From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  1 13:50:12 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 00 05:50:12 -0800
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054757.23782.9837561594722747844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

KaviJar UtayaNan, who has rendered Kalevala, the Finnish epic
into Tamil has sung a nice greetings on the Millennium; From it:

  IrAyiram ANTE varuka!
  OrAyiram vAzttup peRuka!
  cIrAyiram ciRappup peruka,
  nURAyiram varaGkaL taruka!

Sanskrit poems on the Millennium, please.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  1 14:09:46 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 00 06:09:46 -0800
Subject: Indian Millennium - a 1000 years ago!
Message-ID: <161227054759.23782.6885391944176457475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks to Mr. Manivannan who gave pointers:

  From Times of India http://www.timesofindia.com/311299/31indi23.htm
  New Year sops for the Cholas
  By Kanwaldeep Singh

Thanjavur: Giving in to the demands of the powerful Manigramam guild,
His Majesty Rajaraja today offered major tax breaks to traders
shipping goods to China and Cambodia. Addressing a Manigramam meeting,
held here to celebrate 15 years of His Majesty's rule, Rajaraja also
promised fresh investments in the shipping sector and statutory powers
to anti-piracy squads.

[...]

  mAyA, mAyA! http://www.timesofindia.com/311299/31indi21.htm

Advaitins clash in holy town
By Jyotirmaya Sharma

Varanasi: Clashes broke out last night between two groups of
advaitins, disrupting the tranquility of the holiest of the Hindu
cities. In the skirmishes that ensued, the head of the Samkara school
of advaita, Swami Shunyanand Saraswati, was slightly hurt. His
followers accused Swami Dandananda Saraswati of the Mandana Misra
school of resorting to strong-arm tactics.

[...]


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From kusuma19 at IDT.NET  Sat Jan  1 16:35:15 2000
From: kusuma19 at IDT.NET (Kusuma Cunningham)
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 00 11:35:15 -0500
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054767.23782.8286397032260632147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Ken,
This was nice except for the last line.
love,
kusuma
ps. please send reply to hotmail add.
kusuma19 at hotmail.com




From mirek at MS19.HINET.NET  Sat Jan  1 18:32:46 2000
From: mirek at MS19.HINET.NET (Miroslav Rozehnal)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 02:32:46 +0800
Subject: Millennium
In-Reply-To: <20000101135012.11664.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054769.23782.2894800634134571796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I know it is off-topic and all but allow me just a short remark:
The new millenium begins on 1.1.2001, not 1.1.2000. There was not a "Year
Zero", the year 1 B.C. was followed by the year 1 A.D.
So, happy new year 2000, the last year of the 20th century and the 2nd
millenium to all worthy scholars! ;-)

Miroslav Rozehnal




From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Sun Jan  2 13:40:37 2000
From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 08:40:37 -0500
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054772.23782.1359334436314186545.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

But if we imagine (not a "Year Zero") but a "Point Zero" between 1 BC and 1
AD -- so that the "1st millennium" began on 1/1/1 AD -- then wouldn't the
year 1999 AD be the last (2000th) year of the 2nd millennium (just as the
year 9 AD was the last -- 10th -- year of the 1st decade of the 1st
millennium)?  If so, then 1/1/2000 AD would be the first day (and 2000 AD
the 1st year) of the 3rd millennium.

George Cronk

----- Original Message -----
From: Miroslav Rozehnal <mirek at MS19.HINET.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: Millennium


> I know it is off-topic and all but allow me just a short remark:
> The new millenium begins on 1.1.2001, not 1.1.2000. There was not a "Year
> Zero", the year 1 B.C. was followed by the year 1 A.D.
> So, happy new year 2000, the last year of the 20th century and the 2nd
> millenium to all worthy scholars! ;-)
>
> Miroslav Rozehnal




From george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Sun Jan  2 17:54:12 2000
From: george9252 at EMAIL.MSN.COM (george9252)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 12:54:12 -0500
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054775.23782.9953849125534706687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

No, you are right.  I was wrong.  (Sometimes I feel so stupid!)

George Cronk

----- Original Message -----
From: D.K.PRINTWORLD <dkprint at 4MIS.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Millennium


> I agree with you that 01/01/0001 was the first day of the first
> millennium. As such 01/01/1001 was the first day of second millennium.
> And accordingly 01/01/2001 should be the first day of third millennium.
> I may be wrong!
> Susheel K. Mittal
> D. K. Printworld, New Delhi
>
> george9252 wrote:
> >
> > But if we imagine (not a "Year Zero") but a "Point Zero" between 1 BC
and 1
> > AD -- so that the "1st millennium" began on 1/1/1 AD -- then wouldn't
the
> > year 1999 AD be the last (2000th) year of the 2nd millennium (just as
the
> > year 9 AD was the last -- 10th -- year of the 1st decade of the 1st
> > millennium)?  If so, then 1/1/2000 AD would be the first day (and 2000
AD
> > the 1st year) of the 3rd millennium.
> >
> > George Cronk
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Miroslav Rozehnal <mirek at MS19.HINET.NET>
> > To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: Millennium
> >
> > > I know it is off-topic and all but allow me just a short remark:
> > > The new millenium begins on 1.1.2001, not 1.1.2000. There was not a
"Year
> > > Zero", the year 1 B.C. was followed by the year 1 A.D.
> > > So, happy new year 2000, the last year of the 20th century and the 2nd
> > > millenium to all worthy scholars! ;-)
> > >
> > > Miroslav Rozehnal




From dkprint at 4MIS.COM  Sun Jan  2 15:01:40 2000
From: dkprint at 4MIS.COM (D.K.PRINTWORLD)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 20:31:40 +0530
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054773.23782.8707823320289550235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I agree with you that 01/01/0001 was the first day of the first
millennium. As such 01/01/1001 was the first day of second millennium.
And accordingly 01/01/2001 should be the first day of third millennium.
I may be wrong!
Susheel K. Mittal
D. K. Printworld, New Delhi

george9252 wrote:
>
> But if we imagine (not a "Year Zero") but a "Point Zero" between 1 BC and 1
> AD -- so that the "1st millennium" began on 1/1/1 AD -- then wouldn't the
> year 1999 AD be the last (2000th) year of the 2nd millennium (just as the
> year 9 AD was the last -- 10th -- year of the 1st decade of the 1st
> millennium)?  If so, then 1/1/2000 AD would be the first day (and 2000 AD
> the 1st year) of the 3rd millennium.
>
> George Cronk
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Miroslav Rozehnal <mirek at MS19.HINET.NET>
> To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Millennium
>
> > I know it is off-topic and all but allow me just a short remark:
> > The new millenium begins on 1.1.2001, not 1.1.2000. There was not a "Year
> > Zero", the year 1 B.C. was followed by the year 1 A.D.
> > So, happy new year 2000, the last year of the 20th century and the 2nd
> > millenium to all worthy scholars! ;-)
> >
> > Miroslav Rozehnal




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Jan  2 22:54:47 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 00 22:54:47 +0000
Subject: Millennium
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000102023003.009dc6b0@ms19.hinet.net>
Message-ID: <161227054777.23782.11211283419934852814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Please do not discuss this topic on the INDOLOGY list.  Let's start the
new year as we mean to continue, with a little self-discipline!

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Mon Jan  3 17:49:04 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 00 10:49:04 -0700
Subject: Vital Statistics: Languages of India
In-Reply-To: <200001031636.RAA27264@mx1.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227054784.23782.8023583856650901879.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:

>I need the freshest possible data on major languages of India -
>could you please direct me to a web page with solidly grounded
>statistics (I know of Ethnologue)?

>How many constitutional languages does India possess at present?

You can not get it from a more authoritative source than the
Census of India web-site ('91 data):

http://www.censusindia.net/language.html

The Ethnologue enumeration scheme is quite curious. Among the
major languages of the world they include:

46 AWADHI
71 HARYANVI
72 MARWARI
75 MAGAHI
76 CHHATTISGARHI
77 DECCAN

As a result they are able to adjust the ranking of the
top few languages of the world.

Who runs "Ethnologue"? Is it a committee of academic
researchers? What is their objective?

Yashwant




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jan  3 12:59:05 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 00 12:59:05 +0000
Subject: Millennium
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.9912302154220.10643-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227054779.23782.10702954072049950484.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> Many best wishes to you for the new millennium.

As a result of the above remark, a number of list members have sent me
smug personal messages telling me that the "real" new millennium begins in
2001, yada yada yada.  Some have even insulted me for being so stupid as
to think that 2000 is the millennium.

As you can imagine, this is not a life-enhancing beginning to my
year!  Kindly desist.


--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Mon Jan  3 15:11:24 2000
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 00 16:11:24 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0001031250350.15064-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac .uk>
Message-ID: <161227054781.23782.8414426014093732136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List Members,


I need the freshest possible data on major languages of India - could you
please direct me to a web page with solidly grounded statistics (I know of
Ethnologue)?

How many constitutional languages does India possess at present?

Thanking you in advance,
and wishing you a Happy new 2K (MM) Year,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland








---------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------
 10 000 zl INWESTUJESZ WIRTUALNIE WYGRYWASZ REALNIE
w internetowej symulacji inwestowania www.pieniadz.pl
------------------------------------------------------




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  4 01:47:07 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 00 17:47:07 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054788.23782.348564161866124292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What is the population of the isolate Nahali speakers?

What is the Munda dialect that is Westernmost in India?
What is its population? An overwhelming majority of Munda
languages is Santali of East India and, the Westernmost
Munda population to Santali or total Munda population?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE  Mon Jan  3 20:50:59 2000
From: HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE (Heinz Werner Wessler)
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 00 21:50:59 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054786.23782.15878180984358106464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp schrieb:

> I need the freshest possible data on major languages of India - could you
> please direct me to a web page with solidly grounded statistics (I know of
> Ethnologue)?
>
> How many constitutional languages does India possess at present?

Dear Artur Karp,

check

http://www.censusindia.net/cendat/languagemenu.html

and tables 25 and 26 in particular for the 1991 census data.

Keep in mind that the information of the census always has to be interpreted
carefully, it is not simply to be taken as the objective truth. Compare for
example Krishna, Sumi, India's Living Languages : The Critical Issues, New Delhi
[etc.] 1991.

The Indian Union has 18 "scheduled languages" according to the 8th amendmend of
the constitution. It had been less earlier - first of all, Sindhi was added, and
some years ago Nepali (as the second exterritorial language [English isn't
"scheduled"]), Konkani and Manipuri.

Yours,

HWW

Dr. Heinz Werner Wessler
Bergstr.27A
D-53844 Troisdorf
Fon/Fax +49-228-455125




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 00:38:38 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 00:38:38 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054977.23782.13315219703824144476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N. Ganesan wrote:
> Apart from the Western dominance, Roman script's
> simplicity is also an important factor.

Where is the simplicity ? If most Roman alphabets  have to be given  diacritical marks
or many have to be combined to indicate sounds absent in European tongues, their number
in practical usage goes above fifty as with Indian alphabets. The problem is not of the
script but of the sounds. If they are more in Indian languages, then there is more to
write also no matter in what way.

It is simpler for a European to read Hindi in Roman script and for a Hindian to read
English in Devanagarii. But the pronunciation in both cases suffers and has to be
corrected by the ear. The issue hence in not of convenience but ONLY OF DOMINANCE.

Take the case of Greek. Why have the Greeks not given up their script and changed to
Roman script ? It is not just a matter of identity, it is also losing accesibility to
ancient texts. In making the script simpler for modern Greek there is aready a damage.
The accents or rather the tones or svaras have been lost and thus pronunciation has been
affected.

Siilarly, Roman writing of Indian languages will damage the pronunciation and making
older manuscript all the more distant.

> Sanskrit or Tamil texts routinely appear in academic publications
> in Roman script with diacriticals. Without diacritical marks,
> the Harvard-Kyoto convention is used for the entire Monier-Williams
> dictionary and the Cologne scheme has the entire Tamil Sangam
> texts online.

This is for the sake of western Indologists not for the Indian people, lay or scholars.
Laboratory agenda is not for people. Far from Roman, not even Devanaagarii  can be
prescribed for the whole of India. Things are best left to a healthy growth and
evolution.

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 00:38:38 +0000]




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 00:51:44 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 00:51:44 +0000
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054827.23782.3767010988445799185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Claude Setzer wrote:
>      I think there are two things that are not being considered
>      by you here:
>      1) The transmission of these texts was mostly by recitation,
>      not by transcription.

While the teaching of the text was through recitation and verbal instruction, the
gurukuls and sampradayas also preserved written texts. Part of the duties of the
students of standing was to copy the text of a sampradaya every thirty forty years


>      2) The concept of the women being in a lower position,
>      whether valid or not, was a common theme in Sanskrit
>      literature. It is not, by any means, stated only in the
>      Gita.

This is indeed true, as the number of vais'ayas , s'udras and women going for
formal education to gurukulas was negligible.

It may be noted that the Gita is one of the earliest texts that offers bhakti as a road
to salvation of  status equal to philosophic study or diks'aa into hatha/raaj yoga or
even the Buddhist and Jain practices.  Bhakti could be available to women and the
s'udras outside formal education (a sort of open university or cyber cafe). Another
example of this was giving the status of Pancamaveda to theatre and the
elevation of Naat.yas'aastra, where it is stated that this is being done to bring Vedic
knowledge to women and s'udras who do not have access to Samhitaas taught formally.

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 00:51:44 +0000]




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 01:21:28 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 01:21:28 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054912.23782.10509528741169249907.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:
> What for convenience sake is called Hindi linguistic area has several
> centers and unstable peripheries. Historically, each of the components of
> this continuum, whether they are treated as dialects or languages, is linked
> to its own local center of political power, usually in control of a regional
> or trans-regional market.

I am anxious to know if in ancient times the same situation prevailed in the regions
(Madhyades'a, Udici, Pancaal,Magadha etc.,) now controled by Hindi and its variety.
What was the bhaas.aa/praakita situation then ? Was there rivalry between these
languages (Aavantika, Maagadhii, Ardhamaagadhii, etc,  to control political power and
market and in what way ?  If not, why so ?

> Is it really possible to build a Hindi nation just by stabilizing the
> constellation of Hindi dialects/languages around one fixed model of
> linguistic expression?

I do not know if even the most fanatic proponents of Hindi believe or want a "Hindi
nation". They have undoubtedly ask for much of the space that is controlled by English
in education, administration, and business for "linking" the country. English still
understood by 2.5 percent Indians keeps most Indians (of all languages out).
Linking can be only in standard expression (as film and TV have proved beyond doubt for
Hindi) and it does not go against literary prizes being given for Bundelkhandii,
Chattisgarhi, Brijbhaas.aa or Avadhii or Rajasthaani and a dozen other bhaas.aas.

> P. S. I have always wondered why so much more attention  old-style Indology
> devoted to what divides people than, rather, to what makes them want to be
> together.
> Is it possible that some people responsible for the language policies in
> India (and in Pakistan) got their education in schools with a history
> program similar to the one taught in mine?
Very gently and euphemistically put ! Indian states were made by Indians following the
post eighteenth century  model of European nation states carved largely on language
basis. Most Indians refuse to recognise that the Indian linguistic states are now
defunct but instead demand further division on linguistic basis rather than for economic
or administrative needs.

I would like to ask Indologist to comment if any 19th century  Indian would have said
that he /she is Tamilian, Maliyali, Bengalii, or Hindi-bhaas.ii? Did bhaas.aa make up
identity as of now ?

EU has now chosen English (standardised)for linking, then why has Hindi been regarded a
demand that shall subsume other Indian languages and dialects ?

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 01:21:28 +0000]




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 03:03:52 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 03:03:52 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055030.23782.6058362038520865182.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:
> Looking at what happens at present, one may assume that also in the past
> entering any kind of transaction in multilingual/multicultural millieu
> presupposed ability to negotiate for and effectively use a proper (that
> means:
> situation-specific) instrument of communication - social dialect,
> territorial dialect, other language, link language. In their colloquial
> forms the dialects of the Hindi linguistic area are end-results of such
> processes of negotiation and adjustment.

It is a remarkably succint account of the Hindi-family (pl.dont translate as Parivaar),
working and that is the big future of Hindi as Films, tv, and music-lit,pop fiction and
even translations from other languages,  have shown inspite of all  political hurdles.
Perhaps Magadhi, Aavantika and Praacya and Udiicii may have functioned in a similar way,
more light can be shed by Prakritologists.

> P.S. According to recent rumors that have reached this provincial town of
> Warsaw, not one, but three new States are being planned to be created:
> Chattisgarh, Uttarkhand and Jharkhand. Any truth in it?

Warsaw seems to have the knack of hearing the true rumours. In future, Vidarbha from
Maharashtra and Tailangana from Andhra. This is the end of glosso-centric state carving
and recognistion of economic and administrative reasons for state formation. Let us hope
that there will be Chattisgarhi prize for poetry and Kumaonvi  prize for music, but the
states shall teach standard Hindi in schools and colleges.

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 03:03:52 +0000]




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 05:54:16 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 05:54:16 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055032.23782.12383507207454233215.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

> I am sorry to disappoint the promoters of the theory that sees the
> language-based identity as an European import. We have incontovertible proof
> that Tamils called themselves tamizkkuTi/tamizan2 living in the land of tamiz
> called tamizakam/tamiznATu at least 1500 years earlier than the 19th century.
>  Some of these facts have already been presented in Indology. Once more let....

The issue discussed is the nation state based on language as a creation of
post-Renaissance Europe imported into India and the identity of the citizen of such a
state . The issue is not languages and their territories in India and whether people
were named denominated after the language they spoke.

In all humility I must assert that description of languages spread over territories  in
ancient or medieval Indian sources do not make a case for carving, making and unmaking a
state, sovereign or subsidiary, on linguistic basis. Why Tamil country only, Saurashtra,
Gauda,Aavanti, Magadha, Pancanada , Gandhaara,  and so many other regions  and their
people were given the same name as the language spoken by them. But did any monarch stop
his conquering army after he reached the limits of his native language territory?  He
may be described, let us say, as a Tamil king, but he was not chosen to rule
tamil-speakers only. In the logic of state making language had no place.

The language identity did not play cardinal role in making marital allinaces as did
gotra, varna and jaati nor were the army battalions marked along linguistic lines.
Soldiers would cook and eat according to varna-jati not as Maratha-brothers or
Andhra-biddas. This grouping of the Indian Army is colonial.

Linguistic state means that everything shall be done in ONE language from selling fruits
to teaching scriptures. Comparing 19cent Europe with India shall show that this never
obtained in the subcontinent, where different languages were used for different purposes
in any given place, some for poetry, others for music, many for theatre, two or three
for scriptures and philosophy and so on. Whereas the monolingual state and its citizen
translates everything into one language (usually the now so glorified mother-tongue),
the multilingual state and its citizen goes to many tongues. Historically, most Indians
except the poor and uneducated have never been mono-lingual. The how could there be a
glossocentric state ?

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 05:54:16 +0000]




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 06:08:23 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 06:08:23 +0000
Subject: SV: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055035.23782.1280212260295851516.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:

> As for English, this is most certainly true, and as for Hindi, certainly not
> impossible. But English is not being promoted as the EU's "national language",
> and its preeminence is first and foremost due to the enormous economic and
> cultural impact of the United States. Without the US, the EU might be opting
> for French rather than English, given the traditional cultural prestige of
> French. Thus, the promotion of Hindi is a political affair, whereas English
> promotes itself through its sheer force and the advantages that come with it.

EU is post-nationalistic, and globalistic under US impact as you admit, hence  the
appelation of national language does not matter any more. Nationalism like discarded
technology still works in the Third World. And within the national frame, Hindi has
always chosen by its proponents as for its "force and advantage", hence Dayanand wrote
in Hindi as did even the musicologist Bhatkhande. Till the forties supporters of Hindi
came from all over India.

It may also be seen that now even in India, Hindi proponents are not worried if it is
called "raasht.ra bhaas.aa" national lang or Raaj official lang or even if it is
promoted as link language Samparka bhaas.aa, it NOW means the same thing as pragmatism
has triumphed.

While Tamilian Brahmins alone have taken to Hindi after being thrown out of Tamil Nadu,
Keralite lower and middle castes have happily acquired Hindi-Urdu to take jobs all over
India and in the Gulf. It pays to be Hindi-friendly.

Hindi opposition comes most from Anglophones, whose space Hindi threatens and they have
been responsible for instigating the other language speakers. As Anglophones were
powerful in Calcutta and Madras most under colonial legacy, the opposition to Hindi was
severe. In Punjab, it had was a tactic to boost to Sikh identity, despite the fact that
Granth Sahib is an excellent example of Hindi variety. The benefit has gone most to
Anglophones as they were able to keep middle and higher education and bureacracy in
their grip. Now this elite has begun to approach Hindi as Hinglish ( OK Yaar, lagaaon
one chakkar and post this letter for me, come back jaldii), a creole or urdu, for
home-talk, shopping, servants, and TV. This is a softer strategy towards accomodating
Hindi and its market. It is the McDonald  with mirchii.

Liberalising Indian economy and privatisation shall change the language politics very
severly as the state shall not be the Great Employer. In pragmatism, Indian languages
shall find their equations. Hindi has a market too, as  Microsoft knows it better than
most us.

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 06:08:23 +0000]




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan  4 15:01:50 2000
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 07:01:50 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054799.23782.10168289456234603286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Artur Karp <hart at POLBOX.COM> wrote:

> At http://www.censusindia.net/language.html Hindi
> speakers form 40.22% of
> India's population; an outsider would form a picture
> of a solid linguistic
> block.

Certain political realities serve to "solidify" this
picture. For example, there has been an increasing
tendency among Punjabi Hindus to return their mother
tongue as Hindi.

In what appears to be a reverse situation, the number
returned for Konkani is surprisingly low.

> Am I right, however, in supposing that a
> villager from Mithila would
> be still unable to communicate with a villager from
> around Bikaner without
> resorting to some third (link) language - in this
> case, most probably,
> Bazari Hindustani?
>

I doubt if communication or mutual comprehension is
the issue here.

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com




From lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan  4 04:37:02 2000
From: lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN (pradeep mittal)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 10:07:02 +0530
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054790.23782.15054130926988100147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

zero is also a number after that one starts
although zero is almost negative for any person,
but still a person in cricket start scoring runs to start with zero, one , two
and so on.
and when he reaches upto 99 he thinks to complete his century with one run
only
and when he completes it is called a century and not on 101. so i think the
millennium starts with 2000 and not 2001 , because when it was zero than came
year "one".
when he is on 199 he thinks for second century so he completes it with one run
to make it to 200.and that is called double century and not on 201.
pradeep mittal

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
> > Many best wishes to you for the new millennium.
>
> As a result of the above remark, a number of list members have sent me
> smug personal messages telling me that the "real" new millennium begins in
> 2001, yada yada yada.  Some have even insulted me for being so stupid as
> to think that 2000 is the millennium.
>
> As you can imagine, this is not a life-enhancing beginning to my
> year!  Kindly desist.
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Tue Jan  4 09:13:01 2000
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 10:13:01 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <20000104014707.21747.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054794.23782.7059182582928950873.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Drs. Ganesan, Malaiya, Wessler,

At http://www.censusindia.net/language.html Hindi speakers form 40.22% of
India's population; an outsider would form a picture of a solid linguistic
block. Am I right, however, in supposing that a villager from Mithila would
be still unable to communicate with a villager from around Bikaner without
resorting to some third (link) language - in this case, most probably,
Bazari Hindustani?

According to "Ethnologue", in 1991 Hindi as such was the language of
180,000,000 and of  "346,513,000 or nearly 50% including second language
users in India". Which agrees with the number given in 1991 census.

Solid and detailed data on tribal ~ scheduled castes populations and their
languages are hard to obtain. Digest forms of censuses do not show important
"tribal" languages (like e.g. Gondi, or Santali), even if they are used by
much larger populations than some of the "scheduled languages". It's quite
easy to obtain the exact number of Sanskrit speakers, but extremely hard to
find even approximate data on Nahali.

Will try to obtain Krishna, Sumi, India's Living Languages : The Critical
Issues, New Delhi [etc.] 1991. Thank you. I would be especially grateful for
bibliographical data on linguistic situation in ancient India (have a lot
on Indo-Aryans, less on Dravidians - and practically nil on Mundas).

On Nahali:

1) According to "Ethnologue" (see under NIHALI, or search the data-base
using NHL) 5,000 in 1987.

G. A. Zograf in his "Jazyki Juznoj Azii" (South Asian Languages; Moskva
1990) gives some attention to Nahali (Nihali, Kalto); according to his data
in 1961 Nahali had ca 1200 speakers. On p. 202 Nahali bibliography:

Bhattacharya S. Field-Notes on Nahali. - IL (Indian Liguistics), 17 (1957) -
Kuiper F.B.J. Nahali. A Comparative Study. - Mededeilingen der Koninklijke
Nederl. Akademie v. Wetensch.., Afd. Letterk., N.R. 25/5 (1962) -
Kuiper F.B.J. The Sources of the Nahali Vocabulary. - Zide N.H. (ed.).
Studies in Comparative Austroasiatic Linguistics. The Hague 1966  -
Shafer R. Nahali. A Linguistic Study in Paleoethnography. - HJAS (Harvard
Journal of Asiatic Studies), 5 (1940) -

2) The westernmost Munda dialect... Is it not Kurku (Korku) - Mahadeo Hills
and slightly to the west, into Maharashtra? Zograf (p. 152) has 284,000 in
1971; "Ethnologue" 455,436 (?, for 1994).

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland









---------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ------------------
 10 000 zl INWESTUJESZ WIRTUALNIE WYGRYWASZ REALNIE
w internetowej symulacji inwestowania www.pieniadz.pl
------------------------------------------------------




From srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  4 09:25:21 2000
From: srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 10:25:21 +0100
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054792.23782.12546087817129933626.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Could you please explain why and how zero is negative?
 
KS 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: pradeep mittal 
  To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:37 AM
  Subject: Re: Millennium


  although zero is almost negative for any person,



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000104/5c2bdc92/attachment.htm>

From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Jan  4 18:04:02 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 11:04:02 -0700
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <200001041109.MAA21907@mx1.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227054805.23782.3765207388568087004.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp wrote:
>At http://www.censusindia.net/language.html Hindi speakers form 40.22% of
>India's population; an outsider would form a picture of a solid linguistic
>block.

There is an old saying that the spoken language and the taste
of the water drawn from the wells varies every 50 kos. It was also
true in England before the regional variations were erased by
urbanization and standardization.

Lakshmi Srinivas wrote:
>there has been an increasing tendency among Punjabi Hindus to return
>their mother tongue as Hindi.

Khari Boli, the standard dialect, is a close relative to Punjabi
of Eastern (Indian) Punjab. The Hindus of Punjab are often accused
of having disowned their own language. However the language of the
Sikh scriptures is not Punjabi, most Sikh Gurus wrote in a language
that is not Punjabi. The Adi Granth compilation includes  works
of numerous non-Punjabis like Kabir, Raidas even Namdeo. The people
of Punjab never regarded the language of Adi Granth to be alien, old
perhaps.  A good part of  Sikh literature, including by Guru Gobind
Singh, and many authors after him is in a dialect most akin to Braj.

Yashwant




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jan  4 11:48:54 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 11:48:54 +0000
Subject: Millennium
In-Reply-To: <00b001bf5699$4b504500$c3414bd4@srivastava>
Message-ID: <161227054797.23782.4782993416043223302.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Do not discus this non-indological topic on the INDOLOGY list.

Thank you.

Dominik Wujastyk

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, pradeep mittal wrote:

> zero is also a number after that one starts
> although zero is almost negative for any person,
> but still a person in cricket start scoring runs to start with zero, one , two
> and so on.
> and when he reaches upto 99 he thinks to complete his century with one run
> only
> and when he completes it is called a century and not on 101. so i think the
> millennium starts with 2000 and not 2001 , because when it was zero than came
> year "one".
> when he is on 199 he thinks for second century so he completes it with one run
> to make it to 200.and that is called double century and not on 201.
> pradeep mittal
>
> Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 30 Dec 1999, Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
> >
> > > Many best wishes to you for the new millennium.
> >
> > As a result of the above remark, a number of list members have sent me
> > smug personal messages telling me that the "real" new millennium begins in
> > 2001, yada yada yada.  Some have even insulted me for being so stupid as
> > to think that 2000 is the millennium.
> >
> > As you can imagine, this is not a life-enhancing beginning to my
> > year!  Kindly desist.
> >
> > --
> > Dominik Wujastyk
> > Founder, INDOLOGY list.
>

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Kailash Srivastava wrote:

> Could you please explain why and how zero is negative?
>
> KS
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: pradeep mittal
>   To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:37 AM
>   Subject: Re: Millennium
>
>
>   although zero is almost negative for any person,
>
>




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Tue Jan  4 20:05:30 2000
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 14:05:30 -0600
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054810.23782.11355022758312338054.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ravi Chawla 

 
"Mam hi partha vyapastriya ye'pi syuh papa-yonayah

istriyo vaisyas tatha sudras te'pi yanti param gatim."                                 (Gita 9:32)

 This translates into:  "O son of Partha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower class - women, vaisya or sudra, - they can reach the supreme goal."

 Where is the error?  The error seems to be in the word 'Istriyo' ( women), instead I feel  it should be the word 'Ksatriyo' ( a social order).  It seems anyhow the word 'Istriyo' was transposed for the word 'Ksatriyo' centuries ago while Gita was being copied.

  I think there are two things that are not being considered by you here:
  1) The transmission of these texts was mostly by recitation, not by transcription.

  2) The concept of the women being in a lower position, whether valid or not, was a common theme in Sanskrit literature. It is not, by any means, stated only in the Gita.

  As for your curiosity about the non-mention of kshatriyas, it is also common to consider Brahmana and Kshatriya as having similar spiritual position, in comparison to "lower" castes.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000104/6a2f0805/attachment.htm>

From rchawla at DELLNET.COM  Tue Jan  4 22:27:40 2000
From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 14:27:40 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054808.23782.5436425816334606185.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Is there a typographical error in the Sanskrit script of the Bhagavad-Gita? Yes, to me it seems there is.  
 This error seems to be in Verse 32 of Chapter 9 of the Gita.

 This verse reads:

  "Mam hi partha vyapastriya ye'pi syuh papa-yonayah

istriyo vaisyas tatha sudras te'pi yanti param gatim."  

                               (Gita 9:32)

 This translates into:  "O son of Partha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower class - women, vaisya or sudra, - they can reach the supreme goal."

 Where is the error?  The error seems to be in the word 'Istriyo' ( women), instead I feel  it should be the word 'Ksatriyo' ( a social order).  It seems anyhow the word 'Istriyo' was transposed for the word 'Ksatriyo' centuries ago while Gita was being copied.

 As we know there were four social orders in Hindu India at the time when the Gita was composed, as they are among the Hindus even today.  At the top of the list is Brahmin (#4). Followed by in order of ranking are Ksatriya (#3), Vaisya (#2), and the bottom Shudra (#1).  Brahmins are of the highest order, we can say they are #4, then Ksatriyas they are #3, then Vaisyas #2, and finally Sudras #1.  #4 is the highest order, and #1 is the lowest order of the society.

 If we have to ask a question as to what number (in a range of numbers 4 to 1) precedes # 2 and # 1. The answer is very clear, the number that precedes #'s 2 and 1, is #3.  So we ask the same question, what word should precede 'Vaisya and Shudra' in social rank, the answer would be Ksatriya.  

 In the above-mentioned verse, the word 'Istriyo' precedes the words Vaisya and Sudra., This seems to be an error,  because the word 'Istriyo' is out of order.   Logically the word 'Ksatriyo' should precede the words Vaisya and Sudra, as we know that lower classes after the Brahmin class are Ksatriya, Vaisya and Sudra.  

 The women of Brahmin order are as much Brahmin as are the men of that order, and the same is true for women of each other orders.  The women of Vaisya order are as much Vaisya as men of that order, and so on.  There is no distinction in men and women while it comes to their belonging to a social order - both men and women equally belong to the social order to which they belong.  Why then in the above verse, the women of Brahmin class are combined with the lower classes of the social order? This does not seem right.

 Many scholars who have translated the Gita from the original Sanskrit into English or in any other languages, and all modern readers of the Gita must find it difficult to justify all women, even though of Brahmin class, lumped together with the lower social orders of the society.  

Because in the Sanskrit script, the word 'Istriyo' and the word 'Ksatriyo' are so similar, it is very easy to have made the mistake.  Who knows, centuries ago, at the time when a copy of Gita was being made by coping from one book to another, the word 'Ksatriyo'  in the original book was smudged, and the copier (the person who was copying it to another book) guessed it as 'Istriyo', and since then the mistake continued.

 What was true at the time when the Gita was originally written, that is also true today. This is the significance of the Gita.  And what is true today was also true at the time when the Gita was written.  If typographical errors are possible in the modern times, when we have spell checkers and dictionaries built-in in the computers, can we not imagine that typographical errors were possible during the time the Gita was written or copied? 

 In the above verse if we take word  'Istryo' (women) as correct, then the question comes, why then there is no mention of 'Ksatriya' class in that verse?  It was implied during those times that the spiritual knowledge and salvation was for the Brahmin class.  This verse says that the people of lower classes namely, Istriya, Vaisya and Shudra can also find salvation through the path of Yoga.  Why there is no mention of 'Ksatriyas' ? Moreover, the word  'Istriya' (women) does not make any sense while the verse mentions the class order of Vaisya and Shudra in the same sentence.  Replacing the world 'ksatriya' in place of 'Istriya'  will make all the sense, and that way the verse will cover all four orders of the society.  

 Then the question comes, how this error would have escaped during the last many centuries?  

  In my opinion, the Westerner Sanskrit scholars did not catch the mistake because they did not want to interfere with the original texts of the Hindus.

 The Eastern (Hindu) scholars never caught this error because of their faith in the scriptures.  The reason is that the Gita is a very holy scripture for the Hindus.  People who believe in a religion generally have a very strong faith in the words of their scriptures.  This is true with people of all religions - whether they are Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus.  That is why no one (Hindu scholar) discovered this mistake.  Further it seems it never occurred to any one that there is a typographical error in the verse. 

 I am sending this article to many Sanskrit scholars and to all members of Indology Network.  I am sure all members of this network would like to know as to how other members of the network feel about this topic.  Thanks to the modern internet technology and the efforts of Dr. Dominik Wujastyk, the founder of this network, that the ideas can be shared with so many scholars instantly.  

  I request all members of this network to please look into this matter with an open mind.  I know this will create a great controversy among the Hindus who believe in the words of the Gita as currently written. I further feel that women all over the world will like this article - they will be glad that someone finally found the error. 

 Even if the Sanskrit scholars and Hindu followers of Gita agree that there seems to be a typographical error in the above verse, then a further problem will arise, who will ultimately take the responsibility of fixing the error and make the necessary revision?  Can such an error ever be fixed?

 I will welcome comments of all readers through the Indology network.  The interested parties can also contact me directly by email at: rchawla at dellnet.com.  

 Regards,

 Ravi Chawla

January 4, 2000



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000104/5723ffa1/attachment.htm>

From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  4 22:32:29 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 14:32:29 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054817.23782.15968527214467936031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 >2) The westernmost Munda dialect... Is it not Kurku (Korku) -
 >Mahadeo Hills and slightly to the west, into Maharashtra? Zograf
 >(p. 152) has 284,000 in 1971; "Ethnologue" 455,436 (?, for 1994).

Thanks for the info. Kurku/Korku is spoken in area close
to Nahali/Nihali spots near Jabalpur, isn't it?

Anything in literature about their movement from the East?

Does the Munda languages arrive in (East) India around 2000 B.C.?
Generally, the Eastern Neolithic culture of India dating from
around 2000 B.C. is ascribed to the Munda tribes.
Also, with the complete absence of retroflexion in Mon-Khmer
languages, the Munda languages seem to have acquired an
incomplete set of retroflexes rather late, after contacting with
IA and Dravidian. So are the other S. Asian areal features in Munda
languages.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan  4 22:38:02 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 14:38:02 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054819.23782.13497766509366280637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is no error of BhG due to printing.

Interested in an Indian book with universal approach/code of conduct
common to all, written around the same time as Gita?
Valluvar's Thirukkural is available in many translations.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jan  5 00:16:15 2000
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 16:16:15 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054820.23782.16075749530027896226.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Ravi Chawla <rchawla at DELLNET.COM> wrote:

...>
>  What was true at the time when the Gita was originally written, that is also
> true today. This is the significance of the Gita.  And what is true today was
> also true at the time when the Gita was written.

What about the following verses from Chapter 18 which is purported  to be the
essence of the preceding 17 chapters?

[source: "Srimad Bhagavadgita" (with English translation & Transliteration)
by Jayadayal Goyandka, Published by :Govind Bhavan Karyalaya Gita Press,
Gorakhpur, Seventh Edition 1996.]

-
Here is verse 41 of chapter 18
in the words of the Lord krSNa:
"The duties of the BrAhmaNas, the KSatriyas, and the Vaisyas, as well as of the
SUdras have been divided according to their *inborn qualities*, Arjuna. "

Verse 18:42-48 specify the typical duties of each caste and why following
varnasrama dharma is the way to realization of God.

verse 18:43 for KSatriya
verse 18:44 for Vaisya and SUdra:
it says:
"...And service of the other classes is the natural duty even of a Sudra (a
member of the labouring class)."

That taken together with the phrase "inborn qualities" of verse 41 clearly
tells the reader that a Sudra is *born* with the mentality and aptitude fit
only to be a slave to upper varnas forvever.

verse 18:47:
"Better is one's own duty, though devoid of merit, than the duty of another
well-performed: for performing the duty ordained by his own nature man does not
incur sin."

That clearly is an advice to a capable Sudra aspiting to perform the actions
reserved as duties of a brahmana.

verse 18:48:
"Therefor Arjuna, one should not abandon one's innate duty, even though it may
be tainted with blemish; for even as fire is enveloped in smoke, all
undertakings are clouded with demerit."

That clearly is an apologism to a brahmana who feels the pricks of guilt for
having to live off of the  people in the lower strata of the varnasrama system.

Are they still true?

Contrast those verse of Gita with the words of the Tamil didactic work
"thirukkuRaL"
written no later than Gita:
"piRappu okkum ellA uyirkkum" [thirukkuRaL: 98:2]
meaning " all beings are equal by birth".

Regards,
P.Chandrasekaran.





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  5 00:16:32 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 16:16:32 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054823.23782.3062673319923067431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET> wrote:

>
>You're too kind.  If indeed this instance has not been noted before, it
>may be that it simply was not noticed. After all, Western and Indian
>scholars are only human.
>
>That would give the honor of discovery to you.  And your arguments
>appear very sound. Are there any examples of this grouping of women,
>vaisyas and sudras in pre-Gita texts?

Gosh, seems like those who did respond didn't see the obvious flaw, while
those who do see it won't respond. I suspect Mr. Chawla is working with some
publication which mistakenly puts the vowel "i" before striyo in the verse,
as in some regional pronunciations in north India. The correct word for
woman is strI, not istrI. Meter also demands a form of strI. Neither istriyo
nor kshatriyo is acceptable. Count the syllables. As for the reason why
kshatriyas have not been included with vaishyas and shudras, dare one point
to the numerous essays on the position of brAhmaNas vs. kshatriyas in Indian
thought?

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Tue Jan  4 16:48:40 2000
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 16:48:40 +0000
Subject: Millennium
Message-ID: <161227054802.23782.11587577622353299462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:59:05 +0000, Dominik Wujastyk <ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK>
wrote:

> ... a number of list members have sent me smug personal messages
> telling me that the "real" new millennium begins in 2001, ...

It has recently been decreed that there was a year 0CE, though to
preserve continuity, dates x years from the zero point, x < 1,
are allowed to be considered as being in the year (roof(1-x))BCE.
Problem solved :-^

But, as the list members know, the new millennium began in 1943,
though it won't start till 2079.

However, the Real (with capital R) millennium (the sixth, or is
it 3894th?) began in 1899.

With a belated wish for happy new millennium to all,
Nath




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Tue Jan  4 17:29:27 2000
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 18:29:27 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054804.23782.15633583571134195776.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Karp et al.,

As often, the question of Hindi as a "monolith" is intensely political.  I
leave you to figure out just who has an interest in denying the unity of
Hindi, but fact is that any criterion which would break Hindi up into its
dialects would break up most other languages as well.  If it is true that
someone from Mithila could not understand someone from Bikaner (which is not
my impression), and that this favours listing Maithili and Rajasthani or so
as separate languages, then even smaller languages like German, French or
Dutch have to be broken up.  On Dutch television, Dutch-language movies from
Belgium are broadcast with subtitles: Antwerp to Rotterdam is but an hour's
drive, but the vernaculars are very different, though already much closer
than fifty years ago.  The number one in the world is Chinese, but that is
only a "monolith" on paper (literally, for its script is indeed the same for
everyone), its spoken forms by contrast differ more widely than Spanish from
Italian or Dutch from German.  If Chinese or Dutch can be counted as
languages in their own right, then so should Hindi.

That Panjabi Hindus gave Hindi rather than Panjabi as their home language
was a political choice, countering the cloaking of communalist proposals for
a Sikh state in the secular terminology of demands for a linguistic "Panjabi
province".  But there too, the question whether Panjabi is a dialect rather
than a language in its own right is legitimate.  Is Low German a German
dialect?  In that case, Panjabi may well be a Hindi dialect.  However, the
outcome ultimately depends on a political decision.  In 1945, the British
occupation authorities in northern Germany toyed with the idea of setting up
a separate kindom (with a native of the Hannover dynasty as king) with Low
German as official language.  If this had been pursued, Low German would
have been a full-fledged language by now.  Such a process of assertion of
language separateness is taking place in the case of Panjabi, not in that of
other Hindi dialects.

For the latter, we also have to consider the homogenizing impact of
education and the media, which bring the standard language into every
household (the Chinese call standard Chinese dianshihua, "TV language").  As
I heard Philip Lutgendorf explain during a lecture, standard Hindi including
its Sanskrit vocabulary (another object of political hate), once denounced
by Nehru for being incomprehensible in Chandni Chowk, is now generally
understood.  Unless the promotion of standard Hindi is abandoned, it is
certain that Hindi will become a single language if it is not one already.

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst

http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Tue Jan  4 20:46:12 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 00 21:46:12 +0100
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054815.23782.5008079491066099970.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Koenraad Elst [SMTP:koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE] skrev 04. januar 2000 18:29:
>
> As often, the question of Hindi as a "monolith" is intensely political.

For once, I agree with Mr. Elst, at least to some extent. The definition of
what constitutes a language is indeed not only linguistic. If we choose the
criterion "not mutually intelligible", then the only fair thing to do would be
to regard the standard versions of Norwegian, Swedish and Danish as dialects of
the same language - we understand each other very well. On the other hand,
there are dialects in all three countries that are difficult to understand for
speakers of the standard versions. Thus, there would seem to be separate
languages within the three standard languages, which on the other hand would
seem to be dialects of the same Nordic language. But Norwegian, Danish and
Swedish are spoken in three separate states and are national languages. So
maybe we should accept "spoken as a national language" as one of our criteria,
 or perhaps: "specifically related to a regional or cultural group identity".
Furthermore, we might perhaps have a look at what the speakers feel themselves:
Do I identify my own dialect as a form of a given national language (this is a
matter of cultural identity), and do others accept the definition?. Then we
have the criterion "identified by speakers as being the same language".

It would seem to me that the basic criterion is "mutual intelligibility". If
speakers A and B are unable to communicate with each other, the idea that they
are speaking the same language is simply false. On the basis of this criterion,
"Chinese" is the name of a language family rather than a language (compare
Romance), although one particular dialect may be regarded as preeminent.
Calling Chinese a language is then nothing more than a convention. (The written
language, of course, complicates the argument). As for Hindi, we should then
ask the following questions:

1. Are all dialects of "Hindi" mutually intelligible?
2. Do all speakers of "Hindi" dialects regard their language as Hindi, and do
others share their feeling?

In other words: For Hindi to be "Hindi", you need mutual intelligibility and a
broad consensus about which linguistic forms are Hindi and which are not. The
problem of politics arises if the political authorities decide that a certain
group is speaking Hindi whereas the members of that group disagree, or if the
dialect of one group defined or defining itself as Hindi speaking is more or
less incomprehensible to other Hindi-speakers.

Linguists may have a job to do here introducing formal criteria, but this is a
field where cultural identities and politics are difficult to remove from the
argument altogether. And as Elst points out: Languages and dialects do not only
move apart, they also converge, and schools and mass media can do a lot to
change people's speech habits. Thus, dialects that were on the verge of
becoming different languages may instead coalesce, a process that to some
extent can be influenced by shared cultural ideals and political measures
 (although not all attempts at such language engineering succeed: in Norway, we
tried something called "samnorsk", a brand of Norwegian artificially created on
the basis of New Norwegian and Riksmaal (Bokmaal). It was radical politics in
the sixties and seventies, and a colossal flop. Today, only a few diehard
adherents survive).

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  5 17:06:40 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 09:06:40 -0800
Subject: vAcaspatimizra
Message-ID: <161227054854.23782.3957608250211860949.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

S. Palaniappan> How firm are the dates of vAcaspati mizra
                and bhAskara?

vAcaspati is a common name in north india from the atarvaveda until
more recent times. There is a taruNa vAcaspati mentioning DaNDin's
poetics work. There is a vAcaspatimizra of the 16th century also.
The buddhist author, Jnanazrimitra and his disciple, Ratnakirti quote
one vAcasapatimizra in the 11th century. They are referring to
vAcaspatimizra who is generally dated to mid-9th to 10th century.
Sankara's date is usually backed from this vAcaspati's date. The
existence of a Cambodian inscription mentioning one Sankara
(R. Nagaswamy,  The date of Sankara, JOI (Baroda),  1962 says
Cambodian inscription's Sankara is different from Adi Sankara)
and the vAcaspatimizra's 9/10th century have combined to create
the late 8th/9th century date for Sankara. Perhaps, an Indian author
forwarded the mid-9th century date for vAcaspati and, this caught a
wide acceptance in the West. How many bhAmati mss. are in existence?
Do all(or most) of them give colophons to 850 CE?

Given the fluidity of chronological dates of Indian authors, the
analyzing of vAcaspati's date is essential for knowing Sankara's age.
I read conflicting dates for vAcaspati:
N. Isayeva, Shankara and Indian philosophy, 1993
p. 66 "vAcaspatimizra (the beginning of the tenth century)"
p. 85 "On the other hand, the latest limit is usually determined
by the commentary of vAcaspatimizra on Sankara's work. One of
vAcaspatimizra's is definitely dated ca. AD 840".

References on the dates of vAcaspatimizra? Does he belong to
10th century?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Wed Jan  5 08:27:22 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 09:27:22 +0100
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
In-Reply-To: <20000105001632.64851.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054830.23782.6801024328551789127.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Gosh, seems like those who did respond didn't see the obvious flaw, while
>those who do see it won't respond.

I was thinking the same thing...

>As for the reason why
>kshatriyas have not been included with vaishyas and shudras, dare one point
>to the numerous essays on the position of brAhmaNas vs. kshatriyas in Indian
>thought?

Not to mention the fact that brahmanas and kshatriyas (or kings, at least)
are mentioned together in the very next verse: ki.m punar braahma.naa.h
pu.nyaa bhaktaa raajar.sayas tathaa, etc.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Wed Jan  5 14:43:36 2000
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 09:43:36 -0500
Subject: POSITION POSTING (via SARAI)
Message-ID: <161227054841.23782.5934709399282325114.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following job posting is being forwarded to your mailing list or
listserve from the ACADEMIC POSITIONS section of SARAI. Please contact
posters directly for any further information.
David Magier - SARAI

===========================

Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 03:11:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Leslie Orr <orr at vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: position in Hindu Studies

Dear colleagues and friends,
Please publicize this job advertisement among candidates whom you think it
might suit.  Sorry for cross-posting.  Thank you very much!
Best wishes for the new year            --Leslie

The Department of Religion of Concordia University invites applications for
a limited-term appointment in the area of Hindu Studies.  Candidates for
the position should have expertise in both the religious and philosophical
aspects of the Hindu tradition, and familiarity with Hinduism throughout
the whole range of its historical development.  Knowledge of the texts and
relevant language proficiency are required.  The candidate should hold a
doctorate, and have experience and skill in teaching.  Familiarity with the
comparative study of religions will be considered an asset.  This
appointment is for the period August 15, 2000 to May 31, 2001.  In
accordance with immigration requirements, priority will be given to
Canadian citizens and permancent residents of Canada.  However, all
applicants are welcome to apply.  Concordia University is committed to
employment equity and encourages applications from women, aboriginal
peoples, visible minorities and disabled persons.  Applications should
consist of a letter of intent, curriculum vitae, statement of teaching and
research interests and three letters of reference.  They should be sent in
order that they will arrive by March 15, 2000 to Prof. Leslie C. Orr,
Chair, Department of Religion, Concordia University, 1455 boul. de
Maisonneuve west, Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3G 1M8.




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Wed Jan  5 10:25:48 2000
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 10:25:48 +0000
Subject: CARB fonts: proposed character set
Message-ID: <161227054833.23782.9471284850200918731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A few weeks ago I announced a plan to launch a set of fonts to supplement
the Times Norman and CSX+ fonts. These were to be called CARB, standing
for "Character/Accent RagBag", and were to contain whatever weird and
wonderful accented characters Indologists require that are not already
found in the standard fonts.

I have received numerous suggestions, and I attach to this message a
definition file listing (and assigning encoding slots to) the characters
which I propose to include in CARB. Final suggestions are welcome; there
are still 24 vacant slots, so if you have a burning need for
n-underring-macron-acute, now is your chance!

After a few days to allow people to comment I shall build and release the
fonts.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html


-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: CARB.def
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000105/991670bd/attachment.ksh>

From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU  Wed Jan  5 16:04:12 2000
From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:04:12 -0500
Subject: Indology Technology Methodology: E-textnology
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000010416484123@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227054847.23782.7217159298830513402.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik and List:

In a forthcoming publication, I'm explaining and introducing a new suite
of tools and technology for research in Indology.  There will be working
examples, a full set of resources, tools (which are free), etc.  I'm
figuring there will be follow-up questions and inquiries as to added
applications of the techniques.

My question pertains to the parameters of this list.  I know in the old
days of the list, methodology and technology figured prominently (and,
unfortunately, often used to devolve into font discussions ad infinitem).
It's been a while since the possibilities of electronic text (e-text)
technology --or "e-textnology"--has been discussed widely. I would like to
refer readers of the publication to a list (preferably this one) for
discussion as it would be --it seems-- relevant to this forum, though
perhaps more methodological and even technical in focus than we've been
for a while.

Is this something to which folks would be amenable?  I can promise that
the tools are quite learnable and accessible, and do a great deal more
than the rudimentary search-n-find/cut-n-paste stuff which has been the
predominant resources until now.  I estimate the traffic to not be overly
extensive, but productive.  Beginning sometime in teh next couple months.

thanks in advance,

jr

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Wed Jan  5 05:38:14 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:08:14 +0530
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <200001041109.MAA21907@mx1.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <161227054825.23782.13169985815620828116.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Artur Karp wrote:
> At http://www.censusindia.net/language.html Hindi speakers form 40.22% of
> India's population; ... Am I right, however, in supposing that a
> villager from Mithila would be still unable to communicate with a
> villager from around Bikaner without resorting to some third (link)
> language - in this case, most probably, Bazari Hindustani?

 A very correct observation. Not only that, a Mithili expert would not be
able to read a true Rajsathani work because Mithili and Rajasthani use
different scripts (Mithili uses one akin to Bengali, Rajasthani uses
Mahajani and Bhojpuri uses Kaithi).

  In India, what constitutes language and dialect are settled by
differences of script - thus few claim that Bengali is a dialect of
Hindi. Consistent logic demands that since Bhojpuri, Rajasthani, Maithili
and Khari Boli use different scripts, these be recognised as different
languages. This has been somewhat consistently done by the editors of
Ethnologue.

  Indeed, there are powerful movements underway attempting to
reclaim the ancient heritage of the speakers of these languages. There
are, in addition, rational reasons for Bhojpuris to restore the old
Kaithi script; it is much faster to write in than Devanagari, for
instance. Unfortunately, vested interests are attempting to destroy these
languages. Hence the stubborn refusal in certain quarters to concede
demands for the restoration of these ancient languages.

  Whether Chhatisgarhi and Braj Bhasa, both using Devanagari, are
different languages or are mere dialects of Hindi can be debated ad
infinitum, but there is a native Chhatisgarhi movement underway trying to
declare Chhatisgarhi a separate language. That this has been extremely
successful can be seen from the recent creation of a separate Chhatisgarh
state. Sooner or later, Chhatisgarhi is going to surface in censuses all
across the world as an independant language.

  The concept of `monolithic Hindi' is a relic of a past era and arose
merely because there was a lack of awareness and conciousness of cultural
heritage amongst ethnic Bhojpuris, Mithilis and Rajasthanis in the early
1900s. As literacy spreads, these peoples are rediscovering their roots.
The power bloc which suppressed these languages for the past 50 years is
now in irreversible decline; a sharp revival and attendant changes in the
number of world language speakers is hence to be expected in the next few
years.

Samar




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  5 19:19:30 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:19:30 -0800
Subject: vAcaspatimizra
Message-ID: <161227054867.23782.333014091754741971.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>(3) BhAsarvajJa as a younger contemporary of VAcaspati, both of whom can be
>placed around the middle of the 10th century *earliest*.
[..]
>Hence, a dating of VAcaspati, or, to be more accurate, his NyAya
>works in the latter half of the 10th century seems plausible.

     This does not work against the possibility of Sankara living
   in (mid- or)late 9th century.

   Thanks,
   N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Jan  5 18:25:01 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:25:01 -0700
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.05.10001051027540.1460-100000@hpc27.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227054858.23782.3410959833825742612.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:

>A very correct observation. Not only that, a Mithili expert would not be
>able to read a true Rajsathani work because Mithili and Rajasthani use
>different scripts (Mithili uses one akin to Bengali, Rajasthani uses
>Mahajani and Bhojpuri uses Kaithi).

At one time, several variations of Devanagari were in use in India.
To see examples of Mahajani and Kaithi, one would have to dig out
some old hand-written texts or see specialized books. No one today
uses these variant scripts.

>  In India, what constitutes language and dialect are settled by
>differences of script - thus few claim that Bengali is a dialect of
>Hindi. Consistent logic demands that since Bhojpuri, Rajasthani, Maithili
>and Khari Boli use different scripts, these be recognised as different
>languages. This has been somewhat consistently done by the editors of
>Ethnologue.

Maithili is today written in standard Devanagari.

I have been informed that Ethnologue is funded by some religious
organizations with specific objectives.

>  Indeed, there are powerful movements underway attempting to
>reclaim the ancient heritage of the speakers of these languages.
>....Unfortunately, vested interests are attempting to destroy these
>... stubborn refusal in certain quarters to concede demands  restoration
>..Sooner or later, Chhatisgarhi is going to surface in censuses all
>across the world as an independant language.
>The power bloc which suppressed these languages for the past 50 years is
>now in irreversible decline;

I also grew up speaking a dialect, Bundelkhandi.

I wonder what "Power-block" Dr. Abbas has in mind. In India
power has belonged to a class of people who think English is
the only respectable language. PM Vajpayee's granddaughter
can only speak English, it was reported. The educated,
wealthy and influential young people in India today increasingly
use Indian languages for talking with their servants and the
like.

Yashwant




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Wed Jan  5 18:49:45 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:49:45 -0700
Subject: Varna and Jati
In-Reply-To: <004701bf578b$5c1342a0$d2414bd4@srivastava>
Message-ID: <161227054863.23782.3723685167445241767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Kailash Srivastava asked:

>Under which varna does "Kayastha" fall?

I have studied this subject in some detail and can give
a detailed answer.

But a note on the question itself first.

The question presumes that the four varnas exist today as
described in Dharma-shastras (like by Manu).

Originally the four-varna concept could describe the classes
in the Indian society with a reasonable approximation. However
even then, quite a few communities did not fit any of the
four. They were classified into varna-sankaras, and the authors
struggled to come up with an explanation of the origin.

The four-varnas division gradually became meaningless. Some
scholars declared that the Kshatriyas and Vishyas have ceased
to exist. There is considerable disagreement among scholars
regarding what varna a community (jnyati=nyat) belongs to.

My view is that the four varnas have coalesced and thus each
person is at the same time a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and
Shudra.

Yashwant

PS: I have seen an article in Encyclopedia Indica (published
in Bengali and Hindi in 30s) arguing that the Kayasthas have
been included in the varna-sankara list because they were
mostly Buddhist. It does seem to be correct because Kayasthas
have had a strong connection with Buddhism once.

Many of the modern Hindu leaders have been Kayasthas:

Vivekananda
Aurobindo
Maharshi Mahesh Yogi

not counting authors, scientists and politicians.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  5 19:49:56 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:49:56 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227054869.23782.11273941620029232360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Vidyasankar Sundaresan" wrote:
>Do step out of the conflicting claims of the various Mathas, or the
>astrological information, and look at the critical academic
>discussion of Sankara's date. Unless all of Indian history is
>rewritten, and for strong reasons, there can be absolutely no
>possibility of accepting any date earlier than 700 CE, give or take a few
>decades.


vAcaspati's nyAya works, dated in the late 10th century, will pose
a problem for accepting 700 CE as Sankara's date. It is more likely
that Sankara flourished around 900 CE, give or take a few decades.

Also, Kunjunni Raja in ALB, v.24, 1960 has given arguments that
go against 700 CE date for Sankara. Kunjunni informs that
for Santarakshita (705-62) and Kamalasila (713-63), Sankara's
teachings were unknown.

Regards,
N.Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Jan  5 16:50:40 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:50:40 -0500
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054849.23782.11637975396485104651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In north india stri might be pronounced as istri by some, but it is always
written as stri.

It seems as many people on this list dont know the most obvious things about
north indian languages




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Jan  5 16:52:00 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 11:52:00 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054852.23782.14531425193238171825.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The scripts do help give languages some identity, but

Languages are not differentiated by scripts, but by things like case endings
grammatical forms, vocabulary.

the different scripts in india can easily be thought of as different fonts
of the same script. But the languages have more variation.




From C.Wooff at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK  Wed Jan  5 12:01:28 2000
From: C.Wooff at LIVERPOOL.AC.UK (Chris Wooff)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 12:01:28 +0000
Subject: fwd: Re: JOB: Sikh Studies
Message-ID: <161227054839.23782.8973734804317325997.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

fyi


--- Begin Forwarded Message ---


>On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:25:12 +0000 (GMT) Stephen Clark
><srlclark at liverpool.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:01:26 -0500
>> From: Anthony Dardis <phiabd at Mail1.Hofstra.edu>
>> To: PHILOSOP at louisiana.edu
>>
>> New Position
>>
>> Sardarni Kuljit Kaur Bindra
>> Chair in Sikh Studies
>>
>> HOFSTRA UNIVERSITY announces the establishment of Sardarni Kuljit Kaur
>> Bindra Chair in Sikh Studies. The Department of Philosophy and Religious
>> Studies invites applications for a tenure-track position in the field of
>> Sikh Studies with broad preparation in South Asian Religions.  Applicants
>> should have familiarity with classical texts in their original languages,
>> and field experience in South Asia. Demonstrated interdisciplinary
>> interests are desirable. Teaching responsibilities include Introduction to
>> Eastern Religions, upper-level courses in South Asian Religions and Sikh
>> Studies.
>>
>> The chair holder will also be expected to play a leadership role in the
>> development of Sikh Studies. The endowment of the Chair will include
>> support for scholarly conferences at Hofstra and travel for research
>> purposes. Requirements: Ph.D. or expectation of Ph.D. by August 2000.  Some
>> undergraduate teaching experience is preferred.  Applications will be
>> received through March 30, 2000 or until the position is filled.
>>
>> Hofstra University is a comprehensive educational institution enrolling
>> 8000 full time undergraduates and 5000 graduate and part time students in
>> all areas of the Liberal Arts and Sciences as well as in Business,
>> Communication, Education, Engineering and Law. Our 238 acre residential
>> campus is located in suburban Long Island, just 25 miles from Manhattan.
>> AA/EO Send complete dossier (including letter of application, writing
>> sample, three letters of reference and evidence of teaching proficiency) to
>> Search Committee A, Department of Philosophy and Religious Studies, Hofstra
>> University, Hempstead, NY 11549.
>>
>>


--- End Forwarded Message ---


__________________________________________
Chris Wooff mailto:C.Wooff at liverpool.ac.uk
Sent with Execmail 5.2 Beta 1 Build (4)




From emmerick at UNI-HAMBURG.DE  Wed Jan  5 12:22:54 2000
From: emmerick at UNI-HAMBURG.DE (Ronald E.Emmerick)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 12:22:54 +0000
Subject: "Etymologies are either obvious or wrong"
Message-ID: <161227054836.23782.11385062453185818474.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Etymologies are either obvious or wrong". This is a saying I first
heard from my former teacher in Cambridge, the late Sir Harold Bailey,
who also knew its source. I made a note of it but cannot find it. I
thought it was an American linguist but I am not sure. It has been
suggested it may be Meillet, but no one has so far been able to give me
chapter and verse. It is not in the OED.

--
Prof. Dr. Ronald E. Emmerick
Hamburg University




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan  5 20:24:31 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 12:24:31 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054813.23782.13655787617697474856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Ravi Chawla wrote:

>   In my opinion, the Westerner Sanskrit scholars did not catch the
> mistake because they did not want to interfere with the original texts
> of the Hindus.
>

With all respect, I don't know how in the world you came to this
conclusion, Ravi!

You're too kind.  If indeed this instance has not been noted before, it
may be that it simply was not noticed. After all, Western and Indian
scholars are only human.

That would give the honor of discovery to you.  And your arguments
appear very sound. Are there any examples of this grouping of women,
vaisyas and sudras in pre-Gita texts?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  5 14:39:56 2000
From: srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 15:39:56 +0100
Subject: Varna and Jati
Message-ID: <161227054844.23782.5909767050184582426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


Under which varna does "Kayastha" fall?



Kailash Srivastava



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000105/b5faf450/attachment.htm>

From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Jan  5 20:40:51 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 15:40:51 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054872.23782.3831080373639955263.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> The scripts do help give languages some identity, but
>
> Languages are not differentiated by scripts, but by things like case
endings
> grammatical forms, vocabulary.
>
> the different scripts in india can easily be thought of as different fonts
> of the same script. But the languages have more variation.

For the sake of curiosity, I can mention that the first Pakistani immigrants
to
Norway did not want to learn Norwegian but preferred English. Since
Norwegian
did not have an alphabet of its own, they did not accept Norwegian as a
separate language! However, they soon had to change their mind.

The difference in script is of course not a "professional" criterion, but it
is
closely connected to group identity and thus a cultural matter. Hindi and
Urdu
are in grammatical terms one language, but in terms of script and to some
extent vocabulary  they are two languages. And as we all know: the more Sans
kritic Hindi gets and the more Arabo-Persian Urdu gets, the more the mutual
intelligibility of the two idioms is reduced. An interesting aspect here is
of
course that the more educated a person gets, the more s/he is able to master
precisely those elements that reduce mutual intelligibility. Thus Hindi and
Urdu speaking sweepers may understand each other quite well, whereas
literati
may have problems unless they have taken the trouble of learning the other
party's idiom.
*************************

Yes I was not thinking about urdu and hindi, where there are 2 very
different scripts used to represent virtually the same language. thanks for
pointing that out. Many muslims refer to what they speak as urdu, although
they carelessly use sanskritic or other words for which there are easy(for
indians) equivalents in Arabic/persian. Sometimes its just a question of
personal terminology.

Its interesting about the pakistani immigrants, they could have been told
that like norwegian, urdu does not have a script of its own and just uses
arabic.

sincerely

Rajarshi




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jan  6 00:38:09 2000
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 16:38:09 -0800
Subject: Marriage between cousins
Message-ID: <161227054883.23782.16193885598882567754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is the practice of marrying one's maternal uncle's
daughter prevalent amongst Tamil brahmins. Is it
dependent on the subsect ?

Thanks,
Nikhil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  6 01:52:56 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 17:52:56 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054885.23782.11066509783839244419.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>
Subject: Re: Vital Statistics
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:08:14 +0530

SA: In India, what constitutes language and dialect are settled by
differences of script - thus few claim that Bengali is a dialect of
Hindi. Consistent logic demands that since Bhojpuri, Rajasthani, Maithili
and Khari Boli use different scripts, these be recognised as different
languages.
VA: By that logic, Marathi, Sanskrit and Nepali would become dialects of
Hindi because they all use the devanagari script.

SA:Unfortunately, vested interests are attempting to destroy these
languages. Hence the stubborn refusal in certain quarters to concede
demands for the restoration of these ancient languages.
VA: Really? Which vested interests? Which quarters? On the other hand, there
are indeed some quarters which want to break the unity of India.

SA:but there is a native Chhatisgarhi movement underway trying to
declare Chhatisgarhi a separate language. That this has been extremely
successful can be seen from the recent creation of a separate Chhatisgarh
state. Sooner or later, Chhatisgarhi is going to surface in censuses all
across the world as an independant language.
VA: Chhatisgarh is still a part of Madhya Pradesh.

SA: The concept of `monolithic Hindi' is a relic of a past era and arose
merely because there was a lack of awareness and conciousness of cultural
heritage amongst ethnic Bhojpuris, Mithilis and Rajasthanis in the early
1900s.
VA: Rather the Khari boli dialect is rapidly displacing these languages.

SA: As literacy spreads, these peoples are rediscovering their roots.
The power bloc which suppressed these languages for the past 50 years is now
in irreversible decline;
VA: Which power bloc?? If someone suffers fom persecution mania, it is not
the fault of others.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan  5 18:12:37 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 18:12:37 +0000
Subject: vAcaspatimizra
Message-ID: <161227054856.23782.654780702627110444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

N. Ganesan <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:


>vAcaspatimizra who is generally dated to mid-9th to 10th century.
>Sankara's date is usually backed from this vAcaspati's date. The
>existence of a Cambodian inscription mentioning one Sankara
>(R. Nagaswamy,  The date of Sankara, JOI (Baroda),  1962 says
>Cambodian inscription's Sankara is different from Adi Sankara)

Nagaswamy has his own reasons for doubting this, don't you think? If you
recall, he also wants Sankara's date to be in the BC period.

>and the vAcaspatimizra's 9/10th century have combined to create
>the late 8th/9th century date for Sankara. Perhaps, an Indian author
>forwarded the mid-9th century date for vAcaspati and, this caught a
>wide acceptance in the West. How many bhAmati mss. are in existence?
>Do all(or most) of them give colophons to 850 CE?
>

Inscriptions and their interpretation aside, there is concrete literary
evidence for vAcaspatimizra. bhAmatI colophons do not give the date of
composition. vAcaspati gives a date in a nyAya work of his, from which you
get either 840 CE or 975 CE, depending on whether you add 78 to or subtract
57 from the given date.

Vidyasankar




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jan  5 17:22:04 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 18:22:04 +0100
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054865.23782.13014864515701151734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajarshi Banerjee [SMTP:rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM] skrev 05. januar 2000
17:52:
> The scripts do help give languages some identity, but
>
> Languages are not differentiated by scripts, but by things like case endings
> grammatical forms, vocabulary.
>
> the different scripts in india can easily be thought of as different fonts
> of the same script. But the languages have more variation.

For the sake of curiosity, I can mention that the first Pakistani immigrants to
Norway did not want to learn Norwegian but preferred English. Since Norwegian
did not have an alphabet of its own, they did not accept Norwegian as a
separate language! However, they soon had to change their mind.

The difference in script is of course not a "professional" criterion, but it is
closely connected to group identity and thus a cultural matter. Hindi and Urdu
are in grammatical terms one language, but in terms of script and to some
extent vocabulary  they are two languages. And as we all know: the more Sans
kritic Hindi gets and the more Arabo-Persian Urdu gets, the more the mutual
intelligibility of the two idioms is reduced. An interesting aspect here is of
course that the more educated a person gets, the more s/he is able to master
precisely those elements that reduce mutual intelligibility. Thus Hindi and
Urdu speaking sweepers may understand each other quite well, whereas literati
may have problems unless they have taken the trouble of learning the other
party's idiom.

Regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Thu Jan  6 00:27:13 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 19:27:13 -0500
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054881.23782.15116906759324386153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/4/00 2:51:27 PM Central Standard Time, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO
writes:

> 1. Are all dialects of "Hindi" mutually intelligible?
>  2. Do all speakers of "Hindi" dialects regard their language as Hindi, and
> do
>  others share their feeling?
>
>  In other words: For Hindi to be "Hindi", you need mutual intelligibility
and
> a
>  broad consensus about which linguistic forms are Hindi and which are not.
> The
>  problem of politics arises if the political authorities decide that a
> certain
>  group is speaking Hindi whereas the members of that group disagree, or if
> the
>  dialect of one group defined or defining itself as Hindi speaking is more
or
>  less incomprehensible to other Hindi-speakers.

There was an Indian student pursuing graduate studies in linguistics at Penn
in the late 1970s. He had earlier studied linguistics at a university in
Delhi. (I do not remember if it was JNU or Delhi University.) He told me that
a linguistics professor at the university was involved in the processing of
linguistic data on the 1971 census returns. The census returns had shown that
people had mentioned many different local names for their mother tongues
based on the town or area.  The number of names were far more than those of
the major ones like Maithili, Bhojpuri, etc. However, the professor had all
those returns processed as having Hindi as the mother tongue! May be those
familiar with the 1971 census can shed more light on this.

(Doesn't Sahitya Academy recognize Maithili as a language?)

While a deliberate attempt seems to be under way for replacing various
dialects/languages spoken in Rajasthan, Punjab, UP, MP, and Bihar, etc. or
create a standard language for them with the official Hindi, the reverse is
happening with respect to Tamil. Tamil has had a standard form for more than
2 millennia. I have heard from Tamil scholars that some"intellectuals" have
been attempting to eliminate the standard Tamil from as many facets of
linguistic existence as possible.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Wed Jan  5 18:50:40 2000
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 19:50:40 +0100
Subject: vAcaspatimizra
Message-ID: <161227054860.23782.330394608739505756.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" wrote:

> Given the fluidity of chronological dates of Indian authors, the
> analyzing of vAcaspati's date is essential for knowing Sankara's age.
>
<snip>

>
> References on the dates of vAcaspatimizra? Does he belong to
> 10th century?
>
This is just off the cuff -
I think the most recent contribution to this issue is Walter Slaje,
"Untersuchungen zur Chronologie einiger NyAya-Philosophen", in: Studien
zur Indologie und Iranistik, 11/12 (1986), 245-278.
For the relative sequence of VAcaspati's works, see esp. Srinivasa Ayya
Srinivasan, "VAcaspatimiZras TattvakaumudI - ein Beitrag zur Textkritik
bei kontaminierter Ueberlieferung", Hamburg: Cram, de Gruyter & Co.
(1967), pp.54-64.

Slaje is mostly concerned with the *relative* chronology of Jayanta,
Trilocana, BhAsarvajJa, VyomaZiva and VAcaspati. Based on an examination
of the views of these philosophers on four different subject-matters,
Slaje concludes that they can be accorded three subsequent periods: (1)
Jayanta/VyomaZiva, active around 900 C.E., (2) Trilocana, whose main
period of activity occurs after that of Jayanta, (3) BhAsarvajJa as a
younger contemporary of VAcaspati, both of whom can be placed around the
middle of the 10th century *earliest*.
At the same time, the date of Udayana features as a terminus ante quem
for VAcaspati - since Udayana's LakSaNAvalI was composed 984/5 (Zaka
906), and since Udayana (a) wrote a commentary on VAcaspati's
NyAyavArttikatAtparyaTIkA and (b) Udayana defends VAcaspatimiZra against
JJAnaZrImitra (in combination with a few other factors, see Srinivasan).
Hence, a dating of VAcaspati, or, to be more accurate, his NyAya works in
the latter half of the 10th century seems plausible.

[There is also the issue of the NyAyasUcInibandha, attributed to
VAcaspati and dated 898. Srinivasan doubts the authorship of VAcaspati.
Certain scholars interpret this as a Vikrama-date = 841 C.E. Slaje thinks
that *if* the NSN is a work of V., then the date must belong to the
Zaka-era = 976/7 C.E.]

> The buddhist author, Jnanazrimitra and his disciple, Ratnakirti quote
> one vAcasapatimizra in the 11th century. They are referring to
> vAcaspatimizra who is generally dated to mid-9th to 10th century.
>
At least I have no idea how one can arrive at absolute dates for the
works of JJAnaZrImitra and RatnakIrti unless one presupposes an absolute
date for VAcaspati, or at least for those of his works that the two
Buddhist authors refer to - you might have a circular argument here, or
at least one that is so vague that it does not provide any clues about a
more precise dating of V.

Regards,

--
Birgit Kellner
Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and
Buddhist Studies
Universitaet Wien / Vienna University




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Wed Jan  5 22:25:47 2000
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 23:25:47 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <006e01bf56d9$46792660$db037bd4@deze-computer.pandora.be>
Message-ID: <161227054879.23782.17451849539999728269.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 18:29 2000-01-04 +0100, Dr. Koenraad Elst wrote:

>I leave you to figure out just who has an interest in denying the unity of
>Hindi, but fact is that any criterion which would break Hindi up into its
>dialects would break up most other languages as well.

One is interestingly reminded of the recent debate on conversions, with the
question of the unity of Hinduism (and criteria of belonging to Hindu fold)
in its center. Ugly motives and hidden interests suspected also then. But -
enough of that.

What for convenience sake is called Hindi linguistic area has several
centers and unstable peripheries. Historically, each of the components of
this continuum, whether they are treated as dialects or languages, is linked
to its own local center of political power, usually in control of a regional
or trans-regional market. Negating their separateness is as irrational as
denying their interrelatedness. Interrelatedness, however, is not unity.

By representing jointly the numerical data on the nuclear and peripheral
varieties of Hindi, the Web digest of the 1991 census constructs a new,
statistics grounded reality. The linguistic facts (functional
multilingualism) are replaced in it with the objectives of modern language
policies (one language standard).  Unity in Diversity is beginning to be
replaced by its easier variant: Unity in Unity.

Characteristically, the populace of the Hindi belt does not seem to be
worried by the lack of one specific name by which they could call themselves
(or could be called by others) - or are they? They well may be telling us
that their identity is built not around language, but around the traditional
mechanisms of exchange (goods, work/services, brides). Such mechanisms bind
people much more effectively than language or religion. Unfortunately, they
are hard to translate  into political idiom or administrative/management
categories.

Is it really possible to build a Hindi nation just by stabilizing the
constellation of Hindi dialects/languages around one fixed model of
linguistic expression? That remains to be seen. There are some obvious
advantages, and tempting prospects. But there are also costs to consider.
And, in my turn, I leave Dr. Elst figure out, what they might be.

With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland

P. S. I have always wondered why so much more attention  old-style Indology
devoted to what divides people than, rather, to what makes them want to be
together. Years ago my teachers spent quite a lot of time on hammering into
my poor head the quaintest genetic/typological classifications of Indian
languages and religions, but gave me nothing on the traditional institutions
that make trans-linguistic, trans-caste and trans-religion exchange
possible. They talked about great Indian dynasties and their wars, but gave
me no idea of the mechanisms of mediation used by local kingdoms to solve
their conflicts. They described pure forms of thought and poetry, but told
me nothing about trade activities of Buddhist monasteries, or about one
Ismail Jogi,  - or Tatig Nag, the devotee of Sib Mahadeo studying Ilm Quran

in the town of Gokal...

It's perhaps no matter of chance that my high school teachers used a similar
conceptual framework while describing the history of the Polish-German
relations. Also for them any cultural form that wouldn't fit the
Central-European Romantic definition of pure nationhood was automatically
suspect and if it deserved any serious attention, then only as an example of
national treason. As a result of a couple of World Wars the purely Polish
population is now finally separated from the purely German population by a
thin border line; no more mixed dialects, trans-national patterns of culture
(with their low-level informal systems of exchange); no more mixed
loyalties. If after crossing the border one wants to understand more than
left-right directions, one can always formally study the language - or hire
services of a professional interpreter.

Is it possible that some people responsible for the language policies in
India (and in Pakistan) got their education in schools with a history
program similar to the one taught in mine?

A. K.









------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ---------------------
Zagraj mecz z Fibakiem - www.aukcje-online.pl
Platforma - najwiekszy serwis aukcji internetowych w Polsce.
------------------------------------------------------------




From youmar at YAHOO.IT  Wed Jan  5 22:29:49 2000
From: youmar at YAHOO.IT (youri martini)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 00 23:29:49 +0100
Subject: Teixeira
Message-ID: <161227054874.23782.11789549770359691885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Who was Pedro Teixeira?
______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Il tuo indirizzo gratis e per sempre @yahoo.it su http://mail.yahoo.it




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jan  6 01:47:50 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 01:47:50 +0000
Subject: Varna and Jati
Message-ID: <161227054914.23782.650959289884439806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>
> Kailash Srivastava asked:
>
> >Under which varna does "Kayastha" fall?

Now under the sankiirn.a jaati called IAS (Indian Administrative Services), working
under the neo-kshatriyas called MP, MLA . If one is a clerk, one may be called
nimna-kaayastha. Stha (located ) in Kaayaa (bureau), hence kaayastha. But officer or
clerk, the kaayastha has retained his ancient characteristic mentioned by Kautilya,
taking bribe (utkoca).
Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 01:47:50 +0000]




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  6 14:25:58 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 06:25:58 -0800
Subject: zrIbhASya
Message-ID: <161227054893.23782.14596838366215296595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Ramanuja was to call Sankara a `crypto-Buddhist' (prachanna-bauddha)" [32]

[32] The definition can be found in Ramanuja's main work, his
commentary on Badarayana's Brahmasutra (see 'Sribha.sya, II.II.27)
(N. Isayeva, p. 14)

Does the Sribhashyam call Sankara as a "prachanna-bauddha"?

Regards,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  6 15:33:30 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 07:33:30 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054898.23782.16718644305634007987.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I wonder what "Power-block" Dr. Abbas has in mind. In India
>power has belonged to a class of people who think English is
>the only respectable language. PM Vajpayee's granddaughter
>can only speak English, it was reported. The educated,
>wealthy and influential young people in India today increasingly
>use Indian languages for talking with their servants and the
>like. Yashwant

Like PM's folks, CM Karunanidhi's grandchildren are studying in
English, and with the rise of English medium schools all over India,
is the position of English strengthening or weakening? Add to this,
the effect of CNN, e-mail and the Web. Note that the Net is still
an infant in India.  Only in the hands of a tiny elite - one can see
from the way they write to others. No longer just the Doordarshan &
Akashvani! In the Global village, as people get educated and
once the visa fence is surmounted, people travel abroad,
speaking C++.

Just looking at the Nagari conjuct-consonant alphabets
in Coulsen's book and in Madhav Deshpande's samskrtasubodhini's list
running to several pages. It was OK in old times when
language education by itself was the "total" education. Nowadays,
language is a mere tool, to master technology and get a job.

Along with the entrenchment of English, hope Indians go for
the Roman script. Germany has moved away from Gothic script;
After all, Brahmi script itself has origins in West Asia.
Passions aside, Roman script for Indian languages will lead to
greater standardization, uniformity, convergence and ease.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP  Wed Jan  5 23:48:51 2000
From: prince at OTSUMA.AC.JP (Matsumura)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 08:48:51 +0900
Subject: Judgement of Solomon
In-Reply-To: <1921CF75AD3@srv0.arts.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227054877.23782.3372781425309408698.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following articles discussed transmission of the story.

H.Matsumura, "Kobikisaiban denshotojo no shomondai," Setuwabungaku kenkyu 33
(1998), 197-121.
K. Nomura, "Kobikisaiban wo megutte," Mukashibanasi densetu kenkyu 16
(1991), 98-108.

The first deals with literal tradition, and the second oral one.

Regards
Hisashi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of John
> Brockington
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:16 PM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Judgement of Solomon
>
>
> Naseem Hines asks about sources of the Judgement of Solomon story.
>
> Almost certainly the earliest recorded instance of this tale is
> Biblical (1 Kings
> 3:16-28); this may have been original, but could equally have
> been adapted from a
> current oral narrative.  The Biblical account entered
> Judaeo-Christian-Muslim tradition;
> whether it was first Hebrew or Arab cannot be determined.
>
> References to the story as a European (? Christian-derived) and
> Jewish folk-tale can be
> found in Stith Thompson's "Motif-Index of folk literature", motif
> J 1171.1 (cf. the
> extension in J 1171.2 'The divided bride' -- 3 claimants! and J
> 1171.4 -- mares and
> colt) supplemented by Antti Aarne's "Types of the folktale", type AT 926.
>
> An early Indic source of a similar but not identical motif, and
> set in a different
> story, is the Jataka tale translated by van Buitenen ("Tales of
> ancient India", p.168)
> as 'Mahosadha's judgement'.  This may be an adaptation of the
> Solomon tale (or its
> source), or may have arisen independently as a fairly obvious
> illustration of the
> lengths to which a mother will go to protect her child -- a
> universal theme.
>
> Thompson's and Aarne's Indic references (detailed in Thompson and
> Balys, "Oral tales of
> India", and Thompson and Roberts, "Types of Indic oral tales"; no
> new references in
> Jason's "Supplement") are:
>
> J. Davidson, 'Folklore of Chitral', "The Indian Antiquary" 29:
> 249 (Kashmir)
>
> Sarah Davidson and Eleanor Phelps, 'Folk tales from New Goa,
> India', "Journal of
> American folklore" 50 :43-44 (Bombay)
>
> "North Indian Notes and Queries" 3: no.378 and 5: no.617 (Mirzapur, U.P.)
>
> G.R. Subramiah Pantulu, "Folklore of the Telugus" : 41 = "Ind.
> Antiq." 26: 111 no.18
> (Madras)
>
> (type 926C) "North Indian Notes and Queries" 4: no. 316 (Mirzapur, U.P.)
>
> (J 1171.4) J.H. Knowles, "Folk-tales of Kashmir": 255.
>
> At a fairly cursory glance, I have not found the variant you
> refer to in Ramanujan's
> "Folk tales from India"; please could you give me the reference?
>
> Many folk tales are common to South Asian and Arab traditions
> ('Aladdin' is perhaps the
> most famous), and determining the direction of spread -- if any
> -- is complex and
> hazardous.  The automatic assumption that international tales
> necessarily originated in
> India (which used to be popular) should be resisted!
>
> Best wishes, MARY BROCKINGTON
>
>
> sent on her behalf by John Brockington
> Professor J. L. Brockington
> Sanskrit, School of Asian Studies
> University of Edinburgh
> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
> Edinburgh   EH8 9LW     U.K.
>
> tel: +131 650 4174
> fax: +131 651 1258
>




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Jan  6 14:15:29 2000
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 09:15:29 -0500
Subject: POSITION ANNOUNCEMENT from SARAI
Message-ID: <161227054891.23782.7083418303843532892.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following job announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list
or listserv from the POSITION ANNOUNCEMENTS section of SARAI. Please
contact the job posters directly for any further information.
David Magier - SARAI

=====================================

Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:24:56 -0600
From: James Simon <simon at crlmail.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Project Manager Position - DSAL

The following is an advertisement for a grant-funded position to manage the
Digital South Asia Library project at CRL.  Please forward this to those
who may be qualified and interested.
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Center for Research Libraries
POSITION DESCRIPTION
Temporary Full-Time (Grant Funded for three years)

Position Title: Project Manager, Digital South Asia Library

SUMMARY
Responsible under the direction of the Principal Investigator for the
administration and development of the grant project entitled: "The Digital
South Asia Library: Electronic Access to Seminal South Asian Resources."
This project, funded at $540,000 for the three years of its duration, is
the second phase of the Digital South Asia Library (DSAL), begun under the
Association of Research Libraries' Global Resources Program.  The project
will produce on-line information about contemporary and historical South
Asia - including full-text documents, statistical data, electronic images,
cartographic representations, and pedagogical resources for language
instruction.  In addition, it will explore delivery on demand of page
images from South Asia, scanned from both paper and microform sources, and
will create Internet-based indexes to highly select journals in the
regional languages of South Asia.

The full text of the grant proposal may be found at
<http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/LibInfo/Subjects/SouthAsia/606.html>.

ESSENTIAL DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES include the following.  Other duties
may be assigned.

7 Coordinates the day-to-day operation of the grant project, ensuring all
activities are accomplished in a timely and efficient manner.

7 Oversees and implements all aspects of the program as described in
project proposal, including subcontracted work with the American and French
Research on the Treasury of the French Language (ARTFL).

7 Assists in the development of an on-line digital library for project
materials, including full-text documents, images, bibliographic databases,
GIS files, and other possible mediums such as sound files.  The digital
library will utilize distributed electronic databases and Unicode scripts
in the vernacular languages of South Asia.

7 Works with the Principal Investigator and project Co-Directors in
coordinating project activities in the U.S. with those in England and South
Asia.

7 Monitors the work and production schedules of a consortium of
institutions and subcontractors including the University of Chicago,
Columbia University, the British Library, the University of Oxford, the
Roja Muthiah Research Library (Chennai), and the Sundarayya Vignana Kendram
(Hyderabad).  Maintains regular communication with project participants and
addresses needs.

7 Monitors fiscal records, prepares financial reports.

7 Communicates project relevance, goals, activities, and accomplishments to
a variety of institutions in the United Sates and abroad.

7 Produces regular written project reports to funding agencies and to
various overseeing bodies such as ARL Library Directors and Collection
Development Officers.

7 Disseminates information on project activities and accomplishments
through the production of press releases, articles, brochures, and other
publications.

7 Represents the project and/or CRL at internal and external meetings, as
needed.

7 Explores opportunities for additional activities and/or funding for the
project.  Assists in the development of successive stages of activity for
DSAL.

QUALIFICATIONS  To perform this job successfully, an individual must be
able to perform each essential duty satisfactorily.  The requirements
listed below are representative of the knowledge, skill, and/or ability
required.  Reasonable accommodations may be made to enable individuals with
disabilities to perform the essential functions.

EDUCATION and/or EXPERIENCE
Masters degree in Library and Information Science (M.L.S.) or equivalent
>From an ALA-accredited program desirable; however other advanced degrees
considered; two to four years related experience and/or training in
Information Science; or equivalent combination of education and experience.
 Prior program management experience highly desirable.  Familiarity with
South Asian languages, culture, history, and geography.  Knowledge of
computers, data structures, and electronic environments and systems
necessary.  Experience with distributed management of electronic components
and familiarity with issues attending digital libraries.

LANGUAGE SKILLS
Exemplary communication skills, written and oral. Foreign language
abilities (South Asian) and cultural knowledge desired.  Ability to
initiate, lead, and team-build.  Demonstrated ability to work with diverse
groups of information professionals.  Ability to read, analyze, and
interpret technical journals, reports, financial reports, and legal
documents.  Ability to respond to common inquiries from customers,
regulatory agencies, or members of the business community.  Ability to
write speeches or articles for publication that conform to prescribed style
and format.  Ability to effectively present information to top management,
public groups, and/or boards of directors.

COMPUTER/TECHNICAL/ MATHEMATICAL SKILLS
Proficient computer knowledge working with computer application programs,
such as Word for Windows, Excel, Microsoft Office 97, electronic mail,
etc.; ability to develop web documents; and working knowledge of  HTML,
SGML, and similar concepts.  Knowledge of South Asia and its culture,
history, and geography.  Understanding of scholarly research and
bibliographic tools, especially global publishing and international
scholarship.  Ability to apply and understand general financial procedures
and concepts such as budgets, financial statements, collections, cost and
effect, etc.

Salary:  Minimum $32,900 per annum, commensurate with experience.

Closing Date:  Applications will be accepted until this position is filled.

Interested applicants should submit a letter of application and resume to:

Human Resources
Center For Research Libraries
6050 South Kenwood Ave.
Chicago, IL  60637




From Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU  Thu Jan  6 15:49:13 2000
From: Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Mehta, Shailendra)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 10:49:13 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics - Hindi
Message-ID: <161227054901.23782.11364236740552258851.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On the points raised by Abbas, Elst, Ganesan, Karp and Malaiya:

In connection with the number of Hindi speakers, I am surprised that no one
referred to one of the largest social surveys done in recent years, by the
magazine India Today in conjunction with ORG and MARG on the occasion of the
50th anniversary of India's independence. A representative sample of 12,651
Indians was used. They reported on a whole host of issues, but their
findings on language are particularly significant. They found that a full
71% of Indians said that they could understand Hindi. The breakdowns by
region were: North 94%, South 30%. They did not report the separate figures
for East and West. Further, 61% said that there should be a national
language; 77% said that the language should be Hindi. The breakdowns for the
latter were North 97%, East 85%, West 75% and South 31%. For additional
details look at the Issue of India Today, 18 August 1997.


Four other points.

1. One the opposition to Hindi seems to be declining in the South. The
recent issue of The-Week published from Kerala, reported the following:
"Hindi classes for TDP members
The latest addition to the conference hall of Andhra Bhavan is a blackboard.
All Telugu Desam MPs have to attend Hindi classes in the hall so that they
can function better in Parliament and outside. Party supremo Chandrababu
Naidu was astounded when he watched video clippings of the Lok Sabha
proceedings. Even the party leader in the Lok Sabha, Yerran Naidu, was at a
loss as he could not understand or respond easily in the national language.
The glamour girl of the party, Jayaprada, was the only exception. She made a
long speech in the Rajya Sabha in Hindi and even kept notes in Devnagari.
Lok Sabha Speaker G.M.C. Balayogi is another Telugu Desam MP who has shown
marked improvement in Hindi."

2. At Purdue University, where I am,  Indians overtook the Chinese as the
largest group of foreign students. There are 750 of them, with Indian
passports. This does not count the second generation Americans, of course,
of which also, there are many. It is interesting that in this group, which
has a fair sampling of all regions (though it is not representative
socially, of India, in that most are from the upper classes and castes), it
is hard to come across someone who does not understand Hindi. Indeed to
assert their identities as Indians, they regularly speak to each other in
Hindi, in corridors, in hallways and in the labs - cutting across regional
lines.  Hindi films, and Diwali and Republic Day functions (which too are
almost exclusively based on Hindi-film linked programs) bring them together.

3. Sanskritized Hindi is opposed by many in the North, who prefer
Persianized Hindi (I am comfortable with both) but Malayalam, Telugu,
Bengali, Gujarati etc.. speakers invariably find it easier to understand the
Sanskritized version. If I use words like saamish and niraamish to denote
non-vegetarian and vegetarian in Hindi (as is done on Railway signs in
India) I get raised eyebrows, but they are in common usage in other
languages. Indeed, if you read literary Punjabi, it is almost identical to
literary Hindi (for example editors are addressed in both as aadarNiya
sampaadak mahodaya). Not surprisingly, prominent authors in Punjabi write
effortlessly in Hindi as well - witness the example of Mahip Singh and
Amrita Pritam for example. Also, I saw two excellent movies recently with
large pan-Indian audiences (mostly non-native speakers of Hindi) - Sarfarosh
and Antarnaad. The former had a lot of Urdu words and invariably
susurrations would break out as to what this or that Persian word (including
the title) meant, and the questioners would ask in Telugu or Gujarati. With
Antarnaad, there was no problem.

4. One consequence of the earlier Southern Opposition to Hindi, and the
antagonism thereby generated, has been that the literature and thought of
the South has not really made a mark on the North. Punjabi, Bengali and
Marathi editions of novels often come out at the same time as their Hindi
translations. It is very unlikely for Southern authors, unless they happen
to be Jnanpith Award winners. As a result, even treasures of the South such
as the Tirukkural and Kampan Ramayana are literally unheard of in the North,
even though, they have much to teach us all, and even though they are
available in excellent Devanagari transliterations and Hindi translations. I
do hope that, more than anything else, that Southern consciousness, its
writing, its thought makes its mark on the North. And the Internet could
play a major role in that, when Unicode for Indian languages is fully
implemented and script becomes irrelevant in that any language could be read
in any script.


Shailendra Raj Mehta




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jan  6 09:51:18 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 10:51:18 +0100
Subject: SV: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054887.23782.17302165051828283401.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan [SMTP:Palaniappa at AOL.COM] skrev 06. januar 2000 01:27:

> While a deliberate attempt seems to be under way for replacing various
> dialects/languages spoken in Rajasthan, Punjab, UP, MP, and Bihar, etc. or
> create a standard language for them with the official Hindi, the reverse is
> happening with respect to Tamil. Tamil has had a standard form for more than
> 2 millennia. I have heard from Tamil scholars that some"intellectuals" have
> been attempting to eliminate the standard Tamil from as many facets of
> linguistic existence as possible.
>

This is interesting. Is this an attempt to introduce "the people's language",
is it some kind of dialect romanticism or is it an attempt to "modernize" the
language?

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jan  6 10:04:40 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 11:04:40 +0100
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054889.23782.4023549045371005432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Artur Karp [SMTP:hart at POLBOX.COM] skrev 05. januar 2000 23:26:

> P. S. I have always wondered why so much more attention  old-style Indology
> devoted to what divides people than, rather, to what makes them want to be
> together. Years ago my teachers spent quite a lot of time on hammering into
> my poor head the quaintest genetic/typological classifications of Indian
> languages and religions, but gave me nothing on the traditional institutions
> that make trans-linguistic, trans-caste and trans-religion exchange
> possible.

> It's perhaps no matter of chance that my high school teachers used a similar
> conceptual framework while describing the history of the Polish-German
> relations.

> Is it possible that some people responsible for the language policies in
> India (and in Pakistan) got their education in schools with a history
> program similar to the one taught in mine?....

Artur Karp points to a very interesting aspect of traditional history writing
and nationalism in Europe. However, there would seem to be changes on the way.
In my capacity as a translator, I have translated a fair number of European
Union Directives and Council of Europe recommendations, some of which deal
explicitly with regional/ethnic languages and identities. Here, the use of
regional languages and cultures is encouraged, and tolerance of other faiths
and lifestyles is preached. The European Union opts emphatically for Unity in
Diversity. In the case of some countries this may weaken the ties between
provinces that never lived happily together, but the assumption is that all
regions will be happily absorbed within the Grand Union. For the time being,
this policy seems to be working reasonably well. The European Union is growing
so quickly that its limbs are aching. This is also the way it has to be when
national states are supposed to join by an act of free will.

It is ironic that the Unity in Unity policy of modern India is a rerun of a
model tried and discarded in Europe. It reminds me of the relationship between
Norway and Sweden in the fifties and sixties. Everything that failed in Sweden
had to be tried in Norway, too. Where it also failed.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse




Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From LGoehler at AOL.COM  Thu Jan  6 16:06:45 2000
From: LGoehler at AOL.COM (Lars Goehler)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 11:06:45 -0500
Subject: JOB POSTING
Message-ID: <161227054904.23782.8089687682013009399.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>>>>>>>>forwarded message<<<<<<<<

***

Am Institut f?r Religionswissenschaft der Universit?t Heidelberg sind im
Rahmen eines durch die DFG gef?rderten Drittmittelprojekts zum 1.4.2000
Stellen f?r

3 wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiter/innen
Verg?tungsgruppe BAT IIa/2

(z.B. aus folgendenF?chern:
Alte Geschichte, Ethnologie, Indologie, Iranistik, Islamwissenschaft,
Philosophie, Religionswissenschaft, Soziologie, Theologie)

zu besetzen.


Im Rahmen des Projekts "Ritualistik und Religionsgeschichte: Zoroastrische
Rituale in wechselnden kulturellen Kontexten" sollen wissenschaftliche
Arbeiten zur Adaption, Akkomodation, Dokumentation, Finanzierung,
Interpretation, Organisation, Rezeption und Variation von (zoroastrischen)
Ritualen in unterschiedlichen internen und externen Kontexten in Geschichte
und Gegenwart entstehen. Erw?nscht ist historisches, methodisches,
theoretisches und thematisches cross-linking.

Voraussetzungen: Magister Artium (bzw. vergleichbare oder h?here
Qualifikation), gute Englischkenntnisse und Freude an interdisziplin?rer
Zusammenarbeit in einer Forschergruppe.

Bewerbungsunterlagen: Lebenslauf, Zeugnisse, evtl. Publikationsliste,
Gutachten eines Hochschullehrers/einer Hochschullehrerin, Skizzierung
m?glicher Forschungsvorhaben im Kontext des Projekts und R?ckblick auf
bisherige eigene Arbeiten.

Die Stellen sind auf drei Jahre befristet. Es besteht die M?glichkeit, im
Rahmen des Projekts Qualifikationsarbeiten (Dissertationen,
Habilitationsschriften) anzufertigen. Zugleich wird, in begrenztem Umfang,
die Mitarbeit bei administrativen Aufgaben erwartet.

Bewerbungen (m?glichst per e-mail) richten Sie bitte bis zum 31.1.2000 an:
Prof. Dr. Gregor Ahn (gregor.ahn at urz.uni-heidelberg.de)

oder:
Prof. Dr. Gregor Ahn
Institut f?r Religionswissenschaft
Akademiestr. 4-8
69117 Heidelberg

F?r Ausk?nfte steht Ihnen Dr. Michael Stausberg
(Michael.Stausberg at relhist.uu.se) zur Verf?gung.




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jan  6 19:23:56 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 11:23:56 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054922.23782.15763104528264150728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Even if we assume that indian scripts are derived from west asia.
>A paper plane flew in from west asia and was converted into a lear
>jet. Now we go back to the paper plane. The way english is
>represented by its alphabet is conceptually not a vast improvement
>over sumerian. The letters can mean so many things depending on
>context. And the speaker has to memorize each word. Its only the
>human brain which is peculiarly suited to memorizing a large number
>of context switches which makes the use such of such a poor
>conceptual system possible.

I am not sure that Indian scripts are lear jets contrasting with
paper planes. Agreed that grammar is well laid out (Panini &
TolkAppiyar) for Indian languages. But not the scripts. Why then
Roman script wins  in situations from tribal languages to Southeast
Asian languages  (abandoning their original letters from Pallavan
Grantha script). Apart from the Western dominance, Roman script's
simplicity is also an important factor.

Sanskrit or Tamil texts routinely appear in academic publications
in Roman script with diacriticals. Without diacritical marks,
the Harvard-Kyoto convention is used for the entire Monier-Williams
dictionary and the Cologne scheme has the entire Tamil Sangam
texts online.

Regards,
N. Ganesan




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Thu Jan  6 17:37:34 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 12:37:34 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054910.23782.3603426773935413360.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just looking at the Nagari conjuct-consonant alphabets
in Coulsen's book and in Madhav Deshpande's samskrtasubodhini's list
running to several pages. It was OK in old times when
language education by itself was the "total" education. Nowadays,
language is a mere tool, to master technology and get a job.

//I agree about the conjunct consonants.
Indian scripts can be made more efficient very easily without resorting to
the roman alphabet. In any case roman alphabets have to be modified to be
able to represent Indian languages or should we give up the way speak?

Along with the entrenchment of English, hope Indians go for
the Roman script. Germany has moved away from Gothic script;
After all, Brahmi script itself has origins in West Asia.
Passions aside, Roman script for Indian languages will lead to
greater standardization, uniformity, convergence and ease.

//Even if we assume that indian scripts are derived from west asia.
A paper plane flew in from west asia and was converted into a lear jet. Now
we go back to the paper plane. The way english is represented by its
alphabet is conceptually not a vast improvement over sumerian. The letters
can mean so many things depending on context. And the speaker has to
memorize each word. Its only the human brain which is peculiarly suited to
memorizing a large number of context switches which makes the use such of
such a poor conceptual system possible.

//Mathematics is less forgiving and we should remember that the world is now
using the place value notation which Indians used very early in history.
Imagine calculus, engineering, computer/microprocesser design based on roman
numerals and its associated algebra.

//The sanskrit or tamil alphabet is a powerful abstraction, something on the
lines of the periodic table of elements or taxonomy in biology.

sincerely

R. Banerjee




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jan  6 18:55:48 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 13:55:48 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054917.23782.10004107362668121855.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Rajarshi Banerjee said:

<<Even if we assume that indian scripts are derived from west asia.
A paper plane flew in from west asia and was converted into a lear
jet.>>

True engough.

<<Now we go back to the paper plane. The way english is represented
by its
alphabet is conceptually not a vast improvement over sumerian. The
letters
can mean so many things depending on context. And the speaker has to
memorize each word. Its only the human brain which is peculiarly
suited to
memorizing a large number of context switches which makes the use
such of
such a poor conceptual system possible.>>

Come on, it's not _that_ bad.  If you were raised in India, surely
you had phonics, unlike the idiotic "total language" system used in
much of the US nowadays (learn each word separately).  Indeed, some
students of the question argue that the spelling in some ways
represents the deep structure of the language

//




From RMcDermott at BARNARD.EDU  Thu Jan  6 19:28:02 2000
From: RMcDermott at BARNARD.EDU (Rachel McDermott)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 14:28:02 -0500
Subject: CARB fonts: proposed character set
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001051000590.643-200000@pune.oriental.cam. ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227054925.23782.6531033645095978069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What a wonderful idea!  Thank you for adding this supplement to the CSX+
font.
I'm sorry, but I missed your earlier announcement.   I hope it is not too
late to
add these 16 characters:

For rendering Bengali transliteration:

a-candrabindu
a-macron-candrabindu
e-candrabindu
i-chandrabindu
i-macron-candrabindu
o-candrabindu
u-candrabindu
u-macron-candrabindu

and their capitalized versions

A-candrabindu
A-macron-candrabindu
E-candrabindu
I-chandrabindu
I-macron-candrabindu
O-candrabindu
U-candrabindu
U-macron-candrabindu

Many, many thanks.  -- Rachel McDermott


At 10:25 AM 01/05/2000 +0000, you wrote:
>A few weeks ago I announced a plan to launch a set of fonts to supplement
>the Times Norman and CSX+ fonts. These were to be called CARB, standing
>for "Character/Accent RagBag", and were to contain whatever weird and
>wonderful accented characters Indologists require that are not already
>found in the standard fonts.
>
>I have received numerous suggestions, and I attach to this message a
>definition file listing (and assigning encoding slots to) the characters
>which I propose to include in CARB. Final suggestions are welcome; there
>are still 24 vacant slots, so if you have a burning need for
>n-underring-macron-acute, now is your chance!
>
>After a few days to allow people to comment I shall build and release the
>fonts.
>
>John Smith
>
>--
>Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
>Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
>Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
>Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html
>




From athr at LOC.GOV  Thu Jan  6 19:42:58 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 14:42:58 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054927.23782.4519089449417231828.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My apologies for hitting the wrong button.  I meant to cancel the
message just posted, deciding it was getting off the subject matter of
the list, but apparently hit send thereby dispatching incomplete
sentences.

Allen




From HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE  Thu Jan  6 15:06:54 2000
From: HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE (Heinz Werner Wessler)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 16:06:54 +0100
Subject: vital statistics: Hindi-Gujarati etc.
Message-ID: <161227054895.23782.15362162343353885156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some remarks to some of the interesting arguments used in the "vital statistics"
debate over the last few days:

"The speech of each village differs slightly from the next, without loss of
mutual intelligibility, all the way from Assam to Afghanistan." (Masica, The
Indo-Aryan Languages, 1991, p.25. See also Shapiro/Schiffman, Language and
Society in India, 1981, p.16ff. etc. But this is only part of the truth.

The "language versus dialect" issue is always pending - the changes in
classification from one census to the other are a clear indicator of this
linguistic bias: Census 1921: 188 languages, 49 dialects (colonial India) -
1951: 845 "mother tongues" (languages and dialects) - 1961: 1652 (the highest
number) - in 1971, the languages were reduced to 105, since it includes
languages only, if the number of mother tongue speakers is higher than 10.000.

Usually, the term "Hindi" is ambiguous: It could mean a group of dialects,
somehow intelligible to each other. Accidentally, Khari Boli would be the
accepted lingua franca by its speakers (or Braj, Sadhukari etc. earlier).
"Hindi" could also mean "Modern Standard Hindi", based on Khari Boli, the
standard version of the language of some modern Indian states from Rajasthan to
Bihar.

Standardization and the spread of the standardized version of the language is an
ongoing process and based on political will, disturbed only by the growing
regionalism. Regional languages/dialects are obviously gaining ground in some
areas. Dogri is in some ways a typical example: After the Kashmir-crisis became
virulent, its development into a literary language is supported by state funds -
there is a Dogri Academy (like the Rajasthani Academy etc.), kavi--sammelans,
novel writing etc. in Dogri. I don't think, this is a challenge to /Sudh Hind-i
as prestige language no.2 in a town like Jammu. Neither is Marvari (or any other
form of Rajasthani) a challenge for Hindi in Rajasthan. Personally, I am not
convinced, whether the fascinating multilingualism in India will necessarily be
reduced in the course of development (as everywhere else). The compact
Hindi-belt could also be split up into pieces of individual linguistic zones
with an internal standardization on the long run. Different from today, romantic
ideas on languages and their relation to nation-states could at some point of
time turn against Hindi.

It is interesting that Modern Standard Hindi has won over Rajasthan in the past,
but not Gujarat. Similarly, Assami and Oriya remained independent from Bengali,
but the "Chittagong-dialect" gave up its separate identity. Could anyone on the
list comment on this?

A spontaneous observation, which could form the starting point of this
discussion: Mirabai is claimed by the Hindiwallahs as one of their own - at the
same time she is a genuine Gujarati-author in Gujarati text books (Vidyapati's
case in the east may be similar)! Her language is something like "Old Western
Rajasthani" (Tessitori).

Heinz Werner Wessler


Dr. Heinz Werner Wessler
Bergstr.27A
D-53844 Troisdorf
Fon/Fax +49-228-455125




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Thu Jan  6 21:13:15 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 16:13:15 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054930.23782.2034223376308191523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am not sure that Indian scripts are lear jets contrasting with
paper planes. Agreed that grammar is well laid out (Panini &
TolkAppiyar) for Indian languages. But not the scripts.

// yes grammar, but what about phonology. Indian scripts are probably the
only serious atempts at sound classification based on point of articulation
voicedness aspiration etc. conjuct consonants can be done away with a simple
modification which takes away the default minimal short vowel associated
with all nagari consonants. Lets have an a kI mAtrA.

Apart from the Western dominance, Roman script's
simplicity is also an important factor.

// One can easily think of schemes which are more efficient than nagari or
english for e.g. 5 basic consonants( k,ch,T,t,p) 3-4 specifiers for
frication voicing aspiration etc 5 short vowels with long versions 2
semivowels ..sibilants..etc such a scheme could easily cover most earthly
languages with less characters than english. Dominance of english is another
matter.

Sanskrit or Tamil texts routinely appear in academic publications
in Roman script with diacriticals. Without diacritical marks,
the Harvard-Kyoto convention is used for the entire Monier-Williams
dictionary and the Cologne scheme has the entire Tamil Sangam
texts online.

// How about a roman alpabet which goes like a, A, i, I.. instead of
haphhazard abcd..




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Thu Jan  6 16:56:15 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 17:56:15 +0100
Subject: zrIbhASya
In-Reply-To: <20000106142558.68946.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054907.23782.15816579990590969649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Does the Sribhashyam call Sankara as a "prachanna-bauddha"?

Without explicitly mentioning Sankara, the passage cited (2.2.27) does say
that the arguments against the (Yogacara) doctrine of 'perception only'
(i.e., the unreality of subject and object) have already been dealt with in
connection with the refutation of 'crypto-Buddhism in the guise of Vedic
teachings' (vedavaadacchadmapracchannabauddha) -- obviously Advaita.

There is also a supposed Padmapurana passage making use of this term:
maayaavaadam asacchaastra.m prachannabauddham ucyate, etc. However, I have
only seen these lines quoted in modern, apologetic Vaishnava texts; I can't
say whether they are really there in the Purana MSS.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 01:59:11 2000
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 17:59:11 -0800
Subject: death and Theravada Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227054932.23782.18336225439548916000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Listmembers,

In the Pali canon, where might one read about death?

thank you

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 02:20:43 2000
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 18:20:43 -0800
Subject: Good book on Tantra and BhArtrhari/Nov. inquiry
Message-ID: <161227054935.23782.404219604178969584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nanda Chandran wrote:

I've seen one book by Natalia Isvaseya, where she
seems to be trying to
relate BhArtrhari to GaudapAda. Any comments on the
quality of this work?

See these reviews:

Ashok Aklujkar
Journal of the American Oriental Society
volume 118 no 4 (Oct. 1998)

Stephen Kaplan
Journal of Asian Studies
volume 56 no 1 (Feb 1997)





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 03:16:00 2000
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 19:16:00 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics - Hindi
Message-ID: <161227054937.23782.4633448973162697959.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- "Mehta, Shailendra" <Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU> wrote:
> On the points raised by Abbas, Elst, Ganesan, Karp and Malaiya:
>
..

> language; 77% said that the language should be Hindi. The breakdowns for the
> latter were North 97%, East 85%, West 75% and South 31%.

The dramatic drop in support for Hindi in the south above figures only
negates your point. Does it not?



>For additional
> details look at the Issue of India Today, 18 August 1997.
>
>
> Four other points.
>
..
> Naidu was astounded when he watched video clippings of the Lok Sabha
> proceedings. Even the party leader in the Lok Sabha, Yerran Naidu, was at a
> loss as he could not understand or respond easily in the national language.

There is no such thing as *the* national language of India and there will never
be one unless India is split into multiple sovereign states. There are nearly
15 *national languages* as recognized by the Constitution of India.

> The glamour girl of the party, Jayaprada, was the only exception. She made a
> long speech in the Rajya Sabha in Hindi and even kept notes in Devnagari.
> Lok Sabha Speaker G.M.C. Balayogi is another Telugu Desam MP who has shown
> marked improvement in Hindi."
>
..> assert their identities as Indians, they regularly speak to each other in
> Hindi,
>in corridors, in hallways and in the labs - cutting across regional
> lines.  Hindi films, and Diwali and Republic Day functions (which too are
> almost exclusively based on Hindi-film linked programs) bring them together.

:-)) How scientific is this "survey"?

>
..>
> 4. One consequence of the earlier Southern Opposition to Hindi, and the
> antagonism thereby generated, has been that the literature and thought of
> the South has not really made a mark on the North.

It is more important to preserve the furture of the native langauges and narrow
their scope than to kill them and sell their corpses to a larger audience.



> to be Jnanpith Award winners. As a result, even treasures of the South such
> as the Tirukkural and Kampan Ramayana are literally unheard of in the North,

Kamba ramayana has made its mark in the North; accorindg  to UVS Iyer in his
book "piRkAlattup pulavarkaL" a compendium of "latter day poets", Thulasidas
got inspired by kumarakurupara swamikaL's lectures on kampa rAmAyaNa  at the
varaNasi caiva mutt (which he established with the financial assistance of a
muslim ruler) to compose his version of ramayana.

And even Valmiki ramayaNa's Skt. version owes quite a bit to the Southern
tradition. From "The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their milieu and Their Sanskrit
Counterparts" by George Hart, University of California Press, 1975, ISBN
0-520-02672-1" page 278 ("Tamil Elements in Indo-Aryan"):
"In the Ramayana and the Buddhacarita, these southern themes become quite
prominent, a fact partly responsible, I believe, for the Ramayana's
conventional position as the Adikavya, the first Sanskrit kavya. In my opinion
the relative newness of the southern poetic elements in the Ramayana and the
Buddhacarita accounts for their clumsy treatment in those two works, and, since
they are quite important for the effects the authors wish to achieve in those
works, this accounts at least in part for the inferior poetic quality of those
poems."

And under what compulsion did these influences take place?

If Indians truly care about India's cultural and political future, they should
stop imposing one langauge and one culture on unwilling and unneeding people.
There is such thing as cultural ecology just as there is biological ecology.
Let us preserve the germ plasms of different heritages of the world.
Let Indians undersatnd that unity is different from  uniformity.

>
> Shailendra Raj Mehta

P.Chandrsekaran.

>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 03:48:09 2000
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 19:48:09 -0800
Subject: pavamana sukta
Message-ID: <161227054940.23782.11293611525702989373.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anybody tell me where the pavamana sukta occurs in
the rigveda and if possible also its significance!

Thanks,
Nikhil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Thu Jan  6 19:00:10 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 20:00:10 +0100
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054919.23782.15600671059637264632.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt [SMTP:abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN] skrev 04. januar 1980 02:21:
>
> EU has now chosen English (standardised)for linking, then why has Hindi been
> regarded a
> demand that shall subsume other Indian languages and dialects ?

I am not sure if this is an entirely correct formulation. All EU legal
documents are routinely published in English and French. They are then
translated into the various EU languages, such as German, Swedish etc., all of
which versions have equal legal status. For this purpose, the EU has a huge
translation department. The Council of Europe also entertains a translation
department. The problem of course arises when speakers of as different
languages as Spanish and (eventually) Polish are to communicate within EU fora.
Here, a reduced number of languages would have practical value.  But if English
has been chosen for linking, I would like to know how the French (and Germans)
reacted to that. I would be grateful for some source material here!

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From perichandra at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 06:39:28 2000
From: perichandra at YAHOO.COM (Periannan Chandrasekaran)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 22:39:28 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054945.23782.4220892519242280734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:
> In a message dated 1/6/00 12:05:04 PM Central Standard Time,
> abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes:
>
> > Indian states were made by Indians
> > following the
> >  post eighteenth century  model of European nation states carved largely on
>
> > language
> >  basis.
> ?
>
> >  I would like to ask Indologist to comment if any 19th century  Indian
> would
> > have said
> >  that he /she is Tamilian, Maliyali, Bengalii, or Hindi-bhaas.ii? Did
> bhaas.
> > aa make up
> >  identity as of now ?
> >
>
> I am sorry to disappoint the promoters of the theory that sees the
> language-based identity as an European import. We have incontovertible proof
> that Tamils called themselves tamizkkuTi/tamizan2 living in the land of tamiz
>
> called tamizakam/tamiznATu at least 1500 years earlier than the 19th century.
>
>  Some of these facts have already been presented in Indology. Once more let
> me give a few examples.
>
..

cilappathikAram of the above indicated antiquity from which Palanippan cited
abundant evidence for langauge-based identity has a very interesting passage
that juxtaposes Tamil identity and "Aryan" identity in rival relationship:
In the words of the cabinet member of the Cheral emperor cegkutyuvan2
who, in the imminent departure to the North on a war campaign, recalls the a
battle scene from an earlier engagement with the Aryans:
"
vaa AriyaroTu vaN tamiz mayakkattu un2
kaTa malai vETTam en2 kaN pulam piriyAtu" (vajcik kANTam)


"In the battle between the northern Aryans and the well-endowed Tamils, [there
took place] your elephant-like marauding of the ememies which still has not
left my field of sight".

Note that from the usage of the word "tamiz" cilapathikAram views the conflict
involving the Cheran empire which was just one of the three kingdoms of the
Tamil land (which regularly fought with each other) as between all Tamils and
Aryans.

Later at the end of the same chapter as the above verse, the Cheran emperor
issues orders to send a document of declaration of war to particular Northern
kings [who had insulted *Tamil's* valor thus instigating this campaign in the
first place] bearing the royal insignias of *all* the three Tamil dynasties not
just that of the Cheran dynasty!


>
> One cannot ask for a better evidence than this.
ditto here again.

>
> I wonder why some Indians keep giving credit to Europeans for language-based
> identity and nationalism in India in spite of clear evidence to the contrary.
>
> The only way for this Indian view to make sense is if Tamilnadu was not part
> of the Indian state. After all, the Tamil country was not part of the Mauryan
>
> empire either.:-)
>
> Regards
> S. Palaniappan
>

P.Chandrasekaran.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Fri Jan  7 04:29:21 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 00 23:29:21 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054942.23782.11776382996548445504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/6/00 12:05:04 PM Central Standard Time, 
abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes:

> Indian states were made by Indians 
> following the
>  post eighteenth century  model of European nation states carved largely on 
> language
>  basis. 
?

>  I would like to ask Indologist to comment if any 19th century  Indian 
would 
> have said
>  that he /she is Tamilian, Maliyali, Bengalii, or Hindi-bhaas.ii? Did bhaas.
> aa make up
>  identity as of now ?
>  

I am sorry to disappoint the promoters of the theory that sees the 
language-based identity as an European import. We have incontovertible proof 
that Tamils called themselves tamizkkuTi/tamizan2 living in the land of tamiz 
called tamizakam/tamiznATu at least 1500 years earlier than the 19th century. 
 Some of these facts have already been presented in Indology. Once more let 
me give a few examples.

vaiyaka varaippil tamizakam kETpa (puR. 168.18)

taN tamiz vEli tamiznATTu akam ellAm (par.ti. 9.1)

The above one even defines tamiznATu (Tamil country) as the place bounded by 
the language Tamil

The following cilappatikAram lines make abundantly clear the geographical 
extent of this country. It defines the Tirupati hills and Cape Comorin as 
forming the boundaries of the country where Tamil is spoken.

neTiyOn2 kun2Ramum toTiyOL pauvamum 
tamiz varampu aRutta taN pun2al nal nATTu  (cil. 8.1-2)

The language-based self-appellation of Tamilians, tamizkkUTikaL, can be seen 
in the following line.

tAtin2 an2aiyar taN tamizkkuTikaL  (par.ti. 8.5)

The word  tamizan2 can be seen in the 7th century tEvAram of appar.

Ariyan2 kaNTAy; tamizan2 kaNTAy; aNNAmalai uRaiyum aNNal kaNTAy;    (tEv. 
6.23.5)

Here tamizan2 (Tamilian) is contrasted from the Ariyan2 (Aryan) long before 
Max Muller. Even a cursory reading of cilappatikAram will confirm that this 
contrast was even more ancient.

Finally, the vaiSNavite saint pUtattAzvAr called himself tamizan2 (Tamilian)  
in the following line.

perum tamizan2 nallEn2 peritu (nAl. 2255.4)

One cannot ask for a better evidence than this.

I wonder why some Indians keep giving credit to Europeans for language-based 
identity and nationalism in India in spite of clear evidence to the contrary. 
The only way for this Indian view to make sense is if Tamilnadu was not part 
of the Indian state. After all, the Tamil country was not part of the Mauryan 
empire either.:-)

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jan  7 00:03:05 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 00:03:05 +0000
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054950.23782.14252124202206682849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> All EU legal
> documents are routinely published in English and French. They are then
> translated into the various EU languages,
>
> But if English
> has been chosen for linking, I would like to know how the French (and Germans)
> reacted to that. I would be grateful for some source material here!

I must clarify that my comment on English in EU was not restricted to the deliberations
of the EU legislature and executive but to the whole socio-cultural entity of EU.
The popularity of English as link at cultural level in EU has gone up by leaps and
bounds in a decade. EU is a bigger market for American films now, more English medium
courses are being offered in universities (to lure Indian students the French advertise
that Indians can take degrees from France studying in English), there is a great rush
for learning English among the young Greeks (dozens of teaching shops ,"frontisterio",
have come up in Athens in a decade), the Onassis Prize for literature requires that
entries be submitted in English or Greek translations only, many American Universities
have opened distant campuses in Europe, the fresh entrants to diplomatic services prefer
to polish their English and translation of a good book into English is any publisher's
desired investment.

Let us face it, the EU officially may translate documents into several languages, but
the people shall always prefer one link language. As linguistic nationalism subsides, in
Europe and India alike, the link languages, English and Hindi respectively, shall come
to occupy bigger spaces.

Bharat Gupt

[admin note: changed date from Fri, 4 Jan 1980 00:03:05 +0000]




From emstern at NNI.COM  Fri Jan  7 08:00:46 2000
From: emstern at NNI.COM (Elliot Stern)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 03:00:46 -0500
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
In-Reply-To: <20000105194956.5570.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227054957.23782.4980561149762252635.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

on 1/5/00 2:49 PM, N. Ganesan at naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM wrote:


> vAcaspati's nyAya works, dated in the late 10th century, will pose
> a problem for accepting 700 CE as Sankara's date. It is more likely
> that Sankara flourished around 900 CE, give or take a few decades.

I fail to see a strong connection between problem of vAcaspati's date, and
the question of zagkara's.

> Also, Kunjunni Raja in ALB, v.24, 1960 has given arguments that
> go against 700 CE date for Sankara. Kunjunni informs that
> for Santarakshita (705-62) and Kamalasila (713-63), Sankara's
> teachings were unknown.

While zAntarakSitaH and KamalazIlaH evidently do not take any notice of
zaGkaraH, this silence hardly proves that they lived before him, or that he
lived afterwoods.  Indeed I would argue against this.

In his tattvasaGgrahapaJjikA, kamalazIlaH refers to umbekah by the name
uvveyakaH, and quotes from zlokavArtikatAtparyaTIkA. This same umbekaH has
also written a commentary of maNDanamisra's bhAvanAvivekaH; in this
commentary he also quotes a verse from maNDana's probably later work
vibhramavivekaH. Ganganath Jha, editor of the commentary to bhAvanAvivekaH,
and others, have reasonably suggested that umbekaH wrote his commentary some
considerable time after bhAvanAvivekaH was written (50+ years), since he
mentions a number of variant readings. maNDanaH, in turn, partly paraphrases
one argument from zaGkara's brahmasUtrabhASyam, and appears to refer to
zaGkara's views in  at least two other instances (see Allen Wright Thrasher,
"The dates of MaNDana Mizra and ZaMkara" in WZKS 23 (1979), pages 117-139,
especially pages 120-129).

Even if we take the date of kamalazIla's departure for Tibet (about 790 CE)
as the date for his completing the tattvasaGgrahapaJjikA, and assume that
umbekaH wrote his bhAvanAvivekaH commentary a considerable time after the
zlokavArttikatAtparyaTIkA (and even after kamalazIlaH left for Tibet),
maNDanaH and also zaGkaraH could scarcely have lived much later than 760 CE.
If we allow kamalazIlaH to have completed his commentary some years earlier,
and assume that the ink had dried for some years on umbeka's commentary or
commentaries before kamalazIlaH referred to one of them, we can see that
both zaGkaraH and maNDanaH may well have lived in the late 7th century to
early eight century.


Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
United States of America
Telephone: 215-747-6204
email: emstern at nni.com




From hart at POLBOX.COM  Fri Jan  7 02:05:15 2000
From: hart at POLBOX.COM (Artur Karp)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 03:05:15 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <12D2AD98.7B66@del3.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054952.23782.2495806285105266550.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 01:21 1980-01-04 +0000, Bharat Gupt wrote:
>Artur Karp wrote:
>> What for convenience sake is called Hindi linguistic area has several
>> centers and unstable peripheries. Historically, each of the components of
>> this continuum, whether they are treated as dialects or languages, is
linked
>> to its own local center of political power, usually in control of a
regional
>> or trans-regional market.
>
>I am anxious to know if in ancient times the same situation prevailed in
the regions
>(Madhyades'a, Udici, Pancaal,Magadha etc.,) now controled by Hindi and its
variety.
>What was the bhaas.aa/praakita situation then ? Was there rivalry between
these
>languages (Aavantika, Maagadhii, Ardhamaagadhii, etc,  to control political
power and
>market and in what way ?  If not, why so ?

Folk wisdom has it short-cuts should be avoided - as they usually turn out
to be long-cuts. I do apologize for creating one. Let me then reformulate my
earlier statement. <<Historically, each of the components of this
continuum... was linked in its development to a local center of political
power; each of such centers usually in control of a regional or
trans-regional market.>>

Looking at what happens at present, one may assume that also in the past
entering any kind of transaction in multilingual/multicultural millieu
presupposed ability to negotiate for and effectively use a proper (that
means:
situation-specific) instrument of communication - social dialect,
territorial dialect, other language, link language. In their colloquial
forms the dialects of the Hindi linguistic area are end-results of such
processes of negotiation and adjustment. If this is so, then the main
characteristics of the colloquial dialects should mirror  the language
habits of the possessors of  the largest number of important transactions,
i.e. the most influential groups of local organizers of production and trade
(land-owners. merchant guilds, court).

Some rivalries for the rights to such transactions may have been presented
in the guise of language/religion conflicts. I would be very much grateful
for the List Members' comments on that. Any early historical examples?

>I do not know if even the most fanatic proponents of Hindi believe or want
a "Hindi
>nation". They have undoubtedly ask for much of the space that is controlled
by English
>in education, administration, and business for "linking" the country. >
>it does not go against literary prizes being given for Bundelkhandii,
>Chattisgarhi, Brijbhaas.aa or Avadhii or Rajasthaani and a dozen other
bhaas.aas.

No one, I believe, denies the ability of Khari-Boli to function as a
link-language. But expressions like: "...who has an interest in denying the
unity of Hindi..." suggest that a much greater future might be planned for it.


With regards,

Artur Karp
University of Warsaw
Poland

P.S. According to recent rumors that have reached this provincial town of
Warsaw, not one, but three new States are being planned to be created:
Chattisgarh, Uttarkhand and Jharkhand. Any truth in it?

A.K.






------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] ---------------------
Zagraj mecz z Fibakiem - www.aukcje-online.pl
Platforma - najwiekszy serwis aukcji internetowych w Polsce.
------------------------------------------------------------




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  7 12:21:42 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 04:21:42 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054968.23782.17769744576429011953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Mathematics is less forgiving and we should remember that the world
>is now using the place value notation which Indians used very early in
>history. Imagine calculus, engineering, computer/microprocesser design
>based on roman numerals and its associated algebra.
>The sanskrit or tamil alphabet is a powerful abstraction, something on the
>lines of the periodic table of elements or taxonomy in biology.

   The roman letters are preferred over the indian kind and, Indian
  place value notation in the world. Both for efficiency.

   The "powerful abstraction" of Sanskrit/Tamil alphabets are 100 %
  retained even while writing in roman.

-------------

>yes grammar, but what about phonology. Indian scripts are probably the only
>serious atempts at sound classification based on point of articulation
>voicedness aspiration etc. conjuct consonants can be done away with a
>simple modification which takes away the default minimal short vowel
>associated with all nagari consonants. Lets have an a kI mAtrA.

   Is Phonology not a part of grammatical analysis? Transliteration
in Roman in no way reduces any specialty of Indian phonology.

>One can easily think of schemes which are more efficient than nagari
>or english for e.g. 5 basic consonants( k,ch,T,t,p) 3-4 specifiers for
>frication voicing aspiration etc 5 short vowels with long versions 2
>semivowels ..sibilants..etc such a scheme could easily cover most earthly
>languages with less characters than english. Dominance of english is
>another matter.

  Yes, we can think of many things; However, consideration can be
given to the roman script applied world-wide successfully already.

>How about a roman alpabet which goes like a, A, i, I.. instead of
>haphhazard abcd..

  That is exactly what is done while transliterating Indian
languages.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  7 14:26:59 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 06:26:59 -0800
Subject: zrIbhASya
Message-ID: <161227054975.23782.760448137937488834.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<<
Without explicitly mentioning Sankara, the passage cited (2.2.27) does
say that the arguments against the (Yogacara) doctrine of 'perception
only' (i.e., the unreality of subject and object) have already been
dealt with in connection with the refutation of 'crypto-Buddhism in
the guise of Vedic teachings' (vedavaadacchadmapracchannabauddha) --
obviously Advaita.

There is also a supposed Padmapurana passage making use of this term:
maayaavaadam asacchaastra.m prachannabauddham ucyate, etc. However,
I have only seen these lines quoted in modern, apologetic Vaishnava
texts; I can't say whether they are really there in the Purana MSS.
>>>

Mr. Mani Varadarajan's statement in this list may have to be revised:
 >Just FYI, Ramanujacharya never referred to Sankara or his philosophy
 >of nirviSesha advaita as "prachanna bauddha".  Although Vedanta
 >Desika (a 14th century Visistadvaitin) uses the term at least once,
 >it is primarily a favorite of the Dvaitin AnandatIrtha and his
 >followers.


Grateful to see if the Padmapurana quote is in the purana itself,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jan  7 13:18:18 2000
From: chouhan at BLR.VSNL.NET.IN (Chouhan Electronic Informatics P Ltd.)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 08:18:18 -0500
Subject: Marriage between cousins
In-Reply-To: <200001071312.SAA08527@giasmd01.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054973.23782.12412777599514633011.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Marriage between stars of same kind cannot happen.

It is simple.

Ramesh

At 06:40 PM 01/07/2000 +0500, you wrote:
>At 1/5/00 4:38:00 PM, you wrote:
>>Is the practice of marrying one's maternal uncle's
>>daughter prevalent amongst Tamil brahmins. Is it
>>dependent on the subsect ?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Nikhil
>>
>I cannot say it is actively persued; but it is not discouraged. it does
happen, irresepective of region and subsects. Please
>read 'Tamil Brahmins' by N.Subrahmanian for elucidation.
>
>With regards,
>RM.Krishnan.
>
>




From Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH  Fri Jan  7 07:50:37 2000
From: Francois.Obrist at BCU.UNIL.CH (Francois Obrist)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 08:50:37 +0100
Subject: Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
Message-ID: <161227054955.23782.2626522929287314741.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A tous un tres bon millenium (avec une annee d'avance ?!),

Je cherche des renseignements sur un guru nomme Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
fondateur de l'association l'Art de vivre (The Art of Living:
http://www.artofliving.org/) qui n'est repertorie dans aucun dictionnaire
des mouvements religieux. Merci de tous commentaires positif ou negatifs
sur ce personnage (commentaires autres que ceux presentes sur son propre
site).

Tout de bon

Francois Obrist

Francois Obrist
Section de langues et civilisations orientales
Bibliotheque cantonale et universitaire de Lausanne
CH-1015 Lausanne
e-mail: Francois.Obrist at BCU.unil.ch




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jan  7 17:02:40 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 09:02:40 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054985.23782.14877986733028892875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG>> Apart from the Western dominance, Roman script's
NG>> simplicity is also an important factor.

<<<
Where is the simplicity ? If most Roman alphabets  have to be given
diacritical marks or many have to be combined to indicate sounds
absent in European tongues, their number in practical usage goes
above fifty as with Indian alphabets. The problem is not of the
script but of the sounds. If they are more in Indian languages,
then there is more to write also no matter in what way.
>>>

  The simpliity is in the samyuktaaksharams. Also, the nAgari
lacks the "puLLi" concept of tolkAppiyam, hence there
is a problem whether there is an inherent "a" in a consonant or not.

<<<
It is simpler for a European to read Hindi in Roman script and for a
Hindian to read English in Devanagarii. But the pronunciation in both
cases suffers and has to be corrected by the ear. The issue hence in
not of convenience but ONLY OF DOMINANCE.

Take the case of Greek. Why have the Greeks not given up their script
and changed to Roman script ? It is not just a matter of identity, it
is also losing accesibility to ancient texts. In making the script
simpler for modern Greek there is aready a damage. The accents or
rather the tones or svaras have been lost and thus pronunciation has
been affected.
>>>

  If Indian grammars along with Roman script is taught, I fail to
  understand how our pronunciation will be lost.

  In India too, the problem of dominance exists and it is not
  usually the roman script.

  For international commerce and communications, the 3% of
  Indians controlling 80% of its wealth use roman script at an
  increasing phase.

NG>> Sanskrit or Tamil texts routinely appear in academic publications
NG>> in Roman script with diacriticals. Without diacritical marks,
NG>> the Harvard-Kyoto convention is used for the entire
NG>> Monier-Williams dictionary and the Cologne scheme has the entire
NG>> Tamil Sangam texts online.

<<<
This is for the sake of western Indologists not for the Indian people,
lay or scholars. Laboratory agenda is not for people. Far from Roman,
not even Devanaagarii  can be prescribed for the whole of India.
Things are best left to a healthy growth and evolution.
>>>

  When Indians adapt to Western science, technology & money, why not
latin script that will integrate many scripts into one? Besides, all
the computer developments will be directly applicable, no need for
interfaces.

   The Govt. of India definitely imposes the naagari. Take for
instance the grantha script where many sanskrit texts were originally
written, is destroyed. Kanchi Chandrasekharendra Sarasvati always
said that people must read Sanskrit in Grantha script. Any pointers
for a PC Grantha script? Sanskrit books can be published in
1) Nagari 2) Grantha and 3) Roman.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Fri Jan  7 15:46:03 2000
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 09:46:03 -0600
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054983.23782.11199931619233640063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I seems to be the very strong view of Sankara that women are not "eligible"
for enlightenment. This of course has been a major topic for debate and
dissatisfaction with his teachings ever since.

On the other hand, Sankara seemed to be more liberal on the ability of men
to become enlightened and even to "change" caste. There is the story that he
was supposed to have supported, of the boy without a father who came to be
initiated into study of the Veda. Since the boy admitted that he did not
know who is father was and thus did not know what his caste was, the guru
accepted him as Brahmin with the statement, " ...if he (must) tell the truth
he must be a Brahmin." The point seems to be that "caste" is determined by
one's nature rather than by one's "birth."

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?


> Must women either reincarnate as brahmin/ksatriya men or master yoga to
> achieve liberation/
>




From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR  Fri Jan  7 09:10:34 2000
From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 10:10:34 +0100
Subject: CARB fonts: proposed character set
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000106141756.00a48950@bc.barnard.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <161227054959.23782.7644097800238564541.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 14:28 06/01/00 -0500, you wrote:
>What a wonderful idea!  Thank you for adding this supplement to the CSX+
>font.
>I'm sorry, but I missed your earlier announcement.   I hope it is not too
>late to
>add these 16 characters:
>
>For rendering Bengali transliteration:
>
>a-candrabindu
>a-macron-candrabindu
>e-candrabindu
>i-chandrabindu
>i-macron-candrabindu
>o-candrabindu
>u-candrabindu
>u-macron-candrabindu
>
>and their capitalized versions
>
>A-candrabindu
>A-macron-candrabindu
>E-candrabindu
>I-chandrabindu
>I-macron-candrabindu
>O-candrabindu
>U-candrabindu
>U-macron-candrabindu
>
>Many, many thanks.  -- Rachel McDermott

         I wonder what would be the use of such new "characters", mixing
nagari (candrabindu or pseudo umlaut) and roman. I suppose that the
standard transcription of nasalized vowels, short or long, is the addition
of a superscript "tilde".
         Otherwise, as a diacritical mark, very similar to an "umlaut", is
used alternatively with the candrabindu to mark nasalized vowels in
Nepalese manuscripts, I would be very happy to add six more characters to
the proposed set : a macron umlaut, i macron umlaut, u macron umlaut and
the corresponding capitals...

JF.




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jan  7 09:25:34 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 10:25:34 +0100
Subject: SV: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054964.23782.13865537081614848786.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt [SMTP:abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN] skrev 04. januar 1980 01:03:
> Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> > All EU legal
> > documents are routinely published in English and French. They are then
> > translated into the various EU languages,
> >
> > But if English
> > has been chosen for linking, I would like to know how the French (and
> > Germans)
> > reacted to that. I would be grateful for some source material here!
>
> I must clarify that my comment on English in EU was not restricted to the
> deliberations
> of the EU legislature and executive but to the whole socio-cultural entity of
> EU.

This is a slightly different proposition. There is no doubt that English is the
language "on the attack" in the EU area for a large number of reasons. The
French may not be happy about this, and the Germans may want German to be just
as important as French and English, but the tidal wave moves in another
direction. What I had in mind was "official" politics, and I don't think that
the EU could survive politically if English was chosen the one and only
official link language. All languages are in principle to have equal status,
even if this is becoming increasingly unpractical.

> Let us face it, the EU officially may translate documents into several
> languages, but
> the people shall always prefer one link language. As linguistic nationalism
> subsides, in
> Europe and India alike, the link languages, English and Hindi respectively,
> shall come
> to occupy bigger spaces.

As for English, this is most certainly true, and as for Hindi, certainly not
impossible. But English is not being promoted as the EU's "national language",
and its preeminence is first and foremost due to the enormous economic and
cultural impact of the United States. Without the US, the EU might be opting
for French rather than English, given the traditional cultural prestige of
French. Thus, the promotion of Hindi is a political affair, whereas English
promotes itself through its sheer force and the advantages that come with it.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 18:32:52 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 10:32:52 -0800
Subject: Economist : The world language
Message-ID: <161227055002.23782.12934900480413951315.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Lars Fosse wrote:
[The power of English is a direct consequence of the combined influence
of American popular entertainment and knowledge production, not to
mention economic and military clout. English will dominate for as long
as America rules and perhaps a bit longer, just as Latin dominated
Europe for quite a few centuries after the collapse of the Roman
empire.But no language rules for ever. Maybe we'll all speak Chinese
a few centuries from now.  A thought for the new millenium? ]

The New York Times has a different view.
Asia's century? Unlikely
New York Times
By IAN BURUMA
Friday 31 December 1999

SOME 15 years before the end of this millennium, the cry went up that
the Asians were coming; the Japanese had bought Rockefeller Centre,
then chunks of Hollywood, and soon they would rule the world.
----------

Still, it would be foolish simply to dismiss Asian achievements and potential
now that Americans feel richer and many Asians have taken a cold bath. For Asia
will have its ups again, just as the West will have its downs. One need only
look at Silicon Valley's dependence on expatriate Chinese, Koreans,
Japanese and Indians. What they can do in California, they could surely
do at home, given half a chance.

And therein lies the rub. Will they get the chance? That is the question we
must
answer if we are to speculate about Asian success in the next hundred years.
------------------------------

One thing is certain: For a country, a city or a region to thrive in the
age of information technology, its citizens must be flexible, creative,
individualistic, cosmopolitan, free and, preferably, conversant in English.
And

these are just the qualities that East Asian "Confucian" education, with its
stress on rote learning and obedience, is set up to discourage, if not
actively stamp out.

But not all of Asia lies under the shadow of Confucius, and even those parts
that do are loosening up. There are enough people in Asia who think for
themselves, and they will thrive wherever they are most free; that is, in the
most democratic, least hidebound parts of Asia. These may sometimes be the
very places with high crime rates, much ethnic mixing and slack social
discipline:
Bombay, not Pyongyang; Bangkok, not Rangoon. Even Tokyo now has a large
population of immigrants, and the Japanese are beginning to jaywalk - a
positive sign if ever there was one.
---------------

The most vertiginous rise of all, however, might happen in India, or at least
parts of India. Already many commercial transactions initiated in London or
New York are in fact being carried out on computers in Bangalore. Once Indian
governments unlearn some of the more dogmatic lessons of Fabian socialism
imbibed by earlier generations at the London School of Economics, and give
young Indians the freedom they need, India could quickly overtake China. And
then?
Rockefeller Centre, perhaps?

That leaves China, the last large Asian country still trying to combine
authoritarian government with capitalist enterprise: freedom is to be
sacrificed to the promise of collective prosperity. It is, if you like, the
test case of
those vaunted "Asian values". And I can see it ending in tears.

It is hard to imagine how a nation's economy can keep on growing without
freedom of information, without its citizens having the right to question their
leaders
------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Jan  7 18:15:46 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 11:15:46 -0700
Subject: Kayasthas
In-Reply-To: <12D2B3C6.3100@del3.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227054995.23782.4599419804433151170.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Incidentally, Kaithi script is so called, because it was used
by Kayasthas in that region.

Kayasthas specilize in writing. In ancient India, there were
many libraries with large collection of books. Perhaps most
were written by Kayasthas (although  composed by others). Some
Buddhist and Jain manuscripts exist that mention having
been written by Kayasthas.

Some texts suggest that in some region, being a Kayastha may
have been an occupation rather than a jnati at that time,
Brahmins may also have served as Kayasthas.

Kayasthas are quite prominent in Bengal. Some authors mention
that the Pala kings were Kayasthas, which may provide
an explanation.

The oldest known inscription mentioning a Kayastha is on a
Buddha statue from Mathura, which may have been an old
center of Kayasthas. Certainly Mathur Kayasthas originated
from there (not to be confused with Mathur Brahmins).
Srivastavas originated from Sravasti.

There have been other communities which have served as
adminstrators, officers and clerks, who also must have
taken utkocha.

Yashwant

PS: Samir Abbas calls Congress "Pseudo-Secular", suggesting
it is not secular. Incidentally Tamil Tribune web-site is
organized by some anti-India  organization of non-Indians.
Its readers are largely non-Indian too.




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Jan  7 16:29:45 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 11:29:45 -0500
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
In-Reply-To: <003501bf5926$500caae0$15cc91d0@cs>
Message-ID: <161227054990.23782.10043732066971389794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The story referred to by Claude Setzer is not a story about Zankara and
one of his students, but an Upani.sadic story about Satyakaama Jaabaala
(found in the Chaandogya-U, 4.4.1-5).  While a liberal interpretation of
this passage is indeed offered by many modern scholars, the Dharmazaastra
commentaries interpret it differently:  "Since you spoke the truth, you
must be a son of a Brahmin", rather than "anyone who speaks the truth is a
Brahmin, irrespective of the caste".See Medhaatithi on Manu (10.5):
gautamas tu satyavacanaan nizcikaaya braahma.nena ayam jaatas tatas tam
upaninye "[the teacher) Gautama, on the basis of Satyakaama's words of
truth, determined that he was begotten by a Brahmin, and hence he accepted
him as a student".  For a discussion of related issues, M. Deshpande,
"Aryans, Non-Aryans, and Braahma.nas: Processes of Indigenization", The
Journal of Indo-European Studies, Vol. 21, Numbers 3-4, Fall-Winter 1993,
pp. 215-236.
                                Madhav Deshpande

On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Claude Setzer wrote:

> I seems to be the very strong view of Sankara that women are not "eligible"
> for enlightenment. This of course has been a major topic for debate and
> dissatisfaction with his teachings ever since.
>
> On the other hand, Sankara seemed to be more liberal on the ability of men
> to become enlightened and even to "change" caste. There is the story that he
> was supposed to have supported, of the boy without a father who came to be
> initiated into study of the Veda. Since the boy admitted that he did not
> know who is father was and thus did not know what his caste was, the guru
> accepted him as Brahmin with the statement, " ...if he (must) tell the truth
> he must be a Brahmin." The point seems to be that "caste" is determined by
> one's nature rather than by one's "birth."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
> To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 3:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
>
>
> > Must women either reincarnate as brahmin/ksatriya men or master yoga to
> > achieve liberation/
> >
>




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Fri Jan  7 17:55:38 2000
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 11:55:38 -0600
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054993.23782.5967668780061817524.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: Madhav Deshpande <>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?


> The story referred to by Claude Setzer is not a story about Zankara and
> one of his students, but an Upani.sadic story about Satyakaama Jaabaala

Thanks, Madhav, for catching me on "sloppy" statements.

Sorry for not being more clear. When I said "he" I meant that Sankara was
depicted as supporting the view of the story, not that it was a story about
Sankara. My reference, which I should of stated was the documentary movie
about the life of Sankara.

Please also note my use of the word "must" in telling the truth. I did not
intend to imply that merely telling the truth indicated a Brahmin, but that
telling the truth, even in this particular very intense situation of trying
to convince the guru to accept him for study of the Veda. (He was
"compelled" to tell only the truth.)

Claude Setzer

PS. A couple years ago I recorded a pandit pronouncing a lot of the stuff
(several hours) from your excellent book. I never got around to editing all
of it and preparing it for use. But if you are interested, I might do that
sometime. One of the things we have developed is software that allows
traditional recitation of word forms at three different speeds. It runs
under windows 95/98.




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Fri Jan  7 06:39:49 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 12:09:49 +0530
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <0EF800BDDF5FD2119AA600A0C9E0F334010C5912@bullwinkle.mgmt.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <161227054947.23782.15447709675632468239.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr.Yashwant Malaiya and Vishal Agarwal wrote:
> " I wonder what "Power-block" Dr. Abbas has in mind."
> VA: "Which power bloc??"

I was trying to reduce the politics, but due to popular demand, here
goes.
   The "Pseudo-Secular" [henceforth psec] bloc (ie. Congress) has been in
the forefront of the Hindi movement for 50 years. The "Hindutva bloc"
[sangh] have always wanted Sanskrit instead of Hindi. The entrenchment of
Hindi has become the biggest stumbling block in the way of Sanskrit.
Hence, the Sangh is attempting to split and divide Hindi, thereby paving
the way for Sanskrit. Witness the Sangh proposal to partition not 1 but 3
Hindi states. This fracturing of Hindi is the groundwork preparation for
the introduction of Sanskrit. Witness Golwalkar's statements,

" There is but one language, Sanskrit, of which these many `languages'
 are mere offshoots, the children of the mother language. Sanskrit, the
 dialect of the Gods, is common to all from the Himalayas to the ocean in
 the South, from East to West."
 ( We, Our Nationhood Defined, 1939, p.43 )

On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Shailendra Mehta wrote:
> ... opposition to Hindi seems to be declining in the South.

The following websites shows that power has been on the side of Hindi
rather than English, and that southern opposition to Hindi is still strong
- http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/tamiltribune.html (many articles)
( or http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/ )
- http://www.thedmk.org/hindi.html; http://www.thedmk.org/ahindi.html

Vishal Agarwal wrote:
> VA: Chhatisgarh is still a part of Madhya Pradesh.

True, but there are concrete plans to carve out Chhatisgarh :
        `MP set to carve out Chhatisgarh' -
http://www2.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/170798/detNAT04.htm
  perhaps bureaucratic inefficiency is the prime reason for the delay.

Samar




From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan  7 20:17:56 2000
From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 12:17:56 -0800
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055011.23782.9341378024733217548.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:
> Punjabi has
> acquired tonal accents and lost aspirated stops
> instead.
>

If I'm not mistaken, Punjabi has only lost the voiced
aspirates each of which is pronounced like the
corresponding unvoiced unaspirated consonant with an
added tone.  The orthography records neither the loss
of the voiced aspirate nor the tone.

In ordinary conversation, the voiceless aspirates can
still be clearly heard. Some of the latter are still
ringing in my ears from my last trip to India :-)

Thanks and Warm Regards,

LS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Fri Jan  7 11:37:19 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 12:37:19 +0100
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
In-Reply-To: <387700B8.58B6996@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227054966.23782.2149158508798416644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>If the verse in question is not an error, then a curious question
>arises.
>
>Must women either reincarnate as brahmin/ksatriya men or master yoga to
>achieve liberation?

If the verse in question is actually read, this question does not arise at
all -- at least not as long as we stay within the soteriological framework
of the Bhagavadgita. Women are assured of liberation (paraa.m gatim) on the
condition that they take refuge (vyapaazritya) in Krishna.
Brahmin/kshatriya men are not promised liberation on any different terms;
the process is merely considered easier for them (ki.m punar braahma.naa.h,
etc).

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU  Fri Jan  7 18:20:04 2000
From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 13:20:04 -0500
Subject: Index to Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique
In-Reply-To: <647EB22CA169D211B4610000F810007A043BE8@t-user.unifr.ch>
Message-ID: <161227054997.23782.14394055919472250384.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NAYAK Anand:

I do not have these volumes on my shelves now, but each time I do--as I
recall--I've wishes for some modicum of a resource as you are building.
Thank you.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe

On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, NAYAK Anand wrote:

> Dear Indologists,
> 
> You know how much the following work is of use for indologists :
> 
> Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique. Manuel des ?tudes
> indiennes, Vols.I et II, Adrien Maisonneuve/Ecole fran?aise
> d'extr?me-orient, Paris, 1985 (r?imprssion).
> 
> Its only defect is that it does not contain a suitable index and therefore
> it takes time to get at the matter. I have tried to prepare an index which
> can be of use to those who consult this work. It's a small New Year's gift
> to indologists. Download it from :
> http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm
> <http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm> 
> 
> All the best. 
> Anand Nayak
> 
> 
> 
> Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
> sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
> sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
> sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy
> 
> INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
> INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
> Universit? de Fribourg
> Avenue de l'Europe 20
> CH-1700 Fribourg
> Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
>         026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
> Fax;    026/ 300 9768
> 
> URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr <http://www.unifr.ch/imr> 
> Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK        
> 




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Fri Jan  7 19:59:11 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 14:59:11 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055007.23782.13962748587912087701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG>Yes, we can think of many things; However, consideration can be
given to the roman script applied world-wide successfully already.

RB>How about a roman alpabet which goes like a, A, i, I.. instead of
haphhazard abcd..

NG>That is exactly what is done while transliterating Indian
languages.

In that case you are just talking about what would largely be a font change
from nagari to roman making use of 26*2 roman characters( including caps).
There would be some who would miss the cursive or pretty indian scripts.

The bigger problem would be that with the prepoderence of english in India,
the roman alphabet will be taught along with all the associated complex
spelling rules of english which gives speakers subconscious biases,
conditions them not to recognize phonemes and makes it difficult for many of
them to mimic or pronounce non english words unless they are close matches
or rhyming words in english. There is a danger of phonological aspect of
Indian grammars being brushed aside if roman alphabets are made the norm.

More about place value notation when I have time

sincerely , RB




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Jan  7 22:51:44 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 15:51:44 -0700
Subject: Dates for ThirukkuRaL & Gita
In-Reply-To: <20000107183252.3975.qmail@web308.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055020.23782.15492159651150384330.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

P.Chandrasekaran wrote:
.. "thirukkuRaL" written no later than Gita ..

There is perhaps no way to be sure of the chronological
sequence, but what are the sources that suggest

- definite early/late bounds
- likely dates

for the two books?

Also, I am curious about available manuscripts of
the thirukkuRaL and if they have been critically
compared.

I have heard about some shlokas of Gita that are
not found in the common version. Does anyone have
those?

Yashwant




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  8 00:06:27 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 16:06:27 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055022.23782.14433242545300933886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM>


SP: Here tamizan2 (Tamilian) is contrasted from the Ariyan2 (Aryan) long
before Max Muller.
VA: So did the Tamils consider the residents of Andhra and Mysore as Aryans?


SP: I wonder why some Indians keep giving credit to Europeans for
language-based identity and nationalism in India in spite of clear evidence
to the contrary.
VA: Maybe because rules do have exceptions (like Tamil Nadu) but exceptions
do not make rules.

SP: The only way for this Indian view to make sense is if Tamilnadu was not
part of the Indian state. After all, the Tamil country was not part of the
Mauryan empire either.:-)
VA: But most of it was certainly a part of the Empire of Aurangzeb. And for
that matter, Afghanistan, Pakistan and much of Bangladesh and Nepal fell in
the Ashokan Empire. Therefore, such arguments do not prove anything. Else,
every nook and corner of the world will have Saddam Husseins invading Kuwait
and saying that 'it has been a province of our country historically."
And in contrast to some Tamil texts, one could cite texts from the Kama
Sutra to the Vishnu Purana etc. (the latter was a hallowed text in Tamil
Nadu long ago if the Manimekhalai is to be believed) to prove the unity of
India and so on.

Regards

Vishal Agarwal

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jan  7 15:10:38 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 16:10:38 +0100
Subject: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054981.23782.13833600519788319974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt [SMTP:abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN] skrev 04. januar 1980 01:39:
>
> Take the case of Greek. Why have the Greeks not given up their script and
> changed to
> Roman script ?

Even if the Greek letters look slightly differently, the alphabet is based on
the same principle as the Roman system of writing. The Greeks have nothing to
gain from introducing the Latin alphabet, and there is VERY long tradition for
using Greek letters. They are also quick and easy to learn. However, in
scholarly publications texts in ancient Greek are sometimes given in the Roman
alphabet for the sake of typographical convenience. Nothing is lost, it just
looks funny (seen from the point of view of a classical scholar).

It is not just a matter of identity, it is also losing
> accesibility to
> ancient texts. In making the script simpler for modern Greek there is aready
a
> damage.
> The accents or rather the tones or svaras have been lost and thus
> pronunciation has been
> affected.

Originally, Greek writing did not use accents. The accents were introduced at a
fairly late stage paradoxically because spoken Greek lost them. The ancient
philologists then needed accents to know how the old texts were pronounced.
Accents come and go in languages: Lithuanian has tonal accents, but is losing
them, Norwegian has tonal accents but they are not written. Punjabi has
acquired tonal accents and lost aspirated stops instead.

The many varieties of the Roman script system shows that the principle of "one
phoneme - one letter" works well and is attractive. In English and several
other languages, there is such a thing as historical spelling, which
particularly in the case of English makes a mockery of this very central
principle of Roman script. I would add that any graphical representation of
letters based on the same principle ("one phoneme - one letter") would be
equally practical to Roman.

Otherwise, I would like to point out that from an esthetic point of view, both
Devanagari and Arabic writing are vastly superior to Roman, which for all its
practical value is a boring little alphabet.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse



Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  8 00:19:02 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 16:19:02 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055024.23782.16495468751706674599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>

SA: Dr.Yashwant Malaiya and Vishal Agarwal wrote:
 > " I wonder what "Power-block" Dr. Abbas has in mind."
 > VA: "Which power bloc??"
The "Pseudo-Secular" [henceforth psec] bloc (ie. Congress) has been in
the forefront of the Hindi movement for 50 years. The "Hindutva bloc"
[sangh] have always wanted Sanskrit instead of Hindi. The entrenchment of
Hindi has become the biggest stumbling block in the way of Sanskrit.
Hence, the Sangh is attempting to split and divide Hindi, thereby paving the
way for Sanskrit. Witness the Sangh proposal to partition not 1 but 3 Hindi
states. This fracturing of Hindi is the groundwork preparation for the
introduction of Sanskrit.

VA Replies: That is a curious analysis indeed considering that the Jan Sangh
and its offspring are typically accused of expousing 'Hindi, Hindu,
Hindustan."
___________________

SA: The following websites shows that power has been on the side of Hindi
rather than English, and that southern opposition to Hindi is still strong
- http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/tamiltribune.html (many articles)

VA replies: Such websites (and others pointed out by you in the past) are
the creation of the ISI of Pakistan and their brothers in India. The Indian
Govt. and Indians like me know how to deal with them.

SA:True, but there are concrete plans to carve out Chhatisgarh :
         `MP set to carve out Chhatisgarh' -
http://www2.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/170798/detNAT04.htm
VA: There are such 'concrete plans' to create many more states:
Vananchal/Jharkhand, Uttarakhand, Vidarbha and so on. BTW, do you realize
that it is the 'pseudosecular' and Hindi imposing Congress here which is
espousing the splitting up of a Hindi state of Madhya Pradesh whereas the
BJP seems to be opposing it. So the article refutes your analysis above.
Anyway, if one follows your logic, it will follow automatically that BJP is
not in favor of 'imposing' Hindi on Southern states whereas Congress I is!
Therefore, the Dravidian Nationalists should vote for the Congress I.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  8 00:27:43 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 16:27:43 -0800
Subject: pavamana sukta
Message-ID: <161227055026.23782.17805768749900604961.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The term 'Pavamana suktas' is applied to all the Soma suktas of RV. Along
with Sri/Purusha/Vishnu suktas etc., it is one of the most popular Suktas
memorised by Rigvedins. For instance, I had Deshastha Brahmin neighbours who
could recite 114 Pavamana Suktas alone from the Rigveda (and did so everday
during the Shraddha period) with accent. For details on the ritual
application of the Pavamana suktas, you could refer to manuals in vogue
amongst Rigvedins nowadays like the 'Rigvediya Brahmakarmasamucchaya'
(available at bookshops in Poona like Rasika Sahitya, ABC Chowk).

----Original Message Follows----
From: Nikhil Rao <marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: pavamana sukta

Can anybody tell me where the pavamana sukta occurs in
the rigveda and if possible also its significance!

Thanks,
Nikhil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH  Fri Jan  7 17:10:22 2000
From: anand.nayak at UNIFR.CH (NAYAK Anand)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 18:10:22 +0100
Subject: Index to Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique
Message-ID: <161227054988.23782.12227579314498105621.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

You know how much the following work is of use for indologists :

Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique. Manuel des ?tudes
indiennes, Vols.I et II, Adrien Maisonneuve/Ecole fran?aise
d'extr?me-orient, Paris, 1985 (r?imprssion).

Its only defect is that it does not contain a suitable index and therefore
it takes time to get at the matter. I have tried to prepare an index which
can be of use to those who consult this work. It's a small New Year's gift
to indologists. Download it from :
http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm
<http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm> 

All the best. 
Anand Nayak



Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy

INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
Universit? de Fribourg
Avenue de l'Europe 20
CH-1700 Fribourg
Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
        026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
Fax;    026/ 300 9768

URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr <http://www.unifr.ch/imr> 
Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK        




From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jan  7 13:40:49 2000
From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 18:40:49 +0500
Subject: Marriage between cousins
Message-ID: <161227054971.23782.13015936614580671108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 1/5/00 4:38:00 PM, you wrote:
>Is the practice of marrying one's maternal uncle's
>daughter prevalent amongst Tamil brahmins. Is it
>dependent on the subsect ?
>
>Thanks,
>Nikhil
>
I cannot say it is actively persued; but it is not discouraged. it does happen, irresepective of region and subsects. Please
read 'Tamil Brahmins' by N.Subrahmanian for elucidation.

With regards,
RM.Krishnan.




From garzilli at SHORE.NET  Sat Jan  8 00:55:38 2000
From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 19:55:38 -0500
Subject: Index to Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique
Message-ID: <161227055004.23782.3555241199362101406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thank you very much for the gift.
I wish you a serene and jouful year 2000,

Enrica

--
Dr. Enrica Garzilli                 University of Perugia (ITALY)
Istituto di Linguistica                      Piazza Morlacchi, 11
06123 Perugia                  Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office)
Editor-in-Chief,
Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies
http://www.asiatica.org/
*****************************************************************

NAYAK Anand wrote:
>
> Dear Indologists,
>
> You know how much the following work is of use for indologists :
>
> Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique. Manuel des ?tudes
> indiennes, Vols.I et II, Adrien Maisonneuve/Ecole fran?aise
> d'extr?me-orient, Paris, 1985 (r?imprssion).
>
> Its only defect is that it does not contain a suitable index and therefore
> it takes time to get at the matter. I have tried to prepare an index which
> can be of use to those who consult this work. It's a small New Year's gift
> to indologists. Download it from :
> http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm
> <http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm>
>
> All the best.
> Anand Nayak
>
> Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
> sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
> sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
> sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy
>
> INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
> INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
> Universit? de Fribourg
> Avenue de l'Europe 20
> CH-1700 Fribourg
> Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
>         026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
> Fax;    026/ 300 9768
>
> URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr <http://www.unifr.ch/imr>
> Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK




From poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN  Fri Jan  7 15:18:16 2000
From: poo at GIASMD01.VSNL.NET.IN (RM.Krishnan)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 20:18:16 +0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227054979.23782.8657650008872152477.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 1/6/00 11:29:00 PM, you wrote:

>I wonder why some Indians keep giving credit to Europeans for language-based
>identity and nationalism in India in spite of clear evidence to the contrary.
>The only way for this Indian view to make sense is if Tamilnadu was not part
>of the Indian state. After all, the Tamil country was not part of the Mauryan
>empire either.:-)

This is a vital point which most Indians other than Tamilians do not comprehend, when we are talking about vital
statistics and dialects/language demarcation.

What we call India is a creation of (may be) 200 years old.

With regards,
RM.Krishnan

>Regards
>S. Palaniappan
>
>




From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR  Fri Jan  7 20:03:26 2000
From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 21:03:26 +0100
Subject: Index to Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique
In-Reply-To: <647EB22CA169D211B4610000F810007A043BE8@t-user.unifr.ch>
Message-ID: <161227055009.23782.15850781168585335295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 18:10 07/01/00 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear Indologists,
>
>You know how much the following work is of use for indologists :
>
>Louis RENOU et Jean FILLIOZAT, L'Inde classique. Manuel des ?tudes
>indiennes, Vols.I et II, Adrien Maisonneuve/Ecole fran?aise
>d'extr?me-orient, Paris, 1985 (r?imprssion).
>
>Its only defect is that it does not contain a suitable index and therefore
>it takes time to get at the matter. I have tried to prepare an index which
>can be of use to those who consult this work. It's a small New Year's gift
>to indologists. Download it from :
>http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm
><http://www.unifr.ch/imr/EDFpage_publications.htm>
>
>All the best.
>Anand Nayak
>
>
>
>Sarvesham svastirbhavatu        May all be prosperous
>sarvesham santirbhavatu         May all be  peaceful
>sarvesham purnambhavatu         May all be whole
>sarvesam mangalambhavatu        May all be happy
>
>INSTITUT DE MISSIOLOGIE ET DE SCIENCE DES RELIGIONS
>INSTITUT FUER MISSIONS- UND RELIGIONSWISSENSCHAFTEN
>Universit? de Fribourg
>Avenue de l'Europe 20
>CH-1700 Fribourg
>Tel:    026/ 300 74 38 (Office)
>         026/ 475 27 91 (Private)
>Fax;    026/ 300 9768
>
>URL: http://www.unifr.ch/imr <http://www.unifr.ch/imr>
>Prof.Dr.Anand NAYAK

Merci beaucoup de ce tr?s utile cadeau de No?l qui procure un outil qui 
manquait ? tous ceux --- et ils sont nombreux --- qui, dans leurs 
recherches comme dans leur enseignement, font usage de l'Inde Classique.
J.F.




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Fri Jan  7 20:17:56 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 21:17:56 +0100
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
In-Reply-To: <3877826C.C396F22F@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055013.23782.9660739232037606057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>It appears to me that the verse is giving an exception to a rule that
>generally states that brahmins (and not brahmins/ksatriyas) are eligible
>for liberation.

There is no such rule stated or implied in the Gita itself; and if the Gita
is to be contrasted with other, 'general' texts, it should be made clear
which ones and why. The Upanishads mention many rajarshis who knew Brahman,
and even taught it to brahmins.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jan  7 20:37:48 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 00 21:37:48 +0100
Subject: SV: SV: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055015.23782.1170856646816911433.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lakshmi Srinivas [SMTP:lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM] skrev 07. januar 2000 21:18:
> --- Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse at ONLINE.NO> wrote:
> > Punjabi has
> > acquired tonal accents and lost aspirated stops
> > instead.
> >
>
> If I'm not mistaken, Punjabi has only lost the voiced
> aspirates each of which is pronounced like the
> corresponding unvoiced unaspirated consonant with an
> added tone.  The orthography records neither the loss
> of the voiced aspirate nor the tone.

Thank you for correcting my slightly messy statement! It illustrates that a
script system does not have to make note of every possible sound in the
phonetic system. It is enough to be reasonably unambiguous. Context and
linguistic competence will take care of the rest.

Lars Martin Fosse


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jan  8 09:17:52 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 01:17:52 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227054962.23782.18366646823529202410.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If the verse in question is not an error, then a curious question
arises.

Must women either reincarnate as brahmin/ksatriya men or master yoga to
achieve liberation?  As a rule, do brahmin women reincarnate as dalit,
sudra, vaisya, ksatriya or brahmin men?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From Atimidus at PRONTO.BBT.SE  Sat Jan  8 03:14:00 2000
From: Atimidus at PRONTO.BBT.SE (Atimidus)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 06:14:00 +0300
Subject: imagination in Vedic/Indian texts
Message-ID: <161227055028.23782.2457140669931404049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Respected scholars,

could you, please, suggest some ideas on the imagination faculty in the
Indian philosophy.

I.Kant, for example, in the "Critique of pure reason" on the one hand,
attributes facultas imaginandi to the sensual activities, yet on the other,
to the spontaneity of the reason. In the latter work, "Anthropology from the
pragmatic point of view", I.Kant reasons, that imagination is twofold, it
can be productive (exhibitio originaria) and reproductive (exhibitio
derivativa). First one is connected only with perception of time and space
and the second reproduces images from the previous experience solely. One
could think that productive imagination can be creative, since reproductive
one only combines sensual data, but I.Kant deprives it of this facility,
giving the example of the blind person, who cannot have the feeling of the
colors. Do schools of Indian thought agree, that one has to perceive
something first, before imagining? What is the role of the imagination in
the cognition according to the Indian thought?

Thank you,
Timoschuk Alexey
Lecturer in History of religion
Vladimir University




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  8 14:50:59 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 06:50:59 -0800
Subject: Looking for info on Grantha script
Message-ID: <161227055049.23782.13128881106402965108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For a look at the Grantha alphabets:
1) K. Venugopalan, A primer in Grantha characters, South Asia books.
A large importer of Indian books in the US, SA books' URL is:
http://www.southasiabooks.com. You can order it through SA books.
I think Dr. James Nye (jnye at midway.uchicago.edu) got this
published.

The first Western grammar for Sanskrit uses the Grantha characters.
It is reprinted:
2) Paulinus a S. Bartholomaeo, Dissertation on the Sanskrit language.
A reprint of the original Latin text of 1790, together with an
introductory article, a complete English translation, and an index
of sources by Ludo Rocher. Amsterdam Studies in the Theory and
History of Linguistic Science. Series III - Studies in the History
of Linguistics. Volume 12. (Amsterdam: John Benjamins B.V., 1977).

If you can't get these books, I can mail you a photocopy.
Is it OK to photocopy, because it is only for an
academic & non-commercial purpose and to revive the ancient
and aesthetic Grantha font?

With kind regards,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Sat Jan  8 07:01:47 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 08:01:47 +0100
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
In-Reply-To: <3877B60D.C7CD5E26@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055040.23782.64626650769528938.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>The verse itself implies knowledge of belief in evolution
>toward liberation through rebirth.

There is, to my knowledge, *no* idea of evolution towards liberation in any
school of Indian thought (excepting perhaps, in a certain sense, the
Ajivikas); this is a modern, Theosophical concept bearing the stamp of 19th
century optimism and belief in progress. Traditionally, transmigration is
conceived of as a process without beginning and without natural end: if
left to itself, it will go on ad infinitum. Liberation from this endless
cycle is seen (by the Gita and Upanishads as well as by Jaina and Bauddha
texts) as requiring conscious and persistent effort.

>What else could Krisna be talking
>about. The new idea offered is salvation through taking refuge in the
>deity as versus the older order of karmic evolution.

This 'new' idea is not introduced by the Gita; it is found in several of
the later classical Upanishads (e.g., Svet. 6.18). And the older
Upanishadic idea was not salvation by evolution, but salvation by gnosis.
Nor is this doctrine rejected by the Gita; rather, taking refuge in the
deity is seen as conducive to gnosis (e.g., BhG 10.11).

I won't comment further on this thread, but I do suggest that anyone
interested in theorizing about the Gita give it (and its major
source-texts) a thorough reading-through first.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  8 16:06:32 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 08:06:32 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055051.23782.3403453237166944132.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Just like decimal-place notation, factors like efficiency,
simplicity, and worldwide application are neeeded for writing. The
world space is shrinking day by day. The simplicity of the roman
script compared to nagari is evident to a layman or a draftsman.
Arabic or Nagari may be good  for calligraphy purposes. Religion
or language education is no longer the full occupations for many
people. As the Net and liberalization of economy away from GOI
spreads in India, use of roman is bound to accelerate.  As we
all know, it pays to use roman. Chapter on Writing Systems, The
atlas of languages, 1997 has a map: "The scripts of Newspapers
across the Globe" It says: "The extensive spread of that writing
system which was once the script of Rome is quite remarkable." In
most places in Americas, Europe, Africa, Australia, and in many
nations of Souteast Asia.

One option is Harvard-Kyoto convention for Sanskrit or Hindi:

                   a A i I u U R RR lR lRR e ai o au M H
                          k kh g gh G c ch j jh J
                          T Th D Dh N t th d dh n
                        p ph b bh m y r l v z S s h

The other choice is diacriticals and, it is wrong to say that
we need to put diacriticals all over - they are needed mainly
for vowels to retain Indian phonology. The Indian sounds will
*not* suffer if the phonological rules are taught along with a
latin script. As roman is Dominance-neutral in India, it will
integrate more and more.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

-------------------------

In that case you are just talking about what would largely be a font
change from nagari to roman making use of 26*2 roman characters
( including caps). There would be some who would miss the cursive or
pretty indian scripts.

The bigger problem would be that with the prepoderence of english in
India, the roman alphabet will be taught along with all the associated
complex spelling rules of english which gives speakers subconscious
biases, conditions them not to recognize phonemes and makes it
difficult for many of them to mimic or pronounce non english words
unless they are close matches or rhyming words in english. There is a
danger of phonological aspect of Indian grammars being brushed aside
if roman alphabets are made the norm.

More about place value notation when I have time
---------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jan  8 18:31:08 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 10:31:08 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227055000.23782.13437793378118347072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten wrote:
>
> >If the verse in question is not an error, then a curious question
> >arises.
> >
> >Must women either reincarnate as brahmin/ksatriya men or master yoga to
> >achieve liberation?
>
> If the verse in question is actually read, this question does not arise at
> all -- at least not as long as we stay within the soteriological framework
> of the Bhagavadgita. Women are assured of liberation (paraa.m gatim) on the
> condition that they take refuge (vyapaazritya) in Krishna.
> Brahmin/kshatriya men are not promised liberation on any different terms;
> the process is merely considered easier for them (ki.m punar braahma.naa.h,
> etc).
>


It appears to me that the verse is giving an exception to a rule that
generally states that brahmins (and not brahmins/ksatriyas) are eligible
for liberation.

The question is then outside of the Gita do women need to reincarnate as
men to achieve liberation or can they achieve liberation at all?

Claude has given one view that they cannot, but isn't the general view
similar to that given by Ravi?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Sat Jan  8 10:51:04 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 11:51:04 +0100
Subject: Final clarification (Was: Re: Typographical error in the              Bhagavad-Gita?)
In-Reply-To: <38784113.739CA9C6@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055044.23782.12414052039652672257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>However, to say that Krisna is not introducing a new concept in the Gita
>is something I can't agree with and I have read the book.

You are misquoting me. Please read what I actually said.

>Where do you read that transmigration is seen only as an endless cycle
>without regard to karma?  Sounds totally novel to me.

You are being as careless in reading my posts as in reading the Gita. I did
not deny that the Gita teaches that transmigration depends on karma. But
karma has neither beginning nor (natural) end; hence transmigration, in
this view, could not be an evolutionary process. The Gita contains no
explicit discussion of this theme (for which you may refer to the
Brahmasutra; see 2.1.35); but nor does it contradict the common view.

And now I really have nothing further to add.

Regards,
Martin Gansten




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sat Jan  8 06:54:47 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 12:24:47 +0530
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <20000108001902.42315.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055037.23782.7357702180287680274.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
> But most of [TamilNadu] was certainly a part of the Empire of Aurangzeb

  In fact all of Tamil Nadu was part of Aurangzeb's empire, as were
Afghanistan, Tibet and Pakistan. Indeed, Auranzeb's empire was the largest
Indian empire ever built. Prior to him, the Delhi Sultanate also
managed to conquer all of the South - something Asoka could not do.
BTW Muslims attribute the decline of these empires due to a rise in
"destructive polytheism".

> VA:BTW, do you realize that it is the 'pseudosecular' and Hindi imposing
> Congress here which is espousing the splitting up of a Hindi state ?

On the contrary, it is conclusively the Sanskritist Sangh which is
splitting Hindi states; witness the Sangh in Uttaranchal =

   http://www.india-today.com/itoday/13071998/nation.html

It is psecs who created such states in the first place; breaking them now
would only be self-contradictory. Even the names, `Uttaranchal`,
`Vananchal` are Sanskrit instead of the Hindi `Uttarakhand` or
`Jharkhand`. The underlying Hindi-Sanskrit Psec-Hindutva conflict is
symolised in this naming of the states itself.

> VA :... a curious analysis indeed considering that the Jan Sangh
> and its offspring are typically accused of expousing 'Hindi, Hindu,
> Hindustan."

Time shall tell whether my argument is right or wrong - I have made the
prediction: One fine day, the announcement shall be made that "Sanskrit
shall forthwith replace Hindi" from sangh HQ, and the flock shall then
chant slogans against psec `mongrel' Hindi. Some OBCs may oppose this, but
Savarnas shall go along.

> Yashwant Malaiya: Samir Abbas calls Congress "Pseudo-Secular",
> suggesting it is not secular.

This phrase is used by the Sangh, Sikhs, Muslims and Dravidians for much
the same reasons.

> YM: Incidentally Tamil Tribune web-site is
> organized by some anti-India  organization of non-Indians.

What about the Godse websites, eulogising Godse's assasination of Mahatma
Gandhi, like  http://members.tripod.com/~ngodse/ ? Are they pro-India or
anti-India ?

> VA: Therefore, the Dravidian Nationalists should vote for the Cong.

Probably you mean "Dravidians should vote for BJP". Indeed, there was an
article in the Tamil Tribune some time back on this interesting alliance.
Indeed, Sanskritists stand to gain in the South by taking an anti-Hindi
stance. Just some advice for the sangh. :)

Samar




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jan  8 22:11:26 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 14:11:26 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227055018.23782.12157342799954918421.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten wrote:
>
> >It appears to me that the verse is giving an exception to a rule that
> >generally states that brahmins (and not brahmins/ksatriyas) are eligible
> >for liberation.
>
> There is no such rule stated or implied in the Gita itself;

I don't agree. The verse itself implies knowledge of belief in evolution
toward liberation through rebirth. What else could Krisna be talking
about. The new idea offered is salvation through taking refuge in the
deity as versus the older order of karmic evolution.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan  8 22:26:12 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 14:26:12 -0800
Subject: mleccha
Message-ID: <161227055055.23782.13608434345302684816.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, EJVS, 1999
<<<
        The word meluHHa is of special interest. It occurs as a verb
in a different form (mlecha-) in Vedic only in ZB 3.2.1, an eastern
text of N. Bihar where it indicates 'to speak in barbarian fashion'.
But it has a form closer to meluHHa in Middle Indian (MIA): Pali, the
church language of S. Buddhism which originated as a western N. Indian
dialect (roughly, between Mathura, Gujarat and the Vindhya) has
milakkha, milakkhu. Other forms, closer to ZB mleccha are found in
MIA *mliccha > Sindhi milis, Panjabi milech, malech, Kashmiri
bri.c.hun 'weep, lament' (< *mrech-, with the common r/l interchange
of IA), W. Pahari mel?.c.h 'dirty'. It seems that, just as in other
cases mentioned above, the original local form *m(e)luH (i.e. m(e)lukh
in IA pronunciation, cf. E. Iranian bAxdhI 'Bactria' > AV *bahli-ka,
balhi-ka) was preserved only in the South (Gujarat? > Pali),
while the North (Panjab, Kashmir, even ZB and Bengal) has *mlecch. The
sound shift from -HH-/-kh- > -cch- is unexplained; it may have been
modeled on similar correspondences in MIA (Skt. akSi 'eye' ~ MIA
akkhi, acchi; kSetra 'field' ~ MIA khetta, chetta, etc.)
>>>

  Prof. Parpola derives Meluhha, mentioned in Sumerian tablets, as
Dravidian (Deciphering the Indus script, 1994). He connects Meluhha
with tamil "mElakam". Intervocalical -k- often becomes a h-type sound.
For example, take the sangam division of life into "pu.ram" (exterior)
and "akam" (interior), - "akam" is pronounced as "aham". Is "Meluhha"
a Sumerian rendering of the word something like "melakam"?

Drav. "mi.laku" (pepper) becomes "mircchii" in MIA. Similarly,
drav. melaka > "mleccha" in MIA. Does this example of the word for
pepper explain the sound shift -k- to -ch- in forming mleccha?

Regards,
N. Ganesan





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From bpj at NETG.SE  Sat Jan  8 13:31:16 2000
From: bpj at NETG.SE (BP Jonsson)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 14:31:16 +0100
Subject: Looking for info on Grantha script
Message-ID: <161227055046.23782.12289128096486649267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,

I'm looking for information on the Grantha script, but it is hard to come
by where I am, so I would be very grateful for any help you can offer.  All
I got so far--shame to say--is a photocopy of a rather poorly printed chart
showing the basic ak.saras.  Thus any reference to sources that would be
generally available by interlibrary loan at western libraries would be of
interst, but especially so information on how conjunct characters are
formed.  I would be equally grateful if somebody could provide me with
scanned images; in that case please contact me by private email at
<bpj at netg.se>.  Please note that I subscribe to Indology in subject-index
form only, so I would appreciate if on-list responses are cc-ed to the same
address!

Bhavatu vah sarvam mangalam!


/BP

B. Philip Jonsson <mailto: bpj at netg.se> <mailto: melroch at my-deja.com>

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~ The parents spoke French and the governess German, and  ~
~ at school Latin was spoken.  The tongue of the country  ~
~ the boy had to learn in the streets.                    ~
~                            (after L. Holberg 1684-1754) ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sat Jan  8 17:42:27 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 17:42:27 +0000
Subject: Economist : The world language
In-Reply-To: <20000107183252.3975.qmail@web308.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055053.23782.1488549355267679306.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

DO NOT CITE COMPLETE ARTICLES FROM NEWSPAPERS ON THIS LIST.  I MEAN IT!

I'm seriously considering cancelling subscriptions without warning if this
happens again.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU  Sat Jan  8 23:10:06 2000
From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (george cardona)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 18:10:06 -0500
Subject: Looking for info on Grantha script
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b49ce8e2621c@[195.17.120.229]>
Message-ID: <161227055057.23782.14950487244238707769.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a very useful short work, A Primer in Grantha Characters, by K.
Venugopalam, published by James H. Nye in 1983.  The 1983 pamphlet (pp. 14
+ v) lists the address of the publisher (319 West Swift St., St. Peter,
Minnesota 56082 USA) but this may well have changed.  However, you may be
able to obtain the work from a bookseller such as Motilal Banarsidass.
George Cardona

>Dear Indologists,
>
>I'm looking for information on the Grantha script, but it is hard to come
>by where I am, so I would be very grateful for any help you can offer.  All
>I got so far--shame to say--is a photocopy of a rather poorly printed chart
>showing the basic ak.saras.  Thus any reference to sources that would be
>generally available by interlibrary loan at western libraries would be of
>interst, but especially so information on how conjunct characters are
>formed.  I would be equally grateful if somebody could provide me with
>scanned images; in that case please contact me by private email at
><bpj at netg.se>.  Please note that I subscribe to Indology in subject-index
>form only, so I would appreciate if on-list responses are cc-ed to the same
>address!
>
>Bhavatu vah sarvam mangalam!
>
>
>/BP
>
>B. Philip Jonsson <mailto: bpj at netg.se> <mailto: melroch at my-deja.com>
>
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>~ The parents spoke French and the governess German, and  ~
>~ at school Latin was spoken.  The tongue of the country  ~
>~ the boy had to learn in the streets.                    ~
>~                            (after L. Holberg 1684-1754) ~
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~




From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU  Sat Jan  8 23:19:16 2000
From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 18:19:16 -0500
Subject: "ai" with umlaut in RV (Van Nooten and Titus and Lubotsky)
In-Reply-To: <20000108222612.21521.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055059.23782.17601590879655813513.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(This might be one for George to clarify):

10 times in the RV, e.g., as in RV 1.176.1, we have

        ma'tsi no va'syai:STaya

Mostly with these terms, Van Nooten & Holland's notes indicate:

        "Many lines can be restored to their proper syllable count simply
resolving external sandhi contractions between words in a clause or
members of a compound.  These . . . are of two types .  First are teh
contractions of vowels" (1994:iii).

Clearly that is the case here.  What is not clear is what the umlaut over
teh "i" in this case (the examples in the Introduction do not mention this
example, or clarify the signification of the umlaut).  I could see this as
simply the convention to designate the ellision of the two words with
external vowel sandhi.  However, I notice the umlauted "i" for this
several times in teh Titus version too.  What leaves me less clear,
however, is that the Lubotsky e-version (from teh TITUS CD . . . unless
it's not the per-word-resolved version I thought it was) has the same
thing.

Any suggestions/clarifications?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Sun Jan  9 03:03:00 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 20:03:00 -0700
Subject: What part of India is Dravidian?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001081806090.19644-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055062.23782.5530635872126106164.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

All great cultures are the result of a synthesis. Tang China achieved
greatness due to Indian and Persian influence. Indian culture too is a
result of a complex synthesis, the two major components being the so-called
Aryan and Dravidian cultures.
Practically all Indians have some Dravidian blood. Certainly some of the
heroes like Krisha (="the dark one") and Ramachandra must
have had some Dravidian blood, although they were born in very Aryan
Andhaka-Vrishni and Iksvaku clans.

In ancient times the "South India" (dakshinapatha) included
Gujarat and Maharashtra. Thus the native Brahmins of Gujarata and
Maharashtra are included in the pancha-dravida as opposed to the
pancha-gauda of northern India. In NirvaNa-bhakti of Jain Acharya Kundakunda
(who lived perhaps in Tamilnadu or Andhra), some Dravida kings are mentioned
to have achieved Nirvana at Mt. Satrunjaya, in Gujarat.

Some major North Indian communities have prominent "Dravidian" features, if
we regard the term to indicate a race. Two very well known Rajput clans,
Rathor (Rashtrakuta) and Solanki (Chaulukya) originated in the South.
High-born Rajputs often tend to somewhat dark-skinned. "Karnataka" people
are frequently mentioned in North Indian sources as a clan around 10-12
cent.

Dravida, Damila, and Tamil are related words. Hemchandracharya
gives several terms for Kautalya (who made Chandragupta Maurya king)
including Damila.

While Tamilnadu is the home of the purest Dravidian language,
71% of the Dravidian speakers live outside of Tamilnadu. It should also be
noted that North Indian languages, including Sanskrit have significant
Dravidian influence.

Yashwant




From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU  Sun Jan  9 03:16:38 2000
From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 22:16:38 -0500
Subject: RV 10.23.1 & Lubotsky
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIIPKOKJJJCMPMOJBOEPOCFAA.malaiya@cs.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055064.23782.15902404993853040641.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My thanks to V. Rao for the reply-- any guesses as to why this i/umlaut
was done with ma'tsi no va'syai:STaya are welcome.

One more question.  For RV 10.23.1, my e-copy of Lubotsky adds "ho~ud"
(with the tilde over the o) at the end of 10.23.1c which otherwise is:

        pra' zma;zaru do'dhuvad Urdhva'thA bhu~d (from Van Nooten/Holland)

Is this in other folks' Lubotsky?  Electronic or otherwise?  Or did it
creep in to my file by processing?

thanks in advance,

jr

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe




From rchawla at DELLNET.COM  Sun Jan  9 07:35:25 2000
From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla)
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 00 23:35:25 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227055069.23782.1746467102242560109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:16 PM
> --- Ravi Chawla <rchawla at DELLNET.COM> wrote:
>
> ...>
> >  What was true at the time when the Gita was originally written, that is
> > also  true today. This is the significance of the Gita.  And what is
true
> > today was  also true at the time when the Gita was written.
>
       Yes, in order for any scripture to be of practical use, it must have
meaning that is true today.  Otherwise it should be rejected (as not
applicable to modern times). But I wrote the above with regard to the
possibilility of a typographical error in the Gita.  As typographical errors
are possible today, therefore such errors were possible when the Gita was
written.

Mr. Chandrasekaran wrote:

> What about the following verses from Chapter 18 which is purported  to be
the
> essence of the preceding 17 chapters?

    He made reference to Verses 41 - 48 of chapter 18 of the Gita,   and
asked a
question:

> Are they still true?

My answer to  Mr. Chandrasekaran's above question is yes,  so far as the
above verses are concerned.

In order to have any purposeful meaning of the above verses, I have
developed my own definiton of brahman and other lower classes of the Hindu
society. Brahman is not necessarily a person who is born in a brahman
family. Brahman according to me is a person who is born with qualities and
apptitue fit for a brahman.  A son of a sudra, if he is born with an
inquisitive and a sharp mind and has a true thirst for knowledge and devotes
his time seeking the truth,  is a brahman according to me. This may not meet
the requirement of some orthodox Hindus, but I feel that such was the intent
when
the social orders for the society ( for all human race) were created
originally.

According to my definiton of brahman, all members of this Indology network
are brahmanas, whether they are Westerners or Easterners - because they have

minds that are evolved, they live for the cause of knowledge, and many of
them are perhaps seeking for themselves the purpose and meaning of their
lives.  Most of them spend their time searching for the truth - whether in
the words of the scriptures, or in their struggle in this material world.
According to me, anybody who devotes his or her life seeking the truth is a
brahman.

Westerner and all other  members of this network, congratulate yourself.
According to my interpretation of the scriptures you belong to the brahman
class - because you are living a life that is fit for a brahman. You may not
belong to the 'Indian class of brahmanas' but you are all brahmanas in the
real sense of the scriptures.

When we create our own definitions of the words of the scriptures, the
scriptures come 'alive'.

I believe that in order to find the truth in the words of scriptures we have
to go beyond the words,
beyond the spelling and pronunciation of the words.  Every individual will
have to find  a deeper meaning of 'every word of scriptures' for himself or
herself to finally realize the truth.

Regards,
R.  Chawla


> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sun Jan  9 08:04:36 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 00:04:36 -0800
Subject: Typographical error in the Bhagavad-Gita?
Message-ID: <161227055042.23782.9172035524447514551.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten wrote:

>
> >What else could Krisna be talking
> >about. The new idea offered is salvation through taking refuge in the
> >deity as versus the older order of karmic evolution.
>
> This 'new' idea is not introduced by the Gita; it is found in several of
> the later classical Upanishads (e.g., Svet. 6.18). And the older
> Upanishadic idea was not salvation by evolution, but salvation by gnosis.
> Nor is this doctrine rejected by the Gita; rather, taking refuge in the
> deity is seen as conducive to gnosis (e.g., BhG 10.11).
>
> I won't comment further on this thread, but I do suggest that anyone
> interested in theorizing about the Gita give it (and its major
> source-texts) a thorough reading-through first.
>


There are many that have who have a quite different interpretation that
what you give.  True that some of the ideas found in the Gita are found
in the Upanishads, and Buddhists and Jainas certainly had their own
ideas about enlightenment.

However, to say that Krisna is not introducing a new concept in the Gita
is something I can't agree with and I have read the book.

Where do you read that transmigration is seen only as an endless cycle
without regard to karma?  Sounds totally novel to me.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU  Sun Jan  9 08:32:23 2000
From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 00:32:23 -0800
Subject: Death in Theravada Buddhism
Message-ID: <161227055071.23782.8353340154807592117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Here's a couple of references on death issues in Theravada:

Bond, George.  "Theravada Buddhism's Meditations on Death and the Symbolism
of Initiatory Death." History of Religions 19 (1980) 237-258.

Wilson, Liz.  _Charming Cadavers: Horrific Figurations of the Feminine in
Indian Buddhist Hagiographic Literature_, Chicago: U. of Chicago Press,
1996.

Happy Hunting,

Stuart




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jan  9 08:07:54 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 03:07:54 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055074.23782.8913753194804243171.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/7/00 10:23:10 PM Central Standard Time,
abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes:


>  The issue discussed is the nation state based on language as a creation of
>  post-Renaissance Europe imported into India and the identity of the
citizen
> of such a
>  state . The issue is not languages and their territories in India and
> whether people
>  were named denominated after the language they spoke.

But, here is what Gupt asked earlier.

 "I would like to ask Indologist to comment if any 19th century  Indian would
 have said that he /she is Tamilian, Maliyali, Bengalii, or Hindi-bhaas.ii?
Did bhaas.aa make up identity as of now ?"

There is no mention of a nation-state here.


>  In all humility I must assert that description of languages spread over
> territories  in
>  ancient or medieval Indian sources do not make a case for carving, making
> and unmaking a
>  state, sovereign or subsidiary, on linguistic basis.

In all humility, I would rather agree with the basic tenet, "One hardly knows
what any division of the human race should be free to do, if not to
determine, with which of the various collective bodies of human beings they
choose to associate themselves." Their rationale for such association may be
explained as follows.  "A portion of mankind may be said to constitute a
Nationality, if they are united among themselves by common sympathies, which
do not exist between them and any others--which make them to cooperate with
each other more willingly than with other people, desire to be under the same
government, and desire that it should be government by themselves or a
portion of themselves, exclusively. This feeling of nationality may have been
generated by various causes. Sometimes it is the effect of identity of race
and descent. Community of language, and community of religion, greatly
contribute to it. Geographical limits are one of its causes. But the
strongest of all is identity of political antecedents; the possession of a
national history, and consequent community of recollections; collective pride
and humiliation, pleasure and regret, connected with the same incidents in
the past. None of these circumstances however are either indispensable, or
necessarily sufficient by themselves."

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sun Jan  9 08:20:35 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 03:20:35 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055075.23782.17993727957296066145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/7/00 10:23:10 PM Central Standard Time,
abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes:

>Why Tamil country only,
> Saurashtra,
>  Gauda,Aavanti, Magadha, Pancanada , Gandhaara,  and so many other regions
> and their
> people were given the same name as the language spoken by them.

I think we have to be more precise. Of the names cited above which are
primarily place names and which are primarily language names? In other words,
we should eliminate those cases where the name of people is derived from the
place name. In the case of Tamil, the language name is primary and the place
name and the people's name are derived names.

> But did any
> monarch stop
>  his conquering army after he reached the limits of his native language
> territory?  He
>  may be described, let us say, as a Tamil king, but he was not chosen to
rule
>  tamil-speakers only. In the logic of state making language had no place.

Did the European monarchs stop at the limits of their linguistic regions?
Didn't any European state have people speaking different languages in them?

>
>  The language identity did not play cardinal role in making marital
allinaces
> as did
>  gotra, varna and jaati nor were the army battalions marked along
linguistic
> lines.

Did the European monarchs contract marriages within the linguistic group
"representing" their own state?

>  Soldiers would cook and eat according to varna-jati not as
Maratha-brothers
> or
>Andhra-biddas.

What is the basis for this statement?  Classical Tamil tradition makes no
such varna/jAti distinctions among the eating and drinking of soldiers.

>  Linguistic state means that everything shall be done in ONE language from
> selling fruits
>to teaching scriptures.

Was there such an European state?

> Historically,
> most Indians
> except the poor and uneducated have never been mono-lingual.

What is the approximate percentage Gupt has in mind when he says  "most"? If
indeed Indians had this extraordinary multi-lingual ability, how come even
after more than a century of English as the official language, English is
understood by only 2.5% according to Gupt? What is the percentage of the
speakers of the Hindi dialects/languages who understand a Dravidian language?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  9 15:19:52 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 07:19:52 -0800
Subject: Sanskrit language
Message-ID: <161227055080.23782.17596642820110595623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. M. Deshpande, saMskRtasubodhinI, has an essay, Sanskrit
language. From it:
"Sanskrit, as a second language, was also substantilly influenced by
influenced by the first langauges of its speakers, be they Indo-Aryan
vernaculars such as the Prakrits or non-Aryan tongues such as
the Dravidian languages of South India. At the same time, as the
elite language par excellence, Sanskrit exerted tremendous influence
on Indo-Aryan and non-Aryan vernaculars. *In almost every case,
the literary vernaculars were in fact Sanskritzied varieties of
languages*. ..."

The last statement has a well-known, unique exception: sangam tamil
texts. Sangam literary products are in no way a Sanskritized variety.
In vocabulary or in the contents. The metalanguage of sangam texts
is Tamil.

Regards,
N. Ganesan





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Sun Jan  9 07:42:37 2000
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 07:42:37 +0000
Subject: origins of Pali
In-Reply-To: <20000108222612.21521.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055078.23782.5194280725455367885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, EJVS, 1999 is quoted as saying:

>But it has a form closer to meluHHa in Middle Indian (MIA): Pali, the
>church language of S. Buddhism which originated as a western N. Indian
>dialect (roughly, between Mathura, Gujarat and the Vindhya) has
>milakkha, milakkhu.

The view that Pali is a western dialect is largely dependent upon the
Girnar version of the edicts of the Emperor Asoka. But there is much
evidence to show that the similarities are due to the scribe at
Girnar i.e. he has in effect Sanskritized (or put in a more 'learned'
form) his exemplar. This naturally produces similarities with Pali,
itself a Sanskritized form of Middle Indian.

K.R.Norman has discussed this point in various papers. It seems more
likely that Pali originates somewhere further east i.e. in the area
of larger Maagadha, rather than in the narrower area where the
Maagadhii dialect (as later defined by grammarians) was spoken.

L.S. Cousins

OXFORD, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:
L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  9 17:45:16 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 09:45:16 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055082.23782.1702302132896196156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>

SA: In fact all of Tamil Nadu was part of Aurangzeb's empire, as were
Afghanistan, Tibet and Pakistan. Indeed, Auranzeb's empire was the largest
Indian empire ever built.
VA: Wrong! The southern parts of Malabar and Tamil Nadu were not under
Aurangzeb and in his own lifetime, Tanjore etc. were freed by the Marathas.
Tibet too was never a part of Moghul Empire, not did it ever accept its
authority. Even Ladakh was out of bounds of the Moghuls. Much of Southern
and Western Afghanistan belonged to the Persian empire. Kandahar was lost
during the reign of Shah Jehan. When the latter sent the Moghul army to
recapture it, the Muslim Iranians attacked the Moghul soldiers while the
latter were offering their morning Namaz and so the battle was lost. The
muslim Pathans and Uzbeks etc. made life hell for Aurangzeb and he
eventually paid money to them to buy peace. Much of Baluchistan (45% of
present Pakistan) too was under the Persian Empire. The Empire of Ashoka, in
contrast, included the whole of Afghanistan, Pakistan and much of Bangladesh
and Nepal, and stretched right upto the borders of Tamil Nadu/Kerala.
Therefore, the Ashokan Empire was larger than that of Aurangzeb.
_________________________________
SA: Prior to him, the Delhi Sultanate also
managed to conquer all of the South - something Asoka could not do.
VA: This is because after the battle of Kalinga, Ashoka did not try to do
so. And Samudragupta did defeat numerous rulers of South India and similarly
the Chola rulers defeated numerous rulers of N India (upto the Ganges) and
abroad.
_____________________________
SA: BTW Muslims attribute the decline of these empires due to a rise
in"destructive polytheism".
VA: As usual, the Islamic perspective of things contradicts the objective,
correct, rational and humanistic perspectives of those things. To quote: "To
most Hindus, Akbar is one of the greatest of Muslim Emperors of India and
Aurangzeb one of the worst; to many Muslims, the opposite is the case. To an
outsider there can be little doubt that Akbar's way was the right
one...Akbar disrupted the Muslim community by reconignizing that India is
not an Islamic country: Aurangzeb disrupted India by behaving as though it
were."
Pg. 227 of 'The Great Moghuls' by Bamber Gascoigne; London; 1976

The mercies of Islamic monotheism on us Kafirs indeed have been many: Loot,
rapes, plunder, massacres, enslavement, destruction of Universities and
Temples, book burning, Jizyah, bride lifting,........., HIJACK of Indian
Airlines Flight to Kandahar.

Someone had, in the past pointed the following website
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/

On the relative merits of polytheism and monotheism, I rest the matter here
because it is beyond the scope of Indology. You may read the book "Why I am
not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq for a discussion by an apostate Muslim. The
purchase information and a review of the book are available at:
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/bookstore/bookrev/wianam.html

_____________________________________

SA: It is psecs who created such states in the first place;
VA: If Congress is psec and BJP etc. are Hindu Nationalist, then who are the
secular parties? Jamait e Ittehadul Musleeman? Islamic Swayamsevak Sangh?
Indian Union Muslim League?
__________________________

SA:Even the names, `Uttaranchal`,
`Vananchal` are Sanskrit instead of the Hindi `Uttarakhand` or
`Jharkhand`.
VA: The word 'Uttarakhand' is as Sanskritic as 'Uttaranchal'.
___________________________


 > VA: Therefore, the Dravidian Nationalists should vote for the Cong.

SA:Probably you mean "Dravidians should vote for BJP". Indeed, there was an
article in the Tamil Tribune some time back on this interesting alliance.
Indeed, Sanskritists stand to gain in the South by taking an anti-Hindi
stance. Just some advice for the sangh. :)

VA: Please keep your Islamic advice and Wisdom to yourself. Or you may write
directly to the Sangh. I and other secular Indians are quite happy with the
current Linguistic scenario in India.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jan  9 09:46:56 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 09:46:56 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055067.23782.4140387841694182278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lars Martin Fosse wrote:
> Thank you for correcting my slightly messy statement! It illustrates that a
> script system does not have to make note of every possible sound in the
> phonetic system. It is enough to be reasonably unambiguous. Context and
> linguistic competence will take care of the rest.

I would venture to suggest ," a script system cannot make note of
every..."
It was with this view that I questioned Thiru Ganesan's enthusiastic
desire to replace
all Indian scripts by Roman for the sake of global convenience .

I am also surprised that whereas in the age of paper-print multiplicity
of scripts was a
hurdle in communication, in the age of electronic interface every variety
can be
preserved and made to appear at the press of a single key. Even Granthi
and Sharda can
be made available and the demand of some quarters that might have seemed
preposterous
once is now a child's play.  If old scripts from different parts of the
world are
avaialable they shall continue to contribute towards the creation of new
ones.

It is not uniformity that is needed, but variety and software experts are
keen enough to
provide it to us who are soft-headedly yielding to uniformity.

Ten years ago C-DAC, Pune had provided a font that shall convert any
Indian script into
any other incuding Roman with diacriticals. Much more can be done.
Bharat Gupt




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jan  9 20:56:20 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 12:56:20 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055089.23782.1130465593100051103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG>> vAcaspati's nyAya works, dated in the late 10th century, will
NG>> pose a problem for accepting 700 CE as Sankara's date. It is
NG>> more likely that Sankara flourished around 900 CE, give or take
NG>> a few decades.

Dr. Stern: <<
I fail to see a strong connection between problem of vAcaspati's date,
and the question of zagkara's.
>>

vAcasapati's late 10th century date was quoted because his supposedly
writing of bhAmatI commentary in *840 CE* is cited as proof for
Sankara's 800CE date in many academic publications. Sankara's 800 CE
or even earlier dates cannot be sustained with available evidence.
What is generally presented for 800 CE date is 1) Cambodian
inscription of the time of Indravarman. That Khmer Sankara has nothing
to do with advaita since any word connecting the inscription with the
subject of advaita is lacking there. Adi Sankara did not travel to
Khmer empire, then Sivasoma should have come to South India to study.
Sivasoma mentions all the subjects studied under the tutorship of
Sankara but except advaita-like ones! No Sankaravijaya book mentions
a Khmer  student. 2) The Pallavan frieze has nothing to do with the
advaita Sankara also and, 3) the vAcaspati's date of late 10th century
does not work favorably for 800CE or earlier dates either.

Have not seen much published on the relationship of Santarakshita
and Sankara's date. It is indeed striking that Santarakshita
and Kamalasila's work never mentions Sankara, the pre-eminent author
of 400 works in poetry and philosophy (Kunjunni Raja).
But that very book convolutedly dates Sankara himself! How firm are
Kamalasila's dates?(I read many). What is the reliability of Tibetan
texts used for dating 6-8th century works? Were there 2 umbeka-s?

I humbly request Dr. Thrasher to give a summary on Sankara's date.

Let us look at the evidence from Sankara's native country:
Dr. Palaniappan has given the inscription giving the upper limit
for Sankara on 4 Nov 1999. R.C.Majumdar in his edition of Cambodian
inscriptions is very skeptical of Sankara's connection with Khmer
country and says that no literary or inscriptional evidence exists
in India to fix Sankara's date. This has to be revised.

SP<<<
the earliest reference linking Kaladi and Sankara is a Tamil
inscription that belongs to the 20th regnal year of mARavarman2
cuntarapANtiyan2 I (1235-36 A.D.). The inscription (SII 5, no. 431)
is in the nellaiyappar temple in tirunelvEli in Tamilnadu. The
interesting aspect of this inscription is that it does not refer to
Sankara directly. Instead, it refers to a Pandiyan official/chieftain
who had a linga installed at the temple in the following words:

"kAlaTiccaGkaran azakiyaperumALAn2a mazavarAyar pUcittu ikkOyilil
AzrayalimgamAka ezuntaruLuvitta cokkan2Arkku.."

Here a person has been named kAlaTiccaGkaran (Sankara of Kaladi).
If we take this person to be the father of azakiyaperumAL, the
mazavarAyar, then the father should have received the name probably
towards the end of the 12th century. From the details in the
inscription, we know that the family belonged to the western
Tirunelveli region. So the name kAlaTi (Kaladi) did not refer to the
natal village of anybody in the chieftain's family. So, unless we have
a kAlaTi in tirunelvEli region, the person was indeed named after
Sankara of Kaladi.

What is particularly interesting is that kAlaTiccaGkaran was a
non-brahmin official who would otherwise be called a veLLALa or zUdra.
cEkkizAr, the veLLALa minister of the Chola king, refers to veLLALas
as zUdras in his periyapurANam of the 12th century. Moreover, cEkkizAr
was the one who called a Chola king known for his impartial justice
as "manu nIti".
>>>

Along with Palaniappan's Pandyan evidence, an earlier interesting
inscription from the Chola heart land must be considered. This
was discovered by K. Sridharan, Archaeology Officer, State dept.
of archaeology, Tiruchy about 10 years ago. The inscription is from
KailAsam uDaiyAr temple, now in ruins at the village called
CholamAdevi. Near TiruveRumbiyUr, Tiruchy town.
The inscription is dated to 1065 CE, in the reign of Viira
Rajendra Cholan. Vira Rajendran was a grandson of Rajaraja I
and the son of Rajendra Chola I who had a big navy. The inscription
is in Tamil, and starts with the distinct "meykkIrtti" (skt. pracAsti)
of Vira Rajendra. Each Chola or Pandya king had a separate
"meykkIrtti" whose length will grow with each victory.

This CholamAdevi tamil inscription of 1065 A.D. records donation of
land by the Village Council for the purpose of expounding the
commentary (vArttikam) called pradIpakam, penned by ChidAnanda
BhaTTArar on the "bhagavatpAdIyam sArIraka bhASyam". The words
after the pracAsti section:

  pANTikulAcan2i vaLanATTu piramatEyam zrI cOzhamAtEvi
  caruppEti maGkalattu peruGkuRi capaiyOm tirumAtiri
  nalcAlai AzhvAr tirumuRRattu .. kUTTam kuRaivaRak
  kUTiyiruntu paNippaNiyAl paNittu pakavatpAtIyam cArIraka
  pASyattukku citAnanta piTArar paNNina piratIpakam AkiRa
  vArttikam vakkaNippArkku viruttiyAka viTTa nilam ...

Adisankara calls his brahmasUtra bhASyam as "sArIraka mImAmsa".
In this 1065 CE inscription, it is called "bhagavatpAdIyam
sArIraka bhASyam". This is the oldest inscription that definitively
mentions Adisankara anywhere.

While trying to fix the date of Sankara who purportedly wrote
400 texts, it is hard to believe that the eminent philosopher
remained hidebound for centuries. Note that Pallavas and Imperial
Cholas were great patrons of Sanskrit learning. In the Pallava
period, the Saivaite Nayanmars and Vaishnava Alvars start
figuring in inscriptions a little after their times.
Take the case of Ramanujar, his bronzes exist from his lifetime
in the Chola times.

VAcaspati's late 10th century nyAya works and the two tamil
inscriptions in 1065 CE and 1235-6 CE from Chola and Pandyan
kings point rather to a late date, than conventionally believed.
Sankara could well have lived around 900 CE.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

----------------------------------------------
NG>> Also, Kunjunni Raja in ALB, v.24, 1960 has given arguments that
NG>> go against 700 CE date for Sankara. Kunjunni informs that
NG>> for Santarakshita (705-62) and Kamalasila (713-63), Sankara's
NG>> teachings were unknown.
-----------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Sun Jan  9 19:16:25 2000
From: jnye at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (James Nye)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 13:16:25 -0600
Subject: Looking for info on Grantha script
Message-ID: <161227055087.23782.4055438822566496349.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The text of K. Venugopalan's _A Primer in Grantha Characters_ is available
at <http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/southasia/grantha.html>.  The page
images are sized for printing and not for display, so the individual GIF
files are too large to consult easily on most viewers.  This should improve
as I have time to work on the files over the next month or so.

James Nye
Bibliographer for Southern Asia
University of Chicago

>Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:31:16 +0100
>From:    BP Jonsson <bpj at NETG.SE>
>Subject: Looking for info on Grantha script
>
>Dear Indologists,
>
>I'm looking for information on the Grantha script, but it is hard to come
>by where I am, so I would be very grateful for any help you can offer.  All
>I got so far--shame to say--is a photocopy of a rather poorly printed chart
>showing the basic ak.saras.  Thus any reference to sources that would be
>generally available by interlibrary loan at western libraries would be of
>interst, but especially so information on how conjunct characters are
>formed.  I would be equally grateful if somebody could provide me with
>scanned images; in that case please contact me by private email at
><bpj at netg.se>.  Please note that I subscribe to Indology in subject-index
>form only, so I would appreciate if on-list responses are cc-ed to the same
>address!
>
>Bhavatu vah sarvam mangalam!
>
>
>/BP
>
>B. Philip Jonsson <mailto: bpj at netg.se> <mailto: melroch at my-deja.com>
>
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>~ The parents spoke French and the governess German, and  ~
>~ at school Latin was spoken.  The tongue of the country  ~
>~ the boy had to learn in the streets.                    ~
>~                            (after L. Holberg 1684-1754) ~
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Sun Jan  9 21:57:37 2000
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon (Kettenpom))
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 13:57:37 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055096.23782.7626088823815876743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence


> To classify the human populations of Asia 50,000 years ago as
> "pre-caucasoid" is poor analysis and linked with earlier Eurocentric
> racial mythology.
>
> In fact, given recent evidence that the out of Africa migration of
> modern humans began during this period, the people could be more
> accurately described as proto-Africoid. In phenotype, their remains were
> closest to modern Papuans, Fijians or Australian Aborigines only
> shorter.
>
> Since, it is likely that all the non-African "racial" groups originated
> from this exodus, one cannot classify this deme simply as
> "proto-caucasoid" or "proto-mongoloid" or whatever.
>

"Likely"?  What do the DNA or mitochondrial surveys say?


> Also, the linguistic and archaeological evidence does *not* support a
> West Asian origin for Dravidian.  SUsing the standard techniques of
> greatest diversity and least moves, the point of origin of this language
> family would be squarely in South Asia.
>

The languages of 50,000 years ago are so far removed from the languages of
the last 10,000 years or so as to be almost beyond study.  The relevance of
population and language movements of 50,000 years ago to the question of the
origin of Dravidian would seem to be nil, as you might agree?


> The earliest modern "Australoid" phenotypes occur in Sumatra not in the
> "Mediterranean." And the authors fail to note that the mtDNA strains of
> the vast majority of Indians tested are significantly closer to East
> Asians than to Europeans or "Middle Easterners" that were tested.
>

I think the point of the authors probably had more to do with -disproving-
any large maternal DNA contribution to the South Asian populations than with
trying to -prove- anything about modern and more recent (a few thousand
years or so) changes.

Even so, one wonders what the ratio of women to men were in those "Aryan"
tribal excursions into India.  Were they like the Greek onslaught on Troy,
composed almost solely of men?  Or if not, how many men originally does the
DNA imply in total, if one assumes that most of them arrived in the
centuries in which the "Aryans" came, however they did it?  I don't believe
that data can say a thing about that.

Much ado about very little, perhaps?




From nupam at MED.UNC.EDU  Sun Jan  9 17:51:00 2000
From: nupam at MED.UNC.EDU (Dr. Nupam Mahajan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 17:51:00 +0000
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055085.23782.5929780331389893408.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello friends,

Recently I noticed two papers which are published in Current Biology
(London) which provided some interesting data  regarding the supposed Aryan
invasion of India. They have used the mitochondrial DNA sequencing
followed by restriction fragment length polymorphism to substantiate
their interpretation. The references are as follows:

1. Human evolution: The southern route to Asia
Todd R. Disotell
Current Biology, Vol 9, No 24, pp R925-R928

2. Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian
mitochondrial DNA lineages
T. kivisild et. al.
Current Biology, Vol 9, No 22, pp 1331-134

Those of who who may take bit of time to get these two papers, I am
enclosing  their findings (relevant paragraphs, ditto) below.

"Research on human origins has tended to focus on the origins of western
Eurasians: only recently have genetic studies examined south and east asian
populations in depth. Recent work suggests that the supposed Aryan invasion
of India 3000-4000 years ago was much less significant than is generally
believed."

"The first and the most profound layer of overlap between the
western-Eurasian and the Indian mtDNA lineage relates to haplotype U, a
complex mtDNA lineage cluster with an estimated age of 51,000-67,000 years.
We calculated the coalescence age essentially as described (ref 15,17) and
estimate the split between the Indian and western-Eurasian U2 lineage as
53,000 +/- 4,000 years before present".

"Typical western-Eurasian mtDNA lineage found in India belongs to
haplogroups H,I,J, T,X and to subclass U1,U4, U5 and K haplogroup U.
Frequencies of these lineages in Indian populations are more than an order
of magnitude lower than in Europe:5.2% versus 70%. This finding might be
explained by gene flow. Neverthless, we note that the frequency of these
mtDNA haplotypes reveals neither a strong north-south, nor language-based
gradient; they are found in both among Hindi speakers from Uttar Pradesh
(6%) and Dravidians of Andhra pradesh (4%). Assuming that they are largely
of western-Eurasian origin, we may ask when their spread started. We
obtained divergence time of 9300 +/- 3000 years. This is an average over an
unknown number of various founders and therefore, does not tell us whether
there were one or many migration waves, or whether there was a continous
long-lasting gradual admixture. Their low frequency but still general spread
all over India plus the estimated time scale, does not support a recent
massive Indo-Aryan invasion, at least as far as maternally inherited genetic
lineage are concerned. Furthermore, the spread of these
western-Eurasian-specific mtDNA clusters also among Dravidic-speaking
populations of India lends credence to the suggested linguastic connection
between Elamite and Dravidian populations".

(I would add here that, the sperm does not contribute mitochondria during
the fertilization with egg, thus allow the molecular biologist to decide the
age based on the rare of mutation, the time scale at molecular level.Thus,
the mitochondrial inheritance is almost always maternal. This is perhaps the
most reliable method and has been used widely.)

"The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3000-4000 years before present
therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is
especialy counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low,
frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and
northern india. Thus, the `Caucasoid' features of south Asians (Indians) may
best be considered `pre-caucasoid' -that is, part of diverse north or north
east western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago".

I hope this helps to many scholars in this list.

Best wishes,

Nupam

Dr. Nupam Mahajan, PhD, FRNS
Room 230, CB#7295
Lineberger Comprehensive Cancer Center
UNC, Chapel Hill, Nc 27599, USA

http://www.med.unc.edu/~nupam




From Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU  Mon Jan 10 01:23:11 2000
From: Mehta at MGMT.PURDUE.EDU (Mehta, Shailendra)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 20:23:11 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics - Hindi
Message-ID: <161227055102.23782.2399078281288638888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Periannan Chandrasekaran <perichandra at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

"Kamba ramayana has made its mark in the North; accorindg  to UVS Iyer in
his
book "piRkAlattup pulavarkaL" a compendium of "latter day poets", Thulasidas
got inspired by kumarakurupara swamikaL's lectures on kampa rAmAyaNa  at the
varaNasi caiva mutt (which he established with the financial assistance of a
muslim ruler) to compose his version of ramayana."

Fascinating! If this influence is indeed well established it deserves to
more broadly known. Are there discernable influences of Kampan Ramayana on
Tuslidas? Is this more of an influence than Valmiki's Ramayana?  The answers
to these questions would be critical in establishing Iyer's thesis.

Would you be so kind as to quote in detail from Iyer's book since I, and I
suspect most of the members of Indology, do not have access to it.


As an aside, in what language did Kumarakurupara lecture?

Best regards,

Shailendra Raj Mehta.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 10 06:58:47 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 22:58:47 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055103.23782.13076511077102816356.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"David Salmon (Kettenpom)" <dsalmon at SALMON.ORG> wrote:

>Even so, one wonders what the ratio of women to men were in those "Aryan"
>tribal excursions into India.  Were they like the Greek onslaught on Troy,

That is precisely what the Aryan migrations into India were NOT, according
to contemporary scholars. If you search the archives of this list, you will
find that most of them deny a scenario where Aryan hordes made an onslaught
on the subcontinent. A natural extension of the search for new pastures is
more like it.

>composed almost solely of men?  Or if not, how many men originally does the
>DNA imply in total, if one assumes that most of them arrived in the
>centuries in which the "Aryans" came, however they did it?  I don't believe
>that data can say a thing about that.

Mitochondrial DNA is inherited solely from the mother, as they are found
only in ova, and not in sperm. The data in the said papers can say
absolutely nothing about how many men originally were involved. For that,
you will have to study something inherited solely from the father. However,
if you know biology, you will find there is no such thing. During production
of haploid reproductive cells, there is a phenomenon called cross-over,
where portions of DNA from complementary chromosomes are mixed up, in order
to ensure greater genetic diversity. In other words, the Y chromosome sperm
produced by a man is not identical to the Y chromosome sperm that produced
him. It carries genetic material inherited from both his father and his
mother. Mitochondiral DNA is insulated from such a phenomenon, so that the
only thing producing changes in it is the rate of mutation. Studies on Y
chromosomes have to worry about unknown variables other than rates of
mutation, which is why mitochondrial DNA evidence is inherently more
reliable.

>
>Much ado about very little, perhaps?

Actually, rather significant, I should think. Especially if you combine the
genetic evidence with the updated theories of when and how Aryans migrated
into the subcontinent.

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 10 07:13:03 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 00 23:13:03 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055105.23782.11292907456974971096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>vAcasapati's late 10th century date was quoted because his supposedly
>writing of bhAmatI commentary in *840 CE* is cited as proof for
>Sankara's 800CE date in many academic publications. Sankara's 800 CE
>or even earlier dates cannot be sustained with available evidence.
>What is generally presented for 800 CE date is 1) Cambodian
>inscription of the time of Indravarman. That Khmer Sankara has nothing
>to do with advaita since any word connecting the inscription with the
>subject of advaita is lacking there. Adi Sankara did not travel to
>Khmer empire, then Sivasoma should have come to South India to study.
>Sivasoma mentions all the subjects studied under the tutorship of
>Sankara but except advaita-like ones! No Sankaravijaya book mentions
>a Khmer  student. 2) The Pallavan frieze has nothing to do with the
>advaita Sankara also and, 3) the vAcaspati's date of late 10th century
>does not work favorably for 800CE or earlier dates either.


1. Forget the Cambodian inscription, and the Sankaravijaya silence about a
Khmer student. All the hagiographies are late texts, and can be safely set
aside for purposes of chronology. They do carry other kinds of useful
historical information regarding the development of the Advaita Vedanta
tradition, but not for deciding Sankara's date.
2. Forget the Pallava friezes too, as being inconclusive.
3. If Vacaspati's date is not 841 CE, it can only be 976 CE. All that this
indicates is that Sankara lived some time before 976 CE. If we didn't have
other evidence to prove otherwise, Sankara's date could well be 300 CE, or
800 CE, or any other date before 976 CE. As things stand, there is
sufficient evidence to consider as improbable, any  date before 700 CE. Any
reconsideration of Vacaspati's date can extend the range one assigns for
Sankara's date, but it cannot absolutely deny any of the earlier accepted
dates. There are good discussions of the relevant evidence in Nakamura's
book on early Vedanta, in Mayeda's translation of the Upadesasahasri and in
Potter's Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies (v. 3).

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Mon Jan 10 03:00:05 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 03:00:05 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055094.23782.1219302263082267914.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> In the case of Tamil, the language name is primary and the place
> name and the people's name are derived names.

Can we be really sure, this seems more like, who came first chicken or the egg.
,
> > But did any
> > monarch stop
> >  his conquering army after he reached the limits of his native language
> > territory?
>
> Did the European monarchs stop at the limits of their linguistic regions?
> Didn't any European state have people speaking different languages in them?

The formation of the modern European states coincides with the decline in the power of
monarchy, rise of the middle-class raised on printed books and partial democratic
assertion. The territory of these states was MORE OR LESS linguistic. There is no
denying the fact that when print made a language visible and marked it as territory, a
new consciousness about linguistic territory came into force which was impossible when
language was only spoken and not seen in such abundance as after print. This was
different from Latin and Greek keeping the European intelligensia together, the Church
providing them employment or lands, and the royalty demarking them on dynastic lines. In
India too,when from mid 19th century till thirties of the last century,  when more books
were printed than in the whole of Europe, a different and acute consciouness about
languages and native tongues came into existence.

> >
> >  The language identity did not play cardinal role in making marital
> > allinaces
> > as did
> >  gotra, varna and jaati nor were the army battalions marked along
> >linguistic
> > lines.
>
> Did the European monarchs contract marriages within the linguistic group
> "representing" their own state?
>
> >  Soldiers would cook and eat according to varna-jati not as
>> Maratha-brothers
> > or
> >Andhra-biddas.
>
> What is the basis for this statement?  Classical Tamil tradition makes no
> such varna/jAti distinctions among the eating and drinking of soldiers.

Different castes eating in different groups was even an urban phenomena, till forty
years ago in marriages and functions. I remember it from my own childhood. Even "Hindu
water" was sold on Railway platforms. How could soldiers be an exception? "Jitnii Jaat
Utne Choole" (As many cooking fires as many Castes) was a proverb in Hindi used till not
long ago.

> >  Linguistic state means that everything shall be done in ONE language from
> > selling fruits
> >to teaching scriptures.
>
> Was there such an European state?
> I quote from somebody's mail, to show the earlier situation.
~ The parents spoke French and the governess German, and  ~
~ at school Latin was spoken.  The tongue of the country  ~
~ the boy had to learn in the streets.                    ~
~                            (after L. Holberg 1684-1754) ~

It is not the total exclusion of other languages but the prioritisation of the
mother-tongue and the consequent "enrichment" by translation into that tongue of every
kind of information for the citizen of the nation-state or the Indian provincial state
that indicates a bias in the favour of ONE language.

> > Historically,
> > most Indians
> > except the poor and uneducated have never been mono-lingual.

> What is the approximate percentage Gupt has in mind when he says  "most"?

Except the poor, the rich, the learned and well employed  spoke Sanskrit for profession,
the Prakrits to wives, servants,children and prostitutes,( in medieval times Persian or
Turkish and the dialects). The educated, the rasikas, and better travelled were
certainly familiar with more than one Prakrit as is obvious from India's multilingual
theatre and music, and Manipravaal traditions of poetry. In later centuries,
Brijbhaas.aa was the language of music in all North and even Svati Tirunal, I am told
composed in it.


> If indeed Indians had this extraordinary multi-lingual ability, how come even
> after more than a century of English as the official language, English is
> understood by only 2.5% according to Gupt? What is the percentage of the
> speakers of the Hindi dialects/languages who understand a Dravidian language?

Because English is not an Indian language and because the British were not here to
educate but rule. They taught a few for administration. But now there is hope as the
best Indian writing is in English as Rushdie informs us.

It is for Southern States to conduct such a survey (as Northerners will not tell the
truth), and offer incentives, north-south  marriages for instance (I am looking for my
computer engineer sons two brides, Bharatnatyam dancers or classical singers preferred,
Dikshitar's Sanskrit Kritis not necessary, no dowry, caste no bar, send mail off
Indology).
>From me no more on this thread.
Regards,
Bharat Gupt




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 10 12:51:26 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 04:51:26 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055113.23782.12291131127276175080.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Earlier, experts have not considered the existence of important tamil
inscriptions that are useful about knowing Sankaran period.
VAcaspati's late 10th century nyAya works and the two tamil
inscriptions in 1065 CE and 1235-6 CE from Chola and Pandyan
kings point rather to a late date, than conventionally believed.
Sankara could well have lived around 900 CE.

Generally, Sanskrit material is given liberal dates. Contemporary
scholarship indicates the plausible dates for the Rig Veda as
1000 BCE and Buddha's date being  brought forward by 100+ years.
Another example is Kalidasa to be post-CilappatikAram.

In line with the RV, Buddha, so called "Bhasa's plays", etc.,
Sankara's date might well be around 900 A.D. rather than the usual
800 A.D. No need to emphasize the importance of Chola and Pandya
inscriptins relevant to the study of Sankara.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

Part of my old posting:
Adisankara calls his brahmasUtra bhASyam as "sArIraka mImAmsa".
In this 1065 CE inscription, it is called "bhagavatpAdIyam
sArIraka bhASyam". This is the oldest inscription that definitively
mentions Adisankara anywhere.

While trying to fix the date of Sankara who purportedly wrote
400 texts, it is hard to believe that the eminent philosopher
remained hidebound for centuries. Note that Pallavas and Imperial
Cholas were great patrons of Sanskrit learning. In the Pallava
period, the Saivaite Nayanmars and Vaishnava Alvars start
figuring in inscriptions a little after their times.
Take the case of Ramanujar, his bronzes exist from his lifetime
in the Chola times.

VAcaspati's late 10th century nyAya works and the two tamil
inscriptions in 1065 CE and 1235-6 CE from Chola and Pandyan
kings point rather to a late date, than conventionally believed.
Sankara could well have lived around 900 CE.

Regards,
N. Ganesan


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 10 14:57:01 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 06:57:01 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055119.23782.3734231679344596100.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>
>
> Where is the simplicity ? If most Roman alphabets  have to be given
> diacritical marks or many have to be combined to indicate sounds
> absent in European tongues, their number in practical usage goes
> above fifty as with Indian alphabets. The problem is not of the
> script but of the sounds. If they are more in Indian languages,
> then there is more to write also no matter in what way.

  European tongues do not have the sounds of Vietnamese or Zulu. Still, Latin
script is used. The same convenience of reading either German or French will be
available for Urdu and Bengali after script switch. SM


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 10 15:54:38 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 07:54:38 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055121.23782.1422683244142884933.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>Sankara could well have lived around 900 CE.

I agree, if Vacaspati's date is 976, rather than 841.

>Sankara's date might well be around 900 A.D. rather than the usual
>800 A.D.

I disagree. The inscription you note indicates that Sankara's influence was
not felt in the Tamil regions before the 11th century. It does not indicate
a greater probability for 900 CE as compared to 800 CE. As I said before,
the evidence indicates only an extension of the range of dates that one
could assign to Sankara. There is a  sufficient number of internal and cross
references in the literary evidence that cannot be ignored. If the
uncertainty is frustrating, welcome to the house of cards that Indian
chronology often can be.

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU  Mon Jan 10 14:25:52 2000
From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 08:25:52 -0600
Subject: WAVES Conference 2000
Message-ID: <161227055115.23782.17302174479762931278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends:
Greetings.  You perhaps already know that the World Association for
Vedic Studies is holding it's Third International Conference at the
Steven's Institute of Technology in Hoboken, NJ , July 28-30 2000. (The
details are found at http://www.sansar.com/WAVES/).
As a part of the Conference, several symposia are being organized,
including  one  concerning Ancient India's Contribution in Mathematics,
Science and Technology. Interested persons may submit abstracts to the
address given below.
Sincerely yours,
B. N. Narahari Achar

B. N. Narahari Achar
Professor of Physics
University of Memphis
Memphis TN 38152
email: nachar at memphis.edu
Tel No. (901) 678-3122 (Off.)
 (901) 767-1139 (Home)




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 10 16:59:01 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 08:59:01 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055125.23782.11184094350127969389.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Date:         Fri, 4 Jan 1980
 Note to our Founder: why this 3rd millennium message from Abhinav shows
 a 2nd mil. time? When I conduct a search test giving a date later
 than 1980, "search" fails to find this message. A bug, perhaps.

~It is a remarkably succint account of the Hindi-family (pl.dont translate
~as Parivaar), working and that is the big future of Hindi as Films, tv,
~and music-lit,pop fiction and even translations from other languages,
~have shown inspite of all  political hurdles.

 This view from Delhi is the summary coming from the Center-State,
modeled after 18-19th European statecraft. Even allowing private firms
for one-way broadcast media have moved folks away from AIR and
Doordarshan. I see a different future with Net's expansion in India;
Might have felt this from the responses to your mails in academic
lists. A reduction in internal colonialism, what Pollock calls as
"Deep Orientalism" working for millennia, is bound to happen with
the WWW.

The Net is a different animal: it is two-way channel, opposite
of newspaper, radio, film and tv which are usually, State tools
in the underdeveloped world.

Thanks and kind regards,
SM


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 10 18:28:49 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 10:28:49 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055132.23782.17465324976536067098.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   Probably, you are confusing roman script with roman numerals.
As recommended in the Indology homepage, a look/study into Indological
jls. and transliterated Indic into roman script (*NOT* roman numbers)
may help.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

PS: I have abou 10 books on place-value notation.


---------------------------------
RB>     I am confused. My impression is that the place value notation of
today was never used by romans. Even Binary     arithmatic in microchips is
dependant on the place value notation ( scaling up by an order magnitude
with a bit      shift). I would like to know about other non INdian cultures
which independantly evolved such a notation. The chinese        abacus would
be one example but I dont know if that predates such systems in India.

         Even the mordern arabic numerals used through out the world
resemble and originate from indian numerals.


regards

Rajarshi

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Jan 10 16:02:13 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 11:02:13 -0500
Subject: A Vedic Question
In-Reply-To: <20000110155438.77064.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055123.23782.10530515155952456112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This question may be too technical for all but the hard-core Vedic
scholars.  While looking at the Padapaa.tha for RV 4.16.6 and AV 20.77.6
which are identical with each other, I find that the last word vavru.h is
repeated:  vavrur iti vavru.h.  Such repetitions for the line-final words
are common in the Kramapaa.tha, but not in the Padapaa.tha.  Can anyone
think of why such a repetition might have come about in the Padapaa.tha.
Best,
                                        Madhav Deshpande




From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Jan 10 17:16:42 2000
From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 12:16:42 -0500
Subject: books for sale
In-Reply-To: <008101beaf2e$b1fa9b60$f6bfc5cb@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <161227055127.23782.13792922712066460580.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members:
    I have the following books for sale. If you would like any of them,
please contact me off line at grimesj at pilot.msu.edu. There will also be
postage/handling charges.  All these books are in very good to excellent to
brand new condition.

A Bridge of Dreams: The Story of Paramananda - Sara Ann Levinsky $8.00
A Dwelling Place for Wisdom - R. Panikkar $6.00 (new)
A Pilgrim Looks at the World, vol 1 Swami Ranganathananda hb $5.00
A Separate Reality - Carlos Castaneda $4.00
Alone with Others - Stephen Batchelor $5.00
Bhagavad Gita as It Is - Bhaktivedanta - $7.00
Bhagavad Gita with the Uttara Gita - Raghavan Iyer $10.00 (new)
Classic Tales of Mulla Nasreddin $4.00
Critical Isues in Modern Religion - Roger Johnson, et al. (new pb $7.00
Cultural Heritage of India: Aspeacts of Buddhist Culture - Subramaniam $5
Dasbodh of Samartha Ramdas - W. G. Tambwekar. $10.00 (new)
Delong: Journey to Realms Beyond Death - Delog Dawa Drolma - new $6.00
Dialogues on Reality - Robert Powell - Blue Dove $5.00
Early Advaita Vedanta & Buddhism - King SUNY new $7.00
Einstein's Space & Van Gogh's Sky - L. Leshan & Henry Margenau $5.00
Focus on Buddhism - McDermott $2.00
Focus on Hinduism - McDermott $2.00
>?From the Mating Dance to the Cosmic Dance - - Swami Radha hb new $10.00
Gesture o;f Balance - Tarthang Tulku - $5.00
Ghost Dance, LaBarre $5.00 (new)
Guru Gita Commentary (Shreegurugeetartheshwaree) by Kusumeshwa $5.00
History of God - Karen Armstory HB $10.00 (new)
Iconography of Sadasiva - Sharma - $5.00
Illustrated Ramayana: Rama; The Supreme Personality of Godhead - Swami
        Bhaktipad  $35.00 beautiful brand-new hb - (New it is $78.00)
Impact of Ramanuja's Teaching on Life and Conditions in India - G Lakshmana
$5.00
Insight into Yoga - Yoga Guru Mrityunjaya Rao - 2.00
In Search of the Divine Mother (Mother Meera) - Goodman - Harper $5.00
In the Company of the Wise - Swami Radha pb $5.00 (new)
In the Company of the Wise - Swami Sivananda Radha $8.00 (hb new)
In the Dark of the Heart: Song of Meera - S. Futehally - Harper $10.00 new hb
Introduction to Kashmir Shaivism - Muktananda '75 india ed. $2.00
Iyendar: His Life and Work - Timeless Books $5.00
Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths - Karen Armstrong $10.00 (new)
Kalachakra Tantra: Rite of Initiation- Hopkins $10.00
Kali Puja - Swami Satyananda Saraswati - $5.00
Knowledge and the Sacred - Seyyed Hossein Nasr - SUNY $8.00
Krishna and Christ - Ishanand - 10.00
Krishnamurti and the Rajagopals - Mary Lutyens $5.00
Lectures on the Ramayana, Rt Honorable Srinivasa Sastri HB $8.00
Lectures on Valmiki Ramayana - 6 vols - C Sitamurti's trans of S.
Appalacharyulu's                                        oral discourses in
Telegu $15.00 for set
Madame Blavatsky's Baboon - Peter Washington $10.00 new hb
Merlin - Goodrich $5.00
Mythology - Edith Hamilton hb $5.00
Nectarian Bliss of Sri Radha-Madhava (pamphlet)  $2.00
Only Love - Daya Mata $5.00
Papal Haranath pts 1-4 $10.00 (set)
Parahamsa Yogananda: In Memoriam $3.00
Prabhupada - Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami -  $5.00
Radha: Diary of a Woman's Search - Swami Radha pb new $5.00
Ramayana C Rajagopalachari Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan $4.00
Rig Veda Samhita vol 1 Bhumika - TV Kapali Sastry $5.00
Self as Image: In Asian Theory and Practice - Ames - SUNY $7.00 (new)
Sense Perception in Science & Sastras, Srinivasan Sharada Peethan, $5.00
Siva Bhakti - R. Nagaswamy - Navrang - $7.00 (hb)
Spiritual Quest: Transcendence in Myth, Religion, Science - R Torrance -U
of CA - $7.00 (new)
Sri Aurobindo Came to Me - Dilip Kumar Roy - Jaico bk $3.00
Sri Lalita Sahasranama - RK Math $5.00 (new)
Sri Visnu Sahasranama - RK Math $5.00 (new)
Srimad Ramayana by DS Sarma RKk Math $4.00
Suresvara's Vartika on Asva/Asvamedha Brahmana - Shoun Hino - 5.00
Swami Gnanananda - Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan $5.00
Thank You and OK: An American Zen Failure in Japan - Chadwick $10 (new)
The Betrayal of Krishna - Krishna Chaitanya - 10.00
The Bodhicaryavatara - Santideva (Oxford new) $5.00
The Buddhist Handbook - Snelling pb 1987 $5.00
The Buddhist Teaching o;f Totality - Garma CC Chang - $7.00
The Heart of the Buddha - Chogyam Trungpa - new $8.00
The Imitation of Christ - Thomas a Kempis pb $3.00
The Jewelled Staircase - Geshe Wangyal - new $6.00
The Logic of God Incarnate - Thomas V Morris (new pb $7.00
The Nectar of the Lord's Feet - Nisargadatta - - Blue Dove $5.00
The Psychedelic Experience - Tim Leary $5.00
The Question of Being: East Wests Perspectives - Mervyn Sprung ed. (Penn
State hb new - $10.00)
The Sabarimalai Pilgrimage & Ayyappan Cultus - Radhika Sekar $5.00
The Silence of God: The Answer to the Buddha - R Panikkar (new hb) $10.00
The Tibetan Book of the Dead - Evens-Wentz pb Oxford new $7.00
The Ultimate Medicine - Nisargadatta Maharaj - Blue Dove $5.00
The Word Speaks to the Faustian Man, vol 1Som Raj Gupta hb. $5.00
The Word Speaks to the Faustian Man, vol 2Som Raj Gupta hb. $5.00
The Word and the World - BK Matilal - $5.00
The Yoga Sutras of patanjali - Swami Satchidananda - 8.00 new
The Yoga Sutra of Patanjali - Bangali Baba  5.00
Thoughts and Aphorisms of Sri Aurobindo - Pondicherry $1.00
Thoughts on Ramayana - Panduranga Rao $5.00
Three Ways o;f Asian Wisdom = Nancy Wilson Ross hb $10.00
Tirumantiran of Tirumular hb $15.00
Vaisnavism: Contemporary Scholars Discuss the Gaudiya Tradition. Steven
Rosen (ed)  new  $10.00
Varities of Religious Experience - William James  hb/old 1963 ed. $5.00
Vasistha's Yoga, Venkatesananda SUNY $10.00
Vedanta Treatise - A Parthasarathy  hb $5.00
Walking with a Himalayan Master - Justin O'Brien  $10.00
Wisdom of the Mythtellers - Sean Kane - $5.00 (new)
Writings of Sri Krishna Prem - N N Kaul - Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan $5.00
Yatindramatadipika  tr  Swami Adidevananda  (old) $3.00
Yoga: 28 Day exercise plan - Richard Hittleman - 5.00




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Mon Jan 10 07:25:30 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 12:55:30 +0530
Subject: Vital Statistics
In-Reply-To: <20000109174516.87649.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055107.23782.11044613048367962257.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 9 Jan 2000, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
> Therefore, the Ashokan Empire was larger than that of Aurangzeb.

Firstly, Ashoka was a Nastik Buddhist. Whether Nastik Aurangzeb, Nastik
Ashoka or Nastik Clive things hardly matter from the Astik point of view.
Secondly, this statement is wrong, but I shall not belabour the point.
Interested readers may consult the numerous court chronicles to read for
themselves how Aurangzeb conquered Assam, Tibet, Afghanistan and Tamil
Nadu. Parts of Aurangzeb's empire were over-run with bandits, but these
were temporary phases.

> "To most Hindus, Akbar is one of the greatest of Muslim Emperors of
> India and Aurangzeb one of the worst; to many Muslims, the opposite is
> the case."

>?From the unbiased view of territorial extent, Aurangzeb's empire was
larger than Akbar's - even you have stated that the Deccan was included in
Aurangzeb's kingdom, but this was outside Akbar's power. From this fact
alone, Aurangzeb was greater than Akbar. Aurangzeb took a strong stand
against disruptive separatist elements, which was naturally disliked by
those fomenting the rebellions in the first place.

> VA: Please keep your Islamic advice and Wisdom to yourself. Or you may write
> directly to the Sangh. I and other secular Indians are quite happy with the
> current Linguistic scenario in India.

Of course, Baniya Vaishyas are not happy at the prospect of Brahmanic
Sanskrit replacing their beloved Khari Boli. Fortunately, there are many
Brahmins who will agree that Sanskrit needs some piece of the cake going
to Khari Boli. Seems you are the only one on this list to disagree with
me.

P.S. I shall not post any more on this thread due to lack of time.

Samar




From kekai at JPS.NET  Mon Jan 10 21:11:43 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 13:11:43 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055091.23782.9442363132850954585.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Dr. Nupam Mahajan" wrote:
>>
> "The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3000-4000 years before present
> therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is
> especialy counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low,
> frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and
> northern india. Thus, the `Caucasoid' features of south Asians (Indians) may
> best be considered `pre-caucasoid' -that is, part of diverse north or north
> east western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago".
>


To classify the human populations of Asia 50,000 years ago as
"pre-caucasoid" is poor analysis and linked with earlier Eurocentric
racial mythology.

In fact, given recent evidence that the out of Africa migration of
modern humans began during this period, the people could be more
accurately described as proto-Africoid. In phenotype, their remains were
closest to modern Papuans, Fijians or Australian Aborigines only
shorter.

Since, it is likely that all the non-African "racial" groups originated
from this exodus, one cannot classify this deme simply as
"proto-caucasoid" or "proto-mongoloid" or whatever.

Also, the linguistic and archaeological evidence does *not* support a
West Asian origin for Dravidian.  SUsing the standard techniques of
greatest diversity and least moves, the point of origin of this language
family would be squarely in South Asia.

The earliest modern "Australoid" phenotypes occur in Sumatra not in the
"Mediterranean." And the authors fail to note that the mtDNA strains of
the vast majority of Indians tested are significantly closer to East
Asians than to Europeans or "Middle Easterners" that were tested.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Mon Jan 10 18:11:56 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 13:11:56 -0500
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055130.23782.1875074540694751977.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

RB>Mathematics is less forgiving and we should remember that the world
>is now using the place value notation which Indians used very early in
>history. Imagine calculus, engineering, computer/microprocesser design
>based on roman numerals and its associated algebra.
>The sanskrit or tamil alphabet is a powerful abstraction, something on the
>lines of the periodic table of elements or taxonomy in biology.

NG>   The roman letters are preferred over the indian kind and, Indian
  place value notation in the world. Both for efficiency.

RB>     I am confused. My impression is that the place value notation of
today was never used by romans. Even Binary     arithmatic in microchips is
dependant on the place value notation ( scaling up by an order magnitude
with a bit      shift). I would like to know about other non INdian cultures
which independantly evolved such a notation. The chinese        abacus would
be one example but I dont know if that predates such systems in India.

        Even the mordern arabic numerals used through out the world
resemble and originate from indian numerals.


regards

Rajarshi




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jan 10 18:40:50 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 13:40:50 -0500
Subject: mitochondria and Indology (was Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence)
Message-ID: <161227055134.23782.7556416545501679003.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/10/00 12:59:33 AM Central Standard Time,
vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

> Mitochondrial DNA is inherited solely from the mother, as they are found
>  only in ova, and not in sperm.

I heard in a recent TV news that researchers have revised this conclusion.
There is also some contribution from the father. I am not able to recollect
the source. The broadcast said that conclusions regarding human evolution
(re. Lucy, etc.) and dispersal have to be revised.  Does anybody have the
reference on that? Has anybody looked into how this finding will affect the
present discussion?

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Mon Jan 10 08:24:13 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 13:54:13 +0530
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000010917510085@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227055109.23782.14083733486629405781.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Sun, 9 Jan 2000, Dr. Nupam Mahajan wrote:
> Neverthless, we note that ... these mtDNA haplotypes ...
> are found in both among Hindi speakers from Uttar Pradesh
> (6%) and Dravidians of Andhra pradesh (4%).

The work is very interesting, but the following points need to be noted: -
1. `Hindi Speakers' includes many Dravidoid Dalits in the North. Perhaps
some Black Untouchables were included in this survey ?

2. All the results of the papers can be explained in terms of the Semitic
factor, which is present in the North as a substratum to Indo-Aryan
genes, and in the South as a superstratum upon Africoid genes.

> "Assuming that they are largely of western-Eurasian origin, we may ask
> when their spread started. We obtained divergence time of 9300 +/- 3000
> years."

  This is exactly the time when the original Caucasoid stock split into
Semitic and Indo-European sub-stocks, an event which occurred ca. 10,000
BP in the Middle East. The genes they have analysed are essentially
Semitic genes, which they choose to label `Proto-Caucasoid', `Caucasoid'
in their view being restricted to Indo-Europeans. They have apparently not
analysed the Africoid sub-stratum of the Semitic `Proto-Caucasoid' stock.

> Their low frequency but still general spread
> all over India plus the estimated time scale, does not support a recent
> massive Indo-Aryan invasion, at least as far as maternally inherited genetic
> lineage are concerned.

Sanskrit texts record numerous terms based on `dasi' which indicates
significant concubinage of pre-Indo-European Semitic and Dravidoid women
in Indo-Aryan households. This custom continues in modern rural regions,
eg. the `deva-dasi' cults documented by Human Rights Watch -

http://www.hrw.org/hrw/reports/1999/india/India994-09.htm

Naturally, the `Aryan' offspring of such unions would inherit the mt DNA
which has been analysed, displaying Semitic or Mulatto ancestry. All
maternal trace of such an `Aryan invasion' would of course have been wiped
out. A fact confirmed by the two excellent papers cited by Dr N. Mahajan.

  The papers merely confirm what many researchers have been claiming for
long: that the `pure Vedic Aryan' race has been submerged in the Semitic
gene-pool in the North, and in the Africoid gene-pool in the South.
Research continues to prove that the modern-day `Indo-Aryans' are not the
legendary descendants of Aryan invaders, but in fact mixed-race
descendants of Aryan men and Semitic/Dravidoid women. The 2 papers suggest
something the more extreme nationalists should think about.

> Furthermore, the spread of these
> western-Eurasian-specific mtDNA clusters also among Dravidic-speaking
> populations of India lends credence to the suggested linguastic connection
> between Elamite and Dravidian populations".

Some contribution of Semitic stock to Dravidoid populations is to be
expected (corroborated by Mesopotamian-influenced art work found in the
IVC), but the essential base stock of Dravidians is Africoid, as Dr.
Manansala has pointed out. The Adi-Dravidas would naturally display a
higher degree of genetic affiliation with Africa and Australia.
However, a small `Elamite' genetic contribution is to be expected in non
Adi-Dravidas.

> "The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3000-4000 years before present
> therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is
> especialy counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low,
> frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and
> northern india.

This indicates an equal contribution of Semitic stock to the North
and the South.

> Thus, the `Caucasoid' features of south Asians (Indians) may
> best be considered `pre-caucasoid'

Once again, the bulk of Dravidoids are of Africoid stock, although in
certain regions Semitic genes predominate. That they choose to label this
Semitic stock as `proto-caucasoid' is slightly misleading.

Samar




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jan 10 11:57:42 2000
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 13:57:42 +0200
Subject: Teixeira
In-Reply-To: <20000105222949.22062.qmail@web1505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055111.23782.5495394014837388923.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Youri Martini asked:
>Who was Pedro Teixeira?

A Portuguese traveller who spent years in Asia, returned in 1601 and
published a travel account in 1610. Very little is known of him except what
he himself tells in his book. It was translated into English by W. F.
Sinclair and published by the Hakluyt Society in London in 1902.

Regards

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jan 10 18:57:47 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 13:57:47 -0500
Subject: Language name, people's name,              and place name (was Re: Vital Statistics)
Message-ID: <161227055136.23782.11903499072385707553.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/9/00 3:41:19 PM Central Standard Time,
abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN writes:

> > In the case of Tamil, the language name is primary and the place
>  > name and the people's name are derived names.
>
>  Can we be really sure, this seems more like, who came first chicken or the
> egg.

Yes, we can be sure. Dravidian linguistic principles make it very clear there
is no chicken and egg problem with respect to the language name Tamil.

This leads me to a general question. How common is the primacy of language
name vis-a-vis people's name or even place names in IA, IE, Munda, Semitic
traditions or across the globe?

I think at a time when movements of people result in diverse people coming
together, an identity based on language use may lead to easier assimilation
than race-oriented or geography-oriented labels? Has this been studied? In
that respect, I would like to know if there are other situations where other
groups came together in pre-historic periods using a language-based identity
such as the Tamil identity.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Jan 10 20:16:41 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 15:16:41 -0500
Subject: Samyuktaksaras (Was: Vital Statistics)
Message-ID: <161227055140.23782.6690677830963779057.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To the proponents of the Roman script for S. Asian languages I would
suggest  that the conjunct forms of the consonants, although they are
not totally regular and predictable and do take time to learn either
for a native speaker or for others, once learned make for economy both
in reading and in writing by hand, and therefore in the use of the
written language once learned save effort.  They have produced
problems in the design of typewriters, to be sure, but S. Asia seems
to be jumping from handwriting to computers largely skipping the
typewriter for local languages.  The conjunct consonant graphs save
the excessive use of virama/halant on the one hand and avoid the
endless writing of a graph for short a on the other.

Allen Thrasher




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Mon Jan 10 20:17:40 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 15:17:40 -0500
Subject: What part of India is Dravidian?
Message-ID: <161227055138.23782.6899039700419359643.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The notion of a tall fair aryan is unscintific and only found in indian
school books. We should remember that 100 yrs ago the dutch were the
shortest people of europe. They are now the tallest in the world. height is
a rather fluid parameter in most human populations except for pygmies who
are naturally short.

Its simlistic to say that dravidians are dark and that north indians are
dark because they have dravidian genes. Is there anything like a dravidian
race I thought it was a language group. Assuming that the original dravidian
speakers spread from west asia, they could easily have been lighter than the
resident indians.

One of the darkest persons I know is from sindh who has very aquiline
features. In  darkness he beats many african americans leave alone indians.
Speaking as a person who sometimes makes portraits, I see underlying
resemblences in facial features in all indians that are lowly correlated
with darkness of skin. One of them could be described as so called caucasian
type features There are also features we dont find in any populations
outside of India.

But one of the more remarkable resemblences we share with populations
outside of India is the one with native australians. It is less prominent
but quite pervasive. This is surprising since south-east asia is populated
by melanesians and mongoloid types today who show less traces of australoid
features.

Someone should do mtDNA studies of  aboriginal australians and Indians to
assess genetic distance.




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Mon Jan 10 14:24:06 2000
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 15:24:06 +0100
Subject: Fw:      Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055117.23782.7747467596589635634.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Wujastyk, list members,

The term AIT has passed a number of times in the headers of recent Indology
messages, so I guess I shouldn't feel inhibited from volunteering my two
cents' worth on the most consequential topic in current indology.  On Sun, 9
Jan 2000, Dr. Nupam Mahajan quoted genetic research:

> > "Assuming that they are largely of western-Eurasian origin, we may ask
> > when their spread started. We obtained divergence time of 9300 +/- 3000
> > years."

There is no doubt that some so-called Caucasians moved south in the distant
past, esp. during the Ice Age when northern regions were inhospitable.  But
for equating them with Proto-Indo-Europeans, 9300 BP is a bit early, isn't
it?  And equating them with the Vedic Indo-Aryans is simply out of the
question.

> > Their low frequency but still general spread
> > all over India plus the estimated time scale, does not support a recent
> > massive Indo-Aryan invasion, at least as far as maternally inherited
genetic
> > lineage are concerned.

Effectively.  What the quotations amount to, is that there is simply an
absence of genetic evidence for a post-Harappan Aryan invasion.  That
doesn't prove that such invasion never happened, but merely fails to prove
that it did happen.  Only, this isn't the first field where the evidence of
the epoch-making Aryan invasion fails to show up.  We are already faced with
the complete absence of literary evidence, and numerous archaeologists
(including invasionist Shereen Ratnagar) have asserted the complete absence
of archaeological evidence for such an Aryan invasion.  As for the
astronomical evidence, some explain it away as admitting of divergent
chronological interpretations (see EJVS's latest), others explain it as
decisive evidence against the invasion scenario, but no one has made a
credible case showing the astronomical evidence to *indicate* an invasion
scenario.  After wiping their archaeological and literary trail in one of
the greatest cover-ups in history, the Aryan invaders now turn out to have
obliterated their genetics traces as well.  It amazes me (well, having some
experience with this debate, I'm not *really* amazed) that in discussing
these genetic findings, list members continue to modulate the details of the
supposed Aryan invasion rather than considering the more obvious
explanation, viz. that there was no Aryan invasion.

True, there is a loophole: our knowledge of the subject is still in its
infancy, and there remain many unknowns. In particular, these findings are
based on the genetic material passed on in the female line, so nothing is
said about any data pertaining to the male line.  Quite expectedly, this
gets interpreted as if the geneticists had declared that there is no
evidence in the female line, but in the male line, there is.  Thus, Samar
Abbas writes:

> Naturally, the `Aryan' offspring of such unions would inherit the mt DNA
> which has been analysed, displaying Semitic [= West-Asian?] or Mulatto
ancestry. All
> maternal trace of such an `Aryan invasion' would of course have been wiped
> out. A fact confirmed by the two excellent papers cited by Dr N. Mahajan.

To the extent that we have seen them, the papers cited do not confirm the
existence of "such an 'Aryan invasion'".  They also leave open the
possibility that no genetic invasion in the male line will be found,  at
least not more than in the female line, making this 9300 BP migration a real
immigration of a whole community rather than an all-male raid.  At any rate,
all we have is a slim genetic inflow during the Glacial and immediately
post-Glacial south- and southeastward expansion of the so-called Caucasian
race, not a late- or post-Harappan invasion of the Vedic Aryans.

Of course, our poor geneticists labour under the assumption, assured to them
by the Indologists, that the Aryan invasion is a fact of history.  So, all
while denying any evidence for it, they pay a little reverence in the
direction of the established paradigm, using the understatement "did not
make a major splash", yet correctly classifying the Aryan invasion as merely
a supposition:

> > "The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3000-4000 years before present
> > therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is
> > especialy counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low,
> > frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and
> > northern india.

The limited genetic influx described by them affects almost the whole of the
Indian population, and is clearly distinct from any specifically Aryan
invasion.  Many authors (most lately Bernard Sergent) have written that the
Dravidian population (leave aside their language) is predominantly of
Mediterranean stock.  Their general view is confirmed by these findings: a
section of the white race from West Asia entered India in pre-Harappan times
(possibly bringing the Neolithic Revolution with them), filling up the whole
subcontinent, mixing with the natives of varying hues of brown and yellow.
Whether they also brought the Dravidian languages remains an open question;
it is perfectly possible that the newcomers adopted the language of the
natives.

Of course, this is not a definitive conclusion, as many genetic findings are
still awaited, but it is what an informed observer can deduce from the data
presented to us by Dr. Mahajan.

Dr. Koenraad Elst




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 11 00:07:42 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 16:07:42 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055145.23782.14503363909902011431.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:58:47 PST

"David Salmon (Kettenpom)" <dsalmon at SALMON.ORG> wrote:

>Even so, one wonders what the ratio of women to men were in those "Aryan"
>tribal excursions into India.  Were they like the Greek onslaught on Troy,

Vidya:That is precisely what the Aryan migrations into India were NOT,
according to contemporary scholars.
_____________

I think the confusion has arisen because Vidyasankar has understood the word
'migration' in the conventional sense. The Indologists rather have the
following definition of this 'migration':

"The immigrating group(s) may have been relatively small one(s), such as the
Normans who came to England in 1066 and who nearly turned England into a
French speaking country......the immigrating clans may have looked like
Bactrians, Afganis or Kashmiris, and must have been racially submerged
quickly in the population of the Punjab, just like the later immigrants
whose staging area was in Bactria as well: the Saka, Kusana, Huns etc.-
However, the introduction of the horse and especially of the horse drawn
chariot was a powerful weapon in the hands of the Indo-Aryans. It must have
helped to secure military and political dominance even if some of the local
elite were indeed quick to introduce the new cattle based economy and the
weapon, the horse drawn chariot,- just as the Near Eastern peoples did on a
much larger and planned scale."

Michael Witzel on pg. xxii of "F. B. J Kuiper: Selected Writings on
Linguistics and Philology; Ed. by Michael Witzel et al; 1997"

Of course, one is free to take the above description of a migration as a
euphemism of the now out of fashion 'invasionist' theories.
Apparently the Dravidian (or Munda) speakers of north India were over awed
when they say the chariots of fair skinned Indo Aryans hurtle down the
mountain ranges, and they must have welcomed these immigrants as their new
leaders. Another case of the 'white man's burden'?




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 11 00:13:29 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 16:13:29 -0800
Subject: KauTalya
Message-ID: <161227055146.23782.13730417085247886169.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

What do we know about KauTalya? Does his name come from
"kUTal", the ancient name for Madurai? KauTalya talks of
Madurai in his book and also the different pearls harvested
at the Cape Comorin and the place where tAmraparNI (taNporunai -
its old name). What are Hemacandra's words along with damila
for KauTalya?

Is there any book/paper where K.'s discussion of things South
Indian and his name, etc., are analyzed?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 11 00:36:53 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 16:36:53 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055149.23782.15315587458053887602.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From: "N. Ganesan" <naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM>
NG: Adisankara calls his brahmasUtra bhASyam as "sArIraka mImAmsa".
VA: The appellation "Shariraka Mimamsa' is pre-Samkara. Bhagvatpada himself
quotes Vrttikara Upavarsha: "....Sarirake vakshayamah.". Sri Ramanuja too
quotes Vrttikara Bodhayana twice: "Samhitametatchharirakam". Even Bharuchi,
a pre-Samkara commentator on Manu says: "The knowers of Atman call it
Sarira". So nothing new about the name "Shariraka Mimamsa".

NG:Take the case of Ramanujar, his bronzes exist from his lifetime
in the Chola times.
VA: Yatindra Ramanujacharya came to preside over a longstanding Sri
Vaishnava community headquartered at the massive Sri Rangam complex in his
lieftime, and was therefore influential long before he breathed his lost. In
contrast, Bhagvatpada was a Paramahamsa, and is said to have established the
4 monastaries close to his demise. He did not preside over a community or an
institution in his lifetime that would have raised plaques and statues for
him. Therefore, the two case cannot be compared. Nakamura has infact shown
that the Vedanta of Bhaskara was more noticed or influential in the few
centuries after Bhagvatpada. This might explain the lack of contemporary
inscriptions from Sri Shankaracharya's time.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Jan 10 22:00:23 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 17:00:23 -0500
Subject: origins of Pali
Message-ID: <161227055143.23782.10762657998597907091.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Prof. Witzel, Substrates in OIA, EJVS, 1999 is quoted as saying:
>
>>But it has a form closer to meluHHa in Middle Indian (MIA): Pali, the
>>church language of S. Buddhism which originated as a western N. Indian
>>dialect (roughly, between Mathura, Gujarat and the Vindhya) has
>>milakkha, milakkhu.
>
>The view that Pali is a western dialect is largely dependent upon the
>Girnar version of the edicts of the Emperor Asoka. But there is much
>evidence to show that the similarities are due to the scribe at
>Girnar i.e. he has in effect Sanskritized (or put in a more 'learned'
>form) his exemplar. This naturally produces similarities with Pali,
>itself a Sanskritized form of Middle Indian.
>

This takes a very narrow view of a much larger complex of data. The view
that Pali represents an (increasingly Sanskritized) eastern dialect is a
not dependent on Girnar alone but on a broad range of phonetical features,
grammatical forms, and on the clear substitution of more western forms for
eastern ones (often retained in verses, well known since Lueders,
Urkanon: thus closer to the Koine the Buddha used in the greater
Bihar area). Unless all these data  can be explained away, no eastern
(Greater Magadha) origin of the Pali Koine.

(see: H. Luders, Beobachtungen uber die Sprache des buddhistischen
Urkanons; aus
dem Nachlass hrsg. von Ernst Waldschmidt.  Berlin, Akademie-Verlag, 1954. )


>K.R.Norman has discussed this point in various papers. It seems more
>likely that Pali originates somewhere further east i.e. in the area
>of larger Maagadha, rather than in the narrower area where the
>Maagadhii dialect (as later defined by grammarians) was spoken.

This view is, to say the least, debatable. See above. For summaries, see O.
v. Hinuber (Oskar von Hin?ber),  Das aeltere Mittelindisch im Ueberblick.
Wien: Verlag der Oesterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften 1986;
and:cf. his: A Handbook of Pali Literature (Indian Philology and South
Asian Studies (IPSAS), vol. 2, Berlin/New York (W. de Gruyter), [July] 1996
pp. xiii + 257 (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/pali.htm).


MW.




From kekai at JPS.NET  Tue Jan 11 01:01:40 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 17:01:40 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055098.23782.10570306937905935134.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"David Salmon (Kettenpom)" wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
> To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
>
> > To classify the human populations of Asia 50,000 years ago as
> > "pre-caucasoid" is poor analysis and linked with earlier Eurocentric
> > racial mythology.
> >
> > In fact, given recent evidence that the out of Africa migration of
> > modern humans began during this period, the people could be more
> > accurately described as proto-Africoid. In phenotype, their remains were
> > closest to modern Papuans, Fijians or Australian Aborigines only
> > shorter.
> >
> > Since, it is likely that all the non-African "racial" groups originated
> > from this exodus, one cannot classify this deme simply as
> > "proto-caucasoid" or "proto-mongoloid" or whatever.
> >
>
> "Likely"?  What do the DNA or mitochondrial surveys say?
>

Likely.

> > Also, the linguistic and archaeological evidence does *not* support a
> > West Asian origin for Dravidian.  SUsing the standard techniques of
> > greatest diversity and least moves, the point of origin of this language
> > family would be squarely in South Asia.
> >
>
> The languages of 50,000 years ago are so far removed from the languages of
> the last 10,000 years or so as to be almost beyond study.  The relevance of
> population and language movements of 50,000 years ago to the question of the
> origin of Dravidian would seem to be nil, as you might agree?
>

No, not necessarily. Although the methods I described are specified at
any time period. The greatest diverity of Dravidian languages and the
central point of their distribution is in South Asia.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From kekai at JPS.NET  Tue Jan 11 01:12:19 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 17:12:19 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055100.23782.16180182853246326744.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"David Salmon (Kettenpom)" wrote:


> > The earliest modern "Australoid" phenotypes occur in Sumatra not in the > "Mediterranean." And the authors fail to note that the mtDNA strains of > the vast majority of Indians tested are significantly closer to East> Asians than to Europeans or "Middle Easterners" that were tested.
> >
>
> I think the point of the authors probably had more to do with -disproving-> any large maternal DNA contribution to the South Asian populations than with> trying to -prove- anything about modern and more recent (a few thousand> years or so) changes.
>

Well, they do disclaim any recent major maternal contribution from
outside India. By "major" I mean on a widespead demographic basis.

> Even so, one wonders what the ratio of women to men were in those "Aryan" > tribal excursions into India.  Were they like the Greek onslaught on Troy,> composed almost solely of men?  Or if not, how many men originally does the> DNA imply in total, if one assumes that most of them arrived in the> centuries in which the "Aryans" came, however they did it?  I don't believe > that data can say a thing about that.
>

Well, the paternal Y chromosome data is not much different from maternal
mtDNA. Hammer grouped modern Indians in a South/Southeast Asia cluster.

The major European Y chromosome haplotype is very rare or absent in
India, but a North African/Middle Eastern variety is found in small
numbers.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Jan 11 02:16:19 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 19:16:19 -0700
Subject: KauTalya
In-Reply-To: <20000111001329.34389.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055153.23782.17924786961574352380.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I will have to dig out the shloka by Hemachandracharya.

The Arthashastra available today is likely not the one composed by Kautalya,
but another text composed later based on Kautalya's.
It is speculated that the author of available Arthashastra and
Kamasura might be the same person.

The Jain tradition about Kautalya is given in Hemchandracharya's
Parishistaparvan, which has recently been published as The Lives of the Jain
Elders (Oxford World's Classics) by  R. C. C. Fynes,
Trans.

In Avashyakachurni, Chanakya is said to have been born in the Golla country,
which some scholars have placed in somewhere
in South, perhaps in Godavari region. About his final days we are
sure that spent in Magadh. If he did study at Takshshila as some
sources suggest, then he had covered the three corners of India,
which is interesting to note.

In Jain tradition, both Chandragupta Maurya and Chanakya are
said to have become monks in the later part of their lives.

Yashwant

-----Original Message-----
What do we know about KauTalya? Does his name come from
"kUTal", the ancient name for Madurai? KauTalya talks of
Madurai in his book and also the different pearls harvested
at the Cape Comorin and the place where tAmraparNI (taNporunai -
its old name). What are Hemacandra's words along with damila
for KauTalya?

Is there any book/paper where K.'s discussion of things South
Indian and his name, etc., are analyzed?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan
______________________________________________________




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Tue Jan 11 01:20:49 2000
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 20:20:49 -0500
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055151.23782.8770949445355165165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> 1. Forget the Cambodian inscription, and the Sankaravijaya silence
about a
> Khmer student. All the hagiographies are late texts, and can be
safely set
> aside for purposes of chronology. They do carry other kinds of
useful
> historical information regarding the development of the Advaita
Vedanta
> tradition, but not for deciding Sankara's date.

The teacher shivasoman is never described as a Cambodian, but as the
guru of an Indian king who settled in Cambodia. That aside, I don't
even see the point of this whole exercise. Currently sha.nkara is
supposed to have died at 820CE (majority opinion). Is the memory of
people so bad that he can't be credited with a "wave of mAyAvAda" in
some text supposedly written about 50 years later? This is assuming
that the text refers to sha.nkara in the first place.

In any case,  I frankly doubt if the Tamil text refers to sha.nkara.
If it did, it would be the *first* non-orthodox school to refer to
sha.nkara! Nakamura has shown all the non-othodox schools like Jains
and Buddhists who came **after** sha.nkara refer to either Bhaskara or
only Mandana Mishra. Kashmir Shaivites,  also refer to only Mandana
Mishra. In the nyAyA and vaisheshhika texts also there seems to be no
mention of sha.nkara. So there is no prima facie reason to even
hypothesize that some Tamil text refers to sha.nkara, unless there is
some significant evidence. It could well be other advaitins.
Especially, given the fact that Nakamura cites some reasonably
compelling evidence to push sha.nkaras date to around 700CE.

Rama




From HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE  Mon Jan 10 20:51:05 2000
From: HWW-GR at T-ONLINE.DE (Heinz Werner Wessler)
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 00 21:51:05 +0100
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055141.23782.11054883233358317337.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>          Even the mordern arabic numerals used through out the world
> resemble and originate from indian numerals.
>
>
> regards
>
> Rajarshi

...that is why the text of the Constitution of Indian prescribes in its
paragraph 343 (1) not only Hindi as the "official language of the Union", but
also: "The form of numerals to be used for the official purposis of the Union
shall be the international form of Indian numerals." I.e., Arabic numerals.

HWW

PS to "vital statistics": Which means, the globalization of Arabic numerals does
not demonstrate the semitization of world culture.

Dr. Heinz Werner Wessler
Bergstr.27A
D-53844 Troisdorf
Fon/Fax +49-228-455125




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 11 14:32:31 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 06:32:31 -0800
Subject: zArIra mImAmsa
Message-ID: <161227055163.23782.2900835027405039385.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Does the term, "zArIra(ka) mImAmsa" occur in BhagavatpAda Sankara's
brahmasUtrabhAsyam or not?

Thanks,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Tue Jan 11 06:39:51 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 06:39:51 +0000
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
In-Reply-To: <387B6D7C.F38612E3@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055157.23782.10067999611274503868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Paul Kekai Manansala:" With regard to mtDNA, Indians show greatest
> similarity to East Asian populations and also Ethiopians."

 Dr. Manansala's excellent tables throw up some interesting questions.
It seems East Asians are genetically quite close to Africans with
regard to mtDNA. So a Mongoloid contribution and an Africoid contribution
to Indian mtDNA would be indistinguishable. Any way of resolving a
possible Africoid contribution from a Mongoloid one in India ? Has any
work been done on this ?

Moreover, what to make of the following table ?

> Frequency of Ddel(10,394)Alul(10,397)Haplotypes in Punjab
>                      ++         +-         --
>              no.     (%)        (%)        (%)
>  _________________________________________________________
> Caucasoids        383     1.0        21.4        77.6
> Punjabi            78     26.9       12.8        60.2
> Tribals (A.P.)     30     60.0        0          40.0
> East Asians       153     44.4        7.2        48.4
> Sub-Sah. African  197      1.5       88.7         9.6

 This shows a negligible Caucasoid contribution, even to Punjabi
populations. It has been suggested that this and Dr.N.Mahajan's citations
negate an "Aryan invasion"; before `OIT' advocates celebrate they should
realise that these papers negate any major Indo-Caucasoid presence itself.
Simply put, the papers indicate that there are genetically speaking no
`Indo-Aryans' in India. So, bad news for both AIT as well as OIT. Of
course, this is just part of the data.

> A newer publication deals with mtDNA haplotype M, which was formerly
> thought of as Asian origin, but which now may be connected with the
> first migration out of Ethiopia, and strangely enough into India!

 This seems to imply that the first Africoid migration into India occurred
not from Sudan (as suggested by Sergent) but from Ethiopia (presumably via
the Yemen). Or did Ethiopians (presumably `Hamites') inhabit the Sudan
prior to the advent of Sudanics ?

> Regarding Y chromosomes, global studies have placed South Asians in a
> cluster with Southeast Asians.

This Southeast Asiatic contribution may come from `Naga'+`Kirata'
immigrations which are attested in ancient texts. Strange also, that they
left little mark in linguistic terms - even East India is IA. Has this
contribution been overlooked, or has the research been neglected ?

> There are African YAP+ haplotypes in India, but many Indian haplotypes
> appear to be of Indian origin.

  On what timescale could such haplotypes arise ? What would be the
probability of them arising independantly ? Also, is there any reason for
the East Asian-African mtDNA similarity ? C.A.Winters postulated an
Africoid substratum in East Asia, an idea widely dismissed when he first
proposed it on linguistic grounds. Would this research support his thesis
? Or did these genes evolve independantly in East Asia ?

Samar




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 11 17:25:46 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 09:25:46 -0800
Subject: kUTam
Message-ID: <161227055164.23782.17618379644333515631.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Witzel, Substrates in OIA, EJVS, 1999
>#  kUTa 10.102.4 'hammer' DEDR 1651, 1655, 1883, app. 29; previously
>explained by Burrow as Drav., later explained by him as IE (German
>hau-en), but see EWA I 384 'unclear'.

"kUTam" is a well-known tamil word for hammer, blacksmith's sledge,
etc., It occurs in literature from Sangam texts onwards all the time.
An example from perumpANARRuppaTai, (one of 10 long poems in CT):

  "karuGkaik kollan2 irumpu vicaittu eRinta
   kUTattu in2n2icai verIi"  (lines 437-8)

"kUTam" is formed from the verb, "kuTTu" ('to beat, strike, pound').
There is a lengthy paper by (E. European) author on "kuTTa-muka"
(powder-faced). I think it is in the L. Sternbach fel. volume,
part I, Lucknow. In that reference, kUTam, kuTTa-mukha etc.,
in Buddhist texts are analyzed as Dravidian. Does anyone know
that citation?

Regards,
N. Ganesan




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From dsalmon at SALMON.ORG  Tue Jan 11 17:42:03 2000
From: dsalmon at SALMON.ORG (David Salmon (Kettenpom))
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 09:42:03 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055167.23782.14852667861108992695.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence



> > Simply put, the papers indicate that there are genetically speaking no
> > `Indo-Aryans' in India.

Which does not mean that there weren't some in the past.  In fact, the
similarities imply a small contribution to the South Asian blood stream from
Caucasian types, just not enough to be of much significance.

>>  So, bad news for both AIT as well as OIT. Of
> > course, this is just part of the data.
> >
>
> Yes, just from the maternal side.
>
>

So-- how did the IA languages develop in South Asia/Central Asia/Europe
without any population transfer of significance between them?

Put another way, since the transfer -did- occur, the question is,
extrapolating from these data, what is the maximum number of
"Indo-Aryan"/Caucasian people entering into the South Asian bloodstream
which would account for the figures shown, at various alternative dates?

That number would tell you how many people it took to bring about the IA
language changes.  If it is a small number and relatively recent (a few
thousands of years), then it would seem unlikely, from a social mechanics
point of view, that so vast a group of changes could have come about through
peaceful integration of nomadic herders and farmers.  Something more
violently upsetting to the power and cultural framework would be required.
The IAs, despite their small numbers, had a transforming influence on South
Asian culture and languages.  A collision of cultures, perhaps?

David




From kekai at JPS.NET  Tue Jan 11 17:50:53 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 09:50:53 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055128.23782.5196748050158482814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>
 For that,> you will have to study something inherited solely from the
father. However,> if you know biology, you will find there is no such
thing. During production> of haploid reproductive cells, there is a
phenomenon called cross-over,> where portions of DNA from complementary
chromosomes are mixed up, in order> to ensure greater genetic diversity.
In other words, the Y chromosome sperm> produced by a man is not
identical to the Y chromosome sperm that produced
> him. It carries genetic material inherited from both his father and his
> mother.

Recombination is very rare with the Y chromosome as compared to nuclear
DNA, which was the basis of earlier studies. This has been proven in
extensive clinical tests and is one reason that it is considered a
fairly reliable marker of paternal descent.

You are right on mtDNA, but a recent article in Science suggests there
is at least some male effect on mtDNA.  I'll try to dig up the citation.

With regard to mtDNA, Indians show greatest similarity to East Asian
populations and also Ethiopians. This is shown in the tables below:

Genetic Distances between Continental Populations
Group                African       Indian      Asian
 _______________________________________________________________
African
Indian               0.00440
Asian                0.00584       0.00085
European             0.658         0.00115      0.00046
_______________________________________________________________
(Bamshad et al, (1996) "mtDNA
Variation in Caste Populations," Human Biology, v. 68, 1,)



---------------------------------------------------------
Frequency of Ddel(10,394)Alul(10,397)Haplotypes in Punjab
----------------------------------------------------------
                              Haplotypes
                    ------------------------------
                     ++         +-         --
             no.     (%)        (%)        (%)
 _________________________________________________________
Caucasoids        383     1.0        21.4        77.6
Punjabi            78     26.9       12.8        60.2
Indians (Delhi)    76     48.7        2.6        48.7
Indians (A.P.)     57     73.7        1.7        24.6
Tribals (A.P.)     30     60.0        0          40.0
East Asians       153     44.4        7.2        48.4
Siberians         412     56.3       10.0        33.7
Tibetans           54     61.1        0          38.9
Sub-Sah. African  197      1.5       88.7         9.6
-----------------------------------------------------------
Source: Passarino et al., "mtDNA Polymorphisms in Northern
India,"  _American Journal of Human Genetics_, 59:927-934, Oct. 1996.

There is also a study showing similar results by Mountain et
al.(Mountain et al.,(1995) "Demographic History of India and
mtDNA-Sequence Diversity,"  American journal of human genetics,
APR 01 1995 v 56 n 4, p. 979).

A newer publication deals with mtDNA haplotype M, which was formerly
thought of as Asian origin, but which now may be connected with the
first migration out of Ethiopia, and strangely enough into India!

Quintana-Murci L, et al.
Genetic evidence of an early exit of Homo sapiens sapiens from Africa
through eastern Africa. Nat Genet. 1999 Dec;23(4):437-41.

Regarding Y chromosomes, global studies have placed South Asians in a
cluster with Southeast Asians.

The proto-European p49/TaqI haplotype 15 is not an important type in
India according to studies I have seen. There are African YAP+
haplotypes in India, but many Indian haplotypes appear to be of Indian
origin.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Tue Jan 11 10:29:48 2000
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 10:29:48 +0000
Subject: origins of Pali
In-Reply-To: <v04003a00b49fbf66d0ae@[140.247.100.175]>
Message-ID: <161227055160.23782.6333437779006582674.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Professor Witzel writes:


(I wrote:)

<excerpt>>The view that Pali is a western dialect is largely dependent
upon the

>Girnar version of the edicts of the Emperor Asoka. But there is much

>evidence to show that the similarities are due to the scribe at

>Girnar i.e. he has in effect Sanskritized (or put in a more 'learned'

>form) his exemplar. This naturally produces similarities with Pali,

>itself a Sanskritized form of Middle Indian.

>

</excerpt>

(Witzel:)


<excerpt>This takes a very narrow view of a much larger complex of
data. The view

that Pali represents an (increasingly Sanskritized) eastern dialect 

</excerpt>

I presume you meant 'western' here.


<excerpt>is a

not dependent on Girnar alone but on a broad range of phonetical
features,

grammatical forms, and on the clear substitution of more western forms
for

eastern ones (often retained in verses, well known since Lueders,

Urkanon: thus closer to the Koine the Buddha used in the greater

Bihar area). Unless all these data  can be explained away, no eastern

(Greater Magadha) origin of the Pali Koine.


</excerpt>

This depends upon the degree of dialect variation further east. In
fact, it is clear that Pali contains material with origins in various
dialects. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether

a specific geographical link can be shown for the third or second
centuries B.C. If Girnar is discounted (as it must be), then there is
very little evidence as to precisely what the dialects were on the
ground in the third century B.C.


So it is no use claiming a 'broad range of phonetical features', etc.
What precise evidence do you have which locates specific features and
forms with specific geographical areas in this period?

<excerpt>

>K.R.Norman has discussed this point in various papers. It seems more

>likely that Pali originates somewhere further east i.e. in the area

>of larger Maagadha, rather than in the narrower area where the

>Maagadhii dialect (as later defined by grammarians) was spoken.


This view is, to say the least, debatable.

</excerpt>

Debatable, yes. But there is no justification for the 'to say the
least'.


<excerpt>See above. For summaries, see O.

v. Hinuber (Oskar von Hin?ber),  Das aeltere Mittelindisch im
Ueberblick.

Wien: Verlag der Oesterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften 1986;

and:cf. his: A Handbook of Pali Literature (Indian Philology and South

Asian Studies (IPSAS), vol. 2, Berlin/New York (W. de Gruyter), [July]
1996

pp. xiii + 257 (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/pali.htm).

</excerpt>

The latter states: 'The evidence, on which these conclusions are based,
are (sic) the inscriptions of A'soka (3rd century BC), which allow us
to draw a very rough linguistic map of northern India'. So OvH does
indeed give primacy to the inscriptions of Asoka. In the present
context that means the inscriptions at Girnar (and the fragments from
Sopara), as these are the only western examples.


He also gives a footnote reference to his Ueberblick, but I have so far
been unable to buy a copy of that. (It went out of print rather quickly
!) I will check the reference in the library later on today. But I do
not doubt that he takes a rather conservative view on this issue.


Possibly one of the most recent discussions by K.R. Norman is:

"The A'sokan Inscriptions and Prakrit Dialect Geography" in
N.N.Bhattacharyya, _Jainism and Prakrit in Ancient and Mediaeval India:
Essays for Prof. Jagdish Chandra Jain_, Delhi, Manohar, 1994, pp.
51-57.


As far as I know, Roy Norman is not a subscriber to Indology; so let me
cite from p. 55 (in the concluding paragraph):

"If we can disregard the evidence of the A'sokan inscriptions and
assume that the situation in the second century B.C. reflects the
pattern of dialect distribution of the third century, then it would be
open to us to conclude that the dialect upon which Pali is based had
its home much nearer Magadha. As I have recently pointed out, when the
Maagadhisms and Sanskritisms in Pali have been disregarded, there is,
in fact, very little difference between the language of the Theravaadin
canon and the language of the Haathigumphaa inscription."


(The reference is to <fontfamily><param>Geneva</param><smaller>Norman,
K.R., "The Languages of early Buddhism," in
</smaller></fontfamily><smaller><fontfamily><param>MyTymes</param>Premier
Colloque ?tienne Lamotte</fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Geneva</param>,
pp. 83-99, 1993.)


</fontfamily></smaller>Earlier in the paper examples are given of
various cases (some of them new) in which A'sokan inscriptions are in a
dialect which cannot have been that locally current. The most striking
example remains Sopara (near to Girnar) which consistently changes l to
r, even when this is historically inappropriate. It is very difficult
to believe that the local dialect actually had phara (for phala) or
ma.mgara (for ma.mgala).


Lance Cousins  

OXFORD, UK


CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:

L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: text/enriched
Size: 5011 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000111/b6a8566f/attachment.bin>

From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 11 20:13:01 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 12:13:01 -0800
Subject: Samyuktaksaras (Was: Vital Statistics)
Message-ID: <161227055175.23782.16377254674965950125.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

--- Rajarshi Banerjee <rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM> wrote:
> I always wonder about type-writers for hindi, how did they manage, they
> must have  existed. I dont recall ever seeing one.
>

When did the hindi typewriters arrive? Having no conjunct consonant
letters, tamil typing came early. But when?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From jai at FLEX.COM  Tue Jan 11 23:09:54 2000
From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 13:09:54 -1000
Subject: Hindi Typewriters (RE: Samyuktaksaras (Was: Vital Statistics))
Message-ID: <161227055184.23782.14242241374630463097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"Yashwant Malaiya" <malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU> wrote
 on Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:29 AM
> I've also wondered about when Hindi typewriters arrived on the scene. . . .

Namaste, the oldest Devanagari typewriter stored
in my house was manufactured in 1935.  It was
acquired in Dillee from a civil engineer who had
purchased a couple of them in Moradabad.

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Jan 11 20:29:22 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 13:29:22 -0700
Subject: Hindi Typewriters (RE: Samyuktaksaras (Was: Vital Statistics))
In-Reply-To: <20000111201301.16067.qmail@web304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055177.23782.9686249102622553411.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've also wondered about when Hindi typewriters arrived on the scene.

They were there in 60's. They were quite common, although more expensive
than English ones. They must still be common.

With computer aided typing/typesetting, conjuncts are no longer a
major problem. Many of the Devanagri fonts include samyuktaksharas that
were rare in mechanically typeset text. The software often
automatically identifies the appropriate  samyuktakshara.

Hindi typewriters were already there in 1963 or so, as I remember.

Yashwant

Rajarshi Banerjee  wrote:
> I always wonder about type-writers for hindi, how did they manage, they
> must have  existed. I dont recall ever seeing one.

Swaminathan Madhuresan
>When did the hindi typewriters arrive? Having no conjunct consonant
>letters, tamil typing came early. But when?




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 11 22:50:09 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 14:50:09 -0800
Subject: mitochondria and Indology (was Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence)
Message-ID: <161227055183.23782.6844025893390336845.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET> wrote:

>_mtDNA Shows Signs of Paternal Influence_
>        Evelyn Strauss
>        Science 1999 December 24; 286: 2436a
>

Thanks for the reference. Previously, to my knowledge, biparental
inheritance of mtDNA had been seen in some bacteria, angiosperms and a
mollusc species. This recent discovery of paternal influence in hominid
species mtDNA will have far-reaching consequences for anthropological
conclusions based on genetic studies. Shows how science constantly forces
one to challenge long-held assumptions.

Vidyasankar

ps. It would be better not to use such terms as "bloodlines" with respect to
genetic evidence. They are extremely fuzzy, or worse still, meaningless in
the context.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Jan 11 20:01:56 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 15:01:56 -0500
Subject: Samyuktaksaras (Was: Vital Statistics)
Message-ID: <161227055173.23782.5441806748677402220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

AT>To the proponents of the Roman script for S. Asian languages I would
suggest  that the conjunct forms of the consonants, although they are
not totally regular and predictable and do take time to learn either
for a native speaker or for others, once learned make for economy both
in reading and in writing by hand, and therefore in the use of the
written language once learned save effort.

RB> I agree, conjunct consonants are not that bad in fact I would go further
to point out that they are not a burden to learn at all. they are pretty
obvious and intuitive in the first place and for the few which are not
predictable its like learning a few short hand rules.

AT>problems in the design of typewriters, to be sure, but S. Asia seems
to be jumping from handwriting to computers largely skipping the
typewriter for local languages.  The conjunct consonant graphs save
the excessive use of virama/halant on the one hand and avoid the
endless writing of a graph for short a on the other.

RB> I always wonder about type-writers for hindi, how did they manage, they
must have  existed. I dont recall ever seeing one.




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Jan 11 22:01:15 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 17:01:15 -0500
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055179.23782.757547155959740207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

So-- how did the IA languages develop in South Asia/Central Asia/Europe
without any population transfer of significance between them?

Put another way, since the transfer -did- occur, the question is,
extrapolating from these data, what is the maximum number of
"Indo-Aryan"/Caucasian people entering into the South Asian bloodstream
which would account for the figures shown, at various alternative dates?

That number would tell you how many people it took to bring about the IA
language changes.  If it is a small number and relatively recent (a few
thousands of years), then it would seem unlikely, from a social mechanics
point of view, that so vast a group of changes could have come about through
peaceful integration of nomadic herders and farmers. Something more
violently upsetting to the power and cultural framework would be required.

The IAs, despite their small numbers, had a transforming influence on South
Asian culture and languages.  A collision of cultures, perhaps?

*****************

RB> Atleast Large scale genocide without gunpowder and technology is ruled
out by genetics and by common sense.
Maybe the IA speakers had armies of teachers who were hell bent on teaching
the language they spoke to a population which was equally keen to forget
other languages. The class rooms would have student to teacher ratios of a
million to one. I may be exagerating but unfortunately these are the only
kinds of scenarios consistant with the old perspective.

In contrast if we can think of India being multilingual with a small IE
component since the earliest times. Then the language which pevailed would
be that of the group which could matain a sustained population explosion
with the help of agriculture. IA would then evolve from IE under the
influence of other language groups and become the language of the majority.
Other language groups would also be influenced by the IA language due to
sheer size and inertia. Dravidian languages could have spread by a similar
mechanism at a later time into the southern regions of the IVC but would
have less influence in the north with its established linguistic inertia and
also being farther from the center of spread. By the same token IA would
have less influence in the south.

I dont know if the IVC seals indicate whether the society was multilingual
or not.

The horse obsession of vedic society could be explained as signs of the
times when some of the vedas were finalized and it does not rule an earlier
IA presence in India or earlier components of the vedas and other non horse
centric IA speakers.




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 12 03:26:49 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 19:26:49 -0800
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055186.23782.12280322899882797528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Samar Abbas <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>
Firstly, Ashoka was a Nastik Buddhist. Whether Nastik Aurangzeb, Nastik
VA: The Astika or Nastika character of 'Devanamapriya' Ashoka is irrelevant
here. From the Islamic perspective rather, he is certainly a Kafir.
_________________
SA:Secondly, this statement (that Asokan empire was larger than Aurangzeb's)
is wrong, but I shall not belabour the point.
Interested readers may consult the numerous court chronicles to read for
themselves how Aurangzeb conquered Assam, Tibet, Afghanistan and Tamil Nadu.
VA: You seem to have read chronicles which even Jadunath Sarkar and other
scholars on Alamgir Aurangaeb Padshah Ghazi (Ghazi = killer of Kafirs) have
missed. Please post some references for our benefit. As far as I know, only
the army of Muhammad bin Tughlaq invaded Tibet and it perished in the
Himalayas. Maybe Aurangzeb provided his army special 'Down Jackets' from the
Burlingtom coat factory in the USA. On Tamil Nadu, I request Dr. Ganesan and
Dr. Palaniappan to clarify to your satisfaction. On Assam, the Mughal army
never procededed beyond the lowest parts of Assam. Even to this day, there
is a memorial marking the site of the victory of the Assamese Army over
Aurangzeb's army. So which court chronicle are your referring? Similarly,
you are wrong on Afghanistan.
__________________
SA:Parts of Aurangzeb's empire were over-run with bandits, but these
were temporary phases.
VA: Who were these bandits? Chhatrapati Shivaji? Durgadas Rathore? Satnamis
of Mathura who revolted against the destruction of the Krishna-Janmabhoomi
temple? Guru Tegh Bahadur who laid down his life to fight persecution of
Kashmir Hindus by Aurangzeb? Guru Gobind Singhji who lost his sons in his
fight against Aurangzeb, and whose mother died of shock when the Sahabzadas
chose death to Islam? It is rather Aurangzeb who regarded himself as a
Hijazi and not an Indian because he considered India a Darul Harb (a country
of Kafirs at war with Islam) and was therefore a bandit.
________________________
SA: From the unbiased view of territorial extent, Aurangzeb's empire was
larger than Akbar's - even you have stated that the Deccan was included in
Aurangzeb's kingdom, but this was outside Akbar's power. From this fact
alone, Aurangzeb was greater than Akbar.
VA: Are you trying to say that rulers of smaller kingdoms like Khalipha Abu
Bakr and Paigambar Muhammad were inferior to Aurangzeb? Or were the
followers of 'destructive polytheism' like Alexander and Augustus Caeser
greater than Momin Aurangzeb becuase they had beigger empires? Of course,
with regard to Alexander, you can seek refuge in Koranic Ayats according to
which Alexander had two horns on his head and was a Muslim in reality.
_______________

SA:Aurangzeb took a strong stand against disruptive separatist elements,
which was naturally disliked by those fomenting the rebellions in the first
place.
VA: Were these rebellions fomented by his father Emperor Shah Jehan, whom he
imprisoned till death. Or his younger brother Murad, whom he got drugged and
then killed? Or his elder brother Dara Shikoh, whom he accused of apostasy
from Islam and then got him killed according to Islamic law; or his other
elder brother Shuja whom he drove to Arakans (where he died an unnatural
death).
________________
SA:Of course, Baniya Vaishyas are not happy at the prospect of Brahmanic
Sanskrit replacing their beloved Khari Boli. Fortunately, there are many
Brahmins who will agree that Sanskrit needs some piece of the cake going to
Khari Boli.
VA: Just to let you know, my mother speaks Punjabi and was born at Amritsar
a furlong from Sri Harimandir Sahib. All this should not matter to you
anyways because al-Llah speaks only Arabic according to Koran. All the other
languages therefore are irrelevant according to Islamic wisdom.


SA:Seems you are the only one on this list to disagree with
me. I shall not post any more on this thread due to lack of time.
VA: And do you realize that because of a few Muslims like you, crores of
Indian Muslims get a bad name. If not for the sake of India, for their sake
at least, please stop promoting Dalitstan and so on.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jan 12 06:18:39 2000
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 22:18:39 -0800
Subject: "stillness
Message-ID: <161227055193.23782.7452194215718917920.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan 12 06:22:17 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 22:22:17 -0800
Subject: mitochondria and Indology (was Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence)
Message-ID: <161227055155.23782.6145104168452987764.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/10/00 12:59:33 AM Central Standard Time,
> vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes:
>
> > Mitochondrial DNA is inherited solely from the mother, as they are found
> >  only in ova, and not in sperm.
>
> I heard in a recent TV news that researchers have revised this conclusion.> There is also some contribution from the father. I am not able to recollect> the source. The broadcast said that conclusions regarding human evolution> (re. Lucy, etc.) and dispersal have to be revised.  Does anybody have the> reference on that?


_mtDNA Shows Signs of Paternal Influence_
       Evelyn Strauss
       Science 1999 December 24; 286: 2436a

Even if this pans out it appears that mtDNA will still be the most
reliable genetic marker available, since paternal influence is *very*
rare.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jan 12 06:24:52 2000
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 22:24:52 -0800
Subject: "stillness" in the Yogasutra-s of Patanjali
Message-ID: <161227055195.23782.10502825727792321909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear members,

Looking for words, like sthiti, in the Yogasutra-s of
Patanjali that convey the simultaneous stillness of
mind and body.

any thoughts?

Thank you
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET  Tue Jan 11 22:01:39 2000
From: D.Plukker at INTER.NL.NET (Dick Plukker)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 23:01:39 +0100
Subject: Hindi Typewriters (RE: Samyuktaksaras (Was: Vital Statistics))
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIIPKOKJJJCMPMOJBIEBKCGAA.malaiya@cs.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055181.23782.11940258326851069660.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 13:29 11-1-2000 -0700, you wrote:
>I've also wondered about when Hindi typewriters arrived on the scene.
>
>They were there in 60's. They were quite common, although more expensive
>than English ones. They must still be common.
>
>>...
>Hindi typewriters were already there in 1963 or so, as I remember.
>
>Yashwant
>
>Rajarshi Banerjee  wrote:
>> I always wonder about type-writers for hindi, how did they manage, they
>> must have  existed. I dont recall ever seeing one.
>
>Swaminathan Madhuresan
>>When did the hindi typewriters arrive? Having no conjunct consonant
>>letters, tamil typing came early. But when?
>
According to  Bapurao S. Naik, Typography of Devanagari, Bombay 1971, vol.
2, pp. 636-9 "Remington ... soon started supplying typewriters with Indian
scripts. ... The most useful Devanagari typewriter was made in Germany,
which was designed by V.M. Atre, under the name Nagari Lekhan Yantra."

It is not very clear what Naik's "soon" means, but judging from the context
the first Nagari typewriter probably appeared on the market between 1930
and 1950. And soon the discussion on " ...the need of a Standard Devanagari
keyboard ..." started. Problems discussed then (such as under which key to
put which character, how to deal with conjuncts) seem not to have changed
very much ever since (just think of the many different Nagari computer
fonts and keyboard lay-outs.)


Dick Plukker

India Instituut,
Amsterdam




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jan 12 04:21:39 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 23:21:39 -0500
Subject: origins of Pali
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b4a0a4aa5e4a@[212.250.69.1]>
Message-ID: <161227055188.23782.9690299926698230547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


>I am afraid we have to start from Adam and Eve again, which I am not
>really willing nor do I have the time to do:
>
>* Asoka prefers to write in the  local language/dialect (Greek /Aramaic in
>Afghanistan, or NW MIA dialect in NW Pakistan, with typical NW metathesis:
>dhrama for dharma, etc. etc.)
>
>* where he does not,this has to be explained, e.g. in S.India, where he
>unfortunately did not write in Dravidian but in MIA... (NB: I do not know
>of a cogent explanation for this last fact -- except maybe that Dravidian
>was not yet WRITTEN at that time ---; interestingly, as far as I remember
>here at home, these southern inscr. are in "Patna" chancellary dialect)
>
>* If one wants to deny the above two items, and go beyond circular
>arguments, one has to link the inscriptions with other well known facts --
>(not directly with the "modern" and medieval form of Pali; even the oldest
>MS, from Nepal, is only mid 1st mill.++, in Gupta type script)--
>-- but with  the (much) later gramm. descriptions or with the preceding
>Vedic dialects -- or even better, with near contemporary (early
>post-Asoka) inscriptions.


>We all know of course that Pali is a literary Koine with many dialect
>features (and Sanskritization even throughout the Middle Ages, standard
>examples : -sattva instead of -satta, brAhmaNa instead of bahmaNa etc.),
>---  but its basic dialect  has (hackneyed) western  nom. -o, not -e, has
>r not l, etc . etc.
>
>For some of the above features / discussions see C. Caillat and Witzel in:
>Dialectes dans les litt. indiennes, Paris 1989 (ed. C. Caillat), and see
>Caillat in: Inside the texts- beyond the texts,(ed. Witzel)  Cambridge
>1997 ( (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/hos.htm).
>); also  note Caillat's insistence on historical changes between late
>Vedic, early MIA, early Pali, and Asokan inscr., -- not to forget the
>complicated problem of Asoka's "chancellary" language as opposed to
>typical local dialect features of Maagadhii.
>


<more -- details -- in next message>


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: text/enriched
Size: 2038 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000111/691803f0/attachment.bin>

From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan 11 23:39:07 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 23:39:07 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics
Message-ID: <161227055169.23782.5679450233309694096.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
> ~It is a remarkably succint account of the Hindi-family (pl.dont translate
> ~as Parivaar), working and that is the big future of Hindi as Films, tv,
> ~and music-lit,pop fiction and even translations from other languages,
> ~have shown inspite of all  political hurdles.
>
>  This view from Delhi is the summary coming from the Center-State,
> modeled after 18-19th European statecraft. Even allowing private firms
> for one-way broadcast media have moved folks away from AIR and
> Doordarshan.

This view was a reaction to the negotiating ability of the Hindi family and its
contiguous languages as given by another scholar. This thread had begun by speculations
on the wide reach of Hindi and I prefer to stick to that issue.

But as you have injected extraneous reasons of Central support to Hindi, my reactions.

The films in India were neither supported, financed, subsidised or patronised (but
always well milked as a tax source) by the British and all Govts. at Centre. Hindi films
are among the largest industry in the world  because of the audience in India and
abroad, including diaspora, Gulf, Central Asia and in fifties Greece as well.

Where is the Centre-State relationship in it?  It is just like the Anglophonic Hollywood
having its willing audience in Europe. Why confuse the three language formuala of the
Central Govt. of India and the complaint of "Hindi imposition on Southern States" with
the enterprsie of films. Madras is still a  large centre for Hindi film production. Burn
some cinema-halls on the day of anti-Hndi agitation but make your money rest of the
years at the studios, this has been also an economic reality.

Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu have used films to create their charismatic leaders
acting mythical roles, inspite of political Naickerism, democratically elected, a two
way traffic. No such  leaders in the Hindi belt.

Cable tv and Star Net, Zee, Sony and many others continue with Hindi for the same reason
:larger audience (50% of India know standard Hindi passively). The channels in other
languages are not going to reduce but only supplement Hindi.


>I see a different future with Net's expansion in India;
> Might have felt this from the responses to your mails in academic
> lists. A reduction in internal colonialism, what Pollock calls as
> "Deep Orientalism" working for millennia, is bound to happen with
> the WWW.
> Responses to my mail opposed my multiligual perception of the Indian society through
ages by either a globalsit perpective, such as promotion of Roman script or assertions
that Tamil-nation state has existed for two thousand years.

> The Net is a different animal:

Net is only a tehnology, it can be used, like all other earlier technologies for worse
than animal purposes. WWW can also be used for promoting Deep Orientalism and internal
colonialism sitting in anywhere in the globe, as recent highjacking was guided from
Europe. Del3 is in delhi but dot-com can be in Washington or North Sri Lanka.

>it is two-way channel, opposite
> of newspaper, radio, film and tv which are usually, State tools
> in the underdeveloped world.

What a surprise ,after you and Mr. Ganesan ( two bodies and one soul, such was the
concurrence between the two of you) just yesterday, advocated for the uniformity of the
Roman script to be imposed one all Indian scripts. Please dont forget that most of the
data base is made and managed in the First World. There are many who see it as a New
Colonialism. And how much levelling has it done in the First World, any way. 3%
americans controlling the wealth of 97% ? MAegers and Mergers, after net not SMALL but
BIG is beautiful.

Two way traffic may begin when a farmer in Tirunellvelli can send email in his language
to another in Orissa, and the technolgy translates and transcribes into Orria for ready
use. Bll Gates can give the program (to the Indian First World !),  but not power, water
and computer to the farmer.

Bharat Gupt




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan 12 07:53:31 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 23:53:31 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055158.23782.10129782278545528599.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Samar Abbas wrote:
>
>
> Moreover, what to make of the following table ?
>
> > Frequency of Ddel(10,394)Alul(10,397)Haplotypes in Punjab
> >                      ++         +-         --
> >              no.     (%)        (%)        (%)
> >  _________________________________________________________
> > Caucasoids        383     1.0        21.4        77.6
> > Punjabi            78     26.9       12.8        60.2
> > Tribals (A.P.)     30     60.0        0          40.0
> > East Asians       153     44.4        7.2        48.4
> > Sub-Sah. African  197      1.5       88.7         9.6
>
>  This shows a negligible Caucasoid contribution, even to Punjabi
> populations.

There is a fairly high presence of -- in Punjabis.

It has been suggested that this and Dr.N.Mahajan's citations
> negate an "Aryan invasion"; before `OIT' advocates celebrate they should
> realise that these papers negate any major Indo-Caucasoid presence itself.
> Simply put, the papers indicate that there are genetically speaking no
> `Indo-Aryans' in India. So, bad news for both AIT as well as OIT. Of
> course, this is just part of the data.
>


Yes, just from the maternal side.


> > A newer publication deals with mtDNA haplotype M, which was formerly
> > thought of as Asian origin, but which now may be connected with the
> > first migration out of Ethiopia, and strangely enough into India!
>
>  This seems to imply that the first Africoid migration into India occurred not from Sudan (as suggested by Sergent) but from Ethiopia (presumably via the Yemen). Or did Ethiopians (presumably `Hamites') inhabit the Sudan prior to the advent of Sudanics ?
>

Haplotype M must have crossed over into Yemem because there aren't many
traces of it in the Levant.


> > Regarding Y chromosomes, global studies have placed South Asians in a
> > cluster with Southeast Asians.
>
> This Southeast Asiatic contribution may come from `Naga'+`Kirata'
> immigrations which are attested in ancient texts. Strange also, that they
> left little mark in linguistic terms - even East India is IA. Has this
> contribution been overlooked, or has the research been neglected ?
>


Well, that's one of the points of my website at:

http;//www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9845/austric.htm


> > There are African YAP+ haplotypes in India, but many Indian haplotypes
> > appear to be of Indian origin.
>
>   On what timescale could such haplotypes arise ? What would be the
> probability of them arising independantly ?

For the later haplotypes the probability would be very small indeed
because at the least you would have to multiply the probabilities of all
the ancestral haplotypes together.


>Also, is there any reason for> the East Asian-African mtDNA similarity ? C.A.Winters postulated an
> Africoid substratum in East Asia, an idea widely dismissed when he first> proposed it on linguistic grounds. Would this research support his thesis
> ? Or did these genes evolve independantly in East Asia ?
>

Of course, in reality there is a somewhat Africoid substratum
everywhere. From the phenotypic standpoint, yes, there was also an
Africoid or "Oceanic Negroid" presence in Asia.

I doubt that mtDNA haplotype M in Africa and Asia are unrelated. The
chances of independent evolution occuring are extremely tiny because
we're speaking of multiple events each dependent on the previous one.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jan 12 04:56:19 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 00 23:56:19 -0500
Subject: Pali (details)
Message-ID: <161227055191.23782.11510578398952437434.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>


NOW, the details:
>
>(Prof.Cousins  wrote:)
>>>The view that Pali is a western dialect is largely dependent upon the
>>>Girnar version of the edicts of the Emperor Asoka... the similarities
>>>are due to the scribe at
>>>Girnar i.e. he has in effect Sanskritized (or put in a more 'learned'
>>>form) his exemplar.
>>>
>
(Witzel:) This takes a very narrow view of a much larger complex of data.
>> Unless all these data  can be explained away, no eastern
>(Greater Magadha) origin of the Pali Koine.

(Cousins)
>
> What precise evidence do you have which locates specific features and
>forms with specific geographical areas in this period?

Common knowledge: even the old  GEIGER/PISCHEL  ETC ETC WILL DO; (and cf.
Patanjali at c.150 BCE.):

v instead of b
r instead of l;
  kh/ch,   cca/tiya, etc etc.
nom. masc. -o instead of -e
to quote only the most hackneyed ones; etc etc.
more from my office... on Friday(?)

>(Cousins)
>>
>>>K.R.Norman has discussed this point in various papers. It seems more
>>>likely that Pali originates somewhere further east i.e. in the area
>>>of larger Maagadha, rather than in the narrower area where the
>>>Maagadhii dialect (as later defined by grammarians) was spoken.
>>

>>(witzeL)
>> debatable.  For summaries, see O.
>>v. Hinuber , Das aeltere Mittelindisch im Ueberblick.
>

>(Cousins)
>The latter states: 'The evidence, on which these conclusions are based,
>are (sic) the inscriptions of A'soka (3rd century BC), which allow us to
>draw a very rough linguistic map of northern India'. So OvH does indeed
>give primacy to the inscriptions of Asoka.


Of course, as our oldest written materials. And note the "rough" map, which
implies discussion of many individual items.  All this is not so prima
facie as it may sound in such summaries.


Cousins:
> In the present context that means the inscriptions at Girnar (and the
>fragments from Sopara), as these are the only western examples.
>

What about the NW, and Delhi???
To countercheck the W and E. inscriptions (plus the ones in Drav. territory).

In addition, there  has been a long discussion on Asoka's chancellary
language and its features, as compared to Maagadhii and other dialects...
Items of the administration dialect can pop up anywhere in the local
transpositions/translations made from Afghanistan to S. India.

>(Cousins)
>He also gives a footnote reference to his Ueberblick, .... But I do not
>doubt that he takes a rather conservative view on this issue.

Conservative? -- He stresses Sanskritization and Koine character of Pali
throughout

The point rather is:  Which BASIC features of Pali fit which local dialects?

Quoting purely from memory (maybe more details on Friday from my office), I
point to early, post_Asokan local  MIA inscriptions in the western areas
(some typical ones conveniently collected by DC Sircar, Selected
inscriptions)  which easily show typical western features, such as  nom -o
instead of eastern -e.

(Where does Pali have such eastern forms <again from memory> as in the
Lumbini  words:  hide Buddhe jaate??)  And Lumbini is roughly north of
Benares... not north of Patna ...

The western features can then be compared to early post-Asokan
inscriptional eastern ones:
Where exactly is  the Boundary? (see below).


>(Cousins)
> let me cite from p. 55 (in the concluding paragraph):
>"If we can disregard the evidence of the A'sokan inscriptions ...  Pali
>.... had its home much nearer Magadha. .... when the Maagadhisms and
>Sanskritisms in Pali have been disregarded, there is, in fact, very little
>difference between the language of the Theravaadin canon and the language
>of the Haathigumphaa inscription."
> Norman, K.R., "The Languages of early Buddhism," in Premier Colloque
>?tienne Lamotte, pp. 83-99, 1993.)



We need to compare a lot of data from early MIA inscriptions (NW, C, E, W,
S, see above) not just Orissa, and from a range of centuries if need be:
The exact E/W dialect  boundary line is to be determined. This is probably
a POINT (the only one?)  WHERE WE CAN AGREE.  But on the basis of hard
(early inscriptional) evidence. Unfortunately little edited so far (see
again  Intro to OvH Ueberblick). -- The details on Friday.

Orissa, by the way, seems to represent, in my private estimation, a special
case (even in medieval times):  while it has an eastern form of MIA, it
also has some curiously western features, for example on of Patanjali's
(introd.) examples for 'knife" (daatra?)  <or was it hammati 'to go'?> a
word that he quotes for Saurastra! -- I have seen the same in the middle
ages: around 500 AD, strong cultural western influences  via the Nagpur
area, -- later ,superimposition of northern/Bengali features.  This does
not solves things for Asokan times, but points to caution that should be
exercised.


>(Cousins)
>Earlier in the paper examples are given of various cases (some of them
>new) in which A'sokan inscriptions are in a dialect which cannot have been
>that locally current.

This is well known, --  as far as individual features are concerned. See above.

>The most striking example remains Sopara (near to Girnar) which
>consistently changes l to r, even when this is historically inappropriate.
>It is very difficult to believe that the local dialect actually had phara
>(for phala) or ma.mgara (for ma.mgala).
>

To quote r/l is  not the best  example, (though the east likes l better ,
type   raajaa = laaja) -- because of the unstable characteristics of this
sound: it changes back and forth within the Vedic texts (see my paper in
Zimbun 1991)  and continued to do so (Lumbini <-devii> modern Rummin-dei).
O.v.Hinueber has a note in Ueberblick  on this point as well, somewhat
along these lines. (( The Sopara example with l > r could easily be due to
a mechanic, hypercorrect  change from  eastern dialect -l- to more typical
western -r- , whatever the local dialect actually had. -- Must take a look
at it. ))

------


Finally, this whole question has some connection with another one - a can
of worms I better do not open: the relationship between the Buddha's
eastern Koine-type dialect, the transpositions made from Buddha's dialect
into Pali (and other early MIA dialects/early half-Prakritic Buddh. Skt.),
early Maagadhii, and  Asoka's chancellary dialect.....
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: text/enriched
Size: 6890 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000111/4fb85f93/attachment.bin>

From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 12 12:11:50 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 04:11:50 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW  genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055201.23782.15893399359982530872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<<
So-- how did the IA languages develop in South Asia/Central
Asia/Europe without any population transfer of significance between
them?

Put another way, since the transfer -did- occur, the question is,
extrapolating from these data, what is the maximum number of
"Indo-Aryan"/Caucasian people entering into the South Asian
bloodstream which would account for the figures shown, at various
alternative dates?

That number would tell you how many people it took to bring about
the IA language changes.  If it is a small number and relatively
recent (a few thousands of years), then it would seem unlikely, from
a social mechanics point of view, that so vast a group of changes
could have come about through peaceful integration of nomadic herders
and farmers.  Something more violently upsetting to the power and
cultural framework would be required. The IAs, despite their small
numbers, had a transforming influence on South Asian culture and
languages.  A collision of cultures, perhaps?
 >>

D. Anthony, Horse, wagon, and chariot: IE languages and
archaeology, Antiquity, Sep. 1995, gives a good working model on
the IE expansion via Elite Dominance. Relevent portions were provided
on 5 Jan 1999, "Language change to IA". (Indology archives.)

Earlier, S. Palaniappan gave an interesting Indian example.
Malayalam is created in the last few centuries mainly by the
tiny elite caste of Nambudiris (about 0.5% in 1931 Kerala).
Pl. see his 13 Feb. 1998 posting, "Re: Origin of Dravidian languages".
Also, 20 June 1998, "Re: Tampering with history".

Within few centuries, by a very tiny elite populace, Malayalam
is created out of Tamil; Parallely,  3-5 % ethnic Aryans with archery,
chariots & new type of religion would have worked wonders in about
3 millennia.

The exact percentage of entering/invading Aryans will be provided
by genetics in the future. So far, the sample sizes and regional/caste
examples are pretty small.

Guestimate is total of 3-6% of migrating Aryans. Any other numbers??

Regards,
N. Ganesan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 12 12:26:45 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 04:26:45 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055203.23782.71872988740947772.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG>>Sankara could well have lived around 900 CE.

Vidyasankar Sundaresan replied:
VS>I agree, if Vacaspati's date is 976, rather than 841.

    No serious scholar of Indian philosophy believes vAcaspati
  to be a 9th century guy. Recently, there was a detailed
  reply confirming this here. Also, P. Hacker wrote years
  ago that vAcaspati lived in late 10th century.
  (p. 30, Halbfass, Philology and Confrontation, Paul Hacker
  on Tradional and Modern Vedanta).

  Regards,
  N. Ganesan

In sum,
NG>>Sankara's date might well be around 900 A.D. rather than the usual
NG>>800 A.D.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 12 12:47:58 2000
From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 04:47:58 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055205.23782.6776737126936816796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is this a complete reversal of the majority academic opinion about
the languages in IVC? Is this hinting that the IE home is India?
Archaeologists have not bought that theory.

It is not the horse itself, but the horse religion is of interest to
IVC  culture. No horse in 1000s of IVC seals! After 1700 B.C.,
Prof. Witzel thinks Dravidians could have introduced horse into
India (EJVS, 1999)  first, but not the chariots. Also, how to
explain dravidian elements (retroflexion, syntax, words etc.,) in
North India?

"Elite dominance" strategm of the IA expansion in India starting
from around 1500 BCE is explained in academic publications widely.
Some of them in Indology archives, pointers given in earlier
mail.

Regards,
N. Ganesan

<<<
Atleast Large scale genocide without gunpowder and technology is ruled
out by genetics and by common sense. Maybe the IA speakers had armies
of teachers who were hell bent on teaching the language they spoke to
a population which was equally keen to forget other languages. The
class rooms would have student to teacher ratios of a million to one.
I may be exagerating but unfortunately these are the only kinds of
scenarios consistant with the old perspective.

In contrast if we can think of India being multilingual with a small
IE component since the earliest times. Then the language which
pevailed would be that of the group which could matain a sustained
population explosion with the help of agriculture. IA would then
evolve from IE under the influence of other language groups and become
the language of the majority. Other language groups would also be
influenced by the IA language due to sheer size and inertia. Dravidian
languages could have spread by a similar mechanism at a later time
into the southern regions of the IVC but would have less influence in
the north with its established linguistic inertia and also being
farther from the center of spread. By the same token IA would
have less influence in the south.

I dont know if the IVC seals indicate whether the society was
multilingual or not.

The horse obsession of vedic society could be explained as signs of
the times when some of the vedas were finalized and it does not rule
an earlier IA presence in India or earlier components of the vedas
and other non horse centric IA speakers.
>>>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU  Wed Jan 12 14:28:18 2000
From: nachar at MEMPHIS.EDU (Narahari Achar)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 08:28:18 -0600
Subject: WAVES Conference
Message-ID: <161227055207.23782.6700744507948322108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends:
There was a typo mistake in the URL that was given in my earlier
annoncement. Here is the corrected message. Sorry for any
inconvenience-Narahari Achar
Dear Friends:
Greetings.  You perhaps already know that the World Association for
Vedic Studies is holding it's Third International Conference at the
Steven's Institute of Technology in Hoboken, NJ , July 28-30 2000. (The
details are found at http://www.sunsar.com/WAVES/).
As a part of the Conference, several symposia are being organized,
including  one  concerning Ancient India's Contribution in Mathematics,
Science and Technology.  Persons interested in these topics may submit
abstracts to the
address given below. For other interesting areas and people responsible
see the web site.
Sincerely yours,
B. N. Narahari Achar

B. N. Narahari Achar
Professor of Physics
University of Memphis
Memphis TN 38152
email: nachar at memphis.edu
Tel No. (901) 678-3122 (Off.)
 (901) 767-1139 (Home)




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jan 12 17:42:27 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 09:42:27 -0800
Subject: Kayasthas
Message-ID: <161227055213.23782.12532948492152166465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa - a Kayasth??


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Wed Jan 12 09:07:36 2000
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:07:36 +0100
Subject: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.96.1000112184536.71850F-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055222.23782.7515925518579624000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some suggestions (the first five may be preferable; the first three as
short and manageable for beginners; the fourth and fifth because of the
lilt of their metre and direct mention of Sugata/;Saast.r):

>?From Kambala's Aaloka-maalaa (ed. Chr. Lindtner), verse 1:
aj;naana-trayanaa;saaya sva-bhaava-traya-bhaavanaa /
namas tasmai muniindraaya yenoktaa citta-maatrataa //

>?From Dharma-kiirti's Pramaa.na-vaarttika:
vidhuuta-kalpanaa-jaala-gambhiirodaara-muurtaye /
nama.h samanta-bhadraaya samanta-sphara.na-tvi.se //

>?From Manoratha-nandin's V.rtti on the preceding:
vimuktaavara.na-kle;sa.m diiptaakhila-gu.na-;sriyam /
svaika-vedyaatma-sa.mpatti.m namasyaami mahaa-munim //

>?From Dharmottara's .Tiikaa on Dharma-kiirti's Nyaaya-bindu:
jayanti jaati-vyasana-prabandha-prasuuti-hetor jagato vijetu.h /
raagaady-araate.h sugatasya vaaco manas-tamas-taanavam aadadhaanaa.h //

>?From Ya;so-mitra's Vyaakhyaa on Vasu-bandhu's Abhidharma-ko;sa:
mahaa-balo j;naana-samaadhi-danto ya.h pa;njara.m janmamaya.m vidaarya /
vive;sa nirv.rtya.tavii.m pra;saantaa.m ta.m ;saast.r-naaga.m ;sirasaa
namaami //



>?From Naagaarjuna's Madhyamaka-;saastra or Muula-madhyamaka-kaarikaa:
anirodham anutpaadam anucchedam a;saa;svatam /
anekaartham anaanaartham anaagamam anirgamam //
ya.h pratiitya-samutpaada.m prapa;ncopa;sama.m ;sivam /
de;sayaamaasa sa.mbuddhas ta.m vande vadataa.m varam //

>?From Jitaari's Nairaatyma-siddhi:
jayati pravacana-kira.nai.h parama-tama.h-pa.tala-vigha.tane pa.tubhi.h /
pa.n.dita-ga.naabja-jaata.m prabodhayan dharma-raaja-ravi.h //


-- ashok aklujkar


>   Is there a metrical invocation (preferably in Skt.) from a Buddhist
>text which in *any* way corresponds to verses like:
>
>        sarasvati namastubhyaM varade kaamaruupiNi (etc.)
>
>or      zuklaambaradharaM viSNuM zazivarNaM caturbhujam (etc.)
>
>I need something appropriate to teach a group of Intro. to Buddhism
>students on the first day of class. Or any metrical slogan dealing with
>the 1st Noble Truth.
>
>best,
>Tim Cahill




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jan 12 09:16:44 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:16:44 +0100
Subject: SV: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055199.23782.7749254926346559453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ramadas [SMTP:dasa at ONE.NET.AU] skrev 12. januar 2000 01:21:
>Is it that, in your opinion, the invading hordes were all male, they all
made concubines of every native female they encountered, all native males
were eliminated, and in this way the DNA of the invaders was watered down to
insignificance in an incredibly short period of time?

>If so, this appears to be a very opportunistic way to try and bolster your
case.

If I may but in: It is a well-known practice of war in ancient times to regard
the enemy's women as part of the booty. The Aryans that entered India
undoubtedly brought their own women, but that did not stop them from mixing
genes with local women whereever they went. Local women could probably be
acquired in several ways - not only as booty - but the consequences for the
gene pool will have been marked after a couple of centuries.

I think it is reasonable to assume that the Indo-Iranians that left the
Urheimat (whereever that was) about 2200-2000 BCE may have looked somewhat
differently from the ones that entered India some time around 1700 BCE. They
met a lot of women on their way. By the time they entered India, they may not
have been very different from everybody else in the area.

But then, we can only speculate.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Fosse

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan 12 18:51:35 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 10:51:35 -0800
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055171.23782.5389129020791204725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"David Salmon (Kettenpom)" wrote:


>
> Put another way, since the transfer -did- occur, the question is,
> extrapolating from these data, what is the maximum number of
> "Indo-Aryan"/Caucasian people entering into the South Asian bloodstream
> which would account for the figures shown, at various alternative dates?

I won't reply to some of the other points you made in your post, since
they involve assumptions I don't agree with and it would be a monumental
task to deal with them here.

However, regarding the use of the term "Caucasian types," it is
difficult to positively relate genes with phenotype.

One might think from the standpoint of phenotype that Melanesians and
Africans were closely related but so far there is not much evidence in
that direction. In fact, Melanesians are closer to Polynesians and even
Chinese according to current data.

Sun theories of yore tried to make Plains Indians and Polynesians into
Caucasoids, Proto-Caucasoids or part-Caucasoids based on narrow nose
percentages, or Ainus and Australian Aborigines into the same based on
luxuriant body hair. Again, the genetic evidence doesn't support this at
all (although some geneticists are still making valiant efforts).

There is hardly a physical feature that is exclusive to any race.

Thus, "Caucasian" features and foreign genetic contribution are
different things. The former can easily develop independent of the
latter.

The modern population of India outside of the Punjab, according to the
most reliable data (mtDNA & Y chromosome), does not appear to have major
contribution from West Asia or Europe related stocks.

Punjabis and Pakistanis show some fairly close relation to Iranians,
Afghanis, etc. but nearly as much to Europeans.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From dasa at ONE.NET.AU  Wed Jan 12 00:20:30 2000
From: dasa at ONE.NET.AU (Ramadas)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 11:20:30 +1100
Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055197.23782.14383957164294885113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Samar Abbas" <abbas at IOPB.RES.IN>
Sent: Monday, 10 January 2000 7:24 PM

> Sanskrit texts record numerous terms based on `dasi' which indicates
> significant concubinage of pre-Indo-European Semitic and Dravidoid women
> in Indo-Aryan households.
[..]
> Naturally, the `Aryan' offspring of such unions would inherit the mt DNA
> which has been analysed, displaying Semitic or Mulatto ancestry. All
> maternal trace of such an `Aryan invasion' would of course have been wiped
> out. A fact confirmed by the two excellent papers cited by Dr N. Mahajan.
[..]

I am trying to understand your point:
Is it that, in your opinion, the invading hordes were all male, they all
made concubines of every native female they encountered, all native males
were eliminated, and in this way the DNA of the invaders was watered down to
insignificance in an incredibly short period of time?

If so, this appears to be a very opportunistic way to try and bolster your
case.

Kindest regards
Ramadas




From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Wed Jan 12 19:35:57 2000
From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 11:35:57 -0800
Subject: Ramakrishna Paramahamsadeva
In-Reply-To: <20000112174227.26550.qmail@web308.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055218.23782.13537295908255713556.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ramakrishna Paramahamsadeva was a brahmin. His name was Gadadhara
Chattaopadhyaya.

Mandakranta Bose
Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research
Institute of Asian Research
University of British Columbia
Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2
mbose at interchange.ubc.ca

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:

> Ramakrishna Paramahamsa - a Kayasth??
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Jan 12 19:34:35 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 14:34:35 -0500
Subject: AIT, NEW  genetic evidence
Message-ID: <161227055215.23782.9965425916051572017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

NG> Within few centuries, by a very tiny elite populace, Malayalam
is created out of Tamil.

RB> This is very interesting. What was the language in kerala like before
malyalam came along?
Surely it did not belong to a different language family.

NG> 3-5 % ethnic Aryans with archery, chariots & new type of religion would
have worked wonders in about
3 millennia.

RB> Ethnic Aryans must have worked their wonders from 1700 to 1000 BC not 3
millenia. I dont find that too impausible either. But start thinking about
how unified and organized the initial IA speakers would have had to be.
Surely the IVC language would have had some inertia and would take a lot of
swallowing to do. Archery is a stone age invention and would not have
dazzled anyone. Archery was probably invented by hunter gatherers to kill
birds and other game. Tribals in India surely used things like bows and
arrows.

NG> It is not the horse itself, but the horse religion is of interest to
IVC  culture. No horse in 1000s of IVC seals! After 1700 B.C.,
Prof. Witzel thinks Dravidians could have introduced horse into
India (EJVS, 1999)  first, but not the chariots.

RB> The horse argument is exactly what I am trying to explain away when I
say:
The horse obsession of vedic society could be explained as signs of the
times when some of the vedas were finalized. It does not rule an earlier IA
presence in India, earlier components of the vedas and other non horse
centric IA speakers.

NG> Also, how to explain dravidian elements (retroflexion, syntax, words
etc.,) in
North India?

RB> According to Dr. Witzel retroflexion in sanskrit is distinct and has an
independant origin from dravidian. Also dravidian loan words occur at a
fairly late stage in vedic.

NG> Is this a complete reversal of the majority academic opinion about
the languages in IVC.

RB> Majority or minority academic opinion regarding the IVC language is not
worth much simply because there is not enough evidence.

NG> Is this hinting that the IE home is India?
Archaeologists have not bought that theory.

RB> We dont have to deal in such absolutes. I am only making a conjecture
and I really dont know. India could have had a subset of IE speakers at an
early stage. If there was an IE homeland in central asia, nothing would
prevent migrants from settling in places in western India or pakistan at
early dates, After all it was warm, less arid, there was more game and there
were more animals to domesticate. The indian branch may have split from PIE
at a really early stage. IE spread to europe would be slower due to less
hospitable conditions.

NG> "Elite dominance" strategm of the IA expansion in India starting
from around 1500 BCE is explained in academic publications widely.
Some of them in Indology archives, pointers given in earlier
mail.

RB> Its just a theory, not known history. I can accept it when more details
are known, but other ideas can also be explored.

regards

R. Banerjee




From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Wed Jan 12 16:11:12 2000
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 16:11:12 +0000
Subject: origins of Pali
In-Reply-To: <v04011701b4a12256b1de@[140.247.41.144]>
Message-ID: <161227055209.23782.16838647342375808986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Witzel:

>>I am afraid we have to start from Adam and Eve again, which I am
>>not really willing nor do I have the time to do:
>>
>>* Asoka prefers to write in the  local language/dialect (Greek
>>/Aramaic in Afghanistan, or NW MIA dialect in NW Pakistan, with
>>typical NW metathesis: dhrama for dharma, etc. etc.)

This is what is in debate. Even for the northwest there is a recently
discovered inscription in Braahmii with no north-western dialect
features.

>>* where he does not,this has to be explained, e.g. in S.India,
>>where he unfortunately did not write in Dravidian but in MIA...
>>(NB: I do not know of a cogent explanation for this last fact --
>>except maybe that Dravidian was not yet WRITTEN at that time ---;
>>interestingly, as far as I remember here at home, these southern
>>inscr. are in "Patna" chancellary dialect)

The converse is the case. We should perhaps view the north-west as
the special case which has to be explained i.e. it is probably a
product of pre-existent administrative practice in this area, using
the Kharo.s.thii alphabet.

>>* If one wants to deny the above two items, and go beyond circular
>>arguments, one has to link the inscriptions with other well known
>>facts -- (not directly with the "modern" and medieval form of Pali;
>>even the oldest MS, from Nepal, is only mid 1st mill.++, in Gupta
>>type script)--

It is a little later that that, but there are also Pali materials
from Burma (Pyu), dating to the fifth or sixth century A.D..

>>-- but with  the (much) later gramm. descriptions or with the
>>preceding Vedic dialects -- or even better, with near contemporary
>>(early post-Asoka) inscriptions.

This is well-known. However, it should not be exaggerated. The
discussions in the Pali commentaries do sometimes make it clear what
precise forms are at issue.

>
>>We all know of course that Pali is a literary Koine with many
>>dialect features (and Sanskritization even throughout the Middle
>>Ages, standard examples : -sattva instead of -satta, brAhmaNa
>>instead of bahmaNa etc.),  ---  but its basic dialect  has
>>(hackneyed) western nom. -o, not -e, has  r not l, etc . etc.

The form -sattva- is not found in any Pali text; you must be thinking
of BHS. Metrical studies may show that braahma.na- is sometimes or
always a later Sankritization and not an indigenous feature of Pali.

The point at issue is whether forms such as the nominative in -o are
geographically an exclusively western feature. And in fact they are
not. The inscription of Khaaravela does not have either the
nominative singular in -e nor the use of l for r. It is not alone in
this.

Subsequent inscriptions from Western India in the century after
A'soka do not closely resemble the language of Girnaar. Conversely
the inscriptions from Bhaarhut and Saa~ncii have elements in common
with Pali which are not found in the inscriptions of A'soka.

OXFORD, UK

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:
L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com




From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM  Wed Jan 12 16:57:48 2000
From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 16:57:48 +0000
Subject: Pali (details)
In-Reply-To: <v04011704b4a1abfc08f2@[140.247.49.145]>
Message-ID: <161227055211.23782.3741695828623211697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

<excerpt>(Cousins)

<excerpt>

 What precise evidence do you have which locates specific features and
forms with specific geographical areas in this period?

</excerpt></excerpt>

(Witzel)


<excerpt>Common knowledge: even the old  GEIGER/PISCHEL  ETC ETC WILL
DO; (and cf. Patanjali at c.150 BCE.):


v instead of b

r instead of l; 

  kh/ch,   cca/tiya, etc etc.

nom. masc. -o instead of -e 

to quote only the most hackneyed ones; etc etc.

more from my office... on Friday(?)

</excerpt>

The issue isn't the reality of such distinctions. The question is as to
how we geographically locate them.


I don't in principle object to Helmer Smith's "la koine gang?tique dont
l'ardhamaagadhii et le pali repr?sentent les normalisations les plus
anciennes" (Journal Asiatique 1952, p. 178). Of course, there is
material which was not available to Smith; so there may now be other
equally ancient material.   But the notion that we are talking of
languages which have their basis in the Gangetic basin i.e. in the
territories of the enlarged kingdom of Maagadha seems essentially
correct.


Looking in OvH's Ueberblick, it seems clear that he takes his stand on
the similarity of Pali to Girnaar. But this is no longer a tenable
position in my view, at least not without argument.


<excerpt><excerpt>(Cousins)

The latter states: 'The evidence, on which these conclusions are based,
are (sic) the inscriptions of A'soka (3rd century BC), which allow us
to draw a very rough linguistic map of northern India'. So OvH does
indeed give primacy to the inscriptions of Asoka.

</excerpt>


Of course, as our oldest written materials. And note the "rough" map,
which implies discussion of many individual items.  All this is not so
prima facie as it may sound in such summaries.

</excerpt>

Quite.


<excerpt>

Cousins:

<excerpt> In the present context that means the inscriptions at Girnar
(and the fragments from Sopara), as these are the only western
examples.


</excerpt>

What about the NW, and Delhi???

To countercheck the W and E. inscriptions (plus the ones in Drav.
territory).

</excerpt>

The point at issue was the assertion that Pali resembled a western
dialect evidenced in the A'sokan inscriptions. The NW is therefore
irrelevant. 


I am not sure what you are referring to by 'Delhi'. Do you mean the
version of MRE I at Bahaapur or the two sets of pillar edicts brought
to Delhi by Firoz Shah in 1356 A.D. ?


It is not clear to me how they are relevant to a discussion of the
relationship between Pali and the supposed Girnaar dialect.


<excerpt><excerpt>(Cousins)

He also gives a footnote reference to his Ueberblick, .... But I do not
doubt that he takes a rather conservative view on this issue.

</excerpt>

Conservative? -- He stresses Sanskritization and Koine character of
Pali throughout 

</excerpt>

There is hardly anything new about either of those claims.


We should of course distinguish between 1) a usage of 'Pali' as the
name adopted since the 17th century for the language of the Theravaadin
recension of the Buddhist Canon i.e. the language of the texts (paa.li)
- the correct name (i.e. the only anciently attested one) being
Maagadha-bhaasaa and 2) the original spoken dialect which underlies
that language.


<excerpt>The point rather is:  Which BASIC features of Pali fit which
local dialects?


Quoting purely from memory (maybe more details on Friday from my
office), I point to early, post_Asokan local  MIA inscriptions in the
western areas (some typical ones conveniently collected by DC Sircar,
Selected inscriptions)  which easily show typical western features,
such as  nom -o instead of eastern -e.

</excerpt>

Again, this is a very widespread feature. It is certain that not all
dialects in the east had the nominative in -e.


<excerpt>(Where does Pali have such eastern forms <<again from memory>
as in the Lumbini  words:  hide Buddhe jaate??)  And Lumbini is roughly
north of Benares... not north of Patna ...

</excerpt>

Reading from a handy xerox copy of the inscription itself, I make it
hida Budhe jaate.


But the geographical location is hardly relevant, since the scribe
(probably from Patna) accompanying A'soka may have simply written down
the spoken words of A'soka in A'soka's spoken dialect or he might have
written them down in the form he was used to using (or one of them may
have been citing a scriptural text).


In any case, as stated before, the ending -e is not significant. Hida
is quite close to Pali idha, rather than the iha of most Prakrits. (The
h- is emphatic as Pali heva.m. Or, do you consider this to be a
Maagadhism?)


<excerpt>The western features can then be compared to early post-Asokan
inscriptional eastern ones: 

Where exactly is  the Boundary? (see below).


<excerpt>(Cousins)

 let me cite from p. 55 (in the concluding paragraph):

"If we can disregard the evidence of the A'sokan inscriptions ...  Pali
...... had its home much nearer Magadha. .... when the Maagadhisms and
Sanskritisms in Pali have been disregarded, there is, in fact, very
little difference between the language of the Theravaadin canon and the
language of the Haathigumphaa inscription."

</excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Geneva</param><smaller>(Witzel)

</smaller><bold>We need to compare a lot of data from early MIA
inscriptions (NW, C, E, W, S, see above) not just Orissa, and from a
range of centuries if need be: </bold></fontfamily>The exact E/W
dialect  boundary line is to be determined. This is probably a POINT
(the only one?)  WHERE WE CAN AGREE.  But on the basis of hard (early
inscriptional) evidence. Unfortunately little edited so far (see again 
Intro to OvH Ueberblick). -- The details on Friday.

</excerpt>

Yes, although I take Norman's comments to be based upon precisely such
examination of a number of inscriptions (not just Orissa).


<excerpt>Orissa, by the way, seems to represent, in my private
estimation, a special case (even in medieval times):  while it has an
eastern form of MIA, it also has some curiously western features, for
example on of Patanjali's (introd.) examples for 'knife" (daatra?) 
<<or was it hammati 'to go'?> a word that he quotes for Saurastra! -- I
have seen the same in the middle ages: around 500 AD, strong cultural
western influences  via the Nagpur area, -- later ,superimposition of
northern/Bengali features.  This does not solves things for Asokan
times, but points to caution that should be exercised.


</excerpt>

If you take the view that Orissa is a special case, then you will have
to agree that the A'sokan inscriptions from that area are another
example where the language of the edicts does not correspond to that
locally spoken.


<excerpt><excerpt><fontfamily><param>Geneva</param><smaller>(Cousins)

</smaller></fontfamily>Earlier in the paper examples are given of
various cases (some of them new) in which A'sokan inscriptions are in a
dialect which cannot have been that locally current. 

</excerpt>

This is well known, --  as far as individual features are concerned.
See above.


<excerpt>The most striking example remains Sopara (near to Girnar)
which consistently changes l to r, even when this is historically
inappropriate. It is very difficult to believe that the local dialect
actually had phara (for phala) or ma.mgara (for ma.mgala).


</excerpt>

To quote r/l is  not the best  example, (though the east likes l better
, type   raajaa = laaja) -- because of the unstable characteristics of
this sound: it changes back and forth within the Vedic texts (see my
paper in Zimbun 1991)

</excerpt>

I have not seen your paper yet. But I assume that this kind of thing
may simply evidence that such dialect variations are quite old.


<excerpt>  and continued to do so (Lumbini <<-devii> modern
Rummin-dei).

</excerpt>

As pointed out above, the inscription is not evidence for local
pronunciation.


<excerpt>  O.v.Hinueber has a note in Ueberblick  on this point as
well, somewhat along these lines. (( The Sopara example with l > r
could easily be due to a mechanic, hypercorrect  change from  eastern
dialect -l- to more typical western -r- , whatever the local dialect
actually had. -- Must take a look at it. ))

</excerpt>

That is the point. It is precisely this type of scribal correction
which is evidenced at Girnaar, not local dialect. 


But perhaps we need to be clearer what we mean by 'eastern' and
'western'. I have no problem with the linguistic distinction between
dialects that you describe. It is the geographic localization which is
problematic. If you are able to agree that the type of dialect that you
call 'western' may have been found in some (or even many)
geographically eastern areas, then there would be no dispute between
us. If, however, you think that Pali (or the 'pre-Pali' spoken dialect
which underlies it) is a western dialect likely to originate
specifically from the Girnaar region, then we do disagree.


It must however have been spoken somewhere. Even a koine does not exist
in vacuo.


L.S. Cousins 

OXFORD, UK


CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES:

L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: text/enriched
Size: 9092 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000112/2eb97ae0/attachment.bin>

From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Thu Jan 13 00:56:22 2000
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 00 18:56:22 -0600
Subject: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b4a0a4aa5e4a@[212.250.69.1]>
Message-ID: <161227055220.23782.18352172234353906398.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indologists,

   Is there a metrical invocation (preferably in Skt.) from a Buddhist
text which in *any* way corresponds to verses like:

        sarasvati namastubhyaM varade kaamaruupiNi (etc.)

or      zuklaambaradharaM viSNuM zazivarNaM caturbhujam (etc.)

I need something appropriate to teach a group of Intro. to Buddhism
students on the first day of class. Or any metrical slogan dealing with
the 1st Noble Truth.

best,
Tim Cahill




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Thu Jan 13 14:37:56 2000
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 09:37:56 -0500
Subject: event announcement from SARAI
Message-ID: <161227055224.23782.8470749647959926320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The following event announcement is being forwarded to your listserv or
mailing list from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI.
It's individual listing there can be viewed at:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai/conf/4.00.html
Please contact event organizers directly for any further information.
David Magier - SARAI

Call for Papers:
The Seventeenth Annual South Asia Spring Symposium in Hawaii

The Center for South Asian Studies, University of Hawaii at Manoa,
will be holding the XVII Annual Spring Symposium on April 13th through
15th, 2000. The theme of this year's symposium is "Public Culture and
Democracy in South Asia". The annual spring symposium is one of the
highlights of the academic calendar on the Manoa campus and in the
community. Past years have included participants such as Ashis Nandy,
Sudipta Kaviraj, E.Valentine Daniel, Ayesha Jalal, the late
A.K.Ramanujan, Gyan Prakash, Kapila Vatsyayan and many others. The
symposium, held in the verdant campus of the University of Hawaii, is
made possible by the generosity of the G.J. and Ellen Watumull Fund,
in addition to support from the University of Hawaii's School of
Hawaiian, Asian and Pacific Studies.

Some (highly) subsidized accomodation on campus can be arranged for
out-station scholars. Those interested in presenting a paper at the
symposium should send a title and abstract of the proposed paper to
the CSAS through email (csas at hawaii.edu) or by fax (808-956-2682).

The deadline for receipt of title/abstracts is January 31st, 2000.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Thu Jan 13 18:13:10 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 11:13:10 -0700
Subject: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.96.1000112184536.71850F-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055229.23782.12642519630310826733.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The best known invocation in ancient India, for others
as well as Buddhists, was "Om Namah Siddham".

The Siddham script used by Buddhists in China/Japan
is sometimes said to have been named because of this
invocation.

It was very common to start any formal instruction
with this invocation.

Yashwant




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Thu Jan 13 20:25:03 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 13:25:03 -0700
Subject: History of indian cooking (RE: Etymology: sambar, the dish?)
In-Reply-To: <387E246E.41C76D62@life.bio.sunysb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055235.23782.4376814204606201797.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Geeta Bharathan's  note remined me of something.

I've never seen anything on the history of Indian cooking. Are
there any resources? Is there a theory of Indian cooking? I know
about the six rasas (but I'm not sure I know exact definitions).

I know that Bengali Rasgulla and Gulabjamun are fairly recent
inventions. I have wondered what was Indian cooking like before
arrival of chilli peppers, tomatotos and potatoes? And exactly
what are the "56" items (vyanjanas) that we hear time to time?

Yashwant

----
Geeta Bharathan wrote:

Not along lines of most "Indological" questions, but there may be
interesting issue lurking here, so I hope you will take the query seriously.

I haven't been able to find the word in the two Tamil dictionaries I
have, nor in anything on line. The dish is common in Karnataka, Andhra
Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu, but the word seems to be nonexistent (it seems
to be more commonly used in Tamil)! What is the origin of the word? Does
it have anything to do with the SE Asian 'sambal' (which is more a
condiment, like a chutney than a 'curry' like sambar)?




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jan 13 21:28:47 2000
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 13:28:47 -0800
Subject: History of indian cooking (RE: Etymology: sambar, the dish?)
Message-ID: <161227055237.23782.11181948941510057050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I heard an interesting story I heard from Mr.
Nagarajan, a retired IAS officer who comes from a
family of smartha deshastha brahmins settled in
Thanjavur and who runs a small math originally
stablished by Samarth Ramadas in Thanjavur. According
to him Sambar, was coined after the Maratha prince
Sambhaji who invented(?) the dish from the tamil
kuzhambu. May I dont remember the invented part
correctly but his account did connect Sambar to
Sambhaji!

Nikhil
--- Yashwant Malaiya <malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU> wrote:
> Geeta Bharathan's  note remined me of something.
>
> I've never seen anything on the history of Indian
> cooking. Are
> there any resources? Is there a theory of Indian
> cooking? I know
> about the six rasas (but I'm not sure I know exact
> definitions).
>
> I know that Bengali Rasgulla and Gulabjamun are
> fairly recent
> inventions. I have wondered what was Indian cooking
> like before
> arrival of chilli peppers, tomatotos and potatoes?
> And exactly
> what are the "56" items (vyanjanas) that we hear
> time to time?
>
> Yashwant
>
> ----
> Geeta Bharathan wrote:
>
> Not along lines of most "Indological" questions, but
> there may be
> interesting issue lurking here, so I hope you will
> take the query seriously.
>
> I haven't been able to find the word in the two
> Tamil dictionaries I
> have, nor in anything on line. The dish is common in
> Karnataka, Andhra
> Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu, but the word seems to be
> nonexistent (it seems
> to be more commonly used in Tamil)! What is the
> origin of the word? Does
> it have anything to do with the SE Asian 'sambal'
> (which is more a
> condiment, like a chutney than a 'curry' like
> sambar)?
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Thu Jan 13 19:16:06 2000
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 14:16:06 -0500
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?
Message-ID: <161227055233.23782.1896884378811285354.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Not along lines of most "Indological" questions, but there may be
interesting issue lurking here, so I hope you will take the query seriously.

I haven't been able to find the word in the two Tamil dictionaries I
have, nor in anything on line. The dish is common in Karnataka, Andhra
Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu, but the word seems to be nonexistent (it seems
to be more commonly used in Tamil)! What is the origin of the word? Does
it have anything to do with the SE Asian 'sambal' (which is more a
condiment, like a chutney than a 'curry' like sambar)?

Thanks for any leads.

--Geeta




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 13 23:48:38 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 15:48:38 -0800
Subject: History of indian cooking
Message-ID: <161227055242.23782.18409878668029566214.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have come across two books in Sanskrit specifically on cooking. One is the
'Pakadarpana' said to have been written by Maharaja Nala (of the Nala and
Damayanti fame). I checked the book to see if there were any anachronisms
(like mention of tomatoes, cumin seeds, potatos and so on) and there were
none. The book had directions for preparing many specific meat dishes from
birds etc. also. You might be aware that the Hindu tradition (in the
Mahabharata?) too states that Maharaja Nala was was an excellent cook and
that he wrote a book on cooking. The Pakadarpana specifically mentions
'Sambhaar' as a dish prepared from lentils. It is amazing to note that
common traditional Indian cooking practices (like soaking rice before
cooking, and then dropping it in warm water) are mentioned in this text.

The other book (I forgot the name) is said to be the composition of Sushena
Vaidya, who is said to be none other than the physician of King Ravana. I
have read only portions of this text, which is written in a somewhat archaic
manner. Can get references of the printed edition of interested.

I have heard of several other 'Pakashastras' and 'Supashastras' but have not
seem them in print or in manuscript.

Regards

Vishal

----Original Message Follows----
From: Nikhil Rao <marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM>

I heard an interesting story I heard from Mr.
Nagarajan, a retired IAS officer who comes from a
family of smartha deshastha brahmins settled in
Thanjavur and who runs a
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Thu Jan 13 21:10:53 2000
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 16:10:53 -0500
Subject: History of indian cooking (RE: Etymology: sambar, the dish?)
Message-ID: <161227055240.23782.1222062929320634110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>
> Geeta Bharathan's  note remined me of something.
>
> I've never seen anything on the history of Indian cooking. Are
> there any resources? Is there a theory of Indian cooking? I know
> about the six rasas (but I'm not sure I know exact definitions).

Achaya has two books, one is a history of Indian cooking, and the other
a dictionary. The result is a very tantalizing one, for there is a lot
of information, interesting insights, but I, at least, got the feeling
that it did not make for a very coherent whole. There's lots of
interesting tidbits there, but there's plenty more to be done, I feel
(e.g., he does not address questions of etymology (eg sambar).

--Geeta




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Thu Jan 13 17:35:17 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 17:35:17 +0000
Subject: Vital Statistics/Aurangzeb
Message-ID: <161227055246.23782.1810438680906515566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> It is rather Aurangzeb who regarded himself as a
> Hijazi and not an Indian because he considered India a Darul Harb (a country
> of Kafirs at war with Islam) and was therefore a bandit.

How sincere was Aurangzeb with Islam itself ? Did he not use it merely to settle scores
as with his brothers or father. Or were they fallen into in-Islamic ways.
Why did he enjoy music and dance and keep his own prostitutes nearly all his life and
persecuted them at the fag end of his days to suit political weather.
Why did he listen to destructive-polytheistic songs in praise of Hindu gods like his
predecessors, specially when he was not in power?
Bharat Gupt




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Jan 14 01:30:42 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 18:30:42 -0700
Subject: History of indian cooking
In-Reply-To: <20000113234838.48763.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055244.23782.10905845785453171403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vishal Agarwal, Geeta Bharathan:

Can you give some detailed information about the books
(Pakadrapana, books by Achaya etc), so that we can try to
locate them?

My guess is that Pakashastras and Supashastras will be very
difficult to get.

Incidentally what are the main spices 'Pakadarpana' seems to
use? I would assume that it does not use cooking techniques
like baking (in a enclosed oven) or steaming.  I'm also
curious about use of onions and garlic. I know that in some
orthodox communites who are not vegetarian, these used
to be avoided.

Yashwant

When was cumin seed was introduced in India?




From jrasik at COLMEX.MX  Thu Jan 13 18:40:46 2000
From: jrasik at COLMEX.MX (Rasik Vihari Joshi)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 18:40:46 +0000
Subject: NEW SANSKRIT ANTHOLOGY
Message-ID: <161227055231.23782.3619168425846060117.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

   I am pleased to announce to all members of Indology list the publication
of the
   anthology of classical Sanskrit poetry, the Suvar-na-maalaa ,compilid by
Pandit
   Rampratap Shastri and edited and annotated by Rasik Vihari Joshi.This
anthology
   is published  in four volumes by Chaukhamba Sanskrit Pratisthan,Delhi and
it is
   avilable from them at the following address:

          38 U:A: Bungalow Road,Jawahar Nagar,
          Post Box No.2113
          Delhi-110007 India

   The antholgy consists of more than 1300 verses collected from the best
Sanskrit
   authors.

   Rasik Vihari Joshi




From pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH  Thu Jan 13 17:42:10 2000
From: pesch at INDOGER.UNIZH.CH (Peter Schreiner)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 18:42:10 +0100
Subject: New Publication
Message-ID: <161227055227.23782.5591868601384512149.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGYsts

This is to announce publication of the Proceedings of the
First Dubrovnik International Conference on the Sanskrit
Epics and Puranas (DICSEP) which was held in August 1997:


COMPOSING A TRADITION: CONCEPTS, TECHNIQUES AND
RELATIONSHIPS.
Edited by Mary Brockington and Peter Schreiner.
Zagreb: Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, 1999. 351
pp., USD 40,-

Please see below for the table of contents.


The book is distributed by

IBIS GRAFIKA d.o.o.
IV. Ravnice 25
HR-10000 Zagreb
Croatia

email: kkrnic at mudrac.ffzg.hr
tel/fax: +385-1-2332020

Orders may be sent to this address. Money order should be
sent to:
Zagrebacka banka, Zagreb
SWIFT ZABA HR 2X
2500-0984337

Advance payment is suggested for individuals (on the basis
of a proforma invoice); institutions (libraries, institutes,
etc.) may pay after receiving book and bill. USD 4,50 will
be added for postage (surface mail; postage for airmail is
between USD 10 and 15,50, the exact amount depending on the
country or continent of destination).

Munshiram Manoharlal is the Indian distributor.


===================================================

TABLE OF CONTENTS

(NOTE: Diacritics are coded by punctuation marks before the
corresponding letter.)

Preface p. VII
Abbreviations p. IX

Greg Bailey:
"Introductory remarks on future research on the Sanskrit
Epics and Pur-a.nas"   p. 1

I. CONCEPTS

Yaroslav Vassilkov:
"_K-alav-ada_ (the doctrine of Cyclical Time) in the
Mah-abh-arata and the concept of Heroic Didactics"   p. 17

Horst Brinkhaus:
"Cyclical Determinism and the development of the
_trim-urti_--doctrine"   p. 35

Georg von Simson:
"Narrated time and its relation to the supposed Year Myth in
the Mah-abh-arata"   p. 49

Minoru Hara:
"_-Atman_ in the Bhagavadg-it-a as interpreted by
/Sa;nkara"   p. 67

Francis Brassard:
"The concept of _buddhi_ in the Bhagavadg-it-a"   p. 91

II. TECHNIQUES OF COMPOSITION

Mary Brockington:
"The art of backwards composition: some narrative techniques
in V-alm-iki's R-am-aya.na"   p. 99

Mary Brockington:
"The process of growth of the R-am-aya.na: Why? and Why not?
a workshop report"   p. 111

John Brockington:
"Formulae in the R-am-aya.na -- an index of orality?"  p.
121

John Brockington:
"Issues involved in the shift from oral to written
transmission of the Epics: a workshop report"   p. 131

Renate S:ohnen-Thieme:
"On the composition of the Dy-utaparvan in the
Mah-abh-arata"   p. 139

Alf Hiltebeitel:
"Reconsidering Bh.rguization"   p. 155

Iwona Milewska:
"Two modern film versions of the Mah-abh-arata: similarities
and differences between an Indian and a European approach"
p. 169

III. RELATIONSHIPS

Greg Bailey:
"Intertextuality in the Pur-a.nas: a neglected element in
the study of Sanskrit Literature"   p. 179

Danielle Feller Jatavallabhula:
"The theft of the _soma_"   p. 199

Petteri Koskikallio:
"The horse sacrifice in the P-at-alakha.n.da of the
Padmapur-a.na"   p. 227

Klara G:onc Moa>canin:
"_N-a.tya_ versus the Epic Literature: some questions about
relationships between classical Indian theatre and the
Mah-abh-arata, R-am-aya.na, Hariva.m/sa and some
Pur-a.nas"   p. 245

Peter Schreiner:
"The Bh-agavatapur-a.na as model for the
Satsa;ngij-ivanam"   p. 257

List of Contributors p. 279

Index of Passages Cited p. 283

General Index p. 299

Mislav Jezic:
Summaries in Croatian  p. 317

Table of contents in Croatian  p. 350

========================================


Greetings and best wishes!

Peter Schreiner
Abt. fuer Indologie
University of Zuerich
CH-8001 Zuerich
Switzerland




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Thu Jan 13 21:30:35 2000
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 22:30:35 +0100
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b4a4bdc26ac6@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227055281.23782.10653809206485912882.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A few hours ago at dinner I expressed the guess that the word
sambar/saambaar is probably related to the Sanskrit word sa.mbhaara
'provisions, requisites, things required for any action or project,
assemblage' (Apte's dictionary, expanded by Gode etc.,  p. 1650; I would
expect other dictionaries too to contain the word). I just happened to read
that Professor Georg v. Simson has already pointed out attestations that
provide semantic support to my guess. His sa.mvara, as well as sa.mbala
'provision for a journey, viaticum,' in Apte p. 1648, could be later or
dialectal variations of sa.mbhara/sa.mbhaara.

-- ashok aklujkar




From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA  Thu Jan 13 22:36:19 2000
From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar)
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 00 23:36:19 +0100
Subject: Obituary for Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau
In-Reply-To: <200001141220.NAA45480@Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Message-ID: <161227055283.23782.11614678808991987536.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As Dr. Roland Steiner has written, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau was indeed a
unique scholar with impressive preparation in several diverse areas of
scholarship. I will miss him also as a very warm and caring individual. In
fields like Indology where the drive toward exactitude and high standards
of scholarship (which must be maintained) can easily make scholars
nitpickers and lead them to miss the forest for trees, Rau constantly
maintained an awareness of the larger and positive goals and of the
importance of nurturing the next generation of scholars. He was extremely
patient with good-hearted but not-so-sharp persons. Generous toward his
relatives, students and colleagues, I found him to be considerate toward
almost every person he met.  Not only an exceptionally accomplished
scholar, an exceptionally kind teacher and good human being has left us.

-- ashok aklujkar




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Fri Jan 14 10:35:15 2000
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 05:35:15 -0500
Subject: History of indian cooking
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIIPKOKJJJCMPMOJBAECPCGAA.malaiya@cs.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055250.23782.1399974551236736031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>
> Can you give some detailed information about the books
> (Pakadrapana, books by Achaya etc), so that we can try to
> locate them?

KT Achaya. Indian Food. A Historical Companion. Oxford India. 1994.
ISBN 019564416-6.

KT Achaya. A Historical Dictionary of Indian Food. Oxford India. 1998.
ISBN 019564254-6

> When was cumin seed was introduced in India?

According to Achaya (1998), it is mentioned "after 300 BC (Charaka,
Sushrutha, Kautilya) as ajaji, karavi and kuchika. Late Sanskrit has
jeeraka ...from the Persian zira."

--Geeta




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Fri Jan 14 14:01:35 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 09:01:35 -0500
Subject: Sanskrit Cookbooks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10001101055540.18455-100000@galaga.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055260.23782.57085280994207791.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I found one more Sanskrit cookbook at the University of Michigan library:

Search Request: T=BHOJANAKUTUHALA                         UMich Online
Catalog
 BOOK - Record 1 of 1 Entry Found                                    Brief
View

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Title:          Bhojanakutuhala / of Raghunatha.

 Published:      Trivandrum, Suranad Kunjan Pillai, University Manuscripts
                   Library, 1958-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  LOCATION:              CALL NUMBER:               STATUS:
  GRADUATE LIBRARY       X3 B 24                    Enter HOL 1 for
holdings

Best,
        There are also some medieval cookbooks written in Marathi.  I had
seen some of these many years ago.  Perhaps, Allen Thrasher knows more
about this stuff.


                                        Madhav Deshpande




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Jan 14 17:19:19 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 09:19:19 -0800
Subject: mitochondria and Indology (was Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence)
Message-ID: <161227055225.23782.2503633501002579092.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>
> Paul Kekai Manansala <kekai at JPS.NET> wrote:
>
> >_mtDNA Shows Signs of Paternal Influence_
> >        Evelyn Strauss
> >        Science 1999 December 24; 286: 2436a
> >
>  This recent discovery of paternal influence in hominid
> species mtDNA will have far-reaching consequences for anthropological
> conclusions based on genetic studies. Shows how science constantly forces
> one to challenge long-held assumptions.
>

Well, we will have to wait and see.  There still is no known mechanism
for recombination in mtDNA. The researchers came to their conclusions
because they found anomalies that could not be explained by maternal
inheritance.  However, you also can not directly link it to paternal
inheritance. That is an assumption.

Critics point out that the anomalies could be due to other factors
besides paternal influence.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Fri Jan 14 10:25:44 2000
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 11:25:44 +0100
Subject: Jani
Message-ID: <161227055248.23782.15767037100159163821.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lieber Peter,

wann kommt eigentlich Herr Jani zu Dir? Und soll ich ihm noch eine
Einladung schicken: wg. Visa?

Herzliche Gr?sse, auch an Maya,
Dein Axel

_____________________________________________________________

Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels             e-mail:
axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
Dept. of Classical Indology        phone:  ++49-6221-548817
South Asia Institute                    fax:       ++49-6221-546338
University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany
______________________________________________________________




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Fri Jan 14 18:31:42 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 11:31:42 -0700
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?/"kUTam"
In-Reply-To: <v03110700b4a4bdc26ac6@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227055266.23782.17252459866199298812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Sanskrit sambhaara.h means a collection of things for some purpose.
Sambar is a collection of dal and vegetables.

Which would remind one of kicharee (there is an old British
spelling for it that I forget) which is also a mixture. A full
meal generally includes a component of each of these three:
1. grain (rice/wheat), 2. pulses, beans and the like (protein)
and 3. vegetable/fruit. Sambar has the last two and  thus needs
rice, kicharee has the first two and thus needs vegetables to
complement it.

Regarding  "kUTam" (N. Ganesan), it seems that the Hindi verb
kUTanA (to pound) has come from tamil.

Yashwant

---
Georg v. Simson wrote:
sambar seems to be the same word as Sanskrit saMvara, which is found in
some Buddhist texts, i. e. DivyAvadAna and PrAtimokSasUtra. See Edgerton,
Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary, s.v. saMvara (3): "provisions of food,
... provisions for a meal. " In PrAtimokSasUtra (NiHsargikA pAtayantikA)
the term piNDapAta-saMvara occurs, and it is quite clear that this does not
mean a special dish, but probably something one needs to prepare the food a
monk would get in his almsbowl, perhaps the "ingredients"? An originally
general meaning of the term might later on have narrowed down to mean
special dishes.
---




From clee at TITAN.IWU.EDU  Fri Jan 14 17:33:34 2000
From: clee at TITAN.IWU.EDU (christopher lee)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 11:33:34 -0600
Subject: behind mud walls website
Message-ID: <161227055262.23782.13305343593957512682.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Forwarded for Susan Wadley (sswadley at maxwell.syr.edu)

"In the 1970s, Don and Jean Johnson worked with Charlotte Wiser on a filld
strip/slide show on the village Karimpur, of Behind Mud Walls fame. That
slide show is now available as a web site (with a 1990s addition
forthcoming) at

http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/southasiacenter/karimpur/

A new edition of Behind Mud Walls will be out later this spring from
California , with a chapter on the village in 1998."

christopher lee
department of religion
illinois wesleyan university


christopher lee
department of religion
illinois wesleyan university




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Fri Jan 14 11:28:21 2000
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 12:28:21 +0100
Subject: Jani
Message-ID: <161227055252.23782.13156355905977893862.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry for mailing a private message through the list! The return buttom
is somehow seducing.
A.M.

> _____________________________________________________________
>
> Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels             e-mail:
> axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
> Dept. of Classical Indology        phone:  ++49-6221-548817
> South Asia Institute                    fax:       ++49-6221-546338
> University of Heidelberg
> Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
> 69120 Heidelberg
> Germany
> ______________________________________________________________

--

______________________________________________________________

Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels             e-mail:
axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
Dept. of Classical Indology        phone:  ++49-6221-548817
South Asia Institute                    fax:       ++49-6221-546338
University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany
______________________________________________________________




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Fri Jan 14 12:07:04 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 13:07:04 +0100
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?
In-Reply-To: <387E246E.41C76D62@life.bio.sunysb.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055254.23782.6229830243227376878.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Not along lines of most "Indological" questions, but there may be
>interesting issue lurking here, so I hope you will take the query seriously.
>
>I haven't been able to find the word in the two Tamil dictionaries I
>have, nor in anything on line. The dish is common in Karnataka, Andhra
>Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu, but the word seems to be nonexistent (it seems
>to be more commonly used in Tamil)! What is the origin of the word? Does
>it have anything to do with the SE Asian 'sambal' (which is more a
>condiment, like a chutney than a 'curry' like sambar)?
>
>Thanks for any leads.
>
>--Geeta

sambar seems to be the same word as Sanskrit saMvara, which is found in
some Buddhist texts, i. e. DivyAvadAna and PrAtimokSasUtra. See Edgerton,
Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary, s.v. saMvara (3): "provisions of food,
... provisions for a meal. " In PrAtimokSasUtra (NiHsargikA pAtayantikA)
the term piNDapAta-saMvara occurs, and it is quite clear that this does not
mean a special dish, but probably something one needs to prepare the food a
monk would get in his almsbowl, perhaps the "ingredients"? An originally
general meaning of the term might later on have narrowed down to mean
special dishes.

Regards

Georg v. Simson




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Fri Jan 14 12:21:34 2000
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 13:21:34 +0100
Subject: Obituary for Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau
Message-ID: <161227055255.23782.15664713001285045265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The world of Indology has lost a unique scholar in Prof. Dr.
Wilhelm Rau who passed away on December 29, 1999 after a
protracted illness. The Department of Indology in Marburg from
where he retired regrets his death deeply. He was born on
February 15, 1922. Below is a short academic biography taken
from the homepage of  our Department:
        http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~indology/

Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau was the Director of the Department of
Indology in Marburg from December 1957 till 1988. Trained in
the usual tradition of German classical studies he directed his
philological acumen towards material related to realia (like
weaving, pottery, metal instruments and burning glass) of Vedic
culture and especially to traditional Indian Sanskrit grammar,
winning praise especially for his work on Bhart.rhari. His
academic activities also included editorship of the Orientalische
Literaturzeitung, as chairman of the commission for Indology of
the Mainz Academy in the section for Arts and Social Sciences,
he was responsible for the Critical Pali Dictionary.

>?From the members of the staff
Department of Indology
University of Marburg
Germany




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Fri Jan 14 12:38:19 2000
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 13:38:19 +0100
Subject: History of indian cooking
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIIPKOKJJJCMPMOJBAECPCGAA.malaiya@cs.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055258.23782.5685370173612755929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On 13 Jan 00, at 18:30, Yashwant Malaiya wrote:

> Can you give some detailed information about the books
> (Pakadrapana, books by Achaya etc), so that we can try to
> locate them?

Heike GILBERT: ``Das Paakadarpa.na, ein altes indisches
Kochbuch". Inaugural-Dissertation zur Erlangung der
Doktorwuerde des Fachbereichs Aussereuropaeische Sprachen
und Kulturen der Philipps-Universitaet Marburg. Marburg 1995,
215 pp. [Ph.D. thesis, printed in a mimeographed form in a
limited number of copies.]




From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM  Fri Jan 14 22:51:58 2000
From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 14:51:58 -0800
Subject: History of indian cooking (RE: Etymology: sambar, the dish?)
Message-ID: <161227055274.23782.4212004116853518490.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Nikhil Rao wrote:

> I heard an interesting story I heard from Mr. Nagarajan, a retired IAS
> officer who comes from a family of smartha deshastha brahmins settled
> in Thanjavur and who runs a small math originally stablished by
> Samarth Ramadas in Thanjavur. According to him Sambar, was coined
> after the Maratha prince Sambhaji who invented(?) the dish from the
> tamil kuzhambu. May I dont remember the invented part correctly but
> his account did connect Sambar to Sambhaji!

I don't know the etymological origin of saambaar,  but it does seem to
have been used in the Tamil region only since Maratha times,  according
to a note that was published in a popular Tamil magazine a while ago.

In its usage as a general term in Tamil,  as in saambaar-rasam,  it has
increasingly replaced kuzhampu over the decades,  particularly in urban
areas.  But in many families,  saambaar is still restricted to the
sludge made with onions  ;-)  while kuzhampu is used for  similar
preparations with other vegetables.

That sambaar was originally a specific term seems to have merit,  since
once cannot imagine it replacing kuzhampu even now in a whole host of
dishes such as vattakkuzhampu (vaRRakkuzhampu to be precise),  milaku
kuzhampu,  mOr kuzhampu etc.  Maybe,  the amount of tamarind and curry
powder used in vattakkuzhampu etc was too much for the Marathi palate to
handle (?),  hence it was reduced and/or moderated by the use of tuvar
daal,  and onions with their acaTTu-tittippu (semi-sweet) quality...
whence sambaar !

-Srini.




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Fri Jan 14 18:45:46 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 18:45:46 +0000
Subject: Sanskrit Cookbooks
Message-ID: <161227055270.23782.3874941860079935450.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have done some work on early Buddhist Kriya Tantras such as the
Susuddhikara and so forth which give fairly extensive lists of Indian
foods and dishes used as naivedya offerings.  Unfortunately these
texts only survive in Chinese and Tibetan translation -- with the
names of the foods usually transcribed for obvious reasons. I have
managed to restore a fair number of the Skt terms for these foods but
not all given i) the textual corruptions in Tibetan and ii) the
problems of Chinese phonetic transcriptions of Skt.
However, these materials must be a very useful source for information
about Indian foods during the 7th and 8th centuries.   I have also
seen some Chinese commentaries on Tantras which describe the manner of
preparing various foods for the benefit of the Chinese readers.   I do
have some queries for which I shall seek subscribers assistance at a
later date.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 14 17:48:57 2000
From: srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM (Kailash Srivastava)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 18:48:57 +0100
Subject: Untouchability
Message-ID: <161227055264.23782.4378746927001431331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

When and how did it originate in the Indian society? Does it exist in other society or culture?

Kailash Srivastava



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000114/2c3ccf51/attachment.htm>

From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Fri Jan 14 19:34:01 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 20:34:01 +0100
Subject: SV: Untouchability
Message-ID: <161227055268.23782.8003841562089339252.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Kailash Srivastava [SMTP:srivastava at OPERAMAIL.COM] skrev 14. januar 2000 18:49:
> When and how did it originate in the Indian society? Does it exist in other
> society or culture?

I don't know of many cases that are similar. However, I believe that in Europe,
the executioner and his helpers used to have a status not unlike
untouchability. They tended to be separated from the rest of society until
fairly recently. Nowadays, former hangmen run pubs (at least in England).

Workmen who emptied toilets in towns and cities also seem to have had something
of the untouchable about them. I have heard such men of the older generation
complain that when they were young, people wouldn't eat with them or even greet
them. That hardly applies any more. This kind of work is now much more
machine-driven, and noone cares about who does it. Human dirt, like most other
dirt, can be washed away with soap.

In old Norway (say, some 2-300 years ago), there was a difference between
honest (aerlig) and dishonest (uaerlig) status. Honesty was a quality you had,
and which you could loose, for instance by committing a crime. If you had lost
your honesty, you could be put to work that honest people wouldn't do - and
weren't required to -  such as helping the hangman or hauling away carcasses.
But there were never such a thing as inherited untouchability here, and I don't
think in any other European country.

Actors used to be treated as dishonest people until some three centuries ago
and were buried outside the churchyard. This changed in the eighteenth century,
in England before it happened in France.

I also believe that Japan has a group of people that has been treated pretty
much like untouchables -  they are now very vocal about their rights. But I
leave that to a japanologist.

Best regards,

Lars Martin Foss


Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE  Fri Jan 14 20:43:50 2000
From: Ursula.Graefe at T-ONLINE.DE (Graefe)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 21:43:50 +0100
Subject: Untouchability in Japan
Message-ID: <161227055272.23782.11081380978956884034.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list,
in feudal Japan society was divided into four classes. The fourth consisted
of the so-called "eta" (which is written with 2 charakters meaning "much dirt").
Etymologically it is supposed to be related to the word "etori" which in the
early middle ages was applied to people, who killed cattle and horses to feed
hunting falcons and dogs, or who dealt with meat or hides of cattle and horses.
In Shintoismus, the native Japanese religion, as well as in Buddhism people
engaged in this kind of work were considered impure. They were also called
"hinin" - "non-persons". During the 17th and 18th centuries they were
increasingly stigmatised and forced to live in ghettos and closed communities.
Still in 1859 a Japanese court declared that an eta was worth only "one seventh"
 of a "real" Japanese. In 1871 though the eta were finally declared as equal and
 were to be called "new citizens". Nowadays they are euphemistically called
"burakumin" ("villagers") and still are subject to discrimination. In Japan
reputedly exist "black lists" of people of burakumin descent, so they tend to
marry among each other and still seem to suffer from a lot of social
disadvantages.
Regards Ursula Graefe

P.S. By the way, beef is only eaten by humans in Japan since the late 19th
century. (Or so it is claimed.)




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Fri Jan 14 23:11:51 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 23:11:51 +0000
Subject: Untouchability in Japan
Message-ID: <161227055276.23782.17115448249709600012.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Ursula Graefe wrote:

> Dear list,
> in feudal Japan society was divided into four classes. The fourth
consisted
> of the so-called "eta" (which is written with 2 charakters meaning
"much
>  dirt").
> Etymologically it is supposed to be related to the word "etori"
which in the
> early middle ages was applied to people, who killed cattle and
horses to
> feed hunting falcons and dogs, or who dealt with meat or hides of
cattle
> and horses. In Shintoismus (sic), the native Japanese religion, as
well as
> in Buddhism people engaged in this kind of work were considered
impure.

This is only half the story, in my view.   There is evidence that the
people who eventually came to be classed as "eta" were originally
orphans and other indigent people who were adopted by Buddhist temples
in the early medieval (Heian) period and lived on or near temple
precincts.   Japanese society at that time was obsessed with "taboo"
or "ritual impurity" (imi) -- anything that represented or gave rise
to a disharmony in nature was a potential source of impurity -- even
things like cutting down trees, building new houses, childbirth, and
of course, anything connected with death.   Ordinary people,
especially the wealthy classes, were terrified of the disharmony or
"pollution" believed to be caused by such events and needed special
practitioners who were able through their possession of special powers
to cope with and deal with such events without harm to themselves.
Thus such tasks fell to the "eta" who were thus not considered
"unclean" themselves but were regarded with awe by ordinary people.
Contemporary literature does not indicate that they were held to be
"untouchable" or "inferior" but that they were people endowed with
special almost mystical powers.  Sadly as Japanese society began to
evolve towards feudalism with the rise of the military class in the
late Heian period, many groups in society including women and the
"eta" were marginalized and, in the case of the latter, demonized.

Best wishes,
Stephen




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jan 15 04:25:09 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 00 23:25:09 -0500
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055278.23782.2792032301460294366.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to know if there was any famous lokAyata exponent living
in/visting Tamilnadu in the ninth century. Thanks in advance.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jan 15 05:59:31 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 00:59:31 -0500
Subject: :-) Happy Pongal & Solution for India's language problem :-)
Message-ID: <161227055279.23782.14183418594820586345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Happy Pongal everybody. On this Tamil festival day, I would like the members
to consider the following.

Based on the recent and past discussions in Indology, I offer a solution to
the language problem in India. Given the multilingual ability of Indians, we
should make Tamil also an official/link language of India as well as a
classical language.

Why give this status to Tamil? Tamil has the least number of letters. If even
that is a problem, all Indian alphabets can be romanized. Since many
non-Tamils already show interest in the Tamil texts like Tirukkural,
Kambaramayanam, etc., and the zrIvaiSNava philosophy treats Sanskrit and
Tamil as equals, having Sanskrit and Classical Tamil as classical languages
is justified.  Then, it is only natural their descendants, Hindi and modern
Tamil, should be link languages. Also, as even Vishalji would agree, Tamil
had been exceptional in maintaining a language-based identity and Tamilians
have always been the main ones opposing Hindi. By co-opting Tamil this way,
the opposition to Hindi will lose its steam. We do not have to worry about
the extent of Asoka's or Aurangazeb's empire. (Also, north Indians can enjoy
the devotional hymns of AzvArs and nAyan2mars in the original, unmediated by
English.) Since north and east Indians have no problem with Hindi anyway, we
should be only worried about the reaction to Tamil, especially from the
south.

Here I do not think Malayalis will object very much. Apart from shared
history, almost every Malayalam movie has a Tamil character whose dialogue is
not subtitled. In a video store where I check out Malayalam movies, I find
Malayalis checking out more Tamil movies. As for Telugus, unlike some former
Indology members, Rama Rao, the founder of Telugu Desam Party liked and spoke
Tamil fluently. In the past, his house in Madras used to be a popular spot
for Andhra tourists visiting Madras. Many Tamils thought he was a Tamil and
that Lord Krishna looked just like him. I heard even Naidu knows Tamil.
Moreover politically, Tamilnadu and Andhra have collaborated a lot in the
recent years. Also knowing some Tamil, Telugus will be able to enjoy the
AzvAr hymns in the Tirupati temple rituals.

That leaves Kannadigas. There we have a problem. But even there we can point
out the advantage of having Kannadigas learning Tamil rather than the other
way around. If Tamils learn Kannada, the Tamil influx into Bangalore will
increase much more. On the other hand, if Kannadigas learn Tamil, they can
come and settle in Tamilnadu and get jobs in the growing software industry in
Chennai. That should satisfy Kannadigas.

May be I should address the case of Maharashtra after all. Shiv Sena's
resentment of Tamil immigrants is well-known. As I pointed out, Tamil
identity is based on language use. Take the case of Shivaji Rao Gaikwad, a
Maharashtrian and erstwhile Bangalore bus conductor. As Rajnikant, the film
actor, he is the kingmaker of Tamilnadu politics. So if Maharashtrians learn
Tamil, sky is the limit for them in Tamilnadu. Moreover, they can come and
visit their brethern settled around Tanjore from the days of Maratha rule. We
also have to consider the advantage for Gujaratis. They can link up with
their long-lost relatives, the Saurashtras settled in large numbers in
Tamilnadu. For a very long time, a Saurashtra, T. M. Soundararajan, was the
leading playback singer of Tamil films.

What about Sanskritists, the mainstay of Indology? Many Sanskritists wish
they had learnt Tamil also. At least now, they can look forward to future
Indologists with a good knowledge of Tamil. And they do not have to trust
what guys like me say about Tamil texts.

But what is in it for BJP? As you may know, Tamilnadu Chief Minister has
requested Vajpayee to declare year 2000 as the year of Tamil. By making Tamil
also as a link/official language as well as a Classical language, BJP will
immediately strengthen the ruling coalition. BJP can satisfy the Hindu
aspirations by implementing what the zaiva and vaiSNava bhakti saints wanted
-- parity between Sanskrit and Tamil. They can also achieve the strategic
goal of coming to power in Tamilnadu by outdoing the Dravidian parties. Of
course, for this, they will have Tamil along with Hindi for all official
transactions. This means even Air India, and Indian Airlines will have to
include announcements in Tamil. However, by doing that they can compete with
Singapore Airlines which is patronized by many Tamils.

Internationally, this will have important consequences. Seeing the position
of Tamil in India, Sri Lanka will make Tamil an official language also. That
will mean the end of civil war in that country. Further all Indians will feel
quite at home visiting  Singapore and Sri Lanka where Tamil enjoys some
official status. They can also visit Thailand's royal ceremonies where Tamil
hymns are part of the ritual. Indian government can cut down on the security
expenditure for people like Jayalalita.

Non-Indian Indologists tired of Dravidian-IA conflict can pursue other topics
without rancor on the list and off the list. Indology will also benefit from
a collaboration of  Tamil and Sanskrit studies. All in all, it will be a
win-win situation for everybody.

Oh, I forgot an important thing. With Chennai being the leading center of
Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music, non-Tamils who want daughters-in-law
trained in these arts, will be able to communicate with them easily. But
Tamils would like to make sure this is not a north-south hypergamy. Like the
non-Tamil Rashtrakuta princess marrying the Tamil Chola, north Indian females
should be given in marriage to Tamil  grooms also.

I request Vishalji and Bharatji to convince the Indian Government of the
merits of this solution. :-) :-)

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU  Sat Jan 15 17:23:14 2000
From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 12:23:14 -0500
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?
In-Reply-To: <v04003a02b4a3eff6a84d@[207.23.94.71]>
Message-ID: <161227055287.23782.5232623067336390243.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Ashok Aklujkar wrote:

> A few hours ago at dinner I expressed the guess that the word
> sambar/saambaar is probably related to the Sanskrit word sa.mbhaara
> 'provisions, requisites, things required for any action or project,
> assemblage' (Apte's dictionary, expanded by Gode etc.,  p. 1650; I would
> expect other dictionaries too to contain the word). I just happened to read
> that Professor Georg v. Simson has already pointed out attestations that
> provide semantic support to my guess. His sa.mvara, as well as sa.mbala
> 'provision for a journey, viaticum,' in Apte p. 1648, could be later or
> dialectal variations of sa.mbhara/sa.mbhaara.

This sounds reasonable, and could explain why it is usually written
"saambhaar". In my Tamil-centred way, I have thought of the use of "bh" as
a northern Indian mis-transliteration of a Tamil word (a sort of reverse
of the southern transliteration, "dhal")

I thought it was a Tamil word because the same preparation (containing
tamarind, tuvar/arhar dal, vegetables, spices) is "huli" in Kannada, and
"pulusu" in Telugu.  Both seem to be general terms (cf. Tamil
kuLampu/kuzhampu), not specific to the dish--or am I wrong here?

In any case, if the name "saambhaar" is derived from Sanskrit, then the
hypothesis that both name and dish were introduced via Mahratha or other
influence (as mentioned by other posters) seems reasonable.

The facts that "saambhaar" does not feature in many Tamil dictionaries (I
did find it in the Kriya publication on modern Tamil), and that the
default dish at the main meal in Tamilnadu tends to be "puLi" (tamarind)
kuLampu without the dal, might be further support of this hypothesis.

It would be very interesting to know of the usage of this word in the
various southern areas and languages and their dialects--what is it called
in Udipi, for instance?

--Geeta




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jan 15 18:06:41 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 13:06:41 -0500
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055289.23782.14940836817533922059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/10/00 7:21:31 PM Central Standard Time,
ramakris at EROLS.COM writes:

> The teacher shivasoman is never described as a Cambodian, but as the
>  guru of an Indian king who settled in Cambodia.

R. C. Majumdar writes, "But by far the most important instance of this kind
is furnished by that of zivasoma, the grandson of a king, maternal uncle of
another king, and the guru of a third king, Indravaraman. An inscription of
this king found at Prasat Kandal Dom contains the following verse about
zivasoma:

yenAdhItAni zAstraNi bhagavacchaGkarAhvayaAt |
nizzeSasUrimUrddhAlimAlAlIDhAGghripaGkajAt ||

It means that zivasoma learnt the zAstras from bhagavat zaGkara whose lotus
feet were touched by the heads of all the sages. The French scholar Coedes,
who edited this inscription, rightly conjectured that the reference is
undoubtedloy to the famous zaGkarAcArya of India and the word bhagavat lends
strong support to this. But the real importance of this inscription from
Indian point of view was missed by him. For, as I showed more than forty
years ago, this inscription furnishes the only authoritative evidence of the
date of zaGkarAcArya, so far known to us. As Indravarman ruled from 877 to
889 A.D., his guru zivasoma may be assumed to have visited zaGkarAcArya about
the middle of the ninth century A.D." (Study of Sanskrit in South-East Asia,
p. 19)

> That aside, I don't even see the point of this whole exercise. Currently
sha.nkara is
>  supposed to have died at 820CE (majority opinion).

On the contrary, the discussion has an important point. Even though the
majority opinion may be 788-820, the current trend seems to date zaGkara ca.
700 AD. According to Elliot, "both zaGkaraH and maNDanaH may well have lived
in the late 7th century to early eight century." So, it is worthwhile
exploring the issue to see if we can arrive at a better date satisfying all
the data.

Based on the current discussion so far, the only date that seems to be
fixable is vAcaspati mizra in the 10th century. I shall defer to Sanskrit
experts as to whether we can arrive at a similar certain date for kamalazIla.
If the name vikramAditya is not really relevant as Vidyasankar says, then a
ninth century date can satisfy both Cambodian and Tamil data.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 15 23:10:51 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 18:10:51 -0500
Subject: Taittiriya Samhita
Message-ID: <161227055291.23782.16994099143602927006.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I need a sanskrit text of the Rudram (Namakam and Chamakam)to cross  check a
chanting book of this hymn for misprints.  The introduction to the chanting
book identifies it as the 1st and 7th chapter respectively of the 4th
section of the Taittiriya Samhita.  From the introduction it also sounds as
if the original chanting book was composed directly from an oral recitation.
    Can someone tell me:

1) Within the tradition of the Black Yajur Veda are there sub-schools with
there own textual variations? Are there textual variations of the Rudram
within this/these schools ?

2) Is there a critical edition or failing that a good edition of the
Taittiriya Samhita or of just the Rudram portion? The Taittiriya Samhita of
Black Yajur Veda (10 Vols.) by A. Mahadeva Sastri and K. Rangacharya appears
to be readily available.  Is this a good edition?
I only need the Rudram portion.

Many thanks,



Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville New York
12747 USA
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE  Sun Jan 16 02:17:04 2000
From: boudalfa at STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Heike Boudalfa)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 18:17:04 -0800
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227055285.23782.10372175196507179893.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,
I am trying to find a book, which I saw in the Hare Krsna Temple in Mumbai.
Unfortunately I don't remember the exact title or the name of the publisher
- maybe someone can help me with the details?
It is an illustrated de luxe version of the Mahabharata with lots of
colorful, beautiful  modern illustrations in the typical indian style
(nothing like the comic versions you sometimes find). The whole book was
quite expensive (around 80 Dollars or so).
Thank you for help. Heike Boudalfa




From OLES56 at AOL.COM  Sun Jan 16 01:00:54 2000
From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 20:00:54 -0500
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227055293.23782.5618823333220531456.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Heike BoudalfaI  : it is an illustrated de luxe version of the Mahabharata
with lots of
colorful, beautiful  modern illustrations in the typical indian style
(nothing like the comic versions you sometimes find). The whole book was
quite expensive (around 80 Dollars or so).


Dear Heike ,
i would easily pay 80.Us $ for an illustrated version of the Mahabharata ,
but I wonder are you sure it was only one volume ? It has got to be very
condenced . If you find info on this let me know please ,I would appreciate
it.
Helen O. Giunta




From SSRVJ at AOL.COM  Sun Jan 16 03:15:58 2000
From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 22:15:58 -0500
Subject: Taittiriya Samhita
Message-ID: <161227055295.23782.16584876828431501701.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 01/15/2000 6:11:46 PM EST, harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM writes:

<< a good edition of the Taittiriya Samhita or of just the Rudram portion?  >>
A very good edition of sri.Rudra Praznam by "ANNA"(Both Namakam and chamakam)
in Devanagari Lipi-with recitation markings(Anudhattham--Swaritham--Dheerka
Swaitham) is available.Ofcourse for the sake of Tamil devotees -Tamil Word by
wordTranslation is also given.May be you may ignore that as you are
interestes only in the Sanskrit Text in Nagari Lipi.---It is  printed and
published by Sri Ramakrishna Matam,Mylapore,Chennai-600 004(INDIA).The Indian
Price for abook of 296 pages is only Indian Rupees 35/=(75 U.S.A.copper
pennies)-In U.S.A..Hindu Temples sell for 3/=U.S.Dollars.It would not cover
even the printing charges.But sri Ramakrishna Order do it as a Religious
Service.All over the world there are 170 sri.Ramakrishna Vedhanta Centres are
there.They may arrange to get you.The same book also gives sri.Rudra Krama
Paatam and Lahu Nyaasam and Mahan Nyaasam(Sri Bhodhaayana Mahan Nyaasa
Kramam)---all in Sanskrit -Nagari Lipi with.Recitation markings.---A GOOD
EDITION




From clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jan 16 03:39:36 2000
From: clopez at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (clopez)
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 00 22:39:36 -0500
Subject: Taittiriya Samhita
In-Reply-To: <20000115231051.21428.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055296.23782.16338226730267616436.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK]On Behalf Of Harry
> Spier
> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 6:11 PM
> To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK
> Subject: Taittiriya Samhita
>
>
> Dear list members,
>
> I need a sanskrit text of the Rudram (Namakam and Chamakam)to
> cross  check a
> chanting book of this hymn for misprints.  The introduction to
> the chanting
> book identifies it as the 1st and 7th chapter respectively of the 4th
> section of the Taittiriya Samhita.  From the introduction it also
> sounds as
> if the original chanting book was composed directly from an oral
> recitation.
>     Can someone tell me:
>
> 1) Within the tradition of the Black Yajur Veda are there sub-schools with
> there own textual variations? Are there textual variations of the Rudram
> within this/these schools ?
>
> 2) Is there a critical edition or failing that a good edition of the
> Taittiriya Samhita or of just the Rudram portion? The Taittiriya
> Samhita of
> Black Yajur Veda (10 Vols.) by A. Mahadeva Sastri and K.
> Rangacharya appears
> to be readily available.  Is this a good edition?
> I only need the Rudram portion.
>
> Many thanks,
>
>
>
> Harry Spier
> 371 Brickman Rd.
> Hurleyville New York
> 12747 USA
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA  Sun Jan 16 11:12:34 2000
From: BLQM at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (GHOSE,LYNKEN,MR)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 06:12:34 -0500
Subject: jainism
Message-ID: <161227055302.23782.9629475316531234345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indology Members:

I was wondering if anyone knows of a Jain group that I could contact
which could give me some information about Jain practice. I would prefer
a group in North America - if possible both email and phone. I am
asking because I will be presenting a class on Jainism next week and
need more concrete information than is in the textbooks.

Thank you,

Lynken Ghose
McGill University




From lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jan 16 06:58:53 2000
From: lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN (lpp)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 12:28:53 +0530
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227055299.23782.3356171379775120320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

certainly i would also be intereseted in knowing the details about this
mahabharata edition
-----Original Message-----
From: Helen Oles Giunta <OLES56 at AOL.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Sunday, January 16, 2000 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Illustrated Mahabharata


>Heike BoudalfaI  : it is an illustrated de luxe version of the Mahabharata
>with lots of
>colorful, beautiful  modern illustrations in the typical indian style
>(nothing like the comic versions you sometimes find). The whole book was
>quite expensive (around 80 Dollars or so).
>
>
>Dear Heike ,
>i would easily pay 80.Us $ for an illustrated version of the Mahabharata ,
>but I wonder are you sure it was only one volume ? It has got to be very
>condenced . If you find info on this let me know please ,I would appreciate
>it.
>Helen O. Giunta
>




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Jan 16 15:03:03 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 15:03:03 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055301.23782.14318396490913981378.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

How does one conclude that all references to as'va in the R.gveda connote a
horse? S.B.Roy notes that the word as'va in the very early R.gvedic times
meant an ass. (S.B.Roy, 1976, Prehistoric Lunar Astronomy, New Delhi,
Institute of Chronology). So, while expounding on the early domesticated
'horse' and the date of the Veda, one has to be sure if the textual reference
connotes an ass which is also of the horse family though with a braying call
[Equus hemionus (Asia)--similar to the ones depicted on a Sumerian chariot or
ratha]. Santali: asen = to lead about, to carry aboput, to conduct, to tend.
The Concise Oxford Dict. says: ORIGIN OE assa, from a Celtic word rel. to
Welsh asyn, Breton azen, based on L. asinus.

On planets and celestial keys, the latest work is by Prof. B.G. Sidharth,
1999, The Celestial Key to the Vedas: Discovering the origins of the world's
oldest civilization, Rochester, Vermont, Inner Traditions. "The twin As'vins
denote the planets Mercury and Venus..." For those interested, some excerpts
are at: http://sarasvati.listbot.com
Click on "View the Archive" and the Message# is 86.

Dr. S. Kalyanaraman


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From jai at FLEX.COM  Mon Jan 17 02:11:14 2000
From: jai at FLEX.COM (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 16:11:14 -1000
Subject: jainism
Message-ID: <161227055314.23782.7887710098005852345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaste, an article appears in the TOI today:

Moving Up and Down The Serpent's Tail

By Amrit Gangar

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/17edit5.htm

Jai Maharaj
jai at mantra.com
Om Shanti




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jan 16 22:25:24 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 17:25:24 -0500
Subject: origins of Pali
In-Reply-To: <v04220802b4a1dd25f1d0@[212.250.68.6]>
Message-ID: <161227055306.23782.8863235353645701254.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am afraid, we have to agree to disagree on many points.
I had no time due to foreign visitors, but today I took a brief look at the
books I brought home from my office and to gain some impression of the
'situation on the ground' from DC Sircar's Selcted Inscriptions.
(Unfortunately I forgot Pischel, Geiger, v. Hinueber, so again only from
memory)

A.

Anyhow, even with just Bloch's Asoka inscriptions, with Mehendale's  Asokan
grammar, and DC Sircar's Selected Inscriptions, it quickly becomes clear
that the MIA 'mess' can be sorted out along broad lines. To reach safer
ground, however, instead of translating the Gita (etc.) once again, a team
of scholars should finally set about to edit and  index the ten thousand(s)
of Middle Indo-Aryan inscriptions from all over South Asia ...
As I mentioned last time,  we have to distinguish clearly between Vedic
(with some early MIA influences, such as jyotiS RV, nApita Satapatha Br.),
early *MIA,  Pali as we have it now, Asokan MIA and post-Asokan MIA, plus
the 'classical' Prakrits (and of course MIA influence on Epic, Buddh. Skt.,
etc.)
 Since we have early and exhaustive materials only for Vedic, Pali, and
post-Asokan MIA, and since Asoka's inscr. take a special place in all of
this, some circumspection, as you also plead, is indeed advisable.

I leave out many of the details now and concentrate on the main points
since we do not seem to agree on them and further discussion is pointless
without such agreement.

The real problem is of course that of Asoka's language, the Magadhan
chancellery style, within the framework of the other really existing MIA
dialects at the time.  And the  transposition of Asoka's edicts into local
dialects.
You maintain that
>> The point at issue is whether forms such as the nominative in -o are
>>geographically an exclusively western feature. And in fact they are not.
>>The inscription of Khaaravela does not have either the nominative
>>singular in -e nor the use of l for r. It is not alone in
this.
Subsequent inscriptions from Western India in the century after A'soka do
not closely resemble the language of Girnaar. Conversely the inscriptions
from Bhaarhut and Saa~ncii have elements in common with Pali which are not
found in the inscriptions of A'soka. <<

But that puts the horses behind Asoka's chariot:
Rather, we have to look for local items in Asoka's texts which do NOT
conform to his Patna language, not the other way round.

*   1st, we have to describe what Asoka's language is like. Not too
difficult. And post-Asokan inscriptions in the Magadha area confirm his
Magadhi bias:
the famous nom. -e , l for r, etc. etc.  <note, below, and cf. the
Bangladesh inscr.>

* 2nd, we have to see how this language gets changed in other parts of the
subcontinent. The starting point should be Asoka's own language, then the
(partial) deviations from it, i.e. adaptation to local dialects in the NW,
Saurastra etc.,  and then, comparison with the actual local dialect as
evident from the slightly  later inscriptions.
As has long been observed, the Asoka's official Patna style is found from
the Yamuna to South India (summary in C. Caillat's paper in her Dialectes,
Paris 1989: 414 sqq.; cf. again in "Inside the texts", mentioned last time).

Colette Caillat, Dialectes dans les litt?ratures indo- aryennes. Actes du
Colloque International ... 16-18 Septembre 1986.  Paris  (Coll?ge de
France, Institut de Civilisation Indienne) 1989

And, it has always been claimed that the NW, Saurastra
(and now Afghanistan) differ (Caillat p. 416: "negligence of Kalsi,
hybridization of Mansehra,  Sanskritization at Girnar").
It is, indeed, not very surprising that Asoka's Orissan or even the NW
Mansehra inscriptions have Magadhisms,  it rather is surprising how far
*local* elements have penetrated into the various versions of edicts in the
non-Patna style ("eastern") inscriptions. Thus, we should not  be
surprised, e.g. that Orissa so closely matches Patna, and then point out
that post-Asokan Orissa inscription do not...  NB: the descr. of 'real'
Oriya MIA is another point, still to be done, cf. below.

3rd. For Afghanistan (idiomatic Aramaic and Greek, not a literal
translation, see Caillat's summary, p. 415) these deviations are not
surprising. But they are, when we look into the transpositions made into
other MIA dialects, such as the NW (pre-Gandhari) one. (NB: the official
language of the Persian empire was Aramaic, so the NW MIA dialect does not
count as 'local admin. background' language).

4th.
When we progress in this fashion, the 'rough' dialect map basically stands
as those 'conservative' people, Pischel, v. Hinueber etc., have sketched
them for the past 100++ years.

*A NW dialect,  (e.g., nom. -e),  the later Gandhari
*A Central dialect, (nom -o) the later  Sauraseni
*An eastern dialect, (nom -e) the later Magadhi
*A Southwestern / Southern dialect, (nom.-o),  in part: the later Maharastri
(unfortunately I cannot quote from the latest summary here,v. Hinueber's 1986)

Some details ad 2:
Here, it is C. Caillat (her paper in: Dialectes dans les litteratures
indiennes, Paris 1989) who takes, at least in my view, a sensible middle
path: after reviewing the arguments pro/contra "eastern"/western dialect
features in Asoka, she discusses those which are peculiar for the NW,
Saurastra,  etc., i.e. where they diverge from Asoka's dialect.

It is only such *local* forms that should be compared to the early
post-Asokan inscriptions. (In general, we will have to observe, just as in
Asoka, the political motivations and other historical details behind many
of these inscriptions, note, e.g. Damsteegt's discussion of various types
of 'foreign' (= outside of local area) influences in many of the Mathura
and other inscriptions; Th. Damsteegt, Epigraphical Hybrid Sanskrit, Leiden
1978.)

Unfortunately, there still is (in the following selection) no evidence of
what exactly happened in northern Bihar, exactly the area we really would
like to hear about (but at least, nearby, Kanishka's partly Sanskritized
Sarnath inscr., Sircar no. 37-39) has r forms)

Some details, to be used as evidence,  from Sircar's (post-Asokan goup of)
inscriptions  include:

1.  Nom. masc.   -o/-e:
Eastern UP:   Kosam (Allahabad) inscr., Sircar no. 10 A:  gahapattiko
Magadha area:  Patna Image, Sircar no. 8: nom -e (yakhe = yakSaH, etc.);
Orissa: -o/e : the exception  seto in Asoka's Dh is important as it  does
not conform with Magadhi but with later Orissa, Kharavela ++;
Kharavela's Hathigumpa inscr. poses many problems, as is well known.
Unfortunately,  Sircar has nothing but this one and one of his queen's (no.
92), plus one near Puri of the  end of the 1st c. BCE, which is almost too
short to be of use here. (but see -patino, below).  I would like to see
more of Or. MIA before deciding on Orissa (and cf. my suspicions in the
last email).
NW:
-e forms in Zeda, near Und, Rawalpindi Dst.:  Inscr. of Kanishka,  Sircar
no. 42  --  but   -o forms in Manikiala from the  same Dst., Sircar no. 43,
on the other hand,  -e also in Kurram inscr. Sircar  no. 47. As has long
been pointed out, even the NW gets influenced by the central dialect (cf.
Caillat on Asoka's Mansehra!)

The same / similar points could be made for:
2. forms in  -as, see list in Bloch p. 47sq.

3. or the  gen. -as > e/o.
For all these forms it is likely that the Central dialect, the continuant
of the Rgvedic Kuru dialect,  has split up the area of older -e forms which
remained in the NW and the E, and has introduced central -o forms.  (-e
once in the RV: sUre,  and of course in Asoka++, in Gandhara).
Post Asokan : Barhut, Besnagar (MP, Sircar p. 87sqq, no. 1-2) have:  -no
for -nas,
Parkham Image (Sircar no. 7) :  kRtaH > kato,   -rAjaH   = -raJo (ra~o),
Orissa:  Kharavela, but also no. 93: Manchapuri inscr. -patino cf. -siirino.
MP.  Gunji inscr., Raigarh, Chattisgarh (n. 93A) : ra(m)~o, (cf. also NW
-ch- : savachare!)

4. The r/l  distinction has a  similar distribution:
'asurya' -l- in the east: SatapathaBr. (he 'lavo);
cf. Mehendale  p. IX  and Bloch p. 46-47 on Central and S. India.
Note in Mauryan time: Nagarjuni Hill, Gaya, (Sircar p. 77 no. 41) with l
forms;
In many Sanchi inscr. immediately after Asoka, -r-.
Already Mehendale's position is  sensible: the Asokan Patna style text has
been preserved in many places, not the local pronunciation...

It must be underlined that the  exact boundary of r/l is not necessarily
the same one as that of  -e/-o  or cch /kh. Isogloss bundles of this type
do not always overlap in their combined area, a fact well known from
dialect studies.  There is an often broad 'fan' of intermediate forms
between dialect A and dialect B, where certain features of the other
dialect are found, but not all of them (i.e., a sort of Ardha-xyz).

5. Instructive: the vRkSa case, see Mehendale p. 3,  cf. H. Berger, Zwei
Probleme der mittelindischen Lautlehre, Munchen 1955 (p. 73), -kh- almost
everywhere,
eg. kalpavRkSa = kapa-rukhe in Kharavela,  and Pali  rukkha (in Pali only 2
times  (north)western -vaccha, see Berger, p. 73).




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jan 16 22:27:39 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 17:27:39 -0500
Subject: origins of Pali (II)
In-Reply-To: <v04220802b4a1dd25f1d0@[212.250.68.6]>
Message-ID: <161227055309.23782.13655526472343569295.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

(continued)

B.

Even with this kind of (admittedly, here only sketchy) evidence, the REAL
boundary of Magadhi remains the issue, as far as Asoka's language and
post-Asokan MIA are concerned. Its area may indeed have been narrower than
we usually think. (Here, I tend to agree with Norman, e.g. in G. Erdosy:
The Indo-Aryans of Ancient S. Asia, Berlin 1995: 280  <<but see on Bangla
Desh forms!>>  -- however, I  disagree with many of his further discussion,
-- not the point here).

I have tried to rethink that part of the problem for the *older* period:

We can observe the probable development of this dialect fairly well if we
link it up with some Vedic evidence. The son of the King of Kosala is once
criticized (in Jaim. Br.,) for speaking like the "easterners" (praacya),
and apparently the same people are meant by Satapatha Br. (and Patanjali)
when it speaks about Asurya speech:  quoting hailavo hailavo  (= he
'rayaH), which in the Kanva version is just: hailo, hailo (details in my
paper in: Dialectes 1989, p.99).  It is indeed strange that no one in
Videha talks like that, at least not in the Vedas: one could expect some
denigrated opponent of Yajnavalkya or maybe king Janaka himself (but, I
have observed in other instances too that deviant speech is normalized into
the local Vedic dialect)... So, the question is : who are these
'easterners' and  where do they live? The Maagadha person  in the Asvamedha
etc., unfortunately does not speak but just acts obnoxiously. And Brahmins
live in Magadha/Anga only in the very late Vedic period  (Rgveda Aranyakas)
and we do not hear about the Kalingas, etc., exempt for their name...

(( As mentioned, I doubt that the Orissa  of that period had received its
MIA from the still(??)  non-IA Bengal  <<but note the eastern form
koThAgAle  (nom.) in the Mahasthan stone plaque, 3rd c. BCE, in Bogra,
Bangla Desh,  Sircar no. 45!! >>,  ---  maybe rather via Nagpur (Vidarbha,
mentioned in JaimBr.) Cf. in this respect  also the Raigarh inscr.,
Chattisgarh, Sircar no. 93 A, with 'western features', note also
samvachara  -- (= Asoka's western and southern(!) form) -- nothing is very
straightforward!!  This scenario would fit indeed better the spread of
"western" forms in areas such as Orissa. ))

Be that as it may,  true Magadha forms  such as l for r may have been
restricted to that fairly narrow area; others such as,  importantly, the
Eastern anaptyxis are more widely spread:  eastern  -tiy- for western -cc-
and Pali -cc-,  see Dialects p.179 quoting v.Hinueber, Ueberblick p. 60, 87
and cf. the Vedic evidence quoted there; (NB it has been typical for Orissa
from Asoka via medieval inscriptions until today!)
But, again, where is the exact boundary??  The Piprahwa vase, Basti Dst.,
UP, north of Benares, has  saki[yaanaM] for zaakyaanaam) <<however,  note
the 'preservation' of forms with Ciy, Cuv in some central and eastern Vedic
dialects! 1989, p. 170sqq.>>,  and note the Magadhi style Bangladeshi form
mentioned above ...

 So far, it remains difficult to tell.  A *detailed* study of the MIA
inscriptions of the eastern areas is called for -- something I cannot do
here and which, anyhow, is not my preferred field.





C.

All of this does not solve the problem of  Pali, yet,  to everybody's
satisfaction. But such a study would provide more secure details. I suppose
no one wants to suggest nowadays that Pali comes from Orissa.  As for
eastern UP and northern Bihar (note that only *some* Kosala people "speak
like the easterners"), we would, in addition to the inscriptional evidence,
have to compare v. Hinueber's Paisaci suggestion (perhaps from the Kausambi
area, as far as I remember), plus see where  Ardhamagadhi fits in
(unfortunately, attested late, exc. the verses, again).

Based on this scanty Vedic evidence, I suggest that the dialect boundary at
that time was the SadAnIrA river = Gandaki R. north of Patna,  separating
the Kosala and Videha,  and south of the Ganges the (post-Vedic) Karmanasi
river (both of which have been discussed by R. Salomon some 20 years ago in
Adyar Libr. Bull. 42, 1978, 32;  cf. for  further details, my dialect paper
1989: 116-117). Perhaps N. Bihar had only some of the isoglosses that
characterized Magadhi, i.e. some  of the typical Magadhi sounds and forms
(Ardhamagadhi?). I cannot tell (can someone?) at this moment.

Further,  we would have to account for the older forms in the verses that
Lueders, etc., have distilled and that precede / or just are from a
different dialect than  'standard' Pali.  Much of all of this has recently
been discussed in the several volumes ed. by H. Bechert, (which I also do
not have here with me) but to which we can take recourse.

Die Sprache der altesten buddhistischen Uberlieferung = The language of the
earliest Buddhist tradition / herausgegeben von Heinz Bechert. Gottingen :
Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1980.
( Symposien zur Buddhismusforschung ; 2 --Abhandlungen der Akademie der
Wissenschaften in Gottingen, Philologisch-Historische Klasse ; 3. Folge,
Nr. 117)
cf. also: Zur Schulzugehorigkeit von Werken der Hinayana-Literatur /
herausgegeben von Heinz Bechert. Gottingen : Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht,
1985-1987
(Symposien zur Buddhismusforschung ; 3 = Abhandlungen der Akademie der
Wissenschaften in Gottingen, Philologisch-Historische Klasse ; 3. Folge,
Nr. 149, 154)

Again, not on my (already full) plate of things to be done. Nevertheless, I
can say at this stage, that the solution is not so simple as proposed in
past emails: when detailing the 'homeland' of the basic dialect underlying
Pali we have to compare all the items mentioned above: from late Vedic to
post-Asokan inscriptions of UP, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa. To say that
the area of typical Magadhi features does not include post-Asokan Orissa,
Madhya Pradesh  (etc.) is not enough. Rather, we have to zero in on *many*
of the isoglosses that separate it from other  dialects, also those in
N.Bihar, Eastern UP (eastern anaptyxis!) and NE  Madhya Pradesh, Orissa.



MW./




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Jan 16 22:38:36 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 17:38:36 -0500
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
In-Reply-To: <20000116093303.2886.qmail@www0b.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <161227055310.23782.4059153145260405667.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A horse is a horse is a horse, even in the RV.
The ass, I am afraid, is to be sought for elsewhere.

Some details in  the sarasvati list.

>How does one conclude that all references to as'va in the R.gveda connote a
>horse? S.B.Roy notes that the word as'va in the very early R.gvedic times
>meant an ass.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Mon Jan 17 02:23:45 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 19:23:45 -0700
Subject: jainism
In-Reply-To: <16JAN00.06706404.0014.MUSIC@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Message-ID: <161227055316.23782.11014735550310641246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Lynken Ghose asked:

>I was wondering if anyone knows of a Jain group that I could contact
>which could give me some information about Jain practice. I would prefer
>a group in North America - if possible both email and phone. I am
>asking because I will be presenting a class on Jainism next week and
>need more concrete information than is in the textbooks.

Major Jain centeres in USA are listed at
http://www.bharatonline.com/Jaina/centers/index.htm

Some of the experts are:
Dr. Gada     gadapb9jafna at pol.net
Pravin Shah  enhb34a at prodigy.com

Yashwant




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Mon Jan 17 01:30:14 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 20:30:14 -0500
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?
Message-ID: <161227055312.23782.5016438165157480771.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/15/00 11:24:25 AM Central Standard Time,
geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU writes:

> This sounds reasonable, and could explain why it is usually written
>  "saambhaar".

How is the long "-aa-" after "s-"explained? Thanks.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sun Jan 16 22:01:34 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 00 22:01:34 +0000
Subject: :-) Happy Pongal & Solution for India's language problem :-)
Message-ID: <161227055304.23782.7875472087137448687.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
>
> Happy Pongal everybody. On this Tamil festival day, I would like the members
> to consider the following.
>
> Based on the recent and past discussions in Indology, I offer a solution to
> the language problem in India. Given the multilingual ability of Indians, we
> should make Tamil also an official/link language of India as well as a
> classical language.......
>
> I request Vishalji and Bharatji to convince the Indian Government of the
> merits of this solution. :-) :-)

Many Happy Returns of Pongal/Makara Sankranti.

Throroughly impressed and in agreement with the above solution, I visited my freinds at
the headquarters of the BJP  and found them jubiliant at the prospects of capturing
power in Tamil Nadu! Trusting the multilingual ability of Indians, they hoped that other
states like Kerala and Bengal will also make such demands, which they will gladly
concede and capture power there also.

However, gettting the wind of matter from the NET, there also arrived on the scene
activists of DMK and AIDMK, who insisted that NOT TAMIL ALSO, BUT TAMIL ONLY and NO
HINDI should be the official/link language. Realising the need for DMK support at the
Centre and apprehensive of the past habits of AIDMK, they decided to recommend that the
Govt. appoints a "Tamil as Official Language Commission", for which I haved proposed
that it be chaired by Sri Palaniappan and should comprise of Sri N Ganesan, Sri
Swaminathan Madhuresan and some others. Let us all hope for the best.
Bharat Gupt




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jan 17 09:03:24 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 09:03:24 +0000
Subject: [ADMIN] Volume and frequency of posting
Message-ID: <161227055318.23782.5207672471680900331.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

For the last two or three months I have not been watching INDOLOGY
carefully for overposting, on the assumption that the people I had warned
about overposting last year would have mended their ways.  I am
disappointed to find that my trust has been misplaced, and postings from
some individuals have been grossly above the limits for this list.

I've initiated some suspensions from the list with immediate effect.  And
I shall be examining the list logs for the past few months to see whether
others have systematically exceeded list norms.

I remind members that postings should be short (normally not more than a
screenful of text) and that not more than about fifteen postings per month
per member are welcomed.   I note that several members are already nearing
this limit for the current month.

If you are posting more than every other day, or so, then you badly need
some other hobbies.  :-)

Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Mon Jan 17 09:34:23 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 09:34:23 +0000
Subject: Noah's Flood
Message-ID: <161227055320.23782.18000451210383143623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've just read
Noah's Flood by Ryan and Pitman.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684861372/theindologybooks/

It's an odd book, presenting apparently solid geological seabed and
related data but in a popular, even sensationalizing, medium.

In any case, the central idea is that the Black Sea basin was virtually
dry in the early sixth millennium BC.  Then, in ca. 5600 BC the Bosphorus
channel opened up and a cataclysmic flood poured through a 400ft
waterfall, at water speeds of 40-50 knots, for a period of a year or so.
This caused the creation of the modern Black Sea.  The populations living
in the Black Sea depression were of course caused to flee from the rising
waterline.  The flood legends in Akkadian, Babylonian, Hebrew, and other
traditions are a memory of this event, which is also suggested as the
cause for the beginning of the Indo-European migrations.

Any thoughts from others who have read the book, or related studies?

Dominik




From zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Jan 17 16:28:45 2000
From: zwilling at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Leonard Zwilling)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 10:28:45 -0600
Subject: SubhASita query
Message-ID: <161227055336.23782.7016795497182086429.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Le Museon IV (1903) and V (1904), Cecil Bendall published an anonymous
anthology of extracts from Buddhist literature under the title
"SubhASita-SaMgraha." The library here at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison is unfortunately lacking those very volumes and no library
seems willing to send them on inter-library loan. Can anyone on the list
tell me if  that collection was at some time reprinted elsewhere (which may
be more accessible), or whether it has been the subject of scholarly
investigation? Thank you.




From mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL  Mon Jan 17 10:29:31 2000
From: mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL (=?utf-8?Q?Maciej_St=2E_Zi=C3=AAba?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 11:29:31 +0100
Subject: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
Message-ID: <161227055326.23782.2419012392116554198.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>



Automatic digest processor wrote:
>
> There are 12 messages totalling 564 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
>   1. wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali) (3)
>   2. event announcement from SARAI
>   3. mitochondria and Indology (was Re: AIT, NEW genetic evidence)
>   4. New Publication
>   5. NEW SANSKRIT ANTHOLOGY
>   6. Etymology: sambar, the dish?
>   7. History of indian cooking (RE: Etymology: sambar, the dish?) (3)
>   8. History of indian cooking
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:56:22 -0600
> From:    "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>

>
> Indologists,
>
>    Is there a metrical invocation (preferably in Skt.) from a Buddhist
> text which in *any* way corresponds to verses like:
>
>         sarasvati namastubhyaM varade kaamaruupiNi (etc.)
>
> or      zuklaambaradharaM viSNuM zazivarNaM caturbhujam (etc.)
>
> I need something appropriate to teach a group of Intro. to Buddhism
> students on the first day of class. Or any metrical slogan dealing with
> the 1st Noble Truth.
>
> best,
> Tim Cahill
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:07:36 +0100
> From:    Ashok Aklujkar <aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA>
> Subject: Re: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
>
> Some suggestions (the first five may be preferable; the first three as
> short and manageable for beginners; the fourth and fifth because of the
> lilt of their metre and direct mention of Sugata/;Saast.r):
>


I have some more suggestions, some in Sanskrit, some in Pali. Mostly
traditional verses, I hardly know the source

1. Typical Buddhist "credo"

ye dharmA hetuprabhvA
hetuM teSAM tathAgato hy avadat
teSAM ca yo nirodha
evaM vAdI mahAshramaNaH

2) the most well-know maybe:
(in Pali)

aniccA vata saMkhArA
uppAda vaya dhammino
uppajjitvA nirujjhanti
tesaM vupasamo sukho

This verse has beeun paraphrased into japanese as the famous iroha-uta,
verse that served as Japanese alphabet.
To let you read about it (with the text thereof, as well as other
information) I join some excerpts from a discussion on Iroha on the
Buddha-L and H-Asia lists in summer 1997.

3) (in Pali)
sabba pApassa akaraNaM
kusalassa upasampadA
sacitta pariyodapanaM
etaM buddhana sAsanaM


4) as far as the 1st Noble Truth concerned

sabbe saGkhArA dukkhA'ti
yadA paJJAya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiyA

5) maybe also this one (Pali)

n'atthi me saraNaM aJJaM
dhammo me saraNaM varaM
etena saccavajjena
hotu me jayamaGgalaM


> ------------------------------
>
> Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:13:10 -0700
> From:    Yashwant Malaiya <malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
>
> The best known invocation in ancient India, for others
> as well as Buddhists, was "Om Namah Siddham".
>

specifically Buddhist invocations might rather be:

1. (p) namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammAsambuddhassa

2. oM namaH buddhaya

3. oM namaH sarvajJAya

4. oM bhagavatyai prajJApAramitAyai namaH


But all these lack the metrical aspect


Maciej



--
======================================================================
                 Lasciate ogni speranza voi qu'entrate ...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                         dr Maciej St. Zieba
Vice-Director                                           Z-ca Dyrektora
Lublin Voivod's Cabinet                   Gabinet Wojewody Lubelskiego
  European Integration, International Relations and Regional Policy
ul. Spokojna 4                         tel. (081) 532 07 32; 74 24 430
20-914 LUBLIN, Poland                             fax: (081) 74 24 316
e-mail: mszieba at uw.lublin.pl
                   http://www.uw.lublin.pl/luw/l_u_w/1_gab_wo/zagr.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
polski - English - fran?ais - Esperanto - Nederlands - Deutsch - norsk
            pycckuu - tlhIngan Hol - Hanyu - saMskRtA bhASA
======================================================================

From: Kyoko Selden <ks32 at cornell.edu>

The iroha-uta, said to be a loose translation of a 16-character "ge" from
the Nehan (nirvana) Sutra, is first mentioned 1079.  How far back it can be
traced is still a question.  There is a 970 mention of at least two other
poems similarly made up of 47 different syllables, none of which is
repeated.  One of them, by Minamoto no Shitagoo, is still very famous.  Ooe
no Masafusa (1041-1111) ascribed it to Kuukai (774-835), but this
ascription is now enjoyed only as a piece of legend.


we have Iroha-uta as follows:
     Iro-ha nihoheto
     chirinuru-wo,
     waka-yo tare-so
     tsune naramu;
     uwi-no okuyama
     kefu koyete,
     asaki yume mishi
     wehi-mo sesu.

Kyoko Selden
(Japanese language instructor, Cornell University, NY)

------------------

William Bodiford  (bodiford at ucla.edu) Wrote:

        The Buddhist verse in question is the well-known Buddhist verse of
the dharma of impermanence:
                All compounded things are impermanent.
                This is the dharma of production & destruction
                When production & destruction is quieted
                Then that is bliss.
        or Pali:
                aniccaa vata sa at mkhaaraa
                uppaada vaya dhammino
                uppa jjitva nirujjhanti
                tesa at m vuupasamo sukho
        or Sino-Japanese:
                Shogyou mujou
                kore shoumetsu hou
                shoumetsu metsui
                jakumetsu i raku


__William Bodiford  (bodiford at ucla.edu)

-----------------------

Jon Babcock <jon at kanji.com> wrote:

A _quick_ check under iroha in the latest editions of the Daijirin and
Koujiten J-J dictionaries shows them stangely silent on IROHA-uta.
But old Nelson (to distinguish it from the new one that just came out)
has this:

Romanization            Kana Represented

Iro wa nioedo           I-ro-ha ni-ho-he-to
Chirinuru o             Chi-ri-nu-ru (w)o
Waga yo tare zo         Wa-ka yo ta-re so
Tsune naran             Tsu-ne na-ra-mu
Ui no okuyama           U-(w)i no o-ku-ya-ma
Kyoo koete              Ke-fu ko-e-te
Asaki yumei miji        A-sa-ki yu-me mi-shi
Ei mo sezu.             (W)e-hi mo se-su.

"A roughly literal parahrase might run: "Colors are fragrant, but they
fade away. In this world of ours none lasts forever.  Today cross the
hight mountain of life's  illusions [i.e., rise above this physical
world], and there will be no more shallow dreaming, no more
drunkenness [i.e., there will be no more uneasiness, no more
temptations]."

See page 1014 in Andrew Nathaniel Nelson, _The Modern Reader's
Japanese-English Character Dictionary_ 2nd Revised Edition. 1974.

The words in brackets are also from Nelson.

Note that Iro is the standard kanji translation of rUpa;
that Ui is the usual kanji translation of samskrita.

So, for example, a more 'technical' translation of line 5 would be,
"the high (or deep) mountain of the conditioned [world].  But Nelson
was making no claims for _Buddhist_ correctness in this gloss.

Jon Babcock

-------------------

Jon Babcock <jon at kanji.com> wrote:

In my last message I mentioned that I found the latest editions of the
_Daijirin_ and the _Koujien_ "strangely silent" on the origin of the
_IROHA uta_ . Well, they aren't.  A more leisurely return visit to
the _Koujien_ 4th edition, revealed that I had overlooked the entry.

Koujien (p. 190) says that the song is a Japanese translation of the
_meaning_ of a gatha in Chapter 13 of the Nirvana Sutra (Ch. Niepan
Jing), the Sheng xing (or: read 'heng' among some Chinese Buddhist
circles) pin. (= Mahaaparinirvaan.a suutra) I looked through Ch. 13
(zhuan 13) of one edition of this sutra and could not find the gatha.
But, one zhuan later, near the end of zhuan 14, it appeared. Perhaps
there are several Chinese translations with different organizations?

I have a vague recollection that it is against the rules to include
doublebyte encodings in posts to this list; a pity because I would
rather include just the Chinese, since I've not studied this sutra.
But here is a rough gloss of the text.  Each line consists of four
kanji.

1.  All actions have no permanence.       [actions, or conduct]
2.  This is arising and stopping dharma.  [arisal, or birth; stopping, demise]
3.  Arising and stopping once stopped,    [once, or having been]
4.  Utter stopping constitues joy.        [Utter, also silent ??]

The Koujien goes on to say what you and others have stated, that the
song is believed to have been made by Koubou Dai Shi (another name for
Kuukai, 774 -835), but that in fact it was composed sometime within
the Heian Peried, after Koubou Dai Shi's death.

Jon Babcock

PS I see I've been too slow to realize that this tread has reappeared as
"Mahaparinirvana Sutra".  Now I've got the Chinese text in front of
me; an attempt at translation may follow there.

------------------------------

From:    Mahinda Deegalle <mahinda at dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp>

Volume three of Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan (Tokyo: Kodansha,
1983) contains an entry on 'iroha poem' (iroha uta), p. 332.  It
includes both the original poem and English translation.  It maintains
that iroha uta has its origins in the Heian Period (794-1185).  Though
author is `unknown,` it mentions that the authorship of iroha uta is
`traditionally` attributed to KUUKAI (774-835), the founder of Shingon
Sect of Japanese Buddhism.  It further states that the iroha uta first
appears in the eleventh century documents.  Asserting the iroha uta's
Buddhist background, it states that Buddhist teachings compare the
impermanent nature of human existence to "the short-lived beauty of a
flower" (p. 332).
  Another entry "Iroha jirui shoo," a Japanese language dictionary
produced by Tachibana no Tadakane in the late twelfth century,
mentions that this dictionary was organized using 47 syllables of the
iroha uta.  For explicit Buddhist backgrounds of Japanese alphabet
also see "gojuuon zu" (p. 40).
    When I came to know about the iroha-uta about one and half years
 ago
and read it for the first time, I also wondered about its Buddhist
backgrounds.
  The doctrine of impermanence (Pali anicca, Japanese Mujoo) is
crucial to Buddhist teachings as a way of life and philosophy.  One of
the most ancient as well as mostly known Pali verse among Theravada
Buddhist communities is "aniccaa vata sa.nkhaara, uppaada vaya
dhammino" (conditioned things are indeed impermanent; they bear the
characteristics of rising and falling).  This verse is often recited
at funerals.  It highlights impermanent nature of human existence as
well as of all other things.
  The iroha uta begins:  "Iro wa nioedo chirinuru o--Waga yo tare zo
tsune naran" (The colors blossom, scatter, and fall.  In this world of
ours, who lasts forever?).  This part reminds me a Pali devotional
verse which is often recited in Sri Lankan Buddhist temples in
offering flowers to the Buddha and as a method of practising
meditation on impermanence (anicca).  It goes: "puppha.m milaayaati
yatha ida.m me-kaayo tathaa yaati vinaasabhaava.m" (as these flowers
fade away, so my body goes to destruction).

Mahinda Deegalle
Dept. of Religious Studies
Aichi Gakuin University
Japan

------------------------------

From: Marilyn Miller <mjmiller at bellsouth.net>

According to the Princeton Companion to Classical Japanese literature:
"Iroha uta"  Traditionally ascribed to Kuukai, this poem is now believed to
date from the mid-Heian period.

>3. Since when has the poem been used as an alphabet?

Iroha-uta is mentioned in some of the famous women's nikki of the Heian
period.  It seems to have been in common use in that period already as a
teaching/learning  device, a first step for children to learn kana
(tenarai).

By the way the only syllable missing in the poem is "n", perhaps because
that was a later development in writing.

Marilyn Miller
Assoc. Prof. of Japanese Language & Literature
Davidson College
Davidson, NC
USA

----------------------

From: DWag at compuserv.com

A convenient place to see the poem itself is in Nelson's _Japanese-English
character dictionary_, Appendix 7, p. 1014.

Don Wagner

----------------------------





From mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL  Mon Jan 17 10:50:01 2000
From: mszieba at UW.LUBLIN.PL (=?utf-8?Q?Maciej_St=2E_Zi=C3=AAba?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 11:50:01 +0100
Subject: wanted: Buddhist invocation (Skt / Pali)
Message-ID: <161227055328.23782.17289690439637409568.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Maciej St. Zieba wrote:

>> From:    "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>


> 4) as far as the 1st Noble Truth concerned
> 
> sabbe saGkhArA dukkhA'ti
> yadA paJJAya passati
> atha nibbindati dukkhe
> esa maggo visuddhiyA
> 

I see that due to my dissipation I have written only the first (or the
second according to other traditions) out of three verses:

sabbe saGkhArA dukkhA'ti
yadA paJJAya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiyA

sabbe saGkhArA aniccA'ti
yadA paJJAya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiyA

sabbe dhammA anattA'ti
yadA paJJAya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiyA

(here "J" stays for palatal n, "G" for the guttural one)

See also Dhammapada, verse 5, which runs: na hi vereNa veraNi .... (I
don't have the text with me)

Maciej

-- 
======================================================================
                 Lasciate ogni speranza voi qu'entrate ...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                         dr Maciej St. Zieba
Vice-Director                                           Z-ca Dyrektora
Lublin Voivod's Cabinet                   Gabinet Wojewody Lubelskiego
  European Integration, International Relations and Regional Policy
ul. Spokojna 4                         tel. (081) 532 07 32; 74 24 430
20-914 LUBLIN, Poland                             fax: (081) 74 24 316
e-mail: mszieba at uw.lublin.pl
                   http://www.uw.lublin.pl/luw/l_u_w/1_gab_wo/zagr.htm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
polski - English - fran?ais - Esperanto - Nederlands - Deutsch - norsk
            pycckuu - tlhIngan Hol - Hanyu - saMskRtA bhASA
======================================================================




From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Mon Jan 17 09:54:46 2000
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 11:54:46 +0200
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227055322.23782.2559983759305132916.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I went to the web page of the Hare Krishna organization and there is a
downloadable Mahabharata. With graphics and without. I could see only
the cover page and yes, the illustration was beautiful. Why don't you
check it out?
http://www.webcom.com/ara/col/books/BG/

Irene




From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Mon Jan 17 09:55:47 2000
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 11:55:47 +0200
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata -2-
Message-ID: <161227055324.23782.15037066071188714314.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Oops. Sorry. It is only Bhagavad Gita. But maybe it is done in the
same spirit, or it is a part of a bigger book...

Irene




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Mon Jan 17 12:26:30 2000
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 13:26:30 +0100
Subject: Noah's Flood
Message-ID: <161227055330.23782.12822813804696853789.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The theory of the post-Glacial flood (rise of the sea level with 100 m) as
the trigger of huge migrations including the initial migration of the
Proto-Indo-Europeans, as mentioned by Dr. Wujastyk, is eminently sensible.
But the Black Sea is not the only formerly inhabited territory whence
important migrations have taken
place, though elsewhere the process of inundation was more gradual.  Flooded
territories still inhabited in ca. 8000 BC include the Red Sea, Persian
Gulf, the continental shelf in front of Maharashtra and Gujarat (homeland of
the Elamites and Dravidians?) and around the Maledives.

In territorial extension, the most important such territory was the Sunda
shelf between
Java, Borneo, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan and China.  S. Oppenheimer (Eden in
the East, 1999) argues that the latter is the source of the Neolithic
Revolution and of the Austronesian and Austro-Asiatic language groups, who
migrated to the east, north and west, including India.  That the Nicobarese
and Munda languages belong to the Austro-Asiatic family is well-known.  The
main Indian language families also contain elements from Austronesian, which
expanded all across the Pacific Ocean, but also westward past India to
Madagascar.  As Isidore Dyen argued in a long-forgotten paper in 1966, there
is an intriguing, hard-to-explain but undeniable common element in the core
vocabulary of Indo-European and Austronesian, including the first four
numerals, the pronouns, and simple terms like those for "earth" and "water".

To repeat Dr. Wujastyk's question: any thoughts about this from others?

Yours sincerely,
Koenraad Elst

http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE  Mon Jan 17 13:06:12 2000
From: jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE (juergen neuss)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 14:06:12 +0100
Subject: :-) Happy Pongal & Solution for India's language problem :-)
Message-ID: <161227055334.23782.7171932080374834963.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Why do all Indology-list members receive messages like the ones cited
below and where is their acadamic (or any other) value:

Bharat Gupt schrieb:
>
> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
> >
> > Happy Pongal everybody. On this Tamil festival day, I would like the members
> > to consider the following.
> >
> > Based on the recent and past discussions in Indology, I offer a solution to
> > the language problem in India. Given the multilingual ability of Indians, we
> > should make Tamil also an official/link language of India as well as a
> > classical language.......
> >
> > I request Vishalji and Bharatji to convince the Indian Government of the
> > merits of this solution. :-) :-)
>
> Many Happy Returns of Pongal/Makara Sankranti.
>
> Throroughly impressed and in agreement with the above solution, I visited my freinds at
> the headquarters of the BJP  and found them jubiliant at the prospects of capturing
> power in Tamil Nadu! Trusting the multilingual ability of Indians, they hoped that other
> states like Kerala and Bengal will also make such demands, which they will gladly
> concede and capture power there also.
>
> However, gettting the wind of matter from the NET, there also arrived on the scene
> activists of DMK and AIDMK, who insisted that NOT TAMIL ALSO, BUT TAMIL ONLY and NO
> HINDI should be the official/link language. Realising the need for DMK support at the
> Centre and apprehensive of the past habits of AIDMK, they decided to recommend that the
> Govt. appoints a "Tamil as Official Language Commission", for which I haved proposed
> that it be chaired by Sri Palaniappan and should comprise of Sri N Ganesan, Sri
> Swaminathan Madhuresan and some others. Let us all hope for the best.
> Bharat Gupt

--
Juergen Neuss
Freie Universitaet Berlin
Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a
D-14195 Berlin




From Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI  Mon Jan 17 12:49:38 2000
From: Klaus.Karttunen at HELSINKI.FI (Klaus Karttunen)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 14:49:38 +0200
Subject: History of indian cooking
In-Reply-To: <387FA88D.C4404019@mentorg.com>
Message-ID: <161227055332.23782.11878405799422778627.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the 1970s Gabriela Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi wrote some interesting articles
about food and religion in South India. The only reference I have here
(others are at home) is "The foods disliked by the gods in South India",
Annali dell' Istituto Orientale di Napoli 37, 1977, 257-373, where she also
discusses the question of contrast between the traditional foods offered to
the gods and the more recently introduced ones not acceptable to them.

Greetings

Klaus


Klaus Karttunen
Institute for Asian and African Studies
Box 59, 00014 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358-9-191-22224, fax. +358-9-191-22094




From gregjay at POI.NET  Tue Jan 18 02:40:41 2000
From: gregjay at POI.NET (Greg Jay)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 16:40:41 -1000
Subject: Hail
In-Reply-To: <009401bf6144$e1a1a200$b026893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055346.23782.12518819525915030285.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have personally experienced hail in the Mathura-Vrndavana area near to
Agra in UP.

Greg Jay




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 17 17:36:33 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 17:36:33 +0000
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055338.23782.1229663131563902059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <Palaniappa at AOL.COM> wrote:

>If the name vikramAditya is not really relevant as Vidyasankar says, then a
>ninth century date can satisfy both Cambodian and Tamil data.

I don't think it is irrelevant. I only think it is difficult to zero down
on who exactly this vikramAditya is. I think that efforts to reach a modern
notion of certainty in such matters often tend to be misguided.

Vidyasankar




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Tue Jan 18 00:43:51 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 19:43:51 -0500
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055341.23782.13392782819907439388.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/10/00 7:21:31 PM Central Standard Time,
ramakris at EROLS.COM writes:

> Is the memory of
>  people so bad that he can't be credited with a "wave of mAyAvAda" in
>  some text supposedly written about 50 years later? This is assuming
>  that the text refers to sha.nkara in the first place.
>
>  In any case,  I frankly doubt if the Tamil text refers to sha.nkara.
>  If it did, it would be the *first* non-orthodox school to refer to
>  sha.nkara! Nakamura has shown all the non-othodox schools like Jains
>  and Buddhists who came **after** sha.nkara refer to either Bhaskara or
>  only Mandana Mishra.

I am surprised at this. mANikkavAcakar (M) was not a Jain or Buddhist and no
Tamil zaivite would consider M to be of the non-orthodox school. Along with
appar, campantar, and cuntarar, he forms the group of four zaivite religious
preceptors (Ta. camaya kuravar). To the extent some advaitins believe that
Saundaryalahari  praises campantar, M cannot be considered non-orthodox.
Moreover, he had a special association with Chidambaram temple where the
rituals are claimed to be vedic and not agamic. Also, M debated Buddhists in
Chidambaram.

M's reference to mAyAvAda occurs in a section where he mentions that
proponents of different philosophies tried to convince him of the merits of
their respective views. (He is not referring to something that happened
before his time.) Here, he distinguishes mImAMsA from mAyAvAda. While the
proponents of all other schools are mentioned in the plural, the references
to the mAyAvAda hurricane (caNTamArutam cuzittu aTittu Aarttu) and the
proponent of lokAyata (ulOkAyatan2) are in the singular. One cannot but
conclude that there was an extremely powerful proponent of mAyAvAda
encountered by M. The question is: was it zaGkara or maNDana mizra (MM)? If
MM was so famous, why do we not have many inscriptional references to him in
Tamilnadu?

kAntaLUrccAlai had students from lATa, karnATa, mAlava, kanauja, golla,
marahaTTa, soraTha, Dhakka, zrIkaNTha, and saindhava, according to
kuvalayamAlA. The breadth of subjects studied in that college and the
scholarly interchange that seemed to be going on in the 8th century and the
fact that pArttivacEkarapuram college (modeled after the former) did not have
any vEdAnta study even after a century make it worth revisiting zankara's
suggested date of 700 AD.

Regards
S. Palaniappan




From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET  Tue Jan 18 02:33:44 2000
From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 21:33:44 -0500
Subject: Hail
In-Reply-To: <009401bf6144$e1a1a200$b026893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055344.23782.14812612457567431390.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

on 1/17/00 6:44 PM, Stephen Hodge at s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK
wrote:

> I wonder if anybody can tell me what areas of the Indian sub-continent
> have hail -- I would imagine fairly northly, north-western regions.  I
> have a Sanskrit Buddhist text that mentions hail-storms and I suppose
> that the authors would have been with such weather conditions.
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge


I recall witnessing a brief hail storm in Varanasi. This storm occurred, as
best I recall, during the monsoon of 1978 or 1979.




From dbgray62 at HOME.COM  Tue Jan 18 03:25:14 2000
From: dbgray62 at HOME.COM (DAVID GRAY)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 22:25:14 -0500
Subject: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055348.23782.1712293294122069663.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the northern, mountainous regions hail is not uncommon throughout the
year.  While I was staying in Sarnath, however, December 1997, we
received a furious hailstorm that lasted only about twenty minutes, but
produced stones as large as 2-3 cm in diameter.  Combined with
tempestous winds, this storm did a great deal of damage to local crops.
An elderly man I lived with said that this was an unusual occurance, but
recalled that there was a similar storm 30 or so years earlier, so it
seems that hail storms are not unknown in the Gangetic region during the
winter month (Winter does only seem to last about a month in the Sarnath area).

David Gray

Stephen Hodge wrote:
>
> I wonder if anybody can tell me what areas of the Indian sub-continent
> have hail -- I would imagine fairly northly, north-western regions.  I
> have a Sanskrit Buddhist text that mentions hail-storms and I suppose
> that the authors would have been with such weather conditions.
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge




From emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET  Tue Jan 18 04:03:38 2000
From: emstern at BELLATLANTIC.NET (Elliot M. Stern)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 23:03:38 -0500
Subject: Obituary for Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau
In-Reply-To: <v04003a03b4a3f77c6da1@[207.23.94.71]>
Message-ID: <161227055352.23782.3544432454573108886.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I would like to echo Ashok Aklujkar's appreciation of Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau.
I had the good fortune to spend some months as a guest scholar at Marburg in
1982 while working on my dissertation. I remember his supportive interest in
my project, the facilities offered for me to pursue my work, and his
personal attention to my well being while staying in Marburg.

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
United States of America
Telephone: 215-747-6204
email: emstern at bellatlantic.net




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Mon Jan 17 23:44:30 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 00 23:44:30 +0000
Subject: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055339.23782.2069406160573416578.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wonder if anybody can tell me what areas of the Indian sub-continent
have hail -- I would imagine fairly northly, north-western regions.  I
have a Sanskrit Buddhist text that mentions hail-storms and I suppose
that the authors would have been with such weather conditions.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Tue Jan 18 00:57:21 2000
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 00:57:21 +0000
Subject: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055343.23782.12871528737811974589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I remember seeing pea-sized hail as a child in Madurai (about 10 deg N). It
did not last long. [You can get hail-storms in American Midwest in summer,
when the min. temp is 10-15 deg above freezing.] What matters is the
temperature at the cloud level, not the temp at the ground level.




From pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 18 04:52:45 2000
From: pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM (Gabriel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 01:52:45 -0300
Subject: :-) Happy Pongal & Solution for India's language problem :-)
Message-ID: <161227055355.23782.5419995414810514623.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Gabriel wrote,
                    I'd like Sanskrit better. Not Tamil.

----- Original Message -----
From: juergen neuss <jneuss at ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: :-) Happy Pongal & Solution for India's language problem :-)


> Why do all Indology-list members receive messages like the ones cited
> below and where is their acadamic (or any other) value:
>
> Bharat Gupt schrieb:
> >
> > Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
> > >
> > > Happy Pongal everybody. On this Tamil festival day, I would like the
members
> > > to consider the following.
> > >
> > > Based on the recent and past discussions in Indology, I offer a
solution to
> > > the language problem in India. Given the multilingual ability of
Indians, we
> > > should make Tamil also an official/link language of India as well as a
> > > classical language.......
> > >
> > > I request Vishalji and Bharatji to convince the Indian Government of
the
> > > merits of this solution. :-) :-)
> >
> > Many Happy Returns of Pongal/Makara Sankranti.
> >
> > Throroughly impressed and in agreement with the above solution, I
visited my freinds at
> > the headquarters of the BJP  and found them jubiliant at the prospects
of capturing
> > power in Tamil Nadu! Trusting the multilingual ability of Indians, they
hoped that other
> > states like Kerala and Bengal will also make such demands, which they
will gladly
> > concede and capture power there also.
> >
> > However, gettting the wind of matter from the NET, there also arrived on
the scene
> > activists of DMK and AIDMK, who insisted that NOT TAMIL ALSO, BUT TAMIL
ONLY and NO
> > HINDI should be the official/link language. Realising the need for DMK
support at the
> > Centre and apprehensive of the past habits of AIDMK, they decided to
recommend that the
> > Govt. appoints a "Tamil as Official Language Commission", for which I
haved proposed
> > that it be chaired by Sri Palaniappan and should comprise of Sri N
Ganesan, Sri
> > Swaminathan Madhuresan and some others. Let us all hope for the best.
> > Bharat Gupt
>
> --
> Juergen Neuss
> Freie Universitaet Berlin
> Institut fuer Indische Philologie und Kunstgeschichte
> Koenigin-Luise-Str. 34a
> D-14195 Berlin




From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Tue Jan 18 03:38:27 2000
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 05:38:27 +0200
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227055350.23782.7935224106724604515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I went to the web page of the Hare Krishna organization and there is a
Bhagavad Gita. You can view it either with graphics and without. And
yes, the illustrations seemed in the same spirit as those you
described. Why don't you check it out? It may be part of the
Mahabharata you are talking about, and maybe by browsing their site
there may be some indications about the real book.
http://www.webcom.com/ara/col/books/BG/

Irene




From tancredi at OTENET.GR  Tue Jan 18 04:03:47 2000
From: tancredi at OTENET.GR (IreneMaradei)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 06:03:47 +0200
Subject: Illustrated Mahabharata
Message-ID: <161227055354.23782.5391519617634777140.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sorry about the repetition. There is something wrong about my mailing
program.



I.M.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 18 14:38:32 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 06:38:32 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055366.23782.14993869592970285829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I would like to know if there was any famous lokAyata exponent living
>in/visting Tamilnadu in the ninth century. Thanks in advance.

Is Manikkavacakar talking about Jayaraasi of the 8th century?
Jayarasibhatta is partial towards madhyamika while harsh on others
(Eli Franco's thesis). The south had many "Middle Way" teachers,
did Jayarasi learn it there? Does the TiruvAcakam refer to
MaNDana as the mayavadim like later Kashmir Shaivaites?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From samizdata at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jan 18 14:59:39 2000
From: samizdata at EARTHLINK.NET (Joseph Carson)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 06:59:39 -0800
Subject: available now
Message-ID: <161227055370.23782.1278239362348387482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sir,

         I believe you have me mistaken for someone else. I am not a
publisher, nor do I work for a publisher.  Your list is no danger of
being spammed by me, or indeed of being disturbed by me.  My interest is
purely scholarly.  I would be glad for a chance to lurk without the
option of submitting posts of any kind whatever, if it is possible for
us to proceed on that basis.  Please acknowledge receipt of this email,
with your judgment as to the merits of this "no postings ever"
petition.  Thanks for your kind consideration.
          Sincerely yours, Joseph Carson

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:

> Publishers are NOT allowed to advertise on this list.  (Authors are
> encouraged to announce their own publications.)
>
> Your subscription to the list is being cancelled.
>
> --
> Dominik Wujastyk
> Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA  Tue Jan 18 17:47:33 2000
From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 09:47:33 -0800
Subject: My new book
Message-ID: <161227055377.23782.16576659361116495725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Friends,
        My most recent book, a volume of articles by contributors from
India, England, Canada and the USA edited by me has just been published by
Oxford University Press, New York. Its title is:

FACES OF THE FEMININE IN ANCIENT, MEDIEVAL AND MODERN INDIA

Mandakranta Bose
Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research
Institute of Asian Research
University of British Columbia
Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2
mbose at interchange.ubc.ca




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Tue Jan 18 15:28:56 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 10:28:56 -0500
Subject: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055372.23782.17327214617058416112.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have seen hail in HP and kashmir and UP. I once saw small hail stones in
bombay but of course that was a freak phenomenon.




From lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan 18 05:28:01 2000
From: lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN (lpp)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 10:58:01 +0530
Subject: available now
Message-ID: <161227055357.23782.12101715438117851563.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

THE YOGA-VASISHTHA MAHARAMAYANA OF VALMIKI in 4 vols. in 7 parts. Bound in
4. / Vihari Lala Mitra Reprinted in 1999.
c, 3650pp, Demy 8vo.  ISBN 81-7536-179-4, 1999
104/- USDollars per set.( Plus postage)
order at : Info at lppindia.com




From lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan 18 05:30:32 2000
From: lpp at NDE.VSNL.NET.IN (lpp)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 11:00:32 +0530
Subject: available now
Message-ID: <161227055359.23782.260879832205640991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

THE YOGA-VASISHTHA MAHARAMAYANA OF VALMIKI in 4 vols. in 7 parts. Bound in
4. / Vihari Lala Mitra Reprinted in 1999.
c, 3650pp, Demy 8vo.  ISBN 81-7536-179-4, 1999
104/- USDollars per set.( Plus postage)
order at : Info at lppindia.com




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000118/a7e71110/attachment.htm>

From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jan 18 11:06:20 2000
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 11:06:20 +0000
Subject: Hail
In-Reply-To: <009401bf6144$e1a1a200$b026893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055361.23782.7126571431592196868.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I was once caught in a heavy hailstorm in Jodhpur on a warm day in April.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jan 18 17:11:24 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 12:11:24 -0500
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
In-Reply-To: <INDOLOGY%2000011812181018@LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <161227055375.23782.8353417618352397560.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Do languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish
>between the
>ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous), subspecies Khur?
>[Sanskrit doen't seem to.]

Of course it does:

* horse = azva (Avest. aspa) (and many poetic names such as arvant, vaajin,
haya etc.)
* ass/donkey =  khara (Avest. xara), gardabha (cf. EJVS 1999), rAsabha (RV)
* hemione/wild ass/onager  = parasvat- RV, AV++ (both in connection with
sex, as typical for the ass until today... study Indian abuse terms!
gardabha > Panj. ... gadhA etc, etc.); cf. also  VadhS.  gaura (below)

* A mule, offspring of  donkey & horse, is azvatara ('more on the side of
the horse'):  why this name if there was no difference between horse and
donkey as has been maintained in a recent email??

The hemione may also be mentioned in VadhB (Soma section)  by gaura 'pale,
whitish', which fits the color of the wild ass/hemionus/onager quite well.
It occurs in a list of animals, always of lower quality, next to the 5
standard animals of the Veda: thus :
azva horse, gaura "?";
gauH cow, gavaya (wild buffalo, bos gavaeus),
avi sheep, uSTRa camel (!)
aja goat, zarabha (any horned wild animal)

The dictionaries, of course, take gaura as wild buffalo as well; -- in need
of detailed investigation...

***

Modern languages are  quite another point. Some 3000 ++ years time
difference. e.g., most have substituted Skt. ghoTaka for azva... etc.

Horse:
Avestan: aspa
NW:     asp already in Alexander's biographers);
        wus'up (Nuristani/Kafiri)
        a'sp (Kohistani), and similarly, in other Dardic  languages (minus
Kashmiri)
Panjabi:        This and other New Indo-Aryan languages  have substituted
ghoRa etc (later Vedic, Skt. ghoTaka) for older azva:  W/E. Panj.  ghoRa
etc.
Sindhi: ?
Gujarati:       ghoRA;

Donkey:
Avestan:        xara; Skt. khara, gardabha
NW      kur, korU (Nuristani), Dardic :  khAr etc.; gadA, gada(Ro)
Panjabi:        khar; gadhA
Sindhi:         kharu, ?
Gujarati:       khar, gaddho
etc. etc.

Hemione/Onager/wild ass:
parasvant-, apparently not retained in modern languages which have  khor...
, probably from Skt. khara, but -o- would rather point to Skt. *khaura! ---
probbaly a mix (cross) of Skt. khara and gaura > gor-  (as in Sindhi goro,
Panj. gorA 'whitish etc.').
(cf.also Late Ved. khora 'lame'??? -- as a term of abuse)

> (1) E. asinus is native to North Africa and neighboring parts of Asia;
> (2)All domestic donkeys seem to be E. asinus;
> (3) E. heminous is native to Iran and NW India ... but never
>seems to have been domesticated.

What about the hemione (onager) in Iran/Mesopotamia? It *was* used as
draught animal early on. But given up when the horse was introduced from
the north early in the 2nd mill. BCE.

>Note that any reference to wild asses in India must be to the Khur.

If hemionus is intended.  Details/Summary  in R. Meadow 1999 (The
Transition to Agriculture in the Old World. The Review of Archaeology
(Special Issue ed. by Ofer Bar-Yosef) 19, 1998, 12-21 with earlier
references).

> Herodotus must be saying that Indians in Darius' army used
> hemiones (also) to draw chariots.

Indeed, Her. 7. 86 has: hippoi kai onoi agrioi 'horses and wild donkeys' as
draught animals -- a study of  the Greek term is asked for ... Any
possessors of the Greek thesaurus CD ?? -- Strange for this period. The
Veda++ often talks of mule chariots...




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Tue Jan 18 12:18:09 2000
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 12:18:09 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055363.23782.8249353292681727427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

This reminds me of a question I have been searching for an answer to: Do
languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish between the
ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous), subspecies Khur?
[Sanskrit doen't seem to.]

At the risk of wasting bandwidth and boring many, it may be worthwile to
point out that (1) E. asinus is native to North Africa and neighboring
parts of Asia; (2)All domestic donkeys seem to be E. asinus; (3) E.
heminous is native to Iran and NW India (though it had a bigger range 5000
BP, extending further North) and the status of the Tibetian E. seems to be
contested (another species or just a subspecies of E. heminous?) but never
seems to have been domesticated.

Note that any reference to wild asses in India must be to the Khur. In
particular, Herodotus must be saying that Indians in Darius' army used
hemiones (also) to draw chariots.

Tamil ivuli (sp?) refers to the horse. If so, its inherited status would
seem to put strong constraints on the entry of Tamil into S. India. The
other suggestion, (apparently first suggested by McAlpin) that it was
transferred from the hemione to the horse has equally interesting
implications.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Tue Jan 18 13:59:19 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 13:59:19 +0000
Subject: available now
In-Reply-To: <00bc01bf6175$24c4ac00$77c9c5cb@gias>
Message-ID: <161227055365.23782.15761145258490608465.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Publishers are NOT allowed to advertise on this list.  (Authors are
encouraged to announce their own publications.)

Your subscription to the list is being cancelled.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 18 22:04:58 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 14:04:58 -0800
Subject: Noah's Flood
Message-ID: <161227055381.23782.1671391509949295827.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In the Ryan-Pitman purana-type book linking the biblical flood
legend to the actual flood 8000 yrs old, it is interesting that
Indian stories are not mentioned. This book is popular in the US
newspapers; Miami Herald had the story in the front page.
I read the book when it was first released.

The ancient Tamil sangam legends where the lands and
books are said to have been lost engulfed by the Southern Sea, and
in Matsyapurana,  Manu giving protection to the fish at the Malaya
mountain, and Bhagavatham saying that Satyavrata, the pious Draavi.da king
was saved by the fish, - can also be considered.

Best,
V. Iyer

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK  Tue Jan 18 14:44:50 2000
From: dominic.goodall at WOLFSON.OXFORD.AC.UK (Dominic Goodall)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 14:44:50 +0000
Subject: aaha with past sense
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0001181358250.2779-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227055368.23782.3252375263677221232.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Can anyone point me to any useful secondary literature on the use of the
defective verb aaha with past sense (contravening Paa.nini
3.4.84+anuv.rtti)? Does anyone happen to know when the awkwardness of this
usage was first explained away by declaring aaha to be
`[kaalasaamaanyavaacakas] ti"nantapratiruupako nipaata.h'?

Dominic Goodall




From vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 19 00:44:00 2000
From: vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM (nanda chandran)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 16:44:00 -0800
Subject: on zankara's date
Message-ID: <161227055383.23782.8812012702940287441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Is Manikkavacakar talking about Jayaraasi of the 8th century?
>Jayarasibhatta is partial towards madhyamika while harsh on others
>(Eli Franco's thesis). The south had many "Middle Way" teachers,
>did Jayarasi learn it there? Does the TiruvAcakam refer to
>MaNDana as the mayavadim like later Kashmir Shaivaites?

I've read a section of the Tattvopaplavasimha, where JayarAshi while
refuting the tenets of various schools, also discusses the Atman theory of
VedAnta. But the only problem is that the VedAnta discussed is not Advaitam
- seems closer to the bheda-bheda variety. That itself seems to be strange,
since JayarAshi's date is post-Shankaran and pre-RAmAnujan. Could anybody
clarify whether he discusses Advaitam anywhere else in the work?

The reason for JayarAshi to be partial towards the MAdhyamikas may be that
they too like him denied the ultimate validity of empirical knowledge. But
they are not alone in this - for Advaitam too denies it.

But then NAgArjuna unlike the Advaitins doesn't speculate - he stops where
reason stops. This plus the fact that the LOkAyatas were traditionally
anti-Vedic might have brought the MAdhyamikas closer to the LOkAyata
dialectician than the Advaitins.

I doubt if the "hurricane" refered to by MAnikkavAchagar is Mandana. It has
to be Shankara for legends describe him travelling the length and breath of
the land, challenging philosophers of rival schools and defeating them. He
is not very tolerant about views that contradict the shruti. Plus the fact
is that, the AchArya's works reveal a passion for dialectic and debate and
also a missionary zeal to set the house right with absolute confidence in
his philosophy.

Hurricane? An apt description.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM  Wed Jan 19 04:47:35 2000
From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 20:47:35 -0800
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055386.23782.18020478912622502849.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

but rather "Today what
would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita school call the accent
marked by a vertical line above the syllable and chanted by him as a high
note, and what would he call the unmarked syllable chanted by him as a
midnote?"
In other words "Is the naming of the accents in the introduction of this
chanting book an error?"

Many thanks in advance,


Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747
[Krishna Kalale]


[Krishna Kalale]  The letter with a vertical line on top - is known as
udAtta (high note)
The letter unmarked is svarita (middle note)  and the letter with a
horizontal line (like a minus sign) below it is known as anudAtta.
   (lower note)


[Krishna Kalale]  In fact there is another note :  ie. a letter marked with
two vertical lines on top - for this letter a double high note is uttered
which has to be heard to know what the sound exactly is.  However, many
books do not have this double vertical marks even though while chanting
this has to be used.  THis is because according to chanting rules one could
derive the double notes from other notes and letter sequences.  However
many Brahmins, even those who have learnt vedas through a guru, do not know
the chanting rules very well and they only know how to read what notes are
written in the books.

This is what is understood by many brahmin priests atleast in south india.

Krishna Kalale
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Jan 19 03:06:52 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 22:06:52 -0500
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055384.23782.135676076433267528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A chanting book I have of the Rudram from the Taittiriya Samhita with an
accompanying tape of Brahmin Priests from that school reciting the text
agrees with the description by Wayne Howard (in Vedic Recitation in Varanasi
page 191) of the musical realization of the Taittiriya school.  I.e. in
relation to the pitch of unmarked syllables the syllables that have an
underline are a major second below in pitch, and the syllables marked with a
verticle line above them are a minor second above in pitch.  But in the
introduction of the chanting book where it describes the names and meanings
of the vedic accents it names the accent indicated by a verticle line above
the syllable (which Wayne Howard and everyone else I've heard calls svarita)
as udAtta.  It names the unmarked syllables as svarita, and the syllables
with an underline as anudAtta.  The exact quote of the accents description
in the introduction (in Hindi) is as follows:

I'm using HK convention (& indicates chandrabindu,M anusvara):

udAtta [it shows a picture of akara with a verticle line above it here]
(sirapar khaDI) svar ke tIna bhedeM meM se ek ; U&cA svar |

anudAtta [it shows a picture of akara with an underline here] (nIce ADI
lakIr) udAtta kA ulaTA; nIcA svar |

svarita [it shows a picture of akara with no accent marks here] (cinharahit)
udAtta aur anudAtta ke bIc kA; madhyam svar |

Is the naming of the accents in this chanting books introduction an error or
is it that WITHIN THE TRADITION OF THE TAITTIRIYA SAMHITA syllables marked
by a vertical line above (and chanted as a high note) are called udAtta and
unmarked syllables (chanted as a midnote) called svarita?

My main interest is not so much the issues about these accents that Wayne
Howard discusses on pages 93 to 106 of "Vedic Recitation in Varanasi" i.e.
the original meaning of udAtta, anudAtta and svarita, but rather "Today what
would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita school call the accent
marked by a vertical line above the syllable and chanted by him as a high
note, and what would he call the unmarked syllable chanted by him as a
midnote?"
In other words "Is the naming of the accents in the introduction of this
chanting book an error?"

Many thanks in advance,


Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Tue Jan 18 19:46:03 2000
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 00 22:46:03 +0300
Subject: Death in Theravada Buddhism
In-Reply-To: <200001090634.AAA75748@mail1.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055379.23782.443227218235173081.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is a lot of information which may prove to be useful in the old
article by L.de la Vallee Poussin "Death and Disposal of the Dead (Buddhist)"
in: Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. by J.
Hastings, vol. IV, Edinburgh, 1911, pp. 446-449.

---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:40 +0300 MSK




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Jan 19 12:11:31 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 07:11:31 -0500
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
In-Reply-To: <20000119030653.52094.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055393.23782.7091982622692427504.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The written accentuation of the TS is not very different from the RV and
basically the same rules of prosody apply.  There is a reason for
misunderstanding the syllable with a vertical line as Udaatta, because
Udaatta is supposed to be the high note.  In reality, the syllable with
the vertical line above is always a Svarita, the syllable with the
horizontal line underneath is called Sannatara, a prosodic transformation
of the Anudaatta, and the unmarked syllables are either Udaatta or a
variety of Anudaatta.  The ancient recitational traditions recorded in the
Praatizaakhyas make it clear that the Svarita is not a middle pitch, but a
composite syllable with an initial Udaatta segment followed by an
Anudaatta segment.  This initial portion of the Svarita, according to a
number of Praatizaakhya traditions is uttered as Udaattatara, higher than
the pitch of the Udaatta.  Similarly, an Anudaatta syllable before an
Udaatta becomes Sannatara, lower than the normal level of Anudaatta, and
is marked with a horizontal line underneath.  Thus, the written notation
captures the "higher than the high Udaatta" nature of the Svarita's
initial segment with a vertical line above, and the "lower than Anudaatta"
nature of the Sannatara syllable with a horizontal line underneath.  The
unmarked Udaatta and Anudaatta syllables are often not distinguished in
recitational pitch, both collapsing into a middle pitch, a sort of default
from which one moves up (for Svarita) and down (for Sannatara).
        However, since most reciters do not know the rules of accents, and
carry a belief that the high note is Udaatta, mid note is Svarita, and the
low note is Anudaatta, a mistaken belief about Svarita as Udaatta does
result.  Hope this explains some of the confusion.  Best,
                                        Madhav Deshpande

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Harry Spier wrote:

> A chanting book I have of the Rudram from the Taittiriya Samhita with an
> accompanying tape of Brahmin Priests from that school reciting the text
> agrees with the description by Wayne Howard (in Vedic Recitation in Varanasi
> page 191) of the musical realization of the Taittiriya school.  I.e. in
> relation to the pitch of unmarked syllables the syllables that have an
> underline are a major second below in pitch, and the syllables marked with a
> verticle line above them are a minor second above in pitch.  But in the
> introduction of the chanting book where it describes the names and meanings
> of the vedic accents it names the accent indicated by a verticle line above
> the syllable (which Wayne Howard and everyone else I've heard calls svarita)
> as udAtta.  It names the unmarked syllables as svarita, and the syllables
> with an underline as anudAtta.  The exact quote of the accents description
> in the introduction (in Hindi) is as follows:
>
> I'm using HK convention (& indicates chandrabindu,M anusvara):
>
> udAtta [it shows a picture of akara with a verticle line above it here]
> (sirapar khaDI) svar ke tIna bhedeM meM se ek ; U&cA svar |
>
> anudAtta [it shows a picture of akara with an underline here] (nIce ADI
> lakIr) udAtta kA ulaTA; nIcA svar |
>
> svarita [it shows a picture of akara with no accent marks here] (cinharahit)
> udAtta aur anudAtta ke bIc kA; madhyam svar |
>
> Is the naming of the accents in this chanting books introduction an error or
> is it that WITHIN THE TRADITION OF THE TAITTIRIYA SAMHITA syllables marked
> by a vertical line above (and chanted as a high note) are called udAtta and
> unmarked syllables (chanted as a midnote) called svarita?
>
> My main interest is not so much the issues about these accents that Wayne
> Howard discusses on pages 93 to 106 of "Vedic Recitation in Varanasi" i.e.
> the original meaning of udAtta, anudAtta and svarita, but rather "Today what
> would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita school call the accent
> marked by a vertical line above the syllable and chanted by him as a high
> note, and what would he call the unmarked syllable chanted by him as a
> midnote?"
> In other words "Is the naming of the accents in the introduction of this
> chanting book an error?"
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
>
> Harry Spier
> 371 Brickman Rd.
> Hurleyville, New York
> USA 12747
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jan 19 10:09:58 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 10:09:58 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055388.23782.18134359225938770119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
> > Do languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish
> >between the >ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous),
subspecies Khur?
> >[Sanskrit doen't seem to.]
> 
> Of course it does...

Vedic doesn't seem to distinguish so finely, using as'va as a generic term to
connote the equus family...

Here is a quote from Rigveda Khilasukta 1.5 (Bhandarkar Oriental Series No.
27, 1995 by Usha R. Bhise; this work also validates my interpretation of soma
as electrum, cikli_ta son of s'ri_; on this later):

va_sa_tyau citrau jagato nidha_nau dya_va_bhu_mi_ s'r.n.utam rodasi_m me
ta_vas'vina_ ra_sabha_s'va_ havam me s'ubhaspati_ a_gatam su_ryaya_m saha

Trans. As'vina_ having shining equus are the wonderful treasures of the world.
O Heaven and Earth, please listen (to me), Rodasi_ (listen to me). Those
As'vins have braying-equus. O lords of beauty attend to my call along with
Su_rya_.

Many more such instances can be cited.

Methinks, this verse substantiates, as rightly surmised by Dr. Vidyanatha Rao,
the use of the word as'va as a generic term which can be qualified as the
poetics demand, to connote a hemione or asinus or caballus...

Regards,
Kalyanaraman


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jan 19 10:27:17 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 10:27:17 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055390.23782.14218134220377698320.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidhyanath Rao <rao.3 at OSU.EDU> wrote:
> This reminds me of a question I have been searching for an answer to: Do
> languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish between the
> ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous), subspecies Khur? >
[Sanskrit doen't seem to.]


Punjabi has the followins semantic expansions attesting to the use of as'va as
a reference to any (animal) which leads, can be mounted, yoked etc.:

aswa_r = mounted, riding (on anything); a rider, a mounted soldier
aswa+ro+ cpmveuamce (as a horse, elephant, camel, carriage etc.)

Regards,
Kalyanaraman


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jan 19 15:47:55 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 10:47:55 -0500
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
In-Reply-To: <20000119043958.16121.qmail@nwcst268.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <161227055395.23782.178157022509623846.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Let me be blunt, finally: Do we have to react to any crackpot theory?
If so, we can stop reading, teaching, researching...
I answer, one more time here, then : tuuznIM bhaviSyAmi.

Dr. Kalyanaraman wrote:
>>> Do languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish
>>>between the ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous),
subspecies Khur [Sanskrit doen't seem to.]
>> Of course it does...
>Vedic doesn't seem to distinguish so finely, using as'va as a generic term to
>connote the equus family...
>Here is a quote from Rigveda Khilasukta 1.5 (Bhandarkar Oriental Series No.
>27, 1995 by Usha R. Bhise; ....:
>
>va_sa_tyau citrau jagato nidha_nau dya_va_bhu_mi_ s'r.n.utam rodasi_m me
>ta_vas'vina_ ra_sabha_s'va_ havam me s'ubhaspati_ a_gatam su_ryaya_m saha
>
>Trans. As'vina_ having shining equus are the wonderful treasures of the world.
>O Heaven and Earth, please listen (to me), Rodasi_ (listen to me). Those
>As'vins have braying-equus. O lords of beauty attend to my call along with
>Su_rya_.

It is well known (since Coomaraswamy, JAOS c. 1941) that the Azvins, as a
lower class of gods (with dubious human connections as doctors, see
Filliozat, Medicine),

*ride horses*  and *drive a chariot drawn by donkeys* (cf. RV 1.34.9;
8.85.7; 1.116.2), while pakka/proper gods (and Ksatriyas) do not ride
horses but *drive horse-drawn chariots.*

(Even the Mesopotanians (c. 1750 BCE) made fun of a king who boasted that
he had rode a horse over a long distance...)

Many details in H. Falk, Das Reitpferd im Vedischen Indien. Die
Indogermanen und das Pferd. [Akten des Internationalen interdisziplinaren
Kolloquiums. Freie Universitat Berlin, 1.-3. Juli 1992, Bernfried Schlerath
zum 70.Geburtstag gewidmet], ed. by B. Hansel, Stefan Zimmer et  al.
Budapest 1995, pp. 91-101

The quote above (ra_sabha_s'va_ )  lists both! There is, after all, a
Dvanda compound in Sanskrit. Here turned into a Bahuvriihi:  'the Ashvin
who possess horses and donkeys' ... (NB cannot check the accents here as
they are not quoted).

And, the passage alludes to Suuryaa's marriage procession (RV 10.86.13-17).
Note that all of this is mythology. Only the Ashvins/Suuryaa ride on a
three-wheeler (which is = manas!)

I still want to see such a chariot in real life, or a Vedic three-wheeler
(tricakra)  in archaeology. Or did the Vedic Indians (the Ashvins?) also
invent, in addition to all sorts of superhuman tools & weapons, the
obnoxious, fuel spluttering Tempo  (riksha, sam-lo) ???

For the three-wheeler see RV   :
1.118.2 Ashvin's chariot; (A. asked for milk giving cows,temparamental
horses (arvant)
1.157.3 Ashvin's chariot having quick horses (jIra-aZvaH) -- this could
speak in your favor but remains isolated (next to 1.191.5, both hymns by
the same poet, Diirghatamas Aucathya! Maybe he had another concept than the
other poets) -- Note that jIrAzva- is also used of Agni (Again by
Diirghatamas and in 2.4.2).-- More evidence outside *myth* and *one poet*
is required!!
1.183.1 Ashvin's chariot with 3 seats, 3 wheels, ...
4.36.1 Rbhus' chariot 'without horses'... (anazvo jaato..rathas) --the
automobile?
8.58.3  Ashvin's chariot  at dawn
10.41.1 Ashvin's chariot in the morning
10.85.14  Ashvin's chariot for Suuryaa's marriage (with one hidden wheel)


                                ********

Vedic people are keen observers of nature, after all, and we, too,
depending on our background,distinguish *inside* a group/species and do not
lump fishes and whales together.

Those who want to lump horses and asses together have to do two (or more)
things:

(1) check all (Vedic) passages where azva 'horse' and
khara/gardabha/raasabha 'donkey' and parasvant/gaura? 'hemione' and
azvatara 'mule' are used without distinction. (cf. above!)

Horse and donkey are clearly distinguished at RV 3.53.24. (na gardabham
puro azvaan nayanti); note 3.53.5 (with Geldner's comment!!);  (interesting
also 1.164.21 horse instead of donkey;  and  compare between 8.55.3 and
8.56.3).

(2) check all passages where words for neighing (krand, etc.), braying (nu,
ciit kR, khara-naada etc.) are used. Also, cf. maa 'to bellow', raa 'to
bark'.  They are distinguished.

(3) Also, are  donkeys hunted?  hemiones ridden?  These areas are
fundamentally separate for the Vedic Indians (graama :: araNya).

Only then can they maintain that azva = caballus, hemionus, asinus.
If not, we can trust our lexicographical pitaraH.

>Many more such instances can be cited.
Please do.

>Methinks, this verse substantiates, as rightly surmised by Dr. Vidyanatha Rao,
>the use of the word as'va as a generic term which can be qualified as the
>poetics demand, to connote a hemione or asinus or caballus...

Nope.  See above.

As I said, we have to look for real asses elsewhere.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: attachment.bin
Type: text/enriched
Size: 4954 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000119/3698bfae/attachment.bin>

From SSRVJ at AOL.COM  Wed Jan 19 16:33:50 2000
From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 11:33:50 -0500
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055398.23782.12374546665487583379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 01/18/2000 11:21:38 PM EST, kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM writes:

<<  However  many Brahmins, even those who have learnt vedas through a guru,
do not know the chanting rules very well and they only know how to read what
notes are
 written in the books. >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
What sri .Krishna Kalale (I understand his grandfather's name is
sri.Garudaachar-so sri.Krishna must be from South India-Mysore-Mandayam) says
is CORRECT as for as what is followed in South India.But I beg to differ of
what he/she says (quoted above).Those who have learned from a recognised
"Veda Paatasaala" for about 7-8. years- and "approved" "Ganapaatis"-don't use
any books at all.and their chanting of Udhaattam/Svaritham/Anudhaattam and
the double bar--II-- some times it is called "Deerka Svaritham" is absolutely
flawless,because they hear(Sruthi) repeatedly each word from the Teacher and
recite till the Teacher and  Vidvad Sadas(learned gatherings)are satisfied it
is "Flawless" .Only people like me who use a book and a tape recite
wrongly.-learned scholars don't agree with our recitation.The "Spicies" of
"Ganapaatis" are fastly disappearing.-"Endangered Spcies".In 1952 in my small
village alone there were 15 Ganapaatis.For the One Indian Rupee (2
U.S..copper pennies) which my grand father would give Sri.Ramanatha Ganapaati
would recite the entire Taittriya Samhita with "Ganam" in 6 hours.In 1997
when my mother passed away in 170 villges (full district)I could not locate
even one Ganapati to perform my mother's last rites even for 100 U.S.Dollars--




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jan 19 11:49:31 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 11:49:31 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055391.23782.5795011692591785528.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Vidhyanath Rao <rao.3 at OSU.EDU> wrote:
> > This reminds me of a question I have been searching for an answer to: Do
languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish between the
ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous), subspecies Khur?
[Sanskrit doen't seem to.]

I apologise for the bloomer in a line in my earlier posting; it should read:

Punjabi has the followins semantic expansions attesting to the use of as'va as
a reference to any (animal) which leads, can be mounted, yoked etc.:

aswa_r = mounted, riding (on anything); a rider, a mounted soldier
aswa_ri_ = conveyance (as a horse, elephant, camel, carriage etc.) (Is this
cognate with as'va_ro_ha = rider? (CDIAL 929) In Gujarati: sava_r (fr.
as'va_ro_ha Skt.) = a rider.

I may add that as'vatara refers to a mule. Pali lexicon (Rhys Davids) has this
note: assatara = val.ava_ya gadrabhena ja_ta.

Regards,
Kalyanaraman

_________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com.


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Jan 19 17:16:19 2000
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 12:16:19 -0500
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
In-Reply-To: <009401bf6144$e1a1a200$b026893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055399.23782.13396910179763434311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Actually, I have a question about hail in Classical Skt.

In the KAzyapaparivarta, we have the word azani. Now, in Skt we have
the term azaniprapAta, in which context the term seems to mean
"lightning/thunderbolt." However, Tib and Chin translations of the
KAzyapaparivarta all point to the sense of "hail", and a similar
sense is found in the Abhidharmakoza and  in the Bodhisattvabhumi
(Chin corresponding to Skt), but in the last however Tib seems
uncertain, once translating hail, once lightning (thog vs. ser ba)!!

Usually azani refers to something dangerous which falls to the ground
and injures crops. M Yano once suggested to me that it might mean
thunderbolts which fall to the ground, but I wonder about this. Any
thoughts??


Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Yale University
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jan 19 22:03:34 2000
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 14:03:34 -0800
Subject: Etymology: sambar, the dish?
Message-ID: <161227055407.23782.8212974341463535725.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Someone on this thread had asked for the word for
saambaar in Udupi, since the area around is bilingual
in kannada and tulu, the word in kannada is huli
(huLi) and the word in tulu is kodyel. Saambaar is
probably used more often in urban areas.

Nikhil

--- Ashok Aklujkar <aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA> wrote:
> A few hours ago at dinner I expressed the guess that
> the word
> sambar/saambaar is probably related to the Sanskrit
> word sa.mbhaara
> 'provisions, requisites, things required for any
> action or project,
> assemblage' (Apte's dictionary, expanded by Gode
> etc.,  p. 1650; I would
> expect other dictionaries too to contain the word).
> I just happened to read
> that Professor Georg v. Simson has already pointed
> out attestations that
> provide semantic support to my guess. His sa.mvara,
> as well as sa.mbala
> 'provision for a journey, viaticum,' in Apte p.
> 1648, could be later or
> dialectal variations of sa.mbhara/sa.mbhaara.
>
> -- ashok aklujkar
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Jan 19 20:22:36 2000
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 15:22:36 -0500
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
In-Reply-To: <007901bf62b2$152af220$ac22893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055405.23782.12812546733397053586.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Actually, the source of my enquiry about hail was the
>Kaa'syapa-parivarta -- I'm just finishing off a translation for
>publication.   Given the importance of this early Mahayana text, I was
>trying to determine whether there is any data in the text that might
>help pinpoint its place of origin.  Like you, I have noted the
>apparent disparity in meaning for the term "a'sani".  However, I
>suspect that "hail" is the correct meaning here since Sthiramati's
>commentary (both Tib & Ch) explains that this phenomenon causes wounds
>or injuries -- lightning would, I imagine, normally result in death.
>
>Since you are possibly also doing some work on the KP, do you have any
>ideas about the identity of the "u.s.tra-dhuumaka" insect/worm ?

well, .... actually I've been studying this text for about 15 years.
I have been preparing a new edition of the Skt, critical edition of
Tib + 5 (!) Chinese translations, English translation with extensive
notes (with G M Nagao)...  (+ plans to re-edit the Cy with full
parallels from the Yogacarabhumi)...  I'll look forward very much to
your translation, which I will study with care! (Where & when will it
be published?)

I agree with you that azani means hail here, although the word still
puzzles me.

As for our old friend camel-smoke, I'm stumped. Perhaps all I have to
add is that in BHSD Edgerton's indication that Das's Tib-Eng Dict
gives "full confirmation of the KP passage" is vitiated by the fact
that the Tib quoted by Das is the Tib trans of KP!



Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Yale University
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Wed Jan 19 19:18:30 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 00 19:18:30 +0000
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055401.23782.11661980533541296017.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello, Jonathan !

Actually, the source of my enquiry about hail was the
Kaa'syapa-parivarta -- I'm just finishing off a translation for
publication.   Given the importance of this early Mahayana text, I was
trying to determine whether there is any data in the text that might
help pinpoint its place of origin.  Like you, I have noted the
apparent disparity in meaning for the term "a'sani".  However, I
suspect that "hail" is the correct meaning here since Sthiramati's
commentary (both Tib & Ch) explains that this phenomenon causes wounds
or injuries -- lightning would, I imagine, normally result in death.

Since you are possibly also doing some work on the KP, do you have any
ideas about the identity of the "u.s.tra-dhuumaka" insect/worm ?

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Jan 20 07:03:33 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 07:03:33 +0000
Subject: cikli_ta and s'ri_: soma and prosperity
Message-ID: <161227055409.23782.7935859145196718027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hi,
Cross-posted from indo_iranian list:

 Haoma yasna is a relic of the Soma yajn~a, after the
 quartz was substituted by a 'plant' in the ritual
 version of the earlier metallurgical process
 elaborated in the Rigveda.

 Please browse the url http://sarasvati.listbot.com;
 Click on View the List Archive; message #87:Cikli_ta,
 son of S'ri_: Soma, electrum, son of prosperity. This
 message announces a paradigm shift in Vedic studies. 

 Soma was indeed a quartz purified to yield gold and
 silver using fire and other sacrificial materials
 which are the devata_ names (na_man). A na_man is a
 san~jna_; many are api_cya (hidden). The A_pri (RV
 5.5.10) asks Vanaspati to carry oblations to a region
 where the secret names of gods are known. The name of
 soma in such a region is known to inmates of the
 region but not to his parents (RV 9.75.2). Soma, when
 purified flows to a good and secret name (RV 9.96.16).
 Soma gets the secret name (RV 9.75.2)during
 purification byu Sotr. In this setting, ghr.ta_ is
 also a devata_ (RV 4.58.10-11). Hiran.ya (zaran.ya in
 Av.) is mentioned in the Khilasu_kta of Rigveda (4.6):
 Verses 5 and 6: "The gold which is produced from Agni
 has becfome immortality among men. One who knows this
 deserves to have it. One who holds it does of old age.
 This secret which is known to king Varun.a, known to
 goddess Sarasvati_, known to Indra, the killer of
 Vr.tra, may it be conducive to my vital energy and
 long life."

 Regards,
 Dr. S. Kalyanaraman

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jan 20 17:31:16 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 09:31:16 -0800
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055427.23782.5779184659966661715.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sangam texts mention hail-storm, Eg., pati.r.ruppattu 84:22-23:
"vi.n.tu mu_n_niya puyal ne.tuG kAlai
kal cErpu mA mazai". Hailstorms are "kalmazai"/"kalmAri", both mean
'stone-rain' and are usually accompanied by lightning, etc.,
"kA.r.rum, veGka_nalum, kArum, iTiyum, kal mazaiyum eGkum" -villipAratam
(="Heavy winds, powerful lightnings, dark clouds, thunder and
hail-rain everywhere"). Kambaramayanam calls arrows released from a bow
as "azani-rain" (cilai vazaGku aca_ni mAri).

The 8th century Jaina epic, cIvakacintAmaNi compares the
Benares king to Krishna lifting govardhanagiri to save people:
"kal mazaip po_n ku_n.ru Entik kaNa nirai a_n.ru kAttu
ma_n uyir i_n.ru kAkkum vAra.navAci ma_n_na_n-"
Later examples are many: "ko.n.tal kalmAriyai, mu_n_nam,
kOvartta_namE ku.taiyAka" - villipAratam.
Indra hurting cattle, yadhavs with hailstorms is common
in tamil. Does the motif of "VajrapA.ni creating hailstoms"
in the Krishna legend have anything to do with hail being called ashani?

Regards,
SM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Jan 20 09:26:27 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 10:26:27 +0100
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
In-Reply-To: <v04220810b4abcba23072@[130.132.185.171]>
Message-ID: <161227055412.23782.12307600110286985844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Concerning the discussion between Stephen Hodge and Jonathan Silk about the
meaning 'hail' for azani in the KAzyapa-parivarta:
Words derived from sanskrit azani in some modern Indo-aryan languages (like
Ashkun) seem also to mean 'hail', see Turner CDIAL 910. So it would be
worthwhile to examine whether the word in some of its occurrences has been
misunderstood by modern interpreters of Sanskrit texts.

Best regards,

Georg v. Simson




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jan 20 10:39:34 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 10:39:34 +0000
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
In-Reply-To: <007901bf62b2$152af220$ac22893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055414.23782.14640864535447844032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote:

> Since you are possibly also doing some work on the KP, do you have any
> ideas about the identity of the "u.s.tra-dhuumaka" insect/worm ?

U.s.tradhuuma is mentioned in Vaagbha.ta's A.s.taa"ngah.rdayasa.mhitaa
(ca. 600) in Uttaratantra 37.14, the chapter on insect and spider bites.
The verse goes like this

ucci.ti"ngas tu vaktre.na da"saty abhyadhikavyatha.h
saadhyato v.r"scikaat stambha.m "sophaso h.r.s.taromataam 13
karoti sekama"ngaanaa.m da.m"sa.h "siitaambuneva ca
u.s.tradhuuma.h sa evokto raatricaaraa ca raatrika.h 14

The Ucci.ti"nga bites with its mouth, causing very extreme pain, more than
(?) a scorpion which is treatable.  The penis is erect, the body hair
stands on end.  And one pours cold water on the limbs of the bite.  It is
in fact called the U.s.tradhuuma, or again the Raatrika because it comes
out at night.


The passage is in the context of scorpions, so it seems that the
ucci.ti"nga, u.s.tradhuuma, and raatrika are all names of something like a
scorpion.  But in verse 15, it is distinguished from a scorpion: "the
poison of the u.s.tradhuumaka, like the scorpion, mainly has an excess of
wind".  This wind connection is taken from Su"sruta (kalpasthaana, 8.5).

Su"sruta also says of the ucci.ti"nga that it is like the scorpion and
other creatures in that it's poison is in its sting (kalpa 3.5:
v.r"scikavi"svambharavara.tiiraajiivamatsyocci.ti"ngaa.h
samudrav.r"scikaa"s caalavi.saa.h | There are some variants on the word
for "sting", aala or aara, which the commentators discuss).



--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Jan 20 19:38:06 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 11:38:06 -0800
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055403.23782.9209215185775931973.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

"S.Kalyanaraman" wrote:
>
> Vidhyanath Rao <rao.3 at OSU.EDU> wrote:
> > This reminds me of a question I have been searching for an answer to: Do
> > languages of NW (including Gujarat, Sindh) reliably distinguish between the
> > ass/donkey (Equus asinus) and the hemione (E heminous), subspecies Khur? >
> [Sanskrit doen't seem to.]
>
> Punjabi has the followins semantic expansions attesting to the use of as'va as
> a reference to any (animal) which leads, can be mounted, yoked etc.:
>
> aswa_r = mounted, riding (on anything); a rider, a mounted soldier
> aswa+ro+ cpmveuamce (as a horse, elephant, camel, carriage etc.)
>

This is very interesting.

I wonder though can we date the Ramayana and Mahabharata using content?
I think that's difficult because of problems with interpolation,
understanding of archaic language, etc.

However, if we are to use the Vedas for semi-historical purposes,
chariots would be more revealing than horses.

Under present theories, when do Central Asian chariots first appear
in the Indian archaeological record?

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Thu Jan 20 17:06:48 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 12:06:48 -0500
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
In-Reply-To: <20000120085355.7854.qmail@www0r.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <161227055426.23782.6367894910875294345.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dr. Kalyanaraman:
>> >Many more such instances can be cited.
>Done. At http://sarasvati.listbot.com Click on View the List Archive;
>Message #88 As'va = Horse, ass (R.gveda)

Still  only mythology. Most dangerous for secure proof.... Needs detailed
study of the Azvins & Rbhus & Indra to come closer to a decision. Also, a
Vedic car made out of manas? and a Vedic tricycle??  :

>Khilasu_kta also purse the three-wheeled chariot imagery...more on this
>next month.

>For a true IE horse, see Prof. Carl Darling Buck's group 3.41 (Horse
>Generic) which seems to mention as'va only on the margin...

No, he always looks for *all*, divergent  expressions denoting a horse.
Misleading. Better:

Pokorny, J. Indogermanisches etymologisches Worterbuch, Bern/Munchen 1959
p. 301-302

which lists  relatives of azva (IE *ekwo-s, h1ekwo-s) from Iranian to
Keltic and Tocharian:

* in: Avestan, O. Persian, Ossetic; Greek, Thracian, Lycian; Latin,
O.Irish, O.Anglo-Saxon, O.Saxon, Gothic; Tocharian A +B --> Turkic;

* of fem. azvaa : in Avest., Lat., O.Lith.,

* of adj. azv(i)ya- in: in Avest., Greek, Lat., O. Prussian, Lithuanian.

* also in Pannonian, Illyrian, Tarentian, Epid.,  ...

It is no big news: if there is a well attested word  in virtually all IE
languages, it is the h1ekwo- the horse: Contra Rao quoted by Kalyanaraman...




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Jan 20 12:10:10 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 13:10:10 +0100
Subject: u.s.tra-dhuumaka (was: Skt vocabulary for: Hail)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0001200959250.3849-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227055415.23782.1534338816558646432.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dominik Wujastyk wrote:
>
>U.s.tradhuuma is mentioned in Vaagbha.ta's A.s.taa"ngah.rdayasa.mhitaa
>(ca. 600) in Uttaratantra 37.14, the chapter on insect and spider bites.
>The verse goes like this
>
>ucci.ti"ngas tu vaktre.na da"saty abhyadhikavyatha.h
>saadhyato v.r"scikaat stambha.m "sophaso h.r.s.taromataam 13
>karoti sekama"ngaanaa.m da.m"sa.h "siitaambuneva ca
>u.s.tradhuuma.h sa evokto raatricaaraa ca raatrika.h 14
>
>The Ucci.ti"nga bites with its mouth, causing very extreme pain, more than
>(?) a scorpion which is treatable.

Why not simply: "causing more (abhyadhika) pain than a scorpion ..."

> The penis is erect, the body hair
>stands on end.  And one pours cold water on the limbs of the bite.

Shouldn't we rather translate:
"#The bite (subject of the sentence!)# causes erection of the penis (read
"sephaso instead of "sophaso), the standing on end of the body hair, #and
the soaking of the limbs with cold water (= cold sweat)#"?

> It is
>in fact called the U.s.tradhuuma, or again the Raatrika because it comes
>out at night.
>
>The passage is in the context of scorpions, so it seems that the
>ucci.ti"nga, u.s.tradhuuma, and raatrika are all names of something like a
>scorpion.

But if it 'bites with its mouth', one would either think of a mosquito or -
rather - of a spider. Are there tarantulas in India? A tarantula would be
somewhat similar to a scorpion and its bite is extremely painful.

> But in verse 15, it is distinguished from a scorpion: "the
>poison of the u.s.tradhuumaka, like the scorpion, mainly has an excess of
>wind".  This wind connection is taken from Su"sruta (kalpasthaana, 8.5).
>
>Su"sruta also says of the ucci.ti"nga that it is like the scorpion and
>other creatures in that it's poison is in its sting (kalpa 3.5:
>v.r"scikavi"svambharavara.tiiraajiivamatsyocci.ti"ngaa.h
>samudrav.r"scikaa"s caalavi.saa.h | There are some variants on the word
>for "sting", aala or aara, which the commentators discuss).

If Su"sruta says that the ucciti"nga has the poison in its sting, he is
either wrong or he thinks of something else than Vagbhata, who says that
the animal bites with its mouth. Of course, Vagbhata too could be wrong.

Best regards,

G.v.Simson




From steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE  Thu Jan 20 12:33:47 2000
From: steiner at MAILER.UNI-MARBURG.DE (Roland Steiner)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 13:33:47 +0100
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
In-Reply-To: <v0422080bb4aba07b0c95@[130.132.185.171]>
Message-ID: <161227055417.23782.16775744451065267207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Jonathan,

Stephen Hodge wrote that he suspects

> that "hail" is the correct meaning here since Sthiramati's
> commentary (both Tib & Ch) explains that this phenomenon causes
> wounds or injuries -- lightning would, I imagine, normally result in
> death.

To this plausible interpretation I would like to add this footnote:
being struck by a"sani in the sense of ``thunderbolt", especially
as a literary image, does not necessarily cause death
immediately. This seems to be evident from stanza IV.26 (or 27
in some editions) in Har.sadeva?s play Naagaananda (7th
century), also according to the interpretation of the South Indian
commentator "Sivaraama (later than 12th cent.; perhaps
13th/14th cent.?). The stanza has to be recited by Garu.da who
has just reached the slaughter-stone in order to devour the
(supposed) Naaga lying there. Observing this Naaga (who is in
fact the bodhisattva Jiimuutavaahana) Garu.da declares that
now he will pierce through the Naaga?s breast with his beak
which is fiercer than an a"sani-da.n.da
(nirbhidyaa"sanida.n.daca.n.datarayaa ca~ncvaadhunaa
vak.sasi). "Sivaraama paraphrases: a"sanida.n.davad
da.n.daakaarakuli"savat ca.n.datarayaa etc., which makes it
clear that a"sanida.n.da here should mean ``thunderbolt" (indeed
a suitable object of comparison with regard to Garu.da?s beak).
The Tibetan Shong-ston (13th/14th cent.), a specialist in Sanskrit
kaavya, renders rdo rje?i dbyug pa (``stick of a thunderbolt
[vajra]") which is a literal translation of a"sani-da.n.da.

The story goes on to say that the continuous attack of Garu.da?s
beak (being similar to a thunderbolt) does not immediately result
in the death of the hero at all, but repeatedly wounds and injures
in a very cruel and prolonged way.

With kind regards,
Roland




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Thu Jan 20 14:23:55 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 14:23:55 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055410.23782.17842023992418603808.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU> wrote:
> >Many more such instances can be cited.
> Please do.

Done. At http://sarasvati.listbot.com Click on View the List Archive;
Message #88 As'va = Horse, ass (R.gveda)

The Khilasu_kta also purse the three-wheeled chariot imagery...more on this
next month.

For a true IE horse, see Prof. Carl Darling Buck's group 3.41 (Horse
Generic)which seems to mention as'va only on the margin...

Best regards,
Dr. S. Kalyanaraman


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Thu Jan 20 15:49:03 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 15:49:03 +0000
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055419.23782.5755797755537358869.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Hello, Roland !

>> that "hail" is the correct meaning here since Sthiramati's
>> commentary (both Tib & Ch) explains that this phenomenon causes
>> wounds or injuries -- lightning would, I imagine, normally result
in
.> death.

>To this plausible interpretation I would like to add this footnote:
>being struck by a"sani in the sense of ``thunderbolt", especially
>as a literary image, does not necessarily cause death
>immediately.

Thanks for your input and useful observations regarding the
lightning/hail mystery.   I am sure what you say is valid for kavya
type literature but in the context of the other examples given in the
KP for the effects of negative attitudes and behaviour, I feel that
non-lethal "lightning" does not fit so well.

I imagine the meaning "hail" is an extension by association of the
original meaning "lightning, thunderbolt".   Here in the UK we often
have thunder and lightning with hail.   Other solid lumps of matter
falling from the sky are also linked to lightning -- Tibetans thought
that meteoric iron and tektites were linked to thunderbolts, and I
have a vague recollection that there was a popular link between
diamonds and thunder-bolts (both = vajra).

Best wishes,
Stephen




From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK  Thu Jan 20 16:09:00 2000
From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 16:09:00 +0000
Subject: u.s.tra-dhuumaka (was: Skt vocabulary for: Hail)
Message-ID: <161227055422.23782.10415037540597501400.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

George v. Simonson wrote:

> But if it 'bites with its mouth', one would either think of a
mosquito or -
> rather - of a spider. Are there tarantulas in India? A tarantula
would be
> somewhat similar to a scorpion and its bite is extremely painful.

Probably not a lot of help but the KP says that this insect has a
black head and sleeps on its back.   The Tibetan version understands
the word as a kind of insect but the passage in question seems to be a
later interpolation since four out of the five Chinese versions do not
mention it at all while the latest version seems to think that it is
some kind of asterism or planet.

To me, the word image "camel smoke" suggests clouds of noxious insects
billowing around animals like camels.   Could some kind of biting fly
be intended -- in my younger days I was bitten many times by
horse-flies and clegs and these are extremely painful and usually
result in a badly infected wound.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Jan 20 17:07:14 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 18:07:14 +0100
Subject: u.s.tra-dhuumaka (was: Skt vocabulary for: Hail)
In-Reply-To: <007601bf6366$42237fe0$9f06893e@default>
Message-ID: <161227055423.23782.2179037901753664427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Stephen Hodge wrote:
>
>To me, the word image "camel smoke" suggests clouds of noxious insects
>billowing around animals like camels.   Could some kind of biting fly
>be intended -- in my younger days I was bitten many times by
>horse-flies and clegs and these are extremely painful and usually
>result in a badly infected wound.
>
I remember horse-flies and clegs very well - but they are not active at
night and their bite would hardly provoke cold sweat (if I interpreted
Vagbhata's verse correctly). I agree that the word "camel smoke" suggests
your interpretation, but then Vagbhata cannot be right identifying them
with "raatricaaraa ca raatrika.h". See also Turner CDIAL s.v. rAtrika,
where some modern derivation meaning "mosquito" is mentioned (I do not have
the book at hand right now). Mosquitoes are active at night indeed. How
trustworthy is Vagbhata in these matters, Dominik?

Best wishes

G.v.Simson




From r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO  Thu Jan 20 16:54:09 2000
From: r.l.schmidt at EAST.UIO.NO (Ruth Laila Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 18:54:09 +0200
Subject: u.s.tra-dhuumaka (was: Skt vocabulary for: Hail)
In-Reply-To: <v03110704b4acecc9bdf7@[129.240.19.27]>
Message-ID: <161227055429.23782.17859049279244765193.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Kindly compare go-dhuuli, the dust stirred up by the cattle when they
return from grazing at night. I have ridden camels in the desert on a
number of occasions, and never found them surrounded by noxious insects (I
don't know if they would attract them in moister climates, but camels tend
to be used in arid areas). However a string of camels in a caravan does
stir up drifting dust or sand. The question arises whether dust (dhuuli)
and smoke (dhuumaka) could be equated.

With best wishes,

Ruth Schmidt

G. v. Simson wrote:

>I remember horse-flies and clegs very well - but they are not active at
>night and their bite would hardly provoke cold sweat (if I interpreted
>Vagbhata's verse correctly). I agree that the word "camel smoke" suggests
>your interpretation, but then Vagbhata cannot be right identifying them
>with "raatricaaraa ca raatrika.h". See also Turner CDIAL s.v. rAtrika,
>where some modern derivation meaning "mosquito" is mentioned (I do not have
>the book at hand right now). Mosquitoes are active at night indeed. How
>trustworthy is Vagbhata in these matters, Dominik?

>Stephen Hodge wrote:
>>
>>To me, the word image "camel smoke" suggests clouds of noxious insects
>>billowing around animals like camels.   Could some kind of biting fly
>>be intended -- in my younger days I was bitten many times by
>>horse-flies and clegs and these are extremely painful and usually
>>result in a badly infected wound.
>>


***********************************************
Ruth Laila Schmidt
Dept of East European and Oriental Studies
University of Oslo
P.O. Box 1030 Blindern
N-0315 Oslo, Norway
Phone: (47) 22 85 55 86
Fax: (47) 22 85 41 40
Email: r.l.schmidt at east.uio.no




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Thu Jan 20 20:29:40 2000
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 20:29:40 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055433.23782.11752645848182345246.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To help keep me under the posting limits, I am combining replies to several
messages and not quoting the originals.

First of all, I did not attempt to give the impression that I consider
as'va to denote the Equus family (smilies needed here?) and I don't
understand how I did. My question was about the distinction between the ass
and the heminoe (or onager) which are two dsitinct species (donkey =
domesticated ass) but not always kept separate in writing or dictionaries.

I will also appreciate pointers to literature on the word parasvant. I
don't have access to EWA nor ready access to KEWA. Surya Kanta's dictionary
gives the meaning as rhinoceros which seems to go back to B"uhler, without
any reference to PW's suggestion of ``wild ass'' (thus the Khur). How to
decide?

Re: Witzel's question about the use of the hemione in ANE: I was
distinguishing between `tame' and `domesticated'. In fact failure to
domesticate the hemione is the reason usually given for why it was so
quickly abandoned when the domestic horse arrived. But apparently Indians
continued to breed horse-Khur hybrids (by driving mares into the forest).
J. Clutton-Brock cites some 18-19th c. travelogues to this effect.
May be relevant to Herodotus.




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Thu Jan 20 20:37:09 2000
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 00 20:37:09 +0000
Subject: Dating the Veda: Using the Horse and Planets
Message-ID: <161227055435.23782.2222258779137468812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:47:55 -0500, Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>
wrote:

>(Even the Mesopotanians (c. 1750 BCE) made fun of a king who boasted that
>he had rode a horse over a long distance...)

It might be noted that the letter ciritizing the riding of the horse
suggested that the king ride a mule instead if a vehicle was not wanted.
Littauer suggested that this may have to do with the continued use of the
``donkey seat'' in the ANE, which discomfits both the rider and the horse.
Alternatively, this may be due to the fact that horses (native to 35 deg N
and above) will sweat a lot more than donkeys or mules. In any case at that
time riding itself was apparently not so declasse.




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan 21 14:44:40 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 00 06:44:40 -0800
Subject: u.s.tra-dhuumaka (was: Skt vocabulary for: Hail)
Message-ID: <161227055442.23782.10533596159320902866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I think we have to abandon the idea of "clouds of obnoxious insects" and
>instead interpret the word uSTra-dhUmaka in a different way. I would now
>suggest that it refers to the animal's colour: dhUma could be a
>Sanskrit-misunderstanding of Prakrit dhUma < dhumma < Skt. dhUmra,
>"smoke-coloured". Thus uSTra-dhUmaka = "smoke-coloured like a camel".
>According to some Lexicographers (see Peterburger Woerterbuch or
>Monier-Williams Dictionary), dhUmraka (and acc. to Monier-Williams also
>dhUmra, in the TaittirIya-SamhitA) indeed means "camel" (= "the
>smoke-coloured animal)!
>If we take this together with the passage from Vagbhata quoted by Dominik,
>uSTradhUma(ka), also called uccitinga, should be a night-active,
>camel-coloured, poisonous spider (it is mentioned together with scorpions,
>but, as it "bites with its mouth", it is probably not a scorpion).

Indeed, spiders are camel-colored. Tamil has "o.t.tai/o.t.takam" = camel;
OTL entry: "o.t.ta.tai/o.t.ta.rai"=spider's web or dust, cob-web.
Also, N. KatiraivE.rpi.l.lai's dictionary (AES, Delhi reprint)
"o.t.ta.tai" = "pukaiyu.rai" (=flake of smoke (OTL))

When was KP written? Kanchi has Kacchapeshvara temple with
buddha and buddhist sculptures. Japan and India, a book released
on the occasion of Festival of India in Japan, has an article mentioning
the K. temple as originally buddhist Kaashyapa. I believe K. temple
buddhist pictures are in Archaeological atlas of Buddhist remains in
Tamil Nadu (1998).

Regards,
SM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Fri Jan 21 10:19:05 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 00 11:19:05 +0100
Subject: u.s.tra-dhuumaka (was: Skt vocabulary for: Hail)
In-Reply-To: <v0310280ab4aceb26717f@[129.240.19.139]>
Message-ID: <161227055436.23782.2622228916614388690.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Stephen Hodge wrote:
>>>
>>>To me, the word image "camel smoke" suggests clouds of noxious insects
>>>billowing around animals like camels.

Ruth Schmidt wrote:

>......... I have ridden camels in the desert on a
>number of occasions, and never found them surrounded by noxious insects
>
I think we have to abandon the idea of "clouds of obnoxious insects" and
instead interpret the word uSTra-dhUmaka in a different way. I would now
suggest that it refers to the animal's colour: dhUma could be a
Sanskrit-misunderstanding of Prakrit dhUma < dhumma < Skt. dhUmra,
"smoke-coloured". Thus uSTra-dhUmaka = "smoke-coloured like a camel".
According to some Lexicographers (see Peterburger Woerterbuch or
Monier-Williams Dictionary), dhUmraka (and acc. to Monier-Williams also
dhUmra, in the TaittirIya-SamhitA) indeed means "camel" (= "the
smoke-coloured animal)!
If we take this together with the passage from Vagbhata quoted by Dominik,
uSTradhUma(ka), also called uccitinga, should be a night-active,
camel-coloured, poisonous spider (it is mentioned together with scorpions,
but, as it "bites with its mouth", it is probably not a scorpion).

Best regards,

Georg v.Simson




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Jan 21 19:32:20 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 00 11:32:20 -0800
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055431.23782.3320204830627002097.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Konrad's post about the rising sea levels, I am slowly working on a
book project entitled "The Churning of the Milky Ocean."

The book is meant for general audiences and deals, among other things,
with various origin traditions linked with the Milky Ocean, which by all
accounts I'm aware of is located to the east.

Here is an outline of the first four chapters:

Chapter I - The Milky Ocean
Begins with the popular Indian myth of the battle between the Devas and
Asuras for the nectar known as amrita. Explains how this appears to be a
reference to a natural disaster that resulted in mass migration.
Examples are given of how myths and legends are often history altered
for the purpose of story-telling.

Chapter II - The Language Trail
This chapter will delve into the linguistic clues provided by the
proposed Austric language family. The author offers a radical new
language relationship theory based on original research. Explained in a
style that will be easy for the average reader to comprehend.

Chapter III - India: From the Milky Ocean to Jambudvipa
Were semi-mythical beings of Indian mythology known as Nagas, Yakkas and
Rakshasas really references, at least in part, to real peoples? Who were
the original "Aryans?" These questions will be tackled in this chapter.

Chapter IV - Floating on the Sea of Milk: The Identity of the Ancient
Sumerians We will explore the author's theory regarding the origin of
this enigmatic people and the linguistic research he has done to solve
this puzzle.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From roberto.donatoni at TISCALINET.IT  Fri Jan 21 13:45:40 2000
From: roberto.donatoni at TISCALINET.IT (Roberto Donatoni)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 00 14:45:40 +0100
Subject: Looking for studies on the Rbhu-s
Message-ID: <161227055438.23782.8039537328571447000.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List members,

Is there any good study on the Rbhu-s, giving a more exhaustive treatement
than that contained in the various handbooks on Vedic mythology? I've gone
through Dandekar, but found very little. Any suggestion?
Thank you,
        Sincerely,
                Roberto Donatoni







Roberto Donatoni
via Giovanni Milani, 1
Milano 20133
ITALY
tel./fax +39-2-70637733
E-mail: roberto.donatoni at tiscalinet.it




From g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO  Fri Jan 21 14:28:10 2000
From: g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO (Georg von Simson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 00 15:28:10 +0100
Subject: Looking for studies on the Rbhu-s
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000121144540.006870a4@pop.tiscalinet.it>
Message-ID: <161227055440.23782.15698905985019443913.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Roberto Donatoni asks:

>Is there any good study on the Rbhu-s, giving a more exhaustive treatement
>than that contained in the various handbooks on Vedic mythology? I've gone
>through Dandekar, but found very little. Any suggestion?

Exhaustive, but rather outdated is A. W. Ryder: Die Rbhus im Rgveda,
Leipzig 1901.
Did you find my small article "Die Rbhus im Rgveda: Jahreszeitengoetter
oder vergoettlichte Handwerker?", ZDMG, Suppl. III,2 (1977), p. 955-963?
It is well-hidden in Dandekar's bibliography. I mention some of the
literature up to then. I remember that George Thompson some years ago was
interested in the Rbhus. Perhaps he can give you some hints about more
recent literature?

Best regards

Georg v. Simson




From GthomGt at CS.COM  Sat Jan 22 02:04:50 2000
From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 00 21:04:50 -0500
Subject: Looking for studies on the Rbhu-s
Message-ID: <161227055446.23782.16894827091346044887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>?From 1995 to 1998 I published a series of articles on Vedic ritual speech
genres, and in the midst of that work I gathered material and wrote up a
rough draft on the Rbhus, as 'vergoettlichte Handwerker.'  After reading
Georg von Simson's 'small' but *important* article on the Rbhus, I decided to
refrain from publishing my paper until I could consider more fully both
aspects of the Rbhus, as Jahreszeitengoetter on the one hand, and as
vergoettlichte Handwerker on the other.

Since then Joel Brereton has undertaken a thorough examination of the RV Rbhu
cycle.  A preliminary version of his conclusions was presented at last year's
annual conference of the American Oriental Society, but to my knowledge his
paper has not yet been published.  Certainly, his work will bring you up to
date on the Rbhus, when it appears.

Best wishes,

George Thompson

In a message dated 1/21/00 9:32:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
g.v.simson at EAST.UIO.NO writes:

> Roberto Donatoni asks:
>
>  >Is there any good study on the Rbhu-s, giving a more exhaustive treatement
>  >than that contained in the various handbooks on Vedic mythology? I've gone
>  >through Dandekar, but found very little. Any suggestion?
>
>  Exhaustive, but rather outdated is A. W. Ryder: Die Rbhus im Rgveda,
>  Leipzig 1901.
>  Did you find my small article "Die Rbhus im Rgveda: Jahreszeitengoetter
>  oder vergoettlichte Handwerker?", ZDMG, Suppl. III,2 (1977), p. 955-963?
>  It is well-hidden in Dandekar's bibliography. I mention some of the
>  literature up to then. I remember that George Thompson some years ago was
>  interested in the Rbhus. Perhaps he can give you some hints about more
>  recent literature?
>
>  Best regards
>
>  Georg v. Simson
>




From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Fri Jan 21 23:59:56 2000
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 00:59:56 +0100
Subject: Recordings of Ramayana on music CD
Message-ID: <161227055444.23782.4878615499327090555.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaskar!

Dr. Leo Both of Bonn University (who is not on the list) has
asked me to forward the question if there are recordings of the
Valmiki Ramayana -- or parts of it -- on music CD, or perhaps
music interpretations that make use of the Sanskrit text. By
browsing through some web databases we have found something based
on Tulsi's Ramcaritmanas and Indonesian interpretations -- but
nothing that seems to be directly related to Valmiki's text.

Thanks in advance
Peter Wyzlic

--
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices." -- William James




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Sat Jan 22 14:44:07 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 09:44:07 -0500
Subject: Obituary for Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Rau
In-Reply-To: <B4A95049.9A2%emstern@bellatlantic.net>
Message-ID: <161227055452.23782.13963511056422880273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

To further echo, also from my own experience, Ashok Aklujkar's and Eliot
Stern's good words about our late colleague and friend W.Rau:

I am happy to be able to tell you that he agreed, last year, that his books
and long papers


--- Staat und Gesellschaft im alten Indien nach den Brahmana-Texten
dargestellt, Wiesbaden : O. Harrassowitz 1957
----, Metalle und Metallgeraete im vedischen Indien.  Akademie der
Wissenschaften zu Mainz, Abhandlungen der Geistes- u.
sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse 1973, No. 8, Wiesbaden : F. Steiner 1974,
pp. 649-682
-----, Ist Vedische Archaeologie moeglich? ZDMG Supplement III,1: 19.
Deutscher Orientalistentag. Vortraege. Wiesbaden 1977.
----, Zur vedischen Altertumskunde, Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Mainz,
Abhandlungen der Geistes- u. sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse 1983, No. 1.
Wiesbaden : F. Steiner 1983

(also included: ---, The Meaning of pur in Vedic Literature, [Abhandlungen
der Marburger Gelehrten Gesellschaft III/1]  Muenchen : W. Finck 1976)

and a quite few more, all on Vedic history/archaeology, be translated into
English. This will finally open up his important contributions for those
who cannot read German. I (or those involved) will report on the progress
of the project.




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Sat Jan 22 16:13:18 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 11:13:18 -0500
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
In-Reply-To: <388A0E42.33@del3.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227055450.23782.11593895316353443462.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupta has given a good description of the musicalized recitation of
the TS and the microtonal gaps between different notes.  There is no doubt
that the current recitation of the TS, especially in south India, is far
more musicalized, as compared to the recitation of the same Samhita in the
region of Maharashtra, where the musical distances between Udaatta,
Anudaatta, and Svarita are much smaller.  Historically, it seems to me
that a certain distinction must be made between the musicalized renderings
of the Vedic accents, and the Vedic accents as described by Panini and
Praatizaakhyas.  Particularly, in the case of Panini, his description of
accents is not limited to Vedic, but the same accent rules apply to all of
Sanskrit derived by his grammatical system, and even contemporary dialects
of spoken Sanskrit differed in regional accents (cf. P's rule: udak ca
vipaaza.h).  This being the case, it is more reasonable to assume that the
Accents of Sanskrit (including Vedic and Bhaazaa) were, by Panini's time,
not musicalized as yet, except of course in the case of the Saamaveda.
The high and low distinctions of accent/pitch are only relative highs and
lows, while the default middle range itself fluctuated from person to
person.  This is why Patanjali and the Praatizaakhyas describe high and
low accents not in any absolute terms, i.e. by their exact correlation to
any specific musical distances, but they say that these high and low
distinctions apply within a given register (samaanayame) of a given
person, and this register itself may differ from person to person.
        It is indeed the case that Saamavedic Zik.saas like that of
Naarada relate different accents to notes of a musical scale.  However,
this correlation occurred most likely in the Saaman traditions, and not in
other traditions.  Even the Naaradazik.saa (1.3) says that the Udaatta and
Anudaatta differ only by one note in the RV recitation, they differ by two
notes in the recitation of the (more musical?) Gaathaas, and they differ
by three notes in the Saaman recitation.  Thus, the RV (and possibly the
YV and AV accents as well) were originally not musicalized at all.
However, with the loss of accents in the classical language, the
musicalization of Vedic recitation steadily progressed over time.

                                Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Bharat Gupt wrote:

> > but rather "Today what
> > would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita school call the accent
> > marked by a vertical line above the syllable and chanted by him as a high
> > note, and what would he call the unmarked syllable chanted by him as a
> > midnote?"
> > In other words "Is the naming of the accents in the introduction of this
> > chanting book an error?"
> >
> > Many thanks in advance,
> >
> > Harry Spier
>
> >
> > [Krishna Kalale]  The letter with a vertical line on top - is known as
> > udAtta (high note)
> > The letter unmarked is svarita (middle note)  and the letter with a
> > horizontal line (like a minus sign) below it is known as anudAtta.
> >    (lower note)
> > Krishna Kalale
>
> Broadly speaking the Anudaatta, Udaatta and Svarita svaras of Rgveda paatha and the
> Saam, including the Taittiriiyapratitshaakhya, as heard today, can be equated with Ni,
> Sa, and Ri of the North Indian Kafi scale (Kharaharapriya of the Karnataka melas).  This
> means that Horizontal line in written text indicates the Anudaatta, unmarked is Udaatta
> and the vertical line marked is Svarita.  This is  contrary  to  what is found written
> in the book mentioned by Prof. Spier.
>
> All the modern scholars and recorders of Vedic chants from Fox- Strangways (1914) have
> noted that in musical pitch Svarita today is higher than Udatta. Not only the vertical
> line indicates it but in some recitation tradition the reciter raises his head up to
> indicate the rise of pitch of Svarita and brings it down to indicate Anudaataa.
>
> The saying "samaahaarah svaritah", has often led to the belief that Svarita lies in
> between the Udaatta and Anudaatta. Hence it has also been interpreted as the circumflex
> note, in which the pitch rises and then falls down even to Anudaatta. But that is only
> part of the general tradition of rendering in Indian singing, recitation or paatha,
> Vedic or Laukika.  The notes are always used not by jumping from one to another but with
>  a glide. These glides becomes gamaka and other alankaaras in secular music.
>
> The point of pitch to which the Svarita goes is the definitional location of the svara
> called svarita and this pitch is higher than that of Udaatta.
>
> The Paniniya "samaahaarah svaritah" is to be understood not in terms of the pitch of the
> note in comparison to the pitch of Udaatta, but in terms of the musical interval on the
> scale, that is to say, that while Udaatta is a four s'ruti(microtonal interval) note,
> Anudaata is a two s'ruti note, the Svarita is a three s'ruti note. The example as above,
> Sa, Ni and Ri respectively.
>
> It may also be noted that Abhinavagupta has elaborated on the samaahaar by explaining
> the s'ruti intervals.
>
> For a very detailed survey of nearly a hundred years of research and recording of chants
> , it may be useul to refer to THE SAMAN CHANTS BY GH TARLEKAR, 1985 Indian Musical
> Society, Baroda and a review of it by me in Journal of the Sangeet Natak Academy, March
> 1987. Number 83.
>
> Bharat Gupt
>




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Jan 22 19:22:37 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 11:22:37 -0800
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055455.23782.2192152090450534464.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt <abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN> wrote:

>Broadly speaking the Anudaatta, Udaatta and Svarita svaras of Rgveda paatha
>and the
>Saam, including the Taittiriiyapratitshaakhya, as heard today, can be
>equated with Ni,
>Sa, and Ri of the North Indian Kafi scale (Kharaharapriya of the Karnataka
>melas).

In contemporary south Indian (excluding Kerala Nambudiri tradition)
recitation of RV and TS, the notes correspond more closely to Ni, Sa and Ri
of the Cakravaka mela (north Indian Ahir Bhairav scale). Many music
enthusiasts associate the south Indian raga Revati (corresponding to Bairagi
Bhairav) with Vedic recitation.

>The Paniniya "samaahaarah svaritah" is to be understood not in terms of the
>pitch of the
>note in comparison to the pitch of Udaatta, but in terms of the musical
>interval on the
>scale, that is to say, that while Udaatta is a four s'ruti(microtonal
>interval) note,
>Anudaata is a two s'ruti note, the Svarita is a three s'ruti note. The
>example as above,
>Sa, Ni and Ri respectively.

This description is quite unclear to me. If the Sruti references are to
musical intervals, udaatta is four Srutis away from which note? And
anudaatta is two Srutis away from which note? It is quite standard to say
that Sa is four Srutis and Ni is two Srutis, but here the references are
automatically to the previous note in the octave. To elaborate, Sa is four
Srutis away from Ni, and Ni is two Srutis away from Dha. Even if the
recitation has increasingly become musicalized, is it valid to apply
concepts based on an entire octave to a recitation scheme that involves a
much more restricted range of pitches?

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From ThomasBurke at AOL.COM  Sat Jan 22 17:03:23 2000
From: ThomasBurke at AOL.COM (Thomas C, Burke)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 12:03:23 -0500
Subject: Recordings of Ramayana on music CD
Message-ID: <161227055454.23782.10922051793753677278.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Namaskar!

There is an old Folkways recording of several selections of  the Valmiki
Ramayana
(Folkways 09920, 1951), as recorded by S.R. Ranganathan, T.M.P. Mahadevan,
and Swami Nikhilananda.  If I recall correctly, these passages formed one
side of an LP record containing Sanskrit material.

This recording (I think on cassette) can now be ordered from Smithsonian
Folkways recordings:  http://www.si.edu/folkways/

Thomas Burke




From Palaniappa at AOL.COM  Sat Jan 22 22:30:32 2000
From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 17:30:32 -0500
Subject: Skt vocabulary for: Hail
Message-ID: <161227055457.23782.6697947999097352292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Tamil literature, acan2i (=Skt. azani) has been used in numerous
instances. kamparAmAyaNam alone has more than 50 instances. One can see that
the original meaning of thunderbolt and an extended meaning "missile/weapon"
can be seen from the usages. One can also see that in its original meaning,
it is distinct from hail. But, then arrows as well as hail can be seen as
missiles. Some examples are given below.

iTikkin2Ra acan2i en2n2a iraikkin2Ratu, irAman2 pOr vil;
veTikkin2Ratu aNTam en2n2a, paTuvatu tampi vil nAN;
aTikkin2Ratu en2n2ai vantu cevitoRum an2uman2 Arppu
piTikkin2Ratu ulakam egkum, pariticEy Arppin2 veRRi.   (kam.6.18.277)

Here we see acan2i is thunder.

pon2 neTug kun2Ram an2n2An2 pukar mukap pakazi en2n2um
man2 neTug kAla van2 kARRu aTittalum, iTittu vAn2il
kal neTu mAri peyyak kaTai ukattu ezunta mEkam,
min2 oTu um acan2i oTum vIzvatE pOla vIzntAL.           (kam.1.7.73)

In the above, one can see hail is distinguished from acan2i.

kun2Ru nin2Ratu pErttu eTuttu, irunilak kuTar kavarnten2ak koNTAn2,
cen2Ru viNNoTu poRiyoTum tIccela, cEvakan2 cen2i nErE,
'ven2Ru tIrka' en2a viTTan2an2; atu vantu paTTatu mEl en2n2a.
an2aiya kun2Ru en2um acan2iyai, yAvarkkum aRivu arum aran2mEn2i       (kam.
6.15.332)

Here a mountain which is uprooted and thrown by a person is called acan2i.

aiya! vem pAcam tan2n2Al ArppuNTAr; acan2i en2n2ap
peyyum vejncarattAl mEn2i piLappu uNTAr; "uNarvu pErntAr
uyyunar" en2Ru uraittatu uNmaiyO? ozikka on2RO?
ceyyum en2Ru eNNat teyvam ciRitu an2RO? teriyin2 ammA!
(kam.6.18.292)

Here the arrows are equated to acan2i.

toTagkiya Arppin2 Ocai cevi pulam toTartalOTum,
iTagkaLil vayap pOttu an2n2a eRuzvali arakkar yArum,
maTagkalin2 muzakkam kETTa vAn2kari ottAr; mAtar
aTagkalum acan2i kETTa aLai uRai aravam ottAr.
      (kam.6.18.284)

Here the common Tamil motif of the snake (aravam) getting scared of thunder
(acan2i) is referred to. I think nAgAnanda's usage of azani may also be a
suggestion of the motif of danger posed by thunder to snakes.


Regards
S. Palaniappan




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Sat Jan 22 20:08:34 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 20:08:34 +0000
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055448.23782.6484332816377083013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> but rather "Today what
> would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita school call the accent
> marked by a vertical line above the syllable and chanted by him as a high
> note, and what would he call the unmarked syllable chanted by him as a
> midnote?"
> In other words "Is the naming of the accents in the introduction of this
> chanting book an error?"
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Harry Spier

>
> [Krishna Kalale]  The letter with a vertical line on top - is known as
> udAtta (high note)
> The letter unmarked is svarita (middle note)  and the letter with a
> horizontal line (like a minus sign) below it is known as anudAtta.
>    (lower note)
> Krishna Kalale

Broadly speaking the Anudaatta, Udaatta and Svarita svaras of Rgveda paatha and the
Saam, including the Taittiriiyapratitshaakhya, as heard today, can be equated with Ni,
Sa, and Ri of the North Indian Kafi scale (Kharaharapriya of the Karnataka melas).  This
means that Horizontal line in written text indicates the Anudaatta, unmarked is Udaatta
and the vertical line marked is Svarita.  This is  contrary  to  what is found written
in the book mentioned by Prof. Spier.

All the modern scholars and recorders of Vedic chants from Fox- Strangways (1914) have
noted that in musical pitch Svarita today is higher than Udatta. Not only the vertical
line indicates it but in some recitation tradition the reciter raises his head up to
indicate the rise of pitch of Svarita and brings it down to indicate Anudaataa.

The saying "samaahaarah svaritah", has often led to the belief that Svarita lies in
between the Udaatta and Anudaatta. Hence it has also been interpreted as the circumflex
note, in which the pitch rises and then falls down even to Anudaatta. But that is only
part of the general tradition of rendering in Indian singing, recitation or paatha,
Vedic or Laukika.  The notes are always used not by jumping from one to another but with
 a glide. These glides becomes gamaka and other alankaaras in secular music.

The point of pitch to which the Svarita goes is the definitional location of the svara
called svarita and this pitch is higher than that of Udaatta.

The Paniniya "samaahaarah svaritah" is to be understood not in terms of the pitch of the
note in comparison to the pitch of Udaatta, but in terms of the musical interval on the
scale, that is to say, that while Udaatta is a four s'ruti(microtonal interval) note,
Anudaata is a two s'ruti note, the Svarita is a three s'ruti note. The example as above,
Sa, Ni and Ri respectively.

It may also be noted that Abhinavagupta has elaborated on the samaahaar by explaining
the s'ruti intervals.

For a very detailed survey of nearly a hundred years of research and recording of chants
, it may be useul to refer to THE SAMAN CHANTS BY GH TARLEKAR, 1985 Indian Musical
Society, Baroda and a review of it by me in Journal of the Sangeet Natak Academy, March
1987. Number 83.

Bharat Gupt




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 23 06:29:41 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 00 22:29:41 -0800
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055459.23782.18117595298895944737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I wrote earlier:

>If the Sruti references are to
>musical intervals, udaatta is four Srutis away from which note? And
>anudaatta is two Srutis away from which note? It is quite standard to say
>that Sa is four Srutis and Ni is two Srutis, but here the references are
>automatically to the previous note in the octave. To elaborate, Sa is four
>Srutis away from Ni, and Ni is two Srutis away from Dha. Even if the
>recitation has increasingly become musicalized, is it valid to apply
>concepts based on an entire octave to a recitation scheme that involves a
>much more restricted range of pitches?

To further clarify my query, given that pitch values are being associated
with the terms udaatta, anudaatta and svarita, there can be only two
intervals among three notes. The absolute pitch of one note has to be
arbitrary, and the other two can be defined relatively. That is why I am
puzzled how any sense can be made out of assigning 4, 2 and 3 Srutis to
udaatta, anudaatta and svarita.

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From rao.3 at OSU.EDU  Sun Jan 23 11:06:30 2000
From: rao.3 at OSU.EDU (Vidhyanath Rao)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 00 11:06:30 +0000
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055461.23782.7118945444982612209.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

How are the accents rendered in Maitrayani recitation (assuming that the
tradition is still alive, at least for those mantras used in grhya rites)?
In particular, does the notation used in MS reflect the actual practice?




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 24 02:10:18 2000
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 00 18:10:18 -0800
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055462.23782.5479036056685972030.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is there a living tradition of Taitiiriya Yajurveda in
Maharashtra ?. Also, isnt there a marked difference in
the recitation of the rk samhita  and taittiiriya
samhita in south india for the svarita. rgvedis always
recite the svarita (for a syllables with the deergha
matra ) in the same way as a yajurvedis recite the
deergha svarita, right ?.  Also the svarita for
letters with non-deergha matra is  emphasized more
than in yajurvedic tradition. The treatment of
anusvara is also
different.

Thanks,
Nikhil

--- Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> wrote:
> Bharat Gupta has given a good description of the
> musicalized recitation of
> the TS and the microtonal gaps between different
> notes.  There is no doubt
> that the current recitation of the TS, especially in
> south India, is far
> more musicalized, as compared to the recitation of
> the same Samhita in the
> region of Maharashtra, where the musical distances
> between Udaatta,
> Anudaatta, and Svarita are much smaller.
> Historically, it seems to me
> that a certain distinction must be made between the
> musicalized renderings
> of the Vedic accents, and the Vedic accents as
> described by Panini and
> Praatizaakhyas.  Particularly, in the case of
> Panini, his description of
> accents is not limited to Vedic, but the same accent
> rules apply to all of
> Sanskrit derived by his grammatical system, and even
> contemporary dialects
> of spoken Sanskrit differed in regional accents (cf.
> P's rule: udak ca
> vipaaza.h).  This being the case, it is more
> reasonable to assume that the
> Accents of Sanskrit (including Vedic and Bhaazaa)
> were, by Panini's time,
> not musicalized as yet, except of course in the case
> of the Saamaveda.
> The high and low distinctions of accent/pitch are
> only relative highs and
> lows, while the default middle range itself
> fluctuated from person to
> person.  This is why Patanjali and the
> Praatizaakhyas describe high and
> low accents not in any absolute terms, i.e. by their
> exact correlation to
> any specific musical distances, but they say that
> these high and low
> distinctions apply within a given register
> (samaanayame) of a given
> person, and this register itself may differ from
> person to person.
>         It is indeed the case that Saamavedic
> Zik.saas like that of
> Naarada relate different accents to notes of a
> musical scale.  However,
> this correlation occurred most likely in the Saaman
> traditions, and not in
> other traditions.  Even the Naaradazik.saa (1.3)
> says that the Udaatta and
> Anudaatta differ only by one note in the RV
> recitation, they differ by two
> notes in the recitation of the (more musical?)
> Gaathaas, and they differ
> by three notes in the Saaman recitation.  Thus, the
> RV (and possibly the
> YV and AV accents as well) were originally not
> musicalized at all.
> However, with the loss of accents in the classical
> language, the
> musicalization of Vedic recitation steadily
> progressed over time.
>
>                                 Madhav Deshpande
>
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Bharat Gupt wrote:
>
> > > but rather "Today what
> > > would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita
> school call the accent
> > > marked by a vertical line above the syllable and
> chanted by him as a high
> > > note, and what would he call the unmarked
> syllable chanted by him as a
> > > midnote?"
> > > In other words "Is the naming of the accents in
> the introduction of this
> > > chanting book an error?"
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance,
> > >
> > > Harry Spier
> >
> > >
> > > [Krishna Kalale]  The letter with a vertical
> line on top - is known as
> > > udAtta (high note)
> > > The letter unmarked is svarita (middle note)
> and the letter with a
> > > horizontal line (like a minus sign) below it is
> known as anudAtta.
> > >    (lower note)
> > > Krishna Kalale
> >
> > Broadly speaking the Anudaatta, Udaatta and
> Svarita svaras of Rgveda paatha and the
> > Saam, including the Taittiriiyapratitshaakhya, as
> heard today, can be equated with Ni,
> > Sa, and Ri of the North Indian Kafi scale
> (Kharaharapriya of the Karnataka melas).  This
> > means that Horizontal line in written text
> indicates the Anudaatta, unmarked is Udaatta
> > and the vertical line marked is Svarita.  This is
> contrary  to  what is found written
> > in the book mentioned by Prof. Spier.
> >
> > All the modern scholars and recorders of Vedic
> chants from Fox- Strangways (1914) have
> > noted that in musical pitch Svarita today is
> higher than Udatta. Not only the vertical
> > line indicates it but in some recitation tradition
> the reciter raises his head up to
> > indicate the rise of pitch of Svarita and brings
> it down to indicate Anudaataa.
> >
> > The saying "samaahaarah svaritah", has often led
> to the belief that Svarita lies in
> > between the Udaatta and Anudaatta. Hence it has
> also been interpreted as the circumflex
> > note, in which the pitch rises and then falls down
> even to Anudaatta. But that is only
> > part of the general tradition of rendering in
> Indian singing, recitation or paatha,
> > Vedic or Laukika.  The notes are always used not
> by jumping from one to another but with
> >  a glide. These glides becomes gamaka and other
> alankaaras in secular music.
> >
> > The point of pitch to which the Svarita goes is
> the definitional location of the svara
> > called svarita and this pitch is higher than that
> of Udaatta.
> >
> > The Paniniya "samaahaarah svaritah" is to be
> understood not in terms of the pitch of the
> > note in comparison to the pitch of Udaatta, but in
> terms of the musical interval on the
> > scale, that is to say, that while Udaatta is a
> four s'ruti(microtonal interval) note,
> > Anudaata is a two s'ruti note, the Svarita is a
> three s'ruti note. The example as above,
> > Sa, Ni and Ri respectively.
> >
> > It may also be noted that Abhinavagupta has
> elaborated on the samaahaar by explaining
> > the s'ruti intervals.
> >
> > For a very detailed survey of nearly a hundred
> years of research and recording of chants
> > , it may be useul to refer to THE SAMAN CHANTS BY
> GH TARLEKAR, 1985 Indian Musical
> > Society, Baroda and a review of it by me in
> Journal of the Sangeet Natak Academy, March
> > 1987. Number 83.
> >
> > Bharat Gupt
> >
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 24 03:12:19 2000
From: marpally_n_p at YAHOO.COM (Nikhil Rao)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 00 19:12:19 -0800
Subject: migration from Mah. to Thanjavur
Message-ID: <161227055467.23782.7026756697691380931.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings to all,

While I know of several mahrashtrian families hailing
from the Thanjavur/Kumbakonam areas who speak Marathi
at home, I have a friend who is a tamil speaking
vadama brahmin hailing from Thanjavur, according to
him his family and several other families belonging to
the maudgalya gotra were imported from Nasik in Mah.
to perform rituals for the maratha kings of Thanjavur.
like most other tamil brahmins he is a
"yajusshakhaadhyaayi". Does anybody have suggestions
for references!

Thanks,
Nikhil
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Jan 24 01:46:12 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 00 20:46:12 -0500
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
In-Reply-To: <20000124021018.26567.qmail@web1003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055464.23782.8405934221209624457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

There is certainly a living tradition of Taittiriya Yajurveda in
Maharashtra.  There are Taittiriyas among the Chitpavan Brahmins in
Maharashtra, and there are several continuing Pathashalas in Pune which
teach both the RV and the TS.  I have RV and TS recordings from Marathi
brahmins, and I will have to check for the details of Svarita.  The
treatment of Anusvaara is indeed different.
                                Madhav Deshpande

On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Nikhil Rao wrote:

> Is there a living tradition of Taitiiriya Yajurveda in
> Maharashtra ?. Also, isnt there a marked difference in
> the recitation of the rk samhita  and taittiiriya
> samhita in south india for the svarita. rgvedis always
> recite the svarita (for a syllables with the deergha
> matra ) in the same way as a yajurvedis recite the
> deergha svarita, right ?.  Also the svarita for
> letters with non-deergha matra is  emphasized more
> than in yajurvedic tradition. The treatment of
> anusvara is also
> different.
>
> Thanks,
> Nikhil
>
> --- Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU> wrote:
> > Bharat Gupta has given a good description of the
> > musicalized recitation of
> > the TS and the microtonal gaps between different
> > notes.  There is no doubt
> > that the current recitation of the TS, especially in
> > south India, is far
> > more musicalized, as compared to the recitation of
> > the same Samhita in the
> > region of Maharashtra, where the musical distances
> > between Udaatta,
> > Anudaatta, and Svarita are much smaller.
> > Historically, it seems to me
> > that a certain distinction must be made between the
> > musicalized renderings
> > of the Vedic accents, and the Vedic accents as
> > described by Panini and
> > Praatizaakhyas.  Particularly, in the case of
> > Panini, his description of
> > accents is not limited to Vedic, but the same accent
> > rules apply to all of
> > Sanskrit derived by his grammatical system, and even
> > contemporary dialects
> > of spoken Sanskrit differed in regional accents (cf.
> > P's rule: udak ca
> > vipaaza.h).  This being the case, it is more
> > reasonable to assume that the
> > Accents of Sanskrit (including Vedic and Bhaazaa)
> > were, by Panini's time,
> > not musicalized as yet, except of course in the case
> > of the Saamaveda.
> > The high and low distinctions of accent/pitch are
> > only relative highs and
> > lows, while the default middle range itself
> > fluctuated from person to
> > person.  This is why Patanjali and the
> > Praatizaakhyas describe high and
> > low accents not in any absolute terms, i.e. by their
> > exact correlation to
> > any specific musical distances, but they say that
> > these high and low
> > distinctions apply within a given register
> > (samaanayame) of a given
> > person, and this register itself may differ from
> > person to person.
> >         It is indeed the case that Saamavedic
> > Zik.saas like that of
> > Naarada relate different accents to notes of a
> > musical scale.  However,
> > this correlation occurred most likely in the Saaman
> > traditions, and not in
> > other traditions.  Even the Naaradazik.saa (1.3)
> > says that the Udaatta and
> > Anudaatta differ only by one note in the RV
> > recitation, they differ by two
> > notes in the recitation of the (more musical?)
> > Gaathaas, and they differ
> > by three notes in the Saaman recitation.  Thus, the
> > RV (and possibly the
> > YV and AV accents as well) were originally not
> > musicalized at all.
> > However, with the loss of accents in the classical
> > language, the
> > musicalization of Vedic recitation steadily
> > progressed over time.
> >
> >                                 Madhav Deshpande
> >
> > On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Bharat Gupt wrote:
> >
> > > > but rather "Today what
> > > > would a Brahmin priest of the taittiriya samhita
> > school call the accent
> > > > marked by a vertical line above the syllable and
> > chanted by him as a high
> > > > note, and what would he call the unmarked
> > syllable chanted by him as a
> > > > midnote?"
> > > > In other words "Is the naming of the accents in
> > the introduction of this
> > > > chanting book an error?"
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks in advance,
> > > >
> > > > Harry Spier
> > >
> > > >
> > > > [Krishna Kalale]  The letter with a vertical
> > line on top - is known as
> > > > udAtta (high note)
> > > > The letter unmarked is svarita (middle note)
> > and the letter with a
> > > > horizontal line (like a minus sign) below it is
> > known as anudAtta.
> > > >    (lower note)
> > > > Krishna Kalale
> > >
> > > Broadly speaking the Anudaatta, Udaatta and
> > Svarita svaras of Rgveda paatha and the
> > > Saam, including the Taittiriiyapratitshaakhya, as
> > heard today, can be equated with Ni,
> > > Sa, and Ri of the North Indian Kafi scale
> > (Kharaharapriya of the Karnataka melas).  This
> > > means that Horizontal line in written text
> > indicates the Anudaatta, unmarked is Udaatta
> > > and the vertical line marked is Svarita.  This is
> > contrary  to  what is found written
> > > in the book mentioned by Prof. Spier.
> > >
> > > All the modern scholars and recorders of Vedic
> > chants from Fox- Strangways (1914) have
> > > noted that in musical pitch Svarita today is
> > higher than Udatta. Not only the vertical
> > > line indicates it but in some recitation tradition
> > the reciter raises his head up to
> > > indicate the rise of pitch of Svarita and brings
> > it down to indicate Anudaataa.
> > >
> > > The saying "samaahaarah svaritah", has often led
> > to the belief that Svarita lies in
> > > between the Udaatta and Anudaatta. Hence it has
> > also been interpreted as the circumflex
> > > note, in which the pitch rises and then falls down
> > even to Anudaatta. But that is only
> > > part of the general tradition of rendering in
> > Indian singing, recitation or paatha,
> > > Vedic or Laukika.  The notes are always used not
> > by jumping from one to another but with
> > >  a glide. These glides becomes gamaka and other
> > alankaaras in secular music.
> > >
> > > The point of pitch to which the Svarita goes is
> > the definitional location of the svara
> > > called svarita and this pitch is higher than that
> > of Udaatta.
> > >
> > > The Paniniya "samaahaarah svaritah" is to be
> > understood not in terms of the pitch of the
> > > note in comparison to the pitch of Udaatta, but in
> > terms of the musical interval on the
> > > scale, that is to say, that while Udaatta is a
> > four s'ruti(microtonal interval) note,
> > > Anudaata is a two s'ruti note, the Svarita is a
> > three s'ruti note. The example as above,
> > > Sa, Ni and Ri respectively.
> > >
> > > It may also be noted that Abhinavagupta has
> > elaborated on the samaahaar by explaining
> > > the s'ruti intervals.
> > >
> > > For a very detailed survey of nearly a hundred
> > years of research and recording of chants
> > > , it may be useul to refer to THE SAMAN CHANTS BY
> > GH TARLEKAR, 1985 Indian Musical
> > > Society, Baroda and a review of it by me in
> > Journal of the Sangeet Natak Academy, March
> > > 1987. Number 83.
> > >
> > > Bharat Gupt
> > >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>




From asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA  Mon Jan 24 14:22:52 2000
From: asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA (Adela or Alain Sandness Leblanc)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 00 09:22:52 -0500
Subject: IE linguistic gender and the number 0
Message-ID: <161227055469.23782.14588990870888687172.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

Could someone please recommend to me sources which would detail current
understandings regarding the following:

1.    What is the process by which, and the context within which, the
indo-european linguistic genders "animate" and "inanimate" evolved to become
the three linguistic genders we have in Vedic?  I am particularly interested
in the movement from "inanimate" to "neuter".

2.    What is the historical context within which Indian philosophers first
developed the concept of the number zero?

I thank you in advance for your assistance.

Adela Sandness

Associate Researcher
Faculty of Religious Studies
McGill University




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Mon Jan 24 15:44:52 2000
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 00 15:44:52 +0000
Subject: CARB fonts released
Message-ID: <161227055471.23782.14979977151739247964.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Some weeks ago I undertook to build and release fonts containing a large
set of supplementary characters -- characters often needed by people
working in and around Indian Studies, but not available in the standard
CSX+ (and Norman) fonts. The encoding followed by these fonts was to be
called CARB, standing for "Character/Accent RagBag"; the point was to
emphasise the supplemetary nature of the fonts. Mostly one would work in,
say, Times CSX+; occasionally one would switch into Times CARB to use this
or that special character. (CARB does, however, contain all the standard
ASCII characters.)

PC versions of the fonts are now available from my website (URL given
below): follow the "fonts" link and then choose "carb". The README file
gives all relevant information. I hope to create and release Macintosh
versions of the Times fonts in the near future.

John Smith

--
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From athr at LOC.GOV  Mon Jan 24 21:38:20 2000
From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 00 16:38:20 -0500
Subject: roommate for AOS?
Message-ID: <161227055472.23782.6916566809336076352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Is anyone looking for a roommate for the American Oriental Society
convention, probably from Sat. February 11 through Tues. 14.?

Allen Thrasher



Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian       101 Indendence Ave., SE
Southern Asia Section               LJ-150
Asian Division                            Washington, DC 20540-4810
Library of Congress                     U.S.A.
tel. 202-707-3732                       fax 202-707-1724
Email: athr at loc.gov

The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the
Library of Congress.




From Jan.Dvorak at FF.CUNI.CZ  Mon Jan 24 22:07:30 2000
From: Jan.Dvorak at FF.CUNI.CZ (Jan Dvorak)
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 00 23:07:30 +0100
Subject: Pandanus '98: publication announcement
Message-ID: <161227055474.23782.3589142786842473981.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

PUBLICATION ANNOUNCEMENT

Vacek, Jaroslav and Knotkova-Capkova, Blanka (eds):
Pandanus '98. Flowers, Nature, Semiotics ? Kavya and Sangam.
Signeta, Prague (Czech Republic), 1999.
135 x 190 mm, 180 pp., paperback.
ISBN 80-902608-1-0

The first PANDANUS workshop on flower and natural symbolism in the classical
Indian literatures took place in May 1998 in Prague. All the presented
papers now appear in a volume entlitled PANDANUS '98. Flowers, Nature,
Semiotics ? Kavya and Sangam. For more information about the PANDANUS
project, visit http://www.cuni.cz/ffiu/pandanus.

CONTENTS:

Preface
G. Boccali: Rain Poems and the Genesis of Kavya
J. Dvorak: Neem and Campaka in Classical Indian Literatures
B. Knotkova-Capkova: Some Remarks on Literary Analysis of the Symbolical
Patterns in Ancient Tamil Poetry
B. Kolver: Ambiguities, Polysemy, and Identifications
G. Pellegrini: Sattasai and palai poems of Ainkurunuru
J. Vacek: A Neytal Feature to Be Found in the Meghaduta?
J. Cejka: Plants in Kavya Poetry: Problems with Plant-Names

To get the book, you can (a) visit http://www.volny.cz/signeta and submit an
on-line order; (b) contact your bookseller. The price is EUR 12.00 (USD
12.00) incl. VAT (EUR 11.43 neto).


Jan Dvorak




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan 25 03:27:14 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 03:27:14 +0000
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055476.23782.8525851213530729897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Madhav Deshpande wrote:
>
> Bharat Gupta has given a good description of the musicalized recitation of
> the TS and the microtonal gaps between different notes.  There is no doubt
> that the current recitation of the TS, especially in south India, is far
> more musicalized, as compared to the recitation of the same Samhita in the
> region of Maharashtra, where the musical distances between Udaatta,
> Anudaatta, and Svarita are much smaller.  Historically, it seems to me
> that a certain distinction must be made between the musicalized renderings
> of the Vedic accents, and the Vedic accents as described by Panini and
> Praatizaakhyas.

There can be no disagreement on this. I am glad this issue has been raised.
First, there have always been variations in rendering, hence so many Shaakhas.
Secondly, Vedic chants, not even the Saman, were supposed to be brought close to secular
music and hence musicalised. There has  been a well-preserved distinction between Vedic
and Laukika Gaana. There is always an absence of the exactitude and embellishments in
the notes used for Vedic Paa.tha or Gaana and a deliberate avoidance of sweetness or
rakti. It was not only the closeness or distance (less or more musical) from the well
defined musical scales (Graama,Muurcchanaas and Jatis in ancient period and now Thaa.ts
and Melas and Raagas) that mattered, but that the rendering was styled to sound separate
from Laukika music or Gaandharva/Sangiita.

It is only in the last twenty years, as product of a new cultural confusion, that the
mantras are being sung in Raagas.

Why were the parallels drawn between Vedic renderings and the scales of Gaandharva ?
They were more for the purpose of descriptive study and not for standardising or
improving Vedic Gaana. A systematic theory of scales was offered only by the science of
Gaandharva and hence the description of Vedic notes was possible only by comparison as
there was no separate categorisation of Vedic scales. Saama-Gaan was not supposed to
improve from the knowledge of musical notes. As a matter of fact, the custom ensured
that the  musicians and Veda-pathiis never heard each other. As late as Manu, the
student of the Veda was forbidden to hear music and see plays (kaamajo das'ako gan.aah).

I may also venture to add that when it is said that Indian music developed from Vedic
chanting (that Gaandharva grew out of Sama-Gaana), it is more to accord veneration to
Vedas.  Vedic chants were for Yajna and Gaandharva for secular pleasure. But the first
had to be defined in terms of the second.  This was the case when the thread began,
defining Udaatta etc., and that can be done only in terms of a musical scale of today.

And this also applies to accent and tone (Svara, pracaya,etc.,) in spoken language.
In speech the accents are not at musical distances as has been pointed out.

However, there is one fundamental unity in the speech, recitation (Vedic or not) and
song, that the rise and fall of voice (tone/pitch/svara) is governed by emotion and
intent. Hence Udaata, Anudaatta and Svarita get amplified into Saptakas and Sthaanas.
When distances between tones are rough, it is speech but when they are exact it is
music, and when in between, it is recitation, less or more musical. This unity has been
reflected in Veda, music, grammar and dramatic performances by the art of Svara.

Bharat Gupt




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 25 15:35:51 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 07:35:51 -0800
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055480.23782.12138321892011849451.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>On Konrad's post about the rising sea levels, I am slowly working on a
>book project entitled "The Churning of the Milky Ocean."
>The book is meant for general audiences and deals, among other things,
>with various origin traditions linked with the Milky Ocean, which by all
>accounts I'm aware of is located to the east.

Isn't the Angkor Wat depiction of the myth a result
of the Indianization originating from the West of Khmer empire?
Or, Did the churning of the ocean myth reach India from the East?



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Tue Jan 25 14:46:20 2000
From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 09:46:20 -0500
Subject: Vedic accent...
In-Reply-To: <388D1812.4F23@del3.vsnl.net.in>
Message-ID: <161227055483.23782.4517639228957362013.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The preceding discussion on recitation certainly is very interesting.
Finally, some information is coming in on this very much neglected topic...
In spite of books such as Staal's Namburiri recitation and the various ones
by Howard... We should finally make a detailed survey of recitation (and
the zaakhaas, gotras etc. of the Vaidika Brahmins) of all parts of the
subcontinent (I have collected recitation on tapes from Kashhmir to Madras
and from Saurastrra to Orissa).

NB: Answreing a previous question: I forget about Maitrayaniya pitch, but
they definitely follow their older style, not the printed editions of von
Schroeder and Satvalekar: they keep, for example, s- s-, and do not
substitute Visarga + s. Will check the tapes in my office & answer.


>Madhav Deshpande wrote:

>> Bharat Gupta.....  There is no doubt
>> that the current recitation of the TS, especially in south India, is far
>> more musicalized, as compared to the recitation of the same Samhita in the
>> region of Maharashtra, where the musical distances between Udaatta,
>> Anudaatta, and Svarita are much smaller.

May I draw attention to the 'tonal curves' published by E. Gray in BSOAS in
the late sixties?

They show that, even with the medieval and modern way of recitation, e.g.,
an udaata (middle level, rising) is frequently not  recited that way  but
undergoes all sorts of modifications.
In part 'tonal sandhi', as expected in tone languages when two extreme
tones get together (cf. various realizations of the Chinese 3rd tone...).

But there are other, not yet explained forces at work here. We need more
recordings and (computer) analysis. Our ears are not always good enough,
especially those of people whose language does not contain tones (exc. for
the rising one in questions).


Another point I have been wondering about for long.

Panini's udaatta seems to be reflected in Staals' recording of Kerala
(Nambudiri) Rgveda ---but only in the PadapaaTha (see his book Namb. Veda
Rec., 1961): it is recited as highest tone.

I have noticed a similar case during my long stay in Nepal in the Seventies
(unpublished), in the
recitation of the local Raajopadhyaaya Brahmins. This group of Nepalese
Brahmins speaks Newari and has been there sinceat least  c. 500 CE
(inscriptions); they do not intermarry with other Maadhy.Vaajasaneyins who
have arrived in the Kathmandu Valley much later.

In their recitation udaata also is the highest tone. This preserves, at
both ends of the subcontinent something old...

The problem is the following. Like in other Indian languages (North AND
South), long vowels (especially long a) seem to be pronounced with a
certain higher pitch, a definite raise in tone.
This, of course, interfers with recitation, making any unaccented
(non-udaatta) long syllable liable for higher pitch/rising tone. And that's
why I have not yet published about Nep. recitation: it needs a lot of
detailed study.

Any ideas about this higher tone of aa (etc.) ? I have only once seen it
mentioned in some more or less recent (last 20 years) book on a modern NIA
language but forget where.
Discussion welcomed!


>>  Historically, it seems to me
>> that a certain distinction must be made between the musicalized renderings
>> of the Vedic accents, and the Vedic accents as described by Panini and
>> Praatizaakhyas.




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 25 18:04:38 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 10:04:38 -0800
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055489.23782.17585243922691309705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Bharat Gupt <abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN> wrote:

>Let me put it this way: If the Vedic svaras or tones are to be called or
>defined as
>svaras, then they cannot  be defined as a units of three  (as in Rk
>paath.a) or four but
>only as a saptak (in western terms the octave where the tonic is counted
>twice). There

Perhaps, but this is not theoretically impossible.

>can be no Shadja unless there are six other notes or no Madhyama if there
>are no three
>notes on its either side.  Similarly, the three tones called Udaatta etc.,
>were located
>on to the Gandharva scales (muurcchanaas) to give their descriptive nature.
>This was
>never an exact description as the pitch of Udaatta etc., varied from
>Shaakaa to Shaakaa
>( as you yourself pointed out).

And that is precisely why a musical interpretation of the Paninian
"samaahaaras svarita.h" sounds very problematic to me. The idea that the
samaahaara refers to svarita being a three Sruti note can apply only to some
of the recitation traditions around. In south Indian tradition, where the
notes correspond to ni, sa and ri of Ahir Bhairav rather than Kafi, the
svarita becomes a 2 Sruti note. And there are recitation schools where no
musical pitches can be properly assigned to the actual sounds. The
interpretation of samaahaara according to musical intervals then becomes
quite unsatisfactory, does it not?

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jan 25 18:12:38 2000
From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 10:12:38 -0800
Subject: IE linguistic gender and the number 0
Message-ID: <161227055491.23782.6632172032839155584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Adela or Alain Sandness Leblanc <asandn at PO-BOX.MCGILL.CA> wrote:

>2.    What is the historical context within which Indian philosophers first
>developed the concept of the number zero?
>

A good recent book on zero is "The Nothing that Is" by Robert Kaplan.
Disappointing perhaps, for Indo-centric views of the origin of zero, but it
makes delightful reading. And he does give credit where credit is due.

Vidyasankar
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 25 18:23:33 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 10:23:33 -0800
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055495.23782.5580612892643465304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think the Milky ocean has more to do with Vishnu(MaayOn)/Krishna being
the Lord of the Mullai landscape. Vishnu who is dark in colour
(Kalidasa, inscriptions, literature, ...) is said to sleep on the
white-colored ocean; perhaps to add contrast.

Interested in the sources about volcanic activity
in the churning of the ocean legends, SM


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Tue Jan 25 18:34:07 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 11:34:07 -0700
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
In-Reply-To: <388F2430.ED6D875B@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055496.23782.3169921306458280777.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
>Many times it is also placed in the east by implication. For example,
>the Mahabharata, Puranas and many other works locate Sakadwipa in the
>east, and the milky ocean is said to surround this island.

I have assumed that Sakadwipa is the land beyond Hindukush
from where the Maga came from, and the descendants of some
of them are know as the Sakadvipis in Bihar.

What specific clues Mahabharata and Puranas have regarding its
location?

Yashwant




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 25 19:52:23 2000
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 11:52:23 -0800
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055502.23782.287804639679485291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear List,

Generally and traditionally speaking, as teachers of
Sanskrit, especially those in India, what
material/non-material gift would be most welcomed by
you from the western student?

Thanks in advance
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jan 25 20:12:16 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 12:12:16 -0800
Subject: [q] Dairy culture
Message-ID: <161227055503.23782.5380858846791138720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

China (and Vietnam) did not develop any dairy culture; Is it the same
with Southeast Asia also?

Generally pig-and-rice culture is Southeast Asia; Indonesia
like other SE Asia has hoary traditions of water buffalos.
But what about milk, butter, curds, cheese?, - do they have any long
history in SE Asia? Thanks for the info.

Still what is not clear is the fact that the Milky ocean churning myth
travels from West to East when the Indianization spreads.
And, no hint that Indians borrowed it from places like Hawaii.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK  Tue Jan 25 15:46:40 2000
From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 15:46:40 +0000
Subject: Devanagari for TeX v2.0
Message-ID: <161227055482.23782.17478268398936666084.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

A major upgrade of the devnag package is now available from

  http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/language/devanagari/distrib/

This version is numbered 2.0, and is the successor to v1.6 (there are no
versions 1.7, 1.8 or 1.9). It contains contributions from myself, Anshuman
Pandey, Dominik Wujastyk, Francois Patte, Marc Csernel and (I think)
Charles Wikner. Here is Anshuman's README file:

 ========================================================================
Devanagari for TeX                                          Release Notes
version 2.0                                               23 January 2000
 ========================================================================

Preprocessor: devnag.c has been updated and greatly enhanced. If you have
a previously installed version of devnag, you must recompile the source.
A 32-bit DOS/Win95 executable (devnag.exe) has been provided.

Package: dev.sty has been revised to fix certain catcode problems. Several
new features have been implemented in the package. Refer to the manual
for descriptions.

Font: The fonts have been revised. Certain characters have been modified.
The font metrics have not been changed.

Please refer to the manual for further information.

 ========================================================================

John Smith

 --
Dr J. D. Smith                *  jds10 at cam.ac.uk
Faculty of Oriental Studies   *  Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106)
Sidgwick Avenue               *  Fax  01223 335110
Cambridge CB3 9DA             *  http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html




From Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU  Tue Jan 25 07:22:23 2000
From: Royce.Wiles at ANU.EDU.AU (Royce Wiles)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 18:22:23 +1100
Subject: Death of Prof. J. W. de Jong (1921-2000)
Message-ID: <161227055478.23782.2870275082939670014.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I have been asked to make an announcement of the recent death of Prof. J.
W. de Jong on 22 January 2000 last.

He died here in Canberra after a brief illness.

Full obituaries and appreciations of his contributions to the scholarship
in Buddhist studies, Indology, Chinese studies etc. will appear in due
course in appropriate journals, including the Indo-Iranian journal (IIJ)
which he helped found in 1955.



Royce Wiles




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Tue Jan 25 18:07:27 2000
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 19:07:27 +0100
Subject: Fw:      Re: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055493.23782.6091247260841704888.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:

> >I am slowly working on a
> >book project entitled "The Churning of the Milky Ocean."
> >The book is meant for general audiences and deals, among other things,
> >with various origin traditions linked with the Milky Ocean, which by all
> >accounts I'm aware of is located to the east.
>
> Isn't the Angkor Wat depiction of the myth a result
> of the Indianization originating from the West of Khmer empire?
> Or, Did the churning of the ocean myth reach India from the East?
>


Bernard Sergent does claim that the churning of the ocean myth (and many
other myths besides, e.g. the birth of the human race from a pumpkin,
preserved in the patriarch's name Ikshvaku/pumpkin) comes from SE Asia.
Elsewhere in the same book, Gen?se de l'Inde, he also says that it has a
common origin with the Germanic myth of Aegir churning the ocean to produce
beer.  This seems to imply that the myth travelled all the way from the SE
to the NW of the Eurasian continent.  Maybe we should keep the unmentionable
invasion, but have it come from the SE rather than from the NW.

Kind regards,

Dr. K. Elst




From ramakris at EROLS.COM  Wed Jan 26 00:47:18 2000
From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 19:47:18 -0500
Subject: on zankara's date - 2
Message-ID: <161227055507.23782.1891806281859207333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I thank Dr Palaniappan for the 2 mails in reply to me. The one about
shivasoman was extremely informative. Yes, the appellation bhagavat
for the teacher of Sivasoman is a strong (certain?) indication that it
was sha.nkara, the author of the sUtrabhAshhya. Hacker has an article
on the use of bhagavat in the colophons, which I had already mentioned
in one of my mails. Nagaswamy tried to refute this inscription because
it did not gel with the accounts of organizations he was affiliated
with. We can safely ignore that.

Regarding my use of the word "non-orthodox" school to refer to
Manikkavacagar (M) , I may be mistaken. It was my understanding that
M's philosophy is Agama based and not veda based. Is that incorrect?
Some shaivas, for e.g., the pAshupata-s use logic to infer pashupati
(shiva) unlike vedAntic schools, but accept the veda-s as
authoritatative. Their praxis also seems veda based (see Oberhammers
article in "Mantra", ed Harvey Alper). So they would be included in
the orthodox schools. The Kashmir Saiva's would not be considered
orthodox because of their reliance, for the most part, on Agama-s.
What is M's view on the veda and it's use? Perhaps, M belonged to the
trend which tried to reconcile the Agama-s and veda-s, like
thirumUlar?

There is no reason why M should not have met, for example Suresvara.
His importance is not realized at all by many modern scholars.
Suresvara was extremely influential on later advaitic schools
regarding the locus of avidyA and so on, topics which sha.nkara
refuses to discuss. Or it could be padmapAda, another extremely
influential writer. In fact we could say, that padmapAda decisively
set the trend for later advaitins. Traditionally also he is held to
have hailed from choza desha, for whatever that's worth.

Another point in favor of padmapAda. Take the use of the word
mAyAvAda: HAcker has also shown that this word does not fit
sha.nkara's philosophy at all. Such a word, could however be used to
describe padmapAdas interpretation of sha.nkara. That padmapAda's work
reinterprets sha.nkara has been proved conclusively by
Satchidanandendra Saraswati Swami of Holenarsipur (See for eg vedAnta
prakriyA pratyabiGYA). The objection that there is no inscription
about sureshvara or padmapAda in TN is of no consequence. There is
none on sha.nkara either! There's only one in Cambodia. And Sureshvara
was a disciple of sha.nkara and PadmapAda (if not a disciple) must
have lived not much later, for he is quoted by vAchaspati mishra.

As to Vachaspati Mishras date, I am afraid there is nothing so certain
about this, contrary to what some gentleman has tried to make it out.
I'll try to send a separate mail on this within the next few days.

Rama




From abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN  Tue Jan 25 21:54:41 2000
From: abhinav at DEL3.VSNL.NET.IN (Bharat Gupt)
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 21:54:41 +0000
Subject: Vedic accent in taittiriya samhita
Message-ID: <161227055488.23782.4161421689951714969.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
>
> I wrote earlier:
>
> >If the Sruti references are to
> >musical intervals, udaatta is four Srutis away from which note? And
> >anudaatta is two Srutis away from which note? It is quite standard to say
> >that Sa is four Srutis and Ni is two Srutis, but here the references are
> >automatically to the previous note in the octave. To elaborate, Sa is four
> >Srutis away from Ni, and Ni is two Srutis away from Dha. Even if the
> >recitation has increasingly become musicalized, is it valid to apply
> >concepts based on an entire octave to a recitation scheme that involves a
> >much more restricted range of pitches?
>
> To further clarify my query, given that pitch values are being associated
> with the terms udaatta, anudaatta and svarita, there can be only two
> intervals among three notes. The absolute pitch of one note has to be
> arbitrary, and the other two can be defined relatively. That is why I am
> puzzled how any sense can be made out of assigning 4, 2 and 3 Srutis to
> udaatta, anudaatta and svarita.


Let me put it this way: If the Vedic svaras or tones are to be called or defined as
svaras, then they cannot  be defined as a units of three  (as in Rk paath.a) or four but
only as a saptak (in western terms the octave where the tonic is counted twice). There
can be no Shadja unless there are six other notes or no Madhyama if there are no three
notes on its either side.  Similarly, the three tones called Udaatta etc., were located
on to the Gandharva scales (muurcchanaas) to give their descriptive nature. This was
never an exact description as the pitch of Udaatta etc., varied from Shaakaa to Shaakaa
( as you yourself pointed out).


As the Vedic tones (as I tried to indicate in another post also, the one to Prof
Deshpande) are given Gaandharva names only for comparison, hence the s'ruti comparisons
follow. The tris'rutic rshabha or dhaivata (the svarita) was equated with the
charactersitic of vacillation or kampan. Perhaps a pratice more ponounced in the times
of Abhinvagupta who mentions it.
It seems that the Vedic scales were quite distinct in origin and practice (and were also
deliberately kept so to keep them away from Laukika music) but they had to be compared
for some reasons. My surmise is that the vina (harps in that age) players who
accompanied Vedic chants needed to know the Gaandharva notes. There msut have ohter
reasons too, the research in still very scanty.

Regards,
Bharat Gupt




From gregjay at POI.NET  Wed Jan 26 16:41:05 2000
From: gregjay at POI.NET (Greg Jay)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 06:41:05 -1000
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <20000125195223.16407.qmail@web3104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055520.23782.16384485534653460937.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Generally and traditionally speaking, as teachers of
>Sanskrit, especially those in India, what
>material/non-material gift would be most welcomed by
>you from the western student?

This would depend upon how orthodox the Teacher is. A very traditional
Teacher could be offered gifts like dhoti & anga vastram, or if in a cold
area also a chaddar. Usually students also give fruit to their teachers.
However if your teacher is really orthodox he may accept the fruit but may
not actually consume it. There are of course many restrictions against
accepting eatables from non-brahmins. So in any case only unbroken fruits
should be offered. Pure Ghee is another good gift. Of course daksina in the
form of cash may be acceptable to your teacher, but some teachers are
offended by cash. Other items which your teacher requests may be given. I
had a teacher who requested a tape recorder, with which he wanted to record
spiritual discourses to send to NRIs.

Greg Jay




From cssetzer at MUM.EDU  Wed Jan 26 13:48:34 2000
From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 07:48:34 -0600
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055514.23782.13654844814212943242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

From: Edwin Bryant <ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>

> settled on a wool chAdar. This is a fairly standard gift.  But it was of
> the best quality available. People who wear such things, such as
> traditional Sanskrit teachers, are well aware of the differences in
> quality between chAdars ( or different types of dhotis, etc).  He seemed
> well satisfied.  Edwin Bryant

Dhoti, shawl, chAdar are the "standard" or even "obligatory" type of ritual
gift for many types of "Vedic" and ritual situations. It also seems that a
more"personal" gift suited to the specific situation might be very much
appreciated in addition to the "expected" type of formal gift. I once
brought an exquisite and very expensive shawl on behalf of someone else and
a luscious Mango on behalf of myself. The teacher was away from India and
had not had a good mango for along time. It happened that he was extremely
excited about the mango and pretty indifferent about the shawl.


Claude Setzer
>




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jan 26 16:14:03 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 08:14:03 -0800
Subject: [q] Dairy culture
Message-ID: <161227055518.23782.10853847604947397426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> > China (and Vietnam) did not develop any dairy culture; Is it the same
> > with Southeast Asia also?
> >
>

  >Also, yogurt, milk and cheese was the primary food of
  >many peoples in Mongolia, the Uyghur areas and Manchuria.

  Was the cow-milk products popular in China (not Mongolia)?
  Was the cows & milk culture popular in Southeast Asia when
  compared with the Vedic or Sangam Tamil lore?

  Regards,
  SM




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Jan 26 08:43:18 2000
From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 08:43:18 +0000
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055509.23782.17463522047607632940.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Koenraad Elst <koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE> wrote:<Maybe we should keep the
unmentionable> invasion, but have it come from the SE rather than from the
NW.

I invite indology members to join a new webcommunity:
http://communities.msn.com/sarasvati This website enables members to post
images (maps, pictures etc.)which will, hopefully, add colour to the lively
indological churning of thoughts. Regards, Kalyanaraman PS: It
will be nice to get a picture of the Angkorvat churning...K.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan 26 16:43:29 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 08:43:29 -0800
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055485.23782.16976570094700358220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
>
> >On Konrad's post about the rising sea levels, I am slowly working on a
> >book project entitled "The Churning of the Milky Ocean."
> >The book is meant for general audiences and deals, among other things,
> >with various origin traditions linked with the Milky Ocean, which by all
> >accounts I'm aware of is located to the east.
>
> Isn't the Angkor Wat depiction of the myth a result
> of the Indianization originating from the West of Khmer empire?
> Or, Did the churning of the ocean myth reach India from the East?
>

Yes, the Angkor Wat relief is of Indian origin.

However, the churning myth deals with a period of the distant past
and the event is located in the Milky Ocean, which was placed
specifically in the Ramayana, Brihat Samhita and Parasara Horasastra in
the eastern regions.

Many times it is also placed in the east by implication. For example,
the Mahabharata, Puranas and many other works locate Sakadwipa in the
east, and the milky ocean is said to surround this island.

The myth itself of the fiery mountain with a molten stream of burnt
vegetation flowing off the mountainsides into the ocean, and turning it
into a milky color seems to describe volcanic activity. The heat of the
mountain is said to have caused catastrophic loss of sea life, and if we
are to relate this to natural phenomenon, volcano eruption is the
natural choice.

Migration myths would likely be better kept by those who migrated,
although flood and volcanic myths about in the Rim of Fire and
specifically in Austronesia and Sundaland.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Jan 26 14:54:26 2000
From: ebryant at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Edwin Bryant)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 09:54:26 -0500
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0001261432360.6876-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227055512.23782.11380789354723560191.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I once gave a gift to a Sanskrit teacher in India.  After asking around in
the appropriate circles at some length as to what would be appropriate, I
settled on a wool chAdar. This is a fairly standard gift.  But it was of
the best quality available. People who wear such things, such as
traditional Sanskrit teachers, are well aware of the differences in
quality between chAdars ( or different types of dhotis, etc).  He seemed
well satisfied.  Edwin Bryant




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan 26 19:27:05 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 11:27:05 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
Message-ID: <161227055498.23782.3811181535896225195.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>

> I have assumed that Sakadwipa is the land beyond Hindukush
> from where the Maga came from, and the descendants of some
> of them are know as the Sakadvipis in Bihar.
>
> What specific clues Mahabharata and Puranas have regarding its
> location?
>

The Mahabharata states that Sakadwipa is east of Meru (in the
description of the dvipas).

A number of Puranas place Udayagiri, which is traditionally located in
the East (Ramayana, etc.) on Sakadwipa. Matsya, at least, also locate
the home of Garuda on Sakadwipa, and Garuda home is also associated with
the eastern regions in the Ramayana and other works.

Sakadwipa is described in Puranas and other works as lush in Salmali
(silk-cotton), Parijata (coral tree) and sandalwood trees, all tropical
varieties of the Indies.  Another such tree, of course, is the namesake
Saka, or teak, tree.

I have discussed this subject with a few Sakadwipi brahmins from
Deoghar, Noida and Patna and they agreed that their origin was from the
far east.

Whether this was connected in any way at all with Epic and Puranic
tradition, they did not say.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From kekai at JPS.NET  Wed Jan 26 19:44:12 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 11:44:12 -0800
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055500.23782.4988609254926466705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
>
> I think the Milky ocean has more to do with Vishnu(MaayOn)/Krishna being
> the Lord of the Mullai landscape. Vishnu who is dark in colour
> (Kalidasa, inscriptions, literature, ...) is said to sleep on the
> white-colored ocean; perhaps to add contrast.
>

Yes, there are many ways to intepret the Milky Ocean to include the
starry skies and even the physical universe. Yet there is also a
Milky Ocean with geographic definition. I believe that the Milky
Ocean in the churning refers, at least partly, to this defintion.

> Interested in the sources about volcanic activity
> in the churning of the ocean legends, SM
>

In story-telling and myth-making, it is common to devise ways of
describing things that are not known to the listener/reader. Also,
localization is a common phenomenon.

Even between Greece and Rome, which are geographically very close and
which experienced a direct and continous transmission of myth, a great
deal of localization of myth occured. Greek myths were transferred but
often Latinized both in name and geography.

Regarding the evidence of volcanic activity, here are a few verses from
Van Buitenen's translation:

"...as Vasuki was forcefully pulled up and down by the Gods, puffs of
fire and smoke belched forth from his mouth. The clouds of smoke became
massive clouds with lightning flashes and rained down on the troops of
Gods, who were weakening with the heat and fatigue...All kinds of
creatures that inhabit the deep were crushed asunder by the big mountain
...and the mountain drove sea animals of all sorts, such as dwell in the
submarine abysses, to their destruction...The friction of the trees
started fire after fire, covering the mountain with flames like a black
monsoon cloud with lightening streaks...many juices of herbs and
manifold resins of the trees flowed into the water of the ocean. And
with the milk of these juices that had the power of the Elixir, and with
the exudation of the molten gold <from the mountain>, the God attained
immortality. The water of the ocean now turned into milk, and from this
milk butter floated up, mingled with the finest of essences."

vol. I, pp. 73-74

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Wed Jan 26 17:08:18 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 12:08:18 -0500
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <l03110700b4b38ce862e2@[209.213.40.148]>
Message-ID: <161227055522.23782.16956396419172028470.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I must confess I am beginning to feel jealous of all those gift-receiving
Sanskrit teachers.  Does living in the west prevent a Sanskrit teacher
from being eligible to receive such wonderful gifts?
                                Madhav Deshdpande




From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU  Wed Jan 26 17:10:26 2000
From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 12:10:26 -0500
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10001261205210.29949-100000@qix.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055524.23782.17381958950430636369.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I must confess I am beginning to feel jealous of all those gift-receiving
>Sanskrit teachers.  Does living in the west prevent a Sanskrit teacher
>from being eligible to receive such wonderful gifts?
>                                 Madhav Deshdpande

NOW I understand! I'm deeply sorry, Madhav -- I don't every recall
bringing you a mango, much less an expensive shawl! (Does this mean I
should send you one of those "fruit of the month" club things?!)



Jonathan Silk

jonathan.silk at yale.edu

Dept. of Religious Studies
Yale University
320 Temple St.
New Haven CT 06520-8287
USA

tel. 203-432-0828
fax. 203-432-7844




From grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Jan 26 17:20:33 2000
From: grimesj at PILOT.MSU.EDU (john grimes)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 12:20:33 -0500
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.10.10001261205210.29949-100000@qix.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055528.23782.11911091451754796059.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

According to the Manu Smrti, a bhrtaka adhyapaka/upadhyaya works for wages
- an acarya receives daksina. Maybe (!) if one were to give up one's
salary, the gifts would start rolling in (!)  Of course, it goes without
saying, that one must also truly be an acarya. Ah, the good old days - no
one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . .
John Grimes

>I must confess I am beginning to feel jealous of all those gift-receiving
>Sanskrit teachers.  Does living in the west prevent a Sanskrit teacher
>from being eligible to receive such wonderful gifts?
>                                Madhav Deshdpande




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Wed Jan 26 18:26:20 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 13:26:20 -0500
Subject: armageddon myth
Message-ID: <161227055530.23782.5782480490762620996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The storey of christs resurrection, riding a white horse etc is much more
popular in christianity than in India and at a first guess the kalki avatAr
storey would seem to be a borrowing from christian mythology and would hint
at an early knowledge of christian texts in India.

Are there any opinions about this. Is it possible that christianity picked
up and elaborated on an oriental myth.

regards

R Banerjee




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Wed Jan 26 14:35:27 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 14:35:27 +0000
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <20000125195223.16407.qmail@web3104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055510.23782.15970796835471170547.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

That's a difficult question, since there are issues of both tradition and
of personal taste involved.  For what it's worth, I once gave my teacher,
V. B. Bhagavat, a basket of mangoes.  He seemed pleased, but it was hard
to tell exactly how he felt, since he is a perfect gentleman.  At other
times I gave him books which I thought he would find interesting (Lyons on
theoretical linguistics, etc.).  Later I was able to fulfill a request by
him for microfilmed MSS at the India Office, and I think that was of more
real use to him.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Wed Jan 26 22:02:44 2000
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 16:02:44 -0600
Subject: expiation for eating beef
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000126222713.007b7ac0@pop.lu.se>
Message-ID: <161227055541.23782.1493959149894490397.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indologists!

   I've been asked if there is any way that a Hindu can 'make up' for
having accidently eaten beef. I checked Indology's archive and went
through many messages under the heading *beef eating in the Veda* which
deal with many aspects of the topic. I also searched under 'expiation' and
read a brief exchange on the Gosava ritual. But I'm wondering if there was
any ritual or procedure (or if one has been developed in modern times)
which is intended to remove the stain of eating beef. I remember the
'panca-gavyam' for returning from abroad, but I've never heard about
anything which would apply specificly to this. Washing in the Ganga is all
I could come up with! I seem to remember an apology that a ritualist gives
to his sacrificial victim --the specific reference to this would be
appreciated.

best,
Tim Cahill




From kekai at JPS.NET  Thu Jan 27 00:21:18 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 16:21:18 -0800
Subject: [q] Dairy culture
Message-ID: <161227055505.23782.8459161380969443865.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
>
> China (and Vietnam) did not develop any dairy culture; Is it the same
> with Southeast Asia also?
>

You seem to be getting off track here. Where did you read that China and
Vietnam did not develop "dairy" culture. Cheese is mentioned in ancient
Chinese texts. Also, yogurt, milk and cheese was the primary food of
many peoples in Mongolia, the Uyghur areas and Manchuria.

Are you relating dairy culture with the Milky Ocean? Besides, milk also
comes from water buffalos (as does ghee).

In terms of the zebu of India, Bos Indicus is a tropical breed
indigenous to India, Africa and Southeast Asia, and is distinct from
West Asian and European taurine breeds. The zebu may have originated
in South Asia as that is where the greatest genetic diversity arises.

There is an apparent link between the domestication of Bos indicus and
B. Bubalis (water buffalo) as they are found over much of the same
tropical and semi-tropical range in domestic form.

But again the churning part of the myth may simply be a devise to
explain an unfamilar phenomenon.  If you've ever seen clips of a
pyroclastic volcanic eruption, you will note how the description I
posted, minus the supernatural stuff, matches with startling detail such
an event.

Also, I do not claim that the specific myth originated in the East, but
that the myth describes events and migrations from the eastern region.
The two are not the same.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From Eric.Robert at UM.BE  Wed Jan 26 15:45:43 2000
From: Eric.Robert at UM.BE (Robert, Eric)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 16:45:43 +0100
Subject: varNa question
Message-ID: <161227055516.23782.13680411702177436618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

I've got to make a small work about the system of varNa in India. While
trying to collect some data, I found 2 sources with 2 very different
statements.
One says that, for a given crime, a shudra was punished more heavily than a
vaishhya, himself more than a kshhatrya (with a reference to Manu smRti).
The second source says the opposite, that the punishment was in relation
with the responsability, i.e., a vaishhya would receive a punishment twice
as heavy as a shudra, and a kshhatrya twice as heavy as a vaishhya.

Now, in Mahabharata,the eldest brother among pandavas, Yudhistir was asked
to do a justice for a crime which involved four people from four different
varNa. He gave the severest punishment possible to the one who was from
BhramaN varNa since he was the most knowledgeble among the four to know what
is right and wrong. Whereas he gave the least punishment to the person from
shudra varNa because he was uneducated and was least likely to plan for that
crime.

I would like to know which source is right (maybe both?) and possibly get
more textual references.
In advance thank you.

Dr. Eric Robert




From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Wed Jan 26 22:03:56 2000
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 17:03:56 -0500
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055539.23782.3876210512344758379.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/26/00 12:15:39 PM, jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU writes:

>>I must confess I am beginning to feel jealous of all those gift-receiving
>>Sanskrit teachers.  Does living in the west prevent a Sanskrit teacher
>>from being eligible to receive such wonderful gifts?
>>                                 Madhav Deshdpande
>
>NOW I understand! I'm deeply sorry, Madhav -- I don't every recall
>bringing you a mango, much less an expensive shawl! (Does this mean I
>should send you one of those "fruit of the month" club things?!)


Perhaps Madhav should start a site called www.pandit.com. (I believe the URL
is available.) Then gurus around the world can post their wish lists, a la
Amazon and other e-commerce sites. For example:

"Mangoes always accepted; other fruits only in season."

"Pens! Pens! Pens! Always pens! I have enough pens. (However, refills gladly
accepted.)"

"Remember, a rupee isn't what it used to be. Paise will result in a terrible
curse."

"No pre-addressed havaii patras. (However, please write regularly to me.)"

Such straight talk would certainly save their students much angst and soul
searching, and save the gurus trips to the shop to exchange unwanted gifts.

Brian




From Sfauthor at AOL.COM  Wed Jan 26 22:12:00 2000
From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 17:12:00 -0500
Subject: SV: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055543.23782.9700355227542316304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/26/00 4:40:44 PM, lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes:

>> >Ah, the good old days - no
>> >one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . .
>>
>> Or kanyaa-daana!  :-)
>
>Are you suggesting somebody should send a maiden to Madhav?


Actually, I believe a fresh strii-gana shows up every September like
clockwork.




From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE  Wed Jan 26 17:00:54 2000
From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 18:00:54 +0100
Subject: [q] Dairy culture
Message-ID: <161227055526.23782.14761179547727610488.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dairy products are rather foreign to China, being associated with the
northwestern barbarians.  I don't know if it has changed lately, but ten
years ago only a handful of shops in the Shanghai metropolis sold milk.
Most Chinese words pertaining to cattle domestication and other forms of
animal exploitation are of IE (Tocharian) origin: words for dog, honey, cow,
horse (ma < *mra, cfr. Eng. mare), milk.  There is a theory that the Yellow
Emperor, legendary founder of Chinese civilization, was of western origin,
"yellow" or fair-haired like the presumably Tocharian mummies found in
Xinjiang.  At any rate, fundamental culture items were imported from
Mesopotamia or Harappa, including the lunar mansion system, dragon and
tortoise motifs, the basic outline of the script (Portuguese scholar Jos?
Calazans claims to have evidence of a Harappan connection for the Chinese
script), the "cire perdue" technique.

Transmission from Harappa or Mesopotamia to the Yellow River basin is but an
instance of a general pattern of transmission from hosp?table climates
advanced in agriculture and technology to more northern areas.  It must be
distinguished from an eventual transmission of rice cultivation and of
certain myths from SE Asia to India, which seems to be pre-Harappan.  Mythic
or other references to the Flood are at any rate a few thousands years older
in origin.

Kind regards,

Koenraad Elst

http://members.xoom.com/KoenraadElst/




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Jan 27 02:06:21 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 18:06:21 -0800
Subject: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths
Message-ID: <161227055549.23782.4341535780998961040.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>PS: It will be nice to get a picture of the Angkorvat churning...K.

Dear Dr. Kalyanaraman,

You can scan a nice picture of the Indian myth of
the Milky sea churning in Kampuchea from the May 1982
issue of National Geographic. The relief is 160 feet long!
(The temples of Angkor, Will they survive?)

Yours sincerely,
V. Iyer


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU  Thu Jan 27 03:22:24 2000
From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 19:22:24 -0800
Subject: Armageddon Myth
In-Reply-To: <200001270030.SAA25942@mail3.doit.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055547.23782.2967765386990792518.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

If I'm not mistaken, it has been postulated that the eschatological roots
of almost all of the world traditions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam,
Hinduism (Kalki), Buddhism (Maitreya), etc.) are rooted in Persian
Zorastrianism.  Perhaps others could comment on this at more length.

-Stuart




From axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE  Wed Jan 26 18:36:22 2000
From: axel.michaels at URZ.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE (Axel Michaels)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 19:36:22 +0100
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055532.23782.3287935171514919554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In Nepal, brahmin priests, pandits and acharyas have a great collection of
umbrellas. More suitable presents you find in any daana-portion of
Dharmashastra-texts. My pandit in Benares always wanted to know how meat
tastes and asked me - jokingly - to bring vegetarian "meat" as gurudakshina.

Axel Michaels

_____________________________________________________________

Prof. Dr. Axel Michaels             e-mail:
axel.michaels at urz.uni-heidelberg.de
Dept. of Classical Indology        phone:  ++49-6221-548817
South Asia Institute                    fax:       ++49-6221-546338
University of Heidelberg
Im Neuenheimer Feld 330
69120 Heidelberg
Germany
______________________________________________________________




From OLES56 at AOL.COM  Thu Jan 27 02:24:25 2000
From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 21:24:25 -0500
Subject: SV: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055550.23782.8357914514378519506.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In a message dated 1/26/00 4:40:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lmfosse at ONLINE.NO writes:

<< Are you suggesting somebody should send a maiden to Madhav? >>
Ok gentlemen we have digressed enough , thank you.
Helen O . Giunta




From Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE  Wed Jan 26 21:27:13 2000
From: Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE (Martin Gansten)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 22:27:13 +0100
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <v03007808b4b49520f596@[35.8.151.130]>
Message-ID: <161227055534.23782.3074137350862160889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Ah, the good old days - no
>one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . .

Or kanyaa-daana!  :-)

Martin Gansten




From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO  Wed Jan 26 21:35:50 2000
From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 22:35:50 +0100
Subject: SV: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055536.23782.7993362835187574026.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten [SMTP:Martin.Gansten at TEOL.LU.SE] skrev 26. januar 2000 22:27:
> >Ah, the good old days - no
> >one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . .
>
> Or kanyaa-daana!  :-)

Are you suggesting somebody should send a maiden to Madhav?

Lars Martin

Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse
Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114,
0674 Oslo
Norway
Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19
Email: lmfosse at online.no




From birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT  Wed Jan 26 21:54:57 2000
From: birgit.kellner at UNIVIE.AC.AT (birgit kellner)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 22:54:57 +0100
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055538.23782.15659741528979343991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Martin Gansten wrote:

> >Ah, the good old days - no
> >one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . .
>
> Or kanyaa-daana!  :-)
>
> Martin Gansten

Oh yes, the good old days - if only *I* was living in such times, then I
wouldn't have to bother my nice little head with the intricacies of
Indic philosophy to make a living ... sigh ... :-)

<jocular reply in reaction to jocular reply; no further *public*
messages on this issue>

Regards,

--
Birgit Kellner
Institut f. Tibetologie und Buddhismuskunde / Institute for Tibetan and
Buddhist Studies
Universitaet Wien / Vienna University




From rchawla at DELLNET.COM  Thu Jan 27 07:36:15 2000
From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 00 23:36:15 -0800
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055552.23782.1811723562566765258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

My opinion is that teachers of Sanskrit in India are as human as all of us.
They are no different than any of us.

 For a non-material gift, they will feel good to hear from anyone as to how
much they (students) appreciate their knowledge, and the love they
(teachers) have shown to their students, and other words of appreciation in
writing.  But the words have to be sincere and from the heart.

As for material gifts, in this modern times, any gift that adds to their
comforts - an air-conditioner, a refrigerator, a cell phone, a  regular or a
video camera, a television set, a note-book computer, an internet connection
to keep in touch with Indology network, a paid trip to the country of  the
studnent, and such other items will be welcome by any teacher.

Better still, ask the teacher as to what he/she will prefer as a gift. Or,
give the teacher what you feel a teacher can use, depending as to how much
you want to spend.

Regards,

R.Chawla

----- Original Message -----
From: Haridas C <haridasc at YAHOO.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 11:52 AM
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers


> Dear List,
>
> Generally and traditionally speaking, as teachers of
> Sanskrit, especially those in India, what
> material/non-material gift would be most welcomed by
> you from the western student?
>
> Thanks in advance
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jan 27 15:15:40 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 07:15:40 -0800
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055569.23782.3334345207102795368.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>I must confess I am beginning to feel jealous of all those gift-receiving
>Sanskrit teachers.  Does living in the west prevent a Sanskrit teacher
>from being eligible to receive such wonderful gifts? Madhav Deshdpande

 The sin of crossing the black sea? Kind regards.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR  Thu Jan 27 08:33:09 2000
From: jean.fezas at WANADOO.FR (Jean Fezas)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 09:33:09 +0100
Subject: varNa question
In-Reply-To: <390AC379FFD2D21193130008C70D353876B85A@irene.um.be>
Message-ID: <161227055554.23782.9450159454802154455.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

At 16:45 26/01/00 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear list members,
>
>I've got to make a small work about the system of varNa in India. While
>trying to collect some data, I found 2 sources with 2 very different
>statements.
>One says that, for a given crime, a shudra was punished more heavily than a
>vaishhya, himself more than a kshhatrya (with a reference to Manu smRti).
>The second source says the opposite, that the punishment was in relation
>with the responsability, i.e., a vaishhya would receive a punishment twice
>as heavy as a shudra, and a kshhatrya twice as heavy as a vaishhya.
>
>Now, in Mahabharata,the eldest brother among pandavas, Yudhistir was asked
>to do a justice for a crime which involved four people from four different
>varNa. He gave the severest punishment possible to the one who was from
>BhramaN varNa since he was the most knowledgeble among the four to know what
>is right and wrong. Whereas he gave the least punishment to the person from
>shudra varNa because he was uneducated and was least likely to plan for that
>crime.
>
>I would like to know which source is right (maybe both?) and possibly get
>more textual references.
>In advance thank you.
>
>Dr. Eric Robert


Dear Eric,

To solve the problem, we have to forget some "prejug?s" (exemplified for 
instance by Louis Dumont reproducing Bougl?'s mistake on the subject) : it 
is not true that the punishment of the Brahmin is ALWAYS lighter than the 
punishment of the zUdra). We must analyze the kind of offence involved :


The relevant smRti text is Gautama dharma-sUtra chapter 12  :

12.1.   A zUdra who intentionally reviles twice-born men by criminal abuse, 
or criminally assaults them with blows, shall be deprived of the limb with 
which he offends.
12.2.   If he has criminal intercourse with an Aryan woman, his organ shall 
be cut off, and all his property be confiscated.
12.3.   If (the woman had) a protector, he shall be executed after (having 
undergone the punishments prescribed above).
12.4.   Now if he listens intentionally to (a recitation of) the Veda, his 
ears shall be filled with (molten) tin or lac.
12.5.   If he recites (Vedic texts), his tongue shall be cut out.
12.6.   If he remembers them, his body shall be split in twain.
12.7.   If he assumes a position equal (to that of twice-born men) in 
sitting, in lying down, in conversation or on the road, he shall undergo 
(corporal) punishment.
12.8.   A kSatriya (shall be fined) one hundred (kArSapaNas) if he abuses a 
BrAhmaNa,
12.9.   In case of an assault, twice as much.
12.10.  A vaizya (who abuses a BrAhmaNa shall pay) one and a half (times as 
much as a KSatriya).
12.11.  But a brAhmaNa (who abuses) a kSatriya (shall pay) fifty (kArSApaNas),
12.12.  One half of that (amount if he abuses) a Vaizya,
12.13.  (And if he abuses) a zUdra, nothing.
12.14.  A kSatriya and a vaizya (who abuse one another shall pay the same 
fines) as a brAhmaNa and a kSatriya.
12.15.  (The value of) property which a zUdra unrighteously acquires by 
theft, must be repaid eight- fold.
12.16.  For each of the other castes (the fines must be) doubled.
12.17.  If a learned man offends, the punishment shall be very much increased.
12.18.  If fruits, green corn, and vegetables are appropriated in small 
amounts, (the fine is) five kRSNalas (of copper).
12.19.  If damage is done by cattle, the responsibility falls on the owner.
12.20.  But if (the cattle) were attended by a herdsman, (it falls) on the 
latter.
12.21.  (If the damage was done) in an unenclosed field near the road, (the 
responsibility falls) on the herdsman and on the owner of the field.
12.22.  Five mASas (are the fine to be paid) for (damage done by) a cow,
12.23.  Six for a camel or a donkey,
12.24.  Ten for a horse or a buffalo,
12.25.  Two for each goat or sheep.
12.26.  If all is destroyed, (the value of) the whole crop (must be paid 
and a fine in addition).

(Standard translation : G. B?hler, Sacred Books of the East)

This text shows that :
a) [sUtra 1-13] Some offences are punished according to the varNa because 
they are connected with the respective status of the offender and the 
offended*. Punishment is proportional to the hierarchical distance between 
the persons involved. Such a system exists in every hierarchical social 
group : a soldier who abuses an officer is heavily punished, not the 
reverse (you can substitute teacher / husband / father to officer and 
student / wife / children, to soldier, etc., etc.). Such punishments are 
the substantiation of hierarchy and, as such, must be proportional to the 
distance between the protagonists.
*Except sU 4-6, which are connected with the transgression of a taboo (the 
access to the Veda) by a zUdra.

b) [15-17] Some offences are punished according to the varNa of the 
offender, without taking into account the varNa of the offended, such is 
the case of sU. 15-17: the higher the status of the offender, the heaviest 
the punishment. These offences are heavily punished, because they show that 
the offender is unworthy of belonging to the upper strata of society, and 
because they put the blame on the whole group to which he belongs. (In 
fact, this system is the same as the one applied to "religious" 
transgressions : it is a general rule that eating forbidden food or 
drinking forbidden drinks results in much heavier sanctions for a Brahmin 
than for a zUdra...)

c) The other offences [18 sqq] are punished without taking into account the 
status of the culprit, because they do not involve problems of hierarchy. 
If an animal is causing some damage, the sanction is the same, whatever the 
status of the person responsible.


Many parallel passages are found in the smRti literature for the (a) 
category [see the synopsis of parallel passages of B?hler's edition of Manu 
sub Mn. 8.267-284]; it is the same for (c).

(b) category  --- to my knowledge --- appears only in Gaut and Mn. 8.337-338.

Gaut.
12.15.  aSTApAdyaM steya-kilbiSaM zUdrasya.
12.16.  dviguNottarANItareSAM prativarNam.
12.17.  viduSo 'tikrame daNDa-bhuyastvam.

Mn.
8.337           aSTApAdyaM tu zUdrasya steye bhavati kilbiSam/
                 SoDazaiva tu vaizyasya dvAtriMzat kSatriyasya ca//
8.338           brAhmaNasya catuH-SaSTiH pUrNaM vApi zataM bhavet/
                 dvi-guNA vA catuH-SaSTis tad-doSa-guNa-vid dhi san//

This shows, incidentally, how much the 8th book of Manu relies on Gautama's 
text*. The absence of a rule prescribing a heavier punishment for the 
higher varNas in case of theft in later smRtis seems to imply that this 
rule was only theoretic (or "moral", i.e. a theft committed by a Brahmin 
had heavier "unseen" consequences than a theft committed by a zUdra). Hence 
the decision of Yudhisthira, whom we know as an impersonalization of dharma.

*Manu also adds empty rhetorics to Gautama, see 8.336 "Where another common 
man would be fined one kArSapaNa, the king shall be fined one thousand; 
that is the settled rule"

J.F.




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Thu Jan 27 14:50:40 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 09:50:40 -0500
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
In-Reply-To: <61.120faae.25c0c94c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <161227055567.23782.2345853468013995583.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thanks for all sorts of gifts coming my way.  When I was a student in
Pune, we had a convenient interpretation of a verse of the Bhagavad-gita:

abhyaase 'py asamartho 'si, mat-karma-paramo bhava /
mad-artham api karmaa.ni kurvan siddhim avaapsyasi //

In modern Marathi, the word abhyaasa refers to study.  Hence the verse was
interpreted as a teacher saying to a student:

"Even if you are incapable of study, be dedicated to carrying out some
work for me (such as taking the cows to graze? or washing my laundry?).
Doing even such tasks for me, you will succeed (= I will give you a
passing grade in this class?)."

                                        Madhav Deshpande




From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE  Thu Jan 27 09:59:44 2000
From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 10:59:44 +0100
Subject: sAtvata-tantram
Message-ID: <161227055556.23782.11846459886753386904.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear INDOLOGY members,
please accept my warm greetings.

Could someone provide me any information or hints
about the primary/secondary sources of sAtvata-tantram
(a kRSNaite work; not to be mistaken with sAtvata-saMhitA,
a pAJcarAtrika text). Also, information about its Sanskrit
commentary sAtvata-tantra-bhASya is sought.

Many thanks in advance.

With best regards,
Sergei Schmalz.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Thu Jan 27 12:16:29 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 12:16:29 +0000
Subject: Descriptive Cataloging of Ancient, Medieval, Renaissance,              and Early-Modern Manuscripts (fwd)
Message-ID: <161227055558.23782.2353118193506253644.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,

In the professional library world there is a "bible" for cataloguers
called AACR2 ("Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules, 2 edition").  This
document is the basis of cataloguing practice in many tens of thousands of
libraries worldwide, and it is extremely influential.

AACR2 contains a lot of general orientation, and promotes a certain view
of cataloguing.  However, it is centrally concerned with the description
of printed books, and it does not deal adequately with the cataloguing of
manuscripts, or even with early printed books (incunabula etc.).  This has
been recognized for years, and some supplementary documents have been
circulated in the librarian community which help with these different
kinds of materials.

At long last, a formal document written at the same level as the AACR2
manual is nearing completion.  Greg Pass has written a formal set of
cataloguing rules for manuscript materials.  The draft is available
online, and I would encourage anybody interested in manuscripts to have a
look at it.  The document is aimed at professional librarians,
medievalists, etc. etc. and is bound to have a big influence on the future
of manuscript catalogues and cataloguing.

I have already been in touch with Greg Pass to note that his guidelines
lack any reference to non-European manuscripts, especially Asian
manuscripts.  He readily agreed, and asked for input on this topic.

I have been intending to provide a commentary on his guidelines, but I am
so short of time that this is difficult.

I would encourage anybody on this list to spread the word about these new
cataloguing rules.  Especially, please inform any staff you know who have
responsibility for Indian (or Oriental) manuscript collections.

We have a small window of opportunity here to get some material about
Asian manuscript issues into these guidelines, which are inevitably going
to define the field of manuscript cataloguing for decades to come.

Another idea would be simply to ask Greg Pass to rename the guidelines
DESCRIPTIVE CATALOGING OF ANCIENT, MEDIEVAL, RENAISSANCE, AND EARLY-MODERN
WESTERN MANUSCRIPTS (i.e., adding "Western").  But this would be a great
pity, I believe.

Best,
Dominik


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:01:37 -0600
From: Gregory A. Pass <passga at SLU.EDU>
Reply-To: Electronic Access to Medieval ManuscriptS <EAMMS at LS.CSBSJU.EDU>
To: EAMMS at LS.CSBSJU.EDU
Subject: Descriptive Cataloging of Ancient, Medieval, Renaissance,
                    and Early-Modern Manuscripts

As a reminder, I would like to reiterate an announcement made earlier
concerning a public hearing to be held at the upcoming Midwinter Conference
of the American Library Association in San Antonio, TX, for comment and
discussion on the draft document of Descriptive Cataloging of Ancient,
Medieval, Renaissance, and Early-Modern Manuscripts.  This session is
sponsored by the Bibliographic Standards Committee of RBMS/ACRL and will be
held on Friday, January 14, 8-10pm at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention
Center, rm. 208.  All are welcome to attend.

==========================

I would like to announce the availability of the draft text for a new set of
manuscript cataloging standards entitled DESCRIPTIVE CATALOGING OF ANCIENT,
MEDIEVAL, RENAISSANCE, AND EARLY-MODERN MANUSCRIPTS (also known more
economically as AMREMM).  These rules are intended as a supplement to
AACR2 -- similar in scope to Descriptive Cataloging of Rare Books (DCRB) and
Archives, Personal Papers, and Manuscripts (APPM) -- to allow creation of
item-level MARC catalog records for pre-modern manuscript materials in
library on-line public access catalogs as well as in the national
bibliographic utilities OCLC or RLIN.  The document is available in a
variety of file formats at URL: <ftp://165.134.156.3/vatican>.  A public
hearing will be held to invite comment and discussion on these proposed
cataloging rules at the Midwinter meeting of the American Library
Association in San Antonio, TX, on Friday, January 14, 2000, from 8:00 pm to
10:00 pm.  Scheduling and other information can also be found in the RBMS
Newsletter, pp. 2-3.  All are welcome to attend.

These cataloging rules have been developed under the auspices of Electronic
Access to Medieval Manuscripts (URL: <http://www.csbsju.edu/hmml/eamms>), a
project funded by the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, in cooperation with the
Bibliographic Standards Committee of the Rare Books and Manuscripts Section
of the Association of College and Research Libraries, a division of the
American Library Association, and tested at the Vatican Film Library at
Saint Louis University.  The Electronic Access project was instituted in
1996 with the aim of increasing the ability of researchers "to access
medieval manuscript catalog records, research information, images, text and
tools" in a more efficient manner through electronic means.  This project
brought together an international group of manuscript specialists comprising
catalogers, historians, art historians, and curators from the library and
academic communities to advise on the formulation of these rules.  These
rules represent a broad consensus in defining the categories of information
that an on-line manuscript description should contain and how these records
should be implemented according to AACR2 in a MARC environment.  It is hoped
that the combination of record structure and content information that is
offered will be flexible enough to accommodate a range of scholarly
manuscript descriptions.

Comments or questions are invited and may be directed to me at the address
given below.

Thank you.


Gregory Pass

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gregory Allan Pass
Assistant Librarian, Vatican Film Library
Pius XII Memorial Library
Saint Louis University
3650 Lindell Boulevard
St. Louis, Missouri  63108
Tel. (314) 977-3096 / Fax (314) 977-3108
http://www.slu.edu/libraries/vfl
passga at slu.edu




From tccahill at LOYNO.EDU  Thu Jan 27 18:19:30 2000
From: tccahill at LOYNO.EDU (Timothy C. Cahill)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 12:19:30 -0600
Subject: Armageddon Myth
In-Reply-To: <v04011703b4b568c476e8@[147.126.8.172]>
Message-ID: <161227055573.23782.4168321930988229731.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Indologists,

   I've forwarded a quote from Mary Boyce which states the case for the
view Stuart Ray Sarbacker has mentioned. For list members I'd like to
recommend the site of Joseph Peterson:

http.//www.avesta.org/avesta.html

I don't believe this site is listed on Dominik's Indology web site --but I
might have missed it.

best,
Tim Cahill

On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Stuart Ray Sarbacker wrote:
> If I'm not mistaken, it has been postulated that the eschatological roots
> of almost all of the world traditions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam,
> Hinduism (Kalki), Buddhism (Maitreya), etc.) are rooted in Persian
> Zorastrianism.  Perhaps others could comment on this at more length.




From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Thu Jan 27 19:49:48 2000
From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 12:49:48 -0700
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
In-Reply-To: <3891D50E.422EA33E@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055577.23782.14989807456296381754.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>Though the MahAbhArata really places the ZAkadvIpa continent to the
>east of Meru (XII.14.23),

My guess is that mount Meru corresponds to the region where
the Hindukush and Himalaya ranges merge. I have wondered if
Tirich Mir, the sacred mountain of the Kafirs (who are now
virtually extinct) has some connection with Meru.

> several generations of scholars has revealed the gradual spread of the
> ZAkadvIpa Brahmans over the Indian subcontinent and eventually their
> penetration even into Eastern India. The well-known Indian ethnologist
> P.L.Vidyarthi in his brilliant monograph on the city of GayA in Bihar
> expressed his opinion of Iranian (Magian) origin of the local ZAkadvIpi
> Brahmans.

The Bhojakas of Western India are also descendants of the
Maga. In all the Sun temples of India, only Magas had the
right to be priest. Bhojakas today are often employed
as priests in Jain temples of Rajasthan and Gujarat. It
is quite likely that many of the Indian astronomers (like
Varaha-mihir) were of Maga descent.

Bhojakas were also associated with Jain temples in
Karnataka as they are mentioned in some Kadamba copper-
plates of 5-6th cent.

Bhavishya Purana describes their settling on the
coast of Chandrabhaga (Chinab, Punjab), when they had
just arrived.

I have wondered about the "Mandaga" who came with the
Maga, but were given Shudra status. What happened to
them? Also I have wondered about the origin of the
term Bhojaka (explanation is that the Maga married
daughters of the Bhoj clan of the Yadavas).

>There is a person on Usenet who goes by the name of Gandasa who has
>claimed that there was a place called Sakasthan. Is that really the
>case?  Where is this SakasthAna mentioned?

Gandasa's (Gurupdesh S. Pandher) "Sakasthan" is where the
Jats live today (NW part of the Indian subcontinet). Its a new
political movement with apparently only one supporter so far.

Yashwant




From hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA  Thu Jan 27 18:27:56 2000
From: hdehejia at CCS.CARLETON.CA (Harsha V. Dehejia)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 13:27:56 -0500
Subject: Saundarya
Message-ID: <161227055575.23782.2380182992173462121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

                        SAUNDARYA: Concepts, Expressions and Ethos

New Delhi, November 24, 25, and 26, 2000



A three day workshop on this subject will be jointly organised in New Delhi by the Indian International Centre,The Indian Council for Cultural Relations and Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada under the academic direction of Dr. Kapila Vatsyayan. Starting with foundational concepts that define beauty in the Indian tradition and moving on to its many creative expressions and the ethos in which it is developed, the workshop will endeavor to understand that state of beauty which is beyond concepts and transcends constructs.


The workshop will open on Friday November 24 with an inaugural event. The first session on November 25 will explore various concepts which are integral to the understanding and creation of saundarya. These will include, among others, rasa and rupa, rang and rachana, dhvani and aucitya, nada and tala, purnatva and vishranti.


The second session on November 25 will examine the many manifestations of saundarya in our artistic traditions, oral and visual, occurrent and preserved, classical and folk, ancient and modern.


The third session on November 26 will consider the ethos in which saundarya is understood, created and celebrated in the Indian tradition. This will include an examination of factors such as sociology, history, patronage and psychology of the arts.


The workshop is limited to 15 participants. Travel assistance and hospitality will be provided. The papers, to be edited by Dr. Geeti Sen, will be published in the March issue of the India International Centre Quarterly.


You are invited to submit a 100 word abstract of your paper so as to reach me by April 1, 2000.    


Harsha V. Dehejia
256, Elgin Street 
Ottawa, ON
Canada K2P 1L9
Telephone 613-233-3103
Facsimile  613-233-2311
hdehejia at ccs.carleton.ca



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000127/3b6ffeff/attachment.htm>

From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Jan 27 12:40:46 2000
From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 13:40:46 +0100
Subject: expiation for eating beef
Message-ID: <161227055560.23782.16135573594135142124.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Tim, hope you are doing well!

Already in the Rgveda it is said to the sacrificial horse "you do not really
die here, you are not hurt ... " (RV 1.162.21ab). This is very similar to
the first two paadas of a verse in TB 3.7.7.14. Here the next two paadas
run: "you are going to the gods along paths easy to traverse, where those go
who have acted well, not the evil-doers". The verse in the TB is intended
for the Pazubandha. Taking into account that the relatively simple animal
sacrifice must have been more frequent and common than the Azvamedha in
which RV 1.162.21 is employed (already in the RV the horse sacrifice seems
to have a strong link with royal power), it could very well be that the
verse in TB 3.7.7.14 is at least as old if not older than the RV verse which
presupposes an established ritual (as far as the meaning is concerned the TB
verse seems to be a stronger unity, the last two paadas in RV show a slight
change in topic). (In other words: although the TB is established later as
text the mantra it records NEED not be younger than the RV 1.164; sorry for
the deviation from the subject.) More in my recent paper "to kill or not to
kill the sacrificial animal? arguments and perspectives in brahminical
ethical philosophy" in Violence denied: violence, non-violence and the
rationalization of violence in south asian cultural history (Brill 1999) (on
the animal and horse sacrifice: p. 117ff).

Much useful material (citations etc.) can be found, of course, in the
Encyclopedia of Kane, Pune (start via the indices under beef, meat eating).
As for your dharmic problem: the mainstream Hindu idea is that "in sacrifice
killing is no killing" (Manu 5.39), and that eating meat resulting from a
proper sacrifice is O.K. This means that before undertaking to eat the beef
one should make sure the animal is killed in a proper Vedic cow sacrifice,
and further ignore the Kalivarjyas (they are just Smrti) which forbid cow
sacrifice in the present age.  However, if improper beef has already been
consumed the only way out I can think of is to go to one of those tiirthas
which absolve you even from mahaapaatakas (e.g., if I remember it properly
after fifteen years, in Rameshvaram there is a well where Rama is said to
have expiated for the sin of killing the Brahmin RaavaNa).

Greetings, JH

Jan E.M. Houben,
Kern Institute, Leiden University,
P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA   Leiden
jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy C. Cahill <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 11:08 PM
Subject: expiation for eating beef


>Indologists!
>
>   I've been asked if there is any way that a Hindu can 'make up' for
>having accidently eaten beef. I checked Indology's archive and went
>through many messages under the heading *beef eating in the Veda* which
>deal with many aspects of the topic. I also searched under 'expiation' and
>read a brief exchange on the Gosava ritual. But I'm wondering if there was
>any ritual or procedure (or if one has been developed in modern times)
>which is intended to remove the stain of eating beef. I remember the
>'panca-gavyam' for returning from abroad, but I've never heard about
>anything which would apply specificly to this. Washing in the Ganga is all
>I could come up with! I seem to remember an apology that a ritualist gives
>to his sacrificial victim --the specific reference to this would be
>appreciated.
>
>best,
>Tim Cahill




From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Jan 27 12:53:38 2000
From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 13:53:38 +0100
Subject: expiation for eating beef
Message-ID: <161227055562.23782.4407552431958582812.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Tim, hope you are doing well!

Already in the Rgveda it is said to the sacrificial horse "you do not really
die here, you are not hurt ... " (RV 1.162.21ab). This is very similar to
the first two paadas of a verse in TB 3.7.7.14. Here the next two paadas
run: "you are going to the gods along paths easy to traverse, where those go
who have acted well, not the evil-doers". The verse in the TB is intended
for the Pazubandha. Taking into account that the relatively simple animal
sacrifice must have been more frequent and common than the Azvamedha in
which RV 1.162.21 is employed (already in the RV the horse sacrifice seems
to have a strong link with royal power), it could very well be that the
verse in TB 3.7.7.14 is at least as old if not older than the RV verse which
presupposes an established ritual (as far as the meaning is concerned the TB
verse seems to be a stronger unity, the last two paadas in RV show a slight
change in topic). (In other words: although the TB is established later as
text the mantra it records NEED not be younger than the RV 1.164; sorry for
the deviation from the subject.) More in my recent paper "to kill or not to
kill the sacrificial animal? arguments and perspectives in brahminical
ethical philosophy" in Violence denied: violence, non-violence and the
rationalization of violence in south asian cultural history (Brill 1999) (on
the animal and horse sacrifice: p. 117ff).

Much useful material (citations etc.) can be found, of course, in the
Encyclopedia of Kane, Pune (start via the indices under beef, meat eating).
As for your dharmic problem: the mainstream Hindu idea is that "in sacrifice
killing is no killing" (Manu 5.39), and that eating meat resulting from a
proper sacrifice is O.K. This means that before undertaking to eat the beef
one should make sure the animal is killed in a proper Vedic cow sacrifice,
and further ignore the Kalivarjyas (they are just Smrti) which forbid cow
sacrifice in the present age.  However, if improper beef has already been
consumed the only way out I can think of is to go to one of those tiirthas
which absolve you even from mahaapaatakas (e.g., if I remember it properly
after several years, in Rameshvaram there is a well where Rama is said to
have expiated for the sin of killing the Brahmin RaavaNa).

Greetings, JH

Jan E.M. Houben,
Kern Institute, Leiden University,
P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA   Leiden
jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy C. Cahill <tccahill at LOYNO.EDU>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 11:08 PM
Subject: expiation for eating beef


>Indologists!
>
>   I've been asked if there is any way that a Hindu can 'make up' for
>having accidently eaten beef. I checked Indology's archive and went
>through many messages under the heading *beef eating in the Veda* which
>deal with many aspects of the topic. I also searched under 'expiation' and
>read a brief exchange on the Gosava ritual. But I'm wondering if there was
>any ritual or procedure (or if one has been developed in modern times)
>which is intended to remove the stain of eating beef. I remember the
>'panca-gavyam' for returning from abroad, but I've never heard about
>anything which would apply specificly to this. Washing in the Ganga is all
>I could come up with! I seem to remember an apology that a ritualist gives
>to his sacrificial victim --the specific reference to this would be
>appreciated.
>
>best,
>Tim Cahill




From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL  Thu Jan 27 13:14:24 2000
From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 14:14:24 +0100
Subject: sorry for repetition
Message-ID: <161227055564.23782.18115707873789417326.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Indologists,
sorry for the repetition of the message Re: expiation for eating beef. There
were some problems in my subscription to the list due to recent changes in
my server.
JH




From haridasc at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jan 27 22:19:40 2000
From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 14:19:40 -0800
Subject: consumption of horse meat in India
Message-ID: <161227055579.23782.16316075547669254661.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Listmembers,


Any textually based thoughts on the consumption of
horse flesh?

Thanks in advance.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Thu Jan 27 14:36:49 2000
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 00 17:36:49 +0300
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
In-Reply-To: <388F4A89.94DEE71A@jps.net>
Message-ID: <161227055565.23782.9534071363358634466.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Though the MahAbhArata really places the ZAkadvIpa continent to the
east of Meru (XII.14.23), the first ZAkadvIpa (Maga) Brahmans seem
to come from the NW, acc. to the SAmba legend, related in the SAmba-,
BhaviSya-, Brahma- and SkandapurANa. In this case the ZAkadvIpa as
the place of their origin is to be connected rather with the historical
SakasthAna, i.e. modern Seistan in Eastern Iran. Invited by the KRSNa's son SAmba,
the Magas first settled in Mitravana/SAmbapura/MUlasthAna (=
historical Multan). They brought with them the pratice of wearing avyanga
(a corruption of the Avestan term meaning the "sacred girdle of the
Zoroastrians") and the specific cult of the Sun-God, worshipped under
his Old Iranian name Mithra, which was later replaced by Middle
Iranian Mihr/Mehr/Mihir (from whence Indian Mihira). Research done by
several generations of scholars has revealed the gradual spread of the
ZAkadvIpa Brahmans over the Indian subcontinent and eventually their
penetration even into Eastern India. The well-known Indian ethnologist P.L.Vidyarthi
in his brilliant monograph on the city of GayA in Bihar expressed his opinion of
Iranian (Magian) origin of the local ZAkadvIpi Brahmans. The Bibliography on the
problem of Indian Magi (including basic works by R.C.Hazra, K.Hoffman and H. von Stietencron)
see in my article "An Iranian Myth in Eastern India: GayOmart and the Mythology of GayA"
in: Orientalia Suecana (Uppsala), XLVII (1998), pp. 148-149.

                                                        Ya.V.

Wed, 26 Jan 100 22:27 +0300 MSK Paul Kekai Manansala wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK:

> Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
> >
>
> > I have assumed that Sakadwipa is the land beyond Hindukush
> > from where the Maga came from, and the descendants of some
> > of them are know as the Sakadvipis in Bihar.
> >
> > What specific clues Mahabharata and Puranas have regarding its
> > location?
> >
>
> The Mahabharata states that Sakadwipa is east of Meru (in the
> description of the dvipas).
>
> A number of Puranas place Udayagiri, which is traditionally located in
> the East (Ramayana, etc.) on Sakadwipa. Matsya, at least, also locate
> the home of Garuda on Sakadwipa, and Garuda home is also associated with
> the eastern regions in the Ramayana and other works.
>
> Sakadwipa is described in Puranas and other works as lush in Salmali
> (silk-cotton), Parijata (coral tree) and sandalwood trees, all tropical
> varieties of the Indies.  Another such tree, of course, is the namesake
> Saka, or teak, tree.
>
> I have discussed this subject with a few Sakadwipi brahmins from
> Deoghar, Noida and Patna and they agreed that their origin was from the
> far east.
>
> Whether this was connected in any way at all with Epic and Puranic
> tradition, they did not say.
>
> Regards,
> Paul Kekai Manansala
>
> --
> Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/
>
---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:47 +0300 MSK




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Fri Jan 28 14:39:35 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 06:39:35 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
Message-ID: <161227055583.23782.2773974369801939526.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Prof. Vassilkov & Indologists,

Does the churning of the Milky Ocean elaborated in the
MBh. involve Krishna? What later puraNas other than
the one described in van Buitenan and Dimmitt's purana
collection include Krishna in the Churning of the Milky ocean
producing Surabhi, the divinely cow?

True, MBh places the Meru in the east; But remember reading
a paper on Meru by Ian Mabbett a while ago (in the de Jong
comm. vol.?); Usually locating the meru mt. is so vague;
Tamil saiva puranas locate them in the south or srilanka.
Rajaraja Chola called his temple as Meru; Thiruvi.daimarudhur
mahalingeshvarar temple has a famous meru.

Does the churning of the ocean legend involve more of poetic
fancy, something like the Rama building the Sethu bridge
with monkeys and bears?

Regards,
SM


--- Yaroslav Vassilkov <yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU> wrote:
> Though the MahAbhArata really places the ZAkadvIpa continent to the
> east of Meru (XII.14.23), the first ZAkadvIpa (Maga) Brahmans seem
> to come from the NW, acc. to the SAmba legend, related in the SAmba-,
> BhaviSya-, Brahma- and SkandapurANa. In this case the ZAkadvIpa as
> the place of their origin is to be connected rather with the historical
> SakasthAna, i.e. modern Seistan in Eastern Iran. Invited by the KRSNa's son
> SAmba,
> the Magas first settled in Mitravana/SAmbapura/MUlasthAna (=
> historical Multan). They brought with them the pratice of wearing avyanga
> (a corruption of the Avestan term meaning the "sacred girdle of the
> Zoroastrians") and the specific cult of the Sun-God, worshipped under
> his Old Iranian name Mithra, which was later replaced by Middle
> Iranian Mihr/Mehr/Mihir (from whence Indian Mihira). Research done by
> several generations of scholars has revealed the gradual spread of the
> ZAkadvIpa Brahmans over the Indian subcontinent and eventually their
> penetration even into Eastern India. The well-known Indian ethnologist
> P.L.Vidyarthi
> in his brilliant monograph on the city of GayA in Bihar expressed his opinion
> of
> Iranian (Magian) origin of the local ZAkadvIpi Brahmans. The Bibliography on
> the
> problem of Indian Magi (including basic works by R.C.Hazra, K.Hoffman and H.
> von Stietencron)
> see in my article "An Iranian Myth in Eastern India: GayOmart and the
> Mythology of GayA"
> in: Orientalia Suecana (Uppsala), XLVII (1998), pp. 148-149.
>
>                                                         Ya.V.
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
> Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:47 +0300 MSK
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From kekai at JPS.NET  Fri Jan 28 17:42:39 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 09:42:39 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
Message-ID: <161227055571.23782.11668416577585779872.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote:

>Though the MahAbhArata really places the ZAkadvIpa continent to the
>east of Meru (XII.14.23),

Yes, in Roy's notes to his translation, he says this refers to SE Asia
and the Pacific.

>In this case the ZAkadvIpa as
> the place of their origin is to be connected rather with the historical
> SakasthAna, i.e. modern Seistan in Eastern Iran.

There is a person on Usenet who goes by the name of Gandasa who has
claimed that there was a place called Sakasthan. Is that really the
case?  Where is this SakasthAna mentioned?

> Research done by
> several generations of scholars has revealed the gradual spread of the
> ZAkadvIpa Brahmans over the Indian subcontinent and eventually their
> penetration even into Eastern India. The well-known Indian ethnologist P.L.Vidyarthi
> in his brilliant monograph on the city of GayA in Bihar expressed his opinion of
> Iranian (Magian) origin of the local ZAkadvIpi Brahmans.


You might want to consult the Sakadwipa Brahmans own traditional work on
the subject:  Magavyakti by Krishnadasa Misra.

If you track this down please photocopy it for me and I will gladly
reimburse you for your trouble.

I will have to contact my three Sakadwipi colleagues as to why they
believe in an eastern origin (i.e., family or gotra tradition, etc.).
All are advanced in age and learned in traditional Sakadwipi lore such
as astrology.

One interesting problem with a NW origin is why are there no Sakadwipis
left in the N or NW?  All seem centered in the Bihar, Bengal, N. Orissa
and E. UP region (until recent times). I have never heard of any
tradition with the group itself that shows any knowledge of coming from
the west.

An interesting note on the unique social system of Sakadwipis.
Marriage is allowed within the gotra, but not within  social units
known as "pur".

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From rchawla at DELLNET.COM  Fri Jan 28 18:53:57 2000
From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 10:53:57 -0800
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055592.23782.18225615935236955042.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----- Original Message -----
From: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU>Subject: Re: gifts for Sanskrit
teachers

> "Even if you are incapable of study, be dedicated to carrying out some
> work for me (such as taking the cows to graze? or washing my laundry?).
> Doing even such tasks for me, you will succeed (= I will give you a
> passing grade in this class?)."   Madhav Deshpande

As I understand, the purpose of scriptural studies is not to get passing
grade but to achieve self transformation and self awakening.  Therefore,
Karma yoga ( such as taking teacher's cows to graze,or wash his laundry)  is
one of the paths for people who are incapable of study - due to many
circumstances such as lack of time,  or other reasons.

R.Chawla




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Fri Jan 28 14:41:52 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 14:41:52 +0000
Subject: Gombrich on British higher education
Message-ID: <161227055585.23782.5697415793384044994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I've just added an essay by Prof. Richard Gombrich to the "position
papers" section of the INDOLOGY website.  Richard is, of course, well
known to the indological community, so I thought this essay would be of
general interest, even though it is about British "higher" education in
general, and not indology specifically.

I would ask colleagues not to use the INDOLOGY list for the discussion of
this paper, since it is not indological.  If a discussion develops on some
other list, or between members privately, it would be nice if you let the
list know where the discussion is happening.

Dominik Wujastyk




From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Jan 28 23:32:29 2000
From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 15:32:29 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
Message-ID: <161227055590.23782.7072046472143027840.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The epic bhArata places zAkadvIpa in the east plausibly because
Assam, Mizoram, Nagaland etc., abounds in tropical vegetation;
Of course, Burma could be the ancient zAkadvIpa because its
teak is world famous and probably ancient Indian geography
around first century knew only upto Burma or so. Garuda,
represnts the sun in many of world's myths and hence the
solar deity Vishnu's vahana could have its home in the east.
Few centuries later, seeing the same type of tropics as
the northeast india, mythmakers from India could have spread
stories about Garuda in Indonesia, etc.,

Best wishes,
V. Iyer






______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE  Fri Jan 28 15:00:50 2000
From: pwyzlic at UNI-BONN.DE (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 16:00:50 +0100
Subject: Job Announcement University of Bonn
Message-ID: <161227055586.23782.6312968888586102157.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The Indological Institut here at Bonn University asked me to pass along
this job announcement. Please circulate it among any colleagues who might
be interested.

Regards
Peter Wyzlic

-------------------------<Original text>----------------------------
In der philosophischen Fakult?t der Rheinischen
Friedrich-Wilhelms-Universit?t Bonn ist ab sofort die

    C3-Professur f?r Indologie

zu besetzen.

Die Bewerberinnen und Bewerber sollen das Fach Indologie in Forschung und
Lehre vertreten. Die Mitarbeit im interdisziplin?ren Asien-Zentrum der
Fakult?t wird erwartet.

Habilitierte Bewerberinnen und Bewerber werden gebeten, ihre Unterlagen
(Lebenslauf, Schriftenverzeichnis, Verzeichnis der Lehrveranstaltungen,
Zeugniskopien) bis 30.04.2000 dem Dekan der Philosophischen Fakult?t der
Universit?t Bonn, Am Hof 1, D-53113 Bonn, einzureichen.

Die Universit?t Bonn strebt eine Erh?hung des Frauenanteils
an. Bewerbungen von Frauen sind daher besonders erw?nscht.

Schwerbehinderte Bewerberinnen und Bewerber werden bei gleicher
Qualifikation bevorzugt eingestellt.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Peter Wyzlic
Indologisches Seminar, Universitaet Bonn
Regina-Pacis-Weg 7
D-53113 Bonn
Germany




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jan 29 00:17:07 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 00 16:17:07 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
Message-ID: <161227055581.23782.12424884987945488784.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Yashwant Malaiya wrote:
>
> >Though the MahAbhArata really places the ZAkadvIpa continent to the
> >east of Meru (XII.14.23),
>
> My guess is that mount Meru corresponds to the region where
> the Hindukush and Himalaya ranges merge. I have wondered if
> Tirich Mir, the sacred mountain of the Kafirs (who are now
> virtually extinct) has some connection with Meru.
>

Some astronomers place Meru on the same meridian as Ujjain and others
on the same meridian with Lanka.  The former could support your
theory. The Chinese seemed to think that Meru was in the Kunlun range
which seems more in keeping with the Lanka meridian. However, sometimes
Ujjain and Lanka are placed on the same longitude so it's not exactly a
science.

The mountain though seems to be located in the northernmost region known
to ancient India.


> I have wondered about the "Mandaga" who came with the
> Maga, but were given Shudra status. What happened to
> them? Also I have wondered about the origin of the
> term Bhojaka (explanation is that the Maga married
> daughters of the Bhoj clan of the Yadavas).
>

The Bhavishya Purana explains that the Bhojakas offer food (bhoj)
to the Sun every day. They were the temple priests. They had a practice
of remaining silent while eating.

The Purana also has interesting discussion on caste stating that it
should not be a hindrance to spiritual growth. The examples given of low
caste persons who achieved success are Parasara, Vasistha, Mandapala and
Shukadeva.


>
> Gandasa's (Gurupdesh S. Pandher) "Sakasthan" is where the
> Jats live today (NW part of the Indian subcontinet). Its a new
> political movement with apparently only one supporter so far.
>

So that's what happened to Gurupdesh. He also believes, following
Cunningham, that the Mauryans and Guptas had Western extra-Indian
origin. Considering that is used to be common practice to assign East
Indian culture (Neolithic, Copper Hoard, urban, etc.) to such
influences, he has a lot of published material to work with (but nothing
substanial).


Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala

--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU  Sat Jan 29 14:44:55 2000
From: cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Chris Wallis)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 00 09:44:55 -0500
Subject: Question on Text
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.4.21.0001281438070.19509-100000@socrates-a.ucl.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <161227055593.23782.3420684157022052374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Greetings, list members,

Has anyone seen a book called The Yoga of Spiritual Devotion: a Modern
Translation of the Narada Bhakti Sutras by Prem Prakash (Inner Traditions
Ltd.)?  If you have seen this book, can you comment on its translation,
scholarship, accuracy, and general worthiness?  Would you recommend it to
a student ever?
thanks for the responses, you may reply off-list if you prefer.

best wishes,
Chris Wallis
University of Rochester


______________________________________
        Christopher D. Wallis
President, Religion & Classics Council
      Intern, Interfaith Chapel
       University of Rochester
        ** Believe in love. **




From kekai at JPS.NET  Sat Jan 29 19:28:59 2000
From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 00 11:28:59 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
Message-ID: <161227055588.23782.7960757383349284727.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote:
>
> Dear Prof. Vassilkov & Indologists,
>
> Does the churning of the Milky Ocean elaborated in the
> MBh. involve Krishna? What later puraNas other than
> the one described in van Buitenan and Dimmitt's purana
> collection include Krishna in the Churning of the Milky ocean
> producing Surabhi, the divinely cow?
>

Did you know that possibly one of the earliest instances of 'cow burial'
with the domesticated Bos indicus comes from inhumation burials at Non
Nok Tha dating from 4,000 to 3,000 BCE?

The burials usually included a socketed copper instrument on the chest,
together with pottery and animal bones including probably domesticated
dogs and pigs.

Most of the cattle bones were of young females suggesting some type of
ritual was involved.

The importance of copper in the burial is also noteworthy.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
--
Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Jan 30 09:36:27 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 09:36:27 +0000
Subject: armageddon myth
In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3BE4@SMGMAIL>
Message-ID: <161227055597.23782.11692275965390233273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I think you will find that Christ rode a donkey, not a white horse.  :-)

There is a reasonably well-developed literature on the borrowing of Asian
material in the Bible.  See, e.g., Derrett's recent article in the JRAS,
and cited literature therein.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote:

> The storey of christs resurrection, riding a white horse etc is much more
[...]
> R Banerjee
>

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list.




From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK  Sun Jan 30 09:44:16 2000
From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 09:44:16 +0000
Subject: Armageddon Myth
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.96.1000127120900.110836F-100000@spemail.loyno.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055599.23782.1890717629853880223.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Timothy C. Cahill wrote:


>
> I don't believe this site is listed on Dominik's Indology web site --but I
> might have missed it.
>

I've just added it to the General page.  Thanks for the pointer.

--
Dominik Wujastyk
Founder, INDOLOGY list




From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN  Sun Jan 30 04:46:56 2000
From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 10:16:56 +0530
Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000127065007.00a4b650@pop.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <161227055595.23782.17113743352574029208.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Jean Fezas wrote: Gautama dharma-sUtra chapter 12:
> 12.4.   Now if he listens intentionally to (a recitation of) the Veda,
> his ears shall be filled with (molten) tin or lac.

 Generally Manu is blamed for this prescription : the Ambedkar
website seems to imply that Manu was the culprit,
[ http://www.angelfire.com/ak/ambedkar/BRManusmriti.html ] though the
actual citation is apparently Gautama.

Q: Why is Manu so generally blamed for this ? Are there perhaps different
versions of Manu - a stricter Southern version ? Or is it just a case
of popular misconception ? Is Manu actually innocent ? How common was this
`pouring lead into ears' as shown by other literature ?

> Mani Varadarajan <mani at SHASTA.STANFORD.EDU> wrote on Mon, 9 Nov 1998 :
> "If I recall, such a pronouncement is not found in the manu-smRti
> but in the gautama dharma-SAstra."

Online Manu Smirti [ http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/manu-full.html ]
does not contain any such law.

Q:: Where did Gautama live ? Perhaps in the South ? Does he pre-date or
post-date Manu ? In which parts of India/periods of history was/is Gautama
followed ? Which sects accept him instead of Manu ? How much influence did
they have on each other ? If Gautama post-dates Manu, does it indicate a
hardening of caste rules with time ? Or is Gautama, generally thought of
as a `follower of Manu' citing a now-lost law of Manu ? Or are Gautama and
his rule in fact insignificant ?

Samar




From cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU  Sun Jan 30 19:16:10 2000
From: cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Chris Wallis)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 14:16:10 -0500
Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPX.4.21.0001300939550.28260-100000@hpc23.ac.iopb.res.in>
Message-ID: <161227055601.23782.11215673628710768050.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> Q: Why is Manu so generally blamed for this ? Are there perhaps different
> versions of Manu - a stricter Southern version ? Or is it just a case
> of popular misconception ? Is Manu actually innocent ? How common was this
> `pouring lead into ears' as shown by other literature ?

A: A.L. Basham notes that though this punishment is written in the
lawbooks, no skull has ever been found with lead traces; IOW, we have no
evidence that this ever actually occurred (as far as he knew).
"The Origins and Development of Classical Hinduism", p. 10.

Chris Wallis


______________________________________
        Christopher D. Wallis
President, Religion & Classics Council
      Intern, Interfaith Chapel
       University of Rochester
        ** Believe in love. **




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 30 20:55:03 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 15:55:03 -0500
Subject: Help needed in Marathi spelling and pronunciation
Message-ID: <161227055603.23782.5604534059078649534.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

A chanting book I have has mostly sanskrit verses but there are some modern
marathi verses.  In the marathi verses there are words with nasalized
vowels.  These are indicated in the romanized chanting book by vowels with a
tilde and in the devanagari version by chandrabindu (or bindu if the vowel
has a portion above the line).

Marathi words with nasalized vowel spelling in the verse:

(a tilde after the vowel indicates tilde over the vowel,
capital vowel indicates a long vowel, M is bindu, & is chandrabindu).

Romanized
transliteration               Devanagari

karU~                         karU&
kiraNe~                       kiraNeM
hame~                         hameM
bhedo~                        bhedoM

The pronunciation guide at the back of the romanized chanting book says
that: "[some hymns] are in Marathi rather than Sanskrit and for this reason
a tilde (~) over a vowel is used to indicate a nasal sound made at the back
of the throat with the mouth open; the sound is similar to the ending of
"hunh" or the nasalized vowels in French."

But in looking through "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin P. Masica I come
across these statements about Marathi spelling and pronunciation.

page 118 of Masica: "Nasalization is absent from ...most Marathi dialects
(although present in Konkani and retained until recently in Marathi
spelling)."

page 437 of Masica: "...[Marathi] recently spelling reformed to bring closer
to pronunciation of colloquial standard, mainly by dropping unpronounced
nasals;"

1) Can someone elaborate what this "recent spelling reform" is.

2) And what would be the pronunciation and spelling of the Marathi words I
listed in view of this "recent spelling reform".

3) Is the Poona dialect considered the standard?  Is it the largest?


Many thanks in advance,

Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Jan 30 21:55:10 2000
From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 16:55:10 -0500
Subject: Correction to Help needed in Marathi spelling and pronunciation
Message-ID: <161227055609.23782.12226472933886782258.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear list members,

My original message for "help needed in Marathi spelling and pronunciation
has the wrong words in the example.  This message has the correct ones. Also
where a nasalized vowel is indicated in the romanized version bindu (not
chandrabindu is in the devanagari version) Apologies.

A chanting book I have has mostly sanskrit verses but there are some modern
marathi verses.  In the marathi verses there are words with nasalized
vowels.  These are indicated in the romanized chanting book by vowels with a
tilde and in the devanagari version by bindu.

Marathi words with nasalized vowel spelling in the verse:

(a tilde after the vowel indicates tilde over the vowel,
capital vowel indicates a long vowel, M is bindu.

Romanized
transliteration               Devanagari

tithe~                        titheM
aThavItA~                     aThavItAM
mitU~paNAce                   mitUMpaNAce
tU~ci                         tUMci
mAgaNe~ te~                   mAgaNeM teM

The pronunciation guide at the back of the romanized chanting book says
that: "[some hymns] are in Marathi rather than Sanskrit and for this reason
a tilde (~) over a vowel is used to indicate a nasal sound made at the back
of the throat with the mouth open; the sound is similar to the ending of
"hunh" or the nasalized vowels in French."

But in looking through "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin P. Masica I come
across these statements about Marathi spelling and pronunciation.

page 118 of Masica: "Nasalization is absent from ...most Marathi dialects
(although present in Konkani and retained until recently in Marathi
spelling)."

page 437 of Masica: "...[Marathi] recently spelling reformed to bring closer
to pronunciation of colloquial standard, mainly by dropping unpronounced
nasals;"

1) Can someone elaborate what this "recent spelling reform" is.

2) And what would be the pronunciation and spelling of the Marathi words I
listed in view of this "recent spelling reform".

3) Is the Poona dialect considered the standard?  Is it the largest?


Many thanks in advance,

Harry Spier
371 Brickman Rd.
Hurleyville, New York
USA 12747


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU  Sun Jan 30 22:30:04 2000
From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 17:30:04 -0500
Subject: [Lawrence Mccrea <ljmccrea@midway.uchicago.edu>: Summer Sanskrit              at University of Chicago]
Message-ID: <161227055611.23782.5554945289810483720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Colleagues,
I was asked to forward the following announcement to your mailing list
or listserv. Please contact Lawrence Mccrea directly for any further
info.
David Magier

------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:04:43 -0600
From: Lawrence Mccrea <ljmccrea at midway.uchicago.edu>
To: magier at columbia.edu
Subject: Summer Sanskrit at University of Chicago

Dear Professor Magier,

I'd appreciate it if you could post the following to South Asia related
lists.  Thanks.

***********************************************************************

                        SUMMER SANSKRIT AT UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO

        This summer the Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
at the University of Chicago will be offering intensive courses in
Intermediate (second year) and Advanced (third/fourth year) Sanskrit.
The courses run from June 26 through August 25, 2000.  Descriptions
follow:


        INTERMEDIATE SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3

        This course sequence is designed for students who have studied the
basics of Classical Sanskrit grammar and have some experience in reading
simple Sanskrit texts.  The courses will consist of the reading of
excerpts from Sanskrit epic, dramatic and poetic works and, depending on
time available and student interest, narrative and/or philosophical
prose.  The goal of the course is to develop facility in reading by
exposing students to a variety of styes and genres of Classical Sanskrit
literature.  Prerequisite: At least one year prior study of Sanskrit.
Offered as part of The Summer Institute for Ancient and Medieval
Languages.
        (9 weeks, June 26 - August 25, 10:00 - 12:00 AM, MTWThF, Instructor:
Lawrence McCrea, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations)


        ADVANCED SANSKRIT 1, 2, 3

        This course sequence is designed for students with significant
experience in the reading of Sanskrit texts.  The courses will consist
of the reading and analysis of extended portions of Classicl Sanskrit
philosophical and poetic works.  The goal of the course is to give
students a subtantive acquaintance with some of the major monuments of
Sanskrit thought and culture.  Prerequisite: At least two years prior
study of Sanskrit.  Offered as part of The Summer Institute for Ancient
and Medieval Languages.
        (9 weeks, June 26 - August 25, 12:00 - 2:00 PM, MTWThF, Instructor:
Lawrence McCrea, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations)

        For further information on tuition, registration, fees, etc., please
contact:
                Summer Session Office
                Graham School of General Studies
                University of Chicago
                5835 South Kimbark Ave., Judd 207
                Chicago, IL 60637
                Telephone: 773/702-6033
                Fax: 773/702-6814
                Web-site: http://www.grahamschool.uchicago.edu

***********************************************************************




From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Jan 31 02:14:00 2000
From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 18:14:00 -0800
Subject: Help needed in Marathi spelling and pronunciation
Message-ID: <161227055615.23782.617508728304592960.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

----Original Message Follows----
From: Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Help needed in Marathi spelling and pronunciation
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:39:04 -0500

MD: The Peshwas were
Chitpavan Brahmins, migrants from the region of Konkan, and the dialects
of Marathi in Konkan to this day have more pronounced nasalization of
vowels.

VA: And I might add that to this day, other Maharashtrians ridicule the
'Kobras' (Konkanastha Brahmins) of Sadashiv Peth, Narayan Peth, Kasba Peth
etc. for their overtly nasalized speech. I did a stereotypical imitation of
a 'Kobra' in a play in my college (at Pune). The Maharashtrians of Solapur,
Kolhapur, Aurangabad etc. do accept the Puneri Marathi as the standard
version and seem very pleased when they encounter someone from Pune, because
they get to hear the 'sweet Marathi' of Punekars.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Jan 31 00:39:04 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 19:39:04 -0500
Subject: Help needed in Marathi spelling and pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <20000130205503.59868.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <161227055613.23782.5688369260354673537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

The standard Marathi developed essentially as standardization of the
dialect of Marathi used by the Peshwas in Pune.  The Peshwas were
Chitpavan Brahmins, migrants from the region of Konkan, and the dialects
of Marathi in Konkan to this day have more pronounced nasalization of
vowels.  In Pune, the written standard Marathi followed the nasalized
Konkan dialect of the Peshwas, though this nasalization was not evident in
the Marathi spoken by the rest of the Brahmins and others in the region of
Pune.  Over time, there developed a recognizable gap between the written
nasalized Marathi and the actually spoken standard of Pune.  For example,
a word for "some" was written as kaa~hii~, with nasalization marked with
Anusvaaras on both syllables.  Now this has been taken out and the word is
written simply as kaahii.  There are good discussions of these issues in
Marathi materials.  I will see if I can locate any English language
discussion of these issues.
        When I learned Marathi writing in schools, I learned it with all
these nasalized spellings, and I had to unlearn these nasalized spellings
a few years ago when I published a book in Marathi about Sanskrit and
Prakrit languages.
 Best,
                                        Madhav Deshpande

On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Harry Spier wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> A chanting book I have has mostly sanskrit verses but there are some modern
> marathi verses.  In the marathi verses there are words with nasalized
> vowels.  These are indicated in the romanized chanting book by vowels with a
> tilde and in the devanagari version by chandrabindu (or bindu if the vowel
> has a portion above the line).
>
> Marathi words with nasalized vowel spelling in the verse:
>
> (a tilde after the vowel indicates tilde over the vowel,
> capital vowel indicates a long vowel, M is bindu, & is chandrabindu).
>
> Romanized
> transliteration               Devanagari
>
> karU~                         karU&
> kiraNe~                       kiraNeM
> hame~                         hameM
> bhedo~                        bhedoM
>
> The pronunciation guide at the back of the romanized chanting book says
> that: "[some hymns] are in Marathi rather than Sanskrit and for this reason
> a tilde (~) over a vowel is used to indicate a nasal sound made at the back
> of the throat with the mouth open; the sound is similar to the ending of
> "hunh" or the nasalized vowels in French."
>
> But in looking through "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin P. Masica I come
> across these statements about Marathi spelling and pronunciation.
>
> page 118 of Masica: "Nasalization is absent from ...most Marathi dialects
> (although present in Konkani and retained until recently in Marathi
> spelling)."
>
> page 437 of Masica: "...[Marathi] recently spelling reformed to bring closer
> to pronunciation of colloquial standard, mainly by dropping unpronounced
> nasals;"
>
> 1) Can someone elaborate what this "recent spelling reform" is.
>
> 2) And what would be the pronunciation and spelling of the Marathi words I
> listed in view of this "recent spelling reform".
>
> 3) Is the Poona dialect considered the standard?  Is it the largest?
>
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Harry Spier
> 371 Brickman Rd.
> Hurleyville, New York
> USA 12747
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Jan 30 18:08:09 2000
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 00 21:08:09 +0300
Subject: Sakadwipa (RE: Rising of the sea and other Migration myths)
In-Reply-To: <NCBBIIPKOKJJJCMPMOJBKEIKCGAA.malaiya@cs.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055605.23782.7187082032058714978.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Thu, 27 Jan 100 22:49 +0300 MSK Yashwant Malaiya wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK:

... Also I have wondered about the origin of the
> term Bhojaka (explanation is that the Maga married
> daughters of the Bhoj clan of the Yadavas).

The name of Bhojakas (as a branch of the Magas) is considered to be
an Indian adaptation of a Middle Iranian term: *bozhak 'healer',
'savior'.
-
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:54 +0300 MSK




From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU  Sun Jan 30 21:18:46 2000
From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 00:18:46 +0300
Subject: Sakadwipa (Churning of the Ocean)
In-Reply-To: <20000128143935.28752.qmail@web302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161227055607.23782.10335550476838188236.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Fri, 28 Jan 100 17:39 +0300 MSK Swaminathan Madhuresan wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK:

> Does the churning of the ocean legend involve more of poetic
> fancy...?

The answer, as it seems to me, is: yes, in a way. Acc. to the interpretation
which looks most plausible (see: S.A.Dange. Legends in the Mahabharata. Delhi,
MBL, 1969, pp. 241-280; R.Parrot. A Discussion of the two Metaphors in
the "Churning of the Ocean" from the Mahabharata. - ABORI 1983 [Poone 1984],
vol. LXIV, pts. 1-4, pp. 17-33), this story is a mythic metaphor based on
the ritual practice of pressing (and mixing with milk) of Soma, as well as
(partly) on the process of butter churning.

As for another question, in the MahAbhArata version of the myth KRSNa
does not appear (but ViSNu, of course, does).

Best regards
                                Ya.V.

---
Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu)
Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:11 +0300 MSK




From nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR  Mon Jan 31 03:58:19 2000
From: nimfa-promet at ZG.TEL.HR (Jadranka Schauer)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 04:58:19 +0100
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <161227055617.23782.8024945369948998697.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Dear Sirs, pranams.

Thank you very much for very educative and important subjects during my
subscribtion on your conference, but due to many other duties I will not
be able to cope with so many messages.

Please, unsubscribe me from INDOLOGY LIST and then after some time, I
will subscribe again.

Let me know if everything is in order.
?
?




From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU  Mon Jan 31 11:07:56 2000
From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 06:07:56 -0500
Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.10.10001301404020.14274724-100000@mail1.ats.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <161227055618.23782.16313833613227570300.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

In this connection, I came across a series of documents in the files of
the Peshwa rulers of Maharashtra (Peshwa Daftar, Vol. 43, pp. 92-94,
edited by G.H. Sardesai).  Documents 108 and 110 deal with an interesting
case.  Doc. 108 is a letter from an official who caught a Jangam (a
non-Brahmin Shaiva priest) performing a Rudra (Taittiriya YV) recitation
during an Abhisheka for a Bania.  This was detected by the local Brahmins
and reported to the official.  Both the Jangam and the Bania were jailed,
and the document seeks advice from the Pune authorities on what to do. The
Bania claimed that he had no idea of what the Jangam was reciting, and
hence was believed to have lesser responsibility.  But then how did the
non-Brahmin Jangam learn the Vedic Rudra recitation?  Who taught him?
Document # 110 reports the finding that a Brahmin, Lakshman Bhat Bawle
taught the Rudra recitation to the non-Brahmin Jangam.  The Brahmin was
fined, was forced to give up the fees he had received from the Jangam, and
was made to perform a series of penances (equivalent to giving away 90
cows).  The document cites a verse from Manu that the Shudra reciting the
Vedas should be put to death by the king.  This, however, is reduced to
confiscating all his possessions (sarvasva-hara.na) and public humiliation
(vi.tambanaa).  Clearly, the Shudra reciting Vedas was not tolerated by
the authorities.  Here we have at least one documented case from the 18th
century Maharashtra ruled by the Brahmin Peshwas.  Interestingly, document
113 deals with how to punish a Brahmin who, in delusion (bhrama), ate the
food given by a Shudra.  These were real social/religious/legal issues,
and not purely Dharmashastric theories.  Best,
                                                Madhav

On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Chris Wallis wrote:

> > Q: Why is Manu so generally blamed for this ? Are there perhaps different
> > versions of Manu - a stricter Southern version ? Or is it just a case
> > of popular misconception ? Is Manu actually innocent ? How common was this
> > `pouring lead into ears' as shown by other literature ?
>
> A: A.L. Basham notes that though this punishment is written in the
> lawbooks, no skull has ever been found with lead traces; IOW, we have no
> evidence that this ever actually occurred (as far as he knew).
> "The Origins and Development of Classical Hinduism", p. 10.
>
> Chris Wallis
>
>
> ______________________________________
>         Christopher D. Wallis
> President, Religion & Classics Council
>       Intern, Interfaith Chapel
>        University of Rochester
>         ** Believe in love. **
>




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 31 14:25:53 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 06:25:53 -0800
Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers
Message-ID: <161227055620.23782.14964204726610409072.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> >> >Ah, the good old days - no
> >> >one has yet mentioned cattle, gold, land . . .
> >>
> >> Or kanyaa-daana!  :-)
> >
> >Are you suggesting somebody should send a maiden to Madhav?
>
  Poets and students, and not the teachers, normally seek maidens;
  Chandra went after Tara. Once a thirsty kavi got stuck in a dry land.
  He started demanding from Shiva: "Your rich brother-in-law
  can afford 16000, you are a beggar, why two? Send me your Ganga".

  Regards,
  SM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 31 17:25:20 2000
From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 09:25:20 -0800
Subject: Sakadwipa (Churning of the Ocean)
Message-ID: <161227055624.23782.15741608265190802717.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

>> Does the churning of the ocean legend involve more of poetic
>> fancy...?

<
The answer, as it seems to me, is: yes, in a way. Acc. to the interpretation
which looks most plausible (see: S.A.Dange. Legends in the Mahabharata. Delhi,
MBL, 1969, pp. 241-280; R.Parrot. A Discussion of the two Metaphors in
the "Churning of the Ocean" from the Mahabharata. - ABORI 1983 [Poone 1984],
vol. LXIV, pts. 1-4, pp. 17-33), this story is a mythic metaphor based on
the ritual practice of pressing (and mixing with milk) of Soma, as well as
(partly) on the process of butter churning.
>

    Indian epic authors probably did not know about molten lava
 fluid spewing out of erupting volcanoes. The amirtha is said
 to be gold-fluid in color because of Indian alchemy beliefs.The fire was
 caused by trees grinding against each other, There is a vedic ritual even
 today to produce fire this way, isn't it? "As the trees were crushed against
 one another, a fire born of their friction blazed forth into flames
 and enveloped Mount Mandara, which looked like a dark cloud charged
 with lightning. The fire burnt the elephants and lions who were
 driven out" (p.276, W. Doniger, Hindu myths).

    The MBh. projects some Krishna themes onto Vishnu; The idea of
 world surrounded by salty ocean, then liquor, butter, milk etc is old
 and in the churning of the ocean story, Krishna, the yaadhava's
 assets like milk, butter, merge with Vishnu. The mullai landscape
 of Krishna is (partly) a reason for the Milky ocean of Sriranganatha.

>As for another question, in the MahAbhArata version of the myth KRSNa
>does not appear (but ViSNu, of course, does).

 In the Vishnupuraa.na, Vishnu becomes the tortoise to support Mt. Mandara,
 climbs on that mount, sides with devas and demons. In any purana,
 does Krishna appear in the Churning legend?

 Many thanks and warm regards,
 SM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com




From rpeck at NECA.COM  Mon Jan 31 14:33:56 2000
From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 09:33:56 -0500
Subject: armageddon myth
Message-ID: <161227055622.23782.9402203279711085836.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

As to christianity building on Eastern concepts, there is considerable
evidence provided that an old definition of such terms as heart, soul,
spirit, yoni, lingum are used. The sermon on the mount can then be
retranslated from the Greek becoming an equivalent of an Eastern
developmental practice.

Regards bob peck

-----Original Message-----
From: Rajarshi Banerjee <rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM>
To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK <INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 1:26 PM
Subject: armageddon myth


>The storey of christs resurrection, riding a white horse etc is much more
>popular in christianity than in India and at a first guess the kalki avatAr
>storey would seem to be a borrowing from christian mythology and would hint
>at an early knowledge of christian texts in India.
>
>Are there any opinions about this. Is it possible that christianity picked
>up and elaborated on an oriental myth.
>
>regards
>
>R Banerjee
>




From OLES56 at AOL.COM  Mon Jan 31 18:53:13 2000
From: OLES56 at AOL.COM (Helen Oles Giunta)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 13:53:13 -0500
Subject: Sacred Offering
Message-ID: <161227055627.23782.6239759011523161946.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

 Sreenivas ; Now that dream is secure in an audio archive of 226 cassettes.


Dear Screenivas ,
Do you mean to say that this collection is availble for purchase? If so how
do I contact and whom ? Thanks,
Helen O. Giunta




From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM  Mon Jan 31 19:30:01 2000
From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 14:30:01 -0500
Subject: Sacred Offering
Message-ID: <161227055629.23782.18072038863312323689.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Sreenivas ; Now that dream is secure in an audio archive of 226 cassettes.


RB> A little surprising that they made cassetes.

A digital archive would be more secure and it would be faster and easier to
access , search, distribute compress, store etc..

regards

R banerjee




From cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU  Mon Jan 31 21:35:57 2000
From: cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Chris Wallis)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 16:35:57 -0500
Subject: Sacred Offering
In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3BF0@SMGMAIL>
Message-ID: <161227055631.23782.6774353809171838018.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

> A digital archive would be more secure and it would be faster and easier to
> access , search, distribute compress, store etc..
> R banerjee

Indeed as the full article explains, the archive is being transferred to
CD.  Magnetic tape is hardly a permanent medium.

C. Wallis




______________________________________
        Christopher D. Wallis
President, Religion & Classics Council
      Intern, Interfaith Chapel
       University of Rochester
        ** Believe in love. **




From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE  Mon Jan 31 18:44:10 2000
From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 19:44:10 +0100
Subject: Sacred Offering
Message-ID: <161227055625.23782.17403041131013698800.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

Heritage: Danish woman presents Pune with an audio archive of the Vedas
                        <snip>
Thank-fully Guni Hesting Kirchheiner, a Danish scholar, who dared to dream
of recording the four Vedas, each syllable uttered to perfection, and
preserving them for posterity. Now that dream is secure in an audio archive
of 226 cassettes.
                        <snip>

        http://www.the-week.com/20feb06/life8.htm

Regards,                                --Sreenivas




From markphillipsuts at YAHOO.COM  Mon Jan 31 23:55:56 2000
From: markphillipsuts at YAHOO.COM (Mark Phillips)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 00 10:55:56 +1100
Subject: Marmam research
Message-ID: <161227055633.23782.8710781703020232950.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io>

I am looking for artwork illustrations of the twelve padu marmam and ninety six thodu marmam. Can anybody suggest a source please?

Many thanks,
Mark Phillips.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20000201/d743b18c/attachment.htm>