From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 1 02:40:55 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 18:40:55 -0800 Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers Message-ID: <161227055639.23782.13253398615937580049.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> [Thanks for all sorts of gifts coming my way. When I was a student in Pune, we had a convenient interpretation of a verse of the Bhagavad-gita: abhyaase 'py asamartho 'si, mat-karma-paramo bhava / mad-artham api karmaa.ni kurvan siddhim avaapsyasi // In modern Marathi, the word abhyaasa refers to study. Hence the verse was interpreted as a teacher saying to a student: "Even if you are incapable of study, be dedicated to carrying out some work for me (such as taking the cows to graze? or washing my laundry?). Doing even such tasks for me, you will succeed (= I will give you a passing grade in this class?)" Madhav Deshpande] Reminds me of a 17th c. verse. Pa.tikkAcar(P) was a wandering poet; Once he returned to TiruvArUr where he was trained in Tamil grammar to meet an old classmate, Sadashiva Desikar(D). Children from D's school were plucking fruits, flowers & spinach while reciting intricate prosody verses. P tells his friend, D that "it is easy to spot your house because the kids are teaching the kArikai grammar to bushes in the garden!". kuu.tum capaiyil kavivaa ra.nagka.laik kO.laripOl caa.tum catAciva ca.rkuru vE!mun2n2un2 tantaitan2n2aal paa.tum pulavarka.l aan2Om;in2 .riccemmal pa.t.tiyegkum kaa.tum ce.tiyumen2 n2Otamizk kaarikai ka.rpatuvE? Regards, V. Iyer PS: Desikar eventually became the Pontiff of Darumapuram Saiva Adheenam. Both Pa.tikkAcu and Desikar were students of Vaidhyanatha Naavalar, the author of "ilakka.navi.lakkam" and father of D. Naavalar's ilakka.navi.lakkam was published by T. V. Gopalaiyar via Sarasvathimahal library. Gopalaiyar is the teacher of Danielou, Chevillard, ... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Tue Feb 1 05:31:27 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 00 00:31:27 -0500 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears Message-ID: <161227055641.23782.18368020392763466272.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 1/31/00 6:33:47 PM Central Standard Time, zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE writes: > The issue becomes interesting in view of repeated brahmin- > Virasaiva polemics about whether the Virasaivas have > vedaadhikaara or not. The Virasaivas redefined what brahminhood > means, and this meant that according to the (more) orthodox > brahmins, the Virasaivas cannot have such authority, whereas the > Virasaivas claimed the contrary. Didn't Virazaivism have many vizvakarma-brAhmaNa followers who were anti-brahminical unlike the Tamil zaivism where brahmins and vellALas were amicable? A Salankayana charter has the following contents. "Hereby I, being desirous of increasing the dharma (merit), longevity and strength of myself, as also of increasing the fame, strength and happiness of bAlaka-mahArAjakumAra khaMdapotta, have given this village of piDiha, in accordance with the prescribed rites and formalities pertaining to the agrahAra-rathakAra (class of gift), to the rathakAra-chaAturvaidya (the chaturvedin of the rathakAra class or caste) who is endowed with the capacity of cursing and of conferring boons, and is engaged in meditation and in the study of the vedas ordained (according to rules) for the various gotras and charaNas in accordance with the prescribed rites and formalities pertaining to the agrahAras of the rathakAras..." (p.7) (See "Two Salankayana Charters from Kanukollu" by B. V. Krishna Rao, EI, vol.31, p. 1-10) The anti-brahminical attitude of the vizvakarma brAhmaNas could have been the result of them being deprived of their earlier privileges as the varNa/caste rules became stricter. Although zaGkara and rAmAnuja used the rule of pouring lead in zUdra's ears to support their positions denying zUdra's access to the knowledge of brahman, the reality seems to have been different. A 10th century inscription of Rajaraja I (no. 170 of SII. vol. 13) mentions the recitation of talavakAra-sAmaveda, taittirIya veda and chandoga-sAmaveda before the deity at kuttAlam, Tanjore dt., for which 25 brahmins were appointed. In the temple setting, I doubt if zUdras (veLLALas) could not hear the vedic recitation. Regards S. Palaniappan From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 1 08:53:25 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 00 00:53:25 -0800 Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers Message-ID: <161227055643.23782.513990357358286303.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Venkatraman Iyer wrote: > >Reminds me of a 17th c. verse. Pa.tikkAcar(P) was a wandering poet; >Once he returned to TiruvArUr where he was trained in Tamil grammar >to meet an old classmate, Sadashiva Desikar(D). Children >from D's school were plucking fruits, flowers & spinach while reciting >intricate prosody verses. P tells his friend, D that "it is easy to >spot your house because the kids are teaching the kArikai grammar >to bushes in the garden!". > This sort of imagery seems to recur in Indian poetry. In the Sankaravijaya texts, Sankara identifies Mandana Misra's house as the one where the parrots are debating the theories of svata.h pramANa and parata.h pramANa. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Feb 1 00:29:24 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 00 01:29:24 +0100 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears Message-ID: <161227055636.23782.8645242250111067119.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 31 Jan 00, at 6:07, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > In this connection, I came across a series of documents in the > files of the Peshwa rulers of Maharashtra (Peshwa Daftar, Vol. 43, > pp. 92-94, edited by G.H. Sardesai). Documents 108 and 110 deal > with an interesting case. Doc. 108 is a letter from an official > who caught a Jangam (a non-Brahmin Shaiva priest) performing a > Rudra (Taittiriya YV) recitation during an Abhisheka for a Bania. > This was detected by the local Brahmins and reported to the > official. Both the Jangam and the Bania were jailed, [...] > But then how did the non-Brahmin Jangam learn the Vedic Rudra > recitation? Who taught him? Document # 110 reports the finding > that a Brahmin, Lakshman Bhat Bawle taught the Rudra recitation to > the non-Brahmin Jangam. The Brahmin was fined, was forced to give > up the fees he had received from the Jangam, and was made to > perform a series of penances [...] Could it be that the 'jangama' was a Virasaiva? There are numerous Virasaivas in Maharashtra too (also in the Pune area), and in Karnataka the term 'jangama' was originally used for a wandering Virasaiva mendicant (later it became a term for a heriditary, more- or-less priestly sub-caste). The issue becomes interesting in view of repeated brahmin- Virasaiva polemics about whether the Virasaivas have vedaadhikaara or not. The Virasaivas redefined what brahminhood means, and this meant that according to the (more) orthodox brahmins, the Virasaivas cannot have such authority, whereas the Virasaivas claimed the contrary. These arguments have also led to a few cases of litigation, esp. in the Karnataka-Maharashtra border area. The Rudra recitation was brought forward as a point of dispute in one case early in the previous century, about which a short book (in Kannada) was written some 30 years ago. RZ -------------------------- Charumati S. Zydenbos de Genestetlaan 6 NL-5615 EH Eindhoven the Netherlands tel. (+31-40-) 211-7804 e-mail c.s.zydenbos at iae.nl From markphillipsuts at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 1 21:04:06 2000 From: markphillipsuts at YAHOO.COM (Mark Phillips) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 08:04:06 +1100 Subject: South Indian marmam Message-ID: <161227055645.23782.10048911062650196589.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a copy of a thesis by M. Manickavasagam, prepared for the University of Madras in 1993. The title is "The Art Of Varmam - A Historical Study". The author identifies the twelve padu marmam and assigns eight thodu marmam to each of the twelve, giving a total of ninety six thodu marmam. As an example, the padu marma Thilartha Kalam (Sthapani) is a junction for: Kondakolli Seerumkolli, Pala, Sundu, Sunguthiri, Kannadi, Ottu, Saruthi. Manickavasagam claims that each padu marmam acts as a junction for eight thodu marmam and lists Odivu Murivu Sara Sutram by Agastya as a primary reference source. Od.Mu., Verses 567 to 577 are claimed to contain information about "...the fifty six vital points which are used (out of the 108 varma points) for restoring the patient by massaging and stimulating the meridian lines, curing the patient from disease. These are called Adangal (Reviving).". It is also speculated that lines around figures seated in yoga posture, portrayed in seals unearthed at Harappa, are a type of meridian marking. Can anyone suggest how I may obtain a copy of an English translation of Od.Mu., in particular, the above mentioned verses. Can anyone help me to place a date on Agustya? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Wed Feb 2 04:39:31 2000 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 09:39:31 +0500 Subject: JOB POSTING (EFEO) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055648.23782.2663791729934807359.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, the following text is the initial part of a job opportunity announcement that appeared on January 23rd in the JOURNAL OFFICIEL DE LA REPUBLIQUE FRANCAISE (page 1248) (I hope there are no typing mistakes, please check the original text) -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (EFEO-Pondicherry) [ jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr ] ********************************************** Avis de vacance d'emplois de chercheur contractuel ? l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ? compter du 1er septembre 2000 ********************************* L'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (EFEO) est un ?tablissement public ? caract?re scientifique, culturel et professionnel sous tutelle du ministre de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie. L'Ecole a pour mission la recherche et la formation ? la recherche, notamment par le travail sur le terrain dans toutes les disciplines qui se rapportent aux civilisations de l'Asie, principalement de la Chine, du Japon, de la Haute-Asie, de l'Asie du Sud-Est et de la p?ninsule indienne. 12 postes de chercheurs contractuels seront vacants ? l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient au 1er septembre 2000 avec les sp?cialit?s suivantes : - monde chinois : 3 postes - Japon-Cor?e : 3 postes - Monde indien : 2 postes - Asie du Sud-Est : 4 postes Les candidats doivent avoir obtenu le doctorat d'Etat, ou le dipl?me de l'Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, ou le doctorat de troisi?me cycle, ou avoir ? leur actif une oeuvre scientifique importante. Leur th?se ou leurs travaux doivent avoir port? sur un sujet relevant du domain des recherches de l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (d?cret N? 76-186 du 20 f?vrier 1976). La dur?e du contrat est de trois ans, renouvelable. Si l'agent retenu est fonctionnaire titulaire, la r?gularisation administrative se fera par d?tachement sur le poste de chercheur contractuel de l'EFEO. Le dossier de candidature devra ?tre envoy? au minist?re de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie dans un d?lai de trente jours, ? compter de la date de publication du pr?sent avis au Journal officiel de la R?publique fran?aise (le cachet de la poste faisant foi) : .............................................................. ....... [see the full text on page 1248 ...................... ....... in the JOURNAL OFFICIEL dated 2000 january 23rd ] ... .............................................................. From naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 2 18:29:07 2000 From: naga_ganesan at HOTMAIL.COM (N. Ganesan) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 10:29:07 -0800 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India Message-ID: <161227055659.23782.14052484773538408074.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yashwant Malaiya wrote: >I have, in my collection, a book giving extensive >data about a certain trading community, published >around 1915. Its editor complains about a major social >problem. A lot of young men remain unmarried because >they can not afford to pay the bride price. Rich >older men can get brides very easily. If the editor >were alive today, he would be happy to see that the >problem has ceased to exist. Interesting. What is the caste discussed in the 1915 book? Among tamil castes also, the "toTuvilai" (`bride-price'/parisam) paid to girls' families has decreased or stopped; Reversely, dowry is getting established; previously dowry was only with Chettiars. Regards, N. Ganesan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Wed Feb 2 17:42:06 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 10:42:06 -0700 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India In-Reply-To: <38987322.28548F5D@shore.net> Message-ID: <161227055657.23782.137718722337851233.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hearing about Swami Agnivesh, term "publicity seeker" comes to mind first before "activist". I hope he is actually making a difference. His various activities are located very close to Delhi, making it convenient for the Delhi based reporters (most educated in English medium schools) to cover them. Their reports mesh nicely with some popular (or popularized) perceptions about India in the west, thus they get good exposure outside of India. For many decades we have seen discussions against dowry. There have been dramas, novels, movies, laws etc. Yet dowry is getting more common spreading to communities where it was unheard of a few decades ago. I have, in my collection, a book giving extensive data about a certain trading community, published around 1915. Its editor complains about a major social problem. A lot of young men remain unmarried because they can not afford to pay the bride price. Rich older men can get brides very easily. If the editor were alive today, he would be happy to see that the problem has ceased to exist. Yashwant --- FIFTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON DOWRY, BRIDE-BURNING AND SON-PREFERENCE IN INDIA Sponsored jointly by Arya Samaj of India, New Delhi, India, ... From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 2 10:43:00 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 10:43:00 +0000 Subject: job posting (fwd) Message-ID: <161227055650.23782.17119123229190644510.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- THE UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA Asa and Kashmir Johal Chair in India Research Applications are invited for a newly-endowed Chair in India Research. The appointment, beginning July 1, 2000, will be made jointly by the Institute of Asian Research and the Department of Anthropology and Sociology, and the successful applicant will contribute equally to both units. The joint appointment underscores our interest in and commitment to interdisciplinary studies. It is expected that the appointment will be at the Associate Professor level, but for an exceptional candidate it may be at a higher rank. The successful applicant will have a Ph.D., a substantial publication record, an ongoing program of research and publication, demonstrated excellence in undergraduate and graduate teaching and supervision in social/cultural anthropology. She or he should have conducted ethnographic research in India and have full competence in at least one of the languages of India apart from English. The university is looking for a dynamic individual who will contribute in original and substantive ways to the intellectual growth of South Asia Studies. The Institute of Asian Research (IAR) is the focal point at UBC for research on contemporary issues in Asia, where research on India is carried out through its Centre for India and South Asia Research (CISAR). CISAR is one of five regional Research Centres within IAR. The Centre was established to promote research on a wide variety of topics dealing with India and South Asia and its relationship to the world community. CISAR presents regular seminar series and conferences. In addition, the Centre is engaged in a variety of activities which encourages individual and organizational interactions between India, South Asia and Canada. In accordance with Canadian immigration requirements, priority will be given to Canadian citizens and permanent residents. The University of British Columbia hires on the basis of merit and is committed to employment equity. All qualified persons are encouraged to apply. Inquiries and applications, including names and addresses of three referees, curriculum vitae, sample research materials and a summary of current and future research interests should be sent by February 15, 2000 to: Patti Berg, Secretary to the Appointment Committee Dept. of Anthropology & Sociology The University of British Columbia 6303 N.W. Marine Dr. Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 2 10:54:56 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 10:54:56 +0000 Subject: Job Opportunity (EFEO) Message-ID: <161227055653.23782.2378469476589083491.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:02:30 +0500 From: Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD Subject: Job Opportunity (EFEO) [[FULL TEXT]] *********************** Avis de vacance d'emplois de chercheur contractuel ? l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient ? compter du 1er septembre 2000 [parue au journal officiel de la R?publique Fran?aise le 23 janvier 2000 (page 1248)] ********************************* L'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (EFEO) est un ?tablissement public ? caract?re scientifique, culturel et professionnel sous tutelle du ministre de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie. L'Ecole a pour mission la recherche et la formation ? la recherche, notamment par le travail sur le terrain dans toutes les disciplines qui se rapportent aux civilisations de l'Asie, principalement de la Chine, du Japon, de la Haute-Asie, de l'Asie du Sud-Est et de la p?ninsule indienne. 12 postes de chercheurs contractuels seront vacants ? l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient au 1er septembre 2000 avec les sp?cialit?s suivantes : - monde chinois : 3 postes - Japon-Cor?e : 3 postes - Monde indien : 2 postes - Asie du Sud-Est : 4 postes Les candidats doivent avoir obtenu le doctorat d'Etat, ou le dipl?me de l'Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, ou le doctorat de troisi?me cycle, ou avoir ? leur actif une oeuvre scientifique importante. Leur th?se ou leurs travaux doivent avoir port? sur un sujet relevant du domain des recherches de l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient (d?cret N? 76-186 du 20 f?vrier 1976). La dur?e du contrat est de trois ans, renouvelable. Si l'agent retenu est fonctionnaire titulaire, la r?gularisation administrative se fera par d?tachement sur le poste de chercheur contractuel de l'EFEO. Le dossier de candidature devra ?tre envoy? au minist?re de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie dans un d?lai de trente jours, ? compter de la date de publication du pr?sent avis au Journal officiel de la R?publique fran?aise (le cachet de la poste faisant foi) : 1. sous pli recommand? au minist?re de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie (direction des personnels enseignants, sous-direction des personnels enseignants du sup?rieur, bureau DPE.. D..), 61-65, rue Dutot, 75732 Paris Cedex 15. Le dossier sera ainsi compos? : a) Une demande d'admission (cf. mod?le annex?) ; b) Un curriculum vitae comportant notamment l'indication des ?tudes poursuivies, des dipl?mes obtenus, des publications ou travaux r?alis?s, le d?roulement de carri?re et le programme d?taill? des ?tudes projet?es ; c) Lorsque le candidat indique qu'il a d?pos? un sujet de th?se, un certificat de l'universit? int?ress?e et le nom du directeur de th?se ; d) Pour les fonctionnaires : * Une copie de leur dernier arr?t? d'avancement ; * Un certificat administratif d?livr? par leur autorit? hi?rarchique relatif ? leur situation actuelle ; e) Pour les non-fonctionnaire : * Une fiche d'?tat-civil et de nationalit? ; * Un extrait de casier judiciaire ; * Un certificat m?dical constatant que le candidat n'est atteint d'aucune maladie ou infirmit? le mettant dans l'impossibilit? d'occuper la place demand?e ; f) Pour les candidats mari?s : une fiche familiale d'?tat civil ; g) Une copie certifi?e conforme des dipl?mes obtenus ; h) Pour les candidats masculins, une copie certifi?e conforme d'un document attestant qu'ils sont d?gag?s des obligations militaires (carte du service national ou premi?res pages du livret militaire) ; i) Sur une feuille recto-verso, le chercheur indiquera, d'un c?t?, un curriculum succint avec ses dipl?mes et ses principales publications. De l'autre, il formulera de la mani?re la plus claire son programme de recherche. Celui-ci devra s'ins?rer parmi les programmes d?velopp?s ? l'Ecole. 2. Une copie du dossier sera ?galement adress?e au Directeur de l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient, 22 Avenue du Pr?sident-Wilson, 75116 PARIS, ? laquelle seront jointes les principales publications du candidat. Nota. - Les dossiers envoy?s hors d?lai seront retourn?s aux candidats. ANNEXE DEMANDE D'ADMISSION EN QUALITE DE MEMBRE CHERCHEUR CONTRACTUEL DE L'ECOLE FRANCAISE D'EXTREME-ORIENT A COMPTER DU 1er SEPTEMBRE 2000-02-01 Nom (en caract?res d'imprimerie) : ........... Pr?nom : ................. N?(e) le : ................ Situation familiale : c?libataire, mari?(e), divorc?(e), veuf(ve). Situation administrative (pour les fonctionnaires) : ............. Adresse : ............... T?l?phone : * professionnel : ............. * Domicile : ................. Situation militaire : ............ Titres universitaires (?tudes pouruivies, dipl?mes obtenus) (*) : ................ Publications ou travaux r?alis?s : .............. Programme d?taill? des ?tudes projet?es : ........... (Eventuellement) sujet de th?se : ............ Nom du directeur de th?se : ........... Je soussign?, ..........., sollicite mon admission ? l'Ecole Fran?aise d'Extr?me-Orient en qualit? de chercheur contractuel, dans la sp?cialit? suivante (barrer les mentions inutiles) : * Monde chinois ; * Japon-Cor?e ; * Monde indien ; * Asie du Sud-Est. Si ma candidature est retenue, je m'engage ? accepter la r?sidence dans un pays de l'aire culturelle sur laquelle portent les recherches de l'EFEO, sur d?cision de son directeur. Fait ? ......................, le ............................ Signature (*) Indiquer les ann?es d'obtention des dipl?mes ou de r?ussite aux concours From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 2 20:13:35 2000 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 12:13:35 -0800 Subject: Narada Message-ID: <161227055670.23782.16591306888434998677.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Any etymologies, fanciful or otherwise, for nArada, the RSi? Jan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 2 20:38:03 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 12:38:03 -0800 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears Message-ID: <161227055663.23782.4633392813488390094.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >Didn't Virazaivism have many vizvakarma-brAhmaNa followers who were >anti-brahminical unlike the Tamil zaivism where brahmins and vellALas were >amicable? The brAhmaNas associated with vIrazaivism are called ArAdhyas, mostly found in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. The vizvakarmas don't seem particularly vIrazaiva in character. You might want to see http://www2.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/vedas-sridhar.html, for some vizvakarma lore. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From garzilli at SHORE.NET Wed Feb 2 18:10:42 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 13:10:42 -0500 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India Message-ID: <161227055655.23782.5662666981477005740.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> FIFTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON DOWRY, BRIDE-BURNING AND SON-PREFERENCE IN INDIA Sponsored jointly by Arya Samaj of India, New Delhi, India, Asiatica Association Bandhua Mukti Morcha (BMM), New Delhi, India, Delhi University, New Delhi, India, Durban University, Durban, South Africa, Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar, India, Harvard University, U.S.A., Kurukshetra University, Kurukshetra, India, Perugia University, Italy, Punjab University, Chandigarh, India, SOAS, University of London, UK, Tagore Research Institute, Calcutta, India, Women's Action Research & Legal Action for Women (WARLAW), New Delhi, India, the International Society Against Dowry & Bride-Burning in India, Inc.(ISADABBI) announces the FIFTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON DOWRY, BRIDE-BURNING AND SON-PREFERENCE IN INDIA WHEN: January 27, 28, 29 and 30, 2001 WHERE: India International Centre, 40 Max Mueller Marg, Lodhi Estate, New Delhi, India. WEB: http://www.asiatica.org/dowryconf.thp3 The purpose of the Conference will be to research into the evils of dowry, atrocities on women, bride-burning and son-preference in India and people of Indian origin abroad, recommend plans & programs to eradicate these inhuman practices, and present a "Work-Plan" to the Government of India for implementation of the said plans & programs. Articles and research papers are solicited from scholars, professionals, social workers and other interested people by *June 30, 2000*, which should be mailed to: Dr. Werner F. Menski, Ph.D. School Of Oriental & African Studies (SOAS), University of London, Russell Square, London WC 1 H 0XG, UK Internet users may please upload their papers/articles to "Dr W. F. Menski" ISADABBI will have the copyright on these articles/research papers which may be published in a "Souvenir of the Fifth International Conference on Dowry, Bride-Burning and Son-Preference", or in the proposed "Work-Plan", and/or in other publications of ISADABBI on any later date. Articles and research papers may be on any topic related to the purpose of the Conference stated above. It may be noted that, since we are trying to develop a practical plan and program to eradicate the evil practices of dowry, atrocities on women, bride-burning & son-preference in India and people of Indian origin abroad, articles and papers with a stronger scope of implementation will have preference in the "Work-Plan". As for a general agenda of the Conference, the first two days (January 27 & 28, 2001) will be utilized for presentation of papers and discussions. On the third day (January 29), resolutions will be adopted and a "Work-Plan", generated by earlier discussions, will be submitted to the Prime Minister or his representative. The last day of the Conference, January 30, will be devoted to pay homage to Mahatma Gandhi, Subhas Chandra Bose and other martyrs who dedicated everything for India's independence. The agenda may slightly be modified to accommodate unforeseen situations. For any other details, please contact: Dr. Werner F. Menski, Ph.D. SOAS, University of London, Russell Square, London WC 1 H 0XG, UK. Telephone : 44-171-323-6339 email: Swami Agnivesh BMM, 7 Jantar Mantar Road, New Delhi, India. Telephone: 91-11-336-6765 email: Himendra Thakur ISADABBI, P.O. Box 8766, Salem, MA-01971, USA. Telephone: USA-978-462-6159 email: Tarek Wani wrote: >A recent New York Times story > >http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/110999sci-first-americans.html > >says that the Kennewick man (7000 to 9300 years old) found in the US is of >Indian (South Asian) stock. The implication of this discovery is The description of the Kennewick man is based mainly on phenotype as of now. I believe the genetic testing has not yet been done, because of the litigation caused by Native American groups claiming the body for reburial. As a scientist, I would say it is too early to comment. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From tarekwani at USA.COM Wed Feb 2 21:12:59 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 16:12:59 -0500 Subject: Edmund Leach on Indology Message-ID: <161227055665.23782.35572258759528190.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The distinguished British anthropologist Edmund Leach used harsh language to characterize Indology. In particular, he thought there existed conscious or unconscious racism amongst many Indologists. Here is a source which summarizes Leach's views: http://www.sulekha.com/articles/skak_indology.html What do other Indologists think about Leach's views? -Tarek Wani --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From tarekwani at USA.COM Wed Feb 2 21:19:23 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 16:19:23 -0500 Subject: Kennewick man and Indians Message-ID: <161227055667.23782.8554141782780372814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A recent New York Times story http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/110999sci-first-americans.html says that the Kennewick man (7000 to 9300 years old) found in the US is of Indian (South Asian) stock. The implication of this discovery is that the Indian stock was already `formed' at least 7000-9300 years ago. This supports the mitochondrial DNA findings that the Indians and the Europeans diverged prior to 9000 BC-- results published in the London journal New Biology and already discussed in INDOLOGY. I would appreciate comments on this issue. -Tarek --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Wed Feb 2 15:39:09 2000 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 16:39:09 +0100 Subject: Special Characters & Unicode In-Reply-To: <1FBF90B4762@hum.au.dk> Message-ID: <161227045872.23782.11474227479627023735.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor! Some of the following articles and books has already been mentioned. Anyway, I give you the following list(since I am working with hindu-time as well, please tell me if you know about publications not mentioned in the replies): Balslev, Anindita Niyogi A study of time in Indian philosophy, Wiesbaden: O. Harrassowitz 1983. "Cosmology and Hindu Thought", Zygon, vol. 25, no. 1. Mars 1990. ?Time and the Hindu Experience? In Religion and time, Studies in the history of religions; 54. Edited by Anindita Niyogi Balslev and Jitendra Nath Mohanty, 163-181. Leiden 1993. B?umer, Bettina, "Sun, Consciousness and Time: The way of Time and the Timelessness in Kashmir Shaivism", In Concepts of Time; Ancient and Modern, Edited by Kapila Vatsyayan, 73-77, New Delhi 1996. Dragonetti, Carmen/ "Anaditva or beginninglessness in Indian Tola, Fernando Philosophy", Annales of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 61(1980):1-20. Best Regards Jon. From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Wed Feb 2 19:44:16 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 20:44:16 +0100 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears In-Reply-To: <30.aa3226.25c7c9af@aol.com> Message-ID: <161227055661.23782.8376308441614719537.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 1 Feb 00, at 0:31, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > In a message dated 1/31/00 6:33:47 PM Central Standard Time, > zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE writes: > > > The issue becomes interesting in view of repeated brahmin- > > Virasaiva polemics about whether the Virasaivas have > > vedaadhikaara or not. The Virasaivas redefined what brahminhood > > means, and this meant that according to the (more) orthodox > > brahmins, the Virasaivas cannot have such authority, whereas the > > Virasaivas claimed the contrary. > > Didn't Virazaivism have many vizvakarma-brAhmaNa followers who were > anti-brahminical unlike the Tamil zaivism where brahmins and vellALas were > amicable? Not that I know of. The Viswakarmas are another interesting group of unclear position in the caste system: while they are thought of plainly as a collective of five groups of craftsmen by other communities, they claim brahmin status for themselves and at times call themselves "Viswakarmabrahmana's" or "Viswabrahmana's". But I knew a Viswakarma lady in Mysore who, when my wife enquired about her ancestral village and the kinds of people who lived there, answered that besides themselves there were gowdas, untouchables, brahmins and ayyangars -- i.e., she considered neither her own group nor ayyangars brahmins. In any case the Viswakarmas are ritually independent of ('other') brahmins. RZ From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Thu Feb 3 02:31:59 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 00 21:31:59 -0500 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears Message-ID: <161227055674.23782.16772603610813680679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/2/00 1:39:13 PM Central Standard Time, zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE writes: > On 1 Feb 00, at 0:31, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > > > Didn't Virazaivism have many vizvakarma-brAhmaNa followers who were > > anti-brahminical unlike the Tamil zaivism where brahmins and vellALas were > > amicable? > > Not that I know of. The Viswakarmas are another interesting group > of unclear position in the caste system: while they are thought of > plainly as a collective of five groups of craftsmen by other > communities, they claim brahmin status for themselves and at > times call themselves "Viswakarmabrahmana's" or > "Viswabrahmana's". In a message dated 2/2/00 2:39:00 PM Central Standard Time, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > The brAhmaNas associated with vIrazaivism are called ArAdhyas, mostly found > in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. > > The vizvakarmas don't seem particularly vIrazaiva in character. In the book, "ziva's warriors: the basava purANa of pAlkuriki somanAtha", Velcheru Narayana Rao writes, "Among the craftsman, kamsAlis (goldsmiths), kammaris (blacksmiths), vaDraGgis (carpenters)-castes that are usually included among the pAJcAlas (five artisan castes)-and sAles (weavers) in particular felt themselves in conflict with brahmin claims to superiority, for they themselves had aspirations to priestly status. The goldsmiths even called themselves vizvabrAhmaNas, the universal brahmins. The artisan castes have historically competed with brahmins in that jealously guarded skill, literacy. Many poets and scholars from the artisan castes have composed poetry and have claimed knowledge of religious texts. Because they were competing with brahmins, these poets and scholars imitated brahminic styles, but were in conflict with the brahmin ideology, often adapting antibrahminic religious doctrines. A large number of vIrazaiva poets emerged from this group, and as evidence of the importance of the artisan castes in medieval Andhra, BP includes a number of stories of bhaktas from these castes." (p.9) At least as far as South India was concerned, initially, the smRti texts seem to reflect a world some brahmins wished for. Social conflicts seemed to have originated when these imaginary worlds were later imposed on a real society which had different operating rules. Regards S. Palaniappan From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Thu Feb 3 16:56:36 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 08:56:36 -0800 Subject: My new book Message-ID: <161227055695.23782.15169826084428782032.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Trying to purchase a copy. What are the contributions/contents? Mandakranta Bose wrote: -------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dear Friends, > My most recent book, a volume of articles by contributors from >India, England, Canada and the USA edited by me has just been published by >Oxford University Press, New York. Its title is: >FACES OF THE FEMININE IN ANCIENT, MEDIEVAL AND MODERN INDIA >Mandakranta Bose >Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research >Institute of Asian Research >University of British Columbia >Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 >mbose at interchange.ubc.ca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR Thu Feb 3 04:57:59 2000 From: jlc at CCR.JUSSIEU.FR (Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 09:57:59 +0500 Subject: [ERRATA to] Job Opportunity (EFEO) Message-ID: <161227055676.23782.9086573913759057814.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues, There was indeed a small typing mistake in the job opportunity announcement that was forwarded to you yesterday (copied from the January 23rd issue of the JOURNAL OFFICIEL DE LA REPUBLIQUE FRANCAISE, page 1248) IT SHOULD HAVE READ: 1. sous pli recommand? au minist?re de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie (direction des personnels enseignants, sous-direction des personnels enseignants du sup?rieur, bureau DPE, D1), 61-65, rue Dutot, 75732 Paris Cedex 15. INSTEAD OF: 1. sous pli recommand? au minist?re de l'?ducation nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie (direction des personnels enseignants, sous-direction des personnels enseignants du sup?rieur, bureau DPE.. D..), 61-65, rue Dutot, 75732 Paris Cedex 15. I apologize for the mistake. -- Jean-Luc CHEVILLARD (EFEO-Pondicherry) [ jlc at ccr.jussieu.fr ] From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Thu Feb 3 15:27:05 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 10:27:05 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: liverpool.ac.ukpko1: host not found) Message-ID: <161227055693.23782.3819294481060682155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > >The following event announcement is being posted to your mailing >list or listserv from the Events Calendar section of SARAI. Please >contact event organizers directly for any further information. > >David Magier >http://www.columbia.edu/cu/libraries/indiv/area/sarai > >======================================================================== > >Maharajas, Women, & Medicine: >Medical Pluralism in the Indian Princely States > >An exhibition from the private collection of Kenneth Robbins, >Potomac, Maryland -- a connoisseur of Indian medical history and culture > >March 5-10, 2000 (noon to 5 p.m. daily) >Chatham College Woodland Gallery >Pittsburgh, PA > >Opening Reception on Sunday, March 5 at 5:00pm in the art gallery foyer > > > >Public lecture by Dr. Kenneth Robbins > >Moderated by Prof. John Laird, Chatham's Physician's Assistant >Studies Program, >who studies studied at the Government College of Ayurvedic Medicine >in Mysore, India. > >Monday, March 6 at noon >in the Edward Danforth Eddy Theater > >Free and open to the public > >Presented by the Chatham College Global Focus Year of South Asia From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Thu Feb 3 17:57:50 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 10:57:50 -0700 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India In-Reply-To: <20000202182907.47346.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227055700.23782.16173412608234488984.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding N. Ganesan's question: The book is "Parvar Directory" (in Hindi) published in 1924 Published by Singhai Pannalal Raes edited by Pandit Tulsiram. The book is basically an internal detailed census report of the community with a listing for each village. Among other things, it mentions male literacy 71% and female literacy about 10% (including children). For comparison, adult literacy in the community today must be 100%. Parvar is one of the "84" (so it is said) Jain communities. (jnatis or castes). In the inscriptions it is called Paurapatta or Purvada. It is a trading community . Some of you know that the mother of Mahendra, son of Maurya Ashoka, was the daughter of a merchant of Vidisha. The vihara at Sanchi is only a couple of hours from Vidisha by bullock-cart. It is believed by some that the Paravars represent the same merchant community. Back to "bride burnings", I think they do occur. Has anyone studied how many of the reported burnings are actually suicides? The reporters are quick and eager to report the sensational news, but they never pursue the details. Most of you must have heard about the Ambati family that was arrested in India on dowry charges (one son had an MD at age 16). Practically none of the reorters have reported on the outcome of the case. If anyone is researching this subject using newspaper reports only, they are looking at a very small part of the facts. Yashwant -------response to: N. Ganesan Asked: Interesting. What is the caste discussed in the 1915 book? Among tamil castes also, the "toTuvilai" (`bride-price'/parisam) paid to girls' families has decreased or stopped; Reversely, dowry is getting established; previously dowry was only with Chettiars. From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Thu Feb 3 05:35:06 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 11:05:06 +0530 Subject: Prof. K.P.Jog passes away Message-ID: <161227055678.23782.16579701705894110145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Prof. Keshav Pandurang Jog, a noted scholar of Sanskrit, passed away on 24th January, 2000 in Mumbai. He was 76. Prof. K. P. Jog was born on 26th March 1925 at Pune. He studied at Elphinstone College (Mumbai) under Prof. R. P. Kangle and did his Ph. D. in Vedic studies under Prof. H. D. Velankar at Bombay University (1965), while teaching Sanskrit and Prakrit at the undergraduate and postgraduate levels in Khalsa College (1950-54), Kirti College (1954-61) and Somaiya College (1961-65), all in Mubmai. Thereafter he joined Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Poona and carried on his teaching and research activities for fifteen years, first as Research Associate and then Reader (1965-80). He was appointed Professor of Sanskrit, Deccan College (1980-83), Joint General Editor (1983-85) and General Editor (1985-87), Sanskrit Dictionary Project of Deccan College, Pune. He also taught Sanskrit as a contributory teacher for several years at Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapeeth, Pune. After his retirement from the Deccan College, He was appointed Honorary Director, P. V. Kane Research Institute , Asiatic Society of Bombay ( 1990-92). He was Director of the Foundation of Cultural Courses of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Mumbai. He was honoured by the University Grants Commission, New Delhi, as National Lecturer (1984-85). Prof. Jog was known for his research in various fields of specialization, viz. Veda, Poetics, Classical Sanskrit, Prakrit, Vedaanta Philosophy etc. Besides he had studied deeply Marathi and English literature. He edited Ala.nkaarama~jarii of Trimallabha.t.ta ( JASB Vols. 41-42, Bombay, 1966-67), Vimalodayamaalaa, a commentary on the Aa;svalaayana G.rhyasuutra by Jayantabha.t.ta (CASS Publication, Class C No. 8, Poona, 1974) and Ana.ngam.ngalabhaa.na of Sundara Kavi Naa.tyam, Dr. Harisinha Gaur University, Sagar (in press). He translated in collaboration with his pupil Dr. Shoun Hino Sure;svara's Vaartikas in 12 Volumes out of which 10 have been published by Motialal Banarsidass, Delhi and the remaining ones will be published in the near future. There are 11 students who worked under his guidance and were awarded Ph. D. degrees. Besides, he spare no pains to offer his valuable guidance to a number of students (including myself) working under different teachers, go through the drafts of their research articles and Ph. D. theses and make valuable corrections and suggestions. He taught the students how to think and put their thoughts in proper words. He was an excellent friend for his colleagues as well as his students. A Felicitation Volume in his honour was recently released in at the function held in Pune. That was the last occasion for many of his students and friends to meet him.( Wisdom in Indian Tradition, Prof. K. P. Jog Fel. Vol., ed. by Shoun Hino and Lalita Deodhar, Pratibha Prakashan, Delhi, 1999). A condolence meeting to pay respectful homage to the late Prof. Jog was organized by Till Maharashtra Vidyapeeth, Pune on 2nd February, 2000 in which representatves of various Institutes in Pune, friends and students of Prof. Jog participated. // na khalu sa uparato yasya vallabho janas smarati // Shrikant Bahulkar -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: bahulkar.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 378 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Feb 3 16:15:38 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 11:15:38 -0500 Subject: 5th Intnl. Conf. on Dowry, Bride Burning etc. Message-ID: <161227055681.23782.3268022918961353796.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The correct URL of the 5th International Conference on Dowry, Bride-burning and Son-Preference in India is: http://www.asiatica.org/dowryconf.php3 For further details please ask: Himendra Thakur ISADABBI, P.O. Box 8766, Salem, MA-01971, USA. Telephone: USA-978-462-6159 email: hthakur at shore.net Thanks, EG -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From garzilli at SHORE.NET Thu Feb 3 16:23:02 2000 From: garzilli at SHORE.NET (Enrica Garzilli) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 11:23:02 -0500 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India Message-ID: <161227055683.23782.11756751878273560136.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > problem. A lot of young men remain unmarried because > they can not afford to pay the bride price. Rich > older men can get brides very easily. If the editor > were alive today, he would be happy to see that the > problem has ceased to exist. > > Yashwant I hope you are making just a bad joke. However, it is *not* appreciated. Enrica -- Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) Editor-in-Chief, Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies http://www.asiatica.org/ ***************************************************************** From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Feb 3 19:40:54 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 11:40:54 -0800 Subject: Narada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055706.23782.11760285119356104338.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The RAmAyaNa commentator GovindarAja in his RAmAyaNabhUSaNa on VAlmIki RAmAyaNa offers no fewer than three (fanciful or otherwise) etymologies for the name NArada. 1. narasya saMbandhi nAram "narAc ceti vaktavyam" ityaN. ajJAnam ity arthaH. tad dyati khaNDayatIti nAradaH. do avakhaNDane ity asmAd dhAtoH. "Adeca upadeze 'ziti" ityAtve sati "Ato 'nupasarge kaH" iti kapratyayaH ajJAnanivartaka ityarthaH. ( Go. then quotes a vs. from the N?radIya to the effect that N. does, in fact, destroy the darkness born of ignorance for men.) 2. yad vA nAraM jJAnaM . tad dadAtIti nAradaH. 3. yad vA narati sadgatiM prApayatIti naraH paramAtmA. nR naya ity asmAd dhAtoH pacAdyac. ( Go.then quotes a vs. from the BhArata substantiating the equation of nara and paramAtman and continues) sa eva nAras taM dadAty upadizatIti nAradas tam... So we see that (acc. to Go.) far from rejecting or opposing the world, NAradamuni is really rather a useful chap to have around, destroying ignorance, giving knowledge and setting our feet on the path of the virtuous etc. Clearly V?lm?ki (and his commentator) is not interested in foregrounding N's reputation as kalahapriyaH. >On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > >> Any etymologies, fanciful or otherwise, for nArada, >> the RSi? > >I remember that Parbu Bhopo, the Pabuji bard with whom I worked in the 70s >and 80s, explained the name (with reference to Narada's notoriously >quarrelsome nature) as meaning "jo duniyAM ko *radd* kartA hai" -- he who >rejects/opposes the world. > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html Dr. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Professor of Sanskrit and Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Thu Feb 3 10:43:18 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 11:43:18 +0100 Subject: violence denied: book publication Message-ID: <161227055685.23782.2037051305499193165.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Last year the following book was published: Title: Violence denied: violence, non-violence and the rationalization of violence in South-Asian cultural history. Edited by: Jan E.M. Houben and K.R. van Kooij Contributions: Henk W. Bodewitz: Hindu ahimsaa and its roots. Lambert L. Schmithausen: Aspects of the Buddhist attitude towards war. Danielle Feller: Ranayajna: the Mahabharata war as a sacrifice. Jan E.M. Houben: To kill or not to kill the sacrificial animal (yajna-pasu)? arguments and perspectives in Brahminical ethical philosophy. Robert J. Zydenbos: Jainism as the religion of non-violence. Roy E. Jordaan & Robert Wessing: Construction sacrifice in India, "seen from the east". Karel R. van Kooij: Iconography of the battlefield: the case of Chinnamastaa. Pieter C. Verhagen: Expressions of violence in Buddhist Tantric mantras. Jos Gommans: The embarrassment of political violence in Europe and South Asia, c. 1100-1800. Victor A. van Bijlert: Nationalism and violence in colonial India: 1880-1910. Theo Damsteegt: Violent heroines: Ajneya and violence. Price ca. 95 euro/115 US$. More information at: http://www.brill.nl/catalogue/productinfo.asp?product=8769 Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Thu Feb 3 19:46:23 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 11:46:23 -0800 Subject: Narada P. S In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055708.23782.11695685920667559153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sorry, I failed to note that the reference to GovindarAja is to his comments on V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a 1.1.1. >On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > >> Any etymologies, fanciful or otherwise, for nArada, >> the RSi? > >I remember that Parbu Bhopo, the Pabuji bard with whom I worked in the 70s >and 80s, explained the name (with reference to Narada's notoriously >quarrelsome nature) as meaning "jo duniyAM ko *radd* kartA hai" -- he who >rejects/opposes the world. > >John Smith > >-- >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 >Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html Dr. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Professor of Sanskrit and Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Feb 3 17:28:54 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 12:28:54 -0500 Subject: Summer SANSKRIT @ Harvard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055704.23782.10680318949425118205.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SUMMER SANSKRIT at HARVARD. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Just as in the past 10 years, we are offering an Introductory Sanskrit course this Summer. Those interested in more advanced classes may take it at the U. of Chicago (Lawrence Mccrea ). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- SANS S-101 Elementary Sanskrit (8 units) Monday-Thursday 3:30 - 6 p.m. June 26 - August 18; exam period Aug. 14-18 Instructor: Michael Witzel This course, equivalent to two semesters of course work, will enable students to acquire the basic reading skills in Sanskrit. Stress will be placed on learning the Devanagari script, basic grammar and essential vocabulary. Emphasis will also be given to correct translation of passages from simple narrative literature to the epics. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Fees: Application fee (non-refundable) $35 Tuition (credit or non-credit): 8 unit course: $ 3,400 Health insurance $95 (required if not covered by an American carrier) On-campus housing (if desired): room and board, eight week session: $ 2,260 plus Housing deposit $ 640 Registration by mail, fax (credit card only, with full tuition and fees) through June 7. Downloadable forms at the web site: http://www.dce.harvard.edu/summer/default.html Late registration June 7 - June 28 ($50 late fee). Catalogues/Information from Harvard Summer School, 51 Brattle Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone 617- 495 4024 On-line catalogue: ================= http://www.dce.harvard.edu/summer/default.html (includes general information, downloadable forms etc.) This Sanskrit course: http://www.dce.harvard.edu/summer/2000/courses/sans.html gopher.harvard.edu Telnet: vine.harvard.edu (at the login type: courses and RETURN) For assistance call 617 - 496 2001 (Monday-Friday 9am-5pm) =========================================================================== Michael Witzel witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wales Professor of Sanskrit www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Ave. Cambridge MA 02138, USA phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571 --------------------------- From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 3 12:41:30 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 12:41:30 +0000 Subject: Edmund Leach on Indology In-Reply-To: <0002021612594U.09015@weba2.iname.net> Message-ID: <161227055688.23782.17457079945986991820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The essay pointed to by the cited URL is in fact by Subash Kak, and has been on the net for a long time. It cites Leach, true, as part of a tirade against racism in scholarship, and against an AIT. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From jds10 at CAM.AC.UK Thu Feb 3 12:43:51 2000 From: jds10 at CAM.AC.UK (John Smith) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 12:43:51 +0000 Subject: Narada In-Reply-To: <20000202201335.26181.qmail@web1404.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227055690.23782.13645241908852318980.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > Any etymologies, fanciful or otherwise, for nArada, > the RSi? I remember that Parbu Bhopo, the Pabuji bard with whom I worked in the 70s and 80s, explained the name (with reference to Narada's notoriously quarrelsome nature) as meaning "jo duniyAM ko *radd* kartA hai" -- he who rejects/opposes the world. John Smith -- Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 (Switchboard 01223 335106) Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 Cambridge CB3 9DA * http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html From tarekwani at USA.COM Thu Feb 3 18:48:23 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 13:48:23 -0500 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India Message-ID: <161227055702.23782.5747267569827795680.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding N. Ganesan's question and Y. Malaiya's comments: It is instructive to look at the figures for spousal (mostly wife) murders in a comparative fashion: US. Roughly 5,000 for a population of less than 300 million Russia. About 20,000 (according to Newsweek) for a population of about 150 million India. Roughly 5,000 for a population of 1,000 million The details (rage, insurance fraud --which works like dowry here-- for murder; and different factors for suicide) will vary from region to region. -TW --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From tawast at ST1798.SPB.EDU Thu Feb 3 12:08:36 2000 From: tawast at ST1798.SPB.EDU (Sergey S.Tawaststjerna) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 15:08:36 +0300 Subject: AgneyAstrAdikam Message-ID: <161227055687.23782.7312281191365552063.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear colleagues! In Raghuvamza (3.31) Kalidasa wrote that Rama learnt the science of missiles with their incantations from his father (azikSatAstraM pitureva mantravat). Mallinatha explains 'mantravat' as 'samantrakam astram AgneyAdikam'. Does it mean that there were specific mantras for kshatriyas, or does he mean some Vedic mantras? Were these mantras used before or during the battle? Of what kind were these mantras (may be curse or abuse towards enemies)? Are there any surviving texts? Monier-Williams dictionary gives 'AgneyAstra' as a tantric formula (?). There is an interesting parallel in Russian: the battle-field is also called as a field of swearing, a field of bad words (pole brani). In old times these "bad words" were used only in two cases: during some rituals for frightening demons and during battles for frightening enemies. Thank you in advance Sergei Tawaststjerna From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Feb 3 23:43:39 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 15:43:39 -0800 Subject: gifts for Sanskrit teachers Message-ID: <161227055710.23782.707950530535185860.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: >This sort of imagery seems to recur in Indian poetry. In the >Sankaravijaya texts, Sankara identifies Mandana Misra's house as >the one where the parrots are debating the theories of svata.h >pramANa and parata.h pramANa. The imagery of parrots speaking in a 'hidden' language is real old. Even their name, ki.li/ki.l.lai is related to speech (ki.lavi/ki.lattal). CT perumpaa.naa.r.ruppa.tai mentions parrots singing vedas at Brahmins' homes - "va.lai vaayk ki.l.lai ma.rai vi.li payi.r.rum ma.rai kaappaa.lar u.rai pati ceeppi_n". Two examples close in time to Sankaravijaya texts. "ta.n taar meyk ki.lik kuu.t.tam caa_n.roorka.l urai payi.r.ra" - villi p. "tii vi_nai anta.naa.lar ci.raar payil teyva veetam naa uru ee.r.rak kee.t.tuk ki.lika.loo navilum vee.r.rup puuvaiyum payi_n.ru puttee.l ulaku u.rai putu mantaarak kaa u.rai ki.lika.tku ellaam kaca.ta.rap payi.r.ru ma_n_noo" -tiruvi.lai. Regards, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Thu Feb 3 17:18:37 2000 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 18:18:37 +0100 Subject: AgneyAstrAdikam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055697.23782.1312489434312557564.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sergei Tawaststjerna, please accept my respectful greetings. > In Raghuvamza (3.31) Kalidasa wrote that Rama learnt the science of > missiles with their incantations from his father (azikSatAstraM > pitureva mantravat). Mallinatha explains 'mantravat' as > 'samantrakam astram AgneyAdikam'. Does it mean that there were > specific mantras for kshatriyas, or does he mean some Vedic mantras? > Were these mantras used before or during the battle? Of what kind > were these mantras (may be curse or abuse towards enemies)? Are > there any surviving texts? Monier-Williams dictionary gives > 'AgneyAstra' as a tantric formula (?). Although I have no proof, but I guess the mantras mentioned in Raghuvamsa are those from Dhanur Veda. At least according to the tradition, when a ksatriya releases an arrow he utters a particular mantra in order to invoke a particular deity who presides over particular "spells of nature". Thus, for example, I can shoot an arrow "accompanied" with fire (to burn my enemy), for this purpose, most probably, I need to invoke Agnideva, who is the Fire himself. To counteract such an arrow, one has to shoot an arrow "accompanied" with water (to extinguish the fire), I need to invoke, probably, Varuna. So, it works like this. Even the so-called brahmastra requires a mantra uttered by the archer and can be counteracted by another brahmastra only (compare Bhagavata Purana, first Canto). I hope this helps somehow. With best wishes, Sergei Schmalz. From onze at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Feb 4 02:22:10 2000 From: onze at SYMPATICO.CA (j. villeneuve) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 21:22:10 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055712.23782.12934517886386938986.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good evening, Being new to the study of Indian philosophy, and doing so in a very solitary manner, I have recently encountered a slight difficulty establishing if the Isha Upanishad, and the "Eesa" Upanishad (out of which I have only a fragment) are the one and same text. This is, as you have guessed, due primarily to my lack of knowledge of sanskrit, which will be duly fixed as time permits. If the answer is not already apparent to the readers of which list, which would surprise me, here are the two fragments that comparatively plunge me into confusion concerning their dis/similitude. From the "Eesa" Upanishad: Andham tamah pravisan?i ? avidy?m up?sat? | Tat? bh?ya ?va t? tam?ya ? vidyayam rat?h ||...9 Blind dark worlds they enter, [andhah, tamah, pravisanti,] those that perform rituals alone, [ye, avidyaam, upasate,] into still blinding darker worlds they will go, [tato, bhooya,iva,tey] those that take delight in ascetic meditation [ye, u, vidyayam,rataah ] From the Isha Upanishad (Nilgiri edition, trans. by Eknath Easwaran): "In dark night live those for whom The world without alone is real; in night Darker still, for whom the world within Alone is real. The first leads to a life Of action, the second to a life of meditation." Thanks for your kind assistance, Please reply privately to avoid crowding the list with a probably very evident (to the assembled) answer, J. Villeneuve From onze at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Feb 4 03:39:07 2000 From: onze at SYMPATICO.CA (j. villeneuve) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 22:39:07 -0500 Subject: Many thanks. Message-ID: <161227055714.23782.17434847917502946406.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Good evening, I have received a prompt number of very accurate indications and I want to thank this forum for their precious help, especially on pointing me toward the Olivelle translation of the Upanishads, which is apparently a consensus. Mr. Agarwal, Carpenter, Wallis, my most profound thanks for guiding the cautious and insecure steps of the novice. J. Villeneuve UQAM, Montreal, Canada. From jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO Thu Feb 3 22:49:04 2000 From: jon.skarpeid at HINT.NO (Jon Skarpeid) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 00 23:49:04 +0100 Subject: Hindu concept of time Message-ID: <161227045946.23782.6795463772115943375.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Victor! I forgot to mention an article about Indian time by Eliade. However, I do not remember the name of the article. It is in a book with several essays on time in different religions and culture. Contact me in end of this month, and I should be able to give you the data. Best regards Jon. From mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA Fri Feb 4 18:03:49 2000 From: mbose at INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA (Mandakranta Bose) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 10:03:49 -0800 Subject: Help requested Message-ID: <161227055722.23782.12264428663081324240.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Friends, Could someone help me with the name of the publisher and the publication date of a book, Rabindranath O Padavalisahitya, by Professor Biman Bihari Majumdar ? Many thanks in advance. Mandakranta Bose Director, Centre for India and South Asia Research Institute of Asian Research University of British Columbia Vancouver B.C. V6T 1Z2 mbose at interchange.ubc.ca From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 4 18:59:18 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 10:59:18 -0800 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears Message-ID: <161227055726.23782.3689444353768672088.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re Vedaadhikara of sudras etc, there is this interesting sloka (9.21) in the drama, Mrichhakatikam which many of you may be familiar with: vedArthAnprAkRtastvam vadasi na ca te jihvA nipatitA madhyanhe vIkSHase'rkam na tava sahasA dRSHTirvicalita dIptAgnau pANimantah kSHipasi sa ca te dagdho bhavati no cAritryAccArudattam calayasi na te deham harati bhUh. The translation is as follows: You, a low caste fellow, are explaining the sense of the vedas and yet your tongue does not fall off! You are gazing at the sun at mid-day, and still your eyes are not suddenly struck blind! You are putting your hand inside the blazing fire and yet that hand of yours is not burnt! You are depriving Charudatta of his good name and still the Earth does not gulp down your body! (From M.R. Kale) This sloka is spoken to Shakara, the villain, by the judge who's come to inquire into the disappearance of Vasantasena. In the notes ("commentary of Prithvidhara enlarged where necessary"), the first line is explained as " Your action in impeaching Carudatta is as heinous as that of an outcast expounding the Vedas, the penalty for which is the falling off of the tongue". The series of bad acts in the sloka seems to attract retribution only from Providence not from the hand of the law giver. Even the judge, possibly a Brahmin, seems to acknowldge that. Is it possible to infer from the tone of the sloka that sudras ("low born" or whatever prAkRta connotes) could and did recite the Vedas at the time of this drama. Perhaps it was only the Brahmins who thought they viz., the Sudras ("low born") ought not. Historically is it possible to compare the times of this drama and the time of specific prescription like "pour molten lead into the ears" etc.. Appreciate any input in this regard. Thanks and Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From tarekwani at USA.COM Fri Feb 4 16:24:56 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 11:24:56 -0500 Subject: UBS university Message-ID: <161227055718.23782.918151707209931426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The UBS site recommended by Dominik W. was delightful. But if they follow post-rational thought would Harvard, SOAS and Swami Agnivesh not sponsor an International Conference on "Insurance, Wife-Shooting, and Babe-Preferance"? -TW --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 4 13:44:15 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 13:44:15 +0000 Subject: UBS university Message-ID: <161227055716.23782.8817836784745545929.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It would be quite wrong of me to abuse my position as founder of the INDOLOGY list to mention a completely unrelated topic such as the inspired website of the University of Bums on Seats (http://www.cynicalbastards.com/ubs/), which exemplifies all that is so very special in British higher education today. However, perhaps there is a relevance after all, since members of INDOLOGY may be interested in registering for a fasttrack E-Degree in Post-Rational Discourse. This would certainly have a dramatically exiguous impact on the discussion of some topics in this forum. -- Dominik Wujastyk From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 5 00:38:17 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 16:38:17 -0800 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears Message-ID: <161227055730.23782.6606423751460912837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Re: ArAdhya brAhmaNas and vizvakarmas - the former group is expressly associated with the vIrazaivas, but they intermarry with other brAhmaNa groups. The ArAdhyas do not intermarry with other vIrazaivas. Perhaps their origins lie among the brAhmaNa relatives of Basava himself. The vizvakarmas, on the other hand, are not all of them vIrazaiva, and they do not intermarry with other brAhmaNas. Nor do others consider them to be brAhmaNas. It is perhaps understandable that among vIrazaiva authors, the vizvakarmas have a high representation, but one must account for the fact that members of these skilled artisan castes were also the most likely to be literate. One must distinguish between caste identity, mostly guaranteed by birth, and a religious identity, adopted by considering oneself a follower of Basava. Take the case of the kOmaTis in Andhra, another skilled artisan and trader group. There are ordinary zaivas, vIrazaivas, zrIvaishNavas and mAdhvas among them, but they all have a fairly coherent caste identity as kOmaTis. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Fri Feb 4 16:50:43 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 17:50:43 +0100 Subject: Request Message-ID: <161227055720.23782.3343789875626636060.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members of the net! I would like to look into how the Vedas and Vedic religion is being presented to a wider audience in India today. In this connection, I am looking for books that aim at explaining Vedic knowledge/Vedic philosophy/Vedic religion to the more or less educated layman. The books should be in either English or Hindi. I have tried to have a look at the various Internet book sellers and I have found a number of titles that might be of interest, but it would be extremely helpful if some of you had any suggestions that would make me find my way quicker to the most relevant books. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From Palaniappa at AOL.COM Fri Feb 4 22:58:25 2000 From: Palaniappa at AOL.COM (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 17:58:25 -0500 Subject: Narada Message-ID: <161227055728.23782.10300906251843630659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I would like to note the following discussion by Asko Parpola in his "The Pre-Vedic Indian Background of the S'rauta Rituals" in "Agni: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar" ed. by Frits Staal. Discussing the etymology of the word kinnara, he says, "The second part of the compound could be the Proto-Dravidian root Jaral, naral, naraku, etc., meaning "to sound, make noise, hum (as many voices), grumble, groan, roar," which is attested in all branches of Dravidian from Tamil to Malto (DED 2365). In Tamil we have from this root naralvu 'sounding, roaring, high pitch, vibrating sound of a lute', and narampu 'the string of the harp (yAz)' (also 'the particular tune appropriate to the string' and 'stringed instrument'), which is attested very many times in Old Tamil texts, including the most ancient one (tolkAppiyam, ez.33; akam 109.2; see also Subrahmanian 1966, 479, and Tamil Lexicon, s.v.). Another possibility is the Proto-Dravidian word Jarampu, narampu 'nerve, sinew, vein' (DED + DEDS + DEN no. 2364, attested from Tamil to Malto), from which we have forms like Kannada naravu, nara, Tulu nara, Telugu naramu, Kolami naram, Gondi naral, naram. Sinews have been used as bow and harp strings, and so the former item seems to be derived from the word." He also derives the Old Babylonian word "kinnArum" from this Dravidian nara. Considering Narada's association with music, I would ask IE/IA experts if the name cannot be derived from Dravidian nar-. Regards S. Palaniappan From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 4 18:51:03 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 00 18:51:03 +0000 Subject: "Lay" books on Veda (was: Request) In-Reply-To: <01BF6F38.766BEF20.lmfosse@online.no> Message-ID: <161227055724.23782.3946163615396166574.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The publications by Chandrashekharendrasarasvati would meet your criteria, I believe. Best, -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From rchawla at DELLNET.COM Sat Feb 5 16:03:51 2000 From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 00 08:03:51 -0800 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India Message-ID: <161227055731.23782.15432346212971435588.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I hope you are making just a bad joke. However, it is *not* appreciated. > > Yashwant Enrica, Yashwant is not joking. This is even true today in many muslim cultures. My prediction is that this will become true again in India and China in the next tweny/thirty years. In these countries many girls are now being aborted before they are born. This will lead to shortage of women. After a while, only way for a man to get a woman in marriage would be to pay some price. Older men with money will be able to pay that price while the younger men , with less or no money, will have to wait. Regards. RChawla > Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > > > problem. A lot of young men remain unmarried because > > they can not afford to pay the bride price. Rich > > older men can get brides very easily. If the editor > > were alive today, he would be happy to see that the > > problem has ceased to exist. > > > >> > Enrica > -- > Dr. Enrica Garzilli University of Perugia (ITALY) > Istituto di Linguistica Piazza Morlacchi, 11 > 06123 Perugia Tel./Fax: +39-75-585 3755 (office) > Editor-in-Chief, > Intl. Journ. of Tantric Studies, Journal of S. Asia Women Studies > http://www.asiatica.org/ > ***************************************************************** From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 5 21:41:03 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 00 14:41:03 -0700 Subject: Announc: 5th Dowry Conference in India In-Reply-To: <005201bf6ff2$993ddbc0$1d93173f@8lijy> Message-ID: <161227055735.23782.12964401930360758681.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Enrica Garzilli wrote: > I hope you are making just a bad joke. However, it is *not* appreciated. > > Yashwant I have scanned the related page from "Parvar Directory" and have temporarily placed it at http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/z/parvar.gif I have a crumbling copy of the book. I should mention that dowry is quite common among Parvars today, as it is among other North Indian trader communities. Yashwant From fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT Sat Feb 5 16:44:44 2000 From: fsquarcini at FTBCC.IT (Federico Squarcini) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 00 17:44:44 +0100 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears In-Reply-To: <20000205003817.61537.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227055733.23782.14336406278238657953.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear members, I'm not sure about receiving all the messages regardind the issue "Re: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears", because I cannot trace the beginning of the discussion (even from the Indology archive-list), which has been interesting until now. Particularly, I do not know if an initial list of "standard" quotes from scriptures related to the problem has been the starting point of the debate. So, if this is the case, any of the contributors of the issue can send me a resume of the starting point passages from texts? Federico Squarcini From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Sun Feb 6 05:52:43 2000 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 00:52:43 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055739.23782.15316586558141050700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Arun Gupta wrote: > With all due respect to the scholars, you would go to learn to box > from a boxer and not from a historian of boxing. > > The Upanishads are very much the underpinning of modern India. > Mahatma Gandhi said, that if only certain three words were to survive > from the Isha Upanishad from all the corpus of Hinduism, it would be > sufficient : tena tyakten bhunjitah. Ah, but the boxer and the historian are not at odds, otherwise, the boxer would be hit in the head for failing to remember the opponent's past, and the historian would otherwise not be there to remind: kavir manISI paribhUH svayambhUr yAthAtathyato 'rthAn vadadhAc chAzvatIbhyaH samAbhyaH and so it goes, then, vidyAM cAvidyAM ca yastad vedobhayaM saha avidyayA mRtyuM tIrtvA vidyayAmRtam aznute with all due respect, of course, for historian and boxer--either wise enough to ply their trade--know that the context in which an event--or quote--occurs is inseparable from its relevance and meaning, ;-) jr =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= John Robert Gardner ATLA-CERTR Emory University ------------------------------------------------------------ http://vedavid.org/diss/ "If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do, begin it. In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . " -Goethe From cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Sun Feb 6 06:04:53 2000 From: cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Chris Wallis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 01:04:53 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055741.23782.15445105826600579475.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This is a theological, not a scholarly, opinion. While I have the highest respect for the late Mr Easwaran, any translation which forms a part of a corpus of modern religious teaching will be interpretatively rendered to conform to the doctrinal elements of that teaching. Hence, the original contextuality of the document is lost or altered. Much is back-projected onto the Upanishads from the subsequent 2500 years of thought. A very accurate, philologically rigorous, translation (like, IMO, Olivelle's) gives us better access to the original text for our own interpretation. (Needless to say, reading in the Skt is by far the best option where possible.) C. Wallis > Regarding the meaning of the Isha Upanishad, I would go with the > Eknath Easwaran translation, if I were you. The Upanishads are > not museum pieces, to be referred to linguistic and philological experts > for precise meanings. The Upanishads are meant to be applied to living, > and require an illumined teacher who can add the benefit of experience. > These are not mathematical equations, these are poetry. Eknath Easwaran > (passed away in 1999) is about as good as you can get via books. > With all due respect to the scholars, you would go to learn to box > from a boxer and not from a historian of boxing. > > The Upanishads are very much the underpinning of modern India. > Mahatma Gandhi said, that if only certain three words were to survive > from the Isha Upanishad from all the corpus of Hinduism, it would be > sufficient : tena tyakten bhunjitah. > > -arun gupta > ______________________________________ Christopher D. Wallis President, Religion & Classics Council University of Rochester ** Believe in love. ** From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Sun Feb 6 04:58:02 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 04:58:02 +0000 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055737.23782.9884558861534343129.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Regarding the meaning of the Isha Upanishad, I would go with the Eknath Easwaran translation, if I were you. The Upanishads are not museum pieces, to be referred to linguistic and philological experts for precise meanings. The Upanishads are meant to be applied to living, and require an illumined teacher who can add the benefit of experience. These are not mathematical equations, these are poetry. Eknath Easwaran (passed away in 1999) is about as good as you can get via books. With all due respect to the scholars, you would go to learn to box from a boxer and not from a historian of boxing. The Upanishads are very much the underpinning of modern India. Mahatma Gandhi said, that if only certain three words were to survive from the Isha Upanishad from all the corpus of Hinduism, it would be sufficient : tena tyakten bhunjitah. -arun gupta From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 6 16:32:34 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 08:32:34 -0800 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? Message-ID: <161227055743.23782.9452004938627833220.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear listmembers, Was the flesh of the sacrificed horse eaten or not? Thanks in advance. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From cssetzer at MUM.EDU Sun Feb 6 16:04:37 2000 From: cssetzer at MUM.EDU (Claude Setzer) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 10:04:37 -0600 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055746.23782.2517177683890132936.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> . A very > accurate, philologically rigorous, translation (like, IMO, Olivelle's) > gives us better access to the original text for our own interpretation. > (Needless to say, reading in the Skt is by far the best option where > possible.) > > C. Wallis > > > Regarding the meaning of the Isha Upanishad, I would go with the > > Eknath Easwaran translation, if I were you. The Upanishads are > > not museum pieces, to be referred to linguistic and philological experts > I think both of these viewpoints have used adjectives too strong to keep the "truth" of their points. It is very unfortunate that even scholars with the highest reputation often translate incorrectly, even to the extent that a fairly novice Sanskrit person can see their errors. Reading in Sanskrit with several translations of others at hand (especially annotated ones) will almost always give a more accurate reading than trusting any one person, no matter who it is. Claude Setzer From cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Sun Feb 6 17:41:25 2000 From: cw002g at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Chris Wallis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 12:41:25 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. In-Reply-To: <001201bf70bb$e06872c0$18cc91d0@cs> Message-ID: <161227055748.23782.17427774350560406523.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Reading in Sanskrit with several translations of others at hand (especially > annotated ones) will almost always give a more accurate reading than > trusting any one person, no matter who it is. Absolutely true -- thank you for this. And if the reader is not proficient in Skt., still, the 'several translations at once' comparative method is a good one. C. Wallis ______________________________________ Christopher D. Wallis President, Religion & Classics Council University of Rochester ** Believe in love. ** From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Sun Feb 6 22:59:17 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 14:59:17 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055758.23782.10395225376034622584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:58 AM 02/06/2000 +0000, Arun Gupta wrote: > > The Upanishads are >not museum pieces, to be referred to linguistic and philological experts >for precise meanings. The Upanishads are meant to be applied to living, >and require an illumined teacher who can add the benefit of experience. >These are not mathematical equations, these are poetry. Do all contemporary poets agree on the meaning of ancient poems? >With all due respect to the scholars, you would go to learn to box >from a boxer and not from a historian of boxing. What you learn from a boxer is how "he" fights and, maybe, how his teacher(s) fought. He might be totally ignorant of how a Roman boxer fought. For that, a historian can help. In any case, a good historian will also be familiar with how present-day boxers fight. Religious and mystical texts have been in the past, are today, and will continue to be in the future, interpreted in different ways that are colored by the interpreter's cultural, social and personal background. This even includes, at least to a large degree, texts that describe mystical experiences, for although upon experiencing something one might feel that one has "really understood" what an ancient text is describing, there can never be absolute certainty that that is the case. Philology and a familiarity with the context in which the text was composed can be of great help in trying to understand what the author meant, and also what the text meant to those who heard it from him (and even these last two are not necessarily the same). Often, someone is convinced that he (or she) has "really understood" what a sacred text is saying. This can come as a sudden "revelation" or as the result of certain practices. This person might then start spreading the word, and that is how a new religious movement is born. If all of these interpreters agreed, things would probably be a lot simpler. But that just isn't the case. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Sun Feb 6 17:39:29 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 18:39:29 +0100 Subject: Q: Manu on Pouring Lead in Sudra Ears In-Reply-To: <20000205003817.61537.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227055750.23782.1026051934440396747.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 4 Feb 00, at 16:38, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > Re: ArAdhya brAhmaNas and vizvakarmas - the former group is expressly > associated with the vIrazaivas, but they intermarry with other brAhmaNa > groups. Interesting. Perhaps this is a regionally limited phenomenon? (The brahmins I know in southern Karnataka have an ambiguous attitude towards the Aaraadhyas: a 'sort of brahmins', who are respectable for their traditional learning and general lifestyle, but at the same time they are Virasaivas and 'therefore' they 'cannot be brahmins'. Similarly, there is a widespread notion that Ayyangars cannot be 'real' brahmins.) > The ArAdhyas do not intermarry with other vIrazaivas. This is also the case with the 'jangamas', who were mentioned earlier in this thread. This compartmentalisation of the religious community into sub-castes, although it is not so very recent, goes against the original spirit of Virasaivism (cf. explicit 12th- to 15th- century Virasaiva writings) and is an ongoing matter of controversy. Occasionally it occurs as a theme in contemporary Kannada literature. > Perhaps their origins lie among the brAhmaNa relatives of Basava > himself. I have not made any deep enquiry, but the general belief seems to be that the Aaraadhyas were originally from what is now Andhra Pradesh. > The vizvakarmas, on the other hand, are not all of them vIrazaiva, (A Dutch anthropologist who has written a study on the Viswakarmas once told me that there are also Sikh Viswakarmas.) > One must distinguish between caste identity, mostly guaranteed by birth, and > a religious identity, adopted by considering oneself a follower of Basava. > Take the case of the kOmaTis in Andhra, another skilled artisan and trader > group. There are ordinary zaivas, vIrazaivas, zrIvaishNavas and mAdhvas > among them, but they all have a fairly coherent caste identity as kOmaTis. Another nice illustration is the community to which the royal family of Mysore belongs: among them there are Jainas, Virasaivas and Srivaishnavas, but their caste identity outweighs religious adherence when it comes to matters such as possible marriage ties. RZ From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Sun Feb 6 18:00:19 2000 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 19:00:19 +0100 Subject: Obituary - Prof. M. Taddei Message-ID: <161227055753.23782.10331529719269091155.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, with deepest sadness and personal regret, I announce the sudden and untimely death of the colleague and friend Professor Maurizio Taddei, one of the most oustanding historians of Indian art and culture of our times. Raffaele Torella Prof. Raffaele Torella Chair of Sanskrit Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza' fax 0039 06 4451209 From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Sun Feb 6 18:02:15 2000 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 19:02:15 +0100 Subject: Obituary - Prof. M. Taddei Message-ID: <161227055754.23782.4377147951836238265.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members, with deepest sadness and personal regret, I announce the sudden and untimely death of the colleague and friend Professor Maurizio Taddei, one of the most outstanding historians of Indian art and culture of our times. Raffaele Torella Prof. Raffaele Torella Chair of Sanskrit Dipartimento di Studi Orientali Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza' fax 0039 06 4451209 From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Feb 7 00:46:59 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 19:46:59 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055760.23782.14223144428588324994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following question is forwarded from the Classics List by request from Anne Mahoney. Answers my be sent directly to her, but I'd appreciate seeing any responses [which I would forward to the Classics List, where there are others interested in the question]. Perhaps other Indologists would also be interested. Thanks from George Thompson, as well as from Anne Mahoney [mahoa at bu.edu (Anne Mahoney)]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. I've been reading Lowell Edmunds's "Oedipus: The Ancient Legend and its Later Analogues." Edmunds makes the tantalizing remark in his introduction that he's left out a few potentially relevant Sanskrit folktales for reasons of space. I'm curious: does anyone have a reference to Oedipus-like stories in Sanskrit? What I really want is to see if there's an Indo-European version of the story from which Sophocles might have taken a detail or two (formulaic, metrical, or in the plot). Watkins, "How to Kill a Dragon," provides no enlightenment. Any leads would be gratefully received. This is highly tangential to my real work but it's piqued my curiosity. --Anne Mahoney Boston U Stoa Consortium From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 7 01:22:48 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 20:22:48 -0500 Subject: Realisation of anusvAra in vedic recitation Message-ID: <161227055762.23782.15741738943156472131.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members: I have two recitation tapes of the Rudram. They follow the same text to the letter. (The chanting book that accompanies one of these tapes states that the text is from the Krishna Yajur Veda). The two tapes follow the musical realization of the taittirIya school i.e. sannatara low tone, unmarked syllables mid-tone, and svarita high tone. (see Madhav Deshpande's posting of Jan. 19, 2000 Re: Vedic Accent in Taittiriya samhita). However the two tapes realize anusvAra before s,z,S,r and h in two completely different manners. In the following any accent signs will follow the syllable they apply to. Svarita is indicated by ' sannatara by _ Tape A: AnusvAra before sibilants,r, and h is realized as the sound [gum] ( the one case in the Rudram of anusvAra resulting from sandhi of final n after A and before a vowel is also realized as [gum]) There are the following exceptions: Namakam section 1. ... higU'msIH_ purU'Sam_ jaga't | i.e. [gUm] ahIgi'mzca_ sarvA"njambhayant_ ... i.e. [gim] Tape B: AnusvAra before sibilants,r, and h is realized as the sound [ga] ( the one case in the Rudram of anusvAra resulting from sandhi of final n after A and before a vowel is also realized as [ga]) There are the following exceptions : Namakam section 1. ... higu'sIH_ purU'Sam_ jaga't | i.e. [gu] ahIgu'zca_ sarvA"njambhayant_ ... i.e. [gu] Namakam section 3. nama'H sRkA_vibhyo_ jighAgu' sadbhyo ... i.e. [gu] Namakam section 10. yAste' sa_hasrago' he_tayo_ ... i.e. [go] Namakam section 11. teSAgo' shasryo ja_neva_ ... i.e. [go] ...divago' ru_drA ... i.e. [go] ...bhUyAgo sazca_ ... i.e. [go] ...vi_zva bhe"Sa jo_yaM zi_vAbhi' marzanaH | i.e. [M] Camakam section 1 ... parugu' Si ca me_ ... i.e. [gu] Camakam section 11 ... sa_ptavigo' zatizca me_ ... i.e. [go] ... STAvigo' zatizca me_ ... i.e. [go] ... dvAtrigo zacha me_ ... i.e. [go] ... zaTtrigo' zacha me ... i.e. [go] Wayne Howard in "Vedic Recitation in Varanasi" mentions something similar but it is for the mAdhyandina yajurveda recitation and not for the taittirIya samhita school. See page 123: "Another distinguishing feature of this recitation [mAdhyandina] is the pronunciation of anusvAra before z,S,s, and r as ghuM." Could any list members clarify for me the realization of anusvAra in vedic recitation. Particularily as it applies to the krishna yajur veda and can they give me the explanation for the differences in the realization of tape A and tape B I've summarized above. Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sun Feb 6 21:53:03 2000 From: jhouben at RULLET.LEIDENUNIV.NL (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 00 22:53:03 +0100 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? Message-ID: <161227055756.23782.164372525865738267.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the Rgvedic horse sacrifice as it appears in RV 1.162 the horse was killed with an axe (1.162.9), parts of it are explicitly eaten (cf. RV 1.162.12: y/e c/Arvato mAMsabhikS/Am upAsat/e; ). In the azvamedha of the zrauta-sUtras the horse is suffocated, and much attention is paid to the burning of parts (offering to the gods) after the ceremonies with the queen. Eating is not prominent (cf. Dumont's Asvamedha 1927, consommation of iDA). In the description of the azvamedha in the mahAbhArata mention is made of the smelling of horse meat by the sacrificer (yudhiSThira) (Dumont p. 387). For some reflections on a gradual receding in importance of actual eating in Vedic ritual in general (not specifically the horse sacrifice) cf. Heesterman, The Broken World of Sacrifice, Chicago Univ. Press p. 189ff. JH Jan E.M. Houben, Kern Institute, Leiden University, P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL -----Original Message----- From: Haridas C To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Sunday, February 06, 2000 5:35 PM Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? >Dear listmembers, > >Was the flesh of the sacrificed horse eaten or not? > >Thanks in advance. >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com From b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT Mon Feb 7 01:42:33 2000 From: b.loturco at AGORA.STM.IT (Bruno Lo Turco) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 02:42:33 +0100 Subject: Vesak Message-ID: <161227055767.23782.13520283251088368089.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, could someone supply a short bibliography on the Vesak festival, and especially on its Indian origins? TIA Bruno Lo Turco b.loturco at agora.stm.it From jankbrz at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 7 12:15:37 2000 From: jankbrz at YAHOO.COM (Jan Brzezinski) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 04:15:37 -0800 Subject: Narada Message-ID: <161227055774.23782.16540552813616581336.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks for your help. Your reply was very useful. Jan --- "Robert P. Goldman" wrote: > The RAmAyaNa commentator GovindarAja in his > RAmAyaNabhUSaNa on VAlmIki > RAmAyaNa offers no fewer than three (fanciful or > otherwise) etymologies for > the name NArada. > > 1. narasya saMbandhi nAram "narAc ceti vaktavyam" > ityaN. ajJAnam ity > arthaH. tad dyati khaNDayatIti nAradaH. do > avakhaNDane ity asmAd dhAtoH. > "Adeca upadeze 'ziti" ityAtve sati "Ato 'nupasarge > kaH" iti kapratyayaH > ajJAnanivartaka ityarthaH. ( Go. then quotes a vs. > from the N?radIya to > the effect that N. does, in fact, destroy the > darkness born of ignorance > for men.) > > 2. yad vA nAraM jJAnaM . tad dadAtIti nAradaH. > > 3. yad vA narati sadgatiM prApayatIti naraH > paramAtmA. nR naya ity asmAd > dhAtoH pacAdyac. ( Go.then quotes a vs. from the > BhArata substantiating > the equation of nara and paramAtman and continues) > sa eva nAras taM dadAty > upadizatIti nAradas tam... > > So we see that (acc. to Go.) far from rejecting or > opposing the world, > NAradamuni is really rather a useful chap to have > around, destroying > ignorance, giving knowledge and setting our feet on > the path of the > virtuous etc. Clearly V?lm?ki (and his commentator) > is not interested in > foregrounding N's reputation as kalahapriyaH. > > > > >On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jan Brzezinski wrote: > > > >> Any etymologies, fanciful or otherwise, for > nArada, > >> the RSi? > > > >I remember that Parbu Bhopo, the Pabuji bard with > whom I worked in the 70s > >and 80s, explained the name (with reference to > Narada's notoriously > >quarrelsome nature) as meaning "jo duniyAM ko > *radd* kartA hai" -- he who > >rejects/opposes the world. > > > >John Smith > > > >-- > >Dr J. D. Smith * jds10 at cam.ac.uk > >Faculty of Oriental Studies * Tel. 01223 335140 > (Switchboard 01223 335106) > >Sidgwick Avenue * Fax 01223 335110 > >Cambridge CB3 9DA * > http://bombay.oriental.cam.ac.uk/index.html > > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies > Professor of Sanskrit and > Chairman, > Center for South Asia Studies > 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 > University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu > Phone: (510) 642-4089 > Fax: (510) 643-2959 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 7 16:14:30 2000 From: reusch at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (B. Reusch) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 08:14:30 -0800 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055785.23782.1032321714180958056.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jonathan Silk wrote: >I actually have a paper that's been sitting *almost* finished >for years I also have an unfinished paper sitting around for a few years now. It needs more work, though. >My paper concerns Buddhist versions, [...] I can see no reason for >believing there >to be an Indo-European version that might underlie Indic and Greek >versions. It sounds like my approach is a little different. Beatrice Reusch University of California, Berkeley From jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU Mon Feb 7 13:56:28 2000 From: jonathan.silk at YALE.EDU (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 08:56:28 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055781.23782.5568626364226803926.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well... I actually have a paper that's been sitting *almost* finished for years (I've presented it a few times) on this. For now, one might just refer to AK Ramanujan's paper on the Indian Oedipus, and a paper of Robert Goldman. I can quickly get you the exact references if you need them. My paper concerns Buddhist versions, which among other things I believe disprove some of the claims made by Ramanujan and Goldman. On the other hand, I can see no reason for believing there to be an Indo-European version that might underlie Indic and Greek versions. Jonathan Silk jonathan.silk at yale.edu Dept. of Religious Studies Yale University 320 Temple St. New Haven CT 06520-8287 USA tel. 203-432-0828 fax. 203-432-7844 From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Feb 7 15:37:01 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 10:37:01 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055783.23782.18430418550994479043.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shiva and PArvati's son andhaka grows up abandoned by his parents. After growing up he becomes a king among the asuras and makes advances on his mother not knowing who she really was. He is defeated by shiva and repents when he finds out that parvati is really his mother. Well I read this as a kid from the amar chitra kathA a popular childrens illustrated book which often has stories from Indian mythology. regards R Banerjee From tarekwani at USA.COM Mon Feb 7 16:31:07 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 11:31:07 -0500 Subject: Narada Message-ID: <161227055789.23782.17258682498785548924.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> An ethnographer friend working in Madhya Pradesh has mailed me a file of unusual names of gods and goddesses. Here is the list: cakhIb (god-child) vakaH (tree) pautunob kUl palenk itahamna hibalba ihacel (moon) Would any linguists care to comment on their etymology? -TW --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 7 11:52:00 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 11:52:00 +0000 Subject: IGNCA, New Delhi In-Reply-To: <389EA217.B533CCA8@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227055772.23782.12191692657109860090.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There have been important changes at the IGNCA in New Delhi. A salvo of criticism was aimed at the institution by the journalist Talveen Singh in India Today, at the end of last year, which highlights some of the common perceptions about difficulties at IGNCA (see http://www.india-today.com/itoday/19991011/singh.html). More recently, the major changes in the board of Trustees were reported in the January 24 issue of the same magazine (http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20000124/arts.html). The new Member Secretary of the IGNCA is C. N. R. Shetty, former VC of Bangalore University. He replaces Kapila Vatsyayan (who was Academic Director after being Memb. Sec.) -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Mon Feb 7 01:40:30 2000 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 12:40:30 +1100 Subject: Obituary - Prof. M. Taddei In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055763.23782.11676321996082970311.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Raffaele, My first article was published in the Naples Annali, the offer of publication being made by Professor Taddei. He was an excellent scholar and he will be lost in the Indological world. Thanks for your very valuable comments on John Dupuche's thesis. All the examiners passed the thesis and he has now made final revisions to the copy of the thesis to be placed in the university library. If you are going to Torino (as I assume you are) he may want to discuss some problems of translation with you. he is going tot he Sanskrit conference. I hope your work progresses. I am taking five months long service leave in order to finish the second volume of the Ga.nezapuraa.na translation and to work further on other projects. Cheers, Greg >Dear Members, >with deepest sadness and personal regret, I announce the sudden and >untimely death of the colleague and friend Professor Maurizio >Taddei, one of the most oustanding historians of Indian art and >culture of our times. > >Raffaele Torella > > >Prof. Raffaele Torella >Chair of Sanskrit >Dipartimento di Studi Orientali >Universita di Roma 'La Sapienza' >fax 0039 06 4451209 From Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU Mon Feb 7 01:42:17 2000 From: Greg.Bailey at LATROBE.EDU.AU (Dr. Greg Bailey) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 12:42:17 +1100 Subject: Obituary - Prof. M. Taddei In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055765.23782.10188604797592733737.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Apologies to members of the list. my message was meant to be a personal one to Professor Torella. With bets wishes, Greg Bailey From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 7 12:56:40 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 12:56:40 +0000 Subject: Electronic books on S. Asia Message-ID: <161227055777.23782.1159450281594103291.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Electronic Editions of UC Press books A test database of 60 full text electronic books published by the University of California Press which are freely available online. Subject areas covered include South Asia. See: http://www.ucpress.edu/scan/books.html From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Mon Feb 7 12:24:23 2000 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 13:24:23 +0100 Subject: Asiatic Society Calcutta Message-ID: <161227055775.23782.4409301853212947767.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear INDOLOGY members, please accept my respectful greetings. Does anybody have postal address or preferably e-mail of Asiatic Society in Calcutta? With best regards, Sergei Schmalz. From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Mon Feb 7 14:09:23 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 14:09:23 +0000 Subject: Asiatic Society Calcutta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055779.23782.7285062654378477073.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Does anybody have postal address or > preferably e-mail of Asiatic Society in Calcutta? The Asiatic Society 1, Park Street Calcutta 700 006 www.indev.nic.in/asiatic -- Lubomir Ondracka ============================================= Institute of Philosophy & Religious Studies Charles University Namesti Jana Palacha 2 116 38 Prague 1 Czech Republic --------------------------------------------- e-mail: ondracka at tiger.vscht.cz --------------------------------------------- phone: 00420-2-21619356 ============================================= From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Mon Feb 7 10:44:40 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 16:14:40 +0530 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055769.23782.6420889711846258587.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Luis Gonzalez-Reimann wrote: > At 04:58 AM 02/06/2000 +0000, Arun Gupta wrote: > > > > The Upanishads are > >not museum pieces, to be referred to linguistic and philological experts > >for precise meanings. The Upanishads are meant to be applied to living, > >and require an illumined teacher who can add the benefit of experience. > >These are not mathematical equations, these are poetry. > > Do all contemporary poets agree on the meaning of ancient poems? > > >With all due respect to the scholars, you would go to learn to box > >from a boxer and not from a historian of boxing. > > What you learn from a boxer is how "he" fights and, maybe, how his > teacher(s) fought. He might be totally ignorant of how a Roman boxer > fought. For that, a historian can help. In any case, a good historian will > also be familiar with how present-day boxers fight. > > Religious and mystical texts have been in the past, are today, and will > continue to be in the future, interpreted in different ways that are > colored by the interpreter's cultural, social and personal background. > This even includes, at least to a large degree, texts that describe > mystical experiences, for although upon experiencing something one might > feel that one has "really understood" what an ancient text is describing, > there can never be absolute certainty that that is the case. > Philology and a familiarity with the context in which the text was composed > can be of great help in trying to understand what the author meant, and > also what the text meant to those who heard it from him (and even these > last two are not necessarily the same). > > Often, someone is convinced that he (or she) has "really understood" what a > sacred text is saying. This can come as a sudden "revelation" or as the > result of certain practices. This person might then start spreading the > word, and that is how a new religious movement is born. If all of these > interpreters agreed, things would probably be a lot simpler. But that just > isn't the case. > > Luis Gonzalez-Reimann > University of California, Berkeley Spiritual experience is not like learning boxing. It is beyond any language. I think this discussion is between persons who do not really know the nature of contents of religious texts. "Yato vacho nirvatante aprapya manasaa saha ....". Here is another quote : " risheh drishtarthasya pritirbhavati aakhyanasamyuktaa" (Yaskacharya in Nirukta). There also confusion between religion and spirituality (what should be real content of a relion). A real religion is not a movement or organization. It is a personal thing. -- ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE Mon Feb 7 16:14:28 2000 From: schms060 at MAIL.UNI-MAINZ.DE (Sergei Schmalz) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 17:14:28 +0100 Subject: Asiatic Society Calcutta In-Reply-To: <200002071309.OAA00985@tiger.vscht.cz> Message-ID: <161227055787.23782.7950818970491082651.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > The Asiatic Society > 1, Park Street > Calcutta 700 006 > > www.indev.nic.in/asiatic > I am sorry to disturb, but on the Home Page of Asiatic Society Calcutta You've given their address has "Calcutta 700 016". Which one is correct: 700 006 or 700 016? With best regards, Sergei Schmalz. From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 8 04:28:57 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 20:28:57 -0800 Subject: Text of a Song in Praise of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227055797.23782.10460671529793888002.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In recent years I have noticed that a typical "Annual Sanskrit Day" function in Pune begins and/or ends with a song in praise of Sanskrit. The beginning words of the song are: pravahatAm samskRta mandAkinI... Can anyone on this list supply the text of this song, which I believe was composed by Professor Kashikar? (It is not very long). On one such occasion I suggested to the lady who sang it to make it available as an audio casette. If it is now so available where could I buy it? Thanks, S.Tilak, 4-642 Watt St. Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2K 2S5 (204) 669 4957 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Feb 8 02:10:40 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 21:10:40 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055791.23782.5994745673931587844.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I for one look forward to the articles in preparation from both Beatrice Reusch and Jonathan Silk on the topic of Oedipus in Sanskrit. As for the refs. cited by JS, the Ramanujan article was made familiar to me privately by another list member. I feel obliged to say publically how embarrassed I am not to have known either the Ramanujan or the Goldman articles, since one of the editors of the first [Dundes] and the author of the second were both teachers of mine. Yes, please, JS, forward the exact ref. to me. I myself have not been able to find Vedic tales that combine the significant elements of the Greek Oedipus myth. And so, like JS, I am inclined to think that the Indic parallels to it may not be genetically related [i.e., inherited]. There is something in the RV that very roughly and loosely resembles the riddle of the Sphinx [RV 10.117.8], but it does not offer a close enough match with the Greek, and it shows no awareness of other elements of the story. For example, the tale mentioned by R Banerjee does not seem to have enough of the significant elements of the Greek story to qualify as genetically related. But I would be pleased to be corrected by those who know better. George Thompson From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Feb 8 03:46:22 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 00 22:46:22 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055795.23782.14852644583836685584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/7/00 9:38:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: > I wonder if you know that some scholars link the Oedipus myth with > Egypt -- specifically Akhenaten and his family as well as the Thebes > and Sphinx motifs. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge No, I did not know this. But given the story as we have it, this would make sense. Please provide details, and references. Thank you [from myself, and on behalf of Anne Mahoney and interested Classicists on the other list, George Thompson From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Feb 8 02:30:57 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 02:30:57 +0000 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055793.23782.221247979012140130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> George Thompson wrote: > I myself have not been able to find Vedic tales that combine the significant > elements of the Greek Oedipus myth. And so, like JS, I am inclined to think > that the Indic parallels to it may not be genetically related [i.e., > inherited. I wonder if you know that some scholars link the Oedipus myth with Egypt -- specifically Akhenaten and his family as well as the Thebes and Sphinx motifs. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Feb 8 11:36:26 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 06:36:26 -0500 Subject: Text of a Song in Praise of Sanskrit In-Reply-To: <20000208042857.45626.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227055806.23782.18189084614814117217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This song was not composed by Professor Kashikar, but by Professor G.B. Palsule of Pune. I have heard this song many times, and most recently last December in Pune at a felicitation for Professor Palsule upon the publication of his recent Mahakaavya "Viira-Vainaayakam" on the life of the patriot leader Vinaayak D. Saavarkar. I will see if I can locate the text of the poem. Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 7 Feb 2000, Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > In recent years I have noticed that a typical "Annual Sanskrit Day" > function in Pune begins and/or ends with a song in praise of Sanskrit. The > beginning words of the song are: pravahatAm samskRta mandAkinI... > Can anyone on this list supply the text of this song, which I believe > was composed by Professor Kashikar? (It is not very long). On one such > occasion I suggested to the lady who sang it to make it available as an > audio casette. If it is now so available where could I buy it? > Thanks, > > S.Tilak, 4-642 Watt St. Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2K 2S5 > (204) 669 4957 > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Tue Feb 8 11:41:33 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 06:41:33 -0500 Subject: Text of a Song in Praise of Sanskrit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055807.23782.16151680042701685856.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here is the email address of Ramdas Palsule, Professor Palsule's son, in Pune, India. I am sure he can arrange to mail a copy of this poem to you. ramdaspalsule Madhav Deshpande On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > This song was not composed by Professor Kashikar, but by Professor G.B. > Palsule of Pune. I have heard this song many times, and most recently > last December in Pune at a felicitation for Professor Palsule upon the > publication of his recent Mahakaavya "Viira-Vainaayakam" on the life of > the patriot leader Vinaayak D. Saavarkar. I will see if I can locate the > text of the poem. > Madhav Deshpande > > On Mon, 7 Feb 2000, Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > > > In recent years I have noticed that a typical "Annual Sanskrit Day" > > function in Pune begins and/or ends with a song in praise of Sanskrit. The > > beginning words of the song are: pravahatAm samskRta mandAkinI... > > Can anyone on this list supply the text of this song, which I believe > > was composed by Professor Kashikar? (It is not very long). On one such > > occasion I suggested to the lady who sang it to make it available as an > > audio casette. If it is now so available where could I buy it? > > Thanks, > > > > S.Tilak, 4-642 Watt St. Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2K 2S5 > > (204) 669 4957 > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > From selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM Tue Feb 8 06:55:48 2000 From: selwyn at DTN.NTL.COM (L.S.Cousins) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 06:55:48 +0000 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <007a01bf71de$3fd70dc0$bd30893e@default> Message-ID: <161227055811.23782.9344592430722539792.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> This was done by Velikovsky. But I was not aware that it had been put forward seriously outside of the context of his entertaining but quite fanciful theories. Lance Cousins >I wonder if you know that some scholars link the Oedipus myth with >Egypt -- specifically Akhenaten and his family as well as the Thebes >and Sphinx motifs. > OXFORD, UK CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESSES: L.S.Cousins at nessie.mcc.ac.uk or selwyn at dtn.ntl.com From ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ Tue Feb 8 08:36:53 2000 From: ondracka at TIGER.VSCHT.CZ (Lubomir Ondracka) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 08:36:53 +0000 Subject: Asiatic Society Calcutta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055801.23782.4960766096888325630.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > > The Asiatic Society > > 1, Park Street > > Calcutta <700 006> 700 016 > > www.indev.nic.in/asiatic > > I am sorry to disturb, but on the Home Page of > Asiatic Society Calcutta You've given their > address has "Calcutta 700 016". > Which one is correct: 700 006 or 700 016? Sorry, 700 016 is correct. -- Lubomir Ondracka From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 8 14:20:08 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 09:20:08 -0500 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? In-Reply-To: <389FD673.62DD3791@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227055809.23782.16980698529232621304.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Prof. H.B. Dave: > at least in RigVeda and >YajurVeda, the meaning of the word Ashva is not "Horse" that is an animal. It >has entirely different meaning. Without access to that meaning any discussion >that we notice in this list is futile. May I ask: what is azva ? a mushroom? or an ass? MW. From kharper at LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU Tue Feb 8 17:22:20 2000 From: kharper at LMUMAIL.LMU.EDU (Katherine Harper) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 09:22:20 -0800 Subject: Prof. Teun Goudriaan Message-ID: <161227055817.23782.15342891083898992780.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Members: It is urgent that I contact Prof. Teun Goudriaan. If possible please supply me with a current address, an email, a fax number or a phone number. Thanking you in advance. Sincerely, Katherine Harper Loyola Marymount University From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 8 18:29:38 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 10:29:38 -0800 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <29.101b6bd.25d0d520@cs.com> Message-ID: <161227055822.23782.3819827152832054502.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I must confess that it is a bit startling to see that people interested in this topic seem to be somewhat unaware of what has been published on it. In any case three of my earlier articles in this area are: "Fathers, Sons, and Gurus: Oedipal Conflict in the Sanskrit Epics." Journal of Indian Philosophy. Vol.6, 1978, pp. 325-92. "Matricide, Renunciation, and Compensation in the Legends of Two Warrior Heroes of the Sanskrit Epics," in Proceedings of the Stockholm Conference Seminar in Indological Studies. Indologica Taurinensia Vol 10, 1982, pp. 117-31. "Transsexualism, Gender and Anxiety in Traditional India." Journal of the American Oriental Society. Vol.113,. no. 3. 1993 pp. 374-401. I would also suggest that people have a look at Obeyesekere's interesting "The Work of Culture" U. of Chicago Press 1990 especially Lectures Two and Three, "Oedipus: The Paradigm and its Hindu Rebirth" (pp.71-139) and "The Parricide in Buddhist History" (pp. 143-214) and, for a recent collection of psychoanalytically oriented studies of Indian culture, "Vishnu on Freud's Desk" Edited by J. Kripal and T. G. Vaidyanathan, OUP ( Delhi) 1999. I too of course look forward to the forthcoming pieces mentioned by Silk and Reusch. I will be especially interested to see how the study of Buddhist texts "disprove" findings made ( largely but not entirely) on non-Buddhist sources. >I for one look forward to the articles in preparation from both Beatrice >Reusch and Jonathan Silk on the topic of Oedipus in Sanskrit. > >As for the refs. cited by JS, the Ramanujan article was made familiar to me >privately by another list member. I feel obliged to say publically how >embarrassed I am not to have known either the Ramanujan or the Goldman >articles, since one of the editors of the first [Dundes] and the author of >the second were both teachers of mine. Yes, please, JS, forward the exact >ref. to me. > >I myself have not been able to find Vedic tales that combine the significant >elements of the Greek Oedipus myth. And so, like JS, I am inclined to think >that the Indic parallels to it may not be genetically related [i.e., >inherited]. There is something in the RV that very roughly and loosely >resembles the riddle of the Sphinx [RV 10.117.8], but it does not offer a >close enough match with the Greek, and it shows no awareness of other >elements of the story. For example, the tale mentioned by R Banerjee does not >seem to have enough of the significant elements of the Greek story to qualify >as genetically related. > >But I would be pleased to be corrected by those who know better. > >George Thompson Dr. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Professor of Sanskrit and Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 3048 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 8 05:57:28 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 11:27:28 +0530 Subject: Text of a Song in Praise of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227055799.23782.18009629647420278807.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Shri. Tilak, The beautiful song you mentioned was composed by Dr. G. B. Palsule many years ago when he was working in Deccan College. It has been a practice in Pune and elsewhere to sing this song in praise of the Sanskrit language on the occasion of the National Sanskrit Day. I shall request one of those ladies who usually sing the song to prepare an audio cassette and send it to you along with the text. Shrikant Bahulkar Director B. L. Centre of Sanskrit and Asian Studies Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapeeth Pune 411 030 India Shrinivas Tilak wrote: > In recent years I have noticed that a typical "Annual Sanskrit Day" > function in Pune begins and/or ends with a song in praise of Sanskrit. The > beginning words of the song are: pravahatAm samskRta mandAkinI... > Can anyone on this list supply the text of this song, which I believe > was composed by Professor Kashikar? (It is not very long). On one such > occasion I suggested to the lady who sang it to make it available as an > audio casette. If it is now so available where could I buy it? > Thanks, > > S.Tilak, 4-642 Watt St. Winnipeg, MB, Canada R2K 2S5 > (204) 669 4957 > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Feb 8 17:26:33 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 12:26:33 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055813.23782.6300088704896641173.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Just wanted to point out some similarities. A son is born to shiva and parvati when she playfully covers his third eye and the world is engulfed in darkness. Andhaka is born in this period of blindness/darkness( hence the name ) After his freakish birth and because of his mishappen appearance he is abandoned by his parents. He grows up and becomes a powerful king and becomes handsome. He sees pArvati in a chance encounter, wants to make her his queen and comes into conflict with his own father. He never knows that shiva and parvati are his own parents, till after his defeat. He is now filled with remorse. Shiva impales andhaka on his trident and holds him up to the sun to burn away his sins and he shrivels back to his former self. In both stories there are obvious parallels including repentance and suffering. In the greek myth oedipus goes blind. Is that and the name andhaka a coincidence? I dont know if there are other versions of this myth. regards R banerjee From LGoehler at AOL.COM Tue Feb 8 17:44:14 2000 From: LGoehler at AOL.COM (Lars Goehler) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 12:44:14 -0500 Subject: Publication announcement Message-ID: <161227055818.23782.2966950995165758712.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> - Publication announcement - The German philosophical journal "Deutsche Zeitschrift fuer Philosophie" published an special issue (Berlin, 47. Jahrgang 4/99) mainly dedicated to topics of Indian Phillosophy. Conributions (some of them elsewhere published and now translated into German): Amartya Sen: Indische Traditionen und westliche Imagination Javeed Alam: Aneignung der Tradition Daya Krishna: Drei Mythen ueber indische Philosophie J. N. Mohanty: Wider die Klischees ueber indische Philosophie L. Goehler: Tradition und Innovation in der fruehen indischen Philosophie K.C. Bhattacharya: Politische Selbstbestimmung in den Ideen The journal can be ordered at: R. Oldenbourg Verlag Zeitschriftenservice Postfach 801360 81613 Muenchen Germany Fax: + 49 30 / 47 88 93 57 vertrieb-zs at verlag.oldenbourg.de the somewhat irritating webpage: http://www.oldenbourg.de/akademie-verlag/ price: 39 DM (ca.US$.19,-) Lars Goehler From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Feb 8 08:40:20 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 14:10:20 +0530 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? Message-ID: <161227055804.23782.12120977310507217027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > In the Rgvedic horse sacrifice as it appears in RV 1.162 the horse was > killed with an axe (1.162.9), parts of it are explicitly eaten (cf. RV > 1.162.12: y/e c/Arvato mAMsabhikS/Am upAsat/e; ). In the azvamedha of the > zrauta-sUtras the horse is suffocated, and much attention is paid to the > burning of parts (offering to the gods) after the ceremonies with the queen. > Eating is not prominent (cf. Dumont's Asvamedha 1927, consommation of iDA). > In the description of the azvamedha in the mahAbhArata mention is made of > the smelling of horse meat by the sacrificer (yudhiSThira) (Dumont p. 387). > For some reflections on a gradual receding in importance of actual eating in > Vedic ritual in general (not specifically the horse sacrifice) cf. > Heesterman, The Broken World of Sacrifice, Chicago Univ. Press p. 189ff. > JH > Jan E.M. Houben, > Kern Institute, Leiden University, > P.O. Box 9515, NL-2300 RA Leiden > jhouben at RULLET.LeidenUniv.NL > -----Original Message----- > From: Haridas C > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Sunday, February 06, 2000 5:35 PM > Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? > > >Dear listmembers, > > > >Was the flesh of the sacrificed horse eaten or not? > > > >Thanks in advance. > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > >http://im.yahoo.com I would like to ask a few questions to Scholars in this list. 1. Most of the traditions in India and eating habits are alive even today right from Vedic times. How is it that eating flesh of the so called "Sacrificial Horse" is not there? 2. Apart from text of Vedas and some Puranas (which derive from Vedas) are there any prper indications that Horse flesh was eaten by Indo-Aryans? I am constrained to ask these questions because, at least in RigVeda and YajurVeda, the meaning of the word Ashva is not "Horse" that is an animal. It has entirely different meaning. Without access to that meaning any discussion that we notice in this list is futile. Sorry if I sound arrogant. All of you are great schoalrs, but I find you are going astray. -- ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From athr at LOC.GOV Tue Feb 8 20:38:41 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 15:38:41 -0500 Subject: Text of a Song in Praise of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227055825.23782.10448701063162857292.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have a recording of this made back in 1978/9. I can't remember the name of the female vocalist who sang it but it may be in my accompanying notes. Allen Thrasher From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Feb 8 21:19:48 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 16:19:48 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055826.23782.11937061223409706296.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> g> I must confess that it is a bit startling to see that people interested in this topic seem to be somewhat unaware of what has been published on it. rb> Its startling too to think that childrens illustrated books might have relevant information not covered in reputed journals. I am curious to know if andhakas story is ever referred to in the context of an indian oedipus. I have heard folktales which deal with the whole guru, young wife favourite disciple, jealousy-infatuation axis. They did not strike me as being especially oedipal. I guess I should read up and am probably speaking out of context. What is often glossed over about the oedipus myth is that he did things unknowingly. Most people only hear about freuds intepretation of oedipus which is over-rated. Rather than being a representation of a secret desire to mate with a parent and kill the other it can be looked at as just the opposite, a representation of a behavioural check which is hard-wired in most animals. A successful parent is a good representation of a potential mate to be looked for in later life and a parent can provide a vital bit of imprinting or reinforcement for an offsprings reproductive success. However there needs to be a check/mechanism which makes incestuous matings highly improbable. Even lab rats exhibit such preferences. I am digressing from indology so I will stop. regards R Banerjee From GthomGt at CS.COM Tue Feb 8 21:39:26 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 16:39:26 -0500 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055829.23782.6210199390599360554.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/8/00 1:27:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU writes: > I must confess that it is a bit startling to see that people interested in > this topic seem to be somewhat unaware of what has been published on it. > Just to clarify. The person whose question I posted to the list was intereested in evidence suggesting that Oedipus in Sanskrit might be cognate with Oedipus in Greek [not the names, of course, but the stories, or perhaps rather elements of the stories]. Evidence, in other words, suggesting that the story may be Indo-European. She did not express interest in Oedipal conflict in Sanskrit. Nor have I. My main interest in this is to forward references to her, as I had been asked to do. George Thompson From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Tue Feb 8 17:20:47 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 17:20:47 +0000 Subject: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055815.23782.478842075063077521.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Lance Cousins wrote: > This was done by Velikovsky. But I was not aware that it had been put > forward seriously outside of the context of his entertaining but > quite fanciful theories. While it is true that some of Velikovsky's theories can now be discarded as fanciful but perhaps not all his ideas need be dismissed so lightly -- his book on Akhenaten and Oedipus is fairly straightforward and free from some of his other more outre theories. You may be unaware of the events that transpired in the 50s that resulted in his being hounded out of academic circles by a cabal of conservative anti-semitic scholars who did their best to discredit his theories. A bit reminiscent of AIT contraversies. He wasn't a complete lunatic but was actually one of the leading founders of the University of Jerusalem. It seems that sometimes the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater ! It is also noteworthy that several of his key ideas have become somewhat more respectable -- the asteriod collisions causing the demise of the dinosaurs and more importantly his arguments for recalibrating Egyptian and hence most of Middle Eastern Chronology -- an area that is also of relevence to Indoology scholars. You must be aware that there are several scholars who have argued the need for extensive revision of Egyptian chronology though often without acknowledging Velikovsky's contribution. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 8 18:07:13 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 00 18:07:13 +0000 Subject: Velikovsky (was: Re: Oedipus in Sanskrit?) In-Reply-To: <006b01bf725b$0db63aa0$e1d4883e@default> Message-ID: <161227055820.23782.6724165404140137783.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Stephen Hodge wrote: > It is also noteworthy that several of his key ideas have become > somewhat more respectable -- the asteriod collisions causing the > demise of the dinosaurs and more importantly his arguments for Martin Gardner, in his entertaining book _Fads & fallacies in the name of science_ (Dover, 1957), pp.28 ff. gives a fairly full account of Velikovsky's ideas and orientation, and points out that he was not the first to propose an asteroid collision as the explanation for various Old Testament cataclysms. William Whiston did this in 1696. Several other authors following Whiston took up the theme. Velikovsky was just the most recent to have written about the idea, presenting it as a new insight. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 9 12:31:55 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 04:31:55 -0800 Subject: Text of a Song in Praise of Sanskrit Message-ID: <161227055841.23782.15096219192853636480.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My thanks to Professors Deshpande (for identifying the composer of the song) and Bahulkar (for offering to send it on a casette). I am looking forward to it. Thanks also to Allen Thrasher for his help. ST ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rmanring at INDIANA.EDU Wed Feb 9 10:04:36 2000 From: rmanring at INDIANA.EDU (Rebecca Manring) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 05:04:36 -0500 Subject: Obituary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055839.23782.982330632854219371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Colleagues, Many of you will have already heard of the passing of Professor Wilfred Cantwell Smith on February 7, in Toronto. You will find a detailed obituary, with information on memorial services and where to send condolence messages, at http://www.ageofsig.org/people/wcsmith/ Rebecca Manring India Studies Indiana University From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Feb 9 08:17:00 2000 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 08:17:00 +0000 Subject: Sarasvati Sindhu Age Message-ID: <161227055832.23782.3207522420708292202.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Indology members may like to visit http://communities.msn.com/sarasvati or http://sarasvati.listbot.com (View Archives, Message #91) The webpage: Sarasvati Sindhu Age at either site contains a book review by Prof. KV Raman of the monumental work by Prof. Gregory L. Possehl, volume II in the epic quartet titled: INDUS AGE: THE BEGINNINGS. The brilliant book is indeed a significant contribution to the study of one of the greatest civilizations of humankind. Hopefully, the missling links in chronology with the Proto-European and later Avestan will unravel in due course. Regards. Dr. S. Kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Wed Feb 9 14:07:50 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 09:07:50 -0500 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055844.23782.3043177985283043657.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The current discussion about Azvamedha sacrifice reminds me of an incident a few years ago. Someone from Chicago called me asking me to contribute money for a performance of Azvamedha they were going to conduct in Chicago. I was shocked and thrilled at the same time, and I asked the person how they were going to deal with sacrificing the horse. The person was outraged at my question. He said there was no reason to kill a horse. The swamy who had organized this Azvamedha explained to his followers that this sacrifice was to be performed so that the medhaa "intelligence" of the children of the community will be as swift as an azva "horse". They were going to recite the holy Gaayatrii mantra several thousand times and make offerings of ghee into the fire. This was the true Azvamedha. Suffice it to say that this interpretation had saved the life of a horse. Best, Madhav Deshpande From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Feb 9 18:35:46 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 10:35:46 -0800 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055851.23782.14619657094104044728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, just on the anecdotal side then, we should perhaps note that the reasonably posh and very non-veg restaurant in the Blue Diamond Hotel in Pune is (or at least was a few years back) named "Ashwamedha" which struck me as an odd name for an eatery. Having dined there more than once I am now, however, relieved by Madhav's information that it was merely "brain food" they were serving me. Bon appetit. >The current discussion about Azvamedha sacrifice reminds me of an incident >a few years ago. Someone from Chicago called me asking me to contribute >money for a performance of Azvamedha they were going to conduct in >Chicago. I was shocked and thrilled at the same time, and I asked the >person how they were going to deal with sacrificing the horse. The person >was outraged at my question. He said there was no reason to kill a horse. >The swamy who had organized this Azvamedha explained to his followers that >this sacrifice was to be performed so that the medhaa "intelligence" of >the children of the community will be as swift as an azva "horse". They >were going to recite the holy Gaayatrii mantra several thousand times and >make offerings of ghee into the fire. This was the true Azvamedha. >Suffice it to say that this interpretation had saved the life of a horse. >Best, > Madhav Deshpande Dr. R. P. Goldman Sarah Kailath Professor in India Studies Professor of Sanskrit and Chairman, Center for South Asia Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 From torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT Wed Feb 9 09:43:48 2000 From: torella at AXRMA.UNIROMA1.IT (Raffaele Torella) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 10:43:48 +0100 Subject: Prof. Teun Goudriaan In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000208092010.00ad4ba0@lmumail.lmu.edu> Message-ID: <161227055837.23782.14537075718293966270.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Dear Members: >It is urgent that I contact Prof. Teun Goudriaan. If possible please supply >me with >a current address, an email, a fax number or a phone number. >Thanking you in advance. >Sincerely, >Katherine Harper >Loyola Marymount University Drift 15, 3512 BR UTRECHT (The Netherlands) tel.030/392123 (still valid?). To my knowledge, he has no email. 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Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 415 bytes Desc: not available URL: From christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU Wed Feb 9 00:27:05 2000 From: christian.coseru at ANU.EDU.AU (Christian Coseru) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 11:27:05 +1100 Subject: Asiatic Society Calcutta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055830.23782.12770490658369491720.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Sergei, The correct pin is 700 016 Christian At 05:14 PM 2/7/00 +0100, you wrote: >> The Asiatic Society >> 1, Park Street >> Calcutta 700 006 >> >> www.indev.nic.in/asiatic >> > >I am sorry to disturb, but on the Home Page of >Asiatic Society Calcutta You've given their >address has "Calcutta 700 016". >Which one is correct: 700 006 or 700 016? > >With best regards, >Sergei Schmalz. > > From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Wed Feb 9 18:13:53 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 13:13:53 -0500 Subject: flute Message-ID: <161227055849.23782.1554246315054730532.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/flutes.html 9000 year old chinese flutes can still be played. It sounds a little wavering because the player is being careful so as not to damage it. The notes produced are almost indistinguishable from the scales used today. Have any musical instruments been excavated from ancient indian sites ? regards R Banerjee From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Wed Feb 9 13:38:01 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 13:38:01 +0000 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? In-Reply-To: <38A1286E.F686249A@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227055843.23782.12210753911090308728.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Dave, I do not wish to be too rough, but I cannot help noticing that you fall into a category precisely defined in the "Scope" document that governs the running of this list. You announce yourself as a person with a professional background in computer science, but you give no evidence of a university-level engagement with classical Indian studies, or a familiarity with the professional journals and publications of the field.. May I suggest that this is an uncertain platform from which to launch a major project of re-interpreting the meaning of the Veda? (I would also ask you (and all members) to keep your postings to the recommended length of approximately 2k.) I note that you work in Nadiad. There is a fine collection of Sanskrit manuscripts in your town, in the Dahilaxmi Library. Have you found interesting texts there? -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Wed Feb 9 08:42:23 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 14:12:23 +0530 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? Message-ID: <161227055834.23782.17488743161368139637.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Michael Witzel wrote: > >Prof. H.B. Dave: > > > at least in RigVeda and > >YajurVeda, the meaning of the word Ashva is not "Horse" that is an animal. It > >has entirely different meaning. Without access to that meaning any discussion > >that we notice in this list is futile. > > May I ask: what is azva ? > > a mushroom? or an ass? > > MW. Neither. Please bear with me. I shall try to explain. If you are ready to print a PostScript file (about 20 pages) I can send you my paper "A New Approach to Interpretation of Vedas" presented at 39th All India Oriental Conference, October 1998, Baroda, India, which should explain. It contains all Sanskrit terms in Devanagari script. -- Himanshu -- ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Wed Feb 9 22:14:31 2000 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 14:14:31 -0800 Subject: Current address of Donald Allan Nelson Message-ID: <161227055855.23782.2206434064368252659.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List members, Donald Allan Nelson completed a Ph.D. dissertation on the following topic at the University of Chicago in 1974: _The "Brhatkatha" : a reconstruction from the "Brhatkathaslokasamgraha," "Perunkatai," and "Vasudevahimdi_. He is said to have left the field of South Asian studies a few years later. Can anyone give me his current address or the address of a person likely to know his whereabouts? ashok aklujkar Dept of Asian Studies University of British Columbia Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6T 1Z2 From cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU Wed Feb 9 19:27:13 2000 From: cardona at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (George Cardona) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 14:27:13 -0500 Subject: Augment i and DhAtupAThas In-Reply-To: <000101bf7327$6dadf8e0$e349abd4@emiliano> Message-ID: <161227055853.23782.9697514846857769113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Dear Sirs, I'm working on a research about the union-vowel (or >augment) "i" of the Sanskrit verb. For that reason I need to know which >roots of the words are, according to the Indian grammarians, seT, aniT or >veT. I don't want to refer to the lists reported on the most important >Western grammars: I better wish to have first-hand datas from hindU >grammarians, mainly from DhAtupAThas of the different grammar schools. As >for PAN, I don't have any problem because the difference is clearly put >in evidence by a particular anubandha. I wonder if also the other Dh.P's >(the non-PANinlya-s ones, mainly), have this information. Pasule's >synopsis (1955) lacks that data, reported in Hill & Harrison (1991) >instead, in which I also read that Jainendra-Dh.P. contains this >information (Devanandin himself created a perfect anubandha). What about >the other Dh.P.'s? I would be grateful if you could also suggest me some >Western works on that subject. Thank you in advance Emiliano Bianchi, >Studente dell'Universita' degli Studi di Milano You might start with Paa.nini 7.2.10: ekaaca upade's'nudaattaat and commentaries thereon. Thus, the Mahaabhaa.sya (kielhorn III.285-6) lists the bases that are anudaatta and the Kaa'sikaa and later commentaries elaborate. In addition, the Dhaatupaa.thas contain statements for separate subsections, saying that such and such are se.t, ani.t or optionally either. There are good editions of these available. Sincerely, George Cardona From nybia at TIN.IT Wed Feb 9 17:14:31 2000 From: nybia at TIN.IT (Emiliano Bianchi) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 00 18:14:31 +0100 Subject: Augment i and DhAtupAThas Message-ID: <161227055847.23782.18097444845431929652.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Sirs, I'm working on a research about the union-vowel (or augment) "i" of the Sanskrit verb. For that reason I need to know which roots of the words are, according to the Indian grammarians, seT, aniT or veT. I don't want to refer to the lists reported on the most important Western grammars: I better wish to have first-hand datas from hindU grammarians, mainly from DhAtupAThas of the different grammar schools. As for PAN, I don't have any problem because the difference is clearly put in evidence by a particular anubandha. I wonder if also the other Dh.P's (the non-PANinlya-s ones, mainly), have this information. Pasule's synopsis (1955) lacks that data, reported in Hill & Harrison (1991) instead, in which I also read that Jainendra-Dh.P. contains this information (Devanandin himself created a perfect anubandha). What about the other Dh.P.'s? I would be grateful if you could also suggest me some Western works on that subject. Thank you in advance Emiliano Bianchi, Studente dell'Universita' degli Studi di Milano -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu Feb 10 01:28:09 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 00 02:28:09 +0100 Subject: Prof. Teun Goudriaan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055856.23782.1230514482541679008.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 9 Feb 00, at 10:43, Raffaele Torella wrote: > >Dear Members: > >It is urgent that I contact Prof. Teun Goudriaan. [...] > > Drift 15, 3512 BR UTRECHT (The Netherlands) tel.030/392123 (still > valid?). To my knowledge, he has no email. The Instituut voor oosterse talen of the Rijkuniversiteit Utrecht still exists, but the Indological section (where Dr. Goudriaan worked) was closed down several years ago due to the general decline in support for the study of Indian culture, and Goudriaan retired. Former colleagues of his working in Leiden should be able to say how he can be reached. RZ From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 10 16:49:13 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 00 11:49:13 -0500 Subject: Current address of Donald Allan Nelson Message-ID: <161227055864.23782.9715982354262993804.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ashok, You might email the U. Chicago South Asian Language and Area Center: south-asia-outreach at uchicago.edu and they could ask his friends in the faculty or perhaps get it from the alumni office. There is an online UC alumni directory but it can only be searched by alumni. There are thousands of Donald A. Nelsons in the FirstSearch online home telephone directory but no Donald Allan Nelson. Don moved to DC around 1983 but I haven't seen him since about 1985. There is one Donald Nelson in the Virginia suburbs but his answering machine message (703-494-8282) doesn't sound like Donald A. but has an Appalachian accent. Allen Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Thu Feb 10 07:56:38 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 00 13:26:38 +0530 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? Message-ID: <161227055858.23782.16141261760268570217.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Dear Prof. Dave, > > I do not wish to be too rough, but I cannot help noticing that you fall > into a category precisely defined in the "Scope" document that governs the > running of this list. You announce yourself as a person with a > professional background in computer science, I am B. E. (Electronics), M.Tech (Electronics) with teaching and research experience at IIT/Kharagpur (19 years), L.D.College of Eng (9 years) and DDIT (15 years). I also teach Meditation and Spiritual Studies for several years now. I spent one year in Japan doing research in Computer Organization. > but you give no evidence of a > university-level engagement with classical Indian studies, To study Vedas do you require a modern University degree or study? Classical Sanskrit literature has little in common with the contents of RigVeda. > or a > familiarity with the professional journals and publications of the field.. For last 30 years or so, I had been studying Upanishads, RigVeda, Nirukta, BrahmasUtra, and other scriptural texts like ShrimadBhagavad. I do not understand what is meant by "professional " journal in this field (i.e. of Vedic studies). My experience is that one can go quite a bit astray by following what others have done. > May I suggest that this is an uncertain platform from which to launch a > major project of re-interpreting the meaning of the Veda? I very very respectfully beg to differ from you. RigVeda is a book of Knowlegde about Knowledge. It is possibly the first anthology of technical papers (Suktas) in the world about Information and Cognitive Science, and how human brain deals with information and knowledge; how are abstract concepts developed upto and including the concepts like God, religion, sin, Bhakti, Creation, the way brain works at several levels of abstraction, what happens under Superconscious state, etc. I think I am very well suited for the job, better than several we had in past. I have already interpreted according to my scheme (sorry, not really mine but our ancient Rishis, as they should have been understood) about 3000 Richas out of some 10,000 in RigVeda. I have presented a major paper at 39th All India Oriental Conference (Vedic Studies Section) October 1998 at Baroda, which was discussed very well and well received. Interpreting Vedas is not monopoly of either our Dharmacharyas or Western Vedic Scholars. (Again sorry to be a bit blunt here.) There is one more qualification I can claim, but it is a bit difficult to explain in a scholarly list. I can quote several Richas in support of the above, but it will cross 2K limit. My interpretation is totally internally consistent, and unifies (Samanvaya) differing interpretations. > (I would also ask you (and all members) to keep your postings to the > recommended length of approximately 2k.) By mistake I sent out HTML mode document which may have increased the length, in future (if you people allow me to be on this list !) the length will be taken care of. > I note that you work in Nadiad. There is a fine collection of Sanskrit > manuscripts in your town, in the Dahilaxmi Library. Have you found > interesting texts there? From Dahilaxmi Library, I used Nirukta with Durga's commentary and AtharvaVeda Samhita. There are a number of menuscripts, but they are in a sorry state. I, as a recently added member of managing committee, am persuading the management to seek external help for preservation. I have also computerized the library. I have my own library, of course. > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. I became member of this list because I sincerely think that I have something to contribute. I have no axe to grind. It seems I have ruffled a few feathers, is it so? -- Himanshu From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Thu Feb 10 14:00:39 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 00 14:00:39 +0000 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? In-Reply-To: <38A26F36.D1143E2A@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227055860.23782.1842426030142879104.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Himanshu Dave wrote: > To study Vedas do you require a modern University degree or study? Yes, of course, if you are intending to participate in international scholarship on the subject. And that is the orientation of this list. > For last 30 years or so, I had been studying Upanishads, RigVeda, Nirukta, > BrahmasUtra, and other scriptural texts like ShrimadBhagavad. I do not > understand what is meant by "professional " journal in this field (i.e. of > Vedic studies). My experience is that one can go quite a bit astray by > following what others have done. In your own field, Computer Science, you are surely aware of a number of serious, peer-reviewed journals in which the work of leading scholars is published. The ACM and similar bodies publish these. Someone wanting to make a valuable contribution to computer science would need to remain current with new research findings, and to be aware of recent developments. It is just the same in Indian studies. Journals such as the JRAS, JAOS, ABORI, ZDMG, IIJ, JIP, etc. etc. are household words to most of the members of this discussion list, and many of us are regular subscribers to several of them, as well as being members of professional associations such as the IIAS, RAS, DMG, AAS, AOS, etc. The study of ancient India is a professionalized field, and has been since the nineteenth century. To claim that you have read some Sanskrit texts and that you have invented your own interpretation and that you don't want to read other people's books because you may be led astray is simply not acceptable in a scholarly milieu. I'm sure you would not accept an attitude like this from an undergraduate in Computer Science. You have obviously found great personal inspiration from your acquaintance with Sanskrit literature, and that is a valuable thing which you should of course hold on to. But it is not the same thing as the academic, historically-oriented study of Sanskrit literature at the university level. Your strong sense of conviction that you know something that scholars of long-standing have missed should be a warning light to you that you are not participating in the same field of endeavour. All these points are raised in the "Scope of Indology" document on our website, to which I again respectfully direct your attention. You have not ruffled feathers; it is just that all the other birds are in a different tree, I'm afraid. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From mayer-koenig at BLUEWIN.DE Thu Feb 10 14:00:19 2000 From: mayer-koenig at BLUEWIN.DE (=?utf-8?Q?Birgit_Mayer-K=C3=B6nig?=) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 00 15:00:19 +0100 Subject: Prof. Teun Goudriaan Message-ID: <161227055862.23782.16011789375595304605.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> To my knowledge, the address of Dr. Teun Goudriaan is Hondsrug 123 3524 BW Utrecht The Netherlands Regards, Birgit Mayer-K?nig > The Instituut voor oosterse talen of the Rijkuniversiteit Utrecht still > exists, but the Indological section (where Dr. Goudriaan worked) > was closed down several years ago due to the general decline in > support for the study of Indian culture, and Goudriaan retired. > Former colleagues of his working in Leiden should be able to say > how he can be reached. > > RZ From suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Thu Feb 10 19:43:28 2000 From: suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Arun Gupta) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 00 19:43:28 +0000 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055866.23782.8687727843105726370.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Upanishads themselves tell the reader to find an enlightened teacher; studying the text is not enough. Eknath Easwaran is no more, but he would have qualified as one, in my opinion. I do not deny the uses of getting the historical context, the meaning read into the text over the ages, etc. right. It is important. But one would miss a lot. The boxer analogy was probably not the best. Her is another try : the Upanishads are like a guide book (in Sanskrit) that say -- there is a mountain over there, it is worth climbing, the view from the top is phenomenal. You can mull over the text all you want. But to get to the view you have to try climbing the mountain. Perhaps the historical study can help you decide whether you want to try or not. But should you try, the person who has been on the climb himself is preferable to the translator of the guide book. -arun gupta From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Feb 11 12:02:22 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 07:02:22 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. In-Reply-To: <38A3F141.D4298A26@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227055872.23782.2283503715200029629.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While I sympathize with those seeking spiritual enlightenment from the Upanizads and other similar texts such as the Bhagavadgita, the assumption on the part of the advocates of spirituality that some spiritual master knows the one and the only true spiritual meaning of the Upanizads is not justified by the historical experience of the Indian philosophical tradition. Just look at the various traditional interpretations of the Upanizads and the BG. They all vehemently differ from each other not only in their spiritual understanding, but in their philological understanding of these texts. Whether the text was to be read as sa aatmaa, tat tvam asi (Zankara), or sa aatmaa atat tvam asi (as done by Madhva), involves not only spiritual issues, but also philological issues. The traditional authors are not "historically" oriented as modern scholars are, and yet they are not just spiritually oriented. They are skilled philologists. In contrast with modern advocates of undifferentiated spirituality where anything goes, the Indian tradition itself had a healthy dose of scepticism about all these traditional authorities: vedaa.h pramaa.nam zrutayo vibhinnaa.h naiko munir yasya vaca.h pramaa.nam / dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhaayaam mahaajano yena gata.h sa panthaa.h // Given that the tradition itself says things like "naiko munir yasya vaca.h pramaa.nam", and kapilo yadi sarvajn~a.h ka.naado neti kaa pramaa / ubhau tau yadi sarvajn~au matabhedas tayo.h katham // any hope that some claimant to spirituality knows the true meaning of these texts is utterly in vain. A more realistic approach to the tradition would be to look at the interpreters as each one trying his best at a justifiable interpretation, and there is no reason to eliminate the modern interpreters from that class. Madhav From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Fri Feb 11 17:53:13 2000 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 09:53:13 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Message-ID: <161227055884.23782.15646311822399517153.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The problem with post-Vivekananda spirituality is that it deliberately ignores the serious differences on all core issues between the major schools of Vedanta and other systems of Indian thought. While Raamaanuja felt no shame in authoring his Zataduu.sa.nii "hundred faults with the doctrine of Maayaavaada", a modern visiting Swamy blandly told me that all schools of Vedanta teach the same thing and that there was no more any reason to study the differences between these schools. [Krishna Kalale] Incidentally, Zataduusanii was written by Vedanta Desika a post Ramanuja (visistadvaitin). Whatever it may be I did not get your point as to "the shame" issue. What do you mean by that? Krishna Kalale From subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 11 16:05:02 2000 From: subrahmanyas at HOTMAIL.COM (Subrahmanya S.) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 10:05:02 -0600 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Message-ID: <161227055876.23782.9211775029042824515.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The posting by Madhav Deshpande indicates the conflicting logic that "modern historically oriented" scholars use in Indology. > >The traditional authors are not "historically" oriented >as modern scholars are, and yet they are not just spiritually oriented. >They are skilled philologists. >In contrast with modern advocates of undifferentiated >spirituality where anything goes, the Indian tradition >itself had a healthy dose of scepticism about all these >traditional authorities: > The skepticism should be applied to theories peddled by modern "historically oriented" scholars as well. Also, if the traditional scholars were not historically oriented then their works also may not be historically oriented!. So what good is it to use ONLY the "historically oriented" method to understand such texts. In essence you are admitting to using wrong units for measuring and understanding the texts - that is a major flaw in your method. While I am all for honest historically oriented study of India, what currently passes off as scholarship in Indology is merely Europeanist ideology. That is why Indology has had Aryan noses, Aryan languages and now Witzel has 'managed' to find Aryan chariot panzers. A process is now underway to changing Aryan and Indo-European to mean more than just language. While Indology has influenced Indian politics over the last hundred years it has very little to do with actual Indian history before colonisation and a lot more to do with European politics and identity. To understand Indology, one has to study European politics and academia over the past 200 years. Subrahmanya ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Fri Feb 11 18:05:58 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 10:05:58 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Message-ID: <161227055889.23782.7127105627095665539.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Krishna Kalale wrote: > Incidentally, Zataduusanii was written by Vedanta > Desika a post Ramanuja > (visistadvaitin). Whatever it may be I did not get > your point as to "the > shame" issue. What do you mean by that? > Well Krishna, if all schools of vedanta said the same thing, as the modern swamiji's and as the Hindutva-vadi homogenizers of India would like us to believe, then an acharya of old might have been expected to be too ashamed or embarrassed to write a polemical tract criticising another school of vedanta. But that was not the case. Not only polemical tracts were written; serious replies to these tracts were written too. This is clear from the life and works of Sri Venkatanatha, Mahacharya, Srinivasa et al. Warm Regards, LS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From tarekwani at USA.COM Fri Feb 11 16:50:04 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 11:50:04 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads Message-ID: <161227055878.23782.5004836142603465444.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Subrahmanya makes an excellent point regarding the lack of critical inquiry within the Indological community. A historical basis to the study of texts is of course required, but it cannot be done by making simplistic assumptions about ancient society. Scholars of other areas have shifted paradigms and incorporated knowledge from archaeology and anthropology in their analysis. But not so Indologists. A slavish devotion to philology's 19th century models and a sense of self-righteousness has created not only wonders such as Witzel's panzer divisions but whole published volumes that `decipher' every Indus text! I would urge that courses on logic and scientific method should be made compulsory for Indological students and professors. To speak of the azvamedha rite, for example: How do we know for sure that there did not exist several schools of thought, some of which took it literally and some others more adhyAtmically? How about the evolution of these ideas? Thus Caraka S., 19th adhyAya, says that originally pazus were not slaughtered in ritual, and this practice came later. -TW --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Feb 11 16:52:59 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 11:52:59 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. In-Reply-To: <20000211160502.42217.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227055880.23782.14769689289601918235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> S. Subrahmanya's recent response assumes that the modern historical scholarship is monolothic. For those who keep in touch with it, this is far from the truth. Secondarily, while the classical authors are ahistorical in their approach, is no reason for us to disregard history of thought. We can do so only in deliberate ignorance. The problem with post-Vivekananda spirituality is that it deliberately ignores the serious differences on all core issues between the major schools of Vedanta and other systems of Indian thought. While Raamaanuja felt no shame in authoring his Zataduu.sa.nii "hundred faults with the doctrine of Maayaavaada", a modern visiting Swamy blandly told me that all schools of Vedanta teach the same thing and that there was no more any reason to study the differences between these schools. If such spiritual orientation is to guide the academic study of Sanskrit, we may as well close down the universities and join the Swamis in their anything goes movements. Madhav Deshpande From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 11 20:53:22 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 12:53:22 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055899.23782.10543873744786986068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >any hope that some claimant to spirituality knows the true meaning of >these texts is utterly in vain. A more realistic approach to the >tradition would be to look at the interpreters as each one trying his best >at a justifiable interpretation, and there is no reason to eliminate the >modern interpreters from that class. Hear, hear! The only problem with the modern "anything goes" school is that most of its proponents forget yuktiyuktam vacah graahyam baalaadapi ;sukaadapi | yuktihiinam vacas tyaajyam v.rddhaadapi ;sukaadapi || Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From yogacara_assoc at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 11 18:14:04 2000 From: yogacara_assoc at HOTMAIL.COM (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 13:14:04 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenuredIndologists. Message-ID: <161227055887.23782.2089308499778026204.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> What "Subrahmanya S." overlooks in his epistemological critique of academic indology is that he cannot criticise indologists for focusing on historical issues to the detriment of 'traditional values and styles of reading', and then turn around and make his own insupportable historical assertions. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Traditional Indian methods of reading as well as the traditional sense of lineage and history of ideas are indeed at odds with modern methods, as are traditional vs. modern methods of etymology, etc., but each method has its strengths and weaknesses. One may criticize a modern indologist for paying more attention to historical issues when reading a text than to the inner significance of the text (though as several pointed out, if one really wants to be traditional, one needs to learn the rigor and techniques that Indians applied in the good old days; e.g. pramAna-vAda, etc.). But when it comes to historical method and overview it is no contest. Modern methods practice a more rigorous methodology and a more developed form of historical pramana than traditional India did. That's too painfully obvious. If Xuanzang and Yijing had not visited from China in the 7th century, our historical and ethnographic knowledge of India at that time would be severely diminished. Indians rarely paid attention to historical issues in that way, though Westerners and, obviously, Chinese do. So criticize modern indologists all you want, but try to smuggle in historical claims. Dan Lusthaus From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Fri Feb 11 18:20:21 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (steve) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 13:20:21 -0500 Subject: Rajasuya celebration Message-ID: <161227055891.23782.6310120801509759705.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am looking for scholarly information reguarding the Rajasuya celebration, especially any information referring to the dice game played at the conclusion. thanks in advance Stephen Brown University of Rochester -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU Fri Feb 11 20:46:37 2000 From: geeta at LIFE.BIO.SUNYSB.EDU (Geeta Bharathan) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 15:46:37 -0500 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation In-Reply-To: <38A5C36A.6669B5C5@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227055897.23782.13229002097427931722.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > I have been comparing the use of earplugs and the associated practice of > ear elongation in India. > > ear elongation minus the ornament. Also, in South India, statues, such > as those of the Tamil saints, suggest that ear elongation was still > prevalent at latter periods. > > My question is when did ear elongation fade out in different parts of > India. Are there any old texts that go into detail concerning this > practice? As far as parts of southern India are concerned, I would say, without either academic "Indological" credentials or old texts, that the "practice" of ear elongation in recent years, at least, is merely the outcome of wearing large, heavy ear ornaments ("ear plugs?") When women stopped wearing these ostentatious ornaments, the practice of ear elongation stopped, too. I've seem women of my grandmother's generation with elongated years. --Geeta, tickled by this exotic description of a familiar phenomenon. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 11 16:12:21 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 16:12:21 +0000 Subject: Dahilaxmi library In-Reply-To: <38A3F4AC.837E466C@ddit.ernet.in> Message-ID: <161227055874.23782.7095828635932718121.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Prof. Dave, I am very interested to learn that you are involved in running this important library of Sanskrit manuscripts. A list of the contents of the library was compiled in the 1950s by Prof. V. Raghavan, and that list was included in the material compiled in the New Catalogus Catalogorum. But it would still be of great interest to be able to study the original list of Raghavan, since that is the only practical way to get a birds-eye view of the contents of this important Gujarat collection of Skt. MSS. Is there a copy of Raghavan's list at the library? And if so, would you and the other members of the library board be willing to publish it? Yours, -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Fri Feb 11 11:23:45 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 16:53:45 +0530 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055868.23782.14650455719830846889.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Arun Gupta wrote: > ......... > > You can mull over the text all you want. But to get to the view you > have to try climbing the mountain. Perhaps the historical study can > help you decide whether you want to try or not. But should you try, > the person who has been on the climb himself is preferable to the > translator of the guide book. > > -arun gupta Good. You are in tune with me. -- Himanshu ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Fri Feb 11 11:38:20 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 17:08:20 +0530 Subject: ashvamedha--to eat or not to eat? Message-ID: <161227055870.23782.10169995380331404393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The current discussion about Azvamedha sacrifice reminds me of an incident > a few years ago. Someone from Chicago called me asking me to contribute > money for a performance of Azvamedha they were going to conduct in > Chicago. I was shocked and thrilled at the same time, and I asked the > person how they were going to deal with sacrificing the horse. The person > was outraged at my question. He said there was no reason to kill a horse. > The swamy who had organized this Azvamedha explained to his followers that > this sacrifice was to be performed so that the medhaa "intelligence" of > the children of the community will be as swift as an azva "horse". They > were going to recite the holy Gaayatrii mantra several thousand times and > make offerings of ghee into the fire. This was the true Azvamedha. > Suffice it to say that this interpretation had saved the life of a horse. > Best, > Madhav Deshpande No, no; the Swami was mistaken! He was not knowing his own roots. He should have really arranged to sacrifice a horse (i.e. a real horse) because so says RigVeda and Yajurveda according to the "Scholars". -- Himanshu ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 12 01:59:46 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 17:59:46 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Message-ID: <161227055902.23782.6780466952299038996.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Subject: Re: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:52:59 -0500 MD: Secondarily, while the classical authors are ahistorical in their approach, is no reason for us to disregard history of thought. We can do so only in deliberate ignorance. VA: I agree that the historical backround of the texts is indispensible to understand their correct import. And I would also agree that many 'traditional Bhashyas' of the Upanishads are sometimes out of place because of anachronisms. However, such a view assumes two things: 1. that the correct historical backdrop is indeed known. While there is a lot to be learnt from the publications of Indologists, one is often apalled to see the flimsiness of conjectures and the wild guesses that are used for reconstruction of history. As an example, I recall an article in the SII in which the Indologist avered that the Vaidik Rishika Apala had very little pubic hair. Another Indologist wrote yet another article stating that actually her vagina was too small for copulation with a male. And of course, esteemed Indologists often make blunders. For an Eg. A. B Keith, in the introduction of his translation of the Aitreya Aranyaka conjectures that Purnaprajna Anandatirtha and Anandagiri were ONE and the same person who first wrote an Advaita exposition of the Upanishads and then a Dvaita interpretation!! And the other classical case is the ridiculous translation of a Baudhayana Srauta Sutra by Dr. Witzel to 'prove' the AIT. Many such reconstructions remind one of the Hindi proverb: "Kahim ke eenth kahin ka roda Bhanumati ney kunba joda" 2. The other assumption is that the Upanishads are textbooks like modern works (i.e, systematic and not needing a living tradition to expound their meaning), and that one does not have to read in between the lines. The Indian tradition rather terms the Brahmanic texts as 'Pravachana' and the justification of this title becomes clear when one actually reads the texts themselves and reflects upon the style in which they are written. Of course, the Max Muellers are free to call them 'raving and rantings of mad men' and Witzels are free to conjure images of fair skinned Kashmiri/Irani/Kashmiri looking IE speakers hurtling down the Khyber on the chariots and overwhelming the proto Mundas or the Para Mundas, but a lot certainly depends on the way one looks at these texts-- i.e, whether one looks them as primitive songs of sheperds and chariot drivers or as products of a river valley civilization. The Srauta Yajnas themselves are an example. Not everything is recorded in the Sutra texts, or Prayogas or the Paddhatis (in vernacular or in Sanskrit) and there is a lot in them that is merely handed down by tradition, orally/via actual practice. If one insists on sticking to the texts themselves, then what will become of the non-verifiable conjectures and reconstructions of Linguists? (And here, I would certainly nod in agreement that Indologists should take Statistics and Probability 101 and Logic 101) I do not even want to discuss the textual emendations that some esteemed Indologists suggest for Upanishads, but even Olivelle takes a rather negative view of it. As you might be aware, the numerous Hindi commentaries on AV, RV etc. (Eg. those of Vishvanath Vidyalankar), make a mockery out of the emendations proposed by Indology scholars in the past. ________________________________________ MD: While Raamaanuja felt no shame in authoring his Zataduu.sa.nii "hundred faults with the doctrine of Maayaavaada", VA: Since I maintain the Visishtadvaita Homepage ( I am still preparing the section on Sri Vedanta Desika, the author of Shatadushani), I feel compelled to add that the Satadushani was not meant to enumerate a 100 faults in Advaita. Rather, it had 2 parts: The first part (surviving portion) deals with the 5 dozen odd flaws in Advaita and the remaining dealt with flaws in the system of the nearly contemporary Sri Madhvacharya. This is the view of the Sri Vaishnava tradition as I know it, although there might be other views on this. The early texts of Visishtadvaita have suffered considerable losses (See work of V. Raghavan and others: Forthcomming section on my website) ________________________________________ MD: a modern visiting Swamy blandly told me that all schools of Vedanta teach the same thing and that there was no more any reason to study the differences between these schools. If such spiritual orientation is to guide the academic study of Sanskrit, we may as well close down the universities and join the Swamis in their anything goes movements. VA: The view of the Swami is not new, it is definitely not post Vivekanda. I do not want to quote the famous words of RV, AV etc., but suggest you to read the 'Uddhava Gita' portion of the Srimad Bhagvatam or even the Karikas of the Mayavadin Gaudapada himself, where he declares that Advaita has no conflict with any other school. On the question of the job security of Indologists, it is indeed worrisome that funding for such programs seems to be declining. But then, why will somebody fund the study of a bucolic culture that was brought by invaders and imposed on an urban civilization in 1500 B.C.E. Personally, I would not give money to people just for making silly conjectures. No, I am not talking of your publications, which are wonderful (and many of them are not completely intelligible to me because of their rigor) and interesting, but this is indeed a point to ponder. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 12 02:17:43 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 18:17:43 -0800 Subject: language, literature, and heliocentrism in India Message-ID: <161227055905.23782.15780276090847194405.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Looking for a variety of responses within the corpus of Indian kavya and sastraic literature which posit that the sun is 'the center of the universe.' Thanks in advance. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Feb 11 23:43:52 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 18:43:52 -0500 Subject: Rajasuya celebration Message-ID: <161227055901.23782.494406823686251128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >I am looking for scholarly information reguarding the Rajasuya celebration, >especially any information referring to the dice game played at the >conclusion. > >thanks in advance > >Stephen Brown >University of Rochester Of some use might be "The SabhAparvan of the MahAbhArata" by J.A.B. Van Buitenen in "Studies in Indian Literature and Philosophy, Collected Articles of J.A.B. van Buitenen" edited by Ludo Rocher where he gives his views on this. For example page 320 footnote 50 "...The original function of the dicing game at the Vedic rajasuya still awaits satisfactory explanation. Heesterman is not convincing. Is it after all not possible that at one time a competition for leadership among rivaling tribal chieftains, or among dynastic princes, might have been decided by the dice as well as by chariot races?..." Yours, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE Fri Feb 11 18:46:42 2000 From: sreeni at KTP.UNI-PADERBORN.DE (Sreenivas Paruchuri) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 19:46:42 +0100 Subject: Rajasuya celebration In-Reply-To: <006301bf74bc$a87b74c0$35819780@eznet.net> Message-ID: <161227055893.23782.2259830258924343942.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > I am looking for scholarly information reguarding the Rajasuya celebration, > especially any information referring to the dice game played at the > conclusion. In first line, I can think of the following two, excellant, German works: Falk, Harry: Bruderscahft und Wurfelspiel - Untersuchungen zur Entwicklungsgeschichte des vedischen Opfers, Freiburg, 1986 Lueders, Heinrich: Das W?rfelspiel im alten Indien, Kraus, Nendeln, 1970 (Repr.) IIRC, Heesterman only refers to, but doesn't offer 'lengthy' discussion on Dice Game in his monograph: The ancient Indian royal consecration - the *raajasuuya* described according to the Yajus texts and annotations. Regards, Sreenivas P.S. Ronald Inden's essay on Kingship in: Kingship and authority in south Asia (Ed.: JF Richards, 1981, theres a recent reprint too?) 'd be of interest to you. P.P.S. I also have seen a discussion on same in Shulman & Handelman's recent work: God inside out: Siva's game of dice (OUP, 1997). From haridasc at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 12 16:03:29 2000 From: haridasc at YAHOO.COM (Haridas C) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 08:03:29 -0800 Subject: addendum--heliocentricism Message-ID: <161227055910.23782.10294249985292427052.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List, Looking for a variety of responses within the corpus of Indian kavya and sastraic literature which posit that the sun is 'the center of the universe.' Thanks in advance. addendum: I wish not to be greedy, but preferably, pre-Copernican. Thank you. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 12 17:09:43 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 09:09:43 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Message-ID: <161227055912.23782.4894793934017297031.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: >esteemed Indologists often make blunders. For an Eg. A. B Keith, in the >introduction of his translation of the Aitreya Aranyaka conjectures that >Purnaprajna Anandatirtha and Anandagiri were ONE and the same person who >first wrote an Advaita exposition of the Upanishads and then a Dvaita Keith said that? Note that Max Weber (The Religion of India) blithely identifies Madhva with Vidyaranya (usually identified as Madhava). >VA: The view of the Swami is not new, it is definitely not post Vivekanda. >I >do not want to quote the famous words of RV, AV etc., but suggest you to >read the 'Uddhava Gita' portion of the Srimad Bhagvatam or even the Karikas >of the Mayavadin Gaudapada himself, where he declares that Advaita has no >conflict with any other school. There is a key difference between the avirodha of gau.dapaada and the "anything goes" purveyors of modern spirituality movements. The former says, sva-siddhaanta vyavasthaasu dvaitino ni;scitaa d.r.dham | parasparam virudhyante tair ayam na virudhyate || What is this "ayam" that does not enter into virodha? It is only advaita, and specifically, gau.dapaada's ajaati vaada. This is a meta-creationist view, and therefore does not come into conflict with any specific theory of creation. However, gau.dapaada does acknowledge that the other views DO conflict with one another. Contrast this with some contemporary authors, who quote everyone under the sun, in an apparently random fashion. Some of these people tell us that from Buddha and the Upanishads down to Rajneesh and Timothy Leary, via Sankara and Ramana and Aurobindo and Krishnamurti, everybody said the same thing. They perhaps believe this themselves. What a far cry from the incisive dialectic and penetrating insight of gau.dapaada. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Feb 12 17:19:12 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 09:19:12 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenuredIndologists. Message-ID: <161227055882.23782.18220884713716914575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> "Subrahmanya S." wrote: > > To understand Indology, one has to study European politics > and academia over the past 200 years. > I agree, although I would replace European with Euroamerican. You may receive the response that things changed after World War II or in the 60s. However, the evidence supports the contention that the old ideology was merely submerged, but hardly eradicated. Dilip Chakrabarti's book on colonial Indology is the best work on this subject in my opinion. To get some background on this from other viewpoints, try St. Clair Drake's _Black Folk: Here and There_; Ward Churchill's _Fantasies of the master race: literature, cinema, and the colonization of American Indians_; Leon Poliakov's _The Aryan Myth_. Also, it is good to understand the whole eugenics movement to really get to the underpinnings of a lot of this ideology. Africa2000 maintains an excellent page on this subject containing material by both African and Catholic resaerchers: Eugenics Watch http://www.africa2000.com/ENDX/endx.htm Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Feb 12 17:45:54 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 09:45:54 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads Message-ID: <161227055885.23782.13344357215313773174.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tarek Wani wrote: > > I would urge that courses on logic and scientific method > should be made compulsory for Indological students and > professors. And maybe some traditional learning. The sutra literature is the best example of text that acts mostly as mnemonics to be filled in by a guru. While it is true that there is a great deal of divergence in traditional learning, there must also be some common ground that would be useful in the historical and scientific methods. > > To speak of the azvamedha rite, for example: How do we > know for sure that there did not exist several schools > of thought, some of which took it literally and some > others more adhyAtmically? How about the evolution > of these ideas? > > Thus Caraka S., 19th adhyAya, says that originally > pazus were not slaughtered in ritual, and this practice > came later. > I'm not really sure why there should be so much resistance though to the idea of actual slaughter in sacrifice. Such practices (animal sacrifice) go on today, and not too long ago even humans were supposedly sacrificed to Kali in Bengal and Nepal. I have also heard that the wars and battles in the Vedas are not real conflicts involving bloodshed, but simply refer to the battle of good and evil that takes place within the self (or something along this line). Is there a desire to idealize Vedic society? The issue of beef eating, otoh, is an entire different thing since it would tend to show a great deal of divergence from modern and historical Hinduism as compared to the proposed Vedic society. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Sat Feb 12 14:59:36 2000 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 09:59:36 -0500 Subject: Thurukkural and Buddhism Part 1 Message-ID: <161227055906.23782.1525533112318628391.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tirukural author Jain or Buddhist? By D. Amarasiri Weeraratne Tirukkural is a Tamil classical poem which is considered a masterpiece of world literature. It has achieved world-fame after it was translated and published in foreign languages - English. Latin, German, Russian, etc. There are two Sinhala translations one by Missy Nona, a school mistress who won laurels by bringing out this translation. The other is by Charles de Silva, a Sinhala scholar and linguist of high attainment. Nowhere in the work do we get any information who the author was or where he lived. Like the authors of the earliest Sinhala classics, the sage author remained anonymous. But all scholars accept the tradition that the author was Tiruvalluvar who lived in the 6th century C.E. This book was well-known to Sinhala scholars of the Kotte period. In fact Tamil literature was taught at the Vijayabahu Pirivena, Totagamuwa, where Sri Rahula was the Principal. One of his pupillary disciples Ranasgalle Thera wrote the well-known Lokopakaraya which is entirely inspired and based on the Tirukkkural. Lokopakaraya (Counsel for the People of the World) needs no introduction to Sinhala literary men. Was Tiruvalluvar a Buddhist, Jain, or Hindu? Many Jain scholars and a few saivaites claim him to be an adherent of their faith. It is a tricky problem to sort out these claims and arrive at a conclusion which would satisfy all. This book contains sage advice on the practice of the Dharma (religion), acquiring wealth (artha) and enjoyment of sensual pleasures (kama). It teaches ethics, manners, morals and decorum, in fact all the paraphernalia of a civilised and cultured man. In fact it became the vade-mecum of the elite Indians whatever their religion. There is no special doctrine or teaching peculiar to any Indian religion in the book by which we can identify Tiruvalluvar's faith. But his salutations at the outset in ten verses are to the primordial source of everything in the universe, to which he gives the appellation " Adi-Bhagavat". From AppuArchie at AOL.COM Sat Feb 12 15:02:42 2000 From: AppuArchie at AOL.COM (Ramalingam Shanmugalingam) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 10:02:42 -0500 Subject: Thirukkural and Buddhism Part 2 Message-ID: <161227055908.23782.6952929485073702620.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tirukural author Jain or Buddhist? By D. Amarasiri Weeraratne Bhagavat is a term which is applicable to both Buddha, and Mahavira the founder of Jainism. Adi-Buddha is a term familiar to Mahayana Buddhists, while in Jainism and Hinduism there is no parallel human personality to whom the attributes of Adi-Bhagavat given by Tiruvalluvar in the first ten verses are applicable. Buddhist view - Why do Buddhist scholars think that Tiruvulluvar was a Buddhist? It is well-known that Buddhism and Jainism were the leading religions in South India before they were ousted by the Saivaites. Kanchipura and Kaveripattanam were Buddhist strongholds. The great Buddhist commentators Buddaghosha, Buddhadatta, and Anuruddha and Dharmapala were South Indians. Buddhist poets were foremost in Tamil literature during the hey-day of Buddhism. The Tamil grammar Virasoliam, Kundalakesi, and Manimekhala are well-known as the works of Tamil Buddhist scholars in the service of the Dharma. Tiruvalluvar lived during this time. So who is the Adi-Bhagavat whom he adores and worships at the outset? All Buddhist know and worship Buddha in their daily devotions as 'Bhagava' - Blessed one. The Mahayana concept of Buddha is a metamorphosis of the historical Buddha, the Indian teacher of the 5th century B.C. They have deified him and made him Adi-Buddha or Adi-Bhagava an emanating from the primordial source of the universe. The idea is an adoption from the Vedanta to bring in line Buddhism with the Vedanta philosophy and so bring about a synthesis which is really a corruption of the apostates. The Jains too call their teacher Buddha, Jina, Arahat and Bhagavan. So Jains may well contend that Tiruvalluvar was a Jain with some justice. But we are not aware of any place where the Jains refer to Mahavira as Adi-Buddha or Adi-Bhagavat. As mentioned earlier the Adi Buddha concept is a Mahayana corruption out of tune with the teachings of the Buddha in the Pali Canon. The Jains never deified their teacher nor corrupted his human image. Therefore the view of most Buddhist scholars is that the salutations to Adi-Buddha in the Tirukkural are adorations to Gautama Buddha in his Mahayana setting. In order to see whether we can get any clue to Tiruvalluvar's religion it is necessary to study verses 2 to 10 of the Tirukkural. These are the only lines however indecisive, ambitious, or vague they may be which provide the guidelines. Relevant texts 2. "What is the use of mastering many sciences and arts if one worships not the lotus-feet of him who has mastered the way to liberation from Sansara." That is to say he worships a person who has mastered a way-not an inanimate force without attributes of good or evil-as is the case is with Nirguna Brahman of the Vedanta. Buddhists know and understand these lines perfectly as the way all Buddhist poets have referred to Buddha in our literature. 3. "Those who seek refuge in the one who walked on lotus-flowers will enjoy happiness in the world free from suffering for a long time". 4."Those who worship the lotus feet of him who is free from greed and hate will never be born in woeful states". 5. "He who engages himself in praising the virtues of the Blessed one will enjoy the benefits of his good work." 6. "He gave up the way of sensual pleasantries. He taught the Noble Straight Way. Those who tread this path will enjoy much happiness and live a long life". 7. "It is only those who worship and adore his lotus feet that will overcome their cares and tribulations. Others will not achieve this happiness". 8. "It is only those who adore him who is full of virtue and goodness that can cross the sea of Sansara. Others will not succeed." 9. "Truly the head of the person who worships not the holy feet of him possessed of Eight Virtues is good for nothing. It is an empty head". 10. "It is only those who follow and adore the lotus-feet of the Great Being that can cross the ocean of Sansara and see the further shore." Even Buddhist schoolboys know the legend of the Buddha is depicted as seated on a lotus. So the reference in verse 3 should be to the Buddha. The reference to the "Noble Straight Way" is the Noble Eightfold Path of the Buddha which is referred to as "Ukukujo name so maggo" in the Sutras. This means "That path is called the straight path. So the reference at verse 6 is to the Noble Eightfold Path which is the sum and substance of Buddhism in practice. Tiruvalluvar's teachings on Ahimsa and Caste are a re-echo of the Buddha's teachings. The Bhagavad Gita sanctions violence in war. It is a divinely ordained duty of the warrior caste. The Tirukkural teachings on Ahimsa are clearly Buddhist or Jain. Animal Sacrifice was condoned in the Vedas. On the question of caste the chapter is a re-echo of the Buddha's teachings in the Vasala Sutra. Here the scale are tipped in favour of Buddhism, whereas on several other teachings the scales are evenly balanced between Buddhism and Jainism. Thus in the evaluation of the evidence for Buddism and Jainism, Buddhism emerges as more acceptable as the likely faith of Tiruvalluvar. From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Feb 12 18:58:19 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 10:58:19 -0800 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Message-ID: <161227055914.23782.7579049687847108207.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan Subject: Re: Regarding the Upanishads.- Conflicting logic of tenured Indologists. Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:09:43 PST Vishal Agarwal wrote: >esteemed Indologists often make blunders. For an Eg. A. B Keith, in the >introduction of his translation of the Aitreya Aranyaka conjectures that >Purnaprajna Anandatirtha and Anandagiri were ONE and the same person who >first wrote an Advaita exposition of the Upanishads and then a Dvaita VS: Keith said that? Note that Max Weber (The Religion of India) blithely identifies Madhva with Vidyaranya (usually identified as Madhava). VA2: Yes, I possess my own copy of the work. In fact, in a Hindi journal 'Vedavani', there was a series of articles which gave 100's of instances of specific blunders of Indologists, with references and quotations. The author of the series was Pandit Shivashankar Kavyateertha. And then, there are Hindi translations of the Brhaddevata, Aitreya Brahmana, Samkhayana Brahmana etc., which make negative remarks against the earlier English translations of MacDonnel, Keith etc. _____________________ >VA: The view of the Swami is not new, it is definitely not post Vivekanda. >I VS:There is a key difference between the avirodha of gau.dapaada and the "anything goes" purveyors of modern spirituality movements. The former says, VA2: True. Note that my initial comment was based on the words 'Post Vivekanand..." While the Swami also said a number of different things at different times, he did state (evident from so many publications of RK Mission) that the Dvaita and Visishtadvaita eventually got 'subsumed' in Advaita, while acknowledging that there were indeed differences between the Buddhist philosophy for instance, and Vedanta. This is similar in spirit to what Sri Gaudacharya said. And also to the scheme of things in the system of Vijnana Bhikshu wherein the Samkhya, Yoga, Vaiseshika all had their on place within the super-structure of Vedanta. So, the original statement of Dr. Deshpande is untenable (unless I misconstrued it). While I myself do not try to force fit different Darshanas into one organic structure, nevertheless, I do acknowledge that such a tendency is not new in India. Even the Sarvadarshana Samgraha arranges the different Darshanas in a particular order with a particular view in mind. So also the Sarvasiddhanta Samgraha. Anyway, I have hardly come across a believer in the Dvaita or the Visishtadvaita Vedanta who makes such statements of the organic unity of divergent systems of thought. And personally, I have very little patience with the Gandhian ( or whatever name one would like to give it) tendency to equate different religions as different sides of the same crystal. This view is promoted by the Indian Govt. and the Secularist scholars vigorously to help communal harmony in India, as I understand. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From kekai at JPS.NET Sat Feb 12 20:32:45 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 12:32:45 -0800 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation Message-ID: <161227055895.23782.6031079780401674848.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have been comparing the use of earplugs and the associated practice of ear elongation in India. Such earplugs appear in Harappa and particularly large numbers were recovered from Lothal. Statues of the Buddha often show the practice of ear elongation minus the ornament. Also, in South India, statues, such as those of the Tamil saints, suggest that ear elongation was still prevalent at latter periods. My question is when did ear elongation fade out in different parts of India. Are there any old texts that go into detail concerning this practice? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Sat Feb 12 20:53:48 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 13:53:48 -0700 Subject: Thirukkural and Buddhism Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055924.23782.3903023670546789684.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thank to Ramalingam for this interesting note. I will mention why I think Thirukkural is the work of a Jain, although it is certianly written as a non-sectarian work. First let me mention that for the period it was composed in, the question should not be "Was Tiruvalluvar a Buddhist, Jain, or Hindu?" rather it should be "Was Tiruvalluvar a Buddhist, Jain, a Shaiva, a Vaishnava, a Vedavadi etc." The separate religious traditions identified in Manimekhalai are Shaiva, Brahmavadi, Vaishnava, Vedavadi, Ajivika, Jain, Samkhya, Vaisheshika, and materilist in addition to Buddhism. Also there is no general agreement about the time of Tiruvalluvar (it may depend on the assumed date for Manimekhalai). The first Jina, Lord Rishabh is quite often called Adi. For example: Aadimam prathiveenatham-aadimama nishparigraham| Aadimam tirthanatham cha, Rashabhaswaaminam stumah||1|| In fact term Adinath is more common than Rishabh. Incidentally Mahavira was the 24th Jina (just like Gotam Shakyamuni was the 25th Buddha). Much of the first chapter could be interpreted as applying to Buddha. Verse 6 suggests that Adi Bhagavan was born as a human being and he controlled his senses. However the concept in verse 5 probably can not be Buddhist (Weeraratne's translation appears to be faulty) It is translated by P.S. Sundaram as: The delusions caused by good deeds and bad Shall never be theirs who seek God's Praises. Kural is a strong supporter of vegetarianism. In Theravad Buddhism, while killing is not permitted, eating meat is. In some Buddhist regions, Muslim butchers sell meat (like in Kashmir before people became Muslim) Verse 256 says (tr: Dikshitar) Would there be meat for sale, if men were not to kill animals for flesh? suggesting Valluvar was a Jain and not a Buddhist. Incidentally, in Mahayana, the monks are vegetarian, but lay people can eat meat. Yashwant PS: I have always wondered if the Kural manuscripts differ at all, or all printed versions are based on a single manuscript? Incidentally, Jainism was once present in Srilanka, it was perhaps common among Tamils there. From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Sat Feb 12 18:58:26 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 13:58:26 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads. Message-ID: <161227055916.23782.14433150202052935944.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 2/10/00 2:42:43 PM, suvidya at WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: >The boxer analogy was probably not the best. Her is another try : >the Upanishads are like a guide book (in Sanskrit) that say -- >there is a mountain over there, it is worth climbing, the view from >the top is phenomenal. > >You can mull over the text all you want. But to get to the view you >have to try climbing the mountain. Perhaps the historical study can >help you decide whether you want to try or not. But should you try, >the person who has been on the climb himself is preferable to the >translator of the guide book. I agree with you. However, to use your analogy, Indology is a forum for aficionados of old guidebooks. Its purpose is to ask questions like: Who really wrote this guidebook? Did he borrow from previous guidebooks? Did other people add to it later? Why did he choose this word? Does this word mean the same thing in all the different guidebooks? Why is a different word used in a different edition of the same guidebook? Are these guidebooks talking about the same mountain, a different mountain, or just a foothill? And so on. The benefit for a mountain climber is that all this puzzling should produce a more reliable guidebook. Brian -------------------- Brian Dana Akers www.pipeline.com/~sfauthor/ sfauthor at aol.com From rpeck at NECA.COM Sat Feb 12 19:10:16 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 14:10:16 -0500 Subject: interpretation Message-ID: <161227055920.23782.17255682713557257835.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Another possible approach to understanding the ancient writings, requiring both an academic approach plus experiential, is to first accept that they are beyond modern experience and perhaps unsupported by tradition. I am an amateur indologist but a professional scientist and approached some of the writings as foreign scientific discourse rather than religious. Science demands a sequential development of terms that are self-contained in a new presentation that allows a novice to the language to extract the essential meaning. Perhaps I was also lucky that I early encountered the ParAtriMshikA that unfolded nicely yielding some very exciting basic definitions that could then be applied to other writings. The other scientific necessity is to comparatively test the findings. Do some of you academics use this approach? From tarekwani at USA.COM Sat Feb 12 19:51:04 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 14:51:04 -0500 Subject: Regarding the Upanishads Message-ID: <161227055922.23782.5667825270017535854.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Brian Akers makes a good point of how the Vedic texts may be compared to a guide book to help the reader make the journey to find the view himself. Certainly, this is well known, to good scholars east or west. But then how do we explain the sloppiness of a lot of work in this field as mentioned by Vishal Agarwal-- or if someone doesn't like the messenger being an Indian-- Edmund Leach, Jim Shaffer, Klaus Klostermaier? Three answers to that: 1. The methodological flaws in the general philological model and the use of circular reasoning. Such people need to read up current thinking on this matter (a la J. Robb in ANTIQUITY, 67, 747-760, 1993). Olender in his book "The Languages of Paradise: Race, Religion, and Philology in the Nineteenth Century" (HUP, 1992) exposes the errors of method very well. 2. Logical errors resulting from a desperate need to fit data into a preconceived model. 3. Ignoring the research done in Indian languages-- such as Hindi, as pointed out by Vishal Agarwal-- which has many excellent critical studies from a historical perspective. (Those who refuse to look at literature outside of European languages would save themselves a lot of later grief if they became openminded.) To this one must add the use of a broad brush to dismiss all inconvenient views. -tAraka vANI --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Sat Feb 12 21:23:27 2000 From: pmg6s at CMS.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Meredith Greer) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 00 16:23:27 -0500 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation In-Reply-To: <38A70201.4C133541@jps.net> Message-ID: <161227055926.23782.18334962500459240144.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> You might look at various writings by David White regarding the Nath Siddhas, who "bore" their ears, for esoteric reasons -- in particular White's . Patricia On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:12:02 -0800 Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > Geeta Bharathan wrote: > > > > As far as parts of southern India are concerned, I would say, without > > either academic "Indological" credentials or old texts, that the > > "practice" of ear elongation in recent years, at least, is merely the > > outcome of wearing large, heavy ear ornaments ("ear plugs?") > > Not modern earplugs used to protect against noise, but the disc-like > pottery and shell ornaments (usually incised) inserted into large > circular perforations in the lower earlobe. > > When women > stopped wearing these ostentatious ornaments, the practice > of >ear> elongation stopped, too. > > So the practice among men must have ended earlier. > > >I've seem women of my grandmother's generation > > with elongated years. > > > > Interesting. And don't worry, I won't ask how old you are. > > Regards, > Paul Kekai Manansala > > -- > Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ ________________________________ Patricia M. Greer Department of Religious Studies University of Virginia From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 13 17:30:54 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 09:30:54 -0800 Subject: Aryan Panzers (pt. 2) Message-ID: <161227055936.23782.13631229294989495489.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Michael Witzel MW: Of course, I never wrote that fair skinned (who is obsessed here??)Indo-Europeans (!) crossed the Khyber on their chariots. Very sloppyreporting. Nor of Indo-Aryans 'overwhelming' the Para-Mundas. VA: See Post # 255 of January 2000 archives where you have described this 'Acculturation' and have compared it to that of the comming of Huns etc. Just using a different terminology (Migration and Acculturation for Invasion) does not change the net result. What you have described is a clear case of an invasion by IE speakers and overwhelming of the natives. And obviously, the Kashmiris etc. are fair skinned compared to the people of the Gangetic plains. A psycho-analysis of your statement would actually prove your infatuations and subliminal tendencies, not mine. I also note that the Erdosy conference took place years before you signed off on this intro. to Kuiper's volume (quoted in Post #255). It appears that you have indeed conceded that your translation of the sutra of the Baudhayana Kalpa was totally wrong. And what else could you do, after Dr. Cardona pronounced his judgement on the Saraswati list. Using the logic that you used against Dr. Elst in September earlier in 1999, I could say a lot of things about you, but I am an educated person who does not wish to indulge in such things. Nor do I want to tell Indologists of the skewed logic of Hastin and Dwipin that you have directly inherited from the days of Max Mueller. Indologists! Do an archive search with Dr. Witzel's name in this list and you will discover that he started off with a personal and a cheap tirade against the Hinduja foundation. Beware! __________________________ MW:It seems V.A. was thinking of the sturdy (and historically wrong) Amar Citra Kala chariots?? VA: While accusing others of misquoting you and reading between lines penned by you, you have fallen into the same trap. And by the way, it is Amar Chitra Katha, not Amar Chitra Kala!! You blamed Erdosy earlier for changing Talageri to Telagiri. Who will you blame now? _______________________ MW:Sloppiness, misrepresentation, rhetorics, emotions, and politics.... VA: Really? Why not revisit your own posts on this forum or your own publications? ___________________ MW:Note, after all, my speech marks. Any half-way intelligent or good-willed reader will recognize that this is a simile! VA: Well, more could come if I have time. It is indeed amusing that on one hand you attribute the errors in your articles to Erdosy who corrected your 'Germanisch English' and on the other, you pontificate others on the nuances of English. In any case, your language is certainly guttaral. ______________________ MW:I invite Messrs. Wani, Subrahmanya, Agarwal, et al., to stand still and hold their position in front of quickly approaching (modern) horse race 'chariots', or in front of a line of police on horseback (even without Lathi charge), and then report back to the list ... if they are able to do so after this little experiment. VA: Report what? That my descendants gave up my language and adopted the culture of the horse riders? That my family members intermarried with the horse riders? ________________________________________ MW:(Incidentally, no insinuation but fact, V. Agarwal is indeed closely allied to the BJP, as he *himself* told me. His uncles hold important positions there). VA: Again, a misrepresentation. You and others in the list should remember that I save all my correspondence with others and I can reproduce our private discussion from March-June 1999 (and even later, till September) to prove my point, whether here or in the court of law. My uncle is involved with the VHP and I merely offered to use my good offices to help in your research on Vedic recitations since the VHP has set up 12 Vedapathashalas in India for the preservations of 12 extant Shakhas. And I offered to do so despite my intimate knowledge of your publications and the differences in our opinions. And you also expressed your extreme gratitude for the same and even offered to give gratis the old recordings that you have!! I never said that I am a member of the BJP or that I am involved int their or RSS' or VHP's activities. For that matter, my paternal grandfather was the Mayor of Delhi (the position had a different title then) in the 1950's for Congress and my family members consistently vote for the Congress to this day (with the exception of some). You can ask Dr. Fosse for further clarifications. And we still have old videos and pictures with Pt. Nehru etc., and gifts from Chairman Mao of China and so on as prized family possessions. Even if I were involved with the BJP, your remarks are quite cheap and out of place. It is like alleging that Dr. Witzel has Nazi tendencies because he is a German. But such a remark would indeed be an insinuation like yours. Your remark certainly imply your animus against a major partner of the ruling coalition of India. Finally, without reproducing your other uncouth posts etc., I would certainly express my surprise that the List Master does not chastize you for posting such long messages! Differences of opinion are but natural but I see that there are others on the list (Dr. Deshpande for instance) who behave in a very dignified and an educated manner in such circumstances. Of course, I do not expect the narrow minded members of the 'old boy's club' and 'birds on the same tree' to chastise you. I will let them eat the fruit of that tree and while I will remain seated in the other tree, looking around resplendently :-) I will not participate with any further discussions with you because I have stopped my dialogue with you. Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Feb 13 15:07:30 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 10:07:30 -0500 Subject: Aryan Panzers Message-ID: <161227055931.23782.17446431528032843595.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The new century as begun as badly as the last one ended. Since Jan. 1, we have seen one tirade after another about Aryans, Indian Studies/Indology in the West, or about the North/South Indian divide. However, the following is an interesting 'philological' study of amusing, emotionally and politically motivated, rhetorical distortions of one's writing. Readers of INDOLOGY beware! ======================================================== My original paragraph reads: Erdosy 1995; p. 108-9 < From: Early Indian history: Linguistic and textual parameters In: The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia. G. Erdosy (ed.), Berlin/New York: de Gruyter 1995, 85-125, (bold characters are added here for ease of reading and reference) > ** A rather long period of acculturation is also visible in the appearance of "Aryan" kings with non-Indo-Aryan names, such as Balbutha and Brbu. In fact, this is just one of the many features which point, in spite of the constant warfare mentioned in the RV, to a rather close relationship between the incoming Indo-Aryans and the local populations, with the result that the latter became gradually "Aryanized." Not only the language but also the culture of the newly arrived elite was appropriated, including the Vedic "tank", the horse-drawn chariot. In the words of F. Southworth (1974), echoed by Kuiper (1991:8), "the equation of Indo-Aryan speakers with 'Aryans' (i.e. the original intruders and their direct descendants) is not supported by historical evidence", and: "As a sociological term, 'Aryan' denotes all those who took part in the sacrifices and festivals." (Kuiper 1991: 96) ** (My old files read slightly but not substantially differently, and can be supplied; this is the version as edited by Erdosy) Incidentally, as any conscientious reader will understand, this is not a theory of massive "Aryan invasions" on chariots/horse back but represents a much more nuanced and sophisticated scenario, in part based on the model developed by the, sorry, .... anthropologist C. Ehret, for --horribile dictu-- parts of Africa. ==== The following quotes from INDOLOGY are of interest as we can nicely establish the trail (after all, I am a philologist). It was started some 3-4 years ago in an *anonymous* review ("must read!") of Erdosy's ed. volume (1995) in, I think, the Sanskrit list out of Utah (if necessary, the 'review' can be found); and it may have been copied elsewhere. From this anonymous piece, the trail continued with oblique references, up to the recent direct attacks naming horse and rider. I have followed, with great amusement, the pedigree of the original Sanskrit-List statement on this list: (a) Vidhyanath Rao Mon, 2 Mar 1998 >>Indologists before they start asserting that chariots were used as tanks >>and that horses would have frightened the people of ancient Near East of >>late 3rd-early 2nd m. BCE. << who said that? Read my quote above (b) Vidhyanath Rao Tue, 31 Mar 1998 >>Elementary consideration of military tactics and the construction of early chariots make it clear that the 2nd m. chariot could not have been used like a tank. Yet Indologists continue to assert that chariots were `tanks'. << again, not at all what I wrote... and which Indologists? (c) S. Subrahmanya : Wed, 1 Apr 1998 this time on Mallory, in JIES 23, 1995: >>.... dominating urban sites, acquiring material wealth the Aryans turn >>up in time in north-west India, and all this using their chariot-tanks -- >>It sounds more like a panzer blitzkrieg.<< one step further ... apparently inspired by Rao. (d) Vidhyanath Rao Wed, 2 Dec 1998 >> things like ``chariots were the tanks of {Bronze Age etc}''<< once again, who said that? (e) SNS Mon, 4 Jan 1999 >>Chariot Panzers, led by Indra Rommels, shooting Kulturekugels ? Then surely, the neighing of horses must have sounded like the whistle of diving Stuka bombers and frightened the Dravidians<< no comment. NB: 'Kulturkugel' (thus correctly) 'culture bullet', a non-existing German word, was invented by Mallory (1998) for a non-military context, and, as he himself says, 'half-facetiously'. He uses it as a mechanical simile and as model for the introduction of steppe language into the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC), not South Asia; the steppe people would have taken over much of the BMAC material culture, etc. etc. Obviously SNS has not read the paper as he takes kulturkugel literally... Of course, the rest of this polemical statement does not come from anything that I have written. (continued, with recent direct attacks)) ========= ----------------- Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 5625 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sun Feb 13 15:07:45 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 10:07:45 -0500 Subject: Aryan Panzers (pt. 2) Message-ID: <161227055928.23782.5170007142519345426.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Here come the amusing attacks: (f) TAREK WANI: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 > A slavish devotion to philology's 19th century models and a sense of >self-righteousness >has created not only wonders such as Witzel's panzer divisions The above message contains, of course, an ethnic slur. I have never written about Vedic "panzer divisions" -- Varus, give me back my divisions! Note the nice shift from my (in speech marks) *"tank"* to *panzer divisions*... And, 19th cent. models? Who ? --- Evidence, please... (g) S. SUBAAHMANYA: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 >>that is why Indology has had Aryan noses, Aryan languages and now Witzel has 'managed' to find Aryan chariot panzers << So, there are no Aryan languages? Just a primordial Prakrit (which is supposed to include Dravidian!!) of 4-5000 years ago, as some (in India or of Indian descent in the US) now maintain??? Note, again, "tank" > chariot panzers (h) VISHAL AGARWAL Fri, 11 Feb 2000 >> Of course, the Max Muellers ... and Witzels are free to conjure images >>of fair skinned Kashmiri/Irani/Kashmiri looking IE speakers hurtling down >>the Khyber on the chariots and overwhelming the proto Mundas or the Para >>Mundas << Of course, I never wrote that fair skinned (who is obsessed here??) Indo-Europeans (!) crossed the Khyber on their chariots. Very sloppy reporting. Nor of Indo-Aryans 'overwhelming' the Para-Mundas. See above on *rather long period of acculturation.* Misrepresentation, or wishful thinking about what I might have written to fit the imagined 19th c. Indologist? It seems V.A. was thinking of the sturdy (and historically wrong) Amar Citra Kala chariots?? Maybe, the Proto-IA used, in addition to pack animals and the *anas* (heavy wagon), perhaps even the cross-country *vipatha* carts -- if their trans-humance trail was good enough for passage. ======================= All of the above is a long way from my *new technology of the Vedic "tank", the horse-drawn chariot,* isn't it?? Sloppiness, misrepresentation, rhetorics, emotions, and politics.... Note, after all, my speech marks. Any half-way intelligent or good-willed reader will recognize that this is a simile! For reactions to new weaponry, think, e.g., of the not-so-amused reaction to the first tanks in France in 1917, or of the reaction of the Incas to the new six-legged, iron-clad Kentauroi, the Spanish, or think of the well-documented quick adaptation of chariots in the Near East during the first half of the second mill. BCE. Why? For fun? -- It was useful for royal status/representation AND for military purposes. I invite Messrs. Wani, Subrahmanya, Agarwal, et al., to stand still and hold their position in front of quickly approaching (modern) horse race 'chariots', or in front of a line of police on horseback (even without Lathi charge), and then report back to the list ... if they are able to do so after this little experiment. In sum, (intentionally?) sloppy reporting, emotional reactions, and good revisionist politics, but not even revisionist scholarship, except for Rao who tried ... (Incidentally, no insinuation but fact, V. Agarwal is indeed closely allied to the BJP, as he *himself* told me. His uncles hold important positions there). Apparently, I have stepped, with one little simile, on the raw nerves of some people following the present fashion of denying any outside influence on Archaic India/South Asia (-- a century ago, Tilak thought differently). So be it. I will change my mind if they will be able to show that (Indo-European --> Indo-Iranian --> ) Proto-Indo-Aryan language *and* spiritual/material culture developed inside the subcontinent. Good hunting! They will have to do their homework first. I expect to see the results ... a decade or two from now, and with negative outcome. In sum: *Readers of INDOLOGY beware of any of the writings of the above mentioned on this list!* End of 'Politics and Rhetorics 101'. =========================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 4715 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kekai at JPS.NET Sun Feb 13 19:12:02 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 11:12:02 -0800 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation Message-ID: <161227055918.23782.8976104004410807339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Geeta Bharathan wrote: > > As far as parts of southern India are concerned, I would say, without > either academic "Indological" credentials or old texts, that the > "practice" of ear elongation in recent years, at least, is merely the > outcome of wearing large, heavy ear ornaments ("ear plugs?") Not modern earplugs used to protect against noise, but the disc-like pottery and shell ornaments (usually incised) inserted into large circular perforations in the lower earlobe. When women > stopped wearing these ostentatious ornaments, the practice of >ear> elongation stopped, too. So the practice among men must have ended earlier. >I've seem women of my grandmother's generation > with elongated years. > Interesting. And don't worry, I won't ask how old you are. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sun Feb 13 16:54:41 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 17:54:41 +0100 Subject: Fw: Re: Oedipus in Sanskrit? Message-ID: <161227055934.23782.5872173210957357145.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Stephen Hodge wrote on 8 februari 2000 18:20 about Immanuel Velikovsky: > You may be unaware of the events that transpired in the 50s that > resulted in his being hounded out of academic circles by a cabal of > conservative anti-semitic scholars who did their best to discredit his > theories. A bit reminiscent of AIT contraversies. Sure. Recently I came across the following quote attributed to V. Mair (I keep hoping it is a misquote), about European Homeland dissenters: they are "extremists, chauvinists and other types of deranged -- and possibly dangerous -- persons (e.g. those who locate the IE homeland in such highly improbable if not utterly impossible places as the Arctic, along the Indus Valley, in the Tarim Basin, in China; nationalists and racists of various stripes; kooks and crazies who attribute the rise of IEs to extraterrestrial visitations, etc.)" Meanwhile, Prof. Witzel's Panzer chariot adventure illustrates how the problem is not just on one side of the AIT divide. Fortunately, while the dogs bark, the caravan moves on. I am happy to draw your attention to the publication of Shrikant Talageri's milestone book: *The Rigveda, a Historical Analysis* (Aditya Prakashan). One of those books which make you say: So it was all there, why hasn't anyone seen this before? I propose a wager: before this year is over, that book will have made a dozen established Indologists change their minds about the AIT. And I don't mean they will opt for the "extraterrestrial visitations" theory. Talageri's book has a fair amount of the kind of evidence Prof. Witzel just asked for: how the development from PIE to Indo-Iranian etc. took place within India. > It seems that sometimes the baby gets > thrown out with the bathwater ! Certainly. One example is Dr. Wujastyk's decision to ban "not bringing out the best in people" by banning the AIT debate altogether. It was quite understandable, and as the recipient of a fair dose of hate-mail on and off list, I welcomed it as saving me precious time from nasty quarrels. And given the Panzer story, I fear there really is a case for keeping or rather reviving the ban. So, I hurry to apologize to Dr. Wujastyk for trespassing against this ban. All the same, the ban on discussion of such a pivotal question for the whole Indology field risks receiving a footnote mention in some future Blunder Book of how academics missed yet another train of scientific progress. > It is also noteworthy that several of > his key ideas have become somewhat more respectable (...) You must be > aware that there are several scholars who have > argued the need for extensive revision of Egyptian chronology though > often without acknowledging Velikovsky's contribution. It's promising to learn that there is some justice in this world. Best to you all, Dr. K. Elst http://members.xoom.com/Koenraad.Elst/ From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 14 02:14:05 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 18:14:05 -0800 Subject: language, literature, and heliocentrism in India In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055954.23782.3928284598353664734.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following might be of interest: Pingree, D. An astronomer's progress (Maharajadhiraja Jayasimha, heliocentrism). PROCEEDINGS OF THE AMERICAN PHILOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, Mar, 1999, V143(N1):73-85. Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley At 12:00 AM 02/14/2000 +0000, you wrote: >The Aryabhatiya of Aryabhata (b. 473) contains the well-known statement >about the earth rotating; followed (annoyingly) by a statement about the >earth being central and the stars rotating. Anyhow, this was certainly >controversial in the jyotisa tradition, and later writers such as >Varahamihira criticised Aryabhata roundly for deviating from the true >opinion of the Puranas and other such texts. > >See Pingree, Jyotihsastra: astral and mathematical literaure, Wiesbaden >1981, for an orientation in this literature. > >-- >Dominik Wujastyk >Founder, INDOLOGY list. > From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 14 00:51:17 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 19:51:17 -0500 Subject: One more try re: AnusvAra in Vedic Recitation Message-ID: <161227055950.23782.17953656654150001186.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, On Feb. 7 I posted a query to the list "Realization of anusvAra in Vedic Recitation" trying to find out the reasons for the differences in recitation between two tapes of the Rudram from the taittiriya samhita. Tape A by a Brahmin priest from the town Satara in Maharashtra recites anusvAra before sibilants, r and h as [ga] (with some exceptions detailed in my posting of Feb. 7). Tape B recites anusvAra before sibilants, r and h as [gum] (with a very few exceptions detailed in my posting of Feb. 7). To complicate matters a chanting book in roman transliteration which explicitly writes in the recitation of anusvAra (i.e. it writes ga_NAnA"M tvA ga_Napa'tigum havAmahe for ga_NAnA"M tvA ga_Napa'tiM havAmahe etc.)and it agrees exactly with tape B but in the introduction it says it was made from recitations by the Brahmin priest who produced tape A (and one other Brahmin priest). Again to complicate matters Wayne Howard in "Vedic Recitation in Varanasi" says that anusvAra before sibilants and r is recited as [ghuM] in the mAdhyandina yajur veda school but makes no mention about anusvAra in the taittiriya samhita school. Any information (no matter how elementary) any list members knowledgable about vedic recitation can give me will be useful. Such as: How is anusvAra recited in the taittiriya samhita school? Is the difference in recitation of anusvAra between tapes A and B which I've detailed above (with more details in my posting of Feb. 7) within the range of regional variations (if there is such a thing) of recitation within the taittiriya samhita school or because of some other reason? Many thanks in advance, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Road Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE Sun Feb 13 19:00:28 2000 From: koenraad.elst at PANDORA.BE (Koenraad Elst) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 20:00:28 +0100 Subject: Talageri's new book Message-ID: <161227055941.23782.17676600637302585874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > Where does Talageri suggest PIE originated and when/how did it come to > India? He locates the PIE Urheimat in Uttar Pradesh / Haryana. Unless Dr. Wujastyk gives a go-ahead signal, I will not answer further arguments or questions on the AIT debate. K. Elst From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Feb 13 19:26:23 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 20:26:23 +0100 Subject: SV: Aryan Panzers (pt. 2) Message-ID: <161227055943.23782.8483342841634200875.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal [SMTP:vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 13. februar 2000 18:31: > the exception of some). You can ask Dr. Fosse for further clarifications. Dear Vishal Agarwal, I remember the clarifications you mention here from a private exchange of emails, but I am afraid that your email on the subject died in a computer accident some time ago. You must therefore give clarifications in this matter to Prof. Witzel yourself. Since you keep records, I suggest that you copy the relevant passage in your email to me and send it to Prof. Witzel. I will not mind you doing so even if our exchange was private. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Feb 14 01:42:51 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 20:42:51 -0500 Subject: Aryan Panzers (pt. 2) Message-ID: <161227055952.23782.9046427822901306478.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Well, the list appears to have been over-run once again by the hate-mongers. Scholarship will survive this, of course, and so will the list, I trust. But as a student of Indology, I am fearful about the state of intellectual discourse in India these days, if it continues to be dominated by hate-filled voices like these. George Thompson From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Sun Feb 13 20:42:36 2000 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 21:42:36 +0100 Subject: Thirukkural and Buddhism Message-ID: <161227055958.23782.3525638380642519669.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Tiruvalluvar's [verse 3:] ... "Those who seek refuge in the one who >walked on lotus-flowers will enjoy happiness in the world free from >suffering for a long time" ... Even Buddhist schoolboys know the legend of >the Buddha is depicted as seated on a lotus. So the reference inverse 3 >should be to the Buddha.< Why is walking taken as meaning sitting/seating? Is there any account of the Buddha walking on lotuses? In Jain literature one finds the word pu.spa-caara.na, which is explained as ' a .rddhi accepted in Jainism; when a person, typically a saaadhu, has this extraordinary capability, he can walk over flowers without touching them -- without causing the suffering of jiivas in them' (Siddhantashastri, Balchandra. 1970?s. Jain Lak?a??vali, p. II.718.) > in Jainism and Hinduism there is no parallel human personality to whom >the attributes of Adi-Bhagavat given by Tiruvalluvar in the first ten >verses are applicable.< Note the description of Kapila, the source of Saa.mkhya philosophy, collected on p. 108 of the Saa.mkhya volume (ed. G. J. Larson and R.S. Bhattacharya) in the Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies series (ed. Karl H. Potter). Kapila is aadi-vidvaan, bhagavat, and born with dharma, j;naana, vairaagya and ai?varya. He is spoken of as having compassion (kaaru.nya) for the world. >Buddhist poets were foremost in Tamil literature during the hey-day of >Buddhism.< Any names other than the ones mentioned in the posting? >They [= Mahaayaana Buddhists] have deified him and made him Adi-Buddha or >Adi-Bhagava an emanating from the primordial source of the universe.< Is the term Aadi-bhagava attested in Mahaayaana literature? From ramakris at EROLS.COM Mon Feb 14 02:42:55 2000 From: ramakris at EROLS.COM (Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 00 21:42:55 -0500 Subject: on zankara's date - 2 Message-ID: <161227055956.23782.14710462393022667974.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dr. Palaniappan wrote: <<>> I apologize for the long delay in reply. I have been swamped with work. Hackers comment regarding Vacaspati Mishra is quite incorrect and has been refuted by many Indologists. Eg, Prof. Kunjunni Raja says "Prof Hacker's argument that Vacaspati refers to the Nyayamanjari and must therefore be later than Jayanta Bhatta need not be taken seriously, since it is now clear that the Nyayamanjari referred to by him is not Jayantabhatta's work, but that of Vacaspati's teacher Trilochana." That's from the foreword to the "Bhamati of Vacaspati," by Prof Suryanarayana Sastri and Prof C. Kunhan Raja. The same point is also made in Potters Enyclopedia. Another interesting paper in the literature is S.Sankaranarayanan, "The colophon in the Bhamati: A New Study," ALB, Vol 49, pp.34-61. I think it's a very good paper. The author also refers the works of Vacaspati called nyAyashUcInibandha and nyAyasUtroddhAra which have dates in their colophons. He has determined that the date in the former must be a scribal mistake and the date given in the latter is 906AD. The good thing about this paper is that it takes into account the relative chronology of udoyatakara, Vacaspati and udayana. None of the other previous works on Vacaspatis date have taken this into account in a proper manner. I had a hearty laugh when I read the statement by someone about what "respectable Indologists" think of Vacaspatis date in a reply to a good point made by Vidyasankar about the confusion of historical dates in India. Of course, this kind of snide remark, without properly reading the literature is nothing new. We have even had the problem of suspicious attacks from phony web e-mail accounts in the past. Anyway, there's nothing so certain about Vacaspatis date. Even Potter refers to the two different dates, but does not make any comment on "certainty" in Vacaspatis date. One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post. Nakamura comes to the conclusion that Bhaskara's bhedAbheda must ahve been more important than advaita and that the latter came to prominence only later, by examining Buddhist texts. Your study certainly contradicts that, at least in Tamil Nadu. So, it's certainly an important addition to studying the history and relative importance of various schools. It should make a convincing argument for taking into account inscriptions when studying the history of schools like advaita. Most studies concentrate on philology. Rama From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 14 00:00:53 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 00:00:53 +0000 Subject: language, literature, and heliocentrism in India In-Reply-To: <20000212021743.5150.qmail@web3102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <161227055947.23782.18039599003591170346.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Aryabhatiya of Aryabhata (b. 473) contains the well-known statement about the earth rotating; followed (annoyingly) by a statement about the earth being central and the stars rotating. Anyhow, this was certainly controversial in the jyotisa tradition, and later writers such as Varahamihira criticised Aryabhata roundly for deviating from the true opinion of the Puranas and other such texts. See Pingree, Jyotihsastra: astral and mathematical literaure, Wiesbaden 1981, for an orientation in this literature. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 14 00:21:50 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 00:21:50 +0000 Subject: Fw: Re: Oedipus in Sanskrit? In-Reply-To: <002301bf7643$2ad5bc00$db037bd4@pandora.be> Message-ID: <161227055948.23782.14428090706286975481.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Koenraad Elst wrote: > All the same, the ban [by Wujastyk] on discussion of such a pivotal > question for the whole Indology field risks receiving a footnote > mention in some future Blunder Book of how academics missed yet > another train of scientific progress. I do not appreciate your criticism, especially since it is a false and somewhat sly misrepresentation of my policy for this list on this matter. The ban was imposed, and is still in force, not because this is a topic unworthy of discussion, but for the reason that many people seem unable to discuss it without becoming rude and boorish. My ban is for reasons of decency and good manners, which I will enforce on this list to the best of my abilities. Anyone who does not feel that basic politeness is a fundamental value has no place in this discussion list. I'm only sorry that I do not have time to be even more draconian in my insistence on good manners in this this list. There are many vociferous contributors who frankly waste our time and devalue the discussion by their angry, insulting, and inaccurate contributions. You know who you are. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 14 13:23:42 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 08:23:42 -0500 Subject: One more try re: AnusvAra in Vedic Recitation In-Reply-To: <20000214005117.96436.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227055966.23782.8889666548028516785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Recitation of anusvaara (or often, anunnaasika, as per Vedic school) before y ,r, l, v, z, S, s, h varies greatly over all parts of the subcontinent according to school and region. Details on anunasika pronunciation (often ghu~, but also ga, or g*, where * = schwa) in: * Anunasika in medieval Veda tradition. (Materials on Vedic Sakhas 3) IIJ 25, 1983, 190. <> * for several Vedic texts, see (with an endless array of misprints, better ask the author for a fresh copy): On some unknown systems of marking the Vedic accents. Vishvabandhu Commemoration Volume = Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 12, 1974, 472-508 cf. also: this paper for Gujarat, Maharastra : * Materialien zu den vedischen Schulen: I. Ueber die Caraka-Schule. Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik, StII, 8/9, 1982, 171-240 for Kashmir see: * Kashmiri Manuscripts and Pronunciation. In: Ikari, Y. (ed.) A study of the Nilamata - Aspects of Hinduism in Ancient Kashmir -. Kyoto: Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 1994, 1-53 for Orissa see: * Die muendliche Tradition der Paippaladins von Orissa. Festgabe fuer K. Hoffmann, I. = Muenchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft, MSS, 44, 1985, 259-287 and cf.: * Die Atharvaveda-Tradition und die Paippalada-Samhita. ZDMG, Supplementband VI, (XXII. Deutscher Orientalistentag, Tuebingen, March 1983), Stuttgart 1985, 256-271 Hope that helps. MW ============================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Mon Feb 14 14:16:24 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 09:16:24 -0500 Subject: One more try re: AnusvAra in Vedic Recitation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227055968.23782.701403006978893679.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Since the recitational practices of one Vedic tradition have a tendency of influencing the recitation of texts which originally do not belong to that tradition, one finds this *gu~/ga.m/ etc. pronunciation of the Anusvaara in unexpected places. While reciting the line sa.mhitaa sandhi.h in the Ga.napati-Atharva-Ziir.sa, I was taught to recite it as sagu~hitaa sandhi.h. Normally the pronunciation of the anusvaara in this environment in the general Marathi area is sa~vhitaa. Actually my wife asked me the other day why I was reciting this line as sagu~hitaa sandhi.h. To come to think of it, it is possible that the people who taught me may have been influenced by the Taittiriiya pronunciation, though my own family is a Rgvedi family. A popular text like the Ga.napati-Atharva-Ziir.sa is recited by people of all Vedic affiliations and its pronunciation would likely be affected by all sorts of variant ways. As I was growing up in Pune, I had the opportunity to join my father several times for the Zraava.nii ("renewal of the sacred thread") rite, and this particular rite was attended by Brahmins from various different affiliations, the Zaakala Rgvedins and Aapastamba/Hira.nyakezin Taittiriiyas. Everyone would perform the common parts together, but the main officiating priest would issue separate instructions where these schools differed from each other. This confluence of various traditions in the performance of rites would be a prime occasion where there would be mutual influences in pronunciation and other areas. Best, Madhav Deshpande On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > Recitation of anusvaara (or often, anunnaasika, as per Vedic school) before > y ,r, l, v, z, S, s, h varies greatly over all parts of the subcontinent > according to school and region. > > Details on anunasika pronunciation (often ghu~, but also ga, or g*, where > * = schwa) in: > > * Anunasika in medieval Veda tradition. (Materials on Vedic Sakhas 3) IIJ > 25, 1983, 190. > < materials from Nepal to Madras>> > > * for several Vedic texts, see (with an endless array of misprints, better > ask the author for a fresh copy): > > On some unknown systems of marking the Vedic accents. Vishvabandhu > Commemoration Volume = Vishveshvaranand Indological Journal 12, 1974, > 472-508 > > cf. also: this paper for Gujarat, Maharastra : > > * Materialien zu den vedischen Schulen: I. Ueber die Caraka-Schule. Studien > zur Indologie und Iranistik, StII, 8/9, 1982, 171-240 > > for Kashmir see: > > * Kashmiri Manuscripts and Pronunciation. In: Ikari, Y. (ed.) A study of > the Nilamata - Aspects of Hinduism in Ancient Kashmir -. Kyoto: Institute > for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 1994, 1-53 > > for Orissa see: > > * Die muendliche Tradition der Paippaladins von Orissa. Festgabe fuer K. > Hoffmann, I. = Muenchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft, MSS, 44, 1985, > 259-287 > > and cf.: > > * Die Atharvaveda-Tradition und die Paippalada-Samhita. ZDMG, > Supplementband VI, (XXII. Deutscher Orientalistentag, Tuebingen, March > 1983), Stuttgart 1985, 256-271 > > > Hope that helps. MW > > > > ============================================================== > Michael Witzel > Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University > 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 > > ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) > home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm > > Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs > From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 14 09:48:27 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 09:48:27 +0000 Subject: Talageri's new book In-Reply-To: <002401bf7654$9dc929c0$db037bd4@pandora.be> Message-ID: <161227055960.23782.11895322279816716374.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Koenraad Elst wrote: > Unless Dr. Wujastyk gives a go-ahead signal, I will not answer further > arguments or questions on the AIT debate. Thank you for remaining sensitized to this issue. I do not give a go-ahead for AIT debates at present, for the reasons given yesterday. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 14 09:51:46 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 09:51:46 +0000 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation In-Reply-To: <38A84139.3CBFE3C@he.net> Message-ID: <161227055962.23782.15408137924704178559.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a detailed description in the Susrutasamhita of the procedure to be used by a vaidya when piercing a baby's ears, as well as information on repairing torn earlobes. Full translation and !!diagrams!! (from Majno) in my book _The Roots of Ayurveda_. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Feb 14 17:54:02 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 09:54:02 -0800 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation Message-ID: <161227055938.23782.10436685237916872287.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Patricia Meredith Greer wrote: > > You might look at various writings by David White > regarding the Nath Siddhas, who "bore" their ears, for > esoteric reasons -- in particular White's Body>. > > Patricia > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:12:02 -0800 Paul Kekai Manansala Thank you for the reference. I will check it out as soon as possible. In the astrological work, Kalaprakasika, it gives instructions for earboring of children in their first year and states that a copper needle and white thread must be used. These are the kinds of notices I'm looking for and also on methods of stretching out the earlobe. And diverging to a related topic, given the importance of copper in brahmin rituals as discussed by SP here sometime ago, are there any new theories out there connecting the development or roots of brahminism with the Chalcolithic? I believe that Kosambi was the first to suggest this connecting also the importance of the zebu cattle and other cultural characteristics. Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Feb 14 18:15:11 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 10:15:11 -0800 Subject: Talageri's new book Message-ID: <161227055940.23782.4355876540101801022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst wrote: Talageri's > book has a fair amount of the kind of evidence Prof. Witzel just asked for: > how the development from PIE to Indo-Iranian etc. took place within India. > That's a little different than earlier indigenous Aryan theories which claimed (or seemed to claim) that PIE originated in India. Where does Talageri suggest PIE originated and when/how did it come to India? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From kekai at JPS.NET Mon Feb 14 20:01:06 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 12:01:06 -0800 Subject: Talageri's new book Message-ID: <161227055945.23782.15414718649391051128.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Koenraad Elst wrote: > > Paul Kekai Manansala wrote: > > > Where does Talageri suggest PIE originated and when/how did it come to > > India? > > He locates the PIE Urheimat in Uttar Pradesh / Haryana. > That's a bit problematic. The standard method for this type of thing, which I think is fairly logical when actually applied consistenly (without tons of sun theory exceptions) would have the different families diverging from the same center. Thus, if you accept the IE classification as it stands, you would look to an area where Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Anatolian, etc. appear to diverge. That would indicate Anatolia or maybe a little bit to the east. If PIE originated in Haryana/UP, you find a truncated rather recent offshoot to the east, but this long highly divergent arm to the west. How does he deal with this exception to a very widespread method (in linguistics, genetics, etc.)? > Unless Dr. Wujastyk gives a go-ahead signal, I will not answer further > arguments or questions on the AIT debate. > Are we really discussing AIT here? If so, I have no problem with closing the discussion. -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Mon Feb 14 11:07:59 2000 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 12:07:59 +0100 Subject: on zankara's date - Message-ID: <161227055971.23782.11486251716482677883.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote: >Another interesting paper in the literature is S.Sankaranarayanan, "The colophon in the Bhamati: A New Study," ALB, Vol 49, pp.34-61. I think it's a very good paper. The author also refers the works of Vacaspati called nyAyashUcInibandha and nyAyasUtroddhAra which have dates in their colophons. He has determined that the date in the former must be a scribal mistake and the date given in the latter is 906AD.< In two of my recent papers I have tried to make some new deductions about Vaacaspati's life and works. (I have not dealt with the problem of his date since I had nothing new to offer in that respect.). One paper "Vacaspati-misra's Tattva-samiksa and the last two verses in Yukti-dipika manuscripts? has appeared in Adyar Library Bulletin 62 (1998):125-165. The other "The Prologue and Epilogue Verses of Vacaspati-misra-I? is forthcoming in Rivista degli Studi Orientali. In both these, I have pointed out the weaknesses of Sankaranarayanan's paper mentioned above and also of a subsequent paper of his in ALB 1997. Sankaranarayanan is unaware that there were two Vaacaspati-mi;sras. The Nyaaya-sutroddhaara could be ascribed to the 15th century Vaacaspati-mi;sra, although the status of the text is not as certain as one would wish. From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Feb 14 21:18:26 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 16:18:26 -0500 Subject: chariots Message-ID: <161227055973.23782.7612001582422229286.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> MW> I invite Messrs. Wani, Subrahmanya, Agarwal, et al., to stand still and hold their position in front of quickly approaching (modern) horse race 'chariots', or in front of a line of police on horseback (even without Lathi charge), and then report back to the list ... if they are able to do so after this little experiment. What will that prove? Will the observers spontaneously learn sanskrit after seeing horse riders. Some of the observers might want to aqquire horses and breed them though. The symbolism of the cross and christianity is now universal but not the aramaic language spoken by christ. Similarly the importance of the horse or its religious symbolism need not be associated with one language. We ofcourse imagine that north india at this time was mostly rural with no centralized entity like the church which was responsible for the spread of latin. In any case latin was never a commoners language like pali. Also vedic supposedly did not have a script or a literate target population to aid its spread. IE languages remained as elite minority languages in west asia for a brief period and never made it as a peoples language. >???From a commoners point of view what was the payoff for learning an IE language? protection from cattle thiefs? rather elaborate I think. regards R Banerjee From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Feb 14 21:34:52 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 16:34:52 -0500 Subject: fatehpur sikri Message-ID: <161227055975.23782.12972713681185105371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> http://www.expressindia.com/news/01419100.htm pre mughal finds from near akbars fort at fatehpur. From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Mon Feb 14 11:36:25 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 17:06:25 +0530 Subject: Dahilaxmi library Message-ID: <161227055964.23782.3953060897720056277.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > Dear Prof. Dave, > > I am very interested to learn that you are involved in running this > important library of Sanskrit manuscripts. > > A list of the contents of the library was compiled in the 1950s by Prof. > V. Raghavan, and that list was included in the material compiled in the > New Catalogus Catalogorum. But it would still be of great interest to be > able to study the original list of Raghavan, since that is the only > practical way to get a birds-eye view of the contents of this important > Gujarat collection of Skt. MSS. > > Is there a copy of Raghavan's list at the library? And if so, would you > and the other members of the library board be willing to publish it? > > Yours, > -- > Dominik Wujastyk > Founder, INDOLOGY list. Dear Dr. Wujastyk, Kindly bear with me for a couple of days. The list mentioned by you is being located and a soft copy is to be prepared. I am also trying if a later list (when we computerized the library) can be converted and made available as a text file. -- Himanshu Dave ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Tue Feb 15 02:49:53 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 18:49:53 -0800 Subject: One more try re: AnusvAra in Vedic Recitation Message-ID: <161227055979.23782.15644904994626791476.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier wrote: > Tape B recites anusvAra before sibilants, r and h as [gum] (with a very few > exceptions detailed in my posting of Feb. 7). > > To complicate matters a chanting book in roman transliteration which > explicitly writes in the recitation of anusvAra (i.e. it writes ga_NAnA"M > tvA ga_Napa'tigum havAmahe for ga_NAnA"M tvA ga_Napa'tiM havAmahe etc.)and > it agrees exactly with tape B but in the introduction it says it was made > from recitations by the Brahmin priest who produced tape A (and one other > Brahmin priest). Is this just due to a typo... or a clear mistake. > Again to complicate matters Wayne Howard in "Vedic Recitation in Varanasi" > says that anusvAra before sibilants and r is recited as [ghuM] in the > mAdhyandina yajur veda school but makes no mention about anusvAra in the > taittiriya samhita school. The Taittiriya school seems to recite the anusvAra with the "ghuM" on such occasions, as far as I know !! That is how I have always heard "gaNapatiM havAmahe" recited by Taittiriya reciters. I am surprised that Wayne Howard doesn't have any note on this, but he may not have studied or recorded it much since it is one of the most readily available and documented schools. I have a few tapes of Vedic recitation by traditional scholars. One among these is a tape recording of a LP from the Unesco Collection entited "A Musical Anthology of the Orient" made by Alain Danielou in 1950-51. The Taittiriya reciter, Venkatesha GhanapaaThi of Kanchipuram, recites Taittiriya Samhita 2,2,6,5,50. He consistently uses "ghum" in the various vikritis whenever he recites the phrase "(pra)hiNuyAt nirRtiM"... so in the jaTA, it is recited as "hiNuyAnnirRtiM nirRti(-ghu-)MhiNuyAt hiNuyAnnirRtiM". -Srini. From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 15 04:06:19 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 23:06:19 -0500 Subject: One more try re: AnusvAra in Vedic Recitation Message-ID: <161227055981.23782.12805526058518336820.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Srini Pichumani wrote: >Harry Spier wrote: > > > Tape B recites anusvAra before sibilants, r and h as [gum] (with a very >few > > exceptions detailed in my posting of Feb. 7). > > > > To complicate matters a chanting book in roman transliteration which > > explicitly writes in the recitation of anusvAra (i.e. it writes >ga_NAnA"M > > tvA ga_Napa'tigum havAmahe for ga_NAnA"M tvA ga_Napa'tiM havAmahe >etc.)and > > it agrees exactly with tape B but in the introduction it says it was >made > > from recitations by the Brahmin priest who produced tape A (and one >other > > Brahmin priest). > >Is this just due to a typo... or a clear mistake. The chanting book agrees with my description of tape A's realization of anusvAra before sibilants, r and h in my posting of Feb. 7. I.e. it writes gum (not ghuM)in all cases. It also agrees with the two exceptions to the above on the tape (the one case where the tape has [gim] it writes gim and the one case of where the tape has [gUm] it writes gUm. Regards, Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York 12747 USA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM Tue Feb 15 07:17:32 2000 From: srini_pichumani at MENTORG.COM (Srini Pichumani) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 00 23:17:32 -0800 Subject: One more try re: AnusvAra in Vedic Recitation Message-ID: <161227055983.23782.16127156034077456570.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Harry Spier wrote: > The chanting book agrees with my description of tape A's realization of > anusvAra before sibilants, r and h in my posting of Feb. 7. I.e. it writes > gum (not ghuM)in all cases. It also agrees with the two exceptions to the > above on the tape (the one case where the tape has [gim] it writes gim and > the one case of where the tape has [gUm] it writes gUm. OK, by now, I am reeling from the A's and B's... I looked at your earlier post and your recent one... you seemed to have changed the order of what is Tape A and what is Tape B in your e-mails... anyway, let A be ;-) Here are some more data points for you to consider. In the Taittiriya recitation of reciters from Tamil Nadu, where this s'AkhA is preponderant, the realization is mostly "gum" (the aspiration was a typo on my part). However, in compound words such as "asaMsthita", the realization is close to "asa -gg[*]- sthita"... where the [*] is a vowel that sounds to me like a "a" or a "half-u". Significantly, there is no "m" sound at all. This is the way I hear TS 6.3.1.6 recited on Staal and Levy's LP recordings "The Four Vedas" (Asch Mankind Series Album # AHM 4126). Also, in a recording of Vazhuthur Rajagopala Sarma reciting Navagraha mantras, the mantra to Budha contains the phrase "punaH kRNvaMstvaa" (from TS 4.7.13.5) which is recited as "punaH kRNva -gg[*] - stvaa". On Staal's recording, there is also a Nambudiri Adhvaryu reciting at an agniSToma ritual... he ends his address with the words "oM studhvam" recited as "o-gga-studhvam". -Srini. From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Feb 15 18:14:16 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 10:14:16 -0800 Subject: Earplugs and ear elongation Message-ID: <161227055970.23782.18419404301540742648.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > There is a detailed description in the Susrutasamhita of the procedure to > be used by a vaidya when piercing a baby's ears, as well as information on repairing torn earlobes. Full translation and !!diagrams!! (from Majno) in my book _The Roots of Ayurveda_. > Danke, and the diagrams are a plus! Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From rpeck at NECA.COM Tue Feb 15 15:20:36 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 10:20:36 -0500 Subject: Information request Message-ID: <161227055990.23782.1841346333948371241.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidya Kamat, I translate the ParAtriMshikA as stating that the ideal of Yoga is to obtain androgyny as exemplifed by Rudra. The yogi becomes a yogini because of releasing the lower feminine power. The Hathayoga pradipika describes the kanda as the source of feminine power that does feminize. Breasts may then become the outer manifesting of this higher power. Bob Peck -----Original Message----- From: Vidya Kamat To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 5:04 AM Subject: Information request >Dear List Members, > > >I am currently involved in a project and searching for material on >'breast' motif in Indian myths and folktales. I am looking at some of >the concepts regarding male breasts as in the case of SarasvAN, who is >described as having breasts. > >Once during a conversation, Dr.S.A.Dange (who passed away in October >1999), mentioned that Siva is said to have breasts according to a myth. >However I have not been able to trace the source of his information. I >would like to know if any of the list members have any idea of this >source. > >I had also seen a miniature painting showing Siva holding two jars in >place of his breasts. I do not know if this image is in any way a >reference to the same myth. > >I will appreaciate and be thankful for any information/ >comments/observations on male/female breasts in context to >classical/tribal myths originating from the Indian subcontinent. > >Thanks in advance >Vidya > From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Tue Feb 15 17:47:39 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 12:47:39 -0500 Subject: chariots Message-ID: <161227055993.23782.14559989717742358743.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > In any case latin was never a commoners language like pali. Isn't there more than one error in this one statement? RB>I was thinking of latin being used in places like england for ritual purposes. The various prakrits and apabhramshas were considered commoners languages. > From a commoners point of view what was the payoff for learning an > IE language? protection from cattle thiefs? rather elaborate I > think. I hope this question is not meant as a rhetorical denial of language migration. We could go on asking many variations on it, e.g.: what was the payoff for learning an IE language among the pre-Roman, non-IE Iberians? RB> There was no payoff, they were probably surrounded by IE speakers. Is this believed believed to be the case in north india where the migrants are belived to be a small trickle? Were they as organized as the romans? In general Language spread by demic diffusion sounds more plausible for early periods. chariots (even light ones) are expensive elaborate things and hints at a settled, organized society which has a network of timber supliers a workforce of builders and people who actually use them. As far as I know the scythians and sarmatians never used chariots in battle. The andronovo chariots are probably a product of settled townships and kingdoms not nomadic warriors. It is easy to belive that horsemen came through the khyber pass but not chariots. The migrants would need to regroup and build chariots with local help and resources. Isnt it more likely that chariot building is a west asian import where there was such large scale use? regards R banerjee From reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Tue Feb 15 21:44:55 2000 From: reimann at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Luis Gonzalez-Reimann) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 13:44:55 -0800 Subject: chariots In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3C2B@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227055997.23782.7799098697653851284.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> At 04:18 PM 02/14/2000 -0500, R Banerjee wrote: >latin. In any case latin was never a commoners language like pali. Yes it was, in a form called Vulgar Latin. I suggest you do some reading on the origin of Romance languages. Best, Luis Gonzalez-Reimann University of California, Berkeley From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Feb 15 12:58:37 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 13:58:37 +0100 Subject: chariots In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3C2B@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227055987.23782.11294360586472828260.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On 14 Feb 00, at 16:18, Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > In any case latin was never a commoners language like pali. Isn't there more than one error in this one statement? > From a commoners point of view what was the payoff for learning an > IE language? protection from cattle thiefs? rather elaborate I > think. I hope this question is not meant as a rhetorical denial of language migration. We could go on asking many variations on it, e.g.: what was the payoff for learning an IE language among the pre-Roman, non-IE Iberians? RZ From rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU Tue Feb 15 19:11:02 2000 From: rah2k at UNIX.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU (Robert A. Hueckstedt) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 14:11:02 -0500 Subject: Job opening Message-ID: <161227055995.23782.16938206518547212591.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Assistant Professor In South Asian Literature, Gender Studies, and Hindi. The University of Virginia seeks candidates for a three-year, full-time, non-tenure-track position at the Assistant Professor rank in South Asian Literature, Gender Studies, and Hindi. The successful candidate should have the PhD in hand, teaching experience in these or similar courses, and at least near-native fluency in Hindi. The three undergraduate, semester-long courses in South Asian literature, with major reference to Gender Studies in at least one of them, can be creations of the candidate. The two semester-long Hindi courses will be at the second-year level. Interested candidates should send a letter, CV, sample course descriptions (at least a paragraph and with a proposed reading list), and three letters of reference to: Professor Robert A. Hueckstedt, Head of the Search Committee, Asian and Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures, B27 Cabell Hall, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia 22903. Deadline for receipt of applications is March 20, 2000. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply. The University of Virginia is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer. From davinci at VSNL.COM Tue Feb 15 09:57:11 2000 From: davinci at VSNL.COM (Vidya Kamat) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 15:27:11 +0530 Subject: Information request Message-ID: <161227055984.23782.13040939409551197693.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear List Members, I am currently involved in a project and searching for material on 'breast' motif in Indian myths and folktales. I am looking at some of the concepts regarding male breasts as in the case of SarasvAN, who is described as having breasts. Once during a conversation, Dr.S.A.Dange (who passed away in October 1999), mentioned that Siva is said to have breasts according to a myth. However I have not been able to trace the source of his information. I would like to know if any of the list members have any idea of this source. I had also seen a miniature painting showing Siva holding two jars in place of his breasts. I do not know if this image is in any way a reference to the same myth. I will appreaciate and be thankful for any information/ comments/observations on male/female breasts in context to classical/tribal myths originating from the Indian subcontinent. Thanks in advance Vidya From kekai at JPS.NET Tue Feb 15 23:41:35 2000 From: kekai at JPS.NET (Paul Kekai Manansala) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 15:41:35 -0800 Subject: chariots Message-ID: <161227055977.23782.4664545508793393156.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Rajarshi Banerjee wrote: > > MW> I invite Messrs. Wani, Subrahmanya, Agarwal, et al., to stand still and > hold their position in front of quickly approaching (modern) horse race > 'chariots', or in front of a line of police on horseback (even without Lathi > charge), and then report back to the list ... if they are able to do so > after this little experiment. > > What will that prove? Will the observers spontaneously learn sanskrit after > seeing horse riders. Some of the observers might want to aqquire horses and > breed them though. > Reportedly, Alexander's horses fled in panic at the site of battle elephants. I never investigated but did the Harappans have war elephants (aboriginal panzers)? Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala -- Check out http://AsiaPacificUniverse.com/ From yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU Tue Feb 15 13:36:06 2000 From: yavass at YV1041.SPB.EDU (Yaroslav Vassilkov) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 16:36:06 +0300 Subject: Information request In-Reply-To: <38A922F7.3FCD9DD9@vsnl.com> Message-ID: <161227055988.23782.2770191822466766403.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Tue, 15 Feb 100 12:57 +0300 MSK Vidya Kamat wrote to INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK: ..... Dr.S.A.Dange (who passed away in October > 1999) Do you mean Dr. Sadashiv Ambadas Dange? And don't you know about any Obituaries in Internet or elsewhere? --- Yaroslav Vassilkov (yavass at YV1041.spb.edu) Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:33 +0300 MSK From tarekwani at USA.COM Tue Feb 15 23:42:27 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 00 18:42:27 -0500 Subject: Origins of Greek art Message-ID: <161227055999.23782.17607578884089354273.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> David Napier in his "Foreign Bodies" (UoCalifornia Press, 1992), with elaborations subsequently, sees Indic influence in the represenation of the Gorgon at Tiryns in the very beginning of Greek art. Does this mean that there was exchange between India and Greece in the 2nd millennium BC? Wouldn't that go counter to "standard" view? -Tarek --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 16 08:29:02 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 00:29:02 -0800 Subject: Vedic Recitations Message-ID: <161227056002.23782.13181626559117300333.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The note prepared by me below is not an advertisement and I have no financial interest in this excercise. The information is posted here because several Indologists have expressed an interest in the oral tradition of Vedas in the last few weeks. Please contact Mr. Krishnan directly. Vishal ________________ DELHI VEDIC TRUST Indologists in the United States (and elsewhere) have a wonderful opportunity for buying complete recordings of the traditional recitations of the 4 Vedas in 5 Shakhas (Sakalya RV, Madhyandina YV, Taittiriya YV, Kauthuma SV and Saunakiya AV)in more than 80 casettes of 90 minutes duration each. These recordings are done by the Delhi Vedic Trust. The URL of the trust is http://www.ahista.com/dvt/vedchant.html Dr. Krishnan, the founder of the Trust, is currently in the United States (in California) and he may be contacted at the telephone number 1-650 968 9585. He is expected to be in California till February 2000 end and has been here for the last 2 months or so. Best time to call is between 10 AM and 1 PM (PST). The English Translations of Devichand are provided free for YV, AV, SV. The translations of RV (by Pt. Satyakam Vidyalankar) have to be purchased separately and are optional. These translations are rapidly becomming standard English translations in India (especially those of Devichand). The recitations of AV are done by 4 disciples of the late great Atharvanika Pt. Vasudevlal Ramniklak Pancholi. Those outside the USA can also contact Dr. Krishnan via email link provided at the website of the Delhi Vedic Trust. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Feb 16 13:01:45 2000 From: harryspier at HOTMAIL.COM (Harry Spier) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 08:01:45 -0500 Subject: Thank you re: anusvAra in Vedic Recitation Message-ID: <161227056004.23782.8784577691754176161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Many thanks to: Michael Witzel, Madhav Deshpande, George Cardona, Shrini Pichumani, and Chris Wallis for the references and information about anusvAra in Vedic Recitation. Harry Spier 371 Brickman Rd. Hurleyville, New York USA 12747 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rpeck at NECA.COM Wed Feb 16 14:28:34 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 09:28:34 -0500 Subject: information request2 Message-ID: <161227056006.23782.11781018214863824142.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Q. is the kanda the prostrate or prolapsus uteri?. My experience is that the swelling of the kanda is noticeable following certain sadhanas in men and women. The surrounding tissue first softens with the stretching of asanas and becomes easily penetrated with the fingers as described. The swelling of the kanda (yonyarshas) precedes the protrusion of the inner linga. that is felt as the source of the kundalini. Women report the feeling and changes as masculine, while men report it as feminine hence androgyny.. regards, Bob Peck From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Wed Feb 16 05:51:47 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 11:21:47 +0530 Subject: Information request Message-ID: <161227056001.23782.13102922002677377235.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Bob Peck wrote: > .... The yogi becomes a yogini because of > releasing the lower feminine power. Please see ardhanArInarezvara below. > The Hathayoga pradipika describes the > kanda some people believe that Kanda refers to Prostate gland, possibly due to a procedure known as kandapidana (stimulating kanda). > as the source of feminine power are you talking about Kundalini? > that does feminize. If you mean by this that the Yogi loses interest in sex, it may be acceptable, but not if you mean physical feminization. > > Breasts may then > become the outer manifesting of this higher power. > About what Vidya wrote : > From: Vidya Kamat > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 5:04 AM > Subject: Information request > > >Dear List Members, > ... ... ... > >the concepts regarding male breasts as in the case of SarasvAN, who is > >described as having breasts. > > > >Once during a conversation, Dr.S.A.Dange (who passed away in October > >1999), mentioned that Siva is said to have breasts according to a myth. By any chance you are not talking about ArdhanArInarezvara, because if so, then it is very clear. It has philosophical significance. > > >However I have not been able to trace the source of his information. I > >would like to know if any of the list members have any idea of this > >source. > > > >I had also seen a miniature painting showing Siva holding two jars in > >place of his breasts. I do not know if this image is in any way a > >reference to the same myth. You might have seen a minature painting of Dhanvantari (Azvinau), because that dual god is generally shown with a jar of Oshadhi (medicines?). Indian iconographers would show breast as breats, they did not have any inhibitions. Best wishes, -- Himanshu Dave From rpeck at NECA.COM Wed Feb 16 19:18:22 2000 From: rpeck at NECA.COM (Bob Peck) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 14:18:22 -0500 Subject: Information Request Message-ID: <161227056012.23782.9961665423985104596.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Vidya Kamat, I had an interest similar to yours and could find no direct references and in fact became aware of the paucity of references to nipples as well as breasts which struck me as unusual since India seemed little concerned with genitalia. I did find however a great number of references to androgyny that artists seemed to depict with one breast on a god. regards Bob (not Prof.. amateur only) -----Original Message----- From: Vidya Kamat To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Information Request ><I translate the ParAtriMshikA as stating that the ideal of Yoga is to >obtain >androgyny as exemplifed by Rudra. The yogi becomes a yogini because of >releasing the lower feminine power. The Hathayoga pradipika describes >the >kanda as the source of feminine power that does feminize. Breasts may >then >become the outer manifesting of this higher power. >Bob Peck>> > >Dear Prof.Peck, >Your tip is very valuable. I shall go through the text for more details. > >The thrust of my query is focused on the area where a male divinity >appropriates the female organ ( i.e.breasts). > >It appears to be an ancient mythological construct. In RV SarasVAn is >said to have breasts so does the Egyptian river god HApi who is clearly >depicted with breast. Both the gods are river/water gods. > >I was just curious to know if there were any other references to male >god acquiring breasts and the contexts in which this occurs. > >Regards, >Vidya > From davinci at VSNL.COM Wed Feb 16 16:29:30 2000 From: davinci at VSNL.COM (Vidya Kamat) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 21:59:30 +0530 Subject: SA Dange Message-ID: <161227056010.23782.4611871052448954909.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yaroslav Vassilkov wrote: >>Do you mean Dr. Sadashiv Ambadas Dange? And don't you know about any Obituaries in Internet or elsewhere?<< Dear. Prof. Vassilkov. Yes I meant Dr. Sadashiv Ambadas Dange. I was in close contact with him during his last days. His obituaries were published in Dharmabharati, JOAS Bombay and other local newspapers. However I wouldn't know about internet publications on him. If you need any other information about him, I'll be glad to help you. Regards. Vidya From davinci at VSNL.COM Wed Feb 16 16:56:46 2000 From: davinci at VSNL.COM (Vidya Kamat) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 00 22:26:46 +0530 Subject: Information Request Message-ID: <161227056008.23782.11633314892451863837.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Dear Prof.Peck, Your tip is very valuable. I shall go through the text for more details. The thrust of my query is focused on the area where a male divinity appropriates the female organ ( i.e.breasts). It appears to be an ancient mythological construct. In RV SarasVAn is said to have breasts so does the Egyptian river god HApi who is clearly depicted with breast. Both the gods are river/water gods. I was just curious to know if there were any other references to male god acquiring breasts and the contexts in which this occurs. Regards, Vidya From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 17 20:54:11 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 00 15:54:11 -0500 Subject: Asian participants in Lib. Congress symposium Message-ID: <161227056013.23782.16237342086181902496.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The Library of Congress and New York University School of Law will jointly present: Democracy and the Rule of Law in a Changing World Order: An International Symposium Mar 7-10, Coolidge Auditorium, Library of Congress Several Asian or Asian-American speakers will be included (in order of their presentations): Hisashi Owada, president, Japan Institute of International Affairs Daniel Fung, senior counsel, Des Voeux Chambers, Hong Kong Jaydeva Uyangoda, senior lecturer in political science, University of Colombo Kiochiro Fujikura, professor, Tezukayama University, Nara Inder Kumar Gujral, M.P. and former prime minister of India, New Delhi Ratna Kapur, Center of Feminist Legal Research, New Delhi, and visiting professor, Cleveland-Marshall College of Law My apologies if any Asianists have been omitted. The schedule is available on the web at: Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Fri Feb 18 16:35:09 2000 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 00 11:35:09 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) Message-ID: <161227056015.23782.4499549655314663653.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Somewhere in a book some while back, i read of a fairly early-dated tradition wherein it was commonly attested that, for instance, it was evil to "write the veda's"--in other words, to put them in written form, and that this fundamentally damaged them due to the import and purity of sound in recitation. Aside from praises and lauds of recitation, I was given to understand that writing them was proscribed due to serious censure and wrong. The place I read of this noted, specifically as I recall it was viz. the UpaniSads. Does anyone have a traditional text citation (rather than a secondary source) on this? The older the better. Thanks in advance, folks, =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= John Robert Gardner ATLA-CERTR Emory University ------------------------------------------------------------ http://vedavid.org/diss/ "If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do, begin it. In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . " -Goethe From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Feb 18 16:45:11 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 00 11:45:11 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056017.23782.1855179462563214147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is a verse in one of the Zik.saa that I remember. It goes like this, and I remember only parts of it: giitii ziighrii zira.hkampii tathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h / .... .sa.d ete paa.thakaadhamaa.h // I will try to trace the verse in the sources available to me. It simultaneously admits that the Vedas were available in written format, and yet one should not be reading them from these written sources. During my recent visit to Pune, Mr. Dinkar Phadke, a Veda reciter trained in Varanasi, told me that his teachers in Varanasi always had the written text available for consultation, but that the South Indian reciters shunned the use of written sources completely. Madhav Deshpande On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, John Robert Gardner wrote: > Somewhere in a book some while back, i read of a fairly early-dated > tradition wherein it was commonly attested that, for instance, it was evil > to "write the veda's"--in other words, to put them in written form, and > that this fundamentally damaged them due to the import and purity of sound > in recitation. Aside from praises and lauds of recitation, I was given > to understand that writing them was proscribed due to serious censure > and wrong. The place I read of this noted, specifically as I recall > it was viz. the UpaniSads. Does anyone have a traditional text citation > (rather than a secondary source) on this? The older the better. > > Thanks in advance, folks, > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= > John Robert Gardner > ATLA-CERTR > Emory University > ------------------------------------------------------------ > http://vedavid.org/diss/ > "If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do, > begin it. In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . " -Goethe > From tarekwani at USA.COM Fri Feb 18 18:18:04 2000 From: tarekwani at USA.COM (Tarek Wani) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 00 13:18:04 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) Message-ID: <161227056019.23782.3911042464766531064.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Further to Madhav Deshpande's posting, the Atharvaveda 19.72.1 alludes to getting the Vedic book from a chest (koza). The injunction against writing must be properly deconstructed: It only means that the student should not use the written text as a crutch, and commit it to memory. Deconstruction also requires that words like pApa not be simplistically translated to evil. `pApa" is whatever is contingent on the body. The idea of learning Veda is to rise above such contingence and learning to be independent of the written text was a part of that training. -tAraka --------------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Fri Feb 18 20:46:30 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 00 15:46:30 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056021.23782.1715568711793717457.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following verse occurs as verse 32 of the Rk-version of the Paa.niniiya-Zik.saa (in Manomohan Ghosh edition, U of Calcutta, 1938, p. 42): giitii ziighrii zira.hkampii tathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h / anarthajJ~o 'lpaka.n.thaz ca .sa.d ete paa.thakaadhamaa.h // A variant of this verse with yathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h occurs in the YajJ~avalkya-zik.saa (verse 82, p. 137, ed. by Amaranaatha Zaastrii, 2019 Vikram, Varanasi). The Naaradiiya-zik.saa (2.19, p. 71, ed. by Usha Bhise, Bhandarkar O. R. Institute, 1986) reads: pustakapratyayaadhiita.m naadhiita.m gurusannidhau / raajate na sabhaamadhye jaaragarbhaa iva striya.h // Both of these passages assume that written Vedic texts are available, and yet using them carries a certain degree of disapproval by the community of reciters. Madhav Deshpande From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Fri Feb 18 21:04:19 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 00 21:04:19 +0000 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056023.23782.13357568576466098806.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > There is a verse in one of the Zik.saa that I remember. It goes like > this, and I remember only parts of it: > > giitii ziighrii zira.hkampii tathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h / > .... .sa.d ete paa.thakaadhamaa.h // > This is cited by WS Allen in Phonetics in Ancient India, I recall. I'm at home now, and the book is in my office. I can give the ref. if no-one else has by Monday. Best, DW From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 19 21:02:13 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 00 16:02:13 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? In-Reply-To: <000218131804BB.14335@weba6.iname.net> Message-ID: <161227056030.23782.15633839275500778218.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> > Atharvaveda 19.72.1 alludes to getting the Vedic book from a chest >(koza). The injunction against writing must be properly >deconstructed: It only means that the student should >not use the written text as a crutch, and commit it to memory. Rather, the above sentence must be 'deconstructed' (NB: a fashionable term of the last, now severely criticized century). It is a prima facie interpretation by a modern reader, and cannot represent the *original* intent of the verse. (see now also S. Bahulkar). As already Roth-Whitney have noted, this verse is indeed used at the end of Vedic study (as in Kauz.Suutra). However, Tarak W. would have to shine his light on three points: (a) the use of script and 'books' during the Vedic period) (b) any Atharvaveda and/or Vedic manuscripts before, c. 800 or 1000 CE (or of Upanisads by Sankara) (c) the habit of keeping such hypothetical Veda MSS ('books') in 'chests'. First, koza just does not only mean 'box, chest' but many other things as well, right down from the Rgveda; for example 'pail' (cf. the heavenly 'bucket', EJVS 1.1, 1995, http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs ) ((For some vague references to speech, mouth, bra'hman in connection with koza cf., however, RVKH 2.12.3b. oSThau ca dantaaz ca tathaiva jihvaa me tat zariiram mukharatnakozam // AV 10.2.27 = PS 16.159.10 tad vA atharvaNaH ziro devakozaH samubjitaH / tat prANo abhi rakSati ziro annam atho manaH // Vadh. Mantra Samhita prajaapater brahmakozaM, yad vizvakarmaa sahasraakSo 'py aubjad, tad ahaM prapadye // As for real 'chests/boxes', with the usual disdain for artisans ((except the contemporary "rocket engeneer", the rathakaara) : TB 3.4.10.1 nirRtyai kozakArIm ... )) Next, one cannot simply use the Vedic and post-Vedic (Skt) term koza and infer that it means a chest to keep one's manuscripts. Anyhow, where have MSS been kept in 'chests' in (ancient/medieval) India? Usually, just in cloth wrappings, if in any covers at all beyond wooden boards, and anywhere in the house from chimneys to gaarta-s, as some 19th century people called them. As P. Olivelle has already written, there is no evidence at all of writing even in the EARLY Upanishads. A written Veda text simply could and did not exist in Vedic times. The Indus script virtually disappeared after 1900 BCE , and script is not seen again until the 3rd cent. BCE (or, as some archaeologists now maintain, c. 500 BCE in Sri Lanka). Finally, AV 19.72 is a bad candidate for proof of a written AV 'book' in the Samhita period. It is the last hymn and the last verse of the Shaunaka version of the Atharvaveda. (For, Book 20 is, as is well known, a very late appendix to the Samhita, for the benefit of the Brahmanachamsin priest). The verse is also not found in the other version of AV, Paipp. Samh., and for that reason, too, it cannot conclusively be shown to belong to the oldest level of AV texts. It rather seems to be a late addition to the Shaunaka version, added in order to indicate closure of study, just as the first verse indicates, if we follow P. Thieme, a reference to sounds/speech in general, (and clearly, to properly remembering Vedic verses in particular). AV 19.72 may belong to such late Vedic texts as transmitted in Taitt.Up.1 (Mantras concerned with Veda study). ========================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Sat Feb 19 21:02:32 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 00 16:02:32 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (paapa) In-Reply-To: <000218131804BB.14335@weba6.iname.net> Message-ID: <161227056033.23782.1181400277548928994.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Deconstruction also requires that words like pApa not >be simplistically translated to evil. `pApa" is >whatever is contingent on the body. The idea of learning >Veda is to rise above such contingence and >learning to be independent of the written text was a >part of that training. This may be Tarak Wani's personal opinion, (NB: unsubstantiated by quotations or by references to research), but it is not born out by detailed investigations. Rahul P. Das has shown in his c. 150 pp. MA diss. (Hamburg 1985) that paapa is INDEED best translated as 'evil' (cf. also, for the historical development of the term, Tracing the Vedic Dialects in: Colette Caillat (ed.), Dialectes dans les litteratures indo-aryennes. Paris 1989, p. 97-264). If 'contingent on the body' implies impurity, illness and other evils 'sticking' to one's body, then this is correct (cf. the Atharvavedic 'apamarga' plant & sorcery). But TW's cryptic sentence may also be interpreted in other (Advaita? etc.) ways. -- However, how learning the (Atharva)veda texts leads to 'rise(?)' above 'contingence' is very much open to question. Even in modern Orissa, Atharvavedins are looked down upon, due to their connection with sorcery, and also due to some other local social facts. Of course, nobody disagrees with the fact that the oral transmission of Vedic texts in South Asia is unique among the world's cultures. =-=========== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs From Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR Sat Feb 19 15:16:53 2000 From: Boris.Oguibenine at EHESS.FR (Boris Oguibenine) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 00 16:16:53 +0100 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056025.23782.4077018707086871656.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A 15:46 18/02/00 -0500, vous avez ?crit : >The following verse occurs as verse 32 of the Rk-version of the >Paa.niniiya-Zik.saa (in Manomohan Ghosh edition, U of Calcutta, 1938, p. >42): > giitii ziighrii zira.hkampii tathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h / > anarthajJ~o 'lpaka.n.thaz ca .sa.d ete paa.thakaadhamaa.h // > This verse occurs also in Sarvasa.mmata-Zik.saa 36 (ed. & transl. A.O. Franke, G?ttingen, 1886), quoted Allen, Phonetics in Ancient India, p. 16, fn. 4 From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 19 17:06:36 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 00 22:36:36 +0530 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) Message-ID: <161227056026.23782.10989082409859610511.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Madhav, The variant from the Yaaj~nvalya Zik.saa is perhaps yathaa-likhita-paa.thaka.h instead of yathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h. For a correct recitation of the veda, it is necessary to learn it through oral transmission and the written text is just for help to the teacher. I have seen some times that those who do not memorize the text with accents and try to recite it with the help of the text are able to read the words but cannot pronounce the accents correctly. I recorded the Atharvaveda from Gujarat some years ago. The Pandit did not do his svaadhyaaya regularly. He tried to recite the text with the help of the printed one and made blunders in his recitation. Shrikant Bahulkar Madhav Deshpande wrote: > The following verse occurs as verse 32 of the Rk-version of the > Paa.niniiya-Zik.saa (in Manomohan Ghosh edition, U of Calcutta, 1938, p. > 42): > giitii ziighrii zira.hkampii tathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h / > anarthajJ~o 'lpaka.n.thaz ca .sa.d ete paa.thakaadhamaa.h // > > A variant of this verse with yathaa likhita-paa.thaka.h occurs in the > YajJ~avalkya-zik.saa (verse 82, p. 137, ed. by Amaranaatha Zaastrii, 2019 > Vikram, Varanasi). The Naaradiiya-zik.saa (2.19, p. 71, ed. by Usha > Bhise, Bhandarkar O. R. Institute, 1986) reads: > > pustakapratyayaadhiita.m naadhiita.m gurusannidhau / > raajate na sabhaamadhye jaaragarbhaa iva striya.h // > > Both of these passages assume that written Vedic texts are > available, and yet using them carries a certain degree of disapproval by > the community of reciters. > Madhav Deshpande From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sat Feb 19 17:21:08 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 00 22:51:08 +0530 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) Message-ID: <161227056028.23782.7696391324654228866.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I seriously doubt whether the mantra AV. 19.72.1 can point to a Medic "book" to be taken out from a chest and to be deposited again in it. The mantra is : Yasmaat ko;saad ud abharaama veda.m tasminn antar ava dadhma enam / k.rtam i.s.ta.m brahma.no viirye.na tena maa devaas tapasaa' vateha // The mantra mentions the lifting up of the veda from some receptacle. Tarek Wani wrote: > Further to Madhav Deshpande's posting, the Atharvaveda > 19.72.1 alludes to getting the Vedic book from a chest > (koza). The injunction against writing must be properly > deconstructed: It only means that the student should > not use the written text as a crutch, and commit it to memory. > > Deconstruction also requires that words like pApa not > be simplistically translated to evil. `pApa" is > whatever is contingent on the body. The idea of learning > Veda is to rise above such contingence and > learning to be independent of the written text was a > part of that training. > > -tAraka > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Get free personalized email from USA.com at http://mail.usa.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 21 02:28:52 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 00 18:28:52 -0800 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? Message-ID: <161227056037.23782.16576090937633716895.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: George Thompson As for the evils of written vedas, Richard Salomon, in his *Indian Epigraphy* [p.7] cites the following proverb: pustakasthA tu yA vidyA parahastagataM dhanam ["Knowledge in a book (is like) money in someone else's hand"] VA comments: The second line of this proverb is 'Karyakale samutpanne na sa vidya na taddhanam||' ---One of the many proverbs that my Sanskrit teacher made us memorise in the 7th grade. However, her interpretation was not that it is evil to write books, but rather that we should be familiar with their contents so that we do not have to search them in the books at the 11th hour. The word 'koza' reminds me of another proverb: "Apurvah ko'api kosho'ayam vidyate tava Bharati! Vyayato vrddhimayati, kshayamayati sanchayat ||" A proverb from the Mahabharata (have forgotten it, but will track it down) explicitly states that it is a sin to write the Vedas and that the writers of the Vedas pollute these texts. Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Mon Feb 21 02:49:57 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 00 19:49:57 -0700 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056038.23782.8118810342979248317.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Incidentally, Ojha's text was originally published in 1918. He was of the opinion that writing was present in ancient India. He writes that the reason written text of the vedas were avoided was to preserve the exact sounds, for ensuring that shrotriyas got due respect etc. Yashwant -- >This is attributed to the cANakya-nIti, in R. OjhA, *bhAratIya prAcIna >lipimAlA*, 1971. >George Thompson From GthomGt at CS.COM Mon Feb 21 01:54:17 2000 From: GthomGt at CS.COM (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 00 20:54:17 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? Message-ID: <161227056035.23782.8298874957329327668.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Following up on Michael Witzel's comments on AVZ 19.72: Not only is the word 'koza' problematic here, but so also is the word 'veda', as was discussed on the list in the thread ' When did the gods become literate? Was: Are the gods literate?' [cf. posting of Nov. 4 1999]. As for the evils of written vedas, Richard Salomon, in his *Indian Epigraphy* [p.7] cites the following proverb: pustakasthA tu yA vidyA parahastagataM dhanam ["Knowledge in a book (is like) money in someone else's hand"] This is attributed to the cANakya-nIti, in R. OjhA, *bhAratIya prAcIna lipi mAlA*, 1971. George Thompson From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Mon Feb 21 08:16:12 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (Himanshu Dave) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 00 13:46:12 +0530 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? Message-ID: <161227056040.23782.1659433159731706111.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yashwant Malaiya wrote: > Incidentally, Ojha's text was originally published in 1918. > He was of the opinion that writing was present in ancient India. > He writes that the reason written text of the vedas were avoided > was to preserve the exact sounds, for ensuring that shrotriyas > got due respect etc. I do not want to comment on whether art of writing was available duirng Vedic times or not. Indology scholars can invetigate it as they like, but I would like to point out the following : 1. Extreme importance is attached to the oral tradition as far as Vedas is concerned because of its contents and intended use. In order to benefit in any way from the text of Vedas (especially the first three), it is necessary that the mind of the reciter (and listener) should be in meditative state, what I shall call Alpha state for want of better word in English. 2. During such Alpha state EEG would exhibit high value of alpha rhythm. Normal waking brain exhibits Beta rhythm. 3. This requires, at least in case of a beginner (Ma.navaka) that his/her eyes should be closed. But then he/she can not read! 4. With eyes open, unless you are very advanced meditator, it is very difficult to achieve Alpha state. 5. The process of reading (which requires eyes open) and deciphering the written or printed text is a very complex operation which involves large parts of Cerebral Cortex. Compared to that the auditory inputs (either heard or self-spoken) require much less processing at Cerebral Cortex. If the Vedas are to be understood, the activity at Cerebral Cortex should be minimized. 6. Thus if you are studying the text of Vedas for purposes other then the one for which they were meant, you can go ahead and study from a written or printed book, but not if you are a beginner and /or want to derive the benefits as intended. -- Himanshu From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 21 22:27:27 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 00 14:27:27 -0800 Subject: Information Request Message-ID: <161227056044.23782.18189206436014916452.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidya Kamat wrote: >The thrust of my query is focused on the area where a male divinity >appropriates the female organ ( i.e.breasts). I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Tamil legend of Siva disguising himself as a vaiSya woman and breast-feeding a child, thereby becoming a mother. Hence he is called tAyumAnavar (he who also became a mother), Sanskritized as mAtRbhUta. There is a temple in Trichy dedicated to Siva as mAtRbhUteSvara. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From am9s at VIRGINIA.EDU Mon Feb 21 21:49:34 2000 From: am9s at VIRGINIA.EDU (Anne Monius) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 00 16:49:34 -0500 Subject: Summer Tamil Message-ID: <161227056042.23782.7612115929459895691.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The University of Virginia 2000 Summer Session will offer an intensive introductory course in Literary and Spoken Tamil taught by Professor Anne Monius (Hindu Studies) and an indigenous Tamil speaker. One of the two classical languages of India, Tamil developed independently from Sanskrit and is now spoken by roughly 80 million people not only in southern India but in Sri Lanka, Singapore, and Malaysia as well. Students will learn basic grammar and develop speaking, reading, and writing proficiency. By the end of the summer they should be able to read an article or short story from a modern Tamil magazine, write simple essays and letters, and function orally in most everyday situations. The class will watch several Tamil films as well as practice conversing with an indigenous speaker. Students intending to enroll in Introductory Tamil (TAML 101 & 102) must apply directly to the Summer Session for admission. For the 2000 application, write: Director of the Summer Session, 210 Miller Hall, Univeristy of Virginia Charlottesville, Virginia 22903. Phone: 804/924-3371. E-mail: summer at virginia.edu. Tuition for the 9 week session (8 credits) is $1,024 for in-state and $4,504 for out-of-state students. http://www.Virginia.EDU/~summer/ A limited number of FLAS Summer Fellowships (tuition and $2400 stipend) are available for graduate students. Students who wish to be considered for such fellowships should request an application (due March 20, 2000) from: Center for South Asian Studies 110 Minor Hall, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia 22904-4169. Phone: 804/924-8815. E-mail: southasia at virginia.edu. Applications are also available from the CSAS website: http://www.Virginia.EDU/~soasia/ From raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU Tue Feb 22 23:04:09 2000 From: raja at IFA.HAWAII.EDU (Narayan S. Raja) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 13:04:09 -1000 Subject: Information Request In-Reply-To: <20000221222727.35307.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227056053.23782.12508057474429590113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote: > I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Tamil legend of Siva disguising > himself as a vaiSya woman and breast-feeding a child, thereby becoming a > mother. Hence he is called tAyumAnavar (he who also became a mother), > Sanskritized as mAtRbhUta. There is a temple in Trichy dedicated to Siva as > mAtRbhUteSvara. As I recollect, actually in this legend Siva appears as a woman in order to help her "daughter" who is about to deliver. So, Siva is actually the "grandma" (of the newborn baby) in this legend. I don't recall whether breast-feeding is involved. The real grandma, who was delayed by a flood in the river Kaveri, shows up later. This is how I remember the story. If I'm wrong, I hope to be corrected. Regards, Raja. From SSRVJ at AOL.COM Tue Feb 22 18:27:41 2000 From: SSRVJ at AOL.COM (Somayaji Rajagopala) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 13:27:41 -0500 Subject: Information Request Message-ID: <161227056046.23782.3805274823374136415.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In a message dated 02/21/2000 5:28:07 PM EST, vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Siva disguising himself as a vaiSya woman and breast-feeding a child, thereby becoming a mother. Hence he is called tAyumAnavar (he who also became a mother), Sanskritized as mAtRbhUta. There is a temple in Trichy dedicated to Siva as mAtRbhUteSvara. >> It is a different Story.The vaisya (chettiar)woman is on Trichy side of Cauveri(River) bank and her daughter is about to deliver a child on the other bank (Sri Rangam side) of the River .Cauvery(River) is on full floods and country boat(Parisal)men are not reday to ferry anybody from one bank to the other.The Vaisya woman-being totally helpless- see the Lord sri.Siva on Rockfort Temple and totally surrenders ti Him.When the floods have receded after 3-4 days when she reaches her daughter's house-her daughter asks "Yesterday you went back after the safe delivery of your grand-son-why youcame back again?".the Vaisya womwn ralises that Lord sri.Siva Himself came in the form of Mother and helped her daughter--so Thaayum Aanavar(Lord became Mother also).In Sanskrit Mathrubhutheswarar.Even today after safe delivery people carry(on their Head) all plaintains in ONE stalk-in Tamil they say "Thaar"-(about 100-150 fruits) as a mark of Gratititude (to Lord sri.Siva)as the Vaisya woman(and her husband) did. From vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 22 21:59:57 2000 From: vsundaresan at HOTMAIL.COM (Vidyasankar Sundaresan) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 13:59:57 -0800 Subject: Information request Message-ID: <161227056051.23782.13218581343757805301.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >Interesting. Can you direct me to the texual source (preferably along >with translated edition) of this myth? As was pointed out on this list, and also to me in private, the story of Siva becoming a mother does not include breast-feeding a child. Somehow, I seem to have mixed up this legend in my mind with a completely different one, where it is Parvati who provides milk to a child. Vidyasankar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Wed Feb 23 00:22:47 2000 From: sseas at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Robert P. Goldman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 16:22:47 -0800 Subject: Information request In-Reply-To: <38B2DEBE.DC5F2FA0@vsnl.com> Message-ID: <161227056055.23782.10459072680082408147.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Those interested in pursuing the very common Indian theme of gender transformation in religious, mythological, and other contexts might like to look at my paper on this topic, "Transsexualism, Gender and Anxiety in Traditional India." Journal of the American Oriental Society. Vol.113,. no. 3. 1993 pp. 374-401 in which I discuss a number of examples of the theme. >< >himself as a vaiSya woman and breast-feeding a child, thereby becoming a > >mother. Hence he is called tAyumAnavar (he who also became a mother), >Sanskritized as mAtRbhUta. There is a temple in Trichy dedicated to Siva >as >mAtRbhUteSvara. > >Vidyasankar>> > >Interesting. Can you direct me to the texual source (preferably along >with translated edition) of this myth? >Thanking you in anticipation. > >sincerely, >Vidya Dr. R. P. Goldman Professor of Sanskrit Department of South and Souhteast Asian Studies 7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu Phone: (510) 642-4089 Fax: (510) 643-2959 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 1172 bytes Desc: not available URL: From troyoga at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 23 03:04:45 2000 From: troyoga at YAHOO.COM (Ven. Tantra) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 19:04:45 -0800 Subject: Etymology of Cerebrum Message-ID: <161227056060.23782.3272808676136721447.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I am trying to determine the etymology of the Latin word Cerebrum. I would appreciate any insights readers might share. English dictionaries do not give a real etymology of Cerebrum. I see in it two Sanskritic roots. Cere-would appear to designate ?the head? as is evidenced by the Sanskrit/Hindi sirii with its special reference to ?the head of a sacrifice.? -brum I assume to be derived from Sanskrit Brahman, the ultimate principle of Indian thought. Heinrich Zimmer(1) notes that Brahman is based on the Vedic root br.h (or brah), the particle of ?power,? ?growth? and ?expansion.? When inflected, br.h becomes both br.h-ant ?great? and br.m.h ?to make or render great.? As applies to sound, br.h signifies ?roar? and when inserted with the nasal m. as in br.m.hita it has the meaning of ?elephant roar,? the sentient sound that ?swells? above the others. When the genitive ending -man is considered, Brah-man gives the sense of ?heightened activation.? On the strength of this, ?cerebrum? seems to point to ?the human organ of understanding,? the aspect of the body that mirrors Brahman. Sincerely, Troy Harris (1) Heinrich Zimmer, Philosophies of India, edited by Joseph Campbell, Bollingen Series XXVI, (Princeton University Press, 1951), 79 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Wed Feb 23 00:44:25 2000 From: beitel at GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU (beitel) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 19:44:25 -0500 Subject: Information request Message-ID: <161227056057.23782.16165088316376630847.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Likewise my study, "Hair like Snakes and Mustached Brides: Crossed Gender in an Indian Folk Cult," in A. Hiltebeitel and Barbara D. Miller, eds., Hair: Its Power and Meaning in Asian Cultures. SUNY Press 1998. Pp. 143-76. >===== Original Message From Indology ===== >Those interested in pursuing the very common Indian theme of gender >transformation in religious, mythological, and other contexts might like to >look at my paper on this topic, "Transsexualism, Gender and Anxiety in >Traditional India." Journal of the American Oriental Society. Vol.113,. >no. 3. 1993 pp. 374-401 in which I discuss a number of examples of the >theme. > >><> >>himself as a vaiSya woman and breast-feeding a child, thereby becoming a >> >>mother. Hence he is called tAyumAnavar (he who also became a mother), >>Sanskritized as mAtRbhUta. There is a temple in Trichy dedicated to Siva >>as >>mAtRbhUteSvara. >> >>Vidyasankar>> >> >>Interesting. Can you direct me to the texual source (preferably along >>with translated edition) of this myth? >>Thanking you in anticipation. >> >>sincerely, >>Vidya >Dr. R. P. Goldman >Professor of Sanskrit >Department of South and Souhteast Asian Studies >7303 Dwinelle Hall MC #2540 >University of California at Berkeley >Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 >email: sseas at socrates.berkeley.edu >Phone: (510) 642-4089 >Fax: (510) 643-2959 From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Tue Feb 22 20:54:38 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 20:54:38 +0000 Subject: SOAS phone numbers Message-ID: <161227056049.23782.4575445473607849037.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SOAS has had a new phone system installed. All phone numbers have now changed. Old phone numbers still appear to ring when you call them, but most of the old handsets in people's offices have been removed. So if you think you colleague isn't answering, it may be an artefact of an imperfectly implemented technology upgrade. The new staff phone numbers are now in the Web; the South Asia people, for example, are at http://www.soas.ac.uk/SouthAsia/staff.html -- Dominik From sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU Wed Feb 23 03:25:50 2000 From: sb009h at MAIL.ROCHESTER.EDU (Steve Brown) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 00 22:25:50 -0500 Subject: Etymology of Cerebrum Message-ID: <161227056062.23782.4871183496497263794.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Troy; there is in fact a latin word cerebrum. meaning brain. i suggest refering to the Oxford English Dictionary, which does in fact list this as the etymology. best of luck _____________________________________________________________ Stephen J Brown University of Rochester " The Spirit of God, I realized, is exaustless Bliss; His body is countless tissues of light..." -Paramahansa Yogananda Lord Buddha was once asked why a man should love all persons equally. "Because," the great teacher replied, "in the very numerous and varied lifespans of each man, every other being has at one time or another been dear to him." ----- Original Message ----- From: Ven. Tantra To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:04 PM Subject: Etymology of Cerebrum I am trying to determine the etymology of the Latin word Cerebrum. I would appreciate any insights readers might share. English dictionaries do not give a real etymology of Cerebrum. I see in it two Sanskritic roots. Cere-would appear to designate "the head" as is evidenced by the Sanskrit/Hindi sirii with its special reference to "the head of a sacrifice." -brum I assume to be derived from Sanskrit Brahman, the ultimate principle of Indian thought. Heinrich Zimmer(1) notes that Brahman is based on the Vedic root br.h (or brah), the particle of "power," "growth" and "expansion." When inflected, br.h becomes both br.h-ant "great" and br.m.h "to make or render great." As applies to sound, br.h signifies "roar" and when inserted with the nasal m. as in br.m.hita it has the meaning of "elephant roar," the sentient sound that "swells" above the others. When the genitive ending -man is considered, Brah-man gives the sense of "heightened activation." On the strength of this, "cerebrum" seems to point to "the human organ of understanding," the aspect of the body that mirrors Brahman. Sincerely, Troy Harris (1) Heinrich Zimmer, Philosophies of India, edited by Joseph Campbell, Bollingen Series XXVI, (Princeton University Press, 1951), 79 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davinci at VSNL.COM Tue Feb 22 19:08:46 2000 From: davinci at VSNL.COM (Vidya Kamat) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 00 00:38:46 +0530 Subject: Information request Message-ID: <161227056048.23782.1199092772165166803.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> <> Interesting. Can you direct me to the texual source (preferably along with translated edition) of this myth? Thanking you in anticipation. sincerely, Vidya From magier at COLUMBIA.EDU Wed Feb 23 07:48:05 2000 From: magier at COLUMBIA.EDU (David Magier) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 00 02:48:05 -0500 Subject: conference announcement from SARAI Message-ID: <161227056064.23782.14277461610207747305.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The following event announcement is being forwarded to your mailing list or listserv from the EVENTS CALENDAR section of SARAI. Please contact event organizers directly for any further information. David Magier ================================= Twelfth International Congress of Vedanta Marcum Conference Center Miami University, Oxford, Ohio, USA SEPTEMBER 13-17, 2000 CALL FOR PAPERS Announcement: The Department of Philosophy at Miami University, Oxford, Ohio, U.S.A. cordially invites you to attend and participate in the Twelfth International Congress of Vedanta. International Congress of Vedanta, founded in 1986 at Miami University , Oxford, Ohio, is the focal point for meeting of North American scholars specializing in all aspects of Indian philosophy and religion. In the past, the Congress has also celebrated the birth centennial of S. Radhakrishnan 1988), the 1200th anniversary of Sri Sankaracharya (1990), the centennial of Swami Vivekananda's sojourn to America and his participation in the World Parliament of Religions (1992), birth centennial of J. Krishnamurti (1995), and the 700th anniversary of sanjeewan samadhi of Sri Jnaneswara (1996). International Congress of Vedanta also held its meetings in Madras, Rishikesh and Hyderabad, India, and in Port-of-Spain, Trinidad, in order to facilitate better interaction between scholars in India and the West. Location: The 12th Congress will be held in the Marcum Conference Center of Miami University, Oxford, Ohio, between September 13 and 17, 2000. Oxford, Ohio, is situated near Cincinnati and Dayton, Ohio, a 30-45 minute drive from each. The Cincinnati and Dayton airports are an hour's drive from Oxford. The Marcum Conference Center offers excellent modern conference facilities with conference, seminar, presentation, dining and guest rooms. Call for Papers and Panels: As this is the new Millennium Conference, the Advisory Committee of the Congress recommends scholars to present papers on any topic of their current research in Indian and Comparative philosophy and religion. Unlike past Vedanta conferences, the Millennium Conference is an "open theme" conference. The Conference will include in its program plenary presentations, panel sessions, symposium discussions and individual papers. The deadline for sending abstracts of papers and/or informing us of your intention to attend the Congress is May 1, 2000. However, in order to plan the conference effectively, please write to the conference director immediately your intention to attend to the address given below: Professor S. S Rama Rao Pappu Department of Philosophy Miami University Oxford, Ohio, 45056 USA Tel: (0) 513-529-2439 (H) 513-523-2944 Fax: 513-529-4731 Email: RRPAPPU at MUOHIO.EDU From cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM Wed Feb 23 17:23:43 2000 From: cheapies at CABLEREGINA.COM (Benjamin Fleming) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 00 11:23:43 -0600 Subject: murti, stone Message-ID: <161227056069.23782.6520018668531655440.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, I believe that I read somewhere that stone images in temples needed to be replaced every 3,000 years to be effective as the residence of a deity. This would mean that stone, like clay idols are temporary 'bodies' of a deity, but that there is simply a difference in time frame (clay idols generally housing a deity for about 10 days, for example.) Can any one point me to a reference which specifically talks about stone images and their duration as effective 'housing.' Either original or secondary sources are fine. thanks in advance benjamin fleming -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Feb 23 16:12:01 2000 From: pradip2000 at YAHOO.COM (Gabriel) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 00 13:12:01 -0300 Subject: Etymology of Cerebrum Message-ID: <161227056066.23782.3987860332811183324.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friend, Sorry, but we put an e-mail address to teach Sanskrit, not to translate or give etimologies. Some people ask us for a name for their babies, etc., etc. We'll try to publish the real function of our e-mail address in order to solve this misunderstanding. Gabriel ----- Original Message ----- From: Ven. Tantra To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 12:04 AM Subject: Etymology of Cerebrum I am trying to determine the etymology of the Latin word Cerebrum. I would appreciate any insights readers might share. English dictionaries do not give a real etymology of Cerebrum. I see in it two Sanskritic roots. Cere-would appear to designate "the head" as is evidenced by the Sanskrit/Hindi sirii with its special reference to "the head of a sacrifice." -brum I assume to be derived from Sanskrit Brahman, the ultimate principle of Indian thought. Heinrich Zimmer(1) notes that Brahman is based on the Vedic root br.h (or brah), the particle of "power," "growth" and "expansion." When inflected, br.h becomes both br.h-ant "great" and br.m.h "to make or render great." As applies to sound, br.h signifies "roar" and when inserted with the nasal m. as in br.m.hita it has the meaning of "elephant roar," the sentient sound that "swells" above the others. When the genitive ending -man is considered, Brah-man gives the sense of "heightened activation." On the strength of this, "cerebrum" seems to point to "the human organ of understanding," the aspect of the body that mirrors Brahman. Sincerely, Troy Harris (1) Heinrich Zimmer, Philosophies of India, edited by Joseph Campbell, Bollingen Series XXVI, (Princeton University Press, 1951), 79 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athr at LOC.GOV Wed Feb 23 20:20:14 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 00 15:20:14 -0500 Subject: Roommate and lodging for World Sanskit Conference Message-ID: <161227056071.23782.13250915872115415103.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Does anyone (male) want a roommate for the World Sanskrit Conference in Turin/Torino next month? Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From mmdesh at UMICH.EDU Thu Feb 24 14:22:23 2000 From: mmdesh at UMICH.EDU (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 09:22:23 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit homework from Snowy Michigan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056073.23782.11230085177420495863.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear friends, I would like to share with you a piece of Sanskrit composition submitted as part of the class homework. I found this in one of my old files. ye chaatraa.h himam d.r.s.tvaa vidyaalayam agatvaa hime khelanti te himena prasiidanti / ye tu hime calanta.h tatra patanti te.saam bahu du.hkham jaayate / ye hime patanti te iizvaram nindanti / iizvara.h aakaaze vasan na kadaapi hime patati / yadaa janaa.h hime patanta.h iizvaram nindanti, tadaa iizvara.h taan vadati - he janaa.h, maa maam nindata / yu.smaakam eva etat karma / yadi yu.smaakam pu.nyam paapaad adhikam bhavet tarhi yuuyam FLORIDAayaam eva jaayedhvam / ye.saam pu.nyam eva bhavati, na kim api paapam, te sarve janaa.h FLORIDAdeze vasanti / As things would have it, the student who wrote this composition probably about 15 years ago, got a job in Florida. Best, Madhav Deshpande From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Thu Feb 24 19:03:15 2000 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 14:03:15 -0500 Subject: Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056075.23782.8000495506902962512.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vallee Poussin (Prasannapadaa, p. 524) makes a reference to a work called the Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa. I have looked in the Tibetan and Chinese canon catalogues and in the OCLC database and cannot seem to locate it. Any hints? Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 Ph#: (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From athr at LOC.GOV Thu Feb 24 20:02:07 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 15:02:07 -0500 Subject: Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa Message-ID: <161227056078.23782.3939848963381743414.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Might he mean one of these?: LC Control Number: 73901235 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Vimalamitra, 8th cent. Main Title: 'Jam dpal sgyu 'phrul dr*a [i.e. drwa] ba'i 'grel ba mtshan don gsal bar byed pa'i sgron me ?zes bya ba b?zugs so. Uniform Title: [N*amasang*itivrtti n*am*arthaprak*a?sakarnadipa. Tibetan] Added TP Title: Mtshan yan dag par brjod pa'i 'grel pa mtshan don gsal bar byed ba'i sgron me Published/Created: [Sgan-thog : s.n., 1972] Description: 88 (i.e. 175) p. in a case ; 10 x 43 cm. Notes: Includes fabricated Sanskrit titles in La?ca and Tibetan scripts. Impressions from blocks preserved in the temple at the Deorali Chorten in Gangtok, Sikkim. "Slob-dpon Bi-ma-la-mi-tras mdzad nas thugs kyi sras =Nan-tin-'dzin gyis ?zus pa'o. G=nags Dz=n*a-nas bsgyur ba'o."--p. [175]. Subjects: Tripitaka. S*utrapitaka. Ma?ju?sr*in*amasang*iti --Commentaries. LC Classification: BQ2240.M355 V55 1972 Language Code: tibsan CALL NUMBER: BQ2240.M355 V55 1972 Tib LC Control Number: 78906065 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Dpa'-bo-rdo-rje, Grub-chen. Main Title: Rje btsun 'Jam pa'i dbyans kyi chos skor dan lhan thabs : a treasured collection of s*adhanas focussing upon Ma?jughosa / set down by Grub-chen Dpa'-bo-rdo-rje. With the ?Ses rab snan 'phel of 'Jam-dbyans-'phrin-las of 'Brug-la. Published/Created: New Delhi : Ngawang Sopa, 1977. Related Names: 'Jam-dbyans-'phrin-las, 'Brug-la Mkhan-chen. 'Jam dbyans chos skor nas b?sad pa'i lha tshogs rnams kyi sgrub thabs dan rjes gnan byed tshul gyi cho ga ?ses rab kyi snan 'phel. 1977. Vimalamitra, 8th cent. N*amasang*itivrtti n*am*arthaprak*a?sakarnadipa. Tibetan. 1977. Description: 571 p. ; 9 x 38 cm. Notes: Title on boards: 'Jam dbyans chos skor. In Tibetan; pref. in English. "Reproduced from texts from the library of Ven. Khri-byan Rin-poche." Includes Vimalamitra's N*amasangitivrtti n*am*arthaprak*a?sakaranad*ipa. in Tibetan. Subjects: Vimalamitra, 8th cent. Ma?ju?sr*in*amasang*it*i. Tson-kha-pa Blo-bzan-grags-pa, 1357-1419 --Cult. Ma?ju?sr*i--Cult--Tibet. LC Classification: BQ4710.M44 T52 1977 CALL NUMBER: BQ4710.M44 T52 1977 Tib Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU Thu Feb 24 23:32:16 2000 From: srsarbac at STUDENTS.WISC.EDU (Stuart Ray Sarbacker) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 15:32:16 -0800 Subject: New Web Site In-Reply-To: <200002232358.RAA20172@mail3.doit.wisc.edu> Message-ID: <161227056080.23782.9071403265156244945.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, I am happy to announce a new Indology resource, "Archive of Indological Resources Online," which is located on the home page of Professor Gudrun Buhnemann at the University of Wisconsin-Madison: http://imp.lss.wisc.edu/~gbuhnema/ The archive is currently under construction, and Professor Buhnemann would appreciate it if Indology members would send her relevant lndological links to add to the site. She can be contacted at: gbuhnema at facstaff.wisc.edu There is also a form on the site for recommending new links. The site contains resources such as Sanskrit transliteration fonts, links to Sanskrit educational materials and programs on the net, and links to publishers, booksellers, and journals. All the Best, Stuart From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Thu Feb 24 22:33:59 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 00 22:33:59 +0000 Subject: Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa Message-ID: <161227056082.23782.7338235061713926529.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There are also Sanskrit mss of the Naama-mantraarthaavalokinii naama Naama-sa.mgiiti-.tiikaa by Vilaasavajra with copies at Cambridge (Bendall), Nepal national Archives and Kyoto. Also there is a Sanskrit ms of the Naama-sa.mgiiti-.tiikaa Guu.dhapadaaa (Cowell-Eggeling 34) Stephen Hodge ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Walser To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:03 PM Subject: Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa > Vallee Poussin (Prasannapadaa, p. 524) makes a reference to a work called > the Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa. I have looked in the Tibetan and Chinese canon > catalogues and in the OCLC database and cannot seem to locate it. Any hints? > > Joseph Walser > Department of Comparative Religion > Tufts University > Medford, MA 02155 > Ph#: (617) 627-2322 > fax: (617) 627-3191 > From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Thu Feb 24 23:32:44 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 00:32:44 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit homework from Snowy Michigan Message-ID: <161227056084.23782.8623790272437789069.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear friends, > I would like to share with you a piece of Sanskrit > composition submitted as part of the class homework. [...] > FLORIDAayaam eva jaayedhvam / ye.saam pu.nyam eva bhavati, na kim > api paapam, te sarve janaa.h FLORIDAdeze vasanti / > As things would have it, the student who wrote this > compositionprobably about 15 years ago, got a job in Florida. Arthaat: yadi vaya.m devabhaa.saayaa.m likhaamas tarhi devaas tad d.r.s.tvaa h.r.s.tvaa 'smaaka.m varaan dadati -- etaavat spa.s.ta.m, nanu? (Yadi vaya.m sarva INDOLOGYaam apy eva.m kurma.h?...) RZ From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 25 01:19:16 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 06:49:16 +0530 Subject: Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa Message-ID: <161227056086.23782.10173895682696102649.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Walser, The Sanskrit text of the Naamasa.ngiiti with a Sanskrit commentary has been published from the Central Institute of Higher Tibetan Studies, Sarnath. You will get necessary information about the Sanskrit and Tibetan sources from Dr. Banarsilal who has prepared the edition. Shrikant Bahulkar Joseph Walser wrote: > Vallee Poussin (Prasannapadaa, p. 524) makes a reference to a work called > the Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa. I have looked in the Tibetan and Chinese canon > catalogues and in the OCLC database and cannot seem to locate it. Any hints? > > Joseph Walser > Department of Comparative Religion > Tufts University > Medford, MA 02155 > Ph#: (617) 627-2322 > fax: (617) 627-3191 Joseph Walser wrote: > Vallee Poussin (Prasannapadaa, p. 524) makes a reference to a work called > the Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa. I have looked in the Tibetan and Chinese canon > catalogues and in the OCLC database and cannot seem to locate it. Any hints? > > Joseph Walser > Department of Comparative Religion > Tufts University > Medford, MA 02155 > Ph#: (617) 627-2322 > fax: (617) 627-3191 From jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU Fri Feb 25 14:01:33 2000 From: jwalse01 at EMERALD.TUFTS.EDU (Joseph Walser) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 09:01:33 -0500 Subject: Naamasa.mgiiti.tiikaa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056087.23782.2604832767027682343.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> A thousand thanks to all of you who sent me references to commentaries on the Naamasa.mgiiti. I think that I can probably find what I am looking for now. Joseph Joseph Walser Department of Comparative Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 Ph#: (617) 627-2322 fax: (617) 627-3191 From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Fri Feb 25 21:13:13 2000 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 13:13:13 -0800 Subject: e-mail address of WSC In-Reply-To: <38B6CBDB.E67F77C3@pn2.vsnl.net.in> Message-ID: <161227056095.23782.188548102173960371.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have not received many communications from the WSC secretary, but the few I received had the e-mail address . The other details for contacting that I have are: Secretary / Professor Oscar Botto XIth World Sanskrit Conference Via Cavour 17 1-10123 Torino Itala. Fax 39-011.54.50.31 >Dear list members, >Does any one know the e-mail address of the secretary of World Sanskrit >Conference to be held in Turin from 3-8 April 2000? > >Shrikant Bahulkar From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Feb 25 19:12:28 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 14:12:28 -0500 Subject: World Skt. Conference in Turin - for real? Message-ID: <161227056089.23782.17473024335740709242.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Is anyone on Indology going to the World Sanskrit Conference in Turin? Is there any evidence it's actually going to come off? If have faxed CESMEO for information about accomodations and gotten no reply. There is also no program on the website. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From athr at LOC.GOV Fri Feb 25 19:39:54 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 14:39:54 -0500 Subject: e-mail address of WSC Message-ID: <161227056093.23782.16200687805141368897.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There doesn't seem to be an email but there is a phone: 39 011 546 564 and a fax: 39 011 545 031 These belong to the Istituto Internationale di Studi Asiatici Avanzati. I've faxed but received no response, but haven't tried the phone number yet. Allen Thrasher Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From bprecia at COLMEX.MX Sat Feb 26 02:08:45 2000 From: bprecia at COLMEX.MX (Benjamin Preciado) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 00 18:08:45 -0800 Subject: e-mail address of WSC Message-ID: <161227056097.23782.3838968641677613887.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The e-mail address for the Congress is cesmeo at tin.it Hope you get a prompt answer, it took me more than three weeks to know that the deadline for papers was Sept. 30 1999. -----Mensaje original----- De: Shrikant Bahulkar [mailto:bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN] Enviado el: Viernes, 25 de Febrero de 2000 12:37 p.m. Para: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Asunto: e-mail address of WSC Dear list members, Does any one know the e-mail address of the secretary of World Sanskrit Conference to be held in Turin from 3-8 April 2000? Shrikant Bahulkar From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Fri Feb 25 18:37:15 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 00 00:07:15 +0530 Subject: e-mail address of WSC Message-ID: <161227056091.23782.3540822486522884082.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear list members, Does any one know the e-mail address of the secretary of World Sanskrit Conference to be held in Turin from 3-8 April 2000? Shrikant Bahulkar From shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 27 03:11:05 2000 From: shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM (Shrinivas Tilak) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 00 19:11:05 -0800 Subject: Did the Aryans return to India? Message-ID: <161227056099.23782.3548096886873213874.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Winnipeg Free Press of February 26, 2000 carried a column called "They all discovered America," by Tom Oleson, one of the editorial writers. In his column Oleson informs the reader that in April Canada will commemorate the millenium of the arrival of a party of Icelanders from Greenland (led by Leif Eiriksson) to North America in 1,000. A settlement dating from that period has been uncovered at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland. But after spending only a few years in what is now Canada, the Icelanders realized that they were unwelcome and therefore returned to Greenland. About 400 years later this group mysteriously vanished from the face of the Earth. I wonder if the same fate befell the "Aryans." Montreal based Bhagwan Gidwani's novel "Return of the Aryans" is based on a similar idea. His Aryans return to India after a similar experience in Europe, although they do not disappear. S.Tilak ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA Sun Feb 27 10:15:24 2000 From: aklujkar at UNIXG.UBC.CA (Ashok Aklujkar) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 00 11:15:24 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling In-Reply-To: <001601bf8143$f82db440$2220893e@default> Message-ID: <161227056134.23782.12199582888110545672.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >?From statements such as gaur ity atra ka/h ;sabda/h? gakaaraukaara-visarjaniiyaa.h ( ;Sabara etc.), it would seem that a word's spelling, if necessary, was specified by adding -kaara after its constituent sounds (with some additional terms such as repha for select sounds or signs). The occasions to spell, however, must have been far fewer than in, say, English, because, as most students of Sanskrit know, given the almost perfect fit of most Indic scripts to the sounds of Skt, one either knows a Skt word or one does not; the 'problem' of spelling as such does not exist. >I womder if anybody knows about Sanskrit "spelling". What I mean is, >how would Sanskrit words traditionally be spelt out aloud. Perhaps >such exists but it is never mentioned in any of the standard Western >grammars of Sanskrit. Some subscribers may know of the Tibetan >method where each element is spelt out and pronounced cumulatively. I >am wondering if this was a native Tibetan innovation or had Indian >antecedents. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge From lmfosse at ONLINE.NO Sun Feb 27 11:13:18 2000 From: lmfosse at ONLINE.NO (Lars Martin Fosse) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 00 12:13:18 +0100 Subject: SV: Did the Aryans return to India? Message-ID: <161227056102.23782.8000046208383011453.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrinivas Tilak [SMTP:shrinivast at HOTMAIL.COM] skrev 27. februar 2000 04:11: > Winnipeg Free Press of February 26, 2000 carried a column called "They > all discovered America," by Tom Oleson, one of the editorial writers. In his > column Oleson informs the reader that in April Canada will commemorate the > millenium of the arrival of a party of Icelanders from Greenland (led by > Leif Eiriksson) to North America in 1,000. A settlement dating from that > period has been uncovered at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland. > But after spending only a few years in what is now Canada, the > Icelanders realized that they were unwelcome and therefore returned to > Greenland. About 400 years later this group mysteriously vanished from the > face of the Earth. The Icelanders (or rather: Norse Greenlanders) gave up living in America because they were unable to handle the hostilities of the Native Americans. Norsemen were known for their warlike character, so we must assume that they were simply short of men. However, they apparently kept visiting America for several hundred years, because that is where they got their timber. At the most, some 3000 Norsemen seem to have lived on Greenland, concentrated in two settlements. In 1053, Greenland came under the archbishopric of Bremen, and in 1104 under the archbishop of Lund in Sweden. In 1112 Greenland got its own bishop. There was active trade between Greenland and Norway, and the Eddic poem of Atlamaal was made on Greenland. In 1261, the Norsemen of Greenland made themselves dependent upon the Norwegian king and thus became part of Norway, undoubtedly for trade reasons. This made Greenland Norwegian Crown Land. Noone knows exactly why the Norsemen died out/disappeared. After the Black Death, the rest of the world gradually lost contact with Greenland. The last bishop of Greenland who actually lived there died in 1378. The last recorded ship from Greenland came in 1410, although the traffic must have gone on for some time into the 15th century. The archaeological material tells us that the Norsemen did not intermarry with the Greenlanders (whom they called "skraelinger" = "people with miserable looks"). They possibly died out because of worsening climatic conditions and inadequate food. After 1500 the country was exclusively peopled by inuit for a while. Several Dano-Norwegians had plans for rediscovering Greenland, but for political reason, nothing was done. In 1578 Martin Frobisher found Greenland while looking for the Northwest Passage. This brought Greenland "back on the map". There has been some speculation that Columbus knew about Greenland and was inspired to go looking for the Americas (India to him) because of this. Thus, we quite a lot about the Norse settlements on Greenland, the only unclear point being exactly how the Norsemen died out. Given the state of the world in the late 14th century, this is hardly surprising. Norway had lost almost half its population during the Black Death and also gradually lost its political independence. If the Norsemen were dying out on Greenland, there may have been little produce to fetch, thus reducing interest in the place. Trade between Denmark-Norway and Greenland was only reestablished, not without problems, in the first half of the 18th century. Best regards, Lars Martin Fosse Dr. art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo Norway Phone/Fax: +47 22 32 12 19 Email: lmfosse at online.no From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Feb 27 23:07:31 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 00 15:07:31 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056112.23782.8163039379870221110.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In schools. the spelling dictation sessions or spelling tests are called 'Srutalekha' and our summer homework (upto grade 8) in schools comprised (among other things) of 3-5 Srutalekha tests per week administered by parents at home. These days, the volume of summer has been reduced considerably (much to the relief of parents !) The spelling of words is read out exactly as Dr. Banerjee has stated below. Students like me found it easier to score in Hindi/Sanskrit Srutalekha sessions vis a vis Enlish dictation tests because the Devanagari script is more phonetic. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Rajarshi Banerjee Subject: Re: Sanskrit Spelling Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:55:26 -0500 I have heard people saying aloud things like pa me O ki MAtrA......( put the O vowel marker on pa) and so on to describe how a word is spelt or written. There is no notion of spelling or spelling bees in hindi or sanskrit as it exists in english. saying the syllales aloud would just amount to saying the word slowly. regards, R banerjee ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK Sun Feb 27 16:47:09 2000 From: s.hodge at PADMACHOLING.FREESERVE.CO.UK (Stephen Hodge) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 00 16:47:09 +0000 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056104.23782.3491785166382606275.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I womder if anybody knows about Sanskrit "spelling". What I mean is, how would Sanskrit words traditionally be spelt out aloud. Perhaps such exists but it is never mentioned in any of the standard Western grammars of Sanskrit. Some subscribers may know of the Tibetan method where each element is spelt out and pronounced cumulatively. I am wondering if this was a native Tibetan innovation or had Indian antecedents. Best wishes, Stephen Hodge From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Sun Feb 27 21:55:26 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 00 16:55:26 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056110.23782.9314752565107718352.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I have heard people saying aloud things like pa me O ki MAtrA......( put the O vowel marker on pa) and so on to describe how a word is spelt or written. There is no notion of spelling or spelling bees in hindi or sanskrit as it exists in english. saying the syllales aloud would just amount to saying the word slowly. regards, R banerjee From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 27 18:54:59 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 00:24:59 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056106.23782.12006826587788112441.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know how old is the Tibetan method of pronouncing the spellings aloud, but it is very interesting to learn that in the classroom. Such a method similar to the Tibetan one exists in Marathi. The children are taught how to pronounce ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, ke, kai, ko, kau, ka.m and ka.h. They are also taught the words for the vowels i, ii, etc. and then their combinations with the consonants. Similar is in Japanese : kaa, kii, kuu, ke, ko etc. based on the Indian var.namaalaa, although I have not heard of the way of pronouncing the spellings in Japanese. We never used any method for Sanskrit spellings. Probably because Indian students already knew it and because it was never taught to foreigners in old days. Shrikant Bahulkar Stephen Hodge wrote: > I womder if anybody knows about Sanskrit "spelling". What I mean is, > how would Sanskrit words traditionally be spelt out aloud. Perhaps > such exists but it is never mentioned in any of the standard Western > grammars of Sanskrit. Some subscribers may know of the Tibetan > method where each element is spelt out and pronounced cumulatively. I > am wondering if this was a native Tibetan innovation or had Indian > antecedents. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN Sun Feb 27 18:56:53 2000 From: bahulkar at PN2.VSNL.NET.IN (Shrikant Bahulkar) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 00:26:53 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056108.23782.12574952035779333231.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I do not know how old is the Tibetan method of pronouncing the spellings aloud, but it is very interesting to learn that in the classroom. Such a method similar to the Tibetan one exists in Marathi. The children are taught how to pronounce ka, kaa, ki, kii, ku, kuu, ke, kai, ko, kau, ka.m and ka.h. They are also taught the words for the vowels i, ii, etc. and then their combinations with the consonants. Similar is in Japanese : kaa, kii, kuu, ke, ko etc. based on the Indian var.namaalaa, although I have not heard of the way of pronouncing the spellings in Japanese. We never used any method for Sanskrit spellings. Probably because Indian students already knew it and because it was never taught to foreigners in old days. Shrikant Bahulkar Stephen Hodge wrote: > I womder if anybody knows about Sanskrit "spelling". What I mean is, > how would Sanskrit words traditionally be spelt out aloud. Perhaps > such exists but it is never mentioned in any of the standard Western > grammars of Sanskrit. Some subscribers may know of the Tibetan > method where each element is spelt out and pronounced cumulatively. I > am wondering if this was a native Tibetan innovation or had Indian > antecedents. > > Best wishes, > Stephen Hodge From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 28 14:40:33 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 06:40:33 -0800 Subject: Information Request Message-ID: <161227056130.23782.2900556996452227566.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vidya, Lord Shiva becoming Mother type legend can be seen in common Tamil personal names like Naachiyappa CheTTiaar, Taayumaanasundaram Pillai or Aayi Goundan etc., In the puthuma.n.dapam of the Madurai Meenakshi temple you can see a depiction of Shiva as a Mother Pig feeding her piglets. For the Madurai mAtRbhUteshvara legendary account, consult TiruviLaiyADal purANam. Best, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From swantham at TECHPARK.NET Mon Feb 28 01:28:35 2000 From: swantham at TECHPARK.NET (Swantham) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 06:58:35 +0530 Subject: Sanskrit homework from Snowy Michigan Message-ID: <161227056115.23782.7790428898982790766.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Namoo namah, Bhavadbhih yallikhitam tatra 'asmaakam varaan dadaati' ityatra asmaakam ityasya sthaanee asmabhyam ityaava'syakam.Daa dhatooh prayoogee sviikartaa caturthiivibhaktyaam bhavati. Dhanyavaadah Mahesvarah ---------- > From: Robert Zydenbos > To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK > Subject: Re: Sanskrit homework from Snowy Michigan > Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 5:02 AM > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > > I would like to share with you a piece of Sanskrit > > composition submitted as part of the class homework. [...] > > > FLORIDAayaam eva jaayedhvam / ye.saam pu.nyam eva bhavati, na kim > > api paapam, te sarve janaa.h FLORIDAdeze vasanti / > > > As things would have it, the student who wrote this > > compositionprobably about 15 years ago, got a job in Florida. > > Arthaat: yadi vaya.m devabhaa.saayaa.m likhaamas tarhi devaas > tad d.r.s.tvaa h.r.s.tvaa 'smaaka.m varaan dadati -- etaavat > spa.s.ta.m, nanu? (Yadi vaya.m sarva INDOLOGYaam apy eva.m > kurma.h?...) > > RZ From kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET Mon Feb 28 07:03:06 2000 From: kalyan99 at NETSCAPE.NET (S.Kalyanaraman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 07:03:06 +0000 Subject: Vedic snow and glaciers Message-ID: <161227056118.23782.3722765493769753724.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> hi, would appreciate info. on references to snow and glaciers in vedic and avestan texts. kalyanaraman ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. From kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM Mon Feb 28 17:00:13 2000 From: kkalale1 at SAN.RR.COM (Krishna Kalale) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 09:00:13 -0800 Subject: Brahma: in chanting Message-ID: <161227056136.23782.7378367914101116068.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I thought that sanskrit is phonetic - ie. you speak as you write unlike english ( which has silent letters and difference in pronunciation depending on the words letters are used). For example why is Brahma written in sanskrit like brah-ma rather than bram-ha. it is usually pronounced as bram-ha even in vedic chants. This makes the language less phonetic. for example this is the case in most gita verses : bramharparnam bramha havih bramhagnau brahmhana hutam.... Krishna Kalale From annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE Mon Feb 28 08:11:55 2000 From: annapya.sjodin at AFRO.UU.SE (=?utf-8?Q?Anna-Pya_Sj=C3=B6din?=) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 09:11:55 +0100 Subject: World Skt. Conference in Turin - for real? Message-ID: <161227056120.23782.11006337747776747237.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Yes, I (Anna-Pya Sjodin) am going. If it is for real or not; well, I don't know there is no program issued yet, as far as I know. It would indeed be nice if someone on the list, who knows more than I, could tell. Best wishes, Anna-Pya From prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Feb 28 17:40:47 2000 From: prasad_velusamy at HOTMAIL.COM (Prasad Velusamy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 09:40:47 -0800 Subject: Qn. Bengal/Maharashtra Govt. policy Message-ID: <161227056146.23782.13005427750827813309.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> While browsing on the web, I came across the following article. Is another vernacular language spreading in India as in the EC? Have Maharashtra and Bengal reversed their earlier positions, and make English compulsory? Thanks for the info, Prasad ------------------------------------------------------------------- English rises again as India's power language By Robert Marquand, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor Thursday, February 10, 2000 http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/02/09/text/p1s4.html After a decade-long "Indianization" to teach regional languages in the schools - and remove British-era names of streets and places (Bombay is now Mumbai, Calcutta is Kolkata) - a middle-class consensus to spread the learning of English is emerging. For 50 years, English has been a language of privilege, but today it must become a more common vernacular, say intellectuals, business executives, and parents alike. [snipped] "If we wish to be a global cyberpower, if we want a larger share of the world markets, if we want greater political relevance ... we could start out with a crash program to promote English, not Hindi," argues Shekar Gupta, editor of India's largest newspaper, The Indian Express. He points out that among the more prosperous populations of East Asia, English is becoming a compulsory second language. [snipped] Acknowledging these realities, in December the government of Maharashtra, whose capital is Bombay, announced compulsory English lessons for all students from grade 6 onward. The move, like a similar one in West Bengal two years ago, reverses a policy of the early 1990s to teach only the local Marathi and Bengali languages in schools. Parents in Bombay were a major part of the lobbying effort to change the system. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 28 10:11:32 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 10:11:32 +0000 Subject: World Skt. Conference in Turin - for real? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056122.23782.1668662053701027108.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm going; I've faxed my stuff and had a reply from the hotel, etc., confirming my booking. Seems okay to me. No further info about the programme, though. -- Dominik Wujastyk Founder, INDOLOGY list. From cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Mon Feb 28 18:19:14 2000 From: cnarayan at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Chandan R. Narayan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 10:19:14 -0800 Subject: Skt pronunciation (Was: Sanskrit Spelling) In-Reply-To: <003D0A33B331D2119E470008C72892CD013F3C57@SMGMAIL> Message-ID: <161227056153.23782.14156452279897774130.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> For an excellent account of the regional differences in Sanskrit pronunciation, see the S.K. Chatterji article in the Pathak Memorial Volume(BORI, c. 1930's). In this article, Chatterji provides phonetic transcriptions (near IPA) of the BhagavadgItA verse "dharmakSetre..." as pronounced by boys from Calcutta, Varanasi (Maharashtrian), Tamil Nad, Kerala. If interested, I will provide an exact reference. chandan r. narayan || cnarayan at socrates.berkeley.edu || socrates.berkeley.edu/~cnarayan "You couldn't fool your mother on the most foolingist day of your life, even if you had an electrified fooling machine. " From ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK Mon Feb 28 10:21:26 2000 From: ucgadkw at UCL.AC.UK (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 10:21:26 +0000 Subject: [Forwarded] Stats on Linguistic Groups Message-ID: <161227056127.23782.3093991221861122746.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:31:51 +0800 From: Linguistic Studies Subject: Stats on Linguistic Groups In a recent monograph on linguistic cultures I have published over 130,000 stats covering 460+ language groups worldwide (demographics, economics, geography, etc.).* I have recently created a spreadsheet of the database which is complementary to researchers/scholars. If you or a colleague might find this useful for your research, please let me know and I can send you a zip or XLS file of the data. Yours, Phil Parker Professor of Economics and International Studies UCSD & INSEAD *Source: Parker, Philip M., Linguistic Cultures of the World: A Statistical Reference, Greenwood Press, 1997. List Notice: your email address is from a compiled list of linguistics scholars. If you wish to be removed from this list or were sent this email in error, please reply to this mail with the word REMOVE. My apologies for this inconvenience. From athr at LOC.GOV Mon Feb 28 15:21:57 2000 From: athr at LOC.GOV (Allen W Thrasher) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 10:21:57 -0500 Subject: Thanks for WSC info. Message-ID: <161227056132.23782.8101187210246701022.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Thanks to all who responded on the prospects of the WSC. Hope to see you there. Allen T. Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D. Senior Reference Librarian 101 Indendence Ave., SE Southern Asia Section LJ-150 Asian Division Washington, DC 20540-4810 Library of Congress U.S.A. tel. 202-707-3732 fax 202-707-1724 Email: athr at loc.gov The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the Library of Congress. From k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE Mon Feb 28 10:22:38 2000 From: k.kupfer at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE (Katharina Kupfer) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 11:22:38 +0100 Subject: World Skt. Conference in Turin - for real? Message-ID: <161227056125.23782.2420129606964747785.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> I'm going, too. But I havn't got any information about the programm. I also had a lot of trouble to get in contact with the people in Torino and it took at least several days to get an answer by email. KK -- ...................................................................................... Katharina Kupfer http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/kkupfer.htm Vergleichende Sprachwissenschaft : Tel. +- 49 - 69 - 798 23 139 Universitaet Frankfurt : Fax +- 49 - 69 - 798 22 873 PF 11 19 32 : k.kupfer at em.uni-frankfurt.de D - 60054 Frankfurt http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/tocharic/tht.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: k.kupfer.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 504 bytes Desc: not available URL: From shrao at IA.NET Mon Feb 28 17:56:44 2000 From: shrao at IA.NET (Shrisha Rao) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 11:56:44 -0600 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056149.23782.7457561812883662027.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > For, an Indian scientist friend of mine has drawn my attention to a > troubling report in INDIA ABROAD, January 21, 2000, hidden away on the > OPINION page. I read the article with some interest, but find little that would be troubling. Not because I agree with the ludicrous ideas expressed by Joshi, et al., but because such ideas will inevitably die on the vine. However, I must add that Praful Bidwai isn't the most credible person one could find to write a proper rebuttal. He has no credentials as a historian, and his bilious comments might actually have the opposite effect from what is evidently his intention. Specifically, it is to be recognized that pride in Indian-ness is a socially, or perhaps even historically, legitimate sentiment in Indian minds, and to deny this outright would doubtless do more to legitimize extreme nationalism. Regards, Shrisha Rao > Michael Witzel From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 28 17:01:05 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 12:01:05 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling In-Reply-To: <20000227230731.49108.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227056139.23782.14035249145130084340.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> V.Agarwal wrote: >Students like me found it easier to score in Hindi/Sanskrit Srutalekha >sessions ... because the Devanagari script is more phonetic. That is well known, however things are not as easy as depicted here. As long as there is diversity in the pronunciation of Sanskrit within the subcontinent you need spelling, as already shown by Ashok Aklujar in the old quote from Shabara. For example, if R. Banerjee calls his colleague from Poona by her first name, zoTTi (short o, i), she won't answer -- as she is used to be called zakti (never mind the long i). Our as long as V. Agarwal or his relatives go to i'skuul together with some i'strii's and (or to his sa'kuul in the Panjab) you need to spell s-c-h-o-o-l, and sakaara, takaara, etc. "Middle Indians" from Gujarat and Mahrastra to Orissa and Andhra rather pray to Krushna (and occasionally spell his name that way, kruSNa) while Dilli/UP-wallas prefer Krishna (kriSNa) or even later forms. And living in Nepal, I would not call my son egyavalke (yajnavalkya) or my daughter sawa (zobhaa). Some areas (Tamil Nadu, Kashmir, Bengal!) are so divergent that even the great V. Raghavan lauded the singing of 'beautiful folk songs' by Kashmiri Pandit boys -- when they thought they had nicely recited some Veda verses for him and his Skt. Commission... In areas with extreme diversion of pronunciation, such as Kashmir, one even has regular nicknames for individual aksaras, see Grierson in JRAS 1916. How else could they distinguish between a bhaTTa, a Mr. Butt, or a true bata? MW. >----Original Message Follows---- >From: Rajarshi Banerjee >There is no notion of spelling or spelling bees in hindi or sanskrit as it >exists in english. saying the syllales aloud would just amount to saying the >word slowly. ================ Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 2289 bytes Desc: not available URL: From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Feb 28 17:19:35 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 12:19:35 -0500 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056142.23782.14973921741691060991.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In spite of Madhav's cooling breeze from a himavad-iriNeza-pradeza, I am afraid I have to add, even after some weeks' reflection, some hot breeze from a slightly warmer haridvaara in kaamasetu, matsyacuuSasetu. For, an Indian scientist friend of mine has drawn my attention to a troubling report in INDIA ABROAD, January 21, 2000, hidden away on the OPINION page. http://www.indiaabroadonline.com/PublicAccess/ia012100/Opinion/ConcernExpressed. html Since this concerns *many* of the subjects we work on, it might be interesting to list members, -- especially since it comes in the wake of the recent news stories that Dominik has drawn attention to (Council of Social Science and Historical Research, University Grants Commission, Indira Gandhi Center). I merely quote a few 'gems' and leave out all acronyms. The story begins: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Concern expressed about plans to alter history books (By PRAFUL BIDWAI) If Murli Manohar Joshi, the Union Human Resources Development Minister, has his way, Indian children will grow up believing that "Bharatiya culture," ... is the sole influence that has always shaped India. This basically "Hindu" culture ... has remained unchanged since time immemorial. All other influences and traditions are "impure," alien, not part of India's "heritage." .... * There was no contradiction between Hinduism and Buddhism .... ((cf. , incidentally: (Reuters) - A key figure in India's ... government provoked outrage among Buddhist scholars Friday by asserting that Buddhism merely represented India's ancient Aryan traditions with a "new emphasis." "Buddha did not announce any new religion. He was only restating with a new emphasis the ancient ideals of the Indo-Aryan civilizations," Home Minister L.K. Advani said in a speech at Sarnath in northern India. ---- See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2556965151-bd6 )) * Indians are "a race." Furthermore, they have "a mission" and "destiny" as a race. (ever heard that before???) * It is "a fundamental postulate of Hindu thought that every way of life has its own contribution to make..." But "the ultimate reality" is defined by Krishna alone. * The "spirit of Bharat" is dharma, "the ultimate source of all values." The best description of dharma is found in the "Manusmriti." * In ancient times, "Bharat excelled in every branch of Science... Our sages realized reality lying in every sphere of life." All of them were Hindu. These ideas form the core of the "Discussion Papers" now being prepared by the principal institutions that draw up school curriculum .... All future textbook writers must conform to these standards. ... (The writer is a political commentator) =========================================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 3278 bytes Desc: not available URL: From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 28 20:21:05 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 12:21:05 -0800 Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence Message-ID: <161227056158.23782.1017844603825283787.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Prof. R. Banerjee wrote: [..] > Archery is a stone age invention and would not have >dazzled anyone. Archery was probably invented by hunter gatherers to kill >birds and other game. Tribals in India surely used things like bows and >arrows. Archery is old, but I am told archers on chariots in India is post-1700 BCE. [..] > India could have had a subset of IE speakers at an >early stage. If there was an IE homeland in central asia, nothing would >prevent migrants from settling in places in western India or pakistan at >early dates, After all it was warm, less arid, there was more game and there >were more animals to domesticate. The indian branch may have split from PIE >at a really early stage. IE spread to europe would be slower due to less >hospitable conditions. "IE speakers at an early stage" in India. How early? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From LubinT at MADISON.ACAD.WLU.EDU Mon Feb 28 12:22:09 2000 From: LubinT at MADISON.ACAD.WLU.EDU (Tim Lubin) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 12:22:09 +0000 Subject: XI WSC -- set to go, I presume Message-ID: <161227056144.23782.15455406995523983367.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> With regard to the XI World Sanskrit Conference, as far as I know it is certainly happening -- anyway I am supposed to present a paper there (on text-historical issues in editing the Atharva"siras Upani.sad), and I have a room through the conference housing. They have replied to all my postal and electronic correspondance, and although they were a bit slow to get underway, I have no reason to suppose it will not happen. But I hope I am not going to be the only person to show up!? The address cesme at tin.it has worked fine for me. Housing is being arranged through: Hotel Reservation Convention Bureau Torino: hotelres at hotelres.it They did say (on Jan. 31) that the schedule of papers was not yet complete (and they announced that it would be distributed only at the start of the conference. I hope to see others there! Tim ____________________________________ Timothy Lubin Assistant Professor Department of Religion Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 463-8146 (off.), 463-8055 (home), 463-8498 (fax) LUBIN.T at WLU.EDU Homepage: http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/TLubin.html From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Feb 28 18:09:25 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 13:09:25 -0500 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056151.23782.5727141163943512427.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> There is such a thing as standard accentless sanskrit or hindi devoid of colloqialisms with only minor variations. A school educated urban hindi speaker has a standard accentless pronunciation including bengalis from calcutta. sakUl is for the hicks and hardly mainstream. Please listen to newsreaders.. MW> For example, if R. Banerjee calls his colleague from Poona by her first name, zoTTi (short o, i), she won't answer -- as she is used to be called zakti (never mind the long i). zoTTI would actually be satya or truth shakti would be pronounced as shoktI. not shoTTI. Bongs hardly ever use short vowels, their short vowels sound longish. Bengalis are at an extreme in the way they warp sanskrit sounds. the short a is taboo in bengali and is replaecd by O or AU depending on context and subconscious rules. regards R. Banerjee From Sfauthor at AOL.COM Mon Feb 28 20:51:00 2000 From: Sfauthor at AOL.COM (Brian Akers) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 15:51:00 -0500 Subject: 1918 Flu Discussion Revisited Message-ID: <161227056161.23782.1950516144802344951.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Gina Bari Kolata, a science writer for the New York Times, was interviewed on C-SPAN's Booknotes program last night. She has a new book out with a very long title, "Flu : The Story of the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 and the Search for the Virus That Caused It." She said that recent scholarship keeps raising the estimate of the number of people killed by the 1918 influenza pandemic. Latest estimates are as high as 100 million deaths, with 20 million of those taking place in the Indian subcontinent. Brian From malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU Tue Feb 29 00:59:51 2000 From: malaiya at CS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Yashwant Malaiya) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 17:59:51 -0700 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056167.23782.16502759330898184393.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It should incidentally be noted that some of the words in the quote are by PRAFUL BIDWAI himself. It is he who is writing "The best description of dharma is found in the "Manusmriti." and "All of them were Hindu." I too perhaps would disagree with some of the historical views of the Hindutva-vadi politicians. But a criticism ought to be fair. I personally see nothing wrong with saying that "The "spirit of Bharat" is dharma" or "Bharat excelled in every branch of Science". There is often a view that the final and accurate version of history and its interpretation has been found. It is dangerous for history to get "settled". It ought to be stirred up time to time. A lot of historians, specially in India, are writing history based on what other historians just before them have written. They have not bothered to go back to original sources or have tried new points of view. A lot of history students in India today are incapable of going to the original sources because all their education has been in English and that is the only language they are comfortable in. Many of India's future historians will come from them. Perhaps most. A lot (if not an overwhelming majority) of newspaper reporters too are a product of an all-English education. They write that "a Jain city was found under Fatehpur-Sikri" or "Roop Kanwar revived the practice of Sati". They would have known more had they researched their stories better by consulting Hindi sources also. Certainly all attempts to present a biased version of history should be subject to criticism. Those who engage in doing that ought to do a fair job. In Bengal a whole generation has grown up using Marxist text-books. I frequently see Bengalis mentioning that Buddhist institutions in Bihar/Bengal were destroyed by "Hindus". Apparently that is what they have been taught. It is specially sad since some of the best Indian historians at one time were from Bengal. Yashwant From: Michael Witzel For, an Indian scientist friend of mine has drawn my attention to a troubling report in INDIA ABROAD, January 21, 2000, hidden away on the OPINION page. http://www.indiaabroadonline.com/PublicAccess/ia012100/Opinion/ConcernExpressed.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Concern expressed about plans to alter history books (By PRAFUL BIDWAI) If Murli Manohar Joshi, the Union Human Resources Development Minister, has his way, Indian ..... * The "spirit of Bharat" is dharma, "the ultimate source of all values." The best description of dharma is found in the "Manusmriti." ..... * In ancient times, "Bharat excelled in every branch of Science... Our sages realized reality lying in every sphere of life." All of them were Hindu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM Mon Feb 28 23:42:53 2000 From: rajarshi.banerjee at SMGINC.COM (Rajarshi Banerjee) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 18:42:53 -0500 Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence Message-ID: <161227056163.23782.11421486902556520985.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> SM> Archery is old, but I am told archers on chariots in India is post-1700 BCE. RB> I believe there is no evidence of chaiots but just horses in India e.g. baluchistan around 1700 BC. Is there an archeological trace of chariots in India? Ofcourse they are found in egypt, mesopotamia, syria and turkey from around this time but what about India? Did they all rot? What about iconography? SM> "IE speakers at an early stage" in India. How early? It is unatural to assume that PIE suddenly appeared in complete isolation. There must have been ancetors, neighbouring languages, daughter languages through out its history. India's oldest attested IE language has voiced aspirates, retroflexion, geminates,.. which are fairly well entrenched but not found in most other IE languages. This might indicate a long period of isolated development within India. SOme harappans might have spoken it. I would hardly swear byit but it is as good a conjecture as any. regards R. Banerjee regards R banerjee From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 29 03:54:28 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 19:54:28 -0800 Subject: Brahma: in chanting Message-ID: <161227056173.23782.16651263573086561298.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> The pronounciation of Brahma as Bramha is a classical case of how a 'mispronounciation' attains legitmacy because of tradition. Refer the relevant chapters of following popular work to get a good overview of the effect of local pronounciations on the recitations of the different extant recensions of the Vedas, the role of the Laksana granthas in according legitmacy to divergences from the 'correct' pronounciations and the correspondence between the rules recorded in the various Prasakhyas, siksas and other laksana texts and their respective areas of provenance: Hindu Dharma; (Paramacharya) Chandrasekharendra Saraswati; Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan; 1995 Dr. Witzel has also written several articles to highlight the effect of local pronounciations on the text tradition of AVP (O), AVP (Z), Kathaka YV and so on. See his webpage for detailed references. Numerous other articles exist. The recent posts on the pronounciation of Anusvara in the Taittiriya Samhita are also connected to your enquiry. Note that while I pronounce it as 'gum' (since that is the way I learnt it), most North Indian Pundits also pronounce it as 'dhvam' while reciting mantras from SYV during grhyakarmani (and this is the way I started till I changed it to 'gum'). Vishal ----Original Message Follows---- From: Krishna Kalale Subject: Brahma: in chanting Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:00:13 -0800 For example why is Brahma written in sanskrit like brah-ma rather than bram-ha. it is usually pronounced as bram-ha even in vedic chants. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 29 04:33:22 2000 From: vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM (Vishal Agarwal) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 20:33:22 -0800 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056175.23782.14985372011466059428.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----Original Message Follows---- From: Shrisha Rao Subject: Re: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:56:44 -0600 However, I must add that Praful Bidwai isn't the most credible person one could find to write a proper rebuttal. He has no credentials as a historian, and his bilious comments might actually have the opposite effect VA: Praful Bidwai is a hardcore self professed Marxist political commentator who has appeared in TV discussions and wrote profusely in the Times of India and communist publications like the Frontline magazine as a 'secular Intellectual' and a 'historian'. He has an inveterate hatred for BJP etc., and has opposed the Nuclear Program of India with vengeance, which is not surprising because he lives off a hefty grant from a European green organization. I used to cut his articles regularly and save them. Some gems from him in TOI: (paraphrasing from memory) 1. The Sangh Parivar patronised the Ram temple agitation but left out the Krishma Janmabhoomi and Kashi Visvanath shrines because Rama was a high caste Kshatriya while Krishna is an OBC and Shiva an ST (kirata) 2. The Bharata Ekatma yatra of Murli Manohar Joshi left a bloodbath in Kerala and has strained the communal atmosphere there. (The TOI published his article containing these words on its editorial page A DAY BEFORE the yatra actually ENTERED Kerala) 3. In another article in the TOI, he chastized Mulayam Singh for being lenient despite the fact that his police killed a score (official figure, I have seen 55 obituaries with addresses and photographs of victims) of 'Karsewaks' at Ayodhya. An irate reader wrote to the TOI asking if Bidwai wanted more people to be killed to satisfy his 'secular' beliefs. 4. In another article, he suggested that OBC's, SC/ST, Muslims and Christians and other minorities should form a 'Secular Brigade' to resist, even with violence, the 'communal, hindutva' brigade of Upper Caste Hindus. Others, who write in the same vein, are: Amulya Ganguli, Anikendra Nath Sen, Seema Mustafa, Achin Vachnaik, Shabana Azmi, Anil Dharker, Badri Raina, D N Jha......As for their credentials as historians, please read 'Eminent Historians'by Arun Shourie. It is a pity that ill informed Western Academicians are so easily mislead! This is my last post on this topic. Vishal ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 29 04:36:33 2000 From: milton_degeorge at HOTMAIL.COM (milton degeorge) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 00 20:36:33 -0800 Subject: Retroflex and Boghazkoy. Message-ID: <161227056177.23782.2408526050319846967.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Hello list members, I have recently heard of the discovery of Sanskrit words in the remains of the Hittite capital of Boghazkoy. Being interested in what the words were and their characters, where might I find reports on the findings? Could it be that some of the words contain characters that are later associated with retroflex sounds? Wouldn't that be something? Milton DeGeorge Jr. Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia University of Wisconsin-Madison E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbj at VSNL.COM Mon Feb 28 19:00:53 2000 From: mbj at VSNL.COM (Mahendra Jain) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 00:30:53 +0530 Subject: Qn. Bengal/Maharashtra Govt. policy Message-ID: <161227056155.23782.5411106939359846339.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Please remove my name from list, as I am un able to cope with so many messages ----- Original Message ----- From: Prasad Velusamy To: Sent: 28 February 2000 23:10 Subject: Qn. Bengal/Maharashtra Govt. policy > While browsing on the web, I came across the following article. > Is another vernacular language spreading in India as in the EC? > Have Maharashtra and Bengal reversed their earlier positions, > and make English compulsory? > > Thanks for the info, > Prasad > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > English rises again as India's power language > By Robert Marquand, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor > Thursday, February 10, 2000 > http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/02/09/text/p1s4.html > > After a decade-long "Indianization" to teach regional languages in > the schools - and remove British-era names of streets and places > (Bombay is now Mumbai, Calcutta is Kolkata) - a middle-class > consensus to spread the learning of English is emerging. For 50 > years, English has been a language of privilege, but today it must > become a more common vernacular, say intellectuals, business > executives, and parents alike. > > [snipped] > > "If we wish to be a global cyberpower, if we want a larger share of > the world markets, if we want greater political relevance ... we > could start out with a crash program to promote English, not Hindi," > argues Shekar Gupta, editor of India's largest newspaper, The Indian > Express. He points out that among the more prosperous populations of > East Asia, English is becoming a compulsory second language. > > [snipped] > > Acknowledging these realities, in December the government of > Maharashtra, whose capital is Bombay, announced compulsory English > lessons for all students from grade 6 onward. The move, like a > similar one in West Bengal two years ago, reverses a policy of the > early 1990s to teach only the local Marathi and Bengali languages > in schools. Parents in Bombay were a major part of the lobbying > effort to change the system. > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From rchawla at DELLNET.COM Tue Feb 29 08:33:57 2000 From: rchawla at DELLNET.COM (Ravi Chawla) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 00:33:57 -0800 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056180.23782.3405966759669721700.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> ----- Original Message ----- From: Vishal Agarwal > 1. The Sangh Parivar patronised the Ram temple agitation but left out the > Krishma Janmabhoomi and Kashi Visvanath shrines because Rama was a high > caste Kshatriya while Krishna is an OBC and Shiva an ST (kirata) > In connection with the above statement, I have a question from the leadership of the Sangh Parivar, and also from other Indian and Western scholars: Was Rama ( the deity behind the Ram temple controversy) a real human 'being' with real flesh and blood, or only a mythical figure of Indian scriptures? What about Krishna? And, as per the scriptures, how many years did pass between the appearance of Rama in Ayudhya and Krishna in Mathura or Brindavan? I now believe that Ram was only a mythical figure. I will like to hear from those people who believe that Rama really lived in a human form in India, and some historical facts, if any, to prove that. I thank the persons who will care to answer this in advance. Regards, R.Chawla From venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Feb 29 12:05:41 2000 From: venkatraman_iyer at HOTMAIL.COM (Venkatraman Iyer) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 04:05:41 -0800 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056193.23782.11632394714311109795.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >"Middle Indians" from Gujarat and Mahrastra to Orissa and Andhra rather >pray to Krushna (and occasionally spell his name that way, kruSNa) while >Dilli/UP-wallas prefer Krishna (kriSNa) or even later >forms. Indologists, Interestingly, Tamil also uses kirushNan/kiruTTiNan for kRSNa. Is kRSNa = black, an Indo-Aryan word? Or, does it have a relation to tamil karu/karuppu/karumai = black? Sincerely, V. Iyer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 29 12:55:22 2000 From: lsrinivas at YAHOO.COM (Lakshmi Srinivas) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 04:55:22 -0800 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056199.23782.6639606510275050829.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> --- Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Others, who write in the same vein, are: Amulya > Ganguli, Anikendra Nath Sen, > Seema Mustafa, Achin Vachnaik, Shabana Azmi, Anil > Dharker, Badri Raina, D N > Jha......As for their credentials as historians, > please read 'Eminent > Historians'by Arun Shourie. D.N. Jha is a Professor of History in Delhi University. He's a student of Professor R.S. Sharma, former professor in Delhi Univ and and the first Chairman of the Indian Council of Historical Research. D.N. Jha writes in the RS Sharma festschrift (Society and Ideology in India. Essays in honour of Prof R S Sharma, Mushiram Manoharlal, New Delhi, 1996) QUOTE Professor Sharma's zeal in fighting the obscurantist, revivalist and communal approach to history is best seen in his role in the recent controversy centering around Ayodhya. His Communal History and Rama's Ayodhya (1990, rev 1992) exposes the hollowness of the claims of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and successfully unmasks the political design behind their arguments which has led to the obfuscation of Indian archaeology and history. END QUOTE Prof DN Jha, an anti communalist scholar, is a professional historian with many publications to his credit. As somebody asked on another list: for Ram's sake what has Arun Shourie, an investigative journalist turned BJP politician, got to do with Indian history? Perhaps the presumption is that it is sufficient to be a Hindu to be able to write on Indian history. In electronic forums, I keep coming across lists of names of scholars, professionals in their field, whose writings are to be avoided. An alternate list of writers is provided who are typically journalists, pamphleteers, rabble rousers and the like. Mr Agarwal's post is no exception to this trend. Is this perhaps a new kind of 'denial of service' attack? Warm Regards, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM Tue Feb 29 14:41:26 2000 From: smadhuresan at YAHOO.COM (Swaminathan Madhuresan) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 06:41:26 -0800 Subject: AIT, NEW genetic evidence Message-ID: <161227056204.23782.8593622664852599262.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> >>Archery is old, but I am told archers on chariots in India is >>post-1700 BCE. RB> I believe there is no evidence of chaiots but just horses in India RB>e.g. baluchistan around 1700 BC. Is there an archeological trace of RB>chariots in India? Ofcourse they are found in egypt, mesopotamia, RB>syria and turkey from around this time but what about India? Did RB>they all rot? What about iconography? Texts speak of chariots in India. Sparreboom, Chariots in the Veda. Barbarian tides, Timeframe 1500-600 BC, Time-Life books, p.129 has a caption for a picture. "The bow ruins the enemy's pleasure; with the bow let us conquer all the corners of the world.... Once shot, fly far away, arrow, sharpened with prayer. Go straight to our foes, and do not leave a single one of them there. - from the Rig Veda." Is the Archery in the Vedas analyzed anywhere? RB>It is unatural to assume that PIE suddenly appeared in complete RB>isolation. There must have been ancetors, neighbouring languages, RB>daughter languages through out its history. India's oldest attested RB>IE language has voiced aspirates, retroflexion, geminates,.. which RB>are fairly well entrenched but not found in most other IE languages. RB>This might indicate a long period of isolated development within RB>India. SOme harappans might have spoken it. I would hardly swear byit RB>but it is as good a conjecture as any. Are you talking of the 19th c. guess that PIE home is India? Regards, SM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH Tue Feb 29 06:58:15 2000 From: sybil.kruegel at THEOL.UNIBE.CH (Sybil Kruegel) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 07:58:15 +0100 Subject: Retroflex and Boghazkoy. Message-ID: <161227056184.23782.9939845115882625885.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Mr. Degeorge, Please see: -Paul Thieme, The Aryan Gods of the Mitanni Treaties, Journal of the Ancient Oriental Society 80. -Manfred Mayrhofer: Die Arier im Vorderen Orient-ein Mythos -A. Kammenhuber on the Kikkuli-Texts (horse training) Sincerely, S. Kruegel milton degeorge schrieb: > > Hello list members, > > I have recently heard of the discovery of Sanskrit words in the remains of > the Hittite capital of Boghazkoy. Being interested in what the words were > and their characters, where might I find reports on the findings? Could it > be that some of the words contain characters that are later associated with > retroflex sounds? Wouldn't that be something? > > Milton DeGeorge Jr. > Dept. of Languages and Cultures of Asia > University of Wisconsin-Madison > E-mail: milton_degeorge at hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET Tue Feb 29 03:22:40 2000 From: xacobad at WILNETONLINE.NET (Francis Parmar, S. J.) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 08:52:40 +0530 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056170.23782.6554845349102756161.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> History books are certainly being altered and a number of citizens are concerned about this. KHOJ has taken up this issue and does quite a creditable job. KHOJ has a web site: http://www.sabrang.com The e-mail address is mailto:sabrang at bom2.vsnl.net.in Parmar, SJ ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Witzel To: INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 10:49 PM Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks In spite of Madhav's cooling breeze from a himavad-iriNeza-pradeza, I am afraid I have to add, even after some weeks' reflection, some hot breeze from a slightly warmer haridvaara in kaamasetu, matsyacuuSasetu. For, an Indian scientist friend of mine has drawn my attention to a troubling report in INDIA ABROAD, January 21, 2000, hidden away on the OPINION page. http://www.indiaabroadonline.com/PublicAccess/ia012100/Opinion/ConcernExpressed.html Since this concerns *many* of the subjects we work on, it might be interesting to list members, -- especially since it comes in the wake of the recent news stories that Dominik has drawn attention to (Council of Social Science and Historical Research, University Grants Commission, Indira Gandhi Center). I merely quote a few 'gems' and leave out all acronyms. The story begins: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Concern expressed about plans to alter history books (By PRAFUL BIDWAI) If Murli Manohar Joshi, the Union Human Resources Development Minister, has his way, Indian children will grow up believing that "Bharatiya culture," ... is the sole influence that has always shaped India. This basically "Hindu" culture ... has remained unchanged since time immemorial. All other influences and traditions are "impure," alien, not part of India's "heritage." ..... * There was no contradiction between Hinduism and Buddhism .... ((cf. , incidentally: (Reuters) - A key figure in India's ... government provoked outrage among Buddhist scholars Friday by asserting that Buddhism merely represented India's ancient Aryan traditions with a "new emphasis." "Buddha did not announce any new religion. He was only restating with a new emphasis the ancient ideals of the Indo-Aryan civilizations," Home Minister L.K. Advani said in a speech at Sarnath in northern India. ---- See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2556965151-bd6 )) * Indians are "a race." Furthermore, they have "a mission" and "destiny" as a race. (ever heard that before???) * It is "a fundamental postulate of Hindu thought that every way of life has its own contribution to make..." But "the ultimate reality" is defined by Krishna alone. * The "spirit of Bharat" is dharma, "the ultimate source of all values." The best description of dharma is found in the "Manusmriti." * In ancient times, "Bharat excelled in every branch of Science... Our sages realized reality lying in every sphere of life." All of them were Hindu. These ideas form the core of the "Discussion Papers" now being prepared by the principal institutions that draw up school curriculum .... All future textbook writers must conform to these standards. .... (The writer is a political commentator) =========================================================================== Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP Tue Feb 29 00:05:22 2000 From: yanom at KSUVX0.KYOTO-SU.AC.JP (Michio Yano) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 09:05:22 +0900 Subject: pancanga Message-ID: <161227056165.23782.3790380518401502575.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Dear Indologists, Let me announce that the pancanga program based on the Suryasiddhanta is now excutable at my homepage: http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~yanom/pancanga This is a perl version of the same program that was put at my ftp site several years ago. The results of the two programs are not exactly identical, but as far as the dating is concerned, the difference is not very significant. Please remember that this program was written for the purpose of dating historical documents. Michio Yano yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp February 29, 2000 From jrgardn at EMORY.EDU Tue Feb 29 14:29:05 2000 From: jrgardn at EMORY.EDU (John Robert Gardner) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 09:29:05 -0500 Subject: Evils of Written Vedas? (apology for cross-posting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056202.23782.5279825114984511645.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> My kind thanks to everyone for the multi-faceted responses to this query. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-= John Robert Gardner ATLA-CERTR Emory University ------------------------------------------------------------ http://vedavid.org/diss/ "If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do, begin it. In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . " -Goethe From witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Tue Feb 29 15:19:52 2000 From: witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Michael Witzel) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 10:19:52 -0500 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <161227056208.23782.7055954107944403454.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> It is amusing, and entirely expected, to see how the messenger (PB) is beaten, not the message.... In my original message I intentionally included INDIA ABROAD's last line: that PB "is a political commentator". His severe comments were excised from my 'gem' quotes... Read the full story at: http://www.indiaabroadonline.com/PublicAccess/ia012100/Opinion/ConcernExpressed. html Perhaps the respondents, members of the usual list of suspects, did/do not realize that they supply abundant material for a future study of the Indian post-colonial, and emerging nationalistic set of mind. So it is worth saving these letters after all... The message is, of course, the steadily increasing proliferation of politically motivated, enforced changes by Govt. in culture and science ... Politicians everywhere (ultimately, futilely so far) strive for mind control, to quote a case for balance: Don Davis on the RISA list: (Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:51:55 ) "... the ruling Communist Party of Kerala ... tried to censor a book by A. Sreedhara Menon called ... Freedom Struggle in Kerala. Menon is a respected general historian of Kerala .... the day he submitted the manuscript, he received an official letter from the State Gov't informing him that he would have to work with a committee of people, all party members, including the grand old man of Kerala communism, E.M.S. Namboothiripad. ... Menon published the letter in the Kerala press ... Eventually, Menon withdrew his submission and DC Books published his book independently. " ((NB: Remember how the COMMUNIST PARTY OF KERALA saved 11 goats' lives at the great 1975 Agnicayana? Everything for a raise in popularity -- even, using religious sentiments! )) Still, the saga continues, no wonder after the resecent changes at ICHR: Following is a copy of a letter sent to the Prime Minister by university faculty members in Delhi: "The latest order from the ICHR directing the Oxford University Press to stop midway the publication of two volumes on the freedom struggle by two of India's leading historians, Prof. Sumit Sarkar and Prof. K.N. Panikkar, has shocked the academic community in the capital. .... ...the typescripts were in press when the Oxford University Press received the letter directing it to suspend production of the two volumes and return them to the ICHR for review. ... ... it appears that the letter was written bypassing even the ICHR and at the behest of the HRD Ministry... We, the teachers of the four universities of Delhi, strongly protest against this despicable attack on freedom of scholarship and urge you to direct the ICHR to immediately retract its order to stop publication of these two volumes." Which *western academicians* are misled here? Looking forward to... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Witzel Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies Harvard University www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my direct line (also for messages) : 617- 496 2990 home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Michael Witzel Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University 2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138 ph. 617-496 2990 (also messages) home page: www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies: www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attachment.bin Type: text/enriched Size: 3564 bytes Desc: not available URL: From abbas at IOPB.RES.IN Tue Feb 29 06:21:26 2000 From: abbas at IOPB.RES.IN (Samar Abbas) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 11:51:26 +0530 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks In-Reply-To: <20000229043322.8358.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <161227056182.23782.3627576992897468109.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Ravi Chawla wrote : > I will like to hear from those people who believe that Rama really > lived in a human form in and some historical facts to prove that. There are several facts indicating that Rama was a historical figure which are summarised in these sites by the Dalit and *** schools http://dalitstan.org/books/bibai/bibai3.html (see the appendix also) http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu_home/1994_2/msg00026.html http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/ramayan/rama_vartak.html http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1994/msg00582.html Although vague, the Ramayana and Mahabharata probably indicate some form of history. Remember that Asoka was at one time also considered `mythical' before the discovery of his inscriptions. Besides, there are no other historical sources for the period. On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Vishal Agarwal wrote: > Others, who write in the same vein, are: Seema Mustafa ... Shabana Azmi, > ... As for their credentials as historians, please read 'Eminent > Historians'by Arun Shourie. As for Pandit Arun Shourie et al's credentials as historians, and with more entertaining `gems' from *** history books, see the article published in Dalitstan Journal - `Hindutva Historical Fraud' by M.Munda and N.Taneja, http://dalitstan.org/journal/politics/hindutva/hh_fraud.html Samar From payilly at WANADOO.FR Tue Feb 29 13:31:53 2000 From: payilly at WANADOO.FR (pam) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 14:31:53 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit Spelling Message-ID: <161227056195.23782.989618435799089482.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> In the "Bengali Language Handbook" by P.S.Ray, M.A. Hai and L. Ray (Center for Applied Linguistics, 1966) you will find on pages 17-19 a number of sanskrit spellings as used for the teaching of Bengali (for instance "hm"=hoymophola). The general system, however, is not explained. P.A. Meyer ---------- >De?: Stephen Hodge >? : INDOLOGY at LISTSERV.LIV.AC.UK >Objet?: Sanskrit Spelling >Date?: Dim 27 f?v 2000 17:47 > >I womder if anybody knows about Sanskrit "spelling". What I mean is, >how would Sanskrit words traditionally be spelt out aloud. Perhaps >such exists but it is never mentioned in any of the standard Western >grammars of Sanskrit. Some subscribers may know of the Tibetan >method where each element is spelt out and pronounced cumulatively. I >am wondering if this was a native Tibetan innovation or had Indian >antecedents. > >Best wishes, >Stephen Hodge From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Feb 29 09:39:58 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 15:09:58 +0530 Subject: Brahma: in chanting Message-ID: <161227056187.23782.8680632707379791316.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Krishna Kalale wrote: > > I thought that sanskrit is phonetic - ie. you speak as you write unlike > english ( which has silent letters and difference in pronunciation > depending on the words letters are used). > > For example why is Brahma written in sanskrit like brah-ma rather than > bram-ha. it is usually pronounced as bram-ha even in vedic chants. This > makes the language less phonetic. > for example this is the case in most gita verses : bramharparnam bramha > havih bramhagnau brahmhana hutam.... > > Krishna Kalale If someone is heard chanting brahma as bramha, then either the listner or one who chants is wrong. Is should not be and is not chanted as bramha. The way such words are written in Devangari is similar for other compound sounds also, like ghna kle etc. etc. -- Himanshu From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Feb 29 09:57:04 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 15:27:04 +0530 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056189.23782.16867846775354288113.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Shrisha Rao wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Michael Witzel wrote: > > > For, an Indian scientist friend of mine has drawn my attention to a > > troubling report in INDIA ABROAD, January 21, 2000, hidden away on the > > OPINION page. > > I read the article with some interest, but find little that would be > troubling. Not because I agree with the ludicrous ideas expressed by > Joshi, et al., but because such ideas will inevitably die on the vine. > > However, I must add that Praful Bidwai isn't the most credible person one > could find to write a proper rebuttal. He has no credentials as a > historian, and his bilious comments might actually have the opposite > effect from what is evidently his intention. Specifically, it is to be > recognized that pride in Indian-ness is a socially, or perhaps even > historically, legitimate sentiment in Indian minds, and to deny this > outright would doubtless do more to legitimize extreme nationalism. > > Regards, > > Shrisha Rao > > > Michael Witzel Thank you, Shrisha Rao, for putting it properly. -- Himanshu From hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN Tue Feb 29 10:58:20 2000 From: hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN (H.B.Dave) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 00 16:28:20 +0530 Subject: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks Message-ID: <161227056190.23782.3218139249699434141.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Vishal Agarwal wrote: > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Shrisha Rao > Subject: Re: 'INDIA ABROAD' on new textbooks > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:56:44 -0600 > However, I must add that Praful Bidwai isn't the most credible person one > could find to write a proper rebuttal. He has no credentials as a > historian, and his bilious comments might actually have the opposite > effect > > VA: Praful Bidwai is a hardcore self professed Marxist political commentator > who has appeared in TV discussions and wrote profusely in the Times of India > and communist publications like the Frontline magazine as a 'secular > Intellectual' and a 'historian'. He has an inveterate hatred for BJP etc., > and has opposed the Nuclear Program of India with vengeance, which is not > surprising because he lives off a hefty grant from a European green > organization. I used to cut his articles regularly and save them. Some gems > from him in TOI: (paraphrasing from memory) > 1. The Sangh Parivar patronised the Ram temple agitation but left out the > Krishma Janmabhoomi and Kashi Visvanath shrines because Rama was a high > caste Kshatriya while Krishna is an OBC and Shiva an ST (kirata) > 2. The Bharata Ekatma yatra of Murli Manohar Joshi left a bloodbath in > Kerala and has strained the communal atmosphere there. (The TOI published > his article containing these words on its editorial page A DAY BEFORE the > yatra actually ENTERED Kerala) > 3. In another article in the TOI, he chastized Mulayam Singh for being > lenient despite the fact that his police killed a score (official figure, I > have seen 55 obituaries with addresses and photographs of victims) of > 'Karsewaks' at Ayodhya. An irate reader wrote to the TOI asking if Bidwai > wanted more people to be killed to satisfy his 'secular' beliefs. > 4. In another article, he suggested that OBC's, SC/ST, Muslims and > Christians and other minorities should form a 'Secular Brigade' to resist, > even with violence, the 'communal, hindutva' brigade of Upper Caste Hindus. > > Others, who write in the same vein, are: Amulya Ganguli, Anikendra Nath Sen, > Seema Mustafa, Achin Vachnaik, Shabana Azmi, Anil Dharker, Badri Raina, D N > Jha......As for their credentials as historians, please read 'Eminent > Historians'by Arun Shourie. > > It is a pity that ill informed Western Academicians are so easily mislead! > This is my last post on this topic. > > Vishal > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com May be the last, but thank you for putting it up, especially to Western Academicians. -- Himanshu -- ============================================ Prof. H.B. Dave Co-ordinator for Institutional Development and Professor & Head of Department Computer Engineering Dharmsinh Desai Institute of Technology College Road NADIAD 387001 (Gujarat) India Tel : (O) +91 268 60502 (R) +91 268 61025 FAX : +91 268 60501 e-mail : hbd at ddit.ernet.in ============================================ From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Feb 29 23:19:53 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 00 00:19:53 +0100 Subject: Brahma: in chanting Message-ID: <161227056211.23782.8984517300993672584.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Am 28 Feb 00 um 19:54 schrieb Vishal Agarwal: > The pronounciation of Brahma as Bramha is a classical case of how > a 'mispronounciation' attains legitmacy because of tradition. [...] As an anecdote, I can add the similar case of a pundit in Mysore who pooh-poohed me for my Western ignorance and insisted that the names 'Prahlaada' and 'Baahliika' are to be pronounced 'Pralhaada' and 'Baalhiika'. However, when two weeks later a famous indigenous scholar visited the same institute and in the course of a conversation ridiculed the "idiots" who say things like "braamha.na", "Pralhaada" and "Baalhiika", nobody, including my critic, said anything, but all just sat with delighted smiles. The visiting scholar argued just as I had done; but I suppose he had the right caste. I found it reassuring that the present state of a tradition is not necessarily considered the final word. RZ From sambodhi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN Tue Feb 29 18:59:40 2000 From: sambodhi at AD1.VSNL.NET.IN (Mr. Jitendra B. Shah) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 00 00:29:40 +0530 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <161227056229.23782.17858010258505585818.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> Date : 28-2-2000 A sad demise of Prof. Dalsukhbhai Malvania, a, Scholar and Legend of Indian Philosophy and Jain Religion Prof. Dalsukhbhai malvania has completed his journey on this earth and passed away in the early morning of 28th Feb.-2000 at his residence in Ahmedabad. He was 90 years old. He was a Legendary, and a scholar of Vedic, Buddha, and Jaina Philosophy. He had edited old scriptures of Buddha philosophy and edited and published many scriptures of Jaina philosophy. The Grantha like Nyayavatar Vartik Vritti, and Praman Mimamsa are considered to be an ideal ones. The translation of Gandharvad and its scholarly preface is his scholatic evidence. He started his career as Professor in Banaras Hindu University at Varanasi and with Pt. Sukhlalji, edited and translated several Granthas there. He lend his active co-operation in the establishment of Parshwanath Vidyashram, Jain Sanskruti Vidya mandal and Prakrut Text Society at Kashi and by doing various activities, became basic foundation stone for the study of Jaina philosophy. Afterwards, he was appointed as Director of Lalbhai Dalpatbhai Vidya Mandir at Ahmedabad, remained on the same post till retirement and during his tenure at this institution, he was instrumental in achieving international fame to this institution by his service in the fields of Teachings, Research, and editing of Indian Philosophy, Religion and Indolgoy. He had presented several scholatie articles in the conferences held in and out side the country. During his life-span he had written about 200 articles and guided several scholars towards obtaining Ph. D. degree. There is an end of traditional Pandit era of a principal stream line of Indian philosophy in his death. Jitendrabhai B. Shah (Director of L. D. Indology) From zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE Tue Feb 29 23:40:29 2000 From: zydenbos at BIGFOOT.DE (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 00 00:40:29 +0100 Subject: Sanskrit homework from Snowy Michigan Message-ID: <161227056214.23782.2899942675955812618.generated@prod2.harmonylists.io> 28 Feb 00, 6:58 Swantham alikhat: > Namoo namah, > Bhavadbhih yallikhitam tatra 'asmaakam varaan dadaati' ityatra > asmaakam ityasya sthaanee asmabhyam ityaava'syakam.Daa dhatooh > prayoogee sviikartaa caturthiivibhaktyaam bhavati. Dhanyavaadah > Mahesvarah Bhavataa yat suucita.m tat samyag eva; ki.mtu tad "asmaakam" iti ;sabdo na sviikart.rsuucakatvena likhita.h. "Asmaabhir v.rtaan vaa yaacitaan vaa varaan" iti na sundaram iti matvaa naivam alikham. Vi;svasaniiya.h, RZ