.1333085211072729330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dr Abbas, Are we here to condemn Rajaram or disagree with his research views? If latter is the case, it's not necessary to go into "investigating" him. It seems that people disagree to his work. Let new work come out than asking why he found what he found. Let's be scientific, not political. There is considerable bias in all sociology. Our goal should be to feel unbiased ourselves. Please try. Regards, BM On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Samar Abbas wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > > Rajaram...write[s] elaborate denouncements of virtually anything in > > Indology..I invite members to read his effusions on the (generally rather > > poisonous) website `The Sword of Truth": > > > > http://www.swordoftruth.com/ > > http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.hml > > Does anybody know who runs this website where Pandit Rajaram publishes his > propaganda ? Is it an organisation or some individual ? Where is it > located ? Do the webmasters have any political connections ? > > Samar > From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 16 13:45:48 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 09:45:48 -0400 Subject: Politics on this list; goodbye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060016.23782.15483447495551608957.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Message to Elst that didn't make it. On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Bijoy Misra wrote: > > > Dr Elst, > > You should make peace and stay in this list. > Research is always argued. No one is definitive. > We move by analysis and understanding. > > There is an establishment culture and "counterculture". > Sometimes the counterculture is right. History is > ridden with examples where the establishment tries > to trash an anti-establishment opinion. > > We are here to further knowledge. Ask Dr Rajaram to > be a part of this list. This list should grow and > create inroads into the history of India and its > culture. I am proud that you have devoted time > towards this effort. > > People are not bright enough to work in isolation. > People are also not bright enough to tolerate each > other's views. Indology will gradually grow from > such shallow thinking to understand how the > himan civilization indeed began. We have to > diligently work towards it. > > I appeal to all to forgive each other and look > to a distant horizon with zeal and enthusiasm. > On behalf of people of Indian origin in the list, > I must express our deep appreciation to each > of you that you bring so much devotion to > a culture that we live. We need to move forward. > > Best regards, > > Bijoy Misra > > > > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Koenraad Elst wrote: > > > (for the record: a mail withheld from sending for the sake of peace, Dec. > > 1999) > > > > Dr. Wujastyk, > > Does one and the same set of rules apply to > > everyone here? In the last week there have been two personal attacks with > > political content on me, and you > > didn't find it necessary to intervene, unlike in other recent cases. > > 1. Irene Maradei supplies a list of URLs including fervently > > political ones such as the "Bible of the Aryan invasion" by Uthaya Naidu. > > But she adds a political comment only to mine, describing me as a "fervent > > Hindutva fan". I outgrew fanhood years ago, and as for my view of > > Hindutva, vide my critical book BJP vs. Hindu Resurgence, 1997. > > 2. In one of the personal attacks with which Dr. Zydenbos > > keeps polluting this list, he accuses me of a "preoccupation with Hitler". > > It happens to be a fact of history that in Nazi textbooks, the AIT scenario > > of dynamic > > white Aryans invading a country of dark natives, then imposing a racial > > apartheid system on them, then degenerating because of their mixing with > > dark natives nonetheless, was *the* illustration of the racist worldview. > > Like L?on Poliakov in Le > > Mythe Aryen, I found I could not give a fair account of the AIT without > > mentioning its Nazi episode. But I never deduced any conclusions about the > > rightness or wrongness of the theory from the political uses made of it. > > As you can verify, it was Zydenbos himself > > who chose to introduce Hitler into the recent discussion on Vedic > > chronology. It > > was also he who on October 28 made an uncalled-for reference to an unnamed > > "political personality" as saying that a lie repeated often enough will end > > up passing for the truth,-- a principle which he himself is applying with > > his endlessly repeated denial (as "lies", no less) of my observation that he > > started this whole wrangle on 12-12-1993 in > > his Indian Express article "An obscurantist argument". There he made > > several Nazi references in his attack on NS Rajaram (who didn't know > > Zydenbos and hadn't attacked him), e.g. he described Rajaram's > > non-invasionism as "close to the *Blut und Boden* ideology of > > Nazism". When I reminded him of this, he took his pedantry to > > the surrealistic extent of insisting on a distinction between a "Hitler" > > smear (as alleged, imprecisely, by Rajaram against him) > > and a "Nazi" smear (as effectively committed by him in his IE article). > > Such a distinction does not exist, unless you know of an employer telling an > > applicant: "At first I wasn't going to hire you, for I had heard that you > > are a > > Hitlerian, but since you are only a Nazi, it's OK." > > If Zydenbos doesn't want to own up his "Nazi" attack on Rajaram, > > he could simply disown it, say that he changed his mind or so. We welcome > > conversions to fairness. When Zydenbos denied his own statement, I had > > posted a correction to this > > list not because I have anything against Dr. Zydenbos (do > > reread those September E-mails or my website article to see for yourself > > what kid gloves I had put on before expressing my disagreement with him), > > but simply for the record, as yet another example of how > > otherwise well-behaved invasionists routinely lapse into abuse when they are > > faced with AIT skepticism. > > As for my mention of Hitler in my review of the Deshpande & > > Bronkhorst volume, do verify that I was commenting on such references > > given in the book itself (p.148) and by invasionist polemicists in general. > > Where people volunteer Hitler references to a debate, in most cases (not in > > the D&B volume) it is not as a real argument but as a trump card to knock > > the other side out of the debate, e.g. against ecologists: "But the great > > pioneer of > > ecology was none other than Hitler!" I have never > > used that kind of argument against the AIT, because unlike Zydenbos, I have > > more substantive arguments. > > And also because I have seen other debates completely derailed > > by contrived Hitler references. In writings about Hindutva, "Hindu fascism" > > rhetoric systematically replaces fact-based analysis, cfr. MJ > > Akbar's or MS Aiyar's pre-election phrases like "1933: If the BJP Wins..." > > (As we all know, in its 28 months' rule, the BJP has emulated Hitler by > > abolishing parliament, opening concentration camps, prohibiting interracial > > marriage, and a bloody Long Knives purge of its own ranks;-- must be, for > > none of the > > "Hindu fascism" mongers has yet apologized for misinforming the public). > > All kinds of wild stories are abroad to buttress the "Hindu fascism" line, > > e.g. in his acclaimed book Hitler's Priestess (p.66), N. > > Goodrick-Clarke writes: "After (...) March 1939, Indian opinion on Germany > > polarized sharply into two camps: those who would be loyal to Britain in the > > event of a war between Britain and Germany and those who would not. The > > Hindu Mahasabha adopted a particularly strong pro-German position". In > > reality, > > the HMS decided, immediately after Britain declared war on > > Germany, to call on all Hindu young men to join the British-Indian Army. > > HMS president V.D. Savarkar was derided as a "recruiting officer" by > > Congress activists, but it was his recruits who > > saved the day for Britain in Dunkirk, Libya, Iraq, Burma. Even the nadir of > > Hindutva history proves it: of the seven conspirators involved in Gandhi's > > murder, three were British-Indian Army veterans of WW2. But no reviewer has > > pointed this out, and Goodrick-Clarke's howler will pass into the > > conventional wisdom. Probably some list members are already teaching it in > > class. > > By the way, apart from the AIT, Hitler had something else in > > common with most India-watchers. From Mein Kampf and from > > the minutes of his meeting with Congress leftist Subhash Bose, it is clear > > that Hitler had a steep contempt for Hindus, much in contrast with his high > > esteem for Islam. > > 3. While we are at it, Dr. Wujastyk, you yourself once > > volunteered a political intervention here, viz. that Aditya Prakashan is a > > very "right-wing" publishing-house. It seems you define AIT-skeptical books > > as "right-wing", even when written by Marxists like Bhagwan Singh (The Vedic > > Harappans, 1995). For the rest, all AP books are about > > indological topics like music, text editions of versions of the epics and of > > illustrated Buddhist manuscripts (also in Chinese and Tibetan), painting > > etc., much of it edited by art historian Dr. Lokesh Chandra, former Congress > > MP. How could such topics be "right-wing", from what perspective? I'll > > give you one. When I was a juvenile Maoist, the bookstore where I bought my > > copy of the Little Red Book had some translated literature of the Cultural > > Revolution, then (1974) not officially over yet. That's where I read that > > the Buddhist manuscripts and sculptures > > which had fed the bonfires of Beijing were "reactionary", "feudal", > > "oppresive", "poisoning the people's minds with superstition". > > >From Mao's angle, the Aditya Prakashan subject-matter would indeed be > > "right-wing", but I had not expected to run into that viewpoint here. > > Dr. Wujastyk, you have offered an apology to Dr. Zydenbos > > because Mr. Agarwal had used intemperate language ("pathetic") against him. > > If you owe an apology whenever a list member gets intemperate language > > thrown at him, you owe several to me. There definitely are class A and > > class B > > members on this list, but since that is just the way of the world, I won't > > make > > a point of it. Rather, I'll satisfy Dr. Zydenbos's repeated complaints that > > I haven't answered his questions, "even the most elementary one". > > Most elementary was certainly the question "whether 2 > > comes before 3". The first time he posed it, I had understood it > > as rhetorical, but when he started repeating it, with the grim airs of a > > judge entitled to an answer from the man in the dock, I wondered if I > > was faced with a mental case. The facts: in my website article, I had > > mistakenly assumed (in spite of having the correct date in footnote) that > > the 1993 articles by Rajaram and Zydenbos were written in 1992, due to > > Zydenbos' referring to the date of the 1992 Ayodhya demolition as "December > > 6", > > without giving the year. Alright, my mistake. > > I had also noticed the mistake when rereading the article, but since > > changing things on a website is pretty cumbersome for an internet beginner, > > I had postponed correcting it, on the assumption that it was > > inconsequential. My assumption that nobody would be petty-minded > > enough to make a point of this little mistake proved to be yet another > > mistake: one such person did show up. So for his > > benefit, I can now clarify that upon closer inspection, 2 does precede 3 > > (except in numbers like 32 or 9392). > > He also wanted to know why Westerners like Francois > > Gautier and myself make common cause with > > the so-called Hindutva forces. To the extent that this is the case, we're > > certainly not doing it for the money, for it is a bad career move. The > > answer is simpler: we are taking the stand that we are convinced is the > > right one. For example, we can see for ourselves that there is much truth > > in the > > BJP allegation that Nehruvian secularism really is "pseudo-secularism". > > Thus, India has separate religion-based civil codes, defended by all > > "secularist" parties: in demanding a Common Civil Code, the BJP represents > > secularism while the "secularist" parties uphold religious > > discrimination. This is a very simple fact, so simple that opponents short > > of arguments dismiss it as "simplistic". The question is not why *we* have > > noticed this fact, for it is obvious enough, but why all those tenured > > experts have failed to notice it. > > Dr. Wujastyk, I am now quitting this list, because dealing with all > > the abuse I have been receiving, is taking too much of my time and energy. > > My conclusion regarding Dr. Zydenbos is that one > > just can't argue with a sick mind. If I had known that a supposedly sobre > > academic could run away from his own words in such a nasty and destructive > > manner, I would never have intervened in the AIT debate on this list, which > > was making promising > > progress. > > But I still find it odd, Dr. Wujastyk, that you banned AIT > > discussion > > because it "doesn't bring out the best" in some of us, all while continuing > > to allow the very type of intervention which gave you that negative > > impression, esp. > > the calumny which Dr. Zydenbos has been spewing against Rajaram, S.R. Rao, > > Agarwal, and > > myself. Banning the debate ad rem while permitting the attacks ad hominem > > is a case of throwing out the baby and retaining the dirty bathwater. So, > > you keep what you chose to keep, and I follow the baby on his way out. > > Goodbye. > > > > Yours sincerely, > > Koenraad Elst > > > > From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Jul 16 08:46:21 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 09:46:21 +0100 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060003.23782.13222013630855379135.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrisha Rao wrote: >I think many Indologists truly do not understand the depth of the >emotional reaction against some of their pronouncements, and perhaps are >less concerned about political correctness or social acceptance than are >many other researchers in the social sciences. I think this is probably true. But perhaps some Indian scholars also do not appreciate how hurtful it is when our motives for studying the subject are maligned. I believe that most of us took up the subject from a deep love and respect for the cultures of South Asia, often in the face of opposition and hardship, and (in the case of the older generation, at least) against the prevailing values of our societies at the time. Studying Indology is not a route to fame or fortune! So let us argue with one another's ideas, but not attack one another's sincerity. L. S. Cousins wrote: >Dominik, > >I can understand why, but I think you might have over-reacted here. I agree. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sun Jul 16 16:20:40 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 12:20:40 -0400 Subject: Deciphered!!! (was: Harappan Deciphered?!) Message-ID: <161227060024.23782.4276404710257519161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/16/00 4:47:37 AM, vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET writes: >I think this is probably true. But perhaps some Indian scholars also do >not appreciate how hurtful it is when our motives for studying the subject >are maligned. I believe that most of us took up the subject from a deep >love and respect for the cultures of South Asia, often in the face of >opposition and hardship, and (in the case of the older generation, at >least) against the prevailing values of our societies at the time. >Studying Indology is not a route to fame or fortune! So let us argue with >one another's ideas, but not attack one another's sincerity. This is true. The opportunity cost of studying India is staggering. -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sun Jul 16 11:48:05 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 12:48:05 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY management In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060010.23782.12979312420067467874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Because things have got a bit argumentative recently, and because I feel free to cancel subscriptions of people who I think have been rude, several members of the list have written to me to tell me their views. Either I'm doing a great job, or I'm not. I should have done this, or that, etc. etc. Please note two things: I have engaged in private email exchanges with several of the people involved in the recent scuffles. These exchanges are unknown to members of the list, as I intend them to be. But members are wrong to assume that just because they do not see a public message from me to someone on the list that I have not corresponded with that person. Actually, I only make email meta-exchanges public when I think there is a sufficiently good reason to do so. There's a lot going on behind the scenes that is not publicly shared on the list. Secondly, I cannot engage in long discussions with individual members about what I've done, or failed to do, simply because the time I devote to running the list is limited. This limitation leads me to mistakes of comission and omission sometimes, I know. For that I can only apologise. Many of the emails I receive about my management of the list are angry, vindictive, and rude, and full of accusations of bias and so forth. Most of these charges are based on hasty judgements, partial knowledge of the communications that have actually taken place, and so forth. I can't and won't explain all details of and reasons for what I've done to every person that emails me. The INDOLOGY list is meant (deep breath) for the discussion of issues relating to classical India. There are now many other forums available for similar types of discussion. I founded INDOLOGY and I have certain proprietarial feelings about it. I absolutely insist on a basic minimum standard of politeness and good order. People who insult other members (in my judgement) will have their memberships cancelled. People who post very long messages, or who monopolize the discussion through excessively frequent postings will also be warned, and possibly unsubscribed. All the best Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY list founder From mlbd at VSNL.COM Sun Jul 16 09:27:31 2000 From: mlbd at VSNL.COM (MLBD) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 14:57:31 +0530 Subject: www.newagebooksindia.com Message-ID: <161227060006.23782.8482090661588120915.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Dominik, Thanks for your email of 16th July. I hope you and your family is keeping well. I will be happy if you link our sites in your indology website since the people who discuss topics can easily visit us and order books whenever the need be. Following our the site addresses. New Age Books : www.newagebooksindia.com Motilal Banarsidass : http://www.mlbd.com and www.mlbdbooks.com Sincerely, Rajeev Jain Motilal Banarsidass Publishers 41, UA Bungalow Road, Jawahar Nagar Delhi-110007, India Tel : (011) 3974826; 3911985; 3918335; 3932747 (011) 5795180; 5793423; 5797356 Fax : (011) 3930689; 5797221 Email: mlbd at vsnl.com & gloryindia at poboxes.com Website: www.mlbdbooks.com ************************************************************* God sleeps in minerals,awakens in plants; Walks in animals and thinks in man. GOD IS MAN MINUS HIS DESIRES ********************************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 6:35 AM Subject: Re: www.newagebooksindia.com > Dear Motilal Banarsidass, > > It is strictly forbidden for anyone to use the INDOLOGY list to promote > commercial interests. This applies particularly to advertisement. > > If your postings promoting commercial services recur, I shall be obliged > to cancel your subscription. > > If you wish to contact me privately and request a URL link on the INDOLOGY > website, I should be glad to consider your request. > > This way, people who want your information can seek it out easily, and the > 600+ members of the list do not need to suffer a direct e-mailshot. > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Sun Jul 16 09:51:27 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 15:21:27 +0530 Subject: message from Dr. Elst In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060008.23782.10442598926269460896.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > Rajaram...write[s] elaborate denouncements of virtually anything in > Indology..I invite members to read his effusions on the (generally rather > poisonous) website `The Sword of Truth": > > http://www.swordoftruth.com/ > http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/articles.hml Does anybody know who runs this website where Pandit Rajaram publishes his propaganda ? Is it an organisation or some individual ? Where is it located ? Do the webmasters have any political connections ? Samar From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 16 15:47:35 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 15:47:35 +0000 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060021.23782.15584164141687886857.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> K. Raja's ALB paper concludes that Adi Sankara (800 CE) date mainly depends on taking vAcaspatimizra to have lived around 841 CE. K. Kunjunni Raja, On the date of "SaMkarAcArya and allied problems, ALB, 1963, v. 24 "Conclusion: A detailed examination of all the evidence leads us to the following conclusion. "SaMkara is later than BhartRhari, DiGnAga, GauDapAda, DharmakIrti and KumArila and cannot be earlier than A.D. 650. Since VAcaspati wrote one of his works in A.D. 841, and since he is later than "SaMkara by one or two generations, "SaMkara has to be placed before A.D. 800. The absence of any reference to the philosophical system of "SaMkara in the works of "SAntarakSita and KamalazIla, even when they discuss an AdvaitavAda under the heading of UpaniSadvAda, and also in the work of HaribhadrasUri shows that "SaMkara's theories had not spread by the second half of the eigth century. Hence the works of "SaMkara must have been composed towards the close of the eigth century A.D." However, in a note to a query about the date of vAcaspati, Dr. Birgit Kellner informed me: (Re: vAcaspatimizra, 5 Jan 2000) "[..](3) BhAsarvajJa as a younger contemporary of VAcaspati, both of whom can be placed around the middle of the 10th century *earliest*. At the same time, the date of Udayana features as a terminus ante quem for VAcaspati - since Udayana's LakSaNAvalI was composed 984/5 (Zaka 906), and since Udayana (a) wrote a commentary on VAcaspati's NyAyavArttikatAtparyaTIkA and (b) Udayana defends VAcaspatimiZra against JJAnaZrImitra (in combination with a few other factors, see Srinivasan). Hence, a dating of VAcaspati, or, to be more accurate, his NyAya works in the latter half of the 10th century seems plausible. [There is also the issue of the NyAyasUcInibandha, attributed to VAcaspati and dated 898. Srinivasan doubts the authorship of VAcaspati. Certain scholars interpret this as a Vikrama-date = 841 C.E. Slaje thinks that *if* the NSN is a work of V., then the date must belong to the Zaka-era = 976/7 C.E.]" It is often claimed in this list that Kunjunni Raja supports a date of 800 CE for Adi Sankara. But, this 800 date is arrived at by taking vAcaspati's as 841. If Slaje and Srinivasan are right about the 976 CE date for vAcaspati, then Adi Sankara date must also correspondingly brought forward by atleast a century. Is it not? Already I referred to the earliest mention of Adi Sankara's work in a Chola inscription of 1065 AD. Available inscriptions relating to Sankara and a comparative method used to date the Bhakti saints like Srivaishnava Alvars and Shaivaite Nayanmars also support a date more like 900 CE rather than the date (788-820 CE) usually assigned for Adi Sankaracharya (proposed in the 19th century by Tiele, K. B. Pathak). Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 17 00:13:23 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 17:13:23 -0700 Subject: Update Message-ID: <161227060036.23782.15747331275995962632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those list-members who might still be interested in the Jyotirmath Sankaracarya succession (discussion from more than 2 years ago): My article on the dispute, available at the Indology website, has now been updated, taking into account some information otained recently from Dana Sawyer of Maine College of Art (author of "Monastic Structure of Banarsi Dandi Sadhus" in Living Banaras: Hindu Religion in Cultural Context, ed. Hertel, Bradley R. and Cynthia Humes, Albany: State University of New York Press, 1993). The updated page can be found at - . I have also taken the opportunity to use the Indic Times font (Unicode UTF-8) developed by Chris Fynn (cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK), so viewers can read the material with a font using proper diacritical marks. There is also a link to a plain text version of the page, in case the character encoding is not rendered properly by your favorite web-browser. This is available at - . In this context, Christopher J. Fynn wrote, on Thu, 13 Jul 2000: >....... (Unfortuately Netscape still has a number of >problems displaying Unicode text for complex scripts). This can be a problem with Internet Explorer also, if your Internet Options are not set right. The following tips might help - For Netscape, go to Edit -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts, and choose "Use Document specified fonts, including Dynamic Fonts". If the font is still not rendered well, you can force the browser to behave, by specifying the complex font (Indic Times in this case) as the default variable width font. This is a short term fix, as you will have to change your preferences every time you encounter a page with a different kind of font. For IE, go to Tools -> Internet Options -> General -> Accessibility, and turn off "Ignore font styles specified on Web pages" under "Formatting". Also turn off the "Format documents using my style sheet" feature found under "User Style Sheet". With the font-face attribute being discouraged, in the future, more web designers will be specifying a complex font as part of style sheet specifications. Without the above two steps, IE will also not render the font properly. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 16 21:21:46 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 17:21:46 -0400 Subject: address In-Reply-To: <017701bfea3c$e4555c40$2472f586@indologie> Message-ID: <161227060031.23782.15639595011539759920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Professor Tambovtsev, nice to hear from te hoem town of my old friend Boris Oguibenine (Paris). He grew up there. So, when I noticed that Radio Novosibirsk is audible on the internet I listened once or twice.... Unfortunately the same pop songs as all over the world... Thank you for yor two emails. I have thought a little how I can help you. As regards your paper on the Gipsy volume, I think I can send it one to the Indo-Iranian Journal in Holland which is quite international. It needs some stylistic corrections (I have corrected the spelling already). I will send you a corrected copy with some suggestions when I get time this week As for the other item, >> could You help me to find some useful e-mail addresses of some US or Eurapean journals on Indo-Iranian linguistics? I do not have email addresses. But we can collect some regular mail addresses. >> I've written an article on the phonotypological distances between Sanskrit and other Indo-Iranian languages. << This kind of papar you could also publish in the Indo-Iranian Journal (IIJ). Could you send me a copy on paper or also by email (attached?) >> As You know the situation with linguistic university journals in this country is bad due to the lack of funds. My students, post-graduates and I, we all are looking forward to receiving Your generous aid in this respect. Could You send us sample copies of the journals on Indo-Iranian linguistics? I have a few spare copies of IIJ and of Kratylos and will send them to you this week. To give you an idea. Then, you could write to the chief editor of IIJ (Bodewitz) and ask him whether he would not ask the publisher for an exchange if you have a journal of your department or University that could be exchanged. NB: IIJ has a web site now. http://www.wkap.nl/journalhome.htm/0019-7246 Also, we have the LONG RANGER (Nostratic etc.) comparison journal, Mother Tongue; please see: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/aslip.html With warm regards, Yours M. WItzel Yours Most Hopefully and Respectfully Prof.Yuri Tambovtsev, Dept of English and Linguistics of NPU, P.O.Box 104, Novosibirsk-123, 630123, Russia. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From poopathi at AA.NET Mon Jul 17 00:24:23 2000 From: poopathi at AA.NET (Poopathi Manickam) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 17:24:23 -0700 Subject: Just wondering... Message-ID: <161227060038.23782.3686353985661517689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did anybody notice that the new dotcom billionaire netrepreneurs (Da Old boys of IIT) never give money to endow an linguistic Department, or a History Department? Departments that may view them for what they really are. They always give to the sciences (IIT's). So humanities studies remain dependent only on public money for financing. The result is that much great scholarship that could have been done isn't and teaching quality suffers as humanities departments (Thamizh, Dravidian History and so forth) rely on very limited fund.... Off topic slightly but just a thought. :-) Regards, Poopathi S. Manickam (Seattle, WA) _________________________________________________ Mein Kampf fails to anticipate British opposition to Germany's eastern expansion because Hitler thought the policy was complementary to British colonial policy: 'no sacrifice would have been too great to win England's willingness. We should have renounced colonies and sea-power, and spared English industry our competition.'(p129) Even where conflict with Britain seems inevitable, Hitler clings to the solidarity of the Western powers against the 'fantastic new invention', 'the league of oppressed nations' (p601). He insists 'that I, as a man of Germanic blood, would, in spite of everything, rather see India under English rule than any other' (p601). ____________________________________ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 17 00:28:22 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 17:28:22 -0700 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060040.23782.4656720355428160605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Naga Ganesan wrote: >It is often claimed in this list that Kunjunni Raja supports >a date of 800 CE for Adi Sankara. But, this 800 date is >arrived at by taking vAcaspati's as 841. If Slaje and Srinivasan >are right about the 976 CE date for vAcaspati, then Adi Sankara >date must also correspondingly brought forward by atleast >a century. Is it not? Faulty logic. We only know the relative order of dates. There is no strong information about how many years actually separated Sankara and Vacaspatimisra. One also has to consider the date of Bhaskara, and those of Buddhist authors who refer to Bhaskara. We have gone over this issue ad nauseum. E.g. see my earlier post - . If you have good reasons to refute this, please specify details. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Sun Jul 16 15:43:40 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 17:43:40 +0200 Subject: Quarantine Proposal Message-ID: <161227060019.23782.10897629779334616188.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ladies and Gentlemen, Occassionally the academic conversation on this list goes awry and members begin to hurl verbal abuses on each other. I find that such postings of mutual defamation and selfdefense are a waste of time. If each member of the list has to spend just thirty seconds on such a message before discarding it, it adds up collectively to almost six hours of lost time for the 700 or so academic members of this list! With so many of such messages, one can only be astounded about how much precious time is thus wasted. Firstly, I find that it is completely unnecessary to react to any defamation on this list. We are all educated readers and are perfectly capable of judging the arguments of a person ourselves. A nasty tone only discredits the person who utters such words. Time and again, our moderator urges us to rein in and keep the lid on (and THANKS for that, Dominik), but nevertheless these problems occur over and over. As of now, the moderator can only issue warnings and eventually cancel a person's membership, which is a rather harsh action to take. It is thus difficult (and again time consuming) to do something about the problem. I will therefore suggest a new tool to be used in these cases by our moderator. Anyone using too harsh or degrading expressions about other members of the list should be given a two-week quarantine to cool off. During this period, the person could still receive postings on the list but must be barred from sending any postings to list him- or herself (possibly technically possible with a "block sender" function, which e.g. exists in many e-mail programs to avoid spamming). If more than one person engages in such degradation (as someone wisely pointed out: "it takes two hands to clap"), let's give them all some time to cool off. I think such an action can be issued more freely (and with less severe consequence) than going to the extreme of cancelling membership (which should, however, still be reserved for repeated and extreme cases). I realize that this proposal may mean more work for the moderator, but I sincerely hope that he will consider my proposal. If someone has a better idea of how to solve such conflicts on our list, let us hear your (constructive) proposals. With best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Sun Jul 16 18:46:57 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 18:46:57 +0000 Subject: INDOLOGY management Message-ID: <161227060026.23782.8063781978282226209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The list manager deserves to be highly commended for his stable efforts to keep this list within the disciplinary scope of indology, and within the limits of common decency. Keep up the good work, Dominik! From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 16 23:49:33 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 18:49:33 -0500 Subject: tanks etc. Message-ID: <161227060033.23782.13175861255812134511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Witzel: I am sure that you have seen the references given on the IndianCivilization list for your writings on tanks. Note: For those who are interested to see excerpts from Dr.Witzels writings on chariot tanks, please look up posting #446 and #452 on IndianCivilization group at www.egroups.com Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Sun Jul 16 17:44:47 2000 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 00 19:44:47 +0200 Subject: was 22k [Off Topic] Message-ID: <161227060028.23782.2003352030685468156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel said: >It must have been generated automatically and explains the >size double of that intended. Thanks Michael! Just waited for that! ;-) My 2 Rs, I HATE HTML in emails, firstly because quite often it shows up all in Mark Up Glory, secondly because it does increase enormously the size of the mssg. On a metered connection we pay for the unsollicited and redundant rubbish that furthermore helps clogging the net. I am in Index mode, this may aggravate the problem, but nevertheless. Unfortunately it is often much more straightforward to send out messages in Plain Text Plus All The Superfluous Stuff than it is to send Plain Text Only. As soon as you style a single word the disaster is effectuated. In Outlook Express the Rubbish Mode is ON by DEFAULT! Many many people are not aware of the fact. Animated GIFs in email are already in place. Today we are just waiting for someone to decide that by Tomorrow we are in dire need of Video in email. >up. Mea culpa ...... you get 22 k? < Yes sir, all kinds of headers telling me about parts, multiple parts, formats, boundaries, the message Plain Text content, PLUS many more lines containing *once more* the *same* content embedded in HTML code. I've copied below an example of an actual, real life message (slightly altered for obvious reasons), produced by Today's MS Office. Character count in which Headers are disregarded: Actual message: 17 characters Clutter: 3550 characters X-XS4ALL-To: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2000 16:20:14 +0800 Reply-To: Sender: Discussion of Tripitaka From: Hsuan-Tsang To: TRIPITAKA-L at LISTSERV.BEKKOAME.NE.JP This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFD475.39AA7DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit UNSUB TRIPITAKA-L >------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFD475.39AA7DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"} {head} {meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"} {meta name=3DProgId content=3DWord.Document} {meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"} {meta name=3DOriginator content=3D"Microsoft Word 9"} {link rel=3DFile-List href=3D"cid:filelist.xml at 01BFD475.350BEF60"} {!--[if gte mso 9]}{xml} {o:OfficeDocumentSettings} {o:DoNotRelyOnCSS/} {/o:OfficeDocumentSettings} {/xml}{![endif]--}{!--[if gte mso 9]}{xml} {w:WordDocument} {w:View}Normal{/w:View} {w:Zoom}0{/w:Zoom} {w:DocumentKind}DocumentEmail{/w:DocumentKind} {w:EnvelopeVis/} = {w:DisplayHorizontalDrawingGridEvery}0{/w:DisplayHorizontalDrawingGridEve= ry} = {w:DisplayVerticalDrawingGridEvery}0{/w:DisplayVerticalDrawingGridEvery} {w:UseMarginsForDrawingGridOrigin/} {w:Compatibility} {w:FootnoteLayoutLikeWW8/} {w:ShapeLayoutLikeWW8/} {w:AlignTablesRowByRow/} {w:ForgetLastTabAlignment/} {w:DoNotUseHTMLParagraphAutoSpacing/} {w:LayoutRawTableWidth/} {w:LayoutTableRowsApart/} {/w:Compatibility} {/w:WordDocument} {/xml}{![endif]--} {style} {!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle15 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; color:black;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --} {/style} {/head} {body lang=3DEN-US style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'} {div class=3DSection1} {p class=3DMsoNormal}{font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier = New"}{span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'}UNSUB = TRIPITAKA-L {/span}{/font}{span class=3DEmailStyle15}{font color=3Dblack face=3DArial}{span = style=3D'font-family:Arial'}{o:p}{/o:p}{/span}{/font}{/span}{/p} {p class=3DMsoNormal}{span class=3DEmailStyle15}{font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial}{span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'}{![if = !supportEmptyParas]} {![endif]}{o:p}{/o:p}{/span}{/font}{/span}{/p} {p class=3DMsoNormal}{font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New = Roman"}{span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'}{![if = !supportEmptyParas]} {![endif]}{/span}{/font}{font color=3Dblack}{span = style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'}{o:p}{/o:p}{/span}{/font}{= /p} {/div} {/body} {/html} >------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFD475.39AA7DC0-- Have nice day, Jaap -- I rather *like* EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH SKIRTED MAN HOLDING JACKAL ALOFT BY THE THROAT. It gives such a vivid picture. ? John H. J. (07 Apr 2000) From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Jul 17 04:44:09 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 00:44:09 -0400 Subject: tanks etc./Internet problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060042.23782.67115243125206552.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am truly sorry to repeat myself once more, but again, Subrahmanya has failed to show and to quote where I have written what he alleges. And he again simply repeats (below) : now in translation, "writings on chariot tanks." Satyam vada! See my detailed mail of 2/13/2000 in the Indology archives: g) S. SUBAAHMANYA: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 >>that is why Indology has had Aryan noses, Aryan languages and now Witzel has 'managed' to find Aryan chariot panzers << You're welcome to to look at IndianCivilization; however, one has to become *a member* first, and when looking at the web site one has to accept a lot of cookies! (whose??). Otherwise the site does not work. ---------------------------- *** Speaking of technical items: I apologize for sending a private letter via the list. Not clear to me how it happened. Too much mail, scholarly for a change today: Not the 'guilty' return button this time. Following Jaap Pranger's explanations (thanks!!), I see 3-4 problems: * Inadvertent addition of junk (text formatting) as in my 22k case, done via Eudora, when using underlining/adding color, etc. My apologies! Did not realize that as these additional KB are not shown on Eudora; true size can be seen on older email systems such as Better Telnet. * Automatical addition of junk (as explained by J.Pranger) when using the obnoxious Outlook. One has to reset it to avoid that. In addition, Outlook results in empty messages in Eudora, as explained earlier. I get 2-3 messages from Indology per week that are empty (no kidding!!) and have to open Better Telnet in order to be able to read them. * Attachments, which are now banned and automatically rejected. How to avoid all of this? MW> ---------------------------------------------------------- Su?brahmanya: >Dr. Witzel: > >I am sure that you have seen the references given >on the IndianCivilization list for your writings on tanks. > >Note: For those who are interested to see excerpts from >Dr.Witzels writings on chariot tanks, please look up posting #446 and #452 >on IndianCivilization group at www.egroups.com > >Regards, >Subrahmanya ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 17 16:24:28 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 09:24:28 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060049.23782.10828325718489048183.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I'll be brief. The mImAMsaka and the vedAntin have to argue >for svataH prAmANya, because they have to hold that scripture >is self-valid (but for different reasons). Generally, most >arguments about a creator and scripture boil down to, >"scripture is valid because God wrote it; God exists because >scripture says so." By holding to svataH-prAmANya, this >circularity is avoided. >The naiyyAyika does not accept that scripture, or for that >matter, any other kind of knowledge, is self-valid. No >proposition is valid unless it can be proved to be true. The >naiyyAyikas have had to pay much attention to the nature and >structure of proof, like logicians elsewhere in the world. >Scripture derives its validity from being the composition of >a creator God. I do not think the concept of svatah praamaanya vaada and pratah praamaanya vaada of the Miimaamsakaa and the Naiyaayika are as simple as this. The main point of these doctrines is to check the validity of knowledge itself - that which you "know" - from the pramaanas. I accept that for the Miimaamsakaa since some knowledge is intrinsically valid, he would accept the shruti the same way. But again for the Miimaamsaka other kinds of knowledge are not intrinsically valid - like the testimony of wise men, since the validity of the testimony is inferred from the trustworthy character of the person. Basically the NaiyAyika stand is that at the time of cognition knowledge is neutral and it is only later that the question of the validity of knowledge arises. The validity of knowledge is dependent on external factors like some excellence in the causes of knowledge or the fruitful activity it gives rise to. But Miimaamsakaa refutes this on the grounds that mere freedom from defect and contradiction is enough to generate valid knowledge. And for them the concept of "neutral" knowledge is absurd. Validity of knowledge and belief in its validity arise simultaneously along with knowledge itself. So the stress is basically on validating knowledge itself and does not relate to proving things by logic. >To avoid the circularity mentioned above, any "worthy" nyAya author simply >*has* to prove the existence of such a creator through independent >arguments. He cannot say >that he accepts a creator just because scripture says so. He >has to validate his philosophical stance through what he would >consider to be valid proof. And this is irrespective of when >he may have lived, and irrespective of whether his opponents >were "great" or not. If he had not made these arguments, he >would not have been considered "worthy" or the "top" author >of his school. If what you say is true even earlier NaiyAyikas should have done the same thing. But we see neither Gautama nor VAtsyAyana or UdhyotakAra fighting for the cause. And also NyAya along with Vaishesika believes in adhrsta or the unseen power which moves the world. How can you provide logical arguments for such a concept? And we find that whenever they are unable to prove something by logic, they immediately take shelter in adhrsta. This hardly matches the description of somebody who has to prove everything by logic. >No, it is not. I don't expect anybody who hasn't made an >attempt to understand the logical method followed by Sankara >to get any sense of the nature of how nyAya (note, I don't >include vaiSeshika here) has influenced him. The influence of >nyAya on advaita is at least as heavy as on viSishTAdvaita. >?From ontology we move to logical method and is this where NyAya has influenced Advaita? This doesn't cut too much ice either for almost all schools both Astika and nAstika, have benefitted by NyAya's standards and formulations in logic. But again when comparing Advaita and NyAya, there's a vital point which should not be missed. For NyAya *knowledge* of the true nature of the sixteen categories is what will lead to liberation. Most of the other pre-bhakti schools too believed that knowledge in some form or the other is what'll fetch liberation. So logic and the means of knowledge is very important to them in their scheme for liberation. But the MAdhyamaka and Advaita differ in this vital regard. For they do not believe in the ultimate validity of knowledge itself. None of the pramAnas can grasp reality and are invalid at the paramArtha level. That's the basis for the two levels of reality. NAgArjuna's and Shankra's dialectic is aimed at destroying empirical knowledge itself. But this lower knowledge should not be confused with the higher knowledge - Atma jnAnam or knowledge of the Self - which is true knowledge. So unlike the NaiyAyikas Advaitins do not seek an end in logic itself and Shankara himself condemns those who are addicted to logic to an endless cycle of birth and death (quite like the Buddha in BrahmajAlasutta). Shankara says that he wouldn't be bothering with philosophy and dialectic if they weren't too many false views being prevalent. He wants us to give up this theoretical philosophizing and practice Atma VichAram which is what will lead to liberation. So logic is for the MAdhyamikas and the Advaitins, as Chandrakirti says, only of negative value - useful in destroying the validity of empirical knowledge, after which it should be given up. So even in this regard Advaita is diametrically opposed to the NyAya. PS : Regarding your questions on MAdhyamaka and Advaita, I'm posting my response under a different subject. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Mon Jul 17 10:27:26 2000 From: aklujkar at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 11:27:26 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY management Message-ID: <161227060046.23782.2834919378344767299.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to second the following thoughts: 15 Jul 2000, Bijoy Misra. >ps. Re: your previous mail, I refused to take the bait, with >all its words of learned length and thundering sound. If you >can give me at least one quotation from an advaita text that >says samsAra = nirvANa, I will think about discussing it with >you. If it were as simple as that we wouldn't be having an argument about it, would we? The reason why you'll not find such a statement in Advaita texts is the difference in the angle from which the problem is approached by both schools. NAgArjuna's concentration is entirely on the phenomenal world. But to limit the scope of his dialectic as either a tool to prove all theories as empty or to invalidate knowledge itself doesn't do it full justice. His destructive dialectic exposes the weakness of our understanding of what we claim to be reality. The world is only the world we know, but this knowing is ultimately deficient. So that world is not what we assume it to be - in reality there's neither production nor destruction, neither nihilism nor eternalism, neither unity nor plurality, neither coming in nor going out. With this the traditional way in which the world is viewed by philosophers - as desire being the cause of misery, spiritual progress and the eternal Self, liberation as escape from the cycle of birth and death, knowledge being the means to liberation are all invalidated. All these are just conceptions and the true path to liberation starts only when all views are relinquished. But the ontological implication of his dialectic - the tattva which is to be directly experienced and where all plurality is merged - other than saying that it is only samsAra when not viewed through the lens of causality and relativity, NAgArjuna doesn't go beyond that. That GaudapAda himself approves of AjAtivAda of the MAdhyamaka is itself enough to prove Advaita's view of samsAra is only the same as the MAdhyamikas. When there's neither production nor destruction, where's birth and death or bondage and liberation? But again as said before Advaita approaches the problem from a different angle. While NAgArjuna approaches reality from the phenomenal, Advaita comes the other way. On the strength of the shruti and spiritual experience, brahman is asserted as the truth - one without a second. So what of the world? The world is mithya (unreal) and mAyA (an illusion). The nature of this illusion? Shankara says it is anirvAchaniya - neither real, nor unreal, nor both, nor neither (the classic MAdhyamika chatushkoti). Beyond that Shankara doesn't waste much effort trying to prove the unreality of the world - he does his best to ignore it. So why isn't Shankara saying the samsara is nirvAna? Because only when you approach nirvAna from samsAra, would that question arise. For when approaching reality through the phenomenal, the phenomenal has some value and relation to the noumenal. But when approached from nirvAna, where is samsAra? The point of distinction is between the real and the unreal. From the unreal, both the unreal and the real have value. But from the real, only the real has value and not the unreal. The distinction is also due to the approach of a philosopher who tries to teach reality from the phenomenal and the jnaani who expounds reality based on personal experience. Let us take this argument further. If according to you in Advaita the samsara = nirvAna + avidhya, equation doesn't work, then : Logically mAyA can be interpreted in two ways : 1. The world is merely an illusion and it vanishes after jnAna. 2. The world doesn't vanish, but it is the duality that we perceive in the world that ceases (the MAdhyamika position). So it is ontology Vs epistemology. If the world is an illusion in the normal sense - i.e, it doesn't exist for the jnAni after liberation, this would make a subjective idealism of Advaita - i.e, then only the subject would be real. But again if for the jnAni the world is an illusion in the normal sense i.e, it doesn't exist for him, then to whom would he teach jnAna to? For since the world is an illusion there's nobody else apart from him. This would make the life of Shankara who travelled around teaching Advaita, meaningless. If it is said that for a jnAni though the world is an illusion, he can still perceive it even after liberation, that would saying that reality and unreality exists together. For when the jnAni himself has "become reality" - brahmavid brahmaiva bhavati - how can unreality exist along with him? Only as feasible, as light and darkness existing together. That jnAnis taught to others itself is the spanner in the works for those who propound the "illusion" theory. It is also the proof that the world doesn't "vanish into nothing" after jnAna - for then they wouldn't have been able to teach it to others. The trick lies in finding common ground between reality and unreality. An ontological solution is impossible. So the samsAra = nirvAna + avidhya - the epistemological solution, is the only answer. Even modern sages like Ramana Maharishi have taught that it is not the world itself which is the illusion, but only the duality that we perceive in the world, that is the illusion. >If you cannot, you have misunderstood both Sankara and >Nagarjuna, so there is little point in the exercise. ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT Mon Jul 17 11:16:14 2000 From: pelisser at CISI.UNITO.IT (Alberto Pelissero) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 12:16:14 +0100 Subject: INDOLOGY management In-Reply-To: <39720321.4680@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <161227060044.23782.7175030299636002724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I fully agree with this message. Alberto Pelissero tel. +39-11-670.3757 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) fax +39-11-670.3604 (Dept. of Oriental Studies, Turin Univ.) On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Sven Ekelin wrote: > The list manager deserves to be highly commended for his stable > efforts to keep this list within the disciplinary scope of indology, > and within the limits of common decency. > > Keep up the good work, Dominik! > From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 17 22:02:16 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 15:02:16 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060063.23782.14920464655765817965.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >But again for the Miimaamsaka other kinds of knowledge are >not intrinsically valid - like the testimony of wise men, svataH pramANa has a flip side to it - parataH apramANa. As I said, I was being brief, so I had to bring it down to the rudimentary details. >So the stress is basically on validating knowledge itself and >does not relate to proving things by logic. How do you validate knowledge itself, without getting into the nature of proof? >If what you say is true even earlier NaiyAyikas should have >done the same thing. But we see neither Gautama nor VAtsyAyana >or UdhyotakAra fighting for the cause. And also NyAya along I can only say, read the nyAya sUtras, bhAshya and vArttika. Specifically, sUtras 2. 1. 58-69, 2. 2. 13-21, and the comments by vAtsyAyana and uddyotakara (note the spelling) thereon. >with Vaishesika believes in adhrsta or the unseen power which >moves the world. How can you provide logical arguments for such Aiyo, Rama! Is it too much to expect that one who wishes to discuss these things should first read about them? The nyAya and vaiSeshika views of ad.r.s.ta are quite different. And within nyAya itself, you find changes in its meaning over time. >From ontology we move to logical method and is this where >NyAya has influenced Advaita? This doesn't cut too much ice Has anybody said that advaita ontology is the same as nyAya ontology? Or should we insist that unless two schools of thought share a similar ontology, there is no influence of one on the other? Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 17 22:31:09 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 15:31:09 -0700 Subject: Advaita and MAdhyamaka Message-ID: <161227060060.23782.12242507631738506328.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >>says samsAra = nirvANa, I will think about discussing it with >>you. > >If it were as simple as that we wouldn't be having an argument >about it, would we? The reason why you'll not find such a >statement in Advaita texts is the difference in the angle >from which the problem is approached by both schools. This is nirarthaka, and the rest of your mail is punarukti. If you know your nyAya, you will know that these are two ways of losing an argument. ...... >So why isn't Shankara saying the samsara is nirvAna? Because he keeps saying that samsAra is not nirvANa. You had better make an attempt to read Sankara properly. Let me give you a specific case - commentary on bhagavad gIta, 13. 2. It goes without saying that you need to read nAgArjuna properly too. >Let us take this argument further. If according to you in Advaita >the samsara = nirvAna + avidhya, equation doesn't work, then : This is not according to me, so the question does not arise. A small tip - for Advaita, samsAra = avidyA, plain and simple. For the rest, I would second Ulrich Kragh's suggestion. There is madhyamaka, there is advaita, there is your understanding of the two and there is my understanding of the two. I am prepared to substantiate my understanding with primary quotations from nAgArjuna, gauDapAda and Sankara, and have done that elsewhere already. I haven't found you backing up your understanding with primary textual evidence. Till such time as you do find anything, I won't discuss this any further. I am tired of discussing with you whether it is right or wrong to read any sort of absolutist implications into nAgArjuna's arguments. In any case, you haven't given me the advaita quote I asked for, although you have provided a big essay why you cannot find such a quote. So let us close this right here. Nothing further from me. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From perichandra at YAHOO.COM Tue Jul 18 02:46:44 2000 From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 19:46:44 -0700 Subject: News: "Historians want ASI to be made autonomous" Message-ID: <161227060058.23782.14106061392017666893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/stories/0118000d.htm Excerpts: "Historians want ASI to be made autonomous By Our Staff Reporter NEW DELHI, JULY 17. Making a plea against ``saffronisation of the Archeological Survey of India'', several historians today demanded that ASI be made an autonomous organisation that would report directly to Parliament. Also, they suggested that preservation of monuments be taken out of the purview of ASI and put under a separate national trust. ... Another instance of ``saffronisation of history'' provided by Prof. Habib pertained to the effort to use new nomenclature. ``The `Puratattva' - a journal funded by ASI - is intent on proving that the Harappan or Indus culture was really based on the Sarasvati and was Aryan and not Dravidian in its ethnic basis. Also, the new nomenclature - ``Sindhu Sarasvati'' culture - is on its way to being given official recognition to replace the more neutral ``Harappan'' or ``Indus' culture''. ..." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Tue Jul 18 04:49:50 2000 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 21:49:50 -0700 Subject: INDOLOGY management In-Reply-To: <39720321.4680@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <161227060056.23782.9308909704663409049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to add my voice to Sven Ekelin's and others' to support Dominik's monitoring of the list. Mandakranta Bose Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Sven Ekelin wrote: > The list manager deserves to be highly commended for his stable > efforts to keep this list within the disciplinary scope of indology, > and within the limits of common decency. > > Keep up the good work, Dominik! > From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Mon Jul 17 21:28:03 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 00 23:28:03 +0200 Subject: Sv: Advaita and MAdhyamaka Message-ID: <161227060054.23782.2912904803268010522.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran wrote an extensive mail on some points of similarity and dissimilarity between the Madhyamaka and Advaita traditions regarding the notions of saMsAra and nirvANa. As such this is an interesting discussion, but your approach, which might be called "nAgArjuna and zaGkara in a nutshell" hardly does justice to these thinkers. If you seriously want to discuss this, I suggest that you base your theses and arguments on concrete quotations from their texts. Otherwise, we would only be discussing the way in which you read these thinkers (which is probably never the same for two different readers). Sincerely, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 18 17:11:09 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 10:11:09 -0700 Subject: Advaita and MAdhyamaka Message-ID: <161227060065.23782.5765077352407707371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm still not sure why I even ventured into this enterprise. Wasn't my experience in the Advaita list enough to show me that with you, there's little place for reason in a discussion. Theaterics, distortion, evasion, distraction - everything goes in an argument - except reason. >I am prepared to substantiate my understanding with primary >quotations from nAgArjuna, gauDapAda and Sankara, and have >done that elsewhere already. AFAIK, when we'd that month long debate on the Advaita list, you never produced any such evidence. While you monotonously harped about listening to "tradition which says both systems are different", I took pains to quote from all the related texts and explain why both systems are but approaching the same goal from different angles. This you evaded by saying you didn't have the texts for reference at the moment. After which you subsided into silence and let ignorance and polemical bitterness of others overwhelm my argument. >I haven't found you backing up your understanding with primary textual > >evidence. The evidence is there for all to see in the archives of the Advaita list. I've quoted from all the related texts - the MAdhyamaka ShAstram, the PrAjnApAramitA texts, GaudapAdiya KArikA, Shankara's bhAshyams etc If you want to only look at my argument comparing the Advaita and the MAdhyamaka without any of the polemical bitterness, take a look at the other list - the Advaitin list and search for the string, "Understanding MAdhyamaka". My argument is in six posts and the last part of the article is called "Advaita - Buddhism in disguise?". This will anyway be displayed if you search for "Understanding MAdhyamaka". I don't claim that my arguments are foolproof and final. It is just a sincere effort to understand the systems. If any errors are pointed out I would be more than willing to accept and learn. >Till such time as you do find anything, I won't discuss this any >further. I needed to hear this from you. One has to pay for his own stupidity. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 18 17:23:12 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 10:23:12 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060067.23782.10793181474433421604.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You first asserted that Advaita was HEAVILY influenced by NyAya. When I questioned that you said that the Advaita view of "elements" is the same as NyAya and also pointed out the similarity of VAtsyAyana's view of liberation with Advaita. When I questioned the "heaviness" of this, you immediately switched to logical method. When I point out the invalidity of this argument, you say this : >Has anybody said that advaita ontology is the same as nyAya >ontology? Or should we insist that unless two schools of >thought share a similar ontology, there is no influence of >one on the other? >Aiyo, Rama! Is it too much to expect that one who wishes to >discuss these things should first read about them? Yes, the feeling is mutual. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR Tue Jul 18 20:14:09 2000 From: winnie.fellows at UNIKEY.COM.BR (winnie Fellows) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 17:14:09 -0300 Subject: unsubscribing/subscribing Message-ID: <161227060071.23782.17736099869190949119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To: I've been trying without success to unsubscribe from the this list Jesualdo Correia at the email winnie.fellows at unikey.com.br and to subscribe Jesualdo Correia at jesualdocorreia at hotmail.com Have tried different ways from both emails. What's wrong? From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 18 18:02:29 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 18:02:29 +0000 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060069.23782.5658059460524742721.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> vsundaresan at hotmail.com wrote: > We only know the relative order of dates. There >is no strong information about how many years actually separated >Sankara and Vacaspatimisra. One also has to consider the date of >Bhaskara, and those of Buddhist authors who refer to Bhaskara. Now, you agree that Sankara possibly lived as late as 850 CE. Kunjunni Raja's analysis when updated with Vacaspati (late 10th century) makes it rather more like 900 CE. Pl. note that while Kunjunni subtracts only around 40 years from vAcaspati to get to Sankara, a liberal 75 yrs. were taken out to reach this 900 CE. I don't know how Bhaskara comes into this unless he or his successors lived between 850-900 CE. Regards, N. Ganesan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vraja at WEST.NET Wed Jul 19 01:11:59 2000 From: vraja at WEST.NET (Pravrajika Vrajaprana) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 18:11:59 -0700 Subject: YES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060082.23782.1361230585004552831.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. > >Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming >indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in >the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would >prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of >the subject line. > >Let's vote on this issue. > >If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line >"prefix - yes". > >If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject >line "prefix - no". > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 >From: Thomas Anzenhofer >To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY > >Dear Mr. Wujastyk, > >Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: > >Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages >that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists myself, >and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the >beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has >f. e. "[Indologie] ": > >(Original message:) > >Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > >(Message received from "Indologie":) > >Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > >That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in >times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain >abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... > >Greetings (^: > >Thomas Anzenhofer From jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 19 03:10:59 2000 From: jesualdocorreia at HOTMAIL.COM (Jesualdo Correia) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 20:10:59 -0700 Subject: "prefix - yes" Message-ID: <161227060088.23782.12204706130685120674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM Wed Jul 19 01:12:43 2000 From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 21:12:43 -0400 Subject: prefix - no Message-ID: <161227060075.23782.10281747640301065583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> prefix - no From dbgray62 at HOME.COM Wed Jul 19 02:18:19 2000 From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 22:18:19 -0400 Subject: no Message-ID: <161227060086.23782.2798175265441672291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages > should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. > > Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming > indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in > the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would > prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of > the subject line. > > Let's vote on this issue. > > If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line > "prefix - yes". > > If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject > line "prefix - no". > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 > From: Thomas Anzenhofer > To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY > > Dear Mr. Wujastyk, > > Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: > > Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages > that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists myself, > and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the > beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has > f. e. "[Indologie] ": > > (Original message:) > > Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > > (Message received from "Indologie":) > > Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > > That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in > times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain > abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... > > Greetings (^: > > Thomas Anzenhofer From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Wed Jul 19 03:59:28 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 00 23:59:28 -0400 Subject: prefix - no Message-ID: <161227060093.23782.15812156681785915939.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is what I feel. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 19 01:04:09 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 02:04:09 +0100 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) Message-ID: <161227060073.23782.18147204048428511158.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of the subject line. Let's vote on this issue. If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line "prefix - yes". If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line "prefix - no". -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 From: Thomas Anzenhofer To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY Dear Mr. Wujastyk, Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists myself, and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has f. e. "[Indologie] ": (Original message:) Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen (Message received from "Indologie":) Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... Greetings (^: Thomas Anzenhofer From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 19 01:14:39 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 02:14:39 +0100 Subject: Quarantine Proposal In-Reply-To: <000e01bfef3c$9dea08a0$5ccbe182@utkragh> Message-ID: <161227060077.23782.17446109898985890847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > I will therefore suggest a new tool to be used in these cases by our > moderator. Anyone using too harsh or degrading expressions about other > members of the list should be given a two-week quarantine to cool off. It's a good idea, but involves me in more work, and keeping track of people and dates. I'll consult the listserv sofware gurus and if it can be done quasi automatically, I'll adopt it. Thank you for the suggestion, in any case. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jul 19 01:17:56 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 02:17:56 +0100 Subject: Prefix -- No ! Message-ID: <161227060129.23782.14561039135221182017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No thanks, no prefix necessary for me. Stephen Hodge From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Jul 19 01:28:44 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 02:28:44 +0100 Subject: Florida Buddhism job Message-ID: <161227060084.23782.11500776570727741624.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, Department of Religion invites applications for a tenure-track position in the area of Buddhist Studies at the rank of Assistant Professor beginning August 2001 pending authorization. Salary commensurate with experience. The appointee's specialization may be in any geographical area or historical period. Qualifications include the PhD in hand, evidence of success/promise in teaching college-level courses, and the ability to contribute to the intellectual life and growth of the Department. Initial interviews will be conducted with a limited number of candidates at the AAR Annual Meeting in November. Send letter of application, CV, three letters of recommendation, brief statement of research and teaching interests, and examples of scholarly work by November 1, 2000 to David G. Hackett, Department of Religion, 125 Dauer Hall, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611. The University of Florida is an EEO/AA/ADA employer. From arh48 at UNI-KOELN.DE Wed Jul 19 01:11:15 2000 From: arh48 at UNI-KOELN.DE (Thomas Anzenhofer) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 03:11:15 +0200 Subject: prefix - yes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060079.23782.12254102353774781162.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >(vote on subject-prefix; I hope this message won't appear on the list...) From francisco.caravana at CLIX.PT Wed Jul 19 03:17:41 2000 From: francisco.caravana at CLIX.PT (Francisco Caravana) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 04:17:41 +0100 Subject: perfix - yes Message-ID: <161227060091.23782.15236988358765332846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> perfix-yes From rhayes at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Wed Jul 19 09:58:43 2000 From: rhayes at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Richard Hayes) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 05:58:43 -0400 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060112.23782.8139609188400532393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If an individual subscriber wishes to have [INDOLOGY] in the subject line, this can easily be done by sending the command SET INDOLOGY SUBJECTHDR to listserv at listserv.liv.ac.uk. I have my subscription set in that way, but I would urge against using that as a default subject header for everything. -- Richard P. Hayes Faculty of Religious Studies McGill University rhayes at po-box.mcgill.ca From george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE Wed Jul 19 05:21:07 2000 From: george.baumann at UB.UNI-TUEBINGEN.DE (George Baumann) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 07:21:07 +0200 Subject: vote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060097.23782.15612595457110371643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prefix: no > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:11:59 -0700 > Reply-to: Indology > From: Pravrajika Vrajaprana > Subject: YES > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages > >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. > > > >Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming > >indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in > >the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would > >prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of > >the subject line. > > > >Let's vote on this issue. > > > >If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line > >"prefix - yes". > > > >If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject > >line "prefix - no". > > > >-- > >Dominik Wujastyk > >Founder, INDOLOGY list > > > > > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 > >From: Thomas Anzenhofer > >To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > >Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY > > > >Dear Mr. Wujastyk, > > > >Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: > > > >Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages > >that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists myself, > >and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the > >beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has > >f. e. "[Indologie] ": > > > >(Original message:) > > > >Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > > > >(Message received from "Indologie":) > > > >Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > > > >That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in > >times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain > >abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... > > > >Greetings (^: > > > >Thomas Anzenhofer > ___________________________________________________________ Dr. G. Baumann Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: +7071-2972587 Fax: +7071-293123 ___________________________________________________________ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 19 15:06:50 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 08:06:50 -0700 Subject: [OT] taqdiir kaa sikandar Message-ID: <161227060140.23782.8766652799480998091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Edited volumes of speeches by the late Chandrashekarendrasaraswathi Swamigal of the Kanchi Sankara Matham will contain this info. Long ago, tamil magazines like Kalaimagal carried his Alexander as Skanda > Sikandar > (add a prefix, al) Alexander (Greek). Don't know the English translations of Kanchi Sankaracharya's speeches has this (eg., the Bhaatiya Vidya Bhavan volume). --- Jaap Pranger wrote: > (an Alexander in fortune > very lucky person) > > How common is "taqdiir kaa sikandar" as an expression > in Urdu? in Hindi? > > Any other Indian languages have equivalents (with sikandar)? > > Has Alexander's name been remembered in India/Pakistan ever > since his trip to Pakistan? > > Do other expressions with 'sikandar' exist in > Urdu and Hindi? > > > Jaap > -- > "Geen baadaltje aan de lucht." > ? Annu Didi (16-10-1999) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Wed Jul 19 08:44:48 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 08:44:48 +0000 Subject: prefix - no In-Reply-To: <200007190521.HAA19802@mx02.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: <161227060099.23782.3057069621633983530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> prefix - no -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Wed Jul 19 16:01:52 2000 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 09:01:52 -0700 Subject: prefix In-Reply-To: <39756316.A1E85E@4mis.com> Message-ID: <161227060142.23782.18302979243045338441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prefix - NO Mandakranta Bose Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca From hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Wed Jul 19 14:16:17 2000 From: hhhock at UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Hans Henrich Hock) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 09:16:17 -0500 Subject: Prefix--no In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060133.23782.5020823949542325050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -- Hans Henrich Hock, Director Program in South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 220 International Studies Building, MC-489 910 S. Fifth Street Champaign IL 61820 217-265-5016, 217-244-7331 fax 217-333-6270 e-mail hhhock at staff.uiuc.edu ***Visit our website at: http://www.uiuc.edu/providers/psames/ From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Jul 19 17:00:00 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:00:00 -0700 Subject: [[OT] taqdiir kaa sikandar] Message-ID: <161227060151.23782.1119635239474577893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jaap Pranger wrote: >>>(an Alexander in fortune > very lucky person) Rather, an Alexander by [sheer ] luck > very lucky person. >>>How common is "taqdiir kaa sikandar" as an expression in Urdu? in Hindi? The expressions are "taqdeer kaa baadshaah" or "muqaddar kaa sikandar"."taqdiir kaa sikandar" seems to be a cros-phrase. >>>Any other Indian languages have equivalents (with sikandar)? NO, as far as I know. There are expressions with luck/fortune and King Vikrama/King Bhoja in Bengali/Hindi/Oriya. >>>Has Alexander's name been remembered in India/Pakistan ever since his trip to Pakistan? The earliest reference to Sikandar in Hindi Literature is in the 16th century Hindi poem "PadumAvat" by JAyasI [Bk. 1, verse-group 13, where JAyasI compares his patron Sher Shah to "iskandar"]. Sikandar or Al-sikandar seems to be a theme in the Perso-Arabic source of South Asian cultural history, rather than in the Sanskritic [Indo-Aryan] source. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 19 17:03:52 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:03:52 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060146.23782.14584077350955712707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I still maintain that. I have pointed out the areas in which >this influence is particularly seen. Yes, but mere similarity of the theory of bhutas (which anyway is invalid in the ultimate sense in Advaita) and VAtsyAyana's view of bliss in liberation (which anyway is self-contradictory given NyAya's stand that the self is in essence, unconscious), hardly counts for "heavy" influence. >Philosophy is not limited to ontology. I never said that. But NyAya has little in common with the main tenets of Advaita (in its paramArtha sense) in all its dimensions - ontology, epistemology, psychology, metaphysics etc >You have to read Sankara to see how much attention >he pays to the standard 5-member nyAya structure of argument. Which again, is invalid in the ultimate level in Advaita. I've taken great pains to explain why, but still you keep repeating the same argument. >I don't have the time to write a bigger essay comparing advaita >and nyAya, but I have given you the necessary pointers. If you >are not prepared to specifically address the above points, or >other specific issues, to question my statement about the "heavy" influence >of nyAya on advaita, this discussion is at an end. I've already pointed out the invalidity or superficial importance of such arguments. But ofcourse, you'll posture as if nothing ever happened and keep repeating the same arguments. >And I don't have the inclination to take up the madhyamaka thread. >If you bring up specific points, one can discuss them. I am not >alone in requesting that you make primary references. For Ulrich, I've already pointed out the references present in my articles in the archives of the Advaita or Advaitin list. Since you were present in the original discussions, you do not need them. But ofcourse, in your classic way, you'll ignore all the arguments and keep repeating your own arguments. Take for instance your assertion that samsAra = avidhya, where you've made no distinction between ontology and epistemology. I've taken care to explain why an ontological interpretation would be absurd and only the epistemological solution is the logical answer. But still you simply assert that samsAra = avidhya. Either you didn't understand the argument or you're deliberately playing dumb! Initially I used to think the latter, but of late I'm beginning to suspect the former. I simply don't have time for all this vithandA vAdham. And to think that I wasted over two months trying to teach people, who do not even understand the difference between ontology and epistemology, the similarity between Advaita and MAdhyamaka! And for this pointless discussion I ignored a much more worthy cause. Let Vinaayakaa give me more wisdom in the future. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jul 19 04:52:22 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:22:22 +0530 Subject: Quarantine Proposal Message-ID: <161227060095.23782.8328584937238192244.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Do not over-regulate.I had read somewhere that the first step towards civilization was taken when the man decided not to hurl a stone but abuse instead.. Why should words hurt? Rajesh Kochhar *************************************************************************** Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Quarantine Proposal >On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Ulrich T. Kragh wrote: > >> I will therefore suggest a new tool to be used in these cases by our >> moderator. Anyone using too harsh or degrading expressions about other >> members of the list should be given a two-week quarantine to cool off. > >It's a good idea, but involves me in more work, and keeping track of >people and dates. I'll consult the listserv sofware gurus and if it can >be done quasi automatically, I'll adopt it. Thank you for the suggestion, >in any case. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list. From janet at WALDZELL.DEMON.CO.UK Wed Jul 19 09:36:06 2000 From: janet at WALDZELL.DEMON.CO.UK (Janet Freeman) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:36:06 +0100 Subject: Prefix - no In-Reply-To: <39756316.A1E85E@4mis.com> Message-ID: <161227060107.23782.11665807918488303894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prefix - no From GthomGt at CS.COM Wed Jul 19 14:42:31 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:42:31 -0400 Subject: Prefix--no Message-ID: <161227060136.23782.2015380924987501563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Seems to be no need for one. George Thompson From poopathi at AA.NET Wed Jul 19 17:42:38 2000 From: poopathi at AA.NET (Poopathi Manickam) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:42:38 -0700 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) Message-ID: <161227060153.23782.6675188770112402840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> prefix - yes From Menon at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Jul 19 08:52:05 2000 From: Menon at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Menon) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:52:05 +0200 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) Message-ID: <161227060105.23782.12198573606193963342.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 2:51 AM Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. > >Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming >indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in >the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would >prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of >the subject line. > >Let's vote on this issue. > >If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line >"prefix - yes". > >If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject >line "prefix - no". > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY Reply: "prefix - no" From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Jul 19 14:56:10 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 10:56:10 -0400 Subject: taqdiir kaa sikandar Message-ID: <161227060138.23782.16559118974283624039.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (an Alexander in fortune > very lucky person) How common is "taqdiir kaa sikandar" as an expression in Urdu? in Hindi? Any other Indian languages have equivalents (with sikandar)? Has Alexander's name been remembered in India/Pakistan ever since his trip to Pakistan? RB> Bucephalus is supposed to have been buried in pakistan. Is there any site? Do other expressions with 'sikandar' exist in Urdu and Hindi? RB> muqaddar kA sikandar: a popular hindi film. the word sikandar comes from the arabic persian/world to india and is urdu ranther hindi. There is no pre islamic memory of alexander in india/pakistan as far as I have heard. Greek kings/satraps like antiochus and demetrius and selucus(not sure?) have been mentioned but not alexander. In fact I am not even sure if there any indian records which mention ambhi and paruravas (porus). A popular TV series chanakya showed chanakya interacting with porus wonder what the basis for such stories are. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 19 11:13:50 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 11:13:50 +0000 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060119.23782.3943201184152215589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >You first asserted that Advaita was HEAVILY influenced by NyAya. I still maintain that. I have pointed out the areas in which this influence is particularly seen. Philosophy is not limited to ontology. You have to read Sankara to see how much attention he pays to the standard 5-member nyAya structure of argument. >When I >questioned that you said that the Advaita view of "elements" is the same as >NyAya Similar, not same. At least similar enough to be significantly different from the sAMkhyan view of the five tanmAtras. And by "elements", I clarified that I meant the five bhUtas, AkASa onwards. Here are the references; you can check them yourself - Sankara's bhAshyas on TU 2. 1 and CU 6. 2. 1 to 6. 4. 4, and upadeSasAhasrI (prose chapter) 1. 19-20; nyAyasUtras 1. 1. 12-14 and 3. 1. 62-6, along with later discussions taking off from these. Important caveat - factor in the nyAya view of AkASa and Sabda - sUtras 2. 2. 13ff. >and also pointed out the similarity of VAtsyAyana's view of liberation The comparison was limited to bliss with respect to liberation. See nyAyabhAshya 1. 1. 22, especially vAtsyAyana's comments on experiences of bliss with respect to liberated and unliberated selves, and compare with Sankara's numerous works. Sankara's comments have attracted much discussion, while vAtsyAyana's stand on bliss has been called self-contradictory. If you read closely, both make remarkably similar arguments in this regard. I don't have the time to write a bigger essay comparing advaita and nyAya, but I have given you the necessary pointers. If you are not prepared to specifically address the above points, or other specific issues, to question my statement about the "heavy" influence of nyAya on advaita, this discussion is at an end. And I don't have the inclination to take up the madhyamaka thread. If you bring up specific points, one can discuss them. I am not alone in requesting that you make primary references. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 19 11:20:51 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 11:20:51 +0000 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060121.23782.13674245452486970757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >that while Kunjunni subtracts only around 40 years from >vAcaspati to get to Sankara, a liberal 75 yrs. were taken out >to reach this 900 CE. I don't know how Bhaskara comes >into this unless he or his successors lived between 850-900 CE. That is precisely the case. Error margins around the most probable dates are not infinitely plastic, to be molded any which way one likes. Bhaskara's date is not a new piece of evidence that I introduce to this discussion, just to upset your stand. As early as 1933, Hiriyanna showed that Bhaskara was pre- Vacaspati and post-Sankara. In 1954, Ingalls pointed out that Bhaskara may also have been post-Suresvara and post-Padmapada. Bhaskara's earliest date would thus make him contemporaneous with Sankara's direct disciples, and the latest date would be contemporaneous with Vacaspati. The dates of these people are not so many different unrelated problems. It is really one single problem, dealing with the same evidence and the same issues. So if you wish to recalculate Sankara's date, it would be better to replace a fragmentary approach, based on a single paper, with a more global survey of the relevant literature. That you have given a margin of 75 years as compared to 40 years does not confer any great merit to the calculation. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Wed Jul 19 10:23:21 2000 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 12:23:21 +0200 Subject: [OT] taqdiir kaa sikandar Message-ID: <161227060127.23782.7717911929709146439.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (an Alexander in fortune > very lucky person) How common is "taqdiir kaa sikandar" as an expression in Urdu? in Hindi? Any other Indian languages have equivalents (with sikandar)? Has Alexander's name been remembered in India/Pakistan ever since his trip to Pakistan? Do other expressions with 'sikandar' exist in Urdu and Hindi? Jaap -- "Geen baadaltje aan de lucht." ? Annu Didi (16-10-1999) From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Jul 19 19:30:58 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 12:30:58 -0700 Subject: [Similes & Metaphors] Message-ID: <161227060161.23782.16467252087003040538.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote: Many Indian philosophical texts have a liking for similes and metaphors to illustrate the point in hand -- certainly Buddhist texts I read have a great number of these. Some are well-known stock similes but others are more unusual. I was wondering if anybody has researched or compiled a list of such similes ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge The only book of its kind, as far as I know, is the "LaukikanyAyAJjaliH: A Handful of Popular maxims current in Saskrit Literature", in three parts, by G.A. Jacob. The three-volume[four parts]Bengali language "BhAratIya darzana koSa" by Srimohan Bhattacharya and Dinesh Chandra Bhattacharya deals with most of the similes and metaphors [the nyAyas]in the relevant sections. Best wishes. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE Wed Jul 19 12:54:20 2000 From: ekelin at BAHNHOF.SE (Sven Ekelin) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 12:54:20 +0000 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY Message-ID: <161227060114.23782.5431764045403468916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I wote *no*. Please note the following technicality: Our friend *LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK* apparently does not accept a message which is totally identical with a message previously posted by another member. My mail consisting of the words *Prefix - no* was sent back with the comment >Your message is being returned to you unprocessed because it >appears to have already been distributed to the INDOLOGY >list. That is, a message with identical text (but possibly >with different mail headers) has been posted to the list >recently, either by you or by someone else. . If you have a good reason to resend this message to the list (for instance because you have been notified of a hardware failure with loss of data), please alter the text of the message in some way and resend it to the list. Note that altering the "Subject:" line or adding blank lines at the top or bottom of the message is not sufficient; you should instead add a sentence or two at the top explaining why you are resending the message, so that the other subscribers understand why they are getting two copies of the same message. ------------------------ Rejected message (22 lines) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Indology Subject: Prefix - no Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Jul 19 12:12:56 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 13:12:56 +0100 Subject: Prefix - no In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060124.23782.728243380954257387.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prefix - no Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From dkprint at 4MIS.COM Wed Jul 19 08:13:10 2000 From: dkprint at 4MIS.COM (dkprint) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 13:43:10 +0530 Subject: prefix Message-ID: <161227060101.23782.2449495549275198795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Prefix - NO Susheel K. Mittal D.K. Printworld (P) Ltd. From tlk at POST.COM Wed Jul 19 13:32:21 2000 From: tlk at POST.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 15:32:21 +0200 Subject: prefix - no Message-ID: <161227060131.23782.16420733231590537321.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> prefix - no --- Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jul 19 10:11:29 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 15:41:29 +0530 Subject: vote Message-ID: <161227060110.23782.11789551111248556680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> no Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: George Baumann To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: Re: vote Prefix: no > Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:11:59 -0700 > Reply-to: Indology > From: Pravrajika Vrajaprana > Subject: YES > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages > >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. > > > >Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming > >indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in > >the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would > >prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of > >the subject line. > > > >Let's vote on this issue. > > > >If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line > >"prefix - yes". > > > >If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject > >line "prefix - no". > > > >-- > >Dominik Wujastyk > >Founder, INDOLOGY list > > > > > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 > >From: Thomas Anzenhofer > >To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk > >Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY > > > >Dear Mr. Wujastyk, > > > >Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: > > > >Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages > >that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists myself, > >and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the > >beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has > >f. e. "[Indologie] ": > > > >(Original message:) > > > >Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > > > >(Message received from "Indologie":) > > > >Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > > > >That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in > >times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain > >abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... > > > >Greetings (^: > > > >Thomas Anzenhofer > ___________________________________________________________ Dr. G. Baumann Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen Wilhelmstr. 32 D-72016 Tuebingen Tel.: +7071-2972587 Fax: +7071-293123 ___________________________________________________________ From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Thu Jul 20 00:20:43 2000 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 16:20:43 -0800 Subject: prefix - no In-Reply-To: <200007190644.IAA17584@tiger.vscht.cz> Message-ID: <161227060103.23782.15874470826709520278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Lawrence From cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK Wed Jul 19 16:43:51 2000 From: cfynn at DIRCON.CO.UK (Christopher J. Fynn) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 17:43:51 +0100 Subject: prefix- no Message-ID: <161227060144.23782.15266127770119881486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prefix - NO From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Wed Jul 19 17:24:04 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 18:24:04 +0100 Subject: prefix - no In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060156.23782.17350362070559039011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have had several tries at this; unfortunately the server rejects postings which are too similar ! >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Wed Jul 19 17:39:54 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 18:39:54 +0100 Subject: Similes & Metaphors Message-ID: <161227060148.23782.14758563672827935043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many Indian philosophical texts have a liking for similes and metaphors to illustrate the point in hand -- certainly Buddhist texts I read have a great number of these. Some are well-known stock similes but others are more unusual. I was wondering if anybody has researched or compiled a list of such similes ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA Wed Jul 19 23:49:42 2000 From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela or Alain Sandness Leblanc) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 18:49:42 -0500 Subject: vote Message-ID: <161227060165.23782.12827986548321674805.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> No. ---------- >From: Rajesh Kochhar >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: vote >Date: Wed, Jul 19, 2000, 5:11 AM > >no >Prof Rajesh Kochhar >Director >National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies >Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 >ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 >altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com >web site http://nistads.res.in >-----Original Message----- >From: George Baumann >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 10:55 AM >Subject: Re: vote > > >Prefix: no > > >> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:11:59 -0700 >> Reply-to: Indology >> From: Pravrajika Vrajaprana >> Subject: YES >> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > >> >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages >> >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. >> > >> >Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming >> >indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in >> >the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would >> >prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length >of >> >the subject line. >> > >> >Let's vote on this issue. >> > >> >If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line >> >"prefix - yes". >> > >> >If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject >> >line "prefix - no". >> > >> >-- >> >Dominik Wujastyk >> >Founder, INDOLOGY list >> > >> > >> > >> >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 >> >From: Thomas Anzenhofer >> >To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >> >Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY >> > >> >Dear Mr. Wujastyk, >> > >> >Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: >> > >> >Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages >> >that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists >myself, >> >and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the >> >beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has >> >f. e. "[Indologie] ": >> > >> >(Original message:) >> > >> >Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen >> > >> >(Message received from "Indologie":) >> > >> >Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen >> > >> >That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in >> >times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain >> >abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... >> > >> >Greetings (^: >> > >> >Thomas Anzenhofer >> >___________________________________________________________ > >Dr. G. Baumann >Universitaetsbibliothek Tuebingen >Wilhelmstr. 32 >D-72016 Tuebingen >Tel.: +7071-2972587 >Fax: +7071-293123 >___________________________________________________________ > From rjsimman at MAGIX.COM.SG Wed Jul 19 11:03:35 2000 From: rjsimman at MAGIX.COM.SG (Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 19:03:35 +0800 Subject: Kanchi mutt's connection with Shankaracharya Message-ID: <161227060116.23782.4961943817714192216.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am observing with interest the recent discussion on the dating of Shankaracharya's time period. This calls into a question yet another dispute that exists within Shankarite circles, ie. the link of the kanchi mutt to Shankara. Traditionally, it is acknowledged that only 4 mutts were personally established by Shankara and the kanchi mutt does not feature in this list. The kanchi mutt however insists that it is Shankara who personally established this mutt as his last mutt before he departed from this mortal world. Consequently, the debate also extends to the place of his final departure. The Kanchi mutt considers this place to be kanchipuram while the others point to Badari, Himalayas, north india, etc. What is the verdict on these disputes if there is one from the Indological viewpoint ? R. Jai Simman Singapore From tawady at YAHOO.COM Wed Jul 19 18:49:26 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 19:49:26 +0100 Subject: [[OT] taqdiir kaa sikandar] Message-ID: <161227060158.23782.16158139616219430655.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>>>Has Alexander's name been remembered in India/Pakistan ever > since his trip to Pakistan? > >The earliest reference to Sikandar in Hindi Literature is in the 16th century >Hindi poem "PadumAvat" by JAyasI [Bk. 1, verse-group 13, where JAyasI compares >his patron Sher Shah to "iskandar"]. >Sikandar or Al-sikandar seems to be a theme in the Perso-Arabic source of >South Asian cultural history, rather than in the Sanskritic [Indo-Aryan] >source. > > >Jogesh Panda How about the Nuristani Kalasha of Afghanistan's cultural memory of Alexander as well is what about Alexander -> Skanda as postulated by some? Regards Raveen From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Wed Jul 19 21:13:45 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 00 22:13:45 +0100 Subject: [[OT] taqdiir kaa sikandar] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060163.23782.2885919350492797149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen Satkurunathan writes > > what about Alexander -> Skanda as postulated by some? > This seems unlikely. Skanda appears already in ChAndogya UpaniSad VII.26.2 as a name for SanatkumAra. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU Thu Jul 20 01:41:20 2000 From: jdwhite at EMAIL.UNCC.EDU (J. Daniel White) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 02:41:20 +0100 Subject: prefix - no Message-ID: <161227060167.23782.5123967018576883653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ================================================================= J. Daniel White, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Studies Department of Religious Studies The University of North Carolina at Charlotte 9201 University City Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28223 USA Telephone: (704) 687-4601 Fax: (704) 687-3002 Email: jdwhite at email.uncc.edu From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 20 13:37:01 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 06:37:01 -0700 Subject: Similes & Metaphors Message-ID: <161227060195.23782.16851007360874636610.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sanskrit: 1. J. Gonda, Remarks on similes in Sanskrit literature, 1949, E. J. Brill 2. B. Bhattacharya, A history of rUpaka in the alankArashAstra, 1982 Varanasi: Chaukhambha Orientalia Tamil: 1. Ara. CinkAra VaTivElan, Canka ilakkiya uvamaikaL, Tevakottai, 1986 2. T. Nataraja Sarma, The simile in Tamil; a comparative study of Tolkappiaym uvamai iyal and Thandiyalankaram uvamai aNi, 1971 Nagercoil. Best regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Jul 20 13:53:23 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 06:53:23 -0700 Subject: frog and princess(?) Message-ID: <161227060198.23782.17365736568956227154.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Monsoon rain god?! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 20 08:03:46 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 08:03:46 +0000 Subject: frog and princess(?) Message-ID: <161227060181.23782.5231287262201272757.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A query for art experts on the list - A friend sent me pictures of a small statue, that he would like to identify (place/period/myth behind it). It is a very realistic depiction of a frog with a woman (princess/goddess?) sitting on the left hind leg. Images of varAha or narasimha with bhU/SrI are common, but I can't think of any Indian myths involving a frog with a wife. The only woman I can think of is maNDodarI, wife of rAvaNa, but then, maNDodarI is not the wife of a maNDUka, so this is puzzling. I've asked Dominik to put up the pictures of the frog+woman statue at the Indology website, hoping that someone can throw some light on it. Please see, http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/members/sundaresan/ Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 20 15:21:40 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 08:21:40 -0700 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060202.23782.6477360488520899486.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ulrich wrote : >I do not subscribe to the Advaita list and have thus not been present >in >the "original discussions". The rest of your answer about "ignoring >all >the arguments", etc., I believe are not related to what I wrote >but seem >to be an answer to Vidyasankar Sundaresan (?). I'm sorry that the mail wasn't more specific. Everything was addressed only to Vidyasankar, even the reference to you. >Of course, I might look up your postings on the Advaita List in their > >archive (though you did not provide a weblink), http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ Search for,"Understanding MAdhyamaka". >but I do frankly find it frustrating that you thus engage in a thread >simultaneously on two >different lists in this way. I do not feel that I >could respond to what you might have written on the Advaita List here on >the Indology >List. So, what am I to do with that information? My arguments are present in the archives of the Advaitin list. So whoever is interested can look them up. After that how does it matter where you raise the questions? Your questions are directed at my views, which are bound neither to a particular place nor time. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Thu Jul 20 04:49:10 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 10:19:10 +0530 Subject: taqdiir kaa sikandar Message-ID: <161227060178.23782.15964259392021095525.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Both Hindus and Muslims have been using Sikandar as a "Christian " name: Sikandar Lal, Sikandar Bakht.There is a "popular" saying: gaya jab sikandar duniya se dono haath khali the.This means that when Sikandar died both his hands were empty. ( Futility of ambition)Sikandar by his campaigns introduced the cocept of empire into India. Interestingly, the Indian word for Greek, Yunani, predates Alexander, who was a Macedonian. Northwest India's introduction to Greeks came during the Persian Achaemenid times when Ionians were brougt over, as punishment for revolt or for their safety. rajesh kochhar ********************************************************************* Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Rajarshi Banerjee To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 8:30 PM Subject: taqdiir kaa sikandar >(an Alexander in fortune > very lucky person) > > How common is "taqdiir kaa sikandar" as an expression > in Urdu? in Hindi? > > Any other Indian languages have equivalents (with sikandar)? > > > Has Alexander's name been remembered in India/Pakistan ever > since his trip to Pakistan? > >RB> Bucephalus is supposed to have been buried in pakistan. Is there any >site? > > Do other expressions with 'sikandar' exist in > Urdu and Hindi? > >RB> muqaddar kA sikandar: a popular hindi film. > >the word sikandar comes from the arabic persian/world to india and is urdu >ranther hindi. There is no pre islamic memory of alexander in india/pakistan >as far as I have heard. Greek kings/satraps like antiochus and demetrius and >selucus(not sure?) have been mentioned but not alexander. > >In fact I am not even sure if there any indian records which mention ambhi >and paruravas (porus). A popular TV series chanakya showed chanakya >interacting with porus wonder what the basis for such stories are. From hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK Thu Jul 20 18:20:30 2000 From: hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK (hmdplawr at UXMAIL.UST.HK) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 10:20:30 -0800 Subject: Similes & Metaphors In-Reply-To: <00a101bff1a8$77964600$7a30893e@stephen> Message-ID: <161227060172.23782.15106543063382438976.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One article I am familiar with is Navjivan Rastogi, "Some More Nyayas as Employed by Abhinavagupta," Annals BORI LXV (1984): 27-42. Glancing at the article again, I see that he refers to an article by Iyer (probably K.A.S., but I don't see the reference) on nyayas in Kashmiri texts. He also refers to a book by Col. Jacob, A Handful or Popular Maxims or Laukikanyayanjalih, 3 vols. I have also never seen the latter, but it may include some references to philosophy. I imagine there are more recent studies. Best regards, David Lawrence Division of Humanities Hong Kong University of Science and Technology On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:39:54 +0100 s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) wrote: >Many Indian philosophical texts have a liking for similes and >metaphors to illustrate the point in hand -- certainly Buddhist texts >I read have a great number of these. Some are well-known stock >similes but others are more unusual. I was wondering if anybody has >researched or compiled a list of such similes ? > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM Thu Jul 20 14:20:53 2000 From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 10:20:53 -0400 Subject: prefix - no Message-ID: <161227060200.23782.385557188411976707.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> << prefix - no >> From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Jul 20 17:32:41 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 10:32:41 -0700 Subject: [Re: [[OT] taqdiir kaa sikandar]] Message-ID: <161227060213.23782.11954902558591490189.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Raveen Satkurunathan wrote: >>How about the Nuristani Kalasha of Afghanistan's cultural memory of Alexander How about what? Any pre-16th century Nuristani Kalasha text that exists and mentions Alexander? I will be interested to know. As about the 19th century theory that the Nuristanis were descendants of Alexander's army, that has long since been abandoned. No more "The-man-who-would-be-king" type of trivializing history. The alleged "cultural memory" was/is created by 19th century colonialist theorizing zeal. >>as well as Alexander-> Skanda as proposed by some? Very unlikely, as has been shown by other members. Seems extra-scholarly to me. I think this topic has privileged membership; is too transparent; and furthermore I am afraid of the incorrigibility of the initiates. Best wishes. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP Thu Jul 20 02:33:06 2000 From: prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP (Matsumura) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 11:33:06 +0900 Subject: prefix - no In-Reply-To: <200007190644.IAA17584@tiger.vscht.cz> Message-ID: <161227060175.23782.10965121267079565864.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > prefix - yes > -- Hisashi MATSUMURA From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Jul 20 10:42:21 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 11:42:21 +0100 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060186.23782.8172932907827715038.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Palaniappan wrote : While such a speech in that forum would not normally belong in Indology, the "70 centuries" of brahminic contribution proudly mentioned by one of the leading neurosurgeons of India should be of some concern to Indologists. The traditional date for the start of the Mahabharata war puts it at 3000 BC. So 70 centuries is in line with tradition. If you object to a leading neurosurgeon of India believing in this, I hope you are equally concerned about neurosurgeons who believe that God created Adam, that Moses parted the sea, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection and other such varieties of superstitious belief. Admittedly, Indology would not be the right place to raise such a concern. If you make an argument that the former variety of belief is oppressive, there is an equally strong argument that the latter variety of belief is oppressive as well. My point simply is that "70 centuries" is a variety of religious belief, one that takes the chronology of the Puranas literally, exactly as the Christian beliefs I mentioned take the word of the Bible literally. -arun gupta From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET Thu Jul 20 16:11:23 2000 From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 12:11:23 -0400 Subject: prefix - no Message-ID: <161227060208.23782.58435763862282996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another potential problem in this proposal: searches in the Indology list for postings containing the word indology in the posting would no longer generate useful results. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America Telephone: 215-747-6204 email: emstern at bellatlantic.net From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Thu Jul 20 11:23:32 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 13:23:32 +0200 Subject: SV: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060191.23782.11132685084247385053.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta [SMTP:suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET] skrev 20. juli 2000 12:42: > > While such a speech in that forum would not normally belong in Indology, the > "70 centuries" of brahminic contribution proudly mentioned by one of the > leading neurosurgeons of India should be of some concern to Indologists. > If you object to a leading neurosurgeon of India believing in this, > I hope you are equally concerned about neurosurgeons who believe that > God created Adam, that Moses parted the sea, the Virgin Birth, the > Resurrection and other such varieties of superstitious belief. > Admittedly, Indology would not be the right place to raise such a > concern. > My point simply is that "70 centuries" is a variety of religious belief, > one that takes the chronology of the Puranas literally, exactly as the > Christian beliefs I mentioned take the word of the Bible literally. I'll agree with that. But I would also like to point out that if the religious or political beliefs of our doctors and dentists are used as a criterion when we choose them, I fear that many of us would prefer to remain sick and stick to our toothaches. Luckily, there is little connection between a man's professional capacities and his personal beliefs. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET Thu Jul 20 17:31:47 2000 From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: The date of Sankara In-Reply-To: <20000716230004.RCZH493.immta3.bellatlantic.net@listserv.liv.ac.uk> Message-ID: <161227060210.23782.16636181749163511886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> on 16/07/2000 7:00 PM, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK wrote: > From: "N. Ganesan" > Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:47:35 GMT > Subject: Re: The date of Sankara > > K. Raja's ALB paper concludes that Adi Sankara (800 CE) date > mainly depends on taking vAcaspatimizra to have lived around > 841 CE. > > K. Kunjunni Raja, On the date of "SaMkarAcArya and allied problems, > ALB, 1963, v. 24 The volume date is 1960, not 1963. > "Conclusion: > A detailed examination of all the evidence leads us to the > following conclusion. "SaMkara is later than BhartRhari, > DiGnAga, GauDapAda, DharmakIrti and KumArila and cannot > be earlier than A.D. 650. Since VAcaspati wrote one of > his works in A.D. 841, and since he is later than > "SaMkara by one or two generations, "SaMkara has to be > placed before A.D. 800. The absence of any reference to > the philosophical system of "SaMkara in the works of > "SAntarakSita and KamalazIla, even when they discuss an > AdvaitavAda under the heading of UpaniSadvAda, and also > in the work of HaribhadrasUri shows that "SaMkara's > theories had not spread by the second half of the eigth > century. Hence the works of "SaMkara must have been > composed towards the close of the eigth century A.D." Please recall the reply (Re: on zankara's date - 2) I sent to this list on 7 January 2000 to your earlier message, in which I argued that zaGkaraH could scarcely have lived much after 760CE, and suggested that he probably lived somewhat earlier. That argument depended on the relative chronology we may construct, when we see that kamalazIlaH quotes umbekaH, commentator on one of maNDana's works, and if we accept that maNDanaH came later, or was contemporary to, zaGkaraH. Note that on page 142 in the article you cite, Prof. Kunjunni Raja has accepted that "MaNDanamizra was another contemporary of ZaMkara", though he does not seem yet to have accepted the chronological priority of umbekaH to kamalazIlaH (page 137: "perhaps UMveka is the same as Ubeyaka quoted by KamalazIla in his *PaJjikA* commentary"). However, he later unequivocally accepts the identity of umbekaH and uveyakaH on pages viii-x of his preface (dated 17 March 1971) to the second edition of *zlokavArtikavyAkhyA tAtparyaTIkA of uMveka bhaTTa*. You might also look at K. Kunjunni Raja's article "On the dates of ZaMkara and MaNDana" (ALB 55 (1991):104-116). In this later article, he claims (page 114): "MaNDana's *Brahmasiddhi* does not refer to the views of ZaMkara, and Zamkara, too, does not refer to MaNDana or his views", but he neglects to explain his rejection of S. Kuppuswami Sastri's carefully justified position (in the introduction to his edition of brahmasiddhiH) that maNDanaH refers in brahmasiddhiH to zaMkara's brahmasUtrabhASyam, a position that he had apparently accepted in the 1960 article (page 142). Please note, by the way, that he continues to accept in 1991 that umbekaH is referred to by kamalaZIlaH (pages 112-113). Kunjunni Raja's concludes the 1991 article (pages 115-116) thus: "ZAntirakSita and KamalaZIla seem to refer to MaNDana; they do not speak about ZaMkara or his theories. HaribhadrasUri who flourished between 700 and 770 A.D. refoers to BhartRhari, DignAga and DharmakIrti but does not refer to ZaMkara at all; this indicates that ZaMkara may be laterthan 750 A.D. In Bhavya's presentation of the VedAntadarzana in the *MAdhyamakahhRdayakArikA* and its auto-commentary *TarkajvAlA* there is no reference to ZaMkara or his theories (MaNDana is also not mentioned), which indicates that ZaMkara is later than Bhavya (700-750 A.D.); or at least that ZaMkara had not become a famous VedAntin when Bhavya wrote his work; HaribhadrasUri, too, does not refer to ZaMkara or MaNDana. "There is nothing which stands in the way of the popular tradition making ZaMkara and MaNDana contemporaries. They could have lived in the eighth century A.D." As in the conlusion of the 1960 article, he invokes negative evidences in the conclusion of the 1991, but he is careful in 1991 to say 'may' rather than 'must', and he concedes that absence of reference to zaGkara's work, even in a section of a work dealing with vedAntadarzanam, does not equate with that work predating zaGkara's. In summary, I do not see any strong argument in any of the above referenced writings by K. Kunjunni Raja that would lead me to modify or abandon the relative chronology I set forth in my 7 January posting to this list. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 United States of America Telephone: 215-747-6204 email: emstern at bellatlantic.net From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Jul 20 12:56:17 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 13:56:17 +0100 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060193.23782.7571130010457432494.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I've just discovered (thanks Richard) that this is all unnecessary! The Listserv software can be configured on a person-by-person basis to add this [INDOLOGY] header or not. Just go to the website (via www.indology.org.uk) and you will see that you can adjust all sorts of useful settings for yourself. Apologies for the red herring. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ Thu Jul 20 02:22:41 2000 From: rbm49 at STUDENT.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ (Mahoney, Richard B.) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 14:22:41 +1200 Subject: INDOLOGY Digest - 18 Jul 2000 to 19 Jul 2000 (#2000-83) In-Reply-To: <01JRZKJW4SQE96VQL8@its.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <161227060170.23782.639303465471988399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ``no" - filters work well enough -- Regards Richard Mahoney From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Thu Jul 20 12:36:36 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 14:36:36 +0200 Subject: Sv: Re: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060189.23782.16336043389161878425.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> NB: following the complaint of HTML format in postings, I have tried to avoid this problem. If someone nevertheless receives this mail in an unfortunate format, please let me know off-line. Nanda Chandran wrote: > For Ulrich, I've already pointed out the references present in my > articles in the archives of the Advaita or Advaitin list. Since > you were present in the original discussions, you do not need them. > But ofcourse, in your classic way, you'll ignore all the > arguments and keep repeating your own arguments. >etc. I do not subscribe to the Advaita list and have thus not been present in the "original discussions". The rest of your answer about "ignoring all the arguments", etc., I believe are not related to what I wrote but seem to be an answer to Vidyasankar Sundaresan (?). Of course, I might look up your postings on the Advaita List in their archive (though you did not provide a weblink), but I do frankly find it frustrating that you thus engage in a thread simultaneously on two different lists in this way. I do not feel that I could respond to what you might have written on the Advaita List here on the Indology List. So, what am I to do with that information? Best regards, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen utkragh at hum.ku.dk From tlk at POST.COM Thu Jul 20 15:30:10 2000 From: tlk at POST.COM (Toke Lindegaard Knudsen) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 17:30:10 +0200 Subject: Indus Valley Civilization, geometrical knowledge Message-ID: <161227060205.23782.7591095199497978070.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [I am cross-posting this letter both to the Indology list and the Math History list -- I apologise if someone receive this twice.] Dear list members, In 1978 Dr. R. P. Kulkarni published an article where he examined the geometrical knowledge available to the ancient people of the Indus Valley civilization (Indian Journal of History of Science, Vol. 13, pp. 117-124). It was later later reprinted as a chapter in his book "Geometry According to Sulba Sutra" (Pune: Vaidika Samsodhana Mandala, 1983). Based on the works of Mackay and Marshall Dr. Kulkarni presents a list of geometrical propositions that the Indus Valley people must have known. This is the only work of this type that I am aware of. Is anyone aware of other works of this type, i.e. studies of the level of mathematical knowledge available in the Indus Valley civilization? Any comments would be appreciated. Sincerely, Toke Lindegaard Knudsen From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Thu Jul 20 10:06:07 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 18:06:07 +0800 Subject: new KOLAM Message-ID: <161227060184.23782.10310474273879919174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear All! After a gap of one year - which means that we skipped one vol. - the new KOLAM is on the net as a double volume with 12 articles. It is now published from Singapore: http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/journal/kolam/index.htm Along with the "geographical" change, we have included a few changes in the concept of this "ezine". It is for instance now meant to be "A Mirror of Tamil and Dravidian Culture", which means, that in future we will publish also articles on and translations from the other South Indian cultures/languages/... Moreover, KOLAM is now an internationally refereed journal. ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ another ANNOUNCEMENT: newKOLAM, Vol. 5&6 will be officially launched on Saturday, 22nd of July 2000, at 12.30 PM at the SUNTEC CITY Convention Centre, during the Tamil Inaiyam 2000 (Tamil Internet) conference, where our Faculty will have an exhibition-stall on Computer-use in University education. Those list-members who take part in Tamil-Inaiyam and will be in Singapore at that time are invited to participate in our small function. WIth kind regards, Ulrike Niklas & Sascha Ebeling editors of KOLAM ____________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________ You are invited to contribute articles, translations, etc. If you want to contact KOLAM, please, use this email-address:newkolam at hotmail.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Jul 20 18:14:21 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 19:14:21 +0100 Subject: frog and princess(?) In-Reply-To: <20000720080347.28202.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227060215.23782.16709083850078300500.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes >A friend sent me pictures of a small statue, that he would >like to identify (place/period/myth behind it). It is a very >realistic depiction of a frog with a woman (princess/goddess?) >sitting on the left hind leg. Images of varAha or narasimha >with bhU/SrI are common, but I can't think of any Indian myths >involving a frog with a wife. The only woman I can think of is >maNDodarI, wife of rAvaNa, but then, maNDodarI is not the wife >of a maNDUka, so this is puzzling. It's certainly an intriguing little statue--clearly South Indian, though it's not really possible to date it from the picture. As you suggest, the female figure is in the pose of a consort of a god (GaNes'a's wife, for example, as well as those you have mentioned). Apart from that, I'd wonder whether she was a local river goddess with a frog as her symbol, as GangA has the makara and YamunA the turtle. But they normally stand on their vAhanas' backs, rather than sit on their knees! One thing in favour of this identification, though, and against the consort theory, is that her right arm seems just to be resting against the frog, rather than wrapped round his neck. But then it is rather an unconventionally shaped neck... Is this definitely a separate piece, or could it be part of a decoration from some larger object? South Indian figures of deities normally have a base to rest on, often a lotus throne on a larger pedestal. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Jul 20 19:16:21 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 00 19:16:21 +0000 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060217.23782.7740140545124721144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Elliot M. Stern" wrote: >You might also look at K. Kunjunni Raja's article "On the dates of ZaMkara >and MaNDana" (ALB 55 (1991):104-116). In this later article, he claims >(page >114): "MaNDana's *Brahmasiddhi* does not refer to the views of ZaMkara, and >Zamkara, too, does not refer to MaNDana or his views", but he neglects to >explain his rejection of S. Kuppuswami Sastri's carefully justified >position >(in the introduction to his edition of brahmasiddhiH) that maNDanaH refers >in brahmasiddhiH to zaMkara's brahmasUtrabhASyam, a position that he had >apparently accepted in the 1960 article (page 142). Perhaps I can fill in a little detail here, based on personal communication with Kunjunni Raja from three years ago. What is behind this 1991 position is the recognition that many sections of zaMkara's brahmasUtra bhASya are reproduced from earlier works, perhaps the often mentioned vRtti(s). In which case, what is apparently a quote from the bhASya could turn out to be a quote from earlier author(s), and the zaMkara-maNDana question would have to be revisited. Kuppuswami Sastri's edition of Brahmasiddhi was done in 1937, when not much was generally known about bhAskara's commentary. Writing in the same period, S. N. Dasgupta says only that bhAskara was post-zaMkara and pre-udayana. He does not give a narrower range for bhAskara's date than that, although Hiriyanna had already shown that vAcaspati responds to bhAskara's arguments against zaMkara. In this context, Ingalls's PEW paper (1954, 3: 291-306) is very pertinent. There are entire sections in bhAskara's brahmasUtrabhASya that are identical with zaMkara's bhASya. It could hardly be that bhAskara, who is the first to call zaMkara a crypto-Buddhist, has lifted these verbatim from zaMkara. We could build on the postulate that as far as these common portions are concerned, both bhAskara and zaMkara are reproducing sections of earlier work(s). It then needs to be checked whether maNDana refers to those sections that are found in zaMkara's work and not in bhAskara's work. If not, one cannot be certain that maNDana quotes from zaMkara's bhASya. E-texts of both zaMkara's and bhAskara's commentaries would greatly facilitate such work. Somebody needs to do it. Needless to say, this would also have wide implications for another issue that greatly interests me - criteria that decide the genuineness of texts attributed to zaMkara (Hacker, Mayeda etc.). These are based on the notion that zaMkara is, by definition, the author of the brahmasUtra bhASya. If numerous passages from this work are not original with zaMkara, authorship criteria have to be appropriately revised. Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 21 07:11:46 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 07:11:46 +0000 Subject: frog and princess(?) Message-ID: <161227060219.23782.4968278111137723819.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Is this definitely a separate piece, or could it be part of a decoration >from some larger object? South Indian figures of deities normally have a >base to rest on, often a lotus throne on a larger pedestal. > The owner of the statue seems to have it as a separate piece. In the absence of anything tangible to relate it to, my guess was that it is just some imaginative decorative thing. Can't be too old, if so. Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Jul 21 07:17:54 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 08:17:54 +0100 Subject: frog and princess(?) Message-ID: <161227060221.23782.56265725380619553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further thoughts on the mysterious statue: in South India, metal images* of deities are cast solid, but other figures--donors, ornamental figures etc--don't have to be. Your friend can probably check this by eye, or at least by the weight of the piece. This would at least give a clue what *kind* of image this is. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK * generally but not quite accurately called "bronzes", since they're made of a different alloy of copper. Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes >A friend sent me pictures of a small statue, that he would >like to identify (place/period/myth behind it). It is a very >realistic depiction of a frog with a woman (princess/goddess?) >sitting on the left hind leg. Images of varAha or narasimha >with bhU/SrI are common, but I can't think of any Indian myths >involving a frog with a wife. The only woman I can think of is >maNDodarI, wife of rAvaNa, but then, maNDodarI is not the wife >of a maNDUka, so this is puzzling. I wrote >As you suggest, the female figure is in the pose of a consort of a god >(GaNes'a's wife, for example, as well as those you have mentioned). Apart >from that, I'd wonder whether she was a local river goddess with a frog as >her symbol, as GangA has the makara and YamunA the turtle. But they >normally stand on their vAhanas' backs, rather than sit on their knees! >One thing in favour of this identification, though, and against the >consort theory, is that her right arm seems just to be resting against the >frog, rather than wrapped round his neck. But then it is rather an >unconventionally shaped neck... > >Is this definitely a separate piece, or could it be part of a decoration >from some larger object? South Indian figures of deities normally have a >base to rest on, often a lotus throne on a larger pedestal. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 21 07:56:05 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 08:56:05 +0100 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060223.23782.15315125867277197712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >>the arguments", etc., I believe are not related to what I wrote >but seem >>to be an answer to Vidyasankar Sundaresan (?). > >I'm sorry that the mail wasn't more specific. Everything was addressed only >to Vidyasankar, even the reference to you. Ah, finally. Thanks for this admission. It explains a lot about who has specific agenda, and what those may be! I'm sorry if I've caused you some manaH-kleSa. >http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > >Search for,"Understanding MAdhyamaka". Why don't you point interested readers to the actual scene of the action - http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/ and to the threads "Understanding Madhyamaka" and "Antiquity of Advaita Vedanta"? The response you got on the Advaitin list boils down to, "Thank you, Nandhaji, for that nice article on Advaita and Madhyamaka." Nobody made an effort to enter into a serious discussion with you. Perhaps they are all very wise; perhaps they couldn't care less. To clarify, Advaita and Advaitin are two different lists. All the earlier discussion between Nandha and I took place on the Advaita list. The archives are available at the URL I've given above. And there were other well informed participants in the discussion too, who debated with Nandha more than I did. Best wishes, Vidyasankar From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Fri Jul 21 14:59:06 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 10:59:06 -0400 Subject: Vedic Concordance downloadable (and RV) Message-ID: <161227060228.23782.9168986091378131271.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> M. Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance is now available in electronic form. We at IAVS thank Marco Franceschini and Alex Passi for their foresight, hard work, and for their generosity in making this important work accessible to all scholars. Please note that the Concordance is *copyrighted in Italy and the USA.* It is available only for *private use* of scholars and the interested public (see below). Infringements of the joint copyright of M. Franceschini/Harvard Oriental Series will be pursued by legal means. I stress this as such has happened with the van Nooten/Holland Rgveda (HOS 50, 1994) which has been indiscriminately copied, changed, and rebroadcast, and in the process, successively degraded. By now, there is a veritable stemma of mistakes. Only the copies in TITUS (U. Frankfurt), J.R. Gardner's Vedavid, Tokyo (Tokyo U.), and Harvard U./HOS (via my website, below) are legal and correct ones. (TITUS actually has a slightly improved version which will be used for the planned reprint; the book is out of print now). http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/ http://www.vedavid.org/ http://www.gengo.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~hkum/rigveda.html J.R. Gardner's version helps those who use Mac, and the Tokyo version enables all users of the Japanese OS to access and use these files which is difficult otherwise (as explained in the web site). Most are linked via Dominik's e-text page: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgadkw/indnet-textarchive.html (Dominik, could you please linke the Concordance as well?) I copy, below, M. Franceschini's/A.Passi's original announcement of the Concordance made to IAVS a few days ago. MW =============================================================================== IAVS NEWS BULLETIN No. 2 (July 19, 2000) INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF VEDIC STUDIES (http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/) Dear Members of IAVS, we are very glad to inform you that a complete electronic version of Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance is now freely available and downloadable at the following sites. This version is under US and Italian copyright and meant for the private use of scholars only. Italian site: http://digilander.iol.it/marcofrance American site (presently under reconstruction): http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sanskrit/pubs.html (for the moment, also directly at): http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicConcordance/ReadmeEng.html The files contained in these sites constitute the result of a research project undertaken by Marco Franceschini, under the supervision of Prof. Alessandro Passi, at the University of Bologna. They were scanned and processed from the edition in the Harvard Oriental Series, Vol. 10: "A Vedic Concordance, being an alphabetic index to every line of every stanza of the published Vedic literature and to the liturgical formulas thereof, that is, an index [in Roman letters] to the Vedic mantras, together with an account of their variations in the different Vedic books, by Professor MAURICE BLOOMFIELD, Professor of Sanskrit and Comparative Philology, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. -- Cambridge (Mass.) 1906. Pages, 1102. Royal 4?." Typographical mistakes in the original edition have been corrected. The files are provided for both the Macintosh and PC/Windows platforms: each version comes with its own font, respectively Macind and Winind (of course, users must load the new font unto their machines before running the files). Besides the font, the Archives contain three files: Introduction, Abbreviations, and Concordance. Due to the large size of the main file, containing the working part of the text ("Concordance", about 5.6 Mbytes unstuffed in the Mac version), it is advisable to allot a considerable amount of memory to the application used: Nisus (Mac platform) works very smoothly with about 40 Mbytes of RAM. If you do not have Nisus you can also use other word processors (which are slower, though). More detailed instructions are contained in the downloadable files. For any question or problem, please write to Marco Franceschini at bloom at alma.unibo.it Comments and suggestions are welcome and will be appreciated. Bologna, July 2000 Alessandro Passi and Marco Franceschini ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Jul 21 17:43:34 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 13:43:34 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060234.23782.10552131365438260045.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/20/2000 5:43:23 AM Central Daylight Time, suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > The traditional date for the start of the Mahabharata war puts it at > 3000 BC. So 70 centuries is in line with tradition. In the absence of any evidence shown for the use of the time period of 70 centuries in the Indian tradition, the above statement has no merit. In an earlier posting, I have linked '70 centuries' to the views of Rajaram. We know that Rajaram and others of his school insist that their views are based on archaelogy, hydrology, etc. So, all the statements about Christian religious beliefs by Arun Gupta are irrelevant and unwarranted vis-a-vis the present discussion. > My point simply is that "70 centuries" is a variety of religious belief, > one that takes the chronology of the Puranas literally, exactly as the > Christian beliefs I mentioned take the word of the Bible literally. See above. Rajaram does not offer his views as based on religious belief. It is precisely because of presenting the date as based on scientific analysis, Rajaram and others are able to convert many non-specialists to their point of view. Regards S. Palaniappan From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Jul 21 12:53:37 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 13:53:37 +0100 Subject: frog and princess(?) In-Reply-To: <20000721071146.7167.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227060225.23782.5951667450686008700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: >The owner of the statue seems to have it as a separate piece. >In the absence of anything tangible to relate it to, my guess >was that it is just some imaginative decorative thing. Can't >be too old, if so. But it doesn't look *that* recent, in terms of the proportions of the female figure, the style of her headgear etc. As for the iconography, if you or the owner of the piece live in South India, why not show it (or a photo) to a traditionally-trained sculptor? The Sthapatis carry in their memories a huge range of iconography, as embodied in traditional verses etc, and may instantly recognise an image that has defeated art-historians. (I have seen this happen.) If you manage to find anything out in this way, I would really like to know! Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 21 20:44:43 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 15:44:43 -0500 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060239.23782.17748420922445764865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >See above. Rajaram does not offer his views as based on >religious belief. It >is precisely because of presenting the date as based on scientific >analysis, >Rajaram and others are able to convert many non-specialists to their > >point of view. > Is there something wrong in Rajaram presenting his views as based on scientific analysis ? Isnt the AIT marketed as being based on scientific analysis,or is it now a matter of faith ? It is incumbent on Rajaram to present his case in a scientific manner. Factual history can be known only by considering various views. Until now, Indian history has been the monopoly of Europe. It is refreshing to see competition. Regards, Subrahmanya. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Jul 21 15:08:07 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 16:08:07 +0100 Subject: Trubner publications available again Message-ID: <161227060230.23782.15220898626767557417.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Routledge has republished the Trubner Oriental Series. See www.reference.routledge.com/trubner All the best, Dominik From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Jul 21 16:32:44 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 16:32:44 +0000 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060232.23782.7772911275517525011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Why don't you point interested readers to the actual scene of the >action - >http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/ >and to the threads "Understanding Madhyamaka" and "Antiquity of >Advaita Vedanta"? The reason that I didn't point them to this list was due to the enormous amount of useless argumentation in the discussion. On the Advaitin list my arguments are better structured, since I wasn't distracted. The audience was more mature and atleast willing to hear me out before attempting to shoot my theories down. (And when searching the archives on the Advaitin list search for "MAdhyamaka" and not "Understanding MAdhyamaka", as the first article in the series doesn't show up with the latter, as its subject line is different). >The response you got on the Advaitin list boils down to, "Thank >you, Nandhaji, for that nice article on Advaita and Madhyamaka." >Nobody made an effort to enter into a serious discussion with you. >Perhaps they are all very wise; perhaps they couldn't care less. Does netiquette bother Vidhyaji only when he is affected? And I've hardly seen anything to equal the above - slander on the members of one list on another list. In the month long discussion on the Advaita list, apart from one or two posts, the rest is for most part grounded in ignorance. About the list members knowledge of Buddhism, the less said the better. Mere quantity doesn't ensure quality. That you don't think so, doesn't surprise me anymore. >To clarify, Advaita and Advaitin are two different lists. All the >earlier discussion between Nandha and I took place on the Advaita >list. The archives are available at the URL I've given above. Yes, go ahead and look at the list. As I said before, the evidence is there for all to see. >And >there were other well informed participants in the discussion too, >who debated with Nandha more than I did. Yes, so well informed that they quote from both Hinayaana and Mahaayaana in the same breath, without even realizing the difference! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Jul 21 20:53:26 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 16:53:26 -0400 Subject: Indus Valley Civilization, geometrical knowledg Message-ID: <161227060241.23782.15036629467241759405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G.F.Dales in his article "Sex and Stone at Mohenjo-Daro (Frontiers of the Indus Civilization. Ed. by B.B.Lal and S.P.Gupta. Sir Mortimer Wheeler Commemoration Volume. New Delhi, 1984, pp. 109-115) reconsidered traditional interpretation of some specific stone artefacts as symbols of lingam and yoni. In Dales's opinion there are no grounds for this "erotic symbolism" interpretation. Instead he referred to the hypothesis by M.Jansen who had suggested that the stone rings might have been used in measuring angles and making astronomical calculations. RB> a suspented cone could be used as a plumb line. The ring could be used for marking a spot vertically below the point of suspension? What about the circular platforms are they always of the same diameter? Are the layout of the bricks in a standard repeated form? If so that could signify an understanding of the relationship between the radius and perimeter of a circle. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Fri Jul 21 22:30:06 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 18:30:06 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060243.23782.7830510964379718828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Factual history can be known only by considering various views. Until now, Indian history has been the monopoly of Europe. It is refreshing to see competition. RB> I have seen the AIT compared with the spanish invasion of south america. The AMT also reminds me of an - eastward ho, covered wagon scenario like the settling of the american west. Are comparisions scientific? The spanish had guns, canons, armour, steel, new disases all of which had a drastic effect on the native population particularly the diseases. It was an interaction of two civilizations separated by a huge technological gap. The northern neighbours of the meso americans had barely started agriculture and the region was nowhere as advanced as europe. Can the AMT / AIT be compared with this. Why cant we compare it with say the invasion of the pathans from central asia. Instead of north west india their influence spread in bengal. Bangladesh is today a muslim nation but their language is heavily sanskitized sometimes even more so than their bengali neighbours in the west. The propogation of religious beliefs and language may not be correlated. Judaic religions spread to europe but not the language. What is so special about central asia in the first place. parjanya the vedic storm/rain god as a bull is similar to a sumerian god having similar function. onagers draw the asvins chariot also hintng at west asian influence, influences can come from anywhere. Anyway so many scenarios are possible the evidence is too sketchy to support any of them. Is it too too much for indian text books to admit that the early indian history is not known, high-light various competing theories and leave it at that? RB From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Sat Jul 22 03:56:20 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 23:56:20 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060247.23782.6628484363755595582.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 7/21/2000 3:45:39 PM Central Daylight Time, subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Is there something wrong in Rajaram presenting his views > as based on scientific analysis ? Of course not. In fact, my objection to Arun Gupta was that he attributed the period of 70 centuries to a religious belief. > It is incumbent on Rajaram to present his case in a scientific manner. Sure. Only then, one can rationally test its validity. > Until now, Indian history has been the monopoly of Europe. I would appreciate references on works by Indian historians, from the ancient to the pre-European periods. Have these works been deliberately disregarded by Europeans? Regards S. Palaniappan From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Fri Jul 21 20:58:32 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 00 23:58:32 +0300 Subject: Indus Valley Civilization, geometrical knowledge In-Reply-To: <200007201555.e6KFt7D02563@thomson.uni2.net> Message-ID: <161227060237.23782.16032290518064778433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> G.F.Dales in his article "Sex and Stone at Mohenjo-Daro (Frontiers of the Indus Civilization. Ed. by B.B.Lal and S.P.Gupta. Sir Mortimer Wheeler Commemoration Volume. New Delhi, 1984, pp. 109-115) reconsidered traditional interpretation of some specific stone artefacts as symbols of lingam and yoni. In Dales's opinion there are no grounds for this "erotic symbolism" interpretation. Instead he referred to the hypothesis by M.Jansen who had suggested that the stone rings might have been used in measuring angles and making astronomical calculations. Unfortunately, I have not the book with me anymore and can not check if there are any direct references to M.Jansen's works. Hope it may be of use. All the best Yaroslav Vassilkov Thu, 20 Jul 100 18:30 +0300 MSK Toke Lindegaard Knudsen wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > [I am cross-posting this letter both to the Indology list and the Math > History list -- I apologise if someone receive this twice.] > > Dear list members, > > In 1978 Dr. R. P. Kulkarni published an article where he examined > the geometrical knowledge available to the ancient people of the > Indus Valley civilization (Indian Journal of History of Science, Vol. > 13, pp. 117-124). It was later later reprinted as a chapter in his > book "Geometry According to Sulba Sutra" (Pune: Vaidika > Samsodhana Mandala, 1983). Based on the works of Mackay and > Marshall Dr. Kulkarni presents a list of geometrical propositions > that the Indus Valley people must have known. > > This is the only work of this type that I am aware of. Is anyone > aware of other works of this type, i.e. studies of the level of > mathematical knowledge available in the Indus Valley civilization? > Any comments would be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Toke Lindegaard Knudsen > --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Fri, 21 Jul 100 22:47 +0300 MSK From a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU Sat Jul 22 00:05:33 2000 From: a.bowles at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Adam Bowles) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 10:05:33 +1000 Subject: prefix-no Message-ID: <161227060245.23782.14920284507564513291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Wujastyk To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, 19 July 2000 11:04 Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY (fwd) >A member has made the following suggestion that all INDOLOGY messages >should have "[INDOLOGY]" prefixed to the subject line. > >Personally, I have a mail filter set up that automatically sends incoming >indology messages to a separate folder, based on the string "indology" in >the "to: " field. So I have no need for such a prefix. In fact I would >prefer not to have it, since it "steals" ten characters from the length of >the subject line. > >Let's vote on this issue. > >If you want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject line >"prefix - yes". > >If you don't want a prefix, send a message to INDOLOGY with the subject >line "prefix - no". > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:01:57 +0200 >From: Thomas Anzenhofer >To: D.Wujastyk at ucl.ac.uk >Subject: Subject-prefix for INDOLOGY > >Dear Mr. Wujastyk, > >Being a subscriber to INDOLOGY, I would like to make a suggestion: > >Couldn't it be possible to generate a subject prefix for all the messages >that are distributed via INDOLOGY? I'm managing three mailing lists myself, >and Majordomo (which we use in Cologne) allows to insert a string at the >beginning of the subject header of each message. Our list "Indologie" has >f. e. "[Indologie] ": > >(Original message:) > >Subject: Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > >(Message received from "Indologie":) > >Subject: [Indologie] Internet-Radioprogramme in indischen Sprachen > >That's extremely helpful when you go through your inbox. Especially in >times when the discussion gets out of hands and you'd like to remain >abstinent for some time (without unsubscribing)... > >Greetings (^: > >Thomas Anzenhofer > From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Jul 22 19:34:41 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 12:34:41 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060256.23782.12336038947080041698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > Is there something wrong in Rajaram presenting his views > as based on scientific analysis ? He further declares: > It is incumbent on Rajaram to present his case in a scientific manner. As a new example of Rajaram's "scientific analysis," take a look at claims he makes about the supposed Harappan "horse seal" in his new book on the Harappan script. List participants will recall that Rajaram's "avaricious horse thieves" decipherment of the Dholavira sign board was thoroughly debunked by Michael Witzel and myself on this List a while back. The "horse seal" evidence is equally manufactured. To see a reproduction of the seal, go to: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion2.html Rajarm writes (p. 162): > The 'horse seal' goes to show that the oft repeated > claim of "No horse at Harappa" is entirely baseless. > Horse bones have been found at all levels at Harappan > sites. Also, as we have already seen, the word 'asva' > is a commonly occuring [sic] word on the seals. The > supposed 'horselessness' of the Harappans is a dogma > that has been exploded by evidence. But like its cousin > the Aryan invasion, it persists for reasons having > little to do with evidence or scholarship. > A well known 'Dravidianist' tried to argue with > Rajaram that the animal on the seal in question > (Mackay 453) is not a horse but a unicorn bull. A > comparison of the two creatures, especially in genital > area shows this to be fallacious. Given the importance of this claim, it is curious that the original of the seal is incorrectly referenced in Rajaram's book (see my note on the web page above). More information on the original seal will be posted when I track it down. Scientifically yours, Steve Farmer From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Sat Jul 22 11:23:19 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 13:23:19 +0200 Subject: Sv: Re: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060249.23782.14710457230403590480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Elliot M. Stern wrote: > In Bhavya's presentation of the VedAntadarzana in the *MAdhyamakahhRdayakArikA* > and its auto-commentary *TarkajvAlA* there is no reference to ZaMkara or his > theories (MaNDana is also not mentioned), which indicates that ZaMkara is > later than Bhavya (700-750 A.D.); or at least that ZaMkara had not become a > famous VedAntin when Bhavya wrote his work; HaribhadrasUri, too, does not > refer to ZaMkara or MaNDana. > Your dating of Bhavya as 700-750 AD is very unusual. Christian Lindtner gives c. 490-570 (in "Bhavya's Controversy with YogAcAra in the Appendix to PrajJApradIpa, chapter XXV", Tibetan and Buddhist Studies commemorating the 200th anniversary of the birth of Alxendar Csoma de K?r?s, ed. Louis Ligeti, vol. 2, Akademiai Kiado, Budapest 1984, pp. 77-97). Similarly, David Seyfort Ruegg gives Bhavya's date as c. 500-570 ("The Literature of the Madhyamaka School of Philosophy in India", A History of Indian Literature vol. VII, ed. Jan Gonda, Otto Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden 1981, p. 61). I therefore hardly think that we at all need to mention Bhavya and his works in the context of trying to date ZaMkara. Sincerely, Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sat Jul 22 21:36:48 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 14:36:48 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060270.23782.15061592902240508363.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk writes: > Incidentally, when I looked at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion2.html > what I saw was a Rorschach inkblot. :-) > Actually, Dominik, the poor quality of the photo and the Rorschach inkblot effect may not be accidental. M. Witzel has sent me a jpeg of what we both believe is the original seal, located by its inscription in an excellent photo in a source *other* than Mackay. In a faithful reproduction, it is *obvious* (as it isn't in Jha/Rajaram) that the tablet is broken in the middle, with part of the inscription becoming what appears to the Rorschached eye (if you use their poor reproduction) to be the "head" of the animal in Jha/Rajaram (seen in the link above). Comparison with numerous other broken and unbroken seals in nearby pages demonstrates unequivocally that it belongs to the ubiquitous "unicorn" seal variety. If you take a photo of the original and heighten the contrast in PhotoShop, you can quickly reproduce the Rorschach effects seen in Rajaram. As soon as all sources are in my hands in California -- on Monday morning at the latest -- I will post all the evidence via a link, including my Photo-Shop variations of the original. Rajaram now says (letter sent to a long list of people yesterday, including me), after I questioned him about his source for the "horse seal" that he attaches "no significance" to the horse seal. This is obviously a big turnaround from what he says in his book (quoted in the link above). Rajaram adds that Western scholars are "trying to select, discard and manipulate date [data] to preserve their beliefs. This bespeaks a teological [sic] rather than a scientific mindset. A debate with such people is pointless." The full story of the genesis of the "horse seal" will be posted via weblinks in the next few days. Cheerfully, Steve Farmer From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Sat Jul 22 19:34:56 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 15:34:56 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060259.23782.6270445534698190326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > Factual history can be known only ... There's no such thing, of course. Come on guys! This is History 101 stuff! RB> Well I never wrote the sentence to start with. As far as accuracy of history is concerned: Lets compare the histories of egypt and india in the periods spanning 5000 BC and 500 BC. Would have to say that egyptian history is far more loaded with facts is more accurate etc etc.. Indian history as it stands is not on par with such histories, No point faking. Anyway my point was about the value of comparisions in determining history, not how factually accurate history can be... RB From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jul 22 14:42:27 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 15:42:27 +0100 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5965@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227060251.23782.15038134209251510600.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > Factual history can be known only ... There's no such thing, of course. Come on guys! This is History 101 stuff! -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Sat Jul 22 21:46:11 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 17:46:11 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya ( horse seal ) Message-ID: <161227060272.23782.5222847212244974137.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm getting at. See, e.g., EH Carr's What is History, or RG Collingwood's The Idea of History. In past messages you have distinguished "theories" from "known facts". All that is very good. But what I am getting at is that theory is not distinguished from history in text books at the school level in India. Incidentally, when I looked at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion2.html what I saw was a Rorschach inkblot. :-) The picture is quite poor. the hoof detail in the artists depiction looks suspiciously detailed and looks just like a horse. One wonders if he could make out such detail from a badly eroded seal On the other hand: the genital argument does hold some water :) The tail is also horse like. Have a look at http://www.harappa.com look at the bull and unicorn seals look at the genital area all the seals depict the loose penile flap and the penis. the flap is a characteristic of the brahma breed and is looser and more prominent than other breeds. In any case all cattle have them. artistic depictions of bulls cannot ignore this feature. http://www.caballorojoranch.com/bullpasture.html http://www.diamondaranch.com/3-1.html http://www.cowmans.com/10txcmck.htm http://www.sbarranch.com/839.htm http://www.sbarranch.com/949.htm For horses the genitals are set far behind and are not very visible from a side on view. Of course if there is a bibliographical error maybe the seal itself is fake, right? I have never heard of a horse seal before? heard of a depiction of a horse/onager like thing. From selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM Sat Jul 22 16:51:45 2000 From: selwyn at NTLWORLD.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 17:51:45 +0100 Subject: Sv: Re: The date of Sankara In-Reply-To: <002401bff3cf$3dbadee0$5ccbe182@utkragh> Message-ID: <161227060254.23782.15603037154896498397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET Sat Jul 22 23:58:07 2000 From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 19:58:07 -0400 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060275.23782.8814580546248703026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In reply a previous message of mine, Vidyasankar Sundaresan has written: "Perhaps I can fill in a little detail here, based on personal communication with Kunjunni Raja from three years ago. What is behind this 1991 position is the recognition that many sections of zaMkara's brahmasUtra bhASya are reproduced from earlier works, perhaps the often mentioned vRtti(s). In which case, what is apparently a quote from the bhASya could turn out to be a quote from earlier author(s), and the zaMkara-maNDana question would have to be revisited".... To the best of my knowledge (I have looked both in bhAskara's brahmasUtrabhASyam and the available portion of his bhagavadgItAbhASyam), bhAskaraH neither quotes nor paraphrases the passage from which Kuppuswami Sastri says maNDanaH wove in two sentences (introduction to brahmasiddhi, xlvii), and which Allen Thrasher compares side to side in his dissertation (and on pages 123-124 of his "The dates of MaNDana Mizra and ZaMkara" WKSZ 23(1979) 117-139). I will grant that there is always the possibility that maNDanaH quoted from a pre-zaGkara vRttiH, and would gladly give up the conlusion that maNDanaH knew zaGkara's work, if someone would only come forward with a convincing set of arguments. At this point, however, I believe Kuppusvami Sastri's position still prevails. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 22 20:33:34 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 21:33:34 +0100 Subject: Date of Udhayana Message-ID: <161227060261.23782.10834771726405488834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> nanda chandran wrote: >>Nobody made an effort to enter into a serious discussion with you. >>Perhaps they are all very wise; perhaps they couldn't care less. > >Does netiquette bother Vidhyaji only when he is affected? And I've >hardly seen anything to equal the above - slander on the members of >one list on another list. > teshAM praSaMseyaM nanda na nindA yat tvaM manyase, tvayA sahAvivado hi buddhimatAM buddhimattvam. Vidyasankar From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Sat Jul 22 20:38:17 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 21:38:17 +0100 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5966@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227060263.23782.454320065622419651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > Would have to say that egyptian history is far more loaded with facts is I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm getting at. See, e.g., EH Carr's What is History, or RG Collingwood's The Idea of History. In past messages you have distinguished "theories" from "known facts". But all knowledge of the past is ultimately constructed and is therefore to some extent contingent, and certainly filtered. As we see from Farmer's posting on Rajram's "horse"! Incidentally, when I looked at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion2.html what I saw was a Rorschach inkblot. :-) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sat Jul 22 20:41:56 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 21:41:56 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060265.23782.11291100070869182345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> After looking at : http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion2.html and a picture of an Indian Onager at : http://www.deer.rr.ualberta.ca/library/taxonomy/onager.html the tail of the Onager seems to begin further down its arse than does the tail of the creature in the seal in Mackay 453. An example of how up the horse's rump the tail starts can be seen by examining the pictures of horses at http://www.hughesarabians.com/photo/index.html Whatever the creature is that is shown on the seal in the first URL above, it is not an Indian Onager. -arun gupta From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 23 01:49:10 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 21:49:10 -0400 Subject: The date of Sankara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060279.23782.2723377657439004226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I just finished reading Soundaryalahari by S'ankara for a translation work I am doing for a yogi. The language in soundaryalahari is very similar to the jagannathashTakam that is used in temple at Puri. Some people had put doubts earlier that the jagannathaashTakam was most likely written by SriChaitanya since the AshTakam talks about Radha and also that the temple did not exist in S'ankara's time. After reading Soundaryalahari, the following thoughts comes to mind. 1. S'ankara is indeed the author of jagannathashTakam. 2. Jagannatha did exist in some form in Puri in S'ankara's time. 3. If S'ankara lived around 800AD, the Radha concept goes before Jayadeva. If anyone has thought on these, may enlighten. Best regards, Bijoy Misra On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, Elliot M. Stern wrote: > In reply a previous message of mine, Vidyasankar Sundaresan has written: > > > "Perhaps I can fill in a little detail here, based on > personal communication with Kunjunni Raja from three years > ago. What is behind this 1991 position is the recognition > that many sections of zaMkara's brahmasUtra bhASya are > reproduced from earlier works, perhaps the often mentioned > vRtti(s). In which case, what is apparently a quote from the > bhASya could turn out to be a quote from earlier author(s), > and the zaMkara-maNDana question would have to be revisited".... > > To the best of my knowledge (I have looked both in bhAskara's > brahmasUtrabhASyam and the available portion of his bhagavadgItAbhASyam), > bhAskaraH neither quotes nor paraphrases the passage from which Kuppuswami > Sastri says maNDanaH wove in two sentences (introduction to brahmasiddhi, > xlvii), and which Allen Thrasher compares side to side in his dissertation > (and on pages 123-124 of his "The dates of MaNDana Mizra and ZaMkara" WKSZ > 23(1979) 117-139). > > I will grant that there is always the possibility that maNDanaH quoted from > a pre-zaGkara vRttiH, and would gladly give up the conlusion that maNDanaH > knew zaGkara's work, if someone would only come forward with a convincing > set of arguments. At this point, however, I believe Kuppusvami Sastri's > position still prevails. > From utkragh at HUM.KU.DK Sat Jul 22 21:07:28 2000 From: utkragh at HUM.KU.DK (Ulrich T. Kragh) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 00 23:07:28 +0200 Subject: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060267.23782.7167392435272434836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> L.S.Cousins wrote: >But see: >Ruegg, David Seyfort, "On the Authorship of Some Works Ascribed to Bh?vaviveka/Bhavya," in _Earliest Buddhism and >Madhyamaka_, eds., David Seyfort Ruegg and Lambert Schmithausen, 59-71, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1990. That article certainly shatters what I had dared to say about Bhavya's date. I stand corrected! hA hA putraka nAdhita sugataitAsu rAtriSu / tena tvaM viduSAM madhye paGke gauriva sIdasi // (HitopadeSa) Ulrich T. Kragh University of Copenhagen From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Jul 23 02:41:05 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 03:41:05 +0100 Subject: Similes & Metaphors Message-ID: <161227060282.23782.3833499854114733977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to all those who kindly suggested some leads for my recent enquiry about Indian philosophical similes. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Jul 23 03:50:39 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 04:50:39 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060285.23782.10157959850078389462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I hope I'm not making an ass of myself :-), but the animal in the seal at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion2.html does not look like a donkey -- the tail rules that out. What is at the head is totally unclear in the picture of the seal given. The artist's depiction shows a filled peepal leaf over the head; the seal at best has the outline of such a leaf. Moreover, the hindquarters of the animal in the seal do not match any unicorn that I can find at www.harrapa.com http://www.harappa.com/seal/1.html http://www.harappa.com/seal/10.html http://www.harappa.com/seal/11.html http://www.harappa.com/indus2/145.html http://www.harappa.com/indus2/154.html (the tail is close, however) http://www.harappa.com/indus2/133.html http://www.harappa.com/indus/36.html (is more of a blot than Rajaram's) http://www.harappa.com/indus/25.html http://www.harappa.com/seal/seal2.html http://www.harappabazaar.com/seals3.html http://www.harappabazaar.com/seals2.html http://www.harappabazaar.com/seals4.html (Unicorn seal #3 tail is close) http://www.harappa.com/script/maha4.html (fragment) -arun gupta From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 23 04:56:30 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 04:56:30 +0000 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060287.23782.14445606090577553490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Elliot M. Stern" wrote: >set of arguments. At this point, however, I believe Kuppusvami Sastri's >position still prevails. I would agree. I was planning to go through this material in detail, once I got hold of bhAskara's work, but you've saved me the effort for now! Thanks, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From mahachula1 at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 23 07:23:55 2000 From: mahachula1 at HOTMAIL.COM (Dhammametto Bhikkhu) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 07:23:55 +0000 Subject: prefix-no Message-ID: <161227060277.23782.5088933740970082113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 23 13:38:56 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 09:38:56 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD029B5965@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227060300.23782.6885961582008895743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> (Subrahmanya: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:44:43 CDT) >Factual history can be known only by considering various views. .... RB Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:30:06 -0400 > I have seen the AIT compared with the spanish invasion of south america. >The AMT also reminds me of an - eastward ho, covered wagon scenario like the >settling of the american west. I thought AIT was forbidden here. I will therefore restrict myself here to aspects of cultural change. All comparisons carry only so far. Conditions are never identical in any two settings. As for the eastward-ho covered wagons, I suggest to read W. Rau (even in English, see below) before writing with limited knowledge of the texts. He shows that the Vedic texts say exactly that: covered wagons: wagons trains on the move; 2 days move, one day rest; at night, arranging them in a circle like a snake biting its own tail. Graama means 'wagon train' almost down to Patanjali (Rau in: HOS-Opera Minora vol 2.), who still remembers it. Certainly so during much of the Brahmana period. Why else aaryaavarta? They 'turn around' in their pastoral territory. >Are comparisions scientific? The spanish had guns, canons, armour, steel, >new disases all of which had a drastic effect on the native population >particularly the diseases. It was an interaction of two civilizations >separated by a huge technological gap. The northern neighbours of the meso >americans had barely started agriculture and the region was nowhere as >advanced as europe. The last sentence is patently wrong. There was agriculture up to Dakota and Chicago. And the latter area shows exactly what RB denies: around 1300 the agricultural people in that area reverted to hunting. Due to change of climate (little Ice Age as in Greenland). A new economy, due to ecological changes and influence from more successful (that is: better adapted) neighbors. Exactly what we can deduce from the Rgveda: there is the successful pastoral "Aryan' economy in an area that has only some agriculture (and much less people) left (many Indus people moved eastwards to Haryana and founded new settlements there, as the anti-AIT archaeologist J.Shaffer says); it had a lot more in Indus times; agricultural words in RV that are largely non-Indo Aryan. No wonder that many (not all) local Panjab people took over the new economy (plus language, poetry, ritual, the horse and spoked wheel chariot, etc. etc.) from the economically more succesful and (therefore!) socially higher-status Indo-Aryans of the RV. Obviously, there was some technological gap as well, the Indus people being very good at making beads and water management, etc., and the Indo-Aryans at making chariots (...and suuktas). What's the problem? As I have written here before, you only need one tribe out of Afghanistan who took the wrong turn and stayed in the Panjab instead of returning to the Afghani summer pastures, -- and you start Ch. Ehret's scenario of billiard-ball like innovation and cultural change, which spreads successfully, so that no member of the end of the chain must have any (genetic or other direct) connection with those that started it. In other words, people in the Delhi/Allahabad area were CULTURAL 'Aryans' (cf. Soutwhorth and Kuiper LONG ago!), who had (in)directly taken over "Aryanism" from the original instigators on the Afghani borders. [Most of these data in my 1995-1999 papers, see my web site, below] Ehret's scenario was, of course, developed in the eighties, in Africa. =========== ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Sun Jul 23 10:27:13 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 11:27:13 +0100 Subject: The date of Sankara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060290.23782.13613181919838522128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bijoy Misra writes: >I just finished reading Soundaryalahari by S'ankara for >a translation work I am doing for a yogi. The language >in soundaryalahari is very similar to the jagannathashTakam >that is used in temple at Puri. Some people had put >doubts earlier that the jagannathaashTakam was most likely >written by SriChaitanya since the AshTakam talks about Radha >and also that the temple did not exist in S'ankara's time. The ascription of SaundaryalaharI to Adi S'ankara is itself rather doubtful, since it is not noted before about 14th century. The only reference to a poet within the text itself is quite ambiguous: to a "DraviDa infant" who becomes the best-loved of poets after tasting the milk of the Goddess (v. 75)--which could refer to any one of several South Indian poet-saints, and in any case does not sound like an author talking about himself. Several features within the text itself are thought to suggest a date post 1000 CE: e.g. the fact that the Goddess is described as wearing a nose-ornament (v. 61), and that it refers to nine, not eight, rasas (v. 41, 50). Its teaching has a strongly Tantric flavour, comparable to that of the late Yoga UpaniSads (themselves of doubtful date). See W. Norman Brown (ed. and trans.), The SaundaryalaharI or Flood Of Beauty, Harvard UP, 1958. pp. 25-30. (Well worth a look even if you don't agree with his conclusions, since he reproduces the miniature paintings from two illustrated mss of the poem!) Best wishes-- Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 23 16:43:43 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 12:43:43 -0400 Subject: The date of Sankara In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060303.23782.14304965985267748874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 23 Jul 2000, Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > Bijoy Misra writes: > > >I just finished reading Soundaryalahari by S'ankara for > >a translation work I am doing for a yogi. The language > >in soundaryalahari is very similar to the jagannathashTakam > >that is used in temple at Puri. Some people had put > >doubts earlier that the jagannathaashTakam was most likely > >written by SriChaitanya since the AshTakam talks about Radha > >and also that the temple did not exist in S'ankara's time. > > The ascription of SaundaryalaharI to Adi S'ankara is itself rather > doubtful, since it is not noted before about 14th century. The only > reference to a poet within the text itself is quite ambiguous: to a > "DraviDa infant" who becomes the best-loved of poets after tasting the milk > of the Goddess (v. 75)--which could refer to any one of several South > Indian poet-saints, and in any case does not sound like an author talking > about himself. Several features within the text itself are thought to > suggest a date post 1000 CE: e.g. the fact that the Goddess is described as > wearing a nose-ornament (v. 61), and that it refers to nine, not eight, > rasas (v. 41, 50). Its teaching has a strongly Tantric flavour, comparable > to that of the late Yoga UpaniSads (themselves of doubtful date). > I did notice the nose "muktAmaNidhara" in v.61 and was amused. The text talks of "dramilas'is'u" in v.75. The commentary (translation of Laksmidhara) speaks of the saivite saint TirujnAnasambandhara, with a legend. The rasa description in v.51 mentions eight; s'r^ngAra, kutsana, rosha, vismaya, bhIta, sarasiruha (vIra), smerA, karuNA. The words from the verse. > See W. Norman Brown (ed. and trans.), The SaundaryalaharI or Flood Of > Beauty, Harvard UP, 1958. pp. 25-30. (Well worth a look even if you don't > agree with his conclusions, since he reproduces the miniature paintings > from two illustrated mss of the poem!) > Thank you. I'll check. BM From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Jul 23 12:21:16 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 13:21:16 +0100 Subject: Horse, unicorn, etc. Message-ID: <161227060293.23782.1323426349168896974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 1. Why do we use the word "unicorn" to describe the creature depicted on so many Harappan seals ? The classical unicorn is said to have the body of a horse; and the Harappan ones do not. 2. What is the Harappan creature ? Is it merely a bull in profile, thereby showing only a single horn ? Or is it a creature with some mythical significance ? 3. Why does Wendy O'Flaherty in her translation of RV 1.116 mention that "the donkey is sometimes said to pull the Asvins' chariot" and "the she-wolf for whome Rajrasva slaughtered the rams is said to have been one of the donkeys of the Asvins in disguise" ? Is "Asvin" a word the translator inserted there ? Would not Asvins have horses, not donkeys ? Or does the word "Asvin" predate the association of asva with horse ? 4. Could Indo-Aryans have translated the Harappan cult of the "unicorn" into the cult of the horse ? Do we know of horse sacrifices from contemporary IE speakers ? 5. Paul Manansala wrote some time ago : Equus sivalensis may be gone but domesticated horses with sivalensis dentition, pre-orbital depression and 17 pairs of ribs are still found in South and Southeast Asia. O'Flaherty in translation of RV 1.162 has the axe cutting through the thirty four ribs -- any significance here ? Or are the extra pair of ribs in equus caballus not really noticeable in any such axe cut ? Sorry, but a fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer. -arun gupta From yaap at XS4ALL.NL Sun Jul 23 12:13:57 2000 From: yaap at XS4ALL.NL (Jaap Pranger) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 14:13:57 +0200 Subject: taqdiir kaa sikandar Message-ID: <161227060295.23782.6632929169014182253.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee said: >RB> Bucephalus is supposed to have been buried in pakistan. >Is there any site? FWIW, Sikandar Cunningham's best guess for the site of the 'city of Bukephala' was Jalalpur, situated plm 42 kms to the SW of Jhelum, or plm 22 kms S. of Jogi-Tila (Gorakhnath-ka-Tila, the earlier Balnath-ka-Tila, identified with Plutarch's 'Hill of the Sun'.) Alexander Cunningham, The Ancient Geography of India, 1871, Reprint Indological Bookhouse 1979, pp 134-149 My memory doesn't serve me well in case later researchers repeated attempts to follow Alexander's footsteps. BTW. Rajarshi, IMHO you should use quotes (>). See your Posting 22462 of July 22. -- From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Jul 23 13:07:10 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 18:37:10 +0530 Subject: Medical texts Message-ID: <161227060298.23782.6334724011041299780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, I am familiar with references to the therapetic uses of meat especially beef and buffalo meat in Caraka, Susruta and Vagbhata. I wish to know whether this tradition continued in later Indian medical texts/commentaries (E.G. Arunadatta, Dalhana, Cakrapanidatta). With regards, D.N.Jha From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Jul 23 23:54:47 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 19:54:47 -0400 Subject: SKT on-line now permanenent Message-ID: <161227060308.23782.9858262171417350394.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The biweekly Sanskrit broadcast from Cologne/Germany (Deutsche Welle, part of their Hindi program) is now CONTINOUSLY available from their Sanskrit web page, not just on every second Monday via the Hindi page. http://kleist.dwelle.de/sanskrit/ or directly at http://kleist.dwelle.de/sanskrit/audio.html So, our letters have taken effect. However, they are still busy with the life of Max Mueller (3 more sections to come, I think), due to his 100th death anniversary. Good + clear listening... Useful for class. -------------------------------------- ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Jul 23 23:27:50 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 00 23:27:50 +0000 Subject: frog and princess(?) Message-ID: <161227060306.23782.7460270222406018109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >But it doesn't look *that* recent, in terms of the proportions of the >female figure, the style of her headgear etc. The owner of the statue, who is in Florida, says the following - ---------------------------------------------------- I bought it from a young lady at a local flea market. It is small, perhaps 7" high, made from a white metal (slag, pot metal, or lead?) that has been poured into a mold. There is great detail of a very toothed frog, with a female sitting upon the left knee. It weighs 3+ lbs. in air, 20% less in water; has much age to it, and appears to have been out of doors most of its existence. It is hollow, in that it is from a pouring; indeed upon closer examination it looks like it was made from 2 pouring. It is far from crude, with much detail, especially on the female. It is possible that it was broken off from its stand. I had originally thought of it as some kind of a fanciful gargoyle. It is significantly weathered and I would guess at 100 years or more. Her right hand, forearm, elbow and upper arm rests upon the right shoulder of the frog. She sits upon his knee with his left hand just behind where she sits. She seems to lean into the crook of his left forearm, elbow, and upper arm. --------------------- Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 24 16:05:26 2000 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 09:05:26 -0700 Subject: provenance of a verse Message-ID: <161227060317.23782.1606374641756520530.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Could anyone tell me the source of this verse: yadupateH kva gatA mathurA purI raghupateH kva gatottara-kozalA iti vicintya kuruSva manaH sthiraM na sad idaM jagad ity avadhAraya Thank you for your help. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Jul 24 17:56:39 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 10:56:39 -0700 Subject: [Re: Viveka & Rta/Satya] OR WHATEVER Message-ID: <161227060324.23782.15987251945094790848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: >>As for varta in "Aryavarta".. A region is defined by its boundary or >perimeter(circle). Dont see why "varta" needs to be connected to a wagon >encampment. I would assume that "aryavarta" connotes a different context >and scale than a travelling party of bullock carts. Maybe I am missing >something. Certainly. For a starter, it is 'Avarta' and not 'varta'[ AryAvarta and not "Aryavarta"]. I guess we have to read more [and relevantly] before we assume a position. Best wishes, Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Jul 24 17:28:35 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 13:28:35 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060319.23782.1289555208537800928.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MW> I thought AIT was forbidden here. I will therefore restrict myself here to aspects of cultural change. All comparisons carry only so far. Conditions are never identical in any two settings. As for the eastward-ho covered wagons, I suggest to read W. Rau (even in English, see below) before writing with limited knowledge of the texts. He shows that the Vedic texts say exactly that: covered wagons: wagons trains on the move; 2 days move, one day rest; at night, arranging them in a circle like a snake biting its own tail. Graama means 'wagon train' almost down to Patanjali (Rau in: HOS-Opera Minora vol 2.), who still remembers it. Certainly so during much of the Brahmana period. Why else aaryaavarta? They 'turn around' in their pastoral territory. RB> Sounds compelling but with some reservations. Covered bullock carts are still a common mode of transport in India and were used for inter city trade by merchants in historic times and for long distance travel. Nothing uniquely central asian about them. Harappans and every one else in india would surely would be using such things especially during a crisis when all belongings need to be moved. See film footage of the partition. As for varta in "Aryavarta".. A region is defined by its boundary or perimeter(circle). Dont see why "varta" needs to be connected to a wagon encampment. I would assume that "aryavarta" connotes a different context and scale than a travelling party of bullock carts. Maybe I am missing something. RB> Are comparisions scientific? The spanish had guns, canons, armour, steel, >new disases all of which had a drastic effect on the native population >particularly the diseases. It was an interaction of two civilizations >separated by a huge technological gap. The northern neighbours of the meso >americans had barely started agriculture and the region was nowhere as >advanced as europe. MW> The last sentence is patently wrong. There was agriculture up to Dakota and Chicago. And the latter area shows exactly what RB denies: around 1300 the agricultural people in that area reverted to hunting. Due to change of climate (little Ice Age as in Greenland). A new economy, due to ecological changes and influence from more successful (that is: better adapted) neighbors. RB> Come on was north america as technological economically and agriculturally advanced as europe? They had just dabbled in agriculture at best and thats all I meant. Did european society revert to hunting around 1300. Did the arapaho , sioux nations have an economy based on agricutural surplus and industry which let them build and support cities, navies etc? The tribes of the north western america were just getting economically organized and establishing trade networks when he europeans came in and disrupted them. Quite late dont you think? MW> What's the problem? As I have written here before, you only need one tribe out of Afghanistan who took the wrong turn and stayed in the Panjab instead of returning to the Afghani summer pastures, -- and you start Ch. Ehret's scenario of billiard-ball like innovation and cultural change, which spreads successfully, so that no member of the end of the chain must have any (genetic or other direct) connection with those that started it. RB> The problem is that this sort of domino effect is fine when it comes to religious and even cultural change. But linguistic change cannot be that drastic or rapid. If we assume that an IE language had an earlier presense in India then it could also explain quicker adoption of external IE customs. Not necessary implying that india was the PIE homeland. RB From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Mon Jul 24 12:30:11 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 13:30:11 +0100 Subject: frog and princess(?) In-Reply-To: <20000723232750.82596.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227060314.23782.4291141667800610205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The materials sound unconventional for an image intended for worship, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not authentic. It could be part of a piece of shrine decoration, for example. It's not possible to decide on date, authenticity etc without actually handling the object, so I can only suggest that the owner takes the piece to the nearest museum with a good Indian collection for an opinion. (Perhaps list members can advise which this is?) As the owner says, it is far from crude, and clearly deserves following up. I am still trying to find out about the iconography. I rather like Swaminathan Madhuresan's suggestion of a Monsoon rain god. In any case, there must surely be some sort of water/fertility connection. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: > >The owner of the statue, who is in Florida, says the >following - > >---------------------------------------------------- >I bought it from a young lady at a local flea market. > >It is small, perhaps 7" high, made from a white metal >(slag, pot metal, or lead?) that has been poured into >a mold. There is great detail of a very toothed frog, >with a female sitting upon the left knee. It weighs 3+ >lbs. in air, 20% less in water; has much age to it, and >appears to have been out of doors most of its existence. > >It is hollow, in that it is from a pouring; indeed >upon closer examination it looks like it was made from >2 pouring. It is far from crude, with much detail, >especially on the female. > >It is possible that it was broken off from its stand. >I had originally thought of it as some kind of a >fanciful gargoyle. It is significantly weathered and I >would guess at 100 years or more. > >Her right hand, forearm, elbow and upper arm rests upon >the right shoulder of the frog. She sits upon his knee >with his left hand just behind where she sits. She seems >to lean into the crook of his left forearm, elbow, and >upper arm. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Jul 24 17:47:50 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 13:47:50 -0400 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060322.23782.9763325730351084455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> RB> Covered bullock carts are still a common mode of transport in India and were used for inter city trade by merchants in historic times and for long distance travel. Nothing uniquely central asian about them. Or is there. Are the covered wagons as described differentiable from harappan carts, wagons etc. From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Mon Jul 24 09:29:14 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 14:59:14 +0530 Subject: Indus Valley Civilization, geometrical knowledg Message-ID: <161227060311.23782.7108679902400186114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think During Caspers has discussed the astronomical significance of Mohenjodaro "stones". Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: Rajarshi Banerjee To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Saturday, July 22, 2000 2:27 AM Subject: Re: Indus Valley Civilization, geometrical knowledg >G.F.Dales in his article "Sex and Stone at Mohenjo-Daro (Frontiers of > the Indus Civilization. Ed. by B.B.Lal and S.P.Gupta. Sir Mortimer > Wheeler Commemoration Volume. New Delhi, 1984, pp. 109-115) > reconsidered traditional interpretation of some specific stone > artefacts as symbols of lingam and yoni. In Dales's opinion there > are no grounds for this "erotic symbolism" interpretation. Instead he >referred > to the hypothesis by M.Jansen who had suggested that the stone > rings might have been used in measuring angles and making astronomical > calculations. > > >RB> a suspented cone could be used as a plumb line. The ring could be used >for marking a spot vertically below the point of suspension? > >What about the circular platforms are they always of the same diameter? Are >the layout of the bricks in a standard repeated form? If so that could >signify an understanding of the relationship between the radius and >perimeter of a circle. From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jul 24 22:13:00 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 15:13:00 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060329.23782.12447006209528836813.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html The other day I posted preliminary evidence on a bogus "horse seal" that Jha and Rajaram make much of in their new book entitled _The Deciphered Indus Script_ (2000). Earlier, M. Witzel and I had shown how "evidence" of horses in Harappa was manufactured by Jha and Rajaram through supposed decipherments of IVC script using methods letting you generate almost any needed text out of any inscription. Rajaram and Jha go to much trouble in their book to present an "Artist's reproduction" of the supposed Mohenjo-daro horse seal, but the reproduction of the seal impression itself that they give is suspiciously blurred (for evidence, see the images in the link given with this post). They've also made it extremely difficult to track down the original of the seal due to a major miscitation in their bibliography. This morning, following a little detective work, I finally located the original of the seal in Plate XCV of Vol. II of Ernest Mackay, _Further Excavations of Mohenjo-daro_ (1938), which is NOT cited in the bibliography in their book. Over the weekend, Michael Witzel also found another photo of the same seal impression (or a strikingly similar one), carrying *exactly* the same inscription, in one of Asko Parpola's works (see again the attached link). As suspected, the supposed impression of a "horse seal" is, in fact, the impression of the kind of unicorn bull seal found ubiquitously in Mohenjo-daro. The original photo shows that at least 1/2 of the impression is split and broken, cutting off the whole of the animal's middle torso and head. If you observe the resulting image shown in Jha/Rajaram's badly blurred reproduction as a Rorschach inkblot test (as suggested by Dominik Wujastyk), part of the broken inscription turns into the animal's head! (I originally mistook it for a deer's head with antlers.) Rajaram (who was claims responsibility for writing the book) makes much of supposed anomalies in the animal's genitals, which he says demonstrates that the animal is a horse and not a unicorn bull. The quality of the original photo in Mackay (1938) isn't good enough to show any details in the genital area, but the other photo of the same seal impression (or very similar seal impression associated with the same inscription), turned up by Professor Witzel, shows the bull unicorn's genitals *exactly* where they are supposed to be. In the provided links, I offer a series of photos that follow the story of Rajaram's phoney "horse seal" from start to finish. In the last series, I show how I have manufactured an even more credible "horse seal" than Rajaram by using a scanned image of the same broken seal coupled with creative use of the "contrast" control in PhotoShop. http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html Debunking bogus claims like this is extremely time consuming. Rajaram's handiwork should be publicized as widely as possible -- especially in light of his repeated claims in the Indian press that "Western scholars" intentionally manipulate evidence. My best, Steve Farmer From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Jul 25 01:06:10 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 18:06:10 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060336.23782.16299261697081851203.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Nanda Chandran writes: > The original photo by Mackay though chipped at the edge > does seem to have, at least partially, a neck and the head > portion of the animal. No neck, no head -- neither. Half the torso of the unicorn is also gone. The crack takes off the *entire* head and neck. Those cracks only *start* to look like a neck if you distort the contrast in the image, as seen in the Jha/Rajaram book. http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html Chandran continues: > Also if you notice in the photo supplied by M Witzel the belly stretches out > straight without curving into the genital area. > But in Mackay's photo the belly of the animal has already curved - seemingly > towards the frontal part of the body. What we find in Mackay is a *severely* damaged impression of the unicorn bull seal. Moreover, you are ignoring the most obvious identifying information in the photos, which I've already pointed out: The INSCRIPTIONS ARE IDENTICAL on the two photos (Mackay 453 and Parpola M-272a). I should hardly have to remind you that you will *not* find identical inscriptions anywhere on Harappan seals associated with different animal emblems! The fact that the breaks in the seals apparently come in exactly the same place also suggests that they may be the same seal impression photographed in different light. But note again, in any case: the identity of the two images (= unicorn bull) is clearly indicated by the fact that the identical inscriptions on the same seal. Irrefutable evidence. Both seals are of bull unicorn, as Mackay, Parpola, and apparently I. Mahadevan already recognized. The broken impression in Mackay only *starts* to look like a horse (with a neck and head -- missing entirely in the original) when you heighten the contrast in the reproduced image to hide the fact that the seal impression is broken. Nota bene: You *cannot* tell in Jha/Rajaram that the impression is broken, which is dishonest. And since their bibliographical reference is wrong, they make it very difficult for anyone to discover this. I spent the better part of two days trying to find the original of this seal. I was only able to find it since I have access to a good research library. Most of the readers of Jha/Rajaram back in India don't have that privilege. > And it would > be difficult to place the genitals in a spot after the belly > curve - at least I've seen no bull or cow with such a genital > positioning. Again, the original in Mackay is cracked right at this spot, helping to create the illusion of "curvature." The crack also comes, by the way, very close to the spot where the genitals are stuck (as we see in Prof. Witzel's impression) in many scores of other unicorn bull seals. NB again: We are talking here about genitals on mythical unicorns, not on any real-life "bull or cow." > And your ability to use photoshop to the advantage of the > horse theory only seems to strengthen the Rajaram's and > Jha's case! Come again?? I used PhotoShop to show how you can take an image of an obviously broken seal in the original (Mackay) that lacks a head or neck and turn it through creative use of contrast into something vaguely looking like a horse (or deer)! And you think that "strengthen[s] ...Rajaram's and Jha's case"?! Interesting reasoning indeed! http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html Bijoy Misra writes: > His claim of decipherment may have > some merit. He claims to have "read" scripts > on 2000 seals and if the reading is scientific, > he deserves credit. Does he err 2000 times? Go back to the Indology archives and read my posts and Michael Witzel's posts on the subject -- esp. on the Dholavira signpost. His supposed decipherments have already been thoroughly debunked: The method that he uses is so flexible that you can get virtually *any* reading you want out of the texts. Steve Farmer From saf at SAFARMER.COM Tue Jul 25 02:58:49 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 19:58:49 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060346.23782.14065954976333942224.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> If you are going to quote me, Subrahmanya, please don't misspell words or garble my syntax: It looks as if I'm responsible for the errors and not you. E.g.: > "Jha Rajaram make much of a supposedly anamalous genital placement...." To make or repeat a few obvious points about the photos: http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html The original photo in Mackay, which is tiny and of poor quality, is very badly lighted and heavily shadowed right where it is cracked. The crack in the impression and a *very* heavy shadow come together exactly where we expect the genitals to be on unicorn bull seals. The genitals are either there in the shadow or are broken off, just like the missing head and neck and front part of the torso. I could create a huge lineup of genital-depleted unicorn bulls that look almost *exactly* like this one by taking photos of seal impressions into PhotoShop and lopping off the genitals in the same spot as the crack found here, or by adding shadows to the images -- wasting a lot more time with this idiocy -- but what's the point? To whit: - The inscription on the broken seal impression is EXACTLY the same as the inscription on the unicorn bull impression in Parpola (identified by Witzel), where we *can* see the genitals. I challenge anyone to find even ONE Harappan seal impression displaying the same inscription but different animals. - The tail of the bull unicorn shown on this inscription doesn't look even *faintly* like the tails found on any known species of horse. But it does look *exactly* like the tails seen on many dozens of unicorn bull seal impressions found scattered widely at Mohenjo-daro -- including the seal impression pointed out by M. Witzel that carries *exactly* the same Harappan inscription. Claims that this broken seal impression -- carrying the same inscription as another unicorn bull impression -- provides evidence of a "horse seal" (in which the only exemplum conveniently has the head and neck missing) demonstrate the ridiculous lengths to which OIT proponents are willing to go to manufacture evidence where none exists. (Rajaram's easily debunked "decipherments" of Harappan provide a further demonstration; note that NOT ONE of Rajaram's supporters has attempted to defend him against Witzel's technical analysis of those decipherments.) I'll make you a deal, Subrahmanya, since I want to move on to genuine research questions: Find just ONE expert on IVC recognized in the West who is willing to call this the impression of a horse seal and I'll pay you $1,000. I pledge this -- in total seriousness -- in front of the whole List. The image is bogus, and the data presented in Rajaram's book on it -- including the suspiciously poor reproduction (which doesn't even reveal that the impression is broken!), the curiously miscited source, and so on -- is sloppy at best, and maybe something worse. I'm at my quota at this point for Indology posts, and can say no more! Regards, Steve Farmer From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 25 01:12:20 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 20:12:20 -0500 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060338.23782.16863482292772708338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >nanda chandran wrote : > >Also if you notice in the photo supplied by M Witzel the belly stretches >out >straight without curving into the genital area. >But in Mackay's photo the belly of the animal has already curved - >seemingly >towards the frontal part of the body. And it would >be difficult to place the genitals in a spot after the belly >curve - atleast I've seen no bull or cow with such a genital >positioning. So I doubt if both the pictures are of the same animal. The >inscriptions alone cannot testify to this equation. > >And your ability to use photoshop to the advantage of the >horse theory only seems to strengthen the Rajaram's and >Jha's case! > Exactly - I suggest that list members should take a second look at the difference between #453 and #772-A Farmer & Witzel have infact strengthened Rajaram/Jha's case with their Photoshop abilities :)) Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 25 01:30:14 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 20:30:14 -0500 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060341.23782.8355320076490818168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Steve Farmer in his attack against Dr.Rajram on his website writes: "Jha Rajaram make much of a supposedly anamalous genital placement in 453 claiming that the animal on the seal is supposedly a horse and not a bull unicorn. But Michael Witzel has found a better photo of the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ same seal impression or a strikingly similiar one (note ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(#1) identical inscription) in A.Parpola Corpus of Seals and Inscriptions 1991, p.63,#772-A. Here we find the genitals exactly where expected in a bull unicorn seal (cf. seal #773a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(2) on far right)" #1. Note how Mr.Farmer first says "same seal impression" and then adds "or a strikingly similiar one". #2. Mr. Farmer writes "Here we find the genitals exactly where expected" - by implication admitting that the the other seal does NOT have "the genitals exactly where expected" - Thus strengthening Rajarams arguments. Regards, Subrahmanya. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jul 25 00:49:48 2000 From: bmisra at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Bijoy Misra) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 20:49:48 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" In-Reply-To: <397CBF2E.7B1C5CDA@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227060333.23782.15272907203002565143.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Being only a curious observer in the field I went through various sites this evening. Rajaram's site definitely sounds political. (why is it "sword of truth"?) He should just point the evidence than point fingers. He probably has an audience. His claim of decipherment may have some merit. He claims to have "read" scripts on 2000 seals and if the reading is scientific, he deserves credit. Does he err 2000 times? Now whether he stretches on the "horse seal" to create news is another matter. It's too flimsy an evidence to establish a theory. By using strong language like "bogus" in this forum is playing into the politics. We can respectfully disagree. I will like to hear from the knowledeable sources if Rajaram's decipherment has merit. I am an imaging scientist. I know some technology behind such studies and recognitions. I will appreciate any comments. Bijoy Misra On Mon, 24 Jul 2000, Steve Farmer wrote: > http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html > > The other day I posted preliminary evidence on a bogus "horse > seal" that Jha and Rajaram make much of in their new book > entitled _The Deciphered Indus Script_ (2000). Earlier, M. Witzel > and I had shown how "evidence" of horses in Harappa was > manufactured by Jha and Rajaram through supposed decipherments of > IVC script using methods letting you generate almost any needed > text out of any inscription. > > Rajaram and Jha go to much trouble in their book to present an > "Artist's reproduction" of the supposed Mohenjo-daro horse seal, > but the reproduction of the seal impression itself that they give > is suspiciously blurred (for evidence, see the images in the link > given with this post). They've also made it extremely > difficult to track down the original of the seal due to a major > miscitation in their bibliography. > > This morning, following a little detective work, I finally > located the original of the seal in Plate XCV of Vol. II of > Ernest Mackay, _Further Excavations of Mohenjo-daro_ (1938), > which is NOT cited in the bibliography in their book. Over the > weekend, Michael Witzel also found another photo of the same seal > impression (or a strikingly similar one), carrying *exactly* the > same inscription, in one of Asko Parpola's works (see again the > attached link). > > As suspected, the supposed impression of a "horse seal" is, in > fact, the impression of the kind of unicorn bull seal found > ubiquitously in Mohenjo-daro. The original photo shows that at > least 1/2 of the impression is split and broken, cutting off the > whole of the animal's middle torso and head. If you observe the > resulting image shown in Jha/Rajaram's badly blurred reproduction > as a Rorschach inkblot test (as suggested by Dominik Wujastyk), > part of the broken inscription turns into the animal's head! (I > originally mistook it for a deer's head with antlers.) > > Rajaram (who was claims responsibility for writing the book) > makes much of supposed anomalies in the animal's genitals, which > he says demonstrates that the animal is a horse and not a > unicorn bull. The quality of the original photo in Mackay (1938) > isn't good enough to show any details in the genital area, but > the other photo of the same seal impression (or very similar seal > impression associated with the same inscription), turned up by > Professor Witzel, shows the bull unicorn's genitals *exactly* > where they are supposed to be. > > In the provided links, I offer a series of photos that follow the > story of Rajaram's phoney "horse seal" from start to finish. In > the last series, I show how I have manufactured an even more > credible "horse seal" than Rajaram by using a scanned image of > the same broken seal coupled with creative use of the "contrast" > control in PhotoShop. > > http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html > > Debunking bogus claims like this is extremely time consuming. > Rajaram's handiwork should be publicized as widely as possible -- > especially in light of his repeated claims in the Indian press > that "Western scholars" intentionally manipulate evidence. > > My best, > Steve Farmer > From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Jul 25 04:31:13 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 21:31:13 -0700 Subject: [Conch and bangle] Message-ID: <161227060350.23782.16636354143772388925.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >I would appreciate if the list members could identify any IA word which >means "bangle" as well as "conch". Thanks in advance. >Regards >S. Palaniappan Bengali zA~kh [conch] and zA~khA [bracelet made of conch-shell]. Oriya zaGkha [conch] and zaGkhA [bracelet made out of conch-shell]. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Mon Jul 24 20:47:44 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 21:47:44 +0100 Subject: Viveka & Rta/Satya Message-ID: <161227060326.23782.7539439124459863076.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > RB> Come on was north america as technological economically and > agriculturally advanced as europe? They had just dabbled in agriculture at > best and thats all I meant. The evidence from the "mound culture" along the Mississipi River would seen to indicate otherwise. The main settlement of Cahokia is estimated to have had a population of 20,000 + inhabitants with evidence of vast trading networks. I cannot imagine a city of 20,000 that survived for several hundred years having been supported by merely "dabbling in agriculture". The city is thought to have been abandoned around the C13th CE due to climatic change and agricultural over-exploitation and the inhabitants then reverted to simpler pastoral and nomadic lifestyle. Best wishes, Stepehen Hodge From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Tue Jul 25 02:23:29 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 22:23:29 -0400 Subject: Trubner publications available again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060343.23782.12926449065635127318.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Routledge has republished the Trubner Oriental Series. See >www.reference.routledge.com/trubner > I wonder if you took at look at the prices they are asking. Who would pay such a ransom for these books? It's really outrageous! The prices being asked by such publishers--think Curzon here too, not to mention our friends at Brill-- are unjustified by any criteria. For reprints the total costs are printing, binding and advertising. No royalties, no editorial costs. As those who potentially publish with such pirates, I think we should express our discontent... (not that it will change anything...). Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jul 25 03:53:44 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 00 23:53:44 -0400 Subject: Conch and bangle Message-ID: <161227060348.23782.10920173331209294591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would appreciate if the list members could identify any IA word which means "bangle" as well as "conch". Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 25 00:09:04 2000 From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 00:09:04 +0000 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060331.23782.405996663878910936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I took a look at the site with the pictures. The original photo by Mackay though chipped at the edge does seem to have, atleast partially, a neck and the head portion of the animal. Also if you notice in the photo supplied by M Witzel the belly stretches out straight without curving into the genital area. But in Mackay's photo the belly of the animal has already curved - seemingly towards the frontal part of the body. And it would be difficult to place the genitals in a spot after the belly curve - atleast I've seen no bull or cow with such a genital positioning. So I doubt if both the pictures are of the same animal. The inscriptions alone cannot testify to this equation. And your ability to use photoshop to the advantage of the horse theory only seems to strengthen the Rajaram's and Jha's case! BTW I don't think this attack on Rajaram and Jha is correct given that none of the defenders of their position, are on the list anymore. And given the weakness of the argument one should be careful about using terms such as "bogus" etc. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jul 25 05:40:42 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 01:40:42 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's Horse & genitals Message-ID: <161227060352.23782.314637951045498778.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajaram, on his high horse, does not let me sleep. I reproduce a message sent to me by S. Farmer since he is over quota, and I have saved mine -- just in case: Given the importance Rajaram attaches to the one elusive Mohenjo Daro's horse and his genitals, and given his emphatic statement about "western, colonialist-missionary scholars" whose attitudes misrepresent Indian history, take another look... Any calm and objective observer can see that "the horse's " neck and head is just a break line in the seal and that the artist's impression of a horse is just the phantasy of Rajaram et al., not to speak of the waxing and waning linga. Note also some other details such as the tail with a thick lump at the bottom... Anyone who has been hit by a cow's tail (e.g., when milking) will prefer to be hit by the rather feathery one of a horse... which is not seen with this "horse". In addition, there is another seal, same picture but with clear bull's Lingam, M-1034, which S.Farmer or I will publish tomorrow. Now we have TWO copies of the same seal with the same *bull* + same inscription. But no horse. Time for Rajaram to clime down from his horse and admit that he has been had, has imagined something based on a bad representation, and has built a whole theory on it. No matter how many more refernces to horses he will find in his "translations". As has been shown, you can read anything, even Urdu, into them by using his 'method'. As I now have his book, thanks to S. Farmer (not yet in our library), more on this non-method soon. Dr. Rajaram (or Jha) are of course invited to state their case here. If he chooses not to do so (he has email), we can all draw our own conclusions. Here is S. Farmer: xxxxxxxxxxxx Apparently, I can't put this genital question behind me! I wrote: > The original photo in Mackay, which is tiny and of poor quality, > is very badly lighted and heavily shadowed right where it is > cracked. The crack in the impression and a *very* heavy shadow > come together exactly where we expect the genitals to be on > unicorn bull seals. The genitals are either there in the shadow > or are broken off, just like the missing head and neck and front > part of the torso. Michael Witzel (a noted expert on genitals in Harappan seals) has reminded me of a critical point that I forgot to make: Different lighting conditions make genitals on photos of seals and seal impressions come and go mysteriously. At http://www.safarmer.com/pico/delusion3.html I showed (middle of page) one photo for comparison purposes of Parpola's seal #772 (of a unicorn bull, carrying the same inscription as the so-called "horse seal" of Jha/Rajaram) showing it had genitals. Below, at http://www.safarmer.com/pico/genitals.html I demonstrate that there is *another* photo of the *same* seal in Parpola that shows no sign of the genitals at all! Now you see them, now you don't: They are as elusive as horses (or horse thieves) in Harappa! End of story. ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 25 11:12:19 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 07:12:19 -0400 Subject: High price reprints by Western publishers Message-ID: <161227060361.23782.13545549185337828292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote: >>Routledge has republished the Trubner Oriental Series. See >>www.reference.routledge.com/trubner >> > >I wonder if you took at look at the prices they are asking. Who would >pay such a ransom for these books? It's really outrageous! The prices >being asked by such publishers--think Curzon here too, not to mention >our friends at Brill-- are unjustified by any criteria. For reprints >the total costs are printing, binding and advertising. No royalties, >no editorial costs. As those who potentially publish with such >pirates, I think we should express our discontent... (not that it >will change anything...). > > > I have just seen the price for a reprint of Mayrhofer's KEWA from a western publisher as $995.00 !! Contrast this with the low prices offered by Indian publishers. I got the 4 vol. set of Turners CDIAL for $175.00. I got the 5 vol. set of Brugmann's Comparative Grammar for $75.00 (including airmail shipping!!). I got a 10 vol. set of the Taittiriya Samhita for $75.00. I've seen the 19 vol. set of Griersons Linguistic Survey offered for $416.00. etc. etc. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Tue Jul 25 14:12:31 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 07:12:31 -0700 Subject: [Re: Conch and bangle] Message-ID: <161227060369.23782.12681740036857612706.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "B.Bhattacharya" wrote: Dear List member, >conch ib Bengali is sankha (pronounced as shonkho) not zakha as Mr. Panda >has written I forgot to mention the tatsama word zaGkha [pronounced zoGkho]also used in Bengali. But the rest of the information is correct. I said zA~kh for conch and zA~khA for the bracelet, but not 'zakha' as you write in your post.[Are you familiar with the transliteration I am using ? Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From b.bhattacharya at FREELER.NL Tue Jul 25 07:31:21 2000 From: b.bhattacharya at FREELER.NL (B.Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 09:31:21 +0200 Subject: Conch and bangle Message-ID: <161227060355.23782.5613639980410130901.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List member, conch ib Bengali is sankha (pronounced as shonkho) not zakha as Mr. Panda has written). Bangles made out of conch shells are called Shankha (in Bengal). These bangles are a must for the bride in a traditional Hindu wedding in some parts of eastern India, together with red bangles known as pola, (from pravala), but made of plastic. Bhaswati Bhattacharya From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Jul 25 13:32:06 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 09:32:06 -0400 Subject: Conch and bangle Message-ID: <161227060365.23782.12853643100769650372.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to Jogesh Panda and Bhasvati Bhattacharya for their information. Any such usage in Marathi, Gujarati or Sindhi? Thanks in advance. Regards S. Palaniappan From b.bhattacharya at FREELER.NL Tue Jul 25 07:32:47 2000 From: b.bhattacharya at FREELER.NL (B.Bhattacharya) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 09:32:47 +0200 Subject: Conch and bangle Message-ID: <161227060357.23782.5421384479560005716.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan To: Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:53 AM Subject: Conch and bangle > I would appreciate if the list members could identify any IA word which > means "bangle" as well as "conch". Thanks in advance. > > Regards > S. Palaniappan > From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Jul 25 14:08:35 2000 From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Carlos Lopez) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 10:08:35 -0400 Subject: High price reprints by Western publishers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060367.23782.6685992528751558788.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> **************************************************************************** ** ye paakazaMsaM viharanta evair ye vaa bhadraM duuSayanti svadhaabhiH ahaye vaa taan pradadaatu soma aa vaa dadhaatu nirRter upasthe (RV 7.104.9) Those who keep apart the man who praises sincerely or those who willingly cause the fortunate man to become corrupt let Soma place them before Ahi or place (them) in the lap of annihilation **************************************************************************** ** Dr. Carlos Lopez Department of Religion Florida State University **************************************************************************** ** > -----Original Message----- > From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Harry > Spier > Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 7:12 AM > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: High price reprints by Western publishers > > > Jonathan Silk wrote: > > >>Routledge has republished the Trubner Oriental Series. See > >>www.reference.routledge.com/trubner > >> > > > >I wonder if you took at look at the prices they are asking. Who would > >pay such a ransom for these books? It's really outrageous! The prices > >being asked by such publishers--think Curzon here too, not to mention > >our friends at Brill-- are unjustified by any criteria. For reprints > >the total costs are printing, binding and advertising. No royalties, > >no editorial costs. As those who potentially publish with such > >pirates, I think we should express our discontent... (not that it > >will change anything...). > > > > > > > > I have just seen the price for a reprint of Mayrhofer's KEWA from > a western > publisher as $995.00 !! > > Contrast this with the low prices offered by Indian publishers. > I got the 4 vol. set of Turners CDIAL for $175.00. > I got the 5 vol. set of Brugmann's Comparative Grammar for $75.00 > (including > airmail shipping!!). > I got a 10 vol. set of the Taittiriya Samhita for $75.00. > I've seen the 19 vol. set of Griersons Linguistic Survey offered for > $416.00. > etc. etc. > > > > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Jul 25 16:14:46 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 12:14:46 -0400 Subject: reply vivek .. Message-ID: <161227060371.23782.4026941908996592054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>As for varta in "Aryavarta".. A region is defined by its boundary or >perimeter(circle). Dont see why "varta" needs to be connected to a wagon >encampment. I would assume that "aryavarta" connotes a different context >and scale than a travelling party of bullock carts. Maybe I am missing >something. JP> Certainly. For a starter, it is 'Avarta' and not 'varta'[ AryAvarta and not "Aryavarta"]. I guess we have to read more [and relevantly] before we assume a position. RB> thanks for the correction and pointing out my dumb mistake but it does not detract from the point. An Avartan would refer to and be along a boundary which encircles the land. The notion of boundary and teritorry is quite fundamental and does not need to start out with wagon trains. It can be an indepedent concept. SH> The evidence from the "mound culture" along the Mississipi River would seen to indicate otherwise. The main settlement of Cahokia is estimated to have had a population of 20,000 + inhabitants with evidence of vast trading networks. I cannot imagine a city of 20,000 that survived for several hundred years having been supported by merely "dabbling in agriculture". The city is thought to have been abandoned around the C13th CE due to climatic change and agricultural over-exploitation and the inhabitants then reverted to simpler pastoral and nomadic lifestyle. RB> I am making a broad generalisation when I say "dabble" ofcourse there will be exceptions . I agree that dabble is not a term used in academic journals. The cahokia settlement is on par with sumerian cities( some of which had 40000 people ) and their trade networks. Such reversals of fortune of cities founded on agriculture happened in the old world several times and happened, before it took place in the new world. Its a question of attaining critical mass. Curious about what is meant by pastoral life style, were any animals domesticated? huskies, pig like species.? JP> BTW. Rajarshi, IMHO you should use quotes (>). See your Posting 22462 of July 22. Sorry as you can see I am not a specialist and have limited time to look up and access refs. I quote from stray memory. Hope they are of marginal use atleast. I am assuming that bukephala is only referred to in greek records and not in indo/pak records. regards RB From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Jul 25 08:40:33 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 14:10:33 +0530 Subject: frog and princess(?) Message-ID: <161227060359.23782.4459413108400883173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Valerie J Roebuck wrote: > The materials sound unconventional for an image intended for worship, but > that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not authentic. It could be part of > a piece of shrine decoration, for example. > > It's not possible to decide on date, authenticity etc without actually > handling the object, so I can only suggest that the owner takes the piece > to the nearest museum with a good Indian collection for an opinion. > (Perhaps list members can advise which this is?) > > As the owner says, it is far from crude, and clearly deserves following up. > I am still trying to find out about the iconography. > > I rather like Swaminathan Madhuresan's suggestion of a Monsoon rain god. > In any case, there must surely be some sort of water/fertility connection. *** please see below *** > > > Valerie J Roebuck > Manchester, UK > > Vidyasankar Sundaresan writes: > > > >The owner of the statue, who is in Florida, says the > >following - > > > > >Her right hand, forearm, elbow and upper arm rests upon > >the right shoulder of the frog. She sits upon his knee > >with his left hand just behind where she sits. She seems > >to lean into the crook of his left forearm, elbow, and > >upper arm. Just a thought : Frog (mu"ndaka.h) represents jeevaatmaa or aatmaa inVedas. The female figure may represent Shushumna or Kundalini. Resting on the left hand of frog and at the same time contact with the right shoulder of frog, is indicative of this. In non-tantrik terms, she would be Vaak. For all this is worth! -- Himanshu From hart at POLBOX.COM Tue Jul 25 12:21:30 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 14:21:30 +0200 Subject: vastupuruSa drawing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060363.23782.7322089720983154533.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 14:42 2000-06-16 +0100, J. Daniel White wrote: >Can anyone recommend a source for detailed line drawings and/or paintings of >vastupurusa as an anthropomorphic form? I've seen a few designs of the >vastupurusa in this form on class charts, etc. in India but have not seen >them in any published form. You may look out Adrian Snodgrass's _Architecture, Time and Eternity. Studies in the Stellar and Temporal Symbolism of Traditional Buildings_, (Aditya Prakashan New Delhi, 1990, vols I-II) for the drawing, and, hopefully, relevant bibliographical references. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Tue Jul 25 17:19:39 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 18:19:39 +0100 Subject: frog and princess(?) In-Reply-To: <397D5280.29BC17EB@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227060373.23782.604263062825462725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> H. B. Dave writes: > >Just a thought : >Frog (mu"ndaka.h) represents jeevaatmaa or aatmaa inVedas. The female figure >may represent Shushumna or Kundalini. Resting on the left hand of frog and at >the same time contact with the right shoulder of frog, is indicative of this. >In non-tantrik terms, she would be Vaak. > >For all this is worth! This is intriguing. Do you happen to have a reference for it? Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 26 01:08:23 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 21:08:23 -0400 Subject: Indological reprint wishlist Message-ID: <161227060379.23782.17512492312895466695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since I've been buying books recently I've been thinking about reprints. Again and again you come across statements in an Indological book like "xyz by abc is the classic study on zzz". More often than not the book is out of print. Sometimes you can find a used copy on an internet book search service and sometimes you can't. I would be interested in seeing list members reprint wishlist. Perhaps this might stimulate some publishers. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 26 01:15:58 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 21:15:58 -0400 Subject: Correction to Indological reprint wishlist Message-ID: <161227060382.23782.14671570796088802672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I accidently hit the send button before the e-mail was complete. This is complete message. Apologies Since I've been buying books recently I've been thinking about reprints. Again and again you come across statements in an Indological book like "xyz by abc is the classic study on zzz". More often than not the book is out of print. Sometimes you can find a used copy on an internet book search service and sometimes you can't. I would be interested in seeing list members reprint wishlist. Perhaps this might stimulate some publishers. My wishlist is: Indo-Aryan, from the Vedas to Modern Times by Jules Bloch, translated from the french by Alfred Master. My list did contain The Sanskrit Language by T. Burrow, and Vedic Grammar by A.A. Macdonnell (not his grammar for students but his larger one) but I've just learned that the first is about to be reprinted and the second is now available. Best wishes, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Jul 25 21:41:47 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 21:41:47 +0000 Subject: The date of Sankara Message-ID: <161227060377.23782.10431986032326997450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >After reading Soundaryalahari, the following thoughts >comes to mind. > >1. S'ankara is indeed the author of jagannathashTakam. It seems likely, from the general alankAra similarities, that the same poet wrote jagannAthAshTaka and saundaryalaharI. But it would take a good expert in kAvya to make an informed judgment about this. >2. Jagannatha did exist in some form in Puri in S'ankara's time. Anandagiri, the author of TIkAs on Sankara's commentaries, salutes purushottama, the lord of nIlAdri. A definite reference to Puri. But he makes no reference to Radha, or even generally to Gopi women. There is a prakaraNa text, attributed to Sankara, called prabodhasudhAkara, which does talk of Radha and the gopa-strIs. Whether in Sankara's times or not, Vishnu is a definite presence at Puri, by Anandagiri's time (most likely, 13th century). It is possible that some of the later Puri Sankaracaryas wrote the above hymns and texts. One doesn't have to wait till the time of Caitanya. In any case, see various articles in "The Cult of Jagannath and the Regional Tradition of Orissa", ed. Anncharlott Eschman, Hermann Kulke and G. C. Tripathi, Manohar Publications, Delhi, 1978. >3. If S'ankara lived around 800AD, the Radha concept goes before > Jayadeva. See Barbara Stoler Miller's translation of Gitagovinda (1977), as also her essay in a 1980 collection, edited by Gowry Kuppuswami and M. Hariharan (Trivandrum: College Book House). Re: the no. of rasas in saundaryalaharI, I have always been puzzled by how the term sarasiruha-saubhAgya-jananI in verse 51 refers to the rasas. If sarasiruha translates to vIra rasa (how?), shouldn't saubhAgya likewise translate to SAnta rasa? This would bring the number up to 9, making it consistent with "navarasa" in verse 50. What does lakshmIdhara say about it? Re: "Tantric" influence in works attributed to Sankara, I think people have to be willing to question what constitutes Tantra and what doesn't, and also whether the currently assumed dates are valid for these texts. Also, the assumption that the same person could not have written a "vedAntic" text and also a "tAntric" text needs to be questioned. There is a "mantra-SAstra" text called prapancasAra, attributed to Sankara. Andre Padoux thinks it could be a composition of vidyASankara (13th-14th century), in Vac: The concept of the word in selected Hindu Tantras. However, note that amalAnanda, the early 13th century author of kalpataru (commentary on vAcaspatimiSra's bhAmatI), already attributes prapancasAra to Sankara. Whoever wrote the prapancasAra, it seems quite likely that he was a "SankarAcArya". Best wishes, Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Jul 25 20:59:19 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 21:59:19 +0100 Subject: High price reprints by Western publishers Message-ID: <161227060375.23782.12819701442671850184.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I have just seen the price for a reprint of Mayrhofer's KEWA from a western > publisher as $995.00 !! > Contrast this with the low prices offered by Indian publishers. > I got the 4 vol. set of Turners CDIAL for $175.00. > I got the 5 vol. set of Brugmann's Comparative Grammar for $75.00 (including > airmail shipping!!). > I got a 10 vol. set of the Taittiriya Samhita for $75.00. > I've seen the 19 vol. set of Griersons Linguistic Survey offered for > $416.00. Yes, it is really an eye-opener when comparing prices of Indian editions of books with Western editions. But to put it into context, perhaps one should go and live in India on Indian salary levels -- then those prices will not seem so cheap ! Though Indian booksellers are no doubt happy that us Western scholars buy their books, I get a feeling that an element of neo-colonial exploitation is at work. What I would be more concerned about is the fact that the kind of academic publishers mentioned (Brill, Curzon etc) usually pay no advances to the poor author -- OK if you have a tenured academic job but not if you are an independent scholar. More exploitation ? Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Jul 26 05:07:37 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 01:07:37 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's horse-bull, better pics Message-ID: <161227060388.23782.9378801648787046861.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For those intrested to take a still closer look at Rajaram's horse (p. 177, 162 sq. in his new book, The deciphered Indus script, New Delhi 2000), AND who have a *good* internet connection (LARGE file!) take a look at http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Rajaram's-Bull.html with photos scanned from A. Parpola's great photographic collections of Indus seals, plates etc. (1) First there is the actual "horse seal", published by S. Farmer a few days ago (starting out from Mackay 453), here scanned in even greater detail & resolution (scroll down a little!) . It is : K. Koskenniemi & A. Parpola, A Concordance to the texts in the Indus script, Helsinki 1982, no. 2453 and in Parpola's facsimile edition: Corpus of Indus seals and inscriptions. 2. Collections in Pakistan, Helsinki 1991 M-772 = 2453, DK 6664, MD 742, JL 884 , a: P 642 (2) ANOTHER seal, with the neck and head broken off as well, but with the same inscription (containing only the rimmed vessel & horned man); however, with the hind parts of the bull CLEARLY visible, Linga included. i.e. : K. Koskenniemi & A. Parpola, A Concordance to the texts in the Indus script, Helsinki 1982, no. 2467 and in Parpola's facsimile edition: Corpus of Indus seals and inscriptions. 2. Collections in Pakistan, Helsinki 1991 p. 103 no. M-1034 = Mohenjo Daro, M 1034= 2467, DK 5582, MD 778, JL 840, a: P 694 ------- The comparison should indicate that we have the same seal, same inscription, and that the second one clearly indicates a bull, not a horse. That throws just a tiny doubt on Rajaram's reading of the broken (!) inscription of which one sign at least is missing: pipal leaf - fork - horned man - rimmed vessel which he reads, against the normal order of signs, from right to left, as: arko hasva (sic!) or arko ha azva meaning " Sun indeed like the horse" Again, one wonders about the missing Sandhi and Visarga (the book has a lot to say about Sandhi and Visarga!!) and about the role that the co-author Dr. N. Jha --announced as "one of the world's foremost Vedic scholars and palaeographers"-- had in writing this book. All of this quite apart from the fact, apparently of little importance, that the sentence should read, if there was ANY connection indeed with the picture on the seal, as Rajaram assumed: ".... is a bull" ! But then, Vedic is flexible and the word 'go' means at least 21 things... So why not: azva 'bull', even while disagreeing with Dr. Kalyanaraman's "ass"? Cheers, MW ======================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Jul 26 10:43:38 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 06:43:38 -0400 Subject: Indological reprint wishlist Message-ID: <161227060395.23782.12331408971634598550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan Houben wrote: >Where is A.A. Macdonnell's Vedic Grammar (the "larger one") available? amazon.com for $38.00 (hardcover) or directly from the publishers Munshiram Manoharlal. Best wishes, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Jul 26 10:52:41 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 06:52:41 -0400 Subject: position announcement Message-ID: <161227060397.23782.15124894501095095944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following posting is being forwarded to your listserv or mailing list from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact SOAS directly for any further information. David Magier http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai ======================== POSITION: Lectureship in Ancient Indian Religions (SOAS) SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square London, WC1H 0XG (UK) DEPARTMENT OF THE STUDY OF RELIGIONS Lectureship in Ancient Indian Religions Salary: UK Pounds 20,750 to 25,250 p.a. inclusive Vacancy 00/63 Applications are invited for a newly established Lectureship in Ancient Indian Religions within the Department of the Study of Religions. The successful candidate will be well-grounded in Vedic Studies with expertise in classical Indology. In addition to teaching courses in Vedic Religion, the appointee will be expected to contribute more generally to teaching and supervision in Indian religions. Evidence of high-quality published research and of competence in Sanskrit are essential. Application forms are available from the Personnel office, School of Oriental and African Studies, at the address above (Tel: 0207 898 4144, Fax: 0207 898 4149, e-mail address: personnel at soas.ac.uk). All applications must be sent directly to the Personnel Department. Overseas candidates may apply directly by letter supported by a full curriculum vitae and the names, addresses, telephone and fax numbers and email addresses of three referees. Closing date: Friday 8th September 2000 SOAS is an equal opportunities employer and welcomes applications from the disabled, ethnic minorities and women. From paramita at DNAI.COM Wed Jul 26 16:12:51 2000 From: paramita at DNAI.COM (Rev. Heng Sure) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 09:12:51 -0700 Subject: Texts on Bowing and Prostrations as Religious Practice Message-ID: <161227060405.23782.11766885790376053686.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello, I am an American Buddhist monk finishing my Doctorate at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. My topic is bowing in Chinese Buddhist repentance liturgies. I need any information on Indian sources that discuss bowing. I would like some help in locating both Hindu and Indian Buddhist texts that discuss bowing and making prostrations as part of religious practice. Sanskrit and Pali sources would be useful, and also translations of texts into Tibetan and European languages. I would appreciate any references to secondary literature on the subject. Thank you in advance. Namaste, Heng Sure -- Rev. Heng Sure paramita at dnai.com Berkeley Buddhist Monastery www.drba.org 2304 McKinley Ave. (510) 848-3440 (phone) Berkeley, CA USA 94703 (510) 548-4551 (fax) From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Wed Jul 26 05:07:09 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 10:37:09 +0530 Subject: inverted commas Message-ID: <161227060386.23782.3936696822881673429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> When any statement is placed in inverted commas, the assumption is that it is being reproduced exactly. Any comment added by the quoter should be placed in square brackets. If any statement is being referred to from memory,one should say so,. One could ffor example say I am paraphrasing, or recalling from memory. Rajesh Kochhar ******************************************************************************* Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Jul 26 01:25:36 2000 From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 11:25:36 +1000 Subject: Machine-readable Urdu materials Message-ID: <161227060384.23782.16714506011764411912.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have received this enquiry for Urdu materials. Unfortunately I can't help. If anyone else can, please reply directly to the enquirer. >>Sender: ayesha at columbia.edu >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:17:32 -0500 >>Subject: urdu texts needed >> >>Dear Sir(s) or Madam(s): >> I am conducting a study of the Urdu language and need large >>amounts of machine-readable Urdu text. Is there any way I can >>purchase a CD filled with about a year's worth of Urdu text for >>my project (perhaps a year's worth of newspapers)? Or, do you know of >>any way I can obtain the material I need? Please respond. Thank you! >>Sincerely, >>Ayesha Abdul-Quader From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Wed Jul 26 09:39:08 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 11:39:08 +0200 Subject: Indological reprint wishlist Message-ID: <161227060392.23782.16626594758297942168.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> B. Delbrueck, Altindische Syntax, Halle a/d S. 1888 would in my view deserve a reprint. It was already reprinted in 1968 (Darmstadt, Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft) but is now apparently out of stock. Where is A.A. Macdonnell's Vedic Grammar (the "larger one") available? Jan Houben -----Original Message----- From: Harry Spier To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 3:03 AM Subject: Correction to Indological reprint wishlist >I accidently hit the send button before the e-mail was complete. This is >complete message. Apologies > >Since I've been buying books recently I've been thinking about reprints. >Again and again you come across statements in an Indological book like "xyz >by abc is the classic study on zzz". More often than not the book is out >of print. Sometimes you can find a used copy on an internet book search >service and sometimes you can't. I would be interested in seeing list >members reprint wishlist. Perhaps this might stimulate some publishers. > >My wishlist is: >Indo-Aryan, from the Vedas to Modern Times by Jules Bloch, translated from >the french by Alfred Master. > >My list did contain The Sanskrit Language by T. Burrow, and Vedic Grammar by >A.A. Macdonnell (not his grammar for students but his larger one) but I've >just learned that the first is about to be reprinted and the second is now >available. > >Best wishes, > > > > > > >Harry Spier >371 Brickman Rd. >Hurleyville, New York >USA 12747 > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Wed Jul 26 17:34:39 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 12:34:39 -0500 Subject: Texts on Bowing and Prostrations as Religious Practice Message-ID: <161227060407.23782.7029702392767586400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: Rev. Heng Sure >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2000 11:12 AM >Subject: Texts on Bowing and Prostrations as Religious Practice > > Sanskrit and Pali sources would be useful, and also translations of > texts into Tibetan and European languages. All of the major religious groups in India have a large collection of texts called Agamas that give detailed descriptions of every aspect of religious practice. In the Vaishnava Pancaratra Agama, for example there are, theoretically, 108 of these texts. Unfortunately most of them, although in Sanskrit, have never been even transcribed into to Devanagari and are still in Telegu script. Only two or three have been translated into English. In addition to this, organizations like the University of Veda and Agama (run by the Chinna Jeeyar Swami and his organization) in Andhra Pradesh publish books on more specific topics that draw from several Agamas. These too are mostly in Telegu script. Probably the most important and most inclusive of the Pancaratra Agamas is the Padma SamhitA that is published in Sanskrit/Devanagari by Pancaratra Parisodhana Parisad, Madras. Also H. Daniel Smith published a couple of summary and descriptive type books on the Pancaratra Agamas. Hope this helps, Claude Setzer cssetzer at mum.edu From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Wed Jul 26 11:19:13 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 13:19:13 +0200 Subject: Varaahamihira quotation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060399.23782.4699559340855204282.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Balabhadra in his Horaaratna quotes the following verse from Varaaha(mihira): yad upacitam anyajanmani zubhaazubha.m tasya karma.na.h paktim / vya?jayati zaastram etat tamasi dravyaa.ni diipa iva // I have not been able to locate this verse either in the B.rhajjaataka or the B.rhatsa.mhitaa. Does anyone recognize it? (References to similar verses, linking astrology with karman, are also very welcome.) Thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Jul 26 17:53:48 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 13:53:48 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's horse-bull, better pics Message-ID: <161227060409.23782.6278934188438108208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The first picture is a unicorn 771. I did not find 453 ?? Anyway 772A and 772a are also relevant and carry the same script symbols. looking at 772A It looks like the penis is just a part of the crack. The animal could be a unicorn but the crack has effectively circumcised it ( the seal does come from pakistan ). Or maybe there is none where we are looking. The bovine tail with a tuft at the end in 772a is not clearly defined as in other seals and not visible in 772A. This can be attributed to erosion but the hoof detail might belie that. Its inconclusive and just might be that of a horse. If 1034 does indeed have the same symbols then its a clincher the animal is a unicorn / bovine. But two of the script symbols match reducing the probability somewhat.The other seals are more damaged. Also there are no other horse seals so going by probability its more likely that the animal is a bull. I am assuming ofcourse that there is always a one to one correspondence between script symbol sequences and the pictorials as SAF has said. There may be better copies to be unearthed. The presence of the horse does not really does not bolster any one scenario. I would be surprised if the IVC showed absolutely no evidence of horse bones even if their population was low. RB. From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE Wed Jul 26 13:12:08 2000 From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 14:12:08 +0100 Subject: Correction to Indological reprint wishlist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060402.23782.18134542762299249177.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier writes: > Since I've been buying books recently I've been thinking about > reprints. Again and again you come across statements in an > Indological book like "xyz by abc is the classic study on zzz". > More often than not the book is out of print. Sometimes you can > find a used copy on an internet book search service and sometimes > you can't. I would be interested in seeing list members reprint > wishlist. Perhaps this might stimulate some publishers. Libraries have the problem that the paper of publications of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century is already very "brittle". So reprints of many indological works of this period is highly desirable. But you have to take into account the (different) copyright laws. That means, one cannot publish blindly all and everything without checking if it is possible to do so. > My wishlist is: > Indo-Aryan, from the Vedas to Modern Times by Jules Bloch, > translated from the french by Alfred Master. > > My list did contain The Sanskrit Language by T. Burrow, and Vedic > Grammar by A.A. Macdonnell (not his grammar for students but his > larger one) but I've just learned that the first is about to be > reprinted and the second is now available. Indeed, MacDonell's Vedic grammar from 1910 was recently reprinted by Munshiram Manoharlal (ISBN: 81-215-0946-7). Peter Wyzlic -- Peter Wyzlic Indologisches Seminar Universitaet Bonn From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Wed Jul 26 06:50:22 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 14:50:22 +0800 Subject: caturanga Message-ID: <161227060390.23782.14473096631176999536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> One of my students needs some information for a thesis-work: What is the connection between Indian caturanga and chinese chess (xiangqi)? Thanks for any information Ulrike Niklas From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Wed Jul 26 21:40:30 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 00 22:40:30 +0100 Subject: Rajaram's bogus "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060413.23782.15968220595340078708.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Great detective work by Professor Farmer ! It was clear that the "horse seal" had an unusual length x breadth; and it is clear now that this is because the seal was broken. The genitalia are still not clear; but it is amply clear that the head of the "horse" is really a visual effect caused by the broken edge of the seal. Without being an expert on decipherment of anything, my thoughts are -- Decipherment stands or falls on internal logic. Dr. Rajaram's work ( minus all the rhetoric) shows the non-obvious fact that a couple of thousand of short code strings can be mapped to meaningful phrases if the decipherment rules are lax enough. That is, it is conceivable that Harappans did use a system with loose rules, like the proposed decipherment. But then there is no way for us to establish such a decipherment as true. If we had a long passage of code, then loose rules might be proveable, because I think it is highly unlikely that a coherent message will emerge from wrong decipherment rules applied to such a passage. However, I believe the longest Harappan code string found is 26 symbols long. Incidentally, what is that string, and what does Dr. Rajaram read in it ? -arun gupta From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Jul 27 07:00:18 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 08:00:18 +0100 Subject: caturanga In-Reply-To: <200007270314.AA00101@lapc01.la.numazu-ct.ac.jp> Message-ID: <161227060417.23782.13400149043780211532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I recall reading that, more recently, the British board game "Ludo" was modelled on Caturanga. Certainly (from the appearance of the latter in 18-19 century miniatures) they look very similar. Does anyone know if this is true? >>What is the connection between Indian caturanga and chinese chess (xiangqi)? >> > >Chinese chess is said to be one of offspring of Indian chess as well as >the western chess. >It is also the case with Korean and Japanese ones, although the way of >spread is not clear. > >The largest Japanese dictionary, "Nihon Kokugo Dai Jiten" (Shougakkan >1976) explains that >"xiangqi" is a transliteration of "caturanga". (q.v. "shougi" --- >"xiangqi" is pronounced as >"shougi" in Japanese and the character "jiang", which means a general or >commander in chief, >has taken place of "xiang", which means an elephant. By the way "qi" means >"go", a board game >of Chinese origin, or something like that. ) >This explanation is based on Kindaichi Kyousuke's "Shougi Meigi Kou" (On >the name and meaning >of shougi) published in 1910 (in Japanese). > >Prof. Itoh Tomoatu of Sinology at Hokkaido University denies the >'transliteration' theory on the >ground of phonetical difference between the two words, and has it that the >name "xiangqi" derives >from the pieces of 'elephant (xiang)' in the game. See Itoh Tomoatu, >'Shougi Tangen' (The >Tracing of Origin of Japanese Chess), "Shougi Journal", 1984 (in Japanese). > >---- >Nozawa Masanobu >E-mail: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester UK From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Thu Jul 27 09:38:30 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 10:38:30 +0100 Subject: Varaahamihira quotation In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000726131913.007b89a0@pop.lu.se> Message-ID: <161227060419.23782.11053353936677112946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An earlier one: yA pUrvakarmaprabhavasya dhAtrI dhAtrA lalATe likhitA pras'astiH tAM s'Astram etat prakaTaM vidhatte dIpo yathA vastughane 'ndhakAre. MInarAja, VRddhayavanajAtaka I.3 (c. 4th century CE) Martin Gansten writes: >Balabhadra in his Horaaratna quotes the following verse from Varaaha(mihira): > >yad upacitam anyajanmani zubhaazubha.m tasya karma.na.h paktim / >vya?jayati zaastram etat tamasi dravyaa.ni diipa iva // > >I have not been able to locate this verse either in the B.rhajjaataka or >the B.rhatsa.mhitaa. Does anyone recognize it? (References to similar >verses, linking astrology with karman, are also very welcome.) Dr Valerie J Roebuck Manchester UK From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Jul 27 15:09:38 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 11:09:38 -0400 Subject: chess Message-ID: <161227060421.23782.4315937821055521685.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following title discusses the origin of chess. As I recall the author derives the Indian and Iranian games from Chinese games. LC Control Number: 97091802 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Li, David H., 1928- Main Title: The genealogy of chess / David H. Li. Cover Title: Hsiang ch`i chia p`u Published/Created: Bethesda, Md. : Premier Pub. Co., c1998. Description: 383 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. ISBN: 0963785222 Notes: Includes bibliographical references (p. 354-366) and index. Subjects: Chess--History. Chinese chess--History. LC Classification: GV1318 .L515 1998 Dewey Class No.: 794.1/09 21 CALL NUMBER: GV1318 .L515 1998 Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From kekai at JPS.NET Thu Jul 27 18:52:56 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 11:52:56 -0700 Subject: Texts on Bowing and Prostrations as Religious Practice Message-ID: <161227060411.23782.7184626531701667346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Rev. Heng Sure" wrote: > > Hello, > > I am an American Buddhist monk finishing my Doctorate at the Graduate > Theological Union in Berkeley, California. My topic is bowing in > Chinese Buddhist repentance liturgies. I need any information on > Indian sources that discuss bowing. I would like some help in > locating both Hindu and Indian Buddhist texts that discuss bowing and > making prostrations as part of religious practice. > > Sanskrit and Pali sources would be useful, and also translations of > texts into Tibetan and European languages. > > I would appreciate any references to secondary literature on the subject. > > Thank you in advance. > > Namaste, > > Heng Sure > > -- > Rev. Heng Sure paramita at dnai.com > Berkeley Buddhist Monastery www.drba.org > 2304 McKinley Ave. (510) 848-3440 (phone) > Berkeley, CA USA 94703 (510) 548-4551 (fax) -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From nozawa at LA.NUMAZU-CT.AC.JP Thu Jul 27 03:14:32 2000 From: nozawa at LA.NUMAZU-CT.AC.JP (Nozawa Masanobu) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 12:14:32 +0900 Subject: caturanga In-Reply-To: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB067FC899@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <161227060415.23782.8137185156089833212.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >What is the connection between Indian caturanga and chinese chess (xiangqi)? > Chinese chess is said to be one of offspring of Indian chess as well as the western chess. It is also the case with Korean and Japanese ones, although the way of spread is not clear. The largest Japanese dictionary, "Nihon Kokugo Dai Jiten" (Shougakkan 1976) explains that "xiangqi" is a transliteration of "caturanga". (q.v. "shougi" --- "xiangqi" is pronounced as "shougi" in Japanese and the character "jiang", which means a general or commander in chief, has taken place of "xiang", which means an elephant. By the way "qi" means "go", a board game of Chinese origin, or something like that. ) This explanation is based on Kindaichi Kyousuke's "Shougi Meigi Kou" (On the name and meaning of shougi) published in 1910 (in Japanese). Prof. Itoh Tomoatu of Sinology at Hokkaido University denies the 'transliteration' theory on the ground of phonetical difference between the two words, and has it that the name "xiangqi" derives from the pieces of 'elephant (xiang)' in the game. See Itoh Tomoatu, 'Shougi Tangen' (The Tracing of Origin of Japanese Chess), "Shougi Journal", 1984 (in Japanese). ---- Nozawa Masanobu E-mail: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp From stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Jul 27 15:27:02 2000 From: stone_catend at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dr Anthony P Stone) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 16:27:02 +0100 Subject: Varaahamihira quotation Message-ID: <161227060424.23782.10068932133146744924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Martin Gansten wrote on Wed, 26 Jul 2000 > Balabhadra in his Horaaratna quotes the following verse from > Varaaha(mihira): > > yad upacitam anyajanmani zubhaazubha.m tasya karma.na.h paktim / > vya=F1jayati zaastram etat tamasi dravyaa.ni diipa iva // > > I have not been able to locate this verse either in the B.rhajjaataka or > the B.rhatsa.mhitaa. Does anyone recognize it? (References to similar > verses, linking astrology with karman, are also very welcome.) It is Laghu Jaataka 1.3. Similar is V.riddha Yavana Jaataka 1.3 Cf.- B.rihatsa.mhita [BS] 85.5 [anyajanmaa ...]; - Bha.t.totpala on BS 45.3 (quoting Garga: tato'parcaaro ...); - on B.rihajjaataka 1.3 [& text], quoting "Yavanezvara" (= Sphujidvaja, Yavana Jaataka 43.11-13); - Atharvaveda Parizi.s.ta,2.1.2-5; - Ga.ne.sa Daivaj~na's Vivaahadiipika commentary on Vivaaha-v.rindavana: see his extended treatment on 1.3; - Yaj~navalkya m.riti 3.162-163; 1.349-351; - Atharva Jyoti.sa 157-161. [My transliteration may be defective in places!] Tony Stone From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jul 28 04:22:36 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 21:22:36 -0700 Subject: [buffalo sacrifice] Message-ID: <161227060432.23782.1097438509331739412.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor D N Jha wrote: Dear List Members, I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed = or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide = relevant information/references? Sincerely, D.N.Jha=20 Buffaloes were sacrificed until recently [late 70s] by the DumbAls or DumAls of Sonepur and Baud in the State of Orissa, though not in what might be called a temple. These animals were/are sacrificed at the shrine of KhambezvarI or StambhesvarI [also caled MAhezvarI by them]. References are in the pre-1947 Gazateers [ Sorry, I dont have the bibliographical details]. H. Kulke's Jagannath Cult book also has references to buffalo sacrifice of the DumAls [again, no exact bibliography at this timebv]. Best wishes, Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Jul 28 04:51:02 2000 From: jogeshpanda at NETSCAPE.NET (Jogesh Panda) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 00 21:51:02 -0700 Subject: [Re: caturanga] Message-ID: <161227060437.23782.17187816093334503395.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Richard Barz wrote: I think that Ludo- if it is the same as the American game Pacheesi- is modelled on the Indian game CaupaR, which was supposed to be especially liked by Krishna. Richard Barz Australian National University I have no idea what the American game Pacheesi looks like, but the Indian games Pacheesi and CaupaR are two different games. The Pacheesi [or Pachisi from pachis < paJcaviMSa]has twenty five houses [or squares] on a borad [or floor] drawn with five parallel lines across and five parallel lines horizontal. It is played by four players with four pawns [or tamarind seeds, date seeds or betel nuts]. These pawns are called goTi-s, possibly from pebbles that were earlier used in such games. For example, in the game of "bAgh-bakri". The player whose pawns reach the twenty fifth house first wins. The CaupaR also is a board [or floor] game. The CaupaR can be played by as many players as can be seated around the table or on the mat or durry. The board [or floor] plan is like an oversized Plus [+] sign. The four hands [or sides] have each sixteen [or more]houses or squares. The game is played with dice [or cowrie shells]. Hope this information helps. Best wishes. Jogesh Panda ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Fri Jul 28 08:55:21 2000 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (beitel) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 04:55:21 -0400 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060445.23782.4531022688288895508.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This Cenci buffalo sacrifice is also written up by me in a 1984 issue of the journal _Uomo_, an issue on meat ed. by Christiano Grottanelli. >===== Original Message From Indology ===== >An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, Tamilnadu. >It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place >(Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is >a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... > > > >I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and >photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. > > > >Kind regards, > >Ulrike > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] >Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: buffalo sacrifice > > >Dear List Members, > >I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >relevant information/references? > >Sincerely, > >D.N.Jha From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR Fri Jul 28 04:47:48 2000 From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 06:47:48 +0200 Subject: [buffalo sacrifice] Message-ID: <161227060434.23782.3587959437984588427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >???From "Srimad Bhagavatam" by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, purport of Canto 5, Chapter 9, txt 15:: "According to the Vedic sastras, everything must be done according to regulative principles, but the thieves and rogues devised their own process for killing an animalistic man. The tamasic sastras give instructions for the sacrifice of an animal like a goat or buffalo before the goddess Kali, but there is no mention of killing a man, however dull he may be. This process was manufactured by the dacoits themselves. Even at this time there are many sacrifices being conducted without reference to the Vedic scriptures. For instance, in Calcutta recently a slaughterhouse was being advertised as a temple of the goddess Kali. Meat-eaters foolishly purchase meat from such shops, thinking it different from ordinary meat and taking it to be the prasada of goddess Kali. The sacrifice of a goat or a similar animal before the goddess Kali is mentioned in sastras just to keep people from eating slaughterhouse meat and becoming responsible for the killing of animals." Jogesh Panda wrote: > Professor D N Jha wrote: > Dear List Members, > I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed = > or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide = > relevant information/references? > Sincerely, > D.N.Jha=20 > > Buffaloes were sacrificed until recently [late 70s] by the DumbAls or DumAls > of Sonepur and Baud in the State of Orissa, though not in what might be called > a temple. These animals were/are sacrificed at the shrine of KhambezvarI or > StambhesvarI [also caled MAhezvarI by them]. References are in the pre-1947 > Gazateers [ Sorry, I dont have the bibliographical details]. H. Kulke's > Jagannath Cult book also has references to buffalo sacrifice of the DumAls > [again, no exact bibliography at this timebv]. > > Best wishes, > Jogesh Panda > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Jul 28 03:29:10 2000 From: dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN (Professor D N Jha) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 08:59:10 +0530 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060429.23782.14870547155596535891.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide relevant information/references? Sincerely, D.N.Jha From kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Fri Jul 28 14:03:42 2000 From: kradhikary at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Kamal Raj Adhikary) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 09:03:42 -0500 Subject: [buffalo sacrifice] In-Reply-To: <20000728042236.23099.qmail@www0k.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227060456.23782.13257078904177193287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Professor D N Jha's question and the answer following it show that baffalo sacrifice is not so common in India. However, in Nepal baffalo sacrifice is very common, particularly during the annual Durga Puja. Hundreds of baffaloes are sacrificed in the temples of Goddess Durga all over the country. Buffaloes are also included in the 'panchavali', or 'five sacrifices' which are given to Durga, (Bhagavati, Maheshvari), and also to Lord Bhairav. Best, Kamal >Professor D N Jha wrote: >Dear List Members, >I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed = >or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide = >relevant information/references? >Sincerely, >D.N.Jha=20 > > >Buffaloes were sacrificed until recently [late 70s] by the DumbAls or DumAls >of Sonepur and Baud in the State of Orissa, though not in what might be called >a temple. These animals were/are sacrificed at the shrine of KhambezvarI or >StambhesvarI [also caled MAhezvarI by them]. References are in the pre-1947 >Gazateers [ Sorry, I dont have the bibliographical details]. H. Kulke's >Jagannath Cult book also has references to buffalo sacrifice of the DumAls >[again, no exact bibliography at this timebv]. > >Best wishes, >Jogesh Panda > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at >http://webmail.netscape.com. _________________________________________________ Where are the songs of Spring? Ay, where are they? Think not of them, thou hast thy music too,___ From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Fri Jul 28 09:41:20 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 09:41:20 +0000 Subject: buffalo sacrifice In-Reply-To: <2C9E855D35B9D01198190020AFFBE8CB067FC8A9@exs04.ex.nus.edu.sg> Message-ID: <161227060442.23782.1558655635886722077.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place during DurgApUjA (on vijayadazamI) at several zAktapIThas in Eastern India, e.g. in Guwahati - KAmAkhyA mandir. -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From KKadiri at VISA.COM Fri Jul 28 17:32:19 2000 From: KKadiri at VISA.COM (Kadiri, Krishna) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 10:32:19 -0700 Subject: dharma shaastraas Message-ID: <161227060463.23782.13952525235688157013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Respectable members, I have a couple of questions - 1. smR^itis and other dharma shaastras are said to derive their strength by being ancilliary to the Vedas. How true is this? S.Dasgupta, in his five volumes on Indian philosophy, denies this (Sorry, I don't remember the volume no.). I could find references for the caste system in some upanishads, but nothing more. 2. I am sure you'll be aware of a practice in India, where a woman is not touched/not allowed into kitchen during only the first three nights of her menstrual periods. Is there any reference to this practice in any smriti/shruti? What is surprising that this 'pollution' is considered valid only for 3 nights. Manu smR^iti says that the husband should 'visit' the wife on the 4th day, but he does not say anything about the code of conduct on the earlier 3 days. Another interesting reference to this is in Kalidaasa's Uttara kalAmR^ita (apparently a book on Indian astrology)- he reasons that for the first three nights, the woman's psyche is quite different (something like 'on the second day, she is a hater of Vishnu). Regards, Krishna From Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU Fri Jul 28 01:58:37 2000 From: Richard.Barz at ANU.EDU.AU (Richard Barz) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 11:58:37 +1000 Subject: caturanga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060426.23782.3904567967229611374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I think that Ludo- if it is the same as the American game Pacheesi- is modelled on the Indian game CaupaR, which was supposed to be especially liked by Krishna. Richard Barz Australian National University At 08:00 AM 7/27/00 +0100, you wrote: >I recall reading that, more recently, the British board game "Ludo" was >modelled on Caturanga. Certainly (from the appearance of the latter in >18-19 century miniatures) they look very similar. Does anyone know if this >is true? > >>>What is the connection between Indian caturanga and chinese chess (xiangqi)? >>> >> >>Chinese chess is said to be one of offspring of Indian chess as well as >>the western chess. >>It is also the case with Korean and Japanese ones, although the way of >>spread is not clear. >> >>The largest Japanese dictionary, "Nihon Kokugo Dai Jiten" (Shougakkan >>1976) explains that >>"xiangqi" is a transliteration of "caturanga". (q.v. "shougi" --- >>"xiangqi" is pronounced as >>"shougi" in Japanese and the character "jiang", which means a general or >>commander in chief, >>has taken place of "xiang", which means an elephant. By the way "qi" means >>"go", a board game >>of Chinese origin, or something like that. ) >>This explanation is based on Kindaichi Kyousuke's "Shougi Meigi Kou" (On >>the name and meaning >>of shougi) published in 1910 (in Japanese). >> >>Prof. Itoh Tomoatu of Sinology at Hokkaido University denies the >>'transliteration' theory on the >>ground of phonetical difference between the two words, and has it that the >>name "xiangqi" derives >>from the pieces of 'elephant (xiang)' in the game. See Itoh Tomoatu, >>'Shougi Tangen' (The >>Tracing of Origin of Japanese Chess), "Shougi Journal", 1984 (in Japanese). >> >>---- >>Nozawa Masanobu >>E-mail: nozawa at la.numazu-ct.ac.jp > > >Dr Valerie J Roebuck > From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Fri Jul 28 12:42:59 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 14:42:59 +0200 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060453.23782.8219432234404776247.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sacrifice of buffaloes is important and relatively common in Nepalese rituals and it forms a major part in the peculiar Sacrifice of serpents (unknown in other parts of the subcontinent, but which reminds us of king Janamejaya's sacrifice in the Mahabharata) at the festival of Indrayani in Kathmandu, of which a 108-minute ethnographic film was made by Dirk Nijland, Balgopal Shrestha and Bert van den Hoek (distribution: Institute of Cultural and Social Sciences. Film Library, Wassenaarseweg 52, NL-2333 AK Leiden; fax +31-71-5273619). The buffalo sacrifice takes place in a temple and it precedes the sacrifice of serpents and some other wild animals. See also Hoek, B. van den, and Balgopal Shrestha "The Sacrifice of Serpents ... " in Bulletin de l'Ecole Francaise d'Extreme Orient 79.1(1992) pp. 57-75. Jan Houben -----Original Message----- From: beitel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, July 28, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: Re: buffalo sacrifice >This Cenci buffalo sacrifice is also written up by me in a 1984 issue of the >journal _Uomo_, an issue on meat ed. by Christiano Grottanelli. > >>===== Original Message From Indology ===== >>An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, Tamilnadu. >>It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place >>(Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is >>a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... >> >> >> >>I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and >>photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. >> >> >> >>Kind regards, >> >>Ulrike >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] >>Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: buffalo sacrifice >> >> >>Dear List Members, >> >>I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >>was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >>relevant information/references? >> >>Sincerely, >> >>D.N.Jha From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Fri Jul 28 09:22:24 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 14:52:24 +0530 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060448.23782.8099838763294527732.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Gorkha units in the army used to ceremonially slaughter a male buffalo on the Dussehra day.We,as school boys, were told that the head was to be severed in one stroke rajesh kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in -----Original Message----- From: beitel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Friday, July 28, 2000 2:30 PM Subject: Re: buffalo sacrifice >This Cenci buffalo sacrifice is also written up by me in a 1984 issue of the >journal _Uomo_, an issue on meat ed. by Christiano Grottanelli. > >>===== Original Message From Indology ===== >>An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, Tamilnadu. >>It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place >>(Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is >>a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... >> >> >> >>I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and >>photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. >> >> >> >>Kind regards, >> >>Ulrike >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] >>Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: buffalo sacrifice >> >> >>Dear List Members, >> >>I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >>was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >>relevant information/references? >> >>Sincerely, >> >>D.N.Jha From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Fri Jul 28 06:58:22 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 14:58:22 +0800 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060439.23782.12944977357377647116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, Tamilnadu. It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place (Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. Kind regards, Ulrike -----Original Message----- From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: buffalo sacrifice Dear List Members, I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide relevant information/references? Sincerely, D.N.Jha From sasun at NUS.EDU.SG Fri Jul 28 09:23:04 2000 From: sasun at NUS.EDU.SG (Ulrike Niklas) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 17:23:04 +0800 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060451.23782.2353956523996555591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Alf Hiltebeitel, sorry I didn't mention your article: I answered in kind of a hurry and did not have the time to look up my biblio-notes. Could I use this occasion to ask you again, whether you would be willing to contribute an article to our on-line journal for Tamil and Dravidian culture, newKOLAM ? It now comes from Singapore where I am employed since November 99. The first S'pore-volume has just been launched (http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/journal/kolam/index.htm) - the few remaining technical difficulties (like the sometimes uncontrollable reaction of the fonts etc.) will soon be eliminated... Kind regards, Ulrike _____________________________________ Dr. Ulrike Niklas, Asst. Prof. South Asian Studies Programme National University of Singapore 3, Arts Link Singapore 117570 Tel.: +65 - 874 8474 email: sasun at nus.edu.sg -----Original Message----- From: beitel [mailto:beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU] Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 4:55 PM To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: buffalo sacrifice This Cenci buffalo sacrifice is also written up by me in a 1984 issue of the journal _Uomo_, an issue on meat ed. by Christiano Grottanelli. >===== Original Message From Indology ===== >An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, Tamilnadu. >It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place >(Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is >a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... > > > >I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and >photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. > > > >Kind regards, > >Ulrike > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] >Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: buffalo sacrifice > > >Dear List Members, > >I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >relevant information/references? > >Sincerely, > >D.N.Jha From vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET Fri Jul 28 17:37:26 2000 From: vjroebuck at APPLEONLINE.NET (Valerie J Roebuck) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 18:37:26 +0100 Subject: caturanga In-Reply-To: <20000728045102.7024.qmail@www0v.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <161227060461.23782.8118266935814103056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It sounds as though Ludo may have elements of both CaupaR and Pachisi. It's played on a square board, but the Plus-Sign-shaped track of CaupaR is still there. The squares that this leaves in the corners are used as bases for the players. There are four players, with four counters each, as in Pachisi. Players have to race their counters round the track to get to their own "home" square (in the middle of the board). They can also slow down other players by taking their counters, forcing them back to their base to start again. Moves are determined by the throw of a dice. (You have to throw a six to start a counter off.) There are other refinements, but this (from memory) is roughly how it works. The OED has the word "Ludo", but the date it's first recorded is illegible in my copy (18-splodge-8), and there's no other information. >Richard Barz wrote: >I think that Ludo- if it is the same as the American game Pacheesi- is >modelled on the Indian game CaupaR, which was supposed to be especially >liked by Krishna. > Jogesh Panda wrote: >I have no idea what the American game Pacheesi looks like, but the Indian >games Pacheesi and CaupaR are two different games. The Pacheesi [or Pachisi >from pachis < paJcaviMSa]has twenty five houses [or squares] on a borad [or floor] drawn with five parallel lines across and five parallel lines horizontal. It is played by four players with four pawns [or tamarind seeds, date seeds or betel nuts]. These pawns are called goTi-s, possibly from pebbles that were earlier used in such games. For example, in the game of "bAgh-bakri". The player whose pawns reach the twenty fifth house first wins. > >The CaupaR also is a board [or floor] game. The CaupaR can be played by as >many players as can be seated around the table or on the mat or durry. The >board [or floor] plan is like an oversized Plus [+] sign. The four hands [or >sides] have each sixteen [or more]houses or squares. The game is played with >dice [or cowrie shells]. Valerie J Roebuck Manchester, UK From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE Fri Jul 28 16:47:00 2000 From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 18:47:00 +0200 Subject: Yonivaktra and manojyotis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060459.23782.4272135828404231749.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Two unrelated questions on behalf of a friend not on this list: 1. A text he came across described the shape of a certain vedi as 'yonivaktra'. Does anyone know where he can find a more elaborate description of this, and/or an illustration? 2. Who is the .r.si of the 'mano jyoti.h' mantra in Vaajasaneyi-sa.mhitaa 2.13? Many thanks in advance, Martin Gansten From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Sat Jul 29 03:46:09 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 00 20:46:09 -0700 Subject: Jobless Hindu gods Message-ID: <161227060465.23782.8386674124673512791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The AIT theory finally gets some solid support in India. Not from some daft neurologist like in the case of the OIT theory but from a belted minister of education. The Education Minister of Tamilnadu has made an original Indological contribution to the raging Aryan debate, Paleo-Indian writing etc.. He says, QUOTE Sanskrit was not around when Tamil was born, the Minister said, adding that it was introduced in the country by Aryans when they invaded the sub-continent 500 years after Tamil originated. " No fool will believe that Tamil was born after the birth of Sanskrit, " he said, calling Sanskrit a mixture of various local languages in the north, developed by Aryans to communicate in writing. END QUOTE Evidently, the Hon'ble minister has privileged access to the original birth certificates of these two languages. The Hon'ble minister has definite views on some more Indological topics. For guaranteed laughter, please visit http://www.expressindia.com/news/daily/20000726/02603700.htm Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Jul 29 05:33:31 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 00 05:33:31 +0000 Subject: Jobless Hindu gods Message-ID: <161227060467.23782.16734686578206726049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lakshmi Srinivas pointed to: >http://www.expressindia.com/news/daily/20000726/02603700.htm The Hon'ble minister says, ``Even Parvathi (Lord Shiva's wife) would have frightened by seeing the snake.'' (sic) naishA yuktir nUtanA. "Sive SRngArAdrA .... harAhibhyo bhItA ..." - ring a bell? Poor Siva - he has for long been used to nindAstuti. :-)) Vidyasankar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Sat Jul 29 10:53:54 2000 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (beitel) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 00 06:53:54 -0400 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060470.23782.4103705912021291428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Ulrike, Thank you for the reminder. I have n\been working mainly on Sanskrit and trhe Mbh for the last few years. So nothing to contribute.Let us see if a month of fieldwork just now leads to anything. >???From Chennai, Alf >===== Original Message From Indology ===== >Dear Alf Hiltebeitel, > >sorry I didn't mention your article: I answered in kind of a hurry and did >not have the time to look up my biblio-notes. > >Could I use this occasion to ask you again, whether you would be willing to >contribute an article to our on-line journal for Tamil and Dravidian >culture, newKOLAM ? It now comes from Singapore where I am employed since >November 99. > >The first S'pore-volume has just been launched >(http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/journal/kolam/index.htm) - the few remaining >technical difficulties (like the sometimes uncontrollable reaction of the >fonts etc.) will soon be eliminated... > >Kind regards, >Ulrike >_____________________________________ >Dr. Ulrike Niklas, Asst. Prof. >South Asian Studies Programme >National University of Singapore >3, Arts Link >Singapore 117570 >Tel.: +65 - 874 8474 >email: sasun at nus.edu.sg > > >-----Original Message----- >From: beitel [mailto:beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU] >Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 4:55 PM >To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Subject: Re: buffalo sacrifice > > >This Cenci buffalo sacrifice is also written up by me in a 1984 issue of the >journal _Uomo_, an issue on meat ed. by Christiano Grottanelli. > >>===== Original Message From Indology ===== >>An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, >Tamilnadu. >>It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place >>(Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is >>a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... >> >> >> >>I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and >>photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. >> >> >> >>Kind regards, >> >>Ulrike >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] >>Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: buffalo sacrifice >> >> >>Dear List Members, >> >>I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >>was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >>relevant information/references? >> >>Sincerely, >> >>D.N.Jha From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Sat Jul 29 10:56:02 2000 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (beitel) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 00 06:56:02 -0400 Subject: buffalo sacrifice Message-ID: <161227060472.23782.4438326136011289811.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list: Sorry for the oversight of mailing this letter to you all. Alf Hiltebeitel >===== Original Message From Indology ===== >Dear Ulrike, > >Thank you for the reminder. I have n\been working mainly on Sanskrit and trhe >Mbh for the last few years. So nothing to contribute.Let us see if a month of >fieldwork just now leads to anything. > >>From Chennai, Alf > > >>===== Original Message From Indology ===== >>Dear Alf Hiltebeitel, >> >>sorry I didn't mention your article: I answered in kind of a hurry and did >>not have the time to look up my biblio-notes. >> >>Could I use this occasion to ask you again, whether you would be willing to >>contribute an article to our on-line journal for Tamil and Dravidian >>culture, newKOLAM ? It now comes from Singapore where I am employed since >>November 99. >> >>The first S'pore-volume has just been launched >>(http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/journal/kolam/index.htm) - the few remaining >>technical difficulties (like the sometimes uncontrollable reaction of the >>fonts etc.) will soon be eliminated... >> >>Kind regards, >>Ulrike >>_____________________________________ >>Dr. Ulrike Niklas, Asst. Prof. >>South Asian Studies Programme >>National University of Singapore >>3, Arts Link >>Singapore 117570 >>Tel.: +65 - 874 8474 >>email: sasun at nus.edu.sg >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: beitel [mailto:beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU] >>Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 4:55 PM >>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>Subject: Re: buffalo sacrifice >> >> >>This Cenci buffalo sacrifice is also written up by me in a 1984 issue of the >>journal _Uomo_, an issue on meat ed. by Christiano Grottanelli. >> >>>===== Original Message From Indology ===== >>>An annual buffalo-sacrifice takes place in Chitra-month in Cenci, >>Tamilnadu. >>>It's during the annual festival for the three main goddesses of the place >>>(Mariyamman, Kaliyamman and Kamalakkaniyamman, a local goddess) - and it is >>>a combination of religious sacrifice and royal ceremony... >>> >>> >>> >>>I witnessed the festival a few years ago and collected video- and >>>photo-documents of it which I am willing to share, if requested. >>> >>> >>> >>>Kind regards, >>> >>>Ulrike >>> >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Professor D N Jha [mailto:dnjha at DEL2.VSNL.NET.IN] >>>Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 11:29 AM >>>To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >>>Subject: buffalo sacrifice >>> >>> >>>Dear List Members, >>> >>>I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or >>>was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide >>>relevant information/references? >>> >>>Sincerely, >>> >>>D.N.Jha From hart at POLBOX.COM Sat Jul 29 19:30:23 2000 From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 00 21:30:23 +0200 Subject: buffalo sacrifice In-Reply-To: <001001bff844$21714840$8ae2c5cb@jha> Message-ID: <161227060474.23782.4170561178442148409.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 08:59 2000-07-28 +0530, Prof. D.N. Jha wrote: Dear List Members, I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide relevant information/references? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Amber near Jaipur might be worth checking up. Regards, Artur Karp University of Warsaw Poland From saf at SAFARMER.COM Sun Jul 30 22:44:32 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 00 15:44:32 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060476.23782.12402321589200247987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The discussion of N.S. Rajaram's "horse seal" has continued over the past week on a mini-List including Michael Witzel, Rajaram, S. Talageri, V. Agarwal, K. Elst, and a number of others. Rajaram finally revealed this morning (as I suggested on this List a while back) that his "horse seal" was "computer enhanced." The evidence (not mentioning the computer enhancement, but otherwise complete) is newly summarized at: http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/rajarambull.html From shiromanee at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 31 02:16:14 2000 From: shiromanee at YAHOO.COM (Jogesh Panda) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 00 19:16:14 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060478.23782.14055985902722897181.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank you Steve Farmer for the excellent detective work in exposing Rajaram's bull. Thanks for the excellent images in the page you provided. I have not read Rajaram's book. You, along with other noteworthy members on the list, have spared people/lurkers like me the trouble of looking for the Rajaram/Jha book. That's done. Rajaram no no. Let us drum the imposter out. But.. but, why are you so bitter and angry ? You even misspelled the culprit's name. Were/are you equally bitter/angry with those illustrious names who read Tamil in the IVC scripts [and supposedly broke the code]? Just curious. Always on the middle path, Jogesh Panda --- Steve Farmer wrote: > The discussion of N.S. Rajaram's "horse seal" has > continued over > the past week on a mini-List including Michael > Witzel, Rajaram, > S. Talageri, V. Agarwal, K. Elst, and a number of > others. Rajaram > finally revealed this morning (as I suggested on > this List a > while back) that his "horse seal" was "computer > enhanced." > > The evidence (not mentioning the computer > enhancement, but > otherwise complete) is newly summarized at: > > http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/rajarambull.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From saf at SAFARMER.COM Mon Jul 31 03:12:38 2000 From: saf at SAFARMER.COM (Steve Farmer) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 00 20:12:38 -0700 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060481.23782.6503594903595100447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jogest Panda writes: > Thank you Steve Farmer for the excellent detective > work in exposing Rajaram's bull. Thanks for the > excellent images in the page you provided. I have not > read Rajaram's book. You, along with other noteworthy > members on the list, have spared people/lurkers like > me the trouble of looking for the Rajaram/Jha book. > That's done. Rajaram no no. Let us drum the imposter > out. > > But.. but, why are you so bitter and angry ? You even > misspelled the culprit's name. Bitter and angry? That's a bit over the top. When a researcher doctors historical data and makes big claims about it, I think that the fraud should be exposed. It's also fun doing it. My feelings about Rajaram don't go further than that. But fraud is fraud, nonetheless. And "misspelled the culprit's name"? Thanks for *your* excellent detective work in pointing out a typo in the dozen or so times Rajaram's name was spelled on the webpage! Error fixed! Hit "reload" or "refresh" on the webpage and watch the error disappear. I bet that Rajaram wishes he could make his "computer enhanced" horse seal disappear so easily! :^) From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 31 06:08:11 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 00 23:08:11 -0700 Subject: Nota Bene (the software): yea or nay Message-ID: <161227060483.23782.8052327832538068172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any thoughts, pro or con, on Note Bene? *Please respond off-list.* __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 31 14:35:25 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 09:35:25 -0500 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060496.23782.3728303210894575894.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >From: "Jan E.M. Houben" > >If so, how easily does this pass to bookform in the Indian scholarly >research tradition? > What does bookform mean ? Regards, Subrahmanya ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Mon Jul 31 04:31:00 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (shrikant bahulkar) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 10:01:00 +0530 Subject: Dhyani Buddhas ? Message-ID: <161227060514.23782.1163920056239094775.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The term Dhyanibuddhas is also used by Benoytosh Bhattacharyya in his book "An Introduction to Buddhist Esoterism", ( 2nd edn., The Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office, Varanasi, 1964, pp. 128ff.). Alex Wayman remarks: " In illustration, some questionable terms have been applied to the Buddist Tantras. (1) There is no expression 'Dhyaani Buddhas' in the texts; one finds instead the words Tathaagata, Buddha or Jina, as in the compound pancatathaagata ('five Tathaagatas'),..." (Yoga of the Guhyasamaajatantra, Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, reprinted, 1991, p. 54). The term 'panca tathaagataa.h' frequently occurs in the Buddhist Tantras, such as the Guhyasamaaja. S. S. Bahulkar Peter Wyzlic wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > > > they are doing ? In my own limited reading of texts, I have never > > come across any mention of Buddhas engaging in dhyaana and, in my > > understanding, there is a qualitative difference between dhyaana and > > samaadhi. Still, some people seem very attached to the term so I am > > probably fighting a lost cause -- looks like heuristic neologisms win > > out over terminological accuracy. > > It has been said that Brian H. Hodgson introduced the therms > "dhyanibuddha" and "dhyanibodhisattva". You find them, for instance, in > Hodgson's "Notices of the languages, literature, and religion of Nepal and > Tibet", first published in: Asiatic Researches (1828). I am using here the > collective volume of Hodgsons articles published under the same title > (Repr.: New Delhi: Manjusri Publ. House, 1972 [Bibliotheca Himalayica. > Ser. II, vol. 7]), p. 28 seqq.). Probably on the authority of Hodgson it > was used by Burnouf (see the index of his "Le Lotus de la Bonne Loi", > s.v.) and, among others, by Carl Friedrich K?ppen: Die Religion des > Buddha. Vol. 2. Berlin 1859, p. 25 seqq. (many instances in the index, > s.v.). > > In a note to his work "Monk, householder, and tantric priest : Newar > Buddhism and its hierarchy of ritual" (Cambridge 1992), p. 373, n. 1 to > chap. 9), David Gellner writes: "Hodgson introduced the term 'Dhyani > Buddha' which has become current in Western writings"; Gellner doubts that > it is actually used by Newar Buddhists today. > > I hope this helps. > > Peter Wyzlic > > -- > Peter Wyzlic > Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn > Regina-Pacis-Weg 7 > D-53113 Bonn > Germany / Deutschland From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Mon Jul 31 08:20:23 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 11:20:23 +0300 Subject: provenance of a verse In-Reply-To: <20000724160526.5311.qmail@web1401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227060487.23782.18008116951298403825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Mon, 24 Jul 100 19:05 +0300 MSK Jan Brzezinski wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: > Could anyone tell me the source of this verse: > > yadupateH kva gatA mathurA purI > raghupateH kva gatottara-kozalA > iti vicintya kuruSva manaH sthiraM > na sad idaM jagad ity avadhAraya > > Thank you for your help. In "Indische Sprueche" by O.Boehtlingk, 3 Theil, SPb, 1873 this verse (No. 5249) is accompanied with the following footnote: "RUpasanAtana und GoswAmin im Zabdakalpadruma unter *yadupati* .b. *- kozalA* gedruckt". Ya.V. --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Institute of Oriental Studies Mon, 31 Jul 100 11:11 +0300 MSK From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Mon Jul 31 09:35:39 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 11:35:39 +0200 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060489.23782.5854761172833878020.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I join in congratulating Steve Farmer for the excellent detective work in exposing Rajaram's "horse" and showing it to be the more commonly expected bull. A moment of reflection, not just object-oriented but also with regard to research tradition and presuppositions, at this (so-manieth) historical event in the history of Indus Valley research). Rajaram's horse was false and unreliable. Was it also an intentional fraud? If so, how easily does this pass to bookform in the Indian scholarly research tradition? Or was it sloppy methodology and low research ethos combined with eagerness to find and demonstrate ideologically desirable results? Our judgement will depend on Rajaram's reaction now. Let's see whether it "bespeaks a t[h]eological rather than a scientific mindset": whether he is able to admit his mistakes (even good scholars may misjudge and blunder), and to change and adapt his position in the face of the evidence (as a good scholar should be ready to do). In any case in his eagerness to find certain results he has now greatly helped to prove the opposite. That is, not what HE perceived and presented as the opposite, viz. the nineteenth century Aryan Invasion Theory, but in any case the conspicuous absence of horses in the earlier Harappan layers (which, as repeated *ad nauseam* on this list in the last few years and in several recent publications, need not imply massive and destructive invasions of "Aryans"). Greetings, Jan Houben -----Original Message----- From: Jogesh Panda To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 4:14 AM Subject: Re: Rajaram's "horse seal" >Thank you Steve Farmer for the excellent detective >work in exposing Rajaram's bull. Thanks for the >excellent images in the page you provided. I have not >read Rajaram's book. You, along with other noteworthy >members on the list, have spared people/lurkers like >me the trouble of looking for the Rajaram/Jha book. >That's done. Rajaram no no. Let us drum the imposter >out. > >But.. but, why are you so bitter and angry ? You even >misspelled the culprit's name. Were/are you equally >bitter/angry with those illustrious names who read >Tamil in the IVC scripts [and supposedly broke the >code]? Just curious. > >Always on the middle path, >Jogesh Panda > >--- Steve Farmer wrote: >> The discussion of N.S. Rajaram's "horse seal" has >> continued over >> the past week on a mini-List including Michael >> Witzel, Rajaram, >> S. Talageri, V. Agarwal, K. Elst, and a number of >> others. Rajaram >> finally revealed this morning (as I suggested on >> this List a >> while back) that his "horse seal" was "computer >> enhanced." >> >> The evidence (not mentioning the computer >> enhancement, but >> otherwise complete) is newly summarized at: >> >> http://www.safarmer.com/horseseal/rajarambull.html > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. >http://invites.yahoo.com/ From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Mon Jul 31 06:16:49 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 11:46:49 +0530 Subject: [buffalo sacrifice] In-Reply-To: <39811073.26288409@zg.tel.hr> Message-ID: <161227060485.23782.3727686322534094970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Perhaps the following press reports may help : http://www2.hindustantimes.com/ht/nonfram/141097/detsta04.htm http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20000706/ifr06060.html Samar > Professor D N Jha wrote: > Dear List Members, > I am trying to find out the temples in India where baffalo is sacrificed = > or was sacrificed till recent times. Could any one be so kind to provide = > relevant information/references? > D.N.Jha From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jul 31 09:57:31 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 11:57:31 +0200 Subject: SV: Rajaram's "horse seal" Message-ID: <161227060491.23782.5971761845194485399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan E.M. Houben [SMTP:jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL] skrev 31. juli 2000 11:36: > Rajaram's horse was false and unreliable. Was it also an intentional fraud? > If so, how easily does this pass to bookform in the Indian scholarly > research tradition? Or was it sloppy methodology and low research ethos > combined with eagerness to find and demonstrate ideologically desirable > results? Regarding the Jha/Rajaram effort to show that the language of the Indus script is Sanskrit, I think we have to separate Jha's effort from Rajaram's. It is, after all, Jha who has developed the interpretation of the script. There is no reason to assume that Jha has committed a conscious fraud. I believe he has presented his results in good faith, but he has fallen into an intellectual trap which has been exposed on this list by Michael Witzel and Steve Farmer. He is not the only one to fall into this trap, others have done so in other fields than Indology. Rajaram is a different cup of tea. Having read a couple of his books, I could easily show how he manipulates research data in a flourish of rhetorical language to defame and vilify Western scholars while promoting views and interpretations that are, to be polite, intellectually weak. If his manipulation of the "horse" seal wouldn't have drummed him out of Academia, his books certainly would. It is important to see Rajaram for what he is: a political person manipulating research data to support a certain kind of politics. This implies that he is of no interest to Indology as a contributing scholar. He belongs in the political sphere, and should be of interest to students of politics rather than Indologists. Indologists have a responsibility to clean up the mess that Rajaram and his fellow travellers produce, in other words: they should participate in the public debate and expose the errors and manipulations that men like Rajaram produce. It is only to be wished that such debunking could reach more people than the those who are fortunate enough to have an Internet connection. Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Jul 31 16:36:21 2000 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 12:36:21 -0400 Subject: Rajaram's "horse seal" In-Reply-To: <3984AF8C.F2D5415F@safarmer.com> Message-ID: <161227060498.23782.12049393117952647085.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Can we as decisively discredit Rajaram's claim that horse bones are present at every strata of the IVC? ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN Mon Jul 31 12:00:53 2000 From: rkk at NISTADS.RES.IN (Rajesh Kochhar) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 17:30:53 +0530 Subject: either/or Message-ID: <161227060494.23782.3595975658435229770.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Did the Aryans invade India? Suppose the answer is no. Then does it automatically follow that India is the original habitat of the Aryans? The answer must be an emphatic NO. Very often the two questions are seen as two sides of a coin, which they are not. It is iimportant to address these questions separately Rajesh Kochhar ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Prof Rajesh Kochhar Director National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies Pusa Gate , K S Krishnan Marg , New Delhi 110012 ph + 91 11 5764064 / 5743227 fax 5754640 altenative email rkochhar2000 at yahoo.com web site http://nistads.res.in From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Jul 31 22:02:40 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 18:02:40 -0400 Subject: Marathi learning material in english Message-ID: <161227060506.23782.9727681016483510630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, 1) Is there any good Marathi learning material in english? - A good reference grammar to modern spoken and written Marathi. - A good dictionary. - introductory colloquial "how to speak Marathi" material. - audio or video cassettes. 2) Can someone tell me if the language spoken by the tribal peoples in the Tansa valley (I think this is about 50 km. from Bombay) is different from standard Marathi? Would this information be available in Grierson's Linguistic Survey of India (and if so has the language and dialect distribution in Maharashtra changed substantially since the survey was done)? Many thanks, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From tawady at YAHOO.COM Mon Jul 31 17:15:13 2000 From: tawady at YAHOO.COM (Raveen Satkurunathan) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 18:15:13 +0100 Subject: Jobless Hindu gods Message-ID: <161227060501.23782.15576123689651733269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:46:09 -0700, Lakshmi Srinivas wrote: >The AIT theory finally gets some solid support in > >The Hon'ble minister has definite views on some more >Indological topics. For guaranteed laughter, please >visit > > >Thanks and Warm Regards, > >LS We should keep in mind that the context of that political commentary on Indology was made at a very low level political meeting commemorating a local nativist religious reformer. It should not be construed as a state of Indology among Tamil intellectuals in general. Regards Raveen From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Mon Jul 31 16:17:53 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 18:17:53 +0200 Subject: Question on behalf of a non-member of the list Message-ID: <161227060503.23782.2114433914599490969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the list, the following question turned up on a Norwegian list for South-Asianists (Nofsa). >I am currently writing up my MA thesis in social anthropology, based on a >fieldwork I did last year in Tihar Jail, New Delhi, on human rights >education of subordinate prison staff. I am trying to locate some references >on South Asian concepts of punishment and justice. Do you have any ideas? Can anybody help? I will send the answers to the relevant person. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 1: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax 2: +47 85 02 12 50 (InFax) Email: lmfosse at online.no From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Jul 31 17:38:40 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 18:38:40 +0100 Subject: either/or Message-ID: <161227060505.23782.17477261335597736783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:30:53 +0530, Rajesh Kochhar wrote: >Did the Aryans invade India? >Suppose the answer is no. Then does it automatically follow that India is >the original habitat of the Aryans? >The answer must be an emphatic NO. >Very often the two questions are seen as two sides of a coin, which they >are not. It is important to address these questions separately In principle, the introducers of Indo-European language into India, introducers of horse & chariot into India and authors of the RV are potentially distinct. These people may be significantly separated in time, may have ancestor/descendant relationships, or they may be different groups of people. These should not all be confused by using one term -- "Aryan" -- until identity is demonstrated. -arun gupta From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Jul 31 23:10:53 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 00 19:10:53 -0400 Subject: Marathi learning material in english In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227060508.23782.11630699055192389872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a set of 4 books by Maxine Berntsen and Jai Nimbkar for Marathi published by the Department of South Asian Regional Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. They are a good tool to learn modern Marathi. There is an older book Spoken Marathi by Franklin Southworth and Naresh Kavadi, published by the University of Pennsylvania Press. The various regional and tribal dialects of Marathi have been studied separately and a useful series of such studies was published by the Deccan College in Pune. If you send a question addressed to Professor Ghatage at the Bhandarkar Institute in Pune, you may perhaps get an exact answer. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 31 Jul 2000, Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > > 1) Is there any good Marathi learning material in english? > - A good reference grammar to modern spoken and written Marathi. > - A good dictionary. > - introductory colloquial "how to speak Marathi" material. > - audio or video cassettes. > > 2) Can someone tell me if the language spoken by the tribal peoples in the > Tansa valley (I think this is about 50 km. from Bombay) is different from > standard Marathi? Would this information be available in Grierson's > Linguistic Survey of India (and if so has the language and dialect > distribution in Maharashtra changed substantially since the survey was > done)? > > Many thanks, > > > Harry Spier > 371 Brickman Rd. > Hurleyville, New York > USA 12747 > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com >